So what else is new? The USA has been in bed with the most barbaric governments imaginable, Islamist and others. It's a disgrace. Please keep pointing it out!
22
The Middle East is now a Game of Thrones. Next the US will rename their drones Dragons and the metaphor will be complete. Perhaps we should just stay home and watch. Winter is coming.
6
NYT readers have been pointing to this very troublesome situation for a while, glad you are looking into this.
This is also USA's troubling Turkey game. On the one side, we have a dictator that is barely any better than any of the region's other dictators. He suppresses dissenters, bombs his people, and openly supports groups we all hate (alQueda and ISIS). But they also allow us use of their airspace and are our one solid ally in the region. They are part of NATO, but support radicals we fight against.
We really should not ally with them, but we cannot afford to loose them. Meantime we provide the weapons he uses against our allies, while arming people who fight against them. Encouraging Turks to have a Turkey Spring would bring the mess to the border of Greece.
What to do about Turkey, a horrible partner, but the last wall between the West and the Middle East, since time immemorial.
This is also USA's troubling Turkey game. On the one side, we have a dictator that is barely any better than any of the region's other dictators. He suppresses dissenters, bombs his people, and openly supports groups we all hate (alQueda and ISIS). But they also allow us use of their airspace and are our one solid ally in the region. They are part of NATO, but support radicals we fight against.
We really should not ally with them, but we cannot afford to loose them. Meantime we provide the weapons he uses against our allies, while arming people who fight against them. Encouraging Turks to have a Turkey Spring would bring the mess to the border of Greece.
What to do about Turkey, a horrible partner, but the last wall between the West and the Middle East, since time immemorial.
12
I wholeheartedly agree with this article. Thankfully, the NYT will call out our "ally" Recep Tayyip Erodgan when our government will not. It seems obvious to me that Erdogan will do whatever it takes to keep the Kurds of Turkey and Syria contained. Even if it means jumping into with bed with ISIS.
15
This history is complex, but it has always been clear that, for Turkey, the PKK was a greater threat than ISIS. No one who has paid any attention to this region should have been even a little surprised by that.
Turkey is a NATO member and an often helpful ally.
The US and the UK built strong relations with the Kurds during and between the two Iraq wars.
The PKK was founded by Russia's KGB for purposes of undermining Cold War Turkey but has evolved its own way post-Cold War.
These and several other regional tangles where our own and our allies' interests differ and overlap with each other in clear but complex ways demand the very highest levels of focus and leadership from the US.
Turkey is a NATO member and an often helpful ally.
The US and the UK built strong relations with the Kurds during and between the two Iraq wars.
The PKK was founded by Russia's KGB for purposes of undermining Cold War Turkey but has evolved its own way post-Cold War.
These and several other regional tangles where our own and our allies' interests differ and overlap with each other in clear but complex ways demand the very highest levels of focus and leadership from the US.
12
'climate of instability that secured the Nov. 1 electoral victory for Erdogan' was created by the terrorist PKK with HDP support. They played the wrong card. They strenghtened Erdogan and weakened themselves. They did their heinious terrorism against the advice of Ocalan who said " " I said there can be no peace under shadow of guns. When guns talk, we cannot talk about peace and a solution, I had told them. They did not listen. I was right. It is time for the PKK and HDP to do self-criticism. Their politics failed, they became unsuccessful. They took up arms and clashed with the state at the slightest disagreement. The positive outcomes were wasted," he went on and said "" Kurdish people did not support the organization. They [PKK] were not able to feel the pulse of people's demands and analyze what people wanted," .
3
The PKK is an armed insurgency in Turkey who routinely kill policemen, soldiers as well as government appointed teachers. As the article states, they made a final big mistake of killing two policemen in thei own homes while they were sleeping. No nation could accept that. They did this after winning a historic victory in elections.
5
Blocking an earlier moderate Turkey being European was a missed opportunity.
4
Perhaps the US goverment and State Department need to wake up and see who they are embracing and praising as allies. Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Turkey, Iran, et al. With friends like these who needs enemies.
11
Excellent analysis. That's why it is so important to really press Turkey to recognize the Armenian genocide. As long as the Turkish government don't recognize that crime (just like the Germans recognize the Holocaust), they admit it as a legitimate action they are free to repeat (on the Kurds this time). Recognition of the Armenian genocide by all Western parliaments (like, e.g., the French one) is imperative, if we want to signal Erdogan that his 16th century dreams of an Ottoman empire are doomed.
10
Erdogan has always been a hard core Islamist, from the days he was favoured by CIA chiefs and Neocons to present, where Angela Merkel visited Turkey just a week before the recent elections clearly giving Erdogan a much needed photo opportunity for the sake of refugee crisis now at the doors of the EU.
Erdogan took Turkey from a staunchly secular nation (under watchful eyes of the Turkish Army, which is needed in this part of the world) into a bastion of near rogue nation that shamelessly supports Islamist fundamentalists across the globe. All took in a decade or so, again clandestinely supported by the US and by the EU. Had the US and the EU not supported this uber egoistic Islamist, Erdogan would have never held onto his power.
That is still the case.
The day the US cleanly stops supporting Erdogan but supporting secular foundations of Turkey, is the day he will start facing the International Criminal court of Hague for the crimes he has committed.From the sarin gas ISIS has been using against Kurds and Syrian civilians to heavy weaponry and artillery Erdogan conveniently lets passes through to ISIS-Al Nosra hands.
Again, if only the US wishes.
Erdogan took Turkey from a staunchly secular nation (under watchful eyes of the Turkish Army, which is needed in this part of the world) into a bastion of near rogue nation that shamelessly supports Islamist fundamentalists across the globe. All took in a decade or so, again clandestinely supported by the US and by the EU. Had the US and the EU not supported this uber egoistic Islamist, Erdogan would have never held onto his power.
That is still the case.
The day the US cleanly stops supporting Erdogan but supporting secular foundations of Turkey, is the day he will start facing the International Criminal court of Hague for the crimes he has committed.From the sarin gas ISIS has been using against Kurds and Syrian civilians to heavy weaponry and artillery Erdogan conveniently lets passes through to ISIS-Al Nosra hands.
Again, if only the US wishes.
25
We should give up on Turkey and back the Kurds. They are moderate, grateful for what support they have gotten from the west and treat religion as a right but not an obligation. Kurdistan has a better chance of leading the muslims into the light than Turkey, which is all ego and games with the current government
20
Erdogan and his cronies are playing a political game of fire, the fuel of which is what he probably calls collateral damage to attain his political aspirations. So much suffering in many parts of the Middle East is caused by selfish, power hungry, corrupt leaders. Erdogan is a perfect example of such leaders who on the surface appears to be pro democracy while in reality he is corrupt to the core and not much different from any totalitarian leader. He has caused so much suffering starting with the Syrian refugee population for which he tried to cash in on their suffering negotiating with the EU for their well being to the way he treats his Kurdish minority population denying them the right of self determination.
8
As mentioned in the article Erdogan is very afraid that one day Turkish people are going to ask questions about the corruption and murders he is responsible for. This makes him much more dangerous as he his trying to save his bottom. Elections in July did not provide Erdogan's party with enough support to rule with unlimited power. As a result, the level of terrorism in Turkey increased dramatically with possible planning and support of the Erdogan's party and the Turkish secret service. It is highly likely that the suicide bombings in Ankara and Suruc were planned by MIT, the Turkish secret service, to create an uncertain environment in which Erdogan will gain public support, meanwhile providing an opportunity to suppress opposing parties and democratic forces in the country. In addition, by immediate attacks on PKK, Erdogan gained the support of generally nationalistic Turks. He won for the time being. But he is afraid, very afraid.
6
The US seems to have a penchant for picking unreliable allies. I offer as examples Saudi Arabia who supplied 15 of the 19 World Trade Center bombers and who has some powerful people funding ISIS and Turkey who bombs the only ethnic group in Syria and Iraq that seems willing and capable of fighting ISIS. There are no good solutions but for once the US should proclaim a basic set of principles and punish those, directly or indirectly, who don't abide by them. The EU can certainly help by applying economic pressure. Just as Putin has to be careful, Turkey and the Saudis need some reminders of what the west will not accept. The irony is that Iran is the only country willing to fight ISIS and the US will not play ball with them.
8
Can Turkey still remain a NATO member? Should it?
5
Nobody with power wants the Islamic State to go away. It is a convenient, one-size-fits-all terrorism threat that excuses clandestine activity across the globe in a way Al-Qaeda could have never dreamed of.
Kurds take advantage of the instability to establish a Kurdistan foothold, which they have wanted for over a century; Russia uses IS to justify crackdowns at home and support of a murderous dictator in Syria; Turkey consolidates power by allowing IS to kill with abandon while Turks abandon freedom for security; European nations that take in migrants see downward pressure on wages and lower costs for their corporations; American arms manufacturers reap massive profits from this forever war; Iran slinks from pariah to ally as their historic hatred of Sunnis fuels their regional ambitions; Saudi Arabia gets to bomb Yemen while nobody's watching; Egypt's military-nationalist government subjects its citizens to perpetual lockdown; the West in general stokes the fear of IS to expand their surveillance programs to unprecedented heights; and China gets to sit back and watch its rivals - America, Europe, and Russia - bomb their money into sand.
Am I forgetting anyone?
Kurds take advantage of the instability to establish a Kurdistan foothold, which they have wanted for over a century; Russia uses IS to justify crackdowns at home and support of a murderous dictator in Syria; Turkey consolidates power by allowing IS to kill with abandon while Turks abandon freedom for security; European nations that take in migrants see downward pressure on wages and lower costs for their corporations; American arms manufacturers reap massive profits from this forever war; Iran slinks from pariah to ally as their historic hatred of Sunnis fuels their regional ambitions; Saudi Arabia gets to bomb Yemen while nobody's watching; Egypt's military-nationalist government subjects its citizens to perpetual lockdown; the West in general stokes the fear of IS to expand their surveillance programs to unprecedented heights; and China gets to sit back and watch its rivals - America, Europe, and Russia - bomb their money into sand.
Am I forgetting anyone?
45
It is interesting that two of America's strong allies in the Middle East, Turkey and Saudi Arabia have rather ambiguous relationships with radical groups such as ISIS.
11
"President Obama should press his ally hard on all these fronts." ...
Are you kidding ...? Erdogan is one of Obama's Best Friends... along with Rouhani of Iran...
Are you kidding ...? Erdogan is one of Obama's Best Friends... along with Rouhani of Iran...
1
Good piece, Turkish Erdogan is playing a murky game, as an Islamist, he is not crushing IS nihilists, but Kurds as reported publicly. His game will take Turkey into the world of oblivion. http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2015/10/27/452192207/turkey-s-jet...
