My now-ex-husband was arrested in September of 2014 on charges of aggravated assault with a deadly weapon after I called the police. A felony charge. 16 months later he was sentenced to time-served (the 10 days that he sat in jail until someone bailed him out) for a Class A Misdemeanor of Deadly Conduct. That very day he could go out and purchase a gun. And the judge never met asked to meet me. Lawyers worked it out. What a joke!
7
"Mr. Uribe became enraged at a relationship Mrs. Saavedra was having with another man, who described that relationship to police"
And that relationship was?
And that relationship was?
3
WE don't have permanent residential facilities for our mentally ill. Those with
insurance are "cured" or considered, under control, when insurance runs out, usually 3 weeks. They're given drugs and told to take those drugs, which often have discomforting side effects. They may or may not take them. Our prisons are filled with the criminal and the mentally ill.
There is a very pressing need to securely house those that present a threat to society. We are failing our people by letting the sick in our midst, people our midst.
insurance are "cured" or considered, under control, when insurance runs out, usually 3 weeks. They're given drugs and told to take those drugs, which often have discomforting side effects. They may or may not take them. Our prisons are filled with the criminal and the mentally ill.
There is a very pressing need to securely house those that present a threat to society. We are failing our people by letting the sick in our midst, people our midst.
1
When are we going to teach our girls that intelligent self-preservation is indeed their obligation to themselves?
In a perfect world, every possible social service would be available to every resident of this this country. We would not divert government funds into useless wars and we'd have an advocate for every abused person.
That world isn't here and it's not coming anytime soon. There's an often dangerous and sometime fatal chasm between "what ought to be" and "what is."
Even in poor rural parts of Mexico, girls like Nadia Saavedra watch telenovelas and imported US programs. They know there is a world outside the confines of their villages and they see women making different choices. They even see examples of poor women, like themselves, making different choices.
She was, as some others have noted, a beautiful girl. Why did she marry a useless piece of garbage like Mr. Uribe? Was she pushed to do so by relatives who wanted to hop on the train of her wedding dress and get to NY too? Were her parents hoping for nice remittances sent regularly from Nadia's new home?
As I have noted in a comment elsewhere here, even in very challenging cultures, individuals make choices that are good, or bad. Not every woman believes herself to be a donkey even when others attempt to treat her so. Not every poor mother allows a drunken husband to beat their children.
In a perfect world, every possible social service would be available to every resident of this this country. We would not divert government funds into useless wars and we'd have an advocate for every abused person.
That world isn't here and it's not coming anytime soon. There's an often dangerous and sometime fatal chasm between "what ought to be" and "what is."
Even in poor rural parts of Mexico, girls like Nadia Saavedra watch telenovelas and imported US programs. They know there is a world outside the confines of their villages and they see women making different choices. They even see examples of poor women, like themselves, making different choices.
She was, as some others have noted, a beautiful girl. Why did she marry a useless piece of garbage like Mr. Uribe? Was she pushed to do so by relatives who wanted to hop on the train of her wedding dress and get to NY too? Were her parents hoping for nice remittances sent regularly from Nadia's new home?
As I have noted in a comment elsewhere here, even in very challenging cultures, individuals make choices that are good, or bad. Not every woman believes herself to be a donkey even when others attempt to treat her so. Not every poor mother allows a drunken husband to beat their children.
4
PShe was a child bride from impoverished rural village. This notion that watching a few Telenovas should have given her a sense of choices available is absurd.
9
In the West “honor killings” manifest as such psychological pathologies as intimate partner stalking, similarly characterized by extreme rage at and possessiveness over another individual, usually a female, one too often resulting in the terrorizing and even death of the victimized party (and conceptualized by the aggressor as being deserved, justified, brought upon themselves by the victim). Try telling an ex-partner stalker or an enraged “dishonored” father that by seeking to reassert control, castigate, or even kill the girl or woman seeking to disengage and flee from their masculinity-based control that they are transgressing said person's women’s/human rights and you might as well be speaking to them in ancient Sanskrit: it simply will not register, the subconsciously ingrained sense of an overriding right to possession and control is so deep as to be, by many clinical criteria, pathological. The connection between both phenomena: the sense of indignity, aggrievement, of being fundamentally and even providentially in the right, the obsessive possessiveness and rage are classic syndromes in both cases, and in both cases they render the victim into an un-human “other,” a pure target of male vengeance. There is also the projective, deflective, compensatory element in both phenomena that serve precisely as cause, means, and conduit for accepting no fault, no wrong, no error or willingness/ability for reflection regarding their detrimental role in the relationship.
2
When are psychiatrists and social workers going to recognize the obvious signs of impending violence? This guy made 17 cuts to represent the years of his relationship. He threatened suicide which frequently means murder-suicide these days. He was so violent that the wife got a restraining order, which is not worth the paper it's written on, but even that wasn't delivered. How is it that none of the so-called professionals in mental health did not see the obvious signs? To make it easier for them, it is time to open up those psychiatric hospitals where inmates were incarcerated against their will to protect their relatives and the public. Maybe if they had more time to observe the patients they could come to the right conclusion occasionally.
2
People who say this has nothing to do with Mexican cultural norms, especially for lower-income, rural people, have never lived in Mexico. This is a very macho culture where women are not treated well--they are basicaly work-horses and breeders, expected to do 99% of the work at all times while the men get to do nothing except occupy their exalted status at men. I recall many times seeing a couple walking along the roads in the riuual areas when the man walked empty-handed while the woman carried a heavy burden. In one case in town, a woman was carrying a heavy TV up a steep hill while the man walked in front empty-handed and oblivious. You may say it's the same in USA and maybe it is, but there it is out in the open and accepted, whereas here it is not.
10
When I watch reality crime shows, 3 or 4 each week, I'm amazed at how many young women agree on one final meeting with their estranged boyfriend or husband "because I owe him that much," to let him down easy, etc. It's often a last, fatal mistake. Many police depts. have a "safe zone" in their parking lots, with video, for online swappers to buy or trade items without getting robbed or abducted. That should be where any teary final meeting with Mr. Wonderful should occur. Or in a busy coffee shop, preferably with a friend sitting nearby.
Case in point: A classmate of my daughter, Melanie D., age 27, lets her Hispanic boyfriend come to her family home for one final plea that she continue their failed relationship. Her dad and brother are sleeping just down the hallway, at about 11 pm. The boyfriend chokes Melanie to death in the kitchen, silently, and flees to Mexico. Her body was found at breakfast. He was returned to jail here a few weeks later. Her mistake was not asking her brother or father to stay awake with their door open during the meeting, in my sad opinion.
Case in point: A classmate of my daughter, Melanie D., age 27, lets her Hispanic boyfriend come to her family home for one final plea that she continue their failed relationship. Her dad and brother are sleeping just down the hallway, at about 11 pm. The boyfriend chokes Melanie to death in the kitchen, silently, and flees to Mexico. Her body was found at breakfast. He was returned to jail here a few weeks later. Her mistake was not asking her brother or father to stay awake with their door open during the meeting, in my sad opinion.
3
No, her second mistake was agreeing to one last meet with the boyfriend. The first mistake was choosing this psycho as a boyfriend at all. She should not have to rely on male relatives for protection.
9
I do t know about abusive relationships, but as it relates to infidelity, I'm surprised it doesn't happen more often.
The MEN who run our country just don't care about women.
In many ways we are NO DIFFERENT than he Taliban or ISIS...although we think because we do NOTHING we are somehow better than them.
In many ways we are NO DIFFERENT than he Taliban or ISIS...although we think because we do NOTHING we are somehow better than them.
2
Much of the country is run by women, elected ones, and appointed ones, and ones who married well and fill the media. Where ya been?
3
Everyone, especially young girls and women, should read Gavin de Becker's The Gift of Fear. Among many other subjects, he talks about why orders of protection rarely work. Most of all, he tells you what to do to avoid getting into situations that would make you a victim. I listened to this book several years ago and think of it every time I read a story like this.
3
Here is more about the book. It is mostly about detecting con artists and sociopaths.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Gift_of_Fear
I wanted to see why the author thinks restraining orders don't work, but this reference doesn't say.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Gift_of_Fear
I wanted to see why the author thinks restraining orders don't work, but this reference doesn't say.
3
Tragedy does not describe cases like this. That being said, the number of these events could be dramatically reduced. Social services need to be funded better. It has become the mantra of neocons "signing oaths to *never* raise taxes." Mental health issues need to be addressed on all levels, and yet the elected officials, i.e. the U.S. Congress, in particular, and state legislatures, do not face up to their responsibilities.
From underfunded mental health services, underfunded school systems, decaying infrastructure, traffic-clogged cities in need of mass transit, etc., the system is failing everyone. It's time legislators quit wasting their time on what they champion as moral issues and start dealing with the everyday problems the citizenry are facing.
As tragic as the events are of this story, the real tragedy is the elected officials who are kowtowing to their financial benefactors and not doing the simple job of "serving the people."
From underfunded mental health services, underfunded school systems, decaying infrastructure, traffic-clogged cities in need of mass transit, etc., the system is failing everyone. It's time legislators quit wasting their time on what they champion as moral issues and start dealing with the everyday problems the citizenry are facing.
As tragic as the events are of this story, the real tragedy is the elected officials who are kowtowing to their financial benefactors and not doing the simple job of "serving the people."
American liberals and self-identified "feminists" often insist that women from other, often largely poor, religion-dominated cultures are unable to make free and wise choices for themselves and their families.
Ms. Saavedra was married--apparently with the approval of her family--at 15 to someone who seemed not to be a very desirable life partner--except, perhaps, for the ability to bring her to the US (and this story leaves out essential information about that).
Over three decades ago, I knew an extended family in Pakistan. One sister was desperately poor, married to an office servant, living in very challenging circumstances, and having babies she could not afford even to feed properly. She and her husband had been age 13 and 15, respectively, when they married.
Her sister was married to a man who had a tiny kiosk selling household items. They'd had two children but one had died. The other was a girl of 15. They put all their resources into her education. She dreamed of becoming a doctor. The odds against her were tremendous, but her parents supported her aspirations. There was, in that culture, enormous pressure to marry her off, and she was a very lovely girl. But they cherished her as an individual whose personhood and goals deserved respect.
They were outliers--in their larger family and in their general community. We'd consider them poor but they considered themselves middle-class, in bearing and in aspirations.
It is always about character.
Ms. Saavedra was married--apparently with the approval of her family--at 15 to someone who seemed not to be a very desirable life partner--except, perhaps, for the ability to bring her to the US (and this story leaves out essential information about that).
Over three decades ago, I knew an extended family in Pakistan. One sister was desperately poor, married to an office servant, living in very challenging circumstances, and having babies she could not afford even to feed properly. She and her husband had been age 13 and 15, respectively, when they married.
Her sister was married to a man who had a tiny kiosk selling household items. They'd had two children but one had died. The other was a girl of 15. They put all their resources into her education. She dreamed of becoming a doctor. The odds against her were tremendous, but her parents supported her aspirations. There was, in that culture, enormous pressure to marry her off, and she was a very lovely girl. But they cherished her as an individual whose personhood and goals deserved respect.
They were outliers--in their larger family and in their general community. We'd consider them poor but they considered themselves middle-class, in bearing and in aspirations.
It is always about character.
3
Yes. Plus the cultural factors that profoundly influence outcome.
2
I am angry that the NYT chose a poor immigrant family as an example of domestic violence. Let's keep blaming the poor!
Domestic violence is prevalent in EVERY social class. Studies have shown that three out of every 100 CEOs and hedge fund managers fit the profile for a sociopath. You don't think that the wealthy have any domestic violence? They have good paying jobs. They have money so that's not an issue--right? DV is only in poor communities.
Hogwash! I'm a family doc and I married two abusers. It took 4 years and an escape 5,000 miles away to Hawai'i to get out of #1. But I NEVER filed abuse charges even when he fractured my skull and jaw. He was "connected" and no one believed that HE would ever hurt someone especially the wife he said he "adored"-which was me! I just thought--"Get out of here!" I was able to leave as I had the money to fly away and a profession where it was easy to get a job. And I didn't have children.
Then 12 years later I married ANOTHER abuser. But I didn't leave this spouse. No..see it MUST be MY fault. There was something wrong with ME that I am being hurt like this. So I stayed...and blamed my bruises on falls, fractures on uneven hiking trails, concussions as "I can't believe I fell bike riding!" Then a colleague in the ER said "Enough already' and called in the police. I BEGGED the police to do nothing! Don't hurt him! They put him in handcuffs at HIS company.
He WAS a pillar of the community.Then suicide. All my fault!
Domestic violence is prevalent in EVERY social class. Studies have shown that three out of every 100 CEOs and hedge fund managers fit the profile for a sociopath. You don't think that the wealthy have any domestic violence? They have good paying jobs. They have money so that's not an issue--right? DV is only in poor communities.
Hogwash! I'm a family doc and I married two abusers. It took 4 years and an escape 5,000 miles away to Hawai'i to get out of #1. But I NEVER filed abuse charges even when he fractured my skull and jaw. He was "connected" and no one believed that HE would ever hurt someone especially the wife he said he "adored"-which was me! I just thought--"Get out of here!" I was able to leave as I had the money to fly away and a profession where it was easy to get a job. And I didn't have children.
Then 12 years later I married ANOTHER abuser. But I didn't leave this spouse. No..see it MUST be MY fault. There was something wrong with ME that I am being hurt like this. So I stayed...and blamed my bruises on falls, fractures on uneven hiking trails, concussions as "I can't believe I fell bike riding!" Then a colleague in the ER said "Enough already' and called in the police. I BEGGED the police to do nothing! Don't hurt him! They put him in handcuffs at HIS company.
He WAS a pillar of the community.Then suicide. All my fault!
8
Well, sorry, Nuschler, but you did have an obligation to stand up for yourself.
I came from a highly-dysfunctional family with an alcoholic father from one of those "good" ethnic groups where "these things don't happen" and at a time when no one talked about "these things" anyway. My father used to beat me with a belt and my mother did nothing.
Finally, at 15, after my father'd beaten me with a coat hanger and left six-inch bruises on my leg (which showed clearly when I wore my gym uniform in school), I told him if he ever touched me again, I'd kill him in his sleep.
He never touched me again.
I had plenty of "self-esteem" problems and had two difficult marriages. I accepted plenty of emotional abuse. But I never let anyone lay a finger on me, after the age of 15. That was the deal-breaker. The emotional abuse ought to have been a deal-breaker too, but that was more insidious and took longer for me to understand. But a physical threat? Needs no interpretation.
We are indeed responsible for our own choices. We are not oxen, bowing our heads to the lash.
I came from a highly-dysfunctional family with an alcoholic father from one of those "good" ethnic groups where "these things don't happen" and at a time when no one talked about "these things" anyway. My father used to beat me with a belt and my mother did nothing.
Finally, at 15, after my father'd beaten me with a coat hanger and left six-inch bruises on my leg (which showed clearly when I wore my gym uniform in school), I told him if he ever touched me again, I'd kill him in his sleep.
He never touched me again.
I had plenty of "self-esteem" problems and had two difficult marriages. I accepted plenty of emotional abuse. But I never let anyone lay a finger on me, after the age of 15. That was the deal-breaker. The emotional abuse ought to have been a deal-breaker too, but that was more insidious and took longer for me to understand. But a physical threat? Needs no interpretation.
We are indeed responsible for our own choices. We are not oxen, bowing our heads to the lash.
3
Not Mark...
Thanks for sharing. You are absolutely right. DV occurs across class, race, religion and nationality...though it may show up differentlay in different cultures, and maybe more prevalent or more serious in some. Certain kinds of DV might even be normalized in some cultures, religions and regions of the world.
But DV DOES occur in rich families and communities. And in rich families it is harder to identify because power and privilege might protect the perpetrator far longer than in poor communities where fights come into the open. What does make a difference is education and culture. DV is less among the highly educated and people of certain cultures where ill treatment of women is forbidden. Cultures where drinking, gun ownership and male authority is high, including in poitics, DV and rape tends to be high. Deeply held beliefs in male superiority and female inferiority or female obedience also contributes to DV. Cross cultural mixing does not always reduce DV. We don'the have enough research on that. Thanks for sharing.
Thanks for sharing. You are absolutely right. DV occurs across class, race, religion and nationality...though it may show up differentlay in different cultures, and maybe more prevalent or more serious in some. Certain kinds of DV might even be normalized in some cultures, religions and regions of the world.
But DV DOES occur in rich families and communities. And in rich families it is harder to identify because power and privilege might protect the perpetrator far longer than in poor communities where fights come into the open. What does make a difference is education and culture. DV is less among the highly educated and people of certain cultures where ill treatment of women is forbidden. Cultures where drinking, gun ownership and male authority is high, including in poitics, DV and rape tends to be high. Deeply held beliefs in male superiority and female inferiority or female obedience also contributes to DV. Cross cultural mixing does not always reduce DV. We don'the have enough research on that. Thanks for sharing.
1
@Nuschler - Bear in mind that the NYT did not "choose" to write about domestic violence in a poor, immigrant family - at least not directly.
Rather, they chose to focus on each individual homicide in this specific precinct throughout 2016; this precinct was among the top three in homicides last year.
So they may have indirectly and unintentionally "chosen" to write about these particular circumstances, but only insofar as they chose to shine a light on this precinct's homicides. It just so happens, sadly, that the murder of a poor, immigrant woman is one of those 2016 homicides.
Rather, they chose to focus on each individual homicide in this specific precinct throughout 2016; this precinct was among the top three in homicides last year.
So they may have indirectly and unintentionally "chosen" to write about these particular circumstances, but only insofar as they chose to shine a light on this precinct's homicides. It just so happens, sadly, that the murder of a poor, immigrant woman is one of those 2016 homicides.
1
This story made me reflect on my own marriage, and be thankful that despite the ups and downs, I never took out my frustrations on my wife. The city needs to strengthen it's effort to help people trapped in poverty and joblessness. It takes a lot of strength to hold yourself together when you can't provide for your family; many men run or lash out if they stay. If the city focused more effort on job training and job creation, it would help at least some men maintain their family with dignity, instead of falling into depression and hostility.
4
By "the city" you mean taxpayers must be forced to provide charity to poor people who decide they need to live in one of the most expensive cities in the world? No thanks.
4
Remember Nicole Simpson's 911 call reporting O.J.'s violence, played at his trial:
"I know you know this is not the first time I have called for help."
She had the money to get out and presumably get protection, and it still did not help.
"I know you know this is not the first time I have called for help."
She had the money to get out and presumably get protection, and it still did not help.
11
Anne: Nicole Brown Simpson's family was quite eager for her to not derail the money train they all benefited from.
I doubt that OJ changed significantly from the day after the honeymoon to the day he murdered her. But Nicole had two children with him.
If women would leave after the first slap or punch, rather than after a decade or more of abuse, fewer children would be born into harmful families and women would find it much easier to extricate themselves from bad situations.
If he hits you and you stay, he considers it permission to keep hitting you.
Too many couples do the emotionally disturbed tango together. It always ends badly.
I doubt that OJ changed significantly from the day after the honeymoon to the day he murdered her. But Nicole had two children with him.
If women would leave after the first slap or punch, rather than after a decade or more of abuse, fewer children would be born into harmful families and women would find it much easier to extricate themselves from bad situations.
If he hits you and you stay, he considers it permission to keep hitting you.
Too many couples do the emotionally disturbed tango together. It always ends badly.
2
There are jurisdictions in this country where you won't be issued a restraining order after build a stack of complaint files six inches tall. "The next time I see you here I will issue a restraining order" means nothing to these miscreants, but the judges don't care..
1
When will we realize that "Orders of Protection" are heard by the abuser as "Go kill her" ?
When will we realize that nothing can save a "victim" other than a procedure such as the "Witness Protection Program" which the government offers to remunerate those giving "testimony" in Mafia cases ?
When will we realize that nothing can save a "victim" other than a procedure such as the "Witness Protection Program" which the government offers to remunerate those giving "testimony" in Mafia cases ?
9
My heart breaks for the Uribe family, especially Naiyel and Uri. I would be interested in knowing how they are doing now.
Alcoholism and mental illness seem to run through most of these stories, seemingly harder to cure than cancer, yet a true cancer on Human lives.
Alcoholism and mental illness seem to run through most of these stories, seemingly harder to cure than cancer, yet a true cancer on Human lives.
5
This is an example of a sick system. There is an unfortunate alliance between a health insurance system that is seeking to deny payment and a medical system where clinicians seek to discharge new uninsured cases as quickly as possible because they don't have the resources to do anything else.
It's sad but it is business as usual until people realize health care is not a business.
It's sad but it is business as usual until people realize health care is not a business.
2
two decades ago, I spent eight years working in a battered women's shelter in a semi-rural area of PA, counseling and doing community education work. It amazes me that so very little has changed. As usual, friends and neighbors who were aware of what was happening sat on their duffs and kept their mouths shut. Then Uribe was hospitalized and released despite the fact that he was clearly a danger to himself and others. Why? The PFA was never served because a traumatized victim was expected to notify the authorities. In neither case did it appear that the hospital or the court had an arrangement to have domestic violence or victim advocates available to assist her. Further, laws have been passed and police policies have been upgraded in many places to allow police to directly charge abusers when there is clear evidence that they have harmed their victims, relieving women of being blamed by the abuser. This is insane--and in a supposedly sophisticated place like NYC? It has been know for over 25 years that the most dangerous time for a victim of DV is when she decides to leave her abuser. When authorities are aware that a split is happening they should take additional precautions to ensure victim safety. In a country where it has become acceptable to imprison people just for thinking of a crime, surely we can do more than this, at every level.
24
Lilibet, thank you for your service. My wife, soon to be my ex, is a remarkable woman, who rescued many victims when the term DV did not exist in many communities, and shelters did not exist. She told me that many victims became homeless, or runaway wives. Some women were battered to death, and some women faced re-victimization by the police, clergy, family members...who either did not understand the problem, or expected women to be good sacrificing wives and cope with it. Our Conservative men continue to be this way. It takes a community, good culture and appropriate policies to raise a child, and to protect, respect and take care of our women and good men. Let us hope we have not come to a world of few good men.
And in a world of macho men and patriarchal cultures men suffer too...and many take it out on their children or women. And many children grow up to repeat the behavior, and the cycle continues. It takes a paradigm shift, and global peace, education, security, fairness and compassionate justice, to make the necessary improvements at the mass level. Such a thing has not even begun in some countries and cultures...even in the US.
May the victim rest in peace, and may her children find love, peace, protection and joy. All our children need and deserve that. And may you strong smart caring women who serve the community on these issues be always protected, respected, admired, rewarded and loved too. I only wish for that.
And in a world of macho men and patriarchal cultures men suffer too...and many take it out on their children or women. And many children grow up to repeat the behavior, and the cycle continues. It takes a paradigm shift, and global peace, education, security, fairness and compassionate justice, to make the necessary improvements at the mass level. Such a thing has not even begun in some countries and cultures...even in the US.
May the victim rest in peace, and may her children find love, peace, protection and joy. All our children need and deserve that. And may you strong smart caring women who serve the community on these issues be always protected, respected, admired, rewarded and loved too. I only wish for that.
1
I have not read all 425 comments. But one thing stood out to me. I do not understand why when an order of protection is issued by a court in the Bronx (or elsewhere) that fact is not immediately communicated to the precinct of residence and the precinct of employment of the person obtaining that order.
The 40th's detective squad commander's comment that he wished they had known about Mr. Uribe's abuse of Ms. Saaveda reports a fixable issue. I'm not saying that she would still be alive if the precinct had gotten such a notice, but maybe they would have sent a Spanish speaking officer to see her and learned enough to justify intervening more drastically.
The 40th's detective squad commander's comment that he wished they had known about Mr. Uribe's abuse of Ms. Saaveda reports a fixable issue. I'm not saying that she would still be alive if the precinct had gotten such a notice, but maybe they would have sent a Spanish speaking officer to see her and learned enough to justify intervening more drastically.
4
I knew a kind and gentle man who was abused by his wife. But, because the vast majority of abuse cases are by men against their wives, no one believed that he, much taller than she, could possibly be the abused, not the abuser. She made his life hell, threw away his books and other possessions, alienated some of his friends (he was very well known in the science fiction community). He was finally able to get legal help, get a divorce, and go on with his life.
13
She didn't kill him? He's ahead of the game, then.
There are men who are abused by their wives or girlfriends, of course. Trying to think if Ihave ever read about such a man being murdered by his abuser because he wanted to leave the relationship.
There are men who are abused by their wives or girlfriends, of course. Trying to think if Ihave ever read about such a man being murdered by his abuser because he wanted to leave the relationship.
6
"About two in five of all victims of domestic violence are men, contradicting the widespread impression that it is almost always women who are left battered and bruised, a new report claims.
Men assaulted by their partners are often ignored by police, see their attacker go free and have far fewer refuges to flee to than women."
http://www.theguardian.com/society/2010/sep/05/men-victims-domestic-viol...
Some research say that half of all domestic abuse is the wife abusing the husband.
"According to a 2010 national survey by the Centers for Disease Control and Department of Justice, in the last 12 months MORE MEN" than women were victims of intimate partner physical violence and over 40% of severe physical violence was directed at men. Men were also more often the victim of psychological aggression and control over sexual or reproductive health.
"Despite this, few services are available to male victims of intimate partner violence."
http://www.saveservices.org/2012/02/cdc-study-more-men-than-women-victim...
Andrew, your "kind and gentle" friend has plenty of company. We live in a very violent society. And yes men ARE abused. But who will believe them?
The comments here are angry that "It's the women who are abused!!"
Until the CDC is allowed to study violence including ownership of all weapons, we will never REALLY understand the dynamics of domestic violence. We have pre-conceived notions and cultural biases that cloud the real picture.
Men assaulted by their partners are often ignored by police, see their attacker go free and have far fewer refuges to flee to than women."
http://www.theguardian.com/society/2010/sep/05/men-victims-domestic-viol...
Some research say that half of all domestic abuse is the wife abusing the husband.
"According to a 2010 national survey by the Centers for Disease Control and Department of Justice, in the last 12 months MORE MEN" than women were victims of intimate partner physical violence and over 40% of severe physical violence was directed at men. Men were also more often the victim of psychological aggression and control over sexual or reproductive health.
"Despite this, few services are available to male victims of intimate partner violence."
http://www.saveservices.org/2012/02/cdc-study-more-men-than-women-victim...
Andrew, your "kind and gentle" friend has plenty of company. We live in a very violent society. And yes men ARE abused. But who will believe them?
The comments here are angry that "It's the women who are abused!!"
Until the CDC is allowed to study violence including ownership of all weapons, we will never REALLY understand the dynamics of domestic violence. We have pre-conceived notions and cultural biases that cloud the real picture.
