Wow~ i have always thought of Volkswagon as a beautiful product ~ this is like finding out your childhood sweetheart is a hooker .
4
It sounded too good to be true.
2
I’d been a happy Golf TDI owner for several years until yesterday, and a loyal VW driver for 12 years. I chose the TDI because of its great fit and finish, comfort, performance and handling (including GTI-based suspension and really fantastic acceleration for a diesel), and overall value. I chose this model also because of its green qualities (“passing” strict CA emissions) while actually delivering 45+ mpg highway. Now all too good to be true.
At some point in the near future, I will return my vehicle to the dealer mechanic who will detune the engine, and he will most likely return to me a crippled version of the TDI I purchased. Will it safely merge onto freeway traffic even?
The government will collect its fines. The lawyers will profit from a class action lawsuit, and I may – may – get compensated a few bucks here or there for the accelerated depreciation on my now non-accelerating vehicle.
We TDI drivers should insist on installation of a new engine (and for sure a free loaner vehicle while they’re installing it) - one that delivers substantially the same performance with true EPA and CARB compliance. Or be given a gasoline option if they really don’t have the TDI technology.
I recently had an emissions-related recall completed by my local dealer mechanic, which apparently was required prior to any subsequent smog check which is now due pending my registration renewal.
What a shame on VW. They may get what they deserve, but I probably will not.
At some point in the near future, I will return my vehicle to the dealer mechanic who will detune the engine, and he will most likely return to me a crippled version of the TDI I purchased. Will it safely merge onto freeway traffic even?
The government will collect its fines. The lawyers will profit from a class action lawsuit, and I may – may – get compensated a few bucks here or there for the accelerated depreciation on my now non-accelerating vehicle.
We TDI drivers should insist on installation of a new engine (and for sure a free loaner vehicle while they’re installing it) - one that delivers substantially the same performance with true EPA and CARB compliance. Or be given a gasoline option if they really don’t have the TDI technology.
I recently had an emissions-related recall completed by my local dealer mechanic, which apparently was required prior to any subsequent smog check which is now due pending my registration renewal.
What a shame on VW. They may get what they deserve, but I probably will not.
19
Who would believe it? The car knows when it's being tested/monitored and changes its behavior. When the test is done it goes back to its scofflaw ways, and pollutes with abandon. And from Volkswagen! Schämen sie sich!
Some "conspiracy theorists", I know deserve an apology.
Some "conspiracy theorists", I know deserve an apology.
10
They're killing me!
I have an Audi diesel, and I have been so self-righteously smug about low emissions and good mileage, I'm going to have to eat a lot of crow. And I hate crow!
I have an Audi diesel, and I have been so self-righteously smug about low emissions and good mileage, I'm going to have to eat a lot of crow. And I hate crow!
13
Biggest car maker in the world? Hey, anything worth winning is worth cheating to get, right Mr. Winterkorn? I hear there is a row of empty cells near Mr. Madoff that you and your colleagues might fit into comfortably.
9
I just traded in a Mercedes for a Toyota and someone's breathing (!) down my neck that everyone who can owns an Audi. They're all capitalist cheaters!!
4
Smell that greed? It's everywhere folks. From the minute Bush took office, these big boys smelled unlimited profits. They whine, moan and groan about too many taxes and too much regulation.
What's the alternative? Allow them to kill off Americans for lack of ANY regulations? Allow them to bilk consumers with their price gouging? All while they play their "FORCE" games and get the GOP to water down all regulations and corporate taxes?
The auto industry is just part of the contagious disease of corruption in this country. It has gotten so bad, no American can trust a bank, a business or a state or federal government without spending hours researching what's true and what isn't. This is democracy?
What's the alternative? Allow them to kill off Americans for lack of ANY regulations? Allow them to bilk consumers with their price gouging? All while they play their "FORCE" games and get the GOP to water down all regulations and corporate taxes?
The auto industry is just part of the contagious disease of corruption in this country. It has gotten so bad, no American can trust a bank, a business or a state or federal government without spending hours researching what's true and what isn't. This is democracy?
9
There's a simple solution to this: be a Republican and deny the problem. How simple is that? Volkswagen will donate a pile of money to your campaign.
7
Oh this is so ridiculous...and possibly corrupt from the EPA side as well. We are talking about a very low number of small engine diesel cars... and what about the millions of light/heavy diesel trucks in this country that have hardly no comparison when it comes to limiting emissions?! The EPA has unrealistic emissions standards in the US, and the only thing they will achieve is to continue to discourage this wonderful diesel technology in this country, basically making winners out of the hybrid/electric cars that may be as or more polluting and inefficient when compared to diesels. I am pretty sure there is a conspiracy to try to sink this technology in the US...I mean, you can get 30% more mileage with 1 gallon of diesel when compared to 1 gallon of gas...think about it...Maybe the law has been broken, but who made this law, and who lobbied to influence it to their liking??
9
Thanks to the EPA for specifying which VWs have this system! Time to go buy one of those VWs. Great idea for evading the needless emissions control rules imposed by the EPA. Using software instead of cutting off the catalytic converter. Great!!!
Déjà vu:
In roughly 1978 my parents bought a new VW Diesel Rabbit. On the invoice was a curious mandatory charge: a fee to pay for emissions equipment, in case it became required by the air quality regulators. It seemed like a scam at the time, and doubly so now 37 years later.
In roughly 1978 my parents bought a new VW Diesel Rabbit. On the invoice was a curious mandatory charge: a fee to pay for emissions equipment, in case it became required by the air quality regulators. It seemed like a scam at the time, and doubly so now 37 years later.
6
I like my 2014 Sportwagen, but after this I would not do business with VW if they had working teleporters.
9
So Volkwagen could be fined $18 billion for cheating software while GM paid 5 percent of that for lying about a flaw that killed people? Way to get your priorities right, people.
7
VW should be fined the full $18 billion. The company deserves it. More importantly, whoever authorized/condoned this should get serious jail time. Why is it that our federal government keeps allowing scofflaw executives like the ones involved in this off the hook???
7
I bought my first VW in 1981 and have only bought VWs in the 30 plus years since (other than a used Toyota Corolla bought with over 100k miles as a station car). Obviously I love VWs. If this is true I will never buy another VW.
11
This is shocking. The biggest reason for buying the diesel model was for performance and mpg. This will absolutely affect both. Shouldn't the buyers be compensated? It's like being told you are buying a horse and finding out it's a goat. Fraud, absolute fraud.
I debated for years and finally bought a Honda instead, but my heart was always with the VW Diesel. Now I have to go and buy my Honda some roses and apologize.
I debated for years and finally bought a Honda instead, but my heart was always with the VW Diesel. Now I have to go and buy my Honda some roses and apologize.
9
VW deliberately committed a crime against citizens of the
uSA. One could go so far as to accuse VW of terrorism by poisoning our air and lying to E.P.A. and would have continued if they hadn't been caught. I say a recall is not strong enough punishment.
uSA. One could go so far as to accuse VW of terrorism by poisoning our air and lying to E.P.A. and would have continued if they hadn't been caught. I say a recall is not strong enough punishment.
9
VW should be suspended from selling any cars in this market until this this deceitful practice has been corrected in every diesel has been repaired!
9
German engineering, at its finest. Quite innovative. Seems everybody, including VW and the other auto companies, is sick and tired of this bunch in Washington. I sure am.....Between California and DC politics, there would be no industry, manufacturing, or jobs left in the US in the name of over regulated "environmental protection." Guess they want us all to drive "golf cart cars, and eat sunflower seeds. Well, it just ain't so.
2
Now we know why the old ladies in the VW ad are so impressed by the speed of the VW diesel. Hope the old bags can still breath after the test drive.
3
"They made a business decision to pay the fine." Meanwhile California burns.
6
I owned five diesel VW's starting with a 1978 Rabbit. The last one, a TDI Sportwagen had a fault that VW knew about: a "winter" intercooler was available that prevented the engine from freezing. Though it was a known issue, VWoA refused to pay for the expensive repair I needed. I will never again own a VW, or an Audi or Porsche!
5
Groupthink. The profit motive. The logic of capitalism. Grotesque C.E.O. bonuses for illegal and reputation harming activity. Let the business school case studies commence.
When their customers discover that the "fix" will reduce performance and mileage, I really doubt they'll have it done.
Of course, that'll impact resale value, customer loyalty and VW's reputation.
But making their numbers was so much more important. Wasn't it?
Of course, that'll impact resale value, customer loyalty and VW's reputation.
But making their numbers was so much more important. Wasn't it?
2
This is quite disappointing to say the least. I purchased my Audi diesel for the mileage not to pollute the air. I feel like a full refund is needed so I can purchase a car that can do both.
5
Ho-hum. The result will be a fine, maybe a billion or so, after which Volkswagen's stock will soar as it will be more a big wet kiss on the rear than a slap on the wrist. The felons, up to and including the CEO, will not be charged and will incur no penalty, other than losing their jobs, which with a wink and a nod will magically reappear at another car company.
It's sickening, but if I let every happenstance like this make me sick I'd be permanently at death's door.
Dan Kravitz
It's sickening, but if I let every happenstance like this make me sick I'd be permanently at death's door.
Dan Kravitz
2
Something about the "standard" does not add up here. If a gas powered car gets 20 mpg and passes, how can a diesel powered car that gets 40 mpg put more out pollution out over the life time of the vehicle? If the gas powered vehicle put out more, then why is there a different standard for the diesel?
1
Why is everyone acting so shocked over just another clever way to make an end run around our laws and regulations. This is the corporate equivalent of finding a new position for sexual intercourse and we don't like it.
2
More government oversight and regulation, why can't we just let these corporations do their thing? Surely the market will always weed these bad actors out. The market would have discovered that subroutine by at least 2030.
1
Explains the the touted horsepower in new diesel car engines as seen in TV ads.
I believe they sell a chip for the Ford Power Stroke Diesel that does this same thing, or something like it and while it is after market, I don't think Ford is actively pursuing any Patent issues with the makers of this chip. Why not check ALL diesel engines for this software upgrade to 'open the gate on horsepower' upon driver's request.
Think any trucking companies do this? How about software in, and software out before inspection?
Corporate Greed is not owned by the USA but it is healthy and allowed to flourish.
I believe they sell a chip for the Ford Power Stroke Diesel that does this same thing, or something like it and while it is after market, I don't think Ford is actively pursuing any Patent issues with the makers of this chip. Why not check ALL diesel engines for this software upgrade to 'open the gate on horsepower' upon driver's request.
Think any trucking companies do this? How about software in, and software out before inspection?
Corporate Greed is not owned by the USA but it is healthy and allowed to flourish.
1
There should be more than a recall and administrative fine. This is intentional fraud on an "industrial" scale. There should be criminal indictments ensuing from this massive and willful fraud.
7
In an era of regulations with minimal enforcement, this is, in general, good news. However, we commoners (peons) would like to see that enforcement include a bit more than healthy fines; how about prosecuting a CEO in each of these cases, from Toyota through GM to VW. Given how thoroughly the Banksters escaped prosecution subsequent to 2008, this fine-without-criminal-prosecution strategy makes it progressively clear that the billionaire and multi-millionaire classes can get away with crimes, while the rest of us must still fear criminal prosecution for the most-trivial offenses. This reinforces the class-structure ("caste structure?) of US society and compounds the fact of income inequality. PROSECUTE!!
8
The EPA has always been a clown shoe in lieu of the fact that there really is no way to stop global warming short of junking the combustion engine. If that happened, the world would simply self destruct.
I am glad they have found this issue and will be forced to pay in some form of restitution from an environmental aspect. However, being an owner of one of these cars, who is representing the consumer? They'll fix the cars "free of charge", and from what it sounds like will hurt the performance and gas mileage. There are no issues selling a misrepresented product? I'm sure the answer will be nobody. Maybe VW will send a 10% off oil change.....
7
In addition to being outraged at VW, let's not forget to be thankful to the EPA. This is a hige demonstration of the need for vigorous and creative and relentless government regulation of the private sector.
4
There is nothing brilliant here...it's more like arrogant people running a corporation, who decided that the air we breath is not worth the effort. There was plenty of "effort" to circumvent the pollution controls in a very sinister way. I trust that the government will go after every dollar of penalty and will not settle for a dime less. As for me, VW is off my list of car choices.
4
These VW diesel cars have high mileage that higher costs for fuel are covered. Now diesel costs are closer to unleaded. Now VW diesel,owners must take their car in turn on the environmental system which will lowere the mileage. Perhaps VW should pay owners of these cars the cost of increased use of diesel?
If the trade-off to better emission control is loss of performance, why would the owner of one of these cars take their car in for the recall "repair"? Just asking. I realize some people might do it out of a sense of duty toward the environment, but most of us act out of self-interest.
WV just trashed the resale value of every vehicle, diesel or gas powered, they've sold in the US in the last 10 years. If they were willing and able to cheat on their diesel products, why would anyone assume that is the only place they did so?
Sadly, as this case, the recent GM case, and the Hyundai/Kia demonstrate, corporations view government regulation as something they don't have to obey, knowing full well that if caught they will receive a fine that is likely already budgeted for. As long as corporations are people when it suits them, free to contribute unlimited amounts to politicians on both sides of the aisle, free to use their power to write laws they like and ignore those they don't, this will continue to be the norm.
Sadly, as this case, the recent GM case, and the Hyundai/Kia demonstrate, corporations view government regulation as something they don't have to obey, knowing full well that if caught they will receive a fine that is likely already budgeted for. As long as corporations are people when it suits them, free to contribute unlimited amounts to politicians on both sides of the aisle, free to use their power to write laws they like and ignore those they don't, this will continue to be the norm.
3
VW is huge. Who else is cheating?
Mercedes and Porsche and others offer the diesel in cars. Truck makers use Detroit Diesel, owned by Mercedes, Cummings, Caterpillar, and others.
USA manufacturers offer the diesel.
Japan and South Korea compete with diesel.
Sadly, I trust none of them.
Farm equipment in diesel is made in Italy, Austria, Germany, South Korea, the USA, and many others. They seem to be trying.
Mercedes and Porsche and others offer the diesel in cars. Truck makers use Detroit Diesel, owned by Mercedes, Cummings, Caterpillar, and others.
USA manufacturers offer the diesel.
Japan and South Korea compete with diesel.
Sadly, I trust none of them.
Farm equipment in diesel is made in Italy, Austria, Germany, South Korea, the USA, and many others. They seem to be trying.
My wife, son, daughter-in-law, brother and I all are past and current VW owners, including two of the diesel models in the affected cohort. My current lease ends in January 2016; my wife's, in August 2016. If the facts in the recall article are borne out, or if there are credible indications that they will be, I can't imagine either of us continuing as VW customers, and we will strongly recommend the same to the others. This is outrageous on all levels and in all ways of corporate misbehavior.
5
It's very sad when a manufacturer of what is by all accounts an excellent line of cars has to resort to this in a desperate attempt to make sales.
There have been several articles (one here I believe) about the quality problems that VW has from its Mexico operations that affect sales in the US. This will only make things worse.
It's a shame because they're basically well built cars.
There have been several articles (one here I believe) about the quality problems that VW has from its Mexico operations that affect sales in the US. This will only make things worse.
It's a shame because they're basically well built cars.
This is criminal behavior by VW.
The repubs want no regulation of industry or protections for the environment. This is another among countless examples of what big business does, they don't care about anything but making more money.
Of course executives should get jail time, but it seems the only thing that has a chance of getting their attention would be a gigantic fine that really hurts. Money and the loss of it is the only thing they understand.
The repubs want no regulation of industry or protections for the environment. This is another among countless examples of what big business does, they don't care about anything but making more money.
Of course executives should get jail time, but it seems the only thing that has a chance of getting their attention would be a gigantic fine that really hurts. Money and the loss of it is the only thing they understand.
2
So much for the much ballyhooed "clean diesel" German automakers have been advertising so much in recent years. Diesel engines pollute far more than gasoline engines, but they are much cheaper to produce than hybrids and pure electric cars, showing once again car companies always choose profit over the public welfare.
1
So their hack was about emissions then VW should pay for those emissions by the tonne. All of these vehicles are in violation of the existing regulations at the time of sale, then all these vehicles should be pulled off the road until they have new hack proof systems installed. They would not have been allowed to be sold at that time. If this does not smarten up corporations to following the law of the land, nothing will. If it bankrupts VW then so be it. It is their behavior, criminal behavior that got them to this point.
2
Here's a big flash: corporations, especially including those on Wall Street, are cheaters and liars, unworthy of the public's trust until proven otherwise.
Flash 2: The regulations enacted into law to protect the public - whether from inhaling noxious fumes or having one's life savings used as a gambling stake - are under constant attack because those who do the attacking do not care about people's lives, period.
Flash 2: The regulations enacted into law to protect the public - whether from inhaling noxious fumes or having one's life savings used as a gambling stake - are under constant attack because those who do the attacking do not care about people's lives, period.
6
I hope that somebody in government has the fortitude to fashion a punishment that fits the intentional scale of the crime. Fines, certainly. But since this violates the social contract about as egregiously as a car company can, tracking this down to whomever approved this and sending that person to jail is necessary. Maybe this is a bold enough crime that some of our elected representatives will feel comfortable taking a stand and enact some legislation regarding punishing tariffs for a set number of years in cases where there is obviously intentional disregard for regulations and the public health.
3
One this is absolutely for sure and that is no one will go to jail at VW. Just like Toyota, which had an acceleration problem that it had covered up even after there were a number of instances involving deaths.
Since we now consider Corporations to be Individuals via Citizens United, shouldn't we put Corporations in jail when they intentionally break the law?
Since we now consider Corporations to be Individuals via Citizens United, shouldn't we put Corporations in jail when they intentionally break the law?
2
Absolutely no one should ever trust VW again. This is such an egregious and willful violation of American law, such a total disrespect for the environment, that we should all demand VW be required to pay the full $18 billion dollar fine and that all VW employees who were complicit in this illegal activity or who knew of it and failed to report be fully prosecuted under the law. This has been going on for years, enough is enough.
3
I wouldn t be surprised if the top management was informed by this decision to implant this device and also have been used in the European versions.
That means the investigation should be undertaken by the EU as well.
This may have huge implications since diesel engines have a much wider
use in the EU than in the US.
That means the investigation should be undertaken by the EU as well.
This may have huge implications since diesel engines have a much wider
use in the EU than in the US.
3
Careful now boys, the device is alledgedly fitted to VW diesel engines only not to the gasoline ones and I would like to have the the breakdown of which diesel powered models comprise the "nearly" half million subject to recall, since I have seen precious few of them in the North East US where we have a home. In Israel we have a Skoda Yeti, with a 4 wd 6 speed automatic VW turbo diesel which is a phenomenally well engineered OTR SUV which achieves over 40 mpg on highway. Its stability and road holding in all weathers and terrains is unbeatable in its class and meets all EU safety and pollution control standards.
Those whould like people not to buy VW products as "punishment" I assume would recommend the same for Ford, GM and Chrysler products, each of whom have knowingly sold vehicles with potentially life threatening defects upto the present.
I have no association with VW other than being a satisfied customer. In fact the only vehicle manuacturer I have ever worked for was Ford in the UK.
Those whould like people not to buy VW products as "punishment" I assume would recommend the same for Ford, GM and Chrysler products, each of whom have knowingly sold vehicles with potentially life threatening defects upto the present.
I have no association with VW other than being a satisfied customer. In fact the only vehicle manuacturer I have ever worked for was Ford in the UK.
I would think this should be a shameful embarrassment for them at home also, isn't environmental protection a much more important political issue to the German public than it is here? This is a German company convincing American consumers that they are offering solutions to our environmental problems with their German engineering culture but also there culture of higher environmental consciousness. This is basically fraudulent marketing of German culture.
1
"On Thursday, General Motors agreed to pay the federal government a $900 million penalty for failing to disclose defects in ignition switches, a deal that disappointed many of the victims’ families."
According to Barron's, GM expects sales of $155.7 billion this year:
http://www.barrons.com/articles/gm-or-ford-buy-both-and-ride-the-4-yield...
$900 million--paid out over 10 years, mind you--is less than 1% of GM's income for one year. This amounts to a minor cost of doing business for GM. Until the government gets serious about stopping this sort of activity, it will continue, because crime pays for these corporations. Volkswagen needs to have its corporate charter revoked, and any of its officials who knowingly participated in this "defeat" scheme should be prosecuted for criminal fraud.
Send a few CEOs to prison. Then maybe you'll see a real change. Until then--just more of the same in Corporate America.
According to Barron's, GM expects sales of $155.7 billion this year:
http://www.barrons.com/articles/gm-or-ford-buy-both-and-ride-the-4-yield...
$900 million--paid out over 10 years, mind you--is less than 1% of GM's income for one year. This amounts to a minor cost of doing business for GM. Until the government gets serious about stopping this sort of activity, it will continue, because crime pays for these corporations. Volkswagen needs to have its corporate charter revoked, and any of its officials who knowingly participated in this "defeat" scheme should be prosecuted for criminal fraud.
Send a few CEOs to prison. Then maybe you'll see a real change. Until then--just more of the same in Corporate America.
4
Auto company executives should not be exempt from criminal prosecutions and penalties for such violations, as they now are. Our jails and prisons are filled with the poor. Let's replace the poor inmates with corrupt executives,corrupt bankers, and the like. Enough of the free passes for the biggest perpetrators of crimes against us. Let's go after those who are doing the greatest harm, not those who have been oppressed.
2
This is a huge story and a good investigative reporter should be on it as it implies from the VW boardroom to their engineering staff to marketing in Germany purposely broke all sorts of US laws by installing this software to prevent exhaust detection in order to increase sales and more importantly get back into the California market which had banned diesel cars due to their high level of pollution. It is one thing to say our engineering failed to detect a problem in emissions but is another story to say we admit to installing software to circumvent true exhaust pollutants. Thank god the state of California is in on this to keep the feds honest in going after VW who has admitted to the crime.
2
Leaving the environmental and health aspects aside since most owners, like me, are wondering what does this mean for me.
So the fix could degrade engine performance, degrade mpg, degrade resale value, and in the meantime we have to pay the higher price for diesel fuel? A potential class action suit would need to be really strong to make me feel like I was not blatantly lied to and ripped off.
So the fix could degrade engine performance, degrade mpg, degrade resale value, and in the meantime we have to pay the higher price for diesel fuel? A potential class action suit would need to be really strong to make me feel like I was not blatantly lied to and ripped off.
1
It says that the Justice Department could impose fines of up to $37,500 for each recalled vehicle. Instead of sending that money to some nebulous government fund, that money should be used by VW to directly buy back every affected vehicle from the consumer at its original purchase price (including taxes and dealers fees). I love my 2015 Passat TDI, but my decision to buy it was based on test-driving it and comparing its specifications and performance to similar gasoline and hybrid vehicles. If the recall modifications to the vehicle are going to impact that performance, as it seems very likely that they will, then my whole basis for buying the car is invalidated.
7
The buyers of these cars were defrauded and were, unwittingly, made complicit in polluting the atmosphere.
VW should be forced to buy the cars back from the defrauded buyers at the original purchase prices -- with no deductions for age, mileage or wear and tear.
The resulting $12+ billion cost to VW, the world's second-largest car manufacturer, would be a lasting lesson to every car manufacturer.
VW should be forced to buy the cars back from the defrauded buyers at the original purchase prices -- with no deductions for age, mileage or wear and tear.
The resulting $12+ billion cost to VW, the world's second-largest car manufacturer, would be a lasting lesson to every car manufacturer.
5
If proven intentional, this speaks to issues related to corporate integrity. I had a recall notice awhile ago and the service response for reason was very vague. My car is a 2010 and it has cut out on the expressway several times after being repaired twice. Safety concerns were expressed to VW corporate. Third visit was to repair what was "fixed" 1.5 yrs earlier and at a cost of $800. Trading the car in and not for another VW.
1
This should not be regarded as sophisticated or clever as the software checked various sensors to determine "now in a smog test" perhaps MAP sensor for engine load, speed sensor to see the car is running at either of the two EPA test speeds and steering angle to indicate the car was steering straight ahead, as it would be on the smog test dynamometer.
The EPA may have believed no corporation would play to the test this way as the financial penalties would preclude this behavior.
It will be interesting to see how high this goes in VW.
Given that the source code must be under source control, VW knows exactly when and who was responsible for the inclusion of this code.
Will the senior executives use a variation of the television's Sargent Schultz defense, "I know nothing"?
The EPA may have believed no corporation would play to the test this way as the financial penalties would preclude this behavior.
It will be interesting to see how high this goes in VW.
Given that the source code must be under source control, VW knows exactly when and who was responsible for the inclusion of this code.
Will the senior executives use a variation of the television's Sargent Schultz defense, "I know nothing"?
2
Yes, the consumers were defrauded. And so was the general populace. But the dealers stand to lose a lot. They've already been hampered with VW's terribly slow, product cycles that don't give them an arsenal to compete with fast moving competitors. Most dealers have been desperate for help from Germany for years. Every year, they're told at dealer conferences. "wait till next year." That's been going on for almost 10 years now. And now this.
Plus, VW treats its dealers with aggressive tactics. Forcing the small points to invest millions in their facilities, while offering no viable plan to pay for those upgrades.
I think we're looking at a second class-action suit. VW dealers vs. VW of America.
The dealers are going to be hurt the most with this, especially the single-point operations, which don't have other brands to soften the blow. And that means livelihoods, jobs and families.
Plus, VW treats its dealers with aggressive tactics. Forcing the small points to invest millions in their facilities, while offering no viable plan to pay for those upgrades.
I think we're looking at a second class-action suit. VW dealers vs. VW of America.
The dealers are going to be hurt the most with this, especially the single-point operations, which don't have other brands to soften the blow. And that means livelihoods, jobs and families.
3
I would be interested to see an analysis of the actual emissions and to what past year standard that data aligns. Sure, Volkswagen is violating current clean air standards, but how bad is it, really?
There seems to be lots of senseless hand wringing over this. It occurs to me that in terms of pollution, our ever expanding fleet of engines, of any type, will outpace the pollution cuts made to those engines.
If polluting less is the real goal, it seems to me a required change in human behavior will not be a substituted by technological miracles.
There seems to be lots of senseless hand wringing over this. It occurs to me that in terms of pollution, our ever expanding fleet of engines, of any type, will outpace the pollution cuts made to those engines.
If polluting less is the real goal, it seems to me a required change in human behavior will not be a substituted by technological miracles.
2
This was a criminal act, the damage from which is enormous . The penalty if any, will be a tiny fraction of the profits that the act generated, and no one will go to the joint. Once again demonstrating the basic premises of Competitive Capitalism: Let the buyer beware, the primary motive and goal is "investor profit" fines, if and when we are caught, are simply a cost of doing business.
Corporations are above any Government Law from mere Nations.
Corporations are above any Government Law from mere Nations.
