The Greeks were so miffed when the Romans stole their Doric column design...Not! I'm sorry, but human history is based on learning, borrowing, appropriating and sharing. There is no way to tease apart all the influences. If someone over does it - that's their choice to risk looking foolish. Tonight when I go to the gym I will inform my brothers of African descent that, as a white man, I can no longer fist-bump them hello - so sorry.
9
I don't wanna see no northern yankee son of a gun wearing no cowboy boots.
In fact, unless you've ridden a bull, stay out of the Tony Lamas.
And I dare say, I really don't want anyone other than white people at the opera or at Lincoln center. The very thought of it...
And while I am offended by the thought of a white person playing jazz, I also want black jazz artists to quit using the American songbook as the basis for most of this jazz music.
And please, no speedos at the beach unless you are a competitive swimmer.
No wearing your favorite team's jersey unless of course you played for them.
No humming love songs if you aren't in love.
No bbq for northerners. Or tex-mex. Or chicken fried steak.
I could go on, but I might become even sillier than this article.
In fact, unless you've ridden a bull, stay out of the Tony Lamas.
And I dare say, I really don't want anyone other than white people at the opera or at Lincoln center. The very thought of it...
And while I am offended by the thought of a white person playing jazz, I also want black jazz artists to quit using the American songbook as the basis for most of this jazz music.
And please, no speedos at the beach unless you are a competitive swimmer.
No wearing your favorite team's jersey unless of course you played for them.
No humming love songs if you aren't in love.
No bbq for northerners. Or tex-mex. Or chicken fried steak.
I could go on, but I might become even sillier than this article.
12
Thank you, Kamila Shamsie! Encouraging people from different ethnicities and races to incorporate characters into their artistic endeavors is what we must do in order to figure out how global society is going to work for everyone. To tell a writer or a visual artist that they are forbidden to write about or to make images of anyone other than someone just like themselves is outrageous. And it is one of the most arrogant and mean-spirited attitudes of the PC crowd. There is an important human characteristic called empathy, that we must learn in order to grow and mature. We can learn that from identifying with fully-realized characters unlike ourselves in books, plays, films, paintings, etc., created by talented artists who see the divine in all of us.
6
We wouldn't be having this discussion if there weren't plenty of examples of black artists not being fully rewarded for their own talent and creativity, and white artists, and society in general, taking advantage of that situation. It is a truism in American youth culture that cool comes from black, even while, on the surface, white denigrates black. Wrong and unfair, but there it is. Having said this, art is a living thing and it will go where it goes.
Like this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yT2i2UylxJ0
The first time I heard this amalgam, I just had to be amazed. Art is a gift to us.
Like this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yT2i2UylxJ0
The first time I heard this amalgam, I just had to be amazed. Art is a gift to us.
Respect. It is all about whether the use of motifs from specific cultures denigrate or not the culture from which they come. As such, context is important, and this causes problems for people that wish to create simplistic rules about the use of such motifs.
Beyond that there is an interest racism and ethnocentrism in the concept that English speaking nations don't have a culture.
Art and cultures are complex and meaning is not absolute. Criticising someone for "cultural appropriation" may be correct or incorrect depending on the background context - the person, the attitude, the setting, the previous actions of the actor.
Beyond that there is an interest racism and ethnocentrism in the concept that English speaking nations don't have a culture.
Art and cultures are complex and meaning is not absolute. Criticising someone for "cultural appropriation" may be correct or incorrect depending on the background context - the person, the attitude, the setting, the previous actions of the actor.
3
Where some see "the dull dish that is mainstream white culture", other people see the height of Western Civilization. . Immigrants and minorities would do well to stop worrying about "cultural appropriation" and to start to try to acquire the WASP values which produced the US Constitution and great peace and prosperity. The Tea Party is scared to death by the fact that white people will soon be a minority. I believe that if the new "majority minority" can make real our traditional value system, everyone in the US can prosper. The alternative is a new Dark Ages and a return to barbarism.
4
bell hooks
4
The next time some idiot activist complain about Macklemore or Iggy Azalea doing "cultural appropriation" ask them if they are aware that nearly EVERY West Coast gangsta rap video features things that are copied from Mexican-American culture (ie. lowriders, khaki attire)? Ask them if they are aware that Snoop Dogg (aka Doggfather) and 2pac (Makaveli) imitated Italians in so many ways from their alternate nicknames to their famous "2 of Amerika's Most Wanted" video? Ask them about the Wu Tang Clan?
Also, ask them if they think ukuleles are traditional Hawaiian instruments. Nobody in Hawaii had an ukulele until a bunch of Portuguese laborers brought their mini-guitars with them!
Cultures appropriate each other all the time! Get over it already!
Also, ask them if they think ukuleles are traditional Hawaiian instruments. Nobody in Hawaii had an ukulele until a bunch of Portuguese laborers brought their mini-guitars with them!
Cultures appropriate each other all the time! Get over it already!
12
One of the obvious conclusions to draw from articles like these is that there is no such thing as "American culture," a view that would be astonishing to a world beyond America that feels dominated by the products and assumptions of American culture. I wonder what bell hooks would make of The Ramones and other aspects of the punk scene. Were they simply products of a bland white mainstream? Perhaps she's never heard Bluegrass. Perhaps the work of Martha Graham, Mark Rothko, Aaron Copland and the list goes on doesn't engage her. Perhaps American theater, including musical theater bores her along with American literature from Whitman to Didion to Roth and American film from Keaton to Scorsese. That's her problem and perhaps this author's problem, not the problem of those people with a broader understanding who revel in this culture and love it even as they may question the health of the country that produces it as I do.
This notion, that there is in effect no such thing as American culture, only subcultures from which something called "mainstream" culture steals, is an absurdity, discussion of which makes understanding what we actually have and where we actually live difficult to say the least.
This notion, that there is in effect no such thing as American culture, only subcultures from which something called "mainstream" culture steals, is an absurdity, discussion of which makes understanding what we actually have and where we actually live difficult to say the least.
13
Gandhi cribbed nonviolence from the Sermon on the Mount? Your statement disregards HIndu/Jain beliefs in ahimsa, which is at the core of those belief systems. I found your statement shocking and totally out of context. The fact that Gandhi was inspired by Christian texts supports his belief that God doesn't come packaged in one religion. But to say he "cribbed nonviolence from the Sermon of the Mount" makes me think you've never read the Bhagavad Gita.
5
Why is it acceptable for Blacks to adopt basketball, (a game invented by a straight white male,) or Native Americans to prefer pickup trucks to horses, (animals appropriated from the Spanish.) This discussion is really just about money: it's OK for the poor to appropriate the customs or inventions of the wealthier majority, but they seem to expect to be paid if anyone tries to appropriate aspects of their culture.
7
The article does not address the underlying process of cultural appropriation by commodification. We are living in a society that any idea or concept can be transformed into its "exchange value" by creating a product for general consumption. Thus, the challenge is not appropriation by one or another group but by forces shaping our culture that tend to minimize and alleviate the context for its production (as in the hair issue noted by the author). Let me leave with Guy Debord (Society of the Spectacle,
The images detached from every aspect of life fuse in a common stream in which the unity of this life can no longer be reestablished. Reality considered partially unfolds, in its own general unity, as a pseudo-world apart, an object of mere contemplation. The specialization of images of the world is completed in the world of the autonomous image, where the liar has lied to himself. The spectacle in general, as the concrete inversion of life, is the autonomous movement of the non-living.
The images detached from every aspect of life fuse in a common stream in which the unity of this life can no longer be reestablished. Reality considered partially unfolds, in its own general unity, as a pseudo-world apart, an object of mere contemplation. The specialization of images of the world is completed in the world of the autonomous image, where the liar has lied to himself. The spectacle in general, as the concrete inversion of life, is the autonomous movement of the non-living.
Wish I could remember the source of this story: An English businessman, in suit and tie, was meeting with similarly-dressed businessmen from Asia and the Middle East. One of the others remarked that it was interesting that the English, unlike the other cultures, seemed to have no unique national costume. The Englishman replied, "We do sir. You are wearing it."
This discussion is silly.
This discussion is silly.
20
One of us is a naturalized American of Vietnamese origin. Oh, no! Do you really mean to tell me that I have to give up pastrami sandwiches and matzo ball soup because I am engaging in “cultural appropriation”? Well, I’m not giving my non-Vietnamese wife back—we’ve been married 40 years.
What do we live in cities for? What’s the point of civilization? Different cultures are treasures of human heritage to be enjoyed by all. Are we supposed to hunker down in caves, each with our own group, to preserve the purity and authenticity of our respective cultures? Everyone’s life would be diminished.
What do we live in cities for? What’s the point of civilization? Different cultures are treasures of human heritage to be enjoyed by all. Are we supposed to hunker down in caves, each with our own group, to preserve the purity and authenticity of our respective cultures? Everyone’s life would be diminished.
32
Thank you! In two paragraphs you have utterly and effortlessly demolished the absurd and ridiculous argument made by this article.
