2nd Solution: VW exchanges at no charge the diesel for a gas model and in addition reimburses $6k-$7k to the owner.
For me, as a consumer and not deeply knowledgeable about cars, if a company wrote code to evade an emissions test, I'd wonder what other cheat code was written into the system and how it might affect me, and I'd worry.
If one cheats on one thing, one could very well cheat on another.
If one cheats on one thing, one could very well cheat on another.
2
This was a business decision and an "acceptable risk" of $~7 billion (only half year of profit). VW will still make profit of $~7 billion instead of $~14 billion.
As long as there is no "criminal" penalties and no one is going to jail for this kind of behavior, the CEO's and the C-suite management will continue to take and encourage this type of "acceptable risk".
It is only monitory risk after all, and in business you take risk for gain. You only get penalized financially, only and only if you get caught, or else "windfall" bonus for the C-suite residents. Who would not take such a risk ?
Law need to be changed, and the C-suite management should be hold accountable and should go to jail.
As long as there is no "criminal" penalties and no one is going to jail for this kind of behavior, the CEO's and the C-suite management will continue to take and encourage this type of "acceptable risk".
It is only monitory risk after all, and in business you take risk for gain. You only get penalized financially, only and only if you get caught, or else "windfall" bonus for the C-suite residents. Who would not take such a risk ?
Law need to be changed, and the C-suite management should be hold accountable and should go to jail.
1
"The United States, as the second-largest car market after China"
that by itself is scary. Say goodbye to air quality forever.
that by itself is scary. Say goodbye to air quality forever.
1
One solution: Reimburse the cost difference($6-$7k) between the gas model and diesel, and bring the vehicle in compliance.
Corporations are like people...psychopaths!
2
A Haiku From the Volkswagen Group
"We're very sorry;
Not that we harmed customers ...
But that we were caught."
"We're very sorry;
Not that we harmed customers ...
But that we were caught."
4
OK. So the CEO has resigned, without admitting wrongdoing. And the squib announcing this also reports that VW has hundreds of thousands of employees and that its suppliers have thousands more. As I read this, we are somehow supposed to feel sympathy for the CEO and be concerned about the impact on employment that correcting this crime will have.
Granted, he didn't kill anyone. But he and his employees committed a massive fraud against its customers and against the anti-pollution laws of the US and elsewhere. The former CEO may be leaving, but you can be pretty sure that his severance package will be in 7 or 8 figures, and that he's going to retire to his villa somewhere.
Repeat after me. There is no justice.
Granted, he didn't kill anyone. But he and his employees committed a massive fraud against its customers and against the anti-pollution laws of the US and elsewhere. The former CEO may be leaving, but you can be pretty sure that his severance package will be in 7 or 8 figures, and that he's going to retire to his villa somewhere.
Repeat after me. There is no justice.
3
Linda P. wrote, regarding this crime: "Imagine if all that energy and brain power was thrown at the emissions rather than the criminal act of subverting the law. " It is the same old story of crime, whether high dollar, intellectually sophisticated crime like this, or run of the mill stealing, typically, the criminal expends far more effort than he or she would have done for a legitimate end of equal or greater value.
Of great interest: what will be the response of owners whose cars are recalled? The fact is, the reason VW cheated is because they CAN'T fix the cars' emissions problem except by compromising the cars' performance. Can VW owners be coerced into having their vehicles emissions brought into compliance - say by states refusing to register the affected vehicles - at the cost of "sportiness"?
After the shock of being "swindled" wears off, I bet most drivers will say "Well, all in all, I really LIKE this car! Emissions? I don't smell a thing! Maybe just refund me five grand, and I'll be very happy. And by the way, good luck with your NEXT scam!"
Should regulators attempt to enforce a "fix", the outcry they'll provoke will make the current brouhaha seem mild in comparison.
After the shock of being "swindled" wears off, I bet most drivers will say "Well, all in all, I really LIKE this car! Emissions? I don't smell a thing! Maybe just refund me five grand, and I'll be very happy. And by the way, good luck with your NEXT scam!"
Should regulators attempt to enforce a "fix", the outcry they'll provoke will make the current brouhaha seem mild in comparison.
1
I agree. In this case, people will view getting their VW "fixed" much as they would view getting their dog "fixed". Even the slightest coercion will be seen as a profound civil rights violation.
I'm amazed the CEO and a number of other directly involved employees haven't been sacked yet and put on notice they could face criminal charges. Nothing short of this will be a deterrent from future transgressions of this ilk.
1
It is hard to imagine that a hands-on car buff CEO like Dr. Winterkorn didn't have a clue that something was amiss in Wolfsburg.
2
Thanks to Ronald Reagan's money masters for enthroning him as President of the United States to gut anti-trust laws and regulatory agencies. Volkswagen didn't behave this way. The PEOPLE at Volkswagen and at financial "markets" did this to rake in the profits. Volkswagen is not a person - it's a combination of people that, in this case, have no social conscience. Money is not the root of all evil - it's the way PEOPLE use money that corrupts it. Worldwide corruption is rampant and we are destroying our lives, and planet, with it. WE MUST REGULATE GREED!
Everyone just concentrates on Nitrogen Oxides which admittedly are real bad to human health but most people forget that there is even worse in those so called "clean diesel" exhaust gases. Pressure and temperature in those high performance engines produce the vilest dust the earth has ever seen. And we breathe it changing us into ... http://www.lng.guru/in-the-crosshairs-how-diesel-makes-us-mutants/
1
No point in emailing Mr. Winterkorn. Here is the email response I received:
Reference is made to your e-mail.
We kindly request your understanding that we cannot provide you with the e-mail address of our CEO, Professor Dr Winterkorn. You
may contact our Customer Care Department via the below mentioned e-mail address.
If you have an issue with your Volkswagen, please refer either to your local Volkswagen dealer or our official representative in
your country. Their address can be obtained via
www.volkswagen.com.
Thank you for your understanding.
Yours sincerely,
i. V. Holger Andres i. V. Nadja Schneider
Volkswagen AG
38436 Wolfsburg
Tel +49 (0) 1806 890000**
Fax +49 (0) 1805 329865*
Mail to [email protected]
Homepage http://www.volkswagen.com
** 0,20 €/Verbindung aus dem dt. Festnetz, max. 0,60 €/Verbindung aus dem Mobilfunknetz
* 0,14 €/Min. aus dem dt. Festnetz, max. 0,42 €/Min. aus dem Mobilfunknetz
VOLKSWAGEN AG
Sitz/Domicile: Wolfsburg
Registergericht/Court of Registry: Amtsgericht Braunschweig
HRB Nr./. Commercial Register No.: 100484
Vorstand/Board of Management: Martin Winterkorn (Vorsitzender/Chairman), Her-bert Diess, Francisco J. Garcia Sanz, Jochem
Heizmann, Christian Klingler, Mat-thias Mueller, Horst Neumann, Hans Dieter Poetsch, Andreas Renschler, Rupert Stadler
Wichtiger Hinweis: Die vorgenannten Angaben werden jeder E-Mail automatisch hinzugefuegt und lassen keine Rueckschluesse auf den
Rechtscharakter der E-Mail zu.
Reference is made to your e-mail.
We kindly request your understanding that we cannot provide you with the e-mail address of our CEO, Professor Dr Winterkorn. You
may contact our Customer Care Department via the below mentioned e-mail address.
If you have an issue with your Volkswagen, please refer either to your local Volkswagen dealer or our official representative in
your country. Their address can be obtained via
www.volkswagen.com.
Thank you for your understanding.
Yours sincerely,
i. V. Holger Andres i. V. Nadja Schneider
Volkswagen AG
38436 Wolfsburg
Tel +49 (0) 1806 890000**
Fax +49 (0) 1805 329865*
Mail to [email protected]
Homepage http://www.volkswagen.com
** 0,20 €/Verbindung aus dem dt. Festnetz, max. 0,60 €/Verbindung aus dem Mobilfunknetz
* 0,14 €/Min. aus dem dt. Festnetz, max. 0,42 €/Min. aus dem Mobilfunknetz
VOLKSWAGEN AG
Sitz/Domicile: Wolfsburg
Registergericht/Court of Registry: Amtsgericht Braunschweig
HRB Nr./. Commercial Register No.: 100484
Vorstand/Board of Management: Martin Winterkorn (Vorsitzender/Chairman), Her-bert Diess, Francisco J. Garcia Sanz, Jochem
Heizmann, Christian Klingler, Mat-thias Mueller, Horst Neumann, Hans Dieter Poetsch, Andreas Renschler, Rupert Stadler
Wichtiger Hinweis: Die vorgenannten Angaben werden jeder E-Mail automatisch hinzugefuegt und lassen keine Rueckschluesse auf den
Rechtscharakter der E-Mail zu.
I suppose we are not going to get an explanation of the purpose of the recall of April 2015 to reprogram engine control computers of Jettas any time soon.
Wow. Your post underscores the absolute lack of culpability on the part of this corporation. As I searched the web I could find no board contact emails available, not only in Germany but in other countries as well including the US. They don't want to be contacted by the people who buy their cars - the little people...which would be the 99%.
1
What does our current crop of presidential candidates think about this deception? Republicans, more than Democrats, are in a quandary: Do they believe that VW did the right thing because regulations are so strict? Or, are they outraged that a foreign company deceived us and circumvented regulations intended to protect our most vulnerable and the planet as well? I'd like to hear from them on this topic.
6
This revelation could make a person wonder about the integrity of the proprietary software used in electronic voting machines.
4
Fines, even huge ones, mean nothing to a large corporation. It's time to end the corporate games and start putting the people who are responsible for perpetrating fraud in jail. The punishment should should include disgorging their ill gotten gains. Maybe then something will change.
3
Mike1234 17 minutes ago
The USA is an important market to be in because of its size, but there are hidden costs in doing business there if you mess up. Hence BP, VW, Toyota, Hyundai etc. were all hammered. However, if you are a US company for the sake of argument called General Motors, you can go bankrupt and have all of your debts shifted to a company called Bad GM, while you continue to operate as Good GM without paying your investors a penny. You can even kill hundreds of you customers and be put on probation! Airbus should be very wary about their new factory in Alabama.
1
I am a little confused by all the commenters who absolutely want to bankrupt and disembowel VW.
What good will that do for all the VW workers, suppliers, shippers, dealers, dealers' employees, and so forth down all the lines -- and, in the end, VW owners themselves, who are left owning seriously depreciated cars across all the product lines (not just TDIs), without dealer networks and parts for repair, down all the years.
Yeah, punishment; yeah, make them make good to the extent possible; yeah, "fairness" -- but why capital-punish the company? Bad idea --
What good will that do for all the VW workers, suppliers, shippers, dealers, dealers' employees, and so forth down all the lines -- and, in the end, VW owners themselves, who are left owning seriously depreciated cars across all the product lines (not just TDIs), without dealer networks and parts for repair, down all the years.
Yeah, punishment; yeah, make them make good to the extent possible; yeah, "fairness" -- but why capital-punish the company? Bad idea --
2
Fines are not enough. Executives must start going to jail to send a message. Let's see if the DOJ makes good on its threats. The banksters should be next.
3
While it was not secret that VW has used software solutions to distinguish between real life situations and test cycles in it's engine management software, there is another aspect of this too.
What if this was a US company and what if this was happening in a situation in which we already have TPP and TTIP in place?
In which case the company would get a simple way out of being deemed a criminal, sue the country for damaging it's earnings expectations.
While it can be understood that VW, like other producers, has only one expectation and that is to make money from it's products, it is also a valid assumption that local laws are seen as an obstacle to these expectations.
So what would be the reaction to such laws in case this would have been a US company?
Sue the foreign government for lowering the companies profit by introducing tougher emission standards.
Had those TPP or TTIP agreements already been in place, any US company would simply been going to court in order to sue because of these two items:
1.) the producer says that his product is good enough for the market of this country and only those bad laws hinder the company to make a decent profit, so get rid of hose laws.
2.) the consumer wanted to have those sporty cars and the local law simply prohibits them to have them.
This is what happens in other places like the stop-and-go issue that is currently
So while this is a case of fraud by VW, let us also use this case to re evaluate the validity of TPP and TTIP.
What if this was a US company and what if this was happening in a situation in which we already have TPP and TTIP in place?
In which case the company would get a simple way out of being deemed a criminal, sue the country for damaging it's earnings expectations.
While it can be understood that VW, like other producers, has only one expectation and that is to make money from it's products, it is also a valid assumption that local laws are seen as an obstacle to these expectations.
So what would be the reaction to such laws in case this would have been a US company?
Sue the foreign government for lowering the companies profit by introducing tougher emission standards.
Had those TPP or TTIP agreements already been in place, any US company would simply been going to court in order to sue because of these two items:
1.) the producer says that his product is good enough for the market of this country and only those bad laws hinder the company to make a decent profit, so get rid of hose laws.
2.) the consumer wanted to have those sporty cars and the local law simply prohibits them to have them.
This is what happens in other places like the stop-and-go issue that is currently
So while this is a case of fraud by VW, let us also use this case to re evaluate the validity of TPP and TTIP.
3
11 million have been taken for a ride.
1
The Guardian reported last week that 9 off 10 Diesels fail to pass EU emissions standards. Something tells me that this will not stop at VW and may well end the Diesel Car market worldwide.
http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2015/sep/14/nine-out-of-10-new-di...
Any carmaker selling a Diesel had better get ready for lawsuits, recalls and PR damage.
http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2015/sep/14/nine-out-of-10-new-di...
Any carmaker selling a Diesel had better get ready for lawsuits, recalls and PR damage.
1
What a ridiculous non-story. The lies told every day by Obama about ObamaCare, ISIS, the economy, etc, etc, far outweigh this phony "scandal"
1
I'm sorry you're so ill-informed.
1
Just to remind. Saying stuff like this doesn't make it so. Turn off Fox News.
Interesting perspective, though, that you believe that a story about a fraud in the amount of more than $7 billion is not a big story?
Interesting perspective, though, that you believe that a story about a fraud in the amount of more than $7 billion is not a big story?
2
It's obvious that the threat of jail time might prevent some business sociopaths from hurting society.
Apparently fines and bad publicity don't seem to do the trick.
Apparently fines and bad publicity don't seem to do the trick.
3
Unlike the GM case over the ignition systems, which can be argued as negligence, this is a willful and intentional effort to violate US law through deceptive and fraudulent means.
This is a test of the US Department of Justice.
If we are to be a nation of laws, then the CEO and other appropriate managers and executives of VW should be extradited to the US, charged, tried and if found guilty and convicted, sent to prison.
Either we are just society or we are a society where those with money, power and privilege are subject to a different set of standards than other citizens. Either we are a plutocracy or we are a democracy. This case will tell us.
This is a test of the US Department of Justice.
If we are to be a nation of laws, then the CEO and other appropriate managers and executives of VW should be extradited to the US, charged, tried and if found guilty and convicted, sent to prison.
Either we are just society or we are a society where those with money, power and privilege are subject to a different set of standards than other citizens. Either we are a plutocracy or we are a democracy. This case will tell us.
2
Models having their diesel engine modified to be within emission standards can be renamed with a hyphen .... " - Patriot"
VW Jetta - Patriot
Audi - Patriot
etc-etc-etc....
This in recognition of another world known corporate cheater that uses the same base word "Patriot" in their logo.
Can't wait to take advantage of VW's sweet-sweet deals on new cars that they will surely roll out in order to win back customers.
America loves its cheaters when they are delivering a good product.
VW Jetta - Patriot
Audi - Patriot
etc-etc-etc....
This in recognition of another world known corporate cheater that uses the same base word "Patriot" in their logo.
Can't wait to take advantage of VW's sweet-sweet deals on new cars that they will surely roll out in order to win back customers.
America loves its cheaters when they are delivering a good product.
Volkwagen used Jew-slaves to build cars during WWII, and they lied in order to make "profit" now. They should disappear - I don't care whether they make Porsches and Audis or not. They are liar capitalist earth-breaking mothers. It's over for them, but naturally none of the executives will go to jail. They're too big to fail!
1
The really guilty slip the noose yet again.
Am I alone in remembering our scientists, global warmists and politicians en masse all telling us that petrol was evil and that diesel was cleaner, better, cheaper?
One had only to stand behind a bus to know they were lying.
But they got away with it, which is why we have so many diesel cars.
Am I alone in remembering our scientists, global warmists and politicians en masse all telling us that petrol was evil and that diesel was cleaner, better, cheaper?
One had only to stand behind a bus to know they were lying.
But they got away with it, which is why we have so many diesel cars.
2
the top management of VW is surprisingly still in charge, including the CEO of VW of America, who held a strange speech after that. ( I am sorry, we screwed up) like he is talking a to high school football team. That is most certainly not a proper respond about a case of this magnitude.
I think, the longer those guys stay in power the more we have to expect cover ups, everybody there is afraid to speak up and trying to hold on to their jobs.
we have to see when they start a legitimate investigation in Europe by the EU and individual governments. I am also wondering what will happen to the diesel cars which has been sold in the US which don t meet EPA regulation. Under EPA rules the engines has to be removed or the whole car has to be exported for those which were imported. Their resale value will drop accordingly or worse they become unsalable.
I think, the longer those guys stay in power the more we have to expect cover ups, everybody there is afraid to speak up and trying to hold on to their jobs.
we have to see when they start a legitimate investigation in Europe by the EU and individual governments. I am also wondering what will happen to the diesel cars which has been sold in the US which don t meet EPA regulation. Under EPA rules the engines has to be removed or the whole car has to be exported for those which were imported. Their resale value will drop accordingly or worse they become unsalable.
A large wealthy car company, run by wealthy CEO types who make rediculous salaries, stoops to avert a regulation they found inconvenient....this is just another version of automobile companies everywhere, with profit driving their products rather than safety or responsibility. Here's the the regulators that did their job well and did not use simulators which VW had already planned to subvert. Nice bit of antisocial behavior, that, on VW's part; 'Hmm lets see, how can we not get caught...' Way to demonstrate your social conscience, VW, or lack thereof. Another sterling example of why industry, particularly the automobile industry, should never, ever, be allowed to police itself. Caveat Emptor, for all makes, all models.
1
Thats why these guys get paid the big bucks. Some enron with your meal sir?
I think Suzuki Motors in Japan should look into the date (2009) that the engines supposedly went on sale worldwide, since their main complaint with the 20% ownership Volkswagen purchased around the same time was supposed to allow Suzuki to share Volkswagen engine technology. It would be easy to see this issue playing a major role in Volkswagen not allowing Suzuki to look at the advanced diesel engine technology as Suzuki claimed. Imagine what would have happened when Suzuki vehicles could not attain the EPA approval while Volkswagen vehicles with the same engine passed the EPA test, Suzuki could have a fraud case now against VW?
3
As a former Volkswagen owner, I think that although Volkswagen installed the electronically activated cheating device, it was betting that, like all other VW electronics, it wouldn't really work as intended..
4
The consumer got a more efficient better performing car than the emission test setting. The consumer did not get hosed at all.
2
This is a silly comment. Buyers of these cars paid a premium for what VW represented was cleaner technology.
1
The emissions themselves are certainly a big deal, but the outright fraud is breathtaking. Nothing subtle about it. No mistakes here. Just a decision to defraud consumers and governments. So what is the US going to do about it? LOL. A few hundred million in fines?
5
They are the ones that got caught, I am sure others are doing similar things. Sort of the like the doping in bicycling, everyone does it, just don't get caught.
7
When I first read about the TDI I was impressed. There didn't seem to be enough engine mass there to achieve the kind of power ratings, mileage and range that they touted. I wanted one. I talked with my wife about getting one and it was in the running to be our next car. Her car really, I still prefer Ford, Chevy, GMC and I prefer V8 gas guzzlers. Now this. The question is how much all of the other manufacturers are involved with this kind of fraud. Not whether, but how much. I have no doubt the other manufacturers reverse engineered this technology and implemented parts of it in their automobiles. You know, like that mileage disclaimer hints at: "actual mileage may vary."
3
The interesting thing, but not a huge market is for owners of these TDI automobiles to bypass the emissions systems after the warranties expire. EGR bypass systems, ECU firmware binaries, boost fooling devices, etc. I have been following it for many years and it exists in the US and Europe. Either way, I agree that VW should not be participating in this mess. Aside from that, these are great cars with good fuel economy, performance and longevity. It should be easy to pick up one at a lower price now.
3
All I can say is that if these cars pollute so awfully much why didn't any of these owners who are now simply aghast at this travesty notice all that belching black smoke coming out of their cars every time they drove? Or... are we making a scandal out of something that really is not that big of a deal?
I lived in a large South American city for a while 10 or 12 years ago where they had no pollution regulations and gas prices were sky high consequently half the cars there at that time had been converted to diesel and you could not only smell it you could see it hanging in the air especially during rush hour. Sometimes we Americans just don't know how good we have it. Does anyone here really think that all of the rest of the car companies are innocent of these kind of shenanigans? (especially since they are being squeezed with these unrealistic pollution regulations)... so stop your whining please and drive your good running Volkswagen.
I lived in a large South American city for a while 10 or 12 years ago where they had no pollution regulations and gas prices were sky high consequently half the cars there at that time had been converted to diesel and you could not only smell it you could see it hanging in the air especially during rush hour. Sometimes we Americans just don't know how good we have it. Does anyone here really think that all of the rest of the car companies are innocent of these kind of shenanigans? (especially since they are being squeezed with these unrealistic pollution regulations)... so stop your whining please and drive your good running Volkswagen.
2
Nitric Oxides (NOx) are invisible highly reactive gasses that form a major component of smog, as well as being generally toxic, this has nothing to do with carbon particulate emissions aka soot.
2
This defines a phony scandal
I truly believe that 100 years from now, humanity will look back on these days and either say: "that was the moment mankind woke up and decided to take care of our planet" or, "that was the moment cynicism won and mankind gave up on our planet." VW as a business entity must cease to exist, or the latter will be our legacy.
1
A well orchestrated drama by the us car-makers. Nobody cares about the fact that thousands of trucks blow NOx million fold while spooling their miles on us highways with engine technology dating back to the 50's, exempt from regulations since decades. Every expert in the industry knows that diesel engines will cover the next 10 years before electric cars become a viable solution. A technology neither GM nor Ford nor Chrysler have. This is why the NOx limits are significantly lower than f.i. in Europe. Measuring with double standards to keep a technology and competition out. And now the 'outrage' of the heretic owners. The changes in pollution or performance are of academic nature at best. But it makes a good opportunity to scream for a free car.
11
I don't imagine anyone with one of these cars will take them in for the recall fix until or unless they have to. How will that be dealt with?
2
When you can't renew your State Registration until, and unless it passes the emissions test for real, then you will have to reduce the emissions to comply, which should make driving it something less than you have grown accustomed to. YUGO's will pass you like a Ferrari. Enjoy !
2
registration renewal will be conditioned on the car being fixed
1
I just want to know how they're going to fix it so that the car passes inspection in NYS. Obviously it will continue to pass, but now people know that it's a false positive.
It doesn't sound to me like this is going to be a simple computer software fix. Sounds like it is hardware as well as software. I don't want the performance of my 2009 Jetta Sportwagen @40+MPG to suffer because of this either. Fix it so performance doesn't suffer and give me 10 - 15k and we'll call it a day. You can't fix it without affecting performance - give me paidcostofcar+costofgas(come up with a price based on $3.75/gallon and how many miles on odometer) [probably comes out to somewhere around $35 - $45k].
It doesn't sound to me like this is going to be a simple computer software fix. Sounds like it is hardware as well as software. I don't want the performance of my 2009 Jetta Sportwagen @40+MPG to suffer because of this either. Fix it so performance doesn't suffer and give me 10 - 15k and we'll call it a day. You can't fix it without affecting performance - give me paidcostofcar+costofgas(come up with a price based on $3.75/gallon and how many miles on odometer) [probably comes out to somewhere around $35 - $45k].
It will pass inspection without a software reflash.
When it gets reflashed it will still pass inspection and this time it will be a legally meaningful pass.
Whether you want to or not, the performance will suffer, either somewhat, or a whole lot based on several factors. To make it compliant and maintain the performance you got used to while running dirty will most likely require a new engine probably bigger that is able to produce all the insane torque you think you need (and that VW promised you). And here is the rub. Most people don't need that much torque or horsepower. It is useful if you want to drive dangerously.
Should you get some compensation from VW for the lower performing but emissions compliant engine? Yes. (And whether that comes from a VW offer or via a class action is moot)
Whatever the outcome, I am pretty sure you won't get your purchase price back, or the cost of gas, service, etc. You have obviously used the car all this time. You can't turn back the clock.
My guess is that if the other options don't work out, or are not atteactive to the current owners (trade-in, buy-back, other program), the EPA will expect VW to find a way to compel all the owners (some cash reward) to bring their car back for a reflash. And there will be a window of time to do that.
When it gets reflashed it will still pass inspection and this time it will be a legally meaningful pass.
Whether you want to or not, the performance will suffer, either somewhat, or a whole lot based on several factors. To make it compliant and maintain the performance you got used to while running dirty will most likely require a new engine probably bigger that is able to produce all the insane torque you think you need (and that VW promised you). And here is the rub. Most people don't need that much torque or horsepower. It is useful if you want to drive dangerously.
Should you get some compensation from VW for the lower performing but emissions compliant engine? Yes. (And whether that comes from a VW offer or via a class action is moot)
Whatever the outcome, I am pretty sure you won't get your purchase price back, or the cost of gas, service, etc. You have obviously used the car all this time. You can't turn back the clock.
My guess is that if the other options don't work out, or are not atteactive to the current owners (trade-in, buy-back, other program), the EPA will expect VW to find a way to compel all the owners (some cash reward) to bring their car back for a reflash. And there will be a window of time to do that.
3
The only thing that needs fixing is onerous, burdensome government regulations
During the last couple days my wife and I were in communication with our local VW dealer to lease an E-Golf. Today we got a call from their sales deptartment informing us that they won't accept our Sportwagen TDI as a trade to offset the $2500 down payment. We owe $11k on the car. Let that sink in.
7
And that was said by the VW dealer! Ouchy!
3
Try again in a few days or week or a week or so. I would think, soon enough, VW will be making every deal they can to dispense with used-TDI claimholders.
4
VW should reimburse every owner the full retail value of the new car, and pay an additional fine compensating the public for the excess environmental damage over the length of time of each car's life to date.
Having repurchased all of those cars, they should be obliged to fix them.
Then, the corporation should compensate individual owners for the deceit, and for the trouble of replacing their vehicles, no doubt with other brands.
They should compensate their employees at all levels who will leave the company either by choice or through inevitable layoffs.
Then, if they survive, they can go on making cars. If not, good riddance.
Having repurchased all of those cars, they should be obliged to fix them.
Then, the corporation should compensate individual owners for the deceit, and for the trouble of replacing their vehicles, no doubt with other brands.
They should compensate their employees at all levels who will leave the company either by choice or through inevitable layoffs.
Then, if they survive, they can go on making cars. If not, good riddance.
1
Until this news broke, I had little reason to regret buying a Jetta TDI in 2009, when VW triumphantly resumed selling diesels here. Although I worried about the dreaded Fuel Pump Implosion, I felt good about choosing a relatively green car for my driving pleasure. The car's still going strong, but thanks to VW's brazen deception, much of my satisfaction is gone.
One question: if, as I understand, Passat TDI's make use of the urea ("AdBlue") method of neutering Nox emissions, a la Mercedes and BMW diesels, why were they equipped with the same test-beating software installed in those that don't, like my Jetta?
One question: if, as I understand, Passat TDI's make use of the urea ("AdBlue") method of neutering Nox emissions, a la Mercedes and BMW diesels, why were they equipped with the same test-beating software installed in those that don't, like my Jetta?
3
Such irony. A nation that loves to drive, and has been for decades, huge polluting low mileage SUVs and trucks, whose domestic auto industry has not been shall we say, the epitome of honesty, is suddenly upset about VW. Yup, its a crime to deceive our noble EPA. More irony. A 20013 Jetta TDI that I loved and drove until was totaled by a large gas powered SUV in January did not have the dodgy software, but my new 2014 Jetta TDI does. And so my 2003 Jetta may have had a higher street value than the 2014 model were it still around and not crushed and recycled. I await developments!
5
I am VW owner and this just cracks me up! Big deal!
It will get addressed, it is just software, so stop choking on your vegan burgers and stop spewing righteous bile.
And kudos to VW for impressive technology!
It will get addressed, it is just software, so stop choking on your vegan burgers and stop spewing righteous bile.
And kudos to VW for impressive technology!
7
So then you enjoy being lied to, and buying a product that will never, ever run the way they told you it would ? O-K Then, I have some Brooklyn Bridge stock you'd really Love to own, trust me !
5
You've missed the point entirely. The software controls the engine. To comply with the emission regs, the car will run have to run very, very differently.
5
Typical VW owner. Most selfish aggressive drivers on the road. Of course you don't care about the long term impact in the environment. You don't care about the immediate safety of yourself much less others, on the road!
CEO - SAYS - "the mistakes of a few people" The mistake was getting caught. The rest is a conspiracy to defraud and to defraud.
4
As a software engineer it would be interesting to see how they did it. Whoever wrote or verified the code had to know they were breaking the law. What incentive did they have to put that code into cars?
Most likely lots of money was involved but maybe it was blackmail.
Most likely lots of money was involved but maybe it was blackmail.
3
As a software engineer I can assure you it is extremely highly unlikely that any of what you say is true. Not for 11 million vehicles.
This is not software like you'd find in an app store or some social media platform. It is dissected and put under serious scrutiny by scores of senior technical leads, and various layers of management. Things don't just slip out like that on software that controls a vehicle carrying (and beig surrounded by) humans at 80 mph.
This is not software like you'd find in an app store or some social media platform. It is dissected and put under serious scrutiny by scores of senior technical leads, and various layers of management. Things don't just slip out like that on software that controls a vehicle carrying (and beig surrounded by) humans at 80 mph.
3
An NPR program today said that mileage and air quality certification in Europe are done in the companies' plants and by inspectors that the companies pay. Odds are, VW won't be the only company caught up in this mess.
2
Just like our banks hire the auditors. And the government cedes investigations to the crooks' law firms.
2
What's worse, this or the Takata airbag scandal?
Both cases involve deliberate conduct except that this hasn't killed anybody.
Both cases involve deliberate conduct except that this hasn't killed anybody.
1
Worse than Takata. By a long shot. VW had malicious intent, not just dodgy engineering to save a few pennies.
1
I would buy one of these cars in heartbeat. Economical and having more torque than many pickups, they are fun to drive and have a reputation for outlasting some of the competition. I am in a way happy this happened as now I can buy a used one at a premium.
5
You are thinking these heaps will run like you want and not pollute. You will discover that the emissions fix will rob them of all that power and fun. Go buy one, you'll see.
3
ummm, buying things "at a premium" is a bad thing for the buyer
3
The real crime here is the an out of control government can impose these incredibly complicated rules that cannot be obeyed and cannot be defied.
3
Not all regulations are over done. These are important ones.
4
the other manufacturers were able to "obey these incredibly complicated rules" without committing fraud
4
If they're so important, why doesn't Obama's fleet of limousines have to follow them?
Obviously VW couldn't meet the emission standards except at considerable expense without the software. The US should make them bring all affected cars up to spec, and if not not possible, require VW to buy them back.
3
What a stupid, sad tale.
Nobody responsible for this decision will go to jail? And yet investors, dealers, individual owners-- what's to happen with their jobs when we collectively walk away from the brand, or the resale value of these cars falls to nothing? The only punishment that makes sense is for those who made the decisions and trashed the reputation of their company -- get jail time.
Nobody responsible for this decision will go to jail? And yet investors, dealers, individual owners-- what's to happen with their jobs when we collectively walk away from the brand, or the resale value of these cars falls to nothing? The only punishment that makes sense is for those who made the decisions and trashed the reputation of their company -- get jail time.
2
Have they figured out which clown came up with this idea?
3
The Wizard of Oz did it.
1
He was promoted and retired on a Platinum Parachute long ago. They treated him like a genius.
1
Anyone who can figure out how to make a car run well while meeting onerous emissions standards deserves a commendation. My next car will be a Volkswagen.
5
Uh what? VW couldn't meet the standards, that's why they cheated...
1
Some will never get it. Kudos to VW.
They have. It's called a Tesla. Best rated car ever by Consumer Reports. No emissions and mpg over 100. Torque, acceleration and speed that blow most gas powered sports cars out of the water and will blow your mind (I test drove one a couple weeks ago). Range of 250 miles is the same as what you'd get from a comparable gas engine enforce refueling.
How long before the states update their emissions testing procedures, making these vehicles unusable?
They hope to elect more Republicans and stamp out government regulators and emissions controls for good. Then they will be Clean Diesel's, just like Clean Coal.
1
Someone better serve some for this blatant illegal act. Knowingly trying to deceive officials and purposely creating software to do just that. Did all those VW employees who worked on this think they could get away with it? Besides some jail time how about a huge fine - in the billions .
3
How did VW ever, ever, ever think they were going to get away with this? It seems incredible that they'd try --
4
“We need to get to the bottom of this,” Lucia Caudet, a spokeswoman for the European Commission, said in a statement. “For the sake of our consumers and the environment, we need certainty that industry scrupulously respects emissions limits.” That's European Code for "Let's fudge it - we can't upset the Germans !"
As others have written, conduct a risk-benefit analysis and determine the benefit is worse than the punishment if they get caught. They will probably be right.
It is highly unlikely that fraud on such a massive scale, affecting 11 MILLION vehicles, was the work of "only a few" as Volkswagen's CEO claims. If it is true, these individuals need to be identified and prosecuted!
If not, there needs to be a massive shakeup in VW's corporate culture--with criminal charges, not just a slap on the wrist. As the recent trial of those responsible for continuing to market peanuts known to contain salmonella indicates, white collar crime causes a massive amount of human suffering, and needs to be punished accordingly. Just because such criminals wear suits and ties is no reason for them to escape responsibility for their crimes.
As Woodie Guthrie said, "It's easier to rob a man with a pen than a gun." Enough!
If not, there needs to be a massive shakeup in VW's corporate culture--with criminal charges, not just a slap on the wrist. As the recent trial of those responsible for continuing to market peanuts known to contain salmonella indicates, white collar crime causes a massive amount of human suffering, and needs to be punished accordingly. Just because such criminals wear suits and ties is no reason for them to escape responsibility for their crimes.
