In looking at "The High Life" bar chart, I don't see healthcare in the picture. My observation tells me that the industry is already gearing for that before Medicare for All will become an inevitable reality. If one considers cosmetic surgeries and dermatological enhancements healthcare, then this has already been projected by the market makers to have major growth at 8% through 2019. The skin product industry alone is currently about $107 billions. Globally the percentage of people who are 60+ will double in 35 years (from 841 million in 2013 to more than 2 billions by 2050). The spending will also be coming from the US baby-boomers, as they are set to retire, plan to live at least another 30+ years, with plenty of savings and an estimated $12 trillion transfer of wealth from the war generation. The leisure industry will also be expected to see major growth. Even for Obamacare, in trying to make you understand what you need to purchase based on your actual risks, is still class-based. This is hidden in the oversimplification of various colors of the plans (i.e. SIlver, Platinum) while in reality healthcare is never that simple. It is more intertwined, less discretionary, more likely involved sharing and less of individual preference or taste, more culturally based. The hoi polloi may not think leisure is a right, but most do for healthcare. Regardless, the market will do what it wants to do wherever there are opportunities for growth - just the same for the cruise industry.
9
Big deal- it's like whining that carmakers have luxury models for those who can afford them, while the poor have to drive econo-boxes. Whoopee. First World Problems.
15
Cruise ships are awful. Airlines are awful. Even first class is not what it use to be. I drive to my vacation spots in recent years except past year flew to British Isles on United ---what a sardine can !!! But upon arriving rented a car and drove all around Ireland, Scotland and England though people were trying to encourage me to get commuter airline --- no way ! Unfortunately there is no real middle category (business class ?). Anyway let the ultra rich stay where they are --- I know some ultra rich and they are very monetary wise conservative --dont think they would pay for such gilded amenities. I only had a AMEX platinum card to turn in -- the 600 airport lounges must be on inter planetary travel because could not get into one with that card and overall a useless expense since American Express just isnt represented in Major World capitols anymore. AMEX black card must be the segregator -- wont be getting that . . . .
11
Despite the constantly repeated mantra that the American middle class is finished, this ship is floating proof that they're doing fine -- it's just that some of them are doing better than others. The modern mega cruise ship is a thoroughly middle-class institution: powered by envy, gluttony, sloth, love of convenience, lack of sophistication and/or fear of the unknown. I'm sure the people in the Haven think of themselves as middle class, too. Spiritually speaking, they're basically right; it's just that they have more money.
22
I hate cruse ships! I will never go on another one, they stink...like stale gym lockers and wet carpet and the outside isn't any better, smells like moldy plastic...even the shower water smelled disgusting.
I don't see all the fuss, fewer and fewer people can afford to even take time off from work now, much less afford a vacation. Rich people have their own cruise ships so that they never have to encounter the Hoi polloi, I doubt that many of them will be clamoring for a berth on one of those floating casinos.
I don't see all the fuss, fewer and fewer people can afford to even take time off from work now, much less afford a vacation. Rich people have their own cruise ships so that they never have to encounter the Hoi polloi, I doubt that many of them will be clamoring for a berth on one of those floating casinos.
13
Currently have just booked a cruise in NCL for November and am seriously thinking of cancelling. Bad enough the very wealthy have outpaced the middle class in income by percentage but this separation by class is too much to swallow.
So the 1%'s don't want to mingle with the peons? It is this mindset that is causing so much acrimony and resentment!
Fine the 1% want to live in their ivory towers but to divorce themselves from the real world is a mistake. And we, as a society, should strive to communicate, live and co-exist without these barriers because we all lose something in the separation.
So the 1%'s don't want to mingle with the peons? It is this mindset that is causing so much acrimony and resentment!
Fine the 1% want to live in their ivory towers but to divorce themselves from the real world is a mistake. And we, as a society, should strive to communicate, live and co-exist without these barriers because we all lose something in the separation.
20
said Alex Dichter, a director at McKinsey who works with major airlines. “A lot of brands use products like these as an aspirational tool, and class segregation can create something to which people can aspire.”
Alex Dichter, you my friend are a genius. The increasing income equality in the USA should not be something we look down upon, but rather an aspirational tool designed to encourage the poor and downtrodden to work a bit harder, steal a bit more, and manipulate a little better like the .1% brethren. Perhaps then they will be able to afford the Haven and we will achieve a true Utopia.
Alex Dichter, you my friend are a genius. The increasing income equality in the USA should not be something we look down upon, but rather an aspirational tool designed to encourage the poor and downtrodden to work a bit harder, steal a bit more, and manipulate a little better like the .1% brethren. Perhaps then they will be able to afford the Haven and we will achieve a true Utopia.
20
One of the big points missed by the author is that when these "1%" are huddled together, they get to meet the others in their caste. Business gets transacted, deals get done, people get sponsored for exclusive country clubs, etc. Same reason I always tried to fly first class until the early 2000's when road warriors starting using their points for first class seats their four-year old noisy kids.
Frankly, I don't know a superwealthy person today who would shell out $30000 to be encapsulated within a ship. They would charter their own boat, borrow a friend's yacht or fly to a private island for a week.
Frankly, I don't know a superwealthy person today who would shell out $30000 to be encapsulated within a ship. They would charter their own boat, borrow a friend's yacht or fly to a private island for a week.
26
How about a 25% luxary sales tax on this nonsense ,We could use the money to pay for, I don't know, free collage ,or sayUniversal health care. Plus the idea of an exclusive resort in Hati ,just sounds OBSCENCE to me. One of the poorest places on the planet ,I say that deserves a 100% luxary tax . The money could be used for ,ah say feeding people who dont have food
31
The rich don't understand how poor they are. They are surrounded by people who suck up to them, by people who want to marry them or kidnap their children, by hangers-on who hope some wealth will magically attach to themselves. Over time, the rich never hear the truth. They never hear "no." They never are told their poop doesn't smell bad. Let the rich luxuriate in their gilded ghettos. I prefer life among the proles.
30
I'm not worried at the first classers being hissed at. I'm worried about revolution. Given the ungodly number of guns in this country, they won't be coming with pitchforks.
36
Traditionally cruising has been a fairly inexpensive vacation for our dwindling/very wrung out paychecks. (Yet it is on the backs of low paid/long hour workers that makes it such a deal.) I don't blame the cruise lines for chasing their next big profit center, however the reason that they are chasing a profit center farther up the ladder is that corporate America has squeezed jobs, wages, benefits, etc in such a way that middle American can no longer afford to vacation like they once did. What are all of these companies going to do when everyone's turnip had dried up? (i.e. Walmart partly hasn't done well because foodstamps have been cut, thus cutting a profit center for Walmart.)
17
could they not find a single female economist or subject matter expert to quote for this article?
17
If I were a 'special' passenger on that Norwegian Cruise vessel I'd immediately want to be apprised about their evacuation procedures, especially in case of a fire. These cabins are most likely the furthest away from the exit. In general, elevators are taken out of service. Do the people in 'steerage' have to wait for the 'aristocracy' to be rescued first?
19
Why would anyone who could afford better even step aboard a ship like this. It's like having a choice spot on the Loveboat.
22
In the Age of Privilege, Not Everyone is in the Same Boat. That's because money allows one to 'opt out' of the daily grind involved in navigating the bureaucracies we create which in turn operate to keep as with our backs to the grindstone. I don't need to take a cruise with exclusive access to overly salty food and the company of people who have more money than they know what to do with. I need to live in a world where people matter, where access to basic health, shelter and education are the cornerstone of what our government and civil society is concerned with. Then we can get on with how we choose to spend out time and money.
21
The problem isn't necessarily offering these extra services, but nickel and diming other passengers for what should be included in the cruise fare. For example making specialty restaurants a la carte instead of a flat fee, while cutting back on service and quality of the dining rooms and buffets. I don't get this concept when there are luxury lines that cater to these higher paying passengers while offering the same high level of service and exclusivity to everyone on board. Sure pay more and offered more perks, but don't make other paying passengers feel bad or cheated for their hard earned vacation.
8
Why anyone would be willing to spend all that extra cash on being pampered in a floating norovirus incubator is beyond me. I've been on one cruise in my life and that was enough for me. Too many people, not enough time in ports, constant fleecing ... not for me. The REAL rich scoff at this kind of stuff, I'm sure. Why give up the yacht and private mooring in the Bahamas for this? Ketchup sandwiches are for the little people. At least they're getting their vegetables.
32
Now I see why people don't get that a $5000,00 deductible that is currently part of so many health insurance policies - is onerous to the average American. $5000.00 is around the price of an "ordinary cabin".
17
What the article and most here fail to acknowledge or understand is that those in the "cheap" seats - wherever they may be found: in the air, on cruise ships, the Broadway show - are subsidizing entire industries. The airlines, for example, would not be able to afford, or be willing to cut their profits were they unable to overfill the "cheap" seats to cover costs and thereby give the wealthiest greater benefits and services. So, once again, it isn't merely the rich being able to pay for the better life, but the rich living off the middle class.
25
You are 100% wrong. The business class seats generate the vast (as in 80%) of the profits of the airlines. Actually, many airlines would extend their business class if at all possible, they just don't have the planes needed to service all the economy class seats needed. Same thing for cruise lines, the guy paying $10,000 for his cabin is infinitely more profitable than the guy paying $1,800. The guy paying $1,800 might leave $600 net profit, the guy paying $10,000 will leave $7,000 profit.
You are so completely wrong on this.
You are so completely wrong on this.
16
So the rich who already have more money than everyone else are grabbing even more money for themselves leaving the rest of us with even less?
The French created a very effect cure for runaway greed over 200 years ago.
It's called the guillotine.
The French created a very effect cure for runaway greed over 200 years ago.
It's called the guillotine.
45
I drink a beer of two, and smoke a cigar with my buddies at the local watering hole on a Saturday afternoon after a long hard week of work. The thought of going on a cruise is light years away. Once a year we make it down to the ball game in Philly and then feast on cheese steaks. And if possible we may be able to spent a weekend at the shore.
That is more than a lot of folks can do and I have come to peace with it. It is know as LIFE and as has been said: "That's that."
That is more than a lot of folks can do and I have come to peace with it. It is know as LIFE and as has been said: "That's that."
28
When I was in Guatemala there were enormous lines
of people trying to obtain papers to get to the US.
Our guide told us this was an an everyday occurrence.
How do you think they feel about the people who
skip the line, never wait in turn and cross the border? Who gets rewarded for doing it the right way?
of people trying to obtain papers to get to the US.
Our guide told us this was an an everyday occurrence.
How do you think they feel about the people who
skip the line, never wait in turn and cross the border? Who gets rewarded for doing it the right way?
10
While one can read pretty dumb comments like these:
“We needed to fill the Haven by getting the right people on the ship,” said Mr. Sheehan, who stepped down as chief executive last year. “When the masses overwhelmed the group in the Haven, they didn’t have the experience they were looking for.”
If you think about it, this is the true democratization of wealth; you get to spend your money on whatever luxury makes sense to you.
You don't like cruises... don't go, skip the angst; you don't mind (like I don't) sitting 6 hours on an economy aisle seat... don't pay business. You do care about being surrounded by dead trees and skinned cows in your car, get wood and leather as an option.
Ultimately, the people who do not have the money would not have the experience in any case and it is great to realize that one can choose where to squander one's funds.
“We needed to fill the Haven by getting the right people on the ship,” said Mr. Sheehan, who stepped down as chief executive last year. “When the masses overwhelmed the group in the Haven, they didn’t have the experience they were looking for.”
If you think about it, this is the true democratization of wealth; you get to spend your money on whatever luxury makes sense to you.
You don't like cruises... don't go, skip the angst; you don't mind (like I don't) sitting 6 hours on an economy aisle seat... don't pay business. You do care about being surrounded by dead trees and skinned cows in your car, get wood and leather as an option.
Ultimately, the people who do not have the money would not have the experience in any case and it is great to realize that one can choose where to squander one's funds.
9
1 One of the best comments here!
Life is about experiences, your ability to appreciate those moments in time should have very little to do with money. If you have the money to separate yourself and family from others on the same trip, go ahead and buy the ability to experience the trip in that manner. Who's to say that your experience will be better than someone who didn't pay extra? At best, you will have a great time and memories that will fill your days (money well spent). At worst, your enjoyment and recollection of the event(s) will be weighed by the corresponding dollar value of such (waste of money). Won't that be true for every single traveler on board, regardless of their expense?
The only absolute here will be the amount you spend vs the amount others spend.
Life is about experiences, your ability to appreciate those moments in time should have very little to do with money. If you have the money to separate yourself and family from others on the same trip, go ahead and buy the ability to experience the trip in that manner. Who's to say that your experience will be better than someone who didn't pay extra? At best, you will have a great time and memories that will fill your days (money well spent). At worst, your enjoyment and recollection of the event(s) will be weighed by the corresponding dollar value of such (waste of money). Won't that be true for every single traveler on board, regardless of their expense?
The only absolute here will be the amount you spend vs the amount others spend.
3
It is a misguided thoughts that ordinary people will envy the pampered rich 1%. For one thing, I rather enjoy the diversity of people than the monolithic species. On second thought, I enjoy travel by exploring and learning new things rather than being served and advised by paid consultants.
13
As someone who could actually afford this idiocy I find it interesting that why anyone would spend $30,000 on a cruise when you can take an amazing vacation to anywhere in the world staying at top flight hotels and enjoying amazing meals without getting sea sick and dealing with 4000 other passengers we recently spent two weeks in Italy flying business class from Chicago staying at 1000 euro hotels and did not comment me near $30.000 in expenses
23
I agree. It's a great dream of mine to become wealthy because I think I would be really good at spending money the "right" way. Alas, I have not yet become rich or famous and people with more money continue to squander it in incredibly stupid ways.
11
The author should have done some maritime history. The facts aren't right. Michael Bayley describing classes aboard passengers cruise ships or liners as un-America is way off base. Classes aboard ships lasted way after the Titanic. Into the 1970s. The SS United States had first, cabin and tourist. Same for the Queen Mary and Queen Elizabeth. The SS France had first and tourist right up to the time the French Lines pulled it from service in 1974. Americans weren't protesting because you paid for a certain level of service. The Queen Mary never cruised... except for her final voyage. The other great liners were all first class when were cruising. They served Beluga Caviar to all passengers. What NCL has done taken a one class ship and offered sort of a "first class" plus three other classes... star, sky and sea class. Looking at the linen and cutlery for a meal in their online ad for Royal Class... it ain't first class.
7
From the photo, it looks like the Haven made deck space more valuable than lifeboats.
9
There is a logical flaw in this article, namely, that the wealthy spend more than the less-rich. In fact, how much money one spends is independent of how much money they have in the bank.
Many wealthy people become that way because they are frugal in their spending. The legendary, and legendarily wealthy, inventor Ron Popeil famously boasts about flying Coach. Meanwhile, some individuals spend ostentatiously on flashy products and services but have a relatively modest or even minimal net worth.
In short, how much money someone spends is not necessarily an indication of how rich they are.
Many wealthy people become that way because they are frugal in their spending. The legendary, and legendarily wealthy, inventor Ron Popeil famously boasts about flying Coach. Meanwhile, some individuals spend ostentatiously on flashy products and services but have a relatively modest or even minimal net worth.
In short, how much money someone spends is not necessarily an indication of how rich they are.
14
A money-based caste system was prevalent in the Roman Empire for three centuries, till it fell. In Bourbon France, for centuries, as well. We are in the era of "surprise and delight" - ephemera and chimeras based on hyper social media. No egalitarian dream exists in the Pax Americana, the American Empire of our time. Privileged treatment of the very wealthy may provide us with a billionaire President in November. The high life today for the richest Americans ends the same way it has always ended - on the wrong side of the daisies with upturned boots on Boot Hill! Nelson Schwartz's riff on today's Animal Farm was fascinating, but one wonders about the first crash of the Crystal Cruise customized Boeing 777 that will ferry ultra-rich passengers on a 14 or 28 day trip around the world. Sounds like a trip on the unsinkable Titanic. Distinctions between classes do not mean diddly to thinking human beings. Alas the population of thinking human beings is shrinking as America circles the drain of its existence. The extremely affluent pampered Americans targeted by cruise companies and luxury goods companies are just looking to be validated as richer than thee or me.
7
What's enough? The earth is facing exhaustion.
16
I too am happen you can start a business and become wealthy however open borders, cheap labor, and unfair trade deals are working for the elites and not the rest of us.
9
The unintended benefit of this is that ordinary cruise passengers can avoid the insufferable Haven passengers. Few things are more annoying than waiting in a line with entitled rich people. Another thing I found amusing about the article is that wealthy people incorporate cruises, Sea World, and Disney parks into their vacations, all activities I assumed were plebeian. From what I can tell, this newly domineering caste is made up of foreigners and the nouveau riche, not the bluebloods we tend to associate with exorbitant wealth.
The sad thing is that this emerging caste system is not relegated to luxury and travel purchases, but is apparent in every sector of the economy, from grocery stores to public universities.
The sad thing is that this emerging caste system is not relegated to luxury and travel purchases, but is apparent in every sector of the economy, from grocery stores to public universities.
13
Hmmmmm.
Fortunately, I do NOT do cruises.
Nor will I ever.
Let them eat their own cake but I'm not giving them a penny.
Fortunately, I do NOT do cruises.
Nor will I ever.
Let them eat their own cake but I'm not giving them a penny.
10
"[Wealthy clients] are looking for constant validation that they are a higher-value customer," says the Royal Caribbean executive. I don't disparage the corporations for recognizing this phenomenon and exploiting it as a business opportunity. How could they not? But, this psychology is ugly. Luxury and comfort are one thing. Wanting to be superior to your fellow human beings because of your bank account is another, especially for those who became ridiculously wealthy just by the virtue of being born into a particular family.
My family and I are not poor, by any means. I wouldn't mind if my daughter married someone from a poor family with minimal education, as long as the person treated her well and had some ambition and work ethic which would contribute to them leading secure, fulfilling lives together. On the other hand, I would loathe for her to marry someone who "looks for constant validation as a high-value customer."
My family and I are not poor, by any means. I wouldn't mind if my daughter married someone from a poor family with minimal education, as long as the person treated her well and had some ambition and work ethic which would contribute to them leading secure, fulfilling lives together. On the other hand, I would loathe for her to marry someone who "looks for constant validation as a high-value customer."
19
When Kevin Sheehan was the CEO at NCL, he was a 1 percenter with a home in a rich Long Island town and a condo in Miami and 7-figure income with stock options. To his credit he made NCL a public company that did well. But he and NCL thrived on the "masses" like one couple I know who paid for their cruise while the husband, a retired NY ironworker, was earning $200 a month pension.
9
When I came to America from India fifteen years ago, I found capitalist America to be more egalitarian then socialist India. Here rich people were far richer in material sense meaning they had bigger houses and cars etc. but the social distance between the rich and middle class was much less. I could talk to my CEO on a first name basis, something unthinkable in India where I would address my immediate boss as “Sir”. In India anybody with little social relevance (businessmen, politician & bureaucrats) would move around with an entourage of courtiers and bodyguards with vehicles having red beacons. This social stratification was relentlessly and jealously guarded. It is unfortunate to see that in America the rich now want to be similarly differentiated from the rest of the society. Money is no longer able to satisfy their inflated self-esteem. It makes me sad that America “The home of the brave and the land of the free” is getting afflicted by the age old feudal disease.
51
Thank you for providing a little perspective to the perpetually envious in America, most of whom are posting here.
10
Brilliantly put. Thank you.
9
Who cares WHAT the Rich do or that we are not invited. We are in the top 0.25% of everyone on the planet and in the top 0.05% of all the billions that have ever lived on this earth. Where does legitimate concern end and base envy and jealousy begin?
17
Putting aside all the sermonizing, it seems that management of these cruise lines is doing its duty to maximize shareholder returns by fully exploiting the demand curve for luxury. Anything less and they would be negligent. Capitalism at work.
13
The "masses" include a Florida Korean War Navy cruiser vet who hoped to celebrate his 50th wedding anniversary with his wife on a family-gifted week-long cruise in 2012. On the first morning, he slipped on a wet floor and fell face-down so hard that his fist made an impression near his triple-bypass scar. Letters to Kevin Sheehan were rerouted to risk management. After a year of obfuscation because cruise owners hide behind maritime law, $750 was offered. Would the "Haven" elite have been mistreated this way?
21
It would take a lot of newly planted trees to off-set the carbon footprint of these giant ships. By the way, the Paris climate accord lets the airline and shipping industries off the hook. Both are very polluting industries. Carbon tax now, please.
30
Of all the things that you could choose to highlight income inequality, the distinction between who gets what on a holiday cruise ship is not one that society really needs to worry about. There have always been gaps between how the rich and not so rich vacation and honestly with a little ingenuity you can have a great vacation for far less than $10,000 a week on a cruise ship.
Personally, I like to avoid the Jersey shore and hang out during the summer in suburban Philadelphia. There are no lines at the movie theaters. Restaurants are uncrowded and have specials. There are plenty of free activities in the city like today's PIFA festival (Philadelphia International Festival for the Arts). A great vacation with very little money, stress or status seeking.
If someone wants to pay $30,000 for a week trapped in a floating condominium, go for it.
Personally, I like to avoid the Jersey shore and hang out during the summer in suburban Philadelphia. There are no lines at the movie theaters. Restaurants are uncrowded and have specials. There are plenty of free activities in the city like today's PIFA festival (Philadelphia International Festival for the Arts). A great vacation with very little money, stress or status seeking.
If someone wants to pay $30,000 for a week trapped in a floating condominium, go for it.
13
@Gordon Fowler,
A floating condo at $30 K a week? I can't help chuckling. You've got a way with words.
4-24-16@7:59 pm
A floating condo at $30 K a week? I can't help chuckling. You've got a way with words.
4-24-16@7:59 pm
4
Very interesting chart on the luxury spending distribution of the affluent. What is glaringly missing from both the chart and the article is any indication of charitable giving that makes an impact on the lives of the less fortunate -- purposely excluding "luxury giving" such as donating expensive art works to museums motivated primarily by a tax deduction. Perhaps it's time to classify charitable giving by the affluent as an exclusive luxury.
5
We are not all in the same "boat" when it comes to the environment either. Our global 1% continue to encourage rapid population growth of 1 billion more resource consumers and polluters every 15 years (by going slow on birth control and using religion to mandate big families) so they can have more customers and slave wage workers to gain yet more unearned wealth and power. But as a former Population minister of India said "No matter how bad things get the children of the rich will not starve." so our elites will deny the suicidal nature of continued population growth and its collateral damages like global warming, desertification, poisoned oceans ... until a generalized biosphere collapse occurs. Then with their ill gotten gains secure in gold bars or offshore banks they will get in their private jets and head to some protected castles in the Arctic or Antarctic, or retreat into security guarded air filtered domes like the ones the Red Nobility live in today while average Chinese have their lungs burned out by poisoned air.
16
@Winthrop Staples,
Your comment is frighteningly on topic and on target.
4-24-16@8:00 pm
Your comment is frighteningly on topic and on target.
4-24-16@8:00 pm
7
Um, people in glass houses throwing many stones, NYT?
Check out your own magazine and the Styles section to see how *you* folks make money off the so-called social stratification.
Check out your own magazine and the Styles section to see how *you* folks make money off the so-called social stratification.
25
Only a day after the article on the rise in suicides in this country.
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/04/22/health/us-suicide-rate-surges-to-a-30-...
Advertising/marketing people, there might be an interesting ring for you in Dante's Inferno.
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/04/22/health/us-suicide-rate-surges-to-a-30-...
Advertising/marketing people, there might be an interesting ring for you in Dante's Inferno.
15
I couldn't be happier that those companies as sparing my family from their aggressive marketing and only targeting the rich.
6
What the article fails to describe is actually the democratization of luxury not the other way around. In the last generation, there has been a massive consumption movement in the middle class of America spurred by availability of credit. Go back to 1950's and everything was purchased by cash which significantly limited access to most things considered as luxury goods. Here are a few of the trends:
1) Houses - 1983 - 1,725 sq ft - 2013 - 2,598
2) Cars - 1960 - 1 car for 3 people , 2008 - 1 car for 2 people
3) Tv's per HH - 1975 - 1.56, 2009 - 2.86
4) 1980 - 40% people attended college - 2013- ~70%
I could go on. When I grew up, there were no designer cloths, cell phones, home computers, ipads, cable TV/Internet, etc.
Today, there is massive level of consumerism resulting low savings rate and personal debt but actual and through committed purchase streams e.g. cell phone contracts.
Of course there is a difference between what income allows one to purchase. It's called capitalism. But this idea that the middle class is sitting the back of the bus is complete nonsense. The fortunes of the country are made by serving the middle class, ask the Waltons, Facebook, Steve Jobs, General Motors, McDonalds, etc. You dont build huge companies on the back of the 1%
1) Houses - 1983 - 1,725 sq ft - 2013 - 2,598
2) Cars - 1960 - 1 car for 3 people , 2008 - 1 car for 2 people
3) Tv's per HH - 1975 - 1.56, 2009 - 2.86
4) 1980 - 40% people attended college - 2013- ~70%
I could go on. When I grew up, there were no designer cloths, cell phones, home computers, ipads, cable TV/Internet, etc.
Today, there is massive level of consumerism resulting low savings rate and personal debt but actual and through committed purchase streams e.g. cell phone contracts.
Of course there is a difference between what income allows one to purchase. It's called capitalism. But this idea that the middle class is sitting the back of the bus is complete nonsense. The fortunes of the country are made by serving the middle class, ask the Waltons, Facebook, Steve Jobs, General Motors, McDonalds, etc. You dont build huge companies on the back of the 1%
19
I think there are many in this country who bemoan the low estate of the Middle Class and cannot see the amount of belongings and comfort around them, and the amount of accumulated debt and expense they parted with to get them.
2
The American middle class has been weakening and shrinking. Meanwhile whole new middle classes have risen in India and China that are bigger than this whole countries total population. They don't need us anymore and never seem to miss an opportunity to let us know it by dumping us
6
@Chris,
I gather, of course, you're speaking in general terms. Believe it or not, some of us are allergic to using credit and do live relatively frugally. If anyone could see my family's sole tv, they'd laugh. It's the old picture tube kind. But, it still works and we've other financial priorities so we're not replacing it.
4-24-16@8:06 pm
I gather, of course, you're speaking in general terms. Believe it or not, some of us are allergic to using credit and do live relatively frugally. If anyone could see my family's sole tv, they'd laugh. It's the old picture tube kind. But, it still works and we've other financial priorities so we're not replacing it.
4-24-16@8:06 pm
6
In an emergency wheere "abandon ship" is required, do these elite have their own life boat?
8
Sorry for the incorrect spelling...
1
no, but as soon as an emergency does arise, bidding for lifeboat seats begins
and, as usual, money talks, and that other thing i cant mention walks
or in this case, treads water
and, as usual, money talks, and that other thing i cant mention walks
or in this case, treads water
5
Bussineses shouldn't be blamed for offering high end services to people who are willing to pay. While income inequality is a serious problem, it is the government's job to fix it.
6
Those at the top level of a ship will experience much more rolling and sea sickness during bad weather and rolling seas. If you can't leave your Haven then it's too bad. Are these high paying customers somehow subsidizing the rest of the passengers?
6
The point raised by many commenters from Second World countries that fretting over whether someone paying $3000 for a cabin on a cruise will feel marginalized because someone paying three times that gets concierge service is missing the larger point....that class difference are becoming deeply pronounced in a nation that formerly bragged and prided itself on its paths to equality.
The commenter expressing concern about REALLY outrageous price to Broadway shows may be missing the point that you have to be in the top 20% of income brackets in the nation to even VISIT (and stay) in Manhattan now.
The changes in the last couple years to the airline business have made me rethink about when to fly at all. Until a few years ago airlines rewarded loyalty by the number of BIS (butt in seat) airline miles actually flown. To get to the highest level you had to essentially be a road warrior (like George Clooney's character in 2009's "UP IN THE AIR).
But the airlines now base "status" (which determines when you board, what seats are available, lounge access, and avoiding extra fees for checked baggage) primarily an the amount of money spent for a ticket, not the actual miles flown.
Everyone thinks they are middle class, but not so much it tuns out....
The commenter expressing concern about REALLY outrageous price to Broadway shows may be missing the point that you have to be in the top 20% of income brackets in the nation to even VISIT (and stay) in Manhattan now.
The changes in the last couple years to the airline business have made me rethink about when to fly at all. Until a few years ago airlines rewarded loyalty by the number of BIS (butt in seat) airline miles actually flown. To get to the highest level you had to essentially be a road warrior (like George Clooney's character in 2009's "UP IN THE AIR).
But the airlines now base "status" (which determines when you board, what seats are available, lounge access, and avoiding extra fees for checked baggage) primarily an the amount of money spent for a ticket, not the actual miles flown.
Everyone thinks they are middle class, but not so much it tuns out....
10
What a bunch of nonsense. I'd rather save and rent a condo or villa than stay in a hotel with a lot of people around. This isn't about class or a system based on caste. It's about how badly you want something and what kind of sacrifices you're willing to make to get it.
True, most of us couldn't afford the cruise line with the top shelf amenities, but some can and for the others on the boat? You are a class above most of the planet. Most will never even see a cruise ship.
True, most of us couldn't afford the cruise line with the top shelf amenities, but some can and for the others on the boat? You are a class above most of the planet. Most will never even see a cruise ship.
6
Is this not how land resorts/hotels work? You get what you pay for. And to say that The Haven is for the "very rich" is a real stretch. Anyone that peruses any of the cruise message boards knows that many Haven guests are there via a severely-reduced upgrade, and I wouldn't call many of the rack-rate payers "very rich" either. I also have a huge problem with the comparison between the Royal Owner's Suite and virtual balcony cabins. Would you rather have an interior room with no view at all? Because interior cabins are nothing new. People in interior rooms aren't suffering like you're making it sound. Whereas interior/smaller rooms are meant for people that would rather spend their time elsewhere on the ship, places like the Haven and larger suites are for people that want a more private experience, while still experiencing what the ship has to offer.
8
This is the U.S. We do not want everyone equal as in socialism.
6
Karl Marx was right: To be successful social revolution should take place on the world scale all at once-today we see the ripening of conditions for it. International capital is opposing the rest of the world. Marx's and Lenin's ideas will come alive with regained strength.
4
It's a nightmare scenario. Have you recently contemplated the millions who have died and been oppressed trying to realize Marx and Lenin's ideas?
4
History acts without due regard for human losses, whether we like it or not; it's up to humans not to wait for revolution and act beforehand, the ruling classes should act in the first place.
I took a cruise on this very boat and the fact that some passengers were segregated in the nee plus ultra Haven section didn't bother me in the least. Even though we had a very modest cabin, the food, service, activities and entertainment were, for the most part, outstanding. I would go again in a heartbeat.
8
Excellent article. I shared it on Facebook. I have, indeed, seen this trend with regret. Yes the wealthy have always been privileged, but there now appears to be a trend toward excessive privilege. I'm a teacher, and my wife is a nurse. We love to cruise. We were fortunate to get a number of suites on Norwegian cheaply based upon availability upgrades. We had a butler once, the Haven, private dining room, etc. On our last cruise we had a balcony. What a difference. We felt like cattle. We always feel special on Celebrity.
3
The smug sanctimony is strong on this thread. Elitists looking down their nose at both the common folk who select a cruise as a vacation and the wealthy who selected the segregated cabins.
13
By this logic,is it wrong to charge for the Times Insider? Don't the masses deserve access to this information?
20
Many years ago I concluded from observation that people who love to spend extra money so they can be in "exclusive" company and apart from the "riffraff" lack in self confidence. Such people will always be with us and smart business people will always be separating those people from their money. Donald Trump is a leading practitioner of this art form.
9
"... a degree of economic and social stratification..." I think this story makes a stronger case for economic class stratification than it does social class. The psychographic that is choosing to cruise on one of these monster vessels, to my eye, is within a fairly narrow band of the same social class. Access to money does not necessarily equate to social class. Even the people who are cruising on the smaller, more exclusive lines (like Silversea, Crystal, etc.) are still often the same boorish, nouveau riche, aspirational rich who have done well financially but are lacking in social status. The socially elite and truly well-bred (with high levels of education, multi-generational wealth, good taste, values, etc.) are absolutely not taking commercial cruises.
6
Do you have some firsthand experience aboard one of these ships?
3
The age of information that we live in is truly amazing in that we get access to all the knowledge in the history of humanity at our fingertips. The downside is that the worst human traits of envy and jealousy get stoked by this access to this information and transparency in our society. The media and politicians, namely liberals, use this to forward their agenda and increase their individual power in our society. Shame on us if we fall for it and shame on those of us who live our lives envious of what others have and not working to better ourselves to accomplish more and not just materially. If someone wants to spend $10,000 on a cruise to avoid lines and crowds that is their choice. If you don't that is yours. Kudos to you both.
