Wonder if employee parking areas were covered like a carport with solar panels to provide the charge while the driver is at work all day would work. How many kW hours does it take to recharge these batteries?
2
Here is another reason to move to the Buffalo NY area where we DO have some snow but NO hurricanes,tornadoes, water shortages, major floods,etc etc. Just 4 miles from my home at a local bank parking lot is a Tesla charging station. There are in fact 6 stands for cars and I seldom see more than one car at a time.
2
There is n such thing as free charging. The taxpayers of the city or municipality are paying for some to freeload off the rest of us.
5
Many businesses offer free charging i.e. hotels, restaurants.
3
Oh grow up! Try a well mannered, mature approach. One that is courteous to others, does not involve thinking of keying or otherwise damaging others property even though you are frustrated.
Maybe plan your day better to avoid the issue of charging? Plan your life better? Public transport maybe?
It is wonderful that you have chosen to drive an electric vehicle. BUT, this is emerging product. it will be a while before the infrastructure is in place. In the meantime - you may find a little courtesy (both as the plugged in and the wanting to plug in) will help.
i don't know -- but
Maybe plan your day better to avoid the issue of charging? Plan your life better? Public transport maybe?
It is wonderful that you have chosen to drive an electric vehicle. BUT, this is emerging product. it will be a while before the infrastructure is in place. In the meantime - you may find a little courtesy (both as the plugged in and the wanting to plug in) will help.
i don't know -- but
1
And that is why I purchased a plug in hybrid Chevy Volt and not a pure electric. Worst case scenario is to just pull into a gas station. I have never charged my car anywhere but home.
4
Getting any California to be considerate of others is like asking the current congress to become effective.
3
The problems described are largely related to the limited range of most EV cars on the market, which requires many drivers to charge up during the day. Once ranges go up to a day's worth of driving, something north of 100 miles, most owners will simply charge up overnight at home.
5
She owns an electric BMW and recently had a testy run-in over a charging station with a Tesla driver.
“It’s high time,” she said, “for somebody to tackle the electric-vehicle etiquette problem.”
um, that would be YOU. you, the person on the cutting edge. set the example.
“It’s high time,” she said, “for somebody to tackle the electric-vehicle etiquette problem.”
um, that would be YOU. you, the person on the cutting edge. set the example.
4
Just proves what we all suspected: there are disproportionately more psychopaths and narcissists among electric car owners (Tesla owners ranking first obviously).
7
clearly, you've never driven in florida. ...or new york.
4
It's pretty clear that people who own electric cars think they are helping the earth by "not creating pollution," and therefore entitled to extra perks. But the truth is, generating that electricity that they are using is from coal or hero power, both of which do serious damage to the air and to waterways and the fish and animals who suffer from depleted streams and rivers. They should be educated, like all of us, to see the ramifications from driving a private car, period. Rather than supporting so many plug-in stations, how about supporting more public transportation?
25
This is a flawed agreement. If you are going to include the pollution created when the electricity is produced, then you'll need to include the pollution created when your gasoline was produced.
5
and the pollution used to transport the crude to the refinery, the refined to the pump.
this is why focusing on improving solar tech is so important. the CEO of Shell just said that solar will ultimately be the backbone of the worlds energy.
this is why focusing on improving solar tech is so important. the CEO of Shell just said that solar will ultimately be the backbone of the worlds energy.
1
I particularly applaud Nancy's call for increased support for public transportation. That will remove (and has removed) tens of thousands of cars from the road no matter how they are fueled. I welcome the growing number of hybrid and fuel cell buses in my metropolitan area. The far fewer cars or miles driven, electric or otherwise, better for the environment.
4
I keep a Schrader valve wrench on the stem of my spare. I'd have told that Tesla driver, "If you leave your car here now, it'll have four flat tires when you return to it later."
3
There are two practical solutions. 1. Electric car valet parking. Have attendants at charging stations. Every electric car driver can leave the car with the valet in the morning and retrieve at end of day. Valet can move cars once charged. Creates jobs and eliminates bad behavior. 2. Expensive charging stations are not required at locations where people go to an office for the day. Simple 110 volt outlets will charge most vehicles in the 8 or more hours people are at work. Running simple electric outlets at parking facilities is a less costly and simp,e solution. Save the expensive rapid charging stations for downtown shopping areas or malls.
6
Hi John, the folks over http://zirx.com/ will be doing exactly that...valet parking with EV charging.
3
Tragedy of the commons. Very easy to solve. Simply charge for the time in the parking spots. Charge enough that people will move their cars when charged. Always, the worst places to park in any city are the places where it is free. Other commentor mentioned that the spots should be far away. Also an excellent idea. Of course, once the public charging stations are expensive enough, the hybrid owners and those with extensive range will eschew the spots. The wholly electric dependent ones will then buy a hybrid next time.
11
This reminds me of the paradox of all attempts at social uplift: the doer starts out in love with mankind, but ends up hating men. All humans are messy, selfish, fallible, short-sighted, hedonistic, and greedy, at least some of the time. The do-gooder does not recognize these aspects in himself or herself, and proceeds as if this fantasy of self-perfection can presented to the masses. In its mildest form, the alleged example of self-actualization is ostentatiously presented for emulation; but when others inevitably fail to imitate, then policy, law, or compulsion will be sought.
If you want an electric vehicle (and don't care to question how much pollution is engendered in its production, its disposal one day, or in the generation of the electricity at some remote power plant), then go ahead and get one. But don't think that the use of a scarce resource like a public outlet is going to match your utopian expectations for a green and harmonious future. Better plan on supplying your own power, locked away safely in your own garage, or on paying someone to supply it exclusively to you.
If you want an electric vehicle (and don't care to question how much pollution is engendered in its production, its disposal one day, or in the generation of the electricity at some remote power plant), then go ahead and get one. But don't think that the use of a scarce resource like a public outlet is going to match your utopian expectations for a green and harmonious future. Better plan on supplying your own power, locked away safely in your own garage, or on paying someone to supply it exclusively to you.
15
I think the manufacturers of EVs could design the cars to allow them to share chargers. They should put a charge plug on both sides of the vehicle and set it up so that one car could plug into the EV next to it. The charge station could be programmed to charge whichever vehicle has been there the longest first and the next and so on and people would have to carry a jumper cord with them and show a little courtesy. But, is that to much to ask to charge up for free?
4
This is outrages how come California hasn't even thought of regulating or creating new laws to protect electric car owners. I do agree on charging customers to recharge their cars but with the guarantee of no one taking there spot. Also, electric companies should work with the local governments or gas stations to build more recharge stations faster. Maybe these electric cars owners can install solar power panels on their cars to recharge the car anywhere.
My employer installed four charging stations early this year (and has wired our garage for another 8). We need a ChargePoint account to use the stations and we can charge for up to 4 hours at $.75/hour; after that, the rate goes up to $3/hour to encourage us to move our cars. Signage on the parking spaces indicates a 4-hour parking maximum as well -- and we must link our ChargePoint accounts to our cellphones to get a notification when our cars are done charging. It is working well; we self-police and move our cars out of the spaces so that other drivers can charge their cars. Takes a good system/good policies AND good behavior but it can work.
40
Interesting article but somewhat breathless about a minor issue, and apparently poorly researched. Especially as on September 30th the INL released a comprehensive report which noted: "The analysis revealed that PEV private owners performed an average of more than 85 percent of charging at home." https://www.inl.gov/article/electric-vehicle-charging-habits-revealed/
The INL report goes on to say that the second most common area for charging was the workplace, and the third was a very small percentage of unusually popular public charging stations. Clearly, any issues concerning those public charging stations is a trivial concern for the overwhelming majority of EV charging. Not really worthy concern for the ordinary EV owner, nor of the NYT. It's certainly not front page stuff.
The INL report goes on to say that the second most common area for charging was the workplace, and the third was a very small percentage of unusually popular public charging stations. Clearly, any issues concerning those public charging stations is a trivial concern for the overwhelming majority of EV charging. Not really worthy concern for the ordinary EV owner, nor of the NYT. It's certainly not front page stuff.
8
The article does not distinguish between slow vs fast charger. It's only discussing slow charger. Entire problem with crowded charging is due to low price with free charging causing most problem. Workplace charging is free AND it's only L2 (not fast charge), which makes problem far worse. This won't be an issue when more fast chargers are made available and not free.
If there's pay-to-charge and fast charge, there wouldn't be a problem. But several EV makers give out free fast charge, making problem awful for people who only need 15 minutes of fast charging to have to wait 2 hours. This is especially problematic with crappy EV like Nissan Leaf.
http://sparkev.blogspot.com/2015/10/free-charging-sucks.html
If there's pay-to-charge and fast charge, there wouldn't be a problem. But several EV makers give out free fast charge, making problem awful for people who only need 15 minutes of fast charging to have to wait 2 hours. This is especially problematic with crappy EV like Nissan Leaf.
http://sparkev.blogspot.com/2015/10/free-charging-sucks.html
U.S. scientists, Energy Department (U.S. Government) and selected state governments are solving several technology, regulatory and operational issues in sustainable technologies. California and other Pacific North-west states are leaders as is New York (NYSERDA) and other eastern states in funding research and demonstrations in clean power generation and related technologies.
New York state alone invested over $1 Billion to bring renewable energy companies to Western NY with funding of Solarworld and other renewable energy companies to create good jobs in Buffalo's manufacturing sector.
I think the United States will win this war against global climate change. Most scientific research and development will prove that applied science supported by basic research can solve most of our environmental and standard or living challenges. The next generations will see a major transformation from Oil-dominated energy, a key foundation to contemporary civilization, to newer cleaner ways and means to achieve cleaner and lower cost power (all costs determined). And generate and use electricity more wisely.
I think that fairness in debate requires examination of facts and circumstances framed within enlightened reason. One fact that is generally well known and agreed is that the pursuit of oil security has gotten the United States and her allies involved in unresolved middle east conflict that has become a death trap and multi-billion dollar sink-hole.
New York state alone invested over $1 Billion to bring renewable energy companies to Western NY with funding of Solarworld and other renewable energy companies to create good jobs in Buffalo's manufacturing sector.
