Police are afraid because so many people have guns, they will keep shooting to kill.
This is a textbook example of how not to approach and then confront someone who's clearly mentally disturbed. People who live on the raw edge of reality are often loud, seemingly agitated and aggressive and spew streams of obscenities. At that moment as distasteful and difficult as they appear, they're rarely dangerous ... for the moment.
I'm sorry to say that the first mistake was made by the cashier who confronted Mr. Conrad and demanded an ID. That provoked and enraged him. The cashier should have just allowed him to pay and leave. Having said that, the next series of mistakes were made by the police who clearly did not know how to deal effectively with an agitated but extremely fearful psychotic. If I'm reading this accurately, once Mr. Conrad was forced out of the store an NYPD officer grabbed Mr. Conrad and they both went to the pavement. Mr. Conrad arose with a knife in his hand ... and we know the rest of the story.
To the NYPD ... Mr. Conrad was a frightened psychotic who's ability to deal with any kind of social situation including being told to put down the knife is extremely limited. You cannot expect that he's going to behave in a manner that resembles what you expect or in this situation, that you demand. The first thing you needed to do once he pulled out the knife was to retreat and seal off the area. You need time to talk him down. He's not a rabid animal to be exterminated, he's a mentally disturbed and frightened human being.
I'm sorry to say that the first mistake was made by the cashier who confronted Mr. Conrad and demanded an ID. That provoked and enraged him. The cashier should have just allowed him to pay and leave. Having said that, the next series of mistakes were made by the police who clearly did not know how to deal effectively with an agitated but extremely fearful psychotic. If I'm reading this accurately, once Mr. Conrad was forced out of the store an NYPD officer grabbed Mr. Conrad and they both went to the pavement. Mr. Conrad arose with a knife in his hand ... and we know the rest of the story.
To the NYPD ... Mr. Conrad was a frightened psychotic who's ability to deal with any kind of social situation including being told to put down the knife is extremely limited. You cannot expect that he's going to behave in a manner that resembles what you expect or in this situation, that you demand. The first thing you needed to do once he pulled out the knife was to retreat and seal off the area. You need time to talk him down. He's not a rabid animal to be exterminated, he's a mentally disturbed and frightened human being.
3
8" knife, 9 shots. One shot too many?
Whatever happened to shooting someone in the leg, say once or twice?
Hindsight is 20/20, and if I had been there out of fear I might have shot him 10 times, but I am not trained to use lethal force.
I suspect this guy was suffering from some type of mental disorder and he probably presented a "clear and present danger," but does this merit 9 shots?
Is the new norm that when you pull a gun you empty it?
Whatever happened to shooting someone in the leg, say once or twice?
Hindsight is 20/20, and if I had been there out of fear I might have shot him 10 times, but I am not trained to use lethal force.
I suspect this guy was suffering from some type of mental disorder and he probably presented a "clear and present danger," but does this merit 9 shots?
Is the new norm that when you pull a gun you empty it?
2
Why did the arriving officer rushed to shoot before the other officers who were closer both to the scene and altercation did?
What's up with him?!
What's up with him?!
1
Fast response. Appropriate response.
Proof positive that New York's Finest are the best cops in the world.
Proof positive that New York's Finest are the best cops in the world.
4
C'mon--three on one--and they cannot contain him--One shot would have worked to the hand holding the knife. If we cannot compose and Think in a crisis moment--maybe we shouldn't be in a crisis driven job.
1
Nine rounds? Mentally ill people need compassion, not swarming, shooting cops.
1
what about a batman type net or pepper spray or taser or rubber bullets or a knock out dart? why nine bullets?
2
“As the suspect got back on his feet he displayed an 8-inch knife and approached the officer and two other officers who were coming to his assistance,” Chief O’Neill said.
___
THAT is NOT an 8" blade pictured, maybe in total length. The NYC 'Gravity Knife' laws need to be blunted A LOT as it is having a disparate impact on the Black and Hispanic communities, esp. http://www.businessinsider.com/new-york-gravity-knife-law-could-be-amend...
___
THAT is NOT an 8" blade pictured, maybe in total length. The NYC 'Gravity Knife' laws need to be blunted A LOT as it is having a disparate impact on the Black and Hispanic communities, esp. http://www.businessinsider.com/new-york-gravity-knife-law-could-be-amend...
2
This just in: Trump apparently has claimed this shooting was terrorism. Further, he states that if he had been the shooter, he would get away with it and people would still elect him in the hugest landslide ever.
1
In no way should this shooting be considered justified. This man should not have died.
We need to take guns away from the cops. Three police, each wielding a baton could have easily subdued this man. It would have been less risky for the bystanders, the victim, and the police.
We need to take guns away from the cops. Three police, each wielding a baton could have easily subdued this man. It would have been less risky for the bystanders, the victim, and the police.
1
why do they shoot to kill instead of shooting him in the wrist or arm? In other cases why do they shoot so many times. I'm almost 90 I don't remember The police doing this in the past.
1
Next day quarterbacking is easy but it does seem that in some precincts a greater is use of less than lethal methods is greatly need. This a situation that would have been much better handled with a Taser, rather than firing 10 shots in an area full of bystanders. Imagine the uproar if that slightly wounded bystander had been shot in the head and had been a casualty herself.
Of course, if he had been tased, someone would have been complaining about that too......
BTW Id like to point out a different policing story, While in Rome some years ago, the was a man in the Roman senate ruins standing on a "soapbox" shirtless, while reading a manifesto, in his hand was a butcher's knife and while he read his monologue he would punctuate his audition by slashing himself. He was surrounded by Carabinieri at a short distance which kept the onlookers at bay. Although armed with submachine guns none were pointing them at the man or making a fuss, they were simply waiting him out which after a few hours he did, end of story.
Of course, if he had been tased, someone would have been complaining about that too......
BTW Id like to point out a different policing story, While in Rome some years ago, the was a man in the Roman senate ruins standing on a "soapbox" shirtless, while reading a manifesto, in his hand was a butcher's knife and while he read his monologue he would punctuate his audition by slashing himself. He was surrounded by Carabinieri at a short distance which kept the onlookers at bay. Although armed with submachine guns none were pointing them at the man or making a fuss, they were simply waiting him out which after a few hours he did, end of story.
1
I want to give the police the benefit of the doubt. But I'm not as naive as I used to be about the "facts"- especially when given by the police to justify a fatal shooting.
2
To all the readers lamenting about why the police didn't shoot at the suspect's legs or feet/shoot to wound, I would highly encourage you to do some research into shootings and their outcomes in court. When a situation warrants "deadly force", as the name implies, it is exactly that; there is no such thing as "wounding force" or "shoot extremities to potentially stop or stall attacker". While I respect my brothers and sisters in blue, I would wager most of you who think shooting an extremity to wound a would-be attacker have never used a firearm before, let alone in a highly stressful situation. A paper target does not move; human movement is dynamic. Most departments lack funding to do little more than semi-annual firearms qualification/training so the fact that these officers hit their target in a tense situation is commendable. Looking past the misguided belief that shooting to wound would be a better option, Mr. Conrad may have been judged in the wrong for pulling the knife in a criminal court however if he were maimed/disabled then he would be able to sue in civil court (even from prison) that the police had violated his civil liberties and most likely win if it could be proven that the police shot him with the intent to wound/disable. Sadly, most of you reading this will not be able to understand that with a poor decision of pulling a weapon on police and ignoring verbal commands and visual cues of guns drawn and pointed, this man sealed his fate on the street.
2
What sort of police are we hiring that can only shoot someone to death? There are many ways to render someone unable to harm themselves or others, such as tasers, non-lethal shooting, pepper spray, etc. Are our police just chicken? Or on a shooting spree? Outrageous.
2
The mentally unstable homeless are ticking time bombs waiting to explode. Of course those in favor of cutting social programs are willing to tolerate the loss of life deemed by them to not to be of any intrinsic value.
3
Let's withhold judgment -- there should be an investigation, as hopefully there will always be when someone dies.
I'm just glad Donald Trump hadn't made it easy for a disturbed individual to walk around the city with a gun.
I'm just glad Donald Trump hadn't made it easy for a disturbed individual to walk around the city with a gun.
1
News flash: there are already some 34,000 disturbed individuals, with guns, walking and driving around in New York City. They have badges, too, and are colloquially called cops. Have you ever had the chance to overhear them talk, when they think they're alone?
1
If anti police fanatics have their way, get ready to meet and confront more knife wielding crazies on the street, and get ready to defend yourself with your bare hands.
9
Although it is easy to Monday morning quarterback these situations and it is certainly not my behind on the line, I would like to think that there were other options to eliminate the threat without eliminating the person. Is it foolish to think that a leg shot would have removed the threat? Seven shots is a summary judgement and feels like a step beyond prudent use of force by the police. I emphathize with the difficult job of being a police officer but for me to feel safe I need to believe that police are skilled professionals adept at handling life threatening situations. The heavy handed nature of this response suggests otherwise.
We shouldn’t expect our police to act like street gangs when handling a case that began when a mentally ill person became disruptive and escalated after the store employees removed the suspect, when the police arrived.
One pedestrian was hit but fortunately not seriously. Suppose that person or perhaps two more were killed?
We shouldn’t expect our police to act like street gangs when handling a case that began when a mentally ill person became disruptive and escalated when the police arrived.
One pedestrian was hit but fortunately not seriously. Suppose that person or perhaps two more were killed?
We shouldn’t expect our police to act like street gangs when handling a case that began when a mentally ill person became disruptive and escalated when the police arrived.
5
Like what? Let him stab someone? SUPOSE HE stabbed someone? Then what? More stabbing in the city lately. Great job DeBlasio.
2
The police always say the man with the knife lunged at them. There has to be a better protocol for dealing with deranged men with knives. Note that the man did not pull the knife on the civilians in the store, but only after he was tackled by a retired officer, not in uniform. If the knife comes out, why not draw the gun and step back. The report of a deranged person should produce a taser, someone with a long baton, but not seven shots. I am not the only person to see this. This bordered on a summary execution. The man who pulled the trigger seven times should not be carrying a gun and badge.
13
It's not supposed to be a duel or a fair fight. The cop is the one in the best position to decide how much force. We should be reluctant to second guess, especially if the cop has a good record.
2
Better idea...invite him in for a cup of coffee and gently explain that threatening people is a naughty thing to do. When he draws the knife, gently remind him that
his actions are inappropriate, Call his mommy and ask her to comfort him.
You mention "better protocol." Enlighten us on what that would be. And if you should happen to be in an incident of this sort, step in and solve the problem with calm and reason and then fault the police if you should happen to be injured or killed.
his actions are inappropriate, Call his mommy and ask her to comfort him.
You mention "better protocol." Enlighten us on what that would be. And if you should happen to be in an incident of this sort, step in and solve the problem with calm and reason and then fault the police if you should happen to be injured or killed.
2
"A retired state law enforcement officer in the store thought it best to find a police officer and flagged down one, who was on foot patrol."
It seems it was the UNIFORMED officer who grabbed him by the backpack, nit the "...retired officer, not in uniform."
It seems it was the UNIFORMED officer who grabbed him by the backpack, nit the "...retired officer, not in uniform."
People are dangerous! The police reacted appropriately. The Israeli police react appropriately as well when confronted with knife wielding terrorists.
The only way to prevent these situations is to offer more screening and treatment of mental health diseases.
The only way to prevent these situations is to offer more screening and treatment of mental health diseases.
5
Why couldn't they shoot him in the legs to stop his advance? Why is it necessary to shoot to kill?
9
Dear WestSider,
This question usually comes up, and police are generally forbidden to aim for someone's legs. The reasons are, a leg shot is far more likely to miss, and thus not only stop the attacker from potentially killing someone, but also be more likely to hit a bystander. Additionally, a leg shot is quite likely to kill someone anyway, if it severs the femoral artery, they're done for.
This question usually comes up, and police are generally forbidden to aim for someone's legs. The reasons are, a leg shot is far more likely to miss, and thus not only stop the attacker from potentially killing someone, but also be more likely to hit a bystander. Additionally, a leg shot is quite likely to kill someone anyway, if it severs the femoral artery, they're done for.
