The assumption seems to be that high-poverty neighborhoods will always be poor, so the only solution is to move (the mostly minority) residents out of them and hope the well-off whites asked to host the low-income housing developments don't move away. But if poverty, not segregation, is the root cause of the myriad social ills that plague these neighborhoods, why have we given up on fighting poverty? Could it be because too many policy makers believe that poor African-Americans are incapable of adopting the values, work ethic, study habits, and other traits that make a stable middle-class life possible, and that programs like universal pre-kindergarten, educational affirmative action, job training, free community college, drug treatment, and others are therefore a waste of time and money?
5
Friedman’s discussion of the impacts of globalization on nation states and the challenges they face aligns well with this piece on the prevalence of neighborhood segregation and poverty in the U.S. Both point to the problem of geographies of “order and disorder.” Just as Syrian migrants want to escape war and violence, many inner-city residents in the U.S. would like to move to better neighborhoods. Instead of walls, immigration policies, and vast distances keeping inner-city residents from moving to the suburbs, its exclusionary zoning ordinances, discriminatory lending practices, and overt racism that have prevented their integration into neighborhoods where there are opportunities to achieve their dreams.
On the global level, Friedman points out the solutions are simple, but hard to implement. The options are to isolate the world of disorder or to occupy these regions and engage in messy and long process of building democratic nations. In inner cities, we have tried over-policing while at the same time under investing in neighborhood infrastructure, so maybe now it’s time to admit that unless we want to continue the cycle of community violence that has led to mass incarceration and the shooting of ordinary citizens, children and our police, it’s time to invest in the community building necessary to create more neighborhoods of “order.” This may not be politically or economically acceptable, but it’s morally imperative for building a more just and democratic nation.
On the global level, Friedman points out the solutions are simple, but hard to implement. The options are to isolate the world of disorder or to occupy these regions and engage in messy and long process of building democratic nations. In inner cities, we have tried over-policing while at the same time under investing in neighborhood infrastructure, so maybe now it’s time to admit that unless we want to continue the cycle of community violence that has led to mass incarceration and the shooting of ordinary citizens, children and our police, it’s time to invest in the community building necessary to create more neighborhoods of “order.” This may not be politically or economically acceptable, but it’s morally imperative for building a more just and democratic nation.
1
Unfortunately, it's not as simple as integrated neighborhoods = better educational and social outcomes for kids. Generations of poor people in the 19th and early 20th centuries moved up and out from poverty, despite economic segregation. Today there are pathologies associated with poverty that no amount of integration, be it economic or racial, will resolve. Lack of family structure, lack of respect for education and the work ethic, and substance abuse are holding back many, many of the poor (of all races) today.
Admittedly, changes in the economy and persistent racism play a part. But equations devised by economists or sociologists will not solve the problem of persistent, generational poverty.
Admittedly, changes in the economy and persistent racism play a part. But equations devised by economists or sociologists will not solve the problem of persistent, generational poverty.
10
It would seem the solution is quite simple: Even more government jobs--with typical taxpayer-supported pay, perks, pensions, and benefits--specifically designed for minorities. Anything else is just foolishness.
It took Italian and Irish immigrants, for example, one generation to get out of their ghettos. In today's world, given the "extreme condition" of too many families in minority neighborhoods, this is just not possible without the government buying high-end houses in places like Marin County or Napa County, for example, and just moving them in.
Happy thought--won't happen, though, too many Pelosi progressives in those neighborhoods.
It took Italian and Irish immigrants, for example, one generation to get out of their ghettos. In today's world, given the "extreme condition" of too many families in minority neighborhoods, this is just not possible without the government buying high-end houses in places like Marin County or Napa County, for example, and just moving them in.
Happy thought--won't happen, though, too many Pelosi progressives in those neighborhoods.
2
There is alogical inconsistency in this otherwise informative article. It points out that children living in communities with concentrated poverty, who go to school with other children from that community, do better academically when moved to communities with higher incomes. Evidently, being surrounded by children from disadvantaged cultures somehow drags down the performance of a given child. But if this is true, and placing such children in "better" neighborhood schools is good for that child, then what is the effect on other children? Would it not, have a negative effect on the kids from the "better" neighborhood? Cultural influence is a 2 way street.
Articles such as this are invariably written by someone from outside who coolly evaluates the behavior of others, suggesting racism. There probably is some of that. I would like to see interviews (perhaps necessarily anonymous) with people in a white neighborhood, and let them explain why they moved out as the level of minorities increased. I think we would learn there is a combination of simple racism, along with a clearly logical, and correct assumption that by leaving and going to another "better" neighborhood school system that their children will benefit from that transition as well. And let’s hear feedback from children who stayed in their schools as the ethnic composition changed and let them tell us how it affected them. Their experience is something we should learn about. I will bet there were plusses and minuses.
Articles such as this are invariably written by someone from outside who coolly evaluates the behavior of others, suggesting racism. There probably is some of that. I would like to see interviews (perhaps necessarily anonymous) with people in a white neighborhood, and let them explain why they moved out as the level of minorities increased. I think we would learn there is a combination of simple racism, along with a clearly logical, and correct assumption that by leaving and going to another "better" neighborhood school system that their children will benefit from that transition as well. And let’s hear feedback from children who stayed in their schools as the ethnic composition changed and let them tell us how it affected them. Their experience is something we should learn about. I will bet there were plusses and minuses.
6
The school percent of blacks being higher than the general population is not an accident. Why do you gloss over the impact that high birth rates to younger mothers has on these population changes? And with it, poverty and, not black flight, no, but flight of anyone who doesn't want to live near poverty... which in this case happened to be mostly whites.
2
Singapore is a benevolent dictatorship. Virtually everyone can buy a condominium in a public housing unit with a 99 year lease funded by payroll deductions and government grants from the housing development authority (HBD). There are different sized units in "housing estates. There is also a quota system to prevent the formation of ethnic segregation. Therefore, the 3 main ethnic groups; Chinese, Malay,and Indian have quotas in the public housing units based on their percentages of the population in Singapore.
Such an arrangement would be ruled unconstitutional in the US. However, before these quotas were implemented, Singapore had real ethnic conflict. The Singapore Chinese were the dominant group in size and GDP and were often resented by the Malays and Indians. The Malays were considered the indigenous population. Before Singapore split from Malaysia, there was widespread, often bloody, ethnic conflict, frequently engineered by the leaders of the different ethnic communities. That is no longer the case.
Such an arrangement would be ruled unconstitutional in the US. However, before these quotas were implemented, Singapore had real ethnic conflict. The Singapore Chinese were the dominant group in size and GDP and were often resented by the Malays and Indians. The Malays were considered the indigenous population. Before Singapore split from Malaysia, there was widespread, often bloody, ethnic conflict, frequently engineered by the leaders of the different ethnic communities. That is no longer the case.
3
Somebody could write a book thicker than "War & Peace" featuring the stories of citizens who witnessed their once safe and clean neighborhood fall into decline. It almost always starts with people moving in who are on some form of public assistance. Our family story is the infamous Curries Woods in Jersey City. It started out as a home for low-income seniors, but as usually happens, morphed into a crime & drug infested, all-ages housing project that was so bad even ABC's Nightline did a report on it. I'm sure the former citizens of Ferguson and Baltimore could add whole chapters to such a book. Section 8 housing ruins every area it is allowed to flourish, almost without fail. It lifts up no group of people, but it does force law abiding people to flee (once crime inevitably rises and property values fall). I wonder if the "scholars" in this article would be so enthusiastic about the proposed HUD mandates if it meant a low-income housing project would be built across the street from THEIR home. I think we all know the answer to that.
11
The article says: “First, the federal and state governments must begin to control suburban development,”
What?
Why not take the Chinese approach?
- Require permission to a city or suburb.
- Force people with bayonets out of their homes to camps the Federal Government approves.
What?
Why not take the Chinese approach?
- Require permission to a city or suburb.
- Force people with bayonets out of their homes to camps the Federal Government approves.
1
In a small town, there is only one neighborhood, and only a half dozen people have houses that sell for over $100,000. What most people like is quiet, no people that live nearby that have drinking problems, troubled teenagers, criminal activity, other than that most don't discriminate here as over 30% of the people in our town of 2000 are either Laotians or Hispanics. People will call the police here if there is loud fighting, drunkenness, or domestic violence. I think because most women my age and I am 67, went back to school and work over 40 years ago, then there was a rampant increase in divorce, and then the single motherhood syndrome which has become the norm even here, children are lonely, troubled, and raising themselves, which isn't the best way to grow up in any neighborhood. Some of these kids stay out of trouble but others when left alone, even so called good white neighbors have boys who shoot blackbirds out of your trees, then you need to find out it is against the law to shoot a gun in town, then the police go talk to the father, and it stops. I believe that most people would prefer to live far away from anyone, as human nature is not given to common sense, good behavior!
This article leads the reader to an interesting parallel to rich countries bringing in poor refugees from the middle east. What is the tipping point towards the number of poor entering the rich European countries? What is the tipping point of the number of poor refugees entering the poorer countries of the middle east? Will Jordan accept refugees from Syria when they won't take in any Palestinians? etc.
Edsall's article is a real revelation to me. I have to admit that for quite awhile I've thought of this as a straightforward moral issue: Christ told us to be "neighbors" to people unlike ourselves, so the value of our real estate cannot be a decisive factor. We must be willing to lose value if that is what's needed to be "neighbors."
But Edsall brings up another whole side of the matter: that given what human beings actually are, as opposed to what they would ideally be, we cannot expect people to be "neighbors" if the impoverished or minority population of their neighborhoods goes above a "tipping point." This doesn't force me to change my basic moral analysis, but it forces me to recognize just how difficult the progress of racial justice will be. I was heartened by the statement by William Frey at the end that gives hope things are gradually getting better.
But Edsall brings up another whole side of the matter: that given what human beings actually are, as opposed to what they would ideally be, we cannot expect people to be "neighbors" if the impoverished or minority population of their neighborhoods goes above a "tipping point." This doesn't force me to change my basic moral analysis, but it forces me to recognize just how difficult the progress of racial justice will be. I was heartened by the statement by William Frey at the end that gives hope things are gradually getting better.
1
Fascinating mathematical models! It does sound like agents who want to force integration are pushing against human nature and statistics.
It doesn't seem like dystopia to me. Cupertino, my former residence, and the HQ city for Apple Computer is nearly all Asian. This happened over a fifteen year period. They heard about the schools, moved in, the schools improved further, more Asians moved in. Then there were Chinese supermarkets, etc. More Asians moved in. So what is the problem?
In Fremont, we have the largest population of Afghani immigrants in the U.S. I presume they find comfort there.
At the end of the day, blacks, Asians, East Indians, Afghani's etc. create the neighborhood they populate. If the black neighborhood has a lot of crime and the Asian neighborhood has awesome schools, whose fault is that?
It doesn't seem like dystopia to me. Cupertino, my former residence, and the HQ city for Apple Computer is nearly all Asian. This happened over a fifteen year period. They heard about the schools, moved in, the schools improved further, more Asians moved in. Then there were Chinese supermarkets, etc. More Asians moved in. So what is the problem?
In Fremont, we have the largest population of Afghani immigrants in the U.S. I presume they find comfort there.
At the end of the day, blacks, Asians, East Indians, Afghani's etc. create the neighborhood they populate. If the black neighborhood has a lot of crime and the Asian neighborhood has awesome schools, whose fault is that?
12
The very kindest thing I can say about Paul A. Jargowsky's proposed solution is that he wants to employ fascism to control racism. Although, like quite a few other correspondents to this section, I do not agree that racism is at the root of the problem. Crime is.
In the 1960's, my uncle ran a bowling alley in Chicago. He refused to move as his neighborhood changed from majority white to majority black, until the third time he was robbed at gunpoint.
More recently, when my son was very young and I was weighing our educational options, here in NYC, I had a conversation with an accomplished man who was sending both his sons to private school. I asked him why, and settled in for a long conversation about small class rooms, academic achievement, social and emotional support, university acceptances, etc.
The totality of his answer: I don't want my boys getting beaten up.
In the 1960's, my uncle ran a bowling alley in Chicago. He refused to move as his neighborhood changed from majority white to majority black, until the third time he was robbed at gunpoint.
More recently, when my son was very young and I was weighing our educational options, here in NYC, I had a conversation with an accomplished man who was sending both his sons to private school. I asked him why, and settled in for a long conversation about small class rooms, academic achievement, social and emotional support, university acceptances, etc.
The totality of his answer: I don't want my boys getting beaten up.
8
Oh, this is precious. My white neighbors and I bucked the studies & statistics in Ferguson for many years, choosing to live in a community that was nearly 70% black and lower income. And yet the Times and other media still painted us as racists. You can't win.
6
I hate to be a bearer of bad news, but read this having been impressed - tragically - by the Comments added to a NYTimes 15 AUG article "Analysis Finds Higher Expulsion Rates for Black Students" where readers with ample K-12 teaching experience repeatedly report distinctly different rates of disruptive behaviors on the part of students depending on - the word that hurts - race. Of course all are aware that economics, parenting, expectations, etc. all affect the children, but time and again race was unfortunately viewed as a decisive factor in student behaviors.
5
It requires community and political commitment. Mr. Edsall didn't mention Cleveland Heights and Shaker Heights, OH, for example, where I grew up and raised my children. Beginning in the 1950's, the Ludlow Community Association in Shaker Heights (a very affluent suburb of Cleveland) began intentional and thoughtful integration. Other areas of Shaker Heights and Cleveland Heights followed. These eclectic, diverse suburbs continue to thrive some 60 years later. Not without challenges, but they are testimony to what is possible if we have the will to integrate and sustain diversity.
1
Tough living in a free country, isn't it? The professors and sociologists can't "require" people to build what they don't want to build, and live where they don't want to live.
28
This remark implies that Longue has no solutions to social problems, because he believes only in the self which can't be forced to help others. Which, apparently, makes him proud. At least he has a theory that makes him feel good.
1
We are dancing around the real issue. I lived in a highly integrated development, in a suburb outside Houston. Along with South Asians and Asians, there is a proportional representation of African Americans. The local high school performs at a high level, the sports teams are great and there's very little crime. At the clubhouse, on a Friday night, there's a great mix of different cultures, having dinner, drinks and socializing. The African Americans are mostly current and former professional athletes, physicians, attorneys and business men. There's even an executive of a local rap label. Most all are traditional families, with two parents in the home.
Guess what the real problem is?
Guess what the real problem is?
13
Your black neighbor's kids? Latinos? Poor people?
I give up. Tell me :)
It is sad that we are dealing with this in the 21st century, but it is a reality, and no one seems to have real answers. Well meaning types say the answer is in 'affordable housing', but what that leaves out is what kind and where. People hear that term, and assume it means dense pattern housing where everyone in them is below a certain level economically, so what you end up with is public housing full of the very poor, with the ills that have some to be associated with that. When NYC originally built public housing after WWII, because of a shortage of housing,they had middle and working class people as well as the very poor; by the 1960's, public housing set absolute limits on income, and they became the abode of the very poor, often on welfare, and it helped destroy them. Scattersite housing works, where a certain percentage of new housing built has to be affordable/low income, but the problem is that the fear of 'affordable housing" means it doesn't happen. The real question is fear and how do you manage that, how do you convince people living in a suburban area that is safe, that it won't become unsafe, that they won't have to lock everything up or worry about other ills like drugs? Part of the problem is that people see moving the poor to better areas as the only solution, but do you also assume that if you do that, that suddenly those kids who have been fouled up, the young single mothers with multiple kids, will suddenly overcome those things?
A long-winded way of saying that when blacks move in, whites move out, talking their tax base with them. Is this flight racist? Of course not. People will not live among people who don't share their values, and too many blacks just don't behave properly. So in 50 years, the demographics will be the same.
29
Reading the comments to this article is quite fascinating. Nearly every person commenting wants to prove that they aren’t racist. I see this a lot when race in brought up. It’s really incredible how someone can take an article about what one race is going through and say that that’s not an issue. As if they are living the life that the people in these neighborhoods live. Everyone loves to pretend that race isn’t an issue in a lot of things. Why focus on race? Why must you bring it up at all? Well, it is an issue, and as much as you “aren’t a part of it” it will plague us as long as we try to ignore it.
2
We're trying to be nice. When 35-40% of homicides, and 85-90% of all gun violence, are committed by a very specific demographic, and no one wants to say anything offensive, you learn to ignore things.
That's probably not what you meant.
That's probably not what you meant.
8
Most people are saying that it is class and culture. If the class and culture of an area remains the same, then no one much cares about how their neighbors look. But the tipping point is culture - see that change, especially if it brings the crime which is closely intertwined with deep poverty, and you will see a tipping point. People will leave. Race is part of it, when race and culture intersects, but not by itself. That isn't necessarily a great moral high ground - hey I'm not racist, I'm classist - but it also means that racism is often not the primary factor in how neighborhoods turn over. One thing that is true, however, is that we conflate race and class. And that IS racism.
The problem is that on one hand all of the liberals and progressives demand that we celebrate the differences of various races, cultures, and sexual orientation. Then, on the other hand, these self-same folks decry as racist anything that is not celebratory of these differences.
I'm fine with the fact that human being are all inherently racist in that we all notice racial differences and generally prefer to be around people who look and act like we do and believe what we do in broad terms.
Children don't notice face. The older you get, the more you so. I can't imagine why this is.
I'm fine with the fact that human being are all inherently racist in that we all notice racial differences and generally prefer to be around people who look and act like we do and believe what we do in broad terms.
Children don't notice face. The older you get, the more you so. I can't imagine why this is.
3
Middle class integrated neighborhoods work because everyone has "earned" his way into them. By paying to live there, residents demonstrate an ability to work and a commitment to safety, decent schools, etc. These are shared values regardless of, and more important than, race.
Being bussed in is an entirely different matter. There is no similar test of values. Too many in poor neighborhoods cannot be counted on to suddenly eschew crime and favor education. Their backgrounds and former neighborhoods come with them, unfortunately, not having been left behind the way they would in a normal move.
Being bussed in is an entirely different matter. There is no similar test of values. Too many in poor neighborhoods cannot be counted on to suddenly eschew crime and favor education. Their backgrounds and former neighborhoods come with them, unfortunately, not having been left behind the way they would in a normal move.
17
Ask yourself - do you want to have an armed policeman when you shop for groceries at your neighborhood store? This is what it boils down to.
22
In America, when you are talking about taxes -- you are also talking about race. When you are discussing crime -- you are discussing race, when you are trying to fix education -- you are addressing race. What HAS changed, which Frey tries to rake over with a libertarian argument (look how the market is "working") is that increasingly Whites are beginning to be "stuck" : lack of wages which would allow them to move away. That certainly explains the Trump phenomenon, the Tea Party rise, the reverse racism claims. The Whites are for the first time "stuck" with minorities and are flipping out.
6
In the 1970's my family lived in an "all-white" suburb of Detroit. I worked at an outfit that, altho prospering, kept its employment below 100 so as to not have to justify its practice of employing only whites.
I am white. My wife, a swarthy mix of Native American, European, African. The only such family in town, as far as I could tell. This was fine with most of our neighbors and most of my co-workers. But that minority who were not happy about us certainly made it not worth staying there. Never mind that we had the best-kept house for blocks around, our kids were famously well-behaved, good students (not just honor students, they were straight-A students).
We're long gone. The suburb, gone downhill. Successful kids raising their even-more-mixed families in uppercrustian neighborhoods in major cities. My wife and I live in an integrated Chicago neighborhood. Chicago is largely segregated, but there are a few integrated areas, which to us are the best places to live.
The bigotry of so many commenters is scary. And I am still at times taken to task for condemning my kids to lives of trouble because I married outside of my kind. Is this getting worse?
I am white. My wife, a swarthy mix of Native American, European, African. The only such family in town, as far as I could tell. This was fine with most of our neighbors and most of my co-workers. But that minority who were not happy about us certainly made it not worth staying there. Never mind that we had the best-kept house for blocks around, our kids were famously well-behaved, good students (not just honor students, they were straight-A students).
We're long gone. The suburb, gone downhill. Successful kids raising their even-more-mixed families in uppercrustian neighborhoods in major cities. My wife and I live in an integrated Chicago neighborhood. Chicago is largely segregated, but there are a few integrated areas, which to us are the best places to live.
The bigotry of so many commenters is scary. And I am still at times taken to task for condemning my kids to lives of trouble because I married outside of my kind. Is this getting worse?
4
As many people have pointed out moving poor people into middle class neighborhoods often doesn't work as intended. Instead of prosperous, thriving integrated neighborhoods you often get increased crime lower property values which eventually leads to white flight and resegregation.
If you look at the statistics it appears that some schools have achieved racial balance. But if you look in the cafeteria at lunch time you often see that the kids segregate themselves. If we really want to achieve a society where poor kids have the opportunity to assimilate into middle class American culture we have to start with improving the schools in poor neighborhoods. We need to replace the model of funding schools with local property taxes with one that truly gives all kids a chance.
