So you finally met two Afghan women and they were singing and laughing in your car on the way to an international conference in Turkey? I guess we were all wrong about the oppression on Afghan women then. Give me a break Ms. Shah. Afghan women are entitled to feel however they want. It doesn't change the status quo.
22
" Off the top of my head, I'd like to see our military intervene to free the women of Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, the Congo, Northern Nigeria, and Sudan"
Wow. Was this posting ghostwritten by Dick Cheney, or his vile daughter?
You live in a fantasy world, madame. The myth of the Amazons was just that, a myth.
What countries should we invade when you examine the middle, or bottom, of your head?
One advantage these hapless women have, that you neglected to mention, is that their voluminous shrouds
could provide hiding places for automatic weapons. Not!
Wow. Was this posting ghostwritten by Dick Cheney, or his vile daughter?
You live in a fantasy world, madame. The myth of the Amazons was just that, a myth.
What countries should we invade when you examine the middle, or bottom, of your head?
One advantage these hapless women have, that you neglected to mention, is that their voluminous shrouds
could provide hiding places for automatic weapons. Not!
While I sympathize with Ms Shah's thesis to understand the richness, of Afghan or Islamic womanhood experience I can't help but feel it is a deluded assessment.
The ideas and beliefs of the west with it's concept of the benefits of progressive civilization may simply be beyond the understanding of peoples who have never known any freedom because of the primacy of the Koran, shariah law and centuries of class distinction and heritable or despotic rulers. The after-life and extinction of nonbelievers are more important. Women, aside from a few intellectuals, are often no more than chattel for breeding.
I'm not endorsing this assessment as permanent. There are signs of changes but they are distant and will be costly.
The ideas and beliefs of the west with it's concept of the benefits of progressive civilization may simply be beyond the understanding of peoples who have never known any freedom because of the primacy of the Koran, shariah law and centuries of class distinction and heritable or despotic rulers. The after-life and extinction of nonbelievers are more important. Women, aside from a few intellectuals, are often no more than chattel for breeding.
I'm not endorsing this assessment as permanent. There are signs of changes but they are distant and will be costly.
13
I think many commenters are missing the point. The author is not saying that the horrific things that have happened to Afghan women are okay, and that we should not do anything to help them. She is saying the west should not swoop in and declare to them "This is exactly what is wrong in your life and this is how I will now fix it for you." She is asking for less condescension and arrogance, and more preserving of dignity and self determination. We didn't stop calling women in the United States who have experienced rape "victims" instead of "survivors" because we think what happened to them is any less horrible. In the same vein, we have to recognize that there are many things Afghan women can do themselves, and that many of them are making strides in their own way with the set of cards they have been dealt. The way some Western feminists speak of Afghan women has always felt a bit to me like going back in time to explain to Harriet Tubman she needs to spend more time fighting cultural appropriation and microaggressions. You can't force a complete cultural change overnight.
20
I'm more interested in knowing the REAL reasons for our presence in Afghanistan to begin with. Whose commercial interests are we protecting this time?
10
This URL tells me that my comment was accepted but the URL only leads to this blank box. Therefore I paste it in here and hope a reviewer will fix the link.
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/04/29/opinion/afghan-women-what-the-west-get...
Briefly that comment states that there is no "West" but rather a variety of organizations just as there is no Afghan woman who represents all.
Since Bina Shah points to two Afghan women who were given the chance to visit a conference on poetry in Konya, Turkey dealing with the work of the poet who became a best seller in America a few years ago, Rumi. They were there with the support of a "foreign" grant.
Since it appears that foreign countries are doing something right, helping the two women leave Afghanistan for poetry, however briefly, I added these names to suggest that the US and the UK among others must be doing something right.
Warsan Shire, Chimamanda Ngotzi Adichie, Fadima Mohamed, Helen Oyeyemi, Ayaan HIrsi Ali and more - read their work and decide what lesson their freedom presents for the people in the countries of their birth.
Only-NeverInSweden.blogspot.com
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/04/29/opinion/afghan-women-what-the-west-get...
Briefly that comment states that there is no "West" but rather a variety of organizations just as there is no Afghan woman who represents all.
Since Bina Shah points to two Afghan women who were given the chance to visit a conference on poetry in Konya, Turkey dealing with the work of the poet who became a best seller in America a few years ago, Rumi. They were there with the support of a "foreign" grant.
Since it appears that foreign countries are doing something right, helping the two women leave Afghanistan for poetry, however briefly, I added these names to suggest that the US and the UK among others must be doing something right.
Warsan Shire, Chimamanda Ngotzi Adichie, Fadima Mohamed, Helen Oyeyemi, Ayaan HIrsi Ali and more - read their work and decide what lesson their freedom presents for the people in the countries of their birth.
Only-NeverInSweden.blogspot.com
8
Look - I have been in Soviet Union during Gorbatshev. I met many nice people back there. Therefore I realized communism must be fine and west all get it wrong. :-). Is such article really and seriously being in NYT ?
19
I am confused by the sixth paragraph. So Western development workers grow rich (who knew the work paid so well) while Afghan women must leave the country because of the dangerous conditions for female Afghan intellectuals, but who are now able to speak for themselves, presumably from the safety of Western liberal democracies were they now live. Furthermore, they are now able to speak because training and workshops, again supplied by Western international organizations.
Is this all a consequence of the “imperialist invasion” or a justification?
Is this all a consequence of the “imperialist invasion” or a justification?
20
Say what you like, but every time I read an article about women in an Islamic country, I give praise to God that I am not there, that they are not me. Heck, those Islamists would have my head (or other body part) cut off in no time.
I thought when we invaded (or whatever we did or thought we were doing) Afghanistan, that we should back a big boat--figuratively speaking--up to the country and tell all the women that if they wanted to leave to hop onboard the boat.
I guess the only good thing to come out of their situation is that Western countries will always dominate countries where 50 percent of the population is marginalized. You can't compete when you don't tap in to the talents of such a sizeable portion of the population.
Still, for women in Islamic or any patriarchal countries--if I had a big boat, I'd come and rescue you. Since I don't, I praise God that I am who I am and I live where I live.
I thought when we invaded (or whatever we did or thought we were doing) Afghanistan, that we should back a big boat--figuratively speaking--up to the country and tell all the women that if they wanted to leave to hop onboard the boat.
I guess the only good thing to come out of their situation is that Western countries will always dominate countries where 50 percent of the population is marginalized. You can't compete when you don't tap in to the talents of such a sizeable portion of the population.
Still, for women in Islamic or any patriarchal countries--if I had a big boat, I'd come and rescue you. Since I don't, I praise God that I am who I am and I live where I live.
12
The main problem global society has not given enough attention to social inclusion is necessary genter equality policies this is to improve the status of women and values around thje world and help them reach their economic independence
1
Anyone who defends a religious creed that countenances their subjugation isn't helping. I imagine that there were many young lads who swore by the parish priest and were sad when he was transferred to his next venue of venality. Please.
14
Afghanistan has a long tradition of rejecting any attempts of change that come from abroad.
Many foreign powers have these bloody lessons in their history books.
The same applies here.
As long as foreign influence is at work, regardless of its good intentions, it will not change anything but simply create resistance.
If Afghan society, to address both woman and men, changes it will be change from within.
Many foreign powers have these bloody lessons in their history books.
The same applies here.
As long as foreign influence is at work, regardless of its good intentions, it will not change anything but simply create resistance.
If Afghan society, to address both woman and men, changes it will be change from within.
4
What is it with human beings? We quickly forget so much, yet we nurse our grievances forever. It was not long ago that US women were in nearly as subservient a position as today's Afghani women. US women could not inherit property until the 19th Century, could not vote until the early 20th, could not hold but a handful of jobs until the 1970's. But something changed in the generation that came of age in the 1960's and 70's. Think about it. Hillary Clinton's was the first generation of women that could, in scale, realize their dreams - that could actually attain and hold the jobs their university educations entitled them to have. Part of this was due to the evolution of religion, largely liberal main line Protestantism and post-Vatican II Catholicism, part of it to women having proved themselves worthy when they temporarily took up traditionally men's positions in the labor force during the military mobilization of WW II, but that is fodder for another post. Afghanistan seems to have one foot firmly planted in the 19th Century, the other in the 12th Century and one eye trained on the 21st Century. But until they experience on a generational scale something like the awakening that occurred in the Westerners, men in particular, born after WW II, women will continue to be treated as chattels. I hope Afghan women are patient because it could be another Century before they join their western sisters who themselves are still not quite all the way to equality.
13
However well intentioned this article ignores that Westerners can only see things through the eyes of liberal societies. It also does not explain the women of Afghanistan helping to uphold the status quo, Is feminism really just a conceit of well off women? How do you understand this?
6
Wow. Thanks to Ms. Shah for this piece and especially to all the commenters on these issues this morning for digging me out from under my complacency and opening my eyes. All of you have given me much to think about. Thanks.
2
United States should learn from our long history in this part of the world. They don't want us there, our cultures are diametrically opposed.
These people are animals, they treat their women like animals. It's been like this for hundreds of years and all the western education and influence in the world is not going to change it.
These people are animals, they treat their women like animals. It's been like this for hundreds of years and all the western education and influence in the world is not going to change it.
11
Sounds like the reaction of Newarkers to Mark Zuckerberg's donation of $100M to the school system...to wit:
Keep the money coming (from all sources) - but otherwise, butt out of our affairs
It goes on as...
We like tens and twenties - but really like shrink-wrapped pallets of hundreds
PS - none of the new twenties...Won't ever be recognized as real money in our country
Keep the money coming (from all sources) - but otherwise, butt out of our affairs
It goes on as...
We like tens and twenties - but really like shrink-wrapped pallets of hundreds
PS - none of the new twenties...Won't ever be recognized as real money in our country
4
Afghan men are notorious for the brutal treatment of their women. I wonder if an iota of decency is on the horizon when America and its allies invaded their country back in 2001. "Change", someone said, takes time, but to imagine that Afghanistan, which has fended off foreign invaders throughout its history still remains backward today, is alarming.
