I bought a condo in an old, wood construction building. Creaky floors, lots of sound transmission. My upstairs neighbors are up between 1-3 AM several times per week. That means I am up on their schedule. I don't hear much from neighbors on my floor, only above.
Had this been a rental, I would have moved long ago. Of course, nothing was disclosed by the previous owner.
After years of regularly getting woken up. I started researching and engaged a contractor to soundproof the bedroom. While the project is about half done, the improvement is amazing. All in, with permits and additional electrical work, the bedroom celiing will cost about $6000. Ridiculous, but what's the price of sanity?
Steps:
1. Existing ceiling taken down. Thank goodness no asbestos. What's in the ceiling cavity - NOTHING - an echo chamber. Further, there are furring strips attached to the joists contributing to the squeaking when someone walks on the floor.
2. Two layers of 5/8 fireproof sheetrock attached to the subfloor between the joists. The sheetrock overlaps to ensure no sound gaps.
3. All gaps on the sheetrock between the joists caulked. Smells bad and takes a long time to dry, given how much caulk has been applied.
4. Two layers of Safe N sound quiet insulation applied between the joists. can be found at Home depot. Not for temperature --- only impacts sound transmission.
Magic!!!!! Library quiet.
4
I live in a 2004 cheaply built apartment building in Midwood, never knew how much noise can affect your life. Outside noise was not an issue, it's the floor and ceiling that transmit so much noise. There was a toddler above that ran night and day that amplified so much noise, the parents couldn't understand what we were talking about when we complained to them. After one of our latest complaint they informed us that carpet was installed, we couldn't tell the difference. Likewise when we walk on the floor in the early AM the tenants below us would bang on their ceiling. I plan to buy into a newly built condo and making sure it's quite is key, I also look for buildings being built with concrete floors and stay away from ones that are not.
1
In New Zealand you can get government subsidies to reduce noise pollution in your home or rental. Mainly insulation in the walls and ceilings. Insulation seems to work for lots of kiwis, and the natural wool ones would be the best buy. I own an over 100 year old house and haven't bothered as you'd also need to put double glazing on all the windows and I don't want new metal window frames. My neighbours have double glazing in their windows and that shuts out the traffic noise.
There are lots of other factors that create noise pollution that the government doesn't seem to want to look at.
Allowing too heavy and big trucks on roads that are not designed for heavy traffic flow, is something the government is never going to change. Most older buildings that shake when big heavy trucks go by have foundations that were designed before big trucks were ever invented. Also, take a look at your roads and whether or not there is a metal manhole in the road that isn't the same level as the road, because when a big truck hits that, it causes your home to shake. This can happen during the night and wake you up. Big trucks are also very noisey and should pay a noise pollution tax.
Then your neighbours Hitachi heat/cooling pump, that is outside their house, 10 metres distance away from your house, can make a big humming noise and stop you from sleeping. I find it ironic that greenies and conservations promote these outdoor heat and cooling fans, when they cause noise pollution.
There are lots of other factors that create noise pollution that the government doesn't seem to want to look at.
Allowing too heavy and big trucks on roads that are not designed for heavy traffic flow, is something the government is never going to change. Most older buildings that shake when big heavy trucks go by have foundations that were designed before big trucks were ever invented. Also, take a look at your roads and whether or not there is a metal manhole in the road that isn't the same level as the road, because when a big truck hits that, it causes your home to shake. This can happen during the night and wake you up. Big trucks are also very noisey and should pay a noise pollution tax.
Then your neighbours Hitachi heat/cooling pump, that is outside their house, 10 metres distance away from your house, can make a big humming noise and stop you from sleeping. I find it ironic that greenies and conservations promote these outdoor heat and cooling fans, when they cause noise pollution.
When I bought my apartment, I was lucky to have my architect/DJ boyfriend help me with the renovation. He researched diligently, and we ended up ripping out the wall and ceiling, filling both with recycled blue jean batting, installing noise dampening tracks, and special drywall. We also installed batting and a rubber mat underneath the wood floors, and insulation around our front door. We did all this so as not to disturb the neighbors (we love electronic music and my now-fiancé has to practice his DJ sets) but it turns out it improved our quality of life, too. Our neighbors on one side like to have fiestas during the day with their sound system turned up to the max. I would have been able to sing along, if I knew Spanish. Now we just hear the walking bass line. Our friends who came over on New Years said they heard everyone's parties coming up the stairs except for ours! It's not perfect, but that $5,000 of soundproofing (materials labor) meant the difference between insanity and mild amusement - for both us and our neighbors. If you have the means, I highly recommend it.
3
In Vienna, silence and the rights of everyone to have peace and quiet are taken seriously. There is a law called "Nachtruhe" ("night peace"). From 10:00 to 6:00 every day and all day Sunday and holidays it is illegal to produce noise 10 db above ambient noise level. 8-10 and particularly 6-8 are often agreed as additional quiet (or at least "quieter") times.
Nachtruhe is valid for restaurants and cafes with street seating as well as residential property. It is particularly nice on Sunday to sit out in the yard and listen to birds chirp, as there are no lawn mowers or stereos. And this in a densely populated "worker's district" in Vienna. That is quality of life.
It is great to see so many comments from NY. Maybe you can get your own "Nachtruhe" law passed. I highly recommend it!
Nachtruhe is valid for restaurants and cafes with street seating as well as residential property. It is particularly nice on Sunday to sit out in the yard and listen to birds chirp, as there are no lawn mowers or stereos. And this in a densely populated "worker's district" in Vienna. That is quality of life.
It is great to see so many comments from NY. Maybe you can get your own "Nachtruhe" law passed. I highly recommend it!
6
New Yorkers seem to be gouged at every turn. Then, the NYT provides less than expert information to confuse things further. Case in point: the picture captioned "The space between the two walls will be filled with fiberglass batting." Fiberglass batting is very much not what you want to put into the space, especially when modifications like this are so expensive. Rock (mineral) wool of a specific density is what is needed and far more effective.
For many people, just using acoustic wall board in 4 x 8 sheets with equal size sheets of dense particle-board on top costs less than $3/square-foot and will absorb a huge amount of noise. These are available at any lumber yard, including the ones in Manhattan. I've converted a cacaphonous bedroom over a major commuter-traffic and red-lined ambulance artery into a near-silent sanctuary. Cost: $200 with 3/4 of that going to the acoustic consultant who steered me in the right direction.
For many people, just using acoustic wall board in 4 x 8 sheets with equal size sheets of dense particle-board on top costs less than $3/square-foot and will absorb a huge amount of noise. These are available at any lumber yard, including the ones in Manhattan. I've converted a cacaphonous bedroom over a major commuter-traffic and red-lined ambulance artery into a near-silent sanctuary. Cost: $200 with 3/4 of that going to the acoustic consultant who steered me in the right direction.
3
I'm curious (I realize this post is way old now) if you think this would work on blocking out impact noise (heavy footsteps and dropped items) coming from upstairs as well? Thanks
1
I live in an apartment building with thin walls. How thin? I can hear my next-door neighbors microwave ding. I hear her shower, her toilet, snatches of phone conversations, and her vocalizing. (She's an actress/singer.)
She's the noisiest neighbor I've ever had but not because of loud music, parties, or running kids. The big issue is I go to bed at 11 PM. She stays up to 2 AM.
Because of the thin walls, I hear her nocturnal activity, even the microwave. You can complain about loud music but you can't complain that someone's microwaving at 2 AM.
The only relief came when she went out of town. I'm happy to report that after five noisy years, she moved. To the other side of the country. New York.
She's the noisiest neighbor I've ever had but not because of loud music, parties, or running kids. The big issue is I go to bed at 11 PM. She stays up to 2 AM.
Because of the thin walls, I hear her nocturnal activity, even the microwave. You can complain about loud music but you can't complain that someone's microwaving at 2 AM.
The only relief came when she went out of town. I'm happy to report that after five noisy years, she moved. To the other side of the country. New York.
4
One point that I think needs to be made is that, for all of the well-meaning commenters recommending earplugs and white noise machines, people don't hear just through their ear canals. We hear also through the bone structure surrounding our ears, which is why that sort of hearing is tested in any comprehensive test administered by a medical professional. And some of us are bothered by patterns, soon noticing that the white noise machine emits not actual white noise, which would be made up of successive adjacent tones within a narrow range and selected at random, but a distinct loop of sound. The bone structure noise conduction is very important, in part because, no matter how great the earplugs are, one can still hear noise through vibration. Capturing this effect through the measurement instruments typically used by civic authorities is difficult, if not impossible.
4
Till age 40, I lived in cities in various parts of the United States and the world. I don’t recall having any problems with noise.
However, in 1992 when I moved into a neighborhood of (nice, middle class) single-family houses in my suburban Boston town, I encountered more noise than I ever had in the city.
The neighborhood was quiet enough in the winter. But come spring, the neighbors would start in with their loud, droning lawnmowers. In the warm months, I couldn't sit out on the deck and enjoy the warm weather. As soon as one neighbor's lawnmower stopped, another one began. And worse than the lawnmowers were the leaf blowers that emerged in the fall.
I now live in an apartment complex in the same town and find it much quieter than my old neighborhood. The lawn maintenance people come once a week at a set time. Their noise lasts for an hour or two, and then it's over for the week.
I never hear a peep from my neighbors, who are mostly Indians working in high tech. And we are far from the road. I love the peace and quiet.
However, in 1992 when I moved into a neighborhood of (nice, middle class) single-family houses in my suburban Boston town, I encountered more noise than I ever had in the city.
The neighborhood was quiet enough in the winter. But come spring, the neighbors would start in with their loud, droning lawnmowers. In the warm months, I couldn't sit out on the deck and enjoy the warm weather. As soon as one neighbor's lawnmower stopped, another one began. And worse than the lawnmowers were the leaf blowers that emerged in the fall.
I now live in an apartment complex in the same town and find it much quieter than my old neighborhood. The lawn maintenance people come once a week at a set time. Their noise lasts for an hour or two, and then it's over for the week.
I never hear a peep from my neighbors, who are mostly Indians working in high tech. And we are far from the road. I love the peace and quiet.
6
Thank you so much for bringing up the leaf blowers that are the source of not only ear-piercing noise pollution, but also air pollution. Paid landscapers in my area use these nuisances year-round, mostly, it seems as an alternative to properly bagging or mulching the grass clippings and/or piles of animal waste.
3
I felt the need to chip in here because of my experience of living on the ground floor of a poorly soundproofed condo for 10 years. For the first 5 years, there was a woman who lived above me (and began her laundry at 11.00 pm) with three small children who ran wild while she spent her time on the Internet looking for love. Amongts other things, said children jumped from great heights at any hour or in location throughout the day and there was no way to brace for the really loud booms. I could be fast asleep on a Saturday morning and then a BANG right above my bed would have me bolt upright, basically in fear, which is not a great way to start the day. I did investigate soundproofing but it was not practical under the circumstances but I did however find something that helped me to survive and keep me sane. It's going to sound trite, but while researching online, I came across a humorous article in Slate Magazine about earplugs, written by someone who truly understood my dilemma, and from then on I can block out most noise. The secret is in the type of earplug and the way to insert it for maximum benefit. Since then I am secure in the knowledge that at any time, I can block out most noise and have confidence that no big bangs are going to scare me awake. Google Slate and earplugs to read 'the sound of silence' and take heart, you too can have an oasis of quiet at any time. Bonus: the best earplugs are cheap!
