Thank you for a great article and closing with "Thomas Paine’s observation that “the most formidable weapon against errors of every kind is Reason.” should certainly be every secularist's mantra. I cringe every time a politician repeats "God bless America" inasmuch as it appears to me to be a pandering to the religious right and religious left as well as to the "Pro-life/ Antiabortionists". Then I ask myself where is the separation of church/religion and state? Clearly the phrase "God bless America" and the presidential candidates advertising their religions over and over again in their speeches is used to garner votes from the religious right and religious left who do not believe in science or the separation of church and state.
11
The great late Andy Rooney complained in a 60 Minutes program about the habit of every politician to end every statement with God Bless America. He asked: did America just sneeze?!
17
Secularists are "good without gods" and set an example by their reasonable actions. I refuse to stand for "God Bless America" even as I cherish the music of Irving Berlin. I can't say my own country's Pledge of Allegiance without choking on the words "under God" because of post-WWII anti-Communist hysteria.
Which god and whose god, anyway? Ask 20 people to define "god" and you will get 20 different answers. Look, believe in the Man in the Moon if you want to, but don't deny that we sent 12 men to its surface in the name of Science. And don't impose your beliefs on others or tar all Muslims and Jews, foreigners and atheist with an anti-Christian brush.
President Obama acknowledged "non-believers" in his 2009 Inaugural Address. Could he have done that before the election? Much progress is made through such small incremental steps!
If She exists, then God save us from the One True God and Her One True Faith!
Chevy
South Hadley, MA
Which god and whose god, anyway? Ask 20 people to define "god" and you will get 20 different answers. Look, believe in the Man in the Moon if you want to, but don't deny that we sent 12 men to its surface in the name of Science. And don't impose your beliefs on others or tar all Muslims and Jews, foreigners and atheist with an anti-Christian brush.
President Obama acknowledged "non-believers" in his 2009 Inaugural Address. Could he have done that before the election? Much progress is made through such small incremental steps!
If She exists, then God save us from the One True God and Her One True Faith!
Chevy
South Hadley, MA
10
Did God bless America during The Vietnam and Iraq Wars. Did God bless America when we had slavery and then Jim Crow? Did God bless America during The Great Depression? God always gets a lot of praise but very little blame. Has history shown that God can be all powerful and all loving at the same time?
8
I have been an atheist since my early teens. I have always thought that “benign” symbols of theism that existed in the public sphere, such as “In God We Trust” on coins, or “God bless America” after political speeches were of little practical importance. I believied that we should concentrate or keeping religious beliefs out of public science education, and out of public policy making.
I am now starting to think that I have been wrong, and that the symbols of theism in the public sphere are not at all benign. Religious beliefs have often negatively modified public policy in the last few decades. Politicians have attemted to stop the teaching of evolution in school curriculums, and/or to force the teaching of “intelligent design” in science classes. Stem cell research was denied government funding. The right to a civil marriage was denied to a segment of the population because of religious beliefs. Climate science has been ignored or denied by many in government. I am starting to think that the tolerance of “benign” symbols of theism in the public sphere helps to create a political culture that accepts religious influence on important matters of policy.
I am now starting to think that I have been wrong, and that the symbols of theism in the public sphere are not at all benign. Religious beliefs have often negatively modified public policy in the last few decades. Politicians have attemted to stop the teaching of evolution in school curriculums, and/or to force the teaching of “intelligent design” in science classes. Stem cell research was denied government funding. The right to a civil marriage was denied to a segment of the population because of religious beliefs. Climate science has been ignored or denied by many in government. I am starting to think that the tolerance of “benign” symbols of theism in the public sphere helps to create a political culture that accepts religious influence on important matters of policy.
31
The author mentions "the scientific validity of evolution" - kinda funny to me since "If an idea is not testable, repeatable, observable, and falsifiable, it is not considered scientific" - doesn't that automatically disqualify the THEORY of evolution as "scientific"?
Also "freedom of conscience" is equally foolish. Hitler was acting on what he truly believed. Religion is what teaches us right conscience. .
I think understanding what our forefathers meant when they wrote "freedom of religion" is totally lost today. Noah Webster's dictionary at the time of the writing of the constitution defined religion this: “Religion in its most comprehensive sense, includes: A. A belief in the being and perfections of God. B. A belief in the revelation of his will to man. C. In man’s obligation to obey his commands. D. In a state of reward and punishment. E. In man’s accountableness to God. F. True godliness or piety of life, with the practice of all moral duties.”*
May God bless America with His Love and wisdom, 'cause we have sorely lost our way when we think we can find answers without the Source of true wisdom.
*Source: http://www.glennbeck.com/2015/04/17/what-does-freedom-of-conscience-real...
Also "freedom of conscience" is equally foolish. Hitler was acting on what he truly believed. Religion is what teaches us right conscience. .
I think understanding what our forefathers meant when they wrote "freedom of religion" is totally lost today. Noah Webster's dictionary at the time of the writing of the constitution defined religion this: “Religion in its most comprehensive sense, includes: A. A belief in the being and perfections of God. B. A belief in the revelation of his will to man. C. In man’s obligation to obey his commands. D. In a state of reward and punishment. E. In man’s accountableness to God. F. True godliness or piety of life, with the practice of all moral duties.”*
May God bless America with His Love and wisdom, 'cause we have sorely lost our way when we think we can find answers without the Source of true wisdom.
*Source: http://www.glennbeck.com/2015/04/17/what-does-freedom-of-conscience-real...
1
God Bless America is not a Christian song. It is a Jewish song, written by Israel Beilin, whose earliest memory of life in Imperial Russia was lying on a blanket watching his house burn to ashes during one of Tsar Nicholas II's pogroms. Irving Berlin's prelude to God Bless America, which Kate Smith always sang, was
"While the storm clouds gather far across the sea
Let us swear allegiance to a land that's free
Let us all be grateful for a land so fair
As we raise our voices in a solemn prayer
"God Bless America..."
Irving Berlin was so grateful to not be running from hut to hut with black-dirt floors that he and many other Russian Jews who saw the Statue of Liberty at Ellis Island were kissing the ground that they were in America.
Of course a religious Jew from Russia would believe in God. So did Kate Smith, a religious Christian. It's a wonderful song, and this American girl of Russian Jewish heritage is a huge Kate Smith fan.
"While the storm clouds gather far across the sea
Let us swear allegiance to a land that's free
Let us all be grateful for a land so fair
As we raise our voices in a solemn prayer
"God Bless America..."
Irving Berlin was so grateful to not be running from hut to hut with black-dirt floors that he and many other Russian Jews who saw the Statue of Liberty at Ellis Island were kissing the ground that they were in America.
Of course a religious Jew from Russia would believe in God. So did Kate Smith, a religious Christian. It's a wonderful song, and this American girl of Russian Jewish heritage is a huge Kate Smith fan.
8
I'll be honest: it does not bother me to hear "bless you" or "have a blessed day." I don't believe, as a Deist, that God looks out for any of us. And I just shrug when I hear "God Bless America." Remember those first lines of H.G. Wells "War of the Worlds"?
"And early in the twentieth century came the great disillusionment."
Substitute 21st Century and you have it for our nation. We are not exceptional. No deity is looking out for us. It won't be Martians (I hope) or even the Chinese. It will be the great and ongoing accumulation of bad decisions from Vietnam to Reganomics to The Great Lie about Iraq to The People United decision to Obama's feckless treatment of ISIS to the suicidal stonewalling by the GOP about climate change.
Who will the Godly blame when it's clear America will continue to slide? People like me and you, who don't believe as they do. So be it. God Bless the World.
"And early in the twentieth century came the great disillusionment."
Substitute 21st Century and you have it for our nation. We are not exceptional. No deity is looking out for us. It won't be Martians (I hope) or even the Chinese. It will be the great and ongoing accumulation of bad decisions from Vietnam to Reganomics to The Great Lie about Iraq to The People United decision to Obama's feckless treatment of ISIS to the suicidal stonewalling by the GOP about climate change.
Who will the Godly blame when it's clear America will continue to slide? People like me and you, who don't believe as they do. So be it. God Bless the World.
2
God comes free of charge and so does Jesus. You get out of religion what you put into it. I can understand that some people don't believe in God, but I don't understand why other people's beliefs makes them angry.
5
Amen!
1
What prevents secularists from voting their convictions? What prevents the union of the unaffiliated? For what do the unreligious stand? The same answer times three. There are plenty of countries who have followed this pathway. Very few remain free. Ms Jacoby enjoys the freedom to voice her atheism in the NY Times. She does not have the freedom to silence Christians....yet.
2
Amen to that. ;-)
You do not have to believe in God to understand right and wrong and to have integrity. They are not mutually exclusive. If you are educated, and that means being skeptical, you can see the brilliance of Christ and Ghandi, their incredible insight into human behavior, . But God - that is another matter. There is simply no evidence, not a shred of it. I know that having "faith" in some higher power can set you free, put you on the right path.
2
You think it is bad here. Try living in the Middle East where you get killed for not saying it.
3
The people that scare the begeezus out of me are the ones who declare that god wants us to do this or that. That sounds like they've actully communicated with "god". Could it be ?--------- Nah!
Bravo!
1
Sorry, make that some of the "oldest cultures"...practiced some kind of religion.
1
"When fascism comes to America it will be wrapped in the flag and holding a Bible"
Sinclair Lewis
Sinclair Lewis
13
Times magazine has article on Cruz' appeal to the evangelicals; "At last somebody who embodies our values", etc. etc. and I found myself pondering what those values might be? What would somebody who had dedicated their life to Jesus look for in a candidate? Helping the impoverished and powerless? Kindness to those despised by society? Hospitality to the stranger in a strange land? Eschewing materialism? Turning the other cheek? Rich man into heaven like camel through eye of a needle? Render unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's? What of these people's beliefs has the slightest resemblance to anything Jesus said, did, or represents?
8
The French do 2 things correctly: french fries (even thought they're better in Belgium) and keeping God out of government. The USA needs to get religion and God out of politics just like the constitution says. Amen brothers & sisters !
8
Amen!
We don't know for sure that America, as you state, is "a predominantly Christian nation".
It is more correct to say that America is predominated by those who say that they are Christians.
It is more correct to say that America is predominated by those who say that they are Christians.
2
If "reason" means you put your faith in man's brilliance, count me out. Einstein didn't trust man's understanding of the universe and neither do I. He likened us to children in a library full of books written in a variety of languages. We understand, sort of, but not really.
2
The Jews, the Christians and the Muslims should learn from each other to finally understand the faith. Moses, Jesus and Mohammed were the Prophets. The Prophets were just the messengers – the guys delivering the Commandments, recommendations and instructions. Based on the Koran, we know that everything Mohammed said wasn’t the faith. That was the Koran exclusively. Mohammed said many other things that were only his personal human wisdom. The ancient Arabs tried to collect those words after his death, contrary to Mohammed desire. They collected afterwards some deeds correctly, some incorrectly. Those recorded deeds divided them into the Sunnis and the Shiites and they have been fighting each other for many centuries not over the faith but over the earthly objectives. The Jews and the Christians did the same to Moses and Christ. Some of their words were from God, some sentences were just their human thoughts. Some of their thoughts were correctly understood, some of them incorrectly. To understand the faith, we should compile the best from Moses, Jesus and Mohammed - the things that are fully compatible with each other. The Almighty doesn’t contradict His previous instructions. If anything is contradictory, those are just the human mistakes because the people incorrectly understood or recorded them as God’s words… Once we understand the faith correctly, we will be able to end the bloody wars… Then we will know that we are on the right path…
It's too bad people are so afraid all the time. How did that happen?
2
Finally see someone that may continue the work of Barbara Ehrenreich.
Thank goodness ---
Old Paul
Thank goodness ---
Old Paul
1
"…(H)ere on this world, God's work must truly be our own." ~JFK
1
Thank you so much for writing this. I am really tired of the endless pandering to religion in this country.
12
The heart, really. I know its a figure of speach, but as we all know words matter. Its all in your mind!
If you are referring to the Song, I like this song - its words and music.If you don't like the song, don't go anywhere it is sung, but don't deprive the rest of us of some we like just because you don't like it.
It is fanatics like you who get hung up over a song etc. that really know how to soil America with you nasty ideas and selfish desire to deprive people who love the song of something they enjoy.
It is fanatics like you who get hung up over a song etc. that really know how to soil America with you nasty ideas and selfish desire to deprive people who love the song of something they enjoy.
1
Thank you for this column. I too am tired of the de rigeur "God Bless America." It sounds so phony when it comes from politicians who one knows are really not of the "church lady" ilk: IE Ronald Reagan and Barack Obama. It sounds insulting and non-inclusive to a combined majority of Americans: non-christian religious people + agnostics + atheists. I blame the media too: why allow the nutty anti-abortion groups to say they are "pro-life," when we who support a woman's right to have an abortion abortion are also for life! Same with "conservative," which sounds so righteous, until you peel back the onion skin and see that they are anything but. Call them reactionary and right wing, which they are.
1
God Bless America! We are truly blessed to live in the USA!
2
Can't remember who said this . . . "There will always be good people doing good, and bad people doing bad. But for good people to do bad it takes religion."
6
Says the author, "Just once in my life, I would like the chance to vote for a presidential candidate who ends his or her appeals with Thomas Paine’s observation that “the most formidable weapon against errors of every kind is Reason.”"
Just for once in my life, I'd like to vote for a presidential candidate who is of good character. There is no one in this cycle who qualifies.
Just for once in my life, I'd like to vote for a presidential candidate who is of good character. There is no one in this cycle who qualifies.
When I was a teenager I thought I knew everything too and called myself an atheist.
3
I will put my objection to "God bless America" in the words of a 14th century monk and philosopher: "those who, like shopkeepers, want to deal with our lord do not know much truth, if any at all" . God does not distribute favors on demand.
2
One question that should be asked of any candidate waving the religious flag is "do you believe the earth was made in seven days?"
1
As someone who was once actually chased down a city street because I didn't thank a woman for saying "God bless you" after I sneezed, I say secularists shouldn't feel too threatened by ceremonial invocations of the alleged Almighty (who can't be all that mighty if He/She/It needs such a perpetual, intense sales pitch). Think of it as poetic license, like a reference to Mother Nature or the Man In the Moon.
Believers want to know what the purpose of life is without God. They're never able to explain what the purpose is with, however. Usually there's some vague allusion to God's Great And Glorious Plan. But plan for what? Who does the so-called creator of the universe need to achieve or accomplish? (It must be very boring to be God.) As for morality, the believer's favorite gotcha remains "Where do you gets your [ethics]? Do you make them up as you go along?" The obvious answer is: yes. They're called laws, changed and amended when needed, but for the most part born of a basic sense of fairness, empathy, and common sense.
But let believers say their little sayings. Noblesse oblige. Let the baby have its bottle.
Believers want to know what the purpose of life is without God. They're never able to explain what the purpose is with, however. Usually there's some vague allusion to God's Great And Glorious Plan. But plan for what? Who does the so-called creator of the universe need to achieve or accomplish? (It must be very boring to be God.) As for morality, the believer's favorite gotcha remains "Where do you gets your [ethics]? Do you make them up as you go along?" The obvious answer is: yes. They're called laws, changed and amended when needed, but for the most part born of a basic sense of fairness, empathy, and common sense.
But let believers say their little sayings. Noblesse oblige. Let the baby have its bottle.
2
May I suggest to Bernie Sanders (and any of his advisers who read these comments) my answer to the question: "Do you believe in God?" When asked, I turn it around and say "It's not important whether I believe in God. The important thing is does God believe in me."
1
Maybe for Christians to understand how distressing and unwelcome this constant call on the Lord Jesus Christ by the leaders of our secular government is to non-believers they could perform a simple thought experiment. Substitute every utterance of Jesus from a politician's mouth with Allah, or Vishnu or (for the sake of the extreme) Zeus. I can't even imagine the Christian uproar.
2
Woody Allen once said he had to break up with a girlfriend because of religion. She was an atheist and he was an agnostic, and they couldn't decide which region not to bring the child run up under.
2
I consider myself "AA".
Apathetic Agnostic.
"Don't care, don't know".
Apathetic Agnostic.
"Don't care, don't know".
1
I'm against religion, all religion. It's the worst thing ever created by mankind, meant from the beginning to control others by one, or a few "special" people who claim they are in contact with "god", and can protect those who followed.
I do believe there is a force that spawned creation, and that keeps the planets and stars from crashing into each other (usually), and that force isn't me. That's about as much of a definition as I can give for my belief.
But I would challenge those who insist that THEIR religion is the "chosen" one, by asking: "Why would something as immeasurable and limitless as you claim your god to be, settle for having a favorite? And even if it did, why would it choose you and your kind?
If I believed I could directly influence this power, I would ask it for only one thing: Please show self-anointed "righteous" how wrong they are.
I do believe there is a force that spawned creation, and that keeps the planets and stars from crashing into each other (usually), and that force isn't me. That's about as much of a definition as I can give for my belief.
But I would challenge those who insist that THEIR religion is the "chosen" one, by asking: "Why would something as immeasurable and limitless as you claim your god to be, settle for having a favorite? And even if it did, why would it choose you and your kind?
If I believed I could directly influence this power, I would ask it for only one thing: Please show self-anointed "righteous" how wrong they are.
2
Thank you so much, I am sick of these snake oil salesmen spouting religion on one hand while spuing racism and hate on the other. Ronnie Raegan was always talking about the Lord while screwing the poor to enrich the rich and the Republicans have made it a central feature of their dog and pony show.
5
Thank you, Ms. Jacoby! Can I get an "Amen!"?
I get so tired of people and their "God Bless" mess, anymore I look at them and say " Why would he ?" They usually have no answer.
2
"God bless America".
Did anyone hear America sneeze? (Or maybe it was just a hiccup.)
Did anyone hear America sneeze? (Or maybe it was just a hiccup.)
Oh the irony that the most christan candidate is not even a Christian
7
All in all, we're merely sick and tired of evangelical Christians and the like who claim the mantle of Jesus Christ and then ignore it with every move they make.
7
What's worse, the hardcore Bill Maher-type atheists who think anyone who wonders if there is something beyond science to explain the universe is an idiot, or the hardcore fundamentalists who think Maher is going straight to hell?
I'm not sure.
I'm not sure.
1
Even more important than the separation of Church and State, is the separation of Faith and Fact.
As an American, the Constitution guarantees my right to believe in God - or not believe in god. I just wish, that all of my fellow citizens, were not constantly being influenced by our politicians, to assume otherwise.
Perhaps Abbie Hoffman summed it up best, when he said: "It's one thing to say you’ve found God, and quite another, to say that you have his telephone number"
As an American, the Constitution guarantees my right to believe in God - or not believe in god. I just wish, that all of my fellow citizens, were not constantly being influenced by our politicians, to assume otherwise.
Perhaps Abbie Hoffman summed it up best, when he said: "It's one thing to say you’ve found God, and quite another, to say that you have his telephone number"
4
Act of God, (Broadway) looked at "God Bless America" from a light-hearted, yet profound perspective. It definitely captured a perspective that resonates in today's political climate.
Interesting article. Hillary has said some things about her faith on the campaign trail that the NYT has published. I recommend you read it. I actually think what she says is in line with the principals of the teachings of Jesus Christ. It also shows that the teachings of Jesus Christ intersect with 'liberal values'. Aside from abortion, it puzzles me that the GOP is the 'more christian' of the parties. All this coming from a person of Catholic background and faith.
1
The Times standing up for secular folks and puttin' a dig on those wacky religious folks. That's a first!
2
In popular usage, there is a dichotomy between "non-believers" and people of "faith."
I prefer to consider the dichotomy between people who believe in reason and people who believe in superstition.
What's important is how you live your life, not what philosophy you choose to believe.
No one mythical power forces you to live your life in a certain way, it is totally up to you. Some people might find the need for personal responsibility too daunting. But there's always hope that they will see the light.
I prefer to consider the dichotomy between people who believe in reason and people who believe in superstition.
What's important is how you live your life, not what philosophy you choose to believe.
No one mythical power forces you to live your life in a certain way, it is totally up to you. Some people might find the need for personal responsibility too daunting. But there's always hope that they will see the light.
1
My own (catholic) sister once said to me, "If you don't believe in god, what's to stop you from killing someone?" I've found that too often religion goes hand-in-hand with active unthinking and downright stupidity.
5
I was so ki was sick of the word "god" the very first time I heard it!
He knows if you been sleeping.
He knows if your awake.
He knows if you've been bad or good.
So be good for goodness sake.
Is this about Santa Claus or God?
Is there a difference? Parents use Santa to encourage their kids to be good. Then they find that Santa does not exist. Santa is replaced by God and well used to control society, make cash without productivity, and win elections. America isn't the only place, and this isn't the only time that this has happened, is happening, or will happen. Some places in the world have grown up already. It's time Americans really read and enforced the constitution so they can grow up too.
He knows if your awake.
He knows if you've been bad or good.
So be good for goodness sake.
Is this about Santa Claus or God?
Is there a difference? Parents use Santa to encourage their kids to be good. Then they find that Santa does not exist. Santa is replaced by God and well used to control society, make cash without productivity, and win elections. America isn't the only place, and this isn't the only time that this has happened, is happening, or will happen. Some places in the world have grown up already. It's time Americans really read and enforced the constitution so they can grow up too.
3
When I first began reading your opinion, I was certain I knew how it would end. I was right. Your opinion ends up talking about what you want. It is all about you. And, that of course is the whole point and why I could not disagree with you more.
3
Amen.
2
God bless America always strikes me as self-centered. What about the rest of the countries of the world. Are they not worthy? It's like a sports team that thinks God is on their side. Yogi Berra had it right, "Why don't we just let God watch this game?" And in the words of Tiny Tim, "God Bless Us Every One."
19
I propose we substitute new words for Irving Berlin's supremecist song, "God Bless America". How about words taken from Stephen Hawking's book, "The Grand Design": God is Unnecessary. Altogether now, sing!
(OK, doesn't quite scan. So, you gotta add a 16th note. I'm sure God won't mind. And Berlin is now in neither heaven nor hell.)
(OK, doesn't quite scan. So, you gotta add a 16th note. I'm sure God won't mind. And Berlin is now in neither heaven nor hell.)
Misleading title of your article.
If atheism is not faith, and there is no God, all of these arguments are baffling, since other people's belief in something that you say doesn't exist can't harm you.
2
Can I hear an "Amen!!"?
Amen
Right on! Separation of church and state - and I'm a Catholic
1
"God bless America"? Why should he? Haven't we been blessed enough? Shouldn't he bless other countries for a change? Especially the poorer ones.
1
Over the course of my life, it has been my sad experience to see that those who pompously and with self-righteousness proclaim their love of God the most....are also those who love their fellow human beings the least.
2
Atheists are welcome to not say the words. But do not try to impose yourself on others that do. Don't sing it and don't say it. When you die, don't invoke God and don't ask for forgiveness...but don't impose your wishes on me...until the religious remain a majority, you have no choice but to put up.
1
It's about time! The current crop of politicians and evangelicals must have set even Jesus to crying. And, if their god and/or Jesus are who the religious hypocrites say they are, we know that Hell is in their future.
3
Amen to that! I'm also sick of hearing "God Bless America," and I hate the song, too... I pray daily for an end to this scourge.
1
I used to say "God Bless Amway" instead, because that's how Mom's was putting her three kids through college.
Freedom of religion is also freedom from religion.
What I find unbearable is the sanctimonious proselytizing that Christians do non-stop, wearing their religion on their sleeves, then trying to shove their entire arm down my throat.
"Have you found Jesus?"
"Why do you ask? Is he lost?"
The religious pandering by people who are politicians and by definition spend their working lives lying, cheating, and taking huge bribes, especially during election cycles, constantly invokes my gag reflex.
If it wasn't so dangerous, it would be laughable how much hate so-called American Christians carry toward anyone who isn't exactly like them, and how they fervently embrace aggressive and fascist attitudes when dealing with social, moral, and financial issues. The hypocrisy is breathtaking.
What kind of gun would Jesus buy? Ask that in any church, and you will get an answer, especially from the Christians who insist that open carry in a church is the right thing to do.
What I find unbearable is the sanctimonious proselytizing that Christians do non-stop, wearing their religion on their sleeves, then trying to shove their entire arm down my throat.
"Have you found Jesus?"
"Why do you ask? Is he lost?"
The religious pandering by people who are politicians and by definition spend their working lives lying, cheating, and taking huge bribes, especially during election cycles, constantly invokes my gag reflex.
If it wasn't so dangerous, it would be laughable how much hate so-called American Christians carry toward anyone who isn't exactly like them, and how they fervently embrace aggressive and fascist attitudes when dealing with social, moral, and financial issues. The hypocrisy is breathtaking.
What kind of gun would Jesus buy? Ask that in any church, and you will get an answer, especially from the Christians who insist that open carry in a church is the right thing to do.
12
It's bad enough to see the marriage of god and sports- but seeing how god and militarism are entwined in this country is frightening.
6
I was in a coffee shop a little while ago, when a man began talking loudly to the room about "damn atheists". I don't know why Christians care what other people believe or why they feel the need to demonize non-believers. I can't imagine many non-believers who would behave that way to people of faith, but if they did, the Christians would certainly be Highly Offended. I'm sure that most Christians are not that hateful.
3
There is no god, no established religion, and no religious test for public office in our US Constitution; we also have Thomas Jefferson's great Wall of Separation between church & state which works because good fences make good neighbors.
5
I will never forgive Eisenhower for putting 'In God We Trust' on money.
7
In the great words of someone, I believe in nothing there fore I believe in something. To believe or not to believe; it thus ties us all together.. Quite delightful really/or not.
The problem here is too many Americans are totally incapable of separating the ideas of religion and morality, these are the same ideas to many.
Primary school needs to teach kids that good behavior is unrelated to faith.
Primary school needs to teach kids that good behavior is unrelated to faith.
2
What about every child in the country who stands up at the beginning of each day, puts their hand on their heart and pledges allegiance to the US "under God....".
If a child were to even think about what they are saying, do they even have the choice to refuse? And if the did, what consequence would be in store for them?
If a child were to even think about what they are saying, do they even have the choice to refuse? And if the did, what consequence would be in store for them?
6
Many people are fed up hearing empty platitudes and nonsense of religions. Behind their
superficial "make nice & poetic" words is a long history of lies, politics, tricksterism, hucksterism, fear-mongering and crimes. We don't need their nonsensical rituals, incense smoke, make-believe, superstitions, myths, music as a prop, costumes & robes, acting and hype. No time for lies and pretending. Enough!
superficial "make nice & poetic" words is a long history of lies, politics, tricksterism, hucksterism, fear-mongering and crimes. We don't need their nonsensical rituals, incense smoke, make-believe, superstitions, myths, music as a prop, costumes & robes, acting and hype. No time for lies and pretending. Enough!
4
There are no more mutually corrupting institutions than church and state.
3
Claiming to appreciate Reason, then denying the existence of God is like claiming to love music, but insisting that Mozart is a hack. Just a fraudulent, attention-grabbing claim that proves the speaker's ignorance.
1
Along with "god bless America", can we get rid of "America is the greatest country in the world"? We're not, there is no such country. But the phrase encourages division and the willingness towards violence to anyone who might dare to disagree.
7
It is true that a lot of evil is being generated by people in the name of religion. However some of the lowest levels of hell have been visited by mankind being led by the logic of reason. Some of the worst forms of totalitarian governments officially banned religion. The best compromise has been to "give Caesar what is Caesar's and give God what is God's."
I would feel less horrified if the more vigorously religious politicians were not so completely hypocritical, pushing legislation that is contrary to Jesus' teachings and fighting legislation that supports it. I guess for some voters, all a politician has to do is claim to believe. Loudly.
Yes, the day we elect an atheist President is the day this nation truly has freedom of religion.
Yes, the day we elect an atheist President is the day this nation truly has freedom of religion.
2
As a lapsed pagan, I think "god" is a divine light that does not judge, command, or care about any religion that we have cooked up for ourselves, but if one can connect to this light (and it's not hard to do), the world becomes a better place.
Love and light to all.
Love and light to all.
2
If "non-religious Americans" (or committed atheists/agnostics) object to believing candidates then they should run for office as non-believers and promote their non-religious principles as appropriate. BTW, the many millions who who died for their religious beliefs under Soviet and Chinese communists and saw religion ridiculed and pilloried in media and museums of atheism suggest that government by militant atheists/secularists would not likely be a secular bed of roses...
I don't mind candidates that talk about their faith in limited appropriate venues. What I cannot stand is the religious hypocrisy that is constantly on display, predominantly by Republicans who claim to be Christians.
3
Faith, by definition, is belief in the absence of evidence. As such, there's no arguing with it.
2
Judeo-Christian values have formed the ethical basis for Western Civilization for millennia and their tolerant and expansive philosophy and world view has allowed atheism to peacefully co-exist. The very intolerance of atheism speaks directly of its insecurity as a rational and viable world view. Atheism's intolerance invalidates itself.
2
Just last week President Obama visited a mosque. The list of deeply religious groups in America is long and Americans are constantly asked to respect their religion. But I must say, as a person who was never affiliated with any religion, deeply religious Christians, whose ancestors fled Europe for religious freedom, get constantly hassled - and manipulated by politician.
As for 'God bless America', why not? It's a tradition.
As for 'God bless America', why not? It's a tradition.
I don't understand why so many commenters are so offended by the words "God bless America". What this means to me is asking God to keep us safe and from harm. Is this so bad? The phrase doesn't mean that we wish ill-will on non Americans. Since the majority in this country believe in a God, the minority should not be trying to take away from the majority. Religion plays an important role in teaching moral and ethical values.
Call me agnostic because I find the concept of God far more believable than the concept of an infinite universe that is there for no reason.
1
From what I have read, the current US population is over 300 million. That "more than 36 million" Pew Research claims does not appear that formidable against the entire population.
2
I have no real close religious friends (they are all Republicans) because they make me uncomfortable with their 'thank God' conversations. It is very obvious that many politicians feel the need to fake their church-going attendance to gain votes. Watching Bill Maher's "Religilous" movie should be required in all high schools.
4
Let's be honest, Religion is nothing more than well practiced mythology! The faithful are encouraged to believe that invisible God(s) control their very existence and the "God(s)' require prayer, offerings, and faith in the mythology to grant believers with a better life.
George Carlin expressed it best, "There is an invisible man in the sky that demands you follow his the (10) rules, or you are damned to an eternity of fire, torture, and enslavement; but, He Loves You!"
Religion is myth, not reality!
George Carlin expressed it best, "There is an invisible man in the sky that demands you follow his the (10) rules, or you are damned to an eternity of fire, torture, and enslavement; but, He Loves You!"
Religion is myth, not reality!
5
Actually, what if God really existed? Then I guess we have to say that God "blessed" Haiti with that earthquake and Thailand with that tsunami. Why don't we all pray that God saves the blessings for some other planet, or better yet, for some other universe?
3
Of course a logical challenge exists when left-leaning atheists (I count myself as one) have to decide how to accommodate religious beliefs of aboriginal peoples.
1
Does 'reason' imply disbelief in God? Is faith then unreasonable? A careful reading of the old and new testaments in the bible reveals a very reasonable belief in the existence of God. So please don't try to equate 'reason' with atheism for example.
Also 'pro-life' is no more a misuse of the words anti-abortion, than is 'pro-choice' a misuse of the words pro-abortion. Actually, the former is more nearly correct in my view than the latter.
Also 'pro-life' is no more a misuse of the words anti-abortion, than is 'pro-choice' a misuse of the words pro-abortion. Actually, the former is more nearly correct in my view than the latter.
1
The issue of "God Bless [Anything]" would not have arisen if people did not regard a mention of God as an expression of any monotheistic religion.
The Judaeo-Christian foundation of the Ten Commandments has nothing in it about the power of the clergy, dietary rules, manner of dress, and other later restrictions invented by the theologians and imposed on the people.
Simple adherence to the Ten (or even Eleven) Commandments and the Golden Rule of Ethics would have made life much simpler.
The Judaeo-Christian foundation of the Ten Commandments has nothing in it about the power of the clergy, dietary rules, manner of dress, and other later restrictions invented by the theologians and imposed on the people.
Simple adherence to the Ten (or even Eleven) Commandments and the Golden Rule of Ethics would have made life much simpler.
I, the grand-daughter of Holocaust victims, have no idea truly and sincerely what any of this talk means but it completely alienates me and makes me wonder were on earth did I land after all what my familly went through.
2
Stop assuming that all churchgoers want politicians who are Bible-thumpers! Many of us who attend regular Sunday services believe in the separation of church and state. We want to hear about policy, not creeds. Why do the media nearly always ignore the existence of progressive Christians and progressives of other faiths?
3
Holding a belief is a personal matter. Imposing a belief (and its consequences) is a legal matter. Since not all people hold the same supernatural, authoritative beliefs (some don't hold any such beliefs), the only way to have laws apply to all people is to frame them on a basis independent of any particular religious belief. Otherwise, you wind up with tyranny.
Nothing prevents followers of religious faiths being secular and humanists. True understanding of a particular religion makes a person more humane. Unfortunately such people don't find their voice counted globally.
In pantheism, God is equated with the universe itself. As a pantheist I am therefore within, not under, God. Nor do I trust God: too many earthquakes, tsunamis and tornados to watch out for.
It was a huge mistake to add God to the paper currency and "under God" to our Pledge of Allegiance during the Cold War period. These recent changes have divided, not united, Americans. We did fine in WWII without them--if it ain't broke, don't fix it.
It was a huge mistake to add God to the paper currency and "under God" to our Pledge of Allegiance during the Cold War period. These recent changes have divided, not united, Americans. We did fine in WWII without them--if it ain't broke, don't fix it.