3
What you describe is not domestic violence.
Anyone who cuts themselves is mentally unstable. Everything else is a symptom of that fact.
6
Society, even a mythically civilized one like ours, can no more stop this kind of domestic violence-especially among poor, often desperate, borderline-barbaric citizens--than we can provide decent jobs, wages or health care, let alone a basic sense of stability or financial security, or hope for an improved future, to millions of hard-working people already "playing by the rules", despite the harsh reality that those "rules" seem to have gone up in smoke a while ago, at least for large segments of our society.
If this tragedy isn't another hard example of the utter failure of both the immigration and mental health systems, especially in urban areas densely populated by foreign, usually chronically poor immigrants, I don't know what would be. That neither is remotely close to being improved, let alone "fixed", is a testament to the perpetually inept, broken government we have, and perhaps deserve.
If this tragedy isn't another hard example of the utter failure of both the immigration and mental health systems, especially in urban areas densely populated by foreign, usually chronically poor immigrants, I don't know what would be. That neither is remotely close to being improved, let alone "fixed", is a testament to the perpetually inept, broken government we have, and perhaps deserve.
1
Undocumented victims of domestic violence can become legal residents by assisting in the conviction of their abusers.
1
Why would they not document the violence?
Society enables abuse because there is no treatment or consequence or prevention. Victims in shelters are a band aide for a very large and ugly societal wound. The abuser must decide to stop. The abuser is the problem and so is our collective silence.
4
Something like this happened in my mother's family in 1939 when she was 5 years old. It profoundly affected my mother and we feel the effects of it daily still.
7
People don't like to say this, but it is cultural. Over the last thirty years time and again stories in the news of women from a Latin culture, say enough and then the guy kills the or injures the wife/girlfriend. Quite often they flee back to their birth country for safety, the cowards. It seems they think wives are like livestock rather then an equal partner. I have dated several Latino women who talked about the harassment they get from their ex spouse/former boyfriend about "ownership". Don't know how you stop it.
5
First off, there are many different types of 'Latin' cultures, and while someone from a small village in certain Latin American countries may be more prone to this thinking, that certainly doesn't mean it applies to most men in their particular country, never mind all the other more developed/forward-thinking countries throughout Latin America and in Spain.
Also, are you implying that an equal number of men from other racial groups don't also do the same? There are plenty of stories in the news...it's not just Latin men.
Also, are you implying that an equal number of men from other racial groups don't also do the same? There are plenty of stories in the news...it's not just Latin men.
2
Yes, it is cultural. This kind of violence exists in any culture that includes men and women.
9
While my heart weeps for yet another woman, I know this happens cross-culturally because the men have been enabled by laws making women no better than livestock around the globe, unable to attend school, hold property, vote, speak the truth to power. It happened to me 50 years ago, but I was lucky enough to escape and go to law school to find out why it was possible for this violence to happen here, in the United States, with no recourse but for me to run away with my baby. Much has changed since then--programs with counseling and shelters and legal help exist that are often successful in providing effective assistance to the terrorized women. However, after working with several of those programs over the years, it has become clear to me that the victim mentality in many women, as intractable as the dominance driving the violent men, precludes admitting their "shame" or seeking help or learning self-defense or taking evasive action. I am sorry to say there is no help for that by police or programs or laws...but re-education of grown women and raising our new generations of daughters to be strong and proud. We're getting there more slowly than I thought we would but I see proof of strength in young women every day that tells me it's better. One other thought: obtaining a restraining order can be effective in some cases, but in my experience the police often can't possibly be there fast enough to protect against a determined crazed man...and a woman needs to know that up front.
1
Any victim of partner domestic violence in NYC can visit the Family Justice Center.
http://www.nyc.gov/html/ocdv/html/help/fjc.shtml
http://www.nyc.gov/html/ocdv/html/help/fjc.shtml
3
I applaud the NYT for this coverage, it brings to light a number of issues regarding violence that need to be addressed. Decisions need to be made each day by a number of agencies that exist in part to reduce violence and the harm to potential victims, decisions based around estimated risk. There are potential errors associated with the decisions themselves, whether the risk is great enough to use resources to attempt to head a potentially violent situation, and perhaps the weighting of such decisions needs to be reconsidered in the light of the number of cases of violence. A murder is the tip of the iceberg with such actions, as there are many more injuries, and yet more threats. One needs to address the base in order to reduce the number of murders at the tip, by considering any threats as serious and especially any violent actions as very serious, and worthy of being seriously addressed.
Another reason for taking such threats seriously is that as the article notes a weapon available in every household was used. In NY as well as across the country knives are used in about five times more homicides than rifles of all types, much less 'assault weapons'. If part of the effort expended on assault weapon bans were instead directed towards the threat of violence, domestic violence included, we would see more reductions in the threats, injuries, and the homicides that occur across the country.
Another reason for taking such threats seriously is that as the article notes a weapon available in every household was used. In NY as well as across the country knives are used in about five times more homicides than rifles of all types, much less 'assault weapons'. If part of the effort expended on assault weapon bans were instead directed towards the threat of violence, domestic violence included, we would see more reductions in the threats, injuries, and the homicides that occur across the country.
2
Domestic abuse is not limited to certain socioeconomic groups, but, The combination of poverty, low education, patriarchal society, limited options (employment, leaving, support), early and often pregnancy, is always going to doom certain segments of society to this situation.
Our open border immigration situation encourages people to come here who are not prepared for a modern society. We do them and our society no favors by facilitating this.
Our open border immigration situation encourages people to come here who are not prepared for a modern society. We do them and our society no favors by facilitating this.
9
So then how to explain, Mr. Trump, all the other abusers in our midst, who didn't get here by 'crossing the border'?
1
The chilling fact is that a very large percentage of women murdered are killed by their current or former intimate partner. And this amounts to a death toll of thousands each year. A couple of friends have mine have narrowly escaped similar fates to Ms Saavedra (in one case, she ran and the shot missed, in the other she knocked him out with a table lamp).
Fellow men, if you want to know why women are often wary of the men in their lives, this is why. You present a very real danger to them, every single day. Domestic abuse hurts everybody, not just the victims.
Fellow men, if you want to know why women are often wary of the men in their lives, this is why. You present a very real danger to them, every single day. Domestic abuse hurts everybody, not just the victims.
11
We continue to ask, Why doesn't she leave? A more useful question to work from is, Why doesn't he stop? How do you stop someone from hitting his/her intimate partner? Talk to them starting when they are in middle school. To stop the cycle of violence, and it is an escalating cycle, age appropriate classes in healthy relationships need to be part of every child's education. The article didn't share it, but the national domestic violence hotline is a place for assistance and knowledge: www.ndvh.org
6
Mr. Uribe allowed obsession with his wife to overwhelm every other feeling and responsibility. Who knows if community support for men prone to violence would have helped, but such support groups should be available and promoted in every vulnerable community via social services. Likewise, women should have access to help where they can talk freely and receive support. As a last resort safe houses should also be available for women and children. Lastly, thoughts are with the children here. No child should have witnessed what they saw.
8
I'm grateful that he didn't kill the children as well. We read about that all too often.
1
What happened to the children, the living victims of their fathers crime?
3
I have never understood why the U.S. searches the globe for terrorists while horrific violence exists right here at home…in the Bronx and nearly everyplace else.
2
I personally feel a bit more at risk from terrorism than from my spouse stabbing me 13 times. I am happy the police are focusing on that.
4
Ross, you may feel that way but the chance of an incpdividual in the US to be a victim of terrorism is absolutely infinitesimal. To be a victim of violence--domestic, gun, street, public transit... You and many of us may not likely be victims of domestic violence. But a much larger percentage of people will fall victim to domestic violence than terrorism. Not to mention, situations change. Even in FAmilies not previously marked by violence and other abuse, elder abuse may emerge. The vast majority of abusers are family members or caregivers. There really is no absolute immunity.
I often keep track of Murder/Suicides via google to share on the Twitter TL #gunsense. We have a real problem in this country concerning domestic abuse in that we don't take it seriously enough. Many of our mass shootings happen with in the home. Senator Blumenthal presented a Bill named after a woman Lori Jackson in 2014 this would have helped. There are many ways we can help if we'd actually take power away from the NRA, admonish judges who often throw women back to the wolf, speak about this in schools, children live in silence I know I did. The reason I focus on guns is because the majority of murder/suicides are by guns rarely are they stabbings, I've seen poisoning once. What's really sick and new because there are now clear differences in states regarding guns people using other methods and the gun zealots point this out as if the other way of killing is inhumane.
9
Yes indeed, the most dangerous time for an abused spouse is when her abuser is ordered from the home, thus losing his power over her. My beautiful mother endured endured 20 years of escalating physical abuse from my undiagnosed bipolar engineer father, including attacks on my little brother and me (from age 11). Never a divorce in her family, and my father promising never to do this again (typical), my mother did her best to cope. Finally, at age 52, after another bout of Dad's rage, Mom got an attorney and a court order for Dad to leave the home. Ten minutes before the order went into effect, Dad choked her to death, at 7:50 a.m. on Friday, February 10, 1967. Because my father was mentally ill, he never was charged with murder, and put on lithium he lived 30 more years. Mental illness is a huge factor in domestic violence. When he was sane, Dad was a gentle, loving man. When crazy, he was a demon. Dr. Jekyll/Mr. Hyde syndrome. The rest of his life he denied he ever lifted a hand to any of us, and he believed this.
32
I am sorry for the hell you endured. Assistance for domestic violence is grossly inadequate today; in 1967 it was even more so. I don't understand why law enforcement somehow sees a difference between a domestic violence episode, and the same kind of violence perpetrated by a complete stranger. Violence is violence, no matter who it involves, and the abuser should be charged no differently than a stranger. Abusing a family member does not make it any less violent.
Thank you for sharing your story.
Thank you for sharing your story.
4
I had a I knew a woman whose mother murdered her father after he had beaten her too often. The woman, as a child, heard the gunshots and rushed in. This was in the Philippes. Her mother went to prison. This woman, some fifteen years later, was still struggling to put the pieces of her life back together.
I still remember another woman, very soft-spoken, who came for a job interview as babysitter. After some questioning, she admitted she and her daughters were hiding from an abusive spouse who had threatened to kill all three of them. She said she could not legally change her name without alerting him--he was a lawyer--and thus could get no drivers license or papers. She was there through an underground. I could not hire her and put my child's life at risk.
Some here suggest putting the abusive man in prison. That has been shown to have some deterrent effect if done the first time the police are called. Otherwise, the woman is safe only until the man's prison term ends. I hope others can come up with a better solution than I. I do think Reagan's laws re mental health issues and involuntary institutionalizations should be reconsidered.
I still remember another woman, very soft-spoken, who came for a job interview as babysitter. After some questioning, she admitted she and her daughters were hiding from an abusive spouse who had threatened to kill all three of them. She said she could not legally change her name without alerting him--he was a lawyer--and thus could get no drivers license or papers. She was there through an underground. I could not hire her and put my child's life at risk.
Some here suggest putting the abusive man in prison. That has been shown to have some deterrent effect if done the first time the police are called. Otherwise, the woman is safe only until the man's prison term ends. I hope others can come up with a better solution than I. I do think Reagan's laws re mental health issues and involuntary institutionalizations should be reconsidered.
7
I have thought of this too, often. If the abused has obtained an order of protection I suggest that the abuser forfeit they're weapons and spend 3 full days in jail so the abused can do what needs to be done, changing locks, leaving, whatever. If this abuser is a serial abuser which they almost always are and they've been issued more than 2-3 orders of protection then we're talking serious time, 5yrs at the least. They will then be subject to a list like sex offenders are. They have to check in, their names are made public. I am talking serious stuff. It holds everybody accountable even police who 2x's more likely to commit domestic violence. Peace, I am a child survivor.
22
I never saw homeless people in San Jose (except hobos on the rails) until Reagan closed the asylums. Almost 50 years later they are everywhere and in some places you have to step over them. It takes some courage for the average person to walk through St. James Park in San Jose or Market St. in SF at night - and it shouldn't have to.
4
Homeless people are generally pretty harmless. They're at the bottom of the heap. Climate change is more dangerous.
1
This story is about domestic abuse to it's tragic ending. Lots of comments here make it seem as a horrible man vs. perpetual victim woman thing. There are violent people; a lot of men and some women belong to this group of people. The man in this particular case appears to be violent either by nature or nurture, but he definitely is violent. He might as well act like this in any other distressing situation. Contrast this to a typically non-violent person. It take them longer to be angered or even irritated. And facing difficult times, nothing of the sort of reaction we see of violent people, ever surfaces. It's not about men vs women; it's about violent people and their reactions/solutions to perceived problems.
5
Information for male victims of female violence here www.gnvpc.org
1
But it is MOSTLY men who commit domestic violence, and so it is to a large extent about men and their mistreatment of women.
17
The statistics are decidedly not in your favor.
8
As long as a diamond ring, from a man to a woman, is more a source of pride for family and friends as the pinnacle of achievement of a woman rather than her ability to live by herself and be self supportive, as long as an entire society, no matter what country, worries about single women and urges them to date and be married, badgers them when they insist they are happy single and don't see a need for marriage in their lives or even of children that such a sentiment is abnormal, as long as societal pressures all over the world declares "singlehood" untenable and marriage, man to woman, more the norm or more "natural" these killings and bad marriages will continue to happen. Men haven't progressed in vast swaths of the globe, when it comes to their relationship with women. Women are still regarded as possessions to be beaten or subjugated or even murdered at will if seen as disobedient or disrespectful or dishonorable. This guy didn't need a mental hospital. He needed a prison long before this murder. Domestic violence besets Latin cultures and in many countries of Central and South America, men are not even punished by the law for such murders. We have seen the blade runner in South Africa also execute his beautiful girlfriend and insist it was an accident. Endless and stupid, the furor of men who misunderstand manhood to mean sadism.
56
The order of protection should be in place right away. Expecting a victim to make the arrangements seems very odd, especially if don't know or understand how the process works. So many signs missed in this case. So many opportunities to do the right thing.
13
". . . she filed for a temporary order of protection with Bronx Family Court on Jan. 29, after Mr. Uribe cut himself and banged on her door; the order was never served." Why was the order never served? Not serious enough? Who cares?
13
From the article: "By the morning of March 7, the order had not been served. It indicated Ms. Saavedra needed to “arrange” to have it served by contacting the authorities, but police records show that she never did — a reflection of the onus placed on victims to secure their own protection, say counselors who work with domestic violence victims."
Since slavery is dead in this country, we have a system in place where people take the opportunity to leave their home country for the chance to clean our homes, tend to our children, walk our dogs, cut our grass and maintain our automobiles. The biblical wisdom is, he that has little, even that little will be taken from him. As hope decreases with age desperation increases. Unfortunately, this young, relatively good looking woman was not able to lay her husband's fears to rest. We might know a little more of this story if it at least included the line, 'The accused interloper was not available for comment'.
2
"This young, relatively (!) good looking woman was not able to allay her husband's fears."
Plus your hint that somehow the man she became involved with, whom you call "the interloper," would have something relevant to say about this separated, abusive husband butchering his wife.
I would have thought that the agregious facts of this particular case would dissuade even the most determined victim-blamer from spinning it, but not so.
The comment posted here reflects attitudes that are a huge part of the problem.
Plus your hint that somehow the man she became involved with, whom you call "the interloper," would have something relevant to say about this separated, abusive husband butchering his wife.
I would have thought that the agregious facts of this particular case would dissuade even the most determined victim-blamer from spinning it, but not so.
The comment posted here reflects attitudes that are a huge part of the problem.
12
William.....
"Relatively good looking"? She was beautiful. Your prejudice is showing. And, how is a woman with a jealous, rage-driven husband supposed to put his fears to rest?
"Relatively good looking"? She was beautiful. Your prejudice is showing. And, how is a woman with a jealous, rage-driven husband supposed to put his fears to rest?
5
Excuse me, all of you, but what in h*** do you imagine her looks have to do with anything?
The sad part is that most or the folks who write and implement our laws have a profound ignorance of human behavior. Rushing in to arrest somebody or evaluate a crime scene after the fact do not make our society one iota better. What do we do about violent men like this? What makes them different from the vast number of men who love sports or believe might makes right that would not conscience this, and how do we differentiate abusers from people who merely talk tough? Sadly, in this year of elections you will not be hearing candidates talk about this.
4
Oh, now you should watch Dr. Phil!! His wife Robin is doing various things to try to help women who are physically abused by their husbands Go to his website.
Stop promoting marriage... and start encouraging women to stop promoting abuse themselves.
Stop promoting marriage... and start encouraging women to stop promoting abuse themselves.
4
Women are promoting their own abuse by getting married at all?
1
Violence is not exclusive to marriage. You think cohabiting people do not become violent? Marriage may tie people closer economically and by virtue of of children, thus making it more difficult to leave! but larger portions of couples in the US live together without marrying or have children without marriage. The wedding ring does not instantly turn abuse on. Being married may make it more difficult to extricate oneself but marriage is not necessarily the fault here, domestic violence is.
Plus, why would you say women promote abuse by marrying? That is typical "blame the victim" ideology in the guise of liberating women from a potentially harmful institution. What's more, marriage can actually be an institution in which women and men, or women and women, or men and men can flourish.
Yes, marriage can be another aspect of cultural mores that treat women like possessions but it also can be a partnership of equals. Your analysis is overly simplistic.
Plus, why would you say women promote abuse by marrying? That is typical "blame the victim" ideology in the guise of liberating women from a potentially harmful institution. What's more, marriage can actually be an institution in which women and men, or women and women, or men and men can flourish.
Yes, marriage can be another aspect of cultural mores that treat women like possessions but it also can be a partnership of equals. Your analysis is overly simplistic.
1
Some commentators have mentioned and I agree that in the 21st Century, 15 is too young to be married and have children. Nadia Saavedra got married in the 20th Century. The wedding took place in some depressed area of Mexico and Mr. Uribe, age 18 must have seemed like a great catch since they could soon move to the promised land of Bronx, New York. It's mentioned that women shouldn't have children by violent men. How can an immigrant woman resist a man, drinker by habit, given to violence and delusional jealousy.
One thing is glaring; psychiatric evaluation of Mr. Uribe was inadequate and treatment was ineffective.
I have a nagging question. Why don't schools in Mexico and the Central American countries teach English as second language starting in elementary school? Some kind of pride?
One thing is glaring; psychiatric evaluation of Mr. Uribe was inadequate and treatment was ineffective.
I have a nagging question. Why don't schools in Mexico and the Central American countries teach English as second language starting in elementary school? Some kind of pride?
4
I am very sure that the answer has a lot more to do with money then with pride.
1
I don't know what teaching English has to do with domestic violence, Some schools do teach English from the primary grades on through high school, but they are mostly private schools like the ones I attended.
In remote villages like San Pedro Aytec, getting through sixth grade is a major accomplishment. The government provides the text books for primary school, so there is very little cost to the parents. After grade school, you're on your own for school supplies and text books. Parents in these impoverished areas don't have the money to send their children to school beyond sixth grade, so the cycle of poverty continues.
In remote villages like San Pedro Aytec, getting through sixth grade is a major accomplishment. The government provides the text books for primary school, so there is very little cost to the parents. After grade school, you're on your own for school supplies and text books. Parents in these impoverished areas don't have the money to send their children to school beyond sixth grade, so the cycle of poverty continues.
1
I have often wondered why Mexico has not adopted the idea of requiring English language in school. As we have seen, due to the history of colonial Britain in India, they were able to participate in the US outsourcing and expansion of call centers to India which led to IT infrastructure outsourcing that eventually lifted tens of thousands and possibly hundreds of thousands out of poverty. Had we been able to move those jobs to Mexico, we would now not be seeing the drug cartels supremacy in that country, as options for men and women to work in something other than the drug cartels would have been available, lifting them out of poverty instead.
1
Why, in 2016, does this article in several places use the terms 'marital problems' and 'discord' to describe the dynamic between this long-term aggressor and his victim? It's like calling a mugging a 'fight.' In an otherwise excellent piece, these euphemistic words evoke the bad old days when husband-on-wife violence was seen as distinct--more complex and private-- from just plain violence.
27
I think because they have no proof that anything else occurred, no police reports, hospital visits, etc. No friends that witnessed violence or saw bruising, etc.
1
Yes, these are euphemisms for something much darker. But the authors here seem to use the terms at least in part for the perception of others about the relationship, or their terminology for what was going on. Too, domestic violence is "true" violence, of course, not just a lesser form of violence. But it can be more private. And that is part of its scourge. Become violent on the street, in a bar, on the subway. The cops might be called. Become violent at home. You might not even be heard or, if heard, reported.
1
Even at the most basic level - why are we still calling it "domestic abuse?" It puts a label on it that continues to make it seem less horrific than it really is. How many times have we heard: "It's a domestic issue." Let's start calling it what it is. If the wife is not killed, it's attempted murder. If the wife is killed, it's called murder.
50
Because we live in a misogynistic society. Period.
11
This tragic and horrific dance goes on in every social and economic and professional level of our society and is hardly restricted it limited to the poor immigrant or cultural underclass. The former chief of police in Tacoma Washington did the same exact thing not that many years ago when his wife filed for divorce and in wealthy enclaves there are even special discuses and crises hot lines set up for the 'Two and a half acre' estate women to call in on. It's endemic in a dominator, controlling culture, though as with all thing human it's a dance between two entities as well as about loss of control
and 'loss of identity' by the controlling party. In a healthy and more mature or transformed society and culture, this should be the rare exception vs the feared daily reality. The gender and identity wounds are so grave and drastic in many societies that only a rare few are able to escape what one woman psychotherapist called 'The tyranny of couples'. Needless to say this was never real love nor tenderness and intimate mature affection between two caring people. Quite the opposite.
and 'loss of identity' by the controlling party. In a healthy and more mature or transformed society and culture, this should be the rare exception vs the feared daily reality. The gender and identity wounds are so grave and drastic in many societies that only a rare few are able to escape what one woman psychotherapist called 'The tyranny of couples'. Needless to say this was never real love nor tenderness and intimate mature affection between two caring people. Quite the opposite.
13
Here are a couple of quotes from the article: "...He posted photos online of cases of Modelo beer stacked six feet high, and saved his displays of emotion for the makeshift bars where he met friends."
And, "Mr. Uribe preferred getting drunk while bantering about sports with other men, Maitec Saavedra said. In the quieter setting of home, with his wife and children, he grew anxious and lashed out."
Sounds to me like Mr. Uribe was a garden variety drunk, one with a dual- or triple-diagnosis of paranoia or anxiety or depression or worse.
In the name of civil rights we let the severely mentally ill act without brakes, self-medicate with alcohol, and wreak havoc and murder upon their closest family members. When someone is cutting themselves are they not a danger to themselves? Why can't we hold them? There's no money and no space in our world for that.
I suspect the whole thing got worse and worse as his drinking got worse and worse, too. Our health system is really bad with substance abuse and dependency, favoring prosecution over treatment.
I also completely buy the idea - posted her by others - that the women in these stories are just not treated with the credibility they deserve, much like women who report a non-stranger rape are given next-to-no credibility either.
This poor woman died for nothing she did and nothing she did wrong except try to take care of herself and her kids.
And, "Mr. Uribe preferred getting drunk while bantering about sports with other men, Maitec Saavedra said. In the quieter setting of home, with his wife and children, he grew anxious and lashed out."
Sounds to me like Mr. Uribe was a garden variety drunk, one with a dual- or triple-diagnosis of paranoia or anxiety or depression or worse.
In the name of civil rights we let the severely mentally ill act without brakes, self-medicate with alcohol, and wreak havoc and murder upon their closest family members. When someone is cutting themselves are they not a danger to themselves? Why can't we hold them? There's no money and no space in our world for that.
I suspect the whole thing got worse and worse as his drinking got worse and worse, too. Our health system is really bad with substance abuse and dependency, favoring prosecution over treatment.
I also completely buy the idea - posted her by others - that the women in these stories are just not treated with the credibility they deserve, much like women who report a non-stranger rape are given next-to-no credibility either.
This poor woman died for nothing she did and nothing she did wrong except try to take care of herself and her kids.
17
It's not just the severely mentally ill as they raise such obvious red flags as not to be missed by society. It is those with anxiety, poor impulse control and coping skills, anger management issues that we tend to overlook until they do something so drastic as to cause us to take a second look, like this horrific murder. In this culture unemployment, the inability to be the man of the house bringing in the bread takes a greater toll. It is compounded if there is a lower educational level which limits the ability to mentally access a variety of coping skills. Let's face it, in this economy, not many people can miss a half day of work to go to counseling, even if it's free. Unfortunately, in certain cultures, counseling still means you're really not man enough to keep the family together.
10
Every time I read an article like this I think about the Margaret Atwood quote:
Men are afraid that women will laugh at them.
Women are afraid that men will kill them.
Men are afraid that women will laugh at them.
Women are afraid that men will kill them.
85
Never heard that before - excellent.
2
(Not Mark) I've never been afraid that men will kill me. Perhaps that because I was raised to believe in myself and get an education etc. Perhaps it's because I was raised to be around good people, men and women. I know who is worth being with and who is not. There are bad people in the world, but it's not just men that will kill you. Demonizing half the population is idiotic.
1
Lucky you. So if others are not as fortunate as you then it's their own fault whatever happens to them? Even if they grew up with different cultural norms than you have, that they may not be able to fight against as much as they may want to?
2
I am replying to two points brought up in this comment thread. One, why do women stay in violent relationships? What I haven't seen mentioned is fear that their children, other relatives or even beloved pets will be harmed. Men often use threats of harm not against the women, but her loved ones. In cases like this, the potential guilt of possibly causing a loved one's death keeps a woman in a relationship. Also, if she reported the abuser, best case scenario in many places would be that the children would simply be removed from both parents, rather than offering the woman and her children a safe haven. Two - the "stand your ground defense." That's nonsense. Many women in abusive relationships have no control over money - they can't even buy clothes for their kids. And if the woman found a way to acquire a gun, it's likely she couldn't find a place to hide it where her partner wouldn't find it. You think finding that his partner had a gun wouldn't make him angry enough to use it against her? And if she did find a gun and use it, a woman if often arrested and charged with murder for killing her abuser, leaving her children with no parents at all. Right might be on her side, but she's only a woman, who killed a person far more valued in today's society - a man.
34
I suspect the internet has only made the problem worse. In the most grave situation, a woman might leave her job, move out of state, change her name, even her appearance. But with the internet her would-be-killer can find her no matter where she goes. I wonder if any serious research has been done on this.
14
I have read that Facebook is revisiting its policy of only allowing "real names" because of anonymity desired by women hiding from domestic abusers they have left.
2
This is an excellent point.