4
My name is Alan Fierstein of Acoustilog and I was quoted in the article.
Noise problems are real and don’t only affect the rich city dweller. I get many calls from ordinary people and I always try to help. Tests and recordings are expensive, but the following ideas are free.
Audition a house or apartment before moving in. Ask neighbors about noise. Listen quietly without the broker talking. Check out the elevator, garbage chute, pets, musicians, door slams, and machinery. Look outside. Have a friend walk in the hall and upstairs. Get answers in writing, and check the "minutes". Sometimes sellers hide noise using tricks. More ideas are on my website.
There are noise codes which can be tested. If you have a noise problem, the owner of the equipment or building should pay for the tests and repairs. However, I often see tests done the wrong way – sometimes on purpose.
There are many myths about glue, special sheetrock, pre-war, concrete, and carpets. Is the "consultant" unbiased or does he sell materials?
Some technical errors in the article: 5 decibels is impossibly low, and tiny gaps are usually not the problem.
The NYC Noise Code did not deal with neighbor noise when I was advising the City Council about it in 2005, and I have requested a Code update. For example, I sent an idea to rein in booming car stereos.
Consideration is important - as I said in the article, sometimes all it takes is to demonstrate a sound to a neighbor, even a rich one!
Noise problems are real and don’t only affect the rich city dweller. I get many calls from ordinary people and I always try to help. Tests and recordings are expensive, but the following ideas are free.
Audition a house or apartment before moving in. Ask neighbors about noise. Listen quietly without the broker talking. Check out the elevator, garbage chute, pets, musicians, door slams, and machinery. Look outside. Have a friend walk in the hall and upstairs. Get answers in writing, and check the "minutes". Sometimes sellers hide noise using tricks. More ideas are on my website.
There are noise codes which can be tested. If you have a noise problem, the owner of the equipment or building should pay for the tests and repairs. However, I often see tests done the wrong way – sometimes on purpose.
There are many myths about glue, special sheetrock, pre-war, concrete, and carpets. Is the "consultant" unbiased or does he sell materials?
Some technical errors in the article: 5 decibels is impossibly low, and tiny gaps are usually not the problem.
The NYC Noise Code did not deal with neighbor noise when I was advising the City Council about it in 2005, and I have requested a Code update. For example, I sent an idea to rein in booming car stereos.
Consideration is important - as I said in the article, sometimes all it takes is to demonstrate a sound to a neighbor, even a rich one!
16
At the moment, I crave the stomping noise that used to drive me nuts in my old Manhattan apartment. I've relocated to the wilds of Jersey City, and life was reasonably quiet on my little dead end residential street until The Port Authority expanded the flight paths into Newark Airport. I believe the argument is "more people = more planes=more runways=more flyways". So the incoming planes have been roaring overhead EVERY 1-1/2 MINUTES since 7 a.m. It's now 12 hours later, so that's 480 house rattling planes, and they're still coming. Sometimes they'll continue until 1 a.m. They are so low and loud it's impossible to have a conversation with a neighbor in the front yard. It seems that this is a type of eminent domain. My home is plowed over. But the Authorities didn't use bulldozers. Extreme noise is a very potent homewrecker. Isn't "Home sweet Home" supposed to be part of the American Dream?
5
So many commenters do not address the basic issue, which is New York noise. Not how lovely it is to live somewhere else, in the country, in a small town. Your description of living on a rural road in Iowa doesn't help us here in NYC.
In my neighborhood, we're directly across the East River from the Wall Street Heliport, which has 60,000 flights a year, Then there are the police helicopters which hover over the Brooklyn Bridge at 6am...
Many buildings in this Landmarked neighborhood are being repointed or renovated. This all generates unwanted and sometimes overwhelming noise, often starting early in the morning. Then there are the garbage trucks, which come by at 4am.
In my neighborhood, we're directly across the East River from the Wall Street Heliport, which has 60,000 flights a year, Then there are the police helicopters which hover over the Brooklyn Bridge at 6am...
Many buildings in this Landmarked neighborhood are being repointed or renovated. This all generates unwanted and sometimes overwhelming noise, often starting early in the morning. Then there are the garbage trucks, which come by at 4am.
6
Great article....and comments....thank you.
Need a similar one on the other bane of apartment living - NEIGHBOR'S COOKING ODORS and the experts who are available to mitigate it.
Recommendations?
Anyone.
Need a similar one on the other bane of apartment living - NEIGHBOR'S COOKING ODORS and the experts who are available to mitigate it.
Recommendations?
Anyone.
3
"NEIGHBOR'S COOKING ODORS and the experts who are available to mitigate it.
Recommendations?"
You could force them to put in a vent fan to the outside. Or you can buy some surplus water proof hatch doors from a surplus Navy ship and either force them to tighten a seal between their apartment and the hallway or put them on your apartment and seal yourself in. You could replace the neighbor with one who cooks food you like smelling. Sorry, my Grandmother has passed on. Neighbors loved the smell of her cooking. Or encourage someone to move in who likes lots of cats.
I've lived on the first floor of apartments and condos my entire adult life and have learned to live with the noise. Until recently I'd been lucky in having considerate neighbors. After a decade of living in my current condo, a woman bought the unit above mine and then installed a washing machine over the bedroom without any insulation at all. The condo rules expressly forbid the installation of these machines (it's a very old building and noise travels easily), but she blew off the rules and the Board won't do anything about it. The Board has been in the process of changing the rules, I think mostly because 2 board members also want to install washing machines. Needless to add, they are totally unsympathetic (they are also a little afraid of my neighbor because she has threatened to sick her lawyer boyfriend on them in the past). The noise and vibrations are driving my crazy, especially because my neighbor does over a dozen loads of laundry per week. I've tried polite notes, had her over for coffee, begged, pleaded, banged on the wall, complained to the Board. Nada. I can't afford a lawyer, so I guess I'm doomed.
7
If you haven't done this, consider inviting the board members into your condo to actually hear the noise and feel the vibrations. That might make some think twice about allowing their own adjacent neighbors to have the machines installed, at least without some noise mitigation measures.
1
Thanks for responding, Kathleen. One of the Board members did exactly that and couldn't believe what I (and another owner) had been going through in terms of noise and vibration. I think she was over-ruled by other Board members, some of whom are real estate agents who believe that our property values will improve if we can install washing machines in our units rather than just use the collective ones in the basement. I'm not entirely sure what is going on but I am starting to suspect it is an issue of property-flippers versus long-term owners, but I could be wrong about that.
1
Interestingly, the price of property doesn't have any correlation with how quiet the dwelling. I have an $80k condo that I redid about 10 years ago. Sound transmission was a major consideration when we remodeled it. As a result, HVAC is silent, fridge is silent, and I never hear my neighbors. The garbage truck once a week is about the only unwelcome intrusion.
The costs to do this were minimally higher (<10% more) than regular construction. HVAC used a 2-stage AC, hugely (3x) oversized ductwork & (2x) registers to reduce the velocity of air. (I'd install an inverter mini-split today) Fridge is a $1400 Samsung inverter-compressor fridge, so the compressor runs at a very slow speed almost 24/7. Windows were selected for their noise reduction properties and all gaps around the windows and penetrations were heavily filled and sealed. Interior walls were insulated.
For comparison, I recently sold a $6M house in Florida. The lightweight wood floor & roof joists transmitted every single noise: human, nature, and mechanical. Absolutely unbelievable that such a large, expensive property was built so poorly. If any of the ACs were running, you heard it throughout the house. The expensive built-in refrigerators could be heard throughout most of the first floor. Sure, it had touch-pad lighting and granite everywhere, but the noise made the house unlivable.
I'll take silence anyday. Study recording studio designs.. plenty of info on the 'net, even DIY.
The costs to do this were minimally higher (<10% more) than regular construction. HVAC used a 2-stage AC, hugely (3x) oversized ductwork & (2x) registers to reduce the velocity of air. (I'd install an inverter mini-split today) Fridge is a $1400 Samsung inverter-compressor fridge, so the compressor runs at a very slow speed almost 24/7. Windows were selected for their noise reduction properties and all gaps around the windows and penetrations were heavily filled and sealed. Interior walls were insulated.
For comparison, I recently sold a $6M house in Florida. The lightweight wood floor & roof joists transmitted every single noise: human, nature, and mechanical. Absolutely unbelievable that such a large, expensive property was built so poorly. If any of the ACs were running, you heard it throughout the house. The expensive built-in refrigerators could be heard throughout most of the first floor. Sure, it had touch-pad lighting and granite everywhere, but the noise made the house unlivable.
I'll take silence anyday. Study recording studio designs.. plenty of info on the 'net, even DIY.
6
This article made me wonder how much NOISE that the sound proofing contractors were making to sound proof... This is so New York...
1
My downstairs neighbor has a neurotic dog that barks non stop the moment she leaves. Even with my windows closed I can hear the piercing desperate shriek of this abandoned hot dog(forget the breed's name). this went on for a while.
Finally after leaving her a note and getting no response, I knocked on her door
and explained the situation and how my heart rate actually increased.
She had no idea it was happening, as the dog was silent when she was home.
She apologized and now puts a muzzle on him before leaving.
I'm lucky she is so accommodating and a great neighbor.
Finally after leaving her a note and getting no response, I knocked on her door
and explained the situation and how my heart rate actually increased.
She had no idea it was happening, as the dog was silent when she was home.
She apologized and now puts a muzzle on him before leaving.
I'm lucky she is so accommodating and a great neighbor.
1
Too bad she's not a better dog owner! A person whose solution to this particular problem is simply to put a muzzle on the dog the entire day every day is someone who should probably not own a dog. The dog deserves better.
13
That is animal abuse.
6
As long as the muzzle is the type that allows the dog to drink it should not be a problem. However, the dog is bored and does need another outlet & probably much more exercise!
I, too, live beneath a couple who recently replaced their entire apartment floor with ceramic tile, and didn't bother to put any kind of underlayment. The noise is pretty bad, but what can one do?
My advice to all condo and coop owners...check your bylaws and establish construction standards to mitigate the noise problems caused by cheap construction.
My advice to all condo and coop owners...check your bylaws and establish construction standards to mitigate the noise problems caused by cheap construction.
5
A good start is not to move into any place that doesn't have concrete floors.
That leaves out any buildings built before the 20th century, and large portions of the world. My mother lived in a building with concrete floors: you could hear the smallest sounds transmitted via her ceiling.
4
Bill Geist did a segment one time in which he visited a church in the hinterlands where the parishoners were making pledges not to complain for 2 weeks, and if they broke that vow they'd have to start over again. Geist said, "In New York we'd call that a ban on talking." That's what some of these comments remind me of!
8
I lived in the city and the noise, back in the early 1990's, was terrible. But my husband and I managed to solve the problem. We moved to New Jersey. Goodbye noise, goodbye cockroaches, and goodbye black soot that managed to come through double pane windows. I get my fill of the city from 9 to 5 every weekday.
7
I'm a native New Yorker who gave up city life in 1983.
Reading this in my house on 2 1/4 acres of land, hard by a national forest, the only noises we hear at night are from whippoorwills, owls, coyotes, crickets, and the wind. Sure, I can't run down the block to pick up a newspaper or a pizza. But, what is the price of a solid night's sleep, or the solitude of your own thoughts?
