If gayness is not chosen then the church's teachings on it are morally and logically incoherent. Therefore gayness is chosen, because the alternative is an agonizing reappraisal of church teachings and the ways those teachings were arrived at; the latter threatens the foundations of faith and doctrine, exposing much of it as the sort of self-serving noble lies Plato advocates in his Republic.
3
Thank goodness for progress. Bless you Pope Francis for you are appreciated by many. When my mother and grandmother were living they were devout Catholics and they derived so much comfort during hardships and joy from their religion but they were very progressive women and rolled with the times so to speak on social issues (except for abortion, of course). I know they are smiling from above and saying: "GO FRANCIS, GO"!
3
Too little, too late for so many people. When are we going to stop this superstitious longing for simple authoritarian answers?
6
Francis' Message Calls on Church to Be Inclusive and to Return the Wealth to the Poor From Whom It Was Stolen to Finance Food, Clothing, and Palaces for Church Officials.
1
Disclaimer first: I am an Atheist.
Having said that, I am elated to see a Pope stepping into the world. Too bad that social regression in the United States outpaces the social progress in the Catholic Church.
A lot more needs to be done but progress, even if slow and cautious, is still progress, unimaginable since John Paul II, especially after the doctrinaire Benedict XVI and his slash and burn theology.
"One small step for man one giant leap for mankind!"
And it's not just words on paper, "apostolic exhortations” or encyclicals or what-have-you, but actions.
His rebuff of the rigidly dogmatic Ted Cruz, the nativist Mr Trunp and the entitled Mrs. Clinton in favour of a Jew – a "secular" Jew, possibly an Atheist Jew, a "socialist" Jew – is a clear signal of the direction he wants his church and the world to follow. Inclusion is the key to his every message.
There's a valuable lesson there for every US politician in this election year.
Many will accuse the Pope of intervening in the election. I laud Francis for his courage, his passion, and his vision of a better, more livable world.
Born godless, raised Catholic, Jesuit Educated, reborn Atheist, I salute you, Francis!
Having said that, I am elated to see a Pope stepping into the world. Too bad that social regression in the United States outpaces the social progress in the Catholic Church.
A lot more needs to be done but progress, even if slow and cautious, is still progress, unimaginable since John Paul II, especially after the doctrinaire Benedict XVI and his slash and burn theology.
"One small step for man one giant leap for mankind!"
And it's not just words on paper, "apostolic exhortations” or encyclicals or what-have-you, but actions.
His rebuff of the rigidly dogmatic Ted Cruz, the nativist Mr Trunp and the entitled Mrs. Clinton in favour of a Jew – a "secular" Jew, possibly an Atheist Jew, a "socialist" Jew – is a clear signal of the direction he wants his church and the world to follow. Inclusion is the key to his every message.
There's a valuable lesson there for every US politician in this election year.
Many will accuse the Pope of intervening in the election. I laud Francis for his courage, his passion, and his vision of a better, more livable world.
Born godless, raised Catholic, Jesuit Educated, reborn Atheist, I salute you, Francis!
3
The pope was smart to start with divorced Catholics, who represent a large percentage of Catholics. He is also smart to promote the message of "Welcome." It's a message most Catholics will embrace wholeheartedly.
It's no surprise that he will also have to contend with the feeling of "muddying" that will accompany these changes. One of the greatest challenges to the Catholic Church today is the dilution of its message and secularization. There are conservatives in the Church working very hard to preserve what they believe is in peril. The pope cannot simply ignore them.
A giant step for the Catholic Church.
It's no surprise that he will also have to contend with the feeling of "muddying" that will accompany these changes. One of the greatest challenges to the Catholic Church today is the dilution of its message and secularization. There are conservatives in the Church working very hard to preserve what they believe is in peril. The pope cannot simply ignore them.
A giant step for the Catholic Church.
4
I think this is too little, too late. I made up my own mind, many years ago, on the issues of divorce, contraceptives, and abortion. And a whole lot of others did too. For the record, I'm a male (ex-) Catholic, who is divorced. I chose to leave, knowing well that billions of people believe these doctrines and would disagree with me.
Those who disagree with the Church's doctrines on these issues and others (homosexuality and women's rights come up often in these postings) have the simple choice to stay or go - but trying to force change to their way of thinking is arrogant and, dare we say, whiny. I don't notice many of them flocking to the mosques.
Those who disagree with the Church's doctrines on these issues and others (homosexuality and women's rights come up often in these postings) have the simple choice to stay or go - but trying to force change to their way of thinking is arrogant and, dare we say, whiny. I don't notice many of them flocking to the mosques.
1
This Pope is a "genuine human being." Don't see many of those anymore.
4
This pope is a little like Obama. All talk no action. He changed nothing and did nothing. Let us all applaud.
1
While the Pope Francis may be Catholic there is some considerable doubt that he and his faith are Christian.
While the Pope Francis may be a Latino/Hispanic as uniquely defined in America he is the all-white first generation Argentine born son Italian immigrants.
The most populous Catholic country on Earth, Brazil has more human being of black Sub-Saharan heritage as uniquely defined in America than any other country on Earth than Nigeria.
The most racially segregated time and day of the American week was and still is Sunday morning. I was born and raised in the first church formed by colored enslaved Africans in North America, the African Methodist Episcopal Church founded by Richard Allen and his followers in 1787 in Philadelphia, Pa. African Americans are the most Protestant racial ethnic group in America. With nearly 60% in black denominations and 20% in black church segments of white faiths. Only 5% of African Americans are Catholic.
See Forever USPS Black History Month stamp featuring Richard Allen.
While the Pope Francis may be a Latino/Hispanic as uniquely defined in America he is the all-white first generation Argentine born son Italian immigrants.
The most populous Catholic country on Earth, Brazil has more human being of black Sub-Saharan heritage as uniquely defined in America than any other country on Earth than Nigeria.
The most racially segregated time and day of the American week was and still is Sunday morning. I was born and raised in the first church formed by colored enslaved Africans in North America, the African Methodist Episcopal Church founded by Richard Allen and his followers in 1787 in Philadelphia, Pa. African Americans are the most Protestant racial ethnic group in America. With nearly 60% in black denominations and 20% in black church segments of white faiths. Only 5% of African Americans are Catholic.
See Forever USPS Black History Month stamp featuring Richard Allen.
1
After my adulterous wife divorced me, I continued to attend Mass and receive the sacraments. Upon my remarriage, a few years later, I went to confession where a kindly old pastor (now deceased, whose soul is no doubt in "heaven") called my remarriage a "good faith marriage." He encouraged me to be a full participant in the Church. All of this transpired under St. John Paull II and no thanks to theologians like Mr. Reno.
4
Pope Francis is saying lets not focus on the rules, lets focus on kindness. While this is a vast improvement over his prior two fascist predecessors its not enough. His approach is a recipe for disaster. Francis is using a double negative and such an approach cannot work. He says ignore bad rules; this is a double negative. A recipe for success is follow good rules!
1
Some people are very upset that the teachings of the Catholic Church have not been changed by Pope Francis. He has shown great compassion and understanding to those Catholics who are hurting. If you are not pleased with the Catholic Church, there are many Protestant denominations that have a more liberal approach to social issues. You might want to investigate these religions and become a member.
3
I am not a Catholic or even a believer but I love theology because it deals with the ultimate questions of human existence. So while I applaud Pope Francis' efforts, I hope his next encyclical will deal with really big issues: free will, compatibility of science and religion, whether all religions worship the same God. I'm getting tired of the obsessive focus on what is below the waist. Gay marriage is important but is not the sole preoccupation of even gay people (just ask Alan Turing). The Pope did address fundamental social issues: inequality and climate change. Next on the agenda: metaphysics rather than family law.
4
I am always amazed at the parsing that takes place in the Catholic clergy mind. I'm a 78 year old lesbian, partnered for 37 years and officially married for 16 of those. I was married and divorced from a man, and consider myself an atheist, having been driven there, I think, trying to make sense of the convolutions I was fed as a youngster in Catholic schools. Now comes the pope looking for ways to welcome back people who divorced and remarried in spite of the church's doctrine about marriage being indissoluble. But same sex marriage is still out because it does not lead to the propagation of the species?? Or something like that... So were I to wish, I could be welcomed back to mother church as a divorcee, but not as a married lesbian, despite creating a family and raising a child as the latter.
I long ago stopped being angry at this church. Now, the utter silliness of their pronouncements just makes me giggle. This pope does seem to be trying to punch his way out of a bubble, but he doesn't seem to absorb the data suggesting that the things he spends so much time on are completely irrelevant to most people, even those who identify with his church.
I long ago stopped being angry at this church. Now, the utter silliness of their pronouncements just makes me giggle. This pope does seem to be trying to punch his way out of a bubble, but he doesn't seem to absorb the data suggesting that the things he spends so much time on are completely irrelevant to most people, even those who identify with his church.
5
Im no different. I humble enough to admit I suffer from hpyocrisy and choose the things I like and discard the things I don't like. Very few share my honesty. I struggle in my walk with Christ. I realize we can't change everyone's thinking on any issue. All I can do is serve witness and offer personal testimony. Point a person to Christ and let Him do the rest for He can only change the hearts of men. That is where the tolerance and compassion comes in. Im not advocating to partake in the same behaviors of others just that we all have our unique challenges and burdens in daily life. When we set ourselves up as moral authorities over other poeple lives we fall to so the same traps of tyrants and rulers. Where we become more concerned about holding power over others than grace and salvation. Some of my fellow 'Christians' are more concerned about being in the 'right' and imposing that certainity upon others which creates dvision among ourselves and others. We begin to craft laws out of fear that others don't think like us or adhere to our version of morality.
5
The Pope's thoughtful words on the church's stance on homosexual marriage deserves deep reflection. The union between 2 men or two woman can never be sanctioned by the church notwithstanding that 5 people on a Court decreed it so erasing a millennia of natural law with the swift of a pen. The Pope should be commended for his courage and openness in delivering a gentle rebuke to those who dissent. He is open to forgiveness and redemption but he could never sanction such a practice under the laws of the church and indeed, of God.
4
Too little too late. When I was divorced from my first wife many years ago, through no choice of my own, I was shut out of most of the sacraments of the Catholic Church, Even though I still wanted to be a part the Church I felt like an outsider. I have since grown away from the Catholic Church and really don't miss it. The rigid church doctrine has moved from the original teachings of Christ and has lost touch with their parishioners and now they wonder why people are leaving the Church. Again, too little too late.
1
Divorce does not shut anyone from the sacraments of the Church. Remarriage without annulment does.
2
It amazes me that anyone being deemed unfit for inclusion into the RCC stills cares what this pope or any of its hierarchy says. I boil this obsession by these groups and their members to be embraced by the RCC, or any religious institution into this. You all want the Pope (insert religious leader title) to tell your family, your mothers, fathers, etc, who are not happy with your sexual identity to now be happy with it. "If the pope would just say X, then my family and whomever else would like me and include me in their reindeer games."
To which I ask, If your family, etc, cant embrace You for you, their own blood, without some bronze-age, faith-based belief system patriarch instructing them to - they don't deserve your constant fight for their affections! Move on!
The people who give the pope and the RCC or any religious leader of a true religious institution their real power are the ones who still clamor for their affections and inclusions. Its not the ones in the pews, its the ones they exclude, and deem unfit who want to be included that give them so much power over the ignorant and lemming-like drones who toss coins in their collection plates every week.
The pope has no sway over what his or any god might decide about You! He's not the judge and jury for this god down here on earth! The God still has free-will to do whatever he pleases, he's not bound by the Bible, he didn't "write" it to make rules to bind himself. He didnt in fact ever sanction the thing!
To which I ask, If your family, etc, cant embrace You for you, their own blood, without some bronze-age, faith-based belief system patriarch instructing them to - they don't deserve your constant fight for their affections! Move on!
The people who give the pope and the RCC or any religious leader of a true religious institution their real power are the ones who still clamor for their affections and inclusions. Its not the ones in the pews, its the ones they exclude, and deem unfit who want to be included that give them so much power over the ignorant and lemming-like drones who toss coins in their collection plates every week.
The pope has no sway over what his or any god might decide about You! He's not the judge and jury for this god down here on earth! The God still has free-will to do whatever he pleases, he's not bound by the Bible, he didn't "write" it to make rules to bind himself. He didnt in fact ever sanction the thing!
1
I'm not a fan of the Catholic Church, but this was a decent evolutionary step. Next up must be a public outcry for reforms in other strict, perhaps more misogynistic faiths that oppress women and try to control their bodies right down to requiring they be fully covered, and which have zero tolerance for gays.
1
It appears that many so-called "Christians" are drawn to their churches only because it affords them the chance to belong to something exclusive. The opportunity to hobnob with others that are as righteous and moral as themselves. Perhaps I totally misunderstood the teachings of Christ, but I never interpreted him delivering that message. Christianity's greatest message is acceptance and love for all. If you want your membership closed off to those that you believe are flawed and in someway beneath you, you miss the greatest point of the faith you claim to profess. Pope Francis seems to be trying to move the church more towards the actual teachings of Christ, how odd that he is meeting such resistance from its own members.
7
What Catholics refuse to understand is that these questions on family are up to Jesus Christ, not a mere man called the "Pope". Catholics have a relationship with a church, NOT with Jesus Christ. Its sad to see millions following a morally and spiritually bankrupt church, and if you point this fact out to them, they will scorn and hate you. These questions of family were settled and solved 2000+ years ago by Jesus Christ, so why is the Pope coming across the the authority on such questions. On the cross as he died, Jesus Christ muttered "It is Finished", meaning His work, His Policies have been defined and solidified. The act of a mere man, the Pope coming across as though he can superseded Christ's teachings only proves that Satan is behind the Mother Church...remember what Christ said "Satan comes as an angel of light, to deceive...".
1
Your total lack of understanding of history, religion and the human experience are apparent. As is your anti-Catholic bigotry. If I were so inclined I could make your same arguments about Democrats and Progressives.
3
Obviously the uninformed musings of a pseudo-Christian who is clueless of the real message of the Bible! This pope is a true man of Christ. As a Protestant I applaud all my true Christian brothers including the Pope who recognize and live the biblical message of love.
3
Paul said it best in Galatians 5:14 (King James Version):
"For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself."
The pope continues to divide people into various categories and sub-groups while overlooking The Central Message of Jesus: love of all.
"For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself."
The pope continues to divide people into various categories and sub-groups while overlooking The Central Message of Jesus: love of all.
7
What about the great commandment? Or the very words of Jesus? Sorry, but there is a little more to the faith then one passage from Paul.
2
Pope Francis should be applauded for getting back to Catholic doctrine and out of politics. Now it's time to stop the sexual abuse, such as the major event in Johnstown PA. Let's also talk about abortion and act to avoid it. In 2016 with all of the birth control mechanisms within reach abortion need not ever be an option. Thirty nine percent of those babies who are never born are beautiful black babies who were deprived of life.
1
Religion is for self direction and purification. Religious leaders should not intrude into personal lives of people but should help how to achieve self perfection and behave in relation to surroundings as well as path to God and truth.
How can a Church change to meet the demands of its customers and yet not raise questions about their other moral decisions. As the interpreter of Gods wishes towards humanity, how can they change their views, without pulling into question all previous historical judgments? Female priests, priests getting married or ultimately same sex, married, female priests? Where does it all end? Once you begin to put holes in the dike doesn't the dam just become irrelevant?
3
When you come down to it, the whole bit is totally and always was irrelevant. The dike never existed.
2
I really like Pope Francis, he tries. However, it does not make sense for an organization which promotes family life (let just use traditional families as an example) to require their highest leaders to abstain from this blessing. The implication of celibacy, clearly, is that living and loving within a family is a lower state of grace. And forget women, who are not even allowed to come to the table. This message plays over and over. The treatment of women, as an example, is at odds with the message of inclusion and love for humanity found in the Bible. Its OK to wash Church vestments, but that is pretty much it. For such a male centered organization, I have never heard a priest encourage male responsibility. This would imply equal respect for women. I can't imagine hearing about the joys and challenges of nontraditional family life or sexual orientation coming from the pulpit even after this doctrine is read. The reason is that family life is not a spectator sport, and priests, who do not participate, cannot ever understand.
6
This man is out of touch with reality. When has man been without stress? Go to any museum and look at the paintings of the great masters of Europe and you will see any number of paintings of peasants toiling and moiling in the fields, women with scarves over their heads, bent over with scythes in their hands or men pushing plows over a seared landscape and in the nineteenth century, men and women within gray factories, or against smokestacks with smoke spiraling into the sky. Those paintings talk of the fate of man through the ages, especially common men, such as peasants and factory workers, paid little, struggling to feed their children and often forced to introduce their children to the rigors of child labor. To say that the modern family has special stresses is to diminish the pain and the sorrows of being human and being poor through the centuries. I was born a Hindu and I am an atheist. It is incomprehensible to me, why the Catholic religion is given so much digital ink in the press. I don't really care what this or any other pope says. These men are doctrinaires, who practice the deceit of control over large masses subjugated to their dicta. Man doesn't need permission or vindication from a group of unmarried men to love or marry as he pleases or to pray or not to pray or choose the partner with whom he would live or not live when his relationship is fractured. There is something so arrogant in the release of these documents.
6
Is someone forcing you to read this stuff or post about it? It seems you and many others have another, deeper axe to grind. Keep this in mind, if we are all free to go our own way, without direction or teaching many will go in a way that hurts others, enslaves others and does what we define, thanks to religion, as evil.
2
Money talks, even in the Catholic church.
I have a very well off cousin who is in his third marriage, both ex's living, all three marriages in the church.
How anyone still takes this deeply flawed institution seriously is beyond me.
I have a very well off cousin who is in his third marriage, both ex's living, all three marriages in the church.
How anyone still takes this deeply flawed institution seriously is beyond me.
6
You mean this human institution made up of sinners? It reminds me of the Democrat Party that claims to be for the people while reaching for our wallets.
2
The Roman Catholic Church seems to share a problem with political leaders. Doctrine is imposed on people by those who lack understanding of the lives of those people .
3
Blah blah blah. Why is he relevant? I will live a life that makes me happy. His opinion is not desired or required.
7
While he may not be relevant to you he is relevant to hundreds of millions of Catholics, over a billion if you count them all. So, though you consider "his opinion...not desired or required," a billion of your fellow humans think otherwise.
5
Millions of people probably don't believe in evolution. Millions of people believe in eternal damnation in hell as taught by the Catholic church.
They apparently choose to remain ignorant, which is their god given right.
They apparently choose to remain ignorant, which is their god given right.
Congratulations to Pope Frances for finally bringing the church into the 21st century. He has become the new Martin Luther. Now he shold also look at the serious issues like global warming and poverty and undernourishment in parts of the world and conclude that the earth's resources are limited (bounded) and population cannot continue to grow. He needs to approve birth control as a responsible social method for the good of humanity.
1
The big question is, "What would Jesus do?" He wouldn't run around persecuting people for any reason at all. Finally we have a pope that acts the same way he would. I love this pope.
6
Remember that disagreement doesn't equal hatred and that acceptance doesn't mean you agree with everything and allow anything.
I can accept an individual for who they are and still disagree with what they believe and what they do. In fact I think that concept is at the core of Christian love---it is very easy to love those you agree with and much more difficult to love those who you sincerely believe do wrong.
I don't at all believe that the world is some "politically correct" place where everybody agrees with everybody else in all circumstances and everything is sweetness and light and there is no conflict or dissent. That is simply not human. And Christ was God but Christ was also very human and we must always remember that and strive to be Christlike while accepting and dealing with our own humanity. And part of our humanity is realizing that we are not perfect and that there are going to be rules and nobody gets whatever they want whenever they want it. That is not freedom but license where there are no rules and anything goes.
I can accept an individual for who they are and still disagree with what they believe and what they do. In fact I think that concept is at the core of Christian love---it is very easy to love those you agree with and much more difficult to love those who you sincerely believe do wrong.
I don't at all believe that the world is some "politically correct" place where everybody agrees with everybody else in all circumstances and everything is sweetness and light and there is no conflict or dissent. That is simply not human. And Christ was God but Christ was also very human and we must always remember that and strive to be Christlike while accepting and dealing with our own humanity. And part of our humanity is realizing that we are not perfect and that there are going to be rules and nobody gets whatever they want whenever they want it. That is not freedom but license where there are no rules and anything goes.
5
Most people mistakenly believe ("What would Jesus do?") that Jesus would have accepted anything. Jesus loved and, more importantly, forgave. People neglect to consider the demands placed on us.
2
God does meet us where we are but once we meet Him and come to fully believe and trust in Him then we will want to follow His laws. This joy found in communion with God will change people, it is not forced it happens willingly. Jesus said to the adulteress, there is no one here to condem you, neither will I, go and sin no more. He did not say hey, do whatever feels good at the time. In order of people to be introduced to God we need to welcome them into God's kingdom. Inclusiveness is derived from God"s will, not from mans will. Once people are introduced to God's joy the Holy Spirti will take over from there.
2
Could similar calls follow from other religious heads to their faithful?
Sorry, folks, a little cynicism is required and amply deserved here. The "stress of modern families"? From a Jesuit!
Francis, can I remind you that your Church and the sect to which it belongs are responsible for much of that stress? By attempting to control and direct human sexual behaviour, as if it were any of your business, you have ingrained bigotry and repression into modern society. It is very common to find, in biographies and chronicles of Mediaeval and Renaissance life, accounts of incest in which younger daughters were forced to replace their mothers and sisters-in-law to care for their widowed fathers or brothers. All justified by some interpretation of Scripture. How many priests knowingly have performed weddings of unwilling brides?
Human beings should be legally free to form whatever sort of family association they desire. Emphasis on "desire".
None of your God blessed business.
Francis, can I remind you that your Church and the sect to which it belongs are responsible for much of that stress? By attempting to control and direct human sexual behaviour, as if it were any of your business, you have ingrained bigotry and repression into modern society. It is very common to find, in biographies and chronicles of Mediaeval and Renaissance life, accounts of incest in which younger daughters were forced to replace their mothers and sisters-in-law to care for their widowed fathers or brothers. All justified by some interpretation of Scripture. How many priests knowingly have performed weddings of unwilling brides?
Human beings should be legally free to form whatever sort of family association they desire. Emphasis on "desire".
None of your God blessed business.
5
Pope Francis's latest document "Amoris Laetitia", Latin for "The Joy of Love", which 'calls for priests to welcome single parents,gay people and unmarried straight couples who are living together, is as revolutionary just like his last document called,"Laudato Si'", shows very clearly that the current "Papa" to a Billion and half Catholics, is a visionary.
But listening to all the other Christian ( mainly Republican) politicians in this country and the world, a non-believer was of the opinion that all the Christians are same, that is :extremists, otherwise how come the evangelicals and devotees of other denominations could support two of the ANTICHRISTS called Trump and Cruz who were and still preaching some kind of doctrines on their campaign trails which were far removed from the two doctrines of Pope Francis.
Although Pope Francis closed the door on 'same-sex marriage, but judging his revolutionary doctrines, one cannot rule out the possibility that some day he'll revisit the subject again and most probably allow the gay people to marry like it is in most of the states in U.S.A.
So all kudos to our latest 'revolutionary Pope Francis.
But listening to all the other Christian ( mainly Republican) politicians in this country and the world, a non-believer was of the opinion that all the Christians are same, that is :extremists, otherwise how come the evangelicals and devotees of other denominations could support two of the ANTICHRISTS called Trump and Cruz who were and still preaching some kind of doctrines on their campaign trails which were far removed from the two doctrines of Pope Francis.
Although Pope Francis closed the door on 'same-sex marriage, but judging his revolutionary doctrines, one cannot rule out the possibility that some day he'll revisit the subject again and most probably allow the gay people to marry like it is in most of the states in U.S.A.
So all kudos to our latest 'revolutionary Pope Francis.
2
I am glad the church is finally moderating. I was raised Catholic but no longer practicing. While I applaud movement toward compassion it's to little to late in my humbled opinion.
My Catholic experience involves a church covering up abuse of its most vulnerable members our children and at that time they had forgiveness for the perpetrators. My Catholic experience involves a church that does not allow women a full partnership or spiritual authority. My Catholic experience would deny women the right to birth control and a woman's right to choose- there are many women in South America at risk for zika that needs to be on birth control but are not due to church teachings. My Catholic experience will not recognize same sex marriage.
For these and many more I am no longer a practicing Catholic but I am excited to see the church extend the same forgivness they offered to priests that abused children to divorced women now.
Maybe Pope Francis sees that the future of the church is endangered without further changes.
I could no longer stand the hipocracy so I had to leave but I hope the church continues to move in a positive direction toward more inclusion instead of less.
My Catholic experience involves a church covering up abuse of its most vulnerable members our children and at that time they had forgiveness for the perpetrators. My Catholic experience involves a church that does not allow women a full partnership or spiritual authority. My Catholic experience would deny women the right to birth control and a woman's right to choose- there are many women in South America at risk for zika that needs to be on birth control but are not due to church teachings. My Catholic experience will not recognize same sex marriage.
For these and many more I am no longer a practicing Catholic but I am excited to see the church extend the same forgivness they offered to priests that abused children to divorced women now.
Maybe Pope Francis sees that the future of the church is endangered without further changes.
I could no longer stand the hipocracy so I had to leave but I hope the church continues to move in a positive direction toward more inclusion instead of less.
3
Tis only window dressing. It would take the cardinals of Europe & USA to make substantive change. They're not going to, having been chosen by the last 2 popes. As for 3rd world cardinals, they are the most conservative. Being so got them advancement & privilege, a ticket out of the 3rd world country. These men, all, have their position to protect.
4
The Catholic Church has had a long history of blasphemy within its walls, and this document tries to mitigate the sting from the revelations that in some jurisdictions as many as 6 percent of active priests engage in sexual predation of minors. The truth is that the Catholic Church attracts sexual predators to the priesthood. Also, the secrecy with which the hierarchy of the church at the Bishop and Cardinal level has dealt with sexual predators and all those who have broken their vows of celibacy continues to be a shameful condemnation of the church’s attempt to maintain an image of righteousness and authority over Catholics everywhere. This document is the pope’s attempt to blunt the coming storm of rage towards the “authoritative cult of blasphemy and heresy” at the Bishop and Cardinal level.
The only salvation for the Catholic Church would be for that institution to require the following changes to its heretical doctrine. They must allow women to the priesthood and require all priests to be heterosexual men and women who marry in order to re-establish a trust between the majority of normal families under their care and the priesthood. The reason for this is that only a married priest could possibly understand, and advise families empathetically and wisely having the same experiential pressures and understanding of married life.
The only salvation for the Catholic Church would be for that institution to require the following changes to its heretical doctrine. They must allow women to the priesthood and require all priests to be heterosexual men and women who marry in order to re-establish a trust between the majority of normal families under their care and the priesthood. The reason for this is that only a married priest could possibly understand, and advise families empathetically and wisely having the same experiential pressures and understanding of married life.
2
A group of unmarried men have taken upon themselves to deciding what unions are, and what unions are not "on the same level", in gods eyes. They are fiercely protecting the precious sanctity of marriage by giving their consent to divorce. These men represent a religion based on a man who was born out of wedlock, never married and active encourage people to leave the wives and children.
Mark 10-29/30 “Truly I tell you,” Jesus replied, “no one who has left home or brothers or sisters or mother or father or children or fields for me and the gospel 30 will fail to receive a hundred times as much in this present age: homes, brothers, sisters, mothers, children and fields"
Mark 10-29/30 “Truly I tell you,” Jesus replied, “no one who has left home or brothers or sisters or mother or father or children or fields for me and the gospel 30 will fail to receive a hundred times as much in this present age: homes, brothers, sisters, mothers, children and fields"
1
Thinking that hundreds of millions of humans (Catholics) listen to anything that comes out of the Vatican is disheartening. Again we note that one of our brilliant Cosmic thinkers, Stephen Hawking, has put it all simply that "Religions are fairy tales for adults". People living out these fairy tales have caused much of the world's pain, such as the Inquisitions and today's ISIS madness. Will we ever be free of these fairy tales? I wouldn't bet on it.
4
That Stephen Hawking said it does not make it so. His thoughts on physics carry great weight, but he doesn't have the same authority on matters of religion.
Religion had also done a great amount of good, but no one seems to ever want to talk about that.
Religion had also done a great amount of good, but no one seems to ever want to talk about that.
3
Who cares what the church thinks about anything? It lost its relevance a long time ago, not that it ever had any true relevance. Its proclamations on morality are so weakened by its own behavior that it should not even be included in the conversation. When will humanity fall out of love with false comfort? Religion is a monument to our ignorance.
2
My God bless his Holiness. In this mad world of ours, he is our anchor of hope and love. may his message of compassion be a guide to us all
4
The Pope's sentiments are inclusive and good hearted. When will the doctrine itself change? That's the ultimate determinant, the doctrine, not the words from the Pope.
2
I was raised a Catholic but stop believing in the doctrines when I was in college, almost fifty years ago. As a young person what troubled me most was the doctrines were not the word of God but rules written by the Catholic hierarchy. Why should doctrines written over centuries by a church hierarchy take precedence over the word of God? This was never discussed in my catechism classes.
2
I don't know why we're so caught up with this former bar-bouncer Pope who called women theologians in his own church "the strawberries on the cake" and who while in Philadelphia met secretly with a misguided law-breaking county clerk who refused to issue legal marriage licenses—to congratulate her.
1
AS POPE BENEDICT WAS A GERMAN . . .
...Pope Francis is a mensch ... as he is aware that the members of the Universal Church are mortal and he must minister to all.
If all humans were perfect ... we wouldn't need the Catholic Church or any other ministry.
...Pope Francis is a mensch ... as he is aware that the members of the Universal Church are mortal and he must minister to all.
If all humans were perfect ... we wouldn't need the Catholic Church or any other ministry.
1
It always amazes me how people, cleric and politician alike, who swear God is the great omniscient one beyond human comprehension, nonetheless claim to know the mind and will of God.
2
A whole lot of nothing. Liberal priests will do what they've been doing and conservatives won't do anything differently. Gays get crumbs: their relationships will never be equal to straight ones but you shouldn't beat them up. Wow, that's groundbreaking.
16
About gays the Pope famously said "Who am I to judge?" And everyone lapped it up, which was the point. Because, of course, he does judge, and quite negatively, yet wants everyone to see him as a thoughtful, nonjudgemental man. Back in May 2015, the Vatican declared the gay marriage referendum in Ireland a "Defeat for humanity". Those people, they are sinners. An honest answer to his question "Who am I to judge?" would not be polite. Now the Pope calls for the church to be "more welcoming and less judgmental", but it must remain firmly judgmental. Bigotry with a smile, or a face of concern.
Priests now are to welcome "single parents, gay people, and unmarried straight couples who are living together". Gay people who are living together, married or not? "Who am I to judge?" How come so many people fall for this duplicity?
Divorcees should seek the counsel of a priest who could "help them to examine their conscience". Ironic. Worse. The Church hierarchy have signally not examined their consciences regarding involvement in pedophilia organized crime.
The Catholic Church is like any corporation trying to protect its brand and engage in all that advertising avails, including duplicity. So nothing really disturbing there. What is bothersome is how willing people are to engage in self-delusion. People gravitate to those who present themselves as authority figures, particularly moral authority figures. And so we're stuck with the Church, succor to false selves.
Priests now are to welcome "single parents, gay people, and unmarried straight couples who are living together". Gay people who are living together, married or not? "Who am I to judge?" How come so many people fall for this duplicity?
Divorcees should seek the counsel of a priest who could "help them to examine their conscience". Ironic. Worse. The Church hierarchy have signally not examined their consciences regarding involvement in pedophilia organized crime.
The Catholic Church is like any corporation trying to protect its brand and engage in all that advertising avails, including duplicity. So nothing really disturbing there. What is bothersome is how willing people are to engage in self-delusion. People gravitate to those who present themselves as authority figures, particularly moral authority figures. And so we're stuck with the Church, succor to false selves.
11
Divorced already eat communion with no issues. This is a safe way out for the pope. Disappointing. Gay marriage, women priests and married priests--that's where the real change begins. Nice try pope.
Pope with your white robe and gold candlesticks.
How about a synod that orders a less kingly dress code. Dress more like regular people and stop this white robe, red robe, big hat, gold belt, archaic nonsense. We know you are human, just like everyone else.
Pope with your white robe and gold candlesticks.
How about a synod that orders a less kingly dress code. Dress more like regular people and stop this white robe, red robe, big hat, gold belt, archaic nonsense. We know you are human, just like everyone else.
4
My father was saddened for decades because the Catholic Church excommunicated him. We were told this was because my mother was not Catholic, and we were not baptized or brought up as members the Catholic Church. His ex status had a profoundly negative effect on him. It was like being told to divorce himself from any possible recognition of the spiritual part of his nature.
2
OK- not all. How about many? J-
1
You know, it's really amazing to me that nobody has thought to question the implication of two simple concepts.
Under Catholic doctrine:
1. Matrimony is the only sacrament that is administered by lay people (the getting-marrieds) to each other. A priest does not "marry" you. A priest oversees you "marrying" each other. The sacrament is administered by wife to husband, and vice versa.
2. To annul a marriage nevertheless requires paperwork from the Vatican and approval from a priestly tribunal.
Hello? If you and I marry each other--which is Catholic doctrine--you and I are the ONLY, repeat ONLY, people in the position to determine whether that was or was not "a true marriage" (Catholic doctrine for grounds for annulment).
So logic would dictate that the only human beings that can annul a marriage were the ones who participated in it--if Catholic doctrine can be believed.
Therefore the entire concept of "a church annulment" is, ahem, null and void. From the get-go.
Thanks, Francis (I guess?) for finally acknowledging this....
Under Catholic doctrine:
1. Matrimony is the only sacrament that is administered by lay people (the getting-marrieds) to each other. A priest does not "marry" you. A priest oversees you "marrying" each other. The sacrament is administered by wife to husband, and vice versa.
2. To annul a marriage nevertheless requires paperwork from the Vatican and approval from a priestly tribunal.
Hello? If you and I marry each other--which is Catholic doctrine--you and I are the ONLY, repeat ONLY, people in the position to determine whether that was or was not "a true marriage" (Catholic doctrine for grounds for annulment).
So logic would dictate that the only human beings that can annul a marriage were the ones who participated in it--if Catholic doctrine can be believed.
Therefore the entire concept of "a church annulment" is, ahem, null and void. From the get-go.
Thanks, Francis (I guess?) for finally acknowledging this....
2
My mom, a Catholic, married my divorced dad in 1957. The bishop of Albany NY came to their house and told her she could never again be a part of her church and never again receive communion. She was devastated. I wish she had lived long enough to know this loving pope.
17
I was raised catholic but am now an atheist. To me, Francis is a shining light. He so obviously cares about the people he ministers to, like JP II, and has not fallen prey to the jaded varnish that so many of us contract over the years. He is someone who sees the world fresh each day, and that is no small feat.
It's terrible that he did not make room for GLBT members at the table in the church, or recognize a woman's right to choose. But, also, it's unrealistic in the extreme to expect a glacier to sprint ahead a few hundred yards. He is the voice for an institution that, for many of its members, is important precisely because it DOESN'T change. Why would you expect him to trample on what so many depend on?
For me, I just admire and appreciate his generous humanity. A rare gem in a world of granite.
It's terrible that he did not make room for GLBT members at the table in the church, or recognize a woman's right to choose. But, also, it's unrealistic in the extreme to expect a glacier to sprint ahead a few hundred yards. He is the voice for an institution that, for many of its members, is important precisely because it DOESN'T change. Why would you expect him to trample on what so many depend on?
For me, I just admire and appreciate his generous humanity. A rare gem in a world of granite.
23
Where do I send my check?
3
Keep your money and do your own good with it. The very last thing the Catholic church needs is more money.