4
I am struck by the tone if intolerance expressed here. One's beliefs should not be used to suppress others' in my opinion.
The freedom to express and exercise religious beliefs was instrumental in the founding of ournation.
Your right to swing your fist freely ends just short of your neighbor's nose, after all.
The freedom to express and exercise religious beliefs was instrumental in the founding of ournation.
Your right to swing your fist freely ends just short of your neighbor's nose, after all.
1
I wondered when someone would finally start talking about this subject. Religion has no place in political discussion. Law is the moral compass of this country, not stories of invisible entities who, if they exist, don't appear to give a hoot about human affairs. Stop talking about the religious beliefs of the Founding Fathers. They are not relevant in today's world. Religion is for people who can't make decisions or know what to do unless someone tells them. Let cults be cults. We need to spend more money on education and it can't all be STEM subjects. The social sciences, art, music philosophy make life whole and introduce us to people's hearts. From there, we can show kids how life physically works and that is where STEM comes in.
2
For decades, I have been amazed how many speakers finish their speech by asking an all-loving God to bless America, the bully of small nations like Chile, the abuser of those who don't look or pray like us, the ignorer of women and children and the lonely and jobless.
It is so arrogant to believe that an all-knowing, all-loving God would bless all of the actions of the current and past government of the United States.
It is so arrogant to believe that an all-knowing, all-loving God would bless all of the actions of the current and past government of the United States.
2
I was a child when the Pledge of Allegiance, formerly with the phrase, "One nation, indivisible" became "One nation, under God, indivisible," and I realized that it's just a meaningless phrase.
As a non-Christian kid growing up in a very Christian world, I always noticed the underlying assumption that everyone was also a Christian, and how it influenced everything. After the Oklahoma City bombing, office buildings were lit up with a cross made of illuminated windows. That's definitely not my America!
As a non-Christian kid growing up in a very Christian world, I always noticed the underlying assumption that everyone was also a Christian, and how it influenced everything. After the Oklahoma City bombing, office buildings were lit up with a cross made of illuminated windows. That's definitely not my America!
3
Me too! I am sick and tired of God bless America. I am an atheist, agnostic knowing full well the definition of each. Does this mean we atheists are doomed? Does this mean God should only bless America, to hell with the rest of the world. Everything and every decency, humility, charity and humaneness is forgotten. We are supercilious, exceptional, the one of a kind in the world - American! In a way we verge on narcissism. ( no wonder, we have two delusional narcissists leading the frey on the Republican side. ) Just remember, if there is a God, there are plenty of important issues that needs his attention. I doubt he has the time to bless America when every Tom, Dick and Harry invokes him.
Regarding religion & God: to those who believe, no explanation is necessary. To the non-believer, no explanation will suffice. I personallly see God all around me in the natural world but understand the writer's point-of-view vis a vis the sometimes strained singing of God Bless America, especially at sporting events.
In reading over 100 of these comments (if you read them all, good for you; I have other demands on my time), I see little but passing mention of agnosticism, which I consider the true secularism. Atheism is just another religion, faith (in their case that God does not exist) in the absence of proof. Unlike believers and non believers, Agnostics maintain open minds.
1
Being sick and tired of the song 'God Bless America', Woody Guthrie penned 'This Land Is Your Land'.
1
Thank you, Susan Jacoby, for a well-thought-out essay.
The insincerity of the refrain, "May God bless you, and God bless America," which is uttered by nearly every politician after a speech (thank you, Bernie, for not falling in that trap), makes me cringe. I think of it as the response to one gigantic sneeze.
The insincerity of the refrain, "May God bless you, and God bless America," which is uttered by nearly every politician after a speech (thank you, Bernie, for not falling in that trap), makes me cringe. I think of it as the response to one gigantic sneeze.
While we fuss with the god thing might we not get rid the the American flag on football helmets? Another low level value universal akin to Pray for Rain, Peace, or Notre Dame´s Fighting Irish.
2
The problem with this argument is the failure to acknowledge that belief in "nothing" is still belief. So those who don't "ascribe to labels" are truly failing to do so... Nothingness is it's own form of something.
So what the author (and many commenters from what I've read) misses is that she doesn't really dislike that the politicians' claim to believe in something. Instead, she doesn't like that they don't have the same belief system as her. Essentially what is being said is "I don't want them to talk about belief in God... I want them to talk about belief in "reason"... And really "reason" has as many different definitions as religion. Haha. And once this is acknowledged, and the process of ACTUAL logic is applied, the argument becomes fairly ridiculous.
So what the author (and many commenters from what I've read) misses is that she doesn't really dislike that the politicians' claim to believe in something. Instead, she doesn't like that they don't have the same belief system as her. Essentially what is being said is "I don't want them to talk about belief in God... I want them to talk about belief in "reason"... And really "reason" has as many different definitions as religion. Haha. And once this is acknowledged, and the process of ACTUAL logic is applied, the argument becomes fairly ridiculous.
Yes! Yes!
Combining quotations attributed to Sinclair Lewis: When fascism comes to America it will be wrapped in the flag, carrying a cross and whistling the Star Spangled Banner (or maybe Dixie?).
3
Trickle down blessings we do not need - from these false political prophets parroting pious phases - while worshipping the golden bil... Um calves.
As an escapee of the East Texas Bible Belt, I require that any candidate who gets my vote stays away from the God Factor.
I was taught that if you believe, you believe. You do not flaunt your belief, nor do you try to 'pray yourself into Heaven' nor do you try to take anybody else with you.
None of these charlatans have the guts to say that it is nobody's business what faith one has. It's private, and it is. Case closed.
I was taught that if you believe, you believe. You do not flaunt your belief, nor do you try to 'pray yourself into Heaven' nor do you try to take anybody else with you.
None of these charlatans have the guts to say that it is nobody's business what faith one has. It's private, and it is. Case closed.
2
I was sick of it before reagan even got elected and I hadn't yet realized there was no god. What made it worse was that sickening song "Proud to be an American". Couldn't be more UN-American if he were trying to be.
If you have to tell me who you are, You aren't.
If you have to tell me who you are, You aren't.
1
As a non Christian I am deeply offended when people wear their Christianity on their sleeve, more so during election season. Why? Do people do that? You can turn blue calling yourself Christian but if you don't behave like one you are no Christian.
This op-ed tells you everything you need to know about atheism: it's just another religion. And its adherents like Ms. Jacoby and Dr. Dawkins clearly want to organize. Oh, how they emulate those they disdain.
There's a huge difference between Secretary Clinton saying "God bless you" and Senator Cruz actively trying to weave Christian doctrine into law. If a politician wants to restrict my rights because his Bible tells him so, then I'll happily organize against that effort. If another one wants to wish me her god's blessings, I'll take any positive sentiment offered.
I'd offer the same advice to a Christian who's offended by "Happy Holidays" and an atheist offended by "God bless you": Lighten up!
There's a huge difference between Secretary Clinton saying "God bless you" and Senator Cruz actively trying to weave Christian doctrine into law. If a politician wants to restrict my rights because his Bible tells him so, then I'll happily organize against that effort. If another one wants to wish me her god's blessings, I'll take any positive sentiment offered.
I'd offer the same advice to a Christian who's offended by "Happy Holidays" and an atheist offended by "God bless you": Lighten up!
I never believed in a Supreme Being. But, if there is one, she would have the accent of my old Jewish Baba, Oy Gevaldt!
1
Living and Canada, and not caring about "god', I fail to see the hang up about religion. If you worship some superstition, feel free to do so, but please don't impose it on everyone. Your supposed 'god' doesn't give a fat rat's backside about you if you lose your job and starve. Nor does he/she care if your kids OD. So stop prating about this idea and pick someone based on your perception of their ability to get things moving in government.
1
This nation was founded on Judeo Christian principles as it was a different time with different people. That being said I think candidates elude to that fact and everyone needn't take it so literally. More people are spiritual as organized religion attendance is down. Perhaps if we all did live by the commandments there would be a more peaceful, tranquil and happier world and it would not be a bad thing to remember that.
Susan, I am grateful for a nation that allows and even invites anyone of any belief to express themselves anywhere. This great country allows candidates the same privilege as you or me. Belief in Reason and belief in God are clearly not mutually exclusive. Belief in only the 5 physical senses and Reason defies reason. So does belief in 6 senses and Reason.
May we always have the freedom to believe in secularism, God, Atheism or even Agnosticism. Reason must dictate that knowledge is always subject to the frailties of the human mind, religion to the frailties of the human heart.
Kudos to anyone who has the respect for others and the 'knowledge' of our own weaknesses to allow true expression in this country.
May we always have the freedom to believe in secularism, God, Atheism or even Agnosticism. Reason must dictate that knowledge is always subject to the frailties of the human mind, religion to the frailties of the human heart.
Kudos to anyone who has the respect for others and the 'knowledge' of our own weaknesses to allow true expression in this country.
Everyone, globally, has the religion of their parents: it's the ideology of their ethnicity, which we also get from our parents, of course. (For example, the U.S. calls itself Judeo-Christian.)
So naturally it's political.
Theology is a different matter that a few specialists worry about. There are also ethical, epistemological, social, and even artistic dimensions -- all of which are, unlike what we get from our parents, optional and pursued by a relative few.
So naturally it's political.
Theology is a different matter that a few specialists worry about. There are also ethical, epistemological, social, and even artistic dimensions -- all of which are, unlike what we get from our parents, optional and pursued by a relative few.
The article seems to poke at "orthodox religion." And that can come in many forms, from Ted Crux pandering to a secular values system that claims to speak for all. On the other hand, it's been said "To renew the mind we must not just think differently but live differently." How one lives, secular or non-secular, is the key.
We have a guaranteed right to choose--or not--any religion that we wish to follow and we have a constitutional separation of church and state.
What religion a person follows is actually none of anyone's business. Sadly, it is the constant loss of privacy that puts these things in the open for people to judge another. It is personal, it isn't relevant to anyone else and it should stay that way, unless someone wants to make it publicly known what their preference is.
Maybe that is one of the problems in America--everybody has their nose in someone's business. most cultures seem to be more private and that is OK. We need to adopt such a social attitude. I tell people what I think they should know about me, the rest is my business, so America, butt out.
What religion a person follows is actually none of anyone's business. Sadly, it is the constant loss of privacy that puts these things in the open for people to judge another. It is personal, it isn't relevant to anyone else and it should stay that way, unless someone wants to make it publicly known what their preference is.
Maybe that is one of the problems in America--everybody has their nose in someone's business. most cultures seem to be more private and that is OK. We need to adopt such a social attitude. I tell people what I think they should know about me, the rest is my business, so America, butt out.
I agree completely. I recommend 1. Americans United for the Separation of Church and State
2. Freedom From Religion Foundation
3. American Humanist Society
Religion should return to the sphere of personal concern and discourse and has no place in the national discussion.
2. Freedom From Religion Foundation
3. American Humanist Society
Religion should return to the sphere of personal concern and discourse and has no place in the national discussion.
Our fears have made us foolish over the centuries. Now human beings are finally starting to come of age in bigger numbers and wake up to reality versus comforting delusions that are no longer tenable to informed thinkers. The internet is providing transparency into ideas and belief systems in opposition one's own tribe and upbringing. Knowledge is free if and when you know how to look and more people are taking the time to look more deeply and examine assumptions and current knowledge. It won't hurt. It won't bite. Truth sets you free and with the web, today it is free.
Oh, thank you! This Iowan is tired of the Christian pandering that runs so rampant during the presidential caucuses here, but rears its grating head all too frequently in general. An evangelical friend who has read the King James Version she considers the "right" one, accepts God is a "vengeful God," and she would be horrified by the biblical accounts of rape, infanticide, murder, multiple wives, etc., if they hadn't been God blessed, wondered how humans could be depended upon to do good things absent the threat of going to hell! I answered that one follows the golden rule because it is the right thing to do. Her countenance registered this as something that had never occurred to her. Egads!
Cruz speaks as if he had been a devout believer in the conservative Christian word all his life; truth is, it's just handy for the campaign. It's a very recent conversion. His tax records show the Cruz' haven't given a dime to any church (or charity for that matter) for any year he has released.
Trump goes to Liberty College and stumbles his way through "Two" Corinthians -- I would bet the Donald has only picked up a bible to stop a door. Carter is certifiably gaga, Hillary can't afford to offend anybody right now, and that leaves Marco and The Bern, the former both Catholic and Protestant, Bernie the evasive non-believer.
So ignore all the "God bless" stuff -- let it go in one ear and quickly out the other. It's as phony as the politicians (insider or out) who speak it.
Trump goes to Liberty College and stumbles his way through "Two" Corinthians -- I would bet the Donald has only picked up a bible to stop a door. Carter is certifiably gaga, Hillary can't afford to offend anybody right now, and that leaves Marco and The Bern, the former both Catholic and Protestant, Bernie the evasive non-believer.
So ignore all the "God bless" stuff -- let it go in one ear and quickly out the other. It's as phony as the politicians (insider or out) who speak it.
I'm not that worried or annoyed, because let's face it, religion is eventually going to go away. As scientific understanding grows over time, the role of superstition recedes. As the human population becomes better educated over time, fewer people can be convinced that angels exist or that 72 virgins are waiting for them in heaven.
On issue after issue politicians need to take positions that may lead them to lose. The cowardice among those who run for office is why issue after issue is surrounded by phony piety and patriotism.
Thanks for the thought provoking article. I agree on all points, although must admit that I am not a joiner or one who boldly speaks my mind when around religious folks. I prefer to be a moral person, treating everyone as I wish they would treat me, and avoiding argument with those who believe differently.
My friends and family that live near my husband and me (on the CA coast) are all non-religious, if not atheists. However, my sisters's family and friends (who, not surprisingly, live inland), are evangelicals. They pray for my husband and me to find our way to God. It must make them sad to love us so much (which I know they do), and yet also believe that we are going to hell for not accepting God. It must make them uneasy when they try to understand how we can be both atheists and kind, ethical people.
We have come to the aid of my sister's family numerous times, when their belief in God over reality has caused them to make huge mistakes. We get frustrated when they rely on state and federal programs to keep their noses above water, and yet would vote for any number of Republicans who would take all that away if possible.
But by not fighting with my evangelical family and friends, but by simply living our lives as decent, friendly non-religious people, my husband and I are able to get along with everyone, and maybe even demonstrate that we aren't the devil incarnate.
My friends and family that live near my husband and me (on the CA coast) are all non-religious, if not atheists. However, my sisters's family and friends (who, not surprisingly, live inland), are evangelicals. They pray for my husband and me to find our way to God. It must make them sad to love us so much (which I know they do), and yet also believe that we are going to hell for not accepting God. It must make them uneasy when they try to understand how we can be both atheists and kind, ethical people.
We have come to the aid of my sister's family numerous times, when their belief in God over reality has caused them to make huge mistakes. We get frustrated when they rely on state and federal programs to keep their noses above water, and yet would vote for any number of Republicans who would take all that away if possible.
But by not fighting with my evangelical family and friends, but by simply living our lives as decent, friendly non-religious people, my husband and I are able to get along with everyone, and maybe even demonstrate that we aren't the devil incarnate.
First Amendment scholars may disagree, but I believe "free exercise" referred to the practice of any religion versus one, national denomination. This was in reaction to any thoughts of a state religion vis-a-vis the Church of England. The opportunists among us twist and bend and shape meanings simply to get whatever it is they want. Many of our citizenry with a tissue-thin understanding of a candidate are content to give him/her a vote on the basis of the candidate's espoused connection to organized religion. Because ours is a country founded on religious freedom. Nope. Not really. We were founded on a business proposition that included some nice perks, especially for land-owners of the day. No matter what a candidate says, the God whose name they brandish with abandon, is usually nowhere to be found once s/he is elected to office.
We must be a blessed nation when our biggest gripe is people invoking God Bless America. So perhaps it has worked. We are the largest economy in the world and the #1 superpower.
At a broader level I always find it interesting when people believe they have all the answers and if only people would be like me the world would be much better. That is blind faith and a level of arrogance that is worth reflecting on. Ironically atheists have this same level of conviction as many of the most zealous religious types.
Atheists can be very touchy about other peoples' beliefs but I never understood why they should take it so personal. After all if the other person is a fool then let them wander down their blind road. Our line of demarcation has to be when people are threatened by someone's beliefs. Radical Islam is the most egregious at this point in time as the extreme remedy for non-conformance is chopping off heads.
I also wonder why if reason is the only thing to believe in then why don't we buy completely into Darwin's Survival of the Fittest and put away the conventions of civilization and rule of law and just take what we want. Why the charade that we care for the weak when there is no benefit? Let them die. If I get hauled in front of a judge I just tell him/her I was exercising reason.
As another commentator said the longer I live the less I believe I have all the answers. Perhaps that is wisdom.
At a broader level I always find it interesting when people believe they have all the answers and if only people would be like me the world would be much better. That is blind faith and a level of arrogance that is worth reflecting on. Ironically atheists have this same level of conviction as many of the most zealous religious types.
Atheists can be very touchy about other peoples' beliefs but I never understood why they should take it so personal. After all if the other person is a fool then let them wander down their blind road. Our line of demarcation has to be when people are threatened by someone's beliefs. Radical Islam is the most egregious at this point in time as the extreme remedy for non-conformance is chopping off heads.
I also wonder why if reason is the only thing to believe in then why don't we buy completely into Darwin's Survival of the Fittest and put away the conventions of civilization and rule of law and just take what we want. Why the charade that we care for the weak when there is no benefit? Let them die. If I get hauled in front of a judge I just tell him/her I was exercising reason.
As another commentator said the longer I live the less I believe I have all the answers. Perhaps that is wisdom.
A minor clarification.
“religious freedom” is...code for...imposing faith-based values on others...Secularists must hold candidates to account when they insult secular values."
The only values shared by all secularists is that "Freedom of religion" means Equal Freedom of all (or all law abiding) religions. And that means none will be discriminated for or against in determining public policy or personnel. And that means all "faith based" reasons for them will be ruled inadmissible.
Religions are organizations for marketing god stories or the god stories themselves. "Faith" means dogmatically accepting myth as reality; it should be limited to very private life. And then only if they are subordinate to civil law.
Religious values might be admissible--but only if for non-religious (secular) reasons.
Thus the French now add "laicite" to "liberty fraternity and equality." It makes explicit that equality implies secularism in all aspects of polity.
The variations on religion and polity correspond to variations on god stories. "Latries" refer to religions and polity; theisms refer to the god/gods stories. Thus with a little fudging
Polytheism--"polylatry" (many allowed).
Monotheism--monolatry (only one allowed).
Henotheism and "henolatry" (many allowed; but one is superior.)
Atheism (non-theism)--alatry (none allowed).
Secularists need not be "a-latrists" (USSR). But preaching myth as overruling law or science should be subject to false or unsubstantiated advertising law.
“religious freedom” is...code for...imposing faith-based values on others...Secularists must hold candidates to account when they insult secular values."
The only values shared by all secularists is that "Freedom of religion" means Equal Freedom of all (or all law abiding) religions. And that means none will be discriminated for or against in determining public policy or personnel. And that means all "faith based" reasons for them will be ruled inadmissible.
Religions are organizations for marketing god stories or the god stories themselves. "Faith" means dogmatically accepting myth as reality; it should be limited to very private life. And then only if they are subordinate to civil law.
Religious values might be admissible--but only if for non-religious (secular) reasons.
Thus the French now add "laicite" to "liberty fraternity and equality." It makes explicit that equality implies secularism in all aspects of polity.
The variations on religion and polity correspond to variations on god stories. "Latries" refer to religions and polity; theisms refer to the god/gods stories. Thus with a little fudging
Polytheism--"polylatry" (many allowed).
Monotheism--monolatry (only one allowed).
Henotheism and "henolatry" (many allowed; but one is superior.)
Atheism (non-theism)--alatry (none allowed).
Secularists need not be "a-latrists" (USSR). But preaching myth as overruling law or science should be subject to false or unsubstantiated advertising law.
I am not a 'non-believer'. I believe devoutly that human beings share almost every aspect of what it is to be alive. We love, hope, work, strive, and are given to anger, compassion, gratitude, envy, desire. What I see in my very diverse extended family is the effect of orthodox religion, whether Judaism or Born-Again Christianity, on the brain. In every case those relatives are the most narrow minded, unforgiving, and hateful of difference. They "know" what is handed to them from on high: they are right and the rest of civilization is composed of lesser beings, unworthy in the sight of their particular concept of a god. As for reasoning with them? Impossible. They've already made up their minds.
1
The problem I have with "God Bless America" and the like is that Biblical Christianity and American culture are often inconsistent with each other. I'm an atheist now, but when I was a Christian, I had trouble reconciling our capitalist-based system with the teachings of Christ and the actions of the apostles in the New Testament (who essentially were completely selfless and lived very simple lives). I think that's part of why I *am* an atheist--because the two things were in such tension. (Not to mention the death penalty, our obsession with guns, etc.)
And a President of the United States is going to have to do some pretty terrible things in order to protect our country--Bush's/Obama's drone campaign, for example. A true Christian, I think, would have trouble doing those things. I think those things need to get done--so I wouldn't want a true Christian as President. But I hate the fakeness of our American Christianity where every presidential candidate bends over backwards to convince us of how much of a Christian s/he is.
And a President of the United States is going to have to do some pretty terrible things in order to protect our country--Bush's/Obama's drone campaign, for example. A true Christian, I think, would have trouble doing those things. I think those things need to get done--so I wouldn't want a true Christian as President. But I hate the fakeness of our American Christianity where every presidential candidate bends over backwards to convince us of how much of a Christian s/he is.
Some of the oldest religions practiced some kind of religion. Some of their practices were barbaric, but they came out of an innate desire to explain or accept life. One of my favorite awakenings was learning that the ancient Egyptians placed the bodies of the dead in small boats and sent them across the rivers "to the other side". The boats were equipped with tools and artifacts for the dead person to use in the next life. It's a great image of a faith with life after death and it's a great comfort. Nothing wrong with that. So what if we don't see or know everything that is. What I don't like is the current thinking that debunks scientific discovery. That is more unreasonable than anything else.
Interesting you forgot that it was also the devotees of Enlightenment who framed the American Constitution.
And the most important insight of the reason-based Enlightenment is that human knowledge is limited and prone to mistakes, which is the theoretical foundation of the modern system of checks and balances. The Enlightenment destroyed the foundation of ideological monopoly, which is the defining characteristic of the Dark Ages and the Communist sphere. Blaming communism on the Enlightenment betrays ignorance. Communism is the mirror image of religious absolutism and they are both enemies of the Enlightenment.
The Enlightenment was fundamentally agnostic. It was not against Christianity; what it was against is the monopolistic and dictatorial power of Christianity of the Middle Ages or any belief system of that nature.
Al Luongo San Francisco 22 hours ago
One reply here suggests the need for a new Age of Reason.
During the last "Age of Reason" the devotees of Enlightenment smashed all the priceless stained glass windows of Notre Dame Cathedral, an act equivalent to what Al Qaeda and ISIS have been doing, to let in more light. And then, of course, they started feeding people to the guillotine.
And let's not forget the enlightened, atheist governments of the Soviet Union and Communist China.
Lack of belief in God is no guarantee of either reason or sanity.
And the most important insight of the reason-based Enlightenment is that human knowledge is limited and prone to mistakes, which is the theoretical foundation of the modern system of checks and balances. The Enlightenment destroyed the foundation of ideological monopoly, which is the defining characteristic of the Dark Ages and the Communist sphere. Blaming communism on the Enlightenment betrays ignorance. Communism is the mirror image of religious absolutism and they are both enemies of the Enlightenment.
The Enlightenment was fundamentally agnostic. It was not against Christianity; what it was against is the monopolistic and dictatorial power of Christianity of the Middle Ages or any belief system of that nature.
Al Luongo San Francisco 22 hours ago
One reply here suggests the need for a new Age of Reason.
During the last "Age of Reason" the devotees of Enlightenment smashed all the priceless stained glass windows of Notre Dame Cathedral, an act equivalent to what Al Qaeda and ISIS have been doing, to let in more light. And then, of course, they started feeding people to the guillotine.
And let's not forget the enlightened, atheist governments of the Soviet Union and Communist China.
Lack of belief in God is no guarantee of either reason or sanity.
1
Literally, almost every conflict in human history is religion based. Organized religion has no place in a world where people have an education. I'm not talking about spirituality or a belief in some greater power. It's the closed minded rules based hate filled we are the only true one groups. All of the current religions. Outdated and counter productive.
1
Thank you, Ms. Jacoby, for your thoughtful piece that brings attention to the diverse secular population in our country. I and every other secularist I have encountered hold and practice very strong values, those upon which Christianity and other religions were predicated: compassion, kindness and the willingness to help those in need. Unfortunately, many organized religions have transformed those original values into dogma, and some followers have taken that dogma to the extremes of fundamentalism. I would argue that many secularists do "join" other groups, for example the Unitarian Universalists, Quakers, Doctors Without Borders, to name a few, in large-scale efforts to respond to human crises, rather than sitting on the sidelines watching others coalesce under the banner of their religions. We also "join" numerous non-religious and politically effective organizations that bring about change and support candidates who will do the same, thus flexing our strong, political muscles. Invoking "God" in campaign speeches and other events has no place, as does asking a candidate whether he/she believes in God, what her/his religion is, etc. Politicians, who after all are running for public office, ought to be heeding the separation of church and state, a principle from which government officials have also strayed. Shouldn't we be judging candidates on their basic values and policy platforms, rather than on their religious beliefs, or lack thereof?
1
There is a clear legal pathway waiting for any secular group with the guts to launch it.
The "anti-abortion" movement - is blatantly a product of evangelical Christians. Who are striving to write their religious belief into national law.
This is not only expressly forbidden by the Constitution; it undermines one of the main factors that have held this country together for 200 years, in the face of many challenges; "Yours is yours, mine is mine, but we are both Americans." No longer.
The anti abortionists have taken great pains to see that their movement is never framed as a matter of religion; rather calling it "universal morality", or sometimes hoping for a scientific basis. Those are intentional deceptions.
And it's provable. In court. Sue.
The "anti-abortion" movement - is blatantly a product of evangelical Christians. Who are striving to write their religious belief into national law.
This is not only expressly forbidden by the Constitution; it undermines one of the main factors that have held this country together for 200 years, in the face of many challenges; "Yours is yours, mine is mine, but we are both Americans." No longer.
The anti abortionists have taken great pains to see that their movement is never framed as a matter of religion; rather calling it "universal morality", or sometimes hoping for a scientific basis. Those are intentional deceptions.
And it's provable. In court. Sue.
3
I quote the piece:
The presumption is that candidates have everything to gain and nothing to lose by continuing their obsequious attitude toward orthodox religion and ignoring the growing population of those who make up a more secular America.
Let's stand this on its head. In this increasingly secular nation, with citizens more rightly concerned about domestic policies and the increasingly elusive environmental and global harmony, and less so about Rapture or being damned for choosing non-traditional relationships and families, it seems that candidates have much to lose by their visible pandering to the religious (mostly) right. And the right itself has a lot to lose. In '00, they stampeded to the corral of George W. Bush and his "evangelical" views. And were they not disappointed and aggrieved? I predict ditto should Mr. Cruz be the nominee, despite his assertions that he's a "Christian first." (Please debate if that self-aggrandizing sound bite was gamed-out.) In his mind, perhaps, but that has limited or no appeal to a majority of secular citizens whose votes he cannot win without, and likely works against him. If CruzRubio politicians seeking to close the deal with exclusionary evangelical voters also then alienate the many devout but more open-minded millions who believe that Jesus was primarily about inclusiveness, tolerance and chastising the money-changers, then these Republicans are much more likely to be in the unemployment office, not the Oval one.
The presumption is that candidates have everything to gain and nothing to lose by continuing their obsequious attitude toward orthodox religion and ignoring the growing population of those who make up a more secular America.
Let's stand this on its head. In this increasingly secular nation, with citizens more rightly concerned about domestic policies and the increasingly elusive environmental and global harmony, and less so about Rapture or being damned for choosing non-traditional relationships and families, it seems that candidates have much to lose by their visible pandering to the religious (mostly) right. And the right itself has a lot to lose. In '00, they stampeded to the corral of George W. Bush and his "evangelical" views. And were they not disappointed and aggrieved? I predict ditto should Mr. Cruz be the nominee, despite his assertions that he's a "Christian first." (Please debate if that self-aggrandizing sound bite was gamed-out.) In his mind, perhaps, but that has limited or no appeal to a majority of secular citizens whose votes he cannot win without, and likely works against him. If CruzRubio politicians seeking to close the deal with exclusionary evangelical voters also then alienate the many devout but more open-minded millions who believe that Jesus was primarily about inclusiveness, tolerance and chastising the money-changers, then these Republicans are much more likely to be in the unemployment office, not the Oval one.
Most people in the US are proud to identify themselves as religious.
The overwhelming majority of those expressing support for somebody going through hard times, volunteer the fact that they are praying for them.
As an atheist, I wonder whether these prayers are real or just a sample of a societal convention. I have been told that very religious people tend to resent these expressions as a trivialization of their beliefs and practices.
I can't avoid feeling that many religious people, maybe the majority, practice a religion as a societal convenience.
The great majority of these religious people have attended Bible Sunday school or other Christian schools; many of them, maybe a majority, do not exhibit any moral values. I am now thinking of the atrocious murder of the 13 year old girl at the hand of those two Virginia Tech students, both of them with Christian backgrounds.
I find it astounding that people are able to think of themselves as religious while they exhibit a complete lack of moral values.
This characteristic is common to all major religions. Consider Jack Abramoff who, after serving his sentence for defrauding several native american tribes, still described himself as a practicing Orthodox Jew.
As an atheist, I really do not care whether god exists or not, apparently he is unable to keep many of his followers on the straight and narrow.
I am not against religion. I don't believe in organized religion.
The overwhelming majority of those expressing support for somebody going through hard times, volunteer the fact that they are praying for them.
As an atheist, I wonder whether these prayers are real or just a sample of a societal convention. I have been told that very religious people tend to resent these expressions as a trivialization of their beliefs and practices.
I can't avoid feeling that many religious people, maybe the majority, practice a religion as a societal convenience.
The great majority of these religious people have attended Bible Sunday school or other Christian schools; many of them, maybe a majority, do not exhibit any moral values. I am now thinking of the atrocious murder of the 13 year old girl at the hand of those two Virginia Tech students, both of them with Christian backgrounds.
I find it astounding that people are able to think of themselves as religious while they exhibit a complete lack of moral values.
This characteristic is common to all major religions. Consider Jack Abramoff who, after serving his sentence for defrauding several native american tribes, still described himself as a practicing Orthodox Jew.
As an atheist, I really do not care whether god exists or not, apparently he is unable to keep many of his followers on the straight and narrow.
I am not against religion. I don't believe in organized religion.
What's so depressing is that all this pandering to religion on the part of politicians would have been considered illegal as well as outright seditious by the Founding Fathers, the majority of whom were deists, Masons, or 18thc versions of atheists. 150+ years of war among Catholics, Anglicans, and Dissenters had taught them that religion has no place in the public sphere of law and governance, so they went out of their way to codify freedom from any particular religion in the Bill of Rights. It's the polarized Culture Wars, aided by the pandering of the media toward whatever causes controversy, that has brought both pro- and anti-religion extremists out of their respective closets. The presence of any and all religion in law and governance has universally caused disastrous oppression, now and in the past.
1
It is unfortunate how those with a mythology-based belief system pervert the governance of America. Job #1 is to end the special-interest tax exclusions given to property used for religious purposes; let them pay their fair share of property and related taxes. Job #2 is to stop accommodating the mythology-oriented when they seek to bar activity in locations deemed by them to be "sacred" or the like; the fact that someone's ancestors thought some mountain or plain was sacred should mean absolutely nothing in siting decisions. Job #3 is to revise a myriad of laws and regulations to make clear that the bias on decision-making is to be secular and scientific rather than "accommodating" to the mythologically inclined. Let them honor Odin, Zeus and assorted flying djinns and fairies on their own properties and with their own money; read the tales carefully and note how they resemble comic books and childrens' fables.
1
I'm fed up with God Bless America, too. I'd take God off our currency and out of our Presidents' speeches. Religion is a private thing and different for each person. This idea that an old man up in the clouds is looking out for one country, or one group of people, in particular, defies logic and reinforces tribal differences among us that frequently lead to armed conflict. I believe religion is one of the most divisive and dangerous memes ever developed by humanity.
1
I a m an atheist and I am perfectly fine with "god bless america". Sp I would encourage the writer not to speak on behalf of all who do not believe. My atheism is an intellectual choice. At the same time I recognize the importance that religion continues to play in a cohesive functioning of the society. I was raised in one where this brake was missing, and I dis not enjoy that alternative. The fact is that evolution (!) has caused the religion to exist as a better survival strategy for a group of humans. And the further we seem to stray form that arrangement, the more structural problem we seem be developing in our society. So please, with sugar on top, leave the "God bless America" alone and get worked up about ....let's say diversity...or something.
1
One of the many things that sets America apart from her peers is not just the creeping acceptance of religion in politics - but the current expectation of it, but God forbid that it was anything other than the singular, isolated brand of American Christianity that came tumbling out of a politician's mouth.
Here, our politicians give the most tokenistic nod towards faith that they can get away with (while, indeed, work is under way to dismantle the Catholic Church's sway over some school entry places), or otherwise only mention God in the most naturalistic, harmless, in-passing way (eg "Yes, a big fire broke out at the building, but nobody was hurt, thank God") - and that's it.
