I'd rather wear a burkini than a western bikini any day! I hope they come into style. How can having to expose most of my body (via western bikini) possibly be considered more feminist or liberated?
4
Did anyone check with the Islamic fashion police to make sure these new designs pass muster. After all, they are the final arbiters of what is allowed.
4
It's Saudi Arabia draping their women in black in the heat of the sun while the men wear white that looks oppressive and just wrong.
5
Can you say medieval chastity belt? How about diverting all the energy talking about what women have to wear toward men getting a grip on barbaric, sexual urges….how about that for a change.
11
Wear long, medium, short, loose of fitting, use cosmetics or don't, shave body hAir or leave it, but do NOT wear clothing that tells me you accept your submission and discrimination.
The TV presenter Sarah wears islamic clothing when in Saudi Arabia, out of respect à la "in Rome do like the Romans do". Well I want to see the same respect by anyone in the western World; here we do not hide our faces or hair, we do not swim in ridicoulous, dangerous, burkinis. Generations of women have fought for equal rights and I do not want to see these watered down to make place for wrong tolerance. Let's remember Simone de Beauvoir (freely translated):
" Do never forget, that a political, economic or religious crisis is enough to put womens' rights into question. These rights are never secure. You have to stay vigilant your entire life."
The TV presenter Sarah wears islamic clothing when in Saudi Arabia, out of respect à la "in Rome do like the Romans do". Well I want to see the same respect by anyone in the western World; here we do not hide our faces or hair, we do not swim in ridicoulous, dangerous, burkinis. Generations of women have fought for equal rights and I do not want to see these watered down to make place for wrong tolerance. Let's remember Simone de Beauvoir (freely translated):
" Do never forget, that a political, economic or religious crisis is enough to put womens' rights into question. These rights are never secure. You have to stay vigilant your entire life."
11
Pierre Berge': "He then implied that the designers were exploiting a misogynist system that, for financial gain, forces women to hide their bodies: “Renounce the money and have some principles,”
I think this is a mirror moment. This is from an industry that sexualizes 12 year's old on the cover of Vogue. That places religious images Christian and non Christian in the same photo with clothing which over secularizes teens. Thereby giving the message that anything goes.
I believe wholeheartedly in women's rights, to choose their lives and their paths as they see fit, however to put the Fashion Industrial Complex as a shining beacon of women's rights is appalling at this juncture in history. They have proven themselves on the wrong side of history as are the Imams who exploit women through muddle headed interpretations of the Koran.
I think this is a mirror moment. This is from an industry that sexualizes 12 year's old on the cover of Vogue. That places religious images Christian and non Christian in the same photo with clothing which over secularizes teens. Thereby giving the message that anything goes.
I believe wholeheartedly in women's rights, to choose their lives and their paths as they see fit, however to put the Fashion Industrial Complex as a shining beacon of women's rights is appalling at this juncture in history. They have proven themselves on the wrong side of history as are the Imams who exploit women through muddle headed interpretations of the Koran.
Whether the collar around your neck is silk or burlap it is still a symbol
of women being enslaved by a religion that deems them UNEQUAL to men.
of women being enslaved by a religion that deems them UNEQUAL to men.
6
Why do some people think that women’s fashion means skin-tight or revealing clothes? What I wore when I was 25 is no longer appropriate to wear in my 50’s. Not because of my religion, nor do I want to dress like that anymore. That’s not oppression. Women want to look beautiful at any age but we don’t all want to wear body-con or skimpy clothes.
When I first saw a Muslim swimsuit, I thought it was ridiculous. Then I thought; how is that much different than a scuba suit? And isn’t what’s really important is that Muslim women are swimming and engaging in water sports? Yes.
Look at some of the clothing designs from Yves Saint Laurent, Nina Ricci, Oscar de la Renta, Rudi Gernreich, Christian Dior, Gagliano, Giorgio Sant Angelo and Pauline Trigere in the 1970’s, during the decade of hot pants, halter tops, miniskirts and string bikinis. They showed long, full, flowing, fully-covered dresses with hoods and head wraps, aimed at non-Muslim women customers. This was couture. Their designs were the same silhouettes and styling as what’s shown in this article. I find it ironic that the French are complaining now.
I have a long, printed silk caftan that I wear in the summer. Very boho-chic. It has nothing to do with oppression, misogyny or religion. It’s no different than these fashions. There are many Orthodox and Ultra Orthodox women, as well as women of other faiths who dress modestly who will appreciate these beautiful modest clothes. Supply and demand. These designers are smart.
When I first saw a Muslim swimsuit, I thought it was ridiculous. Then I thought; how is that much different than a scuba suit? And isn’t what’s really important is that Muslim women are swimming and engaging in water sports? Yes.
Look at some of the clothing designs from Yves Saint Laurent, Nina Ricci, Oscar de la Renta, Rudi Gernreich, Christian Dior, Gagliano, Giorgio Sant Angelo and Pauline Trigere in the 1970’s, during the decade of hot pants, halter tops, miniskirts and string bikinis. They showed long, full, flowing, fully-covered dresses with hoods and head wraps, aimed at non-Muslim women customers. This was couture. Their designs were the same silhouettes and styling as what’s shown in this article. I find it ironic that the French are complaining now.
I have a long, printed silk caftan that I wear in the summer. Very boho-chic. It has nothing to do with oppression, misogyny or religion. It’s no different than these fashions. There are many Orthodox and Ultra Orthodox women, as well as women of other faiths who dress modestly who will appreciate these beautiful modest clothes. Supply and demand. These designers are smart.
4
"Literally translated, hijab means 'curtain.'" (Asra Nomani, co-founder of the Muslim Reform Movement and author of Standing Alone: An American Woman's Struggle for the Soul of Islam.)
I wish the media in general would stop referring to hijabs as veils or scarves, as if they were accessories. If you swap out "veil" or "scarf" and replace it with "curtain" in this article, suddenly the whole conversation seems ridiculous. Who would think Muslim women wearing curtains to prevent them from exposing any skin or hair, while Muslim men have no similar restrictions, ISN'T sexist?