As Woodie Guthrie said, "It's easier to rob a man with a pen than a gun." Enough!
6
The government imposes these draconian, endless Byzantine maze of regulations and then wonders why people try to work around them? The government practically demanded VW do this
4
Oh please. It is a worldwide deceit. 11 million cars of which 500,000 are here. There are other countries on the planet. I'm surprised you didn't blame Obama.
2
There is nothing draconian or particularly complicated about the US emissions rules. They are there to protect lives (as an ER doc I can testify to the link between emissions and life threatening health complications). Every other car manufacturer seems to be able to meet them without cheating.
2
if corporations are people too in this country, shouldn't the VW execs be arrested for fraud.
7
As a VW mechanic for the last 35 years I have only owned 3. A 1955 Type 2, a 1961 type 1 and a 1980 Rabbit. They were fun to drive but required constant maintenance. I have never recommended that anyone buy one. If you must have one, lease it.
I've noticed VW weaselyness over the years. If a part failed often there would be no recall. The price would drop to $3 (temperature sensors). Normal service procedure were often complicated (A4, A6, Passat timing belts) and expensive.
I am disappointed by the latest news but not surprised.
I've noticed VW weaselyness over the years. If a part failed often there would be no recall. The price would drop to $3 (temperature sensors). Normal service procedure were often complicated (A4, A6, Passat timing belts) and expensive.
I am disappointed by the latest news but not surprised.
15
German efficiency at work?! A current good example that reflects their reach is to come to southern Brooklyn and observe the type of folks who now are behind the wheel of the Porsche's, high end VW's, Mercedes, BMWs, and Audis! Certainly the upper crust?! You can't make this stiff up! As for me thank you, but I will continue to drive my Chevy to the levee....
5
Big deal, pollution standards have been over the top for years and almost ruined the US car makers during the 70's and 80's. US cars had to struggle to go up a slight incline back then. I would rather have a car with some power if it pollutes a little more than a clean running anemic car.
4
You might be willing and able to handle the excessive emissions, but for millions of patients with asthma, emphysema or other respiratory conditions, the added emissions can mean hospitalization or death. I hope you are a little less self centered than your comment suggests
3
Bobyoung -- that is exactly the mentality that is destroying the planet. It's not only about "you."
1
Alas, the age of mechanical cars is drawing to a close. Electric propulsion systems will be as generic as horses, and carmakers will become coachbuilders again.
3
You know how in the summertime during periods of extreme electricity usage there are brownouts and we're told to turn down our air conditioner's, and not do laundry or wash dishes in the daytime?
So if we're all driving electric cars where will the electricity come from?
So if we're all driving electric cars where will the electricity come from?
1
Mike - I don't know, maybe the energy could come from the sun? Or the wind? Or maybe people plug in their electric cars at night?
Aside from the penalties associated with spewing filthy diesel emissions, VW should buy back the autos sold under this scheme. I know an ASE certified diesel tech, he said I can tell you right now that once the onboard ECM's are re-programmed to comply full time, these cars are no way going to be able to perform as promised to their customers and the mileage will also tank.
I say just let VW fold, they've been lagging in technology by at least five years.
Look at KIA, they were making bicycles 20 years ago and now they've been outselling VW by making quality cars and guaranteeing them with 10yr/100,000k mile warranties. Bye Bye Volkwagen.
I say just let VW fold, they've been lagging in technology by at least five years.
Look at KIA, they were making bicycles 20 years ago and now they've been outselling VW by making quality cars and guaranteeing them with 10yr/100,000k mile warranties. Bye Bye Volkwagen.
Once again, the United States' regulatory actions are protecting European consumers. Where is the EU pencil pushers? Not too long ago FIFA was the target and the US did what the Europeans could not. The Continent is all talk and no action, "we're so great and you're boneheads". Blah blah blah, tabernacle!
6
The EPA was also fooled. It was a private environmental group that made the discovery. They gave the EPA the information.
Nothing short of criminal prosecution of all involved, from the very top to the very bottom, of the corporate organization will send a message to other present and future capitalists with out a conscience. Fines and recalls have become nothing more than the cost of doing business.
4
This image says it all: the stallion is a powerful engine, but it will always run amok if it is not domesticated.
http://www.capitolmarkets.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/FTC-Sculpture-6...
http://www.capitolmarkets.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/FTC-Sculpture-6...
2
I drive a 2009 VW Sportwagon TDI and love it. It's gone 192,000 miles and It does not smell, it does not smoke. I live in Texas and see thousands of late-model diesel light trucks and SUVs spewing black smoke every time they hit the accelerator. You can't tell me my car is dirtier than those large vehicles. VW made a bad choice but this all may turn out to be less than what is expected right now.
5
I believe that you don't get it. It is not the statistics that you mention, it is the fraud and deception that is going to kill them. An automobile company does not make up it's own rules, and especially not for emissions. The all-important testing puts VW in the worse light possible. VW can talk all they want, try to copy Mary Barra but they will pay a steep price for this very dumb act that not only borders but may get into criminal activity! Very, very stupid on their part.
6
How far did you go before the first brake job?
3
Nitrous oxide is one of the worst greenhouse gases there is. Just because you can't see it doesn't mean it isn't there and not doing damage. Yes the "black smoke" is bad too, but that doesn't mean we abandon all other regulations..
2
Where have I see this before ? GM covers up faulty ignitions, banks are caught manipulating interest rates, deceiving customers, laundering drug cartel and terrorist funds, rating companies issue AAA ratings to junk bonds, energy companies wantonly pollute and damage the environement, blah, blah blah. Expect the usual game plan here, no one is responsible, mistakes were ambigously made, they will never happen again as the corporate culture will be improved, meaningless fines will be applied, no individual will be punished, jailed or held accountable. And ironically corporations are felt by our Supreme Court to be endowed with rights that previously had been though to accrue only to individuals, except when it comes to punishment. Its the same game here--privatize the gain and socialize the loss. The only wonder is that pichforks and guillotines haven't made an comeback yet.
15
Until recently I loved my Audi Q5 TDI. Now, not so much. The "clean diesel" was one of the reasons I bought it. Is there a plan to give other TDI engines from the same level of scrutiny?
2
VW is rather large, and my preference is to give the conglomerate VW employee base the benefit of the doubt.
As I ponder, I'm wondering: who exactly was privy to the details or even the very existence of this scandal?
The engine designers must have known... the software developers, quality assurance engineers, business owners if any, must have known.
What about the sales and marketing team? How about the CEO himself? How far up the chain did this conspiracy involve?
In my opinion, if VW wants to BEGIN to regain the trust of their consumer base, they should be making genuine, publicized efforts into their otherwise internal investigation. We need names, we need consequences. Many comments here are communicating anguish, distrust, anger... This that I would not want to evoke from my fellow human being, and if I personally did, I'd want to remedy it. So VW, please remedy it.
As I ponder, I'm wondering: who exactly was privy to the details or even the very existence of this scandal?
The engine designers must have known... the software developers, quality assurance engineers, business owners if any, must have known.
What about the sales and marketing team? How about the CEO himself? How far up the chain did this conspiracy involve?
In my opinion, if VW wants to BEGIN to regain the trust of their consumer base, they should be making genuine, publicized efforts into their otherwise internal investigation. We need names, we need consequences. Many comments here are communicating anguish, distrust, anger... This that I would not want to evoke from my fellow human being, and if I personally did, I'd want to remedy it. So VW, please remedy it.
3
I am profoundly sorry that we got caught.
But at least no individuals will be held responsible.
And amidst the GM, J&J, Merck, Honda, etc scandals and deceptions and murders and maimings, is it too much to hope that our little crime will be forgotten?
But at least no individuals will be held responsible.
And amidst the GM, J&J, Merck, Honda, etc scandals and deceptions and murders and maimings, is it too much to hope that our little crime will be forgotten?
1
I guess this is one of those circumstances in which government is not the problem but probably the only means of securing a solution that VW can be forced to take.
7
Our 2012 TDi wagon passed MA inspection today thanks to the on board computer system. Dealership was about empty. They had an e-golf there and a charging box for the garage on display. We bought a TDi, like many others I assume, with the idea that we would be using less fuel in an environmentally responsible way. I'd change my mind about VW if they offered us one of the e-golfs in exchange for the Jetta. Imagine replacing the 500,000 tdi's with electric vehicles. That'd help push the demand for charging stations, get the TDis and VW fraud off the road and show that VW really does care about its customers and the environment.
3
Dream on.
2
How is Vee Dub gonna survive the onslaught of lawsuits?
What on earth were they thinking?
What on earth were they thinking?
1
Germany will bail out VW just like we bailed out GM and Chrysler. Germany will own VW, and at least for a while. VW is too important to Germany, it's industries, it's employees, the importance to Germany's economy. There is no one more angry about this than the Germans themselves. This is no one year fix. This will go on for a long time and will fundamentally change VW.
3
I know at least one emerging economy where you can simply take your diesel car to an after-market software fiddler and for about 500 euros have him override any emission optimisation, gaining 10-15% torque and horsepower in the process. The guy also warns you that every now and then you will see an eruption of soot from the tailpipe under hard acceleration, and adds that that is normal and harmless.
It seems these VWs came with that kind of fiddling already in place, perhaps with somewhat less aggressive settings. Let's see how many of those 482K owners will choose to take their cars back to the dealer when the recall begins and have them "detune" their cars.
It seems these VWs came with that kind of fiddling already in place, perhaps with somewhat less aggressive settings. Let's see how many of those 482K owners will choose to take their cars back to the dealer when the recall begins and have them "detune" their cars.
1
Here in the U.S., many States require bi-annual emissions systems validation of the tailpipe output.
Rest assured just ignoring it won't be possible.
Rest assured just ignoring it won't be possible.
Those states such as yours are legalizing government theft of private property, destroying the finances and livlihoods of many of the very citizens they think they are protecting. CA can jump in the ocean.
VW lost me as a customer when my Tiguan began leaking like a sieve from the sunroof destroying the vehicle electronics that are placed on the floor under the passenger seat. It turns out that this is a common problem in the Tiguan. My wife's convertible beetle, after about 7 years, had the interior plastics start to disintegrate and break. VW is badly managed and its cars are poorly designed and expensive to maintain. This is just one more nail in the coffin.
5
Same happened with my Passat, then with my Jetta. Volkwagen never took responsibility for it, nor did the extended warranty I bought through their dealer. While the company is admitting things, they should admit that they let a heck of a lot more customers down when they could have done right by them. Alas, they're too busy trying to figure out how to deceive the next buyer and governments. Great folks at Volkswagen, eh?
American emission regulations for cars are particularly hard on diesels even though they get 50% more miles to the gallon. This helps American car makers, who produce few diesels. The standard for light truck diesels, which are almost all manufactured by American companies, are a lot looser. It's not entirely clear whether the EPA is protecting the environment or General Motors.
5
The EPA is protecting people. There is a well established link between deisel emissions and adverse health outcomes that has been well documented in the published medical literature.
Thank you VW for helping us rush even faster into climate armageddon. Hope your profits keep you cool.
3
I'm assuming they're now going to have to show they haven't applied this approach to their entire vehicle line....
The disturbing part is that it was found by a pair of journalists doing a simple reality check. It is not a question of whether complex emissions software will be optimized for the test, anybody should expect they will be, but how far the test deviates from normal reality. Regular on-the-road reality checks have been missing.
This should have been caught a long time ago, by the authorities. Heads should roll within the relevant branches of government, and lots of them.
This should have been caught a long time ago, by the authorities. Heads should roll within the relevant branches of government, and lots of them.
7
It was not journalists. It was in fact an NGO that had actually set out to (get ready for the irony) prove that cleaner diesels are real and that the Europeans could make their emissions standards more strict.
1
"CONSERVATIVES" WANT UNFETTERED CAPITALISM . . .
...as this VW example indicates why independent oversight by the government is needed.
Even Adam Smith knew this.
...as this VW example indicates why independent oversight by the government is needed.
Even Adam Smith knew this.
8
Bravo to the EPA! Great job - thank you for exposing this criminal fraud and acting in humanity's best interest; you just demonstrated the power of effective government and democracy. Relatedly, why is the US the only country which seems capable of exposing and prosecuting these international fraud and corruption rings (see also, FIFA scandal)? It seems to me that, while we have many flaws and problems, we are still the "beacon on the hill" in many ways.
4
Volkswagen isn't the only stock that's down - again. The "markets" are a sea of red around the world. Things are not looking great unless you are one of the top 1% global financial elite - then you'll be fine.
http://www.bloomberg.com/markets/world
http://www.bloomberg.com/markets/world
6
VW isn't the only one doing this. Its long been rumored that all car makers tune their on-board computer systems to detect situations seen in automotive smog testing and mileage tests. The question isn't if other companies are doing this, the question is in the very tight-knit world of programming automobile engine control systems, who else is going to admit doing this type of "tuning" to their automobiles?
11
Other makers have done this, such as the heavy diesel industry, got caught, fined and changed. But this is huge compared to anything before. No doubt, business will not be the same as usual. All companies will be under intense scrutiny because of this. Software tampering has taken a big hit.
VW diesel owners have to wonder exactly how much difference there will be in performance after the diesels have been returned to the standard that passed the EPA tests. I know I do. The difference must be enormous though, for VW to take such a chance. Otherwise I love my new Passat TDI and was surprised it never caught on with consumers.
3
The moral lesson, if one is a cynic, is that traditional criminal gangs should register as limited liability corporations. Then the gang bosses can get away with fines rather than massive jail time when caught. If corporations can have the advantages of being persons, then persons should get the advantages of incorporating, no?
9
The Yakusa in Japan are legally incorporated.
VW, for all its engineering competence, could not avoid the tradeoff between mileage and performance on the one hand and pollution control on the other. The company, or at least some in it, made the decision to opt for better performance and more mileage and to avoid the tradeoff--by cheating. They will pay to fix the cars and then they will have to compensate 11 million owners who no longer get the performance and mileage they bargained for. VW’s problems are only beginning.
VW was wrong legally and ethically. But what if VW was (unintentionally) right in terms of public policy? What if the global warming effects of the extra fuel required to operate the pollution controls will do much more harm to humanity and other living things in the longer term than increased nitrogen oxide, etc., will do in the near term? Another area of trade-off between pollution control and reduction of global warming is the prevention of atmospheric particulate matter, which may reduce solar heat gain.
We may already be past the tipping point in one or both of these trade-offs. To consider this question is to acknowledge that we may be at or past the point where far more radical steps to reduce carbon dioxide production are appropriate – or essential. Food for thought.
VW was wrong legally and ethically. But what if VW was (unintentionally) right in terms of public policy? What if the global warming effects of the extra fuel required to operate the pollution controls will do much more harm to humanity and other living things in the longer term than increased nitrogen oxide, etc., will do in the near term? Another area of trade-off between pollution control and reduction of global warming is the prevention of atmospheric particulate matter, which may reduce solar heat gain.
We may already be past the tipping point in one or both of these trade-offs. To consider this question is to acknowledge that we may be at or past the point where far more radical steps to reduce carbon dioxide production are appropriate – or essential. Food for thought.
3
Your question erroneously assumes a zero sum trade off between emissions and greenhouse gases. Or between performance and pollution. Both are inaccurate.
Plenty of energy sources produce neither greenhouse gases nor particulate emissions. (Solar, wind, geothermal, hydroelectric, nuclear). Conversely, some energy sources (like deisel) produce both.
Test drive a Tesla or any of the other electric cars available, and they will quickly disabuse you of the notion that performance necessitates pollution
Plenty of energy sources produce neither greenhouse gases nor particulate emissions. (Solar, wind, geothermal, hydroelectric, nuclear). Conversely, some energy sources (like deisel) produce both.
Test drive a Tesla or any of the other electric cars available, and they will quickly disabuse you of the notion that performance necessitates pollution
I hope all the state Attorneys General are paying attention, because in addition to being morally reprehensible, it appears that this is also criminal. In NY, it appears to be in violation of Penal Law Section 190.65 - Scheme to Defraud in the 1st degree - which is a felony, in addition to being in violation of PL Sec. 190.60 - Scheme to Defraud in the 2d degree and False Advertising (PL 190.20), both of which are misdemeanors. I'm sure Mr. Schneiderman (our state AG)will be all over this.
6
Despite the fact that the two (of ten) new cars I have bought that had serious defects or problems were Volkswagens (the others were GM & Ford products), until this week I had a reasonably good view of Volkswagen--thinking that my troubles were unique rather than typical. I should have known better when I had to replace the original brakes at 20k and 25k miles, having gone 55-85k miles on original brakes in GM & Ford products. I should have known when ice accumulated inside the door (causing the door to crease when opened) and numerous calls and letters to Volkswagen did nothing but make me aware they didn't care. I should have known with the many other problems I had, electrical, structural & mechanical--especially when I'd experienced none of these issues with any of the other new cars I've bought. I should have known when I traded in both Volkswagens before 40k miles and have happily driven GM and Ford products into six figures, one to 165,000. Clearly, the corporate culture at Volkswagen is severely flawed. Very unfortunate.
7
So I'd like to know what other automakers are fudging the system? Are we to believe that VW is alone in the industry on this one?
7
My husband wanted us to buy a diesel Audi which he insisted was "cleaner" than cars that use regular gas. I told him that if he believed that, he should stand behind any diesel Mercedes, inhale, and then tell me if he still believes what a corporation says.
Since corporations are people, and this corporation/person has admitted to committing multiple acts of fraud and deception, why aren't all their corporate big wigs in jail?
Seriously, why aren't the VW (and Audi) corporate executives in jail?
Does anyone really believe their meager "fines" (and canned apologies) are going to stop them or any other corporation from continuing to break the law intentionally and defraud the public?
Since corporations are people, and this corporation/person has admitted to committing multiple acts of fraud and deception, why aren't all their corporate big wigs in jail?
Seriously, why aren't the VW (and Audi) corporate executives in jail?
Does anyone really believe their meager "fines" (and canned apologies) are going to stop them or any other corporation from continuing to break the law intentionally and defraud the public?
8
Since corporations are people, my friend, they can go to jail just like the rest of us. I'm waiting for the CEO of VW to be criminally charged.
4
I thought about buying a VW diesel , but fell for the GTI instead. I love the car even more now.
3
CLEAN DIESEL's, Same-Same, CLEAN COAL !
I wonder if both industries use the same Marketing or PR firm.
I wonder if both industries use the same Marketing or PR firm.
6
My question is WHY would anyone buy a DEISEL VW? The diesel fumes are toxic beyond belief. And shame on VW! People who buy VW diesels just don't care enough about the environment. Don't buy them!
2
You're thinking of diesels theway they were 30-40 years ago. Modern diesels don't smell or emit fumes like that. And I am not referring to only the VW cheating diesels; I mean Mazda, BMW, Mercedes, Jeep, Ford...
Who believes this CEO is sorry for anything other than the fact they were caught? Has he not resigned? Has he not been cuffed? Fines are not enough. Fixing the problem is not enough. He and, I'm sure, many of his underlings deserve long prison terms. Make an example of them...Then, sit back and watch the others come out of the woodwork. You think VW is the only car company doing this? I do not.
4
Several people have posted that their 2004, etc... VW TDI cars pass inspection with no fuss why not the new ones? That is because the standard changed in 2009. Clearly VW (engineers and managers) saw that their engine would not pass without a significant re-design. But they did not want to do that at the time. It was working fine the way it was. Better to do a work around. It seems that VW is particularly reluctant to update the mechanics of their cars. Every new design takes years to be implemented and rolled out world wide. The 5 cylinder gas engine was considered ancient, inefficient and under powered. Yet their road map called for it to stay in production to 2015 so that's how it was. The new 1.8 liter gas turbo is winning praise and they no doubt could have installed it in US cars 5 years ago if they wanted to but they didn't. Perhaps there already is a new diesel engine slated for 2018 or 2020. The 2 liter turbo diesel is basically the same engine they have been using since 2002.
2
The engine was redesigned to integrate the turobocharger and intercooler for the 2015 model year.
I can't honestly say I will never buy VW again.
I bought my last VW bus, a 1978 model, back in the mid-1980s.
But I certainly won't EVER again even consider VW as a choice.
I had a Chevy Cavalier, which I loved, I have a Chevy Cobalt, which is still drive, and I had thought of buying a Cruze.
But that will not happen as I will no longer purchase Chevy for taking bail-out money and using the bail-out to escape penalties for lying about their ignition switches.
I bought my last VW bus, a 1978 model, back in the mid-1980s.
But I certainly won't EVER again even consider VW as a choice.
I had a Chevy Cavalier, which I loved, I have a Chevy Cobalt, which is still drive, and I had thought of buying a Cruze.
But that will not happen as I will no longer purchase Chevy for taking bail-out money and using the bail-out to escape penalties for lying about their ignition switches.
5
Fraud? Lying? Cheating? No surprises there. They're capitalists, doing what capitalists do to turn a profit at others' expense.
6
A few years ago BMW was caught cheating. Mini Coopers with CVT transmissions were know to be defective and BMW covered this up from the consumer and made the consumer pay for the repairs. The cost to repair the transmission was $4,000-10,000 for a car that starts at under 20K. BMW is still selling Mini's and few people remember or even knew about this. VW will count on the consumer forgetting about this. I'd be ticked as all heck if I bought a diesel VW.
2
No one is going to forget this. BMW engineering a bad product and trying to get by is a whole lot different from fraud and deception. Too bad you have reacted in a cynical way but this is not anything that will be forgotten. In fact, this episode will be a text book example of what any corporation should never, ever do. Never, or pay the price. And believe it, VW will pay a very high price.
2
Well, if corporations want to be considered "individuals," then they should be treated as individuals would in this circumstance. A fraud this large resulted in Bernie Madoff being sent to prison for over 100 years. I am one of the TDI owners. I was proud of my car, how it "helped" the environment. Not only am I furious about the deception, but one of the reasons I bought this car was the "sales point" that diesels hold re-sale value better than gas cars. Not this time...so in a fraud like this where so many people have been involved, rather than punish the corporation, it's time to go after the individuals.
6
This is a criminal fraud committed by people who almost certainly are not stereotypical criminals. While the mess is being sorted out, a team of academics needs to be on hand to document how this happened. How did a large international company with a good reputation come to engage in a criminal, and criminally stupid, fraud like this? It is almost a certainty that nobody called his staff into a meeting and ordered, "Let's perpetrate a fraud on our customers and the world." It is almost equally certain that the individuals who wrote the bogus code and who approved its use did not individually profit by the fraud. So what forces pushed people into this? The social forces at work here contain important lessons for the rest of us.
3
I seriously considered a VW TDI Sportwagen for my last vehicle. I also was impressed at the level of economy and power it offered, but in the end my enthusiast side won out and I went with a MINI Countryman. Now, I see that following my heart instead of my head was the proper choice.
3
Maybe not. Look at all of the lies and deception BMW pulled off when they knew they had bad CVT transmissions in the Mini.
2
The DSG transmission in VWs is a gem. It is a major contributor to the efficiency and performance of these cars.
GM is fined only $900 million for at least 174 deaths and many, many more injuries---a slap on the wrist for its egregious corporate wrongdoing.
And, with total impunity, The Big Three keep producing huge gas guzzlers that pollute the air, waste fuel, and clog the highways.
In California, and throughout the U.S., virtually nothing is being done to curtail diesel pollution from large trucks---despite shockingly high particulate pollution in many areas.
BP is fined only $13.7 billion for its Gulf of Mexico disaster---a result of fraud and cover-up---that killed and injured workers, destroyed wildlife and people's livelihoods, and inflicted severe and permanent harm on the Gulf, its fisheries, surrounding communities, and countless bird and mammal species.
10 or 50 wrongs don't make a right. VW committed fraud and needs to be punished. But why do we let GM off the hook, essentially? And for even more grievous offenses.
And, with total impunity, The Big Three keep producing huge gas guzzlers that pollute the air, waste fuel, and clog the highways.
In California, and throughout the U.S., virtually nothing is being done to curtail diesel pollution from large trucks---despite shockingly high particulate pollution in many areas.
BP is fined only $13.7 billion for its Gulf of Mexico disaster---a result of fraud and cover-up---that killed and injured workers, destroyed wildlife and people's livelihoods, and inflicted severe and permanent harm on the Gulf, its fisheries, surrounding communities, and countless bird and mammal species.
10 or 50 wrongs don't make a right. VW committed fraud and needs to be punished. But why do we let GM off the hook, essentially? And for even more grievous offenses.
5
The Obama administration has implemented a substantial program to upgrade the performance of heavy truck and equipment diesels too.
Carcinogenic pollutants in excess of 40 times allowable limits are emitted except when being tested. Is it not correct to assume that many people succumbed to cancer at the same time as VW was benefitting from stellar false claims that these vehicles were more efficient and clean burning than their competition? Is it not obvious that blood is on their hands? By not acknowledging the illness, suffering and death caused by this deliberate deception I do not accept Mr. Martin Winterkorn's apology. Similarly the White House response, IMO was weak, treating a monumental despicable avaricious crime more like a misdemeanor and not even mentioned the international corporation by name. It was not simply "this particular company" it was Volkswagen.
10
No sector, no region, no corner of this earth is safe from the dark side of human nature. To me, this news is a punch to the gut. I had faith in this company. Now, I'm reminded of their origins. It is, after all, the original Nazi car. I know, times have changed, but have they really?
6
Listening to Volkswagen's CEO was enough to make me throw up a little bit in my mouth. Can anyone think of a worse example of any corporation that WILLFULLY attempted to circumvent laws designed to protect our environment in such a BLATANT way? To now hear them say words like "transparency" and "cooperation", in my case. fell on entirely deaf ears. I would NEVER consider purchasing a product from such an evil company. I'll just stick with my Mercedes.
5
Just like the U.S. government investigation into currency price fixing, how is it we have this "remarkable" ability to identify outright fraudulence in another country?? The Volkswagen story leaves me wondering what exactly the European consumer protection and anti fraud unit is doing over there?? Are the lights on? VW's woes reinforce the impression that the U.S. is pleased to be sliding back into the role of watchdog...and this is not on our watch...it's the countries in Europe that should be directing more scrutiny in their own backyard!
2
NOx emissions standards are lower in Europe. In my understanding there was no fraud in cars sold in Europe, which met European standards. This is a U.S.-specific issue: when the U.S. tightened their NOx standards, VW implemented a system that left the engines unchanged and instead reduced tailpipe NOx only during actual official testing.
1
I would hope that each state's DMV will require that the registered owner provide proof that the fix has been installed. Looking at higher costs, lower mileage and less power, the owner has absolutely no incentive to have the fix installed.
1
There are studies out that show that ordinary people will commit fraud in order ensure that a team of people are successful. When asked of those caught why they did what they did, they felt that they had no choice and they were almost required to cheat and others with no major stake in a project's success are willing to becoming accomplices out of empathy for primary cheaters. All the guilty players don't pay attention to the law because it is too abstract for them to understand the consequences. This is why we need regulations on corporations and especially strict audits and inspections. Why couldn't inspections have caught this fraud earlier is what I wanna know. Could there be a conflict that of interest within the regulatory body?
4
This seems like a prime opportunity to simply eliminate diesel vehicles. Diesel exhaust, after all, is a known carcinogen. This is a public health hazard. Why have our government regulators been sitting on their hands for far too long on this issue?
6
The White House is "quite concerned" about VW's fraud. Let me guess: The concern is that DOJ will now be under intense scrutiny to see if its new policy of not letting individual corporate malfeasants go criminally unpunished actually means anything. Yes, President Obama, we are watching, but I suspect most of us believe that the new DOJ policy is all talk and that VW will get away with a fine and deferred prosecution agreement and that no individual employees, especially higher ups, will serve any jail time.
5
Everyone has been ripped off. Not just people conned into buying these cars like myself but the air breathing public as well as all of vw's competitors and dealers. Toyota should seize the moment and offer pre-scam trade-in prices for tdi drivers switching to a prius. With the kind of loyalty that would buy they could perpetrate their own scams no problem.
2
So VW put out there cars that create 40 times the amount of pollution allowed. That is structural violence against all people in North America and Europe.. Long, long jail time is needed for top management and others involved in the violence against people. As for VW, it deserves to die. As they might say in Texas about capital punishment, a strong example and deterrent needs to be set.
8
People responsible need to be put in jail for this.
11
Actually, I'd bet that whoever came up with the idea was promoted and praised long ago at VW-Audi-Porsche Corp. His only problem was they got caught. The next question is what else have they been lying about to sell more cars ? You just know this is not their debut at this kind of thing.
2
And, of course, this begs the question, what about the other auto makers? They must be frantic as we speak. This incident could open up a pandora's box in the auto industry.
Pollution control laws foisted on car maker are poorly thought out by incompetent federal ideologues and hated by most car owners. No wonder VW thought to fight back.
5
That is a grossly irresponsible statement. Regardless of one's feelings on the efficacy or even validity of a law or regulation, that does not entitle lawlessness. VW has the right to "fight back" by going to court and Congress to overthrow such regulations it does not approve of, or simply not sell affected cars. It does NOT have the right to break the law and defraud consumers. My son just bought a diesel Jetta in April, and the principle reasons were the gas mileage, the reputation of VW, and the low emissions - he wanted to do the right thing. VW defrauded him on all three counts.
15
WV and other car manufacturers along with their registered companies like VW USA has far bigger problems of there own as compared to the other Company in Germany that is the world leaders in the Auto Industry among others . Germany is a world leader in manufacturing all kinds of automobiles and by far some of the best. But it is cursed fundamentally flawed economic system based on consumer economics , that does not work and the greed creed profits through so called market share.
Plus there is the used car sales business, maintenance and repairs plus dealer parts that cost some 100 to 200% more then OEM parts on the open market.
New car sales is just one aspects, dealer businesses for maintenance, repairs and cost of parts accounts for over 50% of the income for dealers, Where lies much bigger fraud and deceit, where repairs and expensive part replacement are not needed but done to ripoff the consumer.
Of course VW has lied through its teeth, about using software to manipulate exhaust emission, denied, perpetuated and finally got caught red handed. The fine is estimated as some $18 billion for a total 11 million plus for just diesel engine cars. US EPA can mandate for cars sold in the US only. But it is telling VW that it has violated the decency and integrity by polluting and we have seen the smog in China, the VW's biggest market. EPA say pay the fine fix the problem & move on. But US consumer protection will level other fraud.
Plus there is the used car sales business, maintenance and repairs plus dealer parts that cost some 100 to 200% more then OEM parts on the open market.
New car sales is just one aspects, dealer businesses for maintenance, repairs and cost of parts accounts for over 50% of the income for dealers, Where lies much bigger fraud and deceit, where repairs and expensive part replacement are not needed but done to ripoff the consumer.
Of course VW has lied through its teeth, about using software to manipulate exhaust emission, denied, perpetuated and finally got caught red handed. The fine is estimated as some $18 billion for a total 11 million plus for just diesel engine cars. US EPA can mandate for cars sold in the US only. But it is telling VW that it has violated the decency and integrity by polluting and we have seen the smog in China, the VW's biggest market. EPA say pay the fine fix the problem & move on. But US consumer protection will level other fraud.
1
When I leased my TDI, I asked the salesman how they get by without urea injection. Of course he didn't know. Most car salesmen know very little of a technical nature about what they sell.
5
That is by design. Clueless salesmen sell more believably.
2
The VW case embodies a more general crisis. Pathetically striving to survive and beat their fellow derelicts, some car builders fake their engines, others mount financial architectures, all exhibit monster cars to meet the dreams of the playboys of the sixties, or of the sci-fi cartoons of the thirties (like that little driverless car) but none of them have a vision for the 21th century automotive industry.
The central question is energy, yet they keep breeding horses without a clue as to what hay will be like tomorrow.
Can these clay footed giants recover the central role that was theirs in our advanced societies? Of course they can, and the cost of an epochal change would be less than what VW will have to pay for being tricky. Furthermore, a fantastic business, related to environmental regulations, will be an historic opportunity for the automotive industry to escape from Lord Petroleum’s deadly embrace. This is what the WaMs Networks Project is about. “We Want WaMs! A paradigm shift for the car industry, society, energy and peace” is a two-page abstract, available in four languages at https://independent.academia.edu/JeanSantilli (a site where millions of researchers publish their works.)
The central question is energy, yet they keep breeding horses without a clue as to what hay will be like tomorrow.
Can these clay footed giants recover the central role that was theirs in our advanced societies? Of course they can, and the cost of an epochal change would be less than what VW will have to pay for being tricky. Furthermore, a fantastic business, related to environmental regulations, will be an historic opportunity for the automotive industry to escape from Lord Petroleum’s deadly embrace. This is what the WaMs Networks Project is about. “We Want WaMs! A paradigm shift for the car industry, society, energy and peace” is a two-page abstract, available in four languages at https://independent.academia.edu/JeanSantilli (a site where millions of researchers publish their works.)
This scandal is yet another strong argument for government regulation of all industries. It is also not a surprise to see Volkswagen at the core of the problem. Its divisions seem to have trouble acknowledging problems and being honest and fair with consumers. For example, from the late 1990s through at least 2005, Porsche put out as many as a half million cars whose engines contained an inherent defect that could cause the powerplant to fail when the car was just out of warranty, necessitating a replacement that could cost owners $15,000 or more. Porsche repeatedly failed to acknowledge the problem and offered very limited or no compensation to customers. A recent class action suit finally forced the company to provide modest extra warranty coverage to a limited number of affected owners. But up to the end, Porsche fought tooth and nail to deny the problem, even though case after case of these engine failures was being reported to NHTSA and others.
Now, the question is whether Volkswagen will simply be slapped with fines, which it can well afford, or whether executives will actually go to jail. The latter would truly be a surprise.
Now, the question is whether Volkswagen will simply be slapped with fines, which it can well afford, or whether executives will actually go to jail. The latter would truly be a surprise.
6
Porsche USA is now offering to compensate Porsche owners by offering them a free, albeit slightly used, VW diesel.
7
I have been very happy with my Cannondale bicycle. Gets me all around Boston very easily and inexpensively, and with zero emissions.
7
Please, come to Houston and ride your wonderful bike 50 miles each way to work in 100 degree heat, down the freeway.
While we all appreciate the niceties of being on vacation, the rest of us have to live in the real world.
While we all appreciate the niceties of being on vacation, the rest of us have to live in the real world.