Watching, and listening, to how the Christian God has be one steadily more important to American politics, and politicians, has been unsettling, to say the least - we note with great unease the rise, prominence and importance of 'Evangicals' (or: Christian extremists and zealots, as they'd be viewed over here) to the American presidential race - and how certain politicians are bending over backwards to get their vote.
Unless politics and governance is secular, The People can never be served equally. If I was an American Jew, Muslim, Sikh, Atheist (it's a long list), I'd find this blatant, overt chasing of a particular religious grouping's vote to be not just discriminatory, but very unsettling.
What place in modern America for The Other, now?
Here, our politicians give the most tokenistic nod towards faith that they can get away with (while, indeed, work is under way to dismantle the Catholic Church's sway over some school entry places), or otherwise only mention God in the most naturalistic, harmless, in-passing way (eg "Yes, a big fire broke out at the building, but nobody was hurt, thank God") - and that's it.
Watching, and listening, to how the Christian God has be one steadily more important to American politics, and politicians, has been unsettling, to say the least - we note with great unease the rise, prominence and importance of 'Evangicals' (or: Christian extremists and zealots, as they'd be viewed over here) to the American presidential race - and how certain politicians are bending over backwards to get their vote.
Unless politics and governance is secular, The People can never be served equally. If I was an American Jew, Muslim, Sikh, Atheist (it's a long list), I'd find this blatant, overt chasing of a particular religious grouping's vote to be not just discriminatory, but very unsettling.
What place in modern America for The Other, now?
The God thing is very ingrained in the U.S even if a quarter of us don't think anything supernatural exists. The question is, do we take umbrage at it, let it be, occasionally shock people with statements that puncture the balloon with ridicule or humor? Certainly we must combat any attempt to impose religious requirements but treading on the long held ,mostly brainwashing induced, beliefs of people who take religion seriously doesn't seem to produce any converts to secular reasoning. As a pro-choice practicing obstetrician I would, at times, especially near Christmas, ask my office personnel what they would say if a little Jewish girl were to walk in seeking an abortion saying that god made her pregnant? My son says that if intelligent design exists it was intelligent design by an idiot. As for God Bless America, why not? Its not bad music more musical than The Star Spangled Banner, actually I often complain about the current rage of people trying to sing both as dirges, not as anthems. And when did land,asin land of the free, get two syllables anyway? I just can't get too worked up about the need for politicians to kow-tow to the religious, but the momentum is towards agnosticism/atheism, I don't think we need to get a million non-believer march going just yet
I was thrilled when Barack Obama, in his first inaugural address, threw an olive branch to "nonbelievers" in the usual list of "regardless of race, religion, creed," etc., etc. who should be embraced by America. OK, I'm uncomfortable with "nonbelievers" -- most of us have beliefs, often more hard-won and carefully considered than those of people who've been told what to believe all their lives -- but I don't have a better all-encompassing term. Thank you, Mr. President, for remembering us. I first felt really excluded in 6th grade, when "under God" was added to the daily Pledge of Allegiance. When I was struggling with my draft board over my opposition to the Vietnam War, I couldn't legally be seriously considered because I didn't pretend that I had God on my side. When I volunteered for Habitat for Humanity, I'd just stand back during the opening prayers. And I really resent that my taxes are supporting -- through exemptions -- organizations that are fighting furiously to impose their views on the rest of us.
One, after reading this diatribe and comments, would think we are a secular Germany or France. Believe (nice word) it or not but this country was founded by people of faith. Not only faith in God, but faith in each other and in the divine destiny of America. Christians do not know what is going to happen when they take their last breath any more than any stripe of non-believer. we just have hope. You folk do not seem to have any...you should try it. It gives us peace.
I believe ....
that America's Constitution was deliberately written to exclude religion from government
I believe ....
that those who parade their religion for political advantage offend both their god and their country's ideals
I believe ....
that our government should be based on reason and a person's interpretation of the wishes of their personal deity
that America's Constitution was deliberately written to exclude religion from government
I believe ....
that those who parade their religion for political advantage offend both their god and their country's ideals
I believe ....
that our government should be based on reason and a person's interpretation of the wishes of their personal deity
6
The last time I checked the Ten Commandments, the teachings of Christ and the Koran, there was no instruction requiring us to ask God to bless anybody or any country in the world.
It’s preposterous for anybody to instruct God how to do His job. The truth is exactly opposite. The more we implement His instructions and commandments, the more we are going to be blessed.
However, there was a previous comment asking how to compile two seemingly opposite instructions of the Almighty: “an eye for an eye” and Christ’s “if someone slaps you, turn the other cheek”.
Both those statements are fully compatible.
The first statement limits the amount of the retaliation: the punishment cannot be worse than a crime.
Of course, it’s better to forgive, but if we did it constantly, the bad people would have it their way.
We all know that we have only two cheeks. So, if slapped once, it could be a mistake or incident on a part of the perpetrator. If we forgive the first time, we would cut the number of our confrontations and conflicts by 50%. If we forgive the first time it means we can control our hubris and ego.
But, the question is what if we were slapped the third time in a row?
We don’t have an extra cheek to offer.
That’s the moment for the resistance if we choose so. If not, we can forgive again. It’s the individual choice.
God has given us freedom to choose.
It’s preposterous for anybody to instruct God how to do His job. The truth is exactly opposite. The more we implement His instructions and commandments, the more we are going to be blessed.
However, there was a previous comment asking how to compile two seemingly opposite instructions of the Almighty: “an eye for an eye” and Christ’s “if someone slaps you, turn the other cheek”.
Both those statements are fully compatible.
The first statement limits the amount of the retaliation: the punishment cannot be worse than a crime.
Of course, it’s better to forgive, but if we did it constantly, the bad people would have it their way.
We all know that we have only two cheeks. So, if slapped once, it could be a mistake or incident on a part of the perpetrator. If we forgive the first time, we would cut the number of our confrontations and conflicts by 50%. If we forgive the first time it means we can control our hubris and ego.
But, the question is what if we were slapped the third time in a row?
We don’t have an extra cheek to offer.
That’s the moment for the resistance if we choose so. If not, we can forgive again. It’s the individual choice.
God has given us freedom to choose.
Everyone that is so upset about "God Bless America" how about not taking off work during Christmas. You can show your disdain by working while the rest of us enjoy time with our families ;)
You can't reason a person out of something they came to without reason.
I don't argue with superstitious folk, and I won't vote for a candidate who's proud to say they have an imaginary friend.
“Alice laughed. 'There's no use trying,' she said. 'One can't believe impossible things.'
I daresay you haven't had much practice,' said the Queen. 'When I was your age, I always did it for half-an-hour a day. Why, sometimes I've believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast."
Lewis Carroll sums up Republigun leadership pretty well.
I don't argue with superstitious folk, and I won't vote for a candidate who's proud to say they have an imaginary friend.
“Alice laughed. 'There's no use trying,' she said. 'One can't believe impossible things.'
I daresay you haven't had much practice,' said the Queen. 'When I was your age, I always did it for half-an-hour a day. Why, sometimes I've believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast."
Lewis Carroll sums up Republigun leadership pretty well.
6
I am Catholic, but strongly believe in a secular country. Tolerance is the the goal. I would deplore a "Christian Caliphate" Ted Cruz et Pere. You are a threat to liberal, yes liberal democracy!
4
"Anyone who seeks anything in religion other than the saving of his/her own soul, is in for a disappointment." I believe that's either St. Francis de Sales or Thomas a Kempis.
All charismatic and evangelicals--get outta my face!!!!
All charismatic and evangelicals--get outta my face!!!!
3
Yes, as others have mentioned, "God Bless America" is a song. I have hated that song my whole life. There are so many reasons -- The song is musically insipid and lyrically saccharine. God was never one of my beliefs. America isn't *that* perfect. There's no reason a God should bless one country over others. And finally, in public school I was required to sing that hyper-patriotic, pseudo-religious song I disliked.
19
I'm not the sharpest knife in the drawer but common sense says that if there is a higher being I sure would want his blessings more than his judgement or indifference.
I see this thread is still alive, which is good news.
When W launched the latest series of wars, I, an atheist and pacifist who was raised religious but achieved apostasy at age 9 based upon pure reason, said the following:
The wars are tragic but there is a silver lining: W is going to prove the worst thing to ever happen to religion in American history. The churches are going to go along to get along and thereby destroy their own moral authority.
And, thus, it came to pass...
When W launched the latest series of wars, I, an atheist and pacifist who was raised religious but achieved apostasy at age 9 based upon pure reason, said the following:
The wars are tragic but there is a silver lining: W is going to prove the worst thing to ever happen to religion in American history. The churches are going to go along to get along and thereby destroy their own moral authority.
And, thus, it came to pass...
16
It's especially embarrassing in the context of God somehow favoring us vs. all other nations, or our God being better than anyone else's.
26
Or God favoring one athlete over another. "Thank you, Lord, for letting us beat the Broncos!"
Not to sound sarcastic, I think Susan could get quite a bit out of Pope John Paul II's encyclical "Fides et Ratio"
7
Thanks for writing. I'm not an atheist; I'm not only "spiritual", I'm religious. But I'm sick of "god Bless America", too. How about God - or whomever - how about God bless all nations? How about God or whomever bless the most god-forsaken? Seems to me god or whomever did bless America. Time to drop our entitled god-blessed sanctimony.
48
Can we just stop singing it in baseball games during the seventh inning stretch?
46
Why? It doesn't hurt anyone or anything. But just like an atheist to want all mild inconveniences to them eradicated. The epitome of progressive intolerance, but it's okay by them if it's just God.
I think we can all agree that Take Me Out to the Ballgame is a much better choice.
All right-thinking people know that this is when we sing Take Me Out to the Ball Game.
I got tired of watching MLB seventh inning stretches turned into somebody from the armed forces singing "God Bless America". Whatever happened to Harry Carey leading the crowd in a rousing rendition of "Take Me Out to the Ball Game"? It's a game, not a religious experience. Thanks, FoxSports, for starting this trend after 9/11...
111
Exactly. I cringe when I'm at a D-Backs game and that song starts. It's like nails on a chalkboard to me. It's even more trite now that we know that MLB is paid to "support the troops", etc.
Steve Earle wants GBA replaced with Woody Guthrie's "This Land is Your Land," and I'm alllllll for it!
1
Jeez - thought I was the only one tired of the enforced patriotism/religious experience that became part of baseball only after 9/11.
Just two quotes from two famous atheists:
"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities." - Voltaire 1694 to 1778
"One real world is enough." - George Santayana 1863 to 1952.
We needn't live as long as they did to recognize the wisdom of their words. We only need look around us. Between endless sectarian strife and accelerating climate change, we humans have a full plate in the here and now without worrying about our just desserts in the hereafter.
"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities." - Voltaire 1694 to 1778
"One real world is enough." - George Santayana 1863 to 1952.
We needn't live as long as they did to recognize the wisdom of their words. We only need look around us. Between endless sectarian strife and accelerating climate change, we humans have a full plate in the here and now without worrying about our just desserts in the hereafter.
31
A Nietzsche quote: "There is not enough love in the world, to hand it over to imaginary beings".
What Voltaire said must be true because it rhymes, right?
The first amendment to the United States constitution provide
that "No religious test shall be ever required to any office or
public trust under the united States". Ted Cruz should sit down
and read the Constitution thoroughly before being on his knees
praying to be the next president.
that "No religious test shall be ever required to any office or
public trust under the united States". Ted Cruz should sit down
and read the Constitution thoroughly before being on his knees
praying to be the next president.
38
Prey, rather than pray seems to be appropriate here.
No religious test sure. But it may just help to have a faith and even say a prayer once in a while. You are so wound up its funny.
"Why, for example, would any secular Republican (yes, there are some) think of supporting the many Republican politicians who have denied the scientific validity of evolution?"
In short, because people just don't make voting decisions like this. There are certainly single issue voters, but I doubt anyone's support for a candidate hinges on belief for or doubt of evolution. This is a simplistic view given the wide range of issues at hand today.
In short, because people just don't make voting decisions like this. There are certainly single issue voters, but I doubt anyone's support for a candidate hinges on belief for or doubt of evolution. This is a simplistic view given the wide range of issues at hand today.
6
The theory of evolution specifically excludes any form of divine intervention to alter which adaptations survive or perish. It is effectively atheism.
And why do so many on left deny the scientific validity of capitalism as a superior economic system to socialism?
I got over imaginary friends some time ago. Happy that many others have too.
23
Amen. I mean, right on.
23
The more Ted Cruz clothes himself in religion, the more he reveals himself for the hypocrite he is.
45
This column is important for those of us who ARE religious as well as those who are totally "secular". I gag everything I hear a political proclaim we are a Christian nation. We are decidedly not, as the first Amendment tells us. We are a nation based on secular laws that provide equal protection to believers and non believers alike.
As a practicing Catholic I would never ever dare to presume to urge others to believe what I do, or wish any Catholic legislator to support legislation favoring one religion over another.
Try as I may, I will never understand those who feel it's their job to tell others how to live or judge people based on their beliefs or lack thereof. This principle was so important to the founders that they defined a clear wall between faith and civic issues as the first order of business, having a good sense of how many wars, persecutions, and senseless killings in the name of religion had wreaked havoc in the world.
As a practicing Catholic I would never ever dare to presume to urge others to believe what I do, or wish any Catholic legislator to support legislation favoring one religion over another.
Try as I may, I will never understand those who feel it's their job to tell others how to live or judge people based on their beliefs or lack thereof. This principle was so important to the founders that they defined a clear wall between faith and civic issues as the first order of business, having a good sense of how many wars, persecutions, and senseless killings in the name of religion had wreaked havoc in the world.
67
Religion is the usual driver of population growth competition for control of land, the most common underlying reason for war since the earliest hunter-gathers killed all the game.
My "modern family " is a mixture of religious Catholic, Jewish Conservatives, and even a new family member who was raised as a Muslim. We are of white Christian Western European, Ashkenazie Jewish, Chinese, and recently Pakistani Muslim backgrounds.
We all get along and Respect each other's customs. Maybe the reason it works for us is that we all acknowledge that we are first and foremost Americans. I consider myself a Secular humanist, rather than an Agnostic. I don't even like Organized religion whatsoever, but I respect every individual 's right to practice what they wish. It certainly seems that every major monotheistic religion treats women as second class citizens.
I am leery of any political candidate who makes their "religiosity " a cornerstone of their campaign. I shudder at the thought of Ted Cruz being elected and allowed to. Appoint Supreme Court Nominees!
We all get along and Respect each other's customs. Maybe the reason it works for us is that we all acknowledge that we are first and foremost Americans. I consider myself a Secular humanist, rather than an Agnostic. I don't even like Organized religion whatsoever, but I respect every individual 's right to practice what they wish. It certainly seems that every major monotheistic religion treats women as second class citizens.
I am leery of any political candidate who makes their "religiosity " a cornerstone of their campaign. I shudder at the thought of Ted Cruz being elected and allowed to. Appoint Supreme Court Nominees!
1
Ms McMorow, your post is enough to make this secular person believe that there are some people who truly do know how to practice their religion. For that I thank you!!
1
I don't believe in God but when someone says God Bless You after I sneeze, I'm not offended. Likewise when politicians end speeches with God Bless America, I just hear a cliched idiom that doesn't mean anything; just something one says to be nice. If there are people out there who are actually comforted by the president's request for a blessing by their higher omnipotent being of choice and/or believe that this is literally happening, I imagine it must be nice to be them.
13
"God Bless America" is kind of a throw away line that has been sanitized as to having any real meaning.
It is basically akin to saying "have a nice day."
It is a phrase that many politicians say at the end of a speech to appease the religiosos. It's almost as if they have to so as to not stir up a bunch of unnecessary controversy.
I am looking forward to when politicians end their speeches with a simple "Thank you." That's all that is really necessary.
It is basically akin to saying "have a nice day."
It is a phrase that many politicians say at the end of a speech to appease the religiosos. It's almost as if they have to so as to not stir up a bunch of unnecessary controversy.
I am looking forward to when politicians end their speeches with a simple "Thank you." That's all that is really necessary.
I have become more and more secular in my beliefs as I have gotten older. One factor is the right's efforts to impose their religious beliefs on the entire population through the political system, and the hypocrisy this involves. For example, to see many of these "religious" politicians promoting ideas such as mass deportations, excluding refugees, barring certain religious groups from entry into the U.S., reducing social programs in favor of military spending in my opinion calls into question what type of moral authority these people have. Seeing the current crop of candidates conduct their campaigns like religious revival meetings really gives me pause. One the one hand they make statements such as "no one deserves to be President who doesn't start the day on his knees (or words to that effect) - Ted Cruz; or Rubio (you can't go to church enough) , but then spew the most anti "Christian" rhetoric imaginable. While they carp about religious freedom, this is not what they really mean - as the writer states, is all about the freedom to impose their religious beliefs on the population as a whole. Yes - I want to take back our country - from those trying to prescribe a specific religious vision on the nation, which is a direct violation of our Constitution.
44
Dairy Farmers Duaghter:
You could be my soul mate!
I too became much more secular as I got older (I am 62). I was raised in the Methodist Church but basically had nothing to do with it after I left my parent's house to go to college.
In my 40's I decided that Agnosticsim best described my spiritual beliefs. While I suppose it might be possible that some higher being exists somewhere in the universe I have yet to see any verifiable evidence of it and doubt I ever will.
What I predict is that as more people become educated and enlightened you will see the ranks of the religious continue to decline and the ranks of the secular continue to increase. In fact, it is already happening.
Education is the enemy of religion.
You could be my soul mate!
I too became much more secular as I got older (I am 62). I was raised in the Methodist Church but basically had nothing to do with it after I left my parent's house to go to college.
In my 40's I decided that Agnosticsim best described my spiritual beliefs. While I suppose it might be possible that some higher being exists somewhere in the universe I have yet to see any verifiable evidence of it and doubt I ever will.
What I predict is that as more people become educated and enlightened you will see the ranks of the religious continue to decline and the ranks of the secular continue to increase. In fact, it is already happening.
Education is the enemy of religion.
What's wrong with tolerance, both in religion and politics?
I don't believe in God, and I am a libertarian who generally votes Republican. But I know lots of people who do believe in God, and who are liberal Democrats. Indeed, I'm married to one.
It seems time to stop being so insular, and realize that other people can have different views and still not be an idiot. We are all creatures of emotion, not reason. Our hearts rule us, not our heads. In most things, there's no right or wrong about them.
That's why I always question those who object to the beliefs of others. Does it really hurt to hear "God Bless America"? Or "Merry Christmas"? Or "inshallah"? These thoughts are meant well, not ill.
People like Richard Dawkins with his book The God Delusion seem more condemnable. In my eyes, Richard Dawkins is just as caught up in faith and fervor as any religious fanatic. His god is "Natural Selection", and Charles Darwin is its prophet. He believes (it seems) that Natural Selection created the heavens and the earth, and all that in them are. Like any religion, that too is based on faith, not reason.
I don't object to Richard Dawkins's beliefs. But it does seem that he sees the mote but misses the beam.
We love to join groups, whether they be churches or something less formal. Tomorrow, for instance, some will root for the Carolina Panthers, other for the Denver Broncos. To each, their own.
I don't believe in God, and I am a libertarian who generally votes Republican. But I know lots of people who do believe in God, and who are liberal Democrats. Indeed, I'm married to one.
It seems time to stop being so insular, and realize that other people can have different views and still not be an idiot. We are all creatures of emotion, not reason. Our hearts rule us, not our heads. In most things, there's no right or wrong about them.
That's why I always question those who object to the beliefs of others. Does it really hurt to hear "God Bless America"? Or "Merry Christmas"? Or "inshallah"? These thoughts are meant well, not ill.
People like Richard Dawkins with his book The God Delusion seem more condemnable. In my eyes, Richard Dawkins is just as caught up in faith and fervor as any religious fanatic. His god is "Natural Selection", and Charles Darwin is its prophet. He believes (it seems) that Natural Selection created the heavens and the earth, and all that in them are. Like any religion, that too is based on faith, not reason.
I don't object to Richard Dawkins's beliefs. But it does seem that he sees the mote but misses the beam.
We love to join groups, whether they be churches or something less formal. Tomorrow, for instance, some will root for the Carolina Panthers, other for the Denver Broncos. To each, their own.
12
Yes, to each their own. So I don't want anyone in political office that pursues policy on the basis of religious doctrine. So that virtually eliminates republican political alternatives. It's a shame.
1
John, you seem to have missed the point. No one in these writings is criticizing religion, nor the practicing of it. We are resentful of those who hijack religion for their own purposes, to appeal to a specific sector of the population. No, it doesn't hurt to hear God Bless America, however it doesn't belong in what is supposed to be a secular election campaign, especially coming from those who, time & time again have proven that they don't adhere to the religious principles they purport to uphold. What candidate for any elective office has not lied? Most that I've seen have even coveted their neighbors wife!!
1
No, John, belief in evolution and the natural selection process is not based on faith "like any religion." You're just parroting what some in the clergy are telling you, to keep you from eating from the tree of knowledge.
1
Oh, please. So if these secular liberals are so bothered by the expression "God bless America", perhaps they should, in their mind, simply substitute "_____ bless America" Some suggestions: Wall Street, Super Bowl, Sex, etcetera. The majority of Americans still believe in God, whether they belong to organized religion or not. Or, finally, simply settle for being one more minority group in a society comprised of minorities. That is how the U. S. works. Enough of the me, me, me.
15
No. Sorry. That is most decidedly NOT how the U.S. works. Our constitution recognizes certain fundamental rights that are simply not subject to majority rule. And freedom of religion, which includes the option of none, is one of those fundamental rights. The entire current crop of republican presidential candidates consistently fails to recognize that we are, in our fundamental founding document, most definitely NOT a "Christian nation." If there's anyone singing a refrain of "me, me, me" here it's conservative so-called "Christians" who seem to have no acquaintance with fundamental teachings of the one they claim founded their religion. After all, they clearly seem unfamiliar with the teaching of their founder that is contained in Matthew 6:5.
1
Let me remind you that one of this nation's founding principles was the separation of Church and State. Every time you have to swear on a Bible to give testimony, every day the Congress opens with a prayer, that separation is blurred to please the faithful. Your faith or my absence of faith should play no role in the governance of a Constitutionally-secular democracy.
however, it is stuck in the pledge of allegiance, in songs to celebrate america, at the end of the state of the union, on our money, it is unrelenting, and needs to stop
I'm curious about the distinction between 'hard' and 'soft' atheists. Ms. Jacoby appears to be saying that it's about whether or not you're willing to form political alliances with religious people. Dawkins, a hero of mine (along with Jacoby and others), has frequently been described as a 'hard' atheist, but isn't he forming practical alliances?
What's the difference between the 'new' atheists and other atheists?
What's the difference between the 'new' atheists and other atheists?
2
l can try to answer your query about the difference between new and old atheism. Best I can come up with is: old atheists are those philosophers documented from far back in Greek and Roman periods if not earlier. Then there are those from the later age of reason and enlightenment. Socrates, Cicero, Lucretius, Burke, Paine, Descartes .etc
The newer or neo atheists are more modern writers, scientists and intellectuals who began to question the rising tide of severe religiosity in the post ideology Cold War era. Dawkins, Hitchens, Dannett etc.
The newer or neo atheists are more modern writers, scientists and intellectuals who began to question the rising tide of severe religiosity in the post ideology Cold War era. Dawkins, Hitchens, Dannett etc.
2
The notion that God would select Americans to bless is counter to all religions. As a practicing Episcopalian I find the "prayer" that "God bless America" most offensive. My God does not bless specific nations. It blesses everyone everywhere -Atheists, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, Christians, EVERYONE - and it's up to them whether they accept the blessing or not.
27
Let me explain it to you. "God Bless America" is not an observation. It is an entreaty that we make, as a community of Americans, to bless our uniquely American family, just as you might entreat God to bless your home and family. In doing so, you don't imply that blessing should be denied to someone else's home and family.
I think God Bless America is a neat concept. It unites us as Americans under the umbrella of God's goodness and protection, when so much else divides us.
I think God Bless America is a neat concept. It unites us as Americans under the umbrella of God's goodness and protection, when so much else divides us.
Add to this the fact that if any politician, from the White House down, does not wear an American flag pin on his or her lapel, he or she is labelled as unpatriotic. Idiocy.
25
And I guess my father, who fought on Okinawa during WW2, would not then be considered patriotic. As Dr. Johnson so cogently observed, "patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel.
I believe Obama didn't wear one early in his 2008 campaign, much to his credit, but then lost his courage when criticized for it and has worn one ever since. Too bad.
May I say..."Amen!" to your column? I absolutely loathe the sanctimonious "God Bless America" anthem and the treacly religious enthusiasm behind it that pervades the politics this year on the right. There are a lot of secularists who live a strong, consciously ethical lives who care deeply about what happens to humans and other living beings on this planet. And we're not evangelicals, we're not Catholic, we're not even mainstream Christians and no, we're not conservatives either.
21
I've come to believe that Christianity is for people who were not born with innate "Christian" values.
14
In my opinion, it starts with the Pledge of Allegiance, which ends in three false statements: "One nation, under God, with liberty and justice for all."
1) We're hardly "one" nation. We're 50 diverse and distinct states with as many sub-cultures spawned by a history of regionalism and a distrust of the other 49, Super Bowl Sunday notwithstanding.
2) "under God" a phrase added in the 1950s may appease some, but is counter to our Constitution.
3) "liberty and justice for all" has been absent for many minorities for far too long.
1) We're hardly "one" nation. We're 50 diverse and distinct states with as many sub-cultures spawned by a history of regionalism and a distrust of the other 49, Super Bowl Sunday notwithstanding.
2) "under God" a phrase added in the 1950s may appease some, but is counter to our Constitution.
3) "liberty and justice for all" has been absent for many minorities for far too long.
31
#3, and women, which are the majority.
1
In Quakerese: That friend speaks my mind.
9
Silly silly me. When I saw the title of this article, I thought it would be about banning the song at baseball games, where they try to force you to stand as if the song were the national anthem. But it is the same concept, and even though after sitting for 7 innings, I really want to stand, in the future I will stay seated. Those of us others too often feel like we are a minority. I don't think we need to organize so much as assert our right to disbelieve. And if you think sitting the song out in a military town will be easy, come join me at a Padres game. If enough people do it, they might think it's a movement.
11
Chaya, it probably won't be easy. Nor should it be because it's simply "look-at-me" rudeness.
For all the sins and atrocities this nation has taken part in- who else are we going to ask?
6
Thank you. Your comments are spot on. We will not have secular candidates until there is a secular electorate.
5
Beware the state that tries to remove God from its institutions. Revolutionary France, the USSR, Khmer Cambodia, North Korea, China. Things have not turned out well for the people in these places. For those who can live their lives morally without the parental oversize of God? Well good for you! But History shows that the majority of people can not.
6
And what about the state that imposes god on its institutions? The notion of the Enlightenment was that folks should be free from religion so that they may have freedom of religion. Go Google "nonconformist" and Church of England.
Oh, and the Spanish Inquisition (the Roman, the Portuguese, etc.) was part of a moral state? And those nations that have corporal punishment for women who wear pants in public, and the like? It seems to me that since the majority of people throughout history have lived in theocracies, and they burned people who did stuff like read the bible in translation that "the parental oversize of God" didn't help much in the morality department.
1
Sorry, Beorn, but the countries that use god as their binder haven't done well. I speak of most countries in Latin America, Asia and Africa. You cite just a few countries on these continents, but looking at the whole picture, Latin America has failed miserably to make a good life for its citizens. The conquerers brought Catholicism, and the downward spiral began. Asia is mainly Muslim and look what goes on there. And, certainly, don't forget Israel, with a theocratic bent. Look at Northern Europe, almost without exception secular, and note the progress there. They're living a their lives morally, without the parental oversize of a god. Denmark, one of the highest taxed country in Europe, secular and proud of it, and one of the happiest and safest countries in the world.I don't know why you choose France as a failed godless society. It is struggling, but is a sane and peace-loving society.
You have to rethink your theory. It doesn't hold up.
You have to rethink your theory. It doesn't hold up.
1
The less religion in public life the better.
14
"I am who I am."
then vote accordingly. humans created democracy. use it.
then vote accordingly. humans created democracy. use it.
2
The Constitution says nothing about a separation of church and state. It prohibits the establishment of a religion, as was (and still is) in Great Britain or in all the mideast countries; and prohibits the state from interfering with the free exercise of religion, as still is in Cuba, North Korea, and most Muslim countries.
A candidate is free to espouse any religious view he or she pleases. If it displeases you so much, then vote for someone whose policies you might not agree with just because he or she doesn't say "God bless America."
And for those who think that a belief in God is irrational, how rational is a belief in the goodness and rationality of humankind?
A candidate is free to espouse any religious view he or she pleases. If it displeases you so much, then vote for someone whose policies you might not agree with just because he or she doesn't say "God bless America."
And for those who think that a belief in God is irrational, how rational is a belief in the goodness and rationality of humankind?
4
Your article discusses what needs to be discussed but you much too gentle. I also take exceptions to your phrases of the US as a "Christian nation" and a secular nation". There are Americans who are Christian and who are secular but our Constitution promotes neither. Instead it is neutral sanctioning only that there shall be no state religion and no religious test for office. While your call to atheists et al to join forces needs to be followed, Cruz and Rubio should have been and be called out loud clear for violating the tenants of the Constitution in their ads and speeches...Cruz for his call that America is a "Christian country" and will stay so under his realm and Rubio for his claim that his master is the Lord, Jesus Christ. And for any of those interested following the Golden Rule is the way to go as it is truly secular...that is to treat others as you would like to be treated...and it is a rule that should be followed by believers and non-believers.
5
God does not care about secular boundaries. He doesn't privilege the US more than any other nation. God cares about people, particularly poor people, according to the Christian gospel.
2
@Sue,
And, for some people the personal pronoun for God is she, not he, whether there's a text or not.
2-6-16@10:18 pm
And, for some people the personal pronoun for God is she, not he, whether there's a text or not.
2-6-16@10:18 pm
Another belief unsubstantiated by facts.
Imagine trying to tell theists it atheists that you are a Deist! God does not bless or curse; the miracle of the universe made long ago by an inscrutable maker is enough. That won't get one elected.
1
Times readers would probably believe in God if they were told that he was evil, a Republican, and a stooge of the Koch Brothers.
4
I enjoy reading the headlines of the Wall Street Journal, Politico and The Hill to see what the greediest, what I consider "godless", republicans and other conservatives are up to. Today’s headlines in The Hill are priceless:
1. Drug CEO Shkreli to Jeb: 'I'm an avid supporter' – (Poor Jeb – just can’t get a break)
2. Murdoch floats John Kerry as last-minute Dem 2016 candidate – “The Fox News owner donated to Clinton’s presidential primary campaign in 2008, and said in 2014 he could see himself supporting Clinton in 2016 depending “on the Republican candidate totally.” In January, Murdoch urged former New York City Mayor Michael Bloomberg to enter the 2016 race amid Fox News’ feud with Republican front-runner Donald Trump. (Are WE actually going to let Rupert Murdoch tell us who OUR President will be? Not me. Ms. Hillary Rodham Clinton has my vote)
3. Fiorina on debate: 'The game is rigged' – (Really? When did you notice? The game is rigged against all women. Always has been. That is why Ms. Hillary Rodham Clinton, who is the MOST QUALIFIED CANDIDATE, has my vote.)
4. Adelson-owned Vegas newspaper endorses Rubio – (Sheldon Adelson will also not decide for me who the next President of the United States will be)
You can see more of what republicans are up to at:
http://thehill.com/
1. Drug CEO Shkreli to Jeb: 'I'm an avid supporter' – (Poor Jeb – just can’t get a break)
2. Murdoch floats John Kerry as last-minute Dem 2016 candidate – “The Fox News owner donated to Clinton’s presidential primary campaign in 2008, and said in 2014 he could see himself supporting Clinton in 2016 depending “on the Republican candidate totally.” In January, Murdoch urged former New York City Mayor Michael Bloomberg to enter the 2016 race amid Fox News’ feud with Republican front-runner Donald Trump. (Are WE actually going to let Rupert Murdoch tell us who OUR President will be? Not me. Ms. Hillary Rodham Clinton has my vote)
3. Fiorina on debate: 'The game is rigged' – (Really? When did you notice? The game is rigged against all women. Always has been. That is why Ms. Hillary Rodham Clinton, who is the MOST QUALIFIED CANDIDATE, has my vote.)
4. Adelson-owned Vegas newspaper endorses Rubio – (Sheldon Adelson will also not decide for me who the next President of the United States will be)
You can see more of what republicans are up to at:
http://thehill.com/
3
I have a good friend who is Australian, and he said this to me once:
"When the Brits colonized America, they sent over all the religious fanatics, and when they colonized Australia, we got all the criminals, and thank god for that."
"When the Brits colonized America, they sent over all the religious fanatics, and when they colonized Australia, we got all the criminals, and thank god for that."
43
I enjoyed reading this-it was quite well written and informative. However I must say that whether you consider yourself religious, non-religious, agnostic, atheist, etc., the fact is there is a Creator God who created the universe, including mankind. God created us in His image with the ability to know Him and be in fellowship with Him, because He created us with a soul that will live forever. When I die, the physical part of me goes away but my soul will live forever. Since we did not create ourselves but God created us there is a meaning and purpose for our existence. Mankind was created to honor and glorify the Creator and that should be our greatest joy and privilege and with that we are called to serve and our neighbors as ourselves.
I'm aware that no human being can do that perfectly because we are flawed people, in other words we are sinners. But God loves sinners and He punished our sins in the person of His Son Jesus Christ. Only a just and living God would do that. Therefore, believe in Jesus Christ (repent from your sins and believe that Christ took upon Himself your sins and was then resurrected...)!!!
