A war crime, covered up by the US military, regardless of who instigated the action. That all crews operating in this area would not be aware of every medical facility, especially one lit up by generators, is not credible and would be a crime in and of itself on the part of the commanders
3
How did they circle and observe a large T-shaped building with a white cross on the roof to identify it as a hospital and whose GPS coordinates were known to everyone for a full hour and not notice they had the wrong building or double check they had the correct building? An accident , a result of equipment failures and bad decisions on the part of the gunship crew and the Special Forces is beyond belief. Votel is using "make the lie as big and outrageous as possible and repeat it enough times until it becomes truth" principle.
2
Once again, 'the greatest fighting force in history' is used as a violent tool in a local squabble. Anyone even considering joining this gang of over-armored thugs, murdering for the Wall Street profiteers, needs an intervention by rational adults. This out-of-control military is not what the Founders envisioned.
I find it a bit confusing that there is no credit given to the Afghan Forces' claims. at those days, on of the dead Doctor's last minute messages were everywhere on social media. this was an Afghan doctor. when I read those messages, I had not doubt that the had been a Taliban sympathizer. the language in the message was loaded with extremest and jihad flavours.
imagine a situation that such a facility is infiltrated by enemy. they can coordinate the battle from there without taking their weapons inside. The Taliban with radios inside is a public knowledge in Afghanistan. even in this report we read that the Taliban pick up truck have been entering the facility. that is, endangering the lives of the civilians inside the building. when a pick up truck enters a facility, there no way you can search it properly particular in a situation like that one.
and, what if someone Taliban who has killed many Afghan soldiers, once cornered and injured (even lightly ) runs into the hospital? obviously the forces are not able to enter the hospital, and he would have a good few days of peace and then off goes to his usual business of killing people and destroying the country and the nation. if say, my brother or father had been killed by him, I would not accept this humanitarian protection of a terrorist killer. and imagine if one or two doctors and/or employees of the hospital are secretly sympathetic with the Taliban and likes their ideology.
imagine a situation that such a facility is infiltrated by enemy. they can coordinate the battle from there without taking their weapons inside. The Taliban with radios inside is a public knowledge in Afghanistan. even in this report we read that the Taliban pick up truck have been entering the facility. that is, endangering the lives of the civilians inside the building. when a pick up truck enters a facility, there no way you can search it properly particular in a situation like that one.
and, what if someone Taliban who has killed many Afghan soldiers, once cornered and injured (even lightly ) runs into the hospital? obviously the forces are not able to enter the hospital, and he would have a good few days of peace and then off goes to his usual business of killing people and destroying the country and the nation. if say, my brother or father had been killed by him, I would not accept this humanitarian protection of a terrorist killer. and imagine if one or two doctors and/or employees of the hospital are secretly sympathetic with the Taliban and likes their ideology.
1
Even without a thorough investigation, the fact that Afghan forces are fighting the Taliban and MSF treats Taliban wounded caused me to immediately assume the targeting was intentional when the story first broke.
Not all cultures subscribe to western liberal democratic ideals, especially when it comes to how to fight, and Afghanistan is not a western liberal democracy. MSF is on Afghan soil, and their virtues notwithstanding, has to know that treating an enemy makes them an enemy in the eyes of some Afghans.
Pashtunwali predates Geneva by about 3,000 years. That's their code. It's their soil. This should be no surprise to anyone. It should serve as a lesson learned to all who would go to another culture's home and demand the inhabitants adhere to the outsider's norms. That is a dangerous arrogance.
What the Afghans did was wrong from my view, the view of MSF, and the view of the western media. But the Afghans are in Afghanistan, and after having their nation bombed, invaded, and occupied, their people massacred, arrested, detained, beaten, subject to extraordinary rendition, tortured, and humiliated, I'm going to go out on a limb and assume that western views hold no moral weight with the Afghans.
Not all cultures subscribe to western liberal democratic ideals, especially when it comes to how to fight, and Afghanistan is not a western liberal democracy. MSF is on Afghan soil, and their virtues notwithstanding, has to know that treating an enemy makes them an enemy in the eyes of some Afghans.
Pashtunwali predates Geneva by about 3,000 years. That's their code. It's their soil. This should be no surprise to anyone. It should serve as a lesson learned to all who would go to another culture's home and demand the inhabitants adhere to the outsider's norms. That is a dangerous arrogance.
What the Afghans did was wrong from my view, the view of MSF, and the view of the western media. But the Afghans are in Afghanistan, and after having their nation bombed, invaded, and occupied, their people massacred, arrested, detained, beaten, subject to extraordinary rendition, tortured, and humiliated, I'm going to go out on a limb and assume that western views hold no moral weight with the Afghans.
3
“We started a fire, good effects.”
...
“The investigation concluded that the personnel involved did not know they were striking a medical facility,” Gen. Joseph Votel, the head of the military’s Central Command, said at a news conference. “They were absolutely trying to do the right thing.” (--from, Doctors With Enemies: Did Afghan Forces Target the M.S.F. Hospital?)
Yeah, the right thing. Shooting and bombing and killing.
How disappointing that language is ruptured and septic from trying to force and fit the horrible into it.
...
“The investigation concluded that the personnel involved did not know they were striking a medical facility,” Gen. Joseph Votel, the head of the military’s Central Command, said at a news conference. “They were absolutely trying to do the right thing.” (--from, Doctors With Enemies: Did Afghan Forces Target the M.S.F. Hospital?)
Yeah, the right thing. Shooting and bombing and killing.
How disappointing that language is ruptured and septic from trying to force and fit the horrible into it.
3
“They were absolutely trying to do the right thing.”
It boggles the mind that slaughtering masses of people is EVER the "right thing." As long as they're "enemies," right?
All these young men and women slaughtering each other because of one or two people at the top who want power--and are nutjobs--and all the angry and/or brainwashed young men who say, "Okay! Let's show how manly we are and kill hundreds and thousands of our fellow human beings!" And, I'm sure, those people who do not want to do any killing at all but are forced to in one way or another.
It's just crazy, and irrational. Why do we listen to these crazy leaders?
It boggles the mind that slaughtering masses of people is EVER the "right thing." As long as they're "enemies," right?
All these young men and women slaughtering each other because of one or two people at the top who want power--and are nutjobs--and all the angry and/or brainwashed young men who say, "Okay! Let's show how manly we are and kill hundreds and thousands of our fellow human beings!" And, I'm sure, those people who do not want to do any killing at all but are forced to in one way or another.
It's just crazy, and irrational. Why do we listen to these crazy leaders?
4
US still at war with Afghanistan, for 15 years already, US still losing, what incompetence, what a shame, and at what cost, while all infrastructures crumbling here?
2
This is a very well researched account of what happened in Kunduz. It gives credence to the claim of MSF that there should be an independent investigation. Only then will the public know whether the investigation by the U.S. military is true or an elaborate whitewash.
7
Anent my previous comment praising Ambassador Ross who spoke Arabic fluently, and thus was a highly effective representative of our country, it should also be mentioned that ROSS also was fluent in Kabyle, one of the Berber languages spoken by the "montagnards" in the rocky hilltops of the Kabylie. I know this because his tutor, himself a journalist for the Revolution Africaine(like NEWSWEEK)which reviewed my book, "Challenging De Gaulle," was a close friend of mine. As far as ambassadors go, Ross was primus inter pares.Journalist's name was RABAH HASSANI, who was the"personne interposee" between me and Yacef Saadi, whom I interviewed at length in his majestic white house atop EL BIAR.in 1990. Mouloud Feraoun, the late, great writer and friend of Camus--they attended the same lycee in Algiers--was also from the Kabylie, as was KRIM BELKACEM, whom I spoke with for the purpose of my research.. These r merely "faits divers," and a trifle off topic, but perhaps r of interest to some of your readers. Have lost track of Hassani, but hope he and his family r o.k, because the second ALGERIAN WAR between the "bien pensants" of the FIS and government forces was a bloody affair, and continues today in a sporadic fashion.
Blaming Afghans is a cover up. MSF hospital coordinates were known. For more than an hour the MSF tried to call off the strike, with no effect. This is a war crime, yet only junior officers are 'disciplined'. A travesty.
7
What a fabulous piece of reporting! Aikins has already collected awards; he certainly deserves one for getting a story the Army, with all its access and resources, somehow, mysteriously, missed. Not only about the hospital, but about the Army's own rules of engagement . . . which in turn go back to the Joint Chiefs of Staff . . . which in turn go back to the White House.
5
These doctors are so brave. It's really amazing.
This is a terrible tragedy and another example of why war is so horrible.
With that said, I cant' help but feel the following gut reaction: the West fights its wars in these regions with one hand tied behind its back to avoid civilian casualties, while the enemy uses illegal tactics as a core strategy. I believe that Western nations entered into the various international treaties regarding the conduct of war based, in some respect, on self interest--so that our troops would benefit from reciprocal treatment from an enemy. But when an enemy ceases to hold up its end of the bargain, you start to wonder, why should we continue to do so? I guess the question is whether we abide by the laws of war because it's the absolute moral thing to do (regardless of enemy conduct) or rather as part of a quid pro quo bargain (in which a breach by the other side can terminate our obligations)?
This is a terrible tragedy and another example of why war is so horrible.
With that said, I cant' help but feel the following gut reaction: the West fights its wars in these regions with one hand tied behind its back to avoid civilian casualties, while the enemy uses illegal tactics as a core strategy. I believe that Western nations entered into the various international treaties regarding the conduct of war based, in some respect, on self interest--so that our troops would benefit from reciprocal treatment from an enemy. But when an enemy ceases to hold up its end of the bargain, you start to wonder, why should we continue to do so? I guess the question is whether we abide by the laws of war because it's the absolute moral thing to do (regardless of enemy conduct) or rather as part of a quid pro quo bargain (in which a breach by the other side can terminate our obligations)?
5
Ever notice how "Doctors Without Morals or Allegiances" always establish their hospitals deep in enemy territory, and never near an ISAF base? Why is that? (For those of you from Rio Linda, it's a rhetorical question.) With all of the troubled areas in the world that could genuinely use medical services offered by such organizations, DWMA always chooses to go into declared war zones, unnecessarily putting their own lives--and the lives of their patients--at risk. If you choose to play with fire, don't be surprised when you get burned. Otherwise, find a safer sandbox to go play in.
6
Because MSF is one of the only organizations that as the capability and expertise to provide emergency medical care in active conflict zones. Without their efforts, Ebola would still be raging through West Africa and likely beyond. Countless humanitarian disasters around the world have been avoided or severely reduced in size and scope Your accusation that these doctors lack morals is profoundly ignorant. Although their morals are clearly very different then yours. "Without borders" does imply they are not agents of any country- and their commitment to neutrality has won them respect that is part of what allows them to operate in dangerous areas. The reason they don't setup near ISAF bases, as you probably already know, is there purpose isn't to provide medical aid to the american military. The american military already has adequate medical facilities that are superior to MSF's. They provide emergency care to areas that otherwise would have none. MSF's resources and capabilities simply aren't needed, and putting a facility there would be a waste. However, if for some reason, an american soldier showed up at an IMF hospital, you can be sure they wouldn't be turned away. If you had read the article, you would see they treated Afghan forces troops as well, and civilians. Your view that the only ethical thing to volunteer for is the military is a parody of moraliy.
3
I don't believe American troops would willfully attack a neutral medical facility.
The best reason for not engaging in nation building is on full display here, this is the Afghan governments fight. The U.S. Has no business involving itself in messy local politics and situations like this further illustrate the dangers to U.S. Long term interests. If the local forces are not willing to fight for there homes and families, we can't fix that.
When U.S. Power is utilized, it must me overwhelming, unfortunately, that is what occurred here. Stay out of non-core operations, our focus is supposed to be on those that attacked us on 9/11 and those that want to attack us again from safe havens in Afghanistan.
Again, American forces don't attack neutral medical facilities, if they do they would be prosecuted under the UCMJ. Stay out of local politics, it's bad for American interests.
The best reason for not engaging in nation building is on full display here, this is the Afghan governments fight. The U.S. Has no business involving itself in messy local politics and situations like this further illustrate the dangers to U.S. Long term interests. If the local forces are not willing to fight for there homes and families, we can't fix that.
When U.S. Power is utilized, it must me overwhelming, unfortunately, that is what occurred here. Stay out of non-core operations, our focus is supposed to be on those that attacked us on 9/11 and those that want to attack us again from safe havens in Afghanistan.
Again, American forces don't attack neutral medical facilities, if they do they would be prosecuted under the UCMJ. Stay out of local politics, it's bad for American interests.
3
Taliban and ISIL fighters have used hospital zones, including using ambulances to maneuver fighters during engagements, since time immemorial over there. They then scream "but we wanted only peace" for that hospital, and they are innocent of favoring insurgents and terrorists. The media eats it up...ratings, plus calling the big bad bullies, the USA, and its fighting personnel "war mongers."
How anyone can be a warmonger who scrupulously follows the Rules of Engagement that we put on ourselves? Well, they shouldn't be. But war, and sectarian killing at a level we don't understand, is commonplace for the Afghans as well as the Iraqis the Yemeni forces, the Libyans, Saudis, et.al. The entire Middle East seems to be willing to kill each other with amazing alacrity and temerity, no holds barred. They secretly laugh at us for our ridiculous withholding of violence and counter-strikes as they see it, and hospitals are just so much fodder for their aggression. Did the Afghans set up to us to carry out the strike? I wouldn't doubt it, I wouldn't doubt it at all. And anyone who has witnessed the Middle East and its conflicts played out over the years, wouldn't rule them out, either.
The hate these people have for each other makes the Hatfield and McCoys look like a wedding. L
How anyone can be a warmonger who scrupulously follows the Rules of Engagement that we put on ourselves? Well, they shouldn't be. But war, and sectarian killing at a level we don't understand, is commonplace for the Afghans as well as the Iraqis the Yemeni forces, the Libyans, Saudis, et.al. The entire Middle East seems to be willing to kill each other with amazing alacrity and temerity, no holds barred. They secretly laugh at us for our ridiculous withholding of violence and counter-strikes as they see it, and hospitals are just so much fodder for their aggression. Did the Afghans set up to us to carry out the strike? I wouldn't doubt it, I wouldn't doubt it at all. And anyone who has witnessed the Middle East and its conflicts played out over the years, wouldn't rule them out, either.
The hate these people have for each other makes the Hatfield and McCoys look like a wedding. L
5
As a young student in the UK this article was eye-opening to say the least.
The stories of heroes like Esmat were extremely moving, and I found it at times hard to believe what I was reading is a reality for some. Above all, this article highlighted the lack of transparency and accountability within the defence industry that desperately needs to be addressed.
My thanks again to Matthieu Aikins for this touching piece.
The stories of heroes like Esmat were extremely moving, and I found it at times hard to believe what I was reading is a reality for some. Above all, this article highlighted the lack of transparency and accountability within the defence industry that desperately needs to be addressed.
My thanks again to Matthieu Aikins for this touching piece.
3
"Self-defense of others." Obviously a work around of the cumbersome normal rules of engagement requiring several levels of approval. Seems to be the functional equivalent of "free fire zone."
Is this how commanders on the ground get around the unworkable rules of engagement resulting from confused policy goals? Would be interesting to know how often the "self-defense of others" rubric is employed, both as an absolute number and a percentage of missions undertaken.
As to the question of whether the Afghans manipulated us into destroying that target, I'd guess that they did. For decades, Afghans and their families have lived and died according to how well they figure the foreigners out. Many know us and our systems better than we do.
Is this how commanders on the ground get around the unworkable rules of engagement resulting from confused policy goals? Would be interesting to know how often the "self-defense of others" rubric is employed, both as an absolute number and a percentage of missions undertaken.
As to the question of whether the Afghans manipulated us into destroying that target, I'd guess that they did. For decades, Afghans and their families have lived and died according to how well they figure the foreigners out. Many know us and our systems better than we do.
2
With American far superior technology. Bombing Afghanistan from Florida, it is both unacceptable and unbelievable that it was an accidents.Other recent event reminds us of the bombing of a funeral procession,also in Afghanistan, which led to the cold blooded massacre of tens of participants.....to recall only the more publicized heroic achievement of American arms.
If America is no longer in control of its high tech driven,and aimed, objectives it should rather desist from their use until perfected.
The irony of the whole situation, equally a grave tragedy, is that with the USA attempting to reduce its human loss through hi tech it is increasing human loss in other by direct action and or accidents!
Unacceptable by any standard and only serves to confirm American non sensitivity, and the no concern, to and towards others!
If America is no longer in control of its high tech driven,and aimed, objectives it should rather desist from their use until perfected.
The irony of the whole situation, equally a grave tragedy, is that with the USA attempting to reduce its human loss through hi tech it is increasing human loss in other by direct action and or accidents!
Unacceptable by any standard and only serves to confirm American non sensitivity, and the no concern, to and towards others!
1
Ignored in comments, though alluded to in the article, is the question of whether "neutrality" can exist in an active war zone, especially in the midst of a civil war that is largely fought in guerrilla terms.
MSF tends to be considered beyond reproach, certainly in these columns, an example of highly ethical, altruistic, and heroic benevolence. I just wonder how many readers would be thrilled if MSF saved the life and fighting ability of someone who had killed his or her family and then turned that person loose.
I don't have the answer but the question is legitimate. Though most readers consider MSF as highly moral, I believe as good a case can be made that it is not moral but amoral and, in certain contexts, could be considered immoral.
Many commenters to this and other articles display a tacit belief in American exceptionalism. Such usually does not lead to either an accurate portrayal of reality or the creation of good policies. Interestingly, it takes opposing forms: America is either the source of all good or all evil in the world. Some of the Most Recommended comments here frequently are of the America-Is-The-Cause-Of-All-Evil variety, refusing to even consider alternative possibilities as to what happened in the airstrike on the MSF hospital in Kunduz. If one wants to make the world a better place, it helps if we deal with reality, not with the way wish it were or the way we fear it is.
MSF tends to be considered beyond reproach, certainly in these columns, an example of highly ethical, altruistic, and heroic benevolence. I just wonder how many readers would be thrilled if MSF saved the life and fighting ability of someone who had killed his or her family and then turned that person loose.
I don't have the answer but the question is legitimate. Though most readers consider MSF as highly moral, I believe as good a case can be made that it is not moral but amoral and, in certain contexts, could be considered immoral.
Many commenters to this and other articles display a tacit belief in American exceptionalism. Such usually does not lead to either an accurate portrayal of reality or the creation of good policies. Interestingly, it takes opposing forms: America is either the source of all good or all evil in the world. Some of the Most Recommended comments here frequently are of the America-Is-The-Cause-Of-All-Evil variety, refusing to even consider alternative possibilities as to what happened in the airstrike on the MSF hospital in Kunduz. If one wants to make the world a better place, it helps if we deal with reality, not with the way wish it were or the way we fear it is.
6
The question is not legitimate. I was a soldier and a medic. The Geneva convention is clear : a wounded person is a wounded person. If you don't accept that, you have no place in the military, much less military adventures a la Afghanistan.
2
So many amateur deducers here making broad proclamations. How long SHOULD it take to train these troops? What expertise guides your estimate? Where are you getting your facts?
I don't believe for a second that the military is incompetent. Way too much money is on the line for everyone involved. So I'm sure there is a reason for everything that happens. That reason may be cold and calculating, but I for one could really care less.
So for those who keep shouting to send our troops home - don't you think those generals and decision-makers want to send them home, if only for purely selfish reasons? You think they want defeat on their records? To trivialize everything - as a refusal to admit defeat, a matter of pride, or just base greed - is to trivialize the people involved as Saturday-Morning Cartoon Villains. Which are caricatures, and don't actually exist in the real world.
People are complicated. The world is complicated. Stop pretending you can make a better analysis from your armchair, using what you read in the newspaper, than all the generals in the US army.