I think the United States will win this war against global climate change. Most scientific research and development will prove that applied science supported by basic research can solve most of our environmental and standard or living challenges. The next generations will see a major transformation from Oil-dominated energy, a key foundation to contemporary civilization, to newer cleaner ways and means to achieve cleaner and lower cost power (all costs determined). And generate and use electricity more wisely.
I think that fairness in debate requires examination of facts and circumstances framed within enlightened reason. One fact that is generally well known and agreed is that the pursuit of oil security has gotten the United States and her allies involved in unresolved middle east conflict that has become a death trap and multi-billion dollar sink-hole.
4
The most entitled of the most entitled, judging who should get charged and when. Pretty funny.
6
Why would there be a shortage of charging stations? Let's think about that a second. If I were a company wanting to demonstrate my "greenness", I might put up a couple but, since I would be paying for the increased power consumption, I might not want to put up a lot of them, especially if it might draw non employees or non customers. Electric utilities, themselves, might want to put them up, but they would expect to get paid for the power.
This undoubtedly just comes down to the basic question of who is going to pay for the power. Electric charging stations with meters that accept credit cards would seem to be the obvious solution. Shouldn't be hard to do.
My guess: this entire story is about squabbling over free juice. It's the equivalent of the scrum you can set off by throwing dollar bills out of a helicopter.
This undoubtedly just comes down to the basic question of who is going to pay for the power. Electric charging stations with meters that accept credit cards would seem to be the obvious solution. Shouldn't be hard to do.
My guess: this entire story is about squabbling over free juice. It's the equivalent of the scrum you can set off by throwing dollar bills out of a helicopter.
13
I have not observed this problem personally, and I live in the Southern California beach cities. I do see many Leafs, Teslas, Volts, plug-in Priuses, and so on around town.
We must move in this direction because electric power can come from wind, solar, and geothermal. The gas that powers most vehicles cannot. Furthermore, gas engines are notoriously inefficient compared even to carbon-based power plants, which should be phasing out.
Road noise consists of tire noise, wind noise, and engine noise. That last item is essentially zero with electric cars. Imagine your streets without the noise of accelerating internal combustion engines.
My car has about a 40-mile range, and that is almost always sufficient. It has a backup onboard gas-powered generator that I rarely use. For example, it must be used to travel to the mountains. A typical 200-mile mountain round-trip from sea level to 6,200 feet takes about 4.5 gallons of gas. I wish that we had better technology and am satisfied that we will have it sooner rather than later.
We must move in this direction because electric power can come from wind, solar, and geothermal. The gas that powers most vehicles cannot. Furthermore, gas engines are notoriously inefficient compared even to carbon-based power plants, which should be phasing out.
Road noise consists of tire noise, wind noise, and engine noise. That last item is essentially zero with electric cars. Imagine your streets without the noise of accelerating internal combustion engines.
My car has about a 40-mile range, and that is almost always sufficient. It has a backup onboard gas-powered generator that I rarely use. For example, it must be used to travel to the mountains. A typical 200-mile mountain round-trip from sea level to 6,200 feet takes about 4.5 gallons of gas. I wish that we had better technology and am satisfied that we will have it sooner rather than later.
5
There is something wonderfully American about electric car drivers buying their cars "for the greater good" and then acting like selfish jerks.
20
Hide all the charging spaces in out-of-the-way places. When one is found the finder could keep it a secret. Or they could sell the information by auction to someone with a need for it.
I'm not being serious. I'm being as ridiculous as some of these people.
I'm not being serious. I'm being as ridiculous as some of these people.
2
What a great problem to have. The growth of a class vehicles that have zero tail-pipe emissions. An obvious first step for a fix is to require parking facilities to require a higher ratio of charging outlets for each space provided.
3
Before simply adding more chargers, all public charging spots need to have a fee equal or close to gasoline (so those with gas backup and/or half full batteries won't bother) and standard signage that reads "Parking while charging only, 4 hour max (or 2 in some cases), violators ticketed or towed"
They may not have tail pipe emissions, but they most certainly have smoke stack emissions unless it's a hydro area, which is very rare. This does not solve the problems, and there are many.
4
On the southbound Merritt Parkway in June in Greenwich, I saw all of the several EV charging stations at the rest stop being used by non-electric cars.
4
Help is on the way for California's electric vehicle owners with plans for tens of thousands of new charging stations! California's landmark climate change bill, SB350 was signed by Governor Brown this past week on 10.7.2015. The bill's author, California Senate President pro Tempore Kevin de León. said that SB350 makes the infrastructure and accessibility of charging stations a core mission of the state's utilities. Southern California Edison will be installing the infrastructure for 30,000 new EV charging stations over the next five years, and the other two utilities also have plans to install the infrastructure for thousands of charging stations.
5
40 years on & quondam Gov. Moonbeam still leads the way...
2
The non electric car owning ratepayers must be absolutely thrilled that they are providing yet another subsidy to the EV owners.
In what way is this "yet another subsidy" to EV owners? Are SoCalEd and the other two utilities not going to charge for the electricity?
1
What is idiotic is not having an industry standard. The Tesla chargers are numerous yet always empty because nobody else can use them.
4
Sounds like it is time for someone to come up with an after-marker converter.
1
We saw a Tesla on the road towards Paris today. Our daughter thought it was so cool: a car without a tailpipe! I don't know why there aren't more electric cars here in France since gasoline (and diesel; most people use diesel, called "Gazole" in French) costs about twice what it does in the US.
The Tesla, before the VAT, costs $100,000. That may be discouraging some people.
2
The article doesn't mention (but an occasional commentator has parenthetically notes) that Tesla provides free charging to its customers at over 100 stations with an average of about six chargers per station).
As to unplugging, it can't be done unless you have a key.
As to the time it takes, you can get an adequate (sorry, don't know the number) boost in 10-15 minutes. Thirty minutes will give you about 170 miles.
I have no intention to promote Tesla, but it seems these facts should be reported when it comes to raising "sparks."
As to unplugging, it can't be done unless you have a key.
As to the time it takes, you can get an adequate (sorry, don't know the number) boost in 10-15 minutes. Thirty minutes will give you about 170 miles.
I have no intention to promote Tesla, but it seems these facts should be reported when it comes to raising "sparks."
1
it'll be interesting to see if the tesla model 3 uses the same plug as the model s. Eg, will the folks who can shell out $100k for a car have to rub elbows with the hoi polloi spending only $35k?
Green cars are a hoax, but I have to say it is hilarious to watch liberals eat each other over electricity. Solution is simple: Install pay per 15 minute chargers with differential pricing for busy times.
5
Hoax? Liberals?? Don't simply Rush to conclusions with sunstantiation. ;)
In reality, many self-identified Conservatives drive electric to use American energy/reduce dependence on foreign oil/not send $ to rogue regimes and extemism they fund...or simple to have a better driving vehicle that also saves them $ on fuel and maintenance.
I do agree though that paid charging is part of the solution, to discourage PHEVs and well-charged BEVs from using the spots.
In reality, many self-identified Conservatives drive electric to use American energy/reduce dependence on foreign oil/not send $ to rogue regimes and extemism they fund...or simple to have a better driving vehicle that also saves them $ on fuel and maintenance.
I do agree though that paid charging is part of the solution, to discourage PHEVs and well-charged BEVs from using the spots.
2
A hoax? Bull. In 2025 you'll see electric and plugin hybrids to be significantly more numerous than they are now. It's the natural evolution of the automobile, no doubt. Even hydrogen cars have an electric drivetrain.
Tesla has its own supercharging network that is incompatible with any other car except Tesla. Never had a problem. The article makes it appear as if Tesla owners are hogging conventional charging stations, utter nonsense. A conventional charging station is slow and generally cost $, Tesla supercharging is free.
After almost five years and over 50K miles of driving an EV, I think one very important point is missing from this article. Most EV drivers never have any need to use a public charging station because they have a charger at home — it's like having your own gas station. Every morning you leave with a full battery. With my first EV, a Nissan Leaf, I'd need a public charger maybe once a month. My current EV, a RAV4 EV, has a larger battery, so I haven't used a public charger yet in almost two years of driving. The number of public chargers will be less and less of an issue as battery capacity grows.
13
A simple solution is to require a credit card to activate charging. Whether it is free, almost free or with real cost, the card will generate a record of users. This way if someone prematurely unplugs someone's car the card record would show who had done that. This will act as deterrent to would be abusers.
In addition, the charging plug should automatically spring out of the socket when the car is fully charged. This will clearly show that is available to others.
In addition, the charging plug should automatically spring out of the socket when the car is fully charged. This will clearly show that is available to others.
9
Your second idea sounds great but the first one would mean you would someone to police that and that means hiring someone and than what are the consequences?
I applaud the people who are trying to do the best with what we have, to keep the environment clean. We will get there. As time goes on, we will probably do away with batteries altogether. wouldn't it be nice to have a solar powered car? The electric cars are perfect for our urban areas where it seems like fewer cars on the road is key to moving forward. We are in love with our independence that is for sure, but sharing ( you know, that thing we learned in kindergarten) is key to survival. Even the animals know that. ( :
3
Seemingly "impossible" on-board 24/7 recharge for electric cars is under development.
Fuel-Free Engines have been invented. They will run 24/7 on Atmospheric Heat, a vast untapped source of solar energy larger than all of Earth’s fossil fuels. A converted Ford engine proved the concept. See: aesopinstitute.org
A small Brigg-& Stratton example is being converted as a prototype. Similar engines can be installed in electric cars to provide a continuous recharge.
Cars, trucks and buses so equipped will be mobile power plants. They can supply power to a home or business.
When suitably parked they could sell power to utilities. As these systems evolve, they may open a path to vehicles that pay for themselves.
In 1900, Nikola Tesla believed an engine that tapped that huge untapped source of energy would be the most important engine ever developed. He visualized this as “the ideal way of obtaining motive power” from the sun; an endless source of clean energy, available everywhere, 24 hours a day.
"Challenges to The Second Law of Thermodynamics from research groups focus on those most amenable to laboratory test. The most significant result appears to be the recyclability of environmental heat into usable work. The thermal energy content of the atmosphere, ocean, and upper crust is estimated to be more than 10,000 times that of the world's fossil fuel reserves, making it a potentially inexhaustible reservoir of green energy." Prof Daniel Sheehan U San Diego
Fuel-Free Engines have been invented. They will run 24/7 on Atmospheric Heat, a vast untapped source of solar energy larger than all of Earth’s fossil fuels. A converted Ford engine proved the concept. See: aesopinstitute.org
A small Brigg-& Stratton example is being converted as a prototype. Similar engines can be installed in electric cars to provide a continuous recharge.