3
In New York Times article there are 3 paragraphs about LGBT issues but NO address of roles for women in the church. The role of the family is addressed but nothing for women/nuns who help run the church.
6
That's because the church views women as second class citizens. We're brood mares and housekeepers and nothing more. At one point the catholic church whether women had souls. Nothing has changed as far as women go.
3
False Pope Francis “No one can be condemned forever, because that is not the logic of the Gospel!” - I thought that was the idea of a eternal Hell.
This Pope moves the church towards a more loving stance, but ultimately short of doctrinal changes, the bottom line will stay the same. The church had in Benedict a Pope who was a doctrinal purist, who was content with the idea of the church getting smaller if it would also be populated with the purer remnant. Francis tries to move in the opposite direction in allowing more latitude, more room for 'love' on the local level, but love is always limited by doctrine in any papal scenario.
With large more conservative populations in the Southern Hemisphere, it is likely that any Pope who tried to move the church to the left in terms of social doctrine would risk a schism of historic proportion. Liberals who hope for such changes will have to chose between staying in a church which continually disappoints their hopes or leaving. No Pope is going to risk such a schism.
With large more conservative populations in the Southern Hemisphere, it is likely that any Pope who tried to move the church to the left in terms of social doctrine would risk a schism of historic proportion. Liberals who hope for such changes will have to chose between staying in a church which continually disappoints their hopes or leaving. No Pope is going to risk such a schism.
2
I had hoped with all the problems with the Zika virus, especially in countries that are primarily Catholic, the Pope would have relented on the issue of birth control.
9
Nope. Women must be brood mares, that's church doctrine.
2
So many responses confirm that Protestantism still hasn't purged its hatred of Popery & Romanism of the Middle Ages. On the other hand, Roman Catholicism still perceives itself above other denominations, e.g., "The Church." As a secularist who receives communion as a RC, I find warmth, belonging and purpose within my parish in unity with Pope Francis and the bishops. But any belief founded on something that you're required to believe, yet there is absolutely no historical evidence that the founders, all of whom believed the sun revolved around earth, and the earth was flat, well, that's a bridge too far. Still prof's to Pope Francis for at least distancing his reign from the ultra conservative Curia. But, religious systems that promulgate rules of behavior that are required to be accepted, I consider absurd. However, I'll be in my pew Sunday evening singing, standing, kneeling, praying and enjoying every minute I'm there.
1
Church Inc is rapidly losing market share and will do whatever to retain and grow market share. As more and more darker people become part of the Church, the lighter ones are giving up religion all together. Fyi, most of the world is non-christian.
6
Glad to hear the global leader of the fairy tale organization has decided to delegate decisions about discrimination down to the local fairy tale leaders. Then all of the deluded half wits who believe in fairy tales into their adulthood can feel better about being included in the fairy tale club.
15
Congratulations for the idea to change to society. Keep all the faithful together by not judging our faults. Help everyone, toward a peaceful existence. Now let women have the title of priests . It is way past due.
5
Requiring a divorced Catholic to get permission from a priest to receive Holy Communion exposes them to the whims of priests. This invites inconsistency, bias, and prejudice. Rather than saying "welcome" it suggests that a faithful divorcee is a member of a lower caste. We had no right to expect gay marriage but leaving this discretion is disheartening. I hope divorcees and gays keep coming to Mass and keep taking Communion. Many fellow Catholics know what "welcome" truly means.
3
It is so demoralizing that the lives of people living in 2016 can be so dismissed and denigrated as they are by church doctrines. The Christian religion (and perhaps all world religions) base doctrines on books written thousands of years ago. These books are written second or third hand by people whose best intentions have to be an act of faith as well.
The world is very different now but religious leaders have fallen behind acknowledging and adapting to these changes. They would like us to continue with doctrines that reflect society from two thousand years ago.
The world is very different now but religious leaders have fallen behind acknowledging and adapting to these changes. They would like us to continue with doctrines that reflect society from two thousand years ago.
8
I'm a lapsed Roman Catholic, and divorced. I was raised in Catholic schools through my BA degree at a Catholic university. I can't imaging that the Church will sanction same-sex marriage in the next 25 years. It may never sanction it. I think people's expectations were much too high and unrealistic because this Pope is broad-minded and lives in the "real" world. Having said that, I do agree with Fr. Martin. This IS a quietly revolutionary document considering the firm stances the Church has taken over the years regarding divorced couples. But, the Church now needs to continue to take steps forward. This is just a beginning. Local pastors need to stop encouraging wives to remain with abusive husbands! This has been a problem for years. If the Church wants healthy families, the pastors must become more involved and the Church must provide better counseling venues. Just "sayin' it" doesn't make it so. But I'm now, for the first time in 50 years, optimistic.
5
My cousin died after being married in Catholic church, divorcing civilly and marrying again. He died and no one would give him Extreme Unction (love these terms) because of his "divorce" and living outside of the Church (are you following this?) I assume he is currently in Hell. If he would have died now, he would have received extreme unction and gone to heaven. Get it!
9
As Geo. Carlin asked, "what about all those people in hell on meat wrap?".
While I do not agree with everything the Roman Catholic Church teaches in terms of its doctrines, rules, etc., Pope Francis has a Gospel centered mission to re-center the Roman Catholic Churches mission on what is important: mercy and grace. I can appreciate that he will never be fully embraced by theological conservatives or liberals. However, as the Holy Father for the Roman Catholic Church he has showed what being a Pastor is all about: Standing in the places of contention and conflict to show Jesus to the world. It is extremely evident that the Church as a whole Roman Catholic and non-Roman Catholic have lost a key part of its mission and that is to extend mercy and grace while holding fast to truth.
2
"The battle lines were basically drawn over what it means for the church to be pastoral and merciful in its approach to people who are not living in accord with the Christian ideal of the intact, nuclear family."
I'm puzzled that twice in this article there is a conflation, apparently by the author, of a "Christian ideal" with Pope Francis's articulation of what I assume is actually a "Catholic ideal." (The other is a reference to the "Christian ideal" of marriage.) My own Christian denomination has a very different ideal of what constitutes both a nuclear family and an ideal marriage, and we are no less Christain than the Pope.
I'm puzzled that twice in this article there is a conflation, apparently by the author, of a "Christian ideal" with Pope Francis's articulation of what I assume is actually a "Catholic ideal." (The other is a reference to the "Christian ideal" of marriage.) My own Christian denomination has a very different ideal of what constitutes both a nuclear family and an ideal marriage, and we are no less Christain than the Pope.
1
I think that people have increasingly fallen into the misconception that others must first show their conformity to our own expectations and beliefs before we can extend love, community, acceptance, or even interest in what they have to say.
The church has certainly been guilty of this error in some ways, and I think most members of the public, and all political factions, have as well. In fact, it is well documented that the public increasingly gets information only from news sources that match their preexisting biases, presenting a serious weakness in all public discourse.
It is a major barrier to all human progress. Pope Francis is taking a step to reduce his Church's role in this problem, and I will strive to do the same in my own life.
The church has certainly been guilty of this error in some ways, and I think most members of the public, and all political factions, have as well. In fact, it is well documented that the public increasingly gets information only from news sources that match their preexisting biases, presenting a serious weakness in all public discourse.
It is a major barrier to all human progress. Pope Francis is taking a step to reduce his Church's role in this problem, and I will strive to do the same in my own life.
3
Well, I believe Francis is catching up with history. I'm a Catholic and a Protestant. When alive in the 90's my favorite priest gave us communion even though my husband, a Methodist minister, had never received the holy sacrament. I am also my husband's third wife celebrating our thirtieth wedding anniversary today! So, I thank the church for moving forward, amen!
1
It's hard to imagine why, in terms of the current world situation we now live in, something as prehistoric and dogmatic as religions still even exists anymore. Isn't there a better App, or something, available that can suffice for all this pretentious pomp and theatrical "joy of love" nonsense. Technology, baby!
2
The Pope is now performing the same task as secular political leaders have this past few centuries, bringing people along to a new way of thinking and reasoning. He is trying to move the Catholic Church into the modern age of social equality. The Pope is informing it's hierarchy that pre-judging people based on doctrine is the wrong approach. Pre-judgement must be discarded, for it is actually found to be contrary to the most fundamental principles of Catholicism. People are right to be impatient, saying that Francis has not gone far enough. People were also right to be impatient with our politicians. They have taken nearly two hundred years to move the laws of secular society forward, finally providing the level of equality that exists today. Pockets of resistance to change still flourish within the church and society at large. The insular nature of the church makes progress happen much more slowly than in democratic societies. Francis knows this. The Pope likely feels he is bringing Catholic thinking along about as fast as is possible. It will be up to his successors to evaluate conditions and complete the herculean task he has begun. Evolving a two thousand year old institution into our modern era of understanding won't happen fast enough for many. Each Catholic will need to make their own decision as to how to deal with that reality. As for those still clinging to the past, your narrow way of thinking is finally well on its way to the dustbin of history. We all hope.
3
Until the Catholic Church quits opposing basic health care rights for 50% of the world by denying contraception - I'll remain unimpressed.
23
I hope, before his term ends, Poe Francis would declare all forms of birth control measures, including the "morning after pill" is acceptable for Catholics, while forbidding abortions. Birth control measures, like antibiotics & surgeries and other medical treatments are also gift from God, through man's ingenuity. There is no sin in undertaking birth control measures.
5
Maybe we can also encourage self control.
2
I have to believe that Francis has opened the door to divorced Catholics to receive communion and that this was his main purpose in this document.
Under this language Bishops in more liberal countries and cities could authorize their priests to allow divorced Catholics to receive communion on a case by case basis, after personal meetings with them.
Conversely bishops in more conservative locales will be under no obligation to do the same. This is a very difficult balancing act in a church that prides itself on one set of inviolable rules.
As part of this balancing act Francis had to rule out any approach to recognizing the marriages of gay Catholics. In a way their interests were sacrificed to the need to liberalize in an area where the Roman Catholic Church is ever farther behind the times.
Under this language Bishops in more liberal countries and cities could authorize their priests to allow divorced Catholics to receive communion on a case by case basis, after personal meetings with them.
Conversely bishops in more conservative locales will be under no obligation to do the same. This is a very difficult balancing act in a church that prides itself on one set of inviolable rules.
As part of this balancing act Francis had to rule out any approach to recognizing the marriages of gay Catholics. In a way their interests were sacrificed to the need to liberalize in an area where the Roman Catholic Church is ever farther behind the times.
1
So bishops "could" authorize on a "case by case basis" communion. Brilliant. So now we have Communion Police standing at the church doors. These are the same Bishops and Priests who "could" have molested your children and covered it up on a "case by case basis". Still, if you really believe you need to take communion, go to another church were they don't know you.
1
What are “God’s laws” after all but the fabrications of human beings? In the context of the times in which these laws were written they may have made sense. But times change as does our understanding.
The story is entertaining but at no time did God write these laws on stone. Every law that Christianity has finds its footing in Jewish law formulated in the two components of the Talmud, the Mishnah, the written rabbinic, oral Torah, and the Gemara, which amounts to a more detailed exploration of the Mishnah, both of which expand and expound on the Torah, what Christians refer to as the Old Testament. Christ would have been intimately familiar with these works.
Everything that is considered Church doctrine is extrapolated from these laws, scripture, and, unfortunately in many cases, from the “understandings” of theologians.
These are man’s laws, not God’s.
Catholicism can reformulate them just as it once “formulated” them. Laws are not ends in themselves but means to ends. Francis and his bishops would have done well to listen to one of Francis’s order:
http://www.frksj.org/homily_THE_LAW_WAS_MADE_FOR_MAN.htm
Roman Catholicism has again failed in its responsibility to exercise the authority it is charged with in Matthew 16:19 to minister to children, women, and men. “"I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven."
What else is new?
The story is entertaining but at no time did God write these laws on stone. Every law that Christianity has finds its footing in Jewish law formulated in the two components of the Talmud, the Mishnah, the written rabbinic, oral Torah, and the Gemara, which amounts to a more detailed exploration of the Mishnah, both of which expand and expound on the Torah, what Christians refer to as the Old Testament. Christ would have been intimately familiar with these works.
Everything that is considered Church doctrine is extrapolated from these laws, scripture, and, unfortunately in many cases, from the “understandings” of theologians.
These are man’s laws, not God’s.
Catholicism can reformulate them just as it once “formulated” them. Laws are not ends in themselves but means to ends. Francis and his bishops would have done well to listen to one of Francis’s order:
http://www.frksj.org/homily_THE_LAW_WAS_MADE_FOR_MAN.htm
Roman Catholicism has again failed in its responsibility to exercise the authority it is charged with in Matthew 16:19 to minister to children, women, and men. “"I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven."
What else is new?
6
Single parents? I understand divorced and widowed. But does single mean unwed mothers? Giving them tacit approval for is really beyond belief. These selfish women who have kids should be not rewarded for their bad behavior. Kids need two parents.
4
I wonder whether you would support these women having access to contraception.
2
Those kids do have two parents. The males take no responsibility, that's the bad behavior. How about making men step up the plate and be responsible for the life they helped create? Talk about selfish!
2
Yay for Francis!
That will undoubtedly upset a lot of the old boys who are still living in the Middle Ages.
Doesn't make me want to re-join the flock but I hope it is helpful to other Catholics who have suffered from the Church's moral oppression for years & years & years.
That will undoubtedly upset a lot of the old boys who are still living in the Middle Ages.
Doesn't make me want to re-join the flock but I hope it is helpful to other Catholics who have suffered from the Church's moral oppression for years & years & years.
2
He may be Pope of the Catholic Church but he is a human being first and foremost.
A Pope of the People and for the People who suffer unjustly. Mercy to all who wish it.
2
I do not care what the pope his church or his bishops think about same sex marriages or homosexuality I hope they protect the children the women and the disenfranchised and hope that they spend the money they spend on dresses and all sort of paraphernalia on helping the needy enough with conservative bishops hypocrisy .ask cardinal Nolan about his rich friends
5
The reactions here are baffling to me. Does the Pope say that homosexuality is of the devil? Does he say his church should be more welcoming towards divorcees? Does he say condoms are possessed, or birth control a sin? Does he say we should all be dancing in the parlor with lampshades on our heads? I don't really care.
So let's be honest: if you do care, even if you care because you think the Catholic church is backwards or unscriptural or unloving, then you're unwittingly validating the political, social, and cultural importance of traditional Catholic teachings. You're free to walk away from this church or any church. Getting angry about Catholic doctrine really only emphasizes how important the church is to you. And this, in turn, actually suggests to me that a very large portion of Catholic teaching is compelling indeed - otherwise, why would people who disagree with the church on fundamental issues of life, love, and family continue to try to find a way to remain members of a community that has not historically welcomed them?
I've never been particularly interested in Catholicism, but these reactions from people who proclaim that they are done with the church and that they had hoped for so much more actually make me - an outsider - curious about just why so many people find this particular absurd religion quite so compelling.
So let's be honest: if you do care, even if you care because you think the Catholic church is backwards or unscriptural or unloving, then you're unwittingly validating the political, social, and cultural importance of traditional Catholic teachings. You're free to walk away from this church or any church. Getting angry about Catholic doctrine really only emphasizes how important the church is to you. And this, in turn, actually suggests to me that a very large portion of Catholic teaching is compelling indeed - otherwise, why would people who disagree with the church on fundamental issues of life, love, and family continue to try to find a way to remain members of a community that has not historically welcomed them?
I've never been particularly interested in Catholicism, but these reactions from people who proclaim that they are done with the church and that they had hoped for so much more actually make me - an outsider - curious about just why so many people find this particular absurd religion quite so compelling.
11
I love the Catholic Church and I find your thoughtless condemnations unwarranted. Should all the good that the Church does be casted aside so dismissively? Should more than 2,000 years moral thought be ridiculed by arrogant atheists who have a comic book knowledge about Catholic theology? The lessons of the Church are "pearls before swine" and quite frankly, your loss not mine.
3
It is a good idea to keep in mind that the labyrinthine theology and rules of Catholicism are all just made up. And made up by men. They are maybe not the best rules to apply in order to achieve the best quality of life for ourselves and others.
6
Now the latest comments are beginning to get really nasty and mean spirited. I thought the NYT readers were beginning to show some civility but I guess I was wrong. No matter what Pope Francis does or says it will be met with criticisms and disdain from many. They will never be satisfied with the Church no matter what doctrinal changes are made or altered. The Church could make every single tenet to the liberals liking and it still would not be enough. They would still find fault and condemn Pope Francis. The Church is really trying hard to be loving and accessible to all, but some people do not appreciate their efforts. They deserve much praise and adoration for their wonderful works. I think the 1.2 billion members would agree.
8
Sorry the church is not loving or open to all. And please spare me ur smug condescending attitude
16
Telling (e.g.) a married gay couple that their marriage is wrong, and that their relationship is somehow less real or valuable than a straight couple's, is not being "loving" or "accessible".
And that's still the church's official position, regardless of any window dressing here. I wouldn't feel particularly welcomed under those circumstances.
And that's still the church's official position, regardless of any window dressing here. I wouldn't feel particularly welcomed under those circumstances.
6
Jrv,
The Catholic Church welcomes all people no matter who they are. No one is ever turned away.
The Catholic Church welcomes all people no matter who they are. No one is ever turned away.
1
I'm sorry. I'm not trying to be insulting, but Catholicism (much like Islam) seems to me to be a giant cult whose appeal I don't get. It seems to require its believers to submit to the authority of others, give up rational thought, and accede to a hierarchy in which (rich, mostly white) men rule. I can't see that God (if he or she exists) would possibly care who can and can't take communion, what gender a priest is, or sanction the ostracism of people on the basis of a fundamental part of their identity, their sexuality. Surely were Christ alive today, he would be concerned with the plight of the poor, the ever accelerating vandalism of the earth, and the seemingly endless brutality of war we humans inflict upon each other.
31
Floramac,
I can assure you that the Catholic Church is not a cult and I think its followers would agree with me. We are not brain washed into believing its tenets and follow them willingly and joyfully. We benefit greatly in the teachings and practices of the Church which guide our behavior in a positive way. The tenets bring long lasting happiness which our modern world cannot provide. I assume you are not of the Catholic faith and do not know about its inner workings. There are many brilliant scholars and theologians within the Catholic Church who are very knowledgable who could explain the Church and its beliefs in more detail than the average lay person. It is a rich and beautiful faith that is worth practicing. I am a life long Catholic and will remain so as it has guided me in my every day life and decisions.
I can assure you that the Catholic Church is not a cult and I think its followers would agree with me. We are not brain washed into believing its tenets and follow them willingly and joyfully. We benefit greatly in the teachings and practices of the Church which guide our behavior in a positive way. The tenets bring long lasting happiness which our modern world cannot provide. I assume you are not of the Catholic faith and do not know about its inner workings. There are many brilliant scholars and theologians within the Catholic Church who are very knowledgable who could explain the Church and its beliefs in more detail than the average lay person. It is a rich and beautiful faith that is worth practicing. I am a life long Catholic and will remain so as it has guided me in my every day life and decisions.
3
The Catholic Church is not a cult and is a wonderful religion practiced by over one billion people around the world. I suppose because so many people follow this faith you incorrectly saw it this way. The points you make about the Church are untrue and you must not know any practicing Catholics. The Church is one of love, forgiveness and truth. You can always read about the Church on the internet and there are also some very good books on the subject.
Another excellent source is EWTN, the Catholic cable channel, viewed by many millions around the world. After reading these negative comments on this board and getting a case of the blues, I tune into EWTN for fabulous and accurate reporting. The programs are rewarding and presented in an intelligent and positive way. You will learn a lot and I certainly have. They are uplifting and give me hope.
Another excellent source is EWTN, the Catholic cable channel, viewed by many millions around the world. After reading these negative comments on this board and getting a case of the blues, I tune into EWTN for fabulous and accurate reporting. The programs are rewarding and presented in an intelligent and positive way. You will learn a lot and I certainly have. They are uplifting and give me hope.
2
I do wonder how one's belief in a religion manages to make it through the day when each day a religious leader tries to either contort their mystical doctrines to fit the 21st century or contort the 21st century to fit their mystical doctrines.
4
When there is a female pope I will believe the Church has reached modernity. Until then it is nothing more than a male-centric relic of a sorry past.
9
Yes, a female Pope, one day. But married, I don't think so.
So putting a female up there in Rome would do it for you? Not me...I'm waiting until they take the superstition out and can make reasoned sense out of the universe.
2
Gee, that's a really long wait.
Rome was not built in one day. And the Catholic Church won't be rebuilt with one document either. That Pope Francis has been willing to be so courageous and seek to ultimately overturn hundreds of years of dogma is downright inspiring. The future will come sooner than we think. Bravo Pope Francis for taking the first real step!
6
overturn hundreds of years of dogma? I don't think so, for truth cannot be overturned, it is eternal.
3
I am waiting for the Pope to announce acceptance of birth control as not a sin but an approved "marital practice" This will then eliminate thestupid arguments by the republicans to attack Affordable Cae Act's provision of Birthcontrol as a legitimate practic.
8
I am very encouraged.
4
If I'm not mistaken Jesus (supositively Catholic Church "founder) was all about love your neighbor as yourself. That's a pretty good philosophy that seems sometimes profound in view of life and the plight of our human existence.Unfortunately I think part of of the Catholic Church and also some other religious organizations got sidetracked. In. "Fiddler on the Roof" it tells us that religion (tradition) helps us to keep our balance.
How true, so it looks like Pope Francis is trying to balance with the kindness and mercy that they said Jesus was about and judgement of others.
I hope Francis makes progress.
How true, so it looks like Pope Francis is trying to balance with the kindness and mercy that they said Jesus was about and judgement of others.
I hope Francis makes progress.
4
Poor pope Francis trying to be a politician must be hard I m sure he would be more open if weren't for that Cadre of closeted gay cardinals that live off the church
6
The photograph of Pope Francis is absolutely gorgeous.
6
Reading many (most?) of the comments here, I began to wonder. Whom do most people hate more, ISIS or the Catholic Church?
7
I certainly don't "hate" the Catholic church, as you suggest, but I do resent its outsized influence in US politics and civic life. I'm not a Catholic and haven't agreed to live under their rules, yet they still want to change laws to restrict my access to reproductive health care, my right to marry, and so on.
There's no rational reason why a single religious group should have such an enormous influence on (for instance) health care law and policy, in such a diverse country.
For example, in many counties, Catholic hospitals are the *only* health care provider and don't offer the full array of women's health care services-- even in an emergency. And that's just the tip of the iceberg.
There's no rational reason why a single religious group should have such an enormous influence on (for instance) health care law and policy, in such a diverse country.
For example, in many counties, Catholic hospitals are the *only* health care provider and don't offer the full array of women's health care services-- even in an emergency. And that's just the tip of the iceberg.
4
They both cause such enormous harm, it really is hard to say.
3
Yep...if it walks like a duck, etc. Reads like hatred to a rational person.
3
My favorite Pope. Papa Francis comes through again.
7
Alluding to the diversity and complexity of a global church, Francis effectively pushes decision making downward to bishops and priests....
Just as our Federal Government should push many of these same decisions down to the States to decide......for the same reasons of diversity and complexity.
Just as our Federal Government should push many of these same decisions down to the States to decide......for the same reasons of diversity and complexity.
1
"States rights," huh?
Southerners sure loved that rallying cry during slavery, Jim Crow, their "massive resistance" against the Civil Right Movement and more recently against gay marriage.
Southerners sure loved that rallying cry during slavery, Jim Crow, their "massive resistance" against the Civil Right Movement and more recently against gay marriage.
1
How deeply, deeply disappointing. We welcome his kindness, but the Pope's lack of courage here is troubling. He has missed a historic opportunity and adopted a politician's stance. We thought certainly he would open the doors to communion for Catholics who are divorced. Communion is an invitation to draw close to God; it is not a prize for the perfect. BTW, can Catholic priests who have sexually abused a child receive communion?
19
Can a pastor or minister, of a Protestant church receive communion for being unfaithful to their wife, sexually abusing members of the congregation, robbing from the weekly collection, in one case, I know of, murder their wife and escape prosecution? I have witness all of these over the years.
While the Catholic Church has been slowed to modernize, and some priests committed ghastly sins, both them and Protestant Churches have ministers who are not perfect.
As fro today's announcement; it is a step in the right direction. Being denied communion because of a marriage that failed, which in the US is over 50%, is very cruel.
Pope Francis has done more to reform the Catholic Church since Pope John the XXIII. He has put the teachings and humbleness of Christ to the forefront. And he has been cleaning house at the Vatican. And the fact that he is making both liberals and conservative Catholic squirm is actually a good thing. It sends the message; the status quo is over.
While the Catholic Church has been slowed to modernize, and some priests committed ghastly sins, both them and Protestant Churches have ministers who are not perfect.
As fro today's announcement; it is a step in the right direction. Being denied communion because of a marriage that failed, which in the US is over 50%, is very cruel.
Pope Francis has done more to reform the Catholic Church since Pope John the XXIII. He has put the teachings and humbleness of Christ to the forefront. And he has been cleaning house at the Vatican. And the fact that he is making both liberals and conservative Catholic squirm is actually a good thing. It sends the message; the status quo is over.
5
The UCC believes in open communion (anyone may partake), which allows that everyone has sin, and that the act of taking communion may in itself have redemptive powers.
1
the the pope has has done well. he has moved toward modernizing the church without creating an unmanageable reaction from the right. shortly he will do it again.
3
Organized religions are remarkably resistant to change. Even though a core message may be spiritual liberation from legalistic dogma, there are still many people who feel insecure trying to steer by an internal moral compass. They want rules and judge all others by how well they keep to the rules. Religious living becomes dogmatic slavery with little regard to evolving values.
Denial of any kind of evolution cements fixed attitudes that would leave us with slavery, degradation of women (still happening) and practices that are so obviously evil as to force people to wonder how any religion ever came to regard itself as a path to enlightenment and righteous living.
I do feel that Pope Francis is trying to return the church toward recognition of the actual teachings of Christ as more important than the mountains of legalistic “interpretation” of obscure passages written by people living in ages we should all be thankful to have evolved beyond.
I put my faith in evolution (God’s plan?) as natural growth to greater sensitivity to the well-being of all rather than trying to enforce a return to a rigid “ideal” past state that is the way we are supposed to be in order to reap the promised “reward.”
Denial of any kind of evolution cements fixed attitudes that would leave us with slavery, degradation of women (still happening) and practices that are so obviously evil as to force people to wonder how any religion ever came to regard itself as a path to enlightenment and righteous living.
I do feel that Pope Francis is trying to return the church toward recognition of the actual teachings of Christ as more important than the mountains of legalistic “interpretation” of obscure passages written by people living in ages we should all be thankful to have evolved beyond.
I put my faith in evolution (God’s plan?) as natural growth to greater sensitivity to the well-being of all rather than trying to enforce a return to a rigid “ideal” past state that is the way we are supposed to be in order to reap the promised “reward.”
8
It's wonderful that Pope Francis has softened the tone of the Catholic Church on the subject of divorce. The next teaching the world urgently needs him to update is the teaching on birth control. One of the best ways to save the planet from the worst climate change would be for the Catholic Church to advocate _for_ family planning and limiting the size of families, instead of against it. Pope Francis is very progressive. I am hopeful that he will soon address the urgent issue of overpopulation on our exquisite little blue and green planet. There is no Planet B. We urgently need to lighten the human footprint in order to keep natural ecosystems viable and the climate habitable on this one.
5
Divorce will persist as an endless problem for Catholics. The marriage of a family member "fell apart" in recent years. The couple had two children. What about an annulment? Well, can this even be taken seriously? Catholic marriages fail in the same manner as do most other American marriages, with marriages that were originally valid. Truly, have you ever heard or read the fictions and gross exaggerations attached to annulment procedures? Sinful.
5
Frank is a nice guy or so its would seem. "Unmarried With No Children" instructs the married and unmarried with kids that it is Ok to be so. Marriage he says is a really stressful job. Wow! And this is front page news.
The question is why the infallible church got it wrong since Jesus groupied with the wrong crowd and his all male and some slightly married (and maybe with kids) baker's dozen appointed followers. It seems the new leaders got hung up on circumcision as the main issue of their day?
And the infallible in matters of religion papas without momas and kids (with a few exceptions) called it strike three and your out when it came to the rights of many humans down the years. This might sound off a bit but was this not the same infallible lineage that got it wrong on the Jews and god killing and invented waterboarding and fire burnings (at of all thingss the cross like stakes) for the Inquisition and invasion of the Holy Land where the Church refused to be based there (so far from earthly power in Rome).
Frank seems like a nice enough guy. But let's be real about the role of organized religious edifices: when they come to knowing how to act they all have questionable histories led by men.
So a suggestion: allow openly gay priests to guide their flocks and to make it equal let's see a real role for all women in the Church especially lesbian and transgender people. Did Jesus ever say anything about gays, lesbians and transgender people created by God? Think not!
The question is why the infallible church got it wrong since Jesus groupied with the wrong crowd and his all male and some slightly married (and maybe with kids) baker's dozen appointed followers. It seems the new leaders got hung up on circumcision as the main issue of their day?
And the infallible in matters of religion papas without momas and kids (with a few exceptions) called it strike three and your out when it came to the rights of many humans down the years. This might sound off a bit but was this not the same infallible lineage that got it wrong on the Jews and god killing and invented waterboarding and fire burnings (at of all thingss the cross like stakes) for the Inquisition and invasion of the Holy Land where the Church refused to be based there (so far from earthly power in Rome).
Frank seems like a nice enough guy. But let's be real about the role of organized religious edifices: when they come to knowing how to act they all have questionable histories led by men.
So a suggestion: allow openly gay priests to guide their flocks and to make it equal let's see a real role for all women in the Church especially lesbian and transgender people. Did Jesus ever say anything about gays, lesbians and transgender people created by God? Think not!
3
Jesus did indeed talk about gays, using the coded language of the day. In Matthew 19 he talks about people who were made eunuchs and people who were born eunuchs. We know from other sources that "born eunuchs" included people that today we would call gay. Jesus doesn't condemn them. The claim that Jesus never talked about gays, and the claim that the destruction of S & G was to do with homosexuality, seem to be widespread even though they are both false.
1
Christians don't need the Pope/Catholic Church to tell them what to do. Our heart tells us what to do. We know right from wrong. We really don't need the church to believe in a God and do the right thing.
11
I agree wholeheartedly
4
Gee, I can receive communion again. Thanks Pope.
2
Why do these cult leaders still matter and deserve any attention at all? I was raised Roman Catholic, but after the psychological and emotional abuse I survived from several priests and nuns and being sexually molested by a church employed swim coach, I've had enough. As good a person as Francis seems to be he's still the mouthpiece for an organization that uses unprovable myths and superstitious nonsense, systematic degradation of women and non-believers and psychological and emotional manipulation to manipulate it's followers, at the end of the day he's just another link in the chain that has enslaved the human psyche for far too long.
18
I am not sure the Pope could win a republican primary in the south. He's too liberal.
4
Pope Francis urges Catholics to adopt attitudes most Americans adopted decades ago. Yawn.
5
It is an interesting and complex world we humans have cobbled together in the absence of direct verifiable knowledge of our origins and pre-history. So it will come as no surprise that some will be most receptive and others most repelled that a Pope, a seemingly enlightened Pope, holds such weight with these pronouncements and thoughts.
Tell you what, this old planet (and yes, it is old) under our aegis has been a rough and terrible place for so many living creatures; plants animals humans and all, that I, for one, will take the small gains and forward thinking almost anywhere they should appear.
The Pope is a good man. I think few rational people would dispute that.
He may not be what you want him to be or what you do not want him to be. Regardless, he is a good man.
Carry on, Francis.
Tell you what, this old planet (and yes, it is old) under our aegis has been a rough and terrible place for so many living creatures; plants animals humans and all, that I, for one, will take the small gains and forward thinking almost anywhere they should appear.
The Pope is a good man. I think few rational people would dispute that.
He may not be what you want him to be or what you do not want him to be. Regardless, he is a good man.
Carry on, Francis.
6
Thank you for putting the Jesus back into religion. This Pope obviously gets that it is time for religious societies to stop tearing the world apart.
1
Is it worth pursuing the thoughts of the "Pope's Man" in NYC? Not even a statement from Cardinal Dolan?
Dolan? who cares about Mr congeniality he is such a joke. Only shows up for high mass and showcase events
1
He's too busy committing the sin of gluttony.
The church is losing membership, and money, so quickly it can't sustain its operations anymore. Locally, they are selling properties, closing churches, and shutting down empty seminaries that appeal to almost nobody anymore. The church is desperate for new membership or it will die. Suddenly the divorced, the remarried, the gay don't look so bad, eh? This is a transparent effort at self-preservation by passing it off as a moral stance, as "greater inclusion". You should have supported people in need long, long go when you had clout as an organized religion. Now you're in rapid decline, looking for handouts from people who no longer need you or look to you for guidance.
11
Your comments barely relate to the article. There are plenty of sources in Catholic history that relate to welcoming divorced, remarried and gay worshippers. And you ignore that the Church is growing exponentially in Africa. The encyclicals aren't meant only for progressive American Catholics, they're meant for believers worldwide. Time will tell. Organized religions aren't nimble policy makers, but part of faith is living in the way Christ would have wanted us to treat others and petitioning the Church to come along with us.
4
Give it a break. The reason the church is expanding in Africa is due to more of the same, desperate missionary work because they are trying to find membership. The church is on the decline, and you know it. It lost its moral authority in North America due to the sex abuse scandals, which are a disgrace, and something it still has not rectified. In time, similar scandals will surface in Europe, South America, and Africa, because the abuse is part of church culture. Good riddance to this evil empire. The sooner, the better.
6
Francis has done what he can within the limits of the papacy. He was disappointed by the attitude of the cardinals at his synod - there was no chance of cohesive institutionalized change. The votes were not there. To change dogma would risk open conflict if not schism.
Yet souls look to Francis for Christ’s message of mercy and love.
His simple sweet message of love had a subplot: bypass the bishops. “Communicate with your pastors” is catholic speak for “use good judgment”.
For some reason the “greatest of these is love”
doesn’t play well to the boys in red hats. So Francis did an end run around their pointy hats-
good for him.
Yet souls look to Francis for Christ’s message of mercy and love.
His simple sweet message of love had a subplot: bypass the bishops. “Communicate with your pastors” is catholic speak for “use good judgment”.
For some reason the “greatest of these is love”
doesn’t play well to the boys in red hats. So Francis did an end run around their pointy hats-
good for him.
6
Whether, as just announced today, he meets with the Pope or not, Senator Sanders should utilize his forthcoming trip to Rome as an opportunity to urge the Vatican to finally open its Holocaust-era
archives.
All of the other current Presidential candidates should join him in doing this and commit themselves to seeking the opening of the archives if they are elected.
Nothing can bring back the victims of the Holocaust, but it is essential to the honoring of them and the honoring of past and current victims of other genocides in other places that have not yet seen the light of day that the fullest possible public accounting be made of what happened to them.
“For the dead and the living, we must bear witness.”
― Elie Wiesel
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/open-the-vaticans-holocaust-era-...
archives.
All of the other current Presidential candidates should join him in doing this and commit themselves to seeking the opening of the archives if they are elected.
Nothing can bring back the victims of the Holocaust, but it is essential to the honoring of them and the honoring of past and current victims of other genocides in other places that have not yet seen the light of day that the fullest possible public accounting be made of what happened to them.
“For the dead and the living, we must bear witness.”
― Elie Wiesel
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/open-the-vaticans-holocaust-era-...
4
I appreciate Francis' efforts. But no less than this will do: The entire hierarchy of the church, the two popes (where are you, Benedict?), all cardinals, all bishops, all monsignors, all leaders of religious orders, all dressed in the garb of the humble gather in Vatican Square. All kneel down, rend their garments, and beg forgiveness of their God and the whole world, especially all those who have been harmed by their sins of commission and omission. Only when we hear their combined and sincere expression of absolute penitence--and their pledge that they will sin no more---can forgiveness be granted.