1
Primarily, legs are harder to hit and could result in more missed shots with resultant greater risk to bystanders (not to mention the person who is the object of the attacker). A torso is the biggest target, and so that is what one shoots for. These are cops, not Annie Oakley.
3
This is required for the safety of the officer and the bystanders. The cop will aim at the body, never the limbs. Much better chance of hitting the target, stopping the attack, and not harming a bystander with a stray bullet. They are shooting to stop the attacker, not shooting to kill.
1
So many rumors floating around the neighborhood and unanswered questions regarding this poor tortured man's death. I went into the Food Emporium last night after they finally reopened and was alarmed at the callous playing of background music: I entered to the strains of Billy Joel's "Only The Good Die Young." One would think the corporate office would have dictated protocol to be followed.
World Wide Plaza, located on Eighth Avenue between 49th and 50th Streets, houses one of the world's top law firms and so the area surveillance footage will be extensive. Let us wait until the evidence is in before jumping to conclusions, this sad event occurred in not only a business and tourist area but a thriving residential neighborhood with a community-conscious police precinct and fire station: our beloved little house suffered the most losses of any fire unit on September 11. So much the sadder for Food Emporium's apathy.
Slightly off topic: How is it that you can be refused the grocery store purchase of a beer when obviously well above the age of 21 (in this instance 49 years of age) if you do not present identification? A beer, mind you, that will likely be consumed within the confines of your home, yet a 49 year old is not "carded" accordingly in a bar?
World Wide Plaza, located on Eighth Avenue between 49th and 50th Streets, houses one of the world's top law firms and so the area surveillance footage will be extensive. Let us wait until the evidence is in before jumping to conclusions, this sad event occurred in not only a business and tourist area but a thriving residential neighborhood with a community-conscious police precinct and fire station: our beloved little house suffered the most losses of any fire unit on September 11. So much the sadder for Food Emporium's apathy.
Slightly off topic: How is it that you can be refused the grocery store purchase of a beer when obviously well above the age of 21 (in this instance 49 years of age) if you do not present identification? A beer, mind you, that will likely be consumed within the confines of your home, yet a 49 year old is not "carded" accordingly in a bar?
5
One detail I think is worth noting is that the knife wielded by the man, while perhaps measuring 8 inches open, likely only has a 3-3.5 inch blade. I think it's misleading to call such a thing an "8 inch knife," whether it's the New York Times or the NYPD that's noting it as such. I think when most people picture an 8 inch knife, they likely picture 8 inches of blade. This makes the situation seem far more dire than it was in reality -- not that a 3.5 inch knife couldn't still do damage, but it seems like less than all the facts to call it an 8 inch knife.
Stay safe out there, people.
Stay safe out there, people.
13
So you have no problem getting stabbed with a 5 inch blade?
2
I find this so deeply disturbing on so many levels! Aren't the police trained to safely restrain an obviously drunk man holding a small knife? How many more incidents of policeman murdering citizens do we need to have before we do something about it? Just because you call yourself a "law-enforcement officer" doesn't give you the right to shoot your gun before trying all other methods first! How about using a spray, or tasers, or just tackling the man - how hard can it be, he was drunk!! My husband has friends who know this man - he was actually an electrician and stagehand on Broadway, who was drunk at the time. He was also an excellent writer. He probably had some problems with alcohol addiction and going through some hard times. Does that mean that he deserved to die for it? Do you know how many times I see crazy homeless people ALMOST EVERY DAY on the subway train in NYC? Some of them curse at people, some curse at unknown people and through around baby strollers in the subway car (!!), some expose themselves, I can go on and on! But this man? He only trying to get beer for crying out loud! How does that translate to being such a threat that he deserved to die??? It is beyond me how it was "agreed that shooting was justified". People, wake up!! We need to help those in need, not murder them! Police is completely out of control, they do whatever the hell they want and ALWAYS get away with it! Beware, they may turn against YOU next time you are going through some hard times.
13
NINE shots was necessary? Did the officers at least keep their eyes open, or they were just pulling their triggers as fast as they could without regard to what or who they were actually shooting at.
It was probably appropriate to use their guns, but this situation still seems to show that officers are simply not well trained in how to use their firearms, if not when to use them. Officers don't seem to shoot to gain control of a situation anymore, once they pull out their guns, it's to kill someone.
It was probably appropriate to use their guns, but this situation still seems to show that officers are simply not well trained in how to use their firearms, if not when to use them. Officers don't seem to shoot to gain control of a situation anymore, once they pull out their guns, it's to kill someone.
12
Only on TV does one or two shots stop anyone, much less a crazed nut.
2
To satiate the Texas stereotype: Its well known here bringing a knife to a gun fight earns a toe tag.
6
If midtown is so disturbed by this incident, then we need to pay for infrastructure that will limit these incidences. Instead of ignoring anothers' plight in our fancy shoes and later look on in shock and horror when the bubble finally bursts.
Dealing with mental disorders this advanced should not fall on the shoulders of law enforcement, because they are apparently only trained to administer one type of treatment.
Dealing with mental disorders this advanced should not fall on the shoulders of law enforcement, because they are apparently only trained to administer one type of treatment.
7
it is too close to it could have been me. I have lost my temper with cops - a mounted cop chasing dog-walkers for having dogs off the leash drew his gun on me..
All guns should be taken from cops - lets go with the british system. If cops don't have guns, that is the start of a peaceful society.
how confusing is that??
at my work place we are being trained in an 'active shooter situation' and all the guys want our guards to have guns, and to be able to bring guns themselves. WRONG!! More people will be killed by those guns than we will experience an 'active shooter situation'..!! DUH!!
Once again, a society go ing down the WRONG path!!!
All guns should be taken from cops - lets go with the british system. If cops don't have guns, that is the start of a peaceful society.
how confusing is that??
at my work place we are being trained in an 'active shooter situation' and all the guys want our guards to have guns, and to be able to bring guns themselves. WRONG!! More people will be killed by those guns than we will experience an 'active shooter situation'..!! DUH!!
Once again, a society go ing down the WRONG path!!!
9
Dude, a cop is not going to shoot you because you irritated him by back talking. He may bark at you to get you to shut up and start following orders. That's their training. Don't take it personally or be overly fearful.
2
Exactly what the police should have done.
6
Was that really an 8" knife? Or was it a 3½" knife with a 4½" handle? Is The Times buying into the police's mischaracterization of the implement shown in the photo?
The American Knife and Tool Institute's protocol for measuring knives: "Where a statute, regulation or ordinance refers to knife blade length, the measurement shall be the straight line extending from the tip of the blade to the forward-most aspect of the hilt or handle."
See < http://www.akti.org/resources/akti-protocol-for-measuring-knife-blade-le... >
From the photo accompanying this article, it's clear that the length of the blade is less than half of the entire length of the implement. And it's also clear, from reading the article, that the deceased never "displayed" the knife until AFTER he was knocked to the ground by an officer.
What legitimate reason did the officer have for his initial "engagement" of the deceased? Why did the initial "engagement" have to be physical instead of verbal? Being unkempt is not a crime. Wanting a beer in the mid-morning is not a crime. Being mentally disturbed is not a crime. Mumbling belligerently to others is not a crime.
"Whatsoever shall ye do to the least of my brethren, so also shall ye do unto me."
The American Knife and Tool Institute's protocol for measuring knives: "Where a statute, regulation or ordinance refers to knife blade length, the measurement shall be the straight line extending from the tip of the blade to the forward-most aspect of the hilt or handle."
See < http://www.akti.org/resources/akti-protocol-for-measuring-knife-blade-le... >
From the photo accompanying this article, it's clear that the length of the blade is less than half of the entire length of the implement. And it's also clear, from reading the article, that the deceased never "displayed" the knife until AFTER he was knocked to the ground by an officer.
What legitimate reason did the officer have for his initial "engagement" of the deceased? Why did the initial "engagement" have to be physical instead of verbal? Being unkempt is not a crime. Wanting a beer in the mid-morning is not a crime. Being mentally disturbed is not a crime. Mumbling belligerently to others is not a crime.
"Whatsoever shall ye do to the least of my brethren, so also shall ye do unto me."
12
I support the police at every opportunity, and thankfully an officer was there to deal with this man so the rest of the citizens wouldn't have to come into harms way. The knife is not an 8" knife though, it looks to be a Spyderco Police Model that has a 4" blade.
3
Manhattanites, more than most people, are super-smart, ultra-sensitive, open-minded types who will almost always opine in favor of a victim against any form of authority, especially law enforcement. All their comments here appear consistent with that. But they need to remind themselves that Times Square is today one of the world's biggest - and softest -- targets for terrorists. NYPD is operating in very, very difficult environment. If the unfortunate Mr. Conrad had acted out his dangerous behavior in some other location, there's a chance the episode would've ended differently.
4
That knife blade is only 3 and a half inches long, I have one very similar.
8
And, so?
4
And so, blatant mischaracterization by the police, to self-justify their excessive force. Another word for mischaracterization is lying. This instance gives significant credence to those who believe the police are inherently incapable of reporting the truth.
2
Can I use it to stab you? Apparently it's harmless. Not that it couldn't easily cut your throat or artery.
2
Yeah some maniac gets himself killed by being an absolute idiot, and all the commenters blame the police. In my opinion from the information I know so far, dude deserved to get shot. I don't want to sound too horrible, but why is this newsworthy? In the time it took me to write this comment I bet 20 people around the world have been shot to death that didn't deserve it. However, you guys are publishing a full article on how one idiot who deserved to die actually did? And don't tell me that brandishing a knife at another human being isn't grounds for being killed, because it is. If someone threatens me with a knife, I would not hesitate to kill them with my revolver.
22
Amen, Sister!
10
You don't get to decide he "deserved to die". Did he commit a heinous crime? No. Did he assault anybody? No. Did he terrify or threaten to kill anybody? No. Was he jumped by a cop and yanked to the ground? Yes. Did he pull out his 3 inch folding knife (knives are measured by their blade, not the length of the blade and the handle combined) to defend himself? Maybe. Or did he whip out his knife in a murderous rage, hell-bent on killing a cop? Maybe. We'll never know. That's what trials are for. Was he mentally unsound? Most likely. Are there ways to subdue a knife wielding maniac without killing him? Yes.
40
David,
Be very careful, since you were not there, about what exactly happened.
The first policeman who confronted him did not pull out his gun when he
first confronted him. The man pulled out his knife and stabbed the officer...
Be very careful, since you were not there, about what exactly happened.
The first policeman who confronted him did not pull out his gun when he
first confronted him. The man pulled out his knife and stabbed the officer...
6
My condolences to the innocent bystander - I hope she recovers quickly and with little more than a scar.
My cheers to the police who killed an armed, belligerent, aggressive assailant. Congratulations for doing your job!
My cheers to the police who killed an armed, belligerent, aggressive assailant. Congratulations for doing your job!
16
My first thought is people shouldn't lunge at police officers with knives, very little sympathy here. Now it's going to be arms across America to hang this poor police officer for protecting one of his own.
15
Disturbed Lives Matter.
For different reasons, both the left and the right supported the closure facilities for the mentally ill. (Not that all these facilities were working right.) Now the defaults are: let them live on the street, put them in prison, or kill them.
For different reasons, both the left and the right supported the closure facilities for the mentally ill. (Not that all these facilities were working right.) Now the defaults are: let them live on the street, put them in prison, or kill them.
14
i don't have any problems or issues with what the officers did. my sympathies go out to them for having to deal with this type of person and situation every day. there's a new alternative: it's a "cover", "cap" that, driven by the bullet from the gun turns a lethal bullet into a knock down, non penetrating slug that might be applicable as another form of non-lethal force along with tasers and sprays.
5
Having a knife doesn't make it a "justified" killing, particularly when the officer who shot him was just arriving on the scene and fired 7 shots at him. Obviously I wasn't there, nor have I seen video, but I don't think killing him is a justifiable response unless the man placed one of the officers, or a bystander, in immediate danger. As previous commenters have pointed out, the police have other tools at their disposal to subdue individuals without firing 9 rounds at them.