Again, thank you Susan for the article.
I'm aware that no human being can do that perfectly because we are flawed people, in other words we are sinners. But God loves sinners and He punished our sins in the person of His Son Jesus Christ. Only a just and living God would do that. Therefore, believe in Jesus Christ (repent from your sins and believe that Christ took upon Himself your sins and was then resurrected...)!!!
Again, thank you Susan for the article.
There is always Thomas Paine, "Age of Reason', an American Revolution hero.
7
The God Thing has never irked me.
What does irk me is the shallow, hypocritical "Thank you for your service".
Another thing that irks me is in-your-face atheists who claim they have the inside track to omniscience because they are holders of the holy grail of Reason. Why are hard atheists so threatened by the masses of superstitious fools who have not been enlightened?
Maybe there is a reason the Pew studies reveal only 3.1% of Americans claim they are atheists.
What does irk me is the shallow, hypocritical "Thank you for your service".
Another thing that irks me is in-your-face atheists who claim they have the inside track to omniscience because they are holders of the holy grail of Reason. Why are hard atheists so threatened by the masses of superstitious fools who have not been enlightened?
Maybe there is a reason the Pew studies reveal only 3.1% of Americans claim they are atheists.
7
People who believe that God will provide drive the overpopulation of this planet.
5
When talking about social issues, I have never heard an atheist claiming they have the inside track to omniscience, but plenty of in-your-face pious who want to "save" all others.
10
Maybe only 3.1% "claim" publicly to be atheists, but there are a lot more of us than that. See, I just increased the percentage by coming out of the closet.
Dear Susan,
Thanks for the great piece. Liked it and agree. But I'm afraid that its one of those 'not in our lifetimes' my dear.
Thanks for the great piece. Liked it and agree. But I'm afraid that its one of those 'not in our lifetimes' my dear.
4
For those of you who are too insecure to handle public displays of religion, get used to it. The phenomenon of "non-religious" voters is likely going to peak very soon considering the amount of very religious immigrants pouring into this country. We will not long remain insulated from the worldwide trend of increasing religiosity which has even affected China, an officially atheist state. If the Communist Party of China cannot stem the tide of Christianity, Islam, and Buddhism, what makes you think that your paltry whining will make any difference?
7
The meek shall kill the planet by sheer numbers.
3
Make that 36 million and one. Nobody polled me. Living in the south, I have to whisper, "I'm an atheist," and that is only to people I really trust. I do get turned off when politicians ramble on about our "Christian" nation; I get it, but just say it at the end or something.
The group that I find most interesting right now are the Ex-Muslim groups. Talk about the need to stay under the radar on atheism in that environment. It's absurd when I really let it sink in that some places you will get killed if you are found to be an atheist, and here in the land of the free, I am still afraid to say it aloud, knowing I'd be considered a devil worshiper (which I assure you I am not).
Thanks for this article. I needed it. And I promise those of you who think atheist are bad or scary: We are very nice. We love everyone, regardless of whatever you look like or whatever god you do (or do not) pray to. We are also pretty intelligent-- and I encourage you to read up on Muslims who have abandoned religion; they will really show you how powerful the cult of religions are. Religion was created to control the masses, and it worked. And is working.
The group that I find most interesting right now are the Ex-Muslim groups. Talk about the need to stay under the radar on atheism in that environment. It's absurd when I really let it sink in that some places you will get killed if you are found to be an atheist, and here in the land of the free, I am still afraid to say it aloud, knowing I'd be considered a devil worshiper (which I assure you I am not).
Thanks for this article. I needed it. And I promise those of you who think atheist are bad or scary: We are very nice. We love everyone, regardless of whatever you look like or whatever god you do (or do not) pray to. We are also pretty intelligent-- and I encourage you to read up on Muslims who have abandoned religion; they will really show you how powerful the cult of religions are. Religion was created to control the masses, and it worked. And is working.
11
Lil50:
I am Agnostic and even though I live in Southern California I tend to keep it to myself. Like it sounds like you have experienced, some people equate Agnosticism/Atheism with worshiping Satan.
I remember back in 1962 when I was 8/9 years old that Atheism was a dirty word and Atheists were horrible people bent on destroying this country or advocating godless Communism. I of course was too young to really understand what it all meant and just fell in line with the anti-Atheist sentiment.
Atheism/Agnosticsim is a thinking person's belief system. It is based on reason, logic and verification. It is not a threat to the religious folks nor are Atheists actively trying to convert anyone. If someone asks me about my beliefs I am happy to discuss them but I have never tried to convert anyone. Instead, I am trying to provide some education and nformation when it's requested of me.
Secularism is growing in America and I expect that it will continue that way. As people become more enlightened and educated I predict that they will be drawn to a secular based belief system.
I am Agnostic and even though I live in Southern California I tend to keep it to myself. Like it sounds like you have experienced, some people equate Agnosticism/Atheism with worshiping Satan.
I remember back in 1962 when I was 8/9 years old that Atheism was a dirty word and Atheists were horrible people bent on destroying this country or advocating godless Communism. I of course was too young to really understand what it all meant and just fell in line with the anti-Atheist sentiment.
Atheism/Agnosticsim is a thinking person's belief system. It is based on reason, logic and verification. It is not a threat to the religious folks nor are Atheists actively trying to convert anyone. If someone asks me about my beliefs I am happy to discuss them but I have never tried to convert anyone. Instead, I am trying to provide some education and nformation when it's requested of me.
Secularism is growing in America and I expect that it will continue that way. As people become more enlightened and educated I predict that they will be drawn to a secular based belief system.
Well try it someday. Say during the conversation that you are a non believer.
It's quite liberating and you might be surprised by the inquiries.
It's quite liberating and you might be surprised by the inquiries.
1
Let there be God. Let there not be. We will never know, although some among us believe they know with utter certainty.
As for me, the question is neither urgent nor important. I'm okay either way. [I'm afraid i'm not even a doctrinaire agnostic.]
As for me, the question is neither urgent nor important. I'm okay either way. [I'm afraid i'm not even a doctrinaire agnostic.]
4
Yet another plea of ignorance: i.e., if science or anyone cannot disprove there's no God; there must be God.
The ultimate Identity Politics, insisting on recognition for believing in or belonging to Nothing. The bloc of those rejected by all other blocs must, necessarily, be the ultimate majority.
Have you considered just being you, like in the storybooks?
Have you considered just being you, like in the storybooks?
2
You have my vote. The Buddhists speak of it.
Who said this: "I miss going to church, but I think the Lord understands."
Give up? Ronald Reagan! (He had a perfect excuse for staying away from church while President: he didn't want a bunch of innocent fellow Presbyterians to get blown up if terrorists attacked the church he was in.)
Tomorrow would be his 105th birthday!
The Republicans' patron saint didn't go to church.
Give up? Ronald Reagan! (He had a perfect excuse for staying away from church while President: he didn't want a bunch of innocent fellow Presbyterians to get blown up if terrorists attacked the church he was in.)
Tomorrow would be his 105th birthday!
The Republicans' patron saint didn't go to church.
6
Before monotheist religions appeared, the old greeks and the old romans were pagans and didn't force anybody to believe in their gods. There were then many atheists who didn't have to worry about the authorities. Today, 99% of crimes of all kind are committed by christians here, jews in Israel and the US. and muslims in the arab world. It's obvious, that their religions didn't improve their moral content. The ones whom run our countries are showing their lack of integrity even when running for office, naturally, what can we expect when they get there? Even the bible give us a hint: "I, the lord created evil" Isa. 45:7...
2
With all the problems in the world (zika virus, ISIS), Susan Jacoby is upset about someone saying God bless America. This past week I have had to listen to subway riders scream the worst profanity on a few of my rides so hearing God bless America would not upset me too much. Would we do away with the beautiful song God Bless America which has been heard by generations of Americans? I am not ashamed to say I am a Catholic and religious just like many people on this comment board proclaim their atheism proudly. It has served me well in good times and bad and I would be nothing without God. I do not wear it on my sleeve but will defend my Catholic faith whenever the occasion arises. I have been blessed and lucky and contribute it to a higher power.
6
I learned the Pledge of Allegiance without "under god". Then, the Commie Hunters changed it. However, there still is no god, just the myth of a god(s). Instead of god bless America, perhaps we could change to 'live long and prosper'?
8
Being an atheist means that you can do good while not expecting reward from some deity after your death. After all isn't even more credible than that do good in the name of some god and hoping to reap the benefits of doing good for the act rather than a selfless act itself? Do most seriously think that those who don't believe in a god are doomed to making terrible decisions throughput their lives because they didn't have the teachings of some bible which contradicts itself at every opportunity and which was written chiefly during times when it was believe or be persecuted or killed for not doing so. Have we forgotten Galileo; where reason was over ridden by the church? Common sense and religion do not go hand in hand.
10
"Common sense and religion do not go hand in hand"
Actually, in many cases they are polar opposites.
Actually, in many cases they are polar opposites.
While it is annoying to see politicians have to kiss the ring of the Christian right it isn't especially consequential. The religious right is not as powerful as its opponents fear; it may have the odd win, as in quashing gun control, but overall it has been trounced in the culture wars and has little effect on the lives of nonbelievers; its power will continue to shrink as America becomes more multicultural.
1
What the GOP does with the religious right in order to get their votes is to talk about how Christian they are, the implication being that these religious folks will get something meaningful out of it.
But that's all the GOP basically does -- tell the religiosos what they want to hear and then do nothing of substance for them. I mean it's not like the evangelical crowd is all of a sudden going to start voting en mass for the Democrats and the GOP knows that.
The Republicans basically pander to the religious right to get their votes and nothing more.
But that's all the GOP basically does -- tell the religiosos what they want to hear and then do nothing of substance for them. I mean it's not like the evangelical crowd is all of a sudden going to start voting en mass for the Democrats and the GOP knows that.
The Republicans basically pander to the religious right to get their votes and nothing more.
This same issue has been at play in the same-sex marriage debate. People belonging to defined religious groups think their religious freedoms are impinged when same-sex people marry. The deep spiritual connection and spiritual growth that might lead two people of the same gender to marry is overlooked. It is amazing that US citizens have gone so far down the path of believing that their own religious ideas should be protected at the expense of others'.
5
Religion has become a suspension of disbelief that I am no longer willing to do.
2
Politicians, especially those on the Right, love to blather on about their religiosity, their personal relationship with Jesus, etc etc. However, the proof of being a Christian is in one's behavior. As soon as I see the GOP feeding the hungry, sheltering the homeless, giving clothing to those without - in other words, truly caring for the least of these AND loving one another - then I'll change my opinion of them. In the meantime, I know them to be the very hypocrites of whom Jesus warned.
10
God loves the poor - that is why we had a recession
3
Which and whose God should bless America? Why should any just moral God bless America? And what would any God's blessing of America include and resemble? And who would be the most morally deserving American recipients of the blessing of any God? In his Second Inaugural Address, Abraham Lincoln noted that both sides prayed to the same God to bless their cause but that God apparently only heard and answered the prayers of the enslaved black Africans.
4
I listen to the particularly heavy-handed religious babble of some of the candidates and am left thinking that there's no difference between them and the mullahs in the Middle East.
10
I do not believe in any supernatural - but I refuse to argue whether there is any god or not. Instead, with my believing friends of all faiths, I will discuss the ways in which your faith leads you and all of its behave to all others during your and their lives ! That is the question!
Religion and government should be separate like women' body issues. I like God as a metaphor,but wish some day it will be able to be taken out of all government documents. God Is not running this country or anything else. We can all be still good people ho
3
I know the athiests and agnostics are tired of God. I do not understand why they are sick and tired of it, they don't believe in God, but they live in America.
If they don't want the country that God has raised up and blessed for over 400 years, let them go somewhere, where their is a dictator who kills at will and see how they like that.
Athiests and agnostics need to realize that even though they don't want anything to do with God, they are living under His umbrella of blessings.
If they don't want the country that God has raised up and blessed for over 400 years, let them go somewhere, where their is a dictator who kills at will and see how they like that.
Athiests and agnostics need to realize that even though they don't want anything to do with God, they are living under His umbrella of blessings.
6
I see no emotion at all in nature, only implacable indifference to all human concerns.
"If they don't want the country that God has raised up and blessed for over 400 years, let them go somewhere, where their is a dictator who kills at will and see how they like that."
Maybe you should read the First Amendment about no establishment of religion and also realize that our sacred Constitution never mentions any gods and only mentions religion in a negative connotation: "but no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public
Trust under the United States."
Realizing that you live in a nation with a SECULAR constitution you might feel free to self deport as I hope the other religious fundamentalists will.
Maybe you should read the First Amendment about no establishment of religion and also realize that our sacred Constitution never mentions any gods and only mentions religion in a negative connotation: "but no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public
Trust under the United States."
Realizing that you live in a nation with a SECULAR constitution you might feel free to self deport as I hope the other religious fundamentalists will.
1
For the candidates (anyone in elected office, wanting to keep their jobs) to denounce Saudi Arabia, and/or recognize atheists, humanists, etc, as an important voting block - while a worthwhile wish - it is not just wishful thinking, but the stuff that fantasies are made of. Wow! What a country that would be!
I'd love for a viable candidate to admit to their 100% non-commitment to any Religious tradition, and refusal to pander to any of them. It would be the proverbial cow over the moon event. It would be akin to them not making up their own facts...! What a world that would be.
And should it happen, that actual truth led the campaigns, and pandering to the religious ceased - I might just suddenly believe there is a God...that a real prayer was answered...!
I'd love for a viable candidate to admit to their 100% non-commitment to any Religious tradition, and refusal to pander to any of them. It would be the proverbial cow over the moon event. It would be akin to them not making up their own facts...! What a world that would be.
And should it happen, that actual truth led the campaigns, and pandering to the religious ceased - I might just suddenly believe there is a God...that a real prayer was answered...!
3
The mainstream media, for all its supposed liberal bias and Godlessness, punishes presidential candidates who don't two the Jesus line, mostly by giving endless space and airtime to those candidates' religious persecutors. Look at what happened with Obama in 2008. He was nearly crucified for ... not being Christian enough. And it was all done in the mainstream press.
1
Amen to this article.
Since god has never existed, morality has always been and will always be a human social construct, and wars are fought because all groups will never agree on what constitutes right and wrong.
The appalling degree to which GOP candidates are willing to sell themselves as religious shills, that they explicitly intend to foist on the American public at large, is a priori evidence that they are unfit to lead.
Since god has never existed, morality has always been and will always be a human social construct, and wars are fought because all groups will never agree on what constitutes right and wrong.
The appalling degree to which GOP candidates are willing to sell themselves as religious shills, that they explicitly intend to foist on the American public at large, is a priori evidence that they are unfit to lead.
5
Polls show Americans would elect a Muslim President [nothing wrong with that, by the way - just pointing out the contrast] before they'd elect an atheist, or even an agnostic.
Atheism is still viewed linked to the canard of 'godless Communism' post WWII. I fault Eisenhower for helping to perpetuate this nonsense; the 'In God We Trust' on money, the forced prayer in schools.
The religious hysteria [and let's be honest here, that's what symbols of "God" mixed with the State always is, a form of group hysteria] became an integral part of American cultural identity post WWII, but it's slowly fading out as that era fades away. It's an embarrassing episode that will be flushed out with time.
Bring back "E pluribus unum" although I doubt you'll be hearing it [or the English equivalent of it] at the end of any stump speech or White House address anytime soon.
At least Sanders doesn't kiss every baby he sees or end every speech with 'God Bless America' - so that's a little bit of progress for those who can handle it.
Atheism is still viewed linked to the canard of 'godless Communism' post WWII. I fault Eisenhower for helping to perpetuate this nonsense; the 'In God We Trust' on money, the forced prayer in schools.
The religious hysteria [and let's be honest here, that's what symbols of "God" mixed with the State always is, a form of group hysteria] became an integral part of American cultural identity post WWII, but it's slowly fading out as that era fades away. It's an embarrassing episode that will be flushed out with time.
Bring back "E pluribus unum" although I doubt you'll be hearing it [or the English equivalent of it] at the end of any stump speech or White House address anytime soon.
At least Sanders doesn't kiss every baby he sees or end every speech with 'God Bless America' - so that's a little bit of progress for those who can handle it.
6
The more I learn about Bernie Sanders the more I like him.
He comes off to me like a rational and caring person who truly wants to help the average American.
Nothing wrong with that in my book.
He comes off to me like a rational and caring person who truly wants to help the average American.
Nothing wrong with that in my book.
I think I would vote for just about anybody who, when asked about personal beliefs, responds with: With respect, that is none of your business.
2
Religion and self-deceit work together to produce a patchwork character.
2
Why is it that atheists want to impose their belief system on all others? Let people believe what they like and go in peace. A reasoned person recognizes that he/she doesn't know what he/she doesn't know and there continue to be mystery that science hasn't solved. The problem with atheists is they think they know what they don't know, they lack imagination.
3
I am amazed at all the people who believe immortality would be tolerable to any sentient being.
1
You've got it completely backward. Atheists (and many believers) are tired of the religious imposing their beliefs on others.
Take, for example, Ted Cruz, who says the president should start every day on his knees. Who is he to tell the president how to express his faith? Or that a president should have faith (heaven forbid!)?
Take, for example, Ted Cruz, who says the president should start every day on his knees. Who is he to tell the president how to express his faith? Or that a president should have faith (heaven forbid!)?
It's not atheists who want to deny gay people equal rights. It's not atheists who demand evolution be taught in church the way the religious want creationism taught in school.
Never really thought of "God bless America" as anything but a way of the speaker to say good bye. Now you've gone and issuized the phrase. Thanks a lot.
I'm not concerned that the truly religious are affected by religious beliefs when they make decisions. What concerns me is that they use their religious beliefs as the justification for their decisions. Faith brooks no argument. Facts become irrelevant if you are basing your decision on what God has conveyed to you.
I think in this context you are very right in your complaint. Theocracy and democracy may rhyme, but they do not really go together.
I'm not concerned that the truly religious are affected by religious beliefs when they make decisions. What concerns me is that they use their religious beliefs as the justification for their decisions. Faith brooks no argument. Facts become irrelevant if you are basing your decision on what God has conveyed to you.
I think in this context you are very right in your complaint. Theocracy and democracy may rhyme, but they do not really go together.
2
I could not but gasp when I opened the NY Times and found in an article on atheism, the name of Jesus displayed in the heavens. What are the masses to think but what they learned in the cradle "the heavens declare the glory of God," and will find more comfort in that Times picture than from their Sunday afflictions from the pulpit. Seen from Manhattan, It has an apocalyptic sheen to it. "God uses the wrath of man to praise Him," they'll whisper to themselves. The picture is an uncanny refutation of everything expressed in the article, and I would not be surprised to hear of conversions due to its message.
2
Human beings have always tended to invent supernatural explanations for things we cannot explain or do not understand. These supernatural entities are imbued with whatever powers suit their inventor. These entities and powers interestingly evolve over time, but at any given time their adherents are certain that their beliefs are true! In fact, unquestioning belief is frequently part of the construction! As science and technology has evolved, and we understand more about the natural universe, some cling to the supernatural explanations, even in the face of overwhelming, incontrovertible evidence that these are not true, e.g. creationism vs evolution. They do so with the belief that abandoning their invented rules would result in some sort of breakdown in fundamental human decency and societal norms. Not true. For an alternative, see secularhumanism.org. We should focus on what is known and potentially knowable, i.e. the natural universe, and how 7 or 8 billion people can best share the planet.
Ms. Jacoby correctly describes the attempts to use the term "religious freedom" to promote and impose specific supernatural beliefs on the rest of us, recently attempting to use public money to do so! See au.org
It is clear that many (most?) of us need supernatural explanations for things not understood and I strongly believe in religious freedom, but even our founders knew that such freedom should exist for individuals and private institutions, not as part of government.
Ms. Jacoby correctly describes the attempts to use the term "religious freedom" to promote and impose specific supernatural beliefs on the rest of us, recently attempting to use public money to do so! See au.org
It is clear that many (most?) of us need supernatural explanations for things not understood and I strongly believe in religious freedom, but even our founders knew that such freedom should exist for individuals and private institutions, not as part of government.
4
Religion should never mix with politics. Our constitution forbids it. We need only look to the perversion that is "political Islam" to see what becomes of a religion and a culture drenched in politics and religion. The mixture is toxic.
4
One of the reasons for the lack of organization among secularists, as the author points out, is that there is no shared agenda apart from not wanting to be inundated with saccharine, self-serving, politically expedient, and ultimately nauseating religiosity. Tocqueville pointed out that, historically, religion gained power in America because central government was weak on the frontier--making religious law an important substitute authority--and the multiplicity of largely Protestant sects made for a separation of church and state that spared religion the taint of corruption that is inevitable when religion has a recognized place in the governmental power structure. These conditions no longer exist, and they should strip religion of its power. Why don't they? In part, because not all secularists are anti-religious and in part because certain secularists are as vituperative in their hatred of particular religions that they impel even non-religious secularists to seek out the milder company of the religious. A survey of atheists conducted at a military base a few years ago elicited some rather pointedly and vicious anti-Semitic remarks. As a secular Jew, I feel more comfortable among religious Catholics and Protestants than among these others.
2
The most prodigious butchers of humanity in the 20th century disavowed the humility born from faith in a higher power. And who are humans, who might barely comprehend or explain the earth and the stars, to be so chauvinistic to not hang their explorations of the Great Mysteries on the symbolism of a Creator or God or whatever one prefers labelling it?
My trouble with atheism is that it's taken up by far too many intellectually lazy people who prove at once in a conversation on the topic that they're as steeped in theology as a spent tea bag. "Do you read Karen Armstrong or Stephen Mitchell or Jaroslav Pelikan or Robin Lane Fox or Augustine?" is my question that stops the ranting cold, tho in the next breath draws out the most trite insecurities. I sense from their attempts to explain that what's taken up the vacuum created from kicking religion to the curb is way less spiritually nourishing. The intolerance and false certitude in their attacks-responses tell me they're as likely to be carried away by the Stalins and Pol Pots of this world than not; defenceless from the traps of demagoguery.
It's for these latter people to fill the void with a thoughtless clinging to materialism or the foibles of "thrill seeking" or fashion; "all lost in the supermarket," as Joe Strummer wrote.
If the preserved thoughts of Newton and Einstein on the subject are sympathetic to a belief in divinity then I think I'll stick with that crowd. They can back up what they're talking about.
My trouble with atheism is that it's taken up by far too many intellectually lazy people who prove at once in a conversation on the topic that they're as steeped in theology as a spent tea bag. "Do you read Karen Armstrong or Stephen Mitchell or Jaroslav Pelikan or Robin Lane Fox or Augustine?" is my question that stops the ranting cold, tho in the next breath draws out the most trite insecurities. I sense from their attempts to explain that what's taken up the vacuum created from kicking religion to the curb is way less spiritually nourishing. The intolerance and false certitude in their attacks-responses tell me they're as likely to be carried away by the Stalins and Pol Pots of this world than not; defenceless from the traps of demagoguery.
It's for these latter people to fill the void with a thoughtless clinging to materialism or the foibles of "thrill seeking" or fashion; "all lost in the supermarket," as Joe Strummer wrote.
If the preserved thoughts of Newton and Einstein on the subject are sympathetic to a belief in divinity then I think I'll stick with that crowd. They can back up what they're talking about.
6
Unfortunately, no one can "back up" an argument in favour of the existence of gods, but belief gives comfort to many that there is a higher purpose to their lives. I have no problem with that per se. I do have a problem with their selective adherence to principles that suit them and the foisting of their beliefs on others. Scientology anyone?
Belief in God is based on faith, not science evidence. While some scientists today say they believe in God, (31% in a Pew Poll), many more have doubts or simply say they have no belief in a God or anything supernatural. There are good reasons for this: there has never been peer reviewed science evidence that supports anything supernatural, and until there is, many of this countries' greatest intellects see no rational basis to conclude a God is real.
By the way, why would expect an atheist to be steeped in theology, the study of gods?
I find it interesting that the USA which is supposed to guarantee freedom of religion to all, including the right not to believe in any religion, is so obsessed with the candidates religious practices. While countries that have an official religion such as the UK Anglican/Episcopal or Sweden which is Lutheran, rarely does the subject come up at election time. For example: Margaret Thatcher was a Methodist, and Gordon Brown is a Presbyterian.
3
Finally! Leave God alone, politicians. You are not doing His work and you don't get points from intelligent people for riding coattails. Between that and the flag now required on the lapel of all office holders and candidates, important symbol and ideas are trivialized.
2
The writer may consider joining the growing trend of non-church gatherings, to paraphrase the evangelicals, "go to the non-church of your choice." And here lies the problem for atheists--these are filled with agnostics--that is, again to misquote the Quakers, "Non-Convinced" atheists. For what is the man in the street to think when in time of crisis he sees the agnostic halt between two opinions, and when urgency calls for divine assistance, he stands there smiting his breast and groans, "I don't know, I just don't know, the mind is willing, but reason is weak...., I don't know whom I have not believeth, I non-belief, unhelp my belief, for belief keeps stirrig in me..." Well, until such a time as you attain more Convincment (friend doubter), I had best pray for both of us....
2
I worship at the altar of separation of church and state.
7
We figured this out when we were in junior high school. If your parents are Jewish, you become a jew, Catholic parents-catholic children, etc., etc. Childhood indoctrination teaches religious beliefs as truth and the mind becomes branded. It is known as the Santa Claus syndrome.
The idea of a Big Guy in the sky is grown ups doing let's play pretend.
Most people continue with these beliefs to avoid having to admit they've been duped.
The idea of a Big Guy in the sky is grown ups doing let's play pretend.
Most people continue with these beliefs to avoid having to admit they've been duped.
4
that's my take on "god" Santa clause for grown ups.
"The question is ... why candidates themselves ignore the growing group of secular voters" The answer is that secular voters are generally tolerant of a wide range of beliefs, while an important group of believers will not support anybody who seems not to share their beliefs.
4
I don't know who said it, but it's worth quoting: "the absence of proof is not the proof of absence."
4
But the absence of testable, verifiable evidence IS reason to conclude absence.
How else can we decide that something does not exist?
We know that gods do not exist in exactly the same way that we know that vampires do not exist. There is not the slightest bit of empirical evidence to the contrary.
How else can we decide that something does not exist?
We know that gods do not exist in exactly the same way that we know that vampires do not exist. There is not the slightest bit of empirical evidence to the contrary.
7
It can't be proven with 100% scientific certainty that God doesn't exist. But the lack of evidence over 2,000 years is a pretty good reason to doubt it.
Correct: this means that God is possible, but not yet plausible or probable.
To be plausible or probable, one needs at least SOME validated observational evidence: so far, none for a God, or anything supernatural.
To be plausible or probable, one needs at least SOME validated observational evidence: so far, none for a God, or anything supernatural.
Everyone has a belief system that they follow 'religiously' whether secular or not. They are bound (one of the meanings of the word 'religion') to one degree or another to live by that belief system. We live in a world, by default, of action, and actions speak louder than words. The annoying and unnecessary mouthing of God this and Jesus that issuing forth from the candidates are just words. You shall know them by their actions. Consider the actions of the candidates. Only one of them does, or tries to do, that which he says: Mr. Sanders.
1
Reason and reality rule until the words of a spirit confounds the dialog. Belief is a whole language that defies reason.
2
The reason religion is so strong in humans is very simple. The more religious you are the more you are apt to have lots of children (takes a lot of faith to want, have and nurture children). You pass your genes and your culture to your children. It is simple evolution. And yes it is ironic so many religious folks denounce evolution.
1
Thank God for this article! it's about time the major media talk about getting rid of this religious fervor in our politics, in our schools, in our federal, state, and local buildings, on our money, and out of the mouths of our children.
4
It will be a great day for humanity when no one professes belief in a myth created in the deserts of Africa thousands of years ago.
4
The author emphasizes a number of different statistic, but I believe one major group is not categorized - what I will label the CINO's (Christian In Name Only). As everyone who is honest will attest, they are everywhere, no more noticeable than on any given Sunday - just have the bad luck to encounter them on your local freeway as the churches spew out their minions; their "love of neighbors" and "meek shall inherit..." attitudes seem to melt away. And that's just one circumstance - they can be found everywhere, especially within groups, such as sports events where "honoring their god above all else" doesn't seem to be in evidence, except when berating other fans when they exclaim, "by god, I'll tear your head off!" or other such banalities. Sick and tired of 'God Bless America'? You betcha.
2
The author's view (which she calls soft atheism) is clearly the more positive and pragmatic political strategy. Working with those of us in mainline, non-fundamentalist denominations (like Hillary's Methodism or Carter's non-SBC faith) can yield far more results than sour faced militant atheism parading its alleged intellectual superiority. Kudos as well to Ms. Jacoby for avoiding the false claim that the religiously indifferent are really atheists in disguise. Talk to many of them and you will find they don't have the bile that the atheist commenters here display toward persons of faith. Well at least we know which group is still the "accepted" object of bigotry and disdain at the NYT. Meanwhile we'll be accepting the blows and soldiering on to bind up the wounds, succor the homeless and ill and provide relief where we can.
2
My sour attitude about the religious derives from their successful efforts to over-ride the Constitutional delegation of limited powers with God.
4
And I wouldn't mind hearing less about families from politicians, and more about people. Working families etc, etc. Its a similar sort of appeal to the god blessing routine.
1
Praise the Lord and it's about time this viewpoint was given such mainstream exposure as on tthe opinion pages of the Times.
I love Obama but it irks me to no end as he ends almost every speech with "God Bless you -- and may God bless the United States of America."
How is it that someone as highly intelligent as he is still clings to this fantasy belief of an Invisible Coud Being in the sky? Not to mention that every time he utters that nonsense he reinforces another common mythology -- that of "American Exceptionalism."
I love Obama but it irks me to no end as he ends almost every speech with "God Bless you -- and may God bless the United States of America."
How is it that someone as highly intelligent as he is still clings to this fantasy belief of an Invisible Coud Being in the sky? Not to mention that every time he utters that nonsense he reinforces another common mythology -- that of "American Exceptionalism."
1
Ted Cruz referred to the Judeo-Christian values that built our nation in his Iowa victory speech. Where does that leave everyone else? Religion has no monopoly on values. More times than not, this kind of talk exposes a hypocrite. Which one of Ted Cruz's Judeo-Christian values leads him to the conclusion that we should carpet bomb our enemies (and their children) until the "sand glows" in the dark?
7
Don't anyone push their religiosity on me. There seems to be a trend. Those who vocalize their being "christian" act the least christian. I wonder why this is? Separation of church and state would be a good start for this country.
4
I don't want to join a secular cult anymore than I want to join a religious one.
1
>
You live in a country of religious fanatics. The fact that it is made up of different religions makes little difference.
“The tragedy is that we cannot believe the dogmas of religion and metaphysics if we have the strict methods of truth in heart and head, but on the other hand, we have become through the development of humanity so tenderly suffering that we need the highest kind of means of salvation and consolation: whence arises the danger that man may bleed to death through the truth that he realises."
Nietzsche
You live in a country of religious fanatics. The fact that it is made up of different religions makes little difference.
“The tragedy is that we cannot believe the dogmas of religion and metaphysics if we have the strict methods of truth in heart and head, but on the other hand, we have become through the development of humanity so tenderly suffering that we need the highest kind of means of salvation and consolation: whence arises the danger that man may bleed to death through the truth that he realises."
Nietzsche
1
Nietzsche is dead. He was just another bombastic blowhard coke-bottle glasses wearing nerd who was a failure with women and with people in general. He wanted to be a "blonde beast" who would awe and rule over the ignorant masses and "score" with the "hot chicks".
It's easy to understand why there are no open atheist in elections. Although the percentage of people who would vote for an atheist has finally reached 50%(half the electorate openly says they will not vote for you), in comparison, two groups that seem to be hated by many(gays and muslims) have almost 70% of the population that would vote for them. Atheist are still the bottom of the barrel.
1
My stupid governor here in Texas is pushing for the Police to put decals of a cross on their police cars. He claims it passes Constitutional muster, but I don't see how.
12
As an Oregonian who has spent the last five weeks watching the takeover of the Malheur National Refuge, I have become much more familiar with the religious underpinning of the beliefs that are driving what I would characterize as domestic terrorism. This attack, and the stand off at the Bundy Ranch that preceded it, are rooted in a fringe belief of the Mormon church. They have annotated the constitution based on revelations from god to their leaders. While I will always stand up for a person's right to believe even things I find nonsensical, I believe we have to push back with the full force of the law when they commit crimes in the name of these beliefs. We cannot allow people who believe god speaks to them to dictate how the rest of us live.
Politicians who reinforce the notion that this country is based on Christianity don't know their history. The key framers of the constitution were Deists and Unitarians. We will never get to a place where we can have a rational conversation about what does and does not belong in the public square until we do a better job of ensuring that all citizens have an accurate education in American history.
Politicians who reinforce the notion that this country is based on Christianity don't know their history. The key framers of the constitution were Deists and Unitarians. We will never get to a place where we can have a rational conversation about what does and does not belong in the public square until we do a better job of ensuring that all citizens have an accurate education in American history.
15
I think that belief in a god, absent any empirical evidence to support that belief whatsoever, should disqualify that candidate from running for any office. It shows that the candidate has no respect for the scientific process and what it stands for, and will not make decisions based on knowledge, science and research.