3
Are you absolutely sure about the zero emissions?
4
Why do you assume that I am on vacation? I am commuting to work on my bicycle. And I made a deliberate decision to live close enough to work to be able to do so. It is amazing what you can afford when you don't buy into our society's pressure to own and operate a car at $ 10 k a year.
What is completely missing in this news and covered in much more detail here in Germany is that to meet the EPA regulations does not pose a technical problem as some suggest.
Instead it was due to cheapskates as a better exhaust filter system which would add costs of about 75-100 EUR per car would have passed EPA standard without any negative side effects on power, torque or mileage.
In the end somebody at management seems to have decided it is cheaper to "trick" emission tests via software then to actually build something into the engine which would have cost more money.
Instead it was due to cheapskates as a better exhaust filter system which would add costs of about 75-100 EUR per car would have passed EPA standard without any negative side effects on power, torque or mileage.
In the end somebody at management seems to have decided it is cheaper to "trick" emission tests via software then to actually build something into the engine which would have cost more money.
18
I purchased a 2010 Golf TDI and paid a premium over the gas version for the expected benefit to the environment. Fortunately I sold the car last month, but I would expect some sort of compensation for their fraud. Not to mention that I've spent the past six years singing [false] praise of VW's diesel technology. Shameful.
4
Perhaps you should help pay for VW's damages as you've been essentially stealing diesel fuel and it's associated tax income from the American Taxpayer for years now. The shame of it all. How do you sleep at night?
4
The US head of VW says in the video accompanying this story that "We totally screwed up." Given the company's sudden, massive loss of credibility, one wonders if he meant that VW screwed up by getting caught. Cheating on emissions tests on this scale had to be known to company executives. They should all resign and go straight to prison. Give das auto das boot.
5
Nobody's admitting this in the press, but the core reason is that the emissions controls lowered the fuel mileage significantly. The penalities to VW will be significant, but they did something very good for our children's environment. NOxs will decompose in the atmosphere, but the CO2 emissions saved by this deceipt are significant.
4
Ummm. No. and no.
CO2/is not a significant byproduct of diesel exhaust. (Gasoline engine? Yes.)
NOx doesn't just decompose in the atmosphere. It creates photochemical smog that causes major breathing problems and lung damage to real people, often kids and the elderly. In fact some of the people affected by NOX emissions are other drivers.
In any event it is unclear what you mean by decompose. If you are of the mindset that somehow it gets diluted away into nothing and is not visible that is an interesting and unique kind of atmospheric science.
CO2/is not a significant byproduct of diesel exhaust. (Gasoline engine? Yes.)
NOx doesn't just decompose in the atmosphere. It creates photochemical smog that causes major breathing problems and lung damage to real people, often kids and the elderly. In fact some of the people affected by NOX emissions are other drivers.
In any event it is unclear what you mean by decompose. If you are of the mindset that somehow it gets diluted away into nothing and is not visible that is an interesting and unique kind of atmospheric science.
1
I hope the media will report what the software revision of April 2015 was intended to do. I had it done to my car and if anything it added about 1 more mpg to fuel economy.
2
... if anything it added about 1 more mpg to fuel economy.>>>
According to the board computer of your VW??? I see... Steve, you never learn, right?
According to the board computer of your VW??? I see... Steve, you never learn, right?
Does Hillary drive a VW? Since they're both too clever by half (the personal email server to conduct official business while skirting government oversight and the software to scam the EPA), it seems like a marketing marriage made in heaven. How exactly did these "smartest people in the room" think their arrogant and willful misconduct wouldn't see the light of day and/or wouldn't have consequences?
3
You know, I didn't think that anybody would be able to tie this one to Hillary, but doggone it, you were able to connect the dots like nobody else.
5
I've owned six Volkswagens, two of them are TDIs.
I'm sure there will be a video popping up showing some old guy disappearing into the rest room at the VW factory, for 90 seconds with a bag full of engine control units....
I'm sure there will be a video popping up showing some old guy disappearing into the rest room at the VW factory, for 90 seconds with a bag full of engine control units....
Rest in peace, Volkswagen.
Over 7 billion to fix the fraud. Add in another 20 billion for the shareholder lawsuits over fraud and destroying company value. An other 10 billion paid in legal fees for the company, executive officers, board members and engineers that colluded, or happily slept at the switch.
Then there will be fines of some sort from every country where they sold cars. And just who will buy this company since it will require assumption of liability, unless it has a stake driven through its heart in a complete bankruptcy.
Rest in pieces, Volkswagen.
Over 7 billion to fix the fraud. Add in another 20 billion for the shareholder lawsuits over fraud and destroying company value. An other 10 billion paid in legal fees for the company, executive officers, board members and engineers that colluded, or happily slept at the switch.
Then there will be fines of some sort from every country where they sold cars. And just who will buy this company since it will require assumption of liability, unless it has a stake driven through its heart in a complete bankruptcy.
Rest in pieces, Volkswagen.
7
The $10 billion in legal fees is too high, but you forgot about the damages due to the car owners, beyond the amount demanded by the gov't.
1
We have not heard the end of this story. Don't jump to conclusions until we have heard from the engineers at VW. The are a lot smart than both you and me.
The brazen nature of this crime from a household name indicates strongly that corporations in general find it cheaper to openly cheat Americans than to follow our laws. This level of overt fraud should be remedied with a 5 year ban on all VW products sold in the US.
5
I heard a new report this morning that apparently almost no manufacturer's diesel cars are compliant with US standards. Most diesels are routinely emitting 5 to 10 times the limit. If this is true, this is an industry wide problem and much bigger than VW.
4
When I read "The German automaker said it was setting aside the equivalent of half a year’s profits — 6.5 billion euros, or about $7.3 billion — to cover the cost of fixing the cars to comply with pollution standards and to cover other expenses, which are likely to include fines as well as responses to civil lawsuits from angry customers.", all I see is that VW, despite sick lying, disgusting deception, and subsequent pollution of our atmosphere for profit, is going to profit. This is basically saying, "Oh, gee whiz, we're really sorry. Guess we'll just be taking home 6.5 billion euros instead of 13 billion....darn." That they're still going to be in the green after what they've done seems pretty deplorable. I hope we all collectively (governments, citizens, etc) find a better way to crack down on this reprehensible behavior.
4
The idea of designing something such that it passes compliance tests but doesn't necessarily work in the real world has occurred to every engineer in every discipline. It is a weakness of engineering culture generally, not just VW: engineers are educated to knock out designs as efficiently as possible without thinking about broader, cultural implications. When I worked in cellphones, this (complying with compliance tests w/o necessarily working in the real world) was called "specsmanship;" many engineers didn't even realize it was problem.
3
Engineers are trained to design to specs.
Lawyers are going to argue encyclopedias over the rights of manufacturers to optimize for a particular duty cycle prescribed by regulators.
Lawyers are going to argue encyclopedias over the rights of manufacturers to optimize for a particular duty cycle prescribed by regulators.
1
It would be impossible for me to accept any form of apology from VW. What an incredibly stupid thing to do. With 11 million copies out there in the world and someone at VW thought no one would notice? It may be that some smart lawyer(s) sees a big pay day with a class action law suit and a lot of people who work for VW loose their jobs and god knows what else.
3
The car in the photo claims to get about 150 miles per gallon. Whatever else it emits, it sure cuts CO2 emission substantially. CO2 is the longest lived waste gas from car engines.
3
According to the NY Times: "The software sensed when the car was being tested and then activated equipment that reduced emissions, United States officials said."
The question that no one is asking, is how does the software detects that the car is in test mode?
Here is my answer.
I assume that the state inspection is done using the On Board Diagnostics (OBD) port, hence the vehicle's software can detect that it is in test mode.
The question that no one is asking, is how does the software detects that the car is in test mode?
Here is my answer.
I assume that the state inspection is done using the On Board Diagnostics (OBD) port, hence the vehicle's software can detect that it is in test mode.
1
In the chummy automobile industry I would think there are some other manufacturers who are a little nervous.
Good for the United States in uncovering this fraud (worldwide now) and good for the U.S. in exposing worldwide soccer fraud earlier this year.
And does this not once again illustrate the overwhelming importance of our government oversight agencies—the need for them to be healthy, independent, and well funded—not have their budgets slashed, their independence compromised, and their morale diminished.
Good for the United States in uncovering this fraud (worldwide now) and good for the U.S. in exposing worldwide soccer fraud earlier this year.
And does this not once again illustrate the overwhelming importance of our government oversight agencies—the need for them to be healthy, independent, and well funded—not have their budgets slashed, their independence compromised, and their morale diminished.
4
So the German economic miracle is based on inventiveness, hard work, perseverance AND deceit. What always amazes me when scandals of this magnitude are revealed is just how reckless and stupid some people in power are for thinking they will never get caught. Decisions like this don't usually come down to one individual in a corporation the size of VW but reflect a culture of arrogance and greed within management to succeed at any cost. This VW revelation should send shudders through corporations around the globe but sadly it won't change a thing until the next shoe drops in some other company.
4
If VW was hoping for Americans to start buying diesels, they can kiss that idea goodbye. This episode is going down in automotive legend.
5
My mother made me promise to never drive a Volkswagen because during WW2 she was forced to work as a slave laborer in a VW plant.
Now I have another reason.
Now I have another reason.
6
Events like this occur when bigger profits are more important then the moral compass . We are all tempted to cheat at one time or another. Its just when doing what's "right" gets in the way of what feels good for me at the moment goes astray because of greed and corrupt soul. We are a depraved people left to our own devices.
3
I can't get over this. This is the equivalent of a corporate homicide. Where we had a manslaughter with the gulf oil spill, now we have a premeditated murder. Throw the book at 'em.
3
Huh? Who died?
1
"premeditated murder"?
Who died?
Who died?
1
Anyone who turns in their high performing, high mileage car to get "fixed" is a fool.
Obviously the Environmentalist Dream of a fast, efficient, zero emissions fantasy car is busted. If you've got one of these beauties, hang on to it.
Obviously the Environmentalist Dream of a fast, efficient, zero emissions fantasy car is busted. If you've got one of these beauties, hang on to it.
3
Can't decide if it's shocking or painfully ironic that you live in Houston, one of the smog capitals of our country, and are advocating that folks just keep on polluting. I presume you also think climate change isn't proven by science.....
3
One VW ad that you will not see again is the one where the elderly ladies hang on for dear life as the driver demonstrates how a diesel car can perform by rocketing around an empty parking lot. We now know how VW did it.
Too bad that VW decided to waste all this brain power coming up with illegal software instead of using it to advance alternative clean automotive technologies.
Too bad that VW decided to waste all this brain power coming up with illegal software instead of using it to advance alternative clean automotive technologies.
3
If those old ladies are anything like my grandma, I am sure that they would think the car was going too fast no matter what.
With this in mind, everyone receiving a red-light camera or speed camera ticket should request a hearing which includes an end-to-end review of the software that detected the violation.
2
This comment makes no sense. The emissions levels have nothing to do with actual speed, or whether someone went through a red light.
1
My comment was not intended to be specific to the emissions issue with the 11 million vehicles. It was intended to highlight the authoritative roles given to automated processes which either comply with laws (such as in the VW case), or are used to enforce the law, and that they have the potential to operate outside the law, intentionally in some instances.
Notwithstanding 11M of the smartest cars on the planet, I look forward to more of this as a minority of legislative eco-terrorists continue destroying the economies of our productive nations.
1
Did anyone at VW even ask a US lawyer what would happen if it came out that the company gamed the pollution test?
Lawyers will swarm over VW like army ants on the corpse of an elephant.
Lawyers will swarm over VW like army ants on the corpse of an elephant.
2
A big hurray for the EPA, the West Virginia University researchers, and the California Air Resources Board investigators for uncovering this fraud. Well done.
5
So, this fraud was discovered by the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA). One government agency that republicans want to abolish and are offended by its existence.
11
It is time to ban the sale of VWs for the next ten years as punishment for this deception. This was no accident or casual use of data, but a deliberate, underhanded deception to make people think they were buying a better product than they received.
How long will it take them to fix 500,000 cars? The users are going to be disappointed with the results. They will not have the power or gas mileage they were promised. All these cars now lost value for resale. Are the drivers going to be compensated for that?
VW has bad history. It was started under the guidance of Hitler. It's time the company disappeared. It just won't happen though.
How long will it take them to fix 500,000 cars? The users are going to be disappointed with the results. They will not have the power or gas mileage they were promised. All these cars now lost value for resale. Are the drivers going to be compensated for that?
VW has bad history. It was started under the guidance of Hitler. It's time the company disappeared. It just won't happen though.
6
I have to questions: 1. Are other car companies doing this same thing (it's hard to believe that only one company on earth had this idea). 2. With 11,000,000 vehicles effected how does VW think that 6,000,000,000 will cover the costs? That amounts to about $500 per vehicle, hardly enough to do much of anything to correct the problem. I could see customers demanding their entire purchase price refunded, along with punative damages. EPA, and the EU equivalent will want fines (I could see thousands of$ per vehicle at least).
2
Sure. How many innocent employees at dealers should be put out of work?
I have one question: Does this mean that the car won't meet smog standards in California? Please post the answer if you know.
3
I don't think those cars will pass a smog test in Mexico. Even with a bribe.
1
Yes. California standards are more stringent that rest of the country and these cars do even meet the US standards outside of CA. Unless you can find a way to keep the pollution control software turned on all the time (probably not that difficult to do). But then your torque, acceleration, and fuel efficiency will suffer. Rock and a hard place.
It will pass the smog testing, because during the test it runs differently than while not under test, but it doesn't actually meet emissions standards in California or any other state.
3
A friend of mine who owns one of these affected diesel cars brought up an interesting angle -- he did LOTS of research before deciding on buying this particular vehicle. It was between a VW and a Prius for him -- so he wonders how many others chose VW over Prius -- and how do you compensate Prius and other car companies for their lost sales?
Will VW pay them, too?
Will VW pay them, too?
6
Toyota and other car makers can make this argument with the EPA and ask them to compel VW to offer a buy-back option to current owners, so they can use that cash to go and buy whatever brand of car they want.
1
Until some of these execs get some serious jail time, let the buyer beware.
3
Interesting that VW is trying to fix a problem that was intentionally created. This wasn't an accident in design but was programmed into the vehicles with the intention of deceiving. So since corporations are considered citizens (think Citizens United and Lobby Hobby) isn't it appropriate for VW to be prosecuted for fraud and the senior executives held accountable. Allowing VW to hide behind the corporate veil is totally inappropriate. Somehow screwing the stockholders out of a half year's profits to cover the problem that executive management intentionally created is simply wrong.
5
When considering the purchase of a VW TDI Sportwagen last summer, I carefully assessed the car's utility, comfort, and performance--including the fuel efficiency and supposedly moderate emissions of the "clean diesel" engine--before taking the plunge. I got what I thought was a great deal on a lightly used 2011 TDI in July of 2014 and had been very satisfied with my purchase...until now. While I never deluded myself into believing that I was somehow saving the planet by driving a combustion engine vehicle, even a TDI, I did consider my choice a responsible one given the limited number of suitable options that met my specific needs.
To know that my car has spewed as much as 40 times the amount of nitrogen oxide emissions permitted by law, is deeply troubling. Denver's ozone problem is bad enough and I hate to think I've contributed many times "my share" during the past year of driving. Compounded by the fact that I stand to lose considerably on my investment, I can only hope that justice is served: VW should take full responsibility for its actions by: correcting the problem quickly and completely, paying all requisite fines for environmental damage caused, and compensating all TDI customers for the fraud and financial loss they have suffered.
To know that my car has spewed as much as 40 times the amount of nitrogen oxide emissions permitted by law, is deeply troubling. Denver's ozone problem is bad enough and I hate to think I've contributed many times "my share" during the past year of driving. Compounded by the fact that I stand to lose considerably on my investment, I can only hope that justice is served: VW should take full responsibility for its actions by: correcting the problem quickly and completely, paying all requisite fines for environmental damage caused, and compensating all TDI customers for the fraud and financial loss they have suffered.
6
In my previous life before I moved to management, I actually worked on software development, testing and application for diesel engines performance and emissions.
It is actually quite easy to program test-defeating subroutines in the software. The subroutine switches key mappings... and suddenly your engine is a marvel of clean emissions.
A small team of "fraudster" engineers could easily release a software version that includes "shadow maps" and test detection algorithms, without the engineers responsible for mapping the individual functions ever knowing.
But... The integration engineer that puts together and manages the entire SW must know - it's impossible that the deceptive maps and algorithms would go unnoticed. And his boss would have to know, as he would be signing off the SW release. And since this is still a middle manager, no way he'd ever pull such a stunt (including hundreds of engineering hours billed to the project) without the support of senior management, all the way up the chain of command to the technical director, product director, and CEO.
Last but not the least: often the engine management computers and software are built by external suppliers (I could name a couple huge companies): the supplier MUST have been in on the game, because he builds the logical framework of the software on VW's specifications.
I think this thing will hit a lot of people and a lot of companies in the auto industry value chain, VW is just the tip of the iceberg.
It is actually quite easy to program test-defeating subroutines in the software. The subroutine switches key mappings... and suddenly your engine is a marvel of clean emissions.
A small team of "fraudster" engineers could easily release a software version that includes "shadow maps" and test detection algorithms, without the engineers responsible for mapping the individual functions ever knowing.
But... The integration engineer that puts together and manages the entire SW must know - it's impossible that the deceptive maps and algorithms would go unnoticed. And his boss would have to know, as he would be signing off the SW release. And since this is still a middle manager, no way he'd ever pull such a stunt (including hundreds of engineering hours billed to the project) without the support of senior management, all the way up the chain of command to the technical director, product director, and CEO.
Last but not the least: often the engine management computers and software are built by external suppliers (I could name a couple huge companies): the supplier MUST have been in on the game, because he builds the logical framework of the software on VW's specifications.
I think this thing will hit a lot of people and a lot of companies in the auto industry value chain, VW is just the tip of the iceberg.
67
I anticipate future Manchurian vehicles which can detect a driver who is an environmental hypocrite, watch out.
EMCs for VW were built by BOSCH, they already admitted with the statement 'according to the specifications of VW'.
The fix will be to retrofit the cars with urea injection. Performance will be unchanged.
Who makes certain that owners of diesel cars with urea injectors refill them when they run out?
Who makes certain that owners of diesel cars with urea injectors refill them when they run out?
These cars already have urea injection. In at least one VW model that I'm aware of, there's a little urea tank in the trunk. VW recommends that the owner get it refilled every 10,00 miles. If the tank goes empty, the car won't start.
1
My 2014 Jetta Sportwagen TDI has no urea injection system.
My 2013 TDI Passat does. And gets 46 miles per gallon on the highway.
Fellow VW owners: Let's not allow them any "solution" short of buying back our cars: we are otherwise on the hook for their deliberately deceptive, unethical, back-breaking (for some) ruse. Our cars will never be worth what they should be; our mileage likely will never be as good as what we have enjoyed; our turbos will not produce the same performance we have grown accustomed to wielding. Anything less than this option, for us, could be seen as the product of inadequate representation and a financial penalty, a health hazard and safety risk we will otherwise be expected to sheepishly allow (watch the fine print when you get your "fix"!).
Let them buy back our cars and then the government (EPA) can have at them for what's left on the bones.
Let them buy back our cars and then the government (EPA) can have at them for what's left on the bones.
5
I will have to say that as the owner of two Volkswagens (although neither of them diesels) I am EXTREMELY disappointed in VW. Considering the interconnected nature of all the engineering that goes into a modern internal combustion engine that there was no conceivable way that this deception could have been carried out in a vacuum and the fact that they denied the issue for a good year after it was first discovered gives one pause as to the sincerity of the CEO's apology.
Here's what needs to happen:
1. Apology by Volkswagen.
2. Government investigation.
3. Refunds for the premium paid by customers who bought these cars and paid extra for the "clean" technology (they cost more than gasoline cars).
4. Refunds to the Federal Government of the tax credits it paid to consumers for buying Clean Diesel VW's when they first came out (similar to Hybrids).
5. Punitive regulatory fines to VW.
6. Criminal charges for the managers/executives who ordered the deceitful design of the software.
Beyond that, let's keep it in perspective: the cars are safe. There are no exploding gas tanks, failing ignition switches, etc. I own one of these cars. It is just as reliable and safe today as it was yesterday, even if I am disappointed that it is not as clean as it should be.
1. Apology by Volkswagen.
2. Government investigation.
3. Refunds for the premium paid by customers who bought these cars and paid extra for the "clean" technology (they cost more than gasoline cars).
4. Refunds to the Federal Government of the tax credits it paid to consumers for buying Clean Diesel VW's when they first came out (similar to Hybrids).
5. Punitive regulatory fines to VW.
6. Criminal charges for the managers/executives who ordered the deceitful design of the software.
Beyond that, let's keep it in perspective: the cars are safe. There are no exploding gas tanks, failing ignition switches, etc. I own one of these cars. It is just as reliable and safe today as it was yesterday, even if I am disappointed that it is not as clean as it should be.
5
I'm sure they can all be sold 'as is' to drivers in Red China. What's a little more soot in the air over Chinese Cities ? Who'd even notice ?
Curious. Why is an apology necessary? Would it even matter?
1
This is a very large criminal issue between one of the world's former trusted capitalist icons and the customers and public it has cheated. Illegal dumping of waste into the atmosphere is no better than Mafiosi illegally dumping garbage into the sea for profit.
7
Privatize the profits, socialize the costs.
There will be well-deserved lawsuits and eight or nine-figure fines. But talk of the fines extending into the billions of dollars seems ironic - just last week, Federal prosecutors declined to prosecute anyone, and fined GM "only" $900 million, for it having known about and consciously covered up its ignition problem that killed many people. Excessive pollution is surely a bad thing, but it is hard to imagine prosecutors seeking a greater penalty for smog than for multiple homicide.
2
It seems to be the case that this was a conscious and concerted effort on the part of VW top management and a very great number of employees to take the absurd risk that a major fraud could be carried out. Never mind that the diesels deemed to be environmentally-friendly were spewing huge amounts of pollutants into the atmosphere--who cares! Never mind that every person who purchased one of these diesels was being duped. The scale of this is simply mind-boggling, even, perhaps, outdoing the monumental cupidity and fraudulence of the bad mortgage loans. Doubtless it would have a great impact on workers, shareholders, and many others: but for something on this scale, VW should be dismantled, broken up, and its top management sent to prison.
4
Every employee who had a hand in this should face retribution. But should every employee be put out of work? Should every (public) shareholder bear more cost than they already have (or will ) for something they had no part in?
Takes a lot to shock me in today's world and do not like to portray myself as naive, but this absolutely floored me. A major, credible, highly respected automobile company like Volkswagon deliberately misleads -- both their consumers and governmental testing regulators. Volkswagon has put aside more than $7 billion to correct this, but the cost to their reputation and integrity cannot be measured in dollars -- or deutsche marks.
5
Technically, oxides of nitrogen are much more benign than the EPA was willing to admit according studies presented to the public back in the late 1970s. That evidence applied to both smog as well as direct biological effects. I haven't followed the studies recently.
Breaking the law is unacceptable and demands serious consequences; over hyping evidence by environmentalists has been rampant and while not as unacceptable, has serious consequences of making automobiles more inefficient contributing to increased greenhouse gas emissions. Regulated NOX pollution levels have been a prime offender.
BTW, this also applies to nuclear energy.
Breaking the law is unacceptable and demands serious consequences; over hyping evidence by environmentalists has been rampant and while not as unacceptable, has serious consequences of making automobiles more inefficient contributing to increased greenhouse gas emissions. Regulated NOX pollution levels have been a prime offender.
BTW, this also applies to nuclear energy.
You should look up the data since the 1970's. There are now lots of studies establishing a very clear link between oxides of nitrogen (and other deisel combustion products) and adverse health consequences. It seems the EPA was more prescient than you gave them credit for
1
There has been a lot more data since then, and there is no doubt.
It is not the 70s any more. We now have facts that make regulation a pressing need and priority.
It is not the 70s any more. We now have facts that make regulation a pressing need and priority.
1
Bring back the Yugo! At least we knew what we were getting.
1
Really let down. I owned a VW beetle in 2001. Traded it in for a Toyota Prius cuz it always had a gas leak. Loved the prius, but felt just the battery was wasteful and then it had that brake issue--felt that Toyota went downhill to save money, so I bought a 2015 golf TDI a year ago. Was such an obvious purchase, felt too good to be true. But really the diesel emission clean burning fuel and performance was why i switched from Toyota to VW. (also their in house customer service at VW was v good). Anyway, i am beyond disappointed albeit a first world problem. For me to stay with VW, the only thing they could do to make me stick with a VW would be do allow me to trade it in as new when they finally figure this diesel issue out for a new VW. We all know that unless a miracle happens in engineering the recall to repair will effect either the performance, fuel efficiency or torque--so it won't be the same car from a motor perspective, so THIS IS FRAUD. FRAUD. Shame on VW. it you were sold a fraudulent item, you would be allowed to get a refund or a credit. VW should allow us to trade our cars in.
5
VW 'regrets' their use of software to bypass emission regulations. Their only regret I think is that they got caught.
VW should be required to buy back every car or fix them at the owner's option. Consumer Reports chose the Golf as the car of the year too.
VW should be required to buy back every car or fix them at the owner's option. Consumer Reports chose the Golf as the car of the year too.
5
They secretly provided an alternate engine control program optimized to pass a particular test cycle when the engine control computer detects that it is under test.
A lot of Volkswagen employees had to know about this fraud - the designers, the people who made the parts, the testers, the managers and executives. We know that it's virtually impossible for a lot of people to keep a particular secret - somebody always reveals it, even if inadvertently.
So I'm wondering how VW managed to keep this fraud secret for so long without anybody blowing it. How is that even possible? Even though VW is admitting the fraud, something still doesn't ring true to me.
So I'm wondering how VW managed to keep this fraud secret for so long without anybody blowing it. How is that even possible? Even though VW is admitting the fraud, something still doesn't ring true to me.
3
It was easy to keep this secret. They purchased the code from outside the company, minimizing the number of people who knew and they put the code into production with the help of the person responsible for ECU quality control. A lot of people could go to jail and should go to jail, but this is the United States and we let corporate criminals walk. This is a massive criminal conspiracy, but money talks.
1
It was probably cultural resentment that regulators don't give credit against NOX emission for slashing CO2 emission. The latter persists in the atmosphere far longer than the former.
Where in the world was the work actually done?
So,eb Bush wants to give us 'economic growth' by cutting regulations? Jeb Bush should be asked whether EPA calling out Volkswagen for cheating on emissions controls constitutes 'over-regulation.'
If not, then what is Jeb Bush talking about, when he says cutting regulations will give us 4 percent annual economic growth?
If not, then what is Jeb Bush talking about, when he says cutting regulations will give us 4 percent annual economic growth?
6
I think Jeb would argue that if regulation was working, how come VW was able to sell these cars for 6 years before the EPA figured it out?
2
So you don't see any issue with the EPA using personal email to hide information from Congress during Congressional hearings regarding their lawless activities? You don't see any issue with the EPA admitting that their illegal regulations under Obama (not passed by Congress therefore any regulation not approved by Congress is illegal) will not make any impact to combat their war on climate change and will sky rocket energy costs? Why is the left so trustworthy of the government that is wildly inefficient and so down on the private sector that creates jobs and gives us an actual economy? Everybody is commenting saying this is why we need more and more regulations yet nobody calls for regulations on the very people creating regulations for everybody else. Barely anybody at the EPA is qualified to make regulations yet nobody questions their knowledge or intentions. Wake up left. The private sector is not as bad as you want it to be and the government isn't as innocent and rosy as you wish it to be.
1
This is a crime against humanity.
We have owned Volkswagens since 1996. I don't know if any of our current cars (a Golf and a Scirocco, both diesel) are affected but we will never buy a VW again.
The company is too arrogant with too much market power - almost 25% market share in Europe. It should be broken up and the entire senior management team should be fired, prosecuted and, if found guilty, jailed.
We have owned Volkswagens since 1996. I don't know if any of our current cars (a Golf and a Scirocco, both diesel) are affected but we will never buy a VW again.
The company is too arrogant with too much market power - almost 25% market share in Europe. It should be broken up and the entire senior management team should be fired, prosecuted and, if found guilty, jailed.
4
I just bought a 2010 Golf TDI two week ago (woe is me!) after having driven a 2001 Jetta TDI for 15 years and I couldn't beleive how much more power from the newer Golf. How did VW do it I wondered....and now I know. And now my car is worth a fraction of what I paid for it two weeks ago!
3
If you were planning to drive it for 15 years (or 10), it being worth less doesn't really matter.
2
"Ask" them to recall? Should be a demand. Then fine them for deliberate and continuing fraud ($5,000/vehicle sounds about right - it needs to be punitive.) Then require they buy back (at full purchase price including tax and what not) all vehicles or at least offer that to the owners since they were sold fraudulently and require all vehicles not bought back to fully comply with emissions - no opting out by the owners. Then we talk criminal punishment for those responsible, from the CEO down to the engineers.....5-20 years sounds about right.
Anything less, and it's just a "cost of doing business."
Anything less, and it's just a "cost of doing business."
3
Quite a few readers seem confused about various elements of the VW scandal. To address some of the concerns mentioned:
1. An automotive defect is usually the result of accident. VW's actions, however, constitute what can only be a highly elaborate, multinational conspiracy specifically intended to con both government regulators and consumers. It's unambiguous mass-level fraud, and one that yielded billions of dollars in revenue for its perpetrators. (The closest modern comparison would likely be the Enron scandal.)
2. There is no mere "software fix" to correct the problem. While yes, VW dealers could reprogram its engine software to, in effect, remain in "emissions-test mode" all the time, the result would almost certainly be an unknown-for-now but unacceptably huge drop in fuel economy and/or engine power.
3. This entire problem was avoidable. Most "clean diesel" vehicles -- and to be clear, numerous automakers sell bona fide ones -- have urea tanks. The urea removes most of the nitrogen oxide -- one of the worst greenhouse gases -- in diesel-engine exhaust. However, urea tanks require extra maintenance hassle and expense, which is likely a key reason why VW elected to (falsely) claim its engines didn't need it.
4. Just to give you an idea of the seriousness of the problem: the EPA could literally impound and destroy every affected vehicle, if it so chose. In their current state, the cars are wildly out of compliance with emissions requirements under the Clean Air Act.
1. An automotive defect is usually the result of accident. VW's actions, however, constitute what can only be a highly elaborate, multinational conspiracy specifically intended to con both government regulators and consumers. It's unambiguous mass-level fraud, and one that yielded billions of dollars in revenue for its perpetrators. (The closest modern comparison would likely be the Enron scandal.)
2. There is no mere "software fix" to correct the problem. While yes, VW dealers could reprogram its engine software to, in effect, remain in "emissions-test mode" all the time, the result would almost certainly be an unknown-for-now but unacceptably huge drop in fuel economy and/or engine power.
3. This entire problem was avoidable. Most "clean diesel" vehicles -- and to be clear, numerous automakers sell bona fide ones -- have urea tanks. The urea removes most of the nitrogen oxide -- one of the worst greenhouse gases -- in diesel-engine exhaust. However, urea tanks require extra maintenance hassle and expense, which is likely a key reason why VW elected to (falsely) claim its engines didn't need it.
4. Just to give you an idea of the seriousness of the problem: the EPA could literally impound and destroy every affected vehicle, if it so chose. In their current state, the cars are wildly out of compliance with emissions requirements under the Clean Air Act.
13
Many will spend time in prison, and huge amounts of cash
will burn. I foresee a class action suit from the people that bought
these type of engines, more burned up cash. It could take VW
a decade to pull out of this nose dive. Karma, you reap what you
sow.
will burn. I foresee a class action suit from the people that bought
these type of engines, more burned up cash. It could take VW
a decade to pull out of this nose dive. Karma, you reap what you
sow.
2
"Many will spend time in prison, ..."
Really? I doubt that anyone will go to prison, except maybe a sacrificial middle manager or techie.
Really? I doubt that anyone will go to prison, except maybe a sacrificial middle manager or techie.
This is an appalling situation, given that this was an intentional flouting of emissions requirements, which had to be approved at the highest levels. Any repair of the issue will likely degrade the performance, fuel efficiency or reliability of the cars. A 40-fold increase in emissions is any enormous amount, one that would make a huge difference in the performance of the vehicle.
The only fair solution is to offer a buy-back program for every one of these vehicles, which could quite likely bankrupt the company. In the meantime, there should be a huge corporate fine for VW, and a criminal fraud investigation for those involved. It is simply inexcusable, and an incredible disappointment.
The only fair solution is to offer a buy-back program for every one of these vehicles, which could quite likely bankrupt the company. In the meantime, there should be a huge corporate fine for VW, and a criminal fraud investigation for those involved. It is simply inexcusable, and an incredible disappointment.
2
So it's not just the Democrats that cheat and lie! Who knew?
I wouldn't say that before we find out what the Democrat Attorney General does about this.
Will she actually call for people to be indicted or will it be the same old fine them and back to business as usual?
Will she actually call for people to be indicted or will it be the same old fine them and back to business as usual?
I bought a lemon Rabbit many years ago. Turned me off to Volkswagen for ever. They had all sorts of explanations about the phenomenon that I was experiencing, but a piston with it's valves hitting the encasement should not be one of them, but there it was. It was not a mudder either. Hit a puddle and the engine cut out. Hmmmm! German engineering built for America. Now, we see that they are just jerking our chain, from 2009, and what will we do about it? Well, we were asleep or they gassed us. Take your pick. At a minimum, we need to make things right for the people who purchased the vehicles, and second we should fine Volkswagen big time, and 3rd? There needs to be something else. Should they be allowed to trade here, after intentionally manipulating their vehicles? I don't think so. They need to be banned. We can not be correcting all the time. We need to be preventing.
2
While this is a big deal, why is it that the Justice Department decides to show its muscle against a foreign automaker (where no deaths were involved) and essentially lets a domestic manufacturer (GM) literally get away with murder with barely a slap on the wrist? (Remember, the $900 million Get-Out-Jail payoff is taxpayer and shareholder money.) This smells like corporate protectionism to me.
3
It seems incredible, but, according to another story, authorities only discovered this violation by blind luck. It's mind-blowing to me that regulators don't do routine on-the-street emissions measurements of all vehicles lines.