1
In many states men who have a restraining order levied against them can still possess a firearm. With gun proliferation more police officers are getting shot and killed when they respond to a domestic disturbance. As a society we really need to confront this situation head on and find ways to reduce the deaths and threats of violence. One step would be to make mandatory communication and respect courses required of someone who threatens their spouse. Another step would be to enable some kind of reporting; but again in a way that reduces the threat.
15
That is not an issue in this case. The issue, which is hard to understand, is that in certain cultures, men lay claim to women and expect everyone to honor that claim. It is an ugly, pervasive "ownership " that makes the woman's life miserable. Other men in these cultures do not get involved because they probably have similar ideas about relationships. In Mexico this supposedly exists among the lower classes of mestizo cultures but that is not always true.
11
On the opposite side some states restrict the threatened person for owning a firearm.
Last year a woman in Berlin Township in New Jersey requested a firearms permit because her ex-boyfriend was coming to her home despite court orders not to.
New Jersey law requires the person to receive an answer to the request within 30 days. Two months after her request it was found to be sitting in the police department's inbox. New Jersey is a may issue state and the police are very reluctant to allow anyone to own a firearm.
Her ex-boyfriend confronted her in her driveway and stabbed her multiple times, killing her.
No one should have to die because of a government official's ideology.
Last year a woman in Berlin Township in New Jersey requested a firearms permit because her ex-boyfriend was coming to her home despite court orders not to.
New Jersey law requires the person to receive an answer to the request within 30 days. Two months after her request it was found to be sitting in the police department's inbox. New Jersey is a may issue state and the police are very reluctant to allow anyone to own a firearm.
Her ex-boyfriend confronted her in her driveway and stabbed her multiple times, killing her.
No one should have to die because of a government official's ideology.
12
And I quote: "Even in retrospect, relatives struggled to pinpoint the moment a tumultuous marriage had turned murderous."
Positively Orwellian.
Last I checked, the "marriage" did not murder Ms. Saavedra.
Positively Orwellian.
Last I checked, the "marriage" did not murder Ms. Saavedra.
30
mmm - "Last I checked, the "marriage" did not murder Ms. Saavedra."
In today's society it has to be something other than personal responsibility. It was the marriage, it was the gun, it was poverty, it was lack of opportunity, anything other than than the perpetrator.
In today's society it has to be something other than personal responsibility. It was the marriage, it was the gun, it was poverty, it was lack of opportunity, anything other than than the perpetrator.
9
These women set themselves up for this. The men who do this don't all of a sudden turn violent. Often it starts during dating (though this case sounds like there was not dating - marriage at 15!) But women excuse it because they'll change the guy or marriage will change him. (And the women got to get the ring and white dress and play princess or they'll die.) Then the guy does not change and the women lie to themselves that the guy will change after the baby arrives. (And the women have to have a baby or they'll die. All their friends have babies.Never mind they're having a baby with bum.) Guy does not change. And the women lie to themselves that the guy will change when the next baby arrives, etc. etc. So these women get themselves killed and their children are orphans because the mother just had to play wife and mother even it meant doing it with some no good bum. Is it really worse to remain single than get involve with a bum? Women need to think rather than feel. If they end up spinsters that's better than ending up dead and leaving orphans.
19
The main reason why women stay in these relationships can be seen in the statistics on domestic homicide. A woman who stays with her abuser is not likely to be killed by him until AFTER she leaves him.
The period during which a woman is most likely to be killed by a domestic violence abuser is within the first two years AFTER she succeeds in leaving him.
So please take your lecture about why women stay and how women get themselves killed and file it under "common beliefs about domestic violence that are wrong when compared with the facts on domestic homicide."
The period during which a woman is most likely to be killed by a domestic violence abuser is within the first two years AFTER she succeeds in leaving him.
So please take your lecture about why women stay and how women get themselves killed and file it under "common beliefs about domestic violence that are wrong when compared with the facts on domestic homicide."
31
It is evil to blame her for being slashed to death by this piece of human garbage who was 100% responsible. I suppose you also blame women for being raped? Thousands of women die each year at the hands of violent, evil boyfriends and husbands who are predators and worthless to the human race.
She TRIED to get a restraining order, but the paperwork was too much, and when a woman leaves and takes the kids away from dad, she is blamed by the larger culture for tearing the family apart.
Men like this close in on their women, shrink the world around them, then strike like poisonous spiders after their prey is completely helpless. When the woman tries to leave, they snap and kill. His letter broke down his guilt and gloated about what he planned to do, claiming her as his personal possession here and in the afterlife.
We need to educate men and boys about how to handle the testosterone-fueled rage that sometimes swirls through their bodies and turns 50 year old men into juvenile delinquents. I hope the NYT focuses their research on why our culture lets violent husbands and boyfriends off the hook, accepts their brutality as what men do, and shames the women who die at the hands of the very men who promised to protect them.
She TRIED to get a restraining order, but the paperwork was too much, and when a woman leaves and takes the kids away from dad, she is blamed by the larger culture for tearing the family apart.
Men like this close in on their women, shrink the world around them, then strike like poisonous spiders after their prey is completely helpless. When the woman tries to leave, they snap and kill. His letter broke down his guilt and gloated about what he planned to do, claiming her as his personal possession here and in the afterlife.
We need to educate men and boys about how to handle the testosterone-fueled rage that sometimes swirls through their bodies and turns 50 year old men into juvenile delinquents. I hope the NYT focuses their research on why our culture lets violent husbands and boyfriends off the hook, accepts their brutality as what men do, and shames the women who die at the hands of the very men who promised to protect them.
27
This is such an embarrassingly ignorant response. You obviously have no idea the level of systemic, patriarchal practices at play that enable husbands to kill their wives, and the authorities do nothing to stop it. Blaming the victim shows how little you understand domestic violence.
23
Men like Mr. Uribe are not raised in wilderness camps by aliens and then released onto womankind.
They are born to and mostly raised by women--their mothers, or grandmothers, or aunts. They live in communities filled with women; they go to school with girls; they often grow up to marry young women who grew up beside them.
Far too many commenters here behave as though women are some vast herd of mindless beasts--that to suggest they have brains, and choices, and sometimes choose very badly, is a vile calumny.
When women choose to protect and defend other women; when they stop encouraging abused women to endure that abuse for whatever reason; when mothers and mothers-in-law and sisters and sisters-in-law tell the men in their lives that hitting or terrorizing their families is wrong and unacceptable--then we will have change.
A brief internet search will find many examples--in India, in Africa, in Central America--of what happens when women finally stand up and stand together. It's not a matter of education or of money. It is a matter of character and of will.
How to put an end to awful stories like this one? Raise boys who respect women. Recognize when a child's behavior is troubled--don't make light of bullying or the torturing of animals. Don't allow a boy to be rude to his sisters. Don't shame a woman who wants to leave her husband because of his behavior. Don't say, or think to yourself--I endured it, she can too.
They are born to and mostly raised by women--their mothers, or grandmothers, or aunts. They live in communities filled with women; they go to school with girls; they often grow up to marry young women who grew up beside them.
Far too many commenters here behave as though women are some vast herd of mindless beasts--that to suggest they have brains, and choices, and sometimes choose very badly, is a vile calumny.
When women choose to protect and defend other women; when they stop encouraging abused women to endure that abuse for whatever reason; when mothers and mothers-in-law and sisters and sisters-in-law tell the men in their lives that hitting or terrorizing their families is wrong and unacceptable--then we will have change.
A brief internet search will find many examples--in India, in Africa, in Central America--of what happens when women finally stand up and stand together. It's not a matter of education or of money. It is a matter of character and of will.
How to put an end to awful stories like this one? Raise boys who respect women. Recognize when a child's behavior is troubled--don't make light of bullying or the torturing of animals. Don't allow a boy to be rude to his sisters. Don't shame a woman who wants to leave her husband because of his behavior. Don't say, or think to yourself--I endured it, she can too.
38
Sadly, it sounds like the victim WAS attempting to raise such a son: he physically massacred himself in an attempt to save her, but to what end? Now an orphan, in the country's most expensive city, with younger siblings to think of... this tale is devastating on the most human levels.
8
The point being that boys have no men around to model good male behavior. In fact, most violent adult males have had violent fathers.
4
I am a man, not living in a "rough" neighborhood. I am routinely verbally abused and at least once a month am a victim of physical domestic violence by my wife. The threats keep growing, including pushing down stairs, stabbing, etc. I have never gone to the police. I've sincerely considered it, but there is no way to privately go on the record with the police that I know of. I fear more for my life if my wife did find out that I went to the police. Some day, when the stars align, I will file for divorce and face this head on. For now, I wait it out for many complicated reasons. Please don't just think this is a male abusing women issue. It is not. This thinking is why a lot of men don't come forward. No one will "believe" a man is a victim of DV. I feel for this family and hope my family doesn't face the same fate.
27
So, what are you waiting for? You don't need to wait until the stars align and you apply for a divorce. Man up man! Get outta there, whatever your complicated circumstances. If you have kids and they are also at risk, then take them with you. Leave! Leave now before it's too late!
8
Why not just pack up and leave? If she might kill you for going to the police, doing you think handing her divorce papers might push her over the edge? I'd quickly pack up and leave while she's at work, then hand her the divorce papers in a public place away from your hotel/model or new apartment
5
You have a choice to leave. The hardest thing to do is usually the best thing to do for yourself. You don't have to stay; you always have a choice.
5
'The couple had gotten married ... Ms. Saavedra, 15 at the time, wore a long white dress.'
In the 21st century, in Mexico or in the USA, fifteen is too young to get married, too young to get pregnant and give birth, too young to start a family. Fifteen is too young to be a wife and mother, just as it's too young to be a husband and father.
Bernie Sanders is right on at least one thing in his stump speech. In this era, free state schooling should continue for all kids until at least the end of year 15. Girls (and boys) need to stay in school, trade school or otherwise, until they have gotten themselves a profession, a craft, a trade or a set of skills that will enable them to earn a living, become financially independent and able to stand on their own two feet.
But teenage girls can't easily stay in school, study hard, acquire the necessary skill set if they are pregnant or mothers.
Stopping Mexican American, African American and poor white teenage girls from becoming mothers is the number one thing that can be done to improve the lot of females and males alike, younger and older.
Teens want to have sex. They like having sex. They are programmed in their hardware by millions of years of evolution to have sex. Saying 'no' is not the answer. Sex education in schools, free contraceptives, the morning-after pill, and free medicated and non-medicated terminations in the first two trimesters are the answers.
In the 21st century, in Mexico or in the USA, fifteen is too young to get married, too young to get pregnant and give birth, too young to start a family. Fifteen is too young to be a wife and mother, just as it's too young to be a husband and father.
Bernie Sanders is right on at least one thing in his stump speech. In this era, free state schooling should continue for all kids until at least the end of year 15. Girls (and boys) need to stay in school, trade school or otherwise, until they have gotten themselves a profession, a craft, a trade or a set of skills that will enable them to earn a living, become financially independent and able to stand on their own two feet.
But teenage girls can't easily stay in school, study hard, acquire the necessary skill set if they are pregnant or mothers.
Stopping Mexican American, African American and poor white teenage girls from becoming mothers is the number one thing that can be done to improve the lot of females and males alike, younger and older.
Teens want to have sex. They like having sex. They are programmed in their hardware by millions of years of evolution to have sex. Saying 'no' is not the answer. Sex education in schools, free contraceptives, the morning-after pill, and free medicated and non-medicated terminations in the first two trimesters are the answers.
56
Spot on.
6
Everything you say makes sense BUT you must understand that the Republican Party which controls most state legislatures is vehemently opposed to sex outside of marriage and will refuse to support sex education, free condoms, free morning-after pills etc. They are living in a never never land where abstinence is the only correct preventative of pregnancy. Their minds are closed. Progress is not possible.
9
"In the 21st century, in Mexico or in the USA, fifteen is too young to get married, too young to get pregnant and give birth, too young to start a family. Fifteen is too young to be a wife and mother, just as it's too young to be a husband and father."
Someone should have told my parents this before I was born 2 months after my mother turned 16 and 7 months after my father turned 17. They weren't married then though. He completed his studies in Sheet Metal work at East New York Vocational High School. Mother never graduated. They did marry though and had 7 more children. The marriage was miserable for all compounded by my fathers Paranoid Schizophrenia which required frequent visits to Pilgrim State Hospital when I was younger.
I survived and am married 44 years. My 7 siblings lead the same lives my parents did only they had multiple marriages and divorces and children in jail. All but one married the fathers of their children. She was 15 and he was 36. And my nieces and nephews have continued the past.
People really ought to put more consideration about the future but love makes that difficult.
Someone should have told my parents this before I was born 2 months after my mother turned 16 and 7 months after my father turned 17. They weren't married then though. He completed his studies in Sheet Metal work at East New York Vocational High School. Mother never graduated. They did marry though and had 7 more children. The marriage was miserable for all compounded by my fathers Paranoid Schizophrenia which required frequent visits to Pilgrim State Hospital when I was younger.
I survived and am married 44 years. My 7 siblings lead the same lives my parents did only they had multiple marriages and divorces and children in jail. All but one married the fathers of their children. She was 15 and he was 36. And my nieces and nephews have continued the past.
People really ought to put more consideration about the future but love makes that difficult.
5
This is a huge and terrible problem but before we try to solve it, we have to understand it better. Throwing around meaningless words like "sex objects" or hugely inflated statistics ("every woman is raped") makes the speaker feel good but does nothing to help the victims. First, this kind of murder-suicide is often a crime of powerlessness and cultural dislocation. When Ethiopian Jews relocated to Israel in the 1990s, there was an epidemic of husbands killing their wives and themselves, even though the general crime rate in the community is low. The reason was that the men felt left behind while the women quickly adapted to the new reality and started working and earning money. It is no surprise that the family in this article are immigrants. Second, we should not let women off the hook. A woman who sees the warning signs that her boyfriend is controlling and insecure and yet marries him anyway is courting death. Again, this does not apply to Third World and immigrant families where arranged marriages may be the norm but in the US women have a lot of opportunities to escape violence before it gets to the murderous stage. Most of all - don't have children with violent men! You trap yourself and perpetuate the next generation of domestic abusers.
9
The treatment of women in the United States and the world is horrible. Women are still treated as sex symbols versus human beings in liquor and other types of ads. Hollywood has contributed more than it's fair share to this problem. Hopefully this changes and women will be treated with the love and respected that they deserve. If not, the domestic violence murder rate will continue to climb.
19
Just about every woman I have ever met and had personal talks with has told me that she was raped or molested, usually by a family member. If that is so, and domestic violence is so prevalent, it is something more in our society than just how we respond to a law being broken. We need to look at our school system, or entertainment such as movies, and our mental health industry. not only was I molested at age 3 1/2 but once when I went to a mental health professional, he made advances and threatened me. Luckily no DV. This is going on all over.
30
"Just about every woman I've ever had personal talks with has been raped or molested"?
I would hazard a guess that your circle of acquaintances and friends is not a random sample. People who have similar life issues or problems tend to affiliate.
I am a woman in her mid-50s who has had many life experiences and friends who have shared deep personal confidences with me.
Here is the lifelong tally among my various circles of close friends:
One friend who was date raped back in our college days by a football player classmate.
A few creepy gropings that were successfully slapped away.
This is in no way intended to minimize the seriousness of rape and sexual abuse. But I think that women lose when they start saying things like "we live in a rape culture," which sound to many ears close to an assertion that all men are rapists or potential rapists.
I would hazard a guess that your circle of acquaintances and friends is not a random sample. People who have similar life issues or problems tend to affiliate.
I am a woman in her mid-50s who has had many life experiences and friends who have shared deep personal confidences with me.
Here is the lifelong tally among my various circles of close friends:
One friend who was date raped back in our college days by a football player classmate.
A few creepy gropings that were successfully slapped away.
This is in no way intended to minimize the seriousness of rape and sexual abuse. But I think that women lose when they start saying things like "we live in a rape culture," which sound to many ears close to an assertion that all men are rapists or potential rapists.
4
I agree 100%. I can't think of one woman I know who's told me she'd been raped or molested. Just like when a woman says all the men she meets are nothing but 'total jerks',. or that all the men she's had relationships with were abusive, people then need to look at themselves, and why they seem to attract such negative persons to themselves. Once or twice, ok. But a clear pattern of finding nothing but negative people in your life requires some self-examination.
1
The New York Times helpfully reported that two-thirds of victims were women, but what was the breakdown on the sex of the perpetrators? Name the problem.
32
As soon as they start listing the race of perpetrators of violent crime, I'm with you.
5
I wish the NYT had done a little better research on this story: there are lethality assessments and books out there (written by people like Lundy Bancroft, author of "Why does he do that? inside the minds of angry and controlling men") that clearly show all of the warning signs, the motivations behind the perpetrators, the socioeconomic statistics of who commits domestic violence...it's not a mystery. It's an entitled masculine ethic. The men who are controlling (and Mr. Bancroft has talked with many of them, he runs a rehabilitation center for abusers) KNOW what they are doing. We need all of our city's agencies to coordinate when a woman or her children raise red flags; we need protection orders to actually mean something; we need to take the burden off the abused spouse for proving every step here and protect her more; we need more domestic violence shelters where women live so that they aren't forced to quit their jobs and so that they can keep stability in their life. OR, put the perpetrator in jail so she can keep her job. We are doing an entirely inadequate job of helping women out. People are dying. Let's fix this.
79
Thank you for mentioning Lundy Bancroft's excellent book. EVERY woman should read it, in my opinion.
1
Sara from Chicago writes such a poignant letter. It seems that because men hold most positions of authority in the word they are inured to what women are subjected to. The sexism is so fundamental it's unquestioned. Obviously men do vastly more physical harm to others than women do. Why? How do we compensate for this built-in or acquired disfunction?
27
Homicidal domestic violence is not rooted in sexism. It's a predator-prey scenario.
Predators cannot be helped or fixed; they cannot be changed. It's only a matter of time before they snap again.
Predators cannot be helped or fixed; they cannot be changed. It's only a matter of time before they snap again.
11
This is junk science. There is no reputable peer-reviewed psychological study that confirms what you say. And find me a predator that kills itself after it gets its prey!
6
Men fight with fists. With other men or with women. It is exacerbated with women cause he will lose any verbal battle. The inability to fight verbally and the emasculation it causes leads to violence.
1
This is going to sound horrible. When I find someone is being abused by their partner/spouse, I advise them to get a restraining order. However, I also advise them to get a gun - legally - and to be prepared to use it. Often, getting a restraining order or attempting to leave, causes the violence to escalate.
31
I worked the Domestic Violence/Anti-Harassment Protection Order window at my county clerk's office in the 80s and 90s. It was quite the experience to say the least.
And what you said. re the violence escalating after the victim took out a restraining order (or attempted to leave) is what usually happens.
Often the victim would return in a couple of days to release the order .. yeah, right .. the defendant promised to change.
Getting a protection order takes quite a bit of time. There are forms to fill out, an immediate court hearing follows, then back to the clerk's office to have copies made .. and finally the victim has to take the paperwork to someone (or the police) to have the alleged defendant served. Then another hearing follows in 2 weeks time (where the defendant is required to show up .. a lot of them don't).
What keeps the victim safe during this time? Often they have to hide-out somewhere else. The children (if there are any) have to be taken out of school, moved to another school, etc. and all of the other problems that go with a sudden move to another area.
If the victim has a job, then she is often hounded by the defendant there. Many lose their jobs over this.
It is a big undertaking to get away from some of these defendants. Some victims give up. Some are killed. But many of them make it .. and are able to go on to live a more normal life.
And what you said. re the violence escalating after the victim took out a restraining order (or attempted to leave) is what usually happens.
Often the victim would return in a couple of days to release the order .. yeah, right .. the defendant promised to change.
Getting a protection order takes quite a bit of time. There are forms to fill out, an immediate court hearing follows, then back to the clerk's office to have copies made .. and finally the victim has to take the paperwork to someone (or the police) to have the alleged defendant served. Then another hearing follows in 2 weeks time (where the defendant is required to show up .. a lot of them don't).
What keeps the victim safe during this time? Often they have to hide-out somewhere else. The children (if there are any) have to be taken out of school, moved to another school, etc. and all of the other problems that go with a sudden move to another area.
If the victim has a job, then she is often hounded by the defendant there. Many lose their jobs over this.
It is a big undertaking to get away from some of these defendants. Some victims give up. Some are killed. But many of them make it .. and are able to go on to live a more normal life.
30
the gun would've been tucked away where she kept it while she was murdered. quit pretending that a gun is the answer when the answer is to get out of an abusive relationship asap.
29
what is also FRUSTRATING is that if a man violates a restraining order very often the cops will do nothing. they tell the victim it's a civil matter and she has to go back to court. restraining orders are useless if the police won't act on them.
30
Our 22-year-old daughter was shot and killed by her ex-boyfriend in 2006, shortly after she broke up with him; with the next bullet he killed himself. My wife now sits as the "victim representative" on our city's Community Coordinated Response Team on Domestic Violence. Our police department is working to implement a "lethality assessment protocol" similar to one used by several other police departments in our region (and in the State of Maryland and other locales). Police who are called to a domestic dispute ask the victim a quick series of questions that can indicate if the victim's life is in danger. If the assessment indicates a high level of danger, the officer can take steps to advance an emergency protective order and/or connect the victim with a local domestic violence counselor. Does the NYPD have such a process?--it sounds like they do not. Every situation is different, and some murderers cannot be stopped, but in some situations this process could make a real positive difference. Moreover, in training the police to conduct the assessment they are helped to understand the dynamics of domestic violence and to listen carefully to the victims.
102
Horrible. So sorry for your loss. Grateful for your acts of service that will benefit others.
53
Yes. And as you know, the police would have to care, first, and fewer of them would have to be domestic abusers themselves. The problem is right there in the roots.
5
Not Mark....
I researched domestic violence issues in Kansas, Southern California and Northern California twenty years ago. What is shocking is that every successive poor, poorly educated and patriarchal ethnic group that replaces an old one, also poor, poorly educated and patriarchal, in many neighborhoodstates across America face the same issues when it comes to lack of adequate education about DV, and sensitive, adequate and effective outreach. With all the research and knowledge out there the practice remains poor in the US because of poor coordination, poor collaboration across institutions and not enough people in the local communities with the right training to make home visits and be good care managers for potential victims or survivors. There is also no continuum of comprehensive care. Too many people with too many needs without a more sophisticated sense of self governance, and community investment that goes beyond pursuit of individual wealth also overwhelms the system. It is like young people who constantly interrupt what I write with their petty third rate words or comments instead of going out there and doing something other to survive or attack me.
From someone else: Many men of patriarchy in ME, SA, USA and South & Latin America have to overcome their own arrogance and stupidity. Maybe Clinton or Trump is what they need. Like meets like. Ha, ha, ha...That might also bring down DV.
I researched domestic violence issues in Kansas, Southern California and Northern California twenty years ago. What is shocking is that every successive poor, poorly educated and patriarchal ethnic group that replaces an old one, also poor, poorly educated and patriarchal, in many neighborhoodstates across America face the same issues when it comes to lack of adequate education about DV, and sensitive, adequate and effective outreach. With all the research and knowledge out there the practice remains poor in the US because of poor coordination, poor collaboration across institutions and not enough people in the local communities with the right training to make home visits and be good care managers for potential victims or survivors. There is also no continuum of comprehensive care. Too many people with too many needs without a more sophisticated sense of self governance, and community investment that goes beyond pursuit of individual wealth also overwhelms the system. It is like young people who constantly interrupt what I write with their petty third rate words or comments instead of going out there and doing something other to survive or attack me.
From someone else: Many men of patriarchy in ME, SA, USA and South & Latin America have to overcome their own arrogance and stupidity. Maybe Clinton or Trump is what they need. Like meets like. Ha, ha, ha...That might also bring down DV.
4
Ms. Clinton has been an advocate for women and children her entire career.
42
You think? If Mrs. Clinton has been so actve on women's issues how come she looked the other way regarding her husband's philandering? In fact, if anything Hillary thinks like a MAN.
6
Oh please, let's not bring the election into this serious and tragic subject, one that is much too complex for any of our current crop of politicians to possibly deal with.
3
This horrible tragedy has few silver linings but I'm striving to grasp at some. Ms. Saavedra's pain, at least, is over, and the monster won't hurt anyone anymore. The children may, hopefully, be cared for by non-abusive people and grow up better off than if Uribe had lived. It will take a long time for them to recover from this, but where there's life, there's hope.
Also while it's terrible that society still doesn't do enough to help people in these circumstances, public opinion about domestic violence is improving. Several decades ago, it was seen as a husband's prerogative to do this sort of awful thing to his family; family issues were private and nobody's business. In many other countries, that's still true, so America is way out ahead of the curve on this.
All we can do is work for and hope for the situation to improve, as it has been. Hopefully this tragedy, and the ones to come, will warn people that when their significant other starts to hit them, their life will be in peril if they don't reach out for help. And if people are contacted about someone in these circumstances, hopefully they'll realize they have to help stop the abuse.
Also while it's terrible that society still doesn't do enough to help people in these circumstances, public opinion about domestic violence is improving. Several decades ago, it was seen as a husband's prerogative to do this sort of awful thing to his family; family issues were private and nobody's business. In many other countries, that's still true, so America is way out ahead of the curve on this.
All we can do is work for and hope for the situation to improve, as it has been. Hopefully this tragedy, and the ones to come, will warn people that when their significant other starts to hit them, their life will be in peril if they don't reach out for help. And if people are contacted about someone in these circumstances, hopefully they'll realize they have to help stop the abuse.
4
Contrary to popular opinion, domestic violence definitely occurs in high SES marriages as well, it's just often more hidden. Saying that it occurs primarily in lower SES marriages perpetuates a myth and does a disservice to all of us who have experienced DV. See the book Not to People Like Us by Susan Weitzman.
34
This is very true. I (educated female) was in an abusive relationship. When I got out, I decided to try group counseling for victims. Surprisingly, such groups were not readily found all over the city in which I lived, so I had to make a bit of a trip out to where the sessions were held. It would therefore stand to reason that other women like me would also need to travel to this other area, to participate.
I attended a few of the sessions but finally had to leave because I simply could not relate to the other women there. All the women were very uneducated and were incapable of communicating in an intelligent or well-spoken manner. I found myself frustrated at the lack of real dialogue or attempts for insight into how we found ourselves in abusive relationships in the first place (i.e., I knew from the get-go that something wasn't right about this guy, yet I continued to date him until such time as I got 'sucked-in'. Why didn't I leave at the first signs??) All conversation at the sessions were things like 'yeah, so he just gets outta prison and I be like 'when you gon give me some money?'
My point is, I was stymied as to where were all the other women more like me? Why was I the only educated woman in the entire bunch? And then I realized that it must be that certain people feel more 'shame' for being in an abusive relationship...who would 'expect' to see a well-travelled, educated person at group therapy for.... abusive relationships?
