Anyone who has lost patience with the books should listen to them on Audible. they take on a new life read by Roy Dotrice.
Has this article been revised? I seem to recall reading about GoT in the Times last week and in it, Brienne is linked with Arya, not Sansa Stark. It was such a glaring error, I meant to comment but figured I'd get back to doing that or there would be an accompanying edit later on. Now the original wording is not in the article. What happened?
An interesting article that explores one of the most talked about issues in many fandoms: the adaptation of book to screen. I object, however, to the author's praise of Ron Moore's adaptation of Outlander. While the "liberties" he and his team took with the narrative bother me not at all, the enormous liberty Moore took with the lead character of Jamie Fraser, does. Jamie plays second fiddle to his wife in the series, and that is too great a change for many book fans since his humor and masculinity, stripped away by the scripts, are the main reason why they love the books. The groundswell of complaint about this change to Jamie's character is growing, and even Gabaldon has commented about it in her discussion forum, claiming that Jamie will "evolve." Eighteen episodes in, it may be bit late for that evolution, and without it, the "spirit" of Outlander is gone.
3
Love to see those complaints about Jaimie's character on Outlander--especially by Gabaldon who seems to be onboard with the scripts.
ga
ga
Great article man.
1
Great story. Too much gore. Jon Snow dead? Say it ain't so.
We have been waiting for books six and seven for the past two years. I've begun to lose interest in the literature and will, if they ever do come out, go to the library to obtain them rather than purchase them. Thanks saving me the money Georgie.
1
but will there be as much violence and gratuitous nudity as in previous seasons?
2
Let us hope so.
5
the characters and some of the story lines, and potential were great in the book, but otherwise, the endless genealogies and descriptions of fantasy food were bleeping maddening, the TV series, plods far less than the books, there is less seriously boring tangential forays and there is a sharper focus on things that are far more important and will clearly outrun and overcome Martin's predilections. The fact that winter is really coming and the ice monsters are nigh is great, there was this constant teasing, endless, futile build up, and now that the Dragon queen and Tyrion are in one place, yay!
2
Solo shooting first isn't "canon"; it is vital to the type of story being told. Solo has to be presented as "my neck or your neck? my neck, first and foremost". Without that being the definitive behavior of the character, the rest of his behavior makes no sense and his return isn't a violation (and the reason for the return is no big deal). Lucas's edits show he didn't understand the story he was telling (and he ripped off from other movies without understanding). And that becomes obvious when Lucas fails to cut the scene immediately after the bounty hunter is killed; instead solo still stares down the bar patrons. Why? No need to do that if solo acted in self-defense. When solo shoots second, he's a buffoon; a doofus who lucked out because a bounty hunter can't hit a two foot wide target three feet from him.
6
I have read the books. I haven't seen the whole show, just the first season, but from everything you're saying (and everything I've read) the show deviated significantly from the books some time ago.
For instance: Ramsay Bolton does not marry Sansa Stark at all in the books, let alone rape her. He marries Jeyne Poole, a friend of Sansa's, who has been dressed up to look like, and presented as Arya Stark.
For instance: Daenerys is not raped on her wedding night, in the book. She is married against her will, it is true, but is not forced to have sex by her husband.
For instance: Ramsay Bolton does not marry Sansa Stark at all in the books, let alone rape her. He marries Jeyne Poole, a friend of Sansa's, who has been dressed up to look like, and presented as Arya Stark.
For instance: Daenerys is not raped on her wedding night, in the book. She is married against her will, it is true, but is not forced to have sex by her husband.
7
I was an avid fan of the show for the first few seasons. However, the writer's penchant for blood gore and death soon became boring. How much violence are viewers expected to tolerate. Character development took a back seat to simple shock for shock's sake. I haven't watched the last season and I won't be watching the future ones. Keep the gore and depravity off my television.
5
Biblical literalists have long struggled with the startling differences of perspective and detail of the gospel according to John and the other three gospel books--let alone all the alternative gospels that were suppressed by what became the orthodox church. They've tried to ignore the obvious contradictions between rival narratives of the creation story in the book of Genesis. There are also Game of Thrones literalists, Harry Potter literalists, Middle Earth literalists, etc. But perhaps the re-imaging of epic fantasy novels as cinematic series that vary from their literary origins is liberating a new generation of "oralists," who know that good stories--even true stories--need not have only one canonical version.
15
I look at the books - even the bloated A Dance with Dragons - as canon and the show as fanfic, albeit fanfic written by insiders. I prefer the books for many reasons and they're where my deepest emotional investment lies, but I'm happy to watch the show. It's gorgeous to look at, and I know at least some upcoming plot points will match up to the books in some way, so the guessing game will be fun. Plus, I look forward to learning - before I'm so old I don't even remember the players - whether my guess (which is pretty much every careful reader's guess, as far as I can tell) as to Jon Snow's true parentage is correct.
4
Perhaps its a multiverse thing; the catch up was when the two worlds' paths finally separated.
Me, I'm going to wait for the books to complete - that's the world I prefer. But I'll enjoy the TV world after that.
Me, I'm going to wait for the books to complete - that's the world I prefer. But I'll enjoy the TV world after that.
"But the early episodes of “Thrones” were burdened with the books’ stature and vast story.'
Nonsense. The early episodes were burdened by some incredibly bad dialogue. Great source material and an excellent cast kept me watching, but the poor adaptation and the puerile pornography that went way beyond the admittedly graphic books nearly ended it for me.
