The problem lies in the location of The Garden. With the arena sitting directly on top of the train platforms, the columns supporting the structure inhibit the flow of people. This can only be corrected by razing The Garden at its current location and reconstructing it elsewhere, or by reconstructing the platforms so that they lie directly below the Farley Post Office. Naturally, the second alternative would mean placing commuters further from the heart of midtown. The governor's proposed improvements to the station can improve the passenger experience, but only so much.
4
Honestly, a real visionary would come up with more than fancy drawings and silly ideas. A visionary with courage would untangle the fiefdoms that gave us four different agencies, unions, different third rail and catenary and voltages for NJT, Metro North and the Long Island Railroad.
Imagine a system where you could take a train ran from Huntington to Hoboken, or from New Haven to Jersey Avenue- standardize the voltage, commit to one type of third rail and you can help our children get to work on time. No longer would you need train storage yards, through trains could run throughout the metropolitan area, and with a few new junctions and crossovers, trains from any state could find their way to either Grand Central or Penn Station.
Think of the labor and pension savings if you consolidate, that would pay for a nice cosmetic renovation of Penn Station. Imagine if you could descend to the tracks and find a train to take you home (no matter where you live) every 10 minutes, would you care what Penn Station looked like?
Imagine a system where you could take a train ran from Huntington to Hoboken, or from New Haven to Jersey Avenue- standardize the voltage, commit to one type of third rail and you can help our children get to work on time. No longer would you need train storage yards, through trains could run throughout the metropolitan area, and with a few new junctions and crossovers, trains from any state could find their way to either Grand Central or Penn Station.
Think of the labor and pension savings if you consolidate, that would pay for a nice cosmetic renovation of Penn Station. Imagine if you could descend to the tracks and find a train to take you home (no matter where you live) every 10 minutes, would you care what Penn Station looked like?
3
You are correct - but the unions would fight tooth and nail - just as they did when there was talk of merging Metro North and LIRR. We all know Democrats don't jeopardize unions in any way since they need them to get elected.
1
The only way this makes any sense is for a complete demolition of MSG and a removal of the franchise for that structure from the clutches of the ever-self interested Dolan clan. This venue is an embarrassment to New York City, especially in light of the new Yankee Stadium, Citi Field and Barclay Center. MSG needs to be redone from scratch, either at the New Penn Station or at the Farley Building -- another hundred million dollar patch and caulk job like the last one is just unacceptable.
6
NYC: go for it! Penn Station/Amtrak is a pit. Even the Second City has a grander space than you.
2
Between this and the plans unveiled today for the renovation of the Javits Center it appears that the guv'ner is already ramping up his campaign for reelection.
3
The governor's heart may be in the right place, but his approach in addressing Penn Station's legitimate needs is fatally flawed.
Organisations such as the Regional Plan Association and the Municipal Art Society are currently spearheading proposals which involve relocation of Madison Square Garden, making the original surface footprint available for a true 21st century Pennsylvania Station - even now one of the busiest railroad passenger terminals anywhere and a gateway of national importance.
An effort to begin again is far more than an exercise in civic pride. The efficient management of existing traffic, much less future crowds, makes expansion at track level an absolute imperative. What better time to perform that work than while constructing a bigger, bolder, better designed edifice above? Both matters, functionality and aesthetics, necessitate a completely new, "clean slate" approach.
The destruction of the original station was an unconscionable act; but, it's gone, never to return. If Cuomo is sincere concerning his stated goal of creating a "world-class transportation hub," then conceptual level planning requires today's players to envision a totally new station - one which will lift the spirits and instill in users a sense of a appreciation, while successfully performing its primary duty: the safe and efficacious handling of railway trains and the people who depend upon them.
Organisations such as the Regional Plan Association and the Municipal Art Society are currently spearheading proposals which involve relocation of Madison Square Garden, making the original surface footprint available for a true 21st century Pennsylvania Station - even now one of the busiest railroad passenger terminals anywhere and a gateway of national importance.
An effort to begin again is far more than an exercise in civic pride. The efficient management of existing traffic, much less future crowds, makes expansion at track level an absolute imperative. What better time to perform that work than while constructing a bigger, bolder, better designed edifice above? Both matters, functionality and aesthetics, necessitate a completely new, "clean slate" approach.
The destruction of the original station was an unconscionable act; but, it's gone, never to return. If Cuomo is sincere concerning his stated goal of creating a "world-class transportation hub," then conceptual level planning requires today's players to envision a totally new station - one which will lift the spirits and instill in users a sense of a appreciation, while successfully performing its primary duty: the safe and efficacious handling of railway trains and the people who depend upon them.
5
Why not take this unique opportunity to undo at least in part the tragic loss of the original Penn Station by incorporating a scaled portion of the original Penn Station's grand hall (AKA the Baths of Caracalla) using updated architectural methods and materials? Today you do not necessarily need limestone, granite and travertine to create the illusion of grandeur. What a wonderful gift to New York, perhaps at the behest of Donald Trump, the master builder? Don't dream it, do it!
2
Using todays materials and methods (not to mention skills) it would probably fall down, as we do everything on the cheap now. In any event, today's architects for such a project would likely be one either considered or seeking "celebrity status"., thus it would be more of an homage to their own ego than any bow to the past or even what the public or art minded would want. Look at the ridiculous World Trade Center station by Calatrava, a monument to himself, ugly over priced and way over budget.
1
It's a great idea, but if it has to be only a part of the original Penn, it MUST be the original glass & Iron Concourse:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/16/NYP_LOC2.jpg
This after all was a magnificent example the true innovation of the era, a 'Crystal Palace' befitting the greatest glass conservatories of Sir Joseph Paxton, or better.
Pei & Co tried & failed disastrously to evoke an updated Crystal Palace with the completely out-scaled glass disaster of the Javits Center, which should be decommissioned & converted into a birdcage for Pterodactyls.
We certainly have enough neoclassical masonry Roman temples around NYC, but we don't have anything like the glass & iron Concourse of the old Penn.
So if we can only have part of the original Penn, it should be the reconstruction of the jaw-dropping, soaring, incredibly elegant Groin-Vaulted iron & glass masterpiece of the famous Pennsylvania Station Concourse, it was the best part of the whole thing!
If they can build Eiffel's tower in Vegas, they can give us back our Crystal Palace. But it has to be done with rivets, cast iron and individual glass panes, not welded trusses & curved glass, or it will look like just another mall or casino.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/16/NYP_LOC2.jpg
This after all was a magnificent example the true innovation of the era, a 'Crystal Palace' befitting the greatest glass conservatories of Sir Joseph Paxton, or better.
Pei & Co tried & failed disastrously to evoke an updated Crystal Palace with the completely out-scaled glass disaster of the Javits Center, which should be decommissioned & converted into a birdcage for Pterodactyls.
We certainly have enough neoclassical masonry Roman temples around NYC, but we don't have anything like the glass & iron Concourse of the old Penn.
So if we can only have part of the original Penn, it should be the reconstruction of the jaw-dropping, soaring, incredibly elegant Groin-Vaulted iron & glass masterpiece of the famous Pennsylvania Station Concourse, it was the best part of the whole thing!
If they can build Eiffel's tower in Vegas, they can give us back our Crystal Palace. But it has to be done with rivets, cast iron and individual glass panes, not welded trusses & curved glass, or it will look like just another mall or casino.
4
So, it's still going to be a basement warren with maybe a fancy awning and some windows to let light into one meager area? Nice.
5
He wants to freeze toll increases on the Thruway and the Tappan Zee until 2020?
What about the GWB, the Holland Tunnel, the Midtown Tunnel and the Verazzano? Oh, but of course, hardworking residents of "downstate" will be allowed the privilege of continuing to prop up the rest of New York State as always.
Tolls for the NYC crossings have now risen to 15 dollars. That's double the hourly minimum wage for one trip in, which is onerous beyond belief, and I don't have to tell you what a burden that is on individuals and small businesses who depend on automobiles.
I'm sick of being part of the economic engine that sustains an upstate New York I have nothing to do with. Let them pay for their own roads and bridges with their own tolls.
What about the GWB, the Holland Tunnel, the Midtown Tunnel and the Verazzano? Oh, but of course, hardworking residents of "downstate" will be allowed the privilege of continuing to prop up the rest of New York State as always.
Tolls for the NYC crossings have now risen to 15 dollars. That's double the hourly minimum wage for one trip in, which is onerous beyond belief, and I don't have to tell you what a burden that is on individuals and small businesses who depend on automobiles.
I'm sick of being part of the economic engine that sustains an upstate New York I have nothing to do with. Let them pay for their own roads and bridges with their own tolls.
