Paying 5 million for 30 million in debt can only be a good deal when you never plan on actually paying that debt. Big surprise Trump is isn't.
4
This is consistent with what is known as about Trump's way of doing business, which raises another question, why does anyone do business with him at all. If he can't be trusted in acting fairly in his business dealings, why would anyone entrust the Presidency to him and why should he be trusted to act fairly there.
7
What Mr. Nocera fails to contemplate is that the actions he describes are exactly what make Trump a master negotiator and businessman and exactly why many people want him to lead our government. Most of our leaders have always been great at making sure they came out ahead but not so much for the rest of us. That is exactly Mr. trumps message "put me in charge and I will stop letting the government and other nations from pulling the wool over you eyes." It is amazing how establishment folks like Mr. Nocera just don't get it.
Too bad the members at that club didn't sell to Tiger Woods when they had the chance. His presence alone at Medalist saved that club. The Ritz could have been one of the top clubs around but now that Trump owns it, smart people won't get involved with it.
3
A perfect example of what kind of President Trump will make. Break even promise. Make it all personal. Lie, cheat, steal and act with guile and venom. Otehrwise, all okay.
3
Trump has been saying for weeks that he was getting his taxes ready and they would be released soon. After the debate Thursday he said that he is being audited by the IRS continually because "he's a strong Christian" and that he would not release his taxes until the audit procedure is completed. If we make him President we get what we deserve.
3
O gee whiz, all these rich folks fighting with the donald. A million here a million there, so sad.
I do not like Trump. I do know something about the golf business. My guess is the course had financial problems and the members made a bad investment. Golf has been under duress, overbuilt. So, the course was in trouble, the members made a bad investment, and Trump stepped in and bought the thing. Simple as that, no story, lousy journalism.
We are reading and hearing a LOT about Donald Trump these days. He loves to tell us how smart and rich he is in contrast to the losers who say anything bad about him. For such a "successful" businessman I am bothered by a few things.
I have heard that even if you take him at his own word of his net worth,it is still LESS than simple inflation ! He has filed for bankruptcy how many times? He says he borrowed a "mere" one million dollars to start his empire! He had a very wealthy father to start with obviously. There are questions about his Trump University which of course was not a real college to begin with. This story adds another piece to this guy.s history.
I have heard that even if you take him at his own word of his net worth,it is still LESS than simple inflation ! He has filed for bankruptcy how many times? He says he borrowed a "mere" one million dollars to start his empire! He had a very wealthy father to start with obviously. There are questions about his Trump University which of course was not a real college to begin with. This story adds another piece to this guy.s history.
1
"Trump Reneged on Deal"?
No surprise here. That's how he generally operates!
Just look up some news stories about Trump and Atlantic City! He got all sorts of tax breaks and concessions from the State of NJ and then bailed out and filed for bankruptcy (again), leaving lots of people whom he made promises to out of work and all the bond-holders left holding the bag.
And now Christie is endorsing Trump? Hmmm....
No surprise here. That's how he generally operates!
Just look up some news stories about Trump and Atlantic City! He got all sorts of tax breaks and concessions from the State of NJ and then bailed out and filed for bankruptcy (again), leaving lots of people whom he made promises to out of work and all the bond-holders left holding the bag.
And now Christie is endorsing Trump? Hmmm....
2
You can see in many of the reactions to this story that there are some people who will never let facts get in the way of their opinions. You can show over and over how Donald Trump is a fraud, a liar, a business cheat, a homophobe, a xenophobe, a fearmonger, and a con man, but none of that dissuades certain people in their mistaken beliefs.
