The economic picture is better. Really, for WHO???
Not us! I live in California. Gas here is still $3.00/gal. We have not had raises in years and years. Rent goes up 12% a year and wages do not budge.
We are sick and tired of being lied to, cheated and stolen from. This is why we are mad as hell. And you live in your moronic bubble.
Not us! I live in California. Gas here is still $3.00/gal. We have not had raises in years and years. Rent goes up 12% a year and wages do not budge.
We are sick and tired of being lied to, cheated and stolen from. This is why we are mad as hell. And you live in your moronic bubble.
57
It is interesting the way Mr. Douthat uses language to color his reader's perceptions.
"Obamacare is limping along without an imminent death spiral, and health care costs aren’t rising as fast as feared." I would say that the AAC is roaring along and has significantly slowed the pace of health care inflation.
Oh, if only the rabid right had supported Romneycare...er, I mean Obamacare instead of opposing it........
"Obamacare is limping along without an imminent death spiral, and health care costs aren’t rising as fast as feared." I would say that the AAC is roaring along and has significantly slowed the pace of health care inflation.
Oh, if only the rabid right had supported Romneycare...er, I mean Obamacare instead of opposing it........
64
If George Wallace were alive to witness what the GOP has become, I think he'd simply comment, "There ... now that wasn't so hard, was it."
Douthat: you were born forty years too late.
Douthat: you were born forty years too late.
16
Feel the Bern Douthat, we are with you. We are trying to get rid of Corporate Welfare.
19
Decadence? I don't think that word means what you think it does.
18
"With Trump, the message is crude, explicit, deliberately over the top. Make America Great Again."
Did you really mean that? "Make America Great Again" is a message that is crude and over the top? What would you prefer? "Keep America Headed Toward Oblivion"?
You are part of the problem, Douthat.
Did you really mean that? "Make America Great Again" is a message that is crude and over the top? What would you prefer? "Keep America Headed Toward Oblivion"?
You are part of the problem, Douthat.
12
This era of post 9-11 terrorism has everyone confused and scared, full of anxiety. How do we win a war when the enemy is a group of connected gangs that work in the shadows? No stripes on their uniforms, no formal hierarchy or code, just gangs of displaced men willing to do anything to destroy your country. How do you win WWII-style? How do you win Trump-style? Trump has reassured everyone by talking tough--people like that. Ironically, that will not win this war. It's a new era.
So Douthat says there are their are better pathways--name them. Rubio? Christie?
The right pathway is more Obama-type leadership. He wisely inflicted sanctions on Russia after Crimea, smartly lifted sanctions on Iran after negotiations. He has used ground force sparingly in favor of drone attacks in the Middle East. He has not gone all-in against Assad. He has not gone at ISIS Trump-style, whatever that is. Obama has led us well in foreign affairs. Not the "mission accomplished" spin of the Bush era. Obama knows this is a marathon.
Right now Hillary Clinton is teed up to carry that Obama torch. She will keep the steady pace, the patient pace, the wise pace. The answer is certainly not coming from any of the hawkish GOP candidates. Cruz, Christie, Rubio--they spin the same tough talk as Trump.
I think Douthat wants Kasich or Jeb to rise--those are the "pathways" he is winking at. But if that does not pan out, if Trump or Cruz get the nod--could we expect an HRC endorsement from Douthat?
So Douthat says there are their are better pathways--name them. Rubio? Christie?
The right pathway is more Obama-type leadership. He wisely inflicted sanctions on Russia after Crimea, smartly lifted sanctions on Iran after negotiations. He has used ground force sparingly in favor of drone attacks in the Middle East. He has not gone all-in against Assad. He has not gone at ISIS Trump-style, whatever that is. Obama has led us well in foreign affairs. Not the "mission accomplished" spin of the Bush era. Obama knows this is a marathon.
Right now Hillary Clinton is teed up to carry that Obama torch. She will keep the steady pace, the patient pace, the wise pace. The answer is certainly not coming from any of the hawkish GOP candidates. Cruz, Christie, Rubio--they spin the same tough talk as Trump.
I think Douthat wants Kasich or Jeb to rise--those are the "pathways" he is winking at. But if that does not pan out, if Trump or Cruz get the nod--could we expect an HRC endorsement from Douthat?
19
Ross, a few columns ago, you assured us Trump would not be the Republican nominee.
20
I agrees with Josh...seems like many of the elite pundit class are clueless.
Yes ,most of the indicators that Mr. Douthat refers to seem to point at economic 'improvement' ..a sort of mirage I'd say.
As Josh points out , many of us experience stagnant wages, arrested equity growth, inflation of basic living expenses and a flailing political class.
I don't think that Democrats are ALL about gay-marriage.or whatever ( altho it is important to stand for social justice ! ) ...they are for banking reform, higher minimum wages , stalwart defense of the environment, more access to higher education, tax code reform to return overseas profits etc etc ... but the Congress majority sleeps.
Obama, in my new, is a very intelligent and reasonable guy, but America seems to have ignored the opportunity and progressive ideas he has presented.
Anyway, the Sanders /Trump phenom, to me, just indicates that a lot of Americans are overboard with their extreme ideologies or just plain apathetic.
Yes ,most of the indicators that Mr. Douthat refers to seem to point at economic 'improvement' ..a sort of mirage I'd say.
As Josh points out , many of us experience stagnant wages, arrested equity growth, inflation of basic living expenses and a flailing political class.
I don't think that Democrats are ALL about gay-marriage.or whatever ( altho it is important to stand for social justice ! ) ...they are for banking reform, higher minimum wages , stalwart defense of the environment, more access to higher education, tax code reform to return overseas profits etc etc ... but the Congress majority sleeps.
Obama, in my new, is a very intelligent and reasonable guy, but America seems to have ignored the opportunity and progressive ideas he has presented.
Anyway, the Sanders /Trump phenom, to me, just indicates that a lot of Americans are overboard with their extreme ideologies or just plain apathetic.
13
What I like about both Sanders and Trump is they both speak their mind, and neither wants to turn America into a theocracy like Cruz, Rubio, Huckabee and Santorum seem to want to do. And I sure do NOT want another Clinton or Bush!
32
Conservative media, and its keep-the-head-low amen corner in the MSM continue to delude the public as to the way things REALLY were in the good old days and how they are today.
I owned a service station in the Bronx in 1985. I have a picture of me standing at my gas pumps. The sign on the top of the pump says "$1.44".
There are gas stations in my neighborhood today, 30 years later, selling gas at $1.65/gal.
Inflation-non existent to the point where frustrated conservatives say this is a BAD thing.
The deficit never became the great threat to western civilization the Tea Party in 2010 said it would be. Neither did currency debasement or QE.
People today who work for profitable GM and Chrysler have a visceral hatred of Obama, even though he was directly responsible for saving their jobs.
We have avoided 6 or 7 wars that a "President" McCain would have us mired into.
The effective income tax rate on the top 1% HAS been increased from 16% in 2012 to about 22% today.
The UR is 5% and conservatives call that a BAD thing.
The Dow has more than doubled in the past seven years. But BEWARE!
Seventy months of private sector job growth.
We just saw spectacular photos of Pluto. Freakin' Pluto!
Oh, and how is that ebola pandemic in this country going?
And STILL conservatives are not satisfied, preferring instead where we came from in pick your decade.
I owned a service station in the Bronx in 1985. I have a picture of me standing at my gas pumps. The sign on the top of the pump says "$1.44".
There are gas stations in my neighborhood today, 30 years later, selling gas at $1.65/gal.
Inflation-non existent to the point where frustrated conservatives say this is a BAD thing.
The deficit never became the great threat to western civilization the Tea Party in 2010 said it would be. Neither did currency debasement or QE.
People today who work for profitable GM and Chrysler have a visceral hatred of Obama, even though he was directly responsible for saving their jobs.
We have avoided 6 or 7 wars that a "President" McCain would have us mired into.
The effective income tax rate on the top 1% HAS been increased from 16% in 2012 to about 22% today.
The UR is 5% and conservatives call that a BAD thing.
The Dow has more than doubled in the past seven years. But BEWARE!
Seventy months of private sector job growth.
We just saw spectacular photos of Pluto. Freakin' Pluto!
Oh, and how is that ebola pandemic in this country going?
And STILL conservatives are not satisfied, preferring instead where we came from in pick your decade.
45
Valid points. Here is one vote for Mr. Douthat's next column to be " The Pathways up from Decadence."
If David Brooks can split up his column into two weeks, you can too!
If David Brooks can split up his column into two weeks, you can too!
1
Ross says it is all about decadence! Suuuuuprise suuuprise.
Including his own conformist decadence I wonder? Since he is addicted to his inner decadence demons I don't know if he grasps he is part of this decadence thingeee. Probably not. Harvard.
Including his own conformist decadence I wonder? Since he is addicted to his inner decadence demons I don't know if he grasps he is part of this decadence thingeee. Probably not. Harvard.
4
"The economic picture is better than it was in 2012, when Republican primary voters settled for Mitt ". Only if you are a minimum wage worker. Lots of those jobs are available. But if you are middle class and worry that your job is next, you do not see the economy positively. And this is why sanders and trump are doing well.
12
Considering conservatives are in the business of recycling philosophies - the Bible, the Bible, the Bible and did I say - the Bible? - this should be your comfort zone, Douthat.
10
It's the corporate oligarchy, stupid.
19
If you are going to use the socialist label for Bernie Sanders, please us the corporate socialist label for Republicans.
35
Ross, you wrote, "Privilege: Harvard and the Education of the Ruling Class." And you yourself went to Harvard. So you got a bit of a unique point of view. But I really think you need to get the hell out of DC for a while. Go back up near home. Spend 3 months in Bridgeport living off $200/week. Then write about the 'decadence' of the era. Or pick any other rotted out mill down destroyed by nearly a half-century of the Washington Consensus.
These cities are as common in North America as in Europe. Detroit and Cleveland, to Newcastle and Glasgow to Bochum and Dortmund to Montpellier and Lomme...take your pick. While the ruling class lives it up on a Davos ski vacation, lives in these cities, for the families and people of these cities, keeps getting worse every single year. And physical mobility is down. People are not moving as often as they used to. Townies stuck in a dead end town that will never, ever get ahead and never, ever get any help from the free market. Google will not be opening an office in Downtown Flint anytime soon.
But the thing is, there are people either constrained by market conditions and low skills / abilities stuck in cities and other rural towns with just as little hope like this all over the first world. And just as many educated and able people are connected to these sinking places by non-market bonds--friendship and family--that they can't leave. The rebellion is more material than spiritual.
These cities are as common in North America as in Europe. Detroit and Cleveland, to Newcastle and Glasgow to Bochum and Dortmund to Montpellier and Lomme...take your pick. While the ruling class lives it up on a Davos ski vacation, lives in these cities, for the families and people of these cities, keeps getting worse every single year. And physical mobility is down. People are not moving as often as they used to. Townies stuck in a dead end town that will never, ever get ahead and never, ever get any help from the free market. Google will not be opening an office in Downtown Flint anytime soon.
But the thing is, there are people either constrained by market conditions and low skills / abilities stuck in cities and other rural towns with just as little hope like this all over the first world. And just as many educated and able people are connected to these sinking places by non-market bonds--friendship and family--that they can't leave. The rebellion is more material than spiritual.
27
If you plant corn, watermelons don't grow. The Republican Party, that is, "conservatives," planted Trump, and Trump grew.
I'm an "older American." I "grew up amid the post-World War II boom." Why don't I support an incipient Mussolini? Why don't I support a socialist who doesn't support gun control and who had to be taught that black lives matter? Why don't I hate all Muslims?
Douthat's column implies that Americans are acting rationally in their support of Trump. They are not. They are acting like people act all over the world--fearfully, hatefully, superstitiously, and without thought.
I'm an "older American." I "grew up amid the post-World War II boom." Why don't I support an incipient Mussolini? Why don't I support a socialist who doesn't support gun control and who had to be taught that black lives matter? Why don't I hate all Muslims?
Douthat's column implies that Americans are acting rationally in their support of Trump. They are not. They are acting like people act all over the world--fearfully, hatefully, superstitiously, and without thought.
19
Ross posits that post WWII boomers saw business and government as "Effective and patriotic,rather than sclerotic and corrupt...he speaks of "vaulting optimism"
What is Ross Douthat talking about? Did MLK, Malcolm X, Caesar Chavez, Gays, and women's rights activists share that belief? What about the millions of nameless others in the shadows, suffering in the reality of a racist, sexist,homophobic,society? I hope he doesn't think "Leave it to Beaver" or "Father Knows Best"were the paradigms for the typical American minority family. What Ross has unconsciously revealed, is the insidious Conservative mindset which is blinds itself to the "other"in whatever context is being referenced. He pontificates about today, and glibly characterizes post WWII Boomer America with words like "effective","patriotic","vaulting optimism" illuminating for all to see, the endemic decadence and parochialism of Conservative thought.
What is Ross Douthat talking about? Did MLK, Malcolm X, Caesar Chavez, Gays, and women's rights activists share that belief? What about the millions of nameless others in the shadows, suffering in the reality of a racist, sexist,homophobic,society? I hope he doesn't think "Leave it to Beaver" or "Father Knows Best"were the paradigms for the typical American minority family. What Ross has unconsciously revealed, is the insidious Conservative mindset which is blinds itself to the "other"in whatever context is being referenced. He pontificates about today, and glibly characterizes post WWII Boomer America with words like "effective","patriotic","vaulting optimism" illuminating for all to see, the endemic decadence and parochialism of Conservative thought.
17
So. I guess Ross Douthat is voting for Clinton.
17
Mr. Douthat neglects to mention that, while he has a fairly reasonable, level-headed response to the success of Obamacare and by extension the other successful social welfare programs in the U.S., he is a member of a party and a conservative movement that likes to pretend that these programs are evidence of catastrophic decline. They do so in order to foment the very anger that Mr. Douthat identifies and…hmmmm…doesn't quite understand. He's ignoring the elephant in the room—namely, the G.O.P.
26
Bernie's supporters are angry -- NOT. The Times is just plain wrong in its lead stories on the home page. Ross, there is no rational basis for your assertion that Bernie message is why not socialism.
Bernie's supporters are weary -- DEFINITELY. America has suffered through 35 years of escalating conservative policies that favor the wealthy and corporate interests at the expense of the interests of ordinary Americans. We are tired of corporate media and its false equivalence. Bernie's supporters are not responding to fear and racist dog whistles. There is no reasonable basis for equating Bernie's supporters with Trump's supporters.
Bernie's supporters believe that America IS great -- DEFINITELY. We live in the greatest nation in history. We know that the US in a nation with unprecedented freedom, wealth and power. We do not believe that America is no longer great or needs Bernie to restore is greatness.
Bernie supporters do not want to live in the Norway, Sweden or Denmark of either today or the50's . We love our unique and exceptional America. We believe that Bernie's platform is a vision for America. Most of us would support an Elizabeth Warren or any other candidate who articulates the values and policies that Bernie articulates. The truth is that Elizabeth Warren is not a candidate and Hillary Clinton is just another establishment candidate.
Bernie's supporters are weary -- DEFINITELY. America has suffered through 35 years of escalating conservative policies that favor the wealthy and corporate interests at the expense of the interests of ordinary Americans. We are tired of corporate media and its false equivalence. Bernie's supporters are not responding to fear and racist dog whistles. There is no reasonable basis for equating Bernie's supporters with Trump's supporters.
Bernie's supporters believe that America IS great -- DEFINITELY. We live in the greatest nation in history. We know that the US in a nation with unprecedented freedom, wealth and power. We do not believe that America is no longer great or needs Bernie to restore is greatness.
Bernie supporters do not want to live in the Norway, Sweden or Denmark of either today or the50's . We love our unique and exceptional America. We believe that Bernie's platform is a vision for America. Most of us would support an Elizabeth Warren or any other candidate who articulates the values and policies that Bernie articulates. The truth is that Elizabeth Warren is not a candidate and Hillary Clinton is just another establishment candidate.
47
It's so simple. The GOP depends on the white Southern racists and feeds their anger and frustration, in order to deflect them from where their anger really belongs: oligarchs pushing tax cuts and trickle up. They are now feeling like the Republicans haven't done anything for them, and are instead allowing things to be done for THOSE PEOPLE, including, of all things, letting one of them be President. The establishment didn't put people of color in their place.
18
The pathway from decadence cannot by defintion be lead by a decadent. The NYT Editorial Board just endorsed one.
28
Mr. Douthat, tear down your wall. Open up the mind.
You write, "A society disillusioned with existing religions and ideologies, but lacking new sources of meaning to take their place."
The ideas are out there, some people cannot seem to adapt to social change. BTW, regulated capitalism and social programs can coexist.
You write, "A society disillusioned with existing religions and ideologies, but lacking new sources of meaning to take their place."
The ideas are out there, some people cannot seem to adapt to social change. BTW, regulated capitalism and social programs can coexist.
24
I have to say, for once, I agree with Mr. Douhat. Present is not satisfactory, but it COULD get worse, a lot worse.
3
Mr. Douthat discounts President Obama’s substantial accomplishments (low unemployment, more equitable national health care insurance, gains in the stock market following the precipitous G. W. Bush terrors), and he concludes by calling this era "decadent." Decadent how, exactly? Why? Because gay marriage has been legalized? Because women in the US have access to birth control and so produce fewer children? Because dem young folk love dem computers (a sign of the “technological progress” Mr. Douthat deems “disappointing”) and aren’t going to church enough and so suffer angst? These are not signs of DECADENCE. These are signs of progress, and if the retrograde Republicans want to fight it ... good luck. Bernie Sanders does not think or act like Donald Trump, nor does he arouse the same passions in voters. He challenges citizens to be generous. Trump and Cruz invite people, taunt people, to be mean, judgmental, and stingy.
23
Everyone I talk to seem scared to death. The billionaires own everything including our Government. The homeland security listens in to your phone calls and reads your emails. We have been in War for 15 years and there will no peace apparently ever again. Wall Street owns the top Democratic candidate. Climate change is threatening to make our planet uninhabitable.
Scared is not the word you're looking for. Screwed is the better choice of words. Let's keep writing articles that matter Mr. Douthat you're doing awesome!
Scared is not the word you're looking for. Screwed is the better choice of words. Let's keep writing articles that matter Mr. Douthat you're doing awesome!
11
The French revolution occurred, not because it was the worst of times, but becomes times were improving but NOT ALL BOATS were rising with the tide.
We have Trump and Sanders as candidates precisely because in the waning years of the GW Bush administration, the grandees of Wall Street devised a plan under which the Federal Government would bail out only a percentage of the nation, not the nation as a whole.
The chickens are coming home to roost.
We have Trump and Sanders as candidates precisely because in the waning years of the GW Bush administration, the grandees of Wall Street devised a plan under which the Federal Government would bail out only a percentage of the nation, not the nation as a whole.
The chickens are coming home to roost.
18
Jonah Goldberg on Herr Trumpf: "a boorish and childish lout".
I'm stealing that, it will be a welcome alternative to my usual "ignorant buffoon".
If anyone didn't think our society was decadent, Herr Trumpf is the living proof.
I'm stealing that, it will be a welcome alternative to my usual "ignorant buffoon".
If anyone didn't think our society was decadent, Herr Trumpf is the living proof.
9
“Conservatives” of all stripes are in wild, self-destructive rebellion because their various surrogate candidates - and the more extreme the better - are finally giving demagogic public voice to their own long-supressed feelings of prejudice and victimhood. Ironically, it is not some form of supposed modern decadence which they are reacting against. It is precisely the opposite. It is a bitter, ignorant longing for the all-too-real decadence of social, religious, political and governmental bias, discrimination, prejudice, misogeny, classism, authoritarianism, etc. etc. etc. which pock-mark that supposed American “golden age” which GOP candidate promise they will return them to. As for the the Left’s excitement with Sanders, in Bernie is seen a way to finally move out, up and beyond the co-opted Democrat establishment and fulfill the thwarted promise of the best visions of Roosevelt, Kennedy, Johnson, Carter and, yes, Obama.
10
Ross, nice try.
Like everyone else at the NYT, you're trying to peddle the story that Donald Trump is completely unreasonable, and Bernie Sanders is completely unelectable.
But, here's the thing.
If an unreasonable guy runs against an unelectable guy, simple logic dictates the outcome.
The unreasonable guy will win. Just parse the sentence.
You all think this is unreasonable.
But - as G B Shaw said:
"...The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man...
The irony in this, of course:
Who's been arguing recently that Bernie is unreasonable.
Perhaps someone whose realized (they) are increasingly unelectable?
PS - The first time Shaw ran for office, he ran as a Progressive.
Like everyone else at the NYT, you're trying to peddle the story that Donald Trump is completely unreasonable, and Bernie Sanders is completely unelectable.
But, here's the thing.
If an unreasonable guy runs against an unelectable guy, simple logic dictates the outcome.
The unreasonable guy will win. Just parse the sentence.
You all think this is unreasonable.
But - as G B Shaw said:
"...The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man...
The irony in this, of course:
Who's been arguing recently that Bernie is unreasonable.
Perhaps someone whose realized (they) are increasingly unelectable?
PS - The first time Shaw ran for office, he ran as a Progressive.
4
Ross, here's my take.
The Republicans have focused so much on STOPPING effective governance that they haven't developed a coherent message, as we can see.
And Bernie is the 'beneficiary', as the Republicans promote Bernie by slandering Hillary.
For the right it's all about destruction. And consistent with that the gullible left is being suckered.
Since the right can't win on its own merits, the only way to 'win' is to destroy Hillary and get the left to nominate a joke.
The Right is playing 3d chess while the Left is playing beginner checkers.
The Republicans have focused so much on STOPPING effective governance that they haven't developed a coherent message, as we can see.
And Bernie is the 'beneficiary', as the Republicans promote Bernie by slandering Hillary.
For the right it's all about destruction. And consistent with that the gullible left is being suckered.
Since the right can't win on its own merits, the only way to 'win' is to destroy Hillary and get the left to nominate a joke.
The Right is playing 3d chess while the Left is playing beginner checkers.
7
Establishment politicians are not making headway with people who work for a living because they all...in their owen different ways...want to take from working people and provide corporate welfare to the rich and ordinary welfare to the very poor...including people who came to this country illegally, enticed by the prospect of jobs promised by the Chamber of Commerce types who want the cheap labor of these people but do not want them to enter our body politic. Working people are more fed up with the "establishment" than any time since FDR was president.
10
"The economic picture is better than it was in 2012"? For whom? The millions of Americans who've lost their careers and are trying to scrape by on part-time jobs, if they can even get them? (No easy matter in an age of online 'personality' tests being used to screen applicants for the most humble, low-paying positions. Can you believe that you'll be asked 'If you could be any animal, which would you choose to be?' when applying for a fast food job?) Those who've taken our fearless leaders' advice and chosen a STEM major, only to find that, thanks to H-1B, they're virtually unemployable unless they're lite graduates from elite schools with virtually perfect transcripts and fashion sense, facial feature and even physiques to match?
"When the other fellow loses his job, it's a recession. When you lose yours, it's a depression." - Harry S Truman. Guess what we're in, for all practical purposes, now.
"When the other fellow loses his job, it's a recession. When you lose yours, it's a depression." - Harry S Truman. Guess what we're in, for all practical purposes, now.
15
We are already a socialist country except the Socialism works in the wrong direction. Here in the United States, we privatize profits and socialize losses. The most recent examples are the Wall Street bailout and the auto industry rescue. Rob from the poor and give to the rich.
Communities pay millions-- if not billions--to sports franchises by way of stadiums and tax incentives. And they pick up and move if they can get a bigger taxpayer-funded handout in another community.
And on....and on.....
Why do columnists in the NY Times use the word "socialist" as if it meant "terrorist?"
Communities pay millions-- if not billions--to sports franchises by way of stadiums and tax incentives. And they pick up and move if they can get a bigger taxpayer-funded handout in another community.
And on....and on.....
Why do columnists in the NY Times use the word "socialist" as if it meant "terrorist?"
35
Mr. Douthat,
Lately I find myself agreeing with you. One of us is evolving.
Lately I find myself agreeing with you. One of us is evolving.
4
To cite Bernie Sanders reason for running as "Why not socialism?", as you stated in this column is such an incredibly shallow interpretation of his candidacy that I must ascribe malicious intent. Bernie offers something that no other candidate does: truth.
You may not agree with what he wants to do, but he speaks the truth. Is universal health care socialism? How about life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness? Does healthcare fit in there? Is having Wall St. not rake in billions and billions every year on the backs of duped investors and mortgage holders socialism?
Let's not have anymore columns comparing Sanders and Trump.
You may not agree with what he wants to do, but he speaks the truth. Is universal health care socialism? How about life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness? Does healthcare fit in there? Is having Wall St. not rake in billions and billions every year on the backs of duped investors and mortgage holders socialism?
Let's not have anymore columns comparing Sanders and Trump.
35
I believe Douthat meant "decaying" rather than "decadent," which implies bored, luxurious indulgence, which could not apply to the 99%.
10
Millions of Americans are in hock up to their eyeballs. There is no realistic hope that they will ever be able to get out from under the eight ball. Naturally they will follow anyone who promises them pie-in-the-sky.
8
This Op-Ed does what has been missing, he looks at the question , "Why?". So much of the news coverage has been about personalities and or other petty issues. One article in a past NYT was headlined, "Donald Trump Laments Loss of Aerosol Sprays to Frame His Hair." Mr. Douthat may play down foreign issues such as the lack of recognition of the dangers ISIS but for a lot of people, this has created a feeling apprehension. This was brought to a big concern when Mr. Obama stated the force he labeled JV was contained only 24 hours before Paris. Racial tensions seem to be deteriorating. We do not seem to have a way to screen out potential terrorist who could be among the Syrian refugees, The NSA surveillance of ordinary citizens continues continues. All of these float over us like a dark cloud. We need people like Mr Douthat to try to understand why Sanders and Trump have had such an impact and then, let the chips fall where they may.
3
Mr. Douthat should have dragged his fuzzy-headed and preposterous attempt to link Western decadence with voters backing Trump and Sanders straight from his desktop to the trash.
Then he should have started anew, beginning with these two words: Citizens United.
Then he should have started anew, beginning with these two words: Citizens United.
17
And the elephant in the room crosses his legs and remains comfortable: How are there so many people willing to listen to the incredibly stupid, vapid, cretinous blatherings of this cycle's candidates?
3
Ross- you didn't answer your own question; why now?
As soon as you asked I thought 'why not now? Now is as good a time as any.'
Those of us who live down here among the Trumpistas and Bern-feelers have known this for many years. Democrats and Republicans come and go, as different as different can be, but the result is often the same. When there are big tax cuts, well it's just a few hundred a year for us. Big benefit programs? Looks like the same few hundred. This is true for whites, blacks, and Latins. Check out any diverse neighborhood in America where people work for hourly wages or are considered exempt employees working 55 hour weeks for $35,000 a year.
I wish all the pundits and elitists well as they construct this modern world that the rest of us will have to live in.
Maybe they'll get it right this time.
As soon as you asked I thought 'why not now? Now is as good a time as any.'
Those of us who live down here among the Trumpistas and Bern-feelers have known this for many years. Democrats and Republicans come and go, as different as different can be, but the result is often the same. When there are big tax cuts, well it's just a few hundred a year for us. Big benefit programs? Looks like the same few hundred. This is true for whites, blacks, and Latins. Check out any diverse neighborhood in America where people work for hourly wages or are considered exempt employees working 55 hour weeks for $35,000 a year.
I wish all the pundits and elitists well as they construct this modern world that the rest of us will have to live in.
Maybe they'll get it right this time.
8
Capitalism has been the vulture sucking us dry for decades. Eisenhower warned against the "military/ industrial/complex when he left office & he knew what he was talking about. Millionaires run this country & have no idea how most of us struggle. I hope Sanders wins; he will at least try to do what's right for the country, not Wall St.
10
Mr. Douthat, getting in touch with your inner Republican speechwriter? Decadence is much more visceral and resonant than Politically Correct, now hackneyed and bloated. Good addition to our political discourse. Now it means something other than dense, cloying chocolate cake. However it shares with the cake a ton of empty calories and heady sugar rush gone nuclear.
The fact is evangelicals and Iowa don't count for much in the grander scheme except for political pundits who fantasize about changing history. Whatever happens in Iowa will become a defining moment because that's what fortune-tellers peddle and why people listen to soothsayers. But Iowa won't validate the rebellion seen in your crystal ball. It won't stop us from seeing how Republicans are stark naked despite the new suits you claim they wear.
About 20 years ago people started seeing subliminal images of the devil and ghouls in alcohol ads and bottle labels. The images were spotted in ice cubes and whiskey glasses. Soon everyone found Satan staring back at them bobbing in a shot glass. If anyone didn't, they didn't admit it. The herd was moving and risk of being trampled was high.
Things are unsettled and restive not because of decadence or Trump and Sanders are two riders of the apocalypse. It's because the Republicans have wrecked everything and now need a rebellion to hide their damage and do more.
Decadence is a Republican cake. Causes heart disease. We're not buying it.
The fact is evangelicals and Iowa don't count for much in the grander scheme except for political pundits who fantasize about changing history. Whatever happens in Iowa will become a defining moment because that's what fortune-tellers peddle and why people listen to soothsayers. But Iowa won't validate the rebellion seen in your crystal ball. It won't stop us from seeing how Republicans are stark naked despite the new suits you claim they wear.
About 20 years ago people started seeing subliminal images of the devil and ghouls in alcohol ads and bottle labels. The images were spotted in ice cubes and whiskey glasses. Soon everyone found Satan staring back at them bobbing in a shot glass. If anyone didn't, they didn't admit it. The herd was moving and risk of being trampled was high.
Things are unsettled and restive not because of decadence or Trump and Sanders are two riders of the apocalypse. It's because the Republicans have wrecked everything and now need a rebellion to hide their damage and do more.
Decadence is a Republican cake. Causes heart disease. We're not buying it.
6
"The deficit has fallen a bit"
"A bit"!? Over 60% and over a trillion dollars is "a bit"? Talk about dishonest. Wasn't this the biggest issue ever for republicans?
"Health care costs aren't rising as fast as feared"
That fear was created by YOUR party Ross. They were the ones who made up lies about death panels and death spirals and called it a government takeover, despite it actually being the Heritage Foundation/Mitt Romney conservative market based healthcare plan. Anyone who wasn't infected by the propaganda campaign your party ran against the law for the last seven years knew that the law was designed to bend the cost curve down.
"Inflation is extraordinarily low"
Don't bother mentioning here that nearly every republican politician and economist predicted run away Weimar inflation. It seems you'd prefer us not remember that.
"Out of wedlock births are no longer rising. Abortion rates have fallen"
Of course, what Ross leaves out is that all the "morality" metrics he cares about, out of wedlock birth, teenage pregnancy, divorce, STDs, etc. etc., are highest in deep red republican states, and lowest in blue states. He has never mentioned this fact, in any column, because it completely destroys his argument that religion and republican values will fix things, and that lose values and a lack of a religion makes things worse.
"A bit"!? Over 60% and over a trillion dollars is "a bit"? Talk about dishonest. Wasn't this the biggest issue ever for republicans?
"Health care costs aren't rising as fast as feared"
That fear was created by YOUR party Ross. They were the ones who made up lies about death panels and death spirals and called it a government takeover, despite it actually being the Heritage Foundation/Mitt Romney conservative market based healthcare plan. Anyone who wasn't infected by the propaganda campaign your party ran against the law for the last seven years knew that the law was designed to bend the cost curve down.
"Inflation is extraordinarily low"
Don't bother mentioning here that nearly every republican politician and economist predicted run away Weimar inflation. It seems you'd prefer us not remember that.
"Out of wedlock births are no longer rising. Abortion rates have fallen"
Of course, what Ross leaves out is that all the "morality" metrics he cares about, out of wedlock birth, teenage pregnancy, divorce, STDs, etc. etc., are highest in deep red republican states, and lowest in blue states. He has never mentioned this fact, in any column, because it completely destroys his argument that religion and republican values will fix things, and that lose values and a lack of a religion makes things worse.
32
Mildred: Hey Johnny, what are you rebelling against?
Johnny: Whadda you got?
Mr. Douthat, in what can only be a self-realized moment of desperation hopes by adding a pinch of Democrats to the festering conservative stew it somehow won't stink as bad. It still stinks. The conservative movement, the "right", the GOP, evangelicals, Christians, Tea Bag Party, Real Americans or whatever label they whine under, rant and rave that anything resembling a progressive, forward-looking direction is the work of Satan himself, or at least Hitler reincarnated as a black, Muslim president. They've heard for seven long years how the apocalyptic end is near from the full chorus of the right, stretching from Beck to Fox to the WSJ and even our dear Mr. Douthat, and now the lemmings of an electorate have fully embraced rhetoric as truth. Gays destroyed marriage. Mexicans took all the jobs. Liberals killed god. Obama wants the guns. Only unregulated corporate monopolies can save the union, where values replace virtues, fiction trumps facts, and Adam and Eve ride dinosaurs.
Mr. Douthat, you helped create this narrow, hateful, wholly-ignorant world-view, and you will not dump it at our doorstep. This ugly baby is all yours.
Johnny: Whadda you got?
Mr. Douthat, in what can only be a self-realized moment of desperation hopes by adding a pinch of Democrats to the festering conservative stew it somehow won't stink as bad. It still stinks. The conservative movement, the "right", the GOP, evangelicals, Christians, Tea Bag Party, Real Americans or whatever label they whine under, rant and rave that anything resembling a progressive, forward-looking direction is the work of Satan himself, or at least Hitler reincarnated as a black, Muslim president. They've heard for seven long years how the apocalyptic end is near from the full chorus of the right, stretching from Beck to Fox to the WSJ and even our dear Mr. Douthat, and now the lemmings of an electorate have fully embraced rhetoric as truth. Gays destroyed marriage. Mexicans took all the jobs. Liberals killed god. Obama wants the guns. Only unregulated corporate monopolies can save the union, where values replace virtues, fiction trumps facts, and Adam and Eve ride dinosaurs.
Mr. Douthat, you helped create this narrow, hateful, wholly-ignorant world-view, and you will not dump it at our doorstep. This ugly baby is all yours.
29
But that still leaves the question: for whom do I vote or do I not vote at all? Is it possible that a political superhero will fly in at the eleventh hour and give us that "aha!" moment?
1
Ross, people don't vote to advance the DJIA or improve the poetry used to describe America's social condition. They tend to vote, un-cynically enough, to get the kind of leadership they feel in their guts is right. Now, put that in your pipe and smoke it, and your eyes may begin to open.
3
Do really think that most European countries and Canada are "welfare states'? They are social democracies-the government does not control the means of production but does not allow unfettered capitalism( regulations. etc) and treats its citizens as valued members of the nations with national health care and social programs. The ACA here does NOT make the USA a welfare state. Why doo I suspect you are an honored guest at the Koch Brothers oh-so-secret plutocratic weekends? Do you really wish for a country with no social safety net, no minimum wage, no clean air and water laws and no decent infrastructure? Pope Francis is a forgiving sort, but it may be time for an excommunication.
10
Here's one simple reason why 2016 is turning out differently than 2012: Hillary lacks the political skills of President Obama. She's super-smart and sounds smooth every now and then. But her speech is often stilted and almost robotic, which draws attention to her perceived weaknesses.
1
If President Obama had sent just a few bank CEO's to jail, rather than golfing with them, much of this anger would have been mitigated. It would have been simple justice but also supremely symbolic. Eric Holder and his oleaginous Renfield - Lanny Breuer ran out the clock and then went right back to their jobs at Covington & Burling. Absolutely disgusting and the perfect illustration of why people are passing out the pitchforks.
11
The people are angry because our democracy has morphed into a kleptocracy (government by theft), and the mainstream parties keep pushing the kleptocrats upon us as candidates.
9
"As Michael Grunwald argued recently in Politico, the worst-case scenarios of the post-Great Recession era haven’t materialized."
In whose reality, Mr. Douthat?
Most Americans are clearly not living post-Great Recession. Most Americans are still up to their necks in the Great Recession.
Only someone like you, who apparently never experienced the Great Recession personally, would infer the Great Recession is over. For you, Mr. Douthat, the Great Recession never began.
In whose reality, Mr. Douthat?
Most Americans are clearly not living post-Great Recession. Most Americans are still up to their necks in the Great Recession.
Only someone like you, who apparently never experienced the Great Recession personally, would infer the Great Recession is over. For you, Mr. Douthat, the Great Recession never began.
2
"Obamacare is limping along without an imminent death spiral, and health care costs aren’t rising as fast as feared."
What a remarkable statement! A conservative who's willing to admit that the ACA is not a complete disaster that is destroying America. Yes, the statement isn't exactly a ringing endorsement, but relative to what most (all?) other conservatives say, it seems that way.
Perhaps the statement points to the realization that the GOP isn't willing to offer a replacement because they know it will either look a lot like the ACA or it will not work.
What a remarkable statement! A conservative who's willing to admit that the ACA is not a complete disaster that is destroying America. Yes, the statement isn't exactly a ringing endorsement, but relative to what most (all?) other conservatives say, it seems that way.
Perhaps the statement points to the realization that the GOP isn't willing to offer a replacement because they know it will either look a lot like the ACA or it will not work.
4
No! Trump's message is "Make America Hate..." Anyone who does not
kowtow to him. Bernie's message is that instead of blaming each other for growing inequality, we must focus on the Corporatists ruining our country by their lust for power. Our very voice is at stake. Vote for positive change.
kowtow to him. Bernie's message is that instead of blaming each other for growing inequality, we must focus on the Corporatists ruining our country by their lust for power. Our very voice is at stake. Vote for positive change.
8
Mr. Douthat: As one who has "religiously" read your columns from Day One, may I congratulate you on what I always figured would be your ultimate destination: a meekly throated endorsement of the status quo. As I read this one, you are positing that the last eight years of the Obama administration have been pretty darn good compared to the choices we now have running for president. Your evolution as a social and political commentator is impressive. However, your railing against decadence without taking the time or words to define it is really beneath you. Decadence? Define the term. Then make your argument. You conveniently forgot the basic tenant of quality debating. One must define the terms before attempting to make an argument. What is the definition of "decadence?" "the act or process of falling into an inferior condition or state; deterioration; decay"--according to "Dictionary.com" To what deterioration are you referring? The fact that a right-wing Supreme Court has reaffirmed that all people are created equal: hence an approval of the right of anyone to marry anyone else they love? Sounds quite Christian or Buddha-like or Hindu-like to me. Of course you might be referring to the decadence of a seven-course suckling pig dinner or the indulgence of playing one of Donald Trump's many golf courses. One could continue to speculate endlessly about "decadence" as you have failed utterly to define it.
5
How did we get in this shape? The examples cited fall short.
First, let's pay homage to the nattering nabobs of negativism, your buddies, Senor Douthat, the Republican party and the rightwing talk radio shouters, the Fox Faked News (FFN) constant doubters and those dozens on Capitol Hill, who kept the country wondering the last five yrs. if the whole thing would come down, Italian style. This was nettlesome, like a swam of buzzing wasps by your nose.
People across America are bathed in negativity. The endless campaign against Obama morphed into a campaign to bring down America's sense of greatness (while still being exceptional!). Obama ruined EVERYTHING, they say, so who should dare to be feeling good?
Still, a lot of this has little to do directly with govt. Corporate America has working people on a very tight leash. Endless fees are charged on top of everything, pay scales don't keep up with inflation, credit card interest rates remained high, never reflecting cheap borrowing, millions wonder if their jobs will fly south to Mexico or skip the oceans to India. Even with unemployment low, there is always someone waiting to take the job. Unions are weak to the point of near evaporation. Drug abuse jumped from big cities to small towns. Marriages shake and crack quicker than fracted-out Oklahoma. The macro signs say, Okay. On the home front, outside the front door, not so much.
On credit and hope, people get by, but they fear the future. You know, next week.
First, let's pay homage to the nattering nabobs of negativism, your buddies, Senor Douthat, the Republican party and the rightwing talk radio shouters, the Fox Faked News (FFN) constant doubters and those dozens on Capitol Hill, who kept the country wondering the last five yrs. if the whole thing would come down, Italian style. This was nettlesome, like a swam of buzzing wasps by your nose.
People across America are bathed in negativity. The endless campaign against Obama morphed into a campaign to bring down America's sense of greatness (while still being exceptional!). Obama ruined EVERYTHING, they say, so who should dare to be feeling good?
Still, a lot of this has little to do directly with govt. Corporate America has working people on a very tight leash. Endless fees are charged on top of everything, pay scales don't keep up with inflation, credit card interest rates remained high, never reflecting cheap borrowing, millions wonder if their jobs will fly south to Mexico or skip the oceans to India. Even with unemployment low, there is always someone waiting to take the job. Unions are weak to the point of near evaporation. Drug abuse jumped from big cities to small towns. Marriages shake and crack quicker than fracted-out Oklahoma. The macro signs say, Okay. On the home front, outside the front door, not so much.
On credit and hope, people get by, but they fear the future. You know, next week.
10
All you have to do is look at what happened in Flint, Michigan. It is an example and metaphor of the frustration (and I would maintain in both the political and private arenas)...absolute callousness and cavalier response to a health emergency, the poisoning of thousands..in this country yet...with minimal outrage and minimal meaningful action and disgracefully slow (still ongoingly slow) response and care.
I would add that lumping Trump and Sanders is ludicrous. The first is a celebrity who'll do anything to feed his ego and the latter is a serious man (he won't get my vote because I want action (and I'm old enough to remember McGovern), but he's got the pulse of what's wrong economically.
I would add that lumping Trump and Sanders is ludicrous. The first is a celebrity who'll do anything to feed his ego and the latter is a serious man (he won't get my vote because I want action (and I'm old enough to remember McGovern), but he's got the pulse of what's wrong economically.
9
Once again Ross Douthat shows himself to be lacking totally the logic gene. He ticks off a list of accomplishments during president Obama's seven years. All of these reflect improvements in various parts of the lives of many Americans. Not all as they will take much more resonable cooperation between the parties. Given where the republicans are now that is unlikely in the near future.
After pointing out President Obama's accomplishments he inexplicably labels them as indicators of "decadence". From there he weaves an illogical comaprison between Mr. Trump and Senator Sanders. The entire column should be an embarassment to the Times Editorial board and its leaders Messrs. Baquet and Sulzberger. It has no core thought to it and goes nowhere.
After pointing out President Obama's accomplishments he inexplicably labels them as indicators of "decadence". From there he weaves an illogical comaprison between Mr. Trump and Senator Sanders. The entire column should be an embarassment to the Times Editorial board and its leaders Messrs. Baquet and Sulzberger. It has no core thought to it and goes nowhere.
12
How can you even put Trump and Sanders in the same sentence? How can you even roughly equate Obamacare with a welfare state? During this "heroic age of liberalism" our country was guided by mostly middle-class veterans who shared a sense of obligation to each other, after so much suffering, they asked themselves the big question, why, and delivered their answer- shared societal progress.
And you know our political history has always included progressives, populists, agrarians, those outside of the rich boy box, that have tried again and again to change the focus of our country from international capitalism to the old simple "internal improvements". This will never change.
And you know our political history has always included progressives, populists, agrarians, those outside of the rich boy box, that have tried again and again to change the focus of our country from international capitalism to the old simple "internal improvements". This will never change.
4
I've come to the conclusion that at at least half of the national 'anger' is the child of what we've all along actually thought it was, a product of cable news left and right, Fox and MSNBC as igniters. Telling people what they want to hear, with sponsors and our buying the sponsors' products footing the bill. I'll go with 'decadent' in as much as people are bored and thoughtless and distracted enough to be enlivened and entertained by such a whipped-up bargain.
America is a pretty damn nice place to live.
America is a pretty damn nice place to live.
3
If Trumpcasino Atlantic City, complete with bankruptcies, and Celebrity Apprentice aren't decadence, the word has no meaning.
5
Being dishonest by intention, commission, or misdirection has become so acceptable it's not easy to comment on "health care cost aren't rising as fast as feared". You can't praise a 4% unemployment rate , or acknowledge that yes things were dramatically worse, and still bad due to your presidential choice George W Bush's actions. You continually put up "straw dog" comments. If you don't have something factually based, and insightful to say why not consider a constructive like of work, and add to the GDP.
4
I would posit that the value that is most sorely missed is truth.All we the people want is a representative who speaks truth;we can take it.
We understand that the plutocrats run the world and wall street finances it.
We understand that there is a religous war going on(between Iran and our friends the Saudis)
I thought pres.Obama was going to stand and say truth,but sadly,just another pol.
Please,wont someone tell the truth?
We understand that the plutocrats run the world and wall street finances it.
We understand that there is a religous war going on(between Iran and our friends the Saudis)
I thought pres.Obama was going to stand and say truth,but sadly,just another pol.
Please,wont someone tell the truth?
4
It seems to me that as the political blah-blah season gears up, political pundits in general, including those in our paper of record, can't seem to face up to two simple facts: (1) The American democracy was destroyed by Citizens United, and (2) The Republican party is corrupt.
13
Ross, middle class, middle class. What is so difficult to understand? Decadence? the GOP is decadent, a party that kisses the behinds of oligarchs and corporations and has it's face in the federal feedbag. They're reaping in the money because foolish men and women voted for them, voted for those who are bobbing them, their children and grandchildren blind. The GOP's panderers are pursuing the decadence, emulating that of their handlers'.
The GOP's clients are devising a systematic destruction of the middle class. A class that has educated children who might vote with a brain instead of with a knee-jerk reaction to boiler-plate, irrational Chicken Little alarms. A strong middle class frightens them.