But Peter Dinklage (who I first saw in the cinema in the Station Agent) is just too good. And the writing did get better, though nowhere on the level of The Wire or Breaking Bad.
Nonsense. The early episodes were burdened by some incredibly bad dialogue. Great source material and an excellent cast kept me watching, but the poor adaptation and the puerile pornography that went way beyond the admittedly graphic books nearly ended it for me.
But Peter Dinklage (who I first saw in the cinema in the Station Agent) is just too good. And the writing did get better, though nowhere on the level of The Wire or Breaking Bad.
11
I'm like most SF/fantasy fans. I couldn't finish book 4 and gave up on the series. Hopefully the TV show will find some legs, because the later books are terrible.
9
The books are really brilliant. To those saying the books dragged or lost control: That's like saying War & Peace is better as a miniseries with tons of bloody battle scenes, Natasha getting raped & then Andre marrying her. (OK Tolstoy is Tolstoy, not saying GRRM is Tolstoy.)
The books don't lose control of plotline at all. If you read it carefully, you see that. There are tons of loose threads tied up, many subtle hints, carefully laid layers & layers particularly as we get to the slower paced 4 and 5.
The 4th & 5th books became more ambitious. The only sections i think could have been condensed are Tyrion's (I tire of reading how depressed he is) & the Brienne chapters, as she functions mostly as a means by which we the reader can see the destruction great lords wreak on the many. Also Dany, as it's tiring to see her poor choices. But all these are leaders who have lost their way badly.
The book examines--What is a leader? What does it mean to be one? What is the good of the whole? What is identity? How does private identity relate to state identity?
Martin really explores genre assumptions, sexist assumptions, & basically roles we have in our society, unspoken & spoken, & what happens if you try to break out.
The books are entirely different from the series, because the series is merely about the game of thrones; it's much more like a BBC I-Claudius w/zombies.
I don't worry that the series goes ahead of the book; I'm not interested in the TV series anymore.
The books don't lose control of plotline at all. If you read it carefully, you see that. There are tons of loose threads tied up, many subtle hints, carefully laid layers & layers particularly as we get to the slower paced 4 and 5.
The 4th & 5th books became more ambitious. The only sections i think could have been condensed are Tyrion's (I tire of reading how depressed he is) & the Brienne chapters, as she functions mostly as a means by which we the reader can see the destruction great lords wreak on the many. Also Dany, as it's tiring to see her poor choices. But all these are leaders who have lost their way badly.
The book examines--What is a leader? What does it mean to be one? What is the good of the whole? What is identity? How does private identity relate to state identity?
Martin really explores genre assumptions, sexist assumptions, & basically roles we have in our society, unspoken & spoken, & what happens if you try to break out.
The books are entirely different from the series, because the series is merely about the game of thrones; it's much more like a BBC I-Claudius w/zombies.
I don't worry that the series goes ahead of the book; I'm not interested in the TV series anymore.
17
Wonderful review, thanks!
4
dcl, you write a fine commentary!
Years ago I read, I think, the first three books; then I set the series aside till it was finished, because I kept having to go back and reread to refresh my memory, it was so long between books.
The joke was on me: obviously, I haven't yet picked them up again! But I will try again if the series is ever finished.
Meanwhile, I love the TV series (aside from the grisliest torture and laughably gratuitous sex scenes), and I also love your description: "a BBC I-Claudius w/zombies" -- brilliant! As it happens, I recently watched "I, Claudius" again (I own the set) and I am a devotee of "The Walking Dead." So, GOT works for me!
Years ago I read, I think, the first three books; then I set the series aside till it was finished, because I kept having to go back and reread to refresh my memory, it was so long between books.
The joke was on me: obviously, I haven't yet picked them up again! But I will try again if the series is ever finished.
Meanwhile, I love the TV series (aside from the grisliest torture and laughably gratuitous sex scenes), and I also love your description: "a BBC I-Claudius w/zombies" -- brilliant! As it happens, I recently watched "I, Claudius" again (I own the set) and I am a devotee of "The Walking Dead." So, GOT works for me!
5
Bloody typical. Same hubris that consumed the directors of the Lord of the Rings and True Blood. They think they can do it better and get lost in believing that good directing is the same as writing a great story.
6
"They think they can do it better"
Um, you do know that they've run out of source material, right?
Um, you do know that they've run out of source material, right?
2
No, but good directing is also important for a movie to be more than an illustrated version of the book. It is why the third Harry Potter may be the best movie of the series (it is for me), and why personally I did not like the Watchmen movie at all (recreating exact shot remakes of the source comic was not interesting to me). I love the LOTR books, but also love the movies in their own right, with some of the changes working very well in the movies (not all, mind you). If they are exactly the same, why even have a movie? Does not always work of course, I thought the Hobbit movies were a bloated mess that really were too disconnected from the book.
But imagine how long the GoT series would have to be if it was entirely faithful to the books. It would never get made. I prefer having a really good TV show and also being able to enjoy the books. Plus we wouldn't have a show for who knows how many years (since in your view the books would have to be finished before a TV series could even be made)
But imagine how long the GoT series would have to be if it was entirely faithful to the books. It would never get made. I prefer having a really good TV show and also being able to enjoy the books. Plus we wouldn't have a show for who knows how many years (since in your view the books would have to be finished before a TV series could even be made)
2
Jon Snow has "warged" into his wolf before his body died.