3
As NYS Governor, he has more control over the Thruway Authority (and, therefore, the TZB) than he has over the Port Authority and MTA. Yes, the MTA is a state agency, but its board has somewhat more independence than Thruway's. And with the PA...well, the big boy across the river shares control.
Gee, that Farley Post Office is a work of grandeur and beauty so, what the heck, let's just knock it down and build something just like we did with Penn Station, which looks like an underground parking garage!
5
The plan for Farley was to turn it into a train station, not to knock it down. The huge "sorting room" in the center of the room lends itself quite well to the conversion.
3
I am very suspicious of all these proposals by Cuomo. What is he positioning himself for now.
4
Given the history of such projects in New York and elsewhere, everyone should be very, very skeptical of the dollar estimates for this endeavor. Expecting it to actually double in dollars needed and time required are not unreasonable starting points.
And what do taxpayers get for that? How much of the figure actually goes into government accounting tricks, expenses for one study after another, for consultants and experts, environmental challenges, fat fees for lawyers and developers, new administrative staff and so on...all before one spade of earth is ever turned. Sort of like the articles one reads periodically about charities, some very well known, where CEO salaries and administration eat up 90 or more cents of each donated dollar with a pittance left for the supposed reason for the charity in the first place.
Then how much is promised to the unions to boost pensions or benefits as part of some under the table deals that have nothing to do with construction but will be rolled into "project costs".
Renovations and modernization are desperately needed, much of it not even visible to the public eye such as the tunnels, switching and track systems. But, gee, that's not glitzy enough for the pols to pose in front of or for cute little computer renderings. Yet another reason to be very watchful. Given NYC and Albany's history of corruption and shady dealings for friends and financial boosters, everyone should be very cautious.
And what do taxpayers get for that? How much of the figure actually goes into government accounting tricks, expenses for one study after another, for consultants and experts, environmental challenges, fat fees for lawyers and developers, new administrative staff and so on...all before one spade of earth is ever turned. Sort of like the articles one reads periodically about charities, some very well known, where CEO salaries and administration eat up 90 or more cents of each donated dollar with a pittance left for the supposed reason for the charity in the first place.
Then how much is promised to the unions to boost pensions or benefits as part of some under the table deals that have nothing to do with construction but will be rolled into "project costs".
Renovations and modernization are desperately needed, much of it not even visible to the public eye such as the tunnels, switching and track systems. But, gee, that's not glitzy enough for the pols to pose in front of or for cute little computer renderings. Yet another reason to be very watchful. Given NYC and Albany's history of corruption and shady dealings for friends and financial boosters, everyone should be very cautious.
4
Back before WW II this would have been done very quickly and cheaper, but today all of the useless, parasitic bureaucrats that infest all levels of government have to get their sticky fingers in the pie.
6
The rendering of the interior with the vast bank of non-ADA compliant stairs & not a handrail in sight resembles Cesar Pelli's 1985 design for the original Winter Garden in Battery Park City across West Street from the twin towers at the WTC. Not exactly cutting-edge design, & with no handrails not very user-friendly & certainly not safe. Whoever designed it should have to spend a few weeks trying to get around on crutches or in a wheelchair.
8
Or say luggage? Looks real pretty but totally useless.
6
It's a concept, not a final drawing. It would, of course, be ADA compliant at completion.
I dread having to change trains at Penn Station and while the lovely sweeping glass entrance will make a lovely cover shot for some architectural magazine or website, it looks like a nightmare to navigate with suitcases, department store purchases or - god forbid - a walker or wheelchair. Please don't let people who drive everywhere plan this thing, let those who use the station daily think about a design that is friendly to the users, not the ego and greed driven developers. We need a station that works, not one that makes money.
7
Reading this article raises another nightmare scenario - rebuilding Penn Station, however they decide to do it, will take years. It will involve even more traffic, even more disruption in the area than there already is. How can we get the train while all that is going on?
4
Cuomo has no idea how transportation works. This plan is all about creating a very expensive shopping center, not about transportation. It does not guarantee funding for the critically-needed gateway tunnel. It does not increase track capacity so more trains can be added as demand for commuter and interstate transit grows. It does not include funding to update the outdated interlocking that slows down the arrival and departure of eastbound trains. It does not prepare for through-running of trains from Long Island through Penn to New Jersey, which would ultimately be much more efficient than the fragmented system we have today. Cuomo, you're a failure, and you're setting us up for transportation failure.
15
As is typical of New York the focus is on the money, the developers and what they will get out of it, not the end users or the functionality of the station. The existing Penn Station is a disaster and embarrassment for the city. Let's make sure we prioritize ease of use for commuters, not boutique shopping for tourists.
Might even do them well to look at the original beautiful Penn Station which was demolished and let's use that as a lesson to not let developers run things.
Might even do them well to look at the original beautiful Penn Station which was demolished and let's use that as a lesson to not let developers run things.
17
Money, money, money. Just where is this money coming from, Prince Andrew. Or is this just a ploy to get attention off of the criminal elements in Albany?
7
I just looked at the governor's powerpoint. It includes: 1) closing 33rd street between 7th and 8th avenues 2) demolishing the MSG theater, which will serve as a grand 8th avenue entrance to the warren of existing waiting rooms that will be renovated 3) no mention of what train services will occupy the post office building. 4) a new direct Airtrain link from the station to LGA. 5) lots and lots of new retail and 6) a new name -- Empire State Station.
The devil will be in the details.
Here is a 1967 illustration of MSG to help people figure out where the theater is: http://www.grayflannelsuit.net/blog/an-exploded-view-drawing-of-madison-...
The devil will be in the details.
Here is a 1967 illustration of MSG to help people figure out where the theater is: http://www.grayflannelsuit.net/blog/an-exploded-view-drawing-of-madison-...
2
Blah blah blah whatever. Fix the 1910 tunnels, signal, and safety systems before you spend my taxes on the pointless lipstick-on-a-pig makeover.
9
You're absolutely correct, Mark. the tunnels, both to New Jersey and Long Island, should be the No. 1 priority on any spending on the rail infrastructure. And where is the money coming from? Cuomo hasn't even nailed down all of the financing for the new Tappan Zee Bridge.
7
It would be nice if they just re-opened the "Gimbel's Tunnel" so you can get the F train without going outside.
14
I was in NY,C a few weeks back and had to go from LIRR to around 35th and 5th... I looked for that tunnel that I used all the time in my younger years as a LIRR commuter to NYC.. when was it closed???
1
$3,000,000,000 could fix a lot of what's wrong in New York's miserable public education system. This money would be hugely gigantically ENORMOUSLY better spent on improving quality of public education of young New Yorkers. Young people are our future - and a quality education is their biggest opportunity. It's a foolhardy society that picks renovating train stations and airports over creating prospect of opportunity for it's young people.
1
Money is already being poured into the NYC school without a single thing t show for it. They don't need more money. They need to be properly managed.
7
No. NYC spends an obscene amount per pupil already. The quality is the problem. In any event - infrastructure helps foster the jobs and businesses that produce the billions in revenue already spent in the huge NYC budget.
5
"They don't need more money. They need to be properly managed."
They also need pupils who value education and do not attack those who do for "acting white".
They also need pupils who value education and do not attack those who do for "acting white".
3
There's no sense wasting money renovating the pit that is Penn Station. The entire complex, including the decrepit Garden, needs to be razed and rethought by some ace urban planners, not just by developers. This will likely be the one chance in the next 100 years to get it right.
10
Curiously, as the Fed is trying to raise interest rates after nearly a decade of extremely low or non-existent interest rates, we are now finally trying to build massive infrastructure that has long been much needed. Had this been done seven or eight years ago, it would have provided a much needed boost to the economy, and it could have been financed with very low interest bonds. More important, we would have been able to enjoy the much needed benefits it would have provided much sooner.
7
They should have never torn down the old Penn Station, it was a thing of exquisite beauty. They've been talking reno on this dump for years. It'll take another decade and graft to get this project going. Penn Station is a mess, it smells, it's ugly and so uninviting.
4
Cuomo is touring the State proposing big ticket items and giveaways like a drunken sailor. What's up with that? He is almost manic in his grandiose plans that likely will go nowhere. Is this the beginning stages of a man about to fall? Penn Station needs a major facelift, but I have no confidence in New York State and New York City developers being able to successfully create anything of substance and beauty.
1
No mention of the tunnel under Long Island Sound, which would benefit millions more than a purty Penn would.
1
While I'm excited at the prospect of a new Penn Station, the fact that the potentially beautiful new station would still lead to the same sub-standard train service below tempers my enthusiasm. Having to choose between the two, I'd take Penn Station as it is, with proper high-speed intercity rail (not Acela) rather than a shiny glass box with the same slow lines. It seems getting both is out of the question.