4
The pornographic disparities of wealth are only going to get worse, and will come to some kind of change only with yet another meltdown of the capitalist weath-harvesting system, and/or a socio-political insurrection. Class antagonisms lead to class struggle. Class struggle leads to class warfare. Class warfare leads to revolution. Revolution leads either to more democratic structures such as economic democracy and its partners political and cultural democracy, or to a violent reassertion of class privilege -- fascism. Bernie's a sign of the antagonisms. The oppressed of the US and of the world have very little to nothing to gain by maintaining a shred of what currently exists. With some cheap popcorn, I'll be watching the TV this summer as our fascist bourgeoisie jockey for how to purchase and manipulate their guy or gal into their deadly government. It could be the summer of our discontent.
5
Have you considered at all where "the oppressed of the US" fit in in relation to the rest of the world? The on revolution that occurred in the US was the upper middle class throwing of the yoke of government (the Crown). Your dream of class revolution is just that, a dream.
3
as one should expect, this reporting is impeccable, but the point 'creating a money-based caste system' seems a little condescending, hasn't everyone known this for a very long time, like forever? India, Brahman, English society, even New York society
3
NYT writes an article less than a month ago about spending $2,000 or upwards of $20,000 on a hotel room may not be such a bad deal and then makes a big deal about let-them-eat cruise liners. And have you seen all the glossy ads for multi-million condos in NYT magazine for the one percenters and that paper makes money on? Pot, meet kettle.
14
Further proof that if it was not for unions and the Enlightenment, the rich would still own serfs and hire ten year old kids for factory work. The rich are just not decent people
7
7 million people have net assets over $1 million. If one has one million in net assets, one may retire slightly above poverty ($40,000 per year, pre-tax). How does this define an elite class?
15
What's not directly stated here is that it has become increasingly difficult for Americans to gather in any one place without displays of rudeness, bad behavior and generally a sense of individual entitlement to ignore rules - express rules as well as implicit social rules. Thus we have the sorry stories of Easter egg hunts being cancelled because the parents were trampling the kids in their pursuit of chocolate treasure. In movie theaters, airplanes, pretty much anywhere the hoi polloi gather, the situation has become increasingly fraught. So it makes sense that people with some means would want to spend the extra dollars to walk themselves off from the commoners. Equality is great, until some jerk cuts you in the buffet line , sneezes on the potatoes, and drops the entire serving spoon into gooey hollandsise sauce.
13
How confining! I would never consider taking a vacation in a gated community within a gated community. There are many open places in the world to visit where one can trade stories over meals and sleep under the stars without needing a currency of privilege.
7
It seems kind of tasteless to me to participate in some of these experiences where you're cheek and jowl with the commoners until you get to get in your special elevator or gangplank. If you have that much money and any class, go off on your own adventure.
2
Oh yes, Mr. Sheehan, the peasants are revolting. Let's do enjoy the wealth we pile up at their expense, without soiling our own fingers, in a pleasant setting "surrounded by people with similar characteristics--" selfishness, ignorance, and greed. It sounds delightful.
5
Having read this thoughtful op-ed, some of us, now, can begin to understand why there are so few Rolls dealerships in communities classified as "low income"!
4
Friday, we saw that 500 refugees may have drown after their rickety boat capsized crossing to Europe. Seems rather strange that folks complain that its wrong to have some vacationers stand in the buffet line, while others get white glove dining. We should all feel grateful for what we have rather than focus on what others are getting.
10
This article misses the point. The real truth is that cruise ship corporations pay poverty wages to ship employees, avoid taxes by registering in a tax haven and are rife with health and safety violations. To add to these "business practices" they employ very well spoken representatives who get paid handsome sums to tell us all we are missing out on paying them $30,000.00 for a week aboard a floating hotel. We all need to not believe the marketing and take vacations that are consistent with our personal values.
8
I don't recent amenities like a first class section on a cruise ship, it's having to pay extra for what was once open to all. Seating on an airplane or half-way decent seats at a sports stadium or theater or VIP parking for major public events. What was once more a matter of equal chance for all has been monetized. Air travel is the absolute worst.
4
It wasn't all that long ago that airlines were tightly regulated. Where they could fly and what they could charge. Equal choice did not exist then. Now, air travel has been opened up -- for better or worse -- to everyone. What would you prefer, monetized tiered pricing and routes, or a system where some people who pay more can travel more comfortably? Or a more regulated environment where the government basically ran the airlines and few could afford to fly?
3
What is the point of this story?Is it that everyone regardless of income should be treated the same with equal accommodations,etc.?That's not possible in our country.People who CHOOSE(Caps intended for emphasis) to spend more money for a cruise,flight,car,house,etc. should receive more then those who spend less or those who subsist on taxpayer funded freebies.You choose how you want to spend your hard earned money.Does the author of this story really think Hillary,Obama or Trump would choose to fly in coach,drive a Prius,or live in a one bedroom apartment?Give me a break,please!
10
Though it is terrible television and stomach churning to watch, Million Dollar Listing (New York, LA, etc.) is a window into the bizarre excesses of the very wealthy, people who often pay far lower effective tax rates than the middle class or merely affluent.
Social Security and Medicare, which provide a modest baseline of income for the aged and disabled, is only 1% of revenue away from being fully funded for the next 4 decades.
But Republican candidates for President want to give away literally trillions in tax money - going chiefly to the wealthiest - in order to destabilize funding for Social Security and obtain cuts to the poorest that they couldn't politically obtain otherwise.
Corporations get all the protection and resources of the US government, yet they refuse to pay taxes because they can "legally" avoid it.
Legally is in quotes because I would call their tax avoidance scams transparently fraudulent. But there is no prosecution, no penalties.
Three things would vastly improve the tax system:
Eliminate the preferential tax treatment for passive income relative to income earned from labor;
Enact the Kennedy-era plan for effectively taxing multinationals by ending the deferral on taxes until the income is repatriated;
Enforce the tax rules with teeth and jail billionaire tax cheats.
That would restore fairness and equity to a tax system that has become increasingly regressive as payroll taxes are an ever larger share of federal revenues.
Social Security and Medicare, which provide a modest baseline of income for the aged and disabled, is only 1% of revenue away from being fully funded for the next 4 decades.
But Republican candidates for President want to give away literally trillions in tax money - going chiefly to the wealthiest - in order to destabilize funding for Social Security and obtain cuts to the poorest that they couldn't politically obtain otherwise.
Corporations get all the protection and resources of the US government, yet they refuse to pay taxes because they can "legally" avoid it.
Legally is in quotes because I would call their tax avoidance scams transparently fraudulent. But there is no prosecution, no penalties.
Three things would vastly improve the tax system:
Eliminate the preferential tax treatment for passive income relative to income earned from labor;
Enact the Kennedy-era plan for effectively taxing multinationals by ending the deferral on taxes until the income is repatriated;
Enforce the tax rules with teeth and jail billionaire tax cheats.
That would restore fairness and equity to a tax system that has become increasingly regressive as payroll taxes are an ever larger share of federal revenues.
6
You know who else avoids federal income tax, -- about 47% of employed Americans. We all should pay some taxes, because we're all Americans and we all have Skin In The Game.
4
We all do pay some taxes. Actually we all pay a bunch of taxes. Every employed person pays payroll taxes. Everyone employed or not pays sales taxes. Everyone who lives in privately owned housing whether rental or owner occupied pays real estate taxes either directly or through their landlord. If you want more people to pay federal income taxes, there's a simple solution. See that all employed people earn a living wage. The biggest tax avoiders are those scum who pay their employees less than a living wage, encourage them to sign up for federal programs like SNAP and medicaid so that the rest of us pay what the scum won't pay. Explain that to me, RLL.
5
I'd prefer they paid a higher wage, but working there is still an employee's choice. If they choose not to take the job, eventually market forces will push wages higher. Do you agree that everyone has Skin In The Game?
I'm only a retired tech person, with a creative spouse. We have to travel steerage, and hope our trip is not as awful as my immigrant grandparents experienced. Suffering is good for the soul, and motivates me time to plot the radical transformation of our society.
3
Remember Marie Antoinette. 2 classes are easy to create, but it is not sustainable
6
Making people feel bad, has never made me feel good. But good to know, if I go on cruises again, I would search for a more down-to-earth company instead, plus I find hanging out with more down-to-earth, humorous and kind people really enjoyable.
8
That was my first thought. Who wants to hang around with people that fear they'll "catch" the disease that causes poor people? $4,000 vs. 30,000! How can one possibly enjoy a vacation 7.5 times more by having a few toadies at your beck-and-call? Not my idea of fun and relaxation, walling myself off from the little people.
2
Did you really think that things were somehow different at any time in our history, or that it's all that different in any country in the world, especially those based on free-market, capitalistic principles? Seriously?
This article is not much more than cheap class warfare nonsense. Utterly unworthy of the New York Times.
This article is not much more than cheap class warfare nonsense. Utterly unworthy of the New York Times.
8
I agree with many who have pointed out that this is certainly nothing new. Even my veterinarian has different levels of boarding for your pet. You can choose basic (meals and a safe place to stay), or upgrade to more personal care with extra walks and attention, or choose the ultimate, with television provided for the pet and camera monitoring you can access.
Most of us buy the best we can afford that suits our needs. I do not resent that, as a person who will never have access to the inner sanctum of luxury suites. What I do resent, is the wealthy offshoring their wealth so they do not have to pay their fair share of taxes. That is not decent.
Most of us buy the best we can afford that suits our needs. I do not resent that, as a person who will never have access to the inner sanctum of luxury suites. What I do resent, is the wealthy offshoring their wealth so they do not have to pay their fair share of taxes. That is not decent.
29
It doesn't bother me that there's a whole section of a cruise ship that I can't afford, or a fantastic experience boarding a plane that's outside my budget. What bothers me are the moral justifications for the disparate treatment: "I deserve this because I've worked hard," or "This is just the way it ought to be for me." People can get ahead by working hard, to be sure--nothing wrong with that. But really, who gets to such heights without help? I'm not just talking about money in the family, but the simple good fortune of being born in a industrialized Western country. Or having parents who were actually interested in parenting. Or a teacher or two who cared. Or a legislator who thought about the ordinary person when considering a law. All these things are part of the social contract. When we think we just deserve our extravagances we deny there is a social contract at all, and we forget that we're tall because we are standing on other people's shoulders.
29
Ah yes. Yet another NY Times article about inequality, trying to stir up the masses. As many others have mentioned, paying special attention to the rich(er) folks has been a basic principle of marketing forever. But lets see if the NY Times can stir up some more resentment.
9
Would like to know if it's intentional that only white people are shown as passengers in Viking River Cruises catalogs and PBS commercials. I have NEVER seen an exception to this.
5
Look, it's bad enough already. You don't have to stir the racial pot on top of it. It's not all about race. Sometimes it is about class.
4
The Times' Advertising Dept. may be less welcome at Norwegian the next time they come by. Be prepared. boys, for a hard sell experience. Editorial ungreased the way for you. I'm a Sales Manager's son who used to his spend Summer vacations with his dad learning lotsa things. JGAIA-
I wonder if roaches and Norovirus respect the upper classes as much.
14
Ironic that this article appears in the nyt, which creates several strata of readers by allowing some to pay more (either with money, or their privacy, by becoming "Verified Commenters").
Further stratification comes with the "NYT Picks" feature, which not only puts an "Editorial-Seal-of-ApprovalTM" on some comments, but also favors the tab on which those already-favored comments appear by making the NYT Picks tab the first presented when a reader clicks on the comments. One has to take the affirmative action of clicking on the "All" tab or "Readers' Picks" tab to read a more democratic and/or inclusive group of comments. Even the "All" tab doesn't allow a reader access to unfiltered reader comments, because all comments have been moderated. (That's why readers will probably never even get to see this one.)
Further stratification comes with the "NYT Picks" feature, which not only puts an "Editorial-Seal-of-ApprovalTM" on some comments, but also favors the tab on which those already-favored comments appear by making the NYT Picks tab the first presented when a reader clicks on the comments. One has to take the affirmative action of clicking on the "All" tab or "Readers' Picks" tab to read a more democratic and/or inclusive group of comments. Even the "All" tab doesn't allow a reader access to unfiltered reader comments, because all comments have been moderated. (That's why readers will probably never even get to see this one.)
2
I am surprised by the comments. Given these comments, I am wondering if the author intended to create this “outrage.”
Why are the commenters so angry that there is a “first class” on the cruise line? There are economy plus, business and first class seats on airlines. There are standard, deluxe and suites at hotels. There are pizza and taco take out and there are super expensive restaurants. There are Chevy Versa’s and Mazeroti’s. So what. Why does this create anger?
I can be happy in my standard hotel room, sitting in economy and taking out pizza with my old Chevy. But maybe for my parents 50th anniversary me and my sibling might spurge for an all out celebration - certainly no Mazeroti’s but maybe a few suites or even economy plus.
I am not angry because there are first class air passengers - some of them are no-doubt wealthy. but maybe some upgraded and some may have just lucked out. Why do we think we should judge who is sitting where? We all make our own trade-offs for how we want to spend money, forego things or even splurge. Let it go. Enjoy your life.
Why are the commenters so angry that there is a “first class” on the cruise line? There are economy plus, business and first class seats on airlines. There are standard, deluxe and suites at hotels. There are pizza and taco take out and there are super expensive restaurants. There are Chevy Versa’s and Mazeroti’s. So what. Why does this create anger?
I can be happy in my standard hotel room, sitting in economy and taking out pizza with my old Chevy. But maybe for my parents 50th anniversary me and my sibling might spurge for an all out celebration - certainly no Mazeroti’s but maybe a few suites or even economy plus.
I am not angry because there are first class air passengers - some of them are no-doubt wealthy. but maybe some upgraded and some may have just lucked out. Why do we think we should judge who is sitting where? We all make our own trade-offs for how we want to spend money, forego things or even splurge. Let it go. Enjoy your life.
14
Royal Caribbean, 360 video, from February, 2016 -- we had a good time.
This is the sailing after the big storm. Anyway, we had a good time with "those people..."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QYdNiifvnWU
This is the sailing after the big storm. Anyway, we had a good time with "those people..."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QYdNiifvnWU
Why focus on these essentially silly disparities between the 1% and the 99% in America when other such disparities -- like unequal access to health care -- are often a matter life and death?
We also have unequal access to clean water (remember Flint, Michigan?), clean water (asthma rates in Harlem and the South Bronx?) and safe neighborhoods (drive-by shootings?). I'd rather read about *those* disparities than what amounts to a "first-world-problem" puff piece on who gets to pet a dolphin.
We also have unequal access to clean water (remember Flint, Michigan?), clean water (asthma rates in Harlem and the South Bronx?) and safe neighborhoods (drive-by shootings?). I'd rather read about *those* disparities than what amounts to a "first-world-problem" puff piece on who gets to pet a dolphin.
14
As if someone really rich would take a cruise on Norwegian Cruises. They have yachts.
14
This is why Bernie Sanders has developed a following. We are moving backwards in America towards a caste system based on race and wealth. We need to envision a better America one that strives for community and equality.
7
Money-based caste system is no different from profession-based caste system in India.
3
It is not news that some sellers of goods and services create more expensive versions of their products to sell to people who have more money. I believe this practice began around lunchtime on the day money was invented.
4
I have been on cruises and enjoy them immensely. They are a convenient and relatively inexpensive mode of travel for my family, allowing us to mingle with a wide range of fellow passengers as we visit multiple destinations without having to pack and unpack. However, I cannot imagine why someone with $30,000 to spend on a week's vacation would choose to spend it on a cruise, even in an "elite" area. That money could buy a week in a luxury hotel on Park Lane in London with a chauffeur, or perhaps a luxury safari in Africa. But hey, let those with more money than brains pay for an "exclusive" cruise experience, while my family enjoys our $1000 per person vacation.
9
One wonders what would happen should the Norovirus hit the elite quarters. Diarrhea: the great equalizer of the classes.
7
I'd rather spend a night in jail than go on one of these cruise ships, no matter how "exclusive" they tried to make me feel. To me, they *are* a kind of prison.
If I had all the money in the world, I'd spend a good block of it on 2,000 acres of mostly wooded land up in northern Canada, with a house basically no larger than necessary to meet my needs.
Since I'd have all the money in the world, I'd also throw in a few "wants" of sentimental or other value to me (a porch, a dining room, one bathroom per family member, so that no one has to wait when we all come home together, an outdoor enclosure for the cats & dog), a natural pool for swimming, but I'd otherwise try to minimize my impact on the environment. In the garden, I'd want a few non-native, flowering ornamentals like a weeping crabapple (or whatever is hardy enough for northern Canada), but otherwise I'd just let the native species (aka "weeds") provide me with a landscape of wild and untamed greenery.
But I'd make a wide birth around resource-wasting luxuries that are designed only to pamper oneself, stroke one's ego or impress others, like excessive square-footage, ridiculous house-within-a-house, spa-style bathrooms, huge master-bedroom suites, walk-in closets, home theaters, etc.
If I had all the money in the world, I'd spend a good block of it on 2,000 acres of mostly wooded land up in northern Canada, with a house basically no larger than necessary to meet my needs.
Since I'd have all the money in the world, I'd also throw in a few "wants" of sentimental or other value to me (a porch, a dining room, one bathroom per family member, so that no one has to wait when we all come home together, an outdoor enclosure for the cats & dog), a natural pool for swimming, but I'd otherwise try to minimize my impact on the environment. In the garden, I'd want a few non-native, flowering ornamentals like a weeping crabapple (or whatever is hardy enough for northern Canada), but otherwise I'd just let the native species (aka "weeds") provide me with a landscape of wild and untamed greenery.
But I'd make a wide birth around resource-wasting luxuries that are designed only to pamper oneself, stroke one's ego or impress others, like excessive square-footage, ridiculous house-within-a-house, spa-style bathrooms, huge master-bedroom suites, walk-in closets, home theaters, etc.
5
The following poem speaks volumes:
Myself
- Edgar Guest
I have to live with myself and so
I want to be fit for myself to know.
I want to be able as days go by,
always to look myself straight in the eye;
I don't want to stand with the setting sun
and hate myself for the things I have done.
I don't want to keep on a closet shelf
a lot of secrets about myself
and fool myself as I come and go
into thinking no one else will ever know
the kind of person I really am,
I don't want to dress up myself in sham.
I want to go out with my head erect
I want to deserve all men's respect;
but here in the struggle for fame and wealth
I want to be able to like myself.
I don't want to look at myself and know that
I am bluster and bluff and empty show.
I never can hide myself from me;
I see what others may never see;
I know what others may never know,
I never can fool myself and so,
whatever happens I want to be
self respecting and conscience free.
___
If you have the privilege of self-respect, you're in a class wealth can't buy.
Myself
- Edgar Guest
I have to live with myself and so
I want to be fit for myself to know.
I want to be able as days go by,
always to look myself straight in the eye;
I don't want to stand with the setting sun
and hate myself for the things I have done.
I don't want to keep on a closet shelf
a lot of secrets about myself
and fool myself as I come and go
into thinking no one else will ever know
the kind of person I really am,
I don't want to dress up myself in sham.
I want to go out with my head erect
I want to deserve all men's respect;
but here in the struggle for fame and wealth
I want to be able to like myself.
I don't want to look at myself and know that
I am bluster and bluff and empty show.
I never can hide myself from me;
I see what others may never see;
I know what others may never know,
I never can fool myself and so,
whatever happens I want to be
self respecting and conscience free.
___
If you have the privilege of self-respect, you're in a class wealth can't buy.
7
I see this as corporations EXPLOITING the 1%, & to me that's a good thing. Better than exploiting the middle class & poor.
It's also how some very wealthy people (MC Hammer & Willy Nelson spring to mind) end up going broke.
An over-the-top lifestyle featuring fancy cars, yachts, private jets, 1st-class travel, 4-star dining, constant pampering (spa treatments, massages), designer handbags, shoes & clothes & steroids-pumped housing (whether in tastefully appointed mansions or the tacky "mc" version) equipped w/ the latest nonessential fad accoutrements (bathroom "refuges"--I guess from the kids--twice the size of Manhattan studio apartments & replete w/ TV, phone, fridge & hot tub; "outdoor living" spaces with grills, fireplaces; space-waster "Great Halls" for stoking your ego with that all-important 1st impression of envy in your guests; home theaters, bowling alleys -- all of wh you must heat & air condition) -- has never been a path of financial wisdom.
The super-rich have always provided a living for 100s of people offering services, of mostly dubious value. In the 19thC, they spent their money on tincture of Gold & hypnotists; in the 20thC on psychoanalysts; today it's life coaches. Then there are the domestic servants (who often steal from you), accountants (ditto but on a larger scale) & financial advisers (ditto, largest scale of all).The article merely describes a few new ways for the 1% to spend on their ego.
It proves once again that you CAN be too rich.
It's also how some very wealthy people (MC Hammer & Willy Nelson spring to mind) end up going broke.
An over-the-top lifestyle featuring fancy cars, yachts, private jets, 1st-class travel, 4-star dining, constant pampering (spa treatments, massages), designer handbags, shoes & clothes & steroids-pumped housing (whether in tastefully appointed mansions or the tacky "mc" version) equipped w/ the latest nonessential fad accoutrements (bathroom "refuges"--I guess from the kids--twice the size of Manhattan studio apartments & replete w/ TV, phone, fridge & hot tub; "outdoor living" spaces with grills, fireplaces; space-waster "Great Halls" for stoking your ego with that all-important 1st impression of envy in your guests; home theaters, bowling alleys -- all of wh you must heat & air condition) -- has never been a path of financial wisdom.
The super-rich have always provided a living for 100s of people offering services, of mostly dubious value. In the 19thC, they spent their money on tincture of Gold & hypnotists; in the 20thC on psychoanalysts; today it's life coaches. Then there are the domestic servants (who often steal from you), accountants (ditto but on a larger scale) & financial advisers (ditto, largest scale of all).The article merely describes a few new ways for the 1% to spend on their ego.
It proves once again that you CAN be too rich.
4
Sounds like the fall of the Roman Empire
3
Is there a point to this article ? Do I get the impression that it is a bad thing for people to be able to pay for special treatment or accommodations? I am by no means rich, but my wife and I saved to treat ourselves to these very travel privileges for a very special occasion. Have we done something wrong ?
I have an idea which might set the precedent for more equitable treatment of consumers. Let's start with the retail industry. How about disbanding all high end stores, like Neiman Marcus, Saks or Nordstroms, and instead redistributing all their goods through Walmart or Target. This way the "privileged" would be forced to endure the shopping experiences of the lesser privileged. Or, have all car manufacturers consolidate all automobile parts into one generic Buick to be driven, equally, by the masses.
To commend the paper for setting an example, I heard a rumor that its publisher and chief executives always fly coach whenever and wherever they travel, and to further emphasize the example, request the middle seats, and stay at cheap motels
I have an idea which might set the precedent for more equitable treatment of consumers. Let's start with the retail industry. How about disbanding all high end stores, like Neiman Marcus, Saks or Nordstroms, and instead redistributing all their goods through Walmart or Target. This way the "privileged" would be forced to endure the shopping experiences of the lesser privileged. Or, have all car manufacturers consolidate all automobile parts into one generic Buick to be driven, equally, by the masses.
To commend the paper for setting an example, I heard a rumor that its publisher and chief executives always fly coach whenever and wherever they travel, and to further emphasize the example, request the middle seats, and stay at cheap motels
13
Great points illustrating the stupidity of the article. Paying an extra $80 at Seaworld is not a privilege of the 1%. Most service companies offer different options for services, including the USA at airports. Better seats cost more? Big surprise to the author, I guess.
8
I wish I understood the appeal of paying a pile of money to then be crammed in a floating rabbit warren along with thousands of others. I have never understood it. Give me a peaceful unspoiled beach somewhere in the tropics, with a palapa for shade.
These floating monstrosities always strike me as giant prisons gliding just off the coastline, emptying their waste into the oceans.
These floating monstrosities always strike me as giant prisons gliding just off the coastline, emptying their waste into the oceans.
12
Great piece. In a bit of synchronicity, shortly after reading it I had a glimpse into velvet-roping in a far creepier realm: health care. It was a wellness newsletter from the wealth management division of a large financial services firm. Clients are informed of new treatments for fertility, given advice on health screening, genetic testing for tumors and more. They're offered discounts for the Mayo Clinic, Canyon Ranch, PinnacleCare Private Health Advisory and an eldercare company called “Home Instead.” (I assume "instead" refers to nursing homes.) In a section called, “Health and Wealth,” clients are encouraged to hire “health care advocates” to help negotiate the tricky world of health insurance, the annoyances of filing claims, finding doctors and choosing between treatment options and facilities. No hold music for the rich! Let others die slowly as the music alternates between a fragment of Eine Kleine Nachtmusic and Sailing by Christopher Cross. To be fair, I checked my cynicism when I read an interview with a philanthropy executive about the firm’s partnership with worthy organizations working to improve children's nutrition in poor urban areas. I unchecked it when said executive exhorted rich clients wishing to get involved to: "roll up their sleeves and find out what's going on in their communities" ...and then contact their local charities. Gimme a break.
6
Who cares how the nouveau riche flash their money? Veblen had a term for the ostentatious display of wealth - conspicuous consumption. Wal-Mart or Niemann, Mercedes or VW, Motel 6 or The Waldorf? Some people need to spend it so others will know how "successful", ie special, they are. Well, bully for them. Keep them walled off in their platinum prisons so the rest of us aren't exposed to their vacuity.
5
I am much more concerned how we ration medical care, educational opportunity and legal justice by ability to pay.
9
Abercrombie & Kent tailor made travel and private jets are for the wealthy. Your article is discussing travel for masses of people----and some people pay for upgrades. Do not covet what your neighbors have--be content and enjoy what is in your means.
17
if i cant go abercrombie and fitch, i just drive
either th Bentley of th Ferrari are adequate
either th Bentley of th Ferrari are adequate
1
Comparing the Titanic to a cruise ship is absurd. The Titanic provided a means of transportation from England to America. People paid because they needed the service, even if it was to vacation in the other place. Unlike transport vessels, however, cruise ships do not provide a means to an end; they provide an end in itself, namely, entertainment. The "poorer" classes do not *need* to take cruises. There are plenty of alternative forms of recreation. Yes, there are classes in America, but the idea that the "poorer" classes are going to crash barricades to change the status quo is utterly laughable. As long as the "poorer" (but not impoverished) middle classes can still buy their 62" plasma screen TVs and other toys, the disparate treatment of cruise ship voyagers is of absolutely no moment whatsoever.
12
cruise ships are america personified
going around in circles for no reason, burning lots of fuel to get nowhere
jammed w fat noisy slobs always stuffing their gaping maws
thats living th dream, boy-o
going around in circles for no reason, burning lots of fuel to get nowhere
jammed w fat noisy slobs always stuffing their gaping maws
thats living th dream, boy-o
6
A "pay for what you get" society is motivational. I would gladly pay more to avoid rubbing shoulders with the kind of people who support Donald Trump. If I can't afford it, then I simply need to work harder & smarter until I can. That, rather than communism, is what has made America great.
5
Only to a point, George 100. We are WAY beyond that point.
2
Quite a fake comparison between the regular cruise passenger and the luxury passenger. Where does the backpacker or camping vacationer fits in?
Aside from that, I would be ashamed to be caught on one of these deluxe cruises. You experience NOTHING, just consume. I suggest a day trip in a minibus cross-country in Myanmar. Or a bike-tour across Cambodian rice fields and markets. $20 for an unforgettable glimpse into other lives beats a $3,000 cruise for me.
Aside from that, I would be ashamed to be caught on one of these deluxe cruises. You experience NOTHING, just consume. I suggest a day trip in a minibus cross-country in Myanmar. Or a bike-tour across Cambodian rice fields and markets. $20 for an unforgettable glimpse into other lives beats a $3,000 cruise for me.
7
The answer to income equality is quite simple. Regulate and tax Wall Street and the wealthiest and replace the predatory capitalist system with social capitalism wherein at least 50% of the GROSS profits from any endeavor funded with OUR hard-earned taxpayer dollars come back into they system to fund OUR social safety net. That would include Senator Sanders' free college and universal health care as well as infrastructure, primary education, reasonably priced housing, a safe food chain, etc. NOW is the time.
15
there will likely never be a better chance
That social net is a problem. It has exsaperated the natural seperation of wealth between people. People that are that wealthy need to spend far more money every year on goods so that money does not stagnate as much. That is what really needs to be done.
So, to each according to his need, from each according to his ability. Great. Race ya to the bottom....
2
I wouldn't sweat it. This article is a good reminder that doing things provides much more happiness than having things. Reading remains free, thanks to libraries. America's public lands remain mostly free and we avid mountain bikers have experiences in them that no money could buy. (Instead, we have to invest in physical fitness and bike-handling skills, but those efforts reward themselves.) Most of the mountain bikers I hang out with wouldn't be interested in being in the Haven. We'd feel both trapped and bored, frankly.
7
Oh dear, if I pay $1,500 to $3,000 for my cruise trip I will now be aware that the couple in the $6K-and-up-day luxury section of the ship has it better than me. Good grief, how about talking about the real problem: people who have to choose between electricity, health care, food or shelter, always skimping or foregoing one or the other. I am in the highest tax bracket, and would be happy to pay another 10 to 15 percent in taxes if it went directly to help people obtain the necessities that their paychecks will not cover.
I grew up in one of the nation's most affluent communities (born 1959), and when it still had a working class community. There were kids who went to the Caribbean or Florida for the winter break and there were kids who only saw a beach in the summer. It was clear who had more, but none of the kids I grew up with lacked basic necessities. One girl I knew had two dresses, and I'm not saying it wasn't hard for her to see/hear about the adjacent wealth. But she had a good education, a decent apartment in subsidized housing, good health care and she never went hungry.
Let's stop worrying about who gets the Prada bag, who gets the Coach bag and who goes to Strawberry for the cheap bag, and start concerning ourselves with the real have-nots. NYT, this article was really obnoxious.
I grew up in one of the nation's most affluent communities (born 1959), and when it still had a working class community. There were kids who went to the Caribbean or Florida for the winter break and there were kids who only saw a beach in the summer. It was clear who had more, but none of the kids I grew up with lacked basic necessities. One girl I knew had two dresses, and I'm not saying it wasn't hard for her to see/hear about the adjacent wealth. But she had a good education, a decent apartment in subsidized housing, good health care and she never went hungry.
Let's stop worrying about who gets the Prada bag, who gets the Coach bag and who goes to Strawberry for the cheap bag, and start concerning ourselves with the real have-nots. NYT, this article was really obnoxious.
24
The only folks greater at pandering to the wealthy than business, banks and the rest are politicians who take your vote for gratis and sell its power and our treasury to the elite for tax breaks, subsidies and other special interests.
The class warfare card is always pulled from the deck. What's new?
What has evolved is a collection of government agencies, leaders and the like looking for the brass ring after their service IN government FOR private interests. The federal Reserve, State Department, Military, SEC, DOJ, FCC,
etc. are all complicit in this fraud. If this were not the case, their post government speaking engagements or instant $million jobs wouldn't exist.
Voters are such suckers. As the primaries now prove out with delegates.
The class warfare card is always pulled from the deck. What's new?
What has evolved is a collection of government agencies, leaders and the like looking for the brass ring after their service IN government FOR private interests. The federal Reserve, State Department, Military, SEC, DOJ, FCC,
etc. are all complicit in this fraud. If this were not the case, their post government speaking engagements or instant $million jobs wouldn't exist.
Voters are such suckers. As the primaries now prove out with delegates.
5
Isn't it the wealthy who suffer more as they isolate themselves from the rest of the world? Is it really an advantage to be able to hop to the front of the line in a world of simulacra?
4
A fool and his money are soon parted.
16
These megaships are totally tasteless. A wealthy person with real class would not travel on one, no matter how separated they were from the hoi polloi.
19
Actually, this hoi polloi wouldn't set foot on one of those mega ships. They can keep it!
3
It’s amusing to read comments about how upset people are with first class cabins, ships within a ship, etc. Let’s put it in perspective people. You are all complaining about FIRST WORLD PROBLEMS. Those in the least industrialized countries are struggling to find clean water, basic healthcare, food, and shelter. How many commenters here have a smartphone, TV, PC, car, etc.? Compared to them, YOU ARE the rich. If they saw these comments, I'd venture to guess their thoughts: “Look at those rich people complaining about sitting in economy class or waiting on line for an AYCE buffet on a giant ship. I’ve never been on a plane. And what is an AYCE buffet??” Yes, the concept of an AYCE buffet is foreign to many.
What is also amusing (or should I say offensive?) is the hypocrisy that abounds. Some are quick to shun the “elite” but would gladly seize "elite" experiences if they had the opportunity. Let’s say an airline randomly offers 4 seats in first class on a particular day as part of a promotion. Just how many would say, “No thank you! I refuse to sit in a spacious seat, enjoy a nice meal, and be pampered! I want to sit with my brothers and sisters in the back of the plane, where the rest of us 99 percenters are!” Now let us pause, hold up the mirror, take a long look at ourselves, and answer that question honestly. How about if you won a $100 million lottery? Would you continue living your life EXACTLY the same way? Not one indulgence? Again, pause, look in the mirror...
