I feel the show jumped the shark with Jesus Snow's resurrection. The "Game" of the title is now crooked. No rules, no game. Heck, let's bring his killers back to life in episode 7. Also, GOT is veering dangerously close to run of the mill sword and sandal epics thus far this season. Let's all boo Ramsey Whiplash, give him a mustache to twirl. Tyrion is becoming tiresome--that "conversation" scene was a total waste of precious running time that could have used to better effect with any of the other 900 subplots. Still watching. And hoping.
I personally prefer FrankenMountain, but Mountainstein's not bad.
2
Get ready for............Real Hosewives of Vaes Dothrak!
"The golden haired witch has gained weight"
"It is known"
"The golden haired witch has gained weight"
"It is known"
5
Tower of Joy. Sea of Joy. Back to the trail. See you all next week.
Prediction- Arya's final training task is to kill one of her siblings. Most likely Jon since they were really close season 1.
1
Could we have one of the faceless ones possibly pose as a Stark to the Bolton's surprise.
7
Ooh la la! That would be wonderful, Mark!
2
Great idea!
1
A lot of griping here! I’m not as much put-off by a deliberate pace in storytelling, and I’m a little less disposed to have an itchy trigger finger in denouncing how the creators are presenting the tale. For now, I’m content to wait and see.
I think that, when it’s all over, I’m likely to end up •really• exasperated by the story’s ultimate resolution only if we’re shown, in the final scene, that Ned Stark is actually a master stonemason working on a new wing at Winterfell, and he comes home to “Maester Luwin,” who is really his dad, napping by the fire, and to his autistic son, Hodor, gazing, as always, rapt into his snow globe of Winterfell, in the swirling depths of which he has imagined all seven (or eight, or nine . . .) seasons of the show . . . .
(Well, I guess that for someone who figuratively lives in a snow globe, the phrase, “Winter is Coming,” would be much on his mind, certainly.)
— Brian
I think that, when it’s all over, I’m likely to end up •really• exasperated by the story’s ultimate resolution only if we’re shown, in the final scene, that Ned Stark is actually a master stonemason working on a new wing at Winterfell, and he comes home to “Maester Luwin,” who is really his dad, napping by the fire, and to his autistic son, Hodor, gazing, as always, rapt into his snow globe of Winterfell, in the swirling depths of which he has imagined all seven (or eight, or nine . . .) seasons of the show . . . .
(Well, I guess that for someone who figuratively lives in a snow globe, the phrase, “Winter is Coming,” would be much on his mind, certainly.)
— Brian
8
Were the babies not switched at Crasters death?
1
I miss the occasional longer exchanges of dialog 2 seasons ago and prior. This episode we have Tommen talking to a head priest/jailer and that scene was stilted and undramatic as can be. The quick editing of this season is very distracting. I am watching still, but sorry to say it with dwindling interest.
5
Longer exchanges and development in this show is just not possible any more. There are just way too many story arcs - Jon, Arya, Sansa, Cersei/Jaime, Daenerys, Meereen, Dorne, Littlefinger, Ramsay, Greyjoys, Bran, Sam (and I'm still probably missing a few). With 8-10 of these to address in each episode, they are lucky if each story arc gets 5 minutes of airtime. That is just not sufficient to tell a good story. The show has become too bloated for its own good - they have to bring some convergence of characters soon for it to regain it's luster.
1
Wish they used the original dialogue. Those simple, terse lines paint a vivid picture of the Kingsguard and significance of their being at Tower of Joy:
“I looked for you on the Trident,” Ned said to them.
“We were not there,” Ser Gerold answered.
“Woe to the Usurper if we had been,” said Ser Oswell.
“When King's Landing fell, Ser Jaime slew your king with a golden sword, and I wondered where you were.”
“Far away,” Ser Gerold said, “or Aerys would yet sit the Iron Throne, and our false brother would burn in seven hells.”
“I came down on Storm's End to lift the siege,” Ned told them, and the Lords Tyrell and Redwyne dipped their banners, and all their knights bent the knee to pledge us fealty. I was certain you would be among them.”
“Our knees do not bend easily,” said Ser Arthur Dayne.
“Ser Willem Darry is fled to Dragonstone, with your queen and Prince Viserys. I thought you might have sailed with him.”
“Ser Willem is a good man and true,” said Ser Oswell.
“But not of the Kingsguard,” Ser Gerold pointed out. “The Kingsguard does not flee.”
“Then or now,” said Ser Arthur. He donned his helm.
“We swore a vow,” explained old Ser Gerold.
Ned’s wraiths moved up beside him, with shadow swords in hand. They were seven against three.
“And now it begins,” said Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning. He unsheathed Dawn and held it with both hands. The blade was pale as milkglass, alive with light.
“No,” Ned said with sadness in his voice. “Now it ends.”
“I looked for you on the Trident,” Ned said to them.
“We were not there,” Ser Gerold answered.
“Woe to the Usurper if we had been,” said Ser Oswell.
“When King's Landing fell, Ser Jaime slew your king with a golden sword, and I wondered where you were.”
“Far away,” Ser Gerold said, “or Aerys would yet sit the Iron Throne, and our false brother would burn in seven hells.”
“I came down on Storm's End to lift the siege,” Ned told them, and the Lords Tyrell and Redwyne dipped their banners, and all their knights bent the knee to pledge us fealty. I was certain you would be among them.”
“Our knees do not bend easily,” said Ser Arthur Dayne.
“Ser Willem Darry is fled to Dragonstone, with your queen and Prince Viserys. I thought you might have sailed with him.”
“Ser Willem is a good man and true,” said Ser Oswell.
“But not of the Kingsguard,” Ser Gerold pointed out. “The Kingsguard does not flee.”
“Then or now,” said Ser Arthur. He donned his helm.
“We swore a vow,” explained old Ser Gerold.
Ned’s wraiths moved up beside him, with shadow swords in hand. They were seven against three.
“And now it begins,” said Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning. He unsheathed Dawn and held it with both hands. The blade was pale as milkglass, alive with light.
“No,” Ned said with sadness in his voice. “Now it ends.”
7
Stop giving away plot points in the headlines!
1
What's with all this "dishonorable" stab in the back of Arthur Dayne stuff? At one point he's fighting one on five. If one of those guys hit and got him from the back would that have been honorable? Ned didn't ask to have the guy stabbed in the back. He was the one that finished him off. He obviously didn't want to go too much into the details of the circumstances of this killing as to protect his sister among others. Where is the "dishonor" in any of this?
All's fair in love and war.
All's fair in love and war.
12
not among knights -- honor is all they have.
5
Shows Bran that knight-and-fair-maiden stories are not reality. War is hell.
3
For the Love of God, my darlings, his name is Jon, not John!
8
Hope your trek is going well, PrairieFlax! Did you find a Carl-hat to keep the sun out of your eyes :-)
2
Loved this week's episode and enjoying the season so far. Glad to see Jon and Rickon back in action. I hope that Rickon has become wily enough in his travels with Osha to outwit Ramsey and kick his a$$. I sat through the torture of Theon and ground my teeth (although I thought Theon deserved punishment for what he did). But, I cannot stomach another of Ramsey's torture sessions, if that's indeed what D&D intend for Rickon. Did the Umbers kill Shaggydog or did Ramsey kill Shaggydog? I've seen some theories floating around on other sites that the Umbers killed a wolf/dog, beheaded it, and lied to Ramsey claiming that the head is Shaggydog's. Meaning that Shaggydog is still alive somewhere. Thoughts?
5
@ Al — You ask, “Did the Umbers kill Shaggydog or did Ramsey [sic] kill Shaggydog?”
If you •watched• the episode, why are you asking? Lord •Umber• offers the head of Shaggydog (or of a substitute wolf, if we allow the possibility of the highly unlikely theories that have been advanced, that the Umbers are somehow gaming Ramsay (NOT “Ramsey”, with an “e”), and still supporting the Starks) as his answer to Ramsay’s (very reasonable) question, as he peers at the face of a lad he’s never met before, “How do I know that’s Rickon Stark?”
Under what possible construction of the events shown in that scene, might •Ramsay• have killed Shaggydog? Are you imagining that, somehow, Ramsay killed the wolf, and then Umber put its head on a grip hook, and dropped it on the table, when Ramsay needed reminding that Ramsay had killed the wolf, and that meant that the boy before him was Rickon???
— Brian
If you •watched• the episode, why are you asking? Lord •Umber• offers the head of Shaggydog (or of a substitute wolf, if we allow the possibility of the highly unlikely theories that have been advanced, that the Umbers are somehow gaming Ramsay (NOT “Ramsey”, with an “e”), and still supporting the Starks) as his answer to Ramsay’s (very reasonable) question, as he peers at the face of a lad he’s never met before, “How do I know that’s Rickon Stark?”
Under what possible construction of the events shown in that scene, might •Ramsay• have killed Shaggydog? Are you imagining that, somehow, Ramsay killed the wolf, and then Umber put its head on a grip hook, and dropped it on the table, when Ramsay needed reminding that Ramsay had killed the wolf, and that meant that the boy before him was Rickon???
— Brian
3
Disappointed with the paltry amount of time given to Dany's story this season. Three episodes in, and she didn't even have a scene in one of them. Since this is A Song of Ice and Fire, why haven't we seen more off Fire? - Since Roose said Ramsey needs a Stark to legitimize his hold on the north - I agree with that others that Rickon could be that Stark. Ramsey's done everything else that's heinous, why not child abuse? (I'm not condoning it.) Osha would be too much of a handful for him. He'll either try to kill her,or ignore her altogether. But she could be a real threat if Ramsey tries to rape Rickon. - I don't miss Myranda at all. - I fear that Tommen is now lost, and that he will try to influence his mother on all that is good and fine about the High Sparrow. (Love Jonathan Pryce; hate the character.) It seems the Lannisters are now just sitting duck rulers. - Of course the "little birds" would be little! And all for candy! - Very dangerous to try to change the past. Cf., Stephen King's novel November 1963. - Could Essos and Westeros exist in a parallel universe to ours? That is, they are in our time, and we in theirs, and neither of us know it? - Dan Stackhouse - Good to see you here. Please bring Greene and Lesley next time. I don't have a FB. My BFF sent you a message there (if that's you). Please check your Other message box. - Greetings from the Fontana Dam, North Carolina.
3
Hiya PrairieFlax, thanks, and I must admit I'm hardly ever on FB but that's probably my account you found. I'll try to login & check the messages. Interesting thoughts too, and I totally agree that we need more of Dany's story, presumably she's a good candidate to save Westeros from the White Walkers.
1
I blame GRRM for Dany. He put her in a holding pattern in his last books while he moved the other chess pieces around. I think the character really ran out of story until her time comes to join the others. When I read the books, I began to lightly skim any Dany mentions because they were such a bore.
2
For me this episode was more of a vehicle to set up big events, like Jon leaving the Watch, Cersei & Jamie trying to return to power, Arya's vision returning. I thought the Tower of Joy scene was great, Arthur Dayne really was the greatest swordsman in Westeros, took a stab ion the back by the cranorman Howland Reed to bring him down right when it looked like Ned was defeated.