14
You aren't going to get high speed rail like you speak of. The route would need to be re-designed and this area of the country is too populated to do that.
4
The governor deserves credit for his ambitious vision. But unless he is willing to take on the Dolan family and their self-serving Cablevision-MSG interests at all costs, this plan will go the way of the Bloomberg administration's west side stadium -- and none of us will live long enough to see this plan come to fruition.
6
I was 17, living on East Fourth Street. Second Avenue was covered with steel plates and the buildings on the corner were buttressed to keep them from collapsing during blasting for a new subway line. I am now 61, and there is still no Second Avenue subway. I doubt my grown children will live to see the new Penn Station.
18
Interesting. I have always been under the impression the the tunnels for the Second Ave Subway were built in the East Village decades ago. Is that true and what is the extent of these tunnels?
Madison Square Garden needs to go, throw them someplace else. I'd gladly take the train around the country if more money was invested into it to make it more accommodating. Their new plans for the station are horrendous. The designs make the new station look like an Apple store and does not respect the original architecture at all. The use of stone cannot be overlooked and should really be the only material they use along with a sparse amount of glass. Anything less would be tacky and a waste of money, especially since we KNOW this will take decades to complete. Leave the Post Office on 8th. avenue alone and get rid of Madison Square Garden. The last time the Knicks won a game Manhattan was still rent stabilized.
7
Think big, really big, colossal! Like the subway system--the IRT, BMT & IND of, more or less, a hundred years ago. And revive the idea of a cross harbor tunnel from Brooklyn to New Jersey. And major expansion of the subway system to form an outer belt. We can do it.
David Gunn, the excellent and former President of Amtrak as well as the New York City Transit Authority once said that New York City had the solution to Penn Station and destroyed it in 1965. He felt that the Farley Post Office was not a suitable replacement as all of the train platforms were one block away under the current station. My own view is to make Grand Central Terminal into New York's main rail hub and expand the connection currently under construction with Penn Station for the Long Island Railroad to include Amtrak and New Jersey Transit. Thus Grand Central Terminal could be renamed Grand Central Station. It has the tracks and the infrastructure to accommodate the volume of passengers. However, since all of its own tracks end at the station and go north and south, engineers will have to figure out how to extend and connect them to the east west tracks. Once that is completed attention can be turned to Penn Station and its renovation and reconstructions at its current site.
2
Hear, hear! Grand Central is an urban jewel, but it's not much of a train station any more. When I was a child, my family never used the old Penn Station - wherever we went, the train left from Grand Central. That was the great entrance to the city, and it sure was great!
2
Stop talking about "Penn" station!
It no longer has any relationship to the Pennsylvania Railroad.
It is in New York and the name should reflect that.
And while you're at it, change JFK Airport to that of a great New Yorker, such as. . . .
It no longer has any relationship to the Pennsylvania Railroad.
It is in New York and the name should reflect that.
And while you're at it, change JFK Airport to that of a great New Yorker, such as. . . .
Change it back to Idlewild Airport, no more structures named after Presidents. Train stations and otherwise.
2
Warren Wilhelm?
And bring back the "Triboro Bridge'. The politicos in Albany spent $4 million or so on new signage and ancillary expenses when they renamed the bridge without asking any of us of the money could be better spent, like on the deteriorating roads leading to the bridge. And what did Bobby Kennedy do for NY anyway to merit such an honor?
3
I am all for a major infrastructure plan, but a PLAN, not a lot of expensive disjointed bits and pieces. Work with Quebec, and Boston. Plan a cross of high-speed rail (which will feed either into a renewed Penn Station or Grand Central in NYC). One line connects from Buffalo to Boston, another from New York to Quebec. At the cross, buy up ample square miles of space for a giant new airport, (which connects to NYC in an hour (or less) by the new 250+ mph rail system), and is clear of the overcrowded runway space around our three ancient airports. The first step connects a location in Manhattan to the new airport. Several miles of farmland around the airport is purchased (and in the short run, rented back to the farmers) for eventual expansion to handle suborbital flights from Asia and Europe. A new ring of exurbs become suburbs due to the quick transportation, and people can live in a new, enlarged NY Metro area, which grows to include upstate. It pays taxes to New York, not other states. It revives the upstate economy. It enables people who now move to other parts of the country because the cost of living here is too high and the crowding too intense to stay here, particularly graduates of our many fine universities.
A regional plan for growth, not just a new building within the urban sprawl.
A regional plan for growth, not just a new building within the urban sprawl.
4
Amtrak's Lake Shore Limited and Adirondack lines already serve those routes, with the meeting point in Albany. Building a new airport in Albany, or enlarging the current one, is a good idea. However, the only trains capable of going over 250 mph are Maglev systems like the one in Shanghai. I don't think it is cost effective to build one to span the 150 miles from NYC to Albany, and the cost of commuting daily would be prohibitive for all but the most wealthy people.
Is this another way of saying that in the age of the internet and FedEx, that the US Post Office must learn to think small? Gosh, that big post office building used to feel so very important.
1
The key sentence in this article:
"It is unclear exactly how the more than $3 billion project, which the governor is calling the Empire Station Complex, will be paid for..."
Why announce such a grand project without having a budget and revenue source for it? Oh wait, I know. Get people excited about the project first, suck up billions of their tax dollars later, after of course having given sweetheart contracts and tax breaks to the developers who donated to your election campaign. Yes, that is the democrat AND republican way.
"It is unclear exactly how the more than $3 billion project, which the governor is calling the Empire Station Complex, will be paid for..."
Why announce such a grand project without having a budget and revenue source for it? Oh wait, I know. Get people excited about the project first, suck up billions of their tax dollars later, after of course having given sweetheart contracts and tax breaks to the developers who donated to your election campaign. Yes, that is the democrat AND republican way.
6
Shouldn't Penn Station remain between the 7th and 8th avenue subways? Why move it west of 8th? Those blocks are long.
1
Architectural grandeur has its place but the rendering we see here is frightfully out of step with the more than decades old concept of accessibility. Those stairs - which don't even have handrails - are a challenge for a large percentage of the population, many of whom are not disabled. The likely hidden elevator in the plans, to comply with the ADA act, does not change that the pathway for most pedestrians is scary to impossible for many.
13
Definitely get rid of Madison Square Garden and build a beautiful, modern transportation hub that'll make New York proud. We live in the world's greatest city---and our busiest commuter station is an absolute dump. It's embarrassing.
4
Tear down the mess that is Madison Square garden and build a train station and subway hub to rival Europe's best - something that will inspire for centuries!
Forget retail and forget the sports connection.
Do one thing, focus, and do it right!
Forget retail and forget the sports connection.
Do one thing, focus, and do it right!
2
Why "Europe's best," Bill? Until the early 1950s, when taxpayer subsidy of competing modes began to undermine the industry, U.S. railroads were second-to-none. Presuming we truly wish to "do it right," we could base our designs upon classic North American prototypes and create a unique, world-class station!
Couldn't find the expected completion of this project. Seems like would be an important fact or estimate to include.
1
The superlatively awful Penn Station seems imbued with a perverse longevity to defy all planning. I suspect it will yet be but slightly modified, or not at all, for decades to come, thwarting and bewildering a panoply of travelers from our boroughs, the nation and the world itself.
2
Please explain why they want to renovate one train station and then build another one, one block away.
If they renovate Penn why would a second station be needed.
I believe that not only is it a waste it will be counter productive.
I assume the two stations will have different trains which would mean one would have to walk a long distance carrying luggage if one needed to take a train too Penn and then transfer to a train that leaves from the new one.
What have you achieved.
Wouldn't it make sense to keep them where they are.
If they renovate Penn why would a second station be needed.
I believe that not only is it a waste it will be counter productive.
I assume the two stations will have different trains which would mean one would have to walk a long distance carrying luggage if one needed to take a train too Penn and then transfer to a train that leaves from the new one.
What have you achieved.
Wouldn't it make sense to keep them where they are.
I am so glad to see that NYC is going to use the Post Office building as part of Penn station. It was a crime against architectural history when they tore down the old Penn station which was designed by the same architects as the post office. If anyone reading this is not familiar with the old Penn station please go online and look at photos. It was breathtaking.
1
Why not just leave it alone, and rename it "Pathetic Station"?
1
The rendering dos not show an ambitious proposal, rather it depicts a halfway measure demonstrating that even now with the tremendous growth in importance and the need to support mass transportation for the growth of the city rail continues to receive the dregs of city and state attention.
Imagine, if politicians had real vision, what would be possible. Instead of a rat slot bored into in the bottom of a bad building, a majestic rail terminal on the scale and with the vision of Madison Square Garden. How much more appropriate than forcing commuter traffic to take a second seat to the black sedans of the billionaires.
