People who have lost sane morality, empathy and reason do crazy, violent things. I think it has always been so. The new method of choice seems to be shooting with an automatic weapon. It stands to reason that controls on these devices would help a lot. Some new technique or technology will undoubtedly replace guns if they are in short supply…until we deal with the underlying reasons for assailants, whether at the individual, group or cultural level.
1
Another very, very sad story in America's war of violent crime. Has anyone noticed how vulnerable white people are to violent crime in America? The death toll for white people at the hands of non-white people is truly horrifying. It is far past time for government to create a public service campaign that discloses violent crime statistics that clearly identify by race the violent criminal perpetrator and violent criminal victim. Disclosure and transparency should be the primary purpose of these disclosure reports, which should be issued weekly on all major media outlets. The people deserve to know who is responsible for the ongoing heinous mayhem..
4
These murders are almost a perfect in their context to provide all sides in our political divisions much to use in the slogans and social posts. Some will claim that it bolsters their demand for gun control (including our President), some will point a finger at black version of racism, some will blame it on the "race card", some will attach significance to the fact he was gay. Other's will use it to make unrelated political points - Mr. Obama used it to diminish the toll of terror n this country. And so on. Sadly. Everyone will extract the maximum possible value to support their agenda. But, in fact, this is only a symptom. Something about our modern lives ir proving simply too much for the psychologically fragile and damaged. What they choose as an excuse to kill others (and most of the times themselves) is almost co-incidental. It tells us more about about their personal prejudices then about the real cause of their break down. I suspect that in time, we will recognize the relentless stress of our modern lives, the non-stop pressure to compete, the insane amount informational stimulation, Our overcrowded world moving in at hyper-speed is proving to be simply too much for the more fragile and confused. And then, they snap....
3
The calls for gun control are understandable, but misplaced. The reason we, as a people, have enshrined in our Federal Constitution the right to keep and bear arms is simply so we are never at the mercy of our government, rather the other way around.
But as the saying goes, "with great power comes great responsibility". And that is where we are failing as a nation, and failing miserably. If we cannot handle the rights we have, then perhaps we should lose them. And if we do find ourselves subject to a ruling elite that is no longer accountable to the public, then perhaps we deserve that outcome as well.
When an individual comports himself in such a manner that he cannot handle his own freedom and uses it to violate the freedoms of others we, as a society, restrain him in either a prison or a mental institution.
Similarly, if we as a society continue to demonstrate that we cannot handle the rights that those before us had no problem dealing with, maybe it's time to extinguish those rights and replace them with some sort of "adult supervision". But if we do decide to go down such a road , let's do it with our eyes wide open knowing that we will not longer be truly free. And maybe we deserve it.
But as the saying goes, "with great power comes great responsibility". And that is where we are failing as a nation, and failing miserably. If we cannot handle the rights we have, then perhaps we should lose them. And if we do find ourselves subject to a ruling elite that is no longer accountable to the public, then perhaps we deserve that outcome as well.
When an individual comports himself in such a manner that he cannot handle his own freedom and uses it to violate the freedoms of others we, as a society, restrain him in either a prison or a mental institution.
Similarly, if we as a society continue to demonstrate that we cannot handle the rights that those before us had no problem dealing with, maybe it's time to extinguish those rights and replace them with some sort of "adult supervision". But if we do decide to go down such a road , let's do it with our eyes wide open knowing that we will not longer be truly free. And maybe we deserve it.
1
as the saying goes, "with great power comes great responsibility".
This certainly does not seem to apply to the police and other creatures of the government who seem to have the power of life or death over "ordinary" people.
This certainly does not seem to apply to the police and other creatures of the government who seem to have the power of life or death over "ordinary" people.
2
This is a problem of self-control, not gun control. If this man would have exercised a minimum of self control in his personal life, behavior and professional career, he would still have a job and this would have never happened.
He would have passed any background check scheme ever proposed because not one single person in his life ever reported his behavior to the proper authorities. He had never been declared a mental defective by a court and even if he had been declared mentally ill, the state of Virginia does not report that fact to the NICS system.
Like so many killers, he was an enraged socialist who had been brainwashed to believe he was being persecuted for his race, gender or perceived gender or some other aspect of his person that had absolutely nothing to do with his behavior problems. Instead of blaming George Bush (as his mentor does to this very day), he blamed other people. In the end he chose the path of intolerance and hate, as so many armed democrats do.
Vester was the hate filled racist in this story and all of the misery he had in his life was his fault.
He would have passed any background check scheme ever proposed because not one single person in his life ever reported his behavior to the proper authorities. He had never been declared a mental defective by a court and even if he had been declared mentally ill, the state of Virginia does not report that fact to the NICS system.
Like so many killers, he was an enraged socialist who had been brainwashed to believe he was being persecuted for his race, gender or perceived gender or some other aspect of his person that had absolutely nothing to do with his behavior problems. Instead of blaming George Bush (as his mentor does to this very day), he blamed other people. In the end he chose the path of intolerance and hate, as so many armed democrats do.
Vester was the hate filled racist in this story and all of the misery he had in his life was his fault.
5
I watched the video from the gunman's so-called "body camera" which has been taken down. It is a strange video. I thought it was some kind of a joke, a fake or some kind of scam. Has the video been analyzed by objective forensic experts inside and outside the country? I believe in gun disarmament, and am big on gun ban all together. But this video is strange. The gunman is very close but the women do not notice him. He points a gun less than eight feet from them and they do not notice him. Then he puts the gun down and then raises it slowly towards them, and they notice nothing. The camera man actually turns away, almost like he is avoiding something, or is on cue. The second time around when the shots are heard the woman is actually seen running in her heals with what sounds like blanks that produce white fume. If she is hit by four bullets or more up close she is going to be falling...not running fast screaming on her heels. And the hand of the shooter is very white (not just light skinned). It is a strange video and I though it was some kind of a joke, a fake or a scam. Has the video been analyzed by objective forensic experts inside and outside the country? I believe in gun disarmament, and am big on gun ban all together. But this video is strange. Kindly check it out yourself.
1
Why can’t we have sensible rules and regulations with regards to the use and ownership of guns?
We require a driver’s license to operate a motor vehicle legally.
We require cars to have a registration and to pass certain safety/operating standards to legally operate on the road.
Why can we not do the same thing with gun ownership?
Think about the benefits: license and registration fees to pay for the costs associated with the function, additional law enforcement, additional training for responsible gun ownership and usage, multiple opportunities for law enforcement to keep guns out of the hands of people who should not own them, serious penalties for those possessing guns without proper license & registration. 300 million plus guns multiplied by a $10 license and registration = $3 Billion. That’s 60,000 jobs paying $50 K a year.
No downside to those good law abiding citizens who want to own guns.
Troubling that our elected representatives will not do anything on this emotional issue.
Senator Rob Portman changed his position on Gay Marriage after his son came out as gay.
How would any elected representative with school age children or grandchildren react if they were directly affected by a New Town or Sandy Hook? I cannot imagine after that kind of experience anyone would be so callous to wrap bacon around the barrel of a machine gun, fire it, eat the bacon and air the recorded event on television.
We require a driver’s license to operate a motor vehicle legally.
We require cars to have a registration and to pass certain safety/operating standards to legally operate on the road.
Why can we not do the same thing with gun ownership?
Think about the benefits: license and registration fees to pay for the costs associated with the function, additional law enforcement, additional training for responsible gun ownership and usage, multiple opportunities for law enforcement to keep guns out of the hands of people who should not own them, serious penalties for those possessing guns without proper license & registration. 300 million plus guns multiplied by a $10 license and registration = $3 Billion. That’s 60,000 jobs paying $50 K a year.
No downside to those good law abiding citizens who want to own guns.
Troubling that our elected representatives will not do anything on this emotional issue.
Senator Rob Portman changed his position on Gay Marriage after his son came out as gay.
How would any elected representative with school age children or grandchildren react if they were directly affected by a New Town or Sandy Hook? I cannot imagine after that kind of experience anyone would be so callous to wrap bacon around the barrel of a machine gun, fire it, eat the bacon and air the recorded event on television.
What happened yesterday is yet another sad example of the darker side of an open and free society. There are never enough prayers and words of condolences for any person who's life was taken by a firearm, a drunk driver, self-inflicted or any other means. It's just a deeply sad day for so many.
1
As a Muslim Africa-American citizen, Imam, and author of the book "We Fundamentalists," I believe that Mr. Vester L. Flanagan just snaped! This is what happens when "Black lives does not matter!" He felt that he was being harassed, bullied, and discriminated for being black and gay! Yes, that church shooting at Charleston S.C. on those black peoples had an affect on his viewpoint of racism here in America! Indeed, Mr. Flanagan was a black journalist who had a history of racial grievances on the job working with white journalists whom he felt was racist. Yes, he filed a complaint with the "Equal Employment Opportunity Commission" against (WTWC/WDBJ) because he got fired from his job on petty social reasons of behavior, but that complaint got nowhere in this white media business! So, yes, he just snaped!! Because "Black lives lives does not Matter!" The problem is not the gun! The problem is the lack of social graces and racial grievances in our world of white media and journalism here in America. Which tells me that for sure that we do not have a "Free Press"- that`s telling it like it is!
6
The National Rifle Association with its glib officials would seem to be the logical ones to put in the dock to answer for all the killing by demented people who have obtained weapons through all the loopholes the NRA has developed and supported through its "responsible citizens" hoopla. And Congress who feeds at the lobbying trough of the NRA needs to shoulder equal blame.
1
Tamir Rice, Walter Scott, John Crawford and Samuel DuBose shooting deaths by professional trained cops were caught on film. Eric Garner's death by cops was also filmed. They were innocent civilians. They were not journalists nor politicians nor armed nor mentally ill.
This shooting was a tragedy because they were human. Rather than journalists or white or filmed or shot by a black man. Their killer may have been mentally ill. His suicide by gun conforms to the reality that 2/3rds( 22,000) of the 33,000 Americans who die from gunshot every year are suicides. Workplace violence is much less prominent a problem than family and friend violence.
This shooting was a tragedy because they were human. Rather than journalists or white or filmed or shot by a black man. Their killer may have been mentally ill. His suicide by gun conforms to the reality that 2/3rds( 22,000) of the 33,000 Americans who die from gunshot every year are suicides. Workplace violence is much less prominent a problem than family and friend violence.
2
World watches horrified! Traveling in Asia, people are in disbelief that Anericans love to kill their own, spare no one. How are they any different from ISIS terrorists terrorizing fellow human beings on Social media, in broad daylight?
1
Please do not print the murderer's name. Refer to him as person X, or something equally anonymous. Talk about the victims. I don't care about the murderer. I never want to see his picture or hear his name. Keep him as obscure as he was yesterday.
4
I don't condone the gunman's actions. However, the TV station that fired the suspect could be covering up its own racism, saying that it fired him because he was looking for statements to be offended at and that no one could corroborate his accusations and that the station did not find any discrimination. Firing the suspect, because in the manager's opinion, the suspect was looking for statements to be offended at - in and of itself - appears to be per se retaliation, since the suspect was engaging in protected activity complaining about perceived discrimination.
Does one actually expect that when the TV station says that it did not find discrimination, that it would be impartial and unbiased? Just because the suspect did not have any witnesses to corroborate his statements, does this justify the TV station minimizing his accusations?
Did the TV station condone racism and discrimination against the suspect? If so, this is quite common, as it also happens under the federal government, particularly under the Obama administration.
Think about what condoning discrimination does to the victims of discrimination? This does not excuse the suspect's actions. But condoning discrimination creates an environment of impunity. This suspect wanted his own justice and took revenge.
Does one actually expect that when the TV station says that it did not find discrimination, that it would be impartial and unbiased? Just because the suspect did not have any witnesses to corroborate his statements, does this justify the TV station minimizing his accusations?
Did the TV station condone racism and discrimination against the suspect? If so, this is quite common, as it also happens under the federal government, particularly under the Obama administration.
Think about what condoning discrimination does to the victims of discrimination? This does not excuse the suspect's actions. But condoning discrimination creates an environment of impunity. This suspect wanted his own justice and took revenge.
4
are you serious? even if someone perceives that they are being discriminated against, and even if there is some truth to that perception --- does not justify in any way shape or form murder. period.
3
I think about the consequences of hateful, race-baiting demagoguery. I think about that a lot.
3
His behavior was problematic at more than one workplace. He was angry because he was dismissed due to his aggressive and confrontational behavior off-camera and the station subsequently hired a young lady who had been an intern during his tenure as a full-time reporter. His behavior was not only racist, but I believe it was sexist, as well. As a man, he apparently felt that he was more entitled to the job than she. Can you imagine what chaos would ensue were people to be hired and fired on the basis of someone claiming that his or her rival for the job had called him or her a name? The station and the EEOC investigated and found no basis for his claims, in any case.
1
Restricting handguns, and addressing the plights of the mentally ill are admirable and worthy of the nation's attention, but racism is an even bigger issue requiring even more immediate attention. Given history, why is it so difficult for white Americans to fathom that an employer in Roanoke, Virginia, could foster a horrible racist environment that impacts its black employees? If the charge were sexism, or LGBTQIA rights, many segments of white America would be all over it. But when black Americans attempt to discuss racism and its harms, they are chided and maligned for even broaching the subject with broad, denigrating dismissals, absurdist commentary about race being a card, and worse, having to hear milquetoast bootstrap stories from self-exemplifying, history-challenged, clueless benefactors of the disease. Perhaps Mr. Flanagan did suffer from mental illness. Or, like many black Americans, more likely Mr. Flanagan was just tired.
2
Racism at the workplace is never a valid excuse for executing someone on live TV...ever
Our lack of racial dialogue is because whites do not acknowledge racism present and in the past but its rather how the conversation is being framed. In order to talk about race whites are en masse are required to have to first admitted that just by being born white they are racist. The problem with race discourse and attitudes today is being manufactured not so much by acts of injustice or lake or civil rights but rather by activist who are framing, successfully, the debate by using racial theories that put the cart before the horse and seek to label and treat entire groups of people as criminals guilty and ready to be sentenced for the crimes of their ancestors. If there is to be a honest debate on race in the US we are going to have to learn how to engage each other without requiring an admission of guilt or innocence from those with whom we are seeking dialogue.
Our lack of racial dialogue is because whites do not acknowledge racism present and in the past but its rather how the conversation is being framed. In order to talk about race whites are en masse are required to have to first admitted that just by being born white they are racist. The problem with race discourse and attitudes today is being manufactured not so much by acts of injustice or lake or civil rights but rather by activist who are framing, successfully, the debate by using racial theories that put the cart before the horse and seek to label and treat entire groups of people as criminals guilty and ready to be sentenced for the crimes of their ancestors. If there is to be a honest debate on race in the US we are going to have to learn how to engage each other without requiring an admission of guilt or innocence from those with whom we are seeking dialogue.
3
If there are 16 times more gun homicides per capita in the US than in a typical European country, one can conclude that 1) there are more guns per capita in the US or 2) using the "killer was crazy" explanation for US gun homicides that Americans are 16 times crazier than Europeans. Either way, there's something wrong with the US.
3
The only thing worse than this horrendous tragedy, is the detailed coverage of it ad nauseam to millions who gobble it up. Yes, handgun availability is a problem. Yes, mental health needs better awareness. But the fact that this type of event gets the coverage it does only helps insure the next deranged psycho with an axe to grind and a death wish and some social media savvy, will feel safe in the knowledge that his word will be heard and his face will be known. Congratulations to all the major media outlets for publishing every possible available detail of this loser's life (as if that truly helps anyone)Get ready for the copy cats, because here they come and we are all culpable for glamorizing it on the front pages of papers and magazines and tweeting and sharing it on social media.
3
No physical evidence that anything happened, in other words nothing happened that anybody can prove, or has any proof, there are no dead bodies, no proof of dead bodies.
1
Driving back to Vermont, from Ashville, NC on I-81 North, as you enter Virginia from Tennessee, there is a large building set back from the road, but very visible, with this written on the side facing the highway in large black letters: "We believe in God. We sell guns." That captures the essence of most of America, south of the Mason-Dixon Line, in my humble opinion. This is akin to the concept that the more data available regarding the failure of neo-liberal economic policies the more entrenched and accepted it becomes as the answer for everything. The more shootings, the more guns. Something is wrong with this whole thing. I am numb.
2
This was not raced based actually. It was a totally disappointed, disenfranchised individual who went postal. We was able to use racism as an incidental adjunct to his other complaints.
3
Lapses in the liberal call to abolish capital punishment are evident.
1
Beyond all the arguments about stricter gun control, mental health issues, racism, et al. we have to come to grips with why emotionally disturbed people go to this extreme. I will hazard a guess that long after the victims names are no longer remembered, Mr. Flanagan's name will be, due to the horrendous way in which he planned and carefully executed his grisly act on TV and social media.
Therein lies the biggest problem. Another nameless person who idolized killers that came before him... knowing that by his own evil act, he will forever be remembered. I don't know what the answer to this instant "celebrity" is, but we must find a way to stop making monsters famous for killing innocent people.
Therein lies the biggest problem. Another nameless person who idolized killers that came before him... knowing that by his own evil act, he will forever be remembered. I don't know what the answer to this instant "celebrity" is, but we must find a way to stop making monsters famous for killing innocent people.
5
In the NYT (and particularly in the comment section):
white on black shooting= white privilege, vile racism, black lives matter and the confederate flag must come down from the South Carolina statehouse
black (or illegal immigrant)on white shooting= a demand for gun control in this country(look at these comments for yourselves).
white on black shooting= white privilege, vile racism, black lives matter and the confederate flag must come down from the South Carolina statehouse
black (or illegal immigrant)on white shooting= a demand for gun control in this country(look at these comments for yourselves).
6
When really this was not raced based actually. It was a totally disappointed, disenfranchised individual who went postal. We was able to use racism as an incidental adjunct to his other complaints.
1
how is not treated as "hate crime" is beyond me.
4
this is a race based hate crime. Period.
1
I am not a member of the NRA, and do not agree with some of their positions, but they are just an organization fighting as hard for what they believe in as the organizations dedicated to preventing all citizens from owning firearms. Given a choice I side with the NRA.
No one can explain just what reasonable restriction on gun ownership would have prevented this tragedy. Do we really believe that the perpetrator was not angry enough to purchase a shotgun? He bought his gun more than a month ago, no cooling off period would work, as time went on he did not get cooler, he just got angrier.
Hindsight is always 20/20, but the only thing that may have made a difference would have been the filing of charges when he refused to leave the TV station and/or a restraining order that MIGHT have impacted his ability to buy a gun. However, as soon as he used the racial prejudice charge you know people started to cower and wanted no part of those two options.
This is no more typical of the vast majority of gun owners than those driving under the influence are typical of all drivers. Good laws are not based on these kinds of crimes, they are thankfully rare even in our society where we are loath to force anyone into treatment for mental problems or anger management. We just pass them on to the next unsuspecting group.
No one can explain just what reasonable restriction on gun ownership would have prevented this tragedy. Do we really believe that the perpetrator was not angry enough to purchase a shotgun? He bought his gun more than a month ago, no cooling off period would work, as time went on he did not get cooler, he just got angrier.
Hindsight is always 20/20, but the only thing that may have made a difference would have been the filing of charges when he refused to leave the TV station and/or a restraining order that MIGHT have impacted his ability to buy a gun. However, as soon as he used the racial prejudice charge you know people started to cower and wanted no part of those two options.
This is no more typical of the vast majority of gun owners than those driving under the influence are typical of all drivers. Good laws are not based on these kinds of crimes, they are thankfully rare even in our society where we are loath to force anyone into treatment for mental problems or anger management. We just pass them on to the next unsuspecting group.
1
Wake up. The NRA went from a sportsman organization to a lobbying front for an industry. They bought my legislator and probably yours. That is not OK.
If I am on the jury deciding the guilt or innocence of someone accused of killing an NRA member, I will acquit.
3
I was spared from bearing witness to a second senseless shooting in this region in the last eight years by the shear luck of channel hopping. I don't want to think about my state of mind if I had relived another shooting. There was a time, long ago and far away, when shootings were rare happenings in distant locales involving one or two individuals. Gun possession has to be changed if we claim to be a civilization. I used to consider advocates of unfettered gun ownership to be cold hearted. Now I consider those advocates of armor-piercing bullets, assault rifles, or unrestricted gun ownership to be cold-blooded. I see no difference between them and those who support extremists in Syria, Nigeria, or Burma shredding the fabric of civilization throughout the world.