What is also amusing (or should I say offensive?) is the hypocrisy that abounds. Some are quick to shun the “elite” but would gladly seize "elite" experiences if they had the opportunity. Let’s say an airline randomly offers 4 seats in first class on a particular day as part of a promotion. Just how many would say, “No thank you! I refuse to sit in a spacious seat, enjoy a nice meal, and be pampered! I want to sit with my brothers and sisters in the back of the plane, where the rest of us 99 percenters are!” Now let us pause, hold up the mirror, take a long look at ourselves, and answer that question honestly. How about if you won a $100 million lottery? Would you continue living your life EXACTLY the same way? Not one indulgence? Again, pause, look in the mirror...
26
You nailed it -- the most incisive and intelligent comment of the 1800+.
5
I agree with the first paragraph, but the second sounds like the argument of a defense attorney representing the 1 percent (or at least the top 5 percent).
4
The point of the second paragraph is not to defend the 1% or 5%. It is to defend the 100%. Everyone has a right to enjoy their lives and spend their money the way they want to. I too am a GenXer and was raised to study hard, work hard, and if I so choose, play hard. And I enjoy flying first class because of the higher level of service, not because I have self-worth issues. Make no mistake, I grew up in a working class family. Our vacations were all destinations we could reach by car. We flew maybe once every 4-5 years and it was always in economy class. I still fly economy today as well. The service is not as horrific as some people may claim. So now that I can afford to fly first class, I should be "hissed" at? I worked hard to get my master's degree and labor and toil for 55 hours a week dealing with all kinds of stresses. If spending $30k for a week of seclusion on a cruise ship will help me decompress, that's my prerogative. We make so many assumptions about others without knowing anything about them and that's just wrong. Personally, I'd spend $30k differently for leisure but that's not the point.
The ugly face of jealousy and envy is very evident here. And if you take issue with my second paragraph, perhaps it is because the point hit a little too close to home?
The ugly face of jealousy and envy is very evident here. And if you take issue with my second paragraph, perhaps it is because the point hit a little too close to home?
5
"If I'm up front, I cringe as people walk by" - good grief, give me a break! I mostly fly coach, but am completely willing to shell out to fly first class (especially on overseas trips). I assume others make the same choices.
7
More than any other observation in the story, I find troubling implications in this statement: "With disparities in wealth greater than at any time since the Gilded Age...."
5
And so it has been since the beginning of human commerce and civilization - those that have, get.
Those that don't, don't.
It will never change.
Those that don't, don't.
It will never change.
5
The pampered few. The Second Estate. The tipping point. At least the French Nobles had to offer up their lives in battle to the King for their privilege. Here we have no Blood Tax or any other tax that justifies a trade-off of such luxurious lives. But the economic rules that get us to the 80/20 of everything will begin to show us again that you (they) can't have it all.
3
So? In the end, the joke is still on them - they are paying for a curated and most likely, in the context of a cruise destination, appropriated, experience of consumption - totally vapid and superficial - and everyone still eats the same SYSCO foodstuffs, whether or not it is branded high end or hoi polloi. I'll be taking my 99% self to the mountains- at least until they take that away, too.
6
“They are looking for constant validation that they are a higher-value customer.”
I happened to read this statement while I was eating at a local, casual dining place where I have been a frequent customer for many years. From a business perspective, they consider me one of their most valued customers.
Only a few minutes before reading this article, I asked my server to take the order at the next table first, even though they had sat down after me, because they had a young child with them.
You know what's harder for me to imagine than having the "luxury" of a service like Haven? Having a self-worth that is so low I need to be treated better than others just to feel valuable.
I sincerely hope that's a poverty I'll never know.
I happened to read this statement while I was eating at a local, casual dining place where I have been a frequent customer for many years. From a business perspective, they consider me one of their most valued customers.
Only a few minutes before reading this article, I asked my server to take the order at the next table first, even though they had sat down after me, because they had a young child with them.
You know what's harder for me to imagine than having the "luxury" of a service like Haven? Having a self-worth that is so low I need to be treated better than others just to feel valuable.
I sincerely hope that's a poverty I'll never know.
16
Rich or poor, whether packed in like sardines in tourist class or rats in "Haven," those of us who have never had to endure a "cruise" on one of these 20 story high glorified ferry boats, are truly blessed IMHO.
8
None of this would matter, and none of these "behind the velvet rope" specialties would mean anything, if this current American culture wasn't so conformed, narcissistic, and superficial.
Now be a good boy and girl and go buy a new cell phone and think that your life would be that much better if you only had superficial material goods!
Now be a good boy and girl and go buy a new cell phone and think that your life would be that much better if you only had superficial material goods!
8
It is my understanding that these ships tour the Caribbeann, Mediterranean, Adriatic, Alaskan coast, etc., In other words they are not deep water vessles as ocean going ships are. Since this is true, why would any company that wants to cater to the top 5% because the uber rich have their yachts, invest in suite of rooms, service, etc that also accomadates the less fortunate on the same vessel, when they could build a smaller ship that is exclusively priced for them?
I suspect that marketing psycholigists and socioligists have examined this smaller ship venue but subsequently discounted it because the top 5% also want to feel superior to the lesser fortunate clientele. In other words, not only are they pampered for a price but they also want the other middling folks to know that they aren't as important or worthy so long as the middlers don't get too close!!!
I suspect that marketing psycholigists and socioligists have examined this smaller ship venue but subsequently discounted it because the top 5% also want to feel superior to the lesser fortunate clientele. In other words, not only are they pampered for a price but they also want the other middling folks to know that they aren't as important or worthy so long as the middlers don't get too close!!!
5
No matter how fancy the funeral, we're all equal at the end.
9
Thank God for that! Justin at last!
Let the rich get their own boat and let it cast away where they can do no harm to the lesser people.
"...Emmanuel Saez, a professor of economics at the University of California, Berkeley, estimates that the top 1 percent of American households now controls 42 percent of the nation’s wealth..."
___
42%. A curious number, 42; Hitchhiker fans know it; Yet it is so much more than an answer/explanation as it has significant meaning in STEM research, sports, religion, entertainment, gaming, even astrology (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/42_%28number%29).
Bill Clinton was the 42nd POTUS; He and Hillary are part of that 1%.
But, were it not for that 42%, many of the 58% wouldn't enjoy the possessions we have regardless of how much more the CEO makes.
___
42%. A curious number, 42; Hitchhiker fans know it; Yet it is so much more than an answer/explanation as it has significant meaning in STEM research, sports, religion, entertainment, gaming, even astrology (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/42_%28number%29).
Bill Clinton was the 42nd POTUS; He and Hillary are part of that 1%.
But, were it not for that 42%, many of the 58% wouldn't enjoy the possessions we have regardless of how much more the CEO makes.
4
The day I'm treated like "steerage on the Titanic" when I spend $5k for a cruise, the day I will never go on another cruise. As long as I'm treated like I spent $5k, I don't care how the cruise line treats other paying customers. But the day a cruise line treats me like a second class citizen because I'm only willing to spend $5k for a cruise, and rubs my nose in the fact that there are certain amenities on a ship I cannot enjoy because I have not paid enough, is the day I stop using that cruise line. I personally prefer Norwegian's approach by hiding the rich from the rest of us. If the rich are so ashamed to be seen in their opulence by the rest of us, then I say let them stay hidden. I'm not sure I agree with Royal Caribbean's approach of letting us see what we're not good enough to enjoy. I never cruised with Royal Caribbean (although I have cruised with Norwegian several times), and I doubt I ever will after reading this article.
1
The comments scare me more than the article. There are a lot more frogs in the pot than I thought possible.
10
"Even though this kind of pampering might be good for business, and delight those on the right side of the velvet rope, the gap between the privileged and the rest may ultimately leave everyone feeling uneasy," said Barry J. Nalebuff, a professor of management at Yale. No kidding, Karl Marx. What else is new?
3
From the article:
“We are living much more cloistered lives in terms of class,” said Thomas Sander, who directs a project on civic engagement at the Kennedy School at Harvard. “We are doing a much worse job of living out the egalitarian dream that has been our hallmark.”
Since when was an egalitarian dream a hallmark of the United States? it is simply not possible to have freedom and egalitarianism simultaneously. Where do people (including many who are "highly educated) get these ideas?
“We are living much more cloistered lives in terms of class,” said Thomas Sander, who directs a project on civic engagement at the Kennedy School at Harvard. “We are doing a much worse job of living out the egalitarian dream that has been our hallmark.”
Since when was an egalitarian dream a hallmark of the United States? it is simply not possible to have freedom and egalitarianism simultaneously. Where do people (including many who are "highly educated) get these ideas?
4
so this is why I've never liked cruises...
3
Bring back steerage. First class passengers can throw leftover food and enjoy the spectacle of lower classes scuffling for stale brioche.
4
A wise person once said, "You can't worship God and money." Well, the 1% obviously chose to worship money. And the remaining 99%, whether worshiping or not, should be voting for Bernie Sanders.
7
Dear Buck,
It is possible to be wealthy and religious.
It is possible to be wealthy and religious.
2
Absolutely right. After all, money is a religion, and it's the primary religion of the 1%. It takes a most committed focus to attain and hold onto that level of financial wealth. In that regard, the 1% are extremely religious. However, to be humane and committed to the health and welfare of all is a very different religion. I don't believe the religion of money and the religion of humanity can go hand in hand.
1
Taking a cruise for a vacation, no matter what you pay, doesn't insulate you from nanoviruses, storms at sea, seasickness, and sharing space that wouldn't constitute a small town with the population of a decent-size suburb. And one you can't drive away from when you get sick of the scenery, the neighbors, the general milieu of the place.
Reading this article and others about cruise-ship experiences, then looking back at history, I believe the only "cruise" I'd ever have been willing to take was a relatively short one, off the beach at Dunkirk.
Reading this article and others about cruise-ship experiences, then looking back at history, I believe the only "cruise" I'd ever have been willing to take was a relatively short one, off the beach at Dunkirk.
9
When I was in the Navy back in the 1960s, everyone dreaded the thought of being stationed in Hawaii due to the high cost of living in a basically tourist economy and not being able to drive any distance to get away from things.
4
I worked on a cruise ship. Off on island, the natives paddled out in dugout canoes to the ship. Passengers would throw coins into the sea, laughing as they dove for them before sinking out of sight.
The faster they threw coins, the less time for the divers to catch their breath. This made the passengers laugh even more as their coins sank into the deep.
From the back of the ship, from the lower decks, I then watched the Indonesian crew members toss rolls of coins directly into the canoes. A form of payment for the show, or sympathy, I don't know.
The faster they threw coins, the less time for the divers to catch their breath. This made the passengers laugh even more as their coins sank into the deep.
From the back of the ship, from the lower decks, I then watched the Indonesian crew members toss rolls of coins directly into the canoes. A form of payment for the show, or sympathy, I don't know.
10
This is an example of leaving the Coments open a long time rather than eliminating them as was discussed last week. Gives Readers a good chance to have their conciderably considered say. JGAIA-
3
I am very old and very tall and I seldom fly (perhaps one a year), but when i do, I fly first class. I am willing to pay extra for basic comfort, which the airlines do not offer their regular customers. For the rest, never. The people discussed in this article seem to need extra treatment to feel good about themselves. So sad.
8
Let's recap: you're willing to pay extra for 'basic comforts' and you're perfectly well adjusted but someone else willing to do the same for extra comfort, luxury and/or privacy must have a psychological problem that causes them to look for ways to feel good about themselves. And that makes you sad. Got it.
3
As a migrant to the US from the UK, it always amuses me when Americans insist that the USA doesn't have a class system. Of course it does - like much of the rest of the world. It may lack the silly grandiose titles of 'old Europe' but there is a pretty rigid class system here based on wealth - much of it inherited. I'm not sure that this is 'news' though..? What this article is saying is basically that the world is much as it always has been.
9
I don't blame businesses for these practices.
What sickens me is the comments that those receiving better or more luxurious treatment deserve more, because they are clearly superior human beings. They have obviously worked harder and are more deserving than everybody else. And, as minimally taxed super-wealth is passed from generation to generation, we will see more folks born on third base and making it to home plate.
What sickens me is the comments that those receiving better or more luxurious treatment deserve more, because they are clearly superior human beings. They have obviously worked harder and are more deserving than everybody else. And, as minimally taxed super-wealth is passed from generation to generation, we will see more folks born on third base and making it to home plate.
8
Walt Disney World all by ourselves?
How boring would that be!
Maybe not for the totally self-centered.
I prefer that the super wealthy have their own spaces away from the rest of us, so we don't have to interact with their arrogant behavior.
Shorter lines at Disney parks, more seat and leg room on planes would all be wonderful, but I prefer to avoid arrogant, "superior" people.
(And I have been in first class on planes - upgraded a few times a year. The seats are great, but fellow passengers not so great unless they are fellow upgradees.
How boring would that be!
Maybe not for the totally self-centered.
I prefer that the super wealthy have their own spaces away from the rest of us, so we don't have to interact with their arrogant behavior.
Shorter lines at Disney parks, more seat and leg room on planes would all be wonderful, but I prefer to avoid arrogant, "superior" people.
(And I have been in first class on planes - upgraded a few times a year. The seats are great, but fellow passengers not so great unless they are fellow upgradees.
3
Not everyone that goes on a cruise is wealthy. Many passengers are retirees going on a trip they looked forward to for many years. There are also "ordinary" families celebrating reunions or special events. And if you look at the cruise websites you will see there are opportunities to sail at discounted prices or last minute deals.
2
I have no problem with a system that rewards “productive economic activity with money.” Some got rich because they were smart and worked hard. But many got rich because they got lucky, or they inherited it, or in some cases, they cheated and stole it. The disconnect is that money has something to do with value-added. One could argue that hard working doctors add more value to society than wealthy drug kingpins -- and yet, the later are among those being catered to in “Haven class”. Personally, I'd rather mingle with the value-adders.
11
It's only good business to give customers what they want.
A reward for good decision making, hard work, and wise money management is being able to buy the luxuries one desires.
A reward for good decision making, hard work, and wise money management is being able to buy the luxuries one desires.
5
The reason the rich are rich is, they skew the world to their advantage -- much like a john. The reason our government lets them is, they finance campaigns.
When election campaigns are funded by the public, the government will be responsible to the public.
When election campaigns are funded by the public, the government will be responsible to the public.
11
My mother always told me that you can either spend a lot of money or have a lot of money. How many of these people who are willing to spend $30,000 for a week of being pampered have their house and car paid off or a retirement that can keep them luxury cruises?
Personally I would choose the flexibility that having money can give you; over the stress of wondering if there will be enough in the future.
Personally I would choose the flexibility that having money can give you; over the stress of wondering if there will be enough in the future.
11
While the chosen examples in this article are silly, having income inequality that hasn't been seen since the Gilded Age is serious. Read Piketty before you say things have always been this way. This kind of wealth disparity only grows, unless you take legislative action to stop it. Americans have some naive notion that we are above class warfare, that wealthy people deserve what they have. Wake up. Hard work did not create most of the current gap between the classes. The haves can afford to leverage our current system in myriad ways, have even more, and assure the wealth carries on and grows through their descendants, while the rest of us are increasingly closed off from opportunity, no matter how hard we work. Sounds like class warfare to me.
12
Been to a Whole Foods lately? Wall to wall with young, rich yuppy-techies with 3.5 blond, blue-eyed spoiled, entitled kids--planting the seeds for the next 1% generation. Of course, you may spot a brown-skinned nanny or servant among them.
11
Your point?
5
Yes, I just came back from the Whole Foods down the street. It was full of people in the top 20% income set, and no nannies. And that's the problem with comments like this. You can't reach or see the true 1%-ers, so you instead try to bring down everyone with a good job and a nice house. That attitude is one of the reasons nothing can be done about income inequality; you would just as soon shoot anyone who gets a little ahead in the game.
7
Apparently anti-white racism is now the acceptable racism. It's interesting to see how the comment section blocks any racists statements against any minority, but obnoxious stereotypes about "blonde, blue-eyed spoiled, entitle kids" just breeze through. BTW, the last Whole Foods I shopped in was about 60 percent white and 40 percent Black, Asian and Hispanic. Keeping in mind, of course, that the US is still more than 70 percent non-Hispanic white, it seemed to more than reflect the diversity of the city in which it was located.
7
I am amazed at the number of people who are so angry at people who are willing to spend $10K on a vacation. So what? One commenter noted that "most of us shop at Sam's Club, drive an older vehicle, are knee deep in credit card debt, and have a mortgage we can't afford. Many of us are paying off exorbitant college loans that paved our way into adulthood." No one asked you to take on a mortgage you can't afford or to run up credit card bills you have trouble paying back.
One of the key things we've lost sight of in this society is that much of what we consider "essential" to everyday life is in fact not. You do not need cable TV to live. You do not need a Coach handbag. You do not need to take a vacation of $3-5K every year. You WANT these things and therefore overspending starts. Quite simply, many of us make bad financial decisions.
What people should be angry about it is conspicuous over consumption. Yes, big corporations are good at marketing - so are the Kardashians. Why have we seemingly forgotten one that hallmark of Americanism - self determination? Our system is not perfect and yes, the real root causes of income inequality (education, social policies that concentrate poverty, etc) need desperately to be addressed. But I for one am sick and tired of those complaining they can't keep up when the markers by which they determine this fact are size of house, type of vacation, etc they are able to afford.
One of the key things we've lost sight of in this society is that much of what we consider "essential" to everyday life is in fact not. You do not need cable TV to live. You do not need a Coach handbag. You do not need to take a vacation of $3-5K every year. You WANT these things and therefore overspending starts. Quite simply, many of us make bad financial decisions.
What people should be angry about it is conspicuous over consumption. Yes, big corporations are good at marketing - so are the Kardashians. Why have we seemingly forgotten one that hallmark of Americanism - self determination? Our system is not perfect and yes, the real root causes of income inequality (education, social policies that concentrate poverty, etc) need desperately to be addressed. But I for one am sick and tired of those complaining they can't keep up when the markers by which they determine this fact are size of house, type of vacation, etc they are able to afford.
18
Wealth and Class are two different things; today, everyone sees them as the Same, or many do. I found it distasteful that the whole purpose of filling the ship 'with middle class customers,' was to make them 'scenery' for the wealthy. Imagine paying to 'be the scenery' for the wealthy. Pretty creepy and weird, in my view.
9
I have no problems with people who can afford better accommodations getting them. And the people who support that notion do not really understand the problem.
Most of today's "Rich" did not make their money by adding value. (Earning it through the sweat of their brow or brain) They are getting richer because they have money in the first place. It has been my personal experience most of them are self centered not to bright people who do not know to put their money to work. So they spend it. They do not realize they are undermining the very system that put them there in the first place. And like the Titanic, their huberis will sink all.
Most of today's "Rich" did not make their money by adding value. (Earning it through the sweat of their brow or brain) They are getting richer because they have money in the first place. It has been my personal experience most of them are self centered not to bright people who do not know to put their money to work. So they spend it. They do not realize they are undermining the very system that put them there in the first place. And like the Titanic, their huberis will sink all.
7
The Caste system has always been based on money, flowery religious and dogmatic language aside.
3
It is not enough to just be rich in today’s America: Other people must be poor and have their noses rubbed in their squallor.
7
Another bias article blaming the successful for all the nation's ills. Income inequality research points to education as the main cause. And who controls the pubic educational system in this country? Maybe in stead of attacking people who have made a success of themselves, you can expose the failings of public education to move people up the ladder to success.
4
" Income inequality research points to education as the main cause."
Why would you expect those whose "culture" does not value education and goes so far as to attack those who do for "acting white", to be successful?
Why would you expect those whose "culture" does not value education and goes so far as to attack those who do for "acting white", to be successful?
3
Conspicuous consumption in the face of declining living standards is no less conspicuous or pernicious just because the rich get a separate door. Don't worry rich people, we see you, and we are going to tax your behinds big time come November. Meanwhile, enjoy your swim.
4
FAA please explain the $5 registration fee for one of Trump's Jets when the DMV exacts several hundred dollars annually for the 'privilege' of driving my jalopy.
8
A caste based on money! Wow! And somebody alerted the media!
6
Good for these companies to market to those who both want and can afford better products.
If one does not like this, then VOTE BERNIE.
Bernie will take from achievers (aka "the rich") to give to non-achievers (aka "the poor.")
It's your choice - better products, or handouts to those whom life has treated "unfairly."
If one does not like this, then VOTE BERNIE.
Bernie will take from achievers (aka "the rich") to give to non-achievers (aka "the poor.")
It's your choice - better products, or handouts to those whom life has treated "unfairly."
Without congress he will do nothing. Do you not realize that?
2
I enjoyed reading this article. Not earth-shattering, but interesting.
Now, my Sunday paper edition has arrived. I was rather surprised to find this as your lead story, above the fold on the right side of the front page with 2 columns and a photo.
Is it a slow news day or what? Have you folks heard there's a presidential election going on?
Now, my Sunday paper edition has arrived. I was rather surprised to find this as your lead story, above the fold on the right side of the front page with 2 columns and a photo.
Is it a slow news day or what? Have you folks heard there's a presidential election going on?
1
Cruise Ships just might be the canary in the coal mine. Let them eat cake... off with their heads! We all know where this leads because we've been there before. We could, perhaps, begin to level the playing field and then who knows, maybe avoid the destruction of the stadium. We shall see. The gales of November are still a long way off.
2
I don't see how this warrants front page coverage, unless the Times was going to put it on the cover of its T Magazine, which blatantly caters to the privileged class that this article seems to resent. The Times is clearly one of those "companies adept at identifying wealthy customers and marketing to them." So what is the point of this article -- maybe the Times should stop printing T Magazine -- I know that I wouldn't miss it, but I don't resent the people who the Times is aiming it at.
5
Um...the hoi poloi pool that crowds are "milling around" (some people are standing in the background) is actually way bigger and just as empty as the "Haven" pool.
When you get to the very top of goods/services (food/cars/clothing/hotels) you pretty much stop paying for the good or service itself and start paying for the fact that you enjoy the idea that you are paying a lot. People who like to pay outrageous prices for goods/services that offer only relatively small incremental advantages over similar goods/services actually subsidize everybody else. I feel strongly that they should be given ample opportunity to do so! Knock the price of the average ticket on a cruise ship down even further and have a class of people who pay $1 million per trip who are pulled beyond the boat in a boat made of gold. :)
When you get to the very top of goods/services (food/cars/clothing/hotels) you pretty much stop paying for the good or service itself and start paying for the fact that you enjoy the idea that you are paying a lot. People who like to pay outrageous prices for goods/services that offer only relatively small incremental advantages over similar goods/services actually subsidize everybody else. I feel strongly that they should be given ample opportunity to do so! Knock the price of the average ticket on a cruise ship down even further and have a class of people who pay $1 million per trip who are pulled beyond the boat in a boat made of gold. :)
4
Since the '80's, the Global Economy is based on
offering as much comfort as possible to the extremely comfortable. We're led to believe that, once comforted, the 1% will create a paradise for all. It's never happened in the history of Forever, but we keep doubling down on this strategy because it IS working for the 1%, and they keep getting more control over our lives.
offering as much comfort as possible to the extremely comfortable. We're led to believe that, once comforted, the 1% will create a paradise for all. It's never happened in the history of Forever, but we keep doubling down on this strategy because it IS working for the 1%, and they keep getting more control over our lives.
8
I've seen way too much of this kind of thing in my considerably long life. One of the reasons I left my lofty professions.
Incredibly self-centered people. Oblivious to any below their status. (There are, of course, exceptions to this generalization. But it's mostly true.)
This has just got to stop.There will be a day of reckoning, and it won't be pretty.
Incredibly self-centered people. Oblivious to any below their status. (There are, of course, exceptions to this generalization. But it's mostly true.)
This has just got to stop.There will be a day of reckoning, and it won't be pretty.
4
It shouldn’t be surprising that cruise ships give preference to the elite. In America, the upper 1% is a priority, the “malice” dividing our society. The American people are at the bottom of the barrel because the money doesn’t move down – 42% of wealth in partnership with both parties in Congress decided that to strengthen their economic and political positions was more beneficial.
The American people must realize that a president has limited powers – that Congress is the ultimate decider of our destiny. If we want to regain our economic way of life, we must do a “clean sweep” in Congress since its members are the ones endangering our future.
Perhaps most alarming is that many people feel betrayed, have lost faith in the skewed political system and hardly gets our voting. Realistically, you can’t achieve unless you fight.
The American people must realize that a president has limited powers – that Congress is the ultimate decider of our destiny. If we want to regain our economic way of life, we must do a “clean sweep” in Congress since its members are the ones endangering our future.
Perhaps most alarming is that many people feel betrayed, have lost faith in the skewed political system and hardly gets our voting. Realistically, you can’t achieve unless you fight.
1
Well, there is that stuff about the Lion being King of the Jungle.
Maybe Mother Nature never intended for us to be in the same boat.
Maybe Mother Nature never intended for us to be in the same boat.
Tax the rich, similar to the rates during Eisenhower's presidency. That worked. Today's tax system most certainly does not, and those that are benefiting the most are paying off those that could change it. This is not a "representative republic".
4
I work in advertising, so I was aware about this increased marketing towards the affluent about three years ago. On the one side, I can't argue with the logic that since the rich have most of the money, companies should target them specifically. On the other side, I am not rich myself (not for lack of trying) and I become resentful of companies and people who think it's okay to give me sub standard services just because I have less money.
Although I don't think the disparity between services offered to poor people and rich people is as dehumanizing as it was in the past, I think with a couple of years, cruise ships may decide that rich people deserve those lifeboats a lot more than the rest of the "plebes" afterall.
Although I don't think the disparity between services offered to poor people and rich people is as dehumanizing as it was in the past, I think with a couple of years, cruise ships may decide that rich people deserve those lifeboats a lot more than the rest of the "plebes" afterall.
3
Here's what is unfathomable - why anyone of privilege (or taste) would want to be anywhere on this floating tenement packed to the gills like sardines?
12
There goes our once goof country for all. I'm old, never missed a vote. This time, no vote. Let the billionaires have it.
2
To myself: goof should be good.
This is where a US federal, EU-style GST on all goods and services of around 20% would at least ensure that richer Americans are regularly paying out more towards the commonwealth in federal taxes from their disposable income than the not so rich.
It's no coincidence that the most equitable and civilised western economies all have a federal or national GST. Only the USA refuses to come on board. Likewise, the USA refuses to adopt SI units, which would make teaching science so much more straightforward and accessible, refuses to adopt a single-payer national health service, and refuses to regulate properly the supply of semi-automatic firearms.
Those on the political right in the US retort, of course, because they care so much about the plight of the poor, that a federal GST would disproportionately hit the poorest hardest, despite the fact that this has been shown not to occur in the EU thanks to effective fiscal compensation for the poorest.
Further, a US federal GST of around 20% would easily pay for a national health service and for the free extension for all of formal schooling and training to Year 15. It would also pay for the cost of nationwide full-time pre-schooling for all.
But no. No progress is ever made because the debate in the USA between the left and the right goes round and round forever in circles about rates of income tax, of all the taxes the most easily avoided and evaded by both the admittedly very rich and by the nominally poorest gangsters alike.
It's no coincidence that the most equitable and civilised western economies all have a federal or national GST. Only the USA refuses to come on board. Likewise, the USA refuses to adopt SI units, which would make teaching science so much more straightforward and accessible, refuses to adopt a single-payer national health service, and refuses to regulate properly the supply of semi-automatic firearms.
Those on the political right in the US retort, of course, because they care so much about the plight of the poor, that a federal GST would disproportionately hit the poorest hardest, despite the fact that this has been shown not to occur in the EU thanks to effective fiscal compensation for the poorest.
Further, a US federal GST of around 20% would easily pay for a national health service and for the free extension for all of formal schooling and training to Year 15. It would also pay for the cost of nationwide full-time pre-schooling for all.
But no. No progress is ever made because the debate in the USA between the left and the right goes round and round forever in circles about rates of income tax, of all the taxes the most easily avoided and evaded by both the admittedly very rich and by the nominally poorest gangsters alike.
2
Sounds a lot like the failed Abercrombie & Fitch business model...
3
Perhaps the cruise lines and other "toff" specialists might include a copy of Charles Dickens "A Tale of Two Cities" in the cabins/rooms? Or maybe the apposite comment by the great British conservative, Benjamin Disraeli, "When the cottage is not happy, the palace is not safe."
2
Of course the rich want better treatment. What hurts all of us is that, when the cloistered elite is also our political elite, they can remain completely oblivious to problems for those of us in the real world (remember George H.W. Bush's battle with a laser scanner at the supermarket?) and instead go about solving problems we don't have -- like tax loopholes to hide your second and third billion dollars.
Back in the day, at least the elites had a healthy respect for the guillotine, if they came across as too selfish and oblivious. What, I wonder, restrains them now? Bernie Sanders? Please.
Back in the day, at least the elites had a healthy respect for the guillotine, if they came across as too selfish and oblivious. What, I wonder, restrains them now? Bernie Sanders? Please.
3
How reassuring to be reminded (most of us, 99-99.9%, more or less) that we are devolving into a feudal, plutocratic society. We, in the "industrialized" countries, won't have to endure the brutal grinding poverty and chaos that most people in the world live in daily. This article is an excellent description (consciously or not) of the complete moral bankruptcy and destruction of the social fabric brought about by unrestrained capitalism. The enormous wealth explosion, and the capture of most new wealth by the plutocrats is not happening because of their "hard work", it is happening because most people are either ignorant of the fact that new wealth has been coming from either unsustainable exploitation and destruction of the ecosystem that supports all human life on earth, or the corruption of "developed" countries, where the wealthy have bought the political system, so that the theft of the meager savings of the "middle class" by the wealthy is legalized and facilitated by the government itself. Ignorance is bliss, until it is hungry, then it is hateful and murderous. Given the advances in the technology of warfare, military revolutions may destroy civilization before climate change does. Not to worry, take a cruise!
5
There seems to be a sensitivity to "inequality" out there that borders on psychological dysfunction. We need to look into ourselves to find the cause in our childhoods that make us filter for this. We all have anger from childhood injustices that we experienced from parents and siblings, which seeks to be felt and vented. We do so by finding symbols in the larger world to confront and redirect this anger. The anger towards the symbol feels very real because it IS real, but actually originates within the family. Those of us who do not filter for these same symbols are content with comparing ourselves with the WORSE circumstances we COULD be in and appreciate and find comfort in that we are in the position we ARE in. We couldn't care less what the rich do or that we are not invited.
6
"There seems to be a sensitivity to "inequality" out there that borders on psychological dysfunction."
The "progressives" seem to think that everyone is equal which is not the case. It is pretty well determined that there are differences in the average IQ of different racial groups. Asian-Americans have an average IQ of 115. Jewish-Americans an average IQ of 110, White-Americans an average IQ of 100, Hispanic-Americans an average IQ of 90 and African-Americans an average IQ of 85. In addition, men have a wider IQ range than women so there are more really smart men than really smart women and more really dumb men than really dumb women. With all of these differences, why would there NOT be inequality?
The "progressives" seem to think that everyone is equal which is not the case. It is pretty well determined that there are differences in the average IQ of different racial groups. Asian-Americans have an average IQ of 115. Jewish-Americans an average IQ of 110, White-Americans an average IQ of 100, Hispanic-Americans an average IQ of 90 and African-Americans an average IQ of 85. In addition, men have a wider IQ range than women so there are more really smart men than really smart women and more really dumb men than really dumb women. With all of these differences, why would there NOT be inequality?
4
More pro-socialism sentiment from The Times. Wealth is bad. Equal pay for everyone. Readers would be shocked to learn that the founders of The Times, including the great Arthur Sulzburger, were ardent capitalists. Read "The Chief", about the life and times of William Randolph Hearst. Educate yourselves as to where the The Times really came from.
3
I would pay extra to avoid "The Haven’s."
6
Citizens should be thankful for the 42% that are disparagingly referred to here as "controlling the wealth," since they are the ones who fund those who pay no taxes and those who receive money from the government in the form of refunds and social welfare.
Funny, we are bombarded with criticism of Wall Street, corporations, "the 1%" ad nauseam, but why are the entertainment and sports industries never mentioned?
Funny, we are bombarded with criticism of Wall Street, corporations, "the 1%" ad nauseam, but why are the entertainment and sports industries never mentioned?
6
Oh really? And just who does the appointing of "privilege" if not the most privileged? Let's get real here. The root of the problem is "excess." The rich live in such excess they can no longer survive. So to prove they can, they appear on those stupid survival programs where they have to "feel" deprived" and in "danger" for the first time in their lives. This is sane?
In my experience, men of excess always turn kinky in one form or another. That should be psychologically easy to figure out. When you already have it "all" you naturally push the envelope further and further. You naturally believe you have the right to do what no one else does. That the "privilege" you have in mind folks?
In my experience, men of excess always turn kinky in one form or another. That should be psychologically easy to figure out. When you already have it "all" you naturally push the envelope further and further. You naturally believe you have the right to do what no one else does. That the "privilege" you have in mind folks?