3
The author admits that his information is incomplete. I will assist. I have been an owner with Ritz Carlton since 2010. Ritz, after their management integration with Marriott and the crash of 2008, found themselves with a portfolio of hugely devalued and money-losing high end vacation residences. Starting in 2011, Marriott de-flagged/cancelled management contracts with some (as in Kapalua, HI and Abaco, Bahamas), and decided to sell off the Jupiter club. The residences at Jupiter were a mix of owned, fractional, and timeshare. This odd lot of places on a poorly managed golf club was going to go under completely unless it was sold. That Trump bought it and reinvested in the place was a bold and risky undertaking. Clearly, he is betting that the industry will recover, as he owns a number of destination golf courses. Just as clearly, setting aside the legal construction, the fact that he offered any money at all to the people on the resignation list is remarkable and generous. The Jupiter owners conflict is with Marriott, who undermined their club access but on the other had assured its continuation. Tough call but not Trump's fault. In my case, Ritz Carlton kept my property in Aspen CO, which at its high was selling 3 week fractional ownership for as much as $300,000. They are worth about $30K on the open market today. The maintenance fee is around $14,000 per year. There is no resignation list, and Marriott will take action against owners in arrears. "Fore"
1
Trump is a crook, not unlike Richard Nixon!
1
Trump's favorite game, changing the meaning. He has legal contracts and decides to call them "rules." The guy is a Battery Park huckster who was born rich. He plays Three Card Monte on a higher level with everyone from undocumented immigrants to wealthy golfers.
2
I wish there was a PAC I could contribute to that would help fund lawsuits against Trump for people who don't have the resources to fight him in court.
3
Wow! Talk about risking the core Establishment Republican vote. This article should be posted in every country clubhouse in America. Trump IS the Benedict Arnold of the golfing world.
2
Mr. Golf supposedly has a handicap of 4 - I wonder how many mulligans and foot wedges that includes. We need Bill Murray to run over him in his golf cart.
1
Note what is acknowledged and missing in this article
First, the golfers invested with a subsidary of Marriott, not Trump. What were all of the terms of the agreement?
Second, redemptions were apparently dependant on new members sign ups 2 for 1. That meant a delay in redemptions.
Third, Did Trump buy assets or buy the original company. If the former, the golfer's claim is against the subsidiary of Marriott, now likely bankrupt, not Trump.
Fourth, the golf course was a looser that the golfer's invested in.
Fifth, this author either ignores the terms of Trump's acquisition or, worse yet, has no idea what they were is just assuming both what the members rights were and the terms of the acquisition.
That most have settled says a lot. I suspect that their lawyers told them they did not have a case. I suspect that the holdouts want money. I also suspect that this author's motivation has nothing to do with supporting the golf members.
Often, what is missing in a story is as, or more important, than what is reported. There is usually a reason information is excluded.
Of course, my comments are speculation based on what the author writes.
First, the golfers invested with a subsidary of Marriott, not Trump. What were all of the terms of the agreement?
Second, redemptions were apparently dependant on new members sign ups 2 for 1. That meant a delay in redemptions.
Third, Did Trump buy assets or buy the original company. If the former, the golfer's claim is against the subsidiary of Marriott, now likely bankrupt, not Trump.
Fourth, the golf course was a looser that the golfer's invested in.
Fifth, this author either ignores the terms of Trump's acquisition or, worse yet, has no idea what they were is just assuming both what the members rights were and the terms of the acquisition.
That most have settled says a lot. I suspect that their lawyers told them they did not have a case. I suspect that the holdouts want money. I also suspect that this author's motivation has nothing to do with supporting the golf members.
Often, what is missing in a story is as, or more important, than what is reported. There is usually a reason information is excluded.
Of course, my comments are speculation based on what the author writes.
13
The article is clear Trump bought the original company. This included the "debt" of thes deposits. This is an interest free finance ,build the club, very common in the past. As the article mentions the club/owner of the club,corp has to repay after 30 years. In no way is the article unclear. If Mr Trump has has any claims it is either
1. Against the party who sold him the club for not revealing the outstanding requests to sell/refund the loan,deposit.
2. A claim that the parties asking for refunds had a contractual obligation to maintain active paid up membership and had not.
Point 2 is Addressed but not definatively. Prior to Trump arriving it is clear members who resigned sat on a limbo list,no active membership, Trumps group then created a new rule for those resigned awaiting refund.
The basic facts are clear, and also clear to me , having been in the business, he bought out the managing co. Planning to do this, the cash flow is negative, golf course cash flows nationally in golf are degrading. The value is in eliminating the "debt" ie the memberships. Typical "shark " behavior, thats how he does business. No more no less, agree or disazgree as you like. At least he is messing with the rich.
