Policing is a bit easier in a country when men just stab instead of shooting. We could go that way, unarmed police, but remember how the police in France reacted to the killers at Charlie Hebdo - they ran!
I'm British and spent most of my life there before living in America. I am proud of the British police and their very restricted use of firearms which, mostly successfully, maintains law and order. BUT, how would that policy work in America when a significant percentage of the population are armed and may well use firearms against the police? I don't know the answer but I think it was an enlightened move to study what goes on elsewhere.
2
I had a similar thought with regard to the U.S. police force visiting Scotland. Why didn't they visit England, where there is more ethnic diversity and a tougher urban environment.
The advantage of visiting Scotland is to learn that there are alternative methods to coping with a dangerous situation. For example, look at the picture of how the police handled the man with the huge knife. He would have been shot dead in the U.S. in seconds.
There is another underlying factor that is not addressed in this article. I am willing to bet that the majority of these police officials, mostly white, vote Republican every year. And, the NRA loves the Republicans. Are they not shooting themselves in the foot?
The advantage of visiting Scotland is to learn that there are alternative methods to coping with a dangerous situation. For example, look at the picture of how the police handled the man with the huge knife. He would have been shot dead in the U.S. in seconds.
There is another underlying factor that is not addressed in this article. I am willing to bet that the majority of these police officials, mostly white, vote Republican every year. And, the NRA loves the Republicans. Are they not shooting themselves in the foot?
1
Policework is inherently dangerous like many occupations. If an individual is so fearful of being hurt that he has to eliminate all possible threats then he should find another line of work.
While pleased that these U.S. police leaders visited Scotland to learn how to police without violence, I am not convinced that they will be able to successfully convince their respective forces to become non-violent and philosophical in their policing efforts--not without considerable re-education, and an American population which wishes to be non-violent, as well.
American violence and gun deaths rival those of Iraq, Pakistan and the Democratic Republic of the Congo. American culture is violent, and Americans are self-centered.
Until Americans get over their thinking that, "Everything is about me and my stuff!", and evolve into thinking that, "Everything is about us and our quality of life", nothing will change.
Europeans simply have a different outlook toward killing. In general, the EU nations support non-violence and their police, in large part, do not carry weapons.
Europeans do not own weapons--they have no desire to do so. Murder and violence are abhorred, not part of the social mindset.
To eliminate police violence in the U.S. would involve hiring entire new police forces. The rookies would have to be hired on their belief in peacekeeping and abhorrence toward violence and killing. They would have to use their brains, and not their brawn.
Modern interviewing for new rookies emphasizes finding those who can follow orders, who can act without thinking and who can kill.
American violence will only cease when Americans focus on "We", not "Me".
American violence and gun deaths rival those of Iraq, Pakistan and the Democratic Republic of the Congo. American culture is violent, and Americans are self-centered.
Until Americans get over their thinking that, "Everything is about me and my stuff!", and evolve into thinking that, "Everything is about us and our quality of life", nothing will change.
Europeans simply have a different outlook toward killing. In general, the EU nations support non-violence and their police, in large part, do not carry weapons.
Europeans do not own weapons--they have no desire to do so. Murder and violence are abhorred, not part of the social mindset.
To eliminate police violence in the U.S. would involve hiring entire new police forces. The rookies would have to be hired on their belief in peacekeeping and abhorrence toward violence and killing. They would have to use their brains, and not their brawn.
Modern interviewing for new rookies emphasizes finding those who can follow orders, who can act without thinking and who can kill.
American violence will only cease when Americans focus on "We", not "Me".
1
No one calls for American police to be unarmed, that would be ridiculous with the gun situation in the US.
But that any person brandishing a knife, wielding a club, or threatening physical violence ends up shot to death by the police is a symptom of poor police work, a lack of professional ethics and human empathy, misguided training, and a stunted perspective regarding the role of the police in our societies.
....not to mention an overriding us and them mentality exacerbated by a macho tough guy work culture.
But that any person brandishing a knife, wielding a club, or threatening physical violence ends up shot to death by the police is a symptom of poor police work, a lack of professional ethics and human empathy, misguided training, and a stunted perspective regarding the role of the police in our societies.
....not to mention an overriding us and them mentality exacerbated by a macho tough guy work culture.
1
We do not need to go as far as Scotland to look at how Community Policing is working. Richmond, California instituted Community Policing under Police Chief Chris Magnus and it led to a drastic reduction in homicides. Chief Magnus is an inspiration going as far as joining a local Black Lives Matter protest over the while in uniform. His policing policies should be studied by every American city.
1
Scotland, the UK and other civilized countries can follow a model of unarmed policing because the citizenry is not armed to the teeth with guns. We are awash with guns here, that's the core problem.
2
Useless effort.. I previously lived for (2) years in UK, then (20) years in CANADA. There was absolutely *no need* to fear, because there were NO GUNS allowed, and the Police was EFFECTIVE. Then I came to USA, became a PATRIOTIC Citizen.. BUT, I realized the ABUNDANCE of GUNS on street, and the MILITARISTIC HISTORY of USA. (I mean, the presence of lots of idiots who MUST have an AK-47 to sleep with, even to go to poop with it) No problem, I am very happy to have ONLY a single S&W 38 in my "Security-Guarded" condo... USA should throw garbage the Gun-Laws, which will NOT WORK AFTER this time, and AVOID JIHADISTS to come here.. and of course, BRAVO to our police, and BOOO the black guy in WH blaming our wonderful police..
A working man in a company van had a heart attack in a poor neighborhood in Chicago some years back. He was not helped, but robbed. A neighbor on a quiet street called police as a car parked on the street smelled bad. Sure enough, a body was in the trunk. There are some truly violent sociopaths out there.
Walk these streets without a gun? Not hardly.
How to discern between those violent sociopaths and the others just trying to get along in their violent little world is not easy. But the police need to realize both exist in the same geographic area. Cruising around as a faceless enforcer will not gain much support. Above all a clear sense of direction, innovation and good leadership is needed. Learning how others do it is a start.
Walk these streets without a gun? Not hardly.
How to discern between those violent sociopaths and the others just trying to get along in their violent little world is not easy. But the police need to realize both exist in the same geographic area. Cruising around as a faceless enforcer will not gain much support. Above all a clear sense of direction, innovation and good leadership is needed. Learning how others do it is a start.
4
Given how our society overall has little concern for granting justice, sympathy or even a helping hand to the poor or working classes I think it is too much to ask our police to do it themselves. That's just not fair to them. Maybe we should out-source our police work to foreigners such as the Scots, the French and others who come from societies that embrace equality, fraternity and all of the that other foreign nonsense.
3
It seems to me that many police interactions in America that go bad are because the officer has to establish dominance over the suspect and will continue to escalate the situation until the suspect displays their submission. I wonder how much of our violence by police in the US is due to this attitude and default mode of escalation.
15
"But he emphasized that the challenges police officers face when confronting an emotionally disturbed person wielding a knife on a darkened city street are universal, whether they are in Detroit or Dundee."
Big difference: Scotts are very unlikely to be carrying handguns. So the element of carnage with violence is lessened. As far as anti-social behavior, it is equal of advanced over the USA, with punishment of many crimes a known sham. You get better statistics if you overlook instances or cherry pick them.
Check the cops out when it comes to any likelihood of terrorism and you'll see the vests and semi-automatics appear. not a "bobby on the beat".
These are apples and oranges of two vastly different cultures with much of the repressive downside from socialism. It isot as idyllic in East Glasgow as Sturgeon and the BBC machine would have you believe.
Big difference: Scotts are very unlikely to be carrying handguns. So the element of carnage with violence is lessened. As far as anti-social behavior, it is equal of advanced over the USA, with punishment of many crimes a known sham. You get better statistics if you overlook instances or cherry pick them.
Check the cops out when it comes to any likelihood of terrorism and you'll see the vests and semi-automatics appear. not a "bobby on the beat".
These are apples and oranges of two vastly different cultures with much of the repressive downside from socialism. It isot as idyllic in East Glasgow as Sturgeon and the BBC machine would have you believe.
2
Do you think maybe, just maybe, we Americans are capable of learning something, anything, from someone else? Surely if we are the greatest gift on God's green earth then perhaps we should show it and humble ourselves once in a while.
DD
Manhattan
DD
Manhattan
6
I'm glad Scotland's only problems are firebombs, knives and samurai swords, those none life threatening objects of little consequence. And let's not forget they have no substantial numbers violent ethnic groups. What a joke!
Sadly, our culture of violence, much of it stemming from an acceptance still of racism, is something that many police officers continue to embrace. We have yet to do what South Africa did and figure out a way to accept and confront this ugliness. The group "Black Lives Matter" speaks the truth - they do matter, and until we come to grips with this truth, the police are - while part of the problem - not the root cause of it.
Here's hoping the voters choose the only brilliant candidate for president, who will speak for this needed change with every word - Bernie Sanders. We don't need a macho man or woman at the helm to perpetuate the tragedy of our legacy.
Here's hoping the voters choose the only brilliant candidate for president, who will speak for this needed change with every word - Bernie Sanders. We don't need a macho man or woman at the helm to perpetuate the tragedy of our legacy.
3
Too many guns in the USA. Police officers here don't have much choice in talk vs escalation. If they don't escalate and take an immediate defensive approach they risk being shot dead -- in the UK they might get socked in the face, worst yet stabbed. Gun controls works through out the world except in the USA, we have too many gun manufacturers profiting off of fear and violence here.
3
As a Scotsman I laughed out loud when I read this piece. There are a number of points which I feel readers should probably know which are not included in this article.
Firstly, it is true that there is little gun crime in Scotland. There are many reasons for this. However, in Scotland last year, there was substantial condemnation of Sir Stephen House and his policy of police officers carrying handguns on routine patrols. Something which was completely absurd and contrary to everything this article seemed to be about. A simple google search will provide you with evidence of this.
Secondly, there is a history of bigotry within the Scottish police force which, while very much diminished, is still an issue. Many Irish Catholics would chuckle at the term 'guardians of the community' being used by our police force. Indeed a high-ranking police officer was charged with a sectarian hate crime as recently as September.
Finally, let us look at some of the reasons that Sir Stephen House is leaving Police Scotland under heavy public pressure. This year: a man from Sierra Leone died in police custody; the UNHRC criticised the use of stop and search which has been used without suspicion of a crime and aganst children; and Police Scotland took three days to react to a fatal car crash on a main highway.
I would like to write more but unfortunately the character count prevents me. However, I wouldn't be too quick to idealise our 'guardians of the community'.
Firstly, it is true that there is little gun crime in Scotland. There are many reasons for this. However, in Scotland last year, there was substantial condemnation of Sir Stephen House and his policy of police officers carrying handguns on routine patrols. Something which was completely absurd and contrary to everything this article seemed to be about. A simple google search will provide you with evidence of this.
Secondly, there is a history of bigotry within the Scottish police force which, while very much diminished, is still an issue. Many Irish Catholics would chuckle at the term 'guardians of the community' being used by our police force. Indeed a high-ranking police officer was charged with a sectarian hate crime as recently as September.
Finally, let us look at some of the reasons that Sir Stephen House is leaving Police Scotland under heavy public pressure. This year: a man from Sierra Leone died in police custody; the UNHRC criticised the use of stop and search which has been used without suspicion of a crime and aganst children; and Police Scotland took three days to react to a fatal car crash on a main highway.
I would like to write more but unfortunately the character count prevents me. However, I wouldn't be too quick to idealise our 'guardians of the community'.
It is beyond cavil that in the majority of cases police upon escalate the level of violence at a crime scene. A prime driver for this is US police culture is one of unrestricted and wanton use of brutal and lethal violence and impunity for their use of that violence.
1
Police officers as the “guardians of the community,” what a great thought
1
From the CIA World Fact Book
Racial make up of:
United Kingdom: 87.2% white, black/African/Caribbean/black British 3%, Asian/Asian British: Indian 2.3%, Asian/Asian British: Pakistani 1.9%, mixed 2%, other 3.7% (2011 est.)
United States: white 79.96%, black 12.85%, Asian 4.43%, Amerindian and Alaska native 0.97%, native Hawaiian and other Pacific islander 0.18%, two or more races 1.61% (July 2007 estimate)
Britain abolished the slave trade in 1807 and slavery in 1833 and obviously did not populate their own country with slaves but did populate their colonies such as America with slaves leading to two very different history's of how these society's developed post-slavery. Actually, Britain's society was already established while the USA had to evolve on it's own. I am not saying there is an excuse for any police violence but there is an underlying reason that the criminals in America are more violent than the criminals in the UK. It's good that the US is seeking techniques to improve policing but it would take an indoctrination program starting from birth and at least another 100 years, if that long, before the USA reaches a point that police would be able to walk the streets of America unarmed.
In other words, this will never fly here.
Racial make up of:
United Kingdom: 87.2% white, black/African/Caribbean/black British 3%, Asian/Asian British: Indian 2.3%, Asian/Asian British: Pakistani 1.9%, mixed 2%, other 3.7% (2011 est.)
United States: white 79.96%, black 12.85%, Asian 4.43%, Amerindian and Alaska native 0.97%, native Hawaiian and other Pacific islander 0.18%, two or more races 1.61% (July 2007 estimate)
Britain abolished the slave trade in 1807 and slavery in 1833 and obviously did not populate their own country with slaves but did populate their colonies such as America with slaves leading to two very different history's of how these society's developed post-slavery. Actually, Britain's society was already established while the USA had to evolve on it's own. I am not saying there is an excuse for any police violence but there is an underlying reason that the criminals in America are more violent than the criminals in the UK. It's good that the US is seeking techniques to improve policing but it would take an indoctrination program starting from birth and at least another 100 years, if that long, before the USA reaches a point that police would be able to walk the streets of America unarmed.
In other words, this will never fly here.
2
I'll start believing in all "the good cops out there" when they start testifying against all the bad ones.
Until then, to me, they'll remain accessories, abettors, and co-conspirators.
Until then, to me, they'll remain accessories, abettors, and co-conspirators.
4
Well said. Here in Chicago it took 13 months for the Laquan McDonald dash cam video to come out because of the code of silence of the authorities. As my husband put it, "How is that any different than the gang bangers on the street refusing to testify against each other?"
1
It's a curious coincidence that in America police officers commit violent, domestic and sex crimes at a rate two to five time greater than that of the general population.
3
Every situation is a potential deadly fight right out of the "Great American West" where guns overcame all harrowing situations or WW2 where "American Might" defeated Hitler and earlier with Al Capone, Machine Gun Kelly and John Dillinger brought to bay thanks to armed officers.
We have a history of solving problems at the point of a gun and until we are realistically exposed to and understand how bankrupt the philosophy of might makes right is, it will be next to impossible to overcome this mindset.
Getting rid of guns is one thing and undoing myths is another.
We have a history of solving problems at the point of a gun and until we are realistically exposed to and understand how bankrupt the philosophy of might makes right is, it will be next to impossible to overcome this mindset.
Getting rid of guns is one thing and undoing myths is another.
2
So true. The most important line in this article was: "How officers think matters more than how they wield force, even in a nation where knives, not guns, are criminals’ weapon of choice."
It's no surprise that the nation whose military has killed more people on foreign soil than any other in the post-WWII era is the same nation whose police kill and imprison more of its citizens than any other.
And, unsurprisingly, more than any other nation, violence and war are central to America's culture, its national identity and its core values.
And, unsurprisingly, more than any other nation, violence and war are central to America's culture, its national identity and its core values.
2
To stop the tail wagging the dog, immediate gains can be made for the public's safety by restricting American police to the approx. caliber (not larger than 9-mm) and 9-shot clips as Europe's police use. Cops are less threatening when they carry a smaller weapon and smaller gunbelts. And make body cameras mandatory, with penalties for turning them off. And the lunacy of shooting a downed knife-wielder cause his body keeps jerking in spasms from your multiple shots is Murder.
5
Yes, and all police body or dash cam video is uploaded in real-time to an independent custodian for safekeeping and distribution pursuant to relevant law.
2
Scottish police are often good, so are American police. It seems to me Americans have been duped into believing things have to be the way they are. This puzzle's Europeans who wonder why American's CHOOSE to allow things to be this way? We cry over the mass murder of children, then the next day move on to the next big news story and forget about it until the next time. The public is intentionally kept ignorant and confused, chasing our tails, fighting among ourselves and achieving NOTHING while big money makes more money and people continue to die. Is this all accidental or is someone orchestrating this mess? It exists only in America. Ignorance is the enemy, not cops.
I am struck by the number of comments that seem to believe that Scotland is some sort of less violent society. I can assure you that is not the case. Glasgow routinely tops the Homicide league table in the UK and is also the Knife Crime Capital of Europe.
I have travelled extensively to some very nasty places and I can assure that walking home alone at night in parts of Scotland is a very scary proposition.
I have travelled extensively to some very nasty places and I can assure that walking home alone at night in parts of Scotland is a very scary proposition.
2
At last a small step forward, whether it would be implemented in all its sincerity there is entirely different question altogether.
Whatever the Assistant constable chief of Scotland said about his area of jurisdiction is entirely true in India, a very complex country with countless problems that too with a population of more than thrice that of America.
Indian citizens hate the police mainly because of corruption in the police system and utter disdain for common man. Indian police force mainly comprises of the constables and less number of officers when compared with them. Police constables in India hold mainly sticks in their hands and crowd control is mostly through sticks.
Police constables and police officers simply can't shoot people in India just like that as is done in America. They need special instructions to shoot people at sight. Most of the time they use sticks. If the agitators simply can't be managed with sticks, then tear gas is used. Sometimes, they might even use rubber bullets or fire in air to dispel the crowd as a last resort.
Life of a police officer is precious and so are the lives of innocent people, if only the police understands it.
Whatever the Assistant constable chief of Scotland said about his area of jurisdiction is entirely true in India, a very complex country with countless problems that too with a population of more than thrice that of America.
Indian citizens hate the police mainly because of corruption in the police system and utter disdain for common man. Indian police force mainly comprises of the constables and less number of officers when compared with them. Police constables in India hold mainly sticks in their hands and crowd control is mostly through sticks.
Police constables and police officers simply can't shoot people in India just like that as is done in America. They need special instructions to shoot people at sight. Most of the time they use sticks. If the agitators simply can't be managed with sticks, then tear gas is used. Sometimes, they might even use rubber bullets or fire in air to dispel the crowd as a last resort.
Life of a police officer is precious and so are the lives of innocent people, if only the police understands it.
2
NYT today:
KEY WEST, Fla. — A Broward County deputy sheriff has been indicted by a grand jury in the 2013 killing of a computer engineer who had been carrying an air rifle, marking the first time in 35 years that an officer in the county has been charged with a fatal on-duty shooting, prosecutors announced Friday.
----------------------
For over 1/3rd of a century, cops got away with manslaughter in a densely populated county. When I lived there in 1970-1 BCSO was trigger happy, and Metro-Dade cops too. Conversely, my friend's nephew, Rocky Hunt, died by gunshot on duty with the Palm Beach Co S.O., age 26.
KEY WEST, Fla. — A Broward County deputy sheriff has been indicted by a grand jury in the 2013 killing of a computer engineer who had been carrying an air rifle, marking the first time in 35 years that an officer in the county has been charged with a fatal on-duty shooting, prosecutors announced Friday.
----------------------
For over 1/3rd of a century, cops got away with manslaughter in a densely populated county. When I lived there in 1970-1 BCSO was trigger happy, and Metro-Dade cops too. Conversely, my friend's nephew, Rocky Hunt, died by gunshot on duty with the Palm Beach Co S.O., age 26.
2
The conundrum for police in America is the gray area between maximum force allowed and minimum force necessary. That gap is where the problem manifests itself. Numerous videos have shown that U.S.cops tend to use maximum force.That has to end. No one doubts that being a policeman is a dangerous job. but increasingly problematic is the unfortunate truth that many policeman lack the courage to handle situations with minimum force. These craven cops shoot people who could be subdued,albeit with more personal risk,without shooting them. Well risk is part of the job, if your not secure enough to react with minimum force, then get a job that doesn't require physical courage. Nobel Laureate Toni Morrison has spoken of the new paradigm of "cops as cowards". Their over use of force is why. Another huge problem is that police can't appear to be "soft"Too many cops aren't physically fit. When a young man sees a cop as "soft"that increases the probability of resistance. Increasing physical fitness standards would save lives.
5
Many forget the intense debate ca. 2005 in the scepter'd isle when the farmer in Essex or similar killed 2 burglars after his umpteenth burglary. "Hot burglaries" in which someone breaks in WHILE YOU ARE HOME are not uncommon in the UK, as the Daily Telegraph showed, because the perps know the homeowner is NOT ARMED. Like Dustin Hoffman was unarmed in "Straw Dogs." But the farmer had a shotgun. Oops! The debate then became: How do you we disarm the farmers? The goal: to make verything but a single-shot .22 rifle illegals, as was done by the Australian reactionaries.*
To undertand this wish to be defenseless, as in 1940, recall Auden: "England is an island, and that is all you need to know." As with dogs bought to the UK, the long guns of John Bull may get quarantined, too.
* Never mind that Australia was founded by convicts sent from England, as fulsomely chronicled by former TIME art critic and expat Aussie Robert Hughes in "The Fatal Shore."
To undertand this wish to be defenseless, as in 1940, recall Auden: "England is an island, and that is all you need to know." As with dogs bought to the UK, the long guns of John Bull may get quarantined, too.
* Never mind that Australia was founded by convicts sent from England, as fulsomely chronicled by former TIME art critic and expat Aussie Robert Hughes in "The Fatal Shore."
Scotland isn't just misty glens and shortbread, Glasgow's a big city with violence centred around football, sectarianism and gangs. There are big problems in Scotland with drugs, with gangs who are armed, but with knives rather than guns, and young people who are threatening to people who live in those housing states. Although there was a trend last year for gang rivals to fire shots at each others houses, so criminals do have guns in Scotland.
There are ethnic minorities but we don't have the racism as in America. There's also a distrust in certain areas towards the police, but the point of the article, I think, was that police in Scotland engage, and they back off when necessary. I worked for the police in Edinburgh, and there are murders, there are violent incidents, domestic abuse. but it's not on a huge scale. And they won't do car chases through city centres, if a kid has stolen a bike or a car for example. to avoid endangering when unnecessary.
There are ethnic minorities but we don't have the racism as in America. There's also a distrust in certain areas towards the police, but the point of the article, I think, was that police in Scotland engage, and they back off when necessary. I worked for the police in Edinburgh, and there are murders, there are violent incidents, domestic abuse. but it's not on a huge scale. And they won't do car chases through city centres, if a kid has stolen a bike or a car for example. to avoid endangering when unnecessary.
3
Requiring police to live where they work is a good first step. When you're dealing with the "same" and not the "other," you might be less inclined to shoot first and ask questions later.
13
This visit was a great idea - people in every profession should search for and, where applicable, learn from other professionals' best practices - and I really do hope that this wasn't Mr. Wexler's first exposure to the fact that many officers in the UK are routinely unarmed.
As with the old saying about every problem looking like a nail if your only tool is a hammer, perhaps many problems look like a target when your primary tool is a firearm. I applaud all officers for putting themselves in harm's way to keep the peace, and compliment them for exploring ways to do their jobs more effectively and safely.
As with the old saying about every problem looking like a nail if your only tool is a hammer, perhaps many problems look like a target when your primary tool is a firearm. I applaud all officers for putting themselves in harm's way to keep the peace, and compliment them for exploring ways to do their jobs more effectively and safely.
1
The Scottish model is far more elegant than the situation we have here.
Thanks to the NRA for turning our country into a war zone where cops are in an arms race with citizens.
