Recep Tayyip Erdogan is an evil in the middle of the civilized world which lives by the proper norms in international behavior. The world must be ready to witness some ugly developments in this part of the world, losers of course will be Turkey and its people. If a nation wants to profit from an international trade, its citizens should vote into power politicians with sense of responsibility and propriety. It is time politicians with the radical philosophy be shown door by those who have the power to do so. In India, thanks to the irresponsible statements and acts of the ruling party at the center, the vigilant voters gave a serious drubbing to it in the provincial elections. Mind you, these voters are seriously poor and most live on the fringe of the civilized world.
1
The reality is that if the West had allied itself with Assad when he clearly issued warnings about the terrorist threat looming in the east of Syria, and offered him support, rather than funding and supporting the so-called 'Syrian rebels', who were largely al-Qaeda affiliates sponsored by the Saudis, there's a very good likelihood that nothing this bad would have ensued. Unfortunately and oddly, everyone in the West is seemingly dancing to the Saudi's tune, which is narrow, fundamentalist, intolerant, anti-modern, anti-western and pretty much, anti-everything. Assad, a modern, western educated, almost secular leader, who encouraged progressive ideas for Syria that were always far ahead of any of the Arab states, is the villain? Something is very wrong with this picture, and the Kremlin sees it...the US doesn't.
1
One Russian pilot and a downed fighter jet caused Mr. Putin to rage against Turkey and his fellow authocrat Erdogan. Where was the outrage when 224 civilians in an airliner were blown off in midair? Putin wanted to assert Russian influence and prestige in the Middle East. It serves multiple purposes. One is to cloak his flayling economy with the mantle of national pride, another is to accumulate "bargaining chips" to negotiate with the West over the debacle in Ukraine. Can one think of Putin as being reckles enough to provoke an incident with a NATO member just to test the alliance's resolve? It is one thing to provide materiel and logistical support to Eastern Ukranian separatists in an ploy to annex Crimea, another to take off your shirt an call for a brawl with NATO while drunk with nationalist pride. The former was a calculated operation to regain strategic military access over a region of historical and sentimental value to Russia, the latter would be a reckless self-destructive miscalculation, even for Mr. Putin.
1
Turkey's hypocracy is breathtaking. They violate Greece's air space 50 times a day their NATO ally. They pretend they are our partners but turn a blind eye on oil trade from ISIS. They are strong supporters of the Muslem Brotherhood and provide no scrutiny of all the foreign fighters going to Syria through Turkey. With friends like Turkey who ....
7
There's talk about how Turkey buys oil from ISIS. Clearly someone is buying it.
If it turns out that Turkey is one such customer, it deserves to be on the receiving end of Iran-like sanctions.
If it turns out that Turkey is one such customer, it deserves to be on the receiving end of Iran-like sanctions.
8
Russia should pull out all the stops in punishing Turkey, not because this is a cause celebre on behalf of national honor, but because the Turkish provocation was deliberate, an attempt to ensure--with prior US-EU-NATO blessing-- that cooperation between Russia and the West would not take place. Erdogan had to have had prior approval for just such a contingency: counterterrorism vis-a-vis ISIS cannot be permitted to stand in the way of America's geopolitical priority: confrontation with Russia, as leading as well to confrontation with China.
The downing of the Russian jet, at first a symbolic act, takes on fuller practical meaning, Turkey's NATO membership legitimizing still further patterns of Western militance and encirclement of Russia. Russia must not backdown on its economic threat, particularly on oil and natural gas. Let the EU pay the penalty for a colder, more expensive winter, given its (a) servitude to US planning, and (b) its record of hostility and belligerence.
Meanwhile, ISIS will continue to gain ground, in part because the US actually finds its existence useful in justifying military bases, a vast military budget, and massive surveillance at home. Obama is a Cold Warrior out of the Bush-Cheney mold, sprinkling liberal rhetoric on a policy of death and destruction, as in drone assassination and regime change (for what else is the removal of Assad?). The Turkish attack is salutary in alerting Putin to Western intentions--if he didn't know already.
The downing of the Russian jet, at first a symbolic act, takes on fuller practical meaning, Turkey's NATO membership legitimizing still further patterns of Western militance and encirclement of Russia. Russia must not backdown on its economic threat, particularly on oil and natural gas. Let the EU pay the penalty for a colder, more expensive winter, given its (a) servitude to US planning, and (b) its record of hostility and belligerence.
Meanwhile, ISIS will continue to gain ground, in part because the US actually finds its existence useful in justifying military bases, a vast military budget, and massive surveillance at home. Obama is a Cold Warrior out of the Bush-Cheney mold, sprinkling liberal rhetoric on a policy of death and destruction, as in drone assassination and regime change (for what else is the removal of Assad?). The Turkish attack is salutary in alerting Putin to Western intentions--if he didn't know already.
8
I think nobody understands or appreciates Turkey. We are deeply disappointed by the hypocrisy and carelessness of West as well as Russia. People were heavyly suppressed and oppressed in Syria under Asads (since 1960s). 2011 was a glimmer of hope and rebellion and Turkey rightfully supported rebels wth some support from EU and US. But then things have changed. West did not care about Syrians. Asad could have been easily neutralized and Syria could have reached some type of peaceful stalemate like in Kosovo or Korea. Instead they allowed (and I believe indirectly supported) ISIS. So just another instability in middleeast so that the oil could be more easily looted. Then seeing the feast and lack of goodwill, Iran and Russia jumped to the bandwagon and are ferociously looking to consolidate their position. So the last action from Turkey should be seen as "we are sick of your cruel, materialistic, inhumane games" and "leave us alone" to all parties. Turkey will continue to house 3 million Syrians refugees with almost zero aid from the world and we will try to take care of these poor people. We are not scared of Russia and do not need NATOs help to deal with them if necessary
1
And according to the BBC News from one hour ago:
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Russia playing with fire vis a vis Turkey? It would be pathetic if it didn't have such potentially dangerous implications. Can't the USA quietly behind the scenes tell this guy to shut-up?
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Russia playing with fire vis a vis Turkey? It would be pathetic if it didn't have such potentially dangerous implications. Can't the USA quietly behind the scenes tell this guy to shut-up?
1
The USA should give Turkey an offer it can not refuse.
Turkey will be granted new territory in northern syria so its cousins can
fall under NATO control. NATO countries protect this enclave it from crazy Shiites and untrustworthy Russians. In return Turkey will cede territory to the Kurds who will become a new country joining NATO so they become allies of Turkey. NATO countries will protect the sovereignty of Kurdistan form crazy Sunnis. The upside is some people will become safer, NATO will extend its reach to the borders of Iran, and Russia behavior will be contained and there will be no more disputes and downed aircraft.
NATO will also split Ukraine in two with the Western Half becoming a member and the eastern half fully ceded to Russia as sort of a booby prize for them.
Turkey will be granted new territory in northern syria so its cousins can
fall under NATO control. NATO countries protect this enclave it from crazy Shiites and untrustworthy Russians. In return Turkey will cede territory to the Kurds who will become a new country joining NATO so they become allies of Turkey. NATO countries will protect the sovereignty of Kurdistan form crazy Sunnis. The upside is some people will become safer, NATO will extend its reach to the borders of Iran, and Russia behavior will be contained and there will be no more disputes and downed aircraft.
NATO will also split Ukraine in two with the Western Half becoming a member and the eastern half fully ceded to Russia as sort of a booby prize for them.
1
It's the height of hubris to think that one's country can go around splitting other countries into pieces.
How would you feel if France decided that the U.S. is a source of instability in the world and should be split into two, three, or ten separate countries? Wouldn't you think your opinion, as an American, should matter?
How would you feel if France decided that the U.S. is a source of instability in the world and should be split into two, three, or ten separate countries? Wouldn't you think your opinion, as an American, should matter?
2
Two stubborn fools biting their noses to spite their faces. Erdogan probably the silliest; what's a third-ranking military doing taking on a super-power, and on what calculus could he possibly believe it would make sense to trigger this destructive loss of life and material over an air-space incursion of 17 seconds with absolutely no harm whatsoever being done to his country. If there isn't much more to this than meets the eye, it's doubly foolish.
2
Reminds me of the Mavi Marmara situation in reverse. Interesting to see what happens when two autocratic bullies have a cage match.
It's very hard for me to feel one iota of sympathy for a country like Russia that has been flying with both it's wings over the borders of dozens of countries, worldwide, for the last several years. they got what they got because they kept testing countries willingness to b#tchslap them and to do it hard.
Your indignation is based on a false premise. Russia has not been violating anyones national air space. The incidents overblown by the MSM are in fact incursions into the military airspace identification zones, that stretch way beyond the national borders, and are not illegal. Oh, and West does the same towards Russia on a regular basis.
5
So then, you were in the jet that was warned to get out of Turkey's airspace? Or is your indignation based on personal assumptions ?
Big difference at the root of the problem : Turkey financially supports ISIS (ISIS oil goes thru Turkey for sale) ; Russia does not support ISIS.
Also, Russian jets are getting close to eliminating ISIS and other CIA proxy armies confronting Assad. Hence , Turkey is worried and shoots down plane.
Many other contries also support ISIS- Saudis , Israel, US. Many of these countries also claim to be anti ISIS. Mostly going thru the motions : i.e. US jets bombings in Syria that have achieved very little , whereas Russian jets have proven quite effective.
Also, Russian jets are getting close to eliminating ISIS and other CIA proxy armies confronting Assad. Hence , Turkey is worried and shoots down plane.
Many other contries also support ISIS- Saudis , Israel, US. Many of these countries also claim to be anti ISIS. Mostly going thru the motions : i.e. US jets bombings in Syria that have achieved very little , whereas Russian jets have proven quite effective.
10
If I had to pick sides between Turkey and Russia, I would have to choose to remain neutral. They are both countries with easily criticized foreign polices. Though Turkey hasn't annexed or invaded any of their neighbors.
There is also the point that Russian supported Ukrainians shot down a commercial flight not long ago. So as uncouth as it may sound, there is a bit of hubris here.
There is also the point that Russian supported Ukrainians shot down a commercial flight not long ago. So as uncouth as it may sound, there is a bit of hubris here.
Have you forgotten about Turkey's actions against the Kurds??....But you're right about the hubris here.
2
How about Cyprus??
3
How about the genocide millions of Armenians, Greeks and Syrians in the 1915-25s?
As if Turkey didn't know who the Russians were targeting? They weren't targeting Turkey, they were targeting ISIS and al-Qaeda. I think this makes it very clear who Turkey is supporting, which should be very disconcerting for the US and Americans overall.
8
"Apologize" does not exist in the Russian lexicon. Why should a serial bully expect an apology from a nation whose sovereign airspace it has serially violated in the face of repeated warning? It is Russia that owes the apology with a promise to cease the violations immediately.
www.endthemadnessnow.org
www.endthemadnessnow.org
2
It is completely unrealistic to suggest that Turkey can legitimately shoot down a Russian fighter jet known to be involved in anti-terrorism cleanup because supposedly it violated its border, just once (or even repeatedly).
Erdogan will apologize and pay restitution to the families, and probably the cost of the jet too. The US will make sure of that. If this issue is left hanging like this, Russia like every country that wants to maintain its image and status as a power broker will find an opportunity and reason to retaliate in kind. There are always plenty of opportunities in theater ooerations, or on the negotiating table, and they don't have to come right away.
NATO definitely does not want Russia to have any grounds to deliberately take down a member state's airforce jet. Erdogan will eat the consequences, or every Turkish pilot will be forever scared of coming even close to any Russian jet for the next 50 years.
If Erdogan intended to protect the flow of ISIS oil through Turkey or the Turkmen in Syria he just emboldened Russia to do just that.
Turkey really won't enjoy having those Russian SAMs on its southern flank now.
Erdogan will apologize and pay restitution to the families, and probably the cost of the jet too. The US will make sure of that. If this issue is left hanging like this, Russia like every country that wants to maintain its image and status as a power broker will find an opportunity and reason to retaliate in kind. There are always plenty of opportunities in theater ooerations, or on the negotiating table, and they don't have to come right away.
NATO definitely does not want Russia to have any grounds to deliberately take down a member state's airforce jet. Erdogan will eat the consequences, or every Turkish pilot will be forever scared of coming even close to any Russian jet for the next 50 years.
If Erdogan intended to protect the flow of ISIS oil through Turkey or the Turkmen in Syria he just emboldened Russia to do just that.
Turkey really won't enjoy having those Russian SAMs on its southern flank now.
1
Russia should recall its own vigorous defense of its airspace, including shooting down a US Navy Neptune in international airspace and the Korean 747. In comparison, the Turks don't look all that unreasonable.
With allies like Turkey and Russia, I am sure that the anti ISIS coalition will be a grand success.
With allies like Turkey and Russia, I am sure that the anti ISIS coalition will be a grand success.
1
Except for some minor policy differences Russia and Turkey are not at odds with one another. I don't care if this jet was flying over Ankara, Turkey had no business shooting it down. Would we shoot down a Mexican plane flying over Houston?
Turkey needs to make an apology for its inadvertence and offer full compensation for the damage that it did. But with that Erdogan in charge in Turkey good luck with that. That became obvious a few years ago during his Gaza flotilla shenanigans.
Turkey needs to make an apology for its inadvertence and offer full compensation for the damage that it did. But with that Erdogan in charge in Turkey good luck with that. That became obvious a few years ago during his Gaza flotilla shenanigans.
3
What I find scary is that I've seen a lot of comments from people, who obviously don't know the effects that a modern widespread war on Islam would have, now suggesting Christian nations, however you delineate them, undertake a modern-day Crusade to eliminate Islam. Hopefully, I just landed on an isolated bit of Internet commentary, but talk like this scares me. This is the type of thing Trump would use to stir his crowd up.
Why is Putin, in his new role as Vlad the Avenger, so concerned with making Turkey pay for downing a Russian warplane, with a single casualty, a military pilot, while he is apparently less concerned that Daesh brought down a Russian civilian jetliner filled with innocent passengers? Perhaps he should reassess his priorities and go after Daesh with equal or greater intensity. Is his desire to support Assad greater than his desire to extinguish a clear and demonstrated threat to the lives of Russian civilians, and indeed, of civilians and military personnel worldwide?
2
He does both intensely enough.
As he should.
As he should.
Not to be hawkish but, while I personally don't like Erdogan, I think this was a good move. Putin is testing other nations' sovereignty with increasing regularity. Current maps of the Russian border with other countries show many dotted lines of "disputed territories." The only country disputing them is Russia. This was not about a spit of land but about maintaining borders. Good fences and all that...this will eventually blow over while sending a message that may save many lives in the future. Hopefully more, similar messages are not required to get through the bluster. I fear they may be.
