Among America's many curious norms, the notion that we as a society cannot somehow have a frank discussion about the perils of unprepared parenting may be the most vexing. We seem, always, to begin the conversation by just assuming everyone is entitled to have children and that, once here, the society is duty-bound to accommodate these crippled families. I never had kids because I knew I couldn't afford them. It really was that simple. I saw what my sainted WWII-generation parents went through to support our family, and I could plainly deduce from that experience that only people capable of the very difficult self-sacrifice necessary should have kids. I also figured out at a young age that wanting to have a baby is a dramatically different thing than wanting to raise kids. But in this country, we refuse to condemn or counsel young people on the serious consequences of having babies. I suppose our idiotic evangelical bent has something to do with it, but it seems high time, to me, that we stop pretending everyone should just have children no matter their circumstances. Time to get very focused, in junior high and high school, on teaching students about this critically important life choice and how it must be avoided at all costs until such time as they are grown up enough to handle such enormous responsibility.
62
I put myself through college and law school in the 1970's (still a fairly unusual thing for a young woman to do), and didn't start a family until I had worked over a decade in the legal profession. I very well understand those who believe they should not have to "subsidize" others' parenting choices. That said, would these commenters remark similarly if the "lead" parents interviewed in this story had been men?
14
The authors don't address is key question in their article-where will the money and/or resources come from to provide these supports? Academia in the United States for the most part, is set up for those 17/18 year old students that are coming from high school. Day care-$1500 annually? Have the authors paid child care expenses recently? Universities get money from tuition (just one source, but still) and increasing tuition to provide day care certainly will not fly. I graduated from undergrad in the 1980's; I can't believe the types of support systems that are in place in today's colleges and universities. Not to mention the costs of compliance for things like Title IX.
This is the reason for-profit universities have been able to grow (and they cost more than most public universities and other private colleges.) Seen those slick commercials telling people they can provide the education and support for older, working students that are juggling full time work and family obligations? When was the last time you saw a commercial or advertisement from a non-profit university appealing to the older student?
This is the reason for-profit universities have been able to grow (and they cost more than most public universities and other private colleges.) Seen those slick commercials telling people they can provide the education and support for older, working students that are juggling full time work and family obligations? When was the last time you saw a commercial or advertisement from a non-profit university appealing to the older student?
8
"There’s one big obstacle standing in the way of working parents getting these quality jobs: a college degree." As with so many facile discussions of college and the workforce, the statement assumes a static level of college attendance relative to available white-collar jobs. But that assumption is fallacious. As more people pursue college degrees, the value of a college degree declines -- if not plummets. Meanwhile, white collar jobs are being outsourced, downsized, deskilled, and converted to temporary status. And the cost of college has skyrocketed, largely to cover amenties like fancy dorms, cafeterias and gyms. With kids or without, young adults should think twice before taking on debt to pursue increasingly devalued degrees. I have told my own kids that remaining debt-free will be a precondition of my support for their college educations, should they choose to pursue college. Though I have a Ph.D., I believe they should only pursue college if they have a specific occupation in mind that requires a college degree. Otherwise they will get more valuable life experience by working for a living, contributing to society and earning their own keep as young adults.
8
There is more than one 'big obstacle standing the the way of working parents getting quality jobs'. Access to affordable health care, reliable transportation, stable work schedules, flexible child-care, long-term job stability (jumping from job to job is hard for a family), affordable and reliable elder care. All these things can limit a working parents ability to find and keep a 'quality job'.
Going to school is a full time job - a family is a full time job - taking care of parents can be a full time job - finding a job is a full time job - a full time job is a full time job. Asking working parents to try and balance all these demands on their time is patently unreasonable.
Colleges simply can not be held fully accountable for providing all the support that working parents may need in order to finish their degrees on time and on budget. Our local, state and federal governments could be fantastic supports for everything from providing low cost/high quality child care to fast and efficient public transit. Not to mention fair wage and labor standards that would ensure that people who play by the rules and work hard have a fair chance to better their station in life.
I'm pretty sure that the "party of limited government" is not going to help with these social projects, so if we want to see change in these areas we need to vote for politicians who want to make government work for us (even if that means increasing its size), because colleges can only do so much.
Going to school is a full time job - a family is a full time job - taking care of parents can be a full time job - finding a job is a full time job - a full time job is a full time job. Asking working parents to try and balance all these demands on their time is patently unreasonable.
Colleges simply can not be held fully accountable for providing all the support that working parents may need in order to finish their degrees on time and on budget. Our local, state and federal governments could be fantastic supports for everything from providing low cost/high quality child care to fast and efficient public transit. Not to mention fair wage and labor standards that would ensure that people who play by the rules and work hard have a fair chance to better their station in life.
I'm pretty sure that the "party of limited government" is not going to help with these social projects, so if we want to see change in these areas we need to vote for politicians who want to make government work for us (even if that means increasing its size), because colleges can only do so much.
13
Were the outcomes of 40-something college students without children considered? At that age returning to college after a 20 year absence from formal education is not a cakewalk for anybody.
7
I am a liberal and I think helping people succeed benefits all. However I am against the policy of using my tax dollars to support irresponsible people who cannot put off parenthood till a time they are able to support a family.
I am seeing single mothers with 5 -6 children and from multiple fathers who depend on aid from government . I agree with republican people that aid to such irresponsible individuals needs to be stopped
I am seeing single mothers with 5 -6 children and from multiple fathers who depend on aid from government . I agree with republican people that aid to such irresponsible individuals needs to be stopped
32
I went to graduate school 50 years ago with a baby. My husband, also a graduate student, and I transferred the baby in her buggy between classes. What would have been helpful are today's labor-saving devices, like dishwashers and microwaves. There weren't even disposable diapers, and we certainly didn't have a personal washer & dryer. In fact, we didn't even have a car. Education of the parents is the most important influence on a child, and I encourage and commend all parents today who are pursuing theirs. You will see its value 50 years later when your children--and grandchildren--all assume that education is the basis of a satisfying life.
7
Having a child is a volitional act, not magic or circumstance. It's not my or anyone else's place to subsidize this.
College done properly requires time.
Being a good parent takes time.
Work takes time.
Sleep takes time.
Social life takes time.
2 of these are doable easily. 3, and you're into choices. 4, somethings gotta give.
College done properly requires time.
Being a good parent takes time.
Work takes time.
Sleep takes time.
Social life takes time.
2 of these are doable easily. 3, and you're into choices. 4, somethings gotta give.
26
How about the policy of the US Naval Academy with respect to having a child? A pregnant midshipman can either resign or take a leave of absence. They can return from the leave only if they can prove they have NO dependents or parental responsibilities anymore. This also applies to male midshipmen - they can have no parental responsibilities or dependents.
12
Let's see....
Pressure colleges to provide more stuff to a specific class of students automatically results in higher prices for all students - Sorry Jamie and Anne-Marie, there is no such thing as a free lunch. This will increase the student debt you have revealed as part of the burden placed upon student-parents as graduates. Yeah, sounds like a great idea.
Pressure colleges to provide more stuff to a specific class of students automatically results in higher prices for all students - Sorry Jamie and Anne-Marie, there is no such thing as a free lunch. This will increase the student debt you have revealed as part of the burden placed upon student-parents as graduates. Yeah, sounds like a great idea.
14
What about the young people who don't have children before going to college although growing up where such is the norm? What do they get for their forbearance? They don't get the attention or support awarded to one who can carry an adorable child who may or may not be neglected. Perhaps more resources should go to the nonparents.
29
It sounds like the author is suggesting that higher education should be an extension of High School, with the Federal Government acting as parents.
Higher Education should start with an expectation of Higher Standards, Higher Effort, Higher Accountability. I know a lot of people that got through school with kids, albeit the mother didn't always get her degree. But I know those same people 10-15 years in and they have stable families, good jobs (dad works, mom might), and in many cases still live like they're college students on a budget.
If you're going to college it's best to do it as a committed adult. Take a core major that'll land you a soul-killing job that pays well, and take a few extra classes to expand you mind. Don't party all the time. Don't blow your money. Don't attend a school you can't afford.
Study like you're trying to get out of prison, because you are.
Higher Education should start with an expectation of Higher Standards, Higher Effort, Higher Accountability. I know a lot of people that got through school with kids, albeit the mother didn't always get her degree. But I know those same people 10-15 years in and they have stable families, good jobs (dad works, mom might), and in many cases still live like they're college students on a budget.
If you're going to college it's best to do it as a committed adult. Take a core major that'll land you a soul-killing job that pays well, and take a few extra classes to expand you mind. Don't party all the time. Don't blow your money. Don't attend a school you can't afford.