I attended a few of the sessions but finally had to leave because I simply could not relate to the other women there. All the women were very uneducated and were incapable of communicating in an intelligent or well-spoken manner. I found myself frustrated at the lack of real dialogue or attempts for insight into how we found ourselves in abusive relationships in the first place (i.e., I knew from the get-go that something wasn't right about this guy, yet I continued to date him until such time as I got 'sucked-in'. Why didn't I leave at the first signs??) All conversation at the sessions were things like 'yeah, so he just gets outta prison and I be like 'when you gon give me some money?'
My point is, I was stymied as to where were all the other women more like me? Why was I the only educated woman in the entire bunch? And then I realized that it must be that certain people feel more 'shame' for being in an abusive relationship...who would 'expect' to see a well-travelled, educated person at group therapy for.... abusive relationships?
Protection orders are only as good as the response to breaches. They are also only as good as the parties involved choose to obey the conditions. The solution domestic violence will be as multifactorial as the problem. For the sake of the children impacted by domestic violence, we need to put resources and commitment to solutions.
6
I want to step right now on the whole idea that family annihilators wouldn't be the monsters they are if men could still get jobs. These men beat, rape, and torture their wives - and usually their kids - for decades. They turn to murder only when their wives try to leave.
So in the good old days of the well-paid factory job for every HS dropout, these same guys still beat, raped, and tortured their families. The only difference was that women couldn't even dream of leaving, because they couldn't get a bank account without a husband's permission, because they couldn't get a job without it either, because the police sent them home and told them to be a better wife, because the priest asked what they did to cause it, because shelters didn't exist, because the neighbors shut the blinds and turned their backs...
Abusers and family annihilators are not men who can't get jobs.They exist in good times and in bad. We are fortunately better now at fighting back and protecting their victims, but we still have a long way to go. A jobs program for wife-beating animals is not one of the steps on that road.
So in the good old days of the well-paid factory job for every HS dropout, these same guys still beat, raped, and tortured their families. The only difference was that women couldn't even dream of leaving, because they couldn't get a bank account without a husband's permission, because they couldn't get a job without it either, because the police sent them home and told them to be a better wife, because the priest asked what they did to cause it, because shelters didn't exist, because the neighbors shut the blinds and turned their backs...
Abusers and family annihilators are not men who can't get jobs.They exist in good times and in bad. We are fortunately better now at fighting back and protecting their victims, but we still have a long way to go. A jobs program for wife-beating animals is not one of the steps on that road.
94
At least in the bad old days, people called this for what it is: men beating their wives.
Nowadays it's abstractions, euphemisms, passive voice, Orwellian doublespeak: "abusive relationship," "domestic violence situation," "controlling spouse," "battered woman" (NEVER "battering man"), "the violence" (per the subtitle of this story), and so on. Anything to avoid suggesting who is actually at fault.
Nowadays it's abstractions, euphemisms, passive voice, Orwellian doublespeak: "abusive relationship," "domestic violence situation," "controlling spouse," "battered woman" (NEVER "battering man"), "the violence" (per the subtitle of this story), and so on. Anything to avoid suggesting who is actually at fault.
8
Thank you for saying this. I'm deeply disappointed by the false myths in this article. I expect more from the NY Times.
I grew up in a lower middle class family as a victim of domestic violence. My father always had a stable job. The problem was not my father's employment: it was a legacy: he grew up in an abusive family and passed it on to us. My mother-- and us kids-- had no financial freedom and could not escape.
I grew up in a lower middle class family as a victim of domestic violence. My father always had a stable job. The problem was not my father's employment: it was a legacy: he grew up in an abusive family and passed it on to us. My mother-- and us kids-- had no financial freedom and could not escape.
10
There needs to be far more stories concerning domestic violence perpetrated by women against men since at least 50% of these crimes occur as such! The way that the media almost exclusively covers stories featuring the male as the aggressor gives the public an extremely inaccurate picture.
2
Dear Gjdagis,
Sorry, what's your source for 50% of domestic violence being committed by women? Just doesn't line up with common sense.
Sorry, what's your source for 50% of domestic violence being committed by women? Just doesn't line up with common sense.
32
It's not the public with the inaccurate picture.
20
I was wondering when I started reading the comments when I would find one like yours, it didn't take long. Written by a male and lamenting that "women commit at least 50% of these crimes" - an outright lie. Every time there's an article about women being abused in ANY way, there's always some men's rights group member that spouts off some inane propaganda about how rough men have it - what with all the beatings, rapes and murders that men endure from the hands of women. Right. Men overwhelmingly commit domestic violence that ends in the murder of a woman. That's a fact, deal with it.
64
While there are many deplorable aspects to this, what frustrates me most are burdens placed on victims to secure protective orders and broad failure to make use of technological advances.
Nadia Saavedra should have been provided with every state resource to obtain her protective order, not left to negotiate an administrative apparatus that was byzantine to her and in any case made more daunting by her condition. People who have been traumatized need assistance, not given service of process do-it-yourself kits.
Once a protective order is served, the surfeit of cell phones with GPS trackers today means no potential abuser should be able even to approach a victim without the victim and authorities knowing it. Technical issues and dealing with those intent on violence can be addressed in many ways, backed by summary jailing; e.g., in the event of tampering or other failure to abide by rules like regular check-ins and location verifications. Abuser compliance with their own counseling requirements can also be tracked this way.
Treating mental illness and addressing domestic violence are long-term undertakings. While this is happening, there is no reason even one more victim should die at the hands of an abuser—we're not talking about tracking Osama Bin Laden in Tora Bora, we're talking about tracking a guy in New York (or some other American city) where he's given a GPS-enabled phone and told the second he fails to abide by the rules, he goes directly to jail.
@ricfouad
Nadia Saavedra should have been provided with every state resource to obtain her protective order, not left to negotiate an administrative apparatus that was byzantine to her and in any case made more daunting by her condition. People who have been traumatized need assistance, not given service of process do-it-yourself kits.
Once a protective order is served, the surfeit of cell phones with GPS trackers today means no potential abuser should be able even to approach a victim without the victim and authorities knowing it. Technical issues and dealing with those intent on violence can be addressed in many ways, backed by summary jailing; e.g., in the event of tampering or other failure to abide by rules like regular check-ins and location verifications. Abuser compliance with their own counseling requirements can also be tracked this way.
Treating mental illness and addressing domestic violence are long-term undertakings. While this is happening, there is no reason even one more victim should die at the hands of an abuser—we're not talking about tracking Osama Bin Laden in Tora Bora, we're talking about tracking a guy in New York (or some other American city) where he's given a GPS-enabled phone and told the second he fails to abide by the rules, he goes directly to jail.
@ricfouad
58
Dear Ric Fouad,
I like the idea, but a phone wouldn't work, the guy could always leave it at home or take the battery out. A tracking ankle bracelet would be the way to go.
I like the idea, but a phone wouldn't work, the guy could always leave it at home or take the battery out. A tracking ankle bracelet would be the way to go.
19
" A tracking ankle bracelet would be the way to go."
Here in Charlotte we put tracking bracelets on prisoners arrested for violent crimes as part of bail. They cut them off. The only way we seem to catch them is while they're committing another crime. One of these men was actually released with another ankle bracelet.
The ones who commit crimes wearing them are the best. The bracelets place them at the scene of the crime.
The ankle bracelets aren't always the solution.
Here in Charlotte we put tracking bracelets on prisoners arrested for violent crimes as part of bail. They cut them off. The only way we seem to catch them is while they're committing another crime. One of these men was actually released with another ankle bracelet.
The ones who commit crimes wearing them are the best. The bracelets place them at the scene of the crime.
The ankle bracelets aren't always the solution.
1
Many comments asking about the neighbors – they heard fights and did nothing. Question: does the “system” guarantee anonymity? If not, I would be very scared turning in a neighbor if there was a chance he would come after ME.
Better to catch the wife when he’s not home, and try to get her and the kids to a shelter.
Better to catch the wife when he’s not home, and try to get her and the kids to a shelter.
6
I dunno, my visceral reaction would be that it'd be best to catch him when he's alone, and blind him so that he'd no longer be a threat.
6
i you make a 911 call you dont have to leave your info, th police still have top respond
but they will know your phone number nc they have ani
but they will know your phone number nc they have ani
1
A few weeks ago, I heard a domestic disturbance from across the street. Years ago, I would have thought nothing of calling the police, and did many times when those fights turned violent. But that was before everybody had a gun, and there are just too many crazy people out there who would think nothing of shooting up the neighborhood just to get that one person who had called the cops on him. So this time, I didn't call. I didn't want to get myself or my daughter killed by some gun-toting looney-tune. Fortunately, it worked out okay; the lady who being being beaten up escaped to her car and drove away. Hopefully, it won't happen again. But what a sad, sad world we live in when even people who want to help can't for fear of being shot.
10
Why not use an ankle bracelet approach to those who have an order of protection or restraining order against them? If they approach the limits, then an alarm goes off and they are arrested and taken into custody for a time period, evaluated for the potential for immediate harm and released after a few days of evaluation. Second time, you are out. That might not even be enough. I think we are not prepared for the damage these abusers do to the children as well, often killing them, too.
30
I AGREE!!!! Why oh why is this not law yet!! I've heard men argue that this would be unlawful to the men who are being falsely accused of something by a bitter scorned ex or whatever, but in my opinion, if that's the case then the man being falsely accused should be more than willing to wear one to prove he's not intent on harassing or hurting the female. And if he's not doing what she's saying then he should have no reason to object right? Although I met a girl once with an ankle bracelet and its big and had to be plugged into the wall while she wore it to be charged so yea i guess that would be really inconvenient, but when it comes to someone's life, it would be worth it. Maybe there'd be guidelines? Like those who are proven to be violent or have a record of violent behavior. With cameras everywhere these days and recorders, women should easily be able to document these things. And for anyone out there that may think my comment is sexist, it goes both ways. I suppose I should have generalized instead of being specific with my ramblings.
[[skiddoo Walnut Creek, CA
Why not use an ankle bracelet approach to those who have an order of protection or restraining order against them? If they approach the limits, then an alarm goes off and they are arrested and taken into custody for a time period, evaluated for the potential for immediate harm and released after a few days of evaluation.]]
That's not how ankle bracelets work. You can set up a base station in a house and when the bracelet goes out of range an alarm is triggered. You can't set up a bubble around an address so that an alarm is triggered when the offender gets too close. It's not pinpoint GPS technology.
And anyway even if that were possible, these monsters would just stalk the women at work, at the children's schools, etc. etc.
Why not use an ankle bracelet approach to those who have an order of protection or restraining order against them? If they approach the limits, then an alarm goes off and they are arrested and taken into custody for a time period, evaluated for the potential for immediate harm and released after a few days of evaluation.]]
That's not how ankle bracelets work. You can set up a base station in a house and when the bracelet goes out of range an alarm is triggered. You can't set up a bubble around an address so that an alarm is triggered when the offender gets too close. It's not pinpoint GPS technology.
And anyway even if that were possible, these monsters would just stalk the women at work, at the children's schools, etc. etc.
Heartbreaking. These poor children watching their father murder their mother and then kill himself means four lives were taken that day. Why is the world still so against defending and helping women in these situations? Why are abusive and narcissistic men give such power in our culture by police, men and women? When does society stand up and change the way women are protected, respected and believed? Why aren't women's lives considered of equal value to men?
178
Dear Sara,
I agree with you, but I think the civilized world is slowly coming around to the need to help women being abused by their horrible husbands before they get murdered. I think part of the problem though, which will also need a lot of work, is that the women in these situations, as here, do not reach out often.
I think we ought to start up a campaign, like the anti-smoking one and others, to teach young girls that the first time their boyfriend or spouse strikes them, they should leave him, and let friends, family, and the authorities help them do so. I know if my sister or niece ever told me they were getting abused, I'd make sure the abuser lost the ability to ever harm them again.
I agree with you, but I think the civilized world is slowly coming around to the need to help women being abused by their horrible husbands before they get murdered. I think part of the problem though, which will also need a lot of work, is that the women in these situations, as here, do not reach out often.
I think we ought to start up a campaign, like the anti-smoking one and others, to teach young girls that the first time their boyfriend or spouse strikes them, they should leave him, and let friends, family, and the authorities help them do so. I know if my sister or niece ever told me they were getting abused, I'd make sure the abuser lost the ability to ever harm them again.
7
I am going to say something unpopular here, but responsibility needs to be taken. These abusive men are raised usually by women, no? Arguably, many of these abusive men grew up either without father or with abusive fathers, so they never had a good father figure. But women need to stop treating their boys as better than their daughters, they need to teach them how to behave properly, they should not get away with all kinds of behaviour because they are boys etc. This is not easy to say because many cultures still believe having boys is better than girls and both boys and girls are raised accordingly. But we women have something to say about that...we don't have to give in for the sake of having a man in the house, or for fear of being viewed as less because not married etc. I will totally understand if many readers slam me for these comments but I do believe BOTH parents are responsible for how the son turns out.
7
Amen.
1
I suspect his stay in the psychiatric hospital was "short" because they realized he wasn't mentally ill, just a domestic violence perpetrator trying to garner sympathy by making himself appear to be a victim of something too. They do that all the time. I had a friend whose husband walked around talking about suicide after he beat her and she lost an eye. He didn't mean it. He just wanted his share of the sympathy that was going to her.
28
Patricia, Uribe did in fact commit suicide. Several other people were quoted as saying his behavior was odd and troubling. Is it so hard to believe he really was mentally ill?
1
Maybe he was and maybe he wasn't; however, to assume he was just because he committed suicide is assuming everyone thinks like you do.
People who commit suicide after murder do it so they can do what they want to other people without having to suffer any consequences. It's about power and control in addition to thumbing their noses at law enforcement.
People who commit suicide after murder do it so they can do what they want to other people without having to suffer any consequences. It's about power and control in addition to thumbing their noses at law enforcement.
4
Laura, where do we draw the line?
Pretty soon we'll be saying that everyone who is rude or unkind must be mentally ill and not responsible for their behavior.
Uribe wasn't a hallucinating schizophrenic.
He was clearly mean, abusive and homicidal, probably because he was a born predator beyond any help. But that doesn't mean he was mentally ill.
Pretty soon we'll be saying that everyone who is rude or unkind must be mentally ill and not responsible for their behavior.
Uribe wasn't a hallucinating schizophrenic.
He was clearly mean, abusive and homicidal, probably because he was a born predator beyond any help. But that doesn't mean he was mentally ill.
3
I wonder how much alcohol and the abuse of drugs/alcohol play into this tragedy as well as others like it. The article mentions that Mr. Uribe posted giant photos of beer on his facebook page, for example. While beer & wine commercials glamorize and celebrate alcohol, movies and tv series often portray drinking and getting drunk with light, airy, festive touches. Drinking blurrs judgment, clouds reasoning and loosen the part of the brain that is associated with conscience and reason. One more point: This is not just a problem among immigrants or inner cities. I grew up in an affluent suburb where fathers routinely got drunk and had explosive rages behind closed doors. The added issue of fearing ICE and/or deportation if contacting the police - makes the crime so much tougher for immigrants in the inner cities. But white, rich kids suffer too. Same crime, different hood. @johannaclear
21
"The added issue of fearing ICE and/or deportation if contacting the police - makes the crime so much tougher for immigrants in the inner cities. But white, rich kids suffer too. Same crime, different hood. @johannaclear"
It's good you put in the standard progressive qualifier.
Having said that would you agree just like those white perps, Alejandro Uribe was a piece of dirt?
It's good you put in the standard progressive qualifier.
Having said that would you agree just like those white perps, Alejandro Uribe was a piece of dirt?
1
Actually no, I would not. My point was drinking and drugging are often the triggers for extreme behavior and that media often glosses over that aspect of the crime. The bigger issue is also how men - overall - go to such extremes to show ownership of the woman they deem their own. The social and cultural license for men to behave this way is the dirt.
5
@J. "My point was drinking and drugging are often the triggers for extreme behavior and that media often glosses over that aspect of the crime. The bigger issue is also how men - overall .."
Overall? Not all men behave that way. How's that expression go? Oh yeah, check your prejudice.
Overall? Not all men behave that way. How's that expression go? Oh yeah, check your prejudice.
1
Why did the police not ask Ms. Saavedra if she thought her husband would hurt her or if she's ever been abused before by him? If this article is about a known pattern, then how could this man have been allowed to go free after his hospitalization, and with no recommendation to stay away from Ms. Saavedra? What more could Lincoln hospital have done to help this obviously sick man?
18
Maybe if our society did more to rehabilitate men who abuse rather than simply criminalizing them and their behavior and providing incomplete victim services, we could have avoided this entire situation. Offering services to the victim but not trying to fix the aggressor is like keeping the heat on 24/7 during winter in a house that simply needs better insulation. As soon as you turn off the heat (i.e. victim services), the cold just creeps back in (the aggressor continues his violent behavior with no repercussions).
35
Dear Sean Garner,
Any notions on how they could be rehabilitated? These vermin generally believe there's nothing wrong with their actions, and therapy is impossible when the patient resists it. I doubt they can be fixed with our current therapeutic abilities, easier to just lock them up until they're too old to be dangerous.
Any notions on how they could be rehabilitated? These vermin generally believe there's nothing wrong with their actions, and therapy is impossible when the patient resists it. I doubt they can be fixed with our current therapeutic abilities, easier to just lock them up until they're too old to be dangerous.
8
I don't understand your comment. Men who "abuse" other men are sent to jail - be it for rehabilitation or retribution. If a man beats up another man, he usually goes to jail. Why should that be any different for a man who beats up a woman - even if she is his wife or girlfriend?
13
"He wrote that he was upset by Ms. Saavedra’s new relationship and that he did not want to share her in life or in death; he would take her with him to heaven."
Sean, how do you fix this? How do you make a man understand that he is not entitled to a woman who doesn't want him, and he must let go and walk away?
Sean, how do you fix this? How do you make a man understand that he is not entitled to a woman who doesn't want him, and he must let go and walk away?
14
What a tragedy. I've been reading these same basic stories for 50 plus years. There is no real solution it seems.
A small fraction of men are like this. They don't change. Restraining orders are largely meaningless. Hospitals can't keep people against there will except in very rare cases.
They have so many anger. control and mental issues that they amount to a lifetime reclamation project even if they put themselves in the hands of the world's best therapist.
The woman has to try to find help wherever it might be found (family, friends, social services, police, the courts), but it is so often never enough and as in this tragedy too little too late. We all wring our hands and lament that the system has to change but it generally never does, at least not in my many decades on the planet.
It seems demonstrably bad, violent people with a history of such behavior should be locked up. Try to give them therapy of course, but they need to be put away for the protection of the rest of us.
Give the women shelters, support and any other help possible. Sad all around, but what ultimately can you do. If the abusers - who are really criminals - don't want to change they won't. We have to remove them. May Ms. Saavedra rest in peace.
A small fraction of men are like this. They don't change. Restraining orders are largely meaningless. Hospitals can't keep people against there will except in very rare cases.
They have so many anger. control and mental issues that they amount to a lifetime reclamation project even if they put themselves in the hands of the world's best therapist.
The woman has to try to find help wherever it might be found (family, friends, social services, police, the courts), but it is so often never enough and as in this tragedy too little too late. We all wring our hands and lament that the system has to change but it generally never does, at least not in my many decades on the planet.
It seems demonstrably bad, violent people with a history of such behavior should be locked up. Try to give them therapy of course, but they need to be put away for the protection of the rest of us.
Give the women shelters, support and any other help possible. Sad all around, but what ultimately can you do. If the abusers - who are really criminals - don't want to change they won't. We have to remove them. May Ms. Saavedra rest in peace.
75
Intended or not, your comment implies sadness at the fact that "they" have to be "removed." I just don't understand the societal regret. Lock 'em up. Period.
5
I don't agree that it is a "small fraction" of men that are controlling or abusive to their wives or girlfriends. A lot of women spend inordinate amounts of time humoring or tippy-toeing around their mates .. to keep themselves from harm (or unhappy episodes).
12
Of course there's a real solution! It involves taking power away from men who figure these problems aren't important because they're largely women's problems. And the attitude is everywhere, even in places where men are celebrated for their social consciences. Look, for instance, at the reaction to HB2 in NC. It's great, but where are the same companies -- Apple, for instance -- when women are turned into incubators in Texas and Indiana? That, that's not an important problem; it's mostly about women, innit.
It means that if you're a woman you commit to being perennially loud and unpleasant about these things. It means that if you're a man you break ranks and open your mouth to other men. Which do you do, dre?
It means that if you're a woman you commit to being perennially loud and unpleasant about these things. It means that if you're a man you break ranks and open your mouth to other men. Which do you do, dre?
1
Those who purport to be clinging to a bad marriage for the benefit of the kids are offten badly mistaken or lying. Having grown up in a verbally abusive household, my first wish was that the fighting would stop. A kid likes to be able to invite his friends over to his house and get to know his family. It is a basic sign of normalcy. And in my family, while my father was obviously neurotic, my mother repeatedly engaged in the same behaviors, apparently thinking she was placating him despite the fact that, after playing his games 100 times, it was more than obvious to a child that she needed to stand up to his bullying hysteria. My father had a decent job and he would have paid his fair share. My mother had a history working at good jobs during the war and when we kids left the house, she found herself a decent job. Separately, both parents were good people. Together, they were poison. I believe they stayed together because they feared divorce and being out there alone. They certainly weren't doing the kids any favors by staying together. And after my father died, my mother lived a happy life with frequent visits from her loving kids.
20
Public awareness is growing against domestic violence, we can only hope that local Leadership in schools and churches can do more.
17
That Ms Saavedra filed for protective custody on Jan 29 (which was never served) and Sgt LoPuzza states that he wishes she told someone she felt she was in danger, because then "maybe we could have prevented it", just shows how ineffective the system is protecting partners in domestic violence situations. In these complex situations, where shame, feelings of inadequacy, fear for the welfare of their children or belief that they are deserving of the abuse, often keep women from more forcefully bringing attention to their situation, social services, hospitals and the police need to much more aggressively intervene to keep these needless events from unfolding. There were multiple missed opportunities in this sad story for effective action by the authorities.
12
You write about "the same swirl of jealousy, mental instability and silence that makes it difficult for investigators across the city to anticipate domestic violence."
Here's a thought. Let the women tell you that they are in danger; believe them; and do something real about it!
Here's a thought. Let the women tell you that they are in danger; believe them; and do something real about it!
32
No woman ever lies, distorts or exaggerates. No woman ever misapprehends the amount of danger in which she believes herself to be. Women's statements should simply be accepted, at face value, all the time because, well, they never lie, distort or exaggerate. Lather, rinse and repeat.
Here's another thought: let's not accept their statements at face value. Let's not eschew investigation and analysis. Let's reintroduce two old concepts--deliberation and due process--one developed by a bunch of dead white men (a/k/a The Patriarchy), but that has proven remarkably useful to women and minorities as well. I kinda doubt that they'd want to eliminate it. Doing so could produce some short term gain, but come back to really bite them in the rear.
Here's another thought: let's not accept their statements at face value. Let's not eschew investigation and analysis. Let's reintroduce two old concepts--deliberation and due process--one developed by a bunch of dead white men (a/k/a The Patriarchy), but that has proven remarkably useful to women and minorities as well. I kinda doubt that they'd want to eliminate it. Doing so could produce some short term gain, but come back to really bite them in the rear.
5
There are women that lie, but nowhere near the numbers that some men want everyone to believe. The whole "false accusation" thing that is going on now is a joke. If anything, society has protected controlling and violent men since the beginning of time and now that the tide is turning, some men don't like the idea of not being able to do what they want without penalty.
15
Well, in the 70s and 80s, women's groups stated flatly: "Women don't lie about rape!" So I guess Ms. Kay's opening line represents at least some progress, no matter how fitful, or how vehemently the issue is denied.
How she knows, however, that a problem is not nearly as bad as men (a rather large and variegated group to make sweeping generalizations about, no?) think it is, is conveniently unexplained. Let's just stick with notions of due process and deliberation, and the principle of not prejudging based on one side's account.
How she knows, however, that a problem is not nearly as bad as men (a rather large and variegated group to make sweeping generalizations about, no?) think it is, is conveniently unexplained. Let's just stick with notions of due process and deliberation, and the principle of not prejudging based on one side's account.
Perhaps when covering these kinds of murders, we should consider leaving the suicide part for a few paragraphs down instead of writing things like "he returned to kill her and then himself", which takes the focus off the life that really matters. After all, the Columbine killers ended up turning the guns on themselves, but we don't really think of their act as a "murder-suicide". It's only when the victims are considered the murderer's property that the killer's own life is placed on a par with that of the innocent lives he ended.
9
And yet ... Clarence Thomas is on the Supreme Court.
Catholic priests commit pedophilia and are treated as reconciled "sinners" and protected.
We must not be deprived of our high powered killing machines.
Wake up. We are part of one human family. United we rise; divided we fall.
Catholic priests commit pedophilia and are treated as reconciled "sinners" and protected.
We must not be deprived of our high powered killing machines.
Wake up. We are part of one human family. United we rise; divided we fall.
7
"We must not be deprived of our high powered killing machines."
Why not? Because Mr. Uribe used a knife and not an assault rifle?
Why not? Because Mr. Uribe used a knife and not an assault rifle?
3
"And yet ... Clarence Thomas is on the Supreme Court."
What? Who did Clarence Thomas stab to death?
What? Who did Clarence Thomas stab to death?
3
Clarence Thomas' presence on the Supreme Court apparently is of a piece with a stabbing murder. And the debasement of our politics is assigned to the right?
1
The NYT has done a disservice to victims everywhere: DV is not the domaine of the poor. It crosses all socio economic lines. Anyone can be a victim, and the same fears keep victims tied to their abusers no matter what their race, religion, or bank balance.
27
"The NYT has done a disservice to victims everywhere"
Really? What "disservice" to victims of what has the NYT done, SW?
Really? What "disservice" to victims of what has the NYT done, SW?
2
I agree with SW. The disservice is drawing a link between unemployment/poverty and domestic violence. There is no link.
3
I've seen several comments along these lines and feel it should be reiterated and clarified: the NYT did not identify this particular homicide, decide it fit their general image of domestic violence, and choose to focus exclusively on this.
Rather, the Times is doing detailed, in-depth reporting on all of the 2016 homicides in this specific precinct (which was among the top three in homicide rates last year).
They did not seek out this particular tragedy because it conformed to any editorial bias or perspective. They chose this specific precinct.
If this victim had been white and affluent and lived in the same precinct, she too would've been reported on at length. The Times chose the location and its boundaries...this horrific crime, sadly, fell within their purview.