2
I read about these two journalists. There aren't words for this horror. I read today of the stoning to death of a young woman. I want to say something in response here, but actually cannot find words. But thank you for your reporting.
5
Immediately after ISIS released the Turkish diplomats unharmed and WITH THEIR HEADS STILL ATTACHED, and then attacked Kobani in Northern Syria, Erdogan proclaimed that this town would fall in short order. It appeared rather obvious that some type of quid pro quo was at the core. As a Sunni Islamist, it is rather clear where Erdogan's sympathies lie. Where it not for US efforts to supply the Kurds in Kobani, Erdogan's words would have been prophetic. Mr. Cohen's makes the most significant point when he notes how "law and order" prevented the AKP from arresting a clearly dangerous suicide bomber but it was OK to arrest journalists and other dissidents around Turkey. Erdogan does not want peace with the Kurds, he wants to eliminate them. He also supports Hamas allowing Mashael to live freely in Turky and has ruined a long standing Turkish-Israeli relationship. And with the Miramar boat incident, appears to want Israel gone as well. This man is not to be trusted, and Mr. Obama should count his fingers if the opportunity comes to shake his hand. With friends like this, no one need enemies.
6
Turkey is no different than any other theocracy,The fact that turkey practices some form of Democracy like voting does not make it a Democracy.The Greater majority of Turks are devout Muslims, which is why Erdogan is in office, Erdogan doen't hide from the fact that he is an ardent follower of the literal interpretation of the Koran.True Democracy can only exist & thrive in a secular society which eliminates Turkey.Obama has to come to grips with the fact that Freedom of thought,& the Press cannot exist in a Theocracy, like Iran, Iraq, Syria or any other place in the Middle East. Democracy is hanging on by a thread in Israel with a rapidly growing Orthodox community, which is why Netayanhu is still in office.You can't argue with God, especially when all the antagonists believe they are the chosen people.
We must help the Kurds, but beyond that let ISIS & the Russians fight it out.
We must help the Kurds, but beyond that let ISIS & the Russians fight it out.
1
Can we PLEASE lay off the "age-old conflict" theme? The "age-old conflict" between Kurds and Turks dates from the aftermath World War I, as does the "age-old conflict" between Arabs and Jews.
These conflicts are the result of 19th-century romantic nationalism, introduced with European encouragement to a Middle East totally unsuited to French and German-style nationalism.
These conflicts are the result of 19th-century romantic nationalism, introduced with European encouragement to a Middle East totally unsuited to French and German-style nationalism.
20
Turkey seems about to go the way of Syria --and before that Libya. Good luck on trying to join the Eurupean Union.
1
Read this article last night and am rereading it this morning --- but wanted to comment, "stay safe"! I'm also worried, as years ago, a religious person told me, "it will start in Turkey."
4
Again, America finds itself in the Middle East with allies that don't share the same interest as the US.
Saudi Arabia and the Gulf states have basically signed off from the War against ISIS to focus on the Houtis in Yemen and taking Damascus away from Teheran.
Turkey is more interested in destroying the Kurds than fighting ISIS.
These allies are basically saying that they don't consider ISIS a threat. Yet the US is spending money and sending troops to fight ISIS?
If there is Fire here in Miami, we will not wait for firefighters to come from NYC or somewhere else to fight it, unless we are the Pyromaniacs who started the fire.
ISIS wouldn't exist if it weren't for Turkey who let more than 30.000 fighters crossed its border into Syria. ISIS would not exist if it were not receiving money and support from Saudi Arabia and its allies in the region.
The US should pull out, and let Russia, Iran and Assad fight ISIS.
Saudi Arabia and the Gulf states have basically signed off from the War against ISIS to focus on the Houtis in Yemen and taking Damascus away from Teheran.
Turkey is more interested in destroying the Kurds than fighting ISIS.
These allies are basically saying that they don't consider ISIS a threat. Yet the US is spending money and sending troops to fight ISIS?
If there is Fire here in Miami, we will not wait for firefighters to come from NYC or somewhere else to fight it, unless we are the Pyromaniacs who started the fire.
ISIS wouldn't exist if it weren't for Turkey who let more than 30.000 fighters crossed its border into Syria. ISIS would not exist if it were not receiving money and support from Saudi Arabia and its allies in the region.
The US should pull out, and let Russia, Iran and Assad fight ISIS.
8
The US has been complicit in Erdogan's actions, simply by not strongly declaring support for the Kurds, who appear to be our only effective allies in the area. We get air bases, Erdogan bombs the Kurds and we say nothing. Worse, we do nothing!
8
The IS is a big problem for everyone that's true. Nevertheless, Roger Cohen and most commentators don't understand the mindset of fear in Turkey. The PKK has been a serious security problem for Turkey since the 1980s. They have in the past aggressively acted against the country's integrity and population and have started doing so again after Suruç. The government's reaction was indeed extreme and aimed to create more instabilty in the run-up to the elections. However, the PKK is very much to blame itself. That organization is not interested in peace. The HDP offers an avenue for peaceful political action. Why then do some Kurds still support the PKK? Why do they not support a democratic party instead? Because then the PKK's raison d'être - the fight against Turkey and for Kurdish autonomy/independence - would dissapear.
4
There is no dearth in that general region of people to hate. It’s so bad that we need a map of the dozens if not hundreds of adversary tribes and organizations, updated daily. Unfortunately and despite the concern of regular people, ISIS obviously is just one of them.
Sometimes, one gets the impression that Moscow’s reaction to all this is that just enough help should be provided, first here, then there, to allow them all to exterminate themselves.
Unfortunately, after having had his head handed to him four years ago and more over Afghanistan, we no longer hear Joe Biden making the same recommendation that got him in such trouble then: put a fence around the whole mess, keep an eye on anything happening inside that could affect anything outside and deal with it surgically, but basically let them duke it out themselves until nothing is left.
We may be forced to this anyway.
As to Turkey, ISIS spells a loss of sovereignty within its own borders; and, anyway, Erdogan is now electorally safe for the time being. He probably can afford to stand down from his anti-Kurdish excess to some degree, and he would benefit from striking at ISIS that so blatantly flouts Turkish control over Turkish territory. Erdogan also may have given up hope of closer integration with Europe, but if he hasn’t he’s going to have to start offering up bonafides again.
Sometimes, one gets the impression that Moscow’s reaction to all this is that just enough help should be provided, first here, then there, to allow them all to exterminate themselves.
Unfortunately, after having had his head handed to him four years ago and more over Afghanistan, we no longer hear Joe Biden making the same recommendation that got him in such trouble then: put a fence around the whole mess, keep an eye on anything happening inside that could affect anything outside and deal with it surgically, but basically let them duke it out themselves until nothing is left.
We may be forced to this anyway.
As to Turkey, ISIS spells a loss of sovereignty within its own borders; and, anyway, Erdogan is now electorally safe for the time being. He probably can afford to stand down from his anti-Kurdish excess to some degree, and he would benefit from striking at ISIS that so blatantly flouts Turkish control over Turkish territory. Erdogan also may have given up hope of closer integration with Europe, but if he hasn’t he’s going to have to start offering up bonafides again.
3
"What does Erdogan — in theory a key American ally leading a NATO state — see in the knife-wielding jihadis of the Islamic State?"
It is both sad and pathetic to see that the NY Times has not a single writer with any real knowledge of the world outside the U.S.
Turkey has NEVER been much of an ally, despite its NATO status, that required our sons and daughters to die, if necessary, defending the Turkish state. Pakistan, hardly the definition of "reliable ally", is a more reliable ally than Turkey. Both countries are more like albatrosses around our throats.
Erdogan's immediate plan is to end democracy, begun in 1922, in Turkey. That, of course, is something the U.S. is fully prepared to support, even as we claim the contrary. In fact, ISIS is not really a threat to the U.S. It is much more of a threat to Turkey with which it shares a border.
Erdogan will take dictatorial powers in Turkey.
Erdogan will once again attempt to find a "Final Solution" for Turkey's Kurdish problem.
Erdogan will succeed in holding the line against the Islamic State and they may even become tacit allies.
WE are almost completely irrelevant to what happens is the region.
It is both sad and pathetic to see that the NY Times has not a single writer with any real knowledge of the world outside the U.S.
Turkey has NEVER been much of an ally, despite its NATO status, that required our sons and daughters to die, if necessary, defending the Turkish state. Pakistan, hardly the definition of "reliable ally", is a more reliable ally than Turkey. Both countries are more like albatrosses around our throats.
Erdogan's immediate plan is to end democracy, begun in 1922, in Turkey. That, of course, is something the U.S. is fully prepared to support, even as we claim the contrary. In fact, ISIS is not really a threat to the U.S. It is much more of a threat to Turkey with which it shares a border.
Erdogan will take dictatorial powers in Turkey.
Erdogan will once again attempt to find a "Final Solution" for Turkey's Kurdish problem.
Erdogan will succeed in holding the line against the Islamic State and they may even become tacit allies.
WE are almost completely irrelevant to what happens is the region.
4
The Islamist Turkish government certainly have more in common with ISIS in its DNA than with the US. Same is true for our many sunni "friends" who want to take the world back a few centuries and are quite brutal with their enemies and women. Yes, we are useful as a gullible sucker to fight their wars when they need us and sell them weapons. But, no, if it comes to taking sides between US and ISIS, Turkey will choose ISIS.
4
The writer is right: Turkey is playing a double game but that is not unusual in the Orient. And the bottom line is that the AKP and Daesh are not very apart in their dogma.
Our top leaders are not any better: They are all putting Russia and Daesh in the same basket of enemies; if the latter gets its hands on a single nuclear weapon, Obama and company will find out the hard way how different Russia and Daesh truly are.
The NYT has a vested interest in disipating all this folly for I am convinced that Manhattan is on the short list of Daesh targets.
Our top leaders are not any better: They are all putting Russia and Daesh in the same basket of enemies; if the latter gets its hands on a single nuclear weapon, Obama and company will find out the hard way how different Russia and Daesh truly are.
The NYT has a vested interest in disipating all this folly for I am convinced that Manhattan is on the short list of Daesh targets.
1
Turkey under Erdogan seems headed towards the same disaster that General Zia brought upon Pakistan by trying to co-opt violent religious extremists for political purposes. After over a quarter century of violence by religious extremists (first intra-sectarian, followed by direct attempts to force their way into power), Pakistanis finally seem to be realizing the stupidity behind such ultra-nationalist right wing policies.
7
So many questions, and most of the world should take little interest in the answers. Ignore the delicate groundwork for Western "assistance." This is an inter-Muslim problem (most Kurds are Muslims following the Shafi'i school), dating back centuries, that should be resolved with the blood and money of Muslims and no one else.