2
The article and comments thereto reflect a total lack of understanding of the pros and cons of diesel engines. They have major disadvantages for use in private automobiles. Unlike more versatile gasoline engines, they are efficient and provide adequate power at only a limited range of rpm's, which is why over-the-road trucks often have transmission cases offering up to a dozen or so forward speeds. Passenger cars can't offer this. Secondly, they are highly inefficient unless they've heated up, which is why one sees diesel trucks idling at truck stops rather than their being shut off. Because of these factors, diesels are ill suited in short drives and stop-and-go driving. The trick used by VWis a sneaky attempt to get around these disadvantages. That doesn't make it right, but it does prove that the diesel engine has been over-touted for use as a satisfactory low polluting passenger car engine. Diesel is an intrinsically dirtier fuel than gasoline and will pollute ore unless its engine is used within its optimum range of efficient operation. The pro-diesel hype that's out totally disregards these negative factors. Maybe your reported and his editors should have done further research before writing this article.
I'm not suggesting that VW's trickery is justified; just that the diesel has been grossly over-touted.
I'm not suggesting that VW's trickery is justified; just that the diesel has been grossly over-touted.
4
Own a 2001 Ford F250 diesel truck - 7.3 liter - a good engine. For years I have been advised by some other diesel truck owners to add aftermarket devices to my truck to improve performance. Have not done so. But have heard that some of these after market add ons make it difficult to pass smog inspections in California. Point is, there is a huge domestic add on industry thriving here in the US and it has been around for many years.
Also own a 2013 VW Beetle - turbo diesel. Get 42 mpg on road trips. Quiet, fun to drive, powerful 2 liter motor. My sense is that if it pollutes like EPA says it does, that pollution amount is more than offset by burning less fuel per mile. Not convinced that EPA is more concerned about air pollution than they are about finding ways to collect fines.
Also own a 2013 VW Beetle - turbo diesel. Get 42 mpg on road trips. Quiet, fun to drive, powerful 2 liter motor. My sense is that if it pollutes like EPA says it does, that pollution amount is more than offset by burning less fuel per mile. Not convinced that EPA is more concerned about air pollution than they are about finding ways to collect fines.
I'm really upset about this. I have a 2014 VW Golf TDI which has been the best car I've ever owned. Diesel fuel is cheaper (here) than the cheapest gasoline, and my fuel efficiency is only marginally less than my previous car (a 2010 Honda Insight). It drives a long time on a tank, and the best part is that it's really sporty. I love the quick acceleration. I also was happy I got the 2014 Mk6 Golf rather than the 2015 Mk7 Golf because the 2015 Golf requires a urea tank whereas the 2014 does not... and to make room for the urea tank on the 2015 model, the Golf lost it's independent rear suspension in favor of beam suspension (TDI model only). But now I'm worried how the performance will feel after I take my vehicle in to get updated so that it's not cheating emissions standards. It will maybe be a bit less fun to drive. Hopefully it means I'll get better fuel economy though? Either way I feel misled by VW. Part of my decision when I bought my car was because of how it felt during my test drive, but that was a lie. I guess I should at least stop criticizing Mazda for being unable to bring their diesel Mazda 6 to the USA because of performance issues. I guess if you're not cheating, it's not so easily done.
I would like to see more details before I am as judgmental as the tone of the NYT.
Having worked in powertrain engineering for half of my career, this is a complex area. The simple emission test routes have not kept up with the increases in powertrain complexity, and the EPA test cycles cause design compromises that make real world performance worse. Using route based information about traffic, terrain and learning driver behavior is a valid way improve shift controls, battery management, turbo charger, and aftertreatment controls to improve fuel economy without sacrificing performance and meeting emission requirements.
VW has admitted to the issue so I have no doubt that in-use performance is worse than the certification basis, but culpability could range from intentionally detecting the EPA test cycle as a fraudulent defeat device to (more likely in my opinion), a route-based management feature that was implemented with unintended consequences. My level of outrage (and whether someone should go to jail) is dependent on whether this is fraud or incompetence.
I am tired of this populist mindset that large corporations are run by evil over-lords that only care about profit and will destroy the environment and kill people to do so. I work with extremely smart and dedicated people that, like me, wake up and go to work every day to make transportation clean, safe, efficient, and affordable. I doubt this was a clear-cut fraud. No engineer I work with would allow it to happen.
Having worked in powertrain engineering for half of my career, this is a complex area. The simple emission test routes have not kept up with the increases in powertrain complexity, and the EPA test cycles cause design compromises that make real world performance worse. Using route based information about traffic, terrain and learning driver behavior is a valid way improve shift controls, battery management, turbo charger, and aftertreatment controls to improve fuel economy without sacrificing performance and meeting emission requirements.
VW has admitted to the issue so I have no doubt that in-use performance is worse than the certification basis, but culpability could range from intentionally detecting the EPA test cycle as a fraudulent defeat device to (more likely in my opinion), a route-based management feature that was implemented with unintended consequences. My level of outrage (and whether someone should go to jail) is dependent on whether this is fraud or incompetence.
I am tired of this populist mindset that large corporations are run by evil over-lords that only care about profit and will destroy the environment and kill people to do so. I work with extremely smart and dedicated people that, like me, wake up and go to work every day to make transportation clean, safe, efficient, and affordable. I doubt this was a clear-cut fraud. No engineer I work with would allow it to happen.
3
Selling vehicles with engineering flaws, intentional or not, is the norm for
most if not all automobile manufacturers. Denying responsibility and refusing to correct the issue is also the norm unless pressed by government agencies.
My wife and I recently purchased a 2015 Subaru Forester. Within a couple of
weeks I discovered mice had taken up residence in the spare tire well. A Google search "subaru forester mice" revealed that the problem was with vents installed in the rear quarter panels. The vents have openings large enough for mice to pass through.
Not wanting a surprise visit from a rodent while driving, my wife refused to
drive the vehicle until it is was fixed.
The San Antonio Subaru dealer kept the car for a week with the promise to
investigate and make right the issue. One week later we were informed that it was not Subaru's problem. This in spite of the fact that we returned with the loaner vehicle, an Outback, and showed them the mouse droppings and torn insulation in the wheel well of that vehicle as well.
By that time I had done enough research to realize that most auto makes had access issues with critters so buying another brand would not resolve the issue.
I am now running mouse traps in the Subaru and a 2000 GMC Sierra.
most if not all automobile manufacturers. Denying responsibility and refusing to correct the issue is also the norm unless pressed by government agencies.
My wife and I recently purchased a 2015 Subaru Forester. Within a couple of
weeks I discovered mice had taken up residence in the spare tire well. A Google search "subaru forester mice" revealed that the problem was with vents installed in the rear quarter panels. The vents have openings large enough for mice to pass through.
Not wanting a surprise visit from a rodent while driving, my wife refused to
drive the vehicle until it is was fixed.
The San Antonio Subaru dealer kept the car for a week with the promise to
investigate and make right the issue. One week later we were informed that it was not Subaru's problem. This in spite of the fact that we returned with the loaner vehicle, an Outback, and showed them the mouse droppings and torn insulation in the wheel well of that vehicle as well.
By that time I had done enough research to realize that most auto makes had access issues with critters so buying another brand would not resolve the issue.
I am now running mouse traps in the Subaru and a 2000 GMC Sierra.
I doubt very many people are going to bring their diesels in for the modifications,that will reduce performance and mileage.Best to do a huge fine on Volkswagen or kick them out of the country.
12
When I rented a diesel car a few years ago in France, I noticed that at night, with the headlights of the cars behind me creating a screen type effect, I could see large puffs of pollutants coming from the tailpipe when I was accelerating, much more than I expected from these new "clean" diesel cars. This leads me to wonder if the techniques apparently employed by VW are widely used by European car makers. Diesel is very popular in Europe because of the higher miles per gallon (or liter) that can be achieved and because the price is comparable to gasoline. I really wonder how many car makers over there might be faking it.
There has been quite a bit of writing in the automotive media about how slow diesels have been to be adopted over here. Perhaps we should be thankful.
10
They made toyota recall 10 million vehicles over that stupid 'sudden acceleraton' non sense. No mechanism was ever proven. It was just old ladies hitting the gas instead of the break, and they made them recall 10 million cars. Germany and Japan are two richest foreign countries they got the money to buy US products if they are worthy of it, but they will surely retaliate against this sort of non sense. US won't sell anything in those countries cuz of this, and Germany is very rich country.
1
Germany takes it's environment rather seriously. 10% of their elected politicians in the Bundestag are from the Green Party. There are certain ares of the country, including major cities where you are not allowed to drive a car that does not have a "green" environmental sticker. It's a $50 fine if you are caught doing so. These cars most certainly will not qualify. I suspect that the German authorities will be looking at this very carefully. Yes Germany is wealthy; Germans are also sticklers for following rules and laws...
2
Sounds like this recall will result in all these cars having worse performance. The owners should be able to get a full refund.
7
I applaud VAG for doing this. The hoops to go through to get superior diesel engines into small vehicles in the US is downright ridiculous. VW should file suit against the EPA for underestimating their MPG rating. Diesel jettas and passats are well known for surpassing EPA estimates by a long shot and are better for the environment than a Prius. I don't blame them for trying to play the system a bit. If anything they save the consumer money by limiting the amount of times required to refill exhaust fluid.
7
What an extremely uninformed reply. Diesel engines, if not properly managed, are huge polluters and you applaud VW for this? That's the kind of thinking that caused the mortgage meltdown. Would you be so generous if a company made a device so they could get away with polluting your drinking water by 40 times over the limit, or 40 times the legal limit for bacteria into your food? It is perplexing to me that the same people who will shrug off huge purposeful corporate crimes that effect the population as a whole will often be the "tough on crime" folk that want to throw the book at some low-level crook.
2
Volkswagen has endangered my life, your life, and the lives of everyone on the planet. Top management and perhaps the entire board should resign and be replaced immediately. People should go to jail, and fines levied to the fullest extent of the law. If it bankrupts a corporation as large as VW, so be it. Perhaps then other corporate leaders might think twice before knowingly endangering peoples lives.
19
our estimate is that VW will pay $40 billion in fines.
2
This is really disappointing news on so many levels; I have never owned a "foreign car;" my current car, a Ford, has given me 16 years of loyal service and just when I am looking forward to purchasing and Audi, stuff happens.
3
What Big Business will not do to increase profit at the expense of public health and safety not to mention the Commonweal . . . Shame! Shame!! Shame!!!
8
Oh the outrage at VW cheating on diesel emission tests, and nothing on Al Gore's boondoggle Ethanol program that has increased the cost of food for all Americans and Mexico without reducing oil consumption or air pollution. Indeed I'd be shocked if VW's cheating added more than 1% of the Ethanol program's contribution to air pollution. It would be funny if not so sad. And has anyone asked where the level needs to be before the emissions become a health hazard, or suggested that Obama fly a bit less to save the economy?
12
There is no comparison between the two. The Ethanol program is an ineffective program put in place to benefit politicians and their backers in industries that benefited financially from the program. The data showing just how stupid the program is has always been available to the public. You or I could have lobbied for changes in the program and/or punished those who supported its creation at the polls any time.
Volkswagen, in contrast, lied to regulatory agencies, to potential customers, and to customers for six years about their cars' performance. They cheated every person who purchased a car equipped with the defeat device by lying about how the car would perform, and about what gas mileage an owner could expect, while driving with the pollution controls engaged.
The residual value of every one of the cars they sold will decline as a result of this announcement. In addition to the criminal charges and fines Volkswagen should face for misleading consumers and for causing car owners to unknowingly drive cars that violated Federal and State emission laws, every person who owns one of these vehicles should have the option of returning their car to Volkswagen and receiving Blue Book value of the car published for the car on the day before the recall announcement was published.
Volkswagen, in contrast, lied to regulatory agencies, to potential customers, and to customers for six years about their cars' performance. They cheated every person who purchased a car equipped with the defeat device by lying about how the car would perform, and about what gas mileage an owner could expect, while driving with the pollution controls engaged.
The residual value of every one of the cars they sold will decline as a result of this announcement. In addition to the criminal charges and fines Volkswagen should face for misleading consumers and for causing car owners to unknowingly drive cars that violated Federal and State emission laws, every person who owns one of these vehicles should have the option of returning their car to Volkswagen and receiving Blue Book value of the car published for the car on the day before the recall announcement was published.
4
Why is it Al Gore's ethanol program? Seems like a lot of red states and republican senators and congresspeople are behind it.
They're both wrong. One act of temmerity doesn't excuse the other. Pollution aside, if I had bought a Jetta TDI, I'd be upset at the lower power and MPG that I'd now have. Glad I have an Altima.
I've considered buying a diesel Golf or Jetta wagon for several years. Not anymore! The owners who take their vehicles in to be reprogrammed are going to be driving very different cars when they get them back, and they won't be happy!
7
True, but that presumes the owners will take their cars in. Were I the owner of an affected vehicle, I would avoid my dealership for as long as possible.
which mean theyre 40x less gas efficient, but only while driving them
1
"They want to lay down the law, enforce the law and show they’re not going to tolerate cheaters."
If this were only true. I notice they are only talking about money as punishment when I really want to here individuals names and how many years they could be facing behind bars.
I believe that could send the appropriate message to some American business people too.
If this were only true. I notice they are only talking about money as punishment when I really want to here individuals names and how many years they could be facing behind bars.
I believe that could send the appropriate message to some American business people too.
8
I am a life-long Volkswagen enthusiast. I am not likely to stop buying VW products but, I find these allegations profoundly disturbing. IF they prove true, the company of my favorite brands needs a big time spankin' that really hurts ... enough to scare other companies.
10
German ingenuity indeed.
6
In the last few years I've become increasingly convinced that the electronic, logarithmic, and data-driven approach to seemingly EVERYTHING now is clearly and not necessarily an improvement over whatever the "old" way was. I know I'm neither onto anything earth-shattering nor alone in this.
But a development like this one is perfect confirmation: If we'd stuck with tailpipe sniffing for emissions tests, they'd never have gotten away with this.
So if necessity is agreed to be the mother of invention... perhaps opportunity is often the absentee dad? The Germans are clever all right.
But a development like this one is perfect confirmation: If we'd stuck with tailpipe sniffing for emissions tests, they'd never have gotten away with this.
So if necessity is agreed to be the mother of invention... perhaps opportunity is often the absentee dad? The Germans are clever all right.
2
VW never learns,, They did this once before , I believe . Over a PCT valve or something..
Hats off to Volkswagen. I suspect exactly zero VW diesel owners will take the opportunity to get this feature "fixed".
3
As you will notice, many or most of these cars are still under factory warranty. If the owner wants to take advantage of any dealer-provided service or warranty repairs, the car will have the recall service executed while it is in the shop. By law.
I wonder if you will be so cavalier if it turns out that a company has willfully polluted your kids school meals... Have you seen the pollution in Beijing? Want to start wearing a face mask down in Houston? Most of Beijing's blanket of smog is caused by vehicles spewing similar emissions to the ones that you give a "hats off" to VW for.
I wonder if you will be so cavalier if it turns out that a company has willfully polluted your kids school meals... Have you seen the pollution in Beijing? Want to start wearing a face mask down in Houston? Most of Beijing's blanket of smog is caused by vehicles spewing similar emissions to the ones that you give a "hats off" to VW for.
2
As the owner of 3 VW TDI's, I should say that I might be more disappointed than most. Honestly though... what I don't understand is the how FINES are determined or calculated by the Government. GM received a 900M fine, no one went to jail, etc and people actually 'DIED' because of their lack of regard for the law and intentionally hiding issues... Yet VW allegedly cheats on emissions and people are calling for jail time and $18B in fines for the company. I don't get it. Also...I agree with many others comments as to why the government gets compensated for these violation or cheats, yet as the purchaser of this vehicle..., I didn't get what I was promised... they may make some change that may affect the performance or fuel economy of the my vehicle which cost MORE because its a diesel, yet there is really no recourse for me?!? I'll be honest -if- VW did go to all this trouble to get around a problem, wouldn't it have been easier to just do it right in the first place? and didn't they know they would get caught sooner or later? Something just doesn't add up here.
11
Perhaps the software evolved this strategy on its own.
9
Skynet trying to take us out with pollution.
Appropriate penalty--forbidden to import any VW cars for 1 year.
10
It seems to me that everyone who has commented about how awful this VW imbroglio is and yesterday's news of GM being fined and the nearly daily stories of corporate fraud and other law breaking needs to ask themselves a basic question: why is it so commonplace? Why have we had Tycos and Enrons... It is not just the auto industry, but endemic through our capitalist economy. Let's face it... Corporations cheat. And they have CEOs.
Which brings me to my next question: why would the American voter ever even think about electing to the Presidency Carly Fiorina or Donald Trump? If all of you posting here tonight, with all of your outrage and all of your bile towards VW would just consider that skirting rules is the modus operandi for business, and that the thing they harp about most is regulations, you just might not be so shocked about this. And you wouldn't think of making a business mogul President.
Which brings me to my next question: why would the American voter ever even think about electing to the Presidency Carly Fiorina or Donald Trump? If all of you posting here tonight, with all of your outrage and all of your bile towards VW would just consider that skirting rules is the modus operandi for business, and that the thing they harp about most is regulations, you just might not be so shocked about this. And you wouldn't think of making a business mogul President.
21
People will not buy Diesels that have to conform to overzealous regulations. The EPA is going to kill high mileage, relatively clean engines in order to flex their muscle. Nobody wins. The Republicans are for creating reasonable laws that give companies adequate time to conform to, not crippling legislation that is excessively costly.
The political right in the U.S. carps all day about "job killing regulation." The political left decries people killing circumvention of those regulations.
Isn't there an old union song with the a lyric, "Which side are you on, boys, which side are you on?"
Isn't there an old union song with the a lyric, "Which side are you on, boys, which side are you on?"
1
I am a former Audi sales specialist, and not surprised by the finding. It is all about money.
8
If it is proven true, a very hefty fine (into several billions of dollars) and jail term for CEO must happen. Just a financial penalty will not fully deter these things from happening again!
10
Executives need to go to jail for these crimes.
2
I am sure that our highly competent Justice Department will seek the maximum fine due. Of course, this is sarcasm. Look at what they did with respect to the financial fraud of the mortgage debacle. I would not have these clowns represent this country on ANYTHING of any significance at all. We outsource everything; why not hire a big law firm on a contingency fee to go after them?
And the Republicans want to eliminate the EPA.
5
Probably a good idea.Why did it take years to discover this?Maybe some private firms could do better.
That's too funny... I guess I never thought of that as a possibility for emissions. In the tech world if you are being rated by benchmarks you do the same thing.
I am all for emissions but since I can no longer buy a Land Rover Defender in the US due to CA emissions and I don't live in CA... I would say cheat away.
I am all for emissions but since I can no longer buy a Land Rover Defender in the US due to CA emissions and I don't live in CA... I would say cheat away.
1
Regulations? We don't need no stinkin' regulations! Excuse the sarcasm, but there is one political party that thinks there is little or no need for most regulations.
4
Here's a good opportunity to impose a carbon tax.
5
I'm surprised that no person at VW blew the whistle. How many people at VW knew about this but said nothing? VW must have incredible internal powers of intimidation for that many people to keep their mouths shut.
And it wasn't the EPA that discovered the cheat. It was an NGO.
And it wasn't the EPA that discovered the cheat. It was an NGO.
5
Many must have known, but they were only following orders.
1
Elon Musk is having a good weekend already.
If I had millions of worshipers, as Mr. Musk does, every weekend would be a good weekend. Who says religion is dead in America?
"The Justice Department’s investigation could ultimately result in fines or penalties for the company."
Same old stuff, until actual humans go to prison, nothing will change.
Same old stuff, until actual humans go to prison, nothing will change.
8
This doesn't have anything to do with their unionization rejection in their Chattanooga facility, does it?
http://mobile.nytimes.com/2014/02/15/business/volkswagen-workers-reject-...
http://mobile.nytimes.com/2014/02/15/business/volkswagen-workers-reject-...
8
No.
Thanks for asking.
Thanks for asking.
The epa should forbid the sale of existing inventory, and state mva's should not allow any of the effected vehicles to be registered.
Can you imagine the hit owners are going to take when they try to sell these vehicles?Can you say Yugovair?
Can you imagine the hit owners are going to take when they try to sell these vehicles?Can you say Yugovair?
1
The article fails on the most important "W" -- the Why.
Why would VW create software to permit more NOx during everyday driving than during emission testing? Does higher NOx emission from a diesel enhance performance? Improve fuel economy? Reduce wear and tear?
Davenport and Ewing should did deeper and tell the whole story.
Why would VW create software to permit more NOx during everyday driving than during emission testing? Does higher NOx emission from a diesel enhance performance? Improve fuel economy? Reduce wear and tear?
Davenport and Ewing should did deeper and tell the whole story.
1
VWoA has always considered the US market an afterthought, holding back on European VWs & Seats that are successful. VW squandered the beetle's legacy with marginal dealers and high uncompetitive window sticker prices. Fudging their deisel's NOX numbers is a new low for VW
2
Volkswagen gathers ideas from the people of China to help innovate future cars.
If the software originated in China, zis becomes vely interesting for the people's car, looks like they are going to get vet.
If the software originated in China, zis becomes vely interesting for the people's car, looks like they are going to get vet.
1
As a VW owner can individuals sue them for misrepresentation?
3
I demand a full refund as a duped consumer! The public deserves recourse for being poisoned! VW execs responsible must be jailed! Boycott VW forever!
5
Anyone in the company who signed off on that needs to go to prison, and I was thinking about buying a Volkswagen, now I won't.
3
Nitrogen Oxide doesn't create ozone, it actually depletes it.
1
The fine will hurt the corporate financials and stockholders.
Big whoop.
Of course, nobody will go to prison.
Again.
What a farce.
Big whoop.
Of course, nobody will go to prison.
Again.
What a farce.
21
Heads would roll if Bernie were president.
2
I hope there is an emergency "stop sale" order to prevent any new sales of VW diesel vehicles already on dealers' lots?
4
Forget about the huge fine and recall cost, the reputation risk is huge. VW sold the idea of clean diesel to the public but this really destroys it if it is proven to be smoke and mirror. Unfortunately, it also kills diesel as an alternative
3
Well, in this case, just smoke, no mirrors.
1
There is only one way to impart justice in this scenario. No one should ever buy a VW again. Period. VW's corporate lobby and legal and political resources will see to it that they only receive a slap on the wrist and that life will go on for them and others of their ilk. The PEOPLE can send the message though, to VW and any who might consider perpetration of a similar crime against humanity. WE can take them out forever. I'm going to do my part, I promise, and it will be as simple as a boycott, costs nothing, painless, immediate, easy.
16
Payback time. No VW will have to pay for the market share taken from US automakers . While US automakers were playing dodge ball with our government on how file for bankruptcy at its own citizens expense , german's were actually making cars and selling them here in US. Our government is way too much invested in Detroit, they will crush every competition, just so they can protect and help Detroit get back market share, increase sales and profitability. Smog may kill you -yes, however , ignition switch malfunction in US cars ? - it's a sure thing.
Somehow my expectations of having a safe and EPA compliant vehicle are quickly diminishing.
1
Many commenters have called for jail sentences. The chance of jail here is zero. Many corporations lie and steal and otherwise violate the law. If we started to jail corporate officers and employees for doing what they're supposed to do -- i.e., make money for the capitalists who own the corporations -- the jails would be overrun. More to the point, there would be less profit.
Let me add another point. When a person is in jail, he cannot carry out his business. That's one of the reasons for jail: it's punishment to be out of business. Under our law, corporations are "persons" who have constitutional rights. However, unlike real persons, they cannot be jailed for a day -- or seven years -- or executed. Instead of putting them out of business for a day or seven years or forever, we merely fine the corporations -- derisory sums, usually -- and let them go about their business. We have no effective way of controlling their bad behavior -- and that's the way they like it.
Both VW and you, dear reader, are "persons". But VW is rich and powerful and cannot be put out of business, even for a little while. But you are weak and small and can be put out of business very easily. You can even be put in jail for years without being convicted of anything, if you haven't the money to make bail.
I'm maundering again. Somebody stop me.
Let me add another point. When a person is in jail, he cannot carry out his business. That's one of the reasons for jail: it's punishment to be out of business. Under our law, corporations are "persons" who have constitutional rights. However, unlike real persons, they cannot be jailed for a day -- or seven years -- or executed. Instead of putting them out of business for a day or seven years or forever, we merely fine the corporations -- derisory sums, usually -- and let them go about their business. We have no effective way of controlling their bad behavior -- and that's the way they like it.
Both VW and you, dear reader, are "persons". But VW is rich and powerful and cannot be put out of business, even for a little while. But you are weak and small and can be put out of business very easily. You can even be put in jail for years without being convicted of anything, if you haven't the money to make bail.
I'm maundering again. Somebody stop me.
13
The U.S. Justice Department said they will go beyond corporate fines on Wall Street firms and seek to charge executives under crimiminal statutes. Should work too for auto company executives. Let's see if the Justice Department and Attorney General, Loretta Lynch, are good to their word, if indeed the allegations against VW are true.
http://mobile.nytimes.com/2015/09/10/us/politics/new-justice-dept-rules-...
http://mobile.nytimes.com/2015/09/10/us/politics/new-justice-dept-rules-...
1
I'm not an engineer but who would be stupid enough to buy into clean diesel in the first place.
3
Oh, I should have known better. Guess it's not flagrant fraud afterall.
The kind of person who wants 280 lb ft of torque, a top speed of 132 mph, and 38 mpg in mixed use. (45+ on the highway in my BMW 328d)
I demand a full refund as a duped consumer!
The public deserves recourse for being poisoned!
VW execs responsible must be jailed!
I pledge to never buy a VW again!
The public deserves recourse for being poisoned!
VW execs responsible must be jailed!
I pledge to never buy a VW again!
14
But do you like your car? Most likely, but you're calling the prison for the person who made it for you. Very nice.
I am with you! Class Action lawsuit for all TDI owners in the making! Lets do this!
2
Why would u buy a VW/Audi/Porsche vehicle in the first place. There vehicles are unreliable junks!
Line up for the Class Action claim for the fraudulent sale of TDI cars that were knowingly touted as more emission-efficient than they truly are.
18
Governments need to get serious about the environment. All automakers should be prohibited from manufacturing cars that aren't electric.
2
Your suggestion ignores the fact that electricity is produced overwhelmingly by burning coal, oil, nuclear, etc., or destructive building of hydroelectric dams. When it comes to energy, electricity does not provide a free lunch. Free public transportation would be a better start to diminishing our problems.
I wonder how many people are actually going to bring in their vehicles to be "Fixed". If the original software provides better fuel economy and performance, you be the judge.
10
Exactly.. You'd be a fool to take this fix. Enjoy your awesome car, I've just been motivated to get one now. An older one...