I wish the media in general would stop referring to hijabs as veils or scarves, as if they were accessories. If you swap out "veil" or "scarf" and replace it with "curtain" in this article, suddenly the whole conversation seems ridiculous. Who would think Muslim women wearing curtains to prevent them from exposing any skin or hair, while Muslim men have no similar restrictions, ISN'T sexist?
13
That's not what freedom looks like. That's what hot, itchy and uncomfortable looks like. And all at the direction/direct order of some individual guy who's not subject to the same "fashion" dictates and of a religion that far too often oppresses, abuses and simply despises women.
Oh, and by the way, scarves, long-sleeved blouses, and floor- and ankle-length skirts and dresses have been available since...forever. Go online; you can't find that stuff anywhere. Try eBay, you might be able to get a really good deal on something "vintage" and/or truly unique, all while not fattening the wallets of the ripoff artistes touting this overpriced nonsense.
Oh, and by the way, scarves, long-sleeved blouses, and floor- and ankle-length skirts and dresses have been available since...forever. Go online; you can't find that stuff anywhere. Try eBay, you might be able to get a really good deal on something "vintage" and/or truly unique, all while not fattening the wallets of the ripoff artistes touting this overpriced nonsense.
10
Seems like hollow moral posturing to me. If these crusaders for Muslim women's rights truly care about Muslim women, they should encourage and give opportunities for Muslim women to speak on the issue instead of moralizing about it themselves.
4
Laurence Rossignol, the French minister for women’s rights, begged to differ. “What’s at stake is social control over women’s bodies,”
So how would France react if the sales pitch was geared towards Amish fashion? Or Othodox Jewish women?
Would Rossignol ban the sale if an agnostic woman wished to wear clothes that didn't expose more skin? Are women expected to show lots of skin, or is that a personal choice?
So how would France react if the sales pitch was geared towards Amish fashion? Or Othodox Jewish women?
Would Rossignol ban the sale if an agnostic woman wished to wear clothes that didn't expose more skin? Are women expected to show lots of skin, or is that a personal choice?
10
When an Amish woman or an Orthodox Jewish woman becomes a suicide bomber, her explosives belt hidden beneath her burkini, then we'll deal with those two threats to our societies.
2
It is deeply disingenuous for people to simply say, "Let women wear full-body clothing if they want--what's the harm? Let designers offer this as a choice." Because in much of the Muslim world, it's not a choice, but a harsh demand, backed by threat to a woman's life. Sanctioning this clothing by mainstream designers can also be seen as an incipient threat to the Western way of life because certain Muslims make it clear they are working toward the day when ALL the women of the world will be forced to wear this clothing or be beaten, jailed or killed.
THAT'S the difference.
THAT'S the difference.
21
Do women cover their with a scarf when they have an audience with the pope? Why is that required and not frowned upon?
2
Oh come on, get real. How much time would your sample woman spend in an audience with the pope? Compare this with how much time she spends anywhere outside of the inner sanctum of her home, which would be the only place, according to the rules in places like Saudi Arabia, where she could expose her hair and other parts of her body that women in the US, France, etc. expose without attracting any attention at all.
3
It is not just the time but also the spirit in which the requirement is made. Why should a woman cover her head in the presence of the pope? What is the reason? The same male domination. It has become a lot less in westren societies. That is all. Let them wear head scarf, makes them look ugly, who cares. Just do not cover face and walk around in an abaya - one never knows what or who is inside those tents. It is a security issue.
1
I notice Ms. Rossignol is herself very modestly dressed in the photo shown in the article. The contemporary fashion industry, with its distorted female body imagery and continuous fat-shaming, is every bit as toxic as islamic female dress codes. Instead of fixating on clothing and women's physical appearance, let's direct our energy to dealing with the bigger problems women face, the gender pay gap, lack of access to safe contraception, sexual violence and education.
6
Folks, I hate to be practical on such a highly charged and important intellectual issue but some of us look better and feel more comfortable with more clothing and others feel happier, sexier or more attractive with less clothing. What is the big deal?
Most Muslim women in the West do not wear anything shown in this article -- they wear jeans or leggings, a long shirt (think boyfriend shirt) and a head scarf. That's it.
So, if I too happen to feel more comfortable in jeans and a long shirt and I ... brainwashed? Complicit? Is it wrong to wish that comfortable and flattering clothing that looks good on women with a variety of body shapes were more available in my country?
What do I have to wear to prove that I'm a free woman? Do I have to dress like a Parisian? Because frankly, I don't have that much time in the mornings.
Most Muslim women in the West do not wear anything shown in this article -- they wear jeans or leggings, a long shirt (think boyfriend shirt) and a head scarf. That's it.
So, if I too happen to feel more comfortable in jeans and a long shirt and I ... brainwashed? Complicit? Is it wrong to wish that comfortable and flattering clothing that looks good on women with a variety of body shapes were more available in my country?
What do I have to wear to prove that I'm a free woman? Do I have to dress like a Parisian? Because frankly, I don't have that much time in the mornings.
11
Most Muslim women in the west do NOT wear head scarfs. Asserting that they do normalizes incremental steps toward further veiling.
8
It's not a "big deal" since you clearly have a choice about whether you dress to cover up or not. For many Muslim women, there is NO choice. They are shamed and/or punished if they don't conform. Hence the discussion about freedom...
11
It would be better to ignore the hijab issue. Let them wear it if they want to. Didn't Hollywood stars wear something like a turban in the 1920s and 30s? However, full face veil should be banned everywhere, for security reasons. Do not bring religion or culture. It is a matter of security. As for fashion designers and clothes retailers, it is just business and capturing another market. When a lot of Hispanics move into town, the local grocery stores add Hispanic grocery items on the shelves. The more importance you give to this issue, the more controversial it becomes. Just ignore it.
4
Oh, France. Every time I think we're the most Islamaphobic country, you rear your head to say something hypocritical and misogynistic.