Study like you're trying to get out of prison, because you are.
16
I went to college and professional school with kids. I also had (and still have) an awesome and supportive wife. I worked full time and waited until the kids went to bed to start studying. We made it work, but it was a sacrifice. My kids are now in college taking a more traditional route but they've expressed appreciation for what their mom and I were able to get done. But let me say this, my kids (3 of them then) weren't an impediment, they were an inspiration. I knew I was using precious family resources in pursuit of something that would help our family later, so dropping out or scaling back wasn't an option for me. I routinely took 9-12 hours per semester undergrad, and full course loads in grad school, I just was up until 1 am, or up a 3 am, to ensure I could meet my family's needs and those of my employer. My motto is "Pay the Price To Be Successful." There is no other way.
25
There were many veterans who, after WWII, worked and attended school nights in order to obtain a university degree. My father was one such person - the first, and until myself and my siblings, the only person in his family ever to attend, let alone graduate from college. He worked full time and took extra jobs on the weekend to pay for his education while my mother read his books and created outlines for him to study at lunch and on his coffee breaks. This was done while they raised a family of six children (a seventh would arrive two years after he graduated) during the eight years it took to earn the degree. Along the way, my parents instilled in us the notion that nothing worthwhile comes easy; that if one desires something, one cannot sit back and expect someone to hand that to one. One lesson my siblings and I took from this is not to start a family (or even marry) until we had earned our undergraduate and graduate degrees.
9
There seems to be a heavy degree of cognitive dissonance going on in the "Comments" section.
People think parents who want to go to college are on the government dole, are irresponsible, and are looking for handouts. They don't want their tax dollars going to "them".
Let me remind you that parents who are enrolling in college are doing so with the hopes that they can earn enough to support their family WITHOUT government assistance. Higher education remains one of the most proven pathways for economic mobility in our nation. We face a choice in whether we support those who are ready, willing, and able OR we can thwart those efforts and keep more children and families in poverty (where your tax dollars will still go to support them). So I'd encourage all of the "birth control-ers" in this Comments section to think about who they deem worthy of support.
Let me also add that we're not going to close the skills gap by sending every 18 year old to college, either. So at some point (if we want to continue our growth and remain competitive as a nation) we'll need to find a way to support older students who want to earn a degree (or credential or certificate or trade...) regardless of whether they're single, parents, empty nest-ers, etc. The reality is that education is no longer something to be done prior to starting a family or when you're 18-22 years old but will be required all along the 40+ years of working life.
People think parents who want to go to college are on the government dole, are irresponsible, and are looking for handouts. They don't want their tax dollars going to "them".
Let me remind you that parents who are enrolling in college are doing so with the hopes that they can earn enough to support their family WITHOUT government assistance. Higher education remains one of the most proven pathways for economic mobility in our nation. We face a choice in whether we support those who are ready, willing, and able OR we can thwart those efforts and keep more children and families in poverty (where your tax dollars will still go to support them). So I'd encourage all of the "birth control-ers" in this Comments section to think about who they deem worthy of support.
Let me also add that we're not going to close the skills gap by sending every 18 year old to college, either. So at some point (if we want to continue our growth and remain competitive as a nation) we'll need to find a way to support older students who want to earn a degree (or credential or certificate or trade...) regardless of whether they're single, parents, empty nest-ers, etc. The reality is that education is no longer something to be done prior to starting a family or when you're 18-22 years old but will be required all along the 40+ years of working life.
21
"The reality is that education is no longer something to be done prior to starting a family"
why, WHY shouldn't it be the case that you should complete your education PRIOR to having a family. Not doing so is a very poor choice. Worse is subsidizing your poor choice by showering you with tax dollars because you made a poor choice. Econ 101 will tell you that subsidizing poor choices with government money only leads to more of the poor choice making behavior. I just don't see your logic that I need as a taxpayer to subsidize another's poor choices.
why, WHY shouldn't it be the case that you should complete your education PRIOR to having a family. Not doing so is a very poor choice. Worse is subsidizing your poor choice by showering you with tax dollars because you made a poor choice. Econ 101 will tell you that subsidizing poor choices with government money only leads to more of the poor choice making behavior. I just don't see your logic that I need as a taxpayer to subsidize another's poor choices.
27
So the taxpayer subsidizes the parents in other ways -- because without a college education, the parent will probably not have a living wage job, and will need to be subsidized in some way.
8
I grew up in poverty where making babies was a career track for over half of the young women around me. It's easier and more pleasurable to have unprotected sex than it is to study chemistry, algebra, and read To Kill A Mockingbird. We bathed in an ethos where they learned a baby provided government benefits, lodging, health care and a purpose.
Our welfare policies incentivize low income women to procreate. We should bolster the incentivizes for low income and childless young women who pursue job training and education; you know, rewarding those who showcase self-control and make mature decisions. Making it easier on young moms sends a signal that out-of-wedlock births are a gravy train.
Our welfare policies incentivize low income women to procreate. We should bolster the incentivizes for low income and childless young women who pursue job training and education; you know, rewarding those who showcase self-control and make mature decisions. Making it easier on young moms sends a signal that out-of-wedlock births are a gravy train.
40
Let us be clear, when Hillary Clinton offers to spend millions of dollars to help College Students with kids or this or that or any other interest group, she is talking about spending taxpayer money. The taxpayers are busy saving money to send their own children to college and have different priorities than Hillary, which is to win elections. This also begs the question that do we need more college graduates if the lot being currently graduated are working in jobs that don't require college degrees. Academia touts the benefits of college, which is limited to a few majors with credential requirements such as Pharmacists, Teachers or Nurses and ignores the general experience of recent college graduates who graduate with a lot of debt and a degree of questionable value.
15
At the core of the student loan debt crisis is the false assumption that all degrees are valuable and that all students Have the skills to benefit from college. What are these students studying and why do they expect a degree to help them?
The article does allude to the fact that we have poor family support systems in jobs that do not require college degrees. Let's be realistic and start there.
The article does allude to the fact that we have poor family support systems in jobs that do not require college degrees. Let's be realistic and start there.
6
What I am seeing more and more of is babies or toddlers in custody of their
grandparent(s). Because most likely the parent(s) are too young, off the rails with substance abuse or imprisoned. Many of these grandparents are as young as 40 or less. So this all looks like a generational thing.
Same goes with the college educated. Generationally, one is most likely to follow the same path as their parents. The parents with degrees send their children on to higher education. The ones without do not. The not so good part is that the college educated only have one maybe two children. Whereas the non-college bound more than often have many more. So the outcome is a tipping of the scales in favor of the least educated resulting in, for lack of a better term, the dumbing down of America. The people with the least are having the most amount of children is not a favorable trend. Hate to say this but recent immigrants add to this disproportionately too.
grandparent(s). Because most likely the parent(s) are too young, off the rails with substance abuse or imprisoned. Many of these grandparents are as young as 40 or less. So this all looks like a generational thing.
Same goes with the college educated. Generationally, one is most likely to follow the same path as their parents. The parents with degrees send their children on to higher education. The ones without do not. The not so good part is that the college educated only have one maybe two children. Whereas the non-college bound more than often have many more. So the outcome is a tipping of the scales in favor of the least educated resulting in, for lack of a better term, the dumbing down of America. The people with the least are having the most amount of children is not a favorable trend. Hate to say this but recent immigrants add to this disproportionately too.
19
And yet again I am going to have to say no to using my tax dollars to bail others out because they did not think through their DECISION to have kid or kids. It is not my problem that you had a kid that makes it difficult/impossible to better your life. I had many relationships before and during college/law school where If I wasn't careful I could have ended up having a kid, but I had enough foresight to see BEYOND the twenty minutes of pleasure and used proper precautions to make sure it didn't happen. I'm not knocking your decision to have a kid at 19, but I will be darned If I want to pay for it. Actions have consequences and If I bought twice the home I could afford or decided to go to a for profit college I would neither expect an offer from Uncle Sam to help me out nor would I accept said offer, personal responsibility folks.
22
OK, the point is well-made, but the statistics are misleading. Look at the statistics of how many students don't finish college (minus the babies) and it's a similar problem, related to income (either their own or their parents), e.g., do the parents help with tuition? It used to be much easier to live in relative poverty and go to college, with food stamps, available financial aid, cheap rent, and higher wages for part-time work. Not anymore. Add a baby to the mix, and unless there is money coming from somewhere, school is a luxury.
8
I doubt someone lacking the foresight and sense of responsibility not to get pregnant in the first place would ever be successful in a white collar job. Birth control is so available and so cheap (and in some cases, only requires thinking about every three years) that unplanned pregnancy is almost an oxymoron.