Thanks to the NRA for turning our country into a war zone where cops are in an arms race with citizens.
1
That's what the police would like you and the rest of the ignorant and gullible American public to believe, but it's not true. What is true is you have to go more than a century, back to 1897 to find a year where fewer police were injured or killed by firearms in the United States.
1
teaching Americans not to kill...thats the funniest thing I've ever heard
2
Frankly, what does Scotland know about crime? The American contingent might as well have visited Jamaica, or Curacao, same attitude of appeasement there, and fewer misdemeanors, laddie.
"what does Scotland know about crime?"
What do you know about Scotland?
Glasgow is the knife-murder capital of Europe and gang violence is routine in many neighborhoods.
What do you know about Scotland?
Glasgow is the knife-murder capital of Europe and gang violence is routine in many neighborhoods.
2
I suppose to a person who is satisfied with policing in America, any other country looks like an appeaser compared to the US, given that our police kill and imprison more of its citizens than any other.
1
Remember the TV shows and movies of the 1950s and 60s? "Have Gun, Will Travel", The Rifleman, Combat!, The Lone Ranger, Naked City, Colt .45, Wagon Train, Bonanza, She Wore a Yellow Ribbon, The Longest Day, The Magnificent Seven, Fort Apache, James Bond and so many others. All of these TV productions and movies have one thing in common. Lots of gun play and lots of heroes with guns. The guns were used to solve personal problems, marriage problems, Indian problems, wars between nations and general social problems. Whatever the problem someone reached for a gun to solve it. And we accepted that as the norm, not the exception.
Our police can visit Scotland, England or any other country but it won't change the gun culture of the United States. Criminals and heroes both believe that using guns to solve problems and to get justice is the right thing to do. Until we solve the problem that we accept violence as a norm we can't address the problem of militarized police and heavy responses.
We don't have the westerns of yesteryear or the former multitude of war movies that celebrated the heroics of soldiers in battle. Now we allow our children to play unbelievably bloody and violent video games. We still glorify violence and guns. We still create heroes and cowards. And we still create the imagery and acceptability of need for guns and violence to solve problems.
Training or retraining our police is commendable. Retraining our young people would be more commendable.
Our police can visit Scotland, England or any other country but it won't change the gun culture of the United States. Criminals and heroes both believe that using guns to solve problems and to get justice is the right thing to do. Until we solve the problem that we accept violence as a norm we can't address the problem of militarized police and heavy responses.
We don't have the westerns of yesteryear or the former multitude of war movies that celebrated the heroics of soldiers in battle. Now we allow our children to play unbelievably bloody and violent video games. We still glorify violence and guns. We still create heroes and cowards. And we still create the imagery and acceptability of need for guns and violence to solve problems.
Training or retraining our police is commendable. Retraining our young people would be more commendable.
10
What shall we do with male attitudes in many societies, that women and children are subject to the domination of men in every instance that involves arguments?
Perhaps our schools should teach how to come to reasonable agreement beginning in primary schools?
Perhaps our schools should teach how to come to reasonable agreement beginning in primary schools?
3
A useful dialogue to a point but only so far. Our Second Amendment zealots and gun fetishists make our nation totally different. Scotland had Dunblane (a school mass murder) and we had Sandy Hook, Conn. They put in place severe restrictions on firearms. We have college students taking concealed loaded weapons to class. Cops faced with disorderly hooligans with knives is a very different situation than an inner city gang turf war. Sadly, we need armed officers, but better police training and screening of recruits or hires from other agencies.
3
You're woefully misinformed about police confronting armed criminals I'm America. The reality is the overwhelming majority of instances where police use brutal or lethal violence involve subjects who are not armed with a firearm or any other weapon.
“If I go back and I do say, ‘Back up,’” she said, referring to one of Scotland’s primary tools, “they’re going to say, ‘What happened to Terry Shortell?’ They are.”
Sounds like the NYPD needs a new training academy director. One with a more open mind and less closed minded, insular American arrogance.
Sounds like the NYPD needs a new training academy director. One with a more open mind and less closed minded, insular American arrogance.
1
It would be very wonderful if American police could adopt Scottish methods and eventually not need to carry firearms. But there is another side to the equation and that is the criminals of the U.S. are far, far more aggressive. Criminals with guns, knives and other weapons are out for blood. They want to do damage. American domestic violence is dotted with assaults with firearms. Robberies, home invasions, road rage, drug deals, gangs and drive-by shootings are not going to be ratcheted down by talking nicely to people who don't care about others. In fact they are incapable of understanding the pain and damage they inflict on others. Just educating police is not enough. De-militarizing police and making them guardians instead of warriors will not happen overnight. And it will also take a change in the attitude of the public and the criminals.
In many inner city neighborhoods the number of criminals with guns is probably far greater than we know. Taking the guns out of their hands before a crime takes place would be very difficult.
What could unarmed police or police trained to de-escalate a violent situation do with a determined criminal who has a gun and will not surrender? Do we really believe that American criminals are going to stand down? Can they? Would unarmed police be an invitation for criminals to conduct more crime?
Less armed confrontations between police and criminals would be wonderful but how will we convince criminals not to use guns?
In many inner city neighborhoods the number of criminals with guns is probably far greater than we know. Taking the guns out of their hands before a crime takes place would be very difficult.
What could unarmed police or police trained to de-escalate a violent situation do with a determined criminal who has a gun and will not surrender? Do we really believe that American criminals are going to stand down? Can they? Would unarmed police be an invitation for criminals to conduct more crime?
Less armed confrontations between police and criminals would be wonderful but how will we convince criminals not to use guns?
1
US criminals are not far, far more aggressive than Scottish ones. The simple difference is the ease of obtaining a gun in the US and the cavalier attitude towards life that creates.
3
You've been watching far too much tv. The situation you describe where police confront "a determined criminal who has a gun and will not surrender," is a rarity.
The majority of the 1,000-plus people shot and killed each year by police were not in possession of a firearm at the time of their confrontation with police.
The majority of the 1,000-plus people shot and killed each year by police were not in possession of a firearm at the time of their confrontation with police.
The Scottish philosophy is an example of what we learned about high-speed car chases. There is too much carnage during the chase, better to let the suspect go and apprehend him when the situation is less tense and more in the cops control. The same with guns. It would be better if the cops were unarmed, diffused the situation and apprehended the suspect when the situation was better controlled. Even in San Bernadino, the first responders didnt need to be armed. And we should take to calling them peace officers, not police or cops. Their principal job is to keep the peace...
3
Good luck defusing a situation where a diffusion of PCP has occurred, and the miscreant weighs 250 lbs. Bring a net.
I'm a police officer who works in a deprived town in Scotland, guns etc are few and far between, however I've had several occasions where instead of a gun being produced from a waistband, the criminal has produced a knife given I don't carry a firearm the danger in this situation is that if I become physically involved in a fight I could be stabbed as I don't have the reaction gap a firearm provides, so when I approach people I don't let them move their hands, if I approach them and they don't follow my commands (ie a statutory detention) then I think 'they may be disposing of an illicit item or producing a knife'. In that instance I draw back evaluate the situation if possible. It's still a very dangerous job. I've been assaulted several times and hospitalised, however in absolutely none of these situations would I think it's proportionate for me to have used deadly force. I don't think the point of the week was for anyone to suggest American police should be unarmed, it's not reflective of your constitution. I think the answer is that in some ways for American police officers to seek every opportunity to engage that they possibly can. I'm a very frequent visitor to the states and I love it, particularly New York and Boston, I've found officers there to be very polite and friendly, but when you try to engage them they really don't know what to say or how to talk to people in some situations just general chit chat, or some just don't want to talk.
6
"The United States and Britain are bound by a common language and a shared history..."
however, only the US has a second amendment with relatively few restrictions on automatic weapons. there are some aspects of law that are shared between countries, but there are significant differences. regardless, if the population is armed (with automatic and semi-automatic weapons), probably police need to be too.
also, if you go to northern ireland, you will find a more violent country, maybe even more violent than the US. in northern ireland, the law should generally be fairly similar to that in scotland, but i wonder about the police and military police.
however, only the US has a second amendment with relatively few restrictions on automatic weapons. there are some aspects of law that are shared between countries, but there are significant differences. regardless, if the population is armed (with automatic and semi-automatic weapons), probably police need to be too.
also, if you go to northern ireland, you will find a more violent country, maybe even more violent than the US. in northern ireland, the law should generally be fairly similar to that in scotland, but i wonder about the police and military police.
1
How many people in Northern Ireland are shot by the police despite automatic weapons etc being rife and police officers being targeted by bombs in their cars etc?
1
Ps the above isn't me disagreeing with your point I just think there is possibly another learning opportunity in Northern Ireland when it comes to policing fragmented areas and hostility to police.
1
Automatic weapons are not allowed in this country. It would be nice if those commenting on guns knew what they were talking about.
4
Why is the U.S. so in love with the military model of policing? The country hasn't had a military success since the Second World War, bearing in mind that it's the war that has to be won, not just the initial attack. Occupation and governance are part of the picture.
Why not look at something that has actually worked and emulate that instead?
Why not look at something that has actually worked and emulate that instead?
2
You are correct that the US, despite having engaged in more military interventions than any other nation, has not had a decisive military victory since WWII.
But, the US military has killed more people, the overwhelming majority of which were innocent civilians, than any other nation in the post-WWII era.
And, it is no coincidence that the US also happens to be the nation that kills and imprisons more of its own citizens than any other nation on Earth.
But, the US military has killed more people, the overwhelming majority of which were innocent civilians, than any other nation in the post-WWII era.
And, it is no coincidence that the US also happens to be the nation that kills and imprisons more of its own citizens than any other nation on Earth.
Scotland has a population of just over 5.1 M, less than the number of illegals that our dear leader wants to legalize. In addition it is a very homogeneous demographic nothing like the "diversity" of our inner cities. Perhaps if the inner city folk can be pacified our cops can disarm, as it is many areas of inner cities are war zones.
1
Excellent idea.Disarm all US police . Simply by removing the firearms from the hands of the largest criminal gang in the nation- deaths and injuries by firearm would drop dramatically.
2
Very cute related article about ascots police officers using "banter" to lessen tension and de-escalate situations.
Given that at least some of the miscreants in our cities are practically pre-verbal -- ever listen to their conversations on the streets or in the subways? The only intelligible words are unprintable -- I have my doubts that joking around will help.
Especially when they're too high on whatever they're on to hear anything, or if their fingers are on their guns.
Given that at least some of the miscreants in our cities are practically pre-verbal -- ever listen to their conversations on the streets or in the subways? The only intelligible words are unprintable -- I have my doubts that joking around will help.
Especially when they're too high on whatever they're on to hear anything, or if their fingers are on their guns.
8
Having spent some time in less salubrious inner city parts of San Fransisco, Los Angeles, Orlando, New York, Washington and Memphis I can confirm I know what you mean about pre-verbal but trust me a Glasgow heroin addict is just as difficult to have 'banter' with as the US version. That's where we change the approach in some ways to adapt if the initial approach doesn't work.you talk about it being 'cute' but in reality it works, it's not perfect but it works.
3
Was not aware that any parts of Orlando were NOT salubrious, Eddie, though Wet 'n Wild can get dicey on a summer afternoon, concededly.
I meant "cute" as in charming -- I'm sure it does work where people have some sense of humor about themselves.
And I meant "Scots," not "ascots." Obviously.
And I meant "Scots," not "ascots." Obviously.
This works since neither police nor populace have guns. No one thinks that someone is reaching for a gun when they reach into a pocket or waistband for cell or ID.
6
It works because police respond to people within a community rather than people as objects.
The typical person in the US is bombarded by thousands of advertising spots that provoke their emotions with competitive promises of everything and deliver nothing,
People find it hard to believe in anything.
Police believing in people; people believing in police.
The lottery sells hope. Why do people buy it. Few realize that the more you wage, the less likely you are to win. Many years ago a Florida couple converted everything they owned into cash and bought all the tickets they could -- only to lose. If they bought every possible ticket, they would have spent far more than the payout.
Why were they trying so hard to get away from what they had?
Police are practical psychologists, practicing in a confused world.
The place to learn is from among the community you serve; in doing so, you will have its support -- and not its anger when there is a problem.
We spend millions of dollars teaching special forces this timeless lesson for use in foreign countries. Win hearts and minds. We could use that at home.
In our cities.
The typical person in the US is bombarded by thousands of advertising spots that provoke their emotions with competitive promises of everything and deliver nothing,
People find it hard to believe in anything.
Police believing in people; people believing in police.
The lottery sells hope. Why do people buy it. Few realize that the more you wage, the less likely you are to win. Many years ago a Florida couple converted everything they owned into cash and bought all the tickets they could -- only to lose. If they bought every possible ticket, they would have spent far more than the payout.
Why were they trying so hard to get away from what they had?
Police are practical psychologists, practicing in a confused world.
The place to learn is from among the community you serve; in doing so, you will have its support -- and not its anger when there is a problem.
We spend millions of dollars teaching special forces this timeless lesson for use in foreign countries. Win hearts and minds. We could use that at home.
In our cities.
1
This is really interesting.
I was brought up that if I ever got into trouble, to find a police officer. I was taught that police officers are the best people who do the worst jobs. I was told to follow their instructions without question because they always know the best thing to do.
As I got older, though, and I had some mundane dealings with the police, I became a bit disillusioned. The police officers I came into contact with were overwhelmingly rude, macho, chest-beating jerks. It was like they knew they had control over me, and they relished it.
Mind you, I was never pursued by the police, nor was I ever arrested. This was just for everyday things like getting rear-ended and having an officer respond.
But, my few dealings with the police have made me very wary of having more dealings with them. I now avoid the police. Because although some police officers are good, too many others are corrupt and bad and you never know which one you're going to get. They have all the power and they know it.
Here's the thing: I WANT to give police officers the benefit of the doubt. Despite my experiences, I still strongly support law enforcement and I want them to have the resources to be good officers. I know it's a really hard job. And I truly admire anyone that wants to serve the public.
But something is deeply wrong with policing in America. It seems like too many law enforcement agencies and officers define the motto "protect and serve" as protecting and serving THEIR OWN.
I was brought up that if I ever got into trouble, to find a police officer. I was taught that police officers are the best people who do the worst jobs. I was told to follow their instructions without question because they always know the best thing to do.
As I got older, though, and I had some mundane dealings with the police, I became a bit disillusioned. The police officers I came into contact with were overwhelmingly rude, macho, chest-beating jerks. It was like they knew they had control over me, and they relished it.
Mind you, I was never pursued by the police, nor was I ever arrested. This was just for everyday things like getting rear-ended and having an officer respond.
But, my few dealings with the police have made me very wary of having more dealings with them. I now avoid the police. Because although some police officers are good, too many others are corrupt and bad and you never know which one you're going to get. They have all the power and they know it.
Here's the thing: I WANT to give police officers the benefit of the doubt. Despite my experiences, I still strongly support law enforcement and I want them to have the resources to be good officers. I know it's a really hard job. And I truly admire anyone that wants to serve the public.
But something is deeply wrong with policing in America. It seems like too many law enforcement agencies and officers define the motto "protect and serve" as protecting and serving THEIR OWN.
13
It is nice to see our Police management looking for new solutions, I have heard Bill Evans (Boston) on NPR a few times discuss his views on weapons and policing and how he promotes his officers to deescalate situations with conversation before they get out of hand and weapons get involved. I really do think we have a gun culture problem that we somehow need to change in people's minds everywhere. Lots of people believing they need a weapon to defend themselves is not a good thing. Plus this belief is way out of line as crime stats continue a downward trend I think. Looking at Scotland is relevant as most of the nasty USA incidents of recent times where someone was shot dead were all of the type that were small engagements that got blown out of proportion and any population of any size has these kinds of situations. Should we have more policemen and women on the street out of the cars where they seem isolated mixing in with the public more. This may make people fell safer from localized crime and terrorist types.
1
It is a good sign that the American police leaders are seeking advice elsewhere; always approaching suspects with guns drawn is not a good policy.
When I have read about the unfortunate killings in Ferguson, Chicago etc., I have been shocked to see that often it is enough for the police to say he feared for his life to have the "justified" label on it. But thanks to modern technology it's pretty clear that quite often it was far from justified.
Not every argument and situation must be resolved with violence.
Besides, the cowboy days are long gone.
Good and important article!
When I have read about the unfortunate killings in Ferguson, Chicago etc., I have been shocked to see that often it is enough for the police to say he feared for his life to have the "justified" label on it. But thanks to modern technology it's pretty clear that quite often it was far from justified.
Not every argument and situation must be resolved with violence.
Besides, the cowboy days are long gone.
Good and important article!
I remember in the 1970s some US police departments started to wear jackets and ties, like detectives do, typically in medium-sized towns, to defang their appearance. It faded away.
An epidemic of knife crimes rocked London several years ago, about when Stephen Lawrence was killed and/or when there were riots in Brixton (as in Notting Hill ca. 1980.) I recall that London's MPD armed 2 officers in every 3rd patrol car, or similar, and that car may have carried handguns for foot constables if a bad situation occurred. Some of that was caused by IRA attacks, e.g., Airey Neave, M.P.
2 weeks ago in leftist San Francisco, sanctuary city, a slender black man with a small knife was gunned down as he hunkered alongside a wall, encircled by 6 cops, after a bit of cop foreplay to convey the pretense that there might be a non-fatal outcome. As cameras rolled, they shot him to death. Some sanctuary, huh?
An epidemic of knife crimes rocked London several years ago, about when Stephen Lawrence was killed and/or when there were riots in Brixton (as in Notting Hill ca. 1980.) I recall that London's MPD armed 2 officers in every 3rd patrol car, or similar, and that car may have carried handguns for foot constables if a bad situation occurred. Some of that was caused by IRA attacks, e.g., Airey Neave, M.P.
2 weeks ago in leftist San Francisco, sanctuary city, a slender black man with a small knife was gunned down as he hunkered alongside a wall, encircled by 6 cops, after a bit of cop foreplay to convey the pretense that there might be a non-fatal outcome. As cameras rolled, they shot him to death. Some sanctuary, huh?
2
"Some of that was caused by IRA attacks, e.g., Airey Neave, M.P."
Neave was killed in a car bomb attack. No handgun would have prevented that, or most IRA attacks. Get your facts straight. Please.
Neave was killed in a car bomb attack. No handgun would have prevented that, or most IRA attacks. Get your facts straight. Please.
1
If we put a high tax on bullets or banned them outright, we'd save 10,000 Americans each year, and our police could work without guns. How high a tax? The annual cost of gun violence is $229 billion, and the total of annual retail sales of bullets is about $3 billion. The tax would have to be about 7000 percent.
2
After we tax the internet, require license to post on-line, and have a 7 day waiting period to publish a news paper article.
My family and I visited the Edinburgh Police Museum while visiting Scotland in 2010. It was a tiny array of Scottish police history located in the lobby of a police station, but interesting none the less. I had suggested it since my sister had just been accepted into the police academy and had graduated with a criminal justice degree. It was fascinating to see the equipment that regular constables carried on "the beat".
But there was no gun. My mother asked the receptionist (who I believe was a sergeant) about the lack of a firearm. "Ma'am," she politely responded," If we were to give them guns, they would shoot their foot off!" After we all were finished laughing at this joke. she continued to relate how it was not necessary for them to have firearms when the majority of the population were not allowed to own them. Even in the police force, most guns are carried by special units who are called into a situation only when necessary. There is a great deal of training that a constable must go through before then can even begin to be considered for this elite group.
But there was no gun. My mother asked the receptionist (who I believe was a sergeant) about the lack of a firearm. "Ma'am," she politely responded," If we were to give them guns, they would shoot their foot off!" After we all were finished laughing at this joke. she continued to relate how it was not necessary for them to have firearms when the majority of the population were not allowed to own them. Even in the police force, most guns are carried by special units who are called into a situation only when necessary. There is a great deal of training that a constable must go through before then can even begin to be considered for this elite group.
1
The largest city in Scotland is only about half a million people. I have friends who are policemen, and they never fired a shot, and neither have their police force. Never. But they are not police in a little town called New York City, or Chicago, or LA. which are each more than twice the entire population of Scotland. And, by the way, inner city war zones in these cities and others of similar size and diversity, are where the vast majority of shootings take place. It's really quite simple. The USA is not Scotland. Disarm our police at your own peril. I'll just stay clear of cities and arm myself as well.
4
Good comment until your last line.
At long last can we actually LEARN something as a country?
From the accompanying article on the crucial distinction in 'talking to people' and 'talking AT people".
"We police by consent".
That says it all
"We police by consent".
That says it all
2
All prescriptions from abroad are essentially useless here in America, as we are afflicted with a unique and intractable culture of guns and violence that would take centuries to resolve, if ever. One need only compare public policies on both side of the Atlantic to realize Europeans are, on average, a more civilized people who are more prone to consider the collective good. I cringe to imagine the incredulous reception these nonviolent police tactics would receive from the overweight racist sheriff in Texas, or really any rural area in America.
1
Your pessimism is justified. Not a very elegant society over here.
Force is another word for violence, and words matter.
American politicians and American media should stop using euphemisms and start calling ducks by their proper names.
What Americans think is a product of how they think, and how Americans think are to a large extent determined by the words they use.
American politicians and American media should stop using euphemisms and start calling ducks by their proper names.
What Americans think is a product of how they think, and how Americans think are to a large extent determined by the words they use.
1
Is. Bad edit. Sorry.
2
Hooray for the police leaders who are opening themselves up to consideration of alternative ways to deal with armed and unarmed suspects. Guns are a huge factor here, but there is much that can be done to defuse many situations and a change in how police officers see themselves and their communities will make a difference. If you see yourself at war with the community that leads you down a path that too often leads to abuse and unnecessary deaths.
1
All of the discussions on the need to improve gun control are debates on the margins. Any new legislation for strengthening gun controls requiring, for example, to improve background checks, will affect only new purchases of guns. But any such new legislation will leave the remainder, all of the guns already owned, unaffected. It is as if existing gun owners have been grandfathered by old laws. This is not a solution.
The reality is that there are an estimated 310 million guns in a population of about 320 million. That amounts to almost one gun per person. But the issue is that there are an estimated 44 million gun owners in the US amounting to about seven guns per gun owner. With 14% of the total population owing guns, the high incidence of deaths by firearms in the US is similar to a “Tyranny of the Minority” by gun owners on innocents.
The key issue here is the proliferation of guns and the easy access to guns.
Tinkering on the margins has not and never will work to get rid of this social cancer. There is only one solution:
America: Demand Congress to repeal the Second Amendment.
While the supporters of the Second Amendment are stronger and more powerful than the supporters of the First Amendment who speak on their rights for the safety and security of persons, until this happens, there will continue to be broken and destroyed families.
The new law to repeal the Second Amendment should be called: “The Innocents’ Law.”
The reality is that there are an estimated 310 million guns in a population of about 320 million. That amounts to almost one gun per person. But the issue is that there are an estimated 44 million gun owners in the US amounting to about seven guns per gun owner. With 14% of the total population owing guns, the high incidence of deaths by firearms in the US is similar to a “Tyranny of the Minority” by gun owners on innocents.
The key issue here is the proliferation of guns and the easy access to guns.
Tinkering on the margins has not and never will work to get rid of this social cancer. There is only one solution:
America: Demand Congress to repeal the Second Amendment.
While the supporters of the Second Amendment are stronger and more powerful than the supporters of the First Amendment who speak on their rights for the safety and security of persons, until this happens, there will continue to be broken and destroyed families.
The new law to repeal the Second Amendment should be called: “The Innocents’ Law.”