9
It seems to me that being an author consists of several key elements. You write a good, engrossing story, you make your reader care about the characters that you've imagined, and then you give that story an ending. GRRM can not seem to finish his story. Book 5 was one of the greatest slogs I've ever read. He's been writing this story for 20 years. If it wasn't for HBO, we might never know what happens to these characters that we've grown to love, and I for one, am glad that they are moving the story along without him.
21
I hope that when/if Martin finishes the books, we will get a new more faithful telling for the screen. The TV shows has always been apart from the books in feeling due to the need to make most of the child characters older. The teenage boy Jon Snow of the books is very different from the 20-something man of the TV series, even if their lines are identical (which they are not, of course). My fantasy is for an animated TV show or movie series that is true to the books and aimed at adults. Calling Peter Jackson...
3
Considering what a hack and slash he did on the trilogy, and the even worse mess he made of The Hobbit, I would be calling Peter Jackson any number of things, but calling him to do a version of Fire and Ice is the last one.
2
The first three Harry Potters were highly entertaining. The remainder were tedious. as JKR tried to prove her "serious writer" creds by killing off popular characters. The ending was flat.
Game of Thrones would have made a perfectly good trilogy. We suspect that Martin so resented having been talked into a seven-part series that he is punishing his readers in much the same way.
Now the TV series has lasted longer than the Winter of which Ned Stark warned which, come to speak of it, has probably not yet arrived. Wasn't preparing for winter supposed to be the whole point?
Anyway I'm done with it.
Game of Thrones would have made a perfectly good trilogy. We suspect that Martin so resented having been talked into a seven-part series that he is punishing his readers in much the same way.
Now the TV series has lasted longer than the Winter of which Ned Stark warned which, come to speak of it, has probably not yet arrived. Wasn't preparing for winter supposed to be the whole point?
Anyway I'm done with it.
4
The Potter books got better and better. Snape? Come on! Find me another Young Adult story that hits with a harder wallop than Snape's revelation. I'm not saying find me a book that's as good. I'm saying find one that's better.
5
I stared watching the HBO series and then read the books. I'm a fan of both, even books 4 and 5. I'm assuming that Martin has provided an outline of where the stories are going to the showrunners.
I most enjoy the female characters, and for all the talk of rape and nudity I find the female characters extremely deep, multifaceted and interesting. I'm especially fond of Arya and Sansa and I am expecting Sansa to come into her own this season and recover from all the double dealing by Littlefinger and the mistreatment by the Boltons. I expect her to be the Queen of the North before long. As for Arya, I expect her to continue her training and to play an important role in bumping off a few more power brokers to clear the way for....
Will it be Dany and her Dragons, or Tyrion or Queen Margery?
Not sure what will happen with the whitewalkers, but expect the dragons to address them, at least in part.
I most enjoy the female characters, and for all the talk of rape and nudity I find the female characters extremely deep, multifaceted and interesting. I'm especially fond of Arya and Sansa and I am expecting Sansa to come into her own this season and recover from all the double dealing by Littlefinger and the mistreatment by the Boltons. I expect her to be the Queen of the North before long. As for Arya, I expect her to continue her training and to play an important role in bumping off a few more power brokers to clear the way for....
Will it be Dany and her Dragons, or Tyrion or Queen Margery?
Not sure what will happen with the whitewalkers, but expect the dragons to address them, at least in part.
7
So glad to hear you read, and enjoyed, the books AFTER watching the series because I always prefer books and have been tempted. Especially after what dcl of NJ (above) wrote, I wonder if the books would make the series look like a Cliff Note. Anyway, I think I'll give them a try. Thanks!
2
I tried the first book because of the TV show. I found it dreadful: badly written and very much in need of an editor or three. So, I count myself lucky as I will have no concern about the show's faithfulness to the books.
One of my hopes for the show is that they end Martin's apparent need to kill off anyone viewers/readers might like. It is a device that works only when used sparingly, in my opinion. Of course, like many others, I could do with less gratuitous sexual violence and general demeaning of women. The excuse that this is the way things were in the Middle Ages is a bit weak in a story that includes dragons.
One of my hopes for the show is that they end Martin's apparent need to kill off anyone viewers/readers might like. It is a device that works only when used sparingly, in my opinion. Of course, like many others, I could do with less gratuitous sexual violence and general demeaning of women. The excuse that this is the way things were in the Middle Ages is a bit weak in a story that includes dragons.
17
Yes, the inclusion of the Dragon fantasy should negate any efforts to evince a realistic portrayal of the "good ole days" in which the roles of women and men were very clearly defined. Even when discussing a TV show, no comments section to the NY Times would be complete without someone interjecting the over-feminized, progressive sensibilities that have poisoned modern society.
5
...or perhaps with the unfortunate prevalence of sexual harassment and assault of women in real life, many of us don't find the unrelenting abuse and rape of women in these series as entertainment?
7
I have no interest i reading the books. It frees me up to love the show for exactly what it is and how it works and to revel in some really fine acting without thinking: "This should have been like that in the book."
I disagree about season 5; I didn't find it draggy or slow at all. Every plot development seemed necessary and integral, and some were the best the show has proffered: Arya and the Faceless God, Varys and Tyrion on the run and in Meereen, Jon Snow becoming Commander. More than this, the actors were truly in their parts, even evolving--a rare trait for television characters (let alone those jumping from the pages of fantasy).
I disagree about season 5; I didn't find it draggy or slow at all. Every plot development seemed necessary and integral, and some were the best the show has proffered: Arya and the Faceless God, Varys and Tyrion on the run and in Meereen, Jon Snow becoming Commander. More than this, the actors were truly in their parts, even evolving--a rare trait for television characters (let alone those jumping from the pages of fantasy).