4
This man wanted to commit murder, and he had a gun to commit it (the gun that had been purchased legally), 2 + 2 = 4, we get the expected result. Those who defend the free sale of weapons do not realize that the problem is not in guns, the problem is in people who use it. We can not make all the people fair and reasonable, sad but true, so we should ban guns.
1
This is what you wanted, isn't it, New York Times? No more taking it sitting down, no more waiting for the other side's weak, crypto-racist excuses - as Deray McKesson put it on Twitter yesterday, somewhat precipitously, "whiteness" can always find an excuse.
No, now good progressives, especially the ones who live on the Upper West Side and the more brolicious parts of Brooklyn, will support violence as an understandable response to racism. We can't wait for facts, because they'll just be distorted by the racist status quo. Burn down the businesses, fire the gun. And try to be photogenic, please.
So now you've got what you wanted. Right?
Right?
No, now good progressives, especially the ones who live on the Upper West Side and the more brolicious parts of Brooklyn, will support violence as an understandable response to racism. We can't wait for facts, because they'll just be distorted by the racist status quo. Burn down the businesses, fire the gun. And try to be photogenic, please.
So now you've got what you wanted. Right?
Right?
1
If this man didn't own a gun, he would be someone who needs help. With a gun, he's just a threat with second amendment rights.
Apparently, owning a gun gives you the right to do anything you want and the rest of us living under threat have no corresponding right to be safe from the violent and mentally ill among us.
Virginians -- your state provides free guns to criminals up and down the east coast due to your lax regulations. You provide guns for murders from Maine to Maryland. Get your act together.
Apparently, owning a gun gives you the right to do anything you want and the rest of us living under threat have no corresponding right to be safe from the violent and mentally ill among us.
Virginians -- your state provides free guns to criminals up and down the east coast due to your lax regulations. You provide guns for murders from Maine to Maryland. Get your act together.
9
The silence is beautiful. Could we be making progress regarding our national endemic racism? The past voices of minimalizing, rationalization and justification of what can/has been considered race based tragedy are at the moment muted. Race is still there, but muted. Voices of those who have lived their life under racial injustice are rising above the clap trap of hate. The murder of two innocents and wounding of another is being treated as the crime that it is. The perpetrator's venom is self destructive. The senseless murder of two innocents will only have value if we we imitate their spirit.
Real pride only comes through achievemrnt.
Real pride only comes through achievemrnt.
1
After the Giffords shooting it was all Sarah Palin and the Tea Party. After the Charleston church shootings it was all racist organizations and confederate heroes' statues and flags, which came down across the South. After the Virginia shootings its all the cause of the mechanical devices used by the killer.
2
Sad, sad, sad. Of course, the mental illness issue gets trotted out. What is truly insane is the fact that there are 270,000,000 guns in private hands in the US. That is the true mental illness: the US is the greatest nuthouse of the civilized world with 9 out of 10 inmates armed.
3
An ex-broadcaster seeks revenge. Two specific individuals were shot and killed. The broadcaster claimed racism and workplace grievances. No one is able to tie in the reasons why he chose those specific individuals. No investigations were indicated as to why he might have done this, even though he'd written a 20p. document.
The conclusion this news piece wants you to believe: He is a madman.
Where is the full story here? Where are the rest of the pieces? Why wasn't there a better effort made to obtain it? We know two people were killed when they should not have been. But the real problem lies in the fact that his grievances were not addressed, but merely brushed off and set aside, even determined to be fabricated. Why would a man educated enough to become a news anchor fabricate evidence of perceived racism in the workplace? What could a person in his position have done to point out the offense so that it was believable to the authorities in charge? To change his situation? To ameliorate his condition? Would it not make sense that a man might get defensive, maybe even provocotive? This is not just a story about mental illness and gun violence. It's also a story about injustice; an injustice that is deeply ingrained in our society and takes on the form of bias and lack of understanding-- either culturally, or systematically.
Justice was not served. Two people lost their lives. I wouldn't be surprised if this case is not an exception.
The conclusion this news piece wants you to believe: He is a madman.
Where is the full story here? Where are the rest of the pieces? Why wasn't there a better effort made to obtain it? We know two people were killed when they should not have been. But the real problem lies in the fact that his grievances were not addressed, but merely brushed off and set aside, even determined to be fabricated. Why would a man educated enough to become a news anchor fabricate evidence of perceived racism in the workplace? What could a person in his position have done to point out the offense so that it was believable to the authorities in charge? To change his situation? To ameliorate his condition? Would it not make sense that a man might get defensive, maybe even provocotive? This is not just a story about mental illness and gun violence. It's also a story about injustice; an injustice that is deeply ingrained in our society and takes on the form of bias and lack of understanding-- either culturally, or systematically.
Justice was not served. Two people lost their lives. I wouldn't be surprised if this case is not an exception.
2
Of course it's not going to be an exception. The man went postal. Despite many attempts to try to help him at that station and others. There is another NYT article reporting on those attempts to help this man. In my opinion they were generous towards him. But he didn't want help. He wanted to seethe. I am always sorry when innocents bear the ramifications of the mentally ill. But I guess they will always be with us.
Its almost sickening how some can turn these murders into proof of the critical race theory idea of injustice. Its clear now that the next phase of the rage movement is going to be one of justifying violence by pointing to supposed racial injustice.
Guns, social media, miniature cameras and people with grievances is a bad combination.
It's especially sad, because gun control is - as always - out of the question. With easy access to guns this sort of acts will happen over and over again.
It's especially sad, because gun control is - as always - out of the question. With easy access to guns this sort of acts will happen over and over again.
2
I don't really know why people do this, I feel bad for the friends and family of the two casualties and of course, Mr. Flanagan. I just have to wonder, If he had a mental illness of some sort, or maybe he was mad at someone or something.
1
For quite some time now a lot of shootings and killings. Sometimes black against black, sometimes white against white, sometimes white against black (or other way around), sometimes one against one, sometimes one against 25 (or other way around), etc.
I'm loosing track of this whole thing. Frankly I'm bored with it all. I'm more a statics freak and would appreciate it NYTIMES if you could give us a professional daily report on the killings. Follow the same formats you do for stock-markets (daily, monthly, annually). Include a map of the USA and location of killings, state population density, etc.
Of course this should become mandatory teaching starting at Middle School - where I live such schools are just across cemeteries so the expression "killing with one stone" has added meaning.
Good luck America, give it a try - time we know our country.
I'm loosing track of this whole thing. Frankly I'm bored with it all. I'm more a statics freak and would appreciate it NYTIMES if you could give us a professional daily report on the killings. Follow the same formats you do for stock-markets (daily, monthly, annually). Include a map of the USA and location of killings, state population density, etc.
Of course this should become mandatory teaching starting at Middle School - where I live such schools are just across cemeteries so the expression "killing with one stone" has added meaning.
Good luck America, give it a try - time we know our country.
two beautiful young lives wasted because of some dirt bag who could not deal with the realities of life.....????
gun laws have nothing to do with this....societal issues should be scrutinized to the fullest extant.
gun laws have nothing to do with this....societal issues should be scrutinized to the fullest extant.
2
There will always be disappointed, disenfranchised people. Some can cope, some can't. This one couldn't. Too bad he just didn't take his own life.
When videos of cops in action were released, many of us spoke of the "miracle" of cellphone cameras. This story makes clear that new recording technology can be a mixed blessing.
2
The news is the news -- grim though it often is. Is the media expected to obscure or ignore the story of a double murder simply because a killer wanted publicity?
1
It does not sound to me as though Mr. Flanagan had ever done anything that would have flagged him on a NICS (i.e., instant background check) list. Hence the problem. You can flag people who have already committed a crime or who have previously been judged mentally defective. How do you recognize when a person with no record of serious arrests or adjudication of mental defect is about to go off the rails? Flanagan was a time bomb waiting to go off, but we only know that in hindsight.
That five minute video of his reporting that the Times linked to yesterday showed him to be a competent and engaging TV personality. What went wrong?
That five minute video of his reporting that the Times linked to yesterday showed him to be a competent and engaging TV personality. What went wrong?
2
Life went wrong. The world would not confirm to him. In his mental state, he couldn't accept that. An aberrant personality.
What we really need is bullet control - without bullets, guns cannot be used to kill
1
The incident is truly tragic, but it is not about gun culture. It certainly will exploited by the left to attack guns and gun owners, even though the firearm was legally purchased, the crime was clearly premeditated, and he apparently had no criminal record. There is no evidence to support the contention that "gun culture" or restriction on the legal ownership of guns will avoid this crime. My family has experienced the loss of one of our children, and I understand their grief. Our loss was due to alcohol poisening.
Gun owners will never capitulate because the left is not interested in reasonable legislation or restriction, as evidenced by this case. They want confiscation, as they always have. They are incrementalist, exploiting every opportunity to move one inch closer. Gun owners know that and will never yield an inch. Here, you have racism, which this administration with this paper's support has exploited at every opportunity, and narcissism, something common in all of these killings...notoriety. This are all products of liberal culture, hollywood, sensationalized killing in the movies, the Zuckerburg effect. This guy had two years to plan and he would have gotten a gun, just like the thugs in Chicago or the recent shooter in Europe, who acquired an AK 47. But the emoting will continue. If it bleeds, it leads, as the media says.
You are not interested in solutions. Until that time, I will always choose the right to protect myself.
Gun owners will never capitulate because the left is not interested in reasonable legislation or restriction, as evidenced by this case. They want confiscation, as they always have. They are incrementalist, exploiting every opportunity to move one inch closer. Gun owners know that and will never yield an inch. Here, you have racism, which this administration with this paper's support has exploited at every opportunity, and narcissism, something common in all of these killings...notoriety. This are all products of liberal culture, hollywood, sensationalized killing in the movies, the Zuckerburg effect. This guy had two years to plan and he would have gotten a gun, just like the thugs in Chicago or the recent shooter in Europe, who acquired an AK 47. But the emoting will continue. If it bleeds, it leads, as the media says.
You are not interested in solutions. Until that time, I will always choose the right to protect myself.
4
First, I'm so sorry that you have had to experience the loss of a child. It is something that no one can even pretend to understand unless you have experienced it. I never comment on these boards but I did see your comment and want to reply. I think there does need to be a compromise by those on the left and right and in the middle of the gun issue. You mentioned that the gun control side is not interested in reasonable legislation. What would be considered reasonable by the right? After Newtown it seemed that reasonable legislation was introduced and almost passed but the Senate did not ultimately pass it. http://mobile.nytimes.com/2013/04/18/us/politics/senate-obama-gun-contro...
This seemed to be a common sense approach to try to close some loopholes and just try to keep guns and ammunition out of the hands of someone who should not have it. I certainly don't pretend to know the answer to this question. But in my lifetime (I am 42) and a former news reporte, I have seen gun violence continue to escalate as does the power of the NRA and it scares me. It makes me wonder what's next, if our politicians can't come together after 20 children and 6 adults are gunned down and slaughtered, when will they? Now two more families will bury two young people cut down by a guy with a gun. I truly hope and pray that our country will vote people into office on both sides of the aisle who will find the answer to get some laws in place to protect us all.
This seemed to be a common sense approach to try to close some loopholes and just try to keep guns and ammunition out of the hands of someone who should not have it. I certainly don't pretend to know the answer to this question. But in my lifetime (I am 42) and a former news reporte, I have seen gun violence continue to escalate as does the power of the NRA and it scares me. It makes me wonder what's next, if our politicians can't come together after 20 children and 6 adults are gunned down and slaughtered, when will they? Now two more families will bury two young people cut down by a guy with a gun. I truly hope and pray that our country will vote people into office on both sides of the aisle who will find the answer to get some laws in place to protect us all.
1
Booooo. Liberals don't like conservatives paranoia which has resulted in this gun crazy culture. I don't want to confiscate all the guns, I go for some reasonable regulations. However, that is not the issue here. And, by the way, this wasn't racism either. It was a mentally ill person going postal. Claims of racial discrimination, it appears to me, were the convenient excuse for poor behavior at work, documented by his employers, plural.
At least this maniac had the sense to kill himself and save us the spectacle of enduring his trial and hearing his pathetic excuses, not to mention the cost of incarcerating him for the next 50 years.
5
when are the citizens of this country going to organize a major protest against NRA and our leaders participate?? This will never improve as long as they have power. It's a daunting task but it's imperative we take action against this rogue "organization" or rather more like terrorist group who clearly has a grip on everything that happens in this country.
1
Once again, a gun is used in a premeditated slaying.
This is a story, as is so frequently the case in this country, about guns. Parker and Ward were murdered with a handgun, and Virginia has very permissive handgun laws. In fact, since the massacre at Virginia Tech, in 2007, approximately an hour away from yesterday's shooting site, the state’s laws have become ever weaker. In 2012, for example, Virginia lifted a restriction that limited residents from buying more than one handgun a month.
Gun-control laws correlate with a decrease in gun violence. When access to guns is restricted, deaths by guns decline. According to one thorough study, the number of gun homicides fell by a quarter in Washington, D.C., after it passed highly restrictive handgun laws. The lawmakers of Virginia, however, view the issues a different way—as do most members of Congress.
This is a story, as is so frequently the case in this country, about guns. Parker and Ward were murdered with a handgun, and Virginia has very permissive handgun laws. In fact, since the massacre at Virginia Tech, in 2007, approximately an hour away from yesterday's shooting site, the state’s laws have become ever weaker. In 2012, for example, Virginia lifted a restriction that limited residents from buying more than one handgun a month.
Gun-control laws correlate with a decrease in gun violence. When access to guns is restricted, deaths by guns decline. According to one thorough study, the number of gun homicides fell by a quarter in Washington, D.C., after it passed highly restrictive handgun laws. The lawmakers of Virginia, however, view the issues a different way—as do most members of Congress.
3
Reading the book "Bury My Heart At Wounded Knee", made me realize just how extensive the senseless selfish killings and injustices have been in the US for a very long time. We breath and breed death everywhere while getting all worked up about how much more Christian we are than someone else, and how the killers are always the bad guys, except when they are us.
Until we throw our guns away, vote only for civil socially concerned politicians, and demand the media to focus on and promote socially and environmentally friendly activities, we will drive our nation to worse violence and madness.
PBS is not perfect, but try it. Its more thoughtful, thought provoking and friendly than most.
Until we throw our guns away, vote only for civil socially concerned politicians, and demand the media to focus on and promote socially and environmentally friendly activities, we will drive our nation to worse violence and madness.
PBS is not perfect, but try it. Its more thoughtful, thought provoking and friendly than most.
2
We now know that the mentally ill think a gun is the way out of relationship problems and job gripes. And guns are easy to get. Connect the dots.
We need legislators that will do the right thing. It may cost you your job- our Senator John Morse got crucified by the NRA and recalled thanks to their ugly ugly sliming, but he helped put background checks in place after the Aurora slaughter and the law stood.
Guts are in short supply in Congress.
We need legislators that will do the right thing. It may cost you your job- our Senator John Morse got crucified by the NRA and recalled thanks to their ugly ugly sliming, but he helped put background checks in place after the Aurora slaughter and the law stood.
Guts are in short supply in Congress.
4
This was a racist hate crime, an African-American killing two white people over alleged but unproven bias. African-American racism towards white and Asian Americans is a fact and should be addressed in all opinion articles in the media.
4
No, this guy was mentally ill and disappointed and disenfranchised. Race and sexual orientation racked his mind. But it just as well could have been a boss and/or a romantic rejection that drove him off the deep end. He went postal and after easy targets.
Sometimes the racial grievance mongering of people like Sharpton, the Black Lives Matter people, and Obama (don't you just love the racial healing we have had under him?) has an effect.
3
I'll say it again. This guy went postal. He could just as well have been white.
Sharpton has become bore. The Black Lives Matter movement is having positive effects (ie bringing to light police departments finding themselves with fines). There can't be change without agitation. You need to understand that. And, expecting President Obama to heal race relations is an impractical and unrealistic expectation. Politicians after all represent differing opinions.
Sharpton has become bore. The Black Lives Matter movement is having positive effects (ie bringing to light police departments finding themselves with fines). There can't be change without agitation. You need to understand that. And, expecting President Obama to heal race relations is an impractical and unrealistic expectation. Politicians after all represent differing opinions.
Is this just another excuse for an old man to whine about Obama? I think not.
My comments will probably not be published because I am a Black man who loves America, serves my country and believes in American values.
Black community, Vester Lee Flanagan is on us. Period.
The NRA didn't pull the trigger, our failed, self-absorbed, me-first, get rich quick, celebrity chasing Black "leaders" did.
Flanagan actually thought, given the racial climate portrayed 24/7 here in America as "White people bad, Black people oppressed" that he was doing the Black community a solid. Evening the score from Charleston. Settling the Michael Brown controversy.
Vester Lee Flanagan gunned down two innocent White people, after penning a rambling manifesto of racial hate. Now here's the part nobody wants to touch. Flanagan was disciplined by WDBJ in Nov 2012 for wearing an Obama logo on the air apparently. Vester Flanagan isn't the first person in the Black community to say the things he said in that manifesto. If we had a real President in the WH, Flanagan would be the last.
As a Black community we have to STOP glorifying this crazed, thug behavior and the delusional eye for an eye nonsense that sparks these tragedies. But first we as a Black community have to admit our role in allowing things to get this far. The conversation on race that should have happened, didn't. And here we are. Again.
Black community, Vester Lee Flanagan is on us. Period.
The NRA didn't pull the trigger, our failed, self-absorbed, me-first, get rich quick, celebrity chasing Black "leaders" did.
Flanagan actually thought, given the racial climate portrayed 24/7 here in America as "White people bad, Black people oppressed" that he was doing the Black community a solid. Evening the score from Charleston. Settling the Michael Brown controversy.
Vester Lee Flanagan gunned down two innocent White people, after penning a rambling manifesto of racial hate. Now here's the part nobody wants to touch. Flanagan was disciplined by WDBJ in Nov 2012 for wearing an Obama logo on the air apparently. Vester Flanagan isn't the first person in the Black community to say the things he said in that manifesto. If we had a real President in the WH, Flanagan would be the last.
As a Black community we have to STOP glorifying this crazed, thug behavior and the delusional eye for an eye nonsense that sparks these tragedies. But first we as a Black community have to admit our role in allowing things to get this far. The conversation on race that should have happened, didn't. And here we are. Again.
8
DC Barrister - I truly value your many comments and agree wholeheartedly with much of what you write, however in this case, I have to respectfully disagree with your spin on this joker's motivation. He was plain nuts and had serious mental health problems along ago, way before the Michael Brown situation and the massacre at the Charleston church. He was fired from his last job 2 years ago and has been plotting revenge since. Sane and rational people don't plot and track down former co-workers to only murder them in cold blood and then brag and post videos of the heinous acts on the internet.
This mentally ill individual did not "take one for the team" in this case. He was just crazy and two innocent lives were taken because of it. Using race as an excuse or justification for his actions is pure nonsense in this case.
This mentally ill individual did not "take one for the team" in this case. He was just crazy and two innocent lives were taken because of it. Using race as an excuse or justification for his actions is pure nonsense in this case.
2
DCBarrister: Community control of gun regulations is precisely the solution. But neither you nor Mr. Obama will empower local government to control the ownership and use of guns in their communities. Obama wants a federal or national policy implemented for enforcing restrictions on our 2nd Amendment. Do you know when individual mass shootings were rare in our history, unless by organized criminals? It was pre-1950 when there were no background checks other than a sales tax and local court record available to a Sheriff or Police Chief, who vetted gun owners. Our big federal government, Democratic or Republican, doesn't enforce local government regulations very well. When it does, local communities suffer.
Marge is right, DCBarrister. This guy went postal. Over a long period of time. He could just have easily been white. His "grievances" were racism and sexual orientation coupled with insecurity and anger. Yes, he might have had delusions of grandeur. What sociopath doesn't? Don't put this on your community.
2
Neville M. mentions "humanity". The breakdown of humanity is going to grow. exponentially, as long as population increases. There are way too many people in the world. Over population has been a concern by many who study the problems this can bring. Too many of any one species and there is a general breakdown. Life becomes very cheap. We are already there. Look at the three thousand a day fleeing Syria..... and nobody wants them. Why does the media ignore what many scientist feel is the biggest problem,.....well...in the world?
There will be much talk from everyone, the president on down, about gun control. But just like Sandy Hook and all the others that make politicians stand up and promise change, nothing will happen except a sharp rise in gun sales.
