It is not US foreign policy that is driving anti-Russian extremism in Ukraine's Nationalists but instead that of Russia. This legitimizes pro-Russian separatist sentiments in Ukraine and fuels widespread domestic Russian nationalism. This patriotic fervor obscures the cruel irony of thousands of ex-Soviet, Slavic compatriots killing one another as a direct result of Putin's paranoia of NATO/EU expansionism. Ukrainian lives matter. So does Ukrainian sovereignty. The sacrifice of both in order to "buffer" Russian's border with the "West" smacks of Stalinism.
2
Andrew Kramer failed to mentioned that "fiercely contested parliamentary vote over autonomy for eastern Ukraine" was not about autonomy for eastern Ukraine.
Minsk 2 says:
#5 - On the first day after the pullout a dialogue is to start on modalities of conducting local elections in accordance with the Ukrainian legislation and the Law of Ukraine “On temporary Order of Local Self-Governance in Particular Districts of Donetsk and Luhansk Oblasts,” and also about the future of these districts based on the above mentioned law.
Vote was for "decentralization" and failed to address this specific point. There was no "dialogue" with rebellious districts about these amendments as agreed in Minsk-2; and even this circumscribed vote drew such a reaction from far-right nationalists...
Minsk 2 says:
#5 - On the first day after the pullout a dialogue is to start on modalities of conducting local elections in accordance with the Ukrainian legislation and the Law of Ukraine “On temporary Order of Local Self-Governance in Particular Districts of Donetsk and Luhansk Oblasts,” and also about the future of these districts based on the above mentioned law.
Vote was for "decentralization" and failed to address this specific point. There was no "dialogue" with rebellious districts about these amendments as agreed in Minsk-2; and even this circumscribed vote drew such a reaction from far-right nationalists...
3
Remember, Minsk-1 was breached by Moscow rather quickly. Minsk-2, signed by Ukraine at Kremlin's nuclear gunpoint, was never honored by Moscow either in the part pertaining to exchange of POWs (including ones snatched from within Ukraine by Russia's "justice" system), cease-fire, and Russia's troops/armaments withdrawal from Ukraine. Basically, the West is pushing Ukraine to sign these "deals" with Russia to buy time, minimize damage and continue to conduct business with Russia as usual, meager sanctions aside.
There is an obvious parallel between these Ukrainian neo-Nazis and the SA-groups in 1930s Germany. Western media then described SA’s violence without much condemnation. After all, SA hated Russia and communists, which was not a bad thing. And the general sympathy for the Jews was not at today’s level, to put it mildly. Up until the beginning of the war prominent western leaders tacitly supported Hitler and considered him “a moderate”.
What could be the ultimate goal that the Ukrainian extremists are aiming at? Is it to force even more people to leave Donbass and kill the rest? (Western journalists never seem to ask such crucial questions.) A peaceful coexistence in any future, after the murderous atrocities the civilians have suffered, seems impossible for an outside observer. Maybe even with autonomy for Donbass. As with SA, it appears that violence is an aim in itself. We know what led to the last time, and it must be opposed by every possible means.
(By the way: Hitler eventually considered SA an internal rival, disbanded it and had its leaders murdered.)
What could be the ultimate goal that the Ukrainian extremists are aiming at? Is it to force even more people to leave Donbass and kill the rest? (Western journalists never seem to ask such crucial questions.) A peaceful coexistence in any future, after the murderous atrocities the civilians have suffered, seems impossible for an outside observer. Maybe even with autonomy for Donbass. As with SA, it appears that violence is an aim in itself. We know what led to the last time, and it must be opposed by every possible means.
(By the way: Hitler eventually considered SA an internal rival, disbanded it and had its leaders murdered.)
11
I'm posting a response to Ariel who critiqued an earlier comment of mine:
A fair criticism of my comment, But to be clear, I was not saying I was pleased about policemen being killed or injured. I’m pleased that there may be a return to the old government. This would be true Democracy in action. Moreover, I did not read about many people in the west wringing their hands over protesters and policemen being shot while Yanukovych was still in power. The evidence points to those Maidan snipers being associated with the protestors themselves. [Listen very carefully: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7zI4g64gV-w] Prior to the coup, Ukraine had a lower GINI index (lower inequality) than Russia and much lower and the United States. The same holds for the R10 and R20 measures of inequality. I don’t claim the previous government in Ukraine were angels, just that few countries do corruption as well as the U.S. I think the U.S. media has let us down. Give us the truth and let the people decide.
A fair criticism of my comment, But to be clear, I was not saying I was pleased about policemen being killed or injured. I’m pleased that there may be a return to the old government. This would be true Democracy in action. Moreover, I did not read about many people in the west wringing their hands over protesters and policemen being shot while Yanukovych was still in power. The evidence points to those Maidan snipers being associated with the protestors themselves. [Listen very carefully: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7zI4g64gV-w] Prior to the coup, Ukraine had a lower GINI index (lower inequality) than Russia and much lower and the United States. The same holds for the R10 and R20 measures of inequality. I don’t claim the previous government in Ukraine were angels, just that few countries do corruption as well as the U.S. I think the U.S. media has let us down. Give us the truth and let the people decide.
5
Vitriolic and contemptuous rhetoric on both sides is the main impediment to the successful implementation of the Minsk agreements and to peace in Ukraine. It is about time that the NYT stopped participating in such rhetoric. Depictions of Russia as evil empire and references to Putin as Hitler only exacerbate the mayhem. It is about time we focused on how each side in the conflict can have their reasonable demands met and on reigning in extremism on both sides. While the prevalence of hatred and contempt towards Russia in Ukrainian public opinion may be a desirable outcome for the US foreign policy, the truth is that it will not make Ukraine a strong independent European state, which it deserves to be.