Everyone should be required to bring their vehicles in to make them compliant with US laws. VW should bear the full expense of doing so. It's the right thing to do environmentally. If VW defrauded its customers by promising more than they could deliver, then they can refund the purchase price or make other compensation arrangements with the owners. Pretty straight forward. If I were GM, Ford, or any other manufacturer, I'd file suit for lost sales based upon falsified performance or emissions standards. To date, everyone has been hurt here except VW. I suspect that will change very quickly.
Owners will know that submitting their car for "repairs" under this recall will reduce their car's performance. Under this unusual circumstance, it is imperative that the actual fine be related to the number of cars that VW fails to remove the "cheat" software from, so VW will have sufficient the incentive to clean up this problem. Otherwise, they'll do the "Fight Club" "A * B = C" calculation and make sure owners never complete the recall.
In California, cars get a pass from emissions checks for the first six years of a new car - the state should rescind the pass for these cars. Similar measures can be taken in other states that have emissions testing. It goes without saying that the state needs to have a way to detect whether the car is cheating the test.
On top of that, the EPA should insist that the amount by which the cars emit excessive pollution be made up by requiring a reduction in emissions for all new VWs of 50% until the shortfall is made up. If the 40x figure is accurate, and no cars are recalled, it would take 80 years to make up the shortfall, so they better make sure those recalls get done.
In California, cars get a pass from emissions checks for the first six years of a new car - the state should rescind the pass for these cars. Similar measures can be taken in other states that have emissions testing. It goes without saying that the state needs to have a way to detect whether the car is cheating the test.
On top of that, the EPA should insist that the amount by which the cars emit excessive pollution be made up by requiring a reduction in emissions for all new VWs of 50% until the shortfall is made up. If the 40x figure is accurate, and no cars are recalled, it would take 80 years to make up the shortfall, so they better make sure those recalls get done.
5
I had the utmost regard for Volkswagen. It was my dad's favorite brand. Today, I was even considering buying a Volkswagen as my first car purchase. Not now. Did anyone at Volkswagen factor in the cost of loss of reputation?
It's one thing for a car manufacturer to have a defective part. They all eventually do. It's something altogether different to intentionally defeat an environmental standard. I agree with those people, in the comments, that just imposing a big fine against Volkswagen isn't enough. At least three Volkswagen employees need to go to jail - the employee who suggested it, the boss who approved it and the highest boss in the company, who knew about it, but did nothing to stop it.
It's one thing for a car manufacturer to have a defective part. They all eventually do. It's something altogether different to intentionally defeat an environmental standard. I agree with those people, in the comments, that just imposing a big fine against Volkswagen isn't enough. At least three Volkswagen employees need to go to jail - the employee who suggested it, the boss who approved it and the highest boss in the company, who knew about it, but did nothing to stop it.
3
Although a significant fine is important in punishing VW, I would also suggest that a temporary cessation of VW's ability to sell cars in the US would be the most effective deterrent in the long run.
4
Give no quarter to VW. Immense fines and criminal convictions. Use the proceeds to pay for the badly needed rail tunnel under the Hudson.
1
I shall boycott VW for the rest of my life. That's the least I can do. If others follow suit, so much the better. There have to be consequences for cheating.
5
"the Justice Department could impose fines of as much as $37,500 for each recalled vehicle, for a possible total penalty of as much as $18 billion."
Given the peanuts the Feds fined GM for knowing (for years) about faulty ignition switches, don't hold your breath for that amount.
The question now is, who came up with this scheme, who agreed to install it (it had to be at a high level), and who is going to get prosecuted.
Given the peanuts the Feds fined GM for knowing (for years) about faulty ignition switches, don't hold your breath for that amount.
The question now is, who came up with this scheme, who agreed to install it (it had to be at a high level), and who is going to get prosecuted.
Executives at Volkswagon made an economic decision to break the law. If they didn't get caught they'd win and perhaps they figured if they did get caught the fine would be less than the benefit. The Feds need to destroy this economic analysis by either giving a huge outrageous fine or throwing executives in jail. My vote would be jail as some of the executives might have already left the company with fat bonuses gotten from this cheat.
3
This is not a simple ethics or isolated legal breach. This is a corporate conspiracy to defraud the public and to violate USA law.
It is not "brilliant German engineering." It is quite simple to design and engineer. What is complicated, apparently not so by Volkswagen corporate culture, is to keep it secret.
Every owner of a Volkswagen in this mandatory recall will see their MPG go down. I hope every such owner sues for fraud and misrepresentation and wins the funds to buy a replacement vehicle from a reputable auto maker.
Shame on you Volkswagen. Your eventual elimination as as USA automobile supplier will be a worthwhile lessen for any othrs similarly tempted.
It is not "brilliant German engineering." It is quite simple to design and engineer. What is complicated, apparently not so by Volkswagen corporate culture, is to keep it secret.
Every owner of a Volkswagen in this mandatory recall will see their MPG go down. I hope every such owner sues for fraud and misrepresentation and wins the funds to buy a replacement vehicle from a reputable auto maker.
Shame on you Volkswagen. Your eventual elimination as as USA automobile supplier will be a worthwhile lessen for any othrs similarly tempted.
10
Corporations, and the executives that lead them, depend on the legal protection of limited liability. Despite repeated illegal and criminal behavior by the world's largest and most successful companies for decades, the worst they suffer is a 'fine' that is neither meaningful nor material to their financial well-being. Until the people responsible for these actions spend time in jail, are forced to disgorge their ill-gotten gains, and pay large personal fines, nothing is going to change. Volkswagen, General Motors, Johnson & Johnson, the list goes on...
1
I always thought highly of the brand but not anymore.
$18 billion penalty and a badly tarnished image is what they deserve.
$18 billion penalty and a badly tarnished image is what they deserve.
3
I am thinking we need to remove the corporate shield from personal liability. Or at least make it much much easier to pierce. Right now these CEOs and other high level execs reap the benefits of this kind of decision-making and the "corporation" pays the cost (and the public). Make it more personal.
3
Whatever VW thought they were gaining by deceiving the government and half a million car owners, it was a disastrous step. Even if they don't get fined the $18 billion they deserve to pay, their reputation is now completely in tatters. Who could ever trust them again?
6
If you read he actual research report by the university team, it is not nearly so dramatics or cloak and dagger as the news reports and press releases suggest.
The emissions are out of compliance in specific altitude and acceleration conditions in the road tests.
This is clearly a political broadside to start negotiations. It is likely the cars are out of compliance in real world driving. why? Because most vehicles are out of compliance with the EPA lab based tests under certain real world conditions
I used to work on similar regulations for fuel economy and most people don't know that the lab tests do not replicate real world driving
And unless I was reading the wrong source material, only a few cars were actually tested by the researchers
The emissions are out of compliance in specific altitude and acceleration conditions in the road tests.
This is clearly a political broadside to start negotiations. It is likely the cars are out of compliance in real world driving. why? Because most vehicles are out of compliance with the EPA lab based tests under certain real world conditions
I used to work on similar regulations for fuel economy and most people don't know that the lab tests do not replicate real world driving
And unless I was reading the wrong source material, only a few cars were actually tested by the researchers
8
A reasonable response. thank you.
....said VW's corporate defense lawyers and expert witnesses. The car was intentionally designed, tested, and marketed to deceive customers and defy the law only under some driving conditions. Wonderful.
1
Does the government not test cars before allowing them to be sold here? If not, they should, and charge the car companies for the test. The test should be performed on a pre-release model and then on randomly selected cars every so often purchased here.
Opening the source code would help, but as already pointed out, the deadly routine could easily be hidden to all but the most attuned eyes.
Opening the source code would help, but as already pointed out, the deadly routine could easily be hidden to all but the most attuned eyes.
Testing cars is not cost effective. This was a very sneaky thing to do by VW! I am glad they were finally exposed! We trust our manufacturers to no LIE to us. VW should pay the full fine and perhaps the people of the US should boycott VW and Audi's! Send these guys back to Europe with their tails between their legs!
Duh, if the vehicle is designed to performed differently when tested, what's the point of testing?
Jail time. Sentences in decades, not years. People will die due to VWs deliberate contamination of the atmosphere, so let the administrators responsible for this outrage be treated as the common criminals that they are.
6
Loathsome, yes, but not lethal. VW's market share is too low.
This is of course, repulsive, but unfortunately normal behavior for a corporation.
In my opinion, whenever there is a criminal act such as this at a corporation, we should just automatically imprison the top 100 executives (starting with the CEO). They should go to prison for at least 15 years each with no possibility for parole.
This should be part of law: if you have a multi-thousand employee corporation and someone does something egregious then the top 100 execs go to prison. Don't like it? Then don't take the risk of being a corporate exec. Do something else.
I can guarantee you this would have an effect on future wrongdoing at companies - wouldn't eliminate it, but would curb it significantly.
In my opinion, whenever there is a criminal act such as this at a corporation, we should just automatically imprison the top 100 executives (starting with the CEO). They should go to prison for at least 15 years each with no possibility for parole.
This should be part of law: if you have a multi-thousand employee corporation and someone does something egregious then the top 100 execs go to prison. Don't like it? Then don't take the risk of being a corporate exec. Do something else.
I can guarantee you this would have an effect on future wrongdoing at companies - wouldn't eliminate it, but would curb it significantly.
6
This corporate behavior is simply criminal. They deceived their customers by making demonstrably and explicitly false claims about their product for the purpose of increasing profit by increasing sales. I would call this stealing. I am not a lawyer but this seems to satisfy any definition of fraud that I can find. Fines are necessary but not sufficient. The individuals who conspired to commit this crime, likely identifiable, should be punished to the fullest extent of the law. I believe that corporate crime is rampant because individual actors are rarely if ever held accountable, only their corporate entity. If any attorneys or accountants signed off on this scheme, they should be held accountable as well. This criminal, destructive behavior will not stop until individual corporate actors are held accountable for their crimes.
3
So the question is....how will any fix affect my 2015 Passat TDI here in California? Will I see my gas mileage plummet, power loss or is it correctable at all?
2
OK, if you have one of the recalled VW's and you take it in to the dealer, be prepared to find that the performance has been greatly degraded after the update. They didn't risk these fines without a reason.
1
Incredible, unbelievable, and arrogant fraud. Hopefully this will cost VW billions and billions.
5
Here again we have the government taking anticompetitive stance to protect the US auto industry. Shameful.
1
Milan,
VW committed fraud. This isn't about a protectionist government stance.
Makes me glad I bought a Nissan Altima instead of the Jetta TDI.
VW committed fraud. This isn't about a protectionist government stance.
Makes me glad I bought a Nissan Altima instead of the Jetta TDI.
2
Or just maybe the government is protecting consumers and the health of all of us by enforcing the laws that all other auto manufacturers, US or foreign, have to follow? Intentionally circumventing emissions laws (to which Volkswagen has admitted) has nothing to do with competition and protectionism, and everything to do with criminal activity by a major corporation. I would expect the EPA to treat a US manufacturer exactly the same if found to be engaging in this deception. You should be thanking the EPA, not criticizing them.
You read the article, didn't you? The part about how VW cheated and pumped out big-time emissions, while pretending not to?
What part of that involves an anticompetitive stance?
What part of that involves an anticompetitive stance?
3
Nice going, VW. Hope it costs you the maximum of approximately $18,750,000 in fines.
3
You mean 18,750,000,000
Billions, not millions. $18,750,000,000
The public has no idea what they are dealing with here. VW is the 1st or 2nd largest car company on the planet. There won't be any 18B fine any time soon. The US is not their primary market. People are appalled that the car emits pollution, duh no kidding. Go walk to work. Grow up.
5
Wow. 2009-2015. That crack Federal agency that was supposed to monitor such things found out only after other countries and non-governmental organizations tipped them off. Maybe we can do away with this part of the EPA and hire it out to people that can do the job.
3
Yeah, let's contract the EPA out to one of those corporations that run charter schools. They probably know as much about examining emissions control software as they do about running schools, i.e. zero.
It's fraud. VW designed the software specifically to evade the EPA's testing.
Guess what? The police also don't catch every crime. Often, people actually report crimes rather than the police catching every crime as it happens.
Guess what? The police also don't catch every crime. Often, people actually report crimes rather than the police catching every crime as it happens.
1
Or perhaps we could fund them appropriately for the job they have to do.
I wish that I could say that I am surprised and shocked by this,but sadly no! When the "bottom line" is the primary or only concern of the corporate elite and when a CEO's compensation is tied directly to short term improvements in profits then what else can we expect. Unfortunately this is not the first German corporation to play fast and loose with the rule of law. The Siemens corporation for years has been a supplier of advanced technology via back doors to countries seeking to become members of the nuclear group of nations - big players in the moves by India and Pakistan and likely North Korea and Iran to get the technology to go Nuclear. When corporation get "bigger than countries and when profits become more important than people then this is what we get.
6
This is fraud on VW's part. I'm sure the fine will be reduced by quite a bit in exchange for promises and some political contributions, though.
All will be fine. After all, if GM only had to cough up $900mm for killing 140 people, VW's fine ought to be less for not killing anyone, right?
The real penalty they'll pay will be when they're forced to fix and keep fixing those diesel cars' exhaust systems when they keep breaking.
Let's see - figure it's a $1500 repair and they'll likely be on the hook for repairing each car twice in its life. That means 500k cars x $3k in repairs comes to $1.5 billion. In repairs alone.
All will be fine. After all, if GM only had to cough up $900mm for killing 140 people, VW's fine ought to be less for not killing anyone, right?
The real penalty they'll pay will be when they're forced to fix and keep fixing those diesel cars' exhaust systems when they keep breaking.
Let's see - figure it's a $1500 repair and they'll likely be on the hook for repairing each car twice in its life. That means 500k cars x $3k in repairs comes to $1.5 billion. In repairs alone.
1
I read the entire article and nowhere did it state that this exhaust system was failing. If they aren't failing what makes one think they'll fail twice?
This is no surprise to my family. Many years back our experience with Volkswagen showed they did not care about their customers. We had several issues with their new vehicles. Getting them to stand by their warranties was next to impossible. We had to bring lawsuits against them to honor their new vehicle warranties. We won both of them and eventually they paid out but customers should not have to force a company to stand by their warranty. No one in our family buys Volkswagen products anymore. By the way Chrysler and GMC are terrible too.
4
I have owned Toyota, Ford, Honda, Chrysler, GM, Saab, Mercedes, BMW, Audi, Jaguar, Acura, & Porsche. If you are going to limit your automotive purchases to companies that care about their customers, get a bike.
1
They should start by imposing massive fines on them for polluting the air then make them suspend all new car sales in the U.S. for the next 5 years and block motor vehicle registrations of new cars for starters. This severe crime deserves severe punishment.
4
Who, pray tell, is going to have this recall installed on their vehicle unless failing to do so will be detected by some emissions test? Some states the test apparatus "calls home" to the state boss to have the data verified, but I suspect that this isn't the norm...
Maybe a fine should be issued each year for however many vehicles have not had their performance degraded to meet emissions requirements-- right up until the ceiling of 37000+ dollars per vehicle is reached.
Maybe a fine should be issued each year for however many vehicles have not had their performance degraded to meet emissions requirements-- right up until the ceiling of 37000+ dollars per vehicle is reached.
3
So, if the "Public" is harmed by this, why doesn't the 18 billion go to the harmed public instead of a greedy tax hungry federal government, where the money will be wasted purchasing more votes?
5
The federal government is the embodiment of the people. Much more can be achieved by using the money collectively.
1
I hope you're kidding, but I suspect you're not.
See, this is the problem with the whole "let the free market regulate itself" argument. Unfortunately, many or most corporations today can't be trusted to do the right and ethical thing, they require babysitting.
13
I have a 2006. The mileage has been great, which is why I bought it. It is not part of the recall, but this appears to really stink. It will impact my next buy decision.
3
VW did not "cheat the breathing public." They killed some of the breathing public. That's a criminal conspiracy.
1. Jail
2. Civil compensation
3. Deny them the 'right' to sell those models in the US for a year
If we had a government that protected people rather than elites, we would have way fewer poor people in jail and far more corporate criminals.
1. Jail
2. Civil compensation
3. Deny them the 'right' to sell those models in the US for a year
If we had a government that protected people rather than elites, we would have way fewer poor people in jail and far more corporate criminals.
7
umm, who was killed? Didn't see that in the article. Were the people killed the same people killed by the exhaust from the hundreds of thousands of cars on the road in CA that are older, and not even subject to the emissions standards that these cars violated?
Classy. Just another piece of proof that the rich and especially the corporate boards have no real respect for laws or the idea that they should beacons for society. They do what they will whenever they feel like it and the rest are left sucking on their noxious fumes.
3
If true, there is only one solution - jail time for those responsible. Fines, any fines, simply become operating costs for large companies. Enough.
10
Government would rather take their money than sending them to prison.
Hopefully at the very least a few dozen of VW's senior execs and their public relations people have had to cancel their weekend plans while they scramble to draft their carefully worded response. You can expect it to be something like "we have ordered an internal review and investigation of these allegations...blah, blah, blah." If the EPA's allegations are true (and at first blush it certainly sounds like VW has been caught red handed) it seems obvious that knowledge of this plot had to be well up into the senior ranks of the company.
2
Jail these hackers with the proviso that they have their sentences reduced by some amount for every Chinese or Russian hack they can find and defeat. Put the evil to some useful purpose. Sounds like they might just be smart enough to turn this to some public good.
2
On the twin promises that they were "fuel efficient" and "green", I purchased 3 VW's with TDI engines. We now discover that VW knowingly sold these cars with cheating software. (BTW, I don't appreciate some of the comments implying that we owners are cheaters). My cars aren't going to pass smog checks after this is corrected. When the grocery store sold me bad milk, they gave me a full refund. I think it would be only proper for VW to do the same to all TDI owners, in addition to any fines to governmental agencies. In any event, I can't imagine what could induce me to purchase another VW, ever.
11
I agree. As much as I love my Golf TDI, I feel as though I've been cheated. I would prefer to sell my car back to VW and move on to another brand (which might well be pulling the same stunt!)
1
Volkswagen has a desperate ambition to succeed in the U.S. I'd call this a fail. I really am disgusted, since I have asthma and diesel fumes are the worst. Thank you, EPA. This requires more than fines.
9
I own a recently purchased Jetta Sportwagen. I bought it for the combination of mileage and performance that was unmatched for cars in its price range. Now that it seems at least one of those traits will be significantly compromised by the fix, I feel deliberately mislead by VW. Can you say refund? Class action?
6
You will get may be a hundred dollars or less in a class action.
It is inconceivable that a modern multinational from a leading country would do this. I have owned many VW's in the past, starting in 1963, two of them diesels. But I'm not sure I will buy another.
Deliberate sabotage of environmental controls deserves punishment to the full extent of the law. If the $17+ Billion fine bankrupts them, so be it. They deserve it, and they deserve to be punished to the full extent of the law. Furthermore, the individuals responsible for this--including all who were knew about it and did nothing-- must be prosecuted and--when found guilty--serve serious prison time.
Deliberate sabotage of environmental controls deserves punishment to the full extent of the law. If the $17+ Billion fine bankrupts them, so be it. They deserve it, and they deserve to be punished to the full extent of the law. Furthermore, the individuals responsible for this--including all who were knew about it and did nothing-- must be prosecuted and--when found guilty--serve serious prison time.
6
Inconceivable? No, it's expected. This is the way powerful businesses behave...ruthlessly. $17 billion is a slap on the wrist. The only way to make sure it doesn't happen again is to seize the entire company.
I bought my 2014 VW Jetta Diesel SportWagen brand new just four months ago. I'm disgusted. When my car is fixed, it won't have the same performance? Then the $37500 fine per vehicle should be used to reimburse the people who bought the vehicles under false pretenses!
4
So why would VW do this? When diesel vehicles increase oxides of nitrogen emissions (NOx) they also typically do something else…they increase fuel economy. I do not know for sure but my guess is that by installing a defeat device VW was doing something for their customers, they were making their cars more fuel efficient. What this article and the EPA do not mention is that in installing these devices in 500,000 vehicles, less fuel was consumed and less carbon dioxide (a climate change gas) went into the atmosphere. Indeed, VW broke the law and they should be punished, however, this is far from the EPA attacking only foreign manufacturers (as other comments suggest). The largest case of defeat devices came in the mid-1990s when most DOMESTIC heavy duty-diesel truck engine manufacturers were using these devices to pass emission tests in the lab, then increasing fuel economy on the road (see http://www3.epa.gov/otaq/cert/dearmfr/vpcd9813.pdf). In the last 10 years, VW has been the only champion of diesel engines in passenger vehicles in the US. Diesel engines are more fuel efficient and tend to last longer than their gasoline counterparts. VW increased the oxides of nitrogen emissions but in doing so reduced the consumption of fossil fuels and emissions of carbon dioxide. In fact, it could be argued that in areas that are in attainment for ground level ozone (smog), there was a net environmental benefit from the reduced greenhouse gas emissions from these vehicles.
4
"In the last 10 years, VW has been the only champion of diesel engines in passenger vehicles in the US."
You must have never heard of BMW or Mercedes Benz, both of whom produce 4 cylinder turbodiesels for the US market.
You must have never heard of BMW or Mercedes Benz, both of whom produce 4 cylinder turbodiesels for the US market.
As a dual American and German citizen, I am shocked by a fairly clear pattern of criminal intent combined with profound (and probably arrogant) lack of understanding of the health risks of Diesel exhaust and the US. The lack of understanding of the US legal system goes hand in hand with the lack of understanding what the US buyer wants from a car, which is responsible for a terrible sales record. I hope that VW reacts quick and decisively and fires the people responsible for this mess. I also hope that the government prosecutes the people responsible for this and does not settle for a convenient big fine, that the average car buyer has to pay and that lets people with clear criminal intent get away.
On Sept. 4th, Spiegel Online reported (Neuer Abgastest: Die dreckige Wahrheit über Dieselautos) that diesel cars sold in Germany showed dramatically different levels of toxic emissions that bore no relationship to the values achieved in official vehicle testing. According to these tests, all the cars conformed to German regulations, but when the independent German auto club ADAC performed emission tests, most failed. In particular, Volvo, Renault, Hyundai, Audi and Opel far exceeded the allowable limits for diesel pollutants (Volvo emitted 15 times the allowable limit!). Mercedes was said to only slightly exceed the limit and only BMW was praised as passing with flying colors. Volkswagen was not mentioned in the article. I guess we now know why.
2
I lived in Germany and I know it is far from perfect. There are dirty streets, obnoxious people, reckless inconsiderate drivers, lazy and rude workers etc. This is surprising but not shocking. Actually I guess it is shocking but not surprising. Whatever. I imagine it violates German laws too. It is a tremendous black eye for Germany, if proven. But it just shows: such evasions go on every day everywhere -- in service stations power plants etc. We need government and honest government desperately, as well as the press and whistle-blowers. Most of all we need to heed the Pope and stop consuming so much, across the board. There is no free lunch (no painless consumption) -- even if the emissions were as stated!!!
1
VW: very weaselly. Given its knowledge on skirting regulations, it must also know what other manufacturers do. Let it turn state's evidence on the entire industry in exchange for reduced penalties.
Apparently, VW is no better than coal-rolling right wingers in some respects.
I also wish the government would fine and curtail the landscape-blighting wind power industry for its false promise of reducing CO2 and protecting the environment. Wind turbines are "fossil fuel extenders" that rely heavily on petroleum for their manufacture. The diesel burned in truck trips for each blade or tower section is significant, as is the loss of CO2-sinks when trees are cleared on mountain ridges (e.g. Lowell and Laurel) plus the overstated power output ratings of such an intermittent source.
I also wish the government would fine and curtail the landscape-blighting wind power industry for its false promise of reducing CO2 and protecting the environment. Wind turbines are "fossil fuel extenders" that rely heavily on petroleum for their manufacture. The diesel burned in truck trips for each blade or tower section is significant, as is the loss of CO2-sinks when trees are cleared on mountain ridges (e.g. Lowell and Laurel) plus the overstated power output ratings of such an intermittent source.
1
10 to 40% higher than what? Most if not all VW and Euro engines are already better than ours, and have to follow stricter standards. Would testing the car without the software turned on still result in a violation, or would the engine still meet standards anyway? That would be my question. These are a long way from an F350 or a 1973 Datsun.
3
Nothing short of blown away by the total failure of integrity on VW's part. Might has well told me all at once that there is no Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny was hit by a car, and that my birthday has been cancelled! This is such a huge disappointment - on the order of the Bush administration. I still can not accept that people in management of the world's largest auto maker actually made the conscious decision to go this route. I'd like to see heads roll and hope that the company can survive.
2
The question now is how long did the U.S. know about this device? I find it hard to believe that VW has this installed on 2 or more lines of autos for 6-7 years and NOW there's a notice of violation. I find it more believable that Volks came to an agreement with the U.S. behind closed doors on their terms before they were willing to come forward and take their licks.
Corporations run this country. It's in the best interest of the president and their administration to avoid giving corporations excuses move their production over seas taking much needed jobs with them.
Still it's nice that the government tries to make it look like it cares and takes mass population serious.
Corporations run this country. It's in the best interest of the president and their administration to avoid giving corporations excuses move their production over seas taking much needed jobs with them.
Still it's nice that the government tries to make it look like it cares and takes mass population serious.
VW was targeted last year after they said no to unions in Tennessee.
It would be helpful if a media outlet of the Times's caliber could interview an engineer knowledgeable about this area, so someone could speak authoritatively to much of what's being said on usually well-informed blogs: That the performance loss from fixing this will be so substantial as to force Volkswagen to buy back all the affected vehicles. I own one and evangelized these cars ever since I bought one. Boy, do I feel like a (defrauded) sucker.
4
Emissions issues for diesel cars are different from those for standard gas engines. Diesel is fuel efficient -- you burn less gas over equal mileage. So diesel has less emissions. But it does have dirtier emissions. Cleaning up diesel emissions is relatively expensive. So the catalytic converter requirement comes down harder on diesel. Because of their fuel efficiency, the VWs without converters may be relatively clean. Not using the converter allows the car to perform better in a number of ways. VW therefore cheated and they will have to pay. But the more important question is whether diesels are better for the environment overall.
1
I own a 2014 Audi Q5 TDI diesel powered SUV. It has been great and I hope it isn't affected by this issue.
I live on Long Island, NY and in this region NYS DMV licensed repair facilities perform annual emission inspections (California standards) on vehicles 2 years or older. This article and EPA recall assumes the vehicle in put into "defeat device" mode to pass the inspection. The conspiracy theory is that the car dealers are putting the car in the "defeat device" mode before conducting the inspection. But what about all the thousands of other NYS licensed inspectors at private service facilities. They are in on it? These cars are passing emission inspections. Something is not right here.
I live on Long Island, NY and in this region NYS DMV licensed repair facilities perform annual emission inspections (California standards) on vehicles 2 years or older. This article and EPA recall assumes the vehicle in put into "defeat device" mode to pass the inspection. The conspiracy theory is that the car dealers are putting the car in the "defeat device" mode before conducting the inspection. But what about all the thousands of other NYS licensed inspectors at private service facilities. They are in on it? These cars are passing emission inspections. Something is not right here.