12
The best place I know of to learn about what some brave Afghan women experience, believe, and think is the Afghan Women's Writing Project: http://awwproject.org/.
Here's a concrete step we all can take: Read their writing, listen to them, get into conversation with them, and encourage and support them.
Ms. Shah: We may not entirely understand Afghan women, and perhaps some of what Western feminists do in their attempts to help doesn't work and they need to listen better, but please educate yourself further by listening to the voices of non-elite non-academics who don't get money to go to conferences.
Here's a concrete step we all can take: Read their writing, listen to them, get into conversation with them, and encourage and support them.
Ms. Shah: We may not entirely understand Afghan women, and perhaps some of what Western feminists do in their attempts to help doesn't work and they need to listen better, but please educate yourself further by listening to the voices of non-elite non-academics who don't get money to go to conferences.
18
@ Sarah D. - short and perfect.
Only-NeverInSweden.blogspot.com
Only-NeverInSweden.blogspot.com
3
Bina Shah, so 2 Afghan women is your sample size? As someone who knows a little bit of statistics, it sounds hilarious. But the sad part is this kind of distorted statistics is used time and again to reconfirm our dogma , and in the process, crush humanity .
30
Not only is her paltry sample of two utterly anecdotal, but the women were also NOT IN AFGHANISTAN. They were in Turkey, a nation that, more or less (Erdogan's appalling statements nonwithstanding), allows women to determine their own dress, and their own fate. So what if these Afghan women in Turkey covered their hair or not? I read your article enthusiastically, Ms. Shah, but I remain unconvinced.
9
The fact that this inane article is written by a woman is infuriating. Sometimes we really are our own worst enemies, as Ms. Shah has shown. I'll never read anything she writes again.
27
Several years ago, I was working in Yemen on an avian influenza control project. At one point, I visited and women-only NGO research organization. As a newcomer in the country, I learned to recognize each of the staff members, all dressed in black burqas, which the Swahili people of Kenya call buibuis, spiders. I found that I needed new cues to identify my co-workers: body mass, height, walking style, but above all, shoes of the day and voices. It took some time to learn that faces were no longer relevant.
Using only voice and other markers of their identity, they politely but firmly asked me why I, a 65-year-old white American male, had come to tell them about bird flu. So I answered and they listened, then they made their decisions.
As a 65-year-old white American male, I never found out what they looked like. I don’t know if it mattered.
Using only voice and other markers of their identity, they politely but firmly asked me why I, a 65-year-old white American male, had come to tell them about bird flu. So I answered and they listened, then they made their decisions.
As a 65-year-old white American male, I never found out what they looked like. I don’t know if it mattered.
5
Afghanistan exasperates me. Not the country, because it really isn't one except on world maps.
I doubt that anyone disputes the accusation that the social status of Afghan women is deplorable except most Afghan men, the only people who count. So what steps can Westerners take to improve the status of Afghan women that are remotely practical? Almost every social reform we tried to impose there failed because they were demonstrably impractical. What future steps might we take that are remotely practical?
Here's an inventory of our disadvantages: we aren't from there; don't live there; don't speak the languages. Afghanistan is almost as far away from America as you can go, traveling either east or west. Sociologically, it isn't a melting pot but an array of insular, fiercely-defended tribal enclaves often described as stuck in a time warp, a Biblical land circa 200 AD. Most important of all: it's mountainous. Pakistani military strategy to repel an Indian invasion needs those mountains, why Afghanistan is Pakistan's hinterland, its defense-in-depth, its strategic redoubt. Also why Pakistan's ISI works to weaken Kabul governments, so they can be swept aside when the military situation requires it. Pakistan aids Afghan insurgencies to undermine Kabul, why there will never be peace there.
Afghan tribal culture treats women abominably. But up against that long list of disadvantages what possible steps can we take to improve their lot in life that are remotely practical?
I doubt that anyone disputes the accusation that the social status of Afghan women is deplorable except most Afghan men, the only people who count. So what steps can Westerners take to improve the status of Afghan women that are remotely practical? Almost every social reform we tried to impose there failed because they were demonstrably impractical. What future steps might we take that are remotely practical?
Here's an inventory of our disadvantages: we aren't from there; don't live there; don't speak the languages. Afghanistan is almost as far away from America as you can go, traveling either east or west. Sociologically, it isn't a melting pot but an array of insular, fiercely-defended tribal enclaves often described as stuck in a time warp, a Biblical land circa 200 AD. Most important of all: it's mountainous. Pakistani military strategy to repel an Indian invasion needs those mountains, why Afghanistan is Pakistan's hinterland, its defense-in-depth, its strategic redoubt. Also why Pakistan's ISI works to weaken Kabul governments, so they can be swept aside when the military situation requires it. Pakistan aids Afghan insurgencies to undermine Kabul, why there will never be peace there.
Afghan tribal culture treats women abominably. But up against that long list of disadvantages what possible steps can we take to improve their lot in life that are remotely practical?
21
If you really want to see the opinions of women from Afghanistan, and other theocracies, observe their behavior when they immigrate to Los Angeles from a broad array of socioeconomic levels, because of war, family reunification, marriage, or accidents of history. Suddenly they demand to go to school, have independence--and when they are abused, they quickly learn to call 911. The upward mobility of these women is stunning. You might wish to observe Afghan women in places where they don't have to worry about their nose being cut off, rather than smugly assume they are content with much of their lot--from an insulated perch that was a creation of the West.
33
What should be our role, as outsiders?
Take a more extreme example -
Suppose there was an island occupied by a stone age tribe that had never contacted the rest of the world and which existed as a kind of "anthropological treasure", an untouched holdover from 20,000 years ago.
Suppose we've decided to make that island off limits so as to preserve its unique culture, undisturbed by modernity.
They live by spear, bow and arrow. They have a low life expectancy because they've made no medical advances.
Do we intervene and provide them medical help, thus interfering with their unique way of life, but in the process saving lives? Or do we let them die young?
Now suppose the group also practices child-marriage, female genital mutilation, spousal rape as the right of the husband, death sentences for homosexual activity etc.
Do we intervene and disturb their untouched "culture", in order to save lives? Or do we just let people be tortured and murdered?
Take a more extreme example -
Suppose there was an island occupied by a stone age tribe that had never contacted the rest of the world and which existed as a kind of "anthropological treasure", an untouched holdover from 20,000 years ago.
Suppose we've decided to make that island off limits so as to preserve its unique culture, undisturbed by modernity.
They live by spear, bow and arrow. They have a low life expectancy because they've made no medical advances.
Do we intervene and provide them medical help, thus interfering with their unique way of life, but in the process saving lives? Or do we let them die young?
Now suppose the group also practices child-marriage, female genital mutilation, spousal rape as the right of the husband, death sentences for homosexual activity etc.
Do we intervene and disturb their untouched "culture", in order to save lives? Or do we just let people be tortured and murdered?
9
Actually there are such islands, the Andamans, protected by India, and yes, infanticide and higher mortality is tolerated in the interests of preserving the islanders'unique society.
5
Bina Shah did not write the headline: Afghan Women: What the West Gets Wrong but it won't do. There is no "West" that gets things wrong. There are countless organizations having their roots in the west, some of them referred to here, some getting things right, some not.
But note the paradoxes, dilemmas, puzzles as concerns women born in Afghanistan, Somalia, Nigeria who leave home. The author tells us about "two young Afghan women" who got the chance to leave home, if only briefly. "...they’d come to Konya (in Turkey) through a foreign grant, and their projects at home were funded by international organizations." If foreign and international fall under the umbrella of West, then something good was being done under that umbrella.
Then consider these names: Warsan Shire, Helen Oyeyemi, Nadifa Mohamed, Ayaan Hirsi Ali, Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie. Look them up. Read their books. Learn where they have lived and where they have been educated.
Is the one lesson that can be learned from them the lesson that the world can give each such woman born in the countries I name the chance to become educated outside their country of birth and then show both the world and their sisters who ”stayed home” what certain kinds of freedom can release?
And, if "the world" could provide more education for them inside their countries, so much the better.
Only-NeverInSweden.blogspot.com
But note the paradoxes, dilemmas, puzzles as concerns women born in Afghanistan, Somalia, Nigeria who leave home. The author tells us about "two young Afghan women" who got the chance to leave home, if only briefly. "...they’d come to Konya (in Turkey) through a foreign grant, and their projects at home were funded by international organizations." If foreign and international fall under the umbrella of West, then something good was being done under that umbrella.
Then consider these names: Warsan Shire, Helen Oyeyemi, Nadifa Mohamed, Ayaan Hirsi Ali, Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie. Look them up. Read their books. Learn where they have lived and where they have been educated.
Is the one lesson that can be learned from them the lesson that the world can give each such woman born in the countries I name the chance to become educated outside their country of birth and then show both the world and their sisters who ”stayed home” what certain kinds of freedom can release?
And, if "the world" could provide more education for them inside their countries, so much the better.
Only-NeverInSweden.blogspot.com
9
She probably didn't write the headline.
Many of the reader's comments were much more illuminating than the article itself.
21
Ms Shah would have had the North not fight the civil war because to do so would be an insult to the slaves' dignity and right to self determination.