Cars, trucks and buses so equipped will be mobile power plants. They can supply power to a home or business.
When suitably parked they could sell power to utilities. As these systems evolve, they may open a path to vehicles that pay for themselves.
In 1900, Nikola Tesla believed an engine that tapped that huge untapped source of energy would be the most important engine ever developed. He visualized this as “the ideal way of obtaining motive power” from the sun; an endless source of clean energy, available everywhere, 24 hours a day.
"Challenges to The Second Law of Thermodynamics from research groups focus on those most amenable to laboratory test. The most significant result appears to be the recyclability of environmental heat into usable work. The thermal energy content of the atmosphere, ocean, and upper crust is estimated to be more than 10,000 times that of the world's fossil fuel reserves, making it a potentially inexhaustible reservoir of green energy." Prof Daniel Sheehan U San Diego
1
Yes, there is a tremendous amount of energy in the crust, the atmosphere and everywhere as environmental heat. No, it can't be gainfully used. In order for heat to be used, there must be an area of high temperature for the heat to be transferred to lower temperature.
This is just basic physics even though some would have you believe there are exceptions.
This is just basic physics even though some would have you believe there are exceptions.
4
See SECOND LAW SURPRISES at aesopinstitute.org for several exceptions.
The conversion of a Ford engine filled with propane as a refrigerant demonstrated that the difference in temperature can be created internal to an engine, allowing fuel-free operation.
Experiment always trumps theory!
The history of science is replete with numerous examples of "impossible" technologies that reflected nothing but our ignorance - and the ease with which dogma arises where it is theoretically unwelcome.
The Wright Brothers were a glorious example. This newspaper refused to recognize the achievement until 1908. Five years after the flight at Kitty Hawk.
A more recent example is Cold Fusion (LENR) which has now been validated in more than 100 laboratories. Included are NASA and the Navy. See lenr-canr.org for numerous examples.
The conversion of a Ford engine filled with propane as a refrigerant demonstrated that the difference in temperature can be created internal to an engine, allowing fuel-free operation.
Experiment always trumps theory!
The history of science is replete with numerous examples of "impossible" technologies that reflected nothing but our ignorance - and the ease with which dogma arises where it is theoretically unwelcome.
The Wright Brothers were a glorious example. This newspaper refused to recognize the achievement until 1908. Five years after the flight at Kitty Hawk.
A more recent example is Cold Fusion (LENR) which has now been validated in more than 100 laboratories. Included are NASA and the Navy. See lenr-canr.org for numerous examples.
What this says to me is that for electric cars, fuel cells, not batteries, is the long term solution. The ergonomics and logistics of public recharging doesn't look like it will scale up smoothly. Problem number 1: It takes too long. Problem number 2: Because of number 1, people are not willing to wait so when they don'tt vacate the charging station promptly, they clog up what is already a congested charge-up queue.
1
Batteries will get better, we should be able to get about double the energy density than we have now, no problem. Maybe more. Pure electric gives more freedom on where that energy comes from versus hydrogen-electric.
Forget about climate change and whether or not it exists. Forget about whether or not plug-in electric cars may, or may not be better for the environment more or less. These issues are irrelevant to the challenge of having enough charging stations to go around. If this article was about people fighting over gas pumps we wouldn't be debating if VW beetles or Hummers are better for the environment. EVs are fun to drive and cheap to operate. Their prices are becoming more affordable while their range continues to improve. Sales have been down recently, although the overall trend is still up over previous years. EVs are getting more popular as more people drive them and they aren't going away. You are going to see more of them on your streets and in your neighborhood. Get over it.
Most new EV drivers feel the need to plug in every time they see a charger. It's range anxiety anccd
Most new EV drivers feel the need to plug in every time they see a charger. It's range anxiety anccd
4
Part of the reason that other electric owners disdain Tesla owners using public chargers is that Tesla owners have exclusive free access to the company's 2,983 Superchargers located at 527 stations, including 34 in California. A Tesla Supercharger provides up to 170 miles of range in 30 minutes while the average public charger provides 10.
1
As noted, almost everyone has a home charger so that adds another 150,000 or so charging stations and some people have made their home charging stations available to the public via services like PlugShare. Furthermore, we (and many people we know) have solar panels on their homes so we are charging our cars from a green electrical source. Plus we've installed chargers at my mother-in-law's in San Francisco and our rental property in Santa Cruz as "range extenders" for our electric car which allow us to go on 100+ mile trips without public charger availability and range anxiety. But the bottom line is that there are too few public chargers (something that PG&E has put forth a proposal to address) and it can be a crap shoot to find an available charger at an airport or large SF city parking lot.
2
Unless you are charging your car during the day, you are not charging from a green electrical source.
Why does the Times inflate the price of a Tesla from $70k to $100k in such articles? A >40% increase is highly misleading. Virtually all cars come with a variety of options, all of which increase the sticker price, but why not quote the 'base' price as is traditionally done in this context?
I guess this goes hand in hand with referring to Tesla as "the money losing electric car company" as the Times did in the article about the Model X roll out. At least in that case, they quoted the Model S price as "around $90k" - only off by the price of a lightly used Prius.
I guess the part I fail to understand is why reporting on the auto industry should be so partisan, slanted and willfully uninformed. Can anyone explain?
Thanks!
I guess this goes hand in hand with referring to Tesla as "the money losing electric car company" as the Times did in the article about the Model X roll out. At least in that case, they quoted the Model S price as "around $90k" - only off by the price of a lightly used Prius.
I guess the part I fail to understand is why reporting on the auto industry should be so partisan, slanted and willfully uninformed. Can anyone explain?
Thanks!
11
the $70k Tesla is a unicorn; a mythological creature. Go into a Tesla showroom and try to buy one.
Agreed. According to the Tesla website, the basic Tesla Model S 4-door sedan sells for $75,000. Factor in a $7500 Federal tax rebate and (in MA) a $2500 incentive and you're at $65,000. Not to mention free recharging at Tesla charging stations. Nowhere near $100,000 (and less than many Porsche models). Is there no fact checking at the NYT these days?
Do you have any evidence of the average selling price for a Tesla. There are very few sold at the base selling price, so it is irrelevant.
1
This article is based totally on a small handful of anecdotes, without any systematic research. Based on my personal experience it is a gross exaggeration - typical sloppy journalism intended to portray a minor problem in the worst light. Yes we need to do a better job, but let's have a more realistic analysis. I recently visited a Tesla supercharging station in NoCal. All ten charging stations were empty when I got there.
9
It is difficult enough to put in charging stations required as part of commercial development, but to then have EV drivers keying cars and going postal over a plug seems over the top. Come ON Man !
How many have keyed cars?
We just drove our Leaf to the movies to see "The Martian." The plot of the film didn't do much for me ("Apollo 13" had the advantage of having actually happened, and its 70's era characters seemed more authentic). However watching Matt Damon waiting by his Rover while it got charged by its 12 solar panels reminded me of the challenges highlighted in this article and its comments. Talk about range anxiety!
1
Venter suggests transmitting our genomes to Colonia Martialis, there to be 3D-printed as dopplegangers [plant/animal biomes would accelerate terraformation]...no law of physics prevents, but he admits tek wont be ready til 2030 CE...hang in.
As range increases on non-Teslas this issue will ease. We rarely recharge anywhere but at home. It isn't necessary. The GM Bolt is purported to have a 200 mile range, far better than the oldest' Leafs 60-80.
Teslas has a phone app you can check to see if the charging is complete. Not moving your car is purely human rudeness and nothing to do with EVs per se.
Teslas has a phone app you can check to see if the charging is complete. Not moving your car is purely human rudeness and nothing to do with EVs per se.
5
The greatest thing the government can do to encourage electric cars is to make solar powered charge stations available at ALL state rest areas along the freeway and most public parks. This would encourage and enable more distance travel by electronic cars.
14
Are the EV owners willing to pony up the cost? It would be easy enough to do. When you register your EV, you get popped for an additional surcharge to pay for one tenth of the cost of a charging station. The surcharge goes away when there is a sufficient number of charging stations. Or in areas with toll roads, EVs could be surcharged on their tolls.
1
Why don't I feel sorry for these people? Can anyone tell me?
4
Yes the same reason most don't. Because it's a self-invented complaint by do-gooders in a news source about a scarce and difficult world.
1
Reality is catching up with electric vehicles.
They have a lot to offer, but also major issues. It takes a few minutes to fill a gasoline vehicle at a gas station, and hours to charge an electric vehicle, assuming one can find a parking spot with an outlet. This is unlikely to change, even as technology improves, and puts a real damper on all-electric vehicles.
And, as other have pointed out, electric vehicles are not pollution free - the electricity has to come from somewhere. Probably there's a lot less pollution generated producing that electricity that driving a typical gas-fueled vehicle, but it's still a cost, and one almost never sees it mentioned in the hype over electric cars. And, let's not forget the environmental (and financial) costs of replacing the battery packs.
Electric vehicles cost more that gasoline cars; this cost is masked by government subsidies, but as electric vehicles become popular, these costs become an issue. And the implicit cost of allowing electrics vehicles to use HOV lanes on public highways must be factored in as well.
Personally, I think that a new technology will be needed, perhaps hydrogen fueled vehicles and fuel cells, but we're not there yet.
Until then, hybrid plug-ins, that are charged at home, and can run for 20 or so miles on one charge, but then switch to gas (with great mileage, since they are hybrids), is a nice interim solution.
Also, lets not forget that small, affordable, gas only vehicles exist that get great mileage.
They have a lot to offer, but also major issues. It takes a few minutes to fill a gasoline vehicle at a gas station, and hours to charge an electric vehicle, assuming one can find a parking spot with an outlet. This is unlikely to change, even as technology improves, and puts a real damper on all-electric vehicles.
And, as other have pointed out, electric vehicles are not pollution free - the electricity has to come from somewhere. Probably there's a lot less pollution generated producing that electricity that driving a typical gas-fueled vehicle, but it's still a cost, and one almost never sees it mentioned in the hype over electric cars. And, let's not forget the environmental (and financial) costs of replacing the battery packs.