So let me see if I have this right, Ms. Rossignol, you're allowed to wear a perfectly modest suit, but if another woman, who happens to be Muslim, does the same, she's being oppressed? And Mr. Berge, you, a man, are busy dictating to women that they must wear what makes them feel beautiful, but it's not okay if dressing modestly does just that?
So let me see if I have this right, Ms. Rossignol, you're allowed to wear a perfectly modest suit, but if another woman, who happens to be Muslim, does the same, she's being oppressed? And Mr. Berge, you, a man, are busy dictating to women that they must wear what makes them feel beautiful, but it's not okay if dressing modestly does just that?
9
Interesting that observant Jewish women have been dressing modestly, including covering their hair, in countries all over the world without any political outcry. Could it be that this is, in most cases, a personal decision not a statement that has conflated religion with politics. Sorry - looks to me like just another way to make money that has had unintended consequences for the fashion industry.
7
I don't know: is beating six to seven children by the time you're 25 a personal decision of young Hasidic women? Lots of "personal decisions" are influenced by more than mere individual preference.
Yes, of course, certain women who identify as Jewish and who have appropriated the term "observant" to describe their practices "cover" in the Abrahamic tradition that persists in conservative Muslim communities and even in some Christian ones. All Christian women used to wrap up like what we now think of as old-school nuns. Same reason: in a culture of ubiquitous sexual violence toward women, it helps to signal compliance with majority norms, including age-old prejudices about the Evil Eye.
Yes, of course, certain women who identify as Jewish and who have appropriated the term "observant" to describe their practices "cover" in the Abrahamic tradition that persists in conservative Muslim communities and even in some Christian ones. All Christian women used to wrap up like what we now think of as old-school nuns. Same reason: in a culture of ubiquitous sexual violence toward women, it helps to signal compliance with majority norms, including age-old prejudices about the Evil Eye.
5
Well, well spellchecker. Constantly guessing that I'm trying to write Nissan rather than niqab--but turning "bearing" into "beating"? Bearing children, not "beating" them.
5
In a culture of ubiquitous sexual violence against women (which is all cultures, and I say that a biologist not as some kind of feminist rant) it helps to not expose sexually stimulating parts of your body to random men.
"Designers are there to make women more beautiful, to give them their freedom," says Pierre Berge. What a bunch of bull. If designers were really interested in making women more beautiful, then they would go back to making clothes that actually looked good on the feminine figure instead of making clothes that only looks good on clothes hangers and models built like them. But its harder and costs more money to design for the feminine figure, right? That being said, I am of very mixed feelings about designers making clothes that fit within the dictates of religions that make women shroud their bodies in heaps of cloth, even if it is 90 degrees out. On one hand, it legitimizes the inherent misogyny of these religions. But on the other hand, it allows these women some means of expressing themselves fashion wise while still conforming to the dictates of the religions, and let's face it, those dictates aren't going away any time soon.
8
Fashion brands introducing collections targeting a segment
of muslim women saw a commercial opportunity but in
the meantime they support a way of dressing labelled as
"modest" with the help of stylish fashion spreads and
blogs of fashionistas. Therefore those garments could be seen
as "cool" and trendy when they are not. A female french senator
made a satement recently in an op-ed featured in the newspaper
Liberation pointing out the "diktat" of the mini skirt imposed to women
as alieanting than wearing a scarf. This is nonsense a woman can
choose to show her legs or not in America and France when women
in the Persian gulf countries face jail time or worse if they don't
cover their hair and body in public. I saw on french TV a quick profile
on a young fashionista window shopping with a reporter to explain
how it was difficult for her to find clothes. A trouser length above
the ankle or a sleeveless shirt while classic in shape were judge
inappropriate anyway. Let's not be mistaken by the word modesty,
the reality is that those women are contrived willingly or not to dress
with no sense of freedom.
of muslim women saw a commercial opportunity but in
the meantime they support a way of dressing labelled as
"modest" with the help of stylish fashion spreads and
blogs of fashionistas. Therefore those garments could be seen
as "cool" and trendy when they are not. A female french senator
made a satement recently in an op-ed featured in the newspaper
Liberation pointing out the "diktat" of the mini skirt imposed to women
as alieanting than wearing a scarf. This is nonsense a woman can
choose to show her legs or not in America and France when women
in the Persian gulf countries face jail time or worse if they don't
cover their hair and body in public. I saw on french TV a quick profile
on a young fashionista window shopping with a reporter to explain
how it was difficult for her to find clothes. A trouser length above
the ankle or a sleeveless shirt while classic in shape were judge
inappropriate anyway. Let's not be mistaken by the word modesty,
the reality is that those women are contrived willingly or not to dress
with no sense of freedom.
12
When did feminism and ideals of women's freedom become conflated with how much of our bodies we choose to reveal? Is the woman who waxes and spray tans and flat irons her way into "fashionable" and revealing clothing more progressive than the one who dons a caftan and headscarf and starts her day? We should focus of the real barriers for women in much of the Muslim world -- laws and customs that deny them the freedom to learn, work, vote, control their own destinies, and to wear whatever they want.
11
These clothes are far beyond "modest". Why must Muslim women have to cover their entire body while Muslim men can walk around in whatever contemporary clothing they want? I think this attire is not meant to protect and revere women but rather to treat them as if they are inherently evil.
25
The Law of Negative Experience Extrapolation: Any negative experience with a clearly recognizable member of another group -- or ‘tribe’ -- tends to be automatically and unconsciously extrapolated on to that entire tribe. This is an eons-old biological defense mechanism and the root of all prejudices towards other ‘tribes’ -- and the reason why it is extremely difficult to eradicate prejudice between groups.
Corollary to the Law of Negative Experience Extrapolation: The greater the perceived differences between tribes (i.e., language, dress, physical characteristics, customs, etc.,) the more the negative extrapolation is manifested. Thus, the more a tribe accents its differences, the more fertile the soil for hostility from other tribes.