Imagine, if politicians had real vision, what would be possible. Instead of a rat slot bored into in the bottom of a bad building, a majestic rail terminal on the scale and with the vision of Madison Square Garden. How much more appropriate than forcing commuter traffic to take a second seat to the black sedans of the billionaires.
4
Any mention of a complete renewal of the 1910 tunnels and tracks that are the lifeblood of Penn Station? Once you go beneath Penn Station, it's still 1910.
Any mention of the Trans-Hudson tunnel to replace the 105 year old tunnel to NJ? The one that President Christie killed?
Without a real infrastructure overhaul, it's just a bunch of sleek glass curtain walls and retail. Penn Station needs more than a facade.
Any mention of the Trans-Hudson tunnel to replace the 105 year old tunnel to NJ? The one that President Christie killed?
Without a real infrastructure overhaul, it's just a bunch of sleek glass curtain walls and retail. Penn Station needs more than a facade.
6
The artist's rendering of sunlight pouring into the entrance to Penn Station is pure fantasy. It will never happen. The building across the street will be at least 25 stories tall before the new station is even close to completion, blocking any chance of sunlight ever reaching inside the lobby.
6
Already running for reelection isn't he?
2
I'm all for a new Penn Station, but how about connecting it with high-speed service to Montreal stopping at Albany and through Syracuse, Rochester, and Buffalo to Toronto. We could get to Buffalo in 3 hours and from there on to Toronto in 40 minutes. Then people might want to build and invest in those communities.
4
Regardless of one's politics, it is nice to hear someone in public life dare New Yorkers to think big again. After watching the fiasco of what is now the fifteenth year running of the reconstruction of the World Trade Center site, hopefully something will get done faster and sooner at Penn Station. A city that claims to be at the center of the world, that built the Brooklyn Bridge over 125 years ago, that built the Empire State Building in 16 months over 80 years ago, can and should do better.
16
I'm all for this idea,just let the Moreland Commission run it.. Oh wait that was disbanded
2
Before handing out contracts to your cronies, gov, how about taking care of the working people of NYC and get the CUNY contract finalized? With this and the La Guardia renovations, millions of consulting and management fees will surely go to Albany insiders. How about throwing CUNY staff and faculty a bone? CUNY too is a great institution thought up by your forefathers.
Please get MSG to go somewhere else....that behemoth sitting on top of Penn station is an eyesore no matter how you dress it up.
A new Penn Station cannot come soon enough.. New York is unlucky enough to have the ugliest train station on the planet, instead of an honor for the great city of New York!
A new Penn Station cannot come soon enough.. New York is unlucky enough to have the ugliest train station on the planet, instead of an honor for the great city of New York!
2
The idea of some sort of beautiful sweeping train station that will remind all of Europe is a pipe dream for fools. Who will pay for it? Keep the architects and the urban planners out of it, if you want anything that is functional and affordable. Take a look at that insane PATH Station downtown if you want an example of the debacle that awaits if a new train station ever gets underway.
3
"...what was to have been called Moynihan Station."
When was the agreement cancelled to name the new station after the late great Senator Moynihan? I haven't gone to Google yet, but wasn't the US Congress in agreement? Who has the authority to cancel this plan and why would he/she/they want to do that?
When was the agreement cancelled to name the new station after the late great Senator Moynihan? I haven't gone to Google yet, but wasn't the US Congress in agreement? Who has the authority to cancel this plan and why would he/she/they want to do that?
2
Spare us from naming structures after politicians.
3
Meanwhile, Cuomo vetoed a bill that would have given a cost of living increase to CUNY professors, who haven't gotten one since 2009. That's CUNY, which trains the NYC work force. And after he signed one for SUNY. Can we get our priorities straight, Mr. Cuomo?
2
I love it. But please, finish the 2nd Ave Subway. Please. [begging for 100 years]
2
The rendering in this article just shows a humongous staircase. What if you have luggage?
3
Penn Station is a pretty awful rail station and a replacement would almost certainly be an improvement. However, the two questions that come to mind for me are how is NY going to pay for this? and, why is New York's egomaniac governor making this grand announcement without the Mayor?
1
If you ask Andrew Cuomo, he is both Governor and Mayor.
1
Is Glenwood Management involved?
3
If I recall, back in 2013, the NYC Council only granted the owners of Madison Square Garden a 10-year extension on the permit to operate at the current site. That said, I believe the arena and the station will continue to coexist.
I can't imagine the MSG arena moving anytime soon. Sitting atop NJ Transit, the LIRR, and all those subway lines, the present location is a gold mine. And the owners recently invested $1 billion to renovate the arena. MSG would be smart to swap the theatre space for an extension to keep the arena at its current site beyond 2023
Any plan that can expand the station space and return natural light to the Penn concourses would be a welcome one. I hope that the final plan can also include a grander entrance from the 7th Avenue side as well. A design that opens up the east side of the station to some natural light. Entering Penn from 7th Avenue today is like opening rusty bilco doors and descending into a decrepit cellar.
I can't imagine the MSG arena moving anytime soon. Sitting atop NJ Transit, the LIRR, and all those subway lines, the present location is a gold mine. And the owners recently invested $1 billion to renovate the arena. MSG would be smart to swap the theatre space for an extension to keep the arena at its current site beyond 2023
Any plan that can expand the station space and return natural light to the Penn concourses would be a welcome one. I hope that the final plan can also include a grander entrance from the 7th Avenue side as well. A design that opens up the east side of the station to some natural light. Entering Penn from 7th Avenue today is like opening rusty bilco doors and descending into a decrepit cellar.
Tony, why should the public be denied an honest chance to make substantive changes to the site simply because "the owners recently invested $1 billion to renovate the arena"? Is it New York City's fault the work was done before an agreement was in place?
These costs can be taken into consideration during future negotiations regarding the property's use.
These costs can be taken into consideration during future negotiations regarding the property's use.
1
I wouldn't trust Cuomo to run a lemonade stand. This will be just another tremendous waste of taxpayer money. Heck Andy, If you have that much money floating around how about giving some of it back to the taxpayers.
3
Does Governor Cuomo have any ability to be genuine?
Everything he says and does looks like a dishonest and duplicitous political stunt designed to look tremendous and inspiring, but eventually turning out to be contingent, frugal and wrongheaded.
Let's recall how he teamed with Governor Christie to stop Ebola at the borders of their states, and all they managed to do was look foolish and hold as a hostage a volunteer nurse whom they decided to put in a tent near Newark airport - and to provoke her to sue the states for treating her illegally.
Let's recall how Governor Cuomo has cheated NYC students out of about $2B, despite his posturing about doing all sorts of things for students in the state. Let's recall how he has refused to settle contract talks with several unions, leaving their members without a raise for more than 6 years. Let's recall how Cuomo promised to reform the culture in the legislature, but killed his own Moreland Commission, destroyed years of his own emails, and sits quivering as the US Attorney for the Southern District encircles him like Cuomo was just chopped Silver or a bleating Skelos.
If past is prologue, we have seen already Cuomo's best improvements to Penn Station in his empty promises. How do we know that? They don't even mention the more than 10-year effort by the Feds to redo the Post Office across the street on 8th Avenue, which calls for moving the train station to the Post Office building, but Cuomo doesn't. Need more? Just watch.
Everything he says and does looks like a dishonest and duplicitous political stunt designed to look tremendous and inspiring, but eventually turning out to be contingent, frugal and wrongheaded.
Let's recall how he teamed with Governor Christie to stop Ebola at the borders of their states, and all they managed to do was look foolish and hold as a hostage a volunteer nurse whom they decided to put in a tent near Newark airport - and to provoke her to sue the states for treating her illegally.
Let's recall how Governor Cuomo has cheated NYC students out of about $2B, despite his posturing about doing all sorts of things for students in the state. Let's recall how he has refused to settle contract talks with several unions, leaving their members without a raise for more than 6 years. Let's recall how Cuomo promised to reform the culture in the legislature, but killed his own Moreland Commission, destroyed years of his own emails, and sits quivering as the US Attorney for the Southern District encircles him like Cuomo was just chopped Silver or a bleating Skelos.
If past is prologue, we have seen already Cuomo's best improvements to Penn Station in his empty promises. How do we know that? They don't even mention the more than 10-year effort by the Feds to redo the Post Office across the street on 8th Avenue, which calls for moving the train station to the Post Office building, but Cuomo doesn't. Need more? Just watch.
1
Does anybody really believe any of this stuff will happen in our lifetimes? The 2nd Avenue subway was envisioned in the 1920s and they're still years away from completing a rump version of the original route. By contrast the Chinese have been adding an entire subway line to their Beijing metro each year for more than a decade and doing it very efficiently. (See below.) You know, maybe we should just hire them to handle our infrastructure projects.