2
The situation in Syria is very dangerous it can evolve into a warfare between Russia and the Unites States both of them with nuclear weapons.The situation is very complex. Rusisa was invited by the soverign state of Syria to defend it from isis . Syria could have defeated the rebels diguised as moderates who were terrorist at the beginning of the civil war ,they wanted to deposed violently assad. The United States and France helped the terrorist who evolved into Isis in Syria. At present the United States are helping rebels wich can be disguised terrorist to deposed Assad. This last group is attacking the rusians making it more difficult the defeat of isis. The kurds, are attackion isis in Syria and in Iraq. Turkey is an enemy of the kurds and Isis.Iran is a friend of Assad and enemy of Isis. Saudi Arabia is an enemy of Assad and Iran eventhoug the Saudis and Assad are Alawites. isis is the enemy of civilization that mus be destroyed. Assad must be left in power he provides stability. Without stability isis could recusitate afther being destroyed. Putin must be helped he has no imperial ambitions. Putin wants to prevent the spreading of isis into the islamic minority of Russia and the republics of central asia
7
Why doesn't this writer tell t like it is: Erdogan is one of the main backers of ISIS and is waging war against its neighbor Syria. All the definitions needed to label someone a criminal. But I remember that people in Washington were amused when this Russian plane over Sinai in Egypt was downed killing 24 people. It shows where Washington is standing with regards to morality.
8
What would happen if Russia drops nuclear weapon on Ankara? Would other NATO countries counter with nuclear attack? The NATO countries should discipline Turkey if they acted on their own. If they acted with the consent of NATO to counter the Russian acts in Ukraine, it is a dangerous game that could go out of control. If Russians truly violated the Turkey air space, they should have made the diplomatic protests and warnings instead of shooting down as if they are at war. The warnings by the pilots is not sufficient before bringing down the aircraft. NATO should consider kicking out Turkey.
4
Russia keeps banning food imports. What are they to eat?
Plus, Turkey is still allowing Russian ships, both commercial and military, to pass through the Straits even though Russia is bombarding our Turkish kin in Syria. How about we stop traffic in the Straits? There is no doubt they would take over Istanbul like they did with eastern Ukraine.
Plus, Turkey is still allowing Russian ships, both commercial and military, to pass through the Straits even though Russia is bombarding our Turkish kin in Syria. How about we stop traffic in the Straits? There is no doubt they would take over Istanbul like they did with eastern Ukraine.
1
Better screaming at each other and launching sanctions
then going to war.
then going to war.
Russia is quickly running out of safe routes for transporting its oil to foreign markets. The Ukraine is too dangerous, and now Russia says it won't go forward with the pipeline across Turkey. It's a big "who cares?" for the west as long as NATO doesn't get suckered into the petty squabble between two desperate countries.
No one has Washington's back on this one and we had better tread carefully.
Russian expert/NYU professor Mark Galeotti, in an interview with vox.com, offered three possible scenarios as to what happened, one of which was that the
"Turks are actively supporting some pretty toxic rebel groups, it could have been that the target was just inside Turkish borders."
We know these groups shot and killed the Russian pilot.
Once again, who are our allies? It's not the Russians....and it's not the Turks, and it's not the many Syrian rebel groups that so many seem eager to supply with US arms.
Russian expert/NYU professor Mark Galeotti, in an interview with vox.com, offered three possible scenarios as to what happened, one of which was that the
"Turks are actively supporting some pretty toxic rebel groups, it could have been that the target was just inside Turkish borders."
We know these groups shot and killed the Russian pilot.
Once again, who are our allies? It's not the Russians....and it's not the Turks, and it's not the many Syrian rebel groups that so many seem eager to supply with US arms.
2
There you go .. Ukraine you are alone. We are in love with Russia and its president Putin. Ukraine grow up .. Crimea/ east Ukraine belongs to Russia.
President Obama please do not give in to these European leaders who can build alliance with even Putin and throw Ukraine and the only NATO sunni ally in Middle east under the bus for standing up to Putin.
Did I say Latvia and others be scared.. you belong to Russia soon!
The hypocrisy of our western leader's thought process and foreign polices are laughable at best.
Yes we need allies to fight ISIS.. and Russia is not helping before Paris attack or even now!
President Obama please do not give in to these European leaders who can build alliance with even Putin and throw Ukraine and the only NATO sunni ally in Middle east under the bus for standing up to Putin.
Did I say Latvia and others be scared.. you belong to Russia soon!
The hypocrisy of our western leader's thought process and foreign polices are laughable at best.
Yes we need allies to fight ISIS.. and Russia is not helping before Paris attack or even now!
A lot of subjects into one vent.
Let us start with Ukraine.
Ukraine had the backing of Germany and squandered it.
Putin came in with his puppet and that puppet could not run the everyday lives of Ukraine.
There was a revolt which goes on to today.
Everyday Ukraine's I am sure could not care less if the Leader was held up by Russian or Germany money.
Could some one keep the lights on beyond a day or two please.
Let us start with Ukraine.
Ukraine had the backing of Germany and squandered it.
Putin came in with his puppet and that puppet could not run the everyday lives of Ukraine.
There was a revolt which goes on to today.
Everyday Ukraine's I am sure could not care less if the Leader was held up by Russian or Germany money.
Could some one keep the lights on beyond a day or two please.
Turkey's exports to Russia amount to less than 4% of total exports. Currently, Russian market is a bit below Canadian one; why is everyone so obsessed with Russia? It's a marginal country with extremely high corruption cost.
I think right now it is time to looks which companies made money - actually, any money - by investing into Russia since, say, 2005. I don't see any major winners, only losers.
I think right now it is time to looks which companies made money - actually, any money - by investing into Russia since, say, 2005. I don't see any major winners, only losers.
1
When you say that Russia is a marginal country, it means that you never visited our country. We invite you in our country. And I hope that you will change you mind.
1
Olga!
You would invite this funny to your country. Bad idea!!!
You would invite this funny to your country. Bad idea!!!
Turkey wanted Israel to apologize for the MV Mavi Marmara incident that happened in Israeli controlled waters, but refuses to apologize to Russia (till now a friend of Turkey). Erdogan is arrogant, but he bet on Morsi and lost, bet on Hamas and lost, and now bets on ISIS and will lose again.
5
Thanksgiving for the rest of us lasted one day. The Military Industrial Complex is still giving Thanks . The MIC has so many people and countries, to thank that, it will take them minimum an extra week to do so.
More seriouly, this Incident is the reason why a No Fly Zone as advocated by Ms Clinton and Republican candidates is a dangerous move. What happen if a Russian fighter violates the No Fly Zone?
Erdogan and Putin each have egoes the Size of Alaska. Both went from Prime Minister to President and would basically like to be Presidents for Life. The US should find a political solution to this Syrian mess and gets out of there as quick as possible.
More seriouly, this Incident is the reason why a No Fly Zone as advocated by Ms Clinton and Republican candidates is a dangerous move. What happen if a Russian fighter violates the No Fly Zone?
Erdogan and Putin each have egoes the Size of Alaska. Both went from Prime Minister to President and would basically like to be Presidents for Life. The US should find a political solution to this Syrian mess and gets out of there as quick as possible.
3
The Mavi Marmara was attacked in international waters far from Israel with an unarmed civilian crew. Russia deliberately and repeatedly violated Turkish airspace while bombing anti-Assad and anti-ISIS allies of Turkey. Turkey responded by clearing signalling to Putin that it can project far more power in the region than anyother country and that Turkey is not Ukraine or Latvia. Secondly, Turkey supported Egypt's transition to democracy and your support for the bloody coup of the Sisi Junta is very revealing.
The practices of Putin's Russia follow a consistent pattern:
1. Flagrantly violate international law.
2. Fly into righteous patriotic rage when other states act to limit or deter Russian misconduct.
3. "Punish" those who sanction Russia, by in fact worsening Russia's own woes.
Russian sanctions will cause pain to Turkey ... but if you imagine a giant chastising some puny weakling, you are wrong! At present, Turkey's nominal GDP is about 2/3 that of Russia! Turkey's economy is bigger in relation to Russia, than China's to the US.
Russia is a very important trading partner for Turkey, and Turkey is also quite important to Russia. But Turkey has fairly consistent economic growth, and is part of a broad network of durable international relationships ... Russia is a contracting economy sinking into a gyre of international isolation. Russia will hurt itself substantially.
After Russia's aggression against Ukraine, Europe effectively blocked the "South Stream" gas pipeline, which was critical to Putin's economic and strategic vision: Putin wanted to be able to sell gas worry-free in Europe while tormenting and subjugating Ukraine, through which so much Russian gas presently flows.
When Putin acknowledged that the South Stream was hopeless by officially cancelling it, he mitigated the sting with the posture, "Ha! We don't need no stinking South Stream, we will have Turkish Stream instead."
To punish Turkey, Putin will wreck HIS OWN STRATEGIC COUP.
1. Flagrantly violate international law.
2. Fly into righteous patriotic rage when other states act to limit or deter Russian misconduct.
3. "Punish" those who sanction Russia, by in fact worsening Russia's own woes.
Russian sanctions will cause pain to Turkey ... but if you imagine a giant chastising some puny weakling, you are wrong! At present, Turkey's nominal GDP is about 2/3 that of Russia! Turkey's economy is bigger in relation to Russia, than China's to the US.
Russia is a very important trading partner for Turkey, and Turkey is also quite important to Russia. But Turkey has fairly consistent economic growth, and is part of a broad network of durable international relationships ... Russia is a contracting economy sinking into a gyre of international isolation. Russia will hurt itself substantially.
After Russia's aggression against Ukraine, Europe effectively blocked the "South Stream" gas pipeline, which was critical to Putin's economic and strategic vision: Putin wanted to be able to sell gas worry-free in Europe while tormenting and subjugating Ukraine, through which so much Russian gas presently flows.
When Putin acknowledged that the South Stream was hopeless by officially cancelling it, he mitigated the sting with the posture, "Ha! We don't need no stinking South Stream, we will have Turkish Stream instead."
To punish Turkey, Putin will wreck HIS OWN STRATEGIC COUP.
2
What Turkey did is disgraceful. Shooting down a plane and killing the pilot of an "unknown plane" -- over the edge of their land for 17 seconds (and would soon have left their airspace).
Could they not have fired flares, or sent planes to ride tandem with this horrendous intrusion? --or first figured out who the egregious interlopers were???
Turkey should pay reparations and apologize especially if, as they claim, they did not know who was flying the plane.
Now they know and now they can see their "mistake"- and more --and worse.
Could they not have fired flares, or sent planes to ride tandem with this horrendous intrusion? --or first figured out who the egregious interlopers were???
Turkey should pay reparations and apologize especially if, as they claim, they did not know who was flying the plane.
Now they know and now they can see their "mistake"- and more --and worse.
5
Agreed, the shooting down of the Russian aircraft missed step two when another Country breaches a sovereign countries borders.
First, you contact the wandering aircraft by radio telling them to move off.
Second, two aircraft (all ready in the air) approach again the wandering aircraft.
The first aircraft approaches on the Russian wing so close as to actually sign to them - get out. The Russian pilot at this point knows it is not the aircraft he sees he should be sweating.
And the Russian pilot moves accordingly.
Who ordered the ground to air missile to fire will never be known.
The Leaders are just left with chest thumping.
First, you contact the wandering aircraft by radio telling them to move off.
Second, two aircraft (all ready in the air) approach again the wandering aircraft.
The first aircraft approaches on the Russian wing so close as to actually sign to them - get out. The Russian pilot at this point knows it is not the aircraft he sees he should be sweating.
And the Russian pilot moves accordingly.
Who ordered the ground to air missile to fire will never be known.
The Leaders are just left with chest thumping.
Kremlin Cutting Economic Links With the Turks, as should the US and NATO. Let Erdogan be the Caliph in his own little land. He turned Turkey from a Western state to a Caliphate.
6
Russia seems to be showing that there elite forces are not all that deep. Such a timid response for a country that fancies itself a super power. Were again are they going to put their pipelines.
2
And the US public now favors putting boots on the ground (again) in this part of the world?
It is interesting what a completely different reaction Moscow has about the downing of a warplane with 2 on board compared to it's reaction to the downing of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 with 298 civilians on board. After all, Moscow had a hand, one way or another, in both of these tragedies.
5
Erdogan should not play with fire and irritate a major power, which his country is not; there's enough tension in the area without adding stupid acts to the cauldron.
2
Turkey is the most powerful military force in its immediate region. It can project more force there including nearly a million man army than even the US can. It can project far more overall power in the Middle East than Russia's second rate military can.
The Russians played "chicken" with the Turks in Turkish airspace and they lost. It was a stupid and dangerous thing to do and they paid a heavy price for their bravado. Mr. Putin needs to learn that not everyone will acquiesce when he and Russia flex their muscles. The economic sanctions that he is threatening to impose on the Turks will hurt the Russians as much as the Turks. I wonder where the Russians will end up building their gas pipeline if they eliminate Turkey. Will it be back to the Ukraine or have they burned that bridge beyond repair?
24
And what then would have been your reaction if your own country the US had of flown a jet for 17 seconds only into Turkish airspace and Turkey shot it down , and in the process two US pilots were murdered. Would you then have said that the US was playing 'chicken' and lost?
As for Russia 'burning their bridge in the Ukraine' if you only watch CNN or Fox, or, only read the NYT as you appear to you wouldn't know what most of the rest of the world knows, and that is that the US funded a coup in the Ukraine to the tune of $5 billion, ousting a democratically elected government and putting in their own Nazi government instead. You'll also be going on about the Crimea too and how Russia annexed it. No, wrong again. The Crimeans voted under international monitors in a referendum and they choose by a massive 90% to go back to Russia, where they'd been all along, until under a noble act under Khrushchev, in 1954, he gave the Crimea to the Ukraine. So Crimeans are essentially Russians anyway.
As for Russia 'burning their bridge in the Ukraine' if you only watch CNN or Fox, or, only read the NYT as you appear to you wouldn't know what most of the rest of the world knows, and that is that the US funded a coup in the Ukraine to the tune of $5 billion, ousting a democratically elected government and putting in their own Nazi government instead. You'll also be going on about the Crimea too and how Russia annexed it. No, wrong again. The Crimeans voted under international monitors in a referendum and they choose by a massive 90% to go back to Russia, where they'd been all along, until under a noble act under Khrushchev, in 1954, he gave the Crimea to the Ukraine. So Crimeans are essentially Russians anyway.
4
And you know this how? In the alleged 17 sec the incursion transpired they cannot scramble jets, reach the target, report and receive orders to shoot down.
It is plain that Erdogan had planned this all along.
It is plain that Erdogan had planned this all along.
This superficial assessment of things fails to capture the great gravity of the current situation caused by Turkey's foolish crime. This is the first time in over 50 years in which a NATO force attacked and destroyed a Soviet/Russian military target with fatal consequences. This reckless military aggression by Turkey deserves the condemnation, to support, of the USA and all other NATO countries. It also reveals that Turkey sides with the Daesh Takfiri terrorists, the same ones who blew up a filled Russian plane just a few weeks ago. The most rational outcome of this criminal act of war by Turkey is to expel it from NATO which needs to join the Syrian government in annihilating the Daesh terrorists, their roots and current sources of support. Tragically, rationality does not guide the US verbal war on the Daesh terrorists, who, like it, still has regime change in Syria as their irrational goal.
13
Who said that Putin is not a comedian?
When Crimea was invaded, Putin did not see any Russian solder in Crimea, only the ghosts without Russian military insignia;
When Russian planes flew over Turkey's airspace over and over, Putin and his generals did not see or hear any Russian pilots' response to the warning from their Turkish counterparts;
When the US and EU sanctioned Russia for its invasion of Crimea, Putin was cried foul and kicked his feet like a spoiled little boy while denying all wrong doing...
Now, he put up a face of justice and righteousness in the name of "fighting ISIS" and picked up all the tricks from the US, start "economic sanction" Turkey.
The US and EU and the rest of the world should and must support Turkey now - Putin needs to know what real justice and friends mean!
