If someone wants to be drunk and obnoxious go to Vegas. Many Napa and Sonoma Valley vintners are farmers. They invest in their land, they invest in their grape harvests and they hire winemakers who can make a wine that is an art form. It's rural here and it's not about snobbery. Anyone and everyone is welcome in the wine country. Natives of all stripes will be overjoyed to share their knowledge of wine, food and the beauty of the location. But anyone who is just coming for a drunken party should perhaps find another venue. Doesn't matter if you're a celebrity, a ladies' book club or anyone else. If you're old enough to consume alcoholic beverages, then you're old enough to behave like an adult! And that means having respect for others and not making a total fool of yourself. Want to have a raucous party? No problem. Just go to a venue that is designed to accommodate that, and where you won't ruin the experience of someone else, who has maybe saved up for years to come for a once-in-a-lifetime visit to the Wine Country.
I like being around happy people laughing. I wouldn't want to be around sour pusses who frown at you for laughing.
On the other hand, it sure would be nice for restaurants and bars (and maybe wine trains, too) to have better accoustics where the sound doesn't bounce all around off of hard surfaces and you can't have a conversation because it's too loud.
On the other hand, it sure would be nice for restaurants and bars (and maybe wine trains, too) to have better accoustics where the sound doesn't bounce all around off of hard surfaces and you can't have a conversation because it's too loud.
1
After reading this article, I will definitely not be taking the wine train. I was once on a transoceanic flight, trying to distract myself from my fear of dying in a plan crash, when a woman complained that I was laughing too loud at the movie, Calendar Girls. I certainly was laughing. I definitely didn't think I was laughing so loud. Luckily they didn't throw me off the plane. Also, I am hard of hearing and have been told that makes me speak louder.
Now I try to stay away from places that are too quiet. It is very embarrassing to be told I am too loud.
Now I try to stay away from places that are too quiet. It is very embarrassing to be told I am too loud.
1
Does anyone else think this article missed the boat? The issue isn't about ejecting loud and obnoxious people but racial discrimination. To take this case and then write an article about the problem of obnoxious drunk people in Napa (which, as a native to the area, I can confidently say are 99% white) is to implicitly dismiss the charge of racism. I don't claim to know what actually happened in this case, but to write this article in this way is a journalistic cop-out.
3
Racism is definitely the book club's complaint.
I can confirm Americans stand out as being particularly loud (and insensitive) even when sober. No matter how loud the Tube screech, or how important the safety announcement, they can shout right over it.
It is, however, matter of degree - there are plenty of obnoxious Brits and the Spanish and Italians can work up a good head of steam in a family group. That being said, any group sitting together and drinking will get louder as the day/night goes on.
Restaurants and wine tastings will attract both booze-cruise groups and those expecting a slightly classier approach. I believe it's up to the establishment (and any associated transportation) to cater to their customers. There should be quiet rooms/carriages and separate party rooms/carriages. Even a drunk can figure that out
It is, however, matter of degree - there are plenty of obnoxious Brits and the Spanish and Italians can work up a good head of steam in a family group. That being said, any group sitting together and drinking will get louder as the day/night goes on.
Restaurants and wine tastings will attract both booze-cruise groups and those expecting a slightly classier approach. I believe it's up to the establishment (and any associated transportation) to cater to their customers. There should be quiet rooms/carriages and separate party rooms/carriages. Even a drunk can figure that out
2
I lived in Northern California for many years, and almost right away I was taught a simple truth: only dilettantes and wannabes take the wine train. The whole set up invites people who are only interested in getting smashed, ie bachelor parties and the like, not appreciating wine in any real way. Habitués and oenophiles steer clear.
8
In recent years, I've noticed more and more patrons in upscale restaurants behaving badly. Typically, it's a table of 4 or more where their conversations and laughter escalates throughout the evening (as more alcohol is consumed) where other tables cannot carry on a normal conversation without shouting themselves. We've experienced a few horrendous experiences in some of most expensive restaurants in town that would be on par with the noise level of some of the most out-of-control frat house parties.
Very rarely will the restaurant take any action upon receiving complaints. It's either, "we'll move you" or "we're sorry." Even those restaurants where we've been long-time patrons have failed to take action against drunk and unruly tables, even when we've told them we'd never come back.
More and more, we've decided to stay-in on our appointed date night and do an at-home, over-the-top meal versus dropping a few Franklins or more while being captive to a group of overbearing bores who impose their antics on everyone in the restaurant.
Very rarely will the restaurant take any action upon receiving complaints. It's either, "we'll move you" or "we're sorry." Even those restaurants where we've been long-time patrons have failed to take action against drunk and unruly tables, even when we've told them we'd never come back.
More and more, we've decided to stay-in on our appointed date night and do an at-home, over-the-top meal versus dropping a few Franklins or more while being captive to a group of overbearing bores who impose their antics on everyone in the restaurant.
9
The "book club" was rowdy enough to bother others who were also entitled to having a pleasant wine trip. Now they are being equally obnoxious, saying they just want to help others with their lawsuit when most likely they want a settlement. The train company should see them in court and let the evidence show the truth. My bet is that these patrons were indeed behaving badly.
