China appears to copying Obama's lead. Obama continues to be soft on Iran and they feel comfortable enough to blatantly and illegally test ICBMs. Kind of hypocritical of Obama/Kerry to say that China is too soft on North Korea.
2
The spread of nuclear weapons must be stopped. the danger nuclear weapons to fall on the hands of terrorist is a nigthmare.8 nations have nuclear weapons thats enough . Neither Iran or North Korea or any other nation should have nuclear weapons. The point is that the Us tells other nations they can not have nuclear weapons but the Us can it sounds a little presumptuous. North Korea feels insecure isolated. Only Cuba and Noth korea are fullfledge comunist countries . Afthe the violation of the soverignity of Libia and Syria by nato and the US Norht Korea fells threatned. Maybe China could insure the security of North Korea in exchange for North Korea renounce the ownership of nuclear wepons .Europe and the US should cease intervening in the internal affairs of sovereign nations,that can help greatly the prevention and spread of of those weapons.Small nations could feel secure
The US is correct, of course, but has the leadership of the Chinese Communist Party finally reached the point where they see the buffer North Korea provides between South Korea and China as less valuable than the insecurity North Korea creates?
That seems to be less certain, despite the tough language out of Beijing. Beijing has had uncharacteristic harsh words for North Korea over its previous nuclear tests as well, but still has not put the type of pressure on North Korean finances, trade and procurement of materials needed to make North Korea's ability to continue a nuclear weapons program impossible. The Communist leadership of China must have some red line they do not want to see crossed by North Korea in their nuclear weapon endeavors given that North Korea has the potential of destabilizing security and economic stability that is so important to Chinese economic success and that is not even mentioning the threat of a nuclear disaster either by accident or response to a North Korean attack on a US ally that could pose some serious radioactive fallout problems for Chinese territory.
We can all hope this time China will deal with North Korea in a manner only they can, but based on previous incidents already - the proof will be in the pudding.
That seems to be less certain, despite the tough language out of Beijing. Beijing has had uncharacteristic harsh words for North Korea over its previous nuclear tests as well, but still has not put the type of pressure on North Korean finances, trade and procurement of materials needed to make North Korea's ability to continue a nuclear weapons program impossible. The Communist leadership of China must have some red line they do not want to see crossed by North Korea in their nuclear weapon endeavors given that North Korea has the potential of destabilizing security and economic stability that is so important to Chinese economic success and that is not even mentioning the threat of a nuclear disaster either by accident or response to a North Korean attack on a US ally that could pose some serious radioactive fallout problems for Chinese territory.
We can all hope this time China will deal with North Korea in a manner only they can, but based on previous incidents already - the proof will be in the pudding.
1
WOW - the US has such a great track record of positively influencing developments in nations it perceives as an "enemy" - China must be breathlessly awaiting our advice on dealing with its neighbor!
Minus the sarcasm you are onto something.
"Enemy" China, meaning the Chinese Communist Party, is the dictatorship of oligarchs that is deliberately picking fights now that the nation has the gains of forty uears of american technology and demand, which it would have had decades ago but for that same dictatorship.
Piffle.
"Enemy" China, meaning the Chinese Communist Party, is the dictatorship of oligarchs that is deliberately picking fights now that the nation has the gains of forty uears of american technology and demand, which it would have had decades ago but for that same dictatorship.
Piffle.
WASHINGTON — In a striking public rebuke of China, Secretary of State John Kerry warned Beijing on Thursday that its effort to rein in North Korea had been a failure and that something had to change in its handling of the isolated country it has supported for the past six decades.
“China had a particular approach that it wanted to make, and we agreed and respected to give them space to be able to implement that,” Mr. Kerry said a day after North Korea’s latest nuclear test, after a phone call with his Chinese counterpart, Wang Yi. “Today in my conversation with the Chinese I made it clear: That has not worked, and we cannot continue business as usual.”
Blah Blah Blah ! 60 years - gosh that's a lot of space and Duh it hasn't worked then and probably won't work now- "cat is out of the bag" with North Korea and unfortunately appears to me too be a "too little , too late " approach - imo.
Ps Why is the US taking the lead on drafting a proposed resolution to the UN Security Council ?- can't it be co-authored by other countries who are threatened by North Korea and its nuclear arms to put more weight behind it and send a clear,coordinated message to the Council and members who sit on it ?
“China had a particular approach that it wanted to make, and we agreed and respected to give them space to be able to implement that,” Mr. Kerry said a day after North Korea’s latest nuclear test, after a phone call with his Chinese counterpart, Wang Yi. “Today in my conversation with the Chinese I made it clear: That has not worked, and we cannot continue business as usual.”
Blah Blah Blah ! 60 years - gosh that's a lot of space and Duh it hasn't worked then and probably won't work now- "cat is out of the bag" with North Korea and unfortunately appears to me too be a "too little , too late " approach - imo.
Ps Why is the US taking the lead on drafting a proposed resolution to the UN Security Council ?- can't it be co-authored by other countries who are threatened by North Korea and its nuclear arms to put more weight behind it and send a clear,coordinated message to the Council and members who sit on it ?
Let me see if I've gotten the U.S. point. Firstly, the U.S. wants China's aid to topple the North Korean regime and later to watch a unified Korea under the U.S. leadership. So, in this hypothetical new Korea, the Chinese would see several U.S. military bases alongside the border with the own China. Okay!
All this rationale only left one doubt: why does the U.S. disdain the Chinese average intelligence?!
All this rationale only left one doubt: why does the U.S. disdain the Chinese average intelligence?!
Then no, you do not have the US point.
The US wants China to apply the type of pressure only China can on North Korea to make their nuclear weapons program impossible to fund or obtain the needed supplies to continue. Given that North Korea is basically a Chinese puppet kept around for their own interests, that would mean only China has the actual ability to arrest the North Korean nuclear weapon program's progress. If that means the North Korean regime cracks and falls, so be it, but the US (and the vast majority of the world) really just wants to see a North Korean nuclear weapon threat negated and eliminated. That doesn't have to be from a change in the North Korean regime when China controls the levers that keeps North Korea's nuclear weapon program possible.
The US wants China to apply the type of pressure only China can on North Korea to make their nuclear weapons program impossible to fund or obtain the needed supplies to continue. Given that North Korea is basically a Chinese puppet kept around for their own interests, that would mean only China has the actual ability to arrest the North Korean nuclear weapon program's progress. If that means the North Korean regime cracks and falls, so be it, but the US (and the vast majority of the world) really just wants to see a North Korean nuclear weapon threat negated and eliminated. That doesn't have to be from a change in the North Korean regime when China controls the levers that keeps North Korea's nuclear weapon program possible.
Yeah yeah you China apologists.
Time for Taiwan to get its own nukes. And Japan. And South Korea. Maybe Vietnam, the Phillipines. If they are the sure cure to US aggression of rising living standsrs, must be to han aggression also. Then the US can leave. See if what is good for the goose is good for the gander. Must be from what some commenters repeat. Be fun to watch from a distance. Nuclear proliferation is such a clever game.
Time for Taiwan to get its own nukes. And Japan. And South Korea. Maybe Vietnam, the Phillipines. If they are the sure cure to US aggression of rising living standsrs, must be to han aggression also. Then the US can leave. See if what is good for the goose is good for the gander. Must be from what some commenters repeat. Be fun to watch from a distance. Nuclear proliferation is such a clever game.
If Henry Kissinger were secretary of state, he would try to form an alliance against China. Included in the alliance would be North Korea, South Korea, Japan, and the United States.
There's little better for China than a divided Korea.
In fact, a divided entire continent of Asia is about the only thing better, because as long as there is internal strife amongst the many nations that make up that area of the world, then China will continue to retain power.
Simply put: China is just the Saudi Arabia of the far east...
In fact, a divided entire continent of Asia is about the only thing better, because as long as there is internal strife amongst the many nations that make up that area of the world, then China will continue to retain power.
Simply put: China is just the Saudi Arabia of the far east...
Yo got the simple part down.
At this point, it would be appropriate to point out the economic dynamics of the situation outlined in the article. South Korea has a population twice that of North Korea, with a GDP many times that of its northern neighbor. (Moreover, South Korea, like virtually all Asian nations in the region, enjoys a significant trade imbalance with the US. Has for decades.) These other regional Asian nations, specifically Japan and China, have much greater concern in events. (Regional Asian trade is at risk.) The idea the United States has some "special unique interest" in these events has long passed. (America is in the Western Hemisphere.) And to continue to make that false assumption only empowers those who wish added intervention into the situation. A united international response is necessary. But the optimal words are "international response".
If you overlook the fact that the United States has a legal responsibility for the defense of Japan, upholding the truce between North and South Korea and strategic nuclear responsibilities for nations under the US nuclear umbrella.
It's psychology and history that Chinese leadership still needs North Korea as a buffer zone to counter US influence, fearing Pyongyang's collapse would lead to a humanitarian disaster and a reunited Korea under the leadership of Seoul. The Korean peninsula had long been of significance in the region for centuries, and China is still emotionally about its historical involvement there.