10
Lunging at his does exactly that.
New York City has seen a 20 percent increase in stabbings this year compared with last, and police say they don’t understand why it’s happening or what to do about it.
While most of the attacks are part of domestic disputes in homes, random assaults without apparent motives are on the rise. As of March 13, police recorded 809 incidents, up from 673 last year. So far there have been 20 attacks in the subways -- nine more than last year -- including a fatal encounter Wednesday in a Harlem station.
New York City has seen a 20 percent increase in stabbings this year compared with last, and police say they don’t understand why it’s happening or what to do about it.
While most of the attacks are part of domestic disputes in homes, random assaults without apparent motives are on the rise. As of March 13, police recorded 809 incidents, up from 673 last year. So far there have been 20 attacks in the subways -- nine more than last year -- including a fatal encounter Wednesday in a Harlem station.
2
Really?? What? A taser that is a one shot item that has a known failure rate when used against a disturbed attacker.
2
The Honolulu Police Department motto is to Serve and Protect with Aloha. Their mission is to keep the peace and help people with their problems.
As someone who lived there for more than four years, my experience is that they keep to their motto and mission. They treat people with respect and as such, they usually get respect in return. This leads to much less violence and greater community support for the police.
We need to reverse the militarization of the police that has occurred on the mainland.
As someone who lived there for more than four years, my experience is that they keep to their motto and mission. They treat people with respect and as such, they usually get respect in return. This leads to much less violence and greater community support for the police.
We need to reverse the militarization of the police that has occurred on the mainland.
6
I think you need a little more "experience" in Hawaii. Ask yourself, why is Hawaii the ONLY state in our union that does not release crime data? In Hawaii, if it doesn't go through the courts, it didn't happen. Hawaii has some damn good cops, but there's some stinkers there too. One notable difference, (possibly in an officers disposition),you can't carry a gun in Hawaii.
1
Really? They sing while someone attacks them with a knife?? Doubt that.
2
What a shameless attempt by the NYPD to manipulate public opinion. The pictured knife appears to be a Spyderco Endura. The overall length of this knife is a whopping 8 and 3/4 inches. The blade, however, is only 3 and 3/4 inches. Yes, the handle on that knife is about 5 inches long. So now we are going to be counting handle length when describing knives? DA Cyrus Vance has already twisted the term "gravity knife" to prosecute many innocents with utility folding knives. Expect to see people getting arrested or even shot for possessing little Boy Scout knives with 2 inch blades next. The police will make you open your knife and if the handle makes the overall length exceed 4 ihches, you will be charged with possession of a deadly weapon.
6
If someone buried that 3 and 3/4 inch knife in your throat I don't think you would consider it small. .
16
The base fact was, he had a blade and he charged a cop with it. He had the intention of doing serious harm to him, regardless of how long the blade was.
7
Agree.
1
It seems the officer who first fired shots did so while just rushing onto the scene, when there were already three officers dealing with the encounter. This is not the first time an officer acts hastily on arrival rather than deferring to those more familiar with the situation. While it is essential for the police to help and protect each other, it might have avoided a death and injured bystander to ask what help was needed before shooting.
4
Lets all feel bad for the poor knife wielding maniac who frightened shoppers and store clerks and tried to stab a police officer to death.
Lets ridicule and maybe even press charges against the cops who were trying to keep the public safe by putting themselves in front of someone we would have all ran away from.
Lets hear what a great guy this attempted killer was, lets see his high school graduation picture, hear how he always went to church and was such an upstanding member of the community.
Then lets talk about his descent into mental illness- how the case manager and city, and whole society failed him.
Or- or- let's have the proper conversation. People have the right to work and shop without being threatened. If a person is mentally ill, his family is supposed to advocate for him. If you threaten the life of a police officer-or anybody else- you put your own life at risk.
Lets ridicule and maybe even press charges against the cops who were trying to keep the public safe by putting themselves in front of someone we would have all ran away from.
Lets hear what a great guy this attempted killer was, lets see his high school graduation picture, hear how he always went to church and was such an upstanding member of the community.
Then lets talk about his descent into mental illness- how the case manager and city, and whole society failed him.
Or- or- let's have the proper conversation. People have the right to work and shop without being threatened. If a person is mentally ill, his family is supposed to advocate for him. If you threaten the life of a police officer-or anybody else- you put your own life at risk.
18
I'm sorry...I guess I missed the part of the story where he was waving a knife at shoppers?
4
Justifiable shooting. Unfortunately, Mr. Conrad did not receive the help he needed from his family or social services. This incident is a re flexion of the world we live; people are cast aside by their families and the social service /mental health agencies. The result of this is what occurred on 8th Ave. yesterday.
7
“It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; ... who does actually strive to do the deeds; ...”
― Theodore Roosevelt
To critics of the police officers' actions, I ask one question; "How much risk of serious injury or death are YOU willing to take to avoid killing the individuals posing the threat?"
For me, the answer is absolutely NONE, and I don't expect law enforcement officers to take such risk on my behalf either. Well done officers.
― Theodore Roosevelt
To critics of the police officers' actions, I ask one question; "How much risk of serious injury or death are YOU willing to take to avoid killing the individuals posing the threat?"
For me, the answer is absolutely NONE, and I don't expect law enforcement officers to take such risk on my behalf either. Well done officers.
13
Instead of caring for the mentally ill, we shoot them dead.
6
A traumatic experience for all involved, including the officers and witnesses, no doubt. I would however like to point out that the standard for knife length is the blade length - there is no way this fairly common pocket knife has an 8 inch blade. Perhaps this is beside the point, being certainly a potentially lethal weapon, but accuracy should count for something.
2
This man was an obvious danger to the public, and the police acted properly to protect the public from the threat. The police understand what an assailant can accomplish with that knife. How would you feel if the innocent cop was stabbed to death by this man, instead of just wounded on the hand? The assailant was likely failed by the system long ago, but to the police, I think a simple "thank you" might be in order this time.
9
A 49-year old guy, obviously disturbed, angry, etc. goes to pay for his beer and the cashier "asked to see some ID." Why? The clerk was in a position of power and used it to make a bad situation worse. Brilliant, just brilliant.
7
Were we ever the kind humanists we think ourselves? Money scarce, close those facilities that housed or healed the most vulnerable. Train a force to
enforce the law, and use the quickie way if needed to subdue the dissent, the
deranged, the poor, the outllier.
We could really take a lesson from the less violent countries of the West. I speak of Norway, Sweden, Denmark, etc., and that goes for medical systems, education systems and their approach to crime and punishment. We're so
behind it all, but maybe we're getting what we deserve, in more ways than one.
enforce the law, and use the quickie way if needed to subdue the dissent, the
deranged, the poor, the outllier.
We could really take a lesson from the less violent countries of the West. I speak of Norway, Sweden, Denmark, etc., and that goes for medical systems, education systems and their approach to crime and punishment. We're so
behind it all, but maybe we're getting what we deserve, in more ways than one.
3
Why didn't the cops just smile at the guy, sit down and "talk about it", maybe buy him a cup of kaufee? Grab him by the shoulder reassuringly? What happened to those days?
4
I love how "employees of the Food Emporium forced the man from the premises," presumably without the use of guns, and definitely without shooting him dead, and the NYPD's only course of action was to pump nine rounds of lead into the guy. Great job guys!
8
I just wonder how some of the people writing in would feel if a deranged, angry man with an 8 inch knife came at them.
Would it be ok if the officer shot him before a stabbing?
I can honestly say, hell yeah!
Would it be ok if the officer shot him before a stabbing?
I can honestly say, hell yeah!
7
3 inch knife, 5 inch handle. It's a basic pocket knife that a lot of people have.
2
I think that the NYPD is a real danger for civilians. A woman was grazed by a bullet, "The police described her injuries as minor" : sure, but what if the bullet had gone an inch to the left or to the right ? There's nothing "minor" here, to the contrary, this is a MAJOR problem.
And why do you need 7 shots against a guy with a knife ? This is not incapacitating the suspect, this is not even killing, this is spraying lead in a very irresponsible manner.
When an NYPD officer draws out a gun, duck to the ground!
And why do you need 7 shots against a guy with a knife ? This is not incapacitating the suspect, this is not even killing, this is spraying lead in a very irresponsible manner.
When an NYPD officer draws out a gun, duck to the ground!
8
If officers of the NYPD are going to carry guns, they need to go through more training, and their guns need to be set up differently. As it stands now, the trigger pull on a properly specced NYPD pistol is so heavy that it would be nearly impossible for someone to fire repeated, accurate shots from the weapon. Coupled with the simplicity of the NYPD gun exam, I'd say you have 100% the right instinct in getting out of the way when the NYPD starts firing.
4
That's not an 8 inch knife.... The measurement is the length of the blade, and that's a pocket knife. It's a terrible weapon, unless you're a special operator, or rob unsuspecting people. Was this worth opening fire on a busy street?
Then again, probably none of us would be thinking about de-escalation if we had a gun and someone were threatening our life in close range...
Then again, probably none of us would be thinking about de-escalation if we had a gun and someone were threatening our life in close range...
5
Totally. The NYPD's statement called it an 8 inch knife, and every news outlet ran that without even looking at the picture. Not a weapon. It's a pocket knife.
4
I'm sure the posters critical of the police response in this matter have walked a beat and completely understand the fine points of police work. I'm also positive the police have never thought of the idea of "shooting to disable" so thanks for letting them know.
6
So if we haven't been cops, we shouldn't criticize them? That's a brilliant way to cede power to those tasked to serve the people. But you're right -- the police haven't thought about "shooting to disable", not for a very long time, because "shoot to kill" is the order of the day in police training across the country.
3
When the right wing crazies want to point to evidence "liberal media bias" , the NYT's coverage of this incident will be exhibit 1. And while I usually laugh at such rantings, they'd be right.
Since yesterday, the headlines have been all about the police shooting. As if it was the police that went on an unprovoked rampage, instead of a lunatic with a knife (and he managed that before he got that beer . . ..)
The fact that the shooting is by all accounts justified is grudgingly revealed in the middle of the article, and the disappointment at this fact pervades this article and yesterday's.
Wouldn't a better headline and focus be: knife wielder threatens strangers, is shot by police?
If a writing teacher wanted to illustrate how to French a story with a viewpoint subliminally, this would be it.
Since yesterday, the headlines have been all about the police shooting. As if it was the police that went on an unprovoked rampage, instead of a lunatic with a knife (and he managed that before he got that beer . . ..)
The fact that the shooting is by all accounts justified is grudgingly revealed in the middle of the article, and the disappointment at this fact pervades this article and yesterday's.
Wouldn't a better headline and focus be: knife wielder threatens strangers, is shot by police?
If a writing teacher wanted to illustrate how to French a story with a viewpoint subliminally, this would be it.
6
"French a story" is auto correct. . . i don't know what it means, but I kind of like it.
Is the knife just a sample photo? It does not appear to have an 8" blade. That would make the handle 10" or so.
Looks like a typical folding pocket knife with a 3-4" blade.
Looks like a typical folding pocket knife with a 3-4" blade.
2
Many of these comments suggest that a knife is a more or less harmless weapon - ignoring crime statistics that show five times more homicides are committed with knives than with rifles or shotguns.
Look at that knife! It's not for putting butter on a baguette. It is a hunting knife like a Navy Seal would carry.
Here you have a man in a densely packed grocery store threatening people for no reason and pulling this military weapon on a cop on a crowded street corner a block from Times Square. He was told to drop it. He didn't.
Would people rather that he slit a couple of throats before the cops took him out?
Maybe the dead guy was mentally ill and maybe society should have done a better job helping him cope with it. Or maybe he didn't take his medication and didn't show up for his therapy. But either way, the cops saw an angry man with a very dangerous weapon, gave him a chance to drop it, and solved the problem without any innocent citizens getting killed.
That is what they're supposed to do.
Look at that knife! It's not for putting butter on a baguette. It is a hunting knife like a Navy Seal would carry.