When Crimea was invaded, Putin did not see any Russian solder in Crimea, only the ghosts without Russian military insignia;
When Russian planes flew over Turkey's airspace over and over, Putin and his generals did not see or hear any Russian pilots' response to the warning from their Turkish counterparts;
When the US and EU sanctioned Russia for its invasion of Crimea, Putin was cried foul and kicked his feet like a spoiled little boy while denying all wrong doing...
Now, he put up a face of justice and righteousness in the name of "fighting ISIS" and picked up all the tricks from the US, start "economic sanction" Turkey.
The US and EU and the rest of the world should and must support Turkey now - Putin needs to know what real justice and friends mean!
7
What we're seeing in the middle east right now is a game changing operation that are currently being played over Syria . For 4 years the N.A.T.O. countries had the option of replacing Assad with the Syrian opposition but failed.
Now, enters the bear (Russia) in the scene with all its mighty paws, i.e., 50,000 ground troops, heavy artillery and thanks to stupid Erdogan, the most formidable air defense system in the whole world called SS-400 with 400 miles radius of missile capability and capable of firing 75 projectiles at any time,we can call our Syrian mission goodbye.
After the downing of the Russian plane, with Putin blaming America indirectly for the destruction of his plane and helicopter and two pilots, I think any plane other than the one Putin permits (like the french planes at present) in the Syrian sky is an open target for the Russians.
And Putin as the whole world knows, will take revenge. He's already decimating the Turkmen who shot down the helicopter and two airmen.
Its just a matter of time before he finishes all of them .
And nobody can do nothing about it,specially Turkey who cannot fly even one inch into the Syrian sky or even very close to its own border, fearing Russians are definitely going to shoot down at least one of their planes.
So what is there for the West to do other than calling it quits.
And the worst part of it all is that even if they've a pact to defend one another against Russia,no one will dare to respond to Russia's revenge act..tkb
Now, enters the bear (Russia) in the scene with all its mighty paws, i.e., 50,000 ground troops, heavy artillery and thanks to stupid Erdogan, the most formidable air defense system in the whole world called SS-400 with 400 miles radius of missile capability and capable of firing 75 projectiles at any time,we can call our Syrian mission goodbye.
After the downing of the Russian plane, with Putin blaming America indirectly for the destruction of his plane and helicopter and two pilots, I think any plane other than the one Putin permits (like the french planes at present) in the Syrian sky is an open target for the Russians.
And Putin as the whole world knows, will take revenge. He's already decimating the Turkmen who shot down the helicopter and two airmen.
Its just a matter of time before he finishes all of them .
And nobody can do nothing about it,specially Turkey who cannot fly even one inch into the Syrian sky or even very close to its own border, fearing Russians are definitely going to shoot down at least one of their planes.
So what is there for the West to do other than calling it quits.
And the worst part of it all is that even if they've a pact to defend one another against Russia,no one will dare to respond to Russia's revenge act..tkb
5
Nobody should be surprised with Turkey's actions - Ankara is the most confrontational and hypocritical power in the region. Their planes routinely violate Greek airspace and ships get within Cyprus waters, without as much as a whisper of condemnation. Now, this plane flew God-knows how close to a sliver of land they say it's theirs, and they shoot it down? Nonsense. It is also a curious thing when the Turks complain about their friendly Turkmen areas in Syria being attacked, but at the same time they carry massive aggression against the Kurds in Iraq (and why are they allowed to operate incursions into another country, by the way?). Lastly, they need to explain how the pilot was killed by rebels on the Syrian side as he was parachuting from the burning plane.. didn't they say the plane was flying over Turkey? I'm not saying Putin is totally clean, but this was Erdogan being arrogant.
12
and Putin's Russia isn't? They're worse than Turkey by 100 fold. You seemed to have forgotten recent Russian confrontational history as recent as yesterday.
1
Turkey does not kill Kurds in Iraq, only the PKK which is a terrorist organization that we are fighting against.
Dangerous children not getting along in the sandbox, dangerous children with lots of power. I disagree with Turkey's reaction to a Russian plane skimming over its border for a few seconds (this is what I read and heard). They should have provided a warning and escort planes could have been on the scene to redirect the plane. I don't agree with Putin (as normal) to accuse that the US had some involvement or responsibility for the mishap. The Russian pilots made the mistake and they are responsible for going over another's sovereign territory; I just wish they didn't have to pay so dearly for it. The number one fact if we were all adults in this is that we need to form an alliance multi-nationally and wipe out ISIS. These megalomaniac leaders get in the way of the true course of action that needs to take place to make the world safer. We have children in charge right now. No Churchill or Roosevelt exists today and there is high price for all of us to pay for that one lone fact.
12
The fact is, the Russians supplied the flight path to the US beforehand as a part of the existing agreement. The Turks knew, and used this information. It is completely natural for the Russians to assume that the information was passed down to the NATO allies operating in the region including Turkey.
3
I have the impression that Putin is the most realist in the Syrian conflict. For bad or good, Assad is the strongest and after him follows ISIS (better to support Assad than ISIS). US experiences from Afghanistan and Iraq show that it is not a good idea to support the weakest (especially when the human risk is not so bad, i.e. there are not committed genocides from the strongest). Though I don't have a doubt that Putin is the most realist, I do think that both countries wherein I am a citizen should take the side of Erdogan in this conflict. If we don't show the Russians where to stop today, we may never be able to do it. They killed 150 Dutch, killed so many Ukrainians and they now are killing the Turkmens and Liberal Syrians. It was wrong for the US and EU to back Syrian opposition, but that does not mean that they should make a second mistake and leave Russians take Syrian conflict and politics under their tutelage.
1
Charles Foster Kane: Read the cable.
Mr. Bernstein: "Girls delightful in Cuba. Stop. Could send you prose poems about scenery, but don't feel right spending your money. Stop. There is no war in Cuba, signed Wheeler." Any answer?
Charles Foster Kane: Yes. "Dear Wheeler: you provide the prose poems. I'll provide the war."
----
The incident happened afte only 1 week Obama met Erdogan during G20 .
In this incident- saga of if-s, should-s, might-s, etc , it seems that Erdogan has played Kane's role .
Wondering who's the "actor" who played Mr. Berstein's role [ i.e. providing the prose poems ] ?
That's the real question .
1
This is about the proxy war in Syria and about Turkish domestic politics, not about Turkish airspace per se. Check out Juan Cole's piece on this event on his website or on TruthDig. Short version: Turkmen guerrillas in northern Syria are smuggling weapons across the Turkish border to the Army of Conquest, an anti-Assad umbrella grouping of Salafist jihadi's in alliance with Al Qaeda forces, with the aid of both Turkey and the US, and the Russians have been targeting the Turkmen guerrillas with aerial bombardment to the effect that the flow of weapons to the so-called "moderate" (!) anti-Assad forces has been shut off. Under pressure from right-wing nationalist groups that are demanding that Turkey defend ethnically related Turkmen in Syria, Erdogan is trying to reverse this and restore arms smuggling to his proxies and boost his own political standing at home. The Russians have in effect declared that they will go to the mat with Turkey directly unless Erdogan backs off - and they mean it. We'll see what happens, but Turkey is no match for the Russians militarily or economically, so Erdogan is taking a potentially fatal risk in pursuing this line.
9
Very well laid out. I would have expected this article to lay out how the Turkmen are used by turkey for expansionism, and why Russia may be targeting them or to at least mention that erdogan's family is benefitting hugely from oil coming through ISIS.
This should have been an editor's pick.
This should have been an editor's pick.
3
Your wrong, the Russian economy is the size of Mexico. Turkey can project far more military power in its immediate region than Russia can. The Turkish airforce flies nearly 300 advanced F-16's which are superior in every way to Russia's second rate technology not to speak of the fact that the Turkish armed forces are trained to the highest NATO standards.
Russia's (read: Putin's) punctuated response to the downing of a military jet and loss of two servicemen is a sharp contrast to the largely muted response of the downing of a civilian airliner, and loss of 224 Russian civilians.
Turkey and Russia both have their respective internal and external political problems that contributed to this theatre for the world to watch.
But Russia's seemingly ambivalent response to its civilian deaths is tragic, and I'd like to see more editorials on this disproportionate reaction.
Turkey and Russia both have their respective internal and external political problems that contributed to this theatre for the world to watch.
But Russia's seemingly ambivalent response to its civilian deaths is tragic, and I'd like to see more editorials on this disproportionate reaction.
2
Let's all come to our senses. Erdogan is as much of an ally to Obama as Brutus was to Caesar and Pakistan currently is to the US. Erdogan talks out of the sides of his mouth while secretly he is probably a fan of the ISIS boys. He did a very dangerous thing shooting that airplane down and if we want to see an example of how WW3 will be started look at this act.
6
Given his nostalgia for the Soviet Union, perhaps Putin is pleased to find excuses to cut off economic relations with other countries.
1
Bellicose posturing by Putin and Erdogan is an indication of their authoritarian weakness. They are securing their authority by stoking nationalism. The incident was not an accident. Syria is their most immediate contention.
People should be asking the West for geopolitical reason for removal of Bashar al-Assad (him personally or entire entourage ). Russia should be asked for its geopolitical reason for having military bases in Syria. Then they should both weigh in the cost of this new Cold War their economy, human toll, terrorism, major wars. In the mean time, new Cold War is letting Middle Ages flourish in Middle East and slowly metastasise the world.
People should be asking the West for geopolitical reason for removal of Bashar al-Assad (him personally or entire entourage ). Russia should be asked for its geopolitical reason for having military bases in Syria. Then they should both weigh in the cost of this new Cold War their economy, human toll, terrorism, major wars. In the mean time, new Cold War is letting Middle Ages flourish in Middle East and slowly metastasise the world.
It was reckless and dangerous move on the part of Turkey as a member of NATO. There was no reason to escalate the already sensitive situation shooting down Russian plane that was no real threat for Turkey's security.
Erdogan is more dangerous as a partner than he is as an enemy.
Erdogan is more dangerous as a partner than he is as an enemy.
55
Dear Wandering,
Please make it clear that you do not speak for all Jews, especially Israelis & self respecting proud American Jews.There is a Secular Democratic Party in Turkey, who are strong supporters of America, as there are in Russia.Unfortunately, both countries have been taken over by despotic tyrants, but we must not give up on them, they are both a shaky ground, & will be overturned.
Please make it clear that you do not speak for all Jews, especially Israelis & self respecting proud American Jews.There is a Secular Democratic Party in Turkey, who are strong supporters of America, as there are in Russia.Unfortunately, both countries have been taken over by despotic tyrants, but we must not give up on them, they are both a shaky ground, & will be overturned.
1
Russia had a choice between Assad and Turkey and they chose Assad. They started bullying Turkey repeatedly since their campaign in Syria begun, they went as far as putting eight Turkish F-16s under radar lock by both MiG-29 and anti-aircraft missiles in October. They also specifically targeted Turkmen villages and Turkey backed rebels on Syrian-Turkish borders since October. The list of provocation goes on and on. The Russian ambassador was summoned by Turkey at least 5 times since Russia started its campaign in Syria. Turkey complained to UN more than one time too about Russia.
So if you think Russia has not been asking for this, you're wrong. It's exactly what Russia wants. The provocation started by Russia and Turkey was patient with Russia until they started to bomb the Turkmen. Despite Turkey's effort to de-escalate after the incident, Russia has cut economic ties and the Kremlin even rejected a request to Putin-Erdogan meeting in upcoming Paris convention. Russia continued their path of further provocation by intensifying air strikes on every single Syrian-Turkish border held by Syrian rebels and on Turkmen villages. They even started giving air support to Kurd's PYD in their new push against Syrian rebels.
Turkey on the other hand is under pressure to respond to Russia provocation especially by nationalists who voted to the AKP government for the first time instead of their preferred extreme nationalist MHP party.
So if you think Russia has not been asking for this, you're wrong. It's exactly what Russia wants. The provocation started by Russia and Turkey was patient with Russia until they started to bomb the Turkmen. Despite Turkey's effort to de-escalate after the incident, Russia has cut economic ties and the Kremlin even rejected a request to Putin-Erdogan meeting in upcoming Paris convention. Russia continued their path of further provocation by intensifying air strikes on every single Syrian-Turkish border held by Syrian rebels and on Turkmen villages. They even started giving air support to Kurd's PYD in their new push against Syrian rebels.
Turkey on the other hand is under pressure to respond to Russia provocation especially by nationalists who voted to the AKP government for the first time instead of their preferred extreme nationalist MHP party.
9
The real question is, why is Turkey aiding and abetting ISIS and al-Qaeda? Is it to support the concept of regime change in Syria? If so, and that's certainly how it appears, they're the ones who are dancing with the devil, because once that power vacuum is created, there will be no one other than hard core jihadis to fill it. If that's the end game here, the US is complicit and we all have to ask why.
1
This ego tug-of-war game between Mr. Erdogan and Mr. Putin is getting tiresome, and needs to end quickly. Who's right? Who's wrong? Who can say. None of us were there. But it starts to look funny when Turkey demands and gets an apology fro Russia, then ignores it with much blustering fanfare. And only when Russia threatens to cut all newly-forged economic links to Turkey (which was the inevitable next step), Mr. Erdogan changes his tune and wants to join the dance again. This petty two-step is coming much to the delight of ISIS fighters who have nothing to lose, and only stand to make more advancements during this farce. Stop the music. And start talking.
1
America is going to be involved in a nuclear war by Erdogan
1
Not that this thought has escaped me, but I still hope you are wrong
about the outcome.... It's too awful to even contemplate.
about the outcome.... It's too awful to even contemplate.
For a country that aspires to former global 'greatness' Russia under Putin behaves like the leader ofsome tiny, tin-horn pixie police state whose shrill, hyper-sensitive leader must defend his 'honor' against all slights - real or imagined - from the world which consistently ignores him.
Who would want to go near a coalition with him as a full-fledged member, let alone a leader?
Who would want to go near a coalition with him as a full-fledged member, let alone a leader?
5
Lets not forget we destroyed 2 nations for 9/11, where all citizens responsible for 9/11 were actually come from Saudi. Are we the only people who needs justice?. And about leadership, dont forget we started Islamic state fight forming Arab coalition, but now US only remains , rest all Arab countries started concentrating killing Shias in Yemen.
3
Once again, Russia responds by bombing our allies the Syrian Turkmen under the guise of attacking ISIS. It's long overdue to establish a no fly zone by the border with Turkey, to include the Kurds (which Turkey will resist too), & protect innocent Syrians from their despotic ruler in Damascus (protected by the Russian & Iranian regimes). Let's get on the right side of history, rather pussyfoot around & allow the refugee crisis to envelop us.
3
There's plenty of blame to go around.
On the one hand, Russia has been careless and unrepentant about its overflights.
On the other, this particular overflight was a minor one involving a small stick of Turkish territory.
Some kind of blow-back seems appropriate. Turkish jets could have forced the plane to land.
But shooting down the plane was a tactical blunder in a sensitive situation.
The two sides must stop behaving like petulant children, acknowledge joint responsibility and work to head off future occurrences.
On the one hand, Russia has been careless and unrepentant about its overflights.
On the other, this particular overflight was a minor one involving a small stick of Turkish territory.
Some kind of blow-back seems appropriate. Turkish jets could have forced the plane to land.