3
Keep your hands off of my Bill of Rights.
Frankly, I was most impressed by the requirement that officers in the communities which they police. They become, and are perceived as, part of the community instead of as paid enforcers who commute in from far away and don't understand or have bonds with the people they police.
28
In rural areas of the Golden State CHP has "resident officers" who live and patrol in those sectors, and attend a weekly meeting way far away at the CHP barracks, I learned when one, memorably named Tim Moon, helped dig me out of a snow bank out by Bear Valley. He never asked for ID, or checked for "wants and warrants." Cause his street smarts told him there was no need for that. What a cop should be.
Somehow, the populations of countries like Scotland have not been programmed for violence but we in the U.S. are raised on it. From books, to TV to movies to computer games to our acceptance of the Nat'l Rifle Assn.'s buying of our Congressional representatives, guns and violence. What's on TV tonight? A disgusting example of sick minds wallowing in victimizing women (CSI: SVU), just one of umpteen "police procedurals," a movie full of explosions and blood splattering automatic weapons fire, a documentary about terrorism, or perhaps a movie celebrating a "sport" in which men and women beat each other senseless. Yay, us.
20
Very good point about the media. Here in the US we get the likes of "The Shield". In the UK they have "Foyle's War". On the other hand, perhaps our comparatively young nation simply hasn't had time yet to get over the use of deadly violence as a means of solving day-to-day disagreements. We can only hope it won't take us too more centuries to figure it out.
2
Direct your complaints to Hollywood, and Santa Monica, where the high-concept bilge gets it imprimatur, Connor. As Tipper Gore warned a generation ago. Watch how stupid Keanu Reeves looks in "John Wick."
Ever read "The Scottish Chiefs?"
"but constables live where they work and embrace their role as “guardians of the community,” not warriors from a policing subculture." The living where you work is a very important point. If the police live in the community they police then they are known to the community and their families are known and police know the people they are policing. The Scots had the good sense after the massacre at Dunblane Primary School in 1996 to pass firearms laws which made ownership of handguns mostly illegal in Great Britain. Police should live in the community they police.
1
This is a very shallow piece of reporting with a clear partisan agenda. Comparing the urban populations of Britain with those in the States is like comparing marshmallows and walnuts. I lived in England for eight years, half that time in the center of a city which Brits consider very rough and dangerous, and which regularly tops the list of "50 Worst Places To Live In Britain". In the 80s there was fierce street fighting there between Hindus and Muslims with over 20 killed.
I regularly strolled around the toughest parts and the parks late at night and it was nowhere near as dangerous as Oakland (where I've also lived) or parts of LA, Chicago, WPB, NYC, etc. Even the toughest parts of London, Manchester, B'ham, Glasgow and Edinburgh are nowhere near as dangerous as comparable cities in the States.
I often, on my late-night walks, watched the British police deal with trouble: crowds and fights outside bars, knife-wielders, and domestic violence. They are amazingly restrained and polite, put themselves in harm's way, and as a result, take a lot of abuse: cursing, spitting, punches, etc. But these are mostly from drunks who aren't very dangerous. Again, nothing like the States.
Certainly police in the States could adopt some of the British attitudes and approaches, could back off more, and use more discretion. However, with the situations in the States, a lot more police officers will get hurt.
I regularly strolled around the toughest parts and the parks late at night and it was nowhere near as dangerous as Oakland (where I've also lived) or parts of LA, Chicago, WPB, NYC, etc. Even the toughest parts of London, Manchester, B'ham, Glasgow and Edinburgh are nowhere near as dangerous as comparable cities in the States.
I often, on my late-night walks, watched the British police deal with trouble: crowds and fights outside bars, knife-wielders, and domestic violence. They are amazingly restrained and polite, put themselves in harm's way, and as a result, take a lot of abuse: cursing, spitting, punches, etc. But these are mostly from drunks who aren't very dangerous. Again, nothing like the States.
Certainly police in the States could adopt some of the British attitudes and approaches, could back off more, and use more discretion. However, with the situations in the States, a lot more police officers will get hurt.
3
Very instructive for American law enforcement. I still wouldn't want American police to patrol without a gun, but I think increasing the emphasis on using a gun as a VERY last resort is warranted.
As a Canadian, if I were an American policeman (perish the thought), I'd feel pretty nervous about being unarmed when dealing with a population I perceive as all being armed to the teeth. I'm frankly reluctant now to consider US travel. Why have the danger?
1
Um, for the sunny beaches of Florida, along with 100000 other Canadians? See ya in Hallandale, eh!
Guardians. Not warriors.
That says it all!
Police in the US are too often people who want to wield authority, who expect to be obeyed instantly, who imagine that civilians are like army conscripts they can boss around and malign and shout at and demean.
Consider the difference between firemen and policemen today. Fire departments are there to protect and serve. But police do not present themselves that way anymore, if they ever did.
Police departments must rid themselves of people with authoritarian or sadistic personalities. This is a first step. A mandatory step.
I'm an old lady. Probably unlikely to be viewed as any kind of criminal. But due to the fact that too many police expect instant obedience, I am in fear that some day I will be given an order I cannot understand, because I have hearing problems. I may hear someone speaking. Even shouting. But there is a high possibility I may not be able to identify where the sound is coming from or be unable to decipher what exactly is being shouted.
The police seem unable to realize that orders may not be heard or understood. Besides, why should anyone, even the police, expect instant obedience?
This really is a problem today. And because of it, I have more fear of the police than of any kind of terrorism.
Get rid of bad apples in police departments! Hire firemen instead. Or hire the kind of people fire departments attract. It's clear we have no such problems in fire departments.
That says it all!
Police in the US are too often people who want to wield authority, who expect to be obeyed instantly, who imagine that civilians are like army conscripts they can boss around and malign and shout at and demean.
Consider the difference between firemen and policemen today. Fire departments are there to protect and serve. But police do not present themselves that way anymore, if they ever did.
Police departments must rid themselves of people with authoritarian or sadistic personalities. This is a first step. A mandatory step.
I'm an old lady. Probably unlikely to be viewed as any kind of criminal. But due to the fact that too many police expect instant obedience, I am in fear that some day I will be given an order I cannot understand, because I have hearing problems. I may hear someone speaking. Even shouting. But there is a high possibility I may not be able to identify where the sound is coming from or be unable to decipher what exactly is being shouted.
The police seem unable to realize that orders may not be heard or understood. Besides, why should anyone, even the police, expect instant obedience?
This really is a problem today. And because of it, I have more fear of the police than of any kind of terrorism.
Get rid of bad apples in police departments! Hire firemen instead. Or hire the kind of people fire departments attract. It's clear we have no such problems in fire departments.
4
Policing efforts have evolved alongside their civilizations. Once criminals looted armories for automatic weapons, police started carrying automatic weapons. Its been tit for tat. No one sees this deescalating. It would be a nice idea for all American criminals to take a step back and start using knives and bats, but what does that say? Without guns the populace uses knives and swords. They dont stop killing. That is what I take from this article. People use what is convenient .
Suppose we start an experiment by offering a bonus payment (say $1000/year to start) to police officers who give up their gun while on routine patrol.
Offer a much larger bonus, say $5000/year to officers who give up their cars and patrol on foot.
Double the bonuses if all officers in a district give up the gun and car.
Then see what happens.
Offer a much larger bonus, say $5000/year to officers who give up their cars and patrol on foot.
Double the bonuses if all officers in a district give up the gun and car.
Then see what happens.
How about we drop you in the middle of the South side of Chicago with a cops uniform on, no gun but hey you will get an extra $20 a week. Would you go?
1
Cops need to understand that the NRA is not their friend. Community policing works best where the police aren't threatened by guns in the hands of far too many people, some of whom are bad actors, for one reason or another. Too many cops buy into the NRA's meme.
2
US police persons do NOT need to go to Scotland to see and learn how to do unarmed policing. This tells me how poorly educated and trained police persons are in the US. It is common sense that when you corner a person, or an animal, it becomes a fight or flight situation and if they cannot run away then the only thing left to do is to fight and they will use the weapon they have at hand. It is also common knowledge that the more power and weaponry you put in someone's hand they are more apt to use it, and especially if they have been given training to do so... engage the suspect.
Instead of deescalating a situation, the police guys always want to escalate it by showing authority and approaching everyone with their hand on the holster. Lets remove that holster and I can unequivocally say that routine situations involving traffic stops or mischievous misconduct at shops etc. would NEVER end up in some being dead. The police guys objective has to be to deescalate the situation. I was traveling once in Australia and was stopped by a police cruiser. Two police guys came over and addressed me as: Sir, we believe that... . Can you imagine that happening in the USA? Yes, I received a huge fine for having a radar receiver but and I also lost it to them but I still never feel bad about that encounter. They did their job and it was all over.
Instead of deescalating a situation, the police guys always want to escalate it by showing authority and approaching everyone with their hand on the holster. Lets remove that holster and I can unequivocally say that routine situations involving traffic stops or mischievous misconduct at shops etc. would NEVER end up in some being dead. The police guys objective has to be to deescalate the situation. I was traveling once in Australia and was stopped by a police cruiser. Two police guys came over and addressed me as: Sir, we believe that... . Can you imagine that happening in the USA? Yes, I received a huge fine for having a radar receiver but and I also lost it to them but I still never feel bad about that encounter. They did their job and it was all over.
23
When was the last time anyone in the US was pulled over by two police on a traffic stop. We save money and lose lives by having police ride alone, even in dangerous situations.
2
In rural counties, RG, what is the alternative? Twice the police, or one cop per car, and better response times? Guess which the voters demand?
Police without guns? Could that work?
Public without guns - that could work.
Well, it does here.
Public without guns - that could work.
Well, it does here.
3
Too bad we all can't go over there...
You don't have to come over here; you could implement gun controls in the home of the brave and the land of the free. It could take 100 years to get rid of so many guns so you had better start today.
Except for when bad actors go slashing about with large butcher knives, Clint.
As a Brit, it's very interesting to read some of the comments on here.
Some suggest that the difference between policing in the U.S. and Britain is down to race. It's true that only roughly one in six Brits are from ethnic minorities while maybe one in four Americans are. But that doesn't seem to be a big enough gap to explain away the differing relationships between the police and the policed.
Some have said it's all down to the prevalence of gun ownership among Americans, and that must be hugely important. You simply couldn't send officers onto the street without guns when so many in the wider population have them.
Others have suggested that American officers are less educated than British ones. Roughly 30 percent of those currently entering London's Metropolitan police service (MPS) are graduates with bachelors' degrees. That means 70 percent have either completed high school or haven't. Is that very different from comparable departments in the U.S.?
To me, there seems to be one much more significant factor, which was touched on in the article. And that concerns culture. People in the MPS used to call it "canteen culture:" the opinions and attitudes recruits would pick up from older officers when they were eating together. The MPS leadership worked hard to wrest control of the organization's culture from its older, often more cynical officers, and ensure its rookies shared values that suited the 21st century.
Might that help American police departments?
Some suggest that the difference between policing in the U.S. and Britain is down to race. It's true that only roughly one in six Brits are from ethnic minorities while maybe one in four Americans are. But that doesn't seem to be a big enough gap to explain away the differing relationships between the police and the policed.
Some have said it's all down to the prevalence of gun ownership among Americans, and that must be hugely important. You simply couldn't send officers onto the street without guns when so many in the wider population have them.
Others have suggested that American officers are less educated than British ones. Roughly 30 percent of those currently entering London's Metropolitan police service (MPS) are graduates with bachelors' degrees. That means 70 percent have either completed high school or haven't. Is that very different from comparable departments in the U.S.?
To me, there seems to be one much more significant factor, which was touched on in the article. And that concerns culture. People in the MPS used to call it "canteen culture:" the opinions and attitudes recruits would pick up from older officers when they were eating together. The MPS leadership worked hard to wrest control of the organization's culture from its older, often more cynical officers, and ensure its rookies shared values that suited the 21st century.
Might that help American police departments?
35
Unfortunately the NRA wants guns so readily available to anyone, that the police systems in the US must be ready to respond with guns. Until Congress gets out from under the NRA thumb and bans assault and rapid fire arms that have a singular purpose -- killing other people -- we will lose our cherished Freedom from Fear.
It isn't the NRA. It is the Bill of Rights.
1
Constables live where they work is key! Here in California a lot of law enforcement officers who work in Oakland, live 30+ miles away in places like Tracy CA.
In southern California many LA police officers live in Simi Valley which is known to be a majority law enforcement community.
Growing up the law enforcement officers in San Francisco lived in San Francisco now they to live 30+ miles away where there is affordable housing. Same with teachers. They lived in our community not 30+ miles away.
In southern California many LA police officers live in Simi Valley which is known to be a majority law enforcement community.
Growing up the law enforcement officers in San Francisco lived in San Francisco now they to live 30+ miles away where there is affordable housing. Same with teachers. They lived in our community not 30+ miles away.
first you have to have a civilised society
that leaves you out, yanks
that leaves you out, yanks
4
Sounds like you must be a Limey, a citizen of a country that caused untold suffering to millions of "subjects" through centuries of colonial rule throughout the world. Just because you were forced to retreat back into your island doesn't mean you're civilized, mate. Look at what you've done in Northern Island. We may not be civilized in your opinion, but how are you measuring that?
1
A good example of a society where aggression is dealt with by other means is Germany: Germans do not have the right to own a gun. But they do have to the right to drive as fast as they want to on most highways. This has translated into agressive individuals - mostly males - transgressing traffic laws in virtually every area to the extent that any normal American expat is disgusted with the prospect of driving a car in Germany. Using their cars as a weapon is the only freedom Germans enjoy. Is that really something to be emulated? Ask your expat friend.
Actually there are speed limitations on the Autobahn. Those who think otherwise are 'flashed' and receive a little reminder in the mail...(and the tickets aren't cheap.) Oh, and Germans can buy a gun if the choose to. But it's not on the same scale as here, and the paperwork is exhaustive.
You failed to specify what the speed limit is, N. It sure ain't 120 Km/hr as in neighboring EU countries. Nor is it in California, come to that.
Sorry, but a professional development road trip won't quite do it. A culture is developed over many years and is a product of complicated contributions. The US culture of exceptionalism, individualism and violence trumps (sorry, couldn't resist) reforms based on how other countries police their nations.
1
Indeed, it is impossible that America could have produced such a figure as James VI of Scotland, morphing into James I of England. For starters a high-placed Government official writing a Bible on work time would not be allowed here, tho his views on Tobacco and Demons we'd find congenial.
Until we reduce the likelihood that the person(s) a police officer confronts is armed with a gun, this isn't going anywhere. I really do not understand why the police has not come out more strongly in favor of reasonable gun regulation and control. If a policeman recognized that someone was not a member of a 'well regulated militia', then they should be able to assume they are not armed. But we have a long way to go before that happens.
1
I lived half of this past year in Scotland and was taken by the simple fact that the vast majority of policemen and policewomen I saw were walking the beat. Taking a policeman out of the armored car, giving them a face and making them part of the community goes a long way in humanizing them, and how we interact with them.
2
The armored cars came in handy at San Bernardino, Rudy.
Only SWAT teams are in armored cars (Bearcats.) They're not meant to socialize, Rudy.
This is so inspiring that we should invite a dozen Scottish police offices to police Newark without their guns, accompanied by a troop of NYT reporters - all without guns - and let's see how it goes.
9
not a good idea to take guns away from the police. better to have police applicants properly vetted to weed out immature candidates that the position attracts [similar to firefighter applicants attracted to fire]. also properly trained when they are hired on keeping their temper and not responding beyond what is proper
1
This is Maslow's Hammer if I've ever seen. If you have a hammer, you treat everything as if it were a nail. Only in this case the hammer is a gun and citizens are the nails.
2
A nailgun, in other words.
Scotland seems like a sane place to raise a family.
If only our version of Parliament had the courage to take on the gun industry.
If only our version of Parliament had the courage to take on the gun industry.
2
If you like rain - yes.
i was fortunate enough to have gone to scotland for two weeks in 1984 - knew i should've stayed....
2
Interesting article. I'm surprised there was no mention of drugs. Are Scotland and the U.S. similar in drug use? I would expect that to be a factor in trying to reason with criminals.
You ever see the movie Trainspotting?
1
I'm sure the British arrest style--"Sorry, would you mind coming with me?"--would be just as effective on the peaceful streets of Detroit as it is in the warzone of Aberdeen.
Dear New York Times: not everyone takes shortcakes with their afternoon tea.
Dear New York Times: not everyone takes shortcakes with their afternoon tea.
So, to simplify, we have two choices as a society:
1 - Access to guns is very strictly limited. Nearly no one dies from guns. The police do not carry guns. Nearly no one dies in confrontations with police because the police's goal is to diffuse confrontational situations without death or injury.
2 - Guns are available for sale to just about anyone in unlimited quantities and, as a result, there are more guns than people in the country. Each year there are 10,000 homicides-by-gun and many more injuries-by-gun. The police not only carry guns but are often indistinguishable from military special operations units based on the weapons they carry and the vehicles they drive. The police are quick to use deadly force if there's any potential justification for it and, as a result, many people needlessly die in confrontations with police.
I don't understand how anyone can choose choice 2.
1 - Access to guns is very strictly limited. Nearly no one dies from guns. The police do not carry guns. Nearly no one dies in confrontations with police because the police's goal is to diffuse confrontational situations without death or injury.
2 - Guns are available for sale to just about anyone in unlimited quantities and, as a result, there are more guns than people in the country. Each year there are 10,000 homicides-by-gun and many more injuries-by-gun. The police not only carry guns but are often indistinguishable from military special operations units based on the weapons they carry and the vehicles they drive. The police are quick to use deadly force if there's any potential justification for it and, as a result, many people needlessly die in confrontations with police.
I don't understand how anyone can choose choice 2.
2
I believe that if you were to take the total number of police-civilian contacts on any given day in the USA, and divide that by the substantiated negative headline making contacts, the total picture probably looks a lot more like Scotland than the police haters are making out.
3
This is all well and good, and these lessons can certainly do no harm. But the question remains: What do you do with a highly armed public? As long as there are lax gun laws, any attempt to modify police behavior will be overshadowed by the possibility of encountering armed resistance.
1
Thr NYC police department has 34,817 officers (2012). In 2013 there were 81 discharges of a firearm. Of those 8 were from officers committing suicide and 19 were from aninal attacks. That leaves 54 incidents. Assuming that no officer used his more than once, that gives us a rate of .15% meaning 99.85% of NYC did not use deadly force. Remind me why you think this is a problem.
5
I don't understand the logic of disarming police who stand a high likelihood of encountering armed criminals.
Scotland doesn't have a powerful gun lobby like the NRA which would resist such changes for police departments are some of the most lucrative markets for weapons from handguns to sniper rifles. Indoctrination of police officers in the USA is towards a shoot first, restrain later mindset. Our country is awash in guns where private individuals have personal arsenals and armories that would rival a police department's arms room. Scotland doesn't have a 2nd Amendment where it places gun ownership right up there with the Ten Commandments in some folks minds. The mantra in the USA is give me Life, give me Liberty, give me Guns!
2
Not the Ten Commandments but the ten Bill of Rights.
2
Here, officers who retreat are not considered “cowards,”
This is at the root of the problem with the American police force. A cultural problem that has enshrined the philosophy that no officer should ever back down. He holds all the power and the other party needs to know and respect that. Backing down in any sense is a failure. Negotiation is a message that you're relinquishing your authority. 'Stand your ground' laws are another endorsement of the culture that says that killing another human is acceptable where de-escalation may also have worked equally well. People watch videos of police shooting an unarmed man and remark 'he didn't do what he was told, 'if he'd done as he was told, there wouldn't have been a problem'.
Several videos recently have shown police shooting suspects who have posed minimal risk to them. Where is the shame in killing an unarmed civilian?
Can't a officer also have a sense of pride by doing his job with minimal use of force?
This is at the root of the problem with the American police force. A cultural problem that has enshrined the philosophy that no officer should ever back down. He holds all the power and the other party needs to know and respect that. Backing down in any sense is a failure. Negotiation is a message that you're relinquishing your authority. 'Stand your ground' laws are another endorsement of the culture that says that killing another human is acceptable where de-escalation may also have worked equally well. People watch videos of police shooting an unarmed man and remark 'he didn't do what he was told, 'if he'd done as he was told, there wouldn't have been a problem'.
Several videos recently have shown police shooting suspects who have posed minimal risk to them. Where is the shame in killing an unarmed civilian?
Can't a officer also have a sense of pride by doing his job with minimal use of force?
4
Everyday, policemen in this country face life and death decisions. Sometimes those decisions are shaped by the knowledge that the citizenry of this country is armed to the teeth. Sometimes, as we have seen in the recent proliferation of videos of police shooting innocent black men, their decisions are shaped by inherent racism. Sometimes the decisions are shaped by a lack of insight and intelligence. The few people I know who became police officers were not at the academic top of their high school classes. The prospect of carrying a gun and being in a position of authority appealed to these guys. Until we can address these issues, we will continue to see people suffer as a result of the gun madness, racism and lack of enlightenment in our society. The new gun laws passed in Illinois and Connecticut recently are a step in the right direction as was the Supreme Court's decision not to hear the case of a man insisting he needed an assault weapon to defend his home.
Have we reached a tipping point? Not sure--but I hope that as we continue to look beyond our borders for good ideas, we might be. I would like to go the movies and the city without thinking twice about being shot.
Have we reached a tipping point? Not sure--but I hope that as we continue to look beyond our borders for good ideas, we might be. I would like to go the movies and the city without thinking twice about being shot.
2
Well Scotland is a small country that is demographically homogeneous. Maybe that has something to do with it. At any rate we are not comparing things that are remotely similar.
2
Comparing apples to oranges again. Scotland is a tiny country with a mostly homogenous population of 5 million people. There are probably not enough drug addicts there to fuel gang warfare over drug dealing areas. They do not have a moronic "war on drugs" to begin with. The only time someone needs to get SWATTED is if they are a terrorist. Police here have much deeper problems to deal with. Next time some meth head comes around with a pipe or baseball bat I'd like to see how easy it would be for Mr. Baker to "talk him down".
2
Scotland has her tribes too.
Please look at a map, the weather is not conducive to a lot of civil unrest.
Please look at a map, the weather is not conducive to a lot of civil unrest.
1
Carrying a gun actually increases anyone's chances of getting shot.
Police in America are so heavy handed. This sometimes leaves suspsects with no options but to meet "fire" with "fire." A majority of these situations can be de-escalated with better outcomes. For instance a suspect with a knife threatening to harm himself or a family member should never be shot. That is poor training. Say he is angry with his gf and yet she has been moved away from harm by responding officers, because men seemt o have ego, he may not want to drop the knife right away fearing that will make him "lose face." Take your time, talk to him, let him know the consequences of his actions and if he does not drop it, have someone with proper attire disarm him.
16
Gloria - "Police in America are so heavy handed. This sometimes leaves suspsects with no options but to meet "fire" with "fire."
"Heavy handed" justifies "fire with fire" against a police officer, that is the problem with American society. There is no respect for the law and no respect for those upholding the law. When a person thinks they are justified to meet fire with fire against society's legal representatives they are dead wrong and that's exactly how they should remain.
"Heavy handed" justifies "fire with fire" against a police officer, that is the problem with American society. There is no respect for the law and no respect for those upholding the law. When a person thinks they are justified to meet fire with fire against society's legal representatives they are dead wrong and that's exactly how they should remain.