But I do have one question about Rickon and Osha: why would the Umbers just give them up to Ramsey to easily? It doesn't make sense to that the Umbers, who did not swear fealty to the Boltons, would march into Winterfell and just say, oh here's a huge present, now let's be friends. Whatever leverage they had over Ramsey to not kill them (ie a living Stark) was just lost. However, my secret hope is that Rickon, Osha and Umbers are secretly working together to defeat Ramsey and return the Starks to power. In this scenario, the dire wolf head was not Shaggy Dog, but perhaps just another wolf. OK, seems like a long shot, but it's fun to speculate!!
But I do have one question about Rickon and Osha: why would the Umbers just give them up to Ramsey to easily? It doesn't make sense to that the Umbers, who did not swear fealty to the Boltons, would march into Winterfell and just say, oh here's a huge present, now let's be friends. Whatever leverage they had over Ramsey to not kill them (ie a living Stark) was just lost. However, my secret hope is that Rickon, Osha and Umbers are secretly working together to defeat Ramsey and return the Starks to power. In this scenario, the dire wolf head was not Shaggy Dog, but perhaps just another wolf. OK, seems like a long shot, but it's fun to speculate!!
8
Jon Snow the son of Lyanna and Rhaegar Targaryen? Could it be possible that Ned claimed him as his own bastard to cover the rape and honour of his dead sister?
5
Or to protect Jon from the wrath of the other lords who defeated the Targaryens.
7
Of course.
Although Lyanna probably ran off with and married Rhaegar willingly (she was promised to Robert, doesn't mean she wanted to be with him), making Jon Snow a legitimate heir to the Targaryens.
And Jon Snow probably has a sister (who is now babysitting Bran).
Lyanna is likely dying during childbirth in that tower.
Ned Stark in the book always says that Jon Snow "is his blood", he never calls him his son. And in Lyanna's last moments, Ned recalls her asking him to promise her something.
Although Lyanna probably ran off with and married Rhaegar willingly (she was promised to Robert, doesn't mean she wanted to be with him), making Jon Snow a legitimate heir to the Targaryens.
And Jon Snow probably has a sister (who is now babysitting Bran).
Lyanna is likely dying during childbirth in that tower.
Ned Stark in the book always says that Jon Snow "is his blood", he never calls him his son. And in Lyanna's last moments, Ned recalls her asking him to promise her something.
3
Wait! There's a theory that Osha is Jon's sister???
I don't know if anyone has proposed this, but what if we've all been led down the garden path by Melisandre's single-minded obsession with being the one to reveal Azor Ahai (and his flaming sword Lightbringer - first Stannis, now Jon Snow), and it's really Bran Stark? We are shown repeatedly that Bran has powers that are incredibly rare (a warg - having the ability to project his mind into an animal [which, to be fair, all the Stark children except Rob and Sansa - the two most Tully - have exhibited], a skin-changer (essentially, warging into a person - in this case, Hodor - which Jojen Reed said was extremely rare), and a green-seer (his prophetic visions and trips with the Three Eyed Raven [3ER]). 3ER said that he's been waiting for Bran for 1000 years and that he has to teach him 'everything'. Melisandre's obsession with royal blood isn't ruled out: as the oldest living legitimate male relative to Rob Stark, crowned King of the North, he's his heir. Starks held the title for thousands of years before bending the knee. As for the shade that's been thrown at Ned Stark for behaving dishonorably at the Tower of Joy, he was torn: Howland Reed, a bannerman sworn to serve him had just saved his life (potentially his sister's) by stabbing Ser Arthur Danye in the back - that was not planned. In their world, honor goes up and down through lord-bannerman-knight, he can't expose Reed for saving his life in a dishonorable way, so he tells a version of the truth that covers them all.
7
So what if it is super-powerful Bran, in a future episode, reaching back to bring Jon Snow to life? He showed he can reach across time. The ink wasn't dry in the past when Ned heard him and turned around.....
5
I like the episode a lot. And I totally support and agree with Jon's reaction to his resurrection. "Seeing black" was the deepest moment of the episode as well.
http://www.looktothecookie.org/2016/05/game-of-thrones-oathbreaker-pod.html
http://www.looktothecookie.org/2016/05/game-of-thrones-oathbreaker-pod.html
2
" Or perhaps it was something else. Labor pains maybe? It was Mother’s Day, after all."
Got it! Who was Jon Snow's mother? There've been all sorts of hints, but no answer. If Lyanna is alive and Rhaegar is dead, it makes sense that she dies in childbirth having Jon. OMG--does that make him a potential heir to the Iron Throne? Wouldn't that be "irononic" :-)
Got it! Who was Jon Snow's mother? There've been all sorts of hints, but no answer. If Lyanna is alive and Rhaegar is dead, it makes sense that she dies in childbirth having Jon. OMG--does that make him a potential heir to the Iron Throne? Wouldn't that be "irononic" :-)
5
You got a "Like" just for using the word "irononic".
1
At this point, the show has overtaken the books, but the Internet has overtaken the show. Of course nothing seems original or surprising -- every possible clue has been studied in detail and posted on-line, and every possible theory has been suggested and explored. How many viewers would have figured out on their own who John Snow's mother is? Not many. Now when it is revealed, everyone will complain how predictable it was. I think that the show is desperately trying to get ahead of the predictions, and is quickly moving through plot points (eg, Snow's resurrection and true lineage) to get ahead of the predictions that have been building among book readers for many years. I would recommend that viewers who find the story boring not spend time reading comment boards and watching YouTube theory pieces, and see how well they predict what will happen next on their own and without the combined force of a million analysts helping them.
19
Not moving quick enough
https://www.nbc.com/saturday-night-live/video/game-of-thrones-jon-snow/3...
Love that "We only have 10 hours this year, let's get moving" bit.
https://www.nbc.com/saturday-night-live/video/game-of-thrones-jon-snow/3...
Love that "We only have 10 hours this year, let's get moving" bit.
1
Short vignettes with no real resolution or satisfaction. Reminds me of Chris Clairemont's run on the X-Men comic back in the 80s.
I thought episode 3 was excellent. They handled Jon Snow's post-resurrection scenes very well. I agree with Jeremy that what he will do next is wide open and I'm looking forward to it.
Man, the Starks keep getting their butts kicked: Rickon is now at the mercy of Ramseys and Shaggy Dog. You'd think Direwolves could take care of themselves better than they have. Maybe Arya will start getting some Stark revenge now that she is no one. She was asked who was left on her kill list, and she's in a place all about death.
I also liked the scene with Varys in manipulating the woman into being an informant. He's very good (actor and character).
Point: Jon didn't turn the other cheek, but he did hesitate quite a bit before cutting the rope that would hang his killers. He looked at the kid and saw the hatred in his face. I guess he realized no act of mercy would ever quench that hatred.
Finally, I think I'm going to have to stop reading comments here because as Jeremy mentions there are just too many spoilers or probable spoilers. Why have people given up the aesthetic pleasure of surprise? Movie trailers have really been bad about spoilers too. I've held off on reading the books just so I can fully enjoy the series.
Man, the Starks keep getting their butts kicked: Rickon is now at the mercy of Ramseys and Shaggy Dog. You'd think Direwolves could take care of themselves better than they have. Maybe Arya will start getting some Stark revenge now that she is no one. She was asked who was left on her kill list, and she's in a place all about death.
I also liked the scene with Varys in manipulating the woman into being an informant. He's very good (actor and character).
Point: Jon didn't turn the other cheek, but he did hesitate quite a bit before cutting the rope that would hang his killers. He looked at the kid and saw the hatred in his face. I guess he realized no act of mercy would ever quench that hatred.
Finally, I think I'm going to have to stop reading comments here because as Jeremy mentions there are just too many spoilers or probable spoilers. Why have people given up the aesthetic pleasure of surprise? Movie trailers have really been bad about spoilers too. I've held off on reading the books just so I can fully enjoy the series.
10
Yes, The Starks keep getting their butts kicked but with the exception of Rob, all the children are still alive.
I believe that the Lord Commander, as in the past, has to kill someone who betrays the brotherhood. I forgot the character's name but this wasn't Snow's first kill for betrayal. That's part of the rules of being the Commander and he's not one to shuck duty though that was his last official act.
I'm okay with a little speculation, but I agree that too much kind of spoils the fun so I'll keep my speculation to myself as difficult as that may be.
I too enjoyed this episode especially Tyrion's attempt at lightening things, the layered conversation between the High Sparrow and Tommen, and Varys's threatening conversation with the woman who helped the Sons of the Harpy.
I know people love the action in this series but a lot goes on in those conversations that moves the plots forward and that require attention to truly understand such complex story lines.
Kudos to the producers for beginning each episode with events relevant to each new episode, not just the previous week's actions.
I believe that the Lord Commander, as in the past, has to kill someone who betrays the brotherhood. I forgot the character's name but this wasn't Snow's first kill for betrayal. That's part of the rules of being the Commander and he's not one to shuck duty though that was his last official act.
I'm okay with a little speculation, but I agree that too much kind of spoils the fun so I'll keep my speculation to myself as difficult as that may be.
I too enjoyed this episode especially Tyrion's attempt at lightening things, the layered conversation between the High Sparrow and Tommen, and Varys's threatening conversation with the woman who helped the Sons of the Harpy.
I know people love the action in this series but a lot goes on in those conversations that moves the plots forward and that require attention to truly understand such complex story lines.
Kudos to the producers for beginning each episode with events relevant to each new episode, not just the previous week's actions.
4
@ MMB — It was Janos Slynt, former commander of the City Watch of King’s Landing, that Jon beheaded, in scarcely more than his first day on the job as Lord Commander, for flagrant and repeated disregard of Jon’s direct orders. (“High Sparrow,” season 5.)
— Brian
— Brian
1
This show is losing it's edge of originality. Everything feels predictable, slow, and the same. I love this show, but I'm left feeling unsatisfied with all the story lines. I fear the climax may come too slowly. Like a book you continue reading out of obligation but no joy.
3
Maybe Ramsay will kill Umber and keep Rickon. Does he really need Umber? Ramsay thinks he can take Castle Black with a few men. He may feel he doesn't need Umber. And maybe he'll slice bits off of Rickon in an attempt you get Sansa to return to Winterfell.
3
I'm not clear on when Stark's freehold got rebuilt. That seems to have occurred in very little time from burned edifice to original edifice with the flayed man Sigyl
7
These plots lines better start converging. 3 minutes per character is very unsatisfying.
10
It wouldn't feel right for all these arcs to converge into a single grand finale; real life doesn't work that way, and neither does Thrones, narrative convention be damned.
One thing I'm still struggling with is why there wasn't a big debriefing after some men of the Night's Watch, but not all, returned from Hardhome?
Jon Snow et al still haven't told everyone who wasn't there what they saw, at least they haven't on screen, and no ravens were sent out with the simple message of "Set aside you petty bickering people, this is about to get real".
And who were some of those people that weren't at Hardhome? Well Olly for one and Ser Allister for another. The two people that were primarily responsible for the assassination of Jon Snow.
Don't get me wrong, I like the show, but I think this was a huge plot hole in the story line.
Jon Snow et al still haven't told everyone who wasn't there what they saw, at least they haven't on screen, and no ravens were sent out with the simple message of "Set aside you petty bickering people, this is about to get real".