Rather, the Times is doing detailed, in-depth reporting on all of the 2016 homicides in this specific precinct (which was among the top three in homicide rates last year).
They did not seek out this particular tragedy because it conformed to any editorial bias or perspective. They chose this specific precinct.
If this victim had been white and affluent and lived in the same precinct, she too would've been reported on at length. The Times chose the location and its boundaries...this horrific crime, sadly, fell within their purview.
We need to recognize the signs of mental illness early on through education. Every sign was there, yet no one seemed to pick up on it. Every comment by everyone who knew this man reveals there was something seriously wrong. Coercive control and paranoia are signs of mental imbalance and often far more serious illness. We also need to educate women to recognize these symptoms as signs of untreated mental illness. Doing so would save thousands of women's lives, and their husbands/boyfriends might receive the help they so desperately need. Police departments need to be trained to recognize this as well. As for the Lincoln Hospital staff, there is simply no excuse that this man was released in the state he was in.
61
Domestic violence is not caused by mental illness. Perps may suffer from depression or bipolar disorder, but there is no one mental illness that causes a man who believe he has the right to control and abuse a woman. That is a societal attitude that goes along with a patriarchal culture that accepts violence as a way to control women. You'd have to declare entire countries mentally ill if domestic violence was a mental illness.
39
And that is so rightt. Some cultures and religions that consider women as property of men ; that men by nature are superior to women or violence gainst women can be prevented only by women's modesty or veils are mentally sick or ill. Patriarchy is an mental illness that can also lead to organized violence against women and "other " men.
8
Patricia in Pasadena, I think it's safe to say that in the light of how the USA spends its tax dollars, how it collects its tax dollars from all and sum, how it inflicts its worldview on other societies, how it educates its children, how it treats workers who have children but get no paid family leave, how it allows its poor to live, how it allows its veterans to live and commit suicide, how it visits bankruptcy on people who get sick, how it provides health care to its people, how it withholds mental health care from its people, how it treats substance abuse as a criminal rather than medical problem, how it treats the impoverished elderly, how it saddles college students with debt, how it allows its so-called political leaders to escape accountability for their lies and venality, and how dysfunctionally it deals with a whole host of other issues, that it *is* a mentally ill society - the whole country suffers from a mental illness whose chief symptom is that women are undervalued especially in comparison to men.
Case closed.
Case closed.
1
This is about us, all of us, living under the influence of a patriarchy...a system that causes men to be addicted to the idea that they are entitled to dominance and control over women, and is why one in three women in this country are subject to violence from their husbands or boyfriends.
69
Studies have shown that the same percentage of straight relationships and same-sex relationships have domestic violence. That means that lesbians and gay men commit domestic violence against their partners just as often as men do against women.
8
A pointless response, rooted in simplistic feminism.
I suppose the most conservative white men--the avatars of the patriarchy--would be the most likely to abuse their women, no? Except that Ronald Reagan and George W. Bush were extremely kind and solicitous husbands. Even the terrible Richard Nixon never took a swing at Pat. And Mr. Uribe hardly possessed any great power, patriarchal or not, as an Hispanic male with almost zero earning capacity.
And when women abuse men physically--which happens far more frequently than anyone likes to admit--is this, too, the patriarchy at work?
I suppose the most conservative white men--the avatars of the patriarchy--would be the most likely to abuse their women, no? Except that Ronald Reagan and George W. Bush were extremely kind and solicitous husbands. Even the terrible Richard Nixon never took a swing at Pat. And Mr. Uribe hardly possessed any great power, patriarchal or not, as an Hispanic male with almost zero earning capacity.
And when women abuse men physically--which happens far more frequently than anyone likes to admit--is this, too, the patriarchy at work?
6
"I suppose the most conservative white men--the avatars of the patriarchy--would be the most likely to abuse their women, no?"
What is the basis of your supposition, Wine?
By the way, you've somehow missed a chance to accuse the Times of "playing the race card" by failing to point out that WASP's also abuse their partners.
What is the basis of your supposition, Wine?
By the way, you've somehow missed a chance to accuse the Times of "playing the race card" by failing to point out that WASP's also abuse their partners.
1
How about this: Men with a history of violence are locked up and given counseling, rather than our waiting until the woman is killed. It's not rocket science. If women were valued as first class citizens, this would be a given.
I worked in domestic abuse shelters in California and it was so obvious that the system, and the system's protection of the men rather than the women, were to blame. Why is it that the woman and her family have to go into hiding? Why not lock the man up? It's utter nonsense and betrays the old patriarchal idea that women sometimes get slapped around. No need to make a big deal of it.
I worked in domestic abuse shelters in California and it was so obvious that the system, and the system's protection of the men rather than the women, were to blame. Why is it that the woman and her family have to go into hiding? Why not lock the man up? It's utter nonsense and betrays the old patriarchal idea that women sometimes get slapped around. No need to make a big deal of it.
283
Indeed. San Francisco's sheriff, the guy responsible for arresting abusers, was charged with DV of his own wife but pleaded out to a lesser violation. DV is the scourge of America.
10
Why not just lock the man up? Because we have rule of law. Jurisprudence. Bill of Rights. Habeas corpus and all that. According to all those rules, you can only lock someone up for committing a specific crime for which you have evidence for conviction. You can't just lock someone up and force him to take counseling because he has a "history of violence" according to people around him. The victim of his latest violence has to give evidence against him. That's where it all begins to fall apart.
5
Yes that’s fine, but our prison systems aren’t exactly known for their rehabilitation efforts, are they?
4
I hesitate to tout my own profession, that of a master's level clinical social worker (MSW, licensure required) and I happen to have had (now retired) the licensed clinical social worker status which requires a lot of training. I also worked in a court clinic and in outpatient mental health settings. I don't give a whit about all of the above except for the fact that we are the best trained professionals for interviewing and assessing these families. This is what we DO. We complete 2 years of field work and 2 years of academic graduate work learning exactly how to interview people and families. We are good investigators. (Most DCF workers are not professional level social workers.) But of course there is not nearly enough funding to cover the payment of professionally trained social workers to do outreach in communities like this. Or for an MSW social worker to do highly skilled interviewing of people who have asked for a restraining order. The police do not have this level of training - they simply don't! Do not think that they can handle these kinds of delicate interviews - they can't!
17
Then SW's need to go on call with the cops because the system is broken. The second a TRO lapses or is not made permanent, largely due to the SW's all too brief interview of the perp, the victim has a target on her back. We also need more RO's for longer durations - maybe 5 years minimum to give the victim time to put a new life in place.
1
a paid professional recommending more work for his profession is not exactly an independent review.
and - mothers, teachers and nurses - typically don't get paid enough for saving people's lives - but there you are - the most valuable and important jobs in society tend to be the ones that get paid the least.
and - mothers, teachers and nurses - typically don't get paid enough for saving people's lives - but there you are - the most valuable and important jobs in society tend to be the ones that get paid the least.
3
Yeah Martha in nyc, we have over a trillion dollars for the F-35 jet fighter, but can't pay people like you to help us protect women and children who demonstrably need protection. Our priorities are as crazy as they are.
1
Too many commenters here continue the pattern of infantilizing women and suggesting or insisting that they have no free volition when making harmful choices.
In this particular story I am curious about everything the narrative leaves out. Why did Ms. Saavedra marry at 15? Was her family pleased or relieved that they were no longer responsible for supporting her? Did they see her move to the US as a step in assisting other family members to follow, and therefore her own personal wellbeing was less important to them than her added value as a US resident (legal or not--that is not told to us)?
Did Mr. Uribe hide his true character from everyone in his home village until he had gotten Ms. Saavedra firmly into his clutches, or was he already not a very good prospect for a husband, breadwinner and father?
Just as men must be held accountable when they act badly--and no one here excuses Mr. Uribe's behavior though he and Ms. Saavedra were products of the same culture--women, too, are accountable for their choices.
I'm sorry this woman died. I completely concur that the legal system in this country--as in many other countries--is deeply flawed in the sphere of family law and necessary protections for the vulnerable.
But it's a silly fantasy to imagine that any government anywhere can successfully protect 100% of its citizens or residents. Every person must also use common sense.
In this particular story I am curious about everything the narrative leaves out. Why did Ms. Saavedra marry at 15? Was her family pleased or relieved that they were no longer responsible for supporting her? Did they see her move to the US as a step in assisting other family members to follow, and therefore her own personal wellbeing was less important to them than her added value as a US resident (legal or not--that is not told to us)?
Did Mr. Uribe hide his true character from everyone in his home village until he had gotten Ms. Saavedra firmly into his clutches, or was he already not a very good prospect for a husband, breadwinner and father?
Just as men must be held accountable when they act badly--and no one here excuses Mr. Uribe's behavior though he and Ms. Saavedra were products of the same culture--women, too, are accountable for their choices.
I'm sorry this woman died. I completely concur that the legal system in this country--as in many other countries--is deeply flawed in the sphere of family law and necessary protections for the vulnerable.
But it's a silly fantasy to imagine that any government anywhere can successfully protect 100% of its citizens or residents. Every person must also use common sense.
11
It is unbelievable that you are blaming the woman in this story!
9
You make good points.
Here's a quote from an online article: "In fact, a 1969 study conducted by Dr. Phillip Resnick found that when mothers kill their kids, 68% are sent to mental hospitals and only 27% are sent to prison; when fathers kill their children, 72% go to prison and only 14% are hospitalized."
We all know about post-partum psychosis. But what about men who do things like killing their own children? IF some foundation were inclined to fund a study on hormonal imbalances and other disturbances in men who kill their kids, maybe, just maybe it could be shown that just like women, men can undergo horrible changes when they lose a job and have no way to do what society expects of them (support a family) and the simultaneously face other stressful circumstances, with perhaps a good deal of mental imbalance to begin with. Maybe someone could find and name the male equivalent of post-partum psychosis IF it were politically acceptable to look for exculpatory factors for men, like scientists who are committed to defending women have identified and publicized post-partum depression. Giving birth is not the only kind of experience that can trigger awful things in a person.
Here's a quote from an online article: "In fact, a 1969 study conducted by Dr. Phillip Resnick found that when mothers kill their kids, 68% are sent to mental hospitals and only 27% are sent to prison; when fathers kill their children, 72% go to prison and only 14% are hospitalized."
We all know about post-partum psychosis. But what about men who do things like killing their own children? IF some foundation were inclined to fund a study on hormonal imbalances and other disturbances in men who kill their kids, maybe, just maybe it could be shown that just like women, men can undergo horrible changes when they lose a job and have no way to do what society expects of them (support a family) and the simultaneously face other stressful circumstances, with perhaps a good deal of mental imbalance to begin with. Maybe someone could find and name the male equivalent of post-partum psychosis IF it were politically acceptable to look for exculpatory factors for men, like scientists who are committed to defending women have identified and publicized post-partum depression. Giving birth is not the only kind of experience that can trigger awful things in a person.
1
common sense is never common.
2
I'm surprised the article states only that she was 15 years old when she married. Does anyone expect a marriage to succeed in any strata of our society that starts with a 15 year old girl? When you add to that the drastic change in relocating to a new very different country with no education and no prospects of making a decent living. The mere fact that this marriage survived 17 years is in itself miraculous.
8
Not sure "miraculous" is the right word. I suspect with no options she stuck it out. At some point most people will have had enough however.
In the old days, most people were married at an age that is now considered very young. A lot of those people stayed happily married for their whole lives. I don't know if things are worse now, regarding familial relations, but I'd guess that they're not any better.
A familiar pattern indeed and another sad example of inadequate options for abused women and children. Neither the laws nor the mental health system provide the necessary safeguards. To put the responsibility to navigate the system on the victim is unrealistic and doesn't work. These are nightmarish situations and to predict the actions of an abuser is impossible.
There should be a great deal more education and information disseminated including in schools and work places. The help needs to be more aggressive in reaching out and finally there needs to be sufficient numbers of guarded shelters. A restraining order isn't going to stop this kind of aggressor. what is necessary is to remove the victim from her current location and allow her to live under protection for as long as necessary. There are no short cuts that will help these victims.
There should be a great deal more education and information disseminated including in schools and work places. The help needs to be more aggressive in reaching out and finally there needs to be sufficient numbers of guarded shelters. A restraining order isn't going to stop this kind of aggressor. what is necessary is to remove the victim from her current location and allow her to live under protection for as long as necessary. There are no short cuts that will help these victims.
9
What about the kids? It must have been traumatic to witness such a crime!
10
Yes, I can't believe this article did not address what would happen to the kids!
1
News Flash for Mr. Uribe: his poor wife may be on her way to Heaven, but he most certainly is not. So disgusted to read of yet another tragic loss of life to the demented DV mindset of "If I can't have her, no one else can." Men who think this way, please grow up.
16
Domestic and child abusers need to be put away for life, no three strikes, end of story.
14
Really, we are so blind to the "facts" about domestic violence. We have judges in this country who award custody of children to men who abuse, and murder, their wives. Are you kidding me? Neighbors should report when they see/hear problems and police should be "required" to arrest, and courts should "require" jail time. We can't rely on the woman to report or file charges. We have to take that responsibility out of her hands. Children should be removed and put with either relatives or into foster homes. Too many times these abusers end up murdering their partners, wives, and sometimes their children. When are we going to learn that these situations almost never end well!
67
Beggars credulity that the husband didn't have priors that would have allowed cops to arrest him before this tragedy.
Did he?
Did he?
5
All she needed was a small handgun, legally and with a short training course, like taking your driver's test at DMV. That's the protection women in so many other states have. NYC let her down, and 1000s of other defenseless victims previously. Even if she'd called 911 it would not have saved her. Stand your ground, women. I'd call the new empowered approach the Kitty Genovese Law.
6
The opposite is true. Statistics show clearly that you are more likely to be murdered by gunshots if you own a hand gun. It's also naive to assume that a gun would protect you in a domestic situation. Anybody with some experience in encountering violent agressors will confirm that.
12
Even if you think a gun would ensure her safety, there are a number of obstacles. Guns cost money. Ms. Saavedra most likely did not have the purchase price. Another problem, many parents don't like to have guns near children. Even if she did purchase a gun, it doesn't guarantee safety. It's merely a deterrent. Given the actions of Mr. Uribe and the fact that he stabbed and killed Ms. Saavedra in front of their children no less, it seems that a deterrent might not have worked here. So the children would be traumatized by seeing their mother attacked by their father AND seeing their mother shoot their father. Yes, at minimum they MIGHT end up with their mother alive. But at a tremendous cost and no guarantee.
It would be great if gun purchases came with an involuntary contribution to mental health, but pigs don't fly.
It would be great if gun purchases came with an involuntary contribution to mental health, but pigs don't fly.
5
I can't understand anyone with such disdain for guns and apparently the right of self-defense that s/he can't see that in this instance, in which a woman was attacked by her larger knife wielding husband, a gun could very well have saved her life.
With people like Mr. Uribe the only thing which is going to stop their aggression is superior force.
With people like Mr. Uribe the only thing which is going to stop their aggression is superior force.
3
It's admirable that the Times is highlighting yet another case of domestic violence. But frustratingly, the piece doesn't go deep enough. On the one hand, the writers contend that this couple"hid their discord." But in the very next paragraph they say A) a neighbor sometimes heard screaming coming from the couple's apt; B) other people said the husband was "physically abusive;" and C) the wife confided to friends at a local non-profit that her husband "beat and humiliated her." It is a fallacy--an easy and patently false explanation--that abuse is hidden. Many people see it! The problem is that belittlement of women, aggression toward women, violence against women is so much a part of the fabric of our society that people don't give it the weight it deserves. Mass shootings and terrorism occur much less frequently than domestic violence, but they get way more of the press and public's attention and sympathy. There is an implicit (and often not-so-implicit) criticism of any woman in this horrific situation who doesn't raise the red flag against her abuser. (It's not like the perpetrator of the violence is going to report it. So who else is being accused of "hiding the discord?") In my book, KooKooLand, I show the two terrible choices available to many women in these relationships--stay and suffer, leave and die. We need a third choice--leave and live. The only way that's going to happen is if we as a society admit that a woman's life is truly equal to a man's.
58
Yes, I also wondered if this article was lacking an editor.
1
This leaves me speechless.
2
Lesson from this story:
Stay away from someone who cut himself to make a point. Unfortunately Nadia didn't realize that in 17 years. With 17 warnings.
Stay away from someone who cut himself to make a point. Unfortunately Nadia didn't realize that in 17 years. With 17 warnings.
1
Your flippant comment and victim blaming: "Nadia didn't realize that in 17 years. With 17 warnings" is part of the problem. If you read the article it mentioned the cutting was a new activity after her abusive husband was asked to leave the home. You obviously have no clue about how a woman who is raising children and trying to keep a family together is often trapped in a situation that turns volatile without warning.
58
It is not the "situation" that turns volatile.
1
You have entirely missed the point. Women are most endangered when they try to extricate themselves, as this case exemplifies.
"And, like gang killings and attacks by mentally ill people, domestic murders occur overwhelmingly in poor neighborhoods..."
Whoa, do I have this right? Gang killings are equated with the acts of those suffering the psychosis of mental illness?
What just happened here?
Whoa, do I have this right? Gang killings are equated with the acts of those suffering the psychosis of mental illness?
What just happened here?
1
It doesn't equate the murders; it says that statistically, both occur more in overwhelmingly poor neighborhoods.
6
How much can society do if people refuse to act with basic common sense?
Ms. Saavedra seems to have had a wide circle of family and friends interested in her and her wellbeing.
Why did she marry, at 15, a 19-year-old unable to support her properly? Why did she have two children with a man who, from the earliest days of their life in NY, was not a good provider?
Yes--it*s very true that we have gaping chasms in our social services network.
By the time Ms. Saavedra finally took a step to protect herself, her husband had clearly been mentally unstable for a very long time. Why did she believe that by staying with a man who had no interest in their children and did not support his family, she was doing the right thing for her family?
I am sorry. Women are not helpless fools. We have an obligation to ourselves and our children to act when we or they are being mistreated.
Ms. Saavedra seems to have had a wide circle of family and friends interested in her and her wellbeing.
Why did she marry, at 15, a 19-year-old unable to support her properly? Why did she have two children with a man who, from the earliest days of their life in NY, was not a good provider?
Yes--it*s very true that we have gaping chasms in our social services network.
By the time Ms. Saavedra finally took a step to protect herself, her husband had clearly been mentally unstable for a very long time. Why did she believe that by staying with a man who had no interest in their children and did not support his family, she was doing the right thing for her family?
I am sorry. Women are not helpless fools. We have an obligation to ourselves and our children to act when we or they are being mistreated.
5
Pointless victim blaming. Thank you for this valuable contribution. Why don't you do some research on the difficulties inherent in extracting oneself from an abusive relationship, before you run your foolish and hateful mouth? You will learn that attitudes like yours are a part of the problem.
35
SCA, You make it sound so simple, but you are merely blaming the victim. Often victims have been victimized before, by rape for example, making them vulnerable. Many perpetrators of DV are narcissists or sociopaths and thus expert at manipulating the women they control. Finally, those closest to the couple often don't speak up about what they see.
10
I agree that mothers need to step up, regardless of how fragile they are, and protect their children from even seeing abuse. If they cannot do it for themselves, many could and would do it for their children if they heard the message often enough. I was one of those children.
On the other hand, we need to realize that society and all religions look down on people whose marriages "failed." That's got to change. And we've got to stop making women think that choosing single motherhood over domestic violence will doom their children to lives of crime/gangs/etc.
On the other hand, we need to realize that society and all religions look down on people whose marriages "failed." That's got to change. And we've got to stop making women think that choosing single motherhood over domestic violence will doom their children to lives of crime/gangs/etc.
4
Where are the children now?
3
Patterns emerge, indeed. Females marrying extremely young. Men who have low skill sets, and are therefore more prone to economic stress. Being pregnant and having children makes the woman and children much more vulnerable and increases economic stress.
Cultural differences where females are of less value, most of all, transcends economic and social strata. After all, domestic violence occurs among the wealthy also.
The most common thread, are males that believe in being entitled to control women as their birthright. Religious communities can be complicit in this attitude and are more likely to enable abuse, than enforce any standards against it.
With growing populations that include millions of immigrants, services and resources are stretched beyond effectiveness.
This isn't a new tragedy, but evidently there is little that can be or is done to change it towards the better.
Cultural differences where females are of less value, most of all, transcends economic and social strata. After all, domestic violence occurs among the wealthy also.
The most common thread, are males that believe in being entitled to control women as their birthright. Religious communities can be complicit in this attitude and are more likely to enable abuse, than enforce any standards against it.
With growing populations that include millions of immigrants, services and resources are stretched beyond effectiveness.
This isn't a new tragedy, but evidently there is little that can be or is done to change it towards the better.
7
When you leave an abusive relationship you can't move a few yards from the abuser. It seems very difficult to do but you have to leave and not tell anyone where you are going.Until you can really leave your spouse you cannot ask him to leave your home.You have to leave.
10
And how do you accomplish this miracle when you're an uneducated woman who works cleaning houses and who has two minor children to support?
"And, like gang killings and attacks by mentally ill people, domestic murders occur overwhelmingly in poor neighborhoods, " A multi-millionaire professor neighbor from upscale Leverett, MA then living in one of his homes in Sunderland MA had no problem in killing his wife and himself.
12
In 2013, a young woman, Jordan Graham, pushed the man she had recently married off a cliff, to his death. She lied about it to the police. Seems she had regrets about the marriage.
Claus von Bulow; Dr. Sam Sheppard; Dr. Carl Coppolino; Cullen Davis; Robert Durst; and the rabbi in Cherry Hill (NJ) who had his wife murdered, all show that wealth and murder go together like hand and glove.
11
These are anecdotes, not statistics. Statistically, domestic abuse resulting in homicide is very strongly positively correlated with low socioeconomic status. Of course, that does not mean that it never occurs at other strata.
Wishing that certain things were true does not make them true.
Wishing that certain things were true does not make them true.
[[The pattern of a deepening desperation — Mr. Uribe’s threats to kill himself, his paranoia about a boyfriend — were familiar milestones on the path to domestic homicide.]]
Anyone want to take a bet on whether or not the husband had girlfriends outside his marriage?
Anyone want to take a bet on whether or not the husband had girlfriends outside his marriage?
14
Yes, the eternal double standard.
2
With the death of Kitty Genovese's murderer in the news recently, it bears asking: where were her neighbors when they "heard screams coming from her apartment before"? Where was her extended family, who must have known that physical abuse was going on prior to Ms Saavedra's death? Why didn't young Uri go to other family members and ask for help for his mother before her death? Why didn't NYC social services know that a member of the household, who had a record of domestic violence, was committed to a psychiatric facility and released? Why does it take a death like this to realize that the Ms Saavedra's loved ones and the medical, legal, and social support systems of NYC completely failed this poor woman?
8
This will stop when women stop defining themselves by other people - boyfriends, husbands, children. Teach little girls to follow a calling - whatever it may be: chef, clergy, child-care worker, astronaut, physician, engineer, musician, business owner, writer, teacher, visual artist. Girls who develop a strong sense of self have no need to partner with a sociopath, narcissist, or mentally ill man. The types of women who take on these men often feel empty inside. They were taught at home that 'family' is everything, and creating one is what you do - even at a cost to your physical and mental health, and the safety of your future children.
Mentally healthy and happy men don't partner with desperate women; they like the balanced ones, who can both give and receive.
The men who commit domestic violence need psychiatric help - they don't need girlfriends. They need support groups, and they need other men in their lives to care about them.
Women: please boycott controlling, angry, mentally ill men. Stop trying to rescue them. Rescue yourself. If you approach 40, and have not yet had a child, there are other ways to parent: adoption, foster parenting. If you get yourself together first, you can change the world. Let the abusers either get help on their own, or let them die out and flame out without taking you and your children with them.
Mentally healthy and happy men don't partner with desperate women; they like the balanced ones, who can both give and receive.
The men who commit domestic violence need psychiatric help - they don't need girlfriends. They need support groups, and they need other men in their lives to care about them.
Women: please boycott controlling, angry, mentally ill men. Stop trying to rescue them. Rescue yourself. If you approach 40, and have not yet had a child, there are other ways to parent: adoption, foster parenting. If you get yourself together first, you can change the world. Let the abusers either get help on their own, or let them die out and flame out without taking you and your children with them.
41
Thank you for this. I was very fortunate to have an early feminist Dad. His advise was simply to create my own life and if someone came along that fit in great! No pressure to find a husband and have children.
As a result I forged my own path, bought a house on my own when banks weren't inclined to give a mortgage to a single, self employed woman, and created that life for myself.
And then? A wonderful man (a lot like my Dad) wandered into my life and fit perfectly.
Married for the first time at 42 years of age, no kids, a couple of awesome dogs and my Dad was the smartest man in the world.
As a result I forged my own path, bought a house on my own when banks weren't inclined to give a mortgage to a single, self employed woman, and created that life for myself.
And then? A wonderful man (a lot like my Dad) wandered into my life and fit perfectly.
Married for the first time at 42 years of age, no kids, a couple of awesome dogs and my Dad was the smartest man in the world.
6
It is inconceivable to me that our family structure isolates the victims of abuse and that we have found no community response to this, but instead continue to reify the structure that permits the abuse. I suggest a pact. If I am experiencing violence in my home I want you to come be with me in my home. If you are experiencing violence in your home, I will come to be with you in your home. That would be all, simply the peaceful occupation of a home, the piercing of the veil of privacy, the isolation that permits this to occur.
This could be part of the behavior of every homeowners association, every coop or condo, any building or neighborhood. A beeper system, perhaps. And the police would be made aware of pact activity and would come and be outside the home, in case of violence. But the work would be done silently, nonviolently, by the presence of other witnesses inside the home.
The point would be to send the assailant out of the home, to communities and counseling that would replace the battered women's shelters.
What are we saying about how we value women and children as against the sanctity of the home, that we permit this to happen?
This could be part of the behavior of every homeowners association, every coop or condo, any building or neighborhood. A beeper system, perhaps. And the police would be made aware of pact activity and would come and be outside the home, in case of violence. But the work would be done silently, nonviolently, by the presence of other witnesses inside the home.
The point would be to send the assailant out of the home, to communities and counseling that would replace the battered women's shelters.
What are we saying about how we value women and children as against the sanctity of the home, that we permit this to happen?
10
"...reflecting the difficulty in decoding risk factors."
DE-CODING? The man was unstable. Everyone who had any interaction with him knew that -- and they couldn't keep him longer than 48 hours for a full workup and true diagnosis?
No wonder we're in the shape we're in. Shame on the staff at Lincoln Medical and on our red-tape driven society.
DE-CODING? The man was unstable. Everyone who had any interaction with him knew that -- and they couldn't keep him longer than 48 hours for a full workup and true diagnosis?