Beijing Metro Expansion: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/12/29/beijing-subway-expansion_n_6389...
Beijing Metro Expansion: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/12/29/beijing-subway-expansion_n_6389...
13
A Chinese company is running the Pulaski Skyway project in Jersey... It's already years behind schedule. They don't have any magic, when you touch something that's old and neglected there are problems no matter where you are. Simpler solution is not to let things go to the point of being decrepit.
3
Sure. Chinese firms handing large-scale development projects in the U.S. What could go wrong? http://www.scmp.com/topics/beijing-air-pollution
Two reasons it can't happen here: 1) Unions 2) In the US you can't just take peoples property away and demolish homes and business'
Great ideas but where is the money coming from?
3
Stop being so clever about creative financing and multi-purpose development options. They take forever and there's enormous leakage of funds. Instead why not just tear down Pen Station/Madison Square Garden and build: 1) a beautiful new railroad station (just that), not some cosmetic fix that's an excuse for retail malls and billionaire condos, and 2) a new arena somewhere else. People can get their heads around that -- and it's easier to follow the money. Better yet, it will actually happen.
87
Why not? I'll give you a billion reasons.
http://www.cnbc.com/2013/10/25/the-billion-dollar-makeover-of-madison-sq...
I'm not sure I understand the objection to "multipurpose development options." Wasn't that the goal of the original Penn Station - to be a money spinner for the Pennsylvania Company, rather than simply a place to catch a train?
http://www.cnbc.com/2013/10/25/the-billion-dollar-makeover-of-madison-sq...
I'm not sure I understand the objection to "multipurpose development options." Wasn't that the goal of the original Penn Station - to be a money spinner for the Pennsylvania Company, rather than simply a place to catch a train?
And where's the Pennsylvania Railroad today, Lorem?
Oh, they "spun" things, all right. Too bad the money didn't follow, eh?
Oh, they "spun" things, all right. Too bad the money didn't follow, eh?
Because you can't just tear down MSG without paying fair market value for it, and MSG's location is a huge part of the value. You'd have to cough up a few billion dollars just to get the arena through eminent domain, it would take a decade in court to do so, and that would all have to happen before you could even start on the project.
"The announcement was one in a series of appearances by the governor centering on his plans for improving New York State’s infrastructure..."
And ALL in the wake of the corruption verdicts for Skelos and Silver by the "third man in the room"? Hmmm...
And what's needed isn't some flashy "glassy entrance" to the labyrinthine and Stygian depths of the "the lower levels" of Penn, but an altogether different plan! Take a look at almost any European station!
And ALL in the wake of the corruption verdicts for Skelos and Silver by the "third man in the room"? Hmmm...
And what's needed isn't some flashy "glassy entrance" to the labyrinthine and Stygian depths of the "the lower levels" of Penn, but an altogether different plan! Take a look at almost any European station!
17
Long overdue. Get rid of MSG
9
Architecture critic Vincent Scully's famous comment on Penn Station:
"One entered the city like a king, now one scuttles in like a rat."
"One entered the city like a king, now one scuttles in like a rat."
31
Here is a plan for new Penn Station - rebuild following the design plans of the old Penn Station, expanded and one block over if necessary. Destroying it was one of the worst architectural travesties in the city's history. I still remember Penn Station from when I was a kid.
27
Another retail hub! Just what Manhattan has been waiting for!
24
You can just see all the Albany political dregs salivating at the honey pot this will creat for them.
12
when they build a subway connection to La guardia, then I will cheer.
as it is now, no matter how much they spend in the new Penn ... will not not address the real issues of transportation to and from NYC.
Time to address airports to city mass transit is long overdue.
as it is now, no matter how much they spend in the new Penn ... will not not address the real issues of transportation to and from NYC.
Time to address airports to city mass transit is long overdue.
17
Time to address every aspect of mass transport, c - and there are FAR more daily users of Penn Station than there are travelers at La Guardia and J.F.K., combined.
1
Penn Station desperately needs a major face-lift proposed by Governor Cuomo. But, I hope he won't leave us with a modern 21st century terminal leading down to the current, musty, out-dated 20th century train system below. As a major transportation hub the renewal should include upgraded tracks and tunnels suitable for high-speed rail both for Amtrak as well as NJTransit and the LIRR. With a modern transportation system and modern station makes no sense.
15
Regarding highway construction upstate - Slightly off topic, but everyone living in downstate NY benefits by having an economically vibrant and growing upstate region.
9
True - but this is not the 1940's. Building roads and fixing bridges isn't going to make upstate vibrant. Industry has fled and is still fleeing. It's not because of the roads.
3
Our future is public transportation. Having a hub that would bring rail, bus, boats and planes together while providing an inspirational structure is an excellent idea. To make the vision a reality, New York City will also have to approach the problem of homelessness and poverty.
4
As a devotee of train traveler and frequent user of Penn Station, I'm not sure which option is worse: the current layout (an undignified rabbit warren of dingy corridors and tiny shops), the prospect of years (decades?) of navigating an enormous construction while the existing structure is replaced, or yet another politician's broken promise to relieve the suffering of the New York commuter. I prefer to keep an optimistic stance, but it'll be long after 2025 that we'll see anything resembling a real train station on Eighth Avenue & 34th St.
11
Perfect opportunity to tear down Madison Square Garbage & reconstruct the magnificent Penn Station exactly as it was, rivets & all.
36
That's the only right answer. Each of the reconstruction plans put forward over the past half-century suffers from the same sad flaw: They represent philistines' elevation of Jetsons architecture over the ineffable beauty of McKim, Mead, & White's timeless design. Just this once, let's not do the foolish, self-aggrandizing thing. Let's tear down the hideous mistake, rebuild the jewel box as it was (updated to modern code), and, at last, call it a day.
3
Exciting :)
And very impressively ambitious.
Will I live long enough to see it?
And very impressively ambitious.
Will I live long enough to see it?
How long has Moynihan station been in the works? If I live to see this I will be happy.
4
My thoughts exactly....will I live to see this? Such a disgrace that people have had to deal with the Penn Station rat hole for so long...all buried under very UGLY buildings.
1
Well more than half of New York's residents live in the NYC metropolitan area. So why is the state funneling a bulk of the infrastructure money into dead and dying upstate communities (other than the obvious political play)? Invest those dollars in a place where they'll get an outsized return. A healthy and growing NYC is the rising tide that floats the rest of the state taxwise, letting the state engage in whatever voter-pleasing boondoggles it likes in the out years.
32
You're wrong. Upstate is vital to the NYS economy overall. We're not "dead and dying," if you'd care to come take a visit. Most downstaters (and I lived in NYC many years before moving back Upstate) learn how remarkable Upstate New York is when they bring their children here to attend college in the huge SUNY system. Remarkably (!) many of those children decide to stay in these "dead and dying" parts after graduation. Clean air. Green vistas. Affordable housing. Easy commutes. Imagine.
Because New York City creates very little wealth. It's important to see this clearly.
Since the Erie Canal opened, the city has been an aggregator of wealth, drawing it from places like . . . wait for it . . . upstate.
Since the Erie Canal opened, the city has been an aggregator of wealth, drawing it from places like . . . wait for it . . . upstate.
2
So just cut the lifeline and let the rest of the state drift out to hades? Cuomo;s investments in Buffalo are beginning to pay off, the same for some of the other upstate urban centers. Just remember that in the '70's wanted to do the same to NYC which you advocate. The rest of the state also pays taxes to Albany. And your attitude is what creates the divisions in this country: us against them. Why dont we cut off places which constatnly flood, or have earthquakes or tornadoes. No, when down, the rest of us rush in to help. Which is what we didnt do for forty years to upstate.
1
OMG I've heard this a million times already. Typical NYS corruption in action. I can still see President Clinton standing with Senator Moynihan announcing the renovation of the post office as the new hub. We're going on TWENTY YEARS since that announcement. The destruction of the original Penn Station is perhaps the single greatest tragedy to ever befall a spectacular public space for the benefit of the most vile and greedy property developers. The DELAY in rectifying that atrocity might be the second worst, as anyone who's ever passed through Penn Station today knows all too well.
56
Last year, the Regional Transit District (Denver) finished a two year renovation of Union Station. For a number of years it was neglected. It sat on the edge of downtown in a seedy district near the Platte River. AMTRAK just ran two trains a day (still does) and the only reason to go to the area.
Then, came the vision of cleaning up what is called Lower Downtown (LoDo), starting the late 1980s. Since then the area has been greatly transformed into an area of apartments, cafes and the home of the Colorado Rockies.
RTD made use of Union Station for light rail. They saw it also as a hub for commuter rail and regional buses. A 4/10 % sales tax increase was passed in 2006. Part of it to renovate the station, expand light rail and expand regional and local bus service. Most of which is done or in progress.