There will be much talk from everyone, the president on down, about gun control. But just like Sandy Hook and all the others that make politicians stand up and promise change, nothing will happen except a sharp rise in gun sales.
4
Another senseless tragedy, not about gun violence, but about mental illness and workplace discrimination (perceived or real). Stricter gun laws would not have prevented this person from getting a gun.
3
Yes, actually they would have.
details?
How is that, Kay Johnson? There was nothing to stop him from getting a gun.
The only people who can bring gun control to the United States are the people of the United States. If enough people demanded a referendum on the issue across the country and demanded that their senators and congress representatives at least discussed the possibility of a referendum then something might happen.
I actually think most people in the US do want gun control and America can hardly call itself a democracy if gun lobbyists can decide what is and is not legal with regards to the purchase, training and handling of firearms. I simply can't believe this sort of thing happens so frequently in the US.
In the mean-time, I think the West generally needs to take a hard look at what our collective popular culture says about us as a civilization-not just the US. Some of the most popular programmes exported from the US across the world right now-Game of Thrones, Walking Dead and so forth are unbelievably violent and are being consumed as entertainment. I'm not one of those people who thinks violence on tv makes people violent, what I'm saying is that the amount of war, shootings, horror, gore and chaos, which is now considered "normal" popular entertainment really says something about ourselves. People weren't shooting up cinema-goers, interviewers and school children en masse when The Waltons was pulling in 20 million viewers.
Why, as we become more "advanced" technologically is the world becoming more violent and awful?
I actually think most people in the US do want gun control and America can hardly call itself a democracy if gun lobbyists can decide what is and is not legal with regards to the purchase, training and handling of firearms. I simply can't believe this sort of thing happens so frequently in the US.
In the mean-time, I think the West generally needs to take a hard look at what our collective popular culture says about us as a civilization-not just the US. Some of the most popular programmes exported from the US across the world right now-Game of Thrones, Walking Dead and so forth are unbelievably violent and are being consumed as entertainment. I'm not one of those people who thinks violence on tv makes people violent, what I'm saying is that the amount of war, shootings, horror, gore and chaos, which is now considered "normal" popular entertainment really says something about ourselves. People weren't shooting up cinema-goers, interviewers and school children en masse when The Waltons was pulling in 20 million viewers.
Why, as we become more "advanced" technologically is the world becoming more violent and awful?
5
Today, we wean our children on violent video games, music and movies and then wonder why so many grow up homicidal. As long as we continue to make cultural heroes out of recording artists whose lyrics promote violence and heap praise on movie producers and directors who have made violence the new pornography we cannot hope for a non-violent society. It would be interesting to see which movie star or director has the highest body count. Everyone agrees that movies such as “To Kill a Mockingbird” have beneficial effects on social behavior, so why do so many people argue that movies can’t have detrimental effects on social behavior. We shouldn’t censor movies that glorify or promote violence, but we should not reward people who make them with acclaim either. Gun control advocates are fond of pointing out that countries with fewer guns have lower homicide rates, but these countries also have few stabbing and beating deaths.
1
The problem is that "free artistic license" under the banner of "liberty and individual rights" (plus the capitalistic free markets) started pushing the boundaries of what used to be considered "decent," "acceptable," and common community values 40+ years ago.
The public was sold that "violent movies/shows/games/lyrics/etc. doesn't result in violence," wrapped up in the flag of freedom of expression and artistic license and liberty. The tide of public opinion shifted when it became more important to be PC than common sensical.
How can wholesale desensitization to depicted violence NOT result in more acceptance when the greater society passively accepts it, if not actively condones it in some quarters?
We are reaping what we allowed to be sowed.
The public was sold that "violent movies/shows/games/lyrics/etc. doesn't result in violence," wrapped up in the flag of freedom of expression and artistic license and liberty. The tide of public opinion shifted when it became more important to be PC than common sensical.
How can wholesale desensitization to depicted violence NOT result in more acceptance when the greater society passively accepts it, if not actively condones it in some quarters?
We are reaping what we allowed to be sowed.
1
Could and would the NYTimes investigate whether Vester Lee Flanagan II obtained his degree and subsequent employments at multiple stations because of AA policies at those institutions? It is difficult to believe such a disturbed and perturbed individual have such an easy time finding job within his field after repeatedly being fired for aggressive behavior.
9
That's pretty crass, AmateurHistorian. There must be a racial angle, and you're determined to find it, eh?
2
So, how come when Dylan Roof shoots up that church it was racism. When a black guy shoot up white people, it's 'mental health'?
7
Dylan Roof stated he hated black people and had to kill them because they were black. I haven't read that this nut hated white people. Maybe you could work on that angle, Cindy, and let us know what you figure out.
3
In both cases, it may have been some of both.
However, in the Charleston case, nothing has come out suggesting Dylan Roof had anything other than delusions regarding the terrible things black people were supposedly doing that he needed to put a stop to. He hated blacks for being black. He didn't know the people he shot, he had no association with the church. He picked a black church to shoot people at.
In the Virginia case, we don't know whether it's possible the shooter had any legitimate grievances with the station. But we do know that he had a history of actual interactions with the station - he had had in the past a professional relationship with them, and there was a long, documented history of his complaints and accusations. Right or wrong, he had perceived direct grievances with them. It wasn't random black-on-white violence, as Dylan Roof's act was random white-on-black violence.
However, in the Charleston case, nothing has come out suggesting Dylan Roof had anything other than delusions regarding the terrible things black people were supposedly doing that he needed to put a stop to. He hated blacks for being black. He didn't know the people he shot, he had no association with the church. He picked a black church to shoot people at.
In the Virginia case, we don't know whether it's possible the shooter had any legitimate grievances with the station. But we do know that he had a history of actual interactions with the station - he had had in the past a professional relationship with them, and there was a long, documented history of his complaints and accusations. Right or wrong, he had perceived direct grievances with them. It wasn't random black-on-white violence, as Dylan Roof's act was random white-on-black violence.
1
Ehh, maybe because Dylann Roof said he targeted them because they were "black" and wanted to start a "race war"? No?
1
Stop publicizing the name of this murderer.
It gives him, after the fact, the infamy and notoriety that he was seeking, and will likely motivate copycat murders.
It gives him, after the fact, the infamy and notoriety that he was seeking, and will likely motivate copycat murders.
6
It's a recurrent theme from the Left that the Second Amendment is only about militias. But here is a quote from "The Address and Reasons of Dissent of the Minority of the Convention of Pennsylvania to their Constituents, December 12, 1787," which called for the creation of a Bill of Rights. The significance of this work to the Bill of Rights eventually adopted is shown by the Eighth Amendment's being almost word-for-word its proposal #4.
Proposal #7: "That the people have a right to bear arms for the defense of themselves and their own state, or the United States, or for the purpose of killing game; and no law shall be passed for disarming the people or any of them, unless for crimes committed, or real danger of public injury from individuals; and as standing armies in the time of peace are dangerous to liberty, they ought not to be kept up; and that the military shall be kept under strict subordination to and be governed by the civil powers."
Absent willful blindness, it is very hard not to see this passage as being the source of the Second Amendment, allowing for a perhaps unwise degree of condensation in the interest of brevity. And clearly, the interest here was in protecting an individual right to arms, with the militia figuring in only as a way of avoiding the need for standing armies and not as a sole justification for 'allowing' the possession of arms.
Proposal #7: "That the people have a right to bear arms for the defense of themselves and their own state, or the United States, or for the purpose of killing game; and no law shall be passed for disarming the people or any of them, unless for crimes committed, or real danger of public injury from individuals; and as standing armies in the time of peace are dangerous to liberty, they ought not to be kept up; and that the military shall be kept under strict subordination to and be governed by the civil powers."
Absent willful blindness, it is very hard not to see this passage as being the source of the Second Amendment, allowing for a perhaps unwise degree of condensation in the interest of brevity. And clearly, the interest here was in protecting an individual right to arms, with the militia figuring in only as a way of avoiding the need for standing armies and not as a sole justification for 'allowing' the possession of arms.
"allowing for a perhaps unwise degree of condensation in the interest of brevity"
In their wisdom, as you point out, they were unwise. Or maybe they decided they wanted the law to say something different from what you want.
In their wisdom, as you point out, they were unwise. Or maybe they decided they wanted the law to say something different from what you want.
I have been wondering if Ms. Parker was particularly selected due to her youth, being blond and attractive which in the media world makes them more likely to get coverage. Given the shooters background, he would have been aware of this.
I am so sorry for all the families, friends, and co-workers involved.
Our gun addicted society, and the rules by which it operates has made the murders we witnessed yesterday, and sadly, each and every day so easy. There is no end in sight if rational people cannot work together to change things. The horror this type of mayhem creates increases the fear which then generates even more guns in the hands of our stressed and increasingly unstable populace. Where will it end?
I am so sorry for all the families, friends, and co-workers involved.
Our gun addicted society, and the rules by which it operates has made the murders we witnessed yesterday, and sadly, each and every day so easy. There is no end in sight if rational people cannot work together to change things. The horror this type of mayhem creates increases the fear which then generates even more guns in the hands of our stressed and increasingly unstable populace. Where will it end?
2
It is an unacknowledged truth that many, many murders are committed by people, mainly male, who are mentally ill but PRE-official diagnosis. Most people observing Flanagan, reading of his responses to others, of his actions in his own life, would have easily concluded that he was not behaving like a reasonable person. No one in their right mind would say and do what he did.
No one in their right mind.
Therefore Flanagan was not in his right mind. He was mentally ill. The challenge we face is identifying such people as soon as possible and forcing them to get help before they kill. Because troublesome people are troubled people, and I am willing to bet that not one of them truly wants to be in that dark and lonely place.
Oh, and do not let them have access to guns.
No one in their right mind.
Therefore Flanagan was not in his right mind. He was mentally ill. The challenge we face is identifying such people as soon as possible and forcing them to get help before they kill. Because troublesome people are troubled people, and I am willing to bet that not one of them truly wants to be in that dark and lonely place.
Oh, and do not let them have access to guns.
2
Everything is always easier in 20/20 hindsight.
And, pray tell, how does one decide which "troubled people" are just unhappy, and which are going to commit horrendous acts? Who has the knowledge - or ability - to make such a distinction? There will be no way that kind of discretionary authority will be granted to anyone or any agency while we still have individual rights in this country.
And, pray tell, how does one decide which "troubled people" are just unhappy, and which are going to commit horrendous acts? Who has the knowledge - or ability - to make such a distinction? There will be no way that kind of discretionary authority will be granted to anyone or any agency while we still have individual rights in this country.
1
Stricter gun laws a must, I don't understand why everyone seems to dance around this issue and not address it directly. People bring up "mental health", the convenient excuse for these shootings that seem to have become the norm in the US. Tell me, is the USA the only country in the world with people with poor mental health? Ok even by that argument, and the country is made up of a huge population of mentally ill human beings, doesn't it still make more sense to make guns less accessible either way? Why aren't the mentally ill in other developed countries picking up guns and blowing up anyone they have grievances with. Why why why is this discussion about gun laws such a touchy subject, what does the easy accessibility of guns for all do but kill people and/or their loved ones?
2
Guns, mental health, the NRA...
The scary part is that while little happens policy wise, the 'ante' for these killers keeps going up. Its not enough to shoot a Congresswoman or children or dozens of people in classes or at movie. Now you have to shoot on live television and post it on social media. You think the sickening feeling is bad now? You have to know somewhere out there is a shooter planning something to out do the last one. Donating money to organizations and writing letters to Congress is feeling pretty empty right now. I am so sad for this growing list of families and loved ones that must live through this.
The scary part is that while little happens policy wise, the 'ante' for these killers keeps going up. Its not enough to shoot a Congresswoman or children or dozens of people in classes or at movie. Now you have to shoot on live television and post it on social media. You think the sickening feeling is bad now? You have to know somewhere out there is a shooter planning something to out do the last one. Donating money to organizations and writing letters to Congress is feeling pretty empty right now. I am so sad for this growing list of families and loved ones that must live through this.
3
Another senseless tragedy at the hands of an angry and mentally disturbed man. The need to blame someone is human nature, but it's naïve to believe that banning guns will "fix" things; they will still fall into the hands of those who intend to harm. I think "India's" comments are on target. Guns have been around 'forever'...it's the misuse of them that's rampant. In the 1960s, most little boys had BB or pellet guns. In the 60s and 70s there were NO violent video games, and what we saw on TV was 'censured;' It wasn't the free-for-all it is today. We came home from school to watch "Batman," the "Mickey Mouse Club" and "Truth or Consequences!"
I blame the ever-evolving culture of "political correctness," where parents and teachers are forbidden or discouraged from disciplining kids (I'm NOT talking about beating them!); I blame generations of parents who allow(ed) their kids to buy and play with VIOLENT video games (and movies, music with horrific lyrics); parents and others in society who instill(ed) in our young people hatred against people in another class/race/gender/etc.; and for teaching kids that they are "entitled" to things that they haven't earned through hard work and playing by the rules of civil society. It's our culture - our society - that needs to change, and fast. Teach our young right from wrong, and that life isn't fair - not everyone wins. This culture of entitlement and political correctness is destroying us.
I blame the ever-evolving culture of "political correctness," where parents and teachers are forbidden or discouraged from disciplining kids (I'm NOT talking about beating them!); I blame generations of parents who allow(ed) their kids to buy and play with VIOLENT video games (and movies, music with horrific lyrics); parents and others in society who instill(ed) in our young people hatred against people in another class/race/gender/etc.; and for teaching kids that they are "entitled" to things that they haven't earned through hard work and playing by the rules of civil society. It's our culture - our society - that needs to change, and fast. Teach our young right from wrong, and that life isn't fair - not everyone wins. This culture of entitlement and political correctness is destroying us.
Has Wayne LaPierre decreed yet that it's too soon to talk about another tragedy caused by easy access to guns and we have to wait? Because there never seems to be any down time between these instances in America to discuss our ridiculous gun culture.
4
Again, the root of the problem is missed. We live in a country where violence is entertainment. Our media, from TV to movies is nothing but violence and more violence. These stories along with the images, portray problem solving by using violence. When violence is entertaining, there is a serious flaw in our society. It's not normal! The problem is not guns, it's psychological. If you derive entertainment from watching violence, then there's something seriously wrong with you.
4
Absolute heartbreak.
As I watched/read the past day's coverage, I was only able to focus on the loved ones that were robbed... Both the young man, at the TV station, who is engaged to Alison (who just gave a most stoic address during his interview with CNN, earlier this morning). And, the morning producer who obviously witnessed hell in front of her own eyes. Unbelievably awful.
It may sound silly, but for those that might not solidly empathize or identify, I would, perhaps, suggest listening to "track 1" (lyrics specifically) of the Beach Boys' album "Pet Sounds". You may get a small and tearful glimpse/idea of what dreams and love were just lost forever.
My sincerest condolences to all those directly affected, and to our entire country, for again, allowing senselessly tragic events to continue.
Another shame. on all of us...
As I watched/read the past day's coverage, I was only able to focus on the loved ones that were robbed... Both the young man, at the TV station, who is engaged to Alison (who just gave a most stoic address during his interview with CNN, earlier this morning). And, the morning producer who obviously witnessed hell in front of her own eyes. Unbelievably awful.
It may sound silly, but for those that might not solidly empathize or identify, I would, perhaps, suggest listening to "track 1" (lyrics specifically) of the Beach Boys' album "Pet Sounds". You may get a small and tearful glimpse/idea of what dreams and love were just lost forever.
My sincerest condolences to all those directly affected, and to our entire country, for again, allowing senselessly tragic events to continue.
Another shame. on all of us...
2
Being an older white heterosexual female I cannot imagine what growing up male, black, and gay must have been like for Vester Lee Flanagan II aka Bryce Williams. But whatever amount of harassment and/or bullying this man was subjected to it does not, in any way, justify what he did.
We live in one of the most violent societies on this earth. There are more than 300 million registered guns out there and God knows how many UNregistered guns as well. Those numbers will only go up as long as there is money to be made selling them to us. And as long as the arms merchants and the NRA "own" our politicians, congress will do nothing more than feign their collective horror at each new act of gun violence. They have proven that time and again as they have failed to act even when one of their own has been a victim.
As long as we live in a society where just about anyone can legally get their hands on a gun we will be faced with these deadly acts of violence. And as long as we live in a society that fails to provide even minimal care for people with mental health issues we will have to deal with mentally unstable gun owners. Get used to it.
We live in one of the most violent societies on this earth. There are more than 300 million registered guns out there and God knows how many UNregistered guns as well. Those numbers will only go up as long as there is money to be made selling them to us. And as long as the arms merchants and the NRA "own" our politicians, congress will do nothing more than feign their collective horror at each new act of gun violence. They have proven that time and again as they have failed to act even when one of their own has been a victim.
As long as we live in a society where just about anyone can legally get their hands on a gun we will be faced with these deadly acts of violence. And as long as we live in a society that fails to provide even minimal care for people with mental health issues we will have to deal with mentally unstable gun owners. Get used to it.
24
"We live in one of the most violent societies on this earth."
Do a Google search for "ISIS."
Do a Google search for "ISIS."
It does appear that our society is getting used to. Whether it's two or 222 or children or seniors, it becomes yesterday's news. The tacit agreement is that no matter how many are killed, it is a price we are willing to pay.
Your comment contains a lot of cynicism and blame. The blame game has contributed to the inability or disinclination of people like Bryce to take responsibility for their actions including admitting mental health problems and seeking help. You state that there is no "mental health" help available and that is just not true. But first one would have to stop blaming others, be it individuals or society at large, for the ills in their lives.
I notice how the NY Times and the BBC have moved on past the race angle that the shooter was trying to make and have focused on guns and workplace violence and mental health. I cant help but wonder if such nuanced approach would have been shown to a white shooter? Black rage is recited time and time again to explain why there is so much anger but maybe that rage is being created ans stoked by activist and other race oriented groups. Maybe it is not organic a byproduct of a unjust civil system. Maybe, just maybe we are seeing so much conflict because the theories that guide the Black Lives Matter and much of the intellectual social criticism, critical race theory, is designed to create conflict and harden positions. If you create a rhetorical scenario where all whites are racist and all blacks are victims you will get these Powder Kegs type of events.
7
Maybe rage is not a byproduct of an unjust civil system?
You think rage is being created by the movements that are fighting institutionalized racism -- and not by the institutions themselves?
Seriously?
Just, wow.
You think rage is being created by the movements that are fighting institutionalized racism -- and not by the institutions themselves?
Seriously?
Just, wow.
Yes, by and large I do not think that most of the rage is authentic. Some may be but most of those, I feel, who are active in the new black rage movement are involved more to a desire of being a part of a movement than from a position of being motivated by personal negative experience with any system.
Dylan Roof - Crazed, racist killer.
Vester Lee Flanagan - Disgruntled employee.
WHAT IS WRONG WITH THIS PICTURE AMERICA?
Until the news media in this country stops this hypocrisy and deals honestly with race, we are all in this mess together.
Vester Lee Flanagan - Disgruntled employee.
WHAT IS WRONG WITH THIS PICTURE AMERICA?
Until the news media in this country stops this hypocrisy and deals honestly with race, we are all in this mess together.
7
Amazing how the Times can't bring itself to headline something like "Disgruntled Black former employee ambushes and kills to White Journalists"
No, for the Times, when a Black kills it's never racism. They won't even identify his race directly. This was clearly a racially motivated killing. If the confederate flag is responsible for Dylan's Roof killing spree than I'd suggest the race hustlers and the media that paint Blacks as victims are equally to blame for Vester Flanagan's actions.
No, for the Times, when a Black kills it's never racism. They won't even identify his race directly. This was clearly a racially motivated killing. If the confederate flag is responsible for Dylan's Roof killing spree than I'd suggest the race hustlers and the media that paint Blacks as victims are equally to blame for Vester Flanagan's actions.
1
There is quite a difference between the Flanagan and Roof. Your comparison is not dealing honestly with race.
3
"Dylan Roof - Crazed, racist killer. Vester Lee Flanagan - Disgruntled employee. WHAT IS WRONG WITH THIS PICTURE ...?
Nothing. Dylan Roof killed people he didn't know, people who actually invited them to join him. He is quoted as saying they were so nice that he almost didn't do it.
Flanagan killed people he knew well and had worked with for a while. While we know nothing yet about the legitimacy of his complaints, he did have specific complaints against them.
Yes, there are racial problems in this country. The characterization of the killers in this instance had nothing to do with those problems.