Yet ordinary Chinese citizens are less sentimental about history and past relationship with Pyongyang. They have poked fun at the chubby Kim in caricature and criticised the leadership in Beijing for being "too soft" on the young, unruly leader. The Chinese censors, for the moment, close their eyes to all insults and criticisms.
Yet ordinary Chinese citizens are less sentimental about history and past relationship with Pyongyang. They have poked fun at the chubby Kim in caricature and criticised the leadership in Beijing for being "too soft" on the young, unruly leader. The Chinese censors, for the moment, close their eyes to all insults and criticisms.
2
Here is a BBC link that shows a Chinese cartoon of Kim. Note the porcine snout.
http://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-trending-35255506
http://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-trending-35255506
The US is always available to point fingers and drop bombs but they're never around to pick up the pieces. Every time the US decideds to step in it's always in someone else's backyard so the mess is always on someone else's lawn.
After the mess they left in Iraq you'd think that America would pause and think twice... But of course again it's never their mess to clean up only to make.
After the mess they left in Iraq you'd think that America would pause and think twice... But of course again it's never their mess to clean up only to make.
1
The Obama Administration absolutely knows what it is talking about on this particular issue: failure. They are experts on failure and have plenty of experience; just look at the Middle East, Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria, Sudan, etc.
2
The only thing which will get the Chinese attention is import sanctions by the U.S. (strictly for Quality Control purposes). It's all about the money.
Good.
Then judging by China's response this morning they will have no problem understanding that this "red line" involves the security of our "core interests" as we quit placating North Korea and now start defending ourselves with the military buildup necessary to check their "little brother".
Then judging by China's response this morning they will have no problem understanding that this "red line" involves the security of our "core interests" as we quit placating North Korea and now start defending ourselves with the military buildup necessary to check their "little brother".
2
Jeeez, all we have to do to get their attention is slow walk 5% of Chinese imports for six months.
1
We're telling China not to take a "soft approach" on North Korea, but we use just such a tactic on those bozos who are occupying the wildlife refuge in Oregon? Gimme a break!
1
My, aren't we linear? How many nukes do the Oregon ranchers have, BTW? And when will the Rainy State's ranchers withdraw from Tibet??
Who is going to pay for this. China is about bankrupt so for them starting a war with N.Korea is farfetched.
To march 100,000 People's Army soldiers into North Korea from China costs next to nothing. You need a better excuse.
The 25 million residents of North Korea do not matter to China. What matters to the Chinese is having that buffer zone between themselves and American influence. It's sad how strong world players (China, Russia, the US) use less powerful populations in their power struggles.
2
So when will China erect a wall around Hong Kong to shield itself from American and British influence? And sever ties with Wal-Mart, Nike, and 100 other "American influenced" companies, too?
China is largely correct in its rebuke of American criticism of China's softer approach towards North Korea. The United States long ago lost the art of diplomatic innovation and persuasion based upon a realistic assessment of conditions.
The Middle East is a perfect example why not only China but Europe has been repelled by America's foreign policy efforts based either on force and punishment or neglect and nothing in between.
Even repeated military failure has not affected the arrogance present in American attitudes and attempts to shape the world.
China is necessary to reign in North Korea to be sure but the US needs to quietly draw China into a coordinated policy recognizing Chinese interests as well as our own, and not attempt merely to publicly embarrass Beijing for domestic political consumption.
The Middle East is a perfect example why not only China but Europe has been repelled by America's foreign policy efforts based either on force and punishment or neglect and nothing in between.
Even repeated military failure has not affected the arrogance present in American attitudes and attempts to shape the world.
China is necessary to reign in North Korea to be sure but the US needs to quietly draw China into a coordinated policy recognizing Chinese interests as well as our own, and not attempt merely to publicly embarrass Beijing for domestic political consumption.
4
What can you do when you have a crazy neighbor touting his bombs all the time when you cannot move away ? It's so easy for U.S. to tell others to get tough with a crazy guy! but China cannot afford to be sour with this crazy neighbor. Kerry shouldn't say irresponsible words like this, esp. when U.S. had conducted military practices with South Korea, and annoyed and tense up the N.Korea !
3
Why can't China do what you say it cannot do re: North Korea? Details, please.
The latest North Korean nuclear test demonstrates the weakness of U.S. foreign policy and the glaring incompetence of Secretary of State Kerry. Aside from at cocktail functions, Secretary Kerry has demonstrated no diplomatic acumen with zero accomplishments in office, much like his Senatorial career.
As such he garners little to no international respect. As a consequence, much like the Iranian deal, with zero monitoring and effect, whatever this U.S. Administration poses for rogue states regarding sanction will be ignored. Again no pragmatism or U.S. leadership is displayed let alone resolve and comprehension of world interests via perspectives of other cultures and nations.
As such he garners little to no international respect. As a consequence, much like the Iranian deal, with zero monitoring and effect, whatever this U.S. Administration poses for rogue states regarding sanction will be ignored. Again no pragmatism or U.S. leadership is displayed let alone resolve and comprehension of world interests via perspectives of other cultures and nations.
2
The conversation on nuclear disarmament and peace should be between North and South Korea, not China and the United States. Unfortunately, under the thuggish leadership of the two Koreas, Park Geun-hye and Kim Jong-un, I don't see this happening any time soon.
I hope in my lifetime grown ups end up sitting at a table and working out the Korea's differences and stop this nonsense about war and nuclear annihilation.
I hope in my lifetime grown ups end up sitting at a table and working out the Korea's differences and stop this nonsense about war and nuclear annihilation.
5
The leader of the free world has squandered his influence, and China knows this, along with Putin, best of all.
Expect nothing from this latest Obama/Kerry position.
Expect nothing from this latest Obama/Kerry position.
3
Read WaPo op-eds and editorials against Obama-Kerry's appeasement of North Korea, Iran, and others. Very forceful.
Finally, they are listening to Trump's ideas.
2
Actions speak louder than words.
Only when Japan, South Korea and Taiwan begin to nuke up will China finally wake up to the frankenstein that it has created, endorsed, & enabled for all of these past decades.
When the Chinese realize that they are surrounded by nukes on their doorstep then maybe they will rein in their NK client.
Until that happens then all of this is just idle chatter.
Only when Japan, South Korea and Taiwan begin to nuke up will China finally wake up to the frankenstein that it has created, endorsed, & enabled for all of these past decades.
When the Chinese realize that they are surrounded by nukes on their doorstep then maybe they will rein in their NK client.
Until that happens then all of this is just idle chatter.
2
Japan is on a military spending spree with offensive capabilities, and may even have amended its postwar Constitution to facilitate that. Their destroyers are integrated with ours via the AEGIS component of THAAD (star wars.)
" The unparralled vial our of Vietnam " should have read " The unparralled valour of Vietnam....... "
1
Israel thumbs its nose at the world because the US backs them regardless of the atrocities it commits on the people of Palestine. And China is doing the same with North Korea, and I'm sure the Russians do the same.
Once again America is home of the hypocrite.
Once again America is home of the hypocrite.
You cannot be serious comparing the Israel-Palestine issue with this. North Korea is a threat to global security while Israel is defending it's right to exist in a region filled with those who seek it's destruction.
2
The Chinese are a proud people and our business dealings have made them an economic power. Publicly telling them what they should do is a bad policy, behind the scenes yes, but to bluntly put it that the US is telling China how to handle North Korea will not work.
2
Maybe it is time for China to modernize their diplomacy then because China's preference for quiet backroom diplomacy of a bygone era does not seem to be serving them or anybody else very well any longer.
Kerry does not have to see beyond boarders for a spectacular foreign policy failure. American policy to ignore DPRK who had nukes and destroy Iraq/Saddam who had onthing was an utter disaster on both fronts.
Kerry...tough with China? Sure.
Apparently speak softly and carry a big stick has been revised to bellicose statements void of any substantive back up plans. Public admonishments will only harden China's resolve.
1
Sometimes I think America is the only country in the world whose citizens think that if we just say frog, everybody else will just jump.
But I'm pretty sure we're the only industrialzed country where most of our loudest have no more idea where Korea is than the Crimea.
But I'm pretty sure we're the only industrialzed country where most of our loudest have no more idea where Korea is than the Crimea.
1
The USA has long had a burning desire for China to have it's own Vietnam Nam with an outcome not dissimilar from America's.
North Korea seems to satisfy the preconditions with the USA. Hoping T.hat would equalize things in one crucial domain of non omnipotence irrespective of hard ware. All. irrespective of pacific wide and universal repercussions .
The unparralled vial our of Vietnam Nam may be matched by the unflinching determination of North Korea and the outcome will be similar to USA climb down , except he that China may have cards of its own that never the USA can defuse..
I do not think China will play American ball the way America played it in Vietnam Nam!
North Korea seems to satisfy the preconditions with the USA. Hoping T.hat would equalize things in one crucial domain of non omnipotence irrespective of hard ware. All. irrespective of pacific wide and universal repercussions .
The unparralled vial our of Vietnam Nam may be matched by the unflinching determination of North Korea and the outcome will be similar to USA climb down , except he that China may have cards of its own that never the USA can defuse..
