"...On the other side are those who believe that it is more important to address the social, racial and economic factors behind crime.
'I actually think we should care why these individuals are committing these crimes. If we don’t know why then how will we prevent it? In other words, we need to understand the cause not just focus on the symptom,' Ned Malone wrote on newhilleast..."
++++
Decades of failed:
- policies on all levels of gov't;
- public education systems;
___
- attention to parenting
'I actually think we should care why these individuals are committing these crimes. If we don’t know why then how will we prevent it? In other words, we need to understand the cause not just focus on the symptom,' Ned Malone wrote on newhilleast..."
++++
Decades of failed:
- policies on all levels of gov't;
- public education systems;
___
- attention to parenting
1
The issue that no one will talk about is black crime. Making it harder to arrest, convict and hold black criminals just means there will be more of them on the street to do more crime. Why is this so hard for you liberals to understand?
9
When Guiliani went after the window washers it was discovered that most had outstanding warrants for felonies. Unfortunately, ignoring jay waking leads to street crime, period.
5
Th simple truth is that harsh punishments for non-violent crimes just serve to turn the individual into a hardened, violent, better trained criminal. Let's use our heads for something other than a place to hang our hats.
1
I live in Capitol Hill, smack in the middle where most of these crimes have taken place. This is a great article and I appreciate the author’s thoughtfulness in his overview of what’s happening in our neighborhood.
I don’t agree that the economy and unemployment rate are the reasons why someone breaks into a woman’s home and beats and rapes her, or why someone walking home from the Metro gets violently attacked by a group of kids. That’s a stereotype. The majority of the unemployed and poor aren’t criminals, and I would think they would be offended to be lumped in with this very small group of individual offenders.
Look, for the most part, a lot of these aren’t crimes of profit. They are violent and random. Beatings for no other purpose that to beat someone. If MPD and DC aren’t going to arrest and prosecute them, what kind of message is that? It’s OK to behave like an animal and law enforcement is going to ignore the law and let you go free?
Let’s worry about the whys later. I just want to be able to take out my trash, walk to the Metro, or get out of my car and go into the house without worrying that someone is going to violently attack me.
I don’t agree that the economy and unemployment rate are the reasons why someone breaks into a woman’s home and beats and rapes her, or why someone walking home from the Metro gets violently attacked by a group of kids. That’s a stereotype. The majority of the unemployed and poor aren’t criminals, and I would think they would be offended to be lumped in with this very small group of individual offenders.
Look, for the most part, a lot of these aren’t crimes of profit. They are violent and random. Beatings for no other purpose that to beat someone. If MPD and DC aren’t going to arrest and prosecute them, what kind of message is that? It’s OK to behave like an animal and law enforcement is going to ignore the law and let you go free?
Let’s worry about the whys later. I just want to be able to take out my trash, walk to the Metro, or get out of my car and go into the house without worrying that someone is going to violently attack me.
28
Under any economy structured to have little effective need for a sizable swath of the population, neither as producers nor as consumers, mass incarceration will always appear a necessary solution to those who do benefit from the economic order.
Poverty, hunger and crime are just the bottom end of the historic levels of economic inequality, decimating even the middle class, that have been permitted, even encouraged to develop in America, as a matter of deliberate bipartisan policy, since at least the Reagan Era.
Elites and the media are still puzzled, but there is good reason voters are no longer frightened at the gate by the candidacy of an avowed "Democratic Socialist," something unthinkable within even the Democratic party's recent history. Senator Sanders likely will not win, but his candidacy indicates a seismic shift in the attitudes of the American people toward American capitalism and the political order that serves it. One that will not soon be undone.
Poverty, hunger and crime are just the bottom end of the historic levels of economic inequality, decimating even the middle class, that have been permitted, even encouraged to develop in America, as a matter of deliberate bipartisan policy, since at least the Reagan Era.
Elites and the media are still puzzled, but there is good reason voters are no longer frightened at the gate by the candidacy of an avowed "Democratic Socialist," something unthinkable within even the Democratic party's recent history. Senator Sanders likely will not win, but his candidacy indicates a seismic shift in the attitudes of the American people toward American capitalism and the political order that serves it. One that will not soon be undone.
3
I lived in D.C. during the Reagan years. Capitol Hill was not safe then. People had bars on their windows. People got mugged. What was going on then, and what I'm sure is going on now, is the steady gentrification of the neighborhood, pushing the original residents further and further out. I guess if you live there you are accepting the risk. There is a difference between violent and nonviolent drug offenses. For instance, manufacturing, selling, distributing or mere possession. I believe that the President and others are talking about the long sentences for those that are not in the business, merely are caught up because they are using. Last week I read about the D.C. police chasing and taking a black college kid to the ground on Capitol Hill whose main offense was that he had opened the door to an ATM for a woman pushing a stroller. There's a video. It sure would be helpful if the police were more present in the community than just throwing people on the ground and tazing them. As for the guy who is punching people in the face, I am not excusing that behavior, but many people on the streets who engage in aggressive behavior have severe mental health issues, and the jails do about nothing to help them with medication, etc.
1
I find it interesting that you blame gentrification for the rise in crime in my neighborhood. First, gentrification isn't what's on in Capitol Hill. You might think it's gentrification, but it's really not.
Second, no one is pushing anyone out. This is still a very mixed economic community and a lot of people who have owned for decades are taking advantage of the rising housing costs and selling their homes to developers for a large profit. That's a choice, not a push.
Second, no one is pushing anyone out. This is still a very mixed economic community and a lot of people who have owned for decades are taking advantage of the rising housing costs and selling their homes to developers for a large profit. That's a choice, not a push.
6
Oh heavens! You are white and move into a majority black neighborhood, that has been known for its high-crime rate before you got there, and suddenly you are outraged and shocked to find violent crime there. The black people who are your neighbors have been trying for years to get rid of the crime. Perhaps you can speak with them, and ask them about what they have have been doing about it before you arrived. That just might be more effective than writing a column in the NYTimes and citing Mr. Coates for the purpose of discrediting his theories simply because they don't exactly fit your block's crime problem in DC. White panic has really run amok.
5
Of all the silly things Ta-Nehisi Coates has ever written, I don't think you can beat the quote that "incarceration increases your chances of being incarcerated again." Wow, that's like saying that a man's beating of his wife once increases his chances of beating her again! I'm sure it's true, but what does it mean?(It is racism that causes a black man released from prison to commit other crimes?) It's disturbing that liberals hail Coates as if he's some sort of great thinker. His rants aren't even original, people have been cranking out this type of racial stuff since at least the 70s. You could almost design software to spit out Coates' non-sequitur poetic-style nonsense.
18
Excellent piece by Tom. Most would agree with his conclusions on a common-sense basis, but he persuasively backs them up with statistics (as usual).
There will be a price to pay for less incarceration – even if it’s limited to non-violent crimes; and we’ll need to decide whether we’re willing to pay it. But the real problem that we see in crime rates increasing as we increase the number of “frequent fliers” that we DON’T incarcerate seems to me to be due partly to an addressable problem and partly to an intractable problem.
Other first-world nations find other ways to punish non-violent but predatory crime, and they tend to focus on community service, counselling and rapid release. They succeed because they better identify repeat-offenders for incarceration, and they do a better job generally of building a shared value structure in ALL their people, regardless of class. You can appeal to someone who shares your basic values, particularly if you offer alternatives to predatory behavior, as D.C. does with job programs; but someone who was never effectively taught those values, further isolated by a broken home and fewer people to “catch” the released felon, is far less likely to respond to attempts to change behavior. It really does become a matter of management for these.
And that’s the addressable part: we need to better identify the repeat-offenders for special treatment that includes incarceration, acknowledging the problems that we’ve seen with “three strikes” policies.
There will be a price to pay for less incarceration – even if it’s limited to non-violent crimes; and we’ll need to decide whether we’re willing to pay it. But the real problem that we see in crime rates increasing as we increase the number of “frequent fliers” that we DON’T incarcerate seems to me to be due partly to an addressable problem and partly to an intractable problem.
Other first-world nations find other ways to punish non-violent but predatory crime, and they tend to focus on community service, counselling and rapid release. They succeed because they better identify repeat-offenders for incarceration, and they do a better job generally of building a shared value structure in ALL their people, regardless of class. You can appeal to someone who shares your basic values, particularly if you offer alternatives to predatory behavior, as D.C. does with job programs; but someone who was never effectively taught those values, further isolated by a broken home and fewer people to “catch” the released felon, is far less likely to respond to attempts to change behavior. It really does become a matter of management for these.
And that’s the addressable part: we need to better identify the repeat-offenders for special treatment that includes incarceration, acknowledging the problems that we’ve seen with “three strikes” policies.
1
" In the 11 months since the passage of Prop 47, more than 4,300 state prisoners have been resentenced and then released. Drug arrests in Los Angeles County have dropped by a third. Jail bookings are down by a quarter. Hundreds of thousands of ex-felons have applied to get their previous drug convictions revised or erased.
Over the same period, however,
along with the successes have come other consequences, which police departments and prosecutors refer to as the “unintended effects”: Robberies up 23 percent in San Francisco. Property theft up 11 percent in Los Angeles. Certain categories of crime rising 20 percent in Lake Tahoe, 36 percent in La Mirada, 22 percent in Chico and 68 percent in Desert Hot Springs."
Successes - less criminals get arrested and more criminals go free.
“unintended effects” - more crime.
" along with the successes" - what successes??? What do they call a "success'?
Over the same period, however,
along with the successes have come other consequences, which police departments and prosecutors refer to as the “unintended effects”: Robberies up 23 percent in San Francisco. Property theft up 11 percent in Los Angeles. Certain categories of crime rising 20 percent in Lake Tahoe, 36 percent in La Mirada, 22 percent in Chico and 68 percent in Desert Hot Springs."
Successes - less criminals get arrested and more criminals go free.
“unintended effects” - more crime.
" along with the successes" - what successes??? What do they call a "success'?
11
We already ran this experiment on Wall Street in New York City and the business pages show a high rate of recidivism.
7
I am curious, where are your retirement funds invested. Mine and everybody I know has theirs invested on Wall Street and we do not want the government looting those funds under some guise of "too much greed." I want my investors to be as greedy as possible for my retirement funds. Do you not plan on retiring, or have you found a new place to invest for retirement?
3
I wonder how many of the Hill "liberals" support Obama's recent "trade deal" which will surely ship more jobs overseas? You can't support policies which aim to turn the US into a 3rd world society and then complain about poverty-associated problems such as crime while you're busy gentrifying a neighborhood.
5
We need to allow cops to shoot repeat offenders.
3
Here's a joke:
Two sociologists are walking down the street. They see a man, badly beaten, lying in the gutter. One sociologist turns to the other and says, "I feel bad for the person that did this."
I am generally very tolerant on social issues. Live and let live.
But how long can "society" be blamed when it's the same patterns of behavior by the same groups of people causing all the crime?
America is a beacon to immigrant communities. They do not look to blame others or "society" for there lot in life. They work hard, earn an education and strive to better the lives of their own and their children.
Violent crime should be punished. People should not have to live in fear in their own neighborhoods.
Liberals are wrong on this issue. It's plainly obvious to anyone paying attention.
Two sociologists are walking down the street. They see a man, badly beaten, lying in the gutter. One sociologist turns to the other and says, "I feel bad for the person that did this."
I am generally very tolerant on social issues. Live and let live.
But how long can "society" be blamed when it's the same patterns of behavior by the same groups of people causing all the crime?
America is a beacon to immigrant communities. They do not look to blame others or "society" for there lot in life. They work hard, earn an education and strive to better the lives of their own and their children.
Violent crime should be punished. People should not have to live in fear in their own neighborhoods.
Liberals are wrong on this issue. It's plainly obvious to anyone paying attention.
24
We need to get all the non-violent offenders out of jail and put the violent actors in without regard to age or circumstances. Prison, for a lot of these kids, will be the only structure they have ever had in their lives and if managed humanely and progressively some of these pathetic souls might be saved. BLM is only relevant if they agree that no one can break the law and get a pass. Sure BLM, police need to respect human life and the law they have taken an oath to protect but NO ONE who commits a violent crime should be treated woth compassion or leniency unless it's a suicide. People who blame a past they did not live through for acts they commit today are committing an insane act of bad faith.
5
This isn't really that difficult. It is true that our society is disordered and poorly run and that this disorder causes all manner of social problems. There are social causes driving individual behavior on a mass scale. But on the particular level, everyone knows it's wrong to punch anyone in the face for any reason other than self defense. How do we know? Because we don't like being punched in the face. "When you make an axe handle, the model is close at hand." We all carry a sound model of human decency within us, regardless of society's mores. We all know how to treat people and what is right and wrong. We can't let our sound desire to address social flaws to allow us to turn a blind eye to depraved behavior. If you commit a violent crime, you should do jail time.
8
Charming to hear even former Obama Administration officials going off on the poor, misunderstood violent criminals. What do you call a liberal who has been mugged? Answer: "A conservative."
12
I thought the recent changes were to reduce the number of people jailed for drug offenses. The crimes you site here are violent crimes and as such offenders should go to jail.
6
All the progressives need is just a little more gun control and maybe some new government programs to address violent crime. I can assure you that if than van load of future democratic voters would have tried to pull that off in an area that embraces the 2nd amendment they would have had their tail ends shot. We wont address the root cause of this type of violence-the destruction of the black family and the hijacking of their culture by thugs. Not politically correct you know.
8
Coates is nothing but another in a long line of apologists for Black bad behavior. Until that community takes responsibility for its own failings we will never solve this issue.
27
There are a lot of comments here talking about the distinct difference between violent and non-violent crimes and this whole problem can be solved simply by treating them differently. To me, the most important paragraph in the essay, documented the increase in more violent crimes as lesser crimes were decriminalized.
"Over the same period, however,
along with the successes have come other consequences, which police departments and prosecutors refer to as the “unintended effects”: Robberies up 23 percent in San Francisco. Property theft up 11 percent in Los Angeles. Certain categories of crime rising 20 percent in Lake Tahoe, 36 percent in La Mirada, 22 percent in Chico and 68 percent in Desert Hot Springs."
This is something we will need to figure out.
"Over the same period, however,
along with the successes have come other consequences, which police departments and prosecutors refer to as the “unintended effects”: Robberies up 23 percent in San Francisco. Property theft up 11 percent in Los Angeles. Certain categories of crime rising 20 percent in Lake Tahoe, 36 percent in La Mirada, 22 percent in Chico and 68 percent in Desert Hot Springs."
This is something we will need to figure out.
2
The person charged with punching the 69 year old in the face was, just today, arrested for punching a transit cop. The system works!
5
For the last time it is not either or. Of course you look at underlying causes of crime like poverty and broken families and poor education, we have been doing that for decades. By the way, even as activists claim they want these factors addressed, there is great resistance to change or hold people accountable for them. But even so, you cannot ignore the crimes themselves at the same time. Allowing someone to get off for shoplifting or other less violent crimes will embolden them to commit more crime if they suffer no consequence. Some criminals are desperate, and if man steals food to feed his family he should not go to jail, but most I would submit are very savvy and know how to exploit every loophole in the system and will do so if given the chance. You leave food out for a bear he will eat it, you put it way they keep walking, why temp them?