And, sure, car buyers got ripped off. But how about all the people breathing out there, some of whom will suffer respiratory troubles because of VW's greed. Will VW go out and vaccuum up their illegal pollutants?
And, sure, car buyers got ripped off. But how about all the people breathing out there, some of whom will suffer respiratory troubles because of VW's greed. Will VW go out and vaccuum up their illegal pollutants?
2
never really trusted any German auto, but now never ever will consider one. I own a Porshe, but will never ever buy a German car again
1
Too big to fail?
If forced into worldwide recall, how could VW survive? They don't have the equity to support an equipment modification or, more likely, buybacks. Will Germany back them financially as the US did GM?
As an owner of one of the affected vehicles, the mix of emotion wrapped up in this story is hard to describe. Certainly a strong mix of deception, fraud, disappointment and disillusion at least. I don't want to say what I feel at most...
If forced into worldwide recall, how could VW survive? They don't have the equity to support an equipment modification or, more likely, buybacks. Will Germany back them financially as the US did GM?
As an owner of one of the affected vehicles, the mix of emotion wrapped up in this story is hard to describe. Certainly a strong mix of deception, fraud, disappointment and disillusion at least. I don't want to say what I feel at most...
3
feel exact same way. I own a golf tdi 2015.
Many many thanks to the regulatory agencies that caught this and pursued it. And to the press for reporting it. Perhaps the vehicles of the other manufacturers should also be checked for this sort of finagling.
People argue for jail time and even the death penalty on the idea that it deters future crime. Logically, then, we need severe penalties including jail time to deter corporate crime. When their cars are emitting 40 times the allowed amount, Volkswagen has been damaging the health of millions of people. If their emissions alone have shortened lives (a question for medical experts to answer) then their crime is far worse than that of the small-time drug user who is in jail with a long mandatory minimum sentence. The unfairness is galling.
People argue for jail time and even the death penalty on the idea that it deters future crime. Logically, then, we need severe penalties including jail time to deter corporate crime. When their cars are emitting 40 times the allowed amount, Volkswagen has been damaging the health of millions of people. If their emissions alone have shortened lives (a question for medical experts to answer) then their crime is far worse than that of the small-time drug user who is in jail with a long mandatory minimum sentence. The unfairness is galling.
One very important detail missing from this discussion is the development of crazy EPA requirements on diesel vehicles over the last 6-7 years. As one of the only car companies really selling diesel cars in the US, the regulations are/were a deathblow to a company trying to sell them. I work for a diesel equipment manufacturer, and the quickly changing requirements force us to re-design engines every two years, and finagle with EPA engine credits in order to be allowed to sell machines. Each time we have to redesign the engines, they cost more; a typical engine cost has doubled for us. An engine's cost that was $5000 is now well over $10000. We are in an industry that only uses diesel engines, so everybody has been forced to increase their prices which then still allows for fair competition. VW's diesel segment is competing with gas engines which were already significantly cheaper to make.
Not that VW's actions are excusable, by any means, but they would've been forced to raise the price on the diesel vehicles soo much they may as well have dropped them altogether. This is a result of sweeping regulations that are carelessly implemented forcing a company to either cheat and compete, or quit.
Not that VW's actions are excusable, by any means, but they would've been forced to raise the price on the diesel vehicles soo much they may as well have dropped them altogether. This is a result of sweeping regulations that are carelessly implemented forcing a company to either cheat and compete, or quit.
3
They were not competing. There was virtually no competition for passenger diesels here in the US. A few manufacturers tried to create engines for that passenger car segment but couldn't meet the emissions requirements to bring out a competing product.
The high dollar cost of making clean small displacement diesel means that only premium brands can do this.
And, let's be frank here, the times are changing. Stringent emissions requirements are one thing we have to adjust to and eventually those requirement will make certain old technologies too costly to keep producing. Diesel engines may need to be confined to applications that make them somewhat more palatable. Gasoline engines are probably not far behind either. We do not live in the same world as 50 years ago.
The high dollar cost of making clean small displacement diesel means that only premium brands can do this.
And, let's be frank here, the times are changing. Stringent emissions requirements are one thing we have to adjust to and eventually those requirement will make certain old technologies too costly to keep producing. Diesel engines may need to be confined to applications that make them somewhat more palatable. Gasoline engines are probably not far behind either. We do not live in the same world as 50 years ago.
Oh dear, what an embarrassment!
And here was I (and millions of my fellow Germans) thinking we had finally cracked the holy grail of Clean Diesel. But no, it turns out they cheated!
Now, looking at the market pressures in relation to BMW, Mercedes etc. which ALSO advertise similar low fuel consumption and emissions one has to ask (shyly...) whether at least these companies are really "clean" or whether the concept of cheating this way has wandered from company to company, maybe by way of some engineer or mid-level manager. If that were the case the German Auto industry would be kaput, dead, RIP, buried, forgotten. Oh dear!
But there are other aspects I'd like to get more information on. For example: why did this come out exactly while the IAA in Frankfurt was going on, not a month earlier or later? And how (if at all) does the power-struggle at the top (Piech vs. Winterkorn) fit into this? Is it possible that someone ratted VW out to the EPA? I know this investigation had been going on for some time but the timing of recent events makes me wonder...
Anyway: Apologies from me to the world too, this is not how Germany is supposed to operate!
And here was I (and millions of my fellow Germans) thinking we had finally cracked the holy grail of Clean Diesel. But no, it turns out they cheated!
Now, looking at the market pressures in relation to BMW, Mercedes etc. which ALSO advertise similar low fuel consumption and emissions one has to ask (shyly...) whether at least these companies are really "clean" or whether the concept of cheating this way has wandered from company to company, maybe by way of some engineer or mid-level manager. If that were the case the German Auto industry would be kaput, dead, RIP, buried, forgotten. Oh dear!
But there are other aspects I'd like to get more information on. For example: why did this come out exactly while the IAA in Frankfurt was going on, not a month earlier or later? And how (if at all) does the power-struggle at the top (Piech vs. Winterkorn) fit into this? Is it possible that someone ratted VW out to the EPA? I know this investigation had been going on for some time but the timing of recent events makes me wonder...
Anyway: Apologies from me to the world too, this is not how Germany is supposed to operate!
4
But you are taking in refugees. So that's good.
1
New German Refugee Plan: House them in recalled VW diesels
CARB and EPA were not getting some clean (excuse the pun) answers from VW for a year.
And it so happened that the EPA also had a request to certify the 2016 TDIs. So that forced the issue to the forefront.
There were no good options, or controlled way of managing this deception. If they had any plan from 2005 on what to do when they were discovered, that is anyone's guess what that was. Then, there was a 12-month period where they were getting inquiries from CARB. So, one has to wonder if they at least prepared to deal with the eventual outbreak during that 12 month period.
You are much closer to the beer gardens in lower saxony ;) so perhaps you can find out more ... ;)
And it so happened that the EPA also had a request to certify the 2016 TDIs. So that forced the issue to the forefront.
There were no good options, or controlled way of managing this deception. If they had any plan from 2005 on what to do when they were discovered, that is anyone's guess what that was. Then, there was a 12-month period where they were getting inquiries from CARB. So, one has to wonder if they at least prepared to deal with the eventual outbreak during that 12 month period.
You are much closer to the beer gardens in lower saxony ;) so perhaps you can find out more ... ;)
After VW pays fines to the US government and the State of California, I'd be somewhat satisfied if VW would provide a truly emissions compliant fix to my Jetta SportWagen TDI without a loss of performance and only a slight decline in fuel economy. That may mean putting in a new engine on their part (140 HP at the moment). Barring that, they should do a full recall (take all the cars back) and refund owners the full original cost of the car, plus fines for duping us with false advertising and marketing. Beyond that, my car is probably the last VW I will ever buy.
If VW cannot adequately fix the emissions on these cars, and are forced to repossess them, what will VW do with all the used TDIs that they may have to buy back? Probably sell them at a huge discount to dealers in countries in Africa, Asia, and Central America that have less stringent emissions standards.
If VW cannot adequately fix the emissions on these cars, and are forced to repossess them, what will VW do with all the used TDIs that they may have to buy back? Probably sell them at a huge discount to dealers in countries in Africa, Asia, and Central America that have less stringent emissions standards.
5
Purposeful fraud is obviously not limited to Wall Street banks.
This deliberate deception is a crime against the planet, democracy, and the people's ability to regulate their air. VW should be held responsible not only for recalls and "fines" but also for DAMAGES to people's health. VW's defense lawyers will say that we cannot prove whether "marginally more" emissions from VW's caused a particular child's asthma or respiratory disease. Corporations and their defense lawyers will hide their crimes behind causation, because so many different emissions cause damages to so many people.
This is the government's opportunity to step in and create superfunds for PEOPLE who have health problems from dirty air. The government shouldn't alone collect "fines" from VW. The people most adversely affected should be paid as well for VW's fraud and further emissions.
The only "tort reform" we really need is removing "causation" from the calculation to prove damages. Too many corporations hide behind the science knowing how hard it is for underfunded and injured people to prove the corporation's responsibility for their ailment.
This deliberate deception is a crime against the planet, democracy, and the people's ability to regulate their air. VW should be held responsible not only for recalls and "fines" but also for DAMAGES to people's health. VW's defense lawyers will say that we cannot prove whether "marginally more" emissions from VW's caused a particular child's asthma or respiratory disease. Corporations and their defense lawyers will hide their crimes behind causation, because so many different emissions cause damages to so many people.
This is the government's opportunity to step in and create superfunds for PEOPLE who have health problems from dirty air. The government shouldn't alone collect "fines" from VW. The people most adversely affected should be paid as well for VW's fraud and further emissions.
The only "tort reform" we really need is removing "causation" from the calculation to prove damages. Too many corporations hide behind the science knowing how hard it is for underfunded and injured people to prove the corporation's responsibility for their ailment.
2
The company must be destroyed. The car should be banned from the US and if not feasible, anyone buying a VW from this day forth should be socially shunned, like they used to do with lepers.
1
The VW decision-makers for this criminal behavior (starting at the top) should be prosecuted and spend a long time on the government dole for food, clothing, medical care and housing ... in a prison. (Hopefully, VW would not provide any of these criminals with a severance package.)
In addition to the cost of correcting this crime and the deserved loss of sales (and profit), VW's fine should exceed the profit on the involved VW vehicles by a factor of at least 5 so that the owners of VW (and of other corporations) will see that while white collar chime has paid well (Profits exceeding fines by a wide margin) in the past, white collar crime will cost the corporations (and stockholders) dearly in the future, so it will be in the owners interest to monitor their execs closely to ferret out the white collar criminals and to reward honesty.
In addition to the cost of correcting this crime and the deserved loss of sales (and profit), VW's fine should exceed the profit on the involved VW vehicles by a factor of at least 5 so that the owners of VW (and of other corporations) will see that while white collar chime has paid well (Profits exceeding fines by a wide margin) in the past, white collar crime will cost the corporations (and stockholders) dearly in the future, so it will be in the owners interest to monitor their execs closely to ferret out the white collar criminals and to reward honesty.
1
The depth and extent of this corruption in German engineering is profoundly dispiriting. The corruption is moral and ethical and cultural and social. It required collusion among many people and groups. It required a contempt for human well being on a global scale. It required an utter shutting down of conscience. It's very difficult to see how all of this can be addressed. This is certainly a criminal event on a global scale. It is especially dispiriting for those of us who are admirers of German engineering and of German social and political leadership in recent years.
1
What other software does VW use in its cars? I find it just a bit too convenient that something happens to the car that requires me to bring it in to the VW dealer at exactly the point of schedule maintenance. Or, why does the catalytic converters go out at 85,000, just 5,000 miles after the 80,000 mile warranty expires. It's $2K per converter to replace. Plus, as with all autos, the systems are so contained and specialized now, it requires dealer repairs. Talk about gaming the system.
1
We shelled out a small fortune for our TDI in 2010, when we were looking at the Prius as the other option. Hindsight, it turns out, is worth about $27,000. And that's where you can start, VW, with 11 million checks to owners like me for the purchase price. Then a select few of you can also go to jail with a 'clean diesel' conscience for the damage to our air.
1
A total boycott of all VW products is called for. The company must destroyed. Pure evil. People power.
2
No flaming deaths resulted, right? Just massive fraud and noxious pollution. If vw gets ahead of the story there's still time to re-brand these vehicles for the loud and sporty crowd.
2
The universally admired "Love Bug" is now going to turn into the "Hate Bug"?
How excessive greed can destroy many decades of good will in an instant.
Sad indeed.
How excessive greed can destroy many decades of good will in an instant.
Sad indeed.
2
It has nothing to do with greed, it's EPA regulations that put a manufacturer in a position to either cheat and keep selling the diesels, or stop selling them as the price increases would have rendered them useless. It's as simple as that.
Truly disgusting, but not at all surprising.
The real story should be that this is what most corporations do, not that VW is some sort of outlier.
I will never buy VW. Even before this story, their cars have very poor repair records. They ride quite well, but cost tons in repairs. After this story, there is zero chance I will ever trust these sick goons.
The real story should be that this is what most corporations do, not that VW is some sort of outlier.
I will never buy VW. Even before this story, their cars have very poor repair records. They ride quite well, but cost tons in repairs. After this story, there is zero chance I will ever trust these sick goons.
2
Begin criminal proceedings for poisoning the population.
2
Who would be stupid enough to take their call in for a recall that makes you get less mileage/performance and engine wears out faster?
I would still buy a VW over anything that GM puts out.
I would still buy a VW over anything that GM puts out.
3
umm, anybody that needs to get their registration renewed.
Just how the purchasers of these intentionally fraudulent vehicles are going to be made whole is far from clear.
* Is Volkswagen going to by back and destroy these vehicles and refund the full invoice price to the current owner?
* Is Volkswagen gong to replace the engines of these vehicles?
* Or Is Volkswagen going modify the software to degrade the performance of these vehicles and shorten their engine life and stick the customers with suddenly worthless vehicles that won't pass immersions tests a annual inspection.
Knowing how the automobile industry works I am betting on the latter.
If I owned one of these dogs I would not risk bringing it in for a firmware change until I was fully informed of the real implications of the programming change on engine performance and engine life.
The current owners will not be able to sell these cars so the only way they will get their investment back is to drive them into the ground. This is a pretty unattractive alternative for the environment.
Even buying them back at original invoice price and destroying them is unattractive environmentally. The largest part of the pollution load of a vehicle is expended during the manufacturing process and the recycling process.
Volkswagen has really created a monster with no good way out for anyone, if as I suspect it is not possible to make these engines perform as advertised because the advertised performance is in violation of the laws of physics and chemistry.
* Is Volkswagen going to by back and destroy these vehicles and refund the full invoice price to the current owner?
* Is Volkswagen gong to replace the engines of these vehicles?
* Or Is Volkswagen going modify the software to degrade the performance of these vehicles and shorten their engine life and stick the customers with suddenly worthless vehicles that won't pass immersions tests a annual inspection.
Knowing how the automobile industry works I am betting on the latter.
If I owned one of these dogs I would not risk bringing it in for a firmware change until I was fully informed of the real implications of the programming change on engine performance and engine life.
The current owners will not be able to sell these cars so the only way they will get their investment back is to drive them into the ground. This is a pretty unattractive alternative for the environment.
Even buying them back at original invoice price and destroying them is unattractive environmentally. The largest part of the pollution load of a vehicle is expended during the manufacturing process and the recycling process.
Volkswagen has really created a monster with no good way out for anyone, if as I suspect it is not possible to make these engines perform as advertised because the advertised performance is in violation of the laws of physics and chemistry.
2
As CrustyJusty's comment (most liked at this point) points out, this software trickery involved at least dozens of engineers, managers, technicians. Creating software that interacts with many parts in the car require reviews by many, even if just a few are involved in actually writing the code.
A manager (or CEO) decided to add this feature, someone wrote a todo item in Bugzilla/Jira/Confluence, and dozens of people went off and worked on this.
It wasn't a case of a handful of people passing around a bag of cash or anything like it. It involved dozens of educated, smart professionals at WORK doing their daily job. At VW. One of the best known German companies.
This is the story is so shocking.
A manager (or CEO) decided to add this feature, someone wrote a todo item in Bugzilla/Jira/Confluence, and dozens of people went off and worked on this.
It wasn't a case of a handful of people passing around a bag of cash or anything like it. It involved dozens of educated, smart professionals at WORK doing their daily job. At VW. One of the best known German companies.
This is the story is so shocking.
2
Another indictment of unbridled capitalism.
Without the US government entity, the EPA, these 40x increased nitrogen oxide levels probably never would have been discovered. Far worse consumer hazards, workplace safety issues, environmental disasters, and so on, would be our lot if not for strong government regulation and oversight.
Many corporations will do whatever they can to bypass safety, overcharge customers, take what is not theirs, and avoid paying taxes all to maximize profits. Corporations and their leaders need to be held accountable (including finance and investment firms) so that we have a society that works for all of us - not just the dishonest and greedy.
Without the US government entity, the EPA, these 40x increased nitrogen oxide levels probably never would have been discovered. Far worse consumer hazards, workplace safety issues, environmental disasters, and so on, would be our lot if not for strong government regulation and oversight.
Many corporations will do whatever they can to bypass safety, overcharge customers, take what is not theirs, and avoid paying taxes all to maximize profits. Corporations and their leaders need to be held accountable (including finance and investment firms) so that we have a society that works for all of us - not just the dishonest and greedy.
2
Megacorporations will do anything to make a buck. Time to nationalize the heaviest-polluting industries, because they cannot be trusted to put the future of our species ahead of next quarter's profits.
1
Yet another example of why we need more not less regulation of large corporations.
1
I am sorry that VW got caught. I will by one again and again. Sounds like american political correctness to me. What a stifling place the US has become.
3
Phil from Houston Texas huh? Of
Of course, Texas the heart of the Carbon Energy Industry and a state apparently with no environmental consciousness at all. So breaking the federal law is American Political Correctness is it? The US will and Texas will become a more stifling places as global climate change continues.
Of course, Texas the heart of the Carbon Energy Industry and a state apparently with no environmental consciousness at all. So breaking the federal law is American Political Correctness is it? The US will and Texas will become a more stifling places as global climate change continues.
Another genius comment from the formerly great state of Texas.
Oh GM, how relieved you must be. Off the hook. You only murdered 124 people (little people that do not count) but VW, just look at what they did!!
GM leaves center stage as VW now gets the spotlight.
Every large corporation knows full well that if they get "caught" the attention span of the world will only be on them for no more than two weeks. Hold fast for those two weeks and walk away laughing all the way to the bank!
GM leaves center stage as VW now gets the spotlight.
Every large corporation knows full well that if they get "caught" the attention span of the world will only be on them for no more than two weeks. Hold fast for those two weeks and walk away laughing all the way to the bank!
5
Clean diesel is just another fallacy consumers happily gobble up thanks to creative spin and thoughtful advertising.
4
For climate change enthusiasts: VW was actually reducing CO2 by increasing NOx.
As a former engine calibrator and current faculty member who teaches mechanical engineering, I am disappointed that the emission 'trade-off' that Volkswagen made has not been reported. NOx emissions move opposite to CO2 and particle emission. Volkswagen was breaking the law by creating more NOx and therefore producing less CO2 and particles. This strategy also causes less corrosion, since less exhaust is recirculated back in the system. Exhaust recirculation reduces combustion temperature and therefore reduces NOx, but this also causes corrosion because of moisture in the exhaust.
Yes, they broke the law. But the NOx limit itself should be re-examined. It's too stringent in the US, and this causes more CO2 and particle emissions (even with a diesel particulate filter). Europe take a more balanced approach, they have moderate NOx limits, but they also have particle number limits, something that the US does not have.
As a former engine calibrator and current faculty member who teaches mechanical engineering, I am disappointed that the emission 'trade-off' that Volkswagen made has not been reported. NOx emissions move opposite to CO2 and particle emission. Volkswagen was breaking the law by creating more NOx and therefore producing less CO2 and particles. This strategy also causes less corrosion, since less exhaust is recirculated back in the system. Exhaust recirculation reduces combustion temperature and therefore reduces NOx, but this also causes corrosion because of moisture in the exhaust.
Yes, they broke the law. But the NOx limit itself should be re-examined. It's too stringent in the US, and this causes more CO2 and particle emissions (even with a diesel particulate filter). Europe take a more balanced approach, they have moderate NOx limits, but they also have particle number limits, something that the US does not have.
3
Hmm. Deliberately installing something in the cars to cheat the law. The corporation will be paying a big price in dollars, OK. But some person decided to do this, it wasn't negligence. Someone (a real person not a "corporate"person) decided to break the law. Which real person is going to pay? I get the feeling the answer is no one.
3
A notable contrast with responsibility. GM kills 124 with faulty equipment: no one held legally responsible and $1 billion set aside for costs plus a Dept. of Justice fine of $900 million vs Volkswagen with no one killed and $7.3 billion set aside currently for costs. An odd measure of value
4
I've been bragging about the performance of my Jetta Sportwagen TDI since I the time I bought it back in 2010, but I've always managed to push aside doubts that the emissions claims were too good to be true. Silly me.
Something makes me suspect that the bigger the business, the bigger the pressure to lie.
Something makes me suspect that the bigger the business, the bigger the pressure to lie.
2
Do we really think this is just VW group problem?
Wait for the other shoe to drop as many more cars/brands are found to have cheats in their emissions software control code.
Wait for the other shoe to drop as many more cars/brands are found to have cheats in their emissions software control code.
5
The scale is much larger. What is the collective cost of reimbursing every car owner for the degradation of lifetime value/reliability of the now "fixed" cars. Assuming $3K per car, the number is another $33B.
3
I eagerly await an announcement of criminal indictments by the Justice Department.
5
It is incomprehensible a Car company does something like this, Yes GM problem shows the intransigence but this needs will full wrongdoing, this is not ignorance.
VW is trying to outrun wall street in fraudulent business practices, hey VW this is a technical business, everything follows physics and laws, it is not financial business, you cannot show elephant as a shrew.
Come on VW , it is a shame fro your German heritage too, what gain you were planning from this fraud.
Putting old ladies in a car and claiming that Diesels are not anymore sluggish makes profit for you, you customers are really that much pompous they are expecting from their Sportwagen to outrun the pony cars.
Why? for few dollar?
Ruining a car company and jobs. You build a empire in Europe acquiring skoda, seat etc. and now what? everything flushed down the toilet.
I am sorry but VW CEO is going prison, because this is not just fraud, this utterly stupid.
VW is trying to outrun wall street in fraudulent business practices, hey VW this is a technical business, everything follows physics and laws, it is not financial business, you cannot show elephant as a shrew.
Come on VW , it is a shame fro your German heritage too, what gain you were planning from this fraud.
Putting old ladies in a car and claiming that Diesels are not anymore sluggish makes profit for you, you customers are really that much pompous they are expecting from their Sportwagen to outrun the pony cars.
Why? for few dollar?
Ruining a car company and jobs. You build a empire in Europe acquiring skoda, seat etc. and now what? everything flushed down the toilet.
I am sorry but VW CEO is going prison, because this is not just fraud, this utterly stupid.
3
Oh, I get it. VW "clean diesel" is like "clean coal."
10
Back in the 1980s, foreign made diesels were a huge threat to the Big 3 in Detroit in the wake of the 2nd energy crisis in 1979. To combat this threat, the Big 3 convinced the government shills that diesels should have more restrictive exhaust requirements. As a result, VERY few manufacturers offer diesel cars in the USA. Let's level the playing field and make emissions regulations the same regardless of power source (gas, diesel, etc.) and engine type. And by electric, I mean figuring out how much pollutants are generated, on average, to make enough electricity to make a battery-only powered car go a certain distance.
4
The only surprise is that anyone is surprised. When under Ronald Reagan, the NHTSA lowered the front bumper standard from 5mph to 2.5mph with zero damage. Consumer Reports tested the VW Rabbit before and after the change and the pre change car had no damage, the post change car had its frame bent. Other brands, particularly from Detroit, had damage too, but only VW had to be totaled. At 5mph. NHTSA's own tests confirmed this.
3
This corporate fraud is serious indeed, but it could be argued that there is a larger issue regarding tail pipe emissions: the embodied emissions of a car (the emissions created by the manufacture of a car) typically rival the exhaust pipe emissions over its entire lifetime of 100,000 miles.
So when you buy a car that gets 40 miles per gallon, if you add on the emissions created by its manufacture, that car in effect is getting only 20 miles per gallon for the first 100,000 miles. If you are truly interested in reducing emissions in order to save the environment, then keep your old car and try to get 200,000 miles out of it. Buying a new car every three or four years is terrible for the environment, and makes our future on this planet look even more bleak.
So when you buy a car that gets 40 miles per gallon, if you add on the emissions created by its manufacture, that car in effect is getting only 20 miles per gallon for the first 100,000 miles. If you are truly interested in reducing emissions in order to save the environment, then keep your old car and try to get 200,000 miles out of it. Buying a new car every three or four years is terrible for the environment, and makes our future on this planet look even more bleak.
5
I recently traded in my 25 year old Honda Civic which had more than 300,000 miles on it.
It was a great little car but I needed a small SUV so I can take my two small dogs with my on trips and have room for luggage too. But for that I would have kept the Civic.
It was a great little car but I needed a small SUV so I can take my two small dogs with my on trips and have room for luggage too. But for that I would have kept the Civic.
Yet another piece of evidence that the German prosperity and trade surplus is to a large extent built on corrupt practices by German corporations. It wasn't too long ago that Siemens was embroiled in a similar scandal.
4
The Bailout of Volkswagen, the People's Auto, by the German government will make the U.S. Bailout of GM and Chrysler look like a bake sale.
There are many people who are mad at Volkswagen. None more than the people of Germany. Seemingly Volkswagen has managed to flush down the toilet 150 years of a reputation of quality and reliability.
It seems like a likely scenario is that the German people will own Volkswagen. The People will own the People's Auto. Who would have thunk?
There are many people who are mad at Volkswagen. None more than the people of Germany. Seemingly Volkswagen has managed to flush down the toilet 150 years of a reputation of quality and reliability.
It seems like a likely scenario is that the German people will own Volkswagen. The People will own the People's Auto. Who would have thunk?
8
My thoughts on this are as probably already expressed by many. How this has been or is still possible that business or such a renown corporation actually does something like this is that is just plain stupid. The consequences of such actions are going to be detrimental not only to the VW's brand but even a Made in Germany brand, that was so far almost synonymous with perfection. Another thought is that this is happening over and over again, and we would like to think that managers, CEOs and other people involved in business must follow some ethical rules, they don't. This is exactly why we have such a strong distrust in corporation among average men.
7
Darn those darn pesky regulations! Oh, wait, that's what (tries) to keep us healthy! Shame on VW for hiding this and putting people's health at greater risk.
4
At this point, we do not know if other automakers have engaged in similar games with software. It is hard to believe that the method employed to subvert emission testing is not widespread knowledge among the programmers.
The amount of Earth that has to be ripped out to produce the metals and rare earth elements for electric cars makes these less responsible environmental choices than many owners believe. Plugging in an electric car is still using tapping a grid that is using mostly fossil fuels. Thus electric cars are ultimately using natural gas and coal, the most environmentally destructive fuel available, to power personal transportation. What VW has done may be to increase that use through subverting clean diesel that may still be a better stop gap technology until we get the grid powered by more wind and solar. The decision to subvert emissions testing was idiotic. At the very least, 100% of those who contributed to this through either active participation or engaging in "go along get along" by knowing and keeping silent should be fired and never allowed to work in the transportation industry again.
The amount of Earth that has to be ripped out to produce the metals and rare earth elements for electric cars makes these less responsible environmental choices than many owners believe. Plugging in an electric car is still using tapping a grid that is using mostly fossil fuels. Thus electric cars are ultimately using natural gas and coal, the most environmentally destructive fuel available, to power personal transportation. What VW has done may be to increase that use through subverting clean diesel that may still be a better stop gap technology until we get the grid powered by more wind and solar. The decision to subvert emissions testing was idiotic. At the very least, 100% of those who contributed to this through either active participation or engaging in "go along get along" by knowing and keeping silent should be fired and never allowed to work in the transportation industry again.
2
I certainly agree that an environmental audit should be done, however...rare earth metals are being replaced in electric motors. And electricity, even with transmission loss and coal fuel is still a lot less dirty than a car motor.exhaust. In addition electricity can be produced very green and renewable.
The accounting provision they have made to cover the costs of this debacle is not nearly enough. Double that amount is not nearly enough. Mr Winterkorn should resign immediately. He is no longer a credible person to represent the company.
5
Take all of these illegal cars off the road immediately. They are hazardous to our health.
6
When it was time to get a newer car the choice was between a Prius C and a VW Gold TDI. Yeah, the Prius C is slow as heck, it's not a really fun car to drive ~ but I am glad I went with the Prius. The dirty and gross slime emission from Diesel engines always left a smear in my mind since I was a little girl. Even more now...
3
Why, Volkswagen, why? Does greed know no boundary? Some prison time for the VW execs might prevent this in the future.
5
We bought a 2010 TDI Sportwagon for the clean engine and the great mileage. We also got a nice rebate from the State of California to boot. I wonder if California will sue for having given out so much money in incentives? On another note, will there be a "black market" for used TDI VW's that do not get the software fix?
3
Conspiracy to commit criminal fraud is a felony. Conspiracy is normally considered more serious charge than the actual underlying crime itself. VW should not be exempt from these charges and those atop VW must not be slapped with penny-on-the-dollar fines or we must empty our prisons of everyone who serving time for a conspiracy conviction. It would be more just to simply use the Citizen's United ruling as a fulcrum to level charges against those who head-up VW's USA division and those who run dealership relations. They are the ones who tell the mechanics what they can and cannot do for their customers. Everyone of them had prior knowledge and a handful of investigators can prove it. A reporter for the NYTimes could confirm it without leaving the state of New York, too. Simply put: this is criminal corruption in an effort to thwart our laws. It harms those who cannot defend themselves. The oldest and youngest amongst us are most vulnerable to lung damage from diesel pollution. I was raised to believe that no one is above the law. It is incumbent on us to make sure those who conspired to break the law and pollute be charged, given a fair trial and penalized by the full weight of the law. Anything less would prove beyond any doubt that our nation is being crushed under the boot of the wealthy and it's not cake they're asking us to eat - not this time. With over 7 billion people on this planet can we afford to have a ruling class that acts like it is above the law?
3
I have a 2009 VW Jetta Sportwagen diesel (TDI) with a manual transmission. My disappointment is with VW management, not their engineers, or their cars. They have a great product, which will need to be re-engineered so as to improve its emissions. Diesel engines (a fundamentally German invention by Rudolf Diesel) are more efficient and powerful than their gasoline powered counterparts. If I have to pay more for the vehicle, so be it. Their management didn't need to cheat, to be competitive, in my opinion.
3
My VW Jetta diesel's backup camera does not come on sometimes, when I place the car in reverse, which has already created issues for me driving in DC. Anyone else having this issue too?
Something that confuses me on this. All sorts of carmakers have been trying to find ways to better their mileage. I suspect they reverse engineer each other's cars. VW has touted its diesel expertise. I am really surprised that another car company did not figure this out and blow the whistle for competitive advantage.
4
It's amazing how open and candid Volkswagen's CEO is willing to be once they were caught. They weren't so open and candid the past year when they were questioned about their questionable emission data. Martin Winterkorn should be fired as it's doubtful that the software scene had to be approved at the highest level in the organization. It's also interesting that he's setting aside $7.3 billion to fix the cars and pay the fines, when the fines haven't even been assessed and could be well in excess of the $7.3 set aside to do both.
With a more than a 30% drop in shares based on a very poor decision Winterkorn should go along with some of his senior management.
With a more than a 30% drop in shares based on a very poor decision Winterkorn should go along with some of his senior management.
4
It's much easier to be open and candid after you've been caught.
I hope the lesson is learned from the CEO of the Georgia peanut company that is going to jail for knowingly dispatching salmonella tainted peanuts which sickened many people and killed nine. VW diesel cars are spewing out 40 times allowable pollution levels here in the US which potentially has a very negative effect on health especially for lung cancer and people with asthma- but really, for all of us. The VW execs should be going to jail as well.
4
Sometimes, I think the Chinese have it right. Countries with the death penalty should execute these executives. It would NEVER happen again.
Poor people rob out of desperation and foolishness. No punishment will ever deter people for committing crimes as a result of poverty. Crimes like the ones committed by corporate execs? They can be easily deterred. Just sentence the criminals as if they were poor people of color.
Poor people rob out of desperation and foolishness. No punishment will ever deter people for committing crimes as a result of poverty. Crimes like the ones committed by corporate execs? They can be easily deterred. Just sentence the criminals as if they were poor people of color.
I own a 2012 Golf TDI. I paid VW for the performance I experienced during the test drive. It's a good bet that "fixing the cars to comply with pollution standards" will degrade performance. (Otherwise, why would VW have cheated in the first place?)
Will VW buy back these cars? I'm not interested in owning a Golf with compromised performance. That's not what I paid for.
Will VW buy back these cars? I'm not interested in owning a Golf with compromised performance. That's not what I paid for.
3
Once the offending software is disabled the car will meet emission requirements and there will be e lots of people who will want it, no doubt at a discount, and you should. Be compensated for the difference. Between the value of your used vehicle before the announcement of this problem and its value after the repair. Then you should sell it. Simple as that.
I guess the Canadian education system is not all it's touted to be: Doofus - the car does not meet emissions standards - the software was intended to cheat emissions tests. What part of this article did you actually read?
Now that we have determined that (at least here in the US) a corporation is a person just like any other kind of person, is Volkswagen going to be arrested?
10
Punishment for this blatant disregard for the law - 10 year moratorium from selling cars in the U.S.
Let's see how well our justice system works.
Let's see how well our justice system works.
4
There is no amount of polish that can restore the shine on this brand.
5
The cheating explanation might be too simplistic. Putting together a car software is complicated. One needs an auto engineer who know how emission works, a business analyst that documents this for the programmer, a programmer to write the program, someone to put all this into production, and someone to QC it. Were all of these people in collusion?
Perhaps VW, like most corporation, was under tremendous pressure to cut cost. So it lays off the experienced engineer, BA, implementation staff, and QC with cheaper workers. The cheating wasn't cheating, because it wasn't intentional. Instead, the whole process is broken. I wonder if VW is so quick admits to this is cheating because it diverts attention from more serious problems the outside world hasn't noticed.