I do not think China will play American ball the way America played it in Vietnam Nam!
1
"Vietnam Nam"? I don't think I have ever seen the name of that country styled in quite that way, Omar. Is your intention to be "poetic," that is, poetic in a pop-music sort of way? Oh, and you do not like the United States of America -- I can read that much into your comment.
Be assured, however, that China will have its hands full when its neighbors including Vietnam, Indonesia, the Philippines, etc., ultimately call the bluff with respect to China's new and outrageous claims of territorial sovereignty over international waters.
Be assured, however, that China will have its hands full when its neighbors including Vietnam, Indonesia, the Philippines, etc., ultimately call the bluff with respect to China's new and outrageous claims of territorial sovereignty over international waters.
Where does North Korea obtain the technical skills to design and engineer nuclear weapons? The Pyongyang U. Physics department is not exactly world renown, nor is the country's educational and technical infrastructure in general. And from whom does it get its uranium? It would seem those pipelines may well be places one could squeeze without have to use China.
China might well be reluctant to put the kind of pressure on North Korea that would cause the regime to fall and the country to implode. However, it might well stand by and let others choke off the expertise and material sources necessary to make nuclear weapons, perhaps even missiles.
Perhaps we need also need to let South Korea know they are going to have to deal with the north directly and not continue to let America shoulder the responsibility. If America indicates it will gradually stand down in South Korea, it will certainly lead North Korea to develope more aggressive fantasies and, perhaps, actions. However, it will also certainly lead South Korea, Japan, China, and other neighboring countries to develope a strategy and resolve to deal with North Korea. It is in none of their interests to have a nuclear armed North Korea.
China might well be reluctant to put the kind of pressure on North Korea that would cause the regime to fall and the country to implode. However, it might well stand by and let others choke off the expertise and material sources necessary to make nuclear weapons, perhaps even missiles.
Perhaps we need also need to let South Korea know they are going to have to deal with the north directly and not continue to let America shoulder the responsibility. If America indicates it will gradually stand down in South Korea, it will certainly lead North Korea to develope more aggressive fantasies and, perhaps, actions. However, it will also certainly lead South Korea, Japan, China, and other neighboring countries to develope a strategy and resolve to deal with North Korea. It is in none of their interests to have a nuclear armed North Korea.
1
God forbid we might be impolite to the country that is systematically hacking our companies and categorically stealing all our intellectual property. We really hope China might cause North Korea to, y'know, stop lobbing nuclear explosives aimlessly into the Pacific and constantly threatening to carpet bomb us. But let us not speak too harshly, too bluntly, too boldly to the country that owns $1.2T of American debt and continues to steal en masse from us. We might give inappropriate offense if we are insufficiently deferential. To mar the bounds of propriety in such a case would be most dreadful, most dreadful indeed. Shall we perhaps all sip cinnamon lattes and read the Times to calm our nerves?
No nation wants or needs nukes except to deter belligerent enemy governments from attacking.
The US sure goes out of its way to be belligerent and threaten North Korea... NK must do something to protect itself...... thus they run to the safety of mutual nuclear deterrence.. It is either that or roll over and submit to US domination.
We give NK reason to do what they do....
But then again, its good for the US business of making more advanced weapons systems..... For this, there is no substitute for having real enemies.. So we make enemies to keep the hideous specter rolling..
The US sure goes out of its way to be belligerent and threaten North Korea... NK must do something to protect itself...... thus they run to the safety of mutual nuclear deterrence.. It is either that or roll over and submit to US domination.
We give NK reason to do what they do....
But then again, its good for the US business of making more advanced weapons systems..... For this, there is no substitute for having real enemies.. So we make enemies to keep the hideous specter rolling..
1
"US Prodd China on North Korea" is a non solution. The first thing that must be negotiated between China and the US is what comes after reunification as the South absorbs the failed northern half of the Korean peninsula. Some guarantees will have to be made by both sides which will be uncomfortable for both to ensure a lasting peace is made. They will also have to be agreed in relative secrecy or the fallout would be interesting. But China needs to step up and take responsibility for the state they created during a different political epoch and still support.
2
The Chineese may finally realize that North Korea has become a far bigger threat to them, than to the West. Nothing attracts unwanted military attention like having the worlds most unstable and irrational nuclear power right on your border. While North Korea may never attack China directly, their actions could wreak far more havoc on its hyper-sensitive economy than on anyone else's. Chaos can arrive in a literal flash. North Korea also just provided the US and its allies another compelling reason to quickly deploy even more weaponry into China's own back yard. Japan now has more than enough justification to massively scale up its military. The combined fears of all China's neighbors could end up ringing the region in arms on a scale not seen since WWII. It is now time for China to get realistic and help the world take away junior's keys, before he wrecks the whole neighborhood for everyone.
3
The moment Kerry's Chinese counterpart put down the phone, no doubt he started laughing. China has no reason to take US displeasure or posturing like this seriously. In the last seven years the consistent message has been that when another country tests the resolve of the US, we blink and fold. Most recently, the Chinese successfully faced us down over their improbable claims to the South China Sea. Our supposed right of navigation exercise was so badly bungled (as reported in naval trade publications) that instead we invoked the right of Innocent Passage, only used when peacefully navigating through the territorial waters of another nation. What Kerry was thinking when he made this ridiculous call, who knows. With the final year of this administration upon us, it may not matter anyway at this point.
1
You ask, "What Kerry was thinking when he made this ridiculous call, who knows."
I bet he was thinking, "I'm wearing my Big Boy Pants!"
I bet he was thinking, "I'm wearing my Big Boy Pants!"
1
Or, "Teresa will really love this bravado!," in all of her 6 languages.
The Obama administrations warning are probably being met with belly laughter in China. Maybe he should tell them not to cross the red line.
1
The security council is the heaviest armed most dangerous group of Nations in the world. The own most of the Nuclear capability in the world and have spread conventional weapons, military training and nuclear power and technology around the world.
The security council should be quietly reducing their own nuclear weapons stockpiles and insist on nuclear disarmament by the other nations around the world.
Much of the tension in the world is a result of a small group of Countries which include the US, Russia and China who spread arms and military training around the globe for their own geopolitical self interest. We have to change the entire equation. Shut up and negotiate a future that doesn't include nuclear weapons on the planet.
The security council should be quietly reducing their own nuclear weapons stockpiles and insist on nuclear disarmament by the other nations around the world.
Much of the tension in the world is a result of a small group of Countries which include the US, Russia and China who spread arms and military training around the globe for their own geopolitical self interest. We have to change the entire equation. Shut up and negotiate a future that doesn't include nuclear weapons on the planet.
2
There is something inherently wrong with human DNA. We are self destructive greedy beings who can not seem to ever work for long term survival. One thing is certain, our inevitable extinction will come from our own hands. Nuclear war or pollution, or a little of both. Gods children indeed.
2
Read the 1983 near-death experience (NDE) of Howard Storm in his book "My Descent into Death." Also several TV interviews of (now) Rev. Storm, Lutheran pastor in Ohio, including a video "To Hell and Back" by Dr. Maurice Rawlings, a skeptical cardiologist turned believer based on his patients' NDEs.
The 4 angels Jesus left Howard with said "Your world is ending because it's hopeless." When Howard protested, they said they'd heard it all before, and nothing changed, Earth was irredeemable, and God's decision to end it was irrevocable. "There are many other worlds in the universe," they said. Earth is over, but it takes time to wind it down thru war, famine, disease, and death -- the figurative 4 horsemen of the apocalypse.
The 4 angels Jesus left Howard with said "Your world is ending because it's hopeless." When Howard protested, they said they'd heard it all before, and nothing changed, Earth was irredeemable, and God's decision to end it was irrevocable. "There are many other worlds in the universe," they said. Earth is over, but it takes time to wind it down thru war, famine, disease, and death -- the figurative 4 horsemen of the apocalypse.
Why must we assume that China's efforts to "rein in" North Korea are necessarily failures simply because Kerry characterizes them as such? We're now confronting China in the South China Sea -- why isn't it possible that North Korea's actions align perfectly well with China's, providing them with the opportunity to pressure their client and thereby gin up the leverage to demand a quid pro quo elsewhere?
Economic strangulation, overflights by nuclear-capable B-52s and B-2s, that will show those Commies who's boss in (and over) the world system. "...we cannot continue business as usual." We... this, we... that: everything we, as though holding a God-given mandate to shape and determine Asian and indeed global history, structures, cultures. Kerry comes off poorly here, perhaps as usual, because he is merely the implementer of US hegemonic foreign policy.
Political chutzpah with respect to China and South Korea, enlisting their support for regime change which would destabilize the region as the least of the problems raised, as well as being none of our business (as usual). American dictation of global affairs is coming to an end, either that or the biggest conflagration yet--which the US foreign-policy establishment appears unconsciously to welcome. Thanatosean America on the march, its death wish forcibly extended to all others because, largely, an empty civilization of war, regime change, and unabashed consumerism leaves a moral void in the pit of America's stomach.