9
It seems that a racial discrimination suit is the new line of action. A group of Black women are put off a train. Maybe their behavior reflected 'conduct unbecoming.' Maybe they were asked to quiet down, but refused. Maybe they were told they would be asked to leave the train - not pushed from a moving train, but asked to leave if they did not settle down. And maybe, as the last option available, they were removed. Is any of this possible, or is race card the only answer? I think we need to think about a pendulum swing that is out of control. We are not racist thugs.
8
It was a book club that would also get together for lunch or tours. One of the ladies was in her eighties. When they booked the tour, they mentioned that it was a large group and because of that, they could be loud. The group was given assurances that would be okay.
The owner of the company in his apology mentioned all the facts and maybe you should google the apology so you can become more informed.
I'd love to join that book club, but distance is a problem.
The owner of the company in his apology mentioned all the facts and maybe you should google the apology so you can become more informed.
I'd love to join that book club, but distance is a problem.
7
I have been on plenty of wine trips, tours, tastings, etc. here and abroad. I have seen some people tossed for being drunk, swearing, loud mouthed, rude and essentially anti-social to the intent of the event and within the context of the event. The book club people were probably loud and obviously did not self-police so others did it for them. The comments about them being "different" are silly and actually quite stupid. When you are rude and loud out of context, it is OK for others to ask you to please be more considerate. The fact that they hired a lawyer who now wants "sensitivity training" for the staff is equally absurd. If I were the asked, I'd say "Buddy, enroll your clients first". This entire situation sound like little jerks in a sandbox looking for a fight over their kool aid. Grow up.
14
Fully agree. "When you are rude and loud out of context, it is OK for others to ask you to please be more considerate."
What I have seen, particularly in the US, is that such a request is often greeted as some infantile perceived interference with "American freedoms", "American liberties", etc., and then it degenerates from there.
I recently had a very similar case with four unruly women visiting a patient at a hospital who was sharing the room with my terminally ill relative. After requesting them to lower their voice and their music (yes, music in a hospital room), the situation quickly degenerated into accusations of racism. When that did not stick, then their attacks went into personal insults. I immediately requested that my relative be moved to another room, rather than continue to be subjected to this scene. It was indeed, as you say, a situation of "like little jerks in a sandbox looking for a fight over their kool aid", willing to use anything, including the race car, just to stick to antisocial behaviour.
What I have seen, particularly in the US, is that such a request is often greeted as some infantile perceived interference with "American freedoms", "American liberties", etc., and then it degenerates from there.
I recently had a very similar case with four unruly women visiting a patient at a hospital who was sharing the room with my terminally ill relative. After requesting them to lower their voice and their music (yes, music in a hospital room), the situation quickly degenerated into accusations of racism. When that did not stick, then their attacks went into personal insults. I immediately requested that my relative be moved to another room, rather than continue to be subjected to this scene. It was indeed, as you say, a situation of "like little jerks in a sandbox looking for a fight over their kool aid", willing to use anything, including the race car, just to stick to antisocial behaviour.
6
While I wasn't on the wine train with this particular group of women, I believe they were probably just a little loud and needed to understand the environment that they were in. I doubt they were doing anything that inappropriate and I do think its unfortunate that they were embarressed in the manner in which they were escorted off the train. But I think no matter what the color of your skin you have to be aware of the effect you have on the environment of which you are in. I think that is something that is being lost in today's society. How do you effect the people around you? When you want to laugh and be loud and enjoy your friends it can be annoying to be in an environment of people clinking wine glasses, with lowered voices, and serious demeanors. But you have to respect that because you signed up to put yourself in that environment. And I really think that is all that this particular instance comes down to.
So this is a little off topic but I do think it is an important topic which is when did Napa/Sonoma become the next Vegas? I worked for a winery pouring wine in a small tasting room about five years ago and I noticed, all of a sudden, a huge increase in bachelor/bachelorette parties and people coming to Napa and Sonoma to party not taste wine. I saw all sorts of poor behavior such as cutting grapes of the vine, urinating on the vines, getting sick in the tasting room, etc. When did Napa and Sonoma and wine tasting become the next Vegas?
So this is a little off topic but I do think it is an important topic which is when did Napa/Sonoma become the next Vegas? I worked for a winery pouring wine in a small tasting room about five years ago and I noticed, all of a sudden, a huge increase in bachelor/bachelorette parties and people coming to Napa and Sonoma to party not taste wine. I saw all sorts of poor behavior such as cutting grapes of the vine, urinating on the vines, getting sick in the tasting room, etc. When did Napa and Sonoma and wine tasting become the next Vegas?
7
We travel to CA Wine regions several times a year (from Anderson Valley & Lake County all the way down to SLO/SLH) and have for many years now. We avoid like the plague any winery or tasting room that has a tourist van or limo in its parking lot. Too many unpleasant experiences trying to learn & enjoy the wine while being overrun by "wine gulpers". Same thing in Texas on the 290 Wine Trail & Hill Country area. Midweek is definitely the only time we'll go to Napa & Sonoma and we stay off 29 and 12 as much as possible.
One thing I've noticed is that a lot of people think Napa (or wherever?) is Las Vegas -- and then are shocked when they discover that wineries close at 5, most restaurants aren't open late, "bars" are few and far between, and that grape growing is farming and these communities are, at their heart, agricultural communities. We stay at a small inn in St Helena in the vineyards, and one couple we met at breakfast was complaining about the noise in the fields at night -- we were there during harvest -- and asking why the inn owners didn't tell the vineyard harvesters to pick their grapes during the daytime so as not to disturb the guests. Really?