12
It costs a lot of money to incarcerate people. Why not take that money and put people into community service with some modest pay (even prisoners get paid for their work). There is plenty of graffiti to paint over, plenty of trash to pick up, plenty of leaves to be raked, park lawns to be mowed, etc. None of those things requires much in the way of skill, just some oversight. Put a GPS ankle band on the offenders for the duration of their service/sentence so that if they skip out they can be tracked down. Will it save money? Probably not. But maybe, just maybe it will get the offenders to think twice about repeating their bad behavior.
I think crime correlates to poverty.
But we haven't seriously been trying to fix poverty since Reagan told us that government wasn't the solution, it was the problem.
I am still waiting for the free-market to fix poverty.
In the meantime, I live in an upscale gated community and my life is good, nice restaurants, European vacations, etc.
But we haven't seriously been trying to fix poverty since Reagan told us that government wasn't the solution, it was the problem.
I am still waiting for the free-market to fix poverty.
In the meantime, I live in an upscale gated community and my life is good, nice restaurants, European vacations, etc.
There is crime, and there is violent crime. Anyone who commits a violent act needs to be punished. Period. Convictions of any kind should be cumulative. If someone reoffends and is found guilty, the sentence should be based on that crime, plus the previous crime(s).
This is a national problem of crime and homelessness and it needs to be addressed by huge sweeping programs. We need to start thinking outside the box. Businesses of all sizes need to provide jobs to those in need to give them a foot up. This would be in the interest of the needy, the business and the whole community. Details would have to be worked out, but there could be tax breaks, free insurance and additional schooling in community college or a trade school.
We need to both punish for crime and provide an alternative, not do one or the other.
This is a national problem of crime and homelessness and it needs to be addressed by huge sweeping programs. We need to start thinking outside the box. Businesses of all sizes need to provide jobs to those in need to give them a foot up. This would be in the interest of the needy, the business and the whole community. Details would have to be worked out, but there could be tax breaks, free insurance and additional schooling in community college or a trade school.
We need to both punish for crime and provide an alternative, not do one or the other.
Mass incarceration has become a hot political issue, but it shouldn't be used to further political fortunes at the expense of safety.
According to Nate Silver's FiveThirtyEight.com, releasing drug offenders will do little to address "mass incarceration." Releasing every drug offender in both federal and state prisons would reduce the rate by 14%.
*******
* "Releasing Drug Offenders Won’t End Mass Incarceration,
http://fivethirtyeight.com/datalab/releasing-drug-offenders-wont-end-mas...
According to Nate Silver's FiveThirtyEight.com, releasing drug offenders will do little to address "mass incarceration." Releasing every drug offender in both federal and state prisons would reduce the rate by 14%.
*******
* "Releasing Drug Offenders Won’t End Mass Incarceration,
http://fivethirtyeight.com/datalab/releasing-drug-offenders-wont-end-mas...
4
14% would be an excellent start. And it would do a whole lot for the 219,000 people now in prison who would be released.
I think we have to differentiate between drug crimes and violent crimes. It's basically the "War on Drugs" that has filled our jails with young black men. This is unnecessary. But crimes against property and especially crimes against people -- that's different. These crimes should still be penalized appropriately. In other words, free the cops from having to pursue minor drug arrests, which are largely victimless crimes, so that they can concentrate on pursuing crimes with real victims.
29
Don't be naive. Drug sale territories and street deals are enforced with guns. There is no non-violent drug crime with the possible exception a possession of an amount for personal use.
3
That's what I thought for many years. The data, however, shows that if you released every drug-related person of color from every prison in the US, the total prison population would decrease by less than ten percent.
It's so much more than one cause.....
It's so much more than one cause.....
The answer to the crime problem is not in modulating the length of prison sentences. Instead, the answer is two-fold:
First, crime is a condition of humanity. As long as there are people, there will be people who commit crimes. This is an immutable fact. Thus, we must accept that crime is essentially a management problem.
Second, crime is not a monolith. Crime has several different causes. For example, there are crimes of stupidity, there are black heart crimes, and there are crimes of mental defect. As a result, addressing the crime problem requires addressing the causes of crime.
I am not at all optimistic about this society ever making a meaningful effort to answer the crime problem. Too many people have a vested interest in the ham-fisted, tough-as-nails paradigm. However, if I were optimistic, I would look for two things to ameliorate the incidence of crime:
First, if we had more economic justice and a greater sense of community, we probably would see fewer people trying to "get over" on others. On the one hand, there would be less need for the proceeds of crime; and on the other, there would be a higher sense of loyalty to the group.
Second, the government, meaning the police, the prosecutors, and the courts, should have a broader array of tools to fashion a solution for those who do transgress. Of course, incapacitation for violent offender would be in the box. But so too should forgiveness for the young. We need to think as a community, for once.
First, crime is a condition of humanity. As long as there are people, there will be people who commit crimes. This is an immutable fact. Thus, we must accept that crime is essentially a management problem.
Second, crime is not a monolith. Crime has several different causes. For example, there are crimes of stupidity, there are black heart crimes, and there are crimes of mental defect. As a result, addressing the crime problem requires addressing the causes of crime.
I am not at all optimistic about this society ever making a meaningful effort to answer the crime problem. Too many people have a vested interest in the ham-fisted, tough-as-nails paradigm. However, if I were optimistic, I would look for two things to ameliorate the incidence of crime:
First, if we had more economic justice and a greater sense of community, we probably would see fewer people trying to "get over" on others. On the one hand, there would be less need for the proceeds of crime; and on the other, there would be a higher sense of loyalty to the group.
Second, the government, meaning the police, the prosecutors, and the courts, should have a broader array of tools to fashion a solution for those who do transgress. Of course, incapacitation for violent offender would be in the box. But so too should forgiveness for the young. We need to think as a community, for once.
Seventy percent of black babies are born into single parent families, which we know is the greatest predictor of a failed life-outcome
More welfare isn't the solution, because it is welfare that is exacerbating the problem.
The problem isn't poverty, because prior to Johnson's "Great Society" programs, a black child was about as likely as a white child to be born into a two parent family. Crime in black neighborhoods before the welfare push wasn't high.
Liberal policies have destroyed the black family and the black community. Increasing the dollars through liberal policies will only produce more of this problem, not less.
You have to take away the incentive for people to have babies that the taxpayer supports.
More welfare isn't the solution, because it is welfare that is exacerbating the problem.
The problem isn't poverty, because prior to Johnson's "Great Society" programs, a black child was about as likely as a white child to be born into a two parent family. Crime in black neighborhoods before the welfare push wasn't high.
Liberal policies have destroyed the black family and the black community. Increasing the dollars through liberal policies will only produce more of this problem, not less.
You have to take away the incentive for people to have babies that the taxpayer supports.
15
Mr. Edsall has written a compelling piece raising important issues, without being judgmental. It's a very difficult issue. It's easy to be sanctimonious when you live in a safe neighborhood. But we need to remember that those who can move to avoid crime will do so, while those who cannot will be forced to deal with it. The primary victims of crime in low income minority areas are low income minorities. They will bear the brunt of any unintended consequences of our experiment in lowering incarceration rates.
7
Crime as a social phenomenon does not exist on its own. It is intertwined with social policy, healthcare policy and history. I do agree with Coates that " Peril is generational for black people in America" but his position that "incarceration is our current mechanism for ensuring that the peril continues" is a bit of a simplified stretch for me. Incarceration of blacks in disproportionate numbers can, I think, be linked to the lack of inter-generational transfer of wealth for many generations, the off-shoring of many jobs as a result of trade policies, reduction in the ranks of civil service jobs, diminished availability of tuition assistance funds for higher education, blatantly biased laws related to crack versus powder cocaine use and other social and political factors that have created a bleak horizon for generations of black Americans. These forces have, over a long period of time, brought us to a place where incidence of crime in black communities is often higher than in communities of other ethnic groups. Because this is an explanation and not an excuse, it does not offer a way to disconnect crime and consequence.
Of the many things that are "ensuring that the current peril continues" bad policy seems like the best place to start to make long range lasting change. Reparations, which I consider to be a complex necessity, is a way that can be pursued more immediately.
Of the many things that are "ensuring that the current peril continues" bad policy seems like the best place to start to make long range lasting change. Reparations, which I consider to be a complex necessity, is a way that can be pursued more immediately.
1
Wait a second, juvenile records are not secret at all to the court or prosecutors as this material is contained in the FBI's NCIC database that is run by cops and the prosecutors routinely to obtain "rap sheets". Every rap sheet I get as a public defender has the defendant's entire criminal history including juvenile arrests and adjudications. The principal issue, however, with criminal justice reform relates to drug offenses, not violent crimes. Yes, the disintegration of society: the breakup of stable family structures, poor schools and unemployment are a big factor but that should not translate into tolerance for violent crime. California's passage of Proposition 47 last fall went a long way to mitigating this problem, reducing all drug possession offenses to misdemeanors except for those previously convicted of a small set of highly egregious offenses (sex crimes and "super strikes').
T.C. Quinn writes about "break-up of stable family structures".
Does he mean when plantation owners sold some family members to other farms ?
He mentions "poor schools".
Does he mean segregated & "seasonal attendance" at these so-called schools up to 1954 & "with all deliberate speed" up to the present ?
He also mentions unemployment.
Does he mean unpaid mandatory "employment" for people of color ?
Does he mention the absence of "asset building" due to "red-lining" & refusal to grant mortgages to returning WWII veterans of color ?
I think some of these commenters to Mr. Edsall's column are "blaming the victims".
Does he mean when plantation owners sold some family members to other farms ?
He mentions "poor schools".
Does he mean segregated & "seasonal attendance" at these so-called schools up to 1954 & "with all deliberate speed" up to the present ?
He also mentions unemployment.
Does he mean unpaid mandatory "employment" for people of color ?
Does he mention the absence of "asset building" due to "red-lining" & refusal to grant mortgages to returning WWII veterans of color ?
I think some of these commenters to Mr. Edsall's column are "blaming the victims".
True, we can't arrest our way out of the problem of young people who act out violently because they have no stake in the society in which they live. Jailing them won't change their relationship to our society, at least not for the better. But as Edsall points out, there is nothing the justice system can do to solve the problems with that relationship. The justice system's priority should be to protect victims by disabling their attackers. Jail certainly accomplishes that, if it does nothing else.
Yes, I am disturbed by the huge number of people we have incarcerated. Yes, I think there are better alternatives for non-violent offenders who are jailed for drug possession or other offenses that harm no one but themselves. But when it comes to violent offenders, I care much more about the future of their victims than about their future. We can best make the victims of violent crimes safe by making sure the offenders have no opportunity to do it again.
Yes, I am disturbed by the huge number of people we have incarcerated. Yes, I think there are better alternatives for non-violent offenders who are jailed for drug possession or other offenses that harm no one but themselves. But when it comes to violent offenders, I care much more about the future of their victims than about their future. We can best make the victims of violent crimes safe by making sure the offenders have no opportunity to do it again.
7
"..the loss of low-skill jobs; neighborhoods of concentrated poverty; the psychic damage inflicted by that poverty; and the long history of racial discrimination."
Excusing or writing off ill behavior as a result of historical or systemic hardships is the "bigotry of low expectations" at its worst. It assumes an entire group of people are simply unable to function at "normal" societal levels & should be thusly exempted from expectations to do so. Condescending, humiliating &, more than anything, unhelpful. To anyone, but more so the group in question.
As to Mr. Coates' paragraph on the incarceration of black men, replace "Incarceration" with "Committing a Crime" in the last 5 sentences & you'll arrive at the truth of the matter. Unjust incarceration certainly happens but, far more often than not, the committal of a crime precedes jail and/or prison time.
Excusing or writing off ill behavior as a result of historical or systemic hardships is the "bigotry of low expectations" at its worst. It assumes an entire group of people are simply unable to function at "normal" societal levels & should be thusly exempted from expectations to do so. Condescending, humiliating &, more than anything, unhelpful. To anyone, but more so the group in question.
As to Mr. Coates' paragraph on the incarceration of black men, replace "Incarceration" with "Committing a Crime" in the last 5 sentences & you'll arrive at the truth of the matter. Unjust incarceration certainly happens but, far more often than not, the committal of a crime precedes jail and/or prison time.
11
As they say, the plural of anecdote isn't data. Crime is on a decades long secular decline across the country. Furthermore all the evidence shows that lengthy sentences have no deterrent effect. Polling and juror studies also demonstrate an overwhelming national consensus (among regular folks more than among elites) that current sentences are far too draconian. But hey, Thomas Edsall found one neighborhood with some scared folks talking on the internet, so I guess the jury is still out.
As an effort to fear-monger support for continued mass incarceration, this piece is poorly argued, tragically misguided nonsense. As a demonstration of the way anecdotes and and paranoia (see also "Kate's Bill," Wille Horton) can drive terrible policy thanks to writers like Edsall, it's sadly informative.
As an effort to fear-monger support for continued mass incarceration, this piece is poorly argued, tragically misguided nonsense. As a demonstration of the way anecdotes and and paranoia (see also "Kate's Bill," Wille Horton) can drive terrible policy thanks to writers like Edsall, it's sadly informative.
2
I'm not an eleite and I favor long sentences for all criminals. It might not be a deterrent but it keeps those people off the streets and sometimes, that's enough.
1
I think the journalist here is setting up a false choice. There can be effective policing that also doesn't have overly harsh sentencing. Very few people are arguing for letting people who commit violent crimes not spend extended time in jail. It sounds interesting to imply that bleeding heart liberals are coming up against the consequences of their beliefs. But that's not what's going on here.
6
It isn't an either or proposition. We need an all of the above approach to have any significant impact on criminal behavior.
We can use law enforcement to combat criminal behavior today while investing in education, public safety and economic opportunity for future generations of youth before they turn to a life of crime. An all out effort will be costly but look at the long term benefits for everyone.
We can use law enforcement to combat criminal behavior today while investing in education, public safety and economic opportunity for future generations of youth before they turn to a life of crime. An all out effort will be costly but look at the long term benefits for everyone.
4
I think that the crime wave in capitol hill is more a symptom of the evolution of policing since 9/11. The police are not seen on on the streets unless they are responding to a crime. They do not patrol but rather respond to crimes as they happen. Most of these crimes would not happen if there was a visible police force actively patrolling neighborhoods, getting to know the residents that live there, and the people who just might be passing through. Community policing allows for the police to both reduce racial profiling and anticipate when and where a crime may happen. I can remember as a kid see the police cruising alleyways at night, checking to see if doors were locked and secured, and warning and educating resident's about crime and what they could do to avoid it. The militarization of the police does not support the proactive reduction of crime, it emphasizes a brute force response to crimes after they have happened which is of little or no benefit to the victim of a crime. So as crime increases on the hill, more criminals will be caught but there will be more victims too.....
5
This pendulum just swings back and forth. Once the unintended consequences outlined here by Mr. Edsall cause enough mayhem, then stricter enforcement will follow. I lived in Chicago from '89 to '99, and saw the benefits that flowed from greater enforcement of the law. Bleeding hearts will always try to make excuses for the pathological that walk among us. The only solution that works, that ever works, is to incarcerate the offenders and protect law abiding citizens.
At some point, certain segments of our society are going to have to accept the blame for what has gone wrong with their "little darlings" and face the fact that lousy and/or non-existent parenting is at the root of the great majority of this social decay. Society can't fix poor parenting.