China will not consent to go along with the more outrageous "solutions" to North Korea's international conduct, in part because it recognizes that the West is responsible for driving North Korea into isolation. The we shall do this, do that ethos is catching with up America, Obama's Trans-Pacific Partnership to encircle and perhaps eventually dismember (doesn't the US wish!) China not helping matters.
Political chutzpah with respect to China and South Korea, enlisting their support for regime change which would destabilize the region as the least of the problems raised, as well as being none of our business (as usual). American dictation of global affairs is coming to an end, either that or the biggest conflagration yet--which the US foreign-policy establishment appears unconsciously to welcome. Thanatosean America on the march, its death wish forcibly extended to all others because, largely, an empty civilization of war, regime change, and unabashed consumerism leaves a moral void in the pit of America's stomach.
China will not consent to go along with the more outrageous "solutions" to North Korea's international conduct, in part because it recognizes that the West is responsible for driving North Korea into isolation. The we shall do this, do that ethos is catching with up America, Obama's Trans-Pacific Partnership to encircle and perhaps eventually dismember (doesn't the US wish!) China not helping matters.
1
Where was the Obama Administration, and John Kerry, last week when Saudi Arabia executed 47 people? The lack of condemnation, as shown by the rest of the world, is deafening.
A perfect example of the United States inept foreign policy that has plagued it since the end of WWII.
A perfect example of the United States inept foreign policy that has plagued it since the end of WWII.
8
Please don't grind your axes with irrelevant comments. These are two completely different situations, and you only turn off people who aren't reading to find out what your opinions on other subjects may be.
2
The soft approach is a mostly a Washington thing, isn't it
3
You want a quick-trigger response? It seems that anything else is "soft" to critics of the administration.
2
Having China allow political persecution to be a reason for North Koreans entry into China would scare the heck out of North Korea. Their people would escape in droves, and their society may collapse. But there should be a plan in place to support a demilitarized North Korea (unlike what we did in Afghanistan and Iraq).
China holds 1.2 trillion+ in U.S. debt. What exactly do you suppose we should tell them?
4
You tell them that none of that means anything in regards to the safety and security of American citizens, their economy, their governance and their interests.
1
NK is one of the main pretexts for a continuing American military presence in Asia. It is surprising that China has not done more to eliminate that pretext.
2
It is not surprising actually. The dilemma for China is what happens after a regime change. A unified Korea will be dominated by the South Korean government and aligned with the United States, and hence would be a no-go for China.
China would like to keep the Koreas divided. There is no way a unified Korea would be China-aligned. The best outlook for China would be a replacement of the current NK regime by a less confrontational regime, but still an authoritarian one.
China would like to keep the Koreas divided. There is no way a unified Korea would be China-aligned. The best outlook for China would be a replacement of the current NK regime by a less confrontational regime, but still an authoritarian one.
1
Once again, Kerry & the Obama administration engage in their highly counter-productive policy of "Speak Loudly & Carry A Big Stick That Everybody Knows You Won't Use". So Kerry called his Chinese counterpart and read him the riot act and then announced publicly that he'd done so. So now what's supposed to happen? The Chinese will just say "oh, okay, we'll do what you want"?
Why did Kerry issue this public statement instead of conducting a round of talks with the Chinese? The Chinese will doubtless be annoyed to be publicly lectured by Kerry. What purpose did it serve? Is the US willing to take some punitive active towards China if they don't do what we want? Or are we just flapping our gums again? What's the point of lecturing other countries in public when the issues are so complex & sensitive?
Why did Kerry issue this public statement instead of conducting a round of talks with the Chinese? The Chinese will doubtless be annoyed to be publicly lectured by Kerry. What purpose did it serve? Is the US willing to take some punitive active towards China if they don't do what we want? Or are we just flapping our gums again? What's the point of lecturing other countries in public when the issues are so complex & sensitive?
7
It's how diplomacy works.
1
Even China is starting to get tired of North Korea's nonsense. Considering China's crashing stock market and slowing growth, President Xi Jinping definitely didn't need this extra headache.
3
If you are asking China to take a harder stance with NK, then be careful what you ask for. The approach that China believes will best resolve the problem child to their south, could be entirely opposite to an approach the USA would comprehend or be prepared for.
1
China is in scramble mod to keep its economy from tanking.. I doubt if Kerry will get a good audience from the Chinese leadership. Its like going bankrupt and the library calls you to say you have a book over due.
1
The US decades-old self-serving meddling in that part of the world -renewed these last years with the grotesque Asia to pivot related western "free press" propaganda vilifying China on purpose on a weekly basis- is one of the only reasons for China supporting at arm length that NK pariah state buffer zone, not sure that meddling in again (along with the yearly military drills with SK considered a provocation by NK), there scolding China for not halting oil supply -potentially preventing tens of thousands deaths in NK- is exactly a productive and realistic move...
Until the Chinese decide to take action that will actually hurt North Korea, all of this is just so much smoke and mirrors. US sanctions, UN Resolutions, etc, etc have no effect. The only people who have influence are the Chinese and they like having a rogue state as their neighbor, it deflects attention away from them. As long as China holds the lease without pulling too hard, Kim will snarl and snap like a small dog. The only problem of course is this small dog has nuclear weapons.
3
Oh, spare me. John Kerry is trying to look like a tough guy. That alone would be merely risible, but he is so intent on the posturing that he doesn't see that he is walking right into a set-up. China and North Korea are playing the old routine of "Good Cop/Bad Cop" -- a variation of it, actually, which might better be described as "Nice Mugger/Mean Mugger."
The key point to remember is that China is not about to give Kerry anything without something in return. China will agree to spank the fat kid -- but can China do that, really? In return, The United States will be expected to look the other way as China continues to build artificial islands, and claim territorial waters all the way to Australia.
Of course China's neighbors will start to push back. Vietnam, for one, has a solid record of defending its sovereign territory. And just when we thought the "Trouble Spot du Jour" was the Middle East. Oh, my.
The key point to remember is that China is not about to give Kerry anything without something in return. China will agree to spank the fat kid -- but can China do that, really? In return, The United States will be expected to look the other way as China continues to build artificial islands, and claim territorial waters all the way to Australia.
Of course China's neighbors will start to push back. Vietnam, for one, has a solid record of defending its sovereign territory. And just when we thought the "Trouble Spot du Jour" was the Middle East. Oh, my.
2
Destabilize a country known to have nuclear warheads? Some of you are even crazier than the North Korean leadership. Can you imagine what would happen if even some of that fissile material fell into the wrong hands? Or how the North Koreans would react if they started to believe there was no way out?
The North Koreans have demonstrated they are willing to go to war simply to ensure that the Kim family hold on power is not threatened by shelling the South Koreans with mortars during the early days of Kim Jong Eun's succession. They are willing to carry out acts of war by hacking a public corporation because an embarrassing film was made about its leader. Do you really think that cutting off its oil supply or suffocating its trade will lead to a benign outcome?
On North Korea, Americans love to blame China for its inaction. But what can they really do when Beijing is well within range of Pyongyang's nuclear arsenal? And if you think that China would have a problem today with having the South Koreans as neighbors, then you are clueless about East Asian political dynamics.
Before we do anything, let us try to understand why the North Koreans detonated a nuclear device. Until we understand the cause of the breach, the actions we take will not only likely be futile it may even lead to dangerous outcomes.
The North Koreans have demonstrated they are willing to go to war simply to ensure that the Kim family hold on power is not threatened by shelling the South Koreans with mortars during the early days of Kim Jong Eun's succession. They are willing to carry out acts of war by hacking a public corporation because an embarrassing film was made about its leader. Do you really think that cutting off its oil supply or suffocating its trade will lead to a benign outcome?
On North Korea, Americans love to blame China for its inaction. But what can they really do when Beijing is well within range of Pyongyang's nuclear arsenal? And if you think that China would have a problem today with having the South Koreans as neighbors, then you are clueless about East Asian political dynamics.
Before we do anything, let us try to understand why the North Koreans detonated a nuclear device. Until we understand the cause of the breach, the actions we take will not only likely be futile it may even lead to dangerous outcomes.
1
Do not despair. Once Donal Trump gets elected to be the President of the United States, China will do whatever he says, and Mexico will pay for it.
8
The Chinese are already volunteering to build Donald's wall. They've had plenty of experience doing that.
2
When is the U.S. going to realize that Kerry's approach is EXACTLY WRONG for the situation? The North Koreans are a Cold War-era proxy for China, nothing more, nothing less. The Chinese whisper to Kim Jung Un and he tweaks Uncle Sam's nose. Then John Kerry comes running to Beijing to plead for them to stop him. Kerry's begging feeds precisely into both of our opponents' egos and has, and will, accomplish nothing, as Xi Jinping simply shrugs that there's nothing he can do with an unruly stepchild.
What SHOULD the U.S. do? The same thing any parent would do with an obstreperous child seeking attention: ignore him.
What SHOULD the U.S. do? The same thing any parent would do with an obstreperous child seeking attention: ignore him.
Inasmuch as North Korea exports nuclear know how to rogue states, your suggestion to simply ignore them is inadvisable. Fortunately, Israel destroyed a NK-built reactor in Syria in 2008 during a surgical airstrike. The prospect of Assad--or ISIS if he's toppled--with a nuclear bomb or materiel is haunting.