I don't believe for a second that the military is incompetent. Way too much money is on the line for everyone involved. So I'm sure there is a reason for everything that happens. That reason may be cold and calculating, but I for one could really care less.
So for those who keep shouting to send our troops home - don't you think those generals and decision-makers want to send them home, if only for purely selfish reasons? You think they want defeat on their records? To trivialize everything - as a refusal to admit defeat, a matter of pride, or just base greed - is to trivialize the people involved as Saturday-Morning Cartoon Villains. Which are caricatures, and don't actually exist in the real world.
People are complicated. The world is complicated. Stop pretending you can make a better analysis from your armchair, using what you read in the newspaper, than all the generals in the US army.
7
This article boils down to: we didn't know, we thought we were 100% doing the right thing, it was a total accident. I'm not sure we'd accept that explanation from a paperboy delivering the Times to the wrong address.
1
The attack on the hospital is a war crime. How and why it happened should be discussed in a court of law, not in the newspaper.
4
Most of these do-gooders are actually sympathizers with our enemies.....
1
I know several MSF doctors, including a Norwegian pediatrician who had two stints of treating war-wounded children at the Kunduz hospital. You might dismiss these humanitarian professionals as "do- gooders"' in reality they are highly trained physicians who are doing whatever they can to ease the suffering of the underserved, worldwide. MSF has no political affiliation, and these doctors treat those in need regardless of which side they're on. Indeed, they are fulfilling the stated mission of all physicians to administer treatment to anyone in need. There have been more than 360 deliberate attacks on MSF and other medical facilities in war-torn countries in recent years--these attacks are war crimes, and should be treated as such, even if it's Americans doing the killing. In the Kunduz attack, US forces were well aware of the hospital coordinates, and calling it a tragic mistake is a blatant lie.
5
Right good point, all them thar libruls love men who throw stones and acid at women they despise, destroy ancient artifacts, and espouse theocracies. Yeh that's librulism alright.
2
The sheer simplicity of some people's capacity for sound ethical judgement is amazing. The idea that the doctors at MSF are motivated by a secret sharing of the Taliban's fundamentalist ideology shows a total disconnect with reality. We talk of irrational tribal politics in places like Afghanistan. There is little hope for meaningful democracy in our country when our own politics have devolved to a level that so discourages critical thinking.
1
We are being used by people we do not understand even after 15 years. We need to pack and go home, there is ZERO possibility we can achieve anything in the next 15 years, that we failed to achieve in the previous. Our government is wasting our tax dollars in the trillions, and costing American lives.
The same thing goes for Syria, we can't fix it and we are making things worse by fighting the government (yes, we are as per Brett McGurk on Charlie Rose last week), and causing the deaths of Christians in Allepo and adding to the mystery of civilians. My Uber driver the other day was a Sunni Muslim from Syria who has been in US for 25 years but has family in Syria. He supports Assad's government. Secular Sunnis support the government, Christians support the government, why are we fighting the government?
The same thing goes for Syria, we can't fix it and we are making things worse by fighting the government (yes, we are as per Brett McGurk on Charlie Rose last week), and causing the deaths of Christians in Allepo and adding to the mystery of civilians. My Uber driver the other day was a Sunni Muslim from Syria who has been in US for 25 years but has family in Syria. He supports Assad's government. Secular Sunnis support the government, Christians support the government, why are we fighting the government?
4
I have to say that the article's headline, and central thesis, sounds alarmingly like yellow journalism. The article goes into great detail about the fact that Afghan military forces resent the hospital for treating insurgents. But to make the claim that they then knowingly targeting the hospital, and its civilians, is a vast chasm to leap across. The evidence offered to support this claim is extremely tenuous, and contradicted by the US Military's own analysis of what happened.
"Is Obama a Muslim?"
"Do Jews run the Media?"
"Did Afghan forces target a hospital for bombing?"
Please show a little judgement before firing off an incendiary headline like the above.
www.outlookzen.com
"Is Obama a Muslim?"
"Do Jews run the Media?"
"Did Afghan forces target a hospital for bombing?"
Please show a little judgement before firing off an incendiary headline like the above.
www.outlookzen.com
4
Dear RP,
I have to point out that in all likelihood the article's headline is completely accurate, because this is the way the Afghan government and culture operates. So I think your claim that this is incendiary is off the mark; this is simply realistic. To point out that Afghanistan is corrupt, violent, and medieval is not racist, it's just factual.
I have to point out that in all likelihood the article's headline is completely accurate, because this is the way the Afghan government and culture operates. So I think your claim that this is incendiary is off the mark; this is simply realistic. To point out that Afghanistan is corrupt, violent, and medieval is not racist, it's just factual.
1
The 42 killed at the hospital - Tragic. The other 800 Civilians killed or injured - Tragic. I blame the Taliban - 1000%. (From the article "The United Nations estimates that 13,000 families were displaced by the fighting and that 848 civilians were killed or injured")
6
American exceptionalism usually does not lead to either an accurate portrayal of reality or the creation of good policies. Interestingly, it takes opposing forms: America is either the source of all good or all evil in the world. Some of the Most Recommended comments here frequently are of the America-Is-The-Cause-Of-All-Evil variety, refusing to even consider alternative possibilities as to what happened in the airstrike on the MSF hospital in Kunduz. If one wants to make the world a better place, it helps if we deal with reality, not with the way wish it were or the way we fear it is.
Ignored in comments, though alluded to in the article, is the question of whether "neutrality" can exist in a war zone, especially in the midst of a civil war that is largely fought in guerrilla terms.
MSF tends to be considered beyond reproach, certainly in these columns, an example of highly ethical, altruistic, and heroic benevolence. I just wonder how many readers would be thrilled if MSF saved the life and fighting ability of someone who had killed his or her family and then turned that person loose.
Ignored in comments, though alluded to in the article, is the question of whether "neutrality" can exist in a war zone, especially in the midst of a civil war that is largely fought in guerrilla terms.
MSF tends to be considered beyond reproach, certainly in these columns, an example of highly ethical, altruistic, and heroic benevolence. I just wonder how many readers would be thrilled if MSF saved the life and fighting ability of someone who had killed his or her family and then turned that person loose.
5
MSF makes certain that the US Military has up to date GPS coordinates of their facilities. I am deeply offended that this was done in my name. I would encourage every one who feels as I do to give to MSF preferably monthly so they can budget accordingly. As far as the use of the US military is concerned...fight to win or don't fight at all...Let's not act like our enemies.
1
You do realize that we are asked to do more and more missions and everything breaks. The high gain antenna broke down after years of service and if we did not give the airstrikes you would complain about "our boys " coming back in stretchers
1
Like something you'd expect to read about Saddam Hussein doing. And the MSM, save this reporter, seems to be spoon feeding us 24 hour campaign news in lieu of this sort of goon squad behavior .
2
Lisa, neutral medical facilities are obligated to treat everyone, including combatants from both sides. That's the definition of "neutral"; it is not peculiar to MSF. And MSF strictly forbade weapons in the hospital. It was in no way shape or form a legitimate military target, and in fact, when (apparently) Russian/Syrian forces bombed similar facilities in Syria a few weeks ago, the U.S. raised holy hell about it.
And for that matter, attacking a military hospital (e.g., if the Taliban attacked a U.S. facility, or vice versa) is ALSO a war crime. The principles involved are a) that you are not allowed to knowingly murder people who are not involved in combat; and b) you are not allowed to destroy medical facilities.
The fact that you and many others don't even understand these basic humanitarian principles reflects the fact that the U.S. government has made "total war" -- the slaughter of civilians and destruction of civilian facilities, the torture and murder of noncombatants and so on -- a core part of its military doctrine. (See for instance the book by Nick Turse, Kill Anything That Moves: The Real American War in Vietnam. )
The real "defense" of all of these crimes is that "we" did them, and therefore, "by definition," they can't possibly be war crimes -- "war crimes" are only committed by our "enemies."
And for that matter, attacking a military hospital (e.g., if the Taliban attacked a U.S. facility, or vice versa) is ALSO a war crime. The principles involved are a) that you are not allowed to knowingly murder people who are not involved in combat; and b) you are not allowed to destroy medical facilities.
The fact that you and many others don't even understand these basic humanitarian principles reflects the fact that the U.S. government has made "total war" -- the slaughter of civilians and destruction of civilian facilities, the torture and murder of noncombatants and so on -- a core part of its military doctrine. (See for instance the book by Nick Turse, Kill Anything That Moves: The Real American War in Vietnam. )
The real "defense" of all of these crimes is that "we" did them, and therefore, "by definition," they can't possibly be war crimes -- "war crimes" are only committed by our "enemies."
4
Hi
Did anyone get the data from Compass Call?
I was core cadre on that project 82-88 and I just found out that they acknowledge that it operates with special forces.
It should have every signal on that engagement. At least it's capable of doing that. Heck Security Service was afraid it was going to replace EC-135 for tactical signals intelligence collection in 86.
It probably has. A lot has been added since 88.
It appears part of this story is intentionally missing.
There a big rat in here somewhere. Especially that on scene commander being put back into the exec slot. He got used by the system or was part of it.
Someone needs to go down to Davis-Monthan AFB and start talking to 41 ECS...They are not the rat but they almost certainly do know the rat.
http://www.af.mil/AboutUs/FactSheets/Display/tabid/224/Article/104550/ec...
Dave
Did anyone get the data from Compass Call?
I was core cadre on that project 82-88 and I just found out that they acknowledge that it operates with special forces.
It should have every signal on that engagement. At least it's capable of doing that. Heck Security Service was afraid it was going to replace EC-135 for tactical signals intelligence collection in 86.
It probably has. A lot has been added since 88.
It appears part of this story is intentionally missing.
There a big rat in here somewhere. Especially that on scene commander being put back into the exec slot. He got used by the system or was part of it.
Someone needs to go down to Davis-Monthan AFB and start talking to 41 ECS...They are not the rat but they almost certainly do know the rat.
http://www.af.mil/AboutUs/FactSheets/Display/tabid/224/Article/104550/ec...
Dave
6
A few suggestions to, at the very least, reduce the number and plausibility of excuses when this happens:
1) All radios and cell phones are turned off and placed in lockers, just as guns are, when patients enter a hospital.
2) All MSF roof markings must include a red crescent (or whatever religious symbol is appropriate for the country).
3) All US troops and those working with them must be familiar with the initials MSF.
1) All radios and cell phones are turned off and placed in lockers, just as guns are, when patients enter a hospital.
2) All MSF roof markings must include a red crescent (or whatever religious symbol is appropriate for the country).
3) All US troops and those working with them must be familiar with the initials MSF.
7
When wars occur, there is valuable property to be stolen.
I suggest that all wars have this as first motive for the perpetrators.
Let us never forget the Iraq War
I suggest that all wars have this as first motive for the perpetrators.
Let us never forget the Iraq War
4
What to do? That's a question that could have been answered at the beginning of the B/C Administration years ago, but they got the answer very Wrong.
2
What a messed-up country and population. Wish we could just "walk away."
But, then that gives the Taliban free rein over everyone, to abuse as they have done in the past -- esp the women.
And...gives them time to plot more U.S. attacks. What to do??
But, then that gives the Taliban free rein over everyone, to abuse as they have done in the past -- esp the women.
And...gives them time to plot more U.S. attacks. What to do??
10
Unfortunately no matter when we leave the Taliban will take over the next day.
14
If they want to abuse their own citizens there's nothing we can do. When will Americans realize we're not appointed by anyone to be the world's policeman! If they attack us again from there - we obliterate them. Period.
4
News Flash: The Taliban are dyed-in-the-wool Afghan nationalists, very much in tune with Afghan social, cultural and religious sensibilities. Unlike most Americans, most Afghanis seem to strongly value the "old ways", and strive to keep them. That's the way many seem to want to live.
So, there's little prospect of America ever defeating the Taliban militarily. They will fight us as long as we care to fight. No foreign invader has ever succeeded in subduing the Afghanis militarily. Not Alexander the Great, not the British, not the Russians. And not the Americans.
So, there's little prospect of America ever defeating the Taliban militarily. They will fight us as long as we care to fight. No foreign invader has ever succeeded in subduing the Afghanis militarily. Not Alexander the Great, not the British, not the Russians. And not the Americans.
2
This attack is an example of what happens both in war and in civilian life when you combine secrecy and a lack of accountability. Unfortunately President Obama puts a high priority on secrecy and no accountability across the board: in our forever war, in civilian life, and in the gray zone of Homeland Security. All this despite his legal credentials.
10
I'm sorry, you are just plain wrong about that. Try not to let your silly political opinions color your judgement of the facts.
2
Unfortunately, Bush was prescient when he predicted that Obama would follow the same ME policy as he did throughout his 2 mandates.Obama's tenure is coming to an end,and we r still at war in IRAK.What became of our anti war chief of state?If O can't offer or carry through with a policy no more creative than dropping bombs on the adversary,at a million dollars per sortie, then how have the American people benefited from his presence as c-in-c? And how can he acquire a knowledge of the ME and solve its problems if he does not know even the rudiments of Arabic and Farsi, and has only seen the region during official visits? Likewise for HRC when she was sec. of state, a position she was not prepared for.Christopher ROSS, former US Ambassador to Algeria whom I came to know during my stay there in the early 1990's,spoke fluent Arabic, according to reporters who interviewed him. We need more FS officers like Ross in our diplomatic cops, and fewer aficionados like Clinton.
1
Yet he ran and won the Presidency on the promise of greater governmental TRANSPARENCY.
I think the article is somewhat disingenuous in its attempt to blame the Afgan forces for the attack on the hospital. If the building was lit in the middle of a city which had been without electricity for days, it would be crazy to assume that it was an enemy outpost. If he was in good faith, the commander of the aircraft should have had second thoughts about attacking such a target unless he assumed the Taliban were in a suicidal mood and wanted to attract the attention of Americans gunships in the area. He should definitely have communicated to his contact that they had been asked to attack a target that was trying to make itself quite visible, unlikely behavior for an enemy who knew they were constantly targeted by American air power. I tend to agree with some of the other commentators that it was not a mistake. Perhaps it was a decision based on intelligence that Taliban commanders were at the place and civilian casualties had to be accepted to eliminate Taliban leadership and, thus, weaken their offensive. We are indeed in a no-win situation where our forces are taken advantage of and used to prop an incompetent and corrupt political system. Perhaps it is time to stop the Bush war by talking directly to the Talibans. If Kabul cannot stand up to the Talibans now with all the American support, I do not see how the present regime can survive when we leave.
16
MSF opens a hospital behind insurgent lines, allows some Taliban caretakers to bring in hand-held radios - accepts some high-ranking Taliban patients - allows some Taliban vehicles inside the hospital to drop off critically injured patients. MSF claims neutrality but do governments understand what that means? THIS situation is HIGHLY UNIQUE. To twist it (what I call a lot of MSF advocacy) as if hospitals are being bombed without discrimination is spotlighting MSF's blind spot. Since 2011, the Afghani government has suspected MSF of aiding the Taliban. When violently confronted, MSF employed strong arm tactics (closing the clinic until getting an apology) instead of working with the government to ensure that it was more comfortable with its operations. You see, MSF doesn't play well with others. Perhaps instead of acting out about the "sanctity of the hospital being violated" MSF should've worked with the government to ensure that it was confident in the neutrality of the operation. Yes, hospital bombing is wrong. But working in S Sudan-seeing MSF tactics (our way or the highway) one would start to wonder if the org's hospital bombing issue is partly to do with how it (dis)engages with host governments. MSF has treated patients in areas where no one else will go. But my experience with MSF has been that it can often do just as much harm as good (e.g. withholding utilization data from govt and partners, overpaying national staff, etc). The god complex is real.
13
Dear Lisa,
A few points on your comments :
No VHF hand-held were allowed in MSF Kunduz Trauma Center. They were stored with the weapons at the hospital entrance.
The Taliban vehicles who were entering the premise with seriously injured patients were dropping them and requested to leave immediately, like the Afghan forces ones.
MSF did not wait for your kind advice for advocating its neutrality and impartiality values to government and opposition forces neither for holding meeting at all levels to ensure its operations acceptance.
If you think MSF keeps its distance with host government, it is explained by its neutral position in order for this principle to be respected by all actors, this is why MSF can work in heavy conflict zone.
Writing that MSF does not share its data is wrong and I really wonder where you saw that MSF was overpaying the national staff...
Kindest regards
A few points on your comments :
No VHF hand-held were allowed in MSF Kunduz Trauma Center. They were stored with the weapons at the hospital entrance.
The Taliban vehicles who were entering the premise with seriously injured patients were dropping them and requested to leave immediately, like the Afghan forces ones.
MSF did not wait for your kind advice for advocating its neutrality and impartiality values to government and opposition forces neither for holding meeting at all levels to ensure its operations acceptance.
If you think MSF keeps its distance with host government, it is explained by its neutral position in order for this principle to be respected by all actors, this is why MSF can work in heavy conflict zone.
Writing that MSF does not share its data is wrong and I really wonder where you saw that MSF was overpaying the national staff...
Kindest regards
1
So by following agreed upon field practice and protocol, adhering to the Geneva Convention, and being faithful to the Hippocrates Oath, MSF hospitals deserve to be obliterated?!
1
as an Afghan I do not believe your claims. how the Taliban can leave an injured Afghan soldier alone in the hospital, while they abducted regular citizens in Zabul, and beheaded them, including a young teenage girl and an old elderly lady? and if that happens and you really treat Afghan soldiers the same way you treat the Taliban fighters then why there is this resentment among the Afghan forces ( and vast parts of population) against you? do you think that they are all crazy, and only the good humane peaceful Taliban can understand your cause?
It escapes me why the hospital did not have a large red cross painted on its roof, preferably in reflective paint that would show up better at night? Should't MSF have done it, to identify themselves. Shouldn't the U.S. have done it, knowing that they would be conducting air strikes in the city? Why was this apparently easy and inexpensive solution not implemented?
13
Good point but in that area, a red crescent would be a much better idea. The cross thing doesn't go over too well there.
1
There are two reasons why a red cross wouldn't have helped in this situation.
First, patently obvious, is that Afghanistan, being a Muslim country, abhors crosses, red or otherwise. In Muslim countries, a red crescent serves as the medical emblem.
Secondly, as extensively discussed in the article, there is very strong evidence that the hospital was DELIBERATELY targeted by the Afghan government forces. The MSF doctors and management were well aware of this hostility. Significant markings on the roof of the building would have only aided in the targeting effort. American armed forces appear to have duped into the Afghan gov't "line" that the hospital had been overrun by Taliban forces, and had become a legitimate target; many still strongly believe that was the actual case, despite reporting to the contrary.
First, patently obvious, is that Afghanistan, being a Muslim country, abhors crosses, red or otherwise. In Muslim countries, a red crescent serves as the medical emblem.
Secondly, as extensively discussed in the article, there is very strong evidence that the hospital was DELIBERATELY targeted by the Afghan government forces. The MSF doctors and management were well aware of this hostility. Significant markings on the roof of the building would have only aided in the targeting effort. American armed forces appear to have duped into the Afghan gov't "line" that the hospital had been overrun by Taliban forces, and had become a legitimate target; many still strongly believe that was the actual case, despite reporting to the contrary.
1
The coordinates were known. War criminals!
1
We should all be appalled by this terrible story. JGAIA- (WW2 AirForce Veteran).
8
Thank you for this reporting. There is a lot to unpack here, but I come away from this piece with a couple of new thoughts (vs. the earlier articles in The Times):
1. We got played.
2. What exactly does success look like for these advisory roles? How can we keep our people there with a poorly-defined mission (when the Afghans they are supposed to be helping flee)? Mistakes will indeed be made under the best of circumstances; more likely under these. It should all be in service of an achievable objective. Which I cannot discern here.