At some point, certain segments of our society are going to have to accept the blame for what has gone wrong with their "little darlings" and face the fact that lousy and/or non-existent parenting is at the root of the great majority of this social decay. Society can't fix poor parenting.
15
"It’s difficult, if not impossible, to resolve these matters, either in the neighborhood itself or in the building that gives Capitol Hill its name."
So how do we address the "much broader failures of the system" when the very people we elect and who purport to serve us remain so ignorant of or in collusion with the people who own the businesses which have turned their backs on our nation for the benefit of personal profit?
Ultimately those who actually commit the indictable crimes have to take the blame for their action but there is a reason otherwise normal everyday people use the drugs and participate in "DC's Reign Of Terror"and that, as pointed out, is the lack of employment.
This lack is not due to a struggling economy rather to the earlier mentioned fact that the unnamed owners of businesses which formerly employed US citizens have off shored 3.2 million jobs between 2001 and 2013, 75% of which were in manufacturing.
According to to the U.S. Department of Labor 5.6 million jobs will have moved offshore by the end of this year.
In the 20 years since Mrs. Clinton's husband pushed through the enactment of NAFTA we have accumulated over $18o billion in trade deficits with Mexico and Canada, lost over a million of our own jobs and put another million Mexican farm laborers out of work.
This appears to me as a simple example of unmitigated greed trumping any sense of national fealty by both business and those we elect to serve us.
I hope we wake up.
So how do we address the "much broader failures of the system" when the very people we elect and who purport to serve us remain so ignorant of or in collusion with the people who own the businesses which have turned their backs on our nation for the benefit of personal profit?
Ultimately those who actually commit the indictable crimes have to take the blame for their action but there is a reason otherwise normal everyday people use the drugs and participate in "DC's Reign Of Terror"and that, as pointed out, is the lack of employment.
This lack is not due to a struggling economy rather to the earlier mentioned fact that the unnamed owners of businesses which formerly employed US citizens have off shored 3.2 million jobs between 2001 and 2013, 75% of which were in manufacturing.
According to to the U.S. Department of Labor 5.6 million jobs will have moved offshore by the end of this year.
In the 20 years since Mrs. Clinton's husband pushed through the enactment of NAFTA we have accumulated over $18o billion in trade deficits with Mexico and Canada, lost over a million of our own jobs and put another million Mexican farm laborers out of work.
This appears to me as a simple example of unmitigated greed trumping any sense of national fealty by both business and those we elect to serve us.
I hope we wake up.
4
It may be a question of the punishment. The same crime might warrant a short sentence for some, a longer sentence for most, and an indefinite sentence for the few who cannot function in our society. One man might need only 45 days’ motivation to turn his life around; another might need a few years of development before he is prepared to start over; others may never be ready. It is a difficult case to make that we should punish people differently, and it may be beyond the ability of prosecutors, judges, and jurors, even as we know that one size does not fit all.
2
The word crime means different things to different people. To senile old people that populate the grand juries, it is inhaling marijuana. After that idea is in their head, they love going to court and voting for convictions. The culprit is then advised to plead guilty to anything the prosecutor or police invent to avoid an expensive jury trial. They are not interested in justice but power and money. The truth is a big problem in America.
Stop insulting people. I'm over 60, not senile, and smoking pot is no big deal. But it it a fact of life that we have at any one time a 1% to 2% defective portion of the population that think they can make a criminal living. That percentage needs to be in jail, and some of them need to stay in jail.
6
"Law enforcement is where the much broader failures of the system end up," but it is the dysfunctional performance of Parole Boards across the country that do much to create the problem. A few states, Kentucky being the most advanced, regulate parole as an ongoing process of personal and social development, with key, multi-dimensional, transparent benchmarks, overseen by an expanded Parol Board; a Parole Board whose members include neurologists, cognitive specialists, mental illness experts, family developmental specialists, psychological forensic scientists, social workers, corrections experts, criminologists, and spokespeople for victim and family rights. Such-like expanded Parole Boards use science to track and evaluate evidence of an inmates crime risk and developmental progress. All the grand correctional reform measures now being contemplated by Congress, and in States legislatures, will fail until the culture of punishment that now governs the parole bureacracy is replaced by a intelligently regulated, science-based process of character reform overseen by public health experts.
4
Wow! Thanks for the warning. I have been nagging my wife about moving to Capitol Hill, a.k.a. Ward 6. The commute is terrible. My feelings are: great column but we need more data and/or need to be collecting more data. Especially data concerning their address and parents. So far this is a Pandora's Box.
We can solve this problem but we need to know more. We seem to jump to the word "incarcerate" too fast. I don't want the police and security people to be harmed but it seems to me that Ward 6 should be wary of strangers and the area it needs to be under very heavy surveillance. Ward 6 is the one neighborhood that is national security target #1, 24/7.
Thanks for the column and the excellent work that you do. Please try to get a plot on these crimes and more stats on who the violators are. We don't need to know their names we just need good stats on their Modus Operandi and their residential and occupational situation. There is a lot missing here but it should be the safest neighborhood in the United States.
We can solve this problem but we need to know more. We seem to jump to the word "incarcerate" too fast. I don't want the police and security people to be harmed but it seems to me that Ward 6 should be wary of strangers and the area it needs to be under very heavy surveillance. Ward 6 is the one neighborhood that is national security target #1, 24/7.
Thanks for the column and the excellent work that you do. Please try to get a plot on these crimes and more stats on who the violators are. We don't need to know their names we just need good stats on their Modus Operandi and their residential and occupational situation. There is a lot missing here but it should be the safest neighborhood in the United States.
1
There is a distinction here. Petty crime and long term incarceration of people that predominantly falls on the Black community. Gun violence in cities like St Louis, Milwaukee, and Chicago that impacts Blacks has shown that guns have a way of warping the psychology of a community. President Obama's useful efforts to bring down incarceration rates, especially among Blacks, is encouraging. The bourgeoisie of Capital Hill live in an urban area that is close to the urban poor. Muggers will always be a problem.
1
The impact on a child plunged into poverty and further marginalization because of an incarcerated father with a long sentence is the greater cost to all of us than a guy shoplifting $950. Do the math.
It's usually considered armed robbery, and not mugging, for a reason.
Getting a little to close to home eh, Mr. Edsall? I'm reading a lot of anecdotes about how those arrested are getting a slap on the wrist but not a lot of statistical evidence. This is in marked contrast to most of your writings. And by the way, did you bother to step out on the corner and ask any of these very kids that you are writing about their view on whether they see an uptick in crime or are many of them victims as well that are never heard or thought about until it happens to those who have gentrified the area? Did you think even once to see if young black boys are being brutalized, manhandled and shunned in those Capitol Hill schools, that are turning majority white, by the young white teachers in those schools, something I witnessed much too often. Please. Crime is on the uptick for whites and Capitol Hill whites are not immune. That fact and this article say nothing substantive about criminal justice reform.
3
" I'm reading a lot of anecdotes about how those arrested are getting a slap on the wrist but not a lot of statistical evidence"
Can you provide more than anecdotes for your assertions?
Can you provide more than anecdotes for your assertions?
2
I have no doubt that if one parses the situation in Edsall's neighborhood, one would find the crime situation highly complex, interwoven with the realities of nearby neighborhoods, and possibly anomalous.
That said, however, though I believe our criminal justice system is in need of a major overhaul, especially regarding incarceration policies (with more emphasis on rehab and less on jails), there is a certain amount of truth -- and much resonance -- to the saying that, "A liberal is a conservative, who has never been mugged."
That said, however, though I believe our criminal justice system is in need of a major overhaul, especially regarding incarceration policies (with more emphasis on rehab and less on jails), there is a certain amount of truth -- and much resonance -- to the saying that, "A liberal is a conservative, who has never been mugged."
2
I live in a much smaller city than Washington, D.C. but I understand the dynamics. Yes, probation for non-violent crimes, and a MUCH more serious look at sentencing and rehabilitation possibilities for those who commit crimes that hurt other people.
But the two sets of perpetrators are not completely unrelated. When a young person goes to jail for a non-violent crime, he will be mixing with much more violent offenders. And life after incarceration, with its now more limited options for education, employment and housing, becomes a breeding ground for rage and indifference to the lives of others.
I'm making no excuses, here, though. To the young man who killed the niece of a friend of mine in a drive-by shooting intended for someone else, to the young man who brutally beat a homeless person, to the young man-- well, I could go on and on, but I want to know: what were you thinking? And how can I be safe from you?
But the two sets of perpetrators are not completely unrelated. When a young person goes to jail for a non-violent crime, he will be mixing with much more violent offenders. And life after incarceration, with its now more limited options for education, employment and housing, becomes a breeding ground for rage and indifference to the lives of others.
I'm making no excuses, here, though. To the young man who killed the niece of a friend of mine in a drive-by shooting intended for someone else, to the young man who brutally beat a homeless person, to the young man-- well, I could go on and on, but I want to know: what were you thinking? And how can I be safe from you?
3
There is some wonderful irony here.
The progressive effete D.C. white professional gets to live with the consequence of his policies.
I would like to see more. Move all 10,000 Syrian refugees to D.C. Release all of the "minor" offenders in San Francisco.
Time to log off, toss your Starbucks' mug, and meet the cold hard reality of life.
The progressive effete D.C. white professional gets to live with the consequence of his policies.
I would like to see more. Move all 10,000 Syrian refugees to D.C. Release all of the "minor" offenders in San Francisco.
Time to log off, toss your Starbucks' mug, and meet the cold hard reality of life.
8
I would not relish being robbed or assaulted either.
I understand her anger.
But ...... has Ms. Holwil read Ta-Nehesi Coates book, Between the World & Me ?
Has Ms. Holwil worked in a psychiatric facility ?
I learned that one's behavior usually mirrors what one has seen modeled.
What model of adult male behavior have many of these adolescent muggers seen ?
I understand her anger.
But ...... has Ms. Holwil read Ta-Nehesi Coates book, Between the World & Me ?
Has Ms. Holwil worked in a psychiatric facility ?
I learned that one's behavior usually mirrors what one has seen modeled.
What model of adult male behavior have many of these adolescent muggers seen ?
3
Tie welfare payments to clean criminal records and good grades for minors in school and the rate of crime will go down. Or simply get rid of welfare and many of the people committing crimes will either have to work, steal, beg, or starve. I have enough faith to believe that most will choose work and take the jobs that "Americans won't take" today because they don't make economic sense.
And before you prattle on about the handicapped that is the reason private charity and benevolent associations existed before the welfare state.
And before you prattle on about the handicapped that is the reason private charity and benevolent associations existed before the welfare state.
6
The eagerness by which many wish to excuse the criminal behavior of others by blaming employment, poverty . . . and the usual laundry list of social ills underscores the simple fact that those committing those crimes are choosing to commit crimes. There are far more people in the exact same circumstances in those same neighborhoods not committing crimes who are proof that the real issue is a sense of lawlessness and entitlement.
If you had more low wage jobs would those who are roaming the streets to rape and robe and terrorize take those jobs? Would they be good employees? Would they be qualified to take higher paying jobs with their poor education and their choices to not participate in their own education?
Though the goals are laudable they are not realistic. Until you make individual choice a primary cause you will do nothing to prevent crime.
Single parent homes do not provide the guidance we need. How do we, as a society encourage marriage and fatherhood as a means of stemming this rising tide of violence? Restructuring assistance to reward marriage rather than single parent families would be a start.
It is time the sacred cows go back on the table if you want real structural reform to end mindless criminality.
If you had more low wage jobs would those who are roaming the streets to rape and robe and terrorize take those jobs? Would they be good employees? Would they be qualified to take higher paying jobs with their poor education and their choices to not participate in their own education?
Though the goals are laudable they are not realistic. Until you make individual choice a primary cause you will do nothing to prevent crime.
Single parent homes do not provide the guidance we need. How do we, as a society encourage marriage and fatherhood as a means of stemming this rising tide of violence? Restructuring assistance to reward marriage rather than single parent families would be a start.
It is time the sacred cows go back on the table if you want real structural reform to end mindless criminality.
11
This is much less perplexing than the article would suggest. Without regard to ethnicity, most children and adults practice immediate gratification unless and until delayed gratification becomes noticeably less costly or more presently desirable. Rich boys who get a regular check from dad don't look for a job with as much enthusiasm as poor boys whose lifestyle is not subsidized. Anti-social behavior that is accepted by peers and social workers or applauded by activists is less likely to obtain than if its practitioner is shunned by peers or punished (or segregated) by the application of force. The problem is that rendering judgment on the conduct of others is so out of fashion that abandoning the anti-social population has become the only socially acceptable recourse.
7
We American citizens are born with a natural right of self-defense, which means using whatever means necessary to protect ourselves and our loved ones from imminent danger. We have contracted with government to arrest, convict, and incarcerate those who cause us harm, our tax $ binding this contract. When government fails to uphold its end of the contract, our right of self-defense reverts to us. Whatever the root cause of the rampant crime, it exists as crime and should be appropriately dealt with, by police, courts, and prisons. I don't care whether somebody's daddy didn't love him or somebody is dyslexic or his mommy is working 3 jobs and hasn't time to parent him; if he threatens me or my loved ones, he's a goner, asap, because our "justice system" fails us.
15
A group of teenage hooligans in a minivan? Doesn't exactly sound like the typical gang activity. Sounds like disaffected suburban kids to me.
When gangs like the Cliven Bundy vigilantes can get away with lawlessness my guess is that desperate young people are only parroting what they see adults getting away with.
When the election of Barack Obama leads to an explosion of firearms purchases who cannot see an equivalent jump in all around violence.
When senators like Ted Cruz openly support anti-government insurrection what are the low information, under employed, under represented folks supposed to think.
There has been a general decline in basic civility in our Nation that should be laid squarely at the feet of the republican party.
When gangs like the Cliven Bundy vigilantes can get away with lawlessness my guess is that desperate young people are only parroting what they see adults getting away with.
When the election of Barack Obama leads to an explosion of firearms purchases who cannot see an equivalent jump in all around violence.
When senators like Ted Cruz openly support anti-government insurrection what are the low information, under employed, under represented folks supposed to think.
There has been a general decline in basic civility in our Nation that should be laid squarely at the feet of the republican party.
21
Your attempt to tease out equanimity is a fail. Yeah. Teenagers in minivans from the suburbs. Politically correct crime wave, albeit an imaginary one.
1
Bob, those who refuse to consider their values, ideas & judgments may very well be 'part' of the problem really have no place at the table nor probably any real interest in fixing it.
You've got half the problem. Open your other eye...
American crime has many root causes. Some like to blame parents. Some like to blame cowardly officials. Much crime is related to drug sales. Oct 20, last evening, an NYPD officer died at the end of a shoot-out between rival crews, a fight over territory and drug sales.
Is this too simple: no drug use, no drug sales? Who uses? Clearly the people of East Harlem don't have the money to fund the multi-billion dollar drug business. This reflects back to the criminality rampant in parts of Mexico. It reflects to the 43 students who were kidnapped and murdered in the Iguala district there. This is relevant because the cartel that controls much of life there also controls the drug supply to Chicago, one of the worst areas of gun violence in the USA. They are not the sole cartel involved in rotting America.