1
The defeat device evidently got activated when the car was wired up for the test. It does not matter who was testing it:
"The Environmental Protection Agency accused the German automaker of using software to detect when the car is undergoing its periodic state emissions testing. Only during such tests are the cars’ full emissions control systems turned on. "
"The Environmental Protection Agency accused the German automaker of using software to detect when the car is undergoing its periodic state emissions testing. Only during such tests are the cars’ full emissions control systems turned on. "
Dennis,
1. your vehicle is impacted by this, and
2. try reading the article again (and again) until you understand there is no conspiracy theory. The ECU software is what senses the testing and changes the engines emissions.
1. your vehicle is impacted by this, and
2. try reading the article again (and again) until you understand there is no conspiracy theory. The ECU software is what senses the testing and changes the engines emissions.
Your Q5 TDI has the 3L 6 cylinder engine, not an issue here, right?
$37,500 per car sounds about right. Half of that should go to the car owners once they have their cars reset, to compensate them for their time, for the extra dirty air they have been breathing since they bought the cars, and for the reduced performance they will likely endure once the emissions systems become fully functional.
4
Don't worry, kids. Much of this was factored into the cost of doing business. Remember; it's required, by US law, for publicly traded corporations to provide a profit to their shareholders. So, corporations are given the option of illegally not making profits due to reasonable, thoughtful discourse and action, or; the option of abiding the law of the land by screwing us over with lies, well...
And I wonder if VW-Audi didn't employ a tactic from our own military's playbook -- occupy. If they get hit too hard, it might mean a loss of jobs right here at home. Bad news for politicians.
We should all be acutely aware that VW-Audi is simply an organ of the beast. But we are, too, unfortunately. Make choices by how very little you need to buy, and from what corporation -- excuse me, please -- person, you buy them from.
And I wonder if VW-Audi didn't employ a tactic from our own military's playbook -- occupy. If they get hit too hard, it might mean a loss of jobs right here at home. Bad news for politicians.
We should all be acutely aware that VW-Audi is simply an organ of the beast. But we are, too, unfortunately. Make choices by how very little you need to buy, and from what corporation -- excuse me, please -- person, you buy them from.
2
Class action lawsuit for buyers will surely follow - in addition to "clean", VW marketed these cars as punchy, powerful and fuel efficient, both of which will be invariably reduced if the environmental controls actually run in day-to-day driving. See http://blog.caranddriver.com/vws-hilarious-new-tdi-diesel-ads-return-exc...
VW sold them at a premium over similar gas models; as a result of this news, resale value will likely plummet. Add in the possibility of treble damages since the wool they pulled over buyer's eyes was likely of the criminal variety, and I see not a few enterprising attorneys teeing this up. As a purchaser of a 2014 Jetta Sportwagen, count me in.
VW sold them at a premium over similar gas models; as a result of this news, resale value will likely plummet. Add in the possibility of treble damages since the wool they pulled over buyer's eyes was likely of the criminal variety, and I see not a few enterprising attorneys teeing this up. As a purchaser of a 2014 Jetta Sportwagen, count me in.
6
My 2014 Jetta SportWagen has 5000 miles. They violated our clean air regulations and they scammed every single person who bought one of their vehicles.
1
I am reminded of a case I am familiar with in the field of public utilities. Meter tampering to record a false total of energy consumed is a crime. The law was written to be enforced against consumers who tamper with their electric meter to under record actual usage.
In one case, a consumer discovered that the utility intentionally adjusted a meter to over record that customers usage, and charged that customer accordingly. The consumer took action to have the meter tampering law enforced against the utility company.
I think the same idea should apply here. VW should pay a penalty per car the same as would be assessed against an individual car owner tampering with the car's emission system. What is good for the goose is good for the gander.
In one case, a consumer discovered that the utility intentionally adjusted a meter to over record that customers usage, and charged that customer accordingly. The consumer took action to have the meter tampering law enforced against the utility company.
I think the same idea should apply here. VW should pay a penalty per car the same as would be assessed against an individual car owner tampering with the car's emission system. What is good for the goose is good for the gander.
6
I have a 2010 wagon and have had nothing but problems.The reason we bought this was how "green " it was. After seeing this they should take them all back!
14
Sooooooo, a corporation (that wants to be considered a person) cheats and lies again. I hope that the US government not only levies a large enough fine to make Volkswagen and its share holders hurt (wake up time, you adorable capitalist who think regulation are not necessary), but I really, really, really hope that the people (walking, talking, people, not the corporation) who are responsible for this deceit and destruction of common trust and decency are prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law.
I was seriously thinking of purchasing a Volkswagen CC, BUT I think I will try another automobile manufacture whose pants are not on fire, yet.
I was seriously thinking of purchasing a Volkswagen CC, BUT I think I will try another automobile manufacture whose pants are not on fire, yet.
19
So, when the computer is reset will mileage drop? In which case the mileage claims would be a fraud
2
Interesting how the owners of these VW TDI vehicles tout their excellent fuel economy in the comments. I was always curious how the TDI engines were designed, as they were (are) known to have excellent "real world" fuel economy, but now we know it was through illegal means. By allowing the vehicles to emit more oxides of nitrogen under normal driving, VW was able to create ultra lean-burn engines, which means they use less fuel, but also cause more smog-forming NOx pollutants. All auto manufacturers searching for high fuel economy struggle over balancing high fuel economy (using lean burn) versus smog emissions.
I, for one, appreciate the fact that the pollution from cars is well regulated. I remember the days in the 1970s (when I was young) and one would see this ugly brown haze over L.A. That brown color was nitrogen dioxide in the smog. Today, that brown haze is quite rare, even in L.A.
It would serve VW right if they get fined the maximum $18billion. BTW, I am an owner of a VW (gas) vehicle, and was considering purchase of a TDI, but not anymore.
I, for one, appreciate the fact that the pollution from cars is well regulated. I remember the days in the 1970s (when I was young) and one would see this ugly brown haze over L.A. That brown color was nitrogen dioxide in the smog. Today, that brown haze is quite rare, even in L.A.
It would serve VW right if they get fined the maximum $18billion. BTW, I am an owner of a VW (gas) vehicle, and was considering purchase of a TDI, but not anymore.
16
I bought a Passat TDi to drive back and forth to Florida. It gets 44mpg overall. I could have kept driving a Suburban, which might get 15 mpg on a good day.
Which polluted less? Much more CO2 from the Suburban, apparently more NOX from the Passat.
My wife is very sensitive to diesel exhaust- the Passat doesn't bother her.
Which polluted less? Much more CO2 from the Suburban, apparently more NOX from the Passat.
My wife is very sensitive to diesel exhaust- the Passat doesn't bother her.
As opposed to the possible $37,500.00 fine per occurrence, perhaps the US government should direct VW to provide new replacements to the consumers who own such vehicles. The government should not profit from this. Somehow, the consumer always gets brushed aside in these matters, and seldom gets the fairest restitution.
22
The consumer isn't going to get a new car magically out of this. It's going to be a recall, and they'll update the software.
The bigger question is, if fuel economy drops significantly, does VW owe restitution to the consumer for not delivering the expected performance. That's where owners might 'cash in', much like Ford had to when they updated the true fuel economy of their hybrid vehicles.
The bigger question is, if fuel economy drops significantly, does VW owe restitution to the consumer for not delivering the expected performance. That's where owners might 'cash in', much like Ford had to when they updated the true fuel economy of their hybrid vehicles.
How about both? $18B in fines and a free replacement for any affected car owner that wants one.
I guess I'm not sure why VW did this. Was it a mileage thing or was it for better performance? It seems odd but it probably serves them right for what they did.
3
The interesting question is: What were they trying to work around with this band-aid and what will happen to all the cars that have this disabled in the recall? Fuel economy will suffer? Performance will suffer? Reliability will suffer?
Obviously they didn't risk this sort of thing for nothing. These devices were installed to fix a broken product at the last minute. How was it broken?
Obviously they didn't risk this sort of thing for nothing. These devices were installed to fix a broken product at the last minute. How was it broken?
3
Jail and a huge fine. CEO to jail.
6
Just 5 days ago I was deciding between a Passat TDI Clean Diesel and a Ford C-Max Energi Plug-in. It was a tough call- both were attractive, fun cars, and both promised fuel efficiency and lower emissions. I ultimately went with the Ford, and wow, am I ever glad I did! I would have been stuck with a 3 year lease on a super-polluter from a dishonest company! Shame on VW.
4
go for Passpat. even they got caught, they are still better than Ford.
vw dishes out td1 on drivers that tune their car. now, vw got "flagged" for messing with the cars ecu, lol. the irony...and man that 18 billion probably causing a lot of vw big wigs to sweat bullets.
I guess we know now why Honda gave up on its urea-synthesis diesel system for the U.S.
At least they are honest when they can't meet the standards.
At least they are honest when they can't meet the standards.
11
Now all the performance buffs will want to buy a VW-type chip.
I'm surprised they thought they could get away with it.
8
It was quite a clever hack and it is impressive that someone actually detected it.
What a timely recall Recently, I have been considering buying a VW. Not sure I want to support a company that cheats the system like this. What is wrong with automakers? Oh yeah...money.
9
Has VW admitted to installing a defeat device? (Yes)
What exactly does the defeat device do? (reduce DEF dosing and LNT regen)
How much higher are emissions due to defeat device? (10-40 times higher!)
Answers to those questions and many more are at EPA's website:
http://www3.epa.gov/otaq/cert/violations.htm
What exactly does the defeat device do? (reduce DEF dosing and LNT regen)
How much higher are emissions due to defeat device? (10-40 times higher!)
Answers to those questions and many more are at EPA's website:
http://www3.epa.gov/otaq/cert/violations.htm
4
Mark these words: there will be at least one VW executive who "takes the honorable way out" over this. IMO, that's as it should be.
I would like to hear more about what actually happened before I categorically condemn VW. I find it hard to believe that they would intentionally risk their reputation in the large and hard-earned US market on such a foolish move, and for the minor gains of having diesel offerings. Many here will recall that they intentionally pulled diesels from the CA market in several past model years to comply with emissions.
5
In this season of election, let this be a reminder to the Tea party and Republican candidates who rally for less regulation: companies do not have ethics or morals. Left unchecked, they will always seek that for which they were made -- the almighty profit.
No one likes bigger government, but without federal regulation, we would have companies selling us smog emitting cars, hamburger made from mad cows, and high risk mortgages bundled as low risk bonds.
Oh wait -- they already did.
No one likes bigger government, but without federal regulation, we would have companies selling us smog emitting cars, hamburger made from mad cows, and high risk mortgages bundled as low risk bonds.
Oh wait -- they already did.
Oh for heaven's sake.
This is truly disgusting.
Why on earth would any sane human being cheat on something so important? Let alone a highly respected auto company?
With industrial leaders like this we don't stand a chance.
This is truly disgusting.
Why on earth would any sane human being cheat on something so important? Let alone a highly respected auto company?
With industrial leaders like this we don't stand a chance.
11
This sounds like criminal behavior, not simply the reason for a recall. I've owned two Volkswagens in my lifetime (a classic Bug and a Rabbit convertible) and both had a myriad of problems. I will never own another.
4
The Betrüger should be fined the maximum amount, face jail time and pay the customers they defrauded.
5
the word "diesel" should have been in the title of this story
to much trouble to include that I guess ...
to much trouble to include that I guess ...
I expect the settlement will include some sort of "coupon" for current owners to use on a future VW purchase. Don't expect VW to take your car back and issue a pro-rated refund. Not happening.
1
I am surprised, as VW/Audi is such a world leader in the diesel engined auto market. I should think that the USA (and Canada) EPA regulators should be enforcing the same strict CO2 rules as in Europe. Should the same software not be used in both places? Are VW/Audi also contravening European laws as well?
3
Diesel engine efficiency helps meet CO2 standards even though the fuel has a bit more carbon than gasoline. This issue is about combustion getting too hot, which forms harmful nitrogen-oxygen compounds. Jet engines and other gas turbines can also run too hot, and do this.
3
So you are saying it is no big deal, right?
1
The designed defect does not affect CO2, except to the extent that it increases fuel efficiency.
Europe does not regulate auto CO2 emissions.
Europe does not regulate auto CO2 emissions.
SOMEBODY needs to spend some serious time in the serious prison for this. I'm talking YEARS in a REAL prison, not the barbed-wire Hilton.
6
Good luck finding who, exactly, is responsible for the decision to add code to spoof pollution tests.
I have had an interest in the VW Golf Sportswagen with their diesel engine. In all the reviews I have read it has been pointed out that the reviewers got much better gas mileage than the EPA estimates. Would it be a safe bet that the cars the EPA tested were with the "legal" software, and when VW disables the illegal software owners will see gas mileage will go down precipitously.
6
No, you'd lose the bet, assuming the software upgrade they did on my TDI Sportwagen two months ago is the fix.
Well I hope you are right but we (you) won't know for sure until later. BTW did you notice any decrease in performance , ie acceleration, torque?
How long ago was VW caught? I just had a software update performed today when I was in for my first service on a 2015 Golf Sportwagen. I've also been exceeding EPA mileage estimates and I hope that doesn't stop.
This is a terrible thing on VW's part. To actively cheat out on on emissions testing is reprehensible.
I have yet to read the R&T article. But, I'm puzzled where/when is this an issue, since the Los Angeles area smog test I had a few years back did NOT requre the exhaust sniffer... they only hooked up to the computer, "looked for visible smoke" at a throttle snap. No emissions monitoring at all! This NOx evasion thing wouldn't be an issue with no exhaust measuring being done. And if the LA/OC area in CA isn't one of the tightest smog areas, I'd be shocked. Will all this only apply to testing that isn't done yet?
Again, a terrible buisness practice decision, even if "the other guys were doing it too". Hoping it won't drastically impact performance and MPG.
I have yet to read the R&T article. But, I'm puzzled where/when is this an issue, since the Los Angeles area smog test I had a few years back did NOT requre the exhaust sniffer... they only hooked up to the computer, "looked for visible smoke" at a throttle snap. No emissions monitoring at all! This NOx evasion thing wouldn't be an issue with no exhaust measuring being done. And if the LA/OC area in CA isn't one of the tightest smog areas, I'd be shocked. Will all this only apply to testing that isn't done yet?
Again, a terrible buisness practice decision, even if "the other guys were doing it too". Hoping it won't drastically impact performance and MPG.
3
Perhaps the intro sentence should mention that this is limited to VW and Audi four-cylinder diesel engines, not their other engines. Seems like an important point.
1
Seems VW did not invent the idea of an emissions "defeat device". Good ol' U.S. corporations already pulled this off, got caught, and fined. See http://www2.epa.gov/enforcement/caterpillar-inc-diesel-engines-settlement
However, apparently no one got thrown in jail, so perhaps VW saw the risk in using emissions "defeat devices" as acceptable.
"On October 22, 1998, the Department of Justice and the Environmental Protection Agency announced an $83.4 million total penalty against diesel manufacturers, the largest civil penalty ever for violation of environmental law. Under this settlement, seven major manufacturers of diesel engines will spend more than one billion dollars to resolve claims that they installed computer devices in heavy duty diesel engines which resulted in illegal amounts of air pollution emissions. This settlement will prevent 75 million tons of harmful nitrogen oxide (NOx) emissions nationwide by the year 2025. The companies involved are Caterpillar, Inc., Cummins Engine Company, Detroit Diesel Corporation, Mack Trucks, Inc., Navistar International Transportation Corporation, Renault Vehicules Industriels, s.a., and Volvo Truck Corporation."
"The seven companies sold 1.3 million heavy duty diesel engines containing illegal "defeat devices," which allow an engine to pass the EPA emissions test, but then turn off emission controls during highway driving. As a result, these engines emit up to three times the current level for NOx a harmful air pollutant."
However, apparently no one got thrown in jail, so perhaps VW saw the risk in using emissions "defeat devices" as acceptable.
"On October 22, 1998, the Department of Justice and the Environmental Protection Agency announced an $83.4 million total penalty against diesel manufacturers, the largest civil penalty ever for violation of environmental law. Under this settlement, seven major manufacturers of diesel engines will spend more than one billion dollars to resolve claims that they installed computer devices in heavy duty diesel engines which resulted in illegal amounts of air pollution emissions. This settlement will prevent 75 million tons of harmful nitrogen oxide (NOx) emissions nationwide by the year 2025. The companies involved are Caterpillar, Inc., Cummins Engine Company, Detroit Diesel Corporation, Mack Trucks, Inc., Navistar International Transportation Corporation, Renault Vehicules Industriels, s.a., and Volvo Truck Corporation."
"The seven companies sold 1.3 million heavy duty diesel engines containing illegal "defeat devices," which allow an engine to pass the EPA emissions test, but then turn off emission controls during highway driving. As a result, these engines emit up to three times the current level for NOx a harmful air pollutant."
10
Absolutely appalling. 2010 Golf TDI owner who received a letter a couple of weeks ago alerting me to a recall and that the software has to be reflashed. No explanation or anything.
3
From Bob: so all those people who suffered loss, physical as well as financial now have a legal recourse against those who caused the harm? Not just VW but those individuals who perpetrated, controlled and failed to deter the hazard? I can't wait for the Pope's critics to grapple with this one!
1
Like everyone else, I hope VW will pay for their actions through a fine, lowering of corporate image, the financial cost of a recall, and the effect of all of these on their stock price.
But unlike some people, I do not want them to be crippled or put out of business. One, that is not going to happen, but I also do not want it. Because VW also provides employment to thousands of families, and in turn makes it possible for kids to go to school and the sick to get treated. Yes, what they did is damaging (and stupid), but they are not evil in the true sense. Heck, if we can have tobacco companies that literally sell stuff that causes cancer, then VW is almost saintly in comparison, and should be allowed to learn from this experience and do better in future. The only concern is, will they learn and will other companies be wise enough to learn from this episode?
But unlike some people, I do not want them to be crippled or put out of business. One, that is not going to happen, but I also do not want it. Because VW also provides employment to thousands of families, and in turn makes it possible for kids to go to school and the sick to get treated. Yes, what they did is damaging (and stupid), but they are not evil in the true sense. Heck, if we can have tobacco companies that literally sell stuff that causes cancer, then VW is almost saintly in comparison, and should be allowed to learn from this experience and do better in future. The only concern is, will they learn and will other companies be wise enough to learn from this episode?
3
VW people ought to go to jail for long enough to cause others to think more seriously about this kind of violation. It doesn't matter at all that this hasn't been done in the past. It's time for a change and a harsher attitude. When engineers and executives actually go to prison for more than a year, and have to live with criminal records, we will have a significant deterrent effect that does not exist at present. Yes, this will be a change from prior practice. But a very justified and necessary change. Your attempted injection of warm and fuzzy rhetoric is entirely inappropriate.
3
If you read a little about the CEO/Chairman of Volkswagen during the period of violation, you will not be surprised at the brazen lawlessness of this company. Why, they're just as bad as Goldman Sachs!
1
I wonder about the TPP Treaty and how this discovery/disclosure and requirement standards will be effected, once the treaty is passed? When we enforce our laws/regulations and these companies claim/sue the USA for loss of revenue.....How does all this plan to work out?
2
I don't know if anyone has mentioned it, but I wonder if this if a global "feature" for these cars designed to improve their performance and I guess gas mileage. I would be really surprised it they did this only for US cars. Although I have no idea how strict environmental regulations are in Germany. I guess VW has a lot of competition.
1
Recall? Good, but let's make sure no VWs are sold until this ruse is fixed, and a fine, based on how much pollution damage has been done for each car on the road for each year these cars have been around, should be imposed in VW.'
In addition, a criminal investigation should be carried out, and employees should be sent to jail --this did not happen accidentally. Let's make sure our laws are enforced.
In addition, a criminal investigation should be carried out, and employees should be sent to jail --this did not happen accidentally. Let's make sure our laws are enforced.
2
Once again, we Americans making a big deal over purported corporate abuse when we have bigger fish to fry such as Syria, Iran, domestic education, and gun control. When you drive, stop and think about the engines that Volkswagen produces and the cars it has sold in the U.S.A. (and all over the world) -- incredibly fuel-efficient engines, including diesel engines, saving Americans a ton of money at the pump, dirtying the air a heck of a lot less than their American counterpart cars and causing American automakers to develop more fuel-efficient engines to keep up with the German competition. I'm not condoning deliberate deceit (to the extent any took place), but this needs to be put in perspective also.
4
"to the extent any took place". Dude, they admitted it.
Read the article: Forty times the stated emissions. They are not 'dirtying the air a heck of a lot less', but a heck of a lot more. not to mention the blatant fraud aspect. What kind of person condones this and tries to make excuses for it?
I propose a class action suit against VW filed on behalf of people who have breathed in the foul polluted air that VW cheater diesel engines spewed these last six years.
3
I'm curious to know how this hack was uncovered. Also, why did VW think the hack would not be uncovered? What did VW stand to gain by using this underhanded approach? Did they weigh the potential gains against a scandal of this kind?
3
In all probability they expected the same kind of slap on the wrist that all the others have received until now. But the government has recently made clear that they've reconsidered the issue of corporate penalties and have decided they need to ratchet up the pain. It's obvious that until now the purely financial penalties imposed have simply been considered a cost of doing business. All prior penalties should thus be written off and not considered binding precedent. There's no reason to go through all the extremely complicated work of researching dossiers and prosecuting corporations if the penalties can be shrugged off. If and when sizable numbers of high-level corporate executives and engineers are sent to jail for substantial periods of time, then there may be change. And only then.
1
Setting aside the possibility of a huge fine, a good segment of VW's customer base in the U.S. won't like this at all. VW is going to have to figure out a way to assure people they have their hearts in the right place.
1
Just purchased a 2015 Golf Sports Wagon after it was unanimously voted Small Car of The Year: Does this mean my advertised 27 City / 32 Highway mileage will go down? And following the recall, can I now expect to lose power in my miniscule 1.8 cubic litre gas Turbo when I need it most? Can the poor, duped VW owner expect a rebate for this blatant swindle, and does the EPA truly give a flip about the VW owner?
1
If you have the turbo gas engine and not the "clean" diesel engine, then this doesn't affect you.
2
It's not the EPA's responsibility to compensate VW owners for damages that are a result of VW's criminal and fraudulent actions. Why would you expect EPA to get involved in any way other than their regulatory and enforcement role? Take it up with VW, not the federal government - and by extension the taxpayers. I'm sure there are any number of law firms looking for plaintiffs for a class action suit. If I were an owner, I'd keep my fingers crossed that these cars that do not meet US emission standards are not ordered off the road.
Yes, you can expect all those things except the rebate. And why should the EPA give a flip about VW owners? That's not their job.
1
DISGRACEFUL!!! DESPICABLE!!!! Will never even consider buying a VW!
1
The legal basis for the recall will be interesting. It may very well be that VW has a defense based upon the way the regulations were written. That said, there is an interesting regulatory hazard issue here. But for the system defeating the emissions devices, would consumers have found the performance of the VW cars too anemic and chosen more powerful models? Would pushing consumers to those vehicles create a net increase in emissions over fooling consumers into buying 4-cylinder models? When regulators try to play god, perverse results can occur.
3
As an owner of one of these cars, I'd like to understand WHY VW did this. Why did they want to make the default be sub-par emissions controls? Do full emission controls reduce fuel economy? Would runnign on full emission controls all the time require replacement of critical parts sooner within the typical warranty period? Some of these models require urea injection to maintain emissions within the limited range, and those urea tanks need to be re-filled. Would this cheat save VW money by pushing the urea-tank refill date beyond the warranty period? What was in it for VW?
This action is just so purposely fraudulent, I hope that us owners, who bought these cars for their fuel efficiency on top of supposedly low emissions, will see some serious apologies from the company. I'd personally the company face stiff penalties, and would like to see this fixed in every car, plus extended full-cost warranties for the life of the car on all emission-reducing parts/supplies, reimbursement for the cost of past and future smog tests, and an auto start-stop engine switch retro-fitted into all cars without them to help make up for the past few years of running at higher than legal emissions, thanks to this insidious technology.
This action is just so purposely fraudulent, I hope that us owners, who bought these cars for their fuel efficiency on top of supposedly low emissions, will see some serious apologies from the company. I'd personally the company face stiff penalties, and would like to see this fixed in every car, plus extended full-cost warranties for the life of the car on all emission-reducing parts/supplies, reimbursement for the cost of past and future smog tests, and an auto start-stop engine switch retro-fitted into all cars without them to help make up for the past few years of running at higher than legal emissions, thanks to this insidious technology.
2
All I wanted was an Eco button accessible in my Audi. The same Audi sold in Europe has it, why isn't it here in the US?
Are our regulators too stringent on VAG?
or did VAG not want to rock the boat since they knew they were already putting in hidden software to hide other things form regulators in these vehicles.
Oh well. I'm sure Elon Musk is probably congratulating Obama over the phone right now on his actions against a potential auto foe.
The Audi E-tron Quattro Concept and the Porsche Mission E Concept that VAG unveiled this week likely got the billionaire sweating.
Are our regulators too stringent on VAG?
or did VAG not want to rock the boat since they knew they were already putting in hidden software to hide other things form regulators in these vehicles.
Oh well. I'm sure Elon Musk is probably congratulating Obama over the phone right now on his actions against a potential auto foe.
The Audi E-tron Quattro Concept and the Porsche Mission E Concept that VAG unveiled this week likely got the billionaire sweating.
3
Why do you hate Elon Musk... he didn't install the software. Do you approve of cheating?
The Clean Air Act makes it illegal for any manufacturer to tamper with emission devices. The maximum fine is $10,000. That's $5 billion dollars which would seem appropriate in such a willful and brazen case. How many peole thin the EPA will really do its job beyond this phony recall of cars their owners don't want repaired.
1
Isn't anyone going to wait for Volkswagens explanation before hoisting them on them on to a petard? AND - do you really think they are the only automobile company who is manipulating their engine/car computers to do something other than they are 'supposed' to? They are all shady in one way or another. We just pick the level of shady we like - George Carlin tried to tell us that awhile back.
I love my TDI - I just hope I love it as much after it gets 'fixed'.
I love my TDI - I just hope I love it as much after it gets 'fixed'.
6
Hard to explain how the auto only uses full emission control during emissions tests and emits more pollutants otherwise.
Obviously a deliberate cheap way to avoid the hard work of making the diesel engine meet standards
Obviously a deliberate cheap way to avoid the hard work of making the diesel engine meet standards
1
And your TDI (and my TDI) is incredibly more fuel efficient (and pollutes a lot less) than what Detroit manufactures.
2
It's easy to see VW as the bad actor here, but that's not the whole story.
Imagine if you were Big Oil, and a disruptive technology appeared that threatened to replace the ubiquitous gasoline engine, the source of a large percentage of your sales.