Here you have a man in a densely packed grocery store threatening people for no reason and pulling this military weapon on a cop on a crowded street corner a block from Times Square. He was told to drop it. He didn't.
Would people rather that he slit a couple of throats before the cops took him out?
Maybe the dead guy was mentally ill and maybe society should have done a better job helping him cope with it. Or maybe he didn't take his medication and didn't show up for his therapy. But either way, the cops saw an angry man with a very dangerous weapon, gave him a chance to drop it, and solved the problem without any innocent citizens getting killed.
That is what they're supposed to do.
11
It's not a hunting knife. It's a pocket knife that a lot of guys who are riggers and stagehands carry as a basic tool of the trade. Conrad was a stagehand.
3
I wonder what all of the people writing negative comments would be saying if the police had not shot to kill and this deranged person had turned and stabbed a bystander to death.
Police put their lives on the line to protect citizens. Decisions have to be made in a split second. While there have been isolated incidents of inappropriate police action, the overwhelming amount of work they do is for the common good. The second-guessing and negativity expressed in these comments, as well as in protests around the country, is sad and inappropriate – and risks making us less safe if police back away from potential dangerous confrontations for fear that they will be prosecuted for excessive use of force.
Police put their lives on the line to protect citizens. Decisions have to be made in a split second. While there have been isolated incidents of inappropriate police action, the overwhelming amount of work they do is for the common good. The second-guessing and negativity expressed in these comments, as well as in protests around the country, is sad and inappropriate – and risks making us less safe if police back away from potential dangerous confrontations for fear that they will be prosecuted for excessive use of force.
9
I really think it's unfair to second guess these things. They happen is seconds and then people spend countless hours analyzing every move. People have jumped to the conclusion this man had mental problems, maybe he was just under the influence of beer. If a person came after me with a knife and I had a gun I would shoot first and ask questions later.
5
Shooting may be justified but why not shoot in the legs - seven rounds is quite an over-reaction - esp. to a knife
4
Let's demilitarize the police. Take away their guns and give them tazers or batons. Teach them how to fight - hand to hand. Teach them how to talk to people, to deescalate situation, to negotiate. Put them on a training and nutrition regime so they have some physical strength. Install some courage in them so that their first response is not to shoot to kill.
8
The cold, hard truth here is that a taser would have been sufficient to neutralize the threat; shooting this guy 9 times was overkill, to say the least. He had to be stopped, but why not with a taser? Notwithstanding arguments about the urgency of the moment, etc., tasering is the valid alternative to lethal force in a situation like this. If the guy pulled a gun, that would have been something else, but he didn't...he pulled a knife.
4
@stonecutter. You should watch several episodes of the reality TV series COPS. You will see people who have been tasered--especially those under the influence of unbalanced brain chemistry and/or mind altering substances--behave as violently or worse than they had been prior to being hit. Most unfortunately, a bullet is your best bet for an instantaneous take down and thus putting a stop to further or potential injury to police officers and bystanders. Also, knives can be just as lethal as guns.
2
"a bullet is your best bet"....yeah, but 9 bullets? Emptying your weapon in rapid fire? I know tasers are not full-proof at stopping, but it could have been employed by one of the cops on the scene, and if the guy continued to come on, then shoot him right away...firing 9 times up front still seems too automatic to me....
1
I find it amazing how many people judge the police without either witnessing what happened or at least view a video tape. it is quite possible that the person with the knife was in close proximity to an officer or a danger civilians and the officers shot until the suspect stopped moving forward. I wonder how many of you would try to shoot at a leg if you were in danger of being stabbed.
5
Reporting the blade length as 8" is misleading. The knife is made by Spyderco and looks like their Endura pocket knife. The blade length is actually 3.80" long. The overall length of the knife when opened is over eight inches but that barely has the same emotional impact as reporting a man wielding an eight inch knife. Why did the police choose to misrepresent this to the public and why didn't the NYTs pick up on it?
3
Judging from the comments it sounds like the people of NYC should try to calm or subdue agitated people themselves rather calling the police, and if they get injured or killed in the process it will have been for some greater good.
8
Sometimes you have to be willing to die to help your fellow citizens. If a group had gathered to help this man, he would still be alive. But no! Fear of the mentally ill led him to be shot down in the street. Shame. Shame.
1
Posted from the peace and calm of Bryn Mawr! Would you feel the same dealing with mentally ill people daily on the streets of New York or any city for that matter?
1
I wonder why somebody has not yet invented a perhaps metallic net, like the one the Roman gladiators used, to capture people with knives. I wish I were an inventor. Such a device would save a lot of lives.
4
What happened to just shooting someone in the leg or arm? I guess not, just kill 'em!
5
From the tone of many of the posts, it is obvious that the authors have never been violently assaulted by a mentally deranged person in broad daylight on a crowded street. I have; at 5 p.m. on a Friday in front of City Hall. I was fortunate, he was armed only with his fists--which did more than enough damage. Several people immediately came to my aid; I was fortunate again. There were policemen in the immediate vicinity who captured and restrained him; even more fortunate. As he was being taken away, he was screaming "why are you taking me?; it was her fault; she was in my way." Several weeks later I saw my assailant in City Hall Park; I immediately left . Months later, my assailant pushes a woman to her death in front of a subway train; "she was in my way" he said.
77
That is truly horrible. I'm sorry for what happened to you and to his victim.
2
Wrong. What most of us are questioning are the moments leading up to the shooting. Unless the facts as presented here are wrong, it says the officer tried to 'engage' the man by 'grabbing him by his backpack'. That right there was a gross error in judgement. That is not how one tries to pacify an agitated mentally-ill person, especially when there was no indication at that point in time that this person had a weapon, or that they were threatening to physically harm anyone.
3
If the knife pictured is of the actual one wielded by the decedent, some fact-finding is in order. It is a Spyderco brand folding pocket knife (notice the pocket clip), costing approximately $65-90, depending on style (rather expensive, not just some generic "kitchen knife"). It is also approximately eight inches in TOTAL length, which would leave a blade length of about 3.75 inches. Still potentially deadly, but a different picture is painted of both assailant and weapon.
2
I'm the lone dissenter I guess. It's always easy for us to second guess a violent attack, and sure, it is sad that a human being's life was lost. What makes all of the commenters experts in mental health? Was his diagnosed? If so, it's a shame we don't have a system where people are treated. But let's not forget, the very people who criticize the police for any enforcement, are the same ones who would protest that no one should be forced to take meds for mental illness. Just because we have a system doesn't mean patients would seek help or could be forced. That said, as harsh as this seems, the world is better without knife wielding people like this. I've seen this more often under de Blasio than any previous Mayor. No rules on begging, sleeping on trains, urinating in full public view, harassing people. It's a lawless city thanks to a social engineering/racial agenda. When the police order one to do something, they aren't kidding. Sorry a life was lost, but better he than an innocent person or a police officer.
9
Disheveled is an extremely relative term. The scenario inside the store does not include destruction of property, shoplifting or assault. I look forward to reading a report on what he was using swear words about and exactly how he was acting physically threatening. I'd also like to know where this retired officer is from who miraculously flagged down police, but mostly I'd like to know what exactly the deceased said to the officers before they killed him.
6
I support the police. I was not there but an unhinged man with a knife could do some damage to anyone in the area.
And what do we do with these people? I mean really? What do we do with them to keep them safe and innocent people safe? Lock them up in some facility where the care could very well be sketchy? Put them on drugs and make sure they take them? What do they do all day long to have satisfying lives? I'm not saying they shouldn't live but I am saying we have a huge problem with the mentally ill and there are no easy answers.
And what do we do with these people? I mean really? What do we do with them to keep them safe and innocent people safe? Lock them up in some facility where the care could very well be sketchy? Put them on drugs and make sure they take them? What do they do all day long to have satisfying lives? I'm not saying they shouldn't live but I am saying we have a huge problem with the mentally ill and there are no easy answers.
2
Police need to spend more time at target practice. 7 shots seem like a lot to bring down a person. Maybe 2 or 3 would be safer for the general public.
4
Yup, instant justice, all for it, on both sides. Who needs jury trials, defense muck-racking, charges of racism, fishing expeditions etc., ending inevitably with dismissal/acquittals, when the man lunges in plain sight, armed, with intent to kill? If anybody wonders why guns are a permanent fixture in America, this incident explains it all.
2
I'm amazed by all the comments on here saying that shooting a knife-wielding man was unjustified. For one thing, all the information in this article clearly indicates he was indeed a threat. The second thing is that a lot of people seem to think they understand what it's like to be a policeman confronting a disturbed person. I don't know what it's like either, but I am pretty sure it's not nearly as easy as it looks in the movies. Decisions are made in an instant and I doubt it's a simple task to quickly take aim at a particular body part. These are beat cops, not army snipers.
7
I've lived for 65 years and have slowly, through much direct personal experience as well as monitoring news articles such as this turned from respecting the police in America and giving them the benefit of the doubt to taking a much more skeptical and wary view of those who allegedly "serve and protect". I no longer believe in the "few bad apples" theory of police misconduct. No, it's a deeper and broader problem than that. There is a systemic problem in too many police departments of swash buckling and arrogant power tripping and just plain thuggery, and an all too familiar response of circling the wagons and protecting those "bad apples" through the notorious "thin blue line" that ruthlessly enforces a code of not testifying or calling out fellow officers for even the most egregious police misconduct or brutality. We need to look this problem square in the eye - policing in America is far too often out of control and unaccountable. Until we recognize that and deal directly with the problem, there will be more such deaths that could have been prevented by smarter, more creative and compassionate policing. RIP, Mr. Conrad. You deserved better.
3
What if this individual is a family member of a police officer at the scene? Will that officer be as quick to tackle, to shoot in a deadly manner? Or would that officer engage in negotiations with the perp, handle the situation in a different manner? I'd bet the farm that the second option would be tried first. Why so quick to shoot? And with dozens of bystanders around?
5
The guy was 46. Why did the clerk ask for his ID, further exacerbating an avoidable situation? Police, in crowded areas should use tasers, beanbag guns or some other non-lethal weapon. It is fortunate that the bystander was only grazed.
3
Commenters here are pulling theory's out of midair for their own agenda's. He's "obviously" mentally ill because he's agitated? The police have family and their children will see them tonight.
2
I really do not understand any of these comments.
What do any of you judging the police expect to anyone to do with a belligerent person who pulls a knife on you?
It's a serious question.
You judge the police so easily and so quickly.
And yet will not be intellectually honest about the kind of person they are dealing with and that person's actions.
Perhaps the man should have been in a mental health facility instead of on the street. Yes, that is a fair criticism.
But it is not a fair criticism to say that a belligerent person who pulls a knife on you is not a mortal threat.
What do any of you judging the police expect to anyone to do with a belligerent person who pulls a knife on you?
It's a serious question.
You judge the police so easily and so quickly.
And yet will not be intellectually honest about the kind of person they are dealing with and that person's actions.
Perhaps the man should have been in a mental health facility instead of on the street. Yes, that is a fair criticism.
But it is not a fair criticism to say that a belligerent person who pulls a knife on you is not a mortal threat.
7
"What do any of you judging the police expect to anyone to do with a belligerent person who pulls a knife on you?"
Literally anything else. Back away and wait for other officers to help contain him. Tase him. Wound him.
Shooting to kill isn't the only response to danger.
Literally anything else. Back away and wait for other officers to help contain him. Tase him. Wound him.
Shooting to kill isn't the only response to danger.
4
I am a little bit frustrated by some of the comments that are jumping to the conclusion that the police acted inappropriately. We should wait to see the precise facts and timeline of the incident (and hopefully video evidence). From the description, this easily could have been a rapid chain of events that didn't give the officers enough time to set up, evaluate the situation, and then select their weapon (i.e., tazer or gun). All the officers know is they're responding to a potentially violent person and when they arrived they saw him fighting a cop, holding a knife and, possible, moving toward a cop with the knife raised in a threatening manner.
I am the harshest critic of police brutality and the dehumanization of an entire class of people that has resulted from mass incarceration and the proliferation of home-run sentencing (all enabled by bloated police budgets and an industry with an interest in locking people up). But we can't rush to conclusions against police officers in every case; they have a difficult, challenging, and vital job that plays a fundamental role in our society.