The capstone, though, was Union Station. A gem, that was days away from the wrecking ball. Built around the same time as Penn Station, in the Buex Arts style of Grand Central Station, though much smaller in scale,
Today, it is a hub of Lodo and new construction going up all around it. More hotels, stores, cafes and the like have sprung up. Inside the station, is a hotel, and several cafes.
More here:
http://www.denverpost.com/business/ci_26139214/denvers-renovated-union-s...
Next time in Denver? Take the new train, beginning this spring, from the Denver airport and see for yourself.
It's great Denver did not make New York's mistake.
Then, came the vision of cleaning up what is called Lower Downtown (LoDo), starting the late 1980s. Since then the area has been greatly transformed into an area of apartments, cafes and the home of the Colorado Rockies.
RTD made use of Union Station for light rail. They saw it also as a hub for commuter rail and regional buses. A 4/10 % sales tax increase was passed in 2006. Part of it to renovate the station, expand light rail and expand regional and local bus service. Most of which is done or in progress.
The capstone, though, was Union Station. A gem, that was days away from the wrecking ball. Built around the same time as Penn Station, in the Buex Arts style of Grand Central Station, though much smaller in scale,
Today, it is a hub of Lodo and new construction going up all around it. More hotels, stores, cafes and the like have sprung up. Inside the station, is a hotel, and several cafes.
More here:
http://www.denverpost.com/business/ci_26139214/denvers-renovated-union-s...
Next time in Denver? Take the new train, beginning this spring, from the Denver airport and see for yourself.
It's great Denver did not make New York's mistake.
8
"It is unclear exactly how the more than $3 billion project, which the governor is calling the Empire Station Complex, will be paid for..."
Fantastic, another poorly thought out pipe dream from Cuomo, like all the rest of his schemes, designed to make him look good (he thinks) at the expense of practicality.
Fantastic, another poorly thought out pipe dream from Cuomo, like all the rest of his schemes, designed to make him look good (he thinks) at the expense of practicality.
5
Vornado, Related, Extell and Brookfield are the Lockheed Martin, Raytheon and Boeing of the New York Real Estate Industrial Complex. Why not admit they are essentially arms of the government, and end the farce? Obviously, there is more money and less regulation involved in maintaining the facade.
3
Lockheed Martin, Raytheon and Boeing do great work.
1
Yeah, great work. Obscenely over budget, endlessly plagued by problems, and completely unessential to this nation's defense. Witness the F-35, which can't even fly in the rain.
3
I welcome the proposals to redevelop Penn Station, but unless something is done to remove the homeless who reside there it will never become the transportation hub that we deserve, no matter how much we spend on the project.
11
I used to work across from Penn station. I had to go there daily and hated it. My most perfect memory was of going down a crowded stairwell and I heard liquid running from the hand rail, I looked up to the top of the stairs and a man was peeing down the hand rail! I've never looked at a handrail the same since and I avoid that station whenever possible. It's a disgrace that this is the first place people often see when visiting. Tear it down and start over. It would be awfully nice to have some transparency about this project, but we can expect nothing from this governor and mayor. Hopefully they'll continue their feud and at least some of the dirty deals will be leaked.
8
"Leaked"? Well played, sir!
How is a new station going to address the derelicts like the one described above? NYC needs a mayor who knows how to address the problem. Just building a new station won't do it.
There's money for everything but the court mandated funding of the public schools- a right established in the state constitution.
One wonders why the find,mental right to a good education is so unimportant to the Governor.
One wonders why the find,mental right to a good education is so unimportant to the Governor.
3
How many times have we heard this before?
2
Reconversion of the Farley Post Office was the longtime dream of the late Senator Daniel Patrick Moynihan of NY.
Earlier scenarios, as reported by NYT, had the name of Daniel Patrick Moynihan on the transformed post office. I certainly hope that this will happen.
Use of the Moynihan name was suspiciously absent in the NYT article and the preliminary rendering which carry the prominent source line of "State of New York."
All of this development activity leads me to conclude that Governor Cuomo aspires to a third term.
Or is he simply making sure he has a tangible legacy to reflect upon?
Earlier scenarios, as reported by NYT, had the name of Daniel Patrick Moynihan on the transformed post office. I certainly hope that this will happen.
Use of the Moynihan name was suspiciously absent in the NYT article and the preliminary rendering which carry the prominent source line of "State of New York."
All of this development activity leads me to conclude that Governor Cuomo aspires to a third term.
Or is he simply making sure he has a tangible legacy to reflect upon?
4
No doubt this will end up being a boondoogle ripe with corruption to pay off Cuomo's business donors and allies.
6
It's an improvement, but it's still only a half-solution. The only way to undo the crime of the demolition of the original Penn Station: rebuild it.
6
As a lifelong NYC resident and as someone whose sole methods of transportation are mass transit (and foot power),I welcome Governor Cuomo' s call to build a new Penn Station. However, I am troubled by his plan to spend $22 billion to build or rehabilitate transportation infrastructure primarily upstate and his call to freeze tolls on the Thruway and the Tappan Zee Bridge. The Governor asks us to think big. That is laudable but New York has limited resources and the majority of residents live in NYC and the nearby suburbs and the vast majority of economic activity in this State takes place in the metropolitan area. Wishing it were different will not make it so. Pouring money into upstate projects will not transform upstate into an economic powerhouse
21
Upstate should not be ignored because PEOPLE LIVE THERE. The Thruway needs to be rehabilitated and widened enlarged to three lanes each way as opposed to the current two lines each way. Every thing that could be financially and reasonably done to enhance the upstate counties should be undertaken because they are part of the New York State.
8
Here's a thought: Run Rick Perry for mayor on a secession platform. Get that #SecedeNYC hashtag trending now! Doesn't even take real courage, just the Internet kind. Get to work. Good luck.
Why doesn't anyone suggest rehabilitating the Erie Canal and making it a major freight transport channel once again? According to the NY Times (http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/03/nyregion/03erie.html), a canal barge can carry a short ton of cargo 514 miles on one gallon of diesel, compared to 202 miles for railroads and 59 miles for a truck. Surely, it makes more sense to promote water transport than to subsidize fuel inefficient trucking on the Thruway?
How does Governor Cuomo shuttle himself between his billionaire real estate and hedge fund donors in NYC, and his office in Albany?
LaGuardia and Penn Station.
What's getting renovated?
LaGuardia and Penn Station.
Meanwhile, subway fares have increased under Cuomo more than any other governor in history. 50 cents in the past 5 years alone! This while the MTA still hasn't recovered from Sandy reconstruction.
Mass transit is a vital urban need and a vital environmental need. Step up for the MTA, Governor. Or your successor in 2018 will.
LaGuardia and Penn Station.
What's getting renovated?
LaGuardia and Penn Station.
Meanwhile, subway fares have increased under Cuomo more than any other governor in history. 50 cents in the past 5 years alone! This while the MTA still hasn't recovered from Sandy reconstruction.
Mass transit is a vital urban need and a vital environmental need. Step up for the MTA, Governor. Or your successor in 2018 will.
14
The curse leveled upon New York City for the destruction of Pennsylvania Station is the current Penn Station.
41
Good. I was in there for hours several times last year and the place is a toilet - literally, with people living in cordoned off areas of the station at night, urinating on the floor.
Make something beautiful there, something worthy of NYC. I just wish Chris Christie had done his job and used federal money offered to him as governor to improve the rail tunnel from NYC into New Jersey. He turned it down for political reasons so he'd be more 'attractive' (not a word usually associated with Christie) to Tea Party nuts who don't want to spend money on public work. Typically of Christie, he didn't care that he was making life worse for commuters for years to come - it was all about his political career. What a selfish tool that guy is.
Make something beautiful there, something worthy of NYC. I just wish Chris Christie had done his job and used federal money offered to him as governor to improve the rail tunnel from NYC into New Jersey. He turned it down for political reasons so he'd be more 'attractive' (not a word usually associated with Christie) to Tea Party nuts who don't want to spend money on public work. Typically of Christie, he didn't care that he was making life worse for commuters for years to come - it was all about his political career. What a selfish tool that guy is.
78
None of these ideas are new... All this is will be a re-focus of efforts. That is a good thing and this needs to get done - but let's not pretend all these weren't planned and debated about for a long time.
1
Who designed the glass box shown in the renderings? It should not be reported as 'what Penn Station would look like', since there is no real design at this time. The rendering shows an idea that could be strived for, but not what the station would look like.
10
Actually the design rendered is a very bad one.
You need circulation space so the people exiting the station do not create a barrier to the people walking down 8th Avenue plus you need space for people to stand to get a taxi.