8
Oh, Lord!! This is why this "cultural appropriation" conversation will go no where….you guys don't get it. Most people who are upset over what they consider "cultural appropriation" are upset NOT because they think people of other cultures have no right to embrace, enjoy and appreciate their culture, BUT because there seems to be a pattern that the culture expression is only embrace-able, enjoyable and a positive IF it's expressed by a white person. Take cornrows, for instance, cornrows on a black person are not viewed in this society as a positive thing. On a black person, they are seen as ghetto, thuggish, lower class, etc. On a trendy white person, they are fashion forward, edgy and cool. Put yourself in the shoes of the average black person, does't that feel like a slap in the face to you? Same goes with the gelled down baby hair trend. And many fashion magazines didn't do their homework and made the erroneous mistake of thinking that the fashion world made it up (ehm, don't they take the subway ever?). Give credit where credit is due ESPECIALLY if you are making money off of it. When you do that, you show appreciation of another's culture. When you don't, you discount the original source, which to the people who the culture belongs to feels like an insult. And since, we don't do that when we borrow from the Greek, or French or Russian cultures, we should not do that when we borrow from the African American cultures.
4
So if .....finally, some white people think a non-white trend is cool, you still mad?
7
You know we've reached the silly season when it's become de rigueur to appropriate gay male culture and then criticize gay men for "appropriating" it back.
3
Hip-hop, African-American? Or is it just a modern version of something else? From Wikipedia: "The patter song is characterised by a moderately fast to very fast tempo with a rapid succession of rhythmic patterns in which each syllable of text corresponds to one note.[2] It is a staple of comic opera, especially Gilbert and Sullivan, but it has also been used in musicals and elsewhere"
Hmm. There is nothing new under the sun.
Hmm. There is nothing new under the sun.
5
Dont forget that much of hip-hop is an appropriation of what those white German guys Kraftwerk were doing in the 1970s. They're acknowledged by Dr Dre, Grandmaster Flash and Afrika Bambataa as inspirations!
7
We are all part of the same dysfunctional family of homo sapiens. We all contribute to the culture of this family, and we all are influenced by other members of the family. We all own this culture. Thus, there is no such thing as cultural appropriation because no one owns culture.
6
The utter vacuity of the idea of "the white Western world’s co-opting of minority cultures" is silly beyond belief. Cultures, by definition, seek to grow and influence outsiders, so the construct of appropriation is pure and simple intellectual dog-do. The notion of cultural appropriation is aimed at trying to reinforce group over individuals identities, giving cover for these groups to make selfish claims on society.
20
the problems start when the culture borrowed from is deemed primitive and inferior.
7
It is surely moronic to even begin to think a "culture" belongs to any particular group. Maybe we've offended the ancient Greeks by co-opting their style of sculpture on use of roots in our language. We have all borrowed, every one of us in our cultures, from those who came before us and those who came after. Are we offending the French by learning French? Mickey Mouse is everyone's cartoon character. Chinese painting style, ancient or modern, is part of everyone... we are all human, and we can learn and enjoy and, indeed, imitate any human expression as part of our entirely human expression of being.
22
This article is what I call "meta-opinioning." We avoid experience with our opinions, which we use to substitute for actually interacting with someone who disagrees with us. We may not want to do what others want us to do. We may not care what other people think about what we do. But we pretend that we can be aware of everyone's needs, that if we are good enough we can meet everyone's needs and if we can't we aren't trying hard enough.
I'm going to use my energy to work with folks with mental health issues, health concerns, trauma from abuse. Then I'm going to play. If you don't like my cornrows, tough.
I'm going to use my energy to work with folks with mental health issues, health concerns, trauma from abuse. Then I'm going to play. If you don't like my cornrows, tough.
3
Integration of races and ethnic groups and sharing cultures makes for a healthy community and world. It is nonsense that cultural appropriation is wrong. We are all human and all cultures belong to all of us.
22
Interesting article I´ve worked with various cultures and have given me and believe that culture brings social and development in a country
4
This whole debate makes me laugh. Think of all the gifted Asian instrumentalists carrying on the tradition of Western classical music; of ethnically African poets creating wonderful tapestries with the English language; of the Latin ballet masters reinventing the traditionally European art of the dance. Should they be shut down? This is cultural appropriation!
13
As a white person, I have been so hurt by seeing people of other races using electricity, vaccines and indoor plumbing! Really? Really? Of all the desperate ploys anybody has ever invented to win attention and and intellectual mystique, none is more artificial than the notion of "cultural appropriation." To level this charge is to reek of some race based inferiority complex - an innately absurd neurosis no one should suffer from. ALL customs, ALL culture, ALL WAYS OF LIFE are spread by people adopting or imitating from observation that which appeals to them. There can be no rules attached to this. By this notion's inherent logic, btw, the rules would essentially boil down to "white people can't do it."
11
Toilets, vaccines and the lightbulb are inventions and not attributable to cultural identity. Black inventirs do not consider their inventions ,when used by whites ,cultural appropriation. For instance a Black man invented the. home video gaming console, another invented the carbon filament in light bulbs, millions of all races have had their eyesight saved because of an invention by a Black doctor--the Laserphaco probe used in cataract surgery. A black man invented mobile refrigeration enabling the transport of spoil able foods.
You have used a false equivalency to dismiss instead of understanding why people of color are objecting to cultural appropriation by whites.
You have used a false equivalency to dismiss instead of understanding why people of color are objecting to cultural appropriation by whites.
6
check your history books-the Egyptians invented indoor plumbing. don't think that all beneficial things were created by whites, many inventions and discoveries were appropriated from "minorities". The idea of no rules in adapting, adopting and taking what appeals to us was the hallmark of colonialism and the devastation of world populations by white Pilgims, missionaries and explorers. It is not that white people can't do that-it is that there should be some sensitivity to all that came before your sense of entitlement.
2
People of color are rightfully angry that so many Whites think nothing of taking elements of their culture, while denigrating, belittling, or penalizing them for having it, and then flaunting their appropriations as suddenly wonderful and acceptable, and even invented by them.
This white supremacist mindset is not new. White invaders and plunderers routinely named, for instance, mountains, and rivers in those lands usually occupied for millennia by people of color, who certainly, like any culture, had already named their landmarks. Since these people had no relevancy either, White invaders renamed them too,
In fact, those White supremacists did not considered it "renaming" the lands in which they "discovered"--America, for instance-- as if the people already there, and their ancient identity with their homeland meant nothing, was nothing until they arrived. That seems to be why Jeb Bush could so easily dismiss the objections of those who want the Washington Redskins to change their name.
Art critics to this day consider the exquisite African sculpture and masks which Picasso copied during his "Negro Period "primitive", but the Spanish artist's work high art.
Exploiting by imitating Black culture for financial gain by whites in the music business while enjoying all of the benefits of White Skin privilege, for instance, is galling and not justified by calling it "cross pollination". I applaud those young people who are calling them out.
This white supremacist mindset is not new. White invaders and plunderers routinely named, for instance, mountains, and rivers in those lands usually occupied for millennia by people of color, who certainly, like any culture, had already named their landmarks. Since these people had no relevancy either, White invaders renamed them too,
In fact, those White supremacists did not considered it "renaming" the lands in which they "discovered"--America, for instance-- as if the people already there, and their ancient identity with their homeland meant nothing, was nothing until they arrived. That seems to be why Jeb Bush could so easily dismiss the objections of those who want the Washington Redskins to change their name.
Art critics to this day consider the exquisite African sculpture and masks which Picasso copied during his "Negro Period "primitive", but the Spanish artist's work high art.
Exploiting by imitating Black culture for financial gain by whites in the music business while enjoying all of the benefits of White Skin privilege, for instance, is galling and not justified by calling it "cross pollination". I applaud those young people who are calling them out.
7
No one owns their own culture. There's no copyright on it. When you put it out there, you share it. Culture can't be "stolen" when it has been given freely. People who object to Others adopting "their" culture are trying to enforce otherness in a bigoted way. Any individual or group trying to own a culture as a piece of social capital that no one else may use or enjoy without guilt, is doing harm to the larger society.
Culture is a way people come together. It's not bad to mix it up.
Culture is a way people come together. It's not bad to mix it up.
5
I think perhaps you are looking at history and human nature very narrowly. Many cultures throughout history were imperialist/expansionist, and every culture sees itself (or at least has aspirations of) being superior to all neighboring cultures.
I think you employ false equivalency when comparing African sculpture and masks to impressionist art. For one, the African art objects were actually ceremonial religious artifacts and not purely intended for aesthetics, so it’s a false comparison in many ways.
Galling only to someone who is convinced that this “cross pollination” comes from the worst intentions, without much evidence to support that claim.
I think you employ false equivalency when comparing African sculpture and masks to impressionist art. For one, the African art objects were actually ceremonial religious artifacts and not purely intended for aesthetics, so it’s a false comparison in many ways.
Galling only to someone who is convinced that this “cross pollination” comes from the worst intentions, without much evidence to support that claim.
4
Hey Memma, did you complain when Dr Dre, Snoop Dogg, Ice Cube and nearly every other West Coast gangsta rapper made tons of money with help of music videos showing lowriders and khaki attire (both appropriated from CHICANO culture)?
And even most of the hip-hop beats are based on what early hip-hop producers appropriated from German EDM pioneers Kratfwerk!
And even most of the hip-hop beats are based on what early hip-hop producers appropriated from German EDM pioneers Kratfwerk!
Nobody owns a culture.
23
What a fuss about nothing. Americans speak a Germanic language, spell with a Roman alphabet, count with Indian numbers, and the country's dominant religions all come from the Middle East. Everybody borrows from everybody, blacks from whites, whites from blacks, everyone from Asians, and it is and should all be good. The only problem is that to be considered morally worthy among progressives these days, white people are supposed to hate themselves, black people are supposed to be permanently angry, and everybody is supposed to pretend away problems arising from one particular religion.
24
Here we are in America, the "melting pot." We have at least one community of every people or tribe on earth (probably in NYC alone!) What is this "American Culture" but an ever changing, ever growing, ever becoming, even ever maddening thing?