You'd start by making diesel fuel more expensive than gasoline. So even though it's cheaper to produce and requires less refining, car drivers pay the road taxes of big trucks. Then, you'd create air quality standards – applying to cars only – so strict they're impossible to meet... except for that pesky German company that keeps finding a way. So you'd make them even more strict, and then the VW engineers would come back for more.
This recall is just the latest development in a uniquely American problem. The rest of the world has been driving diesels for a long time already, and they're happily saving fuel and the environment which, by the way, Europe cares even more about than we do. My TDI Sportwagen has 180,000 trouble-free miles and is only getting started; 45 miles per gallon average and can out-accelerate any V6. But I wouldn't expect anyone who hasn't driven one to know this, let alone believe it.
Kudos to the FDA for winning the latest round to keep America exceptional.
Imagine if you were Big Oil, and a disruptive technology appeared that threatened to replace the ubiquitous gasoline engine, the source of a large percentage of your sales.
You'd start by making diesel fuel more expensive than gasoline. So even though it's cheaper to produce and requires less refining, car drivers pay the road taxes of big trucks. Then, you'd create air quality standards – applying to cars only – so strict they're impossible to meet... except for that pesky German company that keeps finding a way. So you'd make them even more strict, and then the VW engineers would come back for more.
This recall is just the latest development in a uniquely American problem. The rest of the world has been driving diesels for a long time already, and they're happily saving fuel and the environment which, by the way, Europe cares even more about than we do. My TDI Sportwagen has 180,000 trouble-free miles and is only getting started; 45 miles per gallon average and can out-accelerate any V6. But I wouldn't expect anyone who hasn't driven one to know this, let alone believe it.
Kudos to the FDA for winning the latest round to keep America exceptional.
4
Brilliant and spot-on comment. The White House should be giving VW a medal -- not an indictment.
3
your car can out accelerate a 911?
The diesel TDI Sportswagon has a 0-60 time of over 9 seconds. Makes your statement, like many above, simply false. Please join the real world.
I bought a 2011 Tiguan for my daughter for reasons of safety, engineering and gas mileage. While the car is safe, as far as we know (and from the article it would seem that VW's deceit is at a level where it could be lying about safety as well), I didn't think that the engineering that I was paying for would involve an engineering fraud on purchasers, on the EPA and on global citizens.
In addition to making VW pay a large-make that LARGE-fine, the EPA and the States should be forcing VW to offer car owners a choice between a fix and selling the autos back to VW at a formula set not by VW but rather by the EPA at the highest possible value.
And, as pointed out by others, this is a case where the VW executives overseeing the company and the engineers involved should be facing criminal penalties including fines and jail time.
Shame on VW indeed.
In addition to making VW pay a large-make that LARGE-fine, the EPA and the States should be forcing VW to offer car owners a choice between a fix and selling the autos back to VW at a formula set not by VW but rather by the EPA at the highest possible value.
And, as pointed out by others, this is a case where the VW executives overseeing the company and the engineers involved should be facing criminal penalties including fines and jail time.
Shame on VW indeed.
6
Their diesel cars must have higher profit margin than regular cars because when I went to trade in my older car with VW Golf this July, their sales agent was pushing so hard to sell me diesel version of golf. I said I was not interested in diesel engine but still the sales person was keep telling me about how TDI was fuel efficient and a great car. I was so ready to buy VW Golf, but since this agent was trying so hard to sell me Golf TDI instead of regular one, I got turned off and just walked out of their dealership deciding I would never buy VW. Now, I am so glad I didn’t trade in my car with VW.
2
The other car companies had to have known what VW was doing (they reverse engineer every square inch of each other's vehicles). So did another car company blow the whistle, or did they all stay silent because VW had some dirt on THEM?
3
Not necessarily.
They reverse engineer for costs and many things, but I wouldn't assume they do a detailed breakdown of emissions. That's a hard regulatory goal and if your car meets it, you're done. Keep in mind, too, that there are hardly any diesel sedans for sale in the U.S. made by U.S. manufacturers.
They reverse engineer for costs and many things, but I wouldn't assume they do a detailed breakdown of emissions. That's a hard regulatory goal and if your car meets it, you're done. Keep in mind, too, that there are hardly any diesel sedans for sale in the U.S. made by U.S. manufacturers.
Not only that, but there are other companies whose very existence revolves around reverse engineering VAG software and tuning it for high performance - A.P.R. is one of those. How is it that something this blatant could have remained secret for six years? Something stinks here. Don't forget that you've got a lame duck president in his final days, wielding government agencies to satisfy his identity politics agenda. Get ready for all out shenanigans from the Obama administration as they try to create a a distraction to mask their truly divisive policies and the real legacy of the Obama Presidency.
The article leaves out important technical details about what the effect of the emission controls software has on the operation of the cars, which obviously will be deleterious in some manner if this defeat software was purposefully used. It should have been reported whether the emission controls make the cars more efficient or less powerful when activated. It's not just academic, persons like myself, purchased a VW diesel subject to this recall under certain advertised assumptions of performance and efficiency, and if those were based on an illegal configuration, then we have a different car than we thought we were buying and have been misled by VW.
3
The fine works out to over $36,000 per vehicle. Hard to imagine that surviving a court challenge.
That's the purpose of a fine; to punish. VW potentially loses all profit (and then some) for each vehicle involved. This will, hopefully, dissuade them from practicing similar chicanery in the future.
Good! Maybe they are going to buy back my car for what I bought it for.......
I'm in the market for a new car and just crossed VW off my narrow list of possibilities.
5
Divine intervention - the salesman talked us OUT of diesel and into gasoline when we described our low miles lifestyle. I waited a long time for my 2015 Golf Sportwagon, and am grateful not to be involved in this. So far it has performed beautifully.
However, the word "disappointment" doesn't even begin to cover how I feel about VW's criminal intent. The deception deserves jail time.
However, the word "disappointment" doesn't even begin to cover how I feel about VW's criminal intent. The deception deserves jail time.
3
Let me guess,no upper level management had any idea! It's amazing how these executives love to justify their bloated salaries and bonuses when business is going well but have no knowledge of something like this. An engineer could not have designed this system w/o anyone knowing. After all what is the benefit to them? WE really need to hold execs accountable to explain how they could be so out of the loop and start jailing them for allowing this to happen.
4
This is fraud, pure and simple. VW/Audi should be required to refund the full purchase price of all the cars sold with the fraudulent software. What good is a recall? If they "fix" the software, what is the down side? Lower gas mileage? Lower resale value?
4
Probably terrible performance. I'm pretty frightened to see what this does to my 2012 Jetta TDI.
And now of course, we should wait to see which other manufacturers have done similar things. Comparatively speaking my Jetta TDI travels 45 miles per gallon and probably still emits less NOx per mile than the hideous gasoline powered trucks favored in my neighborhood which are still only getting less than 20 miles and in some cases 15 miles per gallon. If this report is true VW has committed a crime, but it may be a small one compared to the ongoing idiocy of allowing low mpg trucks to be made and sold to people who only use them as, shall we say, genital extensions and runabouts.
8
Rationalize all you want, but VW did commit a crime. Other vehicles are not germane to the matter. This is about emissions, not MPG.
As many others have pointed out, it's kind of incredible that people don't go to jail for this sort of thing. It's hard not to think about Mr. Garner in Staten Island, and the incredible double standard that exists in our society.
Would it be possible for the Times to dig into how the decision to commit this fraud was made? In particular, it would be some small consolation if that person's name was published, so that people who search for their names online would learn what sort of people they are.
Would it be possible for the Times to dig into how the decision to commit this fraud was made? In particular, it would be some small consolation if that person's name was published, so that people who search for their names online would learn what sort of people they are.
3
I own one of these cars, and like all the other owners posting, I am horrified by this revelation. This may also explain something funny I've noticed about the car's computer. The average MPG displayed by the computer is always significantly higher (by 10-12%) than the average MPG I calculate from time to time by dividing miles traveled by gallons consumed. I always wondered how the computer could get such a simple calculation wrong. Now I wonder if it is deliberately programmed to display a false average MPG. Has anyone else noticed this?
6
In regards to accuracy of the computer/display, I have not found any significant discrepancy in my 2011.
As each fill can vary a little depending on how sensitive the diesel nozzle, your manually calculated mileage can vary, too. My calculations have sometimes been above and sometimes below the computer average.
As each fill can vary a little depending on how sensitive the diesel nozzle, your manually calculated mileage can vary, too. My calculations have sometimes been above and sometimes below the computer average.
That's a different issue. I think that the MPG you see is rolling mileage (you are moving). so that time you spend at the stoplight and in traffic and idling in front of your house trying to decide if you want to go in and face your children....isn't accounted for.
Its fairly common on all cars with an average MPG display, regardless of manufacturer.
Guess I won't be buying an Audi.
4
What about a Porsche, owned by VW?
Hilarious. You have to hand it to the Germans to create software that the public wants.
BTW I would check NYC Buses if they are using software that increases their pollution output since they are the biggest polluters on the road.
BTW I would check NYC Buses if they are using software that increases their pollution output since they are the biggest polluters on the road.
1
Fine German engineering: not a shoddy product, but a dishonest one. Green at home, brown in other lands? I see a behavior pattern emerging here.
Well let's see if our new and improved Justice Dept will prosecute the executives that are responsible. Otherwise its just SAMO.
1
How can automakers be blamed or expected to know which laws supposed to be followed and which are mere suggestions? We've all been told for years now that many laws are optional - immigration for example. You can't just pick and choose which laws you like.
I see many good, intelligent blogs on this issue. I won't try to write anything as good, I simply want to say this:
Volkswagen will be fined; a lot, we can hope. But this is a gross, deliberate, conscious decision to violate Federal law, and let us get sick. Someone needs to go to jail.
Volkswagen will be fined; a lot, we can hope. But this is a gross, deliberate, conscious decision to violate Federal law, and let us get sick. Someone needs to go to jail.
3
a simple way to stop this behavior, suspension of all car sales for a given company for 1 month to 12 months, depending on the violation. that will stop the bad behavior.
2
Some U.S. car companies tried this back in the early 90s. I'm surprised the Germans were so stupid as to try it anew. The dynamometer testing needs to be randomized, and probably mixed with some other kind of testing protocol. Unfortunately the protocol is published in the Federal Register and changing it is a big deal, one that opens up the chance for EPA opponents to claim the government is killing them with regulation.
1
Jake Tapper to Republican candidates: Is it OK for corporations to cheat to get around EPA rules?
Republican answer: Of course! The EPA needs to be abolished anyway. We don't need clean air. We need PROFITS at any cost!!!!
Republican answer: Of course! The EPA needs to be abolished anyway. We don't need clean air. We need PROFITS at any cost!!!!
5
How about asking Obama and his hand picked Attorney General why GM got off with absolutely no one indicted for killing people?
What do you want to bet that no one from VW will be indicted either?
What do you want to bet that no one from VW will be indicted either?
A system that defeats pollution controls when no one is looking sounds really devious. So large organizations usually do these things within a cultural norm. Does this mean that other facets of their car designs are also deviously defeating the law and perhaps even safety? This is a huge fraud , one that affects the health and welfare of all Americans. It is a deliberate, calculated violation of our laws obviously from the highest officials at VW. The violations are intolerable.
2
What was VW thinking? How could they imagine that this wouldn't be revealed with catastrophic economic and goodwill results?
Defense: It is a bug inserted by Hans, a disgruntled former employee.
Where was the NSA when we needed them? How could it miss this while it was scooping up mega-data?
Defense: It is a bug inserted by Hans, a disgruntled former employee.
Where was the NSA when we needed them? How could it miss this while it was scooping up mega-data?
3
Since I just bought a Jetta 2015 TDI, are we looking at the possibility of consumers suing for false advertising if the better gas mileage is a result breaking the law?
2
They should have to buy back our cars for market value + time/expense to find a comparable replacement vehicle.
Intentional skirting of US EPA regulations is a pretty serious offense. Here in California, if a driver is found to modify a car engine after having passed pollution control checks that person would be liable for a substantial fine.
It appears that Volkswagon intentionally did as much though on a much larger scale. Couple that with the fact that the US government gave a $1300 rebate back to each purchaser of a TDI equipped Volkswagon/Audi and you have a corporation that has essentially robbed the American peope of a substantial amount of taxpayer money - not to mention a likely degradation to clean air in all 50 states.
Fines are in order here. If, as the Supreme Court notes that corporations are essentially 'individuals' then let them pay the requisite fines and penalties that 480,000 individuals (i.e. cars) would have been assessed had each been found guilty of gaming the EPA regulations. Thrown on top of that the $624,000,000 owed back in taxpayer funded rebates.
This is disgusting.
It appears that Volkswagon intentionally did as much though on a much larger scale. Couple that with the fact that the US government gave a $1300 rebate back to each purchaser of a TDI equipped Volkswagon/Audi and you have a corporation that has essentially robbed the American peope of a substantial amount of taxpayer money - not to mention a likely degradation to clean air in all 50 states.
Fines are in order here. If, as the Supreme Court notes that corporations are essentially 'individuals' then let them pay the requisite fines and penalties that 480,000 individuals (i.e. cars) would have been assessed had each been found guilty of gaming the EPA regulations. Thrown on top of that the $624,000,000 owed back in taxpayer funded rebates.
This is disgusting.
13
I agree that this is truly disgusting, but have to say that as a purchaser of one of these cars in 2012, I got no such rebate (it expired in 2010, and VW reached their 60,000 sales quota in the first quarter of 2010, so buyers during the remaining three quarters got half or less of the $1300 per car tax credit). So it would not be $624M in taxpayer-funded credits/rebates, but a maximum of some $7.8M for the first 60K cars,$650 per car sold in the second quarter, and $325 per car sold in the third and fourth quarters (assuming everybody who bought the car was aware of the tax credit and filed for it). But I see your point...VW should surely reimburse the government for those funds with interest. VW should pay the equivalent of the fines each of us would face for modifying our emissions beyond the limits here in California, multiplied by the years this has been going on. And all those fines need to be put into programs that help restore/clean the environment. Not into the federal/state general funds, etc.
And what, pray tell, will be VW's punishment for this criminal wrongdoing? Oh, I know—they'll have to pay a fine! Whatever corporations are (the lowest form of life in the universe comes to mind), they most certainly are NOT people. People go to jail when they commit crimes!
P.S. I have nothing against Volkswagen. This is what happens whenever any company is caught committing any crime.
P.S. I have nothing against Volkswagen. This is what happens whenever any company is caught committing any crime.
2
Too bad the feds don't take the same tough enforcement attitude for the their bankster friends.
5
Regardless of the outcome, I smell a Class Action Lawsuit, should the revised MPG drop below initial advertised MPG. (Hyundai was in a similar boat)
About VW's alleged intent to deceive, I want to wait to hear from VW before I form an opinion about who's at fault. The way these cars have to be tested for emissions is not a quick process. Has to be done on a 4 wheel rolling dyno. Can't just pull up and plug it in and wait for a computer to make sure there are no hard or soft codes.
I partially will want to blame the EPA for their absurd rules on emission testing diesel vehicles. If they are OBD II compliant, then diesels should be treated same as gasoline engines.
About VW's alleged intent to deceive, I want to wait to hear from VW before I form an opinion about who's at fault. The way these cars have to be tested for emissions is not a quick process. Has to be done on a 4 wheel rolling dyno. Can't just pull up and plug it in and wait for a computer to make sure there are no hard or soft codes.
I partially will want to blame the EPA for their absurd rules on emission testing diesel vehicles. If they are OBD II compliant, then diesels should be treated same as gasoline engines.
3
Surprisingly audacious cheating by VW. Since it was intentional deception, I'm surprised they didn't get hit by a big fine in addition to the recall. Cadillac got caught doing the same thing about 15 years ago.
3
This would be a good time to outlaw open ECUs, the ones that allow individual owners to easily install similar third-party hacks and reverse them just long enough to pass state inspections.
1
VW ECU's are already access protected, the past 10-15yrs.
Smarter industries than the automakers have tried locking things down. Spoiler alert: it never works. Any user accessible device can and will be broken if there's an incentive to do so. Disabling nanny state restrictions on performance will always provide one!
At $37,500 per vehicle this could amount to over $18 billion in fines...of course if Volkswagon actually pays that much. They'll "settle". Legal speak for pay off government officials. The. They'll dance away not learning anything.
Everyone complains about commercial oversight in this day and age, but few recognize that we have vast code written to regulate certain markets and effects, both natural and economic, of those markets. The problem is we never enforce them to the fullest extent as it is written. If our government bodies finally stopped being on the take, we could slap these offenders with penalties that will hurt and show other potential offenders that they better not try it.
Everyone complains about commercial oversight in this day and age, but few recognize that we have vast code written to regulate certain markets and effects, both natural and economic, of those markets. The problem is we never enforce them to the fullest extent as it is written. If our government bodies finally stopped being on the take, we could slap these offenders with penalties that will hurt and show other potential offenders that they better not try it.
72
What is the value of the VW plant in Chattanooga? This should be the value of the fine plus a fine to california
One could argue that a certain ideology devoted to quashing government leads to the inability to enforce the laws on the books, which is what the right-wing in America really wants when it comes to corporate behavior.
Wow ! EPA was issued a Notice of Violation. They will be issued a fine eventually which will be the cost of doing business and no one goes to the hoosegow. EPA is a paper tiger that has lost their fangs and claws if they ever had them.
2
I'll be impressed when corporate executives serve long prison terms for crimes like this. Recalls and fines are well and good, but they often fail to even match the extra profits gleaned in this manner. Even when on occasion they do, they are absorbed as a calculated risk. How many other serious violations of the health, safety and labor laws did Volkswagen knowingly commit before they got caught for this one?
Capitalism is inherently amoral. It incentivizes the "externalization" of costs, a two-dollar word for making other people pay by having to breath dirty air, lose limbs on factory floors, or die from exploding fuel tanks. A CEO acting in a "fiscally responsible manner" to his or her shareholders will often opt to break the law and endanger people. Those who don't face punishment by "the market" which always demands the maximization of profits.
No amount of additional regulation will overcome this potent tendency within capitalism because the political apparatus responsible for enforcement is always ultimately owned by the same capitalists.
Capitalism is inherently amoral. It incentivizes the "externalization" of costs, a two-dollar word for making other people pay by having to breath dirty air, lose limbs on factory floors, or die from exploding fuel tanks. A CEO acting in a "fiscally responsible manner" to his or her shareholders will often opt to break the law and endanger people. Those who don't face punishment by "the market" which always demands the maximization of profits.
No amount of additional regulation will overcome this potent tendency within capitalism because the political apparatus responsible for enforcement is always ultimately owned by the same capitalists.
18
As a VW fanatic, I am very disappointed in this lie. However, my TDI can go well over 700 miles per tank when I make my long drives. Im using way less fuel than the majority of over vehicles on the road. Im sure if we get into the nuts and bolts of the numbers, the emissions are not much worse than the gassers out there getting 10-20 mpgs less.
6
Coral Davenport contact me if you'd like a copy of the letter VW sent me about my TDI in April. It's really slippery.
Let's note that two of the vehicles involved, the 2009 Jetta and 2010 Audi A3, won the "Green Car of the Year award for reporting gas mileage of nearly 80 mpg to go along with their low emissions, enabled by so-called TDI Diesel technology. Volkswagen and Audi have committed fraud by misrepresenting their performance and their standards. According to Road and Track, the vehicles emit 40 times more NOx when the defeat device by passes the emission system than when it's turned on. Not only did VW/Audi commit fraud, they violated federal standards and, most importantly, they dumped tons of poisonous emissions into the air, affecting anyone with breathing difficulties and polluting the landscape with diesel particulates. Shame on them. Let the lawsuits and criminal charges begin.
20
Well I have a 2015 TDI Passat, and it still gets incredible gas mileage for its size and power, so it seems highly doubtful that we are talking about a 40x change in pollution, which would not make any sense based on the stoichiometry of the combustion reaction, for diesel or for gasoline.
This is a terrible thing on VW's part. To actively cheat out on on emissions testing is reprehensible. I have yet to read the R&T article.
But, I'm puzzled where is this an issue, since the Los Angeles area smog test I had a few years back did NOT requre the exhaust sniffer... they only hooked up to the computer, "looked for visible smoke" at a throttle snap. No emissions monitoring at all! This NOx evasion thing wouldn't be an issue with no exhaust measuring being done. And if the LA/OC area in CA isn't one of the tightest smog areas, I'd be shocked. Will all this only apply to testing that isn't done yet?
But, I'm puzzled where is this an issue, since the Los Angeles area smog test I had a few years back did NOT requre the exhaust sniffer... they only hooked up to the computer, "looked for visible smoke" at a throttle snap. No emissions monitoring at all! This NOx evasion thing wouldn't be an issue with no exhaust measuring being done. And if the LA/OC area in CA isn't one of the tightest smog areas, I'd be shocked. Will all this only apply to testing that isn't done yet?
I'm still waiting for the EPA to admit that gravimetric particulate testing --the official USEPA air pollution testing protocols--don't detect particulate numbers of ultrafine particulates. Modern engines have been tuned to emit millions more ultrafine particulates instead of the coarse particulates that are weighed in air pollution monitors. The automakers are claiming they have GREEN engines because they are getting around the coarse particulate monitoring. Thats a bigger scandal than VW subverting emissions testing.
6
I bought a 2104 Golf TDI because of the environmental benefits and am incensed to find that Volkswagen has done this. Also, they sent me and all TDI owners I suspect a letter back in April asking me to bring my car in to have the ECM software updated, out of their concern for the environment (!!!) which I finally scheduled for this week. I suspect they just wanted to start taking the defeat devices out before the recall hit. The letter, which claims to be all about protecting the environment and meeting emissions standards, is noxious in itself, seen in this new light. Next time a Prius! And too bad I love my Golf...
6
One week into ownership of a VW Diesel. Feeling a little sick to my stomach right now....
3
You think you're feeling queasy? I've four payments left on my '13 Sportwagen TDI.
Kudos to the alert person who discovered this flaw. And for their courage in reporting it.
1
Wow you have to hand it to VW/Audi when you mess up like this you call it Fahrvergnügen!
2
Jeebus! This is a deliberate criminal act. Who will go to jail over this? That's right, nobody.
4
oh dear. what a bummer, volkswagen. I have a 2012 jetta sportwagen which I just love - and am about to replace it with a new 2016 golf TDI. now will I? guess I'll just watch and see how this rolls out. . . .
2016 TDIs were supposed to be held in port and could not be imported because the EPA and CAA wouldn't issue the certification of conformance, so am surprised you were able to find one on a lot.
One would think that the Russian proverb, "trust but verify" would automatically be applied by regulators overseeing corporation's adhering to regulations. Apparently not. It makes me wonder who verifies the source code of the electronic voting machines to prevent them from being manipulated to pass spot audits by local voting commissions, but be corrupted by the corporate-designed source code. I guess that since the Supreme Court ruled that corporations are people, we should check and double check their work when it can pervert the will of the real people.
A massive fine that takes away a huge chunk of VW's profits during the period of the violations should be imposed on VW. This is a huge fraud on all of us, one that affects the health and welfare of all Americans. It is a deliberate, calculated violation of our laws obviously from the highest officials at VW. The violations are intolerable.
9
While I agree with most that what VW did was ethically wrong, I think we should be careful to not enforce a double standard. Embedding performance altering code into a cars computer is nothing new. After-market modifications to emissions control systems, both mechanical and electronic are an all too common thing, and in many states perfectly legal.
My two cents:
As an owner of a TDI Jetta my opinion is that VW needs to settle with the customers who were mislead into buying a car that performed well within diesel emissions standards (which is a difficult thing to do). Also, I think the EPA should require the engineers who programed the "defeat device" to write new code that detects aftermarket emissions and performance programs concealed in cars computers.
My two cents:
As an owner of a TDI Jetta my opinion is that VW needs to settle with the customers who were mislead into buying a car that performed well within diesel emissions standards (which is a difficult thing to do). Also, I think the EPA should require the engineers who programed the "defeat device" to write new code that detects aftermarket emissions and performance programs concealed in cars computers.
2
Owner here as well. That'll never happen because the emissions will be fixed. The lingering effect will be how much does our MPG suffer. If below advertised numbers, a class action lawsuit will open VW up for a per mile reimbursement to original owners as long as they own the car.
It could also be a hit to performance that results.
Why? There are many aftermarket programs that increase performance that are well within emission limits. Most simply reduce gas mileage, a decision of the consumer not anyone else. And detecting it at emission testing time is worthless, because reflashing to a valid profile takes all of 1 minute.
All the car magazines that gave nice little awards to the Golf - might want to consider taking them back. Cheaters should not be rewarded in any way.
5
Criminal. I want my money back.
10
This should be investigated as a criminal offense by the Justice Dept. Recalling to fix the emission software isn't a sufficient penalty for a criminal offense.
9
So should every diesel pickup truck owner be put on trial too????
Diesel pickup trucks emit significantly more pollution than a 4 cylinder econo car, especially when the testosterone driven owner puts a computer tuning system on it. Yes, yes the tuning computer can be used for good and not evil.
My friends who own one are happiest when the thing is billowing huge black clouds of smoke......
Diesel pickup trucks emit significantly more pollution than a 4 cylinder econo car, especially when the testosterone driven owner puts a computer tuning system on it. Yes, yes the tuning computer can be used for good and not evil.
My friends who own one are happiest when the thing is billowing huge black clouds of smoke......
I have become convinced that greed is just narcissistic stupidity.
1
Get computers off cars. The more purely mechanical the better.
...and, dump the plastic headlight lenses, too.
...and, dump the plastic headlight lenses, too.
7
You mean the self frosting headlights? That's technology at its best.
And don't forget the buggy whip holders.
1
Computers are the only way to make a sufficiently adaptive control system to meet performance and pollution specs simultaneously across the vast range of conditions cars are expected to operate.
5
I was about to buy a 2011 VW Golf TDI. Divine intervention? Does anyone know if "fixing" the offending cars will reduce their MPG?
3
If the software VW installed in my recalled car a couple of months ago is the fix, it has actually improved MPG.
2
That software was not the fix. In-use emissions test failures after that recall are what led to VW admitting the defeat device: http://www.arb.ca.gov/newsrel/in_use_compliance_letter.htm
Depressing. LOVE my Jetta TDI.
4
Once again, it's unlikely that the responsible executives at VW will be charged individually with crimes that could lead to a jail term. I doubt that the German government would extradite them to the US to stand trial, so all that these execs have to do is to stay out of the US, and they will continue to walk free.
If you own one of these cars and VW reprograms the software, then there is a good chance that your car won't pass future smog tests. Without a passing score, you can't renew your vehicle license, can't drive it, and can't sell it. Seems like someone should force VW to do a buyback/exchange program at their expense based on current value of the car. 500K cars at an average current value of $15K is only $7.5 billion, a drop in the bucket against their $220B in 2014 revenue. Of course, that amount is above and beyond fines and criminal charges.