If you're not there to learn & enjoy the wines and appreciate the whole experience, then a wine bar is your best bet. Or, stay in Vegas Bachelor & Bachelorette parties.
One thing I've noticed is that a lot of people think Napa (or wherever?) is Las Vegas -- and then are shocked when they discover that wineries close at 5, most restaurants aren't open late, "bars" are few and far between, and that grape growing is farming and these communities are, at their heart, agricultural communities. We stay at a small inn in St Helena in the vineyards, and one couple we met at breakfast was complaining about the noise in the fields at night -- we were there during harvest -- and asking why the inn owners didn't tell the vineyard harvesters to pick their grapes during the daytime so as not to disturb the guests. Really?
If you're not there to learn & enjoy the wines and appreciate the whole experience, then a wine bar is your best bet. Or, stay in Vegas Bachelor & Bachelorette parties.
11
When the idea of the Wine Train was first proposed, some winemakers pushed back. They were concerned that the culture of the Wine Train would degrade the touring experience in Napa through incidents like those that Ashley Southall describes here. It looks like they had a good point.
It's like teaching kids. The teacher has to maintain order to make their experience in the classroom one that improves their lives. Rowdiness is not permitted. With a sufficient amount of alcohol consumption, tasters cease to be tasters and become kids.
New Orleans has a deep, fascinating culture, and drunks on Bourbon Street generally don't partake in that. But being drunk on Bourbon Street is another cultural activity in New Orleans. In that model for Napa there are two Wine Trains: one in which people discuss terroir, and one in which spouses stick forks into each other.
It's enormously satisfying to be able to enjoy and discuss great wine in a culturally astute group of people. Without some focus on the wine itself and the culture that produces it, the Wine Train can become a sotted Disneyland that is just another meretricious exercise in one's life here in the U.S.
It's like teaching kids. The teacher has to maintain order to make their experience in the classroom one that improves their lives. Rowdiness is not permitted. With a sufficient amount of alcohol consumption, tasters cease to be tasters and become kids.
New Orleans has a deep, fascinating culture, and drunks on Bourbon Street generally don't partake in that. But being drunk on Bourbon Street is another cultural activity in New Orleans. In that model for Napa there are two Wine Trains: one in which people discuss terroir, and one in which spouses stick forks into each other.
It's enormously satisfying to be able to enjoy and discuss great wine in a culturally astute group of people. Without some focus on the wine itself and the culture that produces it, the Wine Train can become a sotted Disneyland that is just another meretricious exercise in one's life here in the U.S.
7
I have no clue as to whether the group was being horribly inconsiderate or simply having a lively time. Unfortunately some people automatically 'see' rude behavior in people who look or act differently from themselves -- because they are anticipating it based on their own prejudices - and also all groups drinking can get louder, and less inhibited.
Hearing that the women were laughing too loudly - not swearing or fighting or falling down drunk - but laughing - that makes me suspicious.
So as long as there is a high level of alcohol consumption in addition to the tasting - the wine train should come up with better options, such as, as suggested, cars designated for different approaches - larger groups, partiers, etc.
Hearing that the women were laughing too loudly - not swearing or fighting or falling down drunk - but laughing - that makes me suspicious.
So as long as there is a high level of alcohol consumption in addition to the tasting - the wine train should come up with better options, such as, as suggested, cars designated for different approaches - larger groups, partiers, etc.
6
What ever happened to just being courteous? According to what I read, people complained three times about this group. Just quiet down. Don't turn it into a race issue when it was one about noise.
26
According to what I read, one woman complained three times. You need to read the comments of the other passengers who supported the ladies as being classy. Furthermore, the Wine Train promotional videos which show loud white people having a raucous time on the train while embibing needs to be viewed yb anyone who would try to label the ladies as discourteous.
#blacklivesmatter
#blacklivesmatter
6
Only Americans would go for something as gauche as a "wine-tasting train," where, I presume, the main point is to visit many wineries and drink a lot of wine, with the foresight of a designated driver on rails (unless it was the Gourmet Express package, where the main point is to enjoy good food and scenery). Loud, drunk people on a train - what else can one expect?
2
Carrie - what's gauche are the presumptions you make in your comments. I've done the wine train several times. First of all, it doesn't stop and visit the wineries. There's an option of a lunch or dinner train and you're served multiple courses and wine is all extra and optional. It's called the wine train, since it snakes through wine country (and originates in the City of Napa).
3
Hey if you go bar hoping, people will drink. If you offer a ride with free wine, people will drink.
What is the big surprise then, when people on these trips get drunk?
Not all of them are snobs out to tell you how two exact same wines taste so different (I work at a wine importer, I have seen pros give a score of 88 and a score of 92 to the same wine, the same night, they just had a different bottle).
Most of these people are out to have a good time, and enjoy the ride and free drink. Let them. Only ask them to respect each other.
What is the big surprise then, when people on these trips get drunk?
Not all of them are snobs out to tell you how two exact same wines taste so different (I work at a wine importer, I have seen pros give a score of 88 and a score of 92 to the same wine, the same night, they just had a different bottle).
Most of these people are out to have a good time, and enjoy the ride and free drink. Let them. Only ask them to respect each other.