2
It nice of the Pope to show a bit of doctrinal flexibility towards non-nuclear, nontraditional families and divorced people, but is it realistic to expect that this will attract millions of disaffected Catholics back to the Church? The barn door is being closed a generation or more after the cows walked away.
And what of the local bishops and parish priests, especially the aged, conservative ones, who make up so much of the Catholic clergy? Is it realistic to expect that they will welcome with open hearts those who are "living in sin", simply as a result of Francis's proclamation?
And what of the local bishops and parish priests, especially the aged, conservative ones, who make up so much of the Catholic clergy? Is it realistic to expect that they will welcome with open hearts those who are "living in sin", simply as a result of Francis's proclamation?
24
No. It is a recipe for confusion and disaffection. What is a parish priest to make of this Jesuitical mum of jumbo?
1
I don't get. Is there some form of communion police that checks your marital status? Do they have a list of divorced, guy, LGBT or other so called "undesirables"? Whose to stop anyone in receiving the sacrament? If anyone calls you out, tell them it's none of their business. Stand up for yourself for you are much better than they are.
4
If the priest knows you're divorced he can simply refuse to serve you. I've never heard of anyone being refused communion because they're gay. If they started refusing communion to gay people, a substantial percentage of the priests and brothers couldn't receive.
1
"He describes families as under siege by the pressures of modern life."
Many couples feel under siege because the pope told them not to use artificial birth control, and so, they ended up having more children then they can afford or have the emotional energy or time to raise properly.
Many couples feel under siege because the pope told them not to use artificial birth control, and so, they ended up having more children then they can afford or have the emotional energy or time to raise properly.
11
I really wonder what the pope and his staff know about love, sex and marriage. The answer should, of course, be NOTHING!
8
Since the rate of divorces is higher for second marriages than it is for first marriages, if divorced Catholics were allowed to receive communion, maybe-- just maybe-- the high rate of divorces for second marriages would go down!!!!!
OK the use of contraceptives now, Pope.
8
This has this has been the tradition of the Catholic Church for hundreds of years. I don't think one man alone should override hundreds of years of religious tradition.
8
I DO think it's the Pope's right to FIX hundreds of years of religious WRONGDOING!
5
First, the Pope is not overriding anything.
Second, the any tradition within the Church cannot contradict its fundamental mission of love and forgiveness.
Third, some people thought slavery was a wonderful tradition.
Second, the any tradition within the Church cannot contradict its fundamental mission of love and forgiveness.
Third, some people thought slavery was a wonderful tradition.
2
It's hardly one man alone. It's a good portion, perhaps a majority, of the reasonably well-educated Catholics who are still in the Church, who realize that the official policy of the RC organization is quite simply mistaken about many things, especially human sexuality.
The church is a human institution, and as such it can make, and certainly has made, mistakes. And it has often rectified them (for example, usury, slavery, limbo, burning non-Catholic Christians at the stake, stuff like that).
As a Gay Catholic I would have liked Francis to have gone a good deal further, but I understand that he is trying to point us in a fundamentally different direction, away from laws, rules, and a slavish devotion to the way we've looked at things in the past. And I applaud him for that.
The church is a human institution, and as such it can make, and certainly has made, mistakes. And it has often rectified them (for example, usury, slavery, limbo, burning non-Catholic Christians at the stake, stuff like that).
As a Gay Catholic I would have liked Francis to have gone a good deal further, but I understand that he is trying to point us in a fundamentally different direction, away from laws, rules, and a slavish devotion to the way we've looked at things in the past. And I applaud him for that.
2
It was not the case that " Francis once again closed the door on same-sex marriage, saying it cannot be seen as the equivalent of heterosexual unions". No, what he said was:
"...As for proposals to place unions between homosexual persons on the same level as marriage, there are absolutely no grounds for considering homosexual unions to be in any way similar or even remotely analogous to God's plan for marriage and family".
That's not someone drawing a distinction, or failing to see an equivalence. That's someone being out and out prejudiced, offensive and insulting.
It's time to stop deluding ourselves: this Pope is no better than his predecessors - even if he is accomplished at public relations.
"...As for proposals to place unions between homosexual persons on the same level as marriage, there are absolutely no grounds for considering homosexual unions to be in any way similar or even remotely analogous to God's plan for marriage and family".
That's not someone drawing a distinction, or failing to see an equivalence. That's someone being out and out prejudiced, offensive and insulting.
It's time to stop deluding ourselves: this Pope is no better than his predecessors - even if he is accomplished at public relations.
5
If he is right (and he is) in this because it advances the interests off 99% of humanity whilst leaving the possibility of a life with dignity to the remainder and it left only you unhappy........would he still be prejudiced?
3
I'm not sure I've understood your comment, but you seem to be arguing that marriage is a zero sum game - and that for heterosexual marriage to be successful, homosexual marriage must be denied. And I am certainly right to say that that is not the case. And it advances the interests of 100% of humanity to accept equality before the law in this, as in all things. There isn't a finite supply of marriage - everyone can have one.
And yes, he is prejudiced. If he'd said same-sex marriage was different to opposite-sex marriage due to some nonsensical notion of the complementary nature of men as compared to women then I would just sigh and realise that he's stuck in a world of out-moded gender roles. However, to argue that "there are absolutely no grounds for considering homosexual unions to be in any way similar or even remotely analogous" to heterosexual unions is to deliberately choose to be insulting and offensive. And what could have prompted that, except for a deeply ingrained prejudice?
And yes, he is prejudiced. If he'd said same-sex marriage was different to opposite-sex marriage due to some nonsensical notion of the complementary nature of men as compared to women then I would just sigh and realise that he's stuck in a world of out-moded gender roles. However, to argue that "there are absolutely no grounds for considering homosexual unions to be in any way similar or even remotely analogous" to heterosexual unions is to deliberately choose to be insulting and offensive. And what could have prompted that, except for a deeply ingrained prejudice?
1
April 8, 2016
Great witness to the worldly struggle to acquire joy and spiritual maturity’s heavenly grace –and let’s recall the below quotes as to engage in our Times: for all times- as well:
Pope Francis and Friedrich Nietzsche:
“It is not 'progressive' to try to resolve problems by eliminating a human life.”
― Pope Francis, The Joy of the Gospel: Evangelii Gaudium
“Nothing is beautiful, only man: on this piece of naivete rests all aesthetics, it is the first truth of aesthetics. Let us immediately add its second: nothing is ugly but degenerate man - the domain of aesthetic judgment is therewith defined.” Friedrich Nietzsche
JJA Manhattan, N. Y.
Great witness to the worldly struggle to acquire joy and spiritual maturity’s heavenly grace –and let’s recall the below quotes as to engage in our Times: for all times- as well:
Pope Francis and Friedrich Nietzsche:
“It is not 'progressive' to try to resolve problems by eliminating a human life.”
― Pope Francis, The Joy of the Gospel: Evangelii Gaudium
“Nothing is beautiful, only man: on this piece of naivete rests all aesthetics, it is the first truth of aesthetics. Let us immediately add its second: nothing is ugly but degenerate man - the domain of aesthetic judgment is therewith defined.” Friedrich Nietzsche
JJA Manhattan, N. Y.
1
this coming from the same pope who held a secret meeting with kim davis.
7
It has since been proven that he had no idea who she was or what she stands for. The (extremely conservative) Archbishop who engineered the whole thing was quickly demoted. The Vatican also spoke out immediately, rebuking Davis' comments.
http://www.cnn.com/2015/10/02/us/kim-davis-pope/index.html
Davis and her lawyer tried to use the Pope for their own personal, political aims, and the Vatican took a rare step to correct their comments.
http://www.cnn.com/2015/10/02/us/kim-davis-pope/index.html
Davis and her lawyer tried to use the Pope for their own personal, political aims, and the Vatican took a rare step to correct their comments.
2
Which four people still live their lives according to what the Pope says?
5
God has nothing to say about nay of these issues. So man steps forward and brings man's own demagoguery to the proceedings.
5
I believe absolutely.... that if The Pill and safe abortion had been discovered in 4BCE that there would be no Catholic Church.... or any other religions.
The Pope may speak on any matter he wishes, but unless it is on clergy rapes of children, then it is really relatively unimportant, isn't it? What is 'taking communion' compared to destroying children?
This is all so unimportant.
The Pope may speak on any matter he wishes, but unless it is on clergy rapes of children, then it is really relatively unimportant, isn't it? What is 'taking communion' compared to destroying children?
This is all so unimportant.
15
This Catholic Christian tries to use the brain God gave me and lives life accordingly. Do I believe everything coming from Rome? Of course not! Do I believe homosexuals will go to hell? Not unless they do evil things like some heterosexuals do. I have divorced and remarried Catholic friends who take Communion without being annulled. We all have a conscience. Be brave enough to use it. Take responsibility for your own life; that's God wants from us.
8
Here's a concept -- become a Protestant -- no Pope or hierarchy to tell you what to think, how to act, how or when to pray, who to love, no one to tell you that you aren't worthy of communion or that you need to confess to another person the things that you hold in your heart, soul and mind etc. It's all on YOU -- your conscience, your choices, and your relationship directly with Jesus Christ/God -- no one standing between you -- just you and the Holy Spirit. That's the real test of your faith -- your ability to do the right thing without another person making you feel guilty about what you are or aren't doing. It makes you totally responsible for your immortal soul. It's the ultimate freedom and the ultimate responsibility.
And -- if you choose to not believe in a higher power/creator/God -- then choose to be an atheist and formulate your own "code" of being a responsible, decent person. It's not that difficult if you are up to the challenge.
And -- if you choose to not believe in a higher power/creator/God -- then choose to be an atheist and formulate your own "code" of being a responsible, decent person. It's not that difficult if you are up to the challenge.
5
You're right no pope with the Protestants but there a ton of grifters like Franklin Graham, Joel Osteen et al. who stand ready to fleece folk to fund their lavish lifestyles.
5
So how come he keeps targeting poor gay kids for spiritual abuse and excluding them from having loving relationships and forming families; and yet keeps pushing the idea of only male celibates can be priests, which is highly unnatural?
5
And what message does he send to the children of gay parents who are loved and cared for just as much as those in families with straight parents. Do these children need to be told that they really are not part of a "legitimate" family? That their families are not analogous in any way to "God's plan"? How unfeeling and how mean is this?
6
What is unnatural? Being a delibrant? A priest? Or believing in all this unnatural discussion?
Seems they are all unnatural.
Seems they are all unnatural.
Call me a cynic, but with attendance at Catholic churches plummeting worldwide, is this an attempt to lure back the disenfranchised with vague pronouncements that are really meaningless in an effort to improve cash flow? Nothing really new here, just the same old dogma prettied up for mass consumption.
10
Ok . You're a cynic. next.
1
Yes
2
Ok. Your a cynic.
But pass the plate so I can get some.
But pass the plate so I can get some.
I'm gay. I loved the Church as a kid, but there's nothing in this for me. The Church thinks I'm immoral, that my marriage is not part of God's plan, that homosexuality (rather than their own warped views on sexuality in general) was the cause of their pedophilia scandal. How could a change in tone, even if it were sincere which I don't believe this to be, change any of that? The passage about no "unjust" discrimination or violence against gays feels like it was written by a lawyer. All discrimination against gays is "just" in the eyes of the Church -- the American Bishops have opposed every single attempt at gay civil rights legislation ever proposed -- even those that merely relate to employment and housing and public accommodations. And the part about violence? Written to clear their conscience about all of the violence that still, to this day, is being committed against gay people around the world in the name of God. This document was written as an attempt to get divorced straight Catholics back in the pews and their bucks back in the collection basket. Which is exactly what all the media, ever anxious to write positive stories about this pope, are focused on. I am barely a footnote.
21
The pope chooses to speak in circles. This means nothing . Nothing has changed.
Much ado about nothing
Much ado about nothing
8
Some who don't seem to be welcomed into the full life of the Church are non-canonical married priests, laicized and non-laicized, who are excluded from liturgical ministry (e.g. lector) and catechetical roles.
I'm waiting for the "second day story," which should be a survey of the local hierarchy men, including the intolerant Cardinal Dolan, to get them on record in response to the papal document. The reporter should note that Cardinal Dolan opposed the pope's leadership at a recent synod of bishops.
8
Shame on Dolan though, Francis would exhort us to forgive him.
2
Yes, it will be interesting to see how this plays out with the hard-nose Cardinals and US Bishops. Just look at their stonewalling of priest abuse scandals. The Pope talks a good talk but like the President knowing is changed without support.
1
Forgive whom? Dolan? Frank? Both?
No secret that the big church on Fifth has had its share of closet types. It would have been good if one bothered to come out of the sacristy and said, "Guess what?"
Jesus was a Jew. He hung with men and probably had at least one wife. He wasn't afraid to "miraculize" a bit of wine for his
own affair. He was either the caterer, the wine steward or a very special guest. But as religous scholars have shown, only the bridegroom gets approached on such matters as providing the food and drinks at a wedding. No one would approach a guest at a Jewish wedding around 30 CE to pony up for more beer and wine or ask to do so today.
It was true then and true today, Jesus was a Jew who had a problem with the status quo just as his modern day stand in has a problem with big money, phony beliefs and intolerance based on those falsehoods.
In recent elections the question asked, "Who would you rather have a beer with?" Don't say Trump because he ain't buying. And don't ask Hilliary because you'll have to spend the night with Bubba and his date. Ted don't drink if he is a real Conservative Christian and Kalish is ... well Kalish. And Bush II, everyone's 2000 and 2004 favorite is still trying to figure out how to open a bottle of beer and fly a plane.
Maybe Frank is available. He usually hangs with the boys at the bar in the croft of the Vatican. But on the whole, he would probably buy the first round.
No secret that the big church on Fifth has had its share of closet types. It would have been good if one bothered to come out of the sacristy and said, "Guess what?"
Jesus was a Jew. He hung with men and probably had at least one wife. He wasn't afraid to "miraculize" a bit of wine for his
own affair. He was either the caterer, the wine steward or a very special guest. But as religous scholars have shown, only the bridegroom gets approached on such matters as providing the food and drinks at a wedding. No one would approach a guest at a Jewish wedding around 30 CE to pony up for more beer and wine or ask to do so today.
It was true then and true today, Jesus was a Jew who had a problem with the status quo just as his modern day stand in has a problem with big money, phony beliefs and intolerance based on those falsehoods.
In recent elections the question asked, "Who would you rather have a beer with?" Don't say Trump because he ain't buying. And don't ask Hilliary because you'll have to spend the night with Bubba and his date. Ted don't drink if he is a real Conservative Christian and Kalish is ... well Kalish. And Bush II, everyone's 2000 and 2004 favorite is still trying to figure out how to open a bottle of beer and fly a plane.
Maybe Frank is available. He usually hangs with the boys at the bar in the croft of the Vatican. But on the whole, he would probably buy the first round.
It seems to me that the Pope is confined between the possible and the necessary, so he's punting a good portion of the decisions that must be made downward. This may end up democratizing the church but, as Obama has reminded us, change is a marathon, not a sprint.
The church still needs urgently to deal with the status of women, with gay marriage, and with contraception. These are a double edged swords for them, however, as control over sexuality has been a cornerstone of indoctrination--if you can control basic bodily functions, you can control the person.
Part of me thinks that with hetero men avoiding or abandoning the priesthood in droves, if the Pope were to sanction gay marriage, gay men would leave the priesthood as well and the only priests left would be pedophiles.
Globally consistent standards have also been a cornerstone of the church's dogma--how can God have intended that a sin for certain peoples is accepted behavior for others?
How long can the church survive WITH rigid adherence to ridiculous dogma? How long can it survive WITHOUT rigid adherence to ridiculous dogma? Those are the horns of their dilemma.
The church still needs urgently to deal with the status of women, with gay marriage, and with contraception. These are a double edged swords for them, however, as control over sexuality has been a cornerstone of indoctrination--if you can control basic bodily functions, you can control the person.
Part of me thinks that with hetero men avoiding or abandoning the priesthood in droves, if the Pope were to sanction gay marriage, gay men would leave the priesthood as well and the only priests left would be pedophiles.
Globally consistent standards have also been a cornerstone of the church's dogma--how can God have intended that a sin for certain peoples is accepted behavior for others?
How long can the church survive WITH rigid adherence to ridiculous dogma? How long can it survive WITHOUT rigid adherence to ridiculous dogma? Those are the horns of their dilemma.
8
Amen, Bill!!
1
2,000 years and then ask the same question again.
My father, from a strict Catholic upbringing, was ousted from the Church when he married my mother after he had been divorced. Somehow, I don't think he ever really got over the guilt he felt though I know he loved my mother dearly. I wonder if my parents' marriage would have been different if he and she (a Protestant) had been free of religious dogma. I applaud Pope Francis for his view which suggests that love is greater than religious teachings that separate us from each other.
49
This pope will say anything or support anything which furthers the influence of the church and gets people to think that Jesus, or more specifically, the church can save them.
That idea of Jesus, is nothing more than spiritual greed, spiritual self-covetousness. And the pope in a modern world is nothing more than a celebrity, a political figure. He will do all he can to undermine the very simple concept of a basic nuclear family with a mother and a father because he is hoping America will unravel and the church can expand again and be once more at the very center of spiritual life.
But, today, every single one of us must create, from scratch, spiritual strategies that best work for us individually.
That idea of Jesus, is nothing more than spiritual greed, spiritual self-covetousness. And the pope in a modern world is nothing more than a celebrity, a political figure. He will do all he can to undermine the very simple concept of a basic nuclear family with a mother and a father because he is hoping America will unravel and the church can expand again and be once more at the very center of spiritual life.
But, today, every single one of us must create, from scratch, spiritual strategies that best work for us individually.
Yes we should be a church that does not disqualify individuals who sin because there is none perfect except GOD (JESUS-Mark 10:8). Yet for those who do not "go and sin no more," or make an attempt to turn from their sinfulness, JESUS is equally clear. JESUS said,"If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother. But if he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, that every charge may be established by the evidence of two or three witnesses. If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church. And if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector," Matthew 18:15-17. Paul said it this way,"you are to deliver this man to Satan (turn him out of the Church) for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord," 1 Corinthians 5:5. I guess Francis thinks JESUS' teachings are not worth following. Love does not mean allowing people to do whatever they feel like doing. It means doing what will bring them into a closer relationship with JESUS. Sin separates us from GOD, so accepting perpetual sin does not accomplish that. The 10 Commandments are actually GOD'S love letter to us. When we follow them we love GOD and others sacrificially, without thinking about ourselves. Just as JESUS did for us. Only HIS Holy SPIRIT can lead us to love more perfectly.
Amazed that thinking loving humans feel the need to obtain permission to receive communion from an old man who has never been married or in a committed relationship. God loves everyone and welcomes all.
6
Just so we're clear, what God are you talking about?
Horus, Shiva, Utna Pishtum, Thor?
Please be specific.
Horus, Shiva, Utna Pishtum, Thor?
Please be specific.
7
None of the above and all of the above. Don't forget the million or so Hindi gods and all the nature gods. But most of all watch the god of the mighty green dollar who now rules at churches called the market.
What I find interesting, amusing and frankly frightening is the hate and ignorance evident in so many posts here. Most of the posts are scurrilous and would not be tolerated if they were about Muslims, Gays or women. There is an almost total absence of fact based argument, historical knowledge, religious knowledge or any understanding of the human experience. It can all be summed up as - the church says no and it won't change to agree with me so it is evil and after all each of us is free to do as we choose and morality is relevant and we no what is good and don't need anything or anyone to tell us nothing. So There!
why do they bother to attack the church. The church is not holding a gun on them or burning them alive in cages. The church is not demanding or hounding people over political correctness. Why do they bother?
why do they bother to attack the church. The church is not holding a gun on them or burning them alive in cages. The church is not demanding or hounding people over political correctness. Why do they bother?
49
The inquisitorial nature of the less than positive remarks calls to mind George Santayana's aphorism, "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it,"
Maxine,
Whenever there is an article about the Catholic Church, the anti-Catholicism comes out full force. The Catholic haters are unmerciful and will say the most vile and mean-spirited things imaginable. I think they are truly unhappy people who are taking their frustrations and hate out on the Church. This is so sad and unfortunate. I feel sorry for them.
Whenever there is an article about the Catholic Church, the anti-Catholicism comes out full force. The Catholic haters are unmerciful and will say the most vile and mean-spirited things imaginable. I think they are truly unhappy people who are taking their frustrations and hate out on the Church. This is so sad and unfortunate. I feel sorry for them.
7
If the church simply proclaimed rather than trying - sometimes very successfully - to make others change to their will, that would be one thing. But that's not the case. They do not leave "the rest of us to do as we choose". Rather, they influence elections, preach from the pulpits in violation of IRS laws, keep reproductive health care out of women's hands and spread hateful, derogatory ideas about gay and LGBT people. Their efforts to control "the rest of us" detrimentally affects and concretely impacts people lives.
6
Perhaps it was an opportune time for the Pope to refer to the profound revelations in the Gnostic gospels, discovered at Nag Hammadi in the 1940's. One of the gospels was accepted by modern scholars as the 'Gospel of Mary Magdalene', accepted in fact as one of his disciples. Other gospels discovered also tell of Christ's other disciples noting with a modicum of jealousy that Mary Magdalene regularly kissed Jesus. To me this was a new testament of natural human interaction, hidden for millenia from those who transformed the despotic Roman Empire into the Catholic Church, for they would have destroyed it. Gnosticism is described by scholars as 'inherent knowledge' of right and wrong and our place in humanity, i.e. we don't need a doctrine as a blinking light to guide us through tempest. The 'Amoris Laetitia' is really a clever piece of modern global PR, at a time of much gnashing and importuning for answers in a noisy, superficial, confused and terrifying world. I do believe that our inherent knowledge derives from conscience, that nagging thing of the human soul, that constantly warns, comforts, protects, scolds and rewards us on our journey to our final destiny, our self-Judgement. Methinks Alfred Lord Tennyson's one-liner may have had equal impact on a modern flock seeking meaning: "More good is wrought by prayer than this world dreams of.'
1
Frankly, I am disappointed. After two Synods and so much anticipation, nothing really changed. Perhaps the massive amount of money and time that was spent on this should have been spent on helping the poor. For a Pope who is so outspoken about poverty, he has done little to address one what is probably the root cause of poverty which is population growth and depletion of natural resources. The opinion, expressed within this document, that contraception is anti child or anti life is tragically incorrect.
60
Worthy to receive Communion? None are worthy. It is only because of the mercy of our Lord that any of us dare to approach the Holy Chalice. Remarried Catholics can be far more saintly than once married Catholics who approach to receive the fountain of immortality. I am Russian Orthodox and have never understood Catholic teaching on this issue of remarried Catholics who have not received an annulment. Much unnecessarily tortured thinking there.
4
It would be best if nobody cared what the pope does or says.
10
Am not surprised, but disappointed, by the negative response from Mr. Reno of First Things, a reliable voice for the conservatives.
The reactionaries that embrace the mindset of Reno and First Things understand faith as a philosophy, a system requiring adherents to embrace clearly established principles and rules that leave no room for individual interpretation or deviation -- all must conform and be in lockstep while on pilgrimage in this life.
However, faith has to do with a relationship, a relationship of trust and love of a person. Doctrines forged by an ecclesial hierarchy may satisfy those looking for security and certitude but has little to do with building a trusting relationship with a person, which is what faith is ultimately about. This explains why conservatives do not value parables open to various interpretations.
The reactionaries that embrace the mindset of Reno and First Things understand faith as a philosophy, a system requiring adherents to embrace clearly established principles and rules that leave no room for individual interpretation or deviation -- all must conform and be in lockstep while on pilgrimage in this life.
However, faith has to do with a relationship, a relationship of trust and love of a person. Doctrines forged by an ecclesial hierarchy may satisfy those looking for security and certitude but has little to do with building a trusting relationship with a person, which is what faith is ultimately about. This explains why conservatives do not value parables open to various interpretations.
2
The pope and the Church and Christians in general are very good at telling us what God does not want gay people to do. They are totally silent on what God does want gay people to do besides not being gay, which is beyond their power since they did not choose to be gay.
They could take their gayness as a sign that God has chosen them to live a life of celibacy, ignoring the unnatural urges and attractions they feel. They could take gayness as a sign that God wants them to become priests or nuns, except that the Church does not want them (or at least says it doesnt).
They could take their gayness as something that God wants them to ignore, so that he wants them to live normal lives, get married, have heterosexual sex (even if they find the experience unnatural or disgusting), have children, and so on. To make this work, they will probably have to lie to their marriage partners, family, and friends, so that their whole social existence is haunted by a dark secret. That God would want them to live this way is morally odd, to say the least.
They could live lives that include open sexuality and same-sex marriage, and treat their spouses and children with the same sort of love and care that God expects heterosexual marriages to exemplify. But this, for some reason, is much more unacceptable to God that living the closet lie.
Or they could accept that their sexual being is an abomination to God that will send them straight to hell anyway, and kill themselves.
They could take their gayness as a sign that God has chosen them to live a life of celibacy, ignoring the unnatural urges and attractions they feel. They could take gayness as a sign that God wants them to become priests or nuns, except that the Church does not want them (or at least says it doesnt).
They could take their gayness as something that God wants them to ignore, so that he wants them to live normal lives, get married, have heterosexual sex (even if they find the experience unnatural or disgusting), have children, and so on. To make this work, they will probably have to lie to their marriage partners, family, and friends, so that their whole social existence is haunted by a dark secret. That God would want them to live this way is morally odd, to say the least.
They could live lives that include open sexuality and same-sex marriage, and treat their spouses and children with the same sort of love and care that God expects heterosexual marriages to exemplify. But this, for some reason, is much more unacceptable to God that living the closet lie.
Or they could accept that their sexual being is an abomination to God that will send them straight to hell anyway, and kill themselves.
10
The church isn't telling you anything. You are demanding that the church change to suit you. No one is dragging you in the door.
2
I am always amused that the homosexual community loves the argument "I did not choose to be gay" as if he church should then grant them the imprimatur they so desperately seek. Science has yet to determine the cause of homosexuality so that argument is without merit.
4
Nobody not even straight, devout Christians get everything they want.
Life is like that---we all have difficulties and issues to deal with.
Now you are more than welcome to be gay because I believe that is your choice. I don't believe in the "modern" and "trendy" idea that being gay is something that is genetically determined and that you have no choice because "God made you that way". That is a clever way to avoid personal responsibility---blaming things on somebody else. Every human personality is a combination of nature (biology) and nurture (environment). Now your are free to practice your chosen sexual orientation as you wish but remember I have rights too---it's not all about you because you are a "victim".
If you are expecting me to "accept" gay marriage which has no reliable precedents in biology, human physiology, history or law and which no major religion sanctions and which is against my morals and that many people feel is unnatural, abnormal and immoral then since you are infringing on my rights---and I have rights too---then we have a problem. Live your life as you see fit but don't expect me to validate a social contract that many people honestly believe is wrong.
In other words mind your own business and don't ask me or society to legitimize your behavior. It's not my job or the government's or the Church's to make you feel good about yourself.
Life is like that---we all have difficulties and issues to deal with.
Now you are more than welcome to be gay because I believe that is your choice. I don't believe in the "modern" and "trendy" idea that being gay is something that is genetically determined and that you have no choice because "God made you that way". That is a clever way to avoid personal responsibility---blaming things on somebody else. Every human personality is a combination of nature (biology) and nurture (environment). Now your are free to practice your chosen sexual orientation as you wish but remember I have rights too---it's not all about you because you are a "victim".
If you are expecting me to "accept" gay marriage which has no reliable precedents in biology, human physiology, history or law and which no major religion sanctions and which is against my morals and that many people feel is unnatural, abnormal and immoral then since you are infringing on my rights---and I have rights too---then we have a problem. Live your life as you see fit but don't expect me to validate a social contract that many people honestly believe is wrong.
In other words mind your own business and don't ask me or society to legitimize your behavior. It's not my job or the government's or the Church's to make you feel good about yourself.
5
In as much as the Pope's message is a move towards greater tolerance towards one another, this evolution in the Church's thinking should be greeted as a positive step. In this country his message couldn't come at a better time, when the sanctimonious Cruz and the vile Trump preach the very opposite.
6
Glad I'm not Catholic. How could you trust a single guy, a priest, who possibly has never been in a committed relationship, to give advice on modern relationships? The church seems extremely out of touch with how we live. They should let priests marry, and should also allow female priests.
13
Words cannot express my profound disappointment in the pope's failure to act for the good of the defenseless and marginalized within the Church. By failing to alter doctrinal prescriptions against divorced persons, gay persons, and women seeking basic physical and financial rights, he has abandoned them to the often merciless "care" of conservative bishops and doctrinaire priests. Those lucky few who are in the care of truly compassionate pastors will benefit further from his pleas to "take into account the complexity of various situations", whatever that means (does it mean they may bend/break doctrine? Most will say no, given the lack of clear doctrinal alternatives that Francis has failed to provide. They will cast judgment accordingly). Those with limited pastoral options, which describes most Catholics given the dwindling number of vocations, will continue to suffer as the unchanged doctrine is applied by conservative clerics. Pope Francis seems to be a good and compassionate man - but he is also the man with the power to change the rules that are the mainstay of clerical decision-making on these thorny issues. In refusing to alter doctrine, he is effectively refusing to act at all. Amoris Laetitia is, in the end, a lovely and poetically-written sleight of hand.
5
Um, you do understand that the pope cannot change doctrine?
I regret seeing the Catholic Church liberalize it's rules. If only they would cling to the rules that were in place 50 - 100 years ago, they would go out of business that much sooner. The Catholic Church is sitting on approximately 40 trillion dollars while people all over the earth starve to death.
12
About 40 years ago, my mother divorced a physically abusive husband. Part of the cost for her was leaving the church she loved, which told her clearly she was unworthy of the sacraments and unwelcome generally. Partly because of her brave choice and good example, I'm a well-adjusted adult in a happy marriage with a happy family -- one in which no one depends on a cadre of celibate old men to tell us whether we are or aren't OK in the eyes of God or anyone else.
27
My mother experienced an identical situation, though it was about 60 years ago. That they shun people who are trying to literally preserve their lives is not only an abomination, it's simply unfathomable to me. Thanks for sharing!
4
Well said Kevin. Well said. - Jaime
1
Your comment has me puzzled and I am wondering if you have omitted a few facts. Even 40 years ago the Catholic Church would welcome a divorced person to attend but would only be able to receive Communion if they had not remarried outside the Church. I know this to be true because I was acquainted with someone in this situation. Please elaborate on your story. Thank you.
4
As a Priest in the Episcopal Church, I wish to say that some denominations of Christianity are ahead of the Bishop of Rome. What he is saying is not new to us, and he is following our lead even if he is still somewhat behind us. Sadly the media has been giving too much attention to him and not to other vibrant and more progressive branches of the Church.
11
John Bartle,
The Catholic religion is over 2000 years old with 1.2 billion members. Your religion has not been in existence for long and has a very low membership. The reality is that the Catholic Church is still very relevant to many people. Can you say that of the Episcopal Church?
The Catholic religion is over 2000 years old with 1.2 billion members. Your religion has not been in existence for long and has a very low membership. The reality is that the Catholic Church is still very relevant to many people. Can you say that of the Episcopal Church?
5
And this is why people do not remain associated with your church. You are the epitome of judgment and ego. There are many things one could say in response to your intentionally demeaning comment here, but please know that your church is not very relevant to most people in the Western world. And it's relevance or degree of irrelevance is totally due to people like you and to your clergy.
1
Many gods have been around far, far longer than yours but that still doesn't mean they exist.
About 300 years out of date but good on you Francis! Who knows, by the time the Republicans and climate change are done with us the Catholic Church's teachings might just be relevant again.
5
I'm not Catholic, but I've lived long enough to see several Popes come and go. Francis seems to understand the you don't bring people into the church by shutting them out. Whether people choose to live by the church's teachings is a personal choice, but Jesus would have welcomed all to His presence and if the church want's to be faithful to His teachings, it should be willing to do the same.
8
The point of the Catholic Church is that we strive to leave our sins behind to reach heaven. We welcome all people to follow this path but some do not accept the invitation. We are not required to lower out standards for those who have rejected the terms and conditions. Matt 16:24 Then Jesus said to his disciples, “Whoever wants to be my disciple must deny themselves and take up their cross and follow me.
We are required to treat people with love and understanding but unequivocally reject sin.
We are required to treat people with love and understanding but unequivocally reject sin.
5
"Man has a dark side. It's called stupidity. In the same measure that ritual forced the average man to construct HUGE CHURCHES THAT WERE MONUMENTS TO SELF-IMPORTANCE..." Carlos Castaneda from the book The Power of Silence.
"SELF-IMPORTANCE is our greatest enemy. What weakens us is feeling offended by the deeds and misdeeds of our fellow men. Our self-importance requires that we spend most of our lives offended by someone.
Every effort should be made to eradicate self-importance from the lives of warriors. Without self-importance we are invulnerable."
Carlos Castaneda - from the book Fire From Within.
"SELF-IMPORTANCE is our greatest enemy. What weakens us is feeling offended by the deeds and misdeeds of our fellow men. Our self-importance requires that we spend most of our lives offended by someone.
Every effort should be made to eradicate self-importance from the lives of warriors. Without self-importance we are invulnerable."
Carlos Castaneda - from the book Fire From Within.
The Pope is encouraging and blessing what is already done in practice in many parishes - at least in North America. In the U.S. I used to attend a church where a quarter of the parishioners were openly gay and they were the most active members. Some of those who had been rejected by parents found surrogate parents among the elderly church members. They were already living in the spirit of the "Joy of Love".
At the parish level, the Church has been evolving with society and it is time that the hierarchy, if they want to stay relevant, catch up.
At the parish level, the Church has been evolving with society and it is time that the hierarchy, if they want to stay relevant, catch up.
4
While visiting the interior of Mexico for the first time in the early 90s, I saw horrendous poverty. After all these years, I still see the image of a man in the early morning, leaning over sifting through garbage with his young son at his side. His cross dangling from his neck. "Good Catholics" having child after child that they could not afford. I spoke to a missionary who confirmed this was leading to unbearable hardship that too often ended in violence in the homes for which there was little to be done since divorce was out of the question. Soon afterwards, I went to Rome and toured the Vatican Museum for the first time. I could not reconcile what I was seeing compared to what I had experienced the year before in Mexico.
After a long and agonizing decision, I left the Catholic church.
Bless this Pope for having the courage to begin addressing these issues. It is a long time coming.
After a long and agonizing decision, I left the Catholic church.
Bless this Pope for having the courage to begin addressing these issues. It is a long time coming.
5
I'd say the Pope is somewhat behind the times. This is 2016. Divorce has long been accepted. Homosexuality within the church has long been acknowledged. Homosexuality in general is gaining acceptance. Now if Catholicism would allow priests (and nuns) to be married, then it really might be a modern step forward.
7
As Catholics we do not follow trends or times we follow Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition. Scripture tells us Matt 19:9 I say to you, whoever divorces his wife (unless the marriage is unlawful) commits adultery. (So it is not ever separation there is a problem with but remarriage) And Tradition as well as study of natural law tells us that Homosexuality is unlawful. As for priests marrying the purpose of a the charism of Celibacy is to devote ones entire body and focus to God. Why would we want them distracted from his higher calling?
If you don't agree fine but you cannot be Catholic (find a happy clappy church to fit your presences) and the Church does not have to change for your or anyones views or preferences.
If you don't agree fine but you cannot be Catholic (find a happy clappy church to fit your presences) and the Church does not have to change for your or anyones views or preferences.