"I tell you all the lights on Broadway
Don't add up to an acre of green.
And I'm gonna be a country girl again."
-- Buffy Sainte-Marie
Reading this in my house on 2 1/4 acres of land, hard by a national forest, the only noises we hear at night are from whippoorwills, owls, coyotes, crickets, and the wind. Sure, I can't run down the block to pick up a newspaper or a pizza. But, what is the price of a solid night's sleep, or the solitude of your own thoughts?
"I tell you all the lights on Broadway
Don't add up to an acre of green.
And I'm gonna be a country girl again."
-- Buffy Sainte-Marie
9
The city is safer and cleaner than it was in the bad old days. But one thing has not changed, or gotten worse: Noise.
Garbage trucks wheezing like 747's, car horns shrieking at the slightest delay,
subway stations can make you deaf, as trains roar into the station, firetrucks, and ambulances never ending sirens. All can make your head feel like it's going to explode, if not make you deaf-and I'm already deaf in one ear and it's too much.
In my rent stabilized apt. 10 years ago I invested in a 2nd set of windows to place over the existing ones, and it's the best home improvement I've made. Still the noise never stops.
Garbage trucks wheezing like 747's, car horns shrieking at the slightest delay,
subway stations can make you deaf, as trains roar into the station, firetrucks, and ambulances never ending sirens. All can make your head feel like it's going to explode, if not make you deaf-and I'm already deaf in one ear and it's too much.
In my rent stabilized apt. 10 years ago I invested in a 2nd set of windows to place over the existing ones, and it's the best home improvement I've made. Still the noise never stops.
10
In speaking to a professional soundproofer two years ago, he was honest and kind to tell me on the phone that he was receiving many calls from NYC residents in 'tears and on pills', there was little he could do, except to tell us to save our pennies. It is not always easy for some of us to escape from a comfortable nest, now a loud battering 'cage' and move to the joys of a peaceful 'tree-house'.
Speaking on behalf of other birds of a feather, renewing my appreciation to the New York Times for placing this article on 'Noise' on the front page on a 'quiet' day.
'Noise-sufferers', send me your kitchen appliances, 101 Dalmatians asleep, the sound of musical horns from your neighbors, it will be my pleasure to cope with these (I once slept quite well in the bath tub), and let there be weekly Town Hall meetings, our City officials will take heed of this growing health threat, they will not try to insulate these, or wait until we have gone quietly bonkers and resorted to the whiskey bottle.
This is the time to make 'Noise' and come up with viable solutions, this article is the beginning.
Speaking on behalf of other birds of a feather, renewing my appreciation to the New York Times for placing this article on 'Noise' on the front page on a 'quiet' day.
'Noise-sufferers', send me your kitchen appliances, 101 Dalmatians asleep, the sound of musical horns from your neighbors, it will be my pleasure to cope with these (I once slept quite well in the bath tub), and let there be weekly Town Hall meetings, our City officials will take heed of this growing health threat, they will not try to insulate these, or wait until we have gone quietly bonkers and resorted to the whiskey bottle.
This is the time to make 'Noise' and come up with viable solutions, this article is the beginning.
3
Would love to know how you did it and is it legal.
I live right next to US Highway 1, with my bedroom facing it. I also installed a second set of heavyweight sound-reducing windows, done by a company which manufactures them. It was expensive. At first I still had to use a "white noise" emitting sound machine to make me relax enough to go to sleep, to have confidence that there would not be a problem later in the night. I have to explain, though, that I had recently moved from a quiet house in the country to this city condo, so my adjustment needs were tremendous. After several years I realized I could drop using the sound machine, and I did so. I also had a talk with my next door neighbor, whose noise from her computer game at 2am would bass boom through our common wall and my second bedroom wall. I simply told her about this and also said that my friend who visits in the evening to watch TV is deaf in one ear (all true), resulting in our turning up the TV to overcome the street noise in the living room (living room has no noise reducing windows for now.) She was very nice and no more 2am computer game noise. I am also now contemplating more new, stout, windows. I also have turned off the ringer on the phone in the room where the neighbor's bedroom is on the other side of the common wall and use earphones when I run a video on my computer in that room.
1
Persistent ambient is bad for our health. It is a form of stress. Many buildings and homes are not properly insulated to dampen noise to save on building costs and are built to minimum standards. It shouldn't be up to purchasers to install sound dampening materials for homes and condos. Our rental apartment building has many deficits in this regard. The hallway carpeting has no under padding over the plywood hallway. We can hear the sound water running because there is no insulation in the walls. Voices from units filter into the hallway because the doors are metal encased and are not sealed against sound and cooking odours. If repairs are being done we can hear all the banging and clanging. We can hear doors slamming shut whenever people enter or leave their units. Builders should be required to install sound proofing materials but it seems they are be allowed to ignore this issue.
V
V
11
Whoops...it should say ambient noise...
1
At the first hint of spring in Manhattan seems as though the jackhammers arrive like migrating birds who stay through the fall. We've all seen the 20-ton truck lift it's gate to reveal a single 10 pound package for delivery. Cabbies from foreign lands where the constant use of the car horn is considered a higher form of communication...the list goes on. A lifelong NY'er, I recently visited London, a city booming with construction but not with noise. Change will only come when it is demanded by those who can't afford to hire acoustical engineers but would also like the "luxury" of peace and quiet.
15
Every genuine native New Yorker knows that the horn is a communication device. It's that or sign language. Yelling out the car windows doesn't work as well as it used to. Apparently the cars are soundproof nowadays...
1
" Apparently the cars are soundproof nowadays..."
The cars are not soundproof but the driver is with the earphones plugged in listening to music and/or talking on the telephone.
What I learned from this article is that neighboring noise gets amplified in small holes and there are 2 different sources airborne and vibration. Rugs do little to ameliorate especially area rugs. Thin double pain windows and wobbly framing and "holes in the common floors, façade, and walls" are hidden from the prospective buyer or renter. Different apartments may or may not have the same issue depending on factors, like adjacent to elevator. I had more honesty with a hilton hotel reservation than from my home inspector as to where to get a quiet nights sleep. Actually my govt coop enforced noise violations more than private one. The fault is in the construction codes on old and new buildings as the article, which emanates from the framing. I will never live in any building again that has any wood lathe construction. I can hear noise from the basement level. I have has this problem in the recent 2 apts I lived in. Vicious management says go buy a house if you don't like the noise. The article should give us in addition the names of acoustical engineer home inspectors who can test the framing before one moves into a hell hole. One obvious tip is if the building is not level and if the walls are not all cinderblocked or double walled. Concrete floors are not enough.
6
I once loved crowds, noise, excitement. But no longer.
The older I get (AARP denizen, here) the more I want silence.
Is it that way for everyone as we age?
The older I get (AARP denizen, here) the more I want silence.
Is it that way for everyone as we age?
10
I'm only 40 and my craving for silence knows no bounds.
18
Even as a teenager I craved silence.
I stood in awe of some of the mansions I'd visited and how silent they were.
My own bedroom is almost an anechoic chamber. Between the construction, heavily-padded carpet, and heavy wall & window coverings all you hear is your own heartbeat, which can be unnerving at times.
I stood in awe of some of the mansions I'd visited and how silent they were.
My own bedroom is almost an anechoic chamber. Between the construction, heavily-padded carpet, and heavy wall & window coverings all you hear is your own heartbeat, which can be unnerving at times.
3
I think you get that way. You've spent your entire life thinking for someone else (job, children, committees) and it's nice to just to be able to think about things that interest you at your new point in life. I stepped down from leadership to have more time for myself. I had to quit a church because they wouldn't find people to replace me and continued to call me even after I quit.
I gave of myself for most of my life. It's time to keep a little bit more of me...for me.
Here is a relatively inexpensive method to insulate your sheet rock [drywall] walls against transmitted sound, either airborne or vibration borne. Simply add another layer of 5/8" rock over the existing wall, and use ONE tube of Green Glue squirted out of a large caulking gun behind EACH 4 X 8 sheet of the new rock. Attach the new sheets with drywall screws, and stagger the sheets so that the taped joints of the original wall are covered fully by the new rock. The Green Glue remains flexible forever, preventing vibrations from traveling through the now thickened wall. Of course, you will have to pull your original wall's electrical boxes out 5/8" so that they are not recessed, no biggie, and fill all cracks around them and between the bottom of the sheet rock and the finished floor with Green Glue caulking compound before adding baseboard. The added mass of the wall plus the Green Glue will significantly reduce noise coming through the walls. If you really want it even more quiet, take the original drywall off and staple 3.5" insulating between the studs, and then replace with two layers of 5/8" rock plus Green Glue. The ultimate in quiet would be to build a new stud wall of 2 X 3's parallel to the original wall so that the two walls do not touch and there is an air gap between them. Then add all the other things I mentioned. I recently used this complete method, and one can shout on one side of the wall and it is imperceptible on the other side of the wall. Try it.
10
I think it is time to invent "the sleeping chamber," a noiseless dark compartment within the bedroom. Maybe it should be portable! It would have to work in a hot climate so the central air conditioning duct would be attached to it.
Or a sleeping "helmut." No noise, no light.
Or a sleeping "helmut." No noise, no light.
You can also fill the gap between walls with spray in expandable foam. Drill a hole at the top of the old wall and fill the space before putting in the sheet rock. There are different types. Get one for soundproofing.
1
I've been in a pre-war building since 1979. With the exception of a now-grown recalcitrant teen with enormous speakers, noise between apartments was never an issue until a greedy company bought the building and started shoddy "renovations" to (illegally) de-regulate units. During my first thirty-plus years here, I never heard a sound of any kind from my upstairs neighbor. Since the new flooring went in upstairs, footsteps are loud enough to sound as if they're in my own apartment.
8
Ah! Wonderful New York City or most any city where people are all in a twit about noise. There is no such thing as quiet in your cities, never will be. Your only hope for quiet in the city is to remove yourselves from the "in the city" part of the equation. You can throw all of your money at this but you should remember that massive noise is a defining part of city life and if you don't like it your only recourse is to "get out of town".
11
A properly engineered space can be dead silent in the middle of Midtown, and it doesn't always require expensive fixes.
I was building professional broadcast and recording studios in my teenage years and still do some on occasion. I've taken the knowledge from there and used it in my own home remodels, as well as some consulting for offices and homes of others. The office building I work at is directly next to twin 800kW generators for the phone company. Running or not running, we can't tell in our conference room where we built a room within a room. I think it was an extra $2-3k to do it.
I was building professional broadcast and recording studios in my teenage years and still do some on occasion. I've taken the knowledge from there and used it in my own home remodels, as well as some consulting for offices and homes of others. The office building I work at is directly next to twin 800kW generators for the phone company. Running or not running, we can't tell in our conference room where we built a room within a room. I think it was an extra $2-3k to do it.
4
Dead silent indeed! That is your answer to the roar of the city? I live in a forest where I am Inspired by the rich quiet of nature. Please keep your three thousand dollar silent death and don't bother bragging about your pathetic accomplishment.
9
Noise pollution will become more of issue as the population increases.
The sounds that un-nerve me is the back up beeper on commercial vehicles and the incessant heavily bass induced garbage coming from cars. Since when is driving around with ear splitting music in a vehicle ok? There ought to be a law. I am only guessing emergency sirens can't be heard over that cacophony called music. Or maybe that's why sirens are so high decibel? Either way stop the noise emitting from stereo systems you can hear from blocks away and rattles your home's windows in passing. Enough.