13
Dear Dmitri, "hatred and contempt towards Russia" is a direct Ukraine's response to Russia's invasion and occupation of Crimea and part of East Ukraine, response to mass murder, destruction, torture, thievery and mere terrorism - all brought from Russia in violation of international law. You can be assured that this "hatred and contempt" towards the pro-Putin, pro-imperialism, anti-democracy part of Russia's society will remain there for generations to come. Ukraine, the Kievan Rus, is the mother of Slavs, and Putin's Russia literally waged a war against their parent. And indeed, Putin is a Hitler of modern times.
The existence of a majority of the extreme right is a reality in Ukranie Diplomacy of peace in Ukranie
4
What "majority of extreme right" are you talking about? What country is "Ukranie"? If one cannot spell the name of a country, least such person should claim any expertise in any political process there. Sigh.
A small xenophobic, openly fascist minority, that way over-represented in Maidan Coup government for months after Yanukovych was forced out, is going to be responsible for a permanent brake up Ukraine.
Putin does not want the responsibility of permanently supporting eastern Ukraine. A semi-autonomous region where the rights of the ethnic-Russian minority are respected is, and has been from day one after the coup, all that was needed to bring peace.
Unless Poroshenko takes strong action to defang these criminals, plan on a new eastern border for Ukraine going just east of Kharkiv southward to just west of Mariupol.
The Kiev government, only made possible by the help of criminal acts of neonazis, can no longer kick the can down the road. The existence of a substantial extreme-right minority in Ukraine is finally an excepted fact the Merkel and Obama can turn a blind eye towards.
Putin does not want the responsibility of permanently supporting eastern Ukraine. A semi-autonomous region where the rights of the ethnic-Russian minority are respected is, and has been from day one after the coup, all that was needed to bring peace.
Unless Poroshenko takes strong action to defang these criminals, plan on a new eastern border for Ukraine going just east of Kharkiv southward to just west of Mariupol.
The Kiev government, only made possible by the help of criminal acts of neonazis, can no longer kick the can down the road. The existence of a substantial extreme-right minority in Ukraine is finally an excepted fact the Merkel and Obama can turn a blind eye towards.
9
Of course Putin wants control of eastern Ukraine, he wants to seize as much territory as he can. That's why he is sending all those tanks,artillery, radar-guided missiles, Russian soldiers supposedly "on vacation" across the border into Ukraine. Ethnic Russian rights in Ukraine have never been violated. This is a myth and propaganda coming from the Kremlin.
Ukrainians have a right to defend their territory and if Mr. Shanahan calls this fascist or criminal behaviour then I guess by his reckoning all people of any nation who love and want to defend their country are "criminals and fascists".
Ukrainians have a right to defend their territory and if Mr. Shanahan calls this fascist or criminal behaviour then I guess by his reckoning all people of any nation who love and want to defend their country are "criminals and fascists".
1
Irnya,
Even 'The National Interest', a Reagan Library funded think tank, is warning of the extreme right's power in Kiev (it must be subversive propaganda..). Kiev has lost the hearts & minds of Americans. Notice the low volume of comments.
http://nationalinterest.org/feature/beware-ukraines-rising-right-sector-...
Even 'The National Interest', a Reagan Library funded think tank, is warning of the extreme right's power in Kiev (it must be subversive propaganda..). Kiev has lost the hearts & minds of Americans. Notice the low volume of comments.
http://nationalinterest.org/feature/beware-ukraines-rising-right-sector-...
2
Clark,....Funny how you are so alarmed by the extreme right in Ukraine (which is a small minority and a response to invasion of Ukraine by Russia) and make no mention of Russia's expansionism policy and its desire to take control of chunks of Ukrainian territory, having already illegally annexed Crimea.
Strange logic in this issue. The Ukrainians do not want to lose the territories occupied by people of Russian descent. Why do they treat the Russians like second class citizens? Why the cultural prejudice? Why do they single out Russians and Jews as non Caucasians?
9
Anthony, you'd be surprised to find out that most people who fight against Russian invasion in the East speak Russian and are in fact Slavs, descendants of the Kievan Rus. The notion of "discrimination of the Russians" exists solely in Kremlin propaganda. Go on Youtube and watch those videos from the battlefield yourself, and make note of what language the Ukraine's servicemen speak.
1
If eastern Ukraine wants autonomy, it seems reasonable to let them have it. President Poroshenko has a tough row to hoe. Opponents of autonomy need to conduct their opposition nonviolently.
7
When Kremlin-armed Russian "volunteers" illegally cross the border and flood the East Ukraine and ask for "autonomy", should we let them have it?
1
Please remember how dependent Europe is on Russian gas. Merkel will throw anyone under the bus to protect their energy lifeline. She has also shown how intimidated she is by Putin. Remember the "dog incident"?
1
Some commenters bewail Russian actions in east Ukraine, others fault the Kiev government. For Americans at least, the best course to choose is noninvolvement. Like it or not, Ukraine is vital to Russia's security. Ukraine for centuries was a part of Russia; in fact the Russian state was founded at Kiev. In its 24 years of independence, Ukraine has proven itself to be a failed state. Despite vast mineral and agricultural wealth, it has been unable to govern itself properly or even pay its bills.
Putin is a thug, but Russian actions reflect Russia's perceived security needs, not to mention 1,000 years of Russian history. It's as if we gave away Texas, then regretted it and decided to get it back -- except that Russia-Ukraine ties go back 1,000 years, whereas we stole Texas from Mexico only 170 years ago.