I suspect that VW is not alone among the automakers in successfully defrauding smog testing equipment. Who's next?
If you own one of these cars and VW reprograms the software, then there is a good chance that your car won't pass future smog tests. Without a passing score, you can't renew your vehicle license, can't drive it, and can't sell it. Seems like someone should force VW to do a buyback/exchange program at their expense based on current value of the car. 500K cars at an average current value of $15K is only $7.5 billion, a drop in the bucket against their $220B in 2014 revenue. Of course, that amount is above and beyond fines and criminal charges.
I suspect that VW is not alone among the automakers in successfully defrauding smog testing equipment. Who's next?
24
This isn't the first time diesel engine manufacturers have been accused of using a "defeat device". Back in 1998, the diesel engine industry and EPA/DoJ settled on a ONE BILLION dollar settlement for using defeat devices. That settlement is also referred to as "consent decree" and eventually led to more stringent diesel emissions standards and use to emissions control devices such as diesel particulate filters (DPF) and selective catalytic reduction (SCR). But that was mostly about heavy-duty diesel engines.
http://yosemite.epa.gov/opa/admpress.nsf/b1ab9f485b098972852562e7004dc68...
What surprises me is that, given a precedent, VW still thought they will get away with such cheating.
http://yosemite.epa.gov/opa/admpress.nsf/b1ab9f485b098972852562e7004dc68...
What surprises me is that, given a precedent, VW still thought they will get away with such cheating.
5
They key question here is : what is the level of variation. I am sure that VW has not put vehicles on the road that are immediately in violation but that it knows "under some circumstances" of engine wear or fuel types and temperatures the engines will not pass. Clearly this is not what you want as an owner and therefore VW has structured software to assist them in the annual inspections. If they level of variation is 1-2% its clearly a violation but might be more about a manufacturer trying to make sure that each of its cars pass under VERY different testing conditions.
Second question to ask is : If I go to different garages on the same day to get a NYS inspection certificate, will my car provide different readings and what is the variation there ? Is VW actually trying to engineer its engine management software ( under testing conditions ) because there is so much variation in the tests ?
Hmm : German engineering of cars versus locally owned testing machines in Brooklyn, Staten Island and Manhattan.. which one would you put your money on ?
There is more than meets the eye here.
Second question to ask is : If I go to different garages on the same day to get a NYS inspection certificate, will my car provide different readings and what is the variation there ? Is VW actually trying to engineer its engine management software ( under testing conditions ) because there is so much variation in the tests ?
Hmm : German engineering of cars versus locally owned testing machines in Brooklyn, Staten Island and Manhattan.. which one would you put your money on ?
There is more than meets the eye here.
5
I think this comment any many others are incorrectly interpreting the allegation is VW trying to skirt state emissions inspections, which have nothing to do with the federal EPA. What VW is accused of is falsifying the federal emissions certification process that allows the vehicle to be sold in the U.S. in the first place. And that's much more serious and has nothing to do with long term wear and tear or any of those things. This is the federal government testing brand new cars and certifying them for compliance with the Clean Air Act. They are definitely going to force VW to take corrective measures, which presumably will affect vehicle performance, which will no doubt lead to a class action lawsuit.
your article should reference diesel-only engines in the recall in your lede. it's buried in mid-story and will confuse casual readers.
3
I just purchased a '15 Mazda 6, the dealer also sold Jedda diesels. The gas Mazda got better gas milage. The Jedda was rated 35 and I'm now averaging 36 after 5K miles. Did VW break the law in order to get more mpg out of their vehicles? That would tend to make them more competitive. I came close to considering the VW, but burning diesel just sounds like a bad idea. Now if it has gotten significantly, say 10-20 mpg better, then perhaps. Just thinking that diesels should outperform gas vehicles in the mpg category, especially since it costs more now.
Why did they have the Jetta TDI's rated at 35mpg? Was it the combined average? The worst my TDI has ever done was 35 city, but I average well over 700 miles per tank on the interstate averaging 70 mph. That's with 13 gallons. There is nothing else out there to touch that.
Be aware, there's EPA milage ratings, and then there's what your car will get when you're driving it. Nearly all cars out there will typically do LESS than their EPA numbers, the TDI diesels are some of the very few that will typicall do BETTER. In 4yrs of 80% fwy 20% city driving, I got consistently 40 and higher MPG on full tank averages with my '10 Jetta. Long hwy trips, 44-48MPG avg. And that's typical for these cars. OTOH, how you drive makes a difference, I don't have the 50mi fwy commute anymore, nearly all city driving, I'm averaging more like 36MPG.
Oh, is diesel higher in WV now? Thought it had taken a dip again across the country, it's currently about 60c less a gallon than regular gas here in So CA and been lower for several months now.
Oh, is diesel higher in WV now? Thought it had taken a dip again across the country, it's currently about 60c less a gallon than regular gas here in So CA and been lower for several months now.
It's highly unlikely this illegal practice is limited to VW.
And it once again illustrates the overwhelming importance of our government oversight agencies—the need for them to be healthy, independent, and well funded—not have their budgets slashed, their independence compromised, and their morale diminished.
And it once again illustrates the overwhelming importance of our government oversight agencies—the need for them to be healthy, independent, and well funded—not have their budgets slashed, their independence compromised, and their morale diminished.
7
Cadillac got caught doing the same thing about 15 years ago.
So they conspired to commit a crime, committed a crime and there is a recall?Why hasn't someone been arrested for this violation of federal law? Someone had to write the program, authorize it, and install it. Whoever issues those directives should arrested!!!
3
This is a proud day for Gina McCarthy at the EPA. Thank you from all of us who have lungs and actually care about what is going into them!!
1
Isn't this hilarious. We are all up in arms about volkswagen's emissions.
I have several hillbilly friends with diesel pickup trucks with tuning systems on the dashboards. Emissions????? Yep they emit plenty.
I am willing to bet that those hillbilly's trucks emit 10-15 times what one of those cars emit.
So before you go picking on volkswagen.....Why don't we take care of the emissions from the diesel pickup trucks first.
I have several hillbilly friends with diesel pickup trucks with tuning systems on the dashboards. Emissions????? Yep they emit plenty.
I am willing to bet that those hillbilly's trucks emit 10-15 times what one of those cars emit.
So before you go picking on volkswagen.....Why don't we take care of the emissions from the diesel pickup trucks first.
8
When we lose these protections, you can thank Republicans.
1
Don't blame anybody but VW. That company is responsible for its violations of our laws.
Europe has equally stringent standards. Did it happen there as well, or just in the US? If just in the US, why? Also, are we sure that VW and Audi are the only companies doing this? If this was so easy to do and avoided detection for so many years, I find it difficult to believe that other companies are not implicated.
Please provide more information and context. Also, a better discussion of the implications, such as likely extent of understated impact on the environment, likely impairment of performance if the vehicle is run at the emissions levels required by regulation, etc.
Please provide more information and context. Also, a better discussion of the implications, such as likely extent of understated impact on the environment, likely impairment of performance if the vehicle is run at the emissions levels required by regulation, etc.
4
So much for "clean" diesel. All automobiles sold in the US, and particularly in California, are suspect for this sort of hack.
VW following in the wake of GM... This criminal activity by automakers won't stop until a few higher-ups face prison time. It's really that simple.
Same thing for big banks, as we all know.
Same thing for big banks, as we all know.
4
Can we get the EPA to oversee the banking industry too?
6
So, was Volkswagen first asked to voluntarily recall these cars? Doubtful it would have been ordered without trying that first. Be helpful, NYT, to include that in the story as well as what Volkswagen said in response to the recall. And, worse, Volkswagen puts out ads telling us about their "clean diesel" cars. Nice work, Volkswagen - puts you right up there with GM on the "too big to tell the truth but still get away with it" scale.
500,000 cars vehicles spread out over six years. Can someone smarter than me do the math using averages to determine how much pollution they added to America?
500,000 cars vehicles spread out over six years. Can someone smarter than me do the math using averages to determine how much pollution they added to America?
2
No hardware is needed for the recall. It is just a software update.
Clean diesels need to be very heavy on exhaust gas recirculation to hold down peak combustion temperatures. Too high temperature fuses nitrogen and oxygen to make nitrous oxides.
Who made the decision to do something strictly with software expecting to get away with it indefinitely? If the software VW installed in my Jetta Sportswagen a couple of months ago is the fix, it performs better than the trick software.
Who made the decision to do something strictly with software expecting to get away with it indefinitely? If the software VW installed in my Jetta Sportswagen a couple of months ago is the fix, it performs better than the trick software.
3
You mean "nitrogen oxides"—and that includes the notorious NOx's that are so harmful.
Can we please have some justice in this country and send these executives to jail for violating numerous fraud statutes and for filing false instruments? Oh, I forgot, they're not black--so criminal laws don't apply to them. (They'll be fined, and the costs will be passed on to their shareholders.)
25
I'll bet that VW is one of the corporations (Corporations are people my friend) who gave bribes, aka campaign contributions, to our congress persons who want to do away with the EPA.
8
Those responsible for this should be prosecuted criminally. What disgusting corporate behavior.
5
I wonder if they do the same thing for cars manufactured in Germany for European markets? They have far stricter air regulations than we have.
That said, it makes me wonder if US manufacturers are doing the same to their Euro fleets. In March I saw a display of Ford _____ (Foci?) hatchbacks at the Munich airport. They were touted as needing only 4.x liters to go 100km. That's equal to ca 70 miles/gallon. How US companies can create such efficient vehicles for a foreign market, and not here, seems even more suspect now.
That said, it makes me wonder if US manufacturers are doing the same to their Euro fleets. In March I saw a display of Ford _____ (Foci?) hatchbacks at the Munich airport. They were touted as needing only 4.x liters to go 100km. That's equal to ca 70 miles/gallon. How US companies can create such efficient vehicles for a foreign market, and not here, seems even more suspect now.
12
US companies can create such vehicles for the foreign market that get great gas mileage due to the fact that those cars (usually) don't have unnecessary amounts of horsepower. I'll give you an example: in 2012 I was in Italy and drove my father-in-law's 2001 Volkswagen Golf TDi. That car averaged 3.8-4.7 L/100km. In American layman's terms that would average 45 mpg. I have a friend in MA who has the same car, same year, diesel as well. He averages a maximum of 30mpg highway driving. The Italian model has about half the horsepower. If America wasn't so beholden to the idea that more (horsepower) is better then perhaps the cars would get better gas mileage. And while I do think that it's terrible what was allegedly done I wouldn't place blame directly on the corporatists without the full story that the NYT obviously hasn't given us here.
1
The Audi ads describe their TDI clean disel technology as "clever", providing superior top end performance.
Apparently a little too clever. Hard to imagine a company like Volkswagen engaging in what is clearly illegal regulatory evasion but pretty hard to deny.
This should bring criminal charges against individuals responsible for or knowledgeable of the decisions to implement "defeat" software.
Apparently a little too clever. Hard to imagine a company like Volkswagen engaging in what is clearly illegal regulatory evasion but pretty hard to deny.
This should bring criminal charges against individuals responsible for or knowledgeable of the decisions to implement "defeat" software.
19
Diesel drivers love the low end torque.
No doubt some low-level engineer will lose his head for display purposes. When are we going to adopt strict liability for corporate officers and jail them when such things happen under their watch?
20
"When are we going to adopt strict liability for corporate officers and jail them when such things happen under their watch?"
So what about strict liability for bureaucrats and other creatures of the government who twist and bend the law to what they want it to mean not what it really means?
So what about strict liability for bureaucrats and other creatures of the government who twist and bend the law to what they want it to mean not what it really means?
I'm afraid that the result of the investigation will be to pursue civil penalties only, and that the executives who cooked up this fraud will escape the serious jail time they deserve.
5
Civil penalties which allow continued criminal conduct by company decision makers is doubly wrong. It essentially condones reckless behavior by company management and penalizes stockholders. It also sends a powerful message that paying government fines is a cost of doing business. Some senior people need to go to jail.
6
As per the procedure used on James Blake, I assume the police will be showing up at VW's US headquarters and throwing the offending executives on the floor and handcuffing them, correct?
18
Who could argue against small government, a de-fanged EPA and the infallibility of private business and an unfettered market? Huge, profit- obsessed capitalist corporations will choose the right path - what could possibly go wrong?
29
Let's see if this time DOJ indicts the individuals at VW responsible for this idiocy. I grew up in Pittsburgh in the 1940s and '50s. Smog kills. Period.
8
How about one day in prison for each car affected, for the President of Volkswagen America?
8
Well, at least it wasn't a willful safety violation that killed 124 people, as was the case with General Motors.
10
Air pollution kills people. It should be possible to estimate how many years of human life this little software dodge will cost.
2
The VW violation absolutely was willful and probably more people will die than 124 but it will be impossible to identify them.
"The software was designed to conceal the cars’ emissions of the pollutant nitrogen oxide, which contributes to the creation of ozone and smog. The pollutants are linked to a range of health problems, including asthma attacks and other respiratory diseases."
That won't kill anyone?
That won't kill anyone?
2
VW is not the same species as bankers--who are much worse--but they are from the same genus. Big corporations of any kind aren't afraid of regulators, and the fines they receive are built in to their pricing models as the cost of doing business. Corporate money has the greatest influence on government policy. So long as that continues, VW and other corporations will continue to violate the law. This should not be a surprise to anyone.
In a world where justice prevails, VW decision makers would be prosecuted and hopefully convicted of criminal violations for their dishonesty. That will not be the result here.
Note: the "defeat device" is not a clever product of German engineering. It's merely a programming command of the onboard software. Any automaker could create the lines of code to get this result.
In a world where justice prevails, VW decision makers would be prosecuted and hopefully convicted of criminal violations for their dishonesty. That will not be the result here.
Note: the "defeat device" is not a clever product of German engineering. It's merely a programming command of the onboard software. Any automaker could create the lines of code to get this result.
18
Shareholders always write the checks to pay the fines assessed to corporations.
A system that defeats pollution controls when no one is looking sounds really devious. So large organizations usually do these things within a cultural norm. Does this mean that other facets of their car designs are ALSO deviously defeating the law and perhaps even safety? I have friends who had one of their products and told me the back doors kept swinging open when they were driving even though they were latched and locked. They had to use bungee cords to keep them closed. The car was only a year old. Are all the problems with these makers seeing the light of day or is this just one more industry that does all their own “quality assurance” so hardly anything gets to regulators or the press?
2
For years other manufacturers have been frustrated by emissions regulations in their attempts to bring more diesels to the US market. VW somehow was offering great diesels at reasonable prices. Now we know how they did it.
23
I want to see Mazda's "Skyactiv" diesel. Their "Skyactiv" gasoline engine comes very close to VW's diesel efficiency, adjusting for the greater energy content of diesel and the inferior aerodynamics of the SUV body style. The Mazda diesel has almost the same compression ratio as the gasoline engine but unlike the gas engine it is turbocharged.
1
Is there a fix for this problem or will the cars need to be scrapped or will they just be free to continue polluting our air? Sounds rather major on the surface. The article's author would do us a favor by looking into the matter a little further.
4
I have a 2005, I know it is an older model but most of the electrical components go bad, not just mine, I have talked with others with younger modles and theirs have done the same. I had one of the 60 modles, besides not having a good heater or air conditioner I loved it. Went forever without a problem. It is all about making money and not taking pride in the product.
2
Very simple... If true, who's going to jail for this? I am a small business owner and you could bet that if our company participated in anything that was a fraction as injurious and deceitful as alleged here, I would without doubt lose my business, my home and be in jail. Corporations are not people - only people have something personal to lose. When you remove that hazard, this is the result.
11
As a career automotive engineer, this makes my blood boil. These vermin at VW/Audi sully the reputations of all of us because they were not competent enough to solve a common design problem without cheating.
VW/Audi should be forced to repurchase the cars at cost because they never worked as required and never will. And corporate criminals should go to jail for this.
VW/Audi Engineers will begin by removing the fraudulent algorithm from the embedded software. But then the cars won't pass emission inspection. If VW/Audi couldn't design a good car in development, there is no hope of solving the problem with a band-aid fix. The only solution is to replace the diesel engines with legally compliant gas engines.
Finally, diesel should be illegal in all passenger cars. Many people die each day from cancer-causing diesel exhaust - people that would still be alive if the cars burned gas more cleanly.
VW/Audi should be forced to repurchase the cars at cost because they never worked as required and never will. And corporate criminals should go to jail for this.
VW/Audi Engineers will begin by removing the fraudulent algorithm from the embedded software. But then the cars won't pass emission inspection. If VW/Audi couldn't design a good car in development, there is no hope of solving the problem with a band-aid fix. The only solution is to replace the diesel engines with legally compliant gas engines.
Finally, diesel should be illegal in all passenger cars. Many people die each day from cancer-causing diesel exhaust - people that would still be alive if the cars burned gas more cleanly.
34
My dad was an auto fuel systems engineer, so I hear you loud and clear. And I'd be first in line to take that repurchase check. They flat-out lied to us in their sales literature. How can I resell my car? Who buys a car that cannot pass an emissions inspection? Or one that's been so choked by the band-aid that it wheezes like a smoker with emphysema?
1
Most likely all that is required to fix this is a new flashing of the ECU SW that will pass the emissions but will give folks worse performance. Basically the car will stay in what was the "cheat" mode (passing emissions) all the time.
You need to talk to more left wingers. Europe loves diesel, so left wingers love diesel.
1
The real story here is the power of computers. They are capable of all sorts of things which is exactly why they should not be allowed on voting machines. But of course they are on voting machines and the public still thinks their votes count. Maybe someday....
9
The LA Times is reporting there could be a fine of up to $35k/car, or $18 bn. THAT will get their, and everyone else's, attention.
2
Not as much as hard time for the executives behind this disgusting plot.
2
I have one of the affected vehicles. I got a recall notice a few months ago to take the car to the dealer to have the engine control computer reprogrammed to correct a pollution issue. I did this and if anything the car is now even more efficient than it was.
2
I got a notice too. I'm assuming they just removed the defeat device from the code? And do you know will the car now pass emissions inspections or are the emissions rhe same?
This is criminal and should result in jail time for the execs found responsible. It's got to be prosecuted under criminal fraud statutes, and not just under EPA regs.
No one should be surprised at criminal behavior from these corporations. They are a "law unto themselves" and have shown time and again that they are motivated by greed and greed alone. "Corporate social responsibility" is an oxymoron.
No one should be surprised at criminal behavior from these corporations. They are a "law unto themselves" and have shown time and again that they are motivated by greed and greed alone. "Corporate social responsibility" is an oxymoron.
8
"The laws and regulation are only as good as the enforcement.”
Hey, there's a novel idea. Why not try it out on those Wall Street crooks?
Hey, there's a novel idea. Why not try it out on those Wall Street crooks?
5
I wonder if we'll now start to hear of GM, Ford, Chrysler, Mercedes, Audi, Honda, Toyota, etc., etc. quietly asking recent customers to drop their cars by the dealer ("little check-up, nothing major, nothing major")?
4
this is no more than retaliation from the Obama Administration because VW exec's complained that the current administration was putting so much money into R&D and subsidizing electric and hybrid autos when diesel cars provide great mpg's and are proven. Go outside the USA and you'll see there are a lot of diesels elsewhere and the USA is behind the times
5
Thank you, VW/Audi, for simplifying my car shopping process. Never buying one of your products.
4
The VW executives responsible must be prosecuted,
in international court if necessary, and if convicted
sent to a maximum security prison with no special
treatment.
in international court if necessary, and if convicted
sent to a maximum security prison with no special
treatment.
2
Being an engineer, I'm somewhat intrigued as to why the computer is even told the car is being tested. If the car is supposed to pass when it is NOT being tested, why even tell the car anything is different?
My recommendation is to eliminate any excuses for why the car (computer at least) even knows it isn't just driving down the highway.
My recommendation is to eliminate any excuses for why the car (computer at least) even knows it isn't just driving down the highway.
12
Yeah, I'd like to know what the technical details are here, but at least on the gasoline side of the world, the emissions testing station does have to plug in to the OBD port and query the emissions readiness monitors to see if the car's internal emissions tests are passing its self-checks.
I don't know what tests are done on the diesel side of the world, but if there is a tailpipe sniffer, it would be trivial for the ECM to know that a diagnostic device is querying the emissions readiness monitors and change its behavior in response to that.
I don't know what tests are done on the diesel side of the world, but if there is a tailpipe sniffer, it would be trivial for the ECM to know that a diagnostic device is querying the emissions readiness monitors and change its behavior in response to that.
3
It probably is merely checking if the car is in neutral or not actually moving when getting revved up. It would be hard to not detect that since the software needs to detect speed and transmission to do what it's supposed to
3
You would have to spoof every other system in the car, from GPS to traction control, which would otherwise be registering a lack of expected change relative to the energy output of the engine and non-engagement of the braking system. In other words, the car could always tell it was being tested the same way that you as the driver or test engineer could; by the fact that it was seeming to run under load without actually going anywhere.
Wow, I love it. Go Volkswagen!!!
4
Wow.
One rarely hears from the pro-corporate-crime, pro-pollution community.
One rarely hears from the pro-corporate-crime, pro-pollution community.
It would be nice to know if these modified cars are sold in Europe or Germany, what the clean air laws there are like, and what sort of coverage the story is getting in, say, Der Spiegel.
Mileage testing should be done by a government agency on cars purchased randomly and secretly. The tests would have to be done openly and with representatives of the automakers present to make sure all cars were tested in the same way and that no one was cheating or cooking the books. Right now the mileage obtained by users seems to be lower than the advertised mileage. We can hope that the official mileage figures are inaccurate to the same extent for all cars, but we do not know that these figures represent performance of the cars or creativity of the testers in gaming the tests.
Mileage testing should be done by a government agency on cars purchased randomly and secretly. The tests would have to be done openly and with representatives of the automakers present to make sure all cars were tested in the same way and that no one was cheating or cooking the books. Right now the mileage obtained by users seems to be lower than the advertised mileage. We can hope that the official mileage figures are inaccurate to the same extent for all cars, but we do not know that these figures represent performance of the cars or creativity of the testers in gaming the tests.
1
Actually, quite the contrary. Users, like myself, see mileage higher than advertised in the EPA estimates; somewhere in the 10-20% higher neighborhood
Diesels are much more efficient than gasoline engines idling in traffic jams.
A recall and fine is not enough. Corporations want to be people? Either everybody involved needs to be prosecuted or VW sales need to be banned in this country for a certain period of time.
Look at pharma, banks and the auto industry. Their crimes affect millions of Americans. To me it's as bad or worse than street crime. Yet these are the entities that finance campaigns, so very little is legislated against the worst white-collar criminals.
It's time to end criminal activity in big business.
Look at pharma, banks and the auto industry. Their crimes affect millions of Americans. To me it's as bad or worse than street crime. Yet these are the entities that finance campaigns, so very little is legislated against the worst white-collar criminals.
It's time to end criminal activity in big business.
8
Reminder- all recent VW's are still way cleaner than the old VW's with recycle bumper stickers yet spewing blue smoke. This probably explains why VW went full-on balls-to-the-wall with the 2.0 TSI, the super-fun tiny turbo 4-bangers smothering every VW dealer lot. I own the Tiguan TSI 4-Motion AWD (not affected) and got heat from my eco-friends for not getting the TDI turbo diesel (affected). The Tiguan is fun to drive. Women drivers needing more cargo space and angry BMW X owners really need to look at the totally new 2017 Tiguan AWD coming soon.
1
Astonishingly conscious law-breaking, requiring an actual conspiracy among very high level employees. This is the kind of act that also should lead to a notable punitive fine above and beyond any normal fine, plus probably more important the government should insist that personal legal consequences fall upon the conspirators. They may be in Germany, but conspiracy to break environmental and automotive regulations is no doubt illegal there also.
12
What a quaint notion that someone should go to jail for breaking the law...at least for white collar criminals...
Yet if you've got tinted skin and maybe carrying an ounce of dope, and probably unemployed, you're gonna spend time in the pokey for sure.
So which criminal is a bigger threat to society? The one that brazenly pollutes the environment (or rates junk mortgages as Triple A Investment Grade) for the sake of making a few more dollars, or the guy smoking a joint?
Yet if you've got tinted skin and maybe carrying an ounce of dope, and probably unemployed, you're gonna spend time in the pokey for sure.
So which criminal is a bigger threat to society? The one that brazenly pollutes the environment (or rates junk mortgages as Triple A Investment Grade) for the sake of making a few more dollars, or the guy smoking a joint?
2
Seems like a good week to go after the automakers! First shot: GM to pay a fine for lying about ignition switches which kill people. Takata is still on the hook to fix 34 million airbags, Chrysler is trying to fob off trailer hitches as safety devices on some of their Jeeps. Now this. This is not like the run of the mill recall items, like the wrong sized hole in the Cadillac ATS' roof glass control bezel. this is massive in its impact in that it flouts the law we designed to protect us and our environment. I agree with others here: we must see someone in a bright orange jumpsuit...and soon.
4
What we're missing is VW's motive for disabling the (unspecified) emission controls when the government wasn't watching. Was performance or fuel economy better with the controls off? Was Diesel exhaust fluid not being injected into the catalytic converter, thereby sparing drivers the expense and inconvenience of a consumable whose only benefit is environmental? Other turbodiesel makers like BMW and Mercedes Benz have programmed their cars to not start if DEF has run dry.
We need deeper reporting on this issue.
The truth may well be that the cars suffer dramatically from any "fix" that is retroactively applied. If I was a VW TDI owner, I would not sprint to the dealership until other owners had been the guinea pigs.
We need deeper reporting on this issue.
The truth may well be that the cars suffer dramatically from any "fix" that is retroactively applied. If I was a VW TDI owner, I would not sprint to the dealership until other owners had been the guinea pigs.
4
It was done entirely with software.
1
This has to be about money.
So, from what I see, the EPA is being heavy handed on the cars because of their adverse environmental impact the emmissions detection devices have when not working properly.
Given that value system, the EPA should be enforceing various other environmentally sound practices such as big oil drilling in the arctic.
They don't, so the hypocracy, very apparent here begs the question.
What really is going on here?
One possible theory could be:
Germany, if that still is where Volkswage operates, has been recently scrutinized by the US for not doing their fair share regarding the refugee crises in Europe.e
In that analsys, the recall is a backhanded way for the US
to apply pressure on Germany to do more.
Kind of like a roving embardo - after the fact.
Given that value system, the EPA should be enforceing various other environmentally sound practices such as big oil drilling in the arctic.
They don't, so the hypocracy, very apparent here begs the question.
What really is going on here?
One possible theory could be:
Germany, if that still is where Volkswage operates, has been recently scrutinized by the US for not doing their fair share regarding the refugee crises in Europe.e
In that analsys, the recall is a backhanded way for the US
to apply pressure on Germany to do more.
Kind of like a roving embardo - after the fact.