Corollary to the Law of Negative Experience Extrapolation: The greater the perceived differences between tribes (i.e., language, dress, physical characteristics, customs, etc.,) the more the negative extrapolation is manifested. Thus, the more a tribe accents its differences, the more fertile the soil for hostility from other tribes.
If the Muslim women had taken to the hijab as a personal style choice, there would be no issue. But the reemergence of the hijab and its popularity among young Muslim women has been in the context of increasing Islamic fundamentalism and terrorism the world over. Most critics of the hijab are reacting to the underlying coercion of the women in countries where men dictate what a woman should wear. One can criticize western fashion norms for objectifying a woman’s body but no western woman faces punishment for not wearing skimpy clothes, bikinis or painful high heels.
40
Hear, hear. Precisely.
Why is VGD's comment not a NYT's Pick?
I would like for women to be free to wear what they want (modest or not). And I would like to be free to offer critiques of any culture that is behaving oppressively towards women. In my view, social and media critiques of clothing are necessary and should be permitted. Government oversight of clothing is inappropriate.
4
The conclusion of the article, about fashion's appropriation of the extremes, misses the point, in France at least. The French are extremely coded in their manner of dressing. In the city of Lyon, where I am living right now, one notices that all men and women tend to dress modestly, that if you want to look rich and bourgeois, you wear certain clothes, and if you want to look "bobo" you wear certain clothes. The French backlash against a more "muslim" look is hypocritical, because the French themselves conform to dress codes as a way to perform a certain type of Frenchness. Yes, one can choose to expose one's entire head, but again, even there, hair is coded, from the manicured haircut to the man bun to the rasta tresses.
The whole concept of "freedom" and "choice" is unexamined. My American students and I have noticed that nobody walks around in shorts when the weather is warm on a weekday. Shorts are for weekends and more rural vacation destinations. Who decided this and why? The French need to look inward at their own relationship to clothing, before denouncing other cultures.
The whole concept of "freedom" and "choice" is unexamined. My American students and I have noticed that nobody walks around in shorts when the weather is warm on a weekday. Shorts are for weekends and more rural vacation destinations. Who decided this and why? The French need to look inward at their own relationship to clothing, before denouncing other cultures.
10
The French don't have one dress code for women that is punitive and one for men that is permissive.
17
I think the main thing the French are worried about is where the next Islamic terror attack is going to happen. Thus, their failure to embrace outward manifestations (Islamic dress code for women) from the segment of the Muslim population that is terrorizing them.
I think that businesses should be able to target whatever market they wish.
That being said, I simply don't understand how covering oneself up in an effort to be modest while wearing movie-star amounts of make-up can be reconciled?
I would imagine that men would find some of these models and the ladies who mimic them 100x more alluring and tempting than a no-makeup, hair-in-a-ponytail lady who happens to be wearing something revealing her elbows and knees.
All of this smacks of following the letter of the law and not the spirit of it.
That being said, I simply don't understand how covering oneself up in an effort to be modest while wearing movie-star amounts of make-up can be reconciled?
I would imagine that men would find some of these models and the ladies who mimic them 100x more alluring and tempting than a no-makeup, hair-in-a-ponytail lady who happens to be wearing something revealing her elbows and knees.
All of this smacks of following the letter of the law and not the spirit of it.
6
I was in the South of France last summer and one day we went to the beach at Sète. There was a group next to us mainly dressed in swimming costumes, shorts, t-shirts. But one woman in the group was wearing a full burqa (i.e. head to toe black). Obviously no swimming for her and it looked incredibly hot and uncomfortable; the Marks and Spencers burkini would certainly have been an improvement - provided her husband allowed her to wear it…
On the same trip we went to Arles for the photo festival (third year in a row) and I would say that there are definitely more women wearing burqas than before. We went to a bullfight in the Roman arena one day and everyone was sitting on the shady side. The only people on the sunny side were a Muslim couple - he was in shorts and a tee-shirt and she was in full burqa. She was wearing black gloves which suggest very extreme Salafist beliefs. Again, it all looked hot and uncomfortable and hard to accept that a woman's body should be covered up while it is OK to see a man's face, arms and legs.
Men should be able to control themselves when they see a woman's body and demagogues in the Gulf should stop treating women as second class citizens. But having said that you can't blame a business for trying to tap new markets; it isn't the fashion houses that are creating this problem.
On the same trip we went to Arles for the photo festival (third year in a row) and I would say that there are definitely more women wearing burqas than before. We went to a bullfight in the Roman arena one day and everyone was sitting on the shady side. The only people on the sunny side were a Muslim couple - he was in shorts and a tee-shirt and she was in full burqa. She was wearing black gloves which suggest very extreme Salafist beliefs. Again, it all looked hot and uncomfortable and hard to accept that a woman's body should be covered up while it is OK to see a man's face, arms and legs.
Men should be able to control themselves when they see a woman's body and demagogues in the Gulf should stop treating women as second class citizens. But having said that you can't blame a business for trying to tap new markets; it isn't the fashion houses that are creating this problem.
25
It is the hypocrisy of the Islamic world that one finds such disgusting. The men parade around in shorts while the women are forced into shrouds. How can anyone respect such sexism?
22
It's not a burqa, it's a niqab. The burqa is the Afghan tent-coverall held in place with the head-strap, usually blue or green, and with the crocheted panel to hide the eyes. The niqab is the all-black Saudi/Wahabbi get-up, sometimes complete with gloves, and exposing the eyes.
Heaven help us, it's like parsing the difference between purdah and a menstrual hut. Disgraceful, all of it.
Heaven help us, it's like parsing the difference between purdah and a menstrual hut. Disgraceful, all of it.
4
While it is easy to try to look at this in terms of making money and expanding markets, I doubt that much of the radical Muslim world will see it that way. Rather, I suspect that the radical Muslim world will see that they are winning and that, if they keep up the pressure, they will ultimately convert the world to their point of view.
If you want to look at this as being tolerance for other points of view, that would be a big mistake. The radical Muslim world has no tolerance for other points of view. So, giving tolerance will not gain tolerance.