Ukraine is not in the NATO alliance. If Russia were to attack Poland (with which it doesn't even have a border), or the Baltics (all NATO members), we would wage war in their defense. Ukraine, on the other hand, is none of our business.
Putin is a thug, but Russian actions reflect Russia's perceived security needs, not to mention 1,000 years of Russian history. It's as if we gave away Texas, then regretted it and decided to get it back -- except that Russia-Ukraine ties go back 1,000 years, whereas we stole Texas from Mexico only 170 years ago.
Ukraine is not in the NATO alliance. If Russia were to attack Poland (with which it doesn't even have a border), or the Baltics (all NATO members), we would wage war in their defense. Ukraine, on the other hand, is none of our business.
7
You forgot about the Budapest Memorandum of 1994 where Ukraine gave away its 3rd world's largest nuclear arsenal for the guarantees of souverenity and territiroal integrity. The US, Russia and Great Britain signed that. Ukraine is no more "failed state" than, for instance, Greece. Russia needs to withdraw from Ukraine, Crimea included, and pay for all the damages incurred by their invasion.
1
Right, Greece is a failed state, too. I haven't forgotten the 1994 Budapest Memorandum, but I'm favor of the U.S. repudiating it.
Don't hold your breath waiting for a Russian withdrawal.
Don't hold your breath waiting for a Russian withdrawal.
1
"President Petro O. Poroshenko had conceded the constitutional change, which is included in the text of the Minsk agreement, with a metaphorical gun to his head: thousands of Ukrainian soldiers surrounded by Russian-backed rebels near the Ukrainian railroad town of Debaltseve." That gun to the head was hardly "metaphorical" -- many soldiers were killed that day although they were supposed to be allowed an escape route.
The key fact to remember is that Putin & proxies are largely ignoring the Minsk agreements, while Ukraine is implementing them. Why is the West not applying more pressure on Putin?
The key fact to remember is that Putin & proxies are largely ignoring the Minsk agreements, while Ukraine is implementing them. Why is the West not applying more pressure on Putin?
2
The Ukrainian Parliament does something sensible - even good.
Others before had done similarly good things:
President Yanukovic accepted a safety guarantee from EU governments and withdrew all security police from government buildings.
And the Ukrainian Parliament set up, immediately after the mass murder, a Commission - which came u with some interesting findings - which did not blame the said President who had fled from an armed mob by then.
And the name "Svoboda" had come up somehow in those days.
And look now: The "good" old "Svoboda" is at work again, Prime Minister Yatseniuk's party.
Mind you, just before that fateful 21 February 2014, the same party was known as the "Socialist-National Party" - which sounds somewhat familiar. So did their banners and paroles on the Maidan just before that "Revolution" there.
I had always thought a revolution is when government shoots at people, demonstrators and so - and these people pick up their own weapons - not when government opponents shoot their own demonstrators in the back.
But in Ukraine, one can learn a lot.
Well, Mr. Poroshenko can praise himself lucky that it was ONLY a hand grenade this time. The last time, in Odessa, it was about 100 dead bodies and a burning trade union building.
And before that, on that 21 February, salvos like Admiral Nelson's broadsides came from the Kiev Philharmony which, incidentally, the same "Svoboda" had occupied since the 20th.
I mean: It's a good trick to kill first, then blame others.
Others before had done similarly good things:
President Yanukovic accepted a safety guarantee from EU governments and withdrew all security police from government buildings.
And the Ukrainian Parliament set up, immediately after the mass murder, a Commission - which came u with some interesting findings - which did not blame the said President who had fled from an armed mob by then.
And the name "Svoboda" had come up somehow in those days.
And look now: The "good" old "Svoboda" is at work again, Prime Minister Yatseniuk's party.
Mind you, just before that fateful 21 February 2014, the same party was known as the "Socialist-National Party" - which sounds somewhat familiar. So did their banners and paroles on the Maidan just before that "Revolution" there.
I had always thought a revolution is when government shoots at people, demonstrators and so - and these people pick up their own weapons - not when government opponents shoot their own demonstrators in the back.
But in Ukraine, one can learn a lot.
Well, Mr. Poroshenko can praise himself lucky that it was ONLY a hand grenade this time. The last time, in Odessa, it was about 100 dead bodies and a burning trade union building.
And before that, on that 21 February, salvos like Admiral Nelson's broadsides came from the Kiev Philharmony which, incidentally, the same "Svoboda" had occupied since the 20th.
I mean: It's a good trick to kill first, then blame others.
9
In 1944 Poland and in later years, the standard NKVD (previous KGB name) tactics was to infiltrate (often to establish on their own) anti-Soviet organisations, the more anti-Soviet the better. It was then used in various ways, mostly to first recruit and then arrest the whole organisation with a great fanfare and use it as a justification to arrest anybody else deemed "dangerous". But sometimes Soviets were doing provocations.
This had been continued in the West Germany during Cold War. Recently it had been discovered that the West German police officer who had (brutally and without any cause) killed a demonstrating left-wing student (early 70ties), had been a Stasi agent. This killing was one of important factors in the development of the West German anti-government, "pro-peace" movement (these nasty government thugs, you know, gotta be against them).
So about this much shouted about "Ukrainian fascists/rightists". They got about 1% of the vote. This is the true size of the (non)-issue. The conspiracy theories are optional, I just mentioned the (true) history above.