Above all, we must be fair at all times.
On a practical note, you're trained to shoot center mass because shooting limbs is risky (finer target, which increases the potential harm to bystanders) and in an adrenaline-fueled situation you need to aim for the biggest target (i.e., center mass). It also is also the most likely target to stop an individual that is about to assault someone.
I am the harshest critic of police brutality and the dehumanization of an entire class of people that has resulted from mass incarceration and the proliferation of home-run sentencing (all enabled by bloated police budgets and an industry with an interest in locking people up). But we can't rush to conclusions against police officers in every case; they have a difficult, challenging, and vital job that plays a fundamental role in our society.
Above all, we must be fair at all times.
On a practical note, you're trained to shoot center mass because shooting limbs is risky (finer target, which increases the potential harm to bystanders) and in an adrenaline-fueled situation you need to aim for the biggest target (i.e., center mass). It also is also the most likely target to stop an individual that is about to assault someone.
37
I'm grateful for the work the NYPD does to keep us safe.
3
Re: the innocent bystander - "The police described her injuries as minor." Uh, except for the post-traumatic stress she may develop.
3
I don't understand why people are nervous about this. It wasn't this Gary Conrad doing the shooting'; it was the police and the police have pretty good aim it seems. So unless you're running around waving a knife, you should be okay (though I still don't understand how the Brits manage to generally restrain people with knives, while we have to shoot and kill them).
FYI, about 25 years ago I was walking down 8th Avenue returning from lunch, when I stopped for the light on the northwest corner of 8th and 50th, right near this location. As I stood there, people started ducking and shouting "he's got a gun." Then I heard shots and prayed the light wouldn't change so the car I was hiding behind couldn't move. In any event, it (a fight over a leather jacket or something like that) was over quickly, the intended victim was the only person shot, and there just happened to be an ambulance on the street that just pulled over and took care of him. I find that kind of random shooting by strangers far more concerning than the police shooting (at least insofar as my own safety is concerned, but still do question why the police have to shoot so many people).
FYI, about 25 years ago I was walking down 8th Avenue returning from lunch, when I stopped for the light on the northwest corner of 8th and 50th, right near this location. As I stood there, people started ducking and shouting "he's got a gun." Then I heard shots and prayed the light wouldn't change so the car I was hiding behind couldn't move. In any event, it (a fight over a leather jacket or something like that) was over quickly, the intended victim was the only person shot, and there just happened to be an ambulance on the street that just pulled over and took care of him. I find that kind of random shooting by strangers far more concerning than the police shooting (at least insofar as my own safety is concerned, but still do question why the police have to shoot so many people).
I think when most people read about a man with an 8-inch knife they picture a knife with an 8-inch blade — like a ka-bar or a bowie knife, knives whose primary function are as weapons. The knife pictured looks to be a standard folding knife with a 5 inch handle and a 3 inch blade — still dangerous but not primarily a weapon. I realize any folding knife is illegal in New York City, but I carry one of these while camping, cycling, and exploring. It’s a useful tool. Calling it an 8-inch knife lends the idea that the suspect was armed and looking for trouble when, according to the events as described here, he simply could have been startled by the officer grabbing his backpack and throwing him on the ground.
3
You have to wonder what those police-condemning posters would be writing if the guy had wielded a knife on them.
3
Well he'd only be pulling a knife on me if I were a cop yanking him to the ground. So I'd be wondering how fast I could get nine shots off and make my problems go away.
1
Nine rounds = hunting. Criminals with badges.
3
Another example of the mentally ill of America pushed to the corners of our society to finally be dealt with by a sudden dose of lethal force from an unsuspecting foot beat cop who is certainly not a trained mental health professional.
2
I'm tired of all the second guessing of the cops in this incident. If the man was 50 feet away and brandishing a knife, maybe the options for dealing with him would have been different But someone who comes at you from several steps away with a deadly weapon needs to be stopped for sure.
Maybe all the second-guessers would prefer a dead cop instead.
smh
Maybe all the second-guessers would prefer a dead cop instead.
smh
4
Thank you NYPD.
I'm sure some long lost "relatives" to this dangerous criminal will squirm out of the wood work to collect some tax-payer funded joy fund.
No. Absolutely not. No way. (deBlasio can hand over his salary for a year if he wants, I guess...)
Again. THANK YOU NYPD!!!! The real heroes!
I'm sure some long lost "relatives" to this dangerous criminal will squirm out of the wood work to collect some tax-payer funded joy fund.
No. Absolutely not. No way. (deBlasio can hand over his salary for a year if he wants, I guess...)
Again. THANK YOU NYPD!!!! The real heroes!
3
We'll have to wait for the video to come in, but, with an eight-inch knife, it's unfortunately plausible that the shooting here (unlike so many) was justified in the moment. The problem may have been the cop who escalated into physical contact in the first place. It seems that American police have little patience for any tactics besides direct confrontation. They need to be better trained in and more clearly mandated to use de-escalation. Still...a man harassing customers, armed with an eight-inch blade, and ready to yank it out during a physical confrontation...this was someone who was genuinely dangerous, even if only out of illness. The store employees are lucky he didn't use the knife when they threw him out of the store. Not a lot of good outcomes left when a person has reached that point.
22
See the photo. The whole knife might be 8 inches, but the blade is less than half that.
I agree with what you say. The shooting may have been necessary, but as you say, may not have gotten to that point had the cop not tried to 'engage' the man by grabbing at his backpack. (Anyone with a modicum of emotional intelligence knows that that is not the best way for an authority figure to try and calm down an agitated, mentally ill person...)
I also agree that... nowadays everyone (such as the store employees you mention) must be very cautious with whom they disagree or confront or eject from the premises. Even the most 'sane' person can suddenly and unexpectedly 'flip', and return back to the site hours later, with a gun.
I feel badly for the poor store employees, whose day was unexpectedly turned upside down. I'll bet they didn't imagine the outcome in a million years, nor did they want for that.
I also agree that... nowadays everyone (such as the store employees you mention) must be very cautious with whom they disagree or confront or eject from the premises. Even the most 'sane' person can suddenly and unexpectedly 'flip', and return back to the site hours later, with a gun.
I feel badly for the poor store employees, whose day was unexpectedly turned upside down. I'll bet they didn't imagine the outcome in a million years, nor did they want for that.
"The problem may have been the cop who escalated into physical contact in the first place" Is one to interpret that you are OK with deceased "threaten[ing] customers" while he shopped?
Although perhaps off topic, isn't it curious [Mr./Mrs/Ms. liberal] that “She asked to see some I.D.,” is not objectionable [like some other circumstances and scenarios]? Perhaps if cashier hadn't asked for the I.D. the problem wouldn't have the employees wouldn't have been compelled to force him out of the store.
Agree that mental health, weather clinical or chemical, is of paramount concern in our society, i.e. transcends racial and socio-economic spectrum. Prevention is obviously the preferred course of action, but asking/demanding that [admittedly ill-equipped, understaffed, and roundly vilified] public servants ensure positive outcome is what, in my opinion, exacerbates the problem. Just a though but perhaps if the very people charged with protecting [and serving] the public were once again allowed to do their job the confrontation wouldn't have happened?
But to each there own I guess; I'm of the mind set that one can't have your cake and eat it too.
BTW: before vilifying the police we all need check local laws/restrictions on what qualifies [mental] protective custody; out here in California they are damned if they do and - like there - damned if they don't.
Although perhaps off topic, isn't it curious [Mr./Mrs/Ms. liberal] that “She asked to see some I.D.,” is not objectionable [like some other circumstances and scenarios]? Perhaps if cashier hadn't asked for the I.D. the problem wouldn't have the employees wouldn't have been compelled to force him out of the store.
Agree that mental health, weather clinical or chemical, is of paramount concern in our society, i.e. transcends racial and socio-economic spectrum. Prevention is obviously the preferred course of action, but asking/demanding that [admittedly ill-equipped, understaffed, and roundly vilified] public servants ensure positive outcome is what, in my opinion, exacerbates the problem. Just a though but perhaps if the very people charged with protecting [and serving] the public were once again allowed to do their job the confrontation wouldn't have happened?
But to each there own I guess; I'm of the mind set that one can't have your cake and eat it too.
BTW: before vilifying the police we all need check local laws/restrictions on what qualifies [mental] protective custody; out here in California they are damned if they do and - like there - damned if they don't.
A justified shooting which may be a reflection of our failing mental health system, but these officers are not to blame for that.
Many of these comments reflect a misdirected notion that the police, put in the position of having to defend themselves against [potentially] mentally ill folks with knives, are somehow the culprits when they then mortally wound said person. This is misguided. If you are an officer in this situation, these events unfold in a manner of seconds. Regardless of outcome, the story will be over in a few heartbeats. And the officer, who does countless good deeds every single day, will be faced with the choice of defending his or her life against taking another's. There is no "shoot him in the leg!"; they are specifically trained to aim for center mass, and fire until the threat is eliminated. They followed their training, and I commend them for saving the lives of anyone this unfortunate man was threatening.
The fact is, if this man was mentally ill, he had nowhere else to go.
Many of these comments reflect a misdirected notion that the police, put in the position of having to defend themselves against [potentially] mentally ill folks with knives, are somehow the culprits when they then mortally wound said person. This is misguided. If you are an officer in this situation, these events unfold in a manner of seconds. Regardless of outcome, the story will be over in a few heartbeats. And the officer, who does countless good deeds every single day, will be faced with the choice of defending his or her life against taking another's. There is no "shoot him in the leg!"; they are specifically trained to aim for center mass, and fire until the threat is eliminated. They followed their training, and I commend them for saving the lives of anyone this unfortunate man was threatening.
The fact is, if this man was mentally ill, he had nowhere else to go.
4
When is the city going to start giving real firearms training to the cops? It's borderline insane how little they get, how low the quality is, and how little they have to do to keep their training current.
These officers are work in some of the most densely populated neighborhoods in the world, in a city filled with high tensions, multiple cultures, and mental illness. And they're handed guns, with less training than what a foot soldier gets.
It would make sense to me if most cops had no guns, and if the ones who had them got training similar what special operations soldiers get. They could then be expected to keep their cool, to have multiple strategies for de-escalating, multiple options besides using the gun, and if they finally had to use the stupid gun—they wouldn't miss.
Consider this: when the team that killed Osama Bin Laden infiltrated his heavily-guarded compound, they fired 16 rounds. Fewer than twice as many as it took to stop this guy who was probably just suffering a prescription malfunction. It's amazing only one bystander got shot.
These officers are work in some of the most densely populated neighborhoods in the world, in a city filled with high tensions, multiple cultures, and mental illness. And they're handed guns, with less training than what a foot soldier gets.
It would make sense to me if most cops had no guns, and if the ones who had them got training similar what special operations soldiers get. They could then be expected to keep their cool, to have multiple strategies for de-escalating, multiple options besides using the gun, and if they finally had to use the stupid gun—they wouldn't miss.
Consider this: when the team that killed Osama Bin Laden infiltrated his heavily-guarded compound, they fired 16 rounds. Fewer than twice as many as it took to stop this guy who was probably just suffering a prescription malfunction. It's amazing only one bystander got shot.
4
Besides the issue of whether the shooting was justified, I'd like to talk about what set this whole thing off. Sounds like something that has happened to me numerous times. Being asked for ID when buying beer. I tell the clerk that I am 63 years old and there is no way that I can be mistaken for underage. They often state it's the law. Actually it's not. It's only against the law to sell to someone underage. There is now law that says you have to show ID. I know, it's a small issue but it bugs me because the clerks aren't allowed to think for themselves. If they won't sell me the beer, I usually go buy it someplace where the employees are allowed to thing for themselves. This guys reaction was a little over the top but I think I understand his frustration. It's too bad it had to escalate the way that it did.
4
I agree, and evidently the guy was a regular at this place, so asking for his ID was even more provocative.
1
Thanks god for the police officers, if it wasn't for them, this disheveled man would kill an innocent person
3
Why didn't they shoot him in the leg to disable him? The cops panicked again.....