The civilized West is already feeding, sheltering and doctoring hundreds of thousands of young, healthy and uneducated Muslim males who have ever-so-bravely abandoned their Islamic home countries. Turkey couldn't shove them through and over Turkish borders any faster. Let's not reward the cowardice, greed, and violence of everyone involved by putting our own people and money at risk anywhere in the Middle East again.
The civilized West is already feeding, sheltering and doctoring hundreds of thousands of young, healthy and uneducated Muslim males who have ever-so-bravely abandoned their Islamic home countries. Turkey couldn't shove them through and over Turkish borders any faster. Let's not reward the cowardice, greed, and violence of everyone involved by putting our own people and money at risk anywhere in the Middle East again.
5
I cannot conclude anything from this article or any comments. All I know is that Erdogan holds Turkey together and we do not need another Egypt in the Middle East. Also, why can't negotiations solve the problems of the Turkey and the Kurds instead of more sabre rattling from the United States. I am sick of the endless wars and it must stop at some point. We cannot solve hundreds of years of problems with these people when we cannot even solve our own racial problems and problems with our police, etc.
4
Why the US is fighting with ISIS? ISIS did not attack any US targets so far. Why the US comes from 7000 miles away and spend huge resources to fight with ISIS? Because US thinks that ISIS is a threat to its people and its interests.
The conflict with PKK has cost Turkey 45000 lives and huge amount of resources for 40 years. I can cite you tens of cases where PKK attacked state allied Kurdish villages and killed everyone including women and children even new born babies. I can cite you many terrorist attacks where PKK used suicide bombers to kill tens of civilians in the most crowded metropolitan centers of Ankara and Istanbul.
You can support PKK in this conflict and cite other examples of the wrong doings of the Turkish state against civilians etc. (I can also cite examples of US drone attacks which killed innocent civilians including women and children). But in any case if you think it is reasonable to ask Turkey to stop its fight with PKK just because PKK is fighting against ISIS in Syria and use all its resources to help your fight with ISIS while PKK is still fighting with Turkish armed forces and police in Turkey, I will tell you this is a delusion(almost everyday PKK kills Turkish security forces and in some weeks they kill tens of them).
This does not mean that Turkey is not against ISIS or does not want to fight ISIS. ISIS hates Turkey most probably even more than they hate US. But fihgting PKK is a priority for Turkey just as fighting ISIS is a priority for US.
The conflict with PKK has cost Turkey 45000 lives and huge amount of resources for 40 years. I can cite you tens of cases where PKK attacked state allied Kurdish villages and killed everyone including women and children even new born babies. I can cite you many terrorist attacks where PKK used suicide bombers to kill tens of civilians in the most crowded metropolitan centers of Ankara and Istanbul.
You can support PKK in this conflict and cite other examples of the wrong doings of the Turkish state against civilians etc. (I can also cite examples of US drone attacks which killed innocent civilians including women and children). But in any case if you think it is reasonable to ask Turkey to stop its fight with PKK just because PKK is fighting against ISIS in Syria and use all its resources to help your fight with ISIS while PKK is still fighting with Turkish armed forces and police in Turkey, I will tell you this is a delusion(almost everyday PKK kills Turkish security forces and in some weeks they kill tens of them).
This does not mean that Turkey is not against ISIS or does not want to fight ISIS. ISIS hates Turkey most probably even more than they hate US. But fihgting PKK is a priority for Turkey just as fighting ISIS is a priority for US.
2
Erdogan wishes to lead the Islamic world, that is a given , and he will use any means within his power to achieve this . Where once the Turkish State was admired for its separation of state and religion , Erdogan has used the simmering tensions of a religious divide to advance his personal agenda . He is not far from becoming an absolute leader and not enough Turks see the danger ......
4
If Ergodan had any sense of the growing reality of ISIS straddling his very long border, he would see the sense in supporting a restructuring of Turkey into a Republic of Turkey and Kurdistan (similar to Serbia and Montenegro) as his best worst option.
2
"You hear a lot of such talk from the Erdogan camp these days — talk that implausibly conflates Islamist jihadis and Kurdish militants, as in the official characterization of the Ankara bombing as a “cocktail” involving both. It is this sort of manipulation of the facts that undermines the government’s insistence that it’s in the Islamic State fight for real."
Swap "Bush" for "Erdogan", "Saddam" for "Kurdish militants", "9/11" for "Ankara bombing" and "hunt for Osama bin Laden" for "Islamic State fight" in the above. Then you see what most everyone outside the US media bubble (or not swayed by the war propaganda) saw 13 years ago. It is the real reason why US power has ebbed in the last decade. Wagging our finger and saying, "Do as we say, not as we do" is a pretty weak foreign policy, particularly when the conflation is so transparent. Thanks, Bush/Cheney/Rumsfeld/Wolfowitz/Bolton/etc.
Swap "Bush" for "Erdogan", "Saddam" for "Kurdish militants", "9/11" for "Ankara bombing" and "hunt for Osama bin Laden" for "Islamic State fight" in the above. Then you see what most everyone outside the US media bubble (or not swayed by the war propaganda) saw 13 years ago. It is the real reason why US power has ebbed in the last decade. Wagging our finger and saying, "Do as we say, not as we do" is a pretty weak foreign policy, particularly when the conflation is so transparent. Thanks, Bush/Cheney/Rumsfeld/Wolfowitz/Bolton/etc.
8
ERDOGAN will end up destabilizing Turkey, since he is delusional in his believ that the ISIS forces are going to do his bidding then fade away. Just the opposite will occur. ISIS extremists' interests are not limited to the persecution of an ethnic minority: They're interested in taking over the whole country and eradicating the majority of the population whom they consider to be infidels.
Now the Turks who have become highly observant will see the downside of their fervent commitment mixing fundamentalist religious practices with modern politics. The combination is highly explosive and uncontrollable, just like the forest fires have become in the West in the US.
Will an Atatürk arise again to restore secularism in Turkey's political life? Who will come to the rescue when the terrorism of ISIS spins out of control and threatens government institutions?
Just give Boris Putin a call. He fancies such situations. He'll gladly bomb both sides at the same time to test the weapons on his naval vessels.
By the way, President Erdogan, you can forget about NATO and EU memberships. It's never gonna happen on your watch. I hope the Turks will be able to hold another round of emergency elections to throw out the current terrorist government before the country falls to ISIS and the Taliban.
Now the Turks who have become highly observant will see the downside of their fervent commitment mixing fundamentalist religious practices with modern politics. The combination is highly explosive and uncontrollable, just like the forest fires have become in the West in the US.
Will an Atatürk arise again to restore secularism in Turkey's political life? Who will come to the rescue when the terrorism of ISIS spins out of control and threatens government institutions?
Just give Boris Putin a call. He fancies such situations. He'll gladly bomb both sides at the same time to test the weapons on his naval vessels.
By the way, President Erdogan, you can forget about NATO and EU memberships. It's never gonna happen on your watch. I hope the Turks will be able to hold another round of emergency elections to throw out the current terrorist government before the country falls to ISIS and the Taliban.
3
Ironically, the US is supporting the Erdogan government against the Kurds who are labeled 'terrorists' and helping Saudi Arabia in their unlawful war in Yemen against the Houthis. Both the Houthis and Kurds are minorities fighting for their right to express their views freely and share power. Both Saudi Arabia and Turkey are guilty of countless human right violations and are financing the spread of extremist Sunni ideology by directly or indirectly supporting Sunni terrorists, including ISIL, and suppressing minority groups, which include the Shia in Saudi Arabia. When will the US call the bluff of these regimes and put pressure on them to stop their murderous streak. The Erdogan government and Saudi regimes have so much blood on their hands. Turkey should be threatened to be kicked out of NATO if they don't get serious in fighting the war against ISIL.
3
After WWI the Ottoman Empire and the Caliphate were disbanded.A great vacuum was created that has not been placated a century later. Erdogan fancies himself as the new leader of the sunni world. National borders are not impediments his new Caliphate. ISIS wants to create a Caliphate as does Turkey. Erdogan is using ISIS to do his dirty work throughout the middle east and northern Africa. He will only turn on ISIS after they have captured much of the territories he wants to rule, all of the middle east except Iran and northern Africa. Then he will use Turkey's military and NATO to crush ISIS.
3
"the turkish president needs to..." , or else what?
he has the blessing of the united states...and you will never see any move on the part of washington to proscribe turkey's actions!
it is a runaway train at this point - the turks are as self-delusional about their own greatness as they have ever been, and washington drinks the cool aid!
he has the blessing of the united states...and you will never see any move on the part of washington to proscribe turkey's actions!
it is a runaway train at this point - the turks are as self-delusional about their own greatness as they have ever been, and washington drinks the cool aid!
1
The Wahhabi cult from Saudi Arabia is destabilizing all Sunni states. Attacking the source will become the evident necessity in time.Watching the Saudis creep away from Syria to support ISIS in Yemen is on the front page. The Saudi connection to ISIS, Al Qaeda, Taliban, and Boka Haram is increasingly obvious, and yet we are allies? We are allied with Turkey. Erdogan is an Islamist, but like Republicans, he is not "conservative enough" for the crazies. The Kurds appear to be the only rational player in the region. America must re-examine our support of Turkey, Saudi Arabia (and friends), Iraq, and "moderates" in Syria. The Kurds are not the terrorists. They are not Wahhabi.
3
“We are used to bullets, but that, no. To slaughter a human like an animal is unthinkable.”
It has never been unthinkable in Turkey. All one has to do is look at how Armenians were treated in 1915. It's just that the target is now different.
It has never been unthinkable in Turkey. All one has to do is look at how Armenians were treated in 1915. It's just that the target is now different.
2
" ... “We are used to bullets, but that, no. To slaughter a human like an animal is unthinkable.” ..."
30 miles from the Syrian border maybe, but it happened in Europe too, just remember France a few months ago.
As you cannot stop a belief with bombs we will see and already see the spreading of Islam and some of it's more ardent followers around the world.
But of course, someone will always tell us that this has nothing to do with religion.
Genozides and ethnic cleansing never had.
30 miles from the Syrian border maybe, but it happened in Europe too, just remember France a few months ago.
As you cannot stop a belief with bombs we will see and already see the spreading of Islam and some of it's more ardent followers around the world.
But of course, someone will always tell us that this has nothing to do with religion.
Genozides and ethnic cleansing never had.
Are we still talking about this? Leave the Middle East!
Why don't ME terrorists target China or Chile? Answer: because those nations aren't meddling in ME affairs. It is time for the USA to leave and let the people of the ME work it out.
