We have no obligation to grant asylum to any refugees, legal or otherwise. The US should unambiguously state that it will accept none of these migrants, and the EU countries should return them back to their homelands. Even if the refugees face death, it is not our problem. People suffer and die every day in the world, and trying to change that generally creates dependency or worse and is certainly a waste of time and effort.
1
"Even if the refugees face death, it is not our problem"? I bet you spit on homeless people. Saving a life, or lives, is a waste of time and effort. I wish your mother had a choice. You're a sorry excuse for a human being and I hope someone makes a lampshade from your skin.
2
How can the vast majority of migrants flooding Europe have a "well-founded fear of being persecuted based on race, nationality, religion, political opinion or membership in a particular social group" when they're of the dominant race, nationality, and religion within their respective countries and political opinions are rarely even expressed? The countries they flee are miserable countries to live in by Western standards, even when not at war, but most of the world's 7 (soon to be 10) billion people could make the same claim.
The failure to save Germany's Jews, <1% of the population and marked for extinction by the state, has little to do with whether W. Europe has an obligation to accept huge numbers of the majority populations of failed states all over the Middle East and Africa, particularly when most of them hold religious beliefs inimical to Western civilization (see Malmo). Can a rational person disagree with Hungary's PM: "From a European perspective, the number of potential future immigrants seems limitless"? As for them returning to their home countries some day, would you voluntarily return to Syria from Germany?
The unpleasant truth is that there is no number of asylums granted that is both big enough to significantly reduce the flood and small enough to not irreparably change Europe for the worse.
“The concentration of population growth in the poorest countries presents its own set of challenges":
http://www.un.org/apps/news/story.asp?NewsID=51526#.Vf7WfN9VhBc
The failure to save Germany's Jews, <1% of the population and marked for extinction by the state, has little to do with whether W. Europe has an obligation to accept huge numbers of the majority populations of failed states all over the Middle East and Africa, particularly when most of them hold religious beliefs inimical to Western civilization (see Malmo). Can a rational person disagree with Hungary's PM: "From a European perspective, the number of potential future immigrants seems limitless"? As for them returning to their home countries some day, would you voluntarily return to Syria from Germany?
The unpleasant truth is that there is no number of asylums granted that is both big enough to significantly reduce the flood and small enough to not irreparably change Europe for the worse.
“The concentration of population growth in the poorest countries presents its own set of challenges":
http://www.un.org/apps/news/story.asp?NewsID=51526#.Vf7WfN9VhBc
4
"A well founded fear of being persecuted based on race, nationality, religion, political opinion or membership in a particular social group." I don't know where in international law this definition is codified, but obviously the migrants from most Middle eastern wars don't qualify. These people are mostly apolitical Muslem Arabs with no real claim of political persecution. Rather they are just in the way of warring factions and likely to get killed as collateral damage. And while it might nevertheless be the humane thing to do to offer them refugue, many of these migrants are healthy young men who are simply exploiting the situation to seek a better life at the expense of western European taxpayers.
2
But historically, people were seeking asylum from persecution, not to subversively persecute your nation with their radical violent ideologies.
2
If we are going to quit offering asylum and aid to refugees of war, we are going to have to quit waging war.
6
As always the media is telling a narrative we viewer have a bit of a hard time to discern thoroughly, a place in our minds and conscience to interpret. Recently, there were journalists interviewing migrants that were describing themselves as "graduated, computer savvy, or otherwise culturally very well-grounded". So that raises a conundrum: are there "grade A" migrants taking the road into the unknown, and "grade B" poor desperate people braving death in crossing the sea on very insecure rickety boats rather than leading a life of gloom and despondency, fleeing war and conflict? I feel like being on inconsistent terrain here, in that even the ones interviewed, expressing themselves in good English, often say they do not know where they are going - just generally fleeing persecution, and wishing a new peaceful life - or trying to reach relatives in northern Europe. If you watch carefully so far the ones interviewed are almost always men; what, women are not allowed to speak? Exploited only and good to splash them on front pages? Um...I smell a little fishy business here.
7
Those who make the claim that we are a nation of immigrants, conveniently ignore the distinction between legal and illegal immigrants
Also the immigrants of old weren't a drain on current taxpayers. Today in the US we already have financial crisis partly due to underfunded safety-nets and partial welfare states- adding more burdens onto this system will only hasten the day of reckoning
Previously, asylum was related to people being persecuted by THE GOVERNMENTS in their host countries, and it would be insane to send them back to have their own governments continue to mistreat them
The flood we are seeing now, should be immediately returned or at a minimum settled temporarily somewhere like GITMO while their futures are sorted out; because the troubles they are fleeing from are the responsibility of their host countries to fix, not the American taxpayers
We have LOL at the nonsense notion promoted by Jeb! that Asian anchor-babies are our problem. The Asians that come here, are for the most part:
**Low Maintenance (we don't have to print everything in chinese for them, because most of them already know English, or pick it up very quickly)
**HighPerformers, mostly they are the top academic performance group
Contrast this with the influx from the south whose main output is HS-Dropouts, and an ever-increasing number of out-of-wedlock children for the taxpayers to support
THE CORRECT FIX for Syria is for the US & Europe to "Takeover" Syria as a 30yr protectorate & fix Palestine
Also the immigrants of old weren't a drain on current taxpayers. Today in the US we already have financial crisis partly due to underfunded safety-nets and partial welfare states- adding more burdens onto this system will only hasten the day of reckoning
Previously, asylum was related to people being persecuted by THE GOVERNMENTS in their host countries, and it would be insane to send them back to have their own governments continue to mistreat them
The flood we are seeing now, should be immediately returned or at a minimum settled temporarily somewhere like GITMO while their futures are sorted out; because the troubles they are fleeing from are the responsibility of their host countries to fix, not the American taxpayers
We have LOL at the nonsense notion promoted by Jeb! that Asian anchor-babies are our problem. The Asians that come here, are for the most part:
**Low Maintenance (we don't have to print everything in chinese for them, because most of them already know English, or pick it up very quickly)
**HighPerformers, mostly they are the top academic performance group
Contrast this with the influx from the south whose main output is HS-Dropouts, and an ever-increasing number of out-of-wedlock children for the taxpayers to support
THE CORRECT FIX for Syria is for the US & Europe to "Takeover" Syria as a 30yr protectorate & fix Palestine
3
Palestine has no connection to Syrian problems, except for the issue of granting citizenship to the tens of thousands of so-called Palestinians who live/lived in Syrian refugee camps. Only a tiny sliver of those Palestinians actually lived, as infants or otherwise, in mandated Palestine. Their descendants have made refugee status a means to try uproot Israel. Few want, let alone expect, to live there. Few even want to live in the West bank, and those Palestinians living in the West bank aren't interested in absorbing tens of thousands. Why can't people separate Syria, etc. from the Palestinian-Israeli issue?
2
Spoken like a blind supporter of Israel.
Syria is a border neighbor of traditional Palestine.
You say 'few want to live there', not under the terrorist, apartheid occupation the rest of the world allows them to live under.
No Justice, No Peace; it is simply disgusting that the American people allow our government to prop up and support this enslavement, while Israel continues year by year to steal more Palestinian Land, bulldoze more Palestinian homes, and kill more Palestinian people;
. . . while collectively we buy into the insane notion that the Slavemasters are the ones who are being 'attacked'.
One of, if not the single worst things we ever did in the 20th Century was vote in the UN to agree to allow a bunch of outsiders to come into Palestine and take over other people's land.
The only people who should have been allowed to vote on that were the inhabitants who were already living there at the time.
If the Truman wanted to "GIVE" the Jews a homeland, why didn't he give them something like the Badlands of South Dakota
BUT, the RealityCheck on this is: the toothpaste is already out of the tube on that injustice, and we can't go back and correct that horrific mistake, we need to move on and make realworld corrections that can be accomplished in the here-&-now
The best solution would be to take an eraser to the boundaries of the state of Israel, and go back to a unified Palestine, where everyone is equal, with a REAL democracy, based on scheduled elections, a Constitution
Syria is a border neighbor of traditional Palestine.
You say 'few want to live there', not under the terrorist, apartheid occupation the rest of the world allows them to live under.
No Justice, No Peace; it is simply disgusting that the American people allow our government to prop up and support this enslavement, while Israel continues year by year to steal more Palestinian Land, bulldoze more Palestinian homes, and kill more Palestinian people;
. . . while collectively we buy into the insane notion that the Slavemasters are the ones who are being 'attacked'.