And who were some of those people that weren't at Hardhome? Well Olly for one and Ser Allister for another. The two people that were primarily responsible for the assassination of Jon Snow.
Don't get me wrong, I like the show, but I think this was a huge plot hole in the story line.
19
In my opinion it should be assumed that obviously the second they got got back that all brothers of the nights watch were told what happened at Hardhome. plot hole filled. that was just a stupid thing to say.
4
Save your petty, little insults for Reddit peasant.
Nothing about the return from that battle made sense. You don't have a game-changing event like that happen and then leave it completely up in the air as to whether anyone said anything about it to anyone. You have Jon Snow come back and either make a big, heartrending speech about it or be so demoralized that he can't talk about it but you don't just skip over the aftermath. I've been waiting for GoT to win back my faith after that huge blunder, but so far it hasn't.
Nothing about the return from that battle made sense. You don't have a game-changing event like that happen and then leave it completely up in the air as to whether anyone said anything about it to anyone. You have Jon Snow come back and either make a big, heartrending speech about it or be so demoralized that he can't talk about it but you don't just skip over the aftermath. I've been waiting for GoT to win back my faith after that huge blunder, but so far it hasn't.
3
Setting aside petty bickering — claims of insults, versus “stupid” carping about exposition — it’s fair to argue it was an artistic mistake not to show Jon’s official debriefing for the Castle Black garrison, on the catastrophic events at Hardhome, and on the horrific threat of the host of the dead Beyond the Wall, which compelled his unprecedented decision to open the gate to the wildlings, and allow them south of the Wall.
We did see in “Mother’s Mercy,” the last episode of season 5, Jon describing privately to Sam how, after the massacre at Hardhome, the Night King had raised his arms, and the fallen wildlings rose, an army of tens of thousands of new wights. But Sam doesn’t act as if he’s hearing the news of Hardhome for the very first time. The sense of the scene is that Jon is filling in details of the story for his friend, after delivering a broad summary of the events to the whole garrison.
But ’Kid’s claim that this ellipsis is a “plot hole” presumes that, if we weren’t shown it, it must not have happened. That reasoning is akin to the problematic maxim, “Expressio unius est exclusio alterius” — that is, specific mention of one thing in a “class” excludes all other things that •aren’t• specifically mentioned.
In this case, however, while failing to show any scene of that debriefing may not have been wise, it doesn’t compel an inference that it didn’t happen. For that reason, ’Kid’s argument that the omission created a “plot hole” is not persuasive.
— Brian
We did see in “Mother’s Mercy,” the last episode of season 5, Jon describing privately to Sam how, after the massacre at Hardhome, the Night King had raised his arms, and the fallen wildlings rose, an army of tens of thousands of new wights. But Sam doesn’t act as if he’s hearing the news of Hardhome for the very first time. The sense of the scene is that Jon is filling in details of the story for his friend, after delivering a broad summary of the events to the whole garrison.
But ’Kid’s claim that this ellipsis is a “plot hole” presumes that, if we weren’t shown it, it must not have happened. That reasoning is akin to the problematic maxim, “Expressio unius est exclusio alterius” — that is, specific mention of one thing in a “class” excludes all other things that •aren’t• specifically mentioned.
In this case, however, while failing to show any scene of that debriefing may not have been wise, it doesn’t compel an inference that it didn’t happen. For that reason, ’Kid’s argument that the omission created a “plot hole” is not persuasive.
— Brian
1
Okay. Glad Olly got hung out to die. Ungrateful brat!
I'm hoping that Melisandra's new power does not prevent her from baring her, uh....soul in future episodes.
Ramsay in a position to do the same thing he did to Sansa to Rikon?
John Snow walking through the tunnel....to join the Wildlings?
When does Drogon rescue mom?
What will the trained assassin Arya do in this mix? King's Landing (versus Mountainstein or Winterfell versus Ramsay?)
And hints that the Hound might NOT be dead........
I'm hoping that Melisandra's new power does not prevent her from baring her, uh....soul in future episodes.
Ramsay in a position to do the same thing he did to Sansa to Rikon?
John Snow walking through the tunnel....to join the Wildlings?
When does Drogon rescue mom?
What will the trained assassin Arya do in this mix? King's Landing (versus Mountainstein or Winterfell versus Ramsay?)
And hints that the Hound might NOT be dead........
12
I'm looking for hints regarding whether Syrio Forel is still alive or not.
10
Arya will not become Zatoichi. Speaking of a single warrior who wipes out scores of opponents who come at them one at a time, Ser Arthur got exactly what he deserved. Nothing dishonorable about having superior numbers and attacking from all sides at once.
4
Daenerys definitely looked more womanly than girly to me too. The incongruity between the weight gain and her long grueling walk may just have to do with Emilia Clarke's real life intruding into the role than anything they're doing intentionally... unless they're throwing another pregnancy for her into the mix!
4
We did not see any change in Clarke at all. We did notice Kit Harrington's receding hairline - even without Mel's barbering last week, there's something bad happening to his hair!
4
what? her arms are fat.
Does anyone else have the sense that Jon's handling of things immediately after the execution was, in a way, betrayal of loyal Edd, who pretty much kept things together and went after the Wildling cavalry while Jon was "out"?
I would have felt better with a little more conversation there and a little less in Meereen. Edd needs to know that he's not being left to hold the bag, that Jon knows he can do the job, that Jon appreciates what he did. I know Jon is still out of it and can't be held to the old Jon standards but still...
I think Edd has been left hanging, with possible resentment and rebellion within the ranks, the situation north of the wall no less menacing, and Jon Snow, Lord Commander of the Night Watch, back from the dead, executing the ringleaders of his own assassination squad, then handing his cloak to Edd (no vote?), and striding out of Castle Black with the words "My watch is ended" his only explanation.
I would have felt better with a little more conversation there and a little less in Meereen. Edd needs to know that he's not being left to hold the bag, that Jon knows he can do the job, that Jon appreciates what he did. I know Jon is still out of it and can't be held to the old Jon standards but still...
I think Edd has been left hanging, with possible resentment and rebellion within the ranks, the situation north of the wall no less menacing, and Jon Snow, Lord Commander of the Night Watch, back from the dead, executing the ringleaders of his own assassination squad, then handing his cloak to Edd (no vote?), and striding out of Castle Black with the words "My watch is ended" his only explanation.
5
It seemed the appropriate time for Jon to do his own walkabout/trek/voyage as other Stark offspring have done.
6
Awww, refraining from potential spoilers takes all the fun out of this, but ok. The only way I can endure Ramsay Bolton's continued success is to fantasize about his ultimate comeuppance. A dire wolf apperitif (as loosely foretold by daddy Roos just before Ramsay gutted him)? A girl has no name, but who better to give Ramsay a taste of his own medicine? Walder Frey (not to revenge the grisly murder of his daughter, but because Ramsay thwarted his own ambitions)? The increasingly hardened Sansa Stark or her new protector Brienne of Tarth? Jon "Who's Your Daddy" Snow? Wun Weg Wun Dar Wun (but please, nothing so quick as the way you disposed of that pesky crossbowman in Episode 2)? Someone from one of the northern royal families (who knew that they were such a Machiavellianlot with interesting sexual preferences and patricidal tendencies)? While this last one seems farfetched right now, remember that George R.R. Martin drew inspiration from the War of the Roses, so Ramsay getting the Richard III treatment by having his northern "allies" turn on him on the battlefield seems as plausible (though not particularly satisfying) as any other form of (fervently hoped for) comeuppance. But for now, give Ramsay his due: has a creepier, more sinister and threatening "Welcome home" ever been uttered? Poor Rickon and Osha, out of the frying pan and into the fire (one hopes not literally, but you can't put anything past Ramsay).
24
More on the spoiler issue: It's a tricky balance and the line between what is and isn't a spoiler keeps moving, as more of the story unfolds onscreen. Obviously at this point we're largely beyond the books, so most things are speculative anyway.
Basically I'm just asking people to be judicious and base their speculating, which is a big part of the fun of "Game of Thrones" fandom, I realize, on things they've observed in the show itself. If someone wants to Google "R+L=J" and delve into all of that, great. But I'm trying to also respect those who prefer to learn everything via the actual episodes.
I freely admit that I don't know the best approach to this issue and there's no perfect policy on what should and should not be allowed in this context. (Nor do I have any interest in being some hard-nosed comment cop.) I'm just trying to keep this space enjoyable for as many people as possible.
Basically I'm just asking people to be judicious and base their speculating, which is a big part of the fun of "Game of Thrones" fandom, I realize, on things they've observed in the show itself. If someone wants to Google "R+L=J" and delve into all of that, great. But I'm trying to also respect those who prefer to learn everything via the actual episodes.
I freely admit that I don't know the best approach to this issue and there's no perfect policy on what should and should not be allowed in this context. (Nor do I have any interest in being some hard-nosed comment cop.) I'm just trying to keep this space enjoyable for as many people as possible.
22
I really like the "Richard III" plot twist you suggest. It actually makes sense that something like that would happen. A number of Richard's "allies" had really just been waiting back to see who seemed to be winning, then joined that side. I could see Umber or Frey doing that.
3
I think the umbers will betray ramsey. rickon and osha are part of that joining ramsey plot too. shaggy dog's "head" was a bit small. maybe it is a fake one
1
On rethinking this, there are still great scenes within each episode and I thought the hanging was one here. Alliser Thorne's last words were phenomenal, I thought, and really spoke to his strength of character. He seemed to be a bad guy before, but as he said, he never disobeyed an order, and always kept his oath of the Watch. He really did see Jon Snow as a traitor, and thought he was in the right. And his determination to do it all over again even ending with him being hanged was pretty impressive.
That said, I thought it was odd that they did the hanging wrong. Ideally, when you hang someone, you drop them at least six feet, that way the spine breaks and they die right away. The way they did it here was to let them strangle instead, and that's much more vicious, takes a lot longer. Maybe it's intentional though, because it's a pretty sadistic world.
That said, I thought it was odd that they did the hanging wrong. Ideally, when you hang someone, you drop them at least six feet, that way the spine breaks and they die right away. The way they did it here was to let them strangle instead, and that's much more vicious, takes a lot longer. Maybe it's intentional though, because it's a pretty sadistic world.
8
Disagree about Ser Alliser. He betrayed the Lord Commander who is the embodiment of the Night's Watch. His opinion that letting the wildings south was wrong did not trump his duty. The Night Watch mission statement is to protect the realm from the north, not to stop wildings.
12
@ Dan — The form of hanging depicted in the episode makes sense, if we understand that the hypothetical historical period of the GOT world is mostly an amalgamation of features of medieval, Byzantine, and renaissance societies.
The Castle Black hangings were depicted as using the “short drop” method. This was the prevalent method of hanging in Europe, and areas settled by Europeans, until pretty recently. The condemned prisoner, with the noose around his neck, stood on a surface that was moved away, leaving him dangling from the rope after a drop of not more than a couple feet.
As you noted, such a drop is ordinarily not sufficient to break the neck, or render the condemned immediately unconscious; the prisoner usually dies slowly of strangulation, which may take as long as ten to twenty minutes. It can be a prolonged and agonizing death, but the short drop was the standard method in Western countries before about 1850.