11
This is one of those instances where the TV series is vastly outshining the books.
Mr Martin is actually lucky since it's the best advertisement his dull books could ever get.
Mr Martin is actually lucky since it's the best advertisement his dull books could ever get.
7
Even though the show delights in shocking viewers, I think that it's obvious that Jon Snow and Khaleesi will unite. It's the only way to tie the whole show together.
4
I think they might share the same mother.
Jon Snows mother was Ned Starks sister, and his father was Rahgon (?) Targergaren the mad kings son. Denerais Targarian was the mad kings daughter, sister to Rahgon. So I guess Jon and Daenaris are cousins. I know the spelling of the names are way off. Sorry
Read a blog called the "Mereenese Blot" and maybe all you haters who think A Dance with Dragons was "boring" will wake up and see what George was actually trying to accomplish with one of the most important books of the series. There is a lot going on, and if you read all the books in succession, you probably missed some of the underlying themes. The essays in the "Meerenses Blot" help put what matters into focus for you. Read it again as I did and I maybe it will be your favorite of the series. The HBO show is not ASOIAF and shouldn't even be mentioned in the same breath as a Game of Thrones. Especially after the last terrible season that completely changed the story.
Completely agree. The show's divergence from the books drives my wife nuts, but I really like it. The more the better. I think the show's editors have done a great job with the series, keeping it tighter and more cohesive, while capturing what Martin is after. Remains to be seen whether the new season will hold up, but I'm optimistic and happy about the divergence. We get to read the books and watch the series - which is no longer using the books as a screenplay.
2
Love the books. G.R.R. has surpassed even J.R.R. in creating an entire world. Unlike Tolkin's world, however, there is no good or evil- merely people pursuing their own interests, some with a modicum of morality, others with total brutality.
I began to enjoy the series once it started to diverge from the books. In so doing, the show runners run the risk of Holywoodizing the story. Things should not happen just for editorial convenience or because it presents a good visual. The art of Game of Thrones is the story, and if the show runners detract from that there is no reason left to watch.
I began to enjoy the series once it started to diverge from the books. In so doing, the show runners run the risk of Holywoodizing the story. Things should not happen just for editorial convenience or because it presents a good visual. The art of Game of Thrones is the story, and if the show runners detract from that there is no reason left to watch.
1
In six years, Martin couldn't manage to finish the next book? I guess he was too busy being a celebrity and publishing other stuff. On the other hand, at least we won't know the ending until the showrunners decide on it.
4
I assume Martin has outline the remainder of the stories and the conclusion for the showrunners. While the series moves past the books, I assume it is still following his basic storyline.
GOT is a dark and depressing journey through the least appealing parts of the human psyche. Once the novelty has worn off it's nothing but an unrelieved slog through murder, mayhem and sexual violence, produced for the teen-aged Americans who are the holy grail of demographics.
11
As GOT the series outpaces SOIAF the novels, the issue that troubles me is how Martin can possibly finish the novels without being influenced or even steered by the plot of series. Does he, can he, isolate himself from the series so as to complete his saga true to his own original vision? Or does he write the final sections of his saga so as to accommodate what has already transpired on air? Is he under any contractual obligations to do just that? Consider the possibility of one character finally winning the Iron Throne on the series, while in the climactic novel a completely different character finally climbs atop those melted swords. How closely do Martin and Benioff and Weiss confer? Is Martin obligated to share drafts of the unfinished novel so that his story remains faithfully represented on screen? This seems to be an unprecedented situation, and as an admirer of both the novels and the HBO series, I am really curious as to how this will play out.
I assume, and I think maybe even read, that Martin has outline the rest of the storyline for the showrunners.
I decided to re-watch the first two seasons to prepare for the upcoming launch - I had forgotten how really good Season 1 was - what happened to the clever writing in subsequent seasons?
2
I don't have any issues with two story lines for GOT.
That being said, I wish my fellow and former New Jersey boy a supernova of inspiration to spur his writing. And when the series concludes sadly lament its ending.
That being said, I wish my fellow and former New Jersey boy a supernova of inspiration to spur his writing. And when the series concludes sadly lament its ending.
1
Much like Aesop's fables, the unconscious appeal of Game of Thrones is its unmasking of the craven dynamics of modern politics in a form that people not only can tolerate, but positively adore.
The themes of greed, lust for power, insensitivity to the needs of the poor, and violence that mark this "modern" age are too much for us to bear when we are forced to confront them on a daily basis. Yet, when put forward as a fictional story of an age in another place at another time, they not only cease to repel, they positively attract.
I'm not suggesting that The High Sparrow is a Doppelganger of Ted Cruz, or that Cersei Lannister is a representation of Hillary Clinton, yet, if one stops to consider the parallels there is a certain symmetry that draws us in and holds our attention.
Is Daenerys Targaryen the reflection of Bernie Sanders? Are her dragons a representation of the young people turning out in droves to support him? Is the Iron Bank of Bravos a reflection of Goldman Sachs?
I leave these questions for you to decide. After all, Game of Thrones is "only" fiction, but a fiction to reflects back to us the reality we see all around us but refuse to acknowledge as such because it is simply too painful to do so.
The themes of greed, lust for power, insensitivity to the needs of the poor, and violence that mark this "modern" age are too much for us to bear when we are forced to confront them on a daily basis. Yet, when put forward as a fictional story of an age in another place at another time, they not only cease to repel, they positively attract.