Why don't ME terrorists target China or Chile? Answer: because those nations aren't meddling in ME affairs. It is time for the USA to leave and let the people of the ME work it out.
5
Quite a dazzling theory but, this anti-Turkey tapestry fails.
Turkey has been bombing the Kurds, and vice versa, long before, and right up until the creation of ISIS. That it continues today doesn't make it pro-ISIS. Turkey is an important member of NATO proving bases against ISIS, even though domestically, it's a thorny issue.
The idea that Erdogan can control whether or not ISIS can "develop networks" inside Turkey is absurd. To imply he is responsible for these two deaths is insulting in the same way loaded propaganda is insulting. With what control Erdogan does have, he would certainly, like any sane leader, try to prevent ISIS networks, which is, in fact, what he does. Because a terrorist's dad warns a government about his wayward son does not translate into a leader "failing to act".
This Op-Ed reads like conspiracy theory. Sure, there are some basic truths, but, beyond that, Cohen presents evidence of nothing except the violent, nasty state of the region and Turkey's inability to control it. The theory that Erdogan is deliberately creating this condition, instead of politically surviving this condition, is pure fantasy and contradicted by the evidence. This creationist theory is more cynical than even the most cynical politicians.
Many American opinion writers are exhibiting a neocon-ish and jingoist emotion toward this region that should make readers uncomfortable. It started against Russia and now some are targeting our NATO member allies too. Enough.
Turkey has been bombing the Kurds, and vice versa, long before, and right up until the creation of ISIS. That it continues today doesn't make it pro-ISIS. Turkey is an important member of NATO proving bases against ISIS, even though domestically, it's a thorny issue.
The idea that Erdogan can control whether or not ISIS can "develop networks" inside Turkey is absurd. To imply he is responsible for these two deaths is insulting in the same way loaded propaganda is insulting. With what control Erdogan does have, he would certainly, like any sane leader, try to prevent ISIS networks, which is, in fact, what he does. Because a terrorist's dad warns a government about his wayward son does not translate into a leader "failing to act".
This Op-Ed reads like conspiracy theory. Sure, there are some basic truths, but, beyond that, Cohen presents evidence of nothing except the violent, nasty state of the region and Turkey's inability to control it. The theory that Erdogan is deliberately creating this condition, instead of politically surviving this condition, is pure fantasy and contradicted by the evidence. This creationist theory is more cynical than even the most cynical politicians.
Many American opinion writers are exhibiting a neocon-ish and jingoist emotion toward this region that should make readers uncomfortable. It started against Russia and now some are targeting our NATO member allies too. Enough.
12
And what about the porous Southern border of Turkey through which jihadis from Europe were let through to join ISIS?
3
The Salafist sect of Islam is a puritanical sect of Sunni Islam. It is divided into three sub-sects: The Wahabbi Salafists believe in the divine right of kings. The Brotherhood Salafists believe in democracy similar to that in the Southern US from the end of Reconstruction until 1960, where party leaders decided who could run, and election officials decided who could vote. The Caliphatists want a Caliph (and are divided, because each Caliphatist sub-sub-sect wants its own Caliph).
Erdogan is very much a Salafist. His first choice for Syria would be a Brotherhood government, which would not allow non-Salafist Muslims or Kurds to vote if they could possibly win. His second choice would be a Wahabbi government with ties to Saudi Arabia. His third choice would be the Daesh (ISIS in English), since it feels the same way as he does about non-Salafist Muslims and Kurds.
And if the Daesh kills off troublesome Kurds in Turkey, so much the better.
Erdogan is very much a Salafist. His first choice for Syria would be a Brotherhood government, which would not allow non-Salafist Muslims or Kurds to vote if they could possibly win. His second choice would be a Wahabbi government with ties to Saudi Arabia. His third choice would be the Daesh (ISIS in English), since it feels the same way as he does about non-Salafist Muslims and Kurds.
And if the Daesh kills off troublesome Kurds in Turkey, so much the better.
13
What an incredibly one-sided commentary. Otherwise how does one explain Mr. Cohen’s failure to inform his readers that the person he quotes as alleging “ISIS has been delegated (by the Turkish government) to fight a proxy war against Kurdish Rojava” the mayor of Dıyarbakır, Gültan Kışanak, has been under indictment since September for engaging in propaganda for an illegal organization, namely the PKK; an organization on our own U.S. State Department terrorist organizations list.
In fact, just today additional criminal charges were filed against Ms. Kışanak for “membership in an armed terrorist organization” based on evidence obtained as a result of a recent raid by the Turkish police on a PKK hideout in the Kayapınar district of Dıyarbakır which allegedly turned up evidence showing her to be an active member in that terrorist organization.
Mr. Cohen himself describes Dıyarbakır as “the effective capital of Kurdish aspirations for autonomy within Turkey”. Yet nowhere does he address the question as to by what legal right does an ethnic minority living in an internationally recognized sovereign nation get to unilaterally declare their own autonomous enclave within its borders.
Perhaps Mr. Cohen also supports the aspirations of those seeking to establish similar independent enclaves here in the United States under the banner of secession:
http://www.salon.com/2013/10/12/five_different_culturally_homogenous_sec...
In fact, just today additional criminal charges were filed against Ms. Kışanak for “membership in an armed terrorist organization” based on evidence obtained as a result of a recent raid by the Turkish police on a PKK hideout in the Kayapınar district of Dıyarbakır which allegedly turned up evidence showing her to be an active member in that terrorist organization.
Mr. Cohen himself describes Dıyarbakır as “the effective capital of Kurdish aspirations for autonomy within Turkey”. Yet nowhere does he address the question as to by what legal right does an ethnic minority living in an internationally recognized sovereign nation get to unilaterally declare their own autonomous enclave within its borders.
Perhaps Mr. Cohen also supports the aspirations of those seeking to establish similar independent enclaves here in the United States under the banner of secession:
http://www.salon.com/2013/10/12/five_different_culturally_homogenous_sec...
3
.. and there was no Armenian genocide?
1
Erdogan has in no way been punished for supporting ISIS, he has not even been called on it. The Kurds are our only ally against ISIS and the US isn't protesting Erdogan's support of ISIS against Kurds outside of Turkey. Not a word about Erdogan stomping on democracy in Turkey. Mama Merkel goes to Erdogan hat in hand because Turkey is warehousing millions of migrants from Syria and other war-torn areas of the ME. Ergogan wants financial help, which is reasonable. He demands easier passage for Turks to Europe, which is not reasonable because ISIS has free access to Turkey. Turkey let ISIS suicide bomb Ankara and behead ISIS critics in Sanliurfa, Turkey. Erdogan thinks they are useful, but his pets are using him and he could lose control of them - if he ever had it.
2
Turkey's border with Syria and Iraq is roughly 700 miles long. How anyone would think they could keep any half way determined terrorists out is beyond me. That was never a possiblility, even for a competent president who - unlike Erdogan - hadn't gone power-crazy. The only weapon they have against ISIS terrorism is their own still fairly nationalist population, which is loath to give up Kurdistan and the Kurds. Erdogan has gotten rid of the decennial coup d'etats, got the military under control (instead of vice versa) and got Turkey on a more democratic path. Now, he's in the Mugabe phase of his presidency and probably unable to see sense. It's time ISIS/Iraqi Sunnis got their own state (West of Baghdad, East Syria) so they have something to lose. They'll need one anyway.
4
Seriously, America has a friend and ally just like Turkey. It's called Pakistan. With friends like that, who needs enemies?
3
Erdogan implicated not just the PKK and ISIL in the Ankara bombing but also, to complete the "cocktail" (his expression despite being teetotal), Assad ("Syrian Intelliigence") and his erstwhile buddy -- but, since 2013, his bete noire -- @ PA, USA, Fetullah Gulen. What I think the public needs to hear and would likely appreciate are Gulen's thoughts on the recent bombings and on the recent election -- also what he might have to say in refutation of Erdogan & Co.'s persistent claim that FG's Hizmet ('Service') organization has been operating in Turkey as a 'parallel state' with the goal of subverting and usurping the AKP government. Does Gulen consider the Turkish President and Prime Minister in any way paranoid -- and, if so, in a clinical, or rather merely a quintessentially byzantine way? Would the NYT please dispatch a reporter to Pennsylvania to investigate and report back.
1
Erdogan has a history of supporting Hamas and other terrorist groups, but ISIS? And if so, how far does it go….? So-called terrorist forces require logistical backing, just like regular armies; this can only come, in most cases, from State sponsors.
As they say eventually chicken come home to roost. The ideology that brought Erdogan to power is the same extremist ideology that is being practiced by ISIS, Al-Qaeda, Saudi Arabia, and many GCC countries. These are our so called friends in the region. We have always felt better with a strongman ruling countries that we deal with instead of Democracy; although we spent quite a sum in promoting so called Democratic norms.
We are fighting Assad with a group of countries to help the Syrians become a democratic and tolerant nation. The group of nations involved in helping ISIS, Al-Qaeda, and others fight the regime are not Democratic but dictatorial regime. Saudi Arabia has two individuals on Death Row for insulting the ruler? Sheikh Nimr and Ali Nimr (a 17 year old kid to be killed by crucifixion)
Turkey has and continues to provide logistical support to ISIS. Turkey is still a NATO member?
Turkey keeps killing its own people the Kurds with indiscriminate bombing and extra judicial murders. Turkey still remains part of NATO. I guess Democratic norms do not matter in NATO
We are fighting Assad with a group of countries to help the Syrians become a democratic and tolerant nation. The group of nations involved in helping ISIS, Al-Qaeda, and others fight the regime are not Democratic but dictatorial regime. Saudi Arabia has two individuals on Death Row for insulting the ruler? Sheikh Nimr and Ali Nimr (a 17 year old kid to be killed by crucifixion)
Turkey has and continues to provide logistical support to ISIS. Turkey is still a NATO member?
Turkey keeps killing its own people the Kurds with indiscriminate bombing and extra judicial murders. Turkey still remains part of NATO. I guess Democratic norms do not matter in NATO
4
Turkey's "troubling ISIS game" plays into the hands of Saudi Arabia and its Gulf allies, even though they don't care much about the Kurds' ambition. In an effort to expand its "caliphate" ISIS is trying to grab as much territories as possible, including those of the Syrian Kurds, and this suits Ankara very well.
It explains the strength of ISIS, as it is being left in peace by Assad, and the two is said to have a "symbiotic relationship" - according to John Kerry.
The Sunni Arabs tolerate ISIS, although they don't admit it. Their only goal in the region is to topple Assad and diminish Iran's influence. So they leave Erdogan alone with the Kurds as they see it as no business of theirs.