No wonder we're in the shape we're in. Shame on the staff at Lincoln Medical and on our red-tape driven society.
45
ACLU doesn't like locking up people against their will. After all, who's to say who's insane?
1
Yeah. If they just ask the guy, "Are you considering hurting yourself or anyone else?" and he replies, "No," then they don't have any rationale for holding him, and insurance will not pay. Send him home, he's appropriate for outpatient treatment! Sure.
2
Maybe we can start a campaign to reach and teach women who don't feel they have power to exercise it. This would be a GREAT effort by Mayor DiBlasio to initiate. He needs good PR and our neighbors need the information.
7
How will that prevent their abusers from killing them if they leave?
For those who think it's a matter of simply packing up and leaving an abuser, the matter is further complicated when the partners share children. This may vary state to state; I am familiar with a case in Maryland. Anxious to achieve custody parity, the courts promote shared custody in instances even where the wife/partner has been abused, as long as the children have not been specifically targeted. Even the most disinterested/unengaged parent learns he can continue to terrorize and control his former spouse (and excuse himself from child support), through the convention of shared custody.
In the case with which I am familiar, the abusive partner, within several months, did turn his abuse to the child. (He killed a kitten by throwing it against a wall to demonstrate to a new partner 'who was in charge,' in the child's presence.) Shared custody may be an ideal goal in certain circumstances; however, in the case of an abuser, it almost guarantees a mother will stay to protect her children. In her mind, at least she is present and can see what is happening.
In the case with which I am familiar, the abusive partner, within several months, did turn his abuse to the child. (He killed a kitten by throwing it against a wall to demonstrate to a new partner 'who was in charge,' in the child's presence.) Shared custody may be an ideal goal in certain circumstances; however, in the case of an abuser, it almost guarantees a mother will stay to protect her children. In her mind, at least she is present and can see what is happening.
55
A woman does not have to get a divorce with a custody settlement to take the kids and run in the short term.
1
Honeybee,
You may be right in that one short term instance; however, unless a woman is willing to live in this legal limbo interminably, at some point custody must be established for various reasons, including making school and healthcare decisions and determination of which parent (or both) is considered custodial in the event the child is not returned, etc. Even having waited several months or years, the act of initiating legal proceedings to establish child custody (and/or divorce - not all partners are married) may arouse the sleeping dog to violence. Yet it's impossible to let the sleeping dog lie forever.
You may be right in that one short term instance; however, unless a woman is willing to live in this legal limbo interminably, at some point custody must be established for various reasons, including making school and healthcare decisions and determination of which parent (or both) is considered custodial in the event the child is not returned, etc. Even having waited several months or years, the act of initiating legal proceedings to establish child custody (and/or divorce - not all partners are married) may arouse the sleeping dog to violence. Yet it's impossible to let the sleeping dog lie forever.
5
Actual homicides are impossible to predict. They - like accidents and suicides - occur in situations marked by chaos; they are a matter of chance. But domestic disputes and situations of anger or violence are easy to detect, and the levels of anger and violence can be dimininshed. This is where the police and the social workers and the junior high school teachers and the priests and pastors and friends and neighbors should be working to prevent tragedies such as this one.
I speak from experience with Alternatives to Violence Project workshops in prisons.
I speak from experience with Alternatives to Violence Project workshops in prisons.
8
Agreed, but first society has to find a means to emphasize to the victims that they need to and should speak up and reach out for help. This victim didn't, as unfortunately many don't. Whether it's to keep family matters private, or thinking that it would make a bad situation worse, or even to protect their abusive spouse. I have no doubt that this woman never thought her husband, the father of her children, would murder her. Nobody wants to think that.
1
Ugh. I am sad reading this story and looking at the photos of Ms. Saavedra who looked unhappy even on her wedding day. You know, I am not sure that orders of protection and other "remedies" offered by the justice system help women. I have read more than once of protection orders being ignored or judges refusing to sign because women request them too frequently and the women in question end up dead at the hands of their husbands anyway. I sometimes think the answer may be for women to just flee for their lives. I am not victim-blaming just saying that sometimes we women have to care more for our lives and act accordingly than the justice system pretends to do.
14
Restraining orders seem to have very little effect without a dose of jail time to make them sink in.
11
Many readers comment on of the cultural origins and socioeconomic status of this victim and this repeat offender. Having worked with domestic violence victims at a Superior Court "DV Clinic" in Santa Monica, CA and at the Harriett Buhai Center for Family Law in Los Angeles, I can tell you, Yes, there is a correlation between DV and socioeconomic status, frequently in combination with cultural perceptions of gender roles. BUT, it is dead wrong for the reader to think this kind of horrific abuse does not occur among all classes, cultures, races, educational and income groups - even among the most educated, affluent and privileged of us. An excellent source of hard information with statistics and links to scholarly articles about the widespread DV problem in our society is the American Bar Association report at https://www.americanbar.org/groups/domestic_violence/resources/statistic... .
What about my statement "All classes, races and educational and income groups?" Aside from the notorious 1987 Greenwich Village case of sustained intimate partner violence that culminated in the murder by a member of the New York Bar of a six year old illegally adopted girl, there is the current "stalking" case in the news that involves an alleged perpetrator prominent in "the industry" on the West Coast. There are many more examples out there, every day and they are commonplace.
It's time for us to do some serious collective consciousness-raising about our DV problem, folks.
What about my statement "All classes, races and educational and income groups?" Aside from the notorious 1987 Greenwich Village case of sustained intimate partner violence that culminated in the murder by a member of the New York Bar of a six year old illegally adopted girl, there is the current "stalking" case in the news that involves an alleged perpetrator prominent in "the industry" on the West Coast. There are many more examples out there, every day and they are commonplace.
It's time for us to do some serious collective consciousness-raising about our DV problem, folks.
33
Domestic violence agencies and the police need to publicize the fact that witnessing domestic violence is one of the most traumatic experiences for a child and no one should stay in such a relationship for the "sake of the children."
50
A sad story, tragic. Yet, there is blame, culture and the projected roles onto genders that family, church and society demands. What business does a man have marrying a 15 year old. Who at 15 knows of love? How was the man raised to not have the emotional maturity to accept a crumbling relationship? It happens in every class and race, so the answers are complex. But we should want to ask them if we hope this story doesn't repeat itself. I find family pressure on both men and women are the reason why so many people are unhappy and others very unstable. I ask friends who are married and miserable, why did you marry? They're answer is surprising, "that's what you do." Seems to this unmarried guy, that love is a secondary consideration in most marriages.
18
People are terrified of random violence be it terrorism or simple muggings, but, sadly, you are far more likely to be assaulted by someone you know, particularly if you are a woman.
56
How horrible. But it defies easy solutions. If he was willing to die to kill her, then only incarcerating him forever could protect her. He probably hadn't yet done anything sufficient to legally enable that.
These problems are particularly severe in New York City, due to demographics. About half of all domestic violence homicides in the city are among African-Americans and most of the remainder are among Latin American immigrants. Domestic violence crosses all social lines, but it does not occur equally among all groups. This means more awareness among white middle-class people will save few if any lives.
These problems are particularly severe in New York City, due to demographics. About half of all domestic violence homicides in the city are among African-Americans and most of the remainder are among Latin American immigrants. Domestic violence crosses all social lines, but it does not occur equally among all groups. This means more awareness among white middle-class people will save few if any lives.
8
A familiar pattern, indeed. Familiar to the point of nausea.
Man establishes pattern of abuse. Partner tolerates or enables abuse because of fear, ignorance, self-hatred, or cultural mores. Extended family and community ignore or further enable abuse. Partner finally makes the break. Legal system, if involved at all, ignores blatant danger signals. Abuser proceeds to murder partner, also perhaps self and innocent children.
I'm sick to death of reading these stories. Heartsick. They occur every day in this country. They occur at least monthly in my own region of flyover country.
WHEN will men AND women in this country stop performing this deadly dance?
Man establishes pattern of abuse. Partner tolerates or enables abuse because of fear, ignorance, self-hatred, or cultural mores. Extended family and community ignore or further enable abuse. Partner finally makes the break. Legal system, if involved at all, ignores blatant danger signals. Abuser proceeds to murder partner, also perhaps self and innocent children.
I'm sick to death of reading these stories. Heartsick. They occur every day in this country. They occur at least monthly in my own region of flyover country.
WHEN will men AND women in this country stop performing this deadly dance?
10
This is an important article and very well done and I appreciate it and I look forward to the continuing series. It is a shame that it is marred by this jarring bit of egregious prejudice against the mentally ill:
"like gang killings and attacks by mentally ill people, domestic murders occur overwhelmingly in poor neighborhoods,"
??! Really caught me up short - you're casually lumping mentally ill people in with gang members and people who kill their spouses and partners? This was really offensive and unnecessary.
"like gang killings and attacks by mentally ill people, domestic murders occur overwhelmingly in poor neighborhoods,"
??! Really caught me up short - you're casually lumping mentally ill people in with gang members and people who kill their spouses and partners? This was really offensive and unnecessary.
12
Actually it was meant to cite ONLY the mentally ill who attack people as I read it. It could have been phrased better, and perhaps been more specific--as in delusional, psychotic, paranoid or otherwise mentally ill people. In this case, the portmanteau phraseology is unfortunate.
4
In poorer areas, many people don't detect mental illness (depression, PTSD, bipolar syndrome) or believe it's a cop-out or a sign of weakness, and so it goes untreated. Similarly, people don't detect the severity of domestic abuse because it's considered the norm. People who break off marriages are often considered irresponsible and selfish for putting themselves before their children. I don't believe the author was vilifying people who are mentally ill. It's simply a fact of neighborhoods who aren't granted resources to detect and prevent things that overwhelmingly happen in poor neighborhoods.
Again, it only states a statistical correlation - and it does not seem that unlikely that both gang violence and mental illness could be correlated with the unbelievable stresses of being poor.
Wait, the police had no idea this guy was dangerous? In a neighborhood where people are reluctant to call the cops, this woman called 911 on January 28th and said he had slashed his arm and threatened to kill himself, and she filed for a restraining order the next day. On that same day, the police thought he was unstable enough that they brought him to the hospital for psych evaluation and wrote a domestic incident report for argument and harassment.
And yet the cops say she never told the police she feared for her safety, and the Times is totally on board with that? Maybe the police could ask a few questions in this situation? "Does he hit you?" "Are you afraid for your safety?" They certainly asked me those questions here in Portland, in a similar situation, and they took the kids aside and asked them, too.
And yet the cops say she never told the police she feared for her safety, and the Times is totally on board with that? Maybe the police could ask a few questions in this situation? "Does he hit you?" "Are you afraid for your safety?" They certainly asked me those questions here in Portland, in a similar situation, and they took the kids aside and asked them, too.
97
Yes, I can believe that she didn't want to tell the police about the abusive nature of her marriage, how her husband and the father of her children frightened her. She wasn't raised to be outspoken about marital affairs and had been married at 15, not even an adult yet. NYPD are trained in these matters, to help when they can, but they have to be made aware of it.
3
The question is not whether she told the police. It is: did the police ask?
1
We need to figure out how to improve the self-esteem for women so that they understand their are other options...that their purpose on earth is not just 'decorative' or to serve men or please men at any/all costs. It's a bit unclear in the story, but when she married at the age of 15, was her husband 38 at the time of their marriage (or that he was recently 38)? If the former, that too lends itself to women seeing themselves as 'objects' to be bartered for.
There were clear indications in this story that this man was trouble. Asocial at family gatherings?...shutting himself in a room?...emotionless?...drank a lot?
So long as we cannot fix such men, women at least should have the power and wherewithal to not get involved with such men in the first place. And the way to accomplish that is to improve women's self-esteem. In most instances of domestic abuse, it doesn't just come out of nowhere. It's a long-term pattern. Women need not be ashamed. They need to acknowledge the abuse to others (friends, family, social workers) and ask for help to escape.
I myself was in an abusive relationship a long time ago, and now that I have gone through lots of therapy and 'healed', while I don't excuse the man's behavior, I recognize that at the time, I had very low self-esteem. I was the perfect 'target'. Serial abusers often get involved with serial 'abusees'. It's no accident. We must work to fix the abusers AND the 'abusees'.
There were clear indications in this story that this man was trouble. Asocial at family gatherings?...shutting himself in a room?...emotionless?...drank a lot?
So long as we cannot fix such men, women at least should have the power and wherewithal to not get involved with such men in the first place. And the way to accomplish that is to improve women's self-esteem. In most instances of domestic abuse, it doesn't just come out of nowhere. It's a long-term pattern. Women need not be ashamed. They need to acknowledge the abuse to others (friends, family, social workers) and ask for help to escape.
I myself was in an abusive relationship a long time ago, and now that I have gone through lots of therapy and 'healed', while I don't excuse the man's behavior, I recognize that at the time, I had very low self-esteem. I was the perfect 'target'. Serial abusers often get involved with serial 'abusees'. It's no accident. We must work to fix the abusers AND the 'abusees'.
19
I must disagree. We MUST change the men. We CAN change the men. To say that we can't is to give them the excuse they need to justify the abuse, that "they just can't help themselves".
It's not just about getting women to stand up for themselves...they need support in order to stand up to their abusers successfully, because otherwise they'll try but fall right back into the abusers hands. We need to let abusers know their behavior is inexcusable, is entirely their own fault, and that we know they are doing it deliberately.
It's not just about getting women to stand up for themselves...they need support in order to stand up to their abusers successfully, because otherwise they'll try but fall right back into the abusers hands. We need to let abusers know their behavior is inexcusable, is entirely their own fault, and that we know they are doing it deliberately.
10
"Why Do Women Love Men Who Hate Them?" As the book provocatively asked. That's something that has to change, and only one person can do it.
1
I think that the sort of men who beat and kill their wives already know their actions are wrong. They just don't care.
4
Domestic abuse goes beyond culture and gender. It happens across all types of relationships. People ask why doesn't the person who is being abused just leave the relationship. As you can see from this article, because it can lead to the death to one or more family members. I once had a friend who tried to leave her boyfriend and he shot at her as she ran across the front yard. Domestic abuse is insidious and is often passed from one generation to another. I do not know the answer, all I can say is that no one has the right to physically hurt another person--ever.
30
Actually that's not true. It's worse in cultures and groups where men and the society feel that they have total control over the women and children in their lives.
28
Wrong. You have the absolute right to hurt someone who is hurting you and if the hurting is extreme, to kill them.
6
unfortunately your remark while true is not politically correct especially amontg nyt readers. therefore, it will not receive the thumbs up it richly deserves.
My childhood friend married a jerk who threatened to commit suicide if she didn't marry him. It was a bad marriage. She left. He broke into her apartment, beat her, tried to kill her. She got away &, battered, went to her parents. They insisted she not involve the police - they were fearful it would ruin his career. Her husband was a physician. So was she.
She remarried. Her 2nd husband was a jerk who cheated & abandoned her for his girlfriend after baby died. She divorced him but was forced to assume half his debt, which bankrupted her. He was also a physician, they met as doctors in the same hospital.
She was beautiful, half Irish, half Jewish. Her parents were wealthy professionals, lived in a beautiful lake house, sent her to prep school, college, med school.
She was not a girl who got married at 15 in in a small town in Mexico.
What happened? The family secret. Her successful father was an alcoholic who beat her throughout her childhood. I believe she married those terrible men because her parents convinced her she was worthless - abusing her & refusing to protect her. They raised her in style, put her though college & med school. She became a terrific doctor. Yet her life was wretched.
I believe all this was avoidable. If you're exposed to physical or psychological violence in childhood & never feel safe, you'll seek it out as an adult unless you undergo profound change and escape. She never did.
She was a brilliant woman & a great friend. I miss her.
She remarried. Her 2nd husband was a jerk who cheated & abandoned her for his girlfriend after baby died. She divorced him but was forced to assume half his debt, which bankrupted her. He was also a physician, they met as doctors in the same hospital.
She was beautiful, half Irish, half Jewish. Her parents were wealthy professionals, lived in a beautiful lake house, sent her to prep school, college, med school.
She was not a girl who got married at 15 in in a small town in Mexico.
What happened? The family secret. Her successful father was an alcoholic who beat her throughout her childhood. I believe she married those terrible men because her parents convinced her she was worthless - abusing her & refusing to protect her. They raised her in style, put her though college & med school. She became a terrific doctor. Yet her life was wretched.
I believe all this was avoidable. If you're exposed to physical or psychological violence in childhood & never feel safe, you'll seek it out as an adult unless you undergo profound change and escape. She never did.
She was a brilliant woman & a great friend. I miss her.
145
I talked to a cop buddy of mine the other day.
Here's the story. He's got years on the job and can spot a dirtbag a mile away. One day, a niece - a pretty, pretty girl says my friend - turns up with her new "boyfriend." Naturally, he is a dirtbag…no job, high all the time, but he's "exciting" to the young girl.
The cop uncle warns her off, she protests…"you can't tell me what to do!!!" Cop uncle shrugs and gives a final warning…"when you finally realize he's trouble, he's not going to let you walk away."
It plays out exactly like the cop predicted, culminating in an incident where the "boyfriend" hit he girl. She wants out, "boyfriend" says he'll kill her before that happens.
She calls the uncle wanting retribution. The uncle, one eye on his pension, refuses to get involved. Call 911, he says.
Not long after, the dirtbag gets locked up on an unrelated charge and the girl is able to move and change her numbers.
So, yes, domestic violence happens to all kinds of people.
Here's the story. He's got years on the job and can spot a dirtbag a mile away. One day, a niece - a pretty, pretty girl says my friend - turns up with her new "boyfriend." Naturally, he is a dirtbag…no job, high all the time, but he's "exciting" to the young girl.
The cop uncle warns her off, she protests…"you can't tell me what to do!!!" Cop uncle shrugs and gives a final warning…"when you finally realize he's trouble, he's not going to let you walk away."
It plays out exactly like the cop predicted, culminating in an incident where the "boyfriend" hit he girl. She wants out, "boyfriend" says he'll kill her before that happens.
She calls the uncle wanting retribution. The uncle, one eye on his pension, refuses to get involved. Call 911, he says.
Not long after, the dirtbag gets locked up on an unrelated charge and the girl is able to move and change her numbers.
So, yes, domestic violence happens to all kinds of people.
10
So true. Would I have married an alcoholic who screamed at me and threw things at me (divorced several decades now) if I hadn't been raised by a mother who was an alcoholic who screamed at me and hit me?
I don't think so.
"It's so familiar, it must be real love." (yeah, familiar in every sense of the word!)
I don't think so.
"It's so familiar, it must be real love." (yeah, familiar in every sense of the word!)
2
I well remember the horror I felt in 1962 or so, 12 yrs old, when a murderous husband stabbed his wife to death with a large knife as she waitressed in a popular Atlantic City boardwalk restaurant called Hackney's -- on Easter Sunday, as 100 or so customers watched helplessly. I felt sooo sorry for that woman, for her humiliation as much as her pain, I can still feel it. I really enjoyed it when the husband became the last man to be executed in New Jersey, in the electric chair. We on longer have such appropriate punishment in too many states.
30
And yet do you suppose that executing him has in some way lessened the occurrence of domestic violence, since then? Seems not.
I'm baffled that a hundred people could have watched "helplessly". A hundred people could have killed the murderer with astonishing ease before he took the woman's life.
3
This homicidal and suicidal man who cut himself 17 times on his arm and abused alcohol got released from the psychiatric ward after two days. Apparently no help happened. Where is the logic in that? You don't need to be a psychiatrist to realize that this was a tragic oversight and that he needed more time to sort out his deranged behavior in an institutional setting.
152
How much use is it to serve restraining order to an mentally unstable person who is not on meds or under monitoring? How far can authority, and society at large, contain a mental patient? All too often, we don't, all in the name of civil liberty and freedom of the individual. So, they go free and we wait until incidents/accidents, and then police and medical examiner come in to clean up the aftermath, all to the detriment of the victim(s) and their families. We are forever reactive to what has happened, as opposed to what MIGHT happen. Then again, we can't be locking up every nutjobs out there for fear of what they might do because we simply don't have that kind of resources. It's damn if we do, and damn if we don't.
1
This the way our country's psychiatric care system works. 48 hour observation and out the door.
2
Ruth New York
You ask, "Where is the logic in that ?"
The very real answer, is that the insurance company would not pay for more than 2 days.
The psychiatrist would agree with you that Mr. Uribe needed more than 2 days but "utilization review" warned the hospital that they would NOT be paid for more than 2 days.
Are we all willing to devote more of our tax $$$ to keeping him & her safe ?
You ask, "Where is the logic in that ?"
The very real answer, is that the insurance company would not pay for more than 2 days.
The psychiatrist would agree with you that Mr. Uribe needed more than 2 days but "utilization review" warned the hospital that they would NOT be paid for more than 2 days.
Are we all willing to devote more of our tax $$$ to keeping him & her safe ?
11
Somewhere after the third or fourth cut, Mr. Uribe should have been placed in a mental hospital and left there until someone discovered a cure for him.
Alternately, Ms. Saavedra should have been placed in a modified witness protection program of some kind where Mr. Uribe could never find her.
Alternately, Ms. Saavedra should have been placed in a modified witness protection program of some kind where Mr. Uribe could never find her.
14
"He posted photos online of cases of Modelo beer stacked six feet high, and saved his displays of emotion for the makeshift bars where he met friends."
An angry alcoholic. Don't have to read much further than that.
An angry alcoholic. Don't have to read much further than that.
28
I see no mention in this article of what will become of the children. Sure, your focus is on documenting murders but how about showing some concern and interest in the primary victims here?
6
I think the woman who died is the primary victim here, though I agree that I would have liked to hear what will happen to the kids.
6
Darcy, a most caring, nurturing woman, was killed in her home, stalked for months by a former boyfriend. She had restraining orders filed and feared deeply for her safety. This man entered her home, found her hiding in the bedroom closet - shot her in the stomach and head. He texted her husband (they were working toward reconciling) and told him he killed her. The then went to police headquarters, admitted his killing. Now he is pleading not guilty. Our community is heartbroken for Darcy, her girls and husband. Sad, so very sad.
12
Jealousy, abuse, control--it's called Coercive Control. When a victim gets free of the control, the abuser sometimes murders. If the police had been trained in coercive control, they may have been able to intervene more adequately. My heart goes out to the children...
31
We need both short-term solutions, and services that acknowledge that some fear involving the police, or are not comfortable putting their abusive loved one's safety, freedom or immigration status at risk. We also need to be in the schools, churches and anywhere else talking about how we teach our boys about manhood. We fail to teach sex ed., and healthy relationships in school, then wonder why dating violence and campus sexual assault are out of control. Of course intervention when there's violence is appropriate, but as this case demonstrates, if we don't start much sooner, the point at which the violence becomes apparent to everyone can be far too late.
5
Woman abuse is much too common, and, in addition to appropriate punishment for the perpetrators, needs to be discussed in high schools. Girls must be persuaded that it is not OK for their husband to abuse them physically or mentally--and they need to speak out about it. And, of course, teenage boys should be made to know that it is not their right to strike or torture their wives--no matter what their culture may believe regarding the matter.
Our women's shelters are always overcrowded, 6" thick doors have to be used, and after 3 weeks or so, women have to move out to make room for more recent victims. This is intolerable in 2016!
Men need to be severely punished by the same jail time they would do if they harassed their neighbor, their mayor or their co-workers by hitting them or cutting them. That police would ignore women's complaints of physical violence against them by a partner is abominable. It is assault and battery, no matter who the victim is.
Our women's shelters are always overcrowded, 6" thick doors have to be used, and after 3 weeks or so, women have to move out to make room for more recent victims. This is intolerable in 2016!
Men need to be severely punished by the same jail time they would do if they harassed their neighbor, their mayor or their co-workers by hitting them or cutting them. That police would ignore women's complaints of physical violence against them by a partner is abominable. It is assault and battery, no matter who the victim is.
51
Our women's shelters are always overcrowded
---------------------
What is the breakdown of the sheltered women by country of origin? Since you are in Arizona.
---------------------
What is the breakdown of the sheltered women by country of origin? Since you are in Arizona.
And let's not restrict it to abuse of women by men...the reverse is also true more often than many will admit.
It needs to be noted that domestic abusers can be women also, and statistics show that more and more men are victims of domestic abuse, the abusers being their wives.
All domestic abusers need to be severely punished, not just the men.
All domestic abusers need to be severely punished, not just the men.
My wife is up in Santa Rosa for the 2nd weekend in a row, helping her sister to move while sis's husband is still confined in the alcoholic rehab center. She found airline-size bottles of booze hidden all thru the house last weekend. I would go with her (with my legal gun) if he were not confined, I am paranoid since most spousal violence occurs at time of the break-up. His wife has no choice after several years of his manipulations; following 1 rehab term he was blind drunk 90 minutes after getting out. In 2005 he sang a ballad at our daughter's wedding and his marriage of 20 years was sturdy. He's never been violent - but he's never been divorced, either; things change.
11
Yes Good idea Charles, bring your gun - that's going to solve the problem. A friendly advice to you : do NOT bring your gun, bring a police officer with you instead. They'll know what to do, and you don't.
2
The gun? Depends on how promptly you can get help. If "when trouble is right there help is half an hour away," bring the gun.
When the a football team can't even fire a goon who punches his wife out and drags her down a hotel hallway by her hair, is it any wonder assaulting one's wife still elicits only shrugs from so many? (To keep it fair, assaulting your husband is equally detestable behavior.) Abusers don't deserve empathy, understanding or carefully-worded rebukes: they deserve to be shamed as the slimy wretches they are.
58
Domestic violence happens in every socioeconomic group. There may be specific challenges associated with each group, but it is not at all unique to poor communities. There's always a lot of judging going on, usually by people who've been lucky -and yes it mostly random luck- who have not been in an abusive relationship. It boils down to the good old American "pull yourself up by the bootstraps" mentality. "Why wouldn't she just leave" is the perfect example. Never mind that there is overwhelming evidence that abused women are at greatest risk of physical harm when they try to leave an abusive partner.
173
Thank you for that comment. I am educated and I did leave, and 20 years later, I have never recovered financially or in terms of health. Of course, I have my life. But most people don't understand the realities of trying to remake a decent life as well as abused women do. Thankfully, I had no children. If I had, I would undoubtedly have tried to stay even longer in order to see if he would change - as he promised over and over. Help from my church? Nothing. Help from my parents? Nothing. Women in this situation are making rational, complex decisions while trying to live up to the "be loving" scenario that we spin for women in our culture. And we offer little more than a temporary shelter, if that, beyond which there is job discrimination, condescension from the medical establishment, and an economy that makes it almost impossible to make it as anything other than a two-income couple. My prayers for her children.
10
Thank you for your comment. As former a child of an abused mother who did not leave -- it spite of my begging-- your perspective really helps. It is not easy to leave and start a new life. As a stay at home mom had no financial freedom, which as a kid, is not something I could understand.