Hey Shark - there's no free wine on the wine train. Do your research before spitting forth incorrect information. The focus of the wine train is to serve food - lunch and dinner primarily. Wine is an option (and is relatively expensive) on the train rides.
This is part of the "me first" obsession in our culture. If you consume alcohol and get loud enough to affect others right to enjoy themselves then not only have you had too much to drink, you are also an ass.
This is not about race, this is about manners and clearly these women don't have them.
This is not about race, this is about manners and clearly these women don't have them.
22
Prevailing plaintiffs in a lawsuit alleging racial discrimination may be awarded reasonable attorneys fees and "treble damages." Should a company forced to spend thousands of dollars on a legal defense to a frivolous discrimination claim be afforded the same relief?
3
Unless you were a witness to the incident, you have no idea whether or not their claim is "frivolous."
1
If wineries and wine operators are concerned about the drukenness and party attitude, perhaps they need to do some thinking as to how they execute the tastings. The last few (several?) tastings I've been to had no where to spit or dump unwanted wines until I requested it.
4
Americans now believe that the space around them in public is an extension of their living room. People need to have a public persona--quiet and polite.
31
There is absolutely nothing worse than being held captive audience to obnoxious, inconsiderate individuals who believe the hilarity of their group's antics and the ever rising decibels matter more than my desire to have a normal level conversation with my companion. I've been stuck on an airplane, on the tarmac, four hours, with a group of women heading to New Orleans who decided to begin the party early. It was hour after hour agony, their whoops and hollers not to be blocked out by my heavy duty earplugs. This is just abuse. They were white, by the way, but had they been black, I'd have been just as outraged.
When people believe their manner of fun should encroach upon my ability to have my manner of fun, the party's over. Get out of the bus, hire a driver and a van and do your own thing. When we're in a group of disparate people, consideration must reign.
When people believe their manner of fun should encroach upon my ability to have my manner of fun, the party's over. Get out of the bus, hire a driver and a van and do your own thing. When we're in a group of disparate people, consideration must reign.
39
Well written Regina - While not exclusively an "American" problem, our culture of newly affluent people tend to have the money but not the culture. The result is behaving like the trash TV models they watch.
7
Exactly when did it become OK for the whims of a few to trump the peace and comfort of the many?
Why has the desire for common courtesy become fodder for litigation?
Why has the desire for common courtesy become fodder for litigation?
24
The answer to when it becomes OK for individuals to annoy others is when parents don't teach their children good manners. Today, too many parents coo and constantly tell their kids everything is a "good job" no matter what, so of course the kids grow up thinking they are omnipotent little princes and princesses. I read an article here in the Times not too long ago about mothers in Park Slope thinking it cute that their little dears knocked over old ladies walking on the sidewalk carrying groceries. That is the same thing taken to the extreme.
2
As a long-time "foreigner" in the US, I have observed that for many people here, things like courtesy to others, lowering your voice, and not inflicting yourself on others is something that goes against some mythical individual 'liberties' or 'freedom'.
6
These days, an awful lot of Americans are raised without ever being taught how to use their "inside" voices. They stumble through life, braying all the way, oblivious to the fact that the rest of us couldn't care less about their opinions, experiences, problems, etc. I try to avoid public spaces if at all possible any more. Americans have become a society of boors.
40
I don't even think this is recent phenomenon. When I helped prepare American students to study abroad, one of the things we tried to instill in them was that we Americans ARE LOUD compared with most other countries' citizens, and that the Americans should lower their voices when in public. It rarely worked - the students' habits were too ingrained. And last week I was on an Air France flight from Paris to Marseille. The ONLY voice that could be heard from where I sat on the plane was that of an American who was "regaling" his Swedish seatmates with the story of his recent travels and questions about theirs. It's fine to show an interest in your traveling companions (though this also is something most Europeans would not do), but not to do it at a decibel level that people three rows behind you can hear the entire conversation.
10
Perhaps a more humane solution of neutralizing the antisocial behavior of drunken guests -- but is not the purpose of the whole trip to make them drink unlimited quantities of wine? -- is to have a cargo car attached to the train, where the unruly passengers would be made to cool off. This would be simpler than having them set off the train in the middle of nowhere or chaining them to be dragged behind the train.
2
Perfect solution! Make sure to reserve a small part of the cargo car for a couple of pigs to go along for the ride as well.
If you read the multiple articles about the recent book club incident, the train in question deserves whatever it gets. Anybody who manages any high end event with booze or even lots of food has to figure out how to deal with people.
The book club did ample preparation with the company, explained the number of their group. A rude old white lady was NOT moved when she complained, pretty obviously because she hated black ladies laughing. Hey anybody in hospitality would have moved that old crank! Instead they acted embarrassingly, racistly, and self destructively.
In hospitality, ask anybody who has ever worked a wedding, you happily prevent bad interactions. Then you notice them and intervene. Before the damage is done. It was not in this case any over indulgence, the complainer began before wine was served. One lady in the group was over 70, they were all professionals, a book club! Their crime was their race. The company hired nincompoops who did not know the first thing any waiter at a restaurant has to know about dealing with people and groups.
The book club did ample preparation with the company, explained the number of their group. A rude old white lady was NOT moved when she complained, pretty obviously because she hated black ladies laughing. Hey anybody in hospitality would have moved that old crank! Instead they acted embarrassingly, racistly, and self destructively.