Nothing. Dylan Roof killed people he didn't know, people who actually invited them to join him. He is quoted as saying they were so nice that he almost didn't do it.
Flanagan killed people he knew well and had worked with for a while. While we know nothing yet about the legitimacy of his complaints, he did have specific complaints against them.
Yes, there are racial problems in this country. The characterization of the killers in this instance had nothing to do with those problems.
3
Why do journalists, particularly Television broadcasters, need guns? How is it that WDBJ-TV Roanoke didn't alert law enforcement when notified of employee Vester Lee Flanagan IV's hostile behavior and workplace threats? Why isn't it standard procedure for Human Relations Depts. to find out whether disruptive employees like Flanagan own a firearm before firing them? Should HR/employee knowledge of employee or student gun ownership be part of any job benefits package?
2
Hate breeds hate. Love breeds love. It's not simple to cultivate either but I agree with others on this thread that the media has a role to play in creating a culture of non-violence. Let's not suppress the truth that these tragedies happen, but let's bring more acts of moral and ethical courage and inspiration to our screens. When Donald Trump and his ilk get to spout such hatred and news media treats it as newsworthy, they add to the culture of hate and violence. Let's hear more about how people create positive change in the world in spite of our differences. Please, journalists, we need you to help create the culture of peace. Condolences to the families and friends and all journalists who bravely report the truth in spite of the risks involved.
Dare we say, gun control?
5
It is time for a million people march to DC to tell our congress and that we need gun control. Get the message to Congress and the NRA.
9
Like most people, my life has had its disappointments. One of the greatest is that I was born in the U.S. How much better it would have been for me had I been born in a more civilized country.
9
When suicide bombers take out innocents in far away lands, we call them radical terrorists. So what do we call those that do the same thing here at home?
Hard to know what to call them, as we'd all like ourselves to believe that we as Americans are so unique and civilized compared to the rest of the world.
Well maybe it just ain't so. And the sooner we realize we're not so special and above the rest, normal life on earth can start to return.
Hard to know what to call them, as we'd all like ourselves to believe that we as Americans are so unique and civilized compared to the rest of the world.
Well maybe it just ain't so. And the sooner we realize we're not so special and above the rest, normal life on earth can start to return.
2
White lives matter says it all.... however wake up and smell the coffee America..there are thousands of mentally ill people out there..no one is safe, no one is immune. There is no logic to be found in their actions, no sense of good or evil in their hearts..just crazy and we need to address the problem and find a solution.
5
There was "logic" in this gunman's mind....at least as far as he was concerned. He is black and gay, and was fired by the TV station. The victims are white and not gay, and their careers are going very well at the station, as well as their social lives. It's so easy to just say, "he was mentally disturbed". He was mentally "angry", (his own word), is what he was. This lovely, rising news woman represented everything that was holding him back in his life. I'm not saying he wasn't a loose canon, to say the least but,......you get my meaning here.
Her father was on TV last night and said, "..it shouldn't have happened to someone like Alison". He also said she was, "pretty and blonde, and had everything going for her", ..yes, that's a quote. As if it would have been Ok if it happened to someone...... not like Alison.....???
Welcome to the new, and extremely complex world of PC, racism, sexism and the "haves and have nots" in todays America.
Her father was on TV last night and said, "..it shouldn't have happened to someone like Alison". He also said she was, "pretty and blonde, and had everything going for her", ..yes, that's a quote. As if it would have been Ok if it happened to someone...... not like Alison.....???
Welcome to the new, and extremely complex world of PC, racism, sexism and the "haves and have nots" in todays America.
1
This man was mentally disturbed but had latched onto the rhetoric of a "race war" spread by those who are trying to destroy the fabric of our society by instilling fear and promoting chaos. A terrorist tactic: get the mentally disturbed to do your dirty work.
9
I don't see any reason we should have stricter gun control laws in this country.
(Written in total sarcasm.)
(Written in total sarcasm.)
9
What will it take "America" for us to get beyond heartfelt tweets and NYT postings decrying these seemingly endless tragic events, to force our elected officials to pass stronger gun legislation. I am not advocating a gunless America, however what can possible be at issue with demanding deeper background checks and an extend waiting period. What will it take?
5
This is the scariest thing. I work as an upper level manager for a company with more than 500 employees and the situation they're describing with this one employee could be us. We too have had to fire employees for exactly what Mr. Ward was doing while employed. We too have received manifestos from former employees promising their 'wrath'. We have, sadly, had to host trainings for our staff on what to do in an active shooter situation. We have protocol for what to do if certain employees show up at our central offices. We are and independent food company - we are not a controversial place to work and are consistently rated a top employer. We need stricter gun control laws, period because, as they say - there but for the grace of God go I.
39
Did your employer report those ex-employees to authority or did they sit on their hands because they don't want to deal with law enforcement officials or fear being labeled non-PC?
1
Mr. Ward was the cameraman, not the shooter.
1
Anybody who has had to work with someone whom they intuitively felt was a wee bit off, can relate to what you're saying. I'm sure most of us can think of people we've worked with whom we would be quite alarmed to imagine they possessed a gun, whether we were in a position to discipline or fire that person, or just sat in the next cubicle or routinely rode up in the elevator with them.
And the fact is, some of those people, whom we can all think of? Some of them do possess guns.
And the fact is, some of those people, whom we can all think of? Some of them do possess guns.
2
Debbie of New York has pointed out in these comments that many guns in New York City were purchased in Virginia. Being from Virginia, I don't doubt Debbie's assertion, and I can probably point accurately to one particular gun store where many of those guns were purchased. One of Virginia's representatives would do well to introduce a bill into Virginia's legislative chambers asking to change the name of the state to VirGUNia, and changing its well-known state slogan to "Virginia Is For Gun Lovers." I believe it would get some attention and change some things. My alma mater's 4/16/07 occurred in Virginia, with guns purchased in that state.
5
The video could not pass burden of proof standards in a criminal case, or even civil. There has been no third-party investigation. The event does follow programmatic narration principles.
2
Like many others here, my sincere condolences to the many family and friends of the the victims, including all of us. No one can condone such violence. It is really remarkable to see the number of people of varying views express what they think would be the solution. All have many talking points that we have all heard before. Violence may be a question, it is never the answer. Guns do kill people. People kill people. Whether intentional or random the effect is the same. Life is too precious to take another life or one's own. We each need to take responsibility for ourselves and respect those around us.We need less hostility and move civility. We need more concern for others and less hate. Thank you for your opinions. Peace.
3
On August 19, 1997, in a tiny town called Colebrook, New Hampshire, Carl Drega gunned down two state troopers, a judge and a newspaper editor and wounded three other law enforcement officers. Drega had a long history of conflict with government officials, starting in the 1970s. He had made numerous threats to the judge weeks before the murder. (The complete story is covered in the July/Aug issue the Yankee Magazine).
And yet, another revenge killing happens just over 18 years to the day.
These horrendous acts never get easier to comprehend, only more familiar.
Many broken hearts mourn alongside the families and friends of Alison Parker and Adam Ward.
8
Ever see the movie "Network?" Paddy Chayefsky was so prescient!
2
Two major obstacles prevent the counter-intuitive solution to this kind of gun shootings. One is the insistence by many gun control activists that local communities are not better equipped than a national police force to ensure safe gun ownership. The other obstacle is their attempt to nullify or restrict our 2nd Amendment right. None of the major federal branches of government have that legal authority. Only the state legislatures have the power to change our Constitution. But if local communities effectively regulate sales of tobacco, alcohol and real estate, why doesn't Obama take the environmental slogan "Act locally, think globally," to heart, applying it to gun regulations? Let local town, city and county governments regulate gun owners. One size does not fit all, as our Constitution and our Courts recognize. Any federal attempt to regulate firearm ownership is susceptible to 2nd Amendment violation, as an infringement on our protected individual right to self-defense with a firearm. Local governments have powers that the feds do not over individuals. Local governments, for instance, already enact statutes that restrict gun sales and ownership, just as private property owners, public service offices, and privately owned businesses impose gun restrictions. Both sides need to recognize that gun control is not a federal problem with a federal solution.
1
American individualism and our long-term romance with firearms seem to have dovetailed. We repeatedly glorify this American archetype of the Renegade Man, who stands against the world, rights wrongs, and exacts revenge on those who hindered him. The pervasiveness of this archetype is part of the problem. Narcissistic, angry men who feel they have been robbed of something to which they were entitled--whether in SC, VA, MA, CO, CA, CT, LA, wherever--are ALWAYS the perpetrators of these crimes.
Easy access to firearms in this country plays into this American Archetype of a gun-slinging, take-no-prisoners, individualistic hero who equates violence to power and selfishness to 'refusing to compromise'. Why else would all these men write 'manifestos'? Who do they think they are?
Yet they can get their angry, vindictive, delusional hands on lethal weapons. Weaponry gives them the power they felt missing in their lives, and they hold us hostage to meet the demands of their fragile egos.
So we Americans have to keep watching our family and friends get slaughtered, all to appease these entitled, immature animals who have nothing to lose and notoriety to gain. They die feeling like they belong with Tyler Durden and Travis Bickle. Then their 'manifestos' are read and analyzed, their photos circulated, and their 'mental status' debated for future killers to see. Well, here's my diagnosis: we have too many angry, violent, entitled men in this country to allow them easy access to guns.
Easy access to firearms in this country plays into this American Archetype of a gun-slinging, take-no-prisoners, individualistic hero who equates violence to power and selfishness to 'refusing to compromise'. Why else would all these men write 'manifestos'? Who do they think they are?
Yet they can get their angry, vindictive, delusional hands on lethal weapons. Weaponry gives them the power they felt missing in their lives, and they hold us hostage to meet the demands of their fragile egos.
So we Americans have to keep watching our family and friends get slaughtered, all to appease these entitled, immature animals who have nothing to lose and notoriety to gain. They die feeling like they belong with Tyler Durden and Travis Bickle. Then their 'manifestos' are read and analyzed, their photos circulated, and their 'mental status' debated for future killers to see. Well, here's my diagnosis: we have too many angry, violent, entitled men in this country to allow them easy access to guns.
15
How many more of these senseless acts of violence do we have endure before we admit to ourselves that our country's policy of gun ownership is fundamentally broken? The policy does not work. Tally up all of the gun deaths in just August of this year in the U.S. and compare that to all of the gun deaths in all of Europe for the entire year of 2015. Europeans look at us like we are lunatics, and they are not wrong.
I don't understand how Republicans can be Pro Life for a fetus, but not be Pro Life for all of the gun victims that we have on daily basis. How about protecting the lives of people that are actually living? Their political dogma doesn't make any sense.
You can say that it is unfair or inappropriate to bring politics into this tragedy, but I say how can you not? Gun violence is a daily occurrence in this country, and there are interest groups in this country that are unwilling or unable to do anything about it. We need to change our culture and not accept this as status quo.
I ask those that need to own guns, who are you planning to shoot? If you are needing guns for protection, then tell me who is threatening you? If giving up your guns would prevent these tragedies (as it has in Europe), then why would you not?
How many more, how many more...
I don't understand how Republicans can be Pro Life for a fetus, but not be Pro Life for all of the gun victims that we have on daily basis. How about protecting the lives of people that are actually living? Their political dogma doesn't make any sense.
You can say that it is unfair or inappropriate to bring politics into this tragedy, but I say how can you not? Gun violence is a daily occurrence in this country, and there are interest groups in this country that are unwilling or unable to do anything about it. We need to change our culture and not accept this as status quo.
I ask those that need to own guns, who are you planning to shoot? If you are needing guns for protection, then tell me who is threatening you? If giving up your guns would prevent these tragedies (as it has in Europe), then why would you not?
How many more, how many more...
16
"I ask those that need to own guns, who are you planning to shoot? "
How about burglars, home invaders, looters and "peaceful" rioters?
How about burglars, home invaders, looters and "peaceful" rioters?
1
Dave Cullen theorizes in his book COLUMBINE is that the reason so many people rushed to blame parents, society, music, media and everything else is fear of accepting the fact that at least one of the killers was a pure psychopath whose brain chemistry dictated his actions.
But as an individual who works with mentally ill adults, I have learned that there is really no way of predicting when or if "someone will snap" as some have posted in this section. Many suffering from paranoia and persecution complexes simply live their whole life nonviolently, albeit sadly.
This crime was not senseless. It makes sense. It is an illustration of what happens when we pour endless funds into weaponry and spend inadequate time and funds on understanding the human brain.
We need to get psychology out of the dark ages. When we do, these scenarios can be reduced.
But as an individual who works with mentally ill adults, I have learned that there is really no way of predicting when or if "someone will snap" as some have posted in this section. Many suffering from paranoia and persecution complexes simply live their whole life nonviolently, albeit sadly.
This crime was not senseless. It makes sense. It is an illustration of what happens when we pour endless funds into weaponry and spend inadequate time and funds on understanding the human brain.
We need to get psychology out of the dark ages. When we do, these scenarios can be reduced.
7
I encourage everyone to Google "jim jefferies gun control" and watch the video.
1
its sad what happened to these reporters/victims and its of wrong doing, if they were my family i would be mortified, but the thing you have to ask yourself sometimes is well, did they kill him inside? did they possibly bully and push him to breaking point? maybe..maybe not, the thing is they will be and always is two sides of the story and this could possibly bring a strong powerful message against bullying in the workplace and the powerful and hurtful effect it can have on an individual, its not right but whether you like it or not, this happens which may be telling us, be careful how you treat your fellow neighbour or co worker??
1
Kill him on the inside? You have to be joking.
Victims are not responsible for the choices of criminals. Ever.
Victims are not responsible for the choices of criminals. Ever.
Gee, Jim, do you speculate much? Like maybe that guy was so tortured from possible bullying that he needed to gun down two people in cold blood? I don't think so.
Who hasn't experienced unfair treatment, harassment, bullying, adversity, etc.
at low points in life? Yet most people learn to take positive action and move on,
without turning to such extreme measures. The media bear some responsibility
for giving such people a sensational world forum and infamy, and invading the privacy of the victims and their loved ones.
at low points in life? Yet most people learn to take positive action and move on,
without turning to such extreme measures. The media bear some responsibility
for giving such people a sensational world forum and infamy, and invading the privacy of the victims and their loved ones.
7
I write this useless comment in vexation and don’t care if it gets published or praised. The monitor will read it. That’s enough. It’s my therapy for the day, a vomitive to cleanse the horror and disgust, an exercise in futility, my 'Waiting For Godot'.
• “This [ ] was disturbed at the way things had turned out at some point in his life,” Sheriff Overton said.... “Things were spiraling out of control.”
Things HAD spiraled out of control, not just for Vester Lee Flanagan II, they have for the U.S.A.
Another nut with a gun! Licensed? I'm sure. Background checked?
Two dead – gunman kills self – end of story – no one accountable for a deadly string of failures.
All of Human Resources at WDBJ ought be summarily dismissed. Ditto Exec Dennison, who knew!
• Dan Dennison, a WDBJ executive, wrote that Flanagan had, on 3 occasions, “behaved in a manner that has resulted in one or more of your co-workers feeling threatened or uncomfortable.”
First time, GONE! 'Threatening' is a criminal offense here in Canada.
• Adam Henning, news director at WAFF, said Mr. Flanagan sought a job there in 2011, but was rejected after [he] contacted a half-dozen references. Mr. Flanagan “was exceedingly difficult to work with”.
Did no one else bother with job references and records?
• Don Shafer, who worked with Flanagan at WTWC, said [his] contract had been terminated because of bizarre behavior and threats....
EXCEPTIONAL, America! Keep your 2nd Amendment and your NRA. I chose to leave.
• “This [ ] was disturbed at the way things had turned out at some point in his life,” Sheriff Overton said.... “Things were spiraling out of control.”
Things HAD spiraled out of control, not just for Vester Lee Flanagan II, they have for the U.S.A.
Another nut with a gun! Licensed? I'm sure. Background checked?
Two dead – gunman kills self – end of story – no one accountable for a deadly string of failures.
All of Human Resources at WDBJ ought be summarily dismissed. Ditto Exec Dennison, who knew!
• Dan Dennison, a WDBJ executive, wrote that Flanagan had, on 3 occasions, “behaved in a manner that has resulted in one or more of your co-workers feeling threatened or uncomfortable.”
First time, GONE! 'Threatening' is a criminal offense here in Canada.
• Adam Henning, news director at WAFF, said Mr. Flanagan sought a job there in 2011, but was rejected after [he] contacted a half-dozen references. Mr. Flanagan “was exceedingly difficult to work with”.
Did no one else bother with job references and records?
• Don Shafer, who worked with Flanagan at WTWC, said [his] contract had been terminated because of bizarre behavior and threats....
EXCEPTIONAL, America! Keep your 2nd Amendment and your NRA. I chose to leave.
18
You made a good choice. America will never get the message as there is no profit to be made through gun control.
2
@ jj California
I know. Thank you.
"I have no further use for America. I wouldn't go back there if Jesus Christ was President." ~ CHARLIE CHAPLIN
I know. Thank you.
"I have no further use for America. I wouldn't go back there if Jesus Christ was President." ~ CHARLIE CHAPLIN
1
"The day began with the most mundane of early-morning interviews"??? Excuse me if this isn't the type of reporting the NYT would do. Let's honor the victims of this tragedy and not use this as an opportunity to be elitist snobs.
6
I didn't read that as a comment on their work or the type of interview. I think they were just trying to say it was an ordinary work day for the two people who were killed. The story they were reporting on was not controversial, and they had no reason to imagine they were in any sort of danger.
"Mundane" means of this world, day to day, average. If interviewing a local Chamber of Commerce exec isn't mundane, what is? What's elitist about that?
"If the killings shocked the nation . . ."
With 100K Americans killed or wounded by bullets every year, "shocking" long ago gave way to "usual" carnage news reporting. The "shock" value for the media on this shooting story is that one of those well dressed and coiffed people who report on the 100k other Americans who are killed or wounded by bullets every year, became part of the same dismal story.
With 100K Americans killed or wounded by bullets every year, "shocking" long ago gave way to "usual" carnage news reporting. The "shock" value for the media on this shooting story is that one of those well dressed and coiffed people who report on the 100k other Americans who are killed or wounded by bullets every year, became part of the same dismal story.
7
This is no less a terrorist attack than was the Bible study shooting in Charleston.
8
Why are mentally ill people allowed to buy guns???
10
because we don't know who is mentally ill. It's not like there's a blood test, and psychiatry cannot pinpoint who is suicidal or homicidal with accuracy.
2
They're not. But you have to be judged to be mentally unstable before you can be barred from owning a gun. And if you are, we are a society that is so awash in guns that it isn't hard for an insane person to get a gun from someone who is not. Adam Lanza for example.
2
We are stuck in a culture in which egos damaged by immature self absorption are the norm. Those damaged egos are the foundation of our culture. Striving to achieve acknowledgment; no matter the cost to the greater society. In fact the country is far safer than it has ever been...ever; these incidents and the gun culture context notwithstanding.
5
This monster was fired for incompetence and then went and murdered innocent people. In this instance racism is a scoundrel's excuse. Shame on anyone buying into it.
14
Several readers have suggested or demanded that we eliminate all firearms.
Why?
In 2013, knives were used to kill more than twice as many people (1,490) as were shotguns and rifles combined (593). As for the high number of all gun-related deaths (32,383), 65 percent of those fatal gunshots are attributable to suicide.
Further, despite the lack of nationally uniform standards of reporting, several states participate in the National Violent Death Reporting System (NVDRS), which employs a detailed method of categorization. According to the NVDRS, in 2012 there was a total of 9,786 gun-related deaths among the 17 participating states. Of those deaths, 69 percent were attributed to legal intervention, suicide, and the unintentional discharge fatal gunshots. California and Illinois do not currently participate in the NVDRS, but if they did we might obtain even more useful aggregate data in terms of gang-related deaths involving firearms. For instance, at the local level, the Los Angeles Count Sheriff's Department reported that 69 percent of its homicides in the year 2012 were related to gang activity alone. Meanwhile, some sources place Chicago's gang-related firearm deaths at around half of the total number of homicides in that city.
Finally, we must keep in mind that there is a strong cultural element tied to gun violence. Wyoming has the highest rate of gun ownership and one of the lowest rates of gun-related murders, while Maryland is just the opposite.
Why?
In 2013, knives were used to kill more than twice as many people (1,490) as were shotguns and rifles combined (593). As for the high number of all gun-related deaths (32,383), 65 percent of those fatal gunshots are attributable to suicide.