But shooting down the plane was a tactical blunder in a sensitive situation.
The two sides must stop behaving like petulant children, acknowledge joint responsibility and work to head off future occurrences.
17
Webster can add a new definition to the dictionary for "Middle East"; Quagmire. We need to seriously weigh our long term strategic interests in regard to this region. Put rhetoric aside. Put the infatuation of some with the Holy Land aside. Keep our support for Israel in balance with our commitment to Human Rights.
Ultimately the Moslem Nations of the Middle East need to sort this mess out. The continued interjection of the USA, Russia and Europe only delays the sorting out that must come to pass. This sorting out must neutralize ISIS and similar groups and probably result in new national boundaries and new nation states. So be it. ISIS is an idea, a terrible idea, not territory. You cannot destroy it by bombing physical things. The Moslem world must sort it out; just as we have some adherents to various forms of fundamentalism in this country that we need to address. We attract the attention of ISIS because we are there and foolishly do things like maintain the prison at Guantanamo. We are not and should not consider ourselves the World's Cop!
Ultimately the Moslem Nations of the Middle East need to sort this mess out. The continued interjection of the USA, Russia and Europe only delays the sorting out that must come to pass. This sorting out must neutralize ISIS and similar groups and probably result in new national boundaries and new nation states. So be it. ISIS is an idea, a terrible idea, not territory. You cannot destroy it by bombing physical things. The Moslem world must sort it out; just as we have some adherents to various forms of fundamentalism in this country that we need to address. We attract the attention of ISIS because we are there and foolishly do things like maintain the prison at Guantanamo. We are not and should not consider ourselves the World's Cop!
2
Turkey is main supporter of ISIS and main organizer of hell in Syria.
http://screamer.deadspin.com/why-did-turkish-soccer-fans-boo-during-a-mo...
Turkey leadership is totally corrupted and make enormous profits on oil trade with ISIS.
http://screamer.deadspin.com/why-did-turkish-soccer-fans-boo-during-a-mo...
Turkey leadership is totally corrupted and make enormous profits on oil trade with ISIS.
6
Two real international jerks putting too many people in danger. If only they could BOTH just disappear the world would be so much better off.
"We are strategic partners ... 'Joint projects may be halted, ties could be cut'? Are such approaches fitting for politicians?," Erdogan said in a speech in Ankara.
I don't seem to be able to understand of Erdogan...first of all, he should not shoot down his partner's plane particularly when the plane intruded his country's airspace for less than 20 seconds. There are many other ways to send the message.
I don't seem to be able to understand of Erdogan...first of all, he should not shoot down his partner's plane particularly when the plane intruded his country's airspace for less than 20 seconds. There are many other ways to send the message.
2
Russia is a terrorist state much more dangerous than ISIS. Kremlin hybrid army invaded Ukraine, the largest state in Europe. Putin's agents shot down Malaysian flight MH17 over Russia-occupied East Ukraine. Thousands of people killed, kidnapped and tortured - and this is still happening today - by Russian army and its mercenaries, terrorists paid, trained and equipped by Russia. Kremlin killed and tortured Crimean Tatars who have ethnic ties to Turkey and opposed annexation of Crimea. Formerly, Russia attacked and invaded Georgia with similar to Ukrainian scenario. Russia killed its own defector in England using Polonium which pretty much constitutes a nuclear attack. Finally, Russia is increasingly restricting its own citizens from traveling abroad, reading foreign mass media, purchasing foreign goods, etc. Russia is marching towards North Korea regime, which ironically was created by Kremlin, too.
8
So the implications of the NYT article is that Russia sacriiced two of its pilots so they could renege on the pipeline deal. Nefarious!
2
Now both Russia and the West have been stabbed in the back by Turkey. Hopefully Putin is serious and starts buying a ton of stuff from Israel.
Vladamir Putin on having a Turkey day of his own: “Look, all I did was invade Syria. What has that got to do with Egypt and Turkey?”
Welcome back to the Middle East, Mr. Putin. Hopefully you will learn from history and not conduct such a miserable campaign as Russia did in Afghanistan in the 1980s. A campaign which ended in typical Western nation fashion, with the Russians calling it quits and leaving with their tail between their legs, while the locals harvested the left behind weapons and got down to some serious mischief.
Welcome back to the Middle East, Mr. Putin. Hopefully you will learn from history and not conduct such a miserable campaign as Russia did in Afghanistan in the 1980s. A campaign which ended in typical Western nation fashion, with the Russians calling it quits and leaving with their tail between their legs, while the locals harvested the left behind weapons and got down to some serious mischief.
There's a lot here to digest,ie. Russia vis a vis Turkey.
No one believes for a moment that Putin is anythig but a thug and unfortunately Erdogan has let the former secular Turkish State begin its descent into an Islamic theocracy. Fixing it will be a major task for the next president, since Mr Obama for the last seven years, has chosen to sit in the political rumble seat.
It all boils down to American leadership and the best Mr Obama has managed to do is obfuscate and blame Bush for the past. Well, we're in the present and the present bodes ill for the future unless we begin to take charge whether we like it or not.
Cheers Duke
No one believes for a moment that Putin is anythig but a thug and unfortunately Erdogan has let the former secular Turkish State begin its descent into an Islamic theocracy. Fixing it will be a major task for the next president, since Mr Obama for the last seven years, has chosen to sit in the political rumble seat.
It all boils down to American leadership and the best Mr Obama has managed to do is obfuscate and blame Bush for the past. Well, we're in the present and the present bodes ill for the future unless we begin to take charge whether we like it or not.
Cheers Duke
The number and severity of transgressions by the Bush Administration deserve all the blame they get, as we'll be dealing with the consequences for many more years. However, Obama has been slow to react to the situation in Syria, and needs to devote more diplomatic and tactical resources to keep Putin in his place, and hopefully build some sort of coalition of locals and NATO to crush ISIS and oust Assad. The ME is full of 'Damned if you do and damned if you don't' situations because of our fruit salad of 'allies' and the failed Islamic states.
Well, at least Diplomacy is going to be employed, evidently, rather than guns and tanks. Perhaps we have learned a little about international relationships and understanding.......
I'm no fan of Erdogan's but it's good to see someone stand up to Putin. The Commissar is clearly under the impression that he can act as he pleases because no one will risk nuclear war with Russia. On the other hand, who says he's ready to push the nuclear button given that his own country will also be destroyed in such a conflagration? Nobody wants war, whether nuclear or conventional (except perhaps some of our Republican presidential candidates) which means we should be careful about offending potential opponents but not to the point that we cast aside our own principles and freedoms and have our allies apologizing when they've done nothing to apologize for.
6
Stu - totally disagree with your argument and find it very short-sighted. Turkey over-reacted in this incident and needed to make an apology as shooting down a foreign plane is the last resort. Other more adult things should have been done but Turkey's leader has an impulse control problem and no ability to empathize or take responsibility that a more measured response needed to come first. The long-sighted objective is to develop a huge multi-national coalition to defeat ISIS, not petty things like showing some muscle against Putin for personal reasons.
2
Turkey is being relentlessly pulled deeper and deeper into the morass of Islamism from which there is no return.
Ironic that all that Kemal Ataturk, the father of modern, secular Turkey,fought for is now being undone by Erdogan, an Islamic dictator who will brook no dissent.
While Putin is no saint, quite the opposite, his response is less aggressive than it might be. Many Russian nationalists, and there are a lot of them, are loudly criticizing him for not responding more forcefully to the downing of the Russian plane and murder of one of the survivors.
Turkey is going to lose more than Russia from all of this.
The decision to down the Russian plane regardless of whether it was in Turkish airspace for 20 seconds or not, was a major error on the part of Erdogan. He is rapidly losing what few friends in the West and the Middle East he may ever have had. The Turks were doing OK before this guy came on the scene.
Moral of the story: Be careful when you tangle with the Russian Bear.
Especially, when it is wearing the mask of Putin.
Ironic that all that Kemal Ataturk, the father of modern, secular Turkey,fought for is now being undone by Erdogan, an Islamic dictator who will brook no dissent.
While Putin is no saint, quite the opposite, his response is less aggressive than it might be. Many Russian nationalists, and there are a lot of them, are loudly criticizing him for not responding more forcefully to the downing of the Russian plane and murder of one of the survivors.
Turkey is going to lose more than Russia from all of this.
The decision to down the Russian plane regardless of whether it was in Turkish airspace for 20 seconds or not, was a major error on the part of Erdogan. He is rapidly losing what few friends in the West and the Middle East he may ever have had. The Turks were doing OK before this guy came on the scene.
Moral of the story: Be careful when you tangle with the Russian Bear.
Especially, when it is wearing the mask of Putin.
9
I agreed with you until your last two sophomoric lines.
Mr. Putin complaints that they have "…still not heard any comprehensible apologies from the Turkish political leaders, or any offers to compensate for the damage caused, or promises to punish the criminals for their crime."
Why should Turkey apologize for defending its airspace? I'm quite sure that the Russians would defend theirs quite vigorously - without any apologies.
As for the compensation and criminal proceedings, will the Russians compensate for the shooting down of Malaysian Airlines Flight 17 and prosecute those who shot it down?
Since Russians want respect a country of its size and standing in their opinion deserves, they should respect the rules of the international community and act accordingly.
Why should Turkey apologize for defending its airspace? I'm quite sure that the Russians would defend theirs quite vigorously - without any apologies.
As for the compensation and criminal proceedings, will the Russians compensate for the shooting down of Malaysian Airlines Flight 17 and prosecute those who shot it down?
Since Russians want respect a country of its size and standing in their opinion deserves, they should respect the rules of the international community and act accordingly.
1
Timoty: You are avoiding the rationale of the argument onto past malfeasances that Russia has committed (and they are oceanic). The fight fair rules are about do not use rationale that because Russia has done it to other countries, that Turkey had the perfect right to do this. I'm hearing children speaking on this link thus far, just as childish as the leaders are behaving.
Obama was in Turkey one week before this incident. His remarks following the incident implicitly threatened Russia with more of the same. It is unlikely that Erdogan would have taken such a step without the support of his buddy Obama.
Does the U.S. truly wish to be drawn into a showdown with Russia? While it may be true that Russia is outclassed when it comes to conventional arms, Russia will resort to nuclear weapons if sufficiently challenged. Putin does not see the world through rose-colored glasses, and does not see gay marriage and global warming as the seminal issues of our time.
Does the U.S. truly wish to be drawn into a showdown with Russia? While it may be true that Russia is outclassed when it comes to conventional arms, Russia will resort to nuclear weapons if sufficiently challenged. Putin does not see the world through rose-colored glasses, and does not see gay marriage and global warming as the seminal issues of our time.
7
So we should be afraid of him and Iran and ISIS and...who else?
4
And you believed Condi Rice when she said the "mushroom cloud as a smoking gun." Right? And you probably still believe her......
2
I take issue at your insinuation of Obama-bashing once again (Erdogan would not have downed a Russian plan without the support of his buddy Obama). Erdogan is just as much a megalomaniac as Putin. Very childish and jumping to conclusions which is magical thinking. Just as any 3-year old child would do. Where are the adults in this room?
A country renowned for its internal corruption and its international lawlessness, should be very careful in threatening economic boycott. When it comes down to it, Russia is not so much a business opportunity as it is a trap for suckers. The free countries of the west would be well advised to keep away.
5
History has a more interesting tale of wrangling between the US, Russia and Turkey.
In 1983, the Soviets shot down KAL 007 without warning or identification. The aircraft was cluelessly cruising in and out of Russian airspace at a much more leisurely pace than this particular SU-24 .
In 1989, Aleksandr Zuyev, the pilot who shot down KAL 007, reincarnated himself as a Russian 007, boarded a MIG 29 fully-loaded with four state-of-the-art air-to-air missiles and flew it, of all places, to Turkey. Zuyev had planned to shoot Russian aircraft on ground as a parting shot but failed due to the guns being locked. Other versions have him shoot and get shot on his way out. Interestingly, Zuyev had managed to evade Turkish radar thanks to the MIG's exotic metal alloys.
Once on the ground, Zuyev applied for successfully for asylum, you guessed it, to the US.
In June 2001, Zuyev was killed when his Soviet-built trainer aircraft stalled and pummeled to the ground, in the state of, err, Washington.
Check this link for some of the details, makes for fascinating reading
http://www.nytimes.com/1989/05/28/world/turkey-rebuffed-us-plea-to-exami...
In 1983, the Soviets shot down KAL 007 without warning or identification. The aircraft was cluelessly cruising in and out of Russian airspace at a much more leisurely pace than this particular SU-24 .
In 1989, Aleksandr Zuyev, the pilot who shot down KAL 007, reincarnated himself as a Russian 007, boarded a MIG 29 fully-loaded with four state-of-the-art air-to-air missiles and flew it, of all places, to Turkey. Zuyev had planned to shoot Russian aircraft on ground as a parting shot but failed due to the guns being locked. Other versions have him shoot and get shot on his way out. Interestingly, Zuyev had managed to evade Turkish radar thanks to the MIG's exotic metal alloys.
Once on the ground, Zuyev applied for successfully for asylum, you guessed it, to the US.
In June 2001, Zuyev was killed when his Soviet-built trainer aircraft stalled and pummeled to the ground, in the state of, err, Washington.
Check this link for some of the details, makes for fascinating reading
http://www.nytimes.com/1989/05/28/world/turkey-rebuffed-us-plea-to-exami...
7
WOW, thanks for the timely history lesson!
1
Unpleasant situation! I wish russia and Turkey to have fruitful and long lasting busianess and economic relations. Maybe, it is not possible under the current government of the USA and the current government of Turkey. But tops of governments are periodically due to be changed. I hope that Obama's successor (most probably Trump) would have another approach to the situation in that region of the world!
Anna! You make me laugh and cringe at the same time. You're implying that the US administration is the instigator when this is between the Turkey government AND THE RUSSIAN government. Trump for president, are you kidding? Do me and the rest of us a favor, don't vote in 2016!
Valerie,
By the rest of us i assume you mean your fellow Obama lovers who can do no wrong.I used to be liberal until the Democratic party was taken over by radicals like you. If Trump gets into office, & I dread the thought, it will be because of our feckless President, & his radical supporters.
By the rest of us i assume you mean your fellow Obama lovers who can do no wrong.I used to be liberal until the Democratic party was taken over by radicals like you. If Trump gets into office, & I dread the thought, it will be because of our feckless President, & his radical supporters.
1
Turkey is a NATO partner and Russia is Russia but after this consideration is very hard to distinct one from the other. Both countries important players in today's world for different reasons and both countries run by individual cults who prioritize their grips in power and their egos over anything else. They're both destabilizing players but the big difference here is that one is our close ally. Turkey today is a country with a few shared values to ours moving even closer than it was before to Islamic based ideologies and politics. I honestly shiver in horror thinking that one day we may be dragged in a war to protect what Turkey and his questionable president represent.
2
Have you been to Turkey? The middle class and the youth have mostly the same values as ours. They like iPhones and Western pop culture. You're ignorant and wrong, and probably xenophobic. Moreover, a whole bunch of a well off northern Europeans own vacation property in Turkey and travel to live there several times a year. Including Russians, too.
3
Hopefully Erdogan can be terminated from his presidency through rational free elections by the people.