Perhaps VW, like most corporation, was under tremendous pressure to cut cost. So it lays off the experienced engineer, BA, implementation staff, and QC with cheaper workers. The cheating wasn't cheating, because it wasn't intentional. Instead, the whole process is broken. I wonder if VW is so quick admits to this is cheating because it diverts attention from more serious problems the outside world hasn't noticed.
1
Actually going back in time when diesel engine manufacturers for semi's had to pay a fine for their engines not meeting emissions testing. In fact I believe every manufacturer had to pay that sold in the united states except the japanese makers. The path was already shown.
1
There will be fines, no doubt, but no one is going to jail for this criminal act. That might offend a mega-corporation and we surely wouldn't want that to happen, now, would we.
3
My apologies for bringing politics into this but has it occurred to anyone else that all this fuss is coming to light because of Democrats? Some of the Republican candidates want to do away with the EPA...so no EPA, no problem! Well, obviously the CEO is done but I think that will be the end of it.
1
Not sure what you mean by "coming to light because of Democrats." If you are referring to the fact that VW was able to get away with this fraud for 6 years, from 2009 through 2015, during which time we had a Democrat ruling the Executive Branch, then yes, you may have a point :)
I hope that the consequences of VW's actions are so dire that no automaker ever again dares deceive the public in this way. Whether the consequences come from government regulators, the judicial system, and/or outraged consumers, I hope that, in future, the mere mention of "the VW deception" will be enough to stop automakers with similar intentions in their tracks. I know I will never buy a VW in future, though I've often given it serious consideration in the past. Nothing could ever convince me to do so again.
3
Why stop at VW? Let's check all vehicles, GM too, let's see what the onboard computer does to the emissions system while being tested in park, and tested again while driving at highway speeds. It's no secret manufacture ratings were estimates, both emissions and gas milage, and today with onboard computers they can easily turn off the emision system to achieve better performance while driving. I've been waiting for this 'can of worms' for years.
4
Clearly the degree of calculation and premeditation involved should lead the company and as many executives as possible to be prosecuted to the full extent of the law, hopefully to send people to a real prison (like the ones others go to), to collect a whole lot of money for the treasury, and, ideally, to bankrupt the company. Goodbye VW.
1
I like many other TDI owners bought my car, a 2013 Jetta, under the false promise that I would be driving a "green" vehicle that not only had exceptional MPG but also had strong performance. Before this I babied along a 1989 Volvo, which finally died when the timing belt broke. It might have not had the best MPG, but I rationalized that keeping an older car going, and not driving much (under 5000 miles per year) was a green approach, preferring biking and public transit. The Jetta was my first new car, and may likely be my last. Volkswagen should buy back all affected cars at pre-scandal value, and the guilty executives should face jail time.
While rage at Volkswagen is totally justified, maybe we need to flip this issue around and face the fact that if we are really going to reduce the greenhouse gas emissions that are likely to finish off the planet in the future, we need to change our driving habits NOW -- drive a little slower, settle for a little less pickup, think of driving not as "fun" but as something we do only out of necessity.
If VW had thought their "clean diesel" technology would have sold if it was actually clean, the emissions control switch would be on all the time, not only during testing. But they knew the market...and the market -- is us. Still insisting on meeting the challenges of addressing climate change with no adjustments to our lifestyle or our technology.
If VW had thought their "clean diesel" technology would have sold if it was actually clean, the emissions control switch would be on all the time, not only during testing. But they knew the market...and the market -- is us. Still insisting on meeting the challenges of addressing climate change with no adjustments to our lifestyle or our technology.
53
I would add your laundry list - buy electric or hybrid electric vehicles. Get rid of the pure combustion engine altogether. I have seen Domino's Pizza delivery guys driving around in Priuses. If they can make the switch, then your typical American family can as well. No more excuses.
While I agree with your general sentiment, and it's true that Volkswagen made choices based on what they thought customers wanted... it's important to note that this particular case has nothing to do with climate change. The emissions controls that were being bypassed were for nitrogen oxides (NOx), which are regulated because they contribute to smog, not to global warming.
Automobile NOx emissions do have a small effect on climate but that is negligible compared to the effect of cars' CO2 emissions. The only way to reduce CO2 emissions is to improve fuel economy - burn less gasoline in the first place. That can be done, as you imply, by reducing engine size and power. It can also be done to a lesser extent by bypassing emissions controls. That is, Volkswagen's ruse probably reduced CO2 emissions at the expense of increased NOx. If anything, their deception made a small benefit for global climate, while degrading local air quality.
The New York Times flagged this comment as a pick despite the incorrect physics; I hope that will be corrected, or some note will be made. If readers are to understand the technical issues that are the basis of these kind of stories it's important that editors and writers also understand.
Automobile NOx emissions do have a small effect on climate but that is negligible compared to the effect of cars' CO2 emissions. The only way to reduce CO2 emissions is to improve fuel economy - burn less gasoline in the first place. That can be done, as you imply, by reducing engine size and power. It can also be done to a lesser extent by bypassing emissions controls. That is, Volkswagen's ruse probably reduced CO2 emissions at the expense of increased NOx. If anything, their deception made a small benefit for global climate, while degrading local air quality.
The New York Times flagged this comment as a pick despite the incorrect physics; I hope that will be corrected, or some note will be made. If readers are to understand the technical issues that are the basis of these kind of stories it's important that editors and writers also understand.
The clean diesel technology they have is adequate to meet emission control requirements,, but not without negative side effects. There are other manufacturers who can do this who will take the VW market share if VW can't compete without cheating, which is exactly what should happen.
Forbid that a mechanic would turn off emissions controls, or roll back an odometer! This is simply shameful.
1
Given some of the comments here (some of them NYT Picks, even!) I will say as an engineer that it is incredibly easy to detect when the car is being tested.
In fact, most cars are aware of when a car is being tested and disable certain features such as traction control that might skew the results or create safety concerns at the test station.
That said, obviously, it is illegal to activate a different engine management algorithm when the car is being tested than what is active during normal use.
The amount of complexity on board most modern cars is completely beyond the grasp or awareness of their owners. With newer engine technologies (cylinder deactivation for example) the software needs to command the various actuators at minute time scales to make it work without it being noticed, or causing catastrophic failure. The code loaded onto car control units is incredibly robust.
In fact, most cars are aware of when a car is being tested and disable certain features such as traction control that might skew the results or create safety concerns at the test station.
That said, obviously, it is illegal to activate a different engine management algorithm when the car is being tested than what is active during normal use.
The amount of complexity on board most modern cars is completely beyond the grasp or awareness of their owners. With newer engine technologies (cylinder deactivation for example) the software needs to command the various actuators at minute time scales to make it work without it being noticed, or causing catastrophic failure. The code loaded onto car control units is incredibly robust.
5
My faith in contemporary German companies as paragons of quality control has been severely shaken this year. First, Lufthansa failed to monitor its suicidal pilot and now, VW has apparently allowed the fraudulent use of its emissions software. If I can't trust German companies, who is left in the corporate world?
4
First question: Are we sure no other car companies are doing this?
I say we find out.
I say we find out.
11
buy toyota
problem solved
problem solved
1
According to the WVU Cafee and ICCT studies: EPA does not generally test vehicles, but relies on manufacturers' self-reports. It was nearly dumb luck this was caught. The WV group tested 3 vehicles: a 2012 Jetta, 2013 Passat and a BMW X5. They are careful to note that their findings do not extrapolate to other vehicles or diesel in general. Each of these three vehicles uses different NOX control strategies, which are also different from 2015 VWs. The 2015 VW models, the 2013 Passat and X5 use urea catalyst, not a NOX trap. These cars easily surpassed all EPA reqs as well as European PM standard in real world driving except NOX. The BMW passed all the tests including NOX. It was the 2012 NOX trap that did really poorly. Furthermore, the average NOX failure was about 6 fold the standard for the 2013 Passat, not 40 fold, a value from a particular test failure (uphill rural driving) while at least 2013 actually meets NOX standard for steady state highway driving. Finally, the ICCT study was larger in scope and noted a 38% discrepancy in reported and real world CO2 emissions across 13 manufacturers both gas and diesel and suggest that many manufacturers are exploiting loop holes.
I'll add that some indignant writers look no further than their roof racks if they're interested in other "defeat devices."
None of this excuses VW's hack whatsoever.
I'll add that some indignant writers look no further than their roof racks if they're interested in other "defeat devices."
None of this excuses VW's hack whatsoever.
2
Can you include a link to the studies you reference?
Big Business = big cover up. We saw it with GM and with Toyota, Takata etc. Until executives go to jail, this will continue. Making corporation pay fines punishes shareholders. It never hurts paying fines with other ppl money.
3
If it has not been said already, note that no one died, unlike where GM got away with murder, literally.
4
Pollution kills does it not. Enjoy your tea
A recent article in the NY Times reported that air pollution causes 3.3 million deaths a year worldwide. The relation between various kinds of air pollution and mortality is well-known--and only goes up, the more carefully it is studied.
I would like to see the math on how many deaths the VW software has contributed to. It's likely that VW's fraud has played a role in thousands of deaths. In all probability the lethality of VW's crime far exceeds the deaths caused by GM's faulty ignition switch. Instead of the smoking gun, we have the smoking tailpipe.
You can't call it murder, because conviction for murder requires a more direct causal relationship. But "criminal conspiracy to commit wrongful death" sounds about right to my non-legal mind.
The people most vulnerable to air pollution are children, the elderly, and the sick. VW has been preying on these people for 7 years. Can you imagine the response if terrorists had killed an equivalent number of our citizens?
I would like to see the math on how many deaths the VW software has contributed to. It's likely that VW's fraud has played a role in thousands of deaths. In all probability the lethality of VW's crime far exceeds the deaths caused by GM's faulty ignition switch. Instead of the smoking gun, we have the smoking tailpipe.
You can't call it murder, because conviction for murder requires a more direct causal relationship. But "criminal conspiracy to commit wrongful death" sounds about right to my non-legal mind.
The people most vulnerable to air pollution are children, the elderly, and the sick. VW has been preying on these people for 7 years. Can you imagine the response if terrorists had killed an equivalent number of our citizens?
5
Well, looks like we have the 1st test of the DOJ's new policy to go against white collar crime.
1st, fine VW the maximum penalty per violation. I believe an earlier article in the NY Times today said it was $37,500 for each recalled vehicle.
2nd, go after each and every one of those VW officials who willfully, deliberately and intentionally lied to the government, saying the defect was only a "technical error" - put them behind bars and throw away the keys. No plea bargains unless they agree to serve a sufficient time in jail.
That should get everyone's attention - including those on Wall Street.
1st, fine VW the maximum penalty per violation. I believe an earlier article in the NY Times today said it was $37,500 for each recalled vehicle.
2nd, go after each and every one of those VW officials who willfully, deliberately and intentionally lied to the government, saying the defect was only a "technical error" - put them behind bars and throw away the keys. No plea bargains unless they agree to serve a sufficient time in jail.
That should get everyone's attention - including those on Wall Street.
3
EPA and VW keep referring to a "fix", but the sad fact is these cars are working just as intended. They need to be redesigned from the ground up.
Meantime, I expect a full refund on my 2014 Jetta Sportwagen. The car I bought is not the car that was advertised, and as a Californian I am mortified to be driving not a "clean diesel" vehicle but one that would not actually pass smog if tested without the interfering software.
It's fraud, false advertising, and just all-round corporate malfeasance. Thank goodness for the EPA.
Meantime, I expect a full refund on my 2014 Jetta Sportwagen. The car I bought is not the car that was advertised, and as a Californian I am mortified to be driving not a "clean diesel" vehicle but one that would not actually pass smog if tested without the interfering software.
It's fraud, false advertising, and just all-round corporate malfeasance. Thank goodness for the EPA.
97
LM Myers says: "Thank goodness for the EPA."
I heartily agree. Republicans and Americans in general should take note.
I heartily agree. Republicans and Americans in general should take note.
Agree the implications are far more than a repair and will require redesigning. Sadly, refunds will require protracted lawsuits. The cash 'set aside' is also staggeringly low: 11 million cars splitting the 7.3B amortizes to $634 per vehicle. Barely enough to cover the bench time with your local mechanic. VW revealed the 7.3B is half a years' profit. Seriously?
You expect a full refund? Hardy-har! Get in line, fast. There may be 11 million in that line in front of you! Good Luck!
Those responsible should go to jail for 20 years.
3
Just like the Ford management did after the Pinto disaster, the GM management after ignition disaster, the Toyota management with the air bags, or all the bank management all bailed out by tax payers except Ford. What planet are we living on. If you owe five dollars to the IRS they will pursue you until hell freezes over. It is a wonderful world.
Just like the executives from Ford, GM and Toyota. Like the executives for the big banks responsible for the 2008 economic disaster.
I the bright side, they'll be offering good deals on conventional engined cars to stay afloat through this. Time to look for a good deal on a new Bug.
2
Well, Ford survived after knowingly selling Pintos that were certain to cause some deaths, and other automakers sold cars knowing they had dangerous defects. So VW's fraud, which adds a bit to our already polluted environment, should be judged in that context and be fined accordingly.
2
Yes, but there's a difference. What Ford did was tolerate a bug.
What VW did was design and deploy a feature. Not a bug, a feature. An add-on. A bad one. That takes it to a whole different level.
Also, this wasn't some rogue engineer cooking this up. This was an organized, long-term, company-backed effort. This was company POLICY.
VW deserves to be fined and sued into bankruptcy. And the corporate officials who are responsible for this "effort" deserve to do some hard time in a prison of the non-country-club variety. The kind of prison to which we send low-income kids guilty of drug offenses or armed robbery. Places like Attica.
What VW did was design and deploy a feature. Not a bug, a feature. An add-on. A bad one. That takes it to a whole different level.
Also, this wasn't some rogue engineer cooking this up. This was an organized, long-term, company-backed effort. This was company POLICY.
VW deserves to be fined and sued into bankruptcy. And the corporate officials who are responsible for this "effort" deserve to do some hard time in a prison of the non-country-club variety. The kind of prison to which we send low-income kids guilty of drug offenses or armed robbery. Places like Attica.
1
c2396: I agree, except that I don't want VW to be fined into bankruptcy, thereby killing a lot of jobs and some very good cars. The people responsible should be charged and jailed among the rest of the prison population, yes, but let VW have its house cleaned in the upper floors and personnel replaced, not sued into bankruptcy.
Except that ford and gm did not design the cars to blow up or have faulty ignition systems. VW purposefully designed the system in this car to get around US emissions standards.
1
A few thoughts:
1. Maybe the solution to such a gross level of fraud is to place VW America in govt receivership until it can be sold off, and send its leadership to prison.
2. Why does the Obama Whitehouse detach itself from the functions of its administration. Like with the NSA scandal, it behaves as if the EPA is an interesting alien organization. Please stop talking about your government and events in the third person, and stop playing us for fools. The buck stops at the Whitehouse.
3. Why is the EPA only discovering these problems now? How wide and deep does this mendacity go into industry and government and policy making?
4. Debating whether gas or diesel is healthier is like talking about different kinds of cancer. Government and industry need to move quickly and in lock-step to find honest and viable alternatives. Even electric cars are hardly viable until the source of electricity is clean too.
1. Maybe the solution to such a gross level of fraud is to place VW America in govt receivership until it can be sold off, and send its leadership to prison.
2. Why does the Obama Whitehouse detach itself from the functions of its administration. Like with the NSA scandal, it behaves as if the EPA is an interesting alien organization. Please stop talking about your government and events in the third person, and stop playing us for fools. The buck stops at the Whitehouse.
3. Why is the EPA only discovering these problems now? How wide and deep does this mendacity go into industry and government and policy making?
4. Debating whether gas or diesel is healthier is like talking about different kinds of cancer. Government and industry need to move quickly and in lock-step to find honest and viable alternatives. Even electric cars are hardly viable until the source of electricity is clean too.
5
You have to be kidding. We are used to critics always try to blame the "Obama Whitehouse" for everything, but this is goes beyond the usual nonsense.
1
Congratulations!!! Yours is the first inkling that someone "gets it". Electric cars are no more pollution free than the source of the electrical energy that charges them... a point totally lost in the hype that surrounds them which promotes them as "pollution free" with "zero tailpipe emissions". The "tailpipe" has simply moved upstream.
This also applies to hydrogen powered cars where the system that extracts the hydrogen from the chemical bond that holds it (a hydrocarbon molecule or water) is almost certainly NOT pollution free. Such extraction requires energy from some source .. likely a fossil fueled power plant.
The level of ignorance surrounding discussions about "clean energy" is astounding!!
This also applies to hydrogen powered cars where the system that extracts the hydrogen from the chemical bond that holds it (a hydrocarbon molecule or water) is almost certainly NOT pollution free. Such extraction requires energy from some source .. likely a fossil fueled power plant.
The level of ignorance surrounding discussions about "clean energy" is astounding!!
1
1. VW is a publicly traded German corporation, and I strongly doubt its U.S. division could simply be put into receivership.
2. This isn't even *remotely* President Obama's fault. VW successfully fooled regulators in what could easily be dozens of different countries.
3. First, the EPA *didn't* discover the problem -- an outside group did -- and the reason they failed to see it in the first place was because VW apparently did an exceptionally good job of producing software specifically *designed* to fool regulators. There is zero evidence here of any mendacity between government and industry, nor do I expect any.
4. This is hyperbole. Under current EPA emissions standards, numerous vehicles sold in the U.S. have achieved PZEV (partial zero-emission vehicle) standards, meaning their exhaust quite literally contains virtually no harmful emissions. I certainly agree that we need to produce cars requiring as little external fuel as possible -- as you pointed out, every current point source for auto fuel (with the arguable exception of hydrogen fuel-cell vehicles) produces significant environmental harm, whether it's electricity from dirty coal or gasoline from refineries with lengthy histories of EPA violations -- but scapegoating any *one* technology doesn't help matters.
2. This isn't even *remotely* President Obama's fault. VW successfully fooled regulators in what could easily be dozens of different countries.
3. First, the EPA *didn't* discover the problem -- an outside group did -- and the reason they failed to see it in the first place was because VW apparently did an exceptionally good job of producing software specifically *designed* to fool regulators. There is zero evidence here of any mendacity between government and industry, nor do I expect any.
4. This is hyperbole. Under current EPA emissions standards, numerous vehicles sold in the U.S. have achieved PZEV (partial zero-emission vehicle) standards, meaning their exhaust quite literally contains virtually no harmful emissions. I certainly agree that we need to produce cars requiring as little external fuel as possible -- as you pointed out, every current point source for auto fuel (with the arguable exception of hydrogen fuel-cell vehicles) produces significant environmental harm, whether it's electricity from dirty coal or gasoline from refineries with lengthy histories of EPA violations -- but scapegoating any *one* technology doesn't help matters.
Since we are talking about the environment we also should talk about the giant SUVs and pickup trucks, the gas guzzlers, driving around with often only one person in it. Btw due to their size those rolling living rooms are pretty dangerous for pedestrians and bicyclers and they are more damaging to the roads than lighter cars.
5
The LIAR speaks:
In a video message, VW CEO Martin Winterkorn addressed the loss of customer confidence directly.
“Many millions of people around the world trust our brands, our cars and our technologies. I’m endlessly sorry that we disappointed this trust,” he said. “We will do everything to regain your trust step by step.”
In a video message, VW CEO Martin Winterkorn addressed the loss of customer confidence directly.
“Many millions of people around the world trust our brands, our cars and our technologies. I’m endlessly sorry that we disappointed this trust,” he said. “We will do everything to regain your trust step by step.”
2
What's the liquidation value of Volkswagen Group? In the US, EPA penalties could be as high as $18B. Each US VW owner likely will collect as much as $10,000 in damages; that's $5B. There are 20 times more VW diesel cars worldwide, although penalties are likely less elsewhere. Meanwhile, VW is banned from selling 2016 cars in the US, and their European diesel sales--half their market--will be zeroed, as well. This could be the end of VW, and, if so, it will be a deserved fate.
5
This is criminal fraud and conspiracy at many levels. Criminal behavior requires real people - exec's etc go to jail! Setting aside 1/2 year's profit is just saying hey - it's the cost of doing business.
5
"Volkswagen’s...chief executive, Martin Winterkorn...said the company would work with government authorities to investigate the matter. 'Everything will be laid on the table, as quickly, thoroughly and transparently as possible,’ Mr. Winterkorn said." What an extraordinary thing to say. Winterkorn's the CEO, who had to o.k. the fraudulent plan, so does this mean the investigation will begin with his admitting his enormous culpability?
5
Whenever a corporate scandal like this happens, the first things to ask should be:
a) Which of these managers and board members are criminally liable?
b) How much will they be fined personally?
b) When and how long are they going to jail?
a) Which of these managers and board members are criminally liable?
b) How much will they be fined personally?
b) When and how long are they going to jail?
8
It seems to me of late that if you live long enough you'll see your faith eroded in everything you once loved.
7
The Vee Dub Flub.
I am wondering how this would be treated if Volkswagen had instead sent 11 million cars to dump barrels and barrels of toxic pollutants into our rivers and streams.
Because there's really no difference if you knowingly violate the law by dumping millions of tons of toxic pollutants into the atmosphere.
Because there's really no difference if you knowingly violate the law by dumping millions of tons of toxic pollutants into the atmosphere.
4
Two follow-ups needed on this situation. First, we need to test the diesel vehicles of every other manufacturer. Is it only VW that is cheating or do they all do it? Second, we need an explanation of the additional pollutants added to our air and the impact this pollution has on our health.
5
There is a policy called "zero tolerance" which is widely used when dealing with children in institutional settings, such as schools and camps. It consists of immediate and maximum consequence to all parties, without regard to extenuating circumstances, or "who started it." It is a black-and-white policy popular with black-and-white thinkers of the Reagan era, with people who believe the just world fallacy. It is held to be wrong-headed and counter productive today, to punish individuals indiscriminately for every interaction that creates disruption to the smooth flow of the group.
It is however the perfect approach to dealing with adults whose actions harm others. If you are willing to ignore the larger cost of your actions, then you should be put out of our misery. If your actions benefit you but also harm others, any rational person would see the danger in allowing you to act. A rational society should do no less.
It is however the perfect approach to dealing with adults whose actions harm others. If you are willing to ignore the larger cost of your actions, then you should be put out of our misery. If your actions benefit you but also harm others, any rational person would see the danger in allowing you to act. A rational society should do no less.
4
A fraud of this sophistication and magnitude had to be known and effected by a good number of people in the VW food chain.
Following the precedents set after the 2008 financial crisis, will regulators just try to extract as much cash as possible from VW or will we finally see some jail time for corprarte malfeasance?
Following the precedents set after the 2008 financial crisis, will regulators just try to extract as much cash as possible from VW or will we finally see some jail time for corprarte malfeasance?
3
That would be a travesty. Nobody died from this unlike the GM case.
really? because i think you don't understand how air pollution works
40x and no one noticed smoke coming out of the tail pipe, 40x that not possible , back in the 80ds you could not pass a smog test with out techron in the tank, Volkswagen was the only diesel not to use ad-blue, which is a injection of ammonia into the exhaust forming a ammonia gas to brake up heavy carbon, now were spewing ammonia gas how that better.
1
Volkswagen needs to hire some good PR firm, buy some of our politicians , visual media outlets and it will be all good soon.
1
For more than a century, we have endlessly re-beat, and re-hammered, the "Rube Goldberg" technology we call the internal combustion engine.
If the simplest way is the "best way", the internal combustion engine must be the worst way.
It's time for a massive change. What stands in the way of that change? The oil companies - or as they now like to call themselves, the "Energy Companies". The damage they do, both to our nation, and to our planet, is unbounded.
Now is the time. A network of recharging stations will be required, and that, like Interstate Highways, is a job for the Federal Government.
Let's clip the wings of Big Oil, by having our government sponsor a program, using the Manhattan Project as a model, to get the electric car rolling on a meaningful scale.
We will all breathe easier when that is done.
If the simplest way is the "best way", the internal combustion engine must be the worst way.
It's time for a massive change. What stands in the way of that change? The oil companies - or as they now like to call themselves, the "Energy Companies". The damage they do, both to our nation, and to our planet, is unbounded.
Now is the time. A network of recharging stations will be required, and that, like Interstate Highways, is a job for the Federal Government.
Let's clip the wings of Big Oil, by having our government sponsor a program, using the Manhattan Project as a model, to get the electric car rolling on a meaningful scale.
We will all breathe easier when that is done.
6
Electric batteries will still be too heavy, too expensive, without long enough range and take too long to recharge.
They have potential liabilities of over $100 billion to the owners of the engines, because of the reduction in the value of their cars. They may very well have to close their business.
3
Ridiculous emissions standards. I wish we were back to the good old days of high power, high emissions. This nonsense of Greenhouse gasses and EPA overreach is stupid. Still, Volkswagon shouldn't have lied.
1
Is acid rain stupid? Is smog stupid? Get real.
1
You are alone on that front....I for one don't want the air filled with diesel smog of the type that blankets Beijing and used to be endemic to US cities
1
Bet you also miss smog and polluted water in those the "halcyon" days of yore.
2
The smart thing, and the only way VW can even hope to regain some modicum of the goodwill that many of its customers have felt toward the brand for many years, is to buy back the cars at blue book value from the day before this news was made public. It need not be cash; it could be a voucher toward another VW product, or an allied brand (Audi, Porsche). Otherwise they are facing not only years of class action suits, which they are likely to lose given the manifest fraud of which they are (by the company's own admission) guilty, but wholesale flight from the brand.
5
Keeping this in perspective, the investment banks, rating agencies, brokerages and law firms for many years knowingly sold essentially worthless mortgage paper to retirees, charities. and just about everyone else in a massive conspiracy constituting grand larceny against every investor. Our thoroughly corrupt government held no one accountable. Each day the fraud from corporate America and the government continues unabated, from repetitive fines against banks and phone providers to the insulting nonsense that a flood of immigrants from countries that we have no relations with and that have no accessible or accurate record systems can be vetted before they become a neighbor. No wonder mainstream candidates are deemed worthless.
3
how long have the dealers known?
6
This is a disaster from a corporate governance perspective. If the Board was aware of these issues and did nothing about it then personal liability might accrue - potentially civil and criminal depending on the facts. If the Board was not aware of this, then they should have been, and personal liability could similarly accrue. It is hard to see how the Board can remain in its present form. There will need to be a shake up to appease investors and regain credibility.
Christian Browne - http://www.summerfieldbrowne.com
Christian Browne - http://www.summerfieldbrowne.com
3
Traitors to the whole planet. VW was the ultimate hippie environmentalist brand. This is like finding out Mickey Mouse has ties to Al Qaeda. A shock on a deep cultural level. I still can't wrap my head around this. Shame on them. Shame.
5
What about the culpability of the clever engineers who rigged this system? Some public shaming is certainly in order.
2
Public shaming? How about hard jail time instead.
1
This is remarkable, an insight into the liberal mindset.
We have bondholders for the old General Motors nd Chrysler ordered - FORCED - to shut up about receiving legally required restitution after the two banruptcies simply because the Awesomely Cool American version of Ferdinand Marcos demanded freebies that he could repay political loyalties with in 2009.
The bondholders took it in the shorts while Democrat loyalists in the
unions made out like bandits.
But because VW cheated in a more newsworthy way and has not paid enough into the right hands in D.C., they will be attacked by munchkin lawyers. Microsoft and other tech companies got into trouble, too, but a dose of the right people getting tens of millions seems to have cleared things up like magical acne medicine.
We are becoming more like a third-world country every day. When Democrats run the Department of Justice, there really isn't a whole lot of justice to be had. The Constitution needs amending to allow for separate elections of the Attorney General and possibly the Secretary of State.
We have bondholders for the old General Motors nd Chrysler ordered - FORCED - to shut up about receiving legally required restitution after the two banruptcies simply because the Awesomely Cool American version of Ferdinand Marcos demanded freebies that he could repay political loyalties with in 2009.
The bondholders took it in the shorts while Democrat loyalists in the
unions made out like bandits.
But because VW cheated in a more newsworthy way and has not paid enough into the right hands in D.C., they will be attacked by munchkin lawyers. Microsoft and other tech companies got into trouble, too, but a dose of the right people getting tens of millions seems to have cleared things up like magical acne medicine.
We are becoming more like a third-world country every day. When Democrats run the Department of Justice, there really isn't a whole lot of justice to be had. The Constitution needs amending to allow for separate elections of the Attorney General and possibly the Secretary of State.
2
VW and that jerk who raised a life saving drug 4000% in one day….are two sides of the same coin…..Unfettered corporate greed gone amok.
People we are being played for "rubes" by the global corporate Oligarchs...
People we are being played for "rubes" by the global corporate Oligarchs...
11
"Mistakes were made," of course. But are we to expect the Justice Department to view them through the prism of the FIFA model or the Wall Street model? Probably the latter. After all, protecting us from shady soccer executives is far more important than protecting us from those who conspire to pollute the environment.
2
Why is everyone up in arms over this?
Why are we not asking ourselves, have the regulatory boards actually overreached with the requirements and pushed manufacturers to these extremes.
I for one believe that C.A.R.B. and E.P.A. both simply create new regulations for the sake of being able to say "look see we are doing good, we made more rules"
These regulatory boards have NO OVERSIGHT they rule with an iron fist and no brains,I could go on for days with examples of rules from each that make no sense and have NEAR ZERO impact on the environment,but MILLIONS of dollars of impact to manufacturers and consumers alike.
Has anyone else noticed that the only numbers you can find are say spewing NOx at a rate UP TO 40X's the regulation amount?
UP TO 40x's, SO WHAT, what is the real world average, thats what I want to know.
I'm betting its pretty low, but its being BLOWN WAY OUT OF PROPORTION simply because VW thumbed their noses at the regulators,
I'm also betting that they did it to save costs to consumers and remain competitive after the market imploded in 08-09, knowing that they had an entirely new engine in the pipeline but wasn't yet ready for the world.
I TIP MY HAT TO VW, good on ya for trying. even if you got caught, its exposing the regulatory hell that car manufacturers go through to the world.
Why are we not asking ourselves, have the regulatory boards actually overreached with the requirements and pushed manufacturers to these extremes.
I for one believe that C.A.R.B. and E.P.A. both simply create new regulations for the sake of being able to say "look see we are doing good, we made more rules"
These regulatory boards have NO OVERSIGHT they rule with an iron fist and no brains,I could go on for days with examples of rules from each that make no sense and have NEAR ZERO impact on the environment,but MILLIONS of dollars of impact to manufacturers and consumers alike.
Has anyone else noticed that the only numbers you can find are say spewing NOx at a rate UP TO 40X's the regulation amount?
UP TO 40x's, SO WHAT, what is the real world average, thats what I want to know.
I'm betting its pretty low, but its being BLOWN WAY OUT OF PROPORTION simply because VW thumbed their noses at the regulators,
I'm also betting that they did it to save costs to consumers and remain competitive after the market imploded in 08-09, knowing that they had an entirely new engine in the pipeline but wasn't yet ready for the world.
I TIP MY HAT TO VW, good on ya for trying. even if you got caught, its exposing the regulatory hell that car manufacturers go through to the world.
1
Time for you to move to Somalia apparently, where you don't have to worry about those icky regulations and nasty government.
2
Yeah, "regulatory hell".
Too bad there aren't more poisons in our water, toxins in the air, garbage in our oceans . . .
If only corporations could just pollute to each of their heart's content.
What a wonderful world it would be . . .
Too bad there aren't more poisons in our water, toxins in the air, garbage in our oceans . . .
If only corporations could just pollute to each of their heart's content.
What a wonderful world it would be . . .
1
Stunning. This is factory-made deception, at it inception. This is organic greed gone wild. How could so many hard-working, intelligent people work at VW to collude on such a lie on a breath-taking scale? How could that same company not predict that this cheating scheme would turn around and bring them down? Meanwhile, a sense of honor lies wasted, tick tock, the world gets warmer, our innocents get asthma. Hello VW, Americans have very long memories for this kind of brazen betrayal and fraud.
3
Corporate corruption and the desire for the last $ knows no bounds. News reports that I heard stated that VW kept denying until the EPA said they would not certify the product. I wonder if VW is the only mfr doing this.
3
Intentional fraud. Volkswagen should be banned from selling cars in the United States for defor cades.
3
It would be interesting to understand the tangible impact the deception had on the environment. Obviously, a description of "up to 40 times" sounds bad, especially given the number of cars of involved. However, these types of stories never seem to address the actual harm done. Is the additional output inconsequential? Doubtful, but how about some details...
1
In short, NOX is directly related to smog and smog is directly associated with very low air quality and a high correlation to various breathing and other illnesses. People do die from these effects.
How much chemistry do you want to see in the NYT pages?
How much chemistry do you want to see in the NYT pages?
This sounds as ingenious as the potential exploitation of the"heartbleed" cyber-security bug of last year - I would just love to have been present for the planning of diesel-gate, and explanations of denials of any possible downside risks - this makes last week's reveals of Audi & Porsche far-off concept EVs seem....well....ludicrous
The DOJ just said they plan to prosecute individuals for corporate malfeasance, and not just settle for no-admission-of-guilt fines. Well, Justice, we're watching.
3
"We're not gonna fall for the banana in the tailpipe..."
1
This is bad stuff. Fraud. Triple damages to all the car owners. Plus fines. And jail time.
4
What is VW going to do about the air pollution they caused, the decreased value the owners of VW's now suffer and the owners who don't bring their vehicles in for the "fix" because they don't want to suffer the performance degrade.
5
And they thought nobody would notice? I guess not all Germans are environmental stewards.
3
Honest of V.W., sort of. My question is: Is V.W. the ONLY ONE? There are a lot of large, wealthy automakers around the world and I doubt that V.W. is the only one that has attempted this. Let's take a much closer look.
1
I had two Volkswagen products that I was quite happy with except the check engine light kept coming on and costing me a fortune only to have it come on again. On my second example, and Audi A4 Wagon it started coming on a 9,000 miles and continued until the warranty expired when they started charging me about $1,600.00 a pop, only to have it come on the next day. And I have several friends with similar experience. It amazes me that they could or would write a program to fool the EPA but can't program them to keep their new cars running correctly.