Further, despite the lack of nationally uniform standards of reporting, several states participate in the National Violent Death Reporting System (NVDRS), which employs a detailed method of categorization. According to the NVDRS, in 2012 there was a total of 9,786 gun-related deaths among the 17 participating states. Of those deaths, 69 percent were attributed to legal intervention, suicide, and the unintentional discharge fatal gunshots. California and Illinois do not currently participate in the NVDRS, but if they did we might obtain even more useful aggregate data in terms of gang-related deaths involving firearms. For instance, at the local level, the Los Angeles Count Sheriff's Department reported that 69 percent of its homicides in the year 2012 were related to gang activity alone. Meanwhile, some sources place Chicago's gang-related firearm deaths at around half of the total number of homicides in that city.
Finally, we must keep in mind that there is a strong cultural element tied to gun violence. Wyoming has the highest rate of gun ownership and one of the lowest rates of gun-related murders, while Maryland is just the opposite.
5
It's a religious thing, and doesn't respond well - or at all - to rational argument. Just assume that for Progressives, "gun" takes the place of "sin," and imagine some backwoods preacher ranting about sin.
1
KNIVES!!! Give me a break
And I noticed you made a very selective comparison. You compared knife deaths to only "shotguns and rifles" and not reporting the statistics of all guns. But, if you were going to do that, why didn't you make an even more favorable comparison; say, compare knives to elephant guns or Derringers or muskets?
And I noticed you made a very selective comparison. You compared knife deaths to only "shotguns and rifles" and not reporting the statistics of all guns. But, if you were going to do that, why didn't you make an even more favorable comparison; say, compare knives to elephant guns or Derringers or muskets?
2
Oh. That makes it all right then. Now go and compare your statistics with other western nations, e.g. the UK, France, or the whole of Western Europe which has a comparable population. The UK: 44 deaths involved a gun or firearm as the main weapon. Gun murders in Britain in 2011/12 represent 6% of the murder cases, (0.72 gun homicides per million population). I WILL SAY THAT AGAIN: 44
3
The man who did this awful act had a history of mental health problems. How many more awful acts will there be before someone addresses the mental health problems in this country? Mental health care is very expensive and not covered by most plans consequently families who have mental health care problems do nothing about getting help. We must look into why these killings are happening. Perhaps the news media can focus on that problem instead of reporting these awful acts over and over again on every newscast.
5
I know this might seem offensive, but . . .
This senseless, horrifying murder is only a degree or two separated from Donald Trump's arrogant removal of Jorge Ramos from a press conference.
Our failure to tightly control guns is vividly apparent. Our failure to deal with male entitlement, male anger, male repression of honest emotion, male parenting is so ubiquitous that we don't see it.
All over America - today - right this minute - boys are being taught to fight back, boys are told to "man up," boys are humiliated and punished in school instead of being hugged, boys are bullied on playgrounds, boys are spending hours a day wallowing in violent videos games, imprinting carnage on their developing brains, boys are watching violent misogynist pornography . . . I could go on.
Let's talk about that too.
This senseless, horrifying murder is only a degree or two separated from Donald Trump's arrogant removal of Jorge Ramos from a press conference.
Our failure to tightly control guns is vividly apparent. Our failure to deal with male entitlement, male anger, male repression of honest emotion, male parenting is so ubiquitous that we don't see it.
All over America - today - right this minute - boys are being taught to fight back, boys are told to "man up," boys are humiliated and punished in school instead of being hugged, boys are bullied on playgrounds, boys are spending hours a day wallowing in violent videos games, imprinting carnage on their developing brains, boys are watching violent misogynist pornography . . . I could go on.
Let's talk about that too.
11
Thank you for your comment. Male violence is something to be addressed urgently.
Steve, that's insane.
If anything, Jorge Ramos would be playing the Vester Lee Flanagan role.
Yesterday's tragedy had NOTHING to do with gun control, or the idiotic meme of blaming Conservatives for the actions of people who turn out to be Obama liberals, like Mr. Flanagan.
The problem here is one you do not understand, but as a Black man, I do.
We have a "Congressional Black Caucus" a president in the WH and two US attorney generals who are hiding from this tragedy. Why? Because it is one the Black community, my Black community created. Where were Flanagan's values for America? For rule of law? For human life? Nowhere. We have the likes of Barack Obama and Al Sharpton using my skin color to attain personal wealth, power and celebrity, with no thought given to ordinary people in the Black community watching all of this.
If our leaders aren't accountable, if Obama gets to call Republicans "crazies" if Al Sharpton gets an MSNBC show to spew divisive hate, what do you THINK the outcome will be?
If anything Donald Trump will help prevent this by uniting this country and bringing pride back. Say what you want about Trump, but he's proud to be an American. That pride comes with something. Hope. Optimism. Determination to succeed and make America better. People who feel that way don't run around shooting innocent people.
If anything, Jorge Ramos would be playing the Vester Lee Flanagan role.
Yesterday's tragedy had NOTHING to do with gun control, or the idiotic meme of blaming Conservatives for the actions of people who turn out to be Obama liberals, like Mr. Flanagan.
The problem here is one you do not understand, but as a Black man, I do.
We have a "Congressional Black Caucus" a president in the WH and two US attorney generals who are hiding from this tragedy. Why? Because it is one the Black community, my Black community created. Where were Flanagan's values for America? For rule of law? For human life? Nowhere. We have the likes of Barack Obama and Al Sharpton using my skin color to attain personal wealth, power and celebrity, with no thought given to ordinary people in the Black community watching all of this.
If our leaders aren't accountable, if Obama gets to call Republicans "crazies" if Al Sharpton gets an MSNBC show to spew divisive hate, what do you THINK the outcome will be?
If anything Donald Trump will help prevent this by uniting this country and bringing pride back. Say what you want about Trump, but he's proud to be an American. That pride comes with something. Hope. Optimism. Determination to succeed and make America better. People who feel that way don't run around shooting innocent people.
1
Hugging children and teaching them to fight back are not mutually exclusive.
More than one reporter has failed to recognize Flannigan's video as that of a cellphone camera held vertically. It is ironic that he worked in video production but he made the mistake of making a vertical video which only sees about one-third of the field of view. With the gun held in his right hand and his struggling to hold the phone the wrong way in his left hand the resulting recording is excessively shakey and it misses much of the action.
2
How many other people were killed and/or injured by gun violence yesterday? As tragic as this particular incident is, the fact that it is one of many is what we must be concerned about.
4
It is worthwhile to have a conversation about easy access to guns. However what about the role played by race-baiters to foster the kind of mentality exhibited by the shooter? According to some, institutional racism is so pervasive that any setback in the life of a black person (being fired, denied a promotion) can be attributed to this. When this insidious line of thinking becomes the basis for one's interaction with the world, anger and standoffishness is the result. There is no sense of personal responsibility or introspection. The notion that the event happened simply because the person was not effective or was difficult to work with is not considered. The ensuing anger and sensitivity to perceived or real slights creates a vicious cycle. Racism is certainly a problem, but so is using it as a default explanation for everything.
10
I agree. It has been used as a tool to teach black people to oppress themselves.
Every day I thank my God that I no longer reside in the US...especially as a former college professor in the US. I was ALWAYS afraid to give a failing grade to any student...ALWAYS! So I never did fail any students....and each time a student seemed unhappy about his/her grade, I always gave him/her "extra credit work" to do so as to attain the grade he "expected." I felt too afraid for my life. Still think I'm paranoid?
Now, I don't feel so afraid of giving a failing grade to students in France.
Now, I don't feel so afraid of giving a failing grade to students in France.
7
No wonder the US is falling behind. That kind of attitude is part of the problem. No wonder people get hired, on merits of their education, then we find they do the work, or even get along with the people at work. Why, they where passed along in school, nobody wants to fail anyone. Pass the problem on to the next grade, the next teacher. Despicable.
I work in a high-stress environment, and my goal is ton try to make sure I come home every day. On occasion, "what is right" is trumped by "what will make someone with an agenda not target me or my family?"
I also don't understand how HR's feel free to give reasons foe a firing. Here near NYC, you can't find out why anyone was let go, even in extreme cases. For example, a guy was fired for faking a college degree, but soon got a better job using the same fake info. HR was not allowed to state why he was let go, it was handled like he chose to leave.
I also don't understand how HR's feel free to give reasons foe a firing. Here near NYC, you can't find out why anyone was let go, even in extreme cases. For example, a guy was fired for faking a college degree, but soon got a better job using the same fake info. HR was not allowed to state why he was let go, it was handled like he chose to leave.
4
Everyone with any sense of current events knows now that Americans today are killed continually by their fellow Americans in greater numbers than by terrorists and that we continue to be most threatened by our own countrymen, most of whom are male. Most of the high profile or mass murderers have been white men, but it is evident that all men are more likely to abuse and kill their fellow humans. Were we to divert some of our military budget to dealing with our problem of angry and/or mentally impaired males, perhaps by making conflict resolution and anger management part of our primary curriculum, we'd be certain to have greater homeland security and peace of mind.
4
Clearly a hate crime.!
6
2nd Amendment. Let's regulate the militia. Gun Control Now!
6
If we don't want to have gun control, then we're going to need crazy-person control. Which would be more of a threat to our liberties in the long run, I think.
2
Let's not overlook the need for media controls to prevent the irresponsible hyping of mass murders that, according to his own 'manifesto', inspired Flanagan. While I am 100% behind freedom of the press, we need to recognize that it no more protects a media right to endanger the public than freedom of religion protects human sacrifice.
2
Guns don't kill people, the medial kills people??
This shocking incident was seen by millions on television and social media. Now, imagine if you will those mutiliated, bullet-riddled bodies of 21 little children and their teachers at Sandy Hook elementary school. The bullet-riddled bodies of people watching movies in theaters. The bullet-riddled bodies of children in other schools studying or eating lunch. Shooting victims in McDonalds. Good police people killed in their cars. People shot by snipers while pumping gas. WE must stop this. WE must quit expecting any President or lawmaker to fix it. WE must DEMAND that every gun in America be registered on a national database, licensed and fully insured for liability. NOW.
9
The insurance part of that proposal is overreaching, and would give wealthy people the right to protect themselves in ways not available to anybody else. Better education and evaluation for licensing would be more helpful. Buying insurance won't stop a crazed sniper.
Guns are not the issue. It is the mental state of being that is so bent from all of the input sources - from news almost thriving on reporting muders first to the violent TV and video games to the movies and social networks.
We promote and entertain with violence then we will create more of it in real life.
Gun control is not the issue. Drop it and face the real facts.
T
We promote and entertain with violence then we will create more of it in real life.
Gun control is not the issue. Drop it and face the real facts.
T
2
Actually, Gun control IS the issue. Take them off the street, and out of people's hands who are not law-enforcement or military, and watch how those shootings stop.
Two observations.
First, the reporters describe this shooting as "a new chapter in the intersection of video, violence and social media". Based on the thoughtful comments, however, the new chapter seems to be the intersection of guns, mental health, and racism (see Ardy from San Diego's comment).
Second, there is a grim coincidence here which underscores two of the three issues above: Adam Ward was a 2011 graduate of Virginia Tech, where in 2007 Seung-Hui Cho killed 33 people (including himself) and wounded 17 others. This means he was a freshman one year after the massacre.
Only in America.
First, the reporters describe this shooting as "a new chapter in the intersection of video, violence and social media". Based on the thoughtful comments, however, the new chapter seems to be the intersection of guns, mental health, and racism (see Ardy from San Diego's comment).
Second, there is a grim coincidence here which underscores two of the three issues above: Adam Ward was a 2011 graduate of Virginia Tech, where in 2007 Seung-Hui Cho killed 33 people (including himself) and wounded 17 others. This means he was a freshman one year after the massacre.
Only in America.
4
Once again in Virginia a mentally deranged man with incredibly easy access to a death weapon kills innocent people.
The second amendment does not give people the right to own guns. Only in forming a militia. Read it.
The second amendment does not give people the right to own guns. Only in forming a militia. Read it.
4
It is ironic that people who would otherwise reject strict originalist readings of the constitution rush to embrace such a meaning when it comes to guns. In any event there are over 300 million guns in private hands. The Supreme Court has found that there is a right to individual gun ownership.
"A well regulated militia being necessary for the security of a free state" is the introduction to second amendment. According to Antonin Scalia and his cohorts acting on instructions of the NRA and GOP sympathisers, that is pure rubbish.Security of citizens of a free state is not a priority- just buy a gun and lots of ammo if you feel insecure. So ask your elected officials how do deranged people become members of the militia and how is it well regulated?
Not a concern for the GOP and NRA.
If we had a functioning Congress we would follow the lead of other western countries and use military screening to license owners of guns. Personal interviews by police, references, medical screening, gun registration etc. Just look up requirements in Canada, Japan and Israel for a starter. But we do not have a functioning Congress and most state legislatures are bought, paid for and owned by the NRA. Here in Georgia we sell guns by the trunkload for resale at a profit in Northern cities to gang members and criminals. Is that how a well regulated militia operates? And of course GOP and NRA make it nearly impossible to trace those sales or hold the seller's civily liable.
Selling guns is a big business. Money is more important than human lives. It is the American way
Not a concern for the GOP and NRA.
If we had a functioning Congress we would follow the lead of other western countries and use military screening to license owners of guns. Personal interviews by police, references, medical screening, gun registration etc. Just look up requirements in Canada, Japan and Israel for a starter. But we do not have a functioning Congress and most state legislatures are bought, paid for and owned by the NRA. Here in Georgia we sell guns by the trunkload for resale at a profit in Northern cities to gang members and criminals. Is that how a well regulated militia operates? And of course GOP and NRA make it nearly impossible to trace those sales or hold the seller's civily liable.
Selling guns is a big business. Money is more important than human lives. It is the American way
9
Sure, mental health problems, racism etc can fuel such acts.
And they should be adressed. But... this is a fact everywhere
US are first on this statistic: 89 guns & firearms by 100 inhabitants
Switzerland second: 45
US deaths by firearms per 100,000 10,2
Switzerland 3,8
Safe in Canada
And they should be adressed. But... this is a fact everywhere
US are first on this statistic: 89 guns & firearms by 100 inhabitants
Switzerland second: 45
US deaths by firearms per 100,000 10,2
Switzerland 3,8
Safe in Canada
9
Safer in the UK
The murders should be categorized as a hate crime even though Flanagan knew two of the three victims and may have had a grudge against them. Flanagan had a history of grudges against white coworkers, whom by all accounts he terrorized, and his “manifesto” is filled with hate toward white people. As part of his motivation for the shooting, he cited his rage over the Charleston Church Massacre. Ironically, in his Facebook manifesto Dylann Roof cited black-on-white murders as his motivation for the Charleston Church Massacre, which has correctly been labeled as a hate crime. Now a second gunman has cited his rage at the white-on-black murders Roof committed as motivation for more black-on-white murders. People eager to pass the shooting off as just a grudge shooting ignore Flanagan's past history and the fact he shot one white woman, a chamber of commerce president named Vicky Garner, who was a total stranger.
9
There is a distinct pattern of Angry people, with Rage and access to guns- legal access or otherwise. I am beginning to think that a simple background check is useless. In some countries they take the extra step of interviewing friends and relatives to ask about a person before a gun is sold. These people with anger management issues should not be allowed to have guns.
7
Yes! A simple, extra step in the process.....why on earth doesn't our government make this possible? The NRA fanatics would claim this goes against our privacy, and our rights to that privacy, etc.....but it would most likely save many people. Those who favor guns, usually go nuts when they think there is even the smallest chance they will be somehow limited in their arsenals...I have little hope that we'll ever incorporate such a requirement. Sad, really.
The media is simplifying this issue to much.
Too many people are saying it's a gun issue. I'm pro-gun control and banning firearms (not just assault weapons) but even I can see this isn't about guns.
The pictures on ABC showed a regular, black, reporter transforming into a angry, stern, cold black man. The victims were all smiles, happy, innocent, white people, as if they could never commit a sin or have more nefarious behavior.
What pushed Vester Fee Flanagan isn't random and has NOT ONCE been mentioned by media. Race in the workplace.
Is it not possible, that the 2 innocents, contributed to a hostile work environment, that they themselves, were racist in remarks? The shooter was also gay. How many gays feel isolated, denigrated, abused in our country? Judging by NYT's coverage, it's a civil rights issue and yes they are. In a perverse way, NYT should sympathize with some of the feelings Vester Lee might have had as a gay, black man.
The station denied racist marks. Of course, simple defense, cannot be confirmed. Looking at the staff there, all white. I'd like to get a black person who works there and their views. Is this a real culture there at the station that creates an environment for black, gay people to be discriminated against and driven up against the wall or was Vestor Fee really mentally sick? Those questions need to be answered before we can say this is about mental health or gun control.
Too many people are saying it's a gun issue. I'm pro-gun control and banning firearms (not just assault weapons) but even I can see this isn't about guns.
The pictures on ABC showed a regular, black, reporter transforming into a angry, stern, cold black man. The victims were all smiles, happy, innocent, white people, as if they could never commit a sin or have more nefarious behavior.
What pushed Vester Fee Flanagan isn't random and has NOT ONCE been mentioned by media. Race in the workplace.
Is it not possible, that the 2 innocents, contributed to a hostile work environment, that they themselves, were racist in remarks? The shooter was also gay. How many gays feel isolated, denigrated, abused in our country? Judging by NYT's coverage, it's a civil rights issue and yes they are. In a perverse way, NYT should sympathize with some of the feelings Vester Lee might have had as a gay, black man.
The station denied racist marks. Of course, simple defense, cannot be confirmed. Looking at the staff there, all white. I'd like to get a black person who works there and their views. Is this a real culture there at the station that creates an environment for black, gay people to be discriminated against and driven up against the wall or was Vestor Fee really mentally sick? Those questions need to be answered before we can say this is about mental health or gun control.
2
DC, it is documented that he thinks he was "racially abused" everywhere...EVERYWHERE....he worked. I have a very hard time believing that, given the vast number of stations he worked with....I'm sorry, but he sounds like he ended up being a person who NO ONE could have made happy. That being said, racism and being gay does not mean that he had a reason to kill two people. He does not get a pass......the two people he killed don't......they're GONE.
Presidential candidates should be asked to address gun control. They should explain why gun ownership, safety, and liability should not be regulated as strictly as it done for automobiles.
9
There's indeed white racism, and we who are non-white (I'm South Asian) have also felt it, at one time or another, subtly or not, at the workplace. But, that's no rationale for violence as evinced by this angry young man's background and workplace history.
Fairness demands we also recognize that he was a mentally disturbed, paranoid, angry, obsessed, recalcitrant, hostile to authority and inflexible employee, simply unwilling or unable to collaborate with colleagues in a diverse workplace. He had access to all avenues of redressal for his real or perceived grievances. He lost his lawsuit against the station after a judicial, due process hearing (unless one were to insinuate the judge and the system was biased against him). When everything failed, he claimed victimhood because of his skin color and sexual orientation. And here lies a deeply disturbing aspect of the American workplace that all of us will recognize, but only a few will have the courage to say so with the PC elephant in the room.
Apparently, Affirmative Action, implied or explicit Racial Quotas, and Diversity and Inclusion initiatives are all great as long as it benefits my race/community (black, Hispanic, bi-racial, Native American, etc.), but when they don't, accusations of discrimination are too readily hurled by professional race-baiting community activists and politicians, irrespective of party affiliations. That's sadly the corroding poison in our bloodstream under the nation's first bi-racial President.
Fairness demands we also recognize that he was a mentally disturbed, paranoid, angry, obsessed, recalcitrant, hostile to authority and inflexible employee, simply unwilling or unable to collaborate with colleagues in a diverse workplace. He had access to all avenues of redressal for his real or perceived grievances. He lost his lawsuit against the station after a judicial, due process hearing (unless one were to insinuate the judge and the system was biased against him). When everything failed, he claimed victimhood because of his skin color and sexual orientation. And here lies a deeply disturbing aspect of the American workplace that all of us will recognize, but only a few will have the courage to say so with the PC elephant in the room.
Apparently, Affirmative Action, implied or explicit Racial Quotas, and Diversity and Inclusion initiatives are all great as long as it benefits my race/community (black, Hispanic, bi-racial, Native American, etc.), but when they don't, accusations of discrimination are too readily hurled by professional race-baiting community activists and politicians, irrespective of party affiliations. That's sadly the corroding poison in our bloodstream under the nation's first bi-racial President.
12
When will we have enough guns to keep us safe from guns?
6
Never and that is what the money grubbing arms merchants are counting on.