I'm not suggesting that The High Sparrow is a Doppelganger of Ted Cruz, or that Cersei Lannister is a representation of Hillary Clinton, yet, if one stops to consider the parallels there is a certain symmetry that draws us in and holds our attention.
Is Daenerys Targaryen the reflection of Bernie Sanders? Are her dragons a representation of the young people turning out in droves to support him? Is the Iron Bank of Bravos a reflection of Goldman Sachs?
I leave these questions for you to decide. After all, Game of Thrones is "only" fiction, but a fiction to reflects back to us the reality we see all around us but refuse to acknowledge as such because it is simply too painful to do so.
5
No wonder...bible belt indeed. just stop.
1
Well, I had to content myself with Martin's new book, "A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms", a few months ago. It's a prequel that takes place a 100 years before the people and actions of Song of Ice and Fire.
I haven't seen GOT Season 5. I tend to binge watch once the season is over.
I haven't seen GOT Season 5. I tend to binge watch once the season is over.
2
The series veered off course very badly last season, & lost this viewer. I love the intricate books. With apologies to TV fans, to me the TV version, while well done in the beginning, became just too stupid even on its own terms. It reminded me of 2 little boys who walk up to a chess master's board; they see the pretty pieces & throw them, eat them, invent rules--& then in the end, trap the king & shout 'checkmate!' believing that they are playing just as good a game as the chess master.
That is how this series has become to me. The show writers' 'moves' frequently make no sense b/c they have no understanding of the game. To use one example among very many, in the TV version, Sansa marries Ramsay Bolton. This makes zero sense in this world: Sansa is already married, for starters. Also, what about the Lannisters? They'd attack, as a) this is a threat from up north, & b) they've been searching for Sansa, who is suspected of murdering Joffrey. Also Littlefinger is supposed to be a brilliant strategist but he just walks away.
But the writers just want to have their toy Sansa in her rape scenes that were meant for another character (for a different purpose) & want to glory in S & M scenes even as it makes zero sense for Sansa's character arc. So who cares! This is just*one* example.
GRRM is brilliant. Those who are complaining about his books, well, I feel for you. And of course they take a while to write; they are 700-1000 pages long, & extremely complex. I'll wait.
That is how this series has become to me. The show writers' 'moves' frequently make no sense b/c they have no understanding of the game. To use one example among very many, in the TV version, Sansa marries Ramsay Bolton. This makes zero sense in this world: Sansa is already married, for starters. Also, what about the Lannisters? They'd attack, as a) this is a threat from up north, & b) they've been searching for Sansa, who is suspected of murdering Joffrey. Also Littlefinger is supposed to be a brilliant strategist but he just walks away.
But the writers just want to have their toy Sansa in her rape scenes that were meant for another character (for a different purpose) & want to glory in S & M scenes even as it makes zero sense for Sansa's character arc. So who cares! This is just*one* example.
GRRM is brilliant. Those who are complaining about his books, well, I feel for you. And of course they take a while to write; they are 700-1000 pages long, & extremely complex. I'll wait.
5
Excellent points. It's really sad what happens to great source material when it's handed to the likes of Benioff and Weiss. They gleefully throw away story arcs and plot lines that might be too difficult to translate to TV. They then write new ones that make little coherent sense and don't connect the story's themes. However, they never miss an opportunity for a whorehouse scene, orgy scene or rape scene. Why did they take such careful delight in the long, protracted torturing of Theon Greyjoy, with the addition of a castration that was not in the book? And what possessed them to burn a little girl alive? The violence and sexuality of the novels was tough to read at times, perhaps, but fit the world that GRRM created and his characters. Oh well, I guess it's not porn, it's HBO.
8
I prefer the Sansa arc in the HBO series. In the book she is stuck in the Eyrie, I think she takes this arc and becomes Queen of the North. She overcomes the brutality, the Boltons are ejected. the Starks get Winterfell back. Makes perfect sense for t.v. The Lannisters are too busy worrying about the Sparrow and his gathering armies to care too much about Sansa reappearing up north.
3
I read the books; I've watched the show. This piece is 'rationalization' and this whole affair has been very confusing. I will watch HBO's take; I will NOT read the end ... The first book was pretty good, but the rest ... Meh, the TV show is better ...
2
Glad the series is taking a different direction then the books. If Martin had finished the series, it might be up there with ones like Dune. It became very clear though, that by the last book he had lost control of the plotline. He developed a very odd habit of killing off his most likable characters. He also splintered the storyline so much that I don't believe he can ever figure out a way to bring it back together. I don't think it's that much writers block. He simply finds much easier to sit around at Comicon
9
I'm seriously disappointed that the readers, who got Game of Thrones to its current place as a hit series, are being left behind. I had thoughts of watching the series, but don't care to subscribe to HBO, and am turned off that the plots have split off. I can't even really discuss the storyline with friends who have only watched the shows.
Now I wonder if there's going to be any point in buying further GRRM novels. When the HBO series is done, little of the story will be left for the reader to discover. Unless the two stories become entirely divergent, spoilers will pretty much ruin it for readers.
I know GRRM originally wanted a screenplay, but that's not what he started with, and he should acknowledge the base that got him where he is.
Now I wonder if there's going to be any point in buying further GRRM novels. When the HBO series is done, little of the story will be left for the reader to discover. Unless the two stories become entirely divergent, spoilers will pretty much ruin it for readers.
I know GRRM originally wanted a screenplay, but that's not what he started with, and he should acknowledge the base that got him where he is.
1
So there should not be a show for what, 10 years? (Or however long it takes to finish the books?