From the moment Europeans landed in what became the USA (the Spanish invading the Rio Grande from Mexico), we have been "appropriating" adapting, adopting, down right stealing: words, names, habits, dress, spiritual norms. Do you really want to live in an America without corn, many beans, turkeys, chile, potatoes, etc.?
Worse than "appropriating" has been the fact that whatever the dominate culture has been, it has attempted - mostly successfully - to force all others to "appropriate" whatever is their norm. "Speak English!" the immigrant mother shouts at her son. Act like America!
Can and do people parody cultural difference? Of course. Xenophobia is a basic human trait. Laughing at it somehow makes it controllable. A green hat on St. Paddy's day. A menorah in a nod to our Jewish neighbors. (Oh, the guilt. I love bagels but never remember to acknowledge who they came from!) Downing margaritas on Cinco de Mayo without a clue?
Yes, idiots denigrate others by "appropriating" some part of in a sleazy way. Well, duh! Did the sun come up in the east this morning?
All culture is accretion. Nothing lives in isolation. We are the sum of all before us: peanuts, pinatas, "What's up?", etc. Live a life full of everything we are!
From the moment Europeans landed in what became the USA (the Spanish invading the Rio Grande from Mexico), we have been "appropriating" adapting, adopting, down right stealing: words, names, habits, dress, spiritual norms. Do you really want to live in an America without corn, many beans, turkeys, chile, potatoes, etc.?
Worse than "appropriating" has been the fact that whatever the dominate culture has been, it has attempted - mostly successfully - to force all others to "appropriate" whatever is their norm. "Speak English!" the immigrant mother shouts at her son. Act like America!
Can and do people parody cultural difference? Of course. Xenophobia is a basic human trait. Laughing at it somehow makes it controllable. A green hat on St. Paddy's day. A menorah in a nod to our Jewish neighbors. (Oh, the guilt. I love bagels but never remember to acknowledge who they came from!) Downing margaritas on Cinco de Mayo without a clue?
Yes, idiots denigrate others by "appropriating" some part of in a sleazy way. Well, duh! Did the sun come up in the east this morning?
All culture is accretion. Nothing lives in isolation. We are the sum of all before us: peanuts, pinatas, "What's up?", etc. Live a life full of everything we are!
13
It seems to me the outrage over cultural appropriation has sprung up in these years since people can more easily view and compare over social media what others are doing.
The exchange of cultural identities will and must happen as our world continues to globalize. I think it's a good thing. As has been noted by others here, a good check is the distinction between flattery and mockery.
When a white guy wins a Grammy for a Hip-Hop song, that's not mockery. My music-studying teenager recently informed me that Blues is one of the most influential styles of music - and it came from African slave music. No one accused Elvis of cultural appropriation - (rightly so).
I have a love for Native American art, particularly pottery and jewelry from the Pueblos of New Mexico. Over the years I've purchased many pieces of jewelry in my travels there, which I wear often. I've never considered this cultural appropriation. I wear these pieces with pride. I often get compliments and when I do, I tell the stories of where they come from.
I think influences outside our own culture are good and make our world richer in the long run. In the mean time, I'm willing to live with the tension they produce.
The exchange of cultural identities will and must happen as our world continues to globalize. I think it's a good thing. As has been noted by others here, a good check is the distinction between flattery and mockery.
When a white guy wins a Grammy for a Hip-Hop song, that's not mockery. My music-studying teenager recently informed me that Blues is one of the most influential styles of music - and it came from African slave music. No one accused Elvis of cultural appropriation - (rightly so).
I have a love for Native American art, particularly pottery and jewelry from the Pueblos of New Mexico. Over the years I've purchased many pieces of jewelry in my travels there, which I wear often. I've never considered this cultural appropriation. I wear these pieces with pride. I often get compliments and when I do, I tell the stories of where they come from.
I think influences outside our own culture are good and make our world richer in the long run. In the mean time, I'm willing to live with the tension they produce.
8
Actually, black musicians did accuse Elvis of appropriation. No white person did. However, Elvis and other "cover" artists were allowed to produce and get airplay and sell records and enjoy residual rights to the mainstream when "Race" music made by blacks was not legal. This is the definition of appropriation. The question is not whether or not there should be cultural exchange. It is whether or not it is given or taken and whether or not it is done respectfully.
1
Sorry, but Elvis was plenty accused of stealing black people's music.
1
Cultural "appropriation" is a good phenomenon akin to cultural "assimilation."
Aren't we all striving to become a truly multicultural society where everyone appreciates what others bring to the neighborhood?
Aren't we all striving to become a truly multicultural society where everyone appreciates what others bring to the neighborhood?
5
Exploitation is not the same as assimilation.
"Akin to" is different from "the same as." No one owns a culture. I can dress how I want, make the music I want, and produce the art I want. Following external influences is not necessarily stealing.
1
Some years ago I was on the board of a community choir in Vancouver, B.C. that was in the process of putting together a program of Canadian folk music. One of the widely published and performed songs proposed was from what is referred to in Canada as a "First Nation" source (can't recall the song or the tribe). OMG did the fertilizer ever hit the air conditioner.
Personally I was somewhat bewildered by the position that we had no right to "appropriate" this song when our intention was to celebrate various regions and cultures. We were told we would have to get permission. Who to ask? Who knew what understanding there was between the tribal members and the anthropologist who first transcribed it. We were told that various bits of cultural property were in fact specific to individual families. Well we certainly tried but as I recall we had little success and ended up not using the song.
My strongest memory from this whole kerfuffle was the oh-so-PC choir member who felt that the incident indicated the need for the choir to undergo an "unlearning racism" workshop. It just so happened that her partner could facilitate such a workshop, for a not inconsiderable fee.
Personally I was somewhat bewildered by the position that we had no right to "appropriate" this song when our intention was to celebrate various regions and cultures. We were told we would have to get permission. Who to ask? Who knew what understanding there was between the tribal members and the anthropologist who first transcribed it. We were told that various bits of cultural property were in fact specific to individual families. Well we certainly tried but as I recall we had little success and ended up not using the song.
My strongest memory from this whole kerfuffle was the oh-so-PC choir member who felt that the incident indicated the need for the choir to undergo an "unlearning racism" workshop. It just so happened that her partner could facilitate such a workshop, for a not inconsiderable fee.
13
Love the black hat on top in the "appropriation" image!!! The style was "appropriated" by the African-ancestry masters whose music would be "appropriated" by the nation of Brazil!
Live and in dancing color: www.salvadorcentral.com
Live and in dancing color: www.salvadorcentral.com
As a white male who married outside his ethnic group, I fear that people opposed to "cultural appropriation'' would consider my marriage and bi-ethnic children an atrocity far more dastardly than the horror of wearing dreadlocks or a kimono for Halloween...
5
"Appropriation", the main theme of this article, seems to be about Whities stealing elements of style from other cultures.
I look at it differently. Artists -- musicians, writers, performers, painters, fashion designers, architects, sculptors -- create because there is an inner force in them to create. They create with what they've got, and they create in forms what moves them.
We're not belly-aching about the Moore influence on Roman style, or on the Russian literary influence of the nineteenth century on the movie industry in America in the nineteen-seventies.
We're belly-aching because we can't comprehend how this is can happen.
This can happen exactly because we can't comprehend it.
I say let it be. We can't stop it; we are powerless against a movement that is so prevalent.
And why SHOULD we stop it? America is the melting pot. Put in anything new and the culture will absorb it, both ways: everything gets transformed, and you can't identify the receiver or distinguish it from the giver.
"Cultural appropriation" is a brand new term in political correctness. It makes an issue of a natural event; to make it even more disturbing as PC, the event can't even be decided for sure if it is for or against political correctness.
This tops the cake. "Are we okay, or should we feel guilty? On the grounds of what is right and what is wrong." We can't decide that very crucial pivot. Why not let artists do what they do best? Do their art.
I look at it differently. Artists -- musicians, writers, performers, painters, fashion designers, architects, sculptors -- create because there is an inner force in them to create. They create with what they've got, and they create in forms what moves them.
We're not belly-aching about the Moore influence on Roman style, or on the Russian literary influence of the nineteenth century on the movie industry in America in the nineteen-seventies.
We're belly-aching because we can't comprehend how this is can happen.
This can happen exactly because we can't comprehend it.
I say let it be. We can't stop it; we are powerless against a movement that is so prevalent.
And why SHOULD we stop it? America is the melting pot. Put in anything new and the culture will absorb it, both ways: everything gets transformed, and you can't identify the receiver or distinguish it from the giver.
"Cultural appropriation" is a brand new term in political correctness. It makes an issue of a natural event; to make it even more disturbing as PC, the event can't even be decided for sure if it is for or against political correctness.
This tops the cake. "Are we okay, or should we feel guilty? On the grounds of what is right and what is wrong." We can't decide that very crucial pivot. Why not let artists do what they do best? Do their art.
7
We are all ethnic.
5
Cultural appropriation: how ridiculous. My family came from Japan over 120 years ago. I have a Japanese face but do not speak the language, have never been there and know nothing about the culture. So should I or should I not have Japanese paintings at my house or cook Japanese food? On another note, I am sick of being classified as a Japanese-American. I am American first and really only. Why, after over 100 years do I still need this classification? Do we hear of British-Americans after one generation? Or German-Americans? No. They are treated differently because they "blend" in with the crowd. That is racial inequality at its best and worst.