Comparing American policing to Scottish policing is foolish as when Sen Sanders tried comparing American social policy to Denmarks. Scotland has less than 6 million people, less than New York City and their population is relatively homogeneous. Most relevant to this issue is that whether you support gun rights or don't you must acknowledge there are 300 million guns in the US, most in the hands of legal responsible gun owners but some significant number in the hands of criminals. To think that disarming police is answer to any question other than " how do we make being a policeman a suicide mission" is absurd. We can certainly screen and train our police force better but let's not leave them defenseless.
13
The answer here, I believe, is not to disarm US policemen, but to train them to diffuse a situation while leaving their firearm at their side. The first response should not be to pull out a weapon, particularly on an unarmed individual, which guarantees raising the tension and the stakes.
1
A better solution than making it an "arms war" between police and criminals is to reduce the number of guns in the US. No one ever wins an arms war.
1
I'm impressed that US police went on this mission, and were open to learning new methods, particularly disarming.
The main difference with British police is that US cops have to deal with armed suspects far more often, so the police have situations in which they can be murdered. Yet, when a cop pulls out his gun it automatically ramps up the stakes, when the criminal does not have one, which we see has happened often.
Trying to defuse a situation while a suspect is facing a weapon makes the exchange uneven. It's the cop's easy solution as well. Who needs to negotiate when you can just shoot. Once that happens they are seen as the enemy, often by the non criminal population of the community.
The other striking difference is that the cops in Glasgow live where they work.
Automatically, this gives them a pulse of the community, and establishes relationships with people in the neighborhood- who can help them. It also means a cop is more accountable, knowing he can't run to a home 50 miles away, like so many NYC cops to to Long Island.
I personally have not had negative encounters with NYPD, but I'm white and middle aged, and pose no threat.
I've seen cops effectively and professionally defuse situations, with myself as a participant once.
Yet, I've seen many cops be incredibly rude, even with law abiding citizens. I wonder how these guys are on the force. It leaves me feeling scared of them.
The main difference with British police is that US cops have to deal with armed suspects far more often, so the police have situations in which they can be murdered. Yet, when a cop pulls out his gun it automatically ramps up the stakes, when the criminal does not have one, which we see has happened often.
Trying to defuse a situation while a suspect is facing a weapon makes the exchange uneven. It's the cop's easy solution as well. Who needs to negotiate when you can just shoot. Once that happens they are seen as the enemy, often by the non criminal population of the community.
The other striking difference is that the cops in Glasgow live where they work.
Automatically, this gives them a pulse of the community, and establishes relationships with people in the neighborhood- who can help them. It also means a cop is more accountable, knowing he can't run to a home 50 miles away, like so many NYC cops to to Long Island.
I personally have not had negative encounters with NYPD, but I'm white and middle aged, and pose no threat.
I've seen cops effectively and professionally defuse situations, with myself as a participant once.
Yet, I've seen many cops be incredibly rude, even with law abiding citizens. I wonder how these guys are on the force. It leaves me feeling scared of them.
45
Scotland is not the United States. The idea of US police without guns is foolhardy.
I live by Boston Common. Boston denies its Park Rangers firearms. The thugs ignore them. The Common is now pretty much a no-go area with hand-to-hand drug sales in broad daylight, serious fights and occasional attacks by "wilding" juveniles.
Last year, a schizophrenic with a history of armed violence exploded at one of the long-time Rangers, always courteous and respectful in my ten yeas of knowing him, stabbed him dozens of times. The ranger had asked him to stop smoking.
Our criminals are different and our criminal procedure is different. I would not feel safe with unarmed police. No way. This is more gun control op/ed, a another divisive issue, causing us to turn against each other as Islamist terror wages war on us.
I live by Boston Common. Boston denies its Park Rangers firearms. The thugs ignore them. The Common is now pretty much a no-go area with hand-to-hand drug sales in broad daylight, serious fights and occasional attacks by "wilding" juveniles.
Last year, a schizophrenic with a history of armed violence exploded at one of the long-time Rangers, always courteous and respectful in my ten yeas of knowing him, stabbed him dozens of times. The ranger had asked him to stop smoking.
Our criminals are different and our criminal procedure is different. I would not feel safe with unarmed police. No way. This is more gun control op/ed, a another divisive issue, causing us to turn against each other as Islamist terror wages war on us.
3
I spent a week in Boston a couple of years ago in the summer. My daughter and I crossed Boston Commons several times each day and night and never saw anything the least bit sketchy or had any reason to fear being there.
2
We have a long way to go, but I found this article heartening in what has been a most terrible week of news. The more the US can broaden their horizons and explore implementing some of the policies and procedures of other nations, the more there is hope that our country might evolve.
44
The biggest issue, in my opinion, to many of our policing problems is education. Most police forces require a high school diploma or GED and maybe a few hours of college credit. The result is a large portion of police are fairly uneducated and thus completely unequipped to dealing with a situation that takes intelligent and deliberate analysis. They are the school bullies who wanted to continue bullying and we gave them a badge and a gun.
70
This is so not true. Most departments (including NYPD) require at least 60 college credits. However, ask Bill Gates how important college is.
That's probably common around the world. I certainly saw that happening in Australia. Honestly though, I am so surprised its taken this long for this to happen. Other countries are constantly looking to improve their policies or best practices by comparing to other countries. I am astounded that this Scotland exercise was triggered only by a chance observation.
Mike Chitwood was an excellent, proactive police Chief in Portland, Maine... It's refreshing to see him pop up in the national conversation again with such thoughtful perspective on this problem. Hopefully he lands at the head of a very large American city department someday!
2
On Monday, I saw a television story on the latest terrorist incident in Europe. It happened in London. A man slashed at least one person, shouting about the treatment of Muslim's in Great Briton. How did the police react? They used 1 taser shot and handcuffed him. This was officially called a terrorism event. The next story once again showed the incident in Chicago. My jaw dropped, and I realized that many of these shootings may, and can be handled differently.
10
Tazers are great....when they work. Like pepper spray they are know to fail against aggressive, chemically altered, mentally disturbed, or in some cases hardened felons who meet several (or sometimes all) of the prior categories.
Officer Shortell's questions and her self-conscious comment that if she were to tell officers to "Back up", attempt to de-escalate a situation, they'd ask "What happened to Terry Shortell?", both indicate a deeply ingrained attitude and a reason she should immediately be removed from a position of training another generation of NY cops.
Cops face a real threat from an armed populace so naturally they need to proceed cautiously. However training dominated by "neutralize the threat" and aim at the center torso is an aggressive, devastating and predictably tragic recipe. It is cop as judge, jury and executioner and they should not so easily be handed that right. They often may have other options they should be trained to use. Education of the public, such as to keep their hands in view when in a police encounter, could help as well.
These policies are a choice, and not the necessity we are led to believe. We can choose to have a less violent society and are fortunate in having other countries whose policies and results we can observe and learn from.
Cops face a real threat from an armed populace so naturally they need to proceed cautiously. However training dominated by "neutralize the threat" and aim at the center torso is an aggressive, devastating and predictably tragic recipe. It is cop as judge, jury and executioner and they should not so easily be handed that right. They often may have other options they should be trained to use. Education of the public, such as to keep their hands in view when in a police encounter, could help as well.
These policies are a choice, and not the necessity we are led to believe. We can choose to have a less violent society and are fortunate in having other countries whose policies and results we can observe and learn from.
5
American gun culture is not confined to "civilians" alone, police are equally inclined, eagerly accepting military surplus, none in this article suggested even considering disarming their officers.
Well, Ms Shortell, if your officers do say to you, "What happened to Terry Shortell?" Answer them: "She recently learned something."
4
There's an old joke: In heaven, the Italians do the cooking, the Swiss do the accounting, the German fix the cars, the French are the lovers, and the British are the police. In hell, the English do the cooking, the Italians do the accounting, the French fix the cars, the Swiss are the are the lovers, and the Germans are the police.
I've always thought the Brits come out best in that one. Bravo to the police chiefs for being open to learning from them.
I've always thought the Brits come out best in that one. Bravo to the police chiefs for being open to learning from them.
5
What has always been the answer when dealing with people still holds true, but the non-leaders we have in our leadership positions never seem to learn, is winning the hearts and minds of the people, not using force, is the answer. Be sincere, care, treat all people with respect, keep improving yourself, develop SELF-confidence (not only professional confidence), experience, and patience...
2
Police brutality has been exaggerated and overblown. For every racist cop there's a thousand good cops. If you don't want to get shot, then just obey the officer's orders and show some respect. Is that so hard?
Have you noticed that you never hear Asian minorities being subject to police brutality? Are we supposed to believe that cops are only racist towards black people, not Asians?
Have you noticed that you never hear Asian minorities being subject to police brutality? Are we supposed to believe that cops are only racist towards black people, not Asians?
8
So, not showing respect warrants being shot?
1
Do you have ANY Black friends? Have you read or even heard about Michelle Alexander's "The New Jim Crow"? It's in your library. Read and please learn the answer to your questions, young man.
1
Could never happen here for several reasons. First, our cops are mainly poorly educated, uneducated. You can't have a sense of humor without being educated. Second, our cops live to kill. Their cops consider themselves part of the people, being helpers and enforcers for safety as necessary. If you approached a cop like the women in the story, I can't imagine what would happen to you, but it would not be laughter. It would probably be arrest for being drunk in public. Cops hate the public here. They consider themselves above the law and accountability and mostly they are.
4
Oh. I thought (being from FL and all) you were going to bring up something about the differences between the weapons to which U.S. citizens have (indeed, DEMAND) access and how it might affect the decisions of police officers in assessing whether someone they are facing might present a lethal threat. Comparing Ireland, the UK, France, etc. to the U.S. in terms of gun-ownership ranking globally (guns per 100 people)... Ireland ranks 106th. Scotland is 82nd. France is 11th. The U.S.... 1st. Bear in mind, that's not just raw gun ownership, it's PER 100 PEOPLE. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Number_of_guns_per_capita_by_country) That's important because in terms of population we're ahead of all of them by a wide margin. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_and_dependencies_by_popu....
So we have many more citizens with a much higher proportional rate of gun ownership to boot. Is that not relevant to why we might be having a problem getting cops to adopt a less aggressive mindset? While it would be difficult to compare the databases, I would also be interested in knowing the proportionate rate of police officer deaths in each country. Or hey, maybe you're right and our police officers are just generally homicidal maniacs who "live to kill" and European officers tasked with policing a similarly armed population would NEVER become more aggressive.
So we have many more citizens with a much higher proportional rate of gun ownership to boot. Is that not relevant to why we might be having a problem getting cops to adopt a less aggressive mindset? While it would be difficult to compare the databases, I would also be interested in knowing the proportionate rate of police officer deaths in each country. Or hey, maybe you're right and our police officers are just generally homicidal maniacs who "live to kill" and European officers tasked with policing a similarly armed population would NEVER become more aggressive.
1
One one thing that is common throughout the videos of these tragic confrontations is the total lack of empathy on the part of the policeman for the citizen who is confused and frightened. When the policeman demands submission first and interprets anything less than total surrender as resistance, escalation to use of force is inevitable. Citizens should not have to risk death by cop simply by expecting their rights be respected.
14
There is an axiom in law enforcement. Ask, tell, make. When encountering someone in the course of their duties (assuming no act of immediate violence or harm), and officer will begin with the ask, then proceed from there to issuing a command (the tell), all else fails should the situation require it, they will make you comply with an order.
Despite what most people think most officers prefer not to proceed beyond the "ask" let alone the "tell" stage of an encounter. The final option the "make" can be like wrestling with bear, lots of ways for it to go wrong and if it goes badly your day can end up shot to hell...some cases literally.
Lots of times we see video of encounters where people are given lawful commands (driver's license, insurance card, and registration.....or please step out of the vehicle....or PUT DOWN THE KNIFE..... or STOP POLICE....) met with an assertion of rights, or with violence, or a fleeing subject. What the subject(s) fail or refuse to understand is that the officer is within his charge to stop, question, detain for further investigation (issue a ticker or summons), or to arrest as needed.
It is the duty of the subject to comply with the legal orders and realize that it not the officers job to argue the nuances of the law, the vehicle code, or some other criminal code, it is simply the officer's job to enforce it as he has been trained. If the officer was trained to argue such things he would be a lawyer or a judge.
Despite what most people think most officers prefer not to proceed beyond the "ask" let alone the "tell" stage of an encounter. The final option the "make" can be like wrestling with bear, lots of ways for it to go wrong and if it goes badly your day can end up shot to hell...some cases literally.
Lots of times we see video of encounters where people are given lawful commands (driver's license, insurance card, and registration.....or please step out of the vehicle....or PUT DOWN THE KNIFE..... or STOP POLICE....) met with an assertion of rights, or with violence, or a fleeing subject. What the subject(s) fail or refuse to understand is that the officer is within his charge to stop, question, detain for further investigation (issue a ticker or summons), or to arrest as needed.
It is the duty of the subject to comply with the legal orders and realize that it not the officers job to argue the nuances of the law, the vehicle code, or some other criminal code, it is simply the officer's job to enforce it as he has been trained. If the officer was trained to argue such things he would be a lawyer or a judge.
I retain the most vivid memory of a British officer met on a guided wilderness trip. He stood maybe 5'6" but was very fit and with deep training in unarmed combat -- he had competed in a high-level US event the week before. But above and beyond all that was his wonderful ability to engage others with humor and respect. It seems to me that has to come from inner qualities that can't be faked but are hard to learn. It's the opposite of the us-vs.-them mentality -- and training -- that 'justifies' officers shooting dead any crazy person that brandishes a knife. I knew many excellent law officers in my work, but for me this man will forever embody the ideal of a peace officer.
9
Why do these articles only point out situations where white cops killed black males (Freddie Gray, Garner, McDonald)? Why do they never site situatiions where white cops killed white males? Or latino cops killed black makes? Or black cops killed latino, black or white males? I think I know because of "race baiting". The media loves the situation including white males/black males. Same thing with Zimmerman, Bernard Getz, Michael Brown, etc... But the media (and black lives matters) ignores the thousands and thousands of black on black murders every year. And they never mention in these articles that black males are 6% of the US population but commit over 50% of the murders in the US and a similar disproportionate amount of violent crime. Because this would get in the way of their agenda of bashing the police and depicting black males always as "victims" of white racism. So predictable and politically correct.
9
Black on black crime along with the crime stats you present are all well known. There are many, many efforts to address those problems.
However, police crime against African Americans is an issue that is not sufficiently addressed. Most police on black crime, if you've been following the news, is merely given a perfunctory review and 99.99% of all police crimes against blacks are not prosecuted. If the police were sufficiently "policed" and prosecuted for their crimes, these events would not make a story.
However, police crime against African Americans is an issue that is not sufficiently addressed. Most police on black crime, if you've been following the news, is merely given a perfunctory review and 99.99% of all police crimes against blacks are not prosecuted. If the police were sufficiently "policed" and prosecuted for their crimes, these events would not make a story.
1
In the American departments, it is well known that a sure "in" to securing a policing job is to have served in the military. In that regard, US departments are drawing on recruits that have either served in military combat and/or the kill mentality instilled and necessary for the US Armed Forces.
While many of those skills are transferable from the military experience into US policing skills, much of the military mindset is not, and should not be imported into civilian life.
One of the reasons that shifting military experience into the public arena doesn't work is because the US military no longer mirrors our society, as it is now an all volunteer military that only draws on a tiny percentage of the US population to participate.
While many of those skills are transferable from the military experience into US policing skills, much of the military mindset is not, and should not be imported into civilian life.
One of the reasons that shifting military experience into the public arena doesn't work is because the US military no longer mirrors our society, as it is now an all volunteer military that only draws on a tiny percentage of the US population to participate.
5
Yea... being in the military is not a sure "in" to join a police department. It's helpful is all. And at least the military is well-trained in escalation of force.
I think the biggest difference between the police in Scotland and the U.S. is in the screening of who is proper police material. All the rules and training will not help if you have people who should never be police officers.
12
It's discouraging to read that people like Theresa Shortell, an assistant chief of the New York Police Department, are so unaware of what policing in the rest of the world is about. Regardless of how one feels about the absence of guns in police hands in other countries, I would have thought that officials would at least know about that state of affairs. Many ordinary citizens do ...
4
When I first moved to the US from the UK 15 years ago, I was stunned that police officers sat in their cars all the time. How could they talk to people? How could they be seen as being part of the street, rather than something moving through it? Are they too fat/unfit to get out and walk? Still don't really get it. In some US areas, police officers now patrol on bikes or segways, but they're still moving through, not staying and talking and observing.
14
The answer is simple. Cops don't get out of their cars because they think they get shot. The vehicle is their shield, their protection. In this country with so many guns around, that is indeed a far far bigger likelihood then in Scotland or Denmark. Their obesity is a result of the guns!
3
Most urban police departments are too understaffed to manage the very labor intensive foot patrols. Also, having lived in the inner city, you couldn't pay me to patrol alone on foot after dark in most cities.
And when they're not in their cars, at least in my neighborhood, they're at Dunkin Donuts or McDonalds buying their next snack
1
The we vs. them mentality has created an occupying army in this country. Giving police surplus military equipment exacerbates the problem. Military style uniforms reinforce the attitude. With no respect for the general population and contempt for the poor and minorities, it's a wonder we don't get more police shooting deaths on a daily basis.
19
"Rather than escalating a situation with weapons, easing it through talk is an essential policing tool,..............."
Using talk as an essential policing tool requires something a gun doesn't require; intelligence.
Courts have sanctioned hiring practices that allow police departments to discriminate *against* those with greater intelligence when hiring.
http://www.nytimes.com/1999/09/09/nyregion/metro-news-briefs-connecticut...
That was 1999, two years before 9/11 and the creation of Homeland Security which resulted in even more emphasis on military style policing by brute force. Pay scale is also a factor of course, but departments often look for brute force over intelligence because it's so much cheaper and 'easier' to subdue someone with brute force than it is to intelligently assess whatever situation it is and deal with it for what it is. That's part of why so many police officers are bullies at heart.
Using talk as an essential policing tool requires something a gun doesn't require; intelligence.
Courts have sanctioned hiring practices that allow police departments to discriminate *against* those with greater intelligence when hiring.
http://www.nytimes.com/1999/09/09/nyregion/metro-news-briefs-connecticut...
That was 1999, two years before 9/11 and the creation of Homeland Security which resulted in even more emphasis on military style policing by brute force. Pay scale is also a factor of course, but departments often look for brute force over intelligence because it's so much cheaper and 'easier' to subdue someone with brute force than it is to intelligently assess whatever situation it is and deal with it for what it is. That's part of why so many police officers are bullies at heart.
21
Despite their culture of violence, American police have a 3% prosecution rate for their brutality thanks to the collusion and protection of their unions, District Attorneys, and City Councils. Even our ethics commissions and IPR's are stacked & rigged. If you don't believe me, check your state's Corruption Risk Grade Card and check its overall grade, then drill in and check your ethics grade.
http://www.publicintegrity.org/2015/11/09/18822/how-does-your-state-rank...
Angry now? Taxpayers foot the bill and are cheated. Bad cops gobble up our city budgets. Good cops suffer at their hands. Please sign and share my petition demanding change, directed at the DOJ and IAPC. Do something constructive with your anger. Together we can effect healthy change.
https://secure.avaaz.org/en/petition/Police_can_be_improved_Stop_screeni...
http://www.publicintegrity.org/2015/11/09/18822/how-does-your-state-rank...
Angry now? Taxpayers foot the bill and are cheated. Bad cops gobble up our city budgets. Good cops suffer at their hands. Please sign and share my petition demanding change, directed at the DOJ and IAPC. Do something constructive with your anger. Together we can effect healthy change.
https://secure.avaaz.org/en/petition/Police_can_be_improved_Stop_screeni...
9
Anyone who lived in the UK while the NORAID hat was passed around Irish/American pubs knows full well what British bobbies are up against. Who do you think backs them up when the yobs or international terrorists want to get rough? Their idea of neighborhood watch is to construct a sangar inhabited by army units and Observation Posts with 12" telescopes inside the top of corporate buildings. And if you think there are no guns in Oxford then you don't know where to look.
2
Most police departments and police officers in the US don't understand that a lot of the violence perpetrated against them is a reaction to their aggressiveness to the public.
10
It's a shame that American police officials traveled to Scotland to discover the obvious....courtesy, professionalism and respect - the rhetorical slogan emblazoned on NYC police cars actually works! The real lesson to be learned is that Scottish Officers unlike their American counterparts apparently do not have an ingrained "Contempt for Blackness" and apparently do not join the police force to develop and maintain a sense of self-worth/self-esteem.
8
I don't see how this could work in the U.S.. The "security" forces I know here in the US tend to fear the poor and working classes. They certainly have no sympathy or compassion for them.
6
meant to say little sympathy or compassion.
1
Unless some one can come up with a giant magnet to confiscate every gun in the United States where as we can start from scratch this unarmed police discussion is pointless. Impressive in Scotland but suicide in the USA.
7
Australia should be a good guide to how the US can drastically reduce the amount of guns & violence in the US. Also outlawing the sale/ownership of bullets would make all those guns fairly useless.
2
Interesting that some US police officials said it's different here than in Scotland, in that suspects often have guns in the US. Excuse me, but wasn't every deadly-force shooting I've read about this year (Michael Brown, etc), against a suspect who was UNARMED?
The change needs to go both ways: combat our gun culture AND train the police to neutralize assailants without using deadly force. It's not just in Scotland that cops know how to do this, it's all over Europe and Asia too. They are trained in combat skills such as martial arts, and the Michael Brown situation would simply never have happened in, say, Italy or France or England.
You do not need to kill an unarmed man just because he is bigger than you. Properly trained law enforcement knows what to do in that situation. We have a culture of violence that is profoundly exacerbated by the prevalence of guns, but let's not kid ourselves: many police shootings are against people who did not even have a knife, let alone a gun.
The change needs to go both ways: combat our gun culture AND train the police to neutralize assailants without using deadly force. It's not just in Scotland that cops know how to do this, it's all over Europe and Asia too. They are trained in combat skills such as martial arts, and the Michael Brown situation would simply never have happened in, say, Italy or France or England.
You do not need to kill an unarmed man just because he is bigger than you. Properly trained law enforcement knows what to do in that situation. We have a culture of violence that is profoundly exacerbated by the prevalence of guns, but let's not kid ourselves: many police shootings are against people who did not even have a knife, let alone a gun.
15
What an eye opening article. What a night and day contrast in thinking about police intervention in civil society. What civilized response to violence among the Scots. Just the fact of my being surprised of their modus operandi shows how normalized has violence (on every side) become in this country. We still have a truly Wild Wild West mentality and live in an old Wild Wild West scenario in this country. I am highly critical of the gun and verbal violence that the police uses in this country but I was not aware that rather that use their guns cautiously, police even went unarmed elsewhere and used the magic of words to scale down confrontation. How refreshing to read about this. Perhaps there will be an "evolutionary" move toward that model sometime in the future. Probably everything needs to begin with a change in mindset about guns and violence, followed by the disarming of the civilian population and then the the police force. What a difference in the understanding of what "cowardice" is... I would offer yet another understanding of the term. Cowardice is moving into the civilian population to establish law an order in full army gear as the police in this country does these days. Soon they will use drones to shoot and even expose themselves less. NYT more articles like this. You had another very enlightening one on the humanness of the prison system in Norway. They offer ways of imagining alternative worlds (made real elsewhere).
12
Several differences between the Scottish v. American styles of policing. The number of individuals who can legally possess guns is extremely low in Scotland not like here in the United States. The civility of the population which is mainly a homogeneous one is another factor. And while there are areas within Scotland that are classified as tough the crime rates aren't matched to areas where policing is more difficult here in the United States where the rates of violence are much higher.