It seems that you were expecting the Watch instead to use the “standard drop” — adopted first in Britain in 1866, on the recommendation of an Irish doctor, Samuel Haughton — or its refinement, the “long drop” (also known as the “measured drop”), which was introduced to Britain in 1872 by William Marwood.
Since the long drop method was not introduced until well into the industrial revolution, it is entirely appropriate that the GOT world uses the short drop; indeed, it would have been anomalous to depict a hanging using the long drop.
— Brian
The Castle Black hangings were depicted as using the “short drop” method. This was the prevalent method of hanging in Europe, and areas settled by Europeans, until pretty recently. The condemned prisoner, with the noose around his neck, stood on a surface that was moved away, leaving him dangling from the rope after a drop of not more than a couple feet.
As you noted, such a drop is ordinarily not sufficient to break the neck, or render the condemned immediately unconscious; the prisoner usually dies slowly of strangulation, which may take as long as ten to twenty minutes. It can be a prolonged and agonizing death, but the short drop was the standard method in Western countries before about 1850.
It seems that you were expecting the Watch instead to use the “standard drop” — adopted first in Britain in 1866, on the recommendation of an Irish doctor, Samuel Haughton — or its refinement, the “long drop” (also known as the “measured drop”), which was introduced to Britain in 1872 by William Marwood.
Since the long drop method was not introduced until well into the industrial revolution, it is entirely appropriate that the GOT world uses the short drop; indeed, it would have been anomalous to depict a hanging using the long drop.
— Brian
4
Dear Kent Karlson,
I understand that perspective too, but I think he felt that the Lord Commander had committed treason, since he was so hard-headed about the wildings. I don't see Thorne as having been in the right or anything, I just enjoyed that he was not a standard evil badguy, not trying to gain for himself or even get revenge. Just saw his duty differently than others did, and was carrying out his notion of honor.
Dear Brian,
Thanks actually that clears things up completely, and you're right, the long drop would have been out of place, as would a guillotine and so forth.
I understand that perspective too, but I think he felt that the Lord Commander had committed treason, since he was so hard-headed about the wildings. I don't see Thorne as having been in the right or anything, I just enjoyed that he was not a standard evil badguy, not trying to gain for himself or even get revenge. Just saw his duty differently than others did, and was carrying out his notion of honor.
Dear Brian,
Thanks actually that clears things up completely, and you're right, the long drop would have been out of place, as would a guillotine and so forth.
2
Spoiler Alert!:
Regarding Bran's vision: In Book one, Ned reflects upon that fight with the three King's guard and finding his sister dying on a bed of blood while clutching rose petals (which she's fond of). Later, in either book three or, maybe, book five, Danny sees a blue rose growing out of the ice at the wall at some point during a stream of prophetic visions during her trial in the House of the Undying.
As an aside, Ned was initially in love with Lady Ashara Dayne (and she with he) Ser Arthur Dayne's sister, but their hopes were crushed when "the mad King" murdered Ned's father and brother Brandon Stark (the original heir) which left Ned the heir and by law and custom dictated that he now honor the marriage pact made between house Stark and house Tully, which is how he ended up with Lady Catelyn, his brother's betrothed... and then it was REALLY over after fate (Robert's rebellion) led to him crossing swords with (and "killing") Ashara's beloved brother (Ser Arthur Dayne). She committed suicide after that.
Regarding Bran's vision: In Book one, Ned reflects upon that fight with the three King's guard and finding his sister dying on a bed of blood while clutching rose petals (which she's fond of). Later, in either book three or, maybe, book five, Danny sees a blue rose growing out of the ice at the wall at some point during a stream of prophetic visions during her trial in the House of the Undying.
As an aside, Ned was initially in love with Lady Ashara Dayne (and she with he) Ser Arthur Dayne's sister, but their hopes were crushed when "the mad King" murdered Ned's father and brother Brandon Stark (the original heir) which left Ned the heir and by law and custom dictated that he now honor the marriage pact made between house Stark and house Tully, which is how he ended up with Lady Catelyn, his brother's betrothed... and then it was REALLY over after fate (Robert's rebellion) led to him crossing swords with (and "killing") Ashara's beloved brother (Ser Arthur Dayne). She committed suicide after that.
11
I really wish the "Tower of Joy" scene was finished in this episode. Or at least it seemed that way last night. I was hoping they would get back to it as the final scene, but now we have to wait another week for the inevitable. It just feels like it's kind of dragging and these major issues need to get cleared up already so the plot can move forward.
5
We've been told that Jon knows nothing.
Now we come to find out he sees nothing either.
Now we come to find out he sees nothing either.
5
I agree with many that this episode was painfully disappointing, though after two great ones, perhaps we're due. The history of the show and certainly the books should prepare us for boring tangents, but that won't stop me from complaining about them!
I think my least favorite is Arya's - truly don't care - don't want her to forget her name and definitely don't want to watch the process for weeks on end. Second is Dany's - without dragons, suitors or interaction with Tyrion, her "adventures" and her attitude bore me. Looks like her rescuers may be coming for her next week - let's hope.
Third is Meereen - "what shall we talk about?" indeed!
But it wasn't all bad, of course. I'm thrilled to have BOTH the two young Starks back - has been too long. With Sansa and now Jon roaming the area, the North is getting VERY interesting. And of course there's all the good stuff from the previous generation that we are learning with Bran. (I think it's odd that Jeremy doesn't want us to discuss Lyanna theories - why?!)
I find it preposterous what is going on King's Landing and I'm happy to see that we might FINALLY get some Lannister muscle flexing. And though the Small Council meeting was a huge bore, I'm very happy to see Grandma Tyrell back - hopefully she'll get Margaery out and we'll see more of their plotting vs. Cersei.
I'd like to know what's going on in Dorne. And believe it or not, I look forward to Sam's studies of White Walkers ("if only we had some dragons!").
I think my least favorite is Arya's - truly don't care - don't want her to forget her name and definitely don't want to watch the process for weeks on end. Second is Dany's - without dragons, suitors or interaction with Tyrion, her "adventures" and her attitude bore me. Looks like her rescuers may be coming for her next week - let's hope.
Third is Meereen - "what shall we talk about?" indeed!
But it wasn't all bad, of course. I'm thrilled to have BOTH the two young Starks back - has been too long. With Sansa and now Jon roaming the area, the North is getting VERY interesting. And of course there's all the good stuff from the previous generation that we are learning with Bran. (I think it's odd that Jeremy doesn't want us to discuss Lyanna theories - why?!)
I find it preposterous what is going on King's Landing and I'm happy to see that we might FINALLY get some Lannister muscle flexing. And though the Small Council meeting was a huge bore, I'm very happy to see Grandma Tyrell back - hopefully she'll get Margaery out and we'll see more of their plotting vs. Cersei.
I'd like to know what's going on in Dorne. And believe it or not, I look forward to Sam's studies of White Walkers ("if only we had some dragons!").
7
Is it me, or has Daenerys put on some weight? How can she have managed that while slogging through the long march toward her custody in the Khals' Wives Club?
Jon Snow having died has fulfilled his oath to a lifelong commitment to the Black Watch. Now that he has a 'new life', surely he is not bound to commitments made in his former life, no? (Also, I can't believe that he's actually walking away from Melisandre.)
I keep hoping that Tommen will morph into a more aggressive version of Cersei's dark side. Why didn't he stab the High Sparrow when he had the chance. What a wuss...
Jon Snow having died has fulfilled his oath to a lifelong commitment to the Black Watch. Now that he has a 'new life', surely he is not bound to commitments made in his former life, no? (Also, I can't believe that he's actually walking away from Melisandre.)
I keep hoping that Tommen will morph into a more aggressive version of Cersei's dark side. Why didn't he stab the High Sparrow when he had the chance. What a wuss...
8
Is it me, or are you concerned about Dany's weight gain over the course of a few weeks, but say nothing about Sam's retained girth over 6 seasons at the Wall?
18
C'mon, man, I thought Sam looked a little slimmer. I mean, not a lot, but maybe a few lbs.
2
I was thinking how beautiful she looked. To be honest she's the dragon queen why can't she slog miles and still look voluptuous.
Cass
Cass
2
I do like this show, the scenery and the Machiavellian machinations and all are great. But it seems to be getting more discombobulated all the time.
The big thing for me, is while the sword fight was an excellent scene, what the heck does it have to do with anything and why should we care? Everyone in it is long dead. If Bran really can affect the past and change history, are we going to have all of this undone and have him seat Ned Stark on the throne, a la "Dallas"? What's with the weird looking gal in their tree-cave-fort, like a dryad or something? Hodor could talk at some point and was named Willard Scott or something... so what? How does that matter at all?
So I'm looking forward to the High Sparrow getting his comeuppance, and Dany getting broken out of the convent by dragons or her doughty knights, and Tyrion doing something, anything at all really. But this season, unlike all the previous ones, I'm really having to grasp at straws for things to care about.
I think it would have been awesome if they'd had Arya drink the poison and simply keel over dead, because she wasn't quite nameless enough. Predictably, that could never happen.
Also it's annoying how the white walkers seem to be taking a long vacation, and the dragons rarely do anything (they've killed nobody this season and mainly seem to be hiding out).
So I dunno, I'll watch this til the end, but they'd better not make it all undone by Bran's time travelling, and they'd better have a good finale.
The big thing for me, is while the sword fight was an excellent scene, what the heck does it have to do with anything and why should we care? Everyone in it is long dead. If Bran really can affect the past and change history, are we going to have all of this undone and have him seat Ned Stark on the throne, a la "Dallas"? What's with the weird looking gal in their tree-cave-fort, like a dryad or something? Hodor could talk at some point and was named Willard Scott or something... so what? How does that matter at all?
So I'm looking forward to the High Sparrow getting his comeuppance, and Dany getting broken out of the convent by dragons or her doughty knights, and Tyrion doing something, anything at all really. But this season, unlike all the previous ones, I'm really having to grasp at straws for things to care about.
I think it would have been awesome if they'd had Arya drink the poison and simply keel over dead, because she wasn't quite nameless enough. Predictably, that could never happen.
Also it's annoying how the white walkers seem to be taking a long vacation, and the dragons rarely do anything (they've killed nobody this season and mainly seem to be hiding out).
So I dunno, I'll watch this til the end, but they'd better not make it all undone by Bran's time travelling, and they'd better have a good finale.
17
There are many people alive right now who have lived through multiple winters, but no one has lived through a White Walker Winter-- with dragons.
Sam and Tyrion have been busy their whole lives soaking up the written sources that hearken back to the last time such an era transpired. Sam is going off to become a Maester (assuming he survives his father, who could have him executed for breaking his oath, since he's away from the wall and claiming a wife and son-- more than Ned Stark had to go on when he executed the brother who was the first to bring word of the White Walkers south of the wall), Tyrion is going to use his knowledge of dragons and other arcane information to help Danni learn to wield them in war (I think) and become a great queen.
Bran's gift of actually being able to SEE the past and not just read about it augment their "book knowledge" and I think makes him more important in the upcoming fight against the dark forces in the north than all the skillful sword play of all the bravest knights of Westeros and the Dothraki combined, in this coming fight against those powers that would destroy the world.