2
Yes I have been to Turkey and I know very well their culture. I am absolutely not xenophobic and Much less ignorant on the subject. Being wrong only time will tell. The middle class and the youth may have all the technology but much less our values and views in many aspects. Because western rich people have houses in Bosporus section of Istanbul or because Russian tourist visit them doesn't translate in freedom and democracy. Turkey of today looks a lot like Egypt before revolution and we all what happened there.
Oh one more thing, do you know who else loves iPhones, social media and grew up in western countries and pop culture ?
Ask French people......and Syrian people for that matter.
Oh one more thing, do you know who else loves iPhones, social media and grew up in western countries and pop culture ?
Ask French people......and Syrian people for that matter.
2
For all the outrage of a downed military plane, let's remember the hundreds of innocent civilian lives lost when a Russian (Soviet) jet shot down KAL 007 in 1983, and most recently when its proxy in Ukraine, brought down the Malaysian airliner. Behind Putin's outrage is the smirk of a hypocrite.
7
Russia needs to start by realizing they are on the wrong side of this fight. Syria is a Sunni country ruled by a Shiite/Alawite religious Party. The Sunnis have been ripped off for 60 years by them and they are done with Assad and the Alawites. Turkey is a Sunni Country and along with Saudi Arabia don't care what the rest of the Muslims of the World think. Syria will be ruled by the Sunni majority sooner rather then later no matter what Iran and Russia thinks or wants. Let me know when Russia agrees to be run by Ukranians...
4
Russia's retaliation to Turkey are sanctions, the same wimpy retaliation used by Nato for Russia's insurgence in the Ukraine.What happened to the bellicose aggressive Russia we loved to hate, can it be that Russia like the rest of the World fears a Hot war with the West.I love to say I told you so, that when you punch a bully in the nose, they turn around & run.Of all the Nato countries Turkey was the only one to stand up to Russia. If Obama & Nato had the courage to stand up to Putin in The Ukraine, they would not have the Crimea & Eastern Ukraine, & Assad would be in the dust bins of history. I would also like to say the Iranian Deal would never have been signed to, & there would not be an Iranian Nuclear Threat, but I won't say it, because I want my comments to be published.
3
So true, I totally support your statement!
1
Get over yourself on the Iran Nuclear Treaty and other Western behaviors that are trying to find a way to circumvent all-out world wars.
1
Valerie,
You don't circumvent Wars by appeasing aggressors you stop wars by confronting the aggressor.Take time out from reading the slanted views of the Times, & read some History books.
You don't circumvent Wars by appeasing aggressors you stop wars by confronting the aggressor.Take time out from reading the slanted views of the Times, & read some History books.
I'm with the Russians, the Turks are double dealing. They support ISIS and are becoming more of an Islamic state themselves...
11
Seems that Turkish govvernment is not part of solutione of the MEA issue but part of the problem itself......unfortunately.
6
I would like to correct a misinterpretation. Turkish Army has warned two unidentified planes "that they are approaching Turkish airspace, and that they should turn their course to south a.s.a.p." for 10 times in five minutes. The pilots of the planes have given no response. Eventually, they crossed to Turkish airspace and their flight took 17 second inside the Turkish borders. Because of this 17 second violation, one of them has been shot down and it crashed inside the Syrian border. Then it turned out that the planes were Russian and all the hell broke loose.
If an unidentified war plane approaches to your airspace, you request them to identify themselves and state their intention. If there is no response, you warn them to change their course. If they don't change their course and violate your airspace, you shoot them down. These are the international engagement protocols, though poorly explained by me.
If an unidentified war plane approaches to your airspace, you request them to identify themselves and state their intention. If there is no response, you warn them to change their course. If they don't change their course and violate your airspace, you shoot them down. These are the international engagement protocols, though poorly explained by me.
3
Let me guess -- somehow none of your reasoning should apply on the massive and routine violations of Greek airspace by turkish jets. And I reckon, Turkey must have some "right" to question any and every border it doesn't like.
5
Really? I listened carefully to audio recordings of those so-called warnings ... and frankly, I could barely understand a single word. Totally unintelligible.
You'd think the Turkish pilot would've spoken a bit more clearly before launching missiles at an "unidentified" aircraft guilty of a 17 second airspace violation.
You'd think the Turkish pilot would've spoken a bit more clearly before launching missiles at an "unidentified" aircraft guilty of a 17 second airspace violation.
5
Doesn anyone belive in those easter bazar "10 warnings"?
From audio release it appears that turkey warns on "approaching ". But obviously trukish plane was also approaching syrian airspace? Should russia now worn turkish plane on approaching and shot ?
And now question do you want to go to the wwii for this?
From audio release it appears that turkey warns on "approaching ". But obviously trukish plane was also approaching syrian airspace? Should russia now worn turkish plane on approaching and shot ?
And now question do you want to go to the wwii for this?
2
Russians claim that there were no warnings.
Also Turkey released audio in media, but Russian military attache was denied this audio from Turkey's General Stuff - that's also what Russians claim.
Also Turkey released audio in media, but Russian military attache was denied this audio from Turkey's General Stuff - that's also what Russians claim.
After Crimea, who can blame countries for vigorously defending their borders from any types of Russian incursion?
6
Turkey is not the same country we "invited" into NATO. On the other hand there's Russia, who's returned to being the country that NATO was formed to confront. Turkey is not a Radicalized Islamic Nation as some are saying here, although the current Turkish leadership is looking awfully fascist these days. I believe Turkey staged the "terrorist" attack they blamed on the Kurds return their party to power through fear and intimidation. I have not much admiration for the Turkish leadership, neither do I for the Russian leadership. If I have to chose here, I'd still say the Russians are at fault with their bullying at threatening. Lets also not forget Ukraine.
3
What a mess!
President Bush said Saddam must go! That led to a catastrophe in Iraq with unfathomable losses on all sides.
President Obama said Assad must go! Now we another catastrophe evolving in Syria and it's neighbors.
There is lesson for us to learn. We or any other country should not be participating in leadership changes of other countries - let their people do it!
President Bush said Saddam must go! That led to a catastrophe in Iraq with unfathomable losses on all sides.
President Obama said Assad must go! Now we another catastrophe evolving in Syria and it's neighbors.
There is lesson for us to learn. We or any other country should not be participating in leadership changes of other countries - let their people do it!
14
And yet we have such a long history of behaving this way, can we start with the Shah of Iran's installation after the people had voted in a democratic election for another man. I guess we can go way back further than that, now couldn't we?
2
Agree! But we must learn! There is a higher likelihood that we could learn while the wounds are still healing. That is my point.
Turkey is not very accurate. Last week Turkish nationalists--no doubt at the behest of the Erdouan government--protested Russian air strikes in Syria in front of the Dutch Consulate. They got the wrong consulate.
In July, it was reported that Turkish "demonstrators angry about the Chinese government’s treatment of its Muslim Uighur minority attacked a Chinese restaurant. It turned out to be owned by a Turk, and worse still the chef was in fact an Uighur Muslim."
Don't blame the Turks. They probably thought they were downing a Bulgarian plane or maybe one from Lichtenstein.
In July, it was reported that Turkish "demonstrators angry about the Chinese government’s treatment of its Muslim Uighur minority attacked a Chinese restaurant. It turned out to be owned by a Turk, and worse still the chef was in fact an Uighur Muslim."
Don't blame the Turks. They probably thought they were downing a Bulgarian plane or maybe one from Lichtenstein.
7
Plain and simple.
The only way ISIS criminals can get in and out of Syria is through Turkey. Why is it so hard to see how complacent are the Turks in allowing free access for these thugs in and out of Syria? It is high time for the world to confront the obvious. The Saudis and Qataris with their financial might have lobbied the Turks and the rest of the world to allow this to go on. Isis existence depends on human flow and money supply from gulf Arab donors and its oil trade through the Turkish border, address these main issues and Isis will be easier to defeat....
The only way ISIS criminals can get in and out of Syria is through Turkey. Why is it so hard to see how complacent are the Turks in allowing free access for these thugs in and out of Syria? It is high time for the world to confront the obvious. The Saudis and Qataris with their financial might have lobbied the Turks and the rest of the world to allow this to go on. Isis existence depends on human flow and money supply from gulf Arab donors and its oil trade through the Turkish border, address these main issues and Isis will be easier to defeat....
20
There is a glaring problem with the Turkish version of the incident. The pilots ejected and landed in Syria, where "terrorist" captured or killed them. The Turkish map is not valid. If the pilots did land in Turkey, that would mean Turkey is protecting ISIS members and Syrian rebels.
8
No flights to Egypt. No flights to Turkey. No flights to Ukraine. And a shortage of shoes so walking is out of the question.
5
Turkey today, is not the same country that we allowed to enter NATO years ago. It has become more muslim radicalized, and is probably less trustworthy today than Russia. It certainly WAS NOT necessary for Turkey to shoot down a Russian Fighter plane for such a tiny infraction. There's obviously more to this. The battle lines are so blurred now in the Middle East, it's impossibe to distinguish between friend and foe.
90
NATO has to seriously think to throw Turkey out of the alliance.
7
I think it is foolish from Turkey to defend the destruction of the Russian plane. We will never know whether it entered for a few seconds Russian territory, it definitely did not plan to drop bombs over Turkey.
There is a major geopolitical issue here: Russia is a major power, Turkey is not. Perhaps some intermediary can help to resolve this incident. Not our president, he has many other things to do.
There is a major geopolitical issue here: Russia is a major power, Turkey is not. Perhaps some intermediary can help to resolve this incident. Not our president, he has many other things to do.
9
While understanding Turkey's motives (protecting their sovereignty against repeated incursions into Turkish airspace, wanting to protect their Turkmen kin, protesting against Russia's support for its enemy Assad), it was nevertheless an incredibly stupid gesture. Russia and Putin are suffering from an excess of testosterone, and so are less likely to be rational players than game theory would predict. Moreover, even if this happened in accordance with the Turkish version, it occurred at the edge of a 2-mile wide strip at the southernmost tip of a province claimed by both Turkey and Syria since the events following the First World War. Not least, it gives additional fodder to Putin's media feeding paranoids ideas to the Russian people about the "west's" enmity towards Russia.
27
Hold on there cowboy. Hatay province is Turkey's land since the 1950s according to international law. That's like saying California, New Mexico, and Texas is disputed territory since Mexico still has eyes on it. How about you go a little further back and recall that the whole Middle East was Ottoman Turkish land!
'their enemy Assad'??? Please tell me, what has Assad ever done to Turkey to earn that designation? Moreover, what has he done to the US or Saudi Arabia, the main supporter of ISIS and al-Qaeda?
1
As if the Turks are natural and indigenous to the region? They were invaders, occupiers and conquerors, which means that they were and are living on other people's land without the consent of the natives. And, 1000 years later, they're not really Turks at all, just as none of the Ottoman sultans were, either, since none of them had Turkish mothers or grandmothers. No matter what Hatay is at this point, the 15 second flyover was no reason to shoot down a friendly plane that was not targeting Turkey at all.
Ignore Putin's pleas of outrage in this instance. This is about something other than a lost Russian pilot.
It is all about driving a wedge among NATO members, most specifically France and others inclined to cooperate with Putin in Syria, both practically and in terms of optics, and Turkey.
European-Turkish relations were already strained (human rights, Turkey abetting fighters travelling to join Daesh, rifts over the Kurds, failure to make progress on EU membership, and on) and Putin, believing he is needed by the West newly-energized to attack Daesh, is pressing on the sore point. He knows, for instance, that Turkey is 1) absolutely committed to Assad succession and 2) unwilling to see anything that doesn't hurt the Kurds develop.
With France leading Europe closer to Putin, the previous Western insistence on Assad leaving is weakening (for better or worse), giving way to the desire for tighter coop with Russia. Putin is framing this diplomatically as the only "serious" way to combat Daesh, putting Europe and Turkey increasingly on opposite sides of the Assad question in the short-term.
Claiming Russia gave flight information to the US and therefore Turkey (isn't this a real coalition, he asks, mockingly?) further exacerbates one tension in this complex matrix of relations.
Unlike Republicans I do not see Putin as some master strategist but this play is reasonably smart if transparently obvious.
It is all about driving a wedge among NATO members, most specifically France and others inclined to cooperate with Putin in Syria, both practically and in terms of optics, and Turkey.
European-Turkish relations were already strained (human rights, Turkey abetting fighters travelling to join Daesh, rifts over the Kurds, failure to make progress on EU membership, and on) and Putin, believing he is needed by the West newly-energized to attack Daesh, is pressing on the sore point. He knows, for instance, that Turkey is 1) absolutely committed to Assad succession and 2) unwilling to see anything that doesn't hurt the Kurds develop.
With France leading Europe closer to Putin, the previous Western insistence on Assad leaving is weakening (for better or worse), giving way to the desire for tighter coop with Russia. Putin is framing this diplomatically as the only "serious" way to combat Daesh, putting Europe and Turkey increasingly on opposite sides of the Assad question in the short-term.
Claiming Russia gave flight information to the US and therefore Turkey (isn't this a real coalition, he asks, mockingly?) further exacerbates one tension in this complex matrix of relations.
Unlike Republicans I do not see Putin as some master strategist but this play is reasonably smart if transparently obvious.
18
Thanks. It is an interesting analysis.
If this is the shape of the situation, one may wonder if the Russians didn't keep skimming through the Turkey airspace hoping in a reaction of this kind, to exploit on the diplomatic stage.
I doubt they thought the Turks would have gone as far as actually shooting down the plane... and the pilots after they ejected (was that video real??? That's almost criminal).
Unfortunately, even the mighty (if oldish) Su-24 can't withstand a modern SAM, it seems.
If this is the shape of the situation, one may wonder if the Russians didn't keep skimming through the Turkey airspace hoping in a reaction of this kind, to exploit on the diplomatic stage.
I doubt they thought the Turks would have gone as far as actually shooting down the plane... and the pilots after they ejected (was that video real??? That's almost criminal).
Unfortunately, even the mighty (if oldish) Su-24 can't withstand a modern SAM, it seems.
1
What you're saying doesn't make a lot of sense.
Are you imputing blame for a Russian warplane being shot down by Turkey to President Putin, as part of some easily-detectable scheme by Russia? It was Turkey acting unilaterally, without consultation with NATO or the USA that brought this about.
For the first time in American History, nations are taking military action fully ignoring the United States, because the world knows what America doesn't--that Barack Obama is an effeminate, incompetent imbecile. Putin has every right to fight ISIS (stop the silly Obama nickname delusions, it's ISIS).
After six years of Barack Obama, the last thing you should critique is strategy, given the fact that Obama doesn't even HAVE one.
Are you imputing blame for a Russian warplane being shot down by Turkey to President Putin, as part of some easily-detectable scheme by Russia? It was Turkey acting unilaterally, without consultation with NATO or the USA that brought this about.
For the first time in American History, nations are taking military action fully ignoring the United States, because the world knows what America doesn't--that Barack Obama is an effeminate, incompetent imbecile. Putin has every right to fight ISIS (stop the silly Obama nickname delusions, it's ISIS).
After six years of Barack Obama, the last thing you should critique is strategy, given the fact that Obama doesn't even HAVE one.
6
You're assuming that Turkey is a bona-fide member of the western coalition. The behavior of their president makes it clear that he want shis country to have the benefits of being considered part of the "West" with none of the obligations - respect for the rule of law, for individual freedom and for divergent viewpoints most clearly among them. Erdogan is, albeit in a much less important country, no less a demagogue than Putin is.