16
A very interesting and informative article. Having lived
in South Asia for several years, I can understand how difficult it is to truly understand people from societies that are so different from those of the
West. However, give some attention and credit to those people in
Europe or North America who feel about their own countries and cultures the same way Ms. Shah feels about Islamic societies. Some of them feel that they are being coerced into accepting drastically different ways of social interaction, or attitudes, at odds with liberal, humanistic societies. The sentence in this article that I find chilling is "Islam is important to them, as is their honor." Thinking about that, how can anything change among people entrenched in a conservative theocracy? The same could be said for any society anywhere governed by an oppressive religious or political ideology. I am sure you could find men and women in North Korea who would resist any attempt at an expansion of basic human rights because it would be perceived as "meddling" from outsiders in their own way of life. In the end, one can only conclude that strict, monolithic religions and ideologies are the main sources of oppression and misery.
in South Asia for several years, I can understand how difficult it is to truly understand people from societies that are so different from those of the
West. However, give some attention and credit to those people in
Europe or North America who feel about their own countries and cultures the same way Ms. Shah feels about Islamic societies. Some of them feel that they are being coerced into accepting drastically different ways of social interaction, or attitudes, at odds with liberal, humanistic societies. The sentence in this article that I find chilling is "Islam is important to them, as is their honor." Thinking about that, how can anything change among people entrenched in a conservative theocracy? The same could be said for any society anywhere governed by an oppressive religious or political ideology. I am sure you could find men and women in North Korea who would resist any attempt at an expansion of basic human rights because it would be perceived as "meddling" from outsiders in their own way of life. In the end, one can only conclude that strict, monolithic religions and ideologies are the main sources of oppression and misery.
1
"I must confess that I, too, have made the mistake of seeing Afghan women through a narrow prism."
I'm sorry, Ms. Shah, but you met TWO Afghan women and now feel enlightened enough to counsel the rest of us? Your "prism" is still as narrow as it ever was, given how it is based on selection bias.
Cultural sensitivity is fine and all, but there is a bright line that separates acceptable "culture" and unacceptable "culture." Beatings, torture, mutilation, "honor" killings, deprivation of basic human and civil rights, child marriages, lack of educational access, mental abuse, etc., etc., etc. The list goes on, all around the world, and women and children (hmm, basically, those who are generally weaker than males/adults) are on the receiving end of it. It is not culturally insensitive to point out these glaring problems.
But you're right about one thing. Change must come from within, not without. Assistance can be provided but it must be provided throughout a society. Good luck changing the hearts and minds of men who have been in power and control for millennia in a religion and culture that denigrates females, all the while claiming to protect their "virtues."
I'm sorry, Ms. Shah, but you met TWO Afghan women and now feel enlightened enough to counsel the rest of us? Your "prism" is still as narrow as it ever was, given how it is based on selection bias.
Cultural sensitivity is fine and all, but there is a bright line that separates acceptable "culture" and unacceptable "culture." Beatings, torture, mutilation, "honor" killings, deprivation of basic human and civil rights, child marriages, lack of educational access, mental abuse, etc., etc., etc. The list goes on, all around the world, and women and children (hmm, basically, those who are generally weaker than males/adults) are on the receiving end of it. It is not culturally insensitive to point out these glaring problems.
But you're right about one thing. Change must come from within, not without. Assistance can be provided but it must be provided throughout a society. Good luck changing the hearts and minds of men who have been in power and control for millennia in a religion and culture that denigrates females, all the while claiming to protect their "virtues."
65
"Good luck changing the hearts and minds of men who have been in power and control for millennia in a religion and culture that denigrates females, all the while claiming to protect their 'virtues.'"
This sounds alot like Western civilization before feminism.
This sounds alot like Western civilization before feminism.
4
After the end of slavery in the United States many former slaves carried on doing back-breaking plantation work, sometimes not even bothering to leave the plantation they had worked on before emancipation. Sometimes this was because they were frightened of the outside world, sometimes it was basic necessity (they couldn't find any other work, sometimes it was because they were older and the plantation life was all they knew.
.....none of this means that slavery was ok. There are limits to how 'free' our will really is sometimes. There are many women who are perfectly fine wearing the burqa; that doesn't make burqas any less repressive.
.....none of this means that slavery was ok. There are limits to how 'free' our will really is sometimes. There are many women who are perfectly fine wearing the burqa; that doesn't make burqas any less repressive.
44
It is true that the outside world has made the problems in Afghanistan far worse. Russians, Americans, we all made it worse. But at the same time I am pretty fed up with the Afghan people, they won't allow the actual helpful things we have been trying to do work because of resentment over the past. We build something, they destroy it. Let's just leave it and let them sort it out themselves. I honestly don't care if it takes them 200 years anymore. I personally think it's a terrible culture, from the bacha boys to genital mutilation, to near 100% corruption, to...just about everything. Let's GET OUT OF THERE. They deserve themselves.
29
It is not uncommon for Afghanis to be illiterate or semi-literate and steeped in their ancient ways. They are living as their ancestors did, and both men and women resist outside influence that tells them they should change. They have been fighting Western imperialism for many generations and live in a warrior culture, which by its nature privileges males. How different are they from the Europeans in medieval times, who would have been just as horrified as Afghanis are to see women in shorts or bikinis and no head coverings wandering the streets at will? As they are, we once were, maybe not as extreme, but even in Victorian times, a woman's sense of propriety was much different than now. As Westerners, we should respect their culture and let them make their own changes, as this author suggests, rather than always telling them they're wrong and trying to impose our beliefs on them. From their point of view we are just more Christian infidels who are in their country buying off their politicians, creating havoc, and killing their countrymen who resist, just as the British and Soviets did before us. We should try harder to understand them and realize that cultures don't change overnight just because we think they should.
27
If a culture denigrates human beings, it deserves no respect. It is precisely because we understand it too well that we criticize their medieval ways, in 2016.
15
Yes, but when they kill a woman who was raped, and all the other things they do (Stoning, dismemberment, etc.) then someone needs to step in. I see you are a man. You can never understand.
6
This is the kind of thinking that gives liberals a bad name. You think you are making a point by comparing them to the westerners of hundreds of years ago? Not everything is relative. All ideas are not equal. Not everything deserves respect. And some beliefs should be imposed.
5
I think the author's point is simply that we need to listen more and try not to impose our view of how Afghan society should operate. We need to look for initiatives by Afghans themselves and support those rather than sending in our own experts with pre-conceived notions. She also makes a good point that men needed to be included in the equation. If attempts to improve the situation for women involve demonizing the men, they're likely to fail. She also reminds us to beware of stereotypes of the victimized woman - the reality is always far more complex.
10
"the reality is always far more complex" - No it isn't. Women have no rights and they are brainwashed from birth to believe it's ok. See? Very simple.
9
No one really believed "the invasion to save Afganis women from their men" story....it was a pretext. Bush and his cronies wanted to stay. It was lucrative. The GOP in the US along with its Christian fundamentalist allies want to control and oppress women too. As a result, it was so much theater.
I'm sick to death quiet frankly of Western feminists or anyone else being blamed for the backward and violent cultures and relgions playing havoc with the lives of people in the ME. These vile behaviors are a clear the result of the culture and relgion of the regions and when we refuse to accept it we set ourselves up for failure. It is arrogance to think that other humans want to live like us or view freedom and equality for women or anyone the way we do. We can make judgments but we cannot change countries or humans from the outside.
Here's what we need to do. Get out! Let these indivuals mount their own reformation. We cannot do it for them and we should not try. All we can do is make it clear that such behaviors wil not be tolerated in our country and that we will provide no monetary or other support for countries or organizations that engage in them or enable them
If Afgan woman are willing to endure this conduct for their "religion and their honor", great. However, don't then ask for westerners to fund conferences wherein we are the villains.
I'm sick to death quiet frankly of Western feminists or anyone else being blamed for the backward and violent cultures and relgions playing havoc with the lives of people in the ME. These vile behaviors are a clear the result of the culture and relgion of the regions and when we refuse to accept it we set ourselves up for failure. It is arrogance to think that other humans want to live like us or view freedom and equality for women or anyone the way we do. We can make judgments but we cannot change countries or humans from the outside.
Here's what we need to do. Get out! Let these indivuals mount their own reformation. We cannot do it for them and we should not try. All we can do is make it clear that such behaviors wil not be tolerated in our country and that we will provide no monetary or other support for countries or organizations that engage in them or enable them
If Afgan woman are willing to endure this conduct for their "religion and their honor", great. However, don't then ask for westerners to fund conferences wherein we are the villains.
25
Reality: In most of Afghanistan, 1 in 5 women dies in childbirth. One in five. Think about that. In the modern world, the mortality rate of women in childbirth ranges from 5 to 20 per 100,000.
Most Afghani girls are married off while still children, girls being bartered away as young as age 5 --- too many of these girls die in childbirth or suffer fistulas, a childbirth injury where urine and/or feces leak uncontrollably, making them pariahs.
Fewer than one in five Afghani women are literate, compared to male literacy near 50%. Afghani women may see themselves as powerful, yet the reality is that their culture keeps them covered, illiterate, ignorant, impoverished, with high mortality and morbidity rates and short life spans. Poverty, no health care, no education, this is their lot.
Clearly, Afghani women have not been very effective in securing their own rights and those of their daughters. It seems that any Afghani woman who could read would want as much outside help as possible to improve education and health care for girls and women.
Do Afghani men need to change? You bet. But the Afghani women have not managed to accomplish that yet. With as dismal as the present situation is, outside help cannot make the situation worse than it is. Every single Afghani woman who receives medical care from Doctors Without Borders or other aid group, every Afghani girl who learns to read from an NGO is a victory against the forces of ignorance and injustice.
Most Afghani girls are married off while still children, girls being bartered away as young as age 5 --- too many of these girls die in childbirth or suffer fistulas, a childbirth injury where urine and/or feces leak uncontrollably, making them pariahs.
Fewer than one in five Afghani women are literate, compared to male literacy near 50%. Afghani women may see themselves as powerful, yet the reality is that their culture keeps them covered, illiterate, ignorant, impoverished, with high mortality and morbidity rates and short life spans. Poverty, no health care, no education, this is their lot.
Clearly, Afghani women have not been very effective in securing their own rights and those of their daughters. It seems that any Afghani woman who could read would want as much outside help as possible to improve education and health care for girls and women.
Do Afghani men need to change? You bet. But the Afghani women have not managed to accomplish that yet. With as dismal as the present situation is, outside help cannot make the situation worse than it is. Every single Afghani woman who receives medical care from Doctors Without Borders or other aid group, every Afghani girl who learns to read from an NGO is a victory against the forces of ignorance and injustice.