1. Against the party who sold him the club for not revealing the outstanding requests to sell/refund the loan,deposit.
2. A claim that the parties asking for refunds had a contractual obligation to maintain active paid up membership and had not.
Point 2 is Addressed but not definatively. Prior to Trump arriving it is clear members who resigned sat on a limbo list,no active membership, Trumps group then created a new rule for those resigned awaiting refund.
The basic facts are clear, and also clear to me , having been in the business, he bought out the managing co. Planning to do this, the cash flow is negative, golf course cash flows nationally in golf are degrading. The value is in eliminating the "debt" ie the memberships. Typical "shark " behavior, thats how he does business. No more no less, agree or disazgree as you like. At least he is messing with the rich.
1
Nocera answers many of your 'questions, for instance, your speculation about why people setteled with Trump
"he basically dares the people he has stiffed to sue him, knowing that his deep pockets and bevy of lawyers give him a big advantage over those who feel wronged by him."
This is pretty common: individuals usually settle with a big business like Trump because they, especially litigious ones like Trump, have way more legal resources: i.e. lawyers on staff or retainer.
"he basically dares the people he has stiffed to sue him, knowing that his deep pockets and bevy of lawyers give him a big advantage over those who feel wronged by him."
This is pretty common: individuals usually settle with a big business like Trump because they, especially litigious ones like Trump, have way more legal resources: i.e. lawyers on staff or retainer.
2
You realize Trump didn't negotiate his terms of the redemption before the purchase.
1
All hands on deck to try and stop Trump
I am not voting for him but the raw panic of media outlets trying to put out the prairie fire is astonishing
I am not voting for him but the raw panic of media outlets trying to put out the prairie fire is astonishing
9
Your columns give me hope that Trump can be stopped. The RNC must disavow him. His credentials are false and dishonest?
3
How about we disavow the RNC and all their lobbyist revenue becuase thier credentials are false and dishonest? Did they wirte this article and give it to Nocera to submit like they do with legislative initiatives for the same lobbyists ?
1
Only the beginning.
3
Does this really belong in the Sports section?
When the author ends a column with:
"Which leads to a pretty obvious question: How much is Trump National Jupiter losing today?"
It is obviously a political editorial. I have less concern for Trump's business dealings than with the NYT's editorial compass.
When the author ends a column with:
"Which leads to a pretty obvious question: How much is Trump National Jupiter losing today?"
It is obviously a political editorial. I have less concern for Trump's business dealings than with the NYT's editorial compass.
8
Really? Really? This man wants to be president, and you have have concerns about the NYT but no concerns about Trump's business dealings? How do you think Ronald McDonald will deal with our budgetary issues?
3
Please Mr. Nocera , take your opinions to the editorial page where they belong
There , surrounded by others who have made a cottage industry out of bashing
Trump , you will be in good company.
There , surrounded by others who have made a cottage industry out of bashing
Trump , you will be in good company.
7
Trump himself has made a cottage industry out of bashing Trump.
It was reporting, not opinion. His job and the job of the press. Folks have a right to know.
4
Does anyone seriously doubt that this is who Trump is, this is how he operates? Does anyone seriously doubt that he views the American electorate exactly the same way he viewed these club members? "They were stupid enough to do a deal with Trump -- but Trump always wins. What're they gonna do about it?"
15
Trump, if President, will do the same thing to the USA, bankrupt it, and walk away to Scotland... Trump / Honey Boo Boo in 2016...!!!
11
Thanks for a telling character study of this guy. Imagine this philosophy applied to social security commitments.
10
Yo media, pay attention. Trump's word is worthless.
He stiffs vendors and then tries to force them to accept
less money or sue him which is quite expensive.
He is The Conald.
Rubio is right. he is a con artist working the grift.
He stiffs vendors and then tries to force them to accept
less money or sue him which is quite expensive.
He is The Conald.
Rubio is right. he is a con artist working the grift.
10
Come on, Joe. If you were to dig a little deeper into this story, you'd surely discover that every one of the 150 members on the waiting list had, in his own business dealings, engaged in the same kind of tactics. These people deserve one another. If you're going to advocate for victims, find some real ones.