This article and its thesis is completely ridiculous. I'm middle class, at best. Still, I see no reason why someone richer than me (or poorer, for that matter) should not get more privileges and access if they're willing to pay more. What next, railing against Business Class versus Economy? Or insisting on luxury apartments at rent-stabilized prices? How about making the NYT free to everyone instead of the paywall after 10 articles a month? No? Sure?
10
a nauseating supply and demand
2
For too long our country has equated wealth with moral superiority.
4
Anyone wanting to see examples of businesses targeting wealthy customers should take a look at the real estate ads in the "NYT Magazine." Although the ultra-wealthy comprise a only tiny portion of the Times' readership, they get a huge amount of attention from real estate advertisers in a city with massive disparities in wealth. As in robbing banks, so it is in real estate: Go where the money is.
4
So the NYT derides merchants for catering to the wealthy! Excuse me, but have the NYT editors ever read their own newspaper? If so they'd see page after page of ads (not to mention supplements) hawking the most fabulously expensive jewelry, watches, clothes, real estate, etc., luxury items that only the point one percent could afford. And, of course, those ad dollars pay the salaries and dividends for the NYT's employees and shareholders. Do they give Pulitzer's for hypocrisy?
8
I don't see deriding. It's called reporting.
2
Get real. What do you think is motivating this article? It's not really news, it's shaping the news.
“It’s about transparency,” he said. “What customers hate is when you’re trying to hide stuff and are not being honest with them.”
In the category of the airlines making the basic experience of flying so miserable that anyone who can possibly buy their way to a neutral passage, one advertisement has stuck in my mind/craw for years: American Airlines ran a radio a, albeit for a short time, speaking i the voice of a middle-aged white woman sniffing in a confiding, eye-rolling tone that, and I paraphrase, "Everyone says that travel is so stressful these days, well, I say you just need to know how to travel." She when on to describe that with American Airlines she used this service and that service...she knew how to travel (and you did not). It was clear: pay for additional services or you would continue to have the baseline miserable experience (implicitly still on American Airlines). There you go, sucker -- no baseline decent service with your ticket purchase -- you will have to pay more. I heard the ad only several times. I've always wanted to believe it was yanked for snarky offensiveness.
In the category of the airlines making the basic experience of flying so miserable that anyone who can possibly buy their way to a neutral passage, one advertisement has stuck in my mind/craw for years: American Airlines ran a radio a, albeit for a short time, speaking i the voice of a middle-aged white woman sniffing in a confiding, eye-rolling tone that, and I paraphrase, "Everyone says that travel is so stressful these days, well, I say you just need to know how to travel." She when on to describe that with American Airlines she used this service and that service...she knew how to travel (and you did not). It was clear: pay for additional services or you would continue to have the baseline miserable experience (implicitly still on American Airlines). There you go, sucker -- no baseline decent service with your ticket purchase -- you will have to pay more. I heard the ad only several times. I've always wanted to believe it was yanked for snarky offensiveness.
4
Reminds me yet again why a cruise - let alone theme parks - has zero appeal. Give me a tent, trees and mountains any day!
3
This phenomenon is not new. Just look at first class airline seats, any hotel, housing and just about every consumer good.
2
I just heard an interview on PBS with Punk Rocker Joey Cora and he was commenting on society today and said that the world is "a theme park for rich people who don't pay their taxes". I don't mind a separation or class leveling but what I do mind is the inability of the "lower" classes to enjoy a simple life due to cost of living which is driven and controlled by the "upper deck" people and their governing cohorts.
4
Is this not the same as first class and economy class on a flight, or a train? If it is not, please forgive my ignorance. If it is, then that's the way it always has been, and that's the way it will be for a long time to come.
In fact, Karl Marx wrote about the middle class being set to be eliminated in the capitalist system; that was back in the 1800s. It took a while, but it appears to be in full swing now. Now, who's going to stop this development? The NYT? I don't think so....
In fact, Karl Marx wrote about the middle class being set to be eliminated in the capitalist system; that was back in the 1800s. It took a while, but it appears to be in full swing now. Now, who's going to stop this development? The NYT? I don't think so....
2
I couldn't help but notice the Luxury Spending chart includes 27billion for "Arts". Is that for multiple Pollacks, Museum support, public art, or does it merely represent annual sales at the big auction houses?
1
The guillotine (called the "National Razor") became the symbol of the revolutionary cause, strengthened by a string of executions: King Louis XVI, Marie Antoinette, the Girondins, Philippe Égalité (Louis Philippe II, Duke of Orléans), and Madame Roland.
Ahhhh the good old days!
Ahhhh the good old days!
1
Comparing those in 3000k/ week comfortable staterooms who are fed a massive array of food daily ( not just came but 12 kinds of cake...not to mention plenty of bread) with starving French peasants and claiming they would have equal cause to revolt as many have done here is mind boggling. Everyone on that ship who is not a worker is economically privileged. If you don't see it you probably don't understand why Bernie Sanders is losing in non white states.
8
nobody forces the hoi polloi to take cruises.
cry me a river.
cry me a river.
10
Thank you NYT for waking me up. I had no idea that everyone else wasnt driving the same broken down car that I drive. You mean rich people have better stuff and get better service. Wow! I'm sure glad you guys are around to educate me. Keep up the good work!
9
This is really a typical Times article for typical Time readers . I applaud the authors and editors , they know their market.
Outside of perhaps .005% of the country that has real wealth (10 million plus ),the next 5% to 10 % are working class schnooks who will read this article and hit that AMEX card hard. Yes there may be a divide in this country, however nothing most people can attain if they are willing to get on the mindless treadmill called a successful career path. My family , most of whom were entrepreneurial , taught me to figure out what you need and avoid the ads pointed toward the upscale bourgeois . Or in other words " Sell to the wannabe masses ... dine with the true classes". It works for me!
Outside of perhaps .005% of the country that has real wealth (10 million plus ),the next 5% to 10 % are working class schnooks who will read this article and hit that AMEX card hard. Yes there may be a divide in this country, however nothing most people can attain if they are willing to get on the mindless treadmill called a successful career path. My family , most of whom were entrepreneurial , taught me to figure out what you need and avoid the ads pointed toward the upscale bourgeois . Or in other words " Sell to the wannabe masses ... dine with the true classes". It works for me!
4
Gee, do you think that Harvard might be part of the 'egalitarian dream' problem?
3
Has anyone noticed the irony of this article juxtaposed against ads for Tiffany's and Dior? The NYT caters to the .1%. Suppose it's like campaign finance - they don't like it, but it pays the bills.
15
I just hate when I see people driving nicer cars and wearing finer clothes than I. Don't they know how that makes me feel? Why should I have to confront the consequences of my poor, or "less good", decisions in public. It just doesn't fair.
As Dennis in MONTY PYTHON'S HOLY GRAIL might say today, "Help me. I'm being micro-aggressed".
As Dennis in MONTY PYTHON'S HOLY GRAIL might say today, "Help me. I'm being micro-aggressed".
5
If the rich and wealthy want to spend their money this way that is their choice. My question is why so many people would want to spend their hard earned money to be on a big boat with all you can eat buffets.
12
I'm a male Republican 1%er. Here's my take on the article and comments: there's always been a disparity between rich and poor it's just that the poor today have a higher sense of entitlement than they used to. The masses actually believe they deserve better.
10
Seems unfair? Fear not, teeming masses. Soon the PC police will arrange a Supreme Court decision that anyone who 'identifes' with the pampered rich enjoys a right and demand to the whatever they enjoy.
2
It does not bother me at all that other people have more money than I do. Nor that this money enables them to buy things that I cannot afford. To be concerned about that is envy, a very unhealthy practice. I am grateful for what I have, work hard to advance, and I consciously enjoy the things that I do have.
15
Being sanctimonious: priceless.
4
Being pejorative is not an effective counterargument
1
Why is this sanctimonious? Many people feel this way and appreciate what they have.
1
This gives me a sinking feeling (pun intended), reminiscient of the way
things were before the French Revolution. The difference is
that WE buy the illusion that, unlike the French back then, we can change things
through elections. But if the elected officials require tens or hundreds of millions to run for office, aren't they literally "bought" by those the French overthrew?
things were before the French Revolution. The difference is
that WE buy the illusion that, unlike the French back then, we can change things
through elections. But if the elected officials require tens or hundreds of millions to run for office, aren't they literally "bought" by those the French overthrew?
8
It strikes me as ironic that the topic of choice for analysis here is expensive vacations. Consider that anyone who can afford a $3000 cruise is lucky indeed; that he or she can't afford the top-end version of that experience and thus becomes bitter is a true reflection of how disconnected many of us are from the reality of our privilege compared to many in the world...
6
Good article. The caste system is also practiced in college sports. The current trend is to convert more seats to luxury boxes and only serve alcohol to the more expensive seats. I support "getting what you pay for" but transparency is critical; everyone should be fully informed what they are signing up for prior to purchase.
2
If luxury amenities for a price are a societal problem, this article has that problem backwards. The troubling effect here isn't what such benefits do to the market, it is what they do to people. Anybody who has worked in the travel/hospitality industry can tell you stories about how the most entitled classes see themselves as qualified not just because they have more money, but because they are a superior class of person. Snobbery is nothing new, of course, but abetting it at extremes in the marketplace has a corrosive effect on how society functions as a whole.
9
There is a fundamental problem underlying all of this in the West: Labour in the world is not in short supply any more, not skilled, not unskilled, so it is becoming cheaper all of the time. Can't find it in the US, find it somewhere else. Secondly Western markets are saturated so companies are once again, like the pre-20th century markets, focusing on just the very wealthy to drive margins.
3
Not only is labor not in short supply but increasing demands for a "living minimum wage" will result increasingly more expensive no-skill / low-skill workers being replaced with increasingly less expensive and more capable automation.
3
Unfortunately, in pursuit of creating a gap between those that have, and those that have less, the marketing mavens have perverted the concept of incentives to include not only new benefits at the top, but the imposition of new detriments at the bottom.
Why bear the cost of adding luxury when you can impose misery at even less expense? If the goal is to create a gap then make the select a little better, but make the masses miserable, then more miserable.
In air travel sardine class is painful and even first class is a pale shadow of what it used to be.
Why bear the cost of adding luxury when you can impose misery at even less expense? If the goal is to create a gap then make the select a little better, but make the masses miserable, then more miserable.
In air travel sardine class is painful and even first class is a pale shadow of what it used to be.
4
So it's a gated community on a cruise ship. What is the point of even writing about this? Separating ourselves from the rabble is a basic human right. Even those of us without the means to go this far do our best to live in places without the undesirable elements in our faces or use headphones on public transit so as to not have to hear those constantly asking for money. We live in a blessed free country which includes spending our resources as we see fit and protecting and defending our comfort zones.
8
It has always been this way, and will always be.
The planet is owned, all of it, including it's majority peasant inhabitants, by the worldwide Plutocracy, the .01%ters, who reign, protected in their domains, protected by the money they disburse to control and manipulate governments, police agencies, the military, all major national and international corporations, the media worldwide, ending in cost of living rigging to maintain economic slavery for the great
The planet is owned, all of it, including it's majority peasant inhabitants, by the worldwide Plutocracy, the .01%ters, who reign, protected in their domains, protected by the money they disburse to control and manipulate governments, police agencies, the military, all major national and international corporations, the media worldwide, ending in cost of living rigging to maintain economic slavery for the great
1
The premise of this article and its adherents, like (most importantly) the President and the cited professors from elite schools, is creepy scary. These rabble rousers are grooming people who frequent amusement parks, airplanes and cruise ships, with smart phones, flat screen HD TVs, and with enough food to eat to make them obese to focus on envy and jealousy. They are creating and then striking discontent. It is the worst and most dangerous kind of populism. It's Animal Farm and it doesn't work. And the President and Harvard professors have never slept in the barn; they are already in the farmer's house.
5
So, there are Trump-lovers (quoted or profiled in many media reports) of very modest means who support him, they say, because his much-flaunted wealth proves his success and value as a leader, and Bernie true believers with a similar net worth who rail against anyone in that top 1% or anyone beholden to Wall Street as corrupt. America seems schizophrenic on this issue. I'd love to hear a psychologist, sociologist, or economist explain this. Or do youth and/or education simply tend to breed discontent with the status quo?
1
It's interesting hoe left-leaning publications are increasingly discussing the wealth gap but loathe to probe its root causes. It's obvious that giving away our manufacturing sector has had a disastrous effect on the country and that flooding the country with illegal labor has cut the bottom out from former blue collar service jobs. It's probably hard for economists and Yale grads to imagine that a lot of people used to make a decent living mowing lawns and roofing, but they did.
I suppose it is hard for the country at large to face the idea that the entire economics profession and its liberal one-world ideology has been absurdly wrong about everything for the last forty years and led the country down a black hole, but better late than never.
I suppose it is hard for the country at large to face the idea that the entire economics profession and its liberal one-world ideology has been absurdly wrong about everything for the last forty years and led the country down a black hole, but better late than never.
6
I don't think that pointing out that people who pay a lot more money get somewhat nicer accomadations (a seperate entrance, higher thread-count sheets) is exactly news. First class and nicer staterooms on ships have existed for as long as I can remember. Frankly, a lot of the wealthy wouldn't get on these ships in the first place. There is an entirely differnet market for very affluent people. There are cruise lines, like SilverSea and SeaDream, which cater exclusively to upscale customers. And of course, the superwealthy could just rent a private yacht.
For those concerned about the rise in income inequality, which is definitely a real thing in modern America, let's focus on the causes and not the symptoms. Favorable tax treatment for capital gains, favorable tax treatment for inhereted wealth, greater ease for hiding wealth in "nonprofits", etc. If people can earn their wealth fairly, they have a right to enjoy it.
For those concerned about the rise in income inequality, which is definitely a real thing in modern America, let's focus on the causes and not the symptoms. Favorable tax treatment for capital gains, favorable tax treatment for inhereted wealth, greater ease for hiding wealth in "nonprofits", etc. If people can earn their wealth fairly, they have a right to enjoy it.
6
Generally I have no problem with the uber-rich flexing their economic status and buying all those glittering baubles. They are competing with their peers, to the disdain of course of the 99%. It looks pathetic.
However, where I do draw the line is where their provided privilege comes at the direct expense of the 99%. And even worse is when the extra service being provided to them comes at the direct expense of the 99%.
There is no more egregious place that this happens than in our airline industry. The rich are whisked through separate lines while the masses wait for their lords to be served. Young children squirm in their seats while the first class passenger's bathroom sits empty. An equal amount of flight attendants care for their precious 16 while the other 150 passengers wait for their pittance.
This will only be corrected, as usual, by Federal law. And the rich conservatives wonder why we have so many laws? It's not crime, it's them.
However, where I do draw the line is where their provided privilege comes at the direct expense of the 99%. And even worse is when the extra service being provided to them comes at the direct expense of the 99%.
There is no more egregious place that this happens than in our airline industry. The rich are whisked through separate lines while the masses wait for their lords to be served. Young children squirm in their seats while the first class passenger's bathroom sits empty. An equal amount of flight attendants care for their precious 16 while the other 150 passengers wait for their pittance.
This will only be corrected, as usual, by Federal law. And the rich conservatives wonder why we have so many laws? It's not crime, it's them.
3
On cruise ships, this doesn't bother me. Personally, i would not want to spend a ton of money on a vacation - an experience I would hope to enjoy - where my voyage was tarnished by never-ending in-my-face reminders of my second class status.
But then, between the Costa Concordia which capsized, killing 32, and Carnival Triumph, one of many cruise ships on which a vacation became a calamity when the vessel lost all power, cruises are not on my bucket list.
So, the article describes an aspect of the growing disparity in wealth distribution that while a problem, is not really one of great consequence. Some people can afford jewelry with multicarat diamonds, while others must settle for cubic zirconia. The rich can keep track of time on a Rolex, the 99% use Timexes. (A quartz Timex is likely to be much more accurate than the mechanical Rolex, by the way). No big deal.
But as these differences extend to include hospitals and essential services, then we have a serious problem that very much needs to be addressed.
But then, between the Costa Concordia which capsized, killing 32, and Carnival Triumph, one of many cruise ships on which a vacation became a calamity when the vessel lost all power, cruises are not on my bucket list.
So, the article describes an aspect of the growing disparity in wealth distribution that while a problem, is not really one of great consequence. Some people can afford jewelry with multicarat diamonds, while others must settle for cubic zirconia. The rich can keep track of time on a Rolex, the 99% use Timexes. (A quartz Timex is likely to be much more accurate than the mechanical Rolex, by the way). No big deal.
But as these differences extend to include hospitals and essential services, then we have a serious problem that very much needs to be addressed.
6
Glad NYT discovered this human phenomena that has existed since the dawn of time. Even communist countries have a hierarchy like our neighbor Cuba where the Castro's have their billions and the peons somewhat less. Within the hierarchy some are always more equal than others. The real issue for society is not what the well-to-do do with their money but how we do encourage those in need and how we provide appropriate assistance. Assistance should be intended to get a person from point A to point B, where point A is their current condition with all its baggage (drugs, historically poor family, emotional issues, physical issues, etc). Point B is the realistic occupation and minimal level of care required to live with basic needs met and functional. While the infamous 1% could probably cough up a little more they actually are quite generous. The most significant factor in their contribution is that it generally goes to organizations that are more efficient in operation than the main inhibitor to people reaching point B. The government has failed miserably. We, being the government, have failed to get people beyond a minimal subsistence leaving them trapped in dependency. There are abrupt cut offs that make it better to make little than more. We have these devices called computers that should be exploited to fix this problem. If a person working but at poverty level should not lose $100 support for a $10 raise. The scale should be tilted to encourage success not penalize it.
2
How interesting! It seems that the USA has moved from being the home of 'egality, friendship and democracy' to an oligarchy (unstated) in just over 8 generations.
" Always put your money on Self Interest to win, you know its always going to be trying".
Time to wake up guys!!
" Always put your money on Self Interest to win, you know its always going to be trying".
Time to wake up guys!!
1
Good riddins, leave 'em there. You make it sound as if these types of holidays are the envy of your readers. Low impact holidays are a lot more fun and the folks you meet are friendlier.
4
Disgusting and dangerous.
1
I can't imagine wanting to take a cruise on one of those mega-ships regardless of class.
4
Nonsense.
When the first and business class sections of a transcontinental flight are sold without discount , the flight has financially broken even thus all of the economy section is profit and can be sold off at great discount.
Yes, the economy passengers don't really pay their way.
Its the same with the ship....the extra staff and operating cost of the Haven are no where near the obscene amount of money people pay to be there,,,,so that extra money subsidizes the 3 girlfriends on their basic 'cruise of a lifetime'.
Of course they could make smaller ships and planes catering only to the wealthy.......but then most ordinary folk won't be flying overseas or going on a cruise, riding the coattails of the rich....
Have it either way.
When the first and business class sections of a transcontinental flight are sold without discount , the flight has financially broken even thus all of the economy section is profit and can be sold off at great discount.
Yes, the economy passengers don't really pay their way.
Its the same with the ship....the extra staff and operating cost of the Haven are no where near the obscene amount of money people pay to be there,,,,so that extra money subsidizes the 3 girlfriends on their basic 'cruise of a lifetime'.
Of course they could make smaller ships and planes catering only to the wealthy.......but then most ordinary folk won't be flying overseas or going on a cruise, riding the coattails of the rich....
Have it either way.
3
I'm not sure if it is true that the extra money paid by the luxury passengers are subsidizing the average passengers. More than likely the Cruise ship company is putting the additional money to its bottom line and if they are publicly traded to its shareholders. I think the major takeaway from this article is to understand that the drive for excess living by the uber rich is becoming insatiable. When does it become too much. It's sad that those with so much want to spend just for the sake of spending and to show others that they have more wealth than the others on the ship. A cruise ship is designed to provide a leisure service to people who want to be catered to and it has been doing that for years. I don't know why those who have more can't enjoy a certain level of service. It always has to be more just because they have the money. You see this behavior permeate more and more in our society.
There are booze cruises to nowhere and there are very sophisticated cruises, like Seabourn, which include speakers who are writers, professors and diplomats as part of their programs. Their clientele is well-educated and well-travelled.
I have travelled all over the world, sometimes on a cruise and sometimes on a more rugged tour which included sleeping in a tent in the Sahara.
All cruising cannot be described as a bubble where you don't get a true experience of the countries you visit. And painting people who enjoy cruising as unsophisticated is ridiculous.
I have travelled all over the world, sometimes on a cruise and sometimes on a more rugged tour which included sleeping in a tent in the Sahara.
All cruising cannot be described as a bubble where you don't get a true experience of the countries you visit. And painting people who enjoy cruising as unsophisticated is ridiculous.
6
Disgusting. That being said, I wouldn't want to be waited on hand and foot in the first place.
How sadly ironic that the very people who write such articles at the NYT are likely the Ivy educated elites whom such articles disparage, all in the name of class warfare.
2
All I can think of when reading this email article is the carbon footprint of this clientele. It makes me seethe that there is no carbon tax to reflect the cost of these people to the only planet we have to call home.
2
I've noticed that on my last cruise on Oasis of the Seas. A clear diminution of food quality and services on the ship. If you want decent food you have to pay more. Everyone used to get the same good food and amenities of the ship. Now it's in right in your face. I see tiers of cruise fares now and while not steerage you will see an expanded class system aboard ships.
This article raises some very interesting points but let's look at it from the viewpoint of the person providing goods and services. If a certain customer wanted a very specific item or level of service that required my additional time and effort, as well as my spending additional money to source that item, then I think it would be reasonable for me to charge more to compensate me for my time, effort and added costs.
Not everyone may want or be able to pay for that item or level or service, but should I not be allowed to offer it if there is the customer demand for it? Should people be prevented from asking and paying for such items and services? If the answers are "No" to these questions, then as a practical matter what's the point of this article?
Not everyone may want or be able to pay for that item or level or service, but should I not be allowed to offer it if there is the customer demand for it? Should people be prevented from asking and paying for such items and services? If the answers are "No" to these questions, then as a practical matter what's the point of this article?
2
Companies charge more for services which cost more to provide? What scandal!
People with more money can afford to buy more and more expensive things? Holy cow!
I thought most children by about age 6-8 had already figured this out.
People with more money can afford to buy more and more expensive things? Holy cow!
I thought most children by about age 6-8 had already figured this out.
2
The NCL Haven and staff are the greatest. I get more than I pay for with them. I like dining in better restaurants and I am willing to pay extra for that privilege.
I am that special passenger who appreciates what luxury cruising has to offer over just being on a boat. I enjoy dressing for breakfast, lunch and dinner. I do it out of respect for the staff and crew who are working very hard to earn my patronage.
To believe that somehow my willingness to pay for luxury travel is unfair to the rest of the passengers, as if I were participating in some sort of class warfare, is silly. To believe that I should not be allowed to spend my money to enjoy myself apart from slobs is somehow causing inequality only shows the continued bias of the writer and the NYTimes towards hardworking people. Pandering is the worst form of Journalism.
I am that special passenger who appreciates what luxury cruising has to offer over just being on a boat. I enjoy dressing for breakfast, lunch and dinner. I do it out of respect for the staff and crew who are working very hard to earn my patronage.
To believe that somehow my willingness to pay for luxury travel is unfair to the rest of the passengers, as if I were participating in some sort of class warfare, is silly. To believe that I should not be allowed to spend my money to enjoy myself apart from slobs is somehow causing inequality only shows the continued bias of the writer and the NYTimes towards hardworking people. Pandering is the worst form of Journalism.
5
"In an age of privilege?" As opposed to all those other non-privileged ages? Stop the presses. The New York Times has an exclusive.
3
These customers are the same ones that are against universal health care insurance, Wall Street regulation and estate taxes.
We are humans. Biologically unequal in perpetual competition for scarce resources. We compete for and trade in the currency of capital, social and financial and political.
I married a beautiful women less handsome men could not have successfully pursued. But I could not have successfully pursued those prettier still.
I want to play in the NBA but at 5'9" that's not going to happen.
We value the cardiologist more than the sheet metal worker or secretary or mason. It's that simple.
But we value the non cardiologist at near to zero at our peril. This is what we are sadly doing too much lately. The 'commons' - whether a village green, clean water, a public high school, or the airwaves during an election - is in deep trouble.
I married a beautiful women less handsome men could not have successfully pursued. But I could not have successfully pursued those prettier still.
I want to play in the NBA but at 5'9" that's not going to happen.
We value the cardiologist more than the sheet metal worker or secretary or mason. It's that simple.
But we value the non cardiologist at near to zero at our peril. This is what we are sadly doing too much lately. The 'commons' - whether a village green, clean water, a public high school, or the airwaves during an election - is in deep trouble.
1
I have to laugh at the New York Times giving full-page treatment to the idea of a "new" economic caste system. You mean not everyone can buy the same privileges?? Shocking. Have you ever looked at your own newspaper? Like, even a glance? Take a look at today's Stule section. Page 3 has a small feature about backpacks. With a straight face, it says "In time for warmer weather are backpacks in rich camels and creams. One from Bryedo ($2,950, Bryedo.com), left, has two roomy outer pockets..."
That is by no means an anomaly. The Times caters to this economic caste system every day. (Whether it should is not my argument. Luxury goods have their place.). But to clutch your pearls about it on the front page is so laughable.
That is by no means an anomaly. The Times caters to this economic caste system every day. (Whether it should is not my argument. Luxury goods have their place.). But to clutch your pearls about it on the front page is so laughable.
9
Yet another reason to bring back the draft.
Cool. Now get inside an assortment of public, private, and parochial schools in any given city in America. That will be a story....
2
Gee - I'd like a full summer rental in the Hampton's - but $30,000 wouldn't get one into a run down bungalow for that fee. The really big homes all seem to belong to or are rented by those of NYC wealth and "progressive" bent - progressive except, of course, when they vacation.
3
As one who has spent quite a bit of time among the 1% -- at yacht races in Fiji, Singapore and Thailand, at various exotic resorts to which I used to deliver yachts, in race days at the Nurburgring courtesy a wealthy and insistent cousin and, in more recent times working in advertising -- I'm thrilled to share with all my fellow 99%-ers that the 1% are among the least fascinating, most annoying, shallow, childish, screwed-up people the planet.
Trust me, you ain't missing much.
Trust me, you ain't missing much.
6
Are we going back to medieval times social systems? Is history repeating itself again? It seems this way today..... from kings to landowners to serfs;
from corporations to bankers to the poor. Maybe we never left.....
from corporations to bankers to the poor. Maybe we never left.....
1
Forget cruise sips. Those are low rent. On our 25 foot 30 year old sailboat my daughter an I have anchored, moored and docked beside the mega yachts of the 0.001% on numerous occasions. Their captains bring the 100+ ft yachts into harbors on Nantucket and Martha's Vineyard and the owners meet their yachts by flying to the islands on private jets.
They can have that lifestyle. It doesn't appeal to me at all.
I prefer being the captain of my own ship and making my own coffee in the morning. But I do hope to upgrade to 35' soon!
They can have that lifestyle. It doesn't appeal to me at all.
I prefer being the captain of my own ship and making my own coffee in the morning. But I do hope to upgrade to 35' soon!
5
“Down scale items like canned meat or tobacco aren’t drawing as many entrants into the market.” Not so sure there is a problem if those two things disappeared.
Working at a farm taught me that everything changes and that the surplus of one season won’t necessarily be there the next. Let the 1% collect and spend; the system will topple at some point. It’s also kind of funny, this transfer of our precious time (at work) for mere commodities. Bizarre, actually. There is great richness in simple things and I’ll go luddite for a minute and say our teched-up culture moves more and more away from that knowledge. Collecting and spending money doesn’t seem a fulfilling way to live life.
I’ll agree that the rich know of and protect the division of classes. But I kind of understand it. It’s like when you go to the beach and find a quiet spot and someone shows up with his/her music. I’d pay to have a velvet rope to cross. So I am not they are at fault, by default of their wealth, to seek out more pleasant experiences. We all do that within our means. But those human rights issues within rich/poor distribution -- I don’t know what to do about it.
Working at a farm taught me that everything changes and that the surplus of one season won’t necessarily be there the next. Let the 1% collect and spend; the system will topple at some point. It’s also kind of funny, this transfer of our precious time (at work) for mere commodities. Bizarre, actually. There is great richness in simple things and I’ll go luddite for a minute and say our teched-up culture moves more and more away from that knowledge. Collecting and spending money doesn’t seem a fulfilling way to live life.
I’ll agree that the rich know of and protect the division of classes. But I kind of understand it. It’s like when you go to the beach and find a quiet spot and someone shows up with his/her music. I’d pay to have a velvet rope to cross. So I am not they are at fault, by default of their wealth, to seek out more pleasant experiences. We all do that within our means. But those human rights issues within rich/poor distribution -- I don’t know what to do about it.
1
I am reminded of the Steven King novella "The Running Man" (originally published by Richard Bachman."
It's a dystopian story about an extremely highly stratifed society, with everything that poor people go through today -- the protagonist works at a nuclear power plant without any safeguards for radiation, his wife works "on her back." (!) The air is extremely polluted to the point where the rich put cotton filters in their noses to filter the polluted air.
The game shows reflect this dystopia, usually they are literally life-and-death games, including the one that the protagonist ends up playing. His ability to escape the agents affiliated with the game show culminates with his hijacking a plane and crashing it into the building that is the headquarters of all the game shows and other elements of high society.
The book was written around 1983, but I always wondered whether Osama Bin Laden took inspiration from it, so many years later.
It's a dystopian story about an extremely highly stratifed society, with everything that poor people go through today -- the protagonist works at a nuclear power plant without any safeguards for radiation, his wife works "on her back." (!) The air is extremely polluted to the point where the rich put cotton filters in their noses to filter the polluted air.
The game shows reflect this dystopia, usually they are literally life-and-death games, including the one that the protagonist ends up playing. His ability to escape the agents affiliated with the game show culminates with his hijacking a plane and crashing it into the building that is the headquarters of all the game shows and other elements of high society.
The book was written around 1983, but I always wondered whether Osama Bin Laden took inspiration from it, so many years later.
The rich will always be with us. If the economy does not afford the rich something to spend their money on then the entire economy will contract
resulting in a generally lower level of employment.
Furthermore, the political leaders who decry the existence of a wealthy
class of citizens and are "Fighting for YOU", mysteriously wind up very rich indeed.
resulting in a generally lower level of employment.
Furthermore, the political leaders who decry the existence of a wealthy
class of citizens and are "Fighting for YOU", mysteriously wind up very rich indeed.
1
Wow, you couldn't pay me to take this rich person's so-called vacation. Sounds stultifyingly boring. These people haven't "vacated" their usual lives - they've duplicated their usual lives with a different view.
5
The problem with this is that it is a culture that will eventually pervade our medical and legal systems or has that happened already ? Then it will become more severe than it already is.
3
I don't buy into the income inequality gap mantra. There is good capitalism and bad capitalism. Good capitalism is sustainable. Bad capitalism is not sustainable. Good capitalism provides equal access to beaming rich. Bad capitalism does't not.
In other words. If you build it. They buy it. You pay your workers a livable wage. You earned it. You are free to do as you please with your money. You are a good capitalist. However. If you didn't build it. You just sold it to the hight bidder. Or, played financial games for gains with other peoples money and didn't pay your workers right. You are a bad capitalist.
So if you earned the luxury being a good capitalist. Enjoy Haven. Only when you give money aways to good causes do you become a great capitalist.
In other words. If you build it. They buy it. You pay your workers a livable wage. You earned it. You are free to do as you please with your money. You are a good capitalist. However. If you didn't build it. You just sold it to the hight bidder. Or, played financial games for gains with other peoples money and didn't pay your workers right. You are a bad capitalist.
So if you earned the luxury being a good capitalist. Enjoy Haven. Only when you give money aways to good causes do you become a great capitalist.
5
This is one of the silliest left wing problems ever invented by them. It's right up there with the pretend war on women. True war on women is far from republicans. Look to the far east for that. There has always been people with more money and there always will be. They furnish the jobs. Get over it and move on. The democrats have created the increase in the poor. By giving what we call entitlements to people we give just enough to make them slaves. They are now having to quit jobs to keep their free medical while working people have to buy their medical but can't afford the co-pays to use it. Congratulations to this administration which is destroying the middle class. You finally got what you want.
12
What do you mean companies are “creating a money-based caste system.” We have had a parallel money-race caste system since the 1700s. Or is it that you are going to tell me that the Founding Fathers were all just working stiffs or even middle-class?
10
How foolish, the age of privilege was a long time ago when royalty was the only way to a decent life. Today in the US there is no such thing as privilege for large groups. Sure some have advantages that they did not earn, that has always been the case. Trying to divide us by race or class is typical of those that can't compete.
6
The Haven experience won't mirror life in America until the cruise line starts vetting passengers the way co-op boards do would-be owners.
6
Vacations themselves are a luxury for many people. I've been a fan of budget travel since my college days--why pay more than you need to? If some people are willing to pay more, I guess that's their privilege, but I think they are foolish.
6
This phenomenon is a big reason why empathy is so lacking these days. Wealthy people have no idea of the daily uncountable hassles most people face, and we end up with a real gap between what different groups experience and how they perceive the "other."