14
Endicott College in Beverly, Massachusetts began an internship program for students many decades ago. For the past several years they've instituted a program for single parents with children where they live in housing on campus. The parent who strives to continue his/her studies has the opportunity to do so and the child/children are enrolled in local schools. The program is unique -- the single parent must have begun college, had good grades and a desire to continue. President Wiley wanted to extend the program but the rules and regulations prevented him fro, expanding it.
The living spaces for single parents with kids are wonderful. All seem healthy with a joyful attitude.
The living spaces for single parents with kids are wonderful. All seem healthy with a joyful attitude.
15
"There are 4.8 million undergraduates raising children ".
How many millions of high school students are there with kids?
How many high school drop outs are there because they are parents?
As a school psychologist in New York City I witnessed far too much of this.
The damage done, particularly for 15 and 16 year old children, is often irreparable.
How many millions of high school students are there with kids?
How many high school drop outs are there because they are parents?
As a school psychologist in New York City I witnessed far too much of this.
The damage done, particularly for 15 and 16 year old children, is often irreparable.
18
As a former adjunct professor at a large metropolitan university I can say with confidence that at least half of college students have no business being in a higher education setting. For some it's just a continuation of their carefree high school days of socializing and partying and postponing the dreaded day when they will have to go out in the Real World and earn a living. For many, it's the lure of free money like Pell Grants which they pocket and then drop out and for even more, a category which includes the previous two groups mentioned, it's an abysmal lack of basic competency skills.
A lack which would have disqualified them had they been citizens of those countries which take higher education seriously and require competency testing before admittance.
A lack which would have disqualified them had they been citizens of those countries which take higher education seriously and require competency testing before admittance.
40
The dropout rate is 50%. The 'Tailgate States' and commuter directional universities know very well they're admitting thousands of freshman every fall that have no chance to finish. From top to bottom it's an exploitative con. Then we get article after article about student loan debt; well, half of the slackers would have 1/3 to 1/4 the debt if they goofed off at a local community college instead of going away to a $400 per credit hour university and paying $15,000 per year for a dorm room.
8
Before I paid off my house my payments (incl taxes, and this in an affluent area that sends a majority of high school grads to elite state schools & the ivy league) didn't total half of $15K per year. And I'm within 25 min drive of two prestigious regional schools and several good community colleges. Anyone who goes into debt for "the dorm experience" is too dumb to be in college in the first place.
3
The big issue with community colleges isn't whether students do or don't have children. Many, even most, students at community colleges have been so poorly prepared in K-12, it is highly unlikely they will succeed in college no matter what their circumstances.
California has a 112 campus community college system, enrolling a full 25% of all the CC students in the country. This system has absolutely no entrance requirements. They don't care what courses an applicant took in high school, what grades were received. They don't even require graduation from high school.
So, surprise, these CC's get students who couldn't do well in high school, so will never do well in college either. And they drop out.
The last time to get a good K-12 education is in the K-12 years. All the effort and cost to push unprepared kids into college are completely misplaced.
California has a 112 campus community college system, enrolling a full 25% of all the CC students in the country. This system has absolutely no entrance requirements. They don't care what courses an applicant took in high school, what grades were received. They don't even require graduation from high school.
So, surprise, these CC's get students who couldn't do well in high school, so will never do well in college either. And they drop out.
The last time to get a good K-12 education is in the K-12 years. All the effort and cost to push unprepared kids into college are completely misplaced.
30
Moreover, if these aspiring college students were not introduced to books prior to kindergarten, it is pretty much over for them. The children who were never read to prior to school continue to get further and further behind their "read-to" peers, so that by 4th grade they rarely catch up in their reading skills and knowledge acquisition. Of course, there are exceptions, but ....
4
add to that the rip off student loan situation and the exaggerated tuition and other college costs, its a wonder any women or men raising kids make it thru college, they should get a medal along with their diplomas !!
4
$1,500 is a nice thought, but only a modest beginning on the cost. Life is competititve, and takes all you've got and more. Education is an investment no one can take away from you. We have 3 teenagers, and I am going back for Saturday only classes. No way can you do it with a baby in the house, unless family is watching the little ones. Good luck! When you think of quitting school, just remember why you started, stay tough, and ignore the anxiety that comes with being a college student.
6
Young people who put off going to college until they know what they want in and from life are usually successful because they attend with purpose. College for all is not the answer because college degrees do not guarantee any job, much less a better one. One very good alternative could be national civil or military service when a person graduates from or leaves high school - no exceptions. They would have to serve in a community much different than the one in which they were raised and engage with people from all backgrounds. All draftees could choose military or civil/community service. One-half the entire military budget could be used to fund it so young people get life experience and have a roof, three meals and a few spending dollars while they grow up and expand their thinking. It is well worth considering.
8
A typical progressive who thinks that the primary function of the US military should be social engineering rather than national defense.
7
Yes, Charles, I'm glad to be a progressive. Not all kids want to learn how to kill other people.
9
Some of these parent/students are like the one in the story, 43 and married. Many, of course, never make it to parent /student, they get pregnant in h.s. or in college and never make it anywhere. While making society and the workplace parent friendly is important, much of the problem relates to not making it clear to young women ( and unfortunately it is often young women who pay the price of pregnancy) that they really need to get an education, and get established before taking on pregnancy and parenthood. It doesn't speak well of men that they are often not involved, but the fact is, empowering women thru education and employment prior to taking on kids is the key to almost all of societies and the worlds problems. We should be making birth control and education available so that an already tough part of life is made potentially less tenuous. They added side benefit is that older parents often make better choices and need less societal support.
11
It's not clear how many of the 4.8 million cited in this article are in the 18-24 range or older adults. For the former, I have no sympathy. The quickest route to poverty in America is having a baby while young without a stable partner and a stable income. Women are especially vulnerable because there are too many "boys" without integrity or honor. Unfortunately, women need to insure safe sex so that they are not left in the trap described in the article. For the "boys", where are the courts?
25
If someone needs a college to "help" with scheduling, money management and time priorities, that person is pretty much doomed career-wise. The lack of a degree is the least of their problems.
43
You have to wonder how we have ended up here. I do believes that as a society we have misled the younger generation to find their passion and not delay getting what they want. Need something, use your credit card to get it now. You see a college degree that fits your passion, sign up borrow money, and pay no attention to what you may earn and if you graduate.
Society and families have contributed to this disconnect and colleges have done little to guide families and students regarding the facts about college, earnings and careers.
Also so many community college students are unprepared when they enter college, you have to wonder what is going wrong in the K-12
Society and families have contributed to this disconnect and colleges have done little to guide families and students regarding the facts about college, earnings and careers.
Also so many community college students are unprepared when they enter college, you have to wonder what is going wrong in the K-12
15
In K-12, education "reformers" (who are really privateers) first need to label public schools as failing based on test results (the privateers write the tests, which are designed to fail most kids). Step 2 is offering charter schools (funded by tax dollars) to replace the failing public school (which allows the charter operator to skim off as much as they want and call it their salary).
So K-12 has become all about prepping kids to pass a test that's designed to fail most of them (the politicians help the charters out by punishing and closing schools who "fail").
No child is learning much, but the Gates/Broads/Waltons/TFA/Pearson Testing are all getting really, really rich.
So K-12 has become all about prepping kids to pass a test that's designed to fail most of them (the politicians help the charters out by punishing and closing schools who "fail").
No child is learning much, but the Gates/Broads/Waltons/TFA/Pearson Testing are all getting really, really rich.
8
Look, I'm sorry but there comes a point at which you have to decide whether raising your family or going to school is the higher priority. the role of government is not to allow you to do whatever you want; it is to make it so it is possible to do some of what you want, based on your own prioritization. I categorically reject the notion of paying taxes to support people who very clearly bit off more than they could chew and are going to the government for help. In all honesty if you can't handle it with the myriad of options available today then you shouldn't be there, period
24
Life is difficult for most everyone -- whether they are attending college or not. Because of Globalization and population growth, salaries have shrunk along with tax revenues. At this point, there simply are no longer the public resources to support the people who cannot or will not support themselves and the life choices they made. In other words people are going to have to set priorities which are painful and quite difficult. There are people who manage to complete a college education and raise children. It can be done.
15
Federal Tax revenues for fiscal year 2015 were a record of $3.2 trillion, up from $2.2 trillion in 2010 (in 2009 dollars) .
State tax revenues rose to $794.6 billion in fiscal 2012 ( most recent data I could find), a record-high that represents a 13 percent increase from 2010 totals, not adjusting for inflation.
I think the question we need to ask is how are spending all this money in addition to what we borrow?
Yes salaries have been slow growing but the benefits costs that employers still provide and government subsidies that are available are never included in the value that workers get.