Finally, the consequences for women in the radical Muslim world for women who do not adopt their dress standards are draconian, and can even result in a very painful death. So, the argument that women in the radical Muslim world are dressing to please their god is patently false. They are dressing that way to remain alive.
If you want to look at this as being tolerance for other points of view, that would be a big mistake. The radical Muslim world has no tolerance for other points of view. So, giving tolerance will not gain tolerance.
Finally, the consequences for women in the radical Muslim world for women who do not adopt their dress standards are draconian, and can even result in a very painful death. So, the argument that women in the radical Muslim world are dressing to please their god is patently false. They are dressing that way to remain alive.
19
What about moderate Muslim women?
Moderate Muslim women didn't wear veils until very recently. Most still don't.
2
Sorry for reposting--my reply seems to have disappeared. Until very recently, "covering" was the mark of an educated woman who was a religious extremist (whether Christian, Jewish, or Muslim), or of an uneducated third-world-er. What you probably mean by "moderate" would not have worn a scarf--certainly not a hijab or worse.
Women of all shapes, sizes and religions want to feel beautiful! Welcome to 2016. Western cultures have colonized aesthetics for long enough.
5
Exactly!
You said it! I love this turn toward modesty in fashion. I personally feel oppressed by the idea that I should dress and behave like a porn star. Such bad taste!
4
Yes, or a clown, which is what I think of when I see traditional-type U.S. Christian women in their culturally-approved church-going clothing. The men, in their suits, look normal. The women, with their poofy hair, make-up, flouncy (modest) collars and necklines, full skirts, stockings, and shoes, look like Bozo. Quite unsettling. But wearing a hijab is no less a concession to oppressive norms.
1
Concerning Madame Rossignol's comments on the subject, she later regretted the second part of her comment because she compared women who wore the Islamic veil to American "Negroes" opposing the abolition of slavery. She regretted the words used, but not the sentiment.
Not that she should ever regret the sentiment. Laurence Rossignol has been a feminist active in the public eye for decades now. How could she possibly support the "privatization" of women's sexuality—to the benefit of men no less!—when so much of feminism's fight was to achieve the opposite ends?
This kowtowing to Islam by the "left"—particularly the Anglo left—is of the utmost illiberal and anti-leftist hypocrisy. The hijab is simply a manifestation of Islamic sexism made physical—and not the only, far from that.
How can feminists, liberals, the Anglo "left", and the European left accept this anti-women behavior from Muslims while—rightly—decrying it from Christians, Jews, and just about everybody else.
Not that she should ever regret the sentiment. Laurence Rossignol has been a feminist active in the public eye for decades now. How could she possibly support the "privatization" of women's sexuality—to the benefit of men no less!—when so much of feminism's fight was to achieve the opposite ends?
This kowtowing to Islam by the "left"—particularly the Anglo left—is of the utmost illiberal and anti-leftist hypocrisy. The hijab is simply a manifestation of Islamic sexism made physical—and not the only, far from that.
How can feminists, liberals, the Anglo "left", and the European left accept this anti-women behavior from Muslims while—rightly—decrying it from Christians, Jews, and just about everybody else.
18
I love the outfit from Tommy Hilfiger’s Ramadan collection. It's sad that you have to have a religious reason to make clothes that are modest, stylish, and elegant. This looks easy to wear and comfortable, yet not a pair of jeans. I have a very active job that requires reaching high and low, and I get very tired of wearing blouses and pants that need constant attention. Also I dislike clothes that are so fitted that eating salty food at lunch makes you miserable the rest of the day. Honestly, I feel like "sexy" clothes are inappropriate and impractical in many work environments anyway. I work in a laboratory, and I often have to speak to the young, new employees about wearing clothes that cover them and shoes with closed toes for their own safety. Who really wants a splatter of bleach to hit your cleavage?
7
I think it's great that various brands are seeking to grow their businesses by finding new markets to sell to. If women want to be fully covered or almost naked, then let them - whether they are doing it for themselves, society or the god(s) they worship.
3
Unless they are forced into it, I'm sure you meant to ad.
1
It's about money, not freedom. The fashion houses have discovered that after exploiting all other places, the Middle East and Africa (and Muslim Asians) will hopefully embrace their fashions.
Let's be 100% clear. The hijab, abaya, veil and burkha and all the "required" such attire are misogynistic attire, and are NOT symbols of freedom OR fashion. Pierre Berge is right. Stop trying to appease a segment of society that has no respect for women, or their rights.
Let's be 100% clear. The hijab, abaya, veil and burkha and all the "required" such attire are misogynistic attire, and are NOT symbols of freedom OR fashion. Pierre Berge is right. Stop trying to appease a segment of society that has no respect for women, or their rights.
63
Well of course it isn't just about the burkini or the scarf. Australian lifesavers cover up almost as much these days for sun protection and my grandmother wore a headscarf in church. It's the motivation for wearing these things that matters and its impact on the community. Are they worn of free will or imposed by religious police (backed up with criminal punishment such as in Saudi Arabia)? Or under pressure from a parent or siblings or spouse, etc? Are they worn to separate oneself from the society around one, with a sense of hostility? Or are they simply a woman's preferred means of dressing? The reason is important, not the clothes themselves. The answers won't be found in the fashion pages....
56
Excellent comment
3
Obviously the manufacturers think there's a market for these items or they wouldn't be making them. If people want to wear these garments, more power to them.
I suspect these clothes would also sell well along the I-15 corridor (Idaho, Utah, Nevada); LDS women tend to dress modestly and the long skirts, sleeved blouses, and chest-covering necklines meet the preferred standards of dress.
I suspect these clothes would also sell well along the I-15 corridor (Idaho, Utah, Nevada); LDS women tend to dress modestly and the long skirts, sleeved blouses, and chest-covering necklines meet the preferred standards of dress.
8
Co-opting "modest" to mean religion-approved is Orwellian. Many of these sub-cultures frown at androgynous dressing, no matter how modest. Women are obliged to "cover" (this includes Christian subcultures, too), yet are required to make their sex clear.