If you look at the statistics it appears that some schools have achieved racial balance. But if you look in the cafeteria at lunch time you often see that the kids segregate themselves. If we really want to achieve a society where poor kids have the opportunity to assimilate into middle class American culture we have to start with improving the schools in poor neighborhoods. We need to replace the model of funding schools with local property taxes with one that truly gives all kids a chance.
5
“...to take significant actions to overcome historic patterns of segregation, achieve truly balanced and integrated living patterns, promote fair housing choice, and foster inclusive communities.” This phrase would make Pollyanna proud. Unfortunately, there are many of us who've lived near section 8 housing, who have endured the noise, trash and violence of low-income neighborhoods and want nothing to do with them or the people who make them what they are.
26
As someone whose children went to a school that was roughly 40% Black for about 8 years, (and just moved to a much more achieving school district with many Indians and a good amount of Chinese but comparatively fewer Black children) I can state that Edsall is totally out of touch with reality. The reason that black children (comparatively) do so poorly is that many of their parents do not spend enough time with their children or motivating their children. Without strong parental involvement, there is virtually nothing the school district can do.
For instance, the new black superintendent at my children's old school district commented one time that he had enrolled about 225 children in a high-end trade learning pre-program and that only about 8 children actually enrolled. Last year my then third-grade girl complained that the boys in her class were too noisy. (Don't have that problem in the new school district) Also, when my son was in the fourth grade, about 25% of the student's grade was to be earned by work on a poster. About 1/3 of the children didn't even turn in the poster, much less put in a good effort.
I would add that there were many very good teachers at my children's old school district. However, there was nothing they good do to overcome the unpreparedness of the children. And, yes a disproportionate number of unmotivated students were Black.
JD
For instance, the new black superintendent at my children's old school district commented one time that he had enrolled about 225 children in a high-end trade learning pre-program and that only about 8 children actually enrolled. Last year my then third-grade girl complained that the boys in her class were too noisy. (Don't have that problem in the new school district) Also, when my son was in the fourth grade, about 25% of the student's grade was to be earned by work on a poster. About 1/3 of the children didn't even turn in the poster, much less put in a good effort.
I would add that there were many very good teachers at my children's old school district. However, there was nothing they good do to overcome the unpreparedness of the children. And, yes a disproportionate number of unmotivated students were Black.
JD
21
I'm constantly in flight: In flight from commercialism, in flight from dead end jobs, in flight from invisibility in the new world of intersectionalism, in flight from drug dealers on my corner, in flight from growing fascism amongst my elders, in flight from plutocracy, and, admittedly, in flight from the cultural failures of poor urban black communities.
I don't know if I'll ever come down.
I don't know if I'll ever come down.
6
Based on firsthand experience, I appreciate the thoughtfulness of this piece and find it dead on. I live in an inner suburb of Detroit and have seen how complex this issue is. I am a liberal who has been confronted with the difficulties of theory in action, as my quiet working/middle class community became rapidly integrated. We feel nothing but sympathy for most of our newer neighbors, trying desperately to escape the violence and chaos less than a mile away, but the increase in crime, plummeting school performance, and precipitous drop in property values accompanying this change are all very real. We are near our "tipping" point, but that is not a number (we are around 50%), but rather how safe we feel. We have decided to stick it out for now and try to "be change we hope to see," but it's frustrating when people safely removed from these realities, spout simplistic ideologically based opinions/solutions (from the left and right). If there were easy answers this would have been fixed 50 years ago. At least the trend is in the right direction ... let's just hope it doesn't take another 50.
16
In our neighborhood in a mid-western city about half of the white families moved away in the 1970s and were replaced by middle-class black families. My parents still live there and it's still about 50/50 black and white although many houses have changed hands in the intervening years.
My elementary school was where the racial separation occurred. I was in classes with 50% black students while some other classes were entirely white with one or two black students, usually quiet girls. My classroom experience couldn't have been more different from the white classrooms and the outcomes were vastly different. My friends from the white classes, for the most part, went on to well-regarded colleges while many of the students in my class were the ones you read about years later in the newspaper. The main problem was that our teachers simply didn't teach. This is not an exaggeration, they did nothing but sit at their desks until it was time to go to recess or lunch.
I was once a visitor for a day in one of the white classrooms because I decided not to go on a field-trip to McDonald's. I was surprised to see the teacher actually teaching a lesson, the students actually using the materials from the list of supplies. I had always wondered why we had to buy all of that stuff for school that would not be touched all year.
My elementary school was where the racial separation occurred. I was in classes with 50% black students while some other classes were entirely white with one or two black students, usually quiet girls. My classroom experience couldn't have been more different from the white classrooms and the outcomes were vastly different. My friends from the white classes, for the most part, went on to well-regarded colleges while many of the students in my class were the ones you read about years later in the newspaper. The main problem was that our teachers simply didn't teach. This is not an exaggeration, they did nothing but sit at their desks until it was time to go to recess or lunch.
I was once a visitor for a day in one of the white classrooms because I decided not to go on a field-trip to McDonald's. I was surprised to see the teacher actually teaching a lesson, the students actually using the materials from the list of supplies. I had always wondered why we had to buy all of that stuff for school that would not be touched all year.
3
The phrase "affordable housing" continues to be a deception. Affordable housing is simply the relocation of problem people who have no stake in a home to neighborhoods where the original residents do have a financial interest in their home, neighborhood and schools. If the desire is really affordable housing then knock down a crummy house and rebuild a decent one. Keep the cancer in one spot instead of spreading it. As the article states, even Democrats know the truth and act on it even though they lie about it.
18
Two processes segregate neighborhoods: middle class flight triggered by the perception that the neighbohood is becoming dangerous, and gentrification which pays poorer residents to sell out and keeps poor people from moving in. These are both economic processes of segregation. Economic inequality and lack of economic opportunity is the problem. The solution is affirmative action on jobs and education. That is the government action that raised many from poverty to the middle class. It liberated a lot of talent that was stifled by lack of opportunity. Experience tells us the criteria should be economic, not racial or ethnic. Race or ethnicity associated with poverty will get more help than those that aren't.
Experience also tells us that the government has to push this. The private sector has been a disaster in job creation - there are fewer and fewer jobs that pay a living wage. Banks loaded students with debt and their lobbyists got laws passed to make student debt non-dischargeable.
Is affirmative action fair? People who think we are a meritocracy today may think not. But I can't count the number of colleagues who were the first in their family to go to college, or whose father was and led a middle class life thanks to the GI Bill. Or those whose parents worked their way up thanks to a good job, where they got training. We desperately need investment in our infrastructure and in our people. These are long term investments, the kind good government makes.
Experience also tells us that the government has to push this. The private sector has been a disaster in job creation - there are fewer and fewer jobs that pay a living wage. Banks loaded students with debt and their lobbyists got laws passed to make student debt non-dischargeable.
Is affirmative action fair? People who think we are a meritocracy today may think not. But I can't count the number of colleagues who were the first in their family to go to college, or whose father was and led a middle class life thanks to the GI Bill. Or those whose parents worked their way up thanks to a good job, where they got training. We desperately need investment in our infrastructure and in our people. These are long term investments, the kind good government makes.
24
Banks loaded students with debt? Were the students forced to borrow the money at gunpoint? Students who chose to go to schools which they couldn't afford have to take responsibility for their choices. If you just needed to go to that 60k private liberal arts school instead of the 15k in-state tuition state university why should should the rest of us pick up the tab.
10
Do you think bankers were forced to lend at gun point? Students have eager lenders regardless of their prospects because the credit law banks lobbied for will keep them on the hook for years at menial jobs just for daring to hope now that student loans can't be discharged in bankruptcy. Lenders who make bad loans don't take responsibility and don't pay a penalty. Is that OK with you? Do you believe young hopeful students "get it" when they sign on the dotted line?
1
Mr Stuart - Please recall that 30-40-50 years ago higher education was MUCH more affordable, costs directly to students MUCH lower, as higher education was considered without argument a necessary development of the nation's infrastructure, and was supported as such by all. This future-directed view no longer obtains in the US although, again, many other advanced industrial democracies yet maintain the wisdom of making higher education at minimal personal cost to all youth capable of such.
2
"every city and town in a metropolitan area should be required to ensure that the new housing built reflects the income distribution of the metropolitan area as a whole."
Required by whom?
Under what authority?
Required by whom?
Under what authority?
16
Think of it as "The Noah's Ark" principle. It's the right thing to do.
1
Harvard Professor Edward Banfield, not Karl Marx and not any politician, offered the most valid description of our neighborhoods and our class membership struggle in America over four decades ago in his prophetic texts, "The Unheavenly City" and "The Unheavenly City Revisited". Banfield carefully defined class membership, not in terms race or of income status, such as government statistical poverty levels, but in terms of orientation toward the future, or time preference.
In short, some people live in a future orientation while others live in a present orientation; moreover, those time orientations have nothing to do with race, religion, or other government measured demographics.
In short, some people live in a future orientation while others live in a present orientation; moreover, those time orientations have nothing to do with race, religion, or other government measured demographics.
3
Altho;ugh the % of whites in poor districts is much lower than that of blacks, the absolute numbers, I believe without doing any detailed research, are quite comparable due to the much larger white population. This may suggest that a less "racial" approach might work better provided that racial problems are not marginalized. I;d hope for some articles on this thjo;ught.
1
"these neighborhoods are harmful to the children who live in them"! Neighborhoods are not harmful, it's the people who live in the neighborhood, and more importantly, the people who don't, who effect children. Known fathers who live with their families make a real and lasting difference in the growth and maturation of their children. Just dropping a single, minority mother with 4 or 5 children into a middle class, mostly white neighborhood will not take the place of having a stable family to grow up in. The neighborhood doesn't produce a "fragile family structure". A lack of family structure produces poor neighborhoods. Until black America decides to do something to address this fundamental flaw in it's society and return to stable two parent nuclear families none of this is going to change.
19
The only surprise in this article is a pleasant one: that the "tipping point" has crept up slightly. Crime and poor schools are a real concern and the issues of poverty and culture that influence them must be addressed. But, make no mistake, a lot of white folks do not want to live beside black folks, even if they will tolerate them at work and public accommodations.
I have lived for many years on a pleasant street on a block of about a dozen homes. My community is integrated, but at first our block was all white. A neighbor sold to a black "Cosby family (the show, not the guy)," a doctor, ministers, straight-A students, the whole bit. The seller felt compelled to go around to all the neighbors apologizing for what she had done. Three more moved, two selling to black professionals. The rest of us enjoyed the improvement in the neighborhood. But the attitudes and behavior of those others cannot be ignored. They were living in a nice neighborhood with good schools, essentially no crime, and stable property values.
It's getting better. friends, but it's still pretty bad.
I have lived for many years on a pleasant street on a block of about a dozen homes. My community is integrated, but at first our block was all white. A neighbor sold to a black "Cosby family (the show, not the guy)," a doctor, ministers, straight-A students, the whole bit. The seller felt compelled to go around to all the neighbors apologizing for what she had done. Three more moved, two selling to black professionals. The rest of us enjoyed the improvement in the neighborhood. But the attitudes and behavior of those others cannot be ignored. They were living in a nice neighborhood with good schools, essentially no crime, and stable property values.
It's getting better. friends, but it's still pretty bad.
4
I am old enough to remember the busing debates that took place in the 60's. In particular I recall Hubert Humphrey talking about the busing issue. Mr. Humphrey said in so many words, " we do not need forced busing, all we need to do is make sure that the inner city and especially the southern rural schools were as good and modern as their white counterparts. If we could ensure that the poor had the same opportunity for a quality education in a modern environment there would be no need for busing." He could not legislate that type of program because it would have been seen as "separate but equal".
In a country as racist as the US was and still is it would have been the absolute best policy and we would not have to be dealing with all of the issues that busing, the absolute worse policy, of the civil rights movement has ever produced.
In a country as racist as the US was and still is it would have been the absolute best policy and we would not have to be dealing with all of the issues that busing, the absolute worse policy, of the civil rights movement has ever produced.
2
Sorry, but one big reason for the difference in schools is parents. They set the standard by making demands and ensuring their kids are ready to learn. The absence of that is what is found in poorly performing schools.
Sometimes it's not about race but behavior. Schools are not responsible for parenting and student readiness to learn.
Sometimes it's not about race but behavior. Schools are not responsible for parenting and student readiness to learn.
12
Thank you for educating me. I did not realize that the parents were to blame for the dirt floors and no electricity in the southern rural schools. I can now blame the parents for not remodeling the inner city schools and supplying them with the latest technology like an overhead projector. If only those parents would have sacrificed their weekends at the beach they could have used all their spare money to save their schools.
1
Math is great but it doesn't tell us why whites (and Hispanics and Asians) choose to leave neighborhoods as they become blacker. Is it an irrational prejudice or empirical experience with crime and quality of schooling (which depends mostly on the demographics of the students, not facilities, teacher quality, or curriculum)? And despite Schelling's theory predicting that "Similarly, an all-black neighborhood may be tipped into an all-white neighborhood," blacks generally don't leave gentrifying neighborhoods because they become too white--they leave because they become too expensive. In fact, the policies now proposed by the Obama administration to require white towns to become less white or lose federal funds wouldn't make any sense if they thought blacks objected to living in overwhelmingly white neighborhoods.
As for Jargowsky's proposals (that whites not be allowed to build new houses in Long Island and Westchester when their old neighborhoods in the Bronx and Brooklyn become dangerous, say; and that every new development be a mirror of the area's demographics), if implemented (under martial law?) they might bring about the result discussed in one of the linked papers:
"As the population became more and more racist, the agents of different races wouldn’t just be in separate neighborhoods in the same cities but in different cities altogether."
http://www.laits.utexas.edu/compeco/Sample_Papers/Coutinho/Racial_Prefer...
As for Jargowsky's proposals (that whites not be allowed to build new houses in Long Island and Westchester when their old neighborhoods in the Bronx and Brooklyn become dangerous, say; and that every new development be a mirror of the area's demographics), if implemented (under martial law?) they might bring about the result discussed in one of the linked papers:
"As the population became more and more racist, the agents of different races wouldn’t just be in separate neighborhoods in the same cities but in different cities altogether."
http://www.laits.utexas.edu/compeco/Sample_Papers/Coutinho/Racial_Prefer...
2
Many blacks in middle class neighborhoods in Chicago dislike section 8 housing coming into their area, as it destabilizes the place. I am hearing this from our African American manager and other workers in our business. More crime, more blight. I agree with SH below. Not only whites leave, but middle class blacks flee when a previously low crime area with good schools turns otherwise.
Inner city schools need more money and attention. I know some folks will hate this, but the answer is more charter (and parochial) schools. And yes, force parents/custodial parents to attend open houses and PTA. Without education, problems will worsen.
Inner city schools need more money and attention. I know some folks will hate this, but the answer is more charter (and parochial) schools. And yes, force parents/custodial parents to attend open houses and PTA. Without education, problems will worsen.
7
People who have worked hard to escape the "ghetto culture" are now going to be expected to have such people in their neighborhoods? This is grossly unfair. If someone can afford to live somewhere, that is different. But to have the government say that people who are on welfare who are black have preference in housing in certain neighborhoods is outrageous.
27
'lack of stable integrated communities'? Tom, you cannot see the forest for the trees. The real problem is lack of stable, intact families. I know, I know we get into a discussion of 'chicken/egg'. Those so called communities will never stabilize without stable, intact families. With 70% of black children being born out of wedlock, living in one parent families, nothing will change. These kids are doomed to poverty and failure. It has never been about bricks and mortar. Racial and ethic integration will never happen until the intact families problem is solved. Wise up.
23
Wrapping everything in a cloak of "racism" and defining it as the problem really distorts things. The greatest downside, in my view, other than that it is cannot be technically "solved", is that it diverts money to the wrong solutions.
What if people flee not from a race but from a family type (ex., one that is extremely dysfunctional where kids have no discipline or boundaries) or from a behavior (ex., poor school attendance, low graduation rates, etc.). The money spent on "integration" might better be spent on educating parents, etc., really hyper focusing on changing dysfunctional behavior.
Moreover, when everything is cloaked in "racism", people are denied their right to behave rationally, which is to flee when something undesirable (ex., crime) changes their neighborhood. To demand they stay is a fool's errand. Of course, people are going to leave if something negatively affects what they hold valuable.
What if people flee not from a race but from a family type (ex., one that is extremely dysfunctional where kids have no discipline or boundaries) or from a behavior (ex., poor school attendance, low graduation rates, etc.). The money spent on "integration" might better be spent on educating parents, etc., really hyper focusing on changing dysfunctional behavior.
Moreover, when everything is cloaked in "racism", people are denied their right to behave rationally, which is to flee when something undesirable (ex., crime) changes their neighborhood. To demand they stay is a fool's errand. Of course, people are going to leave if something negatively affects what they hold valuable.
1
'...the “tipping point,” the point at which whites begin to leave a residential locale en masse as African-Americans or other minorities move in...'
It is not as if White Flight occurs when an African American or Latino family with two working parents and two children doing well in school move into the neighborhood.
Middle class people do not want to live around poor people and that is true of middle class people of all races.
This is because anyone who has lived around poor people knows that the truth is that the vast majority are poor because of their bad choices in life, repeated over and over again, helped on this path by all the do-gooders who encourage a victim mentality and a sense of helplessness and entitlement.
It is not as if White Flight occurs when an African American or Latino family with two working parents and two children doing well in school move into the neighborhood.
Middle class people do not want to live around poor people and that is true of middle class people of all races.
This is because anyone who has lived around poor people knows that the truth is that the vast majority are poor because of their bad choices in life, repeated over and over again, helped on this path by all the do-gooders who encourage a victim mentality and a sense of helplessness and entitlement.
19
"It is not as if White Flight occurs when an African American or Latino family with two working parents and two children doing well in school move into the neighborhood."
Not true. White flight is an instant response for a minority of whites, and then it snowballs.
"Middle class people do not want to live around poor people and that is true of middle class people of all races."
Largely true. Class and racial prejudice are imbricated, but either can stand alone.
Not true. White flight is an instant response for a minority of whites, and then it snowballs.
"Middle class people do not want to live around poor people and that is true of middle class people of all races."
Largely true. Class and racial prejudice are imbricated, but either can stand alone.
3
Don't the people, themselves, need to improve their neighborhood and themselves? Is it possible that this is not a matter of race, but a matter of groups of much less able people gathering together, in poverty? Not every individual has the motivation or ability to help themselves, and their families, to move up. As well, there seems to be a culture attached to chronic poverty.
6
In an attempt to address the influx of poor people fleeing inner city gentrification, one local suburb with its own police department has put into place a policy allowing the city to fine the owners of apartment complexes to which police are frequently called, giving landlords an incentive to monitor the behavior of their own tenants. Poor people remain poor because of their behavior, starting with having children they cannot afford. That lack of responsibility spills over as failure to monitor those children. As a disabled, aging widow receiving housing assistance I live in "affordable housing" -- in my complex the majority of the adults are white -- the kind of bad behavior that destroys a neighborhood transcends race. I see "parents" standing by as their kids rip the limbs off trees, tear down fences... These folks do not come from the same planet as folks who strive to do better for themselves and their families, and no amount of forced desegregation will change that.
16
I do not understand your point. Are you saying that landlords can dictate to tenants what they can and cannot do, much as if they were children?
Actually skeptic -- yes. Your landlord can tell you a lot of stuff, like you must keep the property clean and in good condition -- you MUST pay the rent on time -- you cannot paint the walls purple or play the stereo loud -- you CANNOT have pets, or move your entire extended family in and so on.
Don't like that? Save up money and buy your own home.
Don't like that? Save up money and buy your own home.
2
This is tough, at least in nj, because landlords are not allowed to discriminate, or evict. Something similar was proposed in Trenton, where landlords could be fined for too many noise complaints in their buildings. The landlords argued they need the legal means to evict noise makers.
2
Beginning in the 1970s, several universities, both private and public, on the coasts found that they were unable to compete for faculty because housing costs in nearby areas were too high for faculty -- especially at the junior level -- to afford to move. They came up with strategies to either build housing on their own land or provide subsidies that made up the difference between the market rate and a housing budget that their faculty could afford. Recognizing that children advance socially, economically and intellectually when they live, attend school, mix with peers from a broad range of cultures and socio-economic backgrounds, government has begun to consider vouchers as a way to achieve this. But I wonder whether private companies may follow this same model. After all, as Google and other peninsula companies have found, employees at the lower end of the wage spectrum are crucial to their success, and eventually it will not work to have cooks, janitors, secretaries, and the like traveling 3 hours to work (whether on their own or in GoogleVans). Maybe another answer is for companies to subsidize their own employees' housing at all levels of the company.
3
"...an all-black neighborhood may be tipped into an all-white neighborhood, and a mixed-race neighborhood can be tipped into a highly segregated one, depending on the tolerance."
What does "tolerance" mean? I think this word is being used as a substitute for bigotry.
What does "tolerance" mean? I think this word is being used as a substitute for bigotry.
1
To have a better understanding of why people move in terms of race and culture one should read 'The Social Atom'. It goes a long way toward explaining motives that we aren't consciously aware of.
1
The idea that, fifty years ago, a white family would move away from a black one simply due to skin color makes sense. But, today? 2015? There's got to be more to it than that. Figure out what "that" is & you at least have a sliver of hope in achieving your desired outcome.