We didn't take any action after Newtown. Maybe this horrific shooting will spur action, but I won't hold my breath. The NRA will never back down, no matter how many innocent people are shot to death.
These young people had such bright futures, just like the little children at Newtown. When will it end?
These young people had such bright futures, just like the little children at Newtown. When will it end?
5
There is just too much money to be made by selling guns to a paranoid American public for gun control to become a reality.
Everyone here should also read the recent NYT article titled Divorcing a Narcissist (8/24/15). Full blown narcs have an *extremely* difficult time processing any sort of rejection / criticism. The gun problem in this country is just a symptom of a deeper issue.
7
Not the whole problem and not the whole answer; the gun culture in America is part of the solution.
1
For every killing, every day, I turn to these frightening words from former NYTimes Op-Ed columnist BOB HERBERT in 2011 on the shooting of GABRIELLE GIFFORDS in Tucson, trying to make sense.
QUOTE:
There is nothing more American than brutal violence. The country was built on it, revels in it and shows every evidence of clinging to it with the crazed, destructive strength of an obsessive lover."
We need to face up to the fact that this is an insanely violent society. The vitriol that has become an integral part of our political rhetoric Iis just one of the myriad contributing factors in a society saturated in blood. This is an American ritual: the mowing down of the innocents.
Neither the public nor the politicians seem to really care how many Americans are murdered — unless it’s in a terror attack by foreigners. The two most common responses to violence in the U.S. are to ignore it or be entertained by it. The horror prompted by the attack will pass. The outrage will fade. The murders will continue."
"The problem when we think in terms of freaks and aberrations is that there are so many of them, which calls into question just how freakish or aberrational they really are. The truth is that there is nothing aberrational about hatred and murderous violence.
"Americans kill each other at roughly the rate of 16,000 a year! From racial violence to family violence to gang warfare to street crime to mass murder - THE BLOOD NEVER STOPS FLOWING."
~ BOB HERBERT
(redacted to fit)
QUOTE:
There is nothing more American than brutal violence. The country was built on it, revels in it and shows every evidence of clinging to it with the crazed, destructive strength of an obsessive lover."
We need to face up to the fact that this is an insanely violent society. The vitriol that has become an integral part of our political rhetoric Iis just one of the myriad contributing factors in a society saturated in blood. This is an American ritual: the mowing down of the innocents.
Neither the public nor the politicians seem to really care how many Americans are murdered — unless it’s in a terror attack by foreigners. The two most common responses to violence in the U.S. are to ignore it or be entertained by it. The horror prompted by the attack will pass. The outrage will fade. The murders will continue."
"The problem when we think in terms of freaks and aberrations is that there are so many of them, which calls into question just how freakish or aberrational they really are. The truth is that there is nothing aberrational about hatred and murderous violence.
"Americans kill each other at roughly the rate of 16,000 a year! From racial violence to family violence to gang warfare to street crime to mass murder - THE BLOOD NEVER STOPS FLOWING."
~ BOB HERBERT
(redacted to fit)
7
As a industry standard, Media should make it obligatory for reporters to investigate how, and where, the gun(s) were obtained.
3
Why? Nothing will change because we know where and how a gun was obtained.
These are the bitter fruits of the greviance culture, on display in the media every day. Dubious characters like Michale Brown and Sandra Bland are elevated to martyr status. Facts are thrown aside, for emotion. Race-baiters, like Al Sharpton, whip people up into a frenzy, setting off "powder kegs" like Flanagan and Ismaaiyl Brinsley. If we can blame a culture of hate for Dylann Roof, that same phenomena explains what happened in Virginia. Unfortunately, this has been going on for some time. Just ask the owners of Freddy's Fashion Mart.
10
Texas (the home of Jim Crow) logic: "If the people fighting racism would just stop, these "powder kegs" would not explode," and "the only people who talk about racism are racists." But you are right, it IS the culture of hate that drove both Mr. Roof and Mr. Flanagan. Being a racist drove Roof, and being a victim of racists drove Mr. Flanagan.
John - except that Flanagan was not - at least in any documented way - the victim of racism. None of his complaints were found to have merit. Now people are dead, due to his warped sense of grievance, which was certainly exacerbated by our main stream media.
When easy access to guns and mental illness collide we get these horrible acts of violence. Let us not become numb to the carnage.
3
Another shooting...another day in America.....people are shocked, marking the area with wreaths, paying tribute to those lost with their prayers and empty platitudes and yet NOTHING will be done about the gun violence in this country. If people really cared about all of this, there would be stricter gun laws. And to those that are offended by this comment I say pardon my cynicism.
8
Rest in peace to the victims. Every life matters. He claims "The Charleston shooting" provoked this incident, but it doesn't make him any better. Condolences go to the family and the fiancee.
3
I'm a U.S. citizen and we live in England at the present time, but so often seeing this kind of thing happen in my country just breaks my heart as well as making me angry. The guy had mental health problems, that's not disputable and those are concerns that people face everywhere - but that isn't the crux of the problem, nor is racism. The availability of guns are. How many times does it take for this kind of thing to happen before the nation as a whole says enough. It's crazy to think we need guns to protect ourselves - from what? All the crazy people who are also carrying guns? I'm so tired of hearing how sanctimonious the NRA is when "we must have the right ..." - nonsense! They may have needed when the country was young and wild and full of dangers, but it just doesn't hold water now. There have been 2 shooting incidents in the United Kingdom, the second being a school that was shot up in the 1990's. Public opinion was so outraged that all guns in the U.K. were banned, other than those used by farmers. There was no pussy footing around a gun lobby that needs to be broken and brought under control, it was simply passed into law and that was the end of it. What does it take for my own country to do the same? I feel safer here, but that just doesn't extend anymore to the country I love and grew up in, and that just makes me sad.
11
Patty Windsor, I could not agree with you more! I've often said that the US is the only country in the world that is absolutely OBSESSED with owning and collecting guns....not historical pistols or war weapons that could simply be displayed and appreciated, but weapons to KILL....assault weapons, handguns and everything in between. I, personally, despise guns.....there is nothing good about them....they are used to kill people and to kill the beautiful creatures that inhabit our world. There really is something very wrong with the mentality of these people (who border on fanatical) because when gun control is suggested they go nuts....they gripe, they scream, they call everyone else names, they go nuts. Put a gun in the hand of someone like this shooter, who was obviously insane, and you get exactly what everyone should have expected...THANK YOU for your comment. I wish the US would wake up but I won't hold my breath. People are always going to kill other people, but it would be much harder to do that if we made guns much harder to get.
When there is no profit to be made from the sale of guns we will be able to enact effective laws controlling them. In other word things will change here when hell freezes over.
Some of us must visit a few countries in the third-world (underdeveloped, developing, poor) and see the kind of horrible things that people experience there, on a realtime basis. It will make us feel that humanity and human life does not exist there.
Yet, such dreadful things don't happen there, or happen very very rarely.
We have it very very good here, and in comparison. And, we may come back feeling compassion for people of those nations, and thankful for the sterile and luxurious environment (physical and social) we seem to have here.
However, we must think deeply about our real existence... mental and emotional. Are we living among one another physically, giving the impression of cohesion (artificially), while actually existing in peculiar chambers (individually, and in groups), insensitive (blind) to the adverse distance with some others around us. Something like living in the ISS - International Space Station... close physically, but encased in a space-suit, that in reality quarantines (metaphorically)... without really touching the other person with compassion, understanding, or emotion.
We may be think that our 'act' of superficial closeness is adequate to pass the test of daily formal interaction. But, we need to take a real hard look, and ask whether that is enough. We need to develop in all of us, the 'real' connect with 'all' others. We must not forget that human perception can penetrate superficiality, and can read 'real feelings' for one another.
Yet, such dreadful things don't happen there, or happen very very rarely.
We have it very very good here, and in comparison. And, we may come back feeling compassion for people of those nations, and thankful for the sterile and luxurious environment (physical and social) we seem to have here.
However, we must think deeply about our real existence... mental and emotional. Are we living among one another physically, giving the impression of cohesion (artificially), while actually existing in peculiar chambers (individually, and in groups), insensitive (blind) to the adverse distance with some others around us. Something like living in the ISS - International Space Station... close physically, but encased in a space-suit, that in reality quarantines (metaphorically)... without really touching the other person with compassion, understanding, or emotion.
We may be think that our 'act' of superficial closeness is adequate to pass the test of daily formal interaction. But, we need to take a real hard look, and ask whether that is enough. We need to develop in all of us, the 'real' connect with 'all' others. We must not forget that human perception can penetrate superficiality, and can read 'real feelings' for one another.
1
The shooter thought he could perceive "the real feelings " of his ex-coworkers. That's called projection.
The gun issue in this country is like a cancer blithely ignored, and now
lo and behold, it's at the point where there's no stopping it. It was our
willing ignorance, our refusal to take action against the arms industry and
it's mouthpiece, the NRA, even as the country is drowning in a sea
of blood.
lo and behold, it's at the point where there's no stopping it. It was our
willing ignorance, our refusal to take action against the arms industry and
it's mouthpiece, the NRA, even as the country is drowning in a sea
of blood.
8
As long as the arms merchants "own" our politicians we will continue to drown in that sea of blood. There is just too much money to be made from the sale of guns to stem the tide of violence it brings.
Perhaps the time has come to openly challenge the NRA and the Doctrine of "Good guns outnumbering the bad Guns". Guns are for killing and worrying enough that is what they do to US citizens.
9
And we still call it social media
2
NYT, you are culpable. All of the exaggerated reticence when covering a Muslim murderer ("not representative of his religion, which is one of peace", "let's not jump to conclusions just because the killer's name is Mohammed."). This was not the case in the Charleston murders, where the MSM was wild with accusations and eager to include all Southern whites.
2
I give the NYT credit for reporting the history of Flanagan. I only wish they would do more of the same thing when a police officer instead of a media personality is shot!
It is amazing that the Roanoke station hired Flanagan with his background. They must have done very little as a reference or background check. You would think with Flanagan's employment history they would have done a more thorough screening. However, I give them credit for firing him.
This is obviously a tragedy for the families whose loved one was killed. My heart goes out to them.
It is amazing that the Roanoke station hired Flanagan with his background. They must have done very little as a reference or background check. You would think with Flanagan's employment history they would have done a more thorough screening. However, I give them credit for firing him.
This is obviously a tragedy for the families whose loved one was killed. My heart goes out to them.
3
It'll be depressing to watch people ram this awful data point into their own preconceived political views. I'm not even going to read the comments here.
2
Deinstitutionalization of mentally ill in 1955 resulted in 10,000,000 in our jails an historically high figure, 30 mass murders (59% mentally ill), 41,149 suicides (90% mentally ill), and 14,146 homicides (22%mentally ill) in 2013 and this live media event is another example of this challenge neither financial decision makers nor the media address. While conventional metrics generally fail [with success rates ranging from 20%-73% for physical exams (49%), interviews (46%), and other tests (73%)], internet tests are simultaneously remarkably sensitive (97%) and specific (97%), non-discriminatory, objective, cost about $100, require 3-6 hours to complete, assessing psychiatric and substance abuse issues. Until emergency rooms and human resource departments start employing internet tests to accurately and precisely diagnose so that evidence based treatments can be applied, these mass shootings, suicides, and homicides along with jailing of the mentally ill will only persist. Internet tests offer a solution and hope for a safer community.
Repeat after me,
Guns don't kill people, people kill people (Columbine)
Guns don't kill people, people kill people (Sandy Hook)
Guns don't kill people , people kill people (WVT)
And on and on and on...
You're right NRA, guns don't kill people, but they sure make it easier!
Guns don't kill people, people kill people (Columbine)
Guns don't kill people, people kill people (Sandy Hook)
Guns don't kill people , people kill people (WVT)
And on and on and on...
You're right NRA, guns don't kill people, but they sure make it easier!
10
The easier it is to sell guns the more money the arms merchants make. And money is what this is all about. The death toll is just collateral damage.
1
Please report when and where this man bought his gun -- the very store.
8
You will have a job until somebody doesn't like you, and then you will not. I am only repeating what a client once told me, after saying how I was being politically incorrect.
Alison Parker, 24, in just a very short period of time had secured job security for herself by using politics as a weapon against people she didn't like, in this case Lester Lee Flanagan, 41. And nobody said anything against that. Not Parker and Flanagans employer; and certainly not any of the feckless government authorities that Flanagan sought futile relief from, in a work environment he believed was stacked against him.
She was having an affair with a fellow anchor, Chris Hurst who called Flanagan a disgruntled employee and Parker the most radiant person he had ever known. How do you compete with that?
Parker was young, 24; Flanagan was not, at 41.
Park was white; Flanagan was not.
These days when having a job has never been so important there can no longer be any excuse for beautiful people -- another condition for employment as a talking head in the media -- using their looks as a weapon in the work place.
The definition of a bully is someone who has more power than the person they are attacking.
I am not here to praise Parker just to condemn Flanagan. There is plenty of blame to go around. We have created a work environment that is plainly toxic on all levels, and deadly for everyone. Parker had everything on her side; Flanagan had nothing.
Alison Parker, 24, in just a very short period of time had secured job security for herself by using politics as a weapon against people she didn't like, in this case Lester Lee Flanagan, 41. And nobody said anything against that. Not Parker and Flanagans employer; and certainly not any of the feckless government authorities that Flanagan sought futile relief from, in a work environment he believed was stacked against him.
She was having an affair with a fellow anchor, Chris Hurst who called Flanagan a disgruntled employee and Parker the most radiant person he had ever known. How do you compete with that?
Parker was young, 24; Flanagan was not, at 41.
Park was white; Flanagan was not.
These days when having a job has never been so important there can no longer be any excuse for beautiful people -- another condition for employment as a talking head in the media -- using their looks as a weapon in the work place.
The definition of a bully is someone who has more power than the person they are attacking.
I am not here to praise Parker just to condemn Flanagan. There is plenty of blame to go around. We have created a work environment that is plainly toxic on all levels, and deadly for everyone. Parker had everything on her side; Flanagan had nothing.
3
Way to blame the dead woman who has shot. You are making a lot of thoughtless conclusions.
Jeff Lovejoy, several things:
1. Parker was ENGAGED to Chris Hurst; she wasn't "having an affair"...
2. There is no evidence that Parker did ANYTHING to offend this killer...
3. If this killer was "bullied" he must have been bullied everywhere he worked, since he was FIRED from multiple stations.....
4. You don't know these people and aren't from Roanoke, VA - I am and these were good people (both victims) who had to deal with a life-long "victim" that the killer professed to be....the whole world was against him.
5. I have to assume you are black and/or gay (since you don't tell us) or there is some other less-obvious reason that you have decided to publicly bash two murder victims in favor of a mentally ill, angry, violent murderer who had enough forethought to attach a Go Pro to his chest and kill two people and broadcast it to the world.
6. Parker is reported to have been "racially abused" EVERYWHERE he worked....there is something wrong there.
7. There is something wrong with you...that's the only conclusion I can come to at this point. You don't have to "praise" the victim(s)....just a little respect would do.
1. Parker was ENGAGED to Chris Hurst; she wasn't "having an affair"...
2. There is no evidence that Parker did ANYTHING to offend this killer...
3. If this killer was "bullied" he must have been bullied everywhere he worked, since he was FIRED from multiple stations.....
4. You don't know these people and aren't from Roanoke, VA - I am and these were good people (both victims) who had to deal with a life-long "victim" that the killer professed to be....the whole world was against him.
5. I have to assume you are black and/or gay (since you don't tell us) or there is some other less-obvious reason that you have decided to publicly bash two murder victims in favor of a mentally ill, angry, violent murderer who had enough forethought to attach a Go Pro to his chest and kill two people and broadcast it to the world.
6. Parker is reported to have been "racially abused" EVERYWHERE he worked....there is something wrong there.
7. There is something wrong with you...that's the only conclusion I can come to at this point. You don't have to "praise" the victim(s)....just a little respect would do.
We have toured NY, NJ, MA, MI, FL, LA, District Of Columbia, PA, WI, NV, AR, KS, WA, MD and CT. Further we lived in America for five and half years till May 2012 as legal immigrants and stayed as visitors for six months in 2014. We have had practically no problems whatsoever and never felt threatened and never felt the need to carry even a stick.
We have spent maximum of our life in India without the need for carrying even a stick. India's population is more than thrice that of America whereas its land area is one third that of America.
Please seriously think over, Do you really need guns ?
We have spent maximum of our life in India without the need for carrying even a stick. India's population is more than thrice that of America whereas its land area is one third that of America.
Please seriously think over, Do you really need guns ?
10
After traveling extensively and p r i v a t e l y (i.e. no int'l-grade security detail, actually no security at all) in Afghanistan, I have seen what it means to live under attack, and mainly by armed forces militarily and politically engineered outside of Afghanistan…. And then a few weeks ago, at the ferry station in Woods Hole, going to plush/flush Martha's Vineyard…. That ludicrous threat-level sign, which had been increased to a non-sensical something like "Wow, really high, we are still really under attack, be really worried"…. As if, at Woods Hole we had to be on alert against being attacked by some olive-y, long-gowned alien… Meanwhile, in America…. (Who is putting weapons on the market like they are peanuts? Who is keeping them there? How immature and self-referential can an entire population be in the 3rd millennium, mandatory schooling and Ivy-League universities and all? How powerful can the clutch of the weapons manufacturers lobbies be in the 3rd millennium in a Western democracy, mandatory schooling and Ivy-League universities and all?)
6
Our culture fosters this problem:
"He was sort of looking out for people to say things that he could take offense to,” Mr. Marks said."
"He was sort of looking out for people to say things that he could take offense to,” Mr. Marks said."
8
How did Mr. Flanagan knew Ms. Parker and Mr. Ward would be working at that particular location yesterday morning. He must have had a source at the station unless it was announced on television the night before that there would be a live broadcast from the location.
5
It is obvious that US gun laws, or the lack of them, make no sense at all. But several European countries, such as Switzerland and Finland, have high rates of gun ownership. Very rarely multiple shootings have occurred but the overall deaths from firearms. But the US has what Harold Bloom called the culture of grievance combined with millions of guns. You have men like this and the mass murderer in Colorado who are failures and have to blame someone rather than themselves. As an ex-colleague said he was always looking out for something to be offended by. This is the lunatic end product of identity politics, the revenge of the inadequate on the gifted, the good-looking, the hard-working. To this we can now add the narcissism of the so-called social media.
7
"He echoed the words of the accused Charleston gunman, Dylann Roof, and spoke of a race war."
The contrast in reporting on Dylann Roof and Vester Flanagan is revealing. Both of them killed members of another race, and both were self-declared racists. However, Roof's racism was the central focus of the reporting, whereas it is buried near the end of articles about Flanagan.
The contrast in reporting on Dylann Roof and Vester Flanagan is revealing. Both of them killed members of another race, and both were self-declared racists. However, Roof's racism was the central focus of the reporting, whereas it is buried near the end of articles about Flanagan.
16
How did the shooter know where and when the two victims would be conducting the interview? He seemed very well prepared to record the incident; wouldn't some of the premeditation involve foreknowledge of their whereabouts, which I assume isn't public information?. Perhaps he simply followed news vans around and waited for them to appear from one, then proceeded with the murders, but it seems odd that he was able to choose victims who he apparently had problems with in the past and successfully find them together and eliminate them, all while recording.
5
This is unfortunate, and you can pontificate about it all you like. You can command that guns be abolished. You can say it's racial and we all must learn to get along (better). You can point to the 'Net, Social Media, or any number of other technologies firmly embedded in our society as being part of the problem. All of this is understood, but misdirected.
Guns,, Social Media, are simply the conduit by which a person who's snapped and raging channels their explosion against (to them) the faceless unjust "other." They are unfettered from all the norms of convention and logic; they are insane. And regardless how you in hindsight moralize; regardless of how you may legislate or attempt to control those conduits against such as this repeating you will never, ever, stop it completely.
Because an unhinged human being, one who becomes so deranged, is an unpredictable animal. You can put systems in place in an attempt to root them out, but you will ultimately fail because what lies festering in the heart, the soul, of that human is unknowable. You cannot put a society in "lock down" without destroying it. This is not to say we cannot try to anticipate, to save such people from themselves. We should never give up trying. It's only to say those conduits, guns, social media, are not the problem. The (unsolvable) problem is we will always have these moments when a seemingly innocent person erupts into an insanity that destroys their soul.