Sam and Tyrion have been busy their whole lives soaking up the written sources that hearken back to the last time such an era transpired. Sam is going off to become a Maester (assuming he survives his father, who could have him executed for breaking his oath, since he's away from the wall and claiming a wife and son-- more than Ned Stark had to go on when he executed the brother who was the first to bring word of the White Walkers south of the wall), Tyrion is going to use his knowledge of dragons and other arcane information to help Danni learn to wield them in war (I think) and become a great queen.
Bran's gift of actually being able to SEE the past and not just read about it augment their "book knowledge" and I think makes him more important in the upcoming fight against the dark forces in the north than all the skillful sword play of all the bravest knights of Westeros and the Dothraki combined, in this coming fight against those powers that would destroy the world.
5
Sam is obeying the command of the Lord Commander of the Night's Watch to become a Maester and protecting a wilding woman and his child. No real grounds for execution there.
4
Dear Dan,
You make good points, but the thing about what Bran is seeing, is it has nothing to do with anything relevant, no mention of white walkers, dragons, giants, and there's not even any actual knowledge in the scenes he sees that would be of use. So his dad defeated a great knight by one of his buddies stabbing the guy in the back... so what? Tells us nothing useful, and like I say, everyone he sees is long dead anyway.
You make good points, but the thing about what Bran is seeing, is it has nothing to do with anything relevant, no mention of white walkers, dragons, giants, and there's not even any actual knowledge in the scenes he sees that would be of use. So his dad defeated a great knight by one of his buddies stabbing the guy in the back... so what? Tells us nothing useful, and like I say, everyone he sees is long dead anyway.
God I hope the Umbers are pulling an Abel and his washerwomen with Rickon and Osha. I'd love even a hint of complexity in plotting in this show. They say the show is complex, but it really isn't. Sociopolitical complexities are reduced to literal backstabbing, have been since the Season 2 Qarth storyline, and all the clever conversations in the world can't hide the boring sameness of it all anymore—even Tyrion in character knows it. Blades through the throat are the show's neeps and nuncles.
I still watch it because I want to see if my predictions about Jon, Dany and Tyrion come true.
I still watch it because I want to see if my predictions about Jon, Dany and Tyrion come true.
11
Dude, that's what I told my boyfriend, that I think something is up with Rickon and Osha. First of all, in the past Osha hasn't gotten caught unless she wanted to. Secondly, the head of Summer seemed a bit small for a dire wolf, especially when you think of Grey Wind's head - imposter?
And then there is the fact that the guards were pissed about Ramsay killing his father. Pushed a bit too hard?
But maybe I am getting carried away?
And then there is the fact that the guards were pissed about Ramsay killing his father. Pushed a bit too hard?
But maybe I am getting carried away?
6
Whoops, realized I got the dire wolves mixed up. Meant Shaggydog.
1
I hope they follow a mention in the books. In the books Roose mentions that the Umbers are not without a certain low cunning and then there is a boy named Wex who survived the sack of winterfell. Wex was found by Manderly and convinced him of the truth concerning Ramsay's involvement in the destruction of Winterfell. When Davis first sees him he thinks for a second that Wex is a stark but notes he is too old. It would be a great twist
My compliments to the author.
The quality of your writing is greatly appreciated.
The quality of your writing is greatly appreciated.
16
In the sense of starting a new "religion" or becoming a "holy warrior," no, Jon is not a Christ figure. But his resurrection, his unclear parentage, his sense of power, now his wounds, and Harington's shaggy look are all Christ images. The fact that the afterlife Jon "saw" was dark and full of nothing doesn't nullify all the other supranormal events, characters, references, etc., we've seen throughout the series. There may well be reasons why Jon saw nothing (to go with his "knows nothing"?)--reasons known by the Lord of Light or some other deity concocted by Martin.
15
What I really dislike about the way the show is structured is the fact that characters seemingly appear and disappear from the storyline at random.
Ellaria Sand and the Sand Snakes have not been seen on screen since they murdered Myrcella.
After some interesting action in the Iron Islands last week, nothing this week.
But all of a sudden Sam and Gilly get a scene out of nowhere...
The producers need to pick a few plot lines and stick with them, not randomly jump back and forth every episode....
Ellaria Sand and the Sand Snakes have not been seen on screen since they murdered Myrcella.
After some interesting action in the Iron Islands last week, nothing this week.
But all of a sudden Sam and Gilly get a scene out of nowhere...
The producers need to pick a few plot lines and stick with them, not randomly jump back and forth every episode....
8
Sand Snakes stay out of sight until they strike. Ellaria Sand appears to be as set on revenge as Cersie Lannister. I think things are being set up for this to play out. And Bronn will have to choose between a boring life of luxury (maybe) because he sold out Tyrion (kind of) or getting with Tyene Sand who is a very exciting alternative and has left him with a lot to think about.
8
Perhaps we are all viewing it through the eyes of Bran Stark and that's why it's all seemingly mixed up.
Maybe that's the very final thing we will see. Like 'it was all a dream'
Maybe that's the very final thing we will see. Like 'it was all a dream'
1
Also, nobody in King's Landing has mentioned the fact that they sent Meryn Trant to Braavos and he wound up mutilated in a brothel. Or that Dorne, one of the Seven Kingdoms, is utterly without Martells for the first time in centuries. La-dee-dah, la-dee-dah....
It's only a matter of time before Jon Snow winds up leading a Northern Alliance - but first he needs to deal with that homicidal maniac Ramsey Snow. And wouldn't it be delish if we found out that these two Snows came from the same family? Oh joy.
4
I just have added "Greyjoy." :)
It would/will be poetic justice for Ghost to tear Ramsey to pieces when the time comes.
13
I'm curious about your thought that Jon Snow and Ramsey Snow came from the same family? How would that have occurred? Which family?
2
I think there are just too many subplots going on this season. I hope over the course of these episodes, some of them are resolved so we can move back to more focus on the main threads and less time spent on three or four different discussions of what's going on in Meereen in Dany's absence.
In respect of your last comment, I will refrain from getting into my favorite personal theory about Lyanna -- but I'll admit to wondering why you've asked us not to discuss that here. At this point, isn't it all speculation or do the books provide more details about her than has been revealed in the show to this point?
In respect of your last comment, I will refrain from getting into my favorite personal theory about Lyanna -- but I'll admit to wondering why you've asked us not to discuss that here. At this point, isn't it all speculation or do the books provide more details about her than has been revealed in the show to this point?
3
I think Meereen/Vaes Dothrak sets up the entry of the dragons as major players so it's worth it.
7
As the Comic Book Guy on the Simpsons would say "Worst episode ever."
Seriously, Tyrion has a 5-minute scene where he talks about how he has nothing to talk about. I mean seriously, have Tyrion read some interesting book of Valyrian history aloud or something, even world-building would have been better than literally talking about nothing. Then Varys comes in and they come up with a plan... which they don't talk about on-screen.
The small council has a meeting where they reach a decision... to schedule another meeting! What is the name of this show, Game of Bureaucratic Inefficiency?
Rickon is captured and betrayed by the Umbers and his direwolf is killed... off-screen. That would have been interesting to see, right? Rickon, again, has no lines in the show.
Gilly and Sam discuss perhaps going somewhere, but they leave the decision for later. They get nowhere, but we're reminded that they exist. Anybody remember who the father of that baby is?
I don't blame the showwriters. The problem isn't that they've departed from the books, because the books were just as bad with long, drawn out plotlines that go nowhere. Usually the show improved on the story (like Brienne getting to actually meet the Stark girls she's looking for and fighting characters we care about). The problem is lack of discipline from the producers. I can just imagine them sitting around a table:
DBW: "I can't think of what Tyrion should be talking about"
DB: "Genius! This stuff just writes itself..."
Seriously, Tyrion has a 5-minute scene where he talks about how he has nothing to talk about. I mean seriously, have Tyrion read some interesting book of Valyrian history aloud or something, even world-building would have been better than literally talking about nothing. Then Varys comes in and they come up with a plan... which they don't talk about on-screen.
The small council has a meeting where they reach a decision... to schedule another meeting! What is the name of this show, Game of Bureaucratic Inefficiency?
Rickon is captured and betrayed by the Umbers and his direwolf is killed... off-screen. That would have been interesting to see, right? Rickon, again, has no lines in the show.
Gilly and Sam discuss perhaps going somewhere, but they leave the decision for later. They get nowhere, but we're reminded that they exist. Anybody remember who the father of that baby is?
I don't blame the showwriters. The problem isn't that they've departed from the books, because the books were just as bad with long, drawn out plotlines that go nowhere. Usually the show improved on the story (like Brienne getting to actually meet the Stark girls she's looking for and fighting characters we care about). The problem is lack of discipline from the producers. I can just imagine them sitting around a table:
DBW: "I can't think of what Tyrion should be talking about"
DB: "Genius! This stuff just writes itself..."
32
The father of Gilly's baby is her own father, that despicable Craster. Which is why she'd rather Sam be called the father of her baby.
I totally agree with you on Tyrion's scene. When he started to talk about having nothing to talk about all I could think was "WE ONLY GET TEN EPISODES A YEAR! DON'T WASTE MY TIME!"
I totally agree with you on Tyrion's scene. When he started to talk about having nothing to talk about all I could think was "WE ONLY GET TEN EPISODES A YEAR! DON'T WASTE MY TIME!"
16
Yes - do blame the show writers. Our young new acolytes sitting around the writing room at HBO, minus their guru Martin, are as confused as many of the characters.
No - Tyrion should not have been onscreen (seemingly forever), lamenting the lack of conversation with two half-literate ex-slaves. Why is he still there anyway- why doesn't he high-tail it back to where the action is- to his loving sis?
No - Daenarys should not be stuck, again, with the horse-leather boys.
Why engage in time-travel when the situation on the ground is complex enough?
And so on !
Please send the HBO pups to a basic screenwritng class or two at USC....
No - Tyrion should not have been onscreen (seemingly forever), lamenting the lack of conversation with two half-literate ex-slaves. Why is he still there anyway- why doesn't he high-tail it back to where the action is- to his loving sis?
No - Daenarys should not be stuck, again, with the horse-leather boys.
Why engage in time-travel when the situation on the ground is complex enough?
And so on !
Please send the HBO pups to a basic screenwritng class or two at USC....
9
Cersei still has a bounty on Tyrion - a fortune for his head. He cannot go back to King's Landing until Cersei and Jamie (and Tommen) are out of power.
3
Tyrion let loose two dragons in the last episode, and now they've got nothing to talk about? I could have done with a little firestorm action somewhere... but I'll wait for it because I'm sure it's a given.
The Rickon/Umber plot line is interesting. As another comment mentions, this could be a trap. The Umbers were loyal to the Starks - the Freys still hold the Greatjon hostage and they killed Smalljon at the Red Wedding. But whatever is going on, that scene was great... not bending the knee, and all.
Jon Snow had a shock... I'll give him a week to figure it out. But one thing is certain - he didn't develop a malleable sense of justice while hanging out in the nothingness. A meet-up with Sansa and Brienne is imminent. After he takes Winterfell, he'll reunite the North. Ultimately, he'll end up in the South. And I believe we'll learn both who his parents - and sibling (full-blooded) - were.