Wealthy people use drugs, whether they are politicians, actors, athletes, or high-pressure traders. We either jail such people in sufficient numbers to cut drug-crime, or we decriminalize drugs. It’s important to improve social conditions, education, incomes etc. But crime tops the list, and drugs are high on the list of causes.
Is this too simple: no drug use, no drug sales? Who uses? Clearly the people of East Harlem don't have the money to fund the multi-billion dollar drug business. This reflects back to the criminality rampant in parts of Mexico. It reflects to the 43 students who were kidnapped and murdered in the Iguala district there. This is relevant because the cartel that controls much of life there also controls the drug supply to Chicago, one of the worst areas of gun violence in the USA. They are not the sole cartel involved in rotting America.
Wealthy people use drugs, whether they are politicians, actors, athletes, or high-pressure traders. We either jail such people in sufficient numbers to cut drug-crime, or we decriminalize drugs. It’s important to improve social conditions, education, incomes etc. But crime tops the list, and drugs are high on the list of causes.
21
Violent crime is nothing new. Human beings have been dealing with this issue since we crawled out of the caves, and centuries ago society developed various mechanisms to handle it appropriately and humanely. The problem is that arrogant liberals, starting in the 1960's, dreamed that they could invent some better or more enlightened way of handling crime that didn't involve swift, harsh punishment. Then lo' and behold crime rates skyrocketed! You see the same thing with teen pregnancy, poverty, and all the other problems that have increased since the 1960's thanks to our oh-so enlightened friends on the left. Again, none of these are new problems. If the academics and the social workers and the community organizers would get real jobs and let us go back to handling these problems the way human beings handled them for thousands of years, the problems would disappear overnight.
10
Good idea, Alan. We could call in some Saudi consultants. They haven't tinkered with their sentencing guidelines for a thousand years!
This reminds me of my time in Oakland, California; gentrified areas of the town would swing between relative calm to outright lawlessness. The Oakland Police Department was so overwhelmed, they wouldn't respond with an officer, unless someone was killed, beaten, or a gun was involved. Otherwise, you fill out a form on the internet, and good luck getting any response. It really seemed like a crime free-for-all...which is why we got the hell out of Oakland.
On the other side, I worked in the California prison system for several years, and saw incarceration and its consequences first-hand. Low-level, non-violent offenders do not belong in state prison, no question. But this group does:
"[that] very active segment of marauding at-risk youths who find satisfaction from terrorizing people on a daily basis."
On the other side, I worked in the California prison system for several years, and saw incarceration and its consequences first-hand. Low-level, non-violent offenders do not belong in state prison, no question. But this group does:
"[that] very active segment of marauding at-risk youths who find satisfaction from terrorizing people on a daily basis."
8
Oh Liberals. God bless their confused and illogical little hearts. The crowd that calls itself the intellectual, scientific oriented and rational minds.
In the last 20 years crime went down significantly due to policies like 3 strikes and Broken glass and of course massive incarceration of criminals. Yet they don't see any relation between less crime and more criminals in jail. No. Most criminal in jail can only be result of "Systemic society failures", not a chance it could be because those who commit the crime are behind bars.
Same with the recent Ferguson effect. Crimes goes up. "Why is this happening?" , the good hearted liberals ask. Well when you have an entire movement based and inspired on a falsity of "hands up, don't shoot" that then proceed to call for the killing of cops ("what we want, dead cops now!), police cops naturally refrain from actively pursuing criminality, and, voila! Crimes increases.
You don't need to be a "Coates type" intellectual genius to concatenate cause and consequence. You just need common sense.
In the last 20 years crime went down significantly due to policies like 3 strikes and Broken glass and of course massive incarceration of criminals. Yet they don't see any relation between less crime and more criminals in jail. No. Most criminal in jail can only be result of "Systemic society failures", not a chance it could be because those who commit the crime are behind bars.
Same with the recent Ferguson effect. Crimes goes up. "Why is this happening?" , the good hearted liberals ask. Well when you have an entire movement based and inspired on a falsity of "hands up, don't shoot" that then proceed to call for the killing of cops ("what we want, dead cops now!), police cops naturally refrain from actively pursuing criminality, and, voila! Crimes increases.
You don't need to be a "Coates type" intellectual genius to concatenate cause and consequence. You just need common sense.
12
We still haven't had the conversation about appropriate sentencing for white collar crime. The perpetrators of the 2008 economic implosion are still walking free, and still committing the same acts that led to economic devastation for millions of others. Only one set of criminals has the resources to buy congressional legislation.
1
"Life, faculties, production — in other words, individuality, liberty, property — this is man. And in spite of the cunning of artful political leaders, these three gifts from God precede all human legislation, and are superior to it. Life, liberty, and property do not exist because men have made laws. On the contrary, it was the fact that life, liberty, and property existed beforehand that caused men to make laws in the first place." - Frederic Bastiat
Protecting law abiding folks from criminals is the purpose for which government is instituted, not to psychoanalyze, counsel, or parent them.
We can and should attempt to steer people away from a life of crime if we can, but never in a way that endangers public safety. The people pay taxes to have their rights to life, liberty, property, and safety protected. If the government is not performing that function then taxpayers are being defrauded.
The most obvious path to reducing the number of people who choose the path of crime is to reduce unwed motherhood. Five decades of liberal policies which promote promiscuity and abortion have had the effect of increasing the unwed motherhood rate by a factor of ten. It's time to take a different approach. Bring back morality.
Protecting law abiding folks from criminals is the purpose for which government is instituted, not to psychoanalyze, counsel, or parent them.
We can and should attempt to steer people away from a life of crime if we can, but never in a way that endangers public safety. The people pay taxes to have their rights to life, liberty, property, and safety protected. If the government is not performing that function then taxpayers are being defrauded.
The most obvious path to reducing the number of people who choose the path of crime is to reduce unwed motherhood. Five decades of liberal policies which promote promiscuity and abortion have had the effect of increasing the unwed motherhood rate by a factor of ten. It's time to take a different approach. Bring back morality.
6
The complexity of this issue is mind-boggling.
Too often well-meaning "solutions" to circumstances such as the high rate of black imprisonment focus on a single issue rather than approaching the broader causes of the circumstance.
Political solutions generally fall very short of solving vexing issues because they do not address the multitude of facets that make up the problem.
Until a comprehensive, bi-partisan effort is launched that relies on research, empirical data and workable solutions - well, you know the rest.......
Too often well-meaning "solutions" to circumstances such as the high rate of black imprisonment focus on a single issue rather than approaching the broader causes of the circumstance.
Political solutions generally fall very short of solving vexing issues because they do not address the multitude of facets that make up the problem.
Until a comprehensive, bi-partisan effort is launched that relies on research, empirical data and workable solutions - well, you know the rest.......
2
Cliven Bundy and his posse were armed and dangerous law enforcement threatening criminals while white and wonderfully lionized by the conservative right wing political and mass media madness. While poor black and brown non-violent minor property offense violating illegal drug using and possessing African Americans make up 40% of the 2.3 million Americans who are incarcerated. Even though blacks are only 13.2% of the Americans who are part of the world record 25% of the planet's prisoners with only 5% of Earthlings.
The fact is that for decades more than twice as many white Americans have been arrested for all categories of crime as compared to blacks. Indeed, more whites have been arrested for all categories of crime in contrast to blacks except for robbery and gambling. Arrests, while not convictions, are not random events. They are supposed to be the beginning of the prosecution process. But whites get a pass. While similarly situated blacks are persecuted by immoral criminal injustice.
I am not sure what being liberal while white has to do with morality, justice, empathy and humility. The American criminal justice system is both cop blue and thug multi-colored against black African Americans as a physically identifiable enslaved and Jim Crow caste of every socioeconomic political educational class. The carefully colored carved out exception to the 13th Amendments abolition of "slavery and involuntary servitude."
The fact is that for decades more than twice as many white Americans have been arrested for all categories of crime as compared to blacks. Indeed, more whites have been arrested for all categories of crime in contrast to blacks except for robbery and gambling. Arrests, while not convictions, are not random events. They are supposed to be the beginning of the prosecution process. But whites get a pass. While similarly situated blacks are persecuted by immoral criminal injustice.
I am not sure what being liberal while white has to do with morality, justice, empathy and humility. The American criminal justice system is both cop blue and thug multi-colored against black African Americans as a physically identifiable enslaved and Jim Crow caste of every socioeconomic political educational class. The carefully colored carved out exception to the 13th Amendments abolition of "slavery and involuntary servitude."
1
"The fact is that for decades more than twice as many white Americans have been arrested for all categories of crime as compared to blacks."
My, that is impressive--too bad blacks are only 13% of the population.
When 13% of the population commits 52% of the homicides, and nobody wants to talk about it, obviously there is one huge elephant in the room, as there is in this article.
My, that is impressive--too bad blacks are only 13% of the population.
When 13% of the population commits 52% of the homicides, and nobody wants to talk about it, obviously there is one huge elephant in the room, as there is in this article.
"The fact is that for decades more than twice as many white Americans have been arrested for all categories of crime as compared to blacks."
Since blacks commit 50-54% of murders in any given year this statement is simple nonsense. (In a city like D.C. the percentage of black and brown murderers would be in the 85-95% range.) The reported race of perpetrators when it is known mirrors arrest numbers. Blacks aren't going to jail because of some racial conspiracy they're going to jail because they commit massive amounts of crime, particularly violent crime. Google "Is the criminal justice system racist" by Heather MacDonald for a rebuttal to this BLM propaganda. A relevant quotation:
"The chances of getting caught and sent to prison remain extraordinarily low. The JFA Institute, an anti-incarceration advocacy group, estimated in 2007 that in only 3 percent of violent victimizations and property crimes does the offender end up in prison. In 2004, only 1.6 percent of burglars were in prison, according to the Bureau of Justice Statistics. The people in prison today, says statistician Patrick Langan, are “not very different from prisoners in the past, in terms of their prior records.”
In the overwhelming majority of cases, whatever the race of the convicted, prison remains what it has always been: a lifetime achievement award for persistence in criminal offending."
Since blacks commit 50-54% of murders in any given year this statement is simple nonsense. (In a city like D.C. the percentage of black and brown murderers would be in the 85-95% range.) The reported race of perpetrators when it is known mirrors arrest numbers. Blacks aren't going to jail because of some racial conspiracy they're going to jail because they commit massive amounts of crime, particularly violent crime. Google "Is the criminal justice system racist" by Heather MacDonald for a rebuttal to this BLM propaganda. A relevant quotation:
"The chances of getting caught and sent to prison remain extraordinarily low. The JFA Institute, an anti-incarceration advocacy group, estimated in 2007 that in only 3 percent of violent victimizations and property crimes does the offender end up in prison. In 2004, only 1.6 percent of burglars were in prison, according to the Bureau of Justice Statistics. The people in prison today, says statistician Patrick Langan, are “not very different from prisoners in the past, in terms of their prior records.”
In the overwhelming majority of cases, whatever the race of the convicted, prison remains what it has always been: a lifetime achievement award for persistence in criminal offending."
1
And yet these same liberal enclaves would be aghast at the notion that law abiding citizens should arm themselves for self defense.
One used to be able to say, in the context of carrying a weapon, "when seconds count, the police are only minutes away." Now one can say "when seconds count, the police probably aren't coming."
These navel gazing communities are getting exactly what they deserve.
One used to be able to say, in the context of carrying a weapon, "when seconds count, the police are only minutes away." Now one can say "when seconds count, the police probably aren't coming."
These navel gazing communities are getting exactly what they deserve.
11
I know! I know!
Declare DC a "sanctuary city" where no crime is punished. That's the logical next step for the liberal delusion that somehow "society" is responsible for the acts of criminals. Why, if we decriminalize criminality, there will be, ipso facto, no more criminals.
Personally, I'm enjoying a schadenfreude moment right now, while cleaning my "personal deterrent device."
Declare DC a "sanctuary city" where no crime is punished. That's the logical next step for the liberal delusion that somehow "society" is responsible for the acts of criminals. Why, if we decriminalize criminality, there will be, ipso facto, no more criminals.
Personally, I'm enjoying a schadenfreude moment right now, while cleaning my "personal deterrent device."
12
Looks like the liberals' "War on Fathers" and authority in general is showing results. Congratulations!
9
One problem with our system is when we make penalties for "non-violent" crime less severe, legislators will simply redefine the term "non-violent." Any crime involving a minor victim is often considered a "violent" crime. A sex crime is generally considered a "violent" crime even if the alleged "victim" is a just-shy-of-legal-age who willing acted on her own volition. As a result of our semantics, we find ways to justify putting kids o the public registry as young as age 10.
It will take more than a couple of symbolic laws to change the deep-seeded punitive culture of our so-called justice system.
It will take more than a couple of symbolic laws to change the deep-seeded punitive culture of our so-called justice system.
3
This is one of the biggest problems confronting any reform. There is no political will to tackle outrageous sentences for violent crime which has been defined to include things no normal speaker of English would refer to as violent. To take another example: unarmed burglary of an unoccupied home
Liberals think Heroin dealers are non violent.
7
We are reaping the whirlwind we created when schools implemented zero tolerance policies, the federal government ended "welfare as we knew it", and every level of government underfunded social services for children. It's much easier to imprison criminals than it is to provide the robust services needed to intervene in schools serving children raised in poverty and to help parents who are struggling to find work. It's much more expensive and complicated, however, to rehabilitate adults released from prison than it is to help children in need. Now we need to both… and quickly!
27
Lots of people of all colors are raised in relative poverty -- and they don't commit violent crimes. Those who do should spend a very long time in prison and should stay they permanently unless they can show they have rehabilitated themselves -- which does occasionally happen.
1
Uh, crime has been falling for years, or was until recently.
Of course the problem is we are not spending enough on welfare. Why didn't I think of that. We should give them not just Cable TV, broadband cellphones, cars, etc. That obviously shows we are a bunch of pikers bent on treating these people miserly.
3
Does anyone really question whether as inmates are released, crime rates will rise? Unfortunately, it appears the only thing that absolutely reduces recidivism is incarceration. They are, after all, criminals. It's not as though inmates are in there for their first offense. Many have other charges that were negotiated away during sentencing.
13
Hmm, but DC is also wildly segregated and has one of the worst and most underfunded school systems in the country so it is absurd to suggest this is simply about 'lack of punishment'.
1
This comment is incorrect with regard to the DC school system being underfunded. Of all the states, only NY and Alaska spend more per pupil than does the District of Columbia. The fact that DC has one of the worst school systems is caused by other factors, all related to liberal politics, policy and philosophy.
3
I just want to say how much I appreciate not just this column, but Thomas Edsall's overall contributions to public discourse on many politically sensitive matters. I don't think that anyone can dispute his basic liberal leanings, but no one has a sharper mind, clearer prose, or a more honest character than he in understanding the constraints reality imposes on liberal instincts.
He is the only pundit among all those writing for the Times I truly feel is willing to come to terms with social realities rather than pontificate or lecture or spin based on some ideologically based theory of the world.
I don't know why there aren't more Thomas Edsalls, but thank God we have at least one.
He is the only pundit among all those writing for the Times I truly feel is willing to come to terms with social realities rather than pontificate or lecture or spin based on some ideologically based theory of the world.
I don't know why there aren't more Thomas Edsalls, but thank God we have at least one.
19
Agreed! It's refreshing to see a journalist ask questions instead of plying point of view.