The series led me to the books. I'm a big reader (finished all of Diana Gabaldon's Outlander books, each one close to a thousand pages in paperback) in a matter of weeks. GRRM? Not so much. The first book of the series was so poorly written that I put it down when I was somewhere in the middle of it, and never went back. Not planning on going back to it, either. This is a rare case of the TV show being better than the books.
15
I also find Martin to be an embarrassingly ordinary prose stylist whom I cannot read for more than a few pages without embarrassing myself.
I would even say the show is about 50% riveting and 50% execrably, painfully godawful, fluctuating back and forth from scene to scene in each episode.
And yet: the story is undeniably engrossing. Great characters, engrossing plots, fantastic worldview, beautiful medievalism that somehow speaks to the present moment with poetic authority (even if the prose is bad). The ultimate presentation for me actually turns out to be endless hours of GRR Martin-based meta-analyses online. Highly recommended you-tubers: Radio Westeros; Westeros History. Those two are the best I've found, and there are many more in an endless, interwoven network of genial fanatics... great stuff.
I would even say the show is about 50% riveting and 50% execrably, painfully godawful, fluctuating back and forth from scene to scene in each episode.
And yet: the story is undeniably engrossing. Great characters, engrossing plots, fantastic worldview, beautiful medievalism that somehow speaks to the present moment with poetic authority (even if the prose is bad). The ultimate presentation for me actually turns out to be endless hours of GRR Martin-based meta-analyses online. Highly recommended you-tubers: Radio Westeros; Westeros History. Those two are the best I've found, and there are many more in an endless, interwoven network of genial fanatics... great stuff.
3
You are completely wrong on so many levels that I am not even going to shame you further. The novels are 100000x better than the watered down, show that exists mostly for shock value and as a cash cow for Martin and the producers. This is definitely NOT a case where the show is better than the books.
James Joyce he is not but there are great writers and there are great story tellers. GRRM's prose may leave a bit to be desired but he certainly weaves an intriguing tale. The books are far more rich in story than the series which I also enjoy very much but really only hits the highlights of the saga. You are missing out on more than half of the story.
2
George R.R. Martin has had plenty of time to write succeeding novels and has, most probably, been in the grips of an abundance of money and writer's block. I'm thankful that the storyline will continue regardless of what direction it heads. The author has every right to write the next novel and push his characters in whatever direction he chooses.
Meanwhile, GOT remains our family's most anticipated show of any season.
Meanwhile, GOT remains our family's most anticipated show of any season.
36
I was enthralled with the books and HBO seasons 1 through 3. As GRRM's contributions to the HBO version began to decline, the series became more of a ponderous spectacle of knights and nude ladies. Unfortunately, Mr. Martin has permanent writer's block, so all we are left with is the ersatz TV version. Sorry, I'm not watching it.
10
So? Then why comment? Just saying.
This show has been in decline as it diverges further away from the books, and with the notable exception of Hardhome, it shows:
-Sansa Stark has been constantly victimized. Her arc primarily revolves around her gaining agency, and the show denies her that, especially with the disastrous Bolton affair. Any political savvy she had or was gaining in the books is totally gone.
-Melisandre is reduced to nothing more than a total fanatic who strips at every turn.
-The entire Dorne storyline, as well as the characterization of the Martells, are an utter joke. The Martells in the books are the most progressive of the Great Houses: they, in stark contrast to the rest of Westeros, give fair treatment towards women and illegitimate children. In the show? Sex crazed caricatures. Where is Arianne Martell? Why should the Sand Snakes seek vengeance against Myrcella, an innocent, when in the novels it is the exact opposite, and logically so?
-Is Gendry still rowing out in the middle of nowhere?
-The show has resorted to cheap shock value: Sansa and Cersei's rapes, the sacrifice of Shireen.
-Sansa Stark has been constantly victimized. Her arc primarily revolves around her gaining agency, and the show denies her that, especially with the disastrous Bolton affair. Any political savvy she had or was gaining in the books is totally gone.
-Melisandre is reduced to nothing more than a total fanatic who strips at every turn.
-The entire Dorne storyline, as well as the characterization of the Martells, are an utter joke. The Martells in the books are the most progressive of the Great Houses: they, in stark contrast to the rest of Westeros, give fair treatment towards women and illegitimate children. In the show? Sex crazed caricatures. Where is Arianne Martell? Why should the Sand Snakes seek vengeance against Myrcella, an innocent, when in the novels it is the exact opposite, and logically so?
-Is Gendry still rowing out in the middle of nowhere?
-The show has resorted to cheap shock value: Sansa and Cersei's rapes, the sacrifice of Shireen.
46
you are crazy. It is an excellent show-does it have to follow the books? no
23
It seems like people have varying lists of lowlights.
One thing is for certain: at least 95% of the time, the show-running lords of "Game"are nowhere near as clever as Martin.
One thing is for certain: at least 95% of the time, the show-running lords of "Game"are nowhere near as clever as Martin.
12
I don't fully agree with you. I didn't have much interest in the show during the first season; it was reading the first two books that got me into it. Yes, the show puts sex and violence front and center; that's what sells to the American public. Throughout the next four seasons the show has done a much better job of telling a story than the author. Martin puts out too many plots and sub-plots (and sub-sub-plots), doesn't develop them, paints himself into a corner plot-wise and then tries to get out of it by killing off one or more of the few sympathetic characters. Martin has forgotten that to be effective any story needs a beginning, middle, and an end. From reading all the books it doesn't look as though he has a coherent storyline in his head, and is making it up as he goes along.