One of, if not the single worst things we ever did in the 20th Century was vote in the UN to agree to allow a bunch of outsiders to come into Palestine and take over other people's land.
The only people who should have been allowed to vote on that were the inhabitants who were already living there at the time.
If the Truman wanted to "GIVE" the Jews a homeland, why didn't he give them something like the Badlands of South Dakota
BUT, the RealityCheck on this is: the toothpaste is already out of the tube on that injustice, and we can't go back and correct that horrific mistake, we need to move on and make realworld corrections that can be accomplished in the here-&-now
The best solution would be to take an eraser to the boundaries of the state of Israel, and go back to a unified Palestine, where everyone is equal, with a REAL democracy, based on scheduled elections, a Constitution
2
In discussing how many refugees the US accepts, the writer misrepresents an important matter of law and policy. It's true that Congress and the administration presently allow 70,000 refugees to be resettled in the United States yearly. However, there is no limit on the number of individuals who can be granted status as an asylee -- which is the category that the Central American children fall under, if they choose to apply after arriving in country. The Central American children would not at all be a backdrop to discussions about refugee resettlement. There's no limit on asylees. The piece has surely led countless readers to mistakenly believe that there is a limit on how many people can seek refuge at the southern border.
3
To those claiming that migrants/refugees will change cultures of host countries or "destabilize" them. A little reality check. Germany has 82,600,000+ citizens. The number Ms. Merkel anticipates, 800k, would be a mere 1% of the population - hardly likely to change the culture. The United States has 320 million citizens. If we took in 300k refugees (30 times what has been proposed) that would equal 0.1% of our population!!!
Please get a grip. I hate the attitude of so many commenters. Some suggest they should stay in Jordan or Lebanon or Turkey, but they are moving from there because the huge refugee camps are overflowing; people are dying from the cold or from disease in those camps; the children have no school; there are no jobs. Going to Saudi Arabia means a trek across the desert, which is not doable for most. As to them getting government money, well, yes, they need to eat and live in the short term, but most of these folks really, really want to work (a very small minority of every population, including our own, truly just wants to sit on its keester and be taken care of) - Germany has work opportunities.
Frankly, I am ashamed that our country is so afraid and unwilling to take in at least 300k (again 0.1% of our population, hardly an invasion).
Please get a grip. I hate the attitude of so many commenters. Some suggest they should stay in Jordan or Lebanon or Turkey, but they are moving from there because the huge refugee camps are overflowing; people are dying from the cold or from disease in those camps; the children have no school; there are no jobs. Going to Saudi Arabia means a trek across the desert, which is not doable for most. As to them getting government money, well, yes, they need to eat and live in the short term, but most of these folks really, really want to work (a very small minority of every population, including our own, truly just wants to sit on its keester and be taken care of) - Germany has work opportunities.
Frankly, I am ashamed that our country is so afraid and unwilling to take in at least 300k (again 0.1% of our population, hardly an invasion).
5
People who are fearful for their lives have a right to flee to the first safe haven. Syrians had a right to find refuge in Turkey, Lebanon, and Jordan. It is ethical that our country is providing aid for them in these countries until they can return to their homes or move on. The 2 countries sponsoring the wars -Saudi Arabia and Iran should resettle them.
There is not a similar war devastating the Central American countries. Yet, some individuals said that they feared for their lives in remaining there. By rights, they should have fled to the first safe haven. I just heard an American, on the NPR radio program “Travel with Rick Steves", who has been living in the Yucatan for several years. She described it as so safe that a great many Americans have moved there. The Yucatan is the one of the original Mayan homelands. I do not understand why the thousands of individuals who claim they fear for their lives by remaining in Guatemala and some other Central American countries, came (and still continue to come) all the way to the United States. Why didn’t they seek haven in Mexico, particularly in the Yucatan where they share the Mayan heritage?
The Syrians and other migrants who are crossing many countries to reach Germany and the other wealthier European countries are like the Central Americans who cross Mexico to ask for asylum in our country. They know which countries provide the best welfare benefits.
There is not a similar war devastating the Central American countries. Yet, some individuals said that they feared for their lives in remaining there. By rights, they should have fled to the first safe haven. I just heard an American, on the NPR radio program “Travel with Rick Steves", who has been living in the Yucatan for several years. She described it as so safe that a great many Americans have moved there. The Yucatan is the one of the original Mayan homelands. I do not understand why the thousands of individuals who claim they fear for their lives by remaining in Guatemala and some other Central American countries, came (and still continue to come) all the way to the United States. Why didn’t they seek haven in Mexico, particularly in the Yucatan where they share the Mayan heritage?
The Syrians and other migrants who are crossing many countries to reach Germany and the other wealthier European countries are like the Central Americans who cross Mexico to ask for asylum in our country. They know which countries provide the best welfare benefits.
9
Didn't Merkel turn away a Palestinian girl earlier, on TV? The girl was crying during a group interview because she wanted to stay in Germany and Merkel said not everyone can stay. Now she's willing to accept tens of thousands, but not that one little girl and her family? I suppose this will make her more popular?
3
I haven't seen too much wild life in my little corner of the world a small forest. I decided to introduce an abundance of food for mostly birds. Before I knew it, an amazing array of species of birds showed up including , pray and predator. They tolerated each other because there was plenty of food for everyone. Once in a while the predator will push the prey which moves around a few feet away.
I started to decrease the food supply gradually. The most aggressive had their fill and flew away, the smaller birds showed up to scavenge the leftovers. As the food decreased fighting became more and more aggressive. Members of the same species started to chase each other away to protect their own turf. The parents who lovingly fed their little offsprings, stopped feeding them. They took care of themselves first while the little juveniles were screaming to be fed.
I believe this to be true for humans to. As our food supply and green pastures decrease,whether they are caused by wars or natural disasters we will be faced with the same scenario.There is nothing moral or immoral about it. It just is what it is. A fact.
In the case of humans it is a more complex behavior with more variables. In the end it is the same as other species.
Sanctuaries in the past and the present were man-made to mitigate man-made problems.
I started to decrease the food supply gradually. The most aggressive had their fill and flew away, the smaller birds showed up to scavenge the leftovers. As the food decreased fighting became more and more aggressive. Members of the same species started to chase each other away to protect their own turf. The parents who lovingly fed their little offsprings, stopped feeding them. They took care of themselves first while the little juveniles were screaming to be fed.
I believe this to be true for humans to. As our food supply and green pastures decrease,whether they are caused by wars or natural disasters we will be faced with the same scenario.There is nothing moral or immoral about it. It just is what it is. A fact.
In the case of humans it is a more complex behavior with more variables. In the end it is the same as other species.
Sanctuaries in the past and the present were man-made to mitigate man-made problems.
3
If you want to invite guest into your house they should have to accommodate themselves to your norms of hospitality. Unfortunately history, in this instance, is against the notion that guests will behave as such.
6
Every time a war is begun, people are driven out of their homes and property by whomever wants to profit.
There is a great deal of profit from war weapons that results.
Can any of us be surprised about that fact?
Apply monetary punishments for war profiteering and watch for the rise of complaints to begin immediately.
There is a great deal of profit from war weapons that results.
Can any of us be surprised about that fact?
Apply monetary punishments for war profiteering and watch for the rise of complaints to begin immediately.
3
Emily Bazelon says the boat-people: "Over a decade or so, about 1.8 million Vietnamese refugees were resettled, blending into the human crowd, living out their lives in new lands".
Many of the Vietnamese came to France and settled down without any problems. On the contrary many French say they have problems with the Maghrebis - Algerians, Moroccans and Tunisians – and Africans, who make up the bulk of France's estimated 7 million immigrants. Many of them are second-generation migrants, and were born to refugee parents. But some have integration problems and haven't been able to shed the Muslim religion and identity of their parents. They feel torn between two cultures and countries.
Many of the Vietnamese came to France and settled down without any problems. On the contrary many French say they have problems with the Maghrebis - Algerians, Moroccans and Tunisians – and Africans, who make up the bulk of France's estimated 7 million immigrants. Many of them are second-generation migrants, and were born to refugee parents. But some have integration problems and haven't been able to shed the Muslim religion and identity of their parents. They feel torn between two cultures and countries.
5
It is more than feeling between two cultures - they are between two cultures. Even third generation immigrants have at least one parent from North Africa - and so they never feel totally French or Algerian/Moroccan. Most migrant groups are cut off from their country of origin - and select marriage partners primarily from the new country - but not Europe's Muslims. With one parent from the old country and one from France - with each generation - you are starting integration process again.
Some do break free. But the majority do not and show a reluctance to assimilate. A huge problem for Europe. Which is why many fear the newcomers will want to do the same.