1
Agree, frankly0. I often disagree with, but always read him. One of the best.
1
most of the comments for this article so far are of the mind that liberals are living in their own private fantasy land (until the crime comes to their neighborhood). I'm guessing most NYT liberal reaers read the first couple paragraphs and decided to move on lest their liberal mindset be challenged...
9
While I give credit to Mr. Edsall for his balanced representation of positions, I couldn't help but wonder if his eye wasn't keener and less partisan because he actually has to live with the consequences of those policies.
2
As you know, being so smart, two out of every three of these people released will be back in prison withing three years. Within five years, 2.7 of these three people will be back in prison. The real question is how many victims they will leave behind, of which some will be dead or injured for life. At some point Capital Hill will look like a scene out of 'Blade Runner'. Kill or be killed is the future.
9
What we need to address is that the fatherless family is the preferred family structure of too many residents. Young men who grow up without fathers are more prone to crime and other problems. A blunt discussion of adult choices needs to be had, with emphasis on the consequences of peoples’ choices - on themselves, their children, and the larger society. It is no longer enough to dump all the blame on ‘inequality’ as if people were mindless agents with no free will. Nothing else is going to work.
6
Why does no one, not Mr. Edsall nor the commentators below, discuss the difference between violent and nonviolent crime? And why don't we discuss the goals of incarceration and criminal punishment -- retribution (some would say "justice'), prevention and deterrence.
Apparently tough law enforcement does reduce violent crime, and it appears that DC, Baltimore and a lot of other cities need more of this tough law enforcement. The system should be tough enough to prevent and/or deter violent crime. This is likely to mean more young black and poor people put in
jail. So be it if this protects the neighborhoods and populations most endangered by violent crime.
At the same time, we need to greatly reduce our prison population by distinguishing between violent and non-violent criminals and releasing those who are unlikely to pose threats of physical violence. It would also help to leave our moral indignation at the door and avoid excessive sentences for crimes that are unlikely to be repeated.
Apparently tough law enforcement does reduce violent crime, and it appears that DC, Baltimore and a lot of other cities need more of this tough law enforcement. The system should be tough enough to prevent and/or deter violent crime. This is likely to mean more young black and poor people put in
jail. So be it if this protects the neighborhoods and populations most endangered by violent crime.
At the same time, we need to greatly reduce our prison population by distinguishing between violent and non-violent criminals and releasing those who are unlikely to pose threats of physical violence. It would also help to leave our moral indignation at the door and avoid excessive sentences for crimes that are unlikely to be repeated.
5
Instead of spending time and money trying to rehabilitate and help violent criminals, why don't we focus on helping the poor teens who don't commit crimes in the first place? I'd rather give $1,000 to a poor hard working teenage student than a thug who assaulted and raped a woman in her own house.
4
I am reminded of an old joke. New students at a college are attending an orientation (in an era when dorms were segregated by gender). The boys are told that the penalty for being caught in the girl's dorm is $100. If they're caught a second time, it goes to $500 and a third time, $1,000. One of the boys in the back raises his hand and asks, "How much for a season pass?"
Regarding the California law that treats certain crimes as misdemeanors if they stay below a $950 cutoff, the solution is rather simple. Make the $950 a cumulative number. If you get caught shoplifting $250, the fourth time you do it, it's a felony.
This wouldn't eliminate shoplifting (even celebrities do it), but it would certainly cause some to think twice.
Regarding the California law that treats certain crimes as misdemeanors if they stay below a $950 cutoff, the solution is rather simple. Make the $950 a cumulative number. If you get caught shoplifting $250, the fourth time you do it, it's a felony.
This wouldn't eliminate shoplifting (even celebrities do it), but it would certainly cause some to think twice.
7
Yes indeedy! Rich, White liberals find criminal leniency to be "more complicated" when it's rich White liberals being robbed, raped and murdered, as opposed to Joe Six Pack out in flyover country.
9
We should admit, that at best, the social service workers---police, teachers, etc.---who are servicing these impoverished communities, are just managing, that is all. These services are not designed to solve the problems of these communities, just keep a lid on the consequences of decades of neglect. What our political class has been skillful at, particularly the Republicans, is blaming teachers for example (you know, tenure) or the residents of these communities (the takers), for high crime rates or low test scores. At the same time they are blaming the victims, they promote economic policies that further isolate these communities from the opportunities that would turn victims into agents.
"What our political class has been skillful at, particularly the Republicans, is blaming teachers for example (you know, tenure) or the residents of these communities (the takers), for high crime rates or low test scores. "
Pretty sure the residents of communities are generally responsible for crime. I think that's a fair criticism. Most people perpetrate crime in the community they live in. And ironically, what Republicans might say, Democrats have run all the big cities (DC, NYC, Chicago, LA) for generations. Democrats have run these cities and own the results. Don't try to pass the buck.
Pretty sure the residents of communities are generally responsible for crime. I think that's a fair criticism. Most people perpetrate crime in the community they live in. And ironically, what Republicans might say, Democrats have run all the big cities (DC, NYC, Chicago, LA) for generations. Democrats have run these cities and own the results. Don't try to pass the buck.
1
I can't understand the general pessimism of the column's conclusion and of the comments. It is obvious that the problem will never be entirely solved and it is equally obvious that there is a lot of room for improvement. One major part of the problem is mass incarceration of non-violent offenders. By all means incarcerate violent offenders and increase the term if they repeat. But try to incarcerate them in a manner that decreases recidivism, and try to give them a chance to go straight when they go out. The unintended consequences of reform that are mentioned should have been foreseen by anyone with half a brain, and in any case are easy to fix. I can only see this senseless negativity as racism.
4
I agree and also believe that we have to stop exposing youth to justice interventions for first time minor offenses like shop lifting, drinking alcohol, etc. Petty first time offenses by youth do not need formal interventions, including restorative justice, but are better dealt with by a warning from a police officer, school principle, etc. Formal justice interventions, including restorative justice processes, should only be used for cases where a true harm occurred, not when a 10 year old is caught taking a candy bar from a store, or a 15 year old tries drinking alcohol for the first time, etc. Widening the criminal justice net and bringing more youth into the system creates potential "criminals."
2
The real problem is the unintended consequences of the welfare state.
Seventy percent of black babies are born into single parent families, which we know is the greatest predictor of a failed life-outcome
More welfare isn't the solution, because it is welfare that is exacerbating the problem.
The problem isn't poverty, because prior to Johnson's "Great Society" programs, a black child was about as likely as a white child to be born into a two parent family. Crime in black neighborhoods before the welfare push wasn't high.
Liberal policies have destroyed the black family and the black community. Increasing the dollars through liberal policies will only produce more of this problem, not less.
You have to take away the incentive for people to have babies that the taxpayer supports.
Seventy percent of black babies are born into single parent families, which we know is the greatest predictor of a failed life-outcome
More welfare isn't the solution, because it is welfare that is exacerbating the problem.
The problem isn't poverty, because prior to Johnson's "Great Society" programs, a black child was about as likely as a white child to be born into a two parent family. Crime in black neighborhoods before the welfare push wasn't high.
Liberal policies have destroyed the black family and the black community. Increasing the dollars through liberal policies will only produce more of this problem, not less.
You have to take away the incentive for people to have babies that the taxpayer supports.
1
Just for everyone's information, the recidivism rate for violent criminals who are executed is zero.
1
Police have backed off thanks to BLM, and now criminals probably won't even serve any jail time for violent crime. Any wonder why crime rates are surging? Liberals bumping into their own bad policies.
12
All in all not a bad op-ed, though a bit overdone with the crime anecdotes. Redistribution of wealth and elimination of the puritanical drug laws(remember what prohibition gave us) would be two good points of attack on the systemic societal problem.
1
I wonder if the victims of those crimes might think that the anecdotes were just about right.
1
Edsall doesn't say it, but just come out and say it--these crimes are not being committed by blonde-haired Lutherans from Minnesota. This is the breakdown of families, households without two parents--a mother and a father--present. The DC economy--with government, lots of tourism, even a high-tech corridor in Northern VA and plenty of universities, should support employment with good jobs for all who "prepare" themselves for it. I'm fed up with the excuses given. When will it be individual responsibility for their behavior as citizens in society?
16
Personal responsibility is not compatable with liberal Democrat politics. Get used to it.
1
Are you serious? Aurora, Sandy Hook, Charleston, Roseburg? Those weren't inner city black youth that committed those horrors and they are emblematic of a serious and deeper level of alienation and crime that exists in the heartland among not just working class, but more affluent youth as well.
Perhaps an overlooked piece of the crime pie is trade agreements that do not protect American jobs and wages.
3
Private, for-profit prisons bring a whole new dynamic to the question that I don't see being addressed here.
18
Don't forget the prison employee unions. They have a vested interest in keeping incarceration rates high.
1
As a progressive (I don't refer to myself as a liberal) and a black man, I feel the comments here really miss the point that the symptom of crime is not adequately addressed solely by decreasing the severity of the punishment meted out.
None of the sentencing reform addresses lack of jobs, education, and full enfranchisement many minorities still face in our nation. Moreover, none of the sentencing reforms at all are applicable to violent crimes. So, it's unclear why many people believe a more fair sentencing posture is somehow related to a roving gang of juveniles, for example, robbing people.
It seems clear that those who complain about violent crime completely ignore their own complicity in it. One cannot destroy the character of a neighborhood by moving in and moving the existing folks out, all the while not providing any sort of engagement with the remaining neighbors or any incentive for those 'old guard' neighbors to be a vital part of the neighborhood. Instead, these new neighbors interact solely with themselves, feel entitled to own the neighborhood, and exclude anyone else who doesn't look like them.
I know it's hard to put oneself, especially if you're white, in a minority's shoes. But imagine your neighborhood was hostilely taken over by some group, hell bent on excluding you from its management and marginalizing you. You have no real option to participate. And there is some animosity for that marginalization, which manifests itself in acts of violent crime.
None of the sentencing reform addresses lack of jobs, education, and full enfranchisement many minorities still face in our nation. Moreover, none of the sentencing reforms at all are applicable to violent crimes. So, it's unclear why many people believe a more fair sentencing posture is somehow related to a roving gang of juveniles, for example, robbing people.
It seems clear that those who complain about violent crime completely ignore their own complicity in it. One cannot destroy the character of a neighborhood by moving in and moving the existing folks out, all the while not providing any sort of engagement with the remaining neighbors or any incentive for those 'old guard' neighbors to be a vital part of the neighborhood. Instead, these new neighbors interact solely with themselves, feel entitled to own the neighborhood, and exclude anyone else who doesn't look like them.
I know it's hard to put oneself, especially if you're white, in a minority's shoes. But imagine your neighborhood was hostilely taken over by some group, hell bent on excluding you from its management and marginalizing you. You have no real option to participate. And there is some animosity for that marginalization, which manifests itself in acts of violent crime.
28
You demand a lot of society (ex., jobs, education, etc.) just to get someone to NOT commit crime.
There are enough people who don't commit crimes while living in poverty, with minimal education and plenty of hardship to model the kind of behavior that keeps people out of prison. Inspiration should start there.
There are enough people who don't commit crimes while living in poverty, with minimal education and plenty of hardship to model the kind of behavior that keeps people out of prison. Inspiration should start there.
7
I really believe your giving credit to those committing these crimes as if they have no choice. If they had no choice why isn't everyone in that position committing crimes? Though poverty and isolation certainly account for a justified sense of hopelessness it is also clear that a vast majority in those neighborhoods, in those same circumstances, do not commit criminal acts, violent criminal acts out of desperation.
Children without guidence and leadership act out in childish ways. Being bigger and stronger means they will act out in more violent ways but or the same childish reasons.
How do you promote marriage and fatherhood to provide the guidence and teach the maturity these kids need?
Blaming society - though it certainly deserves some of that blame - absolves criminals of responsibility. That simply is unrealistic.
Children without guidence and leadership act out in childish ways. Being bigger and stronger means they will act out in more violent ways but or the same childish reasons.
How do you promote marriage and fatherhood to provide the guidence and teach the maturity these kids need?
Blaming society - though it certainly deserves some of that blame - absolves criminals of responsibility. That simply is unrealistic.
1
In response to Progressive:
I saw the same thing happen in my neighborhood in Manhattan. So naturally, most of us upper middle-class, white professionals started committing violent crimes against the ultra-rich Europeans and hedge-fund types who were messing with our hood.
I saw the same thing happen in my neighborhood in Manhattan. So naturally, most of us upper middle-class, white professionals started committing violent crimes against the ultra-rich Europeans and hedge-fund types who were messing with our hood.
1
Hard to see how "joblessness" relates to punching an old guy in the face while your girlfriend gets it on camera.
29
Yes, notice the tech angle, which Mr. Edsall ignores in an otherwise thoughtful piece. Talk about unintended consequences. "Flash" mob attacks, videotaped beatings. As any remotely objective person has seen from the start, these dazzling tools that are supposed to be marching us into the light have dark uses as well.
1
DC already spends more that $29,000 per student so the funds for education are there. There are so many unfilled service sector jobs in DC hotels and restaurants that immigrants travel thousands of miles for employment. So the prime unaddressed problem is individual choice! Why don't the troubled youths Mr. Coates speaks of take advantage of either? Study hard and get ahead using the advantage of affirmative action! Work and save your money and invest it in a small business. Do criminal acts appear that beneficial? Are they the example we want set?
13
Prosecution standards in Washington have become a secondary school offering free courses in how to be a successful street criminal without fear of jail.
I have lived on Capitol Hill, and in the safer, more prosperous NW Connecticut Avenue corridor. Young criminals commute to both places from other parts of the city: that is where the more prosperous victims are.
When I assisted the police in identifying and capturing groups of marauders and individual thieves and muggers, prosecutors later contacted me to advise that prosecution will not proceed because the offenders have been "diverted" into "reeducation" programs.
When I have been called to jury duty there, I was inevitably excused during the voir dire process because I am white and because I have been the victim of street crime.
In the cause of social experiments, victims have no voice and scant justice in Washington.
I have lived on Capitol Hill, and in the safer, more prosperous NW Connecticut Avenue corridor. Young criminals commute to both places from other parts of the city: that is where the more prosperous victims are.
When I assisted the police in identifying and capturing groups of marauders and individual thieves and muggers, prosecutors later contacted me to advise that prosecution will not proceed because the offenders have been "diverted" into "reeducation" programs.
When I have been called to jury duty there, I was inevitably excused during the voir dire process because I am white and because I have been the victim of street crime.
In the cause of social experiments, victims have no voice and scant justice in Washington.
29
Having grown up in NYC in the 60s and 70s and being the victim of constant black-on-white crime I have absolutely no sympathy for liberals who are victimized by the mess they've created. Having dealt with this crap, I am stained with an indelible hate for liberal stupidity. "Sure it's fine if poor honest hardworking whites suffer a lifetime of abuse, but keep it out of my sight".
When I hear our president inject himself into racial politics it makes me sick to my stomach. He doesn't know about the American experience. He isn't a black American in the cultural sense.
Wake up and deal with reality. When you commit a crime, you are a criminal, not a victim. It doesn't matter what color you are. Stop making excuses for criminal behavior.
When I hear our president inject himself into racial politics it makes me sick to my stomach. He doesn't know about the American experience. He isn't a black American in the cultural sense.