1
Turkey Violated only Greek Airspace 2,244 Times Last Year!!! Not to mention vialation of other countries.
http://dailycaller.com/2015/11/24/turkey-violated-greek-airspace-2244-ti...
A formation of Turkish fighter jets violated Greek airspace a total of 20 times!!! in a sigle day engaging in dogfight with Greek defenders. Clear provocation.
http://www.businessinsider.com/turkish-and-greek-jets-engaged-in-dogfigh...
Moreover when Syrian air defence downed Turkish F-4 Phantom, as a reaction Erdogan said in 2012: "Brief Airspace Violations Can't Be Pretext for Attack".
I let you decide what you think about it.
http://dailycaller.com/2015/11/24/turkey-violated-greek-airspace-2244-ti...
A formation of Turkish fighter jets violated Greek airspace a total of 20 times!!! in a sigle day engaging in dogfight with Greek defenders. Clear provocation.
http://www.businessinsider.com/turkish-and-greek-jets-engaged-in-dogfigh...
Moreover when Syrian air defence downed Turkish F-4 Phantom, as a reaction Erdogan said in 2012: "Brief Airspace Violations Can't Be Pretext for Attack".
I let you decide what you think about it.
51
This is a disingenuous comparison for a number of reasons. First, Turkish "violations of the Greek airspace" result from differing interpretations of the international law. There are no territorial disputes between Syria and Turkey.
Russia has violated Iraq's, Lebanon's, and Turkey's airspace multiple times since it entered into Syria two months ago. (It has violated Turkey's airspace 4 times, excluding last two.) Turkey warned Russia first diplomatically and briefed it on the new rules of engagement it announced in June 2012, after one of its own jets was downed by Syria, after Syria had violated Turkish airspace 5 times. Russia then ignored a more stern warning in the form of one of its drones being downed for violating Turkish airspace last month. It then ignored 10 audio warnings the Turkish Air Force issued on the spot. (If the Russian jets turn off their radio communication while skirting the borders of a foreign country, that's their fault.)
Last but not least, Erdogan's statement "Brief Airspace Violations Can't Be Pretext for Attack" was made as an initial reaction to Syria, before its new rules of engagement were announced in 2012.
Russia has violated Iraq's, Lebanon's, and Turkey's airspace multiple times since it entered into Syria two months ago. (It has violated Turkey's airspace 4 times, excluding last two.) Turkey warned Russia first diplomatically and briefed it on the new rules of engagement it announced in June 2012, after one of its own jets was downed by Syria, after Syria had violated Turkish airspace 5 times. Russia then ignored a more stern warning in the form of one of its drones being downed for violating Turkish airspace last month. It then ignored 10 audio warnings the Turkish Air Force issued on the spot. (If the Russian jets turn off their radio communication while skirting the borders of a foreign country, that's their fault.)
Last but not least, Erdogan's statement "Brief Airspace Violations Can't Be Pretext for Attack" was made as an initial reaction to Syria, before its new rules of engagement were announced in 2012.
3
@Tolga
Nice revisionism there. All meant to justify a bellicose Turkish military of course. And what about the disputed landbetwwen syria and turkey this article talks about?
Turkey is the only country that doesn't not respect Greek territorial integrity and the only country that recognizes the northern regime in Cyprus. Face it, in the absence of true democracy, Turkish politicians have been feeding Turks a steady diet of imagined external threats (really, from Greece?) to consolidate public opinion around nationalist sentiment.
Nice revisionism there. All meant to justify a bellicose Turkish military of course. And what about the disputed landbetwwen syria and turkey this article talks about?
Turkey is the only country that doesn't not respect Greek territorial integrity and the only country that recognizes the northern regime in Cyprus. Face it, in the absence of true democracy, Turkish politicians have been feeding Turks a steady diet of imagined external threats (really, from Greece?) to consolidate public opinion around nationalist sentiment.
6
Tolga Yilmaz, you may have some points there. However, in this situation, there are a bunch of lies and strange actions coming from Turkey president and his top diplomats. First of all, how come debris from the Russian plane fell on Turkey side (injuring some Turkish guy!) and both pilots fell on Syrian side, one of them is executed on the very Syrian ground by some guys yelling "Allahu akbar" (nice voice background after Paris events, man!). In the air, probably, the two pilots made probably some desperate moves to fly their parachutes inside Syrian land, right? And some of the SU24 engine/wings screws/bolts decided to split after fall and fly a mile further towards the head or the bottom of that poor injured Turkish villager... And why would Russian jets turn off radio communication??? Just for some suicidal pleasure of being executed in the air after? And please can you tell me how far was the plane from Turkish airspace when the first of the 10 warnings was launched? If you know a little bit of math - which I suppose you do - try to see how many seconds you need for each warning, then calculate the distance based on an average speed of 1500km/hour. Do you want us to believe the SU24 was floating like a balloon in the air over that tiny segment of Turkish airspace? That's ... baloney, Tolga Yilmaz! I will not dispute the correct assertion of Russian violating Iraq's and Lebanon airspace, yet in this particular case Erdogan's arguments are baloney.
2
Putin and Russia act as though this is some kind of deep betrayal and that they were totally blindsided by this event, when, in fact, there has been well documented warnings from Turkey and NATO over this kind of intrusion during the past few months. When a plane flies into someone's territory there are only split seconds to react. Those kind of reactions have to be in place as a well-established policy so that the individual player don't have to think about each individual case. This allows the people who are on the ground or in the air to defend their country without long deliberation. These people don't have time to call their leaders in the middle of an attack and ask if they should follow protocol this time, or perhaps give the invading planes a pass. If this event was a one-off we could label it an overreaction, however, Russia has made these kind belligerent provocations over recent months and years, violating air space across the globe. Russia has been repeatedly warned not to do this, and warned that it could lead to exactly this kind of situation. In this case a bully has been called out and punched in the nose. Now they are playing the victim card. The radar and voice recordings don't lie, only the paid trolls who try to create some smoke and mirrors arguments are trying desperately to cloud the truth. Arguments about how many warnings could be given in 10 seconds is irrelevant here. The clear warnings have been made in public months ago.
9
Please read what really happened:
https://www.rt.com/news/323651-turkey-su24-downing-syria/
Turkey staged a provocation with full knowledge of where and when this Russian airplane will be. And after that NATO "fully supported" their member. I wonder why Russia sees NATO as threat. The message is loud and clear - NATO countries may provoke Russia under the protection of the allies.
https://www.rt.com/news/323651-turkey-su24-downing-syria/
Turkey staged a provocation with full knowledge of where and when this Russian airplane will be. And after that NATO "fully supported" their member. I wonder why Russia sees NATO as threat. The message is loud and clear - NATO countries may provoke Russia under the protection of the allies.
4
Please read how a "...paid a shadowy organization in St. Petersburg, Russia, that spreads false information on the Internet..." http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/07/magazine/the-agency.html
Let us view the world, for as second, from an Iranian and Russian perspective:
The U.S. directly caused the rise of Islamic Extremism with 60 years of oppressive geopolitical policies in the Middle East. The U.S.’s current allies in the “War on Terror” are Wahhabi-infested Saudi Arabia, Palestine-baiting Israel, increasingly regressive Turkey and Al Qaeda refuge Pakistan. (Instead of focussing on the 50 nuclear weapons that already exist in the nation that created and supported the Taleban, the U.S. is focussed on the nuclear programme of Iran that helped it defeat the Taleban in Afghanistan in the aftermath of 9/11!).
Having seen the disastrous results of removing Middle Eastern dictators in Iraq and Libya, the West has now decided to remove the dictator in Syria, but in the expectation of different results.
All the while, Saudi Arabia, Israel and Turkey are laughing their heads off at the discomfort faced by Iran and Russia as a result of crashing oil prices, seemingly ignorant of the far greater threat to their own security posed by the so-called Islamic State. The West, like deer caught in the Saudi, Israeli and Turkish headlights, has become paralyzed and has become easy pickings for radical Islamists, as we saw recently and tragically in Paris.
The West must realize it has become the victim of its own policies: It must urgently reappraise its geopolitical strategies by tackling Islamic Extremism at the source.
The U.S. directly caused the rise of Islamic Extremism with 60 years of oppressive geopolitical policies in the Middle East. The U.S.’s current allies in the “War on Terror” are Wahhabi-infested Saudi Arabia, Palestine-baiting Israel, increasingly regressive Turkey and Al Qaeda refuge Pakistan. (Instead of focussing on the 50 nuclear weapons that already exist in the nation that created and supported the Taleban, the U.S. is focussed on the nuclear programme of Iran that helped it defeat the Taleban in Afghanistan in the aftermath of 9/11!).
Having seen the disastrous results of removing Middle Eastern dictators in Iraq and Libya, the West has now decided to remove the dictator in Syria, but in the expectation of different results.
All the while, Saudi Arabia, Israel and Turkey are laughing their heads off at the discomfort faced by Iran and Russia as a result of crashing oil prices, seemingly ignorant of the far greater threat to their own security posed by the so-called Islamic State. The West, like deer caught in the Saudi, Israeli and Turkish headlights, has become paralyzed and has become easy pickings for radical Islamists, as we saw recently and tragically in Paris.
The West must realize it has become the victim of its own policies: It must urgently reappraise its geopolitical strategies by tackling Islamic Extremism at the source.
35
A lot of myopia is those statements, the way you see this is all the U.S.'s fault ? I beg to differ. Are you suggesting the dictators should have remained in place and things would be okay now? The West, as you state, are not victims of its policies, but because the West must deal with the rulers of these countries to conduct business, they conform policies to fit the reality. If these nations get rulers who look after the interest of all it's citizens like most countries try to do , the problems would be different. it is not all the West fault, the fault lies somewhere in between.
1
Please fit the Soviet incursion into Afghanistan into your imperfect jigsaw puzzle.
1
@Steve K, re your "Please fit the Soviet incursion into Afghanistan into your imperfect jigsaw puzzle":
The Soviet Union was destroyed as a result of its mistakes. Russia today is far more focussed than the Soviet Union ever was. The only major nation continuing to compound its errors is the U.S..
The Soviet Union was destroyed as a result of its mistakes. Russia today is far more focussed than the Soviet Union ever was. The only major nation continuing to compound its errors is the U.S..
2
Can Putin afford fewer access to money?
I just hope that Putin takes revenge on Turkey, the Saudis, and other Gulf States by having the FSB leak to the media all the evidence that they are the ones financially supporting ISIS and Al Qaeda. This will embarrass our government, the French and other European countries doing business with them as they support terrorists who kill their citizens. Hollande wants to stop ISIS, then he should do stop doing business with these countries and call for international sanctions against them until they stop their indefensible behavior.
41
Let's see? Two jerks don't like each other, get into an argument and they both retaliate--causing untold suffering for millions who don't give a damn about their differences. Anyone miss the irony and stupidity of a system of nation-states and rulers?
2
Turkey violates Greek airspace over 2000 times a year. I think Erdogen is more worried about his family and specifically son Bilal losing revenue from the oil that Isis is taking if Russia continues to bomb.
66
could you post a link to Bilal and the oil?
1
I'm not here to say Putin is right or Obama is bad. But one thing we have to understand is we are on one side of page, whether US/Russia/Turkey/NATO or allies and other page being ISIS.
Unless we stop fighting ourselves and punish whoever support ISIS we are gonna doom humanity to history shortly.
Already we as responsible citizens have made lot of mistake, we should atelast correct it now.
Unless we stop fighting ourselves and punish whoever support ISIS we are gonna doom humanity to history shortly.
Already we as responsible citizens have made lot of mistake, we should atelast correct it now.
4
Turkey is way out of line with their actions, they should apologize immeadiately and never be so foolish as to play with people's lives as though they were chess pieces.
This is not a game, if you screw with Russia there will be a strong response, and it is so unneccesary.
The Obama administration has messed up this relationship with Russia, that stupid reset button that Hillary presented to the Russian's should be reset again.
You get a lot more of a result with honey than with vinegar, and don't forget " Bears like Honey ".
So leave that Russian Bear alone.
This is not a game, if you screw with Russia there will be a strong response, and it is so unneccesary.
The Obama administration has messed up this relationship with Russia, that stupid reset button that Hillary presented to the Russian's should be reset again.
You get a lot more of a result with honey than with vinegar, and don't forget " Bears like Honey ".
So leave that Russian Bear alone.
27
Turkey is lying in their effort to support Daesh and appropriate Syian territory. As the conflict worsens Turkey hopes to gain through suppression of its own citizens (Kurds) as well as stealing resources from surrounding weakened states. The fact that their strategy may cause serious setbacks for Western Civilization is an added bonus.
The West is foolish to ally themselves with a nation that for thousands of years has been the pivot between east and west. Turkey has learned to play both sides against each other. We need to do an end run apology to Russia (on Turkeys behalf), severely sanction Turkey for their non cooperation or kick them out of NATO altogether. If we do nothing they will continue to undermine us.
The West is foolish to ally themselves with a nation that for thousands of years has been the pivot between east and west. Turkey has learned to play both sides against each other. We need to do an end run apology to Russia (on Turkeys behalf), severely sanction Turkey for their non cooperation or kick them out of NATO altogether. If we do nothing they will continue to undermine us.
36
Please note: Turkey has not existed for 'thousands of years'. The Turks have been in Asia Minor as invaders , conquerors and occupiers for about 1000 years, at most. The nation the west has allied itself with only came into existence in 1923, after a genocidal campaign against the indigenous Armenians, Greeks and Assyrians.
2
"...given that the territory involved is only about 2 miles across, a jet plane at 600 mph would traverse it in about 15 seconds, hardly enough time for the repeated warnings that Turkey claims."
The audio recording of those warnings are embedded in the article. They warn the Russian fighter jet to change its course while it's approaching to Turkish territory at 600 mph. It's not the first time Russian jets violating the Turkish airspace at that point. Just read the article.
The audio recording of those warnings are embedded in the article. They warn the Russian fighter jet to change its course while it's approaching to Turkish territory at 600 mph. It's not the first time Russian jets violating the Turkish airspace at that point. Just read the article.
2
2 miles in 15 seconds = 8 miles in a minute
Due to 5 minutes warnings:
5 min * 8 miles = 40 miles
Russia’s Khmeimim airbase in northwestern Syria is located a little under 20 miles from the Turkish border
Turkey can start issuing warnings to Russians just on planes take off - it is already close to the border.
Due to 5 minutes warnings:
5 min * 8 miles = 40 miles
Russia’s Khmeimim airbase in northwestern Syria is located a little under 20 miles from the Turkish border
Turkey can start issuing warnings to Russians just on planes take off - it is already close to the border.
3
SO shoot down the plane? Then murder the pilot?
2
Russia of Vladimir Putin -- as far as economic strength -- is an emerging economy; a petroleum/natural gas exporting country.
Thus, Russia is not in a position to use trade and economic boycott as weapons of foreign policy as the US does frequently.
Nonetheless, the Turkish economy of Erdogan is even more fragile and weaker than Russia. Turkey is the weakest link in this confrontation with Russia.
Thus, Russia is not in a position to use trade and economic boycott as weapons of foreign policy as the US does frequently.
Nonetheless, the Turkish economy of Erdogan is even more fragile and weaker than Russia. Turkey is the weakest link in this confrontation with Russia.