6
random thoughts:
Jon Snow is only dead for now. But when he's resurrected... he will be changed and a much darker figure; not the virtuous and noble young man determined to keep his oath (from which he'll have been released in death).
The lack of consideration in Westeros for what's going on in Essos is the dog that doesn't bark. Everyone who counts knows Daenerys has dragons; but since only she can command them, isn't it curious none of these Machiavellian maneuverers are trying to either co-opt or destroy her and her dragons before she is powerful enough to make her move? She has been nearly absent from everyone's calculations and yet she is the greatest danger to the Lannisters and their rivals (besides the fact that she has a strong claim to the throne). I expect (hope) the new season will address this, now that Tyrion is in Essos and advising her. In fact, Daenerys with her dragons is almost too powerful... I suspect she will prove to not have as complete control over her dragons as we all have been led to believe.
In fact, there is much that will come to fruition this season and make it quite memorable. Bran's storyline will return in a big way after being absent last season. The White Walkers will (should!) descend upon the North. Winter (finally!) will come... won't it? The Faceless Men and Arya will move front and center.
And if this isn't enough... Silicon Valley drops next Sunday as well!
Jon Snow is only dead for now. But when he's resurrected... he will be changed and a much darker figure; not the virtuous and noble young man determined to keep his oath (from which he'll have been released in death).
The lack of consideration in Westeros for what's going on in Essos is the dog that doesn't bark. Everyone who counts knows Daenerys has dragons; but since only she can command them, isn't it curious none of these Machiavellian maneuverers are trying to either co-opt or destroy her and her dragons before she is powerful enough to make her move? She has been nearly absent from everyone's calculations and yet she is the greatest danger to the Lannisters and their rivals (besides the fact that she has a strong claim to the throne). I expect (hope) the new season will address this, now that Tyrion is in Essos and advising her. In fact, Daenerys with her dragons is almost too powerful... I suspect she will prove to not have as complete control over her dragons as we all have been led to believe.
In fact, there is much that will come to fruition this season and make it quite memorable. Bran's storyline will return in a big way after being absent last season. The White Walkers will (should!) descend upon the North. Winter (finally!) will come... won't it? The Faceless Men and Arya will move front and center.
And if this isn't enough... Silicon Valley drops next Sunday as well!
27
My husband and I are doing a thru-hike of the Appalachian Trail, and we will be taking a "zero" day in town just to see what happens to our beloved Daenerys during the first episode of the new season!
My own guess is that Daenerys and the Starks will end up peacefully sharing the kingdoms.
My own guess is that Daenerys and the Starks will end up peacefully sharing the kingdoms.
12
Spoiler: Ramsay Bolton wins in the end and flays everyone.
15
Um no. Daenerys will probably become more and more sinister, as that is what her arc is becoming in the book. She has been torn between taking Westeros and being the "Queen" of Mereen, but now the choice of keeping Mereen in order has been taken from her. Fire and Blood will be her new laws to live by. Though you would never know this from the show. I would take some time on the trail to read the books by lantern light.
IMO, the dual roads approach is the worst of all possible outcomes because (if Mr. Martin ever finishes his series) the fandom will forever be doomed to debates about whether the books represent the true cannon or whether the true cannon belongs to the books.
It's the type of debate that is ultimately futile, and yet consumes a story's legacy in perpetuity.
It's the type of debate that is ultimately futile, and yet consumes a story's legacy in perpetuity.
9
I agree, but the show has already diverged way too far away from the books to be considered canon. That game is over, and the HBO producers continue to make the story worse, as they are not George RR Martin.
I worship the books and love the show that has given them a visual life on screen. However, when Tyrion finally saw his first dragon and met Daenerys in season 5, my heart sank for GRRM. He should have "owned" those moments as a writer. These were climactic events the narrative has been building toward from the start, and the writer who set the story in motion now has payoff scenes realized first by artists other than himself. This is a shame for GRRM. And as a reader, I would have preferred to encounter those scenes first in the books. When the remaining novels do come out, the major scenes already depicted in the show will simply not have the same impact on the imagination of a reader who has literally seen it before. But we all have our choices here: GRRM to sanction the show before finishing his epic, and devoted readers who can't not watch the show.
17
....an excellent reason there oughta be two versions: one for people who have read the book, and the other for people like me.
The latter would be wholly free from any incentive to reflect the books, any fear at diverging from them. I hope it would also drop the occult elements. A universe with dragons, the white walkers, and the hall of faces is comprehensible, and they obey their own rules. But magic, used too freely, can make choices and consequences seem insignificant. This universe too grave for that.
The latter would be wholly free from any incentive to reflect the books, any fear at diverging from them. I hope it would also drop the occult elements. A universe with dragons, the white walkers, and the hall of faces is comprehensible, and they obey their own rules. But magic, used too freely, can make choices and consequences seem insignificant. This universe too grave for that.
1
Well, if grrm rally wanted those moments for humself, he should have written faster.
Book 5 came out the summer I began my PhD. I'm finished and he still has no book.
Book 5 came out the summer I began my PhD. I'm finished and he still has no book.
The HBO series is at its best when unlike characters are paired -- for example, Arya and the Hound, Jaime and Brienne (or Bronn), Tyrion and anybody.
Season 5 flaws included splitting up some entertaining odd-couples without replacing them, and sidelining Tyrion for much of the season. And am I the only one who finds the Whitewalkers boring?
Here's hoping for a better-paced season 6!