Since There are a lot of tourist in Newb York City who travel together who will be met at the station by tour buses you need a separate space for those buses.
You need circulation space so the people exiting the station do not create a barrier to the people walking down 8th Avenue plus you need space for people to stand to get a taxi.
Since There are a lot of tourist in Newb York City who travel together who will be met at the station by tour buses you need a separate space for those buses.
2
I'm glad to see that Gov. Cuomo is committed to improving a disgraceful situation that has been allowed to fester for far too long. That being said, what they should really do is move Madison Square Garden and rebuild the original Penn Station. A new station won't come close architecturally, and the post office isn't in the right location. Not going to happen, I know, but one can dream.
20
We New Yorkers have been hearing about a "new and improved" Penn Station for years, too many years to count. Cuomo didn't address how it will be paid for yet has all of these grandiose ideas. Shocking. They never should have torn down the original Penn Station modeled after the Baths of Caracalla. It was magnificent. As Yogi Berra would say, I'll see it when I believe it.
3
In looking at the full presentation:
https://www.governor.ny.gov/sites/governor.ny.gov/files/atoms/files/Empi...
The renderings of the Penn Station_Farley Post Office complex will evoke memories of the the Penn Station levelled in 1963. But, with modern flare between 7th and 8th avenue, 33rd to 34th Street.
Connecting both building under 8th Avenue to a large train hall, in the Farley Office Building would create a train room the size of Grand Central Station.
And in both buildings, and connecting concourses, natural light. Ending teh dank and dungeon like feel of the current Penn Station.
It is about time that someone, in political power, has come forward with the best vision so far for Penn Station. And, to undo the mistake made in 1963.
The governor's plan is grand, but something needs to be done, as it will only get worse, congestion wise. With the grand new station near the World Trade Center, and the major overhaul done at Grand Central a few years ago, it is high time that Penn Station gets the sorely needed upgrade.
By the way, Long Island is finally getting what it needs more track capacity on the LIRR as well as upgrades to republic Airport and MacArthur Airport. It is high time, for years people on Long island have subsidized the MTA, and saw very little invested in the infrastructure. OK, so they electrified the Port Jefferson line, other than that, LIRR is pretty much what is was when I left New York in 1974.
https://www.governor.ny.gov/sites/governor.ny.gov/files/atoms/files/Empi...
The renderings of the Penn Station_Farley Post Office complex will evoke memories of the the Penn Station levelled in 1963. But, with modern flare between 7th and 8th avenue, 33rd to 34th Street.
Connecting both building under 8th Avenue to a large train hall, in the Farley Office Building would create a train room the size of Grand Central Station.
And in both buildings, and connecting concourses, natural light. Ending teh dank and dungeon like feel of the current Penn Station.
It is about time that someone, in political power, has come forward with the best vision so far for Penn Station. And, to undo the mistake made in 1963.
The governor's plan is grand, but something needs to be done, as it will only get worse, congestion wise. With the grand new station near the World Trade Center, and the major overhaul done at Grand Central a few years ago, it is high time that Penn Station gets the sorely needed upgrade.
By the way, Long Island is finally getting what it needs more track capacity on the LIRR as well as upgrades to republic Airport and MacArthur Airport. It is high time, for years people on Long island have subsidized the MTA, and saw very little invested in the infrastructure. OK, so they electrified the Port Jefferson line, other than that, LIRR is pretty much what is was when I left New York in 1974.
15
When the deals are made in the wee hours, in a smoke filled back room somewhere, be sure to listen for the sound of things that go Trump in the night. He'll withdraw his bid for the presidency within the 90 day response window as this represents too much for him to sink his teeth into to ignore. I mean, it's huuuge! Really big! He won't be alone in wanting a seat at this exclusive table, I wonder how much Andy Cuomo will be charging for them.
The opportunities for graft are enormous. Expect all manner of barracudas, vultures and wolves to be scratching and sniffing around it. I know NYers will be paying for this 'till they bleed, but you can't get blood fro a stone, so how does he plan to pay for it all? Good luck NY, you're gonna need it.
The opportunities for graft are enormous. Expect all manner of barracudas, vultures and wolves to be scratching and sniffing around it. I know NYers will be paying for this 'till they bleed, but you can't get blood fro a stone, so how does he plan to pay for it all? Good luck NY, you're gonna need it.
2
The "Third Man" in the room keeps popping up in my head. Skelos, Silver all gone, is Cuomo next?
1
Please, please, please let this happen in a way that would make Daniel Patrick Moynihan proud. And in my lifetime...
29
Redevelopment of Penn Station is badly needed and would be welcome. The station, in it's current condition, isn't fit for a city of New York's stature. However, the more urgent need is for a new Hudson River tunnel and for an upgrade of the signaling infrastructure, both of which act as bottlenecks to increasing train capacity from the New Jersey side. As a frequent commuter, I would love to one day see a station on the west side to rival the elegance of Grand Central.
32
The two go together
2
I agree with the hope that a new Penn Station can be so grand as to hopefully ease the pain of knocking down the original. Surely a patron of the late Mrs. Onassis's stature could harness uber-wealthy friends to help fund the finest architecture to grace this new century? Why not aim high? The architects and builders of the first Penn Station did, and they achieved something we still admire today, albeit in photos only.
4
Just curious: where was the mayor amidst all this fanfare?
45
DeBlasio is not ready to be part of this kind of deal. He's still taking lessons from Hillary on how to bow to the banks.
1
Running late as usual no doubt.
Your curiosity doubtless pleases the governor to no end.
In excess of 85 percent of the population growth in the State of New York during the current decade has been in New York City. Yet, the Governor has shown remarkably little interest in funding the MTA, which is experiencing ridership levels unseen since the end of World War II. So at a time when Phase Two of the Second Avenue Subway will not start in the MTA's coming five-year capital plan, and there are no plans to expand subway service to growing areas of Brooklyn, Governor Cuomo has proposed spending $22 billion in taxpayer funds (much of that from downstate taxpayers) on upstate roads and bridges, including $700 million to keep drivers from paying the actual costs of using New York State Thruway.
Governor Cuomo is yet again showing a monumental failure in leadership in connection with mass transit in New York City, which this the economic engine of our state.
Governor Cuomo is yet again showing a monumental failure in leadership in connection with mass transit in New York City, which this the economic engine of our state.
104
For those of us who live with the economic restrictions placed on our development upstate by the NYC watershed, you have nothing about which to complain.
5
Mmm, new terminals & airports, you can just smell the billions in graft & kickbacks … good ol' NYS.
14
It would be wise to include in these plans the means to get where you're going in the city without paying an arm and a leg to a taxi or commercial ride company.
5
Fantastic news! Thank you, Governor Cuomo!
3
Now that we're talking billions of dollars, let's do the very best thing possible. Knock down MSG relocate it and knock down the discraceful office buildings too. And rebuild Penn Station. That's right. Rebuild Penn Station and expiate the sin of destroying it. Penn Station was originally built to mitigate the claustrophobia of crowded train travel. No plan will be as cheap or as successful as rebuilding Penn Station using the old plans. Cuomo wants to be as bold as his forefathers? Then do it like they did.
74
I believe this is the right idea. It would create a monumental piece of architecture in the center of Manhattan with an efficient traffic flow that cannot be improved upon. In Europe, they are rebuilding all kinds of old structures to the original plans. In Berlin, they are rebuilding, albeit with modification, the Kaiser's old palace. There is no reason not to rebuild Penn Station. While we're at it, let's rebuild the old concourse at Chicago's Union Station and build high speed rail between New York and Chicago (the exact same distance as China's new Beijing to Shanghai high speed rail) This would do a tremendous amount to bring America back and improve infrastructure to a large portion of the US population.
6
To do that, you have to buy out MSG. Which would be comically expensive. And rebuilding the old Penn Station wouldn't make it any more functional, it would just make it prettier. Which is fine and all, but you really have to ask yourself if you want to spend billions of dollars for aesthetics alone.
Demolishing 1 Penn Plaza is probably not an option, unless the state wants to take on the added burden of relocating all those companies. That said, you're dead right about MSG. Bloomberg wanted the Jets to move to the West Side Railyards. He should have moved MSG there. Then Penn Station would have as much natural light as possible AND we wouldn't have to endure the ocular atrocity that is Hudson Yards.
Penn Station will remain a dismal and uninspiring place for as long as Madison Square Garden sits above it. The Rangers and Knicks can go elsewhere. The decision to destroy the original Penn Station was an abomination, one largely driven by the inept and short-sighted management of the old Pennsylvania Railroad (which built the magnificent old station only 50 years earlier). Whatever comes of it, why would we still call it Penn Station?
46
It was loosing money and had been for years. The Railroad was responsible to shareholders which included a lot of pension funds (think widows) and some charities (think orphans) and a lot of regular Joes and Janes.