I thought that the Simpson Bowles proposal provided a great framework to understand what is really happening not how we feel.
State tax revenues rose to $794.6 billion in fiscal 2012 ( most recent data I could find), a record-high that represents a 13 percent increase from 2010 totals, not adjusting for inflation.
I think the question we need to ask is how are spending all this money in addition to what we borrow?
Yes salaries have been slow growing but the benefits costs that employers still provide and government subsidies that are available are never included in the value that workers get.
I thought that the Simpson Bowles proposal provided a great framework to understand what is really happening not how we feel.
Just give them other people's money. The left's solution to everything. More dependency equals more Democrat votes.
Sooner or later other people's money will run out. What will you do then?
Sooner or later other people's money will run out. What will you do then?
22
Yes, you can clearly see that happening in Europe, where the government, instead of pandering to corporations, offers health care, education, and day care to the general population. It must be true that 1) all those countries are running out of money, and 2) no one in Europe is working any more. That is surely the logical end of having a government for the people instead of for the corporations, right?
10
Schools are cheaper than jails. The real question here is why YOU expect the rest of us to pay for your moral posturing.
6
Dobes, you need to educate yourself about the unemployment rates (especially among youth), the tax rates and the economic disasters in these European utopias you cite.
Also - I would be OK with a system such as in Germany where the unfit for college are winnowed out early and directed to vocational programs. Would you be OK if that choice was made for your kid, by people outside your family? Because unlike Americans, they aren't into wasting college slots on people who can't cut it. And in Britain, the exams youths must pass to even the credentials to apply for college would make most American university students pale - and fail.
As to those generous maternity leaves - in England it's about $200 a week and few women take a whole year. In other countries using the leave definitely mommy-tracks one's career. Be sure to understand the full picture when you hold up exemplars of how the US "should" be.
Also - I would be OK with a system such as in Germany where the unfit for college are winnowed out early and directed to vocational programs. Would you be OK if that choice was made for your kid, by people outside your family? Because unlike Americans, they aren't into wasting college slots on people who can't cut it. And in Britain, the exams youths must pass to even the credentials to apply for college would make most American university students pale - and fail.
As to those generous maternity leaves - in England it's about $200 a week and few women take a whole year. In other countries using the leave definitely mommy-tracks one's career. Be sure to understand the full picture when you hold up exemplars of how the US "should" be.
11
Are we now to be treated to daily reporting about the various people who need "free" college or student loan debt forgiveness. And of course each is sprinkled with a few real people with real challenges to help make the point. Here's an idea. Let's have a story about some other real people. People who finished college by staying in state. Maybe commuting to school instead of room and board expense going away to school. Who worked part time during the school year and had a job during summers. Who graduated with little or no student loan debt because they were responsible. Heck, maybe some who are now part of the awful high income people in America and we'd like to now tax more heavily to help the rest get "free" college.
21
I'm not sure I agree with the suggestions outlined here.
For one, there's more people than just parents that need help managing the time commitment of education. A narrowly targeted, top-down, federal education subsidy for parents is inequitable at best. At worst, the idea encourages young persons to start families before they're ready. You want to give parents a break: reduce the tuition, debt burden, and interest rates for everyone. Maybe the youth would get to start families a little sooner.
For another matter, I appreciate the need for flexible schedules. However, not all educations are created equal. Rushing through an online homework assignment so you can cook dinner or give the kid a bath doesn't foster a very productive learning environment. There's something to be said for interacting with other students in a structured and focused way. Even with bad teachers, good students can make the difference.
Finally, one of my very first lessons in economics used college as an example of opportunity cost. The teacher's point: the cost of college is more than just tuition but also the time you could spend doing other things. As most adults know, time appreciates over time. The relative cost of a degree is much higher the longer you wait. A young high school graduate has fewer responsibilities than someone just a few years older. Sorry, that's the price you pay.
For one, there's more people than just parents that need help managing the time commitment of education. A narrowly targeted, top-down, federal education subsidy for parents is inequitable at best. At worst, the idea encourages young persons to start families before they're ready. You want to give parents a break: reduce the tuition, debt burden, and interest rates for everyone. Maybe the youth would get to start families a little sooner.
For another matter, I appreciate the need for flexible schedules. However, not all educations are created equal. Rushing through an online homework assignment so you can cook dinner or give the kid a bath doesn't foster a very productive learning environment. There's something to be said for interacting with other students in a structured and focused way. Even with bad teachers, good students can make the difference.
Finally, one of my very first lessons in economics used college as an example of opportunity cost. The teacher's point: the cost of college is more than just tuition but also the time you could spend doing other things. As most adults know, time appreciates over time. The relative cost of a degree is much higher the longer you wait. A young high school graduate has fewer responsibilities than someone just a few years older. Sorry, that's the price you pay.
9
When I taught at a Mississippi university I had several women students tell me they had children out of wedlock (even though they lived with the father) so they could get grants to go to college as a single parent. When the government creates a system that offers the poor an option, many will take it. We can't blame them for that.
14
I went to a women's college in the 1980s that had a specific program for returning students like those you profile that provided the assistance they needed. It benefitted me to have those older students in the classroom. More schools should have these programs.
But making it easier for "traditional" college age students to have children will do nothing but provide one more reason that it's OK to have a child you can't afford. Instead, we need to start doing everything we can to STOP teenagers and people in their early 20s who have the intellectual ability to get and benefit from a college degree from having kids they can't afford. It's that simple. I've seen it in my own family.
For young women, in particular, the lesson should be that it's a mistake that will ruin your life if you have a kid before you are in a stable, adult, financially prepared relationship. Making it easier for these kids to reproduce will just encourage them to do so, even though it's a huge mistake -- for them and for their children.
I find it ridiculous that we as a society don't do anything about the reality that having children you can't afford is the single biggest thing people can do to keep themselves -- and those children -- poor. Yes, it's sad to have to say that having children is something that should be limited to people with financial resources, at least at the time the child is born. But it's the truth.
But making it easier for "traditional" college age students to have children will do nothing but provide one more reason that it's OK to have a child you can't afford. Instead, we need to start doing everything we can to STOP teenagers and people in their early 20s who have the intellectual ability to get and benefit from a college degree from having kids they can't afford. It's that simple. I've seen it in my own family.
For young women, in particular, the lesson should be that it's a mistake that will ruin your life if you have a kid before you are in a stable, adult, financially prepared relationship. Making it easier for these kids to reproduce will just encourage them to do so, even though it's a huge mistake -- for them and for their children.
I find it ridiculous that we as a society don't do anything about the reality that having children you can't afford is the single biggest thing people can do to keep themselves -- and those children -- poor. Yes, it's sad to have to say that having children is something that should be limited to people with financial resources, at least at the time the child is born. But it's the truth.
53
The mindless "every babybee is a mirakul!" attitude, the giggling condoning of producing an additional human being simply because one has "baby rabies" or 'is broody" or wants one - regardless of the cost to society and the environment - is dooming humankind.
We need fewer perks for procreators, not more. The monumental choice to produce another human being on a planet teeming with them should be difficult and should be seen as the costly, self-indulgent luxury that it is, in the 21st century.
There is no way that everyone on earth now is going to ever, ever enjoy the jobs, environmental security, safety and standard of living of a middle-class American in the 20th century. The best we can do is stem the oncoming tide with realistic attitudes toward contraception, abortion and penalties rather than rewards for parenthood.
(Don't worry the species is not about to die out. But plenty more are doing so, every single day, thanks to us!)
We need fewer perks for procreators, not more. The monumental choice to produce another human being on a planet teeming with them should be difficult and should be seen as the costly, self-indulgent luxury that it is, in the 21st century.
There is no way that everyone on earth now is going to ever, ever enjoy the jobs, environmental security, safety and standard of living of a middle-class American in the 20th century. The best we can do is stem the oncoming tide with realistic attitudes toward contraception, abortion and penalties rather than rewards for parenthood.
(Don't worry the species is not about to die out. But plenty more are doing so, every single day, thanks to us!)
22
Kids need more public health education--teach them abstinence, teach them how to use birth control, teach them family planning, teach fathers how to support their children.
22
We can't.
1
Well, with the US Department of Education causing a Title IX sexual-assault awareness/prevention frenzy on campuses across the land, and with college administrators coddling students' fear of "micro aggressions" and setting up "safe spaces" for students who can't cope with ideas that differ from their own, good luck getting any time or resources from institutions of higher learning to support students with children.
While universities today administer several types of compliance programs because they or other institutions were found to have been violating the law in the past, they seem incapable of building programs proactively.