7
There is empirical evidence to support belief in God. Jesus of Nazareth rose from the dead. And there are claims of miracles even in our own day. But atheists reject these claims of evidence out of hand without examination. They fall into a tautology. "In order for one to rationally believe in God, there has to be evidence, ie a miracle. But miracles are impossible. So the existence of God is impossible." As you know, in using the scientific method, if there is an observation that contradicts your hypothesis, it should be examined. Is the observation flawed? Or is the hypothesis wrong? What a scientist cannot do is say, since this observation contradicts my hypothesis it must be mistaken. It seems atheist are willing to be objective in all things so long as it doesn't threaten their preconceptions about God.
4
I have strong secular leanings at 84 even though I had a strong religious upbringing. However, I remain a strong sceptic of so- called " Reason". I have experienced too much controversy among scientist who say they are using reasoning yet come to completely conclusions from the same data.
2
Great article -- thank you. Two thoughts: most persons today seem to have forgotten that the US nation-state, under the Constitution, is an explicitly secular institution. Religious tolerance is of course guaranteed by the Bill of Rights, but the establishment of a state-sponsored religion is forbidden. Also, the point about corruption of language is huge. The writer cites "pro-life" as one perversion (the proper poles are "pro-choice" and "anti-abortion"). Another example is the travesty "social justice". As Friedrich Hayek exhaustively argued, that is a meaningless phrase, conflating two vastly different spheres of human activity -- social/voluntary action vs state/coercive action. Precision of thought is no better than precision of language.
2
Step one for us - the growing numbers of 'non-believers - is to forcefully speak out whenever and wherever we may be when religion is foisteted into political discourse. On blogs, in public meetings, at political gatherings - tell them to pray at home or church, but don't proselytize their beliefs in political venues.
7
The country doesn't just exist for those who would rather not attend a church or profess a belief in a deity. It exists for all of us. As a matter of fact, many of our ancestors originally came to this land to escape religious persecution from powers-that-be who pretty much did whatever the wanted to do in the name of a God of some kind.
The Unites States is a special place. Why does anyone want to make it common? Believe, or don't. It's a choice here, not a requirement.
The Unites States is a special place. Why does anyone want to make it common? Believe, or don't. It's a choice here, not a requirement.
3
I recommend the book by John Barry, "Roger Williams and the Creation of the American Soul." This book offers answers to those who say, "This country was founded on religious freedom," and who then support this statement by referring to the establishment of the Massachusetts Bay Colony, a group of people who practiced what was the antithesis of religious freedom. who wanted freedom from persecution of their own religious beliefs but who denied freedom of religion to others, including Roger Williams and Anne Hutchison, and whose attitudes influenced the Salem Witch murders. It was Roger Williams of Rhode Island, who had been thrown out of the Massachusetts Bay Colony and saved by the local Native Americans, who established the first place where freedom of religion was actually the foundation of a government. It was because men like Jefferson, deists who were not affiliated with churches, realized the dangers of a mixture of religion and politics that this country escaped for so long the religious tribalism that is now in ascendance. I attend church, but I long for a country where people are allowed, even cherished, for their various religious beliefs and where religious people do not seek tax breaks or the making of laws because of their faith beliefs. This would seem to be love of God and neighbor. Isn't that fundamental to any religion? May we someday have true separation of church and state in America.
7
Thank you for this article. I have been cringing over the lack of separation of church and state. Religion and spirituality are private and individual beliefs which have no place in a democratic government.
7
We'll know we've matured as a nation when our national anthem reads remotely like the words to Finlandia:
My country's skies are bluer than the ocean,
and sunlight beams on cloverleaf and pine;
but other lands have sunlight too, and clover,
and skies are everywhere as blue as mine.
O hear my song, thou God of all the nations,
a song of peace, for their land and for mine.
My country's skies are bluer than the ocean,
and sunlight beams on cloverleaf and pine;
but other lands have sunlight too, and clover,
and skies are everywhere as blue as mine.
O hear my song, thou God of all the nations,
a song of peace, for their land and for mine.
7
Religion is an outgrowth of the things we fear and do not understand both in the world and in ourselves. Thus, we create physical edifices and mental images that serve as refuges where everything is explainable without explanation and reasonable without reason.
4
Many will not publicly identify as atheist or agnostic because they know that the religious are always one step away from violence.
So they avoid having a record of their non-religious feelings- a record that could one day be used to target them for violence and murder.
It is the one unifying concept of all religions- all of them, at one time or another, have sanctioned violence against unbelievers.
And, without a doubt, all of them will do so again at some point in the future.
So they avoid having a record of their non-religious feelings- a record that could one day be used to target them for violence and murder.
It is the one unifying concept of all religions- all of them, at one time or another, have sanctioned violence against unbelievers.
And, without a doubt, all of them will do so again at some point in the future.
8
"the religious are always one step away from violence"
Sure, sounds like a perfectly reasonable, logical statement (and the non-relgious know that reason and logic are the only hope for humanity). Now if you'll excuse me, I have to go to an auto-de-fe and then to
a beheading ceremony for infidels, and later to a congressional session to lobby for a law that that lectures the ignorant "little" people what and how to teach their children, under a secular "non-religious" ideology.
Sure, sounds like a perfectly reasonable, logical statement (and the non-relgious know that reason and logic are the only hope for humanity). Now if you'll excuse me, I have to go to an auto-de-fe and then to
a beheading ceremony for infidels, and later to a congressional session to lobby for a law that that lectures the ignorant "little" people what and how to teach their children, under a secular "non-religious" ideology.
1
As a lapsed agnostic (I once didn’t know, now I don’t care) I Jacoby’s perspective is most welcomed. “Believers” are generally unbelievably obtuse when it comes to respecting non-religious views. From downright condemnation to a patronizing “I’ll pray for you,” they seem oblivious to the possibility of a sincerely-held belief that doesn’t include a grand deity orchestrating everyday life.
As a retired public school teacher with four decades of experience in five U.S. states, I was sometimes questioned about my refusal to recite “…one nation under God…” in the pledge that opens the school day. When asked by a student, it was an opportunity for a brief history lesson. When asked by an adult, it was insulting.
As a retired public school teacher with four decades of experience in five U.S. states, I was sometimes questioned about my refusal to recite “…one nation under God…” in the pledge that opens the school day. When asked by a student, it was an opportunity for a brief history lesson. When asked by an adult, it was insulting.
93
Freedom OF religion also means freedom FROM religion.
11
Believe what you want, just don't write it into MY laws.
6
Thanks, Susan. I’ve read 3 of your major books & enjoy your writing. I’m an agnostic Humanist & a card-carrying member of the American Humanist Association, but it wasn’t your secular-orientated writing that “converted” me to Humanism, nor the writings of the “New Atheists” like Christopher Hitchens, Richard Dawkins & Sam Harris, all of whose major works on atheism I’ve read. It was religious fundamentalists who did it -- the Muslim radicals overseas & the Christian radicals in this country. The latter told me they strongly believe in a person who emphatically & explicitly said not to make war & violence, & love our enemies, while they were simultaneously enthusiastically endorsing unnecessary warfare and torturing of prisoners. This contradiction led me to the conclusion that this belief of theirs may not be true.
-Joe Locascio
-Joe Locascio
5
So, then we can expect Bernie Sanders to defund Catholic Charities? After all, the organization gets 66% of its budget from taxpayer money.
Bravo — me too, Sick and Tired of ‘God Bless America’
Bernie Sanders answer is the best, “I am who I am. And what I believe in and what my spirituality is about, is that we’re all in this together.”
Like him, I adhere to the Golden Rule, "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you," — there is much wisdom in the Bible as a poetic text, problematic when taken literally.
Bernie Sanders answer is the best, “I am who I am. And what I believe in and what my spirituality is about, is that we’re all in this together.”
Like him, I adhere to the Golden Rule, "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you," — there is much wisdom in the Bible as a poetic text, problematic when taken literally.
7
Great piece — yes, Sick and Tired of ‘God Bless America’
Agree with Bernie, “I am who I am. And what I believe in and what my spirituality is about, is that we’re all in this together.” also support adherence to the Golden Rule, “do unto others as you would have them do unto you” — amen.
Agree with Bernie, “I am who I am. And what I believe in and what my spirituality is about, is that we’re all in this together.” also support adherence to the Golden Rule, “do unto others as you would have them do unto you” — amen.
4
I’m an atheist and a really good moral person! I support the Richard Dawkins Foundation with donations. They are providing teaching materials on evolution for teachers who are stuck in schools where only creationism has been taught. That is only one ongoing project of the RDFRS.
We aren’t here to bash religion, but to enlighten folks on science, reason, and logic.
I write letters to President Obama on a variety of matters--health care, care of our vets, homelessness, and just to say I support him.
I have received two letters back from him. One in May of 2009 and one Feb of 2015.
In the 2009 letter he wrote: “Dear Friend" and ended it with a biblical verse and “God bless you.
HOWEVER in 2015 he wrote: Dear Nuschler and Obama did NOT enclose a biblical verse or any “God bless you.” Obama has evolved! Good for him and good for America!
We aren’t here to bash religion, but to enlighten folks on science, reason, and logic.
I write letters to President Obama on a variety of matters--health care, care of our vets, homelessness, and just to say I support him.
I have received two letters back from him. One in May of 2009 and one Feb of 2015.
In the 2009 letter he wrote: “Dear Friend" and ended it with a biblical verse and “God bless you.
HOWEVER in 2015 he wrote: Dear Nuschler and Obama did NOT enclose a biblical verse or any “God bless you.” Obama has evolved! Good for him and good for America!
6
Now if we can only get the government to stop funding 66% of Catholic Charities' budget.
2
A Majority of Americans now believes they can divorce or split up with no serious damage to their children. Americans now believe they can prosper when government spends more than it takes in and print more money to cover any debt with no higher costs for essential commodities and services. Americans now believe they can codify sodomy into law by legalizing gay marriage without putting children at risk.
Americans’ immoral choices have changed Americas’ historical glory for that which has no chance of success.
Americans’ immoral choices have changed Americas’ historical glory for that which has no chance of success.
5
Where were all those moral good people when the south (a church on every corner) had Jim Crow laws and lynchings?
6
One nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. Remember when the pledge said that. It was beautiful. Pledges are generally ridiculous. See Catch 22 Major ____de Coverley's response to the loyalty oath: "Give me eat! Give everybody eat!"
My sainted mother, a devout Baptist, said adding "under God" to the pledge was an act of treason and taught us never to say the pledge again. Would there be more like her.
My sainted mother, a devout Baptist, said adding "under God" to the pledge was an act of treason and taught us never to say the pledge again. Would there be more like her.
9
after the preacher was friend from iran, all credit was given in the evangelical press to prayer- none to the diplomats who made it happen and none at all to the "muslim" president obama. evanglicals care about their own and the rest of us are in their way.
4
SO GREAT! My personal credo is "the irrelevance of god." It is, for me, an irrelevant conversation. If there is a god, which I cannot imagine is the case, I'll know after I'm gone. In the meantime, my actions are shaped and governed by what makes a difference here and now - what brings compassion, what allows for greater freedom, what reduces the suffering that seems endemic for humanity. This all too often doesn't seem to be the driving set of concerns for people who profess religious conviction.
5
This article ignores the practical reason why politicians use religious appeals to the faithful, which is that it's much more efficient to target groups who are united by a common belief, rather than those who have no common principles to follow. What the author refers to as "secular values" are really just her personal political views, which are fine, but every individual has those. You can't organize around nothing, so accept your fate as a "secularist" and just ignore the religious language.
2
The issue is a complex one. Kate Smith's voice is strident and harsh. On the other hand, the Flyers rule.
Those who are in office and flaunt their religion make me wonder if they believe they are somehow morally and culturally superior to those of us who do not subscribe to a religion or subscribe to a different religion. Can Ted Cruz or Donald Trump truly represent the Muslims, Jews and Atheists in America without bias? Can they truly represent blacks and Hispanics with their moral superiority complex. Religion can truly be blinding light in those who are not open to other possibilities and beliefs. I would much prefer a person who follows the Red Road.
2
Do we remember a time in recorded history when ethics and morality were not originated by and or associated with various religious traditions and their god(s)?
If not, it follows that they cannot be dissociated from each other and we have all non believers included been influenced by this aspect of religions' past.
If not, it follows that they cannot be dissociated from each other and we have all non believers included been influenced by this aspect of religions' past.
1
Your lack of imagination saddens me. Thought, like life, can evolve. Morality may have its roots in religion but that does not mean that it cannot exist without it any more than life cannot exist outside of the ocean.
4
Who could be sad in Barcelona? Even the name makes one want to dance, among other pleasures. Of course morality and ethics can and do now not only exist without but often enough even trump religion. If our ethics developed before religion we have no record or memory of that so our value have been influenced by religions regardless of our present beliefs.
If you want to get a feeling for the concept of infinity, think of all the possible religious systems that can be constructed from a belief in the supernatural.
There are no constraints.
There are no constraints.
2
I allocate significant time to help very low-income children n a variety of ways.
That is my religion.
That is my religion.
5
Sanders' statements about his religion (or lack thereof) are striking--as much a departure from the usual hypocritical rhetoric as his "democratic socialism" (even comparing the U.S. unfavorably to secular Europe!); his rehabilitation of "progressivism" (though not quite "liberalism"); and his call for a "political revolution" ("revolution"?!). To me Sanders' response to Kimmel was pretty candid: "I'm a secular Jew, committed to social justice." That's what's most notable about the present moment (granted new levels of Cruz-like unctuousness on the Republican side). Similarly, the language about "gays" has shifted with incredible speed to language about the "LGBT community," and the "homosexual agenda" is becoming a distant memory. And I wouldn't have expected a Presidential candidate to refer to "mass incarceration" or to addiction as a disease requiring treatment--these are shifts in the language of Presidential politics that I (at age 54) never imagined. G-d bless us!
3
Good op-ed Ms. Jacoby. I guess I'm surprised that so many people don't have a grasp of American history and civics. Didn't we all have to pass a test before leaving high school? The country was established on the very notion that we get to believe what we believe, and worship (or not) as we see fit. I further think that a truly conservative view is that the government has no business putting its thumb on the scale of religious beliefs. I have my beliefs, but I am not so arrogant as think I have all the answers.
3
How I miss the days when religion was personal, to be protected and kept separate from government, and not a matter for politcall pandering. If the evangelicals can see any of the R candudates as people of genuine faith, then they are more deluded than I imagined. Rubio with his fingers in all the religious right pies, is the most amusing of the pnderers.
4
Reason indeed.
I do not want a president who believes in the rewards or punishments of afterlife influencing his or her judgements that will have an effect on a pluralistic society. I want a leader who is invested in this life.
I do not want a president who believes in the rewards or punishments of afterlife influencing his or her judgements that will have an effect on a pluralistic society. I want a leader who is invested in this life.
7
May I invite the Secularists, Atheist and others who do not believe in a creator or creation to read Buddhist text ' Eightfold Path' and 'Dependent Origination' that help to understand the cause and effect of our existence and how to manage it. Thanks.
I'm a Christian (Episcopal), and I get sick of all this 'God bless America" nonsense, too.
Jesus himself referred to public figures who paraded their religiosity as "whited sepulchres," whitewashed tombs that looked pretty from the outside but concealed decaying bodies.
I find that politicians who talk about "God this" and "Christian that" are the most likely to love war (except for the part about they or their children actually risking their lives in one) and weapons, worship sociopathic billionaires, and despise the poor, all of which are contrary to the Bible they claim to revere.
Jesus himself referred to public figures who paraded their religiosity as "whited sepulchres," whitewashed tombs that looked pretty from the outside but concealed decaying bodies.
I find that politicians who talk about "God this" and "Christian that" are the most likely to love war (except for the part about they or their children actually risking their lives in one) and weapons, worship sociopathic billionaires, and despise the poor, all of which are contrary to the Bible they claim to revere.
7
Thank you for a thoughtful and balanced discussion of an important issue -- and not only during this election season. I was horrified when, during one of the debates, Marco Rubio was asked what he thought about the fact that some Republicans consider him the savior of the party and he responded,
"the only savior is our Lord, Jesus Christ." It is a sad commentary on this country, which has been instrumental in achieving the separation of church and state we enjoy in liberal democracies.
"the only savior is our Lord, Jesus Christ." It is a sad commentary on this country, which has been instrumental in achieving the separation of church and state we enjoy in liberal democracies.
4
I think the democrats should make an issue of the "establishment" clause of the constitution and the GOP efforts to undermine this founding principal. Bernie has no need to apologize, and Hillary has no need to discuss her authentic faith-- just talk about a restoration of separation of church and state.
2
I've always wanted to start my own church at home. I'll invite a bunch of my friends over to discuss the doctrine of hmm, let's say football, every Sunday.
Can I then get a tax exemption on my property? Are chicken wings a write-off?
Can I then get a tax exemption on my property? Are chicken wings a write-off?
7
I happen to worship at the alter of the Sunday SF Chronicle, but I don't get a tax write-off for my subscription.
Why do people equate religion with morality. Religion is the experession of morality not the source of it. And far from being a means to spread good, it is more often used as a tool to justify immoral beliefs and actions.
6
You've got it backwards. Religious beliefs are the (claimed) source of an individual's stance on morality. The test is if said believer practices (in public and in private) what they profess publicly to believe.
1
I know of no more blatant in-your-face travesty of the Bill of Rights than the failure to enforce "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion" on that oath-breaking body of liars. It is amazing how persistent this affront to the fundamental theory of constitutional law has been.
10
And don't forget Article 6: "... no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States."
2
Right you are mate! Or how some chief executives and their attorney generals selectively enforce Constutional law!
1
Really Steve, can you point to the law that Congress passed that established a religion?
The nonestablishment clause is absolutely critical to healthy governance and I favor strong prohibitions on elected officials espousing explicit religious doctrines. However, I am loathe to edit the free speech, including religious speech, of anyone who does not hold public office. Sadly, Ms Jaboby's opinion seems too close to a demand for religiously oriented people to sit down and shut up. What is that if not secular bigotry? I don't hear anyone trying to squelch her feelings. She may suffer from self-censorship, but maybe she can work to overcome that.
3
Religious oriented people do need to sit down and shut up. They have had the floor too long. It's someone else's turn!
2
Sadly, your religiously-oriently perspective seems too close to wanting to shut up people who don't share it. I hope you consider this possibility. Many people who haven't heard secular people speak freely aren't used to it and mistake its intent. This may include you.
1
My perspective is not religiously oriented in the least. My comment is anti-censorship. I am a practicing scientist and I am not especially religious, so I hear secular people speak freely all day long. I hope you consider the possibility that reading comprehension is a useful skill.
There is arrogance in those who pointedly proclaim their Christian or any faith for that matter. They seem assured that they know best, have the best and all others are a bit inferior. Some even suggest they will enforce their superiority with a gun. Whereas a true believer merely believes and finds fulfillment.
3
Imagine the peace that would descend upon most of the Earth if all the religious fanatics became atheists. The only wars left to fight would be those for material or economic gain or access to clean water sources.
4
Ms. Jacoby might have pointed out that the phrase "God Bless America" is, of course, the title of a popular song written in 1919 (long after the U.S. Constitution was written) by a Jewish immigrant (yes, Irving Berlin was an immigrant!!), and that it has been exploited for a diverse array of political purposes (in support of the Civil Rights Movement, the Labor movement, and more recently by Christian conservatives as a protest against secular liberalism). I agree with Woody Guthrie's opinion of the song as smug and complacent and greatly prefer the more stirring song Guthrie wrote as a kind of rebuttal, "This Land is Your Land," which implies that Americans have a personal responsibility to take care of the country to which they belong and not leave it up to that mysterious deity known as "God."
1
That this column is in the Times is small gratification as we wait in vain for an intelligent conversation to take place in mainstream America.
That the vast majority of self identifying Christians haven't a clue when it comes to discussing issues central to their faith does not help. And this ignorance goes a long way in perpetuating an unthinking America. Blindly and uncritically mouthing I believe ~ I'm a Christian has somehow become a litmus test for being a good person no matter that few are able to speak coherently about religion or their God.
And all of this supports a vast array of parasites from prosperity preachers to politicians like Ted Cruz, Mike Huckabee, and many others who use religion to pander to low information voters as happens in Iowa every four years.
For a while the Times had a once in a while column concerned with issues of faith but it seems to fallen to the wayside. And then there is the Stone ostensively concerned with philosophical constructs but mostly a forum for people in love with the sound of their own voice uttering spaghetti logic with no practical application in the real world.
To paraphrase Pain's observation; the most formidable weapon against Reason of every kind is Religion.
That the vast majority of self identifying Christians haven't a clue when it comes to discussing issues central to their faith does not help. And this ignorance goes a long way in perpetuating an unthinking America. Blindly and uncritically mouthing I believe ~ I'm a Christian has somehow become a litmus test for being a good person no matter that few are able to speak coherently about religion or their God.
And all of this supports a vast array of parasites from prosperity preachers to politicians like Ted Cruz, Mike Huckabee, and many others who use religion to pander to low information voters as happens in Iowa every four years.
For a while the Times had a once in a while column concerned with issues of faith but it seems to fallen to the wayside. And then there is the Stone ostensively concerned with philosophical constructs but mostly a forum for people in love with the sound of their own voice uttering spaghetti logic with no practical application in the real world.
To paraphrase Pain's observation; the most formidable weapon against Reason of every kind is Religion.
3
The dirtiest trick the Devil ever pulled was organized religion. It has a structure, a hierarchy, a career ladder, and a belief system that, even if followed exactly, withholds the rewards of faith until the hereafter; which means to say, "Not in this life." Organized Religion offers the ambitious, the power hungry and the greedy a route to their heart's desire. It offers opportunity for corruption to those who are willing to capitalize on the fears and anxieties of those who need help and compassion, or those sinners who crave a guaranteed short-cut to Heaven. Why, you can even get people to kill for God, if that's your thing.
Even Jesus called those who prayed publicly, repetitively, and loudly, in order to be seen by all, hypocrites.
Even Jesus called those who prayed publicly, repetitively, and loudly, in order to be seen by all, hypocrites.
8
I say "Amen" to this sensible, rational article! Thank you. I am an an atheist. My ethics are rooted in respect for fellow man, compassion, inclusion. I shudder at the rhetoric spouted by bigots claiming to be soldiers for Christ. Sorry guys but the earth is round and warming, evolution happened and your fervor speaks of pandering. In no previous election cycle have I heard such blatant and insincere clap trap spouted in the name of god. Further increase our prison population in the name of god. Execute a man after 29 years on death row in the name of god. Shame a woman seeking an abortion in the name of god. Fleece a congregation in the name of god - the list is endless. Ethics indeed.
3
The writer seems oblivious to the fact that we're almost there, for dilution is the first step toward extinction: thus we have Mass 1, then Mormon, then Mega, then Mass 2--then on the other side of the Pew we join, Methodist (Hillary), Moses (Bernie), and, according to Republicans, secret Mecca, to which we must add Mars--for in this all gods are agreed, that it is the right and duty for eighteen year-olds to slaughter other eighteen year-olds on the fields of Mars. To paraphrase Lincoln, "both sides slaughtered in the name of the same gods."
2
Of all advanced countries in the world, only in America - a country founded on the premise that there was no religious test whatsoever to be applied to anyone running for office - is it required that politicians wear their religion, but only of the Christian kind, like a shield of honour on their chest.
I guess anyone remembers the uproar about the Ten Commandments kerfuffle of Judge Moore, the Chief Justice of Alabama.
The argument by the faithful and oh so pious was that these commandments apply to all, while ignoring that there are three different versions of them, Jewish, Catholic and Protestant, the two latter ones neatly rewritten in order to get to the number ten.
That same Justice now told all all judges in the not so great state of Alabama not to give out gay marriage licenses.
And yes, the so-called pro-lifers are hardly pro-life. They are far too often the very same that support the death penalty and are militantly pro unfettered gun access.
I guess anyone remembers the uproar about the Ten Commandments kerfuffle of Judge Moore, the Chief Justice of Alabama.
The argument by the faithful and oh so pious was that these commandments apply to all, while ignoring that there are three different versions of them, Jewish, Catholic and Protestant, the two latter ones neatly rewritten in order to get to the number ten.
That same Justice now told all all judges in the not so great state of Alabama not to give out gay marriage licenses.
And yes, the so-called pro-lifers are hardly pro-life. They are far too often the very same that support the death penalty and are militantly pro unfettered gun access.
3
It is a demonstration of an act of faith that these politicians freely use the phrase God bless America. They are free as American citizens to express this feeling just as an atheist or an agnostic are free not to. Perhaps we should be a little quicker to recognize that right of expression for all sides whether they are believers or not. In a similar way, non believers are free not to vote for those who express things that they don't agree with.
1
The song "God Blless America" was written by Irving Berlin a Jew with a
Catholic wife. It was most famously sung by Kate Smith, who became
a Catholic late in life. Those who find love of God objectionable are
in the minority in America. They have the right to be tolerated but not
the right to dominate those of us who are believers.
Personally, I have a doctorate in Mathematics from Princeton. That gives
me no right to lord it over others. I am a Roman Catholic who finds
holes in the argument for Darwinian evolution. The Gospel of St.
John starts with the words, "In the beginning was Logos, and Logos was
with God and Logos was God." Logos, as was pointed out by Pope
Benedict, means Logic. So God is not only Love but Logic as well.
It is clear that some Americans feel they have outgrown a belief
in God. Most of us do not agree and resist the attempts of those
who would remove a discussion of God from education and public
discourse.
Catholic wife. It was most famously sung by Kate Smith, who became
a Catholic late in life. Those who find love of God objectionable are
in the minority in America. They have the right to be tolerated but not
the right to dominate those of us who are believers.
Personally, I have a doctorate in Mathematics from Princeton. That gives
me no right to lord it over others. I am a Roman Catholic who finds
holes in the argument for Darwinian evolution. The Gospel of St.
John starts with the words, "In the beginning was Logos, and Logos was
with God and Logos was God." Logos, as was pointed out by Pope
Benedict, means Logic. So God is not only Love but Logic as well.
It is clear that some Americans feel they have outgrown a belief
in God. Most of us do not agree and resist the attempts of those
who would remove a discussion of God from education and public
discourse.
5
Can you describe this God person/thing to me? "Love" implies that your god is an emotional being, hence an anthropomorphic figure. An omnipotent being certainly doesn't need my "love" or my glorification of him/her/it.
If your god is merciful, why has he/she/it allowed so much misery in this world?
Why did he/she/it create me with the understanding that I might be punished eternally for being found wanting, if he/she/it already knew how I would behave? That's the ultimate in cruelty.
You find fault with Darwin, but then immediately bring up the Bible, which most serious scholars find to be of questional provenance, and full of fictions, contradictions, and superstitions. What specifically in the writings of Darwin do you find to be scientifically deficient?
If your god is merciful, why has he/she/it allowed so much misery in this world?
Why did he/she/it create me with the understanding that I might be punished eternally for being found wanting, if he/she/it already knew how I would behave? That's the ultimate in cruelty.
You find fault with Darwin, but then immediately bring up the Bible, which most serious scholars find to be of questional provenance, and full of fictions, contradictions, and superstitions. What specifically in the writings of Darwin do you find to be scientifically deficient?
2
Hear, hear. I am not surprised that you have a doctorate as your comment is one of the best so far. I am also a Catholic and agree with your message. It is so sad that so many of the Times readers have a disdain for religion and religious people. I do not care what they believe but I do not like it when they ridicule religion and religious folks. It is very important to many of us and it is who we are. We do not go to the mountaintops and shout it out but we do have freedom of religion in the US.
3
I choose to believe that love is the most formidable "weapon" against errors of every kind rather that capital R Reason. Love provides a foundation for reason to rest upon. Without love, what good is reason? What a cold, harsh, world this is when people validate their behavior based on whatever they determine is within reason. Too many people suffer tragedies and celebrations big and small in their everyday lives to keep believing that Reason really provides what they need to be alive.
1
Love feels much better than hatred.
The phrase "god" bless America "coming from a presidential candidate would be unconstitutional in my opinion. Doesn't the constitution speak about the separation of state and religion? Doesn't that mean that the highest governing power in the country can have his/her own beliefs, but should not let those same beliefs govern his politics? Any mention of god should be banned from governing institutions and from the pledge of allegiance. It imposes an inappropriate pressure on those who don't believe in a god, whether they are atheists, agnostics or Buddhists.
1
I don't mind the mentions of "God Bless America". To my mind, it's the same as "Have a nice day", a meaningless, mundane expression devoid of any significance. Just an example of the many impersonal platitudes we use in our communication with one another. Stated robotically, time and again, to close every political speech, it has become nothing more than a sign that, thankfully, the speech is over and we can all go home.
2
All we need do is look at Flint, Michigan for the finest example of how religion does not equate with morals nor ethics. The GOP, the party that has a religious acid test for every candidate, refused to aid the poisoned population of Flint. These are the very people who sell their faith and family values, attend church religiously, go to confession, rid themselves of their sins, ask God for forgiveness, but turn their backs on their fellow humans beings. Religion seems to work for politics, but how to be a better person? Not so much.
5
Reality? None of the candidates are speaking from the cuff, with their own words. They are managed by political handlers who think they know best what the American voters want to hear.
It's time for a few more of the to be like The Donald -- impossible for a handler to handle. While the Great Hairhead is not presidential, he adds honesty like we've not seen since at least the 1950's.
Most of us weren't old enough, or not born yet, to truly remember the colorful people who led, like leaders, but with passionate speaking that wasn't politically correct.
I'm sick of politically correct. It's fake.
It's time for a few more of the to be like The Donald -- impossible for a handler to handle. While the Great Hairhead is not presidential, he adds honesty like we've not seen since at least the 1950's.
Most of us weren't old enough, or not born yet, to truly remember the colorful people who led, like leaders, but with passionate speaking that wasn't politically correct.
I'm sick of politically correct. It's fake.
1
Incredibly interesting this write up is. Also, the comments are really thought provoking & intellectually gratifying. Proud to belong to the NYT readership.
OK here is my take, as a non-believer. God does not exist, plain & simple. More I look into the vastness of the creation, into the enormous variety of plant and animal kingdom, more I become convinced that even if god existed it would be impossible to foster this unimaginably & immeasurably wonderful domain of endless creation from the new species discovered recently under the vastness of the sea to the newly discovered stars and universe above the sky. There is just no "grand design", it´s all about physical and biological evolution of raw matter with or without any meaning. We the humans bring meaning to creation and existence for the sake of cohesiveness of what we call societal order of modern times, only several thousand years old. Having said that, I have to admit that life is not an easy ride...viruses, wars, terrorism, famine, economic downturn etc impose threat to individual humans constantly: a lot of us humans need a "protection" against these evils in the form of religion, god etc. As long as that remains within the boundary of 4 walls, that’s fine. Unfortunately, what the politicians in the US and elsewhere do is that they use the "god bless--" kinda empty slogan to keep the believers happy and win their votes. This in Sartre’s words is "bad faith", that destroys &putrefies the socio-political climate.
OK here is my take, as a non-believer. God does not exist, plain & simple. More I look into the vastness of the creation, into the enormous variety of plant and animal kingdom, more I become convinced that even if god existed it would be impossible to foster this unimaginably & immeasurably wonderful domain of endless creation from the new species discovered recently under the vastness of the sea to the newly discovered stars and universe above the sky. There is just no "grand design", it´s all about physical and biological evolution of raw matter with or without any meaning. We the humans bring meaning to creation and existence for the sake of cohesiveness of what we call societal order of modern times, only several thousand years old. Having said that, I have to admit that life is not an easy ride...viruses, wars, terrorism, famine, economic downturn etc impose threat to individual humans constantly: a lot of us humans need a "protection" against these evils in the form of religion, god etc. As long as that remains within the boundary of 4 walls, that’s fine. Unfortunately, what the politicians in the US and elsewhere do is that they use the "god bless--" kinda empty slogan to keep the believers happy and win their votes. This in Sartre’s words is "bad faith", that destroys &putrefies the socio-political climate.
1
It is not just the electoral Bible thumping. It is the constant tampering with the judicial system that really offends me followed by granting tax exempt status to those religious who do the tampering.
Time to have IRS status tied to not preaching how to vote, no removal of documents from trial (Boston RC and the child rate cases), no tampering with wills and trusts, and no standing outside abortion clinics. Oh and Mitt not be willing to divulge his earnings--was it move than offshore? Was he being facilitated in obtaining tax exemptions by Salt Lake? Is that what he hid?
Time to have IRS status tied to not preaching how to vote, no removal of documents from trial (Boston RC and the child rate cases), no tampering with wills and trusts, and no standing outside abortion clinics. Oh and Mitt not be willing to divulge his earnings--was it move than offshore? Was he being facilitated in obtaining tax exemptions by Salt Lake? Is that what he hid?
2
Religious indoctrination is a form of child abuse. It distorts the minds of young people. As society advances based on science and real knowledge, the kids who have been steeped in mythology -- as if it were fact -- will not be grateful for that kind of misguidance. The craven politicians who promote religious folklore as "truth" are committing a kind of abuse, and doing a disservice to the future.
6
But political indoctrination is hunky-dory? Everyone has a creed or belief system that they live by (or claim to live by), and that is their religion. It doesn't have to be metaphysical to be a "real" religion. Secular humanism or Progressivism is the belief that humans (the source of THE problem) are the ones who are going to fix the problem through reason, logic and science
It is unreasonable and illogical to expect people will be reasonable and logical all the time-eregion ly atheists/humanists who claim they can maintain such objectivity. You're preaching to the choir (no pun intended) about religious hypocrisy in (or out) of politics but I never felt "abused" by my religious upbringing because my parents did their honest best to live by the belief they confessed. What makes you think you have the right to project your own problems with relgion in to everyone else? We all live in glass houses, we all live in sin (sin means "to miss the mark"). You sound just like the people you are criticizing.