This is SO unlike the "We build it right, we are proud of what we build and how we build it" ethic of Mercedes car building! They could EASILY add to their price, if that were what it would take to bring them up to our air standard. People would pay more for the best. Who (which person) is responsible for this decision? Get rid of them, Mercedes, and go back to your old, trusted ways of excellence!
Obviously you don't "see" too clearly. The EPA is going after VW because it installed defeat devices in some of its car models to circumvent environmental standards intended to reduce smog. Period. Conspiracy theory much?
1
My god, these auto company's are criminal organizations. You've GM hiding a defect for over a decade that killed 137 people and injured others, you have Toyota hiding a defect that caused cars to have problems turning off, you have a major supplier of airbags effectively creating shrapnel from their explosive charge try to deny a problem, and so on. These are not something went wrong with a complicated car and we need to fix it, these are people (not just the Corporation) knowingly putting their business interests ahead of peoples lives. And as long as the pay and bonus of the executives is not affected, as long as the stockholders pay the bill, and as long as nobody goes to jail like they deserve, nothing will change. Who's next?
12
And just imagine... they want to write the code for the self-driving cars of the future!
If this egregious violation of Federal and state laws and regulations by a major corporation only results in penalties against the corporate entity, we will have to finally admit that we are truly living in Steve Faser's "Age of Acquiescence."
I certainly hope this does not prove to be the case.
I certainly hope this does not prove to be the case.
5
It's past time for the owners of cars (the public) to also own the software as well as the data generated by the car.
The manufacturers are sure to cry "proprietary" but when public health and the life and limb of the motorist are at stake "trust us" isn't good enough.
The manufacturers are sure to cry "proprietary" but when public health and the life and limb of the motorist are at stake "trust us" isn't good enough.
4
For many cars it arleady is wide open. Subaru, Ford, Nissan, etc, especially turbos, allow you to put whatever you wish into your ECU, takes all of 1 minute to reflash. COBB and others offer a standalone devices the size of phone, or you can get their tuning SW, or even opensource SW, on your PC, get a $10 cable and tune up your ECU (better know what you are doing!).
My BMW 535d brings an even bigger smile to my happiness now
2
Is that Wilmington, Germany?
You're so awesome!
According to a similar article in the WSJ, these cars emit 40X the legal allowable amount of N02, a very powerful greenhouse gas. This is an incredibly deplorable act worthy of nothing less than jail time for numerous players. For this to have been implemented for 6 years, I can only imagine the number of researchers and employees who have had their hands on this, before and during implementation. This is not a program that ostensibly implements everyone from the CEO to the engineers to the high-level technicians.
The EPA needs to seriously come down hard here ($18B sounds reasonable). Without this device, what would MPG's have looked like? How much of their sales depends on the idea of a "cleaner" diesel and great MPG? Volkswagon has defrauded and endangered the EPA, its customers, and the population at large with these. Further, I cannot imagine the bulk of recalls being successful, given that any fix will negatively affect the performance. Shame, shame.
The EPA needs to seriously come down hard here ($18B sounds reasonable). Without this device, what would MPG's have looked like? How much of their sales depends on the idea of a "cleaner" diesel and great MPG? Volkswagon has defrauded and endangered the EPA, its customers, and the population at large with these. Further, I cannot imagine the bulk of recalls being successful, given that any fix will negatively affect the performance. Shame, shame.
35
Nitrogen oxides are not greenhouse gases but they are a major contributor to photchemical pollution (ozone).
Wow. If true, VW has committed a very serious crime. It's hard to imagine how the management of a large and successful company with its public reputation at stake would make that decision.
22
They knew that without it fuel economy and performance would go into the toilet, and they would have no customers.
1
Why is it that bankers and corporate CEOs are immune from criminal prosecution when they break the law? Incurring fines means nothing to these people...it's just a regular cost of doing business. We need to get serious about prosecuting and jailing the individuals who make conscious decision after decision to break the law and sell products they know are dangerous and life-threatening. If it costs them less in fines than they make in profit, then they have every inventive to go on polluting, killing, and pushing dangerous drugs on us guinea pigs...um...unsuspecting consumers.
29
This is probably just the tip of the iceberg for this type of subroutine -- they probably went through pretty rigorous testing to see if their "hack" worked. I wouldn't be surprised if they've been doing this for years.
As for deterrence, it's fairly simple to hide stuff in source code unless the reviewer kind of knows what they're looking for -- so even an independent review of source code isn't a good enough deterrent here.
There need to be massive and crippling fines.
As for deterrence, it's fairly simple to hide stuff in source code unless the reviewer kind of knows what they're looking for -- so even an independent review of source code isn't a good enough deterrent here.
There need to be massive and crippling fines.
158
Start fines at $10,000 per vehicle x 480,000....
Nah, that's not enough by a long shot!
Nah, that's not enough by a long shot!
Prison time for the CEO, accept no substitutes.
Boy - that's a shocker, a most blatant and deliberate circumvention of the law. I'm disappointed as I own an Audi and have owned VW's in the past. This is so blatant that criminal prosecutions of the individuals involved, no matter how high it goes, should follow. The fact that GM employees got away without criminal liability is itself a crime.
170
VW/audi seems were intent on deception all along. GM changed a part to adapt to heavy keychains. They probably should have know the part being replaced was associated with fatal accidents.I see greater wrong with VW.
And to think that car (and tractor) makers are pushing to keep car owners from working on their own vehicles under the guise of safety and environmental concerns, invoking DCMA to insist, for instance, that 1) vehicle owners don't actually own the code in ECUs (they're licensees); so 2) they can’t modify or do anything to or with it; and 3) any modification that impacts operation or inputs to the ECU is a mod to the ECU. Oh, and...4) that farm implements will certainly be used to pirate music and other nefarious deeds.
http://www.wired.com/2015/04/dmca-ownership-john-deere/
http://jalopnik.com/carmakers-want-to-make-working-on-your-car-illegal-b...
$300 to plug in a cable and re-flash a 2001 Subaru during a 5-minute visit to the service bay to fix an engine light? Thanks, proprietary extortion firmware!
http://www.wired.com/2015/04/dmca-ownership-john-deere/
http://jalopnik.com/carmakers-want-to-make-working-on-your-car-illegal-b...
$300 to plug in a cable and re-flash a 2001 Subaru during a 5-minute visit to the service bay to fix an engine light? Thanks, proprietary extortion firmware!
3
"Diesel" should have been in the headline. It didn't appear until paragraph 6. It's an essential part of the story---these manufacturers' more numerous gasoline cars are not involved.
4
But, with many vehicles you can buy a device where you can reflash your ECU to many new standard configurations, or go to a tuner that knows what he is doing and get your ECU customized. The device also saves the stock configuration so you can reflash (take about a minute) to the factory settings before inspections.
I have one for my Subaru WRX from COBB Tuning. Simply reflash and the turbo kicks in quicker, the waste gates and such are managed a tad differently, and viola, in one minute I get 30 more horsepower and much more low end torque. But not at the same MPG that Subaru advertises for the car. And while still in compliance, I'm sure emissions are a bit worse.
You could force a recall, which would reflash the ECU, but 1) very few are going to comply) and 2) even if you somehow forced compliance, it can be changed back with a PC program and a simple $10 cable.
The wave of the future, make your ECUs open, put a basic MPG and emissions flash in there, support these third parties that create different flashes to up performance.
I have one for my Subaru WRX from COBB Tuning. Simply reflash and the turbo kicks in quicker, the waste gates and such are managed a tad differently, and viola, in one minute I get 30 more horsepower and much more low end torque. But not at the same MPG that Subaru advertises for the car. And while still in compliance, I'm sure emissions are a bit worse.
You could force a recall, which would reflash the ECU, but 1) very few are going to comply) and 2) even if you somehow forced compliance, it can be changed back with a PC program and a simple $10 cable.
The wave of the future, make your ECUs open, put a basic MPG and emissions flash in there, support these third parties that create different flashes to up performance.
3
Funny. VW diesels are the sore spot. They are sold throughout the world but were banned here for our tough emissions from 02-09. They then came back in 09 and outsold all domestic compact cars. So with the Chevro-USA company, we have to ward off competition. When you see a freightliner, Mack, Peterbuilt or the likes billowing black smoke, I don't envision VW in that category. I own an 09 VW tdi. Greatest car we have had. 45mpg consistently. Less trips to the station which means less fuel tax. Less fuel sold means less money for lobbyists. Less fuel equals less money for Wall Street. Also, most domestic cars are heading towards diesel as well. Go figure. If your so concerned, why doesn't GM Have to recall their trucks that rot to pieces here with the super corrosive calcium? They leak brake fluid, tranny and oil due to rotted lines. Oh wait. Again. chevro-usa corp
6
Watchdog, you need to do some research other than "I own a VW and it rules".
Most domestic cars are NOT "heading towards diesel". Can you name the one domestic "car" that's a diesel? I can, but I actually know the industry. And it doesn't sell very well.
No light vehicle of recent vintage with a diesel engine is billowing black smoke like a Freightliner, so not sure what your point is.
Have you submitted a concern to NHTSA (not the EPA, which is doing this VW recall) about the GM trucks?
Believe me, chevro-usa is a fantasy. There isn't a chance those guys could conduct any sort of conspiracy. Too complicated
Most domestic cars are NOT "heading towards diesel". Can you name the one domestic "car" that's a diesel? I can, but I actually know the industry. And it doesn't sell very well.
No light vehicle of recent vintage with a diesel engine is billowing black smoke like a Freightliner, so not sure what your point is.
Have you submitted a concern to NHTSA (not the EPA, which is doing this VW recall) about the GM trucks?
Believe me, chevro-usa is a fantasy. There isn't a chance those guys could conduct any sort of conspiracy. Too complicated
I think a nice dump of the source code (or reverse-engineering thereof) is in order. It's fair, objective, and would definitively show what is or is not occurring. There's plenty of hacker types on the internet who would be more than willing to volunteer.
The larger issue is that emissions regulations have become so onerous that it's almost impossible to manufacture a car to reach those standards. I ran into this when I wanted to bring a particular car into the USA. Mercedes makes an E-Class diesel-electric hybrid that gets a legitimate 65-75mpg (US gallons, not imperial). BUT our emissions laws got in the way of bringing that car in...so I had to settle for the same car with a gas engine that only gets 29MPG. What's more environmentally-friendly, a car which gets 29MPG or 75MPG? According to the EPA, the 29MPG gas powered one, which, btw, puts out more soot than the diesel. Merc also sells an auxiliary heater for these cars which allows the heater to run without turning on the car's engine. EPA won't allow it. They want you to fire up the 325HP engine just to get a fan & heat. Wasteful.
Cow farts, due to the non-digestible feed they're given, put out far more greenhouse gasses than cars do. Seriously. I'm all for being environmentally-friendly, but we need to be a bit more open and honest about what the real causes are. No different than having California's consumers to reduce their water usage when agriculture is the overwhelming majority user of water.
The larger issue is that emissions regulations have become so onerous that it's almost impossible to manufacture a car to reach those standards. I ran into this when I wanted to bring a particular car into the USA. Mercedes makes an E-Class diesel-electric hybrid that gets a legitimate 65-75mpg (US gallons, not imperial). BUT our emissions laws got in the way of bringing that car in...so I had to settle for the same car with a gas engine that only gets 29MPG. What's more environmentally-friendly, a car which gets 29MPG or 75MPG? According to the EPA, the 29MPG gas powered one, which, btw, puts out more soot than the diesel. Merc also sells an auxiliary heater for these cars which allows the heater to run without turning on the car's engine. EPA won't allow it. They want you to fire up the 325HP engine just to get a fan & heat. Wasteful.
Cow farts, due to the non-digestible feed they're given, put out far more greenhouse gasses than cars do. Seriously. I'm all for being environmentally-friendly, but we need to be a bit more open and honest about what the real causes are. No different than having California's consumers to reduce their water usage when agriculture is the overwhelming majority user of water.
16
Very well said, Alex. MAny examples exist that show how stoopid are those "eco-nuts" that in order to push their own "ecological" agenda end up doing more damage. Those Eco-nuts usually exert their power through the prohibition of whatever they consider polluting, even when their badly developed measures actually contribute more to pollution. Prohibiting the incandescent bulb has given open permission to promote mercury containing Compact Fluorescent bulbs that pollute in other ways. Lead solder prohibition (RoHS) has produced many more tons of electronic garbage and some tragic accidents where the electronic systems failed critically because the lack of lead in solder produces failures. Lately, the European authorities pretended banning some automakers for not using a new car air conditioner refrigerant that is very flammable and dangerous, because its use would represent an "ecological advance" and so on.
These guys, including GM, are worse than the banksters.
3
It's a close call.
Shame on VW for trying to defraud the public and circumvent our environmental laws. How fitting that the company founded by Hitler had been gassing the public from 2009-2015. Of course I'm not trying to equate this with concentration camps, however the execs responsible for this should do jail time.
6
High-five to California Air Resources Board for sniffing out these cheats.
6
My wife and I own two of these vehicles. In my case, I drive 60 miles per day to and from work, and have averaged over 50+ mpg in almost 50,000 miles. While I fully support the need to correct this condition and deal harshly with those involved, on a selfish level, I hope my mileage remains comparable. I traded in a BMW that barely achieved 20 mpg.
5
I'm glad I don't own any VW/Audi stock!
1
Does this fraud mean I can stop making my car payments? It should.
2
2012 TDi Owner here:
Last year of German production to US. Well built, the TDi diesel gets me 39 mpg under all conditions. Back, oh, two years ago when fuel was over four dollars a gallon, it was real money saved.
(Too) Fast, comfortable, and world class. Nice interior, quiet, Audi without the price...until....
At 83000 miles, my Diesel Particulate Filter failed, mechanically. I was just outside the Federal Emissions Warranty....by 3k. VW picked up half of the $2500 repair job. I got a Check Engine, so, clearly, it doesn't just give a pass. VW should have paid for the DPF, but that is another story.
VW just recalled all of these cars for a "firmware update" I had mine done at a recent oil change. Do I have the "perma-pass' software ? If so, you are not re flashing this car.....
Also, all you folks buying trucks now ? Bad idea.
Last year of German production to US. Well built, the TDi diesel gets me 39 mpg under all conditions. Back, oh, two years ago when fuel was over four dollars a gallon, it was real money saved.
(Too) Fast, comfortable, and world class. Nice interior, quiet, Audi without the price...until....
At 83000 miles, my Diesel Particulate Filter failed, mechanically. I was just outside the Federal Emissions Warranty....by 3k. VW picked up half of the $2500 repair job. I got a Check Engine, so, clearly, it doesn't just give a pass. VW should have paid for the DPF, but that is another story.
VW just recalled all of these cars for a "firmware update" I had mine done at a recent oil change. Do I have the "perma-pass' software ? If so, you are not re flashing this car.....
Also, all you folks buying trucks now ? Bad idea.
Notice the commenters who write that they will not bring in their vehicles for this recall to have the software cheat disabled, because it will significantly reduce their fuel economy. A manufacturer's recall will not be sufficient to bring those vehicles into compliance. Instead the emissions tests themselves should should check for the presence of the software patch and if possible install it during the test. That way dishonest owners can cheat only until the next required state inspection.
18
Government cheating me out of 50mpg on my TDI diesel. They can pound sand!
Anybody who really cares about mileage has already flashed their ECU to completely turn off this DPF system anyway. That said, I'm sure someone will dump VWs rather clever tune to the net so they can be restored after an "upgrade."
Atleon --
If only those who believe as you do could get your own planet, separate from the rest of us.
If only those who believe as you do could get your own planet, separate from the rest of us.
3
Just stop government from regulating industry. a la Tea Party/GOP. Problem solved.
2
No, just add an extra $1 tax on Gas like the Democrats in CA do, then spend it frivolous programs
Lr get Obama's hand picked Attorney General to start indicting these people, like she didn't do with GM.
It may have escaped your notice but the non-indictment of the bankers and now the car companies has happened under a Democrat administration.
It may have escaped your notice but the non-indictment of the bankers and now the car companies has happened under a Democrat administration.
I assume they think they're clever. Shame on VW and all their Green propaganda.
1
Where's the MULTI-billion dollar fine? Where's the criminal indictment of executives?
2
Wow. If this is really true, we need both jail time for the execs involved and heavy fines for the company.
2
I think that amongst our "amoral" corporate class this is referred to as "creating shareholder value" and "pursuing a strategy of growth". Only in this fashion can management meet their "irrational growth targets" and ultimately get their bonuses so that they can continue living (or try to live) in a dream world of money, fast cars and luxury vacations. Like drug addicts they pursue quarterly targets in search of their next bonus (hit?) Consequences, laws, ethics are merely "risk factors" that need to be managed. Any corporate system that allows for this type of decision making to succeed is dangerous, dysfunctional and unfortunately... ubiquitous. What's even more frightening is that many politicians and interest groups insist that industry should police itself.
6
Citizens United. The fix is in, structurally.
They should be required to repurchase the cars and junk them! That would be a real penalty, and most appropriate since the cars could not have lawfully been sold!
1
THERE IS NO RECALL!!! - THis was a notice of violation that VW must fix-but the affected cars are safe and legal to drive!
So who were those software employeeswho knew what they had obtained with their clever timed intervention? Any of them going to be fired? Nope, the corporation will be fined. Individual accountability? Oh please- is so passé. Sign on with the corporation and do their dirty work and nothing will happen to you. Don't do their dirty work and you are fired.
They should be jailed --- all of them, top to bottom.
1
Why do you focus on the programmers rather than the people who ordered the programmers to do it. Do you REALLY think some programmer whose job is to simply write code to some specification arbitrarily decided to stuff this in just for run without anyone in management knowing? Why would VW only try to make sure the car passes emissions after they've told the car it's being tested, and not all the time?
1
If the performance of the cars suffers once the emissions software is fixed, there should be some serious financial compensation to owners. We have a right to expect we are making purchasing choices about cars that meet legal standards. A class action suit from a half million car owners could easily outstrip any fines the EPA levees.
6
Make sure you didn't sign a "no class action lawsuit" and "you have to use an industry arbitration panel" clause when you bought the car. That's the latest trend in corporations trying to escape personal responsibility for their actions.
2
Fine... but with such a large number of owners filing a collective Class action suit, it will result in a ridiculously small payment to each one.
Is there to be any compensation for the buyers who were duped into buying a car they bought for environmental reasons??
26
The class actions will be coming shortly.
Recent articles in the Times have examined corporate malfeasance and raised the issue of personal executive responsibility. Many readers have expressed exasperation that corporations routinely flout laws and regulations and, when called to account, pay a fine, charge the penalty off to the cost of doing business, and move on - sparing the responsible people within the company from personal accountability. GM’s recent brush with the law, which involved many highway deaths, is an egregious case in point.
If my child or spouse were among those who died because some corporate weasel decided on profit over safety, I would not rest until I knew who made the deadly decisions or set the lethal policies.
It’s high time that the responsible men and women kept anonymous by their corporate employers are named and indicted. Treat them fairly, of course - but let’s end the era of faceless corporate crime.
If my child or spouse were among those who died because some corporate weasel decided on profit over safety, I would not rest until I knew who made the deadly decisions or set the lethal policies.
It’s high time that the responsible men and women kept anonymous by their corporate employers are named and indicted. Treat them fairly, of course - but let’s end the era of faceless corporate crime.
20
For follow-up,
How does it detect when testing is being conducted?
What is the difference in emissions between when the device is on / off? (What is "pollute far more heavily") How does that compare to emissions of similar cars?
What penalties are possible, against the company and against company executives?
How does it detect when testing is being conducted?
What is the difference in emissions between when the device is on / off? (What is "pollute far more heavily") How does that compare to emissions of similar cars?
What penalties are possible, against the company and against company executives?
2
Emissions test usually involve a device plugged into a diagnostic port normally located under or near the steering wheel. I'd speculate that it detects when such a device is connected.
1
It knows it is being tested when an OBD II diagnostic tester is connected to the vehicle at the Emissions Test facility.
1
When you hook up the test module, it detects this and uses the vehicle's own sensors to read emissions. It also should download certain historical information about the vehicle. What is happening here, at least so far as I can tell, is the subversion of both processes. If your vehicle has a legal emissions limit and it is being exceeded...deliberately...and hidden...that's a problem for all of us.
2
Seriously? Wow. So I have an affect Jetta. What does this mean to me as an owner? What recourse do I have now?
Very uncool. As a VW guy for 16 years now, I'm not all that surprised though. I've become waaay too familiar over those years with VW's gift for over-engineering certain things. This is surely the nadir of that kind of stuff.
Many of the little quirks of VW/Audi's version of "German Engineering" are great, useful, forward-thinking, etc. Some are just frustrating and clear indication that the Black Forest has been lost to folks there staring at individual trees instead, though. (Okay, that's not terribly near Wolfsburg... but there's our bad analogy du jour.) A lot are in the interest of safety, which is great.
Looks like my Jetta TDI is affected. Can't imagine that better emissions characteristics will also not equate to decreased fuel economy. Which is a shame, because these things embarrass many ridiculously tiny petrol-powered cars that weigh half again less, in mpg terms.
It's also a shame because here in the States, if you want a diesel-powered vehicle that is small and light enough to need only 4 cylinders and will still take advantage of the diesel mpg differential (ie, not large and heavy enough to need a 6-cylinder diesel only so it doesn't get patently crummy mileage), VW is pretty much it, although that is changing slowly. Thus I'm guessing it will turn out that they've somewhat shot themselves in the foot in that regard.
I'm also guessing it will turn out that this is how some of their vehicles "comply" with US regulations without that urea-injection system.
Many of the little quirks of VW/Audi's version of "German Engineering" are great, useful, forward-thinking, etc. Some are just frustrating and clear indication that the Black Forest has been lost to folks there staring at individual trees instead, though. (Okay, that's not terribly near Wolfsburg... but there's our bad analogy du jour.) A lot are in the interest of safety, which is great.
Looks like my Jetta TDI is affected. Can't imagine that better emissions characteristics will also not equate to decreased fuel economy. Which is a shame, because these things embarrass many ridiculously tiny petrol-powered cars that weigh half again less, in mpg terms.
It's also a shame because here in the States, if you want a diesel-powered vehicle that is small and light enough to need only 4 cylinders and will still take advantage of the diesel mpg differential (ie, not large and heavy enough to need a 6-cylinder diesel only so it doesn't get patently crummy mileage), VW is pretty much it, although that is changing slowly. Thus I'm guessing it will turn out that they've somewhat shot themselves in the foot in that regard.
I'm also guessing it will turn out that this is how some of their vehicles "comply" with US regulations without that urea-injection system.
6
That's not true anymore. BMW offers a 2.0L 4 banger turbodiesel, rated 31 city 43 highway. I routinely get mid 40s driving up to 80 mph on rural freeways.
I just finish reading Nicholas Kristoff's piece about Johnson & Johnson's criminal behavior in off-label marketing of its drug. Now this. What has happened to the moral compass within corporations? Is it completely gone?
40
You would be correct--the moral compass, if not completely gone, has been fitted with a defeat device. This goes for almost every sector of business. And the punishments for evil deeds are far too meek to deter.
In a word, "Yep!"
See for instance Inside Climate News' expose of Exxon's manufacturing doubt on climate change after studying it themselves for 12 years so honestly that that realized the peril their company was in. Here is an article from Scientific American, 2013 on how 'dark money' has replaced known funding sources for support of climate change denial: http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/dark-money-funds-climate-chang... And here is the paper the article references: http://drexel.edu/%7E/media/Files/now/pdfs/Institutionalizing%20Delay%20...
See for instance Inside Climate News' expose of Exxon's manufacturing doubt on climate change after studying it themselves for 12 years so honestly that that realized the peril their company was in. Here is an article from Scientific American, 2013 on how 'dark money' has replaced known funding sources for support of climate change denial: http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/dark-money-funds-climate-chang... And here is the paper the article references: http://drexel.edu/%7E/media/Files/now/pdfs/Institutionalizing%20Delay%20...
You can't expect a soulless corporation that's mission is to make money to have moral compass. That's the reason we need regulatory agencies to represent the side of humanity that doesn't want to see corporations able to cheat, lie, steal, corrupt and ruin. Because they will, every time, every industry.
All software in vehicles, especially software like this that may impact legal and standards compliance, must be free-as-in-freedom.
The next time, VW could add code to mis-steer the vehicle based on who is driving and how fast--and we wouldn't know someone was being targeted for murder unless we managed to extract the code from the burning husk of the car.
--what, you say? "That sounds too far-fetched?" Fingerprint scanner locks exist. Figure the rest out from there.
The next time, VW could add code to mis-steer the vehicle based on who is driving and how fast--and we wouldn't know someone was being targeted for murder unless we managed to extract the code from the burning husk of the car.
--what, you say? "That sounds too far-fetched?" Fingerprint scanner locks exist. Figure the rest out from there.
4
Many cars to have open ECUs. You buy a $10 cable and a program on a PC or standalone device, and you get all sorts of new SW you can flash. When you need to get inspected, you re-flash the original SW (takes about 1 minute), when you are done and home, you reflash to your high performance SW. Very simple.
Enjoy those open ECUs while you can.
It is my understanding that the companies that make the slot machines in Atlantic City's casinos have to submit the machines' software source code to a third party who examines the source code for "intentional irregularities" on behalf of the NJ state regulators.
If it is not the case already, this is a good argument for requiring the auto makers to provide their cars' control computers' source code to government or independent examiners to search for such (clearly intentional) illegal "features".
I have to admit, however, it is a "neat" hack. Criminal, clearly, but clever.
If it is not the case already, this is a good argument for requiring the auto makers to provide their cars' control computers' source code to government or independent examiners to search for such (clearly intentional) illegal "features".
I have to admit, however, it is a "neat" hack. Criminal, clearly, but clever.
120
Installed software should be also subject to on site spot checks at dealerships. But of course, the day is not far off when every car will be internet connect and so software "patches" could be downloaded post purchase. Clever hackers can only be defeated temporarily.
Care to chance a guess at how many managers will go to jail for knowingly demanding that engineers design the hack? And how many engineers who designed it will be jailed?
1
Could they please do this for voting machines, especially those which leave no copy of the ballot.
This is very disappointing. I've owned several Volkswagen vehicles in my lifetime, and I've always viewed the brand as an affordable means of access to the famously lauded German engineering and performance. Knowing that Volkswagen makes the Audi, Porsche, and Lamborghini brands only helped to strengthen their reputation. But now the brand is associated with intentional criminal behavior--behavior designed to put their profits above the environment and the physical well-being of their customers. That is a huge blow to the reputation of the Volkswagen brand (and their other brands). It may take Volkswagen a long time to recover from this damage to their reputation--and it should--but that is still quite sad.
31
welcome to Capitalism. Its a jungle out there and large companies will do whatever it takes to have a competitive advantage and increase the bottom line. They often have the morals of a sociapath. VW no doubt took a very calculated risk and I doubt that polluting the air and peoples health was much of a factor if any in that decision. Only whats the chance of getting caught vs how much money will we make doing this.