The sounds that un-nerve me is the back up beeper on commercial vehicles and the incessant heavily bass induced garbage coming from cars. Since when is driving around with ear splitting music in a vehicle ok? There ought to be a law. I am only guessing emergency sirens can't be heard over that cacophony called music. Or maybe that's why sirens are so high decibel? Either way stop the noise emitting from stereo systems you can hear from blocks away and rattles your home's windows in passing. Enough.
21
Wow! That's a lot of money that could be saved if neighbors just started being considerate of each other!
14
Many building departments do not enforce their building codes when it comes to impact noise. You can check your new residential buildings ASTM E1007 test by asking your developer or the building department. Many condominiums in the United States are never field tested before the actual certificate of occupancy is issued. Many condo boards approve hard surface floors using underlayment data from lab tests and not actual unit field tests. I know of no underlayment that will beat carpet padding and carpet. It is very important to ask your board what their IIC requirements are for the building. If they don't have requirements of IIC 60 or greater you might want to look elsewhere unless your want to deal with the experts in this article.
2
I live in a 1970s concrete co-op. In 1999, a vibration noise began in my apartment. It was hellish for me, but only seemed to bother women (who are more sensitive to this type of noise, I later read). Four years later, the board finally agreed to hire Cerami, recommended by an HVAC expert I know. Cerami measured for what is called 'tonal' noise levels (NOT decibels - tonal meter measures hertz). They found the levels in my apartment borderline for a violation, and the top floor apartment levels in violation. Cerami recommended an exhaust-out type of rooftop fan, but the board went with just packing the duct. It helped, but did not completely resolve the noise. Now, it's started up again in force. This time, I will pay for the test myself and insist that the board install whatever the engineer recommends. I'll pay for that, too, if need be. It's worth it.
6
Tell your city council members to support a bill that provides for ordinary citizens to use cell phone cameras--with volume on--as admissible evidence after successfully capturing close-up video of horn-blowing scofflaws' hands as they press the center of the wheel. Record the plates in the same pass. Combine with stiff fines for the perps.
3
Wow. I have never experienced any problems like these. I cannot imagine what a whole city full of complaining people...with money could be like. I live on a very busy street, one of the busiest in my tiny town, and the occasional police,fire or ambulance is the most I have to worry about. My son is a jazz drummer, I play the violin, I have 3 dogs that bark occasionally, I imagine I would be sued into moving, if I lived in in many of these places I am reading about. I suppose if a person can spend 200k to make a place more quiet, they must have other issues I am not aware of that drive them to do so.
I am so thankful to live in a semi-normal place where kids can be loud and music can be practiced without paying extra fees or some such to pacify neighbors with attorney privileges. I know that in my home state of California, there are places where a person cannot vacuum after a certain hour, or a person can't use a blow dryer or other household appliances that are loud. That too seems ridiculous to me so I know it isn't just New York City. I believe it is money driven and people who have more cash, seem to feel like they deserve a little more peace and quiet and they can back it up. Us poor folk are loud;)
I am so thankful to live in a semi-normal place where kids can be loud and music can be practiced without paying extra fees or some such to pacify neighbors with attorney privileges. I know that in my home state of California, there are places where a person cannot vacuum after a certain hour, or a person can't use a blow dryer or other household appliances that are loud. That too seems ridiculous to me so I know it isn't just New York City. I believe it is money driven and people who have more cash, seem to feel like they deserve a little more peace and quiet and they can back it up. Us poor folk are loud;)
5
A terrific article....now....CAN ANYONE (including Mr. Furchgott) point me to a similar one on neighbor's cooking odors.....There's been a fair amount written over the years - NYT, etc - on objectionable and unreasonable cooking odors but I like to see it all pulled together including how one goes about objectively measuring such odors for the purpose of documenting same which can be used in negotiating a solution with the offending neighbor?
4
I would honestly be a basket case without my ear plugs.
14
The WORST noise pollution in New York City come from outside the absolutely unnecessary and ever present both Fire Dept. and hospital ambulances that for NO good reason blare their ear shattering sirens which are unnecessary and accomplish nothing useful except in very unusual circumstances which is the only time they should be used. Rather these ambulance drivers are noise junkies addicted to the sound of those sirens.
If we had a Mayor who cared about noise pollution all it would take is a directive from City Hall telling ALL ambulance drivers to ONLY use those sirens in very unusual circumstances. If we had a brilliant Mayor he would name a Commissioner for Noise Reduction.
If we had a Mayor who cared about noise pollution all it would take is a directive from City Hall telling ALL ambulance drivers to ONLY use those sirens in very unusual circumstances. If we had a brilliant Mayor he would name a Commissioner for Noise Reduction.
7
@AH2: Part of the issue is that the drivers of these emergency vehicles have, in most cases, suffered hearing loss due to their sirens, so they feel it's necessary for the sirens to be EVEN louder (b/c the siren is not loud enough, to their damaged hearing) - and so it goes, in ever escalating noise levels.
4
I prefer to let the profesionals decide if their sirens are necessary. They are in the life-saving business after all.
6
@ObservantOne: If you believe that all sirens are truly necessary, I have a bridge to sell you.
3
“I could hear their dogs breathing,” she said. “I could hear their dogs peeing on the floor upstairs.”
Cost $24,000.
Only the upper swells can afford to build houses within houses. The plebs will have to grin and bear it, and try to catch a few naps at work. They get little at home.
Cities have become essentially crowded chicken cages. The misguided notion that skyscrapers somehow save the environment is a terrible tax not only on human but animal well fare. Government policy replaced the untidy (think habitat for little critters) small holder with corn and soybean mega farms--a great diversifier of what is not poisoned with chemicals. A small house on the plains may seem crude in Manhattan, but lying awake waiting for the next dog tinkle is small comfort even on a silk bed. We need an animal roaming rights bill for humans.
Cost $24,000.
Only the upper swells can afford to build houses within houses. The plebs will have to grin and bear it, and try to catch a few naps at work. They get little at home.
Cities have become essentially crowded chicken cages. The misguided notion that skyscrapers somehow save the environment is a terrible tax not only on human but animal well fare. Government policy replaced the untidy (think habitat for little critters) small holder with corn and soybean mega farms--a great diversifier of what is not poisoned with chemicals. A small house on the plains may seem crude in Manhattan, but lying awake waiting for the next dog tinkle is small comfort even on a silk bed. We need an animal roaming rights bill for humans.
4
“I could hear their dogs breathing,” she said. “I could hear their dogs peeing on the floor upstairs.” I find that hard to believe, and if the dogs really were peeing on the floor the noise would be the least thing I'd worry about if I were underneath them. As for the toddlers, they'll pass through that stage soon enough.
1
Rubber, neoprene, vinyl, all materials-should have a date by which they will be known to degrade, because they all do. Very nice article, great work by these people. And amazing. You could just get a loft in the fur district.
3
I'm surprised there was no mention of efforts to reduce airplane/helicopter noise. Planes are flying lower and more frequently thanks to NextGen. Helicopters are by far the loudest and anyone living along the Hudson/East River is subjected to incessant noise. Anyone along the choppers' routes to the Hamptons are also subject to considerable noise. Real Estate agents are now very aware of the noisy areas and homes/apartments in affected areas hold lower valuations.
Sadly this appears to be another example where the wealthy will be to insulate themselves from the stress inducing noise that the 99% are forced to deal with on a daily basis....
Sadly this appears to be another example where the wealthy will be to insulate themselves from the stress inducing noise that the 99% are forced to deal with on a daily basis....
8
Interesting article on what people have to do to get peace and quiet. If you can afford it, I can't blame someone for spending the money for this.
We choose the simpler solution; don't live in the big city.
We choose the simpler solution; don't live in the big city.
8
America, where everyone gets to live in substandard housing. Seriously, we seem to have slipshod code standards, and virtually no enforcement. Why do so many tolerate such abysmal conditions? Vermin, mold, filth, noise, danger, etc. are all too common in the USA. Maybe it is time to start building homes like they have in northern Europe, where even refugees have better housing than rich Americans.
13
Gas powered leaf blowers decent on our neighborhood in suburban Long Island every day, including Sundays and holidays for 10 months. You cannot sit outside for more than a half an hour before a landscaper comes by and powers up his back back leaf blower and moves every last blade of cut grass into the stratosphere. Although there are noise regulations in the books, the town refuses to enforce them. What suggestions does the author have for us?
34
@Peter Cee, this is the worst noise polluter here, too. And because of the weather, we don't even get a two month break from lawn blowers here.
5
I lived in Europe for five years. There, quiet is valued and most follow the many rules governing the protection of individual acoustic zones in all types of living situations: house, apartment, etc. This extends into the streets and into public places such as restaurants where talking so that the entire restaurant is aware of your conversation will get you a reprimand from he waiter. The list goes on and on. What is implicit in this article is that NYC lacks the social contract that is essential to a civilized city in that neighbors care about the quality of life of OTHER neighbors. Sadly the American contract consists of this language: I can do what I what, when I want and if you don't like it sue me. Hmmm, I wonder where the stereotype "Ugly American" comes from?
69
Well put CMuir and absolutely true. In Spain where I spend a lot of time, many apts. face an interior courtyard, where sounds echo loudly. However, the unwritten code is that by 11PM, at the latest and often earlier, people either close their windows or if not, keep very very quiet. It's remarkable and really speaks to what you have referred to, the social code of shared living space.
The only time I saw that code violated was when 2 AMERICAN women would squawk all night, as the neighbors barked at them to shut up.
The only time I saw that code violated was when 2 AMERICAN women would squawk all night, as the neighbors barked at them to shut up.
6
After 30 years in Brooklyn, the first 15 on the top floor of a brownstone, the last fifteen on the first floor of a different brownstone, I moved to the country. The noise from the apartment above me, which had three different owners during that fifteen years, was a large factor. The last owner who came home from work and threw her boots on the wood floor above my head did me in. That was it, I moved.
22
Me too. To North Dakota.
6
I grew up in NYC in the 60's and 70's, left, and returned five years ago. The biggest noise-related change are those deep, emergency sirens. To me, their wail sound like a kid loudly pouting to get his way. And the vehicles are frequently stuck in traffic and move slowly, so their wailing goes on for a while. Yes, the wail penetrates, so all other drivers are aware of this. But I think the sound is too loud and too penetrating and could use some modificiation.
The other big noisemakers are motorcycles without mufflers. I get that noise in their case helps other drivers hear them, and so makes motorcycle riding safer. But can't there be a limit on how loud they can get in city limits, especially when motorcyclists travel in packs?
The other big noisemakers are motorcycles without mufflers. I get that noise in their case helps other drivers hear them, and so makes motorcycle riding safer. But can't there be a limit on how loud they can get in city limits, especially when motorcyclists travel in packs?
5
Loud motorcycles are loud because their owners deliberately want to degrade life for everyone. If you think I'm overstating, read the explicit ads in the biker magazines.
16
My solution is to get out of "Dodge." I'm moving to a small NM city where in my naturally soundproof adobe house, all I'll hear are the birds, falling raindrops and the blowing wind--and maybe a brief passing police siren in the distance. You can't have everything, but as a born and bred New Yorker, who's lived and worked here for 40+ years, I've had it with street noise and the awful squeal of subway trains coming to a stop. The noise will remain but I'm oughtta here.