4
Not all business people are cheap chiseling hustlers. That trump is continually embroiled in lawsuits and is audited every year and has used bankruptcy four times; this all speaks for itself.
Marco Rubio isn't right about much, but he was right yesterday when he said Trump is a "con man." Not a successful businessman, a temporarily successful con man.
14
This is not a golf business article. It is a blatant hatchet job on Trump. Marriott ran a business model that worked for their pockets, bankrupting the club's future under a mountain of debt. Trump saw a business opportunity and the key to the future of the club, and thus for the members, is to reduce the debt so in large part there are funds available for the improvements and upgrades the club needed and that Marriott was unwilling to pursue. Our government needs to be run more like a profitable business and less like a black hole for taxpayer funds and political pandering through appointments to unnecessary committees and the proverbial $400 hammer. It may take some unpopular choices to effect a cultural change. They are long overdue. Who on the political stage has the business background and backbone to start the process?
7
If you knew anything at all about government contracting, you'd know that the "$400 dollar hammer" was the low bid. If you want to address this particular issue, aim your ire at the companies who collude on the bidding processes and reap obscene profits.
3
You want government to be run like a business? How did that work for the people in Flint MI?
3
This perhaps gives some insight why he is not providing any detailed plans regarding his rants about America being outsmarted in trade deals, arms deals and the like. The details would basically involve reneging on the agreements or unilaterally revising the terms. Iran, North Korea, and China among others on the face of things unilaterally violate from time to time the terms of agreements we make with them. If an agreement's terms are broken there is usually a process in the agreement to resolve it within a specified time frame. If a resolution can not be reached then the agreement can be terminated. Remedies in the current agreements appear to involve sanctions which may or may not be effective and in many cases are subverted. Perhaps we should begin to take a harder stance on those who violate our agreements primarily by terminating some of them. Mr. Trump might be of value here.
With respect to this domestic contract dispute one would have to examine all of the underlying agreements to determine if Mr. Trump is in compliance with its terms and conditions. Typically these types of contacts are filled with terms and conditions that favor the seller. At these prices buyers here are other businesses, shell corporations or well to do individuals. So let the courts decide.
With respect to this domestic contract dispute one would have to examine all of the underlying agreements to determine if Mr. Trump is in compliance with its terms and conditions. Typically these types of contacts are filled with terms and conditions that favor the seller. At these prices buyers here are other businesses, shell corporations or well to do individuals. So let the courts decide.
Whatever happened this is how Trump will operate as President. He makes decisions based on financial reasons, not on politics or other criteria. He will do for the USA what he did over 4 decades for his own business - negotiate hundreds of deals in our favor.
There is a reason Trump is worth Ten Billion Dollars. He knows how to win.
There is a reason Trump is worth Ten Billion Dollars. He knows how to win.
3
He's a thief. He steals. THAT'S how he's made his money.
Many have long had serious doubts that Mr. Trump has a NET worth of $10 billion. Some have speculated that the vast majority of the "trophy" assets he "owns" are highly levered. Moreover, one could view his refusal to provide copies of his tax returns until the completion of audits (allegedly in process) as a delaying tactic. Obviously a taxpayer with sophisticated tax counsel could delay the results of the audit well beyond November 2016, clouding the view of one's true net worth. American voters, regardless of their anger with the current state of American political system really need to take time to consider which of the candidates offers the "cleanest dirty shirt". It is beyond comprehension that Mr. Trump comes out on top of that evaluation.
2
Nothing on the level with Trump except maybe the water in his hazards. He caters to the rich, has no scruples and destroys anyone who gets in his way. No amount of skullduggery or obnoxiousness will deter some of his supporters. Some might even live next to me. He is sctick drek and should be condemned to a life raking sand in his traps.
4
I have been to the Trump club recently and as one member said to me hey our deposit was gone under Marriott so no big deal. The member also said at least we can use his other clubs like Mara Lago. There is a long list of clubs like that that have taken similar action but they make no news? Why is it we will continue to hear every detail about Trump but we know very little current of our current POTUS
5
Obama's been under every microscope imaginable. If you don't know at least a little something by now, you just haven't been paying attention. Or you've spent too much time in front of Faux News.