36
The most effective way to improve the status and value of women anywhere in the world is to help them achieve economic independence. Even in the US before the women's liberation movement, women married to alcoholic or abusive husbands couldn't leave the marriage because women couldn't get jobs that paid enough to support themselves and their children. The men knew that and felt free to abuse these trapped women. In many countries, "micro-loan" programs have helped women start small businesses like bakeries, hair salons, dressmaking shops and so on. As these women start to earn some money, their husbands and in-laws start to show them respect and appreciation. So while social change probably does need to come from within, outsiders can certainly help by providing training and seed money to get small businesses off the ground.
13
These women do seem to be giving mixed signals. Would they object to Western funding of a girl's school if some of the teachers were Westerners?
3
Time and again we see the problems wrought by Westerners who hope to replace local cultures with our values. That is hubris, and a waste of time and money. The best that we can do is to provide an example through media and entertainment of the life that we have chosen. But it is really up to those in other countries to take and adapt the elements of Western culture to their own as they see fit -- accepting some aspects and rejecting others. This takes time, and it cannot be imposed or forced. Be patient. Not everyone has to be an American.
12
I am not sure what the west is getting wrong. Any crime against women is intolerable, and its hard for me to feel good about the two young Afghan women at the end of the article, when we are informed about a young 20-year old woman who has her nose cut off, because her husband married a six or seven year old niece. And of course, he married his niece, because its okay to do that. Didn't Muhammed marry Aisha who was a child?
A society that condones that kind of behavior is barbaric in my eyes.
A society that condones that kind of behavior is barbaric in my eyes.
23
Of course it is barbaric in your eyes. But the Afghanis apparently do not think so. If they did, they would have changed it centuries ago. There are practices all around the world that I abhor, and and fight against if they come with immigrants to the U.S. If people from another country come here and told us what to do, we do not like it, and most of us would object. Some from the Middle East who are here now do precisely that. They don't like what we eat, or what we wear, or the fact that Americans drink alcohol. Should we change our culture just because they do not like it? Of course not. Instead, we must tell them to assimilate or go home, to the culture they were born in and appreciate. They think we are barbaric, and we think they are barbaric. Values are not facts. They are an emotional part of every culture and you can't easily change them.
Not "in your eyes." Don't hedge these assertions in moral relativism. Stick to your guns. Societies that feature and condone murder, rape, and other atrocities ARE barbaric.
I don't mean to sound snippy here, but this is a problem I've encountered with the left that right doesn't seem to share: weak conviction. Don't qualify these beliefs with "in my opinion" or "in my eyes." Promulgate them from the rooftops with the righteous fury they deserve. Relativism be damned.
I don't mean to sound snippy here, but this is a problem I've encountered with the left that right doesn't seem to share: weak conviction. Don't qualify these beliefs with "in my opinion" or "in my eyes." Promulgate them from the rooftops with the righteous fury they deserve. Relativism be damned.
8
What's the point of this article? Following the same reasoning, there is nothing wrong with say, cannibalism, as it was part of many indigenous cultures in the Amazon or Africa. The invaders could not understand and respect the local culture...
Behaviors and cultures are part of a dynamic biological system that may or may not survive in the long run. The Afghan culture does not look sustainable to me (this is why people are instinctively appalled when they read highlighting examples such as the lowlife who cut his wife's nose because she was unhappy he wanted to bed a 6 year old) and has to change if it hopes to survive. The fact that change is "pushed" by Westerners is essentially irrelevant. It will inevitably come from somewhere.
Behaviors and cultures are part of a dynamic biological system that may or may not survive in the long run. The Afghan culture does not look sustainable to me (this is why people are instinctively appalled when they read highlighting examples such as the lowlife who cut his wife's nose because she was unhappy he wanted to bed a 6 year old) and has to change if it hopes to survive. The fact that change is "pushed" by Westerners is essentially irrelevant. It will inevitably come from somewhere.
18
We didn't invade Afghanistan to protect women's rights. The Taliban would have been left in peace to stone, imprison, mutilate and murder women to their heart's content, if they hadn't had the stupidity to harbor Bin Laden. I wish with all my heart that the American military would invade countries to protect women from rape, captivity, murder, mutilation, and abuse. Off the top of my head, I'd like to see our military intervene to free the women of Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, the Congo, Northern Nigeria, and Sudan. I also support training and arming women in those countries to fight back in organized militias against their oppressors. Why is it we intervene when there is organized genocide against a racial or religious group, but when the basis for the abuse is gender, it's normalized as 'culture'? Why do certain people, some of them women, continue to write sly, vile, apologist tripe like this? Bina Shah is no better than a collaborator with the enemy, a traitor to her own gender, an enable of those who rape children and murder women. Disgusting and shameful.
21
None of our business. After 15 years, it is time for us to pull the plug on our entire Afghanistan operation. Bring home all our troops, operatives, contractors, money and arms. Admit that we are not helping. Admit that we are not capable of helping.
6
In the past 30 years, with advances in communications and travel, we have only just begun to see the spectrum of cultures and points of view that are spread throughout the globe. In fact, within our own "advanced" nation, we are hampered by all sorts of injustices ranging from racism to sexism to abuse of all sorts. I'm am saddened each time one is discovered and exposed because I hate accepting that such awful things are part of my own society, but I am given hope because once exposed we may be able to avoid it in the future.
Ours is not to "go change the world in our image" but only to sow powerful seeds of knowledge and information. The rest will take time, but it will change from within as good will ultimately prevail.
Ours is not to "go change the world in our image" but only to sow powerful seeds of knowledge and information. The rest will take time, but it will change from within as good will ultimately prevail.
1
Women in Afghanistan today absolutely ARE victims.
But how I wish readers could know the Afghan men in my life. My father, my uncles, my cousins... All educated, secular, pro-modernization, who are as shocked and revolted by this kind of news as any of you are.
Men like this were common just one generation ago. The men who were young in the 1960s, and who were part of the higher classes, sought educations in Europe and America, and either rejected religion or practiced it with a secular, moderate slant. My secular father married a European woman and raised me based on the principles of humanism, secularism, and modernism, encouraging me --- a girl --- to achieve the highest level of education possible. His love and respect for my mother were exemplary for any man from any culture.
We came to the West when we were kids, and my sister and I both went on to earn PhDs. My aunts and cousins all have careers --- they are lawyers, doctors, and bankers. And they all had Afghan fathers.
Afghanistan has been bled of its intelligentsia by 35 years of war. You cannot understand why it is the way it is unless you look at the Soviet invasion in 1979 and the decade that followed. Something has gone unspeakably, horrifically wrong in the country I knew in the 1970s. In 1978, half the student body at Kabul University was female. Girls wore short skirts and nail polish. My mom, sister, and I wore our blonde hair long and down. We never got so much as a dirty look.
But how I wish readers could know the Afghan men in my life. My father, my uncles, my cousins... All educated, secular, pro-modernization, who are as shocked and revolted by this kind of news as any of you are.
Men like this were common just one generation ago. The men who were young in the 1960s, and who were part of the higher classes, sought educations in Europe and America, and either rejected religion or practiced it with a secular, moderate slant. My secular father married a European woman and raised me based on the principles of humanism, secularism, and modernism, encouraging me --- a girl --- to achieve the highest level of education possible. His love and respect for my mother were exemplary for any man from any culture.
We came to the West when we were kids, and my sister and I both went on to earn PhDs. My aunts and cousins all have careers --- they are lawyers, doctors, and bankers. And they all had Afghan fathers.
Afghanistan has been bled of its intelligentsia by 35 years of war. You cannot understand why it is the way it is unless you look at the Soviet invasion in 1979 and the decade that followed. Something has gone unspeakably, horrifically wrong in the country I knew in the 1970s. In 1978, half the student body at Kabul University was female. Girls wore short skirts and nail polish. My mom, sister, and I wore our blonde hair long and down. We never got so much as a dirty look.
78
Northstar5, thank you for your comment -- I have often looked at photographs of Afghan women from the 60s and 70s, in libraries, in colleges, in heels and skirts, looking fashionable and free.
Too frequently, we forget to consider the background of events and to look back to even recent history. The driving out of the intelligentsia should not be forgotten, nor its impact ignored.
Too frequently, we forget to consider the background of events and to look back to even recent history. The driving out of the intelligentsia should not be forgotten, nor its impact ignored.
10
I'm still not convinced that you can say it's alright for women, half the population, to be so controlled and restricted. I suppose some women especially feel this because they're old enough to know all the ways that women were barred from excelling in the west even 15 or 20 years ago.
Perhaps it's just self preservation when you know how fragile and hard fought the recent progress has been in the west and how easy it would be to go backwards. I'm glad that people are trying to change this way of thinking about women. It's important for the well-being of all humans and it affects all of us.
Perhaps it's just self preservation when you know how fragile and hard fought the recent progress has been in the west and how easy it would be to go backwards. I'm glad that people are trying to change this way of thinking about women. It's important for the well-being of all humans and it affects all of us.