10
Anything look sillier than black people with blonde hair? Cuts both ways, doesn't it?
10
There's a different between engagement and appropriation. This article does nothing to flesh that distinction out but it's a useful one and could lead to a more meaningful discussion.
2
The problem with cultural appropriation is that it is an inherently subjective phenomenon, to both the appropriators and appropriatees. My white, Iowa-raised yoga-instructor friend was never given grief by our black, politically aware friends for his dreadlocks. We have prominent black artists encouraging the idea of cultural exchange. Who is the gatekeeper of moral and ethical action? There are some acts I think we all would consider clear outrage, like casting of white actors/actresses in ethnic roles (as if we didn't have enough talented people of all ethnicities to fill them), but the spectrum of outrage runs the gamut, up to people suggesting that Thai fusion is an appropriating abomination, or that Caucasian chefs should never cook or incorporate ethnic foods.
This sentiment would literally make all of our lives blander if it were widely adopted. How long should people of another culture wait before experiencing an event, a hairstyle, a type of dance or form of art they're interested in? Who decides whether they've shown the origin culture the appropriate respect? I believe we should all make an effort to inform ourselves and others of where and why cultural practices originated, but the current outcry about appropriation is more about shaming than educating, and paints cultural exchange as a zero-sum game. Reality is not so black and white.
This sentiment would literally make all of our lives blander if it were widely adopted. How long should people of another culture wait before experiencing an event, a hairstyle, a type of dance or form of art they're interested in? Who decides whether they've shown the origin culture the appropriate respect? I believe we should all make an effort to inform ourselves and others of where and why cultural practices originated, but the current outcry about appropriation is more about shaming than educating, and paints cultural exchange as a zero-sum game. Reality is not so black and white.
18
No one owns anything they didn't personally create. You don't have a right to something or the right to claim others have stolen it unless you personally did it in the first place. Your ethnic background gives you no special connection to Jazz if you're black or borscht belt comedy if you're jewish, unless you happen to be Miles Davis or Henny Youngman.
39
Perfect, Todd. My Dad moved to this country as a teenager from the Middle East. He's the definition of cowboy and has been for decades. Not because he wanted to appropriate an iconic American image, but because he really is a cowboy. People need to get over themselves. Now get over to Bien Caribbean Latino and order a roasted corn for me.
7
Culture and ethnicity are largely inherited constructs. First you are told you are (insert identifying terms), and maybe you reconsider parts (e.g. adopting a different hairstyle).
No one alive today created many of the practices that are the subject of such angst, so the sense of cultural possessiveness seems to be bound up in perceptions of superiority and anger stemming from other issues.
Half the problem is solved if we accept that whatever white culture is, it's certainly not superior to any other form. The other half is the tricky part: many non-whites in the U.S. deal with mind-boggling and long-standing discriminatory injustice in their everyday lives. One need only read NYTimes articles about 3Ps – policing, prosecuting and public schools – to gain an appreciation for what might also be stirring anger.
No one alive today created many of the practices that are the subject of such angst, so the sense of cultural possessiveness seems to be bound up in perceptions of superiority and anger stemming from other issues.
Half the problem is solved if we accept that whatever white culture is, it's certainly not superior to any other form. The other half is the tricky part: many non-whites in the U.S. deal with mind-boggling and long-standing discriminatory injustice in their everyday lives. One need only read NYTimes articles about 3Ps – policing, prosecuting and public schools – to gain an appreciation for what might also be stirring anger.
4
As a black person, I've felt the pang of "appropriation" quite a bit in my time. But there's a distinction to be made between the "flattery" of imitation and the insult of mockery. Cultural engagement, the term we ought to use when a person studies a culture thoroughly, appreciates it, and shows that she is not merely a tourist, can be a great thing. That's the situation in which we can all learn to respect each other.
Cherry-picking pieces of another culture (i.e. appropriation), especially just for the spectacle or a quick buck, is insulting and divisive. This article is right, the internet is at everyone's fingertips, so we all have the ability to know more. Taking a piece of culture and calling it something different, or worse yet, only accepting a certain cultural identifier once it's displayed by someone outside of it, is inexcusable (read: cornrows being discovered by vogue, afros on white people despite blacks not being able to wear them in corporate settings without backlash).
Do your homework, and you should gain the respect necessary to keep you from straight up exploiting a culture. If you do your homework and still appear exploitative, you're just being rude and you should be called out for it. All of it is avoidable, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't have our eye out for when appropriation occurs.
Cherry-picking pieces of another culture (i.e. appropriation), especially just for the spectacle or a quick buck, is insulting and divisive. This article is right, the internet is at everyone's fingertips, so we all have the ability to know more. Taking a piece of culture and calling it something different, or worse yet, only accepting a certain cultural identifier once it's displayed by someone outside of it, is inexcusable (read: cornrows being discovered by vogue, afros on white people despite blacks not being able to wear them in corporate settings without backlash).
Do your homework, and you should gain the respect necessary to keep you from straight up exploiting a culture. If you do your homework and still appear exploitative, you're just being rude and you should be called out for it. All of it is avoidable, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't have our eye out for when appropriation occurs.
10
And yet who gets to be the judge of what's 'culturally appropriation'? You, based on your ethnic background? What if someone else from the same background disagrees? By setting yourself up as the moral arbitrator of what others are allowed to use and who deserves 'respect' vs. who should be 'called out', you've put yourself in a position of false superiority.
9
Should we Americans protest when people in other countries wear blue jeans, a piece of clothing that developed during the California Gold Rush of 1849 and so is part and parcel of our history? But of course the word "denim" comes from French originally, as that's where the cloth came from. Or maybe the Japanese should stop wearing European dress -- suits & skirts -- and go back to wearing kimono? When Western women go to Saudi Arabia, they're required to wear an abaya. But I wonder whether it would be acceptable for a Western man to wear one of the white thawbs that the Saudi men wear?
Anyway, in this day and age, when they serve sushi at baseball parks and you can get bagels in Japan, when Jpop and Kpop are as popular as hip hop and a Korean song still holds the record for most-viewed music video on Youtube, I don't see why people are so fussed if clothing too goes international.
Anyway, in this day and age, when they serve sushi at baseball parks and you can get bagels in Japan, when Jpop and Kpop are as popular as hip hop and a Korean song still holds the record for most-viewed music video on Youtube, I don't see why people are so fussed if clothing too goes international.
8
Stop the presses! Cultural appropriation is going on relentlessly all the time, much of it is unconscious, much of it is unattributed. Europe, and hence America, received a massive infusion of Mediterranean culture when Northern Europeans appropriated the culture of the Roman Empire. Some of it was imposed; some of it was willingly accepted. "Dominant" cultures are affected as well: we wear trousers today, not togas. However, like so much of what the Times does, they are trying to fit it into their tired template of racial exploitation.
5
Ms. Parul Segal is a hypocrite. She works in the New York literary world, which is clearly a product of WASP culture, but she is not a WASP.
Please stop appropriating my culture!
Please stop appropriating my culture!
7
Does anyone in these articles and protests ever consider how much of "white culture" has been appropriated by minorities? Of course, as whites we simply considered it assimilation and welcomed it. But in today's intellectual climate, the shoe seems never to be on the other foot.
4
what is cultural appropriation? Girls wearing kilts for field hockey? Wearing Aran sweaters when you are neither irish nor a fisherman? Drinking Scotch? wearing madras? wearing a dirndl to sell beer at your local Octoberfest? Having a pierced nose? pierced ears?wearing silk? wearing cotton? trousers for women? skirts for men? French kissing? Toga parties? a tourist shop kimono?
Life and costumes are fluid. So in fact is culture. So go out. Have a taco, have some Korean Barbeque, or escargot or feijoada. wear jeans, no matter where you come from, tattoos are optional, do whatever works with the hair you've got and be happy. Children are starving. There are much more important things to worry about than why Lawrence of Arabia dressed like that. It is a free Country. Men can even dress as women and vice versus.
There is only one earth and we are all on it together.
Life and costumes are fluid. So in fact is culture. So go out. Have a taco, have some Korean Barbeque, or escargot or feijoada. wear jeans, no matter where you come from, tattoos are optional, do whatever works with the hair you've got and be happy. Children are starving. There are much more important things to worry about than why Lawrence of Arabia dressed like that. It is a free Country. Men can even dress as women and vice versus.
There is only one earth and we are all on it together.
52
If only it were so easy to sort out "pure" cultures, not already influenced by others'. Since the first humans began leaving Africa we have been migrating, intermarrying, borrowing, appropriating, exchanging, and stealing. Some of this may be done out of respect, some ignorance, some as theft, some as fun. Let's tango . . .
4
It is, and has always been, in the nature of art and culture to be inspired by others and to create newness from a mixing of different sources. The unstated principle in this article is that such mixing should only be allowed to occur amongst people who are already like one another: whites from whites, Koreans from Koreans, etc. Why does the author want to erect racial boundaries to learning from, and even experimenting with, aspects of each other's cultures? It is never wrong for a person to be inspired by another person, regardless of the colors of their skin. We need more exchange of ideas and perspectives, not less, and labeling it "Cultural Appropriation" when the learner is from a more privileged part of society only creates more barriers to sharing freely and openly. If the author had her way, the world would only be a much more culturally impoverished and divided place. Sometimes people may not like when others imitate, modify, and learn from what they've done, but much beauty and understanding comes of it.