3. In spite of #2, it looks like the military wants to pin this tragedy on the Major on the ground and the others who operated the mission that night, rather than on those responsible for the larger decisions that put them there under the ambiguous rules of engagement. (Seems like CYA to me.)
It's war. Plus ca change.
1. We got played.
2. What exactly does success look like for these advisory roles? How can we keep our people there with a poorly-defined mission (when the Afghans they are supposed to be helping flee)? Mistakes will indeed be made under the best of circumstances; more likely under these. It should all be in service of an achievable objective. Which I cannot discern here.
3. In spite of #2, it looks like the military wants to pin this tragedy on the Major on the ground and the others who operated the mission that night, rather than on those responsible for the larger decisions that put them there under the ambiguous rules of engagement. (Seems like CYA to me.)
It's war. Plus ca change.
21
It sounds like Mission Creep, Redux. One contingent in the never-ending Afghani civil war appears to have drawn United States forces into being their stooges-bullies. Does this really serve our long-term national interests in any meaningful way? Or are we just propping up another corrupt regime, that can not survive without our constant military and financial support?
It does not appear that there is any prospect of success in Afghanistan in the future. So why are we still there?
It does not appear that there is any prospect of success in Afghanistan in the future. So why are we still there?
13
Hutchinson really screwed up. As the planner of the operation and with the only map of the city, he should have known his targets and immediately recognized the target description given to him by the Afghanies as the MSF hospital. Combined with him not having US eyes on the target, he should bear the brunt of the blame.
4
Who "accidentally" blows up a hospital? Also kissam3 is right why would warplanes target anyone or anything in that area?
4
Well, most militaries have accidentally targeted a hospital at some point, some have done so on purpose. And the reason for bombing the area was that the taliban had occupied it.
6
How naive do you have to be to believe anything promised in the middle of a proverbial (and literal) battlefield? Especially when you are openly helping both sides? Humanitarian aid is a great ideal, but it's only an ideal. It prolongs suffering and leads to no lasting change.
3
What I would like to know is this: how many Afghan civilians have we killed that we don't know about because they weren't affiliated with an international NGO?
4
That's such a pertinent question, Linda. What has our involvement in Afghanistan REALLY done for the Afghani general public, except bring incessant strife, turmoil, injury and indiscriminate death to them, in very generous measure? Except for the corruptly wealthy, it seems we have added very little of a positive nature to most Afghani lives.
8
Dear Michael B.,
I think it should be noted that before 2001, Afghanistan was embroiled in incessant strife, turmoil, injury and indiscriminate death, mostly at the hands of the taliban. But you're right that we didn't manage to change that, and it seems doubtful that we can.
I think it should be noted that before 2001, Afghanistan was embroiled in incessant strife, turmoil, injury and indiscriminate death, mostly at the hands of the taliban. But you're right that we didn't manage to change that, and it seems doubtful that we can.
2
I can only pray for the hundreds of doctors that put their life on the line in conflict zones. This was a heart-wrenching article about a major travesty and error by our armed services. We cannot go on making these sort of errors or our reputation as a nation is at stake. Hutchinson should have been disciplined and never given any other leadership role. I thought we had learned our lesson from the My Lai Massacre during the Vietnam War.
6
Evidently, the US has a new reputation. You're remembering the old one we used to have.
Our "heroes" are little more than reckless cowboys that don't care what they kill, so in order to maintain that hero myth, a scapegoat must be found. Enter the "blame the Afghan" theme. Try an independent investigation by a body that doesn't have a material interest in fetishizing America's military before you call this case closed.
9
Your post about the American military men and women is pure rubbish. You should be ashamed.
An accident happened. That's it.
Notice that none of you atheist Marxist liberals or the NYTs complain about the Russian bombing of a hospital in Syria.
An accident happened. That's it.
Notice that none of you atheist Marxist liberals or the NYTs complain about the Russian bombing of a hospital in Syria.
13
William--I did. But, I'm just a progressive, not a Marxist. Not that you would know the difference.
1
William, I think most of us have decided that Russia is pretty much a bad actor top to bottom, but hope that America can try to do better than Russia. I agree that our military was misled but we need admit when misjudgments are made and figure out ways not repeat them. That is what makes us who we are.
2
Sadly this is what happens when you fight a war with the enemy. And by that I mean working alongside people who think it is alright to chain young children for sexual gratification, just like a trophy. I am finding it hard to believe that this is not a society rotten to the core. So we supported them...and their vile behaviour. Brings America to its lowest point once again. These societies do not share what used to be America's values. Over & over again we have read about charity workers killed helping in the Middle East. I just ask why they bother.
9
Afghanistan has *always* been a society rotten to the core, primarily thanks to the rotten to the core Islamic religion.
The U.S. should have never attempted nation building there. It is a complete act of futility.
The U.S. should have never attempted nation building there. It is a complete act of futility.
12
To what do you attribute the rottenness, both historical and the widely reported current stench, of your state of Alabama, where all three branches of government are under investigation? Might it be partly due to some version of Christianity preached and practiced there?
And before anyone attacks, my state of origin, Mississippi, is also still smelling to high heaven. Why just today the Cleveland school district was ordered yet again to implement desegregation ordered by a federal court in 1969. 1969 is not a typo.
And before anyone attacks, my state of origin, Mississippi, is also still smelling to high heaven. Why just today the Cleveland school district was ordered yet again to implement desegregation ordered by a federal court in 1969. 1969 is not a typo.
1
Nearly 15 years in Afghanistan, countless lives needlessly lost and ruined, countless wealth squandered, essentially for nothing. We do not understand the history and culture of Afghanistan and the natives have exploited these failings to the hilt, as they have many times in the past with foreign invaders.
Afghanistan is a feudal, tribal country that we cannot control or really influence no matter how long our armed forces stay there. Essentially, outside of Kabul, it's still the 14th century. The Taliban, the various war lords and the age old ways of life will be there when we finally leave and the people know that we will leave at some point.... and they can wait us out as they have all of the others. if Afghanistan moves at all toward modernity, it will not be because of foreign invaders, a fact which has been well established over many centuries.
Doctors Without Borders is a truly heroic organization in the finest traditions of medicine and humanity. They have a long record of international humanitarian service, are widely respect and certainly deserve our protection of their hospital/medical facilities .....under The Geneva Conventions and our own codes of military conduct. This is an egregious incident... and no way to win hearts and minds and any type of allegiance in Afghanistan or anywhere else. Afghanistan continues to be a no win situation for us; it's time to recognize that.
.
Afghanistan is a feudal, tribal country that we cannot control or really influence no matter how long our armed forces stay there. Essentially, outside of Kabul, it's still the 14th century. The Taliban, the various war lords and the age old ways of life will be there when we finally leave and the people know that we will leave at some point.... and they can wait us out as they have all of the others. if Afghanistan moves at all toward modernity, it will not be because of foreign invaders, a fact which has been well established over many centuries.
Doctors Without Borders is a truly heroic organization in the finest traditions of medicine and humanity. They have a long record of international humanitarian service, are widely respect and certainly deserve our protection of their hospital/medical facilities .....under The Geneva Conventions and our own codes of military conduct. This is an egregious incident... and no way to win hearts and minds and any type of allegiance in Afghanistan or anywhere else. Afghanistan continues to be a no win situation for us; it's time to recognize that.
.
14
Why are warplanes targeting anyone or anything in this area? Who still believes in surgical strikes? Perhaps the word of the day should be "disingenuous".
1
Dear Kissam3,
Aerial strikes are commonly used against the taliban because it's a good way to reduce their numbers. And this strike was a surgical strike, the precision of the demolition of the main building was remarkable, as noted in the article. If it hadn't been a mistaken hit on a hospital, there wouldn't have been any complaints about it, because asides from that one factor, it was an exemplary airstrike.
Aerial strikes are commonly used against the taliban because it's a good way to reduce their numbers. And this strike was a surgical strike, the precision of the demolition of the main building was remarkable, as noted in the article. If it hadn't been a mistaken hit on a hospital, there wouldn't have been any complaints about it, because asides from that one factor, it was an exemplary airstrike.
2
This strike was pretty surgical.
2
You better wake up and see this for what it is: war for profit. There is no excuse to bomb a hospital. And people still think they hate us because they ain't us. If my son died because some foreign country bombed the hospital he was in, you better believe I'd strap one on too. We are creating enemies that will last generations, there is no coming back from the pain, hopelessness and just absolute rage our military campaigns are causing throughout the Middle East. The 9/11 pilots (if any) were Saudis, Osama is dead, so, ask yourselves, why are we still there? These sentiments will one day manifest themselves on U.S. soil, and without having made a dime from the chaos, we will pay with our blood.
7
this sums it up perfectly
“If someone must be held accountable, let it not be the man who was ordered to sky-dive without being given a parachute,” a Green Beret officer in Kunduz — his name is redacted — said, complaining of “moral cowardice” and an “abject failure of leadership.”
“If someone must be held accountable, let it not be the man who was ordered to sky-dive without being given a parachute,” a Green Beret officer in Kunduz — his name is redacted — said, complaining of “moral cowardice” and an “abject failure of leadership.”
10
NYTimes reporter Joe Goldstein earlier reported that this hospital had a large and brightly lit "MSF" flag on the roof. Why wasn't this mentioned in the article?
4
Could be because it was found not to be true, as preliminary reports are almost always incorrect.
1
It IS mentioned in the article.
Can the NYTimes do an investigative piece on who is profiting from our continual presence in Afghanistan? After 15 years, I think it is safe to say - that we can not help that country. Anything we thought we achieved - seems to quickly unravel the moment we step away. I have to conclude that there are people who are profiting by this and therefore advocate for our continued presence and money. Who are these People?
5
This is about training. Soldiers fight as they are trained to. The training they receive is defined and prioritized at the senior leadership level (generals). This fiasco was a failure of training that throwing some grunts under a bus (the standard Army response these days) will not erase. This story provides many examples such as unquestioning acceptance of intel provided by Afghans, and failing to put a premium on identifying and ensuring that ground troops were aware of presumptively off-limits protected buildings (hospitals, schools, orphanages, mosques). At root, the problem is a senior leadership culture that just wants to start shooting to make it all go away, whatever it is, and to clean up the mess later. Soldiers aren't stupid - they understand what their leadership wants them to do, and they do it. This is a problem at the top, not the bottom.
3
Even this headline is scared to say "American Target". No way did US Forces "mistakenly" attack a hospital on behalf of Afghanis. This was an American target. It is impossible to believe that our Special Forces and air support did not know exactly what they were attacking. Of course they did. There was a target in that building, and the other people who died were collateral damage. It is arguable, and perhaps even true, that only a few dozen dead from collateral damage is not too bad, especially compared with a drone strike that may do far more collateral damage.
If the goal of the mission is to eliminate a target, and that target goes and hides in an MSF hospital thinking they are safe, this operation has shown them otherwise. This is war and it is ugly.
If the goal of the mission is to eliminate a target, and that target goes and hides in an MSF hospital thinking they are safe, this operation has shown them otherwise. This is war and it is ugly.
2
The United States has been a significant military presence in Afghanistan since 2001. It has been referred to many times as America's longest war, even though, as usual, there has been no official declaration of war from our government. In this over 8,400-word article--with its meticulously quoted half-truths and conflicting single-, double-, and triple-redacted reports, interviews, testimony, denials, and shame-faced lies--the attempt to directly pinpoint the responsibility or blame on the atrocious bombing of the hospital in Kunduz seems as impossible as tossing a dart from midtown Manhattan and hitting a bulls-eye in a London pub. The denials that many of those involved in this crime even knowing that the structure was a hospital are as hollow as a politician's head.
In the fifteen years we have had armed forces, in differing capacities and strengths, we could have had a five-year-old child ride a tricycle through Kunduz and, with crayons and construction paper, properly map every street and building in the city, and mail it book rate through an Afghani Post Office to the Pentagon. It still would have arrived in time for this outrage to have been avoided.
There is no one to blame because everyone is to blame. We are still in Afghanistan trying to form a democratic government which will never be formed. We are doing a good job protecting the opium crops. And all we are actually doing is preventing Afghanistan from becoming Afghanistan, whatever that may be.
In the fifteen years we have had armed forces, in differing capacities and strengths, we could have had a five-year-old child ride a tricycle through Kunduz and, with crayons and construction paper, properly map every street and building in the city, and mail it book rate through an Afghani Post Office to the Pentagon. It still would have arrived in time for this outrage to have been avoided.
There is no one to blame because everyone is to blame. We are still in Afghanistan trying to form a democratic government which will never be formed. We are doing a good job protecting the opium crops. And all we are actually doing is preventing Afghanistan from becoming Afghanistan, whatever that may be.
8
As usual, no one reads the article. The complexity of the issues impinging on this event is stunning. You want to find fault blame yourself for not ending war. You want war, you get this. It needs to be investigated and it appears as though it was. You want fault. How about anyone thinking that they can create a neutral actor in such a hostile environment.
8
This is the perfect example of the "leading from behind" credo of Obama.
Either get in there with the full force of the U.S. military, or get out completely. To ask these handful of U.S. special forces to retake the entire city by occupying the police station in the center of town, when thousands of Afghanistan's own refuse to participate in the task (!!!), is absolutely ridiculous. It is not Hutchinson's fault; blame the Commander in Chief.
Either get in there with the full force of the U.S. military, or get out completely. To ask these handful of U.S. special forces to retake the entire city by occupying the police station in the center of town, when thousands of Afghanistan's own refuse to participate in the task (!!!), is absolutely ridiculous. It is not Hutchinson's fault; blame the Commander in Chief.
10
Yes - lets just blame the Afghans, why dont we…instead of calling it what it is: Collateral Damage - and, of course, terrorism - which can be defined as going after civilian targets to instill chaos, fear, and as a by-product of terrorism, extreme loathing. We have learned nothing and forgotten everything.
5
Several points:
The MSF doctors are admirable, noble.
The Afghans who live there in Kunduz, who will fight the Taliban for the next hundred years, had a great deal of motive to attack the MSF hospital.
The American troops put on their temporary tour of duty there, had every disincentive to not attack that hospital, if they knew. Why were targets not being properly vetted? That's the question. The article hints that withdrawing resources from Afghanistan had some part to play in degrading military abilities to follow through.
As in Iraq, and elsewhere in the Middle East, factions fighting generational wars will try to manipulate & use the biggest weapon on Earth -- the American military (& politicians) to help settle scores & advance their cause. That should be realized as a large hazard of involvement. That politicians and the electorate are so eager to find any excuse to use this weapon is the real problem.
To a limited extent -- America falls for cultural assumptions about warfare that gets us into trouble. Remember the GW Bush gang, etc.. comparing invading Iraq to the liberation of Europe? Historical-Cultural connotations implied the centrally controlled warfare between societies long socially conditioned to nationalism. Chess victories.
The MSF doctors are admirable, noble.
The Afghans who live there in Kunduz, who will fight the Taliban for the next hundred years, had a great deal of motive to attack the MSF hospital.
The American troops put on their temporary tour of duty there, had every disincentive to not attack that hospital, if they knew. Why were targets not being properly vetted? That's the question. The article hints that withdrawing resources from Afghanistan had some part to play in degrading military abilities to follow through.
As in Iraq, and elsewhere in the Middle East, factions fighting generational wars will try to manipulate & use the biggest weapon on Earth -- the American military (& politicians) to help settle scores & advance their cause. That should be realized as a large hazard of involvement. That politicians and the electorate are so eager to find any excuse to use this weapon is the real problem.
To a limited extent -- America falls for cultural assumptions about warfare that gets us into trouble. Remember the GW Bush gang, etc.. comparing invading Iraq to the liberation of Europe? Historical-Cultural connotations implied the centrally controlled warfare between societies long socially conditioned to nationalism. Chess victories.
27
It is a shame that the Republican leadership has given a free pass when it comes to Human Rights violations, Torture, or even war crimes by the Executive Branch. Senate has become feckless and has abrogated its responsibilities completely whether it is to stop over reach by the executive branch of the government or conducting the required hearings on judicial and other nominations.
The US forces deliberately targeted a MSF run hospital in Kunduz. Our moral high ground demands an independent investigation and accountability. An internal investigation/audit and wrist slapping is not enough. We are better than that. The US congress must ask it to be done.
How can we ask the Putin’s (Crimea), Netanyahu (Gaza), Sisi (Egypt), Salman (Yemen), and Assad (Syria) for an independent investigation re possible war crimes committed under their watch? Maybe that is the reason we do not question most of them even if they commit war crimes, unless they happen to be defeated by the West (as Qaddafi, Saddam, Hitler and others) we don’t even charge them.
Our Nobel peace prize winner President carries a kill list with him, may also include Americans to be killed by UMV from the sky. Most of the individuals killed were unknown to the US and they were not imminent threat to the US, but they were killed in an extra judicial manner. None of the Presidential candidates are even discussing these issues. With Hillary/Trump these would only increase. One is a warmonger, the other one I wonder?
The US forces deliberately targeted a MSF run hospital in Kunduz. Our moral high ground demands an independent investigation and accountability. An internal investigation/audit and wrist slapping is not enough. We are better than that. The US congress must ask it to be done.
How can we ask the Putin’s (Crimea), Netanyahu (Gaza), Sisi (Egypt), Salman (Yemen), and Assad (Syria) for an independent investigation re possible war crimes committed under their watch? Maybe that is the reason we do not question most of them even if they commit war crimes, unless they happen to be defeated by the West (as Qaddafi, Saddam, Hitler and others) we don’t even charge them.
Our Nobel peace prize winner President carries a kill list with him, may also include Americans to be killed by UMV from the sky. Most of the individuals killed were unknown to the US and they were not imminent threat to the US, but they were killed in an extra judicial manner. None of the Presidential candidates are even discussing these issues. With Hillary/Trump these would only increase. One is a warmonger, the other one I wonder?
2
Quite a lot of baseless allegations here. Prove that President Obama carries a kill list around with him. Prove that our military intentionally targeted this hospital, when all evidence indicates it was a mistake. If you really think we're the equivalent of Putin, Assad, and other tyrants, I'm sorry but I think you're considerably deluded. But if you really hate America, nobody is stopping you from emigrating.
3
So now we're to be subjected to a "love it or leave it" attack in response to criticism of the country in the NYT comments?
Dear Henry Hughes,
Only in extreme circumstances. I think if people really think America is the greatest evil the world has ever known, going around intentionally committing war crimes just for fun and so on, then they'd probably be happier in leaving the country.
And it applies to me too, if America turns out to be foolhardy enough to elect Trump, I'm out of here. The America I love will have died on that day.
Only in extreme circumstances. I think if people really think America is the greatest evil the world has ever known, going around intentionally committing war crimes just for fun and so on, then they'd probably be happier in leaving the country.
And it applies to me too, if America turns out to be foolhardy enough to elect Trump, I'm out of here. The America I love will have died on that day.
America has become one giant global plague on humankind.
9
Nonsense. America is nowhere near as destructive and inhumane as the militaries in Sudan, North Korea, Myanmar, Yemen, Syria, Congo, and many, many more. Try some perspective, I know Americans love to hate America but we are far, far from the worst actors out there.
5
Because historically the middle east was doing so well before the US existed, right?
3
Stackhouse, you would do well to shed your blinders. The impact of the latest Iraq adventure alone was the death of at least a million people there. Hate has nothing to do with legitimate criticism.
2
Early on in the article Mr. Aikins calls the attack on the MSF Hospital a “massacre”. He then notes that the US Army has made a factual determination that “both the Special Forces and the AC-130 crew made serious errors, and in doing so violated the Geneva Conventions, they were not guilty of crimes…” Now you can violate the Geneva Conventions with impunity if you are pure of heart. How about a demand for prosecution Mr. Aikins? How convenient. See my comments “War Crimes that Go Unpunished”
http://deyanbrashich.com/home/2015/10/7/war-crimes-that-go-unpunished.html
http://deyanbrashich.com/home/2015/10/7/war-crimes-that-go-unpunished.html
5
“Can we provide treatment to whoever you consider to be your enemy?” said Jonathan Whittall, M.S.F.’s head of humanitarian analysis.