1
Remember Russian military planes, ships and submarines have been crossing into NATO air space routinely since the Ukraine issues arose. This is not been reported in the article and should be part of the ongoing reporting. I think teh Russians have been pushing these violations with no real fear of reprisal until now.
Russian Bombers in US Airspace & Over Britain this year
http://www.cnn.com/2015/07/27/world/us-russia-bombers-intentions/
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/russia/11861425/russian...
Russian Bombers in US Airspace & Over Britain this year
http://www.cnn.com/2015/07/27/world/us-russia-bombers-intentions/
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/russia/11861425/russian...
10
but we aren't shooting them down and then killing the pilots who manage to escape by ejecting.... What Turkey did was totally irresponsible, reckless, and considering the Russian aircraft had no intention of attacking Turkey, it's arguably murder... And they are on *our* side in NATO?
Can we change our minds?
Can we change our minds?
3
if you read carefully Russian plains were never in the US or UK airspace, they were close. NATO flies more missions close to Russia. Please be truthful at least to yourself.
3
When people and equipment are sent into the field of an active conflict, a price in blood and material loss will have to be paid, no matter who presents the bill. Nobody should understand this better than the Russians. Their offended reaction to this incident is most curious.
3
How do you think the US will react if one of their planes is shot and a pilot killed over Syria today?
2
Can we bottom line this situation? Turkey has really messed up by not only shooting down the bomber but killing the Russian pilot while he was in his parachute floating to the ground. I guess the barbaric Turkmen didn't realize that they were violating the Geneva Convention when they shot the pilot.
The US has also messed up when Russia gave the US its flight plan for the bombers in which the US apparently shared with Turkey. Both the US and Turkey have now backed themselves into a corner with Russia in Syria.
Putin has ordered the S-400 anti-missile defense system to be located 30 miles from the border of Turkey. The S-400 is one of the most advanced anti-missile systems in the world. The US military doesn't have an answer for this powerful and precise anti-defense system. The system is designed to target and destroy 75 targets simultaneously. This include Tomahawks missiles, stealth fighter planes such as the F-22 and the F-35 fighter jets. The system is accurate and precise. It doesn't miss its target. It is fully effective within a 250 miles radius.
Here is where most of you missed the point. With this type of weapon Putin can establish a no-fly zone in Syria and any plane that violate Syrian airspace can be shot down and there is nothing NATO or the US can do because of international law. Russia is a legitimate ally to Syria and can act on Syria's behalf. Whoever let Turkey join NATO messed up.
The US has also messed up when Russia gave the US its flight plan for the bombers in which the US apparently shared with Turkey. Both the US and Turkey have now backed themselves into a corner with Russia in Syria.
Putin has ordered the S-400 anti-missile defense system to be located 30 miles from the border of Turkey. The S-400 is one of the most advanced anti-missile systems in the world. The US military doesn't have an answer for this powerful and precise anti-defense system. The system is designed to target and destroy 75 targets simultaneously. This include Tomahawks missiles, stealth fighter planes such as the F-22 and the F-35 fighter jets. The system is accurate and precise. It doesn't miss its target. It is fully effective within a 250 miles radius.
Here is where most of you missed the point. With this type of weapon Putin can establish a no-fly zone in Syria and any plane that violate Syrian airspace can be shot down and there is nothing NATO or the US can do because of international law. Russia is a legitimate ally to Syria and can act on Syria's behalf. Whoever let Turkey join NATO messed up.
59
You grossly overstate the capabilities of the S-400. Those are Russian claims, and are not even close to reality.
A prediction; nothing of consequence will come of this event. Remember that in 1983 Russian pilots in brave defense of the motherland shot down KAL flight 007 murdering all abroad including a number of Americans. What was the eventual outcome of that? Nothing. And that killed 100's of innocents, not just one professional Russian pilot, or more rightly, a Russian mercenary since he was killing to benefit a foreign power. Not that that's ever been uncommon. Isn't it odd what folks will do to earn a living.
1
Considering the facts that both the US and Russia are nuclear powers and that Turkey is a member of NATO requiring NATO to go to war if Turkey was attacked, Turkey's shooting down the Russian jet and calling for an emergency NATO meeting was at the height of irresponsibility and recklessness and stupidity. The tepid reaction from the US and NATO indicates that Turkey was acting alone or without explicit consent from NATO. Russia's reaction so far has been confined to trade and tourism but Russia will surely and shortly begin to take actions that will intimidate Turkey short of an outright military attack, which will again raise at worst verbal tension with NATO for NATO will not risk a war with Russia over Turkey's behavior. It's overdue for the US and NATO to assess and downgrade alliance with Turkey.
39
Yes, and the US, Russia and Europe should cooperate without reviving cold-war posturing and work together to defeat ISIS. Turkey can't be trusted; the Erdogans are getting rich from illegal oil and covertly support the terrorists.
6
I am sorry, this advice comes too late and is not in line with the facts. Both NATO and US warned Russia over these provocations months ago and specifically backed Turkey with regards to it's right to react if provoked again.
4
Agree. Turkey not to be trusted or allowed in nato, given current regime. But why is Russia still a member? They invaded and stole Crimea, bombed a civilian aircraft carrying innocents , and then continued to expand invasions into the eastern Ukraine - after killing hundreds of thousands of western Ukrainians in the 1970s.
Does anyone know history any more? Is it even taught?!!
Does anyone know history any more? Is it even taught?!!
What a horrible way to celebrate "Turkey Day" 2016. Two fascistic prime ministers both very practiced at manipulating their country's media and politics to serve their own ends now at one another's throats, and their own people stuck in the middle. Very sad and scary!
2
oboma should tight economic sanctions against Russia and install patriot missile batteries on the Turkish side of the Syrian border, as well as blockading the Syrian port of Latakia.
2
Honestly now. Both Russia and Turkey are two lousy countries. Offering the world, nothing but headaches. So each want to wring the neck of the other but in the end... who cares? They can throw each other off the cliff and it wouldnt change our egg and toast breakfast tomorrow morning. Putin, though is walking a path that is not sustainable. He is fighting with everyone. So first it's the West that he has boycotted. Now it will be Turkey. Pretty soon, the only thing his people will be able to eat is oil. He is being very shortsighted and will go down in history as a person that cared for only himself and not, his people. Erdogan is simply, an idiot. He wants to be a devout Muslin and live this life in a regular society. It cannot be done my friend and you will be the loser x 2
4
Wow - your comment is off on so many levels it's astounding. If you think a Russia/Turkey conflict won't affect your breakfast in the morning you are sadly mistaken.
4
Why Putin and Erdogan forget that it's long since the Russian and Ottoman empires have been consigned to the dustbin of history and its nothing but tragic to repeat the history now. Nor is it in their own respective interests to seek geopolitical influence at a time when not only they but the whole world faces a serious threat from a common source- the Islamic State terror. Sooner the Turkish leader Erdogan expresses a genuine regret on the warplane downing incident and the Russian leader Putin responds to it with magnanimity the better for both the countries and rest of the world.
7
Erdogan is trying to calm the storm and hold France 24 television: “We might have been able to prevent this violation of our airspace differently.”
Perhaps he realises that Ankara might have over-reacted. Turkish airforce could have fired warning shots, without hitting the plane. It was essential to remind Russia of violating Turkish air-space, although Russian planes are not a direct threat to Turkey.
But since Russia embarked on the intervention in Syria, its arbitrary shelling of Turkmens in Syria, who are Turkish allies and rebels, backed by the West and the Arabs, has set the cat among the pigeons.
The US stands by NATO, which defended Turkey's action, because nobody wants to upset Ankara and jeopardise its access to the vital Turkish airbase at Incirlik.
That the Kremlin is considering severe economic ties to Turkey may just be rhetoric for domestic consumption because the Imperial Russia and the Ottoman Empire had fought a series of wars in the 17th-19th century. In recent years Moscow’s support for Nagorno-Karabakh, the Armenian-controlled breakaway enclave in Azerbaijan, is a thorn in Ankara's side, because Azerbaijan and Turkey are seen as "one nation with two states. The annexation of Crimea has led to the marginalisation of the Tartars, a Turkic ethnic group, for whose wellbeing Ankara sees itself responsible.
Perhaps he realises that Ankara might have over-reacted. Turkish airforce could have fired warning shots, without hitting the plane. It was essential to remind Russia of violating Turkish air-space, although Russian planes are not a direct threat to Turkey.
But since Russia embarked on the intervention in Syria, its arbitrary shelling of Turkmens in Syria, who are Turkish allies and rebels, backed by the West and the Arabs, has set the cat among the pigeons.
The US stands by NATO, which defended Turkey's action, because nobody wants to upset Ankara and jeopardise its access to the vital Turkish airbase at Incirlik.
That the Kremlin is considering severe economic ties to Turkey may just be rhetoric for domestic consumption because the Imperial Russia and the Ottoman Empire had fought a series of wars in the 17th-19th century. In recent years Moscow’s support for Nagorno-Karabakh, the Armenian-controlled breakaway enclave in Azerbaijan, is a thorn in Ankara's side, because Azerbaijan and Turkey are seen as "one nation with two states. The annexation of Crimea has led to the marginalisation of the Tartars, a Turkic ethnic group, for whose wellbeing Ankara sees itself responsible.
3
please read: Erdogan is trying to calm the storm and TOLD....
That the Kremlin is considering SEVER economic ties.....
That the Kremlin is considering SEVER economic ties.....
1
In the land of the Great Atarturk, this gentleman Mr. Erdogan does not fit in! Nations suffer when cynical persons wiggle into power, Turkey will not be an exception, unfortunately!
14
What Russia could not do in 70 years, ISIL has done in 1. Break up NATO.
Now, it is France, Russia, Germany Iran against Turkey, US, and ISIL, a conflict that will go on for the rest of the century.
Today, it is not the end, but beginning of the end.
Now, it is France, Russia, Germany Iran against Turkey, US, and ISIL, a conflict that will go on for the rest of the century.
Today, it is not the end, but beginning of the end.
7
In Paris today the French and Turkish flags are being waved all around.
So, now it is the US's fault that a Russian pilot was either off course or intentionally violated Turkish airspace and was subsequently shot down. Nice one Vladya. Guess it is our fault for all the Russian bomber incursions into US airspace off Alaska, too. Only in the former Soviet Union could these ridiculous lies ("explanations") be taken seriously.
6
Putin knows that line will work in the United Stateas because so many people hate their own president, and that blaming Obama is a savvy tactic.
1
Putin's new friend, Israel, had provided avionics for the no longer friendly Turkish Air Force.
The bidding for the keys opens at......
He cares not a whit where the Israeli produce is grown.
I wonder how long it will take to Mossad to penetrate the S-400 series antiaircraft system now stationed in Syria?
Everyone is drooling over that item.
We continually stick our had into a jar of scorpions and wonder why we get stung.
Embrace perfidy, lies, and depict, the handmaidens of Middle Eastern diplomacy.
And keep our children in uniform at home.
Boots on the ground are what you have after an IED goes off. They are people, someones family.
The bidding for the keys opens at......
He cares not a whit where the Israeli produce is grown.
I wonder how long it will take to Mossad to penetrate the S-400 series antiaircraft system now stationed in Syria?
Everyone is drooling over that item.
We continually stick our had into a jar of scorpions and wonder why we get stung.
Embrace perfidy, lies, and depict, the handmaidens of Middle Eastern diplomacy.
And keep our children in uniform at home.
Boots on the ground are what you have after an IED goes off. They are people, someones family.
2
Erdogan is hardly in a position to criticize Russia for violating Turkish airspace (for all of 20 seconds at most) when his forces routinely do much worse things in Syria. His unconscionable and indiscriminate bombing of Kurds, both in Turkey and Syria, as well as doing everything possible to dislodge Assad has the objective result of helping the Islamic State. And speaking of territorial integrity, let's not forget about the forty years of illegal Turkish occupation of Cypress. With friends like Erdogan and his Saudi mentors, we don't need any enemies.
64
Nobody to root for here.
Two odious jerks - Erdogan and Putin - both making the World worse in their own ways, in a questionable dispute of muddied circumstances and facts.
The first impulse for a lot of people is glee that Russia, practically the inventor of taunting air-space and boundary violation, finally got their comeuppance. Then one remembers that a pilot was killed while swinging helpless in a parachute. Not good.
But then one thinks that the same pilot had likely either been on a mission to kill hapless Turkmen along the border, or to kill anti-Assad insurgents.
Also not good.
In reaction, Putin gives his staff forty-eight hours to draw up a list of retaliatory actions he might take short of actual war; Erdogan runs off to tell his big brothers at NATO, who are regretting that they ever let him into the clubhouse.
A pox on both their houses.
Meanwhile, won't someone with a conscience undertake to help the Kurds, the forgotten victims of Russia and Turkey alike?
Two odious jerks - Erdogan and Putin - both making the World worse in their own ways, in a questionable dispute of muddied circumstances and facts.
The first impulse for a lot of people is glee that Russia, practically the inventor of taunting air-space and boundary violation, finally got their comeuppance. Then one remembers that a pilot was killed while swinging helpless in a parachute. Not good.
But then one thinks that the same pilot had likely either been on a mission to kill hapless Turkmen along the border, or to kill anti-Assad insurgents.
Also not good.
In reaction, Putin gives his staff forty-eight hours to draw up a list of retaliatory actions he might take short of actual war; Erdogan runs off to tell his big brothers at NATO, who are regretting that they ever let him into the clubhouse.
A pox on both their houses.
Meanwhile, won't someone with a conscience undertake to help the Kurds, the forgotten victims of Russia and Turkey alike?
118
How are Kurds the fogotten victims of just Russia and Turkey? The map of the Middle East was carved up mostly by the French, British, and Ottomans in the treaties of Sevres and Lausanne following WWI, obviously with little consideration to the ethnic and cultural divisions on the ground. The Soviets were generally more supportive of the Kurdish ambitions, although obviously within the context of their own interests.
There are two formal pathways to peace in the Middle East. First (the territorial integrity model), everybody puts their trial and religious differences aside, celebrates their differences, and contributes to building modern, multi-ethnic societies. Second (the self-determination model) allows for redrawing the current borders that were never based on local realities in the first place. Personally, I think the second model is less ideal, but more realistic.
Now, where is the US foreign policy here? I think it is just as selfish and destructive as that of the Turkey, Russia, and the old European colonial powers.
There are two formal pathways to peace in the Middle East. First (the territorial integrity model), everybody puts their trial and religious differences aside, celebrates their differences, and contributes to building modern, multi-ethnic societies. Second (the self-determination model) allows for redrawing the current borders that were never based on local realities in the first place. Personally, I think the second model is less ideal, but more realistic.
Now, where is the US foreign policy here? I think it is just as selfish and destructive as that of the Turkey, Russia, and the old European colonial powers.
1
WM,
Their is a winner, the American people who now can see through the Obama charade, of doing nothing while Russia had it's way with the Ukraine, Syria & Iran.We now realize, we had nothing to fear from the Russians.By retaliating with Sanctions against the Turks, Russia demonstrated they feared war just as much as we did.
With friends like Erdogan we don't need enemies, but at least they were instrumental in showing up Russia, & now we know we have nothing to fear but fear it's self.
Hopefully, in 2016 we will oust the Democrats & get back our self respect.
Their is a winner, the American people who now can see through the Obama charade, of doing nothing while Russia had it's way with the Ukraine, Syria & Iran.We now realize, we had nothing to fear from the Russians.By retaliating with Sanctions against the Turks, Russia demonstrated they feared war just as much as we did.