In hospitality, ask anybody who has ever worked a wedding, you happily prevent bad interactions. Then you notice them and intervene. Before the damage is done. It was not in this case any over indulgence, the complainer began before wine was served. One lady in the group was over 70, they were all professionals, a book club! Their crime was their race. The company hired nincompoops who did not know the first thing any waiter at a restaurant has to know about dealing with people and groups.
10
If passengers are overly loud they should be asked to get off the wine train.
Pretty simple really. These ladies may be the victims of racism or just their own boorish behavior...
Pretty simple really. These ladies may be the victims of racism or just their own boorish behavior...
33
People everywhere are loud and noisy-----and annoying. Go to any restaurant or bar and the noise is too much.
I wasn't on the Wine Train, so I can't comment on that. But I have been in restaurants where a group of 6 or more have been so loud I could not hear my wife speak.
America---quiet down please.
I wasn't on the Wine Train, so I can't comment on that. But I have been in restaurants where a group of 6 or more have been so loud I could not hear my wife speak.
America---quiet down please.
49
I agree wholeheartedly. It seems that one cannot go anywhere--be it a fairly upscale restaurant or a wine train--without suffering from the noise pollution of others. Makes me want to stay home and enjoy my own cuisine with a bottle from the cellar. Oh wait...
8
Some restaurants are actually designed to increase the noise level ( or at least not to reduce it), because it ( apparently) is linked with the appearance of a large happy crowd - and more drinks purchased. It's not always the patrons - it's how sound is absorbed or bounced around. Perhaps if enough of us let it be known that we hate this and won't patronize high noise places, at least some will revise their thinking and their space.
6
Flying back to New England back in the early 1980's, exhausted from a research trip, the plane was joined by perhaps 20+ nuns returning from a renewal conference of some sort.
Of all groups, these nuns began unified singing of "We are a gentle, loving, people" modified to "Women are a gentle...." After perhaps 45 minutes of this same song and multiple complaints, the flight staff asked them to stop singing. Passengers were then exposed to the very angry side of these nuns, several trying to get the song going again, several arguing incessantly with staff.
Thus, alcohol is but an exacerbating factor, a powerful one. I couldn't help but think, oh, where are the vows of silence.
Of all groups, these nuns began unified singing of "We are a gentle, loving, people" modified to "Women are a gentle...." After perhaps 45 minutes of this same song and multiple complaints, the flight staff asked them to stop singing. Passengers were then exposed to the very angry side of these nuns, several trying to get the song going again, several arguing incessantly with staff.
Thus, alcohol is but an exacerbating factor, a powerful one. I couldn't help but think, oh, where are the vows of silence.
3
Ashley,
You start off by sharing histories of really outlandish guests who were put off the wine train. Then you quote the train CEO. If you are going to quote the CEO then get a quote from the attorney of the ladies. These women were humiliated and marched through the train, then put off the train by police all because one woman complained.
The exploration of what is too loud is a diminishment of the experience these classy ladies were treated to. And to lightly mention that many members were Black... it was a group of Black women and one White. Either you didn't do your research on social media or you are attempting to have this article stand on its own... it cannot. This is a serious topic and deserves more insight and investigation from guests on the train that day. The wine train company posted negative comments and immediately removed them because they were false. These women were never rowdy as detailed on social media by other guests on the train. #laughingwhileblack @calisarenee
Why is this so serious? Because there is plenty of history where Africans in this country have been disenfranchised on the basis of a White person falsely crying fowl. And while we are not getting lynched on this, it is a negative power play, just on the wine train. We must all overcome the pervasive racial undercurrents.
You start off by sharing histories of really outlandish guests who were put off the wine train. Then you quote the train CEO. If you are going to quote the CEO then get a quote from the attorney of the ladies. These women were humiliated and marched through the train, then put off the train by police all because one woman complained.
The exploration of what is too loud is a diminishment of the experience these classy ladies were treated to. And to lightly mention that many members were Black... it was a group of Black women and one White. Either you didn't do your research on social media or you are attempting to have this article stand on its own... it cannot. This is a serious topic and deserves more insight and investigation from guests on the train that day. The wine train company posted negative comments and immediately removed them because they were false. These women were never rowdy as detailed on social media by other guests on the train. #laughingwhileblack @calisarenee
Why is this so serious? Because there is plenty of history where Africans in this country have been disenfranchised on the basis of a White person falsely crying fowl. And while we are not getting lynched on this, it is a negative power play, just on the wine train. We must all overcome the pervasive racial undercurrents.
11
A wine tasting train is not a wine drinking train. So everyone on the train should be told, before even making reservations, that they are expected to talk quietly, make use of spittoons, and to remain sober. People should be told that a party should NEVER be held on the train.
If you want to drink and a few laughs, go to your local wine bar. If you want a party go to your local bar. Again. a wine tasting train is not a wine drinking train.
If you want to drink and a few laughs, go to your local wine bar. If you want a party go to your local bar. Again. a wine tasting train is not a wine drinking train.
7
It's my understanding that these women had not even begun tasting wine when this joyful group was accused of being too loud. If you are on the road for a quiet wine tasting then go for a private tasting or drink at home!