Police do talk to de-fuse incidents all the time. What gets on our You-Tube or what the media shows are in many instances where a legal arrest is being made and the offender is resisting. The overwhelming number of arrests in this country are done humanely and without violence by the police. The new trend is to show those that are ugly and seem offensive, because of the anti-police agenda in this country on social media. And the public is seeing what they never acknowledged nor would do themselves, police work can be very ugly business that we prefer others to do for us.
De-fusing an incident should always be an officers priority, but not about protecting himself and others first from the offender. I love the picture of the guy with the samurai sword standing over the officer. How do you think that would end here in the United States. One dead cop I'm thinking.
And while not all of the un-armed tactics of the Scottish police are transferable here some might be.
Police do talk to de-fuse incidents all the time. What gets on our You-Tube or what the media shows are in many instances where a legal arrest is being made and the offender is resisting. The overwhelming number of arrests in this country are done humanely and without violence by the police. The new trend is to show those that are ugly and seem offensive, because of the anti-police agenda in this country on social media. And the public is seeing what they never acknowledged nor would do themselves, police work can be very ugly business that we prefer others to do for us.
De-fusing an incident should always be an officers priority, but not about protecting himself and others first from the offender. I love the picture of the guy with the samurai sword standing over the officer. How do you think that would end here in the United States. One dead cop I'm thinking.
And while not all of the un-armed tactics of the Scottish police are transferable here some might be.
3
The guy on the ground may well be playing the victim under attack, not a police officer de-escalating.
You have some good points, but should recognize that there is a significant structural problem with American policing, and looking to other countries for possible models - that will take a generation to implement and have an effect - is a remarkably open-minded first step.
You have some good points, but should recognize that there is a significant structural problem with American policing, and looking to other countries for possible models - that will take a generation to implement and have an effect - is a remarkably open-minded first step.
Scotland is also becoming a multicultural society with growing minority populations of African and Asian immigrants including Muslims. Ethnic Scots are Celts, and feel like a group apart from Anglo-Saxon England, they've nearly gone confederate from England in recent referendums on seceding from the UK. The Scottish clans were always fighting warriors too, having stopped the Roman advance on their country along with several Anglo incursions into their territory, William Wallace, Rob Roy MacGregor etc.
Present day Scottish civility is a sign of healthy social attitudes and strength of character born out of their courage and learned humanity; they show that it is possible for white people and white authorities to act in a civilized manner toward the people they represent, even minorities.
All our American excuses for embracing guns, violence and Trump are unhealthy charades. This is 2015, not 1860 civil war times, or 1930 Weimar Germany. There's no excuse for the widespread American violence we suffer from today, except bad behavior on the part of our leadership to curb it using non-violent means, to lead by example.
Present day Scottish civility is a sign of healthy social attitudes and strength of character born out of their courage and learned humanity; they show that it is possible for white people and white authorities to act in a civilized manner toward the people they represent, even minorities.
All our American excuses for embracing guns, violence and Trump are unhealthy charades. This is 2015, not 1860 civil war times, or 1930 Weimar Germany. There's no excuse for the widespread American violence we suffer from today, except bad behavior on the part of our leadership to curb it using non-violent means, to lead by example.
7
It's so bizarre to be reading this. I thought we went through this during the riots of the 1970's! I thought the police had already learned how to stop killing civilians in low level threat situations. I feel like our country is going through a de-evolution process...
14
Hmm, low level. Like smashing up the store fronts, yanking drivers from their trucks, looting, throwing feces and urine at firemen?
1
What a mess of a society we Americans have created. Criminals carry guns because police carry guns, and they carry guns because so many people in America have guns.
In this deadly, vicious circle of violence, which police force will have the courage to stop carrying guns? Someone, somewhere needs to take the first step. I would love to have it be the police force in Salt Lake City, my home town.
In this deadly, vicious circle of violence, which police force will have the courage to stop carrying guns? Someone, somewhere needs to take the first step. I would love to have it be the police force in Salt Lake City, my home town.
17
Uh, you have that backwards but that's not unusual here. Police carry guns because criminal carry guns.
6
Wrong.
As I see it, criminals and other civilians are carrying guns due to heavy and successful lobbying by the NRA and affiliated "security" $industry$; that, and a perverse nostalgia for the Wild Wild West.
As I see it, criminals and other civilians are carrying guns due to heavy and successful lobbying by the NRA and affiliated "security" $industry$; that, and a perverse nostalgia for the Wild Wild West.
What an interesting article. May I add a little local color (or even colour) from this side of the Atlantic without being seen as horribly pedantic?
"Most British police officers are unarmed, a distinction particularly pronounced here in Scotland, where 98 percent of the country’s officers do not carry guns."
I'm sure that's true, but police guns are effectively invisible everywhere in Britain, at least outside airports and absent an imminent terrorist threat. True, the proportion of armed officers in England and Wales is a whopping 4.6 percent, but that's mostly accounted for by the fact that London's Metropolitan police service (MPS) is responsible for protecting embassies, politicians, the royal family and most of the buildings and institutions most likely to be targeted by terrorists. No secret service here.
To put that into context, armed police in England and Wales attended 14,864 incidents in 2013-2014. They fired their weapons twice.
Technically, all police officers in the UK are constables, but a police constable (PC) is the lowest rank in any service. Nobody has called assistant chief constable (the second-highest rank) Bernard Higgins "Constable Higgins" since he was a PC.
Kirk Kinnell is not *the* superintendent of Police Scotland. Superintendent is a rank in British police services, probably roughly equivalent to a captain in a large American police department. Scotland will have many.
Other than that, brilliant!
"Most British police officers are unarmed, a distinction particularly pronounced here in Scotland, where 98 percent of the country’s officers do not carry guns."
I'm sure that's true, but police guns are effectively invisible everywhere in Britain, at least outside airports and absent an imminent terrorist threat. True, the proportion of armed officers in England and Wales is a whopping 4.6 percent, but that's mostly accounted for by the fact that London's Metropolitan police service (MPS) is responsible for protecting embassies, politicians, the royal family and most of the buildings and institutions most likely to be targeted by terrorists. No secret service here.
To put that into context, armed police in England and Wales attended 14,864 incidents in 2013-2014. They fired their weapons twice.
Technically, all police officers in the UK are constables, but a police constable (PC) is the lowest rank in any service. Nobody has called assistant chief constable (the second-highest rank) Bernard Higgins "Constable Higgins" since he was a PC.
Kirk Kinnell is not *the* superintendent of Police Scotland. Superintendent is a rank in British police services, probably roughly equivalent to a captain in a large American police department. Scotland will have many.
Other than that, brilliant!
16
I lived in Scotland and rarely saw police except when they were out 'walking' a beat along the High St. Never hidden inside their vehicles. They were approachable as tour guides. The only time I saw more than one police officer was on Saturday nights downtown at bar closing hour when the hooligans would start trouble or fights would be quelled. All and all I never felt safer except when I lived in New Zealand. In both places I entered my home with a skeleton key.
I always felt paranoid returning to the US for visits. We don't realize how crazy it really is here until we go and live in a saner country for a while.
I always felt paranoid returning to the US for visits. We don't realize how crazy it really is here until we go and live in a saner country for a while.
93
So is there any way back from the dangerous road the US has traveled in terms of violence in daily life? It starts with challenging our stories, our police, our politicians, and the corporate power in politics and policy of people who amass wealth through violence... and that is not just gun manufacturers but they are certainly at the top. What about violent media and their profits? What about private prisons? What about lobbying firms and talk show radio hosts? I wish the NY Times would write an expose about all the ways US corporations and individuals profit from our culture of violence. We need to know how expansive the roots of the problem are so we can challenge it.
3
I wish more Americans could (afford to) travel overseas, especially to the other advanced nations, where civic policing in general is light years ahead. They'd see for themselves how the relationship between citizens and police officers can be completely different and much more oriented to the preservation of life through good sense, civility, and, when needed, de-escalation.
6
Interesting piece and an encouraging effort to find alternatives. The institutional mentality and professional ethic of the Scottish constabulary is a crucial factor.
For police in the U.S., a country literally inundated with powerful firearms in the hands of law abiding citizens, criminals, malcontents and psychologically disturbed individuals, policing can be very like being in a counter-insurgency war zone where the threat of mortal attack can come from any quarter with little or no warning. The presumption that any situation can escalate into a deadly confrontation is ever present.
This is a profound psychological stressor. It leads to an institutionalized war fighting mentality in which survival becomes an overpowering focus. It also leads to tactics that place the greatest emphasis on rapidly and forcefully gaining control of any situation that potentially poses a deadly threat.
That there are not more incidents of the use of deadly force by our police is in a way counterintuitive given the persistent threat of mortal harm. In a sense it is a testimonial to the restraint routinely exercised.
As long as America remains armed to the teeth, both civil authorities and the citizenry, this mode of police response will more often than not trump deescalation and resort to non-lethal means.
For police in the U.S., a country literally inundated with powerful firearms in the hands of law abiding citizens, criminals, malcontents and psychologically disturbed individuals, policing can be very like being in a counter-insurgency war zone where the threat of mortal attack can come from any quarter with little or no warning. The presumption that any situation can escalate into a deadly confrontation is ever present.
This is a profound psychological stressor. It leads to an institutionalized war fighting mentality in which survival becomes an overpowering focus. It also leads to tactics that place the greatest emphasis on rapidly and forcefully gaining control of any situation that potentially poses a deadly threat.
That there are not more incidents of the use of deadly force by our police is in a way counterintuitive given the persistent threat of mortal harm. In a sense it is a testimonial to the restraint routinely exercised.
As long as America remains armed to the teeth, both civil authorities and the citizenry, this mode of police response will more often than not trump deescalation and resort to non-lethal means.
3
from Bob: I remember a time when we never went a day without "shots fired" reports in the Brooklyn precinct I worked in. That year (1990/91) 2,262 people were murdered and over 6,000 shot. We took thousands of weapons and "bad guys" off the street and we drove the aforementioned numbers to 335 murders and just over 1,000 shot. More importantly, we stopped the downward slide towards the 'urban blight' that ravaged so many other cities. Did I only imagine this whole thing and might we have accomplished this disarmed?
Maybe it's me, but I fail to see this apples vs. oranges exchange as relevant to our society. It would seem that the Scots (who have not caused so much suffering and resultant dire consequences from building a society based in part, by human bondage and inequality) could benefit by learning from us; at least what not to do!.
Maybe it's me, but I fail to see this apples vs. oranges exchange as relevant to our society. It would seem that the Scots (who have not caused so much suffering and resultant dire consequences from building a society based in part, by human bondage and inequality) could benefit by learning from us; at least what not to do!.
4
Seems they've already learned and are practicing it!
Always the others have to learn from us. That is part of the American mindset. It's a knew jerk reaction.
I agree with almost all of your comment. My Scottish ancestors intermarried. However - many Scots went to the British colonies and participated in slavery. They racism was exported.
With a black population, including those defining themselves as "African", of just 0.8%, Scotland does not have the urban crime breeding ground of disaffected black youth that is found in the large American cities. Nor do they have a porous border with a neighbor giving virtually uncontrolled access to unvetted millions.
Policing is ever so much easier with a homogeneous population. When I was growing up in Winnipeg in the 50's, the police were unarmed. I still remember vividly every detail of my first shocked sight of an American policeman, sitting at the counter in a Grand Forks diner, with his pistol in a holster handing from his belt, and that was 50 years ago.
Winnipeg was almost totally white, with a poor, alcohol-plagued minority of "First Nations" people -- we called them simply Indians back then. Times have changed, demographics have changed, and now all Winnipeg police carry guns.
Using Scotland as a model for what US police must face is inappropriate. Adopting their police attitude in part may help, but face it: Our criminal population isn't going to do the same.
Policing is ever so much easier with a homogeneous population. When I was growing up in Winnipeg in the 50's, the police were unarmed. I still remember vividly every detail of my first shocked sight of an American policeman, sitting at the counter in a Grand Forks diner, with his pistol in a holster handing from his belt, and that was 50 years ago.
Winnipeg was almost totally white, with a poor, alcohol-plagued minority of "First Nations" people -- we called them simply Indians back then. Times have changed, demographics have changed, and now all Winnipeg police carry guns.
Using Scotland as a model for what US police must face is inappropriate. Adopting their police attitude in part may help, but face it: Our criminal population isn't going to do the same.
11
Well, pulling back from shooting some kid in the back, hiding it and having others not lie and hide it with you is a start.
1
Agree with this very sane reasoning. I do not think all the lessons that can be learned from the Scottish experience are applicable here.
1
Kay, why do you think that never happens to you?
So many of the comments here have to do with the gun culture or the demographics of the U.S. Those are two other issues. The big issue right now is that fact that cops are shooting/killing unarmed or unequally armed people with alarming frequency.
Many of the victims are in some state of emotional distress, and, to me, the police response to shoot and kill is a mark of a law enforcement culture that has gone off the rails. I hope the visit to Scotland helps right things, but I remember hearing on NPR that it could take decades to get policing back to a less aggressive state.
Many of the victims are in some state of emotional distress, and, to me, the police response to shoot and kill is a mark of a law enforcement culture that has gone off the rails. I hope the visit to Scotland helps right things, but I remember hearing on NPR that it could take decades to get policing back to a less aggressive state.
10
Because we decided to leave the world of cable & satellite TV, we now save about a hundred dollars per month. We are learning to navigate the world of Apple TV with Hulu, Netflix & HBO Now. My wife & I have become hooked on BBC & ITV detective & cop shows. Compared to the NRA-USA, Great Britain is Mars as far as policing goes.
We also know we're watching fiction on our TV sets, but what we're watching appears to be accurate as far as the conduct of the police in Great Britain.
As this article states, most of their cops don't carry guns. Their system of policing also requires each cop to treat people they encounter with respect, always mindful of their rights, with harsh punishment if they don't. It's not the Wild West in Great Britain & their statistics prove it.
If every US cop was required to watch 100 hours of European cop TV, it might plant a seed of how policing is done right & thousands of lives would be saved. Cops have more weapons & communication devices than ever before in human history, yet seem much more afraid while they do their work. Not only have we seen many black men gunned down from a distance, the criminal act being caught on video says to me modern cops are cowards.
The last time cops came to my house, they couldn't believe I lived in such a dangerous neighborhood. I've lived in the family home nearly 50 years. My neighbors are the working poor & aren't dangerous at all. Yet the cops are scared to police here. Can't they read statistics?
We also know we're watching fiction on our TV sets, but what we're watching appears to be accurate as far as the conduct of the police in Great Britain.
As this article states, most of their cops don't carry guns. Their system of policing also requires each cop to treat people they encounter with respect, always mindful of their rights, with harsh punishment if they don't. It's not the Wild West in Great Britain & their statistics prove it.
If every US cop was required to watch 100 hours of European cop TV, it might plant a seed of how policing is done right & thousands of lives would be saved. Cops have more weapons & communication devices than ever before in human history, yet seem much more afraid while they do their work. Not only have we seen many black men gunned down from a distance, the criminal act being caught on video says to me modern cops are cowards.
The last time cops came to my house, they couldn't believe I lived in such a dangerous neighborhood. I've lived in the family home nearly 50 years. My neighbors are the working poor & aren't dangerous at all. Yet the cops are scared to police here. Can't they read statistics?
8
Funnily enough, I just shared this article on Facebook and asked my American friends a closely related question.
When I watch American cop shows, I'm constantly amazed by how arrogant, confrontational and rude officers are when dealing with apparently innocent members of the public -- the people who pay their salaries.
And, as a Brit who's never had an encounter with American law enforcement, I've never known for sure whether those scenes are there for dramatic effect or because they reflect reality.
Either way, it's dangerous, because potential recruits watch this stuff, and may end up believing it's how they should act.
When I watch American cop shows, I'm constantly amazed by how arrogant, confrontational and rude officers are when dealing with apparently innocent members of the public -- the people who pay their salaries.
And, as a Brit who's never had an encounter with American law enforcement, I've never known for sure whether those scenes are there for dramatic effect or because they reflect reality.
Either way, it's dangerous, because potential recruits watch this stuff, and may end up believing it's how they should act.
3
This attitude of the hard talking cop goes right back to the films I saw as a boy seventz years ago. The casual way respectable people reporters etc could be threatened always amazed me. Is it or was it true? I dont know but there is one thing to consider regarding American law enforcement.
America has until recently been an untamed wild west country. In sich a society the police are always nervouse about suspects escaping their reach so there is always the tendency to round up EVERY possible suspect however harmless before they can get away. In several ways this attitude is possible connected to the use of firearms by the police..Stop him or he will get away may well be built into the minds of the police as they take out their guns..and get away doesnt mean moving from one well policed part of London to another it means moving two thousand miles away!
However why dont the police (except for specialist groups ) in say New York simply decide to give up their guns for say five years ..and see what happens .? The results might be surprising.
America has until recently been an untamed wild west country. In sich a society the police are always nervouse about suspects escaping their reach so there is always the tendency to round up EVERY possible suspect however harmless before they can get away. In several ways this attitude is possible connected to the use of firearms by the police..Stop him or he will get away may well be built into the minds of the police as they take out their guns..and get away doesnt mean moving from one well policed part of London to another it means moving two thousand miles away!
However why dont the police (except for specialist groups ) in say New York simply decide to give up their guns for say five years ..and see what happens .? The results might be surprising.
Well it is gratifying to learn this visit is taking place. Every time I hear of another young person who "might" have had gun or knife being shot and killed by the police here, all I can think of is places like the UK where they routinely deal with situations like that without killing people.
10
It's very simple: Cops over there don't carry guns because the people over there don't have guns. They don't have guns because there's nothing like the NRA there to buy and intimidaate politicians.
20
This is great news although it seems Scottish cops lack the killer instinct, disregard for human life, and the belief that no one can touch them, as US cops do.
14
Excellent idea to learning de-escalation and tactics from police in Europe. In seeing videos of police force in the US, we see an absence of attempting verbal negotiation, physical take-downs or even bothering to chase people when they are running. Too many officers look overweight and out of shape and that may be a part of it. Pulling a weapon as the first resort is simply lazy. No more shooting people: unarmed, in wheelchairs, with butter knives, with mental illness emergencies, and in the back. Also, when its necessary to shoot, how about aiming for the leg and not the heart. Retraining will save lives and keep police safer. It will also deter people with bad intentions from joining the academy in the first place.
10
Perhaps they can teach these visiting delegates how to say 'black lives matter' in Scots Gaelic.
4
Ned,
You are far more likely to be shot/beaten by the Police in America
if you are poor.
As the larger Inner Cities have large minority populations and high crime
levels, the police are far more likely to confront someone with a gun
than they are in the Suburbs.
That leads to more violent confrontations.
All lives matter, but the lives of the poor seem to matter far less.
You are far more likely to be shot/beaten by the Police in America
if you are poor.
As the larger Inner Cities have large minority populations and high crime
levels, the police are far more likely to confront someone with a gun
than they are in the Suburbs.
That leads to more violent confrontations.
All lives matter, but the lives of the poor seem to matter far less.
3
Yes they do, always have, always will. Let's be honest about the role of status in human societies.
1
If police in the U.S. stood up against gun violence and the firearms lobby with the same energy and vigor their unions use to pursue salary and benefit increases, America would be a much safer place.
Because there are such vast cultural and social differences between Scotland and the U.S., the information exchange described in the story seems to be fairly useless and little more than a boondoggle. Until you get a significantly large number of guns off America's streets, cops are going to continue to be wary of everyone they stop, and rightfully so. While I'm appalled every time I read of an innocent and unarmed person killed at the hands of the police, I can understand how an officer might approach some suspects with nervousness and apprehension, and a feeling that if they don't shoot first, they might end up dead.
We can thank the NRA and the gun lobby for this atmosphere and it baffles me why the cops aren't marching on Washington to stop the proliferation of firearms.
Because there are such vast cultural and social differences between Scotland and the U.S., the information exchange described in the story seems to be fairly useless and little more than a boondoggle. Until you get a significantly large number of guns off America's streets, cops are going to continue to be wary of everyone they stop, and rightfully so. While I'm appalled every time I read of an innocent and unarmed person killed at the hands of the police, I can understand how an officer might approach some suspects with nervousness and apprehension, and a feeling that if they don't shoot first, they might end up dead.
We can thank the NRA and the gun lobby for this atmosphere and it baffles me why the cops aren't marching on Washington to stop the proliferation of firearms.
147
Most police officers, no matter their race, religion or education, don't much care for politicians like Obama or de Blasio nor do they believe the 2nd Amendment will be abolished in their lifetime.
1
It is a culture and mindset of violence, not just an armed civilian and cop population. It is the verbal interactions and provocations, the going out in full army gear, the attitude of never "retreat"...
2
Police officers do not retreat for several good reasons. Word gets around.
Police officers advance until the criminal is apprehended or the threat is stopped for a very good reasons. Word gets around.
Police officers advance until the criminal is apprehended or the threat is stopped for a very good reasons. Word gets around.
I love the British Police, but they are also just one part of a more humane system that is also important If a suspect is arrested they know they'll be treated well with easy access to good lawyers, a clean safe Jail, fair court system, no DA looking for tough-on-crime votes and no death penalty. This makes suspects more accepting of the system the police represent.
1
The article didn't mention the one key difference in the British style of police enforcement: they use force of numbers. British police facing a violent individual will wait (or retreat) until there's three or four police officers ready to confront the guy. The NYPD always operate in partner teams and will never let their partner out of their sight but a lot of US police officers work on their own in spread-out suburban or rural areas. If all police officers worked with a partner and had backup just a few minutes away, there would be a lot fewer situations where cops drew guns.
1
I propse that those of us who would prefer a system like the Scotish have, should join law enforcement. They are certainly convinced that "peace and understanding will change a society that is marinated in exploitation and corruption, from the halls of justice to local bureaucracy. What tactics would a chicken use when confronted by a wolf? Yes, liberals as protectors of society.
2
We should not have to learn from other countries how not to kill people. Most of the police shootings making the news these days violate our common sense. None of them have left us thinking "well, what else should he have done?"
Much of the problem, in my opinion, is the questionable psychological and moral character of the people being hired for police work. We need generally better educated people fill this role. It is a complex and emotionally demanding job, and the escalation in unwarranted violence reflects the fact that police hiring practices do not respect that
Much of the problem, in my opinion, is the questionable psychological and moral character of the people being hired for police work. We need generally better educated people fill this role. It is a complex and emotionally demanding job, and the escalation in unwarranted violence reflects the fact that police hiring practices do not respect that
A great article; but be aware of the flip side. Unarmed police means a slower response to terrorist/active shooter situations. When Lee Rigby was killed in London there was a marked delay before firearms police arrived, during which passers-by talked to the killers, trying to recover his body.
I have concerns re how the UK's small numbers of armed police would cope with a multi-site terrorist event like that seen in Paris recently. In contrast, I was impressed by the proactive way in which Boston police chased down the Marahon bombers, revolvers in hand.
I have concerns re how the UK's small numbers of armed police would cope with a multi-site terrorist event like that seen in Paris recently. In contrast, I was impressed by the proactive way in which Boston police chased down the Marahon bombers, revolvers in hand.
1
One simply cannot compare Scotland to the streets of America's large cities. It's like apples and oranges. Wishful thinking here I'm afraid.
4
There are those who look at things the way they are, and ask why... I dream of things that never were, and ask why not?
Robert F. Kennedy, also a victim of gun violence.
Robert F. Kennedy, also a victim of gun violence.
So then let's take the question back one step, why are the street's in America so violent?
What good is having a gun or many guns if you can't use it? You can't fix a crazed culture. Canada, Switzerland citizens have many guns but don't feel inclined to use them. Americans love guns and the right to use them more than protecting innocent people from harm. It's hopeless.