With friends like Erdogan we don't need enemies, but at least they were instrumental in showing up Russia, & now we know we have nothing to fear but fear it's self.
Hopefully, in 2016 we will oust the Democrats & get back our self respect.
1
It's true. As this administration watched - as Bushs grand plans for Iraq were coming apart...who did they call on? The Kurds. And who answered? the Kurds. And who has been on the ground leading assaults against ISIS? The Kurds. Hard to imagine them parting with the part of Syria they have now staked out. Let's hope we do right by them this time.
No one could hardly down the Russian acft for more than 50 years and Russia knows that it is their faith. It is hard to explain to the Russian people that their aircrafts frequently does it to the neighbours but Turkey pull the trigger. On the other hand it is hard to declare the 3.rd world war. So Russia will play with the words.
1
Hey, guys, keep it up!
Russia will play with the words, no worry!
Russia will play with the words, no worry!
1
This snowballing incident shows the trouble nationalists leaders get themselves into - their own propaganda creates the expectation of a forceful reaction that goes back and forth. Erdogan and Putin are mirror images.
World War I started because the major powers allowed themselves to be drawn in to the tit-for-tat. Both leaders must be made to understand that the world will not be drawn into war so that you can achieve your local ambitions.
If Putin breaks relations with every country that reacts to his aggressive policies by defending their rights soon Russian tourists will have only Crimea and Sochi left for vacation.
World War I started because the major powers allowed themselves to be drawn in to the tit-for-tat. Both leaders must be made to understand that the world will not be drawn into war so that you can achieve your local ambitions.
If Putin breaks relations with every country that reacts to his aggressive policies by defending their rights soon Russian tourists will have only Crimea and Sochi left for vacation.
2
Not even Crimea. There is still no electricity there.
1
How the Turks can instantly bomb a little Russian Fighter Plane but we don't know the difference between the Taliban and a massive Doctors Without Borders Hospital strikes me as scary.
9
I'd prefer Turkey losing a couple of billions USD over this issue any time over a war between Turkey and Russia.
Maybe there is a chance for regime change in Turkey.
Towards a non Islamist and democratic government.
OK, dreams and hopes die last and I am a hopeful dreamer.
Maybe there is a chance for regime change in Turkey.
Towards a non Islamist and democratic government.
OK, dreams and hopes die last and I am a hopeful dreamer.
20
But just 2 decades ago, that was turkey - warm, tolerant. Western. Can't help but thinking that they eere taken over. Not yhe same country I know and love. New leader to blame.
Turkey squabbles with the EU, Egypt, Libya, Syria, NATO, and now Russia. So much for Zero Problems with Neighbors.
5
Could we get a follow-up to the allegation that Russia had given the US details of its intended flight patterns?
7
It's really quite simple; the toughest make it to the top and act tough to stay there. Then the citizens follow the tough leader until they suffer and regret, only to forget then follow the next tough guy. It's all about the wolf pack.
All this suffering in the name of pride.
All this suffering in the name of pride.
1
Points to ponder
1. The Russian jet was in Turkish airspace for a few seconds in face of Turkish allegations that the pilots were warned for several minutes in advance.
2. Why shoot down the jet when a strong, morally outraged response from the Turks would play better internationally?
3. Both Putin and Erdogan have problems at home and there is a long history of bad blood between the two countries.
Putin and Erdogan -- two bullies playing a dangerous game of chicken.
1. The Russian jet was in Turkish airspace for a few seconds in face of Turkish allegations that the pilots were warned for several minutes in advance.
2. Why shoot down the jet when a strong, morally outraged response from the Turks would play better internationally?
3. Both Putin and Erdogan have problems at home and there is a long history of bad blood between the two countries.
Putin and Erdogan -- two bullies playing a dangerous game of chicken.
12
The only way to ease the tensions is that Erdogan offers an apology to the Russian people and pays for the damage of the fighter Jet and compensation to the Pilots family. Bar the above he and the Turks will pay a much bigger price.
I would not be surprised if a Turkish F-16 or two being shot down in the future.
Erdogan do the smart thing go down on your knees and apologize.
I would not be surprised if a Turkish F-16 or two being shot down in the future.
Erdogan do the smart thing go down on your knees and apologize.
16
I fully expect that a trap will be set with one or more Russian bombers used as bait to lure Turkish F-16's to their carefully planned destruction.
1
Why should Erdogan apologize?
Russia violated its airspace in contravention of international law.
If anyone should apologize, it should be Putin.
Russia violated its airspace in contravention of international law.
If anyone should apologize, it should be Putin.
1
The world has decided Russia is clearly on the right on this one.
However, Putin should not punish Turkish (and Russian) people for the sins of Erdogan. Moral high ground is to protest, provide evidence, forgive, and forget, and move on.
Let the universe unfold as it should. Soon the sins of Erdogan will catch up with him.
However, Putin should not punish Turkish (and Russian) people for the sins of Erdogan. Moral high ground is to protest, provide evidence, forgive, and forget, and move on.
Let the universe unfold as it should. Soon the sins of Erdogan will catch up with him.
2
Russian and Turkish leaders are behaving like angry children. They need to calm down and pick up a calculator to see how much damage they are causing their own countries by their rhetoric and juvenile actions to stop trade and tourism. If things get out of hand this could be dangerous. The US should calm down both sides.
1
I guess I'm not part of world then. It seems to me that nobody's right. A probably deliberate but not dangerous provocation met by a crazily disproportionate lethal response. Two bullies that the few civilized people left unfortunately need to cooperate to fight a greater evil.
1
I'm not sure which world you live in.
Russia violated Turkish airspace, in a war plane, no less, and was shot down.
Can you imagine if a NATO member plane strayed into Russian airspace? I doubt the Russians would be sanguine about it, that's for sure.
Russia violated Turkish airspace, in a war plane, no less, and was shot down.
Can you imagine if a NATO member plane strayed into Russian airspace? I doubt the Russians would be sanguine about it, that's for sure.
1
Crimea. Ukraine. The downing/murder of the passengers on the Malaysian airliner. Along with murder after murder of political opponents. And, now, Turkey is the country which takes a real stand against Putin. Go, Turkey.
10
Fiction.
1
Fact.
1
If you compare Russia as a whole today to a person reacting to unexpected slights and/or attacks from people they used to trust, I don't think its response would seem irrational. Russia will definitely take an economic hit for applying sanctions to Turkey, but who respects a person who always prioritizes making money over self-respect? The way Turkey took down this jet made it all but impossible for Russia not to respond very aggressively because the Russian military has quickly become a moral pillar of Russian society, where the economy is flagging and politics stagnant. What did they expect Russia to do, just take it?
No matter how you slice it, though, Turkey's behavior has been much much worse for Turkey than anybody else. The American perspective is pretty pragmatic, and I'm sure a lot of people in the Obama administration are thinking they'd be pretty angry, too, if that happened to the US. It appears that behind closed doors the American and NATO leadership is not happy with Turkey, especially Erdogan. It couldn't be clearer right now how little any other NATO country would like to go to war for Turkey, especially when it is doing stupid things like this.
No matter how you slice it, though, Turkey's behavior has been much much worse for Turkey than anybody else. The American perspective is pretty pragmatic, and I'm sure a lot of people in the Obama administration are thinking they'd be pretty angry, too, if that happened to the US. It appears that behind closed doors the American and NATO leadership is not happy with Turkey, especially Erdogan. It couldn't be clearer right now how little any other NATO country would like to go to war for Turkey, especially when it is doing stupid things like this.
95
I do not believe the US government - as part of policy - would pass on to Turkey data about the flight paths of the Russian planes in Syria. But I do believe that some rogue US officer might have passed that info on to Turks to gain favor with them. Some people can't keep their mouths shut.
It seems as if the Turks ambushed the Russian planes so they might have know where and when they would be. It was all very quick.
But Turkey will be the loser here. Putin will use this to flush Turkey out of Syria. The Turkish air force is already restricting itself from going into Syria.
And politically Turkey is exposed as the arrests of the Cumhuriyet journalists and Erdogan himself have exposed the Turks aid to terrorist groups in Syria. Daesh is not the only terrorist group there.
Paradoxically, it is Putin the one defending Western civilization whereas our "alliy" Turk would like to see the emblems of islam floating over the Vatican.
It seems as if the Turks ambushed the Russian planes so they might have know where and when they would be. It was all very quick.
But Turkey will be the loser here. Putin will use this to flush Turkey out of Syria. The Turkish air force is already restricting itself from going into Syria.
And politically Turkey is exposed as the arrests of the Cumhuriyet journalists and Erdogan himself have exposed the Turks aid to terrorist groups in Syria. Daesh is not the only terrorist group there.
Paradoxically, it is Putin the one defending Western civilization whereas our "alliy" Turk would like to see the emblems of islam floating over the Vatican.
27
One day humans, like dinosaurs, will be extinct. Let's hope it is not because we allow ourselves to be destroyed with testosterone-fueled tribal and religious-based warfare. The boys are letting their egos run away with them again and it does not bode well for humanity. They are using OUR hard-earned taxpayer dollars and OUR sons and daughters as war fodder to wage their power wars. Are WE - the Good, average people of the world - actually going to allow them to continue to escalate a militarily un-winable situation? WE must not. President Obama - Get America, and OUR money and people, OUT!
67
I was born in 1939 and have always been optimistic that war would eventually disappear after WW2 as a method for resolution of disputes between humans. Also I never thought that a nuclear war was likely to happen. The current state of discord in the world is astounding when one considers what we know about our world and existence. Religion should have died out by now but there are still ignorant people who still believe in God and immortality! Warfare and violence only beget violence and warfare - that should clear to anyone. Clearly our educational systems have failed.
As for warfare, it is always the average people who pay the price not our "leaders" who keep well out of harms way. They no longer lead the cavalry charge.
The West should keep out of the Middle East and let them resolve their problems - we've already messed up the area with colonialism , and that includes the US. The most important problem is the is a real likelihood of nuclear conflict due the abundance of nuclear weapons in the region. Because of the lunacy of religion this is probably bound to happen sometime soon.
As for warfare, it is always the average people who pay the price not our "leaders" who keep well out of harms way. They no longer lead the cavalry charge.
The West should keep out of the Middle East and let them resolve their problems - we've already messed up the area with colonialism , and that includes the US. The most important problem is the is a real likelihood of nuclear conflict due the abundance of nuclear weapons in the region. Because of the lunacy of religion this is probably bound to happen sometime soon.
13
Human nature needs centuries to change,one human generation to next.Few decades ago English were at french throats and some decades later justifiably major nations at German , Italian and Japanese throats.This is one more piece of human history at precipice of major war.Luckily for us we do have some cooler heads at helm in Washington DC and Berlin..
We'll lurch from crisis to crisis in future decades to come too.
As long as there are sane and mature adults at helm guiding their nations, I do have hope well bridge this Syrian and future crisis to come...
We'll lurch from crisis to crisis in future decades to come too.
As long as there are sane and mature adults at helm guiding their nations, I do have hope well bridge this Syrian and future crisis to come...
1
My money is on climate change (unlike the dinosaurs, we'll deserve it), but I hope to be dead by then.
2
With the economic sanctions Russia is cutting off its nose to spite its face.
The Turkish people may decide to boycott Russian goods after the Russians decide to end the sanctions. And the Turkish government may tell Putin to permanently forget the pipeline which he really needs.
The Turkish people may decide to boycott Russian goods after the Russians decide to end the sanctions. And the Turkish government may tell Putin to permanently forget the pipeline which he really needs.
18
What kind of Russian product in Turkey are you talking about? Vodka?
6
Whatever King Vlad is doing to save face, he is not flying over Turkish airspace anymore.
12
Now what would Russia do if a warplane flew into Russian airspace and refused to leave after multiple warnings.
Perhaps Putin will figure out his arrogance has limits.Maybe
Perhaps Putin will figure out his arrogance has limits.Maybe
12
Given the seconds that lapsed at the speed the jet was travelling it would have been impossible for the Turks to have given "multiple warnings" as you claim.
1
ISIS is dancing in the streets as a result of this stupid bully-fight.
29
The Economist is featuring a synopsis and recommendation both to the Turks and the Russians which basically exhorts an eye on the ball strategy. Prior to this event the Russians lost an airliner full of innocent people while the Turks have suffered as well. The article proposes among others suggesting the elevation of ISIS to the real target of peace and humanity it is. May the world and all nations eliminate this terror together, a victory worth celebration.
Dr. Alan Phillips, Sr
Dr. Alan Phillips, Sr
4
Rather comical Russian comment about Turkey -- artful, cunning, and hypocritical! As if that isn't the definition of Russia's dealings with the rest of the world.
23
There isn't a more hypocritical and silly country than the US. Its citizens reflect that.
6
Erdogan could not even sleep thinking about how he could put down a russian jet.It is hardly imaginable very professional pilots tripulating a modern military jet capable of such error.Erdogan has been a very negative influence on the Syria civil war.
26
Given the sanctions already in force from NATO members, Russia might be running out of economic links to cut.
However, given that the territory involved is only about 2 miles across, a jet plane at 600 mph would traverse it in about 15 seconds, hardly enough time for the repeated warnings that Turkey claims.
However, given that the territory involved is only about 2 miles across, a jet plane at 600 mph would traverse it in about 15 seconds, hardly enough time for the repeated warnings that Turkey claims.
73
kwb, Cumming, GA,
The warnings would have been sent PRIOR to the incursion into Turkish airspace. That's what warning means.
Once the plane entered Turkish airspace, it was fair game considering it ignored roughly 10 warnings over 5 minutes that it was dangerously close to Turkish airspace.
The length of time the plane was actually in Turkish airspace is immaterial to the fact that was, in fact, in Turkish airspace.
The warnings would have been sent PRIOR to the incursion into Turkish airspace. That's what warning means.
Once the plane entered Turkish airspace, it was fair game considering it ignored roughly 10 warnings over 5 minutes that it was dangerously close to Turkish airspace.
The length of time the plane was actually in Turkish airspace is immaterial to the fact that was, in fact, in Turkish airspace.
1
Oh, Turkey is in a lot of troublr, but this country essentially committed succeed de and I cannot fathom the lack of decent press coverage on that fact. First, Turkey's account of a 17 second iverflight of Turkish airspace is mathematically impossible. Worse, Russian, in an attempt to cooperate with the Obama White House, released details of the flight path of that Russian plane to the Turks. Someone in the US government told Turkey exactly when and where that plane would be and Turkey, shot it down for them. WikiLeaks attributes this madness directly to Obama.
32
I cannot believe that 8 people 'liked' this incoherent spiel. Does anyone really believe that the U.S. gave Turkey information in order to help it shoot down a Russian plane? Why? Why, on earth, would we do that? This is Obama Derangement Syndrome on steroids.
As an aside: what was the first sentence supposed to state?
As an aside: what was the first sentence supposed to state?
60
While Washington plays footsie with the Sunni Islamists in Syria for short-sighted geopolitical advantage over rational adversaries like Russia and Iran, Putin sees with the clarity of genius what the establishment of a Sunni fundamentalist caliphate in Syria would entail for the region and, particularly, for Europe.
But even we, here in (alleged) fortress America, will pay a heavy price for arming, training, and funding these terrorists — it is only a matter of time.