10
Another example of the "victim culture" prevalent in America. In traveling all over the world, I have never seen any other cultures react the way certain facets of American Society do. In the UK, the Netherlands, Germany, just to cite three examples, there is no angst over adopting and integrating other cultures into their everyday lives Should some people be offended when another culture adopts blonde hair, drawing on one of the key examples. Are certain hairstyles reserved only for certain cultures?
"Cultural appropriation without attribution is akin to theft. ." WOW! Hope that poster isn't cooking Chinese food at home instead of going to a Chinese restaurant, so as not to appropriate Chinese cooking culture. Oh, but that's OK. Or dresses in Lederhosen for Halloween. One argument against my statement is that normal people know the cultural references. What cultures common in America are off limits? And which are not? Cinco de Mayo, perhaps?
Some cultures have a double standard. They have no problem "appropriating" other cultures, but want to make their own exclusive. Even though within their own culture, there are significant cultural differences, that some in one facet of the entire culture have no problem "appropriating."
"Cultural appropriation without attribution is akin to theft. ." WOW! Hope that poster isn't cooking Chinese food at home instead of going to a Chinese restaurant, so as not to appropriate Chinese cooking culture. Oh, but that's OK. Or dresses in Lederhosen for Halloween. One argument against my statement is that normal people know the cultural references. What cultures common in America are off limits? And which are not? Cinco de Mayo, perhaps?
Some cultures have a double standard. They have no problem "appropriating" other cultures, but want to make their own exclusive. Even though within their own culture, there are significant cultural differences, that some in one facet of the entire culture have no problem "appropriating."
30
You describe the Asian American "protest" at the Museum of Fine Arts Boston...by TWO Americans...yet failed to account for the far larger COUNTER-protest by Asians who were not only not offended but found the entire brouhaha preposterous. The museum, quite rightly, took a lot of flak for caving.
13
I'm an old sixties lefty so I'm sorely tempted to nod my head and go along with the thesis of this article. But I can't do so in good conscience because lessening the porosity of cultural boundaries violates one of the primary purposes of art, which is, as I see it, pushing and violating boundaries--including cultural boundaries. The careful policing and maintenance of cultural boundaries are twin impulses that serve, among other functions, to keep us separated into classes or tribes. The clumsy and even offensive commercialization that the disrespect of cultural boundaries also enables is, to me, a small price to pay, literally and figuratively, for the breaking down of so many of the treasured barriers we have thrown up around our common humanity that, in the final analysis, serve primarily to define me or "us" in opposition to "them." So, to me, cultural appropriation is not only not always wrong, it's very nearly almost always right.
6
Blending and melding, with attribution or without, are intrinsic to cultural development. We consider the blends and accomodations we have grown up with to be entirely normal, without further reflection. Without the influence of medieval Christianity, for instance, most American Jews would probably be practicing polygamy....I find much of the current conversation about theft and misappropriation, to be on the shallow, and narrowly judgemental, side.
8
"Is Cultural Appropriation Always Wrong?"
Always wrong?? Is it ever wrong?
How is it wrong? It doesn't make sense to me.
Always wrong?? Is it ever wrong?
How is it wrong? It doesn't make sense to me.
14
Curiously, when someone from a "minority" community adopts "white" culture, we just call it "assimilation" and say it's a good thing.
1
people are individuals.
people see things they like from other individuals
trying to make it X's thing only or Y's thing only is not going to further relations, only cause them to further erode
im sorry but there is nothing wrong with seeing something you like, and doing it yourself
and its even worse when you call out a single group for doing it
people see things they like from other individuals
trying to make it X's thing only or Y's thing only is not going to further relations, only cause them to further erode
im sorry but there is nothing wrong with seeing something you like, and doing it yourself
and its even worse when you call out a single group for doing it
2
The response to this question is actually written into the headline. It's a leading question, to which the only appropriate answer is: "no, appropriation is generally wrong, cultural or otherwise." A far more useful discussion would involve the question: "when does 'borrowing' from a culture cease to be citational or respectful and become merely appropriation, which is a synonym for theft?" Until we can invent a more open-ended vocabulary for the idea of cross-cultural borrowing or citation, the conversation will end simply at the idea that any borrowing is theft and all theft is wrong. We build the conversations we want to have with the language we choose.
1
I think this is much ado about nothing. Just check out food and the continual interplay of cultures: things like tomatoes, potatoes which were indigenous to what we would call indigenous peoples in the Americas. Think about the endless varieties of pastas, noodles and playing off each other inextricably bound by a culture of the interchange of cultures.
Of course cultures interact, copy, assimilate with each other and enrich each other and sometimes, unfortunately demean each other.
But no one owns a culture.
And of course, at the very center of culture is language which shapes so much, even our perceptions of reality. And stop and think of how language are really intercultural realities.
Of course cultures interact, copy, assimilate with each other and enrich each other and sometimes, unfortunately demean each other.
But no one owns a culture.
And of course, at the very center of culture is language which shapes so much, even our perceptions of reality. And stop and think of how language are really intercultural realities.
3
As a gay man, every time I see a straight dude with a goatee, i'm offended and just looking at Ryan Reynolds offends me. When will this stop!
3
What a great article. It's great to read something so thoughtful in an area of discussion in which most analysis is anything but thoughtful. Much enjoyed!
Is it cultural appropriation for Blacks to play Beethoven? Discuss the philosophy of Aristotle? Study quantum mechanics? Fly in an airplane engineered by members of Western civilization?
Must a Black engineer recognize he has adopted Western culture and show it proper respect?
Any sane person would say no to each of these. Yet Westerners are supposed to bow down in deference to Blacks when they use some behavior attributed to Black popular culture. What gall.
Must a Black engineer recognize he has adopted Western culture and show it proper respect?
Any sane person would say no to each of these. Yet Westerners are supposed to bow down in deference to Blacks when they use some behavior attributed to Black popular culture. What gall.
1
I feel like I need a lobotomy after reading this.
Human beings learn things from other humans. Some things become popular and spread around. This is why we eat noodles and write with an alphabet. There is interchange between every culture. We invent things and use new words when a better word comes up. The most powerful cultures are the ones that use better ideas when they come up.
Italians "appropriated" coffee and then Starbucks "appropriated" Italian espresso culture and spread it to Korea where they developed their own style of cafes. Good ideas spread around (and some bad ones too!)
Many Americans that modern academic know-nothings group together as "boring white western" people have complex multicultural backgrounds. That explains why they are willing to "appropriate" cultures-- their identity as Americans is appropriation by assimilation.
As person with Polish and Italian background I'll cook as much Korean food as I want and wear Indian clothes to my friend's wedding because I enjoy it. I buy African black soap on Amazon because I read about it in a novel and it's good for my white skin.
What sort of totalitarian society do these people imagine where I have to behave according to some sort of norm that fits my American racial designation? I would never want to impose that on anyone.
It's my life I'll do what I want!
Human beings learn things from other humans. Some things become popular and spread around. This is why we eat noodles and write with an alphabet. There is interchange between every culture. We invent things and use new words when a better word comes up. The most powerful cultures are the ones that use better ideas when they come up.
Italians "appropriated" coffee and then Starbucks "appropriated" Italian espresso culture and spread it to Korea where they developed their own style of cafes. Good ideas spread around (and some bad ones too!)
Many Americans that modern academic know-nothings group together as "boring white western" people have complex multicultural backgrounds. That explains why they are willing to "appropriate" cultures-- their identity as Americans is appropriation by assimilation.
As person with Polish and Italian background I'll cook as much Korean food as I want and wear Indian clothes to my friend's wedding because I enjoy it. I buy African black soap on Amazon because I read about it in a novel and it's good for my white skin.
What sort of totalitarian society do these people imagine where I have to behave according to some sort of norm that fits my American racial designation? I would never want to impose that on anyone.
It's my life I'll do what I want!
42
For all of recorded human history there has been ‘‘cross-pollination’’ or ‘‘cross-fertilization’’ when other cultures met. This is a very human phenomenon that has contributed to mutual progress, integration, and understanding of others. To argue that "cultural appropriation without attribution is akin to theft" is nonsense.
4
I assert my right to embrace any culture I choose, after traveling the world as a medical missionary. I have been a hippy, all my life, born in 1946, and many of the ways I acquired culturally significant clothing were as gifts from proud families. I am always stopped on the street or at work with inquiries about items I may be wearing, and gladly share what I know of the rich cultures I have been immersed, joyfully in. So call me a thief whose victims gave me things as a measure of pride and gratitude. I wear them all with pride and wonderful stories to go along with them, books about the culture from which they came. I find your sweeping generality insulting and petty.
13
Strange to think you did all this traveling and exploration, but write a comment that drips with unacknowledged privilege.
1
When referring to people from the country of India, please preface the word "Indian" with the word "Asian." To most Americans "Indian" refers to Native Americans who lived in North America before the arrival of Europeans. These Indians had great cultural traditions which were destroyed. With their cultures shattered most Indians now live hopelessly in severe poverty and pain with short life expectancy. The Indians were the original people of this continent and they lived in harmony with nature. They are the most overlooked and the most deserving minority in this country. Let us never forget, and let us never stop trying to repair, the damage we have done to American Indians.
Right, what we really need is culture police to analyze individual DNA to determine genetic appropriateness of all we wear, eat, listen to and have in our homes. So I guess I'll be forced to wear leiderhosen, listen to polkas and eat strudel.
29
@gw
Of course your specific DNA analysis might require you to eat borscht, dance the tango and wear tweed. Who knows?
Of course your specific DNA analysis might require you to eat borscht, dance the tango and wear tweed. Who knows?