It is unreasonable and illogical to expect people will be reasonable and logical all the time-eregion ly atheists/humanists who claim they can maintain such objectivity. You're preaching to the choir (no pun intended) about religious hypocrisy in (or out) of politics but I never felt "abused" by my religious upbringing because my parents did their honest best to live by the belief they confessed. What makes you think you have the right to project your own problems with relgion in to everyone else? We all live in glass houses, we all live in sin (sin means "to miss the mark"). You sound just like the people you are criticizing.
4
"The presumption is that candidates have everything to gain and nothing to lose by continuing their obsequious attitude toward orthodox religion..."
No - not orthodox religion, orthodox Christianity. Endorsing any other orthodoxy would be a death sentence for a politician, just as much as being openly secular would be.
No - not orthodox religion, orthodox Christianity. Endorsing any other orthodoxy would be a death sentence for a politician, just as much as being openly secular would be.
5
"God Bless America" at the end of a political speech is a gesture of modesty. It acknowledges that all claims of leadership are partial and imperfect, and that no ideology restricts the ultimate truth. The future is in God's hands, no matter how ardently we may wish to claim it for ourselves. It is no surprise that bigots and control freaks want to eliminate it. I hope they fail.
6
Being stirred by religious music is fine. Featuring religious music at non-religious events is not fine.
4
I am still stirred when I hear Kate Smith's recorded rendition of"God Bless America" - hand to the heart kind of stirred. Having said that, the "God on our side," and "praise the Lord and Pass the ammunition" stuff only dramatizes the stark contrast of its message to the commandment "thou shalt not kill." Atheists, however, should realize that believers also derive a great deal of positive strength in turning humbly to the God in whom they believe and that it's a strength that not only gives comfort to them but empowers them to help others.
2
Thomas Paine believed in God, and that reason is a gift from the almighty. Battling error has always required a supernatural ability to think, which all humans possess in potential, but very rarely in practice. Exalting the gift over the giver will only fool those who cannot reason well.
Yet, the Author's longing for a politician to end with something other than God Bless America has been recently fulfilled when Ms. Clinton recently ended a speech saying "May the force be with you." What Gravitas.
Most political argument can be boiled down to morals. The foundation of all law is morality, and what morality we choose to nourish and allow to flourish is reflected in the laws, policies, and regulations we want to see passed.
In my opinion Republicans are wrong about campaign finance, and income equality and immigration. Democrats are wrong about the slaughter of our unborn children and patronizing destruction of the cultural cores of minority voices and...immigration ;). But wait, my fellow Americans, don't think so clearly! Pick a side! Don't be a "loser"! We should all pray that God has mercy on us, because we are morally bankrupt and live only for our own pleasure, regardless of political party.
Yet, the Author's longing for a politician to end with something other than God Bless America has been recently fulfilled when Ms. Clinton recently ended a speech saying "May the force be with you." What Gravitas.
Most political argument can be boiled down to morals. The foundation of all law is morality, and what morality we choose to nourish and allow to flourish is reflected in the laws, policies, and regulations we want to see passed.
In my opinion Republicans are wrong about campaign finance, and income equality and immigration. Democrats are wrong about the slaughter of our unborn children and patronizing destruction of the cultural cores of minority voices and...immigration ;). But wait, my fellow Americans, don't think so clearly! Pick a side! Don't be a "loser"! We should all pray that God has mercy on us, because we are morally bankrupt and live only for our own pleasure, regardless of political party.
1
Judging by the number of comments, this has proven thought provoking.
I have a couple of observations:
First, in the Franciscan religious community (named after St. Francis) they have a saying "we preach the Gospel constantly, sometimes we use words."
I think what grates on people is the endless proclamation of belief that is not matched by actions. Nobody proclaims his Christianity louder than death penalty loving carpet bombing advocating Ted Cruz. I would say that one of the most attractive qualities of Pope Francis is his obvious joy in laying hands on people especially babies and the severely handicapped.
Second, in the current Presidential race the one candidate who is least likely to invoke the Almighty, Bernie Sanders, advocates policies that some call very consistent with Catholic teaching on Social Justice. Good for him.
http://www.wednesdayswar.com
I have a couple of observations:
First, in the Franciscan religious community (named after St. Francis) they have a saying "we preach the Gospel constantly, sometimes we use words."
I think what grates on people is the endless proclamation of belief that is not matched by actions. Nobody proclaims his Christianity louder than death penalty loving carpet bombing advocating Ted Cruz. I would say that one of the most attractive qualities of Pope Francis is his obvious joy in laying hands on people especially babies and the severely handicapped.
Second, in the current Presidential race the one candidate who is least likely to invoke the Almighty, Bernie Sanders, advocates policies that some call very consistent with Catholic teaching on Social Justice. Good for him.
http://www.wednesdayswar.com
The closest we have right now to a secular candidate is Sanders. He strikes me as a Humanist if he's anything. I don't know if I'd go so far as to call it a religion (more philosophy than anything), but it's been a great change of pace to see a serious candidate who is not browbeating and Bible-thumping his or her way through debates and national media platforms. I would welcome someone even more secular than Sanders has been, but he's a great first step toward the nature of what American politics *should* be, which is secular, and based entirely on reason, logic and facts.
I yearn for the day when direct questions of a candidate's faith and personal beliefs are met with responses like "I believe in the Constitution", or "I believe in logic, reason and fact. I trust in science and in avenues of life we can demonstrate to be true beyond a reasonable doubt".
I yearn for the day when direct questions of a candidate's faith and personal beliefs are met with responses like "I believe in the Constitution", or "I believe in logic, reason and fact. I trust in science and in avenues of life we can demonstrate to be true beyond a reasonable doubt".
I appreciate this piece and Susan Jacoby's work on behalf of non-theists like myself. However, I am against the blanket use of the term "religion" as if all religions were equal and equally bad. Americans in general, and American atheists in particular, suffer from religious ignorance, treating every system of belief as if it were evangelical, fundamentalist Christianity. In fact, religion is simply a narrative that gives meaning and coherence to one's life. Religion can exists without a supreme deity (Buddhism), without belief in an afterlife (pre-rabbinical Judaism), or without any supernatural aspect at all (Confucianism and to an extent, Taoism). Communism and Nazism, often mentioned as examples of the dangers of atheism, were in fact secular religions, with their own rituals, martyrology and so on. Some religions encourage art (Catholisism), some discourage it (Wahabism). Some help to create a flourishing society, some foment violence. In short, religion is a form of fiction people create to make their lives bearable. And not all fictions are equally good. So before protesting the role of religion in American society, let's first let go of the shibboleth that all religions are the same.
1
36 million people represent about 12 percent of the total number of people in the U.S. I am an agnostic who feels culturally connected to my family's religion, lukewarm Protestant, swinging from Congregational to Unitarian and back depending on what was available. You are not doing your cause any good by attacking people who believe in God. I would guess that Hitchens, for all his bad boy vitriol, did not convince a single person to cease believing in God.
Most people figure out the question of whether or not God exists by themselves. I don't ever remember believing in God, notwithstanding Sunday school in the Congregational church and my hypocrite parents insisting on me saying bedtime prayers.
Most people figure out the question of whether or not God exists by themselves. I don't ever remember believing in God, notwithstanding Sunday school in the Congregational church and my hypocrite parents insisting on me saying bedtime prayers.
I really dislike the use of the term "secular" to mean "non-religious" as in this article. The US is a secular nation (though ostensibly one with many religious citizens). A secular nation has no official, state-enforced-or-endorsed religion. Its citizens are free to be believers in any or no religion. That is what "secular" means. Expressions in favour of "freedom of religion" implicitly endorse "freedom from religion" if one so decides - according to one's own reasoning and conscience. This should be made explicit more often in the US. The truth is: no one is obliged to be a follower of any religion in your country or mine. Thank goodness.
1
The patriotic song that irks me is Bruce Springsteen's favorite, "This land is your land." We're on occupied territory, face it, Bruce. I'm sure that the Native Americans are included, but do they sing it proudly or with deep indignation? This is a hymn to Manifest Destiny. I don't know what to do with it as the daughter of refugees allowed in among the huddled masses because they had sponsors. Re the mixture of religion and politics, isn't that something the Fathers warned against, something Bush II ushered in? The term "faith-based" first entered the vernacular with him, but what a shelf it brought along. "God Bless America' and "one nation under God" indeed. Wasn't the U.S. born during the age of reason? Will it die in an eddy of right to life and creationism and climate denial? We all will, at a time while we're sunbathing in Antarctica. Another thought that is tangential and may go better with an other op-ed, I have for years pictured the U.S., if it lasts for another 100 or so years, as a nation of light brown mestizos of every nation in the world. Perhaps that will happen in Europe too. And with that, European exclusivism will die, white chauvinism, and racism. I still won't know what to do with the burgeoning plutocracy, however. That is a fairly inclusive force.
1
In the same way as I understand the word "mankind" to encompass women, in the same way as I understand "chairman" to include women, I understand "God" to include all beliefs including the belief in nothing. "God bless America" is a shortcut for "I hope for all good things for America". It's a shortcut, like "mankind", that's steeped in our history.
I don't want religion, belief in God or lack of that belief, to ever enter into the government's treatment of people. There should be no government preference for or against any religion or lack of religion. Other than with rote words as we honor our history and traditions with "one nation under God", "God bless America" and "in God we trust", where does our government violate that? Okay, maybe in letting some corporations be exempt from laws affecting everyone else (like the PPACA and contraception) -- but that's not what this author is writing about. She's writing about those simple words, said by many but hardly given a thought by most. Do I think our country would be irretrievably damaged if we wiped all reference to God out of public documents? Well, no. But there's so much more we should concern ourself with that has tangible benefit to people -- people who don't have hours to write a column about being ticked off at references to God or consider why people don't join groups to oppose such references. I guess people have to make a living. My mistake was reading this.
I don't want religion, belief in God or lack of that belief, to ever enter into the government's treatment of people. There should be no government preference for or against any religion or lack of religion. Other than with rote words as we honor our history and traditions with "one nation under God", "God bless America" and "in God we trust", where does our government violate that? Okay, maybe in letting some corporations be exempt from laws affecting everyone else (like the PPACA and contraception) -- but that's not what this author is writing about. She's writing about those simple words, said by many but hardly given a thought by most. Do I think our country would be irretrievably damaged if we wiped all reference to God out of public documents? Well, no. But there's so much more we should concern ourself with that has tangible benefit to people -- people who don't have hours to write a column about being ticked off at references to God or consider why people don't join groups to oppose such references. I guess people have to make a living. My mistake was reading this.
2
Revisionist evangelicals will tell you that this country was founded on religion, not having a clue that our founding fathers were largely children of the Enlightenment…some of whom were atheists, many were deists aware of the fact that they believed in something but, not being able to define it, were content with creating a government that recognized the rights of all and yes, some were Christian, but virtually all agreed on the full separation of church and state. Common Sense, Thomas Paine, whose seminal pamphlet galvanized the colonies into committing a popularly complicit act of revolution against the British Empire was an avowed atheist. Today's political discourse could at times be mistaken for a religious tent revival…so completely at odd with our founders intentions. The Age of Reason we are not.
3
I have couple of observations:
First, in the Franciscan Religious Order (named after St. Francis) they have a saying "we preach the Gospel constantly, sometimes we use words." I think what grates on many people is the constant invocation of the Deity and the absence of good works that any self-respecting deity would approve of.
Second, in the politics of today, nobody wraps himself in his Christianity more that death penalty carpet bombing Ted Cruz.
Third, the candidate in the race least likely to invoke the Almighty is Bernie Sanders. The policies he advocates are very closely aligned with Catholic teaching on Social Justice. I think Bernie Sanders and Pope Francis would find themselves in agreement on more subjects than any other candidate.
http://www.wednesdayswars.com
First, in the Franciscan Religious Order (named after St. Francis) they have a saying "we preach the Gospel constantly, sometimes we use words." I think what grates on many people is the constant invocation of the Deity and the absence of good works that any self-respecting deity would approve of.
Second, in the politics of today, nobody wraps himself in his Christianity more that death penalty carpet bombing Ted Cruz.
Third, the candidate in the race least likely to invoke the Almighty is Bernie Sanders. The policies he advocates are very closely aligned with Catholic teaching on Social Justice. I think Bernie Sanders and Pope Francis would find themselves in agreement on more subjects than any other candidate.
http://www.wednesdayswars.com
3
"Just once in my life, I would like the chance to vote for a presidential candidate who ends his or her appeals with Thomas Paine’s observation that 'the most formidable weapon against errors of every kind is Reason.'”
So says the author of this excellent column, and I share his sentiment. I also share his frustration.
"Reason" - serious thought - requires time and trouble. It might also require civil conversation and - Gasp! - reading. I see precious little willingness for these formerly essential skills in our society today. I myself am guilty of this, having grown tired of civil (At least on my part.) discussions with evangelical Americans, only to be subjected to homilies about Jesus and/or the coming Rapture that were usually delivered with an overtone of "I'll be saved and you're going to hell".
We live in an age of communication by 140 characters. Or is it 160? We have more information available to us than ever before, but our society as a whole remains stubbornly and willfully uninformed.
And, while the author and I are great fans of Thomas Paine, it's a good bet that most of today's Americans don't even know who he was.
So says the author of this excellent column, and I share his sentiment. I also share his frustration.
"Reason" - serious thought - requires time and trouble. It might also require civil conversation and - Gasp! - reading. I see precious little willingness for these formerly essential skills in our society today. I myself am guilty of this, having grown tired of civil (At least on my part.) discussions with evangelical Americans, only to be subjected to homilies about Jesus and/or the coming Rapture that were usually delivered with an overtone of "I'll be saved and you're going to hell".
We live in an age of communication by 140 characters. Or is it 160? We have more information available to us than ever before, but our society as a whole remains stubbornly and willfully uninformed.
And, while the author and I are great fans of Thomas Paine, it's a good bet that most of today's Americans don't even know who he was.
1
The main reason why belief in god is a litmus test for suitability to be president is that many people, even non-fundamentalists, think that morality depends upon a divine law-giver. Though history clearly demonstrates that moral and immoral conduct have little correlation with religious belief, the "religion = good person" meme remains powerful in American culture. Avowed atheism may be the greatest barrier to political success.
As a political/religious generalization, based on observations over time and at various places (in the US), secularists are comfortable with the principle of separation of church and state, whereas many of faith (e.g. American South) are inclined to see it as an imposition on "freedom of religion".
Also, in the US secularists are accustomed, for example, to voting for a politician of faith (e.g. President Carter), but the bulk of our electorate, and especially Republicans, would refuse to vote for an atheist (see the polls).
Thus, if one wishes to assess religion in the context of democracy, it is the religious community that has the greatest distance to travel. That is one implication of Ms Jacoby's somewhat metaphorical piece, and why it bothers some here.
Also, in the US secularists are accustomed, for example, to voting for a politician of faith (e.g. President Carter), but the bulk of our electorate, and especially Republicans, would refuse to vote for an atheist (see the polls).
Thus, if one wishes to assess religion in the context of democracy, it is the religious community that has the greatest distance to travel. That is one implication of Ms Jacoby's somewhat metaphorical piece, and why it bothers some here.
I find it quite annoying that, for as long as I can remember, every president ends every speech with "and may god bless America." About four times a year, I am accosted by someone who asks me if I've heard "the good news" to which I always reply "Yes, nuclear war has been averted again." I don't believe in fairy tales, and I am offended by being bombarded by language that implies that I'm a "second class" citizen (and that I'm ethically deficient) because of my atheistic views. In my opinion, the most effective individual advocating the right to avoid religious clap-trap was the atheist Madelyn Murray O'Hair who has assassinated in 1995 - too bad no one has stepped up to take her place.
1
It's hard for one person to understand the beliefs of others in things which don't exist in our physical world.
Deities are real only in the minds of their beholders. Actual existence should provide some consistency of perception of the deity, but everyone's idea of "god" is different, based upon their experiences.
I've heard that coming to "know god" is difficult. Shouldn't developing an a oneness with the most powerful and loving thing in the universe be easy?
We created god to explain stuff we can't. Good thing god's infinite because we keep figuring stuff out.
Necessary, but not sufficient, to get the religious vote is an acknowledgement and some accommodation of their imaginings.
The mantra of modern christianity seems to have become "god is good so I don't have to be."
Deities are real only in the minds of their beholders. Actual existence should provide some consistency of perception of the deity, but everyone's idea of "god" is different, based upon their experiences.
I've heard that coming to "know god" is difficult. Shouldn't developing an a oneness with the most powerful and loving thing in the universe be easy?
We created god to explain stuff we can't. Good thing god's infinite because we keep figuring stuff out.
Necessary, but not sufficient, to get the religious vote is an acknowledgement and some accommodation of their imaginings.
The mantra of modern christianity seems to have become "god is good so I don't have to be."
Yes Yes Yes. When my children went to school I asked them only to listen carefully before repeating mantras such as the pledge of allegiance. As it did to my ears, it jangled to theirs, and they never repeated it. We start early with the religious indoctrination, chanted daily so as to seem innocuous. It should seem, in this time, as a rather curious idiosyncrasy for people to believe in god. Curious, not good or bad, plain curious.
2
Existence is a mystery but as Voltaire said: "Doubt is an uncomfortable condition but certainty is a ridiculous one". Several times in history men have won esteem and power for themselves by telling "Big Lies" about our origins and fate with conviction. Such is how religions were often formed and consolidated in my opinion.
A freethinker might entertain thoughts of a Creator who formed the initial universe for a reason. As I understand it many of the US's "Founding Fathers" had this character. They were Deists. I used to hold similar beliefs. Most people who are followers of the Abrahamic religions however, believe in a God that exists within the Universe and does - or could - involve itself in human affairs. They are Theists.
I respect the finitude and fallibility of those "unfortunately" raised in and accepting of these traditions - but frankly - I consider belief in an immanent God on a par with believing "The Shire" of "The Lord of the Rings" is a real place. Moreover if such a God did exist: I'd consider its self-evident non-involvement in human affairs (such as not revealing to all explicitly that it exists and war is wrong - for instance) as evidence of it being a malevolent rather than a benevolent force. Thus: I do not consider the belief in an immanent God to be respectable and think it should be contested rather than tolerated.
I think the lowering level of religious identification and fervour is one of the few good things happening in the US right now.
A freethinker might entertain thoughts of a Creator who formed the initial universe for a reason. As I understand it many of the US's "Founding Fathers" had this character. They were Deists. I used to hold similar beliefs. Most people who are followers of the Abrahamic religions however, believe in a God that exists within the Universe and does - or could - involve itself in human affairs. They are Theists.
I respect the finitude and fallibility of those "unfortunately" raised in and accepting of these traditions - but frankly - I consider belief in an immanent God on a par with believing "The Shire" of "The Lord of the Rings" is a real place. Moreover if such a God did exist: I'd consider its self-evident non-involvement in human affairs (such as not revealing to all explicitly that it exists and war is wrong - for instance) as evidence of it being a malevolent rather than a benevolent force. Thus: I do not consider the belief in an immanent God to be respectable and think it should be contested rather than tolerated.
I think the lowering level of religious identification and fervour is one of the few good things happening in the US right now.
3
Shortly after my husband was diagnosed with cancer, and while the oncologists were still deciding what kind of treatment would be the best from him, a golf partner of ours riding with me in my cart asked me a question.
The question was if my husband believed in heaven. I almost fell out of the cart, but answered that that question was obviously a bit premature while he just climbed to a hill to the green.
As a naturalized citizen from 'godless, socialist' Europe, I am sick and tired of so-called normal people inserting their religious beliefs into conversations, and all the politicians pandering for the support of the faithful.
The question was if my husband believed in heaven. I almost fell out of the cart, but answered that that question was obviously a bit premature while he just climbed to a hill to the green.
As a naturalized citizen from 'godless, socialist' Europe, I am sick and tired of so-called normal people inserting their religious beliefs into conversations, and all the politicians pandering for the support of the faithful.
1
I'm a non-religious person who went through a phase where I had to insert the significance of my non-religion into conversations. Looking back I think it was more or less a natural reaction against the suppression of politics and religion as topics to discuss among company, even loved ones, or I suppose especially loved ones (is this an American thing, I still wonder?) I found it frustrating, and still do actually, how the denial of evolution, one of the most amazing things in the world, had a direct correlation with religious belief - at least here in the states.
Lately I've grown somewhat tired of bringing up religion, probably because I've "heard it all" at this point. I think this has to do with the fact that I no longer spend as much time with my fellow millennials now that I graduated and have a job. Youth is when your mind is more open and can change quickly. As people get older their views tend to solidify - maybe that's why religion is deemed a taboo topic among adults. It's a pointless endeavor as Jonathan Swift said, to reason someone out of something they weren't reasoned into. On the contrary, however, many non-believers are willing to be proven anything whether they are adult or not. Unchanging views can be dangerous.
There is common ground. Pope Francis has done a great example being a moral leader. Much of what he says about environmental decay and exploitation of human begins is a great starting point for believers and non-believers to unite under a cause.
Lately I've grown somewhat tired of bringing up religion, probably because I've "heard it all" at this point. I think this has to do with the fact that I no longer spend as much time with my fellow millennials now that I graduated and have a job. Youth is when your mind is more open and can change quickly. As people get older their views tend to solidify - maybe that's why religion is deemed a taboo topic among adults. It's a pointless endeavor as Jonathan Swift said, to reason someone out of something they weren't reasoned into. On the contrary, however, many non-believers are willing to be proven anything whether they are adult or not. Unchanging views can be dangerous.
There is common ground. Pope Francis has done a great example being a moral leader. Much of what he says about environmental decay and exploitation of human begins is a great starting point for believers and non-believers to unite under a cause.
33
So Pope Francis has done a great example being a moral leader?
He was just recently in Africa, preaching to desperately poor women that using any form of birth control was an abomination and a sin.
Perhaps people have a different definition of 'moral' than I do.
He was just recently in Africa, preaching to desperately poor women that using any form of birth control was an abomination and a sin.
Perhaps people have a different definition of 'moral' than I do.
2
That surprises me. I recall Pope Francis once making a comment that seemed pro-contraception, something along the lines of "people need not breed like rabbits." Maybe he was referring to other ways to plan parenthood. Regardless, this captures an area where you (and I, for the record) disagree with Pope Francis, but this does not negate the man's stances on climate change, greed, helping the poor, etc.
The author believes that a political person must forfeit his or her own personal beliefs to make the author happy? To each his own. If you want a secular representative, then elect one. Otherwise, recognise the tyranny of demanding that one person has the right to dictate the belief systems of another. I cringe when Obama (and others) repeatedly brings up his Christian faith, but would never state that he is wrong to hold his beliefs or utter statements of his faith.
4
I'm also sick of hearing palpably corrupt hucksters like Pat Robertson and Al Sharpton referred to as "Reverend". Revered by whom? And for what?
6
Pat Robertson actually attended seminary and was officially ordained by the Southern Baptists, although right now he's just in his own loony personal theological space. Al Sharpton never attended seminary, as far as I can tell but was informally "ordained" by another Pentecostal.
Many of the most notorious figures, such as Fred Phelps, have never been vetted by any religious denomination. They just started calling themselves "Reverend."
The Catholic and Orthodox churches, and the mainline and many evangelical Protestant denominations require potential clergy to go through long periods of evaluation and training before ordination.
Many of the most notorious figures, such as Fred Phelps, have never been vetted by any religious denomination. They just started calling themselves "Reverend."
The Catholic and Orthodox churches, and the mainline and many evangelical Protestant denominations require potential clergy to go through long periods of evaluation and training before ordination.
1
Couldn't agree more with Jacoby's article.
6
What is it about Separation of Church & State that these guys do not understand? Here in México it is much clearer as the historic avarice and acquisitiveness of the Catholic Church is right in front view 24/7/365 & the people tend to undermine the fundy missionaries by saying "Sure!" to their money and "eh" to the ideas.
1
I'm not sure you fully understand the first amendment, perhaps you could read it?
A biblical precedent for pretending to be like the people you are trying to convince is in Romans 3:7 and 1Corinth. 9:20, where Paul admits to lying, in order to further the cause, and admits to pretending to be what he is not, in order to win converts (con man!)
3
Can't go to church too often, eh? Goin' to church don't make you a Christian, any more'n standin' in the garage gonna turn you into a car.
19
"God bless America" is just another of the many things politicians say to get votes that they don't really believe. How many Democrats really believe that President Obama is all that religious? I'm sure he's not a Muslim, and I would guess that he's only nominally a Christian.
3
In "The Audacity of Hope", Mr. Obama wrote that he had been an atheist until Jeremiah Wright persuaded him that religion is an essential political tool.
Let me just point out that there are Christians who are not evangelicals and not Catholics. Don't hear about them much, I know, but they exist, and many of them are not happy to see religion and politics walking hand-in-hand so often, either.
11
Most "Americans" have either never taken Poli-Sci 101 or have developed a convenient case of amnesia about what they learned. Anyone who "believes" (the word itself denotes personal deception) that the founders of this country were in Christian solidarity, or even all believed (there's that word again) in a god had better sign up for a night course in their local evening community-ed repertoire and learn the reality. The Freedom 'of' religion clause was as much about freedom FROM religion. Of course, this is conveniently lost in the intellectual regression and all-out dumbing down of the American mind, in favor of the adolescent comfort of Santa Clause, Leave it to Beaver, and Jesus.
Further, anyone who equates a higher morality based on religious mythology had, again, better pick up a world history book...
Further, anyone who equates a higher morality based on religious mythology had, again, better pick up a world history book...
11
Ho-hum. Just another attempt to trot out the tired, impotent god of Reason, neo-Englightnent style. Nothing new here.
Securalism is enshrined as a principle in our government; don't fault the public or its politicians for being culturally Christian. If you want a politician who stumps for atheism and gives full-throated support for the absurdity of religion, run yourself.
Securalism is enshrined as a principle in our government; don't fault the public or its politicians for being culturally Christian. If you want a politician who stumps for atheism and gives full-throated support for the absurdity of religion, run yourself.
4
Why do some religious people always equate a lack of belief in gods and the supernatural as "worshipping" reason?
Atheism is not worship. A supernatural entity was not replaced by another entity, in the minds of non-believers.
Atheism is not worship. A supernatural entity was not replaced by another entity, in the minds of non-believers.
4
I cannot stand any of our politicians who end their speeches - while campaigning or while in office - with God Bless the United States of America - in an forced, yelling voice. And then they often end with - the greatest nation the world has ever seen. yeah, right....
4
As I understand it, "God Bless America" is the title of song written by a Jewish-American song writer, Israel Isidore Baline, later known as Irvibng Berlin, in 1918. His more famous composition is "Alexander's Ragtime Band." I suspect that Baline wrote these, not based on the experiences of his life but what he felt the market needed, I imagine him sounding like Bernie Sanders and leaving his own religious beliefs private. The added value of reciting "God Bless America" for years was only something that people like Kate Smith could utilize as very loud singers. I hope that the fact that it became a concluding line and meaningless line for politicians is making Irving chuckle from his perch in heaven - and, finally, to all of my fellow readers: Have a nice day -- and may your God bless America or whomever She so chooses.
1
"God" is invoked on the Right these days and, to abuse a metaphor: God knows we need help these days (on the Right)
THAT said, I recall not too long ago the REVEREND Dr Martin Luther King Jr doing political activism from faith-based communities or constituencies under the banner of the Southern CHRISTIAN Leadership Conference but do not recall equivalent calumniation, I must have missed the memo
So as is usual, when God Is On Our Side, God is OK
THAT said, I recall not too long ago the REVEREND Dr Martin Luther King Jr doing political activism from faith-based communities or constituencies under the banner of the Southern CHRISTIAN Leadership Conference but do not recall equivalent calumniation, I must have missed the memo
So as is usual, when God Is On Our Side, God is OK
2
I believe in a creator and thank it every day for the gift of human life. That is spirituality. I do not endorse organized religion that tries to suppress humans. Many people go to church because they love the community even though they do not share all the beliefs shouted from the pulpit. There is nothing wrong with that but they must also demand that religion be kept in homes and places of worship in America - and around the world - if we are ever to have actual peaceful living.
6
The problem with pieces like this is that they are thinly disguised attempts
to BAN religion.
I don't believe in the omnipresent God of the usual religions, and
don't worship, but I can't rule out God the creator because it does
not break any proven laws of physics.
But I find in general that people who are practicing mainstream Christians
or Jews tend to be nicer people than the sort of people who write articles in the opinion pages of the New Your Times. They seem to be a very nasty sort.
I think that's a very telling bottom line.
to BAN religion.
I don't believe in the omnipresent God of the usual religions, and
don't worship, but I can't rule out God the creator because it does
not break any proven laws of physics.
But I find in general that people who are practicing mainstream Christians
or Jews tend to be nicer people than the sort of people who write articles in the opinion pages of the New Your Times. They seem to be a very nasty sort.
I think that's a very telling bottom line.
7
It is the very judgmental nature of those that think practicing religionists are more moral than the rest, that goes to the very heart of the problem.
4
Old guard Atheists have dropped the ball especially when it comes to LBGQT community. The way women and women's rights advocates have been treated by the patriarchal atheist establishment is disgraceful. Time to tear down the calcified male dominated hierarchy and embrace a big tent approach that advocates for all social, gender and equality issues. Good news is there's a fast growing movement of progressives rising up and embracing a diversified "Atheism Plus" where everyone is empowered and welcomed to the table.
2
There is a fatal flaw in this lefty argument. People who "call themselves nothing in particular" are not necessarily atheists nor agnostics (which are clear belief systems, and my opinion, a kind of religion anyways).
They may simply be people who fell away from a church due to moving or marriage, or dislike of the new preacher. Or who resent tithing or paying into a collection basket (or are too broke). Or who feel shame for something like remarrying after divorce or birth control (Catholics). The biggest group, I strongly suspect, simply do not want to get up early on Sundays, and waste a perfectly good day that could be spent sleeping late, relaxing, doing chores or hey! watching football (*another type of religion).
If you REALLY TALK to such people (I have; the author not so much), they DO believe in lots of religious stuff. They believe that "they are spiritual". They believe in magic, angels, ghosts, super-heroes and many supernatural events. They believe in space aliens and area 51 and alien/human hybrids and ancient astronauts. They believe in superstition, and that if you wish for things hard enough....they will happen! A large number still believe in Jesus, and most aspects of Christianity, but are adamant they will not curtail their sex lives to conform to Christian traditional morality.
In short: they are a religious flock, in search of a new religion. It happened 2000 years ago, when the old Roman gods were dismissed, in favor of Christianity.
They may simply be people who fell away from a church due to moving or marriage, or dislike of the new preacher. Or who resent tithing or paying into a collection basket (or are too broke). Or who feel shame for something like remarrying after divorce or birth control (Catholics). The biggest group, I strongly suspect, simply do not want to get up early on Sundays, and waste a perfectly good day that could be spent sleeping late, relaxing, doing chores or hey! watching football (*another type of religion).
If you REALLY TALK to such people (I have; the author not so much), they DO believe in lots of religious stuff. They believe that "they are spiritual". They believe in magic, angels, ghosts, super-heroes and many supernatural events. They believe in space aliens and area 51 and alien/human hybrids and ancient astronauts. They believe in superstition, and that if you wish for things hard enough....they will happen! A large number still believe in Jesus, and most aspects of Christianity, but are adamant they will not curtail their sex lives to conform to Christian traditional morality.
In short: they are a religious flock, in search of a new religion. It happened 2000 years ago, when the old Roman gods were dismissed, in favor of Christianity.
3
Kind of a loopy comment: people that say they are not religious but are spiritual and may believe in angels, aliens, ghosts and the like. Sounds like some version of the old plea for ignorance: since science doesn't know everything god or some faith system must exist.
1
Atheists see no merit to believing anything that cannot be tested, checked or substantiated in some way.
4
Simply....Thank You for the Conversation on the Separation of :
Church. And. State.
Church. And. State.
10
Why should God Bless a nation that has thrown Him out to pursue Sin at any cost?
4
I sorry you have to live in our demon haunted evil nation. It must be frightening to be surrounded by sinners and apostates. Unfortunately we are not allowed to burn witches and sinners anymore to excise their evils and immorality. Perhaps you should join up with your jihadi brothers in their quest to cleanse the world of the great satan and establish the true faith.
4
Bravo! I'm tired of hearing: Christian this, Christian that..................I don't consider it anything special.
9
Can you imagine Ike or Jack Kennedy ending every speech with the now mandatory closing words?
8
Vincent, I am reasonably sure that many can recall Ike and JFK including in public addresses references to God and religion.
For example, in his 1957 State of the Union address, Ike said to Congress and the nation at large: "The State of the Union, at the opening of the 85th Congress continues to vindicate the wisdom of the principles on which this Republic is rounded. Proclaimed in the Constitution of the Nation and in many of our historic documents, and rounded in devout religious convictions…"
And Ike closed his 1959 SOU address by saying :" If we make ourselves worthy of America's ideals, if we do not forget that our nation was founded on the premise that all men are creatures of God's making, the world will come to know that it is free men who carry forward the true promise of human progress and dignity."
I know that by now you must be shocked. But wait... Check JFK's three SOU messages. He closed them this way:
1961: (Quoting FDR) "We pray that we may be worthy of the unlimited opportunities that God has given us.’"
1962: "... may God watch over the United States of America.'
1963: "“ With thanks to Almighty God for seeing us through a perilous passage, we ask His help anew in guiding the "Good Ship Union."
I guess FDR, Ike and JFK would be too "old school" for Ms. Jacoby, and many other NYT devotees as well. But lots of us can live with that...