Bravo to the police, unbelievable the comments here..next time you see a crazy person with a knife threatening you or other people be sure to give him a hug, ask about their childhood and invite them for some tea. Personally I would rather they were shot.
2
This report is a really disappointing piece of reporting. Why did they have to shoot him that many times and kill him? Was that necessary? Can't they shoot him in the foot and knocked him down and arrest him? What is wrong with us?
3
I've no doubt the guy was mentally ill and agitated, which is scary, but WHY would a police officer grab him by his backpack if that's the case? And the FIRST resort is shooting him seven times? Ridiculous. Our police officers seem to be "trained" to escalate things as quickly as possible. This is not acceptable--and yet, he won't be charged, as almost all NYC police officers aren't charged for killing someone. We need to train police officers to actually try to help people.
5
Why are NYPD cops trained to empty their guns into anyone they decide to shoot? He has a knife. Shoot him in the legs once -- twice? Why NINE rounds? Why shoot to kill? And as we have seen in prior incidents, cops often end up shooting innocent bystanders as well.
Remember the August 2012 shooting at the Empire State Building?
http://nyti.ms/1AjXTqn
"From about eight feet away, the officers confronted Mr. Johnson and when he pulled out his gun, they opened fire, shooting a total of 16 rounds. Mr. Johnson was killed and nine bystanders were wounded, perhaps all by police bullets."
16 rounds shot at one man from 8 feet away; 9 bystanders wounded.
Almost makes you feel safer when there aren't any cops in sight.
Remember the August 2012 shooting at the Empire State Building?
http://nyti.ms/1AjXTqn
"From about eight feet away, the officers confronted Mr. Johnson and when he pulled out his gun, they opened fire, shooting a total of 16 rounds. Mr. Johnson was killed and nine bystanders were wounded, perhaps all by police bullets."
16 rounds shot at one man from 8 feet away; 9 bystanders wounded.
Almost makes you feel safer when there aren't any cops in sight.
2
Will there be automatic outrage at this police shooting as one
would expect if it happened in a poorer part of New York ?
would expect if it happened in a poorer part of New York ?
At what point was the man handcuffed? After he was shot in the head?
1
What happened to new police training on handling the mentally ill? Police body armour will do a pretty good job protecting from a knife thrust, what about the innocent bystander?
34
Are you kidding? Body armor protects the torso. The knife is a Spyderco, which can easily sever an artery. The carotid isn't protected by the armor, and neither is the femoral.
If I were on the street and a mentally ill man was brandishing a Spyderco with a four inch blade, I'd want a cop to shoot him. And quickly.
If I were on the street and a mentally ill man was brandishing a Spyderco with a four inch blade, I'd want a cop to shoot him. And quickly.
1
I'm quite critical of any excessive uses of force by police, and there have been plenty of tragic--and even criminal--examples over recent years. But bullet resistant vests were never intended for officers allowing themselves to be stabbed or shot in order to avoid using deadly force. If the general facts are as described by department officials--and I'd like to see surveillance footage or corroboration of the NYPD's account by non-police witnesses--it sounds as if this may have been a very close-quarters struggle, at a distance of feet, not yards between the officer and the man with the knife. But I never assume the first reports of events to be completely accurate.
Soft armor aka Second Chance vests, as they are colloquially known, are not designed to stop sharp point objects. I know it may sound counter-intuitive to a civilian because if it can stop bullets then it must be able to stop a knife; kevlar is woven to maximize the distribution of force across an area when a bullet strikes its surface. A knife's concentrated point can and will penetrate that.
Sounds to me they gave Mr. Conrad a choice to drop the knife with multiple verbal commands and when he began rushing the officers, he sealed his fate. Please educate yourself and google "the 21 foot rule". At close ranges these officers encounter in public streets due to traffic, buildings, and pedestrians/bystanders/the-next-eager-viral-camera-phone-director closing in to see what's going on.
To everyone else who doesn't understand why lethal force was used- these officers did not come in to the situation guns drawn. After going through the different levels leading up to deadly force- to include presence, verbal, and physical interaction, the deceased brandished a deadly weapon. Despite the attempts to de-escalate the situation, the suspect chose to attack. Contrary to Hollywood/TV, it often takes more than one or two bullets to incapacitate a human as the body is quite resilient, especially when adrenaline and/or other chemicals are involved.
Sounds to me they gave Mr. Conrad a choice to drop the knife with multiple verbal commands and when he began rushing the officers, he sealed his fate. Please educate yourself and google "the 21 foot rule". At close ranges these officers encounter in public streets due to traffic, buildings, and pedestrians/bystanders/the-next-eager-viral-camera-phone-director closing in to see what's going on.
To everyone else who doesn't understand why lethal force was used- these officers did not come in to the situation guns drawn. After going through the different levels leading up to deadly force- to include presence, verbal, and physical interaction, the deceased brandished a deadly weapon. Despite the attempts to de-escalate the situation, the suspect chose to attack. Contrary to Hollywood/TV, it often takes more than one or two bullets to incapacitate a human as the body is quite resilient, especially when adrenaline and/or other chemicals are involved.
3
I agree with the other comments here.....did this obviously disturbed person really pose such a great threat that he needed to be killed? Not passing judgement on the police, but still, I doubt this person really couldn't be contained in a more humane way. Tragic.
29
7 + 2 rounds fired? Really? Is NYC the only city where residents might carry knives? If not, why are our LEO's pumping lead while elsewhere LEO's are trained to do something less deadly? When a person is struck by just one round, at fairly close range, its usually pretty obvious. Why are LEO's emptying their revolvers? To eliminate the possibility of a suspect living...and potentially filing a lawsuit? Even though the shooting MAY have been justified, 9 rounds fired into a single individual is excessive and smacks of an execution, rather than a defensive move. Why not stop after 2 or 3 and see what the condition of the suspect is? Bullets aren't made of gummi-bears. They annihilate bodies. This guy was just blown away (with bystanders that could've been hurt or killed)
41
" Why not stop after 2 or 3 and see what the condition of the suspect is?"
I don't know where you received your training but operationally you fire until the person does not present a danger. Stopping to see how wounded he is will probably get you killed.
Mentally ill people are surprisingly resilient to injury with most of the credit going to adrenaline which prompts the fight or flight instinct and powers whichever is chosen. An adrenaline powered person can move at 20 feet per second leaving one little time to make a choice of how to defend one's self. People have been known to shake off the effects of a Taser or even a few gunshots under it's power.
I don't know where you received your training but operationally you fire until the person does not present a danger. Stopping to see how wounded he is will probably get you killed.
Mentally ill people are surprisingly resilient to injury with most of the credit going to adrenaline which prompts the fight or flight instinct and powers whichever is chosen. An adrenaline powered person can move at 20 feet per second leaving one little time to make a choice of how to defend one's self. People have been known to shake off the effects of a Taser or even a few gunshots under it's power.
2
You make the argument as if only American criminals have that adrenaline rush. How do you explain LEO training everywhere else in the world that seeks to prevent 'cop execution' generally? This officer all but emptied his revolver on this guy, and there've been too many like him just in NYC. Do we have different mentally ill people? Different drugs? What is it that causes American LEO's to kill so many more suspects per capita than anywhere else? My guess is its the training. LEO's here have been given a de facto license to kill when the threat is sufficient. Only 'sufficient' is defined far lower here than anywhere else, if its defined at all beyond the word 'threat'.
1
Why shoot someone multiple times, especially someone who did not have a gun himself and who was obviously mentally ill? Why not use a taser? And why is the treatment of America's mentally ill so dismal that they often end up in jail, homeless or worse? Of course, the mentally ill don't, as a rule, vote, and thus they have no voice in a nation which, if the GOP has its way, any semblance of a safety net will be dismantled in an ongoing conservative attempt to turn back the clock.
51
It is worth remembering that it was Ronald Reagan who began the trend of cutting treatment for the mentally ill and throwing unsafe folks back on the street.
4
Huh? NYC has a Democratic mayor, NY State has a Democratic governor, the NYC city government is among the most liberal and Democratic in the country, and somehow this is the GOP's fault? Fix it yourself.
2
Old school: Bring back the billy club. The man would be in Bellevue right now sucking down some painkillers with a concussion and probably a broken arm. Bringing back the billy club would save some lives and a lot of ink. My guess is we would see fewer police shootings and a lot more concussions.
60
Meanwhile, the other cop would have been stabbed multiple times and dead, yeah okay, come at my family, you're getting shot....PERIOD.
2
Just so you know how screwed up the lawyers have gotten things in NYC. A man in Brooklyn who was drunk and got into a brawl with NYPD was hit in the head with a night stick and sued for $1million, he received $750,000!
2
Yeah and everytime the cop uses it the city would have to pay a million dollars to some family. Billy clubs don't work because they are just as lethal as guns. You smash a dude skull in, he's going to die. The answer is to provide more training on how to deal with mental illness. However, if that training doesn't help, sometimes the least worst option is to take out your gun and kill the person attacking you with a lethal weapon.
2
I'm guessing that shooting a person in the leg as they stalk forward will cause them to fall down in agony. At which point you can either subdue them, or go the route of blasting them full of more holes as they writhe around on the ground.
Either way, after all is said and done the police always always always get "a pass" on their conduct. As long as the 'pereptrator' brandishes a weapon? The police are allowed to blast away at them.
I'm not a fan of that rule of thumb.
Either way, after all is said and done the police always always always get "a pass" on their conduct. As long as the 'pereptrator' brandishes a weapon? The police are allowed to blast away at them.
I'm not a fan of that rule of thumb.
60
Bet you would become a fan quickly if the perp was approaching you or a loved one with a drawn knife. Easy for you couch quarterbacks to issue commentary on police tactics, if only you had an ounce of experience perhaps we could take you seriously.
2
Police are trained to shoot into torso if they get into situation to use their weapon. Shooting into leg happens only by accident or in the movies. It is also possible that a person with a leg gunshot does not survive.
1
Do you have any idea how hard it is to shoot the leg of someone lunging at you with a knife? Torso is a much, much bigger target, and is the only place it makes sense to aim with that little reaction time available. And yes, anytime a person brandishes a weapon and attempts to use it against anyone, including police officers, officers are allowed to respond. Not a difficult concept.
2
Nine shots fired by the police, and a bystander is grazed by one of those bullets. Were the police a greater threat to the general public than was the assailant?
From the article: "One woman, a bystander, suffered a minor wound after being grazed by a bullet." ... "At that point, another officer rushing to the scene fired seven rounds at Mr. Conrad, and a police sergeant fired two more rounds at him, according to the police."
From the article: "One woman, a bystander, suffered a minor wound after being grazed by a bullet." ... "At that point, another officer rushing to the scene fired seven rounds at Mr. Conrad, and a police sergeant fired two more rounds at him, according to the police."
30
Here is a portrait of our society. We offer little to those whose brain chemistry causes them to lose normal awareness, whether because of lead or trauma or genetic predisposition. If such person becomes homeless, irrational, confused, inebriated and, finally,- threatening- then they can be terminated where they stand, by those we employ to "keep the peace",- and to whom we also offer very little to cope with this scenario. A badge and uniform, a lethal weapon, an average-ish pay and good benefits, and our consent "to do what must be done". For the rest, we are encouraged to pursue aquisition of things as our total physical infrastructure depends on this being so. The people sitting at the cafe in the land protected by vast layers of technological sophistication and organization, looked up from their drinks, and saw a man who had become a danger being terminated. And we lamented perhaps, yet we said it was "a justified response".
97
Thank you for your perspicacious and truly thoughtful comment.
We live in a society where raising a hand to law enforcement entitles them to take your life. It's really wrong and sad.
I'm sure that the man was dangerous, but like other commenters have written, the lethal response seems wildly disproportionate to the threat.
Most of us are just lucky- we don't suffer from mental illness, have supporting friends and family, etc.
Many of us are blithely ignorant of how fragile and delicate the veneer of our 'normalcy' truly is.
Naturally, I feel bad for the cops too.