Some do break free. But the majority do not and show a reluctance to assimilate. A huge problem for Europe. Which is why many fear the newcomers will want to do the same.
7
If we are serious about national borders and individual cultures we need to control immigration.....and if we are not.....if we are good with multi kulti.....we need to open the gates and see what happens when the whole world moves to Europe. How can one deny entry to the first world to one person and not another. The worst is to preach about national identity, brainwash soldiers such as our own about giving up ones life for ones country, brainwash others about patriotism and doing what is right for the nation and then follow a no borders policy. My guess is that in 200 years there will be no borders at all and no national states. There will be a very rich thin layer at the top and a mass of poor underneath but they will be able to live wherever they wish in squalor. English will be the lingua franca.
13
Nice job cherry picking quotes...re: asylum's inviolability.
Bunk... history of war / conquests...and authoritarian rule...is filled with
lessons for us all.
Most important... acceptance by stupidity or complicit misdirection & action on the path to " suicide."
Todays mid eastern migration issue - is failure of various politicians to
learn from history.... and sacrifice their very own citizens to potential scourges to follow. Misdirection of politicians actions... Without regard to the big picture & without focusing who's pushing the issues...marks this "invasion" for what it really is.
Invasion - is the motive. Western tolerance and conventions the target.
Invaders care little for the middle east Christian in their lands..
These invaders are at war with the West & their very own sects & factions. Intolerance/persecution/execution/deception/& war is their methodology. The religious jihadists of the region.. have targeted the " West". The "great unwashed " feel it..and more importantly realize the asylum acolytes --- are feeding chaos & intentionally causing increased problems.
Accommodation...tolerance ... are not a one way transaction.
A physical reaction and response is the only way to confront war & invasion.
Time to make those pushing this invasion ...to lose a little sleep.
Quote-- People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.” Orwell
Bunk... history of war / conquests...and authoritarian rule...is filled with
lessons for us all.
Most important... acceptance by stupidity or complicit misdirection & action on the path to " suicide."
Todays mid eastern migration issue - is failure of various politicians to
learn from history.... and sacrifice their very own citizens to potential scourges to follow. Misdirection of politicians actions... Without regard to the big picture & without focusing who's pushing the issues...marks this "invasion" for what it really is.
Invasion - is the motive. Western tolerance and conventions the target.
Invaders care little for the middle east Christian in their lands..
These invaders are at war with the West & their very own sects & factions. Intolerance/persecution/execution/deception/& war is their methodology. The religious jihadists of the region.. have targeted the " West". The "great unwashed " feel it..and more importantly realize the asylum acolytes --- are feeding chaos & intentionally causing increased problems.
Accommodation...tolerance ... are not a one way transaction.
A physical reaction and response is the only way to confront war & invasion.
Time to make those pushing this invasion ...to lose a little sleep.
Quote-- People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.” Orwell
12
Oh, please. Drop the paranoia. Hundreds of thousands of families from very much at war places like Syria have banded together to invade Europe? How did they communicate to decide that this was their mission?
I certainly agree that there are problems in integrating newcomers when they are very different from the host nation. The vast majority of immigrants to the US were white, Jewish or Christian, and spoke languages that were often at least a bit familiar to others. Like prefers like.
But Arabic speaking, Muslim believing, makes it much more difficult. For sure.
I certainly agree that there are problems in integrating newcomers when they are very different from the host nation. The vast majority of immigrants to the US were white, Jewish or Christian, and spoke languages that were often at least a bit familiar to others. Like prefers like.
But Arabic speaking, Muslim believing, makes it much more difficult. For sure.
1
Many, if not most, of these Syrian migrants seem to have some English, and many of them have enough education to be considered middle class. They are seeking safety and a better life for their children.
2
As Marigrow points out, these asylum agreements stem from a time when the earth was supporting less than 2.5 billion people. We have 5 billion more now. The population bomb has gone off. In my lifetime my state has gone from 1 to 8 million. Only realtors or developers would choose such a scenario.
As societies crumble across the southern latitudes, there are billions and billions who would prefer to be in the United States or Europe.
But our first obligation is to maintain the health of where we live. Fires, draught, congestion, crime make it a full time job and we haven't
This is not an easy choice. But as climate change bites, it will become more and more necessary.
The only way out of this morbid problem is a drastic reduction in population.
So what will it be?
Birth control, abortion or war, disease and starvation.
Not one of those Republicans last night is on the right side of a solution.
As societies crumble across the southern latitudes, there are billions and billions who would prefer to be in the United States or Europe.
But our first obligation is to maintain the health of where we live. Fires, draught, congestion, crime make it a full time job and we haven't
This is not an easy choice. But as climate change bites, it will become more and more necessary.
The only way out of this morbid problem is a drastic reduction in population.
So what will it be?
Birth control, abortion or war, disease and starvation.
Not one of those Republicans last night is on the right side of a solution.
14
The anti-immigration hysteria expressed by some of the posters would be laughable if it were not so dangerous. People have been repeating these same tropes for literally centuries--'they' will overrun us, take all our jobs, and destroy our culture." Yet history, social science, and economics show this is just unwarranted panic. Statistical information--not rumors and anecdote--show very clearly that immigration improves a given country's economy and that within a generation, all immigrants assimilate quite nicely. At bottom this is a primitive evolutionary-based fear and should be resisted as irrational. None of us are 'pure bloods' and we are all the product of multiple waves of immigration. The E.U. has a population of 503 million people; it will not be 'destroyed' by getting five million new people. On the contrary, it will be invigorated. Germany has a very high immigrant population yet is the most economically strong country in the E.U. That is not a coincidence. I only wish the US would take many more refugees. It would benefit us, as well as the refugees.
11
" all immigrants assimilate quite nicely." Um, not recently. Ask the people of the UK and France. Heck, most of Europe. Many of the Muslims are now second or even third generation and as events have shown, have no desire to become one of the host country.
8
You claim that "within a generation, all immigrants assimilate quite nicely" but in fact most of the recent terrorist attacks in Europe were committed by the children of Muslim immigrants. If you'd like to learn about how well previous Muslim immigrants to Western Europe are actually doing, here are a couple of articles to start with:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/story/2008/04/28/ST20080428...
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/muslim-refugees-and-the-cost-of-sweden-s-k...
http://www.fulbright.de/fileadmin/files/togermany/information/2005-06/gs...
The facts of the already conducted experiment on Muslim immigration in Western Europe are easily available, just not in the Times and other pro-open borders' sources.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/story/2008/04/28/ST20080428...
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/muslim-refugees-and-the-cost-of-sweden-s-k...
http://www.fulbright.de/fileadmin/files/togermany/information/2005-06/gs...
The facts of the already conducted experiment on Muslim immigration in Western Europe are easily available, just not in the Times and other pro-open borders' sources.
They are refugees until they get to their first foreign country. Every country after that they are economic migrants.
38
This is technically incorrect.
1
But sadly realistic.
Labels change as reality seeps in.
Labels change as reality seeps in.
2
that is simply wrong. when they get to their first EU country they must register and claim asylum as refugees. if that is granted they are in the EU. if not, they can be returned whence they came.
but the vast numbers of migrants, be they refugees or not, have inundated Hungary and other border EU states, who do not register the migrants because (a) they don't want to; and (b) they know the migrants don't want to stay in their country; and (c) they're understaffed for the job.
but the vast numbers of migrants, be they refugees or not, have inundated Hungary and other border EU states, who do not register the migrants because (a) they don't want to; and (b) they know the migrants don't want to stay in their country; and (c) they're understaffed for the job.
2
Let us not forget that the unlimited US welcome to immigrants was based upon the cruel policy of displacing and/or killing the native population. George Washington served in the British army in Ohio, fighting Indians. Abraham Lincoln's Homestead Act assumed that the Plains Indians would be eradicated. General Custer helped clear away the tribes for homestead access in Kansas before his fatal error in Montana.
American pride in our policy on immigrants should be quite humble, considering the sacrifices required of native Americans to make it feasible.
American pride in our policy on immigrants should be quite humble, considering the sacrifices required of native Americans to make it feasible.
13
The writer seems to be blissfully unaware of the UN 1951 Convention and 1967 Protocol on Refugees, administered by the UNHCR and to which all relevant countries are subscribed. The title question of this article is fully defined there - the only thing is for members to honour their obligations stated therein.
5
The obligation is for the refugees to be protected in the first safe country in which they arrive.