4
> "Afghan women have always been conscious of their suffering, but take offense at the idea that they need foreigners to intervene on their behalf
. . . the continuing violence against women has been fueled in great part by resentment from men — and many women — over a speedy agenda for change that they see as forced upon them by outsiders"
Oh yes, the men & women are upset that they feel us outsiders are forcing a an agenda of "speedy" change on them
AND they don't need us pushing them, they are moving along just fine without our meddlesome pressure
AFGHAN Women will get their human rights at about the same time that Saudi women are allowed to leave their house on the own, unchaperoned, and drive like every male in their society
Change is coming, stop pressuring us, it might take a few more centuries, but it's unstoppable
We don't tell you people in the West how to treat your women, so stop trying to tell us how to treat ours
THE SADDEST PART OF THIS IS: if/when we ever leave-
. . . within 30 days the status of women will go back to a state much worse than it was before we got there
This is what happened when we pulled out of Vietnam, it is what happened with Pol Pot, and many other times & places
. . . the continuing violence against women has been fueled in great part by resentment from men — and many women — over a speedy agenda for change that they see as forced upon them by outsiders"
Oh yes, the men & women are upset that they feel us outsiders are forcing a an agenda of "speedy" change on them
AND they don't need us pushing them, they are moving along just fine without our meddlesome pressure
AFGHAN Women will get their human rights at about the same time that Saudi women are allowed to leave their house on the own, unchaperoned, and drive like every male in their society
Change is coming, stop pressuring us, it might take a few more centuries, but it's unstoppable
We don't tell you people in the West how to treat your women, so stop trying to tell us how to treat ours
THE SADDEST PART OF THIS IS: if/when we ever leave-
. . . within 30 days the status of women will go back to a state much worse than it was before we got there
This is what happened when we pulled out of Vietnam, it is what happened with Pol Pot, and many other times & places
3
I get tired of people claiming we shouldn't judge other cultures because we don't understand them. This may sound arrogant and politically incorrect, but I think it is really simple. Humans are human no matter which culture they were born into. There isn't some mysterious cultural force that exists such that we "Westerners" can just never understand the complexities of why cultures would do heinous things. Is there any culture where you would think a man cutting off his wife's nose is okay? How about raping children? Do you think there is possibly some culture out there that has such specific intricacies unknown to you that makes it such that you couldn't judge whether or not children should be raped? No. In fact, we "Westerners" are very good judges of this sort of horrific behavior because, guess what? Lots of people used to be treated horribly and cruelly in our cultures too and we figured out it is WRONG. The problem is that in Afghanistan and other places in the world they still haven't figured this out.
78
This is nonsense, there is no good side to cutting off someone's nose. It is true that few in the West understand social conditions in Afghanistan, but none of that changes the inherent cruelty of backward rural cultures.
16
A culture can be altered only from the inside.
Pushing from outside only drives them together against what is alien to "them" against Other with us as Other this time.
We understand Other very well when we are uniting against it. It works the same the other way.
Of course we should support those inside attempting to do what we agree is right. It is difficult to "support" without crossing that line. Remember, that means we offend even those we think we are helping, as this author points out.
Also, the women we seek to help are themselves inside that culture, and they love their sons and husbands and many of their fathers. We won't get far with most women telling them that they love evil men, their own baby is evil.
We also won't get far telling them they are weak or inferior until they are more like us, more like the alien Other. That would not work here even if it was true, and it won't work there either.
Some of their cultural preferences which are not the same as ours really are their preferences. They get to have their own preferences. If we seek to deny that, they will not see us as helping them, nor want to be helped.
Given all that, this is actually very difficult. It does not get easier when we are so sure we are completely right, completely superior, and our (rather recent) ideas are the only possible ideas for others.
Pushing from outside only drives them together against what is alien to "them" against Other with us as Other this time.
We understand Other very well when we are uniting against it. It works the same the other way.
Of course we should support those inside attempting to do what we agree is right. It is difficult to "support" without crossing that line. Remember, that means we offend even those we think we are helping, as this author points out.
Also, the women we seek to help are themselves inside that culture, and they love their sons and husbands and many of their fathers. We won't get far with most women telling them that they love evil men, their own baby is evil.
We also won't get far telling them they are weak or inferior until they are more like us, more like the alien Other. That would not work here even if it was true, and it won't work there either.
Some of their cultural preferences which are not the same as ours really are their preferences. They get to have their own preferences. If we seek to deny that, they will not see us as helping them, nor want to be helped.
Given all that, this is actually very difficult. It does not get easier when we are so sure we are completely right, completely superior, and our (rather recent) ideas are the only possible ideas for others.
15
conclusion: The west should stop funding feminism and liberalism in muslim countries.
Totally agree with you Miss Shah
Totally agree with you Miss Shah
13
nice bit of irony there. Wonder if she caught it? Indeed, why would we want to fund such .. bologna?
1
This that some kind of a joke?
Having spent quite some time in Afghanistan caring for the burned mutilated bodies of Afghan women burned with gasoline by their mothers in law or the senior wife in addition to the beatings and mutilations by their men one comes to realize that the women themselves view this sort of behavior as reasonable as punishment for violating the standards of their society. The victims feel guilty for whatever they did and accept it. They are hard to interrogate.....they just clam up. If you send them back home they usually end up dead or back at the hospital with more gruesome injuries. After seeing so many of these cases it seemed to me that the best solution would be to give the women green cards and then the men would respect them since they would be worth something....like an eventual ticket to the US or Europe. Let the remaining men remain in AFG so they can fight it out and build a better society that someone would want to stay in. The current immigration policy......essentially only men going to Europe while American men of the same age go to AFG to fight for their country.......is insane.....
66
Thank you. Deeply moved and grateful for your caring and insights.
6
with all due respect to your work in Afg, what is this green card program in respect to Europe that you reference? you're getting things mixed up. and you make these odd comparisons that don't quite match reality.
Give the women green cards so that they could be useful to the men and get better treatment? What logic is this? If the Afghan men are more useful than the women to the U.S. government or non-government organizations, what would happen?
1
In almost its entirety, this column can be filed under the heading "racism of low expectations." You say, "They were just like I had been in my 20s." Really? Wikipedia seems to think that you attended Wellesley. For starters, you never once had to fear for your life, and in the (many) arenas where women's rights still are lagging behind in this country, you had a specific right to have your voice heard. I'm sorry, but the term "liberal" was initially coined to describe those who were dedicated to protecting and supporting the values of the secular enlightenment, which are universal. I'm glad that Afghan women sometimes find some meaning in their lives. The real story is how hard you had to work to discover this, and how efficiently the men in their society prevent them from showing it.
58
Well said sir.
4
Ms. Shah and most of her critics on this page are equally right and equally wrong-- partially. The reason is simple: Like the five blind men in an ancient fable, they are are all claiming to describe an elephant by merely touching one part of it. They are throwing around the word "Afghan women" without looking at them as a truly variegated half of the population. Economic class, ethnic or tribal affiliations, degrees of literacy and education, variations in the type and intensity of Islamic beliefs in a land and culture known for many local sub-patterns, and the like clearly affect Afghan women just as they affect men .
That said, the overriding point of both Ms Shah and several of the commenters is correct: Any change in the country's long-held beliefs and practices must be rooted in Afghan initiatives ,not imposed on them by any know-it-all outsiders no matter how well-meaning they may be. Thoughtful collaboration stemming from a lot of listening based on genuine mutual respect between the two sides alone can produce meaningful and enduring changes for the better.
That said, the overriding point of both Ms Shah and several of the commenters is correct: Any change in the country's long-held beliefs and practices must be rooted in Afghan initiatives ,not imposed on them by any know-it-all outsiders no matter how well-meaning they may be. Thoughtful collaboration stemming from a lot of listening based on genuine mutual respect between the two sides alone can produce meaningful and enduring changes for the better.
10
I recently read an article on humanitarian groups in Africa literally manipulating their advertisement materials to induce more sympathy from people, which translates to more donations. Pictures and clips showing children deprived of water, food and adequate shelter were carefully formulated images by the humanitarian workers, instructing how children should act when a camera is rolling.
I'm in no right to condemn what they did since the data showed that more disturbing an image is, more donations follow. Although the children on the poster may not be as desperate as portrayed, they can clearly benefit from helps from outside.
I can't decide whether this course of action should be encouraged or not. A famous axiom, 'Ends(more donations) justify the means(distortion of truth)', works in some cases but not in others.
I think the same applies to Afghanistan women. When media portrays the life of those women using only provoking images and narratives, people are sure to pay more attention. But when we see a glimpse of reality that clashes with what we've been told, we are in right to question how we should perceive and understand, as done by Bina Shah. She brought up a good point to remind ourselves that what we've seen and heard may not reflect reality.
I'm in no right to condemn what they did since the data showed that more disturbing an image is, more donations follow. Although the children on the poster may not be as desperate as portrayed, they can clearly benefit from helps from outside.
I can't decide whether this course of action should be encouraged or not. A famous axiom, 'Ends(more donations) justify the means(distortion of truth)', works in some cases but not in others.
I think the same applies to Afghanistan women. When media portrays the life of those women using only provoking images and narratives, people are sure to pay more attention. But when we see a glimpse of reality that clashes with what we've been told, we are in right to question how we should perceive and understand, as done by Bina Shah. She brought up a good point to remind ourselves that what we've seen and heard may not reflect reality.
7
Oh, yeah? One woman with her nose cut off was enough for me.
6
Sure hope the author checks in with her recently-wed poet friend when her husband takes his second bride, especially if she's a preteen.
In this PC world one may be labeled enthnocentrist or worse for saying the burka is, in and of itself, a sign of oppression.
But it must be said.
And one can extrapolate from that to this: When it comes to the rights of all its citizens, some societies are better than others. Some cultures, too.
In this PC world one may be labeled enthnocentrist or worse for saying the burka is, in and of itself, a sign of oppression.
But it must be said.
And one can extrapolate from that to this: When it comes to the rights of all its citizens, some societies are better than others. Some cultures, too.
76
When I lived in Afghanistan in the late sixties, my Pesce Corps friends and I would smile at the "World Travelers" who on brief visits passing through the country would speak with presumed authority and conviction about the Afghan people.
After living there for two years, I realized my knowledge and understanding of the culture was very limited and
incomplete. I was humbled by the complexity and heterogeneity. Non Afghans should be careful about their analysis of a culture that is vastly different from their own.
However well meaning, I have come to believe that generalizations about women in any culture are misplaced, misguided and border on cultural and social arrogance---unhelpful and sometimes dangerous.
After living there for two years, I realized my knowledge and understanding of the culture was very limited and
incomplete. I was humbled by the complexity and heterogeneity. Non Afghans should be careful about their analysis of a culture that is vastly different from their own.
However well meaning, I have come to believe that generalizations about women in any culture are misplaced, misguided and border on cultural and social arrogance---unhelpful and sometimes dangerous.
19
I understand your point, that people form opinions based on too little information.
But in the end, IF we are to take some kind of action in an effort to help, this action has to be based on the conclusions we've come to up to that point. If we wait for some kind of complete and perfect understanding before helping, we will be waiting forever.