2
It will not work here in United States. God.....Gun....and Guts......makes this country different than rest of the world.
1
Agreed. I am grateful some want to try to change that.
Sorry to ruin your alliteration, but I would replace "guts" with "fear".
1
Let's take the guns out of people's hands, except for military and law enforcement, and then maybe the police can stop shooting first and asking questions later. As long as we have more guns than people in this country, the police have to assume that they will be shot at and they simply try to shoot first. Who wouldn't?
2
Not necessary to travel anywhere, just DON'T aim to kill.
3
The Scottish were defeated militarily by the English and cowed into becoming the junior partners in the United Kingdom. The British Crown disarmed the Scottish population except for some hunting guns a long time ago. And they are almost completely disarmed now.
The Scots also have strict immigration laws for the world outside the EU and British Commonwealth, and over 60% of Scots identify themselves as Scottish only.
Oh, and Scotland has a smaller population than New York City. Fewer than a quarter million Scottish residents identify themselves as related to anywhere outside the British Isles.
http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2015/dec/11/police-shoot-man-intellig...
The Scots also have strict immigration laws for the world outside the EU and British Commonwealth, and over 60% of Scots identify themselves as Scottish only.
Oh, and Scotland has a smaller population than New York City. Fewer than a quarter million Scottish residents identify themselves as related to anywhere outside the British Isles.
http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2015/dec/11/police-shoot-man-intellig...
3
One just have to look at 2 videos : the Chicago Laquan McDonald shooting and how UK police handled the knife wielding madman in the subway. Laquan was shot dead while walking away from officers and the London knife wielding madman was teasered and handcuffed without a shot fired. Just a different attitude about law enforcement, and a lot more respect for human lives...
6
America is a country pervaded by the culture of violence. We can trace the philosophy of our Founding Fathers in the works of David Hume and Adam Smith, humanists of unmatched wisdom, but that is where Scotland and US begin to differ. Scotland addresses violence without guns that can make it worse, whereat in the US the gun culture is supposed to reduce violence, and what a false argument that is!
3
I would love to see the fantasists who think cops should be without guns respond to one day of NYPD calls in Brownsville, Brooklyn.
I have been to the UK many times and have many friends there - their police are a national joke. They are incredibly passive and prone to enforcing petty regulations and ignoring felonies.
It's not their fault either - that's how their government incentivizes them to do their job.
Take the weapons out of the hands of American cops, and poor people - especially poor black people - will start dying by their tens of thousands from black on black crime.
I have been to the UK many times and have many friends there - their police are a national joke. They are incredibly passive and prone to enforcing petty regulations and ignoring felonies.
It's not their fault either - that's how their government incentivizes them to do their job.
Take the weapons out of the hands of American cops, and poor people - especially poor black people - will start dying by their tens of thousands from black on black crime.
10
Yeah, we're becoming like Mexico in terms of gun violence on every side, police and civilians. Mexico seems to be our star.
I could have them the airline fare of Scotland. If there were few guns in civillian hands, police officers - even if armed - would be less likely to wield their weapons as their first instinct.
1
In US police don't see themselves as members of the community but some sort of local sanctioned militia who have an attitude. Then they spend innordinate amount of time sitting in cars trying to issue speeding tickets to make their quota. Especially now when people are out getting their Christmas shopping.
The Scottish police typically show up after the trouble. They show up after the knock down drag out fights in the pubs. Just go visit the Royal Infirmary on a Saturday morning mate and see the damage that is done! You can not really blame them the trouble makers are drunk or very high on drugs.
Also in Scotland and the UK in general , the media does not glorify bad guys who bullies that attack people. The media does not glorify bad guys who will NOT listen to the police.
And when the pubs close and the drunks roll out into the streets starting fights make sure your front door is locked and you have got a baseball bat or something to protect yourself. You may find yourself wishing you had a gun to protect your family. Cause rest assure the Scottish police will show up after the disturbance. You can not really blame them since they are unarmed.
One more important point Scotland does not have the level of poverty and violence that you see in these New York housing projects.
Cheers Mate!!
Also in Scotland and the UK in general , the media does not glorify bad guys who bullies that attack people. The media does not glorify bad guys who will NOT listen to the police.
And when the pubs close and the drunks roll out into the streets starting fights make sure your front door is locked and you have got a baseball bat or something to protect yourself. You may find yourself wishing you had a gun to protect your family. Cause rest assure the Scottish police will show up after the disturbance. You can not really blame them since they are unarmed.
One more important point Scotland does not have the level of poverty and violence that you see in these New York housing projects.
Cheers Mate!!
4
You can't reasonably compare the two countries. Wisconsin has more people then Scotland. Almost all the residents of Scotland are Scotts. It is way easier to talk to someone when you are related to them.
3
From Scottish lips to American eyes and ears and brains and hearts and common sense repositories. This American insanity can be made a whole lot better with a sea change in attitudes and definition of mission and responsibilities.
We have crept inexorably toward a siege mentality....with macho with a side of macho substituting for thoughtful engagement.
Oh what wonders has our cowboy culture wrought.
We have crept inexorably toward a siege mentality....with macho with a side of macho substituting for thoughtful engagement.
Oh what wonders has our cowboy culture wrought.
The 2014 FBI Uniform Crime Report (Data Table 43: Arrests) shows that blacks and Hispanics make up 61.7 percent of those arrested in the United States for violent crimes. The most recent census shows Scotland is 0.1 percent black and doesn’t have enough Hispanics to county as a separated demographic group. The United States should be compared to other countries that have large black and Hispanic populations rather than countries such as Scotland, which is 96 percent white.
5
The Scots and Brits didn't racially segregate their population either. They just exported that idea to the U.S. and the Caribbean.
2
Labeling people as "Black" and "Hispanic" is an English speaking white American's way of racially pigeonholing people they believe to be beneath their station in American society. OK, let's use this convention based on English speaking white supremacy. America has a problem with violence coming from the top down, with non-white citizens having had their human rights violated for decades, no, for centuries in our country. Bad behavior today from all Americans was learned from the historical methods used by white American authorities when they set up our country's system of justice. Our high levels of social violence today, that is perpetrated by majority whites on themselves and on minorities, reflects our unjust and violent history. Our violent society will only free itself from this violence when our leaders with authority over American citizens embrace non-violent means of governance. Local municipalities stockpiling weapons of war like armored troop carriers, tanks, and automatic weapons doesn't set a good example for the citizenry, in fact, it kind of looks like Germany in the 1930's. Perhaps this is why Donald Trump is so popular with the guns and violence crowd stockpiling guns and ammo today every time gun control measures are discussed after violent atrocities occur in our society, on what seems like a weekly basis these days.
2
Interracial violence in the United States is overwhelming black-on-white violence.
Great article, very informative, but I'm surprised that it didn't compare the homicide rate in Scotland (1.0) to the rate in the U.S. (4.0) as an indication of the threat levels faced by American law officers.
3
The Scots have a much higher quality and more homogenous population like Iceland, Norway, Denmark, etc., than the USA that has become a racial, ethnic and cultural cesspit. Makes a big difference.
1
Perhaps something like these conferences can help America. But I doubt it. Life is expendable in the US. Starting with individuals, Americans own guns with the intent of killing their fellow citizens if they play the wrong kind of music, make noise in a movie theater, and if they are in any way maybe threatening. In America that is okay.
Our nation can kill anyone in the world, including Americans, with impunity if we think they threaten the power of our nation and if we kill their friends and families, well, that is okay too.
Individuals become police to seek fairness for society? That is a real howler, isn't it? In every case of police killing a citizen in the US, where were the other witnessing police? What reports did they file? Where was the fairness? The answer is that individuals do not become police to seek societal fairness. Their behavior does not reveal that at all. There are no Serpicos anymore, are there?
So there can be community policing manuals and training galore with no effect. Police are killers, because Americans are killers. We want our police to kill 'the other', the poor, the disorderly, minorities if they are threatening.
Our nation can kill anyone in the world, including Americans, with impunity if we think they threaten the power of our nation and if we kill their friends and families, well, that is okay too.
Individuals become police to seek fairness for society? That is a real howler, isn't it? In every case of police killing a citizen in the US, where were the other witnessing police? What reports did they file? Where was the fairness? The answer is that individuals do not become police to seek societal fairness. Their behavior does not reveal that at all. There are no Serpicos anymore, are there?
So there can be community policing manuals and training galore with no effect. Police are killers, because Americans are killers. We want our police to kill 'the other', the poor, the disorderly, minorities if they are threatening.
3
Until the second amendment is not enforced literally, that only a WELL TRAINED MILITIA can own and carry guns, this is all wishful thinking.
2
Other than we have a majority white police force, as it appears from the photos so does Scotland, what else is there in common between us and them? Couldn't our leaders find a demographically and socially dissimilar place to do there research? Of course, Scotland is a beautiful place for them to travel to, which makes the trips worthwhile for those who get to take them.
1
What's most interesting is that many police in the article were concerned about the number of guns on the street, and considered that as a reason for American police officer to pack. However, recent police shootings in Chicago and most recently in San Francisco involved people with knives. They were both shot an incomprehensible number of times.
Scotland's police show that you don't have to use a gun to subdue or talk down a person with a knife. Perhaps the number of guns on the street make it impossible for police to patrol without one themselves. But they don't have to use them so often.
Scotland's police show that you don't have to use a gun to subdue or talk down a person with a knife. Perhaps the number of guns on the street make it impossible for police to patrol without one themselves. But they don't have to use them so often.
5
The answer is SO simple. Get Guns Off the Streets of America and law enforcement officials can get rid of theirs and get back to serving the people instead of functioning in paranoia and seeing us as the enemy.
10
A refreshing look at how a police department can control and diffuse a potentially violent situation - without using a gun. Like someone mentioned earlier in their comments, many of the victims who were killed by police recently in altercations popularized by the media were either unarmed or had a knife. That's it. The only person who had a gun was the cop.
Unfortunately, the gun culture in our American society is so ingrained in our brains that it will be hard to turn back. We certainly can learn from the Scots.
Unfortunately, the gun culture in our American society is so ingrained in our brains that it will be hard to turn back. We certainly can learn from the Scots.
9
I don't think anyone here is suggesting that police in the US abandon their guns. I believe what is more relevant is the de-escalation processes which the Scots use, which can help turn bad situations into manageable ones without having to resort to shooting a suspect.
22
The idea to go to Scotland was born last year when Chuck Wexler, the executive director of the Police Executive Research Forum, was here for a leadership program. Speaking to a police recruit, Mr. Wexler noticed he had no gun on his belt.
“It hit me like a ton of bricks,” said Mr. Wexler, who was consumed at the time by the fallout from the death of Michael Brown in Ferguson.
He didn't know that before he went there???
“It hit me like a ton of bricks,” said Mr. Wexler, who was consumed at the time by the fallout from the death of Michael Brown in Ferguson.
He didn't know that before he went there???
6
Sounds like a nice boondoggle trip at US tax payers expense. Enjoy the sites mate.
1
The difference between here and Scotland is that they are one of the most civilized countries in the world where morality and respect for the law still takes the high road. Remember their election to break away from the UK? Voter turnout was 96%. Can anyone imagine that type of participation in the US? I think we would have a much different country than we have now.
26
"...one of the most civilized countries in the world...." Is this the same Glasgow in which I grew up scared to death of the gangs? My brother's philosophy rings true time and again as I think back to Glasgow, a city that still keeps me from being nostalgic for "home." He said, "I'd rather be homeless on the streets of New York than the richest man in Glasgow." If you haven't lived there, you know nothing about how violent a culture it is, especially when they're drunk.
5
Maybe if we had an election about breaking the country in half, we'd have a high turnout as well.
2
It was not 96%. It was 85%. And it was a vote for independence, a 300-year old dream, not voting for NYC mayor. Do get your facts right.
Notice how slender the police trainees are in the accompanying photograph and how many women are in the group. This is in sharp contrast to the roid-ridden testosterone monsters that we often see on our city streets. Yes, we have serious race issues in this nation; issues that only seem to be getting worse over time. But we have some serious masculinity issues as well. Thuggish "warriors" shooting at thuggish gang members and conversely; male pride and anger ramping up minor conflicts to deadly duels; an entire culture of strutting male egos with an unquenchable thirst for violence and control.
53
Has anyone told the NRA there is a whole country that is a "gun-free" zone? Wait, let's change that to a whole country where no police officer has been killed since 1994 and that was with a knife.
71
Lynda: Scotland is only part of a whole country, and the population is less than six million.
1
Here in New Zealand we have had no police officers killed by gunfire on duty since at least 1887, when records began. And no, it was not relying on the 'good guys with guns' that did that.
1
Scotland is part of the United Kingdom with a separate Parliament and considerable "self rule". The number of people is irrelevant; it is the number of guns in the hands of people. 350 million + for 300 million men, women and children in the US. See the problem?
1
Not to excuse the excessive police violence we have all been reading about, I can't help but wonder if America's insane gun culture does not share some of the blame. Cops responding to reports of criminal activity may simply assume, as a matter of survival, that any miscreant they approach may be armed with a gun, possibly a powerful one.
69
It's a big part of the problem my friend.
1
I had a friend in the Scottish police force who was very proud of his department - they hadn't fired a shot outside of training in years. YEARS. What we have in the US is a huge cultural problem - our love affair with guns and the perceived heroism that comes with them.
255
To my eyes, the Scottish, British and Continental European police are far more brave and heroic than their US counterparts --who are outfitted for a combat zone yet their constant (and disingenuous) mantra is "I was in fear fot my life."
And those seven majical words, "I was in fear fot my life," absolve American police of the heinous killings --killings that would cause civilians or any of the aforementioned nation's polices to be treated as grave criminal acts.
And those seven majical words, "I was in fear fot my life," absolve American police of the heinous killings --killings that would cause civilians or any of the aforementioned nation's polices to be treated as grave criminal acts.
1
And if the Scottish police carried firearms, they'd be sending personnel over here for workshops on profiling and gunning down minorities. It's really not so much about weapons, but about attitudes toward law enforcement. Our cops' attitudes need to change, but that would entail a raft of other changes such as educational requirements for entering police service and, yes, psychological profiling of prospective candidates.
1
In principal, I'm all for this effort - Police in the US do often seem to succumb to the "gun fight at OK Corral syndrome".
But until we get rid of the pervasive ownership of guns. this will not work.
But until we get rid of the pervasive ownership of guns. this will not work.
6
A few year ago I watched the changing of the guard at Buckingham Palace. The police were trying to keep tourist off an opposite wall, the climbing of which afforded a better view. Tourist kept climbing aware it was easier to do so than for the police to keep them off. One of the police loudly said, getting a laugh from the law-abiding crowd, "There are always a few idiots who don't follow directions." In other words, the police were using public humiliation as an attempt to enforce compliance. I thought that American police would either give up or charge in to arrest a climber. BUT WOULD PUBLIC HUMILIATION BE ACCEPTED IN AMERICAN CITIES?
8
The police would probably be censured with some sort of idiotic PC regulation for "shaming".
8
And would humiliation work especially with real criminals. Probably not.
1
Yes- and racism; let's not forget that-
Nice - but a ridiculous comparison. Scotland does not have the same level of violent modern history. Nor does Scotland have the same history of street violence against the police. Case in point - the last officer murdered was in 1994. You have had more murdered police officers in just this year in NYC alone than in that country of Scotland in 20 years. Doesn't compute!
16
"Scotland does not have the same level of violent modern history"
You have obviously never been to Glasgow.
You have obviously never been to Glasgow.
2
The street violence in Glasgow is nowhere on the level of what took place in modern American cities. Not even close. Go check the murder rates.
1
Glasgow would have a murder rate similar to Chicago's if Scotland had the same gun laws as America.
Of course, Scottish police don't have to deal with a heavily armed population, where just about anyone can pop down to the local Walmart and pick up a gun on their lunch break. They don't live in a country where the legislature is bought and paid for a by a lobbying group representing gun manufacturers (although ostensibly they claim to represent gun owners). Where that legislature just voted to allow individuals on the possible terrorist no-fly list to continue to get guns.
Instead, Scottish police live in a country where, after a school massacre, there was an almost immediate move to ban guns, not one where, after a massacre, gun laws are loosened.
I've never understood why U.S. police departments aren't leading the charge for more common sense restrictions on guns. They are the ones who have to face these heavily armed individuals every day.
Instead, Scottish police live in a country where, after a school massacre, there was an almost immediate move to ban guns, not one where, after a massacre, gun laws are loosened.
I've never understood why U.S. police departments aren't leading the charge for more common sense restrictions on guns. They are the ones who have to face these heavily armed individuals every day.
218
There are too MANY restrictions on guns. In backward places like New York City a person can't even GET a concealed carry permit. We have had countless laws concerning drug use over the years and we haven't accomplished anything. The same with gun laws. Why would any logical person expect anything different? Except for a basic background check and prohibition of guns for those who are violent or mentally ill there are none that will further reduce their use in crime.
That's inane gjdagis! The only reason guns and drugs have anything to do with one another is that some drugs are illegal and people want them so there's a market for criminals who can easily acquire guns. If you de-criminalized drugs and made them essentially free, then there wouldn't be a market that criminals could exploit (using guns).
Then you could have REALLY effective gun laws and absolutely prohibit all kinds of ultra-potent weaponry which you should have no need or right to own in a civil society. Then you'd never have a "Sandy Hook" type incident which was so devastating primarily because the kid shooter's mom was a gun nut.
Then you could have REALLY effective gun laws and absolutely prohibit all kinds of ultra-potent weaponry which you should have no need or right to own in a civil society. Then you'd never have a "Sandy Hook" type incident which was so devastating primarily because the kid shooter's mom was a gun nut.
1
If that's the case why are there so many more deaths - never mind mass shootings - by guns in this country as opposed to places that have strict gun laws like Scotland or Canada or Australia or Japan? Are Americans just inherently more violent and mentally disturbed?
The long-standing American model of policing requires that officers obtain immediate and total control over a situation, and never retreat from a threat. This ethic gets exaggerated even further when officers interpret the need to obtain total control to include obtaining total respect from civilians. The result is all too often a grotesque escalation.
We've seen video from a number of recent traffic stops, where a cop legitimately pulls over a driver and asks for the driver's license. The driver refuses, and maybe says something profane or otherwise disrespectful, an argument follows, and next thing we know the officer is yanking the driver out of the car and forcing him or her to the ground. The driver squirms or even actively resists and ends up dead.
If you look at each step of the escalation on its own, the officer's actions look reasonable in light of the prevailing policing model. But if you look at the entire transaction, you have effectively imposed the death penalty for failing to signal a turn.
We need a whole new model of policing that requires officers to avoid escalation out of proportion to the underlying situation. The vast majority of encounters with police are over little stuff, from traffic violations, to pot-smoking, to selling loose cigarettes, to walking in the middle of the street. We need to find a way to deal with the little stuff without violence.
politicsbyeccehomo.wordpress.com
We've seen video from a number of recent traffic stops, where a cop legitimately pulls over a driver and asks for the driver's license. The driver refuses, and maybe says something profane or otherwise disrespectful, an argument follows, and next thing we know the officer is yanking the driver out of the car and forcing him or her to the ground. The driver squirms or even actively resists and ends up dead.
If you look at each step of the escalation on its own, the officer's actions look reasonable in light of the prevailing policing model. But if you look at the entire transaction, you have effectively imposed the death penalty for failing to signal a turn.
We need a whole new model of policing that requires officers to avoid escalation out of proportion to the underlying situation. The vast majority of encounters with police are over little stuff, from traffic violations, to pot-smoking, to selling loose cigarettes, to walking in the middle of the street. We need to find a way to deal with the little stuff without violence.
politicsbyeccehomo.wordpress.com
72
Ecce Homo, you nailed it. It couldn't have been said any better. This obsession with getting total and immediate control of every situation, including the trivial ones, makes the police excessively aggressive and rude towards civilians, even those minding their own business. It is rooted in human nature, much more so in the American culture, not to take unprovoked rude behavior - even that from a police officer - lying down. The instinct is to say f off and not obey, which immediately escalates the situation. The aggressive and rude attitude seeds immediate resentment in the public. Unless it gets ingrained in the police training that they have to restrain their aggression and attitude towards civilians, they will continue to act like immature brats.
3
The fact is that given the amount of armed confrontations, US police are remarkably restrained. In New York City, for example, thousands of arrests for firearms are effected resulting in about 10 fatal shootings a year.
The dream of an unarmed police force seems even more distant with the current fear of armed terrorists killing as many people as quickly as possible. In fact, the hostage negotiation technique, developed by the NYPD, are giving way to "active shooter" training, where armed shooters are confronted and "taken out" as soon as possible.
The dream of an unarmed police force seems even more distant with the current fear of armed terrorists killing as many people as quickly as possible. In fact, the hostage negotiation technique, developed by the NYPD, are giving way to "active shooter" training, where armed shooters are confronted and "taken out" as soon as possible.
14
A very interesting article. Certainly American law enforcement can learn some things from such a model, but it is naive to believe that they can simply adapt such a style of policing in this country wholesale for our cultural attitudes and laws are much different. Policing in America evolved as it did not because the criminal class responded to police with guns so much as the other way round. Criminals in our country are more violent with each other and innocents as well as the police. Further, there is a difference in public attitude, rightly or wrongly - while law and policy recognizes the need to protect the well being of a suspect, at the same time they are secondary to the protection of third parties, including the officers.
Another area not touched on was that of the significant differences in civil liability and our sadly appalling litigious nature. Many public policies arose here in order to address that reality, thus you see police commanders worried about the "what if" game and what will happen if the police just back down from certain situations.
Despite some of the rhetoric and awful cases, most police here are not thuggish killers, and they are legally and morally entitled to protect themselves as well as the public. Yes, some things need to improve, but one must be realistic in what we can expect by only having one piece of the puzzle change (the cops) while ignoring the larger societal issues.
Another area not touched on was that of the significant differences in civil liability and our sadly appalling litigious nature. Many public policies arose here in order to address that reality, thus you see police commanders worried about the "what if" game and what will happen if the police just back down from certain situations.
Despite some of the rhetoric and awful cases, most police here are not thuggish killers, and they are legally and morally entitled to protect themselves as well as the public. Yes, some things need to improve, but one must be realistic in what we can expect by only having one piece of the puzzle change (the cops) while ignoring the larger societal issues.
13
The article barely brushes up against the root of the problem in the US: police violence is embedded in and continues our violent history of the enslavement of Black people and genocide against Indigenous Americans. There will be no resolution without meaningful reparations and truth & justice commissions.
5
You have to be kidding. The culture of violence in the police (the government enforcement arm) has more to do with big government and the left is ensuring that the government will become even more oppressive and violent.
1
This article is a reminder that a lot of what we see as regressive attitudes towards things in the United States might actually be a product of honest ignorance, born of our tendency to be relatively provincial and unaware of policy implementation in other places.
My French, British, German, Italian, etc. friends are fairly astounded at how little we look at what other countries are doing in designing public policy. "What the British, Germans, Scandinavians are doing is always a huge part of our political debates--but in US media, people seem to be surprised that Bernie Sanders talks so much about other countries?" a French friend once remarked to me, somewhat incredulously.
The more we look outward, the better off we are likely to be, and this article is a good example of that.
My French, British, German, Italian, etc. friends are fairly astounded at how little we look at what other countries are doing in designing public policy. "What the British, Germans, Scandinavians are doing is always a huge part of our political debates--but in US media, people seem to be surprised that Bernie Sanders talks so much about other countries?" a French friend once remarked to me, somewhat incredulously.