2
The tort lawyers are licking their chops right now, and rightfully so. Not to mention that Bob Lutz has said during a TV interview that this willful deception may have criminal exposure as well. If VW wants to win back the trust of the public, it will have to clean house very thoroughly. In like heads should be rolling immediately.
3
The academic scientists and the regulators at EPA and in California who uncovered this deserve high praise. They undertook a dogged, years-long investigation into an incredibly complex technical issue, in the face of lies and stonewalling from the company. They've uncovered possibly the largest fraud in automotive history, which was/is doing massive damage to the environment and our health. Perhaps Washington will put aside any anti-EPA and anti-science bias and offer these individual the commendations they deserve.
13
A GOP dominated Congress would NEVER oblige.
2
During my long life I never bought a VW. Lot of people are now stuck with them - as the article reports, VW can fix the 'cheating' software but then the cars will not pass the tests.
Can VW rebuild the cars? Possibly but Ms. Merkel will have to give them some money.
Can VW rebuild the cars? Possibly but Ms. Merkel will have to give them some money.
2
Deliberately designed a chip to circumvent emission standards, thereby adding tons of health damaging particles to the air we all breathe, likely resulting in expediting the death of those with respiratory illnesses; no words to describe this latest episode of unbridled corporate avarice.
Their illicitly gotten gains, and indeed the value of the company, falls short of what is needed to compensate the millions affected worldwide, due to their blatant criminal actions.
Their illicitly gotten gains, and indeed the value of the company, falls short of what is needed to compensate the millions affected worldwide, due to their blatant criminal actions.
9
Criminal charges, DOJ. CRIMINAL CHARGES.
15
Degrade performance and Fuel consumption----DAH...main reason I dump as many of the WORTHLESS emission controls on cars I have.little working on them and I get better MPG and less Emissions without all that JUNK..
That may have worked in 1978 but not any more, not in decades. You've got some emission out of whack just waiting to be caught - or you get to invest in new engines. Make sure you always pack a working fire extinguiser if you try this at home.
If the courts follow the law about fraudulent transactions and remedies available to a deceived purchaser, VW is in big trouble. The law in most states would award 100% of the purchase price plus interest.
Somehow, big corporations always find a reason the law doesn't apply to them. It will be interesting to see if VW can work that magic in this case.
Somehow, big corporations always find a reason the law doesn't apply to them. It will be interesting to see if VW can work that magic in this case.
7
EPA is a US agency, not global. This finding only affects the US segment, and only for that particular engine/firmware combination. The implication is that VW has violated global policy - no such thing exists. Question is, how far off of baseline the adjusted numbers are, and can an impact be qualitatively measured? It will all be statistical guesswork. Think through te problem carefully before judging. Hardly the tragedy it's being made out to be. More thorough reporting required.
From the article, "At other times, the cars had better fuel economy and performance, but produced as much as 40 times the allowed amount of nitrogen oxide...." Most people would say that's a pretty good indication of how far off the baseline the adjusted numbers are.
3
Sure, as when hauling up a steep slope at 70 mph.
All of these pollution specs are written relative to a specified demand cycle, with fractions of the time allocated to different modes of operation.
All of these pollution specs are written relative to a specified demand cycle, with fractions of the time allocated to different modes of operation.
In consideration of some unfounded alarmism I will note that VW's 6 cylinder diesel (Touareg), the Mercedes diesels, the BMW diesels, and the Ford, Chevrolet, and Dodge truck diesels are emissions compliant. The Japanese makers sell many SUV and small truck diesels in Europe and Australia that comply with emissions regulations there. VW's motives are unclear but what is clear is that there are clean, 2-liter, 4-cylinder turbo diesels on the market.
1
Just like "clean coal" technology, there really aren't "clean diesels" out there either. Diesel emission regulations in Europre and Australia do not compare with the U.S. and the diesel pollution in the Third World is amazingly unhealthy. Try visiting Mexico City, for example, and tell me about clean diesels after your trip.
The other "emissions compliant" 4 cylinder diesels use urea based "Diesel Exhaust Fluid" which owners must add on a regular schedule. Doing without the urea gave VW a huge edge in the marketplace which they are now going to lose.
This is corporate fraud on an Enron level, and on an issue about which many people care very deeply. Given that we haven't even seen the extent of the fallout at this point, it's not clear whether VAG will even survive this, at least in its present form.
On a personal level, disappointment doesn't even begin to cover it. I have always driven Volkswagens and Audis, and it was virtually a given that my next car would be an Audi (and a TDI model). Unless VAG's internal investigation is so transparent and thorough that the offenders are all clearly identified and dealt with, I will very sadly turn elsewhere for my next car. I suspect I'm far from alone.
On a personal level, disappointment doesn't even begin to cover it. I have always driven Volkswagens and Audis, and it was virtually a given that my next car would be an Audi (and a TDI model). Unless VAG's internal investigation is so transparent and thorough that the offenders are all clearly identified and dealt with, I will very sadly turn elsewhere for my next car. I suspect I'm far from alone.
3
There is no guilt-free car, not even electric ones.
1
Who is going to bring in a car for a recall which will decrease gas mileage when that is why you bought the car?
Cost is going to be a lot less than projected.
Cost is going to be a lot less than projected.
1
You think the states are going to continue to let these cars through their emissions testing without being fixed?
2
The cost is not going to be in recalls. The costs will come in fewer people buying the new cars even after the problem is "fixed". Nobody will trust them
Oh, well. So much for industry policing itself.
4
Customers need to take control of the businesses that cheat them consistently and by that, they should totally abandon their business, hurting them and their investors who have become the second coming, over the customers who buy their shoddy products. The people, despite the Supreme Court, are supreme in everything. They need to start acting like it and demand that these criminals take their white collars to prison like any other crook.
3
Well, we can certainly count on the free market to do the right thing. After they've been caught, of course. Free markets are hardly free. They are a license for the greedy and unscrupulous to fleece the public.
7
Jeffery, there ARE alternative places to live with ll the wonderful government oversight you could ever hope to see. Go look for a better place for youself!
Get that passport renewed, this will involve flying.
Get that passport renewed, this will involve flying.
Volkswagen said it would also make “other efforts to win back the trust of our customers.”
_____________
We were a "VW family" in the 60s & 70s. Though we haven't bought a VW in many years now, we still have been fond supporters of the company. We thought VW was a responsible corporation. However, it's hard for me to imagine ever giving the company any level of trust again.
That's too bad.
_____________
We were a "VW family" in the 60s & 70s. Though we haven't bought a VW in many years now, we still have been fond supporters of the company. We thought VW was a responsible corporation. However, it's hard for me to imagine ever giving the company any level of trust again.
That's too bad.
4
So, now will THIS conduct be enough to charge some person or persons in the company with criminal conduct--outright deception and fraud on thousands of buyers and on the US government?
And if so, will someone at the executive level be held responsible? Or will they just identify a few unlucky lower level souls to be sacrificed?
And if so, will someone at the executive level be held responsible? Or will they just identify a few unlucky lower level souls to be sacrificed?
1
The US government needs to use its leverage of an enormous EPA fine to ensure that VW/Audi takes care of its American workers and fairly compensates consumers. This episode may have an enormous impact on people at VW/Audi dealerships around the country and the Chattanooga, TN plant once Americans (and potentially the world) stop buying VW/Audi for a while. I would hate to see a fine of many billions of dollars just disappear into the black hole of the US Treasury while Americans suffer due to no fault of their own.
1
VW stopped selling the afflicted autos here in the US and Canada. Given how huge the diesel market is in Europe and VW's market share there, let's see if VW stops selling these cars in Europe, too. If VW were serious about fixing this mess, they would have made a stop-sale announcement along with today's confession, but this company is still trying to find weasel room around a disaster of its own creation.
3
In some ways the diesel VW's are better for the environment. In some ways they're worse. Even with the cheating it remains unclear whether diesel VW's are better or worse for the environment overall. What is clear is that the US has emission standards that favor gas engines over diesels. The playing field in the US is not level. The bias against diesels is irrational and favors American manufacturers who produce few diesel cars.
2
Volkswagen deserves the maximum penalty under the Clean Air Act of $37,500 per vehicle recalled. No compromise. The damage to the environment and human health has already been done. The deception and lying should ensure the maximum penalty be applied as well as lasting scrutiny of all diesel models produced by all manufacturers.
3
To the EPA haters (from an independent who happens to like clean air/water): How'd you like 40X the auto air pollution worldwide? Also, remember that Richard Nixon lobbied for and created the EPA.
Destroying the EPA would only allow state legislatures which are more easily influenced by big money and local politics, to make a "rush for the bottom" of standards. The EPA isn't perfect, but I'll trust them over the Koch brothers who would destroy the environment just to earn a few more bucks.
Destroying the EPA would only allow state legislatures which are more easily influenced by big money and local politics, to make a "rush for the bottom" of standards. The EPA isn't perfect, but I'll trust them over the Koch brothers who would destroy the environment just to earn a few more bucks.
4
Die Zeit is reporting that VW will also face shareholder suits for false representation of their product and for neglecting to inform them of the problem. The EPA should levy the $18B fine as soon as possible or there may not be much left over to pay the fine with.
2
The value of the cars on the used market has been zero'ed. The federal emissions law have been ignored, and the cars should be removed from the road, and the customers compensated at full purchase price. The customers have been bilked, the public breathing the air have been bilked, and VW is only being fined?
My faith in VW, and what little trust that I had in the agencies involved with this debacle is at the same value as the cars.
My faith in VW, and what little trust that I had in the agencies involved with this debacle is at the same value as the cars.
2
$7.3 billion -- the amount VW is setting aside to "cover the cost" of this shenanigan -- is only about $664 per affected car.
It's hard to believe that will be enough to: a) bring every car to within allowable emissions standards; b) pay fines; and c) settle the civil lawsuits that are sure to come.
VW must be confident that the American government's public threat of an $18 billion fine is nothing but hot, polluted air.
It's hard to believe that will be enough to: a) bring every car to within allowable emissions standards; b) pay fines; and c) settle the civil lawsuits that are sure to come.
VW must be confident that the American government's public threat of an $18 billion fine is nothing but hot, polluted air.
This big cheat effects the whole German credibility, not only Volkswagen.
Germans are self-proud for their “honesty” and they make large propaganda on that.
We have instead seen several times in the recent past German cheating and lying, as in the Deutsche Bank affair, the Germanwing-Luftansa disaster, denying that their wealth is due to 80% debit discount made by the winners in 1953, and now with this long lasting VW illegal behavior.
Germans affirm that they are wealthy because they are “good Germans” and this is a Nationalistic behavior much similar to the 1930s one, which caused such a worldwide disaster with the WWII, of which they never paid the damages, but they smartly don't remember.
I think we have to stop the German Nationalism until we are in time before they start the WWIII.
It would be enough if the world will hardly pinpoint their failures, as they do with the others' ones which don't act according their rules.
So, in this last VW cheat, I hope that the US justice will be not forgiving because they showed themselves always good in the past.
They are fine calculators and all what they do and did, is and was only appearance, as it was appearance their after war effort to show to the world that they forgot the Nazi mentality, while their Nationalism (father of the Nazism) fully re-surged after the German reunification.
Germans are self-proud for their “honesty” and they make large propaganda on that.
We have instead seen several times in the recent past German cheating and lying, as in the Deutsche Bank affair, the Germanwing-Luftansa disaster, denying that their wealth is due to 80% debit discount made by the winners in 1953, and now with this long lasting VW illegal behavior.
Germans affirm that they are wealthy because they are “good Germans” and this is a Nationalistic behavior much similar to the 1930s one, which caused such a worldwide disaster with the WWII, of which they never paid the damages, but they smartly don't remember.
I think we have to stop the German Nationalism until we are in time before they start the WWIII.
It would be enough if the world will hardly pinpoint their failures, as they do with the others' ones which don't act according their rules.
So, in this last VW cheat, I hope that the US justice will be not forgiving because they showed themselves always good in the past.
They are fine calculators and all what they do and did, is and was only appearance, as it was appearance their after war effort to show to the world that they forgot the Nazi mentality, while their Nationalism (father of the Nazism) fully re-surged after the German reunification.
4
You forgot to mention Hitler. Remember it was he who wanted Ferdinand Porsche to design the "people's car".. which turned into the "Volks" "Wagon".
Your remarks are *outrageous*, invoking Nazis and nationalism as a root cause of corporate malfeasance which is the order of the day in U.S. companies. Scam after scam in health care, education, and government.
This has nothing to do with Germans and Germany, and everything to do with the lack of government regulation, and corporate corruption.
Your remarks are *outrageous*, invoking Nazis and nationalism as a root cause of corporate malfeasance which is the order of the day in U.S. companies. Scam after scam in health care, education, and government.
This has nothing to do with Germans and Germany, and everything to do with the lack of government regulation, and corporate corruption.
1
Hefty fines and mandatory jail for CEO and others involved. Period. Otherwise, we are doing what we did to the Wall street Crooks. They just got away paying fines! what a deal!
Ungreen at any speed.
I am racking my brain trying to think of a more colossal betrayal of customer trust by a large company in my lifetime, and I cannot think of one. An entire brand's image and hard-built reputation, gone overnight.
For shame VW!
And then their is the big question: will any top executives serve serious time for this global defrauding of the public? Our will they follow the traditional ways of their ilk, and just bail out of this flaming wreck with their golden parachutes?
I am racking my brain trying to think of a more colossal betrayal of customer trust by a large company in my lifetime, and I cannot think of one. An entire brand's image and hard-built reputation, gone overnight.
For shame VW!
And then their is the big question: will any top executives serve serious time for this global defrauding of the public? Our will they follow the traditional ways of their ilk, and just bail out of this flaming wreck with their golden parachutes?
2
The Ford Pinto incident, in which Ford did the math and determined it would be cheaper to have a certain number of people burn to death each year than to replace a faulty gas tank. I never considered buying a Ford after that.
4
I'll bet the Germans have a contingency plan to deal with lawyers, too. They will argue that the customers want the cars to run in "sports mode", so, to meet market demand, they programmed the cars to switch automatically to sports mode after meeting the specifications of a pollution test drawn up by lawyers.
The driver's style of driving has to matter a great deal. These cars are favored by drivers who like to tweak out every last mpg without slowing down. I wonder how much NOX I spew when I'm getting 15% better than rated highway fuel economy on the highway at 70 mph. I am definitely not peaking the scale of combustion temperature.
I know lawyers, and I know cars. I don't know any lawyers with a deep understanding of car propulsion.
The driver's style of driving has to matter a great deal. These cars are favored by drivers who like to tweak out every last mpg without slowing down. I wonder how much NOX I spew when I'm getting 15% better than rated highway fuel economy on the highway at 70 mph. I am definitely not peaking the scale of combustion temperature.
I know lawyers, and I know cars. I don't know any lawyers with a deep understanding of car propulsion.
1
The "sport mode" business is a red herring. The cars are required to comply with emissions regs regardless of whether they are in "sport mode."
Following the GM and Deny and Defer till folks Die script for success? Hasn't hurt GM sales None. Remember who brought the Volkswagon into being? Look it up hipsters. It was the guy that followed "The Big Lie" doctrine.
1
This was obviously going to happen as soon as emissions tests in the USA switched from the "sensor in the tailpipe reading" to checking the electronic sensors under the dashboard. Most states now no longer even test what's coming out of the tailpipe, instead relying on manufacturer's onboard sensors for pass/fail results.
This has also opened up a whole universe of potential for industry fraud for expensive (and unnecessary) emission sensor repairs. If the sensor light is on, the car will not pass emission inspection, What is coming out of the tailpipe is now irrelevant. The only way to pass the required annual emissions test is to replace the "faulty" sensor -- at a cost of $500-$1000. Planned obsolescence of sensors is keeping a lot of mechanics in business.
This has also opened up a whole universe of potential for industry fraud for expensive (and unnecessary) emission sensor repairs. If the sensor light is on, the car will not pass emission inspection, What is coming out of the tailpipe is now irrelevant. The only way to pass the required annual emissions test is to replace the "faulty" sensor -- at a cost of $500-$1000. Planned obsolescence of sensors is keeping a lot of mechanics in business.
4
Over and over and over again -- the big corporations, the CEOs, the global economy Giants, the hedge funds, the big banks, the drug companies, the energy companies, the Internet Giants -- all of them -- CHEAT until they get caught, and then make a trivial mea culpa and then go back to their next scheme. How about locking up the CEO of VW in a cell where he has to breathe the polluted emissions of his cars for the rest of his life? How about making a drug company CEO take the medicine that he knew caused lethal side effects? How about making the CEO of GM drive a car with an electrical system that will abruptly stop and shut down brakes and stealing? How about taking the life savings of a big bank CEO and putting it into a bogus credit default swap scam, and giving the profits to the little guy he abused? Instead, these big monsters get even more tax breaks, more corporate subsidies, more insider trading deals. Nauseating.
1
If public concern for the environment is more than lip service, the market will give VW the corporate death penalty. I'm not holding my breath. VW will be fine.
2
I am not sure I see what all the fuzz is about! Sure, they tricked the EPA and mislead the public, but that is not something particularly new thing. We all know that the mileage of every car is massively overstated and tests are conducted while driving way below the speed limit and quite possibly without anything going beside the engine. This does not represent reality in any way. They will pay a fine and that is it!
GM hid a defect for years that actually killed people and paid $900 million in fines, why should VW pay up to $20 billion? That outcry seems to be long forgotten and GM cars continue to be sold. Add a recall and compensation to victims and that was it.
And one thing that bothers me the most is this holier-than-thou attitude of American agencies. Oil rigs in Alaska, one of the most fragile ecosytem? Sure. Deep-sea without any contigency plans for that deapth? Will do. Producing flamable water(!) by heavy fracking? No problem. But car emissions from a foreign car manufacturer tips the scale?
GM hid a defect for years that actually killed people and paid $900 million in fines, why should VW pay up to $20 billion? That outcry seems to be long forgotten and GM cars continue to be sold. Add a recall and compensation to victims and that was it.
And one thing that bothers me the most is this holier-than-thou attitude of American agencies. Oil rigs in Alaska, one of the most fragile ecosytem? Sure. Deep-sea without any contigency plans for that deapth? Will do. Producing flamable water(!) by heavy fracking? No problem. But car emissions from a foreign car manufacturer tips the scale?
3
Since the same problem is unfolding in Europe, you will hopefully understand, what the effects of millions of nitrous oxide and small particles spewing vehicles will have on the health of the general population? The huge increase of asthma might be directly associated with the increase of diesel powered cars and trucks.
Obviously, nobody gets killed in an instant, but in the long run, these shenanigans will burden the taxpayers all over with ever increasing health care costs. As VW obviously cannot fix the emission problem, the cars already on the road will continue polluting the air.
And let's not forget the huge financial loss to the trusting VW costumers, who are now stuck with worthless unsalable clunkers.
In light of these points, I find your casual attitude to cheating on a grand scale somewhat uncalled for.
And by the way, cheating is not a 'Kavaliersdelikt'!
Obviously, nobody gets killed in an instant, but in the long run, these shenanigans will burden the taxpayers all over with ever increasing health care costs. As VW obviously cannot fix the emission problem, the cars already on the road will continue polluting the air.
And let's not forget the huge financial loss to the trusting VW costumers, who are now stuck with worthless unsalable clunkers.
In light of these points, I find your casual attitude to cheating on a grand scale somewhat uncalled for.
And by the way, cheating is not a 'Kavaliersdelikt'!
I agree that it will kill in the long run, no doubt about it. And I did not say that cheating is a 'Kavaliersdelikt'! The thing is that it happens all the time to a multitude of companies, both American and foreign. Goldman and other banks settle cases for fraudulent activities - what feels like every other week - without admitting any wrongdoing and no charges brought forward.
GM built and sold cars that had a defect that killed, as did Toyota. Both of them paid about a billion each. But Volkswagen cars do not have a defect, they work as intended, just not with accurate emissions published. This for some reason apparently carries a much higher fine.
And to top it off, there is a government that routinely blocks attempts at every climate conference to combat climate change! But now there is money to be made, so lets go after those evil companies!
GM built and sold cars that had a defect that killed, as did Toyota. Both of them paid about a billion each. But Volkswagen cars do not have a defect, they work as intended, just not with accurate emissions published. This for some reason apparently carries a much higher fine.
And to top it off, there is a government that routinely blocks attempts at every climate conference to combat climate change! But now there is money to be made, so lets go after those evil companies!
I drive a 2005 TDI wagon and I live in CA which I believe has the strictest clean air standards in the country (world?). It gets 40 mpg, always passes smog and has plenty of power. What I wonder is why VW believed it 'had' to sacrafice performance for clean air standards. What is not being addressed in all of these (repetitive) reports I'm hearing, are the many earlier models that did just fine. Is it that air quality standards changed to the point that they could not longer be met, or did VW just think that Americans need over the top racing engines to feel they are getting their money's worth???
38
I believe the 2009 change is far stricter. Earlier models do not have to meet the new standard.
I think you missed the point of the story. The fact that your car passed a CA smog inspection is irrelevant. As the articles have explained, VW admitted to setting the software so that the emissions control systems were activated ONLY when the car was being tested. So your car was clean when it was being tested, and dirty for the other 99.9999999% of the time it was operating.
1
I haven't seen anywhere there wasn't manipulation of results in those earlier cars as well. That, and standards are tighter now.
1
I would assume that CEO Wintercorn's 23 million dollar yearly salary and any "golden parachute" provisions in his contract will be "donated" to people suffering from emphysema and other related smog diseases. Corporations may be "people" but it seems Wintercorn lacks a soul.
I am one of the many TDI owners commenting here who specifically bought the car because I thought it had a lesser environmental impact.
This situation is Exhibit A in the argument that the pursuit of profit will ultimately supersede the public welfare if capitalism is left unchecked.
This situation is Exhibit A in the argument that the pursuit of profit will ultimately supersede the public welfare if capitalism is left unchecked.
2
When the world is facing an unprecedented risk due to climate change,it is frightening to see that corporate greed is so unheeding of our planet, our health, and indeed their the CEO's and engineers' own children.
This is a massive crime against all of us, even those who don't own these destructive vehicles. There are not only health and environmental implications for all of us, but, frankly, huge political implications. This is the sort of action one can anticipate and predict in an unregulated world that this demanded by some political figures here and in other countries.
I hope the fines and jail sentences are quite stiff. The perpetrators have destroyed the well-regarded brand as well of VW.
This is a massive crime against all of us, even those who don't own these destructive vehicles. There are not only health and environmental implications for all of us, but, frankly, huge political implications. This is the sort of action one can anticipate and predict in an unregulated world that this demanded by some political figures here and in other countries.
I hope the fines and jail sentences are quite stiff. The perpetrators have destroyed the well-regarded brand as well of VW.
The timing suggests that this Volkswagen fraud is being put forward now so as to obscure the fact that people died as a direct result of action within GM and no one is going to jail in that case. Once again the Obama administration protects its union friends in Detroit.
Really? This is your analysis about how this news came to the public. The administration kept the info in the vault until they needed to protect Detroit?
Hope the fines paid are in the billions and that there are indictments and convictions that will send signals to other big corporations involved in this kind of harmful sleaze. CEOs involved in this kind of sleaze need to be publicly pummeled and humiliated and then sent to jail with long sentences.
482,000 cars were affected. If the average value of each car is $30,000, then this should cause about a $14.5 billion hit (assuming they have to buy back all of the cars). So, their stock down 30% is about right.
What astonishes me is that among the many who were familiar with this scam, apparently no one became a whistle-blower and reported it to the press.
No doubt there was a culture of "lawyers are full of it" at play.
This is the final straw for me. Widespread cheating such as this, and on a global scale, shows corruption at the highest levels of the company and throughout its culture. It's time for very serious criminal prosecutions and maximum fines, otherwise this will not stop.
1
As long as there have been tests, there have been cheaters. What surprises me is the shock and disbelief expressed by the readers. One need only look to the EPA gas mileage estimates on new vehicles to determine that all of the manufacturers are cheating. This manufacturer just took a more direct approach. I will be looking to invest in VW in the coming months. After all, in only a few short years people will have forgotten about this and moved on to the next big scandal involving corporate malfeasance...
21
Yes, people do forget. VW got caught with similar cheating in 1970s!
How does VW regain the trust of users/drivers that it never had? I've had a few of VWs products over the years and found that the only thing that exceeds the surly nature of the dealer network is the unconcerned attitude of the VW of America. I love VWs as an engineered product (or did) but the company operates a textbook case of bad customer service. Perhaps now we really know where that comes from.
I'd like to see this deliberately "deceptive" corporate behavior by VW used as the basis for a question to all Republican candidates, who routinely deplore government regulation, in general, and the EPA, in particular.
"How in light of the discovery by the EPA of VW's fraudulent conduct can you continue to oppose the EPA, in particular, and regulation of business by government agencies, in general?"
"How in light of the discovery by the EPA of VW's fraudulent conduct can you continue to oppose the EPA, in particular, and regulation of business by government agencies, in general?"
3
Way to go EPA! I'm sure VW ran them through the mill getting at the software.
2
Stupid for VW to be lying and fouling the air. What about the health care costs this action may have caused. The irony being that once the cars are fixed through a simple software reprogram there will probably be hardly a noticeable performance difference and slight reduction mileage- that's my sense as a former mechanic.
But ... but ... self-regulation is a hallmark of the free market system, isn't it? That's why the GOP wants to eliminate the Environmental Protection Agency, because companies know best how to regulate themselves.
14
I have read a fair bit of "SPIN" from VW officials... But, it is really clear that many senior officials had to be involved in what can only be described at a massive fraudulent/criminal activity!! To try to pass this off as a "screwup" sound very much like "College Fraternity talk"!!!
Many executives in VW in the US as well as "head office" spent time developing a "programme" to by pass important environmental regulations. This programme was funded as well as assessed for its effectiveness.... It was then implemented ... and profits of VW INC soared... and many executives received "performance bonuses"!!! If no one goes to prison.. that will be a disgrace/travesty... and a message relating to the failure of the justice system!!
Many executives in VW in the US as well as "head office" spent time developing a "programme" to by pass important environmental regulations. This programme was funded as well as assessed for its effectiveness.... It was then implemented ... and profits of VW INC soared... and many executives received "performance bonuses"!!! If no one goes to prison.. that will be a disgrace/travesty... and a message relating to the failure of the justice system!!
2
Welcome to the brave new world of innovative corporate adaptations in the effort to address anthropogenic Global Warming!
The take-home point here for the corporate world is most likely admiration for the clever folks at VW and a doubling down on efforts not to get caught red-handed implementing this type of cutting edge innovation!
The take-home point here for me is that the CONSUMER MUST LEAD the corporate world by changing its consumptive preferences and cultural mores—the corporate world will never be able to address Global Warming otherwise—the propensity to cheat is way too prevalent, a part of the culture, easy, expected, and available to them.
Michael Bain
Glorieta, New Mexico
The take-home point here for the corporate world is most likely admiration for the clever folks at VW and a doubling down on efforts not to get caught red-handed implementing this type of cutting edge innovation!
The take-home point here for me is that the CONSUMER MUST LEAD the corporate world by changing its consumptive preferences and cultural mores—the corporate world will never be able to address Global Warming otherwise—the propensity to cheat is way too prevalent, a part of the culture, easy, expected, and available to them.
Michael Bain
Glorieta, New Mexico
1
I don't understand WV (German Engineering) was know for its popular car beetles(bug) for many many years. It used to last for a long time. It had gain good reputation all around the world. Why are they spoiling company's reputation. To build trust and good name takes years of efforts. I think WV will be on a selling block in a near future. I will not buy WV any more.
How will this impact the resale value of my 2013 Jetta TDI? How will Volkswagen compensate me for their lies and false marketing?
"How will this impact the resale value of my 2013 Jetta TDI?"
Very badly. I would suggest you recycle it, by burying it in your backyard and using it as a planter for hemp.
Very badly. I would suggest you recycle it, by burying it in your backyard and using it as a planter for hemp.
This looks and is bad.
The European car manufacturers are worried that they'll end up supplying the hardware only and the Americans the software and "brains" of the cars in the future.
But they made their own bed when they made big bets on diesel.
But on the brighter side, VW proved that they can write quite clever software to control the engines and emissions!
The European car manufacturers are worried that they'll end up supplying the hardware only and the Americans the software and "brains" of the cars in the future.
But they made their own bed when they made big bets on diesel.
But on the brighter side, VW proved that they can write quite clever software to control the engines and emissions!
1
I would be curious to see if the Chevy Cruze diesel has similar software. Although not a big seller for GM, Opel is a global brand and if other makers used similar tactics....this could be devastating for a lot of auto makers.
2
My Jetta gets 48-50mpg on the highway. It uses far less resources and pollutes less in the big picture that many, many millions of other cars on the freeway, diesel emissions or not. I don't condone the deception but I love the car, the technology. I've owned many many vehicles and this car is the best. I'd like to see American and/or Japanese big three make a high MPG vehicle as good.
2
Lets stop this concept of corporate deception. Corporations should not be allowed to plead guilty. The are inanimate, the crimes are committed by individuals.
This is racketeering by individuals. Period.
The executives and their designated employees of VW colluded to design, engineer and build a device for the sole purpose of breaking the law and defrauding their customers. From the top down they knew it was wrong from the start but it was done for the sole purpose of obtaining additional profits illegally.
This is no different than a drug manufacturer covering up problems with drugs to protect their bottom line. Public health is involved.
But, the public will continue to buy their cars. This the crux of the problem, the executives know this so thy will continue these deceptions, pay a fine when caught and move on. Every one got a free ride at G.M. even though people died. The people are still buying there cars. I for one had a car with the defective switch. I will never buy another G.M. product again.
This is racketeering by individuals. Period.
The executives and their designated employees of VW colluded to design, engineer and build a device for the sole purpose of breaking the law and defrauding their customers. From the top down they knew it was wrong from the start but it was done for the sole purpose of obtaining additional profits illegally.
This is no different than a drug manufacturer covering up problems with drugs to protect their bottom line. Public health is involved.
But, the public will continue to buy their cars. This the crux of the problem, the executives know this so thy will continue these deceptions, pay a fine when caught and move on. Every one got a free ride at G.M. even though people died. The people are still buying there cars. I for one had a car with the defective switch. I will never buy another G.M. product again.
1
Prison time is the only way to stop this kind of crime. But of course CEO's never go to prison. They pay fines with shareholder's money. VW has lost all respect and it's employees will now pay the price, not to mention those who bought the cars.
4
I believe one of the top news stories yesterday involved a CEO being sentenced to 28 years in prison.
Keep in mind that every other car, truck and engine company building diesels addressed the NoX problem with urea injection. That IS the technical solution recognized by most manufacturers... including the team over at Daimler-Benz.
When VW claimed they had "solved" the the problem in software there was a lot of eye-rolling in the industry. Of course, now we know the truth-- VW didn't "solve" anything, just came up with a clever way to cheat.
When VW claimed they had "solved" the the problem in software there was a lot of eye-rolling in the industry. Of course, now we know the truth-- VW didn't "solve" anything, just came up with a clever way to cheat.
6
Awful, reprehensible, criminal. Their stock is getting hammered. The investigations are not over, and other countries are beginning theirs. VW is now seriously tainted goods. Some execs had mad cow disease, or just mad greed disease to try and pull something like that off instead of designing cars that complied with standards. Mr. Burns-like foolishness, short-sighted and black-hearted.
3
I'm waiting for the Car & Driver review of the new, honest VW Golf TDI.
1
Meanwhile, Big Pharma is raising an HIV drug price by 5,000 percent-- just because they can. And now this example of corporate sleaziness on a breathtaking scale. But the GOP mantra is: get government regulations out of the lives of corporations! For that and myriad other reasons, now fully on display daily, the GOP must not get in the White House. That's the last bulwark against sending this country down a genuinely dangerous path.
13
In making their decision to install the deceptive software, VW understandably anticipated a meaninglessly small fine and no criminal charges against individuals due to past "kid glove" treatment of corporate criminals by the US Department of Justice.
So both our DoJ and VW deserve the wrath of VW owners. The White House is "quite concerned" when they should be outraged, so some of the wrath should be directed to them, as well. When all is said and done, the DoJ will probably say that the reason that a just punishment was not rendered is due to the fact that there is no "deceptive automaker software law" on the books - the excuse they used for the lack of justice for GM's murders - so save some of that wrath for congress, too.
So both our DoJ and VW deserve the wrath of VW owners. The White House is "quite concerned" when they should be outraged, so some of the wrath should be directed to them, as well. When all is said and done, the DoJ will probably say that the reason that a just punishment was not rendered is due to the fact that there is no "deceptive automaker software law" on the books - the excuse they used for the lack of justice for GM's murders - so save some of that wrath for congress, too.
I get that one person might have thought this was a great idea. One person whose year-end bonus or promotion or job security depended on these cars meeting performance AND emissions standards. But the fact that this had to be a conspiracy of many, many people is profoundly disturbing. It is absolutely the price we pay in this country for treating corporations like they are independent actors, separate from the people who run them, where wrongdoing is met with a fine that is just another cost of doing business. I hope people (actual human beings) go to jail for this, and I hope this is a wake-up call as to how we prosecute corporate crimes in the future.
2
I am looking to buy a pre 2009 vw diesel.
The brand will be smeared and it will effect resale across the board.
The brand will be smeared and it will effect resale across the board.
1
If my neighbor removes the old paint on his house using ordinary methylene chloride paint stripper, dumps the refuse over the fence between us, and my child gets sick walking through the stuff, I can sue my neighbor. But if a corporation unlawfully dumps disease-causing pollution into the air, the initiators of the crime have a bevy of political and legal interlocutors shielding those responsible from consequences. Why corporations should be granted unlimited rights -- including the right to influence elections -- but only limited liability, has always seemed immoral to me. I'm responsible for my actions, and so are corporations. It's only reasonable that if Corporations have limited liability, they also should have limited rights.
1
$7.3 Billion to fix 11 Million cars is only about $660 per car. I think it's going to take a lot more than that to fix this problem! I currently own a 2010 Jetta Sportwagen TDI and the reason that we bought the diesel model was for the "clean" emissions and the great MPG. Too good to be true, apparently! I haven't heard anything from VW yet regarding the recall or their plans, but what I'd like to see is for Volkswagen to buy back the cars from their owners.