Are you advocating we should do nothing until we have perfect understanding? If not, then what are you advocating? What should we do?
But in the end, IF we are to take some kind of action in an effort to help, this action has to be based on the conclusions we've come to up to that point. If we wait for some kind of complete and perfect understanding before helping, we will be waiting forever.
Are you advocating we should do nothing until we have perfect understanding? If not, then what are you advocating? What should we do?
4
Hey, please explain to me the nose-cut-off thing. I mean, if you're so "humbled" by a culture so "vastly different" from mine, then I'd so very much appreciate your point of view, your analysis.
Please, set us all straight, won't you?
Please, set us all straight, won't you?
3
Culture determines how one views the world and especially ones place in that perceived world. Does conditioning the mind through culture to accept cruelty, violence, and persecution justify the cruelty, violence and persecution? Is genital mutilation of girls really a right of passage into womanhood just because everyone else has been cut? Does claiming this is who I am mean the rest of the world should bug off?
Should the slaves have never been freed because they never expected to be freed? After emancipation, there weren't legions of slaves that wanted to hang around the plantation to be whipped at will. Certainly a very few had decent lives. Most others lived in pure hell. Once freedom became a reality, freedom suddenly became a hot commodity.
Never underestimate how vulnerable the human mind is to external pressures. Human beings have committed the most horrible and vile acts throughout history. All of it justified by belief, religion and culture. The cultural acceptance of victimization does not justify the victimization.
No, I don't think us Westerners have it wrong. Human rights are universal. Dignity is universal. Liberty is universal. Personal security is universal. We don't have it wrong at all.
Should the slaves have never been freed because they never expected to be freed? After emancipation, there weren't legions of slaves that wanted to hang around the plantation to be whipped at will. Certainly a very few had decent lives. Most others lived in pure hell. Once freedom became a reality, freedom suddenly became a hot commodity.
Never underestimate how vulnerable the human mind is to external pressures. Human beings have committed the most horrible and vile acts throughout history. All of it justified by belief, religion and culture. The cultural acceptance of victimization does not justify the victimization.
No, I don't think us Westerners have it wrong. Human rights are universal. Dignity is universal. Liberty is universal. Personal security is universal. We don't have it wrong at all.
117
Very well said. Very, very well said.
4
As I understand this Afghan woman not only do not want Western help, they resent it. As if Westerners were being imperialists with nothing but domination in mind. It will certainly be remembered when next we read of a ritual disfigurement or the honor killing of an Afghan woman; we'll remember that they are living their own lives and do not - in fact resent any show of concern or any aid or offer of aid from the West.
19
Slaves were full adult humans too. That doesn't mean they weren't completely oppressed and in need of assistance to remove the oppression. Same thing for these women.
41
Afghan male culture is brutal with entrenched pedophilia. Didn't anyone watch PBS's "The Dancing Boys of Afghanistan"? Read about "Bacha Bazi," http://foreignpolicy.com/2013/10/28/bacha-bazi-an-afghan-tragedy/
Children, little boys and girls are raped every day as part of their "normal" culture.
Is there anything to be proud of in either male or female Afghan culture?
Children, little boys and girls are raped every day as part of their "normal" culture.
Is there anything to be proud of in either male or female Afghan culture?
92
The British were very responsible for endi g the slave trade in the Americas. Should they have just stayed out of it or should they have interviened for nothing less than humanitarian reasons. There is just certain cruelties that do not belong on this planet and that certain cultures disagree is irrelevant. As human s everywhere, we need to stop it. Period.
54
Culture is what it is. Forgive me if I call it ugly by my standards. However, yes, stepping in from the outside and making fast changes? No, I am sorry, that will blow up in your face.
We can't fix the world. We can only be grateful if our corner of it is a little bit nicer.
Iraq was supposed to be made into a bastion of freedom and democracy. Never forget how bad that turned out.
We can't fix the world. We can only be grateful if our corner of it is a little bit nicer.
Iraq was supposed to be made into a bastion of freedom and democracy. Never forget how bad that turned out.
22
This gets at the heart of what many casual, socially feminist thinkers get wrong. Women are not prisoners of their own cultures. They are a part of them.
Culture is not some contraption invented in a closed room by men and then brought out fully formed to torment women. Women always have a hand in negotiating and crafting the structures that end up characterizing and constraining their lives.
Treating women as victims of the agreements they have entered into, and of the cultures of which they are co-authors, is the ultimate disrespect.
Culture is not some contraption invented in a closed room by men and then brought out fully formed to torment women. Women always have a hand in negotiating and crafting the structures that end up characterizing and constraining their lives.
Treating women as victims of the agreements they have entered into, and of the cultures of which they are co-authors, is the ultimate disrespect.
15
I disagree. Women can only be a part of crafting a culture when we have most of the same freedoms that men have. These Afghan women don't. It is like saying that a child in an abusive family is part of creating that situation. Hardly. No, women are not children, but we are, in general, physically weaker. Even a really fit woman is rarely a match for an untrained man in a fist fight. This means that when we are beaten up and raped and killed for not going along with "the culture" we can be kept under control. It may appear that these women are complicit in it, but they simply have no other choice if they want to live. Were slaves helping to negotiate the culture of the Unired States several hundred years ago? No. They were victims of it. Are these women slaves? Perhaps not, but they definitely don't have any freedom. If a 6 year old girl is forced to marry her uncle she doesn't have any freedom.
36
No women "negotiates" this kind of treatment in Afghan culture, or any other culture. Women have no say at all here, and no civil rights. They have not entered into any "agreements" ; those mores and cultural norms were brutally imposed on them from the time they were born. If they deviate in the slightest, they are punished horribly. There is no safe harbor, and no redress of wrongs against them in a court of law.
Actually, most cultures really have pretty much been determined by men. Through most of human history, "might makes right" has been the rule, with outcomes based on weapons and war.
When a culture treats half of its people like slaves, it is time to be honest enough to call it what it is, barbarism.
Actually, most cultures really have pretty much been determined by men. Through most of human history, "might makes right" has been the rule, with outcomes based on weapons and war.
When a culture treats half of its people like slaves, it is time to be honest enough to call it what it is, barbarism.
10
Would you argue thay in a population with more slaves than free people there is also such an 'agreement' that is in the same proportion decided by the slaves?
5
Thank you, Ms. Shah, for this important article. I remember when Benazir Bhutto and Indira Gandhi were democratically elected as leaders of countries whose sexual politics are still considered irremediably regressive by the West. It's not as though patriarchies ceased to rule when they were elected. Rather, their leadership spoke to the immense complexities of places in which women could be elected to the highest offices (more than once in each case) while crude forms of sexism prevailed elsewhere. Afghanistan is a similarly complex society, and as you point out, it is vital to figure out what Afghan women want, how they organize and express themselves.
Western feminism should certainly continue to help women in other countries, but I'm always bewildered by how little we learn about feminist organizations in other countries. There are many in India, Pakistan, and elsewhere, yet most of us couldn't name one. Who knew before reading your article that Afghanistan had a feminist newspaper?
It is also important for Western feminists to see that oppression here is not all that much different than oppression in other countries. Thousands of men commit brutal acts of domestic violence in the West. Is it really all that different when an Afghan man cuts off his wife's nose and an American man shoots his wife dead? Aren't those both honor killings? Or an Afghan man wants to marry a 6-year old and an American rapes a schoolchild? Aren't those both pedophile acts?
Western feminism should certainly continue to help women in other countries, but I'm always bewildered by how little we learn about feminist organizations in other countries. There are many in India, Pakistan, and elsewhere, yet most of us couldn't name one. Who knew before reading your article that Afghanistan had a feminist newspaper?
It is also important for Western feminists to see that oppression here is not all that much different than oppression in other countries. Thousands of men commit brutal acts of domestic violence in the West. Is it really all that different when an Afghan man cuts off his wife's nose and an American man shoots his wife dead? Aren't those both honor killings? Or an Afghan man wants to marry a 6-year old and an American rapes a schoolchild? Aren't those both pedophile acts?
12
There is a huge difference between acts of violence in our society andin Afghanistan. An American man who shoots his wife dead will be prosecuted for a crime and punished whereas the Afghan man may be hailed a hero. Our society condemns such violence, theirs not so much.
An Afghan man who wants to marry a 6 year old is not only perfectly able to do it but the community will attend and celebrate the wedding. The American who rapes a schoolchild will be prosecuted and punished. He will be reviled by the community and labelled a sex offender.
There is crime against women the world over but in our society, at least, we have made the decision that is not acceptable and is punishable by law. Afghanistan as a society is not there yet.
An Afghan man who wants to marry a 6 year old is not only perfectly able to do it but the community will attend and celebrate the wedding. The American who rapes a schoolchild will be prosecuted and punished. He will be reviled by the community and labelled a sex offender.
There is crime against women the world over but in our society, at least, we have made the decision that is not acceptable and is punishable by law. Afghanistan as a society is not there yet.
81
Dear sir,
Yes it is true that we have pedophiles and bad people every where but women in West are light years ahead compared to their Afghan sisters. There are no laws for rape in Afghanistan. If a women is raped it's considered adultery and she can be imprisoned for 15 years.
Yes it is true that we have pedophiles and bad people every where but women in West are light years ahead compared to their Afghan sisters. There are no laws for rape in Afghanistan. If a women is raped it's considered adultery and she can be imprisoned for 15 years.
56
I hope this is some kind of moral satire. A Modest Proposal maybe? Can anyone possibly think that women's rights are virtually the same in America and Afghanistan? I assume most readers can see the absurdity here, but just to be clear: in 1950, would you have said that a black man being hanged in Berlin by a gang of neo-nazis was "no different" than one being hanged by a lynch mob in Alabama? Of course not. One is a mainstream cultural practice, and one is a crime. All cultures are not equal; to say that women are no better off here than under medieval religious rule is to demean every feminist activist who has fought for equal rights in the West in the past 200 years. It's time to spread these values wherever humans can be found.
36
As a Humanist, my advice is to take what's good in that religious folklore & give up the rest. Free your mind.