8
This important article only proves to me that our values are arbitrary. Liberty? Justice? Equality? Bah humbug If you have certain numbers in your financial account no matter how you gained them you can do pretty much anything you wish including the best lawyers and jail cell if you need them. But how likely is that when all your sins are hidden in an overseas bank account or corporate logo. Trump does not lose money when he goes bankrupt and his investers barely feel it as their slush funds are there as a golden parachute. Money is an arbitrary commodity, but as a society it is far and away the one valued most as it allows those who have it to ignore every other human value.
5
While this isn't exactly new, it has gotten much worse lately. Today when you follow the trail backwards in time from situations like this you might see: 1) 99% having little to spend on things like this that aren't core needs 2) caused by previously losing a large portion of their earned resources through job loss in a depressed economy 3) caused by an economic collapse due to members of our capitalist structure being allowed to circumvent capitalism for their own gain 4) caused by members of our government across the party spectrum selling this ability for their own personal gains (money and political power).
A few takeaways from this: not knowing the reality of history can mean losing everything. Not knowing the reality of people (that when allowed most of us will choose advantage for ourselves even at the cost of others) can mean losing everything. Not knowing the reality of focused power (the power of government granted to individuals and what occurs when they are allowed to choose advantage for themselves over others) can mean losing everything. Side note: angles like this might suggest that government (at least one not continuously held in check by its people) isn't necessarily the answer to so many problems that so many of us think it is. Can you imagine what might have happened if we the general population had discovered even as little as say exactly what the SEC was doing before 2008?
A few takeaways from this: not knowing the reality of history can mean losing everything. Not knowing the reality of people (that when allowed most of us will choose advantage for ourselves even at the cost of others) can mean losing everything. Not knowing the reality of focused power (the power of government granted to individuals and what occurs when they are allowed to choose advantage for themselves over others) can mean losing everything. Side note: angles like this might suggest that government (at least one not continuously held in check by its people) isn't necessarily the answer to so many problems that so many of us think it is. Can you imagine what might have happened if we the general population had discovered even as little as say exactly what the SEC was doing before 2008?
2
It was called "First Class" since the beginning of the currency based economic model way back when ships had sails but was deleted as a concept during one of the "political correctness" sweeps of the latter 20th century...
"Economic classes" were a way for "Business" to take advantage of their wealthier clientele's sense of entitlement and snobbishness bilking them for more money. Economic classes where also a way for the wealthier clientele to travel more comfortably and safer with cleaner, healthier accommodations and food away from the unwashed masses.
Cleaner and healthier may no longer apply as it once did, but sense of entitlement and snobbishness are still alive, well and willing to pay for privilege. It follows that as long as "Rich" is willing to pay, "Business" will be willing to provide and collect.
"Economic classes" were a way for "Business" to take advantage of their wealthier clientele's sense of entitlement and snobbishness bilking them for more money. Economic classes where also a way for the wealthier clientele to travel more comfortably and safer with cleaner, healthier accommodations and food away from the unwashed masses.
Cleaner and healthier may no longer apply as it once did, but sense of entitlement and snobbishness are still alive, well and willing to pay for privilege. It follows that as long as "Rich" is willing to pay, "Business" will be willing to provide and collect.
1
As society at large gets coarser, ruder, and grosser, is it surprising that some people seek a 'haven' from it?
3
One man's yearly income is another man's club dues.
7
If owning a boat may be thought of us a hole in the water in which you pour money, than a cruise ship might be thought of as a shooting a hole in your head. I cannot think of a less appealing way to spend a week.
13
Obviously you've never been on a cruise.
The SS Reagan is steaming towards an iceberg. More taxes and higher wages or building guillotines. That will be the choices we're going to face
10
The care and feeding of narcissists. These people are paying not for the value of their favorite Scotch but for affirmation of their specialness.
10
Readers of this article feel they are even getting less then they were..ultimately decisions like royal carrribean would lose their market share where their bread is ..they will be left with the butter
Not that I envy the rich, but if I were really rich would I go on a Norwegian or Royal cruise? Isn't this like a first class section at McDonalds? I mean you get your burgers quicker, and maybe handed by a concierge, but still, it's a McDs and not the Four Seasons.
19
Cant' wait till these corporate ultra wealthy client databases get hacked and names, addresses, credit card data, dates of travel, major luxury purchases, etc, get spilled on the web.
Then digi savvy Willy Suttons will be able to more easily target their victims while they are away from their homes (thnk burglars), while traveling (think stolen cc purchases)
When disgruntled IT workers chose to exploit their expertise (think Snowden) these .01% may regret their lack of empathy for the 99% (think tips to IRS for 10% reward, tips to regulators and prosecutors for criminal and personal indictment)
Thanks to misuse or mistaken use of 'Big Data' predictive analytics it will be interesting when a .01% - er gets embarassed before business associates, family, or other communities (think recent mishap sending congratulations to husband, before wife told him of her pregnancy)
Then digi savvy Willy Suttons will be able to more easily target their victims while they are away from their homes (thnk burglars), while traveling (think stolen cc purchases)
When disgruntled IT workers chose to exploit their expertise (think Snowden) these .01% may regret their lack of empathy for the 99% (think tips to IRS for 10% reward, tips to regulators and prosecutors for criminal and personal indictment)
Thanks to misuse or mistaken use of 'Big Data' predictive analytics it will be interesting when a .01% - er gets embarassed before business associates, family, or other communities (think recent mishap sending congratulations to husband, before wife told him of her pregnancy)
2
Anyone who gets on one of these floating nightmares, no matter how much money they have on display, has lost their way in life.
11
To quote JFK: "If we cannot help the many who are poor we cannot hope to save the few who are rich." Something the super-coddled might reflect upon as they demand ever more pampering, along with the events in France in 1789, in Russia in 1917, in China in 1949 and in Cuba in 1959. Wonder why Bernie was able to step out of nowhere and draw the biggest crowds in American political history? Just imagine if Bernie were in his 40s or 50s! I'm just saying ....
13
What comes to mind (of a middle class guy who worked his way through college): in the 50s a major California university was given the Model U.N. role of representing Cuba; whereas, our neighbor, Stanford, was the U.S.A.
On the train to the Model U.N. (at U of WA), we were snubbed (!) by Stanford students! Unforgettable.
On the train to the Model U.N. (at U of WA), we were snubbed (!) by Stanford students! Unforgettable.
1
The article describes practices that have always been with mankind.
4
There will always be someone with more money or less money than you, and people have choices and priorities on how they choose to spend it.
4
As our media and our politicians continue to stoke the fires of class warfare throughout the United States let's keep in mind how well that idea worked in Russia in 1917. Do we really want to bring back a "classless" society where the "state" takes care of all ones needs? We all know how that worked out.
2
The only difference between Russia and The US is, they fell first. Our day of reconning is comming.
And is it any wonder that once customers step off the Norwegian, they might expect they should be able to buy little Johnny a place at Princeton, or buy their Senator's support for a new tax cut? If "you pay for certain elements," as the story's kicker says, "you deserve them."
5
The rich and poor coexists since the dawn of humanity. The poor and peasant always and will rise up and take over the kitchen for the rich when their buffet running out food. The history is littered with the bloodsheds as the results of peasant uprising and notable examples are many- Wat Tyler's Rebellion of the 14th century in England, Great Peasant War of Germany in the 16th century, and Bolshevik revolution of the 20th century in Russia.
My wife and I recently travelled on a Norwegian Cruise Line ship and found it to be exactly how you have described it in your article. That said, all the cruise lines treat passengers in this fashion. It's nothing new. Some are worse than others. Indeed, in a number of respects cruise lines are no different than the airlines--that is, there are two classes: First and Steerage. And also like the airlines, they need to be ignored as much as possible.
1
Let me see if I understand this. There are people want to take a vacation from their regular lives, so they book passage on “The Escape.” Then other people want to avoid all those "Escapees," so they take refuge in “The Haven.” I think I’ll go to “The Retreat,” aka my backyard, and do some gardening.
11
The Titanic is an apt metaphor.
The heart of the article is missed by most posting here.
In previous times a company could not make it marketing to just 1% of the population, since our national wealth was more evenly distributed. But now that 1% controls 42% of our national wealth (and growing), it is actually simpler for those who provide goods and services to direct their marketing focus across a narrower range of consumers. So...why bother with the rest of us?
I see this in the local super market ironically called "Publix" where a boutique atmosphere prevails and basic items will cost you a packet. Who cares if the average family can't afford $5/pound for chicken? With margins like that, Publix can stock and sell less, the riff raff go elsewhere, and the well-to-do get an exclusive "Haven-like" food shopping experience. No EBT'ers there!
The heart of the article is missed by most posting here.
In previous times a company could not make it marketing to just 1% of the population, since our national wealth was more evenly distributed. But now that 1% controls 42% of our national wealth (and growing), it is actually simpler for those who provide goods and services to direct their marketing focus across a narrower range of consumers. So...why bother with the rest of us?
I see this in the local super market ironically called "Publix" where a boutique atmosphere prevails and basic items will cost you a packet. Who cares if the average family can't afford $5/pound for chicken? With margins like that, Publix can stock and sell less, the riff raff go elsewhere, and the well-to-do get an exclusive "Haven-like" food shopping experience. No EBT'ers there!
11
I have spent a few weeks/year in Vero Beach, FL for the last 4 years and noticed that there is not much competition when it comes to supermarkets. Publix is all over, only a short drive the one from the other. What really made me want to boycott the place is that Florida grapefruit, grown around the corner costs the same or more in Publix (and The Fresh Food Market) than in my supermarket in Luxembourg, thousands of miles away, on the other side of the Atlantic!!
2
They might imagine that they are not all in the same boat.
Remember Winona LaDuke who said' "We don't want a bigger piece of the pie. We want a different pie."
Remember Winona LaDuke who said' "We don't want a bigger piece of the pie. We want a different pie."
2
Great. Corporations should keep creating separate experiences for the entitled class. These perks keep some self-centered people away from hiking trails, cheap cafes, and interesting, but uncomfortable adventures.
14
Boarding the plane or the ship ahead of the rest of us causes mild resentment. The rich getting to the lifeboats first can cause revolution. Having special areas on the cruise ship is an in-your-face insult from the very rich to the rest of us but is merely a cause of resentment and envy. Being able to buy elections via Citizens United is a FAR more serious example of the privilege of wealth. Further, the ability to purchase justice by being able to afford good lawyers is an advantage accorded to the rich that can be seen everywhere in this country on a very regular basis. These are the kinds of privileges that cause serious social/political instability in a society and merit the attention of the media. Better accommodations on a cruise ship is a trivial matter, is nothing new or surprising and is a legitimate, harmless perquisite of having more money, annoying though it may be. I've been to Paris many times and have either rented a cheap apartment or stayed in an inexpensive hotel. I'd love to stay at the George V but I can't afford it. I don't resent those who can however, reflecting that there are millions who can't afford to visit Paris at all. Sometimes one should simply count the blessings one does have and not be consumed with envy of those who seem to have more.
13
bravo. we need to focus on what is more important.
At my age I, and curiously enough my wife prefer to share an executive suite on a large around 60.000 tons vessel fluctuating between Tallinn and Helsinki on the lead colored Baltic Sea. For my 66th birthday on May 9, we reserved mere two balcony suites to avoid snoring from Helsinki to Stockholm and back on M/S Silja Symphony. A ship large enough to have a central promenade for less fortunate travelers sleeping in the same bed while we don't need share a cabin.
The price for us is for two nights 82 euros each including drinks in frigs and a special breakfast, entrance to the Commodore club, less than tenth the less fortunate pay for for this. The reason why is that we are repeat customers, having bought all our alcohol for six years from their ships at the third of the prices charged by the Finnish monopoly, Alko. Yes, yes we have cruised Caribbean and Mediterranean sharing an inside cabin proving that in spite of the snoring we stay married. Nowadays we prefer separate suites rather than me wearing a black tie and acting like a gentleman, which I am not!
The price for us is for two nights 82 euros each including drinks in frigs and a special breakfast, entrance to the Commodore club, less than tenth the less fortunate pay for for this. The reason why is that we are repeat customers, having bought all our alcohol for six years from their ships at the third of the prices charged by the Finnish monopoly, Alko. Yes, yes we have cruised Caribbean and Mediterranean sharing an inside cabin proving that in spite of the snoring we stay married. Nowadays we prefer separate suites rather than me wearing a black tie and acting like a gentleman, which I am not!
3
This is truly the American way. You want excellent and personalized service then you have to pay for it. In our CPA practice we lavish personal attention to our wealthy clients who are willing to pay for the service. We do not want to compete ever with H & R Block or Turbo Tax. We make more money and the clients get the pampering they want.
7
NVFisherman wrote: "This is truly the American way.... We make more money and the clients get the pampering they want."
It's interesting to me that this would be your response. i would infer that you do not seem to understand at all the implications of the article.
To translate, divisions and individualism in a society make it interesting but taken to ridiculous extremes it begins to become a miserable society to live in for the vast majority because they are only working for other's benefit. As the Romans could have explained, there are different kinds of slaves. The fact that this was so completely lost on you speaks a great deal of who, why and how this all works.
It's interesting to me that this would be your response. i would infer that you do not seem to understand at all the implications of the article.
To translate, divisions and individualism in a society make it interesting but taken to ridiculous extremes it begins to become a miserable society to live in for the vast majority because they are only working for other's benefit. As the Romans could have explained, there are different kinds of slaves. The fact that this was so completely lost on you speaks a great deal of who, why and how this all works.
1
Free markets dictate pricing, winners and losers are determined by hard work along with tenacity. That being said I'm sure you'd never sell your fresh sushi grade tuna for the same price as a catfish and I'm sure your not giving away either......
Sometimes, it is hard to justify paying significantly more for a service that you can enjoy for substantially less if you are willing to make some reasonable compromises. Sitting in the front of the plane for twice the cost or more of sitting the back on a one hour flight, would be a good example. It depends on why you want or need to sit in the front of the plane. Is it because money is irrelevant to you, or because you want to show that you are more important than others, or you are overweight and need a larger seat, or because you get a larger baggage allowance, or you want to get more miles in the airlines loyalty program, and so on? Some reasons may be valid. Some may just be excessive or unwarranted. At the end of the day, if people want to waste their money and they can afford to do so, that is their privilege as antisocial it might seem.
5
Thomas Sander, associated with Harvard, is quoted and in that quote used the phrase "egalitarian dream." The fact that he chose to be associated with Harvard is indicative he does not believe what he espouses. Therefore, everything else he mumbles about equality & opportunity is pure hogwash.
Those of us who are "married with children" all know that each child is not equal but different; their progress in life being dependent on individual decisions & determination.
So it is for every human on earth!
Those of us who are "married with children" all know that each child is not equal but different; their progress in life being dependent on individual decisions & determination.
So it is for every human on earth!
1
"Emmanuel Saez, a professor of economics at the University of California, Berkeley, estimates that the top 1 percent of American households now controls 42 percent of the nation’s wealth, up from less than 30 percent two decades ago." What the author fails to mention is that this is 2012 data and if the trend line is brought to the present, the top 1 percent likely controls 45% of the nation's wealth today.
Is there anything to suggest a reversal of this trend or isn't it more likely that the 1% will once again usher in their preferred candidate for the White House this fall?
Is there anything to suggest a reversal of this trend or isn't it more likely that the 1% will once again usher in their preferred candidate for the White House this fall?
6
It is "Let Them Eat Cake" all over again.
Look up the way the Italians dealt with their fascist, Benito Mussolini.
The way things are going, I'm afraid it is only a matter of time. It can happen here.
Look up the way the Italians dealt with their fascist, Benito Mussolini.
The way things are going, I'm afraid it is only a matter of time. It can happen here.
4
Why does anyone want to take a cruise? You are their prisoner. You can't exercise any spontaneity in your travel, you are on their leash and have to troop back to the ship when it's their time to leave. And then you are stuck and they distract you with rich food and alcohol. I sit on the beach and hear your busses taking you back to the floating hotel. Thank you, however, for spending money on an island I love.
7
Let your dollar be your vote;
But never let them get your goat.
But never let them get your goat.
2
Well, nothing really new in there, even though the forms of exclusion may vary, exclusion based on wealth is an old staple of human society.
It might be worth noting that, in the past, each time income inequality rose too high and the rich and powerful got too disconnected from the masses, the end result was, predictably, a massive war (foreign or civil). It goes a little bit beyond "making people uneasy".
The contempt exhibited by many of the wealthy combined to the need to show off both their wealth and the privileges it gets them can only exacerbate the problem.
It might be worth noting that, in the past, each time income inequality rose too high and the rich and powerful got too disconnected from the masses, the end result was, predictably, a massive war (foreign or civil). It goes a little bit beyond "making people uneasy".
The contempt exhibited by many of the wealthy combined to the need to show off both their wealth and the privileges it gets them can only exacerbate the problem.
1
Marat, we're poor, and the poor stay poor.
Marat, don't make us wait any more.
We want our rights, and we don't care how.
We want a revolution.
NOW.
Marat, don't make us wait any more.
We want our rights, and we don't care how.
We want a revolution.
NOW.
3
Businesses are actively promoting a society of the privileged versus the peons. It is time to start tearing it down. What we need is a non-violent but total political revolution against everything Republican.
5
I didn't see the monies invested to create jobs to raise the boats of the 99 percent. Oh, wait, those are menial jobs in the luxury services industries.
2
The word "masses" could not be more descriptive of the distinction between posh and steerage passengers. How immensely contaminating it would feel if the Haven travelers realize the laws of physics displace them and the masses equally.
"The peasants are revolting."
"Yes, they are."
"The peasants are revolting."
"Yes, they are."
4
and yet, we see the death of 1st class on at least a few major airlines.
i'm not sure i see the point of this article. separation has always existed. if the implicit message underneath the prose is that this is somehow bad and that the american system is somehow flawed, i suggest we look at the current (socialist) chinese and russian economies and do a compare/contrast. the panama papers indicate their so-called "1%" problem lies on much steeper gradients.
one thing that is on point is the interviewee's comment on transparency - let everyone see it and it should all be just fine.
i'm not sure i see the point of this article. separation has always existed. if the implicit message underneath the prose is that this is somehow bad and that the american system is somehow flawed, i suggest we look at the current (socialist) chinese and russian economies and do a compare/contrast. the panama papers indicate their so-called "1%" problem lies on much steeper gradients.
one thing that is on point is the interviewee's comment on transparency - let everyone see it and it should all be just fine.
2
When we walk into our favourite restaurant that will not take a reservation, we appreciate being welcomed by the staff & the ownership. But we refuse to 'cut' the line and be seated ahead, which is frequently offered. We can wait. We all come from & end up in the same place. How we treat, and how we can improve the lives, of our fellow earth inhabitants is our true worth. We are social creatures that enjoy acknowledgement. But our true value is found within.
3
The funny thing about the article is that the truly wealthy would never sail on an NCL ship. Assuming they didn't charter a boat, they would opt for a smaller ship on a luxury line. I am sure this appeals to the nouveau riche, but it doesn't bother me. I'd rather they cordon those people off by themselves so I can meet some really interesting people, rather than the self important moneyed class that this segregation appeals to.
7
Thanks! Now I am certain I will never subject myself to the degrading treatment of a cruise.
7
Forget boats Citizens United: allowing the uber- rich to buy politcians. America is already an oligarchy.
6
I just hope this does not apply to safety and the evacuation of a ship. Do you get to cut the line there too?
14
Obviously, a special concierge emergency -- I mean escort -- service comes directly to your room -- er, suite -- and guides you and your family through the secret hallways to a special escape boat -- er, yacht -- complete with air conditioning and buffet service.
And don't worry about your luggage -- the special escort service porters will pack all your belongings and carefully place them in a waterproof container to take along.
And don't worry about your luggage -- the special escort service porters will pack all your belongings and carefully place them in a waterproof container to take along.
9
"the special escort service porters will pack all your belongings and carefully place them in a waterproof container to take along."
And then wave cheerfully as they go down with the ship.
And then wave cheerfully as they go down with the ship.
I am always reminded of a scene in an old Titanic movie where the first class passengers are properly having a composed time in luxury, while the lower class people are having a party and lots of fun.
For those of us who do not take first class, read Don Blanding's poetry about being a vagabond and going places, ie: "...for I am blessed with the gift of sight, the coin of the realm of dreams".
Choose wisely and have fun. You cannot buy a good spirit.
For those of us who do not take first class, read Don Blanding's poetry about being a vagabond and going places, ie: "...for I am blessed with the gift of sight, the coin of the realm of dreams".
Choose wisely and have fun. You cannot buy a good spirit.
12
Why blame companies alone who pamper wealthy customers? Even in commercial buildings and offices,one can find separate elevators for directors,and ordinary users,and in offices there are separate toilets for officers,directors,and other staff - same is with canteens. People in power enjoy privileges,be it elected representatives of the people,judges,and religious leaders among others. Don't we have seats reserved for ladies in public transport like buses and trains? Ladies can occupy general seats ,but men cannot occupy seats reserved for women. Is this not class discrimination? Have money,and you can have separate windows for first class tickets at railway station counters - remember railways are run by the government in a number of nations. The why blame companies alone who target rich customers. " Money,Money ,must be funny in a rich man's world. Money,money must be sunny in a rich man's world".
1
"Don't we have seats reserved for ladies in public transport like buses and trains?"
Not in Western countries, my friend.
Not in Western countries, my friend.
What irks me is seeing the TSA give priority to first class passengers in many settings. I understand people have paid more and the airlines will give them perks. I don't understand why the government-run TSA would give them special service/shorter lines. I understand the known traveler system and participate in that, but the people who buy first class tickets get shorter lines than that.
Reading the comments, the thing that SHOULD irk me is better public school opportunities for the rich because we cluster in enclaves. Again I understand that when the rich pay for private schools for our children we get what we pay for.
Reading the comments, the thing that SHOULD irk me is better public school opportunities for the rich because we cluster in enclaves. Again I understand that when the rich pay for private schools for our children we get what we pay for.
6
Thanks for the feedback - I'm waiting on an insane TSA line this minute at LAGuardia - having refused to pay $30 to skip it - and I couldn't have put it better myself in the story.
"Money-based caste system"!
With that, the author displays a complete ignorance of caste--a system wherein nothing at all that you can do will ever gain you entry to a better life, and of the whole point of a free economy, wherein people are able to use their abilities to make money and then spend it on things like "first class" treatment.
If you don't believe social mobility based on intelligence and effort is possible in the USA then have a go at that, but not at what successful people do with the money they've earned.
Sheesh. Why was this printed?
With that, the author displays a complete ignorance of caste--a system wherein nothing at all that you can do will ever gain you entry to a better life, and of the whole point of a free economy, wherein people are able to use their abilities to make money and then spend it on things like "first class" treatment.
If you don't believe social mobility based on intelligence and effort is possible in the USA then have a go at that, but not at what successful people do with the money they've earned.
Sheesh. Why was this printed?
14
Wow. One person understands this...
The rich will always have clean water to drink and swim in, safe food to eat, police protection, education, etc. etc. Taxes are 1) Redistribution of wealth. 2) A way for us all to pool our money together and share the costs to have the services we cannot afford independently, such as our own fire truck.
3
Paying more for exclusivity is an old travel model. The SS France had a private interior pool and smaller, quieter dining room for first class passengers. The friend I made while on a tranatlantic voyage with my grandparents, whose parents afforded this luxury level, preferred our larger, naturally lighted noisy more "proletarian" facilities. They were lively places where you could meet people from around the world and engage more.
When my parents could finally afford air travel for our family in the late '60s, it didn't matter where we sat as interactions were nonexistant. If some wish to travel without engaging fellow passengers for a princely sum, that is their privilege. For many of us, the social aspect of travel is as important as the destination. I would rather spend time with like-minded others while seeing the world.
When my parents could finally afford air travel for our family in the late '60s, it didn't matter where we sat as interactions were nonexistant. If some wish to travel without engaging fellow passengers for a princely sum, that is their privilege. For many of us, the social aspect of travel is as important as the destination. I would rather spend time with like-minded others while seeing the world.
5
Nobody commented on the aspect that the technology to build cruise liners with capacity for several THOUSANDS of customers has actually led to the "democratisation" of cruises (the opposite of what the article complains about). The cruiseliner business was revolutionised.
Today cruise line companies are in fact making most of their money by offering cruises available to "ordinary people" who in previous generations could never have afforded a cruise, once considered a holiday reserved for the rich.
(Similar story with air travel)
Today cruise line companies are in fact making most of their money by offering cruises available to "ordinary people" who in previous generations could never have afforded a cruise, once considered a holiday reserved for the rich.
(Similar story with air travel)
10
I stopped sailing with NCL for the simple reason if you wanted an espresso after dinner in the main dining room they charged you for it, the excuse being they had to go to "the coffee bar" to get it. That, and when we're on a Carnival cruise and the guy in front of us at checkout said "I can't believe I spent $1500 on beer!" (in his favor, it WAS Super Bowl week). I find it absurd that peole looking for exclusivity would even consider sailing on a vessel as monstrous as in the picture. But then, it's their money.
3
I've skied at Vail and Steamboat and both were really nice although not cheap. The lines were never long and the slopes never crowded. Now they are advertising privacy in skiing and members only resorts. Why? Is it because they don't want members of rich families meeting and potentially marrying someone less rich? Or for advanced boasting?
3
What? What point are you trying to make?
1
Before long we get separate legislation for the rich, not only separate treatment under the same legislation. Rich can really say "Yes, we can".
3
'“If I’m in the back of the plane, I want to hiss at the people in first class,” said Mr. Nalebuff, who has advised many Fortune 100 companies. “If I’m up front, I cringe as people walk by.”'
Boy not me - I think that the people who pay several times what I do are silly folks who equate dollars spent and "pampering" with self-worth. The plane gets to the gate at the same time for everyone.
The wish for exclusivity, for the opportunity to say 'we are better, not like the rest of them, deserve more' etc., is a human weakness. It shows up around money, but also in some segments of religious society - especially those who claim "heaven" as the exclusive club of people like them.
In terms of money, it is not only a disease of the wealthy, for many middle class and affluent folks spend more than they should trying to have a toe in that club. I bet there are lots of families spending that $1000 for their kids to swim with the dolphins when both their retirement funds and the kids college funds are grossly underfunded.
Those are the strivers, the ones these businesses hope to entice (motivate?) by letting them see a bit of what the "other half" gets. Beyond them, for some it is plainly never attainable. The rest of us think this exclusivity is simply the feeding of the insecure and the snobs who need someone else to tell them that they ARE someone.
Boy not me - I think that the people who pay several times what I do are silly folks who equate dollars spent and "pampering" with self-worth. The plane gets to the gate at the same time for everyone.
The wish for exclusivity, for the opportunity to say 'we are better, not like the rest of them, deserve more' etc., is a human weakness. It shows up around money, but also in some segments of religious society - especially those who claim "heaven" as the exclusive club of people like them.
In terms of money, it is not only a disease of the wealthy, for many middle class and affluent folks spend more than they should trying to have a toe in that club. I bet there are lots of families spending that $1000 for their kids to swim with the dolphins when both their retirement funds and the kids college funds are grossly underfunded.
Those are the strivers, the ones these businesses hope to entice (motivate?) by letting them see a bit of what the "other half" gets. Beyond them, for some it is plainly never attainable. The rest of us think this exclusivity is simply the feeding of the insecure and the snobs who need someone else to tell them that they ARE someone.
17
You have a huge envious chip on your shoulder!
2
As today's obscenely rich oligarch's get more socially and morally corrupt - and progressively isolate themselves from the real world - the more likely they (and the rest of us by default) will be held accountable. Perhaps Trump's fascist message is a canary in the coal mine.
9
Actually it is not a new thing. And there is no need for a huge disparity in wealth. This might be new thing for native-English locations. However, in feudal language social systems, this is more or less the norm.
When feudal language speakers started entering English nations in a massive manner from the 90s onward, this social phenomenon was more or less predicted.
In fact, in feudal languages, there are different YOU, HE, HIS, HIM, SHE, HER, HERS etc. for each level of comparative affluence. As per this word code, everything including rights to dignity, gets defined.
English nations are now getting to experience a weird and eerie social mood. If left unbridled, the word-code effect will pull native-English nations into social squalor.
When feudal language speakers started entering English nations in a massive manner from the 90s onward, this social phenomenon was more or less predicted.
In fact, in feudal languages, there are different YOU, HE, HIS, HIM, SHE, HER, HERS etc. for each level of comparative affluence. As per this word code, everything including rights to dignity, gets defined.
English nations are now getting to experience a weird and eerie social mood. If left unbridled, the word-code effect will pull native-English nations into social squalor.
1
What a sad, sad diminution of life's experiences these people have been condemned to by their wealth. For them, locked in the glitter of their tiny world, they are to be pitied.
8
Yeah sure. Pitty all you want while the wealthy go on 6 vacations a year, dining on the best life has to offer, experiencing the world like few can.
1
If the purpose of this article was to stoke further class envy the author failed. The New York Times is primarily read by those of us with the ability to read and understand words at more than a 6th grade level. we can also afford a subscription to the paper. I used to deliver groceries in Brooklyn when I was 10. One of my pleasures was to buy a Journal American with my tips. It was a far better paper than the Daily News which had and still has more pictures and few big words because even the small ones were usually misspelled. (Still are). "New York's picture newspaper" ( for the semi-literate)
We're not the type that is naive as to what money affords you. We're not the type to find the place of envy.
But the people on the lower classes, the Proles who demand laws for every perceived slight would enjoy this article because it verifies everything they believe. That they are being forcibly held back by a system that won't let them advance because those at the top of the chain don't want them in their rarefied society.
But they'll never read it. Too busy watching sports Sunday.
We're not the type that is naive as to what money affords you. We're not the type to find the place of envy.
But the people on the lower classes, the Proles who demand laws for every perceived slight would enjoy this article because it verifies everything they believe. That they are being forcibly held back by a system that won't let them advance because those at the top of the chain don't want them in their rarefied society.
But they'll never read it. Too busy watching sports Sunday.
22
We are a Third World country. This is true in virtually every aspect of our society now--government, tightly controlled by a tiny rent-seeking oligarchy that co-opts whichever party is in power; education, security, justice and healthcare, marked by ridiculously uneven access; not to mention, apparently. access to an untainted water supply.
In this context, an article that highlights what the wealthy can afford in contrast to the merely affluent is hardly noteworthy.
In this context, an article that highlights what the wealthy can afford in contrast to the merely affluent is hardly noteworthy.
12
Note to self - continue boycott of cruise line vacations.
18
Note to Fountain of Truth: Cruise lines still don't notice your boycott.
There is no mention in the article of the people who deliver the services on these ships, whether in the Haven or where the hoi polloi hang out (I agree that as some comments have already noted even the low status cruisers are relatively well-off to afford such vacations). I think we'd find that the majority of workers on these ships are from 'third world' countries, earning wages well below what prevails in the places from which the passengers travel. No doubt tips make a great difference but I wonder what the domestic and other low paid crew make of what they observe on these floating palaces.
12
I just came back from a week in the country (Burgundy because I live in France). A small country house with minimum amenities, no internet, no tv. Spent my days reading, walking, cooking, enjoying being with my ten year old son and husband. Luxury is unspoiled landscapes, silence, fresh products with no pesticides and time to be with our loved ones.
42
sez you. different strokes for different folks.
8
1. The NYT choosing this topic as a case in point to bemoan class inequalities is pretty weak. A cruise is not a basic human need. The lack of one or of a "Haven" does not connote a less pleasurable existence.
2. Perhaps we should focus of the message Americans have imbibed like free booze since the 1950s. Housewife? You need a new washer machine. Kids? You need new toys. Husband? How about a GM lifetime plan for your cars with Chevy then Buick then Cadillac. By the 1980s, we wanted to have goods and fun but less work. By the late 1990s we sucked up the shady mortgages knowing we didn't have the means to pay them then yelled foul when things went awry and the foreclosure notices came. I think we in part are angry because we believed the lie, gave into our sense of entitlement and desires.
3. If you like post-revolution chaos, indiscriminate bloodletting, marshal law, destruction of societal structures and paranoia then continue to allude to the French and Russian revolutions.
4. This country (gasp) should actually penalize and exert justice on those who have ill-gotten gain.
2. Perhaps we should focus of the message Americans have imbibed like free booze since the 1950s. Housewife? You need a new washer machine. Kids? You need new toys. Husband? How about a GM lifetime plan for your cars with Chevy then Buick then Cadillac. By the 1980s, we wanted to have goods and fun but less work. By the late 1990s we sucked up the shady mortgages knowing we didn't have the means to pay them then yelled foul when things went awry and the foreclosure notices came. I think we in part are angry because we believed the lie, gave into our sense of entitlement and desires.
3. If you like post-revolution chaos, indiscriminate bloodletting, marshal law, destruction of societal structures and paranoia then continue to allude to the French and Russian revolutions.
4. This country (gasp) should actually penalize and exert justice on those who have ill-gotten gain.
15
This is called marketing and price segmentation. The article quotes many so-called experts who find this distasteful, but the reality is that you get what you pay for and the consumer fully understands and expects this.