16
It seems unremarkable to conclude that a church on the world stage with billions of followers which does not hesitate to assert itself in political issues becomes fair game for criticism.
2
This kind of blind adherence to rules and church doctrine is PRECISELY what the Pope is saying not to do in this exhortation.
If you have ears...listen.
If you have ears...listen.
1
The Episcopal Church welcomes you!
7
Until the Roman Catholic Church admits to systemic, organic gender bias and repents of it through real change, any talk of "mercy" is window dressing put up to get people back inside the buildings on Sundays and Holy Days of Obligation. While I have zero opinion as to whether heterosexual or LGBT marriages are equal, I note that under the banner of the Catholic League, Right to Lifers in our community distribute pamphlets encouraging single mothers to carry the child to term and then give the child away. The mother child relationship IS the primary family unit. In the 1960's, our pastor told me sometimes girls have to suffer like Christ so boys can keep clean records and support wives and families "down the road." I was young enough to wonder which boys and which road; I was not old enough to realize that I was soon to be tied down in a convent and stripped of my one and only child. Mercy? The Church should be asking for it.
2
"The document offers no new rules or marching orders, and from the outset Francis makes plain that no top-down edicts are coming."
Please pardon the ignorance of this non-Catholic, but, if the above is true, what's the point of this exercise? The Pope seems to be an exceptionally nice man, but does he not have the courage of his convictions?
Please pardon the ignorance of this non-Catholic, but, if the above is true, what's the point of this exercise? The Pope seems to be an exceptionally nice man, but does he not have the courage of his convictions?
4
Mr. Reno said. “This document clearly opens up the possibility that a priest may determine that a divorced and remarried person is worthy to receive communion..."
No, instead it "opens up the possibility" that a lay person will examine his/her conscience and in good conscience determine that there is no impediment to receiving communion, namely because the relationship with the person responsible for founding the firm has not been broken.
No, instead it "opens up the possibility" that a lay person will examine his/her conscience and in good conscience determine that there is no impediment to receiving communion, namely because the relationship with the person responsible for founding the firm has not been broken.
5
The priest's role is to 'inform' conscience, not to make judgements, for only God can do that, since we are His creatures.
2
Bernie Sanders will be at the Vatican next week. Obviously with the Pope's recent blessing of divorced or remarried believers Bernie will be ask his second wife to come along.
1
Bernie is jewish. He can do what he wants.
7
My free will enables me to live my life absent obtaining permission. Nevertheless, the Pope is more accepting than the states of North Carolina, Mississippi and Tennessee.
6
Once again, the Pope dodges the singular issue facing the church and its families. The specter of child sexual abuse continues to hang over the church. Pope Francis has done little to address the issue, other than his usual rhetoric condemning such heinous activity. While the ship slowly sinks under the weight of its hypocrisy, Francis stands on the deck discussing divorce and same sex marriage. Yet he, like his predecessors fails to deliver a proclamation that shows the church is truly serious about ending the sexual abuse of children. Why does Francis find it so difficult to declare in a written proclamation that pedophile priests be excommunicated and remanded to the secular justice system for punishment? That his church will cease its endless litigation with the victims of abuse? That it will root out all of the abusers in its ranks, past and present? That it will join the survivors of abuse in demanding the repeal of statutes of limitations for child molestation? Actions do speak louder than words. Look beneath Francis' bon mots, and you will find that nothing has really changed.
10
The Church is expanding in a lot of poor nations, but still needs money from the rich ones, where sex abuse scandals and increasingly secular morals have been emptying the pews. Francis is walking a tightrope, trying to win back followers in places like the USA without alienating the more conservative Third World faithful.
It's too early to announce the imminent death of a church that still has over a billion followers. But Roman Catholic pontiffs can't stay on the tightrope forever.
It's too early to announce the imminent death of a church that still has over a billion followers. But Roman Catholic pontiffs can't stay on the tightrope forever.
4
It is beyond my comprehension how anyone can still look to the Catholic church as a moral authority of anything after the the fact that the church institutionalized the sexual molestation of children on a global scale and over the course of decades (more likely many centuries). How can anyone, including the New York Times, pay them any attention? It's as if we should all be sitting on the edge of our seats eagerly awaiting their latest moral insights. In fact, the Catholic church has less than ZERO credibility. Child sexual molestation is widely regarded as among the very worst and most morally reprehensible criminality one can imagine. Combine this with the many historical examples of sinister and evil behavior on the part of the Catholic church and you're done. They should dissolve and distribute their unknown billions in net worth to the poor.
19
This pope reminds me of Obama. He ignores the Cardinals in much the same way that Obama has ignored military and national security advice. He only hears that which agrees with his preconceived ideas. There has never been a Jesuit pope before and for good reason. For hundreds of years the Jesuits have been a source of discord in the church. They have been largely responsible for the turmoil since Vatican II. The mission of the Jesuits has been to encounter the world on its terms and win it over. Inevitably the opposite has happened and that's what is happening with this Jesuit pope now. For most of my life the church has been stumbling around in confusion, discord and sin. The message of Jesus has not changed in 2000 years yet my church seemingly hasn't figured it out yet. The path does not lie in accommodating the world or seeking favor with it. It lies in being true to the message of Christ. That is the church that has withstood 2000 years of war, persecution and hatred. As we speak Christians are being murdered around the world. Yet the pope is immersed in doctrinal jujitsu, Jesuitical hair splitting and press releases currying favor with the anti-Catholic left. His message for ordinary priests and the laity is as clear as mud. All of this instead of the spiritual rigor and warfare necessary to confront evil. Who knew that for twenty centuries Catholics had it all wrong? The pope should have "If it feels good do it." carved in St Peter's.
7
I saw quite literally "Thank God" we have a Jesuit pope who faces reality instead of spouting platitudes and encouraging absolutes. Jesuits know more theology and are better educated than 95% of the world's population. Perhaps the spiritual gift of humility would be in order when assessing Francis's motives.
5
We have a drinking game in our group of colleagues.
Find the hate comments in ANY news story that "crucify" Obama when the article is in no way about Obama. Why? Why on earth is it necessary to cast aspersions, shade on a good man, our president when you have a complaint about the Catholic Church?
When has Obama ignored military and national security advice? Perhaps you're thinking of the previous POTUS Bush who ignored CIA memorandums about Al-Qaeda operatives learning to fly 747s or all living together in a specific motel. It was under Bush that we had the biggest terrorist plot played out by al-Qaeda.
There was absolutely NO reason to bring up Obama as a comparison to your dislike for Pope Francis. And Jesuits aren't the knights in shining armor as you claim.
Find the hate comments in ANY news story that "crucify" Obama when the article is in no way about Obama. Why? Why on earth is it necessary to cast aspersions, shade on a good man, our president when you have a complaint about the Catholic Church?
When has Obama ignored military and national security advice? Perhaps you're thinking of the previous POTUS Bush who ignored CIA memorandums about Al-Qaeda operatives learning to fly 747s or all living together in a specific motel. It was under Bush that we had the biggest terrorist plot played out by al-Qaeda.
There was absolutely NO reason to bring up Obama as a comparison to your dislike for Pope Francis. And Jesuits aren't the knights in shining armor as you claim.
8
Sounds to me from your response that you and the Jesuits could use some humility or should we bow to our masters?
3
The pope has demonstrated yet again, in spite of his personal warmth and homespun wisdom, that the courage does not exist within the hierarchy of the Catholic Church to look at sexuality and family life in a balanced and contemporary way.
To send divorced and remarried Catholics to their celibate pastors for advice on how to be reintegrated into the church is only slightly less offensive than the document's unconditional rejection of even an analogy between committed same sex unions and their heterosexual counterparts.
Father Martin's characterization of the document as quietly revolutionary is more wishful thinking than sober assessment.
To send divorced and remarried Catholics to their celibate pastors for advice on how to be reintegrated into the church is only slightly less offensive than the document's unconditional rejection of even an analogy between committed same sex unions and their heterosexual counterparts.
Father Martin's characterization of the document as quietly revolutionary is more wishful thinking than sober assessment.
34
Yes--here we have old men, old thinking, old longings, including from James Martin, S.J. The Pope's document signals "Welcome"? To whom exactly, and how? For a lot of us, it simply doesn't resonate.
7
not resonating with "old men" usually means you resonate with no one.
1
First, I want to say I welcome Pope Francis' emphasis on mercy, and not simply applying moral laws to suffering people as if they were stones to throw at them. I am no longer Catholic, mainly because this is the position that I have always seen the Church to have.
On the other hand, Pope Francis cites the synod, saying “there are absolutely no grounds for considering homosexual unions to be in any way similar remotely analogous to God’s plan for marriage and family.”
It seem to me that he has the whole logic backwards. Perhaps same-sex marriages are not similar or analogous to other marriages in some ways, but is that a reason to ban them? Are there any grounds to consider homosexual unions to be forbidden or sinful? It comes down to whether he is looking for reasons to ban them or reasons to permit them. Religion is often used to justify what we want to do, and if you feel squeamish about same-sex marriages, then it is easy to find passages that justify that position.
Perhaps he should consider the reverse position: "There are absolutely no grounds for considering homosexual unions to be in any way in opposition to God’s plan for marriage and family.”
On the other hand, Pope Francis cites the synod, saying “there are absolutely no grounds for considering homosexual unions to be in any way similar remotely analogous to God’s plan for marriage and family.”
It seem to me that he has the whole logic backwards. Perhaps same-sex marriages are not similar or analogous to other marriages in some ways, but is that a reason to ban them? Are there any grounds to consider homosexual unions to be forbidden or sinful? It comes down to whether he is looking for reasons to ban them or reasons to permit them. Religion is often used to justify what we want to do, and if you feel squeamish about same-sex marriages, then it is easy to find passages that justify that position.
Perhaps he should consider the reverse position: "There are absolutely no grounds for considering homosexual unions to be in any way in opposition to God’s plan for marriage and family.”
6
Sad that people still believe they need this guy's ok to live their lives.
Newsflash, he was not elected by any god, he was elected by humans who work at the Vatican.
He just represents a 2000 year old idea, but does not have a hot line to a god.
You can go live your life without his permission. Nothing bad will happen if you do.
Newsflash, he was not elected by any god, he was elected by humans who work at the Vatican.
He just represents a 2000 year old idea, but does not have a hot line to a god.
You can go live your life without his permission. Nothing bad will happen if you do.
44
Nothing bad will happen if you do.
well, something bad might happen
but it wont be bc you didnt listen to th pope
well, something bad might happen
but it wont be bc you didnt listen to th pope
The Pope's "Joy of Love" has no teeth, but at least he's telling Bishops and priests not to be so judgmental. They'll mostly ignore him, of course, but this reveals the cruel underbelly of the Church, more than a disrespect for this pope's particular orthodoxy. For centuries, the Catholic Church has invented ridiculous doctrines and rituals that have at times defined evil (Charlamagne, the Inquisitions, ignoring persecuted Jews in WW2, raising priests to be sexual predators, and so on). That this pope is trying to bring the Church closer to their invented god, Jesus of Nazarath - a man who accepted people for who they were - it speaks highly of his underlying purpose.
12
At one time one could look to the Catholic Church for moral guidance, increasingly that is becoming no longer the case. The Church has fallen victim to the world of moral relativism, a world in which there are no more absolutes. Moral absolutes are needed to force order upon an otherwise disordered world. Moral absolutes set a standard for which man must strive, although he may fall short, he still must strive to reach them. If man can no longer look to the Catholic Church for moral absolutism, where will he look? Perhaps his best alternative will be Jimmy Swaggart’s Family Worship Center.
2
I can't remember the last time I've read about the Luthern church, the Presbyterian church, or any other closely related sect of Christianity in the Times. For some reason it is the Catholic church that gets all the attention of the Times. Why?
17
Kindly inform Mr. Cruz about these starling new developments in modern thought.
4
I remain eternally amused when those who demand concessions from others refuse to have those same concessions be part of their own response to those with whom they disagree. The presumption of motivation is among them, and Francis' critics, each and every one of them, share this glaring distinction. From the clearly unahppy Catholics who subscribe to "First Things" to the New Ways Ministry family, you can just smell the motivation being attributed to Francis as these negative types pile on about a document I doubt that they have had time to digest in full. As for inviting Bernie Sanders to the Vatican to inject the Church into the American election. Not worthy of response!
This man and the Church he represents are responsible for so much more good than evil. That does NOT excuse the evil. Give the message of "no one is condemned forever" to sink in among those with an open mind, and let's see where it leads us. The negative knee-jerkers can continue to wallow in their own misery, assured that the rest of us know they too are respected, prayer for, and part of the joy of love espoused by Francis.
This man and the Church he represents are responsible for so much more good than evil. That does NOT excuse the evil. Give the message of "no one is condemned forever" to sink in among those with an open mind, and let's see where it leads us. The negative knee-jerkers can continue to wallow in their own misery, assured that the rest of us know they too are respected, prayer for, and part of the joy of love espoused by Francis.
5
The leader of an organization staffed by celibates and paedophiles and steeped in ancient and barbaric superstition has opinions on matters of love and sexuality and anyone cares WHY?
33
Ask Bernie.
1
Catholics weren't "born" Catholic. We were raised by Catholic parents...."May the Circle be unbroken...."
The contingent of lapsed Catholics makes up the third largest "religious" group in the USA. The Catholic Church has tried all sorts of marketing strategies to get us back into the fold. "Welcome Home!" was the banner for awhile. THAT didn't work.
So now they have the primo marketer, another motivational speaker, who espouses gentility, acceptance of all, one who "understands" the modern world.
No it ain't gonna work! I figured out by sixth grade in Catholic School that it was all tommyrot. I told the Mother Superior that I was going to be a priest. My oldest brother was in minor seminary!
But you can't! You're a girl! It was all downhill (uphill?) from then on. It's not like I CHOSE to be an atheist. I just no longer believed in any of this magical mystery tour anymore.
We are in the 21st century! When will something besides the bible be the moral platform that I stand for?
I believe in equality for all. You can love and live with whomever you want.
I had Easter dinner with a family of very wealthy financiers...all had MBAs from Wharton. All were "devout Catholics."
That is how it has ALWAYS worked. The wealthy, the royalty were devout...gave to the church. See? God is saying that being wealthy is our right! Horrific marriage of money and God.
Ted Cruz should be the next Pope.
The contingent of lapsed Catholics makes up the third largest "religious" group in the USA. The Catholic Church has tried all sorts of marketing strategies to get us back into the fold. "Welcome Home!" was the banner for awhile. THAT didn't work.
So now they have the primo marketer, another motivational speaker, who espouses gentility, acceptance of all, one who "understands" the modern world.
No it ain't gonna work! I figured out by sixth grade in Catholic School that it was all tommyrot. I told the Mother Superior that I was going to be a priest. My oldest brother was in minor seminary!
But you can't! You're a girl! It was all downhill (uphill?) from then on. It's not like I CHOSE to be an atheist. I just no longer believed in any of this magical mystery tour anymore.
We are in the 21st century! When will something besides the bible be the moral platform that I stand for?
I believe in equality for all. You can love and live with whomever you want.
I had Easter dinner with a family of very wealthy financiers...all had MBAs from Wharton. All were "devout Catholics."
That is how it has ALWAYS worked. The wealthy, the royalty were devout...gave to the church. See? God is saying that being wealthy is our right! Horrific marriage of money and God.
Ted Cruz should be the next Pope.
16
So the Catholic Church (or Pope Francis, at least) is inclined to soften its stance on divorce ever so slightly. For LGBT folks, not so much. For women in general, it's good old tried & true pregnant & suitably subjugated. How heartening!
24
The pope says "every person regardless of sexual orientation" should be treated with respect and consideration, while "every sign of unjust discrimination is to be carefully avoided."
I wish the legislature of Mississippi, which just passed a law allowing discrimination against LGBT people, would do what is right and fair instead of doing what only the mean-spirited and ignorant want.
I wish the legislature of Mississippi, which just passed a law allowing discrimination against LGBT people, would do what is right and fair instead of doing what only the mean-spirited and ignorant want.
6
Yeah, but the Pope used the qualifier word, "unjust" discrimination. What does that mean? One person's "unjust" is another person's "just." Not very helpful, and another indication that the statement is all smoke and mirrors.
5
Another papal exhortation in...hypocrisy.
“The Joy of Love” — calls for priests to welcome single parents, gay people, etc."
But NOT too much because --
“there are absolutely no grounds for considering homosexual unions to be in any way similar remotely analogous to God’s plan for marriage and family.”
Thos crazy gays just are not fully human.
“The Joy of Love” — calls for priests to welcome single parents, gay people, etc."
But NOT too much because --
“there are absolutely no grounds for considering homosexual unions to be in any way similar remotely analogous to God’s plan for marriage and family.”
Thos crazy gays just are not fully human.
12
Can't help but feel that HE who is willing to forgive "seventy times seven" those who commit an intrinsically sinful act would deny the benefit of His eucharist from someone who makes a human error in the intrinsically good act of marriage.
2
Life-long celibate Argentinian of Italian extraction issues--let's call it a proclamation--that divorced Catholics may--MAY--be eligible to swallow whole a tasteless wafer that is actually the body of a mythical being thought by many to be the son of an equally mythical being.
Also: breaking stories in astrology, phrenology and alchemy followed by our latest economic projections and predictions of which team will win the World Series.
Back to you in the (former) newsroom.
Also: breaking stories in astrology, phrenology and alchemy followed by our latest economic projections and predictions of which team will win the World Series.
Back to you in the (former) newsroom.
6
But we're the intelligent animal.
The "Clever Pope" - making sure Catholicism survives the modern times; without making any actual change.
20
It is disheartening to realize that communion, a simple symbol of "do this in memory of me", has turned into a test of one's purity in the eyes of the Catholic Church. One can only imagine how the organization of catholic church has used or rather mis-used this symbol. Jesus placed no caveats or clauses when he said those words. He just wanted everyone to gather together in his name and celebrate community. Now we have to "show" purity, why? In fact the Catholic Church demands that a process be followed. A process which requires one to not eat an hour before taking communion and it is a mortal sin to receive communion without a "clean" heart. Whatever that means? It all boils down to controlling the masses. One more reason to denounce the Catholic Church and follow the true direction of the Bible without the ruling of some obscure Italians.
5
Pope Francis is refreshing, thank goodness. I'm a Jewish lesbian who lives in a more liberal area of NC for now - I want to leave the state but I may not be able to afford to.
Prior to reading this article, I've been very much concerned that everything I marched for in my younger years and all the work I did to obtain equal rights and domestic partnership benefits at three Fortune 100 - 500 companies was going down the drain in front of me. McCory, the NC governor I'd like to see impeached for his dirty politics, is negating so many of us - don't be fooled, it is a bill that allows discrimination based on sexual orientation. Just this morning, a contractor came to our house for enough work to line his pockets. In our email exchanges, he was fine. But I was concerned that he was either incompetent (I knew more about the work than he did) or a bigot and I'm strongly leaning towards the latter. It was not a pleasant experience dealing with a guy who said some really stupid things about the work to be done. As he left, my partner signed the word "weird." She saw it, too.
Then I read this lovely article in the NYT about Pope Francis. From the same Jewish lesbian who had very likely been discriminated against, I breathed a sigh of relief. It doesn't change my life but it made me feel like the Catholic Church just did what few members of the GOP will or can do, welcomed us and others with open arms. What a man.
Prior to reading this article, I've been very much concerned that everything I marched for in my younger years and all the work I did to obtain equal rights and domestic partnership benefits at three Fortune 100 - 500 companies was going down the drain in front of me. McCory, the NC governor I'd like to see impeached for his dirty politics, is negating so many of us - don't be fooled, it is a bill that allows discrimination based on sexual orientation. Just this morning, a contractor came to our house for enough work to line his pockets. In our email exchanges, he was fine. But I was concerned that he was either incompetent (I knew more about the work than he did) or a bigot and I'm strongly leaning towards the latter. It was not a pleasant experience dealing with a guy who said some really stupid things about the work to be done. As he left, my partner signed the word "weird." She saw it, too.
Then I read this lovely article in the NYT about Pope Francis. From the same Jewish lesbian who had very likely been discriminated against, I breathed a sigh of relief. It doesn't change my life but it made me feel like the Catholic Church just did what few members of the GOP will or can do, welcomed us and others with open arms. What a man.
5
The Copernican information bomb that has been dropped on the Vatican, Islam and all the "virgin birth" Abrahamic religions as well as similar religions of the "Global South" is not same-sex relationships per se, it's that paternity is now as inexpensively provable as maternity for the first time in world history.
The original "virgin birth" Cult of ISIS, on which these religions were founded, has a had a 2000 year run of institutionalizing all sorts of problems. These can now all be prevented in the future, as well as their perpetrators held accountable.
The original "virgin birth" Cult of ISIS, on which these religions were founded, has a had a 2000 year run of institutionalizing all sorts of problems. These can now all be prevented in the future, as well as their perpetrators held accountable.
4
Like all businesses the business of selling the concept of GOD should be taxed. Anyways it's a false product. NYT should stop giving legitimacy to this business by printing about them on the front page. I refuse to buy this product!
15
When I got married in my wife's NYC Presbyterian church, no one asked me what my marital history was, or about my religious background. Any discussions of birth control at the church would have been seen as a bizarre statement. The pastor even asked us how comfortable we were with references to Christ during the wedding service. Then we got married before our family and friends, and God. Simple.
What a breath of fresh air that was in the sphere of organized religion. There's more to connecting with the divine than demonstrating compliance with a lifestyle doctrine. At least the change in this manifesto, while feeble, may be a step in the right direction.
What a breath of fresh air that was in the sphere of organized religion. There's more to connecting with the divine than demonstrating compliance with a lifestyle doctrine. At least the change in this manifesto, while feeble, may be a step in the right direction.
15
I like Pope Francis, deep down he is a good person and much more realistic about the world than his predecessors. But when I look at the church hierarchy, particularly the college of cardinals, I see too many fossilized old men - mostly white - who have no idea what it's like to raise a family. They have no idea what it's like to be a woman caught in an abusive marriage or a woman for whom pregnancy is a health risk or economically impossible. They are more concerned with holding onto power and dictating behavior from the walls behind the Vatican. Catholics in the US have already figured out that annulments are just a money-making scheme and that no human being has any right to deny anyone the sacraments of God.
20
When I read this, the scene that popped into my head is the scene from My Cousin Vinny, where the expert witness whose opinion has been completely refuted is called back to the stand. When asked directly if his opinion has been changed, the expert hesitates. Vinny says:
"It's okay, go ahead and say it, they know."
Francis, we know that gay marriage is ok. We know that contraception has been hugely beneficial for health, happiness, for women's rights. We know that sometimes divorce happens and it's the best thing for all involved.
This was a good change but not far enough.
"It's okay, go ahead and say it, they know."
Francis, we know that gay marriage is ok. We know that contraception has been hugely beneficial for health, happiness, for women's rights. We know that sometimes divorce happens and it's the best thing for all involved.
This was a good change but not far enough.
17
The idea that anyone would look to the Roman Catholic Church for moral guidance on anything -- especially sexual matters! -- is ludicrous.
Before you accept someone's wisdom, the first questions to ask yourself is: Are they wise? And a good guide to that answer is to look at their actions. Has the Catholic Church shown wisdom in sexual matters? Take a look.
Before you accept someone's wisdom, the first questions to ask yourself is: Are they wise? And a good guide to that answer is to look at their actions. Has the Catholic Church shown wisdom in sexual matters? Take a look.
29
More welcoming and less judgemental? Good luck with that!
6
Another papal exhortation in...hypocrisy.
“The Joy of Love” — calls for priests to welcome single parents, gay people and unmarried straight couples who are living together.
But the Church does not want to welcome LGBT too much so because --
“there are absolutely no grounds for considering homosexual unions to be in any way similar remotely analogous to God’s plan for marriage and family.”
“The Joy of Love” — calls for priests to welcome single parents, gay people and unmarried straight couples who are living together.
But the Church does not want to welcome LGBT too much so because --
“there are absolutely no grounds for considering homosexual unions to be in any way similar remotely analogous to God’s plan for marriage and family.”
15
He can't get his own house in order, but he wants to inject his influence into our presidential election by inviting Bernie Sanders to the Vatican. That is totally ridiculous. I guess we'll be invading Vatican City next.
9
The Pope's statement: "No one is condemned forever", clearly means that all human beings will eventually be saved. This doctrine of universal salvation was indirectly promulgated In Vatican II, and is radical, deserving wide attention.:
8
You make a terrible mistake, no human being will ever be saved or condemned, it is the higher self, the other self, the soul or whatever you want to call it that will be 'reviewed'.
1
Without changes in doctrine, or fundamental revision in the structure of a church that denies priesthood to women, forbids priests to marry, and considers gay marriage a "sin," what is the point of any of this? It's all talk. And every time it's done, it's salt on old wounds for people who have suffered exactly because this church refuses to change in any real way, and consistently resists acknowledging the damage it's done and continues to do.
Look at how much time and work was required before the Catholic Church grudgingly admitted wrongdoing in its vast network of pedophilia. We're still waiting for criminal prosecutions that are long overdue. And we haven't even begun to scratch the surface of deeply-rooted damage done to girls who absorb the meaning of a structure designed to make them feel inferior.
"Empathy" and "comfort" don't emanate from words alone. Without structural and doctrinal change, the words are empty and blow away, accomplishing nothing really, except a reminder that damage goes on. Now. This minute.
Look at how much time and work was required before the Catholic Church grudgingly admitted wrongdoing in its vast network of pedophilia. We're still waiting for criminal prosecutions that are long overdue. And we haven't even begun to scratch the surface of deeply-rooted damage done to girls who absorb the meaning of a structure designed to make them feel inferior.
"Empathy" and "comfort" don't emanate from words alone. Without structural and doctrinal change, the words are empty and blow away, accomplishing nothing really, except a reminder that damage goes on. Now. This minute.
60
It is God that...considers gay marriage a "sin,"not a specific church. That is just a fact from the Bible. You do not have to believe in God or the Bible it is a choice. God also love ALL,period end of statement. If your "really" interested go to Amazon and take a look at this book"Messy Grace"How A Pastor With Gay Parents Learned to Love Others Without Sacrificing Conviction
Take care
Take care
1
Thank you, Pope Francis! God bless you for your emphasis on Mercy! You are a living embodiment of the Gospel (Good News). You are living up to the Name Francis - a saint of Love and Mercy.
May the Pope's message of Mercy and concern for the least among us inspire all governments to promote laws which punish those who hide assets or resist paying their fair share in the form of taxes. May all who serve, serve the Common Good.
There is enough hidden money to feed and house and cloth every person on this planet. There is enough to save the environment. To cure or treat the sick. To comfort the dying. To mitigate inequality and educate youth.
How can we deny that we humans are all related? All equal. All brothers and sisters across this ever-smaller planet - our only home.
Let each of us do what we can to further these worthy goals.
May the Pope's message of Mercy and concern for the least among us inspire all governments to promote laws which punish those who hide assets or resist paying their fair share in the form of taxes. May all who serve, serve the Common Good.
There is enough hidden money to feed and house and cloth every person on this planet. There is enough to save the environment. To cure or treat the sick. To comfort the dying. To mitigate inequality and educate youth.
How can we deny that we humans are all related? All equal. All brothers and sisters across this ever-smaller planet - our only home.
Let each of us do what we can to further these worthy goals.
6
Human sexuality is, above all, experiential. You can philosophize, psycho-analyze, and theologize about it, or you can politicize it, but first…you gotta do it.
For the most part, the Catholic Church is run by men who have never “done it”, or “did it” and thought it was a sin. They are men who have never experienced their own sexuality in any positive way, and in their professional lives, see sexuality as an obstacle to overcome.
As someone who is 65 and grew up a Roman Catholic, it has always seemed a symptom of institutional neurosis that these same men insist on telling everyone else what sexuality and intimacy are.
It has been my experience that their “callings from God” for a priestly celibacy are frequently smoke screens concealing personality disorder, sexual dysfunction, fear of intimacy, and outright power trips. The police blotters in North America, Europe and Australia detailing child abuse tend to confirm that experience.
Alternatively, as a former “altar boy” who can still recite the “Our Father” in Latin, the following phrase has been spoken often in my lifetime, usually with an Italian accent, but also in a Polish and now a Spanish variation:
“No playa da game, no make’a da rules.”
However, the tact of this Pope is, admittedly, an improvement over my own past experience with “the One, True Religion” and its delusions of infallibility.
For the most part, the Catholic Church is run by men who have never “done it”, or “did it” and thought it was a sin. They are men who have never experienced their own sexuality in any positive way, and in their professional lives, see sexuality as an obstacle to overcome.
As someone who is 65 and grew up a Roman Catholic, it has always seemed a symptom of institutional neurosis that these same men insist on telling everyone else what sexuality and intimacy are.
It has been my experience that their “callings from God” for a priestly celibacy are frequently smoke screens concealing personality disorder, sexual dysfunction, fear of intimacy, and outright power trips. The police blotters in North America, Europe and Australia detailing child abuse tend to confirm that experience.
Alternatively, as a former “altar boy” who can still recite the “Our Father” in Latin, the following phrase has been spoken often in my lifetime, usually with an Italian accent, but also in a Polish and now a Spanish variation:
“No playa da game, no make’a da rules.”
However, the tact of this Pope is, admittedly, an improvement over my own past experience with “the One, True Religion” and its delusions of infallibility.
9
I detest all organized religion, but the Pope is at least trying. This is institutionalized evil he's dealing with. I just hope he has a food taster.
7
Regarding the viewpoint of the more "conservative" Catholics...I was under the impression that in matters of faith, the Pope was "Infallable"? Doesn't that mean what he is saying comes straight from the horse's mouth, so to speak? How are they able to question it?
3
No. He's only infallible when I agree with him.
3
The pope is only infallible under very specific circumstance. Infallibility has only ever been invoked a few times. This time, the Pope is using a document of lesser authority (an Apostolic Exhortation is not an infallible statement, and is assumed to carry lesser weight than an Encyclical, for example) to give increased scope for discussion. It is basically his view on the synod and a call to the church but not actual doctrine.
3
No, it doesn't work that way. Skipping the details, the Pope only pulls his infallibility card for certain things. Popes issue proclamations like this all the time without invoking infallibility.
3
About all humans can know for sure is...we don't know for sure. We get glimpses of great meaning in this life, and we need to take care to not misinterpret our human beliefs and feelings for "god's will." Given that, if we choose to believe in God, the best we can do is take Jesus's admonition to heart that we judge something by its fruits. Murder: clearly some bad fruits. Charity: clearly pretty good fruits. Divorce, gay marriage, contraception: well, I struggle to find the bad fruits in those things unless they are abused or warped (which can be said for nearly any good thing in this world). All of this is to say: I care very little what the pope, a host of bishops, or my fellow Americans believe about these issues, as long as they do not cross over into legislating other people's behavior with civil law. Sometimes people get so wrapped up trying to police others. I hope one day we all meet our maker and find out: guys, you spent a lot of time and caused a lot of pain worrying about something that really wasn't a big deal.
4
All these people and institutions ….claiming to speak for god, and with god, and through god. And we fall for it! They tell us that we must listen, and follow, and obey. They claim a direct pipeline to the almighty! God did this, God loves that. God wrote this. God said this. God hates this. God wants this. Oh, and drop another coin in the basket before you leave please ...as god demands.
BULLETIN! There is no expert on your life - it’s YOUR life, the only one you’ll ever have. Don’t live your short precious life according to someone else’s rules, through someone else’s eyes. For ultimately YOU are responsible for your life, and how you try to live it. That’s why you have freedom of choice and a conscience and a mind — to choose, NOT just to blindly follow, not just to live by the pre-packaged choices of others, not just to live a living death.
Enough.
Get off your knees! Stand up like the proud Men and Women that you truly are, and choose to live your own lives fully and freely, in your own ways. Walk tall on your own path - with your own meanings and mistakes and methods. Break the chains of dependency and religion, and breathe the fresh and healing air of freedom.
Deeply. Fully. Finally.
BULLETIN! There is no expert on your life - it’s YOUR life, the only one you’ll ever have. Don’t live your short precious life according to someone else’s rules, through someone else’s eyes. For ultimately YOU are responsible for your life, and how you try to live it. That’s why you have freedom of choice and a conscience and a mind — to choose, NOT just to blindly follow, not just to live by the pre-packaged choices of others, not just to live a living death.
Enough.
Get off your knees! Stand up like the proud Men and Women that you truly are, and choose to live your own lives fully and freely, in your own ways. Walk tall on your own path - with your own meanings and mistakes and methods. Break the chains of dependency and religion, and breathe the fresh and healing air of freedom.
Deeply. Fully. Finally.
16
Agree with every word. I can't write it in better words. Be Free and live Freely ...
8
Being Catholic is a choice. Why would anybody who is pro-choice and believes in equal rights for women, in gay rights, in women having access to contraception even be a Catholic? It makes no sense. And what particularly makes no sense is that so many Democrats attend and support the Catholic church. The Catholic church is way more repressive than any evangelical church, yet Democrats condemn evangelicals.
I support the right of people to believe what they want, but why would anyone who believes in what I stated above even belong to the Catholic church?
And the whole "annulment" thing is beyond ridiculous.
I support the right of people to believe what they want, but why would anyone who believes in what I stated above even belong to the Catholic church?
And the whole "annulment" thing is beyond ridiculous.
11
I can give you some of the "why" some of us liberals are also Catholics. Because it is our Church: the Church of our ancestors. Our grandmothers and our grandfathers of our parents, and generations so long gone that their names are lost to history. Being Catholic is as much a cultural identity as it is a religious one. For example I am very liberal and still consider myself a Catholic. The way I reconcile some of my disagreements with dogma of the Church is that I believe that the church belongs to the body of Christ I.e., the laity, as much or more than the Bishops and the guys in the Red Hats (Cardinals). I think the body of Christ has spoken very clearly on issues of birth control and abortion (it's necessary), etcetera. So, at the end of the day, it doesn't matter what the Pope says about it.
13
Irish Catholic Democrat...
"The Catholic church is way more repressive than any evangelical church, yet Democrats condemn evangelicals."
I would also take issue with this sentence -- I don't think the first or the second part of it is true.
"The Catholic church is way more repressive than any evangelical church, yet Democrats condemn evangelicals."
I would also take issue with this sentence -- I don't think the first or the second part of it is true.
1
as an atheist married to a catholic, it is hard for me to square the concept of a loving and forgiving god with one who would forbid those who have "sinned" from to receive the love of the church. This description of the Popes words sounds to me as if he is addressing the tone the church should take with those who may fall short of the church laws. Is it so painful to the church conservatives to allow final judgement of ones life to be in the hands of god rather than the laws of man? it seems o me the is only asking those in the church to actually love the sinners, not toss them out on the street.
1
Let priests marry and have families and then the RCC will have some credibility on these matters. We will take Francis's work in moving the conversation forward but until priests and the hierarchy live these family situations, they will never have the experience necessary to 'rule' on them if you will. Allowing priests to marry would also normalize the Church's views on sexuality, women, and marriage equality and bring them into the modern era. I hope it will all happen in my lifetime, the joy of love is right, all love.
3
I read a comment that compared Francis to a Talmudic scholar parsing out meaning from (supposedly) obscure documents. Oh were it so, it really is more like reading tea leaves- who from where is exerting influence to what degree. For a man desperately wanting to cultivate a common touch his ministry to the developed wolds Catholics is very strange. Homosexuality is really a non issue in most respects but he seems to devote to it inordinate time and energy. Divorced Catholics who feel marginalized constitute and even smaller fraction of the faithful. Their concerns are being resolved in a timely and sensitive manner every day in every parish- codifying it is counterproductive The fact is no faith offers for them, homosexuals and even non Catholics a more robust experience of the reality of Jesus Christ in the lives of men (and women). What the world waits for is a doctrinal explanation of the Christian response to an Islam whose militarized doxology is in full flower and unapologetic in it's intention to subsume all others. If he says nothing much longer it will rightly be taken as acquiescence to a faith which considers it's self exclusively not just the only "true" believers but the only "true" Christians and Jews as well.