4
Time shares are one of the biggest scams down here in Florida -- and they are not part of Trump's business model? I don't get it...
5
How about the thousands of other courses that had the same thing done all over the country. It was a bubble and It is really too bad these wealthy 1 per centers lost their 200K but it happened everywhere. It had nothing to do with Trump. A lot of the phony courses with fancy clubhouses, built just before the .com bubble and after, are hayfields now and the people who bought houses in these enclaves are experiencing Florida as it used to be with all the wildlife moving in next door, i. e. gators, boars and pythons.
You have your agenda though. Bash Trump.
You have your agenda though. Bash Trump.
2
It boggles the mind how anyone could believe anything that Trump says. He and Cruz and Sanders are the worst liars. Yet they have big followings. Every time I watch a Trump rally I am reminded of the video of Hitler shown on TV back in the 50s when I was a child. Walter Cronkite had a show that showed Hitler rallies before and after he destroyed Germany. I see Trump as a present day Hitler and it scares me.
7
Can anyone tell me how many golf courses in the US actually make money? Just wondering.
1
Trump is a con man ?
Who knew ?
"Winter rules .... winter rules ... "
Who knew ?
"Winter rules .... winter rules ... "
1
Of course, if you were to ask Trump, the club is "doing fantasyic." As in a fantasy.
2
Is the point of business just to screw over people? Or is the purpose of business to provide useful products and services to society. Trump is a businessman, but he is not a great businessman. He hasn't brought useful drugs, software, or any innovation to the market. Donald Trump is a fraud.
65
Every one of his businesses, other than the one bequeathed to him by his daddy has been a miserable failure.
3
According to Milton Friedman there is only one point to business-- to make money for the owner, investors, management. Everything else is a byproduct.
1
Another editorial in the sporte section bashing Republicans. What a surprise. Thanks Joe, you are just a political hack. Great sports story on golf course real estate.
11
Shamrock, I have a bridge I'd like to sell you.
5
This is a story about troubling business practices involving a golf course. The fact that it involves a Republican is just the cherry on top.
9
This Republican knows the facts in this article to be accurate. If that puts the candidate in a bad light, he deserves it.
If you prefer the obfuscation of fact, you may prefer living under Putin or Assad.
If you prefer the obfuscation of fact, you may prefer living under Putin or Assad.
8
Dear Joe,
This is another example of your crisp, detailed and easy-to-follow reporting. I hope you'll keep following a story that tells us a lot about what Trump thinks of the rest of us (think: "one born every minute"). And maybe you'll do a follow-up on your "He'll be out before Iowa" column of September 29? Any thoughts about why people he disdains as losers vote for him?
Woody Halsey
This is another example of your crisp, detailed and easy-to-follow reporting. I hope you'll keep following a story that tells us a lot about what Trump thinks of the rest of us (think: "one born every minute"). And maybe you'll do a follow-up on your "He'll be out before Iowa" column of September 29? Any thoughts about why people he disdains as losers vote for him?
Woody Halsey
39
The people who vote for him aren't the people he does business with. His base is white, middle America -- Joe Lunchpail -- who are desperately clinging to the America of their youth, when unions had power, when rust belt manufacturing plants were churning out inferior products, when minorities knew their place. Ironically, Trump knows nothing about middle America. He is a child of privilege, and a bully, at that. He despises the very people who support him. He's just using them to get what he wants, and then he'll turn on them, too. He's never shown an ounce of compassion or empathy for anyone. He is vain-glorious, power hungry and God help us all if he gets the White House. His first move will likely be to tell anyone in Congress who opposes him "you're out."
11
This is just one instance of Trumpism run wild. Where are the public outcries?
25
If Trump were to become President and bring this type of immorality to the bargaining table with other nations and Congress, both our domestic and foreign affairs would end up catastrophically.
54
Yeah but we'd be yuge winners.
1
Trump is news these days, and this story adds insight into how Trump conducts his business. It is up to the reader to decide if this conduct is what we could expect from a (gasp) President Trump. (gosh, I choked on that...)
His clincher does not bother me at all. Too many authors merely end a story with no flair. It is pertinent to the report.