For example, in his 1957 State of the Union address, Ike said to Congress and the nation at large: "The State of the Union, at the opening of the 85th Congress continues to vindicate the wisdom of the principles on which this Republic is rounded. Proclaimed in the Constitution of the Nation and in many of our historic documents, and rounded in devout religious convictions…"
And Ike closed his 1959 SOU address by saying :" If we make ourselves worthy of America's ideals, if we do not forget that our nation was founded on the premise that all men are creatures of God's making, the world will come to know that it is free men who carry forward the true promise of human progress and dignity."
I know that by now you must be shocked. But wait... Check JFK's three SOU messages. He closed them this way:
1961: (Quoting FDR) "We pray that we may be worthy of the unlimited opportunities that God has given us.’"
1962: "... may God watch over the United States of America.'
1963: "“ With thanks to Almighty God for seeing us through a perilous passage, we ask His help anew in guiding the "Good Ship Union."
I guess FDR, Ike and JFK would be too "old school" for Ms. Jacoby, and many other NYT devotees as well. But lots of us can live with that...
Thank you Susan for a wonderful article. I think you left out millions of Americans that are staunch supporters of the separation of Church & State & object to any religious symbol including the word God in any Tax Payer funded public institution, that includes our currency, & includes the Christmas Tree on the White House Lawn, as well as, any religious symbol on public property.Most of all religion does not belong in Public Schools.
I consider myself Jewish, but I don't take the scriptures literally, & have read the New Testament & the Koran, & I find no difference in any of them.They are all based on hear say & superstition.They serve no purpose other then to divide people, and cause hatred.In spite of my intellectual feelings,I still attend services & keep my Jewish culture, & I pray to a God who has no resemblance to the God of in any of the scriptures.I support candidates who do not carry their religion on their sleeve.or use religion to pander for religious votes.I consider myself a supporter of those that call themselves secular.
I consider myself Jewish, but I don't take the scriptures literally, & have read the New Testament & the Koran, & I find no difference in any of them.They are all based on hear say & superstition.They serve no purpose other then to divide people, and cause hatred.In spite of my intellectual feelings,I still attend services & keep my Jewish culture, & I pray to a God who has no resemblance to the God of in any of the scriptures.I support candidates who do not carry their religion on their sleeve.or use religion to pander for religious votes.I consider myself a supporter of those that call themselves secular.
3
Religion is a tool of the war machine haunting us all throughout history, nothing more.
13
Amen.
5
We are not really 'predominately' a Christian nation. When you add the nones and professed non Christians to the "Christians" who think there is more than one path to heaven, a rejection of the Christian kerygma sufficient to disqualify them as Christians, you find that "authentic" Christians are a minority here.
4
Saying you have God on your side means there are sides. That's the root cause of the mess that humankind has made of this glorious planet that we all share.
6
Oh, for God's sakes.
3
Our Constitution of the United States of America guarantees SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE which means that people are free to worship as they wish, or not worship, without government intrusion AND religious organizations may not influence OUR politics. That is the bedrock of true democracy in America. The ALEC/Koch brothers/Wall Street/u.s. chamber of commerce/radical religious right/nra/major media corporate conglomerate chose to ignore that for the last 40+ years as they took over OUR governments at all levels. They are trying to use religion to keep average Americans suppressed. WE must DEMAND that OUR CONSTITUTION be upheld and the lazy press must stop making everything in America - and the world- about religion. Attention religious leaders: Keep your religion in homes and places of worship and leave the rest of us alone or lose tax-free status.
9
Congress literally has no constitutional power to enact any law respecting any article of faith. Religionists have cheated us of the very principle of constitutionally-limited government in their drive to get official respect for their fantasies.
3
The phrase "Separation of Church and State" IS NOT in the constitution. It is in a letter from Thomas Jefferson to Baptists (yes, Baptists) from Danbury, CT who were being persecuted by the establishment Congregational Church.
1
When will people get over religion?
11
Logic trap: most religions claim that theirs is the One True (Way, God, etc). They can't all be right! I choose logic and reason instead.
11
So according to one poll, you're up to maybe ten percent (of which militant atheists probably make up far less than half), and this "magnitude" entitles you to something? It doesn't.
1
We could use a lot more politicians who actually show through word and deed as Bernie Sanders does, that they are guided by this rule, "do unto others as you would have others do unto you." Those who most loudly pronounce their religious belief, seem to follow this rule least, in my opinion.
11
Thank you Susan Jacoby - I am a Presbyterian pastor and I too am sick and tired of "God Bless America." You have covered the grand scale of why and how this statement 'blesses' all manner of damaging ideology and false patriotism. When I saw the title, I immediately reacted as a baseball fan. I am sick and tired of the now ubiquitous practice of singing "God Bless America" during the 7th inning stretch.
13
Oh, yes, yes, yes! I'm so tired of the militarization of sports!
1
Indeed, I feel much the same as Jacoby. I'm sick and tired of the use of the name "God" in American politics. It is the rankest of hypocrisy; especially when juxtaposing their words against their actions.
Indeed, to get right to the heart of this....there is an edict in the Bible, and let me paraphrase. You shall not misuse; you shall not take, the name of God in vain. In effect you should not use the name in common speech, be it as admonishment to self (cursing), asking for some sort of self-serving dispensation from on high (prayer), and most certain not in politics.
Do we "get" this idea as a society? Nope. Not at all. We even go so far as to slap the name on the coin of the realm. The hypocrisy in all that we do in the name of a creator is enshrined by our use of that very name (in vain). So...given this....if there is a God then I hope the creator has sensibilities along the lines thought by Voltaire's "God is a comedian...." In other words; I hope the creator has a sense of humor, because if in said shoes I'd be juuust a bit cranky about it.
John~
American Net'Zen
Indeed, to get right to the heart of this....there is an edict in the Bible, and let me paraphrase. You shall not misuse; you shall not take, the name of God in vain. In effect you should not use the name in common speech, be it as admonishment to self (cursing), asking for some sort of self-serving dispensation from on high (prayer), and most certain not in politics.
Do we "get" this idea as a society? Nope. Not at all. We even go so far as to slap the name on the coin of the realm. The hypocrisy in all that we do in the name of a creator is enshrined by our use of that very name (in vain). So...given this....if there is a God then I hope the creator has sensibilities along the lines thought by Voltaire's "God is a comedian...." In other words; I hope the creator has a sense of humor, because if in said shoes I'd be juuust a bit cranky about it.
John~
American Net'Zen
5
If I concede the point and imagine that this power broker deity exists, I have to imagine his response to God Bless America. "Well, let's see. I've blessed you with the richest soil, plentiful water, perfectly crafted harbors, rivers in all the right places, a relatively temperate climate, every kind of mineral and metal, vast forest lands, gorgeous vistas, plenty of room to spread out, ... and you're asking for more blessings? The richest, luckiest, most greedy people on earth would like some more? PULEEEZE.
16
A journalistic piece that gets published in the NYT with the title "Sick and Tired of 'God Bless America' (followed by hundreds of agreeable comments) demonstrates that we've come a long way towards recognizing and accepting that not everyone is religious nor believes in a God.
15
Baseball season will begin in less than in less than 2 months,along with 7th inning stretch during which fans forced to endure not just listening to but singing,while standing,"God Bless America." It's not just being non religious that makes cringe; as "music " it's an assault on the ears,which is no surprise given that it was written during the depths of McCarthyism.So,in the spirit of true religious and non religious liberty,when I'm at the ballgame I'm going to rremain sitting during the song,standing only to sing "Take Me Out To The Ballgame."
11
Thankfully the local teams (Giants, A's) do not play God Bless America every game. Just another downside of being a Yankees fan.
2
In my youth everyone sang "Take Me Out To The Ballgame." And the Republic still stands.
2
The Yankees do this, not the Mets. Happy I am a Mets fan.
1
Amen.
5
Thank you for this great article. I wish any of the candidates would just he say he believes in peace & happiness for all.
I would never vote for a candidate who did not believe in Evolution - hope a lot of people won't as well!!
I would never vote for a candidate who did not believe in Evolution - hope a lot of people won't as well!!
11
Having flown in from Europe for a meeting, I was in Washington DC on Septermber 11th, 2001. I wanted to share the shock and mourning with Americans, but I did not want to sing "God Bless America." My solution? The Florida Ave Friends (Quaker) Meeting. Quiet, reverent mourning. No God Bless America.
12
It is nice to hear someone else express so well what I've been feeling as this campaign season gets into high gear. Thank you Susan Jacoby!
9
Amen!!!
2
Here's your answer Mr. Sanders: "I don't know if there is a god but I conduct myself as if there were one".
15
@jlros,
That response implies that non-believers lack a moral compass and/or actions are based on a fear of god's wrath.
That response implies that non-believers lack a moral compass and/or actions are based on a fear of god's wrath.
jlros - even us godless heathens can get behind that statement, assuming of course that it's a loving and not a mean-spirited deity. Alas, therein lies the problem. The Bible tells us slavery is ok. Where's the "do unto others...." logic in that?
Amen, sister.
6
I believe Human Beings are capable of believing just about anything.
5
Thank you for putting voice to my feelings.
3
A line from Woody Allen's "Hannah and Her Sisters:"
"Third grade con men telling the poor suckers that watch them that they speak with Jesus, and to please send in money. Money, money, money! If Jesus came back and saw what's going on in his name, he'd never stop throwing up."
"Third grade con men telling the poor suckers that watch them that they speak with Jesus, and to please send in money. Money, money, money! If Jesus came back and saw what's going on in his name, he'd never stop throwing up."
11
"Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful." - Lucius Annaeus Seneca (4 BCE - 65 CE)
17
Without religion, England's convicts never would have been sent from the hulks in the Thames to the antipodes to be born again as Australians. Don't look a gift horse in the mouth. Read "The Fatal Shore" for more on this.
I'm not sure but I think you are saying I should be religious because religion had something to do with people being sent from the UK as convicts to my homeland. That would not be the case even if it were true. Anyway I am not descended from people who were sent here as convicts. My mother's side of the family came here from the UK as free settlers in the 1880's. My father's side came here in the early 1940's from the UK after escaping Nazi Europe. The Gestapo were after my grandfather for assisting a British agent.
"Secular values?" Hmmm. What are those? And I mean those which were not co-oped from religion and simply re-stated as something allegedly "new."
6
Secular values are those values that enable an individual to lead a positive life in society with other humans. Such values as the golden rule derive from common sense, not religion. Observation of what behaviors enable people to thrive in society yields the value that those who seek not to harm others, nay even to assist others, lead productive and satisfying lives. That is all we know and all we need to know.
It's the other way around. The best of religious values were originally taken from surrounding philosophies in the ancient world. Not that this is a bad thing.
1
Joe,
Before the concept of religion existed people learned the benefits of working together toward mutual goals. You could say their morals "evolved".
Before the concept of religion existed people learned the benefits of working together toward mutual goals. You could say their morals "evolved".
2
I prefer Woody Guthrie's answer to Irving Berlin's song, thank you.
5
Amen
Consider Israel. In this overtly Jewish state, it is common and unremarkable for anyone, including a candidate for office, to just say "I'm not religious." Nobody bats an eye and the conversation moves on to the next topic.
I support and respect Sanders. But his shucking and jiving on this issue is shameful.
I support and respect Sanders. But his shucking and jiving on this issue is shameful.
1
As opposed to outright lying by claiming that god guides his every thought?
1
President Obama did mention "nonbelievers" in his first inaugural address: "We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus, and nonbelievers." But, to the author's point, that was seven years ago, and it was the briefest of acknowledgments; there's a long way to go.
8
To me, as a veteran, THIS goes right along with the "hollow sounding" thank you for your service.
15
Best column in decades! Yes Bernie, all we need is the golden rule, which all religions pretend to embrace. Wasn't this country founded on freedom of thought, belief and reason? Journalists should adhere to these principles or not get printed.
4
Amen.
3
I think Jesus would weep if were around to see what many of his followers have become.
5
36 million is not 22% of the population. If you need to play with the numbers or be in any way less than transparent, you have something to hide.
Also, people are not equal, some are better people, smarter, than others. There is a hierarchy. You can call it what you want but there is someone at the top. Those who think they are clever are not. They are fools.
Also, people are not equal, some are better people, smarter, than others. There is a hierarchy. You can call it what you want but there is someone at the top. Those who think they are clever are not. They are fools.
I understood those numbers to represent the voting age population. But, yeah, it could've been clearer.
You lose, John.
The purpose of secular law is to equalize that which is not equal.
Hierarchical laws are for religions and authoritarian countries.... not for countries that demand equality.
Equalitist countries have "someone at the top", too.
They are just not kings or gods or dictators-for-life.
They are voted in... and voted out.
In fact, I'm a female.
I've got a pretty good idea what rung you'd like to stick ME on.
The same one as the King of Saudi Arabia.
Right?
The purpose of secular law is to equalize that which is not equal.
Hierarchical laws are for religions and authoritarian countries.... not for countries that demand equality.
Equalitist countries have "someone at the top", too.
They are just not kings or gods or dictators-for-life.
They are voted in... and voted out.
In fact, I'm a female.
I've got a pretty good idea what rung you'd like to stick ME on.
The same one as the King of Saudi Arabia.
Right?
1
I know what you mean. My thoughts and prayers are with you. ;-)
1
My problem with "God Bless America" is that it's a command, a hortatory imperative: God *must* bless America.....as if He was some sort of cosmic bellhop and America had appeared at the front desk of a hotel, hammered the bell, and demanded more blessings.
Properly it should be a prayer: *May* God Bless America
Properly it should be a prayer: *May* God Bless America
5
I have a bumpersticker that reads, "God bless the whole world, no exceptions."
Keep your theocracy out of my democracy.
Please.
Please.
29
The skywriting of jesus in the photo is in Kissimmee, Florida, home of Disney World!. Is there a connection?
4
Maybe the question should be can Senator Sanders (Jewish, not practicing) be elected President in a nation of religious people nuts or otherwise. Is he wasting the DNC's time by running and irrelevant chat as a purely practical matter.
1
It took until I was around 22 before I could fully own the truth of my atheism. I had never actually believed in anything supernatural, but it was so difficult to live that truth. Being surrounded by people who were religious in one fashion or another, it was much easier to simply act as if I, too, believed. The last, most pitiful rationalization boiled down to “but if it were true, I could spend eternity in hell”. I finally realized the ridiculousness of claiming to believe something that you plainly don’t believe. Then I thought about all the religious people around me: do they really believe the nonsense that their religion tells them? We know that everyone has to face the social pressure, including that of parents and other authorities, to say they believe. Are they, too, bound by the fear of “what if it’s true” despite the fact that there is zero evidence? I suspect that most people, if not all people, are closet atheists.
4
Dear Ms. Jacoby,
It would help if you and others always referred to "faith" by what it is: superstition.
It would help if you and others always referred to "faith" by what it is: superstition.
10
Love Trump, when asked about his favorite bible passage, says it is too personal to share, as he waves his mothers bible, and if you are a true American, tears well up in your eyes!
Two sentences give me reason to comment, one seriously, one perhaps less so.
The first: “Yes, America is still a predominantly Christian nation…”
I cannot accept that phrasing, which implies that the nation is guided by the Christian counterpart of Islamic Sharia law. We encounter similar phrasing when someone writes, "America is a racist nation".
My phrasing. "America is a nation in which more than 50 percent of adults profess to be Christian." To profess is not necessarily to practice.
The second: “Mr. Sanders replied with… his usual blunt style: ‘I am who I am’.”
Ever since I photographed the Vermont license plate IMWHOIM in Jericho VT that I use in my NYT commenter Logo I have wondered who the owner of that car was. Now I know, none other than Bernie Sanders telling us IMWHOIM.
And that Bernie, is one more reason for me to vote for you if given the chance.
Only-NeverInSweden.blogspot.com
Dual citizen-USA-SE
The first: “Yes, America is still a predominantly Christian nation…”
I cannot accept that phrasing, which implies that the nation is guided by the Christian counterpart of Islamic Sharia law. We encounter similar phrasing when someone writes, "America is a racist nation".
My phrasing. "America is a nation in which more than 50 percent of adults profess to be Christian." To profess is not necessarily to practice.
The second: “Mr. Sanders replied with… his usual blunt style: ‘I am who I am’.”
Ever since I photographed the Vermont license plate IMWHOIM in Jericho VT that I use in my NYT commenter Logo I have wondered who the owner of that car was. Now I know, none other than Bernie Sanders telling us IMWHOIM.
And that Bernie, is one more reason for me to vote for you if given the chance.
Only-NeverInSweden.blogspot.com
Dual citizen-USA-SE
6
My secret, as an enthusiastic Atheist, when everyone breaks out singing God Bless America? I join in, belting out the chorus – but dropping the ‘B’.
It’s how I retain my secular sanity.
It’s how I retain my secular sanity.
8
Excellent work-around!! Next time I'm home on a visit and someone drags me to a dreary sports event I'll use it!
Brilliant!
God Bless America, exceptionalism and all.
3
Do you know what American exceptionalism actually is?
It is not what most now claim it to be.
It is not what most now claim it to be.
l believe in a God spelled CHANCE that could be good or bad depending on the image others create for themselves and for which they are undoubtedly wrong.
2
The conjunction of jingoism and theism is a danger to us all and the antithesis to America's founding principles. It is not so much " sick and tired of " but rather " worried by " those who seem to differ so greatly from my understanding of freedom of religion.
5
How "reasonable" is it to expect candidates to ignore the consequences to their election prospects of saying what would make you feel good? What you call pandering is in fact signaling of belonging to "us." No doubt the "us against them" mentality is far from our democratic ideal. It is reasonable to decry this state of the union but hardly reasonable to expect politicians to fly in the face of it. Nor is it reasonable for you to claim the banner of reason for a stance that chooses to ignore how human beings are actually constituted in favor of a view of how much better things would be if they were more reasonable.
1
Very nice piece in this season of religious hypocrisy. If I was religious, I'm quite sure the references to religion by the crop of Presidential candidates would make me convulsively emetic. But then again, religionists do tend to wear their religion on their sleeves, so perhaps the religious grand-standing of the candidates is to be expected.
3
it is more difficult to live as an atheist than a theist. We know we must depend only upon ourselves and other humans, not an imaginary Force. We know that being good for the sake of goodness is inherently more moral than being good out of fear of "divine" retribution.
10
Stand thou there, theist, for I am "inherently more moral than thou."
Really Ms. Jacoby? Do people who express their faith make you sick? Tired? The faith of secularists (I suppose a nicer word than atheists) absolutely amazes me. i'm a person of who believes in and trusts the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and the love and study of my faith doesn't require anywhere near the faith of the atheist.
You must believe that this universe was created by a "Big Bang" in the face of scientific evidence that says order never comes from chaos; that the intricacy of the human eye or the atom was created by this same bang.
God says if you don't believe in Him, then look at what He essentially calls his "other book" -- nature. Vast ecosystems that support valuable forms of plant and animal life, much of which we still don't understand. Plants that have properties that cure human disease; the formation of the planets that put the earth in the only spot that can possibly sustain life; the human conscience that writes God's law on our hearts.
Really?
I don't even believe in atheism. I think it's more like pride that results from agnosticism -- another word for laziness as in "I don't w ant to know or I simply don't care." Good luck with that.
You must believe that this universe was created by a "Big Bang" in the face of scientific evidence that says order never comes from chaos; that the intricacy of the human eye or the atom was created by this same bang.
God says if you don't believe in Him, then look at what He essentially calls his "other book" -- nature. Vast ecosystems that support valuable forms of plant and animal life, much of which we still don't understand. Plants that have properties that cure human disease; the formation of the planets that put the earth in the only spot that can possibly sustain life; the human conscience that writes God's law on our hearts.
Really?
I don't even believe in atheism. I think it's more like pride that results from agnosticism -- another word for laziness as in "I don't w ant to know or I simply don't care." Good luck with that.
3
Most atheists I think would not agree that they have faith based beliefs. Atheism itself is simply having no belief about God, and does not require faith.
And science does show us that nature is natural, not supernatural. Science shows us that nature is naturally orderly, allowing us to predict future events based on describing how nature works. It shows us how the natural processes of fusion, gravity and evolution have led to the formation of complex life forms. It shows us that conscience is a product of socialization, passing on cultural mores to each new generation.
When science does uncover actual empirical evidence for something supernatural, I suspect most atheists would be open enough to consider such evidence. Until then, belief in supernatural entities just seems unimportant.
And science does show us that nature is natural, not supernatural. Science shows us that nature is naturally orderly, allowing us to predict future events based on describing how nature works. It shows us how the natural processes of fusion, gravity and evolution have led to the formation of complex life forms. It shows us that conscience is a product of socialization, passing on cultural mores to each new generation.
When science does uncover actual empirical evidence for something supernatural, I suspect most atheists would be open enough to consider such evidence. Until then, belief in supernatural entities just seems unimportant.
You must be very insecure in your superstition if you can't stand that many of us just don't care about it. Not caring about the Abrahamic superstition isn't pride it's indifference to an old and meaningless superstition which is not only outdated but ugly and sadistic at it's core.
3
Who is it that said, "God didn't make man, man made God."
2
It's long past time for secular humanists to stand up and be counted, particularly considering the constant jingoistic crusade of christian jihadists who disdain the separation of church and state and instead want to control all our lives through fundamentalist christian sharia law.
9
"President Barack Obama’s nominee to serve as the top U.S. tax prosecutor has stalled over an obscure letter he wrote seven years ago questioning the legal tactics of a group that wants pastors to speak out on politics."
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-12-11/obama-pick-for-top-tax...
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-12-11/obama-pick-for-top-tax...
As attributed to Marcus Aurelius: "Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived life by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones." Ethical behavior means living a good life irrespective of any possible connection to religion or belief in a deity.
6
Given religious history, chronic opportunistic behaviors and outright crimes by religion folk-- between their absurd platitudes(!)-- religion is 100% unconvincing to an increasing number of people..
3
I don't always believe in God, but when I do, it's when I think this country is going to hell. Which it is.
2
I believe that religion in the West is not as strong or as popular as it used to be.
Maybe it is because of all the various religions in wars over the past decade or so that death and violence appears to be almost commonplace.
God does not appear to be saving many people at all.
In fact with war especially we see the death of many women, children and innocents and ask how does God allow all this...??
Answering my own question I believe God is in many people but there are also many whom are Godless or have a perverted sense of religion, according to our beliefs,and that their ways of following their god is superior to say yours.
That is how wars start.
In fact being Godless does not necessarily mean a person is evil. It just means he/she does not believe in God or have a religion.
In fact the most holiest of persons on the planet may be the Dalai Lama. When asked if he thought religion was the most important thing in his life he relied 'No'.
His answer to the most important was 'Ethics'.
And I believe that he is so right, and God does not really have to save America because it is doing this on its own.
STAN CHUN
Wellington
New Zealand
6 February, 2016.
Maybe it is because of all the various religions in wars over the past decade or so that death and violence appears to be almost commonplace.
God does not appear to be saving many people at all.
In fact with war especially we see the death of many women, children and innocents and ask how does God allow all this...??
Answering my own question I believe God is in many people but there are also many whom are Godless or have a perverted sense of religion, according to our beliefs,and that their ways of following their god is superior to say yours.
That is how wars start.
In fact being Godless does not necessarily mean a person is evil. It just means he/she does not believe in God or have a religion.
In fact the most holiest of persons on the planet may be the Dalai Lama. When asked if he thought religion was the most important thing in his life he relied 'No'.
His answer to the most important was 'Ethics'.
And I believe that he is so right, and God does not really have to save America because it is doing this on its own.
STAN CHUN
Wellington
New Zealand
6 February, 2016.
May God protect me from the rabid Christians, that's who we're talking about here, isn't it, and may the Force protect me from the rabid secularists.
4
I found myself applauding to the major points of this article, even while lamenting the fact that it's preaching to the choir. People who read the NYT aren't the ones who need to be convinced. Faux News readers need to understand that their fellow nonreligious American citizens can be just as patriotic and ethical as they are (if not more so, arguably, as we don't seek some eternal reward or fear some eternal punishment). But religion poisons everything, and especially the brain, so proffering up reasonable arguments is akin to casting pearls before swine.
4
"God Bless America" these days it has a meaning not intended by those who constantly appeal to it. I think this might be more appropriate invocation.
"God bless us and protect us from the politicians who prey on the poor and defenseless, and who shower riches on themselves and their wealthy friends at our expense. Protect us from their meanness and cold heart as they foul the air and water, to destroy species that you created and doom our children to misery.
God bless us and protect us from their war like ways and utter disregard of human life, even while claiming the opposite. Bless us and protect us from their theft and their lies. Bless us as we suffer under their rule as we long for the democracy that they have stolen from us.
Bless us oh Lord and shield us from the demons of greed and corruption that have become entrenched in our government. God bless that part of America that works for a living rather than exploits the labor of others. Bless the meek and humble for they are few among our governing class.
And bless us oh Lord with the patience to forebear these charlatans who invoke your name to line their pockets at our expense. God bless that part of America willing to transform to a new government, one guided by honesty, love, equality and respect for the planet and all creatures. But bestow no blessings on the money changers for they have defiled the temple and must be caste out. Bless us oh Lord in this task to rid ourselves of their curse."
"God bless us and protect us from the politicians who prey on the poor and defenseless, and who shower riches on themselves and their wealthy friends at our expense. Protect us from their meanness and cold heart as they foul the air and water, to destroy species that you created and doom our children to misery.
God bless us and protect us from their war like ways and utter disregard of human life, even while claiming the opposite. Bless us and protect us from their theft and their lies. Bless us as we suffer under their rule as we long for the democracy that they have stolen from us.
Bless us oh Lord and shield us from the demons of greed and corruption that have become entrenched in our government. God bless that part of America that works for a living rather than exploits the labor of others. Bless the meek and humble for they are few among our governing class.
And bless us oh Lord with the patience to forebear these charlatans who invoke your name to line their pockets at our expense. God bless that part of America willing to transform to a new government, one guided by honesty, love, equality and respect for the planet and all creatures. But bestow no blessings on the money changers for they have defiled the temple and must be caste out. Bless us oh Lord in this task to rid ourselves of their curse."
4
"In God We Trust" is printed on our currency, and the Great Seal of the US contains a reference to the deity "He Approves the New World Order." I don't think those items will be removed any time soon, though I can see the objections. May be we should change that to "She."
I'd just settle for getting rid of the song. "God Bless America" is a cheesy bit of work (sorry Irving), and I usually mute the TV in order to avoid hearing.
I'd just settle for getting rid of the song. "God Bless America" is a cheesy bit of work (sorry Irving), and I usually mute the TV in order to avoid hearing.
1
As a committed humanist, rationalist and objective observer, I question why it matters that these quaint folkways are worthy of a column. Further, the emotional screed will not recruit new adherents to rationalism and spiritual freedom. Respectfully, Charlie
2
I didn't "get it" in Catholic school, church, or upbringing. As a young age I decided I didn't believe in god. I must have been 7 or 8. I kept it to myself, and I still do, except for a few like minded friends, oh, and one friend who accepts me the way I am. I kind of like that she believes in the Rainbow Bridge as well as god. I would love to see all my dogs again.
God bless America.
God bless America.
2
Most USAmericans are, to put it succinctly, intellectually lazy. Institutional religion provides easy answers, straight off the shelves at Walmart. Secular ethics is more demanding and requires critical thinking. And that makes them more discerning shoppers. So it's no surprise that American politicians campaigning on cheap slogans and easy soundbites go for the religious vote. It's the easiest purchase.
6
May God hold the Carolina Panthers in the palm of his gnarled hand and smite the unworthy Denver Broncos by seven and a half points or more.
6
No one needs religion to be a good person. No one needs to believe in any god to be a good person. The religious right in this country, from the 17th century Puritans to their modern day descendants have caused grievous harm to our country. All religions are harmful and ridiculous. John Lennon had it right. Imagine no religion...
7
As a person of faith, I am sick and tired of reading articles like this one and the readers comments mocking those of us who have a believe in God. I do not bring my Catholic faith to my place of work or to social gatherings but it is my rock. I take it very seriously especially in my hours of need. God has never failed me and I have been blessed in life. I do not criticize atheists or agnostics and respect the same treatment. Live and let live.
57
Which makes you one of the minority of Christians...not wearing your faith on both your sleeves, around your neck and on your back. Go outside the NYC area and you will find a completely different kind. But Catholics are no longer the noise-makers. They had their time. Now its the American Evangelicals, the American Fundamentalists, etc - many of whom actively support a movement to an American theocracy. And they do so by undermining all our civil rights thru discrete local political action...such as rezoning business districts to push-out women clinics that either perform or support abortion. By filling local school boards with strident Creationists (aka; Intelligent Design) to hamstring the science curriculum. All of which is often funded by non-local (eg; Koch Bros) uber-christian political organizations that are now fighting their way up the political-government ladder, instead of trying to take the top rung. They've shifted from National aims (an extreme christian President) to filling the local offices.
There organizations like The Family, Dominionists by trade, who walk the halls of Congress and have more access to our elected officials than many regular business lobbyists. Who will when needed call for their members to flood (and subsequently shut down) a targeted elected officials phone and email systems so they cant perform the business of the day. Or simply harass whomever they wish (staffers, supporters) - while the Organization keeps its hands clean.
There organizations like The Family, Dominionists by trade, who walk the halls of Congress and have more access to our elected officials than many regular business lobbyists. Who will when needed call for their members to flood (and subsequently shut down) a targeted elected officials phone and email systems so they cant perform the business of the day. Or simply harass whomever they wish (staffers, supporters) - while the Organization keeps its hands clean.
Most of the comments concerning Christians, were critical only of those so called believers who were also hypocrites. Who, while pronouncing their belief, and denigrating those who chose not to believe, or believed in a different god, did not act in ways which supported their religious tenets. Those religious practitioners should perhaps concentrate a bit more on earning God's blessing.(just in case)
Religious beliefs and (more importantly) the thought processes that lead to them impact the choices people make. Humanity is known to make some awful choices. So, many people passionately believe the choice process must change - with urgency. That leads to a key question - how do we help people reconcile your approach of *not* trying to change the people of the world (live and let live) with the approach of not accepting how the people of the world do terrible things (change people)? It seems asking people to change their choices requires convincing them of change. Convincing people is usually done using reason and evidence-based thinking? How can we get people to use evidence-based thinking when nearly nobody uses it for the most important beliefs in their lives - religion? Perhaps work is not the place for such discussions, but how would mass media NOT be appropriate? Why would you be sick of the discussion? Is it not appropriate to seek change and stop the abuse of so many humans?
Let's face it. Religion survives through the indoctrination of children before their minds are developed enough for critical thinking and logic. Which by the way takes some 25 years or so. If every single one of the Presidential candidates were accidentally switched at birth and sent home with a Hindu or atheist family, they would grow up to be Hindus or atheists.
Religion is a form of delusion which the dictionary defines as: "A persistent false belief held in the face of strong contradictory evidence, especially as a sign of a psychiatric condition."
What a sorry indictment of religion; that the only way it can survive is through the indoctrination of children.
Religion is a form of delusion which the dictionary defines as: "A persistent false belief held in the face of strong contradictory evidence, especially as a sign of a psychiatric condition."
What a sorry indictment of religion; that the only way it can survive is through the indoctrination of children.
12
That is why the McCarthyites enacted an unconstitutional law that inserted the phrase "under God" into the loyalty oath students recite every school day.
3
A "Christian" would feed the hungry, nurse the sick, care for the disadvantaged and not kill. These are useful precepts for people who claim faith and use precepts for all people. However, love they neighbor as thyself has little place in America. All you have to do is look at Flint, MI, and the shot-up bodies littering our schools, theaters, campuses and streets. Woody Guthrie put it this way, "The gamblin' man is rich, the workin' man is poor/And I ain't got no home in this world anymore."
8
Wow! What an incredibly mean spirited and short sighted editorial. You have manged to insult a gigantic portion of devout conservative, moderate, and liberal voters. Why the need to be so offensive? Secular people like yourself would do well to try to understand and respect those who choose to believe in God. Sick and Tired of ‘God Bless America is a slogan that will guarantee a Republican landslide.....is that what you want???
1
Well said, Ms. Jacoby!
I, too, am tired of our Christian totalitarians. Let's dream of a United States where one never has to hear about god unless one chooses.
I, too, am tired of our Christian totalitarians. Let's dream of a United States where one never has to hear about god unless one chooses.
16
there is a belief in Reason and a grace that comes from a God as a society understands Him.
Try that out, Susan.
Try that out, Susan.
1
People who believe that the universe is governed by an interested humanoid are hopelessly juvenile. All the lip service paid to their delusion will be the death of all of us.
11
The phrase "God bless America" is offensive. It implies the Christian god. It simultaneously discredits and calves other perspectives and opinions from expressing views in large public forums.
1) Discredits other gods: If you don't like my argument, try thinking about Allah when you say, "God bless America". It doesn't really work does it? For the record, I'm agnostic.
2) Calves other perspectives/opinions from expressing views in large public forums: If you don't believe me, picture yourself running for a large public office. Now picture yourself promoting yourself as a devout Muslim or agnostic in Texas, Florida, South Carolina, or Utah. Picture telling crowds of people that the existence of evolution is not up for debate, that Earth is 4.56 billion years old, and that there are more galaxies in the Universe than there are stars in our own galaxy.
Now pretend that you didn't mention any of the above facts to these groups, but instead told them the world was flat. Compare these two hypothetical scenarios. How do the reactions from the crowds differ in each case?
1) Discredits other gods: If you don't like my argument, try thinking about Allah when you say, "God bless America". It doesn't really work does it? For the record, I'm agnostic.
