Huh odd, I would have bet my last dollar the Iraqi forces would have thrown down their weapons and ran away by now. Thats weird. Fools wouldnt be in this mess in the first place had their men in Mosul fought and died like real soldiers and not run away like dogs whimpering in some corner. Pathetic. The Iraqi citizens of no one but the Iraqi military to thank for the destruction death and just out right evil ISIS has wrought on the Iraqi people and countryside.
2
The quotations from the Iraqi civilians at the end of the article express how deeply distrusted the central Iraqi government is. We have a young woman who unapologetically defends Daesh and says she doesn't care who rules Falluja. She even makes a political point of speaking in classical Arabic.
Even more striking is Abdulhamid Abdella. Most men have been taken into custody by the government because of assumed ties to ISIS -- when/if will they be released? How many bribes will have to be paid? What will they have endured in government custody? It's no surprise that Abdella is willing to say the most appalling things and point the finger at everyone he knows in order to save his own skin and protect his family.
I don't defend ISIS. But it looks like to people on the ground there's not much difference between the Islamic and Iraqi states.
Even more striking is Abdulhamid Abdella. Most men have been taken into custody by the government because of assumed ties to ISIS -- when/if will they be released? How many bribes will have to be paid? What will they have endured in government custody? It's no surprise that Abdella is willing to say the most appalling things and point the finger at everyone he knows in order to save his own skin and protect his family.
I don't defend ISIS. But it looks like to people on the ground there's not much difference between the Islamic and Iraqi states.
1
How long is this farce of Saudi Arabia continue to continue?
How long are the American people going to continue allowing US leadership to ignore the role of Saudi theology in Islamic problems throughout the world, including the US and the west?
How long are we going to continue allowing the Wahhabis to control 90% of the mosques in the west?
We fight the symptom of radical Islam - Isis - yet we protect its cause - Saudi Arabia - and we allow it to flourish?
How long are the American people going to continue allowing US leadership to ignore the role of Saudi theology in Islamic problems throughout the world, including the US and the west?
How long are we going to continue allowing the Wahhabis to control 90% of the mosques in the west?
We fight the symptom of radical Islam - Isis - yet we protect its cause - Saudi Arabia - and we allow it to flourish?
24
ISIS was funded and organized by Saudi citizens. 9-11 was planned, funded, and executed by Saudi citizens with at least some help from Saudi government officials.
Wahhabism is the source of the hatred and bloodshed in the Middle East. We ignore that and instead spend trillions of dollars as hundreds of thousands die while we play whack a mole.
Wahhabism is the source of the hatred and bloodshed in the Middle East. We ignore that and instead spend trillions of dollars as hundreds of thousands die while we play whack a mole.
Iran plays no part in the continuation of this conflict?
Right cause the only Islamic terrorist problem in the world is a Sunni problem right right right there are no Shiite or Kurdish terrorist groups nope not at all not ever. The Sunni Shiite conflict is the issue, this is what its all about sunnis vs shiites period end of story. Thats what its always been out, Sunnis vs Shiites.
Thank you GW Bush, Dick Cheney, Paul Wolfowitz, for the gift you have bestowed upon humanity. "Operation Iraqi Freedom"
21
Mission accomplished!!
2
The US already has very tough screening and vetting mechanisms for refugees. So stop wasting your breath defending Trump and claiming he is correct in asserting that we don't know what is going on.
It takes from 18-24 months for any Syrian refugee to go through the US process for asylum, as reported by the NYT: http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2015/11/20/us/why-it-takes-two-years-...
There are also several studies that show that US law enforcement believes right-wing terrorism is a more urgent threat than jihadism: http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/16/opinion/the-other-terror-threat.html
It takes from 18-24 months for any Syrian refugee to go through the US process for asylum, as reported by the NYT: http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2015/11/20/us/why-it-takes-two-years-...
There are also several studies that show that US law enforcement believes right-wing terrorism is a more urgent threat than jihadism: http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/16/opinion/the-other-terror-threat.html
3
Yeah expect during the Iraq War two Islamic terrorists made it into the United States. One was not only a terrorist but a man who bragged on multiple social media platforms of attacking and killing American and Coalition forces in Afghanstan and Iraq. Thank god they were sending weapons and money back and not intent on killing Americans. But yes terrorists have made it into the US under the guise of refugee before. Both men are now in federal prison for life.
As Isis fighters cut off their beards to blend in with other refugees, Trump is condemned as a racist for wanting to keep them all out until we can tell which is which.