John~
American Net'Zen
Guns,, Social Media, are simply the conduit by which a person who's snapped and raging channels their explosion against (to them) the faceless unjust "other." They are unfettered from all the norms of convention and logic; they are insane. And regardless how you in hindsight moralize; regardless of how you may legislate or attempt to control those conduits against such as this repeating you will never, ever, stop it completely.
Because an unhinged human being, one who becomes so deranged, is an unpredictable animal. You can put systems in place in an attempt to root them out, but you will ultimately fail because what lies festering in the heart, the soul, of that human is unknowable. You cannot put a society in "lock down" without destroying it. This is not to say we cannot try to anticipate, to save such people from themselves. We should never give up trying. It's only to say those conduits, guns, social media, are not the problem. The (unsolvable) problem is we will always have these moments when a seemingly innocent person erupts into an insanity that destroys their soul.
John~
American Net'Zen
1
Sandy Hook was a gun and mental health issue. Corkins was a gun and mental health issue. Loughner was a gun and political discourse issue. Roof was a gun and race issue. This is a gun and mental health issue.
We seem to attribute malice when we oppose the shooter's ideology, and attribute incompetency when we support the shooter's ideology
We seem to attribute malice when we oppose the shooter's ideology, and attribute incompetency when we support the shooter's ideology
1
It's pretty clear from his manifesto that the media coverage of other shooters encouraged him. It's time for the media, particularly TV news, to stop sensationalizing killings --for profit. This is a news guy and he told us how much he wanted the attention that other killers, who he named by name, got.
Let's have some discussion about this. This is something we can change. Or is this a sacred cow like guns? So much profit that there's no way to limit guns or the orgy of news coverage of certain gun deaths? They go hand in hand. Peace would be so much less profitable. So really, underneath it all, one of the root causes of the situation is out of control capitalism.
Let's have some discussion about this. This is something we can change. Or is this a sacred cow like guns? So much profit that there's no way to limit guns or the orgy of news coverage of certain gun deaths? They go hand in hand. Peace would be so much less profitable. So really, underneath it all, one of the root causes of the situation is out of control capitalism.
5
We have become a nation of aggrieved people, led by a political class that divides by encouraging us to nurse our grievances rather than count our blessings. The people we elect to lead and guide are quick to demonize. Opponents are no longer just wrong, they're "bad." Real leadership - sober and mature and respectful of national interests rather than self-interest - is sorely lacking.
This matters. This sets a tone.
At the same time, social media outlets fueled by shock, snark and self-promotion have become the preferred means of public expression. Add in easy access to firearms and a (slowly diminishing but still stubborn) social stigma against seeking mental health help, and you have a recipe for the toxic brew in which we all swim.
God bless the USA. God help the USA.
This matters. This sets a tone.
At the same time, social media outlets fueled by shock, snark and self-promotion have become the preferred means of public expression. Add in easy access to firearms and a (slowly diminishing but still stubborn) social stigma against seeking mental health help, and you have a recipe for the toxic brew in which we all swim.
God bless the USA. God help the USA.
7
This sad event is a very upsetting tragedy.
In recent years, I feel that media has played a part in fueling these mass shooting-related events to the point where the topic of gun violence polarizes the country between gun control and mental illness. Throw in race, discrimination, and law enforcement; we've reached a boiling point.
And yet, I can't help but to wonder whether all these tragedies disseminated on various media obfuscate the truth of what matters.
What is that truth? I don't know.
I know that things weren't as bad 20 years ago when the Brady Bill was introduced.
I know the science, the institutional system, and the care in regards to mental health is not simple and easy, black and white. In fact, the scene on mental illness is very complicated. It is possible that current trends in mental healthcare are propagate the number of problems that it intend to solve. Treatment for mental illness should not succumb to one for all policy.
As for race, discrimination, and law enforcement: I think our society is more fragmented due to a wide spectrum of individualism. Racism is our original sin. It is war within each of our hearts and minds whether we choose to love or hate those who are different or strange or uncomfortable to us. It is peace when we choose to love and come together.
Ending on a brighter note: It's a good sign when local police decides to do better by improving community relations, and in turn, better policing.
In recent years, I feel that media has played a part in fueling these mass shooting-related events to the point where the topic of gun violence polarizes the country between gun control and mental illness. Throw in race, discrimination, and law enforcement; we've reached a boiling point.
And yet, I can't help but to wonder whether all these tragedies disseminated on various media obfuscate the truth of what matters.
What is that truth? I don't know.
I know that things weren't as bad 20 years ago when the Brady Bill was introduced.
I know the science, the institutional system, and the care in regards to mental health is not simple and easy, black and white. In fact, the scene on mental illness is very complicated. It is possible that current trends in mental healthcare are propagate the number of problems that it intend to solve. Treatment for mental illness should not succumb to one for all policy.
As for race, discrimination, and law enforcement: I think our society is more fragmented due to a wide spectrum of individualism. Racism is our original sin. It is war within each of our hearts and minds whether we choose to love or hate those who are different or strange or uncomfortable to us. It is peace when we choose to love and come together.
Ending on a brighter note: It's a good sign when local police decides to do better by improving community relations, and in turn, better policing.
1
Everytime there is a gun related death the gun control echo chamber goes into full-effect. And I'd bet nearly all of those posting "gun control, gun control, gun control (and now bullet control?)" have no idea what gun control (and bullet control) laws ALREADY exist in their state or at the federal level. Cities with the strictest gun control laws have awful gun related crime statistics (if not the worst in some cases). Criminals don't observe gun laws or the law. PERIOD. It is a fact that a majority of guns are never used in a crime. I encourage you to read up on laws and crime stats relating to guns and the number of guns on the street. I also encourage you to look at how many non-gun related murders take place each year. Long before the U.S.A ever existed there were laws saying "thall shalt not kill", yet people have been killing each other for centuries. You can't legislate morality.
2
What nonsense. Period
The gunman claimed that his coworkers made racist and defamatory remarks. In Colorado and probably other states, there is an express constitutional right to get a get a jury trial for defamatory remarks. But these days such a trial costs over $100,000 for attorney bills and self represented litigants have not been allowed trials.
Access to courts should be greatly expanded. If one is a victim of defamatory statements, particularly in the workplace, you should have choices other than "live with it" or "take revenge into your own hands". If he had been able to have a court case on the defamation, he wouldn't have felt like a hopeless victim. Maybe he would have won in court! Or at least he would have understood the context of the remarks, maybe they weren't intended the way he thought.
Court is supposed to be a safe and fair way to resolve grievances. The decades of publicity by the American Chamber of Commerce that lawsuits are bad and that "tort reform" involves scaring litigants away from court leaves the public without a model for resolving grievances successfully and peacefully.
If he had sued the station management for defamation and won would he have been able to find another job in broadcasting? Or would he have been blacklisted for filing a lawsuit?
Access to courts should be greatly expanded. If one is a victim of defamatory statements, particularly in the workplace, you should have choices other than "live with it" or "take revenge into your own hands". If he had been able to have a court case on the defamation, he wouldn't have felt like a hopeless victim. Maybe he would have won in court! Or at least he would have understood the context of the remarks, maybe they weren't intended the way he thought.
Court is supposed to be a safe and fair way to resolve grievances. The decades of publicity by the American Chamber of Commerce that lawsuits are bad and that "tort reform" involves scaring litigants away from court leaves the public without a model for resolving grievances successfully and peacefully.
If he had sued the station management for defamation and won would he have been able to find another job in broadcasting? Or would he have been blacklisted for filing a lawsuit?
There was no proof in any of those cases that racial epithets occurred.
I am so beyond tired of our gun culture. I haven't looked, but I am sure the NRA has sent out more of their propaganda like, "guns don't kill, people do." At what point do we as a nation face the reality that easy access to guns is the root cause of these unspeakable tragedies? When do people take back our country from the gun lobby, or for that matter, all the lobbies and their benefactors?
4
I am sickened. Yet again.
We need to make it so that people who are starting to entertain thoughts of harming people know they can check themselves into an asylum and get help. Some people are too far gone, but some aren't. We need to make it a loud, declarative, completely known, public fact, that the desire to harm someone means you need help, fast. We need to do this! We cannot stop all madmen, but maybe some, if only we told each other, if ever you think such thoughts, go to this place immediately.
First we need those places! We need to re-think what we did in the 1970's, which is totally dismantle state-run mental illness facilities. We need to undo that. It was a terrible, terrible mistake. End the stigma, increase the awareness. Two more people would be alive today if only as a society it was common knowledge, such thoughts mean you need, and can find, help.
We need to make it so that people who are starting to entertain thoughts of harming people know they can check themselves into an asylum and get help. Some people are too far gone, but some aren't. We need to make it a loud, declarative, completely known, public fact, that the desire to harm someone means you need help, fast. We need to do this! We cannot stop all madmen, but maybe some, if only we told each other, if ever you think such thoughts, go to this place immediately.
First we need those places! We need to re-think what we did in the 1970's, which is totally dismantle state-run mental illness facilities. We need to undo that. It was a terrible, terrible mistake. End the stigma, increase the awareness. Two more people would be alive today if only as a society it was common knowledge, such thoughts mean you need, and can find, help.
1
A Black Gay man in the South? That is bound to attract both racism and homophobia. And have you watched local news programs in the South? They are extremely racist and they always put Black faces as "criminals, drug addicts, perverts or crazies". If you so much as disagree you are immediately accused by some paranoid white racist woman or man as having an "anger management problem". These racist people, some of the dumbest people on earth, with media power provoke minorities, Blacks and immigrants and then claim "the other person has an attitude problem". The South is for Christian fundamentalists, KKK, cops who love violence, dumb racist media people and screwed up politicians. How could an intelligent black gay man survive in that system...let alone succeed? I think America is ready for a second revolution, or partition. People in the north are terrified of going to the South even for a visit...including Anglo liberals. I am White male...but I have had violent cops threaten me for silly stops in Florida, conservatives spew venom on Democrats and liberals that would make you avoid identifying yourself as a liberal. I actually find Dallas far more sane, safe and decent compared to Florida, Virginia and many other places There are very ugly Christians (pretending to be Christians) in these places. You have to be crazy if you are Black and gay to work there or live there.
3
Guns, box cutters, suicide vests, IEDs, 747s crashing into buildings, setting people on fire, beheadings...
Do we really think eliminating guns whatever that means will solve the problem of evil people and Evil in our world. Where there is a will to kill, there are many ways to kill beyond guns. And I do not own a gun or have any interest in them beyond insuring that our police and military have bigger better guns than all the bad guys.
Do we really think eliminating guns whatever that means will solve the problem of evil people and Evil in our world. Where there is a will to kill, there are many ways to kill beyond guns. And I do not own a gun or have any interest in them beyond insuring that our police and military have bigger better guns than all the bad guys.
1
Before you do something crazy and dark like this, you have the option to turn to God and Jesus and cry out, "God, please help me! Take the reigns. Enter my life now. Fill me with Your love. Show me Your presence unmistakably. I want to live in Your light and in the sunshine, no longer in the darkness". If you say that from the depth of your heart, He will come. Somehow how, someway. It may be the slightest of miraculous interventions, but He will intervene. You can bet your life on it. BTW, he will most likely send Jesus.
Is this a hate crime?
4
Good question. Looks like one, in some ways.
Revenge killings are common in America due to slights of all kinds and firings for poor interpersonal skills.
Warning: take a lesson from these work place killings and make a vow not to verbally abuse your coworkers or discriminate in any way in your daily life.
The life you save may be your own!
Warning: take a lesson from these work place killings and make a vow not to verbally abuse your coworkers or discriminate in any way in your daily life.
The life you save may be your own!
2
It's easier to get a legal gun than it is to get a Driver's License in this country.
Congress wouldn't act to control guns, even after one of their own, Rep. Gabrielle Giffords, was gunned down.
The flood of guns in this country is the tyranny of the few against the many. We need a 1963-style civil rights march on Washington, with 250,000 people gathered to shout their support for the right to live in a society with fewer guns.
Congress wouldn't act to control guns, even after one of their own, Rep. Gabrielle Giffords, was gunned down.
The flood of guns in this country is the tyranny of the few against the many. We need a 1963-style civil rights march on Washington, with 250,000 people gathered to shout their support for the right to live in a society with fewer guns.
9
I guarantee that I will pledge my vote and to whichever candidate steps up to fight the gun lobby and promises to put in place restrictive gun laws so tragedies like this can stop becoming everyday news. We need gun laws like the type that almost every other civilized country already has on their books.
And I should note that I don't live in California, but rather a swing state (so my vote actually counts a little bit).
And I should note that I don't live in California, but rather a swing state (so my vote actually counts a little bit).
3
I'm affraid you're going to have to sit out this election as no one in Washington or any current candidate has a backbone to stand up to the nra.
1
The rest of world shakes its collective head and looks at the United States with incredulity for its failure to address the epidemic of gun violence. It seems no fact, truth or reality about guns is enough to budge the US from its love affair with fear and aggression. You sit passively by wringing your hands as thousands of innocents go down in slaughter. When are you going to stand up and insist on change? If a classroom of kindergarteners gunned down wasn't enough to stun you into action, I fear nothing ever will.
9
This is not just a senseless tragedy. Horrifying yes, but not merely "senseless." The terrible thing about this is that we know that the NRA, with their corporate sponsors and allied politicians are part of mainstream society. They engage in cognitive dissonance as major banks, corporations and politicians continue to back the NRA. Then, university leaders affiliate themselves with these corporations or banks. They are part of mainstream society that is complicit in murder. This is the logic or sense that sustains the immediate acts of an obviously crazy person. The interaction between a society with real racism and homophobia also helped confirm the reporter's delusions. So that also is the logic that is grafted to the killer's insanity. The easy way out is to say: a) the guy was a lunatic. Or, b) another NRA enabled tragedy. No! Dig deeper and see who is actually supporting the NRA.
3
Let's anticipate all the excuses our lawmakers will come up with to avoid combating our violence epidemic, and be ready with refutation. Many of them accept donations from NRA so are the NRA's paid employees, while they run on platforms to represent the voters.
Now, most voters want strong gun control, even gun owners, and many NRA members. They should be on the media in repeated interviews telling why. Do this instead of the usual gun control organizations we've grown used to seeing in opposition to the gun lobby.
The root of this epidemic is Big Money in Politics---the same as we see in our current presidential campaign now soaring into the billions, and which is repelling many people. And the lack of funding for mental health services is the direct result of anti govt, anti public spending, privatizing, right wingers dominating our politics and dragging the dems with them.
The countries with strong gun laws, who don't have constant gun violence epidemics, also happen to have public funding for elections, so gun lobbies like the NRA aren't given carte blanch to pay off politicians and influence candidates.
Here politicians use the gun lobby to keep their jobs, and ignore the true causes of the dead bodies piling up year after year. Easy gun access plus untreated mental illness, plus media publicizing of gun massacres showing a role model for the crazed. The next massacre is about a month or so away, if the pattern continues. Stay tuned to TV screens.
Now, most voters want strong gun control, even gun owners, and many NRA members. They should be on the media in repeated interviews telling why. Do this instead of the usual gun control organizations we've grown used to seeing in opposition to the gun lobby.
The root of this epidemic is Big Money in Politics---the same as we see in our current presidential campaign now soaring into the billions, and which is repelling many people. And the lack of funding for mental health services is the direct result of anti govt, anti public spending, privatizing, right wingers dominating our politics and dragging the dems with them.
The countries with strong gun laws, who don't have constant gun violence epidemics, also happen to have public funding for elections, so gun lobbies like the NRA aren't given carte blanch to pay off politicians and influence candidates.
Here politicians use the gun lobby to keep their jobs, and ignore the true causes of the dead bodies piling up year after year. Easy gun access plus untreated mental illness, plus media publicizing of gun massacres showing a role model for the crazed. The next massacre is about a month or so away, if the pattern continues. Stay tuned to TV screens.
4
"The next massacre is about a month or so away,"
I am sure you are right. The Virginia gunman apparently bought a gun right after the Charleston shootings. Right this minute some other sad sack is planning what it will be like when HE goes out in his blaze of glory. He's marking time, making his plans, sitting in his bedroom fantasizing about what he'll do, maybe even writing it up on some blog or writing alarming things to his social media "followers."
I am sure you are right. The Virginia gunman apparently bought a gun right after the Charleston shootings. Right this minute some other sad sack is planning what it will be like when HE goes out in his blaze of glory. He's marking time, making his plans, sitting in his bedroom fantasizing about what he'll do, maybe even writing it up on some blog or writing alarming things to his social media "followers."
Unfortunately now we see the added factor of social media that might contribute to the chain of causation of our gun violence epidemic. Easy gun access plus untreated mental illness, plus media publicizing of gun massacres showing a role model for the crazed.
Of course the media has to report on these atrocities, but it can serve as a role model for crazed people with abnormal fantasies of violence.
Now added to the TV news is video accessible on line that may motivate future murderers to dramatize their acting out of their paranoia and resentments. Adds a new and ugly factor, that may even cause these massacres to increase.
Of course the media has to report on these atrocities, but it can serve as a role model for crazed people with abnormal fantasies of violence.
Now added to the TV news is video accessible on line that may motivate future murderers to dramatize their acting out of their paranoia and resentments. Adds a new and ugly factor, that may even cause these massacres to increase.
4
It's not gun control or better mental health services. It's both. That's what civilised countries do.
6
We as a people have the power to effect real changes in our gun-obsessed culture. Sadly, we don't have the collective will.
1
Our thoughts should first serve to comfort the family and friends of innocent victims of racial hatred. To those who scream "gun control"- stop. Like it or not, the 2nd Amendment is here and its repeal will never occur. It is a political impossibility. So stop. We live in an era of divisive racial polarization brought about by a government that promotes it. Mr. Obama owns a bully pulpit and he should use it daily to promote dialogue on racial harmony. The remedy for many of our social ills is pound-it-in-your-head education, not golf on Martha's Vineyard. Do your job, Mr. President.
2
"the 2nd Amendment is here and its repeal will never occur"
Gay marriage will never be a reality, either. Most Americans would never accept it.
Blacks should be separate but equal. Society will never accept blacks and whites inter-marrying.
Women will never get the vote. They aren't capable of understanding the issues, and will always remain subordinate to their husbands.
Blacks are not inherently as intelligent as whites, and women are not as intelligent as men. Everyone knows that blacks, and women, don't have the abilities required to succeed in professions such as law and medicine.
Gay marriage will never be a reality, either. Most Americans would never accept it.
Blacks should be separate but equal. Society will never accept blacks and whites inter-marrying.
Women will never get the vote. They aren't capable of understanding the issues, and will always remain subordinate to their husbands.
Blacks are not inherently as intelligent as whites, and women are not as intelligent as men. Everyone knows that blacks, and women, don't have the abilities required to succeed in professions such as law and medicine.
I wonder how people who work jobs at gun manufacturing companies feel? Will they sleep well tonight knowing that their products are getting into the wrong hands?
3
We are so worried about Muslim terrorists, justifiably so, but the amount of death they have cause pales in comparison to our domestic mass murderers, whose easy access to weapons we can thank the wretched NRA for.
Yes, I know it's not the gun that kills people, it's the person. Yet, haven't we seen repeatedly that there are enough deranged individuals who should never feel the grip of a weapon against their hand. yet they have no problems getting them. Banning guns would make it harder for those bent on killing to be successful in their mission.
Any person with a grudge is a person you have to worry might come and kill you.
A sad state of affairs in the country known as the USA. We should not be proud of ourselves.
Yes, I know it's not the gun that kills people, it's the person. Yet, haven't we seen repeatedly that there are enough deranged individuals who should never feel the grip of a weapon against their hand. yet they have no problems getting them. Banning guns would make it harder for those bent on killing to be successful in their mission.
Any person with a grudge is a person you have to worry might come and kill you.
A sad state of affairs in the country known as the USA. We should not be proud of ourselves.
1
Every single gun owner in this country should be asked this question: "Would you have given up your gun if it would have meant saving [Alison Parker/20 Sandy Hook children/etc.]?" If the answer isn't "Yes" then I question their mental capacity to own a gun.
3
As well as their patriotism.
There is nothing patriotic about supporting the Second Amendment. It's wrong and needs to be repealed.
There is nothing patriotic about supporting the Second Amendment. It's wrong and needs to be repealed.
Notice how quickly people lined up in favor of changing the Constitution to nix birthright citizenship? But when it comes to guns, the Constitution is somehow sacrosanct. This simply means there are other, deeper motivations underlying both issues. The oft stated principles are a smokescreen.