Bernie Sanders is offering a social democratic future while everyone else is offering serfdom. Ross, use your brain instead of the religious spiel you are using as a crutch to avoid reality. Huddling in church desperately reciting prayers ain't going to fix things. There are brave men and women valiantly trying to do good, people with their heads screwed on right, who are constantly shouted down by the many variations of people like you, dinosaurs taking too much time to become extinct.
Our air, water, and the "happiness" that we used to pursue is becoming fouler and fouler. Wake up, go cold turkey and face reality, for your children's sake. Even your Pope has woken up. Bernie has answers and you're too lost in the fog of your church's incense to see them clearly.
The GOP's clients are devising a systematic destruction of the middle class. A class that has educated children who might vote with a brain instead of with a knee-jerk reaction to boiler-plate, irrational Chicken Little alarms. A strong middle class frightens them.
Bernie Sanders is offering a social democratic future while everyone else is offering serfdom. Ross, use your brain instead of the religious spiel you are using as a crutch to avoid reality. Huddling in church desperately reciting prayers ain't going to fix things. There are brave men and women valiantly trying to do good, people with their heads screwed on right, who are constantly shouted down by the many variations of people like you, dinosaurs taking too much time to become extinct.
Our air, water, and the "happiness" that we used to pursue is becoming fouler and fouler. Wake up, go cold turkey and face reality, for your children's sake. Even your Pope has woken up. Bernie has answers and you're too lost in the fog of your church's incense to see them clearly.
13
There is no greater greed or decadence than a federal government that is already taking record high tax revenues and record debt demanding even more money
2
First, let me say as a conservative Republican, I agree with you; the use of religion in this election cycle has been excessive, but I would remind you that this is not a new phenomenon. It is not that I reject people using religious values to inform their political decisions. I strongly defend their right to do so. However, I am with Lincoln, I hope that God is on my side, but I am sufficiently humble enough to realize that I do not have a monopoly on wisdom or on knowledge of God’s will. I find ostentatious displays of religiosity off-putting and inconsistent with the explicit guidance of Christ in the Gospels. Often invocations of God for political purposes are crass and verge on sacrilegious. But as you say, this is Iowa, and that is what the voters seem to want. And, frankly, I have seen President Obama and Secretary Clinton invoke faith and religion to defend their policies. And many liberals and moderates have defended Governor Kasich for invoking his faith in support of policies that he claims help the poor. Where do you draw the line? Is it acceptable to invoke religion as long as people agree with you? For me, I believe that our fundamental rights are God-given, which is the message of the Declaration of Independence, and I support politicians who declare as much. However, if your argument is that God has endorsed your policy positions or that you have some special claim to piety or God’s grace, I am very troubled by that.
51
The most poignant answer to your question Mr. Douthat is that you (and the rest of the mainstream media) are painting a false picture of the economy. You say the unemployment rate is under four percent in two states, ant the Editorial Board says it is five percent in its editorial endorsing Kasich. These are "official" unemployment rates, and they are deeply misleading and dishonest statistics. Gallup even published an opinion calling the official unemployment rate a "big lie" (http://www.gallup.com/opinion/chairman/181469/big-lie-unemployment.aspx). The "unemployment rate" has always been misleading, but because of the record number of people who have fallen out of the work force during the Obama years, it has become a farce. A more honest approach would use the labor participation rate, which is at historical lows. Plus, for most Americans real wealth and real wages have been falling. For most Americans, they have fallen further and further behind every single day for years. Yet, the Democrats, the media, and even a conservative columnist are telling them, "Happy days are here again." So when Trump (who should never be president) says that the unemployment rate is some ridiculous amount in the thirties or forties, he's lying, bus so is the "establishment" (I hate the term, but there it is). And you have to ask yourself, "Which lie speaks more to the legitimate concerns of the most Americans?"
2
Decadence?
Does promoting ignorance count as decadent?
Does promoting hatred, racism, religious bigotry count?
Does cruelty toward the poor count?
Does paying slave wages that qualify employees for food stamps and Medicaid count?
Does denying water and food to the hungry and thirsty, does taking away access to health care, does shunning refugees count as decadence to Republican or Democratic candidates? And if they don't, are they definitively decadent. Is greed decadent? Should we all pay our fair share? Would that be decadent?
Does promoting ignorance count as decadent?
Does promoting hatred, racism, religious bigotry count?
Does cruelty toward the poor count?
Does paying slave wages that qualify employees for food stamps and Medicaid count?
Does denying water and food to the hungry and thirsty, does taking away access to health care, does shunning refugees count as decadence to Republican or Democratic candidates? And if they don't, are they definitively decadent. Is greed decadent? Should we all pay our fair share? Would that be decadent?
4
Fact check:
"unemployment rate is currently under 4 percent" - No! it's at 5.0% http://data.bls.gov/timeseries/LNS14000000 Furthermore, the labor participation rate is way down and continues to stay down at less than 63% http://data.bls.gov/timeseries/LNS11300000 .
"The deficit has fallen a bit"... uh, yeah, but it's still a deficit and the national debt keeps climbing. Even after the "recovery" it's a $445 billion deficit.. per year.
People aren't rebelling against "it could be worse", they're rebelling against career politicians who are bought and sold by globalist ideologies that ship jobs overseas and want to institute regime change where we should keep our paws out. They're rebelling against the fact that all the benefits of the "recovery" (if you can even call it that) have gone to the top 5% (plus or minus) while everyone else continues to be worse off.
The "socialist" moniker attached to Bernie is but an lame attempt to discredit him with a broad brush. He proved in Burlington, as mayor, that he could work with republicans - how could a socialist do that? Trump, as crass and rough as he is, is seen as a savior for those 95% who are faring worse-off than 8, 10 or 12 years ago, plus he's not one of "them."
People look at Trump and Sanders and say "how much worse could they be?" and conclude that it's worth a shot. The mainstreamers are the ones who appear to be just "more roads leading down."
"unemployment rate is currently under 4 percent" - No! it's at 5.0% http://data.bls.gov/timeseries/LNS14000000 Furthermore, the labor participation rate is way down and continues to stay down at less than 63% http://data.bls.gov/timeseries/LNS11300000 .
"The deficit has fallen a bit"... uh, yeah, but it's still a deficit and the national debt keeps climbing. Even after the "recovery" it's a $445 billion deficit.. per year.
People aren't rebelling against "it could be worse", they're rebelling against career politicians who are bought and sold by globalist ideologies that ship jobs overseas and want to institute regime change where we should keep our paws out. They're rebelling against the fact that all the benefits of the "recovery" (if you can even call it that) have gone to the top 5% (plus or minus) while everyone else continues to be worse off.
The "socialist" moniker attached to Bernie is but an lame attempt to discredit him with a broad brush. He proved in Burlington, as mayor, that he could work with republicans - how could a socialist do that? Trump, as crass and rough as he is, is seen as a savior for those 95% who are faring worse-off than 8, 10 or 12 years ago, plus he's not one of "them."
People look at Trump and Sanders and say "how much worse could they be?" and conclude that it's worth a shot. The mainstreamers are the ones who appear to be just "more roads leading down."
2
It seemed for a moment there as if Mr. Douthat wanted to acknowledge that Obama's presidency has been largely successful, but then couldn't quite bring himself to do it.
4
Here is the simple problem. There is actually no one on the republican side that is better than Trump. I mean the rest of those clowns are not even very good clowns. Hillary is so corrupt and in bed with wall street who would want her as president. Now we come to Bernie. Bernie is the real deal. You can call him a socialist all you want. But in reality Bernie knows we are all in this together. We can stand together or we can fall apart.
Bernie 2016
Bernie 2016
5
It is about the economy. Period. I challenge you and anybody else who fantasizes differently to take a visit to the poor neighborhoods in any city and talk to people, see how they live. Talk to a Walmart employee who is working three jobs, no time off, to stay afloat. Get personally exposed to this growing segment of America and then tell me that the issue is anything but the economy. The more I see what's happening, and being in business exposes me, the more I believe that people in this country need basics: respectable housing, good food, education, health care, good paying jobs that offer some security and a future. Businesses can offer that, IF they would. I don't like welfare and am aware of abuses but the system and economy is set up to perpetuate it.. We need billionaires to step up and help people in this country...Appalachia, any city you can think of. All the stuff overseas is great but right here we have some big, huge issues that billionaire money needs to address now. Start with decent housing and food on the table and take some of that profit and create well paying middle class jobs. Come on. Get real!
2
People may be angry, but they are scared first. They are scared that when they get sick, really sick, and have to spend 3 weeks in the hospital, they have to miss work and then can't pay their bills, including their rent. They are scared of getting old and hearing the constant drumbeat of threats to Social Security. They are scared of losing their jobs and never finding another decent job, or they are scared of never having a career. They are scared that if their car needs a $900.00 repair, they can't pay it. They are scared. And scared people become angry.
4
In the last 30 years housing, healthcare, and college costs have sky-rocketed to unimaginable levels while wages have remained flat or declined even though American productivity has increased.
Less upward mobility and more working poor. Decadence? That's the wrong departure point completely. You should start with "...revolt against the systematic ripoff of working Americans."
Trump embodies the ripoff in everything he does: Casinos (make you feel good as the house ultimately wins), Trump University (closed because of lawsuits), bankruptcy (who really paid Trump's debt), the Apprentice (i'll give you some air time, but mostly humiliation) and the Trump campaign...the ultimate rip-off, participatory democracy replaced by 'The Art of Deal'--remember, the house always win.
This peice is stunningly wrong-minded...I'm truly astonished.
Less upward mobility and more working poor. Decadence? That's the wrong departure point completely. You should start with "...revolt against the systematic ripoff of working Americans."
Trump embodies the ripoff in everything he does: Casinos (make you feel good as the house ultimately wins), Trump University (closed because of lawsuits), bankruptcy (who really paid Trump's debt), the Apprentice (i'll give you some air time, but mostly humiliation) and the Trump campaign...the ultimate rip-off, participatory democracy replaced by 'The Art of Deal'--remember, the house always win.
This peice is stunningly wrong-minded...I'm truly astonished.
3
bernie might be revolting against decadence
but trump is just revolting decadence
but trump is just revolting decadence
5
I wouldn't call what Trump wants a revolt against decadence, but rather a return to excess and good old fashioned discrimination. In real estate in his era, bigger meant better (Trump Tower), gaudy meant prestigious (his 40 Wall Street), and so on. He likes it better when the WASP male (him) was firmly on top, like the Hathaway Shirt guy. Sanders' deal is that he is envious of the "decadence" of the super rich, but he really lusts after their money. It's just another way to seize the income of anyone who makes more than $50,000 a year. Both men are playing the American voter for chumps.
Sanders is not the authoritarian Trump's opposite number in any way that matters, only in the ways "nothing much can happen, and nothing should" establishmentarians like this columnist (and sometimes, this paper) invent, tying themselves into knots to achieve fake equivalency. There really is a crackpot center.
3
Douthat: "But Sanders is telling liberals...that they can have a welfare state that’s far more amazing and fantastic than the one their forefathers constructed."
Ross, if that is what you have been hearing from Sanders, you have obviously not been paying attention or have a hearing problem that needs correcting.
Sanders is making a persuasive case that the system is currently rigged and, as a result, not everyone has a "place at the table" -- many are excluded and do not have the opportunity to earn a living wage. He is not proposing a welfare state but a state that makes fairness and justice its ultimate concern, a state that makes certain all have the opportunity to make a contribution to society and enjoy the fruits of their labor.
Ross, if that is what you have been hearing from Sanders, you have obviously not been paying attention or have a hearing problem that needs correcting.
Sanders is making a persuasive case that the system is currently rigged and, as a result, not everyone has a "place at the table" -- many are excluded and do not have the opportunity to earn a living wage. He is not proposing a welfare state but a state that makes fairness and justice its ultimate concern, a state that makes certain all have the opportunity to make a contribution to society and enjoy the fruits of their labor.
9
You're seeing the first political manifestation of a couple generations that know we can remake government. We aren't limited to marching behind ministers, Rotarians or Wall Streeters. It'll be fun to watch it all play out. I'm in.
2
Douthat misses the essential point that establishment politicians don't even bother to hide their corruption and self-interest any more, and that the outsiders Trump and Sanders are expressions of popular disgust with dishonest government. Their messages are unimportant because the public is using them to send a message of its own to the establishment... "You're fired!"
5
A well written opinion that hits the nail on the head. Both Trump and ,sorry to say, Sanders play to voters frustrations without any substance or plans to "make America great again" or provide "medicare for all". Douthat is even willing to admit that America is doing much better than republicans want to admit. 5% unemployment, low cost oil and gas and a growing economy and free of any unnecessary military entanglements. The fact is that at this point in time America is the most powerful and positive economic force in the world.
Trump is a demagogue built on hot air and preening self-regard. Sanders, whatever you think of him, is a serious and thoughtful public servant -- the longest-serving independent legislator in U.S. history, placed in that position time and again by his constituents, with no help from the major parties. To conflate the two is an intellectual fraud perpetrated by right-wing shills trying to confer seriousness on Trump (even as they pretend to criticize him) while diminishing Sanders, whose arguments cannot be refuted on their merits. Nice try, Douthat, but your slip is showing.
8
I don't agree with the prescriptions of either the Democrats or Republicans, but I do feel we have gotten off track. We have used our power both at home and abroad to become a force of evil in the world not a force for good.
We have been at war almost continuously since WWII. Looking at the world, we have made things worse, not better. At home our system has put millions out of work and sentenced them to poverty in their old age. Our political system is givings us crazies and egotists as potential Presidents.
Let us bring our troops and money home, all we do is make things worse. Use the money to build up our economy, repair our roads and care for our elderly. Give our business to those countries who are our friends or who want to be our friends. At home, support local businesses who treat their people well. There is no excuse for a company like Amazon to prosper with the way they treat their people and suppliers, the same goes for Walmart.
We need to realize that our choices matter. It matters how we treat people, because by doing so we define what is acceptable. It matters where we spend our money because by doing so we define what kind of company we value. It matters what we allow our national leaders to do because by doing so we define what kind of President we want and therefore what kind of country we will be.
We have been at war almost continuously since WWII. Looking at the world, we have made things worse, not better. At home our system has put millions out of work and sentenced them to poverty in their old age. Our political system is givings us crazies and egotists as potential Presidents.
Let us bring our troops and money home, all we do is make things worse. Use the money to build up our economy, repair our roads and care for our elderly. Give our business to those countries who are our friends or who want to be our friends. At home, support local businesses who treat their people well. There is no excuse for a company like Amazon to prosper with the way they treat their people and suppliers, the same goes for Walmart.
We need to realize that our choices matter. It matters how we treat people, because by doing so we define what is acceptable. It matters where we spend our money because by doing so we define what kind of company we value. It matters what we allow our national leaders to do because by doing so we define what kind of President we want and therefore what kind of country we will be.
59
It's really quite simple actually. Health insurance companies and drug manufactures aren't even hiding the fact that they stick it to us every single day. The two largest benefactors of Obama's ACA and contributors of his campaign. Friends and family of ours gets treatment in their home country that is just as good or better for little or no cost, and have higher mortality rates. Everyone knows that they are overpaying for their homes. It was a strategic move by the fed and Democrat government to keep rates low and money cheap, because it created an inflated housing bubble again. "Sure you can borrow $400k for a $450k home at 3% with low interest" but what people don't realize is that house is really only worth $250k. People are establishing reverse equity and we all know it. Our European counterparts hold multiple degrees at not cost. Many ironically have many corporate jobs here in the U.S, predicated on work visas. You have young people (mostly women) who are paying thousands and hundreds of thousands of dollars for mundane and mostly useless educations and coming out with false liberal ideals. It's a terrible cycle. They are fed up. They don't believe there is a war on women.
Our country needs to get back to its roots of oil and grease and hard work rebuilding infrastructure, going to the moon, industrialization and Trump is the only person that can or wants to do that. I could even see Trump creating universal healthcare since he is so budget focused.
Our country needs to get back to its roots of oil and grease and hard work rebuilding infrastructure, going to the moon, industrialization and Trump is the only person that can or wants to do that. I could even see Trump creating universal healthcare since he is so budget focused.
2
I agree with your analysis, Ross, but you've left out the role of increasingly strident political correctness between 2012 and now, as exemplified by two Supreme Court decisions on same-sex marriage, the mainstreaming of trigger warnings and micro aggressions and safe spaces, pop divas like Katy Perry and Beyonce taking on the label "feminist" (before, they and their peers equivocated about it), gamergate, the kind of "punching down" we saw with Kim Davis and the dentist that killed Cecil the Lion, disinvited commencement speakers, Donald Sterling, Rachel Dolezal, Caitlyn Jenner, and on and on (Slate had 365 examples in its "Year of Outrage 2014"). This cultural wave has empowered both the Bernie-supporters, who see themselves winning, and the Trumpeters (thanks Palin!) who feel the country is being lurched to the left. Even South Park, which thought it was done with the issue, made this most recent season a disquisition on the new PC hegemony. So yes, decadence, but also that the only problems we seem to try to solve anymore relate to identity politics.
This article really resonates with me. Very well done. The country lacks any sort of national purpose, and voters are expressing their frustration. Interesting that Douthat mentions the "space age," which ended long ago. Though the moon landings were originally aimed at defeating the Soviets in a scientific endeavor, they did provide the country with a sense of national mission and accomplishment, and showed us we're capable of great things. A renewed manned space program to set up a manned space station on Mars wouldn't be extremely costly (about 1/6 of what we spend on defense every year), and would give Americans a mission to get excited about, as well as new faith in their country's abilities.
Ross is a Roman Catholic who started out as Pentecostal in his teen years. So once again we get "A society where people have fewer children" as a symptom of a general negative feeling that things are getting worse, not better, so people have no faith in the future.
Maybe people are having fewer children because they are looking at their lives and the world intelligently. Maybe it's reasonable to have kids at the replacement rate or below, since half of them aren't going to die of childhood illnesses and half the rest before they are 25, they don't need a lot of kids to collect the eggs and help with the harvest, and there seem to be more than enough people on earth to ruin the place already.
Ross's thinking in this case is not a conclusion based on social observation but is based on the medieval philosophy and dictates of his religion.
Maybe people are having fewer children because they are looking at their lives and the world intelligently. Maybe it's reasonable to have kids at the replacement rate or below, since half of them aren't going to die of childhood illnesses and half the rest before they are 25, they don't need a lot of kids to collect the eggs and help with the harvest, and there seem to be more than enough people on earth to ruin the place already.
Ross's thinking in this case is not a conclusion based on social observation but is based on the medieval philosophy and dictates of his religion.
2
So, "decadence" is a "useful way of describing a society that’s wealthy, powerful, technologically proficient — and yet seemingly unable to advance in the way that its citizens once took for granted."
As a college essay, Douthat''s column would get full marks for describing a problem and zero credit for explaining it.
America is decadent because it is succumbing to the Republican assault on government, because of the toxic effects of free-market fundamentalism and unrestrained capitalism and because globalization has taken away well-paying American jobs and replaced them with a gig economy for those with college degrees and subsistence-level service jobs for those who don't.
Back to the college essay, Douthat would loose points for failing to offer solutions, something he shares with Trump.
I long to live in Sanders' midcentury Scandinavia, but I am enough of a realist to understand that America's decadence is too far advanced for Sanders to have a chance to implement his solutions.
As a college essay, Douthat''s column would get full marks for describing a problem and zero credit for explaining it.
America is decadent because it is succumbing to the Republican assault on government, because of the toxic effects of free-market fundamentalism and unrestrained capitalism and because globalization has taken away well-paying American jobs and replaced them with a gig economy for those with college degrees and subsistence-level service jobs for those who don't.
Back to the college essay, Douthat would loose points for failing to offer solutions, something he shares with Trump.
I long to live in Sanders' midcentury Scandinavia, but I am enough of a realist to understand that America's decadence is too far advanced for Sanders to have a chance to implement his solutions.
3
It's not decadence, Ross, it's corruption, the corruption of our political and economic system, the resulting oligarchy, and the power grabs behind the scenes by big business, the super-wealthy and the military-industrial complex. Everything, from the Congress to the candidates seems bought and paid for. I'm one of those post-war boomers you speak of, and have concluded that the calm and prosperity of the time I grew up in, pre-Vietnam, was an anomaly. The chaos we have now is far more normal, unfortunately. I'm utterly disillusioned with Obama because he's a bystander president who's only interested in a few domestic issues he has a comfort level with. He has allowed DOD and the generals to stage an effective coup that will keep us playing whack-a-mole all over the globe for decades, with no strategy, plan, or discussion. Congress is completely corrupt, self-interested and evading their responsibilities to satisfy big donors. The Supreme Court has assured that money guys can buy elections, and the electorate itself is so fractured and poorly educated, it makes bad choices.
I hardly recognize the country I grew up in; the cynicism of those in power is breathtaking, and the idea of who we thought we were when I was growing up has evaporated, with nothing but anger and fear replacing it. I would never vote for any of the Republican candidates--the thought of any of them winning is apocalyptic. I am angry and disillusioned, but it's not decadence, it's corruption.
I hardly recognize the country I grew up in; the cynicism of those in power is breathtaking, and the idea of who we thought we were when I was growing up has evaporated, with nothing but anger and fear replacing it. I would never vote for any of the Republican candidates--the thought of any of them winning is apocalyptic. I am angry and disillusioned, but it's not decadence, it's corruption.
2
Why Now?
Between World War II and the 1970's the vast middle of America had wages that ran a point or two above inflation. The Nation's productivity gains were shared with them.
This allowed them to have real wealth growth above inflation and they could own a nice home, have one person stay home and raise their kids, and save enough to send them to college.
Since the 1970's that sharing of the Nation's Productivity stopped. The vast middle class has seen their wages get eaten up with inflation and they are getting relatively poorer with every passing year.
In the 1980's and 1990's the, mostly women, of the families went to work. First part time and now full time to make up for that slip in household income. That worked for about 1 to 2 generations.
The problem is that even at 1% inflation marches on. So in 30 years the contribution of the second worker to family income has been eaten up.
The vast middle class is now at the ultimate economic cross roads. There is nobody to send to work to maintain their standard of living. Unless we want to send 10 year old back into the work force.
With their back up against the economic wall and nothing on the horizon that would stop the inevitable erosion of their incomes...that is "why now".
Between World War II and the 1970's the vast middle of America had wages that ran a point or two above inflation. The Nation's productivity gains were shared with them.
This allowed them to have real wealth growth above inflation and they could own a nice home, have one person stay home and raise their kids, and save enough to send them to college.
Since the 1970's that sharing of the Nation's Productivity stopped. The vast middle class has seen their wages get eaten up with inflation and they are getting relatively poorer with every passing year.
In the 1980's and 1990's the, mostly women, of the families went to work. First part time and now full time to make up for that slip in household income. That worked for about 1 to 2 generations.
The problem is that even at 1% inflation marches on. So in 30 years the contribution of the second worker to family income has been eaten up.
The vast middle class is now at the ultimate economic cross roads. There is nobody to send to work to maintain their standard of living. Unless we want to send 10 year old back into the work force.
With their back up against the economic wall and nothing on the horizon that would stop the inevitable erosion of their incomes...that is "why now".
2
This is, with all due respect, one of the worst articles I've ever read by Ross Douthat, a supposedly conservative writer. For starters, he sounds like a full Democrat. Not even partial anymore. But more to the point, he gets everything completely wrong in his assessment of what people are thinking, feeling and experiencing.
Without going too long here, what we are experiencing is the tipping point of policies that have been embraced uncritically, by both parties, since the end of the Cold War. Bush 41's "New World Order" has proceeded from his presidency through Clinton, 43 and Obama.
Economic "Globalization" (unthinking free trade and open borders) and foreign interventionism have proved themselves to be disasters for the American people. Since the economic meltdown in 2008, things have been building to a point where they are now boiling over. The left has hammered the country with "identity politics" and political correctness, and an all-out assault on "traditional values" while completely failing on the economy.
The rosy picture Ross paints of the economy is easily disproved by any poll that asks people how they feel about it. What has happened is that elites in Wall Street, Silicon Valley and Washington DC (not coincidentally Obama's biggest donors) circled the wagons around themselves at taxpayer expense, and have been experiencing boom times as a result, while the rest of the country suffers through an economic depression.
Something has got to give.
Without going too long here, what we are experiencing is the tipping point of policies that have been embraced uncritically, by both parties, since the end of the Cold War. Bush 41's "New World Order" has proceeded from his presidency through Clinton, 43 and Obama.
Economic "Globalization" (unthinking free trade and open borders) and foreign interventionism have proved themselves to be disasters for the American people. Since the economic meltdown in 2008, things have been building to a point where they are now boiling over. The left has hammered the country with "identity politics" and political correctness, and an all-out assault on "traditional values" while completely failing on the economy.
The rosy picture Ross paints of the economy is easily disproved by any poll that asks people how they feel about it. What has happened is that elites in Wall Street, Silicon Valley and Washington DC (not coincidentally Obama's biggest donors) circled the wagons around themselves at taxpayer expense, and have been experiencing boom times as a result, while the rest of the country suffers through an economic depression.
Something has got to give.
2
American's act like New England Patriots fans. What we didn't win the Super Bowl again? It is an arrogance born of contempt and Trump is it's embodiment.
We are the richest, most powerful nation on earth, our problems are trivialities on the scale of those faced by most people on earth ("First world problems").
We are not omnipotent; but neither are we weak. The world still marches to an American drum, if not always in time.
This election feels like the triumph of fear over reason; of arrogance over humility.
We are the richest, most powerful nation on earth, our problems are trivialities on the scale of those faced by most people on earth ("First world problems").
We are not omnipotent; but neither are we weak. The world still marches to an American drum, if not always in time.
This election feels like the triumph of fear over reason; of arrogance over humility.
1
How much greater can we be?
We not only have to support ourselves, but need to prop up the entire free world. We are the most generous country in the history of the world, yet the world keeps demanding more of us.
So, it's easy to empathize with our young people when they see elections that are attended by less than 35 percent of the voting public and gerrymandering that discourages any kind of participation.
I find it interesting that the GOP constantly talks about private sector competition being the end all, yet it does whatever it can to eliminate any competition at the ballot box.
But there is plenty of blame to share.
But tearing down what we have is not the answer, building upon the good things is. There's plenty there, as Mr. Douthat has said, but you need to see it first. That's something Republicans are unwilling to do. It's easier to complain. It always is.
We not only have to support ourselves, but need to prop up the entire free world. We are the most generous country in the history of the world, yet the world keeps demanding more of us.
So, it's easy to empathize with our young people when they see elections that are attended by less than 35 percent of the voting public and gerrymandering that discourages any kind of participation.
I find it interesting that the GOP constantly talks about private sector competition being the end all, yet it does whatever it can to eliminate any competition at the ballot box.
But there is plenty of blame to share.
But tearing down what we have is not the answer, building upon the good things is. There's plenty there, as Mr. Douthat has said, but you need to see it first. That's something Republicans are unwilling to do. It's easier to complain. It always is.
1
I am an enthusiastic HRC supporter and for all the right reasons. Oddly, my worldview should make me a Sanders supporter ... it is practicality and sensibility that will have me pull the lever for Clinton.
But something is very wrong. For those of us latter day Baby Boomers or the oldest of GenX the Great Recession has indeed blown over, but we (those say 45-60) were left in the dust. We went into the downturn highly skilled & suddenly unemployed. At dawn our entire breadth of knowledge, experience, job skills etc deemed worthless is a highly changed world & economy. We are still a decade or more from retirement and vast numbers of us suddenly find ourselves untrained & inexperienced when just a decade ago we were at the top of our game.
Then consider income inequality. The masses are growing too poor. Most of us have not had a real wage increase since the Clinton administration. And GDP-based inflation does not factor in life's costliest expenses ... most of what we pay for are not "products" & service-based expenses have skyrocketed.
Throughout history most great nations have been brought down when the general public feels disenfranchised by a select few who have pocketed more than their fair share. Yes, the Zuckerberg's et al did change the world and thus should be very rich. But $20B+ before age 30 is unnecessary wealth. Pay higher salaries to everyone else who is making your company great. Surely a few billion with a properly compensated workforce is enough.
But something is very wrong. For those of us latter day Baby Boomers or the oldest of GenX the Great Recession has indeed blown over, but we (those say 45-60) were left in the dust. We went into the downturn highly skilled & suddenly unemployed. At dawn our entire breadth of knowledge, experience, job skills etc deemed worthless is a highly changed world & economy. We are still a decade or more from retirement and vast numbers of us suddenly find ourselves untrained & inexperienced when just a decade ago we were at the top of our game.
Then consider income inequality. The masses are growing too poor. Most of us have not had a real wage increase since the Clinton administration. And GDP-based inflation does not factor in life's costliest expenses ... most of what we pay for are not "products" & service-based expenses have skyrocketed.
Throughout history most great nations have been brought down when the general public feels disenfranchised by a select few who have pocketed more than their fair share. Yes, the Zuckerberg's et al did change the world and thus should be very rich. But $20B+ before age 30 is unnecessary wealth. Pay higher salaries to everyone else who is making your company great. Surely a few billion with a properly compensated workforce is enough.
108
I am very annoyed that Trump supporters and Sanders supporters are being lumped together in pundit analysis. There is a BIG difference.
Grunwald's description of reality is just that - reality. But if you ask any Trump supporter he would deny all the Grunwald states. A Sanders supporter would acknowledge Grunwald's observations.
The BIG difference is that Sanders supporters are rebelling against the reality of the huge disparity in wealth and the fact the recent gains have all been to the top. Trump supporters, while experience the economic doldrums, too, will blame it on a fiction -- immigrants, Obamacare, ISIS, etc.
We can't change the course we are on if we can't agree on the cause of the doldrums.
Grunwald's description of reality is just that - reality. But if you ask any Trump supporter he would deny all the Grunwald states. A Sanders supporter would acknowledge Grunwald's observations.
The BIG difference is that Sanders supporters are rebelling against the reality of the huge disparity in wealth and the fact the recent gains have all been to the top. Trump supporters, while experience the economic doldrums, too, will blame it on a fiction -- immigrants, Obamacare, ISIS, etc.
We can't change the course we are on if we can't agree on the cause of the doldrums.
8
Your column on Trump and Sanders lacks a conclusion other than a platitude, unless it was this phrase:
"But more important, the fact that both men are promising the implausible or the impossible..."
I'm sorry but it is the candidates other than Trump and Sanders who offer the implausible or impossible. We know they are not repealing Obamacare. We know they say they are against trade deals when we also know they don't even discuss it because they are going to pass the latest bad trade deal as soon as the meddlesome public are out of the way and the Chamber of Commerce show up with a bag of cash after the election is over.
Is the Israeli Wall in Jerusalem and "impossibility"? Doesn't look like it last time I saw it on tv. Is it implausible that establishment republicans will raise taxes on the rich who got them elected? Yes.
"But more important, the fact that both men are promising the implausible or the impossible..."
I'm sorry but it is the candidates other than Trump and Sanders who offer the implausible or impossible. We know they are not repealing Obamacare. We know they say they are against trade deals when we also know they don't even discuss it because they are going to pass the latest bad trade deal as soon as the meddlesome public are out of the way and the Chamber of Commerce show up with a bag of cash after the election is over.
Is the Israeli Wall in Jerusalem and "impossibility"? Doesn't look like it last time I saw it on tv. Is it implausible that establishment republicans will raise taxes on the rich who got them elected? Yes.
4
This is about the jobs and wages lost to free trade, lost pensions replaced by 401ks that will never pay enough to retire. The wealthy and their shills in Congress have sold out the middle class, that's what this is about.
13
"This is about the jobs and wages lost to free trade..."
And government should guarantee you a well-paying job in perpetuity? And since when have we actually have "free trade"? If it takes thousands of pages for a trade agreement, that's not my definition of "free" trade - it's more like someone's opinion of "fair" trade.
And government should guarantee you a well-paying job in perpetuity? And since when have we actually have "free trade"? If it takes thousands of pages for a trade agreement, that's not my definition of "free" trade - it's more like someone's opinion of "fair" trade.
I haven't seen or heard Sanders talking about a welfare state, and I'm not sure which one he is talking about that our forefathers constructed (unless he's talking about Jefferson, Adams, Washington, et al. providing government paid education for all).
I have heard Trump call for increased corn and other agricultural subsidies to farm conglomerates, but not sure if that qualifies as welfare since the money goes to people with a lot of money rather than to people with none.
I have heard Trump call for increased corn and other agricultural subsidies to farm conglomerates, but not sure if that qualifies as welfare since the money goes to people with a lot of money rather than to people with none.
4
i agree with this analysis to explain how we ended up with "let the perfect be the enemy of the good," sanders and "i'm so perfect we'll have no enemies" trump appealling to so many voters - it's more impatience and ignorance steeped in fantasy than anything else.
4
"A society disillusioned with existing religions and ideologies, but lacking new sources of meaning to take their place."
When a child ceases to believe in Santa Claus - what source of meaning takes its place? What belief fills the hole left by no longer believing in Santa Claus? The answer is: nothing. There isn't one.
Ross uses a common Christian buzzword - decadence - which implies moral decline (arguable, at best) and indulgence in pleasurable pursuits (not a bad thing). Just because other people are having more fun than you doesn't make them decadent.
When a child ceases to believe in Santa Claus - what source of meaning takes its place? What belief fills the hole left by no longer believing in Santa Claus? The answer is: nothing. There isn't one.
Ross uses a common Christian buzzword - decadence - which implies moral decline (arguable, at best) and indulgence in pleasurable pursuits (not a bad thing). Just because other people are having more fun than you doesn't make them decadent.
10
The moral decline is in our society, and is reflected in government at all levels.
Americans believe that we can do better than our current political system, but that the system must be rebuilt from the bottom up. Campaign finance laws should come first: get the dark money out of politics, period, full stop. It's like a cancer that cannot be ignored for another minute. Next, mandatory voter registration and a $20 tax penalty for failing to vote: get the people involved in their democracy. The pitiful fact is that Americans just don't participate in elections at nearly the rate other countries do. From there, you'd be amazed at how fast and how far America can recover.
8
Just my opinion, but I think our abysmal voting participation rate is another symptom of the disgust people feel. Politicians are viewed as almost indistinguishable from each other at least in terms of who they really represent. It clearly ain't us - decisions that affect all of us are generally made based on what will be good for corporate America (or even for Global-corporate America). It will be interesting to see whether the overall voter participation rate goes up this year. Do people still have enough faith in the system to believe that electing a Trump or a Sanders can really make a difference? Or will it once again end up as "there's no point in voting because they're all the same"?
1
"Americans believe that we can do better than our current political system, but that the system must be rebuilt from the bottom up."
Agreed, but the first step is a "retrofit" of the federal government, making it more like what the founders envisioned. This monstrosity that is now the federal government is a power-hungry, money-sucking beast that invades and corrupts every aspect of our lives, making successive generations dependent on its so-called "generosity" and "good intentions".
Agreed, but the first step is a "retrofit" of the federal government, making it more like what the founders envisioned. This monstrosity that is now the federal government is a power-hungry, money-sucking beast that invades and corrupts every aspect of our lives, making successive generations dependent on its so-called "generosity" and "good intentions".
The only reason Trump and Sanders should be mentioned in the same essay is to say that they have nothing in common and that their supporters have nothing in common. This nonsense that pundits have created that there is something they have in common is an example of idle minds needing a topic.
14
After four, or eight years of liberals controlling the executive branch, the people get sick of it. It is why no Democrat has succeeded another by election since 1857.
4
I kind of get your point, but you forgot about Harry Truman in 1948. Also one could argue that in 2000 Gore ran as the liberal alternative to Clinton while Bush ran as the moderate successor who could keep his pants on.
Do you really have no memory of what the republicans under Bush Jr. did, and the catastrophes they wrought on every front before scampering away in 2008? Sick of it? We were lucky to survive republicans in power, those of us who did.
1
Americans have had it. Far too many are desperately trying to pay bills as costs go up and they have lost decent jobs with benefits. They avoid going to the doctor because the copay or deductible is too high. They live the lives that our parents' and grandparents' generation thought they had left behind with the Great Depression. We have allowed this to happen under such concepts as "trickle-down," Citizens vs. United, TARP, and Obamacare, all of which benefit corporations and wealthy stockholders. I haven't felt this way since the 60's! It is time for a revolution.
10
And less than 40% of eligible voters showed up at the 2014 midterm elections. Revolutions should be made of sterner stuff.
10
@Spitzer - That is not entirely fair, as the nationwide 40% number includes voters in states with no contested elections. Where there were actual contests, the turnout was much higher.
3
Once again, the intellectually bankrupt pose Sanders and Trump as opposing equivalents. They are not. Sanders is not a socialist; he is a Democratic socialist. In any event, if he IS a socialist, there is nothing wrong with that. Universal health coverage as a right is the law in every modern industrialized nation. Leveling the economic playing field, which has been hijacked by the super rich actually has multiple historic precedents in American history, from Abraham Lincoln to Teddy Roosevelt to FDR. And if universal education and the expansion of the safety net are radical ideas, then let the right set forth their vision for bettering the lives of Americans in terms other than the bootstrap, because the bootstrap is a myth in modern America long ago cut by the elite.
Trump. on the other hand, is a showman, devoid of ideas other than racism and bigotry. To compare the two in any way is dishonest. And dishonesty is the central problem of today's Republican party.
Trump. on the other hand, is a showman, devoid of ideas other than racism and bigotry. To compare the two in any way is dishonest. And dishonesty is the central problem of today's Republican party.
42
The author is forgetting that our current president was swept into office on a wave of voter discontent as well. We currently are in a situation where voters are a bit like steam looking for a vent, it all reminds me of a pressure cooker that is about to blow.
It seems like the more power the elites get, the more we get micromanaged, the more (truly moronic) rules there are, while at the top nobody does their darned job. It's the unaccountability, stupid! The Republicans are the worst offenders, and mark my words, the water in Flint is a far bigger story than the national GOP realizes!
It seems like the more power the elites get, the more we get micromanaged, the more (truly moronic) rules there are, while at the top nobody does their darned job. It's the unaccountability, stupid! The Republicans are the worst offenders, and mark my words, the water in Flint is a far bigger story than the national GOP realizes!
16
"The author is forgetting that our current president was swept into office on a wave of voter discontent as well."
I'll agree with the voter discontent aspect, but any Democrat would have won the Presidency in '08 - Obama was just more "trendy" than Hillary.
Both parties are unaccountable because of the power that resides in our nation's capital. The Founders foresaw that and put limits on federal power. But both parties really don't care about the Constitution unless they can use it to justify grabbing even more power.
I'll agree with the voter discontent aspect, but any Democrat would have won the Presidency in '08 - Obama was just more "trendy" than Hillary.
Both parties are unaccountable because of the power that resides in our nation's capital. The Founders foresaw that and put limits on federal power. But both parties really don't care about the Constitution unless they can use it to justify grabbing even more power.
If this election comes down to choosing between a narcissistic crude gasbag that promises to make America great again or a cranky Socialist who promises that we can make it work even though Socialism has collapsed everywhere it has been tried, I will go with the gasbag.
6
William,
I take issue with your comment, "socialism has collapsed everywhere it's been tried" Actually, Europe is socialist in many ways, as is the United States. Programs here like Medicare and Social Security are socialist programs. I think you're confusing socialism with communism.
I take issue with your comment, "socialism has collapsed everywhere it's been tried" Actually, Europe is socialist in many ways, as is the United States. Programs here like Medicare and Social Security are socialist programs. I think you're confusing socialism with communism.
1
Where has the socialism collapsed?
You are conflating the former east block socialism with socially responsible politics in the Western European countries. Germany, Netherlands, Scandinavia,...
You are misleading about Sanders or ignorant. One of those.
You are conflating the former east block socialism with socially responsible politics in the Western European countries. Germany, Netherlands, Scandinavia,...
You are misleading about Sanders or ignorant. One of those.
2
Socialism is alive in well in many countries including the good 'ol U.S.A. Communism is what I believe you are referring to. Please don't get the two twisted.
1
I'm glad that in Mr. Douthat's view everything is coming up roses - or if not roses, then at least daffodils. Inflation low? In which supermarket? Unemployment low? According to which job seeker? No military morass? Excpet for the fact that we are currently building bases in virtually every nation in Africa.
In Mr. Douthat's world, there is no need for upheaval. But fortunately or unfortunately, most of us do not live there.
In Mr. Douthat's world, there is no need for upheaval. But fortunately or unfortunately, most of us do not live there.
14
I share this as a millennial- the honest truth. I feel- and many of my generation that we have been ignored as a possible voting electorate. We read the news, we see the accounts of various politicians and all; we notice the vitriol and corruption that comes form DC. Whether you like it or not, the political system has to be revamped- completely. The establishment is in bed with Wall Street. I often ask myself why is it that I do everything correctly, yet the system is rigged against me? I am not asking for a perfect candidate, I am looking for a candidate who will shake the establishment so as a nation, we can fix the broken system. Thank you.
20
Perhaps, rather, politicians with the vision and fortitude to deliver on messages of hope and progress for our society are simply no longered nurtured or sought for.
1
I keep reading about an angry electorate. Largely because of Trump, love him or hate him, there is far more interest in the race than you normally would see at this time of year. Thus, I have had many more political discussions than a normal year, hardly a scientific sample, I know. My sense is that anger is way overblown. People are drawn to Trump and to Sanders because they speak their mind. People just seem fed up with politicians who say one thing in Iowa and something else in another state. They are not so much angry, as wanting to be able to say what they think and they have decided they no longer care if someone else tars them as some sort of ist or that they have a phobe. Compare HRC to Sanders and one is consistent and one is, always trying to see which way the wind blows. And Trump does not give a hoot what negative tag a press member is going to hang on him, he revels in it. It is not so much anger as it is poking the establishment in the eye.
59
Robert,
The day that Mr. Trump speaks my mind, I shall return to the U.S. Government my birth certificate from New York. True, I caved in earlier and laughed at a photo of him because he reminds me of a favorite cartoon in a popular boys weekly which kept a generation of young British entertained and brought back fond memories of 'Billy Bunter, The Fat Owl' or 'The Owl of The Remove' at a school called Greyfriars. He looks rather stunned by his success and in full usage of 'What the Thump!', 'You frabjous ass!', etc. etc., while the Nation listens to this big schoolboy in his pressed suit go on a tear.
It is nearly a shame to place a pin in his balloon for this kind of entertainment but is it not plausible to get both political parties to make him understand that he is not invincible, and it's long overtime for Hillary Clinton, Bernie Sanders and others to drum him out of town.
Thanking Ross Douthat and other journalists, the Media, our Comedians, all People to give it a try and awake us from our stupor.
The day that Mr. Trump speaks my mind, I shall return to the U.S. Government my birth certificate from New York. True, I caved in earlier and laughed at a photo of him because he reminds me of a favorite cartoon in a popular boys weekly which kept a generation of young British entertained and brought back fond memories of 'Billy Bunter, The Fat Owl' or 'The Owl of The Remove' at a school called Greyfriars. He looks rather stunned by his success and in full usage of 'What the Thump!', 'You frabjous ass!', etc. etc., while the Nation listens to this big schoolboy in his pressed suit go on a tear.
It is nearly a shame to place a pin in his balloon for this kind of entertainment but is it not plausible to get both political parties to make him understand that he is not invincible, and it's long overtime for Hillary Clinton, Bernie Sanders and others to drum him out of town.
Thanking Ross Douthat and other journalists, the Media, our Comedians, all People to give it a try and awake us from our stupor.
It's simple.
The anger is a product of media frenzy and a poor sense of history. We in America are relatively well-off. What we need is to adjust mentally to a sustainable future based on human values including sharing our wealth (of all sorts).
The anger is a product of media frenzy and a poor sense of history. We in America are relatively well-off. What we need is to adjust mentally to a sustainable future based on human values including sharing our wealth (of all sorts).
1
It is funny that so many media pundits are falling all over themselves trying to explain Trump and Sanders. Well perhaps we are changing as voters. There is no question that the parties spend a lot of money dazzling us with "issues" and the media wallows in "stories", most of which have nothing to do with serious political discourse which is what a democracy needs to work. Both sides have these issues, Benghazi, gun violence, vaccines, budget deficits, taxes, abortion etc. None of these things, which are pushed out at us every day are the real big issues. If you try real hard you can get to a discussion of the complicated issues such as: legislature comity, China and Asian ascendancy, climate change, Economic turmoil and income inequality. (what no ISIS, or TERRORISM).
I honestly think the world is much more complicated than we know and I think people are truly confused. What filters out to us is a pablum mix of half explanations and half truths. So, here comes Trump a well known media personality, good at self promotion, speaking the half explanations with much more entertaining gusto; and Sanders appealing to the progressives with wishful thinking of a Utopia which could never happen.
Jefferson realized that Democracy needed knowledge and Lincoln realized that you can fool all of the people some of the time. Our political machine has spent billions of dollars selling us politics like soap. But you can't fool us all, all of the time.
I honestly think the world is much more complicated than we know and I think people are truly confused. What filters out to us is a pablum mix of half explanations and half truths. So, here comes Trump a well known media personality, good at self promotion, speaking the half explanations with much more entertaining gusto; and Sanders appealing to the progressives with wishful thinking of a Utopia which could never happen.
Jefferson realized that Democracy needed knowledge and Lincoln realized that you can fool all of the people some of the time. Our political machine has spent billions of dollars selling us politics like soap. But you can't fool us all, all of the time.