2) Calves other perspectives/opinions from expressing views in large public forums: If you don't believe me, picture yourself running for a large public office. Now picture yourself promoting yourself as a devout Muslim or agnostic in Texas, Florida, South Carolina, or Utah. Picture telling crowds of people that the existence of evolution is not up for debate, that Earth is 4.56 billion years old, and that there are more galaxies in the Universe than there are stars in our own galaxy.
Now pretend that you didn't mention any of the above facts to these groups, but instead told them the world was flat. Compare these two hypothetical scenarios. How do the reactions from the crowds differ in each case?
3
Might be suggested that this resolute and screechy belief in the non-existence of God, often brandished as evidence of intellectual sophistication, is not only unscientific but also as anti-intellectual as the "Magic-Hippy-In-The-Sky" of the evangelical right. Neither of these groups, nor any of the Establishments of Religion between their poles, have any business or legal standing as participants in national administration, legislation or affairs...
1
The first amendment is nonsense unless "establishment of religion" means "a faith-based belief".
It’s obvious from Ms. Jacoby’s essay that Radical Atheism is a growing force in America and will continue to recruit as long as our elected officals permit God to be so forcefully shunned from the public sphere. The surprising ascension of both Bernie Sanders and Hillary Clinton testifies to this fact, as these Atheists are clearly flexing their muscles and demanding far more say in our national affairs. But at what price? What does this group truly want? For a belief system based on “nothingness,” they surely are asking much of our civilization, particularly when it comes to our most sacred values. Will we continue to sacrifice our morality, and our very human decency, to appease this militant subculture? Is it ethically just to hand over so much of our nation’s identity to an angry, vocal minority when it violates the spirit of God that pervades the ethos of our Founding Fathers? Is it any surprise that as Atheism rises, our economy falls? Russia and China are both breathing down our nation’s neck. Iran and North Korea have WMDs. Our borders are insecure. Dangerous drugs, especially marijuana, are now commonplace among our young people. The zealotry of Radical Atheism is clearly responsible for much of this but they continue to assault our heartland with a greed that rivals no other.
No Stephenson, not a belief system base on "nothingness" but rather based on universally accepted values, rather than the narrow, selfish values of individualism and the embracing of war, fear and other general disregard of the the earth and all its species.
1
Hillary always caps a speech with "God bless you. God bless America."
If God wanted Ted Cruz to be president, why doesn't he just tweek all the ballots in favor of Ted. If he created the universe, changing a few ballots wouldn't be a big deal. That's the kind of trick he could do in a heartbeat.
If he was against gay marriage, he could have reached out to a couple of the justices and changed their minds.
And why does he not intervene in the Middle East, where they need a lot of help, just a couple of simple miracles could turn the whole thing around.
And the reason is, there just is no God.
If he was against gay marriage, he could have reached out to a couple of the justices and changed their minds.
And why does he not intervene in the Middle East, where they need a lot of help, just a couple of simple miracles could turn the whole thing around.
And the reason is, there just is no God.
5
Ok, we get it. You don't believe in God, but your comment is based on the assumption that if God was real, he would fix things the way the humans think he should fix them. You're just another example of why man's reasoning must be aided by a transcendent reasoning that has all the full perspective. If mankind could solve his problems on his own, he would have by now. Stop blaming his failures on the religious wackos.
Jacoby may be right, but she, along with many in the secular progressive crowd who delight in this sort of confrontation, isn't very smart. They go out of their way to alienate the devout, believing "why not" they're all Republicans, anyway. In fact not, most Latinos are very conservative Evangelicals and Catholics. So you may think you're clever by dressing up in funny costumes, calling yourselves Satanists, and demand to say a prayer at the Phoenix city council meeting. But embarrassing and infuriating the Latinos on the city council won't win you friends ... or many votes in November.
1
Religion: invented by the first con-man the minute he met the first sucker.
"In every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot, abetting his abuses in return for protection to his own. It is error alone that needs the support of government. Truth can stand by itself.”
Thomas Jefferson — in a letter to Horatio Spofford, 1814
"In every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot, abetting his abuses in return for protection to his own. It is error alone that needs the support of government. Truth can stand by itself.”
Thomas Jefferson — in a letter to Horatio Spofford, 1814
14
A person who believes in life after death will believe anything.
I long for the day when politicians start using secular dog-whistles.
2
Even Mainstream Christians are tired of the phrase, so loosely used.
BTW - Hillary only brings up religion if asked. She doesn't throw it around
to win votes.
BTW - Hillary only brings up religion if asked. She doesn't throw it around
to win votes.
4
To which I say, three cheers for the UK, where it's possible to stand for prime minister (as Ed Miliband did last year) and be both atheist and Jewish. His loss was due to lack of charisma, not his secularism.
The shocking hypocrisy of US politicians who wave the Jesus flag is not lost on their British 'cousins' over here.
The shocking hypocrisy of US politicians who wave the Jesus flag is not lost on their British 'cousins' over here.
6
Whether one says God Bless America or whatever one's religion or whatever can do something good be God or any entity. At present scenario of Money grabbers only hope is God bless America ( from all politicians& their Corporate co looters
Excellent op ed Ms. Jacoby.
God Bless America and ‘one nation under god’ with the pledge of allegiance in school may be a result of the cold war against godless communism. Is the US still fighting this war? Politicians are afraid to reflect the values of their secular voters, lest they get criticized in some weird way.
We have explicit church/state separation from the nation’s founding, but there’s still more religious influence in our politics today compared to other nations.
Many countries which had state religions not too long ago, have much less religion in their politics today. They don’t fight about prayer in schools, abortion rights, and whether an employer has religious objection to birth control included in employee insurance.
US politics uses religion to manipulate the public and win votes. The Catholic church’s every word on abortion is conveyed by the media.
Other religion’s clergy who are pro choice are never interviewed in the media. They should be on TV telling why they think their religious ethics can co exist with choice on abortion rights.
God Bless America and ‘one nation under god’ with the pledge of allegiance in school may be a result of the cold war against godless communism. Is the US still fighting this war? Politicians are afraid to reflect the values of their secular voters, lest they get criticized in some weird way.
We have explicit church/state separation from the nation’s founding, but there’s still more religious influence in our politics today compared to other nations.
Many countries which had state religions not too long ago, have much less religion in their politics today. They don’t fight about prayer in schools, abortion rights, and whether an employer has religious objection to birth control included in employee insurance.
US politics uses religion to manipulate the public and win votes. The Catholic church’s every word on abortion is conveyed by the media.
Other religion’s clergy who are pro choice are never interviewed in the media. They should be on TV telling why they think their religious ethics can co exist with choice on abortion rights.
5
All these people running around speaking for God are actually violating the 2nd commandment. Thou shall not take the Lords name in vain ( ity) .
Duh!
Duh!
3
This is the fatal flaw in the Ten Commandments. Moses took the name of God in vain to legitimize and immortalize the other nine commandments.
If there is a god it has a strange sense of humor
4
You're preaching to the choir (sorry for the pun).
1
It's worrisome when someone expresses their disdain against the phrase "God Bless America"...it's iconic, traditional and our beloved Kate Smith's rendition made it as American as apple pie. Admittedly, politicians tend to over use it to garner votes, but we Americans are more disposed to accept it, as opposed to hearing appeals from a Thomas Paine observation, considering the majority of our elected politicians don't know the meaning of the word "reason".
Well Susan, I am not in he least religious, but totally and absolutely disagree with you. Please don't tell us you went to an Ivy league college or university.
1
Most Christians, Muslims, Jews, Hindus, et al. just go about their business, being quietly observant. But atheists? They just never shut up about it. They are as loud and obnoxious as any of the fundamentalists.
Follow your thought to its logical conclusion, and you'll realize that there may be lots of quiet atheists around you - you just don't know about them. Many atheists undoubtedly keep a low profile out of fear of the consequences. Because atheists are widely feared, hated and misunderstood. I daresay this is an even bigger problem in North Carolina than in some other parts of America.
So, yes, you are only aware of the loudest and most fearless. But they most certainly don't represent all atheists.
So, yes, you are only aware of the loudest and most fearless. But they most certainly don't represent all atheists.
Even more blessings for America? And you know where these additional blessings are going to end up -- in the bloated coffers of the 1%.
The camel is not going to shrink, and the eye of the needle is not going to expand. Good Lord, You know where the 1% are headed . . .
The camel is not going to shrink, and the eye of the needle is not going to expand. Good Lord, You know where the 1% are headed . . .
1
Just as (apparently) some are "Sick and tired of 'God Bless America" many are equally sick an tired of the intolerance shown those who happen to espouse religious beliefs and/or practices. Strange how no one got Christmas removed as a Federal Holiday in the USA. No one has ended the practice of clergy of various faiths offering an invocation or prayer at the daily legislative sessions on the federal or state level. No one has stopped the practice of Chaplains in our armed forces being paid from Federal Funds. No one has removed "In God We Trust" from our currency.
Yet any blog or news story comments is full of anti-religious, often hate-FILLED sentiment. People have the perfect right not to believe in God. But what that crowd seems to forget is that those who DO believe in God also have a right to the free exercise of THEIR (religious) beliefs as well! You don't want to pray or stand as a prayer is offered? Then don't. Don't want to listen? Don't come into the session/meeting/even till it's over. Pretty simple. But carrying on like a cranky old bigot is not going to garner you much support or sympathy. Making faces when someone says "Merry Christmas" is just what a fool would do. It's a FEDERAL HOLIDAY....like July 4th. People will wish you Merry Christmas. Don't like it just because it's not your thing? Passover and Hanukkah aren't mine, but I don't bristle or have a reason to be ugly or hateful to someone for their sentiments. Grow up.
Yet any blog or news story comments is full of anti-religious, often hate-FILLED sentiment. People have the perfect right not to believe in God. But what that crowd seems to forget is that those who DO believe in God also have a right to the free exercise of THEIR (religious) beliefs as well! You don't want to pray or stand as a prayer is offered? Then don't. Don't want to listen? Don't come into the session/meeting/even till it's over. Pretty simple. But carrying on like a cranky old bigot is not going to garner you much support or sympathy. Making faces when someone says "Merry Christmas" is just what a fool would do. It's a FEDERAL HOLIDAY....like July 4th. People will wish you Merry Christmas. Don't like it just because it's not your thing? Passover and Hanukkah aren't mine, but I don't bristle or have a reason to be ugly or hateful to someone for their sentiments. Grow up.
1
Much ado about nothing.
1
"God bless America" is a strange statement. It is a command telling God to bless something. I would think the proper form would be a request: "Please God, won't you bless America?"
The most proper closing of a political speech would be to keep thoughts of God to one's self.
The most proper closing of a political speech would be to keep thoughts of God to one's self.
If you believe G-d speaks to you about how you should live your live, and you endeavor to live that way, I respect that.
I will never accept that G-d speaks to you about how I should live my life.
I will never accept that G-d speaks to you about how I should live my life.
5
Not for long if American people hate God so much, God will leave American alone and the any nation that embrace God, He will raise them up and take control over USA... God is not crying but American people will.
Exactly
2
Let's start by getting rid of the government handout given to religious institutions in the IRS code.
7
Yes. So tired of religion and politics being conflated. It doesn't help run the country.
5
"...consider the gravity of the mistake made by supporters of legal abortion when they allowed the anti-abortion movement to claim the term “pro-life” after Roe v. Wade."
"Claim the term"? The 'term' is not claimed, it is justified by the advances in prenatal medical care. One who worships (can I use that term here?) Thomas Paine's words: “the most formidable weapon against errors of every kind is Reason" might be expected to understand the facts behind "pro-life"
"Claim the term"? The 'term' is not claimed, it is justified by the advances in prenatal medical care. One who worships (can I use that term here?) Thomas Paine's words: “the most formidable weapon against errors of every kind is Reason" might be expected to understand the facts behind "pro-life"
1
Everyone should read Jacoby's book "Freethinkers" It outlines their role in American history. Fascinating.
2
This is a test. About 50% of my comments never get posted. Just trying to figure out if it's my computer or a buggy webpage. Thanks:)
2
I have heard God Bless America once too often at sport events.
4
Let's see how many times a player in this Sunday's Super Bowl points at the heavens, send kisses and crosses himself after successfully scoring against the less devout, heretical sinners on the other team.
6
Religion becomes a problem when it is based on ignorance. It doesn't have to. But when it does, it turns into fundamentalism. Nothing good comes from that when it gets extreme.
4
To quote someone who made sense to me, "Why can't we just get along." Why don't we all seek reconciliation with each other accepting the fact that most of us are not going to change our minds. Let us stop intimidating each other
2
Not only am I sick and tired of hearing "god bless America" from politicians at every turn, but I find it especially annoying when that phrase comes from the mouths of devotees of Ayn Rand, as it often does. To me, that is a clear signal that the particular person lacks a facility for logical thought and is thus supremely unqualified to be a political leader.
To those who question how one can be a moral person without believing in god, the answer is that one is not truly a moral person if the only thing keeping him in line is a fear of god.
To those who question how one can be a moral person without believing in god, the answer is that one is not truly a moral person if the only thing keeping him in line is a fear of god.
11
Ms. Jacoby closes her polemic by quoting T. Paine. I suspect that she really means, not just reason, but "her" brand of reason. Whatever happened to tolerance?
3
"Tolerance", like "politically (in)correct" and "religious freedom" are all becoming (or already are) code-words, dog-whistles of right-wing fundamentalists.
As the author pointed out, "...'religious freedom' is in danger of becoming code for accepting public money while imposing faith-based values on others".
The righties never tire of defining and re-defining terms.
"Mom and apple pie" no longer means what it meant to me as a child in the 50's. Back then it meant the warmth of a loving home, just one warm home within the many of the community.
Today it is a rally-cry against the hordes of barbarians in the world who "hate us for our freedoms".
I resent the diminishment of my language, of the twisting of common phrases that used to include us all, into narrowly-focused bias groups.
"Tolerance" is/has become the code-word for "I am a biased, bigoted bully and you can't stop my hate-speech. Nyah, nyah, nyah!"
Too bad, it once was a good word. No more.
As the author pointed out, "...'religious freedom' is in danger of becoming code for accepting public money while imposing faith-based values on others".
The righties never tire of defining and re-defining terms.
"Mom and apple pie" no longer means what it meant to me as a child in the 50's. Back then it meant the warmth of a loving home, just one warm home within the many of the community.
Today it is a rally-cry against the hordes of barbarians in the world who "hate us for our freedoms".
I resent the diminishment of my language, of the twisting of common phrases that used to include us all, into narrowly-focused bias groups.
"Tolerance" is/has become the code-word for "I am a biased, bigoted bully and you can't stop my hate-speech. Nyah, nyah, nyah!"
Too bad, it once was a good word. No more.
4
I love this stuff but -- lint, naval, contemplation.
1
God's silence is deafening, isn't it. So until He weighs in, what exactly are we having a conversation about?
1
We can watch the people who want God to intervene burn the planet down.
1
Thomas Jefferson: "the whole American people" had ratified a constitutional amendment so "their legislature (Congress) should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between Church & State."
And before our eyes this wall has disappeared. Of course these same Jesus freaks want to erect a greater wall around our borders.
And before our eyes this wall has disappeared. Of course these same Jesus freaks want to erect a greater wall around our borders.
8
Why don't my fellow atheists, those in a position of power, keep reminding everyone about the utter selfishness of the religious reasons for being good.
Christians are good because they are afraid that if they are not good, an angry god will send them to hell instead of heaven.
Atheists are good because they love their fellow living beings and planet. They are good because they believe in this world, its people and other animals, and the potential for a trajectory toward a beautiful, compassionate existence in which everyone can reach their potential.
I know who I would rather trust to do the right thing. But for some reason, this comparison is not made nearly often enough.
Be good for goodness' sake, folks. But, be good because you personally want to go to heaven? Ugh. How ugly.
I would love to see a political candidate vocalizing this one day. Don't trust Mr. X. He's religious, which means the only reasons he has for doing the right thing pertain to selfishness. Whereas I am an atheist humanist, and therefore you can trust me to do the right thing on your behalf, because I love you.
Christians are good because they are afraid that if they are not good, an angry god will send them to hell instead of heaven.
Atheists are good because they love their fellow living beings and planet. They are good because they believe in this world, its people and other animals, and the potential for a trajectory toward a beautiful, compassionate existence in which everyone can reach their potential.
I know who I would rather trust to do the right thing. But for some reason, this comparison is not made nearly often enough.
Be good for goodness' sake, folks. But, be good because you personally want to go to heaven? Ugh. How ugly.
I would love to see a political candidate vocalizing this one day. Don't trust Mr. X. He's religious, which means the only reasons he has for doing the right thing pertain to selfishness. Whereas I am an atheist humanist, and therefore you can trust me to do the right thing on your behalf, because I love you.
5
everyone about the utter selfishness of the religious reasons for being good.
Christians are good because they are afraid that if they are not good, an angry god will send them to hell instead of heaven.
Atheists are good because they love their fellow living beings and planet. They are good because they believe in this world, its people and other animals, and the potential for a trajectory toward a beautiful, compassionate existence in which everyone can reach their potential.
I know who I would rather trust to do the right thing. But for some reason, this comparison is not made nearly often enough.
Be good for goodness' sake, folks. But, be good because you personally want to go to heaven? Ugh. How ugly.
I would love to see a political candidate vocalizing this one day. Don't trust Mr. X. He's religious, which means the only reasons he has for doing the right thing pertain to selfishness. Whereas I am an atheist humanist, and therefore you can trust me to do the right thing on your behalf, because I love you.
Christians are good because they are afraid that if they are not good, an angry god will send them to hell instead of heaven.
Atheists are good because they love their fellow living beings and planet. They are good because they believe in this world, its people and other animals, and the potential for a trajectory toward a beautiful, compassionate existence in which everyone can reach their potential.
I know who I would rather trust to do the right thing. But for some reason, this comparison is not made nearly often enough.
Be good for goodness' sake, folks. But, be good because you personally want to go to heaven? Ugh. How ugly.
I would love to see a political candidate vocalizing this one day. Don't trust Mr. X. He's religious, which means the only reasons he has for doing the right thing pertain to selfishness. Whereas I am an atheist humanist, and therefore you can trust me to do the right thing on your behalf, because I love you.
8
Religion is about death, not life.
1
So what does "God bless America" mean? It's always read as if in the second person--a demand, an order--which written, requires a ubiquitously absent comma: "God, bless America." Seems a presumptuous way to address a Supreme Being, if there were one.
1
It's an expression of a wish, conventionally shortened. It means "May God bless America."
"Goodbye" is a blessing in disguise: it's a condensed form (boiled down over a few hundred years) of "May God be with ye." God-by-ye.
"Goodbye" is a blessing in disguise: it's a condensed form (boiled down over a few hundred years) of "May God be with ye." God-by-ye.
It's a truism: the more you hear something, the less meaning it has. Hear it over and over and eventually it comes to mean nothing. Even the most conservative Christian should be able to recognize that politicians saying "God bless America" all the time is a violation of the 3rd commandment, making casual, wrongful use of the name of God. It's why Theodore Roosevelt thought it inappropriate to put "in God we trust" on coins and other common, trivial objects.
6
If God does not exist, objective moral values also do not exist [if they are not grounded in a transcendent source, they are just products of evolutionary conditioning or else no better than opinions]. But objective moral values do exist [child abuse, genital mutilation, and genocide are always wrong]. Therefore God exists. Google "William Lane Craig moral argument." This is NOT to say that atheists aren't moral people; of course they are, often more so than the religious. It is a question of whether morality has any objective basis without God. It doesn't.
2
Actually, being moral isn't possible if one has to rely on something external, i.e. the existence of god, to enforce it. Morality is rather holding oneself accountable for assisting the rest of the world as best one can understand the world's needs. It includes constant internal challenging of that understanding, a state best known as humility, which is the antithesis of boastful forms of religion.
3
Your empathies are subjective too. Your argument for God is sophistry.
Sorry oscar; your logic is false because your premise is false. Saying something is so doesn't make it so.
1
When I saw the title of the opinion piece by Ms Jacoby my thoughts turned to baseball and the seventh inning stretch.
So clever to throw in a catchy and patriotically perceived show tune when one is about to stand and shake out the kinks.
No business like show business.
But back to the article. The closing paragraph is my favourite.
Remove religion from politics.
I look forward to Ms Jacoby writing a piece on faith based initiatives.
So clever to throw in a catchy and patriotically perceived show tune when one is about to stand and shake out the kinks.
No business like show business.
But back to the article. The closing paragraph is my favourite.
Remove religion from politics.
I look forward to Ms Jacoby writing a piece on faith based initiatives.
4
continuation; remember also folks, this is the Primary season, which increasingly is becoming a "race for the base" once the primaries are over and the general starts, the GOP nominee will become less overtly religious and the DEM's candidate will ease into looking more so. the road to the white house has been for at least my lifetime a road that veers sharply to the fringes then tacks more gradually toward the center.
sooner or later (and I expect it to be much sooner (as in this cycle)) the swerve back to the middle may be as gentle a curve as ever witnessed if it happens at all.
full disclosure, im a registered Republican, but im more a centrist than the name belies. my biggest lament is that candidates of my preference from BOTH parties get KILLED in the primaries. of all the candidates out there gone or not , my preference was Jim Webb, a Democrat, but a centrist, and a solid guy, but he got no traction due to the base driven bloodbath of the primaries. i'd cross party lines and vote for him in a second
sooner or later (and I expect it to be much sooner (as in this cycle)) the swerve back to the middle may be as gentle a curve as ever witnessed if it happens at all.
full disclosure, im a registered Republican, but im more a centrist than the name belies. my biggest lament is that candidates of my preference from BOTH parties get KILLED in the primaries. of all the candidates out there gone or not , my preference was Jim Webb, a Democrat, but a centrist, and a solid guy, but he got no traction due to the base driven bloodbath of the primaries. i'd cross party lines and vote for him in a second
1
I am not an atheist, or even an agnostic, but I too am sick of "God Bless America"--the song, and the sentiment. (And I think Richard Dawkins is a simplistic reductionist.) But aside from it's being a dreadful song that plays into the "American exceptionalism" nonsense, what's wrong with "Take Me Out to the Ballgame"? I have never been to Yankee Stadium, but I have heard that the ushers block the exits, and you can't go to the bathroom during the seventh inning stretch during GBA. Is this true?
I couldn't agree more with this article. Anti science, anti reason politicians should have a price to pay for pandering to ignorance.
2
Summary of the relevant findings of the Brookings Institute's "2013 Religion, Values, and Immigration Reform Survey" (from the American Humanist website):
"...perhaps the most shocking finding of the study had to do with American atheists and how they are perceived by the rest of society. A graph entitled 'Perceptions of How Groups Are Changing American Culture and Way of Life' shows how different groups in America, such as Muslims, gays and lesbians, immigrants, and Tea Party members, are perceived by the rest of society.... [T]he two groups that are perceived by Americans as the biggest threat to our country [beyond both LGBT and Muslims] are atheists and non-religious people, and by a very wide margin. 39% of those surveyed felt that atheists are changing this country for the worse, while only 10% thought they are changing it for the better. Likewise, 31% of those surveyed thought non-religious people are making this country worse, while only 16% thought they are making it better.
"These two groups are far and away the most feared communities measured by the survey, more than undocumented immigrants, members of the Tea Party, or LGBT Americans."
If I were an American atheist I would find this very frightening.
"...perhaps the most shocking finding of the study had to do with American atheists and how they are perceived by the rest of society. A graph entitled 'Perceptions of How Groups Are Changing American Culture and Way of Life' shows how different groups in America, such as Muslims, gays and lesbians, immigrants, and Tea Party members, are perceived by the rest of society.... [T]he two groups that are perceived by Americans as the biggest threat to our country [beyond both LGBT and Muslims] are atheists and non-religious people, and by a very wide margin. 39% of those surveyed felt that atheists are changing this country for the worse, while only 10% thought they are changing it for the better. Likewise, 31% of those surveyed thought non-religious people are making this country worse, while only 16% thought they are making it better.
"These two groups are far and away the most feared communities measured by the survey, more than undocumented immigrants, members of the Tea Party, or LGBT Americans."
If I were an American atheist I would find this very frightening.
Reading the "readers' picks" here, many of which sound shrill and doctrinaire, I realize once again why I am so reluctant to have anything whatsoever to do with movements or organizations of my fellow unbelievers.
1
It's very interesting - in Canada no politician would end their comments with a God Bless Canada. We believe in separation of chuch and state and are probably a few decades ahead of the US in this regard. Europe is similar to Canada. The US is exceptional amongst developed countries in this regard. It's kind of weird, kind of a throwback to the 50's.
12
That's kind of when it really took off here.
3
I learned our anthem with the line "O Canada, glorious and free." (I am 58) God wasn't in there at all.
In 1980 the Canadian government officially changed this line to "God keep our land glorious and free".
Canadian secularists were not happy at all.
In 1980 the Canadian government officially changed this line to "God keep our land glorious and free".
Canadian secularists were not happy at all.
The Constitution protects everyone's personal beliefs. As Americans, our history is rooted in our belief in God. Religion really should have nothing to do with it.
There is a large majority of the American people, who are not Religious, but who have both God centered spiritual and ethical beliefs and practice those beliefs in their everyday lives. Let's not once again, try to force the opinions of a minority of Americans upon the majority of Americans. Keep God in our underpinnings as Americans.
There is a large majority of the American people, who are not Religious, but who have both God centered spiritual and ethical beliefs and practice those beliefs in their everyday lives. Let's not once again, try to force the opinions of a minority of Americans upon the majority of Americans. Keep God in our underpinnings as Americans.
30
Agreed. Being anti-religious does not make one a non-believer. In most class, it means one is against, and fearful of, organized religion. Against the concept of organizing people into groups with priests, rites, creeds, and superstitious beliefs. These groups regard other groups as lesser and as outsiders. We can see this with Sunnis/Shias, but closer to home we have Christian fundamentalists who want to use government to deny others the right to live as they wish.
Lately I have begun to wonder whether we have a "lunatic fringe" or a "sane fringe". The fringe of stupidity has grown enormously, just from my observations of people who don't vote, won't vote, or vote against their own best interests. And if we add the stupid fringe to the lunatic fringe perhaps that's the majority. Seems that way given how many candidates vie with each other in order to appeal to the combination of lunatic and stupid.
Jack,
It is more accurate to say that our history is rooted in a belief that people should be free in how they express their religious beliefs or how they live their lives if they do not believe. It is also founded on respect for minority opinions rather than "the tyranny" of the majority. The expression of religion in public by people running for government office is not something the founders would recognize -- and in a multicultural, secular society like ours, it has no place.
It is more accurate to say that our history is rooted in a belief that people should be free in how they express their religious beliefs or how they live their lives if they do not believe. It is also founded on respect for minority opinions rather than "the tyranny" of the majority. The expression of religion in public by people running for government office is not something the founders would recognize -- and in a multicultural, secular society like ours, it has no place.
Excellent way to remind us all how much the secularists despise the Word. Please take the lead in purging some of the most inspirational language from American history. Secularists should now be appalled at these excerpts from one of our best: "Fondly do we hope, fervently do we pray, that this mighty scourge of war may speedily pass away ... With malice toward none, with charity for all, with firmness in the right as God gives us to see the right, let us strive on to finish the work we are in, to bind up the nation's wounds, to care for him who shall have borne the battle and for his widow and his orphan, to do all which may achieve and cherish a just and lasting peace among ourselves and with all nations."
2
Never have been all that fond of the "Gettysburg Address". Would have preferred a bit more stripping of the possessions, including land, from the southern rebels. Treating them with mercy rather than malice gave them the idea that they had done nothing wrong, that theirs was a "war between the states", not a war to perpetuate the immoral institution of slavery. We are still paying for that error.
3
I'm hearing quite a bit of passive-aggressive malice in your comment, frankly.
1
After six hundred thousand dead. Lincoln, Lee and Davis Christians all made a faith based therfore incorrect decision to end the war? An endless guerrilla war was what the country needed at the time? You obviously gave this much thought perhaps you can give it some pray because you couldn't be more wrong .
Thank God (the one I don't believe in) we finally hear a voice of reason. I can almost forgive the Times for endorsing Clinton.
5
I'd love to live long enough to see political candidates abolish their reference to God--and, not feeling the need to wear that ubiquitous American flag pin.
7
The real irony is that there's a Gospel passage advising believers to keep their religious thoughts private and not to trust people who parade their supposed piety. But apparently the supposed Bible-thumpers never read that passage. Educated Methodists like Hillary Clinton know of the passage and generally observe it, but she's trying to break the myth that only Republicans are religious believers.
2
"Secularists remain politically weak in part because of the reluctance of many, especially the young, to become joiners.”
It's difficult to join a group whose common interest is something they don't have an interest in. An individual church generally has people of different socio-economic backgrounds, but who share a belief system, albeit at different levels.
In essence, religion has a ground game...with marketers, recruiters, a message, and brick and mortar retail centers for customers. current and potential, to visit regularly.
When rationalists start learning from the competition and get a good ground game going, with a message about how reason can help in your daily life, perhaps we'll see 'reasonable' organizations moving into an increasing number of abandoned houses of worship.
It's difficult to join a group whose common interest is something they don't have an interest in. An individual church generally has people of different socio-economic backgrounds, but who share a belief system, albeit at different levels.
In essence, religion has a ground game...with marketers, recruiters, a message, and brick and mortar retail centers for customers. current and potential, to visit regularly.
When rationalists start learning from the competition and get a good ground game going, with a message about how reason can help in your daily life, perhaps we'll see 'reasonable' organizations moving into an increasing number of abandoned houses of worship.
Thank you for bringing this issue into the public conversation. Those of us who have no belief in God or gods and do not belong to any religious community are marginalized when the concluding statement made by many politicians seeks divine intervention rather than reasonable problem solving. Let's stop asking the supernatural to fix life on Earth and focus on what we Americans can do.
5
I consider myself a secular agnostic. I don't see myself at war with those of faith, any faith or those of no faith at all. These is a Republic and people have a right to organize and vote for what they believe in and motivates them.
There is no monopoly on morality and ethics. We need to listen, negotiate and hopefully form positive consensus among enough of us to help better the larger community that we all are a part of.
Unlike anger and reason, reason and faith aren't mutually exclusive
There is no monopoly on morality and ethics. We need to listen, negotiate and hopefully form positive consensus among enough of us to help better the larger community that we all are a part of.
Unlike anger and reason, reason and faith aren't mutually exclusive
3
Congress is denied the power to enact any faith based legislation by the first clause in the Bill of Rights.
When asked by someone if he would ever run for president, Ron Reagan Junior (yes, the son of Nancy and Ronnie Sr.) stated that as a non-believer he wouldn't stand a chance (He might have added that as a former ballet dancer it might have added to that impossibility!)
Too bad; as a realist, he might have made a fine leader of the free world!
Too bad; as a realist, he might have made a fine leader of the free world!
4
The same could be said about ownership of guns. So tired of an amendment to the constitution being interpreted to mean I should believe in a religion and I should own a gun. I would add that I am also tired of the continual intonation of "our forefathers," before these categorical references to what the constitution says. The truth is our forefathers would be appalled by the level of thought in our current political class and no way Trump or a Rubio or a Cruz would be invited to Monticello.
3
Where does "reason" take you. To the big bang about 13-15 billion years ago. Freud, the rationalist, taught that the Golden Rule was needed for civilization.
Darwin using reason, reasoned (after observation) reasoned to evolution. These are just a few of the accomplishments of reason. None of them prelude a religious belief--at least as far as recent Popes thought.
Darwin using reason, reasoned (after observation) reasoned to evolution. These are just a few of the accomplishments of reason. None of them prelude a religious belief--at least as far as recent Popes thought.
Sheesh northcountry; please, edit your comment for syntax and typos and repost it.
A lifelong friend told me he thought it was God's will that he had been nearly financially ruined by an unscrupulous actor because it had drove him closer to God. He asked me what I thought. I told him I thought his misfortune was due to the ill will of the person who ripped him off, that he would be wiser for the experience, that letting go of any residual resentment was advisable for a peaceful mind, and that he could rebuild by using his own will. I've reached out a couple of times over the past year because I considered our friendship deeply valuable. He never spoke to me again.
9
Good example Tom; that's the problem with religion, as opposed to God. Religion is exclusive and builds walls, while God is inclusive and tears down walls.
There's a fine line between superstition and oppression. Americans won't truly be free until we're free of government-sponsored endorsements of religion. Let the believers make their own path without feeling obligated to inflict their gods and monsters on the rest of us.
4
Thank you for expressing these thoughts so concisely. We ignore the separation of church and state at our own peril. I find it especially egregious that "God bless America" seems to have become a required platitude for politicians. Especially galling to me is the implied corollary. Are these sanctimonious folks saying to hell with the rest of the world? How un-Christian!
We are not all members of a religious group, let alone Christians, in this country. I find it frightening when any religious group wants to impose its beliefs on a whole society. Extremists are extremists, no matter what rationale they use.
We are not all members of a religious group, let alone Christians, in this country. I find it frightening when any religious group wants to impose its beliefs on a whole society. Extremists are extremists, no matter what rationale they use.
2
A good shared project to get behind would give substance to the coalition Ms. Jacoby calls for. Such a project would be a drive to end the tax-exempt status of religious organizations. The Constitution prohibits government establishment of religion. Nowhere does it say churches should be free of taxes. Accomplishing this goal would be a boon for strapped state budgets and would free us atheists and agnostics from having to support religion indirectly with our in-place-of tax dollars, which is an outrage.
.
.
2
An "establishment of religion" is a faith-based belief. It is not a building or an organization.