Seems pretty clear that the answer is no. Clearly, some of the parties in these conflicts (Afghanistan, Yemen) do not plan on playing by the same rules. Some of them are willing to sacrifice civilians, and the foreign doctors treating them, in order to hit their enemies (who even the MDS themselves admit are present in their midst). MDS/ Doctors Without Borders cannot even say for certain that those patients or their caregivers are not communicating military information over their cellphones. Therefore they have two choices: either accept that some parties to the conflict may, whether rightly or wrongly, not believe that MDS is truly neutral, or not care, and accept that those who choose to work at these facilities may be attacked or targeted (as they seem to have done in Syria); or accept that they cannot be neutral and treat everyone.
Seems pretty clear that the answer is no. Clearly, some of the parties in these conflicts (Afghanistan, Yemen) do not plan on playing by the same rules. Some of them are willing to sacrifice civilians, and the foreign doctors treating them, in order to hit their enemies (who even the MDS themselves admit are present in their midst). MDS/ Doctors Without Borders cannot even say for certain that those patients or their caregivers are not communicating military information over their cellphones. Therefore they have two choices: either accept that some parties to the conflict may, whether rightly or wrongly, not believe that MDS is truly neutral, or not care, and accept that those who choose to work at these facilities may be attacked or targeted (as they seem to have done in Syria); or accept that they cannot be neutral and treat everyone.
8
Reason #4,638 to get out once and for all from that hellhole of a country. And from every other hellhole we waste our time, money and young lives trying to bring up to par. Just so our hyper-educated yet stupid elites from Harvard, Yale and Princeton can have something interesting to do for a career once they move to D.C. The world's their chessboard and you, dear reader, simply their pawns.
2
The smart folks from those universities were all against our involvement in the ME.
Bush was a legacy student and, according to personal sources, got through Yale by paying other students to do much of his class work. He went AWOL long before the National Guard.
Bush was a legacy student and, according to personal sources, got through Yale by paying other students to do much of his class work. He went AWOL long before the National Guard.
2
No protective emblem, apparently a discrepancy between what MSF Kabul says and what witnesses observed in the hospital about the use of radios by Taliban commanders there, dismissal of all allegations without internal investigations?
MSF needs to really really really look into their practices if they are somehow becoming universally believed by governments fighting insurgents to be taking sides. It doesn't do to believe that only governments need internal investigations and lessons learned.
MSF, following the ICRC, negotiates with insurgent parties to insure their own safety. It appears that they don't negotiate with anyone allied with the government, as it does not appear they sought protection from the Afghan K.K.A. the way they did from the Taliban. The ICRC would have done such negotiations and they would have posted a protected emblem on the roof.
It isn't enough to invoke international law to demand the adherence of combatants, protected persons who's protection depends on their own compliance with international law, like medical workers and humanitarian workers, need to comply as well. MSF increasingly seems like it wants to redefine the law, redefine how they practice distinction, redefine what it means to be neutral and redefine who has the responsibility to keep their facilities neutral and protected.
Maybe such a redefinition is called for, but it has to be negotiated by all parties, not unilaterally declared by MSF at the cost of its own workers.
MSF needs to really really really look into their practices if they are somehow becoming universally believed by governments fighting insurgents to be taking sides. It doesn't do to believe that only governments need internal investigations and lessons learned.
MSF, following the ICRC, negotiates with insurgent parties to insure their own safety. It appears that they don't negotiate with anyone allied with the government, as it does not appear they sought protection from the Afghan K.K.A. the way they did from the Taliban. The ICRC would have done such negotiations and they would have posted a protected emblem on the roof.
It isn't enough to invoke international law to demand the adherence of combatants, protected persons who's protection depends on their own compliance with international law, like medical workers and humanitarian workers, need to comply as well. MSF increasingly seems like it wants to redefine the law, redefine how they practice distinction, redefine what it means to be neutral and redefine who has the responsibility to keep their facilities neutral and protected.
Maybe such a redefinition is called for, but it has to be negotiated by all parties, not unilaterally declared by MSF at the cost of its own workers.
4
Do I think it is possible that the Afgans targeted the hospital? Absolutely. Do I think the Administrstion will allow our soldiers to take the wrap for the Afgans? i absolutely do! Obama and his administration have been shameless in its continued support of incompetent and corrupt governments in the Middle East. They will sacrifice anyone and anything not to have to admit it. As a result our troops get painted as war criminals. We know who the war criminals are but they will be getting or have already gotten Medals Of Freedom and or other honors.
We must leave the ME and come home. While we are at it we need to boycott the Saudis and the rest of the theocrats in the ME. We need to allow the people in the ME to resolve their own problems. Our interventions never solve anything.
We must leave the ME and come home. While we are at it we need to boycott the Saudis and the rest of the theocrats in the ME. We need to allow the people in the ME to resolve their own problems. Our interventions never solve anything.
14
Great.
While we're at it, can we also shut down the theocracy here in the U.S., especially on the Supreme Court?
While we're at it, can we also shut down the theocracy here in the U.S., especially on the Supreme Court?
3
@JusticeHolmes: Ur utopian solution reminds me of what the journalist Pete Hamill said about Vietnam in the 1970's in response to a question how do we get out of VN. Hamill's response was "...by boat, by plane, by car or on foot."But it is never that easy, because too many groups have a vested interest in remaining engaged: defense contractors, our military, our diplomatic corps and our ngo's. They all have a vested interest in remaining in Afghanistan, In Boke, GUINEA one evening over dinner in our riverside villa--where "chauves souris" hung from the rafters, and there were constant "pannes d'electricite" and no running water--we bathed in the Rio Nunez-- a friend raised the question of whether Guinea was a failed state., as if that were the end of the beancrop, that there was no hope. I reflected, and answered that, on the contrary, being a failed state would prove to be a boon to the country, especially to the one percenters, who could then solicit and receive huge amounts of aid from international donors.The more embattled Afghanistan becomes, the more foreign assistance it will reeeive, which seems counter intuitive, but is nonetheless true.No Western country is leaving anytime soon.
1
The well-established conflicts between factions in Afghanistan are so beyond our Western comprehension it truly boggles the mind. How on earth did we get there--Dick Cheney a front for his band of oilmen? What on earth are we still doing there? Are we really helping the Afghans by drawing more fire from the Taliban?
A bad bargain for all especially the well-meaning docs who do not get (or chose not to get) the complexity and realities of the region.
A bad bargain for all especially the well-meaning docs who do not get (or chose not to get) the complexity and realities of the region.
7
How?
Because of the nonsense of neocon 'American Exceptionalism'.
You see, the Russians, the 'bad guys' went in and couldn't win because, well, they are not 'exceptional', let alone 'Christian' (at the time per state edict anyway).
The neocon view, promulgated by the 'decider', Bush, was that we enter Afghanistan 'with god on our side' for a 'righteous' cause.
To his credit, Obama has done what he could/can to get us out of the mess completely.
Meanwhile all of the GOP morons still spout how 'America will ge great. We'll make America strong again. Etc, etc.'
The fundamental problem, to be blunt, is that we have too many ignorant Americans and, at times, it seems the more ignorant they are, the more they vote.
Because of the nonsense of neocon 'American Exceptionalism'.
You see, the Russians, the 'bad guys' went in and couldn't win because, well, they are not 'exceptional', let alone 'Christian' (at the time per state edict anyway).
The neocon view, promulgated by the 'decider', Bush, was that we enter Afghanistan 'with god on our side' for a 'righteous' cause.
To his credit, Obama has done what he could/can to get us out of the mess completely.
Meanwhile all of the GOP morons still spout how 'America will ge great. We'll make America strong again. Etc, etc.'
The fundamental problem, to be blunt, is that we have too many ignorant Americans and, at times, it seems the more ignorant they are, the more they vote.
4
Doctors Without Borders stands head and shoulders above most of humanity and certainly 99.99% above all politicians.
After reading this....now, who do i vote for? Hillary, a war hawk, or the smallest grown human on the face of this earth, Trump?
Thanks NY Times.
After reading this....now, who do i vote for? Hillary, a war hawk, or the smallest grown human on the face of this earth, Trump?
Thanks NY Times.
Ignored in comments, though alluded to in the article, is the question of whether "neutrality" can exist in a war zone, especially in the midst of a civil war that is largely fought in guerrilla terms.
MSF tends to be considered beyond reproach, certainly in these columns, an example of highly ethical, altruistic and heroic benevolence. I just wonder how many readers would be thrilled if MSF saved the life and fighting ability of someone who had killed his or her family and then turned that person loose.
MSF tends to be considered beyond reproach, certainly in these columns, an example of highly ethical, altruistic and heroic benevolence. I just wonder how many readers would be thrilled if MSF saved the life and fighting ability of someone who had killed his or her family and then turned that person loose.
1
Afghanistan was a failed adventure for the US from day one. And with this and other incidents we have evidence of this country's significant ethical and cultural incompatibility with Western values. Let's not forget the Afghan military officer who kept a boy as a sex slave without incurring disciplinary action.
We also have evidence that the US Armed Forces are ignoring, obfuscating attempting to cover up these incidents: "The U.S. military initially declined to comment and referred questions to the Afghan government, which also declined to comment."
It's time for the American public to demand that US forces withdraw from this country.
We also have evidence that the US Armed Forces are ignoring, obfuscating attempting to cover up these incidents: "The U.S. military initially declined to comment and referred questions to the Afghan government, which also declined to comment."
It's time for the American public to demand that US forces withdraw from this country.
4
If they are treating the enemy, then bomb them.
2
Dear Bern,
That's too simplistic, sorry. When we were fighting the Nazis, one of the worst enemies we ever had, it was still a war crime to intentionally bomb Nazi hospitals.
That's too simplistic, sorry. When we were fighting the Nazis, one of the worst enemies we ever had, it was still a war crime to intentionally bomb Nazi hospitals.
10
American exceptionalism usually does not lead to either an accurate portrayal of reality or the creation of good policies. Interestingly, it takes opposing forms : America is either the source of all good or all evil in the world. Some of the Most Recommended comments here frequently are of the America-Is-The-Cause-Of-All-Evil variety, refusing to even consider alternative possibilities as to what happened in the airstrike on the MSF hospital in Kunduz. If one wants to make the world a better place, it helps if we deal with reality, not with the way wish it were or the way we fear it is.
3
There have been many attacks on hospitals in warzones all over the world in the past year. The United States, Russia, and other nations with advanced military have been guilty of these "accidents" -- what's the real story here?
3
I'd guess the real story is that this has always happened in every single war since there have been hospitals. Happens a lot less now than it did in every proceeding century.
1
This isn't the first time Afghan warlords have gotten the US to settle a local grudge by convincing them (us) that the target was a 'terrorist'.
13
The Taliban were fleeing airstrikes and using the hospital as a safe zone for command and control. How could the top Taliban commander in the hospital guarantee the safety of hospital personnel without weapons and the willingness to use them on hospital grounds? Who ensures that some of the scores of patched up Taliban do not return to terrorizing the residents of the city? 848 civilians were killed or injured outside of the hospital. Why would the MSF not evacuate ASAP due to the increasing chaos in the city? Altruism has its limits as to where and when, and for whom, it is safe to practice.
8
Anyone hear the radical left blasting Obama as a war criminal the way they did when Bush did pretty much the same thing?
7
Yes-- frequently
6
Qualitatively different.
Bush & Co. began beating the war drum as soon as he entered office and did so at every opportunity, with the help of trumped up and objectively lousy intelligence 'data' that was demonstrably false even at the time (despite the hype to the contrary).
Obama had a stated goal of ending the hostilities and, as far as I know, has never attempted to whitewash or explain away very bad decisions, including Benghazi.
I don't read anyone in this article arguing that it wasn't a mistake. In Bush's administration there would have been no apology.
Bush & Co. began beating the war drum as soon as he entered office and did so at every opportunity, with the help of trumped up and objectively lousy intelligence 'data' that was demonstrably false even at the time (despite the hype to the contrary).
Obama had a stated goal of ending the hostilities and, as far as I know, has never attempted to whitewash or explain away very bad decisions, including Benghazi.
I don't read anyone in this article arguing that it wasn't a mistake. In Bush's administration there would have been no apology.
8
Give me a break. Bush lied to get us into a war of choice. Big difference. And in case your wondering Alan, the Middle East wouldn't be in its current situation if we, the United States didn't invade and overthrow saddam. Pretty simple.
6
It's tragic that we can't trust any arm of the government to investigate itself. When in doubt there's always a cover up, and when there isn't a cover up the punishment is a slap on the wrist. Nothing undermines trust in government and the effectiveness of government employees more than this lawlessness.
13
I am sure every person with a conscience, even if they are racist, see how different standards are applied to bombing by Daish in Brussels or San Bernardino as opposed to bombing of hospitals, schools, and villages in Muslim countries by Americans/ Europeans/Israelis. One dare not even refer to the latter's crimes as terrorism as it has been labeled by the Powerful as counterterrorism, and thus nobody is calling on anyone to come out and condemn anybody. Never mind the fact that people on the ground feel the same pain, the same terror, and the same grief. As far as the "civilized" world is concerned only the Muslims are terrorists. The Judeo Christian forces are.......counter terrorists.
Since 9–11 Muslims have killed hundreds of Judeo-Christians, and Judeo-Christians have killed hundreds of thousands of Muslims.
Fortunately in the eyes of Allah (swt) all human lives hold the same value and thus demons will plague and weaken their own creators.
Since 9–11 Muslims have killed hundreds of Judeo-Christians, and Judeo-Christians have killed hundreds of thousands of Muslims.
Fortunately in the eyes of Allah (swt) all human lives hold the same value and thus demons will plague and weaken their own creators.
10
Fundamental difference is ISIS and AlQaeda believe all infidels are guilty.
Most Americans believe that only those involved in, and supporting, terrorism are to be targeted.
I'm not saying the U.S. does a perfect job, because we obviously don't.
But if we were like the average generic Middle East terrorist we could simply go in and wipe out entire cities, towns, and villages, with no remorse.
We don't do that.
Most Americans believe that only those involved in, and supporting, terrorism are to be targeted.
I'm not saying the U.S. does a perfect job, because we obviously don't.
But if we were like the average generic Middle East terrorist we could simply go in and wipe out entire cities, towns, and villages, with no remorse.
We don't do that.
3
This is a very disturbing comment. Do you really think Christians as you call, USA and Europe are killing people in the middle east because of religion?. If that is the case then why does millions of Muslim refugees are flocking towards European countries instead of Arab Muslim oil rich countries?. Is it make them easy for these evil christian countries to kill those Muslim refugees?.
Do you really think the remaining Arab oil countries which the Europeans/US built and protected by American army hold together once they packed their ship?. Remember Mecca bombings in 1980s? Agreeing that there are several business interests by west on middle east . But looking everything through the eyes of religion will not abate any problem, but ignite the problem multiple fold. Also it is an insult that even though western intervention caused problems in already chaotic middle east, there are always success stories in Indonesia, Turkey, Arab oil rich countries, which you ignore.
Do you really think the remaining Arab oil countries which the Europeans/US built and protected by American army hold together once they packed their ship?. Remember Mecca bombings in 1980s? Agreeing that there are several business interests by west on middle east . But looking everything through the eyes of religion will not abate any problem, but ignite the problem multiple fold. Also it is an insult that even though western intervention caused problems in already chaotic middle east, there are always success stories in Indonesia, Turkey, Arab oil rich countries, which you ignore.
6
Saima, Doctors without Borders, Red Cross and countless other charity organizations working in Muslim countries are from Judeo Christian lands. The irony you mentioned in this post.
6
I think the MSF should accept some responsibility for this tragedy. The MSF failed to display a Red Cross, Red Crescent, the universally recognized medical emblems since 1949 that identify buildings that must be protected to attacking aircraft during wartime under Article 38 of the Geneva Accords. American pilots and observers are trained to not attack the Red Cross or Red Crescent if observed over or on a structure.
The MSF said they had 'their' flag flying over the building. If they actually had a flag (prior pictures don't show one) they have not said if it had any of these symbols were on the flag they say was being flown.
If one of these symbols had been painted on the roof of that building, this attack probably would not have happened.
The MSF said they had 'their' flag flying over the building. If they actually had a flag (prior pictures don't show one) they have not said if it had any of these symbols were on the flag they say was being flown.
If one of these symbols had been painted on the roof of that building, this attack probably would not have happened.
5
The problem is they did have a red cross painted on their roof and their building had been there for four years according this newspaper's reporting.
5
This article did not say that. It said "and although the hospital had a flag with the M.S.F. logo on its roof, it wasn’t marked with a red cross or a crescent." I cannot find any mention of a red cross or crescent painted on the hospital anywhere.
1
I'm glad that we learned so much from Russia's involvement with Afghanistan in the 1980's.
15
If we had had the humility to ask them they, the Russians, would have probably been happy to advise us as to what not to do.
1
And Alexander the Great's involvement. And the Mughal Empire's involvement. And the British Empire's involvement. So much opportunity for learning yet so little learning actually done!
7
I was on an MSF conference call a few weeks ago. They were talking about the resent attacks on their hospitals. The MSF leaders said that in Kunduz city, the local pharmacist was upset that MSF was giving out free medicine. He got the local leaders against MSF. MSF wasn't aware of this until after the attack. MSF said they will not be returning to Kunduz.
4
every aid group should get out and let them live their lives as they like
they dont want what you have
get used to it or keep dying
they dont want what you have
get used to it or keep dying
1
We persist in the fantasy that war is fought by rules that are understood and followed by all. That war is an environment were operations and people will follow the rules and that all things needed for a successful operation are known and controlled.
In fact war is chaotic at best, people and situations quickly spiral out of control. Atrocities and war crimes come with the territory. It is why wars should only be fought as a last resort and for as short of time as possible. It is not possible to control and innocents will always suffer as a result.
In fact war is chaotic at best, people and situations quickly spiral out of control. Atrocities and war crimes come with the territory. It is why wars should only be fought as a last resort and for as short of time as possible. It is not possible to control and innocents will always suffer as a result.
11
Amazing reporting on a terrible tragedy. I don't think there are any good answers on how to prevent this sort of horrible outcome. The Afghans do not trust us, reasonably as we are heathens, and we cannot trust them. The government of Afghanistan has no tradition of democracy, responsibility, honesty, or concern with humanitarian ethics.
The major mistake, after invading in the first place, was probably letting Afghanistan have self-rule. I think that should have been postponed for two or three decades, enough to stamp out all taliban resistance and get a sustained peace going. If a generation managed to get raised with modern education, freedom from hostilities, and under the protection of a benevolent government, then they could have started their own fledgling democracy.
As it is, Afghanistan is a wreck. I can't think of anything to be done about it, short of re-conquering it and ruling it with a U.N. commission, various nations responsible for various areas. That's not going to happen, so I fear peace will not come to Afghanistan until climate change renders it uninhabitable, which will take several more decades.
As for M.S.F., I think their optimal course of action is to abandon their mission in Afghanistan. Either that or be resigned to the fact that more of their doctors will die there, caught in the crossfire and sometimes intentionally targeted by Afghans. As for Afghanistan itself, I just can't see any hope for it.
The major mistake, after invading in the first place, was probably letting Afghanistan have self-rule. I think that should have been postponed for two or three decades, enough to stamp out all taliban resistance and get a sustained peace going. If a generation managed to get raised with modern education, freedom from hostilities, and under the protection of a benevolent government, then they could have started their own fledgling democracy.
As it is, Afghanistan is a wreck. I can't think of anything to be done about it, short of re-conquering it and ruling it with a U.N. commission, various nations responsible for various areas. That's not going to happen, so I fear peace will not come to Afghanistan until climate change renders it uninhabitable, which will take several more decades.