8
Yes, in this case commenters please read the ample coverage from many sides of the situation. It was one older white lady complaining before any wine had been served. The group had explained their numbers and conversation style well in advance to the train, and had requested appropriate seating. The train did not choose to do the obvious thing and move this difficult older white patron to another car, preferably surrounded by Her type of peoples. Anybody in serving situation would have done the obvious.
I often wonder: how many large wine tasting groups or bachelorette parties head home with bottles of wine after their tasting expeditions? But then I remind myself, everyone is going to enjoy wine at their own pace. Kudos to not driving while tasting in excess.
Free app idea for all those kids in San Francisco heading out wine tasting in Napa, whether in a book club or not: maybe it's time to build a new app for those brides-to-be: a "wine registry", where friends & family have a chance to order the wines you love on your tasting trip.
Free app idea for all those kids in San Francisco heading out wine tasting in Napa, whether in a book club or not: maybe it's time to build a new app for those brides-to-be: a "wine registry", where friends & family have a chance to order the wines you love on your tasting trip.
2
Commentators, let's be clear - the Napa Valley Wine Train has ALWAYS been known as a loud party train, not a place to enjoy your glass in quiet contemplation - hence the 'once a month' that belligerent and intoxicated passengers are booted from the train. When you sign up for the train, you're not expecting a quiet ride. For these women to have been kicked off when laughing and having a good time because just one passenger complained was clearly a case of discrimination.
17
I beg to differ. I've ridden the Wine Train twice and both times it was presented as a fine-dining experience in a quiet, old-fashioned "parlor car" setting on a very slow-moving train. The train is nothing like a booze cruise or liquor limo, nor is it marketed that way. And with railroad dining cars being fairly intimate, restricted spaces, one would expect to keep a certain amount of decorum.
The book club was asked THREE TIMES to keep the noise down (not noted in this article but widely reported elsewhere), and shouldn't have been surprised to be finally shown the door.
The book club was asked THREE TIMES to keep the noise down (not noted in this article but widely reported elsewhere), and shouldn't have been surprised to be finally shown the door.
5
Maybe everybody in California knows that. If you're visiting from Boston you don't know that. I don't see "expect a lot of noise because this is a loud party train" anywhere in their online advertising.
Thank you!
Whatever happened to manners? If you want to be boisterous book a private room at a restaurant or something or host a party in your home. If you're in a public place, behave in a way that doesn't negatively impact anyone else.
47
Being from Napa and someone who serves the hospitality industry there, I was so sad to read the article about the wine train and accusations of racism. The people who run the train could not be nicer people and as a rule Napans are very tolerant and kind and take great pride In being so.
In recent years, we have watched tourism change from people who come to relax and enjoy fine food and wine and who also appreciate our stellar scenery to people who come to party and get drunk and to take selfies at famous wineries. They get intoxicated, make a spectacle, make a mess of our towns and roads and drive drunk and demonstrate very little regard for other tourists, let alone locals and those serving them at the wineries and restaurants. Napa Valley is struggling to find ways to return to its tourism roots and to be free of its new reputation as the party capital for millenials. We have all grown a bit thin skinned from the current barrage of rude and unruly tourists and skin color has nothing to do with it. Lack of manners and careless disregard for others is the real issue.
In recent years, we have watched tourism change from people who come to relax and enjoy fine food and wine and who also appreciate our stellar scenery to people who come to party and get drunk and to take selfies at famous wineries. They get intoxicated, make a spectacle, make a mess of our towns and roads and drive drunk and demonstrate very little regard for other tourists, let alone locals and those serving them at the wineries and restaurants. Napa Valley is struggling to find ways to return to its tourism roots and to be free of its new reputation as the party capital for millenials. We have all grown a bit thin skinned from the current barrage of rude and unruly tourists and skin color has nothing to do with it. Lack of manners and careless disregard for others is the real issue.
70
I've stopped going to Napa. The last straw was attending a release party at a very small winery. Their tasting room was a couple of temporary folding tables set up in the barrel room. The wines we were tasting were in most cases were only made in one and two barrel quantities, and they were great wines. Not that anyone there knew or cared.
It was a public release party, and the people that showed up treated it like their local bar. Rather than take their pour outside they jambed the tiny space, making it impossible to get to get to the table serving a wine you might be interested in actually buying.
The upside, if there is one, is that wine sales are up, because people now see wine as something you can serve, and drink, at a party without "making a statement". Credit microbreweries for reaching across from the other side of the "snob divide" as well.
Some wineries have a separate tasting room for their wine club members. So in addition to getting emails on upcoming releases and discounts on limited production, members only, wines, you get to taste in a quieter atmosphere.
It was a public release party, and the people that showed up treated it like their local bar. Rather than take their pour outside they jambed the tiny space, making it impossible to get to get to the table serving a wine you might be interested in actually buying.
The upside, if there is one, is that wine sales are up, because people now see wine as something you can serve, and drink, at a party without "making a statement". Credit microbreweries for reaching across from the other side of the "snob divide" as well.
Some wineries have a separate tasting room for their wine club members. So in addition to getting emails on upcoming releases and discounts on limited production, members only, wines, you get to taste in a quieter atmosphere.
2
As someone who lives very near a National Park, I must say, welcome to the downside of tourists and tourism. People do not behave well on their travels and quite often do not understand why it might be a problem.
1
When the story broke of the 11 women being booted from the train, the impression was that this was a first and their removal was suspected of being racially motivated. Now, a month later, we learn that this happens "About once a month...". That's a long time to wait for the full story.