14
Really disappointing article casually suggesting Evil rich people do not want to be with average people, it is true but you have to say why, take me for example I travel six months of the year and work 12 a day so I can reach what is so called 1% and that my choice, now my daily life/problem it just not relate to the people with less income like if I say the first class in this airline was this and that some people will think I am snappy(just example) so I would like to stay with people within my education and financial level for the simple reason we relate to each other problem. Article like this is important but please stop pretending this is something new. Differnce in people classes exsisted for thousand of years. SHAME on you NYT. PS I have been reader for ten years so I am not new here
7
I work 12-14 hours a day and judging from how you write, I got a better education. My chosen field might not pay as much as yours, but that doesn't mean you're better than me.
22
You're missing the point, Sam. People do separate into groups that "relate to each other's problems," but what if they separate so far that the groups never connect, from birth to death? Each group sees the other not as fellow human beings, but as alien creatures whose lives matter less. They stop feeling empathy for each other and making common cause.
You speak of yourself candidly, without seeing that your "snappy" manner conveys a lack of basic respect for people who aren't "at your level." I'm sure it creates antipathy for "that %&^¥ rich guy." If you want to reach the 1%, awesome. But how about trying not to start the French Revolution on the way there? Business class may earn its cake, but cabin class is still eating stale crackers, no matter how hard they may have tried for the cake.
PS. I once saw someone lose a high six-figure job for being snotty to a secretary -- who happened to work for the seven-figure executive. Be careful about snapping at people not at your level...they may have allies above yours!
You speak of yourself candidly, without seeing that your "snappy" manner conveys a lack of basic respect for people who aren't "at your level." I'm sure it creates antipathy for "that %&^¥ rich guy." If you want to reach the 1%, awesome. But how about trying not to start the French Revolution on the way there? Business class may earn its cake, but cabin class is still eating stale crackers, no matter how hard they may have tried for the cake.
PS. I once saw someone lose a high six-figure job for being snotty to a secretary -- who happened to work for the seven-figure executive. Be careful about snapping at people not at your level...they may have allies above yours!
6
Agreed. With the kind of attitude some of the 1% display, I think they're right that I'm not at their level. By being decent to and caring about my fellow humans, I'm way above their level. And, thank God.
So, will flashing that golden key card ensure that 'Haven' passengers will get preferred seating on the lifeboats when the Escape starts taking on water?
10
Do yourself a favor and stay home, lines at Disney and Ski areas for the rich while you wait. What does all this tell you, you are not worth, it so stay away and enjoy the simple things in life.
7
This statement in the article is down-right creepy: "Royal Genies will research their guests’ preferences even before they come aboard and come up with surprises like in-room drinks with their favorite vodka or Scotch."
8
After having lived many decades in France, French men and women sometimes ask me questions about the U.S. concerning its society, economy, politics, race, values, just about anything imaginable. One constant that has evolved for the worse over the years in America….. If one scratches the surface, virtually every aspect of American life and culture is directly or indirectly related to money. Obviously one's work or profession, but also leisure activities, sport etc., including friendship and love.
15
This is a great article -- thank you for taking up the cause for something that has come to bother me more and more.
For some time, I've been telling anyone who I can get to listen to me about what I call the "Lord Grantham" tickets that are sold at at Cedar Point and some of the other amusement parks around the country.
These tickets allow those well off enough to pay double or triple the standard entrance price the right to walk right to the front of the roller coaster lines past all of the "commoners".
Now I understand that people and businesses have a right to sell, for instance, roomier first class tickets on air flights at a high price to those who wish to buy them.
But a "line cutting ticket" just sticks in my crawl as something outrageously unfair and unjust.
Every child is taught that cutting in line is wrong. It's simply one of those "do unto others as you would have them do unto you" common sense rules of conduct: Who would want to wait in a line for two hours for a roller coaster and then watch some privileged person come and walk ahead of them without waiting?
Yet now corporate America facilitates this by providing "line cutter tickets" available at extra cost?
I'm simply outraged that this is tolerated in this day and age and it speaks to the growing gap between rich and poor and what this does to our society.
For some time, I've been telling anyone who I can get to listen to me about what I call the "Lord Grantham" tickets that are sold at at Cedar Point and some of the other amusement parks around the country.
These tickets allow those well off enough to pay double or triple the standard entrance price the right to walk right to the front of the roller coaster lines past all of the "commoners".
Now I understand that people and businesses have a right to sell, for instance, roomier first class tickets on air flights at a high price to those who wish to buy them.
But a "line cutting ticket" just sticks in my crawl as something outrageously unfair and unjust.
Every child is taught that cutting in line is wrong. It's simply one of those "do unto others as you would have them do unto you" common sense rules of conduct: Who would want to wait in a line for two hours for a roller coaster and then watch some privileged person come and walk ahead of them without waiting?
Yet now corporate America facilitates this by providing "line cutter tickets" available at extra cost?
I'm simply outraged that this is tolerated in this day and age and it speaks to the growing gap between rich and poor and what this does to our society.
10
The odd thing about this article is that there are several cruise lines that cater to the "high end" market. If I was going to spend $30,000 on a week long cruise, I can't imagine why I would want to spend it on Norwegian Cruise lines just so I could be segregated from the other 4000 passengers. Perhaps they should spend some of that on a travel agent.
13
Even the Haven still forces me to be too close the unwashed masses. I'll stick to my yacht, thank you very much. I also enjoy the features available to me on the NY Times website when I pay extra for them. Most of the people commenting hear probably have no idea what I'm talking about, but I had to mention it because I do so enjoy the holiday gift of caviar the Times sends each year.
“Anyone who has to ask about the annual upkeep of a yacht can’t afford one.” - J. P. Morgan
“Anyone who has to ask about the annual upkeep of a yacht can’t afford one.” - J. P. Morgan
5
The average income in Alameda is $43,000. Dream on, "bp."
It's when the secluded filthy rich life on the tiny island of prosperity is inundated and devastated by the angry and roary waters of the vast ocean of poverty and deprivation surrounding it everyone is caught unawares.
12
Cruise ships pollute like hell. A cruise ship in one week is estimated to generate:
* 210,000 gallons of human sewage,
* 1 million gallons of gray water (water from sinks, baths, showers, laundry, and galleys),
* 25,000 gallons of oily bilge water,
* Up to 11,550 gallons of sewage sludge, and
* More than 130 gallons of hazardous wastes
Now times this pollution by the number of large cruise ships; about 230 on the ocean per year + tankers + container ships + freighters + fish-catching ships and whalers.
* 210,000 gallons of human sewage,
* 1 million gallons of gray water (water from sinks, baths, showers, laundry, and galleys),
* 25,000 gallons of oily bilge water,
* Up to 11,550 gallons of sewage sludge, and
* More than 130 gallons of hazardous wastes
Now times this pollution by the number of large cruise ships; about 230 on the ocean per year + tankers + container ships + freighters + fish-catching ships and whalers.
11
But ship passengers would be generating sewage and gray water on land, as well. What is important is how the ship handles the environmental issues, and I think you will find that the larger western cruise lines are quite responsible. The fuel usage is another story....
1
Wouldn't the people on that ship generate that much sewage and greywater no matter where they were? In fact, the low water toilets probably mean they create less sewage than they do at home ...
You don't know very much about marine sanitary systems and your post shows. That sewage you speak of is not just dumped over the side. You should read 33 CFR 159 and the IMO's MARPOL 73/78. Both deal with marine pollution.
1
For some, the glass is always half empty.
4
I don't mind people buying fancier services for more money.
I do mind our democratic process hijacked by concentrated interests, and them buying our public policies at the expense of the rest of us.
I do mind our democratic process hijacked by concentrated interests, and them buying our public policies at the expense of the rest of us.
15
Hillary stays in the Presidential Suite, which costs $5,000 per night, which doesn't include meals or entertainment. It explains why she is out of touch with the people and neglected to leave a tip at Chipotle.
9
But then Hillary is quite poor compared to Donald and I don't think he's in touch with the masses either. Unless, of course, they are uneducated.
6
Is that your idea of a cogent reason why I should vote for Bernie next week? No wonder he's losing.
3
The bulk and height of that clunker makes it look unsafe in any class. Check the February news reports on Norwegian Cruise Lines' "Anthem of the Seas."
5
all part of the race to the bottom
6
Never saw the point of spending my vacation time stuck in a boat. Who'd want to give money to these people or even worse be stuck in the same boat as twits paying 30K for still being spam in the can
8
Spending any time on a boat doesn't interest me, an odd admission from a veteran of the US Navy. I was fortunate to be selected for the SEABEES.
The small ship's also have Haven, it's not new. Nice if you can afford it. I don't see how this is different than choosing to spend money on a luxury suite and getting the privelige that goes along with the room or choosing an inside cabin to keep the budget low?
3
Our middle class has been dead-man-walking for decades now, once our businesses found out they could find quality labor for much less cost. This article is merely evidence of our middle class decline.
6
It's hilarious to see the New York Time agonizing yet again over differences between rich and poor. Who cares if some wealthy person has a nicer state room on a ship and he's willing to pay for it? That nicer state room helps offset the cost of a poorer family's room in steerage. Don't worry about it! Life goes on. Bible-beaters lay awake at night worrying that someone, somewhere is having fun. Liberals lay awake worrying someone, somwhere is making a nickel.
9
I doubt that soaking the rich subsidizes the folks in steerage.
1
I don't have any problem with people working hard and becoming rich. I do have a problem with the degree of income inequality and the control the rich have over our politicians, who are the rules-makers in the game of the U.S. economy. Like every game, capitalism needs rules and fair referees to ensure that everyone starts out with an equal opportunity to win and equal justice. We no longer have that in the U.S.
Also, I don't envy the very rich. I almost pity them. If they lock themselves behind gates and velvet ropes, they can't experience the rich diversity and fun of life. They're stuck interacting with other money-obsessed, spoiled rich people. Their kids all have psychological problems due to being spoiled and priviliged. They have to worry about kidnappings. It just seems like kind of a lonely, restrictive, boring, and neurotic life. As long as I can be secure and middle class, I prefer that to their lives.
Also, I don't envy the very rich. I almost pity them. If they lock themselves behind gates and velvet ropes, they can't experience the rich diversity and fun of life. They're stuck interacting with other money-obsessed, spoiled rich people. Their kids all have psychological problems due to being spoiled and priviliged. They have to worry about kidnappings. It just seems like kind of a lonely, restrictive, boring, and neurotic life. As long as I can be secure and middle class, I prefer that to their lives.
5
I'm not sure you realize that you are arbitrarily insulting wealthy people to make yourself feel better about your position. I'm pretty sure there are plenty of rich, diverse experiences for the wealthy. "Money obsessed, spoiled". Their kids all have psychological problems? Really? Congratulations on coming up with these offensive generalizations, so you can sleep better at night. I assure you that there are many more poor people living lonely, restrictive, boring and neurotic lives, as you put it, than wealthy ones. And his goes back to what I mentioned before, people come in here just blatantly insulting wealthy people as if being wealthy means you are the embodiment of evil. Yet a wealthy person says something and they are snappy, lacking empathy, snobby, snooty, etc... Sad.
1
I don't insult all wealthy people. I'm against the ones who try to make it harder for everyone else to live a decent life.
1
The only places that didn't have differentiated service based on money were in the USSR. In the USSR you needed to be part of the nomenklatura to get anything good.
Money, for all its problems, is accessible to the masses.
Money, for all its problems, is accessible to the masses.
2
"Never smarten up a chump"-- W.C. Fields
3
This article highlights illustrates why the rich often seem like such empty and ugly people.
Folks that segregate themselves from the general population, in order to avoid having to interact with the non-wealthy don't seem more pathetic than anything else.
Folks that segregate themselves from the general population, in order to avoid having to interact with the non-wealthy don't seem more pathetic than anything else.
3
There is nothing wrong with special services for the Rich. Money buys extra - so what! It's the fact that businesses increasingly skew their efforts towards the Rich alone, at the expense of acceptable services for the common many, that most of us dislike. Once you have done well by the many, go ahead and knock yourself doing rarified fancy stuff for the Rich. However, skimping on services for the many only to take the lion's share of money, space, effort, resources, etc. - and put it into the catering and primping of the few... that's a very different thing indeed!
Sadly, very often, the many end up paying for the few, while getting lower than we paid for and deserve. The world belongs to all. Pushing aside almost everyone so the Rich can have not just the best, but the most too, seems to be where we are heading.
I am good with a fairly made and presented decent meal at a clean table and OK china. I am not OK being shoved off into a corner, with a stale crust of bread, on a paper plate, and no service. Why can't businesses - and society - meet the needs of both sides equally well? When the Rich can only achieve maximum enjoyment by ensuring they eat while knowing that others starved... then it's past time for a major reset.
Sadly, very often, the many end up paying for the few, while getting lower than we paid for and deserve. The world belongs to all. Pushing aside almost everyone so the Rich can have not just the best, but the most too, seems to be where we are heading.
I am good with a fairly made and presented decent meal at a clean table and OK china. I am not OK being shoved off into a corner, with a stale crust of bread, on a paper plate, and no service. Why can't businesses - and society - meet the needs of both sides equally well? When the Rich can only achieve maximum enjoyment by ensuring they eat while knowing that others starved... then it's past time for a major reset.
10
This reminds me that if i ever take another cruise, to stick with my unwashed demographic when the whole ship does a Costa (sic) Concordia and help my own first. Does any of this remind other readers of when the U. of Pittsburgh hospital was providing donated organs to rich saudis over actual americans? Can't wait for pitchfork time!
6
When I was a teenager, for four years I attended boarding school in England and for the summer vacation (and usually one other vacation as well) my brother and I traveled on the Queen Mary or QE1 to the US where my father was posted. My father's employer, the British Government, would only spring for one of those trips and that in what the Cunard Line called "Cabin Class."
My brother and I would match our wits with the stewards and other crew in a blissful game of sneaking into First Class. It was a great sport and helped pass the five days.
Now I am older, I am grateful to the first class passengers. Not only did they provide a lot of sport, but now I think about it, they helped to subsidize the trips of the rest of us.
Last time I looked, a first class flight from Minneapolis to Hong Kong cost $5000 but a coach fare cost little over $1000.
Class war is silly. Without the rich, the rest of us would be poorer.
My brother and I would match our wits with the stewards and other crew in a blissful game of sneaking into First Class. It was a great sport and helped pass the five days.
Now I am older, I am grateful to the first class passengers. Not only did they provide a lot of sport, but now I think about it, they helped to subsidize the trips of the rest of us.
Last time I looked, a first class flight from Minneapolis to Hong Kong cost $5000 but a coach fare cost little over $1000.
Class war is silly. Without the rich, the rest of us would be poorer.
10
"If you're paying to go on a cruise you are poor in taste, you can spend 100 large and still, poor poor you!"
there were quite a few posts in this vein
poor are those who disparage the taste and interests of others. put those you don't like on ignore and avoid them as much as possible
there were quite a few posts in this vein
poor are those who disparage the taste and interests of others. put those you don't like on ignore and avoid them as much as possible
2
Several readers have asked, "What's the point of travel if you never your bubble?"
There's a reason some ppl don't want to leave their bubbles: As the rich-poor gap becomes ever more pronounced, immediate surroundings for most of us are a mess. More people than ever seem to be hostile, angry, fearful, hopelessly uneducated or at best, just full of blank stares.
Who can blame others for not wanting to navigate this everyday toxicity created mostly by America's broken systems, particularly while on vacation?
If you're somehow lucky enough or hard-working enough to have become part of that tiny middle class group that can sometimes stretch for the upper reaches, the temptation to do so is tantalizing. After 60-70-hour work weeks, highway gridlock, absurd homework marathons with the kids, who wouldn't want a fantasy week gated off from the world for 6 precious vacation days?
Why put up with more jostling on the buffet line if a few extra thousand dollars buys some momentary peace, even if it's only a Band-Aid?
The American Dream is gone. The numbers don't add up for prob 90% of Americans. A Cancer diagnosis shouldn't mean losing your house. A college education shouldn't mean so much debt that you never buy one. Parking one's car shouldn't cost $44 a day.
The few citizens remaining - whether ultra-rich, or almost-rich - who are somehow surviving, can't be blamed for wanting to gate themselves in.
The mystery is why anyone would want do so on cruise ship.
There's a reason some ppl don't want to leave their bubbles: As the rich-poor gap becomes ever more pronounced, immediate surroundings for most of us are a mess. More people than ever seem to be hostile, angry, fearful, hopelessly uneducated or at best, just full of blank stares.
Who can blame others for not wanting to navigate this everyday toxicity created mostly by America's broken systems, particularly while on vacation?
If you're somehow lucky enough or hard-working enough to have become part of that tiny middle class group that can sometimes stretch for the upper reaches, the temptation to do so is tantalizing. After 60-70-hour work weeks, highway gridlock, absurd homework marathons with the kids, who wouldn't want a fantasy week gated off from the world for 6 precious vacation days?
Why put up with more jostling on the buffet line if a few extra thousand dollars buys some momentary peace, even if it's only a Band-Aid?
The American Dream is gone. The numbers don't add up for prob 90% of Americans. A Cancer diagnosis shouldn't mean losing your house. A college education shouldn't mean so much debt that you never buy one. Parking one's car shouldn't cost $44 a day.
The few citizens remaining - whether ultra-rich, or almost-rich - who are somehow surviving, can't be blamed for wanting to gate themselves in.
The mystery is why anyone would want do so on cruise ship.
11
When you're worrying every night at bedtime about who's stealing your stuff you deserve a little TLC. Paranoia and grand lux go well together
The New York Times should take a close look at itself as part of "The Velvet Rope Economy". While they don'thave select service for the elite, they profit off the advertisers that sell to the elite 1%. Just look at the advertisers for luxury watches, jewelry, fashion and real estate that fills the newspaper, Sunday magazine and especially the fashion magazine.
10
This article convinced me that a cruise is very unappealing . Whether rich or middle class , a cruise does not sound like something I aspire to. Does paying $30,000 for a cruise make for a better experience than those who paid $4,000? Perhaps , but this article makes me mighty uncomfortable with business practices that pit us against each other and want us to aspire to higher spending as means of feeling better about ourselves. So many of us forget that an expensive experience seems greedy when so many even in our country would never be able to take even one "low price" cruise. Food, health care and basic living expenses are all most of us can ever hope to afford and so many find these necessities lacking
2
It's in our nature as humans, just as there is a hierarchy among all living things, to be disdainful of those "beneath" us. As the species with the most capacity for insight, we expect ourselves to be more evolved. The truth is we must work at it consistently to keep the examples in this article from happening.
While you could argue that if you pay 30K you should get more personalized service, that's beside the point. The physical division between the super rich and all others is the issue; out of sight, out of mind, or said another way, how can you be expected to have empathy for those you know nothing about?
While you could argue that if you pay 30K you should get more personalized service, that's beside the point. The physical division between the super rich and all others is the issue; out of sight, out of mind, or said another way, how can you be expected to have empathy for those you know nothing about?
3
You know what? Who cares?
"They are looking for constant validation that they are a higher-value customer,"
I know my own value, and it isn't measured by private retreats on cruise ships or my own, less crowded elevator bank.
Nor do I drool when I am so fortunate as to walk by the frosted windows of an exclusive restaurant.
Is life on the other side of those windows nice? I'm sure it is. But it's nice on this side too.
And I'd hazard, perhaps even a little bit better. We poor slaves generally have friends when we're down on our luck
One gets the impression the 1% are rather lonely up there in the stratosphere.
"They are looking for constant validation that they are a higher-value customer,"
I know my own value, and it isn't measured by private retreats on cruise ships or my own, less crowded elevator bank.
Nor do I drool when I am so fortunate as to walk by the frosted windows of an exclusive restaurant.
Is life on the other side of those windows nice? I'm sure it is. But it's nice on this side too.
And I'd hazard, perhaps even a little bit better. We poor slaves generally have friends when we're down on our luck
One gets the impression the 1% are rather lonely up there in the stratosphere.
6
I have thoroughly enjoyed many of these comments, especially those that point out the absurdity of these cruise vacations in the first place. I don't know if I could ever go back to a Times sans comments. It's truly the icing on the cake to experience so much wit and intelligence from fellow readers so often. Maybe there is hope for this country.
20
If you're finding a lot of wit and intelligence in this comments section, you are impressively optimistic.
1
Why would anyone with means want to be on a ship with 4200 passengers? Ick. Anyone with means who would want to be observed as an animal in a zoo, well, tacky, insecure and obnoxious, to say the least.
4
Who thought it was a good idea to put your white sub-headline overtop a white ship?
7
"Walt Disney World began offering after-hours access to visitors who want to avoid the crowds. In other words, you basically get the Magic Kingdom to yourself." Of all the excesses mentioned in this article, this probably disturbed me the most. After all, when Walt Disney opened Disneyland he welcomed "all who were young or young in heart" not all who were the richest.
15
I've never been on a cruise because they all seem so crowded, offer activities I am not interested in (I'm too old for "pass the pineapple"), and provide no space other than one's cabin to decompress from the crowds and constant activity. If I were interested in cruising, I'd give Haven a try.
6
Just be happy what you have.
8
Awesome. A great way to avoid the riff-raff and the unwashed masses . . . now, if I only had the millions to gain such access . . . ps
1
Why we don't take cruises for vacation: We took our kids backpacking in Canyonlands National Parker in March. We hiked in heat and slept in snow with coyotes's yelps echoing in the canyon. The kids figured out how to travel with map and compass. The lerned about the desert flora and fauna and found ancient Pueblo ruins. And it was so hard to hike with huge packs laden. So, tough that when done, my youngest son said, "That was the toughest trip we ever did. It was also the best."
And on a cruise ship, each of us doing his or her own thing? Connection? No. Memories? Not likely.
We've opted for entertainment in North America, and it's killing our souls and making us fat.
And on a cruise ship, each of us doing his or her own thing? Connection? No. Memories? Not likely.
We've opted for entertainment in North America, and it's killing our souls and making us fat.
10
this comment, like so many, has nothing to do with the point of the story, which is not how great cruises are but how companies can sell a more expensive product to the wealthy alongside their regular product for the hoi polloi. who cares if you don't think cruises are worthwhile?
5
And the sun does not shine at night. What else does privilege mean except unequal access to anything?
6
While there will always be preferential treatment for the rich in every society, and no matter the political/economic system, its scary to wonder if capitalism and big corporations have become so sophisticated at catering to them that they literally will no longer need the rest of us as consumers of their products.
If it comes to this we will likely become a society as unequal, unstable and unsafe as anywhere in the world. But I don't think all of their money and privilege will make the elite that much more safe and secure than the rest of us in that world.
My German mother-in-law who just retired from nursing last year can afford to take vacations in Greece, Turkey and Portugal more than once a year, and takes her partner with her who only worked part time for the last decade or so before he retired. Somehow the German tourist industry still has to cater to people of ordinary means--the kind of people in this country who would flock to airlines that fly to Florida or the Caribbean if the industry actually had some competition and prices were within their reach--like they were back in the 1990s.
But then all we hear these days from the airlines is how profitable and stable they all are--"all" meaning the 5 that still remain in operation.
If it comes to this we will likely become a society as unequal, unstable and unsafe as anywhere in the world. But I don't think all of their money and privilege will make the elite that much more safe and secure than the rest of us in that world.
My German mother-in-law who just retired from nursing last year can afford to take vacations in Greece, Turkey and Portugal more than once a year, and takes her partner with her who only worked part time for the last decade or so before he retired. Somehow the German tourist industry still has to cater to people of ordinary means--the kind of people in this country who would flock to airlines that fly to Florida or the Caribbean if the industry actually had some competition and prices were within their reach--like they were back in the 1990s.
But then all we hear these days from the airlines is how profitable and stable they all are--"all" meaning the 5 that still remain in operation.
8
I think anyone who's been paying attention know that the wealth gap has grown. I also think it's become evident that the gap has fueled the moral breakdown we see in society. Everyone, including young kids, are inundated with messages that the only thing worth aspiring to are BMWs, courtside seats at sporting events, and Birkin bags. Everyone wants to feel special, but now the message seems to be that the only way to feel special is by owning things and flaunting it, just so that everyone else can feel bad. I don't expect businesses to do anything to alleviate this. But I do hope parents will teach their kids to aspire for something greater.
22
I feel sorry for those who waste money on unnecessary objects that pander to their egos. Such spending is like lighting cigars with burning $100 bills.
10
I feel sorry for people who feel the need to moralize about how other people spend their money.
8
The world the article describes is one of crass unenlightened consumerism for some very nouveau riche proles, but which anyone with any amount of class and upbringing wouldn't be caught dead.
13
you are defining the attributes of the hoi polloi, poor taste, gaudiness etc. it is their lives. it is just in America, being a rich country the hoi polloi can afford cruises. sadly, for various reasons, mainly government intervention e.g. saving the big banks from failure etc. is the reason the middle class is dissipating.
2
How many of these ever-so-special people that can't be bothered to wait in line like the rest of us acquired their status by refusing to pay their employees a decent wage? How many of them became wealthy in healthcare, by charging exorbitant fees for lifesaving drugs or denying services in managed care organizations? How many hide their wealth in off-shore accounts and congratulate themselves for being too smart to pay taxes while poor chumps like me, standing on the wrong side of the velvet rope, do their patriotic duty, work two or three jobs and pay a third to the government? As the popularity of protest candidates like Trump and Sanders has demonstrated, the 99% of us with such a paltry share of the nation's wealthy is feeling a little irritable these days. If I were one of the folks in the Haven, I'd start worrying that the next exciting new attraction might a visit from Madame Guillotine. You're so special, you can go to the head of the line!
18
Havr you read Grand Ambition http://www.amazon.com/Grand-Ambition-Extraordinary-People-Millionaire/dp...
This is the "woe is me" mentality that will always keep you in the 99%. Keep at it.
Nope. Being part of the 99% is not a factor of my attitudes, education, ability, work ethic or ability; it is a factor of policies enacted by the 1% and the lobbyists they have purchased, designed to maintain and strengthen their position in the hierarchy. Thanks for weighing in with ideas that have trickled down to you from the Koch brothers.
I've never understood the appeal of big cruise ships. You sit around a pool drinking, or you go to restaurants and shows on the ship. Every so often the ship stops in a tourist-trap port so you can go ashore for a few hours and buy souvenirs. These ships are so big and stabilized that you feel like you're on land, so what's the point of being on a ship?
Given that I don't "get" why someone would even spend $4,000 on an experience like that, I REALLY don't understand why these alleged financial sharpies would spend $10,000 or $20,000 on it!
Given that I don't "get" why someone would even spend $4,000 on an experience like that, I REALLY don't understand why these alleged financial sharpies would spend $10,000 or $20,000 on it!
21
I don't get it myself, but I have family members who think it is the bomb. My inlaws adored cruises and went for many years until health problems stopped them.
While it is not my cup of tea -- I hate shows, I don't drink alcohol, I loathe tourist trap shopping -- to each their own. My inlaws raved mostly about the FOOD: 24/7 buffets and fancy restaurants. Their vacation photos were often of them waiting in buffet lines (seriously) or of ice sculptures at buffets. What can I say? Clearly a lot of people like this kind of vacation.
Yeah, it is basically a floating hotel -- maybe more of a floating Las Vegas casino. Many have gambling. You don't have to worry about driving around, getting lost or dealing with weather, and you get to see a lot of pretty sunsets and stuff (if you have an outside cabin).
If I WANTED a vacation on a ship, I'd want to feel the wind in my hair and the salt-spray in my face. But that's me. This is a kind of safe, sanitized vacation for people who DO NOT want that, and who like shows, and all-you-can-eat buffets at midnight. To them I say: Bon Appetit!
While it is not my cup of tea -- I hate shows, I don't drink alcohol, I loathe tourist trap shopping -- to each their own. My inlaws raved mostly about the FOOD: 24/7 buffets and fancy restaurants. Their vacation photos were often of them waiting in buffet lines (seriously) or of ice sculptures at buffets. What can I say? Clearly a lot of people like this kind of vacation.
Yeah, it is basically a floating hotel -- maybe more of a floating Las Vegas casino. Many have gambling. You don't have to worry about driving around, getting lost or dealing with weather, and you get to see a lot of pretty sunsets and stuff (if you have an outside cabin).
If I WANTED a vacation on a ship, I'd want to feel the wind in my hair and the salt-spray in my face. But that's me. This is a kind of safe, sanitized vacation for people who DO NOT want that, and who like shows, and all-you-can-eat buffets at midnight. To them I say: Bon Appetit!
11
My parents are cruise regulars. Your description is spot on. They love the endless food and if you cruise often with the same company, they give you upgrades. They don't gamble but they do buy a lot of crap from the onboard cruise auctions.
2
Cruise ships, in my opinion, are actually an efficient means to travel to several places at once without having to worry as much about transport or hotels. They are especially good if you have limited time. And depending on the line and what activities you participate in, you can learn quite a lot about the places you will be seeing. For example, on our Hawaii cruise, they had ukelele lessons, hula dancing lessons, lectures on Hawaiian nature and geography, and an extremely well-stocked library. For me, with a busy life with little time for leisure reading, the library was cool. And we also had wonderful food; not having to cook for 2 weeks was a luxury. Our family doesn't shop, drink, or gamble although all those activities were available. My concerns with cruises are primarily around environmental pollution and how they treat their staff, not the actual cruises themselves.
1
It would be interesting to know the profile of those who pay $30,000 a week for Haven accommodations. My guess is that they are far down the economic and social scale from those live on 5th Avenue or stay at the Peninsula and eat at Per Se. Sounds more like the venue for an upper middle class honeymoon or similar intimacy.
8
Or, equally likely, those who have set aside money -- saved! -- regularly for several years in order to pay for a special holiday. Well, really: how -dare- they?
2
Actually, $30,000 a week is quite pricy and I would surmise this is the same demographic who stays at the Peninsula and eats at Per Se. They might even frequent fancier places than the Peninsula and Per Se.
(it also is more than just about money. there are people with money who don't cruise, stay at the Peninsula, or eat at Per Se because these are not the things they value)
(it also is more than just about money. there are people with money who don't cruise, stay at the Peninsula, or eat at Per Se because these are not the things they value)
1
This is all going to finish very badly. But at least today's heirs to Louis XVI and Marie-Antoinette will have priority boarding on their way to the scaffold.
18
I don't want to take a $3000 vacation and feel like a second class guest. Nor do I want other guests to watch me cut the line. I prefer the all one class cruise ship.
12
A million dollars in financial assets? Really?
That's a 2 bedroom condo in San Francisco. Give me a break. It's called inflation.
That's a 2 bedroom condo in San Francisco. Give me a break. It's called inflation.
10
Most people can't come up with $400 in an emergency. $1 M in assets is a pretty good line in a log-normal distribution.
6
Pathetically sad, but true.
That's what unfettered inflation gets you.
That's what unfettered inflation gets you.
4
The million dollars in financial assets is in addition to the house and cars. It's easier to get there if your house doesn't cost a million dollars and you don't have a mortgage and property taxed to pay for the house. People in flyover country are stunned with how little you get for a million in San Francisco.
1
You've got to be kidding. Being on a meat market ship like this is the very last thing anyone elite would want to do.
13
I wouldn't be caught dead on a cruise ship. It's one thing to be wealthy; it's another thing to know how to spend your money well.
17
Did they call it Haven because the rich use the cruise ship to travel between their different tax havens?
12
"On Royal Caribbean’s new ship Anthem, diners must first walk past the frosted glass windows of Coastal Kitchen, reserved for suite occupants, ..."
Please, gag me with a spoon. I don;t know who is more cringeworthy - the guy behind the frosted window or the guy forced to walk by it.
Please, gag me with a spoon. I don;t know who is more cringeworthy - the guy behind the frosted window or the guy forced to walk by it.
11
What's the point of the article? The author wants those living well to feel guilty? I never worry about what someone else has. I never worry that others might have more than me. I never feel it's unfair that I may not be as well off as some others.
If it's a big deal to me, I live in America and always have the opportunity to go out and better myself through my own efforts. The world doesn't owe me a living and neither does anyone else. I'm responsible for myself.
The world is run by those who show up, not those who demand that others play Robin Hood on their behalf. They will always find themselves lacking.
If it's a big deal to me, I live in America and always have the opportunity to go out and better myself through my own efforts. The world doesn't owe me a living and neither does anyone else. I'm responsible for myself.
The world is run by those who show up, not those who demand that others play Robin Hood on their behalf. They will always find themselves lacking.
7
Sounds like descriptions of the White Star Line's Olympic class ships. The Titanic was the best known of the three. The comparison to the Gilded
Age is apt.
Age is apt.
2
But nothing whatsoever like....NYC real estate and rentals.
<< rolls eyes >>
<< rolls eyes >>
6
Wait. People actually want to take a cruise? We all know how this ends - polluted oceans and dysentery.