It explains the strength of ISIS, as it is being left in peace by Assad, and the two is said to have a "symbiotic relationship" - according to John Kerry.
The Sunni Arabs tolerate ISIS, although they don't admit it. Their only goal in the region is to topple Assad and diminish Iran's influence. So they leave Erdogan alone with the Kurds as they see it as no business of theirs.
Sunni Turkey has been instrumental in the build up of Sunni ISIS. They let ISIS fighters and supplies freely transit through to Syria. Why? Because they hate the Shia Assad. Talk about doing a deal with the devil.
They are using the same tactics against the Kurds. Why? Because they hate the Shia Kurds.
Turkey is playing both ends agains the middle. They let us use their bases to attack ISIS. Then they attack our ally the Kurds. They provide just enough support to our efforts to pave the way to attack the Kurds. Meanwhile, we provide some support to the Kurds as a bandaid for Turkish assaults. Folks, this is just plain nuts.
ISIS can never be defeated while this sordid convoluted strategy is in place. For some unknown reason, we allow Turkey to go on its anti Kurd rampage in exchange for something. What is that something?
Everyone is using everyone else. Certainly, the PKK has done its share of evil deeds. But that in no way justifies any alliance, passive or active, with the likes of ISIS. Our inaction on this issue is essentially an indirect endorsement of it.
This nation stands for something more than political arrangements. No nation that stands with ISIS in any capacity should be allowed to stand with us. Turkey will soon regret their dealings with the ISIS devils in their fanatic quest to crush the Kurds. ISIS respects nothing but the blade.
They are using the same tactics against the Kurds. Why? Because they hate the Shia Kurds.
Turkey is playing both ends agains the middle. They let us use their bases to attack ISIS. Then they attack our ally the Kurds. They provide just enough support to our efforts to pave the way to attack the Kurds. Meanwhile, we provide some support to the Kurds as a bandaid for Turkish assaults. Folks, this is just plain nuts.
ISIS can never be defeated while this sordid convoluted strategy is in place. For some unknown reason, we allow Turkey to go on its anti Kurd rampage in exchange for something. What is that something?
Everyone is using everyone else. Certainly, the PKK has done its share of evil deeds. But that in no way justifies any alliance, passive or active, with the likes of ISIS. Our inaction on this issue is essentially an indirect endorsement of it.
This nation stands for something more than political arrangements. No nation that stands with ISIS in any capacity should be allowed to stand with us. Turkey will soon regret their dealings with the ISIS devils in their fanatic quest to crush the Kurds. ISIS respects nothing but the blade.
28
Kurds are not Shia. Kurds identify themselves with their ethnicity, language, and culture not religion. They are a multi religious ethnicity.
2
Simplify things but do not oversimplify. I found the following lecture given by Dr. Sinan Ciddi of Georgetown on Oct 15, 2015 at Cornell's OTSI quite educating. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cQ1_I9wcZ2U
1
Turkey is at the very least the chief logistical support for ISIS. That they are a member of NATO makes the entire situation appear to be farcical, but then again Saudi Arabia and Qatar are using ISIS as a surrogate for Sunni ambitions, and the United States is using all of them including ISIS for its own strategic objectives. Iran is still the main target of America in spite of the fact that Saudi Arabia is the font of Sunni jihadi terror, which we profess to be at war with, but clearly are not really.
2
Perhaps Erdogan's toleration and use of ISIS will eventually resemble to Pakistani Taliban.
2
Erdogan was done much more than show a "benign neglect" for the fanatics of ISIS.
He has allowed Turkey to be used as the first stop for wanna be jihad's from around the globe.
He has allowed them to transit, at their leisure, Turkey, on their way to the killing fields.
Turkey is still the main buyer of stolen Iraqi and Syrian oil, the lifeblood of
ISIS.
He has allowed the Turkish coast to be the embarkation point for the millions headed to a possibly soon destabilized Europe.
He has allowed Turkey to be used as the first stop for wanna be jihad's from around the globe.
He has allowed them to transit, at their leisure, Turkey, on their way to the killing fields.
Turkey is still the main buyer of stolen Iraqi and Syrian oil, the lifeblood of
ISIS.
He has allowed the Turkish coast to be the embarkation point for the millions headed to a possibly soon destabilized Europe.
3
Here's Erdogan's current NATO (read USA) assignment regarding the role of ISIS. Headline - Death trafficking: ISIS militants are transported through Odessa to Donbass
Summary: "With the beginning of operations of the Russian military-space forces in Syria, militants of the "Islamic state" began to leave the combat zone in an organized manner and get transported via Turkey to Ukraine and further to Mariupol. Only in the last two weeks, this traffic amounted to about three thousand people. Its curators are U.S. citizens. Goal — joint "Ukrainian-terrorist" offensive on Donbass and the sweep of people's republics."
Alexander Maslov
Fort Russ
Fri, 30 Oct 2015
Summary: "With the beginning of operations of the Russian military-space forces in Syria, militants of the "Islamic state" began to leave the combat zone in an organized manner and get transported via Turkey to Ukraine and further to Mariupol. Only in the last two weeks, this traffic amounted to about three thousand people. Its curators are U.S. citizens. Goal — joint "Ukrainian-terrorist" offensive on Donbass and the sweep of people's republics."
Alexander Maslov
Fort Russ
Fri, 30 Oct 2015
2
Not happening. The Ukrainians and the Russians are fiercely nationalists. The Ukrainians will not ally themselves with people that they consider, will take their country away from them, and turn it into Chechnya.
Ergogan is a racist, by my own Turkish friends' standards, with his claims of Muslims discovering America among the first to come to mind. Only a erson of the Islamic faith could have achieved such an act?
http://me.richtrek.com/2014/08/isis-ego-poison-and-destruction-is.html here is more on the ego and poison of ISIS. i enjoyed the column
http://me.richtrek.com/2014/08/isis-ego-poison-and-destruction-is.html here is more on the ego and poison of ISIS. i enjoyed the column
The brutal Assyrians are back in the form of ISIS. Democracies are easily defeated by this extreme brutality
What to do? visit the past
http://www.algemeiner.com/2014/11/07/the-assyrians-kurds-and-the-jews/#
Wow!
Roger Cohen with nerves of steel is the new york times James Bond
What to do? visit the past
http://www.algemeiner.com/2014/11/07/the-assyrians-kurds-and-the-jews/#
Wow!
Roger Cohen with nerves of steel is the new york times James Bond
Thank you for this thoughtful column. The position of the US is complex in relation with Erdogan's government and we should be thinking carefully about our alliance with yet another dictator in this region unwilling or perhaps even unable (due to crimes he does not want to have uncovered?) to leave power. The Ankara bombing of the HDP was a horror that should have unleashed deep shame in the AKP, but they seem to be shameless at this point. How long will the US tolerate the hypocrisy and cruelty of the AKP in its implicit use of ISIS to accomplish its goals?
3
I'd like to think that Erdogan is merely engaging in benign neglect, but his unwillingness to allow YPG push to their west and link up with the western Syrian enclave (so unwilling he bombed them) even though it would effectively cut ISIS's link to Turkey and solve his problem with infiltration by ISIS, make the US happy, and slow down the influx of refugees strongly suggests to me that he is a de facto supporter of ISIS. And thus Turkey is functioning as the pipeline for the flow of weapons, money and supplies (not to mention jihadis) to ISIS - not to mention the conduit for the sale of ISIS's oil output. Which is likely why the US is unable to cut ISIS off from international support.
He's not just ignoring the situation, he is very likely playing a double game. Obviously, he's not going to want to admit this, since he's a member of NATO and NATO itself is at war with both Al Queda and ISIS. But that doesn't mean he isn't doing it.
In this regard, I think he is playing the exact same game the ISI is playing with the Taliban in Pakistan and Afghanistan. It isn't helping at all for Erdogan to decide to emulate the very worst habits of Vladimir Putin.
(Of course he hates the Kurds as well, but as much of that is about keeping the Turkish public on his side as anything else. YPG doesn't pose any kind of threat to Turkey at all - except in that they're a threat to ISIS.)
Lovely situation we have got here.
He's not just ignoring the situation, he is very likely playing a double game. Obviously, he's not going to want to admit this, since he's a member of NATO and NATO itself is at war with both Al Queda and ISIS. But that doesn't mean he isn't doing it.
In this regard, I think he is playing the exact same game the ISI is playing with the Taliban in Pakistan and Afghanistan. It isn't helping at all for Erdogan to decide to emulate the very worst habits of Vladimir Putin.
(Of course he hates the Kurds as well, but as much of that is about keeping the Turkish public on his side as anything else. YPG doesn't pose any kind of threat to Turkey at all - except in that they're a threat to ISIS.)
Lovely situation we have got here.
2
"What does Erdogan — in theory a key American ally leading a NATO state — see in the knife-wielding jihadis of the Islamic State? "
If he had said he considered ISIS as the junior varsity, would that have been better? Worthy of a Nobel Peace Prize?
If he had said he considered ISIS as the junior varsity, would that have been better? Worthy of a Nobel Peace Prize?
Mr. Erdogan has been upfront from the very beginning about his duplicity, which Mr. Cohen ably describes. In Turkey, Kurds trump ISIS, regardless of what the US or the West thinks. The problem is not Mr. Erdogan but the US and the West, who allow this type of attitude from a member of NATO.
But then Mr. Erdogan is not alone. A front-page article of the NYT today tells us that the Arab members of the coalition prefer to attack Houthis in Yemen to prevent Iranian hegemony than to attack ISIS.
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/11/08/world/middleeast/as-us-escalates-air-w...®ion=top-news&WT.nav=top-news
And the reaction of the US and the West??
If Mr. Erdogan can get away with it, he will continue to do what he, and not Mr. Cohen, thinks is best for Turkey. He will attack Kurds who are the linchpin of the drive against ISIS. That is not Mr. Erdogan's concern.
Perhaps the US might explain things a little better to its allies Saudi Arabia and Turkey.
But then Mr. Erdogan is not alone. A front-page article of the NYT today tells us that the Arab members of the coalition prefer to attack Houthis in Yemen to prevent Iranian hegemony than to attack ISIS.
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/11/08/world/middleeast/as-us-escalates-air-w...®ion=top-news&WT.nav=top-news
And the reaction of the US and the West??
If Mr. Erdogan can get away with it, he will continue to do what he, and not Mr. Cohen, thinks is best for Turkey. He will attack Kurds who are the linchpin of the drive against ISIS. That is not Mr. Erdogan's concern.
Perhaps the US might explain things a little better to its allies Saudi Arabia and Turkey.