The more we look outward, the better off we are likely to be, and this article is a good example of that.
208
Well Gee since they don't live here they really don't know. How about using say China as an example? The more we look inward for effective methods that work in the US the better we will be, the more we ignore outside countries the better we are.
You nailed it. Policing is one of a multitude of policy ideas that could be imported from other countries.
I moved here from Australia eight years ago, and often have people ask me about life there, commonly asking something along the lines of So, Australia is about 10-15 years behind us then?
Many people are often openly insulted when I reply I dont think thats the case at all, that by any metric such as literacy and numeracy, infrastructure, social justice, healthcare, etc the US ranks well below most advanced countries. They never considered themselves rude by assuming my country wassome how inferior.
I guess that is a result of several generations of American having had the myth of American exceptionalism rammed down their throats. I dont recall where I heard it, but the quote: We learned how to teach but forgot how to learn ...seems very apt.
I moved here from Australia eight years ago, and often have people ask me about life there, commonly asking something along the lines of So, Australia is about 10-15 years behind us then?
Many people are often openly insulted when I reply I dont think thats the case at all, that by any metric such as literacy and numeracy, infrastructure, social justice, healthcare, etc the US ranks well below most advanced countries. They never considered themselves rude by assuming my country wassome how inferior.
I guess that is a result of several generations of American having had the myth of American exceptionalism rammed down their throats. I dont recall where I heard it, but the quote: We learned how to teach but forgot how to learn ...seems very apt.
3
Good point!
But if you look at the utterances of many politicians (especially on the right) about France, Germany, Canada, and various other highly-developed nations, I'd say that, in many cases, it's WILLFUL ignorance, not "honest ignorance."
But if you look at the utterances of many politicians (especially on the right) about France, Germany, Canada, and various other highly-developed nations, I'd say that, in many cases, it's WILLFUL ignorance, not "honest ignorance."
1
A lot of comments here say "can't be done, to many guns here". I agree, police just can't leave the firearms and talk nicely. To many will die before the culture here has a chance to change. But, they can carry a gun and use that tactics that allow Scittish police to not need a gun. When the training and mindset change for officers not to pull the gun as a first response, we see an end to many off the killings we see today.
21
Criminal culture is not changing, it might be eliminated with very sever actions, but those might be illegal.
1
a great idea but with so many criminals carrying weapons in this insane america to have the police without weapons would be tantamount to suicide! welcome to the wild american west...
12
Police here in New York are taught to shoot to kill, to protect themselves at all costs. While about 50 police officers will be murdered across the US this year, about 1100 civilians will be killed by the police, and more than 20%, over 200 of them will be completely unarmed. To say nothing of those armed with kitchen knives or whatever who are gunned down by police officers trained to shoot to kill to protect themselves at all costs. And the justification we hear is, they put themselves in harm's way, in a very dangerous job, to protect us. Never mind the fact that it isn't even a top 10 dangerous job, what does it mean to put oneself in harm's way if one responds to the potential of harm by killing, even the unarmed? And does the "us" they are protecting exclude those of us who are mentally ill? I'm sick of the false narrative trumpeted by PD's and PBA's all over this country.
47
" I'm sick of the false narrative trumpeted by PD's and PBA's all over this country."
Port Washington is very pretty. Come to Brooklyn, live in a high-crime area for some years, be kept up for months nights on end by loud drugged-up crowds, hear gun shots once every week or so, listen as police helicopters swoop all over your neighborhood, hear about little kids getting caught in drug dealers' crossfire, and then tell me that the cops don't have a hard job. And obviously a thankless one.
Port Washington is very pretty. Come to Brooklyn, live in a high-crime area for some years, be kept up for months nights on end by loud drugged-up crowds, hear gun shots once every week or so, listen as police helicopters swoop all over your neighborhood, hear about little kids getting caught in drug dealers' crossfire, and then tell me that the cops don't have a hard job. And obviously a thankless one.
12
Good observations regarding the data. But what is the right "balance" in a violent society. You identified perhaps the main issue: these police really don't want to put themselves in "harm's way" (there is always the PR narrative, and there is sometimes the truth, which are not always the same) that would be the logical reason why they shoot first. But in reality, who would(put themselves in harms way, that is)? It is highly likely that if the police are forced to pipedown and shoot less, you maybe get 100 less civilians killed, and the trade of is instead of 50 officerskilled you get 53 or 55 killed, what is happening is that the police (the guys who have the law and gun on their side) are trading more of the civilian's lives (and generally a lot of minority, poor, marginal or people who are generally less powerful) off for less of their own. That is what is happening when you take a step back and look at the full picture. But the problem is created by the society around them, in this telling, the police are just behaving the way normal human beings would (never mind the PR, which isn't real).
Tom in plain language you are full of baloney! NYC police are taught to shoot to STOP. Not Kill as you have falsely stated. In addition well over 100 police officers already have been killed this year in this country, so either you are very ill informed or you are just one of the many anti-police bigots who spread lies intentionally. I personally think you are both ignorant and a bigot.
5
Guardians, not Warriors.
14
Scotland does not have our racial problems.
33
VERY true. So many incorrectly assume it is the guns in this country that are the cause of our relatively high crime rate when it is more closely correlated with demographics.
5
You are right in that it does not look as though their policemen are as riddled by fear and racial insecurity as ours often seem to be.
2
They have minorities who taunt the Scots and the police by declaring anyone who questions any of their actions a racist - something that gets you thrown in jail over there - so the minorities get away with anything because the Scots are afraid to speak up.
1
The Scottish approach couldn't be implanted here overnight but sensible gun Laws and reigning in the arms industry would be a good start as would preventing Police Forces from buying Army surplus stuff that turn Police officers from protectors into assault commandos.
9
The Public should stop criticizing our police forces until those doing the criticizing have been a police officer for some amount of time. When I was doing my 20+in the military, I did not recognize the very same situation....but it is quite similar. As are many other occupations.
The US Justice Department, much like sister agencies, should award research grants for the development of non-lethal, perhaps even non-injurious, weapons.
Tasers and rubber bullets kill or maul. The shoulder to shoulder policemen protected from head to foot just incite violence from the hidden back of the crowd.
Weapons that I would consider are: Septic-smelling fluid, easily washed off back home in the shower. Spider Man type webs which could be broadcast over demonstrators/rioters.
Tasers and rubber bullets kill or maul. The shoulder to shoulder policemen protected from head to foot just incite violence from the hidden back of the crowd.
Weapons that I would consider are: Septic-smelling fluid, easily washed off back home in the shower. Spider Man type webs which could be broadcast over demonstrators/rioters.
2
The equation the suggests that more guns equal more security is tragically flawed. The UK is just one example of nations and cultures which manage to
maintain a high level of safety and protection without resorting to "gun culture" tactics.
The American solution of more guns yield greater security from any form of attack; terror, domestic gang etc. has NOT played out in reality.
At one of the recent mass shooting events, at least one person said to be an
off duty enforcement type said he did NOT draw his gun for fear of being targeted as a perpetrator! There is a notion that arming selected (by what means?) school personnel would dramatically reduce the number of fatalities and injuries in school shootings. I question how many true heroes there are among school teachers. This is not a criticism, just a reality check. How many
would enter into a classroom while a shooting was in progress. Is there any reason to assume that this delegated person could even get to the scene quickly enough to be effective?
I will not pose as a statistician, but it is my understanding that there is currently in excess of one gun for EVERY US CITIZEN in America. If this is even close to accurate, pure logic and reason would indicate that guns do
not solve or even help to protect and prevent violent actions among law enforcement or ordinary people.
Our culture has gone astray. Let's at least consider how others manage this problem
maintain a high level of safety and protection without resorting to "gun culture" tactics.
The American solution of more guns yield greater security from any form of attack; terror, domestic gang etc. has NOT played out in reality.
At one of the recent mass shooting events, at least one person said to be an
off duty enforcement type said he did NOT draw his gun for fear of being targeted as a perpetrator! There is a notion that arming selected (by what means?) school personnel would dramatically reduce the number of fatalities and injuries in school shootings. I question how many true heroes there are among school teachers. This is not a criticism, just a reality check. How many
would enter into a classroom while a shooting was in progress. Is there any reason to assume that this delegated person could even get to the scene quickly enough to be effective?
I will not pose as a statistician, but it is my understanding that there is currently in excess of one gun for EVERY US CITIZEN in America. If this is even close to accurate, pure logic and reason would indicate that guns do
not solve or even help to protect and prevent violent actions among law enforcement or ordinary people.
Our culture has gone astray. Let's at least consider how others manage this problem
5
There's no doubt that public attitudes toward the police in American cities would be greatly improved if they were seen to be taking all reasonable steps to de-escalate confrontations and take offenders into custody without shots being fired. Can deadly force always be avoided? Of course not. It's far too soon to talk about disarming the majority of police officers in a country that is, as the article says, awash with guns.
If we could take the majority of guns out of the hands of criminals, then maybe it wouldn't be necessary for the police to make a show of, much less regular use of, deadly force. How many perfectly law-abiding people are still intimidated by the mere presence of a very deadly-looking firearm on every policeman's belt?
Much of the difference between American and British attitudes toward the police can be seen in how they're portrayed on television. In America, TV cops are generally heroes who solve problems with fists and guns, and rarely kill anyone who isn't a villain; although in a few programs there are corrupt police who are easily dispatched by heroes and villains alike. Guns still rule, but in our imaginations they always hit the bad guys.
On British television, police are members of the community they serve. They're not tough-as-nails enforcers whose job is to give people "what they deserve", either with a beating or the barrel of a gun. We should aspire to such a relationship with our police, but getting there will take a lot of work.
If we could take the majority of guns out of the hands of criminals, then maybe it wouldn't be necessary for the police to make a show of, much less regular use of, deadly force. How many perfectly law-abiding people are still intimidated by the mere presence of a very deadly-looking firearm on every policeman's belt?
Much of the difference between American and British attitudes toward the police can be seen in how they're portrayed on television. In America, TV cops are generally heroes who solve problems with fists and guns, and rarely kill anyone who isn't a villain; although in a few programs there are corrupt police who are easily dispatched by heroes and villains alike. Guns still rule, but in our imaginations they always hit the bad guys.
On British television, police are members of the community they serve. They're not tough-as-nails enforcers whose job is to give people "what they deserve", either with a beating or the barrel of a gun. We should aspire to such a relationship with our police, but getting there will take a lot of work.
3
I'm surprised to learn that American police departments are actually beginning to admit that our way of dealing with crime and law enforcement might actually not be the best on earth. Of course it should come as no surprise to any thinking person that our system of law enforcement is hopelessly broken and that relations between police and the public they are supposed to serve are confrontational at best. Still, the problems go far deeper than that. As the number of "haves" continues to grow while the "have nots" continue to be left behind and as the limitless proliferation of guns into our society accelerates, crime will forever be a part of the fabric of America. Those are specifically American problems that won't find any answers in the Scottish highlands. The ballot box maybe....
4
The main points of difference between the philosophies and practices of Scotland and US police departments are 1) police in Scotland live in the community they police and feel responsible for maintaining peace in their neighborhood 2) police in Scotland don't seem to want to assert their machoness when dealing with suspects, do not feel ashamed of backing off, do not want to win every confrontation.
All of these though perfectly sensible will be hard to replicate in US where police do not see themselves as protectors but rather as enforcers coming to a hostile neighborhood. Of course the race relations exacerbate this attitude.
All of these though perfectly sensible will be hard to replicate in US where police do not see themselves as protectors but rather as enforcers coming to a hostile neighborhood. Of course the race relations exacerbate this attitude.
7
This is the first news article I've read this month after which I found myself breathing more deeply, rather than less. Great thanks to all the people at the conference; may you inspire your communities with peace, courage and innovation.
6
Interesting piece. One bit of research for the visiting US officials if they can get it would be the psychological profiles of the men and women who sign up for Scotland's police. It would be fascinating to compare those profiles with the profiles of the men and women who sign up for the police in the US. Evidently, "listen, speak courteously and explain every action" isn't exactly what a lot of the US police who have been in trouble lately seem to think they signed up for. I'll take a guy or gal who signs on for "guardians of the community" over someone who yearns to find their identity in a us versus them "warrior subculture" every time. One more thing, there is something more than a little heroic in being blasé about "taking a few punches" to preserve life and I'm sure that kind of courage does not go unnoticed or unappreciated in the community being policed.
13
Here in the USA, everybody knows a jerk from high school who is now a police officer in the same town they grew up in.
4
And a lot of non-jerks as well. Good place to get a job, though not a safe job.........
1
"take a step back and talk to people". "listen, speak courteously and explain". "tactical withdrawal is not a sign of cowardice". "be concerned with fairness, be a guardian of the community, rather than a warrior from a police subculture".
"pay as much attention to moral standards as legal ones". "success is when everyone in an encounter survives".
Yes it seems we have much to learn in the way our police operate.
Of course the basic Scottish approach and philosophy won't work in every encounter here (or there for that matter), but it could become part of our basic approach in far more police interactions.
I've spoken with polite and courteous police in the city, and some who are aggressive, arrogant jerks with a serious ego problem. Everyone on the force that works with the bozos knows who they are, yet they protect their own. That has to change too.
Yes, it is a dangerous job and they know that going in. And one set of rules for conduct will never work in all situations, but you need that morally correct approach, adjusted for hard realities as required.
It's time for police to begin the hard job of changing their own culture, most Americans will respond in kind. Some criminals won't of course, and they have to be dealt with appropriately, but we can make the morally fair approach our basic mode no matter what.
As far as officers not carrying guns, that will probably take longer, but we can try to move in that direction. The public will have to give up theirs, too.
"pay as much attention to moral standards as legal ones". "success is when everyone in an encounter survives".
Yes it seems we have much to learn in the way our police operate.
Of course the basic Scottish approach and philosophy won't work in every encounter here (or there for that matter), but it could become part of our basic approach in far more police interactions.
I've spoken with polite and courteous police in the city, and some who are aggressive, arrogant jerks with a serious ego problem. Everyone on the force that works with the bozos knows who they are, yet they protect their own. That has to change too.
Yes, it is a dangerous job and they know that going in. And one set of rules for conduct will never work in all situations, but you need that morally correct approach, adjusted for hard realities as required.
It's time for police to begin the hard job of changing their own culture, most Americans will respond in kind. Some criminals won't of course, and they have to be dealt with appropriately, but we can make the morally fair approach our basic mode no matter what.
As far as officers not carrying guns, that will probably take longer, but we can try to move in that direction. The public will have to give up theirs, too.
8
I've yet to meet a police officer that isn't a jerk; I mean its expected in the NY area, but even the Vermont State Trooper I was in a wedding with last year didn't know how to turn it off.
6
It is pretty clear that most US police officials are clueless. Unfortunately, that cluelessness, alongside their firmly held belief that violence is the only solution to any problem, arises from the very nature of our culture, in which violence is a pervading theme. (Sports, movies, militarism, our penchant for declaring war on drugs, cancer, terrorism, and so forth.)
The provincial addiction to violence is also encouraged by the lamentable attitude on the part of the vast majority of Americans that we have nothing to learn from the rest of the world, an attitude that is reinforced by our lack of direct exposure to foreign cultures through travel, aggravated by the inability to speak foreign languages.
I'm fortunate in being able to spend an appreciable amount of time abroad, and have made the effort to learn the languages of my host countries. For me there is no comparison between encounters with police abroad and here, even when I've been a very bad boy on the A8.
The provincial addiction to violence is also encouraged by the lamentable attitude on the part of the vast majority of Americans that we have nothing to learn from the rest of the world, an attitude that is reinforced by our lack of direct exposure to foreign cultures through travel, aggravated by the inability to speak foreign languages.
I'm fortunate in being able to spend an appreciable amount of time abroad, and have made the effort to learn the languages of my host countries. For me there is no comparison between encounters with police abroad and here, even when I've been a very bad boy on the A8.
4
I am sure that if more Scottish criminals had access to assault rifles like the AR platform, police tactics in Scotland would be very different. If you disarm U.S. police without a way to protect themselves from armed criminals such as Farook and Malik, or PCP crazed knife welding criminals like Laquan McDonald, most law enforcement officers would turn in their badges and there would be anarchy.
5
Scotland has more than its fair share of drugged up knife wielding criminals. In fact Glasgow is the knife crime capital of Europe. But you don't have to use deadly force to disarm and arrest someone with a knife. Something that Police in Scotland do on a daily basis.
2
And where do many of our U.S. cities police forces go to learn their militaristic policing techniques? To Israel, which field tests its innovative techniques on Palestinians, through its on-going brutal occupation. See: https://electronicintifada.net/blogs/rania-khalek/st-louis-police-bought....
" Under the cover of “counterterrorism training,” senior commanders from nearly every major US police agency, including departments in Baltimore and St. Louis, have received training from Israel’s occupation regime on junkets that allow Israeli companies like Odortec to market their products directly to US law enforcement executives. "
This is a welcome development which is quoted in your NYT article: "it’s community-based policing by unarmed officers,” Constable Higgins said. “We police from an absolute position of embracing democracy," instead of the oppressive, jack-booted policing of occupation by "the only democracy in the Middle East."
" Under the cover of “counterterrorism training,” senior commanders from nearly every major US police agency, including departments in Baltimore and St. Louis, have received training from Israel’s occupation regime on junkets that allow Israeli companies like Odortec to market their products directly to US law enforcement executives. "
This is a welcome development which is quoted in your NYT article: "it’s community-based policing by unarmed officers,” Constable Higgins said. “We police from an absolute position of embracing democracy," instead of the oppressive, jack-booted policing of occupation by "the only democracy in the Middle East."
9
The US police cannot be trained. They love to kill; that is the issue.
5
Rudolf, your statement is ridiculously hyperbolic. As many police officers as we have in this country, if they loved to kill, we'd all be dead.
3
Wow, so all it took for the police to finally decide to consider less violent ways of maintaining the peace was to be caught on camera multiple times murdering unarmed people. Who knew that charging several officers in several cities with murder would make them hesitate in their use of force?
By George, the buggers may be capable of learning after all. Now, take away their military gear. It has no place in civil society. It certainly has no place in a democracy - even one that it on its last legs.
By George, the buggers may be capable of learning after all. Now, take away their military gear. It has no place in civil society. It certainly has no place in a democracy - even one that it on its last legs.
7
American policing techniques do not respect human life. Instead, it rests on empty words like "stand your ground" and "feel threatened." American law appears to give the police a virtual license to kill anyone on a mere whim and justify it later by saying that the officer "felt threatened" - a truly frightening situation. One would have to sympathize with the police that operate in a society awash with guns. But the prevailing police culture of "shoot at will" is too extreme - it has resulted in countless innocent lives being taken by incompetent, overly aggressive, mentally unbalanced and "macho" officers with no consequences.
6
Now, after reading Al Baker's report, all I can think about is moving to Scotland and getting out of the US. I'm really tired of reading, "Yet another shooting..." and Donald Trump isn't even funny, anymore.
20
I'd much rather take my chances here. Freedom is not free and it does not exist outside of the reality of taking risks.
Come on over! The whole of the UK is open to you. Politeness, patience, heritage, beautiful scenery, multi-cuturalism and NO GUNS! What is there not to like.
They wouldn't last a New York second in the USA.
End the madness. Repeal the Second Amendment.
End the madness. Repeal the Second Amendment.
19
And then the first and the fourth while you're at it!
Thanks for your remarkable insights, gjdagis. They are very helpful.
Thank you br; I'm glad to see that you see the pattern.
It'll be a long time, probably never, before police officers in the US can leave their guns in their patrol cars. Seeing that we're taking a first step in the direction of trying to descalate situations instead of ending them quickly and fatally gives me hope. To quote a friend 'a fish rots from the head', if police are less quick to use deadly force maybe we'll see less of it in confrontations when the suspect has a gun.
3
It may be true that there are more guns in America, but let's not forget some facts here: Laquan McDonald was carrying a knife, not a gun. Michael Brown was unarmed. Eric Garner was unarmed. Trayvon Martin, Tamir Rice - all unarmed. I could keep going but I wouldn't even finish listing names before exceeding the character limit for comments here. In all of these situations, police escalated the situation with violence and took a life for no reason. Don't tell me it can't work here because of the guns. Let me repeat: There were NO guns in any of these cases except for those in the hands of the police.
The article was quite hopeful at points, but to me the final quotation is even more telling than Terry Shortell intended it to be. If she goes back home to implement these changes, they're going to wonder what happened to "Terry Shortell." And there it is: a culture where police officers value not looking "soft" in front of their peers over everything else.
The article was quite hopeful at points, but to me the final quotation is even more telling than Terry Shortell intended it to be. If she goes back home to implement these changes, they're going to wonder what happened to "Terry Shortell." And there it is: a culture where police officers value not looking "soft" in front of their peers over everything else.
48
For every unarmed black man shot by the cops, there are many more with guns who terrorize our streets, murder similar types and others, and don't get shot or even apprehended. Sorry, Boston.
All of our fellow citizens who are big gun enthusiast should read this article.. GUNS are not a solution to the increased violence in our communities. On the other hand taking away guns would be a great solution.
19
It would sure make the criminals' lives a lot easier if anything!
1
I was born in the UK, and for every single American child at Christmas time this year I would wish the joy and -- yep -- the freedom of growing up in a society like Scotland.
69
Our national myth is the lone cowboy single-handedly wiping out desperadoes. We are a gun culture because once, upon a time, settlers shot native Indians and wild animals to create their farmsteads and ranches.
We've outgrown that myth, but you can't take it out of some people's heads.
When you add to that fury over losing the Civil War and realize that much of our West was settled by resentful Southerners, particularly South Carolinians, it's a lethal brew.
Then there are our inner cities, whose welfare policies have contributed, for three generations. to teenagers producing babies that grow up to be, essentially, feral. Not taught self-control, let alone manners, not spoken to let alone sung to, uninterested in learning, and living on an animal level: American blacks were not like this before the 1970s. Downtrodden and discriminated against they may have been, but degenerate and criminal -- no. Our black working and middle classes (not to mention our black top crust) suffer from association with these products of a 50-year-old misguided welfare policy.
And frankly, we have no decently middle-of-the-road politicians to keep both elements in check. Instead, we have panderers on both sides. And the rest of us are drowning in a sea of incapacity, feckless opportunism, and self-glorification.
Not to mention gun violence.
Sharpton and Trump: our perfect enablers.
We've outgrown that myth, but you can't take it out of some people's heads.
When you add to that fury over losing the Civil War and realize that much of our West was settled by resentful Southerners, particularly South Carolinians, it's a lethal brew.
Then there are our inner cities, whose welfare policies have contributed, for three generations. to teenagers producing babies that grow up to be, essentially, feral. Not taught self-control, let alone manners, not spoken to let alone sung to, uninterested in learning, and living on an animal level: American blacks were not like this before the 1970s. Downtrodden and discriminated against they may have been, but degenerate and criminal -- no. Our black working and middle classes (not to mention our black top crust) suffer from association with these products of a 50-year-old misguided welfare policy.
And frankly, we have no decently middle-of-the-road politicians to keep both elements in check. Instead, we have panderers on both sides. And the rest of us are drowning in a sea of incapacity, feckless opportunism, and self-glorification.
Not to mention gun violence.
Sharpton and Trump: our perfect enablers.
28
Those living in our inner cities are not degenerate criminals.
They are not feral animals.
They are human beings who, because of the views you purport, and which are shared by many in this country, are subject to tremendous discrimination and violence. I hope you are not a police officer.
They are not feral animals.
They are human beings who, because of the views you purport, and which are shared by many in this country, are subject to tremendous discrimination and violence. I hope you are not a police officer.