Wake up and deal with reality. When you commit a crime, you are a criminal, not a victim. It doesn't matter what color you are. Stop making excuses for criminal behavior.
27
What liberals don't want to admit is that there is a certain subset of continual criminals. Mostly teenagers or early twenties who take a great deal of pleasure in smacking others in the face. I don't care about their social pathologies nor about how they got the. I simply don't wish to be their victim.
You can't fix these people and letting them out simply allows them to go on victimizing others.
Lock 'em up or execute them, you simply can't let them loose.
You can't fix these people and letting them out simply allows them to go on victimizing others.
Lock 'em up or execute them, you simply can't let them loose.
20
These neighborhoods have always had a lot of crime. It's only because white people are moving there that we hear so much about it now.
11
A most complex issue to resolve, while very simple in the minds of perpetrators, finding justification of their malfeasance prior to acting on it, however crazy it may sound. Reasons abound, i.e. feeling victim of an unjust system, where the taking of 'goods' (via assaulting the victim or just entering and taking what is thought to be theirs) is their right, so the sharing of wealth becomes less unequal; and, besides, unable to find a job for an honest way to make a living (Banking as casino gambling may not fit that bill, at least from a petty thief's standpoint); and being hungry as a result, and his needs left 'wanting', completes a picture of vicitim...and in need of redemption. Is there a chance that, every time a robber is caught, an immediate job is made available to him/her, under supervision? I hear our infrastructure is crumbling...while idle hands are available for the asking.
4
Being unable to find a job might cause me to steal a loaf of bread in desperation, but why would I punch a stranger in the face? There is no excuse for this.
37
Yes,the ability of an organized matrix of powers keeping you impoverished,lead-poisoned, and powerless would never make you angry, not you.
Obviously we can't just excuse petty crime, but the solution isn't to go back to mass incarceration.
The solution lies in a more comprehensive probation system that includes a social worker, a public service job and the assurance of safe, affordable housing. YES these things will cost money, but not necessarily more than mass incarceration currently costs us.
Conservatives may not like giving people a hand up rather than a boot in the face, but its the only way we're going to get out of our social death-spiral.
The solution lies in a more comprehensive probation system that includes a social worker, a public service job and the assurance of safe, affordable housing. YES these things will cost money, but not necessarily more than mass incarceration currently costs us.
Conservatives may not like giving people a hand up rather than a boot in the face, but its the only way we're going to get out of our social death-spiral.
3
Assault -- simply punching a random stranger in the face for the fun of it -- is not a "petty crime." It manifests an inability to live in human society.
2
Business is motivated to find more customers and get more profit for less goods and services. Mass incarceration is to some extent a result of privatization. Look for more failures in other sectors (education, the military, health care, the postal service, social security e.t.c.) where the right has pushed for turning the public good into profit for their donors. The public good should not be turned into for profit enterprises and, NO business is often NOT more efficient that the public sector as the health care systems in many other countries show.
3
The root cause for me is always lack of parenting. Until we can incentivize individuals who have no business having children to stop having them, the cycle will not end. We need to target at risk communities, provide them free education including mandatory parenting classes, free birth control (any type they want), free abortion services (no questions asked), and monetary incentives for completing education, delaying procreation, having fewer kids, and marrying before having them. Regardless, when any criminal activity involves assault or violence of any kind against another human, you should be locked up for the safety of other citizens.
18
Nonsense. None of the things you propose gets at the cause of the problems that Mr. Edsall mentions at the close of his piece. Our social order is deeply flawed and street violence is the proof. Promoting more abortions for poor people doesn't solve the problem of poverty, it merely sidesteps it. Shall we also provide free abortion services for the 1%?
Let's simplify the equation:
Violent crime = jail time
Non-violent crime = probation
Let's put an upper limit of $1000 on the non-violent crime for probation, if by some miracle anybody ever tries to prosecute the vicious savage thieves of Wall Street.
Dan Kravitz
Violent crime = jail time
Non-violent crime = probation
Let's put an upper limit of $1000 on the non-violent crime for probation, if by some miracle anybody ever tries to prosecute the vicious savage thieves of Wall Street.
Dan Kravitz
55
Sounds good, but I still don't think I would appreciate being burgled once a week.
2
What if the non-violent crime involves interstate infractions which ratchets it up to a federal crime? What is the non-violent crime involves hacking like the latest incident of the three upper middle class white kids hacking into their high school's computer to change their grades & their friends schedules. Or does this crime's punishment warrant three years in jail in order to teach kids a lesson whereas drug dealers dealing hard drugs like heroin, crack or meth are considered on violent criminals & should only receive probation even though ultimately people will die from their products as well as steal & assault innocent old people in order to get the money to feed their voracious habit.
2
I understand that one size does not fit all. I am not recommending this as an absolute, but as a guideline.
Dan Kravitz
Dan Kravitz
1
Has Ms Holwill read much of what Coates writes? He has repeatedly dealt with her complaint about community members (males) who run from family responsibilities.
4
Re: "Public figures from Hillary Clinton to Ta-Nehisi Coates...have argued that unnecessarily harsh sentencing has damaged the prospects of black men."
They need to know what else damaged the prospects of black men:
"Why affirmative action failed black families where it matters most" http://malemattersusa.wordpress.com/2012/02/08/why-affirmative-action-ha...
They need to know what else damaged the prospects of black men:
"Why affirmative action failed black families where it matters most" http://malemattersusa.wordpress.com/2012/02/08/why-affirmative-action-ha...
7
Mr. Edsall presents actual evidence that is a slap in the face to knee jerk liberals who cry "racism" at the drop of a hat without considering all sides of the criminal justice system argument. Ta-Nehisi Coates is an excellent writer who allows readers an insight into the oppressive nature of living in modern day ghettos. Although even he, who grew up on the mean streets of Baltimore, admits that the community was dysfunctional, blaming the long lasting repercussions of slavery upon his people's psyche for the violence & criminal sociology that confronts every resident including young kids walking to school. Coates outlines all of the defensive behaviors that he had to learn in order to avoid having his bike stolen, getting hurt & killed by psychopathic criminals or how to toughly blend in to avoid becoming a victim. Sure, the easiest way to protect law abiding members of the community is to arrest criminals for minor crimes as a deterrent to criminality although it is inhumane to lock up individuals, no matter how heinous their acts & throw away the key in a system that purports to rehabilitate offenders. One wonders how people of any color would survive in countries like Singapore that have no tolerance for any anti-social criminal deeds including littering which can lead the offender to be caned. Singapore has the lowest crime rate of any country which keeps children, the elderly & vulnerable safe from predators although others from violent countries criticize it.
3
Mr. Edsall, you make a cogent argument for bringing back the concentration camp. But before we do that, let's ensure that AT LEAST ONE PERSON -- and, so far, there haven't been any -- responsible for the financial meltdown of 2008-2009 goes to jail.
Personally, I can't sweat the small stuff, considering what the wolves of Wall Street did to my 401K, IRAs, home equity value, job prospects, etc. Let's get tougher with white collar criminals and a lot of these 'little' problems will take care of themselves.
Personally, I can't sweat the small stuff, considering what the wolves of Wall Street did to my 401K, IRAs, home equity value, job prospects, etc. Let's get tougher with white collar criminals and a lot of these 'little' problems will take care of themselves.
5
It won't be "small stuff" when it happens to you, CraigieBob.
1
Regarding jobs, there is the assumption that corporate America will "create" jobs but this is less and less the case, and even when it happens, the jobs are often not worth having. The paradigm needs to shift: neighborhoods need to create jobs: markets, restaurants, infrastructure repair, small businesses of all sorts. There should be initiatives in these neighborhoods to create startups and fund them. This should have been happening during all those years when tough policing was an accepted practice. In other words, tackle the problem from both sides: be tough on crime, but also address the underlying causes.
2
Anecdotes, selective stats (in the thousands of California cities some cities are seeing increases in some crimes!) and political expediency are at the heart of most bad policies.
5
Thomas Edsall notes "That may be what’s happening on the national level but locally, it gets complicated, especially in more liberal neighborhoods." The "That" in "That may be what’s happening on the national level " he means that those advocating leniency seem to have gained the upper hand and that there is a growing bipartisan agreement on that as well. But, as he also notes, "it gets complicated, especially in more liberal neighborhoods."
In other words, even though there may be some agreement at the national level there is not much agreement at the local level. Fundamentally this is because the view from 30,000 feet up in the sky - which is where policies get framed - is very different from the ground view - which is where most people live every day. This discordance between the national and local perspectives is also driven by NIMBY attitudes. Those framing lenient policies tend to live in less crime ridden neighborhoods, if not, in exclusive gated communities and have no personal experience of the street level crimes. They don't see it in their "backyards" and hence assume that nobody sees it in their backyards. Those who live in crime ridden neighborhoods actually experience it very closely and hence call for more stringent punishment.
I have no idea how these two discordant views can be reconciled.
In other words, even though there may be some agreement at the national level there is not much agreement at the local level. Fundamentally this is because the view from 30,000 feet up in the sky - which is where policies get framed - is very different from the ground view - which is where most people live every day. This discordance between the national and local perspectives is also driven by NIMBY attitudes. Those framing lenient policies tend to live in less crime ridden neighborhoods, if not, in exclusive gated communities and have no personal experience of the street level crimes. They don't see it in their "backyards" and hence assume that nobody sees it in their backyards. Those who live in crime ridden neighborhoods actually experience it very closely and hence call for more stringent punishment.
I have no idea how these two discordant views can be reconciled.
9
This article conflates reconsidering incarceration with violent crime and that is only the most egregious error of many. The specific crimes mentioned that are troubling the capitol hill area are violent or potentially, involving weapons and use of vehicles to kidnap, The movement to reduce incarceration is not about this sort of crime at all. To lump them together is inexcusable.
As for capitol hill, why do these people believe they should be spared what is merely the norm for other neighborhoods? Just because they make more money, have prestigious jobs, they should enjoy a public space better than others? I believe that belief alone is a major contributing factor behind increasing crime.
First, it supports out of sight out of mind governance. Only when it's in your back yard are you even willing to consider crime seriously. The crime has been here all along but you are only concerned when it's on your block. It is on your block because it has been so ignored for so long as long as it did not happen to you.
Black Lives Matter!
Second, it allows the better resourced to separate themselves from "those people" with an implicit hierarchy that allows the advantaged to not have to actually look at the others for who they really are, consider what their problems actually are, or ask what they want for themselves, their children or their community. As usual, the well heeled will tell them what for perpetuating the conditions that cause crime
Black Lives Matter!
As for capitol hill, why do these people believe they should be spared what is merely the norm for other neighborhoods? Just because they make more money, have prestigious jobs, they should enjoy a public space better than others? I believe that belief alone is a major contributing factor behind increasing crime.
First, it supports out of sight out of mind governance. Only when it's in your back yard are you even willing to consider crime seriously. The crime has been here all along but you are only concerned when it's on your block. It is on your block because it has been so ignored for so long as long as it did not happen to you.
Black Lives Matter!
Second, it allows the better resourced to separate themselves from "those people" with an implicit hierarchy that allows the advantaged to not have to actually look at the others for who they really are, consider what their problems actually are, or ask what they want for themselves, their children or their community. As usual, the well heeled will tell them what for perpetuating the conditions that cause crime
Black Lives Matter!
6
With the exception of the words "Black Lives Matter" (which they do), I cannot find any valid arguments in your comment. First, crime happens in poorer neighborhoods, so people in affluent neighborhoods have no right to protest it happening to them? The article ITSELF acknowledges that the reason so many people in poorer neighborhoods DON'T REPORT crimes is because the criminal is back on the streets within days! EVERYONE is complaining about it, not just the wealthy. Second, there is no conflation in the reduced sentencing debate. First, as many, many people have pointed out, most people serving decades of time are NOT non-violent drug offenders. Second, if there's a call for reducing the "root causes" of crime, I don't see why it is unreasonable to call someone DEALING in hard drugs one of those root causes. There's more to the drug war than marijuana. Many addicts are so desperate they'll kill to get their fix and drug crime sentencing is not going to help stop that. As for "out of sight, out of mind," you're just repeating a truism. People see what's happening in their own communities and they take what action they can. You make that into a character flaw. Yes, I may know and have an opinion on Baltimore or Ferguson, but I'm not a RESIDENT. News reports or not, I know about as much as the cops or victims in those places as they know about me (i.e., NOTHING). But I know what happens down the street.
1
The "war on drugs" is over. We lost.
And why don't Bush and Cheney get any prison times for:
1) Allowing Al Qaeda to attack us on 9-11?
2) Abandoning Afghanistan to invade Iraq, causing us to lose Afghanistan?
3) His criminal enterprise in Iraq, with lost thousands of U.S. lives and led to the creation of ISIS?
4) Abandoning thousands to their deaths after Hurricane Katrina?
And why don't Bush and Cheney get any prison times for:
1) Allowing Al Qaeda to attack us on 9-11?
2) Abandoning Afghanistan to invade Iraq, causing us to lose Afghanistan?
3) His criminal enterprise in Iraq, with lost thousands of U.S. lives and led to the creation of ISIS?
4) Abandoning thousands to their deaths after Hurricane Katrina?
5
Is that what you worry about while walking down a dark alley in the middle of the night? Bush and Cheney coming to get you?
4
Bush and Cheney "allowed" Al Qaeda to attack us? Republicans claim that Clinton allowed our diplomats to be killed in Benghazi. You are just like the Republicans. Extreme partisanship is ruining this country's political system. You should be ashamed of yourself.
1
Well, it's because those things are on us too.
3
First, there is a misperception encouraging more lenient policy that the majority of crimes are "victimless" including mainly drug related issues. They cite statistics from Federal prisons confirming this. However, more than 90% of prisoners are in State prisons not Federal Prisons. If you combine the two sources, you see that by far the largest source of crime is violent crime. See link.
http://felonvoting.procon.org/view.resource.php?resourceID=004339
I largely agree with Ms. Spurgeon. The issue is not just poverty and its ill effects but our reaction to it. We do the poor no favors (and certainly not the law abiding members of the community) by essentially condoning crime by allowing offenders to return to the streets the same day. Fear of crime can make regular people prisoners in their own home.
Not mentioned in the article is the breakdown in the family and failing school system that contribute to the problem. Children in two-parent families are less likely to commit crime or have drug issues yet 70% of black children are born to single mothers. Education can help someone get a better job and earn more income yet fewer than 58% of children in DC graduate high school.
Unfortunately, many liberals consider issues such as marriage and education to be "life-style" choices or the result of poverty itself. Democrats push for free college or other federal programs will not improve this. We need to say no to crime and improve these root causes of poverty.
http://felonvoting.procon.org/view.resource.php?resourceID=004339
I largely agree with Ms. Spurgeon. The issue is not just poverty and its ill effects but our reaction to it. We do the poor no favors (and certainly not the law abiding members of the community) by essentially condoning crime by allowing offenders to return to the streets the same day. Fear of crime can make regular people prisoners in their own home.
Not mentioned in the article is the breakdown in the family and failing school system that contribute to the problem. Children in two-parent families are less likely to commit crime or have drug issues yet 70% of black children are born to single mothers. Education can help someone get a better job and earn more income yet fewer than 58% of children in DC graduate high school.