As for M.S.F., I think their optimal course of action is to abandon their mission in Afghanistan. Either that or be resigned to the fact that more of their doctors will die there, caught in the crossfire and sometimes intentionally targeted by Afghans. As for Afghanistan itself, I just can't see any hope for it.
5
A crucial comment in this article is “Can we provide treatment to whoever you consider to be your enemy?”, asked by the head of 'humanitarian analysis' for the Doctors Without Borders. The answer, clearly, is not with any guarantee of safety. One can either accept this, along with the dangers to all involved, including the patients, or close up shop and relocate. It's just unrealistic in an insurgency conflict to expect everyone to tiptoe around your facility with a complete degree of success.
1
How can Afghan forces, trained by the United States, not understand the IHL (International Humanitarian Law) essentials, namely ALL war wounded are entitled to medical care.
This tough-to-read article sets out what happened but it is important to note that Afghan and US authorities did not "acquiesce" in 2009 to the return of MSF to Afghanistan; the offer of much needed medical help is not a hostile act and should not be seen as such; impartial humanitarian action is a fundamental principle of humanity. US authorities that have played a central role in human cost of the mess that engulfs Afghans for some 15 years surely (a) knows where the few hospitals in the country are located and (b) ensures its military commanders are aware of the coordinates of such facilities ...whether or not communications systems are functioning when airstrikes are called in. Responsibility for the killing of patients and medical staff in Kunduz goes to the top of both US and Afghan administrations. Gross negligence is war crimes territory.
This tough-to-read article sets out what happened but it is important to note that Afghan and US authorities did not "acquiesce" in 2009 to the return of MSF to Afghanistan; the offer of much needed medical help is not a hostile act and should not be seen as such; impartial humanitarian action is a fundamental principle of humanity. US authorities that have played a central role in human cost of the mess that engulfs Afghans for some 15 years surely (a) knows where the few hospitals in the country are located and (b) ensures its military commanders are aware of the coordinates of such facilities ...whether or not communications systems are functioning when airstrikes are called in. Responsibility for the killing of patients and medical staff in Kunduz goes to the top of both US and Afghan administrations. Gross negligence is war crimes territory.
58
Is it gross negligence to over and over again fail to put a protective emblem, as defined by the 3rd Additional Protocol, on the roof of your hospitals?
1
Dear Norah,
That's easy, they are used to rule of religion, rule by fatwa, not rule of law. Afghanistan has never had rule of law, the main ethic there is "might makes right". And humanitarian concerns have never been a concern there.
That's easy, they are used to rule of religion, rule by fatwa, not rule of law. Afghanistan has never had rule of law, the main ethic there is "might makes right". And humanitarian concerns have never been a concern there.
When did a massive RED CROSS painted on the roof of the building get removed from the list of "protective emblems"?
1
Bombing of the hospital is not the first or the exceptional
accident. American ship shot down Iranian civilian airliner.
Admiral Crowe made a statement citing technical problems.
His discomfort gave a clue that he doesn't believe
his own words. USA bombed the school in Baghdad
using the bunker busting bomb which penetrated to
the basement and killed hundreds of people sheltering
there. It bombed dairy factory in Khartoum, Sudan, claiming
it as an explosives manufacturing operation. It also
bombed the wedding party in Afghanistan claiming there
was firing. In that country firing in the air is a common
form of wedding celebration. Saudis did the same bombing
water bottling plant, market and wedding party making
a widow 15 minutes after the wedding. They blamed America
providing intelligence. There are some serious questions
about American intelligence and hasty military action
causing tragic deaths. It is so Orwellian to call dumb
information intelligence.
accident. American ship shot down Iranian civilian airliner.
Admiral Crowe made a statement citing technical problems.
His discomfort gave a clue that he doesn't believe
his own words. USA bombed the school in Baghdad
using the bunker busting bomb which penetrated to
the basement and killed hundreds of people sheltering
there. It bombed dairy factory in Khartoum, Sudan, claiming
it as an explosives manufacturing operation. It also
bombed the wedding party in Afghanistan claiming there
was firing. In that country firing in the air is a common
form of wedding celebration. Saudis did the same bombing
water bottling plant, market and wedding party making
a widow 15 minutes after the wedding. They blamed America
providing intelligence. There are some serious questions
about American intelligence and hasty military action
causing tragic deaths. It is so Orwellian to call dumb
information intelligence.
3
I believe the investigation took months to prepare, not because it was looking for the truth, but because the Army was working hard to provide a cover story that anybody would believe. A perfect storm of errors? Sure.
They were also stalling for time hoping people would lose interest. So I thank the Times for not letting that happen.
They were also stalling for time hoping people would lose interest. So I thank the Times for not letting that happen.
5
Funny how the Afghan military would have no Doctors without Borders around if they could simply carry out a competent, sustained, effective campaign against the Taliban --ah, but the Afghan military has again lost (if it ever had) the support from the Afghan People and will never with the war.
And so it goes, the US again ends up entangled and betrayed by enemies posing as "friends" that nevertheless steal from the US purse and use the US military for war crimes.
And so it goes, the US again ends up entangled and betrayed by enemies posing as "friends" that nevertheless steal from the US purse and use the US military for war crimes.
3
mounting evidence suggests that
Afghans’ mistrust for the nonprofit medical group might have set the tragedy in motion.
Hmm Doctors not being trusted!!!
Afghans’ mistrust for the nonprofit medical group might have set the tragedy in motion.
Hmm Doctors not being trusted!!!
Just a quick reminder of the costs of war: The US is STILL paying veteran benefits to survivors of the civil war which ended 150 years ago. Search "still paying civil war benefits" or see link below. If this is any guide we could still be paying for afganistan and Iraq almost 200 years from now.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/9944018/US-st...
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/9944018/US-st...
MSF like Redcross is neutral and that is the main problem. When there is a fight between good guys and bad guys, staying neutral is the same thing as judging that bad guys deserve to be treated like good guys. If everyone is neutral then there is no way to get rid off bad guys! A simple solution is not allowing any officially declared "neutral" organizations.
2
MSF in the future should avoid American war zones for fear of real and feigned "errors." There will be more avoidable deaths as a consequence, but the doctors and nursing staff working outside of American war zones will themselves be safe and in the long run save more lives. The benefit-risk ratio argues for adopting an American war zone avoidance policy.
2
MSF seems to suffer from overweening pride that it operates among an enemy no one else dares come near. The doctors and others on site were under going stockholm syndrome in which they bergan to identify with the very powerful armed group which had them surrounded,"to protect them" and allowed in non wounded "caretakers" to the hospital where they used up precious supplies of water, food and beds. No civilian or wounded would dare to cross these healthy probably armed with pistols and knives , Taliban soldiers. The religiousd nature of the Afghans would not allow the presence of males to care for female patients so the hospital quickly became an area for "R and R" and probably planning and other military activities, by Taliban forces. That the hospital was asmittedly allowing these healthy "caretakers" to store heavy weapons, machine guns, rockets and other material of war in areas of the hospital was a breach of the laws of war and of good faith.
It seems clear that for all the talk about their treating all comers that the MSF had been taken over, psychologically and physically, by the Taliban and that the assumptions of the Afghan national army were probably more correct 90% of the time than not.
Americans just don't belong in there. We never ought to have allowed ourselves to become guarantors for a new Western style state in which has never been subdued by any foreign force.
Both GOP and Democratic planners, as well as the military screwed the pooch.
It seems clear that for all the talk about their treating all comers that the MSF had been taken over, psychologically and physically, by the Taliban and that the assumptions of the Afghan national army were probably more correct 90% of the time than not.
Americans just don't belong in there. We never ought to have allowed ourselves to become guarantors for a new Western style state in which has never been subdued by any foreign force.
Both GOP and Democratic planners, as well as the military screwed the pooch.
2
it had to be an accident. the competence, accuracy and military intelligence of the united states of America is beyond reproach. for example, who can forget their belief that a poppy design added to the Canadian quarter was a honing device. i'd trust americans with YOUR life.
1
I've been a supporter of MSF for several years, and this article inspires me to contribute more to MSF. The courage and compassion of its doctors, nurses and staff working in war zones like Afghanistan and Syria and Ebola-plagued African countries is astounding.
But Major Michael Hutchinson and the 30 or so Green Berets under his command--though some of their Afghan counterparts appear to have used them to carry out a vendetta and many more Afghans panicked and fled under fire--acted with extraordinary bravery and self-sacrifice in circumstances those of us reading this in the comfort of our homes and offices in the US can't imagine.
Yes, a terrible disaster occurred and many innocent people died, because of equipment failures and the dishonesty of some of our Afghan allies, but Hutchinson and his men are heroes and do not deserve the scorn many commenters are heaping on them. As one of the Green Berets wrote, "I was in a lot of effective firefights, but this was on a completely different level than even any of the experienced special operators on any of the detachments had seen — particularly over such a sustained period of time. How no one was killed, or even wounded, is an absolute miracle.”
But Major Michael Hutchinson and the 30 or so Green Berets under his command--though some of their Afghan counterparts appear to have used them to carry out a vendetta and many more Afghans panicked and fled under fire--acted with extraordinary bravery and self-sacrifice in circumstances those of us reading this in the comfort of our homes and offices in the US can't imagine.
Yes, a terrible disaster occurred and many innocent people died, because of equipment failures and the dishonesty of some of our Afghan allies, but Hutchinson and his men are heroes and do not deserve the scorn many commenters are heaping on them. As one of the Green Berets wrote, "I was in a lot of effective firefights, but this was on a completely different level than even any of the experienced special operators on any of the detachments had seen — particularly over such a sustained period of time. How no one was killed, or even wounded, is an absolute miracle.”
8
His men aren't the problem, It's US policy of using foreign troops, paid informants and rebels presumably loyal to the US for targeting that is carried out by US troops. This policy decision of using US air power without boots on the ground comes from the very top.
If the US is going to fight a war you need US troops loyal to the US government on the ground. Granted the US public wouldn't go along with that and since they wont we have decided to bribe foreigners to do it for us.
We can have a draft and a real war or we can continue to pay foreign troops and corporations to fight them for us and use our own personal to provide them with incredible killing power.
If the US is going to fight a war you need US troops loyal to the US government on the ground. Granted the US public wouldn't go along with that and since they wont we have decided to bribe foreigners to do it for us.
We can have a draft and a real war or we can continue to pay foreign troops and corporations to fight them for us and use our own personal to provide them with incredible killing power.
1
Our memories are terribly short and selective. We firebombed German and Japanese civilians in WW2 , including 67 japanese cities . We also dropped two atomic bombs on Japanese cililians. We still claim moral justification for all those actions.
http://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2015/03/10/national/deadly-wwii-u-s-fir...
http://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2015/03/10/national/deadly-wwii-u-s-fir...
6
There's really no explanation for this other than that we have become the very evil that we purport to stand against.
8
Wars can end in different ways. Both sides can fight to exhaustion and by agreement end the fighting. Another is for one side to simply give up fighting for a lost cause and go home. Vietnam probably comes to mind but so does World War I and the Russian front. The American Civil War ended on the battlefield but a guerrilla war was averted by generous terms of peace and surrender. A guerrilla conflict without end is the cause of the Palestinians, Hezbollah, and Hamas. That conflict will continue until the generations pass or there is a cataclysmic battle in which one side or another is totally destroyed. There will be no negotiated peace.
Afghanistan offers no easy solution. In fact Afghanistan only offers reasons to continue the bloodshed. War between tribes and clans is not a war that nations can win. In the midst of the Afghanistan war the destruction of a hospital that assisted combatants and innocents of both sides was viewed with great suspicion and resentment despite its benefits and equal treatment to both sides. The hospital's practice of neutrality was its own undoing.
Tragically in Afghanistan there can be no neutrality. The never-ending war of tribes and clans continues.
Mr. Obama needs to make a decision. Engage fully and bring the war to an end or withdraw all support and go home. The American war effort should have compelled the Taliban to the peace table not a neutral hospital operating room.
In this war there can be no neutrality. Not even in a hospital.
Afghanistan offers no easy solution. In fact Afghanistan only offers reasons to continue the bloodshed. War between tribes and clans is not a war that nations can win. In the midst of the Afghanistan war the destruction of a hospital that assisted combatants and innocents of both sides was viewed with great suspicion and resentment despite its benefits and equal treatment to both sides. The hospital's practice of neutrality was its own undoing.
Tragically in Afghanistan there can be no neutrality. The never-ending war of tribes and clans continues.
Mr. Obama needs to make a decision. Engage fully and bring the war to an end or withdraw all support and go home. The American war effort should have compelled the Taliban to the peace table not a neutral hospital operating room.
In this war there can be no neutrality. Not even in a hospital.
5
The current US policy of using foreign trained and bribed troops to provide targeting is a war crime. It’s about time the NY Times stopped covering up for this President. President Obama’s nuanced approach, applauded by progressives is criminal. The President himself while promising an independent investigation of these calculated murders called it a mistake before the investigation took place. This was a whitewash by the military supported by the administration.
Anyone who believes US strikes in Yemen, Syria, Libya, and Afghanistan are being targeted by US troops is being deluded. Targets are being provided by paid US informants many of them with loyalty to foreign governments and rebels and some with no loyalty what so ever. President Obama’s policy of using us technology without US troops on the ground is nothing short of a tortured legal concept that we used to call manslaughter.
I’m a proud donor to DWB and embarrassed US taxpayer. The Obama administration should be ashamed for deciding to put US military technology in the hands of what can only be called US backed criminals. It’s time to pack up and leave or institute a draft and use soldiers loyal to the US to provide targeting and all aspects of our military operations. Enough with paying US tax dollars to mercenaries, foreign troops and terror organizations. When are we going to stop this madness?
Anyone who believes US strikes in Yemen, Syria, Libya, and Afghanistan are being targeted by US troops is being deluded. Targets are being provided by paid US informants many of them with loyalty to foreign governments and rebels and some with no loyalty what so ever. President Obama’s policy of using us technology without US troops on the ground is nothing short of a tortured legal concept that we used to call manslaughter.
I’m a proud donor to DWB and embarrassed US taxpayer. The Obama administration should be ashamed for deciding to put US military technology in the hands of what can only be called US backed criminals. It’s time to pack up and leave or institute a draft and use soldiers loyal to the US to provide targeting and all aspects of our military operations. Enough with paying US tax dollars to mercenaries, foreign troops and terror organizations. When are we going to stop this madness?
4
I couldn't finish reading this report. When, when, when, will we learn? Do we really have to keep making the same kinds of mistakes, acting as though "this time will be different!"
Our comfort level with this "forever war" has got to be pushed to discomfort, to the point where we are able to decide to get out of Southwest Asia. The sheer recklessness, stupidity, and oxymoronic irony of it all would be laughable except that it's getting a whole lot of people - most of them innocent - killed.
We cannot "win" this war, by any reasonable definition of the word. But, given the views of the apparent presidential nominees and the state of hawkishness in our Congress (that has neither the guts to declare war nor the will to demand accountability), we will likely endure at least four more years of this. Many, many more will suffer and die, and someday, MARK MY WORDS, someday we will leave that place with our tail between our legs, just as the Soviets did and just as we did in Viet Nam. To be sure, we will convince ourselves that we "won," but in our hearts we will know we are and have been liars. Every day we remain there we bring further dishonor upon ourselves.
Start building another Wall in Washington, D.C. that we can lay wreaths and mementos upon.
Our comfort level with this "forever war" has got to be pushed to discomfort, to the point where we are able to decide to get out of Southwest Asia. The sheer recklessness, stupidity, and oxymoronic irony of it all would be laughable except that it's getting a whole lot of people - most of them innocent - killed.
We cannot "win" this war, by any reasonable definition of the word. But, given the views of the apparent presidential nominees and the state of hawkishness in our Congress (that has neither the guts to declare war nor the will to demand accountability), we will likely endure at least four more years of this. Many, many more will suffer and die, and someday, MARK MY WORDS, someday we will leave that place with our tail between our legs, just as the Soviets did and just as we did in Viet Nam. To be sure, we will convince ourselves that we "won," but in our hearts we will know we are and have been liars. Every day we remain there we bring further dishonor upon ourselves.
Start building another Wall in Washington, D.C. that we can lay wreaths and mementos upon.
8
This is part of a concerted whitewash. If the reporter could get Gard to admit that they thought MSF was collaborating with the Taliban, how would such animus possibly be unknown to the Special Forces "trainers" of the Afghan Police and Military? It's simply not credible.
Further, in what world do we allow the army accused (rightly, by MSF) of a war crime to invstigate itself, let itself off simply mumbling "mistakes were made?" An earlier Times article about the attack mentioned that Hutchinson (then unnamed) had gone 50 hours without sleep, which had to be a factor in his judgement, but it isn't mentioned here.
For two days before the attack, the MSF hospital coordinates were known at Bagram, from which the attack gunship was dispatched. That their antenna and guidance system failed should have aborted the attack.
There is no way to justify the carnage. A special operator remarked that it was a "miracle" that no green berets or their trainees were killed, or even wounded, there was no care taken to preclude carnage at a hospital. Sorry, tragic accident & war crime are not mutually exclusive, despite claims to the contrary within. And, it must be noted, there are courts tasked with adjudging such cases, a whole lot more objective than the combatants.
But the greatest takeaway is the utter moral and logical bankruptcy of our continued presence in the graveyard of empires. We try to train natives with no courage, who target doctors for just treating all wounded. Shameful
Further, in what world do we allow the army accused (rightly, by MSF) of a war crime to invstigate itself, let itself off simply mumbling "mistakes were made?" An earlier Times article about the attack mentioned that Hutchinson (then unnamed) had gone 50 hours without sleep, which had to be a factor in his judgement, but it isn't mentioned here.
For two days before the attack, the MSF hospital coordinates were known at Bagram, from which the attack gunship was dispatched. That their antenna and guidance system failed should have aborted the attack.
There is no way to justify the carnage. A special operator remarked that it was a "miracle" that no green berets or their trainees were killed, or even wounded, there was no care taken to preclude carnage at a hospital. Sorry, tragic accident & war crime are not mutually exclusive, despite claims to the contrary within. And, it must be noted, there are courts tasked with adjudging such cases, a whole lot more objective than the combatants.
But the greatest takeaway is the utter moral and logical bankruptcy of our continued presence in the graveyard of empires. We try to train natives with no courage, who target doctors for just treating all wounded. Shameful
66
Long past time to leave Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria, Libya and anywhere else in the area.
8
I hardly read the NY Times anymore.
It's like reading a dispatch from the U.S. State Department that ALWAYS defends or excuses EVERY crime committed by our troop at the orders of our leaders.
However, when Bush abandoned our troops in Afghanistan in 2003 with no mission or leadership, the FAILED outcome of our efforts were written in the proverbial stone.
And Obama has been monumentally stupid to make Bush's lost war into Obama's lost war.
It's like reading a dispatch from the U.S. State Department that ALWAYS defends or excuses EVERY crime committed by our troop at the orders of our leaders.
However, when Bush abandoned our troops in Afghanistan in 2003 with no mission or leadership, the FAILED outcome of our efforts were written in the proverbial stone.
And Obama has been monumentally stupid to make Bush's lost war into Obama's lost war.
5
Terrific story, journalism at its best
9
Byzantine political influences are literally deadly when war is involved...tragically, frequently to those most innocent--such as the people of MSF. A necessary corrective step is to require Congress to declare war when the government is making war. Perhaps then the Chicken Hawks' influence will decline and the administration will feel freer to behave in the country's true best interest.
2
This has happened more than once, and appears to be a tactic by the Afghans to exact revenge. Values and culture are different in many countries, and yet it seems that we aren't taking that into consideration. We have been in this country long enough to know it is comprised of tribes that have major differences. This shouldn't be about let the American do our dirty work and exact revenge if we can't do it as efficiently.