We live in a society where raising a hand to law enforcement entitles them to take your life. It's really wrong and sad.
I'm sure that the man was dangerous, but like other commenters have written, the lethal response seems wildly disproportionate to the threat.
Most of us are just lucky- we don't suffer from mental illness, have supporting friends and family, etc.
Many of us are blithely ignorant of how fragile and delicate the veneer of our 'normalcy' truly is.
Naturally, I feel bad for the cops too.
1
And what do we do about the horrors inflicted on society by those whose brain chemistry causes them to have no awareness of basic humanity, no respect for the principles of law and no desire to do anything in life other than get richer and richer at the expense of their fellow men and women? Why are the ravings of a poor sociopath seen as horrific, while the ravings of a wealthy sociopath seen as just business as usual? When we see a disheveled person ranting and raving, we tune them out and hope they won't hurt us. But when we hear a wealthy and successful person of diminished moral and ethical capacity say that they could shoot someone on Fifth Avenue and not have to worry about being arrested - we giggle and guffaw - as though it were the most natural thing in the world.
1
We used to take care of those incapable of self-preservation. Even at their worst, NY State mental hospitals such as Harlem Valley were better for their patients then life alone on the streets!
Taser, pepper spray, shoot leg, muscle him down, shoot one bullet or two. Try something before ending one life with 9 bullets. Life shouldn't be so cheap!!
Knife is enough justification to shoot and kill. However, was it was it the only option?
Hope he didn't have family. Otherwise, can't imagine how sad they will be.
Knife is enough justification to shoot and kill. However, was it was it the only option?
Hope he didn't have family. Otherwise, can't imagine how sad they will be.
68
On a crowded street? Are you serious?
1
Maybe the city will come up with some kind of training for New Yorkers to learn how to avoid bullets fired by police. Seven shots? I hope that police officer is required to take more shooting practice. In fact, I hope there is some kind of investigation about why sooooooo many shots have to be fired in such a crowded area. Cops have to protect themselves, no doubt, but we need protection too.
2
What was the assailant trying to do? Was he going for the officer's leg? Was he trying to use the butt of the knife to subdue the officer? It seems to me he was trying to kill someone and someone got killed. That's too bad.
1
At close distance a knife is just as deadly as a firearm. Secondly, unlike in the movies or TV, one or two well placed shots to the center body may not immediately incapacitate or stop a determined assailant. If in fact the assailant lunged at an officer with a knife, it was appropriate for the other NYPD officers to continue shooting until the officers determined that the assailant was no longer a threat. Unfortunate situation, and perhaps if the officers had TASERS there would have been a different outcome, but I believe the officers acted appropriately. Also note that the officer who shot the assailant was visibly upset and certainly not bloodthirsty or out of control as suggested by some commenters below. Readers should support the officers involved instead of second guessing them
160
I think one can support the officers-- in the sense that we don't think they acted wrongfully. They were doing their job as taught and instructed to. The real problem is that law officers are trained to rely on deadly force when a situation may not require it. In this story the 8" knife is really only a 4" blade, and yes, that can be deadly up-close, but there are (and should be) other ways to disarm and subdue a person-- maybe we should ask all the police in England. We don't know much about the man killed, but it seems likely he was not in his right mind. I thought we had begun to move this conversation forward in NYC about police violence, but the unfortunately use of deadly force persists.
1
That's why the job is dangerous, but in cases like this it's more dangerous for bystanders than for the officers. Other countries train officers to risk their lives to protect people, we train them to risk others' lives and kill people.
1
One person grazed by a police bullet? Maybe the city will come up with discount kevlar protectors for New Yorkers as NYC becomes more of a Dodge City.
1
I don't understand--he had left the store. It's not even clear that he refused to pay. What was he going to be arrested for? The police should have told him to go away and left it at that. The police in this city are out of control and bloodthirsty. This must stop.
52
This poor man would eventually have stabbed someone, maybe killed someone. He's one of many mentally ill people on the streets getting no treatment whatsoever. Only some of them are violent, but all of them are suffering terribly, abandoned to a criminal justice system that is simply not equipped to deal with mental illness. Not since Dickens' times have the mentally ill been treated this badly, and it's not the fault of the police.
78
You can stop and question someone without intending to arrest them. But I see you have your mind made up.
Our "bloodthirsty" police shot and killed eight people in 2014 the last year stats were published. Eight people in a city of over eight million that swells by millions more during the workday. In a population that large I would call that restraint not "bloodthirsty".
34
The World WIde Plaza (825 8th Ave) has video surveillance cameras on the corner of 49th and 8th and 50th and 8th. That's high quality footage. So video surveillance footage is not a mystery. In addition this guy was a regular problem in this Key Food Emporium. The man who was shot was face down on the pavement in a pool of blood from a fatal wound with his hands behind his back. The woman who was initially reported to have been stabbed by the assailant was indeed grazed by a bullet and was on the south east corner of 59th and 8th. One of the officers was so visibly shaken by the event to appear to be in shock (one of the bystanders said he was the one who shot the assailant but I did not see that part of the event). The video and further investigation should flesh this all out in the end. I look forward to accurate coverage of it.
41
Southeast corner of 59th? Or 49th? 59th is about 10 blocks north of the incident.
1
I'll wait until the video is release before I make any judgement.
7
If law enforcement, who regularly and consistently undergo training for shooting fire arms, are capable of errant shots that injure an innocent bystander, why does anyone believe that regular civilians, who are not subjected to the same level of training and scrutiny, have any business being allowed to carry such weapons?
30
I spend 2-3 hours a month at the range. I'm sure that is more time than most police officers do. Many also have defensive training as well.
We're a lot more qualified than you think.
We're a lot more qualified than you think.
1
'On the corner of 49th Street and Eighth Avenue, the officer engaged the man, grabbing him by his backpack.'
This not the best way to deal with someone who is agitated.
Don't the police have any training?
This not the best way to deal with someone who is agitated.
Don't the police have any training?
42
Not only in NYC, but the entire US, the police immediately shoot, and shoot to kill. There are other weapons available today (tasers etc.) to control the criminal, and in this case he was armed with a knife-why was deadly force the first resort?
In other countries (Germany e.g.) police often shoot to disable, to wound. That is not the policy in the US-any use of a gun the police must kill. And why must they shoot so many times? Are they so poorly trained-yes is the answer, American police are inept marksmen. After all this is their profession-how can German police be such better shots?
This man was obviously disturbed, and dangerous-but did he deserve to be shot down dead in the street?
In other countries (Germany e.g.) police often shoot to disable, to wound. That is not the policy in the US-any use of a gun the police must kill. And why must they shoot so many times? Are they so poorly trained-yes is the answer, American police are inept marksmen. After all this is their profession-how can German police be such better shots?
This man was obviously disturbed, and dangerous-but did he deserve to be shot down dead in the street?
23
If a man is coming at the police with an 8-inch knife, would you really rely on a taser?
23
Yes.
1
"and in this case he was armed with a knife-why was deadly force the first resort?"
As if a knife isn't a deadly weapon in the hand of a person capable of moving at 20 feet per second?
As if a knife isn't a deadly weapon in the hand of a person capable of moving at 20 feet per second?
2
The few comments so far are critical of the police for shooting this man. I am glad that, in general, cell phones are making people aware of the problems in policing.
But don't any of these keyboard critics have any idea how lethal an eight inch blade is in the hands of an agitated person? I don't think anyone would have found it possible to come anywhere near this man with a club or a taser, and the man was in a crowded area. Others were in danger. This is why the police carry guns.
The real crime is how little care and help there is for the mentally ill.
But don't any of these keyboard critics have any idea how lethal an eight inch blade is in the hands of an agitated person? I don't think anyone would have found it possible to come anywhere near this man with a club or a taser, and the man was in a crowded area. Others were in danger. This is why the police carry guns.
The real crime is how little care and help there is for the mentally ill.
71
I think most of us understand how scary it is to be within arms reach of a crazy person wielding a knife. What's notable however is that there was no mention of his brandishiing a knife in the store, or at anyone else, until such time as the cop decided to 'grab' at the beligerent, mentally-ill man by way of his backpack. Far too often cops are escalating situations instead of diffusing them via common sense, emotional intelligence, and an understanding of mental illness.
1
Well, here's a "keyboard critic" to point out that, while that knife appears dangerous, it did not have an "8 inch blade," as you say. Interesting that the report was "8 inch knife" and it is very easy for listeners to mentally translate that into "8 inch blade." Look at the photo of the knife - the blade is clearly about 4 inches, with the handle the other 4 inches. Dangerous enough, as-is, but the report was phrased to make it sound worse. Why?
I agree that police armed with guns should not be the first-responders in assisting people who are mentally. But, to say that police are armed with guns to protect bystanders seems to miss the part where the store staff managed to get the man to leave without being injured. It was only after an officer grabbed the man that the knife came into play, and the only people injured were by those guns - one possibly ill man killed and one un-involved woman injured. It was only a few years ago where cops shot at a man on 8th Ave, but missed him and hit 2 bystanders. Then there was the murder suspect near the ESB a few years ago, where cops DID manage to hit and kill him, and also hit 9 innocent bystanders. Do we really think guns make these situations safer?
As for the cops, how do we think this impacts them? How do they feel when they hit bystanders? Or even when they shoot and kill a mentally ill person? Does anyone think the City is going to pay for good mental health care for them to deal with the trauma from killing someone?
I agree that police armed with guns should not be the first-responders in assisting people who are mentally. But, to say that police are armed with guns to protect bystanders seems to miss the part where the store staff managed to get the man to leave without being injured. It was only after an officer grabbed the man that the knife came into play, and the only people injured were by those guns - one possibly ill man killed and one un-involved woman injured. It was only a few years ago where cops shot at a man on 8th Ave, but missed him and hit 2 bystanders. Then there was the murder suspect near the ESB a few years ago, where cops DID manage to hit and kill him, and also hit 9 innocent bystanders. Do we really think guns make these situations safer?
As for the cops, how do we think this impacts them? How do they feel when they hit bystanders? Or even when they shoot and kill a mentally ill person? Does anyone think the City is going to pay for good mental health care for them to deal with the trauma from killing someone?
The pic of the knife shows a foldable, if that's an 8" blade than the total knife length would be about 16.5". That typical looking pocket knife appears to have about a 4" blade and they don't even make that style in 8".
Swearing at people in the store? That carries the death penalty in NYC? The perhaps deranged man apparently didn't threaten anyone with the knife until assaulted physically by the first officer. Then the opportunity to kill reared its ugly head.
47
@DaveD: Oh, but you'd be singing a different tune if the man had pulled out the knife and stabbed the store cashier. Then it would have been "how can a guy this crazy be allowed to walk around with a knife and threaten people?"
Do you actually believe this was the man's first time being belligerent and threatening? Would you have wanted him menacing you?
Do you actually believe this was the man's first time being belligerent and threatening? Would you have wanted him menacing you?
4
You forgot about the knife part.
2
Yup. This is not that much different from what we see with cops and car chases....the decision to 'chase' often far outweighing the crime (car theft?...outstanding warrant?), and far too often the person being chased either gets an eventual 'beat down' by the cops, or dies in a crash, and/or totally innocent other drivers and/or pedestrians are maimed or killed, all because police felt it was more important to send their 2-ton vehicle (and that of the person they are chasing) speeding down our city streets and highways.
Oye.
Oye.
17
Don't condemn those cops until all the facts are in. Don't sit back and judge what may have been an instaneous life-or-death decision. Maybe the knife-wielder was an instant away from grabbing a 10 year-old bystander and holding that 8" knife to the kid's throat. Wait for the facts. Those cops really do put their lives on the line every day.
61
While it's true that an adult male can advance 20 feet in just a couple seconds, in my mind I keep contrasting this with the French and Belgian police who, even with heavily armed terrorists, are able to capture them with a shot or two in the leg, rather than a volley of bullets. I suppose they want to get information from him by keeping him alive, while the crazy poor of NYC have less value to anyone so are blasted to pieces.
2
We need to treat people with mental health problems rather than have them untreated and in danger of interacting with others in a manner that can cause the public or themselves harm.