Unfortunately, many liberals consider issues such as marriage and education to be "life-style" choices or the result of poverty itself. Democrats push for free college or other federal programs will not improve this. We need to say no to crime and improve these root causes of poverty.
11
Even those convicted for "mere" drug crimes may be guilty of more violent crimes. My local paper is replete with examples where a criminal agrees to plead guilty to a drug crime in exchange for having more serious (particularly gun related charges) dismissed.
1
I know many people will shriek at this comment, but it's time to bring back the "whipping post". I know liberal's will respond that we will hurt their self esteem, but what self esteem do they have. Sometimes public humiliation is necessary and it will keep these juveniles out of the jails.
I would suggest the whippings be done by the parents. I know many mothers would rather see this that see their child incarcerated or dead.
I would suggest the whippings be done by the parents. I know many mothers would rather see this that see their child incarcerated or dead.
5
I'd go for the stocks as it leaves no damage and provides plenty of public humiliation.
I am not a fan of the whipping post, but I always liked the idea of dye. Charges of violence such as road rage and domestic violence; yellow. Finance, identity theft, check fraud; green. Drug distribution; pink. Sexual assault and child molestation, peach. This would identify the perpetrator and crime to others. It would do the public humiliation, It would help or society to self-monitor criminal behavior. It would clear our prisons. and jails.
Would I take a check from a green guy? I would definitely watch my kids around a peach guy. I would keep an eye on the pink guy living across the street for unusual traffic coming in and out of his home.
After a predetermined time, the person would be allowed to let the die wear off.
Would I take a check from a green guy? I would definitely watch my kids around a peach guy. I would keep an eye on the pink guy living across the street for unusual traffic coming in and out of his home.
After a predetermined time, the person would be allowed to let the die wear off.
Senator Moynihan warned about this in the 1960's. Poor planning, policy and legislation lead to unintended consequences.
The biggest issue not addressed is overpopulation, people having children they are not equipped to raise. They don't have the economic means, the family structure, and quality schools to produce quality citizens. But, we do provide an attractive "Loss Leader": if you get pregnant and have a kid (or kids) society will provide you a free apartment and free food. The father(s) of your kid(s) can come stay with you for free as well, as long as you don't get married. Society won't check up on you, won't judge you and will not ask for anything back.
People are not stupid. If you are an 18 year old woman with (or without) a high school diploma you have 2 options: get a minimum wage service job without much of a future work hard in a demanding environment and barely have enough money to afford an apartment probably with multiple other people in similar circumstances or get pregnant (at the height of your biological maturity and depth of your adult maturity), get your own private apartment, as much, if not more, income and a family to "love". If one of your progeny turns out to be a low level teenage thief or attacker, you won't be judged, and you get to blame the schools, society and if you're a minority, institutional racism.
Is it surprising that so many people make this choice?
We need accountability and responsibility.
The biggest issue not addressed is overpopulation, people having children they are not equipped to raise. They don't have the economic means, the family structure, and quality schools to produce quality citizens. But, we do provide an attractive "Loss Leader": if you get pregnant and have a kid (or kids) society will provide you a free apartment and free food. The father(s) of your kid(s) can come stay with you for free as well, as long as you don't get married. Society won't check up on you, won't judge you and will not ask for anything back.
People are not stupid. If you are an 18 year old woman with (or without) a high school diploma you have 2 options: get a minimum wage service job without much of a future work hard in a demanding environment and barely have enough money to afford an apartment probably with multiple other people in similar circumstances or get pregnant (at the height of your biological maturity and depth of your adult maturity), get your own private apartment, as much, if not more, income and a family to "love". If one of your progeny turns out to be a low level teenage thief or attacker, you won't be judged, and you get to blame the schools, society and if you're a minority, institutional racism.
Is it surprising that so many people make this choice?
We need accountability and responsibility.
42
We need to bring back orphanages to take care of children when the parents cannot. That used to be common even up to the 1950's and many adults who grew up in those orphanages speak fondly of the experience.
With well run orphanages, we don't have to reward irresponsible parents just to avoid punishing the child. And I can't imagine an orphanage could do a much worse job of parenting than many of these children experience.
With well run orphanages, we don't have to reward irresponsible parents just to avoid punishing the child. And I can't imagine an orphanage could do a much worse job of parenting than many of these children experience.
1
The cause of the crime surge is here ascribed to either less policing or street drugs. Could gentrification also be a cause? More affluent residents mean more targets.
Proposition 47 would make more sense if the $950 limit were cumulative across repeat offenses.
Proposition 47 would make more sense if the $950 limit were cumulative across repeat offenses.
4
It likely means more reporting of crime.
1
Good idea, that last thing.
1
When a neighborhood is overwhelmingly black, liberals complain about segregation. When whites move in, liberals complain about gentrification. You can't win.
3
It's one thing to have sentencing reform for minor nonviolent crimes, which shouldn't ruin someone's life. It's quite another to go easy on violent crimes, which Edsall so well describes. When it comes to violence, damn the ultimate causes, lock these people up and get them off the streets for good. Life isn't fair, but that's no excuse for violence. Zero tolerance.
101
You have divided offenders into two groups -- drug users and violent offenders. Department of Justice statistics reveal that those convicted of drug use are far more likely to be violent offenders than the general public. There are no definitive studies, but it seems likely that as many as half of those convicted of non-violent drug offenses have committed uncharged violent crimes. At any rate, the overlap between criminal drug users and violence is substantial. And your suggestion that they are mutually exclusive is simply wrong.
1
What happens when the state social worker takes your wife to the police and tells them what to write and her to sign, when she doesn't understand English? Latter she would try to retract the statement to the police and the prosecutor. No luck, you will be told by the lawyer that the prosecutor is her friend and your best bet is cop a plea or it could be very expensive. Why do you think other countries hate us when we are offering democracy and freedom? Nice business. Keeping watching justice on TV.
A lot of the crime you describe reflects, among other things, nihilism. Nihilism does not respond much to deterrence. I can't help believing that this nihilism in turn comes from the harsh realization among the poor that their opportunities are so limited, but that even the opportunities that would lead to a middle class life are barely worth having as middle class incomes stagnate or decline and the middle class's own opportunities recede from their reach.
The rich are making a very ugly country for themselves by hoarding wealth and safety. They may be pretty isolated from the ugliness, but don't they see it from their car windows as they drive through Capitol hill?
The rich are making a very ugly country for themselves by hoarding wealth and safety. They may be pretty isolated from the ugliness, but don't they see it from their car windows as they drive through Capitol hill?
15
As Owen Cass recently wrote, the real problem is not that the children have been raised poor, but that they have been poorly raised.
21
The primary reason U.S. incarceration rates are high is because U.S. crime clearance rates are high. (Clearance rates are calculated by dividing the number of crimes that are "cleared" by arrests.) The high clearance rate encourages crime victims to report crimes that would go unreported in many countries. According to the FBI Uniform Crime Report, U.S. police clear about 64 percent of murders, 58 percent of assaults, 40 percent of reported rapes, 29 percent of robberies, 22 percent of thefts, 14 percent of car thefts and 13.1 percent of burglaries. Only 36 percent of murderers and only 60 percent of (reported) rapists get away with it. Even some armed robbers, burglars and car thieves go to jail, a clear indication that police are making life too difficult for criminals. The obvious solution is to lower the clearance rates by catching a smaller percent of murderers, muggers, rapists, robbers, thieves, burglars and car thieves. We can do this simply by decreasing police funding, but crime victims could do their part by not reporting crimes. It is estimated that less than 80 percent of rapes go unreported. We should aim for the same level of under reporting in other crime categories.
3
I'm in! I mean, yeah, more bad guys will remain on the streets but... Hey, I'll sure feel better about myself. No more feeding that "Prison Industrial Complex" for this guy!
Here's my public plea: If my home or property is burglarized (for a 3rd time in 5 years), I will NOT call the police this time. Nope. No sir-ee. Gotta get those prison numbers down. And hey, maybe he'll be lenient towards me & not take anything too valuable this time. I'm sure he regrets basically cleaning me out 2 years ago.
Wow.. I feel better already.
Here's my public plea: If my home or property is burglarized (for a 3rd time in 5 years), I will NOT call the police this time. Nope. No sir-ee. Gotta get those prison numbers down. And hey, maybe he'll be lenient towards me & not take anything too valuable this time. I'm sure he regrets basically cleaning me out 2 years ago.
Wow.. I feel better already.
1
When it comes to "leniency":
Yes: "address the social, racial and economic factors behind crime"
Sentencing reform, yes!
Assault with a weapon, rape, murder: No!
Sexual assault and cross-generational assault, no.
Repeat offender, young or old, absolutely not.
Yes: "address the social, racial and economic factors behind crime"
Sentencing reform, yes!
Assault with a weapon, rape, murder: No!
Sexual assault and cross-generational assault, no.
Repeat offender, young or old, absolutely not.
7
"Nationally, advocates of leniency appear to have gained the upper hand."
That isn't leniency.
It is ending vicious over the top vengeful sentencing promoted by politicians pandering to fear and hate.
We got here with code word politics and Willie Horton hate campaigns.
Ending that is not leniency. It is sanity. It is a modest attempt to return to some connection to actual justice.
That isn't leniency.
It is ending vicious over the top vengeful sentencing promoted by politicians pandering to fear and hate.
We got here with code word politics and Willie Horton hate campaigns.
Ending that is not leniency. It is sanity. It is a modest attempt to return to some connection to actual justice.
26
All well and good, Mr. Thomason. But you don't address the very legitimate concerns raised by this article. What about violent criminals terrorizing neighborhoods?
1
It is difficult to focus on the chicken when you're hit in the face with an egg.
5
Every religious man I ever met regardless of faith or the number of different gods worshiped agreed on one thing: atheism is worse than any religion. Similarly, every political flack I ever met, regardless of party, agrees on one thing: libertarianism is bad, government is good.
Objective reality does not seem to matter.
Here's my suggestion to those who think god and government will save them:
Cast your vote for the corrupt politician of your choice and pray.
Meanwhile, leave the rest of us alone because the way I see it, the more you do, the worse life in this land of the no longer free seems to get.
Objective reality does not seem to matter.
Here's my suggestion to those who think god and government will save them:
Cast your vote for the corrupt politician of your choice and pray.
Meanwhile, leave the rest of us alone because the way I see it, the more you do, the worse life in this land of the no longer free seems to get.
13
Well, it is proven that believing in God is a good bet. If you believe in God and after you die you are wrong and there is none, no harm no foul, but if you do not believe in God and after you die you are wrong, you are in big trouble.
So smart betters believe in God.
So smart betters believe in God.
2
I have no idea if I agree or disagree with you. Maybe it's just me.
We have this fantasy about a lot of things, not just crime, that a solution of one kind or another will yield only good stuff. And that an action that led to a bad outcome was some sort of irrational foolishness.
Mass incarceration was the result of soaring crime rates, especially in large cities. The crimes were often associated with drug deals. And the call for action was led, in large part, by law-abiding African-Americans whose neighborhoods had become war zones.
And that led to mass incarcerations, which are not only expensive, but produce people who can't get a job or housing.
The solution--to decriminalize many acts, or turn felonies into misdemeanors, or release people from prison--helps some, surely. But it also leads to soaring crime rates in some communities, and shop lifters with calculators.
When neighborhoods--cities--become victimized by crime, those who can leave. Businesses close. Taxes go down so services are reduced. Jobs disappear. And you end up with another Baltimore.
We need to stop now and ask ourselves what we're doing. If mass incarcerate is not the answer, and releasing and decriminalizing is not the answer, what is?
Mass incarceration was the result of soaring crime rates, especially in large cities. The crimes were often associated with drug deals. And the call for action was led, in large part, by law-abiding African-Americans whose neighborhoods had become war zones.
And that led to mass incarcerations, which are not only expensive, but produce people who can't get a job or housing.
The solution--to decriminalize many acts, or turn felonies into misdemeanors, or release people from prison--helps some, surely. But it also leads to soaring crime rates in some communities, and shop lifters with calculators.
When neighborhoods--cities--become victimized by crime, those who can leave. Businesses close. Taxes go down so services are reduced. Jobs disappear. And you end up with another Baltimore.
We need to stop now and ask ourselves what we're doing. If mass incarcerate is not the answer, and releasing and decriminalizing is not the answer, what is?
49
Nothing will change. Liberals will ALWAYS blame "society", "inequality", "privilege" because that's easier than admitting the truth - when blacks have the highest abortion rates, black lives don't matter. When blacks have the highest rate of fatherless homes, black lives don't matter. When the number one cause of death amongst young black men are other young black men, black lives don't matter. When blacks disproportionately commit more crimes than any race and are either in prison, paroled or probation black lives don't matter. Despite trillions in assistance over the past 50 years minorities suffer more than ever - because to liberals they are simply a vote. Black lives don't matter - the vote does. Liberals are a shameful disgrace.
87
Very powerfully put. You may like this brand-new TEDx video by gender expert Warren Farrell:
"The Boy Crisis: A Sobering look at the State of our Boys"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qi1oN1icAYc
"The Boy Crisis: A Sobering look at the State of our Boys"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qi1oN1icAYc
Hew;your observation and point is well taken and well made,I will also suggest that Liberals not only do this to the "blacks' but to every group(or as they choose to"catalog" or "classify" people)they deem down trotted! Their ideology requires the pitting of these groups(whatever they are called,be it Hispanics,Asian,gay,straight,whatever)against each other,this,of course, with them in positions of power deciding who gets what and at what cost( usually votes for the cycle to continue) It is sad that we have liberals thinking this way,and not realizing the consequences of that kind of dependency creation! In their quest for control and power,they decimate freedom and the desire of humanity to improve and get better.They talk a good game concerning freedom,yet their ideology and philosophy enslaves the human spirit in a very deep cycle of dependency and despair,all while they say to themselves "poor (whatever)thing,let ME help you" Their "good intentions" become the anvil that sink those whom they supposedly want to help, and the excuse to repeat the cycle,once reality shows up and the "help" is proven a dismal failure.
3
As a liberal, I agree that nothing has changed and nothing will change, because of your radical conservative movement's lies and character assassination as reflected in this post.
1
There is a recent trend among liberals of viewing prisoners as victims of the system. Many think prisons are filled with harmless drug users who were incarcerated for years because of mandatory minimums, are very possibly innocent, and have been severely mistreated by corrections officers. The problem with that view is that it suggests that rehabilitation is unnecessary since these folks are mostly good, law-abiding people. The fact of the matter is that rehabilitation upon return to Capitol Hill can make the difference between success and failure for those released and any short cuts in the process are like playing with fire.
25
Ta Nehisi Coates has written quite a bit on this subject, and he considers that nearly all black prisoners in the system are there because they were caught with very small personal amounts of marijuana, or with smoking a joint in public.
He is in total denial about gang violence -- drug dealing (hard drugs) -- meth, crack, heroin -- the rapes and the beatings, and the fear in inner city areas -- or the drive-by shooting deaths WEEKLY that make Sandy Hook or Oregon mass shootings look pale in comparison.
We have had about 20 years of declining rates of crime and violence -- and due to the mass incarceration of criminals. Now liberals want to let them all go unpunished, because "they are really nice people, who just want to support their kids and vote, and be good citizens (despite shoplifting, kiting checks, stealing, purse snatching, drug dealing, etc.).
I am on the fence as to whether Ta Nehisi Coates is just a total fool, or a cynical political hack.