Bran's story... he's learning things, but I'm not sure where that leads him. He isn't going to sit under that tree forever. He will be integral in the battle with the Others... I'm just not sure how yet.
Arya is about to get her journeyman card. Her time in Bravos is almost up. I think it's likely she will end up with Daenerys, and then ultimately back in Westeros whenever they make the leap...maybe even as member/leader of the Queen's guard.
The Lanisters aren't going anywhere until the end. Jaimie will survive...Tyrion will save him. I hope Tommen survives, but he won't.
The Rickon/Umber plot line is interesting. As another comment mentions, this could be a trap. The Umbers were loyal to the Starks - the Freys still hold the Greatjon hostage and they killed Smalljon at the Red Wedding. But whatever is going on, that scene was great... not bending the knee, and all.
Jon Snow had a shock... I'll give him a week to figure it out. But one thing is certain - he didn't develop a malleable sense of justice while hanging out in the nothingness. A meet-up with Sansa and Brienne is imminent. After he takes Winterfell, he'll reunite the North. Ultimately, he'll end up in the South. And I believe we'll learn both who his parents - and sibling (full-blooded) - were.
Bran's story... he's learning things, but I'm not sure where that leads him. He isn't going to sit under that tree forever. He will be integral in the battle with the Others... I'm just not sure how yet.
Arya is about to get her journeyman card. Her time in Bravos is almost up. I think it's likely she will end up with Daenerys, and then ultimately back in Westeros whenever they make the leap...maybe even as member/leader of the Queen's guard.
The Lanisters aren't going anywhere until the end. Jaimie will survive...Tyrion will save him. I hope Tommen survives, but he won't.
15
Most think the unchained dragons are still cooling their talons under the pyramid in Mereen. Seems to me that they had flyaway exits that they could have used. They might just show up in time for an retired Khaleesi roast.
3
That was Smalljon with Ramsay I thought. And he said Great job was dead (saying he'd have killed him if he had not died, although he may have been faking).
2
@ Larry — “And he said Great job was dead.”
A hitherto unknown relationship to Oddjob?!
(I know our keyboards often have a mind of their own. But the discipline to refrain, when given such an opening, is far beyond me . . . . I am, however, intrigued at Bond/GOT crossover possibilities, now that the topic is broached.)
— Brian
A hitherto unknown relationship to Oddjob?!
(I know our keyboards often have a mind of their own. But the discipline to refrain, when given such an opening, is far beyond me . . . . I am, however, intrigued at Bond/GOT crossover possibilities, now that the topic is broached.)
— Brian
I envy the posters who remember in detail what happened five seasons ago. I can't keep as good track of the real people in my life as this series is expecting me to do over a period of five years with its zillion characters.
Which is NOT to say I am ready to toss in my cards. I have certain characters I am invested in and fond hopes for their futures, and I will definitely stick around to find out just how wrong I was. It is a fool's game to have hope about anything in Westeros.
One thing I will never forgive, however: if we get to the end of the series and Tyrion has not ridden a dragon!
Which is NOT to say I am ready to toss in my cards. I have certain characters I am invested in and fond hopes for their futures, and I will definitely stick around to find out just how wrong I was. It is a fool's game to have hope about anything in Westeros.
One thing I will never forgive, however: if we get to the end of the series and Tyrion has not ridden a dragon!
10
LOL. I had to borrow my nephew's DVD sets about 10 times to start "remembering". So don't feel too bad. You apparently have a life.
This is the first season where I've actually signed up for HBO to watch, so I'm seeing each episode 10 times per week. Good for HBO, good for my nephew's DVD collection.
This is the first season where I've actually signed up for HBO to watch, so I'm seeing each episode 10 times per week. Good for HBO, good for my nephew's DVD collection.
8
Dan, your comment did me a good turn.
I was thinking that reviewing the episodes -- while useful for remembering who did what to whom and why -- would be such a *slog*. Sit through that inane "what shall we talk about?" scene again? I don't think so!
And then it occurred to me that HBO might actually allow me to fast forward through the show, bein' it as I PAY for it...and sure enough, unlike the commercial channels that require you to watch the ads, HBO lets you zip past whatever you want.
So I'm scheduling a refresher course for myself. Thanks!
I was thinking that reviewing the episodes -- while useful for remembering who did what to whom and why -- would be such a *slog*. Sit through that inane "what shall we talk about?" scene again? I don't think so!
And then it occurred to me that HBO might actually allow me to fast forward through the show, bein' it as I PAY for it...and sure enough, unlike the commercial channels that require you to watch the ads, HBO lets you zip past whatever you want.
So I'm scheduling a refresher course for myself. Thanks!
6
"...in a vote during Khalar Vezhven, which I envision as a nutty mash-up of Sturgis and Burning Man"
That's funny stuff Jeremy
Please don't tell me Sansa will arrive at Castle Black right after Jon is gone to ...wonder the Sinai desert for 40 days or whatever self finding mission he's going to go through.
That's funny stuff Jeremy
Please don't tell me Sansa will arrive at Castle Black right after Jon is gone to ...wonder the Sinai desert for 40 days or whatever self finding mission he's going to go through.
4
The Rickon plot line seems to be in here, yet again, for cheap shock value. I do hope we won't be treated to a season's worth of Ramsay having his way with him, it's so tiring to watch at this point. Was Sansa not enough?
8
I'm hoping Jon, Ghost, and Lady Melisandre are going to be getting all up in Ramsey's grill pretty soon now and when they do he has about as much time to plead his case as Uncle Jack had to plead his to Heisenberg at the end of 'Breaking Bad'.
9
Heck, going through that with Theon was more than enough, could easily have left us to assume Ramsay would keep being insanely sadistic to everyone in his clutches after that.
5
I am hoping that the Umbers are tricking Ramsay by giving him Rickon and Osha, and that they want to take back Winterfell. The fact that Lord Umber did not want to give an oath to Ramsay makes me hope that he did so as not to be labelled an oathbreaker when he kills him.
7
Really New York Times? I can't even scroll through the top stories of the day without having a spoiler for Game of Thrones thrown at me? if we're only reading the books and not watching the TV show we don't need to see what's going on with Jon Snow in the summary text as we scan over the days news. Boo on you NY Time for ruining this reader's efforts to keep the suspense of the books' narrative intact.
At the end of the day, no one should have the expectation that spoilers will be avoided. I literally maintained a social media blackout for almost a year, up until "Force Awakens" and, what do you know, I went into the screening Unsullied and with my hair uncut. Ultimately, the onus to avoid spoilers is on us.
"Do try and keep up, 007."
"Do try and keep up, 007."
3
There are no more books.
1
I thought the end of the Castle Black execution scene, with Jon tossing off the Lord Commander's cape and saying, "My watch has ended," was the zing moment of the episode. I don't know if we know for sure what the Umbers are up to. And Arya's character is really evolving. She is going to have some adventures again at last. So tired of her sweeping floors and training with broomsticks. She and her brother Bran have both been "in training" and are chomping at the bit to do something.
14
Interesting Bran stuff. And i for one agree that Jon Snow has fulfilled his duty to the Watch. Good for him as he trudged out for the Stark Revenge Tour. It should be good. Let's all hope they don't drag out an endless Khaleesi storyline all season. Where are the dragons? The one thing that may get me to stop watching is the whole Ramsey thing. I'm so tired of Ramsey. I feel like I keep getting hit over the head with him. He's a psycho , I get it! Geez. There's no depth to his character, just that exploitative craziness. And now another pair of victims for us to watch as he tortures them? That's lazy writing. I'll give it a couple more episodes, but if Ramsey isn't eliminated very quickly, i may give up GoT. It's just cheap shot exploitative writing with no purpose except base shock value. No art or creativity there.
16
If this were a true fantasy series (okay, my fantasy), Bronn would find Gendry and both would take on the High Sparrrow and his disciples. But they would save Lancel's demise to Jaime, who would shout, "A Lannister always pays his debts!" before piercing him through the Manson-style symbol on his forehead.
Tormund and his gang would find Sansa, Brienne and Podrick and all would crash the party at Winterfell. Naturally, Won Won would keep Ramsey for his pet plaything.
Jon and Dany (as bro & sis) rule Westeros together but without the gross Cersei/Jamie connection. Ser Devos and Tyrion sit on the small council.
Ghost kills all the White Walkers with the aid of Sam & Gilly. At the last moment, Nymeria joins in.
Again, my fantasy. But since it is my fantasy, I get to say Gendry one more time. Gendry.
Tormund and his gang would find Sansa, Brienne and Podrick and all would crash the party at Winterfell. Naturally, Won Won would keep Ramsey for his pet plaything.
Jon and Dany (as bro & sis) rule Westeros together but without the gross Cersei/Jamie connection. Ser Devos and Tyrion sit on the small council.
Ghost kills all the White Walkers with the aid of Sam & Gilly. At the last moment, Nymeria joins in.
Again, my fantasy. But since it is my fantasy, I get to say Gendry one more time. Gendry.
20
I too hope Gendry didn't fall in.
2
The dire wolves in Game of Thrones have not had a good run.
Poor Lady.
Poor Shaggydog.
Poor Grey Wind.
Go GHOST!
Run Nymeria!
Summer, where are you?
Of course main characters are always suffering gruesome ends in Game of Throne, but I personally always like to see the canines prevail.
Poor Lady.
Poor Shaggydog.
Poor Grey Wind.
Go GHOST!
Run Nymeria!
Summer, where are you?
Of course main characters are always suffering gruesome ends in Game of Throne, but I personally always like to see the canines prevail.
33
Agreed. I read the first couple of books years and years ago and the only thing I remembered from them was the direwolves. There are many, many more people I would prefer seeing killed off in this story rather than the rest of the wolves.
8
I do wonder whether Umber's handover over of Rickon is what it appears to be or is it a trick on Ramsey? The latter would be much more interesting - and satisfying.
13
This is exactly what I thought was going on when that whole thing occurred. Not only would making Rickon's reappearance a trick on Ramsay be way more interesting, it would bring us closer to the situation in the North in the books. In the novels, the only Northerners who can stand the Boltons are the Karstarks, the rest are in quiet rebellion and looking for Rickon.
5
+1 for theorycrafting and The Great Northern Conspiracy!
1
Apparently, Oathbreaker ( Jon ) is going to meet with Oathkeeper ( Brienne with Sansa ) in Oathland ( Winterfell where oaths are made and broken ).
As if Jon was not that interesting, now he has become that even more. Bound-breaking with the night's watchers, he seems to be embarked on a self-discovery path, for he has nothing to believe in anymore, "there's nothing in death", he could only find his true meaning in this life, which means to discover who he really is.
And that points exactly to Bran's vision of the past (the best subplot to follow by now). He apparently can make sounds and even change the past, but clearly at the cost of being trapped in there. No more change-shifting. Which is what Rickon and the wildling need at Ramsay's court to not end up as either Reek or dog's food. Yet, Ramsay was not entirely credible as he doesn't show a hint of sadness for Shaggydog, or maybe he hates direwolves, who knows?
Skipping Arya's brainwashing and Cersei's attempted new one ( she's the only caught up in melancholy for the past as Bron ), Daenerys seems up to another comeback ( the fourth one??! ), perhaps as commander of Dothrakis, you know, better allying with the masters of slaves you know ( and can control ). Sorry for the other widows's grim reality, but she has 3 dragons on her side (more or less). That of course would render her the Essos version of white walkers chief. Wild people are coming. Or so is the show inclined on, apart for reviewing the entire cast.