3
We must arm and support the Kurds and do so now. They seem like honest actors who want their own homeland, and unlike the Palestinians, are not hurting anyone in the process (except for a very small radical band inside Turkey). It's time to separate the good guys from the bad guys and help the good guys win. The fact that the Kurds are almost single-handedly containing ISIS is another reason to support them.
2
“Erdogan is scared and he deals with it by making everyone more scared than he is,”
Same with Putin. Both have a lot to answer for the Syrian mayhem, and they are getting more enraged by the day, while their direct and indirect victim's corpses keep piling up. Let's hope Hillary will set them both straight.. although nobody would want Russia and Turkey to turn into worse versions of today's Syria. These two psychopaths are - unfortunately - the Devil we know.
Same with Putin. Both have a lot to answer for the Syrian mayhem, and they are getting more enraged by the day, while their direct and indirect victim's corpses keep piling up. Let's hope Hillary will set them both straight.. although nobody would want Russia and Turkey to turn into worse versions of today's Syria. These two psychopaths are - unfortunately - the Devil we know.
American comment about Turkey tends to be distorted, severely. There are several factors.
First, there is intense Israeli hostility toward Turkey. Yes, Turkey played a part in that tension, but shooting Turks, and insulting their Ambassador then gloating about it on TV, are examples of Israel behaving very badly. Yet our media and perceptions are near entirely one sided in that.
Second, the Kurds are a current pet of the people who want the US deeper in the Middle East wars. Their small self defense militias are presented as a magic solution which with just a little help could do all that the full weight of the US military for a decade failed to do. That is fantasy.
Those same people were against the same Kurds (and Armenians) back when Turkey and Israel got along, and Israel helped Turkey attack the Kurds. These two things are thus linked.
In addition, we have Islamophobia being fed here. Erdogan is Islamic, therefore bad. Everything about him that is Islamic is "bad." That his voters like so much of that, and vote for him because of it, isn't "democracy" and does not matter to this crew, as their own values differ from Turkish majority voters.
It does not matter that we were appalled by the Turkey that went before, of the dictators and their "Midnight Express" prisons, nor that they jailed Erdogan himself, and his movement is what ended that hence his start in power.
Erdogan is far from perfect, but our media presentation of Turkey is distorted out of all reality.
First, there is intense Israeli hostility toward Turkey. Yes, Turkey played a part in that tension, but shooting Turks, and insulting their Ambassador then gloating about it on TV, are examples of Israel behaving very badly. Yet our media and perceptions are near entirely one sided in that.
Second, the Kurds are a current pet of the people who want the US deeper in the Middle East wars. Their small self defense militias are presented as a magic solution which with just a little help could do all that the full weight of the US military for a decade failed to do. That is fantasy.
Those same people were against the same Kurds (and Armenians) back when Turkey and Israel got along, and Israel helped Turkey attack the Kurds. These two things are thus linked.
In addition, we have Islamophobia being fed here. Erdogan is Islamic, therefore bad. Everything about him that is Islamic is "bad." That his voters like so much of that, and vote for him because of it, isn't "democracy" and does not matter to this crew, as their own values differ from Turkish majority voters.
It does not matter that we were appalled by the Turkey that went before, of the dictators and their "Midnight Express" prisons, nor that they jailed Erdogan himself, and his movement is what ended that hence his start in power.
Erdogan is far from perfect, but our media presentation of Turkey is distorted out of all reality.
10
You are misguided, Erdogan is an Islamist, it's in the public domain that he harbours most Egyptian Muslim Brotherhood as well as other extremist groups. Already Turkish economy is hitting the rock bottom because of sultan Edogan's repressive policy.
1
It's unclear why you go out of your way to drag Israel into this. Erdogan's decision to use Israel as a convenient public pinata to gain favor in the Arab world was his choice - and a poor one - but it does not in any way inform US attitudes toward Turkey or the way Americans view Erdogan. His authoritarian practices speak for himself. His crushing of political dissent, his murderous attacks against Kurds in Iraq and Syria are on him. You can blast the US media all you like but they have done a fair job reporting the facts on the ground. It sounds like you have an agenda to push - but it doesn't make for a clear-headed understanding of what's happening in Turkey. You ought to read the NYTimes coverage more regularly before blasting it as biased.
1
An excellent analysis with a wonderful sense of foreboding. Erdogan has played a successful double game so far but so far does not represent the conclusion and it looks bloody and getting bloodier.
25
"That in turn has raised the specter of a border-straddling Kurdistan, the nightmare of the Turkish republic."
Why would "Kurdistan" be a nightmare for Turkey? Why would it not be a peaceful solution?
Why would "Kurdistan" be a nightmare for Turkey? Why would it not be a peaceful solution?
29
Why wasn't the Southern Confederacy a peaceful solution for the US slavery problem? Same reason.
8
Not its not. You forget the Kurds have been promised their own nation state since 1919 - it is time they got it. The PKK is just struggling to get what is due them and was agree in 1919. Erdogan is trying to stop this just like he refused to acknowledge the Armenian Genocide.
It would have been, and I would argue that the North would be far better off with the Southern Confederacy than it is without it. (of course, the parallel ends with the plight of the slaves in the confederacy since the fate of the Turkish population in would-be kurdistan is clearly very different)
Thank you, Roger Cohen. It is difficult to watch the Kurds be attacked again (and again, as they have been for decades). Erdogan is a problem. A big one. You explain it well. Don't know how you stay vertical under all the pressure you see and feel. Great reporting.
38
How depressing that the country that was always touted as the moderate, modern majority-Muslim state is becoming so drawn towards fundamentalist intolerance and jihadism.
Will Turkey eventually degenerate into the next Pakistan, attempting to placate the US with tactical help all the while aiding and abetting the jihadis?
Let's at least not repeat our role of looking the other way as we did with Pakistan.
I think we should vocally and aggressively support the Kurds in achieving a homeland in Iraq and Syria; we could have all the bases we wanted in Kurdestan!
Will Turkey eventually degenerate into the next Pakistan, attempting to placate the US with tactical help all the while aiding and abetting the jihadis?
Let's at least not repeat our role of looking the other way as we did with Pakistan.
I think we should vocally and aggressively support the Kurds in achieving a homeland in Iraq and Syria; we could have all the bases we wanted in Kurdestan!
48
It is a worry that ISIS is making inroads in Turkey because of the governments mishandling of the problem. It will be yet another headache for the Turks and the Turkish government. However, the main threath to Turkey comes from PKK. That is reason Turkish government is focusing on PKK. ISIS did not kill thousands of Turks and Kurds, not yet at least, but PKK did. ISIS did not fight against Turkish government for three decades, not yet at least, but PKK did.
What the Kurds should do is to denounce PKK, get rid of it and give 100% support to HDP. They should accept the sovereignty of the Turkish government and accept the Turkish constitution, and work from with in to improve their lives with peaceful means. Peaceful struggle will also bring modernization and industry to the south east of Turkey, which is much needed so the life of the local people might improve. Armed struggle and violence is preventing the area from industrialization. No government in the world would allow some militants kill its soldiers and police and get away with it and no government will make concessions to the individuals and groups who take up arms. What would the American government do if a small Texas town is taken over by one of the independence-minded Texas militia? Would the government say ohh well let them declare the town "freed region" (freed from US government)? This is absurd.
What the Kurds should do is to denounce PKK, get rid of it and give 100% support to HDP. They should accept the sovereignty of the Turkish government and accept the Turkish constitution, and work from with in to improve their lives with peaceful means. Peaceful struggle will also bring modernization and industry to the south east of Turkey, which is much needed so the life of the local people might improve. Armed struggle and violence is preventing the area from industrialization. No government in the world would allow some militants kill its soldiers and police and get away with it and no government will make concessions to the individuals and groups who take up arms. What would the American government do if a small Texas town is taken over by one of the independence-minded Texas militia? Would the government say ohh well let them declare the town "freed region" (freed from US government)? This is absurd.
17
When you are targeted by a government trying to eliminate your identity, you tend to organise yourself into resistance, who would have thought. Kurds were supposed to get their own state after WWI which did not happen. This is 100 years ago, a blink in history, in a context of an explosive ethnic region, n the context of a genocide.
You are talking about government as if it entails the same thing everywhere around the world. It does not. US and modern Europe forms of political organisation are not the same as institutions from Somalia, Pakistan, or even Turkey despite being given the same name. The US built a strong federal government overtime but I remember reading just a few weeks ago many stories about the confederate flag finally being removed from public buildings and racism in US society is still present at a structural level.
Being on the side of established order is a luxury.
You are talking about government as if it entails the same thing everywhere around the world. It does not. US and modern Europe forms of political organisation are not the same as institutions from Somalia, Pakistan, or even Turkey despite being given the same name. The US built a strong federal government overtime but I remember reading just a few weeks ago many stories about the confederate flag finally being removed from public buildings and racism in US society is still present at a structural level.
Being on the side of established order is a luxury.
I have lived in Turkey for six years, and, in fact, I agree. I understand the aspiration to have an independent Kurdistan carved from southeastern Turkey. However, it will only benefit the Kurdish people who live there. Many Kurdish people live in Western Turkey and their rights will not improve from an independent Kurdistan. In fact, their lives will become more difficult as travel and integration across the border become more limited. And an independent Kurdistan will do nothing for the fundamental problem of Turkey, which is a lack of respect for people who are different: Alevites, Kurds, Syriacs, Jews, Christians, atheists, gays, women, and then there is the secular/religious divide. Turks need to learn to respect individual's rights to be themselves.
8
While it is true that PKK fought against the Turkish government for three decades, they had laid down their arms for over 2 years until the fall back into conflict this spring, for which the current Turkish government is at least partly to blame.
But while I agree that the HDP is a much better representative of the Kurds, it is unrealistic to expect them to fully reject the PKK. In Iraq and Syria, Kurds are under attack, and are forced to take up arms to defend themselves. Because the borders are so porous, it is thus impossible to convince the Kurds to collectively disarm - there will always be veterans from the Syrian conflict returning to their hometowns in Turkey. And as long as the Kurds are armed, it will be tempting for them to react to perceived oppression with violence.
I'm not saying that it is morally right for them to do so, or that we should accept such behavior. But it is something which should be thoughtfully considered while planning out how to respond to the escalation in the Turkey-PKK conflict.
But while I agree that the HDP is a much better representative of the Kurds, it is unrealistic to expect them to fully reject the PKK. In Iraq and Syria, Kurds are under attack, and are forced to take up arms to defend themselves. Because the borders are so porous, it is thus impossible to convince the Kurds to collectively disarm - there will always be veterans from the Syrian conflict returning to their hometowns in Turkey. And as long as the Kurds are armed, it will be tempting for them to react to perceived oppression with violence.