I find this confusing. I must reveal that I am a 45 year-old white woman from Colorado--not much in the way of 'culture' to work with. But when I travel, and buy authentic cultural apparel from the places I visit, I love to bring it home and wear it in my own way, out of respect for and expressing my joy from the culture it represents. Is this wrong? I don't even know if I am offending with my terms, that is in no way my intent. I'm just enjoying an opportunity to express my fascination with, and affection for, others.
30
I find it astonishing that as a 'white woman from Colorado' you think you have 'not much in the way of culture' - and find White Americans' constant abnegation of their own culture frankly weird. No other culture acts this way, nor should they.
3
Cultures, like languages, are catching. This is a natural part of the human condition; we learn from each other. If it becomes fashionable in one culture to do something or wear something that previously was done only another culture, then it becomes a part of multiple cultures, and may survive longer. The members of a group do not "own" a way of doing things, a type of clothes, a style of music, a hairstyle, a way of speaking. It is just as ridiculous to suggest that cultures should not be "appropriated" as to suggest that they remain "pure", as, say, the French effort to reject foreign additions to the language. It is simply human to learn from others, and riff on it. (Not only human, as it it turns out; other animals have also been found to do this.) And, of course, imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.
5
There is such a thing a being fraud, a pastiche or a knock-off, but that reflects only on the individual making the "appropriation". I could not disagree more with the idea that appropriation is crime or a theft or even a minor transgression against any people. The fatal flaw homo sapiens is their tribalism and this thinking (and I am very, very much a liberal) is liberalism gone awry.
If one wants to break the world into tribes, they'd better be prepared for the tribal backlash. Remind me again whether this article was written by an Englishman, otherwise, I'm offended.
If one wants to break the world into tribes, they'd better be prepared for the tribal backlash. Remind me again whether this article was written by an Englishman, otherwise, I'm offended.
5
Your first sentence is the only one that matters: all cultures are mongrel. You should have stopped there, because that line essentially refutes the rest of your essay. Also, when you talk about "white Western culture," what you really mean to say is "ANGLO-SAXON" culture, because that is what America is (and Australia and all these other places that English speakers know). And, American Anglo-Saxon culture has appropriated from all sorts of cultures, including those who you might also called white and western, just not English.
If anything, appropriation works in every direction, not just one, as your essay suggests with the Hip Hop example. The error in your essay is reading culture into skin color or into ethnicity (the earlier appropriations of African American culture by white American culture without given recognition being the one exception). Culture is the milieu into which you grow up; it is not written into your blood and it is not an object you can hand to someone. As the child of immigrants, I grew up in a different country, a different culture, a different language; in short, a different everything, than my parents. Am I appropriating the culture of those around me if I like "their" music and "their" food, or am I simply being an American? In doing so, am I somehow not being true to my true background? Are there some aspects of culture that legitimately belong to someone and others that do not? Who decides?
If anything, appropriation works in every direction, not just one, as your essay suggests with the Hip Hop example. The error in your essay is reading culture into skin color or into ethnicity (the earlier appropriations of African American culture by white American culture without given recognition being the one exception). Culture is the milieu into which you grow up; it is not written into your blood and it is not an object you can hand to someone. As the child of immigrants, I grew up in a different country, a different culture, a different language; in short, a different everything, than my parents. Am I appropriating the culture of those around me if I like "their" music and "their" food, or am I simply being an American? In doing so, am I somehow not being true to my true background? Are there some aspects of culture that legitimately belong to someone and others that do not? Who decides?
9
I thought this piece had it right at the start, when it pointed out that all cultures are amalgams, a factual proposition that clearly points to the absurdity of making a normative claim that it is inherently improper to "appropriate" elements from other cultures. But I was wrong, for -- alas! -- the piece seems to have no thesis at all.
Why debate whether "appropriation" is more or less "provocative" than it is "pitiably uninformed and stale?" What does that even mean, and what does it have to do with whether "cultural appropriation" is a good thing or a bad one?More importantly, if the debate is worth the words, why avoid providing any reasoned support for either proposition?
It's an old rhetorical trick at work: reframe the issues. Had the author focused on the real issue (Is it wrong for a member of one culture to adopt, in speech or writing or personal appearance, elements from another?), the answer would be easy. OF COURSE it's ok, because cultural precepts are ideas, and in our law and society, "ideas are free as the air" -- and indeed, for very good reasons, our law and society not only allow but strongly encourage the unfettered sharing and adoption of ideas.
The only inhibitory principle is the idea of personal offense. But the law decided this a long time ago: a party can only complain of emotional distress that is "severe" and is the result of "extreme and outrageous conduct, beyond all norms of decency." That is a deservedly high standard.
Why debate whether "appropriation" is more or less "provocative" than it is "pitiably uninformed and stale?" What does that even mean, and what does it have to do with whether "cultural appropriation" is a good thing or a bad one?More importantly, if the debate is worth the words, why avoid providing any reasoned support for either proposition?
It's an old rhetorical trick at work: reframe the issues. Had the author focused on the real issue (Is it wrong for a member of one culture to adopt, in speech or writing or personal appearance, elements from another?), the answer would be easy. OF COURSE it's ok, because cultural precepts are ideas, and in our law and society, "ideas are free as the air" -- and indeed, for very good reasons, our law and society not only allow but strongly encourage the unfettered sharing and adoption of ideas.
The only inhibitory principle is the idea of personal offense. But the law decided this a long time ago: a party can only complain of emotional distress that is "severe" and is the result of "extreme and outrageous conduct, beyond all norms of decency." That is a deservedly high standard.
2
Nobody sees the irony in the assertion that *individuals* should, for the purposes of "owning" an idea, decide that, based on some superficial property they all share, treat themselves as a uniform population? There's already a word for this: racism.
5
What happens when people born in other countries migrant and live in the U.S.? Is it wrong for a Vietnamese man to wear a cowboy hat? Can an Indonesian girl be a cheerleader? Can a Pakistani have cornrows? When Caucasian people live in India, they dress in Indian fashions, and no one cares. Or is this article talking only about Americans living in America? Guess it's all about you guys, again.
9
I may stand alone, but I do believe that anyone who dares to affect my circa 80s, seemingly pseudo careless/neo-surburban cheap white girl style aping all those Benetton multi-culture wannabes henceforth commits the enflamed sin of co-opting me. I may not be Gap, Marc Jacobs, H & M or Ralph, but if you wear a genuine Scottish Highlands vintage kilt as a dress, high up across your boobs like mine (authentic), paired with anything resembling my handmade reindeer-hide Lapland boots, I swear to God, you're stealing my very soul.
7
Perhaps it is a matter of intent and acknowledgment. Creative intent in appropriation is akin to respect and admiration for the object being appropriated. When applied to a cultural custom or practice it acknowledges a spiritual impact if the other culture upon ours. It must be named. This issue is indeed complex, and will not be codified easily, just like love relationships and spontaneous friendship cannot be curtailed either. It also happens both ways. How do we feel about "exotic" societies adopting our language and values? Our imperialism?Their submission? Some of the best food, art and music has cone put of these exchanges. This conversation cannot comprehend the complexity of the phenomenon, although, of course, we must continue to try. It will never stop, and is good for us.
Cultural signs have always been borrowed/exhanged (the Romans borrowing from the Greeks etc). Cultures borrow or reject what works best for their own cultural landscape. The use of these cultural signs has always been complicated and can indicate appreciation, recognition, elite status and /or subjugation, and cultural hegemony. That different people read all this fluidity based on their own personal experiences - just adds to the confusion. But let's hope - that if we recognize what is going on and have a conversation about it, we will produce a rich cultural environment for all to participate in.
1
I would like to mention Percival Everett's wonderfully funny, subversive, and wicked story 'The Appropriation of Cultures' wherein a Southern black man manages to take over 'Dixie' and the confederate battle flag as the Southern black anthem and the Black Power flag to hilarious effect. A must read. I first came across it years ago as a reading on NPR's Selected Shorts. That reading has been on YouTube and still may be.
1
This is a genuinely evil idea, and I'm afraid it's time has come. Let's hope it burns itself out as quickly possible. Those people who are interested in your culture become your enemies because they are "appropriators" and those who are indifferent or hostile to your culture remain your enemies for obvious reasons. Why in the world would any sane immigrant want to paint themselves into this kind of corner?
Culture is not a zero sum game. When an outsider popularizes another culture with a "watered-down" version, it creates a market for the original that creates more wealth and opportunities for everyone. This is free publicity, not theft.
When you see someone who is practicing an art or adopting a style that would not be associated with their skin color, how will you decide who has been "authentic and respectful", and who has appropriated for effect? Will you do a two hour goggle search on that person, or make a snap judgment that results in a online pile-on of shaming? Probably the latter, making enemies out of people who would otherwise most likely have become friends.
Culture is not a zero sum game. When an outsider popularizes another culture with a "watered-down" version, it creates a market for the original that creates more wealth and opportunities for everyone. This is free publicity, not theft.
When you see someone who is practicing an art or adopting a style that would not be associated with their skin color, how will you decide who has been "authentic and respectful", and who has appropriated for effect? Will you do a two hour goggle search on that person, or make a snap judgment that results in a online pile-on of shaming? Probably the latter, making enemies out of people who would otherwise most likely have become friends.
6
Someone who attacks white women for wearing loose afros perhaps should also attack Michelle Obama for wearing straightened hair. Spare me, please.