"Until they become conscious they will never rebel, and until after they have rebelled they cannot become conscious". George Orwell
"Until they become conscious they will never rebel, and until after they have rebelled they cannot become conscious". George Orwell
13
People have wonderful ways of rationalizing their own oppression and disenfranchisement. "It is our culture", "It is God's will", "my husband's beatings are his ways of showing his love"...Justifications of slavery are as abhorrent coming from the slaves as they are coming from the masters. But I agree that we should not try to save people against their will. If Afghan women want to be stuffed into burkas, married at the age of six, or share their husband's affections with a second wife, let them. But don't expect me to respect their culture or to approve of their choices.
53
It's hard to support what amounts to an S&M culture...except in this culture there are no safe words and the Masochist is not the one in control....this is just a male dominated culture that believes in violent and cruel behavior and these uncivilized men should not enter the EU or the USA until they can behave like a western man.....all these cultural excuses are meaningless, law is law and their laws do not count in the west. I would think this would be major brainwashing and can it even be done? These men are not capable of controlling themselves in the company of women so why are they welcomed into the West?
2
Wow, this is beyond parody. "Feminist" attends conference paid for by the West, learns latest trendy Western academic term ("intersectional"), which she shares with other women from barbaric women-hating theocracies (there by the grace of Western grants), and then they all decide that the real problem is with the humanists who are trying to help brutally oppressed, raped, mutulated, sexually exploited, beaten and subjugated women.
Another triumph for 21st century "social justice", academic rhetoric, moral relativism, the apologists of fundamentalist Islam and an almost comical lack of self-awareness on the NYT Op-Ed page.
But a real loss for women and basic human rights.
Another triumph for 21st century "social justice", academic rhetoric, moral relativism, the apologists of fundamentalist Islam and an almost comical lack of self-awareness on the NYT Op-Ed page.
But a real loss for women and basic human rights.
123
Very well said.
4
Indeed! Well said.
4
How condescending you are to Ms. Shah and women outside the west! Women in third world countries have insisted, before second-wave feminist in the west, that gender intersects clan, caste, class, race, region, and nation. They don't learn anything from trendy western academics.
''while many female Afghan intellectuals left the country in a debilitating brain drain''-
Here lays part of the problem. The best and brightest flee for a society in which they can excel. This leaves the women who are least capable of progressing the human rights of females far behind in another century. I can only guess that they are also the wealthy elite who have experienced the way life should be in other countries, either at schools or special conferences funded by ''women's empowerment projects''. I do not believe for one second the poor, impoverished ones living in Afghanistan are happy about their places in society. If they are, they don't know of any better world. And sadly it's most certainly not available to them, ever.
Here lays part of the problem. The best and brightest flee for a society in which they can excel. This leaves the women who are least capable of progressing the human rights of females far behind in another century. I can only guess that they are also the wealthy elite who have experienced the way life should be in other countries, either at schools or special conferences funded by ''women's empowerment projects''. I do not believe for one second the poor, impoverished ones living in Afghanistan are happy about their places in society. If they are, they don't know of any better world. And sadly it's most certainly not available to them, ever.
26
Well, you and Ms. Shah now can agree on the UNINTENDED consequences of open borders. If you can leave a problem, likely you'd leave rather than stay and fight for decades with maybe a little to show. For long, trendy western elites have condemned unruly nationalist in the third world, and finally get close to the goal. Hint: there might not be India or Pakistan had the Nehrus and Jinnahs sought refuge in the U.S.
The West can't impose civility on Afghanistan. Only Afghani MEN can do that.
But the sad fact is that we Americans wouldn't impose civility on Afghanistan even if we could because all we Americans care about are ourselves and our interests and a civil Afghanistan isn't needed to suit our needs.
But the sad fact is that we Americans wouldn't impose civility on Afghanistan even if we could because all we Americans care about are ourselves and our interests and a civil Afghanistan isn't needed to suit our needs.
1
Considering how feminists treat Ayaan Hirsi Ali and other women who have suffered under, and now criticize Islam, I would agree with the author that the point has often been missed. Muslim women are strong, but they are also fighting the mountain of misogyny that is Islam. Reading the Quran or listening to "scholars" interpretations of the Quran is the only reasoning I need to understand why women are oppressed in the Muslim world. Islam needs to be neutered just like Christianity has been.
46
I hear Bina Shah loud and clear, and I agree Westerners ought not to impose Western ideas about women's freedom on people in non-Western cultures. As far as I can see, this almost always makes things worse.
That said, where does she think modern ideas about the rights of women, their fundamental freedom, and their autonomy originate? Certainly not from within Afghanistan.
That said, where does she think modern ideas about the rights of women, their fundamental freedom, and their autonomy originate? Certainly not from within Afghanistan.
26
I agree that liberation for Afghan women must come from themselves, just as liberation for American women did. Westerners who try to help Afghans unavoidably patronize. And Afghans inevitably associate western help with influences, such as hookups and pornography, that they do not want and cannot respect. Our military invades their country and kills people. Foreigners who entered our country and killed people would outrage us, even if they only killed terrorists. (And we kill so many more as well.)
We should not be so arrogant and think that our actions can help the intimate relations among people in another country. Our actions have consequences that we cannot anticipate.
The road to hell is paved with good intentions.
We should not be so arrogant and think that our actions can help the intimate relations among people in another country. Our actions have consequences that we cannot anticipate.
The road to hell is paved with good intentions.
11
You have just given a good reason why not one more American life should be wasted in a place like this.
3
Ms. Shah wants to have her cake, and eat it, too.
How well were Afghan women doing before the Western, feminist, do gooders showed up ?
Her complaints about the outsiders, with their different values and traditions,
have, I'm sure, great validity.
But her smug assurances that things will get and be better, if only the local women's ( meaning her own, to a great extent - who voted to make her their spokeswoman? ) decisions prevailed, are based on no credible evidence.
There is no answer to women's plight in these Allah forsaken dystopias, without the abandonment of their mysogynistic and archaic beliefs. Allah is no friend to females.
Let's not hold our breath.
And maybe these well meaning, but overbearing foreigners, can save their money for more promising causes.
Ingrates like Ms. Shaw can seek some Golden Geese where her virtue and expertise would be more acknowledged and appreciated.
How well were Afghan women doing before the Western, feminist, do gooders showed up ?
Her complaints about the outsiders, with their different values and traditions,
have, I'm sure, great validity.
But her smug assurances that things will get and be better, if only the local women's ( meaning her own, to a great extent - who voted to make her their spokeswoman? ) decisions prevailed, are based on no credible evidence.
There is no answer to women's plight in these Allah forsaken dystopias, without the abandonment of their mysogynistic and archaic beliefs. Allah is no friend to females.
Let's not hold our breath.
And maybe these well meaning, but overbearing foreigners, can save their money for more promising causes.
Ingrates like Ms. Shaw can seek some Golden Geese where her virtue and expertise would be more acknowledged and appreciated.
58
It is strange, truly strange, that any woman (or man for that matter) would cling to a particular way of dressing as representing much of anything.
The lack of flexibility on this front - for reasons that are never explained rationally, but excused as being "cultural" (whatever that means) and therefore immune from criticism - reflects a timidity on the part of the individual.
If a person is going for a hike (in which case they should wear hiking garb) or painting a room (in which case they should wear coveralls) or refereeing a basketball game (in which case they should wear stripes), form follows function.
Because to do so has a purpose. It aligns logically with the activity that is undertaken. When "culture" dictates what one wears - or how one behaves - it is spared from being examined.
There should be no magical "pass" for the past.
The lack of flexibility on this front - for reasons that are never explained rationally, but excused as being "cultural" (whatever that means) and therefore immune from criticism - reflects a timidity on the part of the individual.
If a person is going for a hike (in which case they should wear hiking garb) or painting a room (in which case they should wear coveralls) or refereeing a basketball game (in which case they should wear stripes), form follows function.
Because to do so has a purpose. It aligns logically with the activity that is undertaken. When "culture" dictates what one wears - or how one behaves - it is spared from being examined.
There should be no magical "pass" for the past.
22
An incredibly simplistic article. Two women, with obviously enlightened families, were educated and confident- therefore every woman has that opportunity? The whole thing sounds like an apologist ramble.
144
I disagree with this op-ed in its entirety. I am a man, live in a developed and rich country, and have never met an Afghan woman. So what? I still know (and am outraged by the fact) that Afghan women are human, are deserving of all the basic rights, freedoms and dignities that all humans deserve, and that a large number of Afghan women are denied a vast number of those freedoms and dignities by an oppressive and cruel male patriarchy. I can also reasonably postulate that Afghan women want to enjoy those freedoms and dignities, or WOULD want to if they were reasonably informed of the possibility for them to exist, which they may not be. And I know that if Afghan society were to be left to its own devices, the chances for women to gain those rights in the foreseeable future are essentially nil.
To summarize, whatever point the author of this piece was trying to make is either flat-out incorrect or is presented in such a muddled way that it was completely lost on me.
To summarize, whatever point the author of this piece was trying to make is either flat-out incorrect or is presented in such a muddled way that it was completely lost on me.
130
It has long been a problem that adults in so-called "developed" (or, formerly, "civilized") countries tend to see adults in the so-called Third World as less capable than they and, therefore, needing outside intervention to solve their problems for them. Though often (not always) well-intentioned, this attitude along with a failure to fully consult the people themselves often leads to failure in bringing about meaningful change.
Western feminists, though with good intentions, often make the same mistake. They measure the lives of women elsewhere by our cultural standards; they assume that ALL women desire the same patterns of freedom that we have; they judge the lives of those other women by their own lives. As the article notes, Muslim women do not necessarily find the head scarf (or even veil) oppressive. While they deplore abuse as much as any Western woman, they may measure what that means in different terms. Certainly they are capable of standing up for themselves with courage and strength.