2
Those who clearly have first claim on asylum are refugees, not migrants. Indicative of the fact that many of those under discussion are migrants and not refugees -- an important ethical and legal distinction -- is the following from the Times article "Hungary Detains Migrants in Border Crackdown: "Migrants stuck at the border threatened on Tuesday to conduct a hunger strike. About 200 migrants chanted 'Open, open, open! and 'Germany! Germany!'"
Refugees would thank whatever God they believed in that they had made it to Europe, not threatening hunger strikes if not allowed to go to Germany.
Many, if not most, Syrians have a legitimate claim to being considered refugees.
In any case, it is fair to ask why the mass movement of people is not to some significant degree headed toward the Gulf states, Iran, Russia, or Asia.
Refugees would thank whatever God they believed in that they had made it to Europe, not threatening hunger strikes if not allowed to go to Germany.
Many, if not most, Syrians have a legitimate claim to being considered refugees.
In any case, it is fair to ask why the mass movement of people is not to some significant degree headed toward the Gulf states, Iran, Russia, or Asia.
28
They are not headed towards Iran Russia or China because 1) they haven't been invited 2) they know they would be turned away, with severity and punishment if necessary and 3) these countries are not democracies.
9
Forgotten -- Middle East Christians:
Recent spread of Jihadist and Salafist ideology, foreign to the tolerant values of the local communities in Syria and Egypt has also played a role in unsettling Christians' decades-long peaceful existence.
In 2011, it was estimated that at the present rate, the Middle East's 12 million
Christians would likely drop to 6 million by the year 2020.
Recent spread of Jihadist and Salafist ideology, foreign to the tolerant values of the local communities in Syria and Egypt has also played a role in unsettling Christians' decades-long peaceful existence.
In 2011, it was estimated that at the present rate, the Middle East's 12 million
Christians would likely drop to 6 million by the year 2020.
5
I have been desperately poor at times, yet never have I been so poor that I considered trying to sneak into Germany. These refugees are mostly middle class people who have no more options. The cold tone of the majority of these posters and their ignorant, racist nonsense makes me feel sick. Why don't the well-educated readers of the NYT use common sense? No one walks hundreds of miles, sleeps on the streets, and crosses oceans in rubber boats with infants and old people, unless they are truly at the end of any reasonable options.. They are leaving Turkey and Lebanon because the conditions there are nearly as desperate--have people not seen the footage of whole families sleeping on the street, children in camps in Lebanon forced to work in the fields for pennies a day? Sorry NYT posters, but the desperate of the world will not just quietly lie down and die any more--they are going to fight for their kids’ lives just like you and I would. Show more compassion or at least common sense. We have to help these people, as in "have to"--it's not optional any more. Yes, the process needs to be made orderly and rationalized, but Hungary's actions are purely an expression of the right-wing racism, which, decades after their enthusiastic extermination of Jews and Gypsies, is still very much alive. The EU needs to punish Hungary with an immediate embargo on EU monies to Hungary, and all the rational countries in the world, including the US, need to commit to taking refugees.
22
All well and good, Mr. Silver. This would be the ideal scenario. But even generosity of spirit and compassion for the dispossessed of the world have their limits. It happens when the people of a host country realize that their own standard of living is seriously threatened as a result of ever increasing demands made by the rising tide of people whom they once welcomed.
Heartless as it may sound, is this not human nature?
Heartless as it may sound, is this not human nature?
3
Wow, finally someone who doesn't just say "Let them eat cake."
2
The pictures in the NYT are of family groups. The reality is that the overwhelming proportion of the illegal immigrants are men of working age. There are a lot of economic immigrants mixed in with the refugees.
2
The catalyst for the migration of people from the Near and Middle East as well as from North Africa and the Horn of Africa is war and political oppression but what is driving the people towards Europe is the attractive refugee packages that are available there. If you have to leave your home why not try and go where your chances for a better life are greatest? FREE and GOOD health care, housing, transportation, education for your children along with a stipend for food and incidentals are great incentives. With wars in Somalia, Eritrea, Libya, Sudan, Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan, and political unrest in many others, Egypt etc. the number of potential refugees is enormous, and far beyond the Europes capability to absorb. One only has to look at France and its integration problems with its Muslim citizens from the Algerian and other past conflicts to see the threat that Europe will face if it does not recognize this reality.
Europe and America and all other countries do need to help these poor suffering people but the solution is to help them close to where they come from and not encourage them to travel thousands of miles to lands that have completely different languages, cultures etc etc. It would be safer for them and more could be helped this way.
Europe and America and all other countries do need to help these poor suffering people but the solution is to help them close to where they come from and not encourage them to travel thousands of miles to lands that have completely different languages, cultures etc etc. It would be safer for them and more could be helped this way.
17
Who Qualifies for ‘Asylum’?
Every refugee from Syria,Iraq and Afghanistan.
They are victims of Western invasion under the false flag of WMD, created by Bush and his zionist allies.
The WMD false-flag was created by Israeli Intel and passed off to Bush like a baton in a relay...
All you have to do is to tell the "World" they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same way in any country.
So,Be fair and bring those criminals to justice.
So, when are George W. Bush, Dick Cheney, Dick Rumsfeld, Condoleezza Rice, Richard Addington and John Yoo going to be brought to JUSTICE?
These WAR CRIMINALS must be brought to trial because they caved to israel and fought its wars against Arab and Muslim States..
They should be the ones sitting in the brig, not Bradley Manning.
One never heard of such names as: ISIS, Al Qaeda,Taliban,El Shabab,Hezbullah or even Boko Haram. All were invented by Zionists in order to promote Islamophobia benefitting israel. There was only Zionist terrorism before the creation of israel in 1947, led by Irgun and Gangstern terrorist groups whose leader was Manahem Begin who later became Israeli PM.
Every refugee from Syria,Iraq and Afghanistan.
They are victims of Western invasion under the false flag of WMD, created by Bush and his zionist allies.
The WMD false-flag was created by Israeli Intel and passed off to Bush like a baton in a relay...
All you have to do is to tell the "World" they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same way in any country.
So,Be fair and bring those criminals to justice.
So, when are George W. Bush, Dick Cheney, Dick Rumsfeld, Condoleezza Rice, Richard Addington and John Yoo going to be brought to JUSTICE?
These WAR CRIMINALS must be brought to trial because they caved to israel and fought its wars against Arab and Muslim States..
They should be the ones sitting in the brig, not Bradley Manning.
One never heard of such names as: ISIS, Al Qaeda,Taliban,El Shabab,Hezbullah or even Boko Haram. All were invented by Zionists in order to promote Islamophobia benefitting israel. There was only Zionist terrorism before the creation of israel in 1947, led by Irgun and Gangstern terrorist groups whose leader was Manahem Begin who later became Israeli PM.
5
Because if we do put that aside, and assuming that the need for younger workers is a valid concern, this is not the way, certainly not the best way, to accomplish that.
1
The conflating of refugee and migrant in most media coverage exacerbates the problem by reinforcing a public view that these are all people coming to take advantage of benefits and not people fleeing war and persecution. But the pace setter here has been Israel, which goes a step further and designates the 35,000 Eritreans there "infiltrators." This puts them under a 1954 law designed to keep terrorists out of Israel. Only three Eritreans got asylum last year out of hundreds who applied.
What Hungary is doing now—and what many east and central European countries are saying they will or will not do—is appalling. But so is the manner in which the Israeli state is treating refugees, many of whom not only fled persecution but then faced capture, torture and ransoming by bedouin traffickers in the Sinai. As in Germany and Austria, many Israelis are also turning out to offer help, but the politicians are in control and responding to rightwing nationalists there who differ little from those in Europe, except for their ethnicity. Let's not forget the people there in this discussion.
What Hungary is doing now—and what many east and central European countries are saying they will or will not do—is appalling. But so is the manner in which the Israeli state is treating refugees, many of whom not only fled persecution but then faced capture, torture and ransoming by bedouin traffickers in the Sinai. As in Germany and Austria, many Israelis are also turning out to offer help, but the politicians are in control and responding to rightwing nationalists there who differ little from those in Europe, except for their ethnicity. Let's not forget the people there in this discussion.
4
There is the concept of moral hazard, not just that 'you've made your bed, now lie in it' but that everyone SEES that you are made to lie in it. No simple answers exist.
The vast majority of those who are presently migrants in Europe -- and migrants long distances from their homelands everywhere -- are the one percenters of their societies. This is not lost on the Germans. They are actively poaching the cream of the human capital of societies gripped by conflict by accepting those migrants who have the capital, resources and connections to get to Germany. You don't see Merkel sending planes to land in Jordan, Turkey and Lebanon to pluck out migrants who could barely muster the resources to leave the war zone, now do you? Is it ethical to actively work to permanently resettle the people who will be most valuable to their society's rebuilding efforts when the violence ends -- while leaving the common folk to rot in camps near the border of their violence-plagued homeland?