33
No, the fact that people are asked to leave about once a month was reported almost immediately.
1
Maybe it would be possible to have two kinds of tours: "tasting" tours for those who want decorum and "(some clever euphemism for roaring drunk)" tours for others. By the way, the article doesn't say whether the train stops when people are "booted" off.
12
People out of control at an all you can drink party? Brought to you by every culture since 4000 BC.
18
it is not an all-you-can drink party
1
Related, see the NYT article on loud restaurants. We are a loud world. Some see wine tasting as a party rather than an art. At least I can walk out of loud restaurants, on the train you're trapped.
26
I wanted to take some English friends to taste wine on Long Island's North Fork last month. What an awful experience. It seemed no one was there to "taste" the wine - in fact, the winery was pushing gallons of its homemade Sangria (how can you "taste" the wine in that?) to the bridal parties and groups of hot 20-and 30-somethings that clearly came for a party. I had hoped my friends and I could converse with the staff about the grapes, the growing conditions, and sit and experience the "tasting" of wine. It seemed to me that "wine tasting" on Long Island has nothing to do with wine or tasting and is just another excuse for the Nassau/Manhattan crowd to pound alcohol. (that said, my friends who do appreciate wine bought a few bottles which we enjoyed at home and thought it was quite good).
28
There are many wineries on the North Fork that do not accommodate limos or large parties. They offer that intimate tasting experience you were looking for. McCall, Old Field, One Woman, Croteaux, Southold Farm + Cellar, Shinn, just to name a few. They are making very nice wines (with lower alcohol content than the bigger CA wines due to cooler weather, varietals). Recommend giving the area another visit..
2
Working in the wine trade, the problem is a consequence of tasting without spitting at "wine tasting" events/functions. In my experience, participants at public wine tasting events rush from table to table consuming as much wine as they can at each table. They have paid their money and they are going to get their money's worth! Even though only a small taste of each wine is poured, after 30 or 40 "tastes" in a fairly short period of time many are invariably intoxicated. You have to spit or do with less wine!
17
I work in the industry as well, and have been to a number of trade events.
There are always two kinds of guests. The ones that are there to sample the wines, make notes, and order sales (from a bottle to a container); and invariably, the people who come in only to drink.
Some of them are bold enough to tell you 'am only here for the food and drink'
Am sorry but a train ride through Napa with free wine, is not an event for our industry. It's not for the purchasers.
It's a tourist trip thorough a pretty place, with unlimited wine.
There are always two kinds of guests. The ones that are there to sample the wines, make notes, and order sales (from a bottle to a container); and invariably, the people who come in only to drink.
Some of them are bold enough to tell you 'am only here for the food and drink'
Am sorry but a train ride through Napa with free wine, is not an event for our industry. It's not for the purchasers.
It's a tourist trip thorough a pretty place, with unlimited wine.
8
It's true. Most non-oenophiles, myself included, aren't looking for a tasting experience that includes spitting. What we're looking for may not even meet your definition of a tasting experience. If too many of us are showing up at your events, you may need to revise your marketing so we'll know up front that we're not the kind of patron you're looking for or - the other side of the coin - that yours isn't the kind of event we're looking for.
Although the wine train is an excellent tourist experience, wineries in Napa, unless the train stops at their tasting/sales pavilion, are not enamored with it, as it is thought to be for neophytes. In the long run, it is all good for the industry that has grown beyond just inflation for the last 50 yrs. since Robert Mondavi staked his claim as the #1 marketer and cheerleader for the Napa Valley.
1
I have noticed in my 62 years that different cultures have different comfort levels with what other cultures would consider "loud" voices or conversation. I live on Crete, currently, and at times I will overhear to men talking and read it as confrontation, only to realize that they are simply being exuberant.
That said, as a sophisticated person I find it annoying when a obvious business group at a table in a fine dining restaurant is obviously hammered and overly loud. It can detract from the subtlety of the experience. I am not paying $75 a plate + wine to hear screaming infants or adults for that matter.
I was born and raised in Napa. When I went away to college in the 70's, no one heard of Napa (except the mental intuition). Wine was not big. Most people had a couple of highballs with dinner - and considered wine "for winos" - even in Napa.
The only trains ferried plums and other produce grown in the (then) predominant orchards in The Valley.
I have never ridden the wine train, so I don't know how I would feel about a group of hammered people screaming and laughing.
I don't believe that there was racism involved, though. Maybe there needs to be a trial so a jury can sort that issue out.
As a trial lawyer for 35+ years before I retired, my money would be on the defense.
That said, as a sophisticated person I find it annoying when a obvious business group at a table in a fine dining restaurant is obviously hammered and overly loud. It can detract from the subtlety of the experience. I am not paying $75 a plate + wine to hear screaming infants or adults for that matter.
I was born and raised in Napa. When I went away to college in the 70's, no one heard of Napa (except the mental intuition). Wine was not big. Most people had a couple of highballs with dinner - and considered wine "for winos" - even in Napa.
The only trains ferried plums and other produce grown in the (then) predominant orchards in The Valley.
I have never ridden the wine train, so I don't know how I would feel about a group of hammered people screaming and laughing.
I don't believe that there was racism involved, though. Maybe there needs to be a trial so a jury can sort that issue out.
As a trial lawyer for 35+ years before I retired, my money would be on the defense.