Just leaving is also usually not possible. Where would she go? What about her child? How would she support herself if she was running away? What if relatives revealed where she was? Some people have no idea what happens outside their own home.
Abuse of family members is a serious psychiatric disease that should be treated from the initial attack until both the perpetrator and the family members are able to cut their sick ties to the mentally ill offender.
There is no other effective treatment in all of human history.
If law enforcement can't get a handle on this domestic crime, our entire civilization is doomed to repeat forever after.
There is no other effective treatment in all of human history.
If law enforcement can't get a handle on this domestic crime, our entire civilization is doomed to repeat forever after.
14
Oddly constructed piece; why did the writers bury the real pattern - a sadly typical narcissistic, abusive male who thinks he owns his family - in the last sentence, and foreground the victim-blaming exotica about poor immigrants and mental health bureaucracies? This isn't unique to Mexicans or immigrants or those deemed mentally ill. It's common to cultures who allow males to grow up thinking they are adjudicators of others' rights to be alive and safe.
293
I agree with your premise, but women who have limited economic opportunities due to early marriage/childbearing, limited education, and immigration issues are particularly vulnerable to being stuck in these relationships.
6
So we should focus more resources on rehabilitating these "typical" men (what a generalization btw) than we do currently. Or because they are "typical" me, should we just send them to prison and write them off as broken? The solution isn't clear.
1
"The killing of Ms. Saavedra...emerged from the same swirl of jealousy, mental instability and silence that makes it difficult for investigators across the city to anticipate domestic violence." Poppycock. There were very clear indicators all along the way, including her request for a restraining order. In fact, there's usually a very clear pattern to these sorts of murders, and the police very often ignore or underestimate the danger signs. Also, I know it's P.C. to use the word "spouse" in the headline, but let's be honest...more than 90% of homicides are committed by men.
183
The patterns are always there. Most times, like this one, the signs are blatant. I wish this family had the ability to relocate. What good is the order of protection if the offender is going to just barge in and fatally harm someone?
23
Sad start to a Saturday morning.
Human beings.
With every manner of frailty and disorder.
We cannot address it all.
But we can push, as a society, for the best policies and practices that help families to be stable and functional. There are so many good ideas out there.
Even then, many will fall through the cracks of this life.
But, hopefully fewer.
I wish for the kids people who can love and comfort them.
And strength…somehow.
Human beings.
With every manner of frailty and disorder.
We cannot address it all.
But we can push, as a society, for the best policies and practices that help families to be stable and functional. There are so many good ideas out there.
Even then, many will fall through the cracks of this life.
But, hopefully fewer.
I wish for the kids people who can love and comfort them.
And strength…somehow.
6
And when an abused woman finally summons up the courage to leave the abuser, the commissioners/judges/GAL/evaluators in the family court system all require "objective," "neutral," "third-party," evidence. Anyone in a relationship like this knows that desperate measures are taken to keep the crazy, dangerous, terrifying reality a secret. Hidden behind closed doors. It makes it impossible to leave and actually have any chance at a safe future. I completely understand why women stay.
54
So so sad...We can see these situations coming from a mile away, yet we don't have the will to stop domestic abuse and homicide. This is a type of terrorism for victims and their families and must be treated as such. We need services for those at risk of carrying out such horrific acts and solid, accessible help for those trying to escape domestic violence.
5
It's an enormous tragedy but in the end, it's up to people (usually women) to decide not to accept abuse and to do something about it. We cannot assign police or mental health workers to every poor person in the country. We can provide services but in the end, they must wish to USE those services.
It's really no different than medical care. Do we monitor everyone's blood pressure daily? Do we check daily for a heart attack? No! We expect that people take some responsibility for their own health by calling an ambulance, going to an ER or an ambulatory clinic. It is no different with abuse - they must reach out and when they don't, whatever the cultural reason, it should not be seen as a failure on the part of society or the government.
It's really no different than medical care. Do we monitor everyone's blood pressure daily? Do we check daily for a heart attack? No! We expect that people take some responsibility for their own health by calling an ambulance, going to an ER or an ambulatory clinic. It is no different with abuse - they must reach out and when they don't, whatever the cultural reason, it should not be seen as a failure on the part of society or the government.
7
India, next time your significant other punches or verbally abuses you or threatens you and then apologizes, see what you do. If you are dependent upon that person for anything, if you have had children with that person, or if that person is an upright member of the community, see how fast you'll be to run to the police for help or to report what that person did to you. Then see how quick the police are to help you. Many who are abused reach out and receive little or no help until it's too late. Then their neighbors and friends, who may or may not know what was happening, express surprise because the abuser was such a nice person.
As someone who was abused by my parents, who were such nice people, I lived through not being believed. I was molested by the family doctor. I never told my parents because they abused me and the doctor would have denied it with me being accused of lying. It's not as simple as you make it out to be when it comes to reporting abuse or getting something done. There are human judgements involved and some of them interfere with getting abused people into safe situations.
As someone who was abused by my parents, who were such nice people, I lived through not being believed. I was molested by the family doctor. I never told my parents because they abused me and the doctor would have denied it with me being accused of lying. It's not as simple as you make it out to be when it comes to reporting abuse or getting something done. There are human judgements involved and some of them interfere with getting abused people into safe situations.
131
Mrs. Saavedra did make a complaint to the police, but, for whatever reason, the order of protection wasn't served. Did she understand that she had to contact the authorities again to make that happen? Did anyone followup with her in the absence of that contact? Would the order have really stopped her husband, who was willing to kill not only her, but himself? He had been hospitalized and examined by mental health providers, but was soon released, apparently without conditions, ongoing counseling, or behavior-modifying medications. Hindsight being 20/20, it's very easy to criticize the authorities, but it seems to me that more could have been, and, indeed, given that at least one life was obviously at stake, should have been done to help those on both sides of this tragedy.
22
I know, right? The nerve of this woman, getting herself murdered like that. And to do it in front of her son as well -- had she no shame? I mean, we all know that thwarting the murderous impulses of a controlling, unstable husband is as easy as popping a pill to keep your blood pressure in check. And of course murder is always the fault of the victim and never the fault of the killer.
32
Upon immigrating to the U.S., if more resources were made available to counter these statically avoidable turnouts, we would all see milder and more understandable family struggles.
3
Dave is totally correct.
I know that verbal abuse and emotional abuse are horrible but physical abuse is a whole different ballgame. Until you've walked in their shoes, no one, and I mean no one, can understand how terrified these women are of their partners. And that's exactly how the abusers want it. That's an important part of their "thrill."
Hopefully, someday, people will wake up and drastic changes will be made in the laws concerning this issue. And much more help will be made available to these women.
Hopefully, someday, people will wake up and drastic changes will be made in the laws concerning this issue. And much more help will be made available to these women.
78
Research does not support the idea that physical is "a whole other ballgame" - separate from emotional. The terror you describe comes as much from the emotional abuse as the physical, and the former almost always accompanies the latter. After interviewing battered women, researchers have written: "from the perspective of abused women, physical abuse is often so intertwined with acts of psychological and sexual degradation as to be virtually indistinguishable." (Ellsberg - candies in helll). Both physical and emotional abuse are important parts of what some call "domestic terrorism". In fact a interviews suggest that battered women often find the long term emotional abuse as or more traumatic than the physical. And lest anyone say that only the physical violence kills, I would say both emotional abuse and nonlethal physical violence should both be taken seriously as a red flag for lethal danger. Its really important to take emotional abuse seriously and to equip our daughters with the resources they need to recognize and end such relationships.
5
Please tell me what supporting studies, documents, and /or, specific statistics you have that will validate the comment about killings by the mentally ill occurring overwhelmingly in poor neighborhoods? By the way, let's be clear here; people may have a mental illness, but that is only a part of who they are, and it is exceedingly stigmatizing and irresponsible to refer to those with a brain illness as simply ' the mentally ill'.
7
Hi, I think that domestic violence should be stopped as soon as possible. No more shame or staying for the kids. Eugenia Renskoff
9
just read this, we have alot of problems in this world, the cultural differences from country to country in what is acceptable in mariage is vast from culture to culture. And i wish it were that easy to find the answers. I also wish the New York Times would'nt be so pollitically correct in addressing these issues and report everything, let the readers make up their minds
7
It wasn't a "swirl of instability". It was a man killing his wife. Obscuring the plain brutality of this murder with ambiguous flourishes like "swirl of instability" lends credence to the "everyone shares the blame" excuse of violence against women. It wasn't a "swirl of jealousy and silence" it was violent control coupled with a law enforcement that poor people can't trust. Better to be accurate than writerly.
184
[[PossumTrot Seattle
It wasn't a "swirl of jealousy and silence" it was violent control coupled with a law enforcement that poor people can't trust. Better to be accurate than writerly.]]
"Poor" people use the cops more frequently than middle income or wealthy people. Rather than place the blame on cops - who only go where they are sent - how about you look into her family and friends, who probably made many excuses for the home environment?
How about we investigate the home environments of this murderer's drinking buddies?
How about we investigate the human trafficking network that brought thousands or people to one neighborhood in New York?
Trust the cops, don't trust the cops…who cares? The cops didn't officiate at their wedding.
It wasn't a "swirl of jealousy and silence" it was violent control coupled with a law enforcement that poor people can't trust. Better to be accurate than writerly.]]
"Poor" people use the cops more frequently than middle income or wealthy people. Rather than place the blame on cops - who only go where they are sent - how about you look into her family and friends, who probably made many excuses for the home environment?
How about we investigate the home environments of this murderer's drinking buddies?
How about we investigate the human trafficking network that brought thousands or people to one neighborhood in New York?
Trust the cops, don't trust the cops…who cares? The cops didn't officiate at their wedding.
3
Excellent comment, PT. It's a gritty, somebody's-dead, blood-on-the-floor topic. It shouldn't be presented as something dainty and literary.
1
"she filed for a temporary order of protection with Bronx Family Court on Jan. 29, after Mr. Uribe cut himself and banged on her door; the order was never served."
the commander of the 40th Precinct detective squad, expressed regret that Ms. Saavedra had never told officers she feared for her safety. “Maybe we could have prevented that,” he said.
Um she did. That's what filing an order of protection means.
the commander of the 40th Precinct detective squad, expressed regret that Ms. Saavedra had never told officers she feared for her safety. “Maybe we could have prevented that,” he said.
Um she did. That's what filing an order of protection means.
254
That is incorrect. At least in my state (Missouri), filing an order of protection is a civil matter and does not involve the police unless an order (ex parte or full) is granted, at which time the police are notified. If someone just files a petition for an order and then it is dismissed for whatever reason without being adjudicated, then the police never see it.
6
Cover up for poor police work
1
I hope the children are getting the best care available to help them through the grief, anger, loss and confusion this horrific tragedy can't but generate. In many cases, families do not know that low-cost mental health care is available, but there are clinics throughout the city that can serve them.
12
The problem is the power differential between men and women. As long as our society accepts that men are the responsible for defining women's behavior, sexuality and reproductive lives, we will continued to be plagued with stories of women murdered by their domestic partners. In 2016, it is not OK for men to exert so much power over women's lives.
117
The language here - "There were 10 intimate-partner homicides," "People without jobs are more likely to abuse their partners," "“The attitudes that drive domestic violence are deeply embedded in our culture" - carefully avoids gendering its subjects.
While there are exceptions, what we are really talking about is the persistent problem of men physically and emotionally abusing women, and in some cases, murdering them - that's what's "deeply embedded in our culture." I think it's worth being clearer about that.
While there are exceptions, what we are really talking about is the persistent problem of men physically and emotionally abusing women, and in some cases, murdering them - that's what's "deeply embedded in our culture." I think it's worth being clearer about that.
122
Figuring out what prevents people from speaking out on domestic violence is easy. Women are treated horrifically by the system that is supposed to protect them. How are you supposed to prove domestic violence that is behind closed doors? It is he said/she said. Wealthy men who abuse women then use the court system to do what they can no longer do with their hands. They file motion after motion, appeal after appeal. Women are not or barely awarded legally fees. The goal is to exhaust them until they cave and are impoverished.
No one cares about low-income women who are abused. They are just told to go to shelters where they are housed like criminals.
The solutions provided are feel good because women who are abused are not consulted nor does society really care. The women are routinely asked, why didn't you leave rather than what can we do to help. Not about us without us is a frequently used statement in the disability community and is true here as well.
Having testified before the Judiciary Committee in Congress, the Moreland Commission and the NYS Bar Ethics Committee, I am fully convince that the system does not want to correct itself because the solutions are simple Judges need to be trained and educated on the symptoms and tell tale signs of abuse. They are not. There is NO TRAINING. Women need access to quality legal help in both the criminal and civil systems.
Stop telling women to break the silence and then fail to provide a safety net for those who do.
No one cares about low-income women who are abused. They are just told to go to shelters where they are housed like criminals.
The solutions provided are feel good because women who are abused are not consulted nor does society really care. The women are routinely asked, why didn't you leave rather than what can we do to help. Not about us without us is a frequently used statement in the disability community and is true here as well.
Having testified before the Judiciary Committee in Congress, the Moreland Commission and the NYS Bar Ethics Committee, I am fully convince that the system does not want to correct itself because the solutions are simple Judges need to be trained and educated on the symptoms and tell tale signs of abuse. They are not. There is NO TRAINING. Women need access to quality legal help in both the criminal and civil systems.
Stop telling women to break the silence and then fail to provide a safety net for those who do.
91
Exactly. The only edit I would make is to note that this isn't a "low-income women" thing. I am living through it now and can attest to the fact that "[n]o one cares about ... WOMEN WHO ARE ABUSED." Those few who do - the advocates, the lawyers who specialize in domestic violence divorce cases, the GALs and mental health specialists who "get it" - are often considered (or at least characterized) as being just as "biased" and "unstable" as the women they support/represent. God bless them! Without these saints, abused women and their children would truly have no one.
4
Appreciate the commitment to documenting these homicides, to telling the tortured stories of the women murdered and the deeply wounded and traumatized children. At the same time, it's concerning that the intention of this series is "to understand what drives such violence." For anyone seeking to understand why some men kill the women they profess to love, extensive information is available at the click of laptop key.
A more valuable intention may be to explore why "understanding" hasn't saved the lives of the women whose stories are being told.
A more valuable intention may be to explore why "understanding" hasn't saved the lives of the women whose stories are being told.
13
Incidence of domestic violence leading to murder aren't specific to any race, ethnicity or class. A certain percentage of me apparently feel that their wives or girlfriends are their property and therefore can subject them to anything and everything - like I can slash my couch if I fee like it. Once it becomes apparent that a relationship involves this male ownership syndrome, the woman should be in an arrangement similar to the witness protection program.
23
In my work as a family lawyer I see many levels of abuse, some physical, many emotional. There are myriad reasons women stay in abusive relationships; I'm a lawyer, not a therapist, so I can't explain them, but I see it over and over again in my practice. And abuse knows no economic or ethnic boundaries. It takes its tolls over many years within the privacy of homes, eating away at the self-esteem and confidence of the victim.
I strongly believe that it is the lack of options that, in the minds of abuse victims, supports maintaining the status quo, as bad as it appears from the outside looking in. There needs to be some type of transitional residence for women and their children to go to where they can feel safe and where there is psychological counseling and job training. Self sufficiency is hard -psychological and financial - but I'm an optimist and believe that if women feel safe and supported, it can be achieved. It is certainly a worthwhile goal.
I'd love to hear from the non-profits working on these places.
I strongly believe that it is the lack of options that, in the minds of abuse victims, supports maintaining the status quo, as bad as it appears from the outside looking in. There needs to be some type of transitional residence for women and their children to go to where they can feel safe and where there is psychological counseling and job training. Self sufficiency is hard -psychological and financial - but I'm an optimist and believe that if women feel safe and supported, it can be achieved. It is certainly a worthwhile goal.
I'd love to hear from the non-profits working on these places.
27
I think that the minute the Police are summoned to a home by someone who alleges violence against her person and they witness evidence of physical violence on her person, they should take the victim to a true shelter, which can house and shelter the kids and her (generally a woman), where she can rest, collect herself, connect with assistance, get legal assistance to prevent her employer from firing her (here in California the Labor Code and the Ralph Act prevent an employer from acting against the employee in anyway who is a victim of DV).
1
There is a real tragedy here but I wonder what it can teach us. Here is a alcoholic, possibly mentally deranged man who beat his wife. When she had had enough, she (quite justifiably it seems, but in any event inevitably) took up with another man (the reference in the article to the husband's "paranoia" about the affair seems misplaced since other reporting indicates the affair was quite real). Jealousy proved fatal. What can we learn from this? Sadly, not much -- except for the important procedural point the article makes that the victims of domestic violence ought to have an easier time serving orders of protection.
3
I'd like to see the New York Times follow the story state-by-state, of what happens to women who report domestic abuse, obtain restraining orders and try to get their spouses into mandatory Anger Management programs.
In the Midwest, a woman can feel like she’s fallen down Alice's rabbit hole when she reaches out for justice. And of course, a woman with few financial resources, young children to feed and a house to make payments on, finds out there's little money left over for what ultimately will shape her life and her children's lives: the divorce process.
In a judicial system riddled with advantages for males, plenty of leeway is allowed for the exercise of their privilege, as legal decisions are made that punish the children and the wife who stood up to abuse. Too often with judicial blessing, a woman and her children continue to be abused throughout the divorce process, and long after.
In the Midwest, a woman can feel like she’s fallen down Alice's rabbit hole when she reaches out for justice. And of course, a woman with few financial resources, young children to feed and a house to make payments on, finds out there's little money left over for what ultimately will shape her life and her children's lives: the divorce process.
In a judicial system riddled with advantages for males, plenty of leeway is allowed for the exercise of their privilege, as legal decisions are made that punish the children and the wife who stood up to abuse. Too often with judicial blessing, a woman and her children continue to be abused throughout the divorce process, and long after.
90
It's hard not to burn with anger every time I read another "familiar pattern" story like this. There are two quotes in the article that draw my attention, “The attitudes that drive domestic violence are deeply embedded in our culture, and are very persistent,” and, “Nadia Saavedra’s death underscores the urgent need to intervene well before violence happens." These two insights are the most familiar and maddening elements of this story. I suspect the latter quote is referring to earlier intervention by some social institution into a dangerous domestic relationship. But, if we put the two quotes together, we get a better perspective on how much earlier we need to intervene.
I have begun to believe it is hopeless. The lock on power that men have on this planet through man-made religious doctrine and other immovable social convention is quite likely to follow us to the end of human existence. I wish some one could convince me otherwise.
I have begun to believe it is hopeless. The lock on power that men have on this planet through man-made religious doctrine and other immovable social convention is quite likely to follow us to the end of human existence. I wish some one could convince me otherwise.
41
It is the lack of money - the lack of money which Ms. Saavedra needed to flee with her children and relocate, the lack of money to secure and retain counsel to effectively obtain a permanent restraining order and means with which to get her husband to court, wherein the court could order him directly to a medical facility for review and detention. Humanely, Mr. Uribe needed someone to penetrate his mind that expressed paranoia and possibly schizophrenia. He had delusions. He needed someone to walk him into a medical clinic and get him to take prescription medication for his disturbing behavior. If anything, he had a macho environment surrounding him. Tough guys who do mechanical work don't need meds. Right?
Bottom line. Lack of money.
Bottom line. Lack of money.
3
It has nothing to do with a lack of money. I grew up in a household with abuse and my mother had the money to leave.
2
through man-made religious doctrine and other immovable social convention is quite likely to follow us to the end of human existence.
----------------------------
You conveniently omit any mention of irreligious, secular countries, many of them officially atheist, where war crimes, genocides, slavery, and official corruption have thrived for a century of more, and not a religion in sight. Feel free to explain.
----------------------------
You conveniently omit any mention of irreligious, secular countries, many of them officially atheist, where war crimes, genocides, slavery, and official corruption have thrived for a century of more, and not a religion in sight. Feel free to explain.
2
When a man is able to take care of his family, he has a reason to be happy, a reason to live. I see the Mexican families shopping, they have a very high regard for family, as do all men.
Jobs, quality of life and dignity all play into the mental health crisis in this country. Some cultures havee no care, the woman can work, the man stay home; however the Mexican culture seems immersed in the culture of family.
This is very sad, especially for the children.
Mental health situations could have possibly provided him with treatment. but mental health is an over burdened under paid industry. Many times the therapists are in need of help due to the over working of resources and the incapable ability to handle the in human culture we live in today.
Had the man been hospitalized, treated could this have been a different turnout? God Bless us all.
Jobs, quality of life and dignity all play into the mental health crisis in this country. Some cultures havee no care, the woman can work, the man stay home; however the Mexican culture seems immersed in the culture of family.
This is very sad, especially for the children.
Mental health situations could have possibly provided him with treatment. but mental health is an over burdened under paid industry. Many times the therapists are in need of help due to the over working of resources and the incapable ability to handle the in human culture we live in today.
Had the man been hospitalized, treated could this have been a different turnout? God Bless us all.
5
Good heavens, so all -- all! -- men have a very high regard for family, do they?
Including the ones who try to impregnate as many women as they can, collecting babies like belt notches? Including the stalkers, or the ones that look at child pornography, or the rapists?
How about the ones who spend their money building bombs and leave their kids with friends or relatives when they go on terrorist missions?
Or the ones who think that women who for health reasons need to terminate their pregancies nevertheless feel it's better for these women to die despite possibly having a couple of kids to take care of? (Ah, but these women are not a part of their families. No doubt they'd get their own wives and daughters to a doctor pronto.)
Why not just say that many men love their families? Can we just admit that some men are feral and just as likely to eat their families, metaphorically, as to care for them?
Including the ones who try to impregnate as many women as they can, collecting babies like belt notches? Including the stalkers, or the ones that look at child pornography, or the rapists?
How about the ones who spend their money building bombs and leave their kids with friends or relatives when they go on terrorist missions?
Or the ones who think that women who for health reasons need to terminate their pregancies nevertheless feel it's better for these women to die despite possibly having a couple of kids to take care of? (Ah, but these women are not a part of their families. No doubt they'd get their own wives and daughters to a doctor pronto.)
Why not just say that many men love their families? Can we just admit that some men are feral and just as likely to eat their families, metaphorically, as to care for them?
7
This case has nothing to do with Mexican culture, it has to do with one evil man.
5
It has everything to do with the culture of patriarchy which is pretty much universal.
3
Even though it was written at least 15-20 years ago, I strongly recommend women and teenage girls (and if I may be so bold to say -- their male counterparts) read "The Gift of Fear" by Gavin de Becker. The book lays out an argument for the many ways in which people ignore their intuition towards personal safety, and the words have stuck with me anytime I have felt even a little sorry about taking steps to ensure my safety (i.e. walking a long route to avoid coming too close to someone I thought was suspicious). A large part of the book deals with women's safety, and de Becker minces no words in making an argument for how feeble restraining orders are in protecting women . Ms. Saavedra's death is horrifying to be sure, and what makes it worse is that the entire sequence of events that led to it is (1) all too commonplace and (2) entirely predictable.
34
Yes. This book helped me break out of an emotionally and psychologically abusive relationship in my early twenties. Although my abuser never hit me, the relationship was going in that direction and I am absolutely convinced that he would have had I stayed. All the warning signs were there. It took a combination of help from friends and aquaintances, reaching out to an abuse hotline through my employer, unwavering family support, and this book for me to break free.
Some of De Becker's advice: never acknowledge your stalker. If he calls you 99 times and you answer the 100th time (even if it is to tell him to leave you alone), all it tells your stalker is that it takes 100 calls for him to get through, and he'll do it again. I apply his advice to this day, as this abuser CONTINUES to attempt to contact me through any means (lies and manipulation, other people, social media, and more traditional forms of communication). Every time I think enough time has passed that he won't bother me any more, he tries again. SIXTEEN years since the end of the relationship, every attempt he makes still shakes me to the core. I now live on another continent, have changed professions, and considerably limit my online presence (to the detriment of my career). I am living the life I dreamed of back then and am married to an amazing man. Not a day goes by that I don't think there but for the grace of God go I.
Some of De Becker's advice: never acknowledge your stalker. If he calls you 99 times and you answer the 100th time (even if it is to tell him to leave you alone), all it tells your stalker is that it takes 100 calls for him to get through, and he'll do it again. I apply his advice to this day, as this abuser CONTINUES to attempt to contact me through any means (lies and manipulation, other people, social media, and more traditional forms of communication). Every time I think enough time has passed that he won't bother me any more, he tries again. SIXTEEN years since the end of the relationship, every attempt he makes still shakes me to the core. I now live on another continent, have changed professions, and considerably limit my online presence (to the detriment of my career). I am living the life I dreamed of back then and am married to an amazing man. Not a day goes by that I don't think there but for the grace of God go I.
15
De Becker states in The Gift of Fear that abused women need to follow their instincts after getting professional advice, when deciding what course of action to take. It's usual for an abused person to leave the relationship, then shortly after the abuser is given unsupervised visitation of the kids. For temporary supervised visitation to happen, it must be proven that the children were abused (not just the mother). Since abuse usually recurs, it can also be directed at the kids, given that the stress of child care/spousal separation/job loss/ etc. can trigger the abuse - this time with no other adult to intervene. Therefore, if the woman decides to stay with her partner, according to de Becker, it may be in some cases the wisest decision, because that way she can at least have the chance to keep an eye on the kids. It falls to the strong, healthy parent to make the right choice for her children's protection. And the courts can't really provide protection to the children by issuing orders, whether visitation or protective orders. The courts and police mostly can't provide protection that is needed at the moment the violence occurs. Courts issue pieces of paper; police arrive too late, sometimes make an arrest, but when bail is posted, the violence may escalate over heightened anger at spending the night in jail. There is no easy answer here. Assistance from a domestic violence shelter is anonymous and can give needed professional support and/or a safe place to hide.
2
Temporary Restraining Orders proceedings are quasi criminal proceedings in California. A Superior Court Judge for the State of California who is notified by the Police, can issue a TRO on the spot for the person who alleges violence against his or her person by another after the Police investigate. It does not happen enough. Judges rotate the duty amoung judges of being on call 24 hours throughout the day to issue these orders, and these are judges who work in either civil and criminal courts.
It takes a great deal of convincing to persuade any set of Police officers that someone is an immediate threat, will cause harm, and must be restrained .
U.S. Police will use deadly force if a mother, wife, sister or neighbor calls the Police regarding domestic violence. In some municipalities, the Police respond to a DV call with high powered weapons aimed against both parties; alleged victim and alleged perptrator.
It seems that in NYC, the Police are constrained to act in the above-mentioned protocols.