And who is responsible for initiating the violence? These one percenters are now fleeing the places that provided the capital they are now using to flee. Having benefited greatly from the ancien regimes of their war-torn homes, they are taking the money and running. Is it ethical to permit this? Perhaps they SHOULD be returned to the war-zone to face the music that their complicity with repressive regimes earned them.
And being 'seen to lie in it' may prevent more war from breaking out elsewhere.
The vast majority of those who are presently migrants in Europe -- and migrants long distances from their homelands everywhere -- are the one percenters of their societies. This is not lost on the Germans. They are actively poaching the cream of the human capital of societies gripped by conflict by accepting those migrants who have the capital, resources and connections to get to Germany. You don't see Merkel sending planes to land in Jordan, Turkey and Lebanon to pluck out migrants who could barely muster the resources to leave the war zone, now do you? Is it ethical to actively work to permanently resettle the people who will be most valuable to their society's rebuilding efforts when the violence ends -- while leaving the common folk to rot in camps near the border of their violence-plagued homeland?
And who is responsible for initiating the violence? These one percenters are now fleeing the places that provided the capital they are now using to flee. Having benefited greatly from the ancien regimes of their war-torn homes, they are taking the money and running. Is it ethical to permit this? Perhaps they SHOULD be returned to the war-zone to face the music that their complicity with repressive regimes earned them.
And being 'seen to lie in it' may prevent more war from breaking out elsewhere.
8
It’s a kind of reverse Darwinism—the removal of the fittest. And since most of the escapees are male, it promotes sex imbalance in both sending and receiving countries.
The entire third world is attempting to take advantage of chaos in Europe to make it to Germany for "free money". Look at what's happening in Hungary right now. These are economic migrants who have decided that laws do not apply to them and if they are thwarted, they will riot wherever they are.
Until European nations can get control of this madness they shouldn't let anyone in for any reason. Every member of this invasion force should be turned away.
I have never felt so grateful for our two wide oceans.
Until European nations can get control of this madness they shouldn't let anyone in for any reason. Every member of this invasion force should be turned away.
I have never felt so grateful for our two wide oceans.
23
Don't be so relaxed. In a world where most of its 7 billion people live lives of unbearable hardship by the standards of the developed world and have smart phones to constantly remind them of that fact and passage from any point on the globe to any other is surprisingly cheap, any affluent country that does not enforce its border will soon be subject to the same pressures.
With global warming and exploding populations in poor countries, it's only going to get worse.
http://www.un.org/apps/news/story.asp?NewsID=51526#.Vf7WfN9VhBc
With global warming and exploding populations in poor countries, it's only going to get worse.
http://www.un.org/apps/news/story.asp?NewsID=51526#.Vf7WfN9VhBc
The problem with all the NYTimes stories is that they do not make clear the distinction between those who are legitimate asylum seekers "because they have well-founded grounds for fear of persecution "because of their race, religion, nationality, membership of a particular social group or political opinion, and is unable to obtain sanctuary from their home country or, owing to such fear, is unwilling to avail themselves of the protection of that country". Merely fleeing a war zone is not a PERSONAL fear of persecution for any of these reasons, nor is economic deprivation.
8
People tend to relocate to better territories - that's nature's law. Territories might be occupied, so there will competition for food and other benefits, that's also natural, and taking into account the fact that Muslim culture is quite strong due to it's traditionalism, Americans and Europeans are risking to lose their comfortable position, that is why our democrats are keeping frightened silence and our republicans have turned xenophobic.
2
This is more pandering from the media on behalf of illegal immigrants. This time they forgot to throw in the picture of the dead baby.
The writer seems to forget that the world is different now than when Romulus extended the invitation to migrants over two thousand years ago! There have been billions of people added to the planet; the geopolitical situation is much more complicated. To support a mass migration from an under-developed, backward country like Syria into Europe or the US is insane.
There should no "right of asylum" in the case of Middle East conflicts; these wars and religious conflicts have been going on for centuries; there is no end in sight. Do we want to transfer this culturally embedded hostility to developed nations?
The writer seems to forget that the world is different now than when Romulus extended the invitation to migrants over two thousand years ago! There have been billions of people added to the planet; the geopolitical situation is much more complicated. To support a mass migration from an under-developed, backward country like Syria into Europe or the US is insane.
There should no "right of asylum" in the case of Middle East conflicts; these wars and religious conflicts have been going on for centuries; there is no end in sight. Do we want to transfer this culturally embedded hostility to developed nations?
29
Morally superior maybe to claim that asylum "has no limits on the number of asylum-seekers", but it's pretty clear now, as it should have been before, that there are practical limits, particularly when many seeking asylum are really only looking for better living conditions. There's also the problem that Europeans are being asked to tolerate many asylum-seekers who would not tolerate them if the situation were reversed and who, based on experience, will prove how intolerant they are if they're allowed to stay in Europe.
22
The fatal weakness in the open borders approach to dealing with refugees is the failure to recognize that overpopulation is an increasingly critical problem in the world, and that at some point there is no suitable place for refugees to move to that is not already full of all the prior refugees that there is room for. Over population and over creation of refugees are the same problem. Hundreds of thousands of excess populations looking for new countries is an entirely different magnitude of problem than looking for new countries for a few hundred individuals. The current crises in Europe all too often treats the problem as if it were a few individuals when it is a much more difficult and far reaching problem of conflicting needs for living space.
Religious and petroleum wars are destroying countries caught up in the hatreds and greed of war, and are producing more refugees than can be digested by available resources. Have we no leaders capable of setting their ambitions aside and dealing with the need to stop the wars and get on with solving the mounting problems that threaten our survival?
Religious and petroleum wars are destroying countries caught up in the hatreds and greed of war, and are producing more refugees than can be digested by available resources. Have we no leaders capable of setting their ambitions aside and dealing with the need to stop the wars and get on with solving the mounting problems that threaten our survival?
7
Not every refugee is the same. And Refugee is not same as migrant. Migrant may have the choice. Refugee is not.
Chancellor Angela Merkel of Germany reminded the world that the international right to asylum ‘has no limits on the number of asylum-seekers.’ But She failed to outline where is the asylum destinations.
Asylum is usually the second country where the refugee can take the shelter an awaiting for official status as "refugee" providing they met the criteria under UNHCR Convention of Refugee until then they are recoenized as "displaced person". What we have seen so far is a massive migrants seeking for better destination in their choices. It is also show there is a disorganized of the UN bodies in this matter!!
Chancellor Angela Merkel of Germany reminded the world that the international right to asylum ‘has no limits on the number of asylum-seekers.’ But She failed to outline where is the asylum destinations.
Asylum is usually the second country where the refugee can take the shelter an awaiting for official status as "refugee" providing they met the criteria under UNHCR Convention of Refugee until then they are recoenized as "displaced person". What we have seen so far is a massive migrants seeking for better destination in their choices. It is also show there is a disorganized of the UN bodies in this matter!!
9
The distinction between refugee and economic migrant is often difficult to make in practice, but however they are classified, more foreigners from poorer regions of the world are likely to seek relocation in wealthier regions. An effective long term overall response to this challenge will need to include strategies for dealing with the failed states which are often key triggers for such mass exodus in the first place. It is clear that prefabricated regime change ala George W. Bush is rarely likely to be a viable strategy; indeed, the poorly planned Iraq intervention helped spawn ISIS which has become a major force for the current mass out-migration, particularly from neighboring Syria.
There are no easy solutions here, but among numerous other small steps, helping new immigrants to western countries (from troubled regions elsewhere) become better trained in the practical workings of democratic government and rule of law might well make it easier to then re-export such knowledge and experience back to those origin regions.
There are no easy solutions here, but among numerous other small steps, helping new immigrants to western countries (from troubled regions elsewhere) become better trained in the practical workings of democratic government and rule of law might well make it easier to then re-export such knowledge and experience back to those origin regions.
6
It was Obama's premature withdrawal from Iraq that destabilized the region. Obama spawned ISIS, not Bush.
Terrific article. If I had the wisdom of Napoleon's early years I would be calling back the military.
Not to point in but point out and carry the eleven year olds backpack to and from school.
America, you have some harsh neighborhoods.
Not to point in but point out and carry the eleven year olds backpack to and from school.
America, you have some harsh neighborhoods.