25
The train is the only thing that should be chugging on a wine tasting trip.
17
As far as I'm concerned, the operator of the tour should be able to decide what constitutes overly loud. If I was asked to speak quieter, I'd certainly acquiesce. It's concerning that an entire group would be unable to follow instruction from a train crew. Passengers need to be able to follow direction in case of safety issues on a train. If they're unable to control their behavior, I shudder to think what would have happened in an emergency. If this had been an airplane, this wouldn't even be a discussion.
35
Maybe there should a a quiet car on the wine train, like Amtrak. I can understand that folks want to have a fun time, but some folks are just louder than others - whether its in the office or a public space - and it is hard to enjoy yourself with your own party if another group is so loud its distracting. Sounds can also reverberate in closed spaces, and some folks are more sensitive to loud voices.
71
Can't we just have a quiet car? Or a "loud" car? The solution seems easy to me. You'll find me in the quiet car(s).
83
A ride in Amtrak Accela quiet car, is a night mare.
For some reason, there are self appointed passengers, who go from row to row susshing people. They get in your face and very loudly 'sh' you until you get quiet, then they tell the Conductor, who lectures you publicly about the rules. Once you're totally humiliated, they whisper to the person sitting next to them, about you the whole trip long. At the end you're super sorry, you sat in that car. Or that you took the train at all.
For some reason, there are self appointed passengers, who go from row to row susshing people. They get in your face and very loudly 'sh' you until you get quiet, then they tell the Conductor, who lectures you publicly about the rules. Once you're totally humiliated, they whisper to the person sitting next to them, about you the whole trip long. At the end you're super sorry, you sat in that car. Or that you took the train at all.
1
Why should wine drinking groups be quiet while laughter and noise is acceptable for spirits and beer drinkers? Sounds like discrimination to me. When a group of persons is having a fine time, it's a good thing when laughter ensues.
20
Because wine is different than "most" beers and spirits, the latter seemingly designed these days to be made for outlandish partying. Wine is a gourmet food steeped in culture. To show it disrespect with rowdy and boisterous behavior (not to be called a "fine" time), ignores traditions that date back to the Phoenicians some 3,000 years ago and slaps the faces of the hard working and judicious wine makers who till soil and vinify specially selected grapes. Laughter doesn't have to be loud and disturbing to others. Tasteful merriment, as Bacchus would say, is a better way to show that you are having a good time.
5
The beer and spirits distinction was stupid. But a drunk is a drunk, doesn't matter how you got there.
9
It simply depends on whether the majority of patrons are viewing the ride as a sophisticated, gourmet experience with fine food, real silver, a white tablecloth and expensive wine or something else more akin to Octoberfest.
There is nothing wrong with "discrimination" as long as it is not based on gender, ethnicity, sexual orientation, race, religion or national origin. Being drunk and disorderly is not a protected class.
There is nothing wrong with "discrimination" as long as it is not based on gender, ethnicity, sexual orientation, race, religion or national origin. Being drunk and disorderly is not a protected class.
16
Those ladies have no objective idea how loud they are, and are very quick to pull the race card, just like Danielle Willis. I have had the misfortune of being in a nice restaraunt, when a loud party comes in, and kills the mood. Perhaps if cameras with audio were on the train, the truth could have been determined.
72
I find it interesting that you are willing and ready to say these women are quick to call the race card! Also to suggest they would have no objective idea of how loud they are... doubtful in a group of 11 they would all be consuming at the same rate.
Do you even have information about what occurred other than this very 'white washed' article? #laughingwhileblack @calisarenee
I read the recounted stories by other passengers. I also saw the postings by other passengers who took photos with the ladies. One of the group was an elderly woman with a cane who was dishonorably put off the train. Why? Because one woman complained.... as many wine businesses have commented on her… she should have been moved to a more suitable car.
This article completely avoids the issues of race by setting up the story with how other passengers are removed from the train and attempting to make the main point about loudness. Have you checked the promotional videos of the train company that show lots of white patrons being loud and having a raucous time?
Ashley, shame on you for attempting to dilute the racial element of this event with this lightweight approach to such an important topic!
This was a group of well educated, classy women by all accounts of the embarrassed friends they made on the wine train. It is an important cleanse to read your remarks because all of these ideas must be brought to light, not silenced and kept in darkness just lurking to lunge at opportunities like this.
Do you even have information about what occurred other than this very 'white washed' article? #laughingwhileblack @calisarenee
I read the recounted stories by other passengers. I also saw the postings by other passengers who took photos with the ladies. One of the group was an elderly woman with a cane who was dishonorably put off the train. Why? Because one woman complained.... as many wine businesses have commented on her… she should have been moved to a more suitable car.
This article completely avoids the issues of race by setting up the story with how other passengers are removed from the train and attempting to make the main point about loudness. Have you checked the promotional videos of the train company that show lots of white patrons being loud and having a raucous time?
Ashley, shame on you for attempting to dilute the racial element of this event with this lightweight approach to such an important topic!
This was a group of well educated, classy women by all accounts of the embarrassed friends they made on the wine train. It is an important cleanse to read your remarks because all of these ideas must be brought to light, not silenced and kept in darkness just lurking to lunge at opportunities like this.
11
Indeed surveillance cameras with audio should be required on these trains as well as a poster explaining acceptable behavior