1
The attempt to equate Sanders and Trump is dumb, even for a Republican, especially for a Republican of intelligence and education such as Douthat.
One is an experienced politician, the other is a TV stunt clown on a ego trip.
What they have in common is that both are longshots.
One is an experienced politician, the other is a TV stunt clown on a ego trip.
What they have in common is that both are longshots.
4
Russ, drop the "socialism" label. Sanders is a FDR style progressive and populist. Its used routinely by craven media types to avoid tackling the substance of his policy proposals. Comparing him to Trump is asinine, Trump has no meaningful policy proposals - nor frankly do the rest of his GOP fellow travelers - and if we were to sling labels around, we have a choice on the Republican side between several medieval theocrats, a fascistic demagogue and an assortment of drooling lap dogs for the Koch Brothers, Sheldon Adelman and other 0.1% ers...
5
Sanders himself says he is a socialist. You don't believe him?
Please, please stop putting Trump and Sanders in the same sentence. This seems to be the only way for the right to somehow come to terms with the rise of Trump and it is as misleading as the snake oil the right has been dishing out for the last 40 years. Sanders (and Hillary for that matter) are heads and shoulders above what the GOP has to offer. Sanders seems a lot more genuine in his positions whereas Hillary is more pragmatic, though a tad too hawkish for my tastes. Regardless, either will move us forward when compared to the alternatives.
3
If you want to explain the general current of right and left wing rebellion, then you want to look at the transformation in the way we communicate with each other. Every year, more of the electorate exchanges information thru internet and narrower cable outlets, leading to a sense of "EVERYONE agrees with me, but nothing gets done." College campuses have often been this way, and think how that plays out.
Read the posts of Trump (and Sanders) supporters and one of the most remarkable things is their certainty that everyone (or everyone with brain who is not corrupt) agrees with them. Delusions like this do not come from thin air, they come from insularity. They come from not having the personal experience of talking to good, hard-working people who can articulate how their crusade would cause grievous harm to their lives.
However, Sanders will almost certainly disappear (unless Hillary implodes on her own). Trump is another matter, and he as a particular candidate is best explained as a media phenomenon. Almost without exception, success at national politics has depended upon media skills for many decades now, Kennedy and Reagan being the famous, positive examples. Compared to his competition, Trump is a PhD at media use, and he is competing with a mixture of undergrads and high schoolers, making him very, very dangerous.
Read the posts of Trump (and Sanders) supporters and one of the most remarkable things is their certainty that everyone (or everyone with brain who is not corrupt) agrees with them. Delusions like this do not come from thin air, they come from insularity. They come from not having the personal experience of talking to good, hard-working people who can articulate how their crusade would cause grievous harm to their lives.
However, Sanders will almost certainly disappear (unless Hillary implodes on her own). Trump is another matter, and he as a particular candidate is best explained as a media phenomenon. Almost without exception, success at national politics has depended upon media skills for many decades now, Kennedy and Reagan being the famous, positive examples. Compared to his competition, Trump is a PhD at media use, and he is competing with a mixture of undergrads and high schoolers, making him very, very dangerous.
1
Decadence isn't the problem. It's a symptom of our dysfunction. And our government is dysfunctional because the GOP makes it so.
The leadership's goals are to slash taxes and regulations for the haves, end social spending for the have-nots, and use our military as if the quagmires of Vietnam, Iraq and Afghanistan never happened.
Republicans have assaulted our government for 36 years, making life harder for most and always finding scapegoats when their policies failed.
Donald Trump is taking advantage of the anger. Promises of a conservative utopia keep failing to materialize. Trump says he will fix this by sheer force of will.
Bernie Sanders is looking at our problems and proposing governmental solutions to fix them.
Trump would work around our democracy. Sanders within.
If there is decadence, it's the GOP's morally decadent inability to admit failure and take steps to change. Without that, as long as Republicans have power, our government and society will continue to decay.
Not taking action to change that is about as decadent as it gets.
The leadership's goals are to slash taxes and regulations for the haves, end social spending for the have-nots, and use our military as if the quagmires of Vietnam, Iraq and Afghanistan never happened.
Republicans have assaulted our government for 36 years, making life harder for most and always finding scapegoats when their policies failed.
Donald Trump is taking advantage of the anger. Promises of a conservative utopia keep failing to materialize. Trump says he will fix this by sheer force of will.
Bernie Sanders is looking at our problems and proposing governmental solutions to fix them.
Trump would work around our democracy. Sanders within.
If there is decadence, it's the GOP's morally decadent inability to admit failure and take steps to change. Without that, as long as Republicans have power, our government and society will continue to decay.
Not taking action to change that is about as decadent as it gets.
6
A society that's "seemingly unable to advance in the way that its citizens once took for granted" is constrained by the reality of a globalized economy dependent on dwindling global resources. And having fewer children and "diminished expectations for the future" are reasonable responses. Institutions that fail "to be effectively reformed" cannot be expected "to work particularly well" under permanent and structural slow-growth. Technological progress may disappoint when you compare it to the rapacious post-war economy, but the 20th century was an aberration - a final global gasp. A society that fights to a stalemate in its foreign wars is one step closer to accepting that war is no longer a useful tool. In the globalized economy all weapons are WMDs because all wars have global consequences.
2
I generally agree with Douthat's diagnosis of why we have many people gravitating to a neo-Fascist and a Democratic-Socialist. But, I do not agree with the implication that both are equally bad choices.
With Sanders, if was totally successful in bringing about his vision (which he would not be) the US would look more like Sweden or Norway. Much more socialist, more egalitarian, less belligerent. On the other hand, if Trump's vision prevailed we would look a lot more like Germany or Italy - in 1935. And that would be a lot worse than socialism.
With Sanders, if was totally successful in bringing about his vision (which he would not be) the US would look more like Sweden or Norway. Much more socialist, more egalitarian, less belligerent. On the other hand, if Trump's vision prevailed we would look a lot more like Germany or Italy - in 1935. And that would be a lot worse than socialism.
6
Rather than a way out of decadence, a favorite conservative term, voters are looking for a way out of complexity. Whatever problems we are confronting, they all appear to be very complex --- from the economy to foreign policy. The perceived ineffectiveness of government, is not the government's fault, but the reality that the problems it takes on are too complex to solve in a clean way. Trump and others offer religion, or carpet bombing, or single tax, that will clear away all the complex underbrush of a world that is just more complex than when I grew up. The challenge for the next president, which I feel President Obama recognizes, but does not frame well, is to continually educate our public on the world they now live in.
3
The complexity in the US is unique, and in many cases unnecessary.
My brother has has been helping his young immigrant nephew in-law, a 20-something from Belarus. The impression of an this intelligent young foreigner is that everything in the US is complicated beyond belief. Simple things like applying for a job, getting a driver's license, and buying a car are far more complicated than in any country he's lived in before. It seems like everyone needs a full-time lawyer and accountant in order to get through life.
It wasn't like this 50 years ago. I am amazed that less-able and poorly-educated people are able to get through life at all. Filling out a tax form, taking a simple loan, anything other than buying something in a store and paying cash, are complicated beyond belief. The elite upper-crust professionals who dreamed up all these forms and procedures has made life a slog for everyone else.
My brother has has been helping his young immigrant nephew in-law, a 20-something from Belarus. The impression of an this intelligent young foreigner is that everything in the US is complicated beyond belief. Simple things like applying for a job, getting a driver's license, and buying a car are far more complicated than in any country he's lived in before. It seems like everyone needs a full-time lawyer and accountant in order to get through life.
It wasn't like this 50 years ago. I am amazed that less-able and poorly-educated people are able to get through life at all. Filling out a tax form, taking a simple loan, anything other than buying something in a store and paying cash, are complicated beyond belief. The elite upper-crust professionals who dreamed up all these forms and procedures has made life a slog for everyone else.
1
Mr. Trump has a barker's way of saying I'm for you, but really if you defy me I'll crush you like a bug.
Bernie Sanders is trying to eliminate the welfare state as much as possible where people feel all the benefits of governance to someone else. Tax paid tuition to public universities produces professionals. Medicare For All, paid in by all, gives health insurance for all. These are just examples, but the thrust is to make more productive tax payers drawing down the number that have to be supported through our treasury. Every conservative should be for Bernie as he removes non tax payers and better employees and entrepreneurs.
Bernie Sanders is trying to eliminate the welfare state as much as possible where people feel all the benefits of governance to someone else. Tax paid tuition to public universities produces professionals. Medicare For All, paid in by all, gives health insurance for all. These are just examples, but the thrust is to make more productive tax payers drawing down the number that have to be supported through our treasury. Every conservative should be for Bernie as he removes non tax payers and better employees and entrepreneurs.
6
This is why as a Republican I could totally see myself voting for Bernie. Unlike Obama (an entirely different kind of liberal and democrat politics), Sanders doesn't genuinely doesn't pander to race politics. I personally love that. Sanders is a true liberal and in some parts, a conservative too. Do I want 90% socialism? No, but I like 75% of what Sanders says.
Obama and Clinton are cut from the same cloth. Or rather, bankrolled by the same camp. Perhaps the most dangerous types in our country too. Say what you want about the Koch brothers and die hard conservatives. They are kittens compared to the mindlessness of the James Buchanan or L.B.J. types; the category Obama and Clinton fall into. They are not "liberals" they are individuals that pander to liberal voters with false promises and singular issues creating a party of a whole bunch of one issue voters. Lover or hate Trump, he doesn't make these same promises. I think this is where a lot of young people and people in general differ on Clinton and Sanders. And why Trump is so appealing.
Obama and Clinton are cut from the same cloth. Or rather, bankrolled by the same camp. Perhaps the most dangerous types in our country too. Say what you want about the Koch brothers and die hard conservatives. They are kittens compared to the mindlessness of the James Buchanan or L.B.J. types; the category Obama and Clinton fall into. They are not "liberals" they are individuals that pander to liberal voters with false promises and singular issues creating a party of a whole bunch of one issue voters. Lover or hate Trump, he doesn't make these same promises. I think this is where a lot of young people and people in general differ on Clinton and Sanders. And why Trump is so appealing.
2
Personally, issues animating the groups aside, I find there to be little difference between Trump's and Sanders' follower. Both candidates are populists promising things they cannot deliver, and both groups of followers ignore that. And both groups offer pretty much the same opinion of HRC.
Trumps' folks point to legal and illegal immigration as threatening jobs but ignore offshoring. Sanders' folks vilify Wall Street while ignoring their own dependence on it. None of these complex issues will be affected by policy or who is President.
Trumps' folks point to legal and illegal immigration as threatening jobs but ignore offshoring. Sanders' folks vilify Wall Street while ignoring their own dependence on it. None of these complex issues will be affected by policy or who is President.
3
It is amusing to watch these "journalists" make attempts to explain that which they refuse to research and understand. Douthat does a good job at displaying the breadth of the ignorance involved: "The economic picture is better than it was in 2012...in both Iowa and New Hampshire the employment rate is under 4%." Wow. People make less, on average in wages. Fewer people work. While I can't say the unemployment rate is worse, that number is continuously and incrementally fudged to try and hide the problem from people because as currently defined, it is not a reference to how many people are actually working. No, what most people would think defines the unemployment is actually something that would require converging the unemployment rate and another term--participation rate. If the government says you are not participating, they do not have to count you in the unemployment rate. Whether people get this or not, and more and more they do as people are not stupid, they intrinsically get that the economy is not better, but worse. Unless you live in and around DC where trillions of tax dollars, real and imaginary, get spent and dumped into the local economy.
Douthat says the foreign policy situation is not as grim??? We are practically giving nukes to Iran. Putin is running around doing whatever the hell he wants with no checks on his power. It is freakin' scary stuff.
Do some research. Move away from DC/New York for a few months straight. Your eyes will open.
Douthat says the foreign policy situation is not as grim??? We are practically giving nukes to Iran. Putin is running around doing whatever the hell he wants with no checks on his power. It is freakin' scary stuff.
Do some research. Move away from DC/New York for a few months straight. Your eyes will open.
3
Frankly, I am tired of the fake equivalency argument, trying to find common ground between Sanders and Trump. There really isn't any and I wish these writers would stop forcing it. Sanders is an experienced senator with a vision; Trump is a blowhard who just wants to be elected to prove (to himself) that he is popular and that everyone loves him. He has no plan, is all bluster and hurt feelings. He has no internal compass or ability to self reflect.
What do supporters see? Bernie supporters see a different sort of future (whether or not is resemble mid-century Scandinavia, it is new and desirable to them). They undoubtedly understand at some level that Bernie would not be able to accomplish all that he suggests but they like the progressive direction and it is not, contrary to some reports, all pie in the sky. It has been done before. Donald supporters see a reality star, a hero of sorts who they think singlehandedly can conquer all - more on the order of a comic book hero, righting all wrongs. The fact that they don't even know the facts about what is actually wrong is immaterial. The fact that they believe in such a person is scary.
Dissatisfaction resides in both groups but that is where the similarity ends. Trump supporters relate to personal enemies and they espouse hatred and revenge. Sanders supporters are out to fix systemic issues.
Please stop writing articles that attempt to make these two candidates appealing to some sort of common set of complaints.
What do supporters see? Bernie supporters see a different sort of future (whether or not is resemble mid-century Scandinavia, it is new and desirable to them). They undoubtedly understand at some level that Bernie would not be able to accomplish all that he suggests but they like the progressive direction and it is not, contrary to some reports, all pie in the sky. It has been done before. Donald supporters see a reality star, a hero of sorts who they think singlehandedly can conquer all - more on the order of a comic book hero, righting all wrongs. The fact that they don't even know the facts about what is actually wrong is immaterial. The fact that they believe in such a person is scary.
Dissatisfaction resides in both groups but that is where the similarity ends. Trump supporters relate to personal enemies and they espouse hatred and revenge. Sanders supporters are out to fix systemic issues.
Please stop writing articles that attempt to make these two candidates appealing to some sort of common set of complaints.
11
I concur with Mr. Douthat's definition and description of our decadent society but this he misses one key difference between Mr. Trump and Mr. Sanders. The Donald denies the present realities of global climate change and the displacement of millions as a result of our failed policy based on American Exceptionalism. Mr. Sanders sees the need to address the consequences of climate change head on and seeks social and economic justice in our country and throughout the world. Instead of erecting walls around our country and between those who have what they need in our country an those who are suffering in poverty, Mr. Sanders envisions a world where America lends a helping hand to those in need. Their differences are far deeper than "Make America Great" and "Why not socialism?"
4
I think most Sanders supporters are disgusted by economic inequality. They want to change the system to make it more equitable for everyone. On the other hand, Trump supporters want to change the system, not so that it is more equitable, but so that the Trump voters can have a better chance of getting what they want.
Although I don't know who they are supporting, I believe the Bundy clan is a good micro-model of Trump voters. One, they believe in a romantic version of America, one in which an individual can raise themselves by their own bootstraps and anyone can become a millionaire, if they work hard enough. Two, they hate the federal government and miss the irony of their dependence upon it. Three, they believe that might makes right. Whether it's using an armed militia to take over a nature preserve or bloating our military spending so that we spend many times more than any other country in the world. Four, they believe that God is on their side. He doesn't mind their use of violence if it's for a good cause, like driving away federal agents trying to collect back taxes or terrorizing abortion providers. He supports their prejudices against lifestyles they don't like.
Perhaps America is as decadent as you say. Do we make it better by making the country more equitable or do we do it by listening to a God who almost always agrees with us?
Although I don't know who they are supporting, I believe the Bundy clan is a good micro-model of Trump voters. One, they believe in a romantic version of America, one in which an individual can raise themselves by their own bootstraps and anyone can become a millionaire, if they work hard enough. Two, they hate the federal government and miss the irony of their dependence upon it. Three, they believe that might makes right. Whether it's using an armed militia to take over a nature preserve or bloating our military spending so that we spend many times more than any other country in the world. Four, they believe that God is on their side. He doesn't mind their use of violence if it's for a good cause, like driving away federal agents trying to collect back taxes or terrorizing abortion providers. He supports their prejudices against lifestyles they don't like.
Perhaps America is as decadent as you say. Do we make it better by making the country more equitable or do we do it by listening to a God who almost always agrees with us?
6
America is the scientific technological socioeconomic political sectarian historical heir to classical Greece, classical Rome and the British Empire. A very complicated connected cultural moral heritage biologically balanced DNA genetic evolutionary natural progression.
The purpose of natural selection is to leave the most best adapted offspring over time and space. With 7.3 billion human beings on Earth and more Chinese and Indians than any other nation America is indeed "decadent." As the American European white majority is aging and shrinking with a below replacement level birthrate along with a high death rate due to alcoholism, drug addiction, suicide and poor healthcare.
The purpose of natural selection is to leave the most best adapted offspring over time and space. With 7.3 billion human beings on Earth and more Chinese and Indians than any other nation America is indeed "decadent." As the American European white majority is aging and shrinking with a below replacement level birthrate along with a high death rate due to alcoholism, drug addiction, suicide and poor healthcare.
3
Ironic that as we as a country become more liberal, alcoholism, drug addition and suicide is on the rise. Yet, we are not the largest population country based on mass size. We are truly suffering from elitist first world problems, those that are seeded on Democratic ideals. If anything this is what makes Hillary such a terrible candidate and no plan of action. More establishment politics and the status quo. It's no secret that China, India and regions of Africa and the Middle East are far overpopulated and suffer from a whole set of different issues. I think most of us are seeing this and we are not ok with just the status quo, the false promises of Obama's and his divisive politics. He created issues that didn't exist or need to exist. We are not ok with this. Hillary wants to continue on that same path. I am not ok with that.
2
Agreed with other readers. Trump and Sanders are not equivalent. Sanders wishes us to continue with the path FDR set us on, not the course Reagan veered off on. There is much distrust between classes. It contributes to gridlock in Washington. It's no accident that we see the economic inequality manifested in the US. A series of deliberate political decisions since Reagan moved us into this course. One could have predicted that following trickle down economic policies like deficit hawkishness during Americans would lead to a bad general state; it took a certain mentality of a certain class of people to insist that we needed to balance the budget when we should have more heavily invested in fixing America, creating more jobs, and thus wider spending. Our infrastructure is truly crumbling. Flint is a hint of the problem. Look at what's going on there and you find the tip of why America's got to really change. Somehow leadership looked the other way. We need a change of paradigm.
9
Meant to say deficit hawkishness during period of low interest rates led to a bad general state. Also Obama tried to tug in the correct direction but also fell victim to the deficit hawkishness arguments leading one to wonder to whom he was really beholden to in the end. He has in his last term tried to come back to his original more progressive vision.
1
"... both men are promising the implausible or the impossible"
Really? Sanders' main program points are free college tuition and universal healthcare. We know from decades-long experience and with empirical certainty that nations much less capable than the US are delivering just these things to their people, in the case of healthcare with far superior results at a small fraction of the cost.
To say we can't do the same is to put yourself in the camp of the flat-earthers -- not to mention condemning thousands of American families year after year to bankruptcy due to medical expenses while leaving millions uninsured and others to just die.
That said, I'll add that I admire Ross Douthat. He's my favorite columnist even though I fundamentally differ with him on many issues. I cannot believe he doesn't see the problem I've pointed out, particularly in regard to healthcare. So I'd merely ask: What is the deeper issue? Why does he believe, specifically in reference to healthcare, that what a wide variety of other countries have provided as a matter of course for decades is "implausible or impossible" here?
Really? Sanders' main program points are free college tuition and universal healthcare. We know from decades-long experience and with empirical certainty that nations much less capable than the US are delivering just these things to their people, in the case of healthcare with far superior results at a small fraction of the cost.
To say we can't do the same is to put yourself in the camp of the flat-earthers -- not to mention condemning thousands of American families year after year to bankruptcy due to medical expenses while leaving millions uninsured and others to just die.
That said, I'll add that I admire Ross Douthat. He's my favorite columnist even though I fundamentally differ with him on many issues. I cannot believe he doesn't see the problem I've pointed out, particularly in regard to healthcare. So I'd merely ask: What is the deeper issue? Why does he believe, specifically in reference to healthcare, that what a wide variety of other countries have provided as a matter of course for decades is "implausible or impossible" here?
11
That may be because of the huge amount we spend on healthcare. The annual cost is about $3 trillion, of which $1 trillion is currently covered by Medicare and Medicaid funded by crushing taxes. The $2 trillion that would be needed is about 25% of all wages and salaries. Even if we cut out 20% in administrative costs, a highly unlikely feat, we'd still be looking at 20% of all wages going to a new tax.
The other approach would be to cut costs. But since one man's cost is another man's income, that would also be very painful. Everyone in medicine has gotten used to high salaries, and they would resist vigorously.
The other approach would be to cut costs. But since one man's cost is another man's income, that would also be very painful. Everyone in medicine has gotten used to high salaries, and they would resist vigorously.
For what it's worth, I read the "implausible or impossible" in the political context -- i.e., many of their proposals just can't get enacted in the current (and near-future) environment. It's not that some of these proposals are undesirable to many in the electorate, but rather that Medicare-for-all and deporting 11 million undocumented just ain't gonna happen.
And on that score I think Ross is almost certainly correct.
And on that score I think Ross is almost certainly correct.
The mantra is that capitalists, those who have the funds, are the ones who create jobs. So, where are they? In China, in the Caymans? Government isn't supposed to be the job creator, so why blame it. The inability or unwillingness to use the market's resources is being blamed on over-taxation when we have corporations that pay no tax at all or pay a token amount. It's curious that Douthat instinctly connect social programs with decadence. He views modern society with a kind of Manichean perspective where capitalism is good and social reforms are bad, when there is no problem in having them co-exist. Social programs attenuate the asperities and unfairnesses inherent in capitalism, no more and no less, and they do not portend any descend into decadence. Just remember how Iowa defends with ferocity the subsidies of their ethanol production. And by the way, as the article says, Iowa has a 4% unemployment rate. So much for job killing legislation.
7
I contrast the superb quality of the Ellen Barry story on some Indian women's fight to work with the current work and wonder how both can exist in the same newspaper.
5
Ross, "midcentury Scandinavia"? "Impossible"?---So you throw age-related slurs and mis-characterizations in the wonderful Neoliberal Thatcher-esque way of saying that your failed Establishment and its economic ideology are "inevitable" and the rest of us should just accept it. Well guess what? The People have had it. I recommend that you go see the new documentary "Requiem for the American Dream". Listen to Chomsky, he'll clear up any confusion you might have about the nature of reality.
3
It takes someone particularly lacking in self awareness to write a column like this while utterly clueless regarding any realistic prescriptions. And this on top of representing the party of no and nothing and on top of that using denigrating language, "billionaire reality TV star and a septuagenarian Vermont socialist" Good going Ross and NYTs.
3
"Trump is offering nostalgia, but it’s not a true reactionary’s lament. He wants to take us back to a time when the future seemed great, amazing, fantastic."
That time was the 1950s. Sure the future looked great. But not if you were black, gay, or female.
That time was the 1950s. Sure the future looked great. But not if you were black, gay, or female.
4
Oh, Ross. When you equate Donald Trump's detail-challenged bluster and vanity show with Bernie Sanders' substantive diagnosis of our national malady you really show your hand. I get it that you hope both of them would go away and stop roiling the waters, as it's quite pleasant in here, thank you.
The economic picture is better? For the circles you move in, perhaps, but you need to head to Main Street, Anytown, USA if you want to understand this upheaval. I bet you'll pass. It's much easier to dismiss Bernie with the socialist label, but you have a surprise coming. The connotations of that word used to conjure up Castro and Kruschev, bomb shelters and gulags, and was quite effective, especially when capitalism was working well. That doesn't work anymore. Capitalism is broken, and you will not be able to dismiss this conversation that Bernie Sanders is insisting upon. Bless that septuagenarian! The times they are indeed a'changing, so for you who "prophesy with your pen: keep your eyes wide, the chance won't come again, and don't speak too soon for the wheel's still in spin, and there's no telling who that it's naming..." Feel the Bern
The economic picture is better? For the circles you move in, perhaps, but you need to head to Main Street, Anytown, USA if you want to understand this upheaval. I bet you'll pass. It's much easier to dismiss Bernie with the socialist label, but you have a surprise coming. The connotations of that word used to conjure up Castro and Kruschev, bomb shelters and gulags, and was quite effective, especially when capitalism was working well. That doesn't work anymore. Capitalism is broken, and you will not be able to dismiss this conversation that Bernie Sanders is insisting upon. Bless that septuagenarian! The times they are indeed a'changing, so for you who "prophesy with your pen: keep your eyes wide, the chance won't come again, and don't speak too soon for the wheel's still in spin, and there's no telling who that it's naming..." Feel the Bern
6
Once again, Douthat shows himself to be an inept, irresponsible, and indeed reprehensible dabbler in social commentary. Let's give him generous credit for approximately correctly describing what Larry Summers calls "secular stagnation" -- that's secular in an economist's sense, rather than in the sense of Douthat's obsessions. But Douthat then absurdly and uncharitably labels that "decadence".
Mr. Douthat, decadence is what the medieval popes wallowed in. Stressed families working two or three jobs to make ends meet is not decadence. If anything is now decadence, it is Douthat looking down his nose at efforts to make things better for the less fortunate while he himself neither toils nor does he spin; but every Sunday he is mere sounding brass or tinkling cymbal.
Mr. Douthat, decadence is what the medieval popes wallowed in. Stressed families working two or three jobs to make ends meet is not decadence. If anything is now decadence, it is Douthat looking down his nose at efforts to make things better for the less fortunate while he himself neither toils nor does he spin; but every Sunday he is mere sounding brass or tinkling cymbal.
6
Ross, please help us. The many paths up from decadence. Give us your best five. But can you do it without reverting to the ultra conservative, seriously religiously restrictive beliefs that prevent you from considering anything beyond rear mongering? So negative.
And you presume to speak for Trump's followers. You are incapable of putting yourself in anyone else's shoes. That frankly is why you are steadily sounding more and more like Fox's resident grump Krouthmmer (sp).
Loosen up. Move your pedestal down a few notches. You are too young to be so restrictive in your thinking.
And you presume to speak for Trump's followers. You are incapable of putting yourself in anyone else's shoes. That frankly is why you are steadily sounding more and more like Fox's resident grump Krouthmmer (sp).
Loosen up. Move your pedestal down a few notches. You are too young to be so restrictive in your thinking.
2
Could I sum up your column in the words, "Suck it up?" I hope not.
3
Where do I begin Mr. Douthat? Well at the every beginning, and that would be your title. Lumping Trump and Sanders as leaders of a revolt is incorrect. One has a policy position and some prescriptions; the other keeps making wild promises.
Grudgingly, very grudgingly, you note that the "worst-case scenarios of the post-Great Recession era haven’t materialized" and that "Obamacare is limping along without an imminent death spiral, and health care costs aren’t rising as fast as feared" and that "The deficit has fallen a bit, and inflation is extraordinarily low" and "Illegal immigration rates are down." Nowhere do you mention who was the President during this 7+ years when all of these things came to pas. And, may I add, in the face of the most obstructionist Congress and pundits (like you) railing against the President.
Isn't it time for you to take a bow to your President. Yes Mr. Dothat he is YOUR President. Acknowledge that, at least grudgingly, and take a bow.
Grudgingly, very grudgingly, you note that the "worst-case scenarios of the post-Great Recession era haven’t materialized" and that "Obamacare is limping along without an imminent death spiral, and health care costs aren’t rising as fast as feared" and that "The deficit has fallen a bit, and inflation is extraordinarily low" and "Illegal immigration rates are down." Nowhere do you mention who was the President during this 7+ years when all of these things came to pas. And, may I add, in the face of the most obstructionist Congress and pundits (like you) railing against the President.
Isn't it time for you to take a bow to your President. Yes Mr. Dothat he is YOUR President. Acknowledge that, at least grudgingly, and take a bow.
9
Things are not great, but they are not terrible like Syria and many other poorer and war torn countries. When people are drowning in the Mediterranean Sea in their search for a better life, we Americans have to appreciate our relatively stable country. Never forget to rejoice in what we do have. That is why when the Republican artificially create a gridlock and dysfunctional government, it is so abhorrent.
The constant over the top characterization of America in apocalyptic Armageddon terms from the Republican propaganda machinery affects not just the Right, it affects also the Left that sees half the country off the rail on unreal problems when real ones are unsolved.
So Douthat, whatever "decadence" or stagnation as one reader put it is, it is coming from YOUR side. YOUR obstructionism has obfuscated the harsh reality and causes of declining middle class. We cannot see that it is not just foreigners taking our jobs, neither is it just elite America short changing the working class.
Corporations ARE greedy with profit only as their prime directive; but they are also responding to a globalization of economy and techonology. When Capital flows around the globe freely, for Labor unions to work to protect workers, it needs to be globalized also.
As the Republican has created a non-thinking electorate, we fail to see that Capitalism means "dominance of capital," not free enterprise. When one side holds all the power, the system cannot be free.
Revolt? Do we KNOW to WHAT?
The constant over the top characterization of America in apocalyptic Armageddon terms from the Republican propaganda machinery affects not just the Right, it affects also the Left that sees half the country off the rail on unreal problems when real ones are unsolved.
So Douthat, whatever "decadence" or stagnation as one reader put it is, it is coming from YOUR side. YOUR obstructionism has obfuscated the harsh reality and causes of declining middle class. We cannot see that it is not just foreigners taking our jobs, neither is it just elite America short changing the working class.
Corporations ARE greedy with profit only as their prime directive; but they are also responding to a globalization of economy and techonology. When Capital flows around the globe freely, for Labor unions to work to protect workers, it needs to be globalized also.
As the Republican has created a non-thinking electorate, we fail to see that Capitalism means "dominance of capital," not free enterprise. When one side holds all the power, the system cannot be free.
Revolt? Do we KNOW to WHAT?
4
Thank you for joining the spirit gushing forth from new style debate formats. You see the possibilities arising from the insights brought forth from Bernie Sanders and Donald Trump. You and they embrace the can do ethic. Thank goodness you stay away from the politics of ridicule!
You have identified the prophets clearing the pathway leading to real political process!
You have identified the prophets clearing the pathway leading to real political process!
Here's a thought. Maybe things aren't coming undone, which is the underpinning of this column. Look back in history. The hyperbole that says things are going to hell is repeated pretty reliably every four years. Talk about decadence, reelecting Bill Clinton was going to cause a regeneration of the Visigoths. Reagan was a doddering fool who would blunder into another world war by putting up ABM satellites, Carter's weakness was going to let Iran conquer the Middle East, Nixon was the devil incarnate who was going to declare himself Imperator. None of these things happened. Maybe people, including bloviating columnists, should take a deep breath and calm down. Just a thought.
4
Why now? Because Obama's message of hope and change were stifled by a republican congress, and Obama can't run again.
13
Mr. Douthat, attempting to present Sanders and Trump as somehow equivalent is beyond absurd. It's either intentionally journalistically dishonest or extraordinarily lazy.
As I'm sure you've noticed, this gig you have going at the Times is going to get more and more difficult to sustain going forward. Trying to defend the indefensible of 30+ years of Republican orthodoxy and policy has got to be as close to the definition to a Sisyphean task as one can get. Might I suggest evolving a bit? You have talent as a writer, and your party sorely needs voices that don't sound like they come from an asylum.
As I'm sure you've noticed, this gig you have going at the Times is going to get more and more difficult to sustain going forward. Trying to defend the indefensible of 30+ years of Republican orthodoxy and policy has got to be as close to the definition to a Sisyphean task as one can get. Might I suggest evolving a bit? You have talent as a writer, and your party sorely needs voices that don't sound like they come from an asylum.
11
As usual, the "intellectuals" of the Republican Right are trying to figure out, or rationalize why a chump like Trump or everyone's crazy, but lovable Uncle Bernie are drawing voters away from corporate-representing main GOP and the boring, idea-less mainstream Democrats.
As Douthat and Brooks tip-toe around all the REAL reasons Trump is appealing. I see 3:
1) Overt racism has been percolating in the Republican party mainly since Reagan's play to the segregationists of Mississippi to kick his campaign off in 1980. It has gotten more blatant and Trump gleefully hits the stereotypes.
2) A virulent Australian fascist with insane amounts of money established a gigantic propaganda network and paid famous names so much money they'd sell their mother and their morals for it. Anyone remember when Brit Hume was a REAL journalist? Even Juan Williams decided to take the money and run. And this network has been the poisoning the news for over 20 years now.
3) If you think the Dems sold out to the corporations, it's nothing compared to the GOP. Imagine: They do back flips for ONE billionaire whose interests here and in a certain foreign nation are his religious vision, not what's best for the US or Israel. The FACT that there is an "Adelson Primary" is a disgrace to the nation.
But these foundation problems with the GOP are never addressed. (Yes, I KNOW the Dems have their own problems with who they are and represent, but this article is (mainly) about Republicans and their voters.)
As Douthat and Brooks tip-toe around all the REAL reasons Trump is appealing. I see 3:
1) Overt racism has been percolating in the Republican party mainly since Reagan's play to the segregationists of Mississippi to kick his campaign off in 1980. It has gotten more blatant and Trump gleefully hits the stereotypes.
2) A virulent Australian fascist with insane amounts of money established a gigantic propaganda network and paid famous names so much money they'd sell their mother and their morals for it. Anyone remember when Brit Hume was a REAL journalist? Even Juan Williams decided to take the money and run. And this network has been the poisoning the news for over 20 years now.
3) If you think the Dems sold out to the corporations, it's nothing compared to the GOP. Imagine: They do back flips for ONE billionaire whose interests here and in a certain foreign nation are his religious vision, not what's best for the US or Israel. The FACT that there is an "Adelson Primary" is a disgrace to the nation.
But these foundation problems with the GOP are never addressed. (Yes, I KNOW the Dems have their own problems with who they are and represent, but this article is (mainly) about Republicans and their voters.)
14
The reasons for all the angst and dissatisfaction with modern-day America are perhaps the same--no matter who you are. It's just that people on the left, and those on the right have different solutions.
The main problem is more of a sensation, rather than a list of concrete problems--and it's this; nothing is really getting better, no matter how much baloney we're being fed. There is nothing exciting going on in the economy, nothing to provide hope for a better future. We're stuck in neutral, in a malaise.
Unemployment and underemployment are still high. We know the official numbers are phony.
Housing has not rebounded all that much. Few people are under water, but not much is being built.
Incomes are not rising very much.
Our education system is still churning out idiots by the bushel basket.
Our infrastructure is falling apart.
NOTHING EVER GETS BETTER!!!!
Republicans want to rev up the economy through free-market capitalism. To lower taxes, reduce regulations--to grow the pie so we all get a bigger piece.
Democrats have no ideas for growing the pie--they just want to cut it up differently--parceling out ever-larger pieces to those who had no hand in baking it.
We're all frustrated and want change. At the end of the day, Americans want to feel hopeful again. That's why voters probably won't pick and establishment candidate--or electing an angry old hippy as a fix. Yes, that means no Bernie.
The main problem is more of a sensation, rather than a list of concrete problems--and it's this; nothing is really getting better, no matter how much baloney we're being fed. There is nothing exciting going on in the economy, nothing to provide hope for a better future. We're stuck in neutral, in a malaise.
Unemployment and underemployment are still high. We know the official numbers are phony.
Housing has not rebounded all that much. Few people are under water, but not much is being built.
Incomes are not rising very much.
Our education system is still churning out idiots by the bushel basket.
Our infrastructure is falling apart.
NOTHING EVER GETS BETTER!!!!
Republicans want to rev up the economy through free-market capitalism. To lower taxes, reduce regulations--to grow the pie so we all get a bigger piece.
Democrats have no ideas for growing the pie--they just want to cut it up differently--parceling out ever-larger pieces to those who had no hand in baking it.
We're all frustrated and want change. At the end of the day, Americans want to feel hopeful again. That's why voters probably won't pick and establishment candidate--or electing an angry old hippy as a fix. Yes, that means no Bernie.
7
Jesse,
You state "Republicans want to grow the pie" and then go on to state their failed, Ann Rand fantasy policies of lower taxes and less regulation will deliver this. In fact, any serious analysis shows that this delivers all the pie to the top 1% and the crumbs to 99%. There is nothing conservative about that as it will lead to a stagnating economy as overall demand falls. Time to wake up from dreamland and admit that supply side economic theory is a failed ideology and start focusing on real world solutions!
You state "Republicans want to grow the pie" and then go on to state their failed, Ann Rand fantasy policies of lower taxes and less regulation will deliver this. In fact, any serious analysis shows that this delivers all the pie to the top 1% and the crumbs to 99%. There is nothing conservative about that as it will lead to a stagnating economy as overall demand falls. Time to wake up from dreamland and admit that supply side economic theory is a failed ideology and start focusing on real world solutions!
3
"Republicans want to rev up the economy through free-market capitalism. To lower taxes, reduce regulations--to grow the pie so we all get a bigger piece."
Trickle down economics has been going at full tilt in this country for over 30 years. Take a look around you - these are the results of that experiment. For a more focused and recent example, take a look at Kansas. Governor Brownback's self-described conservative experiment in conservative ideology has pushed the state budget to near insolvency for over three years running now. Cutting taxes for the wealthy while cutting funds for education and public works like highways isn't sound economic policy - it's theft.
Trickle down economics has been going at full tilt in this country for over 30 years. Take a look around you - these are the results of that experiment. For a more focused and recent example, take a look at Kansas. Governor Brownback's self-described conservative experiment in conservative ideology has pushed the state budget to near insolvency for over three years running now. Cutting taxes for the wealthy while cutting funds for education and public works like highways isn't sound economic policy - it's theft.
1
The problem with "revving up the economy through free-market capitalism" is that this is exactly what's been going on for the last 30 years. Lower taxes on top earners, business-friendly Democrats and Republicans in the White House, deregulation, international trade agreements, etc..
And it's "worked," only not in the way Jesse the Conservative says it should.
Top corporations and individuals have indeed been revved up. People at the top are richer, by far, than ever. But gee whiz Jesse, why hasn't all that revving benefited the 99%?
Do you think if we lower taxes and deregulate yet more, suddenly your trickle-down theory will start to work?
Not buying it. The winners in this "free-market capitalist" society have figured out how to buy the politicians and write the laws to insure that all the benefits they reap will NOT trickle down. The whole point of their lobbying, legislative, legal, and financial dominance is to insure that as little trickles down (and out of their own pockets) as possible.
The hard fact is that we have far lower tax rates, weaker regulations, and more incentives to win and take all than we had during the great Post-War Boom. And that this hasn't translated into greater prosperity for the average person. The very opposite has resulted.
And it's "worked," only not in the way Jesse the Conservative says it should.
Top corporations and individuals have indeed been revved up. People at the top are richer, by far, than ever. But gee whiz Jesse, why hasn't all that revving benefited the 99%?
Do you think if we lower taxes and deregulate yet more, suddenly your trickle-down theory will start to work?
Not buying it. The winners in this "free-market capitalist" society have figured out how to buy the politicians and write the laws to insure that all the benefits they reap will NOT trickle down. The whole point of their lobbying, legislative, legal, and financial dominance is to insure that as little trickles down (and out of their own pockets) as possible.
The hard fact is that we have far lower tax rates, weaker regulations, and more incentives to win and take all than we had during the great Post-War Boom. And that this hasn't translated into greater prosperity for the average person. The very opposite has resulted.
Why now? Because your gang, Ross, has piled the garbage that passes for political commentary up so high it cuts off the flow of oxygen to whatever brains some people might have had. Many Americans are notoriously deprived of knowledge of their system of governance. Take a subset so afflicted and add the factors of arrogant impatience and the sense of inerrancy typical of the young (remembering myself!) and we get the mirror-images of Trump and Sanders supporters charging for the cliffs.
Thousands of person-hours (!) have been spent deconstructing the mess we've been put in by the GOP at the behest of Big Money. Yet columnists like Douthat persist in their denial of responsibility. They persist in pompous analysis of the guts of the road-kill that is the GOP. They are not alone. These comments sections are populated by many sincere GOP supporters who are also in denial.
Leaders used to lead. We know of good leaders and of evil leaders. What do we call leaders who refuse to lead except towards greater ignorance and irrelevance? We are headed for an election with only one credible candidate for POTUS, and for Congressional elections that have been relegated to oblivion by the masters of the universe, the TV moguls. And the Actor goes to…
Thousands of person-hours (!) have been spent deconstructing the mess we've been put in by the GOP at the behest of Big Money. Yet columnists like Douthat persist in their denial of responsibility. They persist in pompous analysis of the guts of the road-kill that is the GOP. They are not alone. These comments sections are populated by many sincere GOP supporters who are also in denial.
Leaders used to lead. We know of good leaders and of evil leaders. What do we call leaders who refuse to lead except towards greater ignorance and irrelevance? We are headed for an election with only one credible candidate for POTUS, and for Congressional elections that have been relegated to oblivion by the masters of the universe, the TV moguls. And the Actor goes to…
4
Left out of the essay was the white blue-collar revolt against the Republican establishment. They're not buying the usual Republican election-time snake oil. The establishment Republicans' problem is that they are buying Donald Trump's snake oil; by the truck load.
Left out of the essay is the gerrymandered Republican refusal to govern; denial of climate change, failure to offer any alternative to ACA, glorifying fruitless, endless warfare, the exporting of jobs while cutting education, and on and on. Over it all is the black cloud of grotesque income inequality.
Left out of the essay was Republican refusal to accept any responsibility. For anything.
Left out of the essay is Douthat's conservative know-it-all smugness rings hollow.
Left out of the essay is the gerrymandered Republican refusal to govern; denial of climate change, failure to offer any alternative to ACA, glorifying fruitless, endless warfare, the exporting of jobs while cutting education, and on and on. Over it all is the black cloud of grotesque income inequality.
Left out of the essay was Republican refusal to accept any responsibility. For anything.
Left out of the essay is Douthat's conservative know-it-all smugness rings hollow.
7
"But why is everything boiling over in this particular cycle, in this presidential campaign?"
Is it possible that, in the strength of both Trump's and Sanders' campaigns, lies voters response to Citizens United?
Perhaps voters get how they've been disenfranchised by Citizens United. They can't overturn that ruling, not now, and not directly. But they can express their anger by dumping candidates clearly enabled by Supreme Court empowered oligarchs.
That Donald Trump is himself a billionaire is not a contradiction. There is a difference between the billionaire enabled puppet Marco Rubio, and a billionaire like Trump who, like him or not (I don't.) puts his money where his mouth is, and puts himself out for evaluation and judgement, rather than hiding behind some obsequious creature like Rubio.
Being backed by billionaires is probably enough for candidates to put off many, if not most, prospective voters. Jeb Bush, for one, has a host of other baggage, but he's clearly not "his own man," despite his ludicrous protestations to the contrary. Cruz, Rubio and Clinton are certainly not candidates of the people.
Ironically, Senator Sanders is the only candidate, other than Trump, who is not owned, not paid for, by special, narrow interests.
So, it makes sense that "everything is boiling over" in this campaign.
Is it possible that, in the strength of both Trump's and Sanders' campaigns, lies voters response to Citizens United?
Perhaps voters get how they've been disenfranchised by Citizens United. They can't overturn that ruling, not now, and not directly. But they can express their anger by dumping candidates clearly enabled by Supreme Court empowered oligarchs.
That Donald Trump is himself a billionaire is not a contradiction. There is a difference between the billionaire enabled puppet Marco Rubio, and a billionaire like Trump who, like him or not (I don't.) puts his money where his mouth is, and puts himself out for evaluation and judgement, rather than hiding behind some obsequious creature like Rubio.
Being backed by billionaires is probably enough for candidates to put off many, if not most, prospective voters. Jeb Bush, for one, has a host of other baggage, but he's clearly not "his own man," despite his ludicrous protestations to the contrary. Cruz, Rubio and Clinton are certainly not candidates of the people.
Ironically, Senator Sanders is the only candidate, other than Trump, who is not owned, not paid for, by special, narrow interests.
So, it makes sense that "everything is boiling over" in this campaign.
5
To not mention the role of a record-setting do-nothing Republican Congress (that is proud of being the Party of No) for American dissatisfaction and anger is simply a negligent (deliberate?) omission by Douthat.
A ideological Republican Congress surely is responsible for most of our current malaise and anger. Look at the ratings of the Republican Congress with Americans - they continue to be at an all time low.
Why in God's name do they get a free pass, and President Obama gets blamed for the incredible progress in all areas (the economy, curtailing wars and our soldiers' deaths in the middle east etc.) despite their being the Party of No and Do-Nothing?
Republicans promised if we only elected them to Congress they would make all kinds of progress in all areas. Well they have done nothing but vote for the gazzillionth time to repeal the legally-passed by Congress and upheld by the Supreme Court Affordable Care Act. That's it.
And they want us to vote for them again? What's that about fool me twice? How about fooling us for the hundredth time?
A ideological Republican Congress surely is responsible for most of our current malaise and anger. Look at the ratings of the Republican Congress with Americans - they continue to be at an all time low.
Why in God's name do they get a free pass, and President Obama gets blamed for the incredible progress in all areas (the economy, curtailing wars and our soldiers' deaths in the middle east etc.) despite their being the Party of No and Do-Nothing?
Republicans promised if we only elected them to Congress they would make all kinds of progress in all areas. Well they have done nothing but vote for the gazzillionth time to repeal the legally-passed by Congress and upheld by the Supreme Court Affordable Care Act. That's it.
And they want us to vote for them again? What's that about fool me twice? How about fooling us for the hundredth time?