8
Some of those streets do not have up to date sewer lines.
When I was in the Navy I lived one time in a barracks at a school command. People need silence when they are trying to study. Guys with loud stereos were given the word : headphones only, no loud-speakers, no exceptions.
4
Move to Portland. There is no noise here because the building codes require sound proofing. There are experts who specialize in soundproofing structures built in the 1800's. It's not rocket science. NY is probably the noisiest city in the US. I was visiting my uncle who lived at 37th and 2nd Ave in the Hendrick House in Murray Hill. He had been there for 50 years. You could hear every siren, door, car screech, toilet flush, closet door close...garbage truck, etc., And he as up 4 floors. One morning I complained about the noise and he said, Oh...I didn't hear a thing".
12
They don't build them like they used to - 2 layers of brick, NO insulation, lathe and plaster means my neighbor can have a band in her backyard right outside my bedroom window and I won't hear a sound. Newer construction is garbage. Our houses are only 6 feet apart and the windows were probably installed in 1903.
13
Not true as I've discovered after the fact. Even a 100 years ago, construction was sometimes shoddy. I've lived in several 100+ year old buildings. Some were constructed with thin interior and exterior walls while others were built like a fortress. I wish it was that easy to use the age of the building to determine the quality of the construction (and thickness of the walls), but it's not. I learned the hard way.
7
I live in a townhouse condo built in 1939, with plaster and lathe walls, and share one wall with a neighbor. The noise from outside is negligible: solid brick construction and double-pane replacement windows take care of that. Unfortunately the shared wall is not so great. The plaster is solid enough -- try to bang in a picture hook and the hammer is likely to bounce back and fracture your skull -- but I can hear her on the phone (she's looking for a new job), she wears shoes in the house (although less frequently, once I asked her not to), and she likes to microwave her food. I assume she knows equally interesting details about me. Fortunately, she's single, no kids, no argumentative spouse/partner/boyfriend, no barking dog, and no obsession with Black Sabbath at 1 am. I hope she never, ever sells.
6
The growing menace of noise to one's health is abetted by the NYC agencies' absence to update regulations negatively affecting residents from street events.
Do you know that any business/candidate/religious organization/promoter who wishes to apply for an event can do so with SAPO(Street Activity Permit Office) and then go to the Police Precinct and pay a few bucks to get a sound permit for amplified speakers?
Do you also know that there is NO decibel limit on that permit?
Do you know that there is NO realistic and timely enforcement..because there is
NO standard...NO penalty...and an abject disregard of those who are forced to relinquish their hope for a neighborhood warranty of habitability?
Pedestrian plazas such as the Ft Greene Fowler Plaza implemented by the NYC Economic Development Corp & the Dept of Transportation to create Business Improvement Districts-multiplying like fecund rabbits- are ground zero for amplified noise-with NO oversight and NO constraints...just like those street fairs in which mind blowing -deafening "music" is justified by the holy grail: the quest for business.
Time to own this missing link...get the noise amplification levels under control...
Noise in New York is the Number One Quality-of-Life Complaint.
Do you know that any business/candidate/religious organization/promoter who wishes to apply for an event can do so with SAPO(Street Activity Permit Office) and then go to the Police Precinct and pay a few bucks to get a sound permit for amplified speakers?
Do you also know that there is NO decibel limit on that permit?
Do you know that there is NO realistic and timely enforcement..because there is
NO standard...NO penalty...and an abject disregard of those who are forced to relinquish their hope for a neighborhood warranty of habitability?
Pedestrian plazas such as the Ft Greene Fowler Plaza implemented by the NYC Economic Development Corp & the Dept of Transportation to create Business Improvement Districts-multiplying like fecund rabbits- are ground zero for amplified noise-with NO oversight and NO constraints...just like those street fairs in which mind blowing -deafening "music" is justified by the holy grail: the quest for business.
Time to own this missing link...get the noise amplification levels under control...
Noise in New York is the Number One Quality-of-Life Complaint.
43
Thank you! Events in the park across the street blast stadium level volumes for hours. Cops say, no violation. Yet the DEP has set decibel limits for outdoor and indoor events. No one is enforcing them.
Community boards issue permits but there's no oversight. They claim it's up to the Parks Dept., and vice-versa.
Can't tell me that when my windows shake and eardrums burst, it's not violating me and my neighbors. This random event process has to change, and soon.
Community boards issue permits but there's no oversight. They claim it's up to the Parks Dept., and vice-versa.
Can't tell me that when my windows shake and eardrums burst, it's not violating me and my neighbors. This random event process has to change, and soon.
6
Actually, neighbors have been the BANE of my existence for around 25 years! Upstairs kids stomping around. Use of power drills at late hours. How about 4 continuous hours of HAMMERING to put down a carpet? Was losing my MIND. Also early morning hammering above my BEDROOM. Loud concerts from the park across the way from me.
As a life long New Yorker, I GET that the city is noisy and readily accept bus noises, sirens, and loud people on the street. But loud and disrespectful neighbors make me NUTS. Either they don't understand how much noise travels or they just don't care. I suspect the LATTER.
As a life long New Yorker, I GET that the city is noisy and readily accept bus noises, sirens, and loud people on the street. But loud and disrespectful neighbors make me NUTS. Either they don't understand how much noise travels or they just don't care. I suspect the LATTER.
65
Suzinne
It is no laughing matter and cold comfort when one hears from a friend or two 'how can you live like this?'. One of mine, now living for years in a comfortable, well-run building, years ago used to be woken up by a couple above at 2:00 a.m. having a battle of pots and pans. She ended up in a court of law where the judge sneered and asked 'can you prove that they are throwing cutlery at each other? How do you know that it is a pot?'.
She was able to move, the couple eventually got evicted. Let us hope that one can do better than just hanging on to one's 'comfort zone', and at 'Home' where most of the wildest incidents take place on occasion. A friend called last week from California on a working tour, asking that I rush to her apartment, the batteries of her smoke detector had gone off, and the neighbors in her small building were planning to knock down her door.
Waiting for invisible loud room-mates to grow up and go to the school of manners can be a long noisy proposition, one that would test the patience of a saint.
It is no laughing matter and cold comfort when one hears from a friend or two 'how can you live like this?'. One of mine, now living for years in a comfortable, well-run building, years ago used to be woken up by a couple above at 2:00 a.m. having a battle of pots and pans. She ended up in a court of law where the judge sneered and asked 'can you prove that they are throwing cutlery at each other? How do you know that it is a pot?'.
She was able to move, the couple eventually got evicted. Let us hope that one can do better than just hanging on to one's 'comfort zone', and at 'Home' where most of the wildest incidents take place on occasion. A friend called last week from California on a working tour, asking that I rush to her apartment, the batteries of her smoke detector had gone off, and the neighbors in her small building were planning to knock down her door.
Waiting for invisible loud room-mates to grow up and go to the school of manners can be a long noisy proposition, one that would test the patience of a saint.
10
Not much you can do. If it's really bad you can report them to the nypd via 311 for a non-emergency response.
http://www1.nyc.gov/nyc-resources/service/1197/noise-from-neighbor
http://www1.nyc.gov/nyc-resources/service/1197/noise-from-neighbor
1
It's true that when you complain to your landlord or your development's security, they have to CONFIRM the noise that you are indeed hearing. Sometimes this is not possible, and that only adds another layer of frustration.
4
"This fall, after $2,000 of the padding was installed under the rugs, the sound downstairs went from a measurement of 30 decibels to 5 decibels.
“It was the difference from the sound of a starter pistol to that of a car door closing at a distance,” Dr. Schnitta said."
Sorry; but that makes no sense. 30 decibels is close to no noise at all. 10 decibels is the noise a person makes breathing. 5 decibels is the noise a dead man makes.
It's important to remember that all these people are selling their expertise.
https://www.chem.purdue.edu/chemsafety/Training/PPETrain/dblevels.htm
“It was the difference from the sound of a starter pistol to that of a car door closing at a distance,” Dr. Schnitta said."
Sorry; but that makes no sense. 30 decibels is close to no noise at all. 10 decibels is the noise a person makes breathing. 5 decibels is the noise a dead man makes.
It's important to remember that all these people are selling their expertise.
https://www.chem.purdue.edu/chemsafety/Training/PPETrain/dblevels.htm
31
Yeah, I wondered about that. But a quote is a quote. The speaker can say that the sky is green and grass blue, and if the reporter gets the words right it is still a good quote. Perhaps it was left to float there, in challenged, for just the reason you state: people will say whatever sells their services.
Human speech hovers around 60 decibels (my mother-in-law's maw approaches 120), and a starter pistol' sound blast is said to be that of a .22, which would make it a momentary 140. So the speaker simply made all of that up. Quite revealing, that.
Human speech hovers around 60 decibels (my mother-in-law's maw approaches 120), and a starter pistol' sound blast is said to be that of a .22, which would make it a momentary 140. So the speaker simply made all of that up. Quite revealing, that.
7
Anyone who knows much about noise abatement would agree with this comment. My God, if only we had 30 decibels to worry about. . . .
4
To be charitable, the consultant might have been thinking of how much the noise was reduced, rather than the absolute level, which, as you point out, is silly. Or, to be less charitable, there's snake oil in that particular business.
2
In my co-op, we coined the term "Your acoustical space". That means, each resident must keep personal noise "within the confines of one's own apartment". Each resident is responsible for sound insulation of the unit lived in, either through learning to live quietly or through sound insulation. The concept: I am NOT responsible for paying to stop YOUR noise. I pay for my apartment and you do not have the right to take my acoustical space, which is just as real as visual space. To be clear, we made parallel to the visual views available from one's apartment windows. The resident above may not hang a cloth over a lower apartment window, removing the view. Similarly, a resident in a neighbor apartment may not usurp the quiet of another apartment without paying a rental fee for use of "acoustical space". Once the logic was clear, quiet began and no fees were ever paid. I suggest taking the concept of "Your acoustical space" to the board of your co-op or condo association. Our building went from noisy to calm and quiet. And I was thanked by several residents who had put up with annoying noise for over a decade.
121
@DK: Please tell me where you live; I'd love to move into a building where the board and tenants are that sane. Seriously.
8
The "over 55" senior condo is very common here. Some of them are brand new and relatively expensive. I think that noise from young neighbors is why they are so popular.
2
Oh dear God, this is such a solution to the selfish neighbor problem. Thank you.
2
I have lived in this apartment for 40 years. When my kids were small they did make some noise but nobody seemed to mind. Later, when my husband I were alone, after the kids had left, somebody kept sending police to our apartment complaining that we were rolling bowling balls in the living room an making the walls shake with our powerful Hi-Fi. At the time we were spending a quiet evening playing chess. Now, I am alone in my apartment and yet someone seems to think that I am up to no good. I get anonymous notes slipped under my door complaining that I and my room mates are making somebody very sick by smoking after midnight. ( We have never smoked.) I love living in New York so I passed the note on to the police. I do have some nervous feelings about my fellow apartment dwellers. Otherwise I feel really good about living here.
13
I live in a building in upper manhattan that was constructed in 1908. The walls between me and my next door neighbors is two bricks thick and the floors are wooden beams with poured concrete.