But the same people who would let 100% in with one in a hundred being a terrorist would, at the same time, restrict gun sales to all via an "assault weapon" ban, despite the fact that, for every hundred thousand sold, maybe one is purchased by a terrorist.
But the same people who would let 100% in with one in a hundred being a terrorist would, at the same time, restrict gun sales to all via an "assault weapon" ban, despite the fact that, for every hundred thousand sold, maybe one is purchased by a terrorist.
5
Your argument I'm afraid is full of holes.
First of all, the US will let in 20k refugees out of 11m.
A drop in the bucket. And compare that to the millions who have been streaming into Europe and your hysteria illustrates the silliness of your position.
It is easy to find 20k reasonable and secular Muslims, especially if they originate in secular Syria and come from the professional levels of society. The US could benefit as has Canada for example by accepting doctors and engineers and locating them in towns that are in short supply of them.
So your refugee argument is driven by sensationalist one-liner commentary and the thinking that is as deep as the one-line itself.
The problem is what happens to the Muslims once they enter the US. And now, you should be asking yourself rather, why it is that the US has allowed a radical ideology like Wahhabism control 90% of the Mosques in the US. Why are muslim communities turning into mini-Saudi Arabias? Saudi Arabia is not exactly known for its western values or its belief in the integration of Muslims with humanity. It is enough you visit KSA to understand.
As for your weapons argument. It is childish and nonsensical. The point is simply why is it so easy to obtain weapons?
First of all, the US will let in 20k refugees out of 11m.
A drop in the bucket. And compare that to the millions who have been streaming into Europe and your hysteria illustrates the silliness of your position.
It is easy to find 20k reasonable and secular Muslims, especially if they originate in secular Syria and come from the professional levels of society. The US could benefit as has Canada for example by accepting doctors and engineers and locating them in towns that are in short supply of them.
So your refugee argument is driven by sensationalist one-liner commentary and the thinking that is as deep as the one-line itself.
The problem is what happens to the Muslims once they enter the US. And now, you should be asking yourself rather, why it is that the US has allowed a radical ideology like Wahhabism control 90% of the Mosques in the US. Why are muslim communities turning into mini-Saudi Arabias? Saudi Arabia is not exactly known for its western values or its belief in the integration of Muslims with humanity. It is enough you visit KSA to understand.
As for your weapons argument. It is childish and nonsensical. The point is simply why is it so easy to obtain weapons?
3
Let's please quit this blaming of Iraq and the Middle East on Obama and Clinton. While they're not exactly the brightest candles in the chandelier their faults pale in comparison to the greed for Saddam's oil and the stupidity that went with it by Cheney and Rumsfeld and Wolfowitz et. al. None of the present situation would be as it is now if it weren't for these wizards who rightfully should be tried as war criminals because to add insult to injury they had to outright lie to the American people in order to get their little oil grab going.
29
Yeah expect Obama ran on the promise of getting our soldiers out of the Middle East, now he is saying they will be in Afghanstan even longer. So what is it? Is Obama going to finally get us out of the Middle East or was it yet another empty promise by some politician who wanted to get rich at taxpayers expense? Sorry both parties are full of elite politicians who dont care about me or you but instead their own wallets and bank accounts.
3
I pray for the innocent children and their families who suffer at the hands of men. I have 2 small children. I can't even imagine how these mothers manage to keep them safe and what worry they must feel.
9
While I was never a fan of the Iraqi war, and I was in the minority at the time, I continue to be astounded by comments regarding Bush and Cheney and Rumsfeld.
Guys, the middle east has always been tribal, has always had groups that were well funded for spreading wahabbism - at least since the 1700s. Saudi exports these extremists, building them Mosques where ever they settle.
Iraq is a minority Sunni - Sunni's weren't happy until Saddam took over with murder, fear, and torture. Not our problem, I get it. But Iraq and the rest of the middle east has not really changed within. Only externally as they seek to move west - for money, for jobs, for safety, for terrorism. And that has been happening for the last 20+ years.
So, I do not blame the US or the west for radical islam. I do blame the west, especially the US, for arming these nut jobs. But, that happened under Obama's watch as he, and Hillary, decided that the Arab Spring was somehow an end to middle evil thinking and a move towards democracy as the west defines it. Naive at best. Idealism will not keep the world safe. Neither the Sunnis nor Shiites care to live under a democracy. They want their tribe to run things; they tolerate nothing else.
Saying this, I was pleased to read the final sentence - "...believes there should be no mercy for anyone who joined the group: “Believe me, if it was my own son, I would slaughter him.”