4
The only similarity between Trump & Sanders is that the Times believes (in the face of the evidence to the contrary) they are both unelectable. Trump does happen (I use that word because his statements do not arise out of a reasoned philosophy or even a clear look at any portion of our political reality) to speak to the incoherent anger of disenfranchised white people who feel they were lied to about the lasting value of their disappearing privilege, but his rantings range from incoherent to mendacious. Sanders, on the other hand, is an experienced politician with a clear view of the huge issues of political and economic injustice facing the country, an understanding of how we got to this point, and a coherent plan for how to address these issues. It is disingenuous to continue to pretend that they are similar in any way. And that pretension invalidates any analysis based on it.
3
I think the public is discouraged by the extreme wings of both parties. For decades we had to endure the nagging of the Rebublican religious right and now we have to contend with the extreme left' offensive politically correct group think; microaggressions and safe rooms on campuses, severely limiting freedom and speech.
Washington, rather than cooperating and compromising in order to govern, is locked in a hate fest; closing down the government rather than compromising. The Republicans have ,over the past few decades, refused to accept democratic presidents as legitimate. Democrats are contemptuous of Republicans.
Republicans say they are " conservative" but they are not. They are radicals because they want to throw out rather than tweet, destroy rather than compromise. True conservatives, like myself, do not believe in destroying , they believe in slowly adjusting towards change. They would have recognized that Obamacare is a conservative effort because it retained some of the current system and they would have insisted on being a part of the discussion , not simply a force for blind hatred.
Why doesn't the Republican elite push for Kasich? Because he accepted federal money for Obamacare because he believed it was the right thing to do. Kasich is the only Republican candidate who is a true conservative and yet these radicals who say they are conservatives, refuse to endorse him.
Yes, we are all, democrats and republicans, discouraged and angry.
Washington, rather than cooperating and compromising in order to govern, is locked in a hate fest; closing down the government rather than compromising. The Republicans have ,over the past few decades, refused to accept democratic presidents as legitimate. Democrats are contemptuous of Republicans.
Republicans say they are " conservative" but they are not. They are radicals because they want to throw out rather than tweet, destroy rather than compromise. True conservatives, like myself, do not believe in destroying , they believe in slowly adjusting towards change. They would have recognized that Obamacare is a conservative effort because it retained some of the current system and they would have insisted on being a part of the discussion , not simply a force for blind hatred.
Why doesn't the Republican elite push for Kasich? Because he accepted federal money for Obamacare because he believed it was the right thing to do. Kasich is the only Republican candidate who is a true conservative and yet these radicals who say they are conservatives, refuse to endorse him.
Yes, we are all, democrats and republicans, discouraged and angry.
4
Elsa,
What you are calling one extreme is very centrist in all the Western democracies. Here in Canada our centrist Liberal Party ran to the left of our socialists last election. Nothing Senator Sanders proposes is extreme in fact much of what he advocates has been conservative policy for decades.
John Kasich on the other hand would be an extremist in the centrist conservative parties of most if not all Western democracies.
It is 2016 and the United States of America seems closer to Putin's Russia than anything we see in Japan , Western Europe or Canada.
What you are calling one extreme is very centrist in all the Western democracies. Here in Canada our centrist Liberal Party ran to the left of our socialists last election. Nothing Senator Sanders proposes is extreme in fact much of what he advocates has been conservative policy for decades.
John Kasich on the other hand would be an extremist in the centrist conservative parties of most if not all Western democracies.
It is 2016 and the United States of America seems closer to Putin's Russia than anything we see in Japan , Western Europe or Canada.
2
I don't see the common thread between Trump and Sanders supporters as sensing decadence. Rather, it's impotence. Governance -- the actual making and implementation of laws and policy -- is dictated by Super PACs and lobbyists who hold the pursestrings to campaign dollars. Trump offers himself as a way out from under Big Money because, he claims, he doesn't need it. Sanders obviously doesn't claim to be richer than the Kochs and Adelsons of the world. But if you listen to his speeches, the foundation that makes his vision of economic reform seem even remotely posssible is campaign finance reform.
I think that people attracted by either, (or any?) candidate's message must first consider whether that candidate offers a realistic path to repairing the fractured system of legalized bribery that currently shapes our democratic process.
I think that people attracted by either, (or any?) candidate's message must first consider whether that candidate offers a realistic path to repairing the fractured system of legalized bribery that currently shapes our democratic process.
4
Decadence? The moniker doesn't fit. "Stagnation" is what Ross seems to be describing. What he misses on the right is the visceral distaste of the rural, exurban voter for elites and all their baubles, e.g. Good jobs in communications, information tech, consulting, etc coupled with their insistence on organic grass fed range free chickens and gluten free micro brew! Couple these social resentments with declining well paid job opportunities (from widget maker to "widget" greeter at Walmart) you get a toxic concoction. On the left, expectations of prosperity are similarly dashed by money market manipulators whom wise uncle Bernie will tame. If there is decadence here, it is the "more lard for fatty" creed of Ross' party rooted in Senator Nelson Aldrich/Bob Taft branch of the GOP.
4
America was lead down the road of decadence in the 1980s when very rich segment of the population was able to convince a very large segment of the population that "government is the problem" while simultaneously rewriting the rules of government to benefit themselves exclusively. They have done this though a concerted campaign of misinformation and distraction and by keeping the citizenry uninformed, frustrated, and divided. It's all smoke and mirrors. What this country needs is a Dorothy to pull back the curtain.
7
No dear boy, the reason that 1/3 of Republican voters are enthralled with Donald Trump is because they are dumb as rocks. In an effort to compensate for their long term demographic problem of attracting mostly older white voters, Republicans have been recruiting the really dumb people of our country that would normally not vote. Think Tea Party. As far as I can see, these people are incapable of stringing together two complete logical sentences in a row. Think Sarah Palin. The respond to political arguments that are less than complete sentences because sentences are hard. Think, 'repeal and replace'.
Now, I think you are right about the Sanders crowd, but grouping them with the truly stupid is very unfair.
Now, I think you are right about the Sanders crowd, but grouping them with the truly stupid is very unfair.
6
Puleeze!! Stop already with the false equivalence. Trump and Sanders have nothing in common and don't represent different "visions of the future." Trump has no vision or policies.
You claim that both Trump and Sanders have unrealistic proposals. Trump has no proposals and Sanders has specific, perfectly plausible policy positions.
The fact that our "sclerotic and corrupt" politicians may not enact Sanders' vision does not mean that it cannot be enacted. Every single thing Sanders proposes is legitimate and easily accomplished, if we can wrest back our society from money and cronyism and restore the social contract, progressive taxation and all.
Even a specific issue like health care is misrepresented. We could enact single payer health care for all and save money over the long term. We could enact single payer health care for a fraction of the bloated, unnecessary spending on defense.
If we were an honest society we would admit that we simply don't want to provide universal health care for all. We have been bamboozled into thinking we live in a meritocracy, and therefore we have no responsibility for the commonweal.
You claim that both Trump and Sanders have unrealistic proposals. Trump has no proposals and Sanders has specific, perfectly plausible policy positions.
The fact that our "sclerotic and corrupt" politicians may not enact Sanders' vision does not mean that it cannot be enacted. Every single thing Sanders proposes is legitimate and easily accomplished, if we can wrest back our society from money and cronyism and restore the social contract, progressive taxation and all.
Even a specific issue like health care is misrepresented. We could enact single payer health care for all and save money over the long term. We could enact single payer health care for a fraction of the bloated, unnecessary spending on defense.
If we were an honest society we would admit that we simply don't want to provide universal health care for all. We have been bamboozled into thinking we live in a meritocracy, and therefore we have no responsibility for the commonweal.
8
This continuing effort of many commentators to find the commonalities between factions running headlong in different, nearly-but-not-precisely-opposite directions, glosses over the fundamentals of America's political and social schisms. And it's not simply right vs. left; there's at least three, maybe four mob psychologies in play. They aren't running away from the same thing, they are running away from each other. The basic value systems are not merely different, they're nearly wholly incompatible.
Decadence? That's stretching a definition in so many contradictory directions that the word means absolutely nothing.
Decadence? That's stretching a definition in so many contradictory directions that the word means absolutely nothing.
6
Perhaps, in the case of Trump anyway, Americans are simple demonstrating their desire to be continually entertained and their inability to figure out that the presidency isn't just another borscht belt venue where a silver spoon vulgarian turned insult comic can simply say it and make it so. Anyone who suggests Putin is "well respected" in the world (and those that believe such nonsense) needs his flaming head examined. At least Bernie is spreading ideas rather than reinforcing hatred.
7
It is amazing that Bernie's socialism is so popular, given that America has made it a bad word. We are finally dealing with the issues. Only Sanders will make things better. The ACA crisis, with insurance companies making even more money, while the people pay exorbitant premiums, exclusions, deductibles and copays has galvanized Americans for an overhaul of the whole system. Bernie is the only candidate who would make health care available to everyone. The only system that will do that, given the intransigence of the insurance and health care "industries" is single payer, and the people want real health care.
9
7 years of 2% growth with no growth in wages (in fact a decline for the average American family) and a sense that whatever prosperity that is occurring is flowing to other people has created two groups of very angry people.
Those two groups are respectively Trump supporters and Sanders supporters. The failure of Obama's economic's policies to grow the economy at a more normal 3% or even 4% (normal for coming out of a major recession) has created both of these groups.
Obama's legacy is the the candidate who ran as the "great uniter" has governed as the most divisive President in history. No previous President has created a bigger mess for his successor to clean up.
Those two groups are respectively Trump supporters and Sanders supporters. The failure of Obama's economic's policies to grow the economy at a more normal 3% or even 4% (normal for coming out of a major recession) has created both of these groups.
Obama's legacy is the the candidate who ran as the "great uniter" has governed as the most divisive President in history. No previous President has created a bigger mess for his successor to clean up.
Rot.
6
No president has left a bigger mess? What about the one left for Obama? He took office with the economy losing 700,000 jobs a month and the country mired in two wars we couldn't win started by his predecessor.
2
so obama inheriting the near total collapse of the american economy from bush was not a big mess. keep watching hannity and o'reilly
3
"So what are Trumpistas and Bern-feelers rebelling against?"
Asking the very question - with Ross Douthat the one asking - proves the insubstantial nature of the fear-mongered, faux-angry spell that people fancy themselves under.
Yes, America, you ARE better off than you were 4 years ago. Compared to the war-torn, economic mess of 8 years ago, America, you're a patient with a miracle cure.
And this recovery has been in spite of the party-wide, obstructionist pact sworn to by the G.O.P. party bosses on January 20, 2009 at The Caucus Room restaurant in Washington, DC, just down the hill from the Capitol building. Over steaks and cocktails, the Republican head-shed agreed among themselves to filibuster and obstruct any and all legislation supported by President Obama.
Looking at America now, it is clear that President Obama won.
Has everything been perfect? Was economic recovery from the Great Bush Recession swift enough? Republican obstructionism is to blame, if not. Their sworn goal was to hand America a big plate of disaffected angst. They wanted government to look like it couldn't work.
And even though President Obama has come out on top, The Mighty Do-Nothing 112th and The Fearsome Do-Even-Less 113th Republican Congresses succeeded in sowing much fear and anger into America's heartland soil.
The only legitimate rebellion of voters is against the party that created a climate in which fear, faux-anger, and evangelicalism can serve as a strategic triad to win votes.
Asking the very question - with Ross Douthat the one asking - proves the insubstantial nature of the fear-mongered, faux-angry spell that people fancy themselves under.
Yes, America, you ARE better off than you were 4 years ago. Compared to the war-torn, economic mess of 8 years ago, America, you're a patient with a miracle cure.
And this recovery has been in spite of the party-wide, obstructionist pact sworn to by the G.O.P. party bosses on January 20, 2009 at The Caucus Room restaurant in Washington, DC, just down the hill from the Capitol building. Over steaks and cocktails, the Republican head-shed agreed among themselves to filibuster and obstruct any and all legislation supported by President Obama.
Looking at America now, it is clear that President Obama won.
Has everything been perfect? Was economic recovery from the Great Bush Recession swift enough? Republican obstructionism is to blame, if not. Their sworn goal was to hand America a big plate of disaffected angst. They wanted government to look like it couldn't work.
And even though President Obama has come out on top, The Mighty Do-Nothing 112th and The Fearsome Do-Even-Less 113th Republican Congresses succeeded in sowing much fear and anger into America's heartland soil.
The only legitimate rebellion of voters is against the party that created a climate in which fear, faux-anger, and evangelicalism can serve as a strategic triad to win votes.
8
Once again Douthat seems to have intentionally misunderstood the American mood. Specifically he ignores completely the role he and his Republican compatriots have played in this disappointment. It began most recently with Mitch McConnell's pledge in 2009 to oppose everything Obama proposed or supported for no other reason that perceived political gain. That posture began the slow poisoning of the American political culture. Pointless resistance coupled with over-the-top rhetoric pounded for years into ears aggravated by an inactive congress. Mitch and his enablers like Ross have created a world of nasty, negative political posturing that has no room for policy, justice or fairness. They are, like Trump, only about winning. And therein lies the seeds of damage--a single minded view that this is a zero sum game that some must lose for others to win. How wrongheaded and fundamentally un-American.
10
This is such classic conservative tripe that I wonder that Douthat can take a subway ride in rush hour -does he ever? -and see how working peole are suffering, and yet write such an op-Ed without turning beet red with shame. Decadence? You are looking at and hearing the result of 30 years of systematic undermining of the American working and middle-classes, and profiling of a small upper-upper middle that is truly wasteful and decadent.
Try walking into Barney's, or a private upper-east side spa or gym, on any weekday morning - or visit St. Kitt's or Turks and Caicos during the private school break next month - and then tell me that it is ordinary Americans who are decadent, Ross. It isn't my cousin, who at 62 may lose her secretarial job of 15 years and never find another, who is purchasing those $900 Jimmy Choos, or being wrapped in seaweed after her private Pilates lesson.
Unfortunately, less educated Amercians continue to support the very candidates whose big money backers have, though one-sided banking practices, a low minimum wage, ruined unions - to name a few tactics of the right - bankrupted the middle class. Trump is a symptom of the desperation and ignorance -not decadence -or ordinary people.
Maybe, instead of sermonizing to the masses, Ross, you should get your rich buddies and the hypocrites who shill for them to go to confession - and then learn from religious teachings, instead of exploiting those beliefs to further beat up the victims.
Try walking into Barney's, or a private upper-east side spa or gym, on any weekday morning - or visit St. Kitt's or Turks and Caicos during the private school break next month - and then tell me that it is ordinary Americans who are decadent, Ross. It isn't my cousin, who at 62 may lose her secretarial job of 15 years and never find another, who is purchasing those $900 Jimmy Choos, or being wrapped in seaweed after her private Pilates lesson.
Unfortunately, less educated Amercians continue to support the very candidates whose big money backers have, though one-sided banking practices, a low minimum wage, ruined unions - to name a few tactics of the right - bankrupted the middle class. Trump is a symptom of the desperation and ignorance -not decadence -or ordinary people.
Maybe, instead of sermonizing to the masses, Ross, you should get your rich buddies and the hypocrites who shill for them to go to confession - and then learn from religious teachings, instead of exploiting those beliefs to further beat up the victims.
11
I don’t think it is possible to discern one overarching reason for the ennui plaguing Americans. If there were I would pick we’re nuts over concerns about decadence but both are glib explanations for what’s going on. Different groups have different reasons for being pessimistic. Young people saddled with a mountain of debt for an education that does them little good in today’s economy are scared about what kind of future they will have with wages stagnating and global temperatures rising. Uneducated working class Americans are wondering where all the manufacturing jobs have gone and where all the immigrants have come from. African Americans are worried they will never rise up from the drug and violence infested ghettos they find themselves stuck in and wonder if white America wants them to. Whites are exasperated and tired of being blamed for everybody’s problems. Women are still saddled with doing it all, all the housework, childcare, and eldercare all while being required to have a career. We still haven’t figured out gender roles in an age of modern feminism. Lastly, we are all terrified of becoming the victim of random violence from terrorists, the mentally ill, criminals and even the cops.
What we are seeing this year is a perfect storm of dissatisfaction. We all have the feeling that something is wrong but I don’t think anyone really knows what to change, hence Trump and Sanders. In 2016, America is having a collective primal scream.
What we are seeing this year is a perfect storm of dissatisfaction. We all have the feeling that something is wrong but I don’t think anyone really knows what to change, hence Trump and Sanders. In 2016, America is having a collective primal scream.
130
decadence: ''Moral or cultural decline as characterized by excessive indulgence in pleasure or luxury''
There is a pretty small slice of Americans who are capable of ''excessive indulgence in pleasure or luxury.''
Unfortunately, that small slice includes America's leadership class, business and government, Republican and Democrat. Our leaders, while enjoying excessively indulgent lives, have done nothing to improve the lot of most Americans for two generations.
For Republicans, this is a direct product of a successful, multi-decade effort to distract voters from their own best interests (''What's the Matter with Kansas?'') Divisive issues that are proclaimed to be hugely important (welfare queens, same sex marriage, etc) really aren't, but are effective at diverting attention from policies that favor only the already rich.
For Democrats, this is the abject failure to respond effectively to the Republican strategy, attempting to ''triangulate'' rather than standing with working people and the middle class. The Republican playbook has been known for decades, but Democrats have not yet been able to organize themselves to meet the challenge.
Why are people so angry? Because their government is not working for them any more.
Why is government not working for the people? That is by design of our self-interested leaders.
There is a pretty small slice of Americans who are capable of ''excessive indulgence in pleasure or luxury.''
Unfortunately, that small slice includes America's leadership class, business and government, Republican and Democrat. Our leaders, while enjoying excessively indulgent lives, have done nothing to improve the lot of most Americans for two generations.
For Republicans, this is a direct product of a successful, multi-decade effort to distract voters from their own best interests (''What's the Matter with Kansas?'') Divisive issues that are proclaimed to be hugely important (welfare queens, same sex marriage, etc) really aren't, but are effective at diverting attention from policies that favor only the already rich.
For Democrats, this is the abject failure to respond effectively to the Republican strategy, attempting to ''triangulate'' rather than standing with working people and the middle class. The Republican playbook has been known for decades, but Democrats have not yet been able to organize themselves to meet the challenge.
Why are people so angry? Because their government is not working for them any more.
Why is government not working for the people? That is by design of our self-interested leaders.
27
What ails us cannot be fixed without a Constitutional Convention, see Mark Levin. We need public financing of campaigns. Let the people decide (instead of unelected judges) within their states on the hot-button issues (eg., abortion, gay marriage). People have to be given jobs, not welfare (plenty of ways to pay for this, and the economy would grow). It should be easier to fire government employees, and they should never be paid more than the private sector (including benefits). There should be national service (2 years, military allowed but not required, postponements but not exemptions except for those working in healthy field or education, which is a type of public service). The borders should be closed and immigration laws enforced. Public policies (including the tax code) should encourage marriage, instead of work against it (as they now do). Christians (and people of other faiths) should not be required to act against their conscience--say, forced to participate in a gay marriage by selling services to the participants. We need to stop aborting babies. We need God to bless this country, and He will not bless a nation that is harming children. Yes, there are extreme cases, but the current set of practices is going to get a Divine rebuke. In other words, God cares about all of us and our actions, include our actions toward the unborn. We all need to pray, repent, join an organized, peace-loving religious institution and "pitch in" to help the less fortunate.
Bernie Sanders' presidential campaign reminds me of another presidential campaign that captured the hearts and minds of a "younger generation" from a very troubled period in our nation's history. I'm speaking of George McGovern's 1972 presidential campaign.
For those of you who were not alive back then, George McGovern, a Democratic Senator from South Dakota, was the popular choice for President among the young and disaffected.
At the time, I believe the assassination of John F. Kennedy, along with a growing popular movement against the Vietnam war, were largely responsible for creating an increasing amount of social unrest. An emerging "counter-culture" that rejected the materialistic values of what increasingly felt like a "decadent society" was beginning to take shape, threatening the political power structure of the period.
Richard Nixon was running for his second term. (Watergate had not yet surfaced.) George McGovern connected with those of us who felt alienated by what felt like a corrupt system. He won his party's nomination but lost the general election to Nixon, winning only one of 50 States -- Massachusetts.
Today we are facing similar parallels and Bernie Sanders is the torch bearer. He has clearly addressed the glaring inequities that have evolved over the past 20 years or so. Like the early 70s, we seek to purge the cancerous corruption that is threatening our way of life at its very roots.
One thing is for sure -- we can't afford to lose to a Republican.
For those of you who were not alive back then, George McGovern, a Democratic Senator from South Dakota, was the popular choice for President among the young and disaffected.
At the time, I believe the assassination of John F. Kennedy, along with a growing popular movement against the Vietnam war, were largely responsible for creating an increasing amount of social unrest. An emerging "counter-culture" that rejected the materialistic values of what increasingly felt like a "decadent society" was beginning to take shape, threatening the political power structure of the period.
Richard Nixon was running for his second term. (Watergate had not yet surfaced.) George McGovern connected with those of us who felt alienated by what felt like a corrupt system. He won his party's nomination but lost the general election to Nixon, winning only one of 50 States -- Massachusetts.
Today we are facing similar parallels and Bernie Sanders is the torch bearer. He has clearly addressed the glaring inequities that have evolved over the past 20 years or so. Like the early 70s, we seek to purge the cancerous corruption that is threatening our way of life at its very roots.
One thing is for sure -- we can't afford to lose to a Republican.
53
Thanks, Mike, for putting into words what I have thought. When people extol Bernie, the words that always come to mind are "George McGovern." I voted for him. And I have learned the error of those ways. I want a president who can get things done--who has the ideas but also the well-honed sense of what is possible. Someone who knows the culture of Washington, and indeed the rest of the world. Someone who has already been on a world stage. That is why I am voting for Hillary Clinton.
Douthat weaves a grand narrative of cultural decadence to explain Trump and Sanders. It's actually a lot simpler than that.
The results of the Reagan Revolution are in, and they are awful. All profits surge to the top while the rest of us are left with scraps. Wages stagnate, even as productivity is up, and the CEO's walk away with obscene salaries and immoral bonuses. These rewards are unconnected to their actual performance on the job (look at Carly Fiorina). What used to be readily within reach for most Americans -- a modest house, a decent education for their children, a comfortable middle class lifestyle -- is more and more a mirage.
As this economic imbalance deepens, democracy morphs into oligarchy. The oligarchs enriches themselves daily by rigging the tax system, the economic system, and the political system. The courts are hijacked to produce decisions that benefit corporations and the rich over the ordinary citizen, and the underclass is warehoused by mass incarceration that has reached revolting proportions. Private prison corporations profit even from this travesty.
People are sick of it. They twice elected Barack Obama, a decent and reasonable man, to make changes but watched him stymied at every turn and belittled. Now they're looking further afield, to someone who says "No more Mr. Nice Guy."
The difference is that Sanders has correctly identified the problem, while Trump peddles proto-fascist hate. Who prevails will say much about America.
The results of the Reagan Revolution are in, and they are awful. All profits surge to the top while the rest of us are left with scraps. Wages stagnate, even as productivity is up, and the CEO's walk away with obscene salaries and immoral bonuses. These rewards are unconnected to their actual performance on the job (look at Carly Fiorina). What used to be readily within reach for most Americans -- a modest house, a decent education for their children, a comfortable middle class lifestyle -- is more and more a mirage.
As this economic imbalance deepens, democracy morphs into oligarchy. The oligarchs enriches themselves daily by rigging the tax system, the economic system, and the political system. The courts are hijacked to produce decisions that benefit corporations and the rich over the ordinary citizen, and the underclass is warehoused by mass incarceration that has reached revolting proportions. Private prison corporations profit even from this travesty.
People are sick of it. They twice elected Barack Obama, a decent and reasonable man, to make changes but watched him stymied at every turn and belittled. Now they're looking further afield, to someone who says "No more Mr. Nice Guy."
The difference is that Sanders has correctly identified the problem, while Trump peddles proto-fascist hate. Who prevails will say much about America.
798
I was going to write a comment along these lines, but truly I couldn't have made the point any more eloquently than have you, sir.
The core American value is fairness. It is clear to anyone with a pulse that fairness and a respect for the rules of the game have been abandoned by the elites in both parties, or should I say by the two wings of the Property Party.
People understand this even if they cannot articulate it, and they are angry, because they remember a time not so long ago when fairness and a respect for the rules of the game were, well, respected.
And so, in the Limousine Liberal wing of the Property Party, we are told that the only way we can hang on to some vestige of economic dignity is to support a serial liar who doesn't seem to understand that the reason people don't trust her is because she takes $200,000 in one shot for giving a 30 minute speeches to the Wall Street types who are still robbing the rest of us blind.
The neo-Fascist wing of the Property Party has benefited so much from the dumbing down of America over the past 40 years that it it doesn't even bother to "don" any obfuscatory policy fig leaves -- it simply pumps out a daily ration of fear, hatred, xenophobia, and an obscene display of privilege and beyond-conspicuous consumption; the masses respond not with outrage, but with roars of approval in the hope that maybe they'll win the lottery and be able to join the favored few at the top.
The game is hopelessly rigged. See you in the streets.
The core American value is fairness. It is clear to anyone with a pulse that fairness and a respect for the rules of the game have been abandoned by the elites in both parties, or should I say by the two wings of the Property Party.
People understand this even if they cannot articulate it, and they are angry, because they remember a time not so long ago when fairness and a respect for the rules of the game were, well, respected.
And so, in the Limousine Liberal wing of the Property Party, we are told that the only way we can hang on to some vestige of economic dignity is to support a serial liar who doesn't seem to understand that the reason people don't trust her is because she takes $200,000 in one shot for giving a 30 minute speeches to the Wall Street types who are still robbing the rest of us blind.
The neo-Fascist wing of the Property Party has benefited so much from the dumbing down of America over the past 40 years that it it doesn't even bother to "don" any obfuscatory policy fig leaves -- it simply pumps out a daily ration of fear, hatred, xenophobia, and an obscene display of privilege and beyond-conspicuous consumption; the masses respond not with outrage, but with roars of approval in the hope that maybe they'll win the lottery and be able to join the favored few at the top.
The game is hopelessly rigged. See you in the streets.
6
Well said! To your excellent explanation, I would add the insecurity that a lot of white Americans feel about our changing demographics, embodied for them in President Obama as well as the scary hordes of immigrants. Someday I hope to understand how the plutocrats have managed to distract so many people with bogeymen and social-conservative dog whistles while they hoard ever more wealth for themselves.
2
While I agree with your comments in regard to CEO salaries, first, you have made no connection between Reagan and those effects. The gap between the rich and the poor has widen under Obama. Secondly, this idea that Americans are poorer now than they were before Reagan is based on what? Americans are not poorer, they are greedier. What did your parents home look like? Maybe 1000 square feet with one bathroom. What does your home look like? The average American home is now over double in size what our parents lived in, with a t.v. and computer for every person, at least two bathrooms and maybe a third. The average American family had one car. Now they have at least two, and these cars have air conditioning, gps, stereos and leather seats. Look at what we eat. We're so fat, we're all dying of diabetes and hypertension. The problem with liberals is they are always looking to blame other people for what they don't like about society, but it rarely involves changes in themselves.
1
Douthat, I am not exhausted, disgusted, or cynical. I couldn't be more pleased with the way Obama has run this country for the past seven-some years. He has not foisted new wars based upon lies and/or incompetence on us. Fewer and fewer of our kids are coming home from stupid wars with their heads shattered and their limbs blown off. I am grateful for my Social Security, also known to you, Douthat, as socialism. The Affordable Care Act is not limping; it is robust, a great success, and as a result my wife is paying in premiums less than half of what she would've paid prior to the implementation of the ACA. This so-called malaise you write about has been blown all out of proportion by right-wing radio, Senor Fathead, and the nitwit from Wasilla. I'm looking forward to Hillary Clinton continuing the fine work begun by President Obama. I will miss Obama dearly. And thank you, TIMES, for endorsing Hillary.
Red O. Greene, Albuquerque, NM, USA
Red O. Greene, Albuquerque, NM, USA
27
It's more about it no longer being deniable that the system works only for money and the political lackeys money buys. If we're going to have to listen to lies anyway, let's at least have thrilling ones that give us a few moments of diversion.
5
Even now, those on the Right are unable to face up to the consequences of their political actions in the past decade. It is interesting to finally hear ONE Republican listing all the things that have not gone horribly wrong in this country. But still, he failed to admit that the OPPOSITE of that list is what the people hear constantly from their side. He doubly failed to list the things that are real -- global warming, increase gap of income, declining middle class, lost manufacturing jobs, corporate welfare... and an electorate that do not want socialized healthcare but want to keep Medicare, that is besides ISIS.
Progressive politic is often thought of (both by the Right and Left) as socialistic politics of redistribution and welfare state. But we should properly think of progressive politic as one that puts people first. People and the well being of all people should be at the front and center and the soul and heart of our economy, our government, our values, our lives. Not profit, not stuff.
Douthat is grasping at straw here trying to describe the current chaos. But he needs to first be very honest in self introspection.
Progressive politic is often thought of (both by the Right and Left) as socialistic politics of redistribution and welfare state. But we should properly think of progressive politic as one that puts people first. People and the well being of all people should be at the front and center and the soul and heart of our economy, our government, our values, our lives. Not profit, not stuff.
Douthat is grasping at straw here trying to describe the current chaos. But he needs to first be very honest in self introspection.
22
You are either a have or a have not and the haves won't have it anymore due to the lack of highly paid jobs (as in the past ) and an increasingly lower standard of living (many reasons) . And the have nots are not happy as they want what the have's have but won't be able to have it due to being uneducated, illegal, or other reasons.
1
The Times keeps using the not so subtle propaganda tactic of lumping Trump and Sanders together. Certainly there is a fine line between the American Dream and the American nightmare but these two candidates have nothing in common. Sanders is the dream, Trump is the nightmare.
27
This is a realistic, cogent analysis of the zeitgeist and as good an explanation as any for what's going on. I don't often agree with Mr. Douthat, and sometimes he stretches to make a point from his favored perspective, but this seems dead on. The next question is, what do we do about it?
1
Mr. Douthat's cultural analysis contains important and true points. After all, the Catholic worldview with its Rome centrism was maybe one of cultural decline since before Christianity (e.g. Ovid) even existed. I would have, nevertheless, gone more with the feeling of impotence (instead of wariness of decadence) which envelopes both the Trumpenproletariat (45 plus white blue collars who were betrayed over and over again by both Democrats and Republicans - Mr. Douthat wrote a column about their suicides not long ago) and the Bernistas, who know that the economy is the well spring of all behavior. Now this IS a Marxist view, whether it's Socialist is another question - it might just be a fact. The Bernistas also resent that the economy is rigged (and don't believe it should be) and there's the always powerless youth. Maybe, it would help if our democracy was to represent our views a bit better? Why is it that 90% of the population would like background checks for gun purchases but then don't get it? How come that 70% of the population doesn't want illegal immigration but e-verify isn't used?
9
I've worked in public service for over two decades. I've also owned and run a business. The truth is public service is ineffectual and incompetent. It is a leviathan that cannot move in response to the ever changing forces of the society or the economy. The bitter truth about business is money breeds money. The more money you have, the more money you will make. It's exponential. I've thought about it for a long time now, how do you bring the efficiencies of the business world to the government sector? How do you bring financial equity to the working world. I'm not sure there is an answer. The truth is, wealth is a necessary evil. The Renaissance would never have occured had it not been for the acquisition of wealth outside the tentacles of government control (at that time the Monarchy and the Catholic Church). If I have to choose, I will choose entreprenuerial capitalism over socialism any day.
My point was that both the Bernie and the Donald sides are discouraged, feel impotent, found somebody who gives them a little hope and I can understand both. This wasn't - even remotely - a capitalism critique. As everybody knows, capitalism works well within parameters. If it's trying to work without competition (e.g. cable companies, banking), beyond normal taxation (oil industry, banking) or with too many subsidies (soy beans, banking), it will not work properly, for then distortions shape the market, i.e. the price of a product/service cannot reflect its worth anymore. Whether the current situation is acceptable to you is up to you to decide. Secondly, work for big Pharma, big sales organisations, big private hospitals or big private universities and you will see how efficient these are. "Efficiency of the business world" as such does not exist. After working 20 years in big organisations, there is a lot of project creep and paperwork (unrelated to Government intrusion). The bigger they are, the bigger the creep gets. And if you find a managment form that works for big industry, it'll work for big government, too. (I suspect Google could teach us a thing or two.) Third, Renaissance paintings in Florence were nice, but the Florentines have been moving to Bavaria and Switzerland for quite a while now.
It is simply amazing that Trump has increased his lead over Cruz in Iowa. And at the same time, that Cruz is on anyone's list as a serious candidate. He is a despicable, dishonest creep who would be a nightmare president.
So these two embarrassments are in the lead for the Republican nomination? This tells us exactly who Republican voters are --- the most anti-logical, irresponsible and angry remnants of an incompetent segment of the electorate.
The world watches and shakes its head.
So these two embarrassments are in the lead for the Republican nomination? This tells us exactly who Republican voters are --- the most anti-logical, irresponsible and angry remnants of an incompetent segment of the electorate.
The world watches and shakes its head.
33
With Hillary suffering the death of 1000 email cuts, the odds are a Republican will be the next president. Get used to it.
So we are left voting for an old socialist or a serial liar, we are no better off we either.
The race started early, there have been no votes and there is some validity of the poles due to shifting phone use. Will Iowa surprise us?
"in 2004, when Democratic voters played it safe with John Kerry and George W. Bush won re-election". Played it safe? John Kerry would have made a much, much better president than George W Bush in every way, shape, and form. Swift Boat Veterans for Truth just showed how low conservatives will go to get what they want. If the Democratic voters played it safe the Republican voters played it as uncaring, unpatriotic dupes.
52
"...is why now? Yes, voters are angry, yes, they’re exhausted and disgusted and cynical about everything. But why is everything boiling over in this particular cycle...?"
Written by a man of privilege who's never had to worry about which bill to pay or whether he could afford to replace his kids' outgrown clothes. Which is really all the explanation necessary.
I hate to put Bernie and Trump in the same sentence, but they have both tapped into the fact that regular Americans who mostly live paycheck to paycheck (or worse) are finally seeing that both parties are have let us down, that even though the economy isn't bad and the market and corporate profits have been good, we're still struggling along. Some of us have been paying attention all along and know that Bernie has the best answers, but those who don't pay attention and don't see behind the wizard's curtain are enticed by Trump's promises. The establishment is surprised because they stay behind their gated communities and in their privileged office suites and don't ever mingle with Joe & Jill Schmoe.
This has been a very long time in the making, at least since St Ronnie's finest acting role began in 1980, but Ross and the rest of the very comfortable had better hope that Bernie IS elected and starts to turn things around, because it could get very, very ugly otherwise. You may have to give up an extra house or yacht, but that would be better than all those militia types doing a Bundy in every state capitol.
Written by a man of privilege who's never had to worry about which bill to pay or whether he could afford to replace his kids' outgrown clothes. Which is really all the explanation necessary.
I hate to put Bernie and Trump in the same sentence, but they have both tapped into the fact that regular Americans who mostly live paycheck to paycheck (or worse) are finally seeing that both parties are have let us down, that even though the economy isn't bad and the market and corporate profits have been good, we're still struggling along. Some of us have been paying attention all along and know that Bernie has the best answers, but those who don't pay attention and don't see behind the wizard's curtain are enticed by Trump's promises. The establishment is surprised because they stay behind their gated communities and in their privileged office suites and don't ever mingle with Joe & Jill Schmoe.
This has been a very long time in the making, at least since St Ronnie's finest acting role began in 1980, but Ross and the rest of the very comfortable had better hope that Bernie IS elected and starts to turn things around, because it could get very, very ugly otherwise. You may have to give up an extra house or yacht, but that would be better than all those militia types doing a Bundy in every state capitol.
40
Are Americans REALLY angry, fed up and gearing up to deliver an electoral upheaval?
Or are they simply bored, and maybe a bit more cynical?
I know this theory of popular discontent and anger has become received wisdom among the polling and chattering classes. But where's the evidence?
I guess if you are bombarded by the cataclysmic declamations of politicians who twist reality to suit their purpose, you might start to believe that things really are very bad - even though you are not personally affected.
If you ask people, in poll after poll after poll, why they are angry, I guess after a while they start to believe that they are angry. But when you ask them to articulate the reasons for being angry, you get a jumble of incomprehensible and indecipherable statements.
Such as we have in Douthat's column today. He starts promisingly by appearing to question the basis for this conventional wisdom about popular anger. But not finding an objective condition to justify the claim, he turns to a sophistic argument about 'decadence'.
There is little sign of mass discontent and revolutionary pressure in America - nothing much beyond a level of restlessness and unease you'd find in any changing society.
And nothing beyond what you'd expect in an affluent but possibly bored society. A society, possibly also in the throes of moral stagnation.
Or are they simply bored, and maybe a bit more cynical?
I know this theory of popular discontent and anger has become received wisdom among the polling and chattering classes. But where's the evidence?
I guess if you are bombarded by the cataclysmic declamations of politicians who twist reality to suit their purpose, you might start to believe that things really are very bad - even though you are not personally affected.
If you ask people, in poll after poll after poll, why they are angry, I guess after a while they start to believe that they are angry. But when you ask them to articulate the reasons for being angry, you get a jumble of incomprehensible and indecipherable statements.
Such as we have in Douthat's column today. He starts promisingly by appearing to question the basis for this conventional wisdom about popular anger. But not finding an objective condition to justify the claim, he turns to a sophistic argument about 'decadence'.
There is little sign of mass discontent and revolutionary pressure in America - nothing much beyond a level of restlessness and unease you'd find in any changing society.
And nothing beyond what you'd expect in an affluent but possibly bored society. A society, possibly also in the throes of moral stagnation.
10
A lot of truth there, Homes. But we're in primary season, when decisions are notoriously taken by activists, many of them certifiable nuts. Right-wing media have fed fear to their clients. Even senators like Inhofe and House members like Lamar Smith not only deny science, but also decry it as from the pit of hell.
1
hometruth,
Those of us who lived through Quebec's quiet revolution never witnessed the kind of anger we are seeing today south of our borders.Make no mistake Quebec was as conservative as fascist Spain but was constrained in it brutality by our neighbour to the South and being part of an emerging democracy called Canada.
Bernie Sanders and Howard Dean saw our quiet revolution unfold. We have virtually all of what Sanders is proposing. The only thing those to the left of Bernie are proposing is paying University students for continuing their education which if I may suggest become conservative rational social policy within the decade in all the Western democracies.
Americans must decide whether they will rejoin the Western democracies or join Russia in dreaming of past glories while embracing oligarchy and autocracy.
Those of us who lived through Quebec's quiet revolution never witnessed the kind of anger we are seeing today south of our borders.Make no mistake Quebec was as conservative as fascist Spain but was constrained in it brutality by our neighbour to the South and being part of an emerging democracy called Canada.
Bernie Sanders and Howard Dean saw our quiet revolution unfold. We have virtually all of what Sanders is proposing. The only thing those to the left of Bernie are proposing is paying University students for continuing their education which if I may suggest become conservative rational social policy within the decade in all the Western democracies.
Americans must decide whether they will rejoin the Western democracies or join Russia in dreaming of past glories while embracing oligarchy and autocracy.
1
Whatever insulates the west coast from reality, could send a little over this way?
As is typical of Mr. Douthat, he ignorantly redefined Mr.Sanders and then minimizes the uber-weathly corporatocracy, the declining middle class and societal problems that continually worsen under Republican Congresses since Presidnet Regan.
4
Don't ignore the role of the media. Much of your decadence is directly attributable to media empires that profit from spewing anger at everyone and everything and have easy answers for all our problems. The public is fed a constant stream of attacks on our government our government officials and politicians. Stirring the pot is good for business.
1
Maybe your life is decadent. At my age, median income and life stability indicators are way down from people the same age when I was born, and it takes far better luck and connections to enter the middle class. I find the decadence language bewildering. We need social democracy for our shrinking middle class and civil society to survive. Sanders!
5
Likewise Sanders, except that in his case the glorious future is more midcentury Scandinavia" - Ross, why stack the deck that way? Sanders is referencing present-day social democracies in Europe; why try to make that sound outdated, except to try to marginalize the senator and his followers? You can do better than this-
4
Why revolt now? The election of Obama in 2008 WAS a revolt. Apparently, that revolt wasn't taken very seriously. So the election of a self-avowed socialist is a way of upping the ante. If the election of a self-avowed socialist can't make the system more even-handed, then the people may finally determine that there is no political fix for this system. Once it is determined that there is no political fix for the system... well, that's when things get really interesting.
6
Your a disservice to your readers (actually to anyone that can read) when you conflate Trump with Sanders under the poorly chosen metaphor of decadence. Trump hasn't a clue to good governance and could care less, while Sanders is one of the few in elected office deeply committed to it. And I hate to tell you, but things aren't all that rosy in the 'state of the union', especially if you are a working person, a person of color or have the misfortune of living in gerrymandered province under Republican control like Flint. I know some can afford to just ignore those little things that fall outside of their comfort zones, but the reality is that tens of millions in this country don't have that option.
15
Ross Douthat ascribes the appeal of the 2016 political-fringe candidates to "decadence" He writes that "the diagnosis resonates" with Trump and Sanders diehards.
But a diagnosis describes a cause, an etiology, but the list of woes from foreign policy stalemate to slow economic growth, and the general "malaise" of diminished expectations describe only symptoms.
So, then, what is the source and nature of this undefined "decadence"?
I see families still paying underwater mortgages; unemployable students of Trump University still on the hook for loans to a fly-by-night school; lead from ancient pipes contemptuously pressed back into service that all but guarantees to knock 35 points off the IQs of thousands of American babies.
Is it decadent to hand over your life's savings to a mortgage broker, or take your GI Bill benefits to an "accredited" online university, or tug a mother's pant-leg and hold out a sippy cup and expect to get what you paid for? To get more than a swindle and lifetime of harm?
Yes, there is decadence, but as usual it's a supply-side problem: government-for-sale politicians and their masters have strip-mined the middle class. Bush-Clinton-Brownback-Emmanuel, LLC. did the dirty work, Trump just cuts out the middle-men and women.
Pope Francis denounced American-Style global capitalism as "the Devil's dung," if I'm going to stand up to my neck in it, could I at least have a glass of clean water? (I know Fr. Douthat! Please forgive me my wicked excess!)
But a diagnosis describes a cause, an etiology, but the list of woes from foreign policy stalemate to slow economic growth, and the general "malaise" of diminished expectations describe only symptoms.
So, then, what is the source and nature of this undefined "decadence"?
I see families still paying underwater mortgages; unemployable students of Trump University still on the hook for loans to a fly-by-night school; lead from ancient pipes contemptuously pressed back into service that all but guarantees to knock 35 points off the IQs of thousands of American babies.
Is it decadent to hand over your life's savings to a mortgage broker, or take your GI Bill benefits to an "accredited" online university, or tug a mother's pant-leg and hold out a sippy cup and expect to get what you paid for? To get more than a swindle and lifetime of harm?
Yes, there is decadence, but as usual it's a supply-side problem: government-for-sale politicians and their masters have strip-mined the middle class. Bush-Clinton-Brownback-Emmanuel, LLC. did the dirty work, Trump just cuts out the middle-men and women.
Pope Francis denounced American-Style global capitalism as "the Devil's dung," if I'm going to stand up to my neck in it, could I at least have a glass of clean water? (I know Fr. Douthat! Please forgive me my wicked excess!)
6
Why is it happening now? We have been a very patient population and believed that we lived in a fair country where anyone with hard work and a little luck could get ahead. After 30 years, the populace has finally realized that the deck is stacked against them and the corrupt political class is not going to keep their promises. The rich keep getting richer and more distant, the middle class is vanishing and the poor are increasing. The stones have been lifted from the eyes of the populace and now they finally see what has been happening. It is obvious why it is happening now.
12
To claim as this piece tries that Trump and Bernie Sanders are mirror images of one another is intellectually bankrupt. Sanders is consistent and honest and offers a critique of the current state of the nation that makes rational sense. Trump is a windbag and a provocateur and a snake oil salesman who preys on people's irrational fears.
10
The problem with acknowledging that things are a little better and could be much, much worse is that the Republicans and Fox News would have to give Obama a little credit. Obviously, a brush with reality like that is out of the question. They are focused on doing damage with emails and Benghazi.
Things in the US of A are far from great and some problems, like job offshoring, are probably irreversable. But constantly telling people the end is near will only make them angrier and less rational. Look at the presidential race, for example.
Things in the US of A are far from great and some problems, like job offshoring, are probably irreversable. But constantly telling people the end is near will only make them angrier and less rational. Look at the presidential race, for example.
5
Dothan is right that voters disappointed by constraints they are experiencing want to support someone like Trump who claims they can transcend these limits, and be great again.
That's the fairly obvious part. The more difficult part is how they could have been made so stupid to believe that the illusory and tinsel thin methods of Trump could unbind them.
The real hard work of maintaining what we've got--we;ve got a planet after all if the Republicans don't lose it for us over climate change denial--We've got an economy after all--unless and until Re;publicans like Trump strip away the regulations preventing another great period of instability like the 08 financial crisis. We've got a situation with ISIS in Syria and Iraq that some more boots on the ground coupled with some protections for the Sunnis population can solve--unless and until some quack cowboy from the Republican side either carpet bombs them or acts too unilaterally or neglects the necessity of negotiations to assure the Sunnis we don't mean to destroy them like we did when Bush league went into Iraq, deBaathized the army and sicked the Shia on them.