15
Culture is always fluid and changing, undergoing reassessment at the time of transmission. People should be able to pick and choose what they borrow, not have it imposed upon. Naturally, when people borrow what they imperfectly understand, they will take only a few (to them) obvious features. This is what happened when white musicians borrowed from black in the US. At first they didn't borrow, because they didn't perceive, syncopation -- as with Stephen Foster's songs. Gradually, people are able to understand and perceive more of the culture of others. Imitation can be a form of understanding.
1
Leonardo da Vinci instructs that copying the masters is the way to learn to draw.
Pablo Picasso who referred to African masks in order to develop cubism famously said, "Good artists copy; great artists steal."
Irving Berlin, born a Russian Jew, had as his first hit, "Alexander's Ragtime Band" appropriated from the African-American, Scott Joplin. Berlin went on to write "God Bless America" and many other great songs.
The world has been enriched by great artists who are cultural appropriators.
Pablo Picasso who referred to African masks in order to develop cubism famously said, "Good artists copy; great artists steal."
Irving Berlin, born a Russian Jew, had as his first hit, "Alexander's Ragtime Band" appropriated from the African-American, Scott Joplin. Berlin went on to write "God Bless America" and many other great songs.
The world has been enriched by great artists who are cultural appropriators.
5
Cultures that have come into contact with other cultures have always borrowed elements, styles and ideas from those cultures. No one complains that Quechua women are inauthentic because they wear bowler hats. The French went through a period of Japanophilia in the 19th century; the Japanese responded by making porcelains for the European market. There was even a word for people who completely adopted a Japanese life style, it was "Tatamise." Algebra was invented by Arabs (the name, itself is Arabic), but there is no argument that says it shouldn't be taught to Westerners. In fact, I am pretty sure that Boko Haram (I know, they are not Arabs), would consider teaching it Boko Haram. Does that "purity" of ignorance benefit anyone? English itself is an amalgam of Indoeuropean languages. The list of cultural borrowings is as endless as culture itself. Rather than outrage, perhaps we should acknowledge that imitation is the sincerest form of flattery, and how, as a species, we advance by it.
4
History-all of it- fits rather poorly into this author's airy nonsense. Horsemanship adopted by Sioux, Christianity by black America slaves, high fives by white America. Then contemplating enforcement is scary. We will have to look hard at inter-racial marriage. I am running for the boondocks (an appropriated description) if this gets traction.
1
I think there will always be some close questions on this. But I think we can start doing some easy sorting. White people eating soul food or Thai food is not cultural appropriation. On the other extreme, using a religious symbol as a fashion statement outside of its religious context is. So I, as a white Christian, should not wear a yarmulke or a Sikh turban because I like the way they look. Anything you are doing to mock the other culture is not good. Anything that people of the other culture PERCEIVES as mocking is highly likely not to be good, although I can imagine situations where the perception is completely irrational, especially where there is disagreement among people of the potentially aggrieved group. People of European descent incorporating elements of African, Asian etc. style into their fashion, hair, art and music is cross pollination, not appropriation, IMO. As long as by adopting the style of a group you are not trying to be mistaken as being of that group (sorry, Ms. Dolezal). And there has to be no economic exploitation involved. If you are going to wear Native American style jewelry, get the real deal, not an imitation made in China. If you are a white person who enjoys soul food, consider who is making money off of it. Is the white celebrity chef profiting off the recipes of black women toiling away anonymously in her kitchen for 10 bucks an hour?
2
Cultural borrowing is the best way for a multi ethnic population to achieve social cohesion. If we continue to weaponize 'identity', there is no unity; no greater good and we fall apart.
4
Rimas, Are Americans respectful of German sausages in how we use hot dogs, or do we have to give them back?
8
Then how about the black folks wearing white linen as a symbol of everything comfortable, leisurely, summery, and aristocratic?Should it shock anyone to see crisp, white linen on black women and men given the historical connections to slavery and enslaved work in the cotton fields?
How is that being explained or naturalized? Is it just clothing? Is it aspirational? Is it ignorance? Is it re-appropriation?
How is that being explained or naturalized? Is it just clothing? Is it aspirational? Is it ignorance? Is it re-appropriation?
Unfortunately, things like ideas, philosophies, religions, music, art and textile designs aren't basketballs. You can't just throw a tantrum on the playground, take "your" toy, and go home.
The unwritten PC rule is: If you're from an oppressed group, it's ok to mock your oppressors by appropriating their dress, appearance, gestures, and other cultural features - as long as it's satirical. If you're just aping them, you've internalized your oppression. If you're doing it for sheer fun, you're deluded and are actually seeing yourself through their gaze. See Internalized Oppression, above.
If you are a member of a dominant group, you are never allowed to appropriate anything from any other group, ever. Nor are you allowed to celebrate your own culture, because you should be feeling guilty instead. You may be allowed to study other cultures at a great distance as long as you donate all proceeds. Dominants mocking or satirizing other cultures, is, of course, Bad x 10.
I don't necessarily buy into this rule, but it is a fragile truce.
If you are a member of a dominant group, you are never allowed to appropriate anything from any other group, ever. Nor are you allowed to celebrate your own culture, because you should be feeling guilty instead. You may be allowed to study other cultures at a great distance as long as you donate all proceeds. Dominants mocking or satirizing other cultures, is, of course, Bad x 10.
I don't necessarily buy into this rule, but it is a fragile truce.
5
Um, Ghandi may have been thinking of Sermon on the Mount, but he almost certainly had read Thoreau's "Civil Disobedience."
That is the cross-cultural influence.
That is the cross-cultural influence.
1
I think you meant bell hooks, not Bell Hooks.
1
That's not up to the author. It's a matter of the Times' house style.
Cultural appropriation speaks to two concepts: identity and reverence. People, in general, have strong attachments to their identities, and all that represents that identity. A lack of reverence on the part of others who dawn that identity in some form or another feels offensive.
All "American culture" is appropriated from the many races and ethnicities that have shaped this country. The same is true for other nations, as well. While I am not unsympathetic to the issue, I think "appropriation" helps cultures mingle and enriches us all, in the long run.
1
This prickly, oversensitive PC culture, one that takes offense at the slightest perceived "appropriation" or micro-agression, is so unreasonable that it's made itself more a butt of jokes than a serious discussion. Only in academia and the press is this stuff taken seriously.
To most of us, "politically correct" has become a phrase that represents an annoying and off-putting subculture of guilt trips, humorlessness and constant scrambling to be more-sensitive-than-thou.
At least in this editorial there are glimmers of recognition that all cultural borrowing may not be sinister. Thank you for that.
To most of us, "politically correct" has become a phrase that represents an annoying and off-putting subculture of guilt trips, humorlessness and constant scrambling to be more-sensitive-than-thou.
At least in this editorial there are glimmers of recognition that all cultural borrowing may not be sinister. Thank you for that.
2
Parul says that MGandhi cribbed non-violence from the Sermon on the Mount. That is as naive as one can get... may be she is even committing the very act of cultural appropriation... We Indians and HIndus do not have to learn non-violence from any one else... Have you all not heard of the Buddha... in our Shasthras or divine books, it says that Ahimsa Paramo Dharma = Non-violence in thought/word/deed is the highest ethics. Have you not heard of the Jains in India who cover their mouth lest they kill germs and insects! Sometimes or many a time, the West grabs ideas after a U-turn... so it's better naive examples are not gratuitously thrown around.
5
Hopefully, the term "cultural appropriation" will become archaic like its cousin, "miscegenation".
4
The line really doesn't seem blurry unless you want it to be. The moment there is deprivation to the original people that created the culture (such as white preferences for white faces only for music), that's when I believe its okay to cry foul.
But hip-hop is so far out there because of the success of African American acts. I mean we are talking an industry that has produced African American billionaires. Amanda is young and smart, but her analysis was rather flawed. Still, its a good discussion to have.
But hip-hop is so far out there because of the success of African American acts. I mean we are talking an industry that has produced African American billionaires. Amanda is young and smart, but her analysis was rather flawed. Still, its a good discussion to have.
Everywhere I travel, these "other cultures" are all but disappearing, drowned and replaced by a seemingly single bland commercial "culture" driven by popular and social media.
1
I think it is one thing to be a novelist who is getting into the minds of their characters, trying to understand and present what they think those characters, who may be of different cultures and personalities from the author, to a "celebrity" or artist who is appropriating a cultural look in an attempt to be cool or stylish or relevant without a deeper understanding of its significance or symbolism.
When wearing the symbols of one's culture is attacked for being out of mainstream, it can be disconcerting to see those same symbols used by members of the majority or dominant culture in a flip or disrespectful way. The costume-y effect is probably what critics are responding to when they criticize the appropriation of what they feels belongs to them: that they are not allowed to feel comfortable in their own skins while these people can walk around and just say, what's the big deal?
When wearing the symbols of one's culture is attacked for being out of mainstream, it can be disconcerting to see those same symbols used by members of the majority or dominant culture in a flip or disrespectful way. The costume-y effect is probably what critics are responding to when they criticize the appropriation of what they feels belongs to them: that they are not allowed to feel comfortable in their own skins while these people can walk around and just say, what's the big deal?
1
Yes, that is how I understood the article. Borrowing from another culture isn't a problem in itself. The dominant culture denigrating something in the minority culture and then borrowing it and suddenly considering it cool -- but only on themselves -- THAT'S the problem.
2
Throw it all in the melting pot and add a few logs to the fire. The globalization genie won't be coaxed back into the bottle.