5
I spent two years in Afghanistan and have been to Kunduz where this tragedy occurred. Both the Afghan government and the Taliban benefit economically from the U.S. military presence. Every minute we spend there means taxpayer dollars being spent with a portion going to the local poplation. If we pull out completely they will no longer have an economy except for poppy and warlords. This will lead to an even greater exodus of refugees seeking to escape to the EU. This will create a populist backlash in the EU to stop the flow of people from entering their countries. The U.S. and EU know this and so the status quo will continue. We're not going anywhere anytime soon. The Afghan government and Taliban know this so the cat and mouse game of fighting over who gets to steal the most from the West will also continue. Afghanistan is right next to China and someday the Chinese will move in and take all of the vast mineral wealth. We will get nothing for the billions we poured into this country. President Obama flipped a coin and lost when he decided to end our presence in Iraq and expand it in Afghanistan. President Bush should have never invaded. If Hilary wins the status quo wins. If Trump wins and he does what he says then we will leave the Middle East to police itself, which could lead to a nuclear arms race which will increase the threat of nuclear terrorism. There is no way out except to bleed out of blood and treasure. This is how Rome fell slowly over centuries.
11
When desperate circumstances combine with the fog of war and the lethality of modern weapons nasty things will often happen, especially when control systems are thin. Bystanders cannot be assured from all risk. This is a sad reality of war.
In this case, the necessity of recapturing the provincial capital before its loss became a catalyst for wider losses was probably understood as a desperate circumstance. The Afghans were not up to the job defending Kunduz and likely not up to the job of retaking it independently. The few available U.S. Special Forces and Air Force professionals were called upon and succeeded in making a critical difference tactically. However, the grave errors in hitting the hospital, even unintentionally, were unacceptable both strategically and for moral reasons.
The procedural errors can prompt improvements. But we cannot blame only the commanders, our troops or the Afghans. Violence is committed on our behalf and in recognition the Afghans are not yet up to the job or securing their own country. War does not well respect the nuances preferred in politics. If we want to prevent more tragedies we may have to increase our involvement even though it is and should remain the Afghans' war. Or we can choose to watch them lose, come what may.
What Sherman observed is still true, "War is cruelty, and you cannot refine it."
In this case, the necessity of recapturing the provincial capital before its loss became a catalyst for wider losses was probably understood as a desperate circumstance. The Afghans were not up to the job defending Kunduz and likely not up to the job of retaking it independently. The few available U.S. Special Forces and Air Force professionals were called upon and succeeded in making a critical difference tactically. However, the grave errors in hitting the hospital, even unintentionally, were unacceptable both strategically and for moral reasons.
The procedural errors can prompt improvements. But we cannot blame only the commanders, our troops or the Afghans. Violence is committed on our behalf and in recognition the Afghans are not yet up to the job or securing their own country. War does not well respect the nuances preferred in politics. If we want to prevent more tragedies we may have to increase our involvement even though it is and should remain the Afghans' war. Or we can choose to watch them lose, come what may.
What Sherman observed is still true, "War is cruelty, and you cannot refine it."
11
Well said.
It's a dirty war; the people who live there hate one another to an extent that outsiders cannot influence: if there had been this much absolute hatred un the US at the time of the Civil War, we would still be at war..
I can accept that afghan forces may have perpetrated misinformation; I cannot NOT accept that US Special Forces had no idea that this was a hospital.
In what way is our military presence making for a better country or advancing our interests?
I can accept that afghan forces may have perpetrated misinformation; I cannot NOT accept that US Special Forces had no idea that this was a hospital.
In what way is our military presence making for a better country or advancing our interests?
10
Reading this article leaves one with the same disgust that accompanied reports of atrocities in Vietnam. We get a whitewash of a criminal act. No punishments for the US high command or the Afghans who created the situation initially by deliberately targeting the hospital.
If Richard Nixon were POTUS, the NYT would be demanding he be held responsible, but let's face it, Obama can get away with anything. Perhaps Trump is right, if for the wrong reasons: the less the US intervenes, the better off is the world.
If Richard Nixon were POTUS, the NYT would be demanding he be held responsible, but let's face it, Obama can get away with anything. Perhaps Trump is right, if for the wrong reasons: the less the US intervenes, the better off is the world.
5
If Afghan forces deliberately furnished false target information, the Afghan commanders—not U.S. commanders—are responsible for the incident.
3
Oh right... let's turn this into an Obama problem, the so-called Muslim from Kenya. How predictable. You want to point at POTUS complicity, we can look at far more concrete examples with the Cheney Cabal, the lies about uranium dust and WMD in Iraq, the 2002 Energy Task Force that had already carved up Iraq oil fields before the first U.S. shot was fired, etc. etc. Tiresome.
5
The lesson here is don't expect others completely to accept your western ethnocentric views about war and how to conduct it. You are not in Kansas Toto. Providing aid and comfort to the enemy even in a hospital setting is not a universally accepted value. Not even in the USA. When going into war immoral death and destruction is sure to follow be it the burning of Dresden , 67 firebombed Japanese cities or the two atomic bombed cities. The west does not have clean hands here either.
9
here is where your new infrastructure, your money for health care and education went
here is where your future went
here is where your souls are buried
New data shows that America’s war in Afghanistan is costing taxpayers roughly $4 million an hour, despite the Obama administration’s drawdown of troops leaving only 10,000 soldiers in the country.
The cost of deploying just one solider in Afghanistan is approximately $1 million a year, far higher than the $390,000 congressional researchers estimated in 2006, according to a New York Times article. Military analysts said the increase in expenditure reflects a surge in the cost of mine-resistant troop carriers and surveillance equipment. Unique to Afghanistan is the additional cost of as much as $400 a gallon to deliver fuel to troops moving through mountainous terrain.
here is where your future went
here is where your souls are buried
New data shows that America’s war in Afghanistan is costing taxpayers roughly $4 million an hour, despite the Obama administration’s drawdown of troops leaving only 10,000 soldiers in the country.
The cost of deploying just one solider in Afghanistan is approximately $1 million a year, far higher than the $390,000 congressional researchers estimated in 2006, according to a New York Times article. Military analysts said the increase in expenditure reflects a surge in the cost of mine-resistant troop carriers and surveillance equipment. Unique to Afghanistan is the additional cost of as much as $400 a gallon to deliver fuel to troops moving through mountainous terrain.
11
This is something that crossed my mind when I read just after the attack that one or two of the Doctors were outspoken critics of the Afghan government and had recently made serious allegations against government officials.
6
america could ( and most likely will ) stay in afg for 1, 000 years, and after that time it would still look exactly like it does now
every dollar, every death, every maiming is for NOTHING
your children and their children will curse you over your graves for embroiling them in this mess, robbing them of their future
every dollar, every death, every maiming is for NOTHING
your children and their children will curse you over your graves for embroiling them in this mess, robbing them of their future
6
Dear Godfrey Daniels,
Actually we can't stay in Afghanistan for a millennium, because nobody can. Water is running out there, within a century at most, it will be basically uninhabitable to humans. So there is no future there, and possibly within our lifetimes, there will be no war nor humans in that land. Just as well really.
Actually we can't stay in Afghanistan for a millennium, because nobody can. Water is running out there, within a century at most, it will be basically uninhabitable to humans. So there is no future there, and possibly within our lifetimes, there will be no war nor humans in that land. Just as well really.
1
It was a war crime. The punishment meted out to those involved was even more atrocious than the crime itself.
Think: if that hospital was say in Israel or Germany, the outcry and the punishments would have been severe.
I absolutely admire MSF - and I am so saddened by what keeps happening to them and the poor patients.
Think: if that hospital was say in Israel or Germany, the outcry and the punishments would have been severe.
I absolutely admire MSF - and I am so saddened by what keeps happening to them and the poor patients.
8
After I read about the initial bombing of the hospital, and the unbelievable courage of the Doctors Without Borders staff, I dug deep, deep into my pocket and gave them as much money as I could afford. I will do the same this year--and I hope everyone who reads this will consider doing likewise. These people are the heroes of our time.
5
Totally understandable, I was compelled to empty all the cash out of my wallet and burn it. Having pretty much the same effect, as the M.S.F. staff, honorable as they are, are just patching people up and letting them back out into an endless holy war, some to pick up AK-47's again and resume attacking their countrymen. Fixing the wounded in Afghanistan has about the same effect as fighting off the tide with a mop.
2
.....and I'm donating money to Medecins sans Frontieres all the time. It's hard to read such a report. What an ugly world.
9
Please, please do not misuse the word "tragedy". Tragedy has a very specific meaning. It is not synonymous with any bad thing that happens in the world. Human intent that comes back to bite one of the actors must be present. A meteor striking the earth is not a tragedy. This event is also not a tragedy. It appears to be policy that has not been regretted or changed.
1
This hospital bombing is a total no pass. Our taxpayer dollars killed those doctors and their patients. I suspect our real goal is to create enough enemies so we will be forever at war. This investigative report should be released to the American citizens who paid for the action and the report and it should be released with nothing redacted! We need to take all our toys and our money and our contractors out of the Mideast. Let the neighbors handle this. Haven't we done enough? Shame on us.. our forces knew where the M.S.F site was..many M.S. F spokespersons have attested to this. Out out out.
15
This version of events is quite plausible. In the Afghan mind there are only friends or enemies and if MSF was treating senior Taliban they became the enemy. Why the pilots did not question the nature of building that was lit up when they were only predators in the sky can only be marked down to incompetence and a lack of judgment. There are many ragged ends and blurred lines in the American mission in Afghanistan...President Obama has led us into a blind alley there instead of getting us out. The war will continue.
4
All of the evidence clearly indicates that the American forces knew exactly what they were doing. But the first half-dozen explanations offered up by the Pentagon were met with derision, so why not try a new one? "We were suckered by the Afghans!" Please. The NYT is once again complicit with the Pentagon in the propagation of another nonsense excuse.
6
The United States has signed the Geneva Conventions that forbid targeting marked hospitals and all hospital personnel. The Pentagon investigation and their limited disciplinary actions are not in compliance with the Geneva Conventions.
"The Geneva Conventions of 1949 provides immunity for civilians, hospitals, and medical staff. http://www.crimesofwar.org/a-z-guide/immunity-from-attack/#sthash.QPYRVe..."
The United States signed but has not ratified Article 90 of Protocol I that states "The High Contracting Parties may at the time of signing, ratifying or acceding to the Protocol, or at any other subsequent time, declare that they recognize ipso facto and without special agreement, in relation to any other High Contracting Party accepting the same obligation, the competence of the [International Fact-Finding] Commission to enquire into allegations by such other Party, as authorized by this Article."-Wikipedia
The International Court of Justice should authorize impartial investigations into the actions of all military forces attacking and destroying hospitals in war torn countries like Afghanistan, Syria, and elsewhere. The United States should not countenance violations of the Geneva Conventions by its own forces or by others.
"The Geneva Conventions of 1949 provides immunity for civilians, hospitals, and medical staff. http://www.crimesofwar.org/a-z-guide/immunity-from-attack/#sthash.QPYRVe..."
The United States signed but has not ratified Article 90 of Protocol I that states "The High Contracting Parties may at the time of signing, ratifying or acceding to the Protocol, or at any other subsequent time, declare that they recognize ipso facto and without special agreement, in relation to any other High Contracting Party accepting the same obligation, the competence of the [International Fact-Finding] Commission to enquire into allegations by such other Party, as authorized by this Article."-Wikipedia
The International Court of Justice should authorize impartial investigations into the actions of all military forces attacking and destroying hospitals in war torn countries like Afghanistan, Syria, and elsewhere. The United States should not countenance violations of the Geneva Conventions by its own forces or by others.
6
A hospital is destroyed. Dozens of innocents are slaughtered. The best that the Pentagon can offer is a heavily redacted report with claim that the Afghans used the Americans to exact revenge on purported facility that was aiding the Taliban.
I looked at the black and white picture of the burned remains of some poor soul. My first reaction was a feeling of great pity and sorrow. I looked at the picture of the chared skelton and asked god to please take care of that person whoever it was.
Now after throughly reading the article I now feel disgust. I am disgusted because years after this tragic war has begun it continues. I am disgusted because America declared victory, left Afghanistan and failed to complete its mission, least of all support those allied with the United States for all those years of battle and slaughter.
I am disgusted because our war time president failed miserably to provide the leadership and commitment necessary to bring this war to an end. And I am even more throughly disgusted by the claims of the Pentagon that the destruction of the hospital was caused by errors and miscommunications and overlooked clues to what was really being bombed.
Where are the great military leaders at the Pentagon who take responsibility for the actions of our troops? Where are the military leaders who will stand up to Mr. Obama and his ill-informed aides and demand either complete withdrawal or full engagement.
A piece meal war goes on forever. So do the deaths and tears.
I looked at the black and white picture of the burned remains of some poor soul. My first reaction was a feeling of great pity and sorrow. I looked at the picture of the chared skelton and asked god to please take care of that person whoever it was.
Now after throughly reading the article I now feel disgust. I am disgusted because years after this tragic war has begun it continues. I am disgusted because America declared victory, left Afghanistan and failed to complete its mission, least of all support those allied with the United States for all those years of battle and slaughter.
I am disgusted because our war time president failed miserably to provide the leadership and commitment necessary to bring this war to an end. And I am even more throughly disgusted by the claims of the Pentagon that the destruction of the hospital was caused by errors and miscommunications and overlooked clues to what was really being bombed.
Where are the great military leaders at the Pentagon who take responsibility for the actions of our troops? Where are the military leaders who will stand up to Mr. Obama and his ill-informed aides and demand either complete withdrawal or full engagement.
A piece meal war goes on forever. So do the deaths and tears.
55
An end is not possible if the Afghans we support are as feckless as the "leaders" described in this article. I would suggest we negotiate a settlement with our former enemy the Taliban, because they are far more organized and determined to win than the government we support. That wont happen without courageous leadership on our part. It's easier to let this continue while we slowly lose our resolve, wealth and reputation.
2
unfortunately, your reaction of disgust will have no effect on how wars are being conducted. Any criticisms of the military will be met with patriotic fervor and
warnings about what would happen if we weren't protected by them.
warnings about what would happen if we weren't protected by them.
1
I am a baby boomer. I was a college student during the last years of the Viet Nam war. I am also an Army veteran. I enlisted in October 1966, interrupting my college education because I believed it was my duty as a citizen to do what both my parents did in World War II. I came home disillusioned and filled with remorse and regret.
My disgust now is the same as then. Upon my return to home and college I joined in the protests of that war. My reaction and my writing will have effect. I have raised my voice and will continue to object to a war and an administration that prolongs the agony on all sides. A feckless and cowardly president who refuses to make a decision is not a leader. America needs leadership to end this conflict or come home and stand down. Our voices need to be heard.
The wars need to be fought with resolve and determination or our forces need to come home. I will raise my voice.
My disgust now is the same as then. Upon my return to home and college I joined in the protests of that war. My reaction and my writing will have effect. I have raised my voice and will continue to object to a war and an administration that prolongs the agony on all sides. A feckless and cowardly president who refuses to make a decision is not a leader. America needs leadership to end this conflict or come home and stand down. Our voices need to be heard.
The wars need to be fought with resolve and determination or our forces need to come home. I will raise my voice.
2
Victims fleeing from the assault are "squirters"?
Dehumanize those we are killing and we have reached a point of no return with respect to human rights. Justifying it by the savagry of those we are fighting doesn't wash. Who are we?
Dehumanize those we are killing and we have reached a point of no return with respect to human rights. Justifying it by the savagry of those we are fighting doesn't wash. Who are we?
15
All soldiers have to dehumanize their opponents. This is true in every culture, down through history.
I immediately thought it was a set up when it showed up in the news here.
3
This is "small stuff" compared with the "carpet bombing" performed on Baghdad when the Iraq conflict started. How many of us cheered to see bombs bursting in the night sky? Later, it became shrugged off as "collateral damage". Has anyone investigated how many hospitals, schools,... were destroyed then? Probably not, inasmuch as that event was chartered under a Republican president. Now, it is a Democrat who must carry the full burden of war-mongering Republicans.
11
get all american persons out of that country. if some wish to stay because they want to make money, then they should be on their own.
our government stays so that some people can make a lot of money and obtain or keep power. get out!
our government seems to be cheating our taxpayers.
our government stays so that some people can make a lot of money and obtain or keep power. get out!
our government seems to be cheating our taxpayers.
6
This tragedy is one of the many reasons I donate to MSF.
4
This tragedy is one of unfortunate reasons I do NOT donate to MSF most of time, except during the non military viral epidemic in North Africa.
1
@skeptic. I donate too and i donate proudly. It helps me to walk tall. As the commercial says, Priceless.
one bomb is an accident ... this is murder
39
Mathieu Aikins has performed a great service. He has let us hear the screams of the terrified, see the burnt remains of human beings, smell the mixture of bombs and burning flesh, witness the agony of victims and survivors. We, safe in our homes, far removed from this place of almost indescribable suffering, are no longer mildly-interested onlookers. We, ourselves, are a part and participant in all this. How can there be taking sides, except to in some way relieve this great suffering?
18
Excellent investigative reporting. Thank you for getting off the Trumpwagon and reporting the news.
87
MSF refuses to pay bribes. For that reason alone they were targeted by the "Afghan Army", aka a drug gang and US ally. Moral views and humanitarian mission are not a priority for US policy makers. Quite the opposite actually.
21
As much as read about water I was always lead to believe that American doctors didn't take into consideration if the wounded do sick was the enemy or not. A difficult situation when there's a shortage of medical supplies and personel. I'm not so sure I believed them.
American forces unlike previous wars take greater measures not to kill civilians but our allies might not share the same morality as we do. To them if someone aides their enemy the become the enemy and therefore should be killed.
On the ground this might not be clear as the in Hague or in a temp building in Arizona.
It has to be asked if these endless wars are more acceptable than a total war that might be more brutal but ends quickly?
American forces unlike previous wars take greater measures not to kill civilians but our allies might not share the same morality as we do. To them if someone aides their enemy the become the enemy and therefore should be killed.
On the ground this might not be clear as the in Hague or in a temp building in Arizona.
It has to be asked if these endless wars are more acceptable than a total war that might be more brutal but ends quickly?
2
Hiroshima and Nagasaki over 100,000 killed.
Hamburg 42,000 killed.
Dresden 25,000 killed.
The rules of war have changed but wars have no become endless. The goal is not victory but "management".
Hamburg 42,000 killed.
Dresden 25,000 killed.
The rules of war have changed but wars have no become endless. The goal is not victory but "management".
4
Obama with all his education and intelligence followed the disastrous policy of W. Bush. The fire is still burning, invaded countries desolate and depopulated with puppet governments. Bombing a DWB hospital makes big news because non Afghan doctors and staff were killed.
12
When things go wrong, there is always someone else to blame.
Get us out of there and leave the accountability to the people involved that are settling centuries old scores.
Get us out of there and leave the accountability to the people involved that are settling centuries old scores.
7
Frankly, my dear, I do not care who is at fault here. The reality is that the USofA has no business there anymore. Wait, let me backup a bit, USofA never had any business there to begin with.
If, I say "if" because I am still not sure, Bin Laden was the "king pin" to use the terminology from US criminal vernacular then good smart police work would have brought him in without the use of billions upon billions of dollars in military spending and infinitely valuable loss of lives of personnel from all across the globe. I consider the loss of ONE life as too many when we are in the hunt of a criminal.
So, this farce of mistaken bombing of a hospital and who is responsible is just that... a farce. We are wasting time on this discussion, whilst we ought to be thinking when are we going to STOP spending our money there and removing our military personnel from that place.
We have NO, absolutely NO, business there. If we want to buy something from there, then we need business folks, if we need to sell something there we need sales people, we do not need military personnel.