Your best bet is to find a lawyer who can find an existing law that schools are violating by not supporting students who are parents and sue a university in a test case that will provide visibility.
While universities today administer several types of compliance programs because they or other institutions were found to have been violating the law in the past, they seem incapable of building programs proactively.
Your best bet is to find a lawyer who can find an existing law that schools are violating by not supporting students who are parents and sue a university in a test case that will provide visibility.
5
Sure, let's continue the Liberal agenda of dumbing down everything in society to the lowest common denominator. For decades,parents with kids, single parents with kids, people working full-time jobs and having to take classes in the evening, all have successfully completed their degree by the combination of energy and ambition. But for the Clinton and Sanders crowd and their media spear-carriers, that's asking too much. Are we ever in trouble as a society with the rise of the Free Stuff generation.
24
All Sanders says is that public college should be free -- because a college education is needed for most jobs today that will pay a living wage. Other nations do it, why can't we? A small tax on Wall Street transactions can easily pay for it. Tax payers bailed out Wall Street; it's time for Wall Street to do something for the people.
6
GOP FAMILY VALUES All evidence points to the fact that the 1% are the identified beneficiaries of "trickle down, free market" policies, transferring wealth to the millionaires and billionaires who often pay less in taxes than people in the middle to upper middle classes. One of the most cynical and exploitive mechanisms of financial evil foisted by the GOP on the public has been predatory banking and financial practices that are the basis of the Great Recession, stagnation of wages, the housing bubble and the savings and loans bubble. Rather than supporting the ability of students to complete post-secondary studies, the predatory banks have given loans to students that will, in many cases, keep them enslaved to exorbitant interest payments for most of their productive years. I want the government to take over the student loan industry, including renegotiating the loans of students, like those of the failed Trump "University" so that they are not enslaved and can provide for their futures and those of their children. Also, there are free college level courses that will, sooner rather than later, be eligible for some college credit. Websites such as Coursera, Udacity and EdX offer such courses, many free for auditors, so that students can practice skills before paying for the courses online or attempting them in colleges and universities. Meanwhile, the US needs to become enlightened about the benefits of the social safety network to the 99%. The 1% pay more taxes!
4
I went to college at the age of 21, as a single mom with a 2 1/2-year old and 10-month-old children. Later, at 34 and now with a third child, I went to law school while working as well as raising the kids on my own. Both college and law school were state schools, and I still have an outstanding balance from my law school loans.
Although I still believe that getting an education was the best thing I ever did for my family and myself, it was the hardest and least supported. Many people will tell you to "get a job" instead of going to school - as if the kind of job you could get without an education would support your family! Professors often resent the time you must spend working or with your kids: one law school professor asked me if I thought I deserved special treatment because I had kids -- even though I had never asked for any! Then, when you finally make it through school, loan repayment schedules do not take into account how many people you are supporting on your post-school salary.
I was one of five single mothers in my first-year law school class, but I was the only one who made it to graduation. Surely that says something about how hard we make higher education for parents.
Although I still believe that getting an education was the best thing I ever did for my family and myself, it was the hardest and least supported. Many people will tell you to "get a job" instead of going to school - as if the kind of job you could get without an education would support your family! Professors often resent the time you must spend working or with your kids: one law school professor asked me if I thought I deserved special treatment because I had kids -- even though I had never asked for any! Then, when you finally make it through school, loan repayment schedules do not take into account how many people you are supporting on your post-school salary.
I was one of five single mothers in my first-year law school class, but I was the only one who made it to graduation. Surely that says something about how hard we make higher education for parents.
42
This is yet another article that reflects the fetishization of "marginal" communities in academia, and reflects just how far elite academics have drifted from the concerns of most of Americans. College is expensive for *everyone*, except the one-percenters. An important reason that college is expensive, is that a great deal of college expenditure is spent on adminstrative staff to support the wealthy (fancy gyms, counseling staff for drunken excess) and the indigent (first-generation counselors, deans for identity politics). Left in the lurch are all shades of the middle-class, stuck with a tab that grows at 5% each year.
21
If stories like this one don't make ya cynical nothing will. I don't read anything on the opinion pages without a perusing the authors c.v. first and one of the authors on this one is an absolute prize. This purpose of this piece is not about "enabling" young people with children in college- oh were it only as simple as that. This is a shill piece for a foundation worth a billion dollars paid for by Sallie Mae, you know those wonderful folks who impoverish college grads for a couple decades post graduation. This thing is absolutely shameful. Yeah make it easyer for more kids to go to college so we can sell more loans and employ more guys like the one that wrote this........so more kids with kids will take out loans they can't afford- rinse repeat ad nauseum. The Times is supposed to expose scams like this not propagate them.
5
Charter schools in the k-12 arena do the same thing: push self-enriching policies and legislation under the guise of helping kids--like "shouldn't all kids get the chance to take the SAT?" being pushed by people who sell the SAT.
2
When I was earning a computer engineering degree many of my fellow students were Asian immigrants: Indian, Chinese, Iranian, Malaysian. None of them were allowed to even date before they graduated from university. Not only did it prevent problems such as described in the article, but those kids were incredibly motivated to graduate.
60
Another request for my time or money to subsidize someone unable or unwilling to organize their life.
My wife and and I waited five years to have a child.
She already had a BS and I was an E-3 in the Navy for three more years. We spent those three years paying off what remained of her school debts. Upon discharge I thought I could get a chance to go to school. But with 14% mortgage rates under Carter I returned to my old employer so we could buy a house and get on with our lives.
Waiting and preparing meant we didn't ask others to subsidize us. We paid for child care out of pocket. Later my wife split a full time PT o with another with alternating biweekly schedules. she and her friend worked part time so we didn't have to have child care.
More and more people seem to be unable or unwilling to live their lives without imposing on others. Subsidize my child care/expenses? My housing? my health insurance? My food?
Life is choices. Make bad ones and you can increase your inconveniences and expenses. Why must others bail you out? Especially if they managed to get through life without asking others to do it for them.
My wife and and I waited five years to have a child.
She already had a BS and I was an E-3 in the Navy for three more years. We spent those three years paying off what remained of her school debts. Upon discharge I thought I could get a chance to go to school. But with 14% mortgage rates under Carter I returned to my old employer so we could buy a house and get on with our lives.
Waiting and preparing meant we didn't ask others to subsidize us. We paid for child care out of pocket. Later my wife split a full time PT o with another with alternating biweekly schedules. she and her friend worked part time so we didn't have to have child care.
More and more people seem to be unable or unwilling to live their lives without imposing on others. Subsidize my child care/expenses? My housing? my health insurance? My food?
Life is choices. Make bad ones and you can increase your inconveniences and expenses. Why must others bail you out? Especially if they managed to get through life without asking others to do it for them.
71
"My wife and and I waited five years to have a child.
She already had a BS and I was an E-3 in the Navy for three more years. "
I was an E-5 in the Navy back in the 1960s. It really annoyed me that an E-3 who worked under me and got his girlfriend pregnant, had to get married and then had another child received considerably more money than I did and also got to live off base while I had to live in a noisy, crowded barracks.
She already had a BS and I was an E-3 in the Navy for three more years. "
I was an E-5 in the Navy back in the 1960s. It really annoyed me that an E-3 who worked under me and got his girlfriend pregnant, had to get married and then had another child received considerably more money than I did and also got to live off base while I had to live in a noisy, crowded barracks.
4
I have worked at a community college for years, and we care very deeply about the success of our students, most of whom struggle in some way or another. We don't see the privileged student population here. We do everything we can to help our students who have children--we have daycare, flexible course scheduling, and instructors who teach because they prefer to teach rather than doing research. We have low tuition and have suffered funding losses at the state and county level. I take issue with the statement referring to community colleges (and for-profits, which are NOTHING like community colleges) 'Some are lured to these institutions by their flexibility and affordability, but too many colleges fail to provide the support students need to graduate.' We have incredible academic and nonacademic support services for our students, and are doing so much with the little funding available to us.
56
There are many for-profit colleges with better results than some community colleges. As to the low price, yes tuition at community colleges is low, but the actual cost is pretty high.
Each year state and local taxpayers provide $80 billion to public universities to fund their annual operating losses. That works out to about an average of $7.500 per student per year. So a community college tuition of say $4,000 translated into $11,500 cost per year.
The Delta Cost projected estimated that the cost of each two-year degree granted in the U.S. was over $46,000 and over $61,000 in New York.
I believe in and respect the community colleges system. It has a tough mission and is over burdened. I just believe we need to be truthful in our assessment and comments. The costs of public and private colleges (in general) have gotten much too high based upon the outcomes.