It probably would have been more useful for the US police officials to go to London instead and see how the Metropolitan Police deal with difficult situations. London is more akin to large US cities then the likes of Glasgow and Edinburgh, in terms of diversity, violence and inequalities.
67
London would be the most peaceful big city in the US. The violence is nowhere near as comparable.
4
I was born Glaswegian. Glasgow is racially diverse (large South Asian population), heavily ghettoized, with huge economic inequalities - just like Philadelphia where I live. The American police officials would have realized they had a lot in common with the Glasgow police they talked to.
2
Just watched the London police in action earlier this week. A man slashed another in what was officially called a "terrorist" act. He slashed the man while screaming about the treatment of Muslims in the U.K. I was astonished to see a grand total of 4 officers take the man down with 1 taser shot. They handcuffed him and the incident was over.
The very next piece showed the Chicago incident. No one stabbed, but 16 shots pumped into the "perp." I sat stunned thinking of the differences in accepted policing practices I had just witnessed.
The very next piece showed the Chicago incident. No one stabbed, but 16 shots pumped into the "perp." I sat stunned thinking of the differences in accepted policing practices I had just witnessed.
3
An excellent article but omits the fact that it took the Scots a long time to learn how to deal with their often violent population. Highland Scotland and industrial Glasgow were, in their time, extremely violent places. Today, unlike the USA, the Scots accept highly controlled violence but only by the state whereas the US accepts that violence has often to be determined by the individual citizen or policeman The Revolution is worshiped in the USA and the very idea that Government can be resisted by force is accepted. Most Scots believe in reform not revolution whereas some Americans actually believe that Revolution might still be necessary against a future government. The" right to bear arms' is only part of the problem in a country that believes it was necessary to use force to start the country and continues to celebrate the use of that force. The Scots were often extremely violent and are still excellent soldiers, but as said, they believe in controlling not glorifying violence. Consequently, policing is difficult but not impossible in the way it often is in the USA.
93
Americans cannot go to a demonstration anymore and you think they're up for a revolution? Americans are intoxicated and numb with TV and consumption and with their violent gun toys. The memory of the Revolution is just a myth or like a TV series. There is a culture of violence and guns in this country and its cause is not the idea of American Revolution or the possibility of another one. That may be a sublimation and justification but not the psychological reason. .
1
But... isn't it also true that almost 100% of the criminals in Scotland do not carry guns either?
3
Um, and why is that? Could it be effective government regulations concerning a dangerous substance?
7
Congratulations to the US police officials for this, for two big reasons. The first and obvious: it is a step in the right direction to reduce violence between police and public. Second, because with this gesture the US police officials involved in this initiative show something that is almost never seen in US officialdom: a willingness to learn something from Europe. For some forty years now I have had one foot firmly planted on American soil and one in Europe. There is a lot more that the US can learn there to benefit us all here. Again, congratulations.
50
Whoa! One more reason to love Scotland! (Planning our fourth trip there next year. Hiking the West Highland Way has long been on our bucket list). Glad someone recognized that there is another way to police.
4
How refreshing to hear the Scots talk about 'regard for democracy'. What's happened in US is a military-look to our police-both in garb and attitude. That leads to a dehumanized outlook on others. The anger of our population today is not very different to that of peoples who have endured our military occupying there neighborhoods. Americans are reacting to this brute force and the problem has grown with media coverage.
My Dad was a beat cop in NYC for over twenty years and never had to use his weapon. He walked among his neighbors and talked to everyone. We had what the Scots have, but lost it due to an us vs. them mentality. Time to dress down police and allow them to mingle among everyone. This culture of 'might' needs to change because folks resist and fight back.
Remember David against that Big Guy? Who won!
My Dad was a beat cop in NYC for over twenty years and never had to use his weapon. He walked among his neighbors and talked to everyone. We had what the Scots have, but lost it due to an us vs. them mentality. Time to dress down police and allow them to mingle among everyone. This culture of 'might' needs to change because folks resist and fight back.
Remember David against that Big Guy? Who won!
12
The elephant in the room with any comparison between US and other countries vis a vis law enforcement is firearms per capita. I don't know those figures for Scotland, but its well above 1 weapon per US resident; I see 300million total guns bandied about often. With that in mind, any idea of reducing US law enforcement armaments is a non-starter, of course.
The timing of this story IMO is curious considering the massacre in San Bernardino. You can posit any argument you want for or against gun control, but the fact is, that cat is out of the bag now. The guns are out there circulating.
Do we need better training on non-violent tactics for policemen? That's a resounding YES. But, let's understand the worst case these officers might face and also understand they must be equipped to deal with it. San Bernardino could've been orders of magnitude worse without quick & forceful police response.
Would not encourage my children to become LE nowadays. No win situation. Be kinder & gentler to the criminals, but have 1 hand on your holster for when they break out assault rifles.
The timing of this story IMO is curious considering the massacre in San Bernardino. You can posit any argument you want for or against gun control, but the fact is, that cat is out of the bag now. The guns are out there circulating.
Do we need better training on non-violent tactics for policemen? That's a resounding YES. But, let's understand the worst case these officers might face and also understand they must be equipped to deal with it. San Bernardino could've been orders of magnitude worse without quick & forceful police response.
Would not encourage my children to become LE nowadays. No win situation. Be kinder & gentler to the criminals, but have 1 hand on your holster for when they break out assault rifles.
3
I liked what I read, but...in the US, it is impossible to bring a knife to a gun fight and win. Social order in Scotland has a long way to go before it even approaches the problems created, and encountered by the gun-wielding masses of the US.
6
Sure, the talk psychology of community policing is really important. Admittedly, the Scottish approach would indeed save some lives in the United States if it became a mainstay of U.S. police training. But many everyday citizens not to mention criminals carry guns in the United States. You can't get around that deeply disturbing fact no matter how many notes are taken.
6
There's a sense of pride here I can't quite explain and yet I don't imagine visitscotland.com advertising this particular accolade we bestow on our fellow man. Oye big-yin, calm down, ya nae ken yer loosing the plot big time?
4
I am as appalled as anyone by the recent shootings by cops, but feel sorry for the position they are in. There have to be better ways to deal with an intransigent person, whether a stubborn high school student, a drunk, the mentally ill or just a frightened person with outstanding warrants. Have often wondered how the British do it with their simple billy clubs. Let's hope we can learn from them and back off these militarized video game inspired shoot outs.
3
The primary problem with police departments in the United States is that they have embraced the growing culture of violence in our nation, rather than taking a stand against it. Instead of being being part of the solution they invariably help drive the problem.
American police officers routinely escalate violence rather than defuse confrontation. In situation after situation we have ample evidence that officers often make volatile situations worse by taking an "apply overwhelming force" approach to dealing with civilians - even in minor, relatively nonthreatening situations.
Instead of employing negotiation and talking tactics that should be trainable skills, the attitude of a typical American police officer is more along the lines of "I have a badge and a gun and you will do what I say because I have all the power."
Too many American police officers are in it for the thrill of the chase, or the excitement of apprehending a "bad guy," instead of knowing how to deescalate fraught encounters with the public. For example, I once knew a police officer who said, "If a suspect makes me chase him, he's getting a severe beating." That's the kind of attitude that's pervasive with officers in this country.
And the problem is only exacerbated by giving returning soldiers suffering from PTSD advantages in applying for police jobs. Former soldiers who are trained to routinely apply deadly force have been let loose on our communities.
We are paying for having created monsters in blue.
American police officers routinely escalate violence rather than defuse confrontation. In situation after situation we have ample evidence that officers often make volatile situations worse by taking an "apply overwhelming force" approach to dealing with civilians - even in minor, relatively nonthreatening situations.
Instead of employing negotiation and talking tactics that should be trainable skills, the attitude of a typical American police officer is more along the lines of "I have a badge and a gun and you will do what I say because I have all the power."
Too many American police officers are in it for the thrill of the chase, or the excitement of apprehending a "bad guy," instead of knowing how to deescalate fraught encounters with the public. For example, I once knew a police officer who said, "If a suspect makes me chase him, he's getting a severe beating." That's the kind of attitude that's pervasive with officers in this country.
And the problem is only exacerbated by giving returning soldiers suffering from PTSD advantages in applying for police jobs. Former soldiers who are trained to routinely apply deadly force have been let loose on our communities.
We are paying for having created monsters in blue.
175
Talk is cheap Mr. Randle. You live in a glass house and throw rocks. Perhaps you could show us how to police. Go ahead and suit up. Walk the walk and make a change.
You live in a violent city!!
You live in a violent city!!
A friend of mine from high school has countless tours, (at least 7) under his belt and in between he is a police officer. He goes back and forth from Afghanistan to his local small PD every few years.
I didn't say the job was easy. I said it's being done poorly. Let's stop making excuses for poor performance and start having higher expectations of law enforcement. One doesn't have to be on the streets as a police officer to appreciate the mess we have on our hands. Civilians (mayors, governors, presidents) oversee law enforcement and are tasked with ensuring police are conducting themselves properly.
First and foremost, we need to significantly improve screening of candidates. Just because someone has been in the military (as I have) and fought in combat doesn't necessarily make the person an ideal candidate to be a police officer. Knowing how to drive a tank or fly an F-15 doesn't mean you stand a better chance of being a successful police officer. Those skills have nothing to do with policing, and yet we give former soldiers an advantage for testing, which is just one indication of how wayward we have become when deciding who we trust with a badge and a gun and the ultimate power to decide life and death.
And finally, police departments desperately need better training and improved (closer) supervision. You can't give a gun to a 20-something kid just returning from Afghanistan minimal training and blithely hope that's going to turn out well. It's not a coincidence that so many police officers have a chip on their shoulder and treat civilians with disdain, or as if they are a necessary obstacle to be dealt with each day. The problem of disrespect by officers is rampant!
First and foremost, we need to significantly improve screening of candidates. Just because someone has been in the military (as I have) and fought in combat doesn't necessarily make the person an ideal candidate to be a police officer. Knowing how to drive a tank or fly an F-15 doesn't mean you stand a better chance of being a successful police officer. Those skills have nothing to do with policing, and yet we give former soldiers an advantage for testing, which is just one indication of how wayward we have become when deciding who we trust with a badge and a gun and the ultimate power to decide life and death.
And finally, police departments desperately need better training and improved (closer) supervision. You can't give a gun to a 20-something kid just returning from Afghanistan minimal training and blithely hope that's going to turn out well. It's not a coincidence that so many police officers have a chip on their shoulder and treat civilians with disdain, or as if they are a necessary obstacle to be dealt with each day. The problem of disrespect by officers is rampant!
3
There's a huge difference between being "guardians of the community" and "warriors from a policing subculture".
In Scotland, the police are members of the community they live in. In the US there's no way to know who your local Mr. Policeman is: He drives by in a car with tinted windows or he is wearing black Star Wars helmets, body armor, and who cares what he looks like anyways - keep your eye on his gun, stupid!
He's ominous, and he wants it that way. He's scary, and he wants it that way.
I don't read minds, but he's a bullyboy, just waiting for someone to look at him cross-eyed.
He's not "Mr. Policeman" from my "Dick and Jane" reader way back in the 50's.
Today, he is ALWAYS ex-military, weaponized, right-wing, and already trained in the massive fire-power he is expected to use. And, oh, does he believe in the Thin Blue Line!
And, sure, on the cultural side, I watch cop shows like every one else, but they are never American cop shows. They are "Inspector Lewis" or "Shetland", and, come to think of it, I can't tell you if Jimmy Perez even has a gun.
American cops left me long ago, maybe during Selma, for sure during Vietnam. Constable Higgins said, "We police from the absolute position of embracing democracy." But cops in the US are the weaponized segment of the hierarchy. I know which rung I occupy in their world. It's waaaayyy down there.
"... as police officers, we want fairness..."
No. I can't imagine an American cop saying that.
In Scotland, the police are members of the community they live in. In the US there's no way to know who your local Mr. Policeman is: He drives by in a car with tinted windows or he is wearing black Star Wars helmets, body armor, and who cares what he looks like anyways - keep your eye on his gun, stupid!
He's ominous, and he wants it that way. He's scary, and he wants it that way.
I don't read minds, but he's a bullyboy, just waiting for someone to look at him cross-eyed.
He's not "Mr. Policeman" from my "Dick and Jane" reader way back in the 50's.
Today, he is ALWAYS ex-military, weaponized, right-wing, and already trained in the massive fire-power he is expected to use. And, oh, does he believe in the Thin Blue Line!
And, sure, on the cultural side, I watch cop shows like every one else, but they are never American cop shows. They are "Inspector Lewis" or "Shetland", and, come to think of it, I can't tell you if Jimmy Perez even has a gun.
American cops left me long ago, maybe during Selma, for sure during Vietnam. Constable Higgins said, "We police from the absolute position of embracing democracy." But cops in the US are the weaponized segment of the hierarchy. I know which rung I occupy in their world. It's waaaayyy down there.
"... as police officers, we want fairness..."
No. I can't imagine an American cop saying that.
137
It would be great to take some lessons from the Scots. Unfortunately, in the U.S. we are awash in guns, which in itself creates more danger and the potential for violencer. We need to fundamentally change the gun culture we've created, but instead, it's getting worse. I had this discussion with my brother in law, who carries a handgun in his car. He's a responsible person, and I trust him to use good judgement. However, when a gun is introduced into any potentially volatile situation, it changes the dynamics, making the possibility of violence more imminent. We've developed a shoot first, ask questions later mentality.
51
There seems to be nothing in the article that addresses the background and attitudes of those joining the Scottish law enforcement agencies. Are we recruiting the wrong people?
82
At the heart of this is not only a difference in the police culture of the US compared to the UK it is culture in general. We have accepted the philosophy that situations can and should be solved using force often maximum force. That is where the idea of the good guy with a gun saving the day comes from.
A nation that believes in gun violence, commits gun violence and commits gun violence against police officers will have a police force that more readily commits gun violence. That part of our culture needs to be dealt with.
Police unions for some reason object to training that includes officers speaking professionally at all times in particular the part about explaining every action. This type of police style might have saved Michael Brown's life and Officer Wilson's career (if he wanted a career behaving this way)
I'm for it. We can still have a police force that can deal with San Bernadino type massacres, Britain does.
A nation that believes in gun violence, commits gun violence and commits gun violence against police officers will have a police force that more readily commits gun violence. That part of our culture needs to be dealt with.
Police unions for some reason object to training that includes officers speaking professionally at all times in particular the part about explaining every action. This type of police style might have saved Michael Brown's life and Officer Wilson's career (if he wanted a career behaving this way)
I'm for it. We can still have a police force that can deal with San Bernadino type massacres, Britain does.
38
You pick out a really good point about "officers speaking professionally at all times in particular the part about explaining every action." The tone of voice when the police explain their actions is crucial. Even though the possession and use of guns is the elephant in the room in the U.S., talk tactics go immeasurably far in reducing potentially escalating situations, and this perhaps constitutes most police interactions with the public at large.
3
I was a high school teacher. In that profession you learn that tone of voice, appropriate language and professional demeanor go a long way to deescalate difficult situations. Its easier to stop a problem at the beginning than at the end when tensions are out of control. Better yet to just avoid a problem. You can't deal with students parents yelling obscenities at them. Unfortunately in some police departments that is encouraged and condoned.
Effective communication works for both professions (all professions). If school staff had applied that in South Carolina we would not have seen a video of young lady being tossed across the classroom by a police officer.
Effective communication works for both professions (all professions). If school staff had applied that in South Carolina we would not have seen a video of young lady being tossed across the classroom by a police officer.
There must be many more things which we can do better than anybody else - making decisions and carrying them out is just one of our choices. Let us get on with it.
1
i think taking some lessons away from this will be helpful especially the way british police use the simple tool of talking to suspects in order to diffuse the situation.
the real issue unfortunately remains guns. in a country where anyone can buy an illegal weapon for a couple hundred bucks off the back of a van, you cannot expect police officers not to be concerned about being shot.
granted recent actions have painted police officers in a bad light, but lets all remember there are millions of officers in the US and you do not tar all of them with the same brush as a few bad apples (are you listening mr Trump?)
the real issue unfortunately remains guns. in a country where anyone can buy an illegal weapon for a couple hundred bucks off the back of a van, you cannot expect police officers not to be concerned about being shot.
granted recent actions have painted police officers in a bad light, but lets all remember there are millions of officers in the US and you do not tar all of them with the same brush as a few bad apples (are you listening mr Trump?)
4
It's too late to change the culture of law enforcement in the US. Police officers are no longer here to protect the citizens. The role of the police in the US is too bully the population. And as long as your fellow patrolman has the peer pressure where he has to lie during an investigation or be chastised by his peers, nothing will change.
17
Police in Scotland don't need guns because the population isn't armed to the teeth with them.
128
I remember many years ago I was in Moscow and had a picture of myself taken with a Russian cop. He had no gun, only a walkie talkie, the version of a cell phone prevalent in those days.
4
This is ridiculous. un armed cops on Chicago, Detroit or L A would be gunned down and slaughtered like cattle.
6
In the UK civilian ownership of firearms if rare. The have and enforce gun control. Possessing an illegal gun is a serious crime. If we disarmed our police there would be a lot of dead cops and a lot more daylight robberies. The UK is not the wild west and much of the US is.
5
One short sentence: Guns beget guns.
12
Ive been thinking what if cops didnt carry guns? Or at least not all of them. Why should off duty cops or corrections officers be allowed to carry? We complain that some of our youth dont value lives, but it seems like the cops think of themselves first rather than trying to deescalate. After all, remember that Eric Garner was choked for selling loose cigarettes. Seriously?
5
He was choked while resisting arrest. Still wrong. But don't inflate the story.
1
I'm afraid we are going the opposite direction here. It's not "what if cops didn't carry guns?" in the USA these days. It's "sure, we let any unstable idiot with delusions of grandeur carry around any gun they like in public - but what if they could also bring their guns into bars and schools?"
1
Eric Garner died because he was in poor health. That's why the police were not indicted. In any event - the reason even off duty police have guns is because this is the most violent first world nation on earth. Funny - but it seems you forget how many times off duty police in NYC foil crimes.
2
It may be cost effective to send a number of police to Scotland for training rather than pay for the aftermath of violent police behaviour. The lesson to be learned might be distilled into: What would Andy of Mayberry do?
We once met a police officer on the Isle of Harris who was unarmed, but required to wear a bullet proof vest. He complained of being overheated in the 'blistering' 70 degree F heat wave.
Having seen, and been the victim of police administered street justice, the "shoot first, ask questions later" mentality certainly doesn't engender admiration for those who are serving the public's best interest.
We once met a police officer on the Isle of Harris who was unarmed, but required to wear a bullet proof vest. He complained of being overheated in the 'blistering' 70 degree F heat wave.
Having seen, and been the victim of police administered street justice, the "shoot first, ask questions later" mentality certainly doesn't engender admiration for those who are serving the public's best interest.
3
It is about time.
2
A great picture of an alternative culture by Al Baker. Well, America exemplifies gun violence; it's an integral part of our culture. We have inner cities with murder rates of one per day along with rogue mass murderers that dominate the press. The news is dominated by murder stories in our cities.
After Hurricane Katrina hit New Orleans, in addition to its housing, Katrina eradicated the New Orleans ;murder rate. After people returned months later, the murder rate returned to one murder per day. Pick a city, New Orleans, Detroit, Chicago, Jersey City, Camden, Philadelphia, Baltimore, Oakland; they're all monuments to gun violence. Gun violence a cultural imperative in the U.S. Police have to carry guns.
Part of the problem is revealed by Mr. Moore's statement in the quote,
"Looking on, Michael R. Moore, a deputy chief of the Los Angeles Police Department, questioned how a man who demonstrated “a public threat” could be allowed to barricade himself. 'What if that building had 15 schoolkids in it?' he said."
Mr. Moore's solution leads to the elevation of gun violence. If the police use guns as a prevention of the violence of a suspect who has no gun, then suspects will obtain guns. His hypothetical 15 school children would have been shot. But what can we do?
Mr. Moore reflects the American solution. Sadly, we can't be Scotland; we can't reverse the cultural damage in this society. The U.S. is much too heterogeneous to achieve a less violent cultural norm.
After Hurricane Katrina hit New Orleans, in addition to its housing, Katrina eradicated the New Orleans ;murder rate. After people returned months later, the murder rate returned to one murder per day. Pick a city, New Orleans, Detroit, Chicago, Jersey City, Camden, Philadelphia, Baltimore, Oakland; they're all monuments to gun violence. Gun violence a cultural imperative in the U.S. Police have to carry guns.
Part of the problem is revealed by Mr. Moore's statement in the quote,
"Looking on, Michael R. Moore, a deputy chief of the Los Angeles Police Department, questioned how a man who demonstrated “a public threat” could be allowed to barricade himself. 'What if that building had 15 schoolkids in it?' he said."
Mr. Moore's solution leads to the elevation of gun violence. If the police use guns as a prevention of the violence of a suspect who has no gun, then suspects will obtain guns. His hypothetical 15 school children would have been shot. But what can we do?
Mr. Moore reflects the American solution. Sadly, we can't be Scotland; we can't reverse the cultural damage in this society. The U.S. is much too heterogeneous to achieve a less violent cultural norm.
15
Heterogeneity leads to a violent cultural norm? I don't follow that logic in the least.
What I do see is a respect for people that the police in the US do not have. US cops escalate, they threaten, they don't listen. Been there, done that, seen that. They have a how-dare-you attitude and a habit of falling back on lies when they do something out of line that is also out of sight.
I've seen exactly the same phenomenon with the TSA versus their counterparts in Europe. Rudeness, threats, and incivility versus respect and explanation.
What I do see is a respect for people that the police in the US do not have. US cops escalate, they threaten, they don't listen. Been there, done that, seen that. They have a how-dare-you attitude and a habit of falling back on lies when they do something out of line that is also out of sight.
I've seen exactly the same phenomenon with the TSA versus their counterparts in Europe. Rudeness, threats, and incivility versus respect and explanation.
7
The key comment and key difference "..constables live where they work and embrace their role as “guardians of the community,” not warriors from a policing subculture."
9
"We can't reverse the cultural damage to this society."
Sure we can. We got here bit by bit. We'll get out of it, bit by bit. Here's a few old ideas:
mandatory insurance on every weapon
gun registration
ammo i.d.
mandatory classes before ownership
buy-backs
mandatory locked triggers
etc.
All of that combined with $20,000 fines and/or mandatory jail time.
AND all of that combined with checking the NRA approval rate of all politicians and NOT voting for them.
I grew up in the Maine woods. Every one in my family owned/owns guns and got/gets their yearly deer, and I recognize that that has squat to do with gunning down school-children or having a "heterogeneous" society.
Frankly, this country has been stupid since the Texas Water Tower shooter and the assassination of JFK. If we had dealt with this then we would not have this problem now.
Stop wringing your hands and throwing them up in the air and get on with it.
Sure we can. We got here bit by bit. We'll get out of it, bit by bit. Here's a few old ideas:
mandatory insurance on every weapon
gun registration
ammo i.d.
mandatory classes before ownership
buy-backs
mandatory locked triggers
etc.
All of that combined with $20,000 fines and/or mandatory jail time.
AND all of that combined with checking the NRA approval rate of all politicians and NOT voting for them.
I grew up in the Maine woods. Every one in my family owned/owns guns and got/gets their yearly deer, and I recognize that that has squat to do with gunning down school-children or having a "heterogeneous" society.
Frankly, this country has been stupid since the Texas Water Tower shooter and the assassination of JFK. If we had dealt with this then we would not have this problem now.
Stop wringing your hands and throwing them up in the air and get on with it.
15