The secondary and much easier tea leaf reading was the consideration of which author of this piece was responsible for what. Unless the more senior of the pair has had a conversion experience I believe it is the work product of the junior....well done
The secondary and much easier tea leaf reading was the consideration of which author of this piece was responsible for what. Unless the more senior of the pair has had a conversion experience I believe it is the work product of the junior....well done
2
Spirituality and religious communities are valuable but millions of people looking to one man for absolute rules on how to govern their personal relationships and reproductive choices is absurd.
3
If one God-turned-man can change the course of humanity by His teachings, it is also possible for one man of God to follow through however slowly.
Some of the comments here are in very poor taste. The simple fact is the RCC is in the business of saving souls, not being popular. I wonder how many here who are so caviler in their criticism of the RCC will be so brave against many of the same policies under Islam. Fortunately will have freedom of Religion, freedom of speech, and the Freedom to be cowardly.
6
Yes and there's nothing more cowardly than a supposed man of God raping a child in the church rectory. Inserting Islam into the discussion is unnecessary. Two wrongs don't make a right.
2
To me, the simple fact is the RCC is in the business of increasing their revenues, raping young children, covering up said rapes, sanctimoniously telling people how to live their lives, keeping access to reproductive health away from women and families, and ranting against gay and LGBT folks. That's for starters. Poor taste? The poor taste is the RCC's inhumane, uncivil stance towards human beings.
2
i don''t care about this stuff. he seems like a nice man, this pope. i just wish he would talk more about soccer. and, maybe make an appearence at a soccer match. my religion is my private matter. i don't scorn andres serrano for putting the cruxifix in urine. i will make my own art, showing the cross without the image of Jesus. It will be personal, colorful, and it will be art. as for cesar's world, i'm not to much involved with that. i will challenge him as zoolander challenged hansel. i'm a little concerned over the new format on dancing with the stars. so, i don't like change there. i don't wanna see dudes dancing with each other. nor babes. so, for us christians, we can learn from those outside the church. len and bruno, hmmm, you guys need to unite. carrie anne, you go girl....
May God protect Papa Francisco! You are a beautiful pope. We love you!
7
My wife and I will celebrate our 25th wedding anniversary in a little over 2 months. Catholic, she has not taken communion since the last mass she attended prior to our wedding. Church of Christ by upbringing, baptized at 13, and atheist by 25, with a marriage and divorce behind me, she still chose me over her church. One of the few things the Catholic Church and the Church of Christ have in common is the way they ostracize the divorced by denying them communion. From my perspective, our marriage changed nothing for me in any religious sense. Not so for my wife.
In the early years we went to mass on the Sundays when we drove to her home town to have Sunday dinner at her mother's or the home of one of her brothers or sisters. At the start, I asked her why she did not walk the aisle to front of the church with the rest of the congregation; it was a sin to do so, she said. About the only masses we attend any more are the funerals of her family and friends, and the rare Easter or Christmas service. (Indeed, the only times we warm a Church of Christ pew is for a funeral.) Now, she does walk the aisle with the rest of the congregation but declines the host and asks only for the priest's blessing.
From the wording of this article (I have no plans to read Amoris Laetitia), I believe my wife's situation regarding being allowed communion is unchanged by this proclamation. My gain has been the Catholic Church's loss. A sort of amputation of one's own nose to spite the face.
In the early years we went to mass on the Sundays when we drove to her home town to have Sunday dinner at her mother's or the home of one of her brothers or sisters. At the start, I asked her why she did not walk the aisle to front of the church with the rest of the congregation; it was a sin to do so, she said. About the only masses we attend any more are the funerals of her family and friends, and the rare Easter or Christmas service. (Indeed, the only times we warm a Church of Christ pew is for a funeral.) Now, she does walk the aisle with the rest of the congregation but declines the host and asks only for the priest's blessing.
From the wording of this article (I have no plans to read Amoris Laetitia), I believe my wife's situation regarding being allowed communion is unchanged by this proclamation. My gain has been the Catholic Church's loss. A sort of amputation of one's own nose to spite the face.
5
I think Pope Francis is trying to bring the Church back to the teachings of Christ.
There is a progression of thought and philosophy from the Old to the New Testament according to Jesus. He abandoned much of the unforgiving harshness of the Old Testament.
Jesus overturned the Old Law of 'an eye for an eye' with 'turn the other cheek.'
When a mob asked him whether they should stone an adulteress to death, which the Old Law considered a capital offense, Jesus said 'Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.'
Most people today do not give a thought to eating bacon or shrimp or other dietary restriction named in Leviticus, nor do they perpetrate animal sacrifices dictated in Leviticus, yet some will still cite Leviticus when it fits their bias.
The teachings of Jesus were beautiful and radical. He exhorted his followers to treat others as they would like to be treated, to love God with all your heart, and leave judgement to God.
If Christians followed the teachings of Jesus the world would be a better place.
It is notable still in this day and age that people will cite a line of text from the Bible to support discrimination of LGBT people in their businesses, just like they used the Bible to support segregated bathrooms for whites and "colored" people and slavery.
It is shameless for people to use religious freedom as a cover for discrimination and bigotry.
Pope Francis is moving the Church in the right direction, however slowly.
There is a progression of thought and philosophy from the Old to the New Testament according to Jesus. He abandoned much of the unforgiving harshness of the Old Testament.
Jesus overturned the Old Law of 'an eye for an eye' with 'turn the other cheek.'
When a mob asked him whether they should stone an adulteress to death, which the Old Law considered a capital offense, Jesus said 'Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.'
Most people today do not give a thought to eating bacon or shrimp or other dietary restriction named in Leviticus, nor do they perpetrate animal sacrifices dictated in Leviticus, yet some will still cite Leviticus when it fits their bias.
The teachings of Jesus were beautiful and radical. He exhorted his followers to treat others as they would like to be treated, to love God with all your heart, and leave judgement to God.
If Christians followed the teachings of Jesus the world would be a better place.
It is notable still in this day and age that people will cite a line of text from the Bible to support discrimination of LGBT people in their businesses, just like they used the Bible to support segregated bathrooms for whites and "colored" people and slavery.
It is shameless for people to use religious freedom as a cover for discrimination and bigotry.
Pope Francis is moving the Church in the right direction, however slowly.
11
Thank God.
Not a Catholic, not a conventional Christian, but in many ways the Catholic Church is too beautiful to wither away. Yes, there are many horrid wrongs to be addressed, but give this humane Pope time. May he live a long, long life.
Not a Catholic, not a conventional Christian, but in many ways the Catholic Church is too beautiful to wither away. Yes, there are many horrid wrongs to be addressed, but give this humane Pope time. May he live a long, long life.
6
Jesus taught that we are all children of God....ALL! Pope Francis states: "there are absolutely no grounds for considering homosexual unions to be in any way similar remotely analogous to God's plan for marriage and family." I would like to know where in the New Testament, which consists of the teachings of Jesus Christ, the Pope finds any teaching that would result in the establishment of a fabulously wealthy and powerful religious organization of men, appointed by men, who dictate "God's plan" to rest of humankind?
5
Paul is explicit on the subject so If you need Christ to sanctify your marriage your outta luck. On the other hand you do indeed qualify as "these the least of my brothers" so I would sooner do ill to Christ than you.....and no it doesn't mean baking your wedding cake- it would mean making of one you a pale imitation of the sex you are not. I will choose instead to recognize your wonderfullness as two complete men or women who are gay.
Dear Mr. i'mOnTheRight, Those of us who are not Catholic do not need Paul, however explicit he may be, in order to be sanctified by Christ, which was largely my point. Further, you seem to make some unwarranted assumptions. While I appreciate your kind words, I have been happily married to the same woman for 44 years. I simply believe that as children of God, my homosexual sisters and brothers are as worthy of God's all encompassing love as i am.
1
The Catholic Church is what it is. Many of its teachings are the rules it has made up over the years along with the way it interprets the bible, in fact the bible it put together. If you are a christian you do not need a priest or the Pope to give you a blessed life, just treat others as you would like to be treated and do not judge others.
7
Can someone tell me where in the Bible it says that the church should be run by and Christianity should be defied by celibate men?
12
I am certain that same-sex marriages can be performed in civil courts where permitted by law; they cannot be ratified by the Sacrament of Matrimony as recognized by the Roman Catholic Church.
Under Canon Law, civil marriages are not "valid" for practicing Catholics; therefore, any same sex couples can legitimately believe they are married under civil law, but remain unmarried for the purpose of being Catholics who are merely cohabitating.
Cohabitation is not "sinful" for anyone; adultery is. I see no "sin" in same-sex unions.
Under Canon Law, civil marriages are not "valid" for practicing Catholics; therefore, any same sex couples can legitimately believe they are married under civil law, but remain unmarried for the purpose of being Catholics who are merely cohabitating.
Cohabitation is not "sinful" for anyone; adultery is. I see no "sin" in same-sex unions.
8
It's always so odd to read Roman Catholic doctrine on gay people when so many priests are homosexual. Until the that church abandons its antiquated stance on clerical celibacy, it cannot even truly make sound judgments about heterosexual relationships.
The Bishop of Rome's tolerant tone notwithstanding, the church he guides remains mired in the Dark Ages of oppression when it comes to issues of sexuality.
The Bishop of Rome's tolerant tone notwithstanding, the church he guides remains mired in the Dark Ages of oppression when it comes to issues of sexuality.
24
Oh, how I wish that organized religions would just go away and leave us all be spiritual in our own ways. Or at least stay out of politics. And if they can't stay out of politics they should at least be taxed.
I like Pope Francis so much. He's done much to restore my faith in the goodness of people. But he has not persuaded me to discard my feelings on how much damage organized religion - all over the world - has done to our species. I'm beginning to believe that it's a mental illness. A delusional belief in an Iron Age sky fairy. The myths are just that. They are not real. And yet we are all so affected in our societies by them. I find it really sad and not uplifting or helpful at all.
I like Pope Francis so much. He's done much to restore my faith in the goodness of people. But he has not persuaded me to discard my feelings on how much damage organized religion - all over the world - has done to our species. I'm beginning to believe that it's a mental illness. A delusional belief in an Iron Age sky fairy. The myths are just that. They are not real. And yet we are all so affected in our societies by them. I find it really sad and not uplifting or helpful at all.
4
Why do we afford this man, who lives in a multi-billion dollar palace, is prohibited from having a real family, and who presumes to speak for another man (nothing more) who had no progeny (as far as we know) and lived a very long time ago, ANY shred of authority on how we should run our lives and our families today?
13
Pope Francis does not live in a multi-billion dollar palace but rather a simple residence. This is one of the many reasons so many Catholics love him as he lives modestly and mingles with the lowly and poor. He is a wonderful example and more of us should follow in his footsteps.
2
You don't have to. The message of Jesus is about love for all and the understanding that we are only as strong as the weakest in our society. Its a message of moving toward honesty and love (which benefits us all) over ego and greed (which creates violence and hatred)
How you follow that path is entirely up to you. Some people choose the Catholic Church as their path.
How you follow that path is entirely up to you. Some people choose the Catholic Church as their path.
5
"Why do we afford this man, who lives in a multi-billion dollar palace ..."
-------
He doesn't live in a palace. He has a simple room in the Casa Santa Marta. Look it up. You should learn a bit before you comment ...
-------
He doesn't live in a palace. He has a simple room in the Casa Santa Marta. Look it up. You should learn a bit before you comment ...
6
While of course I'd rather see the Pope doing far, far more, I do look forward to the gladsome moment when the shabby likes of Pat Robertson, Falwell Jr, and Liberty University come up with something one-quarter as decent.
5
So theologian and First Things editor R. R. Reno laments Francis' attempt to substitute the church’s “rules and laws and requirements” with “talk about ideals and values.”
Sounds rather strikingly similar to the Gospel accounts of the Pharisees' condemnation of Jesus' teachings.
Sounds rather strikingly similar to the Gospel accounts of the Pharisees' condemnation of Jesus' teachings.
5
Catholic schools in my area have fired gay teachers and refused to announce gay marriage in alumni periodicals. Hopefully, the pope's announcement will allow openly gay and married workers to stay not only employed, but respected in ALL Catholic institutions--not just the progressive ones.
The pope needs to address the explicit misogyny in the church when it refuses to allow women priests. How can anyone be a Catholic and raise a daughter and tell her she could not be a priest or a pope?
Also, a huge archaic rule will not allow priest to marry. This needs to change.
The pope has a good message. Hopefully, it's just a start.
The pope needs to address the explicit misogyny in the church when it refuses to allow women priests. How can anyone be a Catholic and raise a daughter and tell her she could not be a priest or a pope?
Also, a huge archaic rule will not allow priest to marry. This needs to change.
The pope has a good message. Hopefully, it's just a start.
8
When these gay teachers joined the Catholic schools, they were aware of the teachings of the Church. They were not forced to find employment here and could just have easily taught in the public schools. There are no rules as to lifestyle in public schools and should have sought work there.
3
KMW: right, but doesn't the pope's new message change that?
I am unclear if the pope's message actually changes what Catholic schools do when hiring firing married gays? The meanness and idiocy stays in the church law that gay marriage is a sin, but now the pope says: yeah, but be nice. What does that mean in terms of hiring and firing in practice? How does his play nice message change anything? Right leaning Catholic institutions will still point to archaic dogma to justify discrimination. These people don't like the new pope anyways.
I am unclear if the pope's message actually changes what Catholic schools do when hiring firing married gays? The meanness and idiocy stays in the church law that gay marriage is a sin, but now the pope says: yeah, but be nice. What does that mean in terms of hiring and firing in practice? How does his play nice message change anything? Right leaning Catholic institutions will still point to archaic dogma to justify discrimination. These people don't like the new pope anyways.
Jesus Christ Himself Identified with sinners. “Why do you call Me Good? No man is good but God Alone,’ (Mark 10:18). “No one can come to Me unless the Father Who Sent Me draws him.”(John 6:44).”He who comes to Me, I Will Not Cast out.” (John 6:37). The Church is a hospital for sinners, not a club for saints. The Church should not practice Pharisaism.
11
Not buying it.
Instead, I witness for a wonderful young gay woman who killed herself - raised in the bosom of a strictly observant Catholic family, in the dark shadow of her parish church, in the shame of not being able to speak her truth - a wonderful young woman who has been cold in her grave almost two years now.
Sticking your institutional nose in other people's private lives, in other people's bedrooms - that's what I call the HEIGHT of *irregular*!
Time to *close the door* on this Catholic nonsense.
Instead, I witness for a wonderful young gay woman who killed herself - raised in the bosom of a strictly observant Catholic family, in the dark shadow of her parish church, in the shame of not being able to speak her truth - a wonderful young woman who has been cold in her grave almost two years now.
Sticking your institutional nose in other people's private lives, in other people's bedrooms - that's what I call the HEIGHT of *irregular*!
Time to *close the door* on this Catholic nonsense.
17
And this Muslim nonsense as well.
Actually I think your comment is hateful and short sighted. I find that people who hate the Catholic Church for its anti-gay stance are more than accepting of a political candidate (who stated as late as 2010 that marriage is between a man and a woman and who spoke highly very recently lauding the Reagan's on their non action around AIDS) to "evolve" on the subject, but a religious organization cannot.
Fact is this Pope is moving the Catholic Church back to its mission of love for all, championing the rights of the most disadvantages in our society and against the rampant consumerism which is killing our society and our planet.
Time to give him a chance.
Actually I think your comment is hateful and short sighted. I find that people who hate the Catholic Church for its anti-gay stance are more than accepting of a political candidate (who stated as late as 2010 that marriage is between a man and a woman and who spoke highly very recently lauding the Reagan's on their non action around AIDS) to "evolve" on the subject, but a religious organization cannot.
Fact is this Pope is moving the Catholic Church back to its mission of love for all, championing the rights of the most disadvantages in our society and against the rampant consumerism which is killing our society and our planet.
Time to give him a chance.
4
This is such a slow process, slower than our melting glaciers, and it is possible they will be gone before the Church is changed in its essence. But Francis is doing his utmost to make the official Church human, to remind the old men who have run it that they should be in touch with average people and their struggles, and that self-righteousness is not Christian.
Even for all of us who do not believe, this is important because it influences millions of Catholics worldwide. How many world leaders with a bully pulpit, other than the Dalai Lama, are promoting compassion?
Even for all of us who do not believe, this is important because it influences millions of Catholics worldwide. How many world leaders with a bully pulpit, other than the Dalai Lama, are promoting compassion?
15
I think the Dalai Lama described his "simple religion" in one word: Compassion.
Why is it so hard for the Catholic Church to change its archaic ways when Jesus preached compassion, mercy, and love for all?
I'm a "Recovering Catholic". I realized long ago the church had nothing to offer me. That's a shame for families and all people trying to find some simple guidance, and yes, compassion, in their churches. For if it can't be found in a church, then where?
As long as the church clings to its inane rules - on celibacy, the narrow role of women in the church, alienation of the LGBT community and intolerance of same-sex marriage - people will continue to be disillusioned with the one place, above all others, where they could always hope to find comfort.
Jesus is weeping.
Why is it so hard for the Catholic Church to change its archaic ways when Jesus preached compassion, mercy, and love for all?
I'm a "Recovering Catholic". I realized long ago the church had nothing to offer me. That's a shame for families and all people trying to find some simple guidance, and yes, compassion, in their churches. For if it can't be found in a church, then where?
As long as the church clings to its inane rules - on celibacy, the narrow role of women in the church, alienation of the LGBT community and intolerance of same-sex marriage - people will continue to be disillusioned with the one place, above all others, where they could always hope to find comfort.
Jesus is weeping.
2
If the local priest doesn't welcome you to the church, go anyway. If the priest doesn't want you to go to communion, go anyway. The faith is between the parishioner and God, not the local priest.
8
This is a step in the right direction and he is a humble man who admits that even he, in his position, is a mortal human. I just have to wonder though, why those who eschew married life, vow celibacy, and have no family of their own are in any position to be considered a credible authority on human sexuality and family relationships?
5
In a matter of similar import a statue of Elvis has definitely been spotted on Mars.
3
Sad reflection on the Catholic Church of today. Everything he
mentions could have been found already in the teachings of the Church.
Just another pablum, watered down group hug. I'm OK, You're OK.
But hey, one can develop his or her own conscience by just breathing and becoming more aware of the rumblings in one's gut. And we all get to heaven...(with no capital). Nothing to look at here....move on.
Thanks Vatican II and the Masonic travelers. One more step towards heaven on earth.
mentions could have been found already in the teachings of the Church.
Just another pablum, watered down group hug. I'm OK, You're OK.
But hey, one can develop his or her own conscience by just breathing and becoming more aware of the rumblings in one's gut. And we all get to heaven...(with no capital). Nothing to look at here....move on.
Thanks Vatican II and the Masonic travelers. One more step towards heaven on earth.
Moses killed an Egyptian and hid his body in the sand. David sent Uriah to his death because he wanted Bathsheba, Uriah's wife. Paul watched the clothes of those who were stoning Stephen. Mary Magdalene was a woman of ill repute, but according to some of the Gospels, was one of the first to see the resurrected Jesus. But, if a man or a woman in an abusive relationship that stands as an immovable impediment to their spiritual growth divorces the other, they can't fully participate in the life of their Church? I've never understood the obvious disconnect between a forgiving God and a condemning Church. And, I never will.
5
ok...the door is at least a jar for divorced catholics who now ought to take the spirit of the pope's exhortation to the communion rail, leaving it to the bishops who may, if they hold to form, take eons to create welcoming language, (slowed even further by their own clear opposition to anything that challenges their control over the flock the were intended, as delegates of Christ, to serve), while the faithful practice their faith, now comforted by a pope who is at least attentive to the conditions and circumstances that affect marriages and their dissolution.
ite miss est.
ite miss est.
1
Although I left all religion more than 30 years ago, I am glad that after 2,000 years the teachings of Jesus, many of which I admire, have finally started to make an appearance in Catholicism. Now if Jesus could just get out of the business of promoting war abroad, gun violence at home, capital punishment and Donald Trump-style -eat-dog capitalism? Wow! That would be amazing!
8
Impressive. It only took two thousand and 16 years for the church dogma to move towards the teaching of its namesake, Jesus Christ
4
True but it goes a step further to include all the bigotry and atrocities committed, supported, and promoted by the Catholic Church. So, the Pope is progressive and the GOP is sending America back to the dark ages. It's one step at a time. He's really not saying anything different from other leaders who wonder what the heck is happening to America. He just happens to be a religious leader.
As a gay man, I wish Pope Francis had gone further than he did, despite the number of bishops who would've been angered. But as the son of a devout Catholic who stopped receiving communion in the 1960's because she was using a pharmaceutical birth control method, I have to be glad for this small step forward.
7
GOP=Grand Old Pope
The fact that this old white Catholic man got to speak to Congress speaks volumes. Get the politics and church out of women's uteruses.
The fact that this old white Catholic man got to speak to Congress speaks volumes. Get the politics and church out of women's uteruses.
9
A bit late in the game for my cousin who married an abusive man she later divorced to save herself and her children. Remarried for more than 30 years now to a wonderful guy, raised the kids in the Church, and wept because she felt she couldn't receive Communion at her mother's funeral because she was divorced.
So many of the prohibitions of the Catholic Church cause misery.
That's why a lot of us just ignore them.
So many of the prohibitions of the Catholic Church cause misery.
That's why a lot of us just ignore them.
25
Let's face it what the Pope says sounds nice but he leaves the details to the cardinals and bishops like NYCs own Cardinal Dolan who view women and families as just a means to an end ...more humans in the pews. He isn't interested in compassion or caring he's interested in control. As a result the Pope and, I hate to say it, is again engaging in feel good PR. If he wants the Bishops, cardinals and pastors to do something he should order them to do so ..he's the pope for god's sake. Just like his year of mercy for women, he turned the mercy giving over to men who could care less about women's needs and pressures. It's depressing.
9
The Catholic Church is playing catch-up on issues like this, which have been largely settled among non-believers, in some cases for decades. This is one of the major reasons why the Church has and will continue to be in decline in America.
These kinds of proclamations should have been coming out of the Church many years ago, and Francis should take care that they have lasting impact. We are as little as one further Pope away from having all of this rolled back to the dark ages again.
These kinds of proclamations should have been coming out of the Church many years ago, and Francis should take care that they have lasting impact. We are as little as one further Pope away from having all of this rolled back to the dark ages again.
14
It is disappointing that the Pope seems to criticize "safe sex". Contraception worldwide is needed to prevent over population of the planet which is as destructive to the planet as climate change. Scripture allows for protection of the greater good. The Pope must recognize that the greater good requires birth control. Will it take women who need birth control to be the spiritual leaders of the Pope?
5
Nonprofit organizations should not be tax free unless they uphold the constituion. It is a churche's right to choose to discriminate by refusing to marry lesbians and homosexuals. However, there are consequences to unconstitutional choices and these churches should pay taxes. My tax dollars are supporting the tax-free status of these churches and that is wrong.
Unconstitutional = No Tax Exempt Status
Unconstitutional = No Tax Exempt Status
16
My mother was forbidden to receive communion because she divorced her first husband. He beat her; next were the children, she was sure of it. My father and mother were finally able to be "married" in the Church after her first husband's death; she was also then allowed to receive communion. Nice! So...she was punished for saving herself and her children by fleeing an abusive, violent, horrible man.
Super disappointing - but not surprising - that Francis didn't go further, in "prescribing a clear process that would permit Catholics who divorced and remarried outside the church to receive communion."
Super disappointing - but not surprising - that Francis didn't go further, in "prescribing a clear process that would permit Catholics who divorced and remarried outside the church to receive communion."
5
Right on, Pope Francis!!
A priest should come down to my level to see it through my eyes. Otherwise, I am being preached to and judged more than comforted and cared for.
God put us here to comfort and heal the afflicted, did He not?
A priest should come down to my level to see it through my eyes. Otherwise, I am being preached to and judged more than comforted and cared for.
God put us here to comfort and heal the afflicted, did He not?
6
Yes, he did!
Why does anyone remain in a church that regards them as less than fully worthy as a human being? If you truly believe in the Pope's opinions, by all means be a Catholic and abide by all the rules. If you do not, aren't you being dishonest by staying in the church, and isn't that a sin?
11
It's not enough and it's too late but please consider this. Changing the Church is no small task. It's like trying to shift a planet in its course. Turning around a battleship would be a piece of cake compared to shifting the Catholic Church.
If the pope really has a pair though, he'll make one last stand before he leaves office and declare that women must be ordained and that limiting the number of children we bear in order to heal our overpopulated planet is a great and holy act.
If the pope really has a pair though, he'll make one last stand before he leaves office and declare that women must be ordained and that limiting the number of children we bear in order to heal our overpopulated planet is a great and holy act.
6
Oh please. The stress of modern living? I would think not having much food and the constant threat of Romans coming to pillage your town would be a bit stressful too. Don't confuse stress with weakness.
1
and there's plenty of evidence that the people of Late Antiquity and the Middle Ages were doubters, skeptics and non-conformists, too. Don't mistake the simplicity of textbooks for a true portrayal of the complexity of human experience.
1
Where is an article discussing the Vatican inviting Bernie Sanders to speak?
4
Francis has made gestures I welcome, but I haven't seen much substantive change. There is also the matter of women, entitled to an equal voice and equal standing in the Church, but whom the Vatican still denies that standing.
The biggest quibble I have is over Bernard Law, who, after revelations in Boston of protecting pedophile priests, the Vatican spirited away to Rome, where no one can touch him. I know that didn't happen under Francis' watch, but Francis needs to face that publicly.
The biggest quibble I have is over Bernard Law, who, after revelations in Boston of protecting pedophile priests, the Vatican spirited away to Rome, where no one can touch him. I know that didn't happen under Francis' watch, but Francis needs to face that publicly.
9
I have not read the full papal text, but it sounds like a compromise, if rather lopsided. It is well known that the Catholic Church views homosexuality as a sin, but not a mortal one. In the Pope's view, you can be living this sin, but that should not exclude you from the grace of God. That is not the aim of the Church. With this view, I can understand not accepting same-sex spiritual marriages (civil marriages are a completely different ballgame; and I should point out that I do not believe that homosexuality is a sin). The same with divorced and remarried couples. Yes, according to Church doctrine, divorce is wrong and remarriage without an annulment is bigamy, but those who are divorced should not be prevented from God's mercy if they truly want it. The are already many parish priests who allow divorced congregates to receive communion. Divorce is not a practice advocated by the Church, but it should not damn a person and prevent their access to God.
The last sentence beautifully sums up: "No one can be condemned forever!" Sins can be forgiven. That's why Jesus died for us.
The last sentence beautifully sums up: "No one can be condemned forever!" Sins can be forgiven. That's why Jesus died for us.
39
Ironically, child rape is not forgiven (Matt 18:6-14), nor is following the wrong church (1st commandment). So if you are a Catholic, ironically, you are not forgiven.
1
The only thing that prevents your access to God is your own heart. Gods love is a personal one, not institutional.
4
The church does not condemn forever. Never has. It is a temporal institution. We choose to be condemned or not as we choose sin or not.
Congratulations. For an institution as moribund as the Catholic church it can't have been an easy decision to move from the 18th to the 19th century.
10
Too bad the Holy Father has buried problem of predator priests. The catholic church's injunction for priests to be unmarried celibates is the root cause of this crisis.
5
This is just the latest example of how secular society has forced religion to change in order to stay relevant.
1
Well I wish he had gone farther comma, but still it is welcome to hear messages of openness and inclusion instead of the hate and divisiveness that we have been hearing so much of lately, especially from politicians who call themselves Christians. No one should be scorned!
1
Yardley and Goldstein:"R. R. Reno, a Catholic theologian and editor of First Things, a conservative journal of religion and public life, lamented what he called a 'muddy' document that substitutes the church’s 'rules and laws and requirements' with 'talk about ideals and values.'"
What the so-called conservatives fail to understand is that they have unnecessarily complicated the mysteries of faith that unify Catholics. The mysteries of faith, according to Fr. Kevin O'Brien, a Jesuit at Georgetown University, have frequently been turned into "doctrinal puzzles to be figured out...But we follow a person, not an idea" (p. 75, Give Us This Day, April 2016).
O'Brien goes on to note that, "If we were followers of a philosophy, that approach (making faith a 'doctrinal puzzle to figure out') to faith might work."
Pope Francis gets it. Faith is about following a person and not about "'rules and laws and requirements" that the person being followed did not give to the Church.
What the so-called conservatives fail to understand is that they have unnecessarily complicated the mysteries of faith that unify Catholics. The mysteries of faith, according to Fr. Kevin O'Brien, a Jesuit at Georgetown University, have frequently been turned into "doctrinal puzzles to be figured out...But we follow a person, not an idea" (p. 75, Give Us This Day, April 2016).
O'Brien goes on to note that, "If we were followers of a philosophy, that approach (making faith a 'doctrinal puzzle to figure out') to faith might work."
Pope Francis gets it. Faith is about following a person and not about "'rules and laws and requirements" that the person being followed did not give to the Church.
5
The only fault that seems unforgivable is being born a woman. Pope Francis has declared that under no circumstances will women be considered as eligible for ordination as priest; they are effectively barred from full participation in the life of the church. This document does not address the of ordination of women because that topic is off the table.
7
One of the illuminating issues that comes from Yardley and Goldstein's revealing writing is the roil in Catholic doctrine that the Heavenly Father must navigate. It comes from the modern times in which we live; conservative Catholics are threatened by the changes in society that have been happening with strength since the '60's; liberal Catholics hope for a change.
The Catholic dilemma is starting to sound a bit like the dilemma that the Republican Party faces. When society progresses (conservatives will see it as a regression) it puts pressure on the status quo. But it's a test. Who knows, maybe the status quo is the correct path (conservatives will say that it is)?
That Pope Francis wants even to address divorce with any conciliatory statement means that he is concerned that the Church continue to lose more followers to the more accepting culture against which the Church's conservatives rebel. The Pope has to bring conservatives along with him in his quest for greater inclusivity.
Meanwhile liberals see hope in the Heavenly Father's message. But were there any practical consequence to his message, conservatives would balk. So liberals' hope remains an unfulfilled hope.
Catholicism is a tough religion. the Church's power demands acceptance of its governance in order to receive that divine grace that Christ delivered. Not all people are recognized by the Catholic Church. But Pope Francis's message appears to open the way for the sinners whom Jesus would accept.
The Catholic dilemma is starting to sound a bit like the dilemma that the Republican Party faces. When society progresses (conservatives will see it as a regression) it puts pressure on the status quo. But it's a test. Who knows, maybe the status quo is the correct path (conservatives will say that it is)?
That Pope Francis wants even to address divorce with any conciliatory statement means that he is concerned that the Church continue to lose more followers to the more accepting culture against which the Church's conservatives rebel. The Pope has to bring conservatives along with him in his quest for greater inclusivity.
Meanwhile liberals see hope in the Heavenly Father's message. But were there any practical consequence to his message, conservatives would balk. So liberals' hope remains an unfulfilled hope.
Catholicism is a tough religion. the Church's power demands acceptance of its governance in order to receive that divine grace that Christ delivered. Not all people are recognized by the Catholic Church. But Pope Francis's message appears to open the way for the sinners whom Jesus would accept.
3
This is really about marketing – opening up eligibility for people to become Catholic or rejoin the Church, so they can be controlled, once again by the Church.
5
Oh, There are foolish reasons why priests can not marry.... But I will never understand how a priest, who is not allowed to create his own family, has absolutely any capacity to council or advise families within his church on marriage or any other domestic topic.
The fundamental human purpose... Create a family and pass on your genes to the next generation... That is disallowed by a religion onto it's leaders.... Is insanity and surely a red flag to those who would consider membership.
The fundamental human purpose... Create a family and pass on your genes to the next generation... That is disallowed by a religion onto it's leaders.... Is insanity and surely a red flag to those who would consider membership.
6
RIGHT ON; WRITE ON!!
1
Foolish? No. Celibacy happened for a reason - to try to stem financial corruption, but it has grown impractical today. It's important to remember though, that celibacy arose for mostly secular, not religious, reasons.
5
So by your thinking couples past child rearing age should not marry? How about couples where one of the spouses is sterile? Deny them marriage also? Think. Isn't marriage more than about "pass your genes to the next generation"?
3
Do people need to look to someone to tell them what to do? When are we going to realize that we need to care for our fellow man and ourselves regardless of religion? Now as a catholic if we get a divorce do we really need an annulment from the church? This is very expensive and time consuming. First you pay the lawyers and then the church. The end result from this annulment is that we can be a member in good standing in the church. How about a member in good standing with our fellow man? That does not cost money and will make everyone’s life better regardless of religion.
7
The protocol has changed under Pope Francis, and in most diocese there are no fees for annulment.
1
At least with Pope Francis we're making progress again ... forward, not backward. The Church is never going to progress fast enough for many people, but Francis is quickly putting enough stones in the stream to let future Popes cross over to the other side of reversing Humane Vitae, allowing greater gender diversity, more care for the poor, etc., without getting wet. My children will see it, but alas, likely not I.
2
Methinks this Pope can walk on water---no stones needed. He is the rock, and he will walk the walk, talk the talk.
This Pope seems a very human man indeed. Seen from the outside, he leads his church in a very admirable way. No wonder he's so revered and respected by all. JGAIA
6
"... revered and respected by all?" Wrong!
3
Pope Francis has changed the tone of the conversation. To an outsider, this might seem like a minor change, but to active Catholics, it's been a huge difference. One step at a time, while trying to keep the flock together.
4
I attended Catholic grammar school in the 60's in New Jersey. Discipline wasn't harsh, it was sadistic. They put the fear of God in us, so many of us tried to hide from Him. I didn't leave the church, I escaped from it and spent the next 50 years trying to deny the existence of a God that I grew up thinking as more cruel than the Satan, without any of the fun enjoyed by the dark side. New stories about the staggering numbers of sex crimes committed by and keep secret by Catholic clergy keep surfacing. The Pope suggests not throwing stones toward parishioners unless the culture of a given parish supports it? That's called leading by following.
10
The criticism that Pope Francis doesn't go far enough seems reflexive and shallow, and bent toward ones personal opinions.
This is a doctrinaire-breaking pronouncement. Recognizing the vast cultural diversity within the Church and the necessary "marriage" of doctrine with culture, Francis allows discretion at the local level under a directive of love, acceptance, and forgiveness. Francis has elevated the message of the Gospels above Church dogmatism, both ancient and recent, and has brought Church, conscience and culture together on a personal level.
Surely LGBT wanted more, but Pope Francis has crated room for all in the Church, even if it does not presently approve their unions. A larger move at this point might have created a rift within a classically conservative organization, which needed to be avoided. Moving as much as he did to the local level was brilliant.
This is a doctrinaire-breaking pronouncement. Recognizing the vast cultural diversity within the Church and the necessary "marriage" of doctrine with culture, Francis allows discretion at the local level under a directive of love, acceptance, and forgiveness. Francis has elevated the message of the Gospels above Church dogmatism, both ancient and recent, and has brought Church, conscience and culture together on a personal level.
Surely LGBT wanted more, but Pope Francis has crated room for all in the Church, even if it does not presently approve their unions. A larger move at this point might have created a rift within a classically conservative organization, which needed to be avoided. Moving as much as he did to the local level was brilliant.
7
"Conservative Catholics, who have already expressed concern that Francis could destabilize the church and undermine doctrine, were far less impressed."
"Destabilize" = Make it more difficult to determine who I am holier than.
"Destabilize" = Make it more difficult to determine who I am holier than.
2
Amoris Laetitia is just rearranging the deck chairs. Until Francis helps save the planet by urging contraception, we are doomed.