Each year state and local taxpayers provide $80 billion to public universities to fund their annual operating losses. That works out to about an average of $7.500 per student per year. So a community college tuition of say $4,000 translated into $11,500 cost per year.
The Delta Cost projected estimated that the cost of each two-year degree granted in the U.S. was over $46,000 and over $61,000 in New York.
I believe in and respect the community colleges system. It has a tough mission and is over burdened. I just believe we need to be truthful in our assessment and comments. The costs of public and private colleges (in general) have gotten much too high based upon the outcomes.
1
So it's one thing to get your degree going half time for eight years while raising kids, with a spouse to support the family. How many of these students are single parents? Our community colleges all should have huge amounts of day care and easy transportation. Free tuition is just a start. And don't get me started on those "online colleges" advertised directly to slackers on late night TV that offer a degree of dubious worth. These students think they can manage their time without the regular structure and support mechanisms of college, when they couldn't manage their time without kids and without monetary obligations when they were in high school. Online degrees are only for those who have already shown they can get an associate's or bachelor's degree in a regular program, and they just need to step up to a BS or masters.
8
So who pays for all the FREEBIES - the taxpayer not the person whose lifestyle choices put them in the situation in the first place.
Daycare and transportation cost money - social welfare costs money - are you willing to pay higher - 30% or more in taxes so the people who require social welfare can go to school?
Daycare and transportation cost money - social welfare costs money - are you willing to pay higher - 30% or more in taxes so the people who require social welfare can go to school?
6
The problem of children, education, jobs hits at all levels. I not only had my PhD before I had a child (just 1), I was through my postdoc years and was close enough to tenure that i knew i would get it.
That left me a distinctly older parent ... with problems "on the back end" I am dealing with today.
The reality of our times is that unless one inherits wealth, or has that incredibly-precious equivalent of strong trans-generational support, having children before one has completed one's education is fraught with failure and bad outcomes.
But guess what? Have a kid late and you won't be there (much) for their kid(s).
There's no good answer here except not having kids, and so many people are doing that, or having only one. This is perhaps good for our total population number -- the US is in fact far below ZPG except for immigration -- but it is only the wealthy or the poor who are having kids now -- it's not an affordable proposition for the middle class.
That left me a distinctly older parent ... with problems "on the back end" I am dealing with today.
The reality of our times is that unless one inherits wealth, or has that incredibly-precious equivalent of strong trans-generational support, having children before one has completed one's education is fraught with failure and bad outcomes.
But guess what? Have a kid late and you won't be there (much) for their kid(s).
There's no good answer here except not having kids, and so many people are doing that, or having only one. This is perhaps good for our total population number -- the US is in fact far below ZPG except for immigration -- but it is only the wealthy or the poor who are having kids now -- it's not an affordable proposition for the middle class.
42
How about also teaching financial literacy to high school students and their parents? Almost daily we are seeing articles about out of control student debt. Why? Because high schools are measured by how many of their graduates go to college, and their incentive is to get students into the best college, at any cost. College admissions administrators are charged with getting the best students admitted, regardless of their ability to pay. Right or wrong, no one is looking out for the financial interests of students and it is up to students and their parents to make the decision to take those loans. Clearly, they are making the wrong decision.
16
First, if Darwinism has any validity, humans will have children no matter how many forms of birth control they use. Nature will win. We need for humans to reproduce and maybe not entirely on our schedule. That being said, I see too many adult students forced into a rigid system, where they have to repeat or take courses they don't need. For instance, I teach writing and I get students forced to repeat freshman comp because they took it more than 5 years ago. That's ridiculous. I have taught the class for 30 years, kept up with all the trends, and essentially, I know nothing has changed. We should leave it up to the adult student to decide what classes they need to repeat. Too often, the need to fiill classes is put ahead the needs of the student or even basic common sense. This might be fine if education were priced as it was in the 1970s or adults had a choice about being in school. Many have to in order to keep their jobs. We need to go back to and validate vocational colleges and make them sensible.
7
First off the federal poverty line is ridiculously low for a family of 4 let alone a single person. It takes more than that to have a decent life almost everywhere in America. Second, colleges are overcharging students by quite a bit. It should not cost 250K or more for 4 years of undergrad or graduate work at any university. That amount is assuming that the graduate will earn a much better than average salary which, even if it's true, doesn't take into account paying off the loans, paying for decent housing, paying other bills, etc. College is becoming a luxury even as employers have made it a necessity.
We need to make sure that all our children start school ready to learn. Then we need to make sure that they can graduate ready to earn if they aren't interested in going to college. College is not the answer to every problem facing a person. There are many people who do not belong in college and who could benefit from a good vocational program instead of paying the high prices colleges charge nowadays.
We need to make sure that all our children start school ready to learn. Then we need to make sure that they can graduate ready to earn if they aren't interested in going to college. College is not the answer to every problem facing a person. There are many people who do not belong in college and who could benefit from a good vocational program instead of paying the high prices colleges charge nowadays.
8
The problem is that both of these issues drive each other -- college costs spiral out of control, because almost everyone now wishes to go, because it is the only path (or so they think) to a middle or upper class lifestyle. Also, schools and teachers and guidance counselors (all college educated) don't see any other paths for success except for college. THEY went, so you should go.
When everyone wants to go....the price can be whatever the seller wants, based on your desperation. So it goes up and up. Add to that, nearly unlimited ability to borrow money (thanks to the Feds), so that a working class kid can spend $300,000 to acquire a BA degree in "Gender Studies" or "Film Criticism". There is no mechanism to say "hey that's a stupid idea!" or "there are few if any jobs in that field!" Nobody EVER says "no". That is the problem.
We also insist on sending to college "everyone", which means every C and D student, every kid who hates school, and those who are not remotely prepared for college level work. This means that half of the kids who start college, never finish. (Baby sitting for their illegitimate welfare babies is not even remotely the problem, overstated wildly by this author.)
BTW: you'd be completely astonished to learn that you can live reasonably well just over the poverty line in most parts of the US (*the parts that are not big urban coastal cities), especially if you share housing and take the bus.
When everyone wants to go....the price can be whatever the seller wants, based on your desperation. So it goes up and up. Add to that, nearly unlimited ability to borrow money (thanks to the Feds), so that a working class kid can spend $300,000 to acquire a BA degree in "Gender Studies" or "Film Criticism". There is no mechanism to say "hey that's a stupid idea!" or "there are few if any jobs in that field!" Nobody EVER says "no". That is the problem.
We also insist on sending to college "everyone", which means every C and D student, every kid who hates school, and those who are not remotely prepared for college level work. This means that half of the kids who start college, never finish. (Baby sitting for their illegitimate welfare babies is not even remotely the problem, overstated wildly by this author.)
BTW: you'd be completely astonished to learn that you can live reasonably well just over the poverty line in most parts of the US (*the parts that are not big urban coastal cities), especially if you share housing and take the bus.
14
Concerned Citizen, you make some valid points. However, you'd be surprised to learn that people go to where the jobs are and, unfortunately where the jobs are (in areas like NY) is where the housing is unaffordable to all but the rich. The main reason housing is affordable in some areas is because there are no jobs and no demand. Think about that before you tell me where I should live. I'm living where the jobs are.
10
"college costs spiral out of control, because almost everyone now wishes to go, because it is the only path (or so they think) to a middle or upper class lifestyle."
It is generally accepted that an IQ of at least 110 is required to do college level work. That means that at least 55-60% of all high school graduates can not do college level work unless the courses are dumbed down to meet their lower IQ.
It is generally accepted that an IQ of at least 110 is required to do college level work. That means that at least 55-60% of all high school graduates can not do college level work unless the courses are dumbed down to meet their lower IQ.
7
I finished my degree in my thirties with three young children. It was grueling but doable, because my husband was employed in a good job and also willing to help at home. I worked part time to fund it, spent my evenings with the family until they went to sleep and studied from 9pm to 1am nightly. Looking back, it was really difficult, but I never worried I would go hungry and my children and I had a solid support system. I'm sure I could not have finished otherwise. I also ended up with a total of only $5000 in student loan debt, which is pretty much unheard of today.
12
I've taught undergraduates for 34 years, a few of whom have been "older," "mature" students returning for the college education they neglected or had to put aside in their youth. Every single time I have taught such students, many with children in tow, I've wished my "normal," "younger" students had even a tenth of their dedication, tenacity, insight, and grit. Assignments come in on time. Office hours are a joy. No book reference or suggestion for revision ever goes unheeded.
Colleges constantly complain about the stupidity of undergraduate social and sexual life. Here's the obvious solution: admissions and financial aid should privilege older students, including those with children, providing not only full scholarships but also serious child-care help, health-care, and family housing.