3
This is a recognition that people's fashion choices are dictated by culture. What is considered modest in one culture may not be in another. "Freedom" means being able to express one's identity, doesn't it? Well, if your identity is that of an Islamic woman, that would include a degree of modesty in dress that most Westerners can't really relate to. That does not mean that they are oppressed (though there are certainly many layers of oppression in Islamic culture), just as being able to wear short skirts or pants or cleavage does not mean that a Western woman is free.
Fashion is about creating beauty within the parameters of the culture to which the designer is trying to appeal. That means different things for an Islamic woman, a suburban housewife, a rock and roll singer, or an aspiring professional. If the clothes are beautiful, and meet the needs of the culture, amen to that.
Fashion is about creating beauty within the parameters of the culture to which the designer is trying to appeal. That means different things for an Islamic woman, a suburban housewife, a rock and roll singer, or an aspiring professional. If the clothes are beautiful, and meet the needs of the culture, amen to that.
9
It's not true that westerners can't relate to an educated, non-fundamentalist Muslim woman's desire to dress modestly. I'm 54, and I dress modestly. I'm an atheist Episcopalian. But being Muslim doesn't mean you have to dress in any particular way. Just like being Jewish, or being Mormon for that matter (to take a relatively socially conservative example of another U.S. religious culture.). Heck, the Mormon men wear "garmies." It plays into the fundamentalist politics of any group to say that any particular way of dress is a marker of that religious identity.
1
Many women want to wear modest clothing, it's nice that this option is being offered, as so much fashion is skin baring- sheer, short, tight, cut-out, body hugging. Women in western countries do have the right to wear what they want- if they choose to dress modestly, it's their right, no matter what their religion. Orthadox jews and Catholic nuns cover up for religious reason- how is that different than a Muslim woman choosing this style? Now, there are countries where woman have no power, such as Saudi Arabia- but that is beyond fashion. A woman can freely choose to cover her hair and body, don't forget this. Not all are forced to. Personally I think this style is more flattering and graceful than most of what I see worn on the streets.
8
Give me a break--these fashion designs have absolutely nothing to do with freedom and everything to do with $$$. If this cutthroat industry could figure out how to make money designing new KKK robes they'd do it. The post by FARNAZ -- see coment about Islam and misogyny--says it all.
16
I am a 43 year old woman and a successful professional. Yet if I were to travel to Saudi Arabia tomorrow, would I be able to dress as I like? I believe all women everywhere should be able to choose the clothes they wear. If a devout Muslim woman wants to wear a niqab in Paris, she should be able to do so. Just as I should be able to go without one in Saudi Arabia. So why don't we leave the fashion houses out of this argument and do what we can to ensure that women around the globe are free to enjoy this basic human right.
21
So you have to show some skin? This is objectifying women also. I actually have to wear something like the burkini since skin cancer runs in my family. It is often hard to find non-skimpy, practical clothing for my preteen daughters. From a young age, the advertisers make sure girls are bombarded with the message that all that matters is their appearance rather than their minds. And you are never too young to look sexy for the boys. We should have freedom of choice.
7
The issue being discussed is not that fashion houses are dictating that you have to “show skin,” rather that the choice of “showing skin” is being taken away from women in Islamic countries. If skin cancer did not run in your family and you found yourself in Saudi Arabia on a blistering hot summer day, you and your daughters would be FORCED to cover yourself up even if you did not wish to. It makes no sense to blame fashion houses since they are catering to the demands of the local market.
9
"What Freedom Looks Like" -- Not like that picture, that's for sure!
22
Wake me up when there's a move to grab the Pentecostal market.
6
I'm finding the comments fascinating. On the one hand, people saying that forced/coerced modesty is oppressive; on the other, people saying that this is thinly veiled islamophobia.
The kicker is, both versions of fashion are oppressive. Avoid islamophobia by acknowledging that Western fashion isn't created in a vacuum, either. Neither are the dress patterns of literally any other religious group. It's all to control women.
The kicker is, both versions of fashion are oppressive. Avoid islamophobia by acknowledging that Western fashion isn't created in a vacuum, either. Neither are the dress patterns of literally any other religious group. It's all to control women.
11
Before reading too much into what “Freedom Looks Like,” one must realize that in Islam women are required to cover their hair because it’s considered part of their feminine and sexual appeal, while men get away with having no such ‘requirements’.
If that’s not simple and straightforward misogyny, I don’t know what is!
People (often intellectuals) go overboard with defining and analyzing ‘freedom’ and ‘feminism’ without looking at the simple intentions behind these rules, or ‘fashion choices’!
If that’s not simple and straightforward misogyny, I don’t know what is!
People (often intellectuals) go overboard with defining and analyzing ‘freedom’ and ‘feminism’ without looking at the simple intentions behind these rules, or ‘fashion choices’!
78
Islam, writ large, does NOT require women to cover their hair. The Wahabbis want everyone to think it does, but it doesn't.
4
How is the Muslim tradition any different than the tradition for Ultra Orthodox women and Catholic nuns to cover their hair? It's not. But you don't object to that, why? Because it's not new to you? Or because you never thought about it?
Why do you care what someone wears on their head? If Queen Elizabeth wears a beautiful silk scarf to cover her hairdo on a drizzly English day, that's fashionable. But when a Muslim woman ties a silk scarf differently on her head, that's misogyny?
Why do you care what someone wears on their head? If Queen Elizabeth wears a beautiful silk scarf to cover her hairdo on a drizzly English day, that's fashionable. But when a Muslim woman ties a silk scarf differently on her head, that's misogyny?
1
Custom? ...in some cases, not always. Choice? ...not really. Oppression? ...of course! An argument can be made whether or not it should be supported, confronted, or ignored but it's oppression nonetheless. When women in the west can't agree on something so obvious and simple as that, they make vulnerable the hard fought freedoms they currently enjoy. Stop equivocating and show some conviction, if not for your sake, then for generations of women to come.