Electric vehicles cost more that gasoline cars; this cost is masked by government subsidies, but as electric vehicles become popular, these costs become an issue. And the implicit cost of allowing electrics vehicles to use HOV lanes on public highways must be factored in as well.
Personally, I think that a new technology will be needed, perhaps hydrogen fueled vehicles and fuel cells, but we're not there yet.
Until then, hybrid plug-ins, that are charged at home, and can run for 20 or so miles on one charge, but then switch to gas (with great mileage, since they are hybrids), is a nice interim solution.
Also, lets not forget that small, affordable, gas only vehicles exist that get great mileage.
5
Who ever claimed that electric cars were pollution free? Everyone knows they aren't magic, the electricity had to come from somewhere. However energy produced at large, centralized plants is far cleaner and more efficient than a small engine so EVs are much cheaper to fuel and do result in less pollution.
You propose hydrogen as a better solution than electricity but do you realize that hydrogen, like electricity, has to come from somewhere? That has all of the same problems as electric vehicles except for potentially faster refueling.
You propose hydrogen as a better solution than electricity but do you realize that hydrogen, like electricity, has to come from somewhere? That has all of the same problems as electric vehicles except for potentially faster refueling.
The evironmental impact of powering an electric car is a lot less than a gas car, even if the grid is completely dirty where you are charging from. http://mediamatters.org/research/2012/02/08/myths-and-facts-about-electr...
The battery packs, you'll find that new battery packs will be made increasingly largely from recycled materials so we won't be mining the material for all battery packs. Also the older battery packs that aren't good enough to be in an electric car anymore, can be used in the grid to buffer energy to make it more efficient, until it's really old. Then shredded, recycled.
The battery packs, you'll find that new battery packs will be made increasingly largely from recycled materials so we won't be mining the material for all battery packs. Also the older battery packs that aren't good enough to be in an electric car anymore, can be used in the grid to buffer energy to make it more efficient, until it's really old. Then shredded, recycled.
easy fix. install timers that go off at 2-3 hours and take a photo of the car charging $10/hour for each extra hour parking there. charging should not be a right or free, those days are over
3
More fun fix: you get a text message 30 minutes before your car is fully charged and a 10 minute warning. As soon as your car is fully charged, it starts discharging (loud alarm plus flashing lights go off).
Folks stating that electric cars are really no cleaner are missing the bigger picture. Electric cars can be 100% clean if the source of the electricity is also from renewables which, in many instances, now is an option. With a gas car, there is no option but to always be non-renewable and polluting. Dismissive comments about electric cars being somehow no better for the future are either misguided or politically motivated.
18
No car can be '100% clean.' You are forgetting the rubber deposited on the road--and washed into nearby sewers, rivers and streams--from tires, oil from leaks, refrigerant from cooling systems, and so forth.
All the cars located in the same place. What's missing here is a piece of technology to allow solar recharging. This would be an array, say on the hill across the street from Google, that would provide power to recharge all those vehicles, and probably the whole town. Solar should be designed for daytime activities first--recharging vehicles, heating hot water, etc. This would not require battery back up. Users would simply adjust their schedules. The other missing link is mandatory hook up to the grid, giving back-up power to users and supplying power to PG&E (or a publicly owned utility to replace them). Batteries, wind, and computer technology will eventually smooth out the delivery.
What is important now is to get going on this. In a lecture yesterday, i learned that a San Rafael company has made solar installation easy. The panels support themselves, snap together and are installed and grounded easily. The price of the panels is now cheaper than fossil fuels, when taking into account all the external costs (GW/CC) of burning fossil fuels.
The biggest impediment is fossil fuel companies. They have been lying about the science. I have also just learned that Exxon has been supporting ALEC, i.e. we can also thank them for all those new "let gun nuts kill as many people as they can" gun laws. The Republican state legislators run this in with Christian fundamentalism. Christianity should include Compassion for all living things, including humans (this is Sunday).
What is important now is to get going on this. In a lecture yesterday, i learned that a San Rafael company has made solar installation easy. The panels support themselves, snap together and are installed and grounded easily. The price of the panels is now cheaper than fossil fuels, when taking into account all the external costs (GW/CC) of burning fossil fuels.
The biggest impediment is fossil fuel companies. They have been lying about the science. I have also just learned that Exxon has been supporting ALEC, i.e. we can also thank them for all those new "let gun nuts kill as many people as they can" gun laws. The Republican state legislators run this in with Christian fundamentalism. Christianity should include Compassion for all living things, including humans (this is Sunday).
2
Why not put solar panels on the top of the cars?
1
They nailed the hierarchy issue...plug-in hybrid drivers should stay away from EV charging spots. Their cars are dirtier than the most efficient gas-only cars once you factor in the pollution that is generated during the manufacturing of plug-in hybrids' TWO power trains.
As an EV owner, it's interesting to see preening, smug hybrid owners who didn't get the memo telling them their more a part of the problem than the solution.
Prius petroleum scorchers!
As an EV owner, it's interesting to see preening, smug hybrid owners who didn't get the memo telling them their more a part of the problem than the solution.
Prius petroleum scorchers!
2
Actually, life cycle research shows that what you claimed about plug in hybrids having greater manufacturing impact than battery only PEVs false; both have lower % life cycle impacts but PHEVs are actually less because the batteries are smaller. Refer to the research linked, pages 7 and 8. And life cycle impacts of conventional gasoline only compact cars are of course greater than either PHEVs or BEVs because of the ICE's polluting 160,000 fueling cycle.
Also, the best solutions to keeping PHEVs (and BEVs that don't need a charge) away from stations is ensuring they all have a fee close to the cost of gas and nor free; as well as enforced signage that says "Parking while charging only, 2/4 hour maximum, violators will be ticketed or towed"
Otherwise, it's basic first come, first served, etiquitte, so if with a low battery you find a charging Chevy Volt or Ford Energi in "your" spot, suck up your entitlement and maybe come to the realization that you aren't using your BEV correctly...or you simply bought the wrong car. :)
http://www.environment.ucla.edu/media/files/BatteryElectricVehicleLCA201...
Also, the best solutions to keeping PHEVs (and BEVs that don't need a charge) away from stations is ensuring they all have a fee close to the cost of gas and nor free; as well as enforced signage that says "Parking while charging only, 2/4 hour maximum, violators will be ticketed or towed"
Otherwise, it's basic first come, first served, etiquitte, so if with a low battery you find a charging Chevy Volt or Ford Energi in "your" spot, suck up your entitlement and maybe come to the realization that you aren't using your BEV correctly...or you simply bought the wrong car. :)
http://www.environment.ucla.edu/media/files/BatteryElectricVehicleLCA201...
2
If the plugin hybrids last 300K+ that'll be a non issue. Yes a few battery packs changes but the old battery packs are recycled. Priuses are very reliable, you're a newb. http://mediamatters.org/research/2012/02/08/myths-and-facts-about-electr...
1
The bottom line: It is easy to get used to "entitlements." Since it is largely leftists who buy electric cars and since leftists are the biggest supporters of "entitlements" (funded by taxpayers of course), it is hardly a surprise.
3
The solution is rather simple. Have an apparatus similar to (but much simpler than) the transmission interlock on nearly every car, that firmly locks the plug into the charging car's port and then releases the lock once the car is fully charged (of course it can also be released on a partial charge by pushing a button inside the car).
And throw the book at anyone who parks a non-electric vehicle, including including plug-in hybrids, in a charging space reserved for EVs, and tow them away fast.
And throw the book at anyone who parks a non-electric vehicle, including including plug-in hybrids, in a charging space reserved for EVs, and tow them away fast.
8
You wish, Governor Moonbeam has already thrown that book away. The state is now run by parolees, violent illegal aliens, little boys who like to use women's restrooms and forest managers who don't like to harvest diseased timber.
1
Telsa's "charge port" locks the charging cable in position when the car is locked.
1
If you are using a washer or dryer in a public laundromat, and you are not present when your wash or drying is done, there is a very good chance someone waiting for the washer or dryer will have removed your clothes - rightly so. I think it should be the same for electric cars when they are done charging.
5
Soon nuclear power cars will be here and you will not have to "fill up" for five hundred years! A future that is too cheap to meter for all. Cars powered by compressed air might be helpful and much cheaper too!
Dan: "Soon" you say for nuk-u-lar cars. Sarcasm, right? You are channeling Homer Simpson, right?
"Our children will enjoy in their homes electrical energy too cheap to meter." That promise was made by Walter Marshall in the UK in 1954. We can see how well that unscheduled "dust-up at Little Fuki" over yonder in Japan is working out. You must be talking about Harry Shearer and "Le Show" on the radio: he talks about "Our Friend The Atom" all the time!
"Our children will enjoy in their homes electrical energy too cheap to meter." That promise was made by Walter Marshall in the UK in 1954. We can see how well that unscheduled "dust-up at Little Fuki" over yonder in Japan is working out. You must be talking about Harry Shearer and "Le Show" on the radio: he talks about "Our Friend The Atom" all the time!
1
Indeed, Chrysler's Plutonium SX is already in the re-production stage. They just haven't figured out which part of the ocean to dump them in when they break down.
1
Your point?
According to the article "there is roughly one public charger for every 10 electric vehicles " and this seems to be too few. This compares with about one gas/diesel pump for every 750 vehicles. So if everyone drove a electric car we would need to convert times as much space to charging stations as is take up by gas pumps. One wonders if there would be enough room for any Starbucks coffee shops.
2
Except...most EV owners charge at home.
1
This statistic really shows how much energy is in a tank of gas! The power of internal combustion engines has been improved by the best industrial designers for 100 years - no wonder that they work so well. If we're going to address fuel shortages, emissions, etc., what we really need to do is just drive less.
2
You would need more electric charging stations than fuel pumps, however you would need less space dedicated to refueling overall since electric chargers can be put anywhere. It doesn't use any additional space to add electric charging stations to already existing parking spots.
1
This is a great problem to have.
The fear markets hand job will remedy this promptly. Just as it did in the early oughts for Hydrogen stations in Cali.
This is the beauty of California - the dirty hippies there quickly embrace these things we all know will become mainstream once the average Joe gets over himself.