This had been continued in the West Germany during Cold War. Recently it had been discovered that the West German police officer who had (brutally and without any cause) killed a demonstrating left-wing student (early 70ties), had been a Stasi agent. This killing was one of important factors in the development of the West German anti-government, "pro-peace" movement (these nasty government thugs, you know, gotta be against them).
So about this much shouted about "Ukrainian fascists/rightists". They got about 1% of the vote. This is the true size of the (non)-issue. The conspiracy theories are optional, I just mentioned the (true) history above.
1
It's interesting that "the (true) history above" reads just like a conspiracy theory (Soviet government sets up anti-Soviet organizations): "true" history seems to be the history we like.
Dr. Scotch: true history is something documented, researched and peer reviewed.
The specific (NKVD established and controlled) organisation I had in mind was the so called "5th HQ of the Freedom and Independence Organisation", for details see http://niniwa22.cba.pl/operacja_cezary.htm (which is a scholarly publication of the Polish government historical institute tasked with documenting the recent Polish history).
I know it does sound like conspiracy theory. But as they say - "the fact that you are paranoid does not mean nobody is after you".
The specific (NKVD established and controlled) organisation I had in mind was the so called "5th HQ of the Freedom and Independence Organisation", for details see http://niniwa22.cba.pl/operacja_cezary.htm (which is a scholarly publication of the Polish government historical institute tasked with documenting the recent Polish history).
I know it does sound like conspiracy theory. But as they say - "the fact that you are paranoid does not mean nobody is after you".
Most of the protesters are said to be members of the far-right Svoboda, that was part of the Maidan movement which overthrew Viktor Yanukovych last year. It did badly at the polls and only has a handful of lawmakers.
As part of the Minsk ceasefire agreement Ukraine promised “special status” to the areas in the Donbass region held by rebels. But many in Ukraine find the concessions controversial, saying Russia does little to honour the agreement, and if they give Moscow a finger, it will take the whole hand.
Ukrainians are divided over what to do with the Russian-backed regions in the east. Despite official denials, Moscow has proved determined not to let the rebels to be militarily defeated.
For the moment Ukraine is in a disarray politically and financially. It doesn't have the means to fight the rebels and should focus on reforms in the rest of the country and leave the rebel areas to their own devices. As long as Ukraine remains unstable, it will not be able to move on. Yet nationalists demand military action in the east, saying if they opt for reforms, they would only reward the Kremlin for its aggression.
What can we outsiders do?
As part of the Minsk ceasefire agreement Ukraine promised “special status” to the areas in the Donbass region held by rebels. But many in Ukraine find the concessions controversial, saying Russia does little to honour the agreement, and if they give Moscow a finger, it will take the whole hand.
Ukrainians are divided over what to do with the Russian-backed regions in the east. Despite official denials, Moscow has proved determined not to let the rebels to be militarily defeated.
For the moment Ukraine is in a disarray politically and financially. It doesn't have the means to fight the rebels and should focus on reforms in the rest of the country and leave the rebel areas to their own devices. As long as Ukraine remains unstable, it will not be able to move on. Yet nationalists demand military action in the east, saying if they opt for reforms, they would only reward the Kremlin for its aggression.
What can we outsiders do?
6
Everyone is horrified by the casualties in the conflicts, which is over 6000 by now. But too many omit the fact that it is Kiev with full support of US and blind eye from Europe who is directly responsible. Neither separatist nor Russian troops are bombing Kiev, it is in fact other way around. Kiev for whatever reason is indiscriminately killing people in east Ukraine, how about that? It all started as a peaceful protest till in 2014 when Kiev decided to settle it by force.
20
Kiev's decision to use force was not entirely irrational. After losing Crimea with much resistance, they didn't have any good options in Donbass. If they opted not to use force, they could have lost even more than just Donbass. Nor Porosheno-Yatsenyuk could stay in power if they allowed another creepy annexation. The decision to use force was also bad as Ukraine didn't have a real professional force at the time and had to rely on battalions from among volunteering radicals or units paid by oligarchs. From that point (April-May, 2014) both sides were locked in a deadly escalation as Russia could not afford a defeat in Donbass but nor could Kiev.
1
The coup in Kiev triggered the annexation, not the other way around. Crimea (the most Russian of all Russian territories) peacefully voted and asked for it as soon as the populace realized the level of insanity in Kiev they are up against. Unfortunately, Washington’s involvement showed little understanding of the geopolitical environment. Some political figures (John McCain and Victoria Nuland) who sought to influence regime change by any means necessary, sided with the far right (there are pictures of Nuland and McCain with Svoboda party leaders) pushing their agenda, unable to understand the violent nature of these people. As soon as Ukraine turned into a hot potato, Washington sought to exonerate itself from any wrong doing by starting a blame game with Russia. In my opinion, the US and EU foreign policies are profoundly inadequate, to say the least, and will destabilize the already fragile EU zone (the recent influx of refugees and not only).
3
I am not disputing your points re what triggered the crisis. Few may remember how first decisions of Rada initiated by the same Svoboda on the Russian language in Ukraine added fuel to the fire. It was later reverted but it was too late. I am trying to explain why the option of abstaining from force was worse for new authorities in Kiev from the perspective of their interests. We know now that in Crimea the White House restrained Kiev from using force. I don't rule out that when it came to Donbass the US policy makers reversed their position as they too became convinced that only force could stop Russia. This conclusion is supported by numerous public statements in support of Ukraine's right to self-defense by US decision-makers. A consensus emerged about strategy to contain Putin - sanctions and information support of Ukraine's actions coupled with Ukrainian war effort. Only after several military disasters in Illovaisk and later Debaltsevo persuaded Western and Ukrainian policy-makers that there were no military solutions. Was it a miscalculation of Russia's resolve to avoid a defeat in Donbass or a well-calculated strategy of entrapment? Hard to say. But two things are obvious that the downing of MH17 was a game changer and Putin had to change his Ukraine strategy from the euphoric expansion of the Crimea success to project Novorossia to Donbass as part of Ukraine with a special status. Now the game has shifted to a lose-lose war of attrition. Who will blink first?