Only universities themselves, not the government, can afford to pull off this kind of assistance on a meaningful scale. And the benefit to the university would be immeasurable. Imagine classrooms in which a third or more of the students really understood the value of their education. With their children attending a local school or daycare, older students plunge into their lives as students with an enthusiasm few 18-year olds can equal.
High-school graduates may be ready to live on their own, but many are not ready for college. Let them work minimum wage, acquire some skills, learn to live on a budget. Let them head to college when they're wiser and more responsible.
Colleges constantly complain about the stupidity of undergraduate social and sexual life. Here's the obvious solution: admissions and financial aid should privilege older students, including those with children, providing not only full scholarships but also serious child-care help, health-care, and family housing.
Only universities themselves, not the government, can afford to pull off this kind of assistance on a meaningful scale. And the benefit to the university would be immeasurable. Imagine classrooms in which a third or more of the students really understood the value of their education. With their children attending a local school or daycare, older students plunge into their lives as students with an enthusiasm few 18-year olds can equal.
High-school graduates may be ready to live on their own, but many are not ready for college. Let them work minimum wage, acquire some skills, learn to live on a budget. Let them head to college when they're wiser and more responsible.
84
Have you considered that the reason you see low motivation among your younger college students might be that the talented ones go elsewhere so they avoid the the low dedication you see in your students?
8
Here is where a national service program would really be great. If we could take these kids away from their Friday night football, party high schools and make them work a year or two, both relieving them of study and educating them in a bit of the real world, they will be better prepared to buckle down and study when they are so privileged as to be able to attend college. Could be military service, or nursing homes and preschools reading to seniors or toddlers. Something where they both feel needed, and come to understand how hard life could be if you don't get some education.
17
I teach at a selective, expensive private school with a high post-graduate placement rate. Most of my "normal" undergrads are talented, motivated and hard-working, but there are plenty of binge-drinking time-wasters who are only in college because it's the expected thing to do. I would love to see *those* kids replaced by some hard-working older students who've had some life experience and who are better prepared for college than the immature time-wasters.
4
Let's add a few more positions for administrators in college to babysit people who in many cases don't need to be in college, adding even more "costs" to a product that is overpriced already that it's just stupid. Motivated people find a way to get things done even in difficult circumstances. Babysitting is part of the problem.
20
Where did we lose our belief that "it takes a village" to raise a child? We have always understood that society has an interest in building strong families and communities, and we invest in public education, publicly-funded playgrounds, soccer fields, and community pools. It has become almost impossible for middle class couples to have children and raise them without enormous sacrifice and taking on huge debt for education. People recognize that the government has a responsibility to support businesses by investing in infrastructure - roads, public transportation, services like police and firemen - and no one says, "Starting a business is a choice, don't do it if you can't pay for your own road in front of your store and hire your own police." Society supports the community, and the government has a role. The rest of the developed world seems to understand this much better than the U.S.
70
The Village got tired of being told "don't question my parenting choices" and of being expected to keep its opinions to itself while forking out an increasingly large & disproportionate share of its hard-earned income to facilitate the optional lifestyle choices of the very people telling it to shut up.
When the Village gets more of a say in who breeds, when and how often, you will see more benevolent attitudes toward those with their paws out for assistance.
When the Village gets more of a say in who breeds, when and how often, you will see more benevolent attitudes toward those with their paws out for assistance.
67
For the human race, raising children is not an "optional lifestyle choice." It must be done by someone or the species dies. If everyone decides its easier and more fun not to "breed," well, good luck with that.
4
we lost the "it takes a village" mentality, when no one in the village wanted to help pay for it. or even help at all.
7
Add to the other difficulties of the student-parent the problem of finding enough time to study. I saw this when I was teaching part time during the 70's at a local urban university. I related well to my students since I was a student parent myself, in my 40's -- my husband had died while I was in a Ph.D program. I was more fortunate than my younger divorced students. I had Social Security and VA benefits. They had perhaps some child support, but also full time day jobs and night classes. It took many of them years to finish a degree -- although a surprising number did. They did not have the kind of crushing debt that today's students face, but they certainly had to cope with exhaustion and burnout.
Also, before blaming single student parents, let's remember how circumstances for them might have changed in unplanned ways. Our society has some help for widows of veterans, but none at all for many others who find themselves single handedly raising a family while earning a living and going to school.
Also, before blaming single student parents, let's remember how circumstances for them might have changed in unplanned ways. Our society has some help for widows of veterans, but none at all for many others who find themselves single handedly raising a family while earning a living and going to school.
31
Anyone who is a "struggling single parent" got there in one of three easily avoided ways:'
- they chose to have a child outside of a stable or committed relationship - i.e. hook-up
- they chose to have a child in a dysfunctional and ultimately failed relationship. Most of which can be spotted a mile away long before a new human being in conceived
- they chose to have a child in a viable and stable relationship but were widowed. Without appropriate risk-management tools in place. Term life insurance is cheap and if you can't afford the premiums for both parents you shouldn't be having kids.
Death of a partner, disability, illness, economic recession, job loss etc. are not lightening bolts out of the blue - they are well-known adverse events that happen to most people at one time or another and can be planned for. The prudent do so; the imprudent do not and then stand around as professional victims, looking for yet another handout from those of us who did bother to do the planning.
- they chose to have a child outside of a stable or committed relationship - i.e. hook-up
- they chose to have a child in a dysfunctional and ultimately failed relationship. Most of which can be spotted a mile away long before a new human being in conceived
- they chose to have a child in a viable and stable relationship but were widowed. Without appropriate risk-management tools in place. Term life insurance is cheap and if you can't afford the premiums for both parents you shouldn't be having kids.
Death of a partner, disability, illness, economic recession, job loss etc. are not lightening bolts out of the blue - they are well-known adverse events that happen to most people at one time or another and can be planned for. The prudent do so; the imprudent do not and then stand around as professional victims, looking for yet another handout from those of us who did bother to do the planning.
47
Here, here. Also, such handouts are a moral hazard. To facilitate irresponsibility is to invite more of it.
12
EbbieS's post should be required reading for anyone who is planning to have a child, or is at risk of having one unexpectedly.
11
Because of what colleges are failing to do for students, some students are not graduating? I guess colleges should start acting more like daycare and less like places where students come and are expected to be independent learners and self-advocates.
47
For those who comment on how having children is a choice, consider this. The average person will hold many different jobs during their working lifetime. A degree in one field doesn't necessarily transfer to a job that requires a new skill set of set of credentials. Also, many employers seem to be requiring even higher levels of education for jobs than in the past. For example, being a physical therapist was once a field that required only a 4 year degree, then a master's, and now a PhD. The chances that at sometime a parent will need to go to college are pretty high. This isn't necessarily a matter of parents making bad choices but having changing working conditions thrust upon them.
34
Your point is absolutely correct, but the title of the piece has generated a lot of the negative responses. The people you are discussing clearly are not "College kids,with kids".
8
OR fight back against this insane mania that a simple job like physical therapy requires a DOCTORATE -- that is just seriously crazy. When did physical therapy become the equivalent of nuclear physics?
9
Why not put more money and energy in to making sure that people do not become parents before they are ready to become parents. The glorification of no strings attached sex, no social taboo to sex outside of marriage, Saying nothing while women who have no intention of getting married, create children with guys who are totally unable to help financially, all of these things are killing our society. actions has consequences.
86
So let's start having real sex ed in schools, a public service campaign for birth control (kind of like the anti smoking campaigns) and abortion as a last resort without all of the current nonsense that women have to go through to obtain one.
2
Question - if you can get and hold on ton a 'demanding job' as a software trainer (Kim ) why do you need a college degree.....?
3
Perhaps to further her career and professional future.
1
If people aren't prudent enough to avoid parenthood (via abstinence, multiple forms of contraception used simultaneously, the morning-after pill or abortion) well, bed, made, lie. I'm not interested in having even more of my wages confiscated to bail out those who choose willy-nilly breeding over responsible planning and restraint.
I'd love to ditch my job and go back to school, but since I'm a responsible net taxpayer who hasn't created any egregious burdens for society, no one is interested in "meeting my needs." Yet I and others like me would be a far better bet for a return on investment than these irresponsible "student parents." Where is the concern for our work-life balance?
What we really need are curricula in every year of high school and middle school that sternly point out the high costs -- financial, emotional, environmental, social, career, opportunity -- of becoming a parent before one is solvent, employable and in a stable, committed relationship with another solvent, responsible adult. In tandem with birth control clinics in public schools and available to every child over age 12, free and no questions asked.
I'd love to ditch my job and go back to school, but since I'm a responsible net taxpayer who hasn't created any egregious burdens for society, no one is interested in "meeting my needs." Yet I and others like me would be a far better bet for a return on investment than these irresponsible "student parents." Where is the concern for our work-life balance?