Yes it would be nice to do even better than that. And some real efforts to do even better are desirable. Quaker of the Trump Cruz kind however not only will not free us from constraint, they'll leave us enormously less free and more poor.
If it weren't for Republicans this would be a pretty good place.
That's the fairly obvious part. The more difficult part is how they could have been made so stupid to believe that the illusory and tinsel thin methods of Trump could unbind them.
The real hard work of maintaining what we've got--we;ve got a planet after all if the Republicans don't lose it for us over climate change denial--We've got an economy after all--unless and until Re;publicans like Trump strip away the regulations preventing another great period of instability like the 08 financial crisis. We've got a situation with ISIS in Syria and Iraq that some more boots on the ground coupled with some protections for the Sunnis population can solve--unless and until some quack cowboy from the Republican side either carpet bombs them or acts too unilaterally or neglects the necessity of negotiations to assure the Sunnis we don't mean to destroy them like we did when Bush league went into Iraq, deBaathized the army and sicked the Shia on them.
Yes it would be nice to do even better than that. And some real efforts to do even better are desirable. Quaker of the Trump Cruz kind however not only will not free us from constraint, they'll leave us enormously less free and more poor.
If it weren't for Republicans this would be a pretty good place.
7
For some, a revolt against decadence. For the other 90% of us, a desire for reasonable responsibility, respect for humanity, and fair treatment of all citizens.
16
We are being told, sure, it's excess, but no reason to take to cookie jar away. Yea, it's bad, but don't rock the boat.
"Richest 62 people as wealthy as half of world's population, says Oxfam
Charity says only higher wages, crackdown on tax dodging and higher investment in public services can stop divide widening"
http://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/jan/18/richest-62-billionaires-...
"Richest 62 people as wealthy as half of world's population, says Oxfam
Charity says only higher wages, crackdown on tax dodging and higher investment in public services can stop divide widening"
http://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/jan/18/richest-62-billionaires-...
9
Ross you skip out on the one major change between 2004 (and to some extent even 2016), social media. It's so much easier for people to vent their spleen and find others who feel likewise. For so many, the glass can't be half-filled if all these people like me see it half-empty. The naysaying nabobs dominate the blogosphere and the news.
2
when i finished graduate school in 1962 the concept of not finding a job didn't exist. what did exist was a president (D) that guided us into a 15 year long "war' against a people that were no threat to us. we then had a pres. who left the white house in disgrace (R) . We then had a pres. that couldn't keep his hands off young, inexperienced women.
(D). We then elected a man who was great at
20 mule team borax commercials (R) but had no vision or a high level of intelligence. Meanwhile our economy was being outsourced, our treatment of each other remained despicable, we bombed and invaded while a professional politicians grew fat and rich while the middle class dwindled. So, now , today, will I vote for a "Clinton"...no, not at bayonet point. I'm tired of professional liars..Trump is all the negatives I will see in this thread, but he is a "destroyer"...He is a Sulla, I will vote for him.
(D). We then elected a man who was great at
20 mule team borax commercials (R) but had no vision or a high level of intelligence. Meanwhile our economy was being outsourced, our treatment of each other remained despicable, we bombed and invaded while a professional politicians grew fat and rich while the middle class dwindled. So, now , today, will I vote for a "Clinton"...no, not at bayonet point. I'm tired of professional liars..Trump is all the negatives I will see in this thread, but he is a "destroyer"...He is a Sulla, I will vote for him.
2
So are you saying Trump has "vision" and a "high level of intelligence?" Evidently, you are.
Ross really stepped on it or in it with this column, and it is great to read.
Douthat has championed the notion for several years that Republicans need to recapture the working class White voter that were once known as Reagan Democrats. Trump has done that, not really as a Republican but running for the Republican nomination. Seeing nobody who will take up their cause, those working class Whites (many of them Democrats) have lined up at Trump rallies. He speaks to them as they see the Democrats fawning after every voter bloc that they can label (no Whites, please).
The horror of the NYTimes readership is that Bernie and Trump are mentioned side by side. Sanders is a serious man. Trump is a clown. Sanders can usher in the Socialism enjoyed by Scandinavia. Trump is all bombast and easily distracted when confronted with complicated questions about the difference between Quds and Kurds.
The reaction yesterday to the Times endorsement of Clinton is very telling. The readership that claims to be the most enlightened and intellectual is throwing in with Bernie Sanders in a dramatic gesture that belies the same resignation as those who line up behind Trump. And that is exactly why Ross draws an equivalence between these two men.
Democrats have chased every shiny object they can find during the past two decades. Today it's Socialism. I would hope that NYTimes readers can do better than to continue to blame every problem on a Vast Right Wing Conspiracy, but it seems not.
Douthat has championed the notion for several years that Republicans need to recapture the working class White voter that were once known as Reagan Democrats. Trump has done that, not really as a Republican but running for the Republican nomination. Seeing nobody who will take up their cause, those working class Whites (many of them Democrats) have lined up at Trump rallies. He speaks to them as they see the Democrats fawning after every voter bloc that they can label (no Whites, please).
The horror of the NYTimes readership is that Bernie and Trump are mentioned side by side. Sanders is a serious man. Trump is a clown. Sanders can usher in the Socialism enjoyed by Scandinavia. Trump is all bombast and easily distracted when confronted with complicated questions about the difference between Quds and Kurds.
The reaction yesterday to the Times endorsement of Clinton is very telling. The readership that claims to be the most enlightened and intellectual is throwing in with Bernie Sanders in a dramatic gesture that belies the same resignation as those who line up behind Trump. And that is exactly why Ross draws an equivalence between these two men.
Democrats have chased every shiny object they can find during the past two decades. Today it's Socialism. I would hope that NYTimes readers can do better than to continue to blame every problem on a Vast Right Wing Conspiracy, but it seems not.
4
We have a bored, tired, worn-out electorate which, frankly, has given up on politicians -- the promises, the false hopes, the impossible dreams, the deadlocks of law making, the obvious self-serving nature of the participants. We're unmotivated, and we have every reason to be. I suppose there is still some hope with the young, but they'll soon learn how things work -- or, more accurately, don't work. So...we're left with manufactured crises, one after another. Our nation and civilization is at the crossroads of Doom and Destruction, and only "I" can head off the demise. Make it all up, spend billions of advertising dollars pounding it into our heads -- it's the terrorists, it's the "takers," it the immigrants. There's no hope for us without me -- and, of course, my GOD. What's happening, basically, is that we're being terrorized -- by politicians. They've created the boredom. Now they've got to deal with the real crisis -- how to get us motivated. Fear, anger, Armageddon. Sorry, I might just stay home on election. You, Mr. and Mrs. Politician, are on my terrorist watch-list.
5
Ross: In response to the question "Why now?" consider this: In 1954, my father graduated from a good state college and, after several stints in retail sales, became a commercial loan officer for a regional bank, making $50,000 a year. Today, with my folks' generous support and assistance, I have a more 'prestigious' degree, a CPA certificate, work for a software company in California as a financial reporting expert and made $91,000 in 2015. Checking the value of my dad's salary in 2015 dollars, I was shocked to see the result: $219,765. Do you now understand?
441
Keep in mind that wages used to go up, almost in lock step, with productivity. So if your Dad still had his job and still had the same social contract, he might be making something like $350k.
My dad did about the same. I have massively better education than him and experience, yet I make about $35,000.
So much for the Reagan revolution.
My dad did about the same. I have massively better education than him and experience, yet I make about $35,000.
So much for the Reagan revolution.
26
Completely agree. At individual and family level working hard and investing in education that has demand in the dynamic market the success is sure to follow. I share my experience as immigrant Indian American at the age of 50 who along with his wife saved and invested every dollar in educating two children and they are far more successful than we could be and that was the goal, what matters is values and culture for investing in future.
3
Sad facts, indeed. But those numbers don't explain why so many are so ill-equipped to understand that Trump and Sanders are not offering pathways to solutions but vague notions that are nearer to fairy tales than to viable plans.
1
Equally important has been the incredibly boring nature of the default candidates. Before the campaign got underway, everyone was forecasting that this would be a battle between Jeb Bush and Hillary Clinton -- two families that have been central to the White House for decades. Two families taking turns running the nation is what we associate with some banana republic -- not the USA.
So, now Jeb Bush has fallen to the single digits. His hopes for victory grow increasingly desperate. Ms. Clinton is leading but she largely fails to attract strong enthusiasm.
Does the nation move forward or are we doomed to remain stuck in the status quo as epitomized by these two families?
So, now Jeb Bush has fallen to the single digits. His hopes for victory grow increasingly desperate. Ms. Clinton is leading but she largely fails to attract strong enthusiasm.
Does the nation move forward or are we doomed to remain stuck in the status quo as epitomized by these two families?
1
Decadence? Seriously? This is just possibly one of the most tone-deaf editorials I've ever read.
For God's sake, this isn't rocket science. The American people are telling the corporate elites in no uncertain terms that the jig is up. The 99% ceased being the constituency our elected officials chose to represent a long way back. The American people on both sides of the aisle are waking up from their 30-year political stupor to that new reality and they are saying loud and clear that they are not going down the pathway to serfdom without a good fight.
What has emerged from this 35 year experiment of voodoo economics is a political elite that has a stranglehold on power at the local, state and national levels of our government. That elite has proven to be a craven, amoral, sociopathic bunch of criminals who will not be happy until everyone in the 99% is has been squeezed out of their last dime.
You should be praying for Sanders win Mr. Douthat, because anything less is probably going to lead to a place that is very dangerous for the financial elite. The people have woken up and they are sharpening their pitchforks.
For God's sake, this isn't rocket science. The American people are telling the corporate elites in no uncertain terms that the jig is up. The 99% ceased being the constituency our elected officials chose to represent a long way back. The American people on both sides of the aisle are waking up from their 30-year political stupor to that new reality and they are saying loud and clear that they are not going down the pathway to serfdom without a good fight.
What has emerged from this 35 year experiment of voodoo economics is a political elite that has a stranglehold on power at the local, state and national levels of our government. That elite has proven to be a craven, amoral, sociopathic bunch of criminals who will not be happy until everyone in the 99% is has been squeezed out of their last dime.
You should be praying for Sanders win Mr. Douthat, because anything less is probably going to lead to a place that is very dangerous for the financial elite. The people have woken up and they are sharpening their pitchforks.
9
Elizabeth Warren: "One Way to Rebuild Our Institutions" in the Saturday paper and I'm sure Sunday's.
Time for Ross to get off his hamster wheel and retool his brain. Especially the self awareness section, then the honesty section, then the foresight section, and so forth.
Time for Ross to get off his hamster wheel and retool his brain. Especially the self awareness section, then the honesty section, then the foresight section, and so forth.
5
Decadence is defined in the dictionary as " a period of decline in morals, art, literature, music, etc.". We have certainly witnessed such a decline in our country in the last few decades. Robert Bork wrote a book back in 1996 called " Slouching towards Gomorrah". Gomorrah was the biblical city burned to the ground for the sinfulness of its people. What he had to say in that book about the devastating effects of a degenerating culture is so true today. We have developed a culture that must change its ways or face destruction.
1
The idea that Mr. Sanders extols a midcentury Scandinavian model has the faint sound of something slightly abhorrent in Mr. Douthat's column. If he were either studying a few statistics or ventured there for a while he would notice that without particular reference to religion, marriage or family, Scandinavians have one of the highest standards of living in the world. No worry about education, health care, maternal leave, about abject poverty as is common here, or horrible levels of violence. If that sounds less mid-century than a desirable future, then perhaps the Scandinavian model would do the 99% of this country a world of good.
6
You need to get out more. The economy is not measured simply be the unemployment rate. We have historically low employment participation rate. Our economy has been on 8 years of life support and is still growing in fits and starts. And for those of us who look at the economies beyond our borders, we are rightly less sanguine of the prospects of the American economy thriving while the rest of the world plods along. Our economists get it wrong every time. We hear prosperity is right around the corner, just keep your money in the stock market, nothing to worry about here. Bernie Sanders is smart enough to know and has enough integrity to tell intelligent people that capitalism is exhausted. Its used up every little trick to extract whatever wealth we might have. The bankers take our houses. We get debit cards to keep the consumption train rolling. We make up all these economically useful financial instruments that have no other purpose than to make the rich get richer. Thats your Republican economy and Hillary's democratic economy, Ross, and I don't like it. And for you to editorialize and say he's looking for a Swedish or a Scandinavian model, that's simply you shilling for the system. You can have American socialism. That's what FDR gave us and I'll take it any day over Rockefeller Republicanism.
3
Yes, as a superficial similarity, both Trump and Sanders reject the status quo. But for Sanders, greed, corruption and an uneven playing field are the culprit, while Trump claims that political correctness is killing America, and that our borders render us not a country at all. It's not even close to decide whose platform asks us to better, and whose asks us to be bitter.
3
NM,
A friend of mine who was an eminently successful deal maker always taught me it is the sizzle that sells not the the steak.
Donald has delivered enormous amounts of truly enticing sizzle. I am certain there is a lot more sizzle to come.
What I am not so sure of is if the steak that makes America great again will be like Bernie Sander's democracy or more Ronald Reagan sizzle and middle class decline.
A friend of mine who was an eminently successful deal maker always taught me it is the sizzle that sells not the the steak.
Donald has delivered enormous amounts of truly enticing sizzle. I am certain there is a lot more sizzle to come.
What I am not so sure of is if the steak that makes America great again will be like Bernie Sander's democracy or more Ronald Reagan sizzle and middle class decline.
1
Sanders and Trump, as if they were related in anyway.
Sanders has many more supporters. Sanders represents all Americans. Sanders wants American workers to be payed a living wage and he wants them to be respected. Sanders is not an ego-maniac, or a bully.Sanders has vast experience in government. Sanders has not bankrupted himself or anyone else. Sanders trusts the people and the people's government, democracy and does not trust corporations more than democracy.
People who do not trust government but trust business are fools. Democracy is government by the people. We are the government. We want our government back. We want our government to work for us and stop working for the rich, who are a tiny minority.
Sanders has many more supporters. Sanders represents all Americans. Sanders wants American workers to be payed a living wage and he wants them to be respected. Sanders is not an ego-maniac, or a bully.Sanders has vast experience in government. Sanders has not bankrupted himself or anyone else. Sanders trusts the people and the people's government, democracy and does not trust corporations more than democracy.
People who do not trust government but trust business are fools. Democracy is government by the people. We are the government. We want our government back. We want our government to work for us and stop working for the rich, who are a tiny minority.
7
We need to dream, Ross. The "septuagenarian Vermont socialist" has taught us that little people in this country can still dream big. And he has taught us that we do not forever have to walk over a field of broken dreams. We need to start somewhere, Ross. We need a captain who is not afraid to steer the ship into uncharted waters. Sanders is the only candidate who can lead us out of what you call "decadence". Wanting Bernie Sanders as president is not "dangerous sensibility", Ross. It is the only choice for voters with any sensibility.
11
Why now? That's easy. Inequality is worse than it was four years ago, median income is stagnant or falling, white mortality is increasing. There is low unemployment but the jobs can be poor, paying less than what people were earning before they were let go in the Great Recession. The Republican establishment offers nothing but greed, and boring Hillary offers nothing other than the same old identity politics.
6
Let's see. One party vowed to grind the legislative branch to a halt, to attack the executive branch at every petty turn, to further enrich the rich, to cut off avenues of social mobility, and to defy science. That party, which pretty much succeeded, was installed by the same resentful, small-minded, white, mostly older voters who are now drawn to Donald Trump.
The joke, of course, is that for Mitch McConnell and company, the power they sought -- and power is all they sought -- is now sucked up by a crude, ignorant game-show host. But they did get what they asked for. And I kind of hope the voters do, too. We are, after all, a democracy, and one that seems intent on decadence.
The joke, of course, is that for Mitch McConnell and company, the power they sought -- and power is all they sought -- is now sucked up by a crude, ignorant game-show host. But they did get what they asked for. And I kind of hope the voters do, too. We are, after all, a democracy, and one that seems intent on decadence.
4
Maybe, but there could be a simpler explanation. When things were bad -- the recession, mired in war -- people were willing to soldier on. When things are pretty good and we read about the extraordinary riches flowing only to the 1%, it becomes more obvious that most of us have been taken advantage of.
8
Remember this piece from 2014 Douthat, they are still paying 15% for carried interest, if that much. These guys add nothing to our national interest, abuse the system, corrupt the government and basically get away with murder. We want all that changed, not nursed by Hillary.
"Hedge fund managers, who heavily populate the so-called 1 percent in the United States, are getting richer. The 25 highest-earning hedge fund managers in the United States took home a total of $21.15 billion in compensation in 2013, according to an annual ranking published on Tuesday by Institutional Investor’s Alpha magazine, DealBook’s Alexandra Stevenson writes. The payday, earned in a year when most hedge fund managers fell short of market performance, is the highest since 2010 and 50 percent more than in 2012. No women placed among the top 50."
http://dealbook.nytimes.com/2014/05/06/morning-agenda-a-haul-for-hedge-f...
"Hedge fund managers, who heavily populate the so-called 1 percent in the United States, are getting richer. The 25 highest-earning hedge fund managers in the United States took home a total of $21.15 billion in compensation in 2013, according to an annual ranking published on Tuesday by Institutional Investor’s Alpha magazine, DealBook’s Alexandra Stevenson writes. The payday, earned in a year when most hedge fund managers fell short of market performance, is the highest since 2010 and 50 percent more than in 2012. No women placed among the top 50."
http://dealbook.nytimes.com/2014/05/06/morning-agenda-a-haul-for-hedge-f...
11
Ross, like David, is lamenting again. How has this befallen our "grand"old party? What willful blindness these guys are capable of, these establishment conservatives who allowed the tea party to hijack the bandwagon, and let Fox calibrate the decline of discourse. Big shock that this opened the floodgates to preening narcissists because let's face it nature abhors a vacuum. In the absence of real ideas (instead we got lockstep blind opposition) why should it be surprising that caricatures became forces in the party. Regarding Sanders, I tend to ignore what Ross and David say, because they are so lost in false equivalencies that I can't really process their critiques with fidelity anymore.
4
Just what is it you and all other Republicans have against some peace and prosperity? This is the most passive-aggressive analysis of the "state of the union" since I received my last (unwanted) life review from my mother. It's not bad, says Ross wrapped in a shawl sitting in his rocking chair eating watered-down oatmeal, but it could be worse.
I seem to remember a time when four percent unemployment was considered "full" employment and something to be celebrated. The deficit has been cut in half and the world isn't in danger of going into collapse. Remember those times? If this is the quality of reporting, no wonder people are in a malaise.
I seem to remember a time when four percent unemployment was considered "full" employment and something to be celebrated. The deficit has been cut in half and the world isn't in danger of going into collapse. Remember those times? If this is the quality of reporting, no wonder people are in a malaise.
7
I'm a Sanders voter and contributor. Is there any way I'd vote for Trump in a Trump vs Clinton election? Yes, there is, even though Trump brings out the worst of bigotry and xenophobia in Americans.
Trump understands completely the role of big money in politics. He's been a large donor many times, and knows exactly what that buys. He may have some insights on how to stop it.
Hillary hasn't said anything about money in politics or the need for campaign finance reform. As the recipient of big money, she really can't.
If Trump had a convincing plan to get rid of big money in American politics, I'd vote for him because, in spite of all his faults, he'd be dealing with the greatest evil the American political system has, and I know that Hillary won't.
Trump understands completely the role of big money in politics. He's been a large donor many times, and knows exactly what that buys. He may have some insights on how to stop it.
Hillary hasn't said anything about money in politics or the need for campaign finance reform. As the recipient of big money, she really can't.
If Trump had a convincing plan to get rid of big money in American politics, I'd vote for him because, in spite of all his faults, he'd be dealing with the greatest evil the American political system has, and I know that Hillary won't.
3
@Steve C: Have you considered that Trump has absolutely zero experience at all with foreign policy? Obama was at least a one term Senator when he was elected, and he was certainly no master of it when he came to the oval office. Can you imagine how much worse, and how much more dangerous it would be to have a far less experienced guy in that position who is also a war monger? So please, everyone, step back and consider that if you are thinking about Trump, you are thinking about putting a child -- and that's what he really is -- in the office of the most powerful person in the world. Would you allow a child into the cockpit of a 747 who has zero training flying airplanes? Would you want to be a passenger on that plane?
You're vision of America, 2016 seems tainted by the New York sky line- a vista of seven figure apartments, foreign investors, bow-tied bankers and pension rich, civil servants.
Out here on the prairie we see the fallout of zero percent interest rates and high frequency traders. The destruction of years of savings and hard work. We see globalization gauging jobs and college graduates, under employed and not capable of paying back their tuition loans.
AND there is more!
The more thoughtful, are now considering, Bernie. With Isis in the background, the more emotional are considering, Yellow Top.
Out here on the prairie we see the fallout of zero percent interest rates and high frequency traders. The destruction of years of savings and hard work. We see globalization gauging jobs and college graduates, under employed and not capable of paying back their tuition loans.
AND there is more!
The more thoughtful, are now considering, Bernie. With Isis in the background, the more emotional are considering, Yellow Top.
6
Mr. Douthat, let me give you a different explanation for this so called revolt of yours: the rightwing has been spending the last 50 years - more or less coinciding with the coming of age of civil rights, equal rights, and human rights (ie voting rights for blacks, equal rights for woman, and human rights in the form of healthcare) - pandering to the worst kinds of post civil war hate, ignorance, lies, and hypocrisy and doing their best to tear down the very essence of what America stands for that we should not be surprised that they have largely succeeded in their goal.
11
As we discuss the Presidency, we must remember the Republican Party of No that is responsible for the malaise of the United States.
Led by House Speaker Bohner and Senate leader McConnell they publicly pledged to be against anything President Obama put forth. In addition, they proposed nothing significant and would never compromise on legislation. Instead, shut down the government and threaten to default on our public debt.
And, they- and Douthat - blame the President that we aren't feeling better about our country's condition? Do a better thoughtful analysis than this. Give me a break!
Led by House Speaker Bohner and Senate leader McConnell they publicly pledged to be against anything President Obama put forth. In addition, they proposed nothing significant and would never compromise on legislation. Instead, shut down the government and threaten to default on our public debt.
And, they- and Douthat - blame the President that we aren't feeling better about our country's condition? Do a better thoughtful analysis than this. Give me a break!
14
Voters are not persuaded by statistics. What matters is their perception of social and economic reality, and there is no doubt that life in the US has dramatically changed since the 1980s when most middle-aged voters were teenagers. Back then, American blue-collar and low to mid-level white-collar workers could live comfortably. They could afford their houses, send their kids to college, and didn't have to worry too much about job-security. Today, they do have to worry about their jobs, their mortgages, and their kids' tuition, and it are these anxieties that translate into the politics of anger, high levels of substance abuse and addiction, and other social ills.
That's not decadence, that's despair, and it is infuriating to voters on the left and right if elite and economically secure candidates tell them that everything is fine. That's what's behind Trump's and Sanders' success. And it is also the secret behind the success of Germany's new nationalist "Alternative for Germany." Many Germans just don't believe that Germany can manage mass-immigration from the Arabic World, and are therefore abandoning West Germany's post WWII political consensus - just like many GOP voters are now abandoning Reaganite trickle down economics.
That's not decadence, that's despair, and it is infuriating to voters on the left and right if elite and economically secure candidates tell them that everything is fine. That's what's behind Trump's and Sanders' success. And it is also the secret behind the success of Germany's new nationalist "Alternative for Germany." Many Germans just don't believe that Germany can manage mass-immigration from the Arabic World, and are therefore abandoning West Germany's post WWII political consensus - just like many GOP voters are now abandoning Reaganite trickle down economics.
168
These days, for elites and the establishment, such as Mr. Douthat, look in the mirror, its a bit like Miss Piggy looking in the mirror and thinking they see Jessica Rabbit reflecting back.
I think the Republican Governor of Michigan saw moral and fiscal decadence in Flint, Michigan. He high handedly disbanded local representative government and sent in his emergency managers. Now they have a real emergency.
Murphys Law on politics says: where you stand on an issue depends upon where you sit.
If you are sitting pretty, rich and comfortable, you see folly in the rabble that want to change things.
But it was Reagans supply side night mare that systematically deconstructed the American social contract which was once the envy of the world. Now the world can spot Americans walking their streets from afar - they are fat, with poor teeth and ill clothed and often have primitive views.
Sanders wants to reconstruct FDRs New Deal Social contract but at a world class level.
Opposing this seems incredibly primitive and stupid. Never mind the wealth and training of those that oppose this. It was the elite that installed Bush into office that is still hemorrhaging suffering around the world. We have yet to hear an appology from the Supreme Court.
Flint is a microcosm. The lowly unsophisticated Flintonians would not have caused their own water supply to be poisoned. The high and mighty did. They still think they are Jessica Rabbit, when in fact they are Miss Piggy.
I think the Republican Governor of Michigan saw moral and fiscal decadence in Flint, Michigan. He high handedly disbanded local representative government and sent in his emergency managers. Now they have a real emergency.
Murphys Law on politics says: where you stand on an issue depends upon where you sit.
If you are sitting pretty, rich and comfortable, you see folly in the rabble that want to change things.
But it was Reagans supply side night mare that systematically deconstructed the American social contract which was once the envy of the world. Now the world can spot Americans walking their streets from afar - they are fat, with poor teeth and ill clothed and often have primitive views.
Sanders wants to reconstruct FDRs New Deal Social contract but at a world class level.
Opposing this seems incredibly primitive and stupid. Never mind the wealth and training of those that oppose this. It was the elite that installed Bush into office that is still hemorrhaging suffering around the world. We have yet to hear an appology from the Supreme Court.
Flint is a microcosm. The lowly unsophisticated Flintonians would not have caused their own water supply to be poisoned. The high and mighty did. They still think they are Jessica Rabbit, when in fact they are Miss Piggy.
11
Um . . you might have mentioned stagnation and real decline in middle class income. I'm a culture guy and I do think that people seem lost without some myth of national self-importance and destiny. I grew up with that void after Vietnam and it ended with completely fraudulent Reaganism -- which by the way, is what led to the very real mess we are now in. So let's not repeat that history, shall we? The underlying problems are real, not merely psychosomatic, so if its Bernie vs. Trump, let's go for the substance and risk failure rather than go for certain failure by adopting a cultural vision entirely without substance.
Sanders and trump are not opposite equivalents asking how to make things different or better. Sanders is a pluralist democratic decent person who upholds the democratic ideals. Trump is a demagogue who uses anger fear frustration racism and hatred to fool people into voting while further disenfranchising the middle class and helping the rich elite drive the country to the right wing. The are not two sides of the same coin Ross.
This country could take a cry bad turn if someone who is this demagogic racist sexist stupid and destructively narcissistic becomes president.
This country could take a cry bad turn if someone who is this demagogic racist sexist stupid and destructively narcissistic becomes president.
I voted twice for Obama. I am a gay, Jewish professional.
And I support Donald Trump for president.
Why?
He speaks truth to power, tells it like it is.
He knows the Establishment and is prepared to do battle with it.
He accepts money from no one.
All the others are bought and sold. Even Hillary took money from him not to mention her millions from Wall St.
He is actually a lot more liberal than most of his supporters will ever admit. He is not a Republican. He is an opportunist who is using the Republican party as a Trojan horse, to do with it as he wishes once he is in power. If you read his book, The art of the deal, you will recognize the strategy that he has used since day one of this campaign.
He is playing Fox and the Republicans like a cheap violin.
He is the only person who can beat Hillary and who offers a completely unscripted, personal, authentic approach to helping change things for our land.
And he will be our next president.
Most people especially in the media and the Democratic/Republican Establishment fail to grasp that. They just find it too threatening to accept. It would mean that they are and have been wrong for many years.
This election is anything but dull.
And I support Donald Trump for president.
Why?
He speaks truth to power, tells it like it is.
He knows the Establishment and is prepared to do battle with it.
He accepts money from no one.
All the others are bought and sold. Even Hillary took money from him not to mention her millions from Wall St.
He is actually a lot more liberal than most of his supporters will ever admit. He is not a Republican. He is an opportunist who is using the Republican party as a Trojan horse, to do with it as he wishes once he is in power. If you read his book, The art of the deal, you will recognize the strategy that he has used since day one of this campaign.
He is playing Fox and the Republicans like a cheap violin.
He is the only person who can beat Hillary and who offers a completely unscripted, personal, authentic approach to helping change things for our land.
And he will be our next president.
Most people especially in the media and the Democratic/Republican Establishment fail to grasp that. They just find it too threatening to accept. It would mean that they are and have been wrong for many years.
This election is anything but dull.
1
Ross - You are right that there is a revolt against decadence, but you have undermined your assertion with a false equivalency by ascribing the revolt to admirers of both Trump and Sanders. Fascination with perceived decadence fuels huge consumer demand for reality TV shows about Housewives from rich zip codes, the Kardashians and celebrity in general. It is silly to say that those enamored with Donald Trump in this election are revolting against decadence - to the contrary, they want it for themselves and love him for offering it to them, no matter how fantastical the promise. On the other hand, as a long time, consistent socialist, Bernie Sanders genuinely does present a revolt against decadence.
I think this misses a significant point. The "masses" see that this country has drifted into an oligarchic mess of big power interests, and these interests are divergent from the interests of the "masses." There's little to no relationship between the leaders and decision-makers living in their bubbles (like no previous time in history - see Coming Apart by Murray) and "the common man and woman." And this is deeply felt. No longer wanting to be pawns in a bigger game with exclusive winners is what a good part of this revolt is all about. Perhaps this is a rising of the proletariat of sorts. No longer content to be mindless consumers for the sake of the billionaires and multi-national corporations, and career politicians with a lucrative job awaiting them in such corporations, the people are rising up. This is the stuff of revolutions, and Douthat makes it a whining gesture with little substance. Rise people, rise!
1
Both main U.S. political parties are so mired in corruption, complacency and irresponsible greed and incompetence that they have produced a government that has zero commitment or capability to protect the genuine economic interests, security and even physical survival of the American people.
Trump and/or Sanders, please.
Trump and/or Sanders, please.
2
We don't accomplish new developments on the national scale anymore because we as a people refuse to invest resources. The Federal budget goes to Social Security, military, Medicare, and financing the national debt.
National high-speed internet and transport systems, new power generation, innovation in health care, space programs, environmental remediation... All takes money, and we prefer to spend it on cheap TVs and cars and then complain about no national mission?
National high-speed internet and transport systems, new power generation, innovation in health care, space programs, environmental remediation... All takes money, and we prefer to spend it on cheap TVs and cars and then complain about no national mission?
"But more important, the fact that both men are promising the implausible or the impossible..."
I have no idea how Mr. Douthat can state that general healthcare is impossible.
Yes, look at all the other advanced nations, they all do have it than extent close to complete.
In 2011 there were 185 k individual uninsured in Germany, population 80 million. Germany has general healthcare since 1883, courtesy of Bismarck, really not a progressive historical figure.
Apropos figure: Go figure.
I have no idea how Mr. Douthat can state that general healthcare is impossible.
Yes, look at all the other advanced nations, they all do have it than extent close to complete.
In 2011 there were 185 k individual uninsured in Germany, population 80 million. Germany has general healthcare since 1883, courtesy of Bismarck, really not a progressive historical figure.
Apropos figure: Go figure.
Voters are angry at a political and economic system that seems rigged to favor a few while it nickel-and-dimes the rest of us. The candidates offered by the political establishment are so plastic, stilted and bought by the rich that they reinforce a sense that American democracy is a sham. Voters believe the political establishment is actively working against the average working American to enrich and protect the 1%. They also see Obama's promises to help Americans like the ACA either as half-wins or government overreach.
Americans want economic opportunity and mobility as well as an affordable way of life. They want a government that reins in the finance and healthcare industries' excessive power and ability to hurt us. They want a government to crush terrorism permanently.
Voter anger today is not a matter of cultural decadence. It’s a matter of American life tilting in favor of the 1% and shutting down to paths of success for the many. Trump and Sanders offer empowerment and opportunity—Trump through the leadership of A Great Man, Sanders through collective bargaining and government intervention for the individual in the marketplace .
Ultimately, the rise of Trump and Sanders are signs that people want the stalemating decadence of federal politics to stop.
Americans want economic opportunity and mobility as well as an affordable way of life. They want a government that reins in the finance and healthcare industries' excessive power and ability to hurt us. They want a government to crush terrorism permanently.
Voter anger today is not a matter of cultural decadence. It’s a matter of American life tilting in favor of the 1% and shutting down to paths of success for the many. Trump and Sanders offer empowerment and opportunity—Trump through the leadership of A Great Man, Sanders through collective bargaining and government intervention for the individual in the marketplace .
Ultimately, the rise of Trump and Sanders are signs that people want the stalemating decadence of federal politics to stop.
2
Please explain the decadence issue. If I were the English teacher grading this essay, I would flag the introduction of the idea of decadence without explanation or any ties to what preceded or succeeded it in the essay. It's not a critique of Doubtthat's conservatism, but of his lack of logic in the developing a theme.
Then there's the equivalence of Donald and Bernie, which is stupid, but political.
Then there's the equivalence of Donald and Bernie, which is stupid, but political.
2
God, I hate buzzwords that have come to portray the concept(s) falsely.
A true "welfare state" is one where government acts in the best interests of its citizens welfare, such as insuring that they have access to quality medical care, that the food they eat and the products they buy won't harm them, that anyone who wants a useful education can afford it, and on and on.
Our government is supposed to be "of the people, by the people, for the people," and that includes granting those people the right to "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness."
Anyone out there who thinks our country is doing a bang-up job of keeping out welfare in mind is either naive or ignorant. My vote will go to whoever demonstrates the greatest commitment to the greatest percentage of all Americans.
I don't know for sure who that is yet, but it does make it easy for me to eliminate several candidates who pander to fear and selfish outrage.
A true "welfare state" is one where government acts in the best interests of its citizens welfare, such as insuring that they have access to quality medical care, that the food they eat and the products they buy won't harm them, that anyone who wants a useful education can afford it, and on and on.
Our government is supposed to be "of the people, by the people, for the people," and that includes granting those people the right to "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness."
Anyone out there who thinks our country is doing a bang-up job of keeping out welfare in mind is either naive or ignorant. My vote will go to whoever demonstrates the greatest commitment to the greatest percentage of all Americans.
I don't know for sure who that is yet, but it does make it easy for me to eliminate several candidates who pander to fear and selfish outrage.
2
Trump and Sanders are two sides of the same coin, but I do not agree that it has primarily to do with decadence. As many of your readers indicate, economic security is inaccessible. The two men are the same in that they both promise what they cannot deliver. Trump cannot "make America great again" through wars and a wall around America, and the president does not have the power to do what he claims he will do through implementing racist and biased schemes. Likewise, Sanders will never get Glass-Stegal or Single payer Medicare-for-all even through a Democratic Congress (which we don't have) in the most Capitalist country in the history of the world.
Both candidates fulfill the Tea Party dream of no compromise. It would be better to elect pragmatic leaders so we can have a realistic policy discussion rather than utopian and dysutopian dream meisters.
Both candidates fulfill the Tea Party dream of no compromise. It would be better to elect pragmatic leaders so we can have a realistic policy discussion rather than utopian and dysutopian dream meisters.
"Likewise Sanders, except in his case the glorious future is more mid-century
Scandinavia than space age America."
To those millions going bankrupt or without decent healthcare, those crushed by student debt, those ground down by working several jobs to make ends meet and without paid vacation or maternity leave or affordable childcare, those paying a higher percentage of taxes than billionaires, women seeing their reproductive rights eroded etc. etc. I'd say a bit of mid or 21st century Scandinavia might seem rather appealing if it weren't so often demonized by pundits like Ross.
Scandinavia than space age America."
To those millions going bankrupt or without decent healthcare, those crushed by student debt, those ground down by working several jobs to make ends meet and without paid vacation or maternity leave or affordable childcare, those paying a higher percentage of taxes than billionaires, women seeing their reproductive rights eroded etc. etc. I'd say a bit of mid or 21st century Scandinavia might seem rather appealing if it weren't so often demonized by pundits like Ross.
2
Ross, what is with the fixation on fecundity? You recite having fewer children as a marker of societal regression. I see it as responsible, and an advancement. Even if one were to confer rote legitimacy to the "be fruitful and multiply" tenets, they were applied in a far different age than when seven billion people abound and planetary resources are increasingly at a premium. Call off your tired anachronisms.
'The Beauty of Trump'? by Dowd, no I am going to skip that one and read what Ross Douthat has to say. A shame he is not with this American observing the aftermath of The Recession, nose glued to the train window from Grand Central, a commute only an hour away from the Big City. Dreary and depressing even in the sun and melting snow and wondering which class of society am I seeing on this journey. The 'Working People' or 'Unemployed' of America. Long, tired faces everywhere, along with resignation and good manners.
Now. Trump has made 'Politics' for the first time entertaining. Should he leave, we will fall asleep again most likely, while Sanders is the Spokesperson for many angry Americans, articulate, clear and on the mark. Both 'Outsiders' and able to shout, without worrying about falling on their crowns. Not planning to recognize dangerous Cruz, a cobra among the mangoose.
We do not have a Republican candidate. We have a brilliant President. We do not listen to him, this huge Nursery he has been guiding, and never has there been a time in my life that I remember how important it will be to vote. As of now I see only Hillary Clinton.
The rest of these hopeful politicians and show persons continue to fade, they are not going to make America 'Great' not once, let alone again, and whether the People unite in an effort to help each other remains to be seen, while standing behind our new Leader. Hillary Clinton may pull it off.
Now. Trump has made 'Politics' for the first time entertaining. Should he leave, we will fall asleep again most likely, while Sanders is the Spokesperson for many angry Americans, articulate, clear and on the mark. Both 'Outsiders' and able to shout, without worrying about falling on their crowns. Not planning to recognize dangerous Cruz, a cobra among the mangoose.
We do not have a Republican candidate. We have a brilliant President. We do not listen to him, this huge Nursery he has been guiding, and never has there been a time in my life that I remember how important it will be to vote. As of now I see only Hillary Clinton.
The rest of these hopeful politicians and show persons continue to fade, they are not going to make America 'Great' not once, let alone again, and whether the People unite in an effort to help each other remains to be seen, while standing behind our new Leader. Hillary Clinton may pull it off.
2
Cogent and clear. The numbers, hard-wired voter behavior, a precision Obama-style get every last vote to the polls effort, the Republican disarray, history and experience all point to Hillary as our first Woman president. She might even get a mandate big enough to club enough courage into moderate Republicans for a majority. Like Obama, the call of history as the first Woman to lead America will instill Hillary Clinton with a steely resolve to meet the opposition head-on and fight tooth and nail to beat them. To succeed she must smash deeply held stereotypes of weak, indecisive, impulsive women. Obama was inhibited by racist expectations of an angry Black man, sputtering in ghetto patois, ruled by emotion and frustration, a switchblade in his pocket. The slightest evidence of any racist expectation met by Obama and every American Black would pay the price. Hillary arrives beholden to women, accountable to history and with the whole world watching. Nobody owns or bribes someone standing on the threshold of women for the first time holding up the entire sky. The only obstacle is $900 million the Koch boys have posted as bounty for Hillary. They have and will invest heavily in Bernie's campaign, not that he can win but the Koch agents will egg zealots to suicide bomb Hillary, to smear her so she is a diminished leader and Americans remain restive and unsettled so Republican cannibals can continue their feast.
1
Voters are disgusted with establishment politicians who pay lip service to the masses to get elected and then ignore them.
Voters are tired of a Washington that is so wedded to ideology and party lines that it purposely accomplishes nothing. Republicans are especially guilty of this.
Voters are sick of politicians who fiddle while Rome burns.
I think Trump is a lousy solution to the above. But others see him differently.
The fact that pundits like Mr. Douthat are still mystified by these simple concepts shows that the pundits are part of the problem.
Voters are tired of a Washington that is so wedded to ideology and party lines that it purposely accomplishes nothing. Republicans are especially guilty of this.
Voters are sick of politicians who fiddle while Rome burns.
I think Trump is a lousy solution to the above. But others see him differently.
The fact that pundits like Mr. Douthat are still mystified by these simple concepts shows that the pundits are part of the problem.
2
The answer for 2016, at the presidential level, is to re-elect the Democratic nominee. She will almost certainly be Hillary Clinton, despite desperate attempts to bring her down. But, like President Obama, she will have an uphill battle getting good things done that begin to even the field on incomes and opportunities for middle class Americans, because she will be contending with the same (probably) Republican majorities in both the House and the Senate who prefer to block almost anything rather than join a Democratic president in moving things ahead. As for "decadence," whatever Ross Douthat means by that term rests, politically, very clearly in the hands of the Republicans. Douthat seems to reject Trump or Sanders, so who does he support? The obvious answer has to be Hillary Clinton (Democrat) or someone yet to rise to the top among the sensible Republicans (certainly not Rubio or Christie, so that means Jeb or Kasich).
1
Another wishful thinking piece.
The only decadence in this society is the one the big corporations and the very wealthy are enjoying with their financial hold over politicians. Their foundations and lobbyists have organized well at the local and national level and have effectively cornered the political game. Nobody can close the loopholes that hedge fund managers use to pay ridiculously low taxes, or the ones corporations use to avoid taxes, nobody can ban assault rifles, it's impossible to convict executives who broke the law (only their companies are fined if they launder money received in shoeboxes!)... I can go on and on. All the gains since 2008 have gone to the very top. These are the results of their decadence.
It seems to be the center-right's new hobby to lump Sanders with Trump. I know it makes them feel better about the whole Trump leading in the polls thing. If you spend 2 minutes listening to Sanders speak, look at his proposals, you see how coherent and intelligent he is. He is promising the impossible, but his intellect and ideas are real.
The only decadence in this society is the one the big corporations and the very wealthy are enjoying with their financial hold over politicians. Their foundations and lobbyists have organized well at the local and national level and have effectively cornered the political game. Nobody can close the loopholes that hedge fund managers use to pay ridiculously low taxes, or the ones corporations use to avoid taxes, nobody can ban assault rifles, it's impossible to convict executives who broke the law (only their companies are fined if they launder money received in shoeboxes!)... I can go on and on. All the gains since 2008 have gone to the very top. These are the results of their decadence.
It seems to be the center-right's new hobby to lump Sanders with Trump. I know it makes them feel better about the whole Trump leading in the polls thing. If you spend 2 minutes listening to Sanders speak, look at his proposals, you see how coherent and intelligent he is. He is promising the impossible, but his intellect and ideas are real.
351
Sir: You say, "If you spend 2 minutes listening to Sanders speak, look at his proposals, you see how coherent and intelligent he is. He is promising the impossible, but his intellect and ideas are real." Why is what he is promising impossible? Most of Western Europe, not to mention our wonderful northern neighbor live in countries where Bernie's ideas are part of the governance pretty independent of which is the elected party for higher office. By calling very possible things "impossible," let us not create a utopia for what is the norm for most of the civilized world.
2
Mr. Douthat is just the latest to present Trump and Sanders as opposite ends of the spectrum that are somehow equivalent.
Ask yourself this: which of the two is more likely to send thugs with baseball bats to scare and chase the elderly from their homes?
Answer: Trump, who did exactly that when I was living as a student in New York City in the 1980's. To clear the way for one of his Manhattan real estate "deals" Trump sent thugs in the middle of the night to scare elderly apartment residents enough that they would leave. Friends of mine sat in the lobbies of these buildings through the night as a thin line of defense for these residents. Every time Trump promises to "Make America Great Again", I remember what he did and I vomit. His version of greatness seems to require preying on and terrifying the weak for his own selfish ends.
Sanders may have some ideas that will prove difficult to implement should he be elected, but he easily passes the vomit test that Trump has so clearly failed. They are not equivalent in any way.
Ask yourself this: which of the two is more likely to send thugs with baseball bats to scare and chase the elderly from their homes?
Answer: Trump, who did exactly that when I was living as a student in New York City in the 1980's. To clear the way for one of his Manhattan real estate "deals" Trump sent thugs in the middle of the night to scare elderly apartment residents enough that they would leave. Friends of mine sat in the lobbies of these buildings through the night as a thin line of defense for these residents. Every time Trump promises to "Make America Great Again", I remember what he did and I vomit. His version of greatness seems to require preying on and terrifying the weak for his own selfish ends.
Sanders may have some ideas that will prove difficult to implement should he be elected, but he easily passes the vomit test that Trump has so clearly failed. They are not equivalent in any way.
2
Mr. Douthat had the Republicans cooperated with President Obama from day one in 2009, and actually extended a hand instead of a single digit (pardon the vulgarity) and worked in concert with their Democratic counterparts in both the House and Senate, there would be much less dissatisfaction in this country. When the economy was in free fall thanks to nothing more than greed on Wall Street, instead of "no' on every proposal, the Republicans could have actually worked with the President to put people to work. Everyone, even the Republicans would have benefited from employing people to rebuild our aging infrastructure, plowing money into scientific research of all types including climate change, and seeking to develop alternative sources of energy. The economic recovery would have boomed. Instead, because the Republicans wanted nothing more than austerity, we had to settle for managing a much weaker and more tenuous recovery. As a result wages stagnated, many jobs disappeared and the Middle Class deteriorated.
That Mr. Douthat has led to dissatisfaction among voters, and many want Sanders or Trump because they view them as offering a change in the way things are done in Washington. The thing is, as President Obama found out, you have to have a cooperative Congress willing to work with you to effect change and fulfill visions.