3
At this point, it no longer matters whether the "arrivals" are refugees or migrants. Allowing entry only guarantees more at the door tomorrow. Also allowing entry to so many only guarantees political, social and economic instability to the nation admitting them.
22
certainly, the precedent of the hearth as refuge predates homer's odyssey, but the refuge provided to individuals is entirely different from the refuge required by populations.
a state simply cannot allow an influx of large numbers of people outside the rule of law. this is, after all, exactly what has happened with ISIS pouring into syria. it's an intolerable precedent, and the fact that the refugees are already suffering only makes the situation more precarious for all involved.
the internal european dispute about relocation is a focus on the short view. the long view requires the military creation of a secure zone inside syria, sudan and somalia where people can live free of violence until the larger conflict is resolved.
taking in conflict refugees without addressing the source conflicts is not just precedent that the weaponization of humans as the hardship of mass migration will be tolerated: it's precedent to simply relocate the coming millions of climate change refugees rather than address the root causes of climate change. it's a miserably short sighted approach to a serious humanitarian problem, and wars left to burn are only part of the reason why the problem will only get worse.
a state simply cannot allow an influx of large numbers of people outside the rule of law. this is, after all, exactly what has happened with ISIS pouring into syria. it's an intolerable precedent, and the fact that the refugees are already suffering only makes the situation more precarious for all involved.
the internal european dispute about relocation is a focus on the short view. the long view requires the military creation of a secure zone inside syria, sudan and somalia where people can live free of violence until the larger conflict is resolved.
taking in conflict refugees without addressing the source conflicts is not just precedent that the weaponization of humans as the hardship of mass migration will be tolerated: it's precedent to simply relocate the coming millions of climate change refugees rather than address the root causes of climate change. it's a miserably short sighted approach to a serious humanitarian problem, and wars left to burn are only part of the reason why the problem will only get worse.
7
It doesn't matter what the label is. Migrant, asylum seekers etc. People migrate.
The failure of Western sentiment is, making the oil rich arab nations pay for it. There is not a single, Arab nation welcoming the Syrians, Iraqis or Afghans.
A question though, where are all these guns coming from? What can't we prosecute the governments that sell these arms or finance the arms purchases?
Doesn't the CIA, NSA, MI8 other western intelligence(oxymoron) agencies know? Don't they collect all the information?
The failure of Western sentiment is, making the oil rich arab nations pay for it. There is not a single, Arab nation welcoming the Syrians, Iraqis or Afghans.
A question though, where are all these guns coming from? What can't we prosecute the governments that sell these arms or finance the arms purchases?
Doesn't the CIA, NSA, MI8 other western intelligence(oxymoron) agencies know? Don't they collect all the information?
3
As it happens, tiny Jordan has taken in huge numbers of Palestinians, Iraqis and Syrians, as has Lebanon. And by the way, I think you'll find the US and a number of its closest allies are among the prime suppliers of weapons in the Syrian conflict.
The very notion of "refugee" has been distorted out of recognition. "Domestic violence" has been accepted as a basis for being a refugee! Apparently, it is not sufficient for you to leave your home or your town to escape your abuser. He has (at least when you most need an immigration visa) a special ability to telepathically find you, if you travel to the other end of Guatemala, hundreds of miles away, or even if you travel all the way through Mexico. Only arriving in Los Angeles, with its generous social benefits, will magically make you safe from your alleged domestic abuser. He will never find you there, where he also could get subsidized housing and food stamps and child tax credits. Or so you can claim.
9
Those who clearly have first claim on asylum are refugees, not migrants.
Indicative of the fact that most under discussion are migrants and not refugees -- an important ethical and legal distinction -- is the following from the article "Hungary Detains Migrants in Border Crackdown: "Migrants stuck at the border threatened on Tuesday to conduct a hunger strike. About 200 migrants chanted 'Open, open, open! and 'Germany! Germany!'"
Refugees would thank whatever God they believed in that they had made it to Europe, not threatening hunger strikes if not allowed to go to Germany.
Many, if not most, Syrians have a legitimate claim to being considered refugees. Nonetheless, one must ask why the mass movement of people is not to some significant degree headed toward the Gulf states, Iran, Russia, or Asia.
Indicative of the fact that most under discussion are migrants and not refugees -- an important ethical and legal distinction -- is the following from the article "Hungary Detains Migrants in Border Crackdown: "Migrants stuck at the border threatened on Tuesday to conduct a hunger strike. About 200 migrants chanted 'Open, open, open! and 'Germany! Germany!'"
Refugees would thank whatever God they believed in that they had made it to Europe, not threatening hunger strikes if not allowed to go to Germany.
Many, if not most, Syrians have a legitimate claim to being considered refugees. Nonetheless, one must ask why the mass movement of people is not to some significant degree headed toward the Gulf states, Iran, Russia, or Asia.
6
There is much that is inaccurate in media portrayals.
The 3-year old who drowned was, we are now hearing, not the child of refugees, but the son of a people-smuggler, who lost control of his boat. The boy had been brought along without a life jacket to induce others to travel likewise. His death is now supposed to convince the Europeans to allow more people-smuggling like that done by his father.
The "refugees" are heavily migrants from places like Central Asia, Africa, Pakistan, and Bangladesh. Look at the pictures! These are not Syrians, in many cases. Even the Syrians are not legally refugees, having crossed Turkey, Greece, Macedonia, and Serbia, all safe countries, albeit with less generous social benefits than Germany or Sweden.
The 3-year old who drowned was, we are now hearing, not the child of refugees, but the son of a people-smuggler, who lost control of his boat. The boy had been brought along without a life jacket to induce others to travel likewise. His death is now supposed to convince the Europeans to allow more people-smuggling like that done by his father.
The "refugees" are heavily migrants from places like Central Asia, Africa, Pakistan, and Bangladesh. Look at the pictures! These are not Syrians, in many cases. Even the Syrians are not legally refugees, having crossed Turkey, Greece, Macedonia, and Serbia, all safe countries, albeit with less generous social benefits than Germany or Sweden.
14
I think there is something more than hand wringing going on in Hungary. While they stand on the law and rules of how a refugee is required to register at the first place of entry to the EU the surgical masks and rubber gloves say something very different is going on. That is the visible sign of bigoted ideas of thoughts like; "these dirty migrants bringing disease and who knows what among us". I invented that sentiment but I see it in how they treat these people throwing food at them, lying to them to get them on trains then taking them to internment camps. It is not by accident that comparisons of this particularly awful choice of method to contain the masses of migrants, to the Nazi rounding up of Jews and other unwanted people as it is pretty much exactly what they did without the phony PR films showing us how good camp life is for "them".
2
Now, United States Navy and Air Force. The demarcation line has been set.
Its grey.
A good piece. History being what it is probably going to lose but thanks for the try.
Its grey.
A good piece. History being what it is probably going to lose but thanks for the try.
I do not know the long-run solution to what may become a tsunami of world-wide refugees, as conflict (some contributed to by us) and climate change (ditto) do their work. But when faced with the immediate presence of refugees, I believe we must follow the example of Mr. Richard Babley, who, when confronted with a child who had run away from abuse, famously advised that the boy be put to bed and then measured for clothes.
Really, what else can we do?
Really, what else can we do?
1
If you show up in Turkey, claiming that you were being fired upon, you are an asylum seeker.
If you hear that in Germany you get a house, food and money just for showing up, and you make the trip to Germany, you are an opportunist.
The people making the trip today and drowning in the sea, are doing so not with the hope of scaping war. They are doing so with the hope to get to Germany and jump on the gravy train. They even chant 'Germany! Germany!' at the gates.
It's a very large distinction.
If you hear that in Germany you get a house, food and money just for showing up, and you make the trip to Germany, you are an opportunist.
The people making the trip today and drowning in the sea, are doing so not with the hope of scaping war. They are doing so with the hope to get to Germany and jump on the gravy train. They even chant 'Germany! Germany!' at the gates.
It's a very large distinction.
12
Asylum my posterior. These people are gaming the system. They know and they rely on the naivete or the acquiescence of those so politically motivated. The refugees that came here from Central America were not fleeing anything but they knew the Democrats in power would bend over backwards to go along with their false stories and they knew once here the families would follow. As to why the Democrats would sell their country and their honor so cheaply is a question I cannot answer.
9
Angst over who qualifies for asylum has increased greatly with over population in developing countries putting pressure on states with more functioning, open economies with steadier populations and generous health, education and welfare benefits.
5
History also shows we have far more to fear from right-wing nationalists who in the name of ethnic or religious purity stir up hateful and selfish denial of refuge to those fleeing desperate need, than we do from refugees themselves.