8
A good place to start might be to ask those black families fleeing Detroit for white neighborhoods. Whatever the reason those black are fleeing a black neighborhood is probably the same reason whites flee a black neighborhood. and so on and so on. The notion that the movement starts with whites fleeing is incorrect on its face.
6
"The idea that, fifty years ago, a white family would move away from a black one simply due to skin color makes sense. But, today? 2015? There's got to be more to it than that."
No there doesn't need to be more for a significant minority of folks. A few move, and then it snowballs, and you have withe flight. This is not the whole problem, but it is naive to say that reflexive racism is no longer a problem.
No there doesn't need to be more for a significant minority of folks. A few move, and then it snowballs, and you have withe flight. This is not the whole problem, but it is naive to say that reflexive racism is no longer a problem.
1
I would suggest cultural differences vis a vis race is a determining factor. I've know more than a few "racial" bigots who really had no problems if a different color home buyer could afford to buy into their neighborhoods. The operating theory being that if they can afford to buy, they will take the care to maintain their property and the neighborhood ambiance.
I believe I'm not a bigot, but there are several "types" of people I would hate to live next to for cultural reasons, not because of race, color, national origin, religion, etc.
I believe I'm not a bigot, but there are several "types" of people I would hate to live next to for cultural reasons, not because of race, color, national origin, religion, etc.
12
IN EUROPE where there are extensive social safety nets, one hears of some of the same problems we face in the US. For example the Arabic suburbs of Paris. It seems as if the lack of job opportunities is driving most of the anger and discontent, as there is rarely a mention of inadequate schools or single-parent families. In Denmark, when a woman tests positive for a pregnancy, community nurses visit her to assess her needs, housing and emotional wellbeing. The woman is also introduced to an ongoing group of neighbors who are expectant and new mothers. The nurses coordinate these services. We're missing the boat in the US. Until we begin providing nurturance and support of children from the time of conception, our social problems will continue. Neuroscience has demonstrated that the development of the unborn baby's brain depends on the mother's level of nutrition, stress and health. The baby's first year is the time of life when the most dramatic brain development occurs in the child. We must begin to offer universal programs to support expectant mothers, babies and young children immediately so we can support optimal neurodevelopment in children of all ethnic groups. More equal distribution of resources (i.e., wealth) would help greatly. These recommendations go direction against the GOP philosophy of, You're On Your Own. If we stick with that our social problems will grow for all ethnic groups. We must give all babies a chance at optimal brain development..
7
The data supporting the efficacy or nursing support during pregnancy and infancy in Denmark, the Netherlands, and elsewhere (Milwaukee, for example) are very robust. Regrettably, many Americans look upon this as big gub'mint, the "nanny state," and all that. This aspect of our national mythology may by itself doom us to the status of a second-rate country in this century.
2
Denmark: Population ~6 million
United States: Population ~323 million
Seriously?
United States: Population ~323 million
Seriously?
5
Denmark: 99.999% white, blonde and blue-eyed and ethnically Christian.
Also, in Denmark, that pregnant woman is likely either married, or living with a committed partner. She is also likely over 22 years of age, and has graduated high school.
In the US, the pregnant GIRL is probably 16 or 17 (and not unheard of for her to be 11, 12, or 13!). The father is not around -- statistically he is an adult many years older, and has 4-5 OTHER illegitimate children and supports none of them. The girl is a product of generational welfare -- her mother, grandmother, her sisters -- and knows no other lifestyle.
Comparing these two situations is the height of ridiculousness.
Also, in Denmark, that pregnant woman is likely either married, or living with a committed partner. She is also likely over 22 years of age, and has graduated high school.
In the US, the pregnant GIRL is probably 16 or 17 (and not unheard of for her to be 11, 12, or 13!). The father is not around -- statistically he is an adult many years older, and has 4-5 OTHER illegitimate children and supports none of them. The girl is a product of generational welfare -- her mother, grandmother, her sisters -- and knows no other lifestyle.
Comparing these two situations is the height of ridiculousness.
6
I think that the idea that whites are motivated to move away when they see what they view as an intolerable level of black neighbors (for some whites, one family within a two or three-block radius) has the ring of truth, based on my own experience as a black person (and wife and mother). It has also been my experience that residents of some types of solidly white neighborhoods are more fearful than others of having black neighbors. I would venture the suggestion that the higher the home value and the more stable (in terms of having an anchor such as a university, a high-quality, private prep school, or large, old, mainline religious institutions) a white neighborhood is, the less fearful and prone to move away white residents are when a black family moves in -- just based on my own personal experience, and the experiences that my friends have had.
10
Yes. A lot of racism is subtended by social and economic insecurity. The lower middle class, white as well as black, is getting shafted and need someone to blame.
1
"..intolerable level of black neighbors.."
Robin, I know you can't speak for them, but I'm curious as to your perspective on what led to the levels to becoming intolerable for the white neighbors? In your opinion, was it simply racism? Cultural (music, etc)? Behavioral (noise levels, etc)? Something else?
I'd love to be able to ask the white neighbors these same questions & see how closely your perspectives matched their stated reason(s) for moving. My guess is both sides would walk away having learned something useful & beneficial about the other.
Robin, I know you can't speak for them, but I'm curious as to your perspective on what led to the levels to becoming intolerable for the white neighbors? In your opinion, was it simply racism? Cultural (music, etc)? Behavioral (noise levels, etc)? Something else?
I'd love to be able to ask the white neighbors these same questions & see how closely your perspectives matched their stated reason(s) for moving. My guess is both sides would walk away having learned something useful & beneficial about the other.
2
I agree, it is a fascinating subject. Here is my two cents' worth: The neighborhood where I've lived for the last 20 years with my family is predominantly white. Black families and white families have moved in and out (although not very frequently). We are a fairly homogeneous group, in terms of education and income, and probably a bit standoffish. In my experience, most whites are uncomfortable in any situation (a party, a classroom, a job, a neighborhood) where the percentage of blacks present is more than 10 to 15 percent. Most blacks don't really care.
2
I think that all of this recent discussion of racial and socio-economic segregation and housing policy fails to discuss one key point- what happens to these neighborhoods if you resettle these low-income families somewhere else? The problems with many of these neighborhoods is already centered around divestment- the black middle class moved out long ago, leaving behind the poor and disadvantaged. How do you improve a neighborhood by removing its residents? Not to mention, what happens to the land when they are gone. Is this a land grab? How do you handle the dichotomy of advocating for moving people yet advocating against "gentrification"?
Seems to me that we need to build strong communities rather than abandon our communities. And yes, that probably requires some gentrification of existing low-income neighborhoods. Sure, gentrification can be problematic- guess what, I can't afford to live where I grew up either. But, the choice of self-integration and investment in our communities is a good thing. That can have a lot of benefits.
Seems to me that we need to build strong communities rather than abandon our communities. And yes, that probably requires some gentrification of existing low-income neighborhoods. Sure, gentrification can be problematic- guess what, I can't afford to live where I grew up either. But, the choice of self-integration and investment in our communities is a good thing. That can have a lot of benefits.
6
If I were black I imagine I would find it offensive to suggest that the best thing I can do to improve my economic and social prospects is to live among white people. Especially if many of those white people don't want me to live near them.
The article seems to suggests that black people are like radioactive particles... a few scattered around are OK but once you get enough of them close together some sort of chain reaction occurs and suddenly the schools fall apart, the jobs disappear, teenagers choose drugs, sex or crime for their primary entertainment and the neighborhood begins a steady descent into poverty and desperation.
I'm sorry, but as a middle class white American living in a very racially diverse city (London), I find this idea as incomprehensible as it is offensive.
The article seems to suggests that black people are like radioactive particles... a few scattered around are OK but once you get enough of them close together some sort of chain reaction occurs and suddenly the schools fall apart, the jobs disappear, teenagers choose drugs, sex or crime for their primary entertainment and the neighborhood begins a steady descent into poverty and desperation.
I'm sorry, but as a middle class white American living in a very racially diverse city (London), I find this idea as incomprehensible as it is offensive.
11
If you find the idea incomprehensible, I suggest you go to a school where you can common sense. Why do you think town after town, city after city, has turned from small percentage black to majority black in a small amount of time. As much as left-wing "progressives" think all of those moving are nothing but ignorant racists, people do not want to live where they believe crime will be endemic and their lives in danger.
14
Try this then:
*Poor* people are like radioactive particles... a few scattered around are OK but once you get enough of them close together some sort of chain reaction occurs and suddenly the schools fall apart, the jobs disappear, teenagers choose drugs, sex or crime for their primary entertainment and the neighborhood begins a steady descent into poverty and desperation.
This is true for people of all races, as anyone who lives in Rhode Island or Kentucky or near London council housing can attest to.
Only middle and upper class people do not know the truth of this, because they spend their lives cocooned in their Ivory Towers, busily and determinedly taking 'offense'.
*Poor* people are like radioactive particles... a few scattered around are OK but once you get enough of them close together some sort of chain reaction occurs and suddenly the schools fall apart, the jobs disappear, teenagers choose drugs, sex or crime for their primary entertainment and the neighborhood begins a steady descent into poverty and desperation.
This is true for people of all races, as anyone who lives in Rhode Island or Kentucky or near London council housing can attest to.
Only middle and upper class people do not know the truth of this, because they spend their lives cocooned in their Ivory Towers, busily and determinedly taking 'offense'.
8
"The article seems to suggests that black people are like radioactive particles... a few scattered around are OK but once you get enough of them close together some sort of chain reaction occurs and suddenly the schools fall apart, the jobs disappear, teenagers choose drugs, sex or crime for their primary entertainment and the neighborhood begins a steady descent into poverty and desperation."
This is incomprehensible only if you are a rational person. If on the other hand you are besotted with prejudice, it makes perfect sense. It is understandable that such a fallacy could arise, however, given the observation that "once you get enough of (the rich) close together some sort of chain reaction occurs,"
leading to greed, pervasive snobbery and unbridled entitlement.
This is incomprehensible only if you are a rational person. If on the other hand you are besotted with prejudice, it makes perfect sense. It is understandable that such a fallacy could arise, however, given the observation that "once you get enough of (the rich) close together some sort of chain reaction occurs,"
leading to greed, pervasive snobbery and unbridled entitlement.
Why must the poor leave their neighborhoods? If the social environments are so terrible in poor neighborhoods and these neighborhoods are so detrimental to young children, why should the first choice be a mass exodus? Why should the government provide housing in affluent neighborhoods for the poor, creating anxiety and fear?
If the affluent are so fearful of their fellow Americans, whom may be poor and disadvantaged, why can’t we make to poor neighborhoods great? Americans were more than willing to nation build Iraq. Shouldn’t we use eminent domain to give ownership of residence to the overcharged renters in poor neighborhoods? We can keep this shell game going forever in this nation, with developers moving the affluent around and around in circles, just one step ahead of “those people”, or we could stop this non sense, go into disadvantaged neighborhoods, and create real improvements.
Why can’t we bring real investment to disadvantaged neighborhoods, without “gentrification and displacement”? If America is the greatest nation on earth, what is stopping us from giving power to our poor?
If the affluent are so fearful of their fellow Americans, whom may be poor and disadvantaged, why can’t we make to poor neighborhoods great? Americans were more than willing to nation build Iraq. Shouldn’t we use eminent domain to give ownership of residence to the overcharged renters in poor neighborhoods? We can keep this shell game going forever in this nation, with developers moving the affluent around and around in circles, just one step ahead of “those people”, or we could stop this non sense, go into disadvantaged neighborhoods, and create real improvements.
Why can’t we bring real investment to disadvantaged neighborhoods, without “gentrification and displacement”? If America is the greatest nation on earth, what is stopping us from giving power to our poor?
5
Housing projects all start out clean and safe and the people living there neglect and destroy their own environment.
Anyone who thinks this is a 'minority problem' should go visit Kentucky, Utah, Rhode Island or many other majority white states.
Anyone who thinks this is a 'minority problem' should go visit Kentucky, Utah, Rhode Island or many other majority white states.
2
I live in an upper middle class neighborhood with black professionals who are excellent neighbors. A few miles away, there is a low income area that is like a war zone with drugs, muggings, assaults and murder.
At any rate, the elephant in the room that you failed to mention is crime. Whether it is economic or racial, I don't know but it's not much of home if you must bar your windows and live in fear. A lot of lower income races bring crime into their new neighborhoods and the old neighbors depart. That not segregation or racism but common sense.
At any rate, the elephant in the room that you failed to mention is crime. Whether it is economic or racial, I don't know but it's not much of home if you must bar your windows and live in fear. A lot of lower income races bring crime into their new neighborhoods and the old neighbors depart. That not segregation or racism but common sense.
25
I am interested in Mr. Edsall's question, "who actually lives in very poor neighborhoods", and the Century Foundation data he cites: "25.2 percent of African-Americans, 17.4 of Hispanics and 7.5 percent of whites."
Given distribution of race in the U.S. population (white, 62.6 percent; black, 13.2 percent; Hispanic, 17.1 percent), the largest group of Americans trapped in low-income neighborhoods is white (14.8 million whites, 10.6 million blacks, 9.4 million Hispanics).
Given distribution of race in the U.S. population (white, 62.6 percent; black, 13.2 percent; Hispanic, 17.1 percent), the largest group of Americans trapped in low-income neighborhoods is white (14.8 million whites, 10.6 million blacks, 9.4 million Hispanics).
11
Reading through the comments here what I hear is one thing: Black skin color is trouble. The trouble with assigning/seeing trouble as a skin color mainly, is that it makes even the most openminded people closed-minded.
How will a black educated middle class family with two well-behaved 14 & 17 olds be viewed when they move in by white neighbors?
- Would how this family is viewed change if the teenagers are girls? -
-Would how this familiy is viewed change if they're childless but the wife is overweight and stays home 50% of the time?
-Would this black middle class family be viewed different if the parents speak with an accent while the two teenagers sons speak "American?"
-What if people who visit this family do not dress western but "foreign", would they be viewed how by white neighbors?
-This family "earned the right" to live in this neighborhood by the area's measures so, should they be judged at all regardless of the above?
An honest response to each of these questions, I hope will help us be honest with ourselves on what we are really worried about - crime, bad behavior or racial exclusivity.
How will a black educated middle class family with two well-behaved 14 & 17 olds be viewed when they move in by white neighbors?
- Would how this family is viewed change if the teenagers are girls? -
-Would how this familiy is viewed change if they're childless but the wife is overweight and stays home 50% of the time?
-Would this black middle class family be viewed different if the parents speak with an accent while the two teenagers sons speak "American?"
-What if people who visit this family do not dress western but "foreign", would they be viewed how by white neighbors?
-This family "earned the right" to live in this neighborhood by the area's measures so, should they be judged at all regardless of the above?
An honest response to each of these questions, I hope will help us be honest with ourselves on what we are really worried about - crime, bad behavior or racial exclusivity.
6
Reading through the comments what I hear is one thing: The culture of the poor is the problem, no matter their skin color.
Anyone who has lived in a poor neighborhood knows this as a fact.
Anyone who has lived in a poor neighborhood knows this as a fact.
1
The solution is to create more jobs, eh?
2
It really comes down the the fact a workable solution can't happen until most Americans believe this is their problem as well as those actually in poverty.... and that's not close to happening. All the lovely progressive thoughts that come in to your editorial board espousing beautiful liberal ideals until one actually requires them to deal with it face to face. Progress is fine until it changes what I and my family have then it's back to rationalizations and denial.
12
It is not anyone else's problem when young girls and women of any race, religion, or income, refuse to stop having children that they can't afford, don't want, and don't know how to raise. I got myself on the birth control pill over 47 years ago, and no one told me to do it. There is no excuse except laziness for children to have children, as they know about birth control. Lets stop excusing this behavior. There is a direct correlation between the increase in the welfare state, its benefits, and the rise in young female children and women having unlimited children, and single motherhood. It is the main cause of poverty, academic failure, and prison. It is in all races across the board, Blacks, Hispanics, Laotians, and Whites. Although, it is much less in the Asian cultures in general as they have more of a work ethic and cultural norms about family.
2
Hatred of the poor, and its proxy racism, are endemic to every class in this country, and the situation is worst at the bottom, where self-hatred and despair rule entire communities. Until we add substantially to the incomes of poorest and get guns off the street, this will only get worse. Also, for heaven's sake, restore and increase funding of Planned Parenthood. What are these "Christians" smoking?
5
I don't know how many commenters have actual experience living in a neighborhood that would be affected by this. I have. I owned a home in a midwestern town outside of Chicago. It was middle to lower income, older (1920s homes) and very mixed racially. People took care of their properties the best they could within their means, i.e., no fancy landscaping but cut lawns and nice little gardens, etc.
The city designated a portion of the neighborhood to "Section 8" houses. It was terrible. High crime, drugs, a few shootings. We did not care what color they were. I am white, my hispanic and black neighbors were just as fearful of this as I. It doesn't work. If it does, it did not work in my neighborhood.
I am a long-time, committed liberal and I will NOT be guilted or nannied into pretending that this is not a problem that I cannot solve. It doesn't work. Sorry, wish it did. Great concept, but no.
The city designated a portion of the neighborhood to "Section 8" houses. It was terrible. High crime, drugs, a few shootings. We did not care what color they were. I am white, my hispanic and black neighbors were just as fearful of this as I. It doesn't work. If it does, it did not work in my neighborhood.
I am a long-time, committed liberal and I will NOT be guilted or nannied into pretending that this is not a problem that I cannot solve. It doesn't work. Sorry, wish it did. Great concept, but no.
30
Isn't it great that we still live in a country where we have the liberty to choose where we are going to live and who we want as neighbors? While there are no guarantees in life, there are always opportunities. If you are willing to work hard, be responsible with you money and maintain a minimal level of self control and patience; the opportunities are there.
The greatest obstacles to your success in life are the Statists who whisper in your ear, "your a victim", "they owe you", "let the government worry about your future" and so on.
Poverty is a terrible thing and has a devastating impact on children, but the solutions exist in the compassion, ingenuity and generosity of your neighbors not the tyranny of the State.
The greatest obstacles to your success in life are the Statists who whisper in your ear, "your a victim", "they owe you", "let the government worry about your future" and so on.
Poverty is a terrible thing and has a devastating impact on children, but the solutions exist in the compassion, ingenuity and generosity of your neighbors not the tyranny of the State.
10
This is just do-gooder social engineering that will help nobody and anger just about everyone.
People have a right to live where they want to, provided they can afford it.
Attempting to integrate the poor into rich neighborhoods is not a valid role of government
People have a right to live where they want to, provided they can afford it.
Attempting to integrate the poor into rich neighborhoods is not a valid role of government
14
Racism is still strong in America, not doubt about that. But I think this article misses one of the principal reasons for white flight, namely fear of crime and gang activity. This is especially true for white families with school-aged children. In the newspapers and on TV we see frequent reports of murders, drug arrests, random shootings, in poor sections of cities, and people in crime-free suburbs — understandably —don't want these problems moving their way.
On the other hand, I fully understand why families who live in dangerous areas want to move to a safe place. They want a better life and better schools for their children.
Although racism is still strong in America, the much bigger problem is poverty. Unemployment, a minimum wage that is too small, and a feeling of hopelessness among poor people are ruining our country. White flight is just one symptom. Police brutality is another. We need a huge federal effort to attack poverty.
On the other hand, I fully understand why families who live in dangerous areas want to move to a safe place. They want a better life and better schools for their children.
Although racism is still strong in America, the much bigger problem is poverty. Unemployment, a minimum wage that is too small, and a feeling of hopelessness among poor people are ruining our country. White flight is just one symptom. Police brutality is another. We need a huge federal effort to attack poverty.
4
So you've given plenty of reasons why white flight is not racism, what is your evidence then that racism is still strong in America?
3
My neighborhood is middle class, multicultural, multiracial, quite safe and pretty darn peaceful. We are a neighborhood of one-and two family, owner-occupied homes. But if some governmental agency decided to inject some high density "affordable" housing into our midst, this would disappear, and we all know it. Back in the middle of the last century, when neighbors fretted about "new" people moving in, my mother said to a group of local ladies "I don't care what they look like as long as they're nice people." This is, as several posters have already indicated, about much more than race, although yes, race can also be a factor. But let's consider the other factors, the ones largely ignored in all the 'studies". It is primarily, about income, cultural values, behavior. Face it - it's about class. And the concept of "class" is largely unacknowledged in this country, because the class system is not supposed to exist here.....we're exceptional, remember? But then, it's so much easier to ascribe it to race alone. This is simplistic thinking, not good research.
24
Where three quarters of children are born out of wedlock and there is a culture of poverty, attempts at integration are bound to fail. Even intact black middle class families will move away from the social anarchy the underclass bring with them. Early intervention with Head Start programs, contraception, prenatal care, and other health services for women, suppression of criminal activity, and increased employment opportunities are the song term solution. You must solve the problem in the distressed neighborhoods in those neighborhoods. You cannot bring it to the outside where the poor will remain marginalized and their behaviors don't change. What you need is a Marshall plan for the poor; a virtual New Deal.