13
Sure would make me choose not to go on a cruise ! The Cruise companies, following airline lead are degrading the experience for the chaff; so why pay any money whatsoever to them. The cruises still are expensive , but the companies could give a hoot about those not super ultra wealthy, and now you get stranded ships, multiple types of viral illnesses, food borne diseases, etc., for your money; unless you're worth $100 million or more.
6
Pricing people out of certain aspects has been very beneficial for companies. An event is too expensive? They made it that way to keep certain people out. If you want to read more on the subject, read about Chicago's New Years Eve party that was originally open to the public. Bad idea. The "thugs" would come, so they charged for the event to keep the numbers down. It is a part of life.
4
I await with bated breath the NYT expose (somehow the comments section won't accept proper accents on that noun ..) on the horrors of, say, the Carlyle Hotel, or the Marriott Marquis, and the prices they charge.
Presumably the paper's writers and its editorial staff will do their best to generate yet more envy of those who choose to spend their money in a manner they do not not explicitly condone.
Perhaps it would have been helpful to examine other cruise lines as well, where -- shocking, I know -- not all cabins command the same price, and which provide specialty restaurants, and other such manifestations of the surprising "inequality" of those willing to pay $5,000 for a cruise versus those anxious to pay a great deal more for a different experience. (Rumor has it that steerage accommodation on such vessels includes neither life-preservers nor lifeboat space, and tickets must be purchased separately for occasional access to open decks.)
Indeed, without the deep analysis evidenced in this article, I might have remained ignorant of the aspects of a marketplace which permits these inhumane displays of wealth disparity.
Great work; keep it up. I look forward to your study of housing prices in SoHo vs. Co-Op City, too.
Presumably the paper's writers and its editorial staff will do their best to generate yet more envy of those who choose to spend their money in a manner they do not not explicitly condone.
Perhaps it would have been helpful to examine other cruise lines as well, where -- shocking, I know -- not all cabins command the same price, and which provide specialty restaurants, and other such manifestations of the surprising "inequality" of those willing to pay $5,000 for a cruise versus those anxious to pay a great deal more for a different experience. (Rumor has it that steerage accommodation on such vessels includes neither life-preservers nor lifeboat space, and tickets must be purchased separately for occasional access to open decks.)
Indeed, without the deep analysis evidenced in this article, I might have remained ignorant of the aspects of a marketplace which permits these inhumane displays of wealth disparity.
Great work; keep it up. I look forward to your study of housing prices in SoHo vs. Co-Op City, too.
11
From the high to the low, the customers in the cruise ship market are still just a ship of fools willing to cram themselves onto high-rise ships, a lifestyle they've prepared for cramming themselves into high-rise cities. I wouldn't trade living in a lightly populated corner of the American West for all that "high life." Even poor, my riches are more abundant by far than what's found in such human infestations. I pray you return your waste with you to port. I don't want to share our lightly populated beaches here with any part of you.
6
It sounds like a byproduct of your bucolic lifestyle is an enormous amount of rage. A cruise might help/
22
If you're paying to go on a cruise you are poor in taste, you can spend 100 large and still, poor poor you!
9
"Norwegian" Cruise Lines? And Bernie Sanders assured us that the Scandinavians were perfectly egalitarian.
8
The irony is that Norwegian Cruise Lines has no connection to Norway. It's incorporated in Bermuda and its headquarters are in an unincorporated area of Miami-Dade County, Florida. The company is just trading on a Scandinavian image -- all smoke and mirrors.
29
i think their ships are built in norway
We presume you are speaking in jest. But just in case,
The third largest cruise line is Norwegian Cruise Line Holdings Ltd. ("NCLH"). It is also a public corporation traded on the stock exchanges. However, it is controlled by Apollo Management Ltd. and Genting Hong Kong Limited, who owned Norwegian in its entirely prior to the initial public offering in January 2013.
The third largest cruise line is Norwegian Cruise Line Holdings Ltd. ("NCLH"). It is also a public corporation traded on the stock exchanges. However, it is controlled by Apollo Management Ltd. and Genting Hong Kong Limited, who owned Norwegian in its entirely prior to the initial public offering in January 2013.
2
The 0.1% are on yachts, but maybe the 1% segregated on these ships could spend an hour or two mingling with the hoi polo-- and deduct the whole cruise as an educational expense.
9
If it was deductible then they could change the name to "Tax Haven".
13
100 years ago, everyone who traveled between Europe and the US did so over water. Just like First Class, Business Class, Economy Plus, and economy (where most sit) on today's planes, ships had different levels of comfort and service.
Now the floating form of transportation is how people spend their vacation dollars. People who stay on land stay in all levels of hotel...from Holiday Inn to Aman Resorts. It's accepted.
[spoiler alert]
Life's not fair.
Now the floating form of transportation is how people spend their vacation dollars. People who stay on land stay in all levels of hotel...from Holiday Inn to Aman Resorts. It's accepted.
[spoiler alert]
Life's not fair.
4
Uh, did anyone see Titanic but me. This is not new. Get on a plane and you walk through first class and then business and then where we all sit. I think the Pierre hotel has been around for a while along with the Motel Six. So okay, the marketing is more targeted but that doesn't mean there haven't always been companies that target the wealthy. Not news.
8
Did you read the article? They talked about Titanic and what's happened since then.
(Really, I think many people see an article headline and jump straight to the comment section without reading the article itself)
(Really, I think many people see an article headline and jump straight to the comment section without reading the article itself)
1
There comes a point where you have so much money that you have to buy your friends, and your friends are really friends with your money.
In the old days, a first class voyage on an ocean liner is the equal of a private jet today. 2nd class was first class on a commercial airline. tourist 3rd the obvious.
I see no point in segregating the ships. Those with deep pockets Seaborne, Regent and Silverseas, those on a budget, Carnival, NCL, and Royal Caribbean.
What Norwegian and Royal Caribbean are missing is the ports. The big mass market ships go to the Coney Island type of ports in the Caribbean and the Mexican Riviera. Regent, Silverseas, and Seaborne go to exotic places in Asia, India, Africa, and South America.
Anybody in the haven still is sharing vessel with the hoi polloi, and yes, the class divided ships give stepchild treatment to the proletariat. What is the point unless you want to show off?
It is a shame the cruise industry exhumed the ugliest part of ocean travel from the 20th century.
David -Philly
In the old days, a first class voyage on an ocean liner is the equal of a private jet today. 2nd class was first class on a commercial airline. tourist 3rd the obvious.
I see no point in segregating the ships. Those with deep pockets Seaborne, Regent and Silverseas, those on a budget, Carnival, NCL, and Royal Caribbean.
What Norwegian and Royal Caribbean are missing is the ports. The big mass market ships go to the Coney Island type of ports in the Caribbean and the Mexican Riviera. Regent, Silverseas, and Seaborne go to exotic places in Asia, India, Africa, and South America.
Anybody in the haven still is sharing vessel with the hoi polloi, and yes, the class divided ships give stepchild treatment to the proletariat. What is the point unless you want to show off?
It is a shame the cruise industry exhumed the ugliest part of ocean travel from the 20th century.
David -Philly
5
This article fails to mention that paying for a low-end cruise cabin around $4,000 + all the other expenses is in fact already in the high range of affordability for most Americans. The $30,000 cabins are the playground of the truly rich. The vast majority of Americans will never be able to afford even the cheapest of the cruises.
11
Really? How much do the "vast majority of Americans" spend each month on cell phones, cable, SUV payments, fast food, etc etc? If one makes a cruise a priority, one can save for it quite easily.
3
If you know where to shop, there are plenty of cruises with reasonable rooms for less than $4,000. The rule my parents go by is the base cost of the cruise (without tips, airline travel to the port, off-ship tours) should be $100-$150 a day, which is a bargain when you consider that is room + 3 meals a day + transport.
And they travel on the "better" cruise lines and trips. If you go on Carnival for example on their 3-day Caribbean or Mexico trips, it's only a few hundred bucks, so affordable for a middle class person.
And they travel on the "better" cruise lines and trips. If you go on Carnival for example on their 3-day Caribbean or Mexico trips, it's only a few hundred bucks, so affordable for a middle class person.
3
Yet another reason never ever to get aboard a cruise ship. As if there aren't enough already.
20
I truly never quite understand what the appeal of cruises are. These people pay fantastic amount to go out to the sea, in a setting that reminds them they are NOT at sea. What's the point, really? If they want all the land comforts, why bother going to the sea? It makes even less sense for those who want to seclude themselves, in a ship-within-a-ship type of area, where they don't need to see anyone but themselves in the mirror. The whole idea is just so idiotic, it's almost funny.
Imagine, just imagine, that kind of money going to charity. Perhaps that might enrich their lives a tidbit more than eating and sleeping within those four fake walls.
Imagine, just imagine, that kind of money going to charity. Perhaps that might enrich their lives a tidbit more than eating and sleeping within those four fake walls.
6
How long can this situation go on? Moving toward a point of instability.
8
Its great to be wealthy. Hip Hip for the smart company that redistributes income from the wealthy to the working man and investor. Keep up the good work. Much better than taxation that benefits civil servants and politicians
1
Dooooo. Rodney, it is really so tiresome having to mix with the Masses of Lower-Lowers on this ship. I refuse to drown with them, too.
We will be loading the Lifeboats by Class, won't we?
We will be loading the Lifeboats by Class, won't we?
5
In the long run, catering almost solely to the top 1 percent is not a good business model, as we found out in 1929. There is a limit to the amount of personal spending even the most hedonistic rich person can do, and as income inequality grows, the market share is literally shrinking. These businesses will soon find themselves reaching a ceiling, and then it will begin lowering. Rather than trying to capture this vanishing point of the wealthy, these businesses would do better to agitate for higher taxation and greater public spending on infrastructure to increase higher-paying middle class jobs, which in turn will grow the volume of their sales. As it stands now, fewer and fewer people have any discretionary income at all. We are all better off--including the wealthy, whose money ultimately comes from consumer spending--when income inequality is firmly addressed with much higher taxation. Which is why I'm voting for Sanders.
11
This has been so obvious for so long.
Nor is the service-gap by any means limited to travel: our entire nation is divided between economy and business. Those without keep having abuses heaped on them, as pennies are extracted by cramming them in or whittling away at what they get, while the wealthy gorge themselves.
Want to talk to your representative or senator? You're as likely to get God on the phone. But wealthy campaign contributors have instant access.
Public schools are increasingly shortchanged—our heroic teachers have to hold fundraisers each year, just for basic supplies; and arts and athletics are simply jettisoned, as though kids' whole development isn't worth the expense. Meanwhile, children at private schools get the best of everything.
Consider our infrastructure decisions: the disgrace of Flint, Michigan isn't simply that our elected officials choose to poison poor, minority kids, but that we are doing something similar nationwide, and only because we have pared away at our tax base, since the wealthy own Congress. So there is extra income for the NetJet class to splurge, but to heck with clean water for all kids.
Indeed, Congress just gave corporations a disgusting windfall on their $2.1 TRILLION in profits stashed overseas—an 8% gift repatriation rate.
No, we are not in the same boat: there are yachts for the few, and rubber dinghies for the multitudes. This won't change until more people get fed up and organize for dignity and equity.
@ricfouad
Nor is the service-gap by any means limited to travel: our entire nation is divided between economy and business. Those without keep having abuses heaped on them, as pennies are extracted by cramming them in or whittling away at what they get, while the wealthy gorge themselves.
Want to talk to your representative or senator? You're as likely to get God on the phone. But wealthy campaign contributors have instant access.
Public schools are increasingly shortchanged—our heroic teachers have to hold fundraisers each year, just for basic supplies; and arts and athletics are simply jettisoned, as though kids' whole development isn't worth the expense. Meanwhile, children at private schools get the best of everything.
Consider our infrastructure decisions: the disgrace of Flint, Michigan isn't simply that our elected officials choose to poison poor, minority kids, but that we are doing something similar nationwide, and only because we have pared away at our tax base, since the wealthy own Congress. So there is extra income for the NetJet class to splurge, but to heck with clean water for all kids.
Indeed, Congress just gave corporations a disgusting windfall on their $2.1 TRILLION in profits stashed overseas—an 8% gift repatriation rate.
No, we are not in the same boat: there are yachts for the few, and rubber dinghies for the multitudes. This won't change until more people get fed up and organize for dignity and equity.
@ricfouad
24
But in the current primary the majority of the "fed up" people are turning to an abusive billionaire as the 'solution'. So even if people get "fed up" it doesn't mean they'll do anything sensible with their anger.
4
While what you say is true, it's not the case with the rich and the richer in this article, where it's comparing those paying $3-4k stateroom versus $10k delux version of it.
3
Well that confirms that I will never, ever, go on a cruise.
18
As the money interest rate is close to zero, the 1% do not want to hoard cash or choose saving and abstinence as a way of managing money. In addition to low interest rate, they find less profitable investment outlets available to them hence spending income as though there would be no tomorrow carries the day. When they stop doing the extravaganza, something is going to happen to the laboring masses – unemployment and underemployment either as usual or more. They maintain a money-based caste system where enhancement of the bottom line is their no. 1 priority and anything else is secondary or non-existent. For such an exchange economy, the more luxury commodities are produced for the 1%, the means of subsistence for the masses tend to be squeezed from the high end in profitability and less competitive. People may have to pay more.
1
But do the truly affluent even consider using these mass market cruise ships? They are using their own ocean going yachts, either owned or leased as in the Gilded Age. I suspect this "luxury" class on these mass market cruise ships is not for the "masters of the universe" types but successful doctors, lawyers and owners of several fast food franchise outlets. In other words, near rich, and not the billionaire class.
Besides, the near rich already have smaller cruise and trans-Atlantic options with more exclusive pedigrees like Cunard or Crystal Cruises or smaller specialized luxury nature or river cruise operations. At the risk of getting all kinds of brickbats thrown at me, who can blame them? Have you seen the all too common rowdy, often drunken riff-raff now using lower price point accommodations on these mass market ships? I'm not affluent and this type keeps me off cruise ships as I can't afford the luxe section.
Besides, the near rich already have smaller cruise and trans-Atlantic options with more exclusive pedigrees like Cunard or Crystal Cruises or smaller specialized luxury nature or river cruise operations. At the risk of getting all kinds of brickbats thrown at me, who can blame them? Have you seen the all too common rowdy, often drunken riff-raff now using lower price point accommodations on these mass market ships? I'm not affluent and this type keeps me off cruise ships as I can't afford the luxe section.
12
For those who consider this to be unfair, have no fear. It will all collapse, and sooner than anyone could have predicted. A revolution is coming.
11
The conservatives are the ones with the guns. So if there's a revolution the result will be an even more unequal society than we have today.
1
Let's hope there's an express line (gold key cards only) to the guillotine when it returns, and standing room only for the hoi polloi to watch.
11
Let's not work ourselves up like that, to the extent of wishing those with money to all head to the guillotine, not unless you can prove their wealth is all ill-gotten gains.
3
Actually, I wasn't worked up at all. I was having a laugh.
3
There's a tone to this article that I'm sure is fully intentional and micro-aggressive: that people of means are to be loathed, ostracized, shunned. How sad. If you aspire to a higher station, go for it, become the micro-aggressed in this piece. if you're happy where you are, don't, but don't resent either.
8
Micro agressed. Don't you think it is Macro Agression to segregate with poor doors and gates. It is not that people of means are loathed. It is loathing that there are so few of them and so many many others. You must be uber rich and feel guilty. A lot of people aspire to a higher "station" as you say. But 5 out of jobs that have a future pay less than $30.000.00 a year.
4
Well, is anyone still voting for American-styled democracy or free market economy? Is anyone still believe in the superiority of American so-called values of equality and hard work?
8
And this is a country who cannot guarantee basic health care for its citizens.
23
A small correction is in order. The writer said that Delta Air Lines "ferries" what he calls "top-dollar travelers" between terminals in a Porsche. This service (which I've experienced several times) is used when a traveler has a tight connection. The phrase "top-dollar traveler" is wrong because the service is provided to the airline's best customers (those with platinum and diamond status), and most of them are smart enough to purchase tickets wisely and not pay top dollar.
5
Agreed, we had that service last week and it was because I fly a lot and am a Diamond, not because I spend a lot on tickets. It was kind of fun though.
My parents are regular cruise customers but I went on my first one 2 years ago. It was a 2-week long cruise and quite pleasant even though we shared a small room with a window. What made the trip in my mind, other than the food and ability to go from port to port without changing rooms, was the staff. We had the same people serving us for 2 weeks and had a chance to talk to them a bit.
Our waiters were two guys in the late 30s -- one had worked his way up as professional waiters since his teens, the other was a former lawyer in his country but found that the cruise ship paid more. Our head room service guy paid attention to the details and always made sure we had our nightly pot of tea. It made me a bit sad to see how hard these folks worked and the high standards they worked to. We are not a poor family but neither are we very wealthy. However, every cruise my parents take, they try to leave a generous tip and we did the same for this cruise.
Since then, I have read about how cruise lines treat their staff as well as the environmental impact of cruises and I'm not sure whether I'll take one again. If I do, it will come down to a line that treats its staff well and is environmentally friendly.
Our waiters were two guys in the late 30s -- one had worked his way up as professional waiters since his teens, the other was a former lawyer in his country but found that the cruise ship paid more. Our head room service guy paid attention to the details and always made sure we had our nightly pot of tea. It made me a bit sad to see how hard these folks worked and the high standards they worked to. We are not a poor family but neither are we very wealthy. However, every cruise my parents take, they try to leave a generous tip and we did the same for this cruise.
Since then, I have read about how cruise lines treat their staff as well as the environmental impact of cruises and I'm not sure whether I'll take one again. If I do, it will come down to a line that treats its staff well and is environmentally friendly.
14
The way they treat their staffs is an outrage. The wait staff for the cruise I was one was forced to perform a song and dance between courses - which seemed to me to be quite a humiliating exercise - especially for the female waiters, some of whom had to fend off leers from leches while serving.
Not all " rich people " are the same! Many of them became rich because their talent , hard work, or visionary ideas....they never in any position to be villains , but making our community better each day through their charity donations, and advancement of technology, advocates for less fortunate ect.. For those riches, they have my highest level of respect, and grateful that the world is better place because of them. They have all of my blessings to their " exclusive club", because this is all I can do to repay them for their efforts for rest of us.
8
many more got their money by being born to th right daddy and mommy
can you beat that for clever ?
can you beat that for clever ?
7
Guilt money is given to charities. Let the self made super rich figure out when enough is enough for them. Bill and Melinda Gates come to mind, Mark Zuckerberg, Bloomberg. Yes. But they are not on those ocean liners. We need a change. I am grateful for those who give. But that is a pittance compared to what could be done to change the growing disparity between the economic classes. That is what the article points to. We should question why this is going on.
1
Ok, so hiking trips in Colorado are off limits, not exclusive. Rock gyms are out, not exclusive. Back pack trips are out, not exclusive. Goth club are out, not exclusive. Ice climbing parks are out not exclusive. Eldorado rock climbs are out not exclusive. Back country ski trips are out, not exclusive. scuba dving is out not exclusive.
On a backpack trip once, we met some landed gentry from England at Gueunela pass, Colorado, 12000 feet. They flew to CO to prep for a high altitude Africa trip. Guess what, same paring lot, there was not an exclusive parking lot at 12000 feet for them. Bottom line, to get out to the world, you will be with everybody. Or you stay in a prison.
On a backpack trip once, we met some landed gentry from England at Gueunela pass, Colorado, 12000 feet. They flew to CO to prep for a high altitude Africa trip. Guess what, same paring lot, there was not an exclusive parking lot at 12000 feet for them. Bottom line, to get out to the world, you will be with everybody. Or you stay in a prison.
7
Steerage on the Titanic: two of them were Irish girls, Delia Henry, and Delia Mahon (my wife's last name). Both Delia's died on the Titanic. They boarded in Ireland, and they were going to the New World. Had they survived, their descendants would be among us today. Rita and I found their names in the passenger list. No one thinks of them today ... but no! --- you (and I) are thinking of them now.
6
On the typical cruise ship cabins are closet-like & lots & lots of people are crowded into small spaces. I marvel at Long Beach, CA, where the Queen Mary has been transformed into a dockside hotel. A grand idea until you get there & look around. On the other hand, the top 0.1 percent see another side of cruise ships, as the story points out.
3
If I go for miserable class can I pack my own sandwiches and beer and maybe some antibiotics for a third class epidemic situation.
5
I'd feel better about this if I could laugh at the follies of the rich, watching them burn through their dollar bills just to preserve the illusion of superiority. Alas, though they are burning their dollar bills, they are not burning through them. Income inequality has become so great that "the wealthy" as depicted in this article can spend as foolishly and bizarrely as they wish, and they won't burn through their wealth. They have too much wealth. I don't even have the satisfaction of watching them ruin themselves in the time-honored fashion that historically the tiresome rich have employed. Oh, well, it keeps them displaying only to each other!
3
Blimey! You could never get me on a boat that size - no matter how "exclusive".
Exclusive to me was going through Alaska for 3 months with my father on his 36' powerboat. We got into places most don't see. We fished, crabbed, climbed glaciers, played dominoes and saw amazing wildlife
Exclusive to me was going through Alaska for 3 months with my father on his 36' powerboat. We got into places most don't see. We fished, crabbed, climbed glaciers, played dominoes and saw amazing wildlife
13
As if I needed another reason NOT to go on a cruise.
16
The disgusting attitude and norms of the super rich just proves more ammo for the campaigns of Bernie Sanders and Donald Trump as the 99 percent majority continues in a free fall while the one percent gains their income levels to a point of ad nausea. As a devoted Democratic Socialist, my opinion about the wealthy is that they need to pay more in taxes in an attempt to reduce class segregation and economic disparities. The Global economy is at a tipping point right now, closed to ever implosion by the alarming gap between the elites versus everyone else in society. This is what Karl Marx refers as the utter destruction of the Bourgeoisie in his thesis on the Communist Manifesto in 1848 with the Proletariat threatening to revolt against the utter effects of destructive capitalism. The only option left to avoid a massive showdown with the working class is to curb wealth away from the one percent and created a social market economy or a regulated mixed economy out of necessary regulations by any government within the industrialized world, including the United States of America. The 21st century Neo-liberal Gilded Age needs an ending point along the roadway.
4
I think cruises are just goofy, unless you are doing the Nile or something. Just get an AirBnB place in a drab beach town but with nice waves and go to the Chinese buffet. Cheaper and you won't have to look at a bunch of drunken idiots. Unless you go in the local bar, which you won't.
7
Looks awful regardless. If you were "very rich" wouldn't you simply have your own boat?
9
Frankly I have never had a desire to go on a cruise with 2-3,000 other people to...do what. I can go to movies, find a pool, a casino, a or a show for a lot less money than paying someone to float me around some body of water for a week to do that. I can't fathom why someone would pay $3,000, much less $10,000 a week for this. That being said, I'm more concerned with the diminished service and choices for ordinary air travelers, for example. I don't need a private lounge, just decent service and some leg room for crying out loud.
20
It has always been thus: first class train passengers always wondered what on earth "those people" in second class were complaining about.
Remember, the price of infinite profits will be revolution.
Remember, the price of infinite profits will be revolution.
11
I stopped NCL when a) people threw towels on deck chairs at 0700 and didn't show up till 1300 with their overweight kids, who proceeded to scream for four hours and threw hamburgers and hot dogs at each other while their parents pretended to be oblivious, b) Engaged in pool behavior that would have embarrassed a Tijuana donkey, c). thought board shorts was appropriate dinner attire, and d) on a super bowl cruise, said "I don't believe I spent $2000 on beer.
Anyone with the Bucks shouldn't be on NCLs rich deck, they should be on another cruise line.
Anyone with the Bucks shouldn't be on NCLs rich deck, they should be on another cruise line.
11
"There comes a time, thief, when the jewels cease to sparkle, when the gold loses its luster, when the throne room becomes a prison, and all that is left is a father's love for his child." Max Von Sydow as King Osric in "Conan the Barbarian." Enjoy it while it lasts.
4
The fundamental problem in America is that the rich do not want to pay more taxes and they control Congress with the help of conservatives in the Supreme Court. The system is rigged and it will only blow up some day. We just don't know which direction it will go after the explosion.
14
Although inequality is a serious problem, I don't think the case is clear that it's a bad thing on tiered-class transportation such as cruise ships and air lines. After all, I could well imagine that economy class airfare would be more expensive if there weren't some passengers willing to "subsidize" the rest of us by paying 5 times as much for twice the room (business class), or 20 times as much for 4 times the room (first class).
I'd be curious if there are any studies that show what the effect on ticket prices would be if airlines (or cruise ships) offered only one class of service. If it turns out that the rich are subsidizing the rest of us folks, I find it difficult to complain. After all, even a first class seat reaches the airport at the same time as the lowest-grade economy class ticket. We're all, literally, in the same boat.
Now private jets and yachts, that's a whole different ballgame.
I'd be curious if there are any studies that show what the effect on ticket prices would be if airlines (or cruise ships) offered only one class of service. If it turns out that the rich are subsidizing the rest of us folks, I find it difficult to complain. After all, even a first class seat reaches the airport at the same time as the lowest-grade economy class ticket. We're all, literally, in the same boat.
Now private jets and yachts, that's a whole different ballgame.
7
Who do you think pays for the majority of business class passengers? The passengers??? WE, their customers squeezed into economy seats with no food, pay for them.
4
southwest airlines has only 1 class of service, and its usually a profitable airline
5
The last time I flew Southwest, the passengers were told to line up by groups of seat numbers, and some were allowed to board before others. I was surprised at that, having heard that Southwest didn't treat anyone differently.
A feast! I propose we solve this problem by having a banquet at which the wealthy are the guests of honor Tonight we dine on the human flesh of the rich! Today, my friends, we are all rich!
4
and tomorrow who pays your salary or are you already transitioning to the welfare roles? probably you are a government worker and have no such concerns.
5
Charles, as much as your sort would like to segregate the working people in the US, we know that we are the ones who keep the systems going. Want to see real problems? Maybe everyone under 40k goes on strike, good luck accomplishing anything.
6
kim, you response is a hypothetical it is as if all business owners shut down tomorrow. within a year the workers would run the business into the ground. it has been tried in venezuela, russia , brazil and argentina and to a lesser degree in western europe in so called essential industries like steel and communications. the results have always been uniformly disastrous
2
Cue the pitchforks. On the other hand, we tried a four night cruise and I would never do it again. The crowds and crowding are unsavory.
9
Ironic that ads for luxury goods and services support the printing of this article. No furs, jewels, exclusive shops and restaurants, swanky real estate ....no NYTimes! Have you ever met an actual poor person? They aren't worried if they can mingle on a cruise ship and they certainly aren't worried about the latest in canned meats and tobacco!
5
I don't see what the big deal is. If you have the ability and desire to pay more, you will and should get better and more exclusive service. If people have a problem with this there are thousands of better ways to spend your $3000. Also as somebody pointed out, the ultra rich are not using Norwegian and Royal Caribbean.
6
Having worked in Beverly Hills for several years I'm familiar with the lifestyles of the rich and famous, and I wouldn't trade places with them. :) Once marketers convince you to use money as a proxy for self-worth, you've been converted into a money addict and a slave to them who can never get enough and never be satisfied. I don't need to drive a certain car, live in a certain house, or have a certain kind of vacation in order to know my own value. I don't spend my life chasing the next thing I don't have, or showing other people what I have. in order to compensate for things I haven't achieved in other areas of my life. I'm actually a happy person -- for real -- and I have a life -- for real.
37
Tell the truth, how deep you dig to come up with this article? The super rich don't book travel on cruise lines, they embark on their own or leased yachts. You didn't say a word about that. The tenor of the article noted continuously the super rich don't want to associate with us reglers and that's the point. They don't have to. They own or lease their own yachts or aircraft. Get serious when you think you have a scoop on things us reglers don't know anything about.
11
That looks like an awfully small pool up there in the Haven. Kind of cheesy when you consider the extra 7 grand you spent to stay a week up there. And when you get off the boat in whatever tourist trap you land in, you will be still be surrounded by the 3998 souls who are your inferiors.
3
Pictures of the Haven made me claustrophobic. So we're booked in an aft balcony suite for a trip this fall. Half the price of the cheapest Haven cabin and twice the private outdoor space.
5
There but for the wrong parents, go i.
7
As mentioned by others, nothing new here - the rich are on top, the middle class in the middle, but now the poor are not onboard - no steerage on cruise ships. However on airlines there is steerage class - called "economy class" on the low fare airlines and increasingly even on so-called regular airlines - especially in the US - knees in your face, too small seats, service sometimes with a snarl.
I have no desire to go on a cruise - cannot think of a worse way to spend money - and time. As for those who fly first class or business class - I have managed to fly 18 hours non-stop in economy class and lived to tell the tale. it was not fun - but it also was fairly civilized as it was not a US legacy airline.
I have no desire to go on a cruise - cannot think of a worse way to spend money - and time. As for those who fly first class or business class - I have managed to fly 18 hours non-stop in economy class and lived to tell the tale. it was not fun - but it also was fairly civilized as it was not a US legacy airline.
5
I don't understand the issue? Everything in our society works that way. The club at the sports arena, Airline membership. Charter school, etc. True 1% would not be caught dead on that ship. They have a cruise with a private crew away from the masses.
5
There are plenty of 1%ers on mainstream line cruises.
The thing is that society's vision of the lifestyle of the "1%" is actually more like the lifestyle of the 0.001%.
The thing is that society's vision of the lifestyle of the "1%" is actually more like the lifestyle of the 0.001%.
5
This article could have been so much more. This article focuses excessively on a narrow slice of society, the cruise industry, whereas class segregation increasingly cuts across many aspects of day-to-day life. (It's just most evident during travel when the classes are often forced to mix.....or not so much.) As the wealthy increasingly seek psychological comfort by separating themselves from the masses they will be less able to empathize with the plight of everyday people. This matters since the opinions/attitudes of the wealthy weigh disproportionately in political decision making. There is an ethic here; just because we have the means to live an elite lifestyle doesn't mean we should.
5
Sorry. My outrage meter is temporarily closed down for maintenance.
Sure, it's obnoxious that these separate accommodations exist and are/were kept secret (till now), but I guess anyone can get what they're able to pay for, and nobody ever went broke catering to the self-important rich. What are you going to do about it? I'm asking you, Editorial Board, since you brought it up. Was it just to rile your readers, the non-rich ones?
One day we'll be on the Snowpiercer train, if we're not already, with the super-rich enjoying luxuries we regular people can't even imagine while we peasants eat protein bars made from insects.
Sure, it's obnoxious that these separate accommodations exist and are/were kept secret (till now), but I guess anyone can get what they're able to pay for, and nobody ever went broke catering to the self-important rich. What are you going to do about it? I'm asking you, Editorial Board, since you brought it up. Was it just to rile your readers, the non-rich ones?
One day we'll be on the Snowpiercer train, if we're not already, with the super-rich enjoying luxuries we regular people can't even imagine while we peasants eat protein bars made from insects.
5
Trilby,
Thanks for the Snowpiercer reference. I'd never heard of that. Will have to see if the library can get a copy.
Thanks for the Snowpiercer reference. I'd never heard of that. Will have to see if the library can get a copy.
2
Sounds like the $32 burger and fries that the NYTimes discussed a few days ago.
A fool and his money are soon parted. The very rich just do it in bigger chunks.
Seven times higher prices? How DUMB do you have to be to spend the extra money? None of these bozos is any more important or worthy than any of the rest of us.
A fool and his money are soon parted. The very rich just do it in bigger chunks.
Seven times higher prices? How DUMB do you have to be to spend the extra money? None of these bozos is any more important or worthy than any of the rest of us.
4
Are we seeing the end of "late capitalism". Apparently Napoleon said that the poor would murder the rich if it weren't for the church. I really don't see that happening but I sense this can't go
on; there are too many of the have-nots.
on; there are too many of the have-nots.
7
I am shocked and amazed that mere money can be exchanged for preferential service. I always thought 'first class' on airplanes meant people who arrived first got those seats. Score one more blow for the righteous NY Times, conscience of a generation.
10
It would do well for the readers to find contrast in today's article on Lady Elizabeth Anson.
5
The airlines and cruise lines will treat the general public the way the g.p. allows them to. If air travelers want to spend $100 on the cheapest, bottom-line no frills ticket, they will be treated as such. Cattle-car accommodations, no leg room, no refreshments, no place to put your arms. I gave up - they win. I pay for a Business Class seat. Do I like it? No, but I like being treated like a sardine even less. As for cruises, they are a victim of their own success. It is now possible for everyone to go - and everyone does. Last one I went on was full of tattoo-laden individuals of mammoth proportions who never left the buffet tables. Is it worth it to pay extra to avoid that type of, 'quality' person? I don't know but those three-night, El Cheapo Cruises have lost their luster for me (and we stayed in a lovely cabin).
5
Would the tatooed buffeters have been more tolerable if they were thin?
While skiing Vail, kayaking quiet Alaskan shorelines, and hiking high Yosemite trails, this geography professor always feels in the one percent. No amount of ostentatious pampering would enrich sharing the outdoors in simple fashion with my wife and children.
12
Wealthy people create jobs and that's a good thing.