3
The blanket rejection of "cultural appropriation" is actually quite terrible, in that it reinforces what is majority culture and what is minority -- whose is what's. Of course some forms of cultural appropriation are disrespectful (the use of Native American sacred symbols on underwear, alcohol flasks, and the like comes to mind). But there are good forms too - such as people of other ethnicities wearing Indian fabrics, or java print. If we always say "cultural appropriation!", we deny the possibility for other cultural styles & practices to influence us -- it just reinforces the mine/yours dynamic. Do we cry "cultural appropriation" when non-Americans wear jeans? Doing this with other "minority" cultural practices is awfully ungenerous to the power of, say, Indian or African-American culture. Let us all be influenced by them. Let other cultural practices spread among us and -- importantly -- be recognized and acknowledged.
2
The NY Times has made it clear that they are going to continue to gloss over this issue. Removing a cultural touchstone from its environment without doing the research to fully understand the significance and protocols involved is insensitive. I love hip hop and I am not black. I will not say the n-word, try to "own" someone else culture by dressing in stereotypical "hip hop garb". I can still love the music and culture without trying to steal it as my identity to (try to) look cool. Nothing was mentioned about the cultural appropriation of Native American cultures. The Redskins, the Braves tomahawk chop, headdresses used as fashion. This is why kids think Natives all live in teepees and that whooping with a hand fluttering on their mouth is ok. Times recently promoted this new age fakery in plug for a "new age center" with a white woman using a Native American hand drum to "heal" someone (or just take their cash) http://mobile.nytimes.com/2015/09/06/nyregion/maha-rose-in-greenpoint-of...
When I was growing up in Southeast Asia, I always thought that we, the locals, were always trying to "appropriate" the white Americans -- we perm our stick straight hair to get those beautiful waves, we tape our eyelids to create the illusion of deeper set eyes, we dance like white girls to appear "cool" and "edgy" to our peers, etc.
I guess I missed the memo that says that a culture can only be "appropriated" if it belongs to the "less powerful" side.
I guess I missed the memo that says that a culture can only be "appropriated" if it belongs to the "less powerful" side.
54
I don’t want to speak for you, but in my experience when the “less powerful side” adopts a practice, it’s about assimilation, not appropriation. For example, a black woman straightening her hair is a direct result of living in a society that has told black woman that it is unacceptable for them to wear their hair in the natural state that it grows out of their head. However, when some white socialite tries to mimic an Afro, rather than being seen as unacceptable, unkempt and unattractive, she’s praised for being different and edgy.
2
What you are describing was not cultural appropriation; it was a symptom of cultural deference to the Western dominance of the 19th and 20th century world.
Cultural appropriation seeks to obscure and eclipse its source material while cultural deference seeks to embrace and emulate it. See the difference?
Cultural appropriation seeks to obscure and eclipse its source material while cultural deference seeks to embrace and emulate it. See the difference?
1
It's not a memo, but there are many articles out there describing how cultural appropriation, like racism, is an oppressive tool of the dominant culture. The less dominant culture adopting the dominant culture is called assimilation, not appropriation. It's similar to how a black person can't be racist. Prejudiced, biased, sure, but not racist.
1
If you've done your research right, you would know Gandhi adopted his principles of non-violence not from Christianity, but from Jainism (an ethnic Indian religion that predates both Judaism and Christianity) for whom non-violence, or ahimsa, is the central principle.
Ahimsa also has great influence in Hinduism (of which Gandhi was a follower) and Buddhism, another religion that originated in India. All three religions significantly predate Abrahamic religions and the former two still hold significant sway in modern India- so your claim that Gandhi borrowed ahimsa from the New Testament is faintly ridiculous.
Ahimsa also has great influence in Hinduism (of which Gandhi was a follower) and Buddhism, another religion that originated in India. All three religions significantly predate Abrahamic religions and the former two still hold significant sway in modern India- so your claim that Gandhi borrowed ahimsa from the New Testament is faintly ridiculous.
16
Thanks for letting me know I should be outraged when I see all those green plastic derbies on St. Pat's.
27
I'm sympathetic to criticisms of "cultural appropriation," but simply can't get past the fact that Paul Simon's "Graceland" is one of the best pop albums ever recorded. There needs to be some room for synthesis--where members of one culture learn, absorb and adapt the cultural treasures of others for their own creative endeavors.
14
Why does there have to be room for synthesis? Everybody has culture in some form, we as people have to be content with the culture we have, no matter how dull or boring it might seem to ourselves, that is who we are. This dullness doesn't justify taking from other cultures to create a so called new and creative identity for ourselves, it's just plain ol stealing and represents a lack of creativity.
1
Baby, I'm hoping this is sarcastic. Because if you actually believe it then it is just plain sad.
4
Isn't wearing a suit cultural appropriation? Or using tartan? But a kilt and the garments of the Maasai look strikingly similar. It's all so confusing.
It's too much. Too much: as I recall, the expression is...Culture is something we do for tourists. (The Authenticity Hoax.) The point is that there is no "Reality" to all these claims of "culture." It a sham on top of a lie, on top of a series of assumptions. Lies. And we deserve to be lied to if we accept it as true "culture."
Defining the difference between “cultural appropriation” and “cultural exchange” is simple. When “people of color” borrow from white culture, it’s a cultural exchange. We think nothing of it when people of color borrow from white culture because the entire world copies white culture. When white people borrow from other cultures, it’s cultural appropriation. It’s okay for Sean Combs to wear a tuxedo to the American Music Awards, but not okay for Eminem to show up in a kaftan.
Cultural appropriation without attribution is akin to theft. Appropriating a culture, an affect, that could not possibly be your own, for profit, whether as a one-off, or as one's "shtick," at the expense of those artists and the culture that belongs to them is not only steals wealth from the culture of origin, but reduces it as, invariably, it is watered down for the perceived sensibilities of the target audience. In a world, and a nation, where the idea remains that Western culture reigns supreme, cultural appropriation will remain as morally wrong as the racism it sources from. This phenomenon is indeed not a new one. Elvis borrowed from Black artists rather heavily. Iggy Azalea shamelessly does that thing she does. Others are less blunt about their appropriation. Few show the culture they've adopted and its people their deserved respect. Eminem did it the right way. He moved up from within the culture and didn't just borrow from the outside. He has remained within it. He is authentic and respectful.
For as long as "American culture" is a watered down version of a distinct someone else' culture, it will be wrong. For as long as we remain in a path of cultural and educational decline, young artists will find less to draw from within their own cultural environment.
For as long as "American culture" is a watered down version of a distinct someone else' culture, it will be wrong. For as long as we remain in a path of cultural and educational decline, young artists will find less to draw from within their own cultural environment.
23
But never in history are the things people lift, wholesale or otherwise, attached with little tags that say "borrowed from x culture, with permission." Cultures have absorbed ideas, imitated rituals, adopted mannerisms and dress for as long as humans have been able to exhibit such things if only to steal it from one another. Japan absconded with large parts of Chinese culture, who in turn decided that the words of an Indian mystic would make a pretty good religion, those same Indians that chafed then adopted the works of an conqueror from the Asian steppes who was a convert to a religion founded in Arabia who left behind coffee beans for Viennese to drink, perhaps to be served with a beverage found from Central America for the kids.
I can see taking an element and using it as a synecdoche to represent the whole of a culture as being wrong: to be Chinese is more than just dim sum, French culture is more than putting on a beret. That would be disrespectful because it distills a culture or people into a cliche. But I find the premise expressed here that adopting some feature of another culture as "stealing wealth" utterly meritless, because it's this exchange, like cells exchanging bits of DNA, that allows others to appreciate the fact there are other things beyond the familiar which is worth knowing and thus emulating.
A powerful impetus towards empathy is to be able to absorb something and make it part of your own identity. I'm sure that's something we all need.
I can see taking an element and using it as a synecdoche to represent the whole of a culture as being wrong: to be Chinese is more than just dim sum, French culture is more than putting on a beret. That would be disrespectful because it distills a culture or people into a cliche. But I find the premise expressed here that adopting some feature of another culture as "stealing wealth" utterly meritless, because it's this exchange, like cells exchanging bits of DNA, that allows others to appreciate the fact there are other things beyond the familiar which is worth knowing and thus emulating.
A powerful impetus towards empathy is to be able to absorb something and make it part of your own identity. I'm sure that's something we all need.
5
What is "American culture" anyway? Is it what we see on TV? Mayberry RFD or Weeds? All in the Family or Six Feet Under? Which one is not authentic? They're quite different but you gotta choose one if there is such a thing as a "real" America.
Beyond that, what is "morally wrong" about Black artists being among Elvis' musical influences? After all, B.B King is clearly American. What is "morally wrong" about Gauguin's adoption of Polynesian motifs in his paintings, and how was it " sourced from" racism? Do you think the U.S. Capitol is not authentically American because it's neoclassical architecture? Was this a "theft" from the long-dead citizens of ancient Greece and Rome? Did America "steal" English from England? And should we give it back?
Beyond that, what is "morally wrong" about Black artists being among Elvis' musical influences? After all, B.B King is clearly American. What is "morally wrong" about Gauguin's adoption of Polynesian motifs in his paintings, and how was it " sourced from" racism? Do you think the U.S. Capitol is not authentically American because it's neoclassical architecture? Was this a "theft" from the long-dead citizens of ancient Greece and Rome? Did America "steal" English from England? And should we give it back?
7
Stop thinking of just American culture and think of all the ways global cultures borrow and steal from each other. America is not the only agent.
4
I do acknowledge that race and culture are "hot" parts of our society. But that line is where all the energy resides. And I love walking that line.