The fear markets hand job will remedy this promptly. Just as it did in the early oughts for Hydrogen stations in Cali.
This is the beauty of California - the dirty hippies there quickly embrace these things we all know will become mainstream once the average Joe gets over himself.
2
Well one part of the many problems here can be partly solved by charging some fee the public charging stations. That would get rid of these some of the opportunists. Plus we could put the money in a transportation fund. Cause these vehicles are driving on the same roads.
Another problem here is the Police are going to have to start enforcing these laws. I always see cars parked in handicapped spots that should not be there. And more than a few times right in front of police officers. So they are going to have to watch for this now, which they probably won't want to do. And to tell the truth in places where they have lots of calls it will be hard for them.
One more thing. If there was some way for people with electric cars to know where all the charging spots are in the area that they are traveling in, that might help. Like some app or button they got push to get that info easily. I would suspect, I am not sure, that some chargers in small towns might be more open. Just a guess though.
Lots of stuff to tackle, but it's worth it.
Another problem here is the Police are going to have to start enforcing these laws. I always see cars parked in handicapped spots that should not be there. And more than a few times right in front of police officers. So they are going to have to watch for this now, which they probably won't want to do. And to tell the truth in places where they have lots of calls it will be hard for them.
One more thing. If there was some way for people with electric cars to know where all the charging spots are in the area that they are traveling in, that might help. Like some app or button they got push to get that info easily. I would suspect, I am not sure, that some chargers in small towns might be more open. Just a guess though.
Lots of stuff to tackle, but it's worth it.
1
The cars that make the most sense to me now are the Ford Fusion Energi, the Ford C Max Energi, the Chevy Volt, and it's Cadillac derivative. These cars are plug-in hybrids with large batteries and gas engines. They have tremendous range and the gas motors only kick in as needed. Yes they use some gas but the amount is miniscule. They are rated at around 100 mph. Even if their makers pulled a VW and lied about their milage and they got half of what's claimed I think we can live with that.
5
My sentiments exactly.
The Volt is like Hamberger Helper for gas. It makes a little go a loooooong way. Or as Cousin Eddy says "it does just fine all by itself" :-0!
Yes, I still have a gas engine and all the parts and problems that eventually kill off a gas car, but I will have to drive it 400,000 miles before the engine has 100,00 miles on it. Plus, the engine isn't as stressed as a regular car is because it doesn't rev all over the tach going up and down all the time. It's more steady RPM that slowly ramps up and down with demand as the battery helps out.
The Volt is like Hamberger Helper for gas. It makes a little go a loooooong way. Or as Cousin Eddy says "it does just fine all by itself" :-0!
Yes, I still have a gas engine and all the parts and problems that eventually kill off a gas car, but I will have to drive it 400,000 miles before the engine has 100,00 miles on it. Plus, the engine isn't as stressed as a regular car is because it doesn't rev all over the tach going up and down all the time. It's more steady RPM that slowly ramps up and down with demand as the battery helps out.
In the early days of the automobile in America, gasoline was bought in cans over the counter. At some point, recharging stations will be as common as filling stations are now.
1
Ah California. Mother same state that is woefully weak on mass transportation options, and where people spend hours per day shuttling between their homes and work in single occupancy vehicles.
Let's compare LA and New York Metro commuters. Now, who are really greener? But the smug California leaf owners would never, ever permit the building of a decent mass transit system if they had to contribute real tax dollars, or have to relinquish a single bit of their driver independence. Even the self righteous denizen of San Fransisco object to Google's use of busses for their employees who commute out to San Jose.
Let's compare LA and New York Metro commuters. Now, who are really greener? But the smug California leaf owners would never, ever permit the building of a decent mass transit system if they had to contribute real tax dollars, or have to relinquish a single bit of their driver independence. Even the self righteous denizen of San Fransisco object to Google's use of busses for their employees who commute out to San Jose.
5
I drive an electric hybrid, and while I'm not a member of a cult, I do live in Ohio, almost 60% of the electricity comes from coal. However, our electric companies give us the option to buy electricity generated from renewables - mostly solar - at a higher price per kWh. Everyone I know who drives an electric car has chosen this option, as have the companies that installed charging stations. I've yet to meet anyone who drives an electric car who doesn't understand that driving a car powered by electricity from coal is counter-productive.
14
The amount of coal consumed by an electric car per mile is quite small compared to the amount of gas burned in non-electric cars.
1
Buy a volt problem solved
3
Agreed! Pure electric is not going anywhere. The problem is not just the ratio of cars to charging stations, but the time needed to re-charge. (With all our gas stations would even gasoline work if it took you four hours to fill your tank?) The only long-term solution is plug in hybrids like the Volt. Then, every charging station should require payment (to keep the freeloaders away). Sadly, $2/gallon gasoline is impeding development of vehicles like the Volt and slowing its sales.
1
There is a guy at work that parks his Volt in the charging place with or without charging it everyday and next to all the handicap places. It is right near to the main entrance where 1000 people have entry. Of course, everyone else has non-exempt parking half a block away. This is in New England - not any different. And Volts do not need to be charged at all...
I don't drive anymore. I have no vehicle so I'm getting a big kick out of this story.....Riding the bus/subways and laughing all the way to the bank. Good luck with this.
7
Ron - go ahead and laugh. You effectively lose a couple years off your lifespan by living in the most crowded, expensive and hyper-competitive place in the nation. People living in other states with little access to public transportation are laughing at your cost of rent, taxes and utilities. They are still saving money after buying electric vehicles, and have the option to drive out to a serene natural setting where they can experience the vast beauty of America's open spaces. So go ahead and laugh.
4
Manhattan is the most stimulating place on Earth...save up & try
it--you may like it...you may even get used to being a minority!
it--you may like it...you may even get used to being a minority!
1
Isn't the solution obvious?
3
Homicide is illegal in most jurisdictions & oft sanctioned elsewhere...
3
When you say too few plugs, do you mean power points?
2
A pet peeve of mine . . . "outlets" would be another acceptable term.
When you say power points, do you mean those little graphic presentations used in overhead projectors?
Pedanticism doesn't become you.
Pedanticism doesn't become you.
2
I have lived in apartments my whole adult life. The whole story reminds me of the sagas of many apartment building laundry rooms with folks forgetting to take their clothes out or competing for the only larger (and cheaper) dryer or removing someone else's long dried (and apparently forgotten) clothes. Nice to know that those who can afford to pay thousands more on a car than can my neighbors have the same behavior issues - though the sense of entitlement is not really a laundry room issue ;-)
63
Unless the electricity being used to charge the cars is obtained from clean sources, this whole thing is an exercise in futility. The majority of electricity in the US is produced by burning coal, oil, or natural gas. So these wonderful electric cars are still essentially burning fossil fuel and not really solving any problems.
62
One step at a time. Sometimes it's discretionary to tackle the end-use, rather than the source, counter-intuitive as it may seem.
3
Oil - drilling and pumping, moving the crude to a refinery, refining to gasoline (each gallon takes 6 kWh of energy just to refine!), transport to gas station, pumping at gas station, and then in a car, 80% of the fuel's energy is wasted as heat. By contrast, in WA state, 80% of our electricity comes from renewable sources, very little is wasted in transmission, it doesn't spill out of the outlet on the way into the car and the batteries dissipate about 10% of the energy put into them as wasted heat.
Ignoring the energy it takes to obtain, refine, and transport fossil fuels (which is a major cost), a Camry gets about 20 mpg. A Nissan LEAF goes about 115 mpg-e.
I've gone from spending $200 a month on gas to spending about $8 a month on electricity.
Unlike gasoline, which will never get cleaner, and the car's engine gets less efficient over time, electricity gets CLEANER as generation facilities get cleaner.
Ignoring the energy it takes to obtain, refine, and transport fossil fuels (which is a major cost), a Camry gets about 20 mpg. A Nissan LEAF goes about 115 mpg-e.
I've gone from spending $200 a month on gas to spending about $8 a month on electricity.
Unlike gasoline, which will never get cleaner, and the car's engine gets less efficient over time, electricity gets CLEANER as generation facilities get cleaner.
17
So many of them don't realize that solar and wind power must be stored for those windless and sunless day. The batteries and inverters that make DC from the batteries and convert it to AC for use are expensive to buy, maintain and dispose of. Most inverters only return 90% of the power that was put into them.
Adequate numbers of chargers or not I see no reason to schedule a few hours of my time to charge my car a few times a week when I can pull into a gas station and be out in 10 minutes powered for another 350 miles.
This is like all things Lefties do. It's not end results that matter it's making the effort no matter how poorly thought out beforehand.
Adequate numbers of chargers or not I see no reason to schedule a few hours of my time to charge my car a few times a week when I can pull into a gas station and be out in 10 minutes powered for another 350 miles.
This is like all things Lefties do. It's not end results that matter it's making the effort no matter how poorly thought out beforehand.
4
Electric cars are hyped up for its benefits of cutting emission. A Prius beats it easily because you do get that electricity from burning fossil fuel. Somebody is doing the choking somewhere else. Efficiency considered, E-car in most places are about the same, in some places, even worse than a hybrid. Solve the root problem first: get more clean fuel generated electricity. Solar energy is still at a miserable 0.25% of total energy production. And, you think your electric car is clean? Think again!
9
Cleaner is good enough during interim, before solar-aeolian & 'dense storage' are normative.
This comnent is flat wrong. The government gives the mpg equivalent of electric cars based on how much hydrocarbon is used to produce the electricity used by the car. They consume a very small fraction of the hydrocarbons used by a gas engine.
1
Not everyone wants or should have to drive a Prius, which still creates other oil externalities besides emissions. Refer to the map here to see what EV emissions are in your region (2014) and note that this should be compared to gasoline car EPA ratings, such as 24 mpg average vehicle, and 28 mpg compact car:
http://blog.ucsusa.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/EV-map21.jpg
http://blog.ucsusa.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/EV-map21.jpg
2
"privilege" says it all. here in the east (virginia specifically) we had the issue of hybrid car owners revolting every time their privilege of using the i95 hov lanes without needing the requisite number of riders was threatened. roughly 20,000 hybrid car owners were holding more efficient use of the hov lanes (meant to reduce traffic congestion) hostage in the crowded northern virginia traffic corridor for the privilege of allowing the hybrid car drivers to ride solo in the express lanes.