10
Bob C.,
That's a myth perpetrated by Fox News and the politicians who want nothing more than to pass laws enabling them to get rich(er). Most of the 1% inherited their money or made it by gambling with other people's money on Wall Street. Keep in mind that hedge funds create absolutely nothing, other than obscene profits for their managers. That money is coming mostly from middle class investors and pension funds.
That's a myth perpetrated by Fox News and the politicians who want nothing more than to pass laws enabling them to get rich(er). Most of the 1% inherited their money or made it by gambling with other people's money on Wall Street. Keep in mind that hedge funds create absolutely nothing, other than obscene profits for their managers. That money is coming mostly from middle class investors and pension funds.
13
@LisaD - sorry, but I don't buy the OWS propoganda. Maybe most of the 0.1% or 0.01% inherited their wealth. But if you're talking about the top 1% of income earners, I think your statistic is way off.
4
I spent some time as sailor on decidedly less luxurious vessels in the some of the same waters plied by these cruise ships. It was hard work, especially the Panama Canal. But I would not trade one minute of it for a trip in the "Haven".
What I did was real and I have hundreds of stores to tell now that I am an old man. Will the residents of the "Haven" have stories to tell?
What I did was real and I have hundreds of stores to tell now that I am an old man. Will the residents of the "Haven" have stories to tell?
5
Basically, since the top 1% spending outpaces everyone else, business will not care about everyone else and how they feel about service and policies that allow the wealthy to be treated better or exit the ship first.
I see a "Titantic Revolution" in the making.
Will be a great day when it happens
I see a "Titantic Revolution" in the making.
Will be a great day when it happens
8
We have definitely entered a new gilded age. A few differences from the last one are that communications are so much better that those on the lower end are very well aware of those at the top (a potentially explosive situation). Much of modern day wealth is generated through deception whether by complicated opaque financial instruments or at the expense of the government (with the middle class footing the bill). I feel people respect wealth generated through merit, especially when that wealth is spread around in the community as was often the case in the gilded age. Not so much now.
Our present political struggle is just the beginning of the friction between the classes. It will be interesting to see if the new Royalty can be any more successful at holding the peasants at bay than their historical compatriots were.
Our present political struggle is just the beginning of the friction between the classes. It will be interesting to see if the new Royalty can be any more successful at holding the peasants at bay than their historical compatriots were.
15
The last part "I cringe as people walk by" is right on. On airplanes for business class it's super awkward when economy cabin people walk past the business class cabin and sometimes you hear little kids say "woah why can't we sit here."
This is also why, if you pay an extra few thousand for first class, you won't have to deal with this awkwardness.
This is also why, if you pay an extra few thousand for first class, you won't have to deal with this awkwardness.
3
It's bad enough that people would invite such fawning indulgences onto themselves. But what about their children? How can they expose their children to it? They could end up like the Romanovs one day.
5
Even the supposedly classless Soviets used to have seating classes on their trains.
8
What a shocking article! To imagine that in a capitalist nation, some folks have more money than others. What a revelation! I'm not sure if I should laugh or feel sorry for the writer.
Thank you so much NY Times!
Thank you so much NY Times!
18
Royal Caribbean's chief operating officer, Adam Goldstein, says of the rich passengers, "They are looking for constant validation that they are a higher-value customer." A person must be insecure to look for constant validation. What are the rich afraid of?
6
"If I'm in the back of the plane, I want to hiss at the people in first class. If I'm up front, I cringe as people walk by."
Hissing and cringing could evolve to violence, but I guess that's why the top cringers are establishing a full surveillance/police state, in the name of 'anti-terrorism'. Do executives consider that they may be playing with fire?
Hissing and cringing could evolve to violence, but I guess that's why the top cringers are establishing a full surveillance/police state, in the name of 'anti-terrorism'. Do executives consider that they may be playing with fire?
2
Then again, I doubt the truly rich would travel on a regular cruise ship. But aspiration unsatisfied can lead to resentment.
3
Exactly. The truly rich stay as far away from cruise ships as humanly possible. Another reason why this article makes no sense.
It's referring to the "wanna be" true rich, per se.
It's referring to the "wanna be" true rich, per se.
4
I don't think these are the ultra rich, the real rich would never have the nightmare of getting on a commercial cruise, they have their own yacht, private jet, etc. These companies are just tailor to the semi-rich.
I can't imagine Larry Ellison or Koch brother families in any of these places in the story.
I can't imagine Larry Ellison or Koch brother families in any of these places in the story.
18
I think you are correct. These are splurgers, spending 30K on Royal Carribean once a year on their limited vacation time to feel like part of the 1%. The mega rich really don't need to flash their wealth like this and wouldn't be caught dead on Royal Carribean or Norwegian.
4
maybe not. I saw steven forbes on the nyc subway a number of times.. don't forget, he was in the running to be nominated for President of US. i watched. the hoi polloi did not not recognize him,
2
one more thing.
probably he was in a rush. he was traveling on the subway, instead of in a chauffeured limo, because the subway is faster than a car during NYC rush hour.
he showed himself to be a practical man and probably would have made a good president.
probably he was in a rush. he was traveling on the subway, instead of in a chauffeured limo, because the subway is faster than a car during NYC rush hour.
he showed himself to be a practical man and probably would have made a good president.
3
In a way, it's business doing what business sets out to do. They zero in on the high-yield customers, give them white-glove treatment, and why not? They pay way more than the other customers do. Such is the same across all industries, including airlines, financial services, even retailers. If you can pay, you can enjoy the privilege and service, and the exclusivity that comes with it. Just look at the pictures in the article, the kids in the private pool aren't so white, and that says a lot about what really matters.
For those who cannot afford it, except to look in through looking glass, I'd say, just give it a rest. Those on the left complain about disparity in wealth and want more redistribution to let the mass share the luxury, those on the right want to tell the world it only fuels their desire to work harder to get in that exclusive club. Whichever way you look at it, it's just economics. Nothing more.
For those who cannot afford it, except to look in through looking glass, I'd say, just give it a rest. Those on the left complain about disparity in wealth and want more redistribution to let the mass share the luxury, those on the right want to tell the world it only fuels their desire to work harder to get in that exclusive club. Whichever way you look at it, it's just economics. Nothing more.
6
I have the solution to all of this class envy: go camping. Breathe in the great outdoors and gaze at the stars. Make a bonfire. Strum your guitar. Enjoy some quality time with your family. Take long hikes and quench your thirst with ordinary water. And stop peering into the luxurious self-glorifying enclaves of the uber-wealthy. You're just going to feel like you are missing out - but you're not. The best things in life are still free.
37
I guess you haven't seen some of the rolling palaces that are filling up the drive through pads.
4
You are spot on, my fellow Charlottean. Sweet air, cool water, a starry night and a warm fire. That is true luxury.
2
The falling part is not that companies pander to high net worth clients, but that so many of them are paying for it in stolen money.
The Panama Papers is but a peep into the massive industry of helping the wealthy evade taxes- effectively shifting the burden of paying for government onto the ordinary working people. The stunning amount of wealth stolen by the Oligarchs in the aftermath of the Soviet Union, the similar occurrences in China, the open use and acceptance of child labor by Western Companies and the tolerance of it by consumers, the pricing of people out of the world's great cities to provide for ghost apartments for the ultra rich...
Where exactly does this stop? Who plays the bartender that says you have had enough and calls you a cab?
Our planet is fast approaching the limits of it's carrying capacity and the schemers have already been angling on how to privatize such things as water systems. Maybe they should read The Parable of the Rich Fool in Luke 12 and think about what they are doing.
The Panama Papers is but a peep into the massive industry of helping the wealthy evade taxes- effectively shifting the burden of paying for government onto the ordinary working people. The stunning amount of wealth stolen by the Oligarchs in the aftermath of the Soviet Union, the similar occurrences in China, the open use and acceptance of child labor by Western Companies and the tolerance of it by consumers, the pricing of people out of the world's great cities to provide for ghost apartments for the ultra rich...
Where exactly does this stop? Who plays the bartender that says you have had enough and calls you a cab?
Our planet is fast approaching the limits of it's carrying capacity and the schemers have already been angling on how to privatize such things as water systems. Maybe they should read The Parable of the Rich Fool in Luke 12 and think about what they are doing.
26
Folks sitting in first class on airplanes, are by a large majority business fliers who have schlepped their behinds all over the country for work and have risen through the airlines rewards programs. I formerly commuted by air every week from the east to the Midwest, and the first class section was invariably 90% business travelers who received no-cost upgrades, and older folks who needed the extra room and cashed in their credit card miles they've saved over the years buying groceries and gas to visit their grandkids. I think air travel falls into a different category from the other pay-for-perk travel discussed in the article.
17
Not me, I pay extra for that Business Class seat. I don't have flyer miles or qualify for any other 'I wanna be better than you' plan. Maybe if more people just paid a little extra for better treatment, the airlines would start treating us better. Until then, you get what you pay for.
3
If you enrolled in a frequent flier program you wouldn't need to pay extra for a business class seat after awhile. The airlines give do the business traveler what they pay for. Tickets booked on short notice cost more, and are booked frequently by business travelers. That is where airlines are making their money, not on the family flying to Orland for spring break. Business travelers pay into a higher fare code as a result, and if you travel often, the miles add up quickly, and get discounted upgrades.If you want to pay full boat to sit up front, be my guest, but you are taking a seat away from a business travel who is looking forward to the upgrade after a hard week on the road. Sound like you Kathleenh just want to feel special. I just want to get on and off the plane faster, not have to sit next to someone I have to fight over elbow room with, and get home.
A cruise is such a middle class thing... these luxury suites are like having a first class on the subway train!
25
I guess . . . i don't know and doubt I'll ever know because my profession precludes that. I teach inner-city students in Brooklyn. (When I'm not exasperated) I like them so much and my life is so interesting and rich because of them: they come from everywhere and have so many interesting things to say and stories to tell. I suppose living like this could make me happy, but so does this. Meh.
8
The idea of using exclusivity on an NCL ship as an example of class stratification undermines the whole point of the article. It's NCL. It's about the most affordable cruise line out there. Private access on an NCL ship is like putting up a velvet rope to section off seats on the subway. Don't get me wrong; I like NCL. I've been on their ships many times; I've even been up to the Haven. But if you're genuinely rich, there are a lot more expensive -- and exclusive -- ways to cruise.
As for the point of the article, the problem is not that the rich are rich; it's that it's human nature to be jealous. No matter who you are, someone's richer. We've all got to learn to focus on what we have and stop worrying about what we don't have.
I'm sailing on NCL at Christmas: inside cabin, deck 2. Looking forward to it, and really appreciate those Havenites subsidizing my cruise so handsomely.
As for the point of the article, the problem is not that the rich are rich; it's that it's human nature to be jealous. No matter who you are, someone's richer. We've all got to learn to focus on what we have and stop worrying about what we don't have.
I'm sailing on NCL at Christmas: inside cabin, deck 2. Looking forward to it, and really appreciate those Havenites subsidizing my cruise so handsomely.
43
PS Thanks for the heads up. Will never need to go on any of those cruises in the future, since I wouldn't bet on life boats for the rest of us in steerage. And I'm sure that the chivalry that we've seen on the Titanic movies will be non-existent, today. It'll be like Edward G Robinson's character in the Ten Commandments.
5
How ironic that the "wealthy customer" section is called Haven. Most of those passengers ended up with all of that money because of a "haven" - a tax haven.
12
I get it that I am supposed to be outraged that people can choose to pay more of their own money for what they consider to be more valuable goods or services.
But I am not. It is their money, they can spend it as they choose.
What gets me outraged is when I am forced to pay for someone else's luxurious lifestyle. For example- some foreign bigwig comes to the US and I, as a taxpayer, pay for a big fancy state dinner at the White House. If the President wants to throw a party, let him pay for it.
But I am not. It is their money, they can spend it as they choose.
What gets me outraged is when I am forced to pay for someone else's luxurious lifestyle. For example- some foreign bigwig comes to the US and I, as a taxpayer, pay for a big fancy state dinner at the White House. If the President wants to throw a party, let him pay for it.
4
I feel positive you leveled this complaint against the last President (Bush) also.
5
The ultimate corporate-world dream is coming true. You have two choices in life. One, get with the program and stomp on anyone who competes with you, get all the money you can haul in with a truck and, always, always, concentrate on getting/taking more OR, two, be left behind to be grossly exploited because you don't have money or assets, you are weak to the system that requires massive, leveraged advantage taking of those without wealth through high interest rates, long mortgages, college loans that last close to a lifetime and higher prices for inferior, foreign sourced goods.
This is a bleak world view, but the enterprise based, capitalist economy requires losers in order to have winners. Where do you think the money the "winners" have comes from? A great portion of that money comes from exploitation of the weak or weaker. In a society that runs on loans, what else could be the case? Those who have make tons of money by loaning it out, in various ways, at high rates to those who don't. Those who borrow spend their lives working to pay it back, shoving interest payments upward.
A perfectly fair system will never exist, but the grotesque character of the American economy is becoming more starkly revealed every day. Cruise ship lines rely on Joe and Mary from Indiana, working hard and taking a big trip once in awhile. So, on top of that business model they put the mega-rich to, literally look down on those who work for wages and nothing more? Nice.
Doug Terry
This is a bleak world view, but the enterprise based, capitalist economy requires losers in order to have winners. Where do you think the money the "winners" have comes from? A great portion of that money comes from exploitation of the weak or weaker. In a society that runs on loans, what else could be the case? Those who have make tons of money by loaning it out, in various ways, at high rates to those who don't. Those who borrow spend their lives working to pay it back, shoving interest payments upward.
A perfectly fair system will never exist, but the grotesque character of the American economy is becoming more starkly revealed every day. Cruise ship lines rely on Joe and Mary from Indiana, working hard and taking a big trip once in awhile. So, on top of that business model they put the mega-rich to, literally look down on those who work for wages and nothing more? Nice.
Doug Terry
9
David Foster Wallace went to town on this. Have a read if you're feeling envious. http://bit.ly/1i7Da4j
2
Not really. He was talking about the "masses" class on a cruise ship and how catered to and indulged even they are. Lobster, shrimp and prime rib, room service whenever you want, and staff who caters to your every need.
There is cause for concern for class stratification. But trying to find it in those who can afford 3K for a weeks cruise because others can spend and get even more indulgences borders on the absurd
There is cause for concern for class stratification. But trying to find it in those who can afford 3K for a weeks cruise because others can spend and get even more indulgences borders on the absurd
1
Thanks for that link. The David Foster Wallace piece in Harper's on cruise ships reminded me of why 'vacationing' on a seagoing "luxury" hotel (with thousands of people packed in like the proverbial sardines) has never much appealed to me. A rare combination of claustrophobia, over-stimulation, and utter vacuity.
3
Thanks for the link! Even though written in 1996, the piece is still funny enough to keep me laughing out loud. Thoroughly enjoyed it.
3
I see storming the gate and off with their heads coming up soon to the ultra rich. History does repeat itself again and again.
2
This sheds light on the French Revolution.
7
Puh -lease. The French masses were starving. The cruise ship masses are indeed able to eat cake ( a dozen kinds at least) AND bread ....and shrimp,and lobster and prime rib. Plus the midnight buffet. After sunning themselves all day and being entertained at night ( from the middle of the theater instead of the front). IF that cause for revolution it's the rebels who should be ashamed of themselves. There are true problems of income inequality. This article depicts none of them.
9
And the Russian Revolution.
2
@AJ - on NCL, if you're not in the Haven, you get charged $20 for a high-end steak, 30 for a lobster and $40 for surf and turf. And the midnight buffet is a thing of the past on most cruise lines
2
I like rich people. They, work hard, employ a lot of people, pay a lot of taxes, give a lot of money to charity, set a good example for young people and greatly annoy the NY Times. I don’t know what the country would do without them.
14
"They work hard." Seriously? Their money makes money. If you want to see someone who works hard, watch a teacher or a social worker or an ER doc.
10
We have a system in America Rebecca called capitalism, where people work hard in lots of ways to make money. Most of us here like it.
3
You are probably technically correct. The fact is the wealth work SMARTER. Why shouldn't someone who can make millions on a single financial transaction do substantially better than teachers or plumbers?
1
Do the various diarrhea-causing microorganisms that seem so prevalent on cruise lines these days care which part of the ship they infect? There's no way I would pay to be anywhere on one of these floating extortion machines.
6
If I can have the mountains for hiking and for climbing while rich people go to cruise ships and to golf courses, that is alright with me!
8
Why would someone spend $30000 for a week or two cruise to be surrounded by the masses. The former Ceo of Norwegian says that the people they are marketing the Haven to want to be surrounded by people with similar charateristics. So why not just go on one of the high end cruise lines of which there are several. Could it be the type of high class people buying this product enjoy ostentatious displays of their wealth, well that is really low class if you ask me.
6
Agreed, the story is really about the newly semi-rich (think low end professional sports, hip hop artist, business owners from China or Russia), who wants to show off but can't afford the private jet or island. Now that's rich.
5
In the United States today, the top 1% of households -- Professor Saez informs us -- controls 42% of the nation's wealth.
Evidently economic inequalities were less harsh in the distant past. In 1688 the English "statistician" Gregory King estimated that some "five per cent of the population enjoyed a larger proportion of the national income than did all the lower classes (over fifty per cent) put together." [Keith Thomas, Religion and the Decline of Magic, p. 4].
Thus we have early modern England with 5% controlling some 50% of the country's wealth, while our 1% controls nearly as much.
It isn't rocket science to recognize that these levels of income inequality have been a powder-keg in the past. They are likely to be so again.
Evidently economic inequalities were less harsh in the distant past. In 1688 the English "statistician" Gregory King estimated that some "five per cent of the population enjoyed a larger proportion of the national income than did all the lower classes (over fifty per cent) put together." [Keith Thomas, Religion and the Decline of Magic, p. 4].
Thus we have early modern England with 5% controlling some 50% of the country's wealth, while our 1% controls nearly as much.
It isn't rocket science to recognize that these levels of income inequality have been a powder-keg in the past. They are likely to be so again.
9
But why should those with 42% of the wealth pay 62% of the taxes?
7
We "hiss" now, but I wonder how long before we get a little more than just sick of being treated like cattle. Income inequality continues unabated and, along with it, more misery for most of us. Will there be a time when we've simply had enough, when we refuse to be treated as such? It's happened before: one day, out of the segregation of the classes, some people emerge out of the chaos and take action. I think that's where we're headed, I don't see anyone stopping it, especially Hillary.
6
Marc, people can stop it by not buying the cheap-@zz tickets. They can pay more for better treatment or not go anywhere at all. Perhaps the cruise lines/airlines will try to entice their low-end passengers back with some incentives. It's all about supply-and-demand in our capitalist society.
4
Geez seriously. Having spent more time than I wanted to, because of various support staff jobs for NY non-profits, in the company of the dreadful rich, I sure as heck don't want them intruding on my leisure-time space. It*s a lot more fun without them.
But I did have one unforgettably glorious experience on a cruise ship--the SS France. Back in the *70s you could get a cheap--CHEAP--roundtrip deal--the ship to the UK and a flight back to NY--and those were the loveliest five days I ever spent in my life. I still have the menus--French reproductions of 18th-century manuscripts. The staff treated all of us beautifully. I still remember being tucked into a cozy wrap on one of those deckchairs by a lovely young man. The rest of my holiday was spent hitchhiking between youth hostels. And really. I had a lot more fun than the Chanel-gown crowd.
But I did have one unforgettably glorious experience on a cruise ship--the SS France. Back in the *70s you could get a cheap--CHEAP--roundtrip deal--the ship to the UK and a flight back to NY--and those were the loveliest five days I ever spent in my life. I still have the menus--French reproductions of 18th-century manuscripts. The staff treated all of us beautifully. I still remember being tucked into a cozy wrap on one of those deckchairs by a lovely young man. The rest of my holiday was spent hitchhiking between youth hostels. And really. I had a lot more fun than the Chanel-gown crowd.
13
So the Haven is basically a fancy section on a mass market giant floating vacation machine. The land-locked equivalent would be an extra luxurious floor in a Marriott or a Hilton. I'm sure the 1% can afford to stay (or float) somewhere much more exclusive than that!
8
There is no trickle down in the United States because this luxury spending is mostly for foreign goods..
1
My concern is not so much with the added amenities for the rich as it is for the shabby treatment of the rest, to the detriment of those empathetic, egalitarian values that may yet be held by the privileged classes of Homo sapiens.
7
We have seen this picture before in history. The powerful and connected take all or most the wealth and then turn up their noses at the poor masses and say something like: "Let them eat cake".
The result is historic and prologue...
The result is historic and prologue...
6
This article reminds me of senior year in high school when my wealthy friends were embarrassed they didn't get into an Ivy or Duke or Northwestern and had to settle for Univ. of Michigan (#29 U.S. News) and Georgetown (#21). Insecurities are so relative.
5
As a long time and frequent business traveler the only thing I can tell those who "want to go first class" is this...
First class on a plane only means you get a little more leg and seat room which can be nice on longer trips (3+ hrs) but other than that the plane is still just as delayed for you as it is for the guy back in the cattle car section.
Travel on a private business jet and you will have difficulty ever looking at 1st Class on a commercial airline as anything other than a human rights violation!
5 Stars hotels are great but in the end what it comes down to is this: Is the room clean, is the Bed somewhat comfortable, is the water hot in the morning when 500 other guests are all using it and is the hotel close to where you'll be going!
Other than that the difference between a Motel @$30 a night and a 5 Star at $1500+ a night is not a big as you think it should be...
After awhile all hotels/motels start to look the same...
A cruise ship is nothing more than a hotel that floats...
First class on a plane only means you get a little more leg and seat room which can be nice on longer trips (3+ hrs) but other than that the plane is still just as delayed for you as it is for the guy back in the cattle car section.
Travel on a private business jet and you will have difficulty ever looking at 1st Class on a commercial airline as anything other than a human rights violation!
5 Stars hotels are great but in the end what it comes down to is this: Is the room clean, is the Bed somewhat comfortable, is the water hot in the morning when 500 other guests are all using it and is the hotel close to where you'll be going!
Other than that the difference between a Motel @$30 a night and a 5 Star at $1500+ a night is not a big as you think it should be...
After awhile all hotels/motels start to look the same...
A cruise ship is nothing more than a hotel that floats...
11
Since when is a “money-based caste system“ something new? Same as it ever was.
4
They live off of our labor, commandeer our governments, hoard their superfluous wealth, make us fight their wars, and destroy the environment - except in their neighborhoods*.
Until we wrest their greedy, parasitic little hands from the levers of power, the future of the species looks bleak.
* http://powersource.post-gazette.com/powersource/latest-oil-and-gas/2016/...
Until we wrest their greedy, parasitic little hands from the levers of power, the future of the species looks bleak.
* http://powersource.post-gazette.com/powersource/latest-oil-and-gas/2016/...
10
And here I though Marx was dead. Keep on pontificating Karl.
2
So, yearning for meaningful democracy is "Marxism". Overcoming the stupidity of the indoctrinated American voter will be a formidable challenge.
This is what happens when the almighty buck, and dog eat dog syndrome is worshipped more than God, and the value of human life! This is when the rich guy is revered more than a school teacher who taught us something that has nurtured us, which we have retained the rest of our life, which has made us better people.
Greed and power is why all of the greatest societies throughout history have failed. The only question is when ours will end the same way. That appears to be happening sooner rather than later.
Greed and power is why all of the greatest societies throughout history have failed. The only question is when ours will end the same way. That appears to be happening sooner rather than later.
9
In capitalism, wealth is the scorecard. It's really that simple. In the same way that few of us will be good enough to play for the Yankees, even fewer will make it to the top. I, for one, know I don't have the ferocious nature it takes. Accept it.
1
people, societies and lives on the universal are all about capitalism's scoreboard. Current day capitalism is just a concept adopted by people's consensus. it is not a not an universal truth or in any of God's commandments (if you believe in God).
As Nietzsche had said, "All things are subject to interpretations. Any prevailing interpretation is a function of power, not truth."
As Nietzsche had said, "All things are subject to interpretations. Any prevailing interpretation is a function of power, not truth."
2
“That segment of the population wants to be surrounded by people with similar characteristics.”
Wow, talk about elitist snobs.
Wow, talk about elitist snobs.
10
That is nothing new. My question is why would anyone with that much money vacation on such an ugly floating behemoth.
6
Not unlike the West wanting to keep it's demographics near colonial-levels...
It isn't necessarily about 'elitist snobs'. Even people in the cheap seats like to be around those of similar bent, whatever that means in the circumstances. Some people like, or don't mind, loud voices, noise, music and chaotic activity (kids crashing around, jumping in the pool, splashing others). Is that a low class or a high class thing? Is it worth paying extra to be part of that? To avoid that?
Since the Times has branded this as "The Velvet Rope Economy," I'm sure there will be more articles in the future. But for this first article, I will say that anyone stupid enough to pay for a cruise deserves he gets, up to and including some vicious bacterial disease.
Let me also ask, when has there ever NOT been "an age of privilege"?
Why would someone think the tickets he bought on Travelocity were enough to launch a half billion dollar ship and pay for unlimited buffets?
Does the guy who bought the "cheap" apartment on the 14th floor of a high rise subsidize the guy in the penthouse or is it the other way around?
Let me also ask, when has there ever NOT been "an age of privilege"?
Why would someone think the tickets he bought on Travelocity were enough to launch a half billion dollar ship and pay for unlimited buffets?
Does the guy who bought the "cheap" apartment on the 14th floor of a high rise subsidize the guy in the penthouse or is it the other way around?
6
Ran into this in Disney a few years back..we reserved a room in on of the on site hotels. After seeing that the room was tiny, I upgraded the family to a suite. Somehow, this act (which I paid for, and wasn't cheap) got me a gold star in the Disney reservations computer. We got seating for everything everywhere. Conversations with others who didn't stay on site, or upgrade, revealed we lived a charmed existence in the Magic Kingdom.
Last year, I flew from LA to NY on a special sort of plane. It was a mass market carrier, but the first third of the plane was one seat per row first class. The second third of the plane was two seat per row Business. I was in the back, in about 70 seats, in steerage. We were called for a four hour (!) delay, due to weather in NY. After 10 minutes, we are advised by the Flight Crew that we are the last plane out, that a "commuter plane" dropped out of the queue.
I'm very sure that there were a few phone calls made and probably some money or other in kind tradeoffs to get that particular plane off the ground. The crew liked working those flights, I was told, as there were many fewer passengers overall for the crew.
Last year, I flew from LA to NY on a special sort of plane. It was a mass market carrier, but the first third of the plane was one seat per row first class. The second third of the plane was two seat per row Business. I was in the back, in about 70 seats, in steerage. We were called for a four hour (!) delay, due to weather in NY. After 10 minutes, we are advised by the Flight Crew that we are the last plane out, that a "commuter plane" dropped out of the queue.
I'm very sure that there were a few phone calls made and probably some money or other in kind tradeoffs to get that particular plane off the ground. The crew liked working those flights, I was told, as there were many fewer passengers overall for the crew.
6
Disparities in wealth may be significant if some people live in castles while the majority starve in gutters. You're comparing cabin levels on the Ramada Inn of cruise lines. The world is truly wretched when some people can take better vacations than others.
8
Personally, I am waiting for the Second American Revolution as an equalizer to eliminate such foolishness...
8
"When the masses overwhelmed the [elite] group in the Haven, they didn’t have the experience they were looking for.”
Lovely...
Sounds like the Titanic, 2016. Why not simply call the tourist class 'steerage'?
I've never been tempted to take a cruise and reading this article does not make me want to take one. Ugh...
Lovely...
Sounds like the Titanic, 2016. Why not simply call the tourist class 'steerage'?
I've never been tempted to take a cruise and reading this article does not make me want to take one. Ugh...
9
I wouldn't be worried about the luxury but I would be worried about access to lifeboats.
4
What? The poor don't have vast choices of canned meat and tobacco? The injustice of it all. I agree with the progressives. Let's destroy Walmart's business model cause they aren't giving the the lower class enough of the choices they really need!!! Viva Obama!!!
3
This issue seems most acute in areas with finite resources. For example, there are only so many seats in a Broadway theater; if they can be filled by the 1% at exorbitant prices, theaters don’t need the rest of us. As I see it, this problem will only be exacerbated as our population increases and that 1% takes up a larger percent of things finite.
6
You make it sound like poverty for middle income people is just destiny, but it's not. I've never understood the draw of luxury (definition: throwing away money, especially for middle income people. I think it's cultural to some extent and the east coast is steeped in that culture. If you don't like crowds, don't go on cruises. Only while I was paying for my kids college did I every spend more than half my income before taxes and as a result, despite never making all that much, we've got plenty for retirement. I can throw away money if I wanted to, but it still has no appeal.
11
Having lived in both places I have to say that the Western model is to spend a ton of money on things that are purposely un-flashy and connote "goodness..." Soccer moms wearing 350 dollar hiking boots to the mall in Redmond, etc. People spend tons of money on a kayak that they use once a year (and they can easily rent). The amount spent is the same, it's just on different things.
2
“If I’m in the back of the plane, I want to hiss at the people in first class,” said Mr. Nalebuff, who has advised many Fortune 100 companies. “If I’m up front, I cringe as people walk by.”
I'm a bit more ambivalent in this regard, but as I walk through first class on the way to my cheap seat in the back, if it happens that I make eye contact with a first-class passenger (rare), I offer a greeting and say, "Thank you for subsidizing my ticket today". My comment speaks to the economic divide in a polite way and is heard by many of the first-class passengers (and I'm not being entirely insincere). I have yet to hear, "You're welcome", while some of the looks I have gotten are priceless.
I'm a bit more ambivalent in this regard, but as I walk through first class on the way to my cheap seat in the back, if it happens that I make eye contact with a first-class passenger (rare), I offer a greeting and say, "Thank you for subsidizing my ticket today". My comment speaks to the economic divide in a polite way and is heard by many of the first-class passengers (and I'm not being entirely insincere). I have yet to hear, "You're welcome", while some of the looks I have gotten are priceless.
4
My husband travels frequently on business. He creates many jobs. Works 80 + hour weeks and when he can he converts his miles into a first class seat so he can be more comfortable and often he is doing work while he flies along. Why is that so bad? He doesn't sit there to flaunt his status, wealth or anything else. Don't judge people you do not know.
10
It's not so bad at all. He is willing to pay for a better seat. Maybe he is subsidizing WJG's seat, but so what? WJG is not willing to pay extra to be treated well. He will sit hunched over in a ball with no room in the overhead compartment for his carry-on, no place to put his legs except in his neighbor's lap, and have no refreshments of any kind. If he thinks that is a bargain, then our capitalist system is working. I'll pay the extra. You're welcome.
2
You might consider being a bit introspective and ponder your need to speak to a complete stranger in an obviously hostile manner because that person views the comfort/price tradeoff differently than you do. The looks you have gotten are priceless. Really? Shocking. Do you also make sarcastic remarks in hotel elevators to guests who you noticed at check-in booked a suite while you booked a standard room?
4
The bow of the Titanic is still the Titanic.
6
I wonder if those who can pay for The Haven and other luxury cruises are immune from those horrendous stomach viruses that sweep through ships? Do the ship's employees clean the high-price rooms a little more efficiently than they do for those in cheaper quarters?
5
they use extra special cleaning fluids
service is their business, after all
service is their business, after all
1
Safe housing, health care, food, air quality and drinking water have a class system in the US. Cruise ships and theme parks are the least of our problems.
11
The article repeatedly mentions the physical separation of the classes on the Titanic as if that was a thing of the past. But that's exactly the situation the article describes on cruise ships today. The ultra-wealthy need to understand the current trend in wealth disparity is unsustainable and may not end well, for any of us, including them.
5
Yes, but... those wealthy passengers may not want to be on those ships at all. If the cruise lines provide incentives for silly amounts of money, they are promoting their product and getting paying customers. It's a business thing. If I pay my $3,000 for a stateroom and get treated like trash, that's my fault. I wouldn't do it again. If I pay $3,000 for that stateroom and have a wonderful time, who cares if someone spent more for an 'exclusive' experience? It's no skin off my nose.
1
So if you pay more, you get more. Thank you New York Times for this startling scoop.
9
Why wouldn't you just have your own yacht if you were super rich? Thats bordering on the pathological. Let's hope the pendulum swings back in the other direction soon.
2
We are free to choose how we spend our money. And much of that is based on how we were brought up. Which in turn is how our parents were brought up, ect, etc. Personally I could afford to carry loans to drive a Porsche, an expensive house, etc.
But I was brought up understanding that I am in control of my life. And as soon as one starts taking on debt you slowly loose control of that. The people that whine the most of those that made bad decisions. As is becoming more typical these days, the common reply is the made me do it. The common mantra from liberals, who accept no responsibility for their actions and blame everyone else for their problems.
But I was brought up understanding that I am in control of my life. And as soon as one starts taking on debt you slowly loose control of that. The people that whine the most of those that made bad decisions. As is becoming more typical these days, the common reply is the made me do it. The common mantra from liberals, who accept no responsibility for their actions and blame everyone else for their problems.
3