22
While Mr. Edsall's columns are usually the best among opinion columns, I wish he included stats about Asians as well. My hunch is that those numbers will reveal that this is not a problem as much about race as it is about class.
16
The real problem is poverty.
I am not sure how to fix that but I have to guess it is not cheap.
On the other hand, it is a long term investment, get people educated, working and paying taxes instead of getting welfare or being in prison.
It is amazing that we are the richest industrialized country by far as measured by GDP per capita.
But you don't see people working two part-time minimum wage jobs, without healthcare and below the poverty line in countries like Denmark or Germany.
We have done this to ourselves.
I am not sure how to fix that but I have to guess it is not cheap.
On the other hand, it is a long term investment, get people educated, working and paying taxes instead of getting welfare or being in prison.
It is amazing that we are the richest industrialized country by far as measured by GDP per capita.
But you don't see people working two part-time minimum wage jobs, without healthcare and below the poverty line in countries like Denmark or Germany.
We have done this to ourselves.
3
It is welcome to find so much being written on this subject recently, truly one of the most critical issues in the US. I have spent almost 40 years working in the affordable housing field and find that attitudes about class have if anything hardened and attitudes about race are largely unchanged when it comes to living around people who are different from ourselves. I wonder if this will ever change; perhaps the Millenials will be more tolerant. I totally agree there is a tipping point phenomenon. The middle-middle class neighborhood I live in in suburban Columbus is about 10% non-white, below the point of causing more conservative whites to feel uncomfortable...but it totally helps neighborhood stability that the minority families are not also lower income.
3
"But that does not mean that these middle class communities will unambiguously open their doors to the minority poor."
I think that you can remove the word "minority" from that sentence. Middle and upper class communities do not want poor people living next door. It just so happens that the vast majority of poor people are people of color (which is a different important problem). This is a separate issue from segregated middle class suburbs which are a result of racist or prejudicial tendencies. On the latter issue the numbers are at least moving in the right direction (if not very quickly).
I think that you can remove the word "minority" from that sentence. Middle and upper class communities do not want poor people living next door. It just so happens that the vast majority of poor people are people of color (which is a different important problem). This is a separate issue from segregated middle class suburbs which are a result of racist or prejudicial tendencies. On the latter issue the numbers are at least moving in the right direction (if not very quickly).
8
One simple limiting factor on introducing low-cost housing into affluent neighborhoods is that no other social phenomena registers Republican voters faster and no other phenomena "gets out the vote." Democratic legislators understand that.
The Marin County example in California is illustrative. The California legislature is almost two-thirds Democratic but a large moderate swing group of suburban Democrats holds sway between Republican suburbanites and inner city Democrats and this moderate caucus holds most of the Democrats' Anglo and Asian legislators. Asian voters, and suburban Anglo Democrats (they do exist), are resistant to top-down government mandated integration and affirmative actions programs, particularly programs that disadvantage high achieving students to make room for lower achieving students from other groups.
Asians and educated suburban Anglo Democrats believe in equal opportunity but also believe that competition should largely determine outcomes--like where you get to go to school and where you get to live. They are very, very American in this regard!
The Marin County example in California is illustrative. The California legislature is almost two-thirds Democratic but a large moderate swing group of suburban Democrats holds sway between Republican suburbanites and inner city Democrats and this moderate caucus holds most of the Democrats' Anglo and Asian legislators. Asian voters, and suburban Anglo Democrats (they do exist), are resistant to top-down government mandated integration and affirmative actions programs, particularly programs that disadvantage high achieving students to make room for lower achieving students from other groups.
Asians and educated suburban Anglo Democrats believe in equal opportunity but also believe that competition should largely determine outcomes--like where you get to go to school and where you get to live. They are very, very American in this regard!
10
Yonkers followed the path of Detroit. With social engineering forced upon Yonkers by the hypocrite Judge Sand (who lived in Pound Ridge where the only poor people were the ones tending to his lawn) what once was a vibrant middle-class City is now one that has a disaster for a school system and is more segregated now then before Judge Sand's rulings.
When will Government officials learn that to force low-income, heavily subsidized families into hard-working middle-class enclaves is a recipe for disaster. No one, no matter what race, wants Section 8 housing families living next to them and will flee as soon as they appear along with their social problems.
Instead, why not change the culture for these low-income families by stressing education, parental involvement with their kids and the value of hard-work over dependency on Government handouts.
When will Government officials learn that to force low-income, heavily subsidized families into hard-working middle-class enclaves is a recipe for disaster. No one, no matter what race, wants Section 8 housing families living next to them and will flee as soon as they appear along with their social problems.
Instead, why not change the culture for these low-income families by stressing education, parental involvement with their kids and the value of hard-work over dependency on Government handouts.
20
What is interesting about Detroit (and many other cities) is that it's not just whites that are fleeing the city. So are blacks which is why the city continues to lose population. Essentially anyone who has the resources to do so is fleeing the crime and disfunction of the inner city. No government program is going to change that dynamic.
55
Thank You, Mr. Edsall, for another excellent article on the state of our social infrastructure in America. One thing you did not mention is the concept of primary homes as a place to put down roots and build community versus real estate as a "commodity" to be bought and sold purely for profit. A stable nation depends on stable communities and schools. Many families feel forced to move to help their children get a better education and get away from gangs and drugs. A concerned citizen from Tacoma WA, Lyle Quasim, started a program called "Safe Streets" in 1989 to promote citizen community action to reduce crime and drugs and one of the highest crime areas was cleaned up significantly. This seems like the kind of program community members must use to create stable, civil places to live - no matter what color the people are.
http://safest.org/en/
http://www.blackpast.org/aaw/quasim-lyle-1943
http://safest.org/en/
http://www.blackpast.org/aaw/quasim-lyle-1943
The author and the NYT editors have one thing for wrong is that high schools do not offer a degree, but the piece of paper and or document is called a diploma.
The other absurdity is busing. Which in this day and age is a real costly menace. Some urban city areas may be different, but in many so called rural areas, where one too many utility companies like telephone, DSL and even TV / cable claim rural exemption and get federal subsidies, as do many a fake farmers, who grow no crops other then half an acre of local vegetable and run a little not for profit tax exempt fruit and vegetable stand But are far from rural anything. These areas all have subdivisions after subdivisions. Private horse farms, high school decked with football stadiums lit with flood lights along with base ball fields on the same level with flood lights. Kids will not walk less then half a mile to school or even bicycle. They get picked up and delivered by school buses in front of their doors. Tying up rush hour traffic.
These high school preference is football, baseball etc. Which the local tabloid refer to as careers , while the graduation rate is less then 60% and 40% of the graduates wind up in the military as fodder for wars alike in Iraq and Afghanistan.
The other absurdity is busing. Which in this day and age is a real costly menace. Some urban city areas may be different, but in many so called rural areas, where one too many utility companies like telephone, DSL and even TV / cable claim rural exemption and get federal subsidies, as do many a fake farmers, who grow no crops other then half an acre of local vegetable and run a little not for profit tax exempt fruit and vegetable stand But are far from rural anything. These areas all have subdivisions after subdivisions. Private horse farms, high school decked with football stadiums lit with flood lights along with base ball fields on the same level with flood lights. Kids will not walk less then half a mile to school or even bicycle. They get picked up and delivered by school buses in front of their doors. Tying up rush hour traffic.
These high school preference is football, baseball etc. Which the local tabloid refer to as careers , while the graduation rate is less then 60% and 40% of the graduates wind up in the military as fodder for wars alike in Iraq and Afghanistan.
1
A footnote to this excellent analysis of white-flight, are solutions that attempt to adapt to these trends rather than look for and attempt to resolve the root causes of the problem. Charter schools, for example, is a strategy that leaves untouched the economic, political, and social causes of poor schools. But these adaptations, really only continue the process of segregation, by skimming processes, that place the less poor in charter schools and the very poor in public schools. Politicians would have you believe that the charter schools have better teachers and innovative curricula, but that is nonsense. What charter schools have are students with the economic and social means to do well in school.
5
The charter schools in our community actually cater more to the poor kids with challenged academic skills or behavioral issues; they "graduate" kids who can't perform at grade level.
2
Is the roots of of suburban urban flight racial or economic? I suspect that the two issues are inextricably linked. So speaking of one withoutspeak9ing of the other is almost impossible.
As the situation of the poor improves and wages in the middle class stagnate . It perhaps will become more obvious that most of us are in the same economic boat losing economic power to the one percent who will increasingly live in economically segregated communities. Pitting the racial prejudices of people against each other only takes attention away from the more insidious trend, the impoverishment of anyone not having a huge secret bank account in the Cayman Islands.
As the situation of the poor improves and wages in the middle class stagnate . It perhaps will become more obvious that most of us are in the same economic boat losing economic power to the one percent who will increasingly live in economically segregated communities. Pitting the racial prejudices of people against each other only takes attention away from the more insidious trend, the impoverishment of anyone not having a huge secret bank account in the Cayman Islands.
6
"Is the roots of of suburban urban flight racial or economic? " Neither. The roots are cultural. It's all about values and lifestyles.
3
My observation is that racial segregation is being replaced by socio-economic segregation in America. We're less worried, now, that our neighbor is black. But we are more worried that someone poor, or who acts poor (doesn't maintain their home, parks cars on the lawn, throws loud parties) might move in. If we're white professionals, we'll happily live next to a Latino or Black professional. Living next to an extended family on welfare? Not so much.
.
Schools are a huge issue. But I think a lot of the problem is how poverty is handled in schools. There's an unspoken belief that a high-poverty school has to fail. The schools further this belief when they scuttle AP programs in favor of free lunches, and when they do away with extra curricular programs in favor of tutoring for their lowest performing students. To be fair, free lunches, tutoring, and other programs are important, but they MUST NEVER come at the expense of academic rigor and extra curricular activities. Simply put, in the face of demographic shifts, schools need to be able to say "we're still here. We're still offering the same classes. A few more of your kids classmates are not black or brown. So what." It seems simple enough, but it hasn't happened.
.
Schools are a huge issue. But I think a lot of the problem is how poverty is handled in schools. There's an unspoken belief that a high-poverty school has to fail. The schools further this belief when they scuttle AP programs in favor of free lunches, and when they do away with extra curricular programs in favor of tutoring for their lowest performing students. To be fair, free lunches, tutoring, and other programs are important, but they MUST NEVER come at the expense of academic rigor and extra curricular activities. Simply put, in the face of demographic shifts, schools need to be able to say "we're still here. We're still offering the same classes. A few more of your kids classmates are not black or brown. So what." It seems simple enough, but it hasn't happened.
18
AP programs and lunch programs come from two different funding pools. AP programs are being scuttled to provide other academic programs (though often those for poor folks like ESL or remedial anything) and employee salaries; lunches (and now breakfasts) are usually state or federally funded. An AP student will excel on her own -- the challenge is that without AP she can't get the brownie points she needs to compete for university entrance with kids from better school districts. But hungry kids can't learn at all...
Racial segregation is a particularly American problem exacerbated by our insane geography of sprawl and absence of any comprehensive urban planning. But income segregation is a feature of all developed societies. Even in densely populated European and Asian cities the rich and the poor do not live in the same high rises or the same neighborhoods. The difference, however, is that a big dense cry has public spaces where the rich and the poor meet - public transportation, plazas, markets - and this creates a sense of social cohesion. The American sprawling neighborhoods are the worst of all possible worlds because not only do they segregate the poor, but they cage the rich in boring, soulless, unhealthy suburban enclaves. The return of the young and wealthy to urban cores, so prominent in San Francisco, shows how a vibrant, integrated city operates. But it also shows that the issue is not racial but economic and cultural. SF is not becoming more white. It is becoming more Asian.
7
The black population of San Francisco has declined dramatically in the last 3- years, and will continue to decline. And most blacks live in one isolated neighborhood. Not a good example.
3
Whose neighborhood is it?
The people who live there. That's whose neighborhood it is.
The people who live there determine the quality of the life in the neighborhood by the choices in lifestyle that they make. That is what free will is all about.
This is true for the way people treat their living quarters and respect their neighbors in impoverished neighborhoods as well as in better off neighborhoods.
Importing impoverished people who do not know how to live according to middle class values into middle class neighborhoods will not make those people middle class citizens. There is no osmosis that will automagically transform their behavior. Regardless of race.
The people who live there. That's whose neighborhood it is.
The people who live there determine the quality of the life in the neighborhood by the choices in lifestyle that they make. That is what free will is all about.
This is true for the way people treat their living quarters and respect their neighbors in impoverished neighborhoods as well as in better off neighborhoods.
Importing impoverished people who do not know how to live according to middle class values into middle class neighborhoods will not make those people middle class citizens. There is no osmosis that will automagically transform their behavior. Regardless of race.
28
People need not be impoverished to "not know how to live according to middle class values". One problem is that many first-time or move-up homeowners do not realize that purchasing a home entails ongoing maintenance costs that can be significant either in terms of one's own time and sweat or in terms of paying others to complete various tasks. The inexperienced have therefore not budgeted for those expenses or for shared neighborhood costs, and every attempt on the part of others to even gently encourage home maintenance or neighborhood improvement is met with resistance that is mostly due to monetary constraints, but that nevertheless becomes a point of contention between neighbors.
8
While Mr. Edsall's essay is enlightening the real question is why do "whites" fear living with "non-whites" who share the same income demographics? We must address this question in order to answer Mr. Edsall's question, "Whose Neighborhood Is It?"
3
FreeFreeMarkets.com has been writing about these issues for years. Glad to see some corroboration on segregation issues in the Detroit.
Moving people instead of fixing the underlying problems is a band-aid.
Self-segregation is not the problem and forced integration is not the solution. Inequality and lack of jobs are the top-most the problem, followed by single parent households. These then create a culture of poverty, with entirely different norms of behavior, and that's what middle-class people really hate. That's where we get downright tribal.
If we really get to core issues, it's about class, and class creates culture (society norms, expectations, behavior). Culture then influences our choices, and around we go.
Self-segregation is not the problem and forced integration is not the solution. Inequality and lack of jobs are the top-most the problem, followed by single parent households. These then create a culture of poverty, with entirely different norms of behavior, and that's what middle-class people really hate. That's where we get downright tribal.
If we really get to core issues, it's about class, and class creates culture (society norms, expectations, behavior). Culture then influences our choices, and around we go.
82
We speak the same language. I suspect there's little need for government policy initiatives or aggressive interventions to encourage a national consensus surrounding the obvious. At the close of a work day, people enjoy a few hours of respite in their chosen community of neighbors, for whatever reasons.
My personal reasons for choosing a particular neighborhood are not unusual: 1) I have the financial means to live there, 2) I enjoy the occasional company of the neighbors when I seek company, and 3) I search for peace and quiet with no on-going neighborhood drama.
My personal reasons for choosing a particular neighborhood are not unusual: 1) I have the financial means to live there, 2) I enjoy the occasional company of the neighbors when I seek company, and 3) I search for peace and quiet with no on-going neighborhood drama.
1
D,
I believe you're wrong. The rate of marriage is higher in U.S. than in many countries, like the Scandinavian countries & several East Euro ones. IMO, it's racism raw & simple or not so simple. The poor hate bad behavior just as much as the middle class. It's the enduring, insidious refusal to establish incentives & decisions to establish equality, like "forced" bussing, housing set sides, medical & welfare interventions to achieve equal life opportunities for all Americans. We need leaders with spine, who will stand up to the vested interests & privileges of the tiniest sliver of the wealthiest families in the U.S. One small example: corporations & the privileged can take deductions for meals & very expensive entertainment for clients, but congress cut food stamps this year. Perverse notions of equality must end.
It is & will be a lifetime struggle, but as Billy Holliday said: "...the impossible will take a little while."
I believe you're wrong. The rate of marriage is higher in U.S. than in many countries, like the Scandinavian countries & several East Euro ones. IMO, it's racism raw & simple or not so simple. The poor hate bad behavior just as much as the middle class. It's the enduring, insidious refusal to establish incentives & decisions to establish equality, like "forced" bussing, housing set sides, medical & welfare interventions to achieve equal life opportunities for all Americans. We need leaders with spine, who will stand up to the vested interests & privileges of the tiniest sliver of the wealthiest families in the U.S. One small example: corporations & the privileged can take deductions for meals & very expensive entertainment for clients, but congress cut food stamps this year. Perverse notions of equality must end.
It is & will be a lifetime struggle, but as Billy Holliday said: "...the impossible will take a little while."
1
Please....stop the excuses. I and most I knew at the time, were raised in paycheck-to-paycheck households. Lack of money did not mean lack of cleanliness, civil behavior, ambition, trust among neighbors, unwed mothers of multiple children and multiple fathers, etc. Do not equate anti-social culture with low-income culture. Only since the 1960s has that idea gained wider acceptance--perhaps even general acceptance (especially among the empathetic public.
6
Perhaps neighborhoods remain below an increasing tipping point because the class nature of minorities who inhabit them have equalized to some extent -- more middle-class blacks, for instance, moving into middle-class neighborhoods as opposed to very poor blacks moving into those neighborhoods. Tom points out that Schelling and Card don't parse the challenges of integrating very poor blacks into middle-class neighborhoods, as if that's a desirable outcome -- or even a securable objective.
I'd suggest , while racism clearly still exists in America, that with time and moderating viewpoints we've moved beyond a reality that justifies calling increasing concentrations of poverty "racial my nature". I'd suggest that it's become racial by historical outcome more than by nature. This distinction is important, because it suggests different solutions.
Forcing integration is the same bromide we see in Europe, with millions of refugees displaced from war-torn and failed societies seeking entry to more orderly, prosperous and successful societies. A humanitarian disaster is brewing there because this is not a natural and may not be a sustainable solution -- as it may not be by transplanting the very poor into middle-class neighborhoods.
We need to find a way to equalize the effectiveness of education in ALL our communities. Only in this way can we create more middle-class minorities that "fit" more organically and successfully into middle-class communities.
I'd suggest , while racism clearly still exists in America, that with time and moderating viewpoints we've moved beyond a reality that justifies calling increasing concentrations of poverty "racial my nature". I'd suggest that it's become racial by historical outcome more than by nature. This distinction is important, because it suggests different solutions.
Forcing integration is the same bromide we see in Europe, with millions of refugees displaced from war-torn and failed societies seeking entry to more orderly, prosperous and successful societies. A humanitarian disaster is brewing there because this is not a natural and may not be a sustainable solution -- as it may not be by transplanting the very poor into middle-class neighborhoods.
We need to find a way to equalize the effectiveness of education in ALL our communities. Only in this way can we create more middle-class minorities that "fit" more organically and successfully into middle-class communities.
7
@ Richard.
A nice empathetic humane sentiment that denies and defies my family reality.
One of my paternal and one of my maternal great grandfathers were both college graduates. Both of my paternal grandparents were college graduates. Only one of my uncles and aunts was a college graduate. Including me, most of my cousins and our kids are college graduates with at least two degrees. We have always been defined and confined by our racially colored physical caste in the urban North and rural South.
There is a Chicago neighborhood colloquially known as "Pill Hill" based upon the predominance of members of the medical profession along with other professions among local residents. When blacks of similar socioeconomic education values and background moved into the community during the late 1960's and early 1970's, White Pill Hill quickly became and remains Black Pill Hill.
Outside of communities anchored by old influential residential universities and colleges in my experience sustained integration does not work. Outside of a handful of super rich super famous super powerful black neighbors integration does not work.
A nice empathetic humane sentiment that denies and defies my family reality.
One of my paternal and one of my maternal great grandfathers were both college graduates. Both of my paternal grandparents were college graduates. Only one of my uncles and aunts was a college graduate. Including me, most of my cousins and our kids are college graduates with at least two degrees. We have always been defined and confined by our racially colored physical caste in the urban North and rural South.
There is a Chicago neighborhood colloquially known as "Pill Hill" based upon the predominance of members of the medical profession along with other professions among local residents. When blacks of similar socioeconomic education values and background moved into the community during the late 1960's and early 1970's, White Pill Hill quickly became and remains Black Pill Hill.
Outside of communities anchored by old influential residential universities and colleges in my experience sustained integration does not work. Outside of a handful of super rich super famous super powerful black neighbors integration does not work.
1
Blackmamba:
In one sense you're arguing my case, not countering it. I don't believe that forced integration across classes works, you seem to believe that integration doesn't work at all. I disagree, so long as the integration is organically accomplished and not legislated.
Go to just about any middle-class community in America, but particularly in our North: you see black families that you didn't see when I was a kid in the 1960s. The ones you see are middle-class, as are their neighbors. They're not the super-rich or celebrity exceptions but working people. Since the late 1970s, there hasn't been a neighborhood that any family of mine have lived in that didn't contain black families (I myself lived for a long time in Manhattan, which is a special case and contains MANY professional blacks -- but my current neighborhood is upper-middle-class and contains its share of black families).
But as a general matter, I agree that forced integration is a waste of both money and stomach-lining. Doing what Edsall flogs, which is forced-integration of the very poor with the middle-classes is not organic and for that reason manifestly fails.
Your example of black "Pill Hill" runs counter to the general experience of a gradually integrating middle-class across America as more and more blacks enter the middle classes.