5
Oh, sure. After building artificial islands despite international laws against doing so, and declaring the airspace over them to be restricted, and having collisions with Vietnamese Navy patrol boats, and just announcing a 2nd aircrat carrier for its expansionist navy, and opening a logistics facility near Ethiopia - its first ever - the People's Army of China is all ears for hortatory pronunciamentos from Obama's secretary of state. Get your Pyongyang pit bull back on the porch, Beijing! Fat chance.
3
What if the U.S. encouraged China to depose North Korea's leadership and install a more cooperative government; an arrangement similar to an Eastern Bloc state in the former Soviet Union? Although distasteful to everyone, wouldn't it be an improvement over the current situation?
2
And how exactly would we do that?
Just like we are encouraging Russia to leave the Ukraine alone?
Or how we are encouraging whomever the "Syrians" now are to get rid of Assad?
Just like we are encouraging Russia to leave the Ukraine alone?
Or how we are encouraging whomever the "Syrians" now are to get rid of Assad?
The North Korean Government retains power because it is able to keep the vast majority of it's citizens completely cut off from and ignorant of the rest of the world. We now have the technology to send nightly swarms of small autonomous drones into that country programmed to distribute literature, as well as small audio and video devices, which through person to person sharing, could open the eyes of thousands of North Koreans to their leaders' lies and generate the critical mass of dissent required for change. This would be much more effective than a few loudspeakers along the DMZ.
Being stationed in South Korea since 2012 to maintain peace, I must confess the Chinese have made it very hard to accomplish that. When our THAAD missile system was going to replace our old Patriot misses, China took strong opposition siding with the North Koreans on the issue and issuing a statement to President Park Guen-Hye on "Be careful which side of the coin you pick".
Just as this article correctly states, most of the oil imports coming to the North Koreans is directly from China which on the world stage is condemning its nuclear tests but has always been made important contributions to its state survival since its intervention during the Korean War.
We must be aware that the Chinese are very hidden and are contribuiting to the peninsula's instability. Kim Jong-Un would never have the courage to EVEN look up the definition of nuclear weapons without China backing his regime.
Just as this article correctly states, most of the oil imports coming to the North Koreans is directly from China which on the world stage is condemning its nuclear tests but has always been made important contributions to its state survival since its intervention during the Korean War.
We must be aware that the Chinese are very hidden and are contribuiting to the peninsula's instability. Kim Jong-Un would never have the courage to EVEN look up the definition of nuclear weapons without China backing his regime.
2
NK military is now capable to lay nuclear checkmate on China's major population centers. China has been neutralized just like in Goethe's poem of "The Sorcerer's Apprentice". Poor Kerry, who would not see the facts of the matter.
1
Facts are, the United States is the only country whoever used weapons of mass destruction on innocent civilians. It's hard for us to preach to other countries when we already committed mass murder. Call it war, self defense, retaliation, I get it. Our hands are not clean. North Korea should never get their hands on nukes. They have an unstable regime, their people starve year after year and they are treated worse than animals. China knows them better, probably more than anyone. The.
Chinese would never allow them to have wmd. Although it is prudent to watch them closely.
Chinese would never allow them to have wmd. Although it is prudent to watch them closely.
1
Despite international isolation and sanctions for being reckless and defiant of internationa law and norms if, North Korea survives as a state and society today, it's because of China's material, moral, and political support, without which it might crumble any time. Since North Korea, with its provocative militaristic and aggressive and blackmailing nuclear acts has become a threat to global peace and stability, its incumbent on China being the main benefactor of North Korea to restrain it from crossing the threshold. This could be more effective with the UN led international effort that would really bolster the Chinese initiative in this direction. Even from China's own stability and security point of view, it's an imperative to restrain North Korea, as it has virtually become a failed state, which is a threat to all, native society, neighbouring countries, and the international community.
4
I believe that China continues to be North Korea's 'benefactor' because they don't want the North Koreans pouring into China. From everything I've read about life in North Korea, the Chinese aren't really 'helping' most North Koreans.
1
I am not a fan of the CCP. But why are we telling them to get tough with North Korea? They can reciprocate by telling us to get tough with Israel.
8
I am sure China will do what we tell them to do!
4
Really? How can we tell another country what to do when we owe them money?
1
Very easy. They didn't loan us money, they bought t-bills in an open auction and there is a very liquid market for them to sell them, which they have been doing a lot of lately because of their capital outflows. No problem, plenty of other buyers. Our debt is some of the best. Read the news! Figure out what's going on.
Second point, if we tariff them like they did us, we wouldn't have such a trade deficit with them.
Second point, if we tariff them like they did us, we wouldn't have such a trade deficit with them.
Instead of reacting to nKorean provocations and the on-going development of nuclear weapons and potential ICMB missile capabilities, the U.S. needs to respond.
Reactions are reactive, prompted, lesser. Responses are carefully crafted, planned, effect outcomes. The key to nKorea's leadership suriviving in its dank, dark and dismal little despot kingdom oppressing its people is Chinese oil and Chinese food and other trade.
Unless the geo-political calculus for China is altered, the long-term one where the Chinese leaders live and the one American leaders seem to deny or ignore usually, this circus will go on ad infinitum. And it might turn out very badly for South Korea, Japan and the U.S.
Forget about B-2 Bomber overflights, aircraft carriers coming menacingly close to nKorea, anti-missile deployments, and more Marines being sent and staged in sKorea and Okinawa. The key is oil and China.
How we get there, I confess I do not have the answer, but all else is just drama, false hope and wasted resources. Come up with a strategy, and do so first and fast. We don't seem to have a strategy. Strategy, not being just "strategic patience" - - but what is the endstate we want and can hope for, what resources are required to get there, and then act.
Otherwise, as the Irish would say, we are at nothing. China uses its "string of pearls" strategy to this day, increasing its free-trade relations with sKorea, and then leveraging that trade to ends. Can't we do the same?
Reactions are reactive, prompted, lesser. Responses are carefully crafted, planned, effect outcomes. The key to nKorea's leadership suriviving in its dank, dark and dismal little despot kingdom oppressing its people is Chinese oil and Chinese food and other trade.
Unless the geo-political calculus for China is altered, the long-term one where the Chinese leaders live and the one American leaders seem to deny or ignore usually, this circus will go on ad infinitum. And it might turn out very badly for South Korea, Japan and the U.S.
Forget about B-2 Bomber overflights, aircraft carriers coming menacingly close to nKorea, anti-missile deployments, and more Marines being sent and staged in sKorea and Okinawa. The key is oil and China.
How we get there, I confess I do not have the answer, but all else is just drama, false hope and wasted resources. Come up with a strategy, and do so first and fast. We don't seem to have a strategy. Strategy, not being just "strategic patience" - - but what is the endstate we want and can hope for, what resources are required to get there, and then act.
Otherwise, as the Irish would say, we are at nothing. China uses its "string of pearls" strategy to this day, increasing its free-trade relations with sKorea, and then leveraging that trade to ends. Can't we do the same?
3
Oh come on. Just shut down their banks, their internet, ban their ships from entering world ports, and so on. China isn't launching an attack anytime soon over NK. If NK destabilizes China will get the blowback - see what happened in Iraq for further details on the futility of toppling dictators without an alternative.
Rgrds-Ross
Rgrds-Ross
1
Seoul has been agitating for a few years now for greater independence to defend itself. Pentagon keeps them on a short leash, while Pyongyang makes hay on the peninsula. It's as if we told the pesh merga we don't need their help against ISISI, we'll continue to spin wheels on our own. In all prior administrations, a US Navy carrier would be steaming off the Korean peninsula by now, projecting power. Drones can't do it all.
I suspect telling China what to do will be about as productive as pushing a rope .....
Mr. Kerry acts as if he is in full understanding of the current state of affairs regarding the DPRK.
He is not, simply because he has not directly talked with the DPRK and has not talked outside of the ongoing poker game he is stuck inside of; that which we call US Foreign Policy, et al.
Perhaps something new that does not directly involve the PRC could be useful?
He is not, simply because he has not directly talked with the DPRK and has not talked outside of the ongoing poker game he is stuck inside of; that which we call US Foreign Policy, et al.
Perhaps something new that does not directly involve the PRC could be useful?
1
"...many of [the sanctions] China and Russia, and perhaps other nations, will almost certainly seek to water down."
why russia? even if china can not be convinced to take a hard line against the DPRK, maybe russia can, or at least convinced not to object to the hard line that the US seeks. i am waiting impatiently for a press release from the kremlin.
also, maybe the ROK can seek increased trade with russia, as it has sought increased trade with china. maybe visa-free tourist travel for russians? backdoor economic isolation of the DPRK through increased economic cooperation with its free market rival.
why russia? even if china can not be convinced to take a hard line against the DPRK, maybe russia can, or at least convinced not to object to the hard line that the US seeks. i am waiting impatiently for a press release from the kremlin.
also, maybe the ROK can seek increased trade with russia, as it has sought increased trade with china. maybe visa-free tourist travel for russians? backdoor economic isolation of the DPRK through increased economic cooperation with its free market rival.