1
Maybe so. But that doesn’t mean we have nothing to fear from the other.
Situations changed a lot since the laws of asylum where enacted. First, the population increased many times and with it the density in each country. Second, we now have Internet and Television, and people tell themselves, "hmm, life is better in that country, I should go there and live off those suckers money! Gee, Merkel is admitting by the millions, let's pack."
If someone is severely persecuted in his country is entitled to asylum. If he left his modest abode in search for a better life he should play like everyone else the greencard lottery or try to build a better life in his own country.
The Asian countries and The Arab countries are okay to maintain racial and cultural homogenity. Europe of the other hand, is not, by New York Times standards, but in reality it does, too, like any sovereign country.
If someone is severely persecuted in his country is entitled to asylum. If he left his modest abode in search for a better life he should play like everyone else the greencard lottery or try to build a better life in his own country.
The Asian countries and The Arab countries are okay to maintain racial and cultural homogenity. Europe of the other hand, is not, by New York Times standards, but in reality it does, too, like any sovereign country.
6
I have no doubt any number of Western leftists would insist that membership in Al Quada or ISIS or Hamas or Hezbollah or any other extremist group does not disqualify anyone from receiving asylum in a Western nation, if their story about being oppressed sounds good enough to any leftist intellectual.
8
"Prime Minister David Cameron of Britain invoked insects when he warned of a 'swarm' of 'illegal migrants.' ’’
The writer's ideological orientation is showing. Actually, "swarm" is cited in Webster's Collegiate as referring also to "throngs", including "tourists" and "meteors". It is not necessarily disparaging (as she is apparently attempting to do to David Cameron).
The writer's ideological orientation is showing. Actually, "swarm" is cited in Webster's Collegiate as referring also to "throngs", including "tourists" and "meteors". It is not necessarily disparaging (as she is apparently attempting to do to David Cameron).
8
Besides, what’s wrong with insects? Is the writer an entomophobe?
The hand-wringing to distinguish "migrants" and "refugees" is a natural outgrowth of the creation of immigration restrictions (and the modern notion of nationalism itself) in the latter 19th and early 20th centuries. Prior to that time, one simply moved (if one could) - board a ship in Liverpool (whether in a cabin or in steerage), get off in Boston, and go look for a home and work. Or ride your horse freely across the border - Seth Bullock, who became sheriff of Deadwood (as immortalized by Timothy Olyphant) was born and raised in Canadian territory, but at 18 went to Montana to look for work, and 4 years later was elected to the territorial legislature (!) before his move to Dakota Territory - all without needing to file visa applications or meet quota restrictions. And I warrant that America became great not *despite* the lack of immigration restriction, but because of them - because of the freedom of movement and immigration.
Once we began limiting immigration and restricting travel - which in the U.S. was in large part an outgrowth of anti-Asian sentiment on the west coast - then it was only natural that we would have to create exceptions for "refugees", as distinct from those "huddled masses" who merely wanted to have a shot at the American Way but were not longer quite as welcome to just "come on in".
Once we began limiting immigration and restricting travel - which in the U.S. was in large part an outgrowth of anti-Asian sentiment on the west coast - then it was only natural that we would have to create exceptions for "refugees", as distinct from those "huddled masses" who merely wanted to have a shot at the American Way but were not longer quite as welcome to just "come on in".
16
The New Colossus
Not like the brazen giant of Greek fame,
With conquering limbs astride from land to land;
Here at our sea-washed, sunset gates shall stand
A mighty woman with a torch, whose flame
Is the imprisoned lightning, and her name
Mother of Exiles. From her beacon-hand
Glows world-wide welcome; her mild eyes command
The air-bridged harbor that twin cities frame.
"Keep ancient lands, your storied pomp!" cries she
With silent lips. "Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"
Not like the brazen giant of Greek fame,
With conquering limbs astride from land to land;
Here at our sea-washed, sunset gates shall stand
A mighty woman with a torch, whose flame
Is the imprisoned lightning, and her name
Mother of Exiles. From her beacon-hand
Glows world-wide welcome; her mild eyes command
The air-bridged harbor that twin cities frame.
"Keep ancient lands, your storied pomp!" cries she
With silent lips. "Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"
1
We no longer have 19th and early 20th century population numbers. Most countries are full up. The resources to house, feed and educate
billions are not there. Perhaps China's one child policy was not so bad afterall.
billions are not there. Perhaps China's one child policy was not so bad afterall.
6
Prior to the late 19th century immigrants were welcomed because they worked and were not a danger to us.
After the revolutions in Europe many Marxists and Nationalists were going to countries that extended a welcome to them as refugees only to have many turn on them and seek change in our national culture. People like Emma Goldman chose to bite the hand that was feeding them and the Anarchists bomb throwers like Sacco and Vanzetti were deported to prevent them from doing harm.
After the revolutions in Europe many Marxists and Nationalists were going to countries that extended a welcome to them as refugees only to have many turn on them and seek change in our national culture. People like Emma Goldman chose to bite the hand that was feeding them and the Anarchists bomb throwers like Sacco and Vanzetti were deported to prevent them from doing harm.
1
Genuine refugees ask for asylum in the first safe country they arrive to. These people are shopping for benefits, hence they are economic migrants. Under the Syrian disguise there are also numerous migrants from Bangladesh, Pakistan, Algeria. They destroy their own identification documents in order to hide their origins.
And finally, all countries have a right to control their borders and to ask for their laws and customs to be respected by visitors.
And finally, all countries have a right to control their borders and to ask for their laws and customs to be respected by visitors.
122
Utterly bogus. A Bangladeshi or Pakistani would never pass for a Syrian, identity documents or not. 30 seconds with an asylum administrator who spoke even basic Arabic would immediately verify if they were Syrian or not. 30 seconds with a native (or fluent) Arabic speaker would also cancel out any Algerians doing the same.
I read about this a lot and have never seen any evidence of people trying to "pose" as Afghanis or Syrians or even Eritrean to get their asylum applications granted.
I read about this a lot and have never seen any evidence of people trying to "pose" as Afghanis or Syrians or even Eritrean to get their asylum applications granted.
2
People will do what they want most - all people. We all make decisions based upon the best likely outcome. Our immigrant ancestors didn't choose the closest country, but the one that was most likely (as they understood it) to provide an answer for their yearning for a more prosperous life. It is idiotic to assume that refugees or any immigrants would choose based upon proximity. Once they have sold all their possessions and determined to leave, why should they move to any country other than the one with the most promise? Do you buy the nicest house you can afford, or the closest?
Thank heavens that isn't the established method by which claims for refugee, asylum, or temporary protection are established. All countries do have the right to control their borders and ask that their laws and customs be respected, but they also have an obligation to take in those fleeing persecution or the well-founded fear of persecution.
The United States should automatically deny asylum to anyone who enters the country illegally. Asylum-seekers know they are supposed to present their application for asylum at U.S. embassies in their home countries or at legal ports of entry on the U.S. border. Instead, they game the system by treking a thousand miles across Mexico to reach the Rio Grande, even though Mexico has asylum laws similar to U.S. asylum laws. Instead of simply walking across one of the international bridges and presenting their application to U.S. Immigration and Custom Enforcement officials, they pay coyotes to smuggle them across the river. Once across, they seek put Border Patrol agents to surrender too, knowing they have succeeded in turning an application process into a time-consuming and expensive judicial process that can take years. They expect to be giving notifications to appear at hearings set in the distant future. They call these notifications “permisos.” The permisos permit them to travel anywhere in the United States without fear of arrest. When they fail to appear for the hearings, they know no one will look for them. The few who do appear, expect to be released by judges willing to pretend they actually believe that drug cartel gunmen are standing by in Latin American countries to assassinate tens of thousands of babies and infants.
66
Our borders were closed to general immigration by racist laws, enacted by racist people who were concerned that the white Protestant majority was threatened by Jews and Catholics. Our founders never imagined that we would ever stanch immigration and wisely never put any impediments in the way of moving in.
Some of us imagine that newcomers are less valuable than natives, hiding behind our racist legacy. We have made modest reform such as letting in some Asians and modifying the quotas to ameliorate some of the most egregious discrimination, but the general assumption that immigration must be limited continues with very little comment.
Some of us imagine that newcomers are less valuable than natives, hiding behind our racist legacy. We have made modest reform such as letting in some Asians and modifying the quotas to ameliorate some of the most egregious discrimination, but the general assumption that immigration must be limited continues with very little comment.