It is sad to see the protests in Kyiv turn violent, however, having endured so many decades of oppressive rule under Russia, many Ukrainians are not willing to give up any of their territory to Russia ever again.
Autonomy of Eastern Ukraine is just a ruse by Putin to destabilize Ukraine. There will be no autonomy, just rule by thugs, controlled by Russia and destruction of all Ukrainian culture and life there.
Ukraine cannot cede this territory. Russia has broken international laws by attacking its neighbour and is at the same level as other terrorist nations.
Autonomy of Eastern Ukraine is just a ruse by Putin to destabilize Ukraine. There will be no autonomy, just rule by thugs, controlled by Russia and destruction of all Ukrainian culture and life there.
Ukraine cannot cede this territory. Russia has broken international laws by attacking its neighbour and is at the same level as other terrorist nations.
7
1. Decentralization does not grant autonomy to the breakaway regions.
2. Decentralization is part of the Minsk 2 agreement (item 11) endorsed by the leaders of Ukraine, Russia, Germany, and France.
3. United States welcomed the agreement and insists on its full implementation, including the item on decentralization, as a step to peace.
4. President Poroshenko in his public statement last night said that opponents of the amendments on centralization are working against Ukraine's national interests.
2. Decentralization is part of the Minsk 2 agreement (item 11) endorsed by the leaders of Ukraine, Russia, Germany, and France.
3. United States welcomed the agreement and insists on its full implementation, including the item on decentralization, as a step to peace.
4. President Poroshenko in his public statement last night said that opponents of the amendments on centralization are working against Ukraine's national interests.
11
21 year old Mr. Igor Gumenyuk who allegedly threw the grenade is an active duty servicemen in the battalion "Sich" funded by the radical nationalist party led by Tyagnibok, an active member of the Maidan troika. Senator McCain honored him with a handshake on one of his visits to Kiev. What NYT, unfortunately, failed to mention is that this national guard battalion is subordinated to the Ministry of Interior that is to Minister Avakov himself.
The issue of decentralization is obfuscated as a demand of Putin and a concession to Russia. In fact, the Minsk 2 agreement was mediated by Hollande and Merkel and in their recent meeting with Poroshenko in Berlin (August 24) they insisted that decentralization be implemented. Moreover, in his speech at Rada the head of the ruling party, Mr. Lutsenko, stated today that decentralization was one of the demands of the Maidan. Mr. Saakashvili, governor of the Odessa oblast, too, supported the decentralization and even revoked the free cities under the Magdeburg law in the Middle Ages. By insisting that this was a concession to the Kremlin with a gun to his head in Debaltsevo, NYT further confuses its readership. If this was a concession to Putin, then NYT is giving a credit to the radical nationalists of Tyagnibok, listed as number 5 anti-Semite by the Wiesenthal Center.
The issue of decentralization is obfuscated as a demand of Putin and a concession to Russia. In fact, the Minsk 2 agreement was mediated by Hollande and Merkel and in their recent meeting with Poroshenko in Berlin (August 24) they insisted that decentralization be implemented. Moreover, in his speech at Rada the head of the ruling party, Mr. Lutsenko, stated today that decentralization was one of the demands of the Maidan. Mr. Saakashvili, governor of the Odessa oblast, too, supported the decentralization and even revoked the free cities under the Magdeburg law in the Middle Ages. By insisting that this was a concession to the Kremlin with a gun to his head in Debaltsevo, NYT further confuses its readership. If this was a concession to Putin, then NYT is giving a credit to the radical nationalists of Tyagnibok, listed as number 5 anti-Semite by the Wiesenthal Center.
18
By your logic, Texas should be part of Mexico.
1
I don't see any logic in your statement. U.S. has been a federated union throughout its history and Texas has been part of the federation since 1845. Decentralization proposed by Poroshenko is not even about federalism or autonomy to the break-away regions.. According to the Constitutional law voted yesterday in Rada, no special status will be given to "the certain territories in Luhansk and Donetsk regions.
7
Texas was in fact a break away province of Mexico and an independent territory before annexation to the US. The "nationalists" in Texas rebelled against the Mexican government in part because of Mexico's abolition of slavery in 1835, a fact never mentioned in Alamo folklore. Texas planters were bringing slaves in from Mississippi and Louisiana by the thousands, joining the cotton boom of the 1830's. They decided to revolt rather than cede their property to the new Mexican law. By 1860 they decided to revolt against the US government for the same reasons.
As far as Eastern Ukraine is concerned the NYT also neglects to mention the outright fascists who are part of this nationalist movement and who openly display the swastika. Autonomy in the east will at least pave the way for a cessation of hostilities while at least nominally keeping the country in tact.
As far as Eastern Ukraine is concerned the NYT also neglects to mention the outright fascists who are part of this nationalist movement and who openly display the swastika. Autonomy in the east will at least pave the way for a cessation of hostilities while at least nominally keeping the country in tact.
2
This is good news inasmuch as a majority in any region or province should have the right to secede or at the very least gain more autonomy from the greater state in which it exists. This principle of self-determination has been a tenet of Western democracy since at least the early 20th century, and the will and rights of the residents of eastern Ukraine must be respected.