If, I say "if" because I am still not sure, Bin Laden was the "king pin" to use the terminology from US criminal vernacular then good smart police work would have brought him in without the use of billions upon billions of dollars in military spending and infinitely valuable loss of lives of personnel from all across the globe. I consider the loss of ONE life as too many when we are in the hunt of a criminal.
So, this farce of mistaken bombing of a hospital and who is responsible is just that... a farce. We are wasting time on this discussion, whilst we ought to be thinking when are we going to STOP spending our money there and removing our military personnel from that place.
We have NO, absolutely NO, business there. If we want to buy something from there, then we need business folks, if we need to sell something there we need sales people, we do not need military personnel.
33
Isn't there an oil pipeline that we want?
1
Yes. And China will build it; China will also mine the rare minerals in the North. We will do the fighting and China will profit. We will protect China's pipeline, just as we protect Afghan poppy growers. Now the Saudis and Israelis expect us to fight a proxy war against Iran.
shades of Black Hawk Down.... "We just lost the initiative...." Our great war for the Middle East is such a bad idea
Let's focus on the main point: this was a massacre of civilians by US military personnel, for which no criminal charges have been brought.
The fact that the NYT has trouble condemning either the massacre or the lack of accountability for it suggests a certain editorial blindness where wrongdoing by the US government is concerned. I'm afraid it also means that editorials condemning rights abuses by other governments will not be very credible.
The fact that the NYT has trouble condemning either the massacre or the lack of accountability for it suggests a certain editorial blindness where wrongdoing by the US government is concerned. I'm afraid it also means that editorials condemning rights abuses by other governments will not be very credible.
37
Why does the headline imply that Afghan forces were to blame for destroying the hospital when that is not the case? The attack was carried out by and the hospital was hit by a US military gunship. End of story. Though the US has been trying ever since the strike to pass the buck, the responsibility begins and ends with the US. Those in the US military and government who try to absolve themselves by saying that they were given bad intelligence are simply cowards who will not admit their own part in this tragedy.
17
The article clearly explained there was very little that was simple or easy to discern, and that the situation and the presence of so many people of each camp as well as "neutral" doctors, and hospital personnel who felt they had personal stakes in their actions there made it impossible to blame any one group. Every one of them had done at least several things they ought not to.
That's why it's called the "fog of war".
That's why it's called the "fog of war".
2
That's just more rationalization. When your finger is on the trigger and you choose to pull it, you're responsible for the death that follows. No one else. The US fired the shots into that hospital. It doesn't matter how much "fog" there was.
How is it even possible, in this day and age, with sophisticated mapping of any city, and state of the art technology in communication, incur in this supposedly unintended massacre? It escape comprehension. There is no redemption possible. Have we learned anything, regrets anybody? Or a "stuff just happens" attitude?
8
The times assumes, gratuitously, that the US government was correct in its conclusions. I gather the idea from Army Public Relations is to pass this off on the Afghans rather than having it known how culpable US personnel were.
7
I don't think you could come up with a better recruiting tool for ISIS, the Taliban and Al Qaeda than the "precision" US bombing campaigns. They kill 3 and 30 sign up for revenge against the Great Satan.
9
Bombing a hospital does seem to be satanic.
4
The United States military had been made aware of this hospital, which was squarely in territory that we have been occupying for well over a decade, and they were made aware of it multiple times. Bombing a neutral hospital in territory that is under your military occupation is a war crime, per se. That the Taliban was temporarily in control of the city, along with any and all uncorroborated accusations meant to scatter blame for this horror elsewhere -- these are immaterial to the question of whether or not this act of war was criminal.
Further, the internal investigation that this article cites contravenes international law on its face, and thus any findings are fruit from the poison tree.
To be clear, the United States has occupied Kunduz for 15 years, Médecins Sans Frontières had told the military where the hospital was, and doctors as well as patients were in fact calling the local US military authorities during the bombing raid, in what was I suppose a hopeless effort to stop the killing, which proceeded for another hour.
There is a third possible understanding of this event which this article eliminates from consideration, indeed the only understanding that the facts support: crime against humanity.
Further, the internal investigation that this article cites contravenes international law on its face, and thus any findings are fruit from the poison tree.
To be clear, the United States has occupied Kunduz for 15 years, Médecins Sans Frontières had told the military where the hospital was, and doctors as well as patients were in fact calling the local US military authorities during the bombing raid, in what was I suppose a hopeless effort to stop the killing, which proceeded for another hour.
There is a third possible understanding of this event which this article eliminates from consideration, indeed the only understanding that the facts support: crime against humanity.
31
If true, this is further proof that the U.S. military does not belong in that part of the world, nor do U.S. forces belong in the mid-East or Libya. The tribal cultures still existing in that part of the world do not have the same mores as those governing the majority of people in the Western world. Obama was right to have wanted us out of Iraq and Afghanistan in 2008. Too bad his instincts were clouded by "Intelligence" he later received as Commander in Chief. Did Truman and Eisenhower learn from Korea? Did Johnson learn from VietNam? What do they put in the water at the White House that makes smart Presidents believe in military solutions for local political problems that are not American problems to solve?
11
A USAF gunship bombs a hospital, kills 42 people, and no one in Congress says a word about it. No, they're too busy rehashing Benghazi, because it's much more important to trash Hillary Clinton than it is to debate the humanitarian consequences of our involvement in this never-ending war.
The Bush administration lied repeatedly to us about the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. The Obama administration is doing the same. What a waste.
The Bush administration lied repeatedly to us about the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. The Obama administration is doing the same. What a waste.
16
The conventional military has always been wary of special forces type units and until recent times was a career dead end for officers who pursued an assignment to such units. One reason is incidents such as this where the careers of multiple officers were impacted. But the use of our forces by our partners to settle scores is not new. One example is the Phoenix program in Vietnam where rivals reported that their enemies were (wrongly) VC assets and so were targeted for elimination.
4
General Schwarzkopf had an enormous distrust of unconventional forces due to his experiences in Vietnam and Granada where they had to be rescued from operations gone bad. In spite of that, in the first Persian Gulf war, which he commanded, they were used with some success, partly because of better command and and control instituted after the disaster of the hostage rescue mission in Iran in 1969. See http://www.socnet.com/archive/index.php/t-5644.html
3
“Not only was it a shock and travesty that they had” — what follows is redacted in the military’s report but seems to refer to how Afghan forces abandoned Kunduz City without a fight."
These Afghan soldiers know that the Taliban will ultimately control the country and are unwilling to die for a futile cause. Why are we allowing our young men and women to die for a war that is not ours?
These Afghan soldiers know that the Taliban will ultimately control the country and are unwilling to die for a futile cause. Why are we allowing our young men and women to die for a war that is not ours?
13
Obviously one can't trust the U.S. government to investigate itself. An independent investigation is needed.
102
And how often are enemy command posts the only brightly lit building in a blacked out city with war planes circling overhead? Seems like... uh... that would be the first kind of place to go dark.... by choice. Let's not scapegoat the Afghans to ease an American conscience. A bomber pilot looking down on -the-only- well lit building in a city without power should have immediately questioned the target identity.
117
And who knows? Maybe Taliban fighters were using the hospital as a safe haven. The Taliban have been known to use civilians as shields in the past. What better place to hide your forces than a hospital? That is part of the risk M.S.F. must assume if their current mission is to continue. It is as much their responsibility if not more. Let's not blame the US military for doing their job. M.S.F. chose to be in the combat zone. American armed forces did not.
Accidents are an unfortunate and inevitable result of war. Friendly fire deaths are always a certainty. Maybe M.S.F. should review their policies.
Accidents are an unfortunate and inevitable result of war. Friendly fire deaths are always a certainty. Maybe M.S.F. should review their policies.
2
The pilots actually did question, and multiple times, the identity of the target. For over 30 minutes. In addition, they repeatedly questioned they had the target after the initial volleys. (That is in the NYT's article over the attacks).
This was always of the Afghans doing --they told the BBC that the Hospital was bombed as it provided care to everyone, including the Taliban.
What is truly scandalous is that the US had no boots on the ground to absolutely confirm the target --or drones to do so. The US came in and bombed, assuming that well, if they were a bit off, who would know... And of course, the US had the precise coordinates of the hospital but did not bother to check...
This was always of the Afghans doing --they told the BBC that the Hospital was bombed as it provided care to everyone, including the Taliban.
What is truly scandalous is that the US had no boots on the ground to absolutely confirm the target --or drones to do so. The US came in and bombed, assuming that well, if they were a bit off, who would know... And of course, the US had the precise coordinates of the hospital but did not bother to check...
1
That any US aircraft commander believed Taliban would be hiding, essentially, UNDER SPOTLIGHTS in a darkened city is incomprehensibly incompetent.
That anyone calls -accountability- some kind of attack on the US military is incomprehensibly blind to the truth.
We don't blame the military for doing it's job.... we blame it for doing it's job BADLY.
That anyone calls -accountability- some kind of attack on the US military is incomprehensibly blind to the truth.
We don't blame the military for doing it's job.... we blame it for doing it's job BADLY.
O i get it. The NYT totally blames the Amricahn military and says that the discipline over the incident was lax. And now it looks like the Afghans had something to do with it. Wow did not see that coming considering how duplicitous they are .
Here is a head line you will never see in the NYT "We were wrong to rush to judgment, we apologize." Of course that headline could have been used myriad times in the last few years. This incident, Ferguson, etc.
Next headline will be. "US rightly apologizes for dropping atomic bomb on nation that killed millions of Chinese citizens and tortured and executed US POW's including 300,00 Chinese citizens in Nanking in 3 nights, most of them women and children."
Here is a head line you will never see in the NYT "We were wrong to rush to judgment, we apologize." Of course that headline could have been used myriad times in the last few years. This incident, Ferguson, etc.
Next headline will be. "US rightly apologizes for dropping atomic bomb on nation that killed millions of Chinese citizens and tortured and executed US POW's including 300,00 Chinese citizens in Nanking in 3 nights, most of them women and children."
14
And it is not the American's military's role to exercise safeguards to avoid being taken in by "allies" who have proven to be duplicitious in the past?
2
Right! So obvious that the appropriate response to Japanese atrocities was an atrocity of our own. After all, it was the women and children of Hiroshima who had killed the women and children of Nanking.
Ah no. The US military would have nothing to do with the
Afghans if it was up to them. The US government makes them work with them. Most of the Afghan military are worthless, corrupt or would turn their guns on the US soldiers for the right amount of money.
Afghans if it was up to them. The US government makes them work with them. Most of the Afghan military are worthless, corrupt or would turn their guns on the US soldiers for the right amount of money.
1
Obviously these hospitals are being targeted because they serve the Taliban. They should not care for wounded enemy soldiers, who are released to fight another day. If these Doctors want to stay on the ethical side of medicine, they should not treat enemy combatants.
6
really ???
1
Evidence? Also, what exactly is your understanding of the ethical side of medicine? You might want to look into that....
2
Nonsense Jennifer. Doctors do, and should, attend to sick people, no matter whose "side" they are on. I cannot fathom your peculiar notion of medicine. If your child were in the war zone, and the "other side" proclaimed that DWB should not attend to him or her, would you consider that either rational or humane. Of course not. Oh, right, you think god's on our side. Listen to Bob Dylan's old song on that score. No god's on everybody's side and opposed to war. Or if she isn't opposed to war, I guess that's not a god worth believing in. Our bomber pilot killed those medical workers and patients. That's murder in my book. There is no self-defense defense in that context.
6
Let's own our mistakes so we can learn from them.Clinton and Trump
perfectly illustrate our inability to hold a conviction,accept responsibility
for crimes or mistakes and to admit those those crimes and mistakes.
perfectly illustrate our inability to hold a conviction,accept responsibility
for crimes or mistakes and to admit those those crimes and mistakes.
5
The article answers most of the questions it poses.
It starts with the all too familiar narrative about those “in authority” and most familiar with what’s going on: “Though Kunduz City was home to thousands of Afghan army, police and intelligence personnel, its defenses quickly collapsed, the officers fleeing in disarray to the airport on a plateau overlooking the city.” This after 15 years of coalition attempts to create an indigenous police and defense force.
So, in come the “cavalry” and with short notice, suspect intelligence, faulty equipment and having to make split second decisions, mistakes were made. The “cavalry” – be they Afghans, British or Americans – are not community organizers; their job is to take out an enemy as swiftly as possible. They are not the ones who stand in front of the podiums saying, “we are winning the war in…wherever”.
I respect the military’s decision in not pursuing criminal charges. Clearly a grave error was made and disciplining 16 service members and relieving Hutchinson of his command clearly recognizes this.
“Is there still a place in today’s wars for a hospital to treat all sides?” You mean a rekindling of the spirit that saw German and British troops put down their weapons and organize an intra-nation soccer match at Christmas in 1914? Not really – wars creates an enmity that is unimaginable unless one is in the midst of it. Survival, hatred, suspicion, revenge are all characteristics that come too readily to the surface.
It starts with the all too familiar narrative about those “in authority” and most familiar with what’s going on: “Though Kunduz City was home to thousands of Afghan army, police and intelligence personnel, its defenses quickly collapsed, the officers fleeing in disarray to the airport on a plateau overlooking the city.” This after 15 years of coalition attempts to create an indigenous police and defense force.
So, in come the “cavalry” and with short notice, suspect intelligence, faulty equipment and having to make split second decisions, mistakes were made. The “cavalry” – be they Afghans, British or Americans – are not community organizers; their job is to take out an enemy as swiftly as possible. They are not the ones who stand in front of the podiums saying, “we are winning the war in…wherever”.
I respect the military’s decision in not pursuing criminal charges. Clearly a grave error was made and disciplining 16 service members and relieving Hutchinson of his command clearly recognizes this.
“Is there still a place in today’s wars for a hospital to treat all sides?” You mean a rekindling of the spirit that saw German and British troops put down their weapons and organize an intra-nation soccer match at Christmas in 1914? Not really – wars creates an enmity that is unimaginable unless one is in the midst of it. Survival, hatred, suspicion, revenge are all characteristics that come too readily to the surface.
1
Absolutely horrifying then and now.
6
That the Afghan government does not see the merit in patching up Taliban fighters and is therefore suspicious of doctors without borders is understandable. The Geneva Convention came about just because of similar events in WWII. What is incomprehensible is that the U.S. is taking their orders from the Afghans. The United States has been in Afghanistan for about 15 years. If after 15 years the Afghans still need "advice" and to be "trained" - then it looks like that they will never learn. When Afghan troops fled during the battle for Kunduz - you know who was left? We were. You know will always be left holding the bag in Afgahnistan? Us. It is time - once and for all -to cut all ties with Afghanistan. We still need the slogan "Bring the Troops home".
51
One of the things the "Geneva Convention", actually 4 conventions and 3 additional protocols, says is that its parties should in times of peace and in times of war disseminate the contents of those conventions to the public so they will understand their fundamental principles. It's quite obvious from your interesting history of the Conventions that this isn't happening.
Why would thousands of police and other Afghan forces desert their post just because28 soldiers from the other side attacked.
I don't think it's because they weren't trained properly or because they are scared.
If there were literally thousands of Afghani forces there surely should have been at least 100 who were trained properly and would not desert.
There must have been more than 28 soldiers attacking that day from the other side who had at the most machine guns.
We need more troops there not less.
There should have been a tank unit manned by Americans who would have been able to stop the city from being lost to the Taliban.
It's because Obama does not know how to fight a war do these things happen.
We can not leave because the country would become the homeland to ISIS.
We have to stop playing games and send in the troops to win and keep some of those troops to fight the Talban (not to advise the Afghanis)there as the Talban can not be defeated because we can not identify who is a Talban soldier and who isn't so the minute we leave the Talban can come out from hiding and just reorganize as a cohesive force.
This is very similar to what is going on in Gaza.
There is no way to tell Hamas from the civilians there and the only way to defeat the Talban forces or Hamas is to get the civilians to stop supporting them.
Much more.
I don't think it's because they weren't trained properly or because they are scared.
If there were literally thousands of Afghani forces there surely should have been at least 100 who were trained properly and would not desert.
There must have been more than 28 soldiers attacking that day from the other side who had at the most machine guns.
We need more troops there not less.
There should have been a tank unit manned by Americans who would have been able to stop the city from being lost to the Taliban.
It's because Obama does not know how to fight a war do these things happen.
We can not leave because the country would become the homeland to ISIS.
We have to stop playing games and send in the troops to win and keep some of those troops to fight the Talban (not to advise the Afghanis)there as the Talban can not be defeated because we can not identify who is a Talban soldier and who isn't so the minute we leave the Talban can come out from hiding and just reorganize as a cohesive force.
This is very similar to what is going on in Gaza.
There is no way to tell Hamas from the civilians there and the only way to defeat the Talban forces or Hamas is to get the civilians to stop supporting them.
Much more.
The whitewash continues. If this were the only incident of a hospital being attacked, then the legend might have some credibility. But the facts speak otherwise. The FACs directing the fire were US forces; the AC-130's sensors were able to clearly identify the building as a hospital AND geolocate it to the coordinates provided by MSF. Perhaps the Afghans did want to target the hospital, but it was Americans who did it, who continued the attack despite pleas from MSF.
What we have here is another American war crime, and another attempt (this time by the media instead of the Government) to explain it away. The only way things like this will stop happening is if everyone up the chain of command goes to jail, providing a good example to their successors. But we know that will not happen, because the USA no longer is a land of equal justice for all.
What we have here is another American war crime, and another attempt (this time by the media instead of the Government) to explain it away. The only way things like this will stop happening is if everyone up the chain of command goes to jail, providing a good example to their successors. But we know that will not happen, because the USA no longer is a land of equal justice for all.
17
So our special forces are behaving like Einsatzgruppen. Killing 42 civilians with the full purpose to kill every last man, woman and child. In a hospital. And all we get is 'oops'.
We unleash on the world a brutality of maddening proportions. We lost 87, but what is the kill ratio? 1:100?
The drone wars, unaccountable to anyone, secret killing of non-uniformed. Do we know what the by-kill is?
We have no business in the Islamic world. We have no business to train precision killers who talk about squirters when they extinguish a human life.
No shining city on the hill here.
We unleash on the world a brutality of maddening proportions. We lost 87, but what is the kill ratio? 1:100?
The drone wars, unaccountable to anyone, secret killing of non-uniformed. Do we know what the by-kill is?
We have no business in the Islamic world. We have no business to train precision killers who talk about squirters when they extinguish a human life.
No shining city on the hill here.
38
Since 2001, the U.S. has spent upwards of $1Trillion (that's 1000 Billions!) there on war, military assistance and humanitarian aid, and to what effect nobody can really say. That's not much less than the federal government's contribution to U.S. public infrastructure spending over that same period of time. Think about that a minute if you care to.
Meanwhile, Afghan society remains rife with corruption, fanaticism, civil war, drug trafficking and opioid addiction, paranoia, brutal treatment of women and girls, not to mention Al Qaeda, the Taliban, and now ISIS all fighting each other and everyone else. How's the civil infrastructure? Well, DWB is the main provider of key health services in many parts of the country if that tells you anything. I can't imagine the risks those doctors and other aid workers assume.
What's my point? I don't know, really, except maybe we should spend a lot less there. Stop trying so hard. I don't see how we can abandon it altogether, we must (with world allies) continue to assist with aid and security, but why so much? Or how about helping more of the women and children escape to a better life somewhere else, leave the rest to the warlords, watch it and contain it, and maybe convince the Chinese to take a turn invading the place in a couple decades.
Meanwhile, Afghan society remains rife with corruption, fanaticism, civil war, drug trafficking and opioid addiction, paranoia, brutal treatment of women and girls, not to mention Al Qaeda, the Taliban, and now ISIS all fighting each other and everyone else. How's the civil infrastructure? Well, DWB is the main provider of key health services in many parts of the country if that tells you anything. I can't imagine the risks those doctors and other aid workers assume.