That Mr. Douthat has led to dissatisfaction among voters, and many want Sanders or Trump because they view them as offering a change in the way things are done in Washington. The thing is, as President Obama found out, you have to have a cooperative Congress willing to work with you to effect change and fulfill visions.
1
Mr. Douthat,
As a conservative, you should re-read Tocqueville, Durkheim, Weber and Eliot to get more clarity on what is going on in 2016: people are communicating more than ever, but relationships are thinner and less gratifying; they are working harder but getting paid less;they are told that to be successful they have to earn more and live better lives than their parents; and if they don't, it is their fault.
Our society is suffering from anomie and hyper-individualism. Intermediary associations, including labor unions, political parties, churches, and communal associations are in decline. People lack traditions and values that would anchor their lives and give them meaning and direction.
It is not surprising that demagogues and snake-oil salesmen are gathering large followings. But I wouldn't put Senator Bernie Sanders in that category. He is an idealist and reformer in the tradition of Wendell Philips, John Peter Altgeld, Eugene Debs, Scott and Helen Nearing, Robert La Follette, and Henry Wallace--an honorable tradition of American dissent.
As a conservative, you should re-read Tocqueville, Durkheim, Weber and Eliot to get more clarity on what is going on in 2016: people are communicating more than ever, but relationships are thinner and less gratifying; they are working harder but getting paid less;they are told that to be successful they have to earn more and live better lives than their parents; and if they don't, it is their fault.
Our society is suffering from anomie and hyper-individualism. Intermediary associations, including labor unions, political parties, churches, and communal associations are in decline. People lack traditions and values that would anchor their lives and give them meaning and direction.
It is not surprising that demagogues and snake-oil salesmen are gathering large followings. But I wouldn't put Senator Bernie Sanders in that category. He is an idealist and reformer in the tradition of Wendell Philips, John Peter Altgeld, Eugene Debs, Scott and Helen Nearing, Robert La Follette, and Henry Wallace--an honorable tradition of American dissent.
I will be ready for Medicare in a few months as one of those "older Americans, who grew up amid the post-World War II boom, the vaulting optimism of the space age, the years when big government and big business were seen as effective and patriotic rather than sclerotic and corrupt."
I remember worrying about dying in a nuclear war ("duck and cover" starting in elementary school), about dying in Vietnam (my draft physical made 18 a much scarier birthday than 65 will be), about having enough money to pay for subway fare during the recessions of 1974-75 and 1980-82, about dying of AIDS like many of my friends, about getting sick without health insurance even in the 1970s, and about so many things I no longer have to worry about.
Technology has been a boon, not a disappointment. Thanks to Medicare, Obamacare, Social Security and a much better stock market than in the turgid 1970s, I am more secure than I have ever been.
Lots of us older Americans are not angry, I can assure you. Most of us will not be voting for Trump, Cruz or even Sanders.
I remember worrying about dying in a nuclear war ("duck and cover" starting in elementary school), about dying in Vietnam (my draft physical made 18 a much scarier birthday than 65 will be), about having enough money to pay for subway fare during the recessions of 1974-75 and 1980-82, about dying of AIDS like many of my friends, about getting sick without health insurance even in the 1970s, and about so many things I no longer have to worry about.
Technology has been a boon, not a disappointment. Thanks to Medicare, Obamacare, Social Security and a much better stock market than in the turgid 1970s, I am more secure than I have ever been.
Lots of us older Americans are not angry, I can assure you. Most of us will not be voting for Trump, Cruz or even Sanders.
The answer to "why now" is because too many people see the system as rigged. For 35 years "conservatives" have tilted this government right-ward. They bankrupted the government ("drowned it the bathtub" to quote Grover Norquist), cut taxes on the rich, stagnated wages, destroyed the purchasing power of the middle class and then saddled them with consumer and student debt.
Many Americans are angry and are looking for someone to blame. Trump tells them to blame Muslims and Mexicans, but by channeling George Wallace he appeals to their fears and racism. Yet Trump has no solutions. He's all brash and bluster.
Sanders would channel that anger into economic change. Help, not blame, people down on their luck. Make the people who have benefited pay the taxes they have avoided. Keep companies and jobs in America. Recognize that full time employment should not result in poverty or needing food stamps to survive. Sanders wants to build a movement to make America better by working together against greed and selfishness. Trump voters want the same things as Sanders voters, but where Bernie speaks to the better angels of our nature, Donald speaks to those dark recesses in our psyche and would give us permission to let our uglier impulses rule us and rule this country.
Nothing is virtuous or noble about Trump or anything he says. Bernie and his supporters want justice and fairness. They're not radical or extreme. They espouse bedrock American principles. It's just common sense.
Many Americans are angry and are looking for someone to blame. Trump tells them to blame Muslims and Mexicans, but by channeling George Wallace he appeals to their fears and racism. Yet Trump has no solutions. He's all brash and bluster.
Sanders would channel that anger into economic change. Help, not blame, people down on their luck. Make the people who have benefited pay the taxes they have avoided. Keep companies and jobs in America. Recognize that full time employment should not result in poverty or needing food stamps to survive. Sanders wants to build a movement to make America better by working together against greed and selfishness. Trump voters want the same things as Sanders voters, but where Bernie speaks to the better angels of our nature, Donald speaks to those dark recesses in our psyche and would give us permission to let our uglier impulses rule us and rule this country.
Nothing is virtuous or noble about Trump or anything he says. Bernie and his supporters want justice and fairness. They're not radical or extreme. They espouse bedrock American principles. It's just common sense.
1
People are fed up because the middle class is disappearing — the real income of the bottom 80% has remained flat for the past 30 years, while *all* the income growth went to the top economic slice. So the immediate experience of most Americans is that things have not been getting better for a long long time now. Sanders is identifying this as the problem, while Trump is blathering on with catchphrases and empty promises, and rousing the prejudices of the angry mob, who are looking for simple explanations, easy solutions, and identifiable enemies.
Both are trying to speak to the anger of the majority, but one is trying to look at actual problems and solutions. The other is a rabble-rouser who thinks that the the only real problem is that there are millions of Muslims and Mexicans flooding into the country.
Both are trying to speak to the anger of the majority, but one is trying to look at actual problems and solutions. The other is a rabble-rouser who thinks that the the only real problem is that there are millions of Muslims and Mexicans flooding into the country.
1
I completely disagree, and the failure of this analysis is due to the ridiculous claims of symmetry on the two sides. What happened is that Obama, a very centrist person was elected. But he is black. This caused Republicans, fueled by the tea party, to move to the extreme nutball right, doing nothing but opposing Obama and criticizing him to the extreme no matter what he did. The other factor was the financial crisis, which divided the public in clear ways - the "blame the government no matter what" Republicans who allied with the wealthy bankers who didn't want to be help responsible. And the people who recognize that the crisis was caused by reckless banking and financial practices. Together, this set up a highly polarized electorate - the nativist and racist right who want to fight back against the very idea of diversity, and idealistic progressives who saw that Obama's attempts to be conciliatory and compromise didn't accomplish anything, but rather invited scorn. So it's not the condition of the country driving this, it is the political environment per-se.
1
The reason, apparently, that establishment types like Mr. Douthat--and I'm including a LOT of establishment types here, on both sides of the political divide--are so worried about Sanders, and Trump, is that if either one is elected, there are likely to be attempts on the winners' parts to alter a system that for now is working rather well for elite establishment types (Republican and Democrat)--and has been working well, for them, for a long time.
The establishment types are simply afraid that if either gets into the oval office, the nice train ride they've been on might be over--or it'll at least get more expensive and a little less luxurious than it's been.
Sanders is, technically, the lesser threat--he just wants to extend the luxuries of income stability, no-worry health care, and an actual voice in policy to a considerably larger share of the population than currently has it. Of course, among the social Darwinist/Calvinist conservatives, that's galling because "those people" don't deserve that, haven't "earned it"--but that's a rant for another fifteen hundred characters.
Trump, though--who knows what he really believes, policy wise, and what he would do if he won (though emblazoning his face on the Presidential seal might be a good bet).
Elites, establishment types, and their ilk want stability--mostly their own. What frightens them about Trump and Sanders is the specter of actual possible change--even minor--in their relative comfort and influence.
The establishment types are simply afraid that if either gets into the oval office, the nice train ride they've been on might be over--or it'll at least get more expensive and a little less luxurious than it's been.
Sanders is, technically, the lesser threat--he just wants to extend the luxuries of income stability, no-worry health care, and an actual voice in policy to a considerably larger share of the population than currently has it. Of course, among the social Darwinist/Calvinist conservatives, that's galling because "those people" don't deserve that, haven't "earned it"--but that's a rant for another fifteen hundred characters.
Trump, though--who knows what he really believes, policy wise, and what he would do if he won (though emblazoning his face on the Presidential seal might be a good bet).
Elites, establishment types, and their ilk want stability--mostly their own. What frightens them about Trump and Sanders is the specter of actual possible change--even minor--in their relative comfort and influence.
1
Sanders supporters see a corrupt education, medical and financial system.
Trump wants to build a 1000 mile wall costing billions.
Meanwhile, high school graduates on both the Democratic and Republican can not understand if you have third world skills, you earn third world wages regardless of where you live. And as far as college grads, if your work can be digitized, you aren't safe either.
Neither side really has an answer for the job losses from technology and robotics, and those funding the "establishment" Republicans and Democrats need ever expanding free trade zones to gather more customers. Even though much of this trade hurts our workers incomes, the donors love the increasing sales which boosts the value of their stock certificates. Ross so dearly wants to elect one of these candidates. Why?
On the Republican side there is lots of anger, few solutions and a bunch of egomaniacs thinking they are the chosen one, with Trump the leader. Why Ross is so against them is hard to understand - most are very religious. In any event, not much can be delivered to them, except taking their health insurance away.
Unless this is a landslide election look for more of the same. Even in victory, Republicans simply will not address anything this country faces through fiscal policy. If they lose, they will never co-operate with Hillary or Sanders. They will scorch the earth as with Obama, although the racism will be probably replaced with sexism or communist witch hunting.
Trump wants to build a 1000 mile wall costing billions.
Meanwhile, high school graduates on both the Democratic and Republican can not understand if you have third world skills, you earn third world wages regardless of where you live. And as far as college grads, if your work can be digitized, you aren't safe either.
Neither side really has an answer for the job losses from technology and robotics, and those funding the "establishment" Republicans and Democrats need ever expanding free trade zones to gather more customers. Even though much of this trade hurts our workers incomes, the donors love the increasing sales which boosts the value of their stock certificates. Ross so dearly wants to elect one of these candidates. Why?
On the Republican side there is lots of anger, few solutions and a bunch of egomaniacs thinking they are the chosen one, with Trump the leader. Why Ross is so against them is hard to understand - most are very religious. In any event, not much can be delivered to them, except taking their health insurance away.
Unless this is a landslide election look for more of the same. Even in victory, Republicans simply will not address anything this country faces through fiscal policy. If they lose, they will never co-operate with Hillary or Sanders. They will scorch the earth as with Obama, although the racism will be probably replaced with sexism or communist witch hunting.
Americans are discontent because we're not advancing the way we think we should? That is a bold statement from a conservative whose representatives in Congress work tirelessly to bring the country to a grinding halt because they erroneously believe they aren't getting their way. As they unflinchingly pass meaningless bills to repeal the ACA, abortion rights, environmental protections, disbanding of unions and collective bargaining rights, defunding Planned Parenthood, and shutting down government in a useless display of warped ideology, representing years of wasted legislative effort, simply to be able to go back to their constituents, most of whom are benefitting from it, and say "see, I voted to repeal Obamacare". Then they can get re-elected to again spend years not governing.
Conservatives control both houses of congress and the supreme court. They dominate political radio. They have the most watched cable news network. Conservative columnists are on the staff of every major newspaper in the country. Yet still they pout like angry children that they're disadvantaged and not getting their way.
People are angry because they are being whipped into a rage by Ailes, Limbaugh, Hannity, and Coulter. I read your columns for the novelty of listening to a sane conservative. The electorate is angry because they have been baited with fake crises and can no longer tell fact from fiction, and the conservatives now have them right where they want them.
Conservatives control both houses of congress and the supreme court. They dominate political radio. They have the most watched cable news network. Conservative columnists are on the staff of every major newspaper in the country. Yet still they pout like angry children that they're disadvantaged and not getting their way.
People are angry because they are being whipped into a rage by Ailes, Limbaugh, Hannity, and Coulter. I read your columns for the novelty of listening to a sane conservative. The electorate is angry because they have been baited with fake crises and can no longer tell fact from fiction, and the conservatives now have them right where they want them.
A number of responders have noted the absurdity of pairing Sanders with Trump as if they represented opposite ends of the political spectrum. The proper spectrum, however measures the degree of support for constitutional principles and American ideals, not liberalism vs. conservatism.
Trump has expressed contempt for the process of government created by the Constitution, boasting of all the actions he, el presidente, will take once the voters have crowned him. His scorn for Mexicans and Muslims reflects his discomfort with the immigrant composition of the nation's population. For both of these reasons, Trump resembles a demagogue more than a democratic leader.
Sanders, on the other hand, wants to reform American institutions so that they conform more closely to our democratic ideals. Making it easier for marginalized groups to vote, while curtailing the political activities of corporations, would make government more responsive to the majority. Reforms in the financial side of higher education, more affordable healthcare, and changes in the tax structure, would all promote democracy by reducing inequality.
Nor does Sanders plan an end-run around the Constitution to achieve these goals. Comparing him with the reckless, autocratic Trump lacks plausibility on even the most superficial level.
Trump has expressed contempt for the process of government created by the Constitution, boasting of all the actions he, el presidente, will take once the voters have crowned him. His scorn for Mexicans and Muslims reflects his discomfort with the immigrant composition of the nation's population. For both of these reasons, Trump resembles a demagogue more than a democratic leader.
Sanders, on the other hand, wants to reform American institutions so that they conform more closely to our democratic ideals. Making it easier for marginalized groups to vote, while curtailing the political activities of corporations, would make government more responsive to the majority. Reforms in the financial side of higher education, more affordable healthcare, and changes in the tax structure, would all promote democracy by reducing inequality.
Nor does Sanders plan an end-run around the Constitution to achieve these goals. Comparing him with the reckless, autocratic Trump lacks plausibility on even the most superficial level.
There is an astounding lack of coherence and sense in the piece which others, even a few minutes after it went up online, have begun sufficiently to unpack.
But, really, holding up Donald Trump, a man who displays baroque levels of decadence, as the person best able to channel this supposedly new and depraved form of "decadence" the American people feel? I think not.
Americans have been hurling accusations of "decadence" at each other ever since Cotton Mather and our other Puritan preacher forebears called down the wrath of God onto the heads of their fellow citizens who'd fallen away from the righteous path.
I think the problem is a simpler one with no need to cast Donald Trump's as the agent who will dispatch our decadent ways for us. Since 2001, this country has been dealing with the results of terror, two grievous wars and financial calamity. The effects of the Financial Crisis and Great Recession continue to roll around the world in ways that have undercut the foundational beliefs that Americans--and evidently many others in Europe and Asia--have had for many years about the possibility of economic progress, security and solidarity. Faith in our institutions, buckling under the unrelenting pressures of the last fifteen years, collapses with them.
No need to call out some Roman form of "decadence" to explain any of this. The causes for our pain are right there for every one to see but no one to know what to do with.
But, really, holding up Donald Trump, a man who displays baroque levels of decadence, as the person best able to channel this supposedly new and depraved form of "decadence" the American people feel? I think not.
Americans have been hurling accusations of "decadence" at each other ever since Cotton Mather and our other Puritan preacher forebears called down the wrath of God onto the heads of their fellow citizens who'd fallen away from the righteous path.
I think the problem is a simpler one with no need to cast Donald Trump's as the agent who will dispatch our decadent ways for us. Since 2001, this country has been dealing with the results of terror, two grievous wars and financial calamity. The effects of the Financial Crisis and Great Recession continue to roll around the world in ways that have undercut the foundational beliefs that Americans--and evidently many others in Europe and Asia--have had for many years about the possibility of economic progress, security and solidarity. Faith in our institutions, buckling under the unrelenting pressures of the last fifteen years, collapses with them.
No need to call out some Roman form of "decadence" to explain any of this. The causes for our pain are right there for every one to see but no one to know what to do with.
Josh Hill's comment is directly on point: the jobs and unemployment numbers that Douthat cites do not capture the reality of workers earning half - if they're lucky - of what they used to make on factory floors. Republicans, in particular, seem uninterested in asking why there's a movement to make the minimum wage a living wage - it's because millions of Americans are actually trying to live off of it. (Many are trying to raise and feed families on it.) The GOP establishment's policies - union-busting, denial of health care, and sending as much of the fruits of labor as possible straight to the executive suite - seem designed to make their lives even worse.
Trump is clueless - he has no plan whatsoever, beyond making unspecified "smart deals" with whoever he imagines he can deal with for jobs and prosperity. Sanders' re-distributive policies may ease the pain, but they won't solve the problem either. If Ross really wants to see major, transformative investments in infrastructure, R&D, and education, and the taxes necessary to fund them, he'll have to endorse Hillary Clinton.
Trump is clueless - he has no plan whatsoever, beyond making unspecified "smart deals" with whoever he imagines he can deal with for jobs and prosperity. Sanders' re-distributive policies may ease the pain, but they won't solve the problem either. If Ross really wants to see major, transformative investments in infrastructure, R&D, and education, and the taxes necessary to fund them, he'll have to endorse Hillary Clinton.
1
Bernie Sanders represents the Democratic tradition at it's best. Few living today have a real understanding of how bad the United States was when Roosevelt took office.
"We have come to a clear realization of the fact that true individual freedom cannot exist without economic security & independence. "Necessitous men are not free men." People who are hungry & out of a job are the stuff of which dictatorships are made...
We have accepted, so to speak, a second Bill of Rights under which a new basis of security and prosperity can be established for all regardless of station, race, or creed.
Among these are:
The right to a useful and remunerative job...
The right to earn enough to provide adequate food and clothing and recreation;
The right of every farmer to raise and sell his products at a return which will give him and his family a decent living;
The right of every businessman, large and small, to trade in an atmosphere of freedom from unfair competition and domination by monopolies at home or abroad;
The right of every family to a decent home;
The right to adequate medical care...
The right to adequate protection from the economic fears of old age, sickness, accident & unemployment;
The right to a good education.
America's own rightful place in the world depends in large part upon how fully these and similar rights have been carried into practice for our citizens. For unless there is security here at home there cannot be lasting peace in the world."
Franklin Roosevelt
"We have come to a clear realization of the fact that true individual freedom cannot exist without economic security & independence. "Necessitous men are not free men." People who are hungry & out of a job are the stuff of which dictatorships are made...
We have accepted, so to speak, a second Bill of Rights under which a new basis of security and prosperity can be established for all regardless of station, race, or creed.
Among these are:
The right to a useful and remunerative job...
The right to earn enough to provide adequate food and clothing and recreation;
The right of every farmer to raise and sell his products at a return which will give him and his family a decent living;
The right of every businessman, large and small, to trade in an atmosphere of freedom from unfair competition and domination by monopolies at home or abroad;
The right of every family to a decent home;
The right to adequate medical care...
The right to adequate protection from the economic fears of old age, sickness, accident & unemployment;
The right to a good education.
America's own rightful place in the world depends in large part upon how fully these and similar rights have been carried into practice for our citizens. For unless there is security here at home there cannot be lasting peace in the world."
Franklin Roosevelt
2
"... the Revolt Against Predatory Greed" or
"... the Revolt Against Relative Decline" would be more insightful headlines.
Why are voters angry now? They have reached the point of mass recognition that the tangible decline which has been afoot for decades has been designed, enabled, and delivered by the business and political establishment of both parties. Since it's both parties, voters cannot turn to the "loyal opposition" for a remedy.
The hard evidence: compensation as a share of GDP has reached its lowest point since the 1940s; highest health care costs in the developed world in tandem with mediocre health outcomes; the most skewed income distribution of any developed country; misbegotten wars prosecuted incompetently; failure to invest in infrastructure; and so on, even without considering the culture war topics. Only modest powers of observation are required to notice the relative decline of U.S. outcomes in education, health care, transportation and other infrastructure compared to other developed countries.
Days after his landslide 1972 reelection, Richard Nixon was quoted in an interview with The Washington Times-News: the leadership class has failed America. What an unintended disclosure and an accurate forecast.
"... the Revolt Against Relative Decline" would be more insightful headlines.
Why are voters angry now? They have reached the point of mass recognition that the tangible decline which has been afoot for decades has been designed, enabled, and delivered by the business and political establishment of both parties. Since it's both parties, voters cannot turn to the "loyal opposition" for a remedy.
The hard evidence: compensation as a share of GDP has reached its lowest point since the 1940s; highest health care costs in the developed world in tandem with mediocre health outcomes; the most skewed income distribution of any developed country; misbegotten wars prosecuted incompetently; failure to invest in infrastructure; and so on, even without considering the culture war topics. Only modest powers of observation are required to notice the relative decline of U.S. outcomes in education, health care, transportation and other infrastructure compared to other developed countries.
Days after his landslide 1972 reelection, Richard Nixon was quoted in an interview with The Washington Times-News: the leadership class has failed America. What an unintended disclosure and an accurate forecast.
Yes, decadence would be the correct term—that is historical decadence rather than moral decadence—though the rest of your analysis is off the rails. For one, Trumpism is not a critique of decadence, it's the embodiment of it.
Trump is not a fascist but fascism trades in the same simple solutions, the same looking for scapegoats, as Donald. And fascism like Trumpism is easy, that's it appeal: A solution that's easy and involves nothing more than voting for a rich buffoon who promises to be a strong leader.
Bernie is a weirdo candidate but his critique of the system is felt at a gut level by millions of Americans. Since the Bretton Woods global plan fell apart in the early 70's, American prosperity has not been equally shared. And even the prosperity of the 80's, 90's and ought's in which the gains of Wall Street did to a degree trickle down to Main Street, was based on people using credit, going deep into debt, working multiple jobs, playing the market and flipping houses to compensate for stagnant wages.
American wage growth has been stagnant since the 70's while at the same time a new class of super rich billionaires, mostly in Finance, has grown obscenely wealthy at the expense of the great consuming American middle class which has now been hollowed out.
This in turn has led to a permanent crisis of "demand", and that's why "inequality" actually endangers the system itself. We can't go on this way.
The only candidate addressing this, "the real deal," is Bernie.
Trump is not a fascist but fascism trades in the same simple solutions, the same looking for scapegoats, as Donald. And fascism like Trumpism is easy, that's it appeal: A solution that's easy and involves nothing more than voting for a rich buffoon who promises to be a strong leader.
Bernie is a weirdo candidate but his critique of the system is felt at a gut level by millions of Americans. Since the Bretton Woods global plan fell apart in the early 70's, American prosperity has not been equally shared. And even the prosperity of the 80's, 90's and ought's in which the gains of Wall Street did to a degree trickle down to Main Street, was based on people using credit, going deep into debt, working multiple jobs, playing the market and flipping houses to compensate for stagnant wages.
American wage growth has been stagnant since the 70's while at the same time a new class of super rich billionaires, mostly in Finance, has grown obscenely wealthy at the expense of the great consuming American middle class which has now been hollowed out.
This in turn has led to a permanent crisis of "demand", and that's why "inequality" actually endangers the system itself. We can't go on this way.
The only candidate addressing this, "the real deal," is Bernie.
When will we accept that National Currencies are just electrons on computer chips. A kind employee could add two zeroes to the end of your bank account and chances are no one would know the difference.
Why do we assume there is enough "money" in circulation to provide for the needs of every citizen ? What economic genius knew/knows exactly how much
money should be in circulation ?
If you argue: Well just turning on the printing presses 24/7 will lead to inflation, why don't you ask why it helps the national economy that 1% of the population controls 55 % of the economy - have more money than they could ever spend -
while 25 % of the population barely has any savings or cash on hand at the end of each month ?
Let us be honest - there is no need for anyone to be desperately poor in America, to be expected to live off of minimum wages.
Why don't we rebuild the entire transportation system.
Add an extra lane to the Interstate for long haul truck only.
Widen the tracks for the Railroads and power them by Solar/Hydrogen power.
Tear down our slums.
Build new schools, new hospitals, restructure our prisons,
reform our "lack of Justice" system...
Renew America like we did after World War II.
Why do we assume there is enough "money" in circulation to provide for the needs of every citizen ? What economic genius knew/knows exactly how much
money should be in circulation ?
If you argue: Well just turning on the printing presses 24/7 will lead to inflation, why don't you ask why it helps the national economy that 1% of the population controls 55 % of the economy - have more money than they could ever spend -
while 25 % of the population barely has any savings or cash on hand at the end of each month ?
Let us be honest - there is no need for anyone to be desperately poor in America, to be expected to live off of minimum wages.
Why don't we rebuild the entire transportation system.
Add an extra lane to the Interstate for long haul truck only.
Widen the tracks for the Railroads and power them by Solar/Hydrogen power.
Tear down our slums.
Build new schools, new hospitals, restructure our prisons,
reform our "lack of Justice" system...
Renew America like we did after World War II.
1
Trump resists the "decadence", while Sanders accepts it. It is Capitalism vs. Communism. The individual vs. the collective. This is the same tension we have had for well over 100 years; how to distribute the wealth.
The global economy has necessarily led, given our free market system, to a reduction of most folks standard of living and wage stagnation. This is due to the untrammeled profit seeking by Corporations who shift work overseas, utilize low cost labor of immigrants, mechanize production, the weakening of unions and by shifting their tax burden to the middle class by incorporating in tax friendly countries.
Trump's solution to the problem is to become protectionist and nationalistic. Sanders will turn the country into Sweden. The solution is somewhere in between. We need to control immigration, measure and tax Corporations on the basis of employment in addition to profit, encourage strong unions which still maintaining right to work laws, lower college education costs dramatically, perhaps base tax on Corporations on what they sell here, etc.
The most immediate thing the candidates should do is tell everyone that things are not going to be like they used to be and that nostalgia is counterproductive. That we live in a new world where to keep the peace wealth must be shared with everyone. And to do this and be happy we must become more generous, more virtuous
One thing is certain. This is going to be a hard sell and an even harder buy.
The global economy has necessarily led, given our free market system, to a reduction of most folks standard of living and wage stagnation. This is due to the untrammeled profit seeking by Corporations who shift work overseas, utilize low cost labor of immigrants, mechanize production, the weakening of unions and by shifting their tax burden to the middle class by incorporating in tax friendly countries.
Trump's solution to the problem is to become protectionist and nationalistic. Sanders will turn the country into Sweden. The solution is somewhere in between. We need to control immigration, measure and tax Corporations on the basis of employment in addition to profit, encourage strong unions which still maintaining right to work laws, lower college education costs dramatically, perhaps base tax on Corporations on what they sell here, etc.
The most immediate thing the candidates should do is tell everyone that things are not going to be like they used to be and that nostalgia is counterproductive. That we live in a new world where to keep the peace wealth must be shared with everyone. And to do this and be happy we must become more generous, more virtuous
One thing is certain. This is going to be a hard sell and an even harder buy.
In yet another Right-wing-serving twist, Douthat diagnoses the ill of coming to terms with actions and consequences, the realities of the day, as decadence.
The misplaced idealism of the past that painted an ever brighter future was never more than wishful thinking. What is actually happening is that we are finally coming to realize that there exist complex problems that require sacrifices to overcome, and the "ever more for less" gravy train, the Gran Illusion provided by the post-War boom, is over.
Just as after fires the forest rebounds with renewed vigor, it seems only major wars can provide the short bursts of economic renewal that we still mistake for normal affairs, ever attempting to recover the 1950's boom. Otherwise, fast growth is only associated with the opening up to commerce of those few remaining areas that had not yet suffered runaway exploitation.
At least this time around in its ongoing efforts to co-opt all power, global capital is smarter, opting to promote authoritarianism and not dictatorships. What can be better than the illusion of freedom? It keeps the rabble calm, while the money still flows in one direction.
But the worst fly in the ointment is that political ideologies have already shown themselves to be hollow in their ability to deliver improvement, so we get this 21st century (no less!) return to religious nuttery across much of the globe. The real answer: simple pragmatism, science, and reason with empathy.
The misplaced idealism of the past that painted an ever brighter future was never more than wishful thinking. What is actually happening is that we are finally coming to realize that there exist complex problems that require sacrifices to overcome, and the "ever more for less" gravy train, the Gran Illusion provided by the post-War boom, is over.
Just as after fires the forest rebounds with renewed vigor, it seems only major wars can provide the short bursts of economic renewal that we still mistake for normal affairs, ever attempting to recover the 1950's boom. Otherwise, fast growth is only associated with the opening up to commerce of those few remaining areas that had not yet suffered runaway exploitation.
At least this time around in its ongoing efforts to co-opt all power, global capital is smarter, opting to promote authoritarianism and not dictatorships. What can be better than the illusion of freedom? It keeps the rabble calm, while the money still flows in one direction.
But the worst fly in the ointment is that political ideologies have already shown themselves to be hollow in their ability to deliver improvement, so we get this 21st century (no less!) return to religious nuttery across much of the globe. The real answer: simple pragmatism, science, and reason with empathy.
It is unreasonable for people to expect things to continually improve at a fast and exciting pace. Just because accomplishments and technological achievements are coming more slowly and are less spectacular doesn't mean they are not happening.
The standard of living in the US is another questions. The first definition of decadence I found is: "the action of falling into an inferior condition." I find it odd that Mr. Douthat suggests that Trump could lead us out of decadence, as though he (Trump) has suggested some policies or even ideas that might improve the situation for the average US citizen. Most of the blame for the decline in living standards in the US falls on Republican policies and I have heard nothing from any of the candidates that will improve that, and nothing of substance at all from Trump.
In fact, Trump embodies the second and third definitions of decadence: "moral degeneration or decay; unrestrained or excessive self-indulgence."
The standard of living in the US is another questions. The first definition of decadence I found is: "the action of falling into an inferior condition." I find it odd that Mr. Douthat suggests that Trump could lead us out of decadence, as though he (Trump) has suggested some policies or even ideas that might improve the situation for the average US citizen. Most of the blame for the decline in living standards in the US falls on Republican policies and I have heard nothing from any of the candidates that will improve that, and nothing of substance at all from Trump.
In fact, Trump embodies the second and third definitions of decadence: "moral degeneration or decay; unrestrained or excessive self-indulgence."
Mr. Douthat,
I'm afraid you misunderstand the campaign of Bernie Sanders. It is not about throwback to how we once were, unless you want to throw back to the vision of Abrahsm Lincoln in the Gettysburg Address. It is about government "by the people" and "for the people". At present government is both by and for the entrenched super wealthy and super powerful. The systems of this country are broken. Education, social services, financial, police and justice, politics, health care, and more are meant to serve the student, the needy, the customer, the victim, the voter, the ill. I have been in the midst of all of those and know from experience that they in fact serve the funding source and the corporation at the expense of the person. Bernie Sanders is building a political revolution to change that. To return it to something it ought to be or, perhaps, make it something it has never been. This is why Bernie is the only candidate for political office I have donated to. And I have donated repeatedly. If I were not tangled in the maze of those systems, I would volunteer for Bernie Sanders. He would be the only candidate for political office I ever volunteered for. I am now and will continue to encourage all my friends - both face to face and on social media - to vote for him. His is a political revolution to change things so that the country works for the people. Not just the super wealthy or super powerful. None of the other candidates in any party intend this.
I'm afraid you misunderstand the campaign of Bernie Sanders. It is not about throwback to how we once were, unless you want to throw back to the vision of Abrahsm Lincoln in the Gettysburg Address. It is about government "by the people" and "for the people". At present government is both by and for the entrenched super wealthy and super powerful. The systems of this country are broken. Education, social services, financial, police and justice, politics, health care, and more are meant to serve the student, the needy, the customer, the victim, the voter, the ill. I have been in the midst of all of those and know from experience that they in fact serve the funding source and the corporation at the expense of the person. Bernie Sanders is building a political revolution to change that. To return it to something it ought to be or, perhaps, make it something it has never been. This is why Bernie is the only candidate for political office I have donated to. And I have donated repeatedly. If I were not tangled in the maze of those systems, I would volunteer for Bernie Sanders. He would be the only candidate for political office I ever volunteered for. I am now and will continue to encourage all my friends - both face to face and on social media - to vote for him. His is a political revolution to change things so that the country works for the people. Not just the super wealthy or super powerful. None of the other candidates in any party intend this.
2
Why do commentators and political insiders find it so hard to understand that we are sick and tired of a Congress that is bought and sold and of a national public policy that places, all the time, the profit goals of the biggest corporations ahead of the needs of the American people?
Poverty is widespread in America. Wages have stagnated for thirty or more years. Health care, housing, and a college education are financially out of reach for too many - way too many - of our people and our public schools are in sad and sorry condition. Our roads, our bridges, our power plants, our water systems are all in awful condition. We tolerate incredible injustices in our criminal "justice" system and we continue to be plagued by pervasive racism and by a cultural inability or unwillingness to celebrate knowledge and learning. We are paying a high price for these problems.
Right now we have a learned, thoughtful, honest, and reasonable man as President. He has done the best that he can with the deeply flawed system of "governance" that burdens the nation. We need a man or woman in that office who, like Mr. Obama, is honorable and decent. Mr. Sanders fits the bill. He cares about the average American and he has been consistent as an advocate for us for more than thirty years. He speaks to the need to return to the New Deal-type policies that made this country prosperous and good for decades.
We want a government that is not owned by the wealthy and that works for us.
Poverty is widespread in America. Wages have stagnated for thirty or more years. Health care, housing, and a college education are financially out of reach for too many - way too many - of our people and our public schools are in sad and sorry condition. Our roads, our bridges, our power plants, our water systems are all in awful condition. We tolerate incredible injustices in our criminal "justice" system and we continue to be plagued by pervasive racism and by a cultural inability or unwillingness to celebrate knowledge and learning. We are paying a high price for these problems.
Right now we have a learned, thoughtful, honest, and reasonable man as President. He has done the best that he can with the deeply flawed system of "governance" that burdens the nation. We need a man or woman in that office who, like Mr. Obama, is honorable and decent. Mr. Sanders fits the bill. He cares about the average American and he has been consistent as an advocate for us for more than thirty years. He speaks to the need to return to the New Deal-type policies that made this country prosperous and good for decades.
We want a government that is not owned by the wealthy and that works for us.
576
Decadence, shmacadence… Mr. Douthat, hint: the vast middle class, however you define it, has been struggling for several decades now. Contrary to what Ronald Reagan promised, a rising tide did not lift all boats. Contrary to what Bill Clinton and George H.W. Bush promised, NAFTA and free trade did not bring the tangible benefits that people were expecting, except at the top. Contrary to what George W. Bush promised, taking the war to them did not keep "them" from bringing their terrorism to us (or, more generally, to the west) and Americans don't feel safer. Barack Obama has done a lot to right the economy after the meltdown of 2007-09, but he took his eye off unemployment for too long - so while there is a recovery and a long-running bull market, the benefits haven't been flowing down to the middle class. Congress is fixated on petty squabbles and the never-ending business of fundraising and running for re-election in gerrymandered safe districts where their biggest concern is securing ever bigger donations from the ultra-wealthy.
To paraphrase an old burger commercial (probably before your time), the middle class is asking, "Where is the beef?" and not getting satisfactory answers from the powers that be. While I don't support Sanders and cannot stand Trump, I can certainly understand why many feel drawn to them. Why are so many drawn to Sanders and Trump, you ask? The answers are all there, if you know the right questions to ask and where to look for answers.
To paraphrase an old burger commercial (probably before your time), the middle class is asking, "Where is the beef?" and not getting satisfactory answers from the powers that be. While I don't support Sanders and cannot stand Trump, I can certainly understand why many feel drawn to them. Why are so many drawn to Sanders and Trump, you ask? The answers are all there, if you know the right questions to ask and where to look for answers.
5
Decadence and stagnation are not the same thing, Ross.
8
Mr. Douthat,
Sanders attracts his followers intellectually. He has no need to use sound bites, distractions, or other marketing ploys to engage them. They seek him and his beliefs out on their own volition. It is therefore no surprise that many of his followers are young and educated, and more than 40% of them are college graduates.
To dismiss his beliefs as simply socialist and denounce his vision as “a glorious future in mid-century Scandinavia”, is to discredit his bright followers and insult their intellect. And that is a shame for the future of our country.
Sanders attracts his followers intellectually. He has no need to use sound bites, distractions, or other marketing ploys to engage them. They seek him and his beliefs out on their own volition. It is therefore no surprise that many of his followers are young and educated, and more than 40% of them are college graduates.
To dismiss his beliefs as simply socialist and denounce his vision as “a glorious future in mid-century Scandinavia”, is to discredit his bright followers and insult their intellect. And that is a shame for the future of our country.
22
I read Mr. Douthat’s column with with the expectation I might learn from a well reasoned exploration. Instead, I found lazy and “dangerous” analogies. Equating electing Senator Sanders president with the Iraq war disaster, imagining that Sanders’ reasoned, well informed, principled campaign appeals to the same urges as Mr. Trump’s bombast is a fallacy that is either a function of the author’s laziness or a serious deficit of conscience.
Finally, consider this: We do not need the author (or any other elite) letting us ordinary folks know that our feelings are "legitimate, even admirable."
Finally, consider this: We do not need the author (or any other elite) letting us ordinary folks know that our feelings are "legitimate, even admirable."
8
It's inequality that was caused by our unfettered, corrupt capitalistic system that is whole heartily rigged against our own working Americans. They are being replaced in millions of jobs that they're more than qualified for by a corrupt H1-B visa policy. Even our own President along with our corrupt congress men and women are pushing to take the cap off H1-B visas. Bankers on Wall Street who should have gone to jail for causing our 2007 financial crisis and didn't ... not ONE today ! Yeah, the system is rigged. Bernie is our voice and Trump is our anger !
20
Mr hope and change did not throw one bankster in jail, our jobs don't pay very well, and our kids still live at home. Got it?
5
The fact that the "hope and change" candidate failed to deliver is part of the problem. Instead of going after corporate criminals we ended up with the TPP. The 99% have no representation. They (We) are furious and are demanding change. The powers that be are scared because the public is no longer acting like a flock of sheeple.
Until very recently I held out some small hope that the 1% would recognize that this couldn't go on forever and would be ready to back off if necessary. Unfortunately this hasn't happened.
We have seen throughout history what happens when the people are finally fed up and the ruling class refuses to give ground. Sometimes you end up with renewal, but that's the exception. In most cases, the final result isn't pretty.
Until very recently I held out some small hope that the 1% would recognize that this couldn't go on forever and would be ready to back off if necessary. Unfortunately this hasn't happened.
We have seen throughout history what happens when the people are finally fed up and the ruling class refuses to give ground. Sometimes you end up with renewal, but that's the exception. In most cases, the final result isn't pretty.
You nailed it Blue state!!
A Major factor is that every time Barack Obama proposed something that could have alleviated the problems mentioned here, the Party of NO turned it down. We could have vast numbers of people at work repairing all of the roads and bridges that are crumbling, but this might have improved economic prospects so the idea was DOA. The goal was clearly to keep anything from getting done and then blame the President because nothing got done.
8
In politics, when in doubt, follow the money. Why is Trump managing well? Money. Why did 42 or so candidates take to the Republican trail, giving their race an unprecedented tenor of constant mutual hostility? Citizens United, leading guys like Jeb running around with 100 million in the bank and nobody in the voting booth. Why is Clinton so "well established?" Speaking fees, Super PACS, decades of "connections." Why do so many of us support Sanders? Because we're so furious with money dominating democracy.
Please don't insult our intelligence, Douthat. We don't desire to "just do something." We want to restore democracy and pursue common sense policies, and we believe Bernie will try to do just that. But: he needs our help.
Please don't insult our intelligence, Douthat. We don't desire to "just do something." We want to restore democracy and pursue common sense policies, and we believe Bernie will try to do just that. But: he needs our help.
20
Bernie Sanders has the exact same position on free trade and the TPP as Donald Trump.
Many of those who ridicule climate change deniers correctly point out that 99% of all PhD meteorologists agree that carbon dioxide is associated with rising global temperatures. However free-trade opponents do not consider the fact that that 99% of all PhD economists agree that free-trade and the TPP in particular will greatly benefit America and raise standards of living .
Protectionism is the progressivism of fools. Gandhi was a great statesman but a horrible economist. Just as the ignorant in the USA argue that American workers who earn $15 per hour should not have to compete with Chinese workers who make $2 per hour, Gandhi thought that Indian workers should not have to compete with American and European workers who have the benefit of modern machines. As a result India adopted protectionism.
“....Equally unhelpful in terms of addressing the income and wealth inequality which results in the overinvestment cycle that caused the depression are various non-tax factors. Issues such as, globalization, free trade can increase the income and wealth inequality. However, these are minor when compared to the shift of the tax burden from the rich to the middle class. It is the compounding effect of shift away from taxes on capital income such as dividends each year as the rich get proverbially richer which is the prime generator of inequality…”
http://seekingalpha.com/article/1543642
Many of those who ridicule climate change deniers correctly point out that 99% of all PhD meteorologists agree that carbon dioxide is associated with rising global temperatures. However free-trade opponents do not consider the fact that that 99% of all PhD economists agree that free-trade and the TPP in particular will greatly benefit America and raise standards of living .
Protectionism is the progressivism of fools. Gandhi was a great statesman but a horrible economist. Just as the ignorant in the USA argue that American workers who earn $15 per hour should not have to compete with Chinese workers who make $2 per hour, Gandhi thought that Indian workers should not have to compete with American and European workers who have the benefit of modern machines. As a result India adopted protectionism.
“....Equally unhelpful in terms of addressing the income and wealth inequality which results in the overinvestment cycle that caused the depression are various non-tax factors. Issues such as, globalization, free trade can increase the income and wealth inequality. However, these are minor when compared to the shift of the tax burden from the rich to the middle class. It is the compounding effect of shift away from taxes on capital income such as dividends each year as the rich get proverbially richer which is the prime generator of inequality…”
http://seekingalpha.com/article/1543642
1
Protectionism was one of the 4 legs of Alexander Hamilton's scheme (called the American or Standard plan) that was adopted by every nation in the 1st world today in the 19th century. In Korea it was against the law to import a car into the country before 1987. The concept is not flaw per se. What matters is how you execute The policy: things like making sure the protected industry is not monopolized by a single firm, that there'plenty of competition and plenty of capital for the protected in dustry. The U.S. had massive tariffs right up to the 1910s.
1
Gravitating to Trump, Sanders and even Cruz because they are unhappy with the choices has more to do with the recognition that the candidates on offer have mystical lack of knowledge about how Americans are being must live today. Voters look around and understand that candidates elected to public office spontaneously lose touch with how people actually live, how businesses actually operate, how difficult raising and educatiing children has become. In most cases, candidates live in a world that none of us live in or are invited into, world almost all of us would shun if given the chance. The removal of these candidates from reality begins from the moment they leave town for Washington, D.C.
Trump might be the worst of the lot, living all year long in a penthouse or a chi chi golf resort, traveling by a jet he owns, so convinced that everything he does is correct, important, and the best that he actually made the statement that financial success has to do with his genes and nothing to do with help from his father, the bankruptcy courts, and the New York, Scottish, and Atlantic City zoning officials.
Except for Sanders and O'Malley, the candidates reside in elitist yurts. The media cites fears of terrorism, income insecurity, too much money in politics, and malaise but these are categories of problems only. With few exceptions, candidates can't even identify solutions because they haven't lived in a way that allows them to relate to the daily struggles most people face.
Trump might be the worst of the lot, living all year long in a penthouse or a chi chi golf resort, traveling by a jet he owns, so convinced that everything he does is correct, important, and the best that he actually made the statement that financial success has to do with his genes and nothing to do with help from his father, the bankruptcy courts, and the New York, Scottish, and Atlantic City zoning officials.
Except for Sanders and O'Malley, the candidates reside in elitist yurts. The media cites fears of terrorism, income insecurity, too much money in politics, and malaise but these are categories of problems only. With few exceptions, candidates can't even identify solutions because they haven't lived in a way that allows them to relate to the daily struggles most people face.
7
Republicans are deeply embarrassed about what George W. Bush did to the country, and this gets expressed as anger and hatred of Democrats and especially Mr. Obama. Since Republicans never question their own views or admit that they or their party could be wrong about anything, their frustration and rage just erupt over every little thing. So sad to watch.
4
This is a legitimate question for New Yorkers because they have not been allowed to see what a non-president has done to the country, but when everything that could be done to disparage and downgrade the U.S. has been done, the majority of us who love this country get hot under the collar.
Even loyal Dems are upset, thus they feel the Berm, too. This campaign is a revolt against political correctness that has boiled since Reagan the Employer left the White House to a weak Nice Guy. It has been building THAT long.
Even during the Bush Junior days? Especially then. Nothing infuriates patriots like a weak member of their own supposed party.
Even loyal Dems are upset, thus they feel the Berm, too. This campaign is a revolt against political correctness that has boiled since Reagan the Employer left the White House to a weak Nice Guy. It has been building THAT long.
Even during the Bush Junior days? Especially then. Nothing infuriates patriots like a weak member of their own supposed party.