The problem is that the Ukrainian government, nor any state, should not be compelled to "negotiate" such autonomy at the point of a gun, especially a gun controlled by Vladimir Putin. If Putin is so concerned about the rights of the eastern Ukrainians, he should also allow the Chechens to secede from the Russian Federation if they so vote, to say nothing of respecting the sovereignty and territorial integrity of such former Soviet republics as Latvia, Estonia, and Moldova.
The problem is that the Ukrainian government, nor any state, should not be compelled to "negotiate" such autonomy at the point of a gun, especially a gun controlled by Vladimir Putin. If Putin is so concerned about the rights of the eastern Ukrainians, he should also allow the Chechens to secede from the Russian Federation if they so vote, to say nothing of respecting the sovereignty and territorial integrity of such former Soviet republics as Latvia, Estonia, and Moldova.
5
There was a referendum in Chechnya in 2003. 90% voted to stay in the RF. Can you elaborate on territorial integrity and sovereignty of Latvia and Estonia? Moldova has had two breakaway regions since before the break-up of the USSR.
3
That election in 2003 was ruled corrupt by the OSCE. And if you believe that the current ruler Ramzan Kadyrov is favored by a majority of Chechens you must also believe that Putin is a great humanitarian and respecter the democratic and civil rights of the Russian people.
Russia covets the eastern region of Latvia, and basically all of Estonia, Latvia, and Lithuania as former Soviet possessions, but these are now (by the majority will of their respective citizens) safely NATO territories.
Transnistria is part of Moldova. If a majority of its residents wish to secede they should pursue this through peaceful means and not the current mode of military force.
Russia covets the eastern region of Latvia, and basically all of Estonia, Latvia, and Lithuania as former Soviet possessions, but these are now (by the majority will of their respective citizens) safely NATO territories.
Transnistria is part of Moldova. If a majority of its residents wish to secede they should pursue this through peaceful means and not the current mode of military force.
1. I don't have any other ways of determining how many Chechens really voted for Chechnya in 2003 other than results of the referendum. Nor have you. I simply stated the fact. Chechnya and Grozny in particular today is not what it was in 2003, to say nothing of 1995. Some Westerners seem to be more keen on Chechnya's "independence" than Chechens themselves. Meanwhile, the short-lived de facto independence from 1996 to 1999 was a total disaster, in some aspects not very different from ISIS.
2. There are too many self-styled pundits on what Russia and Putin want. This attribution of intentions is done in a vein of crass conspiracy theories. Problems in Latvia and Estonia are of a different nature - they have rather large Russian populations for years denied citizenship and living as apatrides. In 1989 there were 34% Russians in Latvia, in 2011 - 26.9%. In Estonia 30.9% and 25.2% in respective years. The titular ethnic groups with lower or equal birth rates have grown in that same period. There is admittedly "bad history" between Soviet Union and Baltic states and which is being projected onto modern Russia. There have been no territorial claims from Russia, there have been from the Baltic states. They too have their marches of Nazi collaborators condoned by the West.
3. The population of Transnistria has 30% (relative majority) of Moldavs. Gagauz Eri, are mostly Turkic Christian. You may not like it but they also had referendums largely favoring secession from Moldova.
2. There are too many self-styled pundits on what Russia and Putin want. This attribution of intentions is done in a vein of crass conspiracy theories. Problems in Latvia and Estonia are of a different nature - they have rather large Russian populations for years denied citizenship and living as apatrides. In 1989 there were 34% Russians in Latvia, in 2011 - 26.9%. In Estonia 30.9% and 25.2% in respective years. The titular ethnic groups with lower or equal birth rates have grown in that same period. There is admittedly "bad history" between Soviet Union and Baltic states and which is being projected onto modern Russia. There have been no territorial claims from Russia, there have been from the Baltic states. They too have their marches of Nazi collaborators condoned by the West.
3. The population of Transnistria has 30% (relative majority) of Moldavs. Gagauz Eri, are mostly Turkic Christian. You may not like it but they also had referendums largely favoring secession from Moldova.
1
What anyone who has lived in Ukraine knows is that federalization will mean allowing criminal clans to run their fiefdoms in Donetsk and Luhansk, not burdened by rule of law, as they have done for years, but these constitutional changes would enshrine their right to do so in law. Putin wants Yanukovych-like toughs in charge there, who he can fund and control (like he does Chechnya) and who will make it impossible to pass necessary reform legislation in the Ukrainian parliament and make European reforms. This is not about regular people having more say -- you can bet that neither Putin nor the warlords he supports are about that.
10
So a hand grenade was thrown during a protest clash with police, and one person died, dozens injured. This is sad indeed, it was a young man, somebody's son. At the same time, East Ukraine suffers from daily heavy shelling by the pro-Russian forces (cease-fire we have), causing non stop civilian and army casualties and millions of damage. But those daily deadly violations by Russia are not news worthy anymore. And we just found out that a NATO member, Spain, went ahead and refueled a Russian submarine.
8
It's sad to see comments appearing here that falsely idealize the deeply corrupt previous Ukraine regime, and that call for the collapse of a much more democratically legitimate and reformist government (for all of its faults, and its supporters). Provocation has apparently become a standard part of every step forward toward stabilizing Ukraine's difficult relationship with Putin's authoritarian hyper-nationalist Russia... including lots of spin even in New York Times comment sections and efforts to whitewash the Putin regime. As long as the demons of ethnic nationalism, irredentism, and authoritarianism continue their evil work, it is unlikely that Ukraine, or the larger regions, will see much peace, and the peacemakers will doubtless be subject to all kinds of aggression, including violence from nationalists of both Ukranian and Russian stripes, for their efforts.