In one sense you're arguing my case, not countering it. I don't believe that forced integration across classes works, you seem to believe that integration doesn't work at all. I disagree, so long as the integration is organically accomplished and not legislated.
Go to just about any middle-class community in America, but particularly in our North: you see black families that you didn't see when I was a kid in the 1960s. The ones you see are middle-class, as are their neighbors. They're not the super-rich or celebrity exceptions but working people. Since the late 1970s, there hasn't been a neighborhood that any family of mine have lived in that didn't contain black families (I myself lived for a long time in Manhattan, which is a special case and contains MANY professional blacks -- but my current neighborhood is upper-middle-class and contains its share of black families).
But as a general matter, I agree that forced integration is a waste of both money and stomach-lining. Doing what Edsall flogs, which is forced-integration of the very poor with the middle-classes is not organic and for that reason manifestly fails.
Your example of black "Pill Hill" runs counter to the general experience of a gradually integrating middle-class across America as more and more blacks enter the middle classes.
2
@Richard
A really nice empathetic sympathetic idea that has been my family experience past nor present. I get the ALL. But I have not seen ANY. No one wants to live around and with sociopaths.
My paternal and maternal great grandfather college graduates were never equal to the least educated white man during their lives. When one of my non-college educated great great grandfather's died the headline in the local paper read "Good Negro Dead". He was thrown from a mule at 88 years old. Born into enslavement he was a remarkable brave wise man. He is buried in the colored section of the local cemetery. Both of my paternal grandparents were college graduates. Only one of my aunts and uncles was. Including me, most of my cousins and our kids have at least two degrees.
There is a Chicago community colloquially known as "Pill Hill" based upon the predominance of the medical profession among the professions held by community residents. What used to be" White Pill Hill" quickly became and remains "Black Pill Hill". Indeed, the black professional elite included in addition to doctors architects, engineers, entrepreneurs, educators, politicians and preachers.
With the exception of university and college communities and the relative handful of black super famous super rich super powerful scattered about there is no stable sustained racial integration regardless of education and values in the Chicagoland area.
A really nice empathetic sympathetic idea that has been my family experience past nor present. I get the ALL. But I have not seen ANY. No one wants to live around and with sociopaths.
My paternal and maternal great grandfather college graduates were never equal to the least educated white man during their lives. When one of my non-college educated great great grandfather's died the headline in the local paper read "Good Negro Dead". He was thrown from a mule at 88 years old. Born into enslavement he was a remarkable brave wise man. He is buried in the colored section of the local cemetery. Both of my paternal grandparents were college graduates. Only one of my aunts and uncles was. Including me, most of my cousins and our kids have at least two degrees.
There is a Chicago community colloquially known as "Pill Hill" based upon the predominance of the medical profession among the professions held by community residents. What used to be" White Pill Hill" quickly became and remains "Black Pill Hill". Indeed, the black professional elite included in addition to doctors architects, engineers, entrepreneurs, educators, politicians and preachers.
With the exception of university and college communities and the relative handful of black super famous super rich super powerful scattered about there is no stable sustained racial integration regardless of education and values in the Chicagoland area.
1
There are two American very relevant racially colored realities. America was built upon socioeconomic political educational historical humanity denying enslavement of black Africans and their unequal oppression and discrimination. And there is race as in colored by chronologically ecologically geographically isolated human populations. In America, the latter biological evolutionary DNA genetic East African origin one human race reality is denied by the one-drop makes you black American rule.
All humans can trace their roots back to East Africa 180-200,000 years ago. Yet in America, Barack Obama is not half-white by biological nature nor all white by cultural nurture. America is a centuries old monument dedicated to sustaining that reality by governing practice.
A physically identifiable colored American "racial" minority carrying the "badges and incidents" of slavery is defined and confined by how much integration the reigning and ruling white "racial" majority is willing to tolerate. Before "white-flight" reaches their disintegration "tipping point".
Neither economics nor sociology nor psychology nor history nor finance nor accounting are scientific fields of study. There are too many variables, too many unknowns and no controls. All of those fields are race, color, gender, ethnic, sectarian and national origin history plus arithmetic. The economic Nobel Prize was created by financial institutions.
"Whose neighborhood is it?" depends upon who "we" and "they" are?
All humans can trace their roots back to East Africa 180-200,000 years ago. Yet in America, Barack Obama is not half-white by biological nature nor all white by cultural nurture. America is a centuries old monument dedicated to sustaining that reality by governing practice.
A physically identifiable colored American "racial" minority carrying the "badges and incidents" of slavery is defined and confined by how much integration the reigning and ruling white "racial" majority is willing to tolerate. Before "white-flight" reaches their disintegration "tipping point".
Neither economics nor sociology nor psychology nor history nor finance nor accounting are scientific fields of study. There are too many variables, too many unknowns and no controls. All of those fields are race, color, gender, ethnic, sectarian and national origin history plus arithmetic. The economic Nobel Prize was created by financial institutions.
"Whose neighborhood is it?" depends upon who "we" and "they" are?
1
I have no idea what you are trying to say... and I did really try.
3
This is not about skin color. It is about poverty and the culture that goes with it. While we cannot ignore the history that underlies black poverty, it is only natural for people to want to avoid the noise, the crime, and the disarray that accompanies it. My immediate neighborhood in Manhattan is quiet, clean and safe, and is mixed racially if not economically. Very recently there was a fatal shooting not too far away that occurred at an outdoor barbecue after midnight. It is not racist to want to avoid that.
109
Why not say the culture that generates impoverished circumstances, not the culture that poverty creates. While, yes, somewhat interdependent, nevertheless, behavior, attitudes, and responsibility count far more than money. As to jobs, why not more emphasis on local/neighborhood entrepreneurialism. Not a panacea, but far more effective than clamoring for a higher minimum wage at Walmart and fast food restaurants. Are those the employers where most people want to build a career--or a life?
1
As a kid I lived in a wealthy housing development in Potomac, MD across the road from a freed-slave enclave turned into a housing project called Scotland. There was a palisade fence, ten feet high that kept out Scotland (Google Maps shows me it is now two fences thirty years later).
The kids from Scotland went to Bells Mill Elementary with me, and at that age it felt normal, because it was normal. It was Potomac, whites did not flee, you can bet. Life went on.
Funny thing. When I was ten, I crashed my new bike into that fence (not knowing how to turn) and popped the nails linking two panels. It got pulled down so kids could come and go between the two developments. It got repaired. Got torn out. Got repaired. Until "they" finally put a panel on posts three foot out from the rest. Victory.
Google Maps does not show it.
The kids from Scotland went to Bells Mill Elementary with me, and at that age it felt normal, because it was normal. It was Potomac, whites did not flee, you can bet. Life went on.
Funny thing. When I was ten, I crashed my new bike into that fence (not knowing how to turn) and popped the nails linking two panels. It got pulled down so kids could come and go between the two developments. It got repaired. Got torn out. Got repaired. Until "they" finally put a panel on posts three foot out from the rest. Victory.
Google Maps does not show it.
“In Milliken, the Supreme Court had in effect told whites that it was safe to flee and that it would protect them”. Until I read this, I never knew white flight was illegal or unconstitutional.
Has it ever occurred to anyone that helping the poor first, by improving their schools, expanding social services, finding a way to police their neighborhoods without shooting them and giving them jobs that pay a living wage might be a better solution than simply moving them someplace else? Help people move into the middle class and move on their own then worry about integrating middle class neighborhoods. Unfortunately, it is easier to get a judge to force a town to build low-income housing then it is to build a political consensus to fight a real war on poverty. Only you can’t build enough housing to make a real difference. The hard truth is it will take a sustained effort of many decades and many billions of dollars to end poverty and racism in this country for good. That is a message nobody wants to hear and since the poor don’t vote, all politicians talk about is helping the middle class, basically people who don’t need help.
The real segregation that is hurting the poor is the political division of them by race. There a 33 million poor people in this country and countless politicians and pundits on the left and right, intentionally and unintentionally keeping them divided black against white and rural against urban, so they will never become a real political force.
Has it ever occurred to anyone that helping the poor first, by improving their schools, expanding social services, finding a way to police their neighborhoods without shooting them and giving them jobs that pay a living wage might be a better solution than simply moving them someplace else? Help people move into the middle class and move on their own then worry about integrating middle class neighborhoods. Unfortunately, it is easier to get a judge to force a town to build low-income housing then it is to build a political consensus to fight a real war on poverty. Only you can’t build enough housing to make a real difference. The hard truth is it will take a sustained effort of many decades and many billions of dollars to end poverty and racism in this country for good. That is a message nobody wants to hear and since the poor don’t vote, all politicians talk about is helping the middle class, basically people who don’t need help.
The real segregation that is hurting the poor is the political division of them by race. There a 33 million poor people in this country and countless politicians and pundits on the left and right, intentionally and unintentionally keeping them divided black against white and rural against urban, so they will never become a real political force.
7
Republican gerrymandered districting to maintain a white legislative majority, particularly at the municipal and county levels, will always mitigate against residential and public school integration.
1
If Republicans are against the government telling me where to live, I'm all for them.
3
For a rather grim primer on this subject, try viewing "Show Me a Hero" on cable - Yonkers in the late 80s.
2
Just finished watching this compelling show. Unlike what so many are saying in these comments, the show demonstrates that it is really wrong to lump all poor people into some kind of undesirable class. Poverty can happen to anybody and it doesn't make them all criminals.
Yes, there are drugs and teen pregnancy and all those things associated with "projects" as this show and the Wire tell us. But it is time for people to stop saying all poor people would make undesirable neighbors. Not everyone of any color is raised to mow lawns, have swimming parties, celebrate identical holidays, and on and on.
Some poor people are just fine in middle class neighborhoods if given the chance to move there. Often they are simply stuck where they are because of white exclusionary policies and fears.
Yes, there are drugs and teen pregnancy and all those things associated with "projects" as this show and the Wire tell us. But it is time for people to stop saying all poor people would make undesirable neighbors. Not everyone of any color is raised to mow lawns, have swimming parties, celebrate identical holidays, and on and on.
Some poor people are just fine in middle class neighborhoods if given the chance to move there. Often they are simply stuck where they are because of white exclusionary policies and fears.
There is an argument against the anti-abortionists that says, in effect, that these people are all about protecting the unborn fetus and could care less once the child is born. Similarly, any plan to integrate neighborhoods can't stop once poor people are moved in. There then needs to be an investment in schools, day care, community centers, public outreach, the "whole nine yards". There needs to be leadership after the fact that helps poor people change their lives and encourages the middle class to embrace the program as one that will help everyone in the long run.
5
Some readers have commented unfavorably on the use of coercion to solve social problems related to race. This approach does have limited utility in a democratic society. Where the source of discrimination is government or private businesses, as in the Jim Crow era, coercion can effectively end the practice.
Where the problem stems from individual choices related to housing and schools, however, even liberals will tend to reject coercion as government meddling in the lives of individuals, whose only goal is to live in a safe, stable neighborhood and to ensure a quality education for their children.
In these cases, we confront a chicken or egg dilemma. If we succeed in lifting the poor (of whatever race) into the middle class, that will improve their desirability as neighbors. Involvement in crime will tend to fall, family stability will improve, as will the habit of caring for one's property.
But these achievements require access to better education and better jobs, neither of which is generally available in poor neighborhoods.
But government programs targeted at the source of poverty, rather than at the symptom of where people live, would probably attract more support from the middle class (of all races) and have a better chance of improving the living standards of the poor.
There is no easy way to reduce poverty, but an approach that seeks to help the poor without needlessly antagonizing the middle class has a better chance of success than coercion.
Where the problem stems from individual choices related to housing and schools, however, even liberals will tend to reject coercion as government meddling in the lives of individuals, whose only goal is to live in a safe, stable neighborhood and to ensure a quality education for their children.
In these cases, we confront a chicken or egg dilemma. If we succeed in lifting the poor (of whatever race) into the middle class, that will improve their desirability as neighbors. Involvement in crime will tend to fall, family stability will improve, as will the habit of caring for one's property.
But these achievements require access to better education and better jobs, neither of which is generally available in poor neighborhoods.
But government programs targeted at the source of poverty, rather than at the symptom of where people live, would probably attract more support from the middle class (of all races) and have a better chance of improving the living standards of the poor.
There is no easy way to reduce poverty, but an approach that seeks to help the poor without needlessly antagonizing the middle class has a better chance of success than coercion.
13
So the answer to "white flight" is to limit housing permits in the outer ring suburbs ?? So middle class folks are essentially forced to live in areas they no longer want to live in ?? How would this work ? Since local zoning laws determine housing permits – maybe the federal government should take over this responsibility?? Isn't this type of social engineering - something that is done in communist police states ? Since basically all other social policies have now failed - the radical left now has the bright idea of having the already overburden middle class to fix with the problem ?? Are you kidding ?? The GOP should take note of the series of articles the NY editorial board has written on this subject, it gives a good insight into the radical lefts fantasy land. If any of these ideas gets out into the mainstream – I am predicting a landslide for the GOP in 2016.
8
Is there any research about a "tipping point" when the neighborhood is poor white? Race is likely the crucial factor in these data, but it would be important to study poor white neighborhoods too.
8
the premise of this article is wrong from the first sentence. if integrated housing is such a good thing why does the government need to force it upon us?
9
This article leads to the inevitable question, is it worth it? People of color, especially African Americans have born the burden of integration for generations. First discrimination at all levels from banks to real estate agents to restrictive covenants and hostile neighbors. Then came discrimination throughout the financial markets, including GI and FHA loans. Then came white flight pushing one way and gentrification pushing the other.
Why not save white folks the time and money of going through all these different forms of racial aversion or even racial hostility and instead support serious efforts to redevelop black neighborhoods and schools? Not the failed policies of the 60's but serious redevelopment.
Incentive pay to get the best teachers into inner city schools. Subsidized commercial redevelopment, rent control for small businesses, placement of colleges as public anchor institutions, improved public transportation and use of schools as multipurpose community centers. Special assistance for job training and placement could also be concentrated in those areas.
I'm sure economic models would show that serious redevelopment is less expensive than the cost of segregating and re-segregating entire city's, over and over. These revitalized neighborhoods would eventually pay for themselves through increased tax revenue. I'm not optimistic that the fears driving segregation will change anytime soon. So why not a new approach? Call it cities as autonomous regions.
Why not save white folks the time and money of going through all these different forms of racial aversion or even racial hostility and instead support serious efforts to redevelop black neighborhoods and schools? Not the failed policies of the 60's but serious redevelopment.
Incentive pay to get the best teachers into inner city schools. Subsidized commercial redevelopment, rent control for small businesses, placement of colleges as public anchor institutions, improved public transportation and use of schools as multipurpose community centers. Special assistance for job training and placement could also be concentrated in those areas.
I'm sure economic models would show that serious redevelopment is less expensive than the cost of segregating and re-segregating entire city's, over and over. These revitalized neighborhoods would eventually pay for themselves through increased tax revenue. I'm not optimistic that the fears driving segregation will change anytime soon. So why not a new approach? Call it cities as autonomous regions.
6
In the Middle Ages, doctors believed that illness was caused by offending God. The "treatments" including bleeding and purgatives were designed to get rid of the "bad humors" related to disease.
If you couldn't get rid of those without killing the patient, so be it. And since the patient had clearly offended God, there was some level of justification involved.
Many of the current integration battles seem to have at least some relationship to medieval medicine. If busing causes white flight that destroys a tax base, property values, and neighborhoods, and leaves a city worse than when it started, it's seen as "part of the cure."
People who reject housing of the poor in middle class neighborhoods are seen as deserving of punishment.
What we need to do is stop accepting the idea that "necessary harm" is part of the solution. We need to be focused on improving poor neighborhoods, poor lives, and poor schools.
If you couldn't get rid of those without killing the patient, so be it. And since the patient had clearly offended God, there was some level of justification involved.
Many of the current integration battles seem to have at least some relationship to medieval medicine. If busing causes white flight that destroys a tax base, property values, and neighborhoods, and leaves a city worse than when it started, it's seen as "part of the cure."
People who reject housing of the poor in middle class neighborhoods are seen as deserving of punishment.
What we need to do is stop accepting the idea that "necessary harm" is part of the solution. We need to be focused on improving poor neighborhoods, poor lives, and poor schools.
8
I am so sick of government trying to dictate a certain ratio of race in every city, town, village and ocupation. Not every city or occupation is going to be perfectly diverse. Government tries to correct this by essentially doing the exact thing it is trying to prevent, DISCRIMINATING. One race is offered the position, whether it be housing or a job over another sometimes more qualified candidate. Let people work and live wear they want and stop meddling in other people's business. This experiment has already failed and they are only adding to the injustice.
17
We lived in Minneapolis years ago. We liked the neighborhood. The kids approached school age. We talked to many neighbors. All said, "You can try the schools if you want, we did, and you will not like them. The kids will be bused all over ( that has changed), and you will grow tired of fighting with the schools and you will put your kids in private schools." So, we moved. And, we got less crime in the process. Schools and public safety are what people want. And our new neighborhood has been quite diverse, white, Asian, Indian, and Hispanic. If the neighborhood turns into a crime pit, we will move again.
82
Unfortunately, the "tipping point" is not, at least in Brooklyn's experience, the number of black families moving into an apartment building, but the behavior of two or three of those families. Once the old-time renters see a marked difference in their quality of life, they move.
When lightbulbs in hallways and trash-compactor rooms are smashed, shouting and loud music punctuate the night, urine and even feces turn up in stairwells, and young men smoking and drinking and brawling block doorways, then people pick up and leave.
So goes one building, and soon so goes an entire neighborhood as each building's quality of life is in turn compromised.
It isn't color, it's behavior. The same goes for a neighborhood of private houses. Once six kids start spilling out on a once-mowed lawn and strewing their plastic cups and candy wrappers on the sidewalk, and shouting and loud music punctuate the nighttime, and cars begin double-parking and blasting their radios, and people come and go noisily into early-morning hours, then it's time to sell -- even at a loss -- and move.
A family's wrongheaded values and bad behavior doesn't change once that family is removed from its former surroundings. If that were true, Flatbush wouldn't have seen the precipitous decline it did beginning in the late 1960s and early 1970s. If that were true, Erasmus Hall High School would still be the jewel of our once-marvelous public school system.
When lightbulbs in hallways and trash-compactor rooms are smashed, shouting and loud music punctuate the night, urine and even feces turn up in stairwells, and young men smoking and drinking and brawling block doorways, then people pick up and leave.
So goes one building, and soon so goes an entire neighborhood as each building's quality of life is in turn compromised.
It isn't color, it's behavior. The same goes for a neighborhood of private houses. Once six kids start spilling out on a once-mowed lawn and strewing their plastic cups and candy wrappers on the sidewalk, and shouting and loud music punctuate the nighttime, and cars begin double-parking and blasting their radios, and people come and go noisily into early-morning hours, then it's time to sell -- even at a loss -- and move.
A family's wrongheaded values and bad behavior doesn't change once that family is removed from its former surroundings. If that were true, Flatbush wouldn't have seen the precipitous decline it did beginning in the late 1960s and early 1970s. If that were true, Erasmus Hall High School would still be the jewel of our once-marvelous public school system.
168
Every single public housing project started out clean and free of crime and trash.
Did this just somehow 'happen'?
Only those who have never had the misfortune to live in a poor neighborhood can delude themselves that it is the fault of anyone but the residents.
Every generation, the best and the brightest moved up and out, leaving the old, the sick, and the dregs of society who prey on them.
Did this just somehow 'happen'?
Only those who have never had the misfortune to live in a poor neighborhood can delude themselves that it is the fault of anyone but the residents.
Every generation, the best and the brightest moved up and out, leaving the old, the sick, and the dregs of society who prey on them.
3
1966 Erasmus graduate speaking here: you have a point. I feel bad for the Caribbean immigrants who moved in in the early 1970s; they moved into what they thought were stable middle/working class areas, only to encounter decline and decay.
3
Nailed it. 'It is not color (race), it is behavior'. The behavior drives people to leave. Young men, without a consistent father figure modelling the appropriate behavior - loyalty to the family (spouse, children), persistent hard worker always looking for the next opportunity to move the family upward, non-drinker, non-drug user, grounded individual - are doomed to repeat what they observe. This crosses urban and rural communities and races.
3
Almost all residents of middle class neighborhoods welcome middle class residents of any race. It's a question of values and behavior. No one wants crime, loud music, rough kids roaming the streets being rude to everyone,...
My next door neighbors frequently have family gatherings of 60+ people at their home with grandchildren playing in the pool outside. Were it not for the numerous cars in the driveway and the occasional loud splash, we would never know they were there.
My next door neighbors frequently have family gatherings of 60+ people at their home with grandchildren playing in the pool outside. Were it not for the numerous cars in the driveway and the occasional loud splash, we would never know they were there.