7
RCC dips its little toe into the 21st century - astonishing!
1
As a point of sacramental dogma, barring people from communion is nearly a punishment for a failed marriage. The formula, "If love fails, the marriage sacrament does not..." is backwards. If marriage fails, true love does not. Yet, many priests are dispensed from vows of Holy Orders, and are free to marry or take communion. We conclude that Marriage is the only sacrament that carries lifetime penalties even for an innocent spouse...but we are all sinners...but some are valued more. I just think ex-priests and the divorced should be treated with the same dispensed courtesy. And the Church should be ashamed for granting release to failed priests but not failed laity.
1
I completely agree. I was shocked when I realize that a Catholic can confess to a sin (major or minor), receive absolution from the priest and do penance and then be fully accepted into communion with the Church, with the sole exception of those who are divorced and have remarried without an annulment. That remarriage after divorce is considered the only truly unforgivable sin is unfathomable.
1
"The Joy of Love" utterly fails when it urges "the faithful" to "carefully avoid" signs of discrimination (especially violence) against LGBT people; Love does not countenance the careful avoidance of hate-- it represents the purest remedy to (and is the antithesis of) hate in all forms. The "exhortation" suggests that we're all chomping at the bit to violently discriminate, but that we must grit our teeth and force "restraint" in our hate of the so-called unwashed. People: that is not love. Though I usually agree with Fr. Martin and his Jesuitical analysis, he is flat wrong when he says that the message is "welcome" -- it is not; the message is "Psst: slither in through the side entrance to see if your parish priest (in his discretion) might let you in the front door one day.." That is not an exhortation to love. That is not a welcome. Francis has broken my heart, again (first time was embracing the county clerk who refused civil marriage licenses to gay couples in violation of a civil supreme court ruling of a sovereign country).
4
It more/less expected depending on where each person stands. But again, Pope France has taken a middle ground - urging love of each other. Less judgement, less dogma and moralistic codes according to individual and social necessities are major changes from the rigidity of the past. There are no rules but he leaves it to the pastor and his flock to decide. The important thing is love triumphs above all else. He has made room for great changes without making too many changes. He has opened the doors of the Church. Pope Francis seems to be shooting winners after winners. He is my Pope and I am not even a Catholic.
2
Pope Francis appears to be a good man who is intent on exerting a positive influence. But, with apologies, I must say that there are absurd aspects to the pope's pronouncements. Why would anyone in this day and age pay attention when a linkage is made between spirituality and martial status or sexual preference? And the notion that the individual making such pronouncements has been anointed by a religious organization as an infallible leader is a primitive notion that is fundamentally out of step with the modern world.
3
Not everyone is as sophisticated as you David and there may be those who appreciate, or even will not make a decision, without guidance from moral authorities. Some of us feel the right to judge, but the message is do not judge; these are the lines of a moral, and implicitly ultimately "good" life that have been handed down for longer than any of us have been alive.
1
Does any of this have any theological rigor, staying power? Sounds like simply a nice guy stepping out of the lines to express his opinions. He's not even trying to herald a new initiative inside the Church to formally reassess centuries of dogma, practice.
With all due respect as I see it, wisdom comes from within; not from without. And a Catholic priest or even pope, is just another human whose chosen profession happens to be in the field of religion. With training and a big dose of critical thinking anyone can read and provide an interpretation to a holy book, as well as, turn inward or go to a higher inner space through prayer or meditation. Also, anyone on their own can choose to use contraceptives or not and live a lifestyle that's most personally appropriate.
And if there are life hang-ups and issues, a well-trained experienced psychotherapist can help unclog the psychological pipes and enable personal and even spiritual growth and freedom from destructive conditioning.
Additionally, if there is a God (Santa-like or otherwise) it's unimaginable that connecting with or communicating with such an entity (that's supposed to be like a father or mother) would require a designated intermediary. There's surely a direct toll-free line.
Used to be early confused fearful humans who felt out of control made sacrifices to appease numerous gods for many purposes including fertility and a good harvest. It's interesting and befuddling that the minds of so many around the world remain stuck in a similar belief system.
And by the way, I grew up Catholic and even went to Catholic elementary school. Thankfully, it didn't over the long haul take.
And if there are life hang-ups and issues, a well-trained experienced psychotherapist can help unclog the psychological pipes and enable personal and even spiritual growth and freedom from destructive conditioning.
Additionally, if there is a God (Santa-like or otherwise) it's unimaginable that connecting with or communicating with such an entity (that's supposed to be like a father or mother) would require a designated intermediary. There's surely a direct toll-free line.
Used to be early confused fearful humans who felt out of control made sacrifices to appease numerous gods for many purposes including fertility and a good harvest. It's interesting and befuddling that the minds of so many around the world remain stuck in a similar belief system.
And by the way, I grew up Catholic and even went to Catholic elementary school. Thankfully, it didn't over the long haul take.
4
Ah, this is nice of Pope Francis to take the soft line re various Catholic doctrines.
I don't know if he realizes that most Catholics, years ago, already made up their own minds regarding these issues.
Divorced & remarried Catholics, if they wanted to, have been receiving Communion all along.
Most Catholic couples see no problem with birth control.
(forget the rhythm method!)
Just for the record, I am a Catholic from Northern Ireland.
I stopped attending church years ago. It is sad indeed.
At one point in my life I attended Mass daily. I was educated by nuns from age 5 to 18. Convent boarding school.
I do pray daily, big prayers from the heart.
I would have more respect for the Catholic Church if they sold all the art in the Vatican. If Jesus were alive today, he certainly wouldn't be hoarding the wealth that is tied up in the Vatican's art.
I don't know if he realizes that most Catholics, years ago, already made up their own minds regarding these issues.
Divorced & remarried Catholics, if they wanted to, have been receiving Communion all along.
Most Catholic couples see no problem with birth control.
(forget the rhythm method!)
Just for the record, I am a Catholic from Northern Ireland.
I stopped attending church years ago. It is sad indeed.
At one point in my life I attended Mass daily. I was educated by nuns from age 5 to 18. Convent boarding school.
I do pray daily, big prayers from the heart.
I would have more respect for the Catholic Church if they sold all the art in the Vatican. If Jesus were alive today, he certainly wouldn't be hoarding the wealth that is tied up in the Vatican's art.
159
My thoughts exactly-certainly true for America Catholics.
Ah yes, let's have the greatest art of the western tradition hoarded in the vaults of shadowy billionaires. For all of the imperfections and scandals of the Catholic Church, I cannot imagine an institution that I would trust more with the conservancy of great art.
As for your other observations: Exactly! The Pope, like any priest from Latin America, knows perfectly well that the people have moved on. This exhortation serves to tell his fellow bishops to get on the bus, before it comes and goes.
I belong to a parish run by the Pope's fellow Jesuits, and there all these matters faded away many years ago. I suspect you could find a similar community where you are. Welcome back - the sacraments are waiting for you and would do you well!
As for your other observations: Exactly! The Pope, like any priest from Latin America, knows perfectly well that the people have moved on. This exhortation serves to tell his fellow bishops to get on the bus, before it comes and goes.
I belong to a parish run by the Pope's fellow Jesuits, and there all these matters faded away many years ago. I suspect you could find a similar community where you are. Welcome back - the sacraments are waiting for you and would do you well!
3
I think the art in the Vatican is priceless. It has nothing to do with the money. It is part of the culture of the church.
3
You could have wished the Pope had done more here, but given the nature of the church and the balancing act he has to maintain, it is a step forward. I think the biggest piece of this, that some are missing, is that the Pope with this document is aiming it at local churches, and telling the priest and the members that they have their conscience and faith to act upon, rather than relying on the organizational church. That is a big step away from JPII and Benedict who basically took that option away from local churches, and appointed a group of Bishops who are the antithesis of what Francis just wrote, a bunch of judgemental, dogmatic men blind to the reality of their flock's lives. Under JPII and Benedict churches that once were accepting of LGBT people were forced to either hide under the radar, or ask them to leave.
I think, too, that Francis has realized that the church's absolute stance on marriage is not so absolute and hasn't been. The annullment process now grants something like 50,000 a year, that is not annulment, that is religious divorce, so to judge divorced people while in effect allowing divorce is increasingly hypocritical.
I think, too, that Francis has realized that the church's absolute stance on marriage is not so absolute and hasn't been. The annullment process now grants something like 50,000 a year, that is not annulment, that is religious divorce, so to judge divorced people while in effect allowing divorce is increasingly hypocritical.
Meanwhile, state legislatures here are passing more and more draconian laws to deprive women of their reproductive rights and freedom of choice at the urging of this pope, who admonished our our political leaders in his sermon during mass held in the halls of congress last year to "protect life at every stage of development."
6
Unlike certain U.S. Supreme Court justices, I think the Pope recognizes that he cannot simply decide to ignore the opinions of all the bishops and cardinals, most of whom have been appointed by decades of very conservative Popes. Nor can Francis toss aside a centuries-long intellectual tradition as our five member SCOTUS conservative majority so often did. I suspect that, like Obama, Francis is moving the ball as far as he can as a liberal saddled with a conservative college of cardinals who can block his every move if they feel too threatened or provoked.
I wold have preferred a much more liberal document but I think the Pope has his eye on Church politics as well.
I wold have preferred a much more liberal document but I think the Pope has his eye on Church politics as well.
2
Dear New York Times:
Given the centuries-long horror of child abuse that is apparently hard-wired in the Catholic Church, enough with the beauty shots of be-robed and be-ringed popes receiving the flocks of sheeple.
Given the centuries-long horror of child abuse that is apparently hard-wired in the Catholic Church, enough with the beauty shots of be-robed and be-ringed popes receiving the flocks of sheeple.
9
The NY Times photograph accurately reflects the appearance of the Pope. That is what reputable news organizations do. This article is not commentary, just simple reporting.
2
I'm happy to see the Pope having introduced this document. While I now attend a Presbyterian church in Manhattan, the basic Catholic values I grew up with have served me well.
I've many lapsed Catholic friends and co-workers who, I suspect, no longer practice bc the love & reason they've witnessed outside the church appeal to them more. Yet I see how some Catholic principles have shaped and benefited their characters in lasting ways.
Indeed, I hope this Vatican's new position can make the Catholic community more attractive - bc the church is meant to be a hospitable hospital for all, a place of healing and charity and of seeking deeply personal relationships with God, not one of exclusion.
Non-Christians will never consider the Gospel if it's not presented with love and humility, and from individuals who've themselves wrestled with their beliefs, yet seek to live them out.
I've many lapsed Catholic friends and co-workers who, I suspect, no longer practice bc the love & reason they've witnessed outside the church appeal to them more. Yet I see how some Catholic principles have shaped and benefited their characters in lasting ways.
Indeed, I hope this Vatican's new position can make the Catholic community more attractive - bc the church is meant to be a hospitable hospital for all, a place of healing and charity and of seeking deeply personal relationships with God, not one of exclusion.
Non-Christians will never consider the Gospel if it's not presented with love and humility, and from individuals who've themselves wrestled with their beliefs, yet seek to live them out.
2
There simply are no rules any more. If you complain long and loud enough, conventionality, religious practices and societal norms will be bent and then changed to suit the liberal agenda. Even the Pope has caved. It was only a matter of time, and time is always on the side of the revolutionaries who hate western civilization.
1
@Paul - Don't be silly. Nothing the Pope said has changed any church doctrine.
In my opinion, including acceptance of LGB people in the same paper as acceptance of divorced people is a mistake. LGB people are 1. Born that way and 2. Harm no one. On the other hand, divorce is a cancer in society. The victims of marriage, the children, are often scarred - sometimes beyond repair. Divorce is often the result of one, or likely two, incompetent people who chose to be that way.
1
“ ‘Amoris Laetitia’ is a quietly revolutionary document,”
Wow, only two thousand years later and the catholic church makes a revolutionary pronouncement, roughly equivalent to "judge not lest ye be judged".
"It will be a great encouragement especially to divorced and remarried Catholics and anyone who feels they have been unwelcome in the church. The message is: Welcome.” Thats mighty christian of them. What's the next great pronouncement, " love thy neighbor as thyself"?
Seems like the church is trying to reestablish some relevance for itself. If They continue along this present path, they may actually "get it" some day, god willing.
Wow, only two thousand years later and the catholic church makes a revolutionary pronouncement, roughly equivalent to "judge not lest ye be judged".
"It will be a great encouragement especially to divorced and remarried Catholics and anyone who feels they have been unwelcome in the church. The message is: Welcome.” Thats mighty christian of them. What's the next great pronouncement, " love thy neighbor as thyself"?
Seems like the church is trying to reestablish some relevance for itself. If They continue along this present path, they may actually "get it" some day, god willing.
5
By delegating the 'front lines' of inclusion down to the local parish, the Pope is able to accommodate the cultures of both the rich countries and the poor countries. That is crucial and complex. LGBTQ rights are now mainstream in the West but they are far from that in most other countries. The same is true for the status of women. The Church is never going to be openly on the social vanguard; it is often quite simply too politically dangerous, especially in ethnically divided, politically unstable countries. I wish the Church could be as radically (and openly!) welcoming as Jesus was but it's mandate is also to be an enduring community in peoples' lives and religious persecution and civil wars are still very real in many of the world's poor countries. This Pope is generous but also wise.
1
I admire the Pope for updating the views of the Catholic Church. On the other hand, it's another demonstration that religions change over time to accommodate what is socially accepted. All religions are human created and change in order to keep from going extinct. Muslims are hopelessly behind, but will eventually undergo the same changes. They are just several hundreds years behind Western philosophy at this time. Future historians will laugh at this age of science and religion.
But he hasn't! He's just said some nice sounding stuff and left everything else in place.
3
Evidently, in the Catholic Church, several hundred years do not matter all that much. Although I bet forgiveness of child abuse committed by the clergy will not take all THAT long...............
POPE FRANCIS Is closer to the practices that Jesus would have followed in his times. Jesus was born Jewish. He never had a thought of starting another religion, while he urged a caring interpretation of the Hebrew Scriptures. Pope Francis's encouragement welcomes Catholics with variation to meet the spiritual needs of congregants depending on where they live and the local culture. Such practices are reflected in the variations in the original documents, all of which were written many years after Jesus lived. Francis embrace a gay former student and his student's husband. His statement that same-sex marriage is to be seen differently from heterosexual marriage reflects cultural and historic reality. Officially sanctioned same-sex marriage is relatively recent. I think that the Pope's ideas bear some similarities to the rationalist philosophers, Descartes, Spinoza and Leibniz, who suggest that the deity and nature are the same and are everywhere. I greatly admire the Pope's leading by example, living and dressing modestly, leaving the comforts of home at night to go to the poorest areas to minister to the less fortunate, to comfort them, to wash their feet. His gay former student was accompanied by his aunt in addition to his husband. When she greeted him, she said, Pray for me. Francis responded with an open heart, Pray for me. His message is, set aside your differences and open your hearts to each other, for that is the road to love and peace.
2
Hmm. Churches are closing. Catholic schools are closing. Church attendance is way down.The Vatican treasury "may" be taking a hit. Business is bad! Better find a way to get more people in those pews every Sunday. Lowering the bar for admission is just good business.
3
Let them create the big separation that is coming... most catholics are leaving and will continue to leave even more.... at least they are taking care of their salvation.
People turn to religion in their desire to understand what this human journey is all about. We know there are myriad faiths practiced around the world, many that those of us raised in the Judeo-Christian world find quite strange. But it is never important to unpack beliefs with the intention of agreeing or judging. At the same time, we're in no way obliged to be bound by someone else's choice. Of course, the reality is that those who become priests of a faith feel compelled to convince everyone both in and out of the religion, of the truth of their teaching. It is really quite silly but then human nature is like that. It saddens me when religion is used for self-righteous gain but I'm very happy that even those raised in a faith are free to walk away. There are many ways to find meaning in life and no religion holds a monopoly on truth. Certainly, the Catholic Church has lost its right to teach us about morality given its performance in the last few decades. We don't need to unpack history to prove the same thing. I encourage those who feel marginalized by Catholic teachings to let it all go. Trust me, your "salvation" is not dependent on complying with these teachings.
1
The catholic church and other organized religious organizations are the ones who are socially "broken". It always galls me to hear from the Pope when his organization has supported institutionalize pedophilia apparently since the beginning of time. They think they have a right to control the lives of over one-half the world's population - women - and call others "sinners"? It is absurd. Almost as absurd as the idea that one has to access their creator through a priest or some other "religious" person. Organized religion can't catch up - it is too embroiled in medieval and ancient ideas. Believe what you want but keep organized religion out of politics and our lives. And for heaven's sake stop trying to "sell" the pope.
10
If I was the pope I think in my heart of hearts I would feel deeply ashamed that the church I represent can do no better than declare that 'people ought to try and be nice to each other, given how tough it is to navigate through life.'
10
I applaud and welcome the 21st century approach the Pope has taken on divorced couples. They, like my wife and I, began a journey at an early age full of love and expectations but no assurances, just faith in ourselves. We are still together while many of our friends are now divorced or married for the 2nd or 3rd time, always searching for that elusive prize. It has not always been bliss or easy but we have succeeded unlike many good people who divorced from one another but never wanted to divorce from the Church. The old conservative thinking that those who could not continue the journey, for one human reason or another, were somehow soiled and declared personae non gratae. Worse yet they were expelled from the institution they loved, and sent to the East of Eden.
Such approach negates not only the Catholic principle of understanding but also the teachings of Christ Himself who had no problem in forgiving a prostitute, washed the feet of the downtrodden, and also forgave and loved those who killed him. This is the leader Catholics have been yearning for centuries.
Such approach negates not only the Catholic principle of understanding but also the teachings of Christ Himself who had no problem in forgiving a prostitute, washed the feet of the downtrodden, and also forgave and loved those who killed him. This is the leader Catholics have been yearning for centuries.
1
Isn't is a topsy turvy world where the Pope preaches love above doctrine and the GOP Presidential candidates preach hate via their doctrines. I love Pope Francis. Yes he could go further but he is wise enough to know that small steps over time will have a better chance of getting us there. Bravo!
5
Most Catholics, even practicing ones, are way beyond small steps in their lives.
3
"preaches love above doctrine and the GOP Presidential candidates preach hate via their doctrines." yeah, so let's chuck the doctrine... is that what you are saying... well we all have our own God..... but if that is the case we are not talking about THE GOD.... and this "above Doctrine" mean he is above the word of God...
Asking the catholic clergy for advice on issues of human sexuality is like asking an Amish man how a turbocharger works.
47
I hope to live long enough to see a Papal pronouncement on the false worship of guns. AR15s and AK47s have no place in a civil society. IMHO it's impossible to square the proliferation of high-powered weapons with anything that appears in the Bible, yet they seem to go hand-in-hand in some parts of this country. Perhaps the document could be entitled "What weapon would Jesus choose?"
6
Don't hold your breath remember this is the Pope who said if his mother, his religion, was offended he would punch the offender in the nose!
1
As popes go (some of us may still remember a little more than a half century ago when Pius declared plastic surgery a mortal sin--but then so was eating meat on Friday), Francis has proven himself relatively pragmatic and at times downright hip. It would be nice, therefore, to credit His Holiness' stance on divorce to progressiveness rather than pandering to a collection plate filling congregation who want to do what they want without the stigma of sin (while still presuming a moral high ground over the big bad homosexuals).
2
I was raised Catholic. Very Catholic. Catholicism was the very center of our family. I had a wonderful childhood filled with joy, love, and, well, yes, rules.
And I left the church in college. Most think it is because I am a lesbian but that is really not my primary reason. My primary reason is the church's stance on birth control. Study after study demonstrates that if a woman has access to birth control, then she will have better health and economic outcomes for herself and her offspring. Access to birth control (preventing unwanted pregnancies, birth spacing) can help lift a family out of poverty or one young girl out of grinding poverty if she has fewer mouths to feed and can get herself to school.
Until this changes, the church is unflinchingly misogynistic. It is unacceptable.
I was hoping that Pope Francis would make some movement to change this - baby steps - but he has not and that is tremendously disappointing.
And I left the church in college. Most think it is because I am a lesbian but that is really not my primary reason. My primary reason is the church's stance on birth control. Study after study demonstrates that if a woman has access to birth control, then she will have better health and economic outcomes for herself and her offspring. Access to birth control (preventing unwanted pregnancies, birth spacing) can help lift a family out of poverty or one young girl out of grinding poverty if she has fewer mouths to feed and can get herself to school.
Until this changes, the church is unflinchingly misogynistic. It is unacceptable.
I was hoping that Pope Francis would make some movement to change this - baby steps - but he has not and that is tremendously disappointing.
36
Wow. The Pope is so modern.
2
Pushing a 2000 year old institution stuck in the muck of its own history is a long, slow slog for the Pope and he won't get all the changes he wants in his lifetime but maybe he can move those intransigents of the hierarchy closer to reality of human life as it exists. Go, Francis, Go! The rest of you Curia, Cardinals and Bishops, get out of the way so he can help you help yourselves to more than the money and good life you have become accustomed to.
5
Note that he isn't changing the Catechism of the Catholic Church. He is just softening the rhetoric so that they can get more rumps in the pews.
http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/_INDEX.HTM
http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/_INDEX.HTM
I love Pope Francis. He has pure goodness and love in his heart. I feel so lucky that he is the Pope -- and I'm not even Catholic. He is the true leader that the world needs right now.
7
It looks like Pope Francis is boldly leading the Church into the 20th century. Not treating divorcees, women, and gay and transgender people like criminals sounds very enlightened--if this was 1916 and not 2016, that is. Maybe in another couple of hundred years the Church will enter the 21st century and accept those folks as equal members, and not second class citizens.
19
The Catholic Church did not invent marriage. The CC had a had in developing "holy matrimony" but they certainly did not invent that either. This is an example of the power the church (all of them) has in their desire to control the lives of every one, even those not affiliated with the church.
13
For a minute I thought I was reading "The Medieval Times" not "The New York Times". As my morning paper had a story about an old wizard dressed in a white cloak handing down his wisdom to the people below. "Be welcoming to those not quite like you." he proclaims. The crowd stands back in awe. And while many cheer this revelation there are some who disapprove of such radical notions, as they gather in the shadows to further their plots of tryranny.
32
When a CEO publishes yet another 'all employees bulletin' exposing his total lack of understanding of their daily lives in the trenches, employees refer to it as "Bullsh*t From the Corner Office."
Il Papa's latest will be similarly greeted by his intended audience of Escaped Catholics. His delusional detachment from their lives & cares is palpable.
No collection of old white with a sordid history of secrecy, corruption, medieval thinking & mysticism, who to this day harbor thousand of pedophiles, who have never been married - traditionally or otherwise - or shouldered the responsibility & hardships of raising a family have ANY BUSINESS WHATEVER (not to mention expertise) 'counseling' people on how to burden their 21st century lives with a 10th century religion.
Frank is simply trying to stay relevant, trying to lure suckers back to an church whose membership in the civilized world has plunged. Blinded by the moat in his own eye, he cannot bring himself to acknowledge reality, to admit "Hey, we're pretty screwed up; our 'traditions' and beliefs are medieval, we're going to come into the 21st century. And BTW, we could use your money."
Indeed, the premise of his 'bull' is delusional -- it presumes escaped ex-Catholics give a fig about returning to The Flock, & that they would waste their time "counseling" with an unmarried celibate - who gets free room/board/clothes/healthcare & a car - about how to run their lives.
Il Papa's latest will be similarly greeted by his intended audience of Escaped Catholics. His delusional detachment from their lives & cares is palpable.
No collection of old white with a sordid history of secrecy, corruption, medieval thinking & mysticism, who to this day harbor thousand of pedophiles, who have never been married - traditionally or otherwise - or shouldered the responsibility & hardships of raising a family have ANY BUSINESS WHATEVER (not to mention expertise) 'counseling' people on how to burden their 21st century lives with a 10th century religion.
Frank is simply trying to stay relevant, trying to lure suckers back to an church whose membership in the civilized world has plunged. Blinded by the moat in his own eye, he cannot bring himself to acknowledge reality, to admit "Hey, we're pretty screwed up; our 'traditions' and beliefs are medieval, we're going to come into the 21st century. And BTW, we could use your money."
Indeed, the premise of his 'bull' is delusional -- it presumes escaped ex-Catholics give a fig about returning to The Flock, & that they would waste their time "counseling" with an unmarried celibate - who gets free room/board/clothes/healthcare & a car - about how to run their lives.
30
If Pope Francis keeps this up, he will have the entire Catholic Church operating in a manner consistent with the teachings of Jesus Christ.
What a novel idea !!
What a novel idea !!
27
He has a very long road to travel before that happens.
2
How about birth control? Isn't it about time? Perhaps the most urgent issue regarding quality of life and a shrinking planet is to avoid bringing unwanted children into communities that are already impoverished or into ANY communities, for that matter.
127
@Heidi - It seems like the commentary regarding using one's conscience is an indirect way of telling people it's okay to use birth control.
1
What can one say? As a former RC, PF is a good man trying to reform one of the most successful spiritual cults in modern history. Forgiveness for Divorce? This is a no-brainer, but as we can see, very difficult for a institution that cannot acknowledge previous errors in its own theology; the myth building of the early RC church, the expulsion of woman priests in the early church, and the continued misogyny of its leaders. Until the RC hierarchy can reform itself by bringing woman into the priesthood - it will continue to wither as the faithful become more aware of its history and hypocrisy. As humanity becomes more educated, it will move away from institutions that depend simply on faith.
56
No matter what he does, this pope always leaves women out in the cold.
Any religion that does not recognize women as equal is not worth believing in.
Any religion that does not recognize women as equal is not worth believing in.
137
Then don't.
1
No amount of pontificating--pun intended--can change the fact that the teaching on the worthy reception of Holy Communion, the Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity, of our Lord; is dogmatic--and not disciplinary or canonical. Thus, no pope, Council, or exhortation can declare that there is a "path" for those living in mortal sin {i.e not in a state of sanctifying grace} to receive. It is not a matter of "conscience" or discernment, for a well formed conscience is cognizant that he commits the sin of sacrilege if he receives in such state sans sacramental confession.
7
A lovely demonstration of the irony inherent in saying that human-made rules are above human-made rules. What makes "the teaching on the worthy reception of Holy Communion" above any "Pope, Council or exhortation", when it was exactly past Popes, Councils and exhortations that established that teaching?
7
I think you should go back to the original source for your information. To the best of our knowledge, based on a limited number of texts directly attributed to Christ, he said "this is my body, this is my blood. Eat. Drink. Do this in remembrance of me." He did not qualify his words, add rules, or suggest that the bread could be broken and the wine served only by a male priest.
I could break the bread and serve the wine if I so chose to do so and I would be in accordance with the words of Christ.
I could break the bread and serve the wine if I so chose to do so and I would be in accordance with the words of Christ.
1
2 Timothy 4:3 "For there will be a period of time when they will not put up with the wholesome teaching, but according to their own desires, they will surround themselves with teachers to have their ears tickled. They will turn away from listening to the truth and give attention to false stories."
2
Did St Paul write 2 Timothy? Most scholars say it is the work of an unnamed later follower of St Paul.
While I'm happy to see Francis is nudging his stubborn church into something approximately the present, I also wonder why any thinking person imagines rules that were laid down centuries ago have any relevancy today? Simply because they come with the imprimatur of the deeply flawed, tragically dysfunctional Roman Catholic church? Some priests are genuinely pastoral but in the end, they are all pitching a product that is *way* beyond its sell-by date.
32
Why do rules laid down centuries ago have any relevancy today? Because human nature doesn't change and never will change. All that's changed is our toys.
2
Well, blessed be! Thank you, Holy Father. Now, on to the matter of women priests......hope is in the air!
9
The majority of the Catholic priests I have encountered lately have been wonderful. They have been excellent listeners and have not judged. I think Pope Francis has had a positive impact on them and the congregants. The one thing I am seeing at Sunday Mass is that many young adults are in attendance and I am sure this is the result of quality homilies and the priests' compassionate ways. They are aware of the many struggles and problems facing our world today. Most priests are quite approachable and I have experienced this in my encounters with them. We must give them credit for being there for us when we truly need them.
The Catholic Church has been in existence for over 2000 years and has over 1.2 billion members and is still very relevant in our world today. I want to thank Pope Francis for all the love and kindness he has shown to Catholics and non Catholics alike. He talks the talk and walks the walk. I am thrilled to be part of this excellent religion.
The Catholic Church has been in existence for over 2000 years and has over 1.2 billion members and is still very relevant in our world today. I want to thank Pope Francis for all the love and kindness he has shown to Catholics and non Catholics alike. He talks the talk and walks the walk. I am thrilled to be part of this excellent religion.
21
Because you are clearly straight.
Any faith that excludes a person for an inborn issue: LGBT, is unworthy of the name of God. It excludes LGBT from its priest, as well as females.
This newest stance is the Catholic version of separate but equal.
No!
Any faith that excludes a person for an inborn issue: LGBT, is unworthy of the name of God. It excludes LGBT from its priest, as well as females.
This newest stance is the Catholic version of separate but equal.
No!
1
You make it sound like a club (which it really is, with only some people being able to fully participate). Your "excellent religion" has done plenty of harm in countless ways with countless victims. It's 2000 years old alright, and it's mindset is stuck there. I'm glad you've met some nice priests, I have too. I've also had some horrendous experiences with priests, there are good ones and there are bad ones too - don't paint them all as being saint-like, they're not.
I've also noticed on this thread that you've been making some snarky comments about the Episcopal Church, that's not very Christian.
I've also noticed on this thread that you've been making some snarky comments about the Episcopal Church, that's not very Christian.
2
Moira,
First, the Episcopalians have made some pretty snarky comments about my Catholic faith and I have responded in truth. My comments are not snarky at all.
I know you are no fan of the Catholic Church from some of your past comments. I happen to disagree with you and love my faith. As a priest once said during a homily, they can take away everything from us except our faith.
The Church has made some mistakes but so have all religions. I have met some unkind priests and nuns, but the overwhelming majority are kind and caring individuals and this is one of the many reasons I remain a Catholic. They give up a lot to tend to their flock. It is my rock. There is a reason why we have so many members (1.2 billion) so we must be doing something right. The Episcopal church's membership is minuscule in comparison. That is a fact.
Please NYT print my reply.
First, the Episcopalians have made some pretty snarky comments about my Catholic faith and I have responded in truth. My comments are not snarky at all.
I know you are no fan of the Catholic Church from some of your past comments. I happen to disagree with you and love my faith. As a priest once said during a homily, they can take away everything from us except our faith.
The Church has made some mistakes but so have all religions. I have met some unkind priests and nuns, but the overwhelming majority are kind and caring individuals and this is one of the many reasons I remain a Catholic. They give up a lot to tend to their flock. It is my rock. There is a reason why we have so many members (1.2 billion) so we must be doing something right. The Episcopal church's membership is minuscule in comparison. That is a fact.
Please NYT print my reply.
3
The Pope is still blowing smoke. He still has done nothing about the thousands of his Priests and Bishops who have raped tens of thousands of young boys.
Part of the problem here in the United States is the media, including the New York Times, has given the Catholic Church a free ride. Why don't the Editors of the Times demand that the Pope come clean about this vile institutionalized child rape? They have written more Editorials on the rights of gay people, which I support, than on the rights of young boys not to be raped.
Part of the problem here in the United States is the media, including the New York Times, has given the Catholic Church a free ride. Why don't the Editors of the Times demand that the Pope come clean about this vile institutionalized child rape? They have written more Editorials on the rights of gay people, which I support, than on the rights of young boys not to be raped.
45
"Part of the problem here in the United States is the media, including the New York Times, has given the Catholic Church a free ride."
One of the most ridiculous statements ever made in the NY Times comments section. The media has done almost nothing but report on the clergy sex scandals for over 25 years. Much of it was justified. The coverage is total and all encompassing.
One of the most ridiculous statements ever made in the NY Times comments section. The media has done almost nothing but report on the clergy sex scandals for over 25 years. Much of it was justified. The coverage is total and all encompassing.
3
The Pope's new teaching is consistent with the long rabbinical tradition that Jesus and his preaching came out of. Jesus said his mission wasn't to change the law but to fulfill it. As his great contemporary, Hillel the Elder said of the Law, "What is hateful to you, do not do to your fellow: this is the whole Law; the rest is the explanation; go and learn." The Jesuits, the closest thing in Catholicism to the rabbinical tradition, are at the core of Francis's intellectual life. It demands scholarship, humility, discernment and thought, not a slavish devotion to doctrine. As Jesus quoted Hosea "For I desire mercy, not sacrifice, and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings." This is the desire to recognize the work of the Lord in all lives and all situations. The long Jewish tradition we have grown from is the root of that, with Jesus among his fellow rabbis struggling to make the law relevant to the lives of people very much like ourselves. Francis brings us back to this struggle. Some will say he went to far; others not far enough, but it is truly a breath of fresh air nonetheless.
38
The Holy Father has managed to annoy both liberal Catholics as well as conservative Catholics. It seems to this observer that a wise, humble, welcoming pastoral would be far more serviceable than the usual harsh and dogmatic approach to the standard catechism. We finally have a pope who recognizes the pressures of contemporary living, one who has compassion for the single mother, for the isolated single, for those who lean towards those of their own sex for acceptance and human warmth. If this last, for example, doesn't go far enough to include "family," at least Pope Francis isn't outlawing LGBT citizens of the crime of being what they are and cannot otherwise be. One cannot change one's nature; God made us who we are, and if it didn't annoy Him, why should it drive us to harsh extremes of judgment? Nowhere in Holy Scripture does Christ mention homosexuality. Paul does in his many epistles, but Paul is not Christ. In many of his letters, the great apostle has, for two millennia, shooed away those who would follow Christ as far as they humanly can while opening the door to those who would, without no interpretative license, condemn others.
We see the humanity of Pope Francis from afar; would that his generosity would find nurturing soil in America, especially in this tortured country's political and social debates.
We see the humanity of Pope Francis from afar; would that his generosity would find nurturing soil in America, especially in this tortured country's political and social debates.
40
So much to comment on in this proclamation, but let me start with the phrase irregular’ situations. This is a strange way to describe 'living in sin'. These irregular’ situations contradict the natural order. Anything outside the natural order is sin, at least that is what I learned from Catholic theology in college. Dragging 'culture and sensitive to traditions and local needs' in effect denies the 'natural order'. The natural order does not change due to diversity and complexity. It is what it is, unchanging. It seems Francis is one step short of a nihilistic approach to replacing all Catholic doctrine. 'Joy of Love' is putting the Church on a dangerous path to nihilism, and making all things relative to a persons interpenetration of what their living’ situation is. The lay 'faithful' will have major issues with Amoris Laettia. This document will send many Catholic theology schools over the cliff. Apostolic exhortation? No, it is opening the door to a new schism in the Catholic Church.
1
'Natural' as you declare is what naturally is: I was born trans without help from anyone. Therefore I'm natural, what God made me: you would exclude me for no reason but to placate your phobias.
Truly, get off your knees, pick up a science book, and learn some actual knowledge.
Truly, get off your knees, pick up a science book, and learn some actual knowledge.
3
News flash: homosexuality is a naturally occurring form of sexual orientation therefore it's part of Nature. We live in the 21st century.
3
Who defines what the natural order is? Do animals choose to practice homosexuality? Bisexual and homosexual behavior occurs in many species, so how is it not part of the natural order? Females are dominant in some species so is that not part of the natural order? If a religion is to have any kind of meaning, it must speak directly to the real moral concerns of real human beings. The teachings of Christ were revolutionary, affirming the dignity of the lowliest person as equal to that of the highest. How is a human institution which sets up an elaborate system of rules and then proclaims who is in and who is out Christian?
2
This is just another example of what a few centuries of science, modernity, and secular politics can do to moderate the immoral, man-made religious dogmas of the world.