1
I wonder what the U.S. response would be if Saudi Arabia began developing nuclear weapons (a threat in the news recently) and China demanded that the U.S. sanction Saudi Arabia?
Or Israel, who has nuclear weapons.
China doesn't want North Korea to possess nuclear weapons, just like John Kennedy fought Israel tooth-and-nail over their nuclear development. I agree with Kerry that China needs to get tougher with the Kim regime, but the U.S. needs to get tougher with our allies, including pushing for the "Nuclear Free Middle East Treaty" sponsored by the usual Scandinavian countries, and supported by Iran, but ignored entirely in the U.S..
Or Israel, who has nuclear weapons.
China doesn't want North Korea to possess nuclear weapons, just like John Kennedy fought Israel tooth-and-nail over their nuclear development. I agree with Kerry that China needs to get tougher with the Kim regime, but the U.S. needs to get tougher with our allies, including pushing for the "Nuclear Free Middle East Treaty" sponsored by the usual Scandinavian countries, and supported by Iran, but ignored entirely in the U.S..
7
North Korea knows the US will never nuke them, because of radioactive fallout on our friends in South Korea, right next door.
The US needs to take a lot harder line against China and North Korea. We should significantly ramp up military presence near NK, perhaps even occupy and militarize an island near NK, similar to what China is doing near the Phillippines. This will send a threatening message to China that they need to put leash on their ally or else we will maintain a threatening military posture in their backyard. At the same time, we should use military threats to get meaningful sanctions passed through the UN.
Precisely what "military threats" are you suggesting?
Keep in mind the millions of citizens in the city of Seoul who live within range
of conventional artillery, let alone nukes.
Keep in mind the millions of citizens in the city of Seoul who live within range
of conventional artillery, let alone nukes.
2
Secretary Kerry is advising or telling China what to do. The background reason being that Maoist China supported North Korea way back in a last century war of the 1950s. Indeed China may even own the problem but only if China is truly a world citizen will they commit. Otherwise it again falls to US, South Korea, Japan and the UN to produce sanctions for they are the perceived enemies of NK. China does not see itself as target or endangered.
It will be interesting to see if China really acts productively and takes responsible leadership of the issue. On the other hand traditional realpolitik suggests advantages to keeping things on a low boil in case they need a distraction. Let's watch.
It will be interesting to see if China really acts productively and takes responsible leadership of the issue. On the other hand traditional realpolitik suggests advantages to keeping things on a low boil in case they need a distraction. Let's watch.
1
North Korea may be odious, but given President Obama's pivot to Asia and its not so subtle policy to contain China (if not worse, i.e. treat China as an enemy and militarily confront it), I doubt China will be strategically induced to rein in its northeastern neighbor. For big powers, every move and counter move will be inevitably viewed in a balanced perspective. In that sense, President Obama is miserably lacking in strategic vision: he cannot make enemies with both Russia and China simultaneously. Idealism is good, but naivete in international relationship will lead to many unforeseen consequences. A case in point, a H-bomb capable North Korea. Anybody miss Dr. Kissinger?
2
What do you mean, if not worse??? Who is confronting whom, anyway?
Sanctions against North Korea will impose greater economic privation upon a people subject to great privation already. Sanctions were effective in Iran because the government does not ignore the well being of the population. Kim's concern for public well being appears to be minimal. If the Chinese imposed strict sanctions, their effect would likely be inhumane. I prefer the present situation to what Kerry is asking for.
1
The World has moved ahead from the 80s and the 90s. US will do well to stop giving warnings to other countries, for the old motto of -- Do what We Say and Don't Ever Do What We Do! is no more valid! US must, as is said, walk the walk to be in a position to pontificate to others!
5
"[T]he North Korean regime could collapse — putting South Korea, and its American ally, on their [China's] border." Why don't we and South Korea pledge that if the North Korean regime collapses, North Korea will be a demilitarized zone? Then China will have nothing to worry about and they can allow the regime to collapse — in fact they can help it along. North Korea is nothing but a burden to China.
8
We can say that North Korea will remain demilitarized, but China won't believe it.
All they have to do is look at how NATO expanded to Russia's borders. Russia claims that the West promised that NATO would not be expanded beyond Germany.
Russia may very well be mistaken and there was no promise. It really doesn't matter. The expansion happened and that is what China will remember.
All they have to do is look at how NATO expanded to Russia's borders. Russia claims that the West promised that NATO would not be expanded beyond Germany.
Russia may very well be mistaken and there was no promise. It really doesn't matter. The expansion happened and that is what China will remember.
1
China will not allow the NK regime to collapse, because then they would have to absorb the refugees that would migrate to China. Yes, some would migrate to South Korea.
When are we going to realize that China will NEVER help us regarding North Korea?
It is in China's interest for this regime to survive as a satellite buffer state.
It is in China's interest for this regime to survive as a satellite buffer state.
2
There's little point in punishments that affect the N. Korean population generally, as they have no input. It's those punishments that hit their 1% that mean anything.
The problem is that any actions that affect OUR 1% - which includes any pressure whatsoever on China, so intimately tied up with our investor class - are a non-starter.
The problem is that any actions that affect OUR 1% - which includes any pressure whatsoever on China, so intimately tied up with our investor class - are a non-starter.
2
If China did what Kerry asked there would be mass starvation in North Korea and millions of refugees all wanting to move to China.
I suspect China wants to keep the North Koreans in North Korea.
North Korea is economically dependent on China for its basic necessities like energy and food which dominate the trade between the two countries. China provides North Korea with 70 percent of its food and about 70-80 percent of the country’s fuel supplies.
China also purchases 90% of North Korean exports.
This is "Business as usual".
Without “Business as usual” you would have a human catastrophe for which China would ultimately be blamed. A human catastrophe in North Korea could also possibly lead to war in the region.
In any case you can be absolutely certain that the North Korean ruling class and tiny middle class will not suffer regardless of what Kerry proposes.
I suspect China wants to keep the North Koreans in North Korea.
North Korea is economically dependent on China for its basic necessities like energy and food which dominate the trade between the two countries. China provides North Korea with 70 percent of its food and about 70-80 percent of the country’s fuel supplies.
China also purchases 90% of North Korean exports.
This is "Business as usual".
Without “Business as usual” you would have a human catastrophe for which China would ultimately be blamed. A human catastrophe in North Korea could also possibly lead to war in the region.
In any case you can be absolutely certain that the North Korean ruling class and tiny middle class will not suffer regardless of what Kerry proposes.
4
Given China's domestic economic woes, I doubt Kerry will find a particularly interested or enthusiastic audience.
2
East Germany folded when its citizens were able to flee the country in large numbers. North Korea's citizens are eager to escape. The United States should tell China that it will pay to transport North Korean escapees to South Korea. The United States should agree to pay South Korea for the enormous expenses involved in accepted a sudden increase in population.
Paying these expenses would be much cheaper than dealing with the problems caused by a nuclear started or abetted by North Korea.
If North Korea collapsed as a result of an exodus of its people, the whole world would be better off.
Paying these expenses would be much cheaper than dealing with the problems caused by a nuclear started or abetted by North Korea.
If North Korea collapsed as a result of an exodus of its people, the whole world would be better off.
Based upon my understanding of some exchanges among Chinese and U.S. diplomatic personnel in the wake of the DPRK's apparent sinking of the Cheonan (a Republic of Korea military vessel), I believe the Chinese will again hasten to point out, "The DPRK is our Israel."
1
Even though they may not have a hydrogen bomb or miniaturized nuclear bomb perfected just yet, it is a certain eventuality. North Korea has proven that it is determined to have these weapons—and China has proven that it is not willing to stop them from advancing down this path. It is time to hold China accountable for propping up this odious regime.
1
Response from Beijing:
United States mind your own business.
The so called leader of the free world needs to realize it is not the leader of the free world. The US lost credibility thanks to its self centered foreign policy. Most notably, starting wars in Iraq, with false evidence about WMD and convincing the UN, and US allies, such WMD actually exited. It has never been found.
North Korea (DPRK) is China's problem. China created the problem by supporting Kim il-Song. during the Korea War. The allies were winning the war, before China stepped in and created a stalemate. China has been the benefactor of the DPRK ever since. Its China's Frankenstein monster.
In recent months the DPRK has decided that even China can no longer exert control. The DPRK leadership has effectively become like a run away nuclear reactor; and, China cannot re-insert the control rod.
So, China's options:
1. Send in special ops and kill the leadership.
2. Impose sanctions.
3. Do nothing.
Before China does anything, they have to fortify a 1200 mile long border to prevent a rush of 20 million North Koreans rushing to get out. One of the main reasons China has handled the DPRK with kit gloves.
What China does not need is Washington injecting itself into the problem. The DPRK sees teh Us and Japan as its mortal enemies. China cannot afford having US involvement else risking the DPRK turning on China, further. If that happens, the there is no way to control the DPRK but by massive military action.
United States mind your own business.