5
You are thoroughly misguided if you believe that the HOV lanes were "meant to reduce congestion".
HOV lanes were created In the early 1970's as an energy conservation means. What you speak of is an unintended beneficial side effect, which includes the reduction of GHGe's.
Now run along and spread the gospel.
HOV lanes were created In the early 1970's as an energy conservation means. What you speak of is an unintended beneficial side effect, which includes the reduction of GHGe's.
Now run along and spread the gospel.
5
Edit for parsimony...
Park an electric car at work? then why not unpack a portable solar powered charger and lay it out on the roof? In sunny Sunnyvale or LA that should generate enough juice to replenish a Volt over the driver's day in the cubicle - no public charging station needed.
21
Why not build parking garages with solar panels on the roof, batteries in the walls, and plug-ins in parking spaces, then charge a bit extra for those spaces?
Works best if solar panel tracks full photon spectrum w/o mechanical movement; such capability is en route...note spray-on metamaterials, pp 40-43, New Scientist, 26 SP 2015 CE]...
I hope this is a means of securing the portable solar charger so it does not get stolen.....
"Jamie Hull, who drives an electric Fiat, grew apoplectic recently when she discovered herself nearly out of a charge, unable to get home to Palo Alto. She found a charging station, but a Tesla was parked in it and not charging. She ordered a coffee, waited for the driver to return and, when he did, asked why he was taking a spot when he was not charging. She said the man had told her that he was going to run one more errand and walked off."
The solution to this and the iceholes would seem to be for electric car drivers to carry with them, presumably stored in their trunk, an extension cord capable of handling the charge. Then they could even block offending cars in while they charge their own cars.
The solution to this and the iceholes would seem to be for electric car drivers to carry with them, presumably stored in their trunk, an extension cord capable of handling the charge. Then they could even block offending cars in while they charge their own cars.
15
My Toyota Yaris Hybrid never needs charging and enjoys special parking privileges next to handicapped drivers, expectant mothers, and plug in electric cars.
Yes, France provides special parking spaces for pregnant women as part of a series of maternity and paternity support services. The parking sign for expectant mothers is an outline of a woman with a baby bump.
France has the highest fertility rate in Europe in a nation of 65 million and growing with most young women working. That means France encourages energy savings at the same time it encourages population growth for diminishing resources.
The French have never claimed they were consistent, just that they were life affirming!
Yes, France provides special parking spaces for pregnant women as part of a series of maternity and paternity support services. The parking sign for expectant mothers is an outline of a woman with a baby bump.
France has the highest fertility rate in Europe in a nation of 65 million and growing with most young women working. That means France encourages energy savings at the same time it encourages population growth for diminishing resources.
The French have never claimed they were consistent, just that they were life affirming!
2
"used to perks, like getting state and federal subsidies for buying green cars"
Perk? Under the current system, the real perk recipients are the oncologists, who get to suck all of the money out of the families of Lung Cancer victims - and when they break the family, the taxpayer ends up paying the rest.
Of course, if the victim is poor or uninsured, the taxpayer takes on the entire burden. And let's not forgot to mention the Asthma sufferers, the Emphysema sufferers and so on.
Because "Big Oil" corporations are super people who don't have to pay for the damage they do to others, we should be very pleased to provide drivers with free electricity for their cars - we will all come out financially when we so.
Eventually, cheap and highly efficient wind and solar charging stations will be become common as the technology matures, and batteries will last longer - and so will our family members.
Perk? Under the current system, the real perk recipients are the oncologists, who get to suck all of the money out of the families of Lung Cancer victims - and when they break the family, the taxpayer ends up paying the rest.
Of course, if the victim is poor or uninsured, the taxpayer takes on the entire burden. And let's not forgot to mention the Asthma sufferers, the Emphysema sufferers and so on.
Because "Big Oil" corporations are super people who don't have to pay for the damage they do to others, we should be very pleased to provide drivers with free electricity for their cars - we will all come out financially when we so.
Eventually, cheap and highly efficient wind and solar charging stations will be become common as the technology matures, and batteries will last longer - and so will our family members.
15
At some point battery technology will reach the point of diminishing returns if it has not reached that point already...And to add to that, what are the environmental impacts of manufacturing all these batteries and once the battery life has been fully exhausted (after recycling etc) what happens to the millions of batteries and their impact on the environment? If there is a net zero impact, okay but I doubt that very much .....
1
How about putting the pressure on developers, cities, and legislators rather than on the electric car users, who are doing the best they can (which can lead to the worst) with a shortage? I am looking forward to part two of this article series, which will, I presume, focus on ways to increase electric station availability on public streets, in workplaces, in shops, in homes...
11
Don't Americans ever get tired of fighting each other over everything? I did!
35
It's a good thing that half of the EVs are in California. If they were in Texas there would be refilling of guns instead of refueling.
34
Are they such bad shots?
1
While it is interesting to read about this problem of ettiquette amongst electric car drivers, there is a lot more to plugging in electric cars than charging. With the development of Vehicle to Grid (V2G) systems, electric vehicles with batteries will be in great demand for grid stabilization initially and peak shaving later on. If you have to own a car, per Wikipedia, a plugged in battery electric vehicle (BEV) could be worth $4000 a year with V2G. Then, charging/discharging stations will be very important to the electrical grid.
4
That is a fascinating concept. So will your car be discharging during the daytime when electric usage is high? That'll make it tough for you at the end of work when you're ready to go home. Or will your car be used to stabilize the grid at night when the sun isn't shining. That'll make it tough when it's time to go to work in the morning. It will work out great for people who don't actually drive their cars: they can be batteries to stabilize the grid. It does seem like a stand alone battery would be more cost effective.
Leave it to California, the state that so happily bills itself as the nation's great trendsetter, to be so obviously unable to keep up with current events. Literally.
Does anyone think they can really do anything about 'global warming' when there's a non-system for EV charging that's virtually guaranteed to get everyone concerned hot under the collar?
Maybe the drivers just need to learn to meditate. Or get back to being 'productive' at their stand-up or treadmill desks. (Sitting, after all, is 'the new smoking'.)
Or, perhaps realise that life in the Golden State just seems to require more and more gold for less and less living. In other words, dear friends who try so conscientiously to be on top of all the latest trends, you've been gloriously had.
Does anyone think they can really do anything about 'global warming' when there's a non-system for EV charging that's virtually guaranteed to get everyone concerned hot under the collar?
Maybe the drivers just need to learn to meditate. Or get back to being 'productive' at their stand-up or treadmill desks. (Sitting, after all, is 'the new smoking'.)
Or, perhaps realise that life in the Golden State just seems to require more and more gold for less and less living. In other words, dear friends who try so conscientiously to be on top of all the latest trends, you've been gloriously had.
10
Another reason why California is an exodus state.
3
I have had an electric car for a year, and save for one presumptuous Tesla owner, my experiences have been great, with lots of considerate humans out there.
38
I have no problems in my suburb of Los Angeles (San Dimas), where free charging is politely shared at our downtown lot, no one has ever unplugged me, and if I park adjacent to the charger with my port open a neighborly EV driver will always plug me in (unless it's a plug-in Prius charging...they don't seem to get it). The Leaf has a setting to lock the charger in place until you are truly full, I can't imagine why the driver in the article isn't using it. The only time I've left a note is to tell a waiting EV vehicle that I would have plugged him in if he'd left his port open.
My work has an astounding 8 chargers, the 4 hour max is mostly obeyed, and if someone is just parked there for the privilege of an EV space it's definitely a Tesla or a Volt.
Important point: EV's make a great second car for a family. You shouldn't NEED a charge to get through your daily routine; it's important that your at-home plug accommodate your distance needs. I use 120V charging at home, which works for my 25 mile total daily commute. If my commute were 50 - 80 miles daily I'd set up a real charger at home. I take adventurous EV trips on the weekend, but I am flexible with my time. ChargePoint tells me what chargers are available, and there are soooo many in Southern California In the inland areas (sadly there are fewer towards the beach).
My work has an astounding 8 chargers, the 4 hour max is mostly obeyed, and if someone is just parked there for the privilege of an EV space it's definitely a Tesla or a Volt.
Important point: EV's make a great second car for a family. You shouldn't NEED a charge to get through your daily routine; it's important that your at-home plug accommodate your distance needs. I use 120V charging at home, which works for my 25 mile total daily commute. If my commute were 50 - 80 miles daily I'd set up a real charger at home. I take adventurous EV trips on the weekend, but I am flexible with my time. ChargePoint tells me what chargers are available, and there are soooo many in Southern California In the inland areas (sadly there are fewer towards the beach).
36
"Plenty of Electric Cars in California, but a Lack of Plugs"
"Electric Cars Outpace Plugs"
There's no shortage of plugs, there's a shortage of outlets. Each car has its own plug. Plugs get plugged into outlets.
"Electric Cars Outpace Plugs"
There's no shortage of plugs, there's a shortage of outlets. Each car has its own plug. Plugs get plugged into outlets.
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Perhaps if Ms Hull had told the driver of the Tesla that she was out of juice and was unable to get home, he would have removed his car from the space. What she did was accuse him of taking a spot & he was not being charged, leading him to tell her he's got another errand to run. Don't put him on the defensive.
Of course, he was incorrect to park in the spot if he didn't need it but the way in which we speak to someone, goes a long way in getting them see things our way.
You catch a lot more flies with honey than vinegar.
Of course, he was incorrect to park in the spot if he didn't need it but the way in which we speak to someone, goes a long way in getting them see things our way.
You catch a lot more flies with honey than vinegar.
2
Sure, blame the victim.
4
The main thing we considered before leasing our two electric cars was:
Will it complete a round trip to and from work on a full charge?
They both do, so we are set. Also, Fiat electric offers a free program that allows free rentals of gas cars if you need to take a trip that is over 90 plus miles. You can use the free rental program six times per year.
There's also a great website called plugshare that shows the nearest charging stations to you.
Will it complete a round trip to and from work on a full charge?
They both do, so we are set. Also, Fiat electric offers a free program that allows free rentals of gas cars if you need to take a trip that is over 90 plus miles. You can use the free rental program six times per year.
There's also a great website called plugshare that shows the nearest charging stations to you.