He is in total denial about gang violence -- drug dealing (hard drugs) -- meth, crack, heroin -- the rapes and the beatings, and the fear in inner city areas -- or the drive-by shooting deaths WEEKLY that make Sandy Hook or Oregon mass shootings look pale in comparison.
We have had about 20 years of declining rates of crime and violence -- and due to the mass incarceration of criminals. Now liberals want to let them all go unpunished, because "they are really nice people, who just want to support their kids and vote, and be good citizens (despite shoplifting, kiting checks, stealing, purse snatching, drug dealing, etc.).
I am on the fence as to whether Ta Nehisi Coates is just a total fool, or a cynical political hack.
18
You are correct! Liberals see people in groups and groups as victims of one thing or another.Of course,here they come to "help" because "those poor victims" are just "oppressed" and they and only they, are "compassionate" enough to "see" the real problem and they have the "solution". Unintended consequences? who cares?,...their "good intentions" was a "good enough" attempt,whether it works or not!! after all,who are we to judge,right?
4
FBI Director Comey said that he has never, that’s never, seen anyone imprisoned just because they possessed a small amount of marijuana.
Prisoners formally sentenced for “nonviolent” crimes or for “possession” have almost always taken plea bargains because they have, in fact, committed violent or drug sale crimes. Ta Nehisi Coates and Michelle Alexander know this, but they do not tell you.
Prisoners formally sentenced for “nonviolent” crimes or for “possession” have almost always taken plea bargains because they have, in fact, committed violent or drug sale crimes. Ta Nehisi Coates and Michelle Alexander know this, but they do not tell you.
4
I'm liberal on most issues, but Edsall has highlighted the dark side of liberalism which is the crime rates of the late sixties and seventies. Then there are the conservatives who would impoverish us and threaten our health in other ways by constantly trying to steal our Social Security, Medicare and public pensions. Read the GOP candidates policy positions on these issues. These attacks are on Fox and talk radio as well. We seniors need to stay alert, motivated and focused. There are thugs in the streets and thugs in the suites.
52
I am curious. Do you think Social security, Medicare and Public pensions are sustainable? I don't and so I believe we ought to tweek them. Why is that an anathema to you?
5
A liberal criticizing the incarceration of criminals is an individual who has not yet been a victim of crime.
64
There is a VERY old joke, from the mid 60s, that a "conservative is a liberal who has been mugged".
Apparently a lot of folks won't be happy until we go back to the "bad old days" of city violence, muggings and constant crime.
Apparently a lot of folks won't be happy until we go back to the "bad old days" of city violence, muggings and constant crime.
7
And a liberal is a conservative who has been arrested.
4
I read the headline and thought it would be an editorial on Wall Street. Oops. But a very informative editorial. Thanks.
35
We have to demonstrate by example, for our children that punishment is just and that there is no one above law. We cannot have Mr George Bush Jr and Cheney go scot free for their crimes. International crimes. They have got to be answerable for the unfunded wars. Along with our lawmakers who voted for the Iraq war that killed hundreds and thousands of innocent people who were simply living their lives, wrong place, wrong time.
19
Please return your strawman to the cornfield from whence you dragged him
6
We should have gone into Iraq many many years before that due to all of the violations that Saddam had committed perhaps you're too young to remember 9/11 but that's why we went in Afghanistan
3
Sooooo, in your infinite wisdom you would criminalize political acts that were carried out with the proper consultation and votes? Would you prosecute Robert MacNamara and LBJ for the Vietnam war which was built on the Gulf of Tonkin lie? That killed 55,000 young draftees, not volunteers. Why are they less callous in your mind than Boooooooosh and Cheney.
5
The "loss of low-skilled jobs" may be contributing to the concentration of poverty in selected neighborhoods? Perhaps the rush to raise minimum wages contributes to that.
17
If lefty liberals have their way -- and there is a chance they will -- and raise the minimum wage to $15 an hour....then you will see a mass exodus of jobs and employers, especially from high cost urban areas. They will automate and use robotics, and self-serve kiosks and drones -- anything to avoid paying $31,200 to unskilled and often lazy, incompetent workers.
Then what? I hope the lefty liberals have a fallback plan, and not just one where they keep whinging about "George Bush is a war criminal".
Then what? I hope the lefty liberals have a fallback plan, and not just one where they keep whinging about "George Bush is a war criminal".
6
I am all for being aware of the racial and economic roots of crime to reach a just judicial system but once a violent crime has been committed and guilt is established than public safety trumps sociology. The bed rock function of government is to keep the citizenry safe from the violence of others. There are no free punches or stabbings. Steal a loaf of bread or a blanket we can talk about it.
113
I don't think anyone is so hard-hearted they want to punish a starving mother who steals a loaf of bread or a can of baby formula. But we are not talking about those kinds of crimes (and judges have a lot of leeway in sentencing such things).
No, we are talking about people who steal, who mug elderly victims, who deal drugs. When they do steal your stuff, it won't see like such a "minor crime". And often while stealing your stuff, they decide to pistol whip you (just for the heck of it). Or shoot you in the face (so you can't identify them).
Many criminals are high on drugs while committing crimes, so they are actually not evaluating how to be "nice" or even using a calculator to see if they stole exactly the right $950 to avoid prosecution.
Whoever thought this up is a pampered ivory tower fool.
No, we are talking about people who steal, who mug elderly victims, who deal drugs. When they do steal your stuff, it won't see like such a "minor crime". And often while stealing your stuff, they decide to pistol whip you (just for the heck of it). Or shoot you in the face (so you can't identify them).
Many criminals are high on drugs while committing crimes, so they are actually not evaluating how to be "nice" or even using a calculator to see if they stole exactly the right $950 to avoid prosecution.
Whoever thought this up is a pampered ivory tower fool.
11
Correct. The government's only function is to protect private property. If it cannot do that it cannot do anything. Think about central Iraq where ISIS is operating. The Iraqi government cannot protect private property there nor can it do anything else.
4
Back in the 1980s, Irving Kristol said a neo-conservative was a liberal who's been mugged. I guess every generation has to learn that hard truth for themselves.
30
America's middle-class was mugged by a small group of privileged, white males from Washington, D.C. (abetted by Wall Street) by trickle-down economics and the financialization of our economy. Yet, white, middle-class Americans still vote for the thugs who killed their American Dreams. I guess every generation has yet to learn this hard truth for themselves.
I go to the aforementioned neighborhood every Sunday. I hit H Street and 13th every month or so. When posh clashes with the hood sparks will fly. I feel this problem in DC will solve itself. On the corner of C and 8th(Eastern Mkt.) a school was knocked down to make way for more upscale condos. The poor will continue to be squeezed out by higher use values. Eventually there will be no poor in the District. So my suggestion, live with the outcome of your ignorance of the real problems that have been staring you in the face for decades. Buck it up. Soon "they" will be gone, you will have your posh neighborhood to yourself and all will be well. "Taint paradise, put up a parking lot......."
9
It's "pave": Joni Mitchell sang about the destruction of a formerly lush area, which is not what's happening in this area of DC. Anyone who wishes to call H & 13th NE a former paradise is encouraged to Google "DC riots of 1968" and reflect upon what happens when we wait for a problem to "solve itself"...
5
What are you implying the victims of violent crimes in this article actually DID to the residents of these poorer neighborhoods? I mean that honestly. You say "live with the outcomes of your ignorance of the real problems that have been staring you in the face for decades." It's easy for me to point out the definitive crimes of the assault, robbery, sexual assault, etc., but you seem to be making the case that the victims of violent crime are responsible for creating the crime itself. Tit-for-tat, is that it? Every person who is not poor is somehow complicit in the violent crimes of those who are? What does a lack of jobs or wage increases have to do with beating an elderly person? What twisted logic makes the two women who were attacked responsible for whether or not billionaires are taxed to your satisfaction? Your so glibly say "live with the outcome" as if it is of their own making. If you manage to do well for yourself (legally of course) and someone comes to rob you at gun point, would you cheerfully surrender your belongings, allow someone in your family to be sexually assaulted, or killed on the grounds that socioeconomic injustices make it incumbent upon you to "live with" the price of your success? Income inequality was much lower in the 80s and crime nevertheless sky rocketed to levels worse than what we have today. One reason for that is that violent criminals do not consult job metrics in making their decisions. Killers kill for their own reasons.
43
Often times wealthy liberals agitate for policies that they themselves don't have to deal with intimately. The most famous examples are school busing & putting public housing in stable middle class neighborhoods. When those lower down the food chain object these wealthy liberals will wag their fingers about how racist those that object are being.
While I don't like seeing folks getting mugged & assaulted. I think in a small painful way these liberals are getting what many of us have faced for years. Folks having to pull kids out of schools because a certain demographic can't get their kids to keep their hands to themselves. Can't get them ready for school to learn. Having to commute long distances to jobs just to get into a decent school district at an affordable price. Selling homes in once nice neighborhoods because Section 8 tenants have moved in and turned the neighborhood into a nightly episode of 'Cops'.
This is what many of us in America have had to deal with for years, now you might understand where we are coming from.
While I don't like seeing folks getting mugged & assaulted. I think in a small painful way these liberals are getting what many of us have faced for years. Folks having to pull kids out of schools because a certain demographic can't get their kids to keep their hands to themselves. Can't get them ready for school to learn. Having to commute long distances to jobs just to get into a decent school district at an affordable price. Selling homes in once nice neighborhoods because Section 8 tenants have moved in and turned the neighborhood into a nightly episode of 'Cops'.
This is what many of us in America have had to deal with for years, now you might understand where we are coming from.
80
Amen!
Welcome to the real world, ruling elite.
Welcome to the real world, ruling elite.
1
"Folks having to pull kids out of schools because a certain demographic . . . "
And which demographic would that be? I'm going to assume that since 49% of section 8 recipients are white, that you're talking about white households earning less than $20,000/year. The majority of black and hispanic households receiving section 8 live in high poverty neighborhoods and not "once nice neighborhoods." There was a recent article about how difficult it is for people of color to use section 8 outside of high poverty neighborhoods. I mean, there isn't a chance that you're trying to say that an entire race of people don't know how to behave - because that would be pretty racist.
And which demographic would that be? I'm going to assume that since 49% of section 8 recipients are white, that you're talking about white households earning less than $20,000/year. The majority of black and hispanic households receiving section 8 live in high poverty neighborhoods and not "once nice neighborhoods." There was a recent article about how difficult it is for people of color to use section 8 outside of high poverty neighborhoods. I mean, there isn't a chance that you're trying to say that an entire race of people don't know how to behave - because that would be pretty racist.
1
The same debate raged in the 1950s, best encapsulated by the West Side Story song "Officer Krupke," which debated whether teenage gang members needed "a job or a year in the pen." We still don't have the answer.
5
The answer is still a job with a future.
7
"A Conservative is a Liberal who has been mugged"
I agree with one of the people quoted in your article, to paraphrase, we need to fix the underlying problems that cause these young people to bring violence but in the meantime, we have to protect the public.
Whether its the "ferguson effect" or not, escalating violence will ultimately bring a backlash when enough people are impacted.
Let's find a way to treat both the symptoms and the disease.
I agree with one of the people quoted in your article, to paraphrase, we need to fix the underlying problems that cause these young people to bring violence but in the meantime, we have to protect the public.
Whether its the "ferguson effect" or not, escalating violence will ultimately bring a backlash when enough people are impacted.
Let's find a way to treat both the symptoms and the disease.
17
"A Conservative is a Liberal who has been mugged"
And a Liberal is a Conservative whose job is in China.
And a Liberal is a Conservative whose job is in China.
1
So, the reform efforts are aimed at non-violent offenses, and all the crimes you list are violent crimes.
Disingenuous much? One can have the same discussion (societal factors, the right sentencing, treatment of juveniles) about violent crime, of course, but it seems to me that you're misrepresenting the reform movement, at least as I've seen it presented.
Disingenuous much? One can have the same discussion (societal factors, the right sentencing, treatment of juveniles) about violent crime, of course, but it seems to me that you're misrepresenting the reform movement, at least as I've seen it presented.
104
How do you think non-violent drug users fund their habits? Through a steady job? They fund it through theft, larceny etc. Do you think they are above using violence out of some moral sense of duty? You better hope and pray you don't have something a non-violent offender wants badly enough to assault, rob or worse.
Stop being simplistic. The real world is anything but that.
Stop being simplistic. The real world is anything but that.
10
Also as I understand it there has been a national rise in crime not only in states like California. This being so it raises the question of what us driving this. This article also suggests that crime will increase when you take your boot of the neck of the "criminal" class. It also doesn't take into account length of sentence. If the likelihood of being caught is high even if the sentence is relatively light would this be an effective deterrent.
We must learn to deal with crime in our neighborhoods and protect ourselves the best we can. The revolving door prison system is not a deterrent. It is easier to keep the offenders on the streets.
However, don't expect citizens to give up their means of self defense.
However, don't expect citizens to give up their means of self defense.
7
Actually, that is ALSO part of the lefty liberal meme -- not merely let criminals out of jail and turn serious felonies into "misdemeanors" and put thugs and thieves out on the streets in a revolving cycle -- but ALSO undo the Second Amendment and confiscate all guns from private owners.
So you won't just have masses of dysfunctional thieves and drug dealers and muggers and rapists out on the streets -- you also won't have any means of self-defense, except perhaps to wag your finger and whisper "now, that's NOT NICE!"
So you won't just have masses of dysfunctional thieves and drug dealers and muggers and rapists out on the streets -- you also won't have any means of self-defense, except perhaps to wag your finger and whisper "now, that's NOT NICE!"
4
Thanks, excellent column.
Carl Bialik in FiveThirtyEight.com recently compared the homicide figures in 2015 for the same period before Ferguson in 2014:
"The results confirm that there has been an increase in homicides this year in big U.S. cities of about 16 percent."
That's an incremental 482 dead human beings in 2015 compared to 2014. The worst increases in absolute terms have been in:
Baltimore: 77 incremental homicides
St. Louis: 51
Chicago: 50
Milwaukee: 45
Houston: 44
Washington: 32
http://www.unz.com/isteve/538-in-59-biggest-cities-homicides-up-16-in-ye...
Carl Bialik in FiveThirtyEight.com recently compared the homicide figures in 2015 for the same period before Ferguson in 2014:
"The results confirm that there has been an increase in homicides this year in big U.S. cities of about 16 percent."
That's an incremental 482 dead human beings in 2015 compared to 2014. The worst increases in absolute terms have been in:
Baltimore: 77 incremental homicides
St. Louis: 51
Chicago: 50
Milwaukee: 45
Houston: 44
Washington: 32
http://www.unz.com/isteve/538-in-59-biggest-cities-homicides-up-16-in-ye...
22
Those calling for major prison releases speak almost exclusively of the interests of those who have broken the law. Law and order types talk almost exclusively of the interests of the local community. Rule 1 in the dialogue has to be that prisoners and victims both have rights and interests to be considered. There will be no constructive solutions to this problem without taking into account both sides. Accordingly, mass releases of those who committed a particular crime are a bad idea while mass releases of those deemed rehabilitated and ready to return to the community are entirely warranted.
9
.
I think we might at one time have had laws that were based on common sense. But decades of prohibition, wars on drugs, and special interests have steadily moved us away from that. It's time to go back.