The so called leader of the free world needs to realize it is not the leader of the free world. The US lost credibility thanks to its self centered foreign policy. Most notably, starting wars in Iraq, with false evidence about WMD and convincing the UN, and US allies, such WMD actually exited. It has never been found.
North Korea (DPRK) is China's problem. China created the problem by supporting Kim il-Song. during the Korea War. The allies were winning the war, before China stepped in and created a stalemate. China has been the benefactor of the DPRK ever since. Its China's Frankenstein monster.
In recent months the DPRK has decided that even China can no longer exert control. The DPRK leadership has effectively become like a run away nuclear reactor; and, China cannot re-insert the control rod.
So, China's options:
1. Send in special ops and kill the leadership.
2. Impose sanctions.
3. Do nothing.
Before China does anything, they have to fortify a 1200 mile long border to prevent a rush of 20 million North Koreans rushing to get out. One of the main reasons China has handled the DPRK with kit gloves.
What China does not need is Washington injecting itself into the problem. The DPRK sees teh Us and Japan as its mortal enemies. China cannot afford having US involvement else risking the DPRK turning on China, further. If that happens, the there is no way to control the DPRK but by massive military action.
2
Yes the DPRK is China's making, and "Frankenstein". But China, like every other country in the world has made ONE BIG INTERNATIONAL mistake. Telling the US, or Russia, South Korea and Japan to leave it up to China to resolve has been and will continue to be wishful thinking. It is obvious that China has the keys to resolve this, so all countries must put massive pressure on China to do so. It is amazing to think that China has allowed an Atomic Bomb to be made and detonated within a 100 miles from its border, but a H-bomb is crazy stuff. It is a wonder who is more insane? The DPRK or China
1
Both. No one ever said Stalinism, Leninism, Juche, Maoism ever made any sense. Certainly not what Marx or Engels had in mind.
Curiously, China now has 'plausible deniability' if an attack is made on any of its pro-US neighbours. They can say "We didn't give the bomb to NK, and if NK wants to use it, what could we have done to stop it? Invade NK? Really?" No. Can you imagine the cries of 'imperialism!' (which they've avoided with something bordering on PR genius so far, even after the Tibet invasion) if they did anything to undermine their attack-dog state? The world is heading into dark corners because of the determination of the West to open China up and the determination of China to only open up when it was to its advantage over the West. It has been feeding its attack dog.
Oh, tough talk by Mr. Kerry. I wonder if the Chinese will listen. I find it hard to believe that they will suddenly be inclined to listen after supporting North Korea for all these years. Surely, this lastest event is no surprise to the Chinese since they all but encouraged this line of behavior. This could be just another expample of our terrible foreign policy actions over the years. I am no Trump fan but his call to "Make America Great Again" must resonate in times like this. Who can deny that his popularity is a reaction to all the failures of our past governments in so many areas.
"Our terrible foreign policy?" Maybe you missed the last 50 years! Trump? He was NOTHING without his father's money, and he has failed at everything he has tried. Maybe you missed all of his bankruptcies, he owns nothing more than his name. Great businessman!
There's only one effective way to deal with the world's largest prison camp: shut it down. Unhappily, that would need to come about through joint military action by the U.S. and all of the DRK's neighbors including Russia and China, and those latter two nations appear to be more concerned by the prospect of the North imploding than by the potential for nuclear catastrophe. In light of this unfortunate situation the U.S. should simply pretend that the Country of Kims no longer exists- ignore the threats, continue the embargo and otherwise take care not to needlessly inflame the situation. Sign off after one unqualified warning (as much to China as to the PDK): a single use of a nuclear weapon or an unprovoked attack on Seoul will bring about the immediate termination of Kim's regime. And this time neither Putin nor Xi will be permitted to erase our red line.
4
North Korea has huge mineral deposits
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mining_in_North_Korea
It is simply a supply of resources to China.
China may scream about NK and its nuclear experimentation - but it won't do anything substantive until it can replace the minerals and coal it derives from NK - at a cost well below global values.
That is the real game here.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mining_in_North_Korea
It is simply a supply of resources to China.
China may scream about NK and its nuclear experimentation - but it won't do anything substantive until it can replace the minerals and coal it derives from NK - at a cost well below global values.
That is the real game here.
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I was wondering just what the Chinese had in this game. Thank you for the information. "Nobody does nothing for free." Unfortunately (we'll maybe some people or countries do, but not the U.S., Russia or China).
The message to China has got to be "This is your problem. Left unsolved, it will eventually become ours. Neither of us wants that."
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China won't appreciate the advice, especially since they want to be THE regional control power.. They need to understand that to be the power is also to exert REAL control, not platitudes. Still, we are likely to be the very last ones China will listen to in this area.
Ironically, China is such an important part of the North's economy and basic survival... they have real leverage, if they will only use it. It is most certainly not in China's interest to have nuclear weapons let loose in their immediate area. It's actually far more immediately dangerous for them then for us.
Ironically, China is such an important part of the North's economy and basic survival... they have real leverage, if they will only use it. It is most certainly not in China's interest to have nuclear weapons let loose in their immediate area. It's actually far more immediately dangerous for them then for us.
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What has North Korea been holding that has kept China of of them for the last 60 years?
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1946 from my standpoint was the only year in this century that the U.S. was on top of heap. Before and after, U.S. exceptionalism could not not be backed by power.By '47 the Soviets had the bomb and the rest is history as they say. Today and going forward, the U.S. just one among many nations and Americans will need to adjust to that reality. The best the U.S. can do is to be able to defend itself without endless wars and spending national treasure overseas when our infrastructure is in trouble and when poverty and when subtle discrimination still exists, not to mention inadequate schools.
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In related news, China tells the US that its "soft approach" to Israel and the Israeli nuclear program has failed.
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Israel is an ally among enemy nations. Period.
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I had no idea that Israel was vocally threatening China with nuclear destruction, like North Korea is currently doing to the US. Can't you tell the difference between Israel and North Korea?
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The long term appeasement that went on concerning North Korea is what has caused this problem. Years ago we gave them oil, food, medicine all the necessities of life while they labored in secret to deceive the world.
Because the rest of the world gave them everything they needed under the pretext of charity they were able to use their own scarce resources to build these complex machines of death.
No more appeasement. Not today - not tomorrow.
Because the rest of the world gave them everything they needed under the pretext of charity they were able to use their own scarce resources to build these complex machines of death.
No more appeasement. Not today - not tomorrow.
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I cringed when I read this headline because this is going to get embarrassing really fast for us. We have no leverage with North Korea or China. China already gets everything it wants from us. They manufacture 90% of our hard goods, are our largest creditor, and they build military bases on Philippine atolls in the western Pacific with impunity because Obama has neutered the 7th Fleet and they have seen how he draws his "red lines". The Chinese will laugh in John Kerry's face as he delivers this warning.
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This is exactly what I was thinking: maybe we should reconsider letting the Chinese make pretty much everything we use since it just helps them gain economic power which leads to diplomatic and military power. The Chinese government is probably happy to have North Korea around for a variety of reasons including it makes them look like saints and gives them some leverage with us since they are North Korea's only major ally (actually I'm not sure where Russia stands on this issue they might be okay with North Korea for the same reasons the Chinese are).
1
It needs to be noted what lurks in the apparently odd relationship between China and NK, which is quite different from the latter's relationship with Russia. Responding to the plight of their homeland under Japanese occupation, some Korean socialists behaved like a bellwether of PRC's struggle to its supremacy in the mainland by even critically contributing to its survival through its greatest peril. This is immanent in the moral hazard that has been betrayed in the PRC's Communist leadership. It will take something extraordinary for the PRC power elites to be freed from such a mental straight jacket and behave more like a big country. Perhaps, greed would have to prevail among the PRC populace to put this sense of indebtedness behind.
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I feel for John Boy, I fear he believes in the Easter Bunny.
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And American foreign policy works? Look at the Middle East. You tell them John!
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China will take few actions that reduce north Korea's usefulness as an irritant to its neighbors. they probably see it as an excuse for increasing their influence over other nations. China is a police state with strongvterritoriak ambitions. a north Korean threat to Taiwan, for instance, makes it easier to take Taiwan over and take harsh actions against the Taiwanese. China doesn't care who else north Korea kills.
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I'm sure that Wang Yi and the Communist government of China trembled upon hearing Secretary Kerry's admonitions.
Ha ha.
Ha ha.
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It's really about time for North Korea to be reintegrated into the global community.
China is the only player who can make that happen.
China is the only player who can make that happen.
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Those are excellent sticks with which to beat North Korea. What sticks are we willing to use on China?
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under Obama every region is in worse shape now than when he took over...
don't tell me about Bush-judge Mr. Obama objectively.
don't tell me about Bush-judge Mr. Obama objectively.
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N Korea first detonated during W's watch. What exactly did he do to stop them? He called them names, axis of evil and evil doers. Now that was effective leadership.
The Obama administration warned China on Thursday that its approach to reining in North Korea had “not worked” -
China could have pointed fingers at the U.S. that its approach to sanction the N.K. had "not worked". I do not see China has the ability either to block the U.S. to hold military exercises in that region or block the N.K. to show its power. I don't see much China can do even the U.S. and N.K. lob A-bombs at each other.