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This is just the beginning. As more chargers are added, the power grid will then become overloaded. When will people learn that there ain't no such thing as a free lunch? It takes energy to move a car, and that energy has to come from somewhere. Right now the bulk of it is produced by fossil fuels. Solar charging stations are even more rare. Good luck finding one of those when you need it.
Public transit is a better solution, but most people don't really want to give up the convenience of a personal vehicle. Buying an electric car may make some feel like they are doing something positive, but it's really no different than an ICE since it MUST take the same amount of energy to move the car with one person in it.
Public transit is a better solution, but most people don't really want to give up the convenience of a personal vehicle. Buying an electric car may make some feel like they are doing something positive, but it's really no different than an ICE since it MUST take the same amount of energy to move the car with one person in it.
2
Your logic assumes that All cars need to be charged at the Same time, Same time that houses are utilizing maximum current.
Very illogical of that happening.
I'm going to give you a hint: the supply of water and that of electricity, though obviously differing genres, can be analyzed in much the same way.
Very illogical of that happening.
I'm going to give you a hint: the supply of water and that of electricity, though obviously differing genres, can be analyzed in much the same way.
4
I have read estimates that the amount of electricity it takes to make a gallon of gas would move an electric vehicle over 20 miles.
I don't think we need worry about e.v.s overloading the power grid.
I don't think we need worry about e.v.s overloading the power grid.
2
This article relies purely on cherry picked, anecdotal information. I have been driving an electric car exclusively for almost three years in the SF Bay Area. Not once have I had trouble plugging in my car or had to deal with competition for a plug. The Oakland airport, the San Francisco airport, parking structures, my local Target (which must have 15 chargers - three cars plugged in at once is the most I've ever seen) - I have never, not once, not been able to immediately charge my car in three years.
Admittedly, I do not park all day at an office and perhaps the office park situation exists, but from my experience this article is vastly overstating the issue.
Admittedly, I do not park all day at an office and perhaps the office park situation exists, but from my experience this article is vastly overstating the issue.
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Well, you're also describing cherry picked, anecdote. Mine's also anecdotal, but it's over about thousand square miles and several dozen charging locations. L2 isn't as big a deal, but fast charging has become a huge problem. I suspect the author is describing free charge problem with L2 at workplace.
http://sparkev.blogspot.com/2015/10/free-charging-sucks.html
http://sparkev.blogspot.com/2015/10/free-charging-sucks.html
Spending almost $100K to be a guinea pig in the Great Electric Car Experiment? No thanks - I will stick with my ICE while others fight over a charging station!
5
It's no more an experiment than the ICE was in 1900.
1
Over 75% over the plug in electrics sold in 2014 had a net comsumer cost of under $30,000 (with the average new gasoline only vehicle being over $32,000) And most charging occurs at home, overnight while you sleep; PHEV type vehicles (like the Chevy Volt) never need to be charged in public (or at all for that matter) because they have gas backup.
2
I was worried about being a Guinea Pig when we bought the Volt three years ago.
Now all my concerns have not occurred and I am confident now they wont.
Great cars. cant wait to dump our truck for another.
Now all my concerns have not occurred and I am confident now they wont.
Great cars. cant wait to dump our truck for another.
1
When I was in California recently the utilities instituted brownouts and begged people to cut back on a/c while holding off on using washers, driers and dishwashers until at night.
So if we're all driving chargeable electric cars where will the electricity come from, especially if I need a charge in the middle of the day and cannot wait until nighttime to charge up?
So if we're all driving chargeable electric cars where will the electricity come from, especially if I need a charge in the middle of the day and cannot wait until nighttime to charge up?
1
Where were you? I live in (northern) California and water is the big limiting resource here, not electricity. I've never heard anything about brownouts.
5
Tesla's allow you to specify when they charge. Plug in at 7 and it will start charging after midnight (or any other time you program) to take advantage of lower overnight electric rates.
2
Stanford David - Mike is correct. Back in the days when Enron was manipulating energy markets, we had rolling brown outs. None for many years, so Mike is wrong when he says this is a recent problem.
2
They are green garbage and only a lemming would pay interest for six years to own one.
4
I financed mine for 6 years at zero % interest...and in three years it is already having a TOC (total cost of ownership) equal to a $21,000 compact that gets 30 mpg. Imagine how much will be saved by end of year 6 when it's paid off! :)
2
My 4WD, 3/4ton, 7000 lb., diesel truck has been paid off for five years. On the highway, I average 25mpg with a canoe on top, two guns, a deer and 10 extra gallons of diesel fuel in the box. I expect ~400K miles before a first rebuild and can travel ~600 miles in any direction on one tank. Imagine listening to Prokofiev while I pull your car out of a snowy ditch.
I suspect that the problem is as much with the people as it is with the charging stations. It's a very special Bay Area segment of the population - righteous, techy, liberal, narcissistic, and self absorbed. Their love and good will toward people tends to be inversely proportional to the said people's proximity. Therefore they love the people of Nepal, but thoroughly enjoy cutting someone off on 101. They are very concerned about the environment, but have no problem suing their neighbour over a trivial transgression. So, I say, let the go at it :-)
11
Interesting how many people living thousands of miles away are so expert on Californians.
2
David, I suspect I lived longer in California than you. :-). Moved. For some of those reasons.
1
As Elon once said, you've got to build the unicorn before you go building unicorn pastures.
9
Illogical. Build the unicorn pasture first so there's someplace to put the unicorn and provide food for it.
2
I find it interesting that these electric car owners will go out of their way to be kind to the earth, an inanimate object, yet kindness for their fellow man comes up short in these cases.
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As a Volt owner, I am very kind to other EV's. There's other co-workers and students that share the same spots, and we work together to create an optimum schedule.
6
Does that mean those who get upset can't get angry because they are environmentally conscious? No they are just being human. I don't know why you think they have to act better.
1
@Tg yes there is plenty of bad behavior all around. The ICE folks parking in charging spots is rude and disrespectful too.
1
I have a Tesla. With Teslas, no one but the person holding the electronic 'key' can take the charging plug out of the car. And I have never had to wait at any Tesla charging station anywhere in California.
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Good to know.
When Elon Musk makes an EV that is truly for the common driver his dream of EV over-coming ICE vehicles will be closer reality. As it stands now, TESLA's solution is similar to other exotic brand sports vehicle business models - sell high-end expensive cars to target enthusiasts that can drop over $100k on a work of art that they can drive. Leadership in EV exotics will prove to be TESLA's downfall as he may have been the strongest 'first-to-market' to have sustained business to-date leadership is fleeting as the traditional exotic vehicles manufacturers, that have sliced and diced TESLA's technology to look for marginal improvements, will out-last Elon Musk. I don't think that Silicon Valley or Investors will continue to support an exotic EV builder unless there is a clear and progressive business model to champion the largest market segment. Time is also fleeting.
Where does one buy and service TESLA? I think that being new is fine but eventually some rich owners of TESLA may prefer to keep their vehicles in good working order without too much time involved. Porsche learned that hard lesson when owners got tired of lining up at Porsche limited services for oil changes, tire rotations and regular 'fine-tuning'.
I like Elon Musk and what he has accomplished - like millions of other fans, but even the smartest tools in the shed will not over-come business and market risks associated with high-end EV sales "and services" .
Where does one buy and service TESLA? I think that being new is fine but eventually some rich owners of TESLA may prefer to keep their vehicles in good working order without too much time involved. Porsche learned that hard lesson when owners got tired of lining up at Porsche limited services for oil changes, tire rotations and regular 'fine-tuning'.
I like Elon Musk and what he has accomplished - like millions of other fans, but even the smartest tools in the shed will not over-come business and market risks associated with high-end EV sales "and services" .
Article is talking about L2, not fast charge. You don't need Tesla to have locking charging handle; even my $3000 SparkEV cannot remove charging handle while fast charging without the electronic key.
To prevent gasoline cars from taking up charging parking slots there are two methods:
1) Put a parking meter for the spot that includes the cost of charging. If a gas car is parked in that spot, it will have to pay more than in other spots and subsidize the charging station owner as the charging station owner gets money and does not spend anything on the electricity used. This will also give a financial incentive for electric car owners to free up the spot as soon as they have charged "enough". You can also limit the maximum time allowed on the meter to encourage people to move their cars.
2) Put the charging stations in spots that are not that convenient, e.g. in spots farthest from entrance doors.
1) Put a parking meter for the spot that includes the cost of charging. If a gas car is parked in that spot, it will have to pay more than in other spots and subsidize the charging station owner as the charging station owner gets money and does not spend anything on the electricity used. This will also give a financial incentive for electric car owners to free up the spot as soon as they have charged "enough". You can also limit the maximum time allowed on the meter to encourage people to move their cars.
2) Put the charging stations in spots that are not that convenient, e.g. in spots farthest from entrance doors.
80
trust a computer programmer to come up with a complicated solution that costs lots of money, and won't work. A $300 ticket will do the trick.
1
They are convenient, because trenching the wires are expensive. There are ticketed spots, and state laws that make "ICEing" illegal. But, it is not unified yet.
Variation - each space has a meter which requires a credit card to park. The meter charges a set, low rate while the car is being charged. The rate goes up to $25 an hour ten minutes after charging is completed. Credit card is billed automatically.
12
I like the idea of owning an electric car but after reading this article I think I will wait until there are an adequate number of conveniently located charging stations so that I am not stuck waiting for one to open up so I can make it to my destination.
I am not the most patient person and this is an additional aggravation that I don't need.
I am not the most patient person and this is an additional aggravation that I don't need.
6
My EV is rated at 82 miles to the charge but I actually average around 105. My daily driving is about 30 miles, which means I only need a charge every couple days - easy to do at home overnight. While it is nice to have public chargers, they aren't absolutely essential to me and, I suspect, other EV drivers. Sure, there are several public chargers I can "top off" at while shopping, but none of them are free. I pay $0.11 per kWh at home and most charging stations run 3x-4x that and more.
Although this is our primary car, we have a second ICE car. If we need to go more than 100 miles in a day, we use the other car. Like others, I have found the "Electric Highway" of charging stations to be hit-or-miss as far as being out of service, the wrong "flavor" of plug or already in-use.