What we really need are curricula in every year of high school and middle school that sternly point out the high costs -- financial, emotional, environmental, social, career, opportunity -- of becoming a parent before one is solvent, employable and in a stable, committed relationship with another solvent, responsible adult. In tandem with birth control clinics in public schools and available to every child over age 12, free and no questions asked.
201
But Planned Parenthood clinics - -which provide birth control as well as abortions -- are being closed all over this nation. There is a loud contingent of people who are opposed to birth control as well as sex education, unless only abstinence is taught.
7
Tell the women in Mississippi and Louisiana they aren't prudent. Yep, definitely it's a lack of moral fiber on their part, and not the fact that there is only ONE clinic in the entire state. But it's all their fault.
8
So you would prefer to have your taxed wages subsidize poor households indefinitely? You would prefer to have a permanent underclass with little chance of mobility? Wouldn't it be preferable to subsidize the education of parents so that they can provide for their families and also contribute to society through taxed income? And their children will grow up knowing that their parent's hard work paid off and that education is worth pursuing. But you are quite right about the importance of early education which is precisely why we ought to end property-tax based funding of schools (or distribute such funds equally across communities).
6
Agreed with previous comments - 46 is hardly a traditional "college kid".
How about we address the elephant in the room? College degrees are largely unnecessary for most of the work front-line employees do. A two-year apprenticeship would suffice in many instances (I became a software developer teaching myself through Pluralsight in only a year). College has simply become the clean-up act for a primary/secondary education that doesn't cut the mustard.
So, no, we don't need to make college even more expensive by adding yet another amenity that everyone has to pay for. We need employers to pick up the slack and recognize they have to train their workforce.
How about we address the elephant in the room? College degrees are largely unnecessary for most of the work front-line employees do. A two-year apprenticeship would suffice in many instances (I became a software developer teaching myself through Pluralsight in only a year). College has simply become the clean-up act for a primary/secondary education that doesn't cut the mustard.
So, no, we don't need to make college even more expensive by adding yet another amenity that everyone has to pay for. We need employers to pick up the slack and recognize they have to train their workforce.
59
Ahhhh yes.... those cray 43 and 46 year-old 'kids'.
10
There is a huge difference between a 19 year old college student with a child and someone in their 30's with dependents who is pursuing higher education. To lump them together is not just misleading but minimizes the reasons for the education sought.
Many professions require constant further education (ceus) in order to retain one's position (teaching is one example). It is difficult and expensive to find time, couses, and the money with the most challenging of those being the time when one is trying to juggle the demands of job and family in order to retain the former to provide for the latter.
Many professions require constant further education (ceus) in order to retain one's position (teaching is one example). It is difficult and expensive to find time, couses, and the money with the most challenging of those being the time when one is trying to juggle the demands of job and family in order to retain the former to provide for the latter.
70
College students aren't "customers" to be "served." College is a commitment to take advantage of a privilege--a privilege to learn and study intensely with faculty and peers are doing the same. A degree is not a commodity which colleges are selfishly withholding from young women who have not planned their life decisions.
54
Making college affordable and flexible is a fine objective but the approaches by policy makers, Clinton/Warren/Sanders all center around putting more money into an inflexible, clubby system that has not served the students or tax payers. Higher ed has a horrible track record. Between direct government subsidy (state/community colleges/state taxes) and government subsidized loans, we place about $300B into the system. The system's arcane accreditation system rewards current practices and discourages innovation, new entrants, and promotes practices that drive up cost. Only accredited institutions can get government money and of course, acreditors are peer operated. This clubby system has resulted in massive increases in cost to students (2x inflation for over a generation, much higher than healthcare) fueled by inflexible faculty, accreditation, government and labor rules. If this was all producing positive outcomes, then so be it. Instead, almost 50% of people who start school fail to graduate. Higher ed's fundamental business model is designed to take in people who are unqualified and leave them without the support to graduate. What other industry has this kind of failure rate? Instead of dumping more money into a system that does such a poor job, a focus on restructuring and forcing institutions to breakdown their internal barriers and focus on students would be welcome
10
...small mistakes in the beginning lead to large mistakes in the end... i.e., why not prepare oneself to be a parent, by completing a college education, before becoming a parent...
...I'm plagued by emotional exhaustion... i.e., being asked to be responsible, either thru requests for donations or via increased taxes, for all the unfortunate, suffering-laden decisions of seemingly countless individuals who pathetically depend on the kindness of strangers...
...I'm plagued by emotional exhaustion... i.e., being asked to be responsible, either thru requests for donations or via increased taxes, for all the unfortunate, suffering-laden decisions of seemingly countless individuals who pathetically depend on the kindness of strangers...
46
It must be nice being plaqued with only emotional exhaustion---I'm a part-time employee, a graduate student, a divorced mom with a still-abusive ex and one kid in college and one kid set to start in the fall, plus one finishing middle school. If only *emotional* exhaustion was all I had to worry about. Instead of things like food, rent, shoes for teenage feet, grading, writing, research, car pooling, in general parenting, and then feelings. It would be *so* unbearable to have *emotional* exhaustion to deal with, too.
5
And who chose an abuser to father the child? "Society" ??
Women need to take responsibility for their mating choices. Don't let any old loser father your offspring and then portray yourself as an innocent victim.
Women need to take responsibility for their mating choices. Don't let any old loser father your offspring and then portray yourself as an innocent victim.
4
Every day more and more of the courses required for many job skills are offered online, 24/7/365.
And 'kids' aren't delivered by the stork.... having children is NOT a passive activity, it's a choice.
Timing on when to have a family is a responsibility that should not be discouraged.
So, like most things, employer-provided child care or family leave policies are trickier than this editorial implies....
And 'kids' aren't delivered by the stork.... having children is NOT a passive activity, it's a choice.
Timing on when to have a family is a responsibility that should not be discouraged.
So, like most things, employer-provided child care or family leave policies are trickier than this editorial implies....
65
Ok, so we need more birth control not less. Good by me. Let's see the red states get with the program.
12
But what to do when conservatives say abortion -- and birth control - -are not to be discussed in high school sex ed classes. And certainly should never be offered free to anyone.
5
There are two different categories of student - parents, which is not properly highlighted in this article. Number of one being youngsters becoming parents and then studying in college, the other being adult student - parents.
When you talk about a 46 year old mother, you simply can't say she is a college kid. This title is either misleading or the majority student - parents must be surely youngsters below 18 years age.
First and foremost, why westerners associate social life with studies, I fail to understand. When we give too much importance to social life that too as a student, we surely have a million hurdles to cross. Social life will not go anywhere. There is plenty of time for it after college graduation and employment.
Surely certain facilities need to be provided to adult student - parents but whatever the facilities that may be provided, they always fall short mainly because of huge entrants to the colleges in spite of dropouts and meeting their requirements is a mega challenge for colleges and the governments concerned.
More than the facilities, large scale awreness programmes must be considered to educate the young students and their parents for delinking social life with studies once for all.
When you talk about a 46 year old mother, you simply can't say she is a college kid. This title is either misleading or the majority student - parents must be surely youngsters below 18 years age.
First and foremost, why westerners associate social life with studies, I fail to understand. When we give too much importance to social life that too as a student, we surely have a million hurdles to cross. Social life will not go anywhere. There is plenty of time for it after college graduation and employment.
Surely certain facilities need to be provided to adult student - parents but whatever the facilities that may be provided, they always fall short mainly because of huge entrants to the colleges in spite of dropouts and meeting their requirements is a mega challenge for colleges and the governments concerned.
More than the facilities, large scale awreness programmes must be considered to educate the young students and their parents for delinking social life with studies once for all.
23
College students of the conventional age, if serious about study, will put off having kids. Setting priorities is a necessary skill in life. Without good grades, a college diploma won't help much because pretty much everyone has the same paper.
For those who become parents and go back to school in their 40s, it is a juggling for rare people, and it is a fool's errand to make policies governing rare cases.
For those who become parents and go back to school in their 40s, it is a juggling for rare people, and it is a fool's errand to make policies governing rare cases.
2
Sivaram Pochiraju got it absolutely right. When colleges attempt to meet the "needs" of people who have made poor life choices (i.e,, becoming young, unwed parents), those colleges will fail to meet the needs of the majority (e.g. getting a job after graduation). India (and Asian generally speaking) has it right. College is not a social pursuit nor is it a space to coddle customers--formerly known as students.
4
The real issue is cost of education - both for those with kids and those without. Trying to pay for school when your kids will soon be looking for you to somehow pay for their schooling is not a good spot to be.