Season 5 flaws included splitting up some entertaining odd-couples without replacing them, and sidelining Tyrion for much of the season. And am I the only one who finds the Whitewalkers boring?
Here's hoping for a better-paced season 6!
40
Just a side note on the white walkers. They're most interesting (to me) for the conversations they spark in the southern kingdoms. I'm not the greenest person on earth, but if I didn't know better, I'd swear Martin just took Congressional debates and inaction regarding global warming, and threw it in with some proper nouns and context changed. Bear with me... the white walkers are a threat common to every man, woman and child in Westoros. The powers that be give token gestures to the experts on this subject (i.e., those on the wall), but essentially dismiss the subject as either fantasy or the political trick of a special interest group to get more funding. Meanwhile, the people most directly affected by the walkers (the wildlings) are being displaced by this nightmarish, but very real threat. As the leaders of the world play their "game of thrones" with each other, the situation with the walkers is gradually, but steadily, reaching a point of no return as winter has finally arrived and the walkers get closer and closer to the southern lands and ushering a cataclysm that hasn't been seen in living memory.
124
Great analysis Matt, whether it was in GRRM's mind or not!
4
Good call!
At this point all I really want is a list of all the characters presently alive (plus Jon Snow and I guess Lady Stoneheart) and their ultimate dispositions.
7
Internet
I am thankful that the talented writers at HBO are on the job. Mr. Martin has shown very little interest in actually completing his saga and the readers deserve closure.
If the last book is an accurate indicator of where Mr. Martin's prose is headed, HBO will likely do a better job, anyway. His last book was a dull travelogue filled with cliche and adolescent sexuality, completely bereft of the polish that made me fall for the tale. I've no interest in repeating the experience
If the last book is an accurate indicator of where Mr. Martin's prose is headed, HBO will likely do a better job, anyway. His last book was a dull travelogue filled with cliche and adolescent sexuality, completely bereft of the polish that made me fall for the tale. I've no interest in repeating the experience
30
I agree, except I'd say the last two volumes were dull. I understand a lull after so much has happened, but not a lull that lasts for two long volumes. Martin badly needs an editor.
And he ( and the TV series) are both in danger of killing off nearly all the characters that drew us into the story in the first place, both good and bad. The Viking- like characters (The Greyjoys and others) are excruciatingly dull. So far, so are the Dornish characters, except of course for Oberyn. Martin introduced one character, bored us to death with his adventures and then killed him off. It's good that important characters can die, but Martin may be taking it a little too far-- no new characters he introduces will be quite as interesting as the ones who have died.
And he ( and the TV series) are both in danger of killing off nearly all the characters that drew us into the story in the first place, both good and bad. The Viking- like characters (The Greyjoys and others) are excruciatingly dull. So far, so are the Dornish characters, except of course for Oberyn. Martin introduced one character, bored us to death with his adventures and then killed him off. It's good that important characters can die, but Martin may be taking it a little too far-- no new characters he introduces will be quite as interesting as the ones who have died.
21
WRONG. The last book was fantastic, full of foreshadowing for where the series is headed. Google "The Mereenese Blot" and read those essays and try reading ADWD again, this time not after you have just read 4 giant books on the same story before it. The HBO show is not going to be the real ending for this series, Martin himself has said, Stannis is not dead, for one thing, which is a huge change in the story as he has the best claim to the Throne if you go strictly by succession.
John - you think they are wrong, but that's an opinion. I have read essays on the "Mereenese Blot". Sadly. I found them more interesting than reading the actual books 4 and 5. GRRM has created a fantastic world and overall plot, but I found the last two books a non-engrossing and frustrating slog to read anyway.
1
yay!!! the land without mercy, pity and compassion. I read the books, I watched all the shows, it's not Earth, it's a fantasy, and i can't wait ...
10
I am tempted to invest the time by watching this new season on HBO (I have read all the novels and only watched the first season). The reason for me is that the series is finally at a point beyond the books. After reading the five books in 20 years I must say that the “return on investment” on the books has been horrendous! Not even considering the fact that on the last book (all 1150 pages of it) nothing really interesting happened.
I believe that the series will be the story to follow as I doubt Mr. Martin would ever finish his amazing story before the series finishes it up. As much as I prefer to read, I am finally turning to the TV series camp. When and if the books come out I might give it a try, but there is no excuse for taking so long to finish a story that began in 1996.
I believe that the series will be the story to follow as I doubt Mr. Martin would ever finish his amazing story before the series finishes it up. As much as I prefer to read, I am finally turning to the TV series camp. When and if the books come out I might give it a try, but there is no excuse for taking so long to finish a story that began in 1996.
25
I don't mind if the books and the TV shows take different roads as long as they reach the same (general) end. i.e. whomever is destined for the Iron Throne in George RR Martin's mind, ends up sitting there on TV (and Jon Snow's parents are the same people on TV as they are in Martin's mind). As lover of the books, I'm endlessly grateful that the show has generally stayed true to the spirit of the stories and the characters, costumes, sets, dialogue has not felt out of place in all of the 50 episodes shown so far, so as far as I'm concerned, they've earned whatever creative license they take from here on out. Can't wait for Episode 1 next Sunday!!!
53
The author is a great writer of dialogue, but cannot create characters. They are just roles filling the plot. Catherine Stark is a pining mother, nothing else. However on screen with powerful acting and production she becomes a character I feel and connect with.
There are scenes in the book, such as when Theo meets his father, that I cringed through when reading. I found the same scene, with the same words riveting on screen.