If you have all the battleships and and carriers having drills over there every once a while, what do you expect the poor N.K. to do? The progressive advancement in nuclear bombs may be the only option for the North. the Six-party negotiation should be the only solution if you want to reduce the tension.
China could have pointed fingers at the U.S. that its approach to sanction the N.K. had "not worked". I do not see China has the ability either to block the U.S. to hold military exercises in that region or block the N.K. to show its power. I don't see much China can do even the U.S. and N.K. lob A-bombs at each other.
If you have all the battleships and and carriers having drills over there every once a while, what do you expect the poor N.K. to do? The progressive advancement in nuclear bombs may be the only option for the North. the Six-party negotiation should be the only solution if you want to reduce the tension.
4
This should make the life of the peasant living in North Korea ... miserable. Maybe working to make life a little more miserable for the Chinese might be in order, but our capitalists (and politicians) have limited our options there. We can't walk around barefoot over here, in second hand clothes and without cellphones.
Better we should penalize the Korean peasant.
Better we should penalize the Korean peasant.
1
It never ceases to amaze me, how arrogant our government has become, that we can go tell another country how to behave with other countries.
Do we own China? nope. So why do we think we can go tell them how to act?
Do we own China? nope. So why do we think we can go tell them how to act?
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Huh. Isn't that what Trump said? "China has … total control over North Korea," Trump said. "And China should solve that problem. And if they don't solve the problem, we should make trade very difficult for China."
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Well Kerry if you are going to tell China must get tough with NK. Why dont you look at yourself in the mirror and get tough with the Saudis and stop business as usual with them too because right now you look like a hypocrite.
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@ Jesse Marioneaux,
You wrote, "Why dont you look at yourself in the mirror and get tough with the Saudis and stop business as usual with them too."
You are appealing to hypocrisy, which is a logical fallacy.
Secondly, the Saudis are not detonating nuclear weapons within 50 miles of the United States border.
Masallamah.
You wrote, "Why dont you look at yourself in the mirror and get tough with the Saudis and stop business as usual with them too."
You are appealing to hypocrisy, which is a logical fallacy.
Secondly, the Saudis are not detonating nuclear weapons within 50 miles of the United States border.
Masallamah.
2
China does not take kindly to advise provided by the U.S. or anyone else. They will take action when they decide it is in the best interest to do so. I can't say that we are different.
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You would think, hope, that Kerry would be a little more subtle in his approach. Instead, all he will do with such accusing ultimatives will be to provoke the opposite reaction from China. He should know better by now.
So big hat no cattle Kerry, speaking for the Obama policyless foreign policy team, fresh from triumphs of empty words on Ukraine, Syria, Libya, Afghanistan, Iran, Daesh, Saudia Arabia, Egypt, Turkey, lectures China.
Well, when the US is ignored, again, as the younguns say, whaddayagonnadoabout it? I know! Talk of Obama's steady and sure hand in a Pravda style campaign, too embarrassing even for the NYT, as with Ramadi, where the WH shilling was so embarrassing and empty and over the top the NYT actually reported on it.
Well, when the US is ignored, again, as the younguns say, whaddayagonnadoabout it? I know! Talk of Obama's steady and sure hand in a Pravda style campaign, too embarrassing even for the NYT, as with Ramadi, where the WH shilling was so embarrassing and empty and over the top the NYT actually reported on it.
15
Neither the United States, China nor the international community has either the power or the moral authority to affect Kim or those around him. A firm, complete isolation of North Korea does not promise to stir the oppressed people to stand against its massively armed government. A North Korea in its death rattle might strike out with nuclear means. Perhaps the window of opportunity has totally closed because of the continuing failure to confront the issue.
1
North Korea only exists due to Chinese support, yet for decades China has reaped the geopolitical benefits of a divided Korean peninsula, while bearing little cost. The United States has to change the calculus for the Chinese, and putting public pressure on the Chinese is an important step.
Unspoken by Secretary Kerry, but likely conveyed privately, is that North Korea's continued nuclear and missile program, will force the Japanese and South Koreans to pursue their own nuclear and missile programs, which the U.S. will tacitly support. It will also mean that the Japanese and South Koreans will invest more in their conventional forces through U.S. arms sales. In other words, China's northwestern neighbors will increase their military strength vis-a-vis North Korea, but China as well. That changes the geopolitical costs to China, and should be a strong inducement to agree to some of the U.S.'s desired sanctions.
Unspoken by Secretary Kerry, but likely conveyed privately, is that North Korea's continued nuclear and missile program, will force the Japanese and South Koreans to pursue their own nuclear and missile programs, which the U.S. will tacitly support. It will also mean that the Japanese and South Koreans will invest more in their conventional forces through U.S. arms sales. In other words, China's northwestern neighbors will increase their military strength vis-a-vis North Korea, but China as well. That changes the geopolitical costs to China, and should be a strong inducement to agree to some of the U.S.'s desired sanctions.
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Understood. But it's not going to work. Rather, it will goad China into buttressing NK more. One possible upshot from your projected scenario is that PRC will support NK so much more that it will be able to incorporate the rogue state in the end and thereby stabilize the mainland perimeter. Perhaps, this in your mind?
1
China needs to get the message that if they are unwilling to take serious steps toward removing nuclear weapons from North Korea, then they should have no expectation that the U.S. will be able to prevent Japan and South Korea from also acquiring nuclear weapons.
15
Because nothing says SAFETY better than more nukes.
https://emcphd.wordpress.com
https://emcphd.wordpress.com
"The Obama administration warned China on Thursday that its approach to reining in North Korea had “not worked” "
That is certainly true of the US approach too.
And if China won't do as we tell them, what are we going to do? Nothing. That is hot air, meant to divert attention.
If the US means to do something about NK, it will have to do it, not address someone else with empty rhetoric.
Do what? Sit down with NK and deal. That will be painful, because we had a deal and Bush cheated on it and then backed out altogether, and now our position is much worse.
That happens when you cheat, and Bush did. Republicans were very proud of that at the time. See John Bolton's comments, UN Ambassdor picked by those incompetents.
Of course NK is nasty too. That is why it is a problem. That does not mean we can ignore good sense, cheat and lie, and that will work to solve our problem.
Condemn NK? Sure. But who has thousands of weapons and can deliver them, and who backed out of the deal they had to avoid this? Who blusters and bluffs for decades and does nothing but ask China to bail us out?
That is certainly true of the US approach too.
And if China won't do as we tell them, what are we going to do? Nothing. That is hot air, meant to divert attention.
If the US means to do something about NK, it will have to do it, not address someone else with empty rhetoric.
Do what? Sit down with NK and deal. That will be painful, because we had a deal and Bush cheated on it and then backed out altogether, and now our position is much worse.
That happens when you cheat, and Bush did. Republicans were very proud of that at the time. See John Bolton's comments, UN Ambassdor picked by those incompetents.
Of course NK is nasty too. That is why it is a problem. That does not mean we can ignore good sense, cheat and lie, and that will work to solve our problem.
Condemn NK? Sure. But who has thousands of weapons and can deliver them, and who backed out of the deal they had to avoid this? Who blusters and bluffs for decades and does nothing but ask China to bail us out?
19
"Do what? Sit down with NK and deal. That will be painful, because we had a deal and Bush cheated on it and then backed out altogether, and now our position is much worse. "
Keep saying that over and over and you might learn to ignore NK's cheating on the deal since day one. We are seeing the fruits of the Clinton-Carter-Laney axis negotiations.
Joel Wit ”we did know about the DPRK cheating on the highly-enriched uranium front starting in 1998 and had a strategy for dealing with it, namely to confront the DPRK and to use the leverage provided by the Agreed Framework in order to make the solution stick,”
As they say, you thought wrong.
Keep saying that over and over and you might learn to ignore NK's cheating on the deal since day one. We are seeing the fruits of the Clinton-Carter-Laney axis negotiations.
Joel Wit ”we did know about the DPRK cheating on the highly-enriched uranium front starting in 1998 and had a strategy for dealing with it, namely to confront the DPRK and to use the leverage provided by the Agreed Framework in order to make the solution stick,”
As they say, you thought wrong.
A link to the Bolton comments would be helpful.
I'm a really big fan of sound advice, which this is, but I also like following sound advice, which we're not in terms of our own allies. And, while mass executions and state-sponsored terrorism aren't exactly the same as the threat of hydrogen bombs, it essentially is in the same ballpark. I hope this announcement is meant to resonate with our own allies who behave abhorrently.
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Spot on, SWM of Providence. I wish we had the spine and resolve to tell Saudi Arabia’s rulers to purge itself of the Wahhabi, the branch of Sunni Islam that calls for the West’s subjugation or annihilation (along with the House of Saud). Every week in these comment pages I read a chorus of readers’ level-headed and well-reasoned exasperation with the Saudi regime, along with hectoring “experts” who tell me why we are all so naive about how the world works. That’s the barnyard stuff. The US ought to flex some more muscle and stick to it. We might (I hope) be very surprised to see the results.
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