1
Under international law, specifically, under the 1951 Refugee Convention, denying asylum status to someone because of how they entered the country is forbidden. The reason is, asylum can only be sought from the soil of the country in which it is granted, so asylees have to get themselves here first to be eligible for asylum.
Refugees present claims in their home countries or come with their claims vouched for by UNHCR, asylees present them here.
Refugees present claims in their home countries or come with their claims vouched for by UNHCR, asylees present them here.
1
You may wish to do some fact checking as your statements about the US asylum process are inaccurate. Whether an asylum seeker comes to a port of entry or they turn themselves into a Border Patrol officer after illegally crossing (within 14 days of arrival) and announce they are afraid to return to their country the legal process a and right to see an Immigration Judge, if they pass a credible fear interview, is the same. The fact that the Judicial process takes years is the failure of Congress to adequately fund the immigration courts. There simply are not enough judges to handle the volume of cases. Asylum applicants often wait a year or longer for their final hearing date because we do not have enough Immigration Judges to hear cases. In Buffalo the calendar is out to 2017 and in Denver 2019 for an asylum seeker who turns their application in today. Nor are your statements correct about a failure to appear for immigration court hearings. Actual research data shows 83-95% of non detained asylum seekers appear for court. The higher percentage reflects more intensive monitoring such as ankle bracelets. http://cmsny.org/noferi-detention-asylum/ Finally you can't apply for asylum at a US Embassy, http://damascus.usembassy.gov/visas/political-asylum-and-the-united-stat... Not every country even has a point of access, such as a UNHCR office, to make a refugee claim to seek resettlement in a 3rd country. There is no straightforward overseas process.
1
As the climate change scenario plays out and water and food shortages push internecine conflict among peoples and between nations, "refugees" will become so common that the concept of asylum will be pushed to unfavorable limits.
More frequently these oppressed people will find their way blocked, doors closed, and asylum unavailable simply because the numbers are rapidly becoming so vast that the absorption of thousands upon thousands of the displaced will not be tenable.
If we only look at what is happening today, we see a strong trend in the direction of insular withdrawal from allowing "refugee" status to permit entry into any nation. The USA, Australia, Indonesia, now Europe and the middle east are all moving away from an older open-arms attitude to a new kind of xenophobic response to these peoples as intruders and opportunists. Caught up in the question of who merits acceptance only assures the nation of not accepting anyone for the time being.
Mr. Hathaway's model presupposes a world in some kind of harmonious consent sharing a responsibility to receive "refugees" & to share that burden among ourselves.
Indeed, today the idea of another Vietnam refugee resolution is only wishful thinking. I am afraid we will see a continuing parade of hopeless images as we fight to preserve our borders, our cultures, and our way of life from outsiders and illegal aliens.
Welcome to the world we have made wherein we tell everyone to go home or stay home regardless of their plight.
More frequently these oppressed people will find their way blocked, doors closed, and asylum unavailable simply because the numbers are rapidly becoming so vast that the absorption of thousands upon thousands of the displaced will not be tenable.
If we only look at what is happening today, we see a strong trend in the direction of insular withdrawal from allowing "refugee" status to permit entry into any nation. The USA, Australia, Indonesia, now Europe and the middle east are all moving away from an older open-arms attitude to a new kind of xenophobic response to these peoples as intruders and opportunists. Caught up in the question of who merits acceptance only assures the nation of not accepting anyone for the time being.
Mr. Hathaway's model presupposes a world in some kind of harmonious consent sharing a responsibility to receive "refugees" & to share that burden among ourselves.
Indeed, today the idea of another Vietnam refugee resolution is only wishful thinking. I am afraid we will see a continuing parade of hopeless images as we fight to preserve our borders, our cultures, and our way of life from outsiders and illegal aliens.
Welcome to the world we have made wherein we tell everyone to go home or stay home regardless of their plight.
16
Chancellor Merkel "reminded the world that the international right to asylum has no limits on the number of asylum-seekers". This "international right" was established between 1948-1951. In 1950 the world had about 2.5 billion people and was relatively well-provisioned with resources. In 2015 the global population is approaching 7.5 billion, an increase of 5 billion since 1950, and resources are increasingly scarce. All asylum seekers can no longer be accommodated without destroying the quality of life in receiving countries no matter what international agreements say. And if the governments of the west try to accomodate all that desire asylum they will wind up with the steady degradation in the quality of life the USA has experienced since illegal immigrants began to be tolerated, and legal immigration and refugee quotas were vastly increased, in the 1960's.
51
So, if we have to give up 1% of our standard of living, temporarily, to rescue a family without hope in their native land, we can't possibly manage? How shallow and pathetic a life it must be, without compassion or ability to empathize with those desperate to escape a brutal war. How pathetic.
Never mind that your facts fly in the face of reality. In 1950, tens of millions were just beginning to put their lives together after the tragedy of the war in Europe. Ask an Englishman or woman just how flush life was in 1950. I can recall that they were still rationing basic foodstuffs at that point. Germany was only beginning to rebuild the millions of houses they needed. Those were there will tell of a post-war recession in the US, and even then, smart people realized that a Marshall plan was not only in the interests of Europe, but America as well. Morons opposed the plan, and nearly kept it from happening.
The steady degradation in the quality of American life is a fiction. I've been here the whole time, and from my perspective, the degradation that has taken place is in the ability to imagine yourself in the position of the unfortunate. Fortunately some of us remember history, and learn from it.
Never mind that your facts fly in the face of reality. In 1950, tens of millions were just beginning to put their lives together after the tragedy of the war in Europe. Ask an Englishman or woman just how flush life was in 1950. I can recall that they were still rationing basic foodstuffs at that point. Germany was only beginning to rebuild the millions of houses they needed. Those were there will tell of a post-war recession in the US, and even then, smart people realized that a Marshall plan was not only in the interests of Europe, but America as well. Morons opposed the plan, and nearly kept it from happening.
The steady degradation in the quality of American life is a fiction. I've been here the whole time, and from my perspective, the degradation that has taken place is in the ability to imagine yourself in the position of the unfortunate. Fortunately some of us remember history, and learn from it.
I agree. Now, I hope you raised your voice when George Bush went into Iraq and got this whole ball rolling. I voted for Obama both times, but I never supported his Afghanistan push. It was an opportunity whose time had come and gone. My point is, who caused all this upset and how do we not continue to repeat the destruction and mayhem.
I agree with you that immigrants, refugees, and asylum seekers are the only possibly cause of any problem any country is currently facing. If they were eliminated, everything would be great.
2
There is a fear that most of the migrants and refugees are Muslims and will cause harm in the host countries. The Europeans seem to have difficulty integrating other Muslim asylees into their societies. We really don't know who the migrants and refugees are and what they did in Syria. They seem the better off like bankers and professionals who have the resources to pay traffickers thousands of dollars. In constrast, the world understood who the boat people were, why they were leaving. Both the French and the Americans had significant contact and involvement with Vietnam over many years. Then, there are the reports that migrants from 100 countries are mixed into the stream. Wouldn't the money being spent on the resettlement of a few be better spent helping the twelve million in miserable conditions in the Middle East? Mr. Kerry might get his 100,000 but what does it mean? We would be all be better off helping Jordan and Turkey.
50
Helping Jordan and Turkey shelter and absorb Syrian and Iraqi refugees sounds like a very good idea that few could object to. As does applying public pressure on the wealthy Saudis and Emirates to help their fellow Moslems. There should be a great hue and cry about this latter issue which is getting just minimal attention and that from readers not the Times' editorial board. Is there a reluctance to offend these oil rich states?
3
There is a fear that most of the migrants and refugees are Muslims and will cause harm in the host countries?.
Did you say the same when jews fled Europe during WWII?
Jews also have their religion and do not share many of the Christian people.
Did you say the same when jews fled Europe during WWII?
Jews also have their religion and do not share many of the Christian people.
1
Tom--you seem to think that the lack of assimilation is the fault of the host countries. That is just not so. Middle Eastern migrants have proven time, and time again, that they just want the benefits, not the language, the laws, or the culture. Maybe not all of them, but we don't know who any of them are, so how to decide which ones deserve asylum and protection? Which ones upon whom to take a risk?
7
Europe's Christian/Western identity is under an assault by third world Muslim invaders who have no intention of assimilation. This is classic Islamic Hijrah, essentially a slow motion invasion of the West. The fact that wealthy Gulf Arab states are not offering to help these migrants belies their support of the expansion of "Dar al Islam " , even at the expense of untold migrant misery.
Europe may have no choice but to use more militaristic means for support of their boundaries , Merkel be damned.