89
What this says to me is that elevating the American dream of a reasonably integrated nation wiii require the rescusitation of equal opportunity public policy. No doubt, this may make some hypothetical liberals (myself included) squirm when policy consequences come a-knocking on our front doors, but achieveng our "more perfect union" offers no other choice.
www.endthemadnessnow.org
www.endthemadnessnow.org
Is the point here that whites are simply unreconstructed racists in that they move at the sight of a black face or are these studies a bit more deep than that? If they are, you certainly wouldn't know it. Are there any objective reasons that white neighbors leave when black neighbors move in or is it that middle class neighbors move when poorer neighbors move in?
I do wish there was some meat, not the red meat of racism, on the bones of this analysis. It would certainly be more helpful.
I do wish there was some meat, not the red meat of racism, on the bones of this analysis. It would certainly be more helpful.
10
It would be interesting to see a study correlating crime, race and flight. When people look to purchase a home, a key factor is crime risk, and websites such as Trulia provide data on crime risk of neighborhoods, even color-coding the risk level from less safe (red) to safer (green). Overlay that map with census data population characteristics, and its clear that crime, race and flight are correlated. Any policy that spreads crime into previously safer neighborhoods inevitably will make those neighborhoods less attractive to potential buyers, and continue the re-segregation process. Its a self defeating process, proving once again that 'hell is paved with good intentions.'
23
From reading the comments, I conclude that people wish rather that than move poor Americans to rich neighborhoods, we should help poor people to earn enough money to not be poor. So I again will mention my idea of a service jobs program.
Manufacturing jobs are on the out and robots take over many chores. But no robot will take over the jobs of caring for our elderly, our mentally disabled, our schoolchildren.
Government could provide good paying jobs in all these sectors to achieve full employment as our manufacturing economy changes and good jobs are lost . These jobs will never be provided by the private sector, because there is no profit.
Imagine the improvement in our lives and the money saved, if instead of the type of expensive doomed to fail social engineering detailed in this article, we provide a massive amount of fifteen an hour jobs for people to for example, sit in a nursing home and hold someone's hand and comfort them.
Manufacturing jobs are on the out and robots take over many chores. But no robot will take over the jobs of caring for our elderly, our mentally disabled, our schoolchildren.
Government could provide good paying jobs in all these sectors to achieve full employment as our manufacturing economy changes and good jobs are lost . These jobs will never be provided by the private sector, because there is no profit.
Imagine the improvement in our lives and the money saved, if instead of the type of expensive doomed to fail social engineering detailed in this article, we provide a massive amount of fifteen an hour jobs for people to for example, sit in a nursing home and hold someone's hand and comfort them.
7
In the economy of greed, which made "losers" of most of us, those who were already weak became progressively weaker. No mystery there.
1
"Schelling’s most striking finding is that moderate preferences for same-color neighbors at the individual level can be amplified into complete residential segregation at the macro level."
Basically what this means is that even if individuals or individual firms engage in a behavior that has minor negative consequences, it gets amplified at the macro level leading to huge problems.
Take the case of the recent financial meltdown from the recent past. Typically the FED works to preserve the health of the financial system and not of individual financial businesses. In fact many FED officers have publicly stated that they will allow individual institutions to fail in order to preserve the health of the financial sector. However, as we saw, a few banks "misbehaving" led to more banks "misbehavior" which in turn led to the systemic collapse of the financial sector.
What does this all mean? In complex systems, we often assume that individual actions do not have much of an effect on the entire system. This may be true in some cases and to some degree only. But, just as often, small perturbations lead to unintended and unimagined consequences. We need to be cognizant of this effect and vigilantly guard against it.
Basically what this means is that even if individuals or individual firms engage in a behavior that has minor negative consequences, it gets amplified at the macro level leading to huge problems.
Take the case of the recent financial meltdown from the recent past. Typically the FED works to preserve the health of the financial system and not of individual financial businesses. In fact many FED officers have publicly stated that they will allow individual institutions to fail in order to preserve the health of the financial sector. However, as we saw, a few banks "misbehaving" led to more banks "misbehavior" which in turn led to the systemic collapse of the financial sector.
What does this all mean? In complex systems, we often assume that individual actions do not have much of an effect on the entire system. This may be true in some cases and to some degree only. But, just as often, small perturbations lead to unintended and unimagined consequences. We need to be cognizant of this effect and vigilantly guard against it.
3
"We need to be cognizant of this effect and vigilantly guard against it."
Regardless its effect at the macro level, you can't "guard against" someone's right to freely move in or out of a neighborhood.
Regardless its effect at the macro level, you can't "guard against" someone's right to freely move in or out of a neighborhood.
1
The two proposed solutions run counter to each other. Limiting construction will raise prices, thus making efforts to ensure that new housing reflects income distribution impossible. Better to focus on genuine integration, which is more about providing jobs and community solidarity.
3
Nobody likes change, nobody. Even people who say that they do, what they really like is novelty. A changing neighborhood makes people very unhappy.
5
That depends on the change. If a run down field will be converted to wealthy mcmansions, people like it very much. That's happened a couple of times in my town, and people are ecstatic.
In the matter of why now in 2015 whites and blacks still live separately there are two completely separate issues. The 1st is in regard to whites not willing to accept purpose built projects for poor blacks in their neighborhoods. The other is the fact that blacks who pay for their own housing also live almost exclusively in black neighborhoods.
However anyone who is willing to leave the confines of the ivory tower and do their research in the real world will see that this has nothing to to with racism or segregation. In NYC any black person can buy a home or rent a home in a white neighborhood and the same is true for whites in black neighborhoods.
The reason that this does not happen is for the same reason that Koreans live among Koreans, Russians live among Russians and even Caribbeans, who are black, live in their own neighborhoods and separately from traditional African American neighborhoods. It is for the simple reason that people prefer to live among those who share a common background and culture. So segregation has nothing to do with it.
As to projects for poor blacks, the plain fact is that those projects are hotbeds and breeding grounds for gangs and criminal activity. Even within black neighborhoods gangs are all anchored in the housing projects to the extent that gangs are named after the housing projects in which they live and operate.
So while to academics the numbers are proof of racism, in realty it has nothing at all to do with either issue.
However anyone who is willing to leave the confines of the ivory tower and do their research in the real world will see that this has nothing to to with racism or segregation. In NYC any black person can buy a home or rent a home in a white neighborhood and the same is true for whites in black neighborhoods.
The reason that this does not happen is for the same reason that Koreans live among Koreans, Russians live among Russians and even Caribbeans, who are black, live in their own neighborhoods and separately from traditional African American neighborhoods. It is for the simple reason that people prefer to live among those who share a common background and culture. So segregation has nothing to do with it.
As to projects for poor blacks, the plain fact is that those projects are hotbeds and breeding grounds for gangs and criminal activity. Even within black neighborhoods gangs are all anchored in the housing projects to the extent that gangs are named after the housing projects in which they live and operate.
So while to academics the numbers are proof of racism, in realty it has nothing at all to do with either issue.
20
While there is mcuh good from the Social Democratic Welfare State Model, my take is, it has created a vast network of poverty. Poverty that traps those most in need. We have been brought up in a system, that warns us to avoid crime, drugs, and violence, stay out of certain geographic locals and neighborhoods.
7
'Just as this column began with a discussion on bussing, we should be always asking ourselves when regarding housing integration: "Won't someone think of the people thinking of their children?"'
Exactly. Back during bussing, SCJ Thurgood Marshall was taken to task for sending his children to private school. I don't have his exact quote but his reply was that he refused to apologize for looking out for the best interests of his children.
Well said, but then why should anybody else have to either?
Whether it's neighborhoods, schools, safety, crime, poverty, immigration or almost any other social concern, the people most willing to socially engineer other people's lives are the ones who live far enough away from the results of their efforts to be unaffected by them.
In court ordered bussing or neighborhood desegregation, how many members of the 'court's' family and friends have actually been affected? Few, if any. People who are not happy at having their lives socially engineered by others are then called racists, xenophobes, etc in an effort to silence and marginalize them.
Those who are affected see this clearly. This more than anything explains Donald Trump's startling rise.
Exactly. Back during bussing, SCJ Thurgood Marshall was taken to task for sending his children to private school. I don't have his exact quote but his reply was that he refused to apologize for looking out for the best interests of his children.
Well said, but then why should anybody else have to either?
Whether it's neighborhoods, schools, safety, crime, poverty, immigration or almost any other social concern, the people most willing to socially engineer other people's lives are the ones who live far enough away from the results of their efforts to be unaffected by them.
In court ordered bussing or neighborhood desegregation, how many members of the 'court's' family and friends have actually been affected? Few, if any. People who are not happy at having their lives socially engineered by others are then called racists, xenophobes, etc in an effort to silence and marginalize them.
Those who are affected see this clearly. This more than anything explains Donald Trump's startling rise.
27
"Those who are affected see this clearly. This more than anything explains Donald Trump's startling rise."
I agree &, what's more, would wager more than a few of these people are otherwise Democrats. I wouldn't vote for him in a single-candidate race, but it's obvious Trump has tapped into something here. Scary, but true nonetheless.
I agree &, what's more, would wager more than a few of these people are otherwise Democrats. I wouldn't vote for him in a single-candidate race, but it's obvious Trump has tapped into something here. Scary, but true nonetheless.
2
So the solution to "white flight" is to limit housing in the outer suburbs - so people who otherwise can move from the crime and social breakdown are essentially stuck - are you kidding me ??? Isn't this what has been practice in a communist police states?? The GOP should take note of the series of articles the NY Times has been running on this topic. It is a good perspective into what the radical left is fantasizing about - if any of this stuff gets out into the mainstream - I predict a landslide for the GOP in 2016.
14
African Americans and Hispanic Americans already outnumber whites in our most populous states—California and Texas—and will soon outnumber whites in states like Florida and New York. (Nearly 70 percent of K-12 students in California and Texas are minorities.) The U.S. Census Bureau projects that only 43.6 percent of the population will be non-Hispanic white by 2060. The white population is not evenly dispersed across the nation. There soon will no longer be enough whites left to make neighborhoods and schools predominantly white except in sparsely populated sections of the country. Isn’t it time we stop worrying about integration and segregation and start asking why mostly African American or mostly Hispanic neighborhoods and schools can’t be as good as mostly white neighborhoods? If African Americans and Hispanic Americans can only thrive in predominately white neighborhoods and if African American and Hispanics American students can only lean if seated next to blue-eye bond students, we need to revise our immigration quotas.
75
I don't want somebody living next door to me that cannot afford to live there without government mandated assistance. It's a recipe for economic disaster and falling housing prices. That combination serves nobody, and especially those of us who earned the right to buy a home in a neighborhood where we could afford to live.
96
I understand -- I really do. But as a disabled person of 60 I could not afford any housing at all without government help, and disabled old folks don't need to be consigned to the worst part of town where housing is cheapest. Senior housing and housing for disabled folks needs to be located in the safest parts of town, not the ghetto. Housing grannies with gangstas just because both lack financial resources is not a viable solution, at least not for the grannies.
Paul, how exactly did you "earn" that right? Have you ever considered that your financial well-being is partly--maybe even largely--an accident of birth? Any one of hundreds of factors--for example, catastrophic health problems, a natural disaster, a child born with special needs--could impact your or my financial stability. Or do you also have the right to be exempt from such misfortunes?
The graphic on "Progress" tells the story.
No, not the numbers.
The word "Progress."
A large proportion of Americans never believed in the concept of "Progress."
Now most Americans no longer believe in the concept of "Progress."
We Americans live in Post-History, a period in which Innovation is completely de-linked from Progress, a time when Innovation that solves no problems drives the U.S. economy, a time when Innovation depends of making and importing cheap new goods in the sweatshops of communist China, a time when the most truly innovative people on the planet are the cavemen who leader groups like ISIS, people who hope to take us all back to the Stone Age. ISIS is successfully, while we wage war on our own less fortunate citizens, because ISIS stands for something. We Americans stand for nothing.
"The end of history will be a very sad time. The struggle for recognition, the willingness to risk one's life for a purely abstract goal, the worldwide ideological struggle that called forth daring, courage, imagination, and idealism, will be replaced by economic calculation, the endless solving of technical problems, environmental concerns, and the satisfaction of sophisticated consumer demands. In the post-historical period there will be neither art nor philosophy, just the perpetual caretaking of the museum of human history,,," (p. 17)
Fukuyama, Francis. "The End of History?" The National Interest (1989): 1-19.
No, not the numbers.
The word "Progress."
A large proportion of Americans never believed in the concept of "Progress."
Now most Americans no longer believe in the concept of "Progress."
We Americans live in Post-History, a period in which Innovation is completely de-linked from Progress, a time when Innovation that solves no problems drives the U.S. economy, a time when Innovation depends of making and importing cheap new goods in the sweatshops of communist China, a time when the most truly innovative people on the planet are the cavemen who leader groups like ISIS, people who hope to take us all back to the Stone Age. ISIS is successfully, while we wage war on our own less fortunate citizens, because ISIS stands for something. We Americans stand for nothing.
"The end of history will be a very sad time. The struggle for recognition, the willingness to risk one's life for a purely abstract goal, the worldwide ideological struggle that called forth daring, courage, imagination, and idealism, will be replaced by economic calculation, the endless solving of technical problems, environmental concerns, and the satisfaction of sophisticated consumer demands. In the post-historical period there will be neither art nor philosophy, just the perpetual caretaking of the museum of human history,,," (p. 17)
Fukuyama, Francis. "The End of History?" The National Interest (1989): 1-19.
22
Mr. Adams' argument that the American people have lost their talent for innovation and their capacity to re-invent themselves looks plausible in our current environment, marked by a dysfunctional federal government and apparently deep divisions over such issues as the causes of racial conflict and the importance of growing economic inequality. The seemingly intractable problems represented by the residential segregation discussed in this op-ed piece provides specific evidence of disagreements over both of these issues.
It is worth remembering that this is not the first time the U.S. has faced challenges that threatened our well-being on a basic level. At the end of the 19th century the U.S. struggled to emerge from a severe depression, while facing long-term problems related to the political and economic dominance of a small elite that treated the working class as a disposable resource and regarded the federal government as a useful puppet. Yet, that puppet, responding to an outraged electorate, turned on its masters and reduced their power substantially, while also crafting laws that improved the lives of the working class.
A similar crisis occurred during the Great Depression, and FDR's New Deal accomplished even more in reducing the power of business leaders and improving the lives of (white) people harmed by the economic collapse.
Our current condition is no worse than these prior ones. If we fail, it will not be because we lack the capacity to succeed.
It is worth remembering that this is not the first time the U.S. has faced challenges that threatened our well-being on a basic level. At the end of the 19th century the U.S. struggled to emerge from a severe depression, while facing long-term problems related to the political and economic dominance of a small elite that treated the working class as a disposable resource and regarded the federal government as a useful puppet. Yet, that puppet, responding to an outraged electorate, turned on its masters and reduced their power substantially, while also crafting laws that improved the lives of the working class.
A similar crisis occurred during the Great Depression, and FDR's New Deal accomplished even more in reducing the power of business leaders and improving the lives of (white) people harmed by the economic collapse.
Our current condition is no worse than these prior ones. If we fail, it will not be because we lack the capacity to succeed.
Only the private economy produces actual progress, which comes in containers we call JOBS.
1
I've lived surrounded by this problem.
It is government. We made it this way. Why? Pandering to racism. Fear, of Other is fed constantly.
A key idea of desegregation was that when you get to know people, they're just people. The fear goes away. So does the political partisan advantages of pandering to it.
A separate problem is that the dumping grounds for unwanted people are hopeless places with no jobs, rampant crime, and even the police are afraid to go there. Nobody wants to be there. Nobody wants to live like that. Not even the criminals themselves want it. That too has a political core. Us vs Them, partisan advantage.
It is partisan advantage on both sides. Those who claim to represent the downtrodden are raping them every bit as much as the opposite partisans. See the Detroit Mayor and many of his gang now in jail for just that. They didn't do that in secret either, because there were far too many involved and milking it or excluded and angry at the corruption.
There was precious little place in the middle of that partisan warfare for anyone who meant well, meant to do the job as it was supposed to be.
It is government. We made it this way. Why? Pandering to racism. Fear, of Other is fed constantly.
A key idea of desegregation was that when you get to know people, they're just people. The fear goes away. So does the political partisan advantages of pandering to it.
A separate problem is that the dumping grounds for unwanted people are hopeless places with no jobs, rampant crime, and even the police are afraid to go there. Nobody wants to be there. Nobody wants to live like that. Not even the criminals themselves want it. That too has a political core. Us vs Them, partisan advantage.
It is partisan advantage on both sides. Those who claim to represent the downtrodden are raping them every bit as much as the opposite partisans. See the Detroit Mayor and many of his gang now in jail for just that. They didn't do that in secret either, because there were far too many involved and milking it or excluded and angry at the corruption.
There was precious little place in the middle of that partisan warfare for anyone who meant well, meant to do the job as it was supposed to be.
13
Pandering to racism? That has not been my experience; in fact, it has been quite the opposite, with a subset of nonwhite neighbors and some younger whites stereotyping most white people, scrutinizing every interaction for evidence of discrimination or racism or their new proxy, classism, and generally making others feel uncomfortable rather than warmly accepted as friends and neighbors. This, in addition to resistance on the part of, again, just a few, to what were once generally accepted basic standards with regard to keeping up one's property, such as mowing one's lawn, are why people of all persuasions move out of neighborhoods. No one wants to live in a place that is fraught with tension. Other reasons could include displacement from neighborhood schools, despite paying very high property tax rates to support those schools.
This article is actually a good example of skewed thinking, in noting that white people moving out of neighborhoods apparently doesn't make them less diverse. Not sure I understand that viewpoint, but the issue should be moot, since no group of persons is better or worse than another group.
Yet another factor, as reported in an NYT article just a few weeks ago, could be the reluctance of African-Americans whose fortunes have improved to move out of lower-cost neighborhoods to more expensive ones; in other words, resistance to integration by the very families it would supposedly help.
This article is actually a good example of skewed thinking, in noting that white people moving out of neighborhoods apparently doesn't make them less diverse. Not sure I understand that viewpoint, but the issue should be moot, since no group of persons is better or worse than another group.
Yet another factor, as reported in an NYT article just a few weeks ago, could be the reluctance of African-Americans whose fortunes have improved to move out of lower-cost neighborhoods to more expensive ones; in other words, resistance to integration by the very families it would supposedly help.
2
People like to be around people like themselves, and not necessarily racially. It has to do with income, class and shared lifestyle. I no more want to live next to a low income inner city housing project with all the problems like crime, gangs and drugs it brings to a neighborhood than I want to live next to a hillbilly with car parts on the front lawn.
In my apartment in Manhattan, my neighbor is black - a very senior official at the UN who is highly educated. We share the same values and lifestyle. It's an easy fit. I can tell you, she is tougher when it comes to critiquing her race than any white person I've met and is the first person to complain about black homeless sleeping on our block.
No doubt there is racism in our society, as we've all seen. But let's not attribute all social dynamics to it. Part of the issue with relocating people is that you are relocating a different lifestyle, and the lifestyles are bound to clash.
In my apartment in Manhattan, my neighbor is black - a very senior official at the UN who is highly educated. We share the same values and lifestyle. It's an easy fit. I can tell you, she is tougher when it comes to critiquing her race than any white person I've met and is the first person to complain about black homeless sleeping on our block.
No doubt there is racism in our society, as we've all seen. But let's not attribute all social dynamics to it. Part of the issue with relocating people is that you are relocating a different lifestyle, and the lifestyles are bound to clash.
65
Interestingly enough, it is people who have been poor and pulled themselves out of poverty through many years of education and hard work, who are the least sympathetic of other poor people, as they know very well why the vast majority are poor and want nothing to do with them.
It is only those who grew up in safe middle class suburbs who are taken in by the endless tales of victimhood spun by single mothers of five and the fathers of those children, men who have never worked, spent years in prison, and now live on SSDI.
It is only those who grew up in safe middle class suburbs who are taken in by the endless tales of victimhood spun by single mothers of five and the fathers of those children, men who have never worked, spent years in prison, and now live on SSDI.
4
Your quote, "In my apartment in Manhattan, my neighbor is black - a very senior official at the UN who is highly educated. We share the same values and lifestyle. It's an easy fit. I can tell you, she is tougher when it comes to critiquing her race than any white person I've met and is the first person to complain about black homeless sleeping on our block."
Are you viewed as the spokes person for your race? She is giving her personal opinions and she is not a mouth piece for her race.
Are you viewed as the spokes person for your race? She is giving her personal opinions and she is not a mouth piece for her race.
The focus of this column and the majority of studies about segregation miss some important points.
1. People should be allowed to live wherever they can afford to live, regardless of the racial mix of the neighborhood. Government should not attempt "social engineering" to change that.
2. The problems of the poor need to be addressed directly. We need more jobs and a better system of education.
3. Poor people often have the wrong values, and those values often make their situation worse. We should use education to fix those values.
4. The world is over-populated. So are our cities. We need to use education and better health care systems to reduce our population growth. The incentives for poor people to have more children are stupid. We need the opposite: incentives for poor people to have fewer children.
1. People should be allowed to live wherever they can afford to live, regardless of the racial mix of the neighborhood. Government should not attempt "social engineering" to change that.