I own a 1977 Marantz 2385 receiver which puts out something like 200 watts per channel, and huge Polk audio speakers. I can play music at 80 dB at 11pm and the 70 year old Spanish lady who lives downstairs from me won't hear a thing (we've tested it).
I see these photos of new construction with only sheetrock between apartments and wonder why anyone bothers to build like this these days. In a building with tiny apartments, why would anyone not put something more substantial in the walls between units?!
I own a 1977 Marantz 2385 receiver which puts out something like 200 watts per channel, and huge Polk audio speakers. I can play music at 80 dB at 11pm and the 70 year old Spanish lady who lives downstairs from me won't hear a thing (we've tested it).
I see these photos of new construction with only sheetrock between apartments and wonder why anyone bothers to build like this these days. In a building with tiny apartments, why would anyone not put something more substantial in the walls between units?!
101
Exactly right- old buildings don't have these issues. That's why all the people profiled are in new "luxury" construction. The quality is terrible. You have to put brick or concrete between all walls and ceilings/floors. Anything else is shoddy. Case closed.
1
Sheetrock, if applied in multiple layers, can block sound vibrations very well. Of course a single layer of thin sheetrock is another matter--it will tend to flex and so will transmit sound easily.
Not all old buildings were built with thick walls. I know this having lived in a few very old buildings (as old as your building) that were not constructed with thick walls. I wish it was categorically true that all old buildings = thick walls.
5
It's a huge problem - earlier this year I was staying in a fabulous room in a fabulous hotel in Riga, Latvia - great view etc etc from my level 5 room... Until I found that the people above me - on level 6 (the top floor) - walked about almost all afternoon and evening... It was a dull vibration that earplugs could not dampen, and made an afternoon nap or going to bed before about midnight impossible. Normally I always ask for a top floor room, and stay in hotels with carpets... timber floors look great but are terrible in hotel situations... Oh, the other absolute disaster in a hotel is to be in a room that has a door thru to the adjacent room... family rooms, they are called. Well, I am single and love SILENCE above almost all else!
15
Julian F,
Your visit to the hotel in Riga, and the dull vibration that no pair of ear-plugs has been invented can put to bed, is reminiscent of living with the ongoing sound-track of Jurassic Park above one's head.
Your visit to the hotel in Riga, and the dull vibration that no pair of ear-plugs has been invented can put to bed, is reminiscent of living with the ongoing sound-track of Jurassic Park above one's head.
1
Timely article.
Inexplicably, my wealthy but ditzy neighbor has a yard crew come twice a week--even in the winter. Nothing is growing in the winter.
Even more inexplicably, Saturday is one of their scheduled days. So, every Saturday when everyone is home from work, we're all treated to an hour of leaf-blowing mid-morning.
I feel like a little old lady (I'm not yet 50) complaining about it but this, and the fact that she lets her Escalade "warm up" in her driveway for 30 minutes every morning is driving me crazy.
It's so thoughtless.
Inexplicably, my wealthy but ditzy neighbor has a yard crew come twice a week--even in the winter. Nothing is growing in the winter.
Even more inexplicably, Saturday is one of their scheduled days. So, every Saturday when everyone is home from work, we're all treated to an hour of leaf-blowing mid-morning.
I feel like a little old lady (I'm not yet 50) complaining about it but this, and the fact that she lets her Escalade "warm up" in her driveway for 30 minutes every morning is driving me crazy.
It's so thoughtless.
64
Worst thing about living in NYC, in my opinion, is the sirens.... Can't ambulance sirens be lowered and still be effective?
5
No. An ambulance siren has to be heard by all the vehicles in front of it. Cars themselves are soundproofed pretty well, so the siren has to penetrate that.
5
Sorry, Patrick. Believe me, I am a big proponent of keeping unnecessary noise down in the city especially when it comes to loud speakers and public events and the infernal helicopter noise that plagues my neighborhood -- but when it comes to ambulances and fire trucks, etc. -- I'll take the blasting anytime if it is helping to save someone's life.
7
Now if there was only something that could be done about the smells...
13
Try this http://febreze.com/en-us
@FSMLives! I don't understand your comment ... please explain.
2
Amen to that. I called the fire department once, thinking I smelled a gas leak. It turned out to be my neighbor's strange cooking aromas.
Good idea for an article, NYT.
Good idea for an article, NYT.
4
I prefer the nonexistent external maintenance of condos and apartments. But excessive noise from above, below, or the side has closed that option for me. Because I can, I live in a separate home where neighbor noise is not a problem. With nary a blade of grass in a xeriscaped lot, I got the solution.
But care is still required to be a good neighbor. When I added A/C to a new furnace system, I learned that new outside units are much quieter than they used to be (also much bigger and more efficient). I also found a Kevlar product that wraps around the (helical, not piston) compressor to reduce noise further. My neighbor on his deck, maybe 50 feet away, says that he cannot hear it at all.
But care is still required to be a good neighbor. When I added A/C to a new furnace system, I learned that new outside units are much quieter than they used to be (also much bigger and more efficient). I also found a Kevlar product that wraps around the (helical, not piston) compressor to reduce noise further. My neighbor on his deck, maybe 50 feet away, says that he cannot hear it at all.
8
Over the summer I replaced my 27 year old central air conditioning. The new compressor is much quieter and more efficient than the old one, same for the air handler. The old compressor was so loud you could hear it as you walked up the side of the house, not so with the new one.
1
Now, YOU sound like a good neighbor. Much respect.
2
So comforting to know that there are soundproofing solutions to make over-the-top apartments that are purchased for millions habitable. Why do I think this might lead to a big tax deduction or credit for the owner? If NYC building codes were beefed-up and enforced, this added cost would not be necessary. But I have a partial solution that points elsewhere. Let's keep motorcycles and unmuffled diesel engines out of New York City. It can be done and it would be constitutional. You don't have a "right" to disturb and endanger the health of hundreds of thousands of New Yorkers.
15
We finally spoke to the couple upstairs and offered to buy padded bunny slippers for the one who rises at 3 a.m. (takes all kinds) and seemed to slip on clogs. They moved their furniture around, took off the clogs, and we get safe, and restful sleep, sleep, sleep. We bought them a very nice bottle of wine. Sometimes, if you are lucky, all you have to do is ask.
59
I had good luck asking my new upstairs neighbors. I wrote them a note asking whether my late night phone call disturbed them since the building is not as sound proof as it might be. And asked them to tread a bit more lightly. Worked like a charm.
11
MEH,
You are a lucky camper!
You are a lucky camper!
3
Mine did nothing not even put a pad under whatever they drop at all hours. Matter of fact the board threatened me for even asking them to do something after 12AM. I let the police dept handle it in my town.
3
Anyone who's lived in a city has stories like this. It is nice to know that sound engineers can actually satisfy some of those who are willing to pay through the nose for it. Me, I gave up city dwelling after a stint in Tokyo, where cheap construction and population density added up to little sleep.
6
The worst of the noise is the toilet flushing and over excited couples in bed. Generally in apartments, there is a noise absorption floor underlay that needs to be installed, which needs to be made mandatory. This floor underlay for 1000 sq.ft apartment costed me 2000 dollars inclusive of installation (albeit 5-6 years back). Also Hunter douglas and several other firms also have acoustic ceiling tiles as well which can be used.
4
For those who can't afford the solutions discussed in this article, help is at hand: Macks silicone ear plugs, (about $5 for 6 pair; I use a pair for about 5 days, before discarding.) When used correctly, they reduce sound by several decibels. They are a god-send on planes with crying babies. You can still hear sound, but it is greatly diminished.
10
Ear plugs + over-the-ear headphones are my choice for airplanes. Almost bliss.
1
I live beneath a condo that was renovated about two years ago by some get rich quick real estate flippers. They ripped up the old wall to wall carpeting and added the most inexpensive hardwood floors they could buy, installed at the cheapest price by a contractor who apparently never even suggested a sub floor or absorbent under layer. I am now privy to every footsteps, sneeze, conversation and even moments of passionate love making as well every other move of my upstairs neighbors and their two hyperactive cats. To add insult to injury, the husband is the type who likes to pace incessantly while screaming into his cell phone. It's like living under an Irish step-dancing studio.
43
Silence. It would not be kind to steal the thunder from Dr. Arlene Bronzaft, an environmental psychologist, endorsed for her work on 'Why Noise Matters' by four New York City Mayors, having taken up the banner to find ways to put an end to this loud nightmare. You will find her on the web with some helpful tips, and this does not include a man who wrote that he had moved thirty-three times.
A friend of many years was visited by her neighbor because she was pounding some walnuts to make a holiday pastry. 'Send her here', I roared, and 'she will have died out loud four years ago!'.
It is blissfully quiet as I write, at a costly price for this moment of serenity, to thank Roy Furchgott, Pietro Cicognani, Bonnie Schnitta, countless others mentioned in this article, offering some viable solutions on soundproofing noise in one's home.
In this Season of learning to Give, my appreciation to our City Representatives for lending their ear, a note of affection for my 'Barbar and Céleste', to a woman I once worked for, the winner of a peace award, in her memoirs she slept through an earthquake at school, and farewell to the bright lights of the City, wishing you all a peaceful New Year.
A friend of many years was visited by her neighbor because she was pounding some walnuts to make a holiday pastry. 'Send her here', I roared, and 'she will have died out loud four years ago!'.
It is blissfully quiet as I write, at a costly price for this moment of serenity, to thank Roy Furchgott, Pietro Cicognani, Bonnie Schnitta, countless others mentioned in this article, offering some viable solutions on soundproofing noise in one's home.
In this Season of learning to Give, my appreciation to our City Representatives for lending their ear, a note of affection for my 'Barbar and Céleste', to a woman I once worked for, the winner of a peace award, in her memoirs she slept through an earthquake at school, and farewell to the bright lights of the City, wishing you all a peaceful New Year.
1
How about first getting rid of our antiquated, early morning sound generating trash trucks, Mr Mayor? They are truly disgraceful. We should see how great they are in Germany. And how about the deafening screeching subways?
6
The NYC subways are old technology, which is part of the problem. Installing all welded rails mounted on resilient pads can be done, and will help some (the express line opposite Lincoln Center is an example), but you are still dealing with steel wheels on steel rails--not a recipe for silence. Changing the system over to rubber tires, like Montreal has, would be very costly, as all of the lines would have to be rebuilt.
2
The trash trucks hydraulic mechanisms will always make noise. You should ahve been around when everyone had metal garbage pails.
3
Listen up, Madigan, it is only going to get louder. Not all of us are planning to move to Geneva where it is prohibited in some buildings to take a shower after 10:00 p.m. for fear of hearing from one's respectable neighbors on the above.
2
Lived in a Queen's apartment. Upstairs kids (title) clomping about driving me crazy; so I took to banging a broom against the ceiling whenever their noise started. Eventually got into a fist fight with the parent. Moved to suburbia as soon as could afford.
Ok, I guess - still had to suffer the endless drone of leaf blowers. But got much worse when a neighbor's teenage brat took up the electric guitar and set his amp to '11'. That's when I learned there are basically no legal restrictions on making disruptive day time noise. Help!!!
Ok, I guess - still had to suffer the endless drone of leaf blowers. But got much worse when a neighbor's teenage brat took up the electric guitar and set his amp to '11'. That's when I learned there are basically no legal restrictions on making disruptive day time noise. Help!!!