10
Bottom line, peace is not on the table for Putin if Ukraine is allowed to remain independent, sovereign nation with territorial integrity restored in accordance with the 1994 Budapest Memorandum breached by Russia by their Crimea and East Ukraine invasion. The question is, can Putin afford this war to continue, and when the cost will be deemed too high by Moscow junta. Apparently Kremlin has not exhausted all their warmongering reserves yet.
7
"It's sad to see comments appearing here that falsely idealize the deeply corrupt previous Ukraine regime, and that call for the collapse of a much more democratically legitimate and reformist government"
Opinion polls consistently show that Ukrainians consider the present regime just as corrupt as the previous one. Given political murders and persecution it is hard to consider the present regime more "democratically legitimate" either. As for reforms: they are often announced but seldom adopted.
Since the Maidan coup the political discourse in Ukraine has been dominated by Right Sektor and other extremist thugs. The spreading of hatred that started on the Maidan never stopped. Any moderate voice must fear threats and worse. That is the ground on which the present protests take place. However, we shouldn't conclude - as the article seems to do - that most Ukrainians support them.
Opinion polls consistently show that Ukrainians consider the present regime just as corrupt as the previous one. Given political murders and persecution it is hard to consider the present regime more "democratically legitimate" either. As for reforms: they are often announced but seldom adopted.
Since the Maidan coup the political discourse in Ukraine has been dominated by Right Sektor and other extremist thugs. The spreading of hatred that started on the Maidan never stopped. Any moderate voice must fear threats and worse. That is the ground on which the present protests take place. However, we shouldn't conclude - as the article seems to do - that most Ukrainians support them.
4
So many people did not vote in the last election, that the winner of last years election (Poroshenko) receieved 9,857,308 votes. The man he deposed Viktor Yanukovych, recieved 12,481,266 in 2010. So literally speaking, you can't say Poroshenko was elected more democratically. Additionally the fire sale of Ukrainian assets to international corporations is one unpopular component of reforms, as well as slashing the safety net. With reforms like that, its no wonder people are disillusioned.
2
The guide should be what the people of Eastern Ukraine want, and the only way to determine that is through an internationally supervised plebiscite in each Eastern province. If these provinces vote for autonomy, independence, reunification with Russia, or to remain a art of Ukraine -- their vote should be honored by all Ukrainians and by the international community.
Such a plebiscite is the only path to peace.
Such a plebiscite is the only path to peace.
22
Really? According to military experts data, Russia has pumped the region with weapons, heavy artillery and tanks in the amount that surpasses armies of many European states. Plebiscite at gunpoint and dominant Russian propaganda describing Europe and USA as "fascists and forcing children in schools to become gays"? You must be kidding!
15
And would you block hateful, Russian propaganda that has lied about what's happening, about Ukrainians, and about Russia's role in the east? Would you disarm the thugs who have been armed by Russia and have terrorized locals so that anyone who supports Ukraine who had the means to leave already has?
7
"Would you disarm the thugs who have been armed by Russia and have terrorized locals so that anyone who supports Ukraine who had the means to leave already has?"
It is well known that more refugees have gone to the East - to Russia, than to the West. So who is terrorizing locals?
It is well known that more refugees have gone to the East - to Russia, than to the West. So who is terrorizing locals?
1
I'm not surprised, but I'm pleased. Not suprised because there have been reports of dissension by neo-Nazis in western Ukraine for some time with extremists turning against the new "government." To the best of my knowledge, the NY Times did not report any of this. But the information is available in the more informative alternative media. I'm pleased because I'm now more hopeful that the current government will simply collapse, allowing for the return of the former legitimate government. Apparently, Hillary Clinton advocated strongly to place Victoria Jane Nuland in the position of Assistant Secretary of State for European and Eurasian Affairs at the United States Department of State. That, together with her determination to destroy the Libyan government of Muammar Gaddafi, automatically disqualifies her for the presidency. One more point. The U.S. ended up fighting the erstwhile allies Taliban and Al Qaeda in Afghanistan. We're now fighting erstwhile allies ISIS and Al Qaeda in Libya, Iraq, and Syria. Unless, there is a peaceful settlement in Ukraine, we will be fighting the neo-Nazis in Ukraine within 10 years. Another Pandora's Box has been opened.
17
Yikes. You're pleased? We're talking about a human being dying. and the former government wasn't legitimate -- the president lost all legitimacy by his criminal behavior, corruption of the police, courts, government structures, parliament --disregard for the constitution.
11
Neo-Nazis will be marginalized in the Ukraine if it becomes part of the European Union. We already see that process beginning in this article.
This article uses a lot of language damning Vladimir Putin. Readers should know that Eastern Ukrainians themselves demand some local autonomy in exchange for laying down their arms, irrespective of what Mr. Putin thinks. It is good news that the actual key point in ending the conflict, agreed by Poroshenko, Merkel and Putin (the actual East Ukrainians were not allowed to attend the conference at the insistence of Poroshenko, if I am not mistaken), was to allow some limited degree of federalization of East Ukraine. If this is ratified, peace could happen. But the damage of trust with the ethnically Russian East and the ethnically Ukrainian West will take a long time to repair. I want to register my complaint that this article does not fairly represent that this is the key condition of Minsk II, and that Minsk II was actually a fairly reasonable compromise. Had it been implemented immediately (the self rule provisions for Donbass, etc) many lives might have been saved. The ferocity of the attacks by the right wing ultra nationalist quasi fascist Ukrainians such as right sector, show just how frightening the forces the ethnically and culturally Russian oriented East face.