Here is an excellent collection of essays BY Arab women about how they see their lives and what they want:
Arab Women: Between Defiance and Restraint Paperback (2002)
by Suha Sabbagh (Editor)
Western feminists, though with good intentions, often make the same mistake. They measure the lives of women elsewhere by our cultural standards; they assume that ALL women desire the same patterns of freedom that we have; they judge the lives of those other women by their own lives. As the article notes, Muslim women do not necessarily find the head scarf (or even veil) oppressive. While they deplore abuse as much as any Western woman, they may measure what that means in different terms. Certainly they are capable of standing up for themselves with courage and strength.
Here is an excellent collection of essays BY Arab women about how they see their lives and what they want:
Arab Women: Between Defiance and Restraint Paperback (2002)
by Suha Sabbagh (Editor)
20
I am sure you are correct when you say the women of Afghanistan measure their lives differently than Western women.
If you got beaten every time you took your head scarf off, you might come to view the scarf as a good thing, a protection against beatings.
Maybe the women of countries like Afghanistan don't understand the Western concept of freedom because they have never experienced anything like it in their entire lives.
If you got beaten every time you took your head scarf off, you might come to view the scarf as a good thing, a protection against beatings.
Maybe the women of countries like Afghanistan don't understand the Western concept of freedom because they have never experienced anything like it in their entire lives.
10
Ms. Shah, thank you for sharing your experience and perspective so eloquently.
One thing just out at me.
"Indeed, the continuing violence against women has been fueled in great part by resentment from men — and many women — over a speedy agenda for change that they see as forced upon them by outsiders."
This sounds to me like exactly the same kind of justification used by Muslim men to force women into the burqa. "We cannot be blamed for our actions if you insist on exposing your hair, your faces, your ankles..."
This is a serious sickness at the heart of too many Muslim-dominant places. Men, or more realistically, the boys (the next generation of men) have got to be released from this weak, hypocritical mindset. They must learn self-control and take full responsibility for their actions.
(Please don't misunderstand. I am in no way suggesting other places don't have their own very serious gender-related problems. I'm just focusing on the subject of this article... Also, I'm also writing from experience, having lived and traveled in several Muslim-dominant areas for several years.)
One thing just out at me.
"Indeed, the continuing violence against women has been fueled in great part by resentment from men — and many women — over a speedy agenda for change that they see as forced upon them by outsiders."
This sounds to me like exactly the same kind of justification used by Muslim men to force women into the burqa. "We cannot be blamed for our actions if you insist on exposing your hair, your faces, your ankles..."
This is a serious sickness at the heart of too many Muslim-dominant places. Men, or more realistically, the boys (the next generation of men) have got to be released from this weak, hypocritical mindset. They must learn self-control and take full responsibility for their actions.
(Please don't misunderstand. I am in no way suggesting other places don't have their own very serious gender-related problems. I'm just focusing on the subject of this article... Also, I'm also writing from experience, having lived and traveled in several Muslim-dominant areas for several years.)
115
it certainly makes sense that support for Afghan women also involves working with men to effect change in the environment and the lives of women. It is also preferable for Afghan women to be the agents of their liberation and freedom from murder and mutilation by men. However, the idea that NGO's are getting rich and fat on these projects carried out by folks who put their lives in peril is ridiculous. Is the author saying that these well- meaning misguided organizations should pack -up ? it seems unlikely the organizations that support the efforts of her friends will continue with the Taliban or other profoundly conservative structures in control. in greater control.
21
When it comes to relations between women in the west and women in the third world, the former automatically tend toward what they accuse western men of: "mansplaining." That has gone on for at least a century. Tragic!
This is what I do not understand. At all.
How can you say that a people, that are forced to hide, treated as property, traded, sold, made to marry before they are 10, are cut, attacked with acid, and belong to the husband, how can you say that these people are doing just fine, and the West just does not understand?
It bends logic and reason to even begin to try to understand how a woman, watching this happen, can turn around and say 'they are just misunderstood'.
The women in this muslim country are being suppressed, and it's ok only because some priest reading from some holy book says it is the way it should be.
But this is not OK. At all.
I really hope that someday the living conditions get better for these women and girls, they deserve better than this.
How can you say that a people, that are forced to hide, treated as property, traded, sold, made to marry before they are 10, are cut, attacked with acid, and belong to the husband, how can you say that these people are doing just fine, and the West just does not understand?
It bends logic and reason to even begin to try to understand how a woman, watching this happen, can turn around and say 'they are just misunderstood'.
The women in this muslim country are being suppressed, and it's ok only because some priest reading from some holy book says it is the way it should be.
But this is not OK. At all.
I really hope that someday the living conditions get better for these women and girls, they deserve better than this.
210
"...they’d come to Konya through a foreign grant, and their projects at home were funded by international organizations."
Sheesh, you can't have it both ways - accept foreign funding and expertise but turn around and suggest the West doesn't understand Afghan ways and shouldn't meddle. Both women should have been funded by Afghanistan
private sector or Afghanistan Government in order to attend the conference.
Sheesh, you can't have it both ways - accept foreign funding and expertise but turn around and suggest the West doesn't understand Afghan ways and shouldn't meddle. Both women should have been funded by Afghanistan
private sector or Afghanistan Government in order to attend the conference.
83
Wonder how vibrant, free and alive she would have been with a few of those charming and enlightned taliban, or afghani men in general, around....
99
Inspiring stories but no facts. narrow view. Sure "...she insisted that other Afghan women are now able to speak out for themselves, with the help of supportive international organizations." And how many women are in this group? I doubt that a new Taliban influenced government will allow ''international organizations' to achieve much or even continue.
22
I think this op-ed presumes a level of knowledge about Afghanistan that most Westerners don't have.
What is the author complaining about, exactly? The main complaint is about “women’s empowerment projects" being run in Afghanistan. I know nothing about those, and I suspect few readers do. Even for those who *do* know about them, what is the author's advice for improving them?
I think of women in Afghanistan as people like me living under a horribly repressive regime that targets them for oppression. Obviously some of them will be more activist than others, some of them agree or disagree with the Taliban more than others.
I don't think I learned anything about women in Afghanistan after reading this op-ed.
What is the author complaining about, exactly? The main complaint is about “women’s empowerment projects" being run in Afghanistan. I know nothing about those, and I suspect few readers do. Even for those who *do* know about them, what is the author's advice for improving them?
I think of women in Afghanistan as people like me living under a horribly repressive regime that targets them for oppression. Obviously some of them will be more activist than others, some of them agree or disagree with the Taliban more than others.
I don't think I learned anything about women in Afghanistan after reading this op-ed.
50
I think what the author is trying to get at is that many of the women's empowerment organizations that went into Afghanistan went in with little idea of what Afghan women actually wanted, not having asked them directly.
This is a recurring problem with humanitarian aid. Western organizations go in believing they know what is best, and try to make changes. Instead, they should first engage in a conversation with local people to determine what they want and how the "west" can support them in their journey.
This is a recurring problem with humanitarian aid. Western organizations go in believing they know what is best, and try to make changes. Instead, they should first engage in a conversation with local people to determine what they want and how the "west" can support them in their journey.
41
The book Toxic Charity by Richard Lupton addresses some of these issues.
4
What the West got wrong was the delusion that occupying a country for 15 years and spending more than a trillion dollars would make much difference in terms of women and minority rights, health care, public security, literacy and economic advancement. After al this time and investment, Afghanistan still at the bottom of the world's countries in economic development, literacy, infant death rate.
I suspect the few Afghanistan women who are feeling more empowered are from the model classes, not the rural poor.
You can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear.
I suspect the few Afghanistan women who are feeling more empowered are from the model classes, not the rural poor.
You can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear.
37
The Afghan women had best take care of themselves, because sooner or later the US military will be gone and it seems obvious to any reader that the Taliban will retake control of the country from the current government.
49
The reason we do not leave, is because hey are already at the door, and if we pull out, the country falls the next day. This is known.
7
Thank you for this insight. Over the last 20+ years, I have worked with Muslim women in several countries through State Department-funded programs. I have not worked in Afghanistan, but we in the West have similar perceptions of women throughout the Middle East and the Maghreb. I was astonished, and heartened, by the strength and spirit of the women I met - in abayas and hijab, yes, but with a keen understanding of the complexity of their situation and a tool chest of strategies and tactics that were working to give them some power.
I agree: Too often, well-intended "women's empowerment projects" are designed to "teach" Western answers to the wrong questions. And we forget that because poor rural women are uneducated doesn't mean they are stupid. I especially remember a woman in northern Nigeria - years before Boko Haram and the horrors that are happening there today - taking my hand and saying, "Your country doesn't understand that we have our own ways of managing the men and working to make things better for ourselves and our families."
I agree: Too often, well-intended "women's empowerment projects" are designed to "teach" Western answers to the wrong questions. And we forget that because poor rural women are uneducated doesn't mean they are stupid. I especially remember a woman in northern Nigeria - years before Boko Haram and the horrors that are happening there today - taking my hand and saying, "Your country doesn't understand that we have our own ways of managing the men and working to make things better for ourselves and our families."
21
This 'hints' of a silent revolution .. one that should include education of the children - boys and girls ... and over time - maybe - the boys will grow up to be real men and respect their mothers, sisters, wives (multiple) and daughters - making for a better world. However - the Afghan men have proven to be as hard headed and hearted as the rocks that make up their mountains - God help us...
27
Interesting that you mention it was BEFORE Boko Haram.
How many sons of those women who have their "own ways of managing the men" are now part of Boko Haram, unleashing unspeakable cruelty?
If we outsiders are going to get involved AT ALL, then we must do it with extreme commitment, for the long term. Because the only lasting solution must include the education of a GENERATION of boys, growing up with a very different idea about the roles and responsibilities of men and women in a healthy society.
How many sons of those women who have their "own ways of managing the men" are now part of Boko Haram, unleashing unspeakable cruelty?
If we outsiders are going to get involved AT ALL, then we must do it with extreme commitment, for the long term. Because the only lasting solution must include the education of a GENERATION of boys, growing up with a very different idea about the roles and responsibilities of men and women in a healthy society.
47
And how's that going?
16