8
Doh! On the open view of windows..there's a reason blinds and curtains were invented. In my own 55 and over neighborhood with patio homes, freestanding ranches are separated from the neighbors blank walls by a patio that all rooms look onto. Reminds me of beach condos. With 0.1 acres or less and the most privacy I've had since living in Fairfield, CA in the late 60's where all houses were separated by 6 foot redwood fences.
1
In my condo from hell where the neighbors put their toddler's basketball hoop on my adjacent wall, I took off the dry wall to discover nothing. A not to code faux wall without a fire block. It is always worth looking behind the wall for that fire proof reason if nothing else. The rest of the condo problems were not so easy. Bad construction goes a long way.
6
I got very interested in trying to adjust the sound in a basement room that was for music listening, and was next to the room with the furnace and washer/dryer. As stated in the article, some stuff is really interesting. I found that a strip around the door made a huge difference, and also that some sounds would take a fortune to fix.
The other thing I learned and will never not deal with is this: a room that is too reflective of sound, with too many hard surfaces, makes it much harder to hear human speech. It ends up a bit too reverberant. Just adding a couch that absorbs sound, or hanging a few panels, makes the room much easier to speak in.
The other thing to note: another solution is to add noise. Whether a white noise generator or just letting more of a hum in, the sound of a faucet dripping in a quiet house will drive you nuts, but the same sound in a coffeehouse is not distracting. Whenever things are too quiet, I find there's always a distracting sound, and the solution for me has become adding back in some sound, somehow.
Thanks for the great piece on a wonderfully interesting topic!
The other thing I learned and will never not deal with is this: a room that is too reflective of sound, with too many hard surfaces, makes it much harder to hear human speech. It ends up a bit too reverberant. Just adding a couch that absorbs sound, or hanging a few panels, makes the room much easier to speak in.
The other thing to note: another solution is to add noise. Whether a white noise generator or just letting more of a hum in, the sound of a faucet dripping in a quiet house will drive you nuts, but the same sound in a coffeehouse is not distracting. Whenever things are too quiet, I find there's always a distracting sound, and the solution for me has become adding back in some sound, somehow.
Thanks for the great piece on a wonderfully interesting topic!
14
Adding one's own noise is a good solution. Neighbors dogs barking incessantly? Turn up the Beethoven, or the composer of your choice. Youtube Music can be really useful in helping to block out the noise of the neighbors. I work at home, and use it frequently.
Silence is my drug. I get up early in the morning just to enjoy
13
The city of New York should consider ending a tradition, the tolerance of constant honking of car (and truck) horns. Horns meant for emergency warnings at high speed on an interstate highway are blasted at midnight on Second Avenue for thousands of people to hear, simply because a driver is impatient. If we sat in front of some of these drivers' homes in the quiet suburbs and blasted a horn at midnight, they might see just how wrong that is. In the meantime, the police should apply the law, which bars the use of horns except for emergencies.
3
I'm listening to my neighbor's sub woofer as we speak. The low frequency thud those things emit is almost impossible to escape, even if I don't hear anything else from his apartment. The sound proofing is good, yet the 40hZ rumble remains. I have to think subs are a significant problem for other apartment dwellers.
23
In some cases, mounting a subwoofer on rubber feet or pads can help a lot. This reduces transmission of low frequency vibrations through the cabinet to the floor.
4
Totally agree. The walls between units in my building block most sound, but they are no match for stereos. I get stereo noise from both sides. It's the main reason I'm planning to move.
3
Oh, the problems of the 1%.
How terrible.
My heart goes out to them.
What a joke.
How terrible.
My heart goes out to them.
What a joke.
1
It can be an issue for anyone with neighbors directly overhead, underneath, with adjoining walls or next door!
15
So, if I add thousands of pounds of materials for EACH apartment in a buidling, and let's say everyone in a specific building does it, at what point does the building collapse from the additional weight? Just asking....
8
This article could have spent more time on noise solutions that didn't cost, I don't know, thousands of dollars. Most people with noise problems probably can't throw thousands of dollars to fix the issue.
42
There is an ever-escalating war between soundproofing and pop culture. Back in the 60's, people listened to their Rolling Stones records with 10-Watt amplifiers. In the 70's, domestic sound systems often had 100 Watts. Nowadays, Sony offers a home system with 3,000 Watts for just $999. Maybe more should be done to cut the noise at its source.
15
The quietest apartment I have ever been in was in Yekaterinburg, Russia. It was in a multi story building made of reinforced concrete. You might as well have been in a cabin in the woods. In the summer, the party-hardy Russians would play loud music in the park below my windows and I could hardly hear them unless I was in line with the window. A small fan overwhelmed what noise did get through off the window axis.
12
If my COOP BOARD on West 57th Street - between 8th and 9th Avenue would enforce carpeting rules - this wouldn't be a problem for me. Alas.
13
I lived in an old-fashioned penthouse apartment on the UES many years ago. It was a walk-up from the top elevator floor. Over on Third Avenue was a newer building with an air conditioning unit from a rock concert. I couldn't believe how loud it was, so I called 311 and lo and behold the city came out to inspect the noise. I honestly never thought they would. The deciblel level test demonstrated that the A/C unit was excessively loud and it was turned off. I never had another problem with that again; until I couldn't sleep because of the water pump on the roof of the building for my neighbor's terrace plants and toilets. It's always something.
10
Had a client for whom we had to pour sand in between the walls! A LOT of sand. Worked tho. Pretty cheap, by comparison.
3
Thanks for such a well done article, it's a very handy introduction to the science of sound transmission and management in city buildings. I just wanted to point out that the spray foam in the first photo was applied to an exterior wall--in this application it would be good to ensure that the foam is a type (closed cell) that doesn't allow water vapor to pass through and condense underneath it during cold weather, otherwise mold is a possibility.
18
For people of limited means, I recommend mechanical sound conditioners. They sound like fans and the better ones have several frequencies. I live on a busy road, have noisy neighbors and the main road has night construction four nights a week. I've slept through it all.
28
Agreed! Earplugs and a $25 white-noise machine allow me to always get a good night's sleep. I recommend them to everyone!
3
In my former apartment, at 53rd and First, I put the A/C on "FAN," almost every night I lived there, so I could sleep. When I had the windows open and was on the telephone, friends would ask me if I was calling from the street. I always knew when it was Friday night--it was noisier.
The A/C at the current apartment, adjacent to the construction of the Second Avenue Subway, has no such setting. The noise were are enduring in our apartment is probably life-threatening. I have almost forgotten what it is like to sleep through the night.
The A/C at the current apartment, adjacent to the construction of the Second Avenue Subway, has no such setting. The noise were are enduring in our apartment is probably life-threatening. I have almost forgotten what it is like to sleep through the night.
1
Yet another article bemoaning the problems of wealthy property-owning Manhattanites. How about some advice for those of us whose landlords won't even let us paint the walls? Soundproof an apartment without so much as applying a piece of tape to the walls/ceiling/floor/anything. Sounds like a more interesting challenge.
12
Never heard of a landlord who would not let you paint as long as you repainted before leaving.
4
I live in a 19th century rent-stablized walk-up and the only sound I hear are my neighbors' music from across the gangway in the summer when I have the windows open. All the newer "luxury" buildings cut corners on quality construction in favor of stainless steel appliances and digital light switched. But, really, if you want absolute quiet, NYC is not for you. The patina of NYC noise is my life's soundtrack
22
Regan wrote, " if you want absolute quiet, NYC is not for you."
I agree! The other day I sat in our old Maine farmhouse reading a book about mindfulness. It suggested that I put down the book and really listen... identifying each noise I heard.
I listened. After a few minutes a cat ambled across the rug toward me and I heard... purring. That was it.
I can take NYC only in rare, tiny, calibrated doses.
I agree! The other day I sat in our old Maine farmhouse reading a book about mindfulness. It suggested that I put down the book and really listen... identifying each noise I heard.
I listened. After a few minutes a cat ambled across the rug toward me and I heard... purring. That was it.
I can take NYC only in rare, tiny, calibrated doses.
7
You have to wonder why anyone who is sound sensitive even lives in a place as cacophonous as NYC. It's amusing to think of someone wealthy enough to cobble together several apartments having the desire to create his "own little world." I thought that's why people moved to places like New Jersey or Connecticut.
I once lived a floor below -- the floors being bare hardwood -- an enormous man who snored so loud that my ceiling shuddered with each intake of breath. Because I was a renter, I had no choice but to bear it. After some time, though, it became an almost soothing sort of white noise.
I once lived a floor below -- the floors being bare hardwood -- an enormous man who snored so loud that my ceiling shuddered with each intake of breath. Because I was a renter, I had no choice but to bear it. After some time, though, it became an almost soothing sort of white noise.
14
Why should I move - just for noise? I love this city and would never live elsewhere. My noise problems are solved and it didn't cause that much effort or money to "Go Acoustic".
Its not that I dont like noise. In fact, I love he hustle and bustle of the city Noise. What I dont like is hearing in in my apartment when reading a book, or sleeping late,
Its not that I dont like noise. In fact, I love he hustle and bustle of the city Noise. What I dont like is hearing in in my apartment when reading a book, or sleeping late,
4
My noise comes from the apartment below in a house turned into several apartments. Not all part of the apartment are as noisy, but their kitchen in under our bedroom. I think it is the heater grills on the floor that are the noise conductors. I can hear their voices as if they were next door. It is hell. Quiet is such a blessing, particularly at night.
6
Thank you, once again, for keeping us updated on the problems, and expensive solutions, of the 1%.
6
I'll tell you one more - Billionaires in Palm Beach have to deal with the neighbors' lighted tennis courts and the sound of tennis balls being wacked about all evening. Talk about lawsuits!
In my building in Manhattan, the problem lies mostly with two groups, 30 somethings and their need to operate as a roving dorm. The idea of being independent in New York and to explore new experiences is gone. These young people continue college in their new apartments. Who has 20 people over for drinks and a football game in a studio apartment? Who would want this? The other group, I'm sorry to say is people with kids. They feel kids absolve them from any criticism. "I have kids" is the angry reply, as if that entitles you to disrupt the world. I'm a really easy going guy and take most of it in stride. But we are in a culture of entitlement, and parents of all economic classes created a self victimization in their kids that in adulthood makes them thoughtless, rude, demanding and selfish neighbors. No consideration, zero. If I must go further, young women are the worse. They've been told they are special and they believe it. Horrible. I'm building a house and soon won't have to deal with any of this ugliness.
36
"young women are the worse"?
No, you should not have gone further.
Outta bounds dude, outta bounds.
No, you should not have gone further.
Outta bounds dude, outta bounds.
I was apartment shopping (to buy) and looking at a lot of new "luxury" buildings. Soundproofing my 1st question was always met with blank stares or don't knows from the sales reps / real estate agents. Nor could they tell me why a "luxury" apartment costing of $500K+ did not have a stove fan vented to the outside rather than a circulating fan. For that matter they could not tell me why there was not tile wainscoting in the bathroom. The first house I ever bought a 1950s 3 bedroom 1 bath ranch had tile wainscoting 4 feet high in the bathroom. The "luxury" condo all had forced air heat rather than radiant heat.
10
My 35 year old 'white sound' machine from Hammacher Schlemmer does the trick. In fact, I take it with me to the country because I find the country to be too quiet.