I'm not saying that it is morally right for them to do so, or that we should accept such behavior. But it is something which should be thoughtfully considered while planning out how to respond to the escalation in the Turkey-PKK conflict.
Those who killed the two poluce officers were not PKK members and were not acting on PKK's behalf. Instead of bringing the perpetrators to justice, Erdogan ordered over 400 airstrikes against alleged PKK positions in both north and south Kurdistan. Too many ordinary citizens believe Turkish security forces are involved in major crimes which make Turkey a divided house and an unreliable ally. Thank you Mr Cohen for this informative piece.
9
Thats not correct. Immediately after the assassinations, official PKK spokesmen took credit for the killings. Only later when critics pointed out thqt the PKK had broken the cease fire with a series of murders did they try and back track with conspiracy theories blaming the Turkish deep state.
1
"Age-old" conflict between Turks and Kurds? More like since 1978.
And that conflict is between the Turkish State and PKK - separatist Kurds of communist ideology.
Even Selahattin Demirtas, the head of Turkey's pro-Kurdish party HDP, defines the conflict as one between State and citizens.
This is just another example of "conquer and divide" mindset when it comes to the Middle East. Divide one of the few functional countries in the region along ethnic lines.
The United States has already conquered two countries in the Middle East in the last decade, Iraq and Libya. Is it now Turkey's turn?
And that conflict is between the Turkish State and PKK - separatist Kurds of communist ideology.
Even Selahattin Demirtas, the head of Turkey's pro-Kurdish party HDP, defines the conflict as one between State and citizens.
This is just another example of "conquer and divide" mindset when it comes to the Middle East. Divide one of the few functional countries in the region along ethnic lines.
The United States has already conquered two countries in the Middle East in the last decade, Iraq and Libya. Is it now Turkey's turn?
2
The Kurds clearly have no voice at the U.N., the organization that allegedly protects ethnic minorities. No European NGOs demonstrating on their behalf, no liberals championing their cause. Interesting that Mr. Cohen is taking their side. Saving a few of them, I believe they are a peaceful, and beleaguered, people with a long history of persecution under the Ottomans, and beyond. Our own government will not help them, as this would further antagonize Erdogan.
Are the Russian bombers targeting them in Syria, too?
Are the Russian bombers targeting them in Syria, too?
2
Wasn't Mr. Erdogran working to tamp down Kurdish unrest by lowering the temperature and actively seeking to engage their community?
I don't follow Turkish events closely, but the blame for the apparently complete turnaround with regard to the Kurds seems, based on the preceding, very unlikely to fall entirely on Mr. Erdogan.
What have the Kurds been doing in the last few years to build or reduce goodwill with their Turkish countrymen?
If they have undercut Mr. Erdogan's outreach, then they have primarily themselves to blame.
Regardless, in any polity where the leader or a party finds its political fortunes declining, citing unrest by a minority with whom relations historically have been contentious, seems to be a fairly standard (if non-constructive for the "common good") course of action. If Mr. Erdogan has followed this approach, then he certainly shares his fair share of blame for Kurdish unrest. If Kurdish groups have used violence that Mr. Erdogan can cite to further his political fortunes, then they are only playing into his hands, in addition to hurting and killing their own countrymen.
I don't follow Turkish events closely, but the blame for the apparently complete turnaround with regard to the Kurds seems, based on the preceding, very unlikely to fall entirely on Mr. Erdogan.
What have the Kurds been doing in the last few years to build or reduce goodwill with their Turkish countrymen?
If they have undercut Mr. Erdogan's outreach, then they have primarily themselves to blame.
Regardless, in any polity where the leader or a party finds its political fortunes declining, citing unrest by a minority with whom relations historically have been contentious, seems to be a fairly standard (if non-constructive for the "common good") course of action. If Mr. Erdogan has followed this approach, then he certainly shares his fair share of blame for Kurdish unrest. If Kurdish groups have used violence that Mr. Erdogan can cite to further his political fortunes, then they are only playing into his hands, in addition to hurting and killing their own countrymen.
2
Also noteworthy is the fact that there are more journalists in prison in Turkey than in any other country in the world.
20
There are not many countries worth supporting in the Middle East right now. But Turkey and Kurdistan have been, comparatively speaking, more progressive societies than the Arab states, which have been failing for centuries and are spawning much of this mess. It is a tremendous shame that two potential forces for order and progress are fighting each other, rather than the focusing more exclusively on sealing off and preventing the disorder to their South.
3
Erdogan has always been the same. Since the beginning this was his goal. Those who made warnings were ignored. This is the outcome. If only the opposition were taken seriously years ago things would be different. He is a dictator and it is always my way no other way.
The only reason he attacks the Kurd is that they no longer support him. This will only get wors unless a miracle happens.
The only reason he attacks the Kurd is that they no longer support him. This will only get wors unless a miracle happens.
5
The Turkish people didn't see any viable option to AKP in this election and chosen the lesser evil. What this article and HDP cannot explain is why the Kurdish-backed HDP lost more than 20% of its votes.Forcing Turks to act against their own interest is not going to help for obvious reasons, and bashing Turkey senselessly sounds suspicious. There must be a comprehensive plan to remove all terror groups (inc. PKK, ISIS, Esad, Iranians, Russians, etc.) from the area and beyond.
2
national security is the biggest priority for everyone. if you have an insurgency inside the country, you can hardly partner with them to quash an outside insurgency. why is it so difficult to understand that. The US is an unreliable ally for Turkey, so it acts in its own (and the ruling party's) best interest.
9
"It won't be easy."
Cohen's implicit assumption is that the US must be part of this war. But the Turkey that Mr Erdogan has now made is not a country the US should be dealing with. Neither are any of the other countries in the Middle East.
The Americans are going to learn to stand off from the Arab and South Asia worlds and let the parties fight it out no matter how awful the human rights provocations prove to be. Human rights interventions are not an invitation to amelioration but rather to a doom loop of making things worse.
The Muslim world is a world that does not admit to western-led humanitarian intervention. A very cold judgment but not nearly as cold and hard as the emerging public opinion in American and Europe. The "hard rain is a' going to fall" season is upon the world.
Cohen's implicit assumption is that the US must be part of this war. But the Turkey that Mr Erdogan has now made is not a country the US should be dealing with. Neither are any of the other countries in the Middle East.
The Americans are going to learn to stand off from the Arab and South Asia worlds and let the parties fight it out no matter how awful the human rights provocations prove to be. Human rights interventions are not an invitation to amelioration but rather to a doom loop of making things worse.
The Muslim world is a world that does not admit to western-led humanitarian intervention. A very cold judgment but not nearly as cold and hard as the emerging public opinion in American and Europe. The "hard rain is a' going to fall" season is upon the world.
9
Turkey has been playing the game of Empire ever since it was de-throned more than a century ago. Let's not forget the Armenian genocide, to which the Kurdish supression is another chapter in its long tumble into the cellar of history. ISIS will go the way of Pol Pot, and Turkey will still be the sick man of Europe. The current US Administration did not create or even abet the current cesspool that has been brewing on the shattered Ottoman Empire. That process has been a 150 year ride to ruin, and while the column is spot on and points the finger at what is really going on with ISIS, and correctly puts the blame on Erdogan, no intervention can solve things.
9
The brutality of the murderers from Turkey and the Islamic State, demonstrate the evil side of organized religion when it veers into fundamentalism, which closes minds and feeds hatred.
Erdogan is an evil ruler, but he is not a threat to America. Still, Turkey should be expelled from NATO. Turkey has become a bad country.
The Middle East is a cesspool, but it is not the responsibility of the United States. We should remove all troops from that region, and tend to our other and numerous problems.
Erdogan is an evil ruler, but he is not a threat to America. Still, Turkey should be expelled from NATO. Turkey has become a bad country.
The Middle East is a cesspool, but it is not the responsibility of the United States. We should remove all troops from that region, and tend to our other and numerous problems.
20
A couple of years ago when Erdogan decried the laughter of women in public spaces as "unseemly", how prescient he was . In the ever more authoritarian and repressive regime he has created, laughter now seems unseemly by women or men.
14
If these groups are threatening to destabilize Turkey, one is left wondering what is it about the current Turkish society or governance that makes it so fragile? Rather than seeing enemies from the outside as forces of evil, maybe Turkey should look on the inside and say how do we provide an environment so groups that they now feel threatened by are impotent, not because of a lack of firepower, but because of a lack of interest.
3
When the United States invaded Iraq, it was predictable that increased Kurdish nationalism would cause problems for Turkey. That's one of the many reasons why it wasn't a good idea.
In the longer run, the problems in Turkey will have to be addressed by Germany and the other European powers, which have the actual responsibility of dealing with the emigrants and refugees from this region. The role of the United States is waning, especially since most of its Presidential candidates now make Erdogan look like a beacon of tolerance and reason. What, exactly, do the proponents of further U.S. involvement believe this country has to offer?
In the longer run, the problems in Turkey will have to be addressed by Germany and the other European powers, which have the actual responsibility of dealing with the emigrants and refugees from this region. The role of the United States is waning, especially since most of its Presidential candidates now make Erdogan look like a beacon of tolerance and reason. What, exactly, do the proponents of further U.S. involvement believe this country has to offer?
7
Erdogan has always turned a blind eye towards Jihadist and even offered them sanctuary. He routinely left the border between Syria and Turkey open and jihadist freely passed back and forth. He provided medical care for wounded Jihadist, he gave them houses/tents to rest in. The Jihadist openly trained in Turkey and acquired arms there.
Erdogan only notices Jihadist when it is to his advantage to notice them. But don't forget the AKP is just another branch of the Muslim Brotherhood.
If Turkey did not have that airbase, Incirlik, they would be treated differently. Remember the US so badly wanted to use the airbase that they turned a blind eye to TUrkey's attacks on the Kurds. There was no condemnation of the Violence cause by Erdogan against political opponents as the US wanted the us of the Airbase and just plain overlooked it.
The US should be ashamed of itself for overlooking Erdogan's brutality so it can use an airbase. To Obama the airbase is more important than the rights of protesters.
Erdogan only notices Jihadist when it is to his advantage to notice them. But don't forget the AKP is just another branch of the Muslim Brotherhood.
If Turkey did not have that airbase, Incirlik, they would be treated differently. Remember the US so badly wanted to use the airbase that they turned a blind eye to TUrkey's attacks on the Kurds. There was no condemnation of the Violence cause by Erdogan against political opponents as the US wanted the us of the Airbase and just plain overlooked it.
The US should be ashamed of itself for overlooking Erdogan's brutality so it can use an airbase. To Obama the airbase is more important than the rights of protesters.