Guys, the middle east has always been tribal, has always had groups that were well funded for spreading wahabbism - at least since the 1700s. Saudi exports these extremists, building them Mosques where ever they settle.
Iraq is a minority Sunni - Sunni's weren't happy until Saddam took over with murder, fear, and torture. Not our problem, I get it. But Iraq and the rest of the middle east has not really changed within. Only externally as they seek to move west - for money, for jobs, for safety, for terrorism. And that has been happening for the last 20+ years.
So, I do not blame the US or the west for radical islam. I do blame the west, especially the US, for arming these nut jobs. But, that happened under Obama's watch as he, and Hillary, decided that the Arab Spring was somehow an end to middle evil thinking and a move towards democracy as the west defines it. Naive at best. Idealism will not keep the world safe. Neither the Sunnis nor Shiites care to live under a democracy. They want their tribe to run things; they tolerate nothing else.
Saying this, I was pleased to read the final sentence - "...believes there should be no mercy for anyone who joined the group: “Believe me, if it was my own son, I would slaughter him.”
9
"Middle evil" thinking?
3
You mention 'naive' in regard to Obama and Clinton. Naivety and failure to foresee the consequences of the invasion, subsequent occupation,of a country about which they knew practically nothing, disbanding the Iraqi army, et., were all hallmarks of the previous administration. While Wahhabism certainly deserves it's share of blame - just which administration supported a group of the most extreme believers, the Taliban? Seems that naivety, and arrogant ignorance goes back much further than Obama and Clinton. Let's place a lot more blame on previous administrations.
9
And yet the guy couldnt be bothered into fighting ISIS when they controlled Falluja. That guys a coward.
One day there will be a monument in Tehran commemorating the sacrifice of the Neocons in restoring the Persian empire.
19
Shocking! They should have treated the people more kindly as we did at Abu Ghraib. Oh,wait.They did treat them as we did at Abu Ghraib.
4
Most people say that the islamic state is able to fight for so long and so many enemies at the same time because they have a huge stockpile of weapons and ammunition captured from the Iraqi Army in 2014 and because they use a corridor west of the Euphrates from Raqqa to the Syria-Turkey border as a supply line. I don't believe it. It's impossible to get ammunition enough to fight the armies of Iraq and Syria plus Syrian and Iraqi Kurds, all supported by Russia and Western powers, for two years non-stop from these sources. They can get some ammunition smuggled from Turkey, but not much. It would involve countless trucks crossing the border day and night under Western and Russian warplanes. For me, the source for this all is big business all the time with the Assad regime. They trade lots of money, oil and gas with Assad all the time. In fact, Assad needs them, in order to say that Syria without his regime would be much worse and to tell the whole World that his enemies are the worst terrorists of all times. In fact IS often commits the worst atrocities and publicizes them in order to strengthen Assad's speech. Assad is their enemy during the day and their best friend at night. Once IS is completely defeated, Assad and his Russian and Iranian allies will do their best to create a similar thing replace it.
2
There are two other major players in it you forgot to mention. One is having a long border with IS, had its share of strange rumours involving the President's son, oil and weapon deals; the other is financing Sunnite extremists everywhere and even flew out ISIS fighters to Yemen.
And they are not Syria or Iran.
And they are not Syria or Iran.
2
THIS article like many others is trying to Tie the Defeat of ISIS to Rise of Iran!???
AS there is NO Evidence that the pro-Iran Groups have had any Role in the fight for Falluja beside Rumors by the Usual Suspects.
IF the thinking is that the Elimination of ISIS would Empower Iran, we are then being fed more False Propaganda on how the US/EU are Determined to Exterminate the Wahhabi Financed ISIS.
AS there is NO Evidence that the pro-Iran Groups have had any Role in the fight for Falluja beside Rumors by the Usual Suspects.
IF the thinking is that the Elimination of ISIS would Empower Iran, we are then being fed more False Propaganda on how the US/EU are Determined to Exterminate the Wahhabi Financed ISIS.
2
You should start a business producing wedding invitations
Enough with the brow-beating over Bush, Cheney, etc... The bigger problem here is the hypocrisy all over this region that residents must fight for their "honor" against the people they demonstrably want to live with (the Americans), but will comparably lay down like dogs before ISIS, a corrupt secular government, or every other indigenous failure.