25
Yes. And who will treat them and who will pay for it?
3
The shooting was clearly self defense. The threat must be terminated if he presents risk of serious bodily harm. Give the cops a day off and a promotion.
51
"must be terminated"
Do you live in a movie? Nobody, not even a civilian attacking a LEO "must be terminated". That's not 'preserve and protect', that's 'search and destroy'.
Do you live in a movie? Nobody, not even a civilian attacking a LEO "must be terminated". That's not 'preserve and protect', that's 'search and destroy'.
3
yeah...it was self-defense after the cop tried to 'engage' an obviously distraught, mentally ill man, by 'grabbing him by his backpack'. The mentally ill man, in response to being grabbed at and subsequently falling to the ground, then pulled out a knife. So yes, at that point it became self-defense on the part of the cop. That does not however negate the fact that the cop should have approached the situation very differently from the outset. Then we may have had a very different outcome.
1
There are dozens (hundreds?) of mentally unstable, disheveled, and otherwise unhinged people who loiter around midtown and in the subway stations between Penn Station and 59th Street on the West Side. They harass tourists, businesspeople, and commuters. For some reason, our city leaders consider this to be an acceptable state of affairs. It is a miracle that more people aren't assaulted.
As to this particular incident, I was on 48th and 8th when it happened. Truly scary. Glad the cops are ok. If you come at a cop with a knife, best of luck, no sympathy.
As to this particular incident, I was on 48th and 8th when it happened. Truly scary. Glad the cops are ok. If you come at a cop with a knife, best of luck, no sympathy.
89
"no sympathy"
Evidently. Would you have had any sympathy for any bystanders killed while in the line of fire? That woman was lucky she was just grazed. Lets hope you're not the innocent bystander the next time cops empty their weapons in mid-town crosswalk.
Evidently. Would you have had any sympathy for any bystanders killed while in the line of fire? That woman was lucky she was just grazed. Lets hope you're not the innocent bystander the next time cops empty their weapons in mid-town crosswalk.
40
Let's hope a mentally ill person never comes at you with an 8-inch knife. At least the police officer had a gun, what do you have for protection?
2
Nerves frayed in midtown? How about traumatized. 9 shots seems excessive to disable a threat.
1
So the fact that the police killed this man by firing nine bullets suggest that this was an over reaction by scared, poorly trained police. He did not have a gun only a knife. They should have backed away from him and found ways of disarming him or disabling him; it may have taken some time but it would have saved a life.
35
Backed away? After reading b your comment I think they should have ran away. Hopefully the people who hear the evidence in this case in the grand jury room have more respect for police officer's lives than you do. Only a knife indeed.
2
@joshua: It might have saved the man's life - but what if the next time that man became belligerent and had a knife, he maimed or killed someone else? I don't think society is advantaged by having mentally ill, belligerent, knife-wielding people menacing the innocent. Someone else may have paid with THEIR innocent life if this man had eventually walked free.
3
Sorry, this is the real world. What if in the meantime, he knifed a loved one of yours...?
3
Even if one accepts in every detail the narration by the police, the shooting seems far from justified. And, living in Chicago, I know that the initial versions by the police are more about saving face than anything else.
52
by you living in Chicago, perhaps your threshold for what's acceptable behavior is lowered
A senseless unnecessary death provoked by tactics that inflamed rather than calmed a situation. Mentally ill people do not do well with confrotation. Police solve through confrontation. It's a recipe that leads to disaster. Do police personnel need to be re-trained? Can the philosophy of policing embrace a totally different way to respond to out of control people? Something major needs to be done to change how police work in the community.
39
Store employees managed to force him out, yet trained police officers have to fire 9 shots at him. That's our "finest."
96
In defensive of our police, the man did have a very threatening knife. With so many bystanders in the area, it was certainly possible from his actions that he may have randomly targeted an uninvolved bystander. New York City police have an incredibly difficult job protecting so many people. Give them some credit.
3
If you actually lived or worked in NYC you would be very thankful that the NYPD looks out for your safety.
4
"Store employees managed to force him out, yet trained police officers have to fire 9 shots at him. That's our "finest."
The assailant hadn't pulled out the knife yet. If he had I'm sure they would have backed off and not thrown him out.
The assailant hadn't pulled out the knife yet. If he had I'm sure they would have backed off and not thrown him out.
2
Well of course the police say that all indications are that the shooting was justified. Doe's anyone expect anything else. That's what they're trained to do, and there in lies the problem. It's the training. Never mind assessing the situation, just shoot to kill.
Training of police officers has to change. And not just in NYC.
Training of police officers has to change. And not just in NYC.
27
This is a disturbing story. Did this man really need to die? It appears that the store employees had already forced him out from the premises when the police decided to tackle him. How was he a danger to armed policemen when he didn't cause any harm to unarmed store employees? So the only way for the police to tackle a man with a knife is to shoot and kill him? What about using a taser? What about shooting in a non-lethal manner? The guy was probably mentally disturbed and needed to be evaluated in a psychiatric ER. Instead he ended up lying dead in a pool of blood on a street in the richest city in the world. There is a darkness in the soul of this country. I keep on losing some degree of hope every day and I fear that one day only emptiness and despair will remain.
182
@Rajeev: And what do you imagine would have happened after he was "evaluated in a psychiatric ER"? Eventually he'd have been discharged and I'll bet he'd get himself another knife and who knows what might have happened then?
Have you ever dealt with mentally ill, completely irrational/paranoid people who are armed and angry? Have you ever tried to reason with a psychotic person who won't take the meds they need? It's so easy to be "brave" and compassionate when it's not YOU who was being menaced.
Have you ever dealt with mentally ill, completely irrational/paranoid people who are armed and angry? Have you ever tried to reason with a psychotic person who won't take the meds they need? It's so easy to be "brave" and compassionate when it's not YOU who was being menaced.
5
Maybe he could have been treated, he wasn't even given a chance.
1
Shooting in a non-lethal manner only happens in a movie - unless you're literally a Hollywood action hero incarnate you're going to miss and get someone killed, probably yourself.
2
A killing justified- really? There were no alternatives? How many officers were present? Seems a lot. Then seven shots; that is a hopped-up shooter, not very well in control.
Firemen and women rush into burning buildings to help people. They succeed as well as die. For the police, better to stand off and fire away
Firemen and women rush into burning buildings to help people. They succeed as well as die. For the police, better to stand off and fire away
70
If the guy hadn't lunged at the cop with a knife, they could have subdued him. Do it every day. Id want to help someone in a burning building, but not if they were going to stick a knife in me.
1
club,,, taser,,, wouldn't work?
WHY so quick to kill?
WHY so quick to kill?
106
No they would not or rather they may not. If you are close enough to use a club then you are close enough to get stabbed. Knives are much more dangerous than clubs. Tasers might work but they might not go through the clothing. This person is an immediate and active threat to all around. If he had slashed a child just before being shot would that change things for you?
Well done cops, thank you. Ignore the nonsense here.
Well done cops, thank you. Ignore the nonsense here.
3
Why so quick to kill? Because when someone lunges at you with a knife, they want to kill you, and tasers, clubs and pepper spray may not stop them.
36
I'm not saying the police weren't justified in this case, but there's a simple answer when someone has a knife: step back beyond the range of the person's arm reach and then try to calm the person down. The police could also carry and use a net. Throw a net over the guy. Use a giant bolster to knock him to the ground. Use a taser from a distance.
Is this really about the safety of the officer or is it more about the ego of the officer when a suspect doesn't listen to them? It seems to me that the employees of the store who got the guy to leave used far more restraint and intelligence than the police officers did.
And why does someone have to be shot five or more times? Whenever so many bullets are fired, that's an indication to me that the police have panicked. And that's besides the fact that the police using guns in such a crowded area endangers the public. As it was, a woman was grazed by a bullet.
I just think we have to find a better way to deal with mentally disturbed violent people, especially since there seems to be so many of them. The police need far more training in this regard. And they probably need far more training on the range because one bullet should be able to bring someone down. This isn't the movies or TV where characters get shot multiple times, barely bleed and act as if they got a slight bruise.
Is this really about the safety of the officer or is it more about the ego of the officer when a suspect doesn't listen to them? It seems to me that the employees of the store who got the guy to leave used far more restraint and intelligence than the police officers did.
And why does someone have to be shot five or more times? Whenever so many bullets are fired, that's an indication to me that the police have panicked. And that's besides the fact that the police using guns in such a crowded area endangers the public. As it was, a woman was grazed by a bullet.
I just think we have to find a better way to deal with mentally disturbed violent people, especially since there seems to be so many of them. The police need far more training in this regard. And they probably need far more training on the range because one bullet should be able to bring someone down. This isn't the movies or TV where characters get shot multiple times, barely bleed and act as if they got a slight bruise.
1
"On the corner of 49th Street and Eighth Avenue, the officer engaged the man, grabbing him by his backpack. They both went crashing to the pavement, the police said."
How does one 'engage' with an obviously disturbed, belligerent person, by 'grabbing their backpack'?
Our police need better training in what it means to be 'emotionally intelligent', and how to deal with mentally disturbed people.
How does one 'engage' with an obviously disturbed, belligerent person, by 'grabbing their backpack'?
Our police need better training in what it means to be 'emotionally intelligent', and how to deal with mentally disturbed people.
151
So easy to criticize.
So very easy when you have absolutely no idea about which you are taking.
So very easy when you have absolutely no idea about which you are taking.
2
Sorry, it doesn't work that way. Using your argument, anyone that is violent is mentally challenged and the police should never act. Of course if anyone is hurt, it's the fault of police for not acting.
1
i understand the gravity of the situation especially with a knife in the hand of an aggravated person, but there has to be a more practical way to defuse or control than the series of actions which led up to this killing.
No moral judgement.
No moral judgement.
84
This story is incomplete, it doesn't add up. Everyone in NYC is belligerent. He argued with the cashier. Store employees ejected him, this happens a million times a day in NYC. He was out of the store and walking down the street and then...? Pulled down by his backpack? Pulls a knife on an officer?? Takes 9 bullets from two other officers???? We will have to wait and see what really happened here.
48
Pardon me, Howie. But not everyone in NYC is belligerent. And this is the threatening kind of belligerence that we experience too often, hoping that our stop on the subway will come before the person explodes... if he explodes, which most of the time doesn't happen, but sometimes does. That said, such people are usually mentally ill and it really does seem as if there must be procedures that exist that could be used to control such a person without killing him.
12
Why are you defending such belligerence? I live in Midtown and have to confront people like this all the time. It's very disconcerting, to say the least.
22
There were lot many officers than the man with knife. Why couldn't he be handled like a man by all of then instead of easy way out of firing a gun, and as always killing a man.
Is life these cheap?
Is life these cheap?
61
So you think that if a lot of people go up to someone wielding a knife they will be safer? Insane. Maybe all of them will get slashed in the face? If someone if a threat to the public or an officer they need to be dealt with. Tasers can be ineffective, night sticks against a knife is not effective - this is not a movie this is real life.
25
Very sad end to the life of a disturbed man, clearly mentally ill. I wish he could have gotten help before it escalated to this.
32
It seems that NYC cops just can't resist the temptation to shoot, even on a crowded midtown street. It's telling that the only innocent bystander hurt was injured by a police offer's bullet.
73
Although the bystander's wound was reported to be "minor," she still was hurt by a bullet. I work with my hands and any injury to the wrist/hand area could mean drastic problems. Sorry for all involved.
12
It's minor if you observe it; major if you experience it. Even relatively small injuries can cause a lot of trouble.
Perhaps shooting him in the leg, to incapacitate him, was not an option that was available?
46
From what I have heard, NYC officers are not trained to incapacitate, only to kill. However, when there was a drunk off-duty narcotics officer here on the UWS waiving his service revolver around in a menacing fashion, his colleagues managed to disarm him without harm to anyone. Hmmm....
101
Back in the 50s and 60s, NYC police officers were trained to incapacitate, not to kill. Trained to aim for the extremities, not the trunk of the body.
19
Shooting in the leg is not that easy and probably will not work either.
17