Preservationists could have bought the station had they come up with the money.
Preservationists could have bought the station had they come up with the money.
5
For the same reason we still call it the Chrysler Building.
It's history's permanently affixed moniker.
It's history's permanently affixed moniker.
1
Good point. Perhaps the state could buck the trend of naming big developments after corporations, strip the station of its now-defunct benefactors' name, and simply call it New York Station. What a concept!
Does the plan include a tunnel extension that would allow NJ Transit and Amtrak trains to continue to the East side? Ideally a link to Grand Central, but if not, an extension along 32nd Street to Park Avenue to give access to the No. 6 train would be very helpful.
9
You mean like move Penn Station over to Park Avenue?
No. Penn Station is just what its name says: a station. It is not a terminal. Extending the tunnels eastward beyond Penn Station under 32nd or 33rd street to Park avenue to meet the no 6 or even to 2nd avenue to meet the 2nd avenue subway, should it ever be built would be a major improvement for a lot of commuters.
1
All of those Amtrak and NJ Transit trains that currently occupy dozens of tracks and platforms at Penn Station would what, occupy one or two tracks and platforms at the 6 Train, or the same amount of tracks and platforms except in a newly built "Penn Terminal" there? It sounds like a brilliant idea, but I am just trying to get a fix on what that idea is exactly.
DREAMERS AWAKE I think that Cuomo's ideas sound intriguing, but I don't know enough about the particulars to address concrete points. That said, I believe that the idea of eliminating Madison Square Garden will meet with considerable resistance. What will replace it? Or should it even be replaced? If we're going to rely more upon public transit to lower our carbon consumption, then we must undertake radical improvement in trains. I'll be interested to see what locals have to say about Cuomo's proposals. I'm sure the commentary will be colorful and intense.
This doesn't call for eliminating MSG - just the small theater that is attached to it.
1
Penn station is a travesty....the proposal here seems, once again, just a ploy to give development contracts to businessmen who are buddy buddy with the crooks running the show in Albany and NYC without doing much but slapping a fancy new facade on the exterior. Cuomo, gimme a break.
Honestly, the entire structure should be razed. Having to travel through that rat trap is one of the single worst commuter experiences to be had in the entire world.
Honestly, the entire structure should be razed. Having to travel through that rat trap is one of the single worst commuter experiences to be had in the entire world.
75
Oh, no.
The Port Authority Bus Terminal is way, way worse.
The Port Authority Bus Terminal is way, way worse.
1
Have you been to the Black Hole of Calcutta?
How much did Brookfield & Extell donate to Cuomo? Now that they are interested.
"It went on too long". hmmm, what kind of behind the scenes deal is this when Cuomo's aide, Joe Percoco happens to just left the administration to go work for Madison Square Garden.
"It went on too long". hmmm, what kind of behind the scenes deal is this when Cuomo's aide, Joe Percoco happens to just left the administration to go work for Madison Square Garden.
6
FINALLY
2
Finally, this isn't even in the planning stage.
2
What's done is done. The original Penn Station was razed 50 years ago. Let's learn from our mistakes and not do it again. Thankfully Grand Central was saved from a similar fate, to the disappointment of the developers.
What we have there now at Penn is a dump, especially the LIRR section of the station. However moving the station across Eighth Avenue into the Post Office seems equally dumb as well, not to mention inconvenient. If we do this to get to the 7th Avenue subway you'll have to walk two blocks instead of one. To get to the 6th Avenue line the walk will be three blocks instead of two. Not to mention wasn't a ton of money just recently spent on renovating the New Jersey Transit section of the station? Are we going to raze that too?
This is what you do, spruce up what you now have and don't do dumb stuff like taking down a Penn Station-like structure again.
Another thing that should absolutely be done right now is to build a spur into La Guardia airport off the Port Washington branch of the LIRR just west of the Willets Point/Citifield station. That will provide quick, convenient, one-seat service from Manhattan to La Guardia. Forget about those dumb, wasteful, discreet AirTrain-like railroad lines. When the LIRR's east-side access is finally operational, a one-seat ride to LAG will be available from Grand Central as well.
They ought to do the same for JFK by building a railroad spur into the airport off the LIRR line that runs along Long Island's south shore.
What we have there now at Penn is a dump, especially the LIRR section of the station. However moving the station across Eighth Avenue into the Post Office seems equally dumb as well, not to mention inconvenient. If we do this to get to the 7th Avenue subway you'll have to walk two blocks instead of one. To get to the 6th Avenue line the walk will be three blocks instead of two. Not to mention wasn't a ton of money just recently spent on renovating the New Jersey Transit section of the station? Are we going to raze that too?
This is what you do, spruce up what you now have and don't do dumb stuff like taking down a Penn Station-like structure again.
Another thing that should absolutely be done right now is to build a spur into La Guardia airport off the Port Washington branch of the LIRR just west of the Willets Point/Citifield station. That will provide quick, convenient, one-seat service from Manhattan to La Guardia. Forget about those dumb, wasteful, discreet AirTrain-like railroad lines. When the LIRR's east-side access is finally operational, a one-seat ride to LAG will be available from Grand Central as well.
They ought to do the same for JFK by building a railroad spur into the airport off the LIRR line that runs along Long Island's south shore.
53
Oh no. People would have to walk one whole more block! The horror.
3
As long as the plan includes Rose's Pizza, I'm all for it. Penn Station should be the best transportation terminal in the world and this renovation is long overdue.
11
Reconstruct the old one. It wouldn't cost any more than Calatrava's debacle, and it would be far more useful and appealing.
35
I never did understand the extravagant expenditure on the new WTC terminal, basically just a PATH station and a stop on the 1 train (unless you count blocks long passageway dreariness to other lines as a transit hub).
Ugliest hole in New York City - a lot of us would be very happy to see it go.
27
The construction and operation of bridges, tunnels, airports, mass transit and the hubs that serve them have been a source of great wealth for many NY politicians, for a very long time. The tolls, at current levels, are pretty much legal thievery. The graft will flow, the back rooms deals will be made, and New Yorkers will pay, through the nose, again. The whole process is deliberately obscure, few details ever see the light of day. Now that Cuomo doesn't have to share with the other 2 who made up the "3 men in a room", he has that much more control over the flow of cash and favors.
Say what you will about Arizona, but all our projects are online, in painfully complete detail, down to plans, bidding and such. If that much daylight ever hit the vault of deals in NY, the line of "officials" waiting to go to jail would stretch from Rikers to Dannemora and back. Add in those in Jersey and all the MTA shenanigans and you'd be building jails into the next century. A good chunk of that money would wind up in back pockets as well.
Say what you will about Arizona, but all our projects are online, in painfully complete detail, down to plans, bidding and such. If that much daylight ever hit the vault of deals in NY, the line of "officials" waiting to go to jail would stretch from Rikers to Dannemora and back. Add in those in Jersey and all the MTA shenanigans and you'd be building jails into the next century. A good chunk of that money would wind up in back pockets as well.
24
Fast-track it and demand federal money to get it done. Other cities that are a fraction of the national economic engine that New York is have beautiful roads, embankments, access ramps and lighting, all helped along with federal Dollars. It's time for New York to demand its fair share. Oh, and as long as you're renovating, send the Dolans packing. They've been subsidized by taxpayers for long enough.
51
You are correct - but that's the problem with the senate... The senate gives equal votes.
4
Don't the Dolans still have a very long term lease on MSG?
Yes!...send the Dolans packing. They prosper and everyone else suffers.
1
May a future Penn Station be nearly as dramatic for arriving passengers as Grand Central Terminal was for me, arriving on Amtrak as a child in 1979. Madison Square Garden has had multiple homes and can certainly go looking for a new one.
20
Madison Square Garden is well located now. It's near everything, LIRR, NJ Transit, Amtrak, many subway lines, buses, not hard to get to by cab or car, plus nearby residents can walk there. What's wrong with that not to mention that it's considered by many to be the premier facility of its type in the country? Think all of that is easy to replace just so that we can have a grander space above the tracks of the station, most of which are the original tracks and platforms fro the old Penn Station? It's insane.
Where else are you going to put it?
Where else are you going to put it?
2
If MSG has to find another home, the city has to pay for it. That's now Eminent domain and regulatory takings work. Fair market value for MSG would bes several billion dollars.
You wanna pay that? Go ahead. But making Penn Station prettier for arriving passengers isn't really a good reason to spend that kind of cash.
You wanna pay that? Go ahead. But making Penn Station prettier for arriving passengers isn't really a good reason to spend that kind of cash.
Penn Station has been a disgrace to New York and the US.
67
Word.
A "Third World" train station to go with its "Third World" airport, LaGuardia...
2