As if Jon was not that interesting, now he has become that even more. Bound-breaking with the night's watchers, he seems to be embarked on a self-discovery path, for he has nothing to believe in anymore, "there's nothing in death", he could only find his true meaning in this life, which means to discover who he really is.
And that points exactly to Bran's vision of the past (the best subplot to follow by now). He apparently can make sounds and even change the past, but clearly at the cost of being trapped in there. No more change-shifting. Which is what Rickon and the wildling need at Ramsay's court to not end up as either Reek or dog's food. Yet, Ramsay was not entirely credible as he doesn't show a hint of sadness for Shaggydog, or maybe he hates direwolves, who knows?
Skipping Arya's brainwashing and Cersei's attempted new one ( she's the only caught up in melancholy for the past as Bron ), Daenerys seems up to another comeback ( the fourth one??! ), perhaps as commander of Dothrakis, you know, better allying with the masters of slaves you know ( and can control ). Sorry for the other widows's grim reality, but she has 3 dragons on her side (more or less). That of course would render her the Essos version of white walkers chief. Wild people are coming. Or so is the show inclined on, apart for reviewing the entire cast.
5
I often wonder if we will go full circle in this saga and discover that Bran actually is the 3 eyed raven, sitting there waiting for time to catch up with himself after having been split apart for staying in the past a fraction too long. The older man giving counsel to the younger version of himself, so to speak, during the only opportunity that would ever be available, meaning a cross over of the time period when Bran went AWOL and when Bran sitting there waiting for the past to catch up lures him to the Weirwood Tree of the North.
5
I wish they'd stop killing off the animals. And I now have a nagging feeling that all the direwolves must die in order to keep the Stark children together and bring the saga to a close. (i.e. - the Stark children found them alive and rescued them; now the direwolves must rescue the children. I don't know. Maybe I'm reaching.)
6
Hodor.
14
Hodor! Hodor hodor, hodor hodor hodoriness hodor. Or that's what I think anyways.
3
Spam, Spam, Spam, Spam;
Spam, Spam, Spam, Spam . . . .
Spam, Spam, Spam, Spam . . . .
1
Just a note to the author: your reviews are almost as delightful as the show. I greatly look forward to reading these!
15
I'd like this page better if it just kept to the show without referencing internet rumors.
They're either 1) wrong or 2) spoilers. Bad either way. I don't need them to enjoy the show.
They're either 1) wrong or 2) spoilers. Bad either way. I don't need them to enjoy the show.
2
Tyrion (and Peter Decklage) is wasting away as a character who should be center stage. Meereen is perhaps the dullest plot thread of the entire series.
Based upon this one episode since his resurrection, Jon Stark appears just as befuddled as he was pre-stabbing. I truly think the problem is the actor, Kit Harrington, who has no expression beyond confusion. Even the four who were hanged had more drama in their faces in death as Jon has in life.
Based upon this one episode since his resurrection, Jon Stark appears just as befuddled as he was pre-stabbing. I truly think the problem is the actor, Kit Harrington, who has no expression beyond confusion. Even the four who were hanged had more drama in their faces in death as Jon has in life.
6
Jon Snow ...at least for now. ...
1
Rickon will be ok. Osha is more than able to protect him and will end up killing Ramsey.
5
Listening to the Sparrow talking to the young king, he almost had me converted. The guy is good - very good. But of course all that light, love an the will of the gods talk masks a drive to power and domination not a wit less intense than that of most of the other leading characters. Its a tack common to religious fanatics. I may be a bit prejudiced in this regard myself but I have a feeling the Sparrow may be the most evil person in the whole series. The evil of, say, Ramsay is obvious, viscous and crude. The Sparrow on the other hand is far more clever, more subtle and more effective. Ramsay can break your will but the Sparrow enslaves your very soul. Perhaps Jon Snow can destroy him, having been to the "afterlife" and being able to say from experience that the whole construct of Gods and eternal rewards/punishments is a tissue of fantasy. Probably not though. People ignore what that don't want to accept. Facts never matter much in such questions. Of course, Jon Snow may not have been in the afterlife long enough to meet the gods. They doubtless have a full schedule and may not be readily available to everyone who happens to drop in.
23
Dear Tobias:
This is the singularly apex comment ever!
Whoever you are, I appreciate your taking time to post.
This is the singularly apex comment ever!
Whoever you are, I appreciate your taking time to post.
3
Thank you so much. you are clearly a person of culture and discernment. I kiss your hand.
8
He is evil, and personal power is his ultimate goal. But he is not altogether wrong either. The pain and poverty of the masses gives him a huge amount of strength, power, and authority that his challengers can't hope to match. Beware of ignoring the plight of the masses, because in their desperation, they may follow even worse leaders.
3
There’s a fine line between conveying a sense of toil and drudgery by repeating similar scenes, and just wearing out your audience.
True, however, compared to that interminable and sadistic subplot featuring Ramsay torturing Theon from a few season back - how long did that go on? - the business with Arya in the opening episodes of this current season was a breeze. Not much fun for Maisie Williams, though.
True, however, compared to that interminable and sadistic subplot featuring Ramsay torturing Theon from a few season back - how long did that go on? - the business with Arya in the opening episodes of this current season was a breeze. Not much fun for Maisie Williams, though.
2
I can't believe the writers actually made us sit through an entire scene in which the issue amounted to:"well, what topic shall we talk about."
Come on! I know they're off book at this point, but this is ridiculous...
Tons of characters and plot lines on this show and they're serving up idiotic filler like this?
Come on! I know they're off book at this point, but this is ridiculous...
Tons of characters and plot lines on this show and they're serving up idiotic filler like this?
14
Objection noted but I'll give the writers enough rope to hang themselves until the dragons show up.
1
I laughed out loud at the spectacle of Tyrion trying to make small talk with two such reticent characters. He and Varys really are pretty stuck without Daenerys being in Mereen, so I thought playing the scene for laughs--and showing Tyrion's frustration--was a lot less tedious a way of marking time than the hyper-repetitive scenes of Arya becoming nobody. Which, by the way, left me wondering why they let her keep her gender identity rather than stripping that away too.
5
I believe Jon Snow is not a Stark but Baratheon, He seems to be the son of Lyanna and Robert Baratheon.
7
Not Baratheon. Starts w/ a T.
3
Well, according to the show thus far, that's entirely incorrect. He's the son of Ned Stark and some random peasant lass, and everyone who ever refers to him in the show is aware of this.
Yup. Seems like via Jon Snow's true parentage we're either getting an alliance between the Wolves and the Dragons or the Wolves and Everybody-who-threw-the-Dragons-off-the-Iron Throne-last-generation. It's gonna depend on where Martin wants to take the final-showdown-war.
Did anyone else notice that only 4 of Jon's murderers were hung? What happened to the rest of them?
2
I think they were killed by Wan Wan and the wildlings.
5
Yes I noticed. Maybe it was just the ringleaders? In that case could Olly be considered a ringleader as opposed to an underage pawn? In any case it was a pitifully small squadron of brothers in the courtyard watching the execution. Is that all that are left or did some stay in their barracks out of protest?
3
I took another look at the assassination scene — in “Mother’s Mercy,” the last episode of season 5 — and counted at least 15 men of the Watch, in addition to Ser Alliser and Olly, in the group that killed Jon. So, there were at least 17 who could be deemed Jon’s murderers. And we were shown 6 of those men — beginning with Ser Alliser and ending with Olly — actually stabbing Jon.
In last week’s episode, “Home”, when Edd and the wildlings storm Castle Black, to save Ser Davos, Ghost, and the loyal men of the Watch who are barricaded in the room with Jon’s body, Tormund cuts down one swordsman who rushes him, and the giant, Wun Wun, dashes the man who shoots •him•, with a crossbow, against the castle wall. As best I can tell, no one else is killed. Most of the Watch defending the castle throw down their arms and yield, and Ser Alliser and Olly are subdued and disarmed. Edd then orders the mutineers locked up.
Perhaps Jon imposed death sentences only on those of the mutineers who actually stabbed him. If the two men killed by Tormund and Wun Wun were among those 6 men who themselves wielded their knives against Jon, then that would leave 4 to hang.
It does raise an interesting question: what of the other 11 or so mutineers who didn’t personally knife Jon? Did he commute their sentences? With the Night’s watch so terribly undermanned, they could scarcely afford to lose even that many more, if they can at all avoid it. And yet, such treason can hardly be forgiven.
— Brian
In last week’s episode, “Home”, when Edd and the wildlings storm Castle Black, to save Ser Davos, Ghost, and the loyal men of the Watch who are barricaded in the room with Jon’s body, Tormund cuts down one swordsman who rushes him, and the giant, Wun Wun, dashes the man who shoots •him•, with a crossbow, against the castle wall. As best I can tell, no one else is killed. Most of the Watch defending the castle throw down their arms and yield, and Ser Alliser and Olly are subdued and disarmed. Edd then orders the mutineers locked up.
Perhaps Jon imposed death sentences only on those of the mutineers who actually stabbed him. If the two men killed by Tormund and Wun Wun were among those 6 men who themselves wielded their knives against Jon, then that would leave 4 to hang.
It does raise an interesting question: what of the other 11 or so mutineers who didn’t personally knife Jon? Did he commute their sentences? With the Night’s watch so terribly undermanned, they could scarcely afford to lose even that many more, if they can at all avoid it. And yet, such treason can hardly be forgiven.
— Brian
Did you notice that Jon Stark still had marks from the stabbing? He wasn't made whole.
Does anybody think he and Mel will team up?
Does anybody think he and Mel will team up?
16
I think Jon should stay as far away from her as possible. However, I believe she will leach on to him as she did Stannis.
1
* Tormund not Torbane.
And I forgot-- first mention of The Hound tonight! I still have high hopes I'll see him back and fighting for the good guys from now on.
And I forgot-- first mention of The Hound tonight! I still have high hopes I'll see him back and fighting for the good guys from now on.
30
Dan: As long as we’re spell-checking, the youngest Stark child is •Rickon•, NOT “Rikken”. If you don’t believe me, then believe HBO:
http://www.hbo.com/game-of-thrones/cast-and-crew/rickon-stark/index.html
— Brian
http://www.hbo.com/game-of-thrones/cast-and-crew/rickon-stark/index.html
— Brian
11
I'm really psyched he will be coming back. I know it as certain as I knew Jon Snow was not dead.
2
The Hound and The Mountain - back together or back against each other?
6
This season began with a focus on the paths of the female characters and we saw some movement tonight despite the slow pace. Interesting that both Yara and Danni face literal tests concerning their futures. Arya seems to have passed her's with flying colors. As did Milisandra, who I imagine will be running after Jon as he strolls out the gate of Castle Black along with his new bro Torbane at the head of the Wildling horde. Cersei's vengeance is rising like a volcano, and Jamie is ready to wield his sword against Sand Snake and Sparrow alike. Gilly will have to survive Sam's meany dad, I'm not feeling good about that. Somewhere Sansa and Brienne make their way toward Castle Black but will their path take them into the jaws of the growing Northern Alliance? And poor Rikken and Osha.