17
It's time to tell Turkey that have but two choices: Either follow the leadership of the West and halt their dream of genocide against the Kurds, or become the Russian puppet they threaten to be whenever they fell the pressure of requests from civilization. If they choose to become the Russian puppet, make it clear all commerce will be closed to them.
6
Turkey did try to join the European Union. France and the Vatican helped keep them out
1
Wishful thinking. The West needs Turkey too much. If they didn't, Turkey might behave differently. In the current tensions of the Levant, Turkey is in the driver's seat. Perhaps if the driver was not Erdogan, you would be happy? Regardless, closing commerce to Turkey would pose a huge economic threat to the countries of the Black Sea, Middle East and European Union. Why cut off your nose to spite your face?
I find it strange that just around the 1st election this year HDP started to become very popular among the International media, it seems to me that they are trying to paint HDP and PKK as the underdog whom have been wronged.
well in reality I know from second hand experience that the PKK has escalated its activities around the same time, which is ranging from raiding police HQs, burning public property,to burning property belonging to Turkish or Kurdish people whom don't support PKK or HDP cause.
Actually my friend's father while travelling from eastern Turkey to Istanbul, he got stopped by PKK and managed to be released only because he had some local connections that put in a good word for him, while others were not very lucky and were taken hostage.
I am not trying to vindicate the government or something, I personally do not like what is going on in Turkey but looking from one side seems too shallow. On the other hand there are communities that Turkish and the Kurdish are living peacefully . As a Turk I have lots of Kurdish friends and that difference never ever mattered among us.
Also I find it a little strange that suddenly most of what ISIS is doing is indirectly blamed on Turkey, or its government. In the first place the whole reason why there is such a huge mess in the middle east is due to weapons of mass destruction which could not be found and I apparently lack of democracy.
I think ISIS needs some first hand democracy
well in reality I know from second hand experience that the PKK has escalated its activities around the same time, which is ranging from raiding police HQs, burning public property,to burning property belonging to Turkish or Kurdish people whom don't support PKK or HDP cause.
Actually my friend's father while travelling from eastern Turkey to Istanbul, he got stopped by PKK and managed to be released only because he had some local connections that put in a good word for him, while others were not very lucky and were taken hostage.
I am not trying to vindicate the government or something, I personally do not like what is going on in Turkey but looking from one side seems too shallow. On the other hand there are communities that Turkish and the Kurdish are living peacefully . As a Turk I have lots of Kurdish friends and that difference never ever mattered among us.
Also I find it a little strange that suddenly most of what ISIS is doing is indirectly blamed on Turkey, or its government. In the first place the whole reason why there is such a huge mess in the middle east is due to weapons of mass destruction which could not be found and I apparently lack of democracy.
I think ISIS needs some first hand democracy
10
It seems pretty clear that the countries that have participated in the destabilization of Syria have made a *ghastly* mistake. The U.S. has been, and still is, a participant in this activity. It has been obvious for several years now that the only way to stop the increasing mess in that part of the world is to admit mistakes and acknowledge that the only sensible course of action is to support the current government of Syria to end the chaos. It may be that the Assad government is not palatable, but how does that justify the destruction of a society and the spreading chaos? Turkey and Saudi Arabia will not like this but in essence it is for their own good because it seems increasingly likely that they will be consumed by the very fires they have started and persist in fueling.
25
"... for their own good"? I find your comment patronizing (dare I say imperialistic). Perhaps you should trade places with an average Syrian, Turk, Kurd, or Saudi.
As for the US, the goal has always been to keep as much skin OUT of this game as possible. Blame former-President Bush all you want but we're not policing this mess on behalf of uncertain and reluctant allies.
By the way, I haven't heard much from operation IMPACT lately. How's that going? Maybe the CAF should take the lead on this one.
As for the US, the goal has always been to keep as much skin OUT of this game as possible. Blame former-President Bush all you want but we're not policing this mess on behalf of uncertain and reluctant allies.
By the way, I haven't heard much from operation IMPACT lately. How's that going? Maybe the CAF should take the lead on this one.
The U.S. should declare the Kurdish held areas a protected Kurdistan, and make it plain to Erdogan that an attack on them, is an attack on the U.S. it should also take the PKK off the list of terrorist organizations. The got the designation to [placate Turkey, and the current Turkish government is duplicitous. We saw that Erdogan was able to neutralize the Turkish army, which kept the Islamists from gaining power. Turkey is fast becoming an Islamic county. That is what Ataturk stopped, and the army was the protector of the secularism.
The Turkish government is continuing its persecution of minority groups, just as it did with the Armenians, and which it denies. They are only allowing the U.S. to use those air bases now, as ISIS will be infiltrating the country, recruiting disaffected Islamic dissidents.
Their greatest threat is themselves.
Turkey was our allay in the Korean War, they were happy to have us there when the USSR was threatening them, now they are fair weather friends.
The Turkish government is continuing its persecution of minority groups, just as it did with the Armenians, and which it denies. They are only allowing the U.S. to use those air bases now, as ISIS will be infiltrating the country, recruiting disaffected Islamic dissidents.
Their greatest threat is themselves.
Turkey was our allay in the Korean War, they were happy to have us there when the USSR was threatening them, now they are fair weather friends.
93
Well put! Clearly, you are well informed with enough courage to tell it like it is. More readers of your ilk should come forward. The treatment of the Armenians was a lot more than persecution: It was genocide as a number of Western countrirs have acknowledged it. Pity the US Congress is still pussyfooting so as not to offend the Turkish leaders.
7
Turkey is full of smart people who will work to identify Turkey's national interests and pursue policies that ensure those interests. Those interests are not necessarily the same as those of the US, which is very hard for some to understand. Turkey is an independent country. It is our job to work with the Turks, as with any other nation, to exploit those places where our interests coincide. The days of Turkey, or any other nation, taking orders from the US are long gone.
3
So you want support of Turkey to fight ISIS because you cannot topple ISIS yourself without spending huge resources and lives. When Turkey does not give you this support you will attack Turkey instead and use even more resources and lives to topple Erdogan and create another failed state and terrorist breeding grounf out of the most stable country in the region? Does this sound rational to you? Stop thinking that you can solve everything with force and try to understand and respect the will of the Turkish people.
"Syrian violence has seeped over the border."
Such violence seeps further and further. It won't stop with Turkey, it won't stop until the violence it seeps from is stopped.
This is the problem with "Long War" and fueling prolonged insurgencies as a strategy. It spreads, and keeps spreading.
Already the refugees have reached Europe, but they won't stop there, and it won't be only refugees that seeps onward.
The original mistake was regime change via prolonged insurgency. All else is consequence, including ISIS.
Such violence seeps further and further. It won't stop with Turkey, it won't stop until the violence it seeps from is stopped.
This is the problem with "Long War" and fueling prolonged insurgencies as a strategy. It spreads, and keeps spreading.
Already the refugees have reached Europe, but they won't stop there, and it won't be only refugees that seeps onward.
The original mistake was regime change via prolonged insurgency. All else is consequence, including ISIS.
77
As much of a scolding as this is for Turkey, it just does not go far enough. Turkey has changed at a fundamental level in the last decade, and it should be said so on the international stage to exert domestic pressure on Erdogan at home. An enterprising 2016 candidate might win some street cred by giving a full-throated condemnation of Turkey's behavior along the lines of:
"Turkey has played a cynical game against us, its allied on paper. They have done everything they can to support ISIS. They've allowed them to sell oil for money. They've allowed foreign fighters to travel to the Levant. They even bomb ISIS's enemy the Kurds, who's deaths and suffering are what Turkey has wanted all along. While the Kurds have been the ones doing the work of the global community, committing their foot-soldiers' lives to holding back the worst sort of nihilistic barbarism in our time, Turkey has prioritized killing Kurds and weakening them through proxy war by supporting ISIS. They've made clear that they will only cooperate with the global interest under duress, and will prioritize their own local vendetta (and manipulating local elections) where they believe our gaze doesn't reach.
It is time to say that Erdogan has changed Turkey for the worse. That he's isolating his country from the global community, and ideologically aligning himself and his country with the kind of extremism we now fight across our world. He's leading Turkey away from Europe and into isolation."
"Turkey has played a cynical game against us, its allied on paper. They have done everything they can to support ISIS. They've allowed them to sell oil for money. They've allowed foreign fighters to travel to the Levant. They even bomb ISIS's enemy the Kurds, who's deaths and suffering are what Turkey has wanted all along. While the Kurds have been the ones doing the work of the global community, committing their foot-soldiers' lives to holding back the worst sort of nihilistic barbarism in our time, Turkey has prioritized killing Kurds and weakening them through proxy war by supporting ISIS. They've made clear that they will only cooperate with the global interest under duress, and will prioritize their own local vendetta (and manipulating local elections) where they believe our gaze doesn't reach.
It is time to say that Erdogan has changed Turkey for the worse. That he's isolating his country from the global community, and ideologically aligning himself and his country with the kind of extremism we now fight across our world. He's leading Turkey away from Europe and into isolation."
129
Turkey is doing exactly what the United States wants Turkey to do.
4
Obama has been played all along by Turkey and aint gonna do anything about it. His technocrat foreign policy sentiments are not interested. TAPP! China! OMG! Legacy! Happy Pharma and Hollywood foreeevver.
So what is the point of the column to americans? Just more empty talk that studiously avoids telling relevant truths and staking out the hard choices. Aint nothing gonna be done. Aint no news here. No insights. Trallla.
So what is the point of the column to americans? Just more empty talk that studiously avoids telling relevant truths and staking out the hard choices. Aint nothing gonna be done. Aint no news here. No insights. Trallla.
12
George Bush got the US deeply involved in the middle east at a huge cost of American lives and money. The result was a disaster. Obama has cut back on our involvement, saving American lives and money. The middle east is still a disaster, but - as Bush proved - America can't fix it. That is something the people of the region will need to do for themselves. Unfortunately, none of the players in the region have any interest in resolving the conflict. Each one of them seems to believe that they can use the chaos to their ultimate advantage.
The last thing America should do is to once again send soldiers and money to advance the interests of one of our regional "allies", most of whom are acting against American interests.
The last thing America should do is to once again send soldiers and money to advance the interests of one of our regional "allies", most of whom are acting against American interests.
14
But I think these articles and discussions accentuate my take that what's going on there is far to difficult to sort out. Just who are our allies and enemies? What is the right (moral) side to fight?
For me the answer is the US really doesn't know. Consequently we should stay out of this mess and let these peoples settle things themselves. Have we not learned anything from our wars beginning with Vietnam? Obama has bowed to pressure enough to send more planes and troops (advisors) to just add to the killing. And the military/industrial complex that Eisenhower warned us of so many years ago, continues to add fuel to the fire. When will we ever learn?