7
Not to say this isn't a big deal--it is.
But why is this getting so much more press than the recent scandal at GM--which actually KILLED over a hundred people?
Some of the folks at GM have literally gotten away with murder (at the expense of the company paying a fine).
But why is this getting so much more press than the recent scandal at GM--which actually KILLED over a hundred people?
Some of the folks at GM have literally gotten away with murder (at the expense of the company paying a fine).
7
Agreed that the GM scandal was a big deal, but for me the main difference here is that in GM's case, it was a faulty part/parts. With VW this was a willful, intentional violation of Federal laws. Its all about intent. GM i think was more of an "accidental" problem with their cars, VW did this completely on purpose.
You put your finger on the crux of the matter:
"At other times, the cars had better fuel economy and performance, but produced as much as 40 times the allowed amount of nitrogen oxide, a pollutant that can contribute to respiratory problems including asthma, bronchitis and emphysema."
Asthma, bronchitis, and emphysema also kill people (as do diseases aggravated by second-hand smoke) but it is difficult to link a particular death at a particular time to the nitrogen oxide compounds produced by VW cars. However, the link exists and these cars have killed. People die trying to breathe, often in hospital beds, so there isn't a dramatic bloody accident to garner news coverage
.
Visualizing causality was a problem with tobacco and a problem with asbestos. As you point out, it is an even bigger problem here. However, with emissions of 10-40 times the allowable maximum of compounds that cause fatal diseases, these cars have doubtless already caused more deaths than the faulty ignition switches.
"At other times, the cars had better fuel economy and performance, but produced as much as 40 times the allowed amount of nitrogen oxide, a pollutant that can contribute to respiratory problems including asthma, bronchitis and emphysema."
Asthma, bronchitis, and emphysema also kill people (as do diseases aggravated by second-hand smoke) but it is difficult to link a particular death at a particular time to the nitrogen oxide compounds produced by VW cars. However, the link exists and these cars have killed. People die trying to breathe, often in hospital beds, so there isn't a dramatic bloody accident to garner news coverage
.
Visualizing causality was a problem with tobacco and a problem with asbestos. As you point out, it is an even bigger problem here. However, with emissions of 10-40 times the allowable maximum of compounds that cause fatal diseases, these cars have doubtless already caused more deaths than the faulty ignition switches.
So the question I have is. As a consumer would I want to bring my vehicle in for the recall knowing that it could get worse gas mileage or at worse wear out the motor sooner? Seems like the solution to the problem is going to have negative consequences to the consumer.
What's going to happen to the people in charge? The people who set the "tone at the top"? Probably the usual....they leave the company, taking with them the money, benefits,pensions, stock options and probably free travel and other perks that are built into their gold plated contracts. And no one gets punished. Just like former boss of United Airlines. When will this trend stop?
2
What's going to happen if large numbers of VW owners decide they'd rather pollute at a really high level than lose power in their car?
Well, in California, their cars won't pass smog test, and they'll either have to have repairs made that enable it to pass, or be classified as a "gross polluter."
1
Hey, at least no one died...unlike the GM & Toyota deceptions.
2
Who has been harmed and what law was broken? And for the people that say they bought the car because it was a green alternative and now they fell betrayed, get a life.
We have ALL been harmed, Charles.
And for you, get a brain.
And for you, get a brain.
This is incensing that a horrible decision to cheat will cause lost jobs, consumer angst, and possibly the demise of a company or at least its image. Simply foolish greed on the part of VW executives.
I began driving VW's in the 60's and continued through the late 90's when electrical problems with the cars drove me crazy...and VW could not have cared less. Their attitude is consistent if nothing else.
If corporations are people, VW ought to go to jail -- or at least pay the maximum fine per car under federal rules, and then banned for a few years from selling any car.
In the meantime, we need to fix the cars on the road ASAP to curtail pollution.
In the meantime, we need to fix the cars on the road ASAP to curtail pollution.
This will get fixed and heads will roll, but meanwhile it's a good time to get VW stock at a low price.
1
Has anyone looked into the engine management software on VW's gasoline models?
There is a VW in my driveway (gasoline) and I own VW ADRs.
This is a major disappointment and I fell only the first of many shoes to drop. Before it is all over, the problem will probably include VW's gas engines with Direct Injection- as VW driver forums online have been full of complaints about sooty VW engines for years.
I would also guess that they are not the only ones that have been gaming the results and more bad news will be coming from the automotive world.
The next time a politician or pundit decries regulation and claims that private business is more than capable of policing themselves- point to this and GM's ignition switches and Ford's exploding fuel tanks and Toyota's unintended acceleration and any number of other scandals that have plagued big business.
We need strict regulation, performed in-house by experts uninfluenced by political whims. Many of our regulatory agencies are now captive- friendly and all too happy to go along with private enterprise because of career concerns.
VW should expect lawsuits over false advertising, diminished value from car owners, and shareholder lawsuits over any number of claims.
The Board of Management, top tier or Executives and all directly involved with this should be dismissed without Golden Parachutes or retirement. Those who authorized it should be charged under criminal statutes.
This is a major disappointment and I fell only the first of many shoes to drop. Before it is all over, the problem will probably include VW's gas engines with Direct Injection- as VW driver forums online have been full of complaints about sooty VW engines for years.
I would also guess that they are not the only ones that have been gaming the results and more bad news will be coming from the automotive world.
The next time a politician or pundit decries regulation and claims that private business is more than capable of policing themselves- point to this and GM's ignition switches and Ford's exploding fuel tanks and Toyota's unintended acceleration and any number of other scandals that have plagued big business.
We need strict regulation, performed in-house by experts uninfluenced by political whims. Many of our regulatory agencies are now captive- friendly and all too happy to go along with private enterprise because of career concerns.
VW should expect lawsuits over false advertising, diminished value from car owners, and shareholder lawsuits over any number of claims.
The Board of Management, top tier or Executives and all directly involved with this should be dismissed without Golden Parachutes or retirement. Those who authorized it should be charged under criminal statutes.
3
there is an awful shortage of numbers at this point, but here what seems to be the case:
if the cars stuck to the engine management mode that only prevailed at emission tests, they would have less horsepower, less torque and more fuel consumption. By how much, we don't know yet.
The mode at which they operated during normal use reportedly led them to spew out 10-40X their stated NOx gas emissions, and those stated numbers were at or below regulatory limits. Now, numbers matter here, if the regulatory limit is extremely stringent, then even 40X that amount may not be a big deal.
Another factor to consider is that higher-end diesel cars use urea to dramatically reduce NOx gas emissions. So it may very well be that, the EPA mandated an extremely stringent emission standard for NOx, knowing that urea solved the problem quite effectively.
There is a trade-off involved, as less fuel use means less CO2 emissions, and possibly other pollutants.
So while this is definitely fraud on a massive scale, the net harm that was done and is still being done is hard to calculate, for the layperson at least.
if the cars stuck to the engine management mode that only prevailed at emission tests, they would have less horsepower, less torque and more fuel consumption. By how much, we don't know yet.
The mode at which they operated during normal use reportedly led them to spew out 10-40X their stated NOx gas emissions, and those stated numbers were at or below regulatory limits. Now, numbers matter here, if the regulatory limit is extremely stringent, then even 40X that amount may not be a big deal.
Another factor to consider is that higher-end diesel cars use urea to dramatically reduce NOx gas emissions. So it may very well be that, the EPA mandated an extremely stringent emission standard for NOx, knowing that urea solved the problem quite effectively.
There is a trade-off involved, as less fuel use means less CO2 emissions, and possibly other pollutants.
So while this is definitely fraud on a massive scale, the net harm that was done and is still being done is hard to calculate, for the layperson at least.
3
How about a simpler test than the current tax collecting rubber stamp emissions tests? If I can smell your exhaust while sitting in my car behind you you fail?What Volkswagen has done is criminal but permitted by the stupid time consuming testing performed in many states. Don't think that other car manufacturers, benevolent as they may seem, are above what VW has done. Have you sat in traffic behind a Ford 250 diesel pick up truck lately? They don't even pretend to limit emissions while poisoning the interior of your car with their noxious fumes. Travel to Buenos Aires or Sao Paulo and take in the aroma emitted by cars of all makes and models while they spew their breath stealing exhaust poisoning the air that all breath. Diesel is a filthy business and should not be permitted for use in any passenger car.
We don't need the EPA, we don't need government imposing job-killing regulations on industry. Industry can police itself!
4
Hilarious! Did you read the story about a 60 year old drug going up from $13.50 to $700.00 a pill overnight. That's industry policing itself. By and for industry and by and for itself and profits. If industry actually policed itself, we would not have had a financial collapse in 2008. In 2004 NJ passed a law outlawing oil tanks, they funded a program that would help homeowners dig up those tanks, then Chris Christie stole the money from that program to make it look like he had balanced the budget. It's not the EPA that are crooks, it's the rest of these scoundrels.
A lot of cars have what is called a 'sport' mode. For some, this changes the suspension, others the response of the transmission, and for yet others it changes the engine performance. For the latter, I wonder if EPA testing includes the sport mode? What is to prevent VW from adding a 'sport' mode to their vehicles?
VW has a long way to go to earn back owners trust. Many owners through no fault of their own ( and my shop sees several per month) have had engines die because of an internal oil supply problem, and VW is providing little or no support. I've owned several VWs through the years, but probably not another as their quality, and now the emission software tampering, tell me this is not the same company that has manufactured great cars in the past.
1
I will never buy another VW. My Passat had the "oil sludge" problem. Well documented on the 1.8L turbos. VW claimed it only impacted 1998-2004 and was fixed before my 2005 was manufactured. My engine blew without warning and VW disclaimed all responsibility. All one has to do is Google VW oil sludge and one finds that that the problem persisted post 2005. I replaced the engine at a cost of $1,400 and got nothing from VW.
Irresponsible management and no regard for their customers.
The current issue is criminal and should be prosecuted as such. It is astonishing that the CEO has not been sacked. Something of this complexity did not just happen; scores of engineers and managers had to be involved.
Irresponsible management and no regard for their customers.
The current issue is criminal and should be prosecuted as such. It is astonishing that the CEO has not been sacked. Something of this complexity did not just happen; scores of engineers and managers had to be involved.
1
Let me tell you who stands to make out like bandits from this like there is no tomorrow.
Lawyers.
Lawyers.
1
7.3? I don't think that's merely enough!
There is first the cost of recall but second, the cost of criminal wrongdoing, and then third the worldwide class action lawsuits that will follow the criminal case. So VW get ready to multiply the number by 10 or 100. And go Kaput...
There is first the cost of recall but second, the cost of criminal wrongdoing, and then third the worldwide class action lawsuits that will follow the criminal case. So VW get ready to multiply the number by 10 or 100. And go Kaput...
1
Volkswagen owners can easily reactivate their emission control system in less than a minute and without any tools. Simply purchase an OBD-II self-diagnostic and reporting tool ($25) and connect it to the port under the dash. OBD-II connectors have been mandated for all cars manufactured to be sold in the US since 1996. This simple addition will cause Volkswagen diesel on-board computer to act as if it were being tested.
It is ironic that this on-board scanning technology was first introduced by Volkswagen in their 1968 fuel-injected models.
It is ironic that this on-board scanning technology was first introduced by Volkswagen in their 1968 fuel-injected models.
1
Wow. Glad I bought the Outback instead of the Jetta wagon.
Like Toyota and GM before them, VW initially denied wrongdoing and/or stalled for time and space to in which to maneuver. Then, when the jig was up and these tactics clearly weren't working and were only causing more harm than not, VW came "clean" (to a point). Not uncommon "corporate" behavior, not unusual for people to behave this way either. But intentionally designing computer software to evade vehicle emission standards is crazy devious even if it proves to be only part of a larger problem. I especially like the current spin: unlike GM and Toyota's recent car issues, at least the affected VWs are safe to drive. Seriously? Should I feel better already?
One can't help but wonder what they could have possibly been thinking?
That no one would ever notice?
And if the net result of their software shenanigans was improved engine performance and better gas mileage--albeit with apparently had to see increases in crud coming out of the tailpipe--how will customers react when the "fixed" vehicles deliver poorer performance and worse gas mileage?
That no one would ever notice?
And if the net result of their software shenanigans was improved engine performance and better gas mileage--albeit with apparently had to see increases in crud coming out of the tailpipe--how will customers react when the "fixed" vehicles deliver poorer performance and worse gas mileage?
No matter what you do diesel is a dirty fuel. Like "clean coal" diesel just will never be "clean". I would wager that ALL diesel passenger cars have some kind of smog gimmick to get by. Just think about it for a minute....
I confess that I was seduced by my 2014 Jetta TDI statistics. Who could ask for more? A quick low-emitting, high MPG diesel that put to rest all of the issues I, as a physician researcher had with previous diesels. No longer were we facing a car that belched out black smoke on cold mornings or when it accelerated. No, that was the past and the TDI diesel was all about the future for me, an environmentally concerned consumer who wanted to have a fun car (ours is a six-speed standard) and at the same time do well for the environment. Like an overly enthusiastic adolescent who got a sniff of cheap perfume and thought that I was in paradise only to wake up and realize that the errors of my ways. I looked at the data for the TDI before purchasing it. In fact in lectures I gave about diesel I touted the advent of "clean" diesel while I highlighted the public health hazards of diesel engines from the pre "clean" era.
VW and its executives need bear the fruits of their illegal and immoral actions. Presently VW's value has plummeted tremendously and it's likely that its worldwide sales will decline precipitously. While its bottom line will be damaged, the Justice Department needs to address its new-found willingness to attack corporate crime by indicting VW's "leaders". Their conscious deceit and flouting of the EPA's emission standards that puts significant sections of the medically vulnerable at risk of disease and death should not go unpunished.
VW and its executives need bear the fruits of their illegal and immoral actions. Presently VW's value has plummeted tremendously and it's likely that its worldwide sales will decline precipitously. While its bottom line will be damaged, the Justice Department needs to address its new-found willingness to attack corporate crime by indicting VW's "leaders". Their conscious deceit and flouting of the EPA's emission standards that puts significant sections of the medically vulnerable at risk of disease and death should not go unpunished.
5
You should have gotten the Direct Shift Gearbox. It shifts way better than you can. And you can use it to put off brake jobs 100,000 miles with its perfectly synchronized downshifts.
Thanks. I still downshift with the lower gears. Maybe not as well as a computer chip, but not so bad.
Lew, that is a great point you make about the Justice Department's recent pledge to go after "white collar" crime. This will absolutely be the true test of our knack for forgiving corporate greed and crime when a very high fine/settlement is on the table and we see the dismissal of a CEO. This will almost certainly be the approach of VW's legal team; as if that were actually enough to make up for this egregious abuse of consumer trust and published regulatory testing. Crimes as serious as this, when perpetrated by individuals who don't have access to the same financial comforts and armies of lawyers as VW might, are typically prosecuted into oblivion; these individuals often spend the rest of their life in prison or without opportunity for gainful employment due to a felony record. A crime of this scale must be met with an equal punishment.
Bottom line, VW purposely lied to regulators and consumers, put the health of many at risk with their fudged NoX numbers and contributed to the epidemic of global climate change. Surely the reasoning for this can't be as simple as financial gain, but there is no explanation good enough to support this type of crime. Sad to say, the proper response to this crime will send VW the way of the DoDo bird.
Bottom line, VW purposely lied to regulators and consumers, put the health of many at risk with their fudged NoX numbers and contributed to the epidemic of global climate change. Surely the reasoning for this can't be as simple as financial gain, but there is no explanation good enough to support this type of crime. Sad to say, the proper response to this crime will send VW the way of the DoDo bird.
2
The question here is who in the company knew about this and when did they know it? This seems to be a clear case of criminal fraud - those who knew of it and approved or looked the other way should be prosecuted and jailed.
3
This calls for criminal prosecution. It was deliberate and meant to evade the law and deceive customers.
2
Volkswagen is now the corporate equivalent of Bill Cosby - a once-beloved iconic cultural fixture now irredeemably tainted by inexcusable acts of deception and manipulation.
5
As bad as this lying, cheating and polluting company is, how does this compare to GM. Their lies and cover ups actually resulted in the deaths of people. Those of you calling for jail time for VW execs should be howling for criminal charges against those GM execs who actually killed Americans. Our Government let them off lightly and will do so here.
6
Some seem to think this is no big deal. Well, those of us who chose the TDI (Diesel) option paid a hefty premium, often over $4,000 for the privilege of driving a vehicle that doesn't meet EPA standards. Sure it gets great mileage, but the break even point in savings over the cheaper gas engine is five years or more. We were scammed. It's a big deal.
82
Why should VW be allowed to continue to sell cars in the USA after this? They have undermined our laws and polluted the air we breathe.
1
Simply diesel is dead in the US. What of the non conforming cars on the road? VW says to trust them to make the needed repairs. Why ??? What has VW done to earn the consumer's trust? I would suggest that any and all repairs done to correct these problems not be done at a VW dealer rather the repairs be done by an independent shop that bills back to VW all costs for their services. Also a fund needs to be set up by VW for owners to compensate the owners for damages done by VW established negligence.
2
Fahrvergnügen just took on a whole new meaning.
2
Perhaps Barack Obama can ask for Xi Jinping's opinion on how he would handle this type of legal problem in China. Then get a 2nd opinion from Vladimir Putin. And then act accordingly. Keep dreaming!
China has had two major public industrial disasters this year. One involving a huge ferry capsizing and another involving massive explosions in an industrial port city. Hundreds died and were injured. Too big to fail or jail or execute will be no barrier to "justice."
China has had two major public industrial disasters this year. One involving a huge ferry capsizing and another involving massive explosions in an industrial port city. Hundreds died and were injured. Too big to fail or jail or execute will be no barrier to "justice."
2
Never having smoked nor lived with a smoker, I suffer from COPD. I can always tell when I'm in a lane directly behind a diesel car because my lungs seize up. Volkswagon and other diesel engine manufacturers and owners who evade pollution controls are out to kill me and others like me for fun and profit.
2
So, censors, it appears from the viewpoints expressed here, that there is a well established cure for this problem used by all of VW's competitors, urea injection, that will be made available as a free retrofit to anybody who wants it, and it will not affect the performance of the cars.
I think somebody at VW took this into account when calculating the risks. Nobody will get this retrofit unless they need it to pass the dyno test the cars are already programmed to pass.
What an inmate run nuthouse this world is, eh?
I think somebody at VW took this into account when calculating the risks. Nobody will get this retrofit unless they need it to pass the dyno test the cars are already programmed to pass.
What an inmate run nuthouse this world is, eh?
1
The Passat TDI has a urea injection system, placed after the particulate matter (PM) filter, which selectively causes a chemical reaction with the NOx to convert it to nitrogen an and water. Fuel economy should not be affected. My 2013 Golf (Jetta in US) TDI Sportwagon does not have this system. In Ontario, Canada, once my car is 7 years old, it only has to pass an opacity test (measures smoke density)...so in my case I have no worries. But people should talk about all those diesel powered tractor trailers hauling around goods throughout NA. I am sure most (if not all) do not have selective catalyst systems (urea injection) for NOx and do not meet CARB requirements. But those licensed in CA most likely do.
Volkswagen said it would also make “other efforts to win back the trust of our customers.”
This is corporate speak for, "we will try to rip off your face at every turn, but will work much harder to conceal that fact in order to support our trophy wives and rapacious lifestyle."
If it weren't for lawyers and government regulation, corporate America would be conducting home invasions to steal what you might have, entirely skipping the troublesome step of providing products and services first.
This is corporate speak for, "we will try to rip off your face at every turn, but will work much harder to conceal that fact in order to support our trophy wives and rapacious lifestyle."
If it weren't for lawyers and government regulation, corporate America would be conducting home invasions to steal what you might have, entirely skipping the troublesome step of providing products and services first.
3
The seriousness of this chicanery will only be known when we learn what the performance of this engine is when it does meet EPA standards. When properly tuned and meeting standards, what is the 0-60 time? What is the EPA city/highway mileage? This is a much bigger problem for VW if the car takes twelve seconds to reach sixty and gets only 30 MPG on the highway when it is set to meet standards. Forty times the nitrous-oxide limit has been thrown around but what is the actual real world amount it is spewing out over a protracted period?
I would also like to see how significant or not, the excess emissions of these few half a million cars really makes to our overall air quality. The entire country's antique car collection, driven only a few miles on pleasant Sundays, might impact on our air quality more than these modern VW diesels.
I would also like to see how significant or not, the excess emissions of these few half a million cars really makes to our overall air quality. The entire country's antique car collection, driven only a few miles on pleasant Sundays, might impact on our air quality more than these modern VW diesels.
4
I'm a little disappointed that VW didn't fight the charge. It would have given the public a rare look into the auto industry. It's hard for me to imagine how this order came about- was an engineer, a group of engineers, or someone at the top? It seems possible that no one made the decision per say, but was a bi-product of some sort of counter-weight-torque modifier in the programming which emission testing doesn't trigger, because it is only down on two wheels. Regardless, it should have been known the company and it seems the rank and file is pleading out in order to save to their jobs.
10
The guy at the top IS an engineer. He moved up after the diesel swindle was developed.
Who says they're not fighting the charges? A CEO's public admission of guilt -- and note that he didn't announce *he* was guilty of anything -- doesn't necessarily mean a thing, nor does a promise to commit X amount of funds to correcting a wrong. For proof of this assertion, look no further than BP and its myriad attempts to wriggle out of paying its pledged $20 billion for damages sustained as a result of the Deepwater Horizon explosion in the Gulf of Mexico.
The best way to prevent corporate malfeasance of this sort: business leaders who knowingly break the law need to serve jail time. Not even very much would do the trick. It would also send a message that we are all equal before the law and that the rich and privileged don't get special treatment.
4
Funny thing, I always said to friends and those considering any Jetta, Passat, Golf, etc, that VW is nothing but an embarrassment to German car industry.
2
I don't want a "fix" for my 2011 TDI Sportwagen - I want VW/Audi to buy it back! Preferably for the full sales price but at the very least for the full market value before this fiasco.
If a local car lot committed this level of fraud in selling me a vehicle I could file in my local court and have a judge order my money returned. But because it's an international conglomerate we owners are supposed to swallow the loss of cars that are now essentially worthless?
If a local car lot committed this level of fraud in selling me a vehicle I could file in my local court and have a judge order my money returned. But because it's an international conglomerate we owners are supposed to swallow the loss of cars that are now essentially worthless?
7
There are many here who are comparing VW's actions to fraud. But I think a more apt comparison is the willful dumping of toxic chemicals into a local river or stream. The atmosphere is something we all share. Volkswagen willfully caused toxic pollutants to be dumped into it that otherwise would not have happened if they had followed the law. We are all breathing Volkswagen's malfeasance.
6
Can I give mine back?
3
This is so much bigger than it seems on the surface. There was once a time where stories like this shocked people. We have grown so familiar with corporate corruption and greed that travesties such as this have become "business as usual" for executives, engineers, programmers, shareholders, stockbrokers, and even daily newspaper readers such as myself.
Our system is broken, it is bleeding and the only thing people are talking about is how we can bandage this up so we can all feel better and move on with more business as usual.
As I type this, hundreds if not thousands of VW shareholders have likely called their brokers to dump their shares in this monstrosity of a corporation. Who can blame them? But this is what's fundamentally wrong with the system, as it allows everyone to drop the ball and walk away pointing fingers at the coaches, while they simply move their money into the hands of yet another multinational corporation that will use those funds to commit more egregious acts in the name of profits.
The worst part about all of this is the fact that the only punishment anyone is going to receive for deceiving the entire world for profit, is loss of profits. Fines. Maybe the company will go under.
No one will have to pay a true moral price for their deceptive practices because they all have a corporation to hide behind. We need to shake this system up and bring business as usual back to a place where integrity reigns supreme, not profits.
Our system is broken, it is bleeding and the only thing people are talking about is how we can bandage this up so we can all feel better and move on with more business as usual.
As I type this, hundreds if not thousands of VW shareholders have likely called their brokers to dump their shares in this monstrosity of a corporation. Who can blame them? But this is what's fundamentally wrong with the system, as it allows everyone to drop the ball and walk away pointing fingers at the coaches, while they simply move their money into the hands of yet another multinational corporation that will use those funds to commit more egregious acts in the name of profits.
The worst part about all of this is the fact that the only punishment anyone is going to receive for deceiving the entire world for profit, is loss of profits. Fines. Maybe the company will go under.
No one will have to pay a true moral price for their deceptive practices because they all have a corporation to hide behind. We need to shake this system up and bring business as usual back to a place where integrity reigns supreme, not profits.
4
GM deaths=fine. SUV's that suck gas, we're okay with that, we like the "size." VW very fuel efficient but deceptively polluting (trade off?) equals billions in fines and headlines around the world. Of course it should not have been allowed. Guessing that over 100 VW folks knew about this, software such as this is complicated (worked on games, programmers need to talk to each other, testers test). What was the end game? Getting caught was inevitable. After this dust settles. If VW survives, guessing they will, I look forward to the parade of "fired" executives and coders. Wondering why there was no Deep Throat at VW? Seems a wonderful secret to share with Die Zeit.
4
Volkswagen wasn't able to produce diesel cars that had the ideal mix of performance, fuel economy, and low pollution. (Or, at least, they couldn't do this profitably.) So they "solved" this trade-off by sacrificing cleanliness and loosening the emission controls. And they accomplished this via software designed to deceive regulators. This was wildly illegal, and they got caught.
This scandal raises a few larger questions, though: Why did Volkswagen cheat in the first place? And why was it so easy for the company to evade regulators for years? Volvo and Caterpillar did something similar in the late 1990's with truck diesel engines, why did the EPA stopped checking?
This scandal raises a few larger questions, though: Why did Volkswagen cheat in the first place? And why was it so easy for the company to evade regulators for years? Volvo and Caterpillar did something similar in the late 1990's with truck diesel engines, why did the EPA stopped checking?
7
Typical internet buzz. This did not defraud customers - - The fraud exists - but it is against the general (breathing) public, which VW decided to cheat for the benefit of its own customers. VW owners are now living outside the laws established to regulate the tradeoff between mileage and emissions - a loophole created for them by VW software engineers. One more example of big business deciding that regulators are simply ignorable, but the benefit is borne primarily by VW customers.
2
Owners of the impacted vehicles breath the same air as non-owners. We bought one of these vehicles because we thought they were a benefit to the environment due to the good gas mileage. Do you seriously think any owner would have bought these vehicles had they known of this? Now we are stuck with a car that is an embarrassment to drive and, I suspect, has lost a great deal of it's value. So, how are we benefiting from this?
This is a nothing story. Just like global warming is a hoax. The difference in the amount of change to temperature and amounts of additional pollutants is not even measurable.
2
What person(s) at Volkswagen authorized this? Which managers at VW will be held responsible?
1
Total systemic fraud should mean most of Volkswagen's management and even its board should be jailed for intentionally and criminally polluting our shared planet. What destructive sociopaths the Germans have produced many times in the last century, and the rest of the world is sick of their flaming hypocrisy that everyone must "follow the rules" like they screeched at Greece, except them of course. We also caught their Deutch bank in flagrant and systemic fraud and I am starting to wonder if it is all of the much bragged about German industrial model: model for fraud...
1
VW needs to launch a publicity campaign to restore their brand's integrity. Perhaps a celebrity spokesman, like Tom Brady, would help.
4
So if fixing the care is going to bring down the performance why would someone voluntarily take their car in to get it fixed. Particularly if that person doesn't care about pollution? Not too mention, even safety recalls are notoriously bad at reaching all the consumers. Will the government "force" people to get their car fixed?
I have not heard it mention but apologies if it has been said but here goes. I believe both BMW and Mercedes offer a diesel option on their cars. They both require that urea be added periodically to clean the exhaust and meet the EPA standards. All car makers buy each others cars and tear them down to see how they tick. Both BMW and Mercedes must have been interested in how VW can build such a clean engine. I would be willing to make a substantial wager that both BMW and Mercedes knew engine was a polluter and may have even discovered the "defeat" software that VW was using. Just conjecture.
GM defects kill outright 124 people from 2004 to 2014, and it gets a chump-change fine of $900 MILLION. (GM also got $49 billion in 2009 from the US taxpayers to keep it from going bankrupt.)*
VW pumps emissions into the air, and will probably get a fine of $18 BILLION, roughly 20 times the fine that GM got.**
Though the fines come under different agencies and laws, there is still no sense of proportion when it comes to the outright, proven deaths of 124 people.
Also, in reading foreign press reports, it seems like an American company is being favored over a foreign company.
___________________________________________
*“$900 Million Penalty for G.M.’s Deadly Defect Leaves Many Cold”, New York Times, 17/9/15
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/18/business/gm-to-pay-us-900-million-over...
**“It Took E.P.A. Pressure to Get VW to Admit Fault”, NYT, 9/21/15
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/22/business/it-took-epa-pressure-to-get-v...®ion=Marginalia&pgtype=article
VW pumps emissions into the air, and will probably get a fine of $18 BILLION, roughly 20 times the fine that GM got.**
Though the fines come under different agencies and laws, there is still no sense of proportion when it comes to the outright, proven deaths of 124 people.
Also, in reading foreign press reports, it seems like an American company is being favored over a foreign company.
___________________________________________
*“$900 Million Penalty for G.M.’s Deadly Defect Leaves Many Cold”, New York Times, 17/9/15
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/18/business/gm-to-pay-us-900-million-over...
**“It Took E.P.A. Pressure to Get VW to Admit Fault”, NYT, 9/21/15
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/22/business/it-took-epa-pressure-to-get-v...®ion=Marginalia&pgtype=article
3
Nothing shocking or humbling about their confession - just simply a representation of the modern corporate business model - cheat as much as you can until you get caught, then factor in the fine as simply just another basic cost of doing business.
Anyone who simply attributes this as some kind of temporary or isolated lapse in moral judgement needs to wake up and look at what the world has really become. Right and wrong, dishonesty and dishonesty are merely quaint vestiges of the stuff they once taught in Sunday school.
Anyone who simply attributes this as some kind of temporary or isolated lapse in moral judgement needs to wake up and look at what the world has really become. Right and wrong, dishonesty and dishonesty are merely quaint vestiges of the stuff they once taught in Sunday school.
4
You hit the nail squarely on its head. This is MUCH bigger than meets the eye, and is simply yet another example of what our profit- crazed global market has grown to become.
Chalk up those fines as yet another cost of doing business, everyone can move on to their next act of malice in the name of the mighty dollar. That goes for everyone in the chain, executives, engineers, programmers, and even the shareholders worldwide who are dumping their stocks.
Chalk up those fines as yet another cost of doing business, everyone can move on to their next act of malice in the name of the mighty dollar. That goes for everyone in the chain, executives, engineers, programmers, and even the shareholders worldwide who are dumping their stocks.
I would like to see the head of VM at the time this was done prosecuted, convicted, and put in jail. That would send a message.
1
Diesel engines are indeed more efficient than gas engines. I see a constant train of huge SUV's and monster pick up trucks - people using them for grocery shopping.
My friends in Europe have almost exclusively diesel powered cars simply because gas/diesel fuel prices are over $7 per gallon. As long as we have gas prices at just over $2 per gallon - 7,000 # vehicles will reign over here.
BTW my first auto was a VW bug and had it for many years - froze to death in winter and A/C - forgetaboutit.
VW doing this act was stupid. I can still remember when GM came out with their first diesel power autos - the auto pundits said now GM has forever destroyed the reliability reputation of diesel engines. They were correct - diesel powered GM autos are now the Dodo birds of the auto world.
Ten years from now it will be curious to see how VW is faring. BTW VW's big market is in China - good for the Chinese.
My friends in Europe have almost exclusively diesel powered cars simply because gas/diesel fuel prices are over $7 per gallon. As long as we have gas prices at just over $2 per gallon - 7,000 # vehicles will reign over here.
BTW my first auto was a VW bug and had it for many years - froze to death in winter and A/C - forgetaboutit.
VW doing this act was stupid. I can still remember when GM came out with their first diesel power autos - the auto pundits said now GM has forever destroyed the reliability reputation of diesel engines. They were correct - diesel powered GM autos are now the Dodo birds of the auto world.
Ten years from now it will be curious to see how VW is faring. BTW VW's big market is in China - good for the Chinese.
2
What is truly sad is the hard work by literally thousands of engineers on all other aspects of the VW diesel technology, and VW quality designed products, is now all in vain and is lost in this stupid and destructive deception. So many innocent people will suffer with job losses that will now inevitably result at VW, while the true perpetrators will not go to jail or even suffer a scratch to their wealth. It is a tragic story.
1
The amount set aside by VW to repair its fraud is ludicrously low. It will not make a dent in VW's prospective liability, and moreover it is not even half its profits for one year of sales.
Ridiculous and offensive. VW needs to buy back every one of these cars from their owners. And what liability for all the additional air pollution that has spewed forth out of them, damaging everyone on the planet? In this era of climate change, VW has done more damage to us all through its fraud than I can even imagine.
Ridiculous and offensive. VW needs to buy back every one of these cars from their owners. And what liability for all the additional air pollution that has spewed forth out of them, damaging everyone on the planet? In this era of climate change, VW has done more damage to us all through its fraud than I can even imagine.
113
I'm not sure about whether this particular pollution caused climate change. My understanding is that the current tuning of the car emphasized power and economy, at the expense of other pollutants. Car enthusiasts knew that the VW diesels had better fuel economy than the EPA ratings -- which means they emitted less CO2, the main greenhouse gas. But the price was additional other pollutants, which I don't fully understand.
Seems to me this isn't a fixable problem. Once they overhaul the software, the cars will no longer perform as the buyer thought it would when purchased. It is not the same car. How do they fix that? A hefty refund for the buyer of each car? Buy back the car? And then there is the damage to the environment. Try to fix that.
Of course the other issue is that this in all probability is only the tip of the iceberg. This sort of thought culture doesn't have just one offspring. And it isn't just one person who thinks that way. Software engineers, engine performance engineers, management at many levels, all participated in this. It has to have some corrupt forward momentum.
And then there is the condescension and arrogance. Did VW think the rest of the world wasn't smart enough to detect this? And to look the EPA straight in the eyes and say they didn't do it for over a year. VW has a lot of internal cleanup work to do. Firing a few people won't be enough. They need a culture change, and that will take some outside help whether they want it or not.