What's my point? I don't know, really, except maybe we should spend a lot less there. Stop trying so hard. I don't see how we can abandon it altogether, we must (with world allies) continue to assist with aid and security, but why so much? Or how about helping more of the women and children escape to a better life somewhere else, leave the rest to the warlords, watch it and contain it, and maybe convince the Chinese to take a turn invading the place in a couple decades.
5
It is those who got that 1 trillion who own and operate our government! Our country has been sold to those who profit from war.
4
It was already established that it was an American airstrike. How hard is it to take responsibility for your actions? Now you're trying to blame it on the Afghans. Pathetic.
15
That's just the NYT reporting. The military didn't blame the Afghans.
Amazing reporting. Matthieu Aikens deserves a Pulitzer Prize. The skill with which he dug out the facts, both on paper and on the ground, at obviously great personal risk, is extraordinary. Everyone should read this, particularly the US military. He shows their deception, how they omitted a key factor in the chain of events causing this terrible suffering.
18
Just one more reason the US should exit Afghanistan posthaste.
The idea that the US has any critical interests in Afghanistan is absurd at this point. The money and blood we are spending could be put to far better use here at home.
The idea that the US has any critical interests in Afghanistan is absurd at this point. The money and blood we are spending could be put to far better use here at home.
43
Nothing, nothing would surprise me with this group. After all, US troops are pretty much told to turn a blind eye to the appalling, revolting, disgusting practice of bacha baazi.
20
"The moderation of violence is part of the very logic of violence. Humanitarianism, human rights and international humanitarian law, when abided by state, supra-state and military action, have become the crucial means by which the economy of violence is calculated and managed. Within this present condition, all political oppositions are replaced by the elasticity of degrees, negotiations, proportions and balances."
-- Eyal Weizman, The Least of All Possible Evils: Humanitarian Violence from Arendt to Gaza
-- Eyal Weizman, The Least of All Possible Evils: Humanitarian Violence from Arendt to Gaza
4
It is way past time for ALL American troops to leave this corrupt and medieval country called Afghanistan. No more American blood, energy, and resources should be expended on this G--forsaken land, and we should withdraw NOW!
Maybe it's time for M.S.F. to get out, too.
Maybe it's time for M.S.F. to get out, too.
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"this corrupt and medieval country called Afghanistan."
Are you talking about VW and Panama scandals, House speakers and jailed politicians and Governors? Everybody went through medieval times with its chivalry and pageantry and troubadours, what is wrong wit being medieval?
Are you talking about VW and Panama scandals, House speakers and jailed politicians and Governors? Everybody went through medieval times with its chivalry and pageantry and troubadours, what is wrong wit being medieval?
The doubling down of the Afghan war is president Obama's biggest mistake. In his first presidential campaign he insisted that Bush's mistake of abandoning Afghanistan and starting the Iraq war was a strategic blunder. Does anyone think Afghanistan has a secure future as a civilized nation? The Russians warned us, stay out of the graveyard of empires. Just declare victory and leave.
17
There is so much I want to say after reading this terrific article by Mr. Aikins, but my anger, frustration and despair are colluding to make any thoughtful comment nearly impossible.
My life here in New York is luxurious when compared to the horrific realities on the ground in places like Afghanistan, Syria and Iraq.
The road to peace and prosperity remains elusive.
My life here in New York is luxurious when compared to the horrific realities on the ground in places like Afghanistan, Syria and Iraq.
The road to peace and prosperity remains elusive.
12
Great reporting Matthieu. Sitting here 7,000 miles away from this scene, it's impossible for me to reach conclusions. I only hope that the living are coping and that the dead are mourned.
14
The United States exports terror around the world - don't think for a minute the bombing was an accident. We partner with entities we know nothing about - they take advantage of the U.S. The leaders of Afghan have enriched themselves from the billions of dollars in 'aid' we've supplied - it's a farce. Opium drives the economy in Afghanistan and the crop is controlled by the Taliban. We should never have gone to such a forsaken, corrupt part of the world, and we should definitely not be there now! We were the 'terrorists' in that bombing - no one can say otherwise.
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The Talib cracked down on opium growing in 2001. No crop was planted until after 911. When the opium lords knew we would attack the Fallback, then they planted the crop. Now we have a huge heroin problem in the United States. The Afghans have only two ways to make money. Hunting trips for military personnel since the time of Ceasar. And heroin to provide a tool for various criminal organizations to enslave people in the sex trade and to tax nations through sales to addicts.
The locals use us like tools to kill their enemies and settle old scores. Some of their blood feuds are hundreds of years old. They lie to our intelligence agents, tell them so-and-so is "Taliban". Our military then hunts them down and kills them -- and anyone unlucky enough to be with them at the time -- later claiming it as a victory.
Our military stupidly, witlessly plays along because it hasn't a clue what it's doing. Our extrajudicial murders fuel the very insurrections we're trying to suppress. It's the closest thing to a perpetual motion machine to be found on Planet Earth. We aren't just doomed to defeat there, we already are defeated. Our leaders are just too stubborn to acknowledge it.
Our military stupidly, witlessly plays along because it hasn't a clue what it's doing. Our extrajudicial murders fuel the very insurrections we're trying to suppress. It's the closest thing to a perpetual motion machine to be found on Planet Earth. We aren't just doomed to defeat there, we already are defeated. Our leaders are just too stubborn to acknowledge it.
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Yes "our murders fuel the very insurrections we're trying to suppress". That may well be the point. There is not enough profit in peace..or in just getting out..perpetual enemies IS the goal.
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We don't allow our children to point the finger and say, "He made me do it...."So the strongest military in the world didn't know this was a hospital????Doubtful.
1
It is not "military stupidity" - it is the political civilian commanders that are stupid, including the POTUS and the long line of interventionist Neocon "advisers" and "experts" that have plagued American foreign policy for decades. The military has been ordered to do an impossible job: magically change a pagan barbarian medieval Islamic society/country into a liberal democratic Western style country over night. And it would not and could not happen in 1000 years, not anywhere in any Muslim country.
2
It is easy to sit safe thousands of miles away and pass judgement on actions you only hear about. Nobody knows what combat is really like unless they have experienced it themselves. War is truly hell.
While I applaud M.S.F. for their dedication and selfless efforts they must be aware of the extreme risk they put themselves in by treating combatants from both sides. If their mission in Afghanistan is to continue they must be willing to accept that risk and suffer casualties.
While I applaud M.S.F. for their dedication and selfless efforts they must be aware of the extreme risk they put themselves in by treating combatants from both sides. If their mission in Afghanistan is to continue they must be willing to accept that risk and suffer casualties.
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I agree. War is truly hell, but it is also chaos, with soldiers subject to stress that most of us cannot imagine required to make decisions with life or death consequences based on imperfect information.
2
I am working in a dangerous country, with MSF, as I write this. Security and safety is paramount, otherwise we do not stay on the ground. I would not have come here if I felt in danger. Indeed our presence in a conflict zone sometimes makes the community (feel) reassured, yes, safer.
Our volunteers wish to serve and return home alive.
You will read that even the militia, whatever you may think of them, respected our rules; you leave your weapons outside. A wounded child or an unarmed wounded soldier are both civilians in international law, even on the fetid fields of war.
There is not really much more to unearth now, knowing that US forces deliberately targeted a lighted hospital and immolated unarmed men, women and children, caregivers and patients. That fact is more than established, and those responsible have to pay.
Do not dare ask me or my colleagues to accept any more risk than we usually do; the blame lies squarely on those who did this.
Our volunteers wish to serve and return home alive.
You will read that even the militia, whatever you may think of them, respected our rules; you leave your weapons outside. A wounded child or an unarmed wounded soldier are both civilians in international law, even on the fetid fields of war.
There is not really much more to unearth now, knowing that US forces deliberately targeted a lighted hospital and immolated unarmed men, women and children, caregivers and patients. That fact is more than established, and those responsible have to pay.
Do not dare ask me or my colleagues to accept any more risk than we usually do; the blame lies squarely on those who did this.
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We cannot allow only those who have seen combat to dictate our foreign policy. We civilians who are disgusted by this military excess have a right to be involved.
7
Oh, so it is Afghans who are to blame?
"On 3 October 2015, a United States Air Force AC-130U gunship attacked the Kunduz Trauma Centre operated by Médecins Sans Frontières (MSF), "
It was a USAF gunship.
If this had happened under the Bush administration, there would have been widespread outrage in these pages.
"On 3 October 2015, a United States Air Force AC-130U gunship attacked the Kunduz Trauma Centre operated by Médecins Sans Frontières (MSF), "
It was a USAF gunship.
If this had happened under the Bush administration, there would have been widespread outrage in these pages.
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Fact , there has been widespread outrage , over and over. And over . Come on really? Your politics showing.
The issue disvussed here is the insane slippery slope of the whole Afghan fiasco which continues. American forces and our representatives did this. The article simply lays out the lack of control of the whole situation. Dumber than dirt in our arrogance and premise to enter this vortex of insanity.
No excuse that I see for this mistake/murder , call it both, just another reality check. How do we get out? That is the question we all should be asking.
The issue disvussed here is the insane slippery slope of the whole Afghan fiasco which continues. American forces and our representatives did this. The article simply lays out the lack of control of the whole situation. Dumber than dirt in our arrogance and premise to enter this vortex of insanity.
No excuse that I see for this mistake/murder , call it both, just another reality check. How do we get out? That is the question we all should be asking.
15
"Fact , there has been widespread outrage , over and over. And over . Come on really? Your politics showing."
I do not have politics, I am only pointing to YOURS.
I am a left wing person in many (but not all) ways and it bothers me when Obama kills just as much as it bothers me when a Republican kills.
And yes, there is far less discussion of Kunduz than there is of bathrooms in North Carolina. THAT lack of discussion is an outrage.
I do not have politics, I am only pointing to YOURS.
I am a left wing person in many (but not all) ways and it bothers me when Obama kills just as much as it bothers me when a Republican kills.
And yes, there is far less discussion of Kunduz than there is of bathrooms in North Carolina. THAT lack of discussion is an outrage.
2
Nice of the Pentagon saying 'sorry' 3 months later. Anybody care here? anybody talk about it? any hearings? no no and no. So when Syrian hospitals are attacked by 'accident'? who's gonna complain here?.
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The War President Obama should get all US forces out of foreign countries, instead of imitating Bush, which he does to conform to the prevailing ethos. Read the recent article in the Atlantic on his "doctrine" and the recent article, I believe in this newspaper, on his close advisor who manipulates media, including journalists, to spin things so they go Obama's way, and who says it would be nice to have rational discussions about policy but that is not possible!
Our first gray president turns out to be like all the rest.
Think for yourself?
Our first gray president turns out to be like all the rest.
Think for yourself?
10
Why has President Obama not brought our troops home? There is no mission to complete in Afghanistan - the people there are just as wretched as they were before 9/11, and they don't seem to care who rules them, whether they're democratically-elected warlords, pimps, and drug runners, or sharia-imposing religious killers.
By leaving our troops in Afghanistan and Iraq, President Obama has done worse to them than George W. Bush, and has prolonged this meaningless war. This is another Vietnam.
Bring the troops home, now. We owe the Afghanis and the Iraqis nothing.
By leaving our troops in Afghanistan and Iraq, President Obama has done worse to them than George W. Bush, and has prolonged this meaningless war. This is another Vietnam.
Bring the troops home, now. We owe the Afghanis and the Iraqis nothing.
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"We owe the Afghanis and the Iraqis nothing. "
Nothing? Not even an apology (with Russians, and other European powers which joined us in the invasion of Iraq, for turning their countries into hell?
Nothing? Not even an apology (with Russians, and other European powers which joined us in the invasion of Iraq, for turning their countries into hell?
4
I have worked with MSF on three occasions---once in a civil war in Africa, but twice in poverty-stricken areas where our enemy was disease and lack of clean water. Disease killed more people than gunships.
KarlosTJ the United States attacked Iraq and Afghanistan. To say that Obama “has done worse to them than Bush” is crazy.
The USA is the one with the overwhelming military-the one with 105 mm guns. WE are the highly trained military who killed ~500,000 civilians in Iraq alone. Now we should just leave? You know NOTHING about war...the US knows zip about war. The WORST thing we have endured was 3,000 people killed 15 years ago on 9/11. Since then 45 American citizens have died within our borders from Middle East terrorism. More toddlers have been killed by other children under five y/o by our crazy gun violence here in America.
We understand NOTHING of what we have done to these countries.
I know one thing...you have never served in the military. You understand NOTHING of how a peaceful people have been wiped out by competing troops. You speak despicably of sharia law when Christians have caused the deaths of thousands in the USA. Remember our Civil War? States’ Rights? When the southern generals said God was on their side and Africans were NOT children of God?
I quit MSF as I felt we couldn’t stay neutral. In an increasingly partisan world, we would no longer be greeted as a humane institution not choosing sides.
We started this mess...we can’t leave.
KarlosTJ the United States attacked Iraq and Afghanistan. To say that Obama “has done worse to them than Bush” is crazy.
The USA is the one with the overwhelming military-the one with 105 mm guns. WE are the highly trained military who killed ~500,000 civilians in Iraq alone. Now we should just leave? You know NOTHING about war...the US knows zip about war. The WORST thing we have endured was 3,000 people killed 15 years ago on 9/11. Since then 45 American citizens have died within our borders from Middle East terrorism. More toddlers have been killed by other children under five y/o by our crazy gun violence here in America.
We understand NOTHING of what we have done to these countries.
I know one thing...you have never served in the military. You understand NOTHING of how a peaceful people have been wiped out by competing troops. You speak despicably of sharia law when Christians have caused the deaths of thousands in the USA. Remember our Civil War? States’ Rights? When the southern generals said God was on their side and Africans were NOT children of God?
I quit MSF as I felt we couldn’t stay neutral. In an increasingly partisan world, we would no longer be greeted as a humane institution not choosing sides.
We started this mess...we can’t leave.
7
Fundamentally, we humans are very similar in our disputes with one another.
It's all very well hand waving and claiming vaguely that the people of Afghanistan 'don't seem to care who rules them'. Do you actually know any of the stories of all these people whom you dismiss so airily as being in effect less than human?
Of course, the people care who rule them. Humans care about this everywhere. Especially those without power: women, youngsters and the old, the sick and the infirm, gays, lesbians and transsexual Afghanis.
Also the adult males, even the most powerful, care. They care very much. They care, indeed, too much.
That's almost the whole problem. The many big and smaller bosses of the largest group the Pathans, aka the Pashtuns, don't want to be told what to do by the big and smaller bosses of any of the smaller lingo-ethnic groups, and vice versa. Within the Pathans themselves, there's a never-ending struggle for dominance between the tribes, within each tribe a constant competition between the clans, within each clan a never-ending dispute between families, and within families, an eternal tussle for status between individuals.
Indeed, the difference between the endless competitions between individuals and groups over scant resources in Afghanistan and those in the USA is that the USA has the unbloodied, so-civilized and courteous disagreements between the power brokers of the Dems and the GOP, plus the unpredictable inputs of outsider warlords like Trump.
It's all very well hand waving and claiming vaguely that the people of Afghanistan 'don't seem to care who rules them'. Do you actually know any of the stories of all these people whom you dismiss so airily as being in effect less than human?
Of course, the people care who rule them. Humans care about this everywhere. Especially those without power: women, youngsters and the old, the sick and the infirm, gays, lesbians and transsexual Afghanis.
Also the adult males, even the most powerful, care. They care very much. They care, indeed, too much.
That's almost the whole problem. The many big and smaller bosses of the largest group the Pathans, aka the Pashtuns, don't want to be told what to do by the big and smaller bosses of any of the smaller lingo-ethnic groups, and vice versa. Within the Pathans themselves, there's a never-ending struggle for dominance between the tribes, within each tribe a constant competition between the clans, within each clan a never-ending dispute between families, and within families, an eternal tussle for status between individuals.
Indeed, the difference between the endless competitions between individuals and groups over scant resources in Afghanistan and those in the USA is that the USA has the unbloodied, so-civilized and courteous disagreements between the power brokers of the Dems and the GOP, plus the unpredictable inputs of outsider warlords like Trump.
1
For US troops not knowing that they were bombing a DWB hospital is hard to believe. Kunduz is a major city with always a massive ISAF/NATO airbase (run by the Germans). Bombing that hospital in the center of town is about the same as bombing Grand Central in Manhattan - and to do that for a whole hour. Pleaseeee. It explains why General Campbell so quickly retired.
145
Pure evil, they knew it was a hospital and didn't care. Step up donations to rebuild. Everyone deserves medical care President Obama, even Afghanis. Civilians were murdered by our troops in a neutral zone. Where is the outrage?
1
Treating injured soldiers is going to put these hospitals at risk. It is possible that these hospitals should limit themselves to women and children or entirely leave the region. Military organizations should be providing their own medical care.
58
You are proposing, then, to change the Geneva Convention?
15
MSF has been in Afghanistan for 35 years. They are doctors. They know what they're doing. They have a strong sense of responsibility. If they left, there would be no medical care.
Medical ethics, in their view (and mine) requires them to treat everyone in need, regardless of political affiliation.
At one point, Colin Powell did give orders for American forces to provide medical care to civilians on "our" side, provided they would turn in the Taliban. As a result, the Taliban decided (with some justification) that the American medical services were enemy forces that didn't deserve the protection of non-combatant neutrality, and started attacking them. This led to a situation in which no medical forces were safe, including MSF, and MSF had to withdraw.
The New England Journal of Medicine had an article about this. They described a German obstetrician crying because she had to leave her patients behind. (Afghanistan has the highest maternal and infant mortality rate in the world.)
Norman Bethune, the Canadian Communist doctor who served the Chinese under Mao, described in 1939 how he treated Chinese and Japanese enemy soldiers alike. http://noosphere.princeton.edu/bethune.html
"Any more? Four Japanese prisoners. Bring them in. In this community of pain, there are no enemies. Cut away that blood-stained uniform. Stop that haemorrhage. Lay them beside the others. Why, they're alike as brothers!"
Medical ethics, in their view (and mine) requires them to treat everyone in need, regardless of political affiliation.
At one point, Colin Powell did give orders for American forces to provide medical care to civilians on "our" side, provided they would turn in the Taliban. As a result, the Taliban decided (with some justification) that the American medical services were enemy forces that didn't deserve the protection of non-combatant neutrality, and started attacking them. This led to a situation in which no medical forces were safe, including MSF, and MSF had to withdraw.
The New England Journal of Medicine had an article about this. They described a German obstetrician crying because she had to leave her patients behind. (Afghanistan has the highest maternal and infant mortality rate in the world.)
Norman Bethune, the Canadian Communist doctor who served the Chinese under Mao, described in 1939 how he treated Chinese and Japanese enemy soldiers alike. http://noosphere.princeton.edu/bethune.html
"Any more? Four Japanese prisoners. Bring them in. In this community of pain, there are no enemies. Cut away that blood-stained uniform. Stop that haemorrhage. Lay them beside the others. Why, they're alike as brothers!"
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I am not donating to an organization the provides medical care to military combatants. That "brother" you mention will kill civilians and military without compunction.
2
If Special Forces along are going to continue to handle all aspects of all of our conflicts and missions, and conventional forces aren't to be used other than for support, it is incumbent upon Command and Congress to provide them with the additional manpower necessary to handle those assignments.
To send the same troops on battle missions repeatedly, and/or undermanned, is patently wrong. Even if they can survive, they need additional, sufficient numbers to give them time to recoup their strength and maintain their sanity, between assignments.
To send the same troops on battle missions repeatedly, and/or undermanned, is patently wrong. Even if they can survive, they need additional, sufficient numbers to give them time to recoup their strength and maintain their sanity, between assignments.
2
MSF hospitals have been hit 3 times that I know of. Convinced these are targeted hits. Very sad to hear.
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