27
Thank you, Luke! I will never understand how anyone could look at a couple in which the man is dressed comfortably (especially on a hot summer day) and the woman is shrouded, head to toe, in a suffocating garment that's meant to erase her face from public life, and not see oppression.
1
Wait a minute....you mean the fashionistas who literally cripple women in sky high heels and skin tight jeans think the women who choose to ignore their sense of "fashion" and wear what they want and are comfortable in, are oppressed and need to be liberated? The irony is that while they speak of freedom they are trying to dictate what women can and cannot wear on their own bodies. This is just Islamophobia in another guise.
48
(Not Mark) It's not 'islamophobia', a silly term to disguise real problems, not just with Islam but with all religions and regional customs that dictate what a woman can do or wear. Freedom to decide? Most of these women have no such choice in the matter. I'm a woman who put herself through college and then went into the business world. No one tells me what to wear, what to think, or where to be. It's just that simple.
18
I think a grown woman should be able to wear whatever she chooses, even painful high heels, but if she does not have a choice, that is another matter. Why do so many Muslim young women cover themselves from head to toe? In the words of my student, "Because if I don't, my father will beat me." I also think that those who do not want to follow the customs of Western society should not avail themselves of its benefits.
51
How can anyone assume that their particular value, especially regarding something like fashion, is the RIGHT one?
What’s at stake is social control over women’s bodies,” she said in an interview with BFMTV, the most popular news network in France. “When brands invest in this Islamic garment market, they are shirking their responsibilities and are promoting women’s bodies being locked up.”
I find this a bit rich for two reasons:
1. 'Social control over women's bodies' seems an accurate way to describe the pressure that the fashion industry (among other cultural forces) has placed on women in Western culture to be über-thin and to reveal as much of their bodies as possible to be of value socially; is there any woman out there who hasn't felt dread at the onset of 'bikini season'? Is that freedom?
2. Who is to say what are the 'correct' values for what women wear on their bodies? Modesty is valued in Islamic culture - has the esteemed author of the above quote ever considered that maybe there are other, valid reasons for this (just as valid as other cultural values for clothing)? I've spent years in France; it's multicultural; deal with it.
3. Maybe these brands are actually stating 'Your values are valid too?'
What’s at stake is social control over women’s bodies,” she said in an interview with BFMTV, the most popular news network in France. “When brands invest in this Islamic garment market, they are shirking their responsibilities and are promoting women’s bodies being locked up.”
I find this a bit rich for two reasons:
1. 'Social control over women's bodies' seems an accurate way to describe the pressure that the fashion industry (among other cultural forces) has placed on women in Western culture to be über-thin and to reveal as much of their bodies as possible to be of value socially; is there any woman out there who hasn't felt dread at the onset of 'bikini season'? Is that freedom?
2. Who is to say what are the 'correct' values for what women wear on their bodies? Modesty is valued in Islamic culture - has the esteemed author of the above quote ever considered that maybe there are other, valid reasons for this (just as valid as other cultural values for clothing)? I've spent years in France; it's multicultural; deal with it.
3. Maybe these brands are actually stating 'Your values are valid too?'
32
Thanks for supporting the freedom of those who the "freedom police" judge insufficiently indoctrinated in their particular mode of self expression--and for writing so cogently.
2
I think any man or woman should be free to dress as they wish, within reason. I assume you would find it strange to see woman in a bikini strolling down a city street or a man with no shirt sitting in a cafe. Well, I find it odd to see a man in shorts and t-shirt with a woman draped in fabric from head to toe walking behind him. I would also like to say that I, a woman, have never felt oppressed by fashion or pressured to wear heels etc. Fashion isn't reality; it's art, and as such should be viewed as fantasy, an imaginative expression of the zeitgeist. Perhaps fashion magazines are as dangerous for girls as pornography is for boys.
5
@Floramac: You wrote "...within reason..."....So in effect you are setting boundaries too, according to what you feel is right...well guess what? Not all people all around the world think the same way as you do...
1
Pluralistic free society means you can choose to put on your body anything you like. Freedom has to flow multiple ways.
11
Too bad that's not true of nearly all Muslim societies!
6
So when do all the concerned people decide to liberate the Hutterite, Amish, and Orthodox Jewish women from the evil of their dress customs? By the way, many women would look better in the more flowing fashions than the LuLuLemon Reveal disaster stalking the streets of America these days. Take off your blinkers.
22
I will say - that when I think of the communities you mention in the US- both the women and the men have prescribed rules as to appearance including not only clothing, but also hair styles (and for men- facial hair edicts). However the muslims I see in the US and Europe - only the women seem to have to obey these rules. Why is that? and what is that saying about the nature of clothing choices?
41
(Not Mark) It's just as bad, either way, but I never see Muslim men having to do anything but grow out their beards. They have no choice and it can lead to violence against them to oppose it. It seems to me the orthodox Jews and Amish required both men and women to dress according to their custom. An orthodox Jew or Amish woman can walk away and she is not in danger of her life. In Islam it's only the women that are put upon. Either way, as a woman, I can tell you straight up, no one tells me what to wear, think, say or do. Wish it could be that way for all women and that's what I stand up for.
32
Americans are not the French. The French do not allow outward symbols of religions in public places such as schools. What women look good in is irrelevant.
5
(Not Neal here)
So M. Bergé says that fashion houses that show modest clothing participate in a "misogynist system that, for financial gain, forces women to hide their bodies."
How about that misogynist system that, for financial gain, forces women to *expose* their bodies, huh? Show me some dresses that cover my knees, will you? Show me something with sleeves.
So M. Bergé says that fashion houses that show modest clothing participate in a "misogynist system that, for financial gain, forces women to hide their bodies."
How about that misogynist system that, for financial gain, forces women to *expose* their bodies, huh? Show me some dresses that cover my knees, will you? Show me something with sleeves.