Of course the other issue is that this in all probability is only the tip of the iceberg. This sort of thought culture doesn't have just one offspring. And it isn't just one person who thinks that way. Software engineers, engine performance engineers, management at many levels, all participated in this. It has to have some corrupt forward momentum.
And then there is the condescension and arrogance. Did VW think the rest of the world wasn't smart enough to detect this? And to look the EPA straight in the eyes and say they didn't do it for over a year. VW has a lot of internal cleanup work to do. Firing a few people won't be enough. They need a culture change, and that will take some outside help whether they want it or not.
162
This was a calculated move made by the whole organization. Right now they are looking a a $7 billion cost when their profit for one year alone is $12 billion. How many years have they gotten away with it? How quickly do people forget when you continue to make fabulous cars that are great to drive? They know exactly what they are doing and don't care one whit what you or I think of them.
1
Fiorina is available. With a little help ftom the Trumpster, all will be great in Republic-land. A new car which uses gas from the mouths of Republican politicians.
The Wisconsin drop out has time on his hands and the Governor from NJ knows how to move traffic as well as mess it up at bridges and tunnels. The black guy will keep all Islamic drivers off the road or maybe he said he would drive them all off the road (to the White House).
And Jeb has an inn which caters to Mexicans so that front is covered too as there is only a bus stop and no room for private cars.
What it all comes down to is this: Americans gave up on American made cars, did not support the unionized workers whose good compensation and retirement benefits kept America great. Americans all became convinced that the industry America made great was not worthy to carry the rewards.
But that is the cause and effect: capitalism's drive to make a buck and in this case to drive home in a fraudulent vehicle built on greed and a lack of morals or ethics.
For God's sake you would think this stroy was about a billionaire fund manager buying a drug company and raising prices 50 times to make a buck. Now that would be bad! That story can be found on page two.
The Wisconsin drop out has time on his hands and the Governor from NJ knows how to move traffic as well as mess it up at bridges and tunnels. The black guy will keep all Islamic drivers off the road or maybe he said he would drive them all off the road (to the White House).
And Jeb has an inn which caters to Mexicans so that front is covered too as there is only a bus stop and no room for private cars.
What it all comes down to is this: Americans gave up on American made cars, did not support the unionized workers whose good compensation and retirement benefits kept America great. Americans all became convinced that the industry America made great was not worthy to carry the rewards.
But that is the cause and effect: capitalism's drive to make a buck and in this case to drive home in a fraudulent vehicle built on greed and a lack of morals or ethics.
For God's sake you would think this stroy was about a billionaire fund manager buying a drug company and raising prices 50 times to make a buck. Now that would be bad! That story can be found on page two.
1
I won't buy Firestone tires because every 20 years or so there's another scandal about their delaminating and killing someone. If the corporate culture is rotten, there is no fixing it. I owned a Beetle and a Rabbit, loved them both. But no VW will ever again sit in my driveway as long as I live.
Thank god my 911, while being from the same group of companies, does not run on diesel :-)
No, the hype of diesel cars in Europe is mostly based on different taxation and has led to enormous advances in engine technology.
But in fact, the diesel engine has been mostly maxed out a while ago, while gas engines, hydrogen engines and hybrids are still at the beginning or in the middle of their development cycles and have lots of space for improvement.
VW has, for years now, maintained that hybrids and other types of engines are way inferior over diesel engines and has therefore mostly ignored changes in market and technology until they had to accept the reality of cars like the Prius.
So what VW has done is, sadly, only logical as this is a buyers market.
They have decided to give the government what the government wants and the customers what the customers wanted.
So the government got low emission data that could be verified in a lab and the customers got the "fun to drive" performance.
As this discrepancy was illegal, it is only too right to charge VW for their solutions.
Next time, use a different approach.
On the upside, the diesel engine may not be looked upon as the non plus ultra the way it is even in Europe these days.
No, the hype of diesel cars in Europe is mostly based on different taxation and has led to enormous advances in engine technology.
But in fact, the diesel engine has been mostly maxed out a while ago, while gas engines, hydrogen engines and hybrids are still at the beginning or in the middle of their development cycles and have lots of space for improvement.
VW has, for years now, maintained that hybrids and other types of engines are way inferior over diesel engines and has therefore mostly ignored changes in market and technology until they had to accept the reality of cars like the Prius.
So what VW has done is, sadly, only logical as this is a buyers market.
They have decided to give the government what the government wants and the customers what the customers wanted.
So the government got low emission data that could be verified in a lab and the customers got the "fun to drive" performance.
As this discrepancy was illegal, it is only too right to charge VW for their solutions.
Next time, use a different approach.
On the upside, the diesel engine may not be looked upon as the non plus ultra the way it is even in Europe these days.
1
If we had elected Rick Perry the last time, this "problem" would not exist. He would have eliminated the EPA.
4
It simply astounds me that VW execs thought this kind of deception was worth the risk.
3
Last year, Hyundai was caught fudging their fuel economy numbers. It was a scandal and people thought that this would teach the industry a lesson in the need to be honest in order to protect reputation.
For those of you who think that this current incident will teach the industry a lesson ... sorry, but it will not.
For those of you who think that this current incident will teach the industry a lesson ... sorry, but it will not.
4
As the owner of several Volkswagen cars in my life, I am heartbroken. I always loved my VW's, but moved on to Prius for the future.
1
I can think of 18 billion ways that VW can start apologizing to the US, and words aren't one. EPA should make them replace the engines as part of the fraud. A strong signal needs to be sent that those who attempt to harm the public's health that this will not be tolerated. Diesels contribute to asthma in children and smog, and should only be used as a last resort as a transportation fuel. As these studies have shown, even clean diesel can be much more polluting than in the lab. The cars should not be tested just in the lab but also in real world conditions, and if those conditions do not yield similar results, then the car should not be approved. It is wrong that children who live in areas where there are lots of heavy trucks operating nearby have higher incidences of asthma, and therefore we should do whatever it takes to reduce the costs borne by society by diesel pollution.
2
In researching these cars to possibly buy, I had read that many owners reported better gas (diesel) mileage than EPA estimates. Now I know why.
2
So to all the conservative, free-market libertarians out there, this is why we regulate.
Corporations are not people -- they are only entities formed to make money.
Corporations are not people -- they are only entities formed to make money.
19
My wife and I have been planning a car purchase, and narrowed it down to the ever-sturdy but boring Honda, a Subaru, and a VW. Loved the VW and it was at the top of our list, but it is now off our list. Nothing about VWs can now be trusted.
4
Part of "Made in Germany" is environmental friendliness. Think of the Green Party, emphasis on solar power, etc. The hypocrisy of this case is delicious. The paragon of German industry, Volkswagen AG, did this, and clearly, the directive came from the top.
4
Volkswagen HAS Defrauded All of Their 11 Million Customers worldwide.... with up to 40X Pollution allowed and deceptively lower Mileage lost to Their Fraud ..... "they would have saved with a different honestly Efficient Auto" !
This is fraud perpetrated on a massive scale. The CEO and other top executives who engineered this fraud should go to prison and VW should operate under court supervision for the next 10 years.
6
I'd like to know how this happened. Who was responsible? Who ordered it? How many people carried out this fraud and for how long? How far up and down the engineering management chain did this go, and if so many people were complicit - as almost certainly must be the case - how did they keep it a secret for so long? How did they expect to get away with this fraud on such a massive global scale? Was there no one in the chain with a public conscience?
2
Why are apparently only penalties being considered?
When will corporate titans start going to jail for deliberate fraud and consumer/societal abuse?
Regulation? Who needs it!
When will corporate titans start going to jail for deliberate fraud and consumer/societal abuse?
Regulation? Who needs it!
Up until now I've loved by TDI. I was considering a hybrid, but liked the power and handling of the VW (and the excellent mileage). I haven't been disappointed....mileage has been great (and diesel in California is cheaper than gas). It handles well and is actually fun to drive. I didn't have a single complaint after owning the car for two years and driving more than 30K miles.
I just passed my smog check a couple weeks ago, but I guess that was a fraud. I'm assuming the "fix" will damage both the power and the mileage offered by the car.
Now, I'm frustrated. I think VW should offer to buy back the cars they sold under false pretenses so customers can look elsewhere. Depreciate it, but buy it back.
I just passed my smog check a couple weeks ago, but I guess that was a fraud. I'm assuming the "fix" will damage both the power and the mileage offered by the car.
Now, I'm frustrated. I think VW should offer to buy back the cars they sold under false pretenses so customers can look elsewhere. Depreciate it, but buy it back.
3
I hate bring you more pain as an owner of a VW, but think about the resale value of your car.
I own a 2010 Golf TDI and find it a wonderful, fuel efficient, powerful and well made car. With that said It is incredibly disconcerting that VW perpetrated this fraud on consumers. TDI buyers paid a premium for the class leading fuel mileage and power the engine provides. If the changes required to comply with clean air regulations impact either of those factors I agree that VW should be forced to buy back these cars from their customers. At minimum resale value will be affected negatively. I WILL NEVER buy another VW product and yes that includes Porsche, Audi and others.
Sounds like an awesome class action law suit in the works!
2
Maybe... since VW is not an American firm with friends in the Justice Department there will be some significant penalties levied on the individual executives involved. ... NAAAH!!!
1
In the world of auto recalls, this is particularly scandalous, because it shows willfulness together with systems built specifically to implement fraud. Most other cases can be excused at some level, because they typically involve negligence or incompetence
1
There is no difference between a conspiracy and a good business plan. VW is no more of a criminal than GM which knowingly allowed people to die for the sake of their profit margins. Clean diesel technology, like clean coal and clean gasoline are myths of convenience that allow major corporations to maximize their profits by putting off the investments needed to move to new technologies. Tesla is the clearest picture of the future of the automotive industry. The only question is how long we have to wait for the major carmakers to make the necessary investments to transition their fleets to all electric. Economies of scale are already in the range of making electric vehicles cost competitive with todays gas and diesel powered cars.
1
I wonder how much pollution is involved in mining, refining, and disposing of the material required for the many millions of batteries that will be needed?
They won't standardize quick-change battery envelopes and interfaces without government mandates. The necessary charging-station infrastructure can't develop without it.
Instant-charge batteries are probably not feasible. Quick-change is.
Instant-charge batteries are probably not feasible. Quick-change is.
There is an underlying problem here which bothers me. The Volkswagon executives---at least some---went along with this scheme believing that they would not be discovered. Isn't it possible that this has been done before....or some version of mis-representing safety standards and getting away with it. Should the whole process of regulatory review be reviewed????
2
I am going to be that guy and say that in today's age when most corporations pay a fine and accept no wrongdoing, you have to appreciate the fact that VW is at least accepting it's deceitful practices. How many American corporations have done that since the financial crisis of 2008? A large number of financial institutions including Bank of America have paid huge amounts of fines and settled cases with the government, while at the same time clearly stating that 'we did nothing wrong'. Whatever punishment VW will get is well deserved, but let's not forget that acceptance of wrongdoing in itself an important pillar of a morally just world. I have at least a sliver of respect for VW on that account.
117
Uh, they are "accepting" after denying and being investigated and pressured for year.
1
You mean AFTER they got caught. Sorry, but the EPA found them holding the smoking gun in an unambiguously coordinated and premeditated effort to break the law and you want to praise them for admitting their deceit?
Sorry, but integrity is doing the right thing even when no one is watching. VW got caught in the act and I hope that some actual humans lose their jobs and fortunes and go to prison. The only thing that will change the bad behavior of corporate officers of major corporations is seeing one of their own in a orange jumpsuit.
Sorry, but integrity is doing the right thing even when no one is watching. VW got caught in the act and I hope that some actual humans lose their jobs and fortunes and go to prison. The only thing that will change the bad behavior of corporate officers of major corporations is seeing one of their own in a orange jumpsuit.
1
@exilarch. Don't exonerate them so fast. Volkswagen didn't offer their mea culpa voluntarily. They were chased down and finally painted into a corner by the EPA which had irrefutable proof. I doubt VW would have admitted wrongdoing unless forced to do so. After all, they deliberately set out to cheat the system and deceive their customers. They must have known they would get caught eventually. They just did the math and decided it was worth it. They are probably right, no matter what the cost. They have made billions upon billions on the scheme already.
1
I believe we need to let this play out. I read the news story by the Times and it does not exactly correlate with the VEW official statements. I would like to know more about the testing done in WV - number and types of cars, actual tests performed (standard EPA and 'road' tests). This does not appear to be as clear cut see the Times and the Governments of USA seem to indicate. I would like to see an independent analysis of the software (VW and EPA have clear bias). The WV lab was acting as agent of EPA.
2
How many cars on the road have a 'sport mode' or a button for disengaging the overdrive? Are emissions the same when driving under those conditions as they are when undergoing emissions testing? Of course not.
In the hyper-competitive world of automobile engineering only the willfully naïve think this is only a VW issue. Pass legislation that requires automobiles to meet certain standards when undergoing emissions testing and guess what, they will be engineered to pass certain standards when undergoing emissions testing. This is a surprise?
There will be some great deals on used VW's and Audi's in the coming months. This 'scandal' doesn't change the fact that many of the named models are excellent cars.
In the hyper-competitive world of automobile engineering only the willfully naïve think this is only a VW issue. Pass legislation that requires automobiles to meet certain standards when undergoing emissions testing and guess what, they will be engineered to pass certain standards when undergoing emissions testing. This is a surprise?
There will be some great deals on used VW's and Audi's in the coming months. This 'scandal' doesn't change the fact that many of the named models are excellent cars.
2
VW, Das FrAaudo.
3
Out here in the third largest city in Illinois, neither cars nor trucks are subjected to emissions testing. There's a huge, ready market for these cars where live the great unwashed.
same in South Florida by the way
No. We are not talking about a local inspection system. If your car is not accepted by the Federal Government, or used only on a race track, it will b e crushed.
It is interesting to see the number of people who suppose that they can continue to drive what they own, because it was once thought to be legal.
It is interesting to see the number of people who suppose that they can continue to drive what they own, because it was once thought to be legal.
Oh my, a German company accused of fraudulent behavior? I thought Germans were honest and didn't do such things, only the lazy southern Europeans were the kings of fraud...
After Siemens and Lufthansa this is the 3rd German company. I guess we should start wondering about German companies' ethics.
After Siemens and Lufthansa this is the 3rd German company. I guess we should start wondering about German companies' ethics.
1
The problem with our regulatory environment is that penalties are almost always limited to monetary sanctions. The automobile industry is infamous for calculating potential liabilities into their equations, even to the point of figuring out how many potential deaths and subsequent lawsuits could be absorbed due to faulty manufacturing while still maintaining profitability. Only when such actions are treated criminally will regulatory objectives become meaningful. But for now, regulatory sanctions are seen as nothing more than overhead expenditures, and the task is to game the system so as to reduce those expenditures as much as possible...and that's where the lawyers come in.
4
Once again, my trust has been stolen by the corporate world...
1
Hope the software programmers get napped too. This does not happen without many people involved. Shameful.
1
EPA out of Control
It is about time some industry flaunted EPA regulations. look what happened to the coal industry or wood burning stoves or the climate change stupidity. The EPA has overstepped it's authority. What regulation exacts a $37,000 fine per car, what happened to punishment that fits the crime? GM has an ignition switch recall that killed 124 people and they were fined only $900 million.
It is about time some industry flaunted EPA regulations. look what happened to the coal industry or wood burning stoves or the climate change stupidity. The EPA has overstepped it's authority. What regulation exacts a $37,000 fine per car, what happened to punishment that fits the crime? GM has an ignition switch recall that killed 124 people and they were fined only $900 million.
2
What is missing in this story is that the Environmental Protection Agency completely failed to find out that Volkswagen was shipping automobiles with 40x the amount of allowed pollution for at least FOUR YEARS.
The cost of smog certification by the EPA and CARB is borne by the automobile companies themselves. Gutting the EPA such that is doesn't have the manpower to discover such criminal acts doesn't save money -- it justs give the larcenous auto companies the ability to break the law without concern. That's why Republicans have made it part of their agenda to gut all United States regulatory agencies.
A lesson here is to improve the EPA. Along the way, criminal prosecutions against guilty Volkswagen INDIVIDUALS will go a long way to discourage law breaking. Like, duh.
The cost of smog certification by the EPA and CARB is borne by the automobile companies themselves. Gutting the EPA such that is doesn't have the manpower to discover such criminal acts doesn't save money -- it justs give the larcenous auto companies the ability to break the law without concern. That's why Republicans have made it part of their agenda to gut all United States regulatory agencies.
A lesson here is to improve the EPA. Along the way, criminal prosecutions against guilty Volkswagen INDIVIDUALS will go a long way to discourage law breaking. Like, duh.
4
At least this glitch didn't kill people unlike recalls by GM and Toyota and the propensity of auto manufacturers and their suppliers to address problems only when too many people have died. Ralph Nader dealt with this problem in "Unsafe At Any Speed" in the 1960s... Nothing is learned and the regulatory agencies are in cahoots with the manufacturers!
2
This bids fair to blow a hole in Germany's economy, considering how much potential liability there is, and the institutional ownership of most VW stock.
1
We have an entire political Party in this country that believes all public regulation to be a job-killing "burden on business." Tell that to millions of TDI owners who've just seen the re-sale value of their premium-priced vehicles tank. I'll bet some of them are Democrats now.
Even if we accept the inevitability of corporate mendacity, the sheer stupidity of this billion-dollar sophomoric prank boggles the mind. Who's driving the diesel-powered Jetta here? Donald Trump?
www.endthemadnessnow.org
Even if we accept the inevitability of corporate mendacity, the sheer stupidity of this billion-dollar sophomoric prank boggles the mind. Who's driving the diesel-powered Jetta here? Donald Trump?
www.endthemadnessnow.org
2
This is very sad. Unfortunately it is just another corporation in a long list of fraud and deception: Worldcom, Enron, Lehman, Madoff, Libor-banks, etc. This one, however, for some reason feels worse. Is it because it cheated and ripped off precisely those consumers with a moral compass, that wanted a cleaner car? Is it because we've come to admire VW for its 100+ year history and (supposedly) quality German engineering?
What we know for sure, is that the size of the scandal is so big, that VW can't remain as it is. This will probably bankrupt the automaker (of course, its long sought strategy to increase of share in the american market is now gone forever). Maybe it has too be sold in pieces to other global manufacturers. No doubt many will face jail time.
What we know for sure, is that the size of the scandal is so big, that VW can't remain as it is. This will probably bankrupt the automaker (of course, its long sought strategy to increase of share in the american market is now gone forever). Maybe it has too be sold in pieces to other global manufacturers. No doubt many will face jail time.
2
Ultimately those of us who know and understand diesel don't care, love our cars, and know they are safer than 90% of the asian cars on the market that cut costs in the wrong places. We also have done our research (as TDI/VW owners do) and know that the majority of this scary NOX2 is actually produced through agriculture and the Hybrids/Electric cars are far more dangerous to the environment.
Lets face it, big oil owns the EPA and the majority of our government and it's bad business to have fuel efficient cars on the road. Plug ins help big oil because we are still using electricity. The entire Europen continent has been mostly diesel for decades without the EPA...... and what do we see? Better fuel economy and no craxy health issues. Click on the link below for more information.
BTW: ALL of you out there in outrage that think diesel cars are such major pollutants.... how many of you are getting your groceries from local farmers instead at the grocery store where they are trucked in on unregulated black smoke producing rigs? Lets get a little perspective on the whole picture.
https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/diesel-nitrous-oxide-recalls-dose-reality...
Lets face it, big oil owns the EPA and the majority of our government and it's bad business to have fuel efficient cars on the road. Plug ins help big oil because we are still using electricity. The entire Europen continent has been mostly diesel for decades without the EPA...... and what do we see? Better fuel economy and no craxy health issues. Click on the link below for more information.
BTW: ALL of you out there in outrage that think diesel cars are such major pollutants.... how many of you are getting your groceries from local farmers instead at the grocery store where they are trucked in on unregulated black smoke producing rigs? Lets get a little perspective on the whole picture.
https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/diesel-nitrous-oxide-recalls-dose-reality...
Thank you for telling me how happy I should be about being lied to.
While studying in Germany, I had a summer at the VW plant in Wolfsburg. I was driving an old Italian car (FIAT) . VW workers used to make fun of me. For them FIAT stood for "Fehler In Allen Teilen". It basically means there is a mistake in each part of the car. I would pay to see their faces now .
1
What is both emblematic about the cyncism and greed of our times, and also illustrative of the continuing lack of real commitment by most people towards improving the earth's environment is that no one is immediately demanding that these cars be taken off the road; that no one with these cars has stopped using them.
Is it really OK for all these cars to be breaking the laws on emissions while the VW researchers take the time they need to find a "fix"? Why are there regulators and police if obvious, admitted to frauds go by only as observed events (like a goldfish float past in its tank)?
It will be fun to see all those emissions floating up into the air, because no one wants to be badly put out by events. A little bravery and heroism on the part of the owners is in order. And a little spine is needed in the bodies of the 50 state governments.
The VW execs can go to jail later. the air can't be rehabilitated
Is it really OK for all these cars to be breaking the laws on emissions while the VW researchers take the time they need to find a "fix"? Why are there regulators and police if obvious, admitted to frauds go by only as observed events (like a goldfish float past in its tank)?
It will be fun to see all those emissions floating up into the air, because no one wants to be badly put out by events. A little bravery and heroism on the part of the owners is in order. And a little spine is needed in the bodies of the 50 state governments.
The VW execs can go to jail later. the air can't be rehabilitated
The EPA impacts will be hard to calculate. Lying to your customers is never a good thing. Calculated risk and they lost. That being said, the VW TDI engine is STILL best in class, and prolific. Since many manufacturers share technology, what impacts to Audi and Mercedes? What effect will this have on consumer resale value? BW TDI enjoys a high resale value - leases are based upon these figures. Now that the bottom has dropped out, predict class action lawsuit to recover damages to offset the residual gaps on leases, minimally. All of those buyers have substantially overpaid for their cars. Sad that VW took such a bold gamble. Different reaction when it is done on purpose vs a mistake.
42
Urea injection does not affect performance. VW eliminated it for competitive advantage.
" That being said, the VW TDI engine is STILL best in class"
Best under what conditions? Legal or illegal emissions?
Best under what conditions? Legal or illegal emissions?
If the VW engine is "best in class" that doesn't say much good about the others now does it?
The punishment of corporations guilty of monumental wrongdoing requires improvement. Corporations like VW are important, they employ hundreds of thousands of people, they have suppliers and distributors, worldwide, all of whom are innocent of any wrongdoing. The punishment must be surgically applied:- the bathwater must be thrown out but the baby must be saved.
I suggest:
1. VW will disable the offending software on the affected vehicles.
2. owners of the vehicles will have the option to (i) sell the vehicle back to VW for its estimated value before announcement of the problem, or (ii) receive a payment to compensate for the diminution in value of the vehicle due to the problem, after the repair;
3. the responsible managers/employees at VW will be identified in a fair process and they and all management level personnel with supervisory responsibility for their behavior, including the COO, CEO and full board of directors, will be terminated and replaced.
4. VW will pay appropriate fines to all jurisdictions where laws were broken, the fines not to exceed the amount that would render the company unfinanceable on the stock offering referred to below; and
5. the cost of this action will be charged against the equity of VW, thus against the existing shareholders, and an amount equal to the charge will be raised in a stock offering to recapitalize the company to its level before the problem was announced.
I suggest:
1. VW will disable the offending software on the affected vehicles.
2. owners of the vehicles will have the option to (i) sell the vehicle back to VW for its estimated value before announcement of the problem, or (ii) receive a payment to compensate for the diminution in value of the vehicle due to the problem, after the repair;
3. the responsible managers/employees at VW will be identified in a fair process and they and all management level personnel with supervisory responsibility for their behavior, including the COO, CEO and full board of directors, will be terminated and replaced.
4. VW will pay appropriate fines to all jurisdictions where laws were broken, the fines not to exceed the amount that would render the company unfinanceable on the stock offering referred to below; and
5. the cost of this action will be charged against the equity of VW, thus against the existing shareholders, and an amount equal to the charge will be raised in a stock offering to recapitalize the company to its level before the problem was announced.
It would be surprising if VW suddenly fixed a mechanical challenge that has stumped them for 7 years. It's not as if only the 2009 or 2009-201x, ... cars are effected. They have had years to work out how to meet both the emission standard and performance, dependability, and fuel economy goals. Can't be an easy fix. How do other diesel car makers, BMW/Mercedes handling this challenge?
37
Mercedes is using ADBlue (Refined Urea) in addition to a catalytic converter. The ADBlue breaks down the Nitrus Oxide. It is the same system all big Interstate Truck Diesels use now. It has it's issue. A common problem is the breakdown of the heater in the Urea Tank trigerring a check engine light and a $3000 fix that Mercedes tries to weasle out of many times. Mine went out a week after the warranty at 41K Miles but at least the dealer, MB of Manhattan persuaded MB to give me the Part for free and stick to scheduled labor fee so it was only $800. Nothing is for free (LOL)
Maybe they are cheating too! In this day and age when it seems to be "every man for himself" and "if you don't get caught, it's okay," whether its business or football, why are we surprised?
I read several places that other diesel auto manufacturers (BMW and Mercedes) use a urea injection system to neutralize and therefore reduce some of the nitrous oxide emissions. Adding this urea converter adds expense and lowers performance so Volkswagen committed fraud instead.
“Volkswagen is working intensely to eliminate these deviations through technical measures,” the company said...How is that for a euphemism.
VW really meant to say that it is now scrambling to tell the truth and make amends after years of lying, and of cheating its clients and governments!
VW really meant to say that it is now scrambling to tell the truth and make amends after years of lying, and of cheating its clients and governments!
2
What do they mean when they say they are going to "fix" the cars? If you buy a car that promises 40 mpg and 200 hp for $25k they can't turn around and make you bring your car into the shop and return a car that gets 25 mpg and 150 hp.
2
All I know is that when I'm sitting behind a VW diesel in traffic, I don't smell one bit of the old diesel smell. That's impressive, to me.
1
If Volkswagen Chief Executive Martin Winterkorn is forced to step down because of this cheating incident he’ll be heavily recruited and welcomed by Wall Street for pioneering such innovative products.
Germans do think ahead. $700 per vehicle sounds about right for the cost of a retrofit urea injection system,
It is interesting that a closely held corporation like VW (51% of voting rights by the Porsche family, 20% Lower Saxony of Hamburg, Germany, and 17% Qatar) undertook such encompassing fraud. Such boards are normally very hands-on. With such hands-on owners as the Porsche heirs, who actively ran both VW and Porsche when the US fraud was started, it would be natural for them to know and if not, to have been consciously protected.
1
I own one of these cars and I don't understand why VW has not communicated with the affected owners yet. No letter or email, no statement on the web site, diesel models not even removed from the site, no contact from the dealership.
I know that they are working on how to respond concretely, but I feel that they should have at least sent a note like:
"Sure you saw the news,
here's the situation,
this is what we are doing,
we are thinking of you,
your trust is important to us,
stay tuned for a concrete proposal,
thank you for your patience"
I know that they are working on how to respond concretely, but I feel that they should have at least sent a note like:
"Sure you saw the news,
here's the situation,
this is what we are doing,
we are thinking of you,
your trust is important to us,
stay tuned for a concrete proposal,
thank you for your patience"
7
"we are thinking of you"
You mean like when they sold you that emissions-cheating car in the first place?
You mean like when they sold you that emissions-cheating car in the first place?
1
I actually contacted them via chat yesterday at their US Customer Service website. It was neither satisfying or elucidating. They are saying nothing for now.
1
This will go to bankruptcy or take them close to it.
Ever regulator in every county where emission testing is required is going to go after them. If they fix each car with a software patch by reducing performance then the consumers will not want them as performance will suffer badly. If they add the emission system like the competitors' car have, they will go broke doing it.
Popular Mechanics has a short piece on how everyone marveled as to how they accomplished the impossible without the necessary emission systems. Now we know.
Company managers take note: this is how you destroy a company by misleading customers, shareholders and regulators.
Ever regulator in every county where emission testing is required is going to go after them. If they fix each car with a software patch by reducing performance then the consumers will not want them as performance will suffer badly. If they add the emission system like the competitors' car have, they will go broke doing it.
Popular Mechanics has a short piece on how everyone marveled as to how they accomplished the impossible without the necessary emission systems. Now we know.
Company managers take note: this is how you destroy a company by misleading customers, shareholders and regulators.
4
Wow! A car so self-aware that it can control its noxious emissions. Would that we had presidential candidates as good.
A PR disaster of truly epic proportions for VW, this will do untold damage to the brand. Its the extent of the deception they perpetrated that really rankles. These cars should all be recalled and have new engines that produce those promised emissions fitted. Of course that will never happen. In fact, its hard to tell how VW will ever fully recover from this debacle but I almost pity their spin doctors for they have their work cut out for them!
What were they thinking?
2
German engineering: if you can't solve the problem, create a software hack that fakes it.
Just think about the amount of people who had to be involved to make this happen. Approval, development, testing, and distribution.
I was waiting for the arrival of Audi A3 diesel sportwagon listed as "arriving this fall." They better turn those ships around.
Just think about the amount of people who had to be involved to make this happen. Approval, development, testing, and distribution.
I was waiting for the arrival of Audi A3 diesel sportwagon listed as "arriving this fall." They better turn those ships around.
2
Church, government, business -- is there any major institution that hasn't lost our trust in recent years? This VW debacle is just the latest reminder that we need to clean house from top to bottom in every quarter. I agree with others who call for stiff criminal penalties for white-collar criminals.
1
Okay, so they are setting aside about $660 to cover the cost of fixing the cars. Of course, not all 11 million car owners will undertake these repairs, so that $7.3 billion is partly imaginary. Consider the cost of the time and inconvenience of that 11 million car owners in undertaking these repairs - time off from work, rental cars, aggravation and inconvenience. No one is covering those costs.
The USG asserted recently that they are going to renew (yeah, right!) its push to pursue white collar crime. Here's a $7.3 billion crime. Okay, maybe only a portion of that sum applies to cars sold in the US. Nevertheless, here's a massive effort to defraud and deceive state and federal governments and American consumers. When can we expect to see a perp walk on this one? And no $7.3 billion slap on the wrist. That's only a tiny portion of VW's revenues and still doesn't eat up their profits from last year - and this expense is going to be spread over several years, so the financial impact will be dissipated. Let's see people fined personally for their involvement in this crime and let's see real people - real white collar criminals - go to jail. And let's hope this is only the start.
The USG asserted recently that they are going to renew (yeah, right!) its push to pursue white collar crime. Here's a $7.3 billion crime. Okay, maybe only a portion of that sum applies to cars sold in the US. Nevertheless, here's a massive effort to defraud and deceive state and federal governments and American consumers. When can we expect to see a perp walk on this one? And no $7.3 billion slap on the wrist. That's only a tiny portion of VW's revenues and still doesn't eat up their profits from last year - and this expense is going to be spread over several years, so the financial impact will be dissipated. Let's see people fined personally for their involvement in this crime and let's see real people - real white collar criminals - go to jail. And let's hope this is only the start.
Who in the organization gives the OK to these ideas? What in the culture of these organizations thinks these ideas up? Is the who and the what questions just in the DNA of the market system?
The car's software could "sense an emission test.." Has no one recognized the weight of that statement?
Shouldn't we all be clamoring to know how in the ---- the software could DO that????
Shouldn't we all be clamoring to know how in the ---- the software could DO that????
1
One more reason to prefer Electric Vehicles (EVs) as the "Green Choice du Jour" over most other options such as "clean diesel" or higher mileage gas vehicles... No tailpipe emissions at all. None. Hence, no one can cheat on tailpipe emissions with EVs. Not rogue owners, not rogue manufacturers. So very disappointing this has to be said.
Do you know the net upstream emissions and downstream chemical waste per mile? Would be interesting to compare.
1 - Must check all other manufacturers as well.
2 - Must check all other engines as well.
3 - What did EPA know, and when?
2 - Must check all other engines as well.
3 - What did EPA know, and when?
Das Fraud
2
Thanks Padilla. I tried several times to place Das FrAudo, but it looks like either they did not get it, or it made no sense. Good to share the same sense of humor.
Why isn't the White House talking about criminal charges? Someone should be be going to jail for this--probably many people. This isn't just an EPA problem. It was a criminal act.
This is obviously a criminal act with intention to deceive. There should be fines on the corporate side as well as individual fines. Jail time also fits the crime to everyone involved. How much time do you think the software engineers put into writing the code for deception purposes and who ordered it?
1
Since the Supreme Court ruled in Citizens United that corporations are people too, will Volkswagen be deported as an illegal alien? After all, Volkswagen is an immigrant company/person who deliberately violated the law. I am sure that Volkswagen executives and drivers are no longer experiencing Fahrvergnügen. More seriously, I am rather irked at the software and systems engineers who devised this unscrupulous system. Their managers may have directed this effort, but they were complicit. They should all go to prison.
1
It has become the political mantra of the GOP to get rid of the EPA. Thank goodness this has not happened! Kudos to the EPA for holding Volkwagon's feet to the fire.
It wasn't the EPA who found this out but an independent group, the International Council on Clean Transportation, who checked emissions in real driving conditions, i.e. when the software couldn't figure out the car was tested. The EPA would still have been in lala land.
No doubt Consumer Reports will have a fundraising drive to instrument-up to do this.
Most likely no owner will be offered any cash back unless they submit to a reflash and free smog test. The cash back will be some sort of compensation for the associated performance hit. There will also be a time limit to get this done. If not completed, then the violation of federal (and state where applicable) emissions laws moves from VAG's hands and falls squarely on the owners. They will either be flagged by the respective DMVs and given an ultimatum at renewal time, possibly with a fine, or if they can somehow avoid that, will be forever stuck with this car. Those who reflash will also probably have the powertrain and emissions warranties extended to some reasonable period/mileage.
The few who will hold out on some specious grounds (ideologues fundamentally opposed to env regulation, or those entitled and indignant at the deception) will keep their cars as they are now, and go to extremes just to stick it to the gubmint.
For the vast majority of owners here in the US, hopefully there will be a few options to choose from, i.e., a buyback, or trade-in for an equivalent vehicle, etc. VW would prefer to keep the owners with its brand, so maybe they will bias their offers more towards trade-ins and reflashes, rather than buybacks.
It is just a car.