2. The problems of the poor need to be addressed directly. We need more jobs and a better system of education.
3. Poor people often have the wrong values, and those values often make their situation worse. We should use education to fix those values.
4. The world is over-populated. So are our cities. We need to use education and better health care systems to reduce our population growth. The incentives for poor people to have more children are stupid. We need the opposite: incentives for poor people to have fewer children.
74
Fighting against racial discrimination among the parties to any part of a real estate transaction involving a rental or purchase is not "social engineering." Poor people are not primarily poor because they have the wrong values. Any more than rich people primarily owe their wealth to having the right values. What are the "right" and "wrong" values as exemplified by your "wise" choice of parents?
2
I don't foresee a large minority migration out of Bridgeport into Westport, Fairfield, Weston, and Easton. The residents will hold the line at the Housatonic River, with reserves held at the Aspetuck River.
8
Saludos Prof. Edsall, thanks for this sensitive and well researched article. Your final conclusion- that optimism is not illogical re this situation is welcome and, from my point of view, based upon experience, well justified.
We here have seen these demographic, social-economic forces at work within the central Mississippi residential areas for generations now.
We have observed the "white flight" phenomenon, the devaluation of the older, once high-quality residential areas and the construction of the new, upper middle-class neighborhoods complete with their enforceable covenants. Your cited example of Marin county, a world away from central Mississippi, shows what has happened here in a de facto form. Hazarding here a generality from observance, many of these white upper middle-class residents don't really care if their neighbor is black. He obviously could afford to buy the rather expensive home, and can afford to maintain it in accordance with the covenants, so there is no problem. I have been pleased to see some real social integration resulting from these economic advances as well. It takes time- generations- for this type of change to happen as education brings better employment, income and social integration.
We here have seen these demographic, social-economic forces at work within the central Mississippi residential areas for generations now.
We have observed the "white flight" phenomenon, the devaluation of the older, once high-quality residential areas and the construction of the new, upper middle-class neighborhoods complete with their enforceable covenants. Your cited example of Marin county, a world away from central Mississippi, shows what has happened here in a de facto form. Hazarding here a generality from observance, many of these white upper middle-class residents don't really care if their neighbor is black. He obviously could afford to buy the rather expensive home, and can afford to maintain it in accordance with the covenants, so there is no problem. I have been pleased to see some real social integration resulting from these economic advances as well. It takes time- generations- for this type of change to happen as education brings better employment, income and social integration.
10
I agree with Mr. Edsall's conclusion that solutions "...requiring aggressive intervention.. are hard to bring about in the absence of a national consensus." I fear that our current political discourse and current election coverage is working against a national consensus on this issue. We need to push candidates to describe how they plan to address resegregation and inequality and shine light on ideas--- like border walls--- that effectively promote steps in the opposite direction.
2
....which begs the question of whether in our current political discourse we can reach a national consensus about anything at all!
"...there are grounds for optimism..." Isn't that a mark of humanity? Optimism? But racial justice comes dropping slow. In a country that prides itself on being more religious than most, one wonders what all those priests and pastors do an Sundays besides pass the collection plate. (The majority of white ministers of religion are knowingly or unknowingly quite racist. Some use John Calvin to justify their bigotry; others use John Knox.)
The blame lies in our tribal human genes, which evolved over millennia to defend the pack or tribe against the "other." As the tree grows, so shall it fall. Unless America finds a way to retreat from its progressive divisions and individualism, we are programmed to fail as a society. We need to stop breeding greedy, selfish, arrogant people. A society that can't respect itself respects no one.
The blame lies in our tribal human genes, which evolved over millennia to defend the pack or tribe against the "other." As the tree grows, so shall it fall. Unless America finds a way to retreat from its progressive divisions and individualism, we are programmed to fail as a society. We need to stop breeding greedy, selfish, arrogant people. A society that can't respect itself respects no one.
3
In the late 70's, Sheepshead Bay HS received several busses a day from, literally, the other side of the borough. It still does. I apologize to them that nothing has changed when I take the Nostrand Ave bus.
But there's no one to blame; my Black classmates were just as hostile as the others and in my three years, none showed me anything but indifference. I made lots of unusual friends there, but only a Black literally turned her face away from my attempt to get to know her better.
But there's no one to blame; my Black classmates were just as hostile as the others and in my three years, none showed me anything but indifference. I made lots of unusual friends there, but only a Black literally turned her face away from my attempt to get to know her better.
18
Open, public discussions of race degenerate in fighting within 5 minutes.
7
Five minutes? You are too kind.
1
It seems to me, that rather than parse over whether or not to integrate schools, why not bring economic stability to the neighborhoods where the poor schools exist? Blighted neighborhoods presently have much in common. Transportation is poor, whether public or private, job hours are not regular, shopping is nearly non existent of any quality, particularly grocery stores, and housing is delapidated. Poor schools follow because the neighborhood is cut off from economic opportunity. We need a national program to revive and update infrastructure, with special emphasis on the blighted neighborhoods.
34
I would hope that after enough time and failed experiments, we would come to agree on the conclusion that forcibly integrated housing does not work. It strips and reminds people of a basic tenant of the American Dream: you can't choose your neighbors, but you at least you can choose your neighborhood. When the state squares off against the rich, the rich may win, the state may win, but the poor often lose. If you can afford to live in most places and don't like what's happening to your neighborhood, you will move. If you live in a nice neighborhood - especially if you have kids - and see undesirable residents moving in by choice or government decree, you will move. If you grew up in the slums and managed to move up the economic ladder enough to provide a safer environment for your kids, you will move.
Just as this column began with a discussion on bussing, we should be always asking ourselves when regarding housing integration: "Won't someone think of the people thinking of their children?"
Just as this column began with a discussion on bussing, we should be always asking ourselves when regarding housing integration: "Won't someone think of the people thinking of their children?"
42
This article is routed in recent published research, referrenced numerous times in the Times, that has found benefits to children when their families move to better neighborhoods. People are thinking about their children and other people's children.
Why would anyone be surprised that a "bastion of Democratic liberalism" protested proposals to build affordable housing. Even liberals have common sense. If you put affordable housing in a good neighborhood, property values go down and all the ills of the inner city enter; the unstable families, the crime and violence, the gangs and the unsafe streets. Our government should not be able to dictate where we can live or who our neighbors should be.
72
It is not a question of liberals and or democrats , in the south there is as much as poor illiterate white thrash and red necks as poor blacks and other minorities with lifestyles worst then animals. One too many of them ingrained white supremacists, child molesters, bigots and racists , who still indulge in incest. Just like the Duggers in AR with the likes of Horny Toad Jim Bob and his hussy of a evangelical hypocrite right wing wife , who are friends of freaking Huckabee and his kind of bigotry / racism and perversity of inequality.
1
It's an income thing as much as a minority thing. If you suddenly have an affordable housing development or an influx of neighbors that have different cultural values or behaviors, you're going to feel that the neighborhood is changing, maybe to the worse. And when their are police incidents at those places, the perception of fear enters the equation.
How about the government STOP trying to social engineer policies that have unintended consequences they can't even think of? Why not provide the education, support and attention to the poor communities to begin with? The current policy and stated goals of this article are to use the same old, largely unsuccessful policies to move the problems to someplace else, without addressing the root causes of the problems. The problem is a lack of jobs and opportunities to allow the residents to start on a path of self-reliance and entry into the working world of bosses, budgets, less babies, and social integration.
Whether it is in integrating a community, or assimilating refugees, the people moving in have to WANT to do better. And that's not guaranteed. Hence the failures and problems with this type of solution.
How about the government STOP trying to social engineer policies that have unintended consequences they can't even think of? Why not provide the education, support and attention to the poor communities to begin with? The current policy and stated goals of this article are to use the same old, largely unsuccessful policies to move the problems to someplace else, without addressing the root causes of the problems. The problem is a lack of jobs and opportunities to allow the residents to start on a path of self-reliance and entry into the working world of bosses, budgets, less babies, and social integration.
Whether it is in integrating a community, or assimilating refugees, the people moving in have to WANT to do better. And that's not guaranteed. Hence the failures and problems with this type of solution.
145
"Why not provide the education, support and attention to the poor communities to begin with?" Simple: It would cost money. A substantial portion of our government firmly believes that spending money on poor people leads to sloth, dependence and avoidance of paying work. (Whereas spending money on rich people leads to entrepreneurship, thrift and hard work.)
23
That is such a tired old trope. We have spent billions in the 'war-on-poverty' and what do we have to show for it? Just about as much as the 'war-on-drugs'. We have safety net to help people when they need it, but we don't want people to need it forever. Many problems are cultural in nature, like showing up for a job on time, having a good attitude, dressing correctly and most importantly, staying in school and not having children before your education is complete. Our public schools in inner cities are a mess, but not because they don't get enough money, we literally throw money at them. These are all democratic strongholds, so no blaming those evil republicans. Once you start to follow the money you get a better idea of why they are so bad. Here in my neighborhood we have all races and ethnicities, but culturally we share the same values. The kids are good and go to school, the lawns are cut and kept neat, there are no loud parties or troublesome 'youth'. Most of us worked very hard to get here and we don't demonize those who have less than us, many of us were there in the past. However, we are paying with our taXes for the less well off to live, and we are tired of hearing how we are not doing enough.
16
The same nativist xenophobic attitudes were directed at the white European Jewish and Catholic Eastern and Southern horde that descended upon America between 1880-1917 before quotas were imposed by the government. Quotas that favored white Protestant Americans from North and Western Europe lasted until the Johnson administration pushed through immigration reforms.
1
This article misses the point. I happen to live in a stable, integrated area. It is been like this for a long time. My complex is also integrated. I would guess it is 40% white, 40% black and 20% Latino. Mostly working class, some military. It is older but relatively well run by a decent management company. The complex does not accept section 8. There are some section 8 complexes in the general area. A few of of them seem fine, others are more obviously rundown and seem to be the scene of more crime as they are frequently mentioned in the newspaper or are on the TV news. Most working and middle class people are looking for safe housing and educational opportunity for their children. No parent who has a choice and is active in the lives of their children will enroll their children in schools that are disorderly, where there are gangs or where there is no parent involvement. Mostly, they are more interested in test scores than racial composition.
Mr. Edsel seems to imply that the working and lower middle class should once again bear the burden of uplifting the poor. When Greenwich and Scarsdale build significant amounts of affordable housing, their liberal residents can lecture everyone else. The federal government has already tried social engineering to improve racial balance. It is called bussing and it didn't work. While there is still racial discrimination, class is now more important. Forced "integration" will not work here either.
Mr. Edsel seems to imply that the working and lower middle class should once again bear the burden of uplifting the poor. When Greenwich and Scarsdale build significant amounts of affordable housing, their liberal residents can lecture everyone else. The federal government has already tried social engineering to improve racial balance. It is called bussing and it didn't work. While there is still racial discrimination, class is now more important. Forced "integration" will not work here either.
97
Thank you for this insightful and well researched piece. It is like a breath of fresh air to hear an analysis that acknowledges the significant progress that America has made.
1
Blacks are more likely to engage in flight than whites. Its black flight that sets white flight in motion. Mr. Edsell Notes that whites are more likely to live with black neighbors today than 30 years ago; this means whites stay put until what? I would argue that whites stay put until property values decline, schools decline and crime goes up. Its quality of life not racism. Black flight out of Detroit is not because they are racist, they are moving out for better schools, less crime and more opportunity.
53
If the goal is to create more 'projects' in middle class neighborhoods then there will be a lot of resistance. People in many middle class neighborhoods usually don't seem to mind when Indians and Asians move in, actually anyone who can afford the typical price of a house in the neighborhood, as the price of typical housing serves as a kind of screening. That is why people don't like too many rentals in a neighborhood, as unchecked it can result in the perceived degradation of the area. Concerns arise when subsidized housing with little or no screening of applicants is to be placed in a neighborhood, and one sees an uptick in crime, perhaps graffiti, and more 'disturbances' in what are usually quiet locations. Address the crime and other issues and there will be much less resistance to placing affordable housing in neighborhoods.
Can you blame people? They work hard to make a better life for their families, so why should they have to put up with problems that they read about and don't want to have to face shoved in their face?
Can you blame people? They work hard to make a better life for their families, so why should they have to put up with problems that they read about and don't want to have to face shoved in their face?
206
Blame them? A little. They live in subsidized housing if they take a mortgage interest deduction. Those renters, they don't get that benefit, and your mortgage is private contract between you and your broker. Obviously, the government is incentivizing certain behaviors through subsidy.
Socialism brings the highways and supporting infrastructure to housing tracts and office parks. I've never seen a public bus drop off workers at the glass buildings in suburban central N.J. But I've seen some pretty lonely looking bus stop signs.
Consumer society is driven by the housing market (capital accumulation spent on home equity loans; the cost of secondary products like appliances and the cars to drive those highways). Government is the biggest player in the mortgage market (to positive net effect since 1938), and subsidizes the whole
project.
The other half of the equation is the social control (housing discrimination, police, prisons, limited public transportation to other neighborhoods) that keeps out the unwanted, and keeps them penned up and capital poor.
The idea of that there is a fair market price "earned" by those who buy in your neighborhood is the greatest fiction in American history.
Socialism brings the highways and supporting infrastructure to housing tracts and office parks. I've never seen a public bus drop off workers at the glass buildings in suburban central N.J. But I've seen some pretty lonely looking bus stop signs.
Consumer society is driven by the housing market (capital accumulation spent on home equity loans; the cost of secondary products like appliances and the cars to drive those highways). Government is the biggest player in the mortgage market (to positive net effect since 1938), and subsidizes the whole
project.
The other half of the equation is the social control (housing discrimination, police, prisons, limited public transportation to other neighborhoods) that keeps out the unwanted, and keeps them penned up and capital poor.
The idea of that there is a fair market price "earned" by those who buy in your neighborhood is the greatest fiction in American history.
4
I understand the reticence to deal with "those people" but if you think you can live somewhere and not have your neighbors problems become at least partly yours sooner or later you're living in denial. And by neighbor I mean fellow human-being pretty much anywhere on the same planet.
1
Jack: The mortgage deduction is a far cry from subsidized housing. The deduction is an incentive to take on the risk of home ownership. the value of owner-occupied communities alone justifies the lost tax revenue because of the deduction. On the other hand, I see no reason to claim that residents of a neighborhood should be burden with poor citizens with their attendant problems just because the mortgage deduction exists. That is a convoluted logic even worse than the implication that "socialism" creates highways (clearly you have no idea what socialism is, as a political philosophy.
5
The argument that taxpayers subsidize white flight from cities and metropolitan areas to exclusionary suburbs is based on specious reasoning.
Why?
Because the taxpayers by and large are the middle class whites who have left the cities to build a better quality of life for their families. In other words, the taxpayer funded infrastructures of roads, schools and so on are funded by the taxpaying citizens. The poor are not the taxpaying citizens. Are not the taxpaying citizens entitled to some of the benefits of their taxes or are taxes raised only to benefit the poor?
Does the requirement for single family homes that does not permit higher density, low rent apartments mean that such zoning is designed to exclude racial groups? Or does it mean that the people who live in single family neighborhoods with larger lot sizes want to live with more privacy, less noise, less trash, less crime than they'd otherwise confront in higher density neighborhoods?
What makes a superior school system? If you research the data on per pupil spending, you will find that the public K-12 systems are, on average, the same or higher in metro areas than in the suburbs. NY, Washington, Chicago which have concentrated poverty also have some of the highest rates of per pupil, tax payer funding.
The issue of concentrated poverty is complex, to be sure. But any discussion that focuses solely on white flight as the cause and ignores the lifestyles and culture of the poor is specious.
Why?
Because the taxpayers by and large are the middle class whites who have left the cities to build a better quality of life for their families. In other words, the taxpayer funded infrastructures of roads, schools and so on are funded by the taxpaying citizens. The poor are not the taxpaying citizens. Are not the taxpaying citizens entitled to some of the benefits of their taxes or are taxes raised only to benefit the poor?
Does the requirement for single family homes that does not permit higher density, low rent apartments mean that such zoning is designed to exclude racial groups? Or does it mean that the people who live in single family neighborhoods with larger lot sizes want to live with more privacy, less noise, less trash, less crime than they'd otherwise confront in higher density neighborhoods?
What makes a superior school system? If you research the data on per pupil spending, you will find that the public K-12 systems are, on average, the same or higher in metro areas than in the suburbs. NY, Washington, Chicago which have concentrated poverty also have some of the highest rates of per pupil, tax payer funding.
The issue of concentrated poverty is complex, to be sure. But any discussion that focuses solely on white flight as the cause and ignores the lifestyles and culture of the poor is specious.
53
After a desegregation order in my city, half of the white families on our blue-collar block moved in a single year to the suburbs. It was 1970, and within 5 years it had become a crime-ridden poor neighborhood. It might have stabilized without forced busing. That, not more black neighbors, triggered the mass exodus of working class whites. For Richmond, busing was the worst self-inflicted disaster since the 1865 Evacuation Fire. It took 40 years to make our city vital again downtown. We could have ended up like Detroit. Sadly, the city's public schools, or more precisely the entrenched administration of them despite good teaching, still drive families of all races to the counties. My town now seems full of Millennial hipsters with more tattoos than kids.
69
"Vital again downtown" is the battle cry of every modern mayor and the war plan of leaders like Tom Bradley in L.A. and Daley I and Daley Redux in Chicago. LA pretty much invented the TIF (tax increment financing) to subsidize the mess LA made out of Bunker Hill. And Richie Daley has used the TIF to great effect as well. And Baltimore Inner Harbor is the the public-private growth machine perfected.
But where do the little kids go when they tear down Cabrini Green? The Frank Gehry bandshell in Millennium Park? Not usually. The outer neighborhoods on the West Side like Austin (two miles from my old place). God-forsaken zones that can't even scare up a brand-name fast-food place.
Fine, if the suburbs for the "hard working" are off limits for the refugees of Cabrini Green, at least let activist mayors like de Blasio work in the spirit of Harold Washington and Ray Flynn and get his 50,000 units of decent housing, and stop the begging for poor doors with $1,300 a month studio apartments on the other side.
Hipsters in lofts downtown and kids shooting kids two miles away is evil, plain and simple.
But where do the little kids go when they tear down Cabrini Green? The Frank Gehry bandshell in Millennium Park? Not usually. The outer neighborhoods on the West Side like Austin (two miles from my old place). God-forsaken zones that can't even scare up a brand-name fast-food place.
Fine, if the suburbs for the "hard working" are off limits for the refugees of Cabrini Green, at least let activist mayors like de Blasio work in the spirit of Harold Washington and Ray Flynn and get his 50,000 units of decent housing, and stop the begging for poor doors with $1,300 a month studio apartments on the other side.
Hipsters in lofts downtown and kids shooting kids two miles away is evil, plain and simple.
Good article. Housing integration really is the key, though whether you need increased zoning regulation or increased individual incentives or both to offset individual preferences remains to be seen. New York and other northeastern cities may want to take some lessons from Washington, D.C. and its suburbs.
There, an emphasis on affordable housing has produced more diverse suburbs and an increasingly gentrified inner city.
There, an emphasis on affordable housing has produced more diverse suburbs and an increasingly gentrified inner city.
3
Our most important resources is our people. Someone who has a good job, not only produces stuff, but spends his income which provides income for others. Your spending in my income. He also pays taxes and fees to support needed government services.
Stephanie Kelton, the chief economic adviser to Bernie Sanders, has proposed that the federal government provide a decent job or paid training for such a job to every person able to work. This would allow us to reduce many forms of welfare assistance. You can look up her figures to see this would benefit the country as a whole. It would go a long way in solving the problems Edsall talks about
There are many jobs such as fixing roads and bridges, education research, designing and building a new power grid, etc that could provide the work and have tremendous long term value to the economy. Think interstate highways.
I realize that the solution is too simple and straight forward for politicians and main street economists, but I think Bill Occam's barber would like it.
PS Look at the first 13 slides at
http://www.slideshare.net/MitchGreen/its-what-you-know-for-sure-that-jus...
You might learn something from the rest also.
Stephanie Kelton, the chief economic adviser to Bernie Sanders, has proposed that the federal government provide a decent job or paid training for such a job to every person able to work. This would allow us to reduce many forms of welfare assistance. You can look up her figures to see this would benefit the country as a whole. It would go a long way in solving the problems Edsall talks about
There are many jobs such as fixing roads and bridges, education research, designing and building a new power grid, etc that could provide the work and have tremendous long term value to the economy. Think interstate highways.
I realize that the solution is too simple and straight forward for politicians and main street economists, but I think Bill Occam's barber would like it.
PS Look at the first 13 slides at
http://www.slideshare.net/MitchGreen/its-what-you-know-for-sure-that-jus...
You might learn something from the rest also.
14
@ Len Charlap - Len, not only Occams Barber but even I like it. Since I have just returned from spending most of my US time in Vermont the possibilities are so obvious it is clear that only a politician could miss them.