I'm still liking the show but I have to agree with some of the other posters that so far this season has not been as good as most previous ones. Are they too far out in front of Martin and the voice becoming reedy? I hope not. But the scene with Pycelle going on and on in the small council sure reminded me of the scene in Kung Fu Panda where Po was doing his imitation of Shifu when he opened the door. And Tyrion's awkward interactions with Grey Worm and Missandei-- ouch.
Still, this is a great show and I'm not ready to write it off yet. I'm pretty sure things pick up and start moving on a huge scale soon. Like White Walker, Winter is Here, huge scale. I still betting it's going to be great.
I'm still liking the show but I have to agree with some of the other posters that so far this season has not been as good as most previous ones. Are they too far out in front of Martin and the voice becoming reedy? I hope not. But the scene with Pycelle going on and on in the small council sure reminded me of the scene in Kung Fu Panda where Po was doing his imitation of Shifu when he opened the door. And Tyrion's awkward interactions with Grey Worm and Missandei-- ouch.
Still, this is a great show and I'm not ready to write it off yet. I'm pretty sure things pick up and start moving on a huge scale soon. Like White Walker, Winter is Here, huge scale. I still betting it's going to be great.
21
This episode felt hurried to me. I couldn't really settle into any of the plotlines before we moved on to the next one. I don't know why it has to be this way. By far the most interesting story was Arya's story. Now that she has her eyesight back, I wonder what's in store of her.
Jon Snow was a huge letdown this week. He woke up and he seems to be having some sort of post-death crisis. It was not very compelling. I hope they can make that plot more interesting in the coming weeks.
Sam and Gilli had a sweet moment, of course marred by puke, but I was so happy to see them. I feel like Jon Snow's storyline needs the comic relief that Sam provides.
Also, pretty awkward in Mereen. I had high hopes for Tyron in Mereen, but it just does not seem to make that plotline any better. I don't care enough about the Sons for the Harpy or that city.
Not quite sure what's the significance of Bran's vision. I hope we learn soon.
Jon Snow was a huge letdown this week. He woke up and he seems to be having some sort of post-death crisis. It was not very compelling. I hope they can make that plot more interesting in the coming weeks.
Sam and Gilli had a sweet moment, of course marred by puke, but I was so happy to see them. I feel like Jon Snow's storyline needs the comic relief that Sam provides.
Also, pretty awkward in Mereen. I had high hopes for Tyron in Mereen, but it just does not seem to make that plotline any better. I don't care enough about the Sons for the Harpy or that city.
Not quite sure what's the significance of Bran's vision. I hope we learn soon.
20
Spoilers: Great to see Varys at work again, he's been Costello to Tyrion's Abbott for too long. Not sure if he made the traitor woman "happy" or killed her via the "leader-clad friend" he mentioned, but he did get the information he wanted - yep, he's back! The reanimated Jon Snow has not gotten any extra energy from this trip into the afterlife - still the same drooping around. Handing over the Lord Commander role seemed very perfunctory - his watch is certainly over! Where's he going - Winterfell to fight with Ramsay? Knight's Landing to fight with Cersei/Jaime/Sparrows? People who have had near death experiences are often psychic on their return - will Jon now have visions to rival Bran's? It is strange to have so many of Ned Stark's children in desperate peril - Jon came back from the dead but is still a marked man, Arya got her sight back but still has no freedom, Sansa is on the run and has one friend (Brienne) to protect her, Rickon is now entrapped by Ramsay - and may soon be missing important parts of himself, if Ramsay goes the Reek route. The Tyrion game segment fell really flat - but the Small Council meeting was very funny. Great to see Diana Rigg back as the sharp-tongued relative of Margery, reminding Cersei that she is not the queen, and that the Lannister family tree is very twisted, indeed. Uncle Kevan is dead in the books, murdered by children, but in the show, he's alive and kicking Cersei in the shins. We missed the dragons! And where is Littlefinger??
25
Am I the only one getting a really bad vibe concerning the future of House Tyrell? Loras and Margaery still in prison, Olenna casting aspersions on the genetics of the Lannisters, Mace such a doofus. Who is next in line should all those meet untimely ends? I guess as long as Tommen's love for Margaery remains strong Cersei's hands will be tied but I still have a bad vibe for the golden rose.
23
Mace Tyrell looks like the mayor of Munchkinland.
46
Kevan is killed in the books at the behest of a character that is not in the TV show. There's actually no room for him because it would splinter the story even further. Not sure how they're going to wrap up this series in two abbreviated seasons as it is.
1
Interesting how things are shaking out. The plot seems to be converging around the characters that we met in the beginning at Winterfell. Jon has come back from the dead and left the Night's Watch, making him something of a free agent. The Three-eyed Raven says he's been waiting specifically for Bran and is equipping him with knowledge of past events. Arya has finally completed her training at the House of Black and White. Sansa has freed herself from Ramsay and has Brienne to help her. Now, Rickon suddenly reappears. Feels like they're all moving towards something. Please get Tyrion out of Meereen, though. His wit is wasted there.
53
yes, please give Tyrion something more interesting to do. Nothing this season has been as good as, "That's what I do. I drink, and I know things."
8
Martin calls it an epic of 'fire and snow' for a reason! I think the battle lines are fairly well drawn at this point with D and J combining forces with 3 dragons against the Winter hoards. Many of the non-Stark characters are unlikely to be around for the big battle and they are mostly 'B plot' distractions in this season.
3
It all seems so predictable. Is GoT post-peak?
17
It's more like the viewership is post-peak. Having 10 months to speculate on the fate of Jon Snow made anything that happened to him a letdown. And the viewership then pats itself on the back about it and ignores the other great stuff that's happening. Like seeing how Varys does an interrogation, and learning who his "little birds" are. Like Cersei and Jaime playing their big move of taking over the Small Council only to see them fail. Like Arya being willing to drink from the well. Like Jon quitting the Night's Watch.
But everyone should keep patting themselves on the back about Jon being resurrected and what happened in the Tower of Joy, and ignore the other 90% of the show.
But everyone should keep patting themselves on the back about Jon being resurrected and what happened in the Tower of Joy, and ignore the other 90% of the show.
11
We already know who Varys's little birds are. We learned in Season one or two that Varys pays children to spy for him. And we saw him similarly offer Shae a chest of wealth if she would leave King's Landing. That's his MO. He buys what he wants from people. He does not torture or kill.
3
"mash-up of Sturgis and Burning Man"
Hilarious visuals, that one. Oh, and Dothraki sickle-swords.
Hilarious visuals, that one. Oh, and Dothraki sickle-swords.
9
Tower of Joy? Not without an epidural. We just witnessed the birth of John Snow.
68
Aha! Very interesting. So Ned will pick him up and take him back to Winterfell where Catlyn would apparently already be waiting with toddler Robb already in tow, passing Jon off thenceforth as his own wild oats. My head is spinning.
29
Agreed. In season 1 episode 1 , Ned tells Jon that he will tell him of his mother one day. Perhaps by keeping Jon's parentage a secret he was protecting Jon from his friend King Robert Boratheon.
8
We didn't witness Jon Snow's birth but we may have overheard it.
6
Sadly, we're down to 2 living Stark wolves now (Nymeria, where are you?)
What a look of hate from Olly to Jon. Have to wonder if Jon saw some of his two younger brothers in Olly and, hence, part of the heartbreak,
I'm a bit disappointed in this season and I think it has to do with a feeling of inevitability or everything being preordained. Read enough blogs/internet speculation or know the books and you knew Jon Snow was leaving the Night's Watch, there would be a Tower of Joy scene, and Rickon would turn up in Ramsey's hands (based on the trailer last week). It seems like there are few surprises on this show now. Some small ones (the death of Arthur Dayne) but nothing big. At this point, I'm hoping for some major twist in the R+L=J theory. For those of a certain age, remember what a thrilling shock it was to find out who Luke Skywalker's father was? If the original Star Wars trilogy came out today, we'd all know this before the opening weekend of "Empire" was over. Huge surprises in pop culture seem harder to find in a spoiler happy world.
Still, I'm curious to see what Theon's presence in the Iron islands will yield. Does Bran get to see the conclusion of the Tower of Joy scene? What does he see next if he has to learn "everything"? What does Ramsey do to Rickon? And here's the real burning question: given that young Ned may have heard Bran calling out to him, is it possible that Bran will be able to alter Westoros history at some point?
What a look of hate from Olly to Jon. Have to wonder if Jon saw some of his two younger brothers in Olly and, hence, part of the heartbreak,
I'm a bit disappointed in this season and I think it has to do with a feeling of inevitability or everything being preordained. Read enough blogs/internet speculation or know the books and you knew Jon Snow was leaving the Night's Watch, there would be a Tower of Joy scene, and Rickon would turn up in Ramsey's hands (based on the trailer last week). It seems like there are few surprises on this show now. Some small ones (the death of Arthur Dayne) but nothing big. At this point, I'm hoping for some major twist in the R+L=J theory. For those of a certain age, remember what a thrilling shock it was to find out who Luke Skywalker's father was? If the original Star Wars trilogy came out today, we'd all know this before the opening weekend of "Empire" was over. Huge surprises in pop culture seem harder to find in a spoiler happy world.
Still, I'm curious to see what Theon's presence in the Iron islands will yield. Does Bran get to see the conclusion of the Tower of Joy scene? What does he see next if he has to learn "everything"? What does Ramsey do to Rickon? And here's the real burning question: given that young Ned may have heard Bran calling out to him, is it possible that Bran will be able to alter Westoros history at some point?
14
But is it really Rickon? Isn't he with Bran? I can't remember now. And if we have another few weeks of torture courtesy of Ramsey, I don't think I'd be able to take it.
Good call on Bran maybe altering the history of Westerose. Maybe at the expense of his own life. You heard the three eyed raven--he's not supposed to alter the past. Maybe he will. Do you think he'll bring Ned back?
Good call on Bran maybe altering the history of Westerose. Maybe at the expense of his own life. You heard the three eyed raven--he's not supposed to alter the past. Maybe he will. Do you think he'll bring Ned back?
That is Rickon. Same actor and he's with Osha. I think Ramsay will behave himself with Rickon for a little while (as he may have taken Roose's "wild dog" remark to heart). Rickon is a bargaining chip if it comes to that. No sense in killing him off. I'm wondering if Rickon isn't a plant though with the help of the Umbers? Do they have any reason to hate the Starks like the Karstarks did (after losing their father)? And hence, would the Umbers rather have a Stark ruling Winterfell than a Bolton. Not likely though.
as for the Bran altering the past...as you noted, the Three-eyed Raven may keep him in check.
as for the Bran altering the past...as you noted, the Three-eyed Raven may keep him in check.
14
It's Rikken. I guess it was back in season 4 when the decision was made to split up Bran and Rikken as the last (as far as they knew) heirs to House Stark. In the absence of Sansa, Rikken now gives Ramsey a Stark which as we know, at least according to Roose, is important because you cannot rule the North without a Stark. I was so bummed out to see Osha and Rikken brought in. Osha is one of my favorite characters but unfortunately quite dispensable to the plot, I'd imagine, and we all know what Ramsey is capable of.
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