25
Have you been to the Eastern Ukraine occupied by Russia lately? Have you been to Chechnya, Transnistria or Ossetia, previously taken over by Russia's hybrid invasions? Those regions have no autonomy, and there is no economy, human rights, no free press. The value of human life there is close to zero.
17
Do you think Putin is insisting on changes to the Ukrainian constitution because he wants regular people to have more say, to have more democracy? Look at his own country! This is about destabilizing Ukraine. Criminal gangs have been allowed to run Donetsk and Luhansk as their own fiefdoms for years -- they want to be able to keep doing that and Putin is willing to fund them in return for their destabilizing Ukraine.
11
Yes, but I'm sure that we can all agree that these reactionary bigots would not have actually fired on the police during the Maidan protests in 2014, as some are claiming, even if their Nuland directed neocon handlers (CIA) had directed them to, and even if it would have gained their cause some heavy propaganda advantage in the flaccidly complicit western media.
1
Another developing mess in Ukraine, since the U.S./EU/NATO stoked the violent coup there last year. Remember John McCain & Victoria Nuland handing out cookies to the Maidan street insurgents? Well, the cookie crumbled.
14
How about tens of thousands of Russian troops occupying Crimea and part of East Ukraine in violation of international law? How about dozens of civilians being killed and maimed daily from Russia's shelling for the last year and a half?
6
Polls taken a year after Crimea voted to rejoin Russia show that Crimeans overwhelmingly support that vote. We should applaud that they got their wish.
See:
http://www.forbes.com/sites/kenrapoza/2015/03/20/one-year-after-russia-a...
See:
http://www.forbes.com/sites/kenrapoza/2015/03/20/one-year-after-russia-a...
10
I don't think cookies cause coups. That is insulting to the millions of people who took to the streets over a long, cold winter because they would not tolerate being treated as serfs to the Yanukovych clan. Revolution of Dignity.
6
The eastern regions will resist rule by the current Kievan government to the last dead civilian. It's best to recognize this and let them secede.
12
You probably mean those "volunteers" and regular army from Russia will resist the democratically elected leadership in Kyiv? It is becoming problematic for Putin, because those Kremlin-led forces have a hard time conscripting mercenaries as ruble is falling along with the oil prices. On top of that, many Russian "volunteers" get bored and disappointed when they cross to East Ukraine but fail to find those "Ukrainian fascists and NATO troops" that were preached about by Kremlin propagandists. What they see is total corruption, Kremlin-armed gangs, Russian soldiers with no insignia who are 'on vacation', etc.
10
"What they see is total corruption, Kremlin-armed gangs, Russian soldiers with no insignia who are 'on vacation', etc."
And now they see Ukrainian soldier from battalion Sych comes to protest at Ukrainian Parliament with pockets full of grenades.
It will inspire them to be part of Ukraine even more than before...
And now they see Ukrainian soldier from battalion Sych comes to protest at Ukrainian Parliament with pockets full of grenades.
It will inspire them to be part of Ukraine even more than before...
1
You should have said that Putin uses civilians as human shields for his hybrid army in East Ukraine, as in was the case with his war in Georgia and Chechnya. The last dead civilian would make Russia's army quite vulnerable by losing that human shield.
Shocking development -- Kievans hurting Kievans -- and can only give comfort
to the enemies of Ukraine. The fallout from this remains to be seen.
In any event, leadership demands that legislation be better explained to the
people; there is a good argument to be made for entirely abandoning the
Eastern areas to their own devices, even to the Russian exchequer.
to the enemies of Ukraine. The fallout from this remains to be seen.
In any event, leadership demands that legislation be better explained to the
people; there is a good argument to be made for entirely abandoning the
Eastern areas to their own devices, even to the Russian exchequer.
2
You're exactly right here, general population in Ukraine is not well informed, suffers barrage of Russian propaganda which creates even more chaos, rumors and a sense of betrayal of the voters. When you have lots of veterans coming home with PTSD, such accidents are expected, but avoidable. Too much work to do, to big of an enemy to fight both outside and inside. And by the way, most of the population feels betrayed by the international community and world powers as well.
4
The "international community," i.e. USA neocons and their NATO enforcers have just been using Ukraine for two goals: to get at Russia, a truly independent nation (not perfect, mind you) which cannot be allowed to compete, and to strip Ukraine of its many resources, pennies on the dollar.
Have you not recognized what USA has done by its interventions in Iraq, Libya and Syria and realized that this is now the inevitable fate of Ukraine, too?! The Americans will go on to other misadventures now while Europe deals with yet another refugee invasion, and yes, they will turn their back on Ukraine too because EU has been duped by neocon pipe dream.
Have you not recognized what USA has done by its interventions in Iraq, Libya and Syria and realized that this is now the inevitable fate of Ukraine, too?! The Americans will go on to other misadventures now while Europe deals with yet another refugee invasion, and yes, they will turn their back on Ukraine too because EU has been duped by neocon pipe dream.
6
What competition with Russia are you talking about, Lavrentii? Is anything made in Russia? Or does not its budget solely depend on pumping out oil, natural gas and other raw materials? Russia does not design or make any popular brand of an automobile, gadget, software (mind the recent Kaspersky scandal), - nothing. And how many interventions Russia made starting from creating North Korea, Russia's decade long Afghanistan war, Russian tanks in Prague and Budapest, Transnistria, massacre of Chechnya and Georgia, and now Ukraine.