2
Once again the NYT and other blind US media outlets can't connect the dot regarding radical Islamic Muslim terrorism. The article clearly mentioned that they found clumps of human hair where ISIS members had shaved their beards in order to fit in with Syrian refugees. This evidence aligns with what the CIA director said the other day in his testimony. He stated that ISIS members are posing as refugees in order to enter European countries and the US. The testimony validates what Trump has been saying all along.
Trump stated that a temporary ban should be placed on refugees coming from terrorist hotbed countries until the US have mechanisms in place that will properly vet the refugees. The FBI director stated the other day that he is not satisfied or comfortable with the current vetting system for refugees. This is the same thing Trump is saying. But yet NYT constantly bash Trump. What does being Left or Right have anything to do with common sense? The NYT seems to be missing this piece of the puzzle.
Trump stated that a temporary ban should be placed on refugees coming from terrorist hotbed countries until the US have mechanisms in place that will properly vet the refugees. The FBI director stated the other day that he is not satisfied or comfortable with the current vetting system for refugees. This is the same thing Trump is saying. But yet NYT constantly bash Trump. What does being Left or Right have anything to do with common sense? The NYT seems to be missing this piece of the puzzle.
18
ISIS members might be shaving their beards t flee with refugees because they no longer want to remain part of ISIS. Many people are swept into a movement unwillingly, then lack a means of escape.
And since no one in the article is talking about any of these people coming to the US, perhaps you might consider even a minimal level compassion for people whose lives were upturned by greedy and pointless US aggression. You, too, can escape the Trump-spawned wave of hate.
And since no one in the article is talking about any of these people coming to the US, perhaps you might consider even a minimal level compassion for people whose lives were upturned by greedy and pointless US aggression. You, too, can escape the Trump-spawned wave of hate.
2
The NYT may be missing a part of the puzzle, but your missing the entire picture.
9
So we should have banned Catholic immigrants during the 1970's-1990's when "some" Catholics who were members of the IRA were bombing and killing innocent civilians in England during "The Troubles"?
6
MD-Hilary and John Kerry also supported this. Too cowardly to vote with conviction given their political aspirations at the time. CHeney and Rumsfeld created this monster, but the people who supported it are responsible too. Bernie didn't vote for it....he had the same info as Hilary....
6
It is time to put the bugaboo of support for the Iraq war on Senators who voted for authorizing to the Bush administration to use whatever means necessary to get rid of weapons of mass destruction. It was used to justify the invasion but that it was not a declaration of war. The mistake was trusting that the Bush administration would wait for serious evidence from inspectors that Hussein actually had a large pile of WMD's. That honorable men, like Colin Powell, fell for the deception engineered by Cheney and Rumsfeld tells us much about the mood of the country at the time. Both Kerry and Hillary admitted that they made a serious mistake by not taking into account the level of deception they were facing.
4
I remember when the discussions were first hitting the newspapers about what Saddam was doing. When I started reading references to WMDs I thought to myself, "Ridiculous. It's obvious this is a ploy by Bush and Company". To me, at the time, it seemed incredibly obvious that Bush was lying through his teeth. I opposed from day 1 the invasion of Iraq.
I think it's unforgivable that Democratic leaders like Clinton and Kerry went for the bait.
I think it's unforgivable that Democratic leaders like Clinton and Kerry went for the bait.
1
Expect it was Obama who armed rebel groups in Syria some of which either just gave the weapons to ISIS or defected to ISIS's side. Its not just the fault of Bush and Chenney. Obama ran on the promise of getting us out of the Middle East and the other day said we will now be in Afghanstan much longer now. So which is it? Is Obama going to get us out of the Middle East in the next year or was this just another empty promise by some elite politician who cares more about their career and bank account than the American people?
The whole world wants you to do something. Do anything so they will stay over there and not become migrants to the U.S. or Europe.
1
Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld.
Thanks for the new world
Thanks for the new world
48
Obama, Clinton, Kerry
Thanks for the Arab Spring
Thanks for the Arab Spring
5
Wahhabism? Thanks, House of Saud.
5
It was the Bush Administration and their supporters I who crowed about and took credit for the "Arab Spring," pointing to Libya and Bahrain as the product of their good works in Iraq. By the time the American people (and Bush himself) came to their senses and elected Obama, Bush's "Arab Spring" was already a nightmare.
1
In the final analysis, the only lasting solution to the Iraq problem will be partition into three self governing parts: Sunni, Shia, and Kurd. Until that happens all efforts, including those by the UN, the US, the EU etc. will be a waste of blood and resources.
36
Biden was right.