It's damn lucky for Republicans that most American voters can't deal with numbers. If they could, they'd see that the troubles the middle class are having result largely from Republican policies. Since 1980, the only thing Republicans have done supposedly to stimulate growth has been two sets of tax cuts that went almost totally to the top one percent as thus had virtually no stimulative effect on the economy. Since the near depression starting in 2007, the government response has been the weakest to any recession on record, and since 2010 the impact of government spending on the economic recovery has been negative. Our 2% growth rate is in spite of Republican austerity who think deficits count only when there is a Democrat in the White House. People are flocking to the likes of Trump and Sanders because they can't grasp what is going on and are looking for somebody saying something different. What is in shortest supply in our political situation is intelligence.
7
Ross,
I suggest you go back and read at least a bit of Burke and Carlyle about events in the late 18th Century in England and France. It has often been observed that conditions in France for the poor and middle class were actually improving a bit when revolution broke out. Similarly, many have pointed out that the poor in England were just about as bad off as the poor in France. Yet (excepting the brief week of the London Lord Gordon riots of 1780), the English poor and middle classes did not revolt.
Revolutions are often said to happen when things are slightly improving anyway, but not fast enough for the people at large. And then, revolutions need leaders or they go nowhere. Bernie and Donald put themselves forward as leaders of great reform (not really revolution). And the times recently were very bad, but now are improving -- just not fast enough.
This is a common old recipe for revolt.
I suggest you go back and read at least a bit of Burke and Carlyle about events in the late 18th Century in England and France. It has often been observed that conditions in France for the poor and middle class were actually improving a bit when revolution broke out. Similarly, many have pointed out that the poor in England were just about as bad off as the poor in France. Yet (excepting the brief week of the London Lord Gordon riots of 1780), the English poor and middle classes did not revolt.
Revolutions are often said to happen when things are slightly improving anyway, but not fast enough for the people at large. And then, revolutions need leaders or they go nowhere. Bernie and Donald put themselves forward as leaders of great reform (not really revolution). And the times recently were very bad, but now are improving -- just not fast enough.
This is a common old recipe for revolt.
10
So all the NYT columnists are very scared of the possibility of change. They accuse the readers of wanting something impossible or implausible and warn us about going back to the future that never existed. The golden age was only a brief period after the war in which the old powers were rebuilding their capitals. That came to an end in the 1970s. Trump's make America great again slogan refers to that illusion, when the ruling class could afford to be taxed at 90% and profits were flowing galore. The establishment candidates, which implicitly get the support from Mr. Douthat get a free pass in this column by the assumption that things are not really that bad.
The aftermath of 2008 is precisely the realization that things are not ok. Millennials, middle and working class people, and even savvy commentators from the ruling class know that. For them it is not a moral problem. It is a real situation of stagnation and poor future prospects. The accumulation and concentration of capital goes on, the deterioration of the environment and threat of climate change, deficient health insurance, the lower participation in able bodied people in the labor force, and the precarious nature of work are some of the reasons people want change. Wall Street rule is not a good thing. People want real democracy not an oligarchy, which became palpable after 2008.
It is not moral decadence. it's that things don't look up.
The aftermath of 2008 is precisely the realization that things are not ok. Millennials, middle and working class people, and even savvy commentators from the ruling class know that. For them it is not a moral problem. It is a real situation of stagnation and poor future prospects. The accumulation and concentration of capital goes on, the deterioration of the environment and threat of climate change, deficient health insurance, the lower participation in able bodied people in the labor force, and the precarious nature of work are some of the reasons people want change. Wall Street rule is not a good thing. People want real democracy not an oligarchy, which became palpable after 2008.
It is not moral decadence. it's that things don't look up.
6
Big business and big government have merged into a single entity that is seen as sclerotic and corrupt because it is sclerotic and corrupt. Getting the country to believe that the corruption is gone without removing the corruption (i.e., hiding it better or distracting the public with something else) is not working as well as it used to. It may be necessary to actually remove some of the corruption in order to get the country to believe that it is going away.
In other words, our decadence consists of living with our insoluble problems, never being honest about them, and only finding new ways to hide them, ignore them, or use duck tape for a temporary fix.
In other words, our decadence consists of living with our insoluble problems, never being honest about them, and only finding new ways to hide them, ignore them, or use duck tape for a temporary fix.
3
I really have to sit back and have a laugh, how the press and TV media, tries to explain, the level of how, disgruntled Americans really feel, about the issues. For starters, not everyone reads the New York Times, or resides in the Northeast corridor. There are a lot of us who pay our taxes, pay our monthly mortgage payments, send our kids to University and pay for it, putting some money away, when we are no longer working.
1
Ross, reading between the lines here, you acknowledge that the economy has improved, that we are no longer in a military quagmire like the early Iraq War, that your own selected markers of moral health are improving, that the ACA did what it was supposed to...how about acknowledging that Obama's presidency is actually not the failure you would have led us to believe?
33
My take away from this piece is simply that movement conservatism is visibly dying. Good riddance!
5
My kids say they are just plain tired. We, their parents generation screwed up big time. We are leaving the planet in a much worse shape, we are leaving them with wars and disharmony, religious and cultural bickering they are sick and tired of hearing. They see it plain and simple. The political system is corrupt. In third world countries, it is called corruption, lack of transparency. Here in the US, it is corruption in broad daylight. The highest donors get favors from politicians. They get to dictate what or what not to do. They get wealthier while the rest of us watch in disbelief.
But my kids don't like Trump's method of revolt. They have grown up in a much diverse and pluralistic America, they cannot forgive him for lashing out at Mexicans, immigrants and Muslims who don't look like Trump and his supporters. They dislike Trump and his foul mouth, even if its a show, its not the way decent folks behave. Being rich and wealthy like Trump does not mean he can be indecent and boorish and hurtful.
But my kids don't like Trump's method of revolt. They have grown up in a much diverse and pluralistic America, they cannot forgive him for lashing out at Mexicans, immigrants and Muslims who don't look like Trump and his supporters. They dislike Trump and his foul mouth, even if its a show, its not the way decent folks behave. Being rich and wealthy like Trump does not mean he can be indecent and boorish and hurtful.
14
Your premise that Trump and Sanders represent the majority of U.S. voters is a false one. They may be polling well, but neither has any chance of becoming President. The press needs to report facts, not opinions.
1
The candidate whose electability I'm most concerned about is Hillary Clinton.
It's clear at this point that Clinton lied about her email account. It's entirely possible she will be indicted during the campaign, at which point I shudder to think of the possibility of electing a Democrat for president should she have a significant lead in the delegate count yet have to quit the race.
It's clear at this point that Clinton lied about her email account. It's entirely possible she will be indicted during the campaign, at which point I shudder to think of the possibility of electing a Democrat for president should she have a significant lead in the delegate count yet have to quit the race.
Except on the Opinion Pages, that they call them opinion for a reason.
Who would ever imagine that I would find myself in the embarrassing position of defending Mr. Douthat. What is next defending Mr. Mephistopheles?
Who would ever imagine that I would find myself in the embarrassing position of defending Mr. Douthat. What is next defending Mr. Mephistopheles?
1
The lumping of Sen Sanders with Trump is so cheap and foolish that every time it appears, it becomes harder and harder to take its proponent seriously. The over 50 crowd (and I am one of them) gets very excited about the phrase "democratic socialist" but it means nothing to the vast majority of people. The fact is that the New Deal, New Frontier and Great Society put us on the path to an American version of what Sen Sanders supports. There is nothing radical about it, though his somewhat fantastical dreams of how to accomplish what he proposes (and which I support) may be. He is, though, a reasonable candidate for president, though I do not support him at the present. Trump, on the other hand, is a cartoon character, and the fact that anybody envisions him as a potential president is a commentary on the state of our country, and the failure of our educational system than anything else.
8
This article has twisted things a bit and is also somewhat pedestrian in its philosophical musings. But first let's deal with the misrepresentations.
The author suggests the Bernie Sanders is advocating for, essentially, just one thing: A better welfare state and a better safety net. If it weren't for the case New York Times v Sullivan, I would say that Douthat is libeling Sanders. (The aforementioned case ruled that in the field of politics it should be hard to prevail in defamation suits because we don't want to chill political speech.)
Sanders pleads for much more than a better welfare state. He wants to bash and smash the nexus between fundraising and politics which makes our system so undemocratic. He wants to cease giving the super rich special privileges. He wants to make our system of taxation fairer to the middle class by discarding the myriad loopholes, shelters and fraudulent but legal mechanisms the rich use to avoid paying taxes.
Also, Douthat doesn't realize that this is just the time for a sharp left turn. Political scientists have long known that Leftist potential is at its greatest when people have been promised reforms and those promises did not bear fruit. We elected Obama, he did not give us what we pled for and now people yearn for the real thing.
The author suggests the Bernie Sanders is advocating for, essentially, just one thing: A better welfare state and a better safety net. If it weren't for the case New York Times v Sullivan, I would say that Douthat is libeling Sanders. (The aforementioned case ruled that in the field of politics it should be hard to prevail in defamation suits because we don't want to chill political speech.)
Sanders pleads for much more than a better welfare state. He wants to bash and smash the nexus between fundraising and politics which makes our system so undemocratic. He wants to cease giving the super rich special privileges. He wants to make our system of taxation fairer to the middle class by discarding the myriad loopholes, shelters and fraudulent but legal mechanisms the rich use to avoid paying taxes.
Also, Douthat doesn't realize that this is just the time for a sharp left turn. Political scientists have long known that Leftist potential is at its greatest when people have been promised reforms and those promises did not bear fruit. We elected Obama, he did not give us what we pled for and now people yearn for the real thing.
6
The tell comes from Hillary who, from her last debate, pretty much said she is running for an Obama 3rd term.
She is running on: More of the same; No we cannot and the audacity of hope.
Obama did stop the great recession, he then helped see Wall Street restored to its former position, in fact its even stronger. and Main Street? Well not so much.
We learned a lesson. What a politician says matters less than who they take money from. In a sense, you do not vote for the candidate, you vote for the candidates donors. A vote for Hillary is a vote for Goldman Sachs.
Bernie takes money only from ordinary people. Therefore he will represent the ordinary people.
Trump cannot be bought.
Burnie will not be bought.
This is the source of the angst for the people rich enough and in the habit of buying politicians. If Bernie gets elected, they better get used to it. At least Trump will returns their calls.
She is running on: More of the same; No we cannot and the audacity of hope.
Obama did stop the great recession, he then helped see Wall Street restored to its former position, in fact its even stronger. and Main Street? Well not so much.
We learned a lesson. What a politician says matters less than who they take money from. In a sense, you do not vote for the candidate, you vote for the candidates donors. A vote for Hillary is a vote for Goldman Sachs.
Bernie takes money only from ordinary people. Therefore he will represent the ordinary people.
Trump cannot be bought.
Burnie will not be bought.
This is the source of the angst for the people rich enough and in the habit of buying politicians. If Bernie gets elected, they better get used to it. At least Trump will returns their calls.
Trump and Sanders are not at all the same. Trump has demonstrated an ability to destroy the normal primary process of all the candidates trying to manipulate said process to their advantage. If the Republican primary process is at all iconic of the way Washington works, an elected Trump may be able to do things that the experts now see as impossible. He might go after waste in the military and succeed, for instance; there are a few expensive weapons systems that desperately need a Trump's mockery. Nobody knows what he can do and nobody knows what he will do, including Trump himself.
Sanders is an open book. We know the broad outlines of what he wants to do -- not a welfare state but rather one where everyone has a job that pays halfway decently and our current income redistribution towards the rich is brought back closer to what it used to be. Assessing his ideas and accepting or rejecting them, rather than closing our ears to them because they might involve more taxes, is what he will try to get the country to do. The honest assessment will be blocked at every turn by the fact that the country is schizophrenic and that there are few agreed-on facts about the country's status or how the country works.
Both Trump and Sanders see the establishment as corrupt enough to demand drastic measures. Many Americans agree. The establishment's main corruption is a refusal to be honest about much of what is going on, which makes deliberation and action impossible.
Sanders is an open book. We know the broad outlines of what he wants to do -- not a welfare state but rather one where everyone has a job that pays halfway decently and our current income redistribution towards the rich is brought back closer to what it used to be. Assessing his ideas and accepting or rejecting them, rather than closing our ears to them because they might involve more taxes, is what he will try to get the country to do. The honest assessment will be blocked at every turn by the fact that the country is schizophrenic and that there are few agreed-on facts about the country's status or how the country works.
Both Trump and Sanders see the establishment as corrupt enough to demand drastic measures. Many Americans agree. The establishment's main corruption is a refusal to be honest about much of what is going on, which makes deliberation and action impossible.
1
If Bernie Sanders knows how to create a society with 100% employment, where "every person has a job, that pays decently" -- then he knows some amazing magic that has eluded even the most left wing socialist states in Scandinavia or Europe or anywhere on the planet.
Those socialist paradises do not have full employment. Indeed, they have much higher rates of unemployment that does the USA.
Those socialist paradises do not have full employment. Indeed, they have much higher rates of unemployment that does the USA.
1
I agree , I agree, I agree.
As always though there is a failure to acknowledge that Bernie Sanders socialism is not the establishment of a welfare state it is a participatory democracy. We just went through an election where Justin Trudeau's vision of a participatory democracy won the day.
Nobody wants to need a handout everyone wants a hand in building our nation and participating in its future.
This is about democracy and Canada's electors voted for a government of the people and by the people. "Conservative" pine for the stability of oligarchy and plutocracy, some pine for theocracy. Bernie's people and I think Trump's people want an America where they can roll up their sleeves and get to work. The late 1970s experiment in Dauphin Manitoba that guaranteed an annual income saw an increase in productivity, better health outcomes and higher graduation rates. In Canada we call it creating a society where most people can achieve a rewarding life.
Living on the dole is the mainstay of American Whigish conservatism it is how the elite live and prosper and at the same time what they rail against.
Ross, Bernie needs you. Ross open your eyes Bernie shares your values your fellow "conservatives" mock them.
It is 2016 this is where old "socialists" meet real conservatives.
http://www.24news.ca/the-news/canada-news/137313-old-anti-poverty-idea-g...
As always though there is a failure to acknowledge that Bernie Sanders socialism is not the establishment of a welfare state it is a participatory democracy. We just went through an election where Justin Trudeau's vision of a participatory democracy won the day.
Nobody wants to need a handout everyone wants a hand in building our nation and participating in its future.
This is about democracy and Canada's electors voted for a government of the people and by the people. "Conservative" pine for the stability of oligarchy and plutocracy, some pine for theocracy. Bernie's people and I think Trump's people want an America where they can roll up their sleeves and get to work. The late 1970s experiment in Dauphin Manitoba that guaranteed an annual income saw an increase in productivity, better health outcomes and higher graduation rates. In Canada we call it creating a society where most people can achieve a rewarding life.
Living on the dole is the mainstay of American Whigish conservatism it is how the elite live and prosper and at the same time what they rail against.
Ross, Bernie needs you. Ross open your eyes Bernie shares your values your fellow "conservatives" mock them.
It is 2016 this is where old "socialists" meet real conservatives.
http://www.24news.ca/the-news/canada-news/137313-old-anti-poverty-idea-g...
4
Great column! It nails Ross's problems with American culture and politics. We're not respectful of Catholic tradition. We don't resist social progress the way that Opus Dei teaches. We embrace non-Judeo Christians. Good Lord, all that blood shed in the Crusades, and for what? So that we can welcome Sikhs and Buddhists to our shores?
We embrace miscegenation, pederasty, fornication, and atheism. Marriage between two men. Hah! It's a short leap to marriage between a priest and an altar boy. Sodom and Gomorrah had nothing on NYC. They probably didn't even march for alternate sexual orientations.
None of this is relevant to Bernie Sanders. Very little of it is relevant to Donald Trump. But change is hard, and changing times bring out the reactionary in all of us. That makes Ross a natural for our age. Pity he became impressed with book-learning at Harvard. Otherwise he would be also be a natural for Donald.
We embrace miscegenation, pederasty, fornication, and atheism. Marriage between two men. Hah! It's a short leap to marriage between a priest and an altar boy. Sodom and Gomorrah had nothing on NYC. They probably didn't even march for alternate sexual orientations.
None of this is relevant to Bernie Sanders. Very little of it is relevant to Donald Trump. But change is hard, and changing times bring out the reactionary in all of us. That makes Ross a natural for our age. Pity he became impressed with book-learning at Harvard. Otherwise he would be also be a natural for Donald.
4
By this juncture. it is become obvious to me, the last groups of folks who know anything about how discouraged people are is, for starters, the liberal press, followed by TV media, and of course, our form of insider politics, that stinks of rot. Hello, how bizarre is it to be chosing between the Clinton duo, the worn out Bush legacy, and Doanld Trump. All while Obama preaches we are safe and America is arming itself. Americans want to have a chance if they are individually attacked, as they expect to be any day.
2
Enough, I'm a Clinton supporter, but please stop comparing Trump and Sanders. Ross, as a NYTimes columnist I know(assume?) your smarter than this, but reading this article I realize that you don't have that opinion of us. Senator Sanders is a senator in the US senate, elected repeatedly from a state in this country. Who or what is Trump? You may not agree with any of his prescriptions for our country, but at least he has some. Trump while a member of your side has no, none, zero, solutions, there is No comparison. I still assume you have a better argument than this column suggests, try try try again.
6
The only requirement to run for President in the USA is to be A. a natural born citizen and B. over 35 years of age. That's it.
There is no requirement that you serve in Congress or as a governor -- none. We've had plenty of lousy Presidents who were two-term governors of huge states. It is no guarantee of quality, unfortunately.
If Mr. Trump is elected, it will be because people voted for him. If they do not vote for him, or in insufficient numbers, he will lose and simply be an odd footnote to history.
There is no requirement that you serve in Congress or as a governor -- none. We've had plenty of lousy Presidents who were two-term governors of huge states. It is no guarantee of quality, unfortunately.
If Mr. Trump is elected, it will be because people voted for him. If they do not vote for him, or in insufficient numbers, he will lose and simply be an odd footnote to history.
1
@Concerned
If Trump is elected God help us all.
If Trump is not elected there will be another one even worse in the next election.
If Trump is elected God help us all.
If Trump is not elected there will be another one even worse in the next election.
1
Ross Douthat, you have undergone a total metamorphosis. Your 2nd, 3rd paragraphs, in fact, the entire op-ed seems like an ode to Obama. These were the very Obama's hard won accomplishments you derided, said were untrue. Even out-of-wedlock births have reduced negating all your supercilious sanctimony in almost all your earlier columns. But you are dead right about the Trumpistas and Bern-feelers. Basically there is anger, disgust with the status quo. But the trap people are falling into is extreme and very, very dangerous. I'm afraid, people have gone beyond insanity and logic.
5
Mr. Douthat's essay leaves one with the uneasy feeling that what he has NOT said is far more important than what he has said. And, arguably, what is unsaid explains Mr. Sanders and Mr. Trump better than his analysis does.
In his head-shaking bewilderment about why people are so dissatisfied with the 'could be worse' status quo, Mr. Douthat is silent about some very significant facts. A few:
1) the obscene increase in inequality in the last 35 years, beginning under Ronald Regan and accelerating since 2008; 2) the fact that real wages for blue collar and white collar workers have stagnated or declined and in no way kept up with productivity increases; 3) the country lost millions of jobs, Americans lost millions of homes beginning with the financial collapse of 2008 and we have not regained those jobs; 4) the principal perpetrators of the financial collapse have gone free and their industries continue to fight vigorously any efforts to prevent them for doing the same things in the future--a testimony to lawlessness among the powerful--unpunished; 5) the abuse of our young people by banks and universities, saddling them with debt it will take a lifetime to repay
These--and many similar indices-- are true indicators of the depth and depravity in our financial and political systems today, and explain voter discontent better than those Mr. Douthat ennumerated
I think these indicate the true depth of decadence in the body politic and explain better the dissatisfaction of the
In his head-shaking bewilderment about why people are so dissatisfied with the 'could be worse' status quo, Mr. Douthat is silent about some very significant facts. A few:
1) the obscene increase in inequality in the last 35 years, beginning under Ronald Regan and accelerating since 2008; 2) the fact that real wages for blue collar and white collar workers have stagnated or declined and in no way kept up with productivity increases; 3) the country lost millions of jobs, Americans lost millions of homes beginning with the financial collapse of 2008 and we have not regained those jobs; 4) the principal perpetrators of the financial collapse have gone free and their industries continue to fight vigorously any efforts to prevent them for doing the same things in the future--a testimony to lawlessness among the powerful--unpunished; 5) the abuse of our young people by banks and universities, saddling them with debt it will take a lifetime to repay
These--and many similar indices-- are true indicators of the depth and depravity in our financial and political systems today, and explain voter discontent better than those Mr. Douthat ennumerated
I think these indicate the true depth of decadence in the body politic and explain better the dissatisfaction of the
12
Conflating the enthusiasm for Bernie Sanders with Trumpism? Absurd! The fact is the majority of Americans want their government to do those things that will serve the public good. Good infrastructure, good education, a judicial system that is fair, affordable health care, and the ability to deal with the rest of the world on the diplomatic stage as a mature, rational nation, to name but a few things the government can provide. Bernie appeals because he really is talking about the "audacity of hope". No other politician is; the GOP is selling hate and fear as usual and Hilary is selling the status quo. They are all perfectly fine with selling us out in favor of their corporate overlords. Bernie is not. Period.
12
I guess I'm supposed to issue the usual pro-forma castigation of poor Ross for his lack of awareness of the economic disparities and the generally stacked deck we have today, but the point he makes here is not so easy to reject in its entirety. Things can get better and we pray will, goodness knows, but they can just easily get far, far worse. As you get older, you recognize that things very often do get worse and so you make peace with the less than perfect. Is that a sclerotic view or is it just one of the lessons life teaches?
4
Viet Nam draft dodger Trump is preaching pie in the sky.
Deporting 12M people, making Mexico pay for a wall, a 45% import duty on Chinese products, turning the clock back fifty years.
Bernie Sanders is talking realistically, putting banksta's in jail, ending our near perpetual war in the Middle East, taxing the rich and corporations who now pay pennies stopping inversions, regulating Wall Street instead of Wall Street regulating our government.
Deporting 12M people, making Mexico pay for a wall, a 45% import duty on Chinese products, turning the clock back fifty years.
Bernie Sanders is talking realistically, putting banksta's in jail, ending our near perpetual war in the Middle East, taxing the rich and corporations who now pay pennies stopping inversions, regulating Wall Street instead of Wall Street regulating our government.
17
Douthat writes of "people having fewer children" as if it's a bad thing. It isn't. Forcing people to have child after child they don't want and can't afford is. Contrary to what what Catholicism teaches, use of birth control isn't a sign of decadence, Ross. It's a sign of civilization and intelligence. It's a sign of common sense.
29
In summary, another NYT op-ed supporting the status quo, incrementalism, and the establishment.
Decadence, indeed! Speaking as one of the commoners, I see it as a desperate fight to the death between the haves and the havenots.
Decadence, indeed! Speaking as one of the commoners, I see it as a desperate fight to the death between the haves and the havenots.
6
Yes, inflation is low and unemployment is officially below 5%.
But 66% of Americans, according to the NYT/CBS poll, think we are on the wrong track.
Voters, particularly young voters, may be employed and may have no inflation worries, but they can't get a raise, they can't pay off their student loans and they can't afford to move out of their parents' basement.
If, as reported, Hillary plans to run as "Obama's Third Term," she may have a long slog in the fall.
But 66% of Americans, according to the NYT/CBS poll, think we are on the wrong track.
Voters, particularly young voters, may be employed and may have no inflation worries, but they can't get a raise, they can't pay off their student loans and they can't afford to move out of their parents' basement.
If, as reported, Hillary plans to run as "Obama's Third Term," she may have a long slog in the fall.
1
So Mr. Douthat is telling us that we reject responsible logical,prudent leadership that has brought us out of two miserable, ill planned wars, and bone a crushing "recession," and provided us leadership in global diplomacy by referring to this as a period of decadence! Please, Lord, provide me with eight more years of decadence.
11
You say "decadence", I say "inequality"
This is a revolt against the establishment on both sides. That means the people with the pitchforks are coming after the likes of you Mr. Douthat but only through the vote box.
As part of the establishment you have a vested interest in more of the same. That is not sustainable.
There is good news though: you will probably get to keep both your head and your comfort if we make the changes necessary NOW.
In truth we are at the end of Supply-Side era that the Reagan Revolution brought us. Supply-side is no longer efficacious. We hit that limit 17 years ago that is why 2008 happened.
That revolution was a bad idea, as the present surely indicates. In Supply Side economics a rising tied only lifts the rich but threatens everyone else.
So it is time to switch back to a Demand-side Era. That means switching back to the New Deal era that FDRs revolution gave us.
That is what Bernie Sanders stands for: the Good news is there a rising tide lifts all boats, even yours.
Trump by channeling anger at minorities is really a diversion. If he gets elected and pursue supply side economics as Bush did, we will get the exact same results.
Ending inequality is a morality issue. I think that it will prevail this very year. Monday will be a big tell.
You should be rooting for Sanders. If he wins you will get to keep your head and your comfort. Another 2008 collapse and all bets are off across the board with chaos waiting in the wings.
This is a revolt against the establishment on both sides. That means the people with the pitchforks are coming after the likes of you Mr. Douthat but only through the vote box.
As part of the establishment you have a vested interest in more of the same. That is not sustainable.
There is good news though: you will probably get to keep both your head and your comfort if we make the changes necessary NOW.
In truth we are at the end of Supply-Side era that the Reagan Revolution brought us. Supply-side is no longer efficacious. We hit that limit 17 years ago that is why 2008 happened.
That revolution was a bad idea, as the present surely indicates. In Supply Side economics a rising tied only lifts the rich but threatens everyone else.
So it is time to switch back to a Demand-side Era. That means switching back to the New Deal era that FDRs revolution gave us.
That is what Bernie Sanders stands for: the Good news is there a rising tide lifts all boats, even yours.
Trump by channeling anger at minorities is really a diversion. If he gets elected and pursue supply side economics as Bush did, we will get the exact same results.
Ending inequality is a morality issue. I think that it will prevail this very year. Monday will be a big tell.
You should be rooting for Sanders. If he wins you will get to keep your head and your comfort. Another 2008 collapse and all bets are off across the board with chaos waiting in the wings.
13
Donald Trump will ALSO be a "septuagenarian" by Election Day... and whether he's truly a billionaire has yet to be proven (when is he releasing his tax returns, again?)
Please find another way, other than age, to contrast these candidates...
Whether they're honest, perhaps,
or qualified,
or SANE.
Please find another way, other than age, to contrast these candidates...
Whether they're honest, perhaps,
or qualified,
or SANE.
13
Ross, I don't blame you for your cluelessness, because it's shared by virtually every member of our political and media elite.
But the simple fact of the matter is that you have no idea what the typical American worker is thinking and feeling.
And that, basically, is that I'm being worked to death, my job is insecure, and I'm making less than I used to.
The good jobs have all been exported to low-wage countries like China.
Or they've been taken by immigrants from low wage countries like Mexico and India.
Washington politicians are in the pay of Wall Street billionaires and no longer represent my interests.
My friend had to train my H1-B replacement and sign a non-disclosure agreement as a condition of receiving severance pay.
My wife lost her job at the textile plant when the factory moved to China.
My kids are saddled with crushing college debt and can only get a job as a receptionist, or an unpaid intern.
Neither party cares about me. The Democrats care about gay marriage and women's rights and health care, and I guess those are good things, but they don't care about workers like me. The Republicans care about small government and tax cuts and gun rights, and I guess those are good things, but they don't care about workers like me.
That's it, Ross. It's as simple as that. Only you and your compatriots sit in your comfortable Manhattan offices earning six-figure incomes, but don't have a clue what people are thinking or experiencing.
But the simple fact of the matter is that you have no idea what the typical American worker is thinking and feeling.
And that, basically, is that I'm being worked to death, my job is insecure, and I'm making less than I used to.
The good jobs have all been exported to low-wage countries like China.
Or they've been taken by immigrants from low wage countries like Mexico and India.
Washington politicians are in the pay of Wall Street billionaires and no longer represent my interests.
My friend had to train my H1-B replacement and sign a non-disclosure agreement as a condition of receiving severance pay.
My wife lost her job at the textile plant when the factory moved to China.
My kids are saddled with crushing college debt and can only get a job as a receptionist, or an unpaid intern.
Neither party cares about me. The Democrats care about gay marriage and women's rights and health care, and I guess those are good things, but they don't care about workers like me. The Republicans care about small government and tax cuts and gun rights, and I guess those are good things, but they don't care about workers like me.
That's it, Ross. It's as simple as that. Only you and your compatriots sit in your comfortable Manhattan offices earning six-figure incomes, but don't have a clue what people are thinking or experiencing.
279
So are you smart enough to be interested in a real solution or would you rather just experience some sort of vicarious gratification by listening to a clueless buffoon insult people? Yes the jobs have left and they are not coming back because there is a super abundance of cheap labor available in other parts of the world. What we need is good jobs that can't be sent overseas. How do we do that? We need to rebuild and upgrade our infrastructure, improve our public schools, invest again in basic research, and a whole bunch of other infrastructure things; and to pay for it we need to raise taxes on the people who have benefitted most by sending those jobs overseas. But no, the Republican Congress wants to cut, cut, cut, until we all end up living in a third world country. And sadly the blue collar worker who lost his job doesn't get it; so he gets his "feel good" by listening to a bozo insult people and keeps retuning the brain dead Representatives to Congress.
69
A billionaire doesn't even know you're alive.
Vote for someone who DOES.
And PS. Democrats care about rights, period. Worker rights, civil rights, gay rights, voting rights... they're all part of the promise implicit in "We the People."
I live in Manhattan, btw. I don't make six figures, and never will.
Vote for someone who DOES.
And PS. Democrats care about rights, period. Worker rights, civil rights, gay rights, voting rights... they're all part of the promise implicit in "We the People."
I live in Manhattan, btw. I don't make six figures, and never will.
17
I'm waiting for the day software jobs all go overseas. That'll be hilarious... Well I'm learning Chinese and ready for Hong Kong anytime. It could be exciting!
"The deficit has fallen a bit,"....You accidently put your finger on one of the problems. Voters have been listening to Fox News for so long they no longer know difference between fact and fiction. "The deficit has fallen a bit" ???? When Obama took office the budget deficit was $1350 billion dollars. This year it was under $500 billion dollars. Can you name a 7 year span in the country's history when the deficit has fallen anywhere near that much? And just think where we would be today if the brain dead Congress would have agreed with the administration and raised the taxes a little bit on incomes over $250,000. I mean hello; if you are really interested in reducing the deficit there are TWO ways (count them, TWO ways). One is to reduce spending and the other is to raise revenue. And you can blah, blah, blah, till your blue in the face, but if you don't consider both of those TWO ways the truth is, you are not really interested in reducing the deficit.
118
In your haste to insult Republicans and all viewers of Fox News (I am not one of those people, by the way), you conveniently forgot to mention that budget deficits are only one part of the conversation, and that this administration has added more debt to the national ledger than any other in history. Politifact has indicated that the federal debt is set to rise by approximately $8.6 trillion over the next ten years, even though year to year deficits are shrinking (although even that number is misleading; federal outlays rose to an all time high in 2009 under the first full year of the Obama administration, eventually reaching a $1.41 trillion single year deficit, which has been gradually decreasing over the last 7 years). It's valuable to have conversation about the nature of the debt, why it exists, how much it matters, and who is at fault, but I would suggest slowing down on your lecturing and focus on the complexities of the situation. Many people are at fault; this country has had a spending problem since the Vietnam war.
No, Mr. Douthat is not interested in dealing with reality. He's of the school that if people would just act "better" - complete high school, no sex, smoking, drinking, fun, etc. - go to church, marry (man-woman only), produce a couple of kids, worship at a church that tells them they are bad people, then they would be rewarded with a slightly above minimum wage job by those magical billionaires. Otherwise they should just die and be done with it.
5
"this administration has added more debt to the national ledger than any other in history."....Wake up call. That is true but totally misleading. Of course this administration added more debt then any other in history; precisely because they were handed a budget deficit that was higher than any other in history. And how do you address the problem of increasing debt???? You lower the deficit, which is exactly what this administration has done. How about a little credit here for doing the right thing? And not single word about the need to raise revenue?
2
The thing about decadence is that there ARE things worse than decadence, but if decadence is not dealt with dynamically, those things will inevitably occur down the road!
I have occasional suggested in NY Times comments that the Romans were lucky that their first post-republican ruler was the Emperor Augustus, a wise and moderate reformer. We might be very lucky if we get an Augustus in 30 or 40 years' time.
I have occasional suggested in NY Times comments that the Romans were lucky that their first post-republican ruler was the Emperor Augustus, a wise and moderate reformer. We might be very lucky if we get an Augustus in 30 or 40 years' time.
5
I often read columns that I might disagree with because I hope I will learn something. But I was so outraged by Mr. Douthat's falsely equivalent examples of "dangerous sensibility" -- where he treats the invasion of Iraq and Hitler's foreign policy as equivalent to people in a democratic society choosing to vote for Trump or for Sanders rather than the other candidates their political party has presented to them -- that I may give his column a miss next time it appears.
44
"Open Germany's borders" is a reference to current immigration policy, not to "Hitler's foreign policy."
To lump Sen. Sanders in with The Donald represents the summit of lunacy. The senator has been working to provide Americans with a better future and an end to the notion that the achievement of success in this country requires being born to it in the very way that Mr. Trump was (i.e., borrowing his first million from his father from whom he also inherited the business he now runs). The Donald, on the other hand, is running for the highest office in the land only because the position of God has already been filled. He offers no plan to address income inequality other than the nonsensical one of forcing Mexico to pay for a wall that would keep its citizens (and those from Central America) from taking jobs that few Americans even want. "Make America Great Again" isn't a detailed plan- it's barely even a mantra. And it would never have brought this man the wealth or celebrity status he enjoys today. To those who've worked hard and made it on their own, this man is an insult. To those who've managed the first but not the second, he's hardly the leader we need to show us the way.
139
"why now? Yes, voters are angry, yes, they’re exhausted and disgusted and cynical about everything. But why is everything boiling over in this particular cycle, in this presidential campaign?"
Because last time they turned away from the Establishment to elect a black guy with the middle name Hussein raised partly in a Muslim country whose father was a black agitator in Kenya, who promised "change we could believe in."
And we got THIS, very nearly more of the same, even so far as his chief rival running and bungling foreign policy in the ways we'd just rejected.
So this time we are going to get change.
That isn't the non-change of Hillary that we rejected last time. It isn't the non-change of the guys who lost to Mitt last time. It isn't Bush's brother with all the same advisers.
We are going for Trump and Sanders. Clean the temple.
You ought to know that if THIS does not work, then NEXT time you're really going to see something. "I'm as mad as hell, and I'm not going to take this anymore!" -- Network, 1976.
Because last time they turned away from the Establishment to elect a black guy with the middle name Hussein raised partly in a Muslim country whose father was a black agitator in Kenya, who promised "change we could believe in."
And we got THIS, very nearly more of the same, even so far as his chief rival running and bungling foreign policy in the ways we'd just rejected.
So this time we are going to get change.
That isn't the non-change of Hillary that we rejected last time. It isn't the non-change of the guys who lost to Mitt last time. It isn't Bush's brother with all the same advisers.
We are going for Trump and Sanders. Clean the temple.
You ought to know that if THIS does not work, then NEXT time you're really going to see something. "I'm as mad as hell, and I'm not going to take this anymore!" -- Network, 1976.
67
What "change" are you expecting? Trump is an old friend of the Clintons and was a prominent Democrat until a few years ago (although to be fair, he was a Republican before that- he leaned on Lee Atwater to try and get on the GOP presidential ticket as Bush's VP in 1988). He just appreciates adoration and therefore will say whatever it takes to keep himself in the news.
Sanders, at least, at least speaks from the heart. But his appeal lies in the novelty and absurdity of his candidacy for president. Although he has a lot of wonderful things to say about inequality, they are fantasies- they would require substantive action from the Congress, and we can see how much luck this president has had on that front. He has an open distaste for foreign policy and international affairs, which the Constitution lists as the primary responsibility of the president.
Neither one of these men will become president of course, but the current national mood doesn't bode well- the hazy desire for "hope and change" in 2008 is what has led to all of this disillusionment in the first place. How does "make America great again" seem any better?
Sanders, at least, at least speaks from the heart. But his appeal lies in the novelty and absurdity of his candidacy for president. Although he has a lot of wonderful things to say about inequality, they are fantasies- they would require substantive action from the Congress, and we can see how much luck this president has had on that front. He has an open distaste for foreign policy and international affairs, which the Constitution lists as the primary responsibility of the president.
Neither one of these men will become president of course, but the current national mood doesn't bode well- the hazy desire for "hope and change" in 2008 is what has led to all of this disillusionment in the first place. How does "make America great again" seem any better?
1
The average voter thinks the country is going in the wrong direction. But that scarcely tells the story.
Obama has an 87% approval rating among demoncrats -- but democrats think the GOP "Just Say No Caucus"is trying to send us into the ditch. By contrast, the GOP base thinks their party is the enemy ... and they are angry because those they have elected haven't put the country further into the dumper.
Obama has an 87% approval rating among demoncrats -- but democrats think the GOP "Just Say No Caucus"is trying to send us into the ditch. By contrast, the GOP base thinks their party is the enemy ... and they are angry because those they have elected haven't put the country further into the dumper.
2
Unfortunately, one person, even a President can't change much. There has to be a cleaning of the House and Senate........fat chance!
The ' decadence ' has been brought on since the days after WWII that Douthat eulogizes because St. Ray-gun declared " government IS the problem " - since government in this country is the people, every time GOP'ers whittled/chiseled away at tax revenues, they were whittling/chiseling away at the American people, with corporations and 1%-ers at the forefront trying to starve government of ' investment ' funds for the country's long-term future by decrying ' spending '.
But corporations don't pay taxes; they merely raise their prices if needed to pay those higher taxes, then pass on the extra revenues collected when they submit their IRS forms.
Oddly, corporations are not known to lower prices of their products when taxes go down.
Anyhew, Douthat misses the point that chaos/bedlam is exactly what is desired by those who pretend that cutting government ' spending ' is anything less than cutting government ' investment ' in the country's future, as GOP'ers try to fulfill Grover Norquist's heartfelt desire to make government small enough to drown in the bath tub.
Corporations' and the 1%-ers' war on government has been cast as a war to cut their taxes - but corporations, partnerships, small businesses are merely conduits that pass through the cost of those taxes which are priced into their goods.
Gullible Americans took the bait.
No matter whom GOP'ers pick to face voters in the fall, they are still the party that promotes disinvesting in America, Americans, and our future.
But corporations don't pay taxes; they merely raise their prices if needed to pay those higher taxes, then pass on the extra revenues collected when they submit their IRS forms.
Oddly, corporations are not known to lower prices of their products when taxes go down.
Anyhew, Douthat misses the point that chaos/bedlam is exactly what is desired by those who pretend that cutting government ' spending ' is anything less than cutting government ' investment ' in the country's future, as GOP'ers try to fulfill Grover Norquist's heartfelt desire to make government small enough to drown in the bath tub.
Corporations' and the 1%-ers' war on government has been cast as a war to cut their taxes - but corporations, partnerships, small businesses are merely conduits that pass through the cost of those taxes which are priced into their goods.
Gullible Americans took the bait.
No matter whom GOP'ers pick to face voters in the fall, they are still the party that promotes disinvesting in America, Americans, and our future.
97
Ordinary Americans are angry because "the system" is no longer working for them. In their perception, the legal system, the financial system and government are dominated by a small cabal of wealthy, self-centered elites who simply don't care about the middle class, or especially, the poor.
Social liberals have a much easier time turning to Senator Sanders, a social democrat than social conservatives. That Donald Trump can parade as an "outsider" shows desperation with a party (GOP) that is funded and ruled by oligarches such as the Koch brothers, Sheldon Adelson and the others. Those voters were betrayed by a party that promised social reform, but instead, simply sold the conservative working person down the river. Now, they're waking up.
Yeah. People are angry.
Social liberals have a much easier time turning to Senator Sanders, a social democrat than social conservatives. That Donald Trump can parade as an "outsider" shows desperation with a party (GOP) that is funded and ruled by oligarches such as the Koch brothers, Sheldon Adelson and the others. Those voters were betrayed by a party that promised social reform, but instead, simply sold the conservative working person down the river. Now, they're waking up.
Yeah. People are angry.
110
Father Douhat....your very column is attributable to the fact that the NYT still subscribes to the Fairness Doctrine - that a liberal view ought to be balanced with a conservative one - even though your St. Reagan obliterated the Fairness Doctrine so the right-wing could get away with lying, stealing, cheating and deceiving humanity for a living by ushering in a golden era of false equivalencies and propaganda that today's column excels in.
Trumpolini is winning on Mexicans, Muslims and marketing to a sea of Archie Bunkers.
Trump has one public policy: "Elect Me - I'm Terrific...and let me tell you exactly how terrific I am."
It's funny, of course, but after that, it's just stupid....and with all due respect, 'stupid' has always had a high degree of appeal to Americans, particularly within the Party of Stupid.
But in a country of 320 million, you actually need real public policy to protect the economy, the environment, the infrastructure, civil rights and the general common good from vultures, sociopaths, war-hawks, religious nuts and misanthropes.
Bernie Sanders thinks Wall St. regulates Congress and says it should be the other way around...like most Americans think.
The Greed Over People Party and their front-running billionaire Trumpolini think Wall St. regulates Congress and think "okay, what's the problem ?"
Donald Trump has as much to do with Bernie Sanders as compassion has to with conservatism.....nothing.
False equivalence is a right-winger's finest friend.
Trumpolini is winning on Mexicans, Muslims and marketing to a sea of Archie Bunkers.
Trump has one public policy: "Elect Me - I'm Terrific...and let me tell you exactly how terrific I am."
It's funny, of course, but after that, it's just stupid....and with all due respect, 'stupid' has always had a high degree of appeal to Americans, particularly within the Party of Stupid.
But in a country of 320 million, you actually need real public policy to protect the economy, the environment, the infrastructure, civil rights and the general common good from vultures, sociopaths, war-hawks, religious nuts and misanthropes.
Bernie Sanders thinks Wall St. regulates Congress and says it should be the other way around...like most Americans think.
The Greed Over People Party and their front-running billionaire Trumpolini think Wall St. regulates Congress and think "okay, what's the problem ?"
Donald Trump has as much to do with Bernie Sanders as compassion has to with conservatism.....nothing.
False equivalence is a right-winger's finest friend.
643
....we have most of the fools on are side, and that is a big enough majority in most towns.
- Mark Twain, Advernture of Huckleberry Finn paraphrased from memory.
- Mark Twain, Advernture of Huckleberry Finn paraphrased from memory.
3
@Socrates
"...lying, stealing, cheating, and deceiving..."
As my middle schooler would say: ROTFL.
That's "rolling on the floor laughing" for the rest of us.
It is telling when so many readers "recommend" these comments. And I thought the Right held onto conspiracy theories with their Talk Radio...
Truly funny.
"...lying, stealing, cheating, and deceiving..."
As my middle schooler would say: ROTFL.
That's "rolling on the floor laughing" for the rest of us.
It is telling when so many readers "recommend" these comments. And I thought the Right held onto conspiracy theories with their Talk Radio...
Truly funny.
2
Good point Why now, instead of 2012?
It's not that things are worse. It's an accident. It's that Trump and Sanders happened onto the scene.
The Republicans are more disorganized than in 2012. And no Democrat was going to challenge Obama in 2012.
It's not that things are worse. It's an accident. It's that Trump and Sanders happened onto the scene.
The Republicans are more disorganized than in 2012. And no Democrat was going to challenge Obama in 2012.
12
So climate change is "decadence"?
Does that make a hatful of sense?
Sanders decries
While Trump denies,
And Douthat is straddling the fence!
Does that make a hatful of sense?
Sanders decries
While Trump denies,
And Douthat is straddling the fence!
69
"— involve essentially recycled visions of the future is a sign of how hard it is for a decadent society to escape the trap of repetition. "
What you're trying to say is that those who cannot remember the past are bound to repeat it. Trump supporters remember history only as long as it didn't take place before World War I. In their mind the United States is the only world power that has ever been in existence, all due to god and white people.
Bernie Sanders people have a much better grasp on that history and realize just exactly who it is that will doom us to repeat hisotry. Or as you state - fail to "escape the trap of repition." George Santayana you're not.
You may not like it but at least Bernie Sanders is objectively identifying the problems. Trump simply rouses the resentment of those who cannot seyond their own history.
What you're trying to say is that those who cannot remember the past are bound to repeat it. Trump supporters remember history only as long as it didn't take place before World War I. In their mind the United States is the only world power that has ever been in existence, all due to god and white people.
Bernie Sanders people have a much better grasp on that history and realize just exactly who it is that will doom us to repeat hisotry. Or as you state - fail to "escape the trap of repition." George Santayana you're not.
You may not like it but at least Bernie Sanders is objectively identifying the problems. Trump simply rouses the resentment of those who cannot seyond their own history.
57
"decadence: moral or cultural decline as characterized by excessive indulgence in pleasure or luxury."
Ross, I'm perplexed by your use of the word decadence. By your description, it should be 'stagnation," not decadence. The roaring 20s were decadent. the fin de siècle was decadent. Rome in decline, with everybody gluttonizing and too fat to fight was decadent.
But 2016 America? The land where 20-30 families control all of the wealth, where the middle class is evaporating faster than a snowflake in July, where people are discouraged, maladjusted, addicted, depressed, and dysfunctional?