It’s clear to anyone with eyes to see that “progress” and “moderation” in religion is the direct result of secular knowledge, pluralistic moral progress and, most importantly of all, scriptural ignorance.
It’s clear to anyone with eyes to see that “progress” and “moderation” in religion is the direct result of secular knowledge, pluralistic moral progress and, most importantly of all, scriptural ignorance.
15
It seems this pope is a genuine Christian.
8
St. Francis of Assisi Prophecy:
“A Man, not Canonically Elected, will be raised to the Pontificate… In those days Jesus Christ will send them not a true Pastor, but a Destroyer.”
“A Man, not Canonically Elected, will be raised to the Pontificate… In those days Jesus Christ will send them not a true Pastor, but a Destroyer.”
3
Really? Oh wait! I forgot that the RCC is stuck in the 13th century. So of course that's the latest dope on the pope...
@Michael - That "prophecy" is irrelevant here, as Pope Francis was duly elected. Perhaps you're thinking of the time when there were 2 Popes at the same time in the 13th century.
1
I think Francis can be a great influence for good, but, as he shows here, he is quite willing to bow to the demands of the reactionaries in his organization.
As long as women are kept out of the priesthood, as long as priests are forbidden to marry, the Church will remain clueless and a source of oppression.
Were the child rapes that the bishops covered up a result of the demand for unmarried priests? I don't know. Does Francis? Does he have any idea how well or poorly the unmarried priests are dealing with married couples and divorce?
As long as women are kept out of the priesthood, as long as priests are forbidden to marry, the Church will remain clueless and a source of oppression.
Were the child rapes that the bishops covered up a result of the demand for unmarried priests? I don't know. Does Francis? Does he have any idea how well or poorly the unmarried priests are dealing with married couples and divorce?
35
Once again, the Catholic Church is the last institution in the world to figure things out. It always has to be pushed by secular, civil society to expand the circles of compassion.
Few, if any, people care whether the church holds them in "good standing" to receive "communion." It is kind of meaningless.
A religious institution should help people gain insight, expand their own range of compassion, and navigate the stages of life. The Catholic Church still makes it impossible for progressive, fact-based, intellectually-honest people to be part of it.
Few, if any, people care whether the church holds them in "good standing" to receive "communion." It is kind of meaningless.
A religious institution should help people gain insight, expand their own range of compassion, and navigate the stages of life. The Catholic Church still makes it impossible for progressive, fact-based, intellectually-honest people to be part of it.
10
The infallibility of Catholic Dogma was at test one more time, this time on the very issues that created so much turmoil at all the mainline Christian denominations:
Sexual Morality vs Counterfeits, Conservationists vs the not so Christian Liberalists, Biblical Standard vs Reforms intending to accommodate God's mandates to a post-modern pagan society.
As a former Catholic, turned into Newborn Christian and now on my first steps back to mature Catholicism it was good to witness how Jesus Christ was at work protecting the dogma of His Church.
Pope Francis "Amoris Laetitia" an Apostolic Exhortation a document that meet the requirements established of the First Vatican Council as a pronouncement, is Infallible teaching on these controversial issues.
Sexual Morality vs Counterfeits, Conservationists vs the not so Christian Liberalists, Biblical Standard vs Reforms intending to accommodate God's mandates to a post-modern pagan society.
As a former Catholic, turned into Newborn Christian and now on my first steps back to mature Catholicism it was good to witness how Jesus Christ was at work protecting the dogma of His Church.
Pope Francis "Amoris Laetitia" an Apostolic Exhortation a document that meet the requirements established of the First Vatican Council as a pronouncement, is Infallible teaching on these controversial issues.
You are mistaken. This "Exhortation" contains no language that would indicate that it is intended to contain any infallible definition with respect to faith or morals. It requires very specific language to indicate that intent. The last time that happened without doubt is 1950. "When the Roman Pontiff speaks ex cathedra, that is, when, in the exercise of his office as shepherd and teacher of all Christians, in virtue of his supreme apostolic authority, he defines a doctrine concerning faith or morals to be held by the whole Church, he possesses, by the divine assistance promised to him in blessed Peter, that infallibility which the divine Redeemer willed his Church to enjoy in defining doctrine concerning faith or morals. Therefore, such definitions of the Roman Pontiff are of themselves, and not by the consent of the Church, irreformable." (Dogmatic Constitution on the Church of Christ--Vatican I)
1
Too little, too late:
My mother was never able to fully participate in the life of the Catholic Church after she married my father, a Lutheran. She was a widow and wanted a family. My parents were married for over 30 years until their deaths from old age. My mother raised me as a Catholic and we attended mass with my grandfather. Yet the Roman Catholic Church never forgave my parents for marrying outside the "blessings" of the church.
When I became old enough to understand what was going on I left the church. I no long believe in a deity and want no part of the church that rejected my family.
So to Pope Francis I say that this so called "less judgmental church" is too little and too late for my parents they are dead and gone.
I would want no part of church that still cannot bring itself to be inclusive of all people and now fully realize that there is no afterlife or deity anyway. It's all just superstition and manipulation by the elites.
There is no "pie and sky by and by" so the poor had better raise up and demand their rights here on earth in this life.
My mother was never able to fully participate in the life of the Catholic Church after she married my father, a Lutheran. She was a widow and wanted a family. My parents were married for over 30 years until their deaths from old age. My mother raised me as a Catholic and we attended mass with my grandfather. Yet the Roman Catholic Church never forgave my parents for marrying outside the "blessings" of the church.
When I became old enough to understand what was going on I left the church. I no long believe in a deity and want no part of the church that rejected my family.
So to Pope Francis I say that this so called "less judgmental church" is too little and too late for my parents they are dead and gone.
I would want no part of church that still cannot bring itself to be inclusive of all people and now fully realize that there is no afterlife or deity anyway. It's all just superstition and manipulation by the elites.
There is no "pie and sky by and by" so the poor had better raise up and demand their rights here on earth in this life.
19
If you don't believe in an afterlife or deity, then isn't this all irrelevant to you? And since what happened to your parents was many decades ago, what can Pope Francis do about it now?
It seems some people are just determined to be angry and unforgiving, and there's nothing anyone can say or do to change that.
As for the poor, the Catholic Church, its many charitable organizations, thousands of priests, brothers, and sisters, and millions of laypeople are working all over the world - including the most poverty-stricken and dangerous parts of the world - advocating for and providing direct assistance to the poor.
It seems some people are just determined to be angry and unforgiving, and there's nothing anyone can say or do to change that.
As for the poor, the Catholic Church, its many charitable organizations, thousands of priests, brothers, and sisters, and millions of laypeople are working all over the world - including the most poverty-stricken and dangerous parts of the world - advocating for and providing direct assistance to the poor.
2
This organization has always made up their own rules depending upon the money & politics involved at any given time. A walled city protecting the pope while he tells America we should pay & let in hundreds of thousands of middle eastern immigrants. Hey pope, call Germany-how's that working?
6
Very nice thoughts that I applaud. However it will take more than words to turn the Roman Catholic Church around in the US and elsewhere. I'll believe it when I see a number of Cardinals, Archbishops and Bishops as well as Seminary Dean retire early. The Papal Nuncio is gone - time for more to follow.
As an Episcopal priest I have presided at the marriages of many couples - straight and gay. People marry people - the Church blesses them (or not) and the State recognizes it legally (or not). At marriages I act as a dual agent - for the Church and for the State. I would be much more comfortable letting the State handle the legal side of the marriage and the Church handling the spiritual side. It works in Europe and England, why not here?
As an Episcopal priest I have presided at the marriages of many couples - straight and gay. People marry people - the Church blesses them (or not) and the State recognizes it legally (or not). At marriages I act as a dual agent - for the Church and for the State. I would be much more comfortable letting the State handle the legal side of the marriage and the Church handling the spiritual side. It works in Europe and England, why not here?
14
What a disappointment Pope Francis didn't take even a tiny step toward freeing the women of the world from the church's ban on contraception.
33
@Madeline - Why does any woman need "freeing" by the Catholic Church regarding contraception? Women need only follow their conscience and visit their doctor. Decades ago, many parish priests were already counseling couples to use their own judgement on such matters.
@lotusflower
Your words are true in the United States. However, in some other parts of the world contraception is very difficult or impossible for women to acquire, due largely to the powerful influence of the Catholic Church. This has caused terrible hardship and many unnecessary deaths.
Your words are true in the United States. However, in some other parts of the world contraception is very difficult or impossible for women to acquire, due largely to the powerful influence of the Catholic Church. This has caused terrible hardship and many unnecessary deaths.
1
Giving communion to divorcee's is nothing compared to harboring criminals, like Bernard Law.
18
“I think it’s an ill-judged shift,” Mr. Reno said. “This document clearly opens up the possibility that a priest may determine that a divorced and remarried person is worthy to receive communion, but under what terms and why is muddy.”
Yes, Love can be muddy.
Yes, Love can be muddy.
4
I love this pope and genuinely feel the love he projects. These edicts are wonderful and necessary half-measures that inch the church away from its embrace pedophilia and corruption, and misogyny, homophobia and other forms of hatred, but the church has miles to go before I, and many others, get anywhere near it.
3
This statement continues Francis's legacy of focusing on changing the tone, rather than doctrine. In liberal Catholic churches, the priests and nuns have been welcoming all comers for decades without judgment, meeting them where they are. By endorsing this approach, Francis is making the Vatican's voice relevant to laypersons and hopefully is nudging the conservative priests towards a more open and welcoming church. Now we need him to forcefully address the sex abuse scandals, which he has not aggressively tackled yet.
7
After reading this Papal Exhortation, I am impressed by the scope and the brilliance of the thought and language. There is a lot of good in it. Many people, gay and straight, will not feel this work was as inclusive or embracing as it could have been. Anyone seeking to marry must have a license from the state. It is a legal contract. The Church is free to bless and sacramentalize marriage, but it is ,first and foremost, civil in nature.
33
Brilliance? He is saying in effect that any marriage that is not for the purpose of procreating is illegitimate.
Dear Rev Henry,
Read the entire piece. There is a lot in it that is right and good. Not everything, I agree. But parts of it are brilliantly written.
Read the entire piece. There is a lot in it that is right and good. Not everything, I agree. But parts of it are brilliantly written.
1
The civil marriage exists since 16th century approximately, the ecclesiastical marriage probably have the same age of Christian Church.
It is not just so called " liberal catholics" who should be disappointed but anyone who truly thought Francis was going to be a REFORMER Pope. In this new document we can already write the "obituary" on the Francis Papacy. A change of style without substance. Someone should have informed him "leaders lead" they just don't put on a good show.
Even with his ABSOLUTE power over Church doctrine and policy Francis is unwilling to make even literally "trivial" changes such as allowing abortions when both the mother and fetus are in danger of dying let alone just one of the two or simple stating the Church should not "judge" those who take Communion.
The irony is that although the dinosaurs in the Church many cardinals and bishops would criticize even savage him for any real policy change ALL FRANCIS NEEDED TO DO TO JUSTIFY CHANGE is say "I look upon the work of the Church in the context of what would Jesus do if He was here with us today and not over 2000 years ago and it is clear to me the kind of Church He would want from us here in the 21st century and it is very different."
Instead Pope Francis is worshiping at the Altar of the Status Quo.
Even with his ABSOLUTE power over Church doctrine and policy Francis is unwilling to make even literally "trivial" changes such as allowing abortions when both the mother and fetus are in danger of dying let alone just one of the two or simple stating the Church should not "judge" those who take Communion.
The irony is that although the dinosaurs in the Church many cardinals and bishops would criticize even savage him for any real policy change ALL FRANCIS NEEDED TO DO TO JUSTIFY CHANGE is say "I look upon the work of the Church in the context of what would Jesus do if He was here with us today and not over 2000 years ago and it is clear to me the kind of Church He would want from us here in the 21st century and it is very different."
Instead Pope Francis is worshiping at the Altar of the Status Quo.
17
How many women participated in this 'Amoris Laetitia'...Oh silly me . The church doesn't recognize the value of women.
Nothing has changed. Just more of the same packaged under better PR. This pope has done what he was put there to do, clean up after Benedict, and put focus elsewhere and not all the garbage the church is involved in. Let's start with the Vatican Bank , the awful situation with the priests, the gay club which existed within the vatican...and on and on and on.
Nothing has changed. Just more of the same packaged under better PR. This pope has done what he was put there to do, clean up after Benedict, and put focus elsewhere and not all the garbage the church is involved in. Let's start with the Vatican Bank , the awful situation with the priests, the gay club which existed within the vatican...and on and on and on.
47
@Angeli - True, the Church is nowhere near allowing women into the priesthood. But to his credit the Pope did end the ridiculous monitoring of the Sisters by some fuddy-duddy Archbishop very soon after his election.
2
Pope Francis is definitely the finest pope I've seen in my life, and pretty much the best one I've ever heard of. He's a pope I'd be proud to call pop. These modernizing moves, while long overdue, will make it far easier for people to stay Catholic and still be able to do what real life forces them to do.
There's still a ways to go of course, like accepting same-sex marriage, contraception, female priests, and so on. But this is a promising sign of potential future accommodations, and it's great to see the Catholic church finally maturing.
There's still a ways to go of course, like accepting same-sex marriage, contraception, female priests, and so on. But this is a promising sign of potential future accommodations, and it's great to see the Catholic church finally maturing.
5
Nicely said.
2
A splendid example of a theologian's writing!
Aquinas would be pleased with the prolixity used to express very simple ideas.
Aquinas would be pleased with the prolixity used to express very simple ideas.
2
You want to really help and make change? Give the OK to using contraception.
30
Unfortunately for the millions of gays and lesbians on this planet, the Pope's message leaves them last in line as he affirms the church stand that their relationships are subordinate to hetero-centric principles. Just imagine what reading this when you woke up this morning actually feels like.
5
I married outside of the Catholic faith -- and am raising my kids Catholic. In fact, we have first communion in a few weeks. And I take communion because I believe it's the body and blood -- and I don't believe the Church should interfere with my taking the body and blood. To me, the divorced Catholics are in the same place. Why should a victim of domestic abuse -- verbal, physical or whatever type of abuse -- be forced to pick whether she gets the body and blood weekly or whether she leaves an abusive relationship?
When we were married, priests were abusing children and lying about it. I just stood up and said I couldn't be a part of that. I've struggled with it but I still like the complexity of Catholicism and am staying with it. Hopefully, one day, the Vatican will cease forcing Catholics to marry in the church in exchange for receiving the holy communion.
When we were married, priests were abusing children and lying about it. I just stood up and said I couldn't be a part of that. I've struggled with it but I still like the complexity of Catholicism and am staying with it. Hopefully, one day, the Vatican will cease forcing Catholics to marry in the church in exchange for receiving the holy communion.
7
I applaud the pope for setting a merciful and forgiving tone for the church. It's a start - an eloquent pushback against the dogmatic, narrow-minded wing of the Catholic hierarchy who would settle for a smaller, more "devout" and "submissive" congregation rather than a loving accommodation to the unstoppable realities of modernity.
7
Let's face it... we US Catholics won't know what to think until Ross Douthat tells us. Ross ... get to writin'
2
While Pope Francis is gradually pulling the Church in a more humanist and relevant direction, the ban on contraception continues. Until that is lifted, the Church bears responsibility for much of the overpopulation, poverty, and misery in many parts of the developing world.
66
Are you saying that people in poverty and people in developing countries are not capable of making decisions for themselves? I'm sure some have "relations", without being married, so some of them are not sheep.
1
Michael, we're saying that women are UNABLE TO ACQUIRE contraception in countries where the church has powerful influence on government. And, contrary to the fevered imagination of many moralists, most of the women who desperately need contraception are married women who already have children.
2
Not saying that at all, Michael. A substantial portion of American Catholics ignore the ban on contraceptives, but in areas of the developing world (e.g., Latin America), strict adherence to Church doctrine is more common.
The Church fiddling with my private life. Thanks but no thanks.
Mr. Pope, please focus on child rape by your deputies; and please catch them when they are still alive. Get the point!?!
Mr. Pope, please focus on child rape by your deputies; and please catch them when they are still alive. Get the point!?!
30
It will be interesting to note how certain groups of American Christians – or, radical, dangerous fundamentalists, as they’re largely viewed by Europeans, and especially the emboldened religious fundamentalists currently busy snaking their way through American politics – react to the Pope’s latest deeds.
Given that someone like Ted Cruz is viewed over here as not just a bad politician, but as a religious fundamentalist (how many days do you think any politician would last in power here if they told people that they prayed to God for six hours before ‘understanding’ that God wanted them to run for president?), the Pope’s general teachings are increasingly at odds with the singular brand of Christian extremism that’s on the insidious rise in America, of late.
While falling short on certain topics – as a gay guy, I’m not very surprised that he’s not exactly rolling out the red carpet for gay people, and The Church (but, meh, he’s been pretty fair-handed otherwise, and seems like a pretty decent Pope, as popes go) – he’s warmly regarded over here. However, the growing rift with America’s brand of deeply, profoundly unchristian Christians threatens to turn into a schism.
As such, it will be most interesting to see how The Usual Suspects in American publishing, media and politics react to this document...
Given that someone like Ted Cruz is viewed over here as not just a bad politician, but as a religious fundamentalist (how many days do you think any politician would last in power here if they told people that they prayed to God for six hours before ‘understanding’ that God wanted them to run for president?), the Pope’s general teachings are increasingly at odds with the singular brand of Christian extremism that’s on the insidious rise in America, of late.
While falling short on certain topics – as a gay guy, I’m not very surprised that he’s not exactly rolling out the red carpet for gay people, and The Church (but, meh, he’s been pretty fair-handed otherwise, and seems like a pretty decent Pope, as popes go) – he’s warmly regarded over here. However, the growing rift with America’s brand of deeply, profoundly unchristian Christians threatens to turn into a schism.
As such, it will be most interesting to see how The Usual Suspects in American publishing, media and politics react to this document...
13
If you're in Dublin, and sincerely asking, I don't think the pope's words will make much of a difference at all. Fundamentalist Protestant sects genuinely don't care what the pope thinks or says. Coming from a majority Catholic country I think you'd be surprised at how very little the pope means to Fundamentalist sects or even very mainstream Protestants in the United States. He's just not a figure of any importance in their lives.
It's not bravado or rebellion. The pope just never had any authority with them.
It's not bravado or rebellion. The pope just never had any authority with them.
3
I am a priest in the Episcopal Church and a admirer of the direction that Pope Francis is leading the Roman Catholic Church and Christianity in. However, after reading the buildup the past two days and then reading the actual "changes" for divorced Roman Catholic's I am genuinely underwhelmed. The language in "Amoris Laetitia" was indeed welcoming, BUT the actual changes were near non existent.
Anybody else get this sense too?
Anybody else get this sense too?
92
Father joyful,
If they are unhappy in the Catholic Church, they can join your faith. I think you need more members.
If they are unhappy in the Catholic Church, they can join your faith. I think you need more members.
2
The Episcopal church has been doing it's own thing since it was created by Henry the VIII. Why are you concerned with what the Catholic Church is or isn't doing?
3
Hundreds of years of prejudice against the "Other" cannot be undone fast. How do you convince people who've based their very lives on excluding so many not like them?
He is a truly modern pope: good publicity is all that's needed. Actual reform: not so much. Frankly, his putting a sweet face on a nasty religion is even worse.
Read Nat Turner's Rebellion to see that the very worst people are the ones who are the nicest to those they would oppress.
Call it what it is:
He is a truly modern pope: good publicity is all that's needed. Actual reform: not so much. Frankly, his putting a sweet face on a nasty religion is even worse.
Read Nat Turner's Rebellion to see that the very worst people are the ones who are the nicest to those they would oppress.
Call it what it is:
1
I didn't have high expectations. But only someone — gay or straight — who's happy to mindlessly beg for a scrap from the Roman Catholic table could call this "a triumph." When people are thrown under the bus, there's nothing to celebrate.
19
Now I'm wondering how long it'll take for Trump and Cruz, the fascist and the theocrat, to loudly condemn the Pope's initiative. I'd bet Trump will be first, as he has a feud going with the Pope.
6
And what is the response of the democrats? Don't throw stones if you live in an amoral house.
2
If you want communion as a divorced Catholic just go to the altar and receive it. No one asks, no one stops you. Many divorced and remarried Catholics just restrain themselves, and that's honorable but the merely divorced and not yet remarried face no impediments whatsoever.
15
Indeed, I want to lie to the church and to God in order to take the sacrament ? Ostrich theory.
A priest tried to stop my mother from naming me as she did, saying it wasn’t a holy name. And there I was, doomed for life, because my mother went ahead and named me her choice anyway. Like most Catholics, she was intuitively ok with her own life as she lived it, thereby always having some distance with the church, but still loving it in many ways. It’s great to see a Pope make realistic, humanitarian adjustments that show the open arms of Jesus’ story, vs closed minds. It might also be a brilliant counter-point to the religious violence we are seeing.
13
Dear God, grant us a future devoid of churches and temples and mosques, where human beings will communicate with you in private and civil society will be the law of the land.
32
dear god, grant us a future where people no longer feel th need to enslave themselves to an invisible man in th sky
1
Everyone already can pray in private, but communal prayer offers its own benefits as well. Avoid it if you wish, but don't dismiss the benefits for those who appreciate them.
3
It is amazing that divorced people and others of whom the church "disapproves" continue to show up at Mass and support the church. Why would any person choose to be a member of a club that takes an unfavorable and judgmental view of him or her? Even sadder is when an individual remains in a destructive marriage or denies themselves companionship or happiness all because of blind adherence to centuries-old silly rules perpetuated by old bachelors who wear funny clothes.
Divorced people and "sinners" of all stripes: free up your Sunday mornings. Leave the church. Pursue happiness. And communion wafers don't taste very good anyway, and sharing a cup of wine with 200 other people is gross. Sit outside and enjoy a coffee and doughnut on Sunday morning instead.
Divorced people and "sinners" of all stripes: free up your Sunday mornings. Leave the church. Pursue happiness. And communion wafers don't taste very good anyway, and sharing a cup of wine with 200 other people is gross. Sit outside and enjoy a coffee and doughnut on Sunday morning instead.
11
Who cares at this point? A way to salvage what is left of the Catholic Church.
2
I'm not Catholic; in fact, I'm not religious, but I appreciate that Pope Francis has gone this far. Of course, I'm disappointed that he stopped short by not including gay couples, but I think that the day will come when the Catholic Church will welcome gay families--in fact, many local parishes do. But, they do need to have formal recognition to be truly welcome into the Church.
I only wish Protestant denominations would follow suit. Some Protestant ministers actually preach hate from the pulpit, and urge their congregations to judge and shun those who do not meet their standards. These practices are not Christian and make a mockery of Christ's teaching. If they are truly the believers they profess to be, these Protestant congregations need to open their hearts and really accept the spirit of Christ.
I only wish Protestant denominations would follow suit. Some Protestant ministers actually preach hate from the pulpit, and urge their congregations to judge and shun those who do not meet their standards. These practices are not Christian and make a mockery of Christ's teaching. If they are truly the believers they profess to be, these Protestant congregations need to open their hearts and really accept the spirit of Christ.
2
There are many (if not most) Protestant congregations and indeed entire denominations that have been open and "welcoming" for decades. Women are ordained, openly gay people are ordained and serving congregations, same-sex weddings are celebrated, birth control is not an issue...
Don't confuse evangelicals with mainstream Protestant denominations.
Don't confuse evangelicals with mainstream Protestant denominations.
Pope Francis truly knows Jesus and his lessons, not only written, but his guidance.
1
Maybe the Catholic Church should not be such hypocrites.
How about let everyone chose their sexual preference, as long as it doesn't involve underage children? They sure don't seem to want to discuss their issue with underage boys or girls, just those of same-sex, consenting adults.
With all the hate in the world.....
How about let everyone chose their sexual preference, as long as it doesn't involve underage children? They sure don't seem to want to discuss their issue with underage boys or girls, just those of same-sex, consenting adults.
With all the hate in the world.....
2
I sincerely believe that the idea of conscience is fictitious.
2
this is from th movie, th onion field
Det. Sgt. Pierce R. Brooks: Has your conscience ever bothered you? Like feeling - guilty?
Jimmy Smith: Mr. Brooks... I believe... I think that is something that rich white guys dreamed up to keep guys like me down. I honestly don't believe there is such a thing... such a feeling. Guilty? That's just something the Man says in court when your luck runs out.
Det. Sgt. Pierce R. Brooks: Has your conscience ever bothered you? Like feeling - guilty?
Jimmy Smith: Mr. Brooks... I believe... I think that is something that rich white guys dreamed up to keep guys like me down. I honestly don't believe there is such a thing... such a feeling. Guilty? That's just something the Man says in court when your luck runs out.
1
Thank you to the Times for summarizing the Pope's message. His message gives me hope that we will see a international Church with priests better educated about the needs of families and about their own psychology. It is unfortunate but not surprising that his message regarding birth control appears to focus on preventing unwanted pregnancy rather than a more broad understanding about how birth control can prevent disease and support a families financial wellbeing. In some parts of the world where HIV continues to ravage communities the churches failure to take responsibility for a doctrine that undermines families continues to disappoint.
2
Francis is enmeshed in the rules and traditions of the Catholic Church, matters that often have little to do with the Gospel message.
Commentaries on his letter highlight words like "imperfect" Catholics, and that such people "cannot be condemned forever." Basic Christian doctrine says we are all imperfect, and that this imperfection necessitated the redeeming death of Christ. As for condemnation, I recall the words: "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone..."
But old men, whether in the Roman Curia or in Red State government, will cast stones all around them.
Commentaries on his letter highlight words like "imperfect" Catholics, and that such people "cannot be condemned forever." Basic Christian doctrine says we are all imperfect, and that this imperfection necessitated the redeeming death of Christ. As for condemnation, I recall the words: "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone..."
But old men, whether in the Roman Curia or in Red State government, will cast stones all around them.
7
FOR POPE FRANCIS’ YEAR OF MERCY
The Good Samaritan
In a land beleaguered by strife,
Kept peaceful by whip, lash, and knife,
A lawyer (at best)
Put Christ to the test:
“What’s binding for eternal life?”
“What rule does Moses’ law give?”
(For a moment his mind was a sieve.)
“Love God with my being
And all whom I’m seeing.”
You’re right. If you do this, you’ll live.
In a land besmirched by slave labor,
Kept tranquil by whip, lash, and saber,
The nifty reply
Made him self-justify:
“Okay, then, but who is my neighbor?”
“A man packing salt, wine, and rugs
Exchanged connubial hugs,
Then traveling below
To old Jericho
Was waylaid by murderous thugs.
“They stripped him and left him for dead.
(In truth, he was breathing instead.)
A Levite passed by,
Then a learned rabbi—
So much for the chic and well-bred.
“A Samaritan traveling by night
Heard moaning that gave him a fright.
His general state
Was to commiserate,
So he stopped for the pitiful sight.
“He washed him, then brought him by pack
To an inn off the far-beaten track:
‘Take care of him well,
For my friend’s been through hell.
Here's silver from out my knapsack. ‘
“Of three so-called neighbors in name,
Who raises his head without shame?”
“The one who won’t ration
His human compassion.”
“Then go now, and you do the same”
Joseph Roccasalvo
The Good Samaritan
In a land beleaguered by strife,
Kept peaceful by whip, lash, and knife,
A lawyer (at best)
Put Christ to the test:
“What’s binding for eternal life?”
“What rule does Moses’ law give?”
(For a moment his mind was a sieve.)
“Love God with my being
And all whom I’m seeing.”
You’re right. If you do this, you’ll live.
In a land besmirched by slave labor,
Kept tranquil by whip, lash, and saber,
The nifty reply
Made him self-justify:
“Okay, then, but who is my neighbor?”
“A man packing salt, wine, and rugs
Exchanged connubial hugs,
Then traveling below
To old Jericho
Was waylaid by murderous thugs.
“They stripped him and left him for dead.
(In truth, he was breathing instead.)
A Levite passed by,
Then a learned rabbi—
So much for the chic and well-bred.
“A Samaritan traveling by night
Heard moaning that gave him a fright.
His general state
Was to commiserate,
So he stopped for the pitiful sight.
“He washed him, then brought him by pack
To an inn off the far-beaten track:
‘Take care of him well,
For my friend’s been through hell.
Here's silver from out my knapsack. ‘
“Of three so-called neighbors in name,
Who raises his head without shame?”
“The one who won’t ration
His human compassion.”
“Then go now, and you do the same”
Joseph Roccasalvo
4
Way to go, Francis! A gentle genius.
5
Thank you for this piece. Pope Francis, judging as he "urge[s] less judgment", reminds me why I am an atheist.
6
One way to look at the Catholic Church is that it was the first international corporation that has yielded tremendous influence and money. Under its current CEO Pope Francis, now, it is going through rapid modernization. Pope Francis, if he can survive long enough, may ultimately bring the Catholic Church into the 21st Century and let it grow into a much bigger tent than what it is now. There are many people out there- gays, divorcees, etc. who desire to belong to the Church but are having the door shut on their faces.
4
What many people do not understand is that the pope is not a dictator, he cannot rule by fiat, he is a pastor. As a wise pastor Francis has to listen to his bishops, who are supposed to represent the people of God, in making decisions. It is clear from his past comments and actions that he embraces gay people, and, I am sure would want to do more, but had he ruled against the majority of bishops he would have risked schism. And Francis is a builder of bridges not a destroyer of them. It is critical to see his words in the context of history. For a pope to publicly embrace gay and transgender people is hugely significant. This is a first step not a final one.
13
Pope to Catholics: Those hundreds of years we discriminated against the "other"?
Yea, uh, forget that. Now, actually, gay people are NOT evil. Do not purge or destroy them. Etc. Really.
What? You don't agree? You must: I'm infallible!
Yea, uh, forget that. Now, actually, gay people are NOT evil. Do not purge or destroy them. Etc. Really.
What? You don't agree? You must: I'm infallible!
4
Pity Pope Francis is as concerned with getting child-molesters out of the priesthood (worldwide) as he is in getting divorcees (worldwide) back into their clutches...
3
So, the Holy Father has managed to annoy both liberal Catholics and conservative Catholics. This would, it appears to me, to demonstrate a pastoral message that is all-encompassing in its embrace, welcome, and non-judgmental acknowledgement of the pressures of coping contemporary human living.
As did Christ, Pope Francis does not cast a stone. Why should we?
As did Christ, Pope Francis does not cast a stone. Why should we?
5
I don't practice any religion since too many people over the centuries have been murdered, imprisoned, tortured, abused, and discriminated against through the teachings of most religions. What divorce has to do with practicing religion still alludes me. I applaud Pope Francis' willingness to discuss the topic but I don't see it going anywhere since conservatives seem to be driving not only politics but religions these days also. Need I mention ISIS.
25
I think it's great that this Pope is "call[ing] for priests to welcome single parents, gay people and unmarried straight couples who are living together." Kind of makes you wonder, though, why priests have to be educated on such elementary topics as tolerance and respect for your fellow, fallible human travelers.
Just another day that I thank my lucky stars that no man dressed like he's going to a Renaissance Fair has ever had a say in what I do or think. Religion is the universe's longest-running practical joke on humanity. Maybe some day, parents will stop sending their children through the door, just to see the large bucket of superstition dumped all over them.
Just another day that I thank my lucky stars that no man dressed like he's going to a Renaissance Fair has ever had a say in what I do or think. Religion is the universe's longest-running practical joke on humanity. Maybe some day, parents will stop sending their children through the door, just to see the large bucket of superstition dumped all over them.
111
If the Catholic Church really cared about its people, it would have dealt with the issue of clergy-initiated sexual abuse more aggressively. For me and many others who were baptized and raised in this church, it's been over for a very long time already. The pronunciamentos from the Vatican have been a stunning irrelevancy for many, who have decided to ignore the manmade strictures and structures of the church in favor of a personal relationship with the Deity.
20
I don't understand why so many Catholics fail to see the logic in the fact that an annulment is required to satisfy Matthew 19:6-9 through the authority granted the Church in Matthew 16:9. The Church has many obscure doctrinal points but this is NOT one of them. Contrary to the leading hype there are no doctrinal changes, however the calls for "localized interpretation of doctrine in light of cultural norms" is extremely problematic and sure to lead to many abuses. Vatican II did not mandate the vernacular, Versus Populum instead of Ad Orientem or the destruction of countless works of Catholic architectural art but we got those anyway "in light of cultural norms". It's just another way for the Pope to endorse relativism by way of dressing it up as mercy - which is no different than what G.W.B. (of all people!) called "the soft bigotry of low expectations". If the Church treats it's members differently in Hamburg, Boston, and New York than it's members in Dakar, Rio and Manila it is no longer universal and no longer Catholic. Not only that but by way of differentiation is stating that not all members are equally capable of living a Christian life which is a refutation of Mark 9:23. It will be interesting to see how this plays out, though my guess is that both Orthodox and Progressive will run with it in opposite directions, all the while claiming "victory".
2
Not enough. Not on equality for same-sex couples, nor for women's rights, well, basically in every realm of life, including in the church's hierarchy. They NEED to understand that patriarchy is so 16th Century.
244
Hate is a funny thing; it causes people to yell, "not enough" when they, themselves want their own myopic beliefs promulgated upon the rest instantly and suddenly. Hate causes you to yell, "they need" when one should be asking, "we" and "us." I'm tired of the alleged enlightened liberal view that the NYT seems to promote until there is a stance that is "against" their views, then all we have is hate, hate, and more hate and it simply doesn't seem to matter left or right. It's so easy when it's me and my arrogant, self-centered, all consuming world view, well "Lisa" the world is much bigger than you and there were good things in the world before you got here.
3
Francis is trying very hard to drag the Church into the 20th Century. (The 21st is out of the question as the article notes). It will not be easy. This is an excellent step.
1
All signs point in this direction, though. I mean, yeah, he's no Jesus, but for a pope, he's making an effort. I wonder if he came in with the intention to break down the insanity of power or the idea came on as a result of his experience being a pope?
When you consider that Continental drift moves faster than the Catholic Church, the Pope is signaling enormous change.
Simply mentioning the idea that divorce and remarriage does not permanently separate a person from the most significant aspects of Catholicism is a radical statement.
I could only wish that the Pope, rather than simply asserting that we should not discriminate against sexual orientation, had instead welcomed people into the fold. Even if the central dispute - that homosexual relationships are sinful - is not reconciled, welcoming people and finding a compassionate way to promote reconciliation is a necessary step. The Pope should not have been cowed by the backward leadership of the Bishops, both here, and especially in developing nations.
The Year of Mercy should not be wasted. If we can find it within our faith to forgive murder, how cannot we not find it in ourselves to reconcile with those whose transgression is love?
Simply mentioning the idea that divorce and remarriage does not permanently separate a person from the most significant aspects of Catholicism is a radical statement.
I could only wish that the Pope, rather than simply asserting that we should not discriminate against sexual orientation, had instead welcomed people into the fold. Even if the central dispute - that homosexual relationships are sinful - is not reconciled, welcoming people and finding a compassionate way to promote reconciliation is a necessary step. The Pope should not have been cowed by the backward leadership of the Bishops, both here, and especially in developing nations.
The Year of Mercy should not be wasted. If we can find it within our faith to forgive murder, how cannot we not find it in ourselves to reconcile with those whose transgression is love?
5
Until the pope changes the church's stance on birth control and abortion, clerical marriage and the ordination of women, and stops providing a haven for the criminal cardinal law, he's just blowing smoke.
It's a shame that anyone pays attention to what this dysfunctional, toxic institution has to say about how to live life. The number of people just slavering to make nice to this guy is amazing. It's like desperate sheep seeking a kinder, gentler shepherd to guide them towards the slaughterhouse.