I wish NYT told us how this issue came about. Did EPA find this out on their own by testing a random VW car or did they have a mole?
I wonder how EPA is going to spend that money....
I wonder how EPA is going to spend that money....
11
Excellent question. The administration certainly seems to have their boot on the neck of the auto industry lately. Is this part of a grand climate change plan, have the auto companies suddenly become more devious, or has it become easier to catch them?
@Stan,
Maybe the NSA has finally done something positive with their over reaching power.
Maybe the NSA has finally done something positive with their over reaching power.
Monetary penalties collected by EPA go directly to the general federal treasury, not to EPA's budget. EPA never sees a dime of the penalties it collects.
3
Congratulations VW management, I was strongly considering buying one of your models. But you have lost my sale with this egregious maneuver.
16
Does the EPA and/or the administration have the authority to do that?
The article states the EPA issued a notice of violation. The article does not explicitly state that the recall is something the EPA can do, nor did it say the EPA issued the recall, just "the Obama administration."
Which agency issued the recall request? Under what authority? The EPA has no authority to recall automobiles, as far as anyone knows.
The article states the EPA issued a notice of violation. The article does not explicitly state that the recall is something the EPA can do, nor did it say the EPA issued the recall, just "the Obama administration."
Which agency issued the recall request? Under what authority? The EPA has no authority to recall automobiles, as far as anyone knows.
1
The first sentence of the story says that the EPA "directed Volkwagen to recall" the cars. Sounds like they essentially said that VW had better do it or face some other consequence, but it is literally VW that is doing the recall.
The EPA DOES have the explicit right to issue a recall of offending vehicles and it did so. The EPA is a part of the Administration.
And will the resolution of this matter be made public, as it would in, say, a trial?
In what venue will the conflict play out? Only is a series of letters back-and-forth? Who will "prosecute"? How will we know VW's response, and the government rebuttal of it?
VW has ostensibly been caught at fraud. It would be nice if conduct of the dispute were not hidden in lawyer's offices and government conference rooms.
A charge has been brought - let's see a little sunshine on how it plays out.
In what venue will the conflict play out? Only is a series of letters back-and-forth? Who will "prosecute"? How will we know VW's response, and the government rebuttal of it?
VW has ostensibly been caught at fraud. It would be nice if conduct of the dispute were not hidden in lawyer's offices and government conference rooms.
A charge has been brought - let's see a little sunshine on how it plays out.
26
Fines are not enough.
This is a bright and shining opportunity for the Justice Department to prove its relevance. It absolutely must refuse to consider any settlement that does not include jail time for key executives who did or should have known of this criminal activity. Absent turning the key on these predators, Corporate America will continue in their Teflon belief that stealiing and cheating are normal, acceptable business strategies in the United States.
In addition, VW must claw back all performance bonuses of those involves, and must return a portion of the purchase price to every owner of the affected vehicles, who bought them under false pretenses.
This is a bright and shining opportunity for the Justice Department to prove its relevance. It absolutely must refuse to consider any settlement that does not include jail time for key executives who did or should have known of this criminal activity. Absent turning the key on these predators, Corporate America will continue in their Teflon belief that stealiing and cheating are normal, acceptable business strategies in the United States.
In addition, VW must claw back all performance bonuses of those involves, and must return a portion of the purchase price to every owner of the affected vehicles, who bought them under false pretenses.
83
Cheating is intrinsic to our culture. We should condemn and deplore but do nothing to effect fundamental change.
It would not be surprising coming from a US automaker, but Germany? Was this software written in Germany, or are Americans responsible for this violation of law?
4
Waiting for clarification:
Why were the devices necessary? What happens when emissions controls are on during normal driving? Does this Impact maintenance costs, engine performance, fuel efficiency? Are the cars even driveable without this? Is this a US problem, or was it done here because of stricter emissions controls. And what, if any, was the impact of six years of evasion on air quality in places where these cars were driven in large numbers. As a VW diesel owner who likes these cars (good gas mileage, very peppy engine) -- yikes.
Why were the devices necessary? What happens when emissions controls are on during normal driving? Does this Impact maintenance costs, engine performance, fuel efficiency? Are the cars even driveable without this? Is this a US problem, or was it done here because of stricter emissions controls. And what, if any, was the impact of six years of evasion on air quality in places where these cars were driven in large numbers. As a VW diesel owner who likes these cars (good gas mileage, very peppy engine) -- yikes.
22
In order to reduce emissions of nitrogen oxide, cars mix some of the exhaust gasses with the intake gasses (air & fuel). This is typically only done at cruising speed, not while accelerating. Older cars used an Exhaust Gas Recirculation (EGR) valve for this purpose. Nearly all of today's cars have a Variable Valve Train (VVT) which allows the exhaust valve to remain open during part of the intake stroke of the piston.
It does slightly reduce power during cruising, but the affect on fuel economy is negligible. Lower power during cruising does mean that the transmission is more likely to shift to a lower gear during hill climbing, but on level/downhill surfaces, it actually causes the engine to consume less fuel than it would without EGR.
It does slightly reduce power during cruising, but the affect on fuel economy is negligible. Lower power during cruising does mean that the transmission is more likely to shift to a lower gear during hill climbing, but on level/downhill surfaces, it actually causes the engine to consume less fuel than it would without EGR.
California emission rules are very strict and quite expensive to maintain. New York City's are substantially the same, so every car built for sale in New York State has to pass California rules. For instance, no after-market catalytic converters are allowed on such cars. I found out the hard way, last month!
But as a result, LA has greatly reduced the smog caused by auto traffic. Worth it, even though it cost me $3000 to replace my Subaru's three converters in order to pass NYS inspection. Could have crossed the border into Pennsylvania and gotten aftermarket converters installed for a few hundred.
But – what does being a citizen mean? It has to mean a higher calling than acting like a consumer, consumed with a quest for low price regardless of quality, and environmental outcomes.
But as a result, LA has greatly reduced the smog caused by auto traffic. Worth it, even though it cost me $3000 to replace my Subaru's three converters in order to pass NYS inspection. Could have crossed the border into Pennsylvania and gotten aftermarket converters installed for a few hundred.
But – what does being a citizen mean? It has to mean a higher calling than acting like a consumer, consumed with a quest for low price regardless of quality, and environmental outcomes.
1
Modern diesels have a particulate filter that catches small bits of unburnt fuel (the black smoke from an old diesel basically). The hotter an engine burns, the less of this there is. However, high temperatures generate more NOx, which causes smog. The DPF needs diesel injected periodically to get real hot and burn up the stuff it's stored. So, mileage goes down. VW apparently programmed these to run hotter, meaning better mileage at the cost of more smog. Frankly, NOx emissions are not as big a problem as small particulates (think lung cancer), and one of these mistuned is still producing less smog in a year than your neighbor's 72 GMC on one trip to home depot.
2
In other news, an NSA backdoor was discovered in the entertainment system.
3
This is not good, obviously.
That said, it is curious that the biggest fine ever handed out, as cited, was to a Korean manufacturer, and now this, a German manufacturer. I wonder if we look as hard at our own companies.
The fix should be easy, an over the air update should be able to turn the environmental mode on permanently. Whether an over the air update should be called a recall is dubious, to me. Tesla did the same thing not too long ago.
That said, it is curious that the biggest fine ever handed out, as cited, was to a Korean manufacturer, and now this, a German manufacturer. I wonder if we look as hard at our own companies.
The fix should be easy, an over the air update should be able to turn the environmental mode on permanently. Whether an over the air update should be called a recall is dubious, to me. Tesla did the same thing not too long ago.
32
So it is okay for them to take my 45 mpg vehicle that I paid more money for to get that extra mpgs and turn it into a 35 mpg vehicle?
1
These cars are likely not over-the-air updatable.
1
You mean are the U.S. base companies that employ UAW workers (or are partly own by the UAW) getting a break? Doesn't seem so - GM just had hammered for the ignition switch debacle. But it's always good to consider motives.
One can assume VW resorted to this cheat because the affected vehicles performed poorly with the proper environmental controls in place. The recall is a total illusory punishment as most owners will prefer to leave the defeat device in place and retain the car they thought they were purchasing rather than suffer reduced performance.
The only meaningful punishment for such a blatant and cynical violation of the law is to send some VW executives to prison and fine the company a significant sum.
The only meaningful punishment for such a blatant and cynical violation of the law is to send some VW executives to prison and fine the company a significant sum.
73
VW shouldn't be allowed to punish their buyers for this. They should be required to buy the vehicles back.
1
Is there any way to enforce a recall? Fix the vehicle at the next emissions inspection or face fines?
1
It took the EPA six years oir more to find the cheat how do you expect an emission inspection to discover this software? Then their is the little issue recompense to the owners for cheating into thinking the car performed better than it would if emission controls were unblocked.
I wonder if the new software which runs the pollution devices all the time will make these cars less fuel efficient and thus increase pollution via. more fuel burned? Or, will new software make the car hard to drive?
3
My guess is that it will make the exhaust gas recirculation system work harder. This will mean, at a minimum, the need for more scheduled maintenance.
4
I'am sure performance and fuel efficiency will suffer. It has to be the reason they did it.
4
My best guess is it affects perceived performance... increasing pollution controls typically reduces pep... Thus a less "fun" drive which they've been touting on their commercials with the old ladies lately...
Who buys diesels anyway? As a loyal VW/Audi customer, it seems diesels are relics of the past. Gas is bad enough, but we're all headed to electric eventually, aren't we? Hopefully VW makes up for this and moves on, because I've always thought that they make the best affordable cars that are fun to drive for ordinary folks - 'folks wagons'. I guess Mazda is coming on strong now in that category. Maybe it's time to switch...
4
VW's may be fun to drive but their reliability ratings are abysmal.
4
I do for one. And (with cheating software on) my Jetta is fun to drive, and gets 45 miles with a gallon. True, electric cars will be better (likely not nearly as fun) - but only if you produce the electricity the right way: solar/wind/hydroelectric/(nuclear), NOT coal.
2
Actually I bought a diesel VW two years ago and love it! Diesel is not the smelly diesel of old and here in California cheaper than gas and DOUBLE the mileage. Drives like a dream too. My understanding is the new diesel formulation is much different. The exhaust doesn't smell at all...the car is new and just passed smog but perhaps that will change? At any rate I get 35 mpg overall and well over 40 highway so I hope I'm sparing the environment more than when I was driving my gasoline engine car.
5
This was done intentionally to defeat clean air standards and save the manufacture some money. Which execs will NOT go to jail over this one?
52
In a similar situation in Germany, the executives would go to jail.
4
Yup. Good point.
They stole, cheated, polluted, and put public health at risk - sounds like a crime to me. But corporations are only a "person" when it gets them a tax break or a US senator. When it comes to responsibility, then suddenly they are an amorphous blob that is just following some law of nature.
Somewhere else in America a black kid just got put behind bars because he had a dime of pot.
They stole, cheated, polluted, and put public health at risk - sounds like a crime to me. But corporations are only a "person" when it gets them a tax break or a US senator. When it comes to responsibility, then suddenly they are an amorphous blob that is just following some law of nature.
Somewhere else in America a black kid just got put behind bars because he had a dime of pot.
2
If someone doesn't go to jail for this, there's something seriously wrong! This has got to be one of the most outrageous acts committed by a car manufacturer, and there can be no excuse made. If the description in the article is accurate, they programmed the vehicle with the express intent of breaking the law - no other interpretation seems even vaguely plausible!
106
If this is a criminal act, this may show how forcefully AG Lynch will be using criminal laws to punish corporations and their executives. Recall that she recently announced a new policy in this regard.
20
The Defeat Device is probably just monitoring the rotation of front and rear wheels and possibly the handbrake. For example if the drive wheels are rotating and the other wheels are not and/or the handbrake is on then the car is being tested for smog. To defeat the defeat device just make sure all wheels are turning while testing for smog?
2
Nothing wrong with diesels. This is all about the crimes of VW. Please don't end up to be one of those ignorant Americans we read so much about. Again, diesels are fine, VW no.
I own one of the recalled Jetta diesels. While the mileage and driving experience are both great, we have spent way too much on countless sensor replacements just to keep the check engine light turned off (we don't pass inspection in our state if the light is on). And now this. Bye, bye diesels.
10
"We don't pass inspection if the light is on"...
Another fine example of the stupidity ofeco-phanatic legislators: Any car should be MEASURED for its emissions, period. IF it complies with the limits, then it MUST be allowed to run freely. There are MANY cases where the idiot "check engine" light does NOT automatically mean high emissions, but some other artifact. Intelligent governments in action!. Here in Mexico City, we were penalized by stupid authorities just by possesing older than 8 years old cars, independently of many cars being in PERFECT conditions and measuring well under the emission limits. Fortunately, the Mexican Supreme Court determined that was unlawful and allowed us to drive our emissions-complying cars again, independently of their year-model (age). Now those stupid authorities are purposefully mis-adjusting the traffic signal lights in order to "prove" emission levels raising. That "Eco-illogical" public servants should be jailed, together with VW executives!
Another fine example of the stupidity ofeco-phanatic legislators: Any car should be MEASURED for its emissions, period. IF it complies with the limits, then it MUST be allowed to run freely. There are MANY cases where the idiot "check engine" light does NOT automatically mean high emissions, but some other artifact. Intelligent governments in action!. Here in Mexico City, we were penalized by stupid authorities just by possesing older than 8 years old cars, independently of many cars being in PERFECT conditions and measuring well under the emission limits. Fortunately, the Mexican Supreme Court determined that was unlawful and allowed us to drive our emissions-complying cars again, independently of their year-model (age). Now those stupid authorities are purposefully mis-adjusting the traffic signal lights in order to "prove" emission levels raising. That "Eco-illogical" public servants should be jailed, together with VW executives!
This is one recall notice that I will ignore, then. I prefer the higher gas mileage rather than bowing to the environmental Komisars.
5
Your selfishness is showing...
4
And what about the unnecessarily dirty air you create? Don't you need to breath? The people behind you do.
1
That's a false syllogism. You do have the choice of getting high gas mileage as well as lower pollution. Your dog and the rest of us will thank you.
2
What about criminal action?
11
This is a blatant criminal act and individuals responsible for it should certainly be prosecuted and handed out lengthy sentences.
The company should pay for the medical treatment of all breathing related problems in the country during the period the cars were on the road, in addition to punitive financial penalties.
The company should pay for the medical treatment of all breathing related problems in the country during the period the cars were on the road, in addition to punitive financial penalties.
14
this is a pre-meditated crime worth who knows how many millions of illegal dollars. And yet they are only told to fix it. If you stole a $100 from Walmart you go to jail. VW should be fined a commiserate amount to clean up the air they polluted and the sales they would have otherwise not made.
71
...commensurate...
4
As a former Volkswagen owner, I have to say that I am deeply shocked that they were able to make a piece of electronics that works.
260
Well, it was software so maybe they're better at that;-)
I couldn't agree with you more! VW Beetles and properly working electronics are mutually exclusive things!
1
Brilliant, hysterical, and right on the money, Bill-- from another former VW owner.
(And VW wonders why it's losing market share!)
(And VW wonders why it's losing market share!)
2
VW could make this could all go away. Just get Tom Brady's lawyers.
7
The title, or somewhere early in the article should make some mention of this being vehicles designed to use Diesel gas. It wasn't until halfway through the article that I found out it was in reference to the diesel line of VW cars. As a VW owner of a non-diesel car, this is still pretty disturbing.
This is a pretty timely article too, considering VW was just named the world's most 'sustainable' auto group on 9/14 by the Dow Jones Sustainability Index. This takes into among other things, "Climate Strategy." Guess this honor should be revoked in light of this.
This is a pretty timely article too, considering VW was just named the world's most 'sustainable' auto group on 9/14 by the Dow Jones Sustainability Index. This takes into among other things, "Climate Strategy." Guess this honor should be revoked in light of this.
13
This certainly seems like a criminal act. Obviously, many owners won't voluntarily return the cars - the fix will replace the tiger in the tank with an asthmatic kitten - and VW's fines should continue as long as vehicles remain in service without the correction, proportionately to the number of those vehicles. Something like $10/day/vehicle should prompt some sort of response from VW - perhaps they'll find a safety defect requiring recall, that will get owners to bring the cars in to the dealer.
35
$10/day is not nearly enough.
This was a deliberate, premeditated criminal act. The sanctions must be severe enough so that no one even thinks of doing it again. Perhaps $1,000/day.
This was a deliberate, premeditated criminal act. The sanctions must be severe enough so that no one even thinks of doing it again. Perhaps $1,000/day.
4
It' up to state authorities to revoke all inspections for these cars.
2
If the auto manufactures were suspended from selling vehicles. They wouldn't cheat and cut corners all the time. A fine and stern letter is nothing.
17
Why doesn't the EPA 'recall' the executive(s) that approved this decision?
20
Kind of hard to recall executives in Germany.
3
Businesses know no shame; it's only profits and shareholder equity/dividends. I can only marvel at the legal sleight-of-hand that permitted a business to have a "religion" in Hobby Lobby and force that "religion" on its employees who may not share it.
This also calls into question the REAL abilities of successful CEOs who are trying to run for the presidency, not to mention their ethics and morals.
This also calls into question the REAL abilities of successful CEOs who are trying to run for the presidency, not to mention their ethics and morals.
30
It's not a stretch to fit Hobby Lobby into this article; it's more a contortion.
5
The inclusion of a subroutine such as this in engine management software is not something that happens by accident. It requires that someone make a decision to do this; that computer programmers be directed to write this subroutine; that the subroutine be tested to make sure that it works as intended; and that someone with corporate authority authorize and direct the inclusion of this subroutine in production software installed in new vehicles on an ongoing basis.
Those things all demonstrate premeditation. Somebody made a knowing, conscious, intentional decision to commit these acts in order to circumvent valid and applicable federal and state legal requirements. There is no possible way whatever that this was unintentional or accidental. Somebody made a conscious, intentional decision to break the law.
It is entirely appropriate that the US Department of Justice is investigating this, as well as the EPA and CARB.
A great many of us like cars, enjoy driving cars which perform well, and understand that automakers compete with each other on the basis of performance. This is nothing like auto racing, however, where teams operating a very limited number of vehicles in an off-road environment push the edge of the rules in an effort to be more competitive. There is a great difference between pushing the rules of a private race-sanctioning organization, and intentionally violating federal and state law intended to protect the public.
Those things all demonstrate premeditation. Somebody made a knowing, conscious, intentional decision to commit these acts in order to circumvent valid and applicable federal and state legal requirements. There is no possible way whatever that this was unintentional or accidental. Somebody made a conscious, intentional decision to break the law.
It is entirely appropriate that the US Department of Justice is investigating this, as well as the EPA and CARB.
A great many of us like cars, enjoy driving cars which perform well, and understand that automakers compete with each other on the basis of performance. This is nothing like auto racing, however, where teams operating a very limited number of vehicles in an off-road environment push the edge of the rules in an effort to be more competitive. There is a great difference between pushing the rules of a private race-sanctioning organization, and intentionally violating federal and state law intended to protect the public.
520
Of course, diesels have higher compression than gas engines, so run hotter and produce more NOx. It is probably quite a technical challenge to deal with this. I wonder what the other diesel manufacturers such as Mercedes do, or if they're doing the same as VW.
2
Imagine if they put all that effort into simply building a cleaner-running vehicle!
All the more reason the future needs to be electric.
All the more reason the future needs to be electric.
2
Inappropriate decisions are made far too frequently in mass-production facilities. This is why we have Federal inspectors in airports, meat-processing plants and certain departments of the big banks, just to name three industries I'm aware of. There are probably many more, or ought to be...
1
I own one of these cars. It was represented to me that it was an environmentally clean choice. Now, it turns out that for the last 6 years, I have been pumping out nitrogen oxides like crazy.
I was defrauded. In addition to civil penalties paid to the government, I want a class action lawsuit to reimburse customers who bought these cars based on the manufacturer's false representations.
I was defrauded. In addition to civil penalties paid to the government, I want a class action lawsuit to reimburse customers who bought these cars based on the manufacturer's false representations.
416
Me too! I feel like a criminal and like I can't drive my car until they fix this, that's for sure.
4
Maybe buy an American car next time?
2
I did. A 2015 Corvette.
1
Corperations are now people.....
Then it's time for VW to make the perp walk to jail.
Then it's time for VW to make the perp walk to jail.
98
I am a generally cynical person, but this is shocking. This should be a jailing offense! Since it is not possible to jail a corporation, the CEO should designate who should go. This does not seem like the kind of behavior that could be carried out by one or even a few "bad apples." Any car company found to have installed defeat devices should have their vehicles recalled, and be "sentenced" to a ban on all sales for a period of time.
301
"Since it is not possible to jail a corporation.." But they do all have CEO's. If they were actually held accountable and sent to prison we would see a lot less of this kind of thing I think, I'm look at you Goldman Sachs.
3
"Since it is not possible to jail a corporation, the CEO and all others involved should go."
Fixed that for you.
Fixed that for you.
5
"not possible to jail a corporation"? Since corporations are people, maybe it should be. If a corporation is found to have committed a criminal act such as this one, then the entire management level population of the corporation at the time the act was committed should concurrently serve the sentence. Watch how fast corporations would start complying with all laws after the first sentence starts being served.
6
This is a conscious, carefully planned violation of the law. I would be glad to see a very heavy penalty exacted. Really heavy, like all profits made from the offending vehicles.
74
All profits made is not nearly enough. The penalty must actually impose a cost, such as 10 times profits made + severe penalties while offending cars are on the road + jail time for the top people, including the board of directors.
2
Don't want to wait for a response from VW to see if the EPA is over reaching? Nah. That would be just crazy, right?
This is incredibly reprehensible. Only banks are supposed to be able to sidestep regulatory rules!
320
What a let-down for mommy's safe clunker of a car! Now which car can mommy take her child to soccer practice or ballet classes?
3
Wa gee heck, let'm walk to the dole office and let'm be livin' in a cardboard box. Don't need no practice to kick dem stones.
Remind me to avoid Westchester, NY.
Remind me to avoid Westchester, NY.
This article needs an update to define "recall" in this instance. I assume that disabling the guilty software is not enough, but how will the emissions be made retroactively compliant? Will VW have to take back the cars?
14
Most likely it will merely noticeably decrease their fuel economy.
3
How clever. You've got to hand it to German engineering.
196
I think it's brilliant as well.
5
The 'Pocket Battleships' constructed between the world wars were not unlike this kind of 'CIRCUMVENTING' THE RULES, by the Germans.
4
The people who live in the tech bubble in Silicon Valley are breathing the poisoned air. Brilliant?
3
I'm pretty sure if I installed a 'defeat device' on my electricity meter at my house that i'd end up at the police station facing charges.
305
u got that straight!!!
look what happed in NYC recently when they
by passed a gas meter......the bypass leaked
building blew up
people killed
some lawyers are gonna get REAL rich from that
and THIS too!!
look what happed in NYC recently when they
by passed a gas meter......the bypass leaked
building blew up
people killed
some lawyers are gonna get REAL rich from that
and THIS too!!
7
My ex-wife's sister did this. When they got caught, the power company gave them a choice: Pay us the average amount that you were using prior to installing the defeat device, for each month while the device was installed... or go to jail.
She paid the power company what she owed.
She paid the power company what she owed.
5
The standards are ridiculously stringent. I applaud Volkswagon for doing this, and look forward in the future to hacks like this being applied to circumvent other, ever-tightening, useless regulations.
8
I assume you're not an air breather then?
Let's see -- every other car manufacturer meets the standards. But they're "ridiculously stringent". Really? Not stringent enough as you see what it does to the Earth's atmosphere.
Let's see -- every other car manufacturer meets the standards. But they're "ridiculously stringent". Really? Not stringent enough as you see what it does to the Earth's atmosphere.
140
Some men simply wish to watch the world burn - or in this case - drown.
37
wow, that's foolish. spend some time in the diesel smog of Eastern Europe or Lima and then say that. our (relatively) clean air is a luxury that people apparently don't notice. please move to Beijing where your beliefs in regulation dodging and carcinogens is embraced as a way of life.
153
Prosecute the bosses. And At GM too.
18
A private "successful" auto corporation decides to break the laws of our country. And Republicans are running around calling for less or no Regulations. VW officials should go to jail, of course, after being charged and convicted.
489
Representatives of the VW union and the German state where VW is headquartered sit on the VW board of directors.
1
I can agree with that statement, partially. How about looking at the ridiculous regulations the EPA puts in place regarding diesels?
How dare you suggest putting the Job Creators in jail !
2
ruins the image of the 'clean' diesel
18
A Jetta owner in California, I am appalled by this finding. I only hope the recall is swift and painless and does not affect the excellent gas mileage this car gets, as that was a primary factor in our decision to purchase the vehicle. Shame on Volkswagen.
249
It, most definitely, will decrease your MPG. Engines, gasoline or diesel, are like humans; they eat (fuel) and breathe air. Anything that reduces the engine's ability to breathe (reduced airflow from intake to exhaust), which almost all emission controls do, will hurt gas mileage and power output.
2
It will not be painless. The only reason VW would have have this is to create an illusion of low pollution along with good fuel economy. With the hack disabled fuel economy will drop noticeably.
3
It probably will affect the gas mileage, and as a result there will probably be a (successful) class action lawsuit filed to compensate all the Jetta owners who now will get lesser mileage and performance.
1
Unbelieveable! These executives should be rounded up and thrown in jail right now!!
22
If this is true, and I suspect it is, both VW and some employees need to be held criminally liable. I am hard-pressed to envision any kind of viable excuse for an automaker deliberately building cars designed to evade the law. The company should be required to install the required emissions control hardware, whatever the cost per unit, not just remove the offending software. And then in addition, VW should be fined the amount of the cost of the recall repairs. This software was originally installed by VW to improve its bottom line, and whatever corrective and/or punitive measures imposed should have a major negative impact on that bottom life. Maybe then the lesson will be learned.
212
Jail time as well for executives and employees involved in this crime. Might go all the way down to the dealer level as well - what sort of training did service personnel receive in repairing and using this feature?
65
They won't hold Wall Street criminally liable...why should this be any different?
7
good question
2
It would be nice if this article explained what this recall means for owners of these cars. I assume the fix will negatively affect the vehicles' performance.
74
Agreed. The fix will almost certainly make gas mileage and/or engine power worse. I expect a lot of VW owners will be "unable to find the time in their busy schedules" to get the software fix.
3
My guess is this may be especially bad news for owners of models with the particulate filter (instead of the urea system). The higher NOx they are facilitating with this 'cheat' results from higher combustion temperatures, which enable a more complete burn (= less particulate matters). Those filters already clog up prematurely--read up on the forums--and are very expensive to replace. It's even worse if you have an '09 or '10 model, where the DPF is of one piece with the whole exhaust behind the catalytic converter.
1
Yep, it'll use more diesel to run the emissions controls and mileage will drop significantly. I wouldn't bring mine in for a "fix."
3