Here in my part of Sweden it is truly extraordinary how many of the roads have been perfectly resurfaced. Vermont was doing much better than expected but still. Here ground source geothermal heat pump (GSG) and air-air, air-water heat pump tech are going strong. GSG is in process at Champlain College and Saint Michaels College and Vietnam Memorial Welcome Center but should be everywhere. Many work at 6-day a week recycling centers that are best in world. Adopting High-Tech incineration of MSW would put many to work and the energy produced would lessen coal-oil use. Creating Swedish style 1 lane/2 lane highways would save lots of lives (cannot explain here).
My last bus in US was PeterPan Albany to Boston on the terrible surface of the Mass Tpike and my first here was Bus4You on the fine surface of E4 - what a contrast both inside the bus and on the road.
Will look at the slides too.
Sweden is, however, not as good at putting everyone to work as it should be, and that is, sad to say, especially true for refugees.
Larry
Here in my part of Sweden it is truly extraordinary how many of the roads have been perfectly resurfaced. Vermont was doing much better than expected but still. Here ground source geothermal heat pump (GSG) and air-air, air-water heat pump tech are going strong. GSG is in process at Champlain College and Saint Michaels College and Vietnam Memorial Welcome Center but should be everywhere. Many work at 6-day a week recycling centers that are best in world. Adopting High-Tech incineration of MSW would put many to work and the energy produced would lessen coal-oil use. Creating Swedish style 1 lane/2 lane highways would save lots of lives (cannot explain here).
My last bus in US was PeterPan Albany to Boston on the terrible surface of the Mass Tpike and my first here was Bus4You on the fine surface of E4 - what a contrast both inside the bus and on the road.
Will look at the slides too.
Sweden is, however, not as good at putting everyone to work as it should be, and that is, sad to say, especially true for refugees.
Larry
3
Len, once again you are the voice of reason.
Our wealth is our economic output. Idle workers don't produce anything; keeping them fed and housed is just a drain. So as long as we devote resources to keeping them alive and housed anyway, smart gov't should put them to work, and get something out of it. Since it grows the economy the gov't should avoid the anti-tax zealots and just print the money for this - it won't be inflationary. This is low-hanging fruit here folks.
Once people have jobs their home communities will improve somewhat because they'll all have skin in the game of keeping it nice. Once that occurs integration is more feasible because people from the ghetto won't seem so different.
It can't go unacknowledged that there is a real and severe problem of entrenched racism against blacks in particular in this country. White people have varying levels of discomfort with all other races, but to lump all non-whites together is not reflective of reality. The sad fact is that racist whites are most racist - by a long shot - against blacks.
Our wealth is our economic output. Idle workers don't produce anything; keeping them fed and housed is just a drain. So as long as we devote resources to keeping them alive and housed anyway, smart gov't should put them to work, and get something out of it. Since it grows the economy the gov't should avoid the anti-tax zealots and just print the money for this - it won't be inflationary. This is low-hanging fruit here folks.
Once people have jobs their home communities will improve somewhat because they'll all have skin in the game of keeping it nice. Once that occurs integration is more feasible because people from the ghetto won't seem so different.
It can't go unacknowledged that there is a real and severe problem of entrenched racism against blacks in particular in this country. White people have varying levels of discomfort with all other races, but to lump all non-whites together is not reflective of reality. The sad fact is that racist whites are most racist - by a long shot - against blacks.
3
Taxing and spending the economy up to full employment is Keynesian heresy.
1
Is the goal elimination or at least a sharp reducton of poverty, or is it that we all live together signing kumbaya? If the former, and if we choose to adopt Proftessor Jergowsky's approach of mandating how each of us lives, then the answer is quite simple: since only one in nine black families in a two parent household lives in poverty, the governmnent must mandate that every adult of any race over age 25 gets married. I assure you that this would be no more difficult to impose than mandating the type of controls of construction that he urges.
24
Why is everything discussed in terms of race? I know that if I was moving somewhere in a different state or somewhere I was not familiar with the area, I would look up crime statistics to determine where to buy a home I could afford. It may be that there are racial differences in high and low crime areas, but I do not look up demographics, just crime rates. I do not care what color any of my neighbors are. I want to know that if I accidentally forgot to close my garage door one night, all of my stuff will be there in the morning.
Why is it that the article only focuses on one factor (race) when discussing people leaving neighborhoods? In their analysis did they control for crime rates? One thing that I love about statistics is that you can make them tell you anything you want. In the case of this article, the statistics they give are very convincing, but I it appears that the only variable that they considered was race.
Why is it that the article only focuses on one factor (race) when discussing people leaving neighborhoods? In their analysis did they control for crime rates? One thing that I love about statistics is that you can make them tell you anything you want. In the case of this article, the statistics they give are very convincing, but I it appears that the only variable that they considered was race.
166
There are plenty of good reasons to include race in any discussion of housing, crime, education, jobs, police behavior-the list can go on and on. Racism is the reason for inclusion in discussions. It exists, it damages and corrodes us all.
Failures to address it are no reason to quit trying. Keeping our heads in the sand doesn't help either.
Failures to address it are no reason to quit trying. Keeping our heads in the sand doesn't help either.
1
Because you are confusing and conflating race as in biologically human with race as in colored by American socioeconomic political educational enslavement and Jim Crow history.
Since there is only one race-human- there are no relevant other variables when it comes to that issue. Color as in colored black or white is not about race. It is a euphemism for white supremacist racist bigoted attitudes that presume a causal correlation between color and other stereotypical factors. Like a unique innate black sloth, ignorance, immorality and violent criminality.
Since there is only one race-human- there are no relevant other variables when it comes to that issue. Color as in colored black or white is not about race. It is a euphemism for white supremacist racist bigoted attitudes that presume a causal correlation between color and other stereotypical factors. Like a unique innate black sloth, ignorance, immorality and violent criminality.
2
Most articles I see on this topic advocate that minorities move to majority-white neighborhoods, rather than advocating that white people move to neighborhoods where populations are weighted toward minority residents. When the latter happens, many people deride it as "gentrifiction." I don't understand why one is better than the other.
49
We need to help poor communities gentrify in place, with the same people living there. Bernie Sanders advocates a decent minimum wage, stronger unions, and massive, infrastructure-building jobs programs, which could bring stability to neighborhoods that are currently poor. He also wants free public universities funded by taxes on Wall Street. I assume he wants equitable funding of elementary and high schools too. If the problems of poverty are addressed directly, it won't be necessary to move them from one neighborhood to another.
Martha, government money & education reform won't bring stability to these neighborhoods. What will is too politically incorrect for us, as a society, to admit, much less, tackle. Hence, the cycle continues..
3
Adding to Detroit's problem is geography. The city itself is 134 square miles. That is larger than Manhattan, San Francisco, Boston combined. Add on the suburbs and you have a situation where no parent, black, white or other wants their child on a bus two hours each day going too and from school. Detroiters just want better schools.
The sad part is Detroit had the assets to fix the problem but they were needlessly taken away during bankruptcy. Here is a quick overview of reality when it comes to the bankrptcy's result. The Governor is the blame
... http://lstrn.us/1NjZgPz
The sad part is Detroit had the assets to fix the problem but they were needlessly taken away during bankruptcy. Here is a quick overview of reality when it comes to the bankrptcy's result. The Governor is the blame
... http://lstrn.us/1NjZgPz
6
" Similarly, an all-black neighborhood may be tipped into an all-white neighborhood . . ." It's called gentrification, but it' not 'similarly' at all. Black people don't mind at all if white families move into their neighborhood. White families do mind if black families move into their neighborhood. That one sentence fragment is a little puzzling and wish Edsall would clarify it. Otherwise, his essay is insightful. He's one of the NYTimes' best columnists.
10
"Black people don't mind at all if white families move into their neighborhood.'
Yes, they do because then prices for everything in the neighborhood go up.
Yes, they do because then prices for everything in the neighborhood go up.
5
There is plenty of angst over gentrification, mainly from those residents who complain that either rents are going up or that the neighborhood "just isn't the same."
3
Black people certainly complain about what they call gentrification -- which of course is ironic, since in Brooklyn at least most neighborhoods were white or mixed and then went wholly black only in the 1970s when subsidized housing destroyed those areas.
Now white (and middle-class blacks) are moving back in and tidying up old buildings that have seen much better days, and those on subsidies are shouting about it.
Some here in Flatbush are even scrawling pretty ugly anti-white graffiti on subway station walls.
Funny, the whole time I was growing up, I never saw anti-black graffiti. Go figure.
Now white (and middle-class blacks) are moving back in and tidying up old buildings that have seen much better days, and those on subsidies are shouting about it.
Some here in Flatbush are even scrawling pretty ugly anti-white graffiti on subway station walls.
Funny, the whole time I was growing up, I never saw anti-black graffiti. Go figure.
2
Neighborhoods will integrate, economically and racially, when people view others by criteria of civility over other factors.
8
"Neighborhoods will integrate, economically and racially, when people view others by criteria of civility over other factors."
So never.
Consider an ISIS fighter who is fighting to re-create the Dark Ages on earth to a American soldier who is (nominally) fighting to protect freedom and democracy (I say nominally because usually he or she is fighting to protect corporate profits more than anything else).
The ISIS fighter believes that if he or she dies a martyr, he or she will wake up in heaven in the presence of God.
The American soldier will give her or his life for country, and especially for a comrade. But the objective is to come home alive. And if that American soldier is wounded, he or she may be stuck in an underfunded VA facility with inadequate care...if he or she is lucky...because the U.S. Congress refuses to take care of our veterans. In fact, many of the less lucky veterans are homeless people who "litter" our street.
Americans consider almost all collectivism to be a form of communism, or something that almost always works against the individual. We value the right to own a gun, which implies the right to use that gun to kill someone, more than we value the safety of our own children. Like Europe under the tidal wave of refugees today, someday we will pay dearly for our lack of foresight and compassion and belief in "Progress" as defining values.
So never.
Consider an ISIS fighter who is fighting to re-create the Dark Ages on earth to a American soldier who is (nominally) fighting to protect freedom and democracy (I say nominally because usually he or she is fighting to protect corporate profits more than anything else).
The ISIS fighter believes that if he or she dies a martyr, he or she will wake up in heaven in the presence of God.
The American soldier will give her or his life for country, and especially for a comrade. But the objective is to come home alive. And if that American soldier is wounded, he or she may be stuck in an underfunded VA facility with inadequate care...if he or she is lucky...because the U.S. Congress refuses to take care of our veterans. In fact, many of the less lucky veterans are homeless people who "litter" our street.
Americans consider almost all collectivism to be a form of communism, or something that almost always works against the individual. We value the right to own a gun, which implies the right to use that gun to kill someone, more than we value the safety of our own children. Like Europe under the tidal wave of refugees today, someday we will pay dearly for our lack of foresight and compassion and belief in "Progress" as defining values.
It probably only takes a few percent of persistent litterers to make a whole neighborhood persistently littered. Frustration is contagious.
26
This is a fascinating article not least because it draws on research and presents data (See Public Editor's recent blog post). I intend to re-read carefully and go to its sources since the research seems to bear on a question I raised in a comment based on my recent stay in the Madison Avenue neighborhood in Albany, NY and on my familiarity with named neighborhoods around me here in Linköping, Sweden.
The Madison Avenue neighborhood is truly notable for the apparent extent to which people of varying skin colors are mixed and even at different economic levels. My home base for observation was Tierra Coffee Roasters where I could talk with customers and then wander the streets to see more.
So my question for researchers and residents is: What has made this possible? To me it looks like the ideal we should work to realize.
Then back in Sweden my neighborhood borders three named areas: Ryd, Lambohov, Skäggetorp. Every one of these has a mixture of ethnic Swedes and refugees and I am guessing that each could be ranked as concerns economic status and education level of those living in each. My refugee friends seemingly were placed in these neighborhoods during the stage or stages when they are being helped economically.
So this leads to a question similar to the Madison Avenue question: What are the policies and practices that result in this integration?
Only-NeverInSweden.blogspot.com
Dual citizen-USA-SE
The Madison Avenue neighborhood is truly notable for the apparent extent to which people of varying skin colors are mixed and even at different economic levels. My home base for observation was Tierra Coffee Roasters where I could talk with customers and then wander the streets to see more.
So my question for researchers and residents is: What has made this possible? To me it looks like the ideal we should work to realize.
Then back in Sweden my neighborhood borders three named areas: Ryd, Lambohov, Skäggetorp. Every one of these has a mixture of ethnic Swedes and refugees and I am guessing that each could be ranked as concerns economic status and education level of those living in each. My refugee friends seemingly were placed in these neighborhoods during the stage or stages when they are being helped economically.
So this leads to a question similar to the Madison Avenue question: What are the policies and practices that result in this integration?
Only-NeverInSweden.blogspot.com
Dual citizen-USA-SE
3
Sweden VS USA? Apples Vs Oranges? The US has always been a country of immigrants, each wave spreading out over the plains or building cities. "Always" is a large word for that, compared to the short time scale involved. The Battle of Lund, fought in 1676, reckoned to be the bloodiest such battle in Europe to that time, but it was also the last battle between those neighbors. Scandinavians in situ were working on civilization long before the US was born. Modern migration has upset the balance in Sweden, but at least there is some basic ethos for the grafting of the new on to the old. America has never stopped long enough to take stock of itself in the midst of its striving to power and wealth.
1
It’s amazing to realize that all of this complex history recounted in this column stems from 1 thing—that the races have different skin color.
Their different physical appearance is the basis for different treatment over time, for bias, hostility and suspicion. Yet the physical differences of races have no innate link to anything else about them, in terms of behavior, intelligence, character. The different appearance, seen quickly from a distance, has set in motion the entire apartheid of our society in economics and justice. And it’s all based on an illusion.
Grounds for optimism? List them, and compare to the grounds for pessimism. What’s worsening our racial relations is the Gop rw dominance of our economy and lawmaking, increasing poverty, and middle class insecurity, blocking upward mobility. In more liberal and just past decades, the black middle class could flourish more securely.
Their different physical appearance is the basis for different treatment over time, for bias, hostility and suspicion. Yet the physical differences of races have no innate link to anything else about them, in terms of behavior, intelligence, character. The different appearance, seen quickly from a distance, has set in motion the entire apartheid of our society in economics and justice. And it’s all based on an illusion.
Grounds for optimism? List them, and compare to the grounds for pessimism. What’s worsening our racial relations is the Gop rw dominance of our economy and lawmaking, increasing poverty, and middle class insecurity, blocking upward mobility. In more liberal and just past decades, the black middle class could flourish more securely.
4
As many Germans suffer the guilty memories of the Stalag and oven, so many Americans bear the guilt, often unconsciously, of slavery. Skin color had little to do with choice of people exploitable as slaves. Vikings sold slaves from Ireland and Britain. Cromwell sold slaves from Ireland.
1
Slavery always existed. Through history it was common for European victors in war to enslave the losers. They were all the same race. They hadn’t brought Africans over to Europe as slaves. The mass of people in most societies worked for the top few, with no individual rights of their own. And Africa had slavery among its people like elsewhere.
The point is that being of the same color means it’s easier to achieve integration and equality for the mass of people as individual rights and democracy were achieved. One blockage is removed.
Now we are in 21st century America, with it’s long traditions of freedom from tyranny, Const./b. of rights. Contradiction.
The point is that being of the same color means it’s easier to achieve integration and equality for the mass of people as individual rights and democracy were achieved. One blockage is removed.
Now we are in 21st century America, with it’s long traditions of freedom from tyranny, Const./b. of rights. Contradiction.
Let's follow the President's example. Where does he live? Where do his to daughters go to school? Where does he work? Where does he vacation?
68
Exactly the same as Bush, Clinton, etc. etc. - so why do you think it should be different for this President?
9
He vacations in a place that is fairly well integrated by both class and race.
9
His permanent home is in Kenwood on the south side of Chicago. I used to live Woodlawn, not too far from there. I would recommend that you 'follow his example;' you should move there and also you should get out and meet the neighbors.
2
If one part of the solution is to move poor people into middle class neighborhoods, the other part is to hold onto middle class neighborhoods, especially integrated ones.
New York City has lost 40% of its middle class neighborhoods, including white, integrated, and black, over the past 15 years. Middle class and upper middle class blacks continue to leave, and are being replaced by the poor.
Strong middle class neighborhoods in or near cities, especially ones that are already integrated, must be seen as valuable in themselves, and not be allowed to disappear. Unfortunately, this loss is often ignored.
New York City has lost 40% of its middle class neighborhoods, including white, integrated, and black, over the past 15 years. Middle class and upper middle class blacks continue to leave, and are being replaced by the poor.
Strong middle class neighborhoods in or near cities, especially ones that are already integrated, must be seen as valuable in themselves, and not be allowed to disappear. Unfortunately, this loss is often ignored.
52
Sigh. Brooklyn was largely middle class (of varying sorts -- upper, middle, lower) and working class when I was a child and before that.
Middle-class neighborhoods became poor neighborhoods when Section-8 housing took hold of a few buildings, and just enough families whose behavior was intolerable drove away former long-time residents.
Because poor people tend to have more babies -- and especially now that we reward that behavior with ever-larger apartments and more funding -- more buildings began to have more poor people living in them. Over fifty years, that's a lot of buildings that have, of necessity, had to be given over to poor, large families headed by single women.
The middle classes moved out of certain neighborhoods; they held on to others. In Flatbush, formerly lovely pre-war apartments have grown men spilling out of the majestic entranceways at all hours of the day and night. Yes, I know, they need jobs. But it would have helped if their mothers had had fewer babies, nurtured and taught the ones they had, and made their kids listen to their teachers and studied after school. Then they might have had jobs.
Middle-class neighborhoods became poor neighborhoods when Section-8 housing took hold of a few buildings, and just enough families whose behavior was intolerable drove away former long-time residents.
Because poor people tend to have more babies -- and especially now that we reward that behavior with ever-larger apartments and more funding -- more buildings began to have more poor people living in them. Over fifty years, that's a lot of buildings that have, of necessity, had to be given over to poor, large families headed by single women.
The middle classes moved out of certain neighborhoods; they held on to others. In Flatbush, formerly lovely pre-war apartments have grown men spilling out of the majestic entranceways at all hours of the day and night. Yes, I know, they need jobs. But it would have helped if their mothers had had fewer babies, nurtured and taught the ones they had, and made their kids listen to their teachers and studied after school. Then they might have had jobs.
8
The article doesn't tell us how they got to 43% integration in 1988. What changed to make it go back down?
1
In his Three Evils of Society, Martin Luther King said:
"The promise of a Great Society was shipwrecked off the coast of Asia, on the dreadful peninsula of Vietnam. The poor, black and white, are still perishing on a lonely island of poverty in the midst of a vast ocean of material prosperity. What happens to a dream deferred? It leads to bewildering frustration and corroding bitterness."
Neoliberalism and neoconservatism are the main contributors to the picture Professor Edsall paints. Whether it is the birth of the charter school movement under Bill Clinton, or the push for changes to the welfare code begun under Reagan and enacted under Clinton, these are at the foundation of the re-segregation we see.
Professor Edsall is right. The policies needed in order to redress poverty and segregation require not only a national consensus but a political revolution; the kind Bernie Sanders has proposed. The institutional racism, segregation, income inequality and poverty Martin Luther King described in his '67 speech has not only worsened, but trapped an exponentially larger number of populations in what we can now call the American precariat. Bernie Sanders correctly in calls for redressing inequality and institutional racism in parallel. In addition, our national education systems need fundamental reform to pave the way for a consciousness of history that has, thus far, been denied us.
History repeats itself because we don't know it. Without knowing it, there is no change.
"The promise of a Great Society was shipwrecked off the coast of Asia, on the dreadful peninsula of Vietnam. The poor, black and white, are still perishing on a lonely island of poverty in the midst of a vast ocean of material prosperity. What happens to a dream deferred? It leads to bewildering frustration and corroding bitterness."
Neoliberalism and neoconservatism are the main contributors to the picture Professor Edsall paints. Whether it is the birth of the charter school movement under Bill Clinton, or the push for changes to the welfare code begun under Reagan and enacted under Clinton, these are at the foundation of the re-segregation we see.
Professor Edsall is right. The policies needed in order to redress poverty and segregation require not only a national consensus but a political revolution; the kind Bernie Sanders has proposed. The institutional racism, segregation, income inequality and poverty Martin Luther King described in his '67 speech has not only worsened, but trapped an exponentially larger number of populations in what we can now call the American precariat. Bernie Sanders correctly in calls for redressing inequality and institutional racism in parallel. In addition, our national education systems need fundamental reform to pave the way for a consciousness of history that has, thus far, been denied us.
History repeats itself because we don't know it. Without knowing it, there is no change.
40
Edsall's "solution" has been tried.
When the government moves people from poor neighborhoods into middle income neighborhoods, the new neighborhood becomes disproportionately more like the old poor neighborhood:violence in the schools, etc.
People who talk about these "solutions" aren't living in those middle income neighborhoods.
When the government moves people from poor neighborhoods into middle income neighborhoods, the new neighborhood becomes disproportionately more like the old poor neighborhood:violence in the schools, etc.
People who talk about these "solutions" aren't living in those middle income neighborhoods.
82
Rima: try to shorten your posts.
14
Thank you for sharing this, especially Bernie Sanders speech to the SCLC. Bernie is our best hope to restore the balance of power to working people.
2