5
I'm not sure partitioning Iraq into 3 territories; kurd, sunni and shiite, would be the the long term solution. Eventually they would attack each other for their territory and resources. For example, the oil fields are not uniformly distributed throughout the country.
1
Joe Biden got mocked for suggesting that 11 years ago. But he was right.
3
I sometimes wonder if George W. Bush, Dick Cheney or Donald Rumsfeld ever read any articles like this one and how they could not lament what they wrought upon our world. I wonder how they could not know.
Is it the innate goodness of the common human soul that just cannot admit to such horror spawned from their actions? Or is it the cold evil of the sociopath that just doesn't give a damn? Or somewhere in between.
Is it the innate goodness of the common human soul that just cannot admit to such horror spawned from their actions? Or is it the cold evil of the sociopath that just doesn't give a damn? Or somewhere in between.
35
This quote from the article speaks volumes: "The man, Abdulhamid Abdella, 47, [who did not join ISIS] believes there should be no mercy for anyone who joined the group [ISIS]: 'Believe me, if it was my own son, I would slaughter him.'”
We are dealing with people who have no respect for life, show no mercy, and have no gratitude. Remember a well worn proverb of most of Islam is that "My enemy's enemy is my friend."
We never understood the complexity of Muslim belief and society. Islam is a way of life we do not understand, and until we do, we should be very cautious about getting involved and certainly not bring these problems back to our own country.
This may not be politically correct, but, at the end of the day, security and self preservation takes precedence. No one wants their tombstone to say "His enemies killed him, but he was politically correct to the end."
We are dealing with people who have no respect for life, show no mercy, and have no gratitude. Remember a well worn proverb of most of Islam is that "My enemy's enemy is my friend."
We never understood the complexity of Muslim belief and society. Islam is a way of life we do not understand, and until we do, we should be very cautious about getting involved and certainly not bring these problems back to our own country.
This may not be politically correct, but, at the end of the day, security and self preservation takes precedence. No one wants their tombstone to say "His enemies killed him, but he was politically correct to the end."
14
Then why didnt he fight ISIS? Ah thats right he wants someone else to do the fighting and dying for him and his town. Pathetic.
"Ryan Crocker, a former American ambassador to Iraq, warned in an online column recently that victory in Falluja, instead of bringing a lasting peace, is likely to worsen Iraq’s sectarian divide because of the dominant role here of Iran, the region’s pre-eminent Shiite power, which has stood in the way of political outreach to Sunnis."
Self-serving and short memories. Didn't we, the US, ignite the sectarian killing by invading Iraq under false pretense? The only reason Iran is having influence in Iraq was because the US invaded and removed the only Arab government capable of acting as a buffer state against Iran. Even now, there is still a denial to acknowledge strategic blunders and mistakes on the part of the foreign policy establishment and the mainstream media.
Self-serving and short memories. Didn't we, the US, ignite the sectarian killing by invading Iraq under false pretense? The only reason Iran is having influence in Iraq was because the US invaded and removed the only Arab government capable of acting as a buffer state against Iran. Even now, there is still a denial to acknowledge strategic blunders and mistakes on the part of the foreign policy establishment and the mainstream media.
15
Buahahahaaha sectarian violence has been occurring in the Middle East long before the invasion of Iraq.
“Believe me, if it was my own son, I would slaughter him.”
This is who we've thrown our lot in with.
This is who we've thrown our lot in with.
10
Yeah, somebody saying that if his own son joined ISIS, he'd still punish him. This is not a sign of barbarism, it's a sign of principle and integrity.
3
What was life like in Falluja under Saddam Hussein? The Iraqi government needs to be inclusive of all sects. Will that happen? Perhaps by now they've learned the lesson that one sect dominance will not work to create a viable country for all its people.
3
"Perhaps by now"
Key words and I strongly suspect they haven't. Greed, corruption and the short-sightedness that come with those qualities are still rampant.
Key words and I strongly suspect they haven't. Greed, corruption and the short-sightedness that come with those qualities are still rampant.
to the editors: in the "Your Thursday briefing" e-mail, the link to this article starts with "Iraqi forces liberating the city...". The term "liberating" seems rather presumptive - editorial bias perhaps? Surely there are some in that city who are not pleased to be "liberated" by said "Iraqi forces". Perhaps "recapturing" would be a better choice of words.
5
Its always like that. Sunnis take a Shiite area they abuse them and destroy their property. Shiites take a Sunni area they abuse them and destroy their property. Its a never ending circle of retaliation and revenge.
1