Legally, I think that the victim should have been able to obtain a RO with conservatorship of her husband, who was clearly not of sound mind. But she could never have found the money and the legal representation to do so. And here is the result; trauma and murder, a family shattered.
It takes a great deal of convincing to persuade any set of Police officers that someone is an immediate threat, will cause harm, and must be restrained .
U.S. Police will use deadly force if a mother, wife, sister or neighbor calls the Police regarding domestic violence. In some municipalities, the Police respond to a DV call with high powered weapons aimed against both parties; alleged victim and alleged perptrator.
It seems that in NYC, the Police are constrained to act in the above-mentioned protocols.
Legally, I think that the victim should have been able to obtain a RO with conservatorship of her husband, who was clearly not of sound mind. But she could never have found the money and the legal representation to do so. And here is the result; trauma and murder, a family shattered.
6
Men and women like Uribe cannot be fixed. They can only be escaped. This is the reality. And, yes, this means that the parent and children being abused will have to run for their lives and sever all contact with family and friends.
Raising awareness among immigrants of shelters is the easy part; equipping shelters to launch victims into secret "witness protection" like lives miles away will be more difficult.
Getting victims to actually make the break and stick with the requirements will be nearly impossible. Maybe seeing crime scene photos would help them understand the realities of their circumstance. We accept that we must be prepared to lose almost everything when we fight cancer; the same must be accepted with domestic violence.
Raising awareness among immigrants of shelters is the easy part; equipping shelters to launch victims into secret "witness protection" like lives miles away will be more difficult.
Getting victims to actually make the break and stick with the requirements will be nearly impossible. Maybe seeing crime scene photos would help them understand the realities of their circumstance. We accept that we must be prepared to lose almost everything when we fight cancer; the same must be accepted with domestic violence.
11
This type of masculine behavior just makes me boil. Women are too busy working, either in or outside the home, managing household tasks, cooking, cleaning, minding the children. These men remind me of any common terrorist - too much time for their violent hobby and the desire to project an aura of manliness. They need to reject the notion of gender-specific tasks. After a long day running after the kids, doing the dishes and folding laundry, they'd be too tired murder anybody. Spousal abuse, often transgenerational and generally perpetrated by men on women (with exceptions), I blame on patriarchal hierarchy. We need to leave that kind of social organization in the past. We've evolved.
I'm sorry life sucks; should one live long enough, we all go through periods when things look bleak. That's no excuse for torturing or killing your spouse/partner. You don't own anybody. You want to check out, that's your business. You'd probably have my sympathy, then. Now all you have is my disdain.
(Reposted comment to correct ‘violet behavior’ to, obviously, violent behavior. While, I’m back on it, though, what about this guy telling the cops his duct-tape-wrapped cuts were self-inflicted and represented one for every year of his ‘relationship.’ I don’t think you need a degree to decode that – that’s nuts.)
I'm sorry life sucks; should one live long enough, we all go through periods when things look bleak. That's no excuse for torturing or killing your spouse/partner. You don't own anybody. You want to check out, that's your business. You'd probably have my sympathy, then. Now all you have is my disdain.
(Reposted comment to correct ‘violet behavior’ to, obviously, violent behavior. While, I’m back on it, though, what about this guy telling the cops his duct-tape-wrapped cuts were self-inflicted and represented one for every year of his ‘relationship.’ I don’t think you need a degree to decode that – that’s nuts.)
66
Awful. And yet too frequent for any of us to remain complacent when there are signs in our neighborhood of domestic troubles. This 'macho' abuse starts early, when we kids observe our parents; when there is nobody to educate us while young, to respect women, to find smart ways to defuse tension. And when the stress and despair of poverty 'cuts' into our self-worth, we slash out, usually on the weakest member, the spouse, demanding fair contribution to family life. And when booze and other women enter the picture, all bets for good behavior are off. This is a lesson for society to absorb, start early to teach children we ought to be valued equally and that there is no excuse whatsoever for abuse, physical and otherwise.
8
[[manfred marcus Bolivia
Awful. And yet too frequent for any of us to remain complacent when there are signs in our neighborhood of domestic troubles.]]
Over the years, I've called the cops many times when I heard domestic violence happening. Once I could hear a beating taking place. Once I heard the threat of imminent violence.
In the first case, the aggressor was taken to jail that night, as the cops could also hear sounds of hitting and yelling. (Eventually, the girlfriend moved out.) I don't know how the second case turned out, but I think having the police show up calmed the situation down. A third time I could see the cops approach the house in a very casual, slow way. The one cop got out of the car and waited for the other cop. They adjusted their hats and belts and walked…very…slowly…to the door.
So, the cops are a variable in all of this. Do the individual cops take DV seriously? Are they near the end of their shift and looking to avoid paperwork? The back end follow up of restraining orders is important, but do the cops get the abuser out of the house when emotions are running high? Were the cops in the neighborhood where this woman was killed familiar with this couple or were they busy writing traffic tickets?
Separately, I think alcoholism is enough of a reason to leave someone. In my experience, alcoholics and domestic abusers will both make endless excuses for their behavior, externalizing. You don't owe the alcoholic or the abuser anything.
Walk away.
Awful. And yet too frequent for any of us to remain complacent when there are signs in our neighborhood of domestic troubles.]]
Over the years, I've called the cops many times when I heard domestic violence happening. Once I could hear a beating taking place. Once I heard the threat of imminent violence.
In the first case, the aggressor was taken to jail that night, as the cops could also hear sounds of hitting and yelling. (Eventually, the girlfriend moved out.) I don't know how the second case turned out, but I think having the police show up calmed the situation down. A third time I could see the cops approach the house in a very casual, slow way. The one cop got out of the car and waited for the other cop. They adjusted their hats and belts and walked…very…slowly…to the door.
So, the cops are a variable in all of this. Do the individual cops take DV seriously? Are they near the end of their shift and looking to avoid paperwork? The back end follow up of restraining orders is important, but do the cops get the abuser out of the house when emotions are running high? Were the cops in the neighborhood where this woman was killed familiar with this couple or were they busy writing traffic tickets?
Separately, I think alcoholism is enough of a reason to leave someone. In my experience, alcoholics and domestic abusers will both make endless excuses for their behavior, externalizing. You don't owe the alcoholic or the abuser anything.
Walk away.
3
As a survivor of domestic violence I applaud the NYPD for their increased efforts to aid victims. The officer who was quoted in the article expressed regret that Nadia did not report that she was in danger. However, when you are being controlled by an abuser, you are caught in a terrible quandary: attempting to leave or even reporting the abuse will aggravate the violence since retaliation would be the abuser's next move--either immediately or sometime in the future; therefore, staying and silently coping feels like the safest option. Even when there are clear signs of danger, the victim uses subconscious survival strategies (freezing, denial, mental escape, hoping for improvement) to normalize their relationship from which they feel they cannot escape. We are not even aware that we are doing this and thus are not cognizant of the dangerous situation in which we live...until it is too late.
242
Yes,thank you for making this point. Another reason women are afraid to leave their abusers is because they are afraid for the safety of their children if they are unable to obtain full custody of them. Currently, domestic violence laws are written in most states so that there must be evidence that an abusive spouse has harmed his children before they can be denied custody- evidence of spousal abuse alone is deemed insufficient. This backwards provision denies children the right to safety and a victim the right to protect her children from danger.
4
This mirrors my experience. My ex-husband told me exactly what he would do if I ever called the police: take himself out and take me with him. The details would change, but I knew that calling for help would result in my death. As a result, I never called for help, but I did eventually leave.
Being away from the relationship is the only way to see the pattern of abuse outside of the "rules" you follow to keep the peace. It took time to realize that my ex would never hunt me down in my new life. He would never risk exposure to the rest of the world to do that.
We sought help. He had a therapist, but that therapist put the responsibility to stop abusive behavior on me and a system of "time outs" that only worked insomuch as he would honor them. He always called his therapist after a physical assault. That confession was cathartic for him, but just the beginning of the next cycle for me.
I don't know what the answer is for everyone, but I know what helped me to leave. I had a therapist who taught me about boundaries. I had a primary care physician who asked me a series of questions that helped me see that the abuse was affecting my health. I had friends who asked me about my marriage and offered safe space without judgment. I had a job that paid me a living wage and benefits. My heart breaks for Nadia Saavedra and her children. I'm so sorry she didn't get the happy path forward that she was working so hard for. She deserved the privileges that helped to set me free.
Being away from the relationship is the only way to see the pattern of abuse outside of the "rules" you follow to keep the peace. It took time to realize that my ex would never hunt me down in my new life. He would never risk exposure to the rest of the world to do that.
We sought help. He had a therapist, but that therapist put the responsibility to stop abusive behavior on me and a system of "time outs" that only worked insomuch as he would honor them. He always called his therapist after a physical assault. That confession was cathartic for him, but just the beginning of the next cycle for me.
I don't know what the answer is for everyone, but I know what helped me to leave. I had a therapist who taught me about boundaries. I had a primary care physician who asked me a series of questions that helped me see that the abuse was affecting my health. I had friends who asked me about my marriage and offered safe space without judgment. I had a job that paid me a living wage and benefits. My heart breaks for Nadia Saavedra and her children. I'm so sorry she didn't get the happy path forward that she was working so hard for. She deserved the privileges that helped to set me free.
3
There is an incredible amount of shame associated with being the victim of violence. Awareness of the national statistics on real outcomes of having guns in a home for women, how women are more at risk in homes with guns should be discussed more openly, because it might lead to an open discussion of reality. Because these gun-violence statistics in the home cross socioeconomic lines, it might help women overcome any shame that is based on socioeconomic concerns. However addressing the shame that the victims of domestic violence feels is not going far enough. It will not be enough because then you are reliant on protection orders, which really can't protect 24/7.
Rather than addressing the shame that victims of violence feel that inhibits them from reporting their husbands, the focus of therapy and intervention should be on the men, early on. I recently saw, on 60 Minutes, how German prisons offer psychotherapy to violent actors. I'll bet that it's more effective than anything going on in this country now. But we shouldn't wait until the deed is done, the men are in prison, the kids are orphaned (or murdered too), and the mother is dead.
The push by the CDC to study guns in the home is important. I believe that guns are used more often than knives when the man explodes and decides to murder his wife and then himself.
Rather than addressing the shame that victims of violence feel that inhibits them from reporting their husbands, the focus of therapy and intervention should be on the men, early on. I recently saw, on 60 Minutes, how German prisons offer psychotherapy to violent actors. I'll bet that it's more effective than anything going on in this country now. But we shouldn't wait until the deed is done, the men are in prison, the kids are orphaned (or murdered too), and the mother is dead.
The push by the CDC to study guns in the home is important. I believe that guns are used more often than knives when the man explodes and decides to murder his wife and then himself.
9
This is the story of too many women in America and around the world. Even if murder is not the end result the women are scarred for life, as are their children. Women around the world MUST step up, support each other and put an end to it forever. This is 2016 - not 816.
46
I agree with you njglea. However, being who I am I have to point out that when one is struggling to survive it's hard to extend support to others. We also need support from men. Many of our laws are written by men who have no idea what it feels like to be female and know, in a visceral way, that most men are stronger than you and can hurt you far more easily than you can hurt them. Many men (and women) who hear about women killing their abusers in self defense consider it full fledged murder because the woman planned it or did when the male was asleep. They don't understand what happens to a severely abused person. That misunderstanding was in evidence when it came to the Lisa Steinberg case. It's in evidence in almost every trial of a woman who kills her abuser.
No woman deserves to be abused by her significant other. No child deserves to be abused by his/her relatives. People should be able to live without the fear of being beaten, whipped, punched, sexually abused, or verbally abused by those they live with. Unfortunately that state of affairs is very hard to achieve. I remember how many times my parents, who did abuse me, told me I deserved it. They were the adults so I assumed that they were right. The problem is that this sort of abuse of children and women leads to more abuse because the children become vulnerable to it since they don't realize that they should not be beaten. The dysfunction continues with all of its unfortunate consequences for society.
No woman deserves to be abused by her significant other. No child deserves to be abused by his/her relatives. People should be able to live without the fear of being beaten, whipped, punched, sexually abused, or verbally abused by those they live with. Unfortunately that state of affairs is very hard to achieve. I remember how many times my parents, who did abuse me, told me I deserved it. They were the adults so I assumed that they were right. The problem is that this sort of abuse of children and women leads to more abuse because the children become vulnerable to it since they don't realize that they should not be beaten. The dysfunction continues with all of its unfortunate consequences for society.
10
Yes, hen3ry, I totally agree. Somehow women must stop blaming themselves for being raped and/or abused because it's not their fault, stop being embarrassed and talk to other women they know about it, stop trying to "get along" or "let it blow over" and get out of these dangerous situations. It's difficult and takes courage, especially if one doesn't have family or a support group to help, but it MUST be done and the trumpets must sound about this OUTRAGEOUSLY UNACCEPTABLE BEHAVIOR toward women - and men if they experience it. This article is a good step but just the start. A recent campaign that has been very effective is
#shoutoutrape. Time for #shoutoutabuse where people speak up about it. It's amazing what happens when people find out they are not alone, especially women.
#shoutoutrape. Time for #shoutoutabuse where people speak up about it. It's amazing what happens when people find out they are not alone, especially women.
5
In terms of prevention, changing the "hearts and minds" of men is maybe just as important as women banding together. There is a mindset which leads to this.
5
Heartbreaking but perhaps being poor is not the prereq., it just makes it worse. There were many high profile cases here in MA, and lord knows how many more in the poor neighborhood when code of silence is the norm.
20
Yes, I know a very intelligent solidly middle income woman who married for a second time a few years after her first husband, with whom she had a wonderful marriage, passed away. The second husband turned out to be an abuser who CHAINED HER TO THE BED when he was gone to work. She had no idea when they were dating what he was really like. Eventually when her friends and family stopped hearing from her they intervened and got her out of there. I'm happy to say her next and final relationship was a very loving one. One just never knows for sure but it is simply WRONG that men can get away with that kind of thing and not be incarcerated for many years. Many don't even get a slap on the wrist.
28
I remember how little the police in our village did for my mother when she took out an order of protection against my father. They were rude and condescending to her instead of being helpful. They treated her complaint like it was the most unimportant thing on their agenda. Domestic violence is a complex issue because it involves people who live with each other, may still love each other, and who may be in dire need of assistance from the police and professional counselors. Often there are children involved and they see and/or experience the violence. Just because it's a complex problem involving women doesn't mean it's beneath contempt or not worth paying attention to. If the police are there to protect everyone, protecting the victims of domestic violence is at least as important as solving a murder. In fact protecting or stopping domestic violence could stop a murder suicide.
I keep on saying it on various comments on different articles but a lot of what we are seeing is the result of people, mostly men, being unable to find jobs to support themselves and their families. American society lacks a strong social safety net for its citizens whether they are single, married, or have children. We assign people to the "undeserving" category too quickly and have no appreciation of how destructive it is to be unable to support oneself. As someone who has lived through (and is now), the nightmare of unemployment I can state that it is not a happy experience.
I keep on saying it on various comments on different articles but a lot of what we are seeing is the result of people, mostly men, being unable to find jobs to support themselves and their families. American society lacks a strong social safety net for its citizens whether they are single, married, or have children. We assign people to the "undeserving" category too quickly and have no appreciation of how destructive it is to be unable to support oneself. As someone who has lived through (and is now), the nightmare of unemployment I can state that it is not a happy experience.
178
Domestic violence happens in all strata of society. It does not require poverty or joblessness or being a male. My grandfather had a secure job all his life and that didn't stop him. Luckily, my uncle did not pick up the habit. Unfortunately, my mother (well educated and always employed) did. This can happen in any family.
13
While I agree with all of your posts about joblessness, it doesn't sound like Uribe could not find work; it sounds more like he quit working.
Having grown-up with someone chillingly similar to Uribe, I don't think it's despair or joblessness that drives these crimes.
Bottom line: the killers are not "mentally ill" as much as they are miswired--probably from birth. They are human cobras who are born that way and cannot be changed. They can only be escaped.
Having grown-up with someone chillingly similar to Uribe, I don't think it's despair or joblessness that drives these crimes.
Bottom line: the killers are not "mentally ill" as much as they are miswired--probably from birth. They are human cobras who are born that way and cannot be changed. They can only be escaped.
20
Uribe should never have married--period. He didn't want to work or care for kids or care about his wife--though he felt entitled to the rewards of doing so.
Offering services w/o regard to income, background, etc, as is done by many women's shelters is important - but women in immigrant communities may not know about them or be willing to take the step of separating, literally, from the community, at least for a time for their and their children's safety.
I wonder if, when the police did go out back in January, if someone had questioned Ms Saavedra insightfully, patiently, about the relationship, she might have spoken about the abuse. The someone could be a trained police officer, a social worker from a government or ngo agency - someone who is not going to take the simple route of not looking to make the case more complicated.
Women of all economic classes and cultural backgrounds often have a hard time separating from an abuser, for multiple reasons, and do sometimes show great reluctance to testify - or leave -- when they can't be made safe at home. They often end with realistic fear that the abuser will hurt them badly or kill them. It can take a lot of convincing to have them make clear statement to the police. When you do not have financial resources it more severely limits what you can do.
I don't know if any group has developed a way of using orders of protection effectively: someone as obsessed as Mr Uribe is going to be hard to contain. Clearly, leaving it to the woman who complains to figure out how to serve an OOP is putting her in harm's way.
I wonder if, when the police did go out back in January, if someone had questioned Ms Saavedra insightfully, patiently, about the relationship, she might have spoken about the abuse. The someone could be a trained police officer, a social worker from a government or ngo agency - someone who is not going to take the simple route of not looking to make the case more complicated.
Women of all economic classes and cultural backgrounds often have a hard time separating from an abuser, for multiple reasons, and do sometimes show great reluctance to testify - or leave -- when they can't be made safe at home. They often end with realistic fear that the abuser will hurt them badly or kill them. It can take a lot of convincing to have them make clear statement to the police. When you do not have financial resources it more severely limits what you can do.
I don't know if any group has developed a way of using orders of protection effectively: someone as obsessed as Mr Uribe is going to be hard to contain. Clearly, leaving it to the woman who complains to figure out how to serve an OOP is putting her in harm's way.
141
She would have had difficulty going to a shelter with a 16 year old boy in tow; most women's shelters won't accept older boys. And in any case, why should she be the one to hide? She didn't do anything wrong.
9
She DID separate from the abuser!
3
"...if someone had questioned Ms Saavedra insightfully, patiently, about the relationship ..." I share your concern. The man in this case was sick. But how far can you go with adults' personal affairs? On an individual level, it is too late to intervene -- People become abusive often due to deeper psychological/personality issues originating in childhood.
1
I wish the authors of articles like this would stop trying to avoid gender issues. It's not "people without jobs" who are more likely to kill their partners, it is MEN without jobs. I've read that something like 75-82% of intimate partner murders nationwide are committed by men against women. Some reports conflate an assault or battery, which can be hitting someone, with murder when they compile domestic abuse statistics. As bad as it is for partners to hit each other, the extreme is when someone gets killed, and that is most often a woman killed by a man with whom she has been intimate. This is tragic and it should not be whitewashed.
539
So let's not overlook the 25% where the woman kills the man. I was very nearly one of those, the conviction was "attempted murder" for financial gain. The obstacles to finding justice are different but challenging; a defense of spousal abuse is powerful and family members will take the middle ground "I don't know" position. Fortunately, these criminals do not think through their acts,and its easy to sort out the facts; spousal abuse leaves a trail of evidence. But, family members will resist facts in conflict with emotions.
1
Actually, I was surprised to learn that only "two-thirds of adult homicide victims from 2002 to 2013 were women." So, unless the other 1/3 of men being killed are in gay relationships, women comprise a significant percentage of those "people without jobs." The article does not clarify whether or not many of those men being killed might be in self defense against violent men or a product of obsessive jealousy. Finally, others here have rejected the class, education, immigration, and cultural markers, despite the fact that they are statistically supported. Although a deeper reading of the data needs to be done by this paper, in perhaps another feature, I thought this was an otherwise excellent article.
1
Theoretically I agree. But the 'gender' thing here is probably more complex than that. I've known gay men and lesbians who were battered by their partners. These are not all 'straight' relationships with a battering husband/boyfriend.
2
Religious and family values that compel a woman to stay in an abusive relationship are dead wrong.
337
During all the years in which 'family and marriage' organizations were spending so much monetary and political capital to keep gay couples from marrying, I went to each of them, and the religious leaders and told them to focus on socio/political action against domestic violence.
I entreated them to become heroes where it mattered most of all. And gave all the law enforcement and sociological stats and iron clad information to prove what an urgent issue it was for families.
They wouldn't even have the conversation. Wouldn't even engage the reality for what it was.
You're absolutely right about those religious and family values. Which embedded in all the speeches and assertions about the value of marriage.
There was tacit and overt approval of the belief that the sum of a female's worth, was her reproductive organs.
And not much else.
I entreated them to become heroes where it mattered most of all. And gave all the law enforcement and sociological stats and iron clad information to prove what an urgent issue it was for families.
They wouldn't even have the conversation. Wouldn't even engage the reality for what it was.
You're absolutely right about those religious and family values. Which embedded in all the speeches and assertions about the value of marriage.
There was tacit and overt approval of the belief that the sum of a female's worth, was her reproductive organs.
And not much else.
41
Agreed religion and "family" values are a death trap. A means by which men control women. The sooner the Central Government acts against these corrosive artifacts of primitive and barbaric societies, the better. No good can come of a system of totalist ideology and control like the church and so-called family dictate.
11
I think it is most likely that her stated reason for staying in the marriage was only a social nicety and that the real reason was that she feared his violence. Life within the marriage must have become unimaginably intolerable for her to have risked the greater violence she probably sensed he was capable of.
7
Sad, sad, sad ...
Until doctors, police, social workers and society at large unwrap the anachronistic paternalism and honor code that binds up the mental illness that lies beneath, we will continue to confront such awful, unremitting horror and sadness of these acts.
Wouldn't we at least do it for the children?
Until doctors, police, social workers and society at large unwrap the anachronistic paternalism and honor code that binds up the mental illness that lies beneath, we will continue to confront such awful, unremitting horror and sadness of these acts.
Wouldn't we at least do it for the children?
143
I think you are absolutely correct about "the anachronistic paternalism and honor code that binds up the mental illness that lies beneath, ... ." Women are more likely to seek mental health services. We tend to accept that men often will not seek the help of a counselor when they clearly are the ones who suffer from mental illness or inadequate ways of expressing themselves emotionally. We need a paradigm shift that allows men to not be stigmatized when asking for help. Men also must learn to recognize and identify feelings other than anger, and to understand there are alternative ways of acting if they are willing to learn them. Are abusers mandated to undergo counseling when they become involved with the criminal justice system on domestic violence charges? Maybe we need shelters for abusers who can be trained to find more acceptable ways of expressing their feelings.
2
Domestic abuse and murder is not a mental health issue. Most abusers have no diagnosis. It is a moral decision. Certain people (especially men) feel entitled to control their partners in this way and their attachment is so problematic that they would rather die and murder than lose the attachment. This matches no diagnosis in psychiatry....It's just REALLY BAD behavior.
I would love to know if the police conversations with the victim were conducted in her first language, Spanish.
I would love to know if the police conversations with the victim were conducted in her first language, Spanish.
6
Sadly, mandating abusers for counseling is often unhelpful. Counseling is effective when people take responsibility for their lives and genuinely commit to changing. Someone who believes he is entitled to his spouse's obedience, and entitled to "punish" her at will, is unlikely to be open to intervention. If he is smart, he will obey the letter of the mandate and show up for sessions on time in order to get the restraint lifted, but attitudinal change is harder to come by. As previous posters have pointed out, we need to effect cultural change that recognizes women as autonomous individuals, not property.
2
Even if a protection order had been served, what good does it do? How would a piece of paper keep a disturbed man from killing his estranged wife? In so many of these cases, we read that the woman did have a protection order, that she did report violations, but she’s killed anyway. Paper is no protection. This system needs to be looked at and changed somehow so that victims like Ms. Saavedra and her children can be afforded some meaningful, real protection.
378
Very true.
The so-called "order of protection" is really neither an "order" nor offers any protection. They only hold for the law-abiding, who may have been caught up in an isolated, emotionally-generated conflict. Otherwise, to think that the police...especially the police in the 40 Pct....are sitting there with nothing to do waiting for someone to call in a violation of one of these orders. is foolhardy and beyond the scope of reality.
But if something goes terribly wrong, the "order of protection" is an easy way to take the ultimate blame off the people involved and put the "blame" squarely, but unfairly, on the police and the courts.
The name of the game is "blame," with no interest in actually solving the problem.
The so-called "order of protection" is really neither an "order" nor offers any protection. They only hold for the law-abiding, who may have been caught up in an isolated, emotionally-generated conflict. Otherwise, to think that the police...especially the police in the 40 Pct....are sitting there with nothing to do waiting for someone to call in a violation of one of these orders. is foolhardy and beyond the scope of reality.
But if something goes terribly wrong, the "order of protection" is an easy way to take the ultimate blame off the people involved and put the "blame" squarely, but unfairly, on the police and the courts.
The name of the game is "blame," with no interest in actually solving the problem.
3
When my husband assualted me, the court issued a 2 yr restraining order. While I was busy filling out paperwork to get protection, he busied himself with cleaning out our bank accounts. I was left temporarily destitute, unable to even go buy a pack of pull-ups for our young children. I had no money for a retainer for a lawyer, and after reaching out to the non-profit legal group in the area, I learned that I earned too much to qualify for help. So, I started looking around our house for things to sell, and reaching out to a mutual friend for help in selling some electronic equipment. His idea of helping, was to "arrange" for my spouse and I to end up in a room together to "work it out". Somewhere between when the restraining order was issued, and when the "friend" decided to "intervene", I came home after work to find my spouse had been back inside our house - despite the restraining order. When I called the local WA police department, I was told that despite the clues he intentionally left behind so that I would know he had been there - unless there was a witness, there was nothing they could do. They wouldn't even go talk to him. By that time, all the neighbors had figured out what kind of person my husband was, and were not willing to get involved. So yes - a piece of paper did nothing helpful. In fact, it often does the opposite (escalates the violence).
104
Orders of protection aren't perfect, but they do help; men don't generally kill their partners the first time they come around to the apartment, or the second time. It's a repeating thing. If you can have them arrested for it, then they're less likely to come around, and if they do come around you have a way to really stop them.
3
But even financial semi-independence is impossible without an income and assets. Unless one inherits them, these must be earned and built up. But to earn and save requires a job, and a decent job requires skills.
Girls and women have to study to get the qualifications they need. For most, this means staying at school at least part time until the goal is reached. Getting married at fifteen, or even in one's later teens, is not a prescription for financial independence. Getting pregnant while one is still a teenager is no route to success.