46
Socio-Politics aside for one moment - this has to negatively impact the brand. Doesn't it? You can hardly be known as the brand that is fashion forward - or sexy (in that Vogue fashion kind of way) and one that is known for making modest clothes for muslim clients. It dilutes the brand. Doesn't it? If Dolce and Gabbana wants to be known as the best caftan makers - that is their choice - but it is hard to believe that they would then also attract a clientele that wants to be innovative.
8
The crucial difference between a bikini and a headscarf is contained in the meaning of the garments. To me, a headscarf is a political statement that screams obscenities at the western way of life I cherish, while a bikini is just a swimsuit. Don't believe me? Try wearing a dress with a swastika motif, or a pointed white hood on your daily commute to work.
32
Some people also think that a Shtremel screams obscenities at the Western way of life as well. They don't.
1
It is pretty silly looking though.
3
To you it is a political statement, that is your bias. The wearer may have something completely different in mind: a headscarf as a way to show piety, convey identity, carry out (family) tradition, etc. There is nothing inherently wrong with that.
3
I already wear something similar to the Burkini top when I go swimming at the beach, only I wear it for sun protection not religion, skin cancer being a real possibility for me. Patagonia makes it. It is part of their R0 line of sun/surf wear. I don't, however, wear long swimming pants, though these days most trunks for men stop at the knee or lower. Fashion, not religion. Though I guess in a secular manner of speaking, fashion and the sun can be worshipped.
5
If the Caholic Church demanded or encouraged women dress in these types of garments, how would the fashion section of the NYT react?
45
It's still unbelievable to me that France doesn't allow for freedom of expression in what people wear. Personally, I'm offended when I see women's butts hanging out of the bottom of their shorts. Is that banned in Paris? Why isn't that seen as the crime of objectifying women's bodies? I'd don a hijab in a flash rather than wear shorts like that, and thank goodness I have that CHOICE!
24
France allows for plenty of freedom of expression in what women and men can wear, but they also have "rules" that Americans would find odd. The French insist, for example, on men and women wearing close-fitting, brief bathing suits because they consider loose material unsanitary. More significantly, they have a strict insistence on a firm demarcation between civic and religious life. This stems not from Islamophobia but from the years spent under the yoke of the Catholic Church.
6
I cannot believe the nonsense you have spewed out about France and unfortunately 4 people believe you...The French do not insist upon brief bathing suits!!! And then according to you, because they think they are unsanitary! Where did you ever get that impression? Some fake ironic French website like The Onion? I've lived in Italy for 38 years, Italy is very close to France and it is also theoretically a Catholic country and believe me almost nobody anymore is under the yoke of the Catholic Church...
2
So we've gone from "How dare those women wear so little clothing. It's indecent!" to "How dare those women wear so much clothing. It's indencent!"
The more things change...
The more things change...
26
The debate about the veil in France is missing the point. If a small but growing number of French citizens are choosing to wear the veil it is because there have been decades of proselytizing by fundamentalist Islamic groups (the Tablighs, the Salafists, the Muslim Brotherhood) targeting French citizens of Muslim origin who were either not religious at all or else practiced a moderate form of Islam imported from North Africa. Wearing the veil is a symptom of this process and trying to ban islamic fashion is closing the stable door after the horse has bolted.
17
Laurence Rossignol [said]...“What’s at stake is social control over women’s bodies.... When brands invest in this Islamic garment market, they are shirking their responsibilities and are promoting women’s bodies being locked up.”
reporting and prosecution of sexual assault and access to birth control are more important. women (and men) make the clothes and define fashion, not the other way around. the expression of this idea is what freedom looks like.
reporting and prosecution of sexual assault and access to birth control are more important. women (and men) make the clothes and define fashion, not the other way around. the expression of this idea is what freedom looks like.
3
Normally I would say live and let live regarding these fashion choices. However, with so many woman being beaten, or worse, for not covering up, it's hard for me not to cringe at the image of the "burkini"
56
Am I the only one puzzled by this debate? Am I the only one that finds it rather funny that an industry so inimical to the liberation of women and their fight for equality is resisting fashion aimed at muslim women because it oppresses women (I'm thinking of the comments made by Pierre Berge)? Perhaps the fashion industry is simply protecting its monopoly on oppression? More importantly however, I would argue that critics of the abaya and similar garments are driven more by islamophobia than women's rights. If we truly care about women's rights and freeing women from oppression, there are a myriad of other polices and cultural traits, both domestic and international, that we ought to resist, the reversal of which would have much greater effect than banning head scarves. Rather than ban head scarves, lets ban cheerleaders at professional sports events. Rather than ban head scarves, let's legislate equal representation of women on corporate boards. Rather than ban head scarves, let's sanction states such as Saudi Arabia that institutionalize the discrimination (not to mention human rights abuses) that we find so offensive, rather than targeting women themselves.
33
I am puzzled as well. Nobody is forcing people to buy these clothes! Affording them is probably not possible for most people. The companies making them want to make money so they are creating all kinds of fashions for as many markets as they can think of. I totally agree that there are many more issues of women's equality about which people should concern themselves, like equal pay for equal work no matter what you are wearing.
4
I don't know about specifically buying these clothes, but if you don't know their situation at home, how do you know whether they are being forced to dress a certain way?
8
It was a way to show respect to local customs where women dressed conservatively. I respected that and I had no problem with that. There is an Arabic saying that goes "Your freedom ends where others' begins".
I moved to the US in my 20's. I love the US way of life in the way that people in general live and let live. But unfortunately, we have been losing this sense of American culture recently due to political and geographical reasons.
In my late 20's, I became more conservative in my way of dressing not because my husband wanted me too but because I chose to. God gave me a body that I need to protect and honor and that is the how I believe I need to do that. And I continue to respect all Women's preferences to dress, I am friend with women from different backgrounds, color and looks. What matters the most is the inside not the outside!
We can't generalize and say Muslim women cover because they are oppressed. This statement is completely wrong, baseless and is the result of negative mass media. If you claim this is right? how many Muslim countries have you been to and how many women have you spoken to come up with this conclusion.
Peace!