7
I suppose if you are dropping millions on a penthouse, a few ten or hundred thousand dollars for the final-most luxury of silence is not a big deal. But for the rest of us in New York, especially renters, we're out of luck. I had to leave my studio in the UWS 5 months ago after only living there for a couple of months because of this kind of noise. It was a pre-war building, but I could hear every single incessant step the upstairs neighbors were taking, literally all day long. I swear they were circling the room over and over. They ignored my communication, and the super wouldn't do anything about it; so I filed for lease termination with a lawyer, submitted it to management, and left. The resounding noise in my head actually put me into a depression. So then I decided to move all the way Downtown to FiDi (quieter) and into a luxury building (thought it would be better quality), and the grandest life lesson I've learned so far: not much changes in the end, even after tremendous toil. Now I pay twice the rent in this beautiful building, with luxury services, but can hear my opposite neighbor showering, using the toilet, or speaking on the phone through the bathroom vent -- AND the neighbor adjacent to me playing his video games or even speaking/coughing, right through the wall.
8
I highly recommend purchasing foam ear plugs from your nearest pharmacy. They do wonders in filtering out external city noise, and internal apartment noise, if you live in one. It's a relatively inexpensive investment and it helps one sleep more deeply and longer. Especially in a noisy city and building. Give it a try!
White peoples' problems.
3
What a terribly racist thing to say. I'm not white and I have had my share of noise problems living in Manhattan. I've hired a sound isolation engineer to deal with my current apartment and employed many of the strategies discussed in this article. Noise afflicts everyone regardless of skin color.
12
Okay, primarily rich white peoples problems
2
I would never buy real estate without a prior week-long acoustic report. Noise is a curse everywhere, and gets worse almost by the month, in the city or out in the country. I don't mind who my neighbors are, as long as they are quiet. A community (apartments or housing) designed and maintained for quiet would be a best seller, but developers seem unable to provide it.
4
On the other side of our bedroom wall was a retired neighbor who backed her TV right up to this shared wall. After too many nights of calling her at 3 AM and asking her to turn down the volume, we got smart -- we added a layer of sheet rock to our side of the wall and had it painted to match the rest of our bedroom. This simple solution cost about $1200 and saved our relationship with the neighbor.
12
Wouldn't it have been easier to ask your neighbor to move her TV?
We did (more than once). She wouldn't.
3
Or if you can afford it, buy her a small TV with an ear jack. TV's are getting so cheap these days.
There are those that relish making others suffer from their noise makers. Where I live we call them motorcycles driven at all hours of the day and night on city streets and with outrageous levels of engine noise.
3
It is especially around the issue of residential noise that one discovers just how deeply thoughtless and selfish some of our fellow humans are. Sartre had it right: hell is other people. People who donate coats for the coat drive, or espouse the most caring opinions are often the inconsiderate jerks who walk around on wooden floors in heels, blast basketball televised basketball games, and run their dishwasher at 7am.
15
7 am is a problem for you? What time do you start work? I am trying to imagine the time of day when a family could use their dishwasher without annoying you.
1
Buy a place (or rent a place) in the city with real walls (gypsum block and plaster) and not drywall or sheetrock. Then make sure you have double-glazed windows. Increasingly, "luxury" apartments are luxury in name only. They are made of cardboard. Anyone who buys one of these simulacra gets what he/she deserves. It's not rocket science.
18
The worst is noisy neighbors, not in one's own building but across the courtyard having loud parties, especially when there's music blasting. How to deal with it, since the police don't take it seriously, is a real problem. I think it may well lead to rage murders, though I hope not.
13
I discovered that noise was my cause of insomnia (home, hotels). Earplugs plus a white noise generator has provided deep sleep everywhere and especially in unfamiliar hotels. This combination is much less expensive! Take control of your ears!
18
Grew up in an apartment building. Vowed never to live in one again when I grew up. Now I have a stand-alone house outside the city and couldn't be happier! A lot of people are drawn to the glamour of the big city, for various reasons, but noise is a price I'm just not willing to pay again. I still work downtown, but I'd rather commute than have to deal with the noise. I'm glad that there are solutions for the problem now, for those who can afford it, but I feel really bad for those who can't, and who can't move, either.
41
Some of these problems arise because contractors do not follow the manufacturer's instructions when installing products like drywall. Drywall is supposed to run from the ceiling to the floor, and, ideally, the joints at those points are to be caulked. Some drywall installers like to rest the lower drywall piece on their feet to keep in in position while they nail it into place, creating quite a gap between the bottom of the drywall and the floor. Because these gaps are typically covered by baseboard, they get away with this; however, it means that the STC (sound transmission classification) of the drywall, as guaranteed by the manufacturer with proper installation, is no longer applicable. My bedroom, on a corner of my house, was very noisy, so I checked all of the joints. Upon pulling the wall-to-wall carpeting away from one of the corners, I noticed that not only did the carpet padding end a couple of inches from the edge of the baseboard, but that the plywood subfloor had unsealed cracks, and I was able to reach two or three inches up behind the baseboard before hitting the bottom of the drywall. My solution was to get several cans of spray insulating foam and go methodically around the room, pulling the carpet away from the wall, vacuuming up all of the drywall dust that had just been left behind, spraying the foam behind the baseboard, wiping off any on the board itself, waiting for it to expand and harden, then trimming it flush with a knife and replacing the carpet.
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Agree that the proper installation is important. We had better windows put in our entire house. The sound deadening qualities of double and sometimes even triple pane glass is pretty impressive. However in one bedroom the noise of cars driving on the street was just as bad as before.
While painting one day I had to take the window frame down. There were gaps between the window and the wall 3=4 inches wide that had not been filled with caulk. Easy thing to remedy, but not something that first comes to mind when dealing with noise.
While painting one day I had to take the window frame down. There were gaps between the window and the wall 3=4 inches wide that had not been filled with caulk. Easy thing to remedy, but not something that first comes to mind when dealing with noise.
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In 2002 I bought my dream loft apartment in Atlanta. It had concrete floors and a beautiful glass wall facing south. The problem: the share walls were drywall (the worst invention for human kind but cheap for developers). After I moved in I found out that the drywall walls moved back and forth in a wave when touched lightly! I resold immediately when the noise from both sides was unbearable.
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Foam insulating spray cans come in various strengths. What foam expansion factor did your foam spray can have?
it is why we left any city or town for rural life 34 years ago. The only traffic on a normal day is the mailman. Where we are moving to for retirement, same situation. Both locations literally have no human caused sound. Folks who come from any city to stay with us complain it is too quiet. However, I would point out that the crickets on a warm summer night can drive city folk crazy, particularly those that never heard crickets before.
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That is so true about night sounds in the countryside! The first night my husband and I spent in our rural home (having lived in a large city for fifteen years) was in late summer, during a heat wave. The frogs and crickets were so alarmingly loud that we wondered what we had gotten ourselves into. And then the coyotes chimed in. Now that is all just background noise to me. The other side of rural quiet, though, is the way minor sounds can amplify. I can sometimes hear neighbors talking even though they are more than two hundred yards away and down the hill. And when a group of chopped motorcycles roars down the road it sounds like the apocalypse.
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So true! Growing up in NYC, I found the outside traffic noise soothing for sleep. When I went to college in the burbs, the crickets chirping at night and the singing birds (always 5AM ish) were a frequent source of bloodshot eyes.
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utopia, what can wake me up is when the crickets and birds suddenly stop making noise. It usually means someone or something is out there.
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Are these materials used in soundproofing safe if they get burned in a fire?
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Nat, almost no materials used in construction that either support combustion or can be burned, are safe, if your definition is whether or not the smoke will kill you.
Usually, sensible construction creates something of a fire-resistant barrier between you and the wood, foam, adhesives and other flammable things, but these days, nearly all upholstered furniture is almost explosive foam that will create a lethal environment long before the building structure does. Attempts to legislate fire resistance in both furniture and textiles have been disastrous. So don't worry so much about what's behind the wallboard.
Usually, sensible construction creates something of a fire-resistant barrier between you and the wood, foam, adhesives and other flammable things, but these days, nearly all upholstered furniture is almost explosive foam that will create a lethal environment long before the building structure does. Attempts to legislate fire resistance in both furniture and textiles have been disastrous. So don't worry so much about what's behind the wallboard.
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Some are okay. Foam can be troublesome (burns fast, creates toxic smoke), however using furring channels to hang double layers drywall (with green glue between the layers) can lower your noise floor tremendously and adds no more risk than what's commonly accepted.
Soundproofing materials used by reputable consultants will meet building code fire safety standards. However, if you just go out yourself and buy materials, they may not meet fire safety standards.
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These articles about noise remind me of why I left NYC. Most of the time I want to move back but can't afford it. The backwoods of Georgia are boring and unfriendly, but I do get to sleep peacefully every night thanks to a house on a .73 acre lot. Sometimes boring is good.
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Unfriendly? The South is the most friendly place I've ever lived and I've lived in many places.
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When I lived in the suburbs, the noise was just as bad, albeit not right over my head. Dogs barking constantly, lawnmowers and leaf blowers at the crack of dawn on Sunday...unless you lived in the middle of nowhere on acres of land, you had to put up with endless noise from clueless neighbors.
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Interesting. I often think about abandoning my condo because of the noise from the people living directly above me. (It sometimes sounds like they are playing full court basketball very late at night....) Some folks are pretty oblivious to noise and some people are very sensitive to it. All things considered, if I ever get another place, I know to try to live on the top floor.
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I've tried that and it doesn't work. You will still get noise from below you, from loud music and TVs. The best solution is to live in a reinforced concrete building with concrete walls and floors.
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This article has taken a one-sided approach to soundproofing. The popularity of open concept design must surely increase awareness of noises within, as well as without. There's no suggestion for mitigating the sound of kitchen appliances. Help?
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In our limited experience, some of the newer dishwashers and clothes washers seem quieter than their ancestors, but annoyance is more than the average sound level. We tend to suppress continuous, constant sound, but evolution has equipped us with the virtue of reacting to changing or intermittent noise, which is what some of the new appliances emit to achieve some mandated energy efficiency. So the old fridge that churns away with a constant hum, is more tolerable than the new washer that's pulsing on and off every ten seconds or so. Masking intermittent noise with constant noise often is a good solution, and cheap.
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I recently did some research online on dishwasher decibel levels. I was amazed to see that a difference of 3 decibels---say from 38 to 41---actually means that the 41 decibel unit is TWICE as loud as the one at 41. Bosch makes a 38 d. unit but I noticed that many do score closer to 45 and such are MUCH higher.
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Purchase low decibel appliances will help. Every dishwasher manufacture rates their products and that is the #1 appliance you need to watch for. Washer / Dryers are another story but you did stay Kitchen.
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Silence is the last great luxury.
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After the apocalypse, the survivors will hear it again.
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An eternity of it awaits us. God willing.
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It's not just structural/functional issues that cause noise. People are also noisy. My upstairs neighbors have 'complied,' according to them, with the proprietary lease - they DO have carpets. But they are the thinnest oriental carpets I have ever seen. I can tell every time Babar and Celeste, as I call them, walk across a room, turn up the music and wake up in the morning. My dogs stare at the ceiling with the noise. And this is a pre-war building with well-insulated walls and floors, so it's not just the mechanical issues that cause problems with noise.
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