I think this is a gauge of just how many people are so insecure that they need some authority figure to worship - that, plus the fact that many are unwilling to stand in vocal opposition to the kind of tyrannical and repressive nonsense that the church stands for. Religion gets a pass in this country. And it shouldn't.
It's a shame that anyone pays attention to what this dysfunctional, toxic institution has to say about how to live life. The number of people just slavering to make nice to this guy is amazing. It's like desperate sheep seeking a kinder, gentler shepherd to guide them towards the slaughterhouse.
I think this is a gauge of just how many people are so insecure that they need some authority figure to worship - that, plus the fact that many are unwilling to stand in vocal opposition to the kind of tyrannical and repressive nonsense that the church stands for. Religion gets a pass in this country. And it shouldn't.
18
I have a church that you would enjoy and in which you would be vey welcomed. It is called the Episcopal Church. Why not give it a try.
2
I actually was an Episcopalian for a hot minute growing up. My mother, a perpetual social climber, thought the catholic church and our eye-talian last name (her pronunciation, not mine. She married a "wop" but always hated her non-WASP last name), were too down-market for her liking. I am an atheist, so there is no need for me to attend any church. I do respect the fact that the Episcopal church doesn't try to shove religion down people's throats, however.
1
the thing about Divorce in the Catholic Church...
There's already ways to deal with divorced people.
My Father was divorced and remarried.
the way they deal with that is by annulling the previous marriage. They basically conduct an investigation into why they divorced, and ask family on both sides to vouch for the reason. If they find that there was sufficient cause, (IE- infidelity) they annul the marriage in the eyes of the church and in their records.
from there, my priest basically invited us over to the rectory one evening, where, in shorts and a Hawaiian T-shirt, he took out his book, and basically had my mom and dad say their vows again, under that church. (since they had married in Florida)
so from that day on, they were considered Married under the local church, and the previous marriage was null and void, and they could both have communion
There's already ways to deal with divorced people.
My Father was divorced and remarried.
the way they deal with that is by annulling the previous marriage. They basically conduct an investigation into why they divorced, and ask family on both sides to vouch for the reason. If they find that there was sufficient cause, (IE- infidelity) they annul the marriage in the eyes of the church and in their records.
from there, my priest basically invited us over to the rectory one evening, where, in shorts and a Hawaiian T-shirt, he took out his book, and basically had my mom and dad say their vows again, under that church. (since they had married in Florida)
so from that day on, they were considered Married under the local church, and the previous marriage was null and void, and they could both have communion
2
And, you longllost sinners, please bring your pocketbooks to church (no confession necessary), as we could use some new cash after the payouts of the last few decades regarding Priest misbehavior and criminality. Just kidding, but this Pope is a great, great enterprise builder (as he should be). And, what better place for sinners than church.
1
Monotheistic religions are, by definition, judgmental and discriminatory. "There is one god, we know what he wants or demands, and if you want something you must obey us", is the fundamental message. Trying to get everybody to behave how that god wishes is the task.
In most modern countries people are free to accept or ignore those judgments. They can attend or not attend on Friday or Saturday or Sunday and con live in a religion free zone with, in Francis' language, no stones of judgment being thrown at them.
In this country, though legislatures are arming not just individuals, but entire corporations with stones of judgment to throw at others. Religious freedom acts threaten the ability of non-believers or entire corporations to avoid these stones. Imagine when a power company or a water company is run by religious fundamentalists. It could be free to assert its gods judgment in refusing to deal with those it deems morally deficient. Imagine the signs that could legally go up in malls all across America reading "No Jews allowed, no Mormans allowed or if you think you are saved by Jesus, keep out.
Our legilatures are arming our most intolerant citizens and organizations with stones to throw at anybody whom any bishop or pastor or rabbi says do not meet their standards. Any crackpot religion's standards of behavior can be used to deny access to any business or service.
In most modern countries people are free to accept or ignore those judgments. They can attend or not attend on Friday or Saturday or Sunday and con live in a religion free zone with, in Francis' language, no stones of judgment being thrown at them.
In this country, though legislatures are arming not just individuals, but entire corporations with stones of judgment to throw at others. Religious freedom acts threaten the ability of non-believers or entire corporations to avoid these stones. Imagine when a power company or a water company is run by religious fundamentalists. It could be free to assert its gods judgment in refusing to deal with those it deems morally deficient. Imagine the signs that could legally go up in malls all across America reading "No Jews allowed, no Mormans allowed or if you think you are saved by Jesus, keep out.
Our legilatures are arming our most intolerant citizens and organizations with stones to throw at anybody whom any bishop or pastor or rabbi says do not meet their standards. Any crackpot religion's standards of behavior can be used to deny access to any business or service.
6
Carl Sagan's words evoke much more substance for mankind's peace than the Pope's ever will.
3
Any change, no matter how minor, is going to raise the hackles of the traditionalists.
But just remember: the traditionalists of today are not much different from the traditionalists of years past.
I have no doubt that when the church moved away from burning people alive, for saying things they did not like, the traditionalists were all hot and bothered too. I have no doubt that when the church moved away from torturing people for confessions the traditionalists cried foul too.
Remember: they are the same now as they have always been. Give them power and it will just go back to how it always is when religious lunatics hold sway people burned alive.
But just remember: the traditionalists of today are not much different from the traditionalists of years past.
I have no doubt that when the church moved away from burning people alive, for saying things they did not like, the traditionalists were all hot and bothered too. I have no doubt that when the church moved away from torturing people for confessions the traditionalists cried foul too.
Remember: they are the same now as they have always been. Give them power and it will just go back to how it always is when religious lunatics hold sway people burned alive.
2
[[He admits that the church has made mistakes in alienating families and dedicates many passages to describing the pressures brought on families by poverty, migration, drug abuse and violence.]]
He's the cool pope, but I maintain that the first step to working your way out of poverty is to get control over your reproductive life. Abstinence, sure, but also contraception.
I read that "to interfere with God's will is a mortal sin and grounds for excommunication."
But who is to say that it's not god's will that you should have a sensible number of children and delay child birth until you are on firm financial footing?
Anyway, good luck to you all who are embracing whatever fiction gets you through the day.
He's the cool pope, but I maintain that the first step to working your way out of poverty is to get control over your reproductive life. Abstinence, sure, but also contraception.
I read that "to interfere with God's will is a mortal sin and grounds for excommunication."
But who is to say that it's not god's will that you should have a sensible number of children and delay child birth until you are on firm financial footing?
Anyway, good luck to you all who are embracing whatever fiction gets you through the day.
7
Fantastic. Let's now work to apply similar values and thinking amongst our police, prosecutors, judges, juries, prisoners, politicians, and ourselves.
2
Amori Laetitia accomplishes what it set out to do - foment change in the Catholic Church without the tremors being too much to bear for the conservative element of the church. While it may be comforting for some to lament that Pope Francis did not endorse gay marriage, it is also delusional to think that he would have through this document.
What he has done, it seems, is to empower his priests to be progressive on the local level. By referencing administering God's word while being mindful of local culture, and underscoring the overall message that the Church is to be a loving and welcoming place, he has done the Church a great service. No longer will a priest have to worry about offering holy communion to a divorcee, an openly gay parishioner, or any other person formerly feeling shut out.
It seems this document is far more revolutionary than it initially appears. Not only has Pope Francis continued to show his boundless compassion, but also his political savvy. This is a great day for Catholicism.
What he has done, it seems, is to empower his priests to be progressive on the local level. By referencing administering God's word while being mindful of local culture, and underscoring the overall message that the Church is to be a loving and welcoming place, he has done the Church a great service. No longer will a priest have to worry about offering holy communion to a divorcee, an openly gay parishioner, or any other person formerly feeling shut out.
It seems this document is far more revolutionary than it initially appears. Not only has Pope Francis continued to show his boundless compassion, but also his political savvy. This is a great day for Catholicism.
14
So we all got shortchanged, but at least we got more than we could have. And we are still free to ignore the Church's more oppressive teachings same as before. We need to be grateful for what we got and the spirit in which it was offered.
1
It sounds like the equivalent of a center-right decision from the US Supreme Court. The Pope has urged "irregulars" to consult individual priests, and empowered those priests to initiate reconciliatory steps as they see fit. He has backed up the advice to consult a (hitherto unavailable) priest with instructions to the priests to be charitable and open and welcoming.
That is a major change.
If the US Supreme Court had taken a similar stance on marriage equality, the result would have been to deny States the power to ban same sex marriages, but to allow individual judges and clerks to issue or deny licenses based on the distinct circumstances of the couple. The result would have been a far slower social embrace of the constitutional right to marriage equality, but one better keyed to the local pace at which cultural norms undergo change (as any cultural norm does and should).
That is a major change.
If the US Supreme Court had taken a similar stance on marriage equality, the result would have been to deny States the power to ban same sex marriages, but to allow individual judges and clerks to issue or deny licenses based on the distinct circumstances of the couple. The result would have been a far slower social embrace of the constitutional right to marriage equality, but one better keyed to the local pace at which cultural norms undergo change (as any cultural norm does and should).
2
What a laugh. The Pope and his posse think they actually have something to say about God, and the authority to say it? I really, truly feel sorry for people who think they need to be in Catholic club but can't gain it's acceptance. You don't need them, and you don't need to let them hurt you.
You can find God in lots of places. In the Catholic church, not so much.
You can find God in lots of places. In the Catholic church, not so much.
12
Completely agree, has he ever the bible? I observe that all any pope ever says is what he thinks, never what God thinks, as is clearly written down for everyone to see in the scriptures.
Another year and again the non sexual, non married men of the Catholic faith have decided that I can't get married and that women can't control their body. It is time for the men of the Catholic church stop giving advice in areas that they are unfamiliar with on a personal basis.
14
Francis seems to be a very good man, but he is still enslaved to fashions of the ancients. He needs to free himself from indefensible traditions so he can show the world that the Church cares about people, not just cardinals.
You have to give the Pope credit for the tune if not the actuarial words.To expect him to throw the baby out with the bath water is just unrealistic.When dealing with dogma that goes back thousands of years, you can’t expect complete change in one proclamation.However , he broke the ice, which will lead to actual change , especially where it comes to Homosexuals, & cross gender individuals.He has indeed nudged the Church towards compassion & further away from Judgement & punishment, in so doing millions of people will be affected.
3
To characterize someone's situation as "irregular" IS throwing a stone at their situation. Can't say same sex marriages are not equivalent to heterosexual marriages through one side of the mouth and say you are welcome to the Catholic Church through the other side. My marriage to another man IS as good a marriage, or better, than anybody else's. I want NOTHING to do with any religion that says otherwise.
21
How will the church educate or re-educate the priests who are supposed to provide the individual counseling? How will it free up all those extra clerical hours for pastoral interviews and guidance?
2
This news item is totally unworthy of front page news of a major American organ of the press. Why should any educated adult possessing critical thinking skills pay any attention to what this ignorant old man has to say about how others should conduct their family affairs or how adults should lead their sex lives? The Catholic Church has lost all serious credibility as a source of moral guidance in the wake of countless clerical child sex revelations in recent years. In other words, who cares what the pope says about anything? His opinion is not any more worthy than another.
15
This article is not included in the print copy of the New York Times and I have done a thorough search. There is an article on page A8 which is included in the print copy entitled "Awaiting Pope's word, Catholics express hopes." Readers' responses are included with this article.
This article is a web-only piece. As a practicing Catholic, I am very interested in what Pope Francis has to say about my Church as do many others. I do find this article extremely relevant as Pope Francis is the leader of the 1.2 billion Catholics around the world. When he speaks, countless numbers of people listen.
This article is a web-only piece. As a practicing Catholic, I am very interested in what Pope Francis has to say about my Church as do many others. I do find this article extremely relevant as Pope Francis is the leader of the 1.2 billion Catholics around the world. When he speaks, countless numbers of people listen.
2
It appears that the information on this papal document was released after the print version of the paper had been published, so perhaps it will appear tomorrow. And given that there are quite a few Catholics in this country, it seems quite appropriate that the document receive prominent coverage. And by the way, the Pope is speaking to his flock, so if you're not a practicing Catholic, it is not directed at you.
2
Deplorable to think that a foreign 'leader' exerts so much nefarious influence on sovereign US citizens. And I like your use of the collective noun 'flock', most suitable for animal collectives rather than sentient, sensible human beings. What's next? a fatwa pronounced by some obscurantist imam in Cairo or Dhaka targeting an 'apostate' or other harmless free-thinker?
"Francis effectively pushes decision making downward to bishops and priests..."
In other words, decisions would be made by guys who have no experience with personal relationships, other than hearsay and perhaps a roll in the hay with an adolescent male. Brilliant policy.
In other words, decisions would be made by guys who have no experience with personal relationships, other than hearsay and perhaps a roll in the hay with an adolescent male. Brilliant policy.
14
Much ado about nothing. Same old same old in a newer package with a crisper bow.
21
So my neighbour continues to beat his wife, only now he will do so more gently. I suppose we should be grateful for any improvement, but I am not Catholic and so this has little to do with me.
1
The Pope had a clear opening to allow divorced couples marry within the church. He took the easy way out. Acceptance doesn't equate to true rights. He's aware of this but steadfastly refuses to bring the Vatican into the 21st century.
7
It's unsurprising that an organization run by virgin old men would be obsessed with sex. I think Francis is trying to move the Church away from this obsession.
9
What makes you think all Roman Catholic priests/bishops/cardinals are virgins? In the early 1960's, the priest at the grade school I attended not only had a live-in "housekeeper", but was also a heavy drinker. Another priest in a smaller parish lived in the rectory, but lived part time with a woman at her condo (kept it from his parishioners, it broke after his death as he tricked her into adding his name to the deed). There are countless similar stories one learns over many years of attending church.
4
"No one can be condemned forever, because that is not the logic of the Gospel!"
And yet that it the logic of the religion overall. If you happen to commit one sin too many in your short life, you get to spend an eternity in damnation.
Infinite punishment for finite sins: does this sound like the method of a just and loving god?
And yet that it the logic of the religion overall. If you happen to commit one sin too many in your short life, you get to spend an eternity in damnation.
Infinite punishment for finite sins: does this sound like the method of a just and loving god?
9
There is no proof at all of any person spending any time in damnation. Their invention of the concept of "damnation" and your fear of being sent there.
This Pope is to the Establishment Catholics what trump is to the Establishment GOP...
4
How about this for a headline "Pope Francis, Urging Less Judgment, Judges Harshly"
Did we forget the utter nastiness of his words on marriage?
Did we forget the utter nastiness of his words on marriage?
9
The Catholic Church moves towards 17th century values and people get excited? These guys ban the use of condoms! You know how many people that policy has killed? I'll bet it's in the millions, not to mention overpopulation and global poverty all traceable right back to their doorstep.
Religion is Stone Age magical hocus pocus developed by the guys in charge to stay in charge. When the all knowing, all seeing God who loves us so much does one post on Facebook sign me up. Until then I have to call it as it is- nonsense.
Religion is Stone Age magical hocus pocus developed by the guys in charge to stay in charge. When the all knowing, all seeing God who loves us so much does one post on Facebook sign me up. Until then I have to call it as it is- nonsense.
29
Actually, we should do much more.
Last spring, shortly before her death, I took my 94 year old mother to a Catholic mass in a sweet little church near my home. The priest's sermon was a thirty-minute rant about the "gay agenda," and after ten minutes of it, I thought my mom would faint. Two of my (wonderful) brothers are gay. I was desperate to leave - or to scream at him - but I would never abandon my mom in the same way the Catholic Church has abandoned half my family.
As for this encyclical - far too little, far too late.
Last spring, shortly before her death, I took my 94 year old mother to a Catholic mass in a sweet little church near my home. The priest's sermon was a thirty-minute rant about the "gay agenda," and after ten minutes of it, I thought my mom would faint. Two of my (wonderful) brothers are gay. I was desperate to leave - or to scream at him - but I would never abandon my mom in the same way the Catholic Church has abandoned half my family.
As for this encyclical - far too little, far too late.
203
I completely agree with you except for the "too little too late" part. This is a shot across the bows for priests such as these. It's also a real encouragement for people who are excluded to become visible. Not perfect of course. I do have to wonder sometimes if these priests have actually read the New Testament.
2
Careful, this not an encyclical, it is an apostolic exhortation proclamation. Their is a world of difference. Think of the proclamation is just one man's thinking on considerations of family life.
1
@coolhunter said: "Think of the proclamation is just one man's thinking on considerations of family life."
- - - -
And you think encyclicals are something other than "just one man's thinking"? Seriously? It's men who decided they're able to speak on behalf of God with encyclicals in the first place, trying to convince (scare) the laity into being afraid to question.
- - - -
And you think encyclicals are something other than "just one man's thinking"? Seriously? It's men who decided they're able to speak on behalf of God with encyclicals in the first place, trying to convince (scare) the laity into being afraid to question.
1
translation, the church is losing members and their wallets.
201
Most accurate comment. Lot's of lawsuits to pay off, funds low.
1
Two great stats that came out in Catholic publications BEFORE "Spotlight" came out:
- 80% of Catholics leave the church by the time they are 23
- for every Catholic that joins, 6 leave
- 80% of Catholics leave the church by the time they are 23
- for every Catholic that joins, 6 leave
4
Nice. But he's no Donald Trump. That's a good thing. He's our Obama pope. Middle of the road man.
2
There is no middle of the road between good and evil.
1
Somebody's concerned about people leaving the church in droves. But until he stops sheltering child molesters, it's just windows dressing.
18
You need to pay attention, this Pope's approach is not like previous ones.
2
at least the nyt could get the headline in line with the pope's call for bishops and priests to exercise more not less judgement in serving the members of their congregations.
At last divorced Catholics no longer have to be closeted in order to receive Communion. A rare example of tangible progress for getting with the times. However, I'm not sure if the manifesto will be of much use to American Catholics. Generally they don't hesitate to ignore orders from the Church on how to live their lives.
5
That someone about to turn 80 himself would put this out into the world is to be applauded and it provides solid building blocks for future pontiffs to put the Church back on the track set forth by Vatican II (in particular don't miss footnote 351). While I share the dismay of many that the Exhortation was not more open to women, gay people and inconsistently dismissive of contraception, it cannot be lost on anyone that this document is a sea change from the Medieval nonsense spouted by the prior two popes.
14
Yes, by all means, the church is now flirting with 16th century values, now they are only 500 years behind the times. Let's have a party. They already have the hats.
2
The Church has been in the business of inventing and forgiving sins for 2000 years. It's the basic function of this organization. For a Pope to "urge" less "judgment" while insisting on the core fantasies of a church that thinks it can control and penalize sex, marriage, and divorce is meaningless. It looks like an attempt to burnish the brand while keeping the same toxicity in the product. No Pope is going to leave his Church with fewer sins. That's its stock in trade.
73
It sounds as if he went as far as he politically could Without creating a schism, which dramatically reversing centuries of teaching on the nature of marriage would have done. If the church actually took a more compassionate view of the single, divorced, and LGBT then over time the groundwork might be laid for broader changes. But maybe not. This is a religion with a ton of rules and doctrines that has been guiding and controlling all aspects of life for almost 2000 years.
4
Still, can't stomach the idea women are equals and should have a small amount of control over their body, even for their own health? Uh? Color me unimpressed. Same old, same old.
222
Best Pope Ever
35
Nope. That would be John XXIII.
3
That's a pretty low bar.
4
@Ortrud - Why quibble over a matter of opinion? Both popes are/were more focused on the well-being of their fellow humans than the trappings and disconnection of the institutional hierarchy.
3
So we still have this concept of Unjust Discrimination versus what Just Discrimination? I guess when a bishop fires someone because they got married to a same sex partner that must be Just Discrimination but isn't that in some way an act of aggression? How can the unconditional love of God even imagine any discrimination?
13
Maybe the Pope and the RCC should finally wake up and realize that most divorced Catholics already take communion if they so desire or have joined other churches?
64
At least it's taking (slightly) less time than it did for them to forgive Galileo.
150
I am pleased with this document, if only for its tone of mercy. Progressive priests are validated in their approach to divorced Catholics. Conservative U.S. bishops will say, "Nothing has changed."
Francis' approach to gay Catholics will disappoint some; but it is far more welcoming than any pronouncements from the hierarchy in the past. To affirm gay marriage would be to open the sacrament of marriage to same-sex partners. That isn't going to happen. Instead, we are exhorted to welcome ALL people at our local parishes.
All in all, a triumph for a church getting back to the spirit of the original gospel of Jesus himself.
Francis' approach to gay Catholics will disappoint some; but it is far more welcoming than any pronouncements from the hierarchy in the past. To affirm gay marriage would be to open the sacrament of marriage to same-sex partners. That isn't going to happen. Instead, we are exhorted to welcome ALL people at our local parishes.
All in all, a triumph for a church getting back to the spirit of the original gospel of Jesus himself.
17
Still a problem for those living within the realm of conservative bishops.
3
As a non-Catholic I say, Bravo, Pope Francis toward moving the church one step closer to true tolerance. I wish we could substitute "U.S. politician" for "pastor" in the Pope's following remark, “'A pastor cannot feel that it is enough to simply apply moral laws to those living in ‘irregular’ situations, as if they were stones to throw at people’s lives.'" It sweeps away the bigoted pollution of all those here seeking to hide behind so-called "Religious Freedom Restoration Acts" and exposes them and the laws they're passing for what they are--hateful "'stones to throw at people's lives.'"
64
And yet Pope Francis is describing my same sex marriage:
"a healthy sense of closeness and stability through shared daily rituals. These could include a morning kiss, an evening blessing, waiting at the door to welcome each other home, taking trips together and sharing household chores. Yet it also helps to break the routine with a party, and to enjoy family celebrations of anniversaries and special events. We need these moments of cherishing God’s gifts and renewing our zest for life.”
"a healthy sense of closeness and stability through shared daily rituals. These could include a morning kiss, an evening blessing, waiting at the door to welcome each other home, taking trips together and sharing household chores. Yet it also helps to break the routine with a party, and to enjoy family celebrations of anniversaries and special events. We need these moments of cherishing God’s gifts and renewing our zest for life.”
123
Pope Francis has now acknowledged the century in which we live, if not aligned teachings with it.
6
Pope Francis is also responding to the pressures of modern life. His flock is not tithing, only making an appearance on Christmas and Easter. Guilt has stopped working to open wallets so it is time to try some compassion!
21
@Rahul Wilmington, Del.
If you would know anything about Pope Francis, you would know that that is not true. Some statements he made could even push some older traditional people away from the church. I find his views refreshing and compassionate. He is a factor of stability in the world and an example of ethics.
If you would know anything about Pope Francis, you would know that that is not true. Some statements he made could even push some older traditional people away from the church. I find his views refreshing and compassionate. He is a factor of stability in the world and an example of ethics.
2
Catholics don't tithe, for starters.
2
Absolutely NOT true that Catholics are "only making an appearance on Christmas and Easter"!
I attend churches in various parts of New York City, since my work takes me to different areas. And I can tell you, Masses are often full to standing room only on weekdays! Especially in the main business districts. For Sunday Masses in my own residential neighborhood, I make it a point to get there early to make sure I get a seat!!
It's obvious you know little about Catholicism, but that never seems to stop NY Times commenters.
I attend churches in various parts of New York City, since my work takes me to different areas. And I can tell you, Masses are often full to standing room only on weekdays! Especially in the main business districts. For Sunday Masses in my own residential neighborhood, I make it a point to get there early to make sure I get a seat!!
It's obvious you know little about Catholicism, but that never seems to stop NY Times commenters.
2
Two thousand years ago, Jesus said, "Judge not lest ye be judged." The Pope finally catches on, and that's headline news?
16
Dear S.W. Hubbard,
Of course it's headline news, it's taken about two millennia to bring about this beginning of change. It's like the moon landing was big news, since we hadn't managed it for millions of years.
Of course it's headline news, it's taken about two millennia to bring about this beginning of change. It's like the moon landing was big news, since we hadn't managed it for millions of years.
1
Seems to me that Francis's emphasis on a priest's personal response is analogous to the political shift wrought by "new federalists" in the 1970s and still with us today. There are obviously more- and less-conservative parishes across the globe, and Francis is leaving the door wide open for each parish leader to use his own discretion in welcoming and ministering to those in his parish according to the wishes of the parish's members. Change in a global institution as old as the Catholic Church must occur gradually and incrementally, and Francis must be careful to be a pope for all, not just those in the Americas. It's quite possible, for example, that the only reason Francis did not welcome women to the priesthood is because he did not wish to appear to take sides in the American race for president now taking place. If Hillary Clinton wins the presidency in November, Francis might be freer to act on the basis of a demonstrable change in behavior. Like the Supreme Court, the Church has no police power to enforce its encyclicals, so it must REACT rather than act. I continue to find Francis the most responsive and the most profoundly compassionate pope of the past half century, one who, even more significantly, calls forth comparable rationality and compassion from his lieutenants around the world. He deserves our praise and our support for his thoughtfulness and his courage.
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I totally concur with your perspective Dick and can see how the Pope's broad brush stroke guidance on "local decision making by bishops and priests" for carrying out new ways of welcoming divorced and remarried Catholics into fuller church life may look very different in communities across the US. I pray that they will all be open to the guidance of the Holy Spirit as changes occur gradually.
1
Whether one is a faithiest or an athiest, it has now become abundantly clear - with the advent of Pope Francis - the Catholic Church, one of the most tradition bound institutions, has assumed the mantle of early stage transformation, recognizing and reflecting the changes in what are now considered a more complete spectrum of modern day social norms in our global population.
Let us hope that the thoughtfullness of this religoius leader inspires leaders in other fields to consider better meeting the needs of the wider audience which they explicitly serve.
Let us hope that the thoughtfullness of this religoius leader inspires leaders in other fields to consider better meeting the needs of the wider audience which they explicitly serve.
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We have a leader that is telling us to love, be compassionate and see God in each other, and live by those principles. People on the extremes are unhappy because they want him to be rigid and provide inflexible rules. Maybe something like “adulterers should be stoned”, “don’t pay taxes to the romans”. This all sounds very familiar.
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Good luck seeing God anywhere, it's all made up. Religion is the biggest source of suffering on earth today. Anything with no checks and balances, demanding absolute adherence to divine authority that can't be seen or questioned is nuts. We know too much for this nonsense to be at all respected.
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@Garrett Clay - You take the meaning of "God" too narrowly. It's not limited to organized religion, and doesn't include the judgmental approach of many religions. There's a reason Jesus never started an institutional church -- and no, the wording in the new testament regarding Peter's being the rock upon which the church would be built is likely NOT the way Jesus said it. His teachings while alive point to a way of living, not a structured religion.
1
Atheist here.
Why are we listening to a virgin tell the rest of us which sexual unions should be legal?
Why are we listening to a virgin tell the rest of us which sexual unions should be legal?
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I wouldn't be so certain that the Pope is a virgin. Probably hit puberty well before taking his vow of abstinence.
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Apples and oranges
@Louis Anthes
"Why are we listening to a virgin tell the rest of us which sexual unions should be legal?"
Interesting question. I wonder what percentage of priests are actually virgins.
"Why are we listening to a virgin tell the rest of us which sexual unions should be legal?"
Interesting question. I wonder what percentage of priests are actually virgins.
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God forbid the church should "talk about ideals and values," not just command "laws and requirements." What would Jesus say?
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He might say: "An end to board game religion..."
So the Church has finally noticed that the world has changed a bit in the last 2000 years. Maybe it is because women are no longer just reproductive robots who do cleaning and cooking as their side jobs and peoples sexual orientation is no longer a secret.
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Maybe it's because this Pope understands the basic teachings that Jesus originally taught are most important, rather than the rules and decisions of men too focused on control and rigid thinking.
2
Thank God that in a perilous and uncertain world Pope Francis stood up for long standing traditional values but offered hope and reconciliation to those who may have strayed from the path.
Political correctness and trendiness has almost become a religion unto itself. I am glad that the Pope reaffirmed traditional values and did not bow to the undue pressures of secular humanism and political correctness which are nothing but thinly disguised hedonism where anything goes as long as it's all about me and it feels good.
Political correctness and trendiness has almost become a religion unto itself. I am glad that the Pope reaffirmed traditional values and did not bow to the undue pressures of secular humanism and political correctness which are nothing but thinly disguised hedonism where anything goes as long as it's all about me and it feels good.
2
So simple. So profound. Amen!
10
I hope this will allow my wife to be back in good graces with her church. They tried to stop her from marrying me, even to the point of the priest pointing out "nice men" after mass. I went through all of that annullment mess and I think she finally "saw the light" when it was granted, pending receipt of a couple-of-thousand dollar payment of a "secretarial fee."
Despite all of that she continued to attend, oblivious to the fact that after a move to a new parish, the first thing that arrived in the mail was not a welcome letter, but envelopes for donations.
I told her all along that if her God was unhappy with me and the circumstances of my divorce and our subsequent marriage, then she was wasting her time.
Thank you, Pope Francis. I may not agree with your religion, but I do think you are a very cool man. Wise, for sure.
Despite all of that she continued to attend, oblivious to the fact that after a move to a new parish, the first thing that arrived in the mail was not a welcome letter, but envelopes for donations.
I told her all along that if her God was unhappy with me and the circumstances of my divorce and our subsequent marriage, then she was wasting her time.
Thank you, Pope Francis. I may not agree with your religion, but I do think you are a very cool man. Wise, for sure.
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Is nothing cool about this man. I would suggest much deeper reading on the reasons why the Vatican selected Francis.
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Wise no doubt, for the 14th century. Sorry to break the news to you we are now in the 21st. Religion is a scam, and the bigger the hat the bigger the scam.
3
The church is an organization that has only one purpose to support and perpetuate itself at the expense of people. It is an anachronism that interferes with logic and common sense.
I am amazed that it is still in control of so many souls. It's a very pathetic surrender of one's independent thought and responsibility. I have very little respect for it. No one should have the authority to dictate how one should should live.
Anyone who controls the reproductive rights of other people is plain and simple, an absolute tyrant. I know that I have far more compassion and ethics than all these bishops together. We don't need anyone to tell us what is right or wrong. We intrinsically know.
I am amazed that it is still in control of so many souls. It's a very pathetic surrender of one's independent thought and responsibility. I have very little respect for it. No one should have the authority to dictate how one should should live.
Anyone who controls the reproductive rights of other people is plain and simple, an absolute tyrant. I know that I have far more compassion and ethics than all these bishops together. We don't need anyone to tell us what is right or wrong. We intrinsically know.
3
During my 88 years many popes have come and gone from the scene. It´s a shame it took so so long for common sense to take over the Vatican. But, the Jesuits, generally speaking, have been known for their common sense.
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And intelligence.
As I read the Pope's document and the article here, I'm struck by the emphasis on personal conscience. Any priest, bishop or pope worth his salt would say much the same thing. There is no substitute for one's own conscience. Although a person's conscience can be rationalized or compromised, that can't happen without the consent of the individual. An honest conscience, on the other hand, allows one to answer God with directness, candor and honesty. It seems to me that a merciful God would be unlikely to condemn such a person.
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Patrick: You're right: the supremacy of conscience is good Catholic teaching.
1
"Conservative Catholics, who have already expressed concern that Francis could destabilize the church and undermine doctrine, were far less impressed."
That is what much of Roman Catholic belief is, doctrine. Man's laws, not God's. Rules that have no scriptural basis. There is no such thing as a mortal sin. All sins are forgivable and therefore forgiven through repentence. Period.
That is what much of Roman Catholic belief is, doctrine. Man's laws, not God's. Rules that have no scriptural basis. There is no such thing as a mortal sin. All sins are forgivable and therefore forgiven through repentence. Period.
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Why make it just about Catholics?
The entire concept of sin implies something metaphysical and impossible: perfection. There is no human perfection. There are behaviors and meanings and beliefs and habits. But there is no heaven and there is no soul.
The entire concept of sin implies something metaphysical and impossible: perfection. There is no human perfection. There are behaviors and meanings and beliefs and habits. But there is no heaven and there is no soul.
2
Why is this comment a Times pick? It shows absolutely no understanding of Catholic doctrine or beliefs. "Mortal" sins, are, in fact, "forgiveable" under Catholic law. Just sayin.'
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Mortal sin is very real. Much worse than mortal sin, however, is the absence of repentance. Worst of all is the denial of any need for repentance.
1
"“ ‘Amoris Laetitia’ is a quietly revolutionary document,” said the Rev. James Martin, a Jesuit who is editor at large for America magazine. “It restores the role of personal conscience and reminds pastors to meet people where they are. It will be a great encouragement especially to divorced and remarried Catholics and anyone who feels they have been unwelcome in the church."
I think Francis was brilliant to push the issue of broken families down to the local level and personal consultations with one's parish priest. In my own conversations with priests, I've seen a lot of "bend" and welcome from official rigid Catholic "rules" which is borne out in surveys about how US Catholics ignore edicts on contraceptives, cohabitation, and other stringent sexual mores.
But like many, I wish he'd gone further on the issue of same sex marriage. If the title of this document is "the Joy of Love," to exclude those who, by genetics, have been made by God to be attracted to the same sex is the opposite of caritas.
Because the position of the Catholic church on marriage is aimed at creating "family," it shouldn't forget the high percentage of gay couples who adopt unwanted children. Case in point: tomorrow my boyfriend and I will attend a reception for his brother and partner who formalized their long-term relationship RI in late December. Each raised adopted kids, one with disability, who now can call themselves family.
If that isn't the "Joy of Love," I don't know what is.
I think Francis was brilliant to push the issue of broken families down to the local level and personal consultations with one's parish priest. In my own conversations with priests, I've seen a lot of "bend" and welcome from official rigid Catholic "rules" which is borne out in surveys about how US Catholics ignore edicts on contraceptives, cohabitation, and other stringent sexual mores.
But like many, I wish he'd gone further on the issue of same sex marriage. If the title of this document is "the Joy of Love," to exclude those who, by genetics, have been made by God to be attracted to the same sex is the opposite of caritas.
Because the position of the Catholic church on marriage is aimed at creating "family," it shouldn't forget the high percentage of gay couples who adopt unwanted children. Case in point: tomorrow my boyfriend and I will attend a reception for his brother and partner who formalized their long-term relationship RI in late December. Each raised adopted kids, one with disability, who now can call themselves family.
If that isn't the "Joy of Love," I don't know what is.
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The Pope seeks to help us, to heal the wounds of sin, and bring the Lost sheep back to The Fold, as Jesus Himself will do. However the pope must not pretend the law of God will condone what we know to be sin, and so Francis states that marriage is not a condition appropriate to homosexuals who wish to live the sin of same sex acts. Having stated that, Our good Pope knows that God is merciful, and no sinner is beyond the mercy of God who constantly seeks them, and wishes to heal them. What is impossible for mankind, is not impossible for God, and none of us hate who trust in the Love and mercy of Christ. Only sin is hateful, never the sinner who Pope Francis invites back to full participation in the church by the grace of God. May the peace of the risen Lord be with you all.
3
What a beautiful comment. Thank you!
4
because to the church, it isnt just about family, but conception. a man and a woman, (like adam and eve) whos union produces offspring.
a man and a man, or a woman and woman, cannot produce that, and is therefore unnatural to the church. Marriage to the church isn't the same as civil union or marriage under the state
a man and a man, or a woman and woman, cannot produce that, and is therefore unnatural to the church. Marriage to the church isn't the same as civil union or marriage under the state
2
Christ embraced all -- saints and sinners. We shouldn't do less.
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As a divorced Catholic I do not want forgiveness or mercy from a church that would accept me if only I would engage in a sham annulment. Pope Francis should be asking me for forgiveness, not because I am more saintly, but because I am the one harmed by its stuck in the mud tradition.
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You left out the rest of what Christ said to sinners He loved and forgave, " Go then, and Sin No More ". Jesus came to save sinners, not approve their sins.
7
According to Rome, only the dead are saints. All the living are sinners...isn't that what original sin and the crucifixion are supposedly about?
3