Although this is our primary car, we have a second ICE car. If we need to go more than 100 miles in a day, we use the other car. Like others, I have found the "Electric Highway" of charging stations to be hit-or-miss as far as being out of service, the wrong "flavor" of plug or already in-use.
13
It's not as bad as it seems. You will charge mostly at home anyway. You can always consider a PHEV....Volt (read some Volt owners FB pages and get a feel for how much Volts love their cars.) BMW is also doing a big push towards PHEVs. Ford has one too. Actually, LA has a decent amount public EV chargers. Do a search on PlugShare.com.
5
I love my Volt!
I get asked about some silly things like "I hear Volts get stranded after a few miles" or "Isn't fast" It's great educating people about the great benefits of the car! I save $260/mo by not using gas!
I get asked about some silly things like "I hear Volts get stranded after a few miles" or "Isn't fast" It's great educating people about the great benefits of the car! I save $260/mo by not using gas!
3
How about instead of trying to reinvent the obsolete automobile we commit to public transit? That high-speed rail from LA to SF is hardly any closer to getting built and if Republicans in Congress have their way it will be dead for good.
23
LA-SF pseudo high speed rail won't help anyone's daily commute. Getting from the Bay to LA isn't a problem. Look at google maps, find the red zones in rush hour, and build local mass transit there. Or just wait 15 years for self driving cars to make better use of existing road bandwidth. But a massive high speed rail program enriches no one except politicians paid by the construction lobby. That rail should not be built, this isn't a partisan issue.
13
Meanwhile...
1
*Cough* *cough* Elon Musk's Hyperloop *Cough*
Who said that?!
Who said that?!
1
If you want to do electric cars right the electric cars will need to have swapable batteries. When your battery is close to empty you will pull into a service station where your battery is automatically removed and replaced with a fully charged one., The process should take about 5 minutes, like gassing up. You should also be able to charge the cars at home and at charging stations.
There no good reason why all makes of electric cars cannot use a uniform battery. Right now they all use the identical fuel. Same idea.
There no good reason why all makes of electric cars cannot use a uniform battery. Right now they all use the identical fuel. Same idea.
66
Mike...swapable batteries are a good idea but that ship may have sailed for a few years. The auto makers would need to make all batteries uniform. In the mean-time, focus on home charging and workplace charging. L2 public charging is not the answer but the perceived answer to people who are considering an EV. One of the reasons they don't purchase them is because they don't see public L2's but once they purchase them, they realize that 80% of their charging is at home. DCFC along major highway corridors will definitely increase the adoption of EVs. Of course, battery technology is improving so fast that there will be a huge infrastructure of chargers and then most will not be need. Even Elon said that a 600 mile range EV is only a few years away. Interesting times!
5
I'm not really sure this would work out well since the batteries are very expensive (at least several thousand dollars) and they don't last forever. So I think there would be an issue with people trading in worn out ones. So you would have to charge a lot to account for that and then it wouldn't be worth wile for most people so then you would have even problems with it leading to cost spiralling out of control.
You my friend are a genius! Now to get legislation akin to removal of unleaded fuel passed would be a game changer.
Very brilliant Idea my friend.
I would go a step further and say, uniform battery (size vary with range, same as varying gas tank sizes) in addition to auxiliary charging bays, and put a premium on charging.
Very brilliant Idea my friend.
I would go a step further and say, uniform battery (size vary with range, same as varying gas tank sizes) in addition to auxiliary charging bays, and put a premium on charging.
2
My Company has the policy that is working reasonably well. In my company's employee charge stations, cost of charging for first 4 hours is $1 each. After that every hour costs $5 !. The time is measured by the amount of time the car is plugged in. The timer continue to run irrespective of whether the car is taking charge or not.
136
It would be fairer to charge for use depending on if the car is charging.
Serious locking unit until it has reached full charge. Like Joseph Cotton tells Tim Holt in THE MAGNIFICENT AMBERSON'S: "Whether you like them or not they're here to stay! (sic he was referring to the automobile).
12
And so it begins... the electric car charade imploding upon itself.
The only reason why even the meager number of these cars are in the road is because of the bloated subsidies buyers and manufacturers of the cars receive.
Along those lines, I'm sure the 'solution' here will be some sort of widespread, costly 'charging station infrastructure' project footed by taxpayers. Owners of electric cars already get free power at most charging stations. So we certainly can't expect them to wait for a station or be inconvenienced in any way.
The only reason why even the meager number of these cars are in the road is because of the bloated subsidies buyers and manufacturers of the cars receive.
Along those lines, I'm sure the 'solution' here will be some sort of widespread, costly 'charging station infrastructure' project footed by taxpayers. Owners of electric cars already get free power at most charging stations. So we certainly can't expect them to wait for a station or be inconvenienced in any way.
14
There are no "free power charging stations" in my area of southern california. Better get your facts straight. Some companies might offer charging at no cost for their employees as a benefit. Charging stations in my area cost far more per kilowatt-hour than the electric rate at my home.
9
@TM -- These are growing pains, wrinkles that will get ironed out. Though until they do, a lot of people could delay buying an EV.
14
TM: I charge my Tesla at home using solar electricity from the PV panels on my garage roof. Zero emissions and 0-60 in 5 seconds. What's a charade about that?
14
It's true that Teslas have a COUPLE hundred miles range (hardly "several" hundred miles) but keep in mind some Tesla drivers are on the road traveling and must charge to get to their destination. That said, we generally don't have to join the charging station rat race. I'm a former Nissan LEAF owner that did experience nastiness over ability to charge in order to get home; but charging station reliability was far more of an issue. Charging stations are too often broken and out-of-order.
26
We cant throw up our hands and say, electric cars ultimately run on coal so lets keep using gasoline combustion propelled transportation. This is a recipe for disaster. But cars are not enough. Electricity generation for all purposes also needs to be CO2 neutral. Incidental to achieving that through solar, wind, improved efficiencies of the grid etc. we will be reducing non-vehicular as well as electric vehicular generated CO2 emissions. For those who cant wait and have the means, you can run your car on solar power or wind power today.
13
Owning an electric car is a good incentive to go solar.
6
Why have retailers not offered free car charging? The power cost is minimal compared to gaining customers. Also the Post Office should offer charging, with their distributed footprint and lack of revenues from diminishing mail delivery.
40
That has become the fastest growth area for charging stations in New York State. Several supermarkets and shopping malls already have free charging stations and more appear whenever a mall is renovated.
8
Many retailers, restaurants and hotels in the US offer free charging to attract customers.
7
No, the post office has a deficit. Great idea but swipe your card and pay the fee. I think the whole problem will be 'solved' when you have swipe stations rather than free stations.
A simple solution to this problem is to require users to pay for the electricity they use at public chargers, as is already done at many public charging stations. This article seems intended to spread fear about electric cars - was it promoted or written by a paid advocate for the fissile fuel industry?
20
Hardly a paid advocate of the fissile fuel industry. This was a brutally honest article with a lot of involvement by experienced EV owners. This article just exposes a growing pain for the industry and a call for greater infrastructure and civilty among drivers who use public charging. I woul completely agree that most experienced EV drivers was stations to be pay stations. Employers who offer charging as a benefit to their employees need to give the proper attention to rules and ratio of charges and owners need to know their charging strategy before jumping in.
4
Fissile? Like nuclear? I am sure you meant fossil. Good spelling would lend credibility to any comment.
We need to put money into infrastructure and this is part of that. If you vote for politicians who are against infrasructure funding and own an electric car, you are only thinking half right.
10
The article claims that electric cars are a push to make the state "greener," a word, much like "natural", that is more marketing slogan than substantive concept at this point.
It would be nice if all the people who feel so good, clean, green, and virtuous driving their new electric cars stopped to calculate the pollution -- much of it from coal -- that goes into producing that electricity. The Googloids and Facebookies in Silicon Valley may breathe cleaner air, but the folks around such places as Page and the Navajo Res are sucking up the fumes from the coal producing that electricity.
There is no free lunch. What is needed is comprehensive upstream and downstream pollution calculations for all forms of energy production and usage.
As an example: which produces less pollution, driving my '72 that gets 14 m.p.g. or making new (and disposing of old) cars every eight years, each of which might have gotten an extra 4 m.p.g.?
What we need are good calculations, not feel-good slogans.
As it is, I can't help but be a bit amused by this non-road rage.
It would be nice if all the people who feel so good, clean, green, and virtuous driving their new electric cars stopped to calculate the pollution -- much of it from coal -- that goes into producing that electricity. The Googloids and Facebookies in Silicon Valley may breathe cleaner air, but the folks around such places as Page and the Navajo Res are sucking up the fumes from the coal producing that electricity.
There is no free lunch. What is needed is comprehensive upstream and downstream pollution calculations for all forms of energy production and usage.
As an example: which produces less pollution, driving my '72 that gets 14 m.p.g. or making new (and disposing of old) cars every eight years, each of which might have gotten an extra 4 m.p.g.?
What we need are good calculations, not feel-good slogans.
As it is, I can't help but be a bit amused by this non-road rage.
101
I have no illusions about being green with my electric car. It's all about the best driving experience I have ever had - I enjoy driving where I never did before. Driving an ICE, when I absolutely have to, is a pretty nasty experience.
1
If you did some research you will know that currently only 0.5% of California's electricity comes from coal. In the Bay area the combined capacity of renewables, large hydro and nuclear leads to more than 50% carbon free electricity. The rest comes from natural gas which is cleaner than coal. By 2030 the state has a mandate of reaching 50% renewables and pollution from generating electricity is diminishing rapidly in CA. On top of that close to 50% of EV owners in CA have solar panels on their roofs to juice their cars.
101
You assume that all, or most, of that electricity is produced by coal but, in fact, in California at least, much of the electricity is produced by other sources. The type of person who would buy an electric car, typically somebody who cares about the planet and climate change, is much more likely to have solar panels on their home or look for other ways of being green. California is leading the way for the rest of the nation, and it's electricity is becoming greener and greener. It isn't about being seen as good, clean or virtuous it is about seeing seeing the direction our planet is going in - more severe weather, melting ice, rising waters etc, and caring about that effect on our children and our children's children, who will have to live in this newly changed world far longer than we will. ICE drivers can say they don't care or pretend there is no problem if they wish but that does nothing to solve the problem- nobody said selfishness is illegal, though it certainly isn't virtuous, should anybody care about such things.
60