You yourself point out that things are fair to middling--not great but adequate--which is far from decadence. And maybe the reason why so many are so angry on both sides of the aisle is that not just that the future looks even grimmer but that the past seem so rosy.
Except it isn't and it wasn't. Just recently the Times ran an article pointing out that the glory days of 50s economic boom was an outlier--a post-war time never to be replicated again. But because so many feel cheated--kids who hear their parents talk about this golden age, and boomers whose expectations were squashed by corporate takeovers in the 89s--people are angry.
One group wants to recreate the 50s, the other wants it back. Problem is, the conditions that created the 50s no longer exists.
Ross, I'm perplexed by your use of the word decadence. By your description, it should be 'stagnation," not decadence. The roaring 20s were decadent. the fin de siècle was decadent. Rome in decline, with everybody gluttonizing and too fat to fight was decadent.
But 2016 America? The land where 20-30 families control all of the wealth, where the middle class is evaporating faster than a snowflake in July, where people are discouraged, maladjusted, addicted, depressed, and dysfunctional?
You yourself point out that things are fair to middling--not great but adequate--which is far from decadence. And maybe the reason why so many are so angry on both sides of the aisle is that not just that the future looks even grimmer but that the past seem so rosy.
Except it isn't and it wasn't. Just recently the Times ran an article pointing out that the glory days of 50s economic boom was an outlier--a post-war time never to be replicated again. But because so many feel cheated--kids who hear their parents talk about this golden age, and boomers whose expectations were squashed by corporate takeovers in the 89s--people are angry.
One group wants to recreate the 50s, the other wants it back. Problem is, the conditions that created the 50s no longer exists.
130
Great analysis, Christine, thank you. From Ross's description, I kept picturing Nero, but I don't see a lot of Neros across the broad swath of the American population.
yeah, I was wondering where the word decadence came in. Kept waiting for a story of cats and dogs bedding down together. Think he doesn't know what the word means.
America, the US, is bumping up against the limits most other countries have had to learn to live with for a long time - our resources, both natural and human, which in the past seemed limitless and lead to our hubris of "exceptionalism", are reaching their limit, we are no longer the "best" and "greatest", instead by most measures that count, we are middling and often at the tail end.
This is frustrating and difficult for Americans to deal with. In response, both extremes of the political spectrum are responding to simplistic "solutions" in expressing their frustration. Trump appeals to the ignorance and fear of those left behind with slogans like "Make America Great Again", while Sanders appeals to the equally simplistic notion that all our ills are the fault of the 0.1% and their greed.
Trump is an opportunist in using these fears.
But Sanders, too, is being disingenuous by claiming everything can be solved by simply breaking up the banks and taxing the super-rich. Sanders' notion of "Socialism" is stuck in the 50's and 60's of Europe. Today's Social Democracies of Europe are much more defined "social market economy", where corporations are held responsible not only to their share-holders, but also to their employees and to society at large.
"Corporations are people, too", and thus they have a responsibility not just to maximize profits, but to be "good citizens" and show concern for their employees and society at large.
This is frustrating and difficult for Americans to deal with. In response, both extremes of the political spectrum are responding to simplistic "solutions" in expressing their frustration. Trump appeals to the ignorance and fear of those left behind with slogans like "Make America Great Again", while Sanders appeals to the equally simplistic notion that all our ills are the fault of the 0.1% and their greed.
Trump is an opportunist in using these fears.
But Sanders, too, is being disingenuous by claiming everything can be solved by simply breaking up the banks and taxing the super-rich. Sanders' notion of "Socialism" is stuck in the 50's and 60's of Europe. Today's Social Democracies of Europe are much more defined "social market economy", where corporations are held responsible not only to their share-holders, but also to their employees and to society at large.
"Corporations are people, too", and thus they have a responsibility not just to maximize profits, but to be "good citizens" and show concern for their employees and society at large.
31
Show us where and when Sanders claimed everything can be solved by simply breaking up the banks and taxing the super-rich. Or that all our ills are the fault of the 0.1% and their greed. More specious rhetoric from the Clinton camp.
5
That's what Sanders is saying. I've only heard a few minutes of his clips and he makes it very clear - he's saying everyone should benefit from the way government works, not just a few elite.
I really don't think that is all Bernie says. Maybe it is what you want to hear him saying.
1
Douthat would think electing Sanders is the embodiment of decadence, the outcome of our era. He asks, "what are Bern-feelers rebelling against?"..really? We are fighting for our democracy, and rebelling against being governed by a few hundred wealthy elite. We also don't like corporations running our government. We'd like to have them pay their fair share of taxes and to quit blaming the "little" people for the country's woes. We'd like to not fight endless wars and live in a world that is controlled by science deniers..even voting on science as if science could be voted on…ridiculous. We'd like the banksters to go to jail, big banks broken up, and to end Citizen's United. We'd like Wall Street to quit running our fed and our country. We'd like social justice. No more corporate prisons. We'd like our children to have a clean and safe world with up to date modern transportation, communications systems, free public universities, and clean renewable energy. Got that Douthat?
318
How laughable that now, Mr. Douthat, you of the chicken little party, aka the Republican party, aka "the sky is falling" party, now you wonder why people are so upset.
Perhaps it's because we, the 99%, have finally figured out that we've been lied to and robbed.
But, here's the rub. It's not just under Reagan that the middle class was torn asunder, it's not just under Poppy Bush, or Bill Clinton (he of the 1% who is now worth along with his wife $138 million in 15 years - not a bad return on your investment Bill, Hillary), not just under W Bush or under Obama (and I'm sure he will quickly join the 1% when he leaves office), it's due to ALL their policies. From NAFTA to repealing Glass Steagall, to bailing out banks to fining banks billions for their crimes but not sending one banker to jail, to changing tax law so the very rich only have to pay 13% (looking at you Romney you moocher), to stealing elections (Jeb!) to lowering taxes on the wealthiest again and again, to selling out to Big Pharma and Big Insurance, to invading countries that had nothing to do with 9/11 (at a cost of $2 Trillion at least), to gaming our universities so that graduates start off as indentured servants with decades of debt before they even start to work, to lending banks money at less than 1% and then the banks turning around and charging usurious fees, to outrageous mortgage crimes against consumers.
We are mad and we don't want the same old people serving up the same old garbage.
Go Bernie!
Perhaps it's because we, the 99%, have finally figured out that we've been lied to and robbed.
But, here's the rub. It's not just under Reagan that the middle class was torn asunder, it's not just under Poppy Bush, or Bill Clinton (he of the 1% who is now worth along with his wife $138 million in 15 years - not a bad return on your investment Bill, Hillary), not just under W Bush or under Obama (and I'm sure he will quickly join the 1% when he leaves office), it's due to ALL their policies. From NAFTA to repealing Glass Steagall, to bailing out banks to fining banks billions for their crimes but not sending one banker to jail, to changing tax law so the very rich only have to pay 13% (looking at you Romney you moocher), to stealing elections (Jeb!) to lowering taxes on the wealthiest again and again, to selling out to Big Pharma and Big Insurance, to invading countries that had nothing to do with 9/11 (at a cost of $2 Trillion at least), to gaming our universities so that graduates start off as indentured servants with decades of debt before they even start to work, to lending banks money at less than 1% and then the banks turning around and charging usurious fees, to outrageous mortgage crimes against consumers.
We are mad and we don't want the same old people serving up the same old garbage.
Go Bernie!
359
I wish I could recommend this statement twice.
This should be part of Bernie's stump speech - word for word.
This should be part of Bernie's stump speech - word for word.
@V
When you see the barbarians overrun the gates, look closely and you will see their "community organizer" standing in the front atop the rubble with a megaphone.
The most free and consequential nation on Earth has staked its claim on a man who will deliver us to...Scandinavia. When you look at it clearly, you need to wonder why Obama is not throwing all of his weight behind Bernie. No, he is "staying above the politics", he the most divisive and class-baiting leader to occupy the White House.
Bernie is the son of Obama. And Trump is the father to all the terrified Whites who are watching the ground shift under their feet. I do not understand, therefore, why Bernie is being given the finger by both the NYTimes and Obama.
Bernie is Obama if Obama could complete a sentence without pivoting to race, class, and gender baiting. So when Douthat says that these two men are the same horses of a different color he is right. When you terrify a country long enough, the parlor crowd must look on horrified at what was wrought. And what was wrought are these two different manifestations of the drift of the past eight years.
It wasn't just the Republicans. And it wasn't just the Democrats. It was a collective decision to lead through demonization, both the POTUS and Congress. Both sides played the game with abandon. And now we are going to pay the piper.
Trashing a nation is an equal opportunity endeavor.
Thank you, Ross, for having the courage to call it out.
When you see the barbarians overrun the gates, look closely and you will see their "community organizer" standing in the front atop the rubble with a megaphone.
The most free and consequential nation on Earth has staked its claim on a man who will deliver us to...Scandinavia. When you look at it clearly, you need to wonder why Obama is not throwing all of his weight behind Bernie. No, he is "staying above the politics", he the most divisive and class-baiting leader to occupy the White House.
Bernie is the son of Obama. And Trump is the father to all the terrified Whites who are watching the ground shift under their feet. I do not understand, therefore, why Bernie is being given the finger by both the NYTimes and Obama.
Bernie is Obama if Obama could complete a sentence without pivoting to race, class, and gender baiting. So when Douthat says that these two men are the same horses of a different color he is right. When you terrify a country long enough, the parlor crowd must look on horrified at what was wrought. And what was wrought are these two different manifestations of the drift of the past eight years.
It wasn't just the Republicans. And it wasn't just the Democrats. It was a collective decision to lead through demonization, both the POTUS and Congress. Both sides played the game with abandon. And now we are going to pay the piper.
Trashing a nation is an equal opportunity endeavor.
Thank you, Ross, for having the courage to call it out.
1
Here ! Amen! V of Los Angeles !
OBAMA:
Four more years! Four more years!
Four more years! Four more years!
36
Why now? Precisely because the elite keep saying that things are pretty good in America, and everyone else know it's not true. It's good for them, from their chairs, because the paid pundits at the NYT have book deals or university pensions. Student debt is up, longevity down or stagnating, drinking water poisoned. Compare this to 2012, when basically all the pundits agreed that things needed to get better. In these circumstances the only sane thing to do is to get angry.
193
@abo
Let's look back to 1980 when the scourge that Democrats and Liberals cannot describe enough, Ronald Reagan, took office.
Inflation was in the high teens.
Borrowing rates were in the high teens.
Ergo, home ownership was beyond the reach of many.
Medical care, by many measures, was as "backward" and "primitive" as you can extrapolate, given that all of the procedures developed in the last thirty-five years were not only not equitably distributed, they did not exist, period. So, healthcare was a mess.
The United States was facing an existential threat from the Soviet Union and had just boycotted the Summer Olympics.
American citizens were being held hostage in Tehran.
Communist China was holding billions of people under the thumb of a failed social experiment.
Yes, I guess you are right. It is much worse today. And it's all whose fault? Oh, yes. Ronald Reagan's fault.
I am a casual reader of the NYTimes, but I am getting the hang of it.
Reagan, with Volcker at the Fed, broke the ruinous inflation of the 1970s. The Cold War was about to be snapped. China pressed Deng Xiaoping forward as a means to emulate the progress in Eastern Europe and the Soviet Union.
All because we were led by a buffoon named Reagan.
He never won a Nobel Prize, like Obama, but I sure felt better each night knowing that he was protecting the nation.
Let's look back to 1980 when the scourge that Democrats and Liberals cannot describe enough, Ronald Reagan, took office.
Inflation was in the high teens.
Borrowing rates were in the high teens.
Ergo, home ownership was beyond the reach of many.
Medical care, by many measures, was as "backward" and "primitive" as you can extrapolate, given that all of the procedures developed in the last thirty-five years were not only not equitably distributed, they did not exist, period. So, healthcare was a mess.
The United States was facing an existential threat from the Soviet Union and had just boycotted the Summer Olympics.
American citizens were being held hostage in Tehran.
Communist China was holding billions of people under the thumb of a failed social experiment.
Yes, I guess you are right. It is much worse today. And it's all whose fault? Oh, yes. Ronald Reagan's fault.
I am a casual reader of the NYTimes, but I am getting the hang of it.
Reagan, with Volcker at the Fed, broke the ruinous inflation of the 1970s. The Cold War was about to be snapped. China pressed Deng Xiaoping forward as a means to emulate the progress in Eastern Europe and the Soviet Union.
All because we were led by a buffoon named Reagan.
He never won a Nobel Prize, like Obama, but I sure felt better each night knowing that he was protecting the nation.
3
The only time Reagan had an original, independent thought was when he was a communist in Hollywood. He recanted, became a b movie actor facing mediocre prospects. GE picked him up as a TV presenter and America came to know him as a congenial, folksy, even-keeled, common-sense kind of guy. That allowed his corporate handlers from J. Walter Thompson to elect him Governor of California, where he signed the bill legalizing abortion in California. He also rescued a boy drowning in a pool.
To win the presidential election, Republican strategists developed abortion into a powerful wedge issue that cleaved working class Catholic Democrats from the Democratic Party and also carried the South again, after Nixon a Republican redoubt. Reagan, a notoriously detached and disinterested president, allowed his J. Walter Thompson alumni Haldeman and Ehrlichman to cut taxes for corporations, expand defense spending exponentially, and institutionalize trickle-down. Reagan was amiable, made a great speech, and Americans trusted and liked him.
Recent accounts of his final term suggest he was already deeply senile and corporate agents everywhere in government, led by Haldeman and Erhlichman, reset programs and policies to mainly benefit corporations. Reagan just smiled his way through the corporate subversion of government, probably oblivious to all that was happening. Happy just to read the script he was given. In his name, America was auctioned off. He didn't protect anything.
To win the presidential election, Republican strategists developed abortion into a powerful wedge issue that cleaved working class Catholic Democrats from the Democratic Party and also carried the South again, after Nixon a Republican redoubt. Reagan, a notoriously detached and disinterested president, allowed his J. Walter Thompson alumni Haldeman and Ehrlichman to cut taxes for corporations, expand defense spending exponentially, and institutionalize trickle-down. Reagan was amiable, made a great speech, and Americans trusted and liked him.
Recent accounts of his final term suggest he was already deeply senile and corporate agents everywhere in government, led by Haldeman and Erhlichman, reset programs and policies to mainly benefit corporations. Reagan just smiled his way through the corporate subversion of government, probably oblivious to all that was happening. Happy just to read the script he was given. In his name, America was auctioned off. He didn't protect anything.
6
Decadence? That's the problem? Perhaps in the eyes of a reactionary catholic (but not in the eyes of the Pope, who has a very different take on society's ills). What most Democrats see is a state dangerously close to becoming a plutocracy, if the Republicans have their way. Big money's corruption of our politics and institutions, not decadence, is the problem. Oh, and Douthat is right about the absurdity of Trump as decadence's scourge. It is laughable, and should disprove his "decadence" premise.
174
The fact that even liberal beievers in a gigantic, powerful central government are upset tells you how big a failure this president has been. BUT his approach shots are looking much better, thank you.
The only failure I see is the GOP. You can take that to the bank.
4
I have an answer, but most in this community won’t like it. It’s all boiling over now because Mitt Romney didn’t win last time out.
We were facing all of these issues in the last election, but we narrowly re-elected Barack Obama, who caused a lot of those issues to poison our flesh then fester further for three years, making it almost obligatory to amputate SOMETHING now. We did that largely to avoid the failure of our first African American president, but the reason is unimportant – it remains that Romney might have addressed a lot of the frustrations out there born of frozen politics and ineffective elective government; but never had the chance. So the frustrations festered further. We’re now seeking to address them all at once.
So, sure it’s a revolt against perceived establishment decadence, but more to the point it’s a revolt against finding ourselves in a sailboat in the middle of the ocean, unable to move in any direction for lack of wind. In Sanders we may see inability to be effective with a Republican Congress and with Trump inability to chart a strategic course and navigate it; but BOTH suggest fundamental change from seven years caught in a windless sea, just killing time.
And the truth is that with EITHER Sanders OR Trump, we’re as likely to start moving in the wrong direction as in the right one, but at least we can be sure that we’d be moving.
We were facing all of these issues in the last election, but we narrowly re-elected Barack Obama, who caused a lot of those issues to poison our flesh then fester further for three years, making it almost obligatory to amputate SOMETHING now. We did that largely to avoid the failure of our first African American president, but the reason is unimportant – it remains that Romney might have addressed a lot of the frustrations out there born of frozen politics and ineffective elective government; but never had the chance. So the frustrations festered further. We’re now seeking to address them all at once.
So, sure it’s a revolt against perceived establishment decadence, but more to the point it’s a revolt against finding ourselves in a sailboat in the middle of the ocean, unable to move in any direction for lack of wind. In Sanders we may see inability to be effective with a Republican Congress and with Trump inability to chart a strategic course and navigate it; but BOTH suggest fundamental change from seven years caught in a windless sea, just killing time.
And the truth is that with EITHER Sanders OR Trump, we’re as likely to start moving in the wrong direction as in the right one, but at least we can be sure that we’d be moving.
13
"I have an answer..."
You must not have been looking at your keyboard when you typed that last word. I think you meant "confabulation."
You must not have been looking at your keyboard when you typed that last word. I think you meant "confabulation."
7
Richard,
Again you get no argument from me. Alberta after 80 years of right wing Christianist government and Conservative government voted in a Socialist government. Lo and behold they invoke the spirit of Thomas Paine and Richard Nixon. I will say again Alberta's largest immigrant group is Americans with Texas and Utah providing more than their fair share. Alberta is still to the right of Richard Luettgen I lived there for 15 years yet in 2015 they voted socialist.
Albertans are among the best educated people on the planet and thir government has invested incredible amounts of money in health, welfare and education because money came in so quickly the government couldn't spend it fast enough.
I think the following article is worthy of broadcast by both thinking conservatives and thinking progressives we can no longer afford maniacal reactionaries of either right left or center. Today was I think proof positive that we are in deep doo-doo as even the center is replete with knee jerk reactionaries.
http://www.24news.ca/the-news/canada-news/137313-old-anti-poverty-idea-g...
Again you get no argument from me. Alberta after 80 years of right wing Christianist government and Conservative government voted in a Socialist government. Lo and behold they invoke the spirit of Thomas Paine and Richard Nixon. I will say again Alberta's largest immigrant group is Americans with Texas and Utah providing more than their fair share. Alberta is still to the right of Richard Luettgen I lived there for 15 years yet in 2015 they voted socialist.
Albertans are among the best educated people on the planet and thir government has invested incredible amounts of money in health, welfare and education because money came in so quickly the government couldn't spend it fast enough.
I think the following article is worthy of broadcast by both thinking conservatives and thinking progressives we can no longer afford maniacal reactionaries of either right left or center. Today was I think proof positive that we are in deep doo-doo as even the center is replete with knee jerk reactionaries.
http://www.24news.ca/the-news/canada-news/137313-old-anti-poverty-idea-g...
2
Your premise is laughable. We reelected Obama because, of the two candidates, he was the most competent and grounded. You must remember that Romney changed his position on almost everything of importance during the campaign and then disavowed the only success he could claim as a governor-Romneycare. That was before he wrote off 47 percent of the electorate as freeloaders whom he apparently didn't deem worthy of his attention. The subtle racism of declaring that we reelected Obama to "avoid the failure of our first African American president" is beneath serious discussion(and would require some documentation if it were to be taken seriously). We reelected him because we trusted him to continue making rational decisions in his office and not move the country(in cahoots with a Republican congress and SCOTUS) back to the age of robber barons. A revolt against "establishment decadence" would not have been averted by having elected a decadent establishment President in 2012. What we averted was complete disaster.
29
There have been two significant insurgent movements in the past 8 years: the Tea Party and Occupy. Both parties initially ignored them or attempted to co-opt them and get back to lining their pockets. But the insurgencies rather than remaining marginalized, galvanized movements to redefine the parties. It's a nascent and grass roots form of democracy that pundits have no experience with; hence we get convoluted arguments like this from all the usual suspects at this paper.
104
Ah, but there IS a difference in these movements: one is ruled by the stars---the astro-turf tea party---and one has humbler---ground---roots that is attached to the real world.
4
What a silly column! This is false equivalence taken to its nutty extreme. Trump is a blustering bully,a populist who is too lazy even to find out if he what he is saying is true, and wiling to capitalize on anything to claim attention. Sanders had been pretty consistent in his message and its one that speaks to the inescapable (because the data is there) condition where the very few 0.1% control disproportionately both wealth and influence. The only common feature is not shared by Trump and Sanders, but, in a sense by their followers. That feature is the the disgust that they share for the blatant self-interest and greed, the willingness, independent of party, to go to bed with the wealth, which has been repeatedly shown by our political class. In short, the electorate has had enough of its so-called political leaders. There is a struggle, for Democrats, to find a leader who is committed and reliably concerned with the under-priviledged, and who can be elected. For the GOP it's to find someone who is competent, conservative and preferably believes that facts matter. Trump fails on all counts, and for Democrats a decision is made harder by the likes of the NY Times and other media who pre-ordain a corporate choice.
362
"[W]hy is everything boiling over in this particular cycle, in this presidential campaign?"
The American people are sick and tired of 35 years of Reaganomics.
We need a president who will represent the 99 percent, seek the support of the American people to advance a progressive agenda, address climate change in a bold way, and choose Supreme Court nominees who will make overturning Citizens United a priority.
We need a president who supports strengthening financial regulation, breaking up the big banks, cracking down on offshore tax shelters, returning to progressive taxation, eliminating corporate tax loopholes, rewriting our disastrous trade agreements, and investing in our crumbling infrastructure.
We need a president who will fight to bring health care to all and supports strengthening labor legislation, raising the minimum wage to a $15 living wage, pay equity for women, strengthening the social safety net, and making public colleges tuition-free.
And we need a president who supports cutting the bloated military budget, reining in the NSA, net neutrality, and GMO labeling.
Americans are feeling the Bern.
The American people are sick and tired of 35 years of Reaganomics.
We need a president who will represent the 99 percent, seek the support of the American people to advance a progressive agenda, address climate change in a bold way, and choose Supreme Court nominees who will make overturning Citizens United a priority.
We need a president who supports strengthening financial regulation, breaking up the big banks, cracking down on offshore tax shelters, returning to progressive taxation, eliminating corporate tax loopholes, rewriting our disastrous trade agreements, and investing in our crumbling infrastructure.
We need a president who will fight to bring health care to all and supports strengthening labor legislation, raising the minimum wage to a $15 living wage, pay equity for women, strengthening the social safety net, and making public colleges tuition-free.
And we need a president who supports cutting the bloated military budget, reining in the NSA, net neutrality, and GMO labeling.
Americans are feeling the Bern.
435
I have to agree. We are sick of corporatists. We are also sick of ideologues who hide behind partisanship to win elections instead of listening to the people and rolling up their shirt sleeves to do the real work of revising, updating, beefing up the necessary agencies of government...yes, EPA is one of them; FCC is another.
We are also tired of Right Wing folks tearing down our institutions and telling us our government is the problem while they wrap themselves in the flag and evangelical superiority (to say nothing of useless war). And the Republicans always going crazy when Democrats are in the White House (from Jimmy Carter on, as I remember).
We are also sick of the like of Steve Jobs, Frank Underwood, and Gordon Gekko types touted as heroes. Until the Republicans clean their house, ridding us of hair on fire fear, hatred, disdain, negativity and neglect of real issues, I can only hope that Republicans get the resounding defeat they so well deserve.
We are also tired of Right Wing folks tearing down our institutions and telling us our government is the problem while they wrap themselves in the flag and evangelical superiority (to say nothing of useless war). And the Republicans always going crazy when Democrats are in the White House (from Jimmy Carter on, as I remember).
We are also sick of the like of Steve Jobs, Frank Underwood, and Gordon Gekko types touted as heroes. Until the Republicans clean their house, ridding us of hair on fire fear, hatred, disdain, negativity and neglect of real issues, I can only hope that Republicans get the resounding defeat they so well deserve.
22
reply to RLS: Actually we've had a President willing and at the ready to do all you listed; what has been missing for 8 years, is a Congress willing to put it in action: Presidents have the agenda; Congress must be willing to cooperate.
7
While I totally agree with everything you say, there will be no change unless we change the make-up of the House and Senate. This is where the obstruction is...and even if by some miracle, Bernie wins the Presidency, he will face the same roadblocks as President Obama...
2
Society is unable to advance because conservatives slammed on the brakes the day Mr. Obama was elected. They wasted endless time needling Obama with birther conspiracies, calls for college transcripts, claims of anti-colonialism and threats of second-amendment solutions to the liberal problem. They governed by not governing, by shutting down the government, by promising Grover Norquist that they wouldn’t raise taxes, and by filibustering everything that moved.
Republicans thought that society consisted of straight, rich white men with fundamentalist leanings. That kind of society did just fine, while every other sector withered and scraped along with no prospects of a better future.
Any success Obama had during this time was obstructed, denigrated and trivialized. It wasn’t enough that he eliminated Osama bin Laden, rescued the economy, ended the Bush wars, provided affordable health care and rang in marriage equality for gay couples.
Douthat thinks that mentioning Trump and Sanders in the same sentence will make the two equivalent, a rhetorical ploy that is not worthy of a pundit in the paper of record. He mentions welfare states, socialism, and, heaven forbid, Scandinavia, in an effort to make resuscitating the middle-class sound like a communist conspiracy.
If there is to be a revolt, it will be driven by people who are fed up with ignorance, stonewalling, pandering and fomenting class hatred. And it will be led by Bernie Sanders.
Republicans thought that society consisted of straight, rich white men with fundamentalist leanings. That kind of society did just fine, while every other sector withered and scraped along with no prospects of a better future.
Any success Obama had during this time was obstructed, denigrated and trivialized. It wasn’t enough that he eliminated Osama bin Laden, rescued the economy, ended the Bush wars, provided affordable health care and rang in marriage equality for gay couples.
Douthat thinks that mentioning Trump and Sanders in the same sentence will make the two equivalent, a rhetorical ploy that is not worthy of a pundit in the paper of record. He mentions welfare states, socialism, and, heaven forbid, Scandinavia, in an effort to make resuscitating the middle-class sound like a communist conspiracy.
If there is to be a revolt, it will be driven by people who are fed up with ignorance, stonewalling, pandering and fomenting class hatred. And it will be led by Bernie Sanders.
831
Thanks for our admission that even you have been taught not to ask the hard questions about this blank slate of a president. You HAD to have been about what he said and wrote in college, but even you were broken dowb enough not to be curious any more.
What else can I say? This man damages everything he touches. But at least G knows to hate the opposition, so George Soros can still smile tonight.
What else can I say? This man damages everything he touches. But at least G knows to hate the opposition, so George Soros can still smile tonight.
2
@gemli - It may be hard for you to realize that your idea of society's advancement does not agree with everyone else's. Had Obama not ramrodded the ACA through with no Republican votes and a number of bribes to Dem. Senators, he might well not have suffered such an electoral rebuke in 2010. A concentration on jobs would have gone a long way at that time.
And by the way, the ACA does not provide affordable healthcare, other than some preventive services. It does provide unaffordable insurance and is a transfer tax on the middle class, one reason a lot of them are angry.
And by the way, the ACA does not provide affordable healthcare, other than some preventive services. It does provide unaffordable insurance and is a transfer tax on the middle class, one reason a lot of them are angry.
1
@ Gemli - Yes, Gemli, I like that "and heaven forbid, even Scandinavia". Bernie Sanders thinks Scandinavian (Swedish) as concerns free college education, Universal Health Care, and renwable energy - he knows more about this last than he gets a chance to reveal - and from my position here in Sweden I can only say, Bernie give us even more.
Even more? Over in Finland, my other Nordic country, a formal discussion has begun about carrying out a test of the possibility of given every (adult?) citizen a monthly basic wage, no matter what that citizen's economic status. This would be similar to, for example, Swedish child support that does not take into account parental status. I discovered this at qtz .com and hope to learn more.
Only-NeverInSweden.blogspot.com
Dual citizen-USA-SE
Even more? Over in Finland, my other Nordic country, a formal discussion has begun about carrying out a test of the possibility of given every (adult?) citizen a monthly basic wage, no matter what that citizen's economic status. This would be similar to, for example, Swedish child support that does not take into account parental status. I discovered this at qtz .com and hope to learn more.
Only-NeverInSweden.blogspot.com
Dual citizen-USA-SE
6
Ross is puzzled.
Why now, he asks, when things don't seem so bad in America, are so many people attracted to Trump and Sanders?
Let us ignore, for the purposes of discussion, the absurdity of linking the two candidates, as Trump's candidacy has all the sophistication of a professional wrestling show while Sanders is channeling the ghost of Lincoln by asking us to appeal to the better angels of our nature.
The author, who weekly condemns liberal establishment "elitism", is blind to his own willful ignorance of what's happening in his own country.
Many people have never recovered from the economic crisis of 2008.
The middle class is under constant economic stress.
Many Trump supporters share the same anxieties as those who support Sanders.
Sanders is not a true socialist but rather a FDR New Deal Democrat who sees that FDR's party has sold-out to Wall Street and big business.
I see the fix is in against Sanders and the establishment types will paint him a dark shade of pink, ignoring the possibility that his proposals can work if, and only if, we change the negative mentality against government ingrained in our psyche after 35 years of reactionary propaganda.
Why now, he asks, when things don't seem so bad in America, are so many people attracted to Trump and Sanders?
Let us ignore, for the purposes of discussion, the absurdity of linking the two candidates, as Trump's candidacy has all the sophistication of a professional wrestling show while Sanders is channeling the ghost of Lincoln by asking us to appeal to the better angels of our nature.
The author, who weekly condemns liberal establishment "elitism", is blind to his own willful ignorance of what's happening in his own country.
Many people have never recovered from the economic crisis of 2008.
The middle class is under constant economic stress.
Many Trump supporters share the same anxieties as those who support Sanders.
Sanders is not a true socialist but rather a FDR New Deal Democrat who sees that FDR's party has sold-out to Wall Street and big business.
I see the fix is in against Sanders and the establishment types will paint him a dark shade of pink, ignoring the possibility that his proposals can work if, and only if, we change the negative mentality against government ingrained in our psyche after 35 years of reactionary propaganda.
422
I willing to believe this is my limitation, but I just don't see how the word decadence applies to a society that is "seemingly unable to advance in the way that its citizens once took for granted. A society where people have fewer children and hold diminished expectations for the future, where institutions don’t work particularly well but can’t seem to be effectively reformed, where growth is slow and technological progress disappoints. A society that fights to a stalemate in its foreign wars, even as domestic debates repeat themselves without any resolution. A society disillusioned with existing religions and ideologies, but lacking new sources of meaning to take their place." And I find the connotations of the word decadence distracting from what the argument would be if we stuck to the details listed. To me, this column seems like two ideas mashed together, decadence and stagnation. The stagnation idea seems to me supported by the details included, the decadence idea for me seems to come out of nowhere.
138
Ms. Moses: Consider that the word "decadence" shares a root with the word "decay," and Mr. Douthat is not far from the mark. It is not just a lack of progress (stagnation), but a coming apart of what once held us together.
More literally, our infrastructure is not merely stagnant; it it decaying, and we refuse to remedy the situation. Ditto for the global ecological threat.
I certainly disagree with much of what Mr Douthat has to say here, but I do credit him with an apt choice of terms for what ails us. Perhaps the clearest proof of our collective decadence is our evident insincerity about finding real solutions.
More literally, our infrastructure is not merely stagnant; it it decaying, and we refuse to remedy the situation. Ditto for the global ecological threat.
I certainly disagree with much of what Mr Douthat has to say here, but I do credit him with an apt choice of terms for what ails us. Perhaps the clearest proof of our collective decadence is our evident insincerity about finding real solutions.
6
We care nothing for what builds up the individual any more. We only waste our attention on the shiny objects in our culture - celebrity, entertainment, sports, and political argument.
THAT is a decadent society. Let's see people start rebuilding the supports like family, community, religious faith, and common causes.Americans don't even physically speak to each other any more, & the social media is a cancer growing on things that once built us up, individually and as a group.
THAT is a decadent society. Let's see people start rebuilding the supports like family, community, religious faith, and common causes.Americans don't even physically speak to each other any more, & the social media is a cancer growing on things that once built us up, individually and as a group.
4
What an awful column linking Sanders to Trump and Sanders to the Iraq War. You know he voted against the War Ross. If the Administration had listened to Sanders we would be 3 trillion richer, not bogged down for 13 years fighting the latest greatest terrorist organization with no end in sight. How many more people would be alive?
But those are small worries compared to the corporations who make billions off of death and destruction. Just like the medical corporations who have their bought and paid for representatives tell us single payer is just a "happy dream" (Krugman).
Sanders is popular because only he presents the sustainable path to America's future. We cannot have another 30 years of exploding wealth/income inequality, dysfunctional healthcare that leaves 29 million uninsured, students facing skyrocketing tuition. Like it or not Ross, it is unsustainable for the vast majority of People.
So quit trying to scare people away from wanting a better life, while the plutocrats never seem to have enough. Don't act like free higher education is a dream when many of us benefited from it. Quit acting like single payer is unattainable when every industrialized country has figured it out. Just stop.
We all know the moneyed interests control policy in this Country. That is a fact. Wall Street controls congress. If you cannot pay, you don't play. The game is rigged.
We finally have a candidate who believes to his core this is wrong. Don't be scared. Be excited.
But those are small worries compared to the corporations who make billions off of death and destruction. Just like the medical corporations who have their bought and paid for representatives tell us single payer is just a "happy dream" (Krugman).
Sanders is popular because only he presents the sustainable path to America's future. We cannot have another 30 years of exploding wealth/income inequality, dysfunctional healthcare that leaves 29 million uninsured, students facing skyrocketing tuition. Like it or not Ross, it is unsustainable for the vast majority of People.
So quit trying to scare people away from wanting a better life, while the plutocrats never seem to have enough. Don't act like free higher education is a dream when many of us benefited from it. Quit acting like single payer is unattainable when every industrialized country has figured it out. Just stop.
We all know the moneyed interests control policy in this Country. That is a fact. Wall Street controls congress. If you cannot pay, you don't play. The game is rigged.
We finally have a candidate who believes to his core this is wrong. Don't be scared. Be excited.
676
I am more than willing to cut Krugman some slack.I have lived with single payer for forty years and still don't know what single payer system is but I know some of the permutations and combinations. I have lived in in only three provinces have lived through at least six different systems.
I do think single payer is the way to go but defining single payer is impossible as needs change.
I lived in Alberta when the money was pouring in so fast the government had to think of new creative ways to spend it which is particularly difficult if you call yourself conservative.
Building hospitals in every town of a thousand people is particularly silly when towns are less than ten miles apart and you don't have the the doctors nurses or patients to warrant the facility but it is excellent politically when each hospital has a full time administration and a board of directors who are paid to attend meetings.
Here in Quebec having too much money has never been a problem and making the dollars go as far possible has meant full time employment for healthcare economists for 45 years.
I think our Quebec government is on to something with its current system and feel Dr Krugman might be particularly enamoured of our latest healthcare model. Our model is not the product of political expediency but of professional economists.Our universities control all our health and welfare under a very wide mandate. I hate shopping centers but an all under one roof health education and welfare system is a wow..
I do think single payer is the way to go but defining single payer is impossible as needs change.
I lived in Alberta when the money was pouring in so fast the government had to think of new creative ways to spend it which is particularly difficult if you call yourself conservative.
Building hospitals in every town of a thousand people is particularly silly when towns are less than ten miles apart and you don't have the the doctors nurses or patients to warrant the facility but it is excellent politically when each hospital has a full time administration and a board of directors who are paid to attend meetings.
Here in Quebec having too much money has never been a problem and making the dollars go as far possible has meant full time employment for healthcare economists for 45 years.
I think our Quebec government is on to something with its current system and feel Dr Krugman might be particularly enamoured of our latest healthcare model. Our model is not the product of political expediency but of professional economists.Our universities control all our health and welfare under a very wide mandate. I hate shopping centers but an all under one roof health education and welfare system is a wow..
4
Bravo. Ross labeling initiatives to ensure opportunities 'welfare' demonstrated the weakness of his argument. Just take a minimum wage increase, which reduces dependency on government programs. Free birth control and good sex ed reduce unplanned pregnancies that mire the poor and their children in poverty. Wake up Ross.
10
Excellent comments! One of the main reasons I'm for Bernie Sanders is because I have a son, many nieces and nephews, and friends and colleagues with children. Their future is not looking so bright. They have college debts, lack of good job opportunities, and healthcare affordability concerns once they are past the age of 26. Those who are not "college material" are stuck in minimum wage jobs. Most critically, the planet they will inherit from us is in deep trouble. This septegenarian is the only candidate out there who is trying to make the future brighter for them!
1
Why now? In DT's case it's called "twitter" and "reality television". He's entertaining, which in no way makes him any more electable than the court jester of the time he wants to return us to. In Senator Sanders case it is aging people who have not paid enough attention to politics for the past 40+ years, as their lives were being steadily eroded, and young people who want a country more like the one we had before President Kennedy, Martin Luther King and Bobby Kennedy were brutally murdered. Ms. Hillary Rodham Clinton is the MOST QUALIFIED CANDIDATE and has the MOST POLITICAL CAPITAL to help US restore democracy in America - with the help of democrats like Senators Sanders and Warren, Ms. Nancy Pelosi and the vast majority of democrats in office who have been waiting for US to DEMAND change.
32
njglea: Not certain of your assessment about "wanting a Country more like the one we had before President Kennedy, Martin Luther Kings and Bobby Kennedy were brutally murdered". Are you old enough to even know what the country was like then? If so, today's young people have absolutely no knowledge of that "country" since most history books devote but a mere few pages to a most complex time in our nation: Are you further stating this was a great time: The beginnings of our Vietnam/Communist engagements: Civil rights unrest, riots, war protests, etc. This was not a great time to be a young man facing the draft, anyone of color, a female. Your revisionist history is off center to say the least.
7
Yes, I agree Donna, the Vietman war was a travesty - just like the Iraq war. I have seriously researched and studied the time period and it was a time of people speaking out and causing change. I believe America would be totally different if the three champions of social good that I mentioned had lived.
2
"Consider: The economic picture is better than it was in 2012..."
No. The economic is not better than it was in 2012. It is different, but the level of despair and poverty isn't qualitatively different. Those who gave up working, are still out there waiting for work. Those who've had to find ways to subsist in the gig economy are still doing that, many badly. Many of those who lost good jobs at the start of the recession, mid-career, are still looking and have been living precariously since the end of long-term unemployment was agreed to by Sen. Patty Murray and Rep. Paul Ryan. That's where our family has been.
Young people who are in school or finished these last few years and are unable to make it on their own for either the lack of appropriate jobs or much lower wages and huge student debt burdens are not doing better - certainly not better or even close to how their parents did and they know precisely why that is, in spite of the pablum the media has been feeding us.
If you know where to look, you will find economists who are anxiously watching the markets, wage growth and other factors and are honest enough to explain not only how politics is behind the lack of amelioration, but in the hands of voters.
We are the precariat (. We are those who will either vote for Sanders or (God forbid) Trump. Sanders has risen in the polls in spite of the "Fight of the Burros (my essay http://wp.me/p2KJ3H-1V1) and the media.
This isn't about decadence, but a return to decency.
No. The economic is not better than it was in 2012. It is different, but the level of despair and poverty isn't qualitatively different. Those who gave up working, are still out there waiting for work. Those who've had to find ways to subsist in the gig economy are still doing that, many badly. Many of those who lost good jobs at the start of the recession, mid-career, are still looking and have been living precariously since the end of long-term unemployment was agreed to by Sen. Patty Murray and Rep. Paul Ryan. That's where our family has been.
Young people who are in school or finished these last few years and are unable to make it on their own for either the lack of appropriate jobs or much lower wages and huge student debt burdens are not doing better - certainly not better or even close to how their parents did and they know precisely why that is, in spite of the pablum the media has been feeding us.
If you know where to look, you will find economists who are anxiously watching the markets, wage growth and other factors and are honest enough to explain not only how politics is behind the lack of amelioration, but in the hands of voters.
We are the precariat (. We are those who will either vote for Sanders or (God forbid) Trump. Sanders has risen in the polls in spite of the "Fight of the Burros (my essay http://wp.me/p2KJ3H-1V1) and the media.
This isn't about decadence, but a return to decency.
182
Rima,
Canada's most conservative and most religious province has a socialist government. Albertans have been extremely rich for a long long time and have excellent infrastructure, great health and welfare and great schools colleges and universities. Albertans understand the needs of the future and even though they are as conservative as they have always been they elected a socialist government.
Here is a link that might explain why.
http://www.24news.ca/the-news/canada-news/137313-old-anti-poverty-idea-g...
Canada's most conservative and most religious province has a socialist government. Albertans have been extremely rich for a long long time and have excellent infrastructure, great health and welfare and great schools colleges and universities. Albertans understand the needs of the future and even though they are as conservative as they have always been they elected a socialist government.
Here is a link that might explain why.
http://www.24news.ca/the-news/canada-news/137313-old-anti-poverty-idea-g...
8
Let me name a few things in American history that were impossible or implausible.
Independence
Abolition
Women's suffrage
Social Security
Medicare
Civil Rights
Marriage equality
Until Bernie Sanders started his campaign, his ideas were not even discussed in polite company in Washington. Whether Ross likes it or not, they are here to stay, even if Bernie doesn't make it to the White House,
As Gandhi said: first they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win.
Independence
Abolition
Women's suffrage
Social Security
Medicare
Civil Rights
Marriage equality
Until Bernie Sanders started his campaign, his ideas were not even discussed in polite company in Washington. Whether Ross likes it or not, they are here to stay, even if Bernie doesn't make it to the White House,
As Gandhi said: first they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win.
742
Yes, and look at the uncivilized, caste-driven system of inequality in India today. The problem with revolutions - like the one in Syria today - is that average people who are hurt the most quickly tire of the "fight" and if they do not get immediate rewards they leave the country and/or abandon the leaders they loved so much - as they did with President Obama in America. Change will not come quickly but it will come if we elect Ms. Hillary Rodham Clinton and a democrat/independent U.S. Congress and state legislatures/governors. That is the only way it will come.
24
njglea, there are 1.2 billion people in India. You cannot dismiss the entire country, "look at the uncivilized, caste-driven system of inequality in India today." When did you visit recently? NYT has something against India so it routinely posts articles against India and rarely shares stories about the good things happening in India. Have you ever wondered why 65% of its population, 35 or under, and half the country's population of 1.25 billion people under 25 years of age is not joining organizations like ISIS, why aren't they killing people, why aren't they declaring war with everyone?
13
njglea,
I am one who prefers evolution to revolution. I like Hillaries policies and her political acumen and I am more than willing to accept slow change that returns the USA to government of the people, by the people and for the people.
I am a Canadian married to a very wise and compassionate American who likes and respects Hillary Clinton and is as torn as you are especially with our children and grandchildren in the USA.
But positive change just ain't happening. It didn't happen under Clinton and it didn't happen under under Obama. The middle class which is the foundation of democracy is being hollowed out. Having lived in Chicago education is as separate and as equal as it was in Mississippi in the early 1960s.
I came across this memory of the 60s as I loaded my music collection onto my computer today sadly it is as true today as it was then.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u52Oz-54VYw
La plus ca change.
While America's middle class has suffered 45 years of decline Social Democratic Quebec our middle class is more optimistic and more prosperous every year. What is it about 5 dollar daycare, access to affordable university education, access to healthcare and a government that believes the welfare of its citizens that Americans don't understand? What do debts and deficits matter a healthy educated citizenry will take care of the future.
I am one who prefers evolution to revolution. I like Hillaries policies and her political acumen and I am more than willing to accept slow change that returns the USA to government of the people, by the people and for the people.
I am a Canadian married to a very wise and compassionate American who likes and respects Hillary Clinton and is as torn as you are especially with our children and grandchildren in the USA.
But positive change just ain't happening. It didn't happen under Clinton and it didn't happen under under Obama. The middle class which is the foundation of democracy is being hollowed out. Having lived in Chicago education is as separate and as equal as it was in Mississippi in the early 1960s.
I came across this memory of the 60s as I loaded my music collection onto my computer today sadly it is as true today as it was then.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u52Oz-54VYw
La plus ca change.
While America's middle class has suffered 45 years of decline Social Democratic Quebec our middle class is more optimistic and more prosperous every year. What is it about 5 dollar daycare, access to affordable university education, access to healthcare and a government that believes the welfare of its citizens that Americans don't understand? What do debts and deficits matter a healthy educated citizenry will take care of the future.
20
I just finished a trip around the South. I understand people are known to be angry. There is sweeping dissatisfaction with the way things have been going. There is; polls tell as much and they are accurate.
Yet logging off, going outside, I failed to see evidence
Americans are busy, confident, gregarious, moving about without hint they might somehow be anxious, distressed, or angry. Our conversations were as engaging as ever. People were quick to laugh; Americans, as ever, are open and chatty. Body language seems healthy. No one appeared guarded or leery.
We read ideas about how things no longer work in America - as well as where or when? I’m 75. The stuff of everyday American life works ten times better than when I was a young adult. Road tripping, as I just did, was, in the 1960’s, wonderful, but so far as “working well” goes, it couldn’t hold a candle to life today.
It’s as if we know things in the USA are all but terrible, as if there’s a fixed – maybe given - immutability to this knowledge; things must be. It’s as if we know this about life in our country at large, accepting apparently, things are different – and much better - here in our hometowns where life is pretty good.