4
Civility urges restraint against viewing the video. But maybe we should all be exposed to the brutal violence of shooting a living soul, point blank. Perhaps it's time to see what guns do in that instant, in horrible detail. So many children and adults play video games that mimic this horror constantly, but react numbly. I am beyond fed up. Let us all see the carnage resulting from easy access to guns as it rips apart flesh, families, and our humanity.
3
When I took a handgun safety class to get a concealed handgun license, I had to watch a movie called "Deadly Effects" that showed what bullets do to bodies. Sort of like showing new drivers a gory movie about accidents. It made a big impression on me.
God rest these poor people....
What a tragic and violent waste of life! So much rage and hate out there! Between all the hate filled material, the helplessness, the alienation... and of course minimal to no mental health care, it's inevitable that some people go off their rocker, and just lose it. The terrible thing is KNOWING that you will kill yourself when it's over and still finding it preferable than what you had.
It is even more tragic when you kill those who who you know or even family members.
What a tragic and violent waste of life! So much rage and hate out there! Between all the hate filled material, the helplessness, the alienation... and of course minimal to no mental health care, it's inevitable that some people go off their rocker, and just lose it. The terrible thing is KNOWING that you will kill yourself when it's over and still finding it preferable than what you had.
It is even more tragic when you kill those who who you know or even family members.
Interesting.. after the Charleston shooting, all the NYT posters immediately called it a "race hatred" crime. After this one, they all call it a "gun availability" crime. As if the gun decided to go out and shoot somebody.Why isn't anyone looking at the fact that this guy was crazy and should have been treated?
4
Yes. If we don't have the will for gun control, then we need the will for crazy-person control. Which would require much more of a fundamental change in society than gun control would.
The shooter in Charleston picked 9 random black people because they were black. This guy picked 2 white people he knew because he had a grudge against these induviduals.
Golly, I wonder if making it harder to get guns would make any difference to the number of gun deaths? Naahhh, of course not. The freedom to bear arms (which would of course easily stop any pesky Big Government attempts to keep the citizenry down if they wanted to) is MUCH more important than the freedom to avoid getting randomly murdered by a nutjob every time you leave your house or do your job or go to school.
Derrr, America. So smart in so many ways, but so weird on this one.
Derrr, America. So smart in so many ways, but so weird on this one.
3
SHOOTINGS HAVE BECOME SO COMMON PLACE . . .
...in the U. S. that as each one is reported it has little impact on me. The rate of these gun events is many times per capita the rate of any country in the world.
About 90% of people in the gun culture want background checks. And yet the NRA and the munitions manufacturers block any meaningful action. And when they threaten any politician they mean it.
We need people who have profiles in courage. Not pols who just want the perks and status of their position.
Ergo, get $$$ out of politics.
...in the U. S. that as each one is reported it has little impact on me. The rate of these gun events is many times per capita the rate of any country in the world.
About 90% of people in the gun culture want background checks. And yet the NRA and the munitions manufacturers block any meaningful action. And when they threaten any politician they mean it.
We need people who have profiles in courage. Not pols who just want the perks and status of their position.
Ergo, get $$$ out of politics.
5
Researchers at Harvard, Stanford and elsewhere have shown a correlation between gun availability, right-to-carry gun laws, and firearm homicide. It is as simple as that: more guns = more violent crimes = more homicide.
We need not just common sense gun control but a trigger warning against toxic masculinity in the U.S. For more on this: https://bullybloggers.wordpress.com/2015/08/02/toxic-masculinity-in-the-...
We need not just common sense gun control but a trigger warning against toxic masculinity in the U.S. For more on this: https://bullybloggers.wordpress.com/2015/08/02/toxic-masculinity-in-the-...
1
A weakness in the human brain is that it only sees what it has already experienced. Only the brightest and most creative can actively see potential for healing, when suffering and rejection have been life long experiences. In the case of this assassin, he may have seen everything from the perspective of racism. Therefore, everything that he saw or heard was tinged with perception of racial discrimination. Many people, even when they hear only the word "discrimination" immediately conclude that the meaning is racial discrimination. It is hard to get past a painful past. That's true for everybody, and even more so for people of color.
The article notes that "The shooting and the horrifying images it produced marked a new chapter in the intersection of video, violence and social media."
There are some things we really do not need to know, and making them widely available serves very little purpose other then to pander to deviant interests and encourage other disturbed people to do likewise.
We need to have more positive news and information about who we are as a society and what we do to improve it. We need to hear more about things that are uplifting and that show our higher nature rather than our worst nature. Otherwise, we are going to wallow in our failures rather than celebrate our accomplishments and our efforts to move forward.
There are some things we really do not need to know, and making them widely available serves very little purpose other then to pander to deviant interests and encourage other disturbed people to do likewise.
We need to have more positive news and information about who we are as a society and what we do to improve it. We need to hear more about things that are uplifting and that show our higher nature rather than our worst nature. Otherwise, we are going to wallow in our failures rather than celebrate our accomplishments and our efforts to move forward.
2
The TV and radio media promote these stories WITHOUT editorial comment. They report the President's remarks about guns, mental illness, and violence as just one of many human interest comments on the story. We need the media to start editorializing about the gun and mental illness problems in America. How else to get Americans to understand that this has nothing to do with the second amendment to the constitution!
7
Another senseless tragedy is very sad My despest condolences to family and friends
4
This is another senseless killing and great depravity. My heart goes to the families of Ms. Parker and Mr Ward. Every life matters.
With the way things are going, America may soon become the most dangerous place to live if we fail to take a decisive action on gun control.
With the way things are going, America may soon become the most dangerous place to live if we fail to take a decisive action on gun control.
5
Guns are inherently offensive weapons. US public policy regarding guns as defensive is an outright lie.
12
My grandparents and their ancestors grew up and died in multi-generation homes. We have all observed the steady decline of that practice in the post WWII era. It appears Mr. Flanagan was living entirely alone as his life spiraled downwards to its' tragic ending. I know so many young adults who find themselves in a household of one, often far from family. This must significantly increase the chance that mental imbalance can fester and explode in violence. A supportive family, or in its' absence a supportive communal setting could help reduce such violent acts. I hope our society re-discovers this simple truth.
11
The issue here is not guns. The issue is how this country deals, or more importantly does not deal with the mentally ill population. In every one of these sorts of incidents, you have perpetrators who had a history, and in some instances a long history of mental illness. The problem is this sort of behavior is ignored until a tragedy occurs. What this country needs is a comprehensive system for addressing mental illness that addressed these issues before the tragedy.
2
About time we rise to ban all guns!
8
It is time to disband the World Wide Web. And it is time to limit what we actually SEE on television, as opposed to what we hear about, especially when it comes to violence.
4
Let's get the guns out of people's hands first. The internet doesn't kill people, guns do.
While there's plenty to to be said about the content on social media and network news, I highly doubt censorship is the way to go.
After all, it really works well for places such as North Korea, doesn't it?
After all, it really works well for places such as North Korea, doesn't it?
A little harsh no? Banning it completely, I think not, smacks of China and North Korea limiting what we can see and watch. No time for gun control and stomping out the nra and it's tentacles on washington.
It is really high time that the next President takes a firm view on gun control laws. Normally, around the world, an individual would be allowed to possess a gun only if there is an imminent danger to him or his family, from his adversaries. Likewise, if an individual is living near forest area, to protect himself and his family from attack of wild animals, he could be issued with fire arms. But why should a civilized and highly advanced nation like the U.S. sell guns to all and sundry, just like toys to children? There should be a restriction and criteria for selling guns, at least in future. I think, more than attack from robbers or assailants, it is from the gunfire of fellow citizens, more Americans are dying.
The next President should address gun control laws as the first issue of his / her Presidency.
The next President should address gun control laws as the first issue of his / her Presidency.
11
We still have a congress and a president. Let us ask them to take action now.
3
You have to understand that presidents have little influence over most gun laws. The Supreme Court has ruled that Americans, with some exceptions, have the right to possess firearms. A president can't overturn that. Basically, it would require a constitutional amendment. And support for gun ownership is high in many parts of this country.
I live in a part of the Northeast that's "gun country." The town I live in doesn't even have a police force (nor could we afford one). Almost every household has one or more weapons. Crime is low. I happen to think that our "right" to possess assault-type weapons ought to be questioned, but there are reasonable people who disagree. Some people just don't like the idea of a citizenry that's unarmed, while the state on the one hand and criminals on the other possess weapons.
I live in a part of the Northeast that's "gun country." The town I live in doesn't even have a police force (nor could we afford one). Almost every household has one or more weapons. Crime is low. I happen to think that our "right" to possess assault-type weapons ought to be questioned, but there are reasonable people who disagree. Some people just don't like the idea of a citizenry that's unarmed, while the state on the one hand and criminals on the other possess weapons.
It's never going to happen, NEVER, so long as presidents and senators want to be elected and re-elected year after year. You would have thought that after the Newtown tragedy, but no, our elected officials scared of their own shadows sits on their hands and lets the nra dictate law. Incredible. Blame the republicans for their do nothing attitude time and time again. They are worthless.
2
The first step in curing a disease is an accurate diagnosis. What does America suffer from ? Hubris ? American exceptionalism ? mental health not priority enough ? Whatever it is, let's get a diagnosis please, and then we treat it. We do same for physiological and psychological diseases. Is the collective too large to address ? Perhaps the nation has become too large to manage ? At the very least let us discuss this everyday and everywhere. The people are fed up. At least a significant percentage of the populous.
8
You would like to think that this would bring home to US politicians the absurdity of their gun laws. Unfortunately....
8
What laws would have prevented this man from owning a firearm? He had no felony convictions nor had he been adjudicated mentally ill. You can't deny a constitutional right with judicial action.
2
"Constitutional Rights" can always be amended to reflect the greater needs of society. The framers of the Constitution would never have condoned gun ownership as an absolute Right had they foreseen the nightmare it has become today. It is time to amend the second amendment.
1
I'm sorry. "with" should have read without.
My first instinct upon seeing any tragic news report related to violence and mass killings is always the following question: how are we connecting to each other? What are each of us doing to genuinely look one another in the eyes and see ourselves reflected back? What sort of energy do we bring to our communities and who are we excluding on daily basis? Physically? Psychologically?
We can often not be sitting with those that make us uuncomfortable and hearing their story, holding space for their thoughts and feelings. It takes each one of us to turn inward, to truly seek to understand the core of our own motivations and emotional responses, and to be vulnerable and open with others, knowing that we have all felt betrayed, undermined, or rejected in someway. And yet, we can find love and contentment, maybe first in fleeting moments, and then in changing our patterns, we can create love through us, cultivating compassion. It isn't hard to be kind or to be open, but in a culture of division, it can appear easier to take sides in order to avoid the truth that we are all in one another. We can fear each other because of fear of ourselves. We can love each other because of love of ourselves. The choice is ours, everyday.
We can often not be sitting with those that make us uuncomfortable and hearing their story, holding space for their thoughts and feelings. It takes each one of us to turn inward, to truly seek to understand the core of our own motivations and emotional responses, and to be vulnerable and open with others, knowing that we have all felt betrayed, undermined, or rejected in someway. And yet, we can find love and contentment, maybe first in fleeting moments, and then in changing our patterns, we can create love through us, cultivating compassion. It isn't hard to be kind or to be open, but in a culture of division, it can appear easier to take sides in order to avoid the truth that we are all in one another. We can fear each other because of fear of ourselves. We can love each other because of love of ourselves. The choice is ours, everyday.
32
Very nice. But first, disarm. I can't sit and have "share all the feelings" conversations with you while you're packing.
There is no Utopia, Bonnie. We live in a world inhabited by human beings, none perfect, all faulty. Dream on.
In my experience the very people who are the actual abusers, are most often themselves utterly convinced that they are the victims. And complain loudly, very often MUCH louder than the true abuse victims.
Firearms are designed to short-circuit the intent with actual real effect. Which is truly great in self-defense situations. But what to do with the massive numbers of people (this is NOT a fringe) who honestly, deeply feel that they are in a self-defense situation against their bosses, co-workers, spouses, immigrants stealing jobs, liberals emasculating the nation, bankers robbing the working people, racial enemies, enemies of faith and all these others doing us maliciously a grievous harm?
Firearms are designed to short-circuit the intent with actual real effect. Which is truly great in self-defense situations. But what to do with the massive numbers of people (this is NOT a fringe) who honestly, deeply feel that they are in a self-defense situation against their bosses, co-workers, spouses, immigrants stealing jobs, liberals emasculating the nation, bankers robbing the working people, racial enemies, enemies of faith and all these others doing us maliciously a grievous harm?
17
It's convenient to blame guns and "insanity."
He said he had racial grievances. He also said he had grievances arising from mistreatment resulting from his sexual orientation.
He's not here to prove the reality of those asserted grievances.
Should we assume that every person who commits a violent act because of real grievances resulting from discrimination is "insane?" If so, there may be a lot of "insane" people around, and eliminating guns wouldn't eliminate the violence these people commit.
He said he had racial grievances. He also said he had grievances arising from mistreatment resulting from his sexual orientation.
He's not here to prove the reality of those asserted grievances.
Should we assume that every person who commits a violent act because of real grievances resulting from discrimination is "insane?" If so, there may be a lot of "insane" people around, and eliminating guns wouldn't eliminate the violence these people commit.
4
Even if he were here, could racial prejudice or bias against his sexual orientation justify killing two people who happened to work for his former employer? I don't think so.
4
I have a really hard time understanding why people think that gun control is going to fix this problem. This is not the issue. It's the people behind the gun. The idea that a person who is clearly mentally disturbed with a desire to kill will not use another method to do what he or she intends to do is completely ridiculous. Look, I'm no gun fanatic. I have never nor will I ever own a gun. I see no reason to. Nor am I any sort of gun rights activist. But the reality is that the great majority of gun owners are responsible owners. Mental illness is the real issue and it needs to be addressed. Gun control is taking away from the real issue at hand.
7
It's very sad news, guys. My deep condolences to the families of the dead.
To be honest I agree with position of Hillary Clinton about this news: she said in her Twitter that we need to do something with gun violence in our country. And I agree. Too many people are dead due to actions of armed crazies, enough.
To be honest I agree with position of Hillary Clinton about this news: she said in her Twitter that we need to do something with gun violence in our country. And I agree. Too many people are dead due to actions of armed crazies, enough.
8
I'm grieving tonight.
I agree with those who say our national character is diminishing. Our culture has absorbed increased urbanization and inpersonalization, lessened church attendance, the malevolent NRA, and increasingly violent "entertainment."
I've believed for years that social services and schools would "save" us. But look what's happening to them!
Social services are slashed with every Republican and "corporate Democrat" administration at local and federal levels. Now that those types of politicians all adore charter schools, they will cut public school funding. (Of course, they will cut taxes for the 1% while doing this.)
I just honestly don't see a way out for us. So I'm grieving.
I agree with those who say our national character is diminishing. Our culture has absorbed increased urbanization and inpersonalization, lessened church attendance, the malevolent NRA, and increasingly violent "entertainment."
I've believed for years that social services and schools would "save" us. But look what's happening to them!
Social services are slashed with every Republican and "corporate Democrat" administration at local and federal levels. Now that those types of politicians all adore charter schools, they will cut public school funding. (Of course, they will cut taxes for the 1% while doing this.)
I just honestly don't see a way out for us. So I'm grieving.
9
Very Sad tragedy! Beautiful people lost lives aimlessly! RIP!
7
This is clearly not a well-ordered militia. Time to put the guns away.
27
Please stop giving the publicity this creature sought in committing these inhuman crimes. Tell his named maybe why it happened. But stop there. I don;t care to see his face or hear anymore about him or any of these sick, twisted individuals. And please.....stop the sale of and find a way to destroy these damned weapons. The 2nd amendment was written for a good reason, more than 200 years ago. It no longer is applicable. The British are not coming to harm us.
28
My stomach is in knots. I cannot remember feeling so nauseous, so utterly disturbed. And to what REAL end? The intensity and shock of it all. The idea of Nietzsche that the greatest fear is of one's own imaginings now seems moot. The inescapability of this news and the visuals, as it rippled through social media, perhaps accounts for it.
I mourned the Charleston tragedy (that he pinned that even as his tragedy is all the more devastating), as I now mourn this one, and, god forbid, the one thereafter. My heart and thoughts to the innocent & deceased, their poor friends and families. God.
Hate to admit it but I find a mote of solace in the thought that while Flanagan lived on for those two hours following the ultimately fatal gunshot...
An operational database with stringent mental health monitoring and checks for anyone seeking to own a gun is needed, no doubt. But just curtail ownership all together, please. I've read in the comments that he could have carried out these murders by other means: knives, cards, etc. Sure, it's a neat hypothetical, but improbable. That's all we need: a mitigated probability of these occurrences. Is it not worth it?
In the impassioned words of Mr. Richard Martinez that have never left me: "The talk about gun rights. What about Chris’ [murdered son] right to live?.. When will enough people say: ‘Stop this madness! We don’t have to live like this! Too many people have died!... We should say to ourselves: ‘Not! One! More!"
I mourned the Charleston tragedy (that he pinned that even as his tragedy is all the more devastating), as I now mourn this one, and, god forbid, the one thereafter. My heart and thoughts to the innocent & deceased, their poor friends and families. God.
Hate to admit it but I find a mote of solace in the thought that while Flanagan lived on for those two hours following the ultimately fatal gunshot...
An operational database with stringent mental health monitoring and checks for anyone seeking to own a gun is needed, no doubt. But just curtail ownership all together, please. I've read in the comments that he could have carried out these murders by other means: knives, cards, etc. Sure, it's a neat hypothetical, but improbable. That's all we need: a mitigated probability of these occurrences. Is it not worth it?
In the impassioned words of Mr. Richard Martinez that have never left me: "The talk about gun rights. What about Chris’ [murdered son] right to live?.. When will enough people say: ‘Stop this madness! We don’t have to live like this! Too many people have died!... We should say to ourselves: ‘Not! One! More!"
18
You feel more disturbed by this than by the Charleston killings? Yesterday an apparently mentally ill individual killed two people. In Charlestown a clinically sane racist slaughtered nine. Both are terrible tragedies, but yesterday was worse?
I think a lot of these persons who go berserk instead of getting “tunnel vision,” they get a kind of “tunnel thinking” where the singular and obsessive thought of revenge eventually colors their entire world and they become unthinking (psychological zombie-like) caricatures of free humans, with as much free will as a character in a literal novel or movie (i.e. a literal fictional story). The context-specific vengeful-type thinking they suffer from doesn’t permit them to see outside the tunnel and consider other more rational and sane options; instead it’s as though a narrative has been decided by their subconscious, which, like a writer who has decisively decided upon a theme/plot, is now exclusively concerned with developing said narrative, with having his “main character” (i.e. himself) think and feel and respond to said “narrative” without ever deviating from the role that best matches and reflects said narrative and narrative conclusion, which, alas, is “classically” and stereotypically a murder-suicide conclusion.
4
You can't shoot someone if you don't have a gun.
36
The most over-protected amendment once again usurps others' right to be safe.
36
It's actually only a half-amendment. There's the 'militia' part that gets ignored. Wonder how that happened.
1
These poor young people, gunned down, and their devastated families.
Congress is not going to do anything about this. And it is hard to rein in the NRA. But there has to be something the American public can do. What if there were a serious movement to divest from gun manufacturers? Smith & Wesson, Sturm Ruger, and Freedom Group (Remington, Bushmaster, etc.) are all, I believe, publicly traded companies. It worked for South Africa.
Congress is not going to do anything about this. And it is hard to rein in the NRA. But there has to be something the American public can do. What if there were a serious movement to divest from gun manufacturers? Smith & Wesson, Sturm Ruger, and Freedom Group (Remington, Bushmaster, etc.) are all, I believe, publicly traded companies. It worked for South Africa.
16
Divesting just means selling your stock to someone else. As long as there is a buyer there will be owners of the stock.
I'm sure that Smith, Ruger, Freedom, etc. are really worried that all of the lefties in the USA will divest of their stock. How many shares do you own? I'll buy them from you at twice the value.
1
Three years ago I bought S&W at around $5.50. The last I looked it was close to $15.00. Come on Lefties. If you divest in large enough quantities the stock will be even cheaper.
If I can't get fame I ll take infamy. This is about violence, nihilism, maximizing selfie stardom, social media and gun control.
This cannot be fixed. Some of these issues rest in the twisted soul of a person that is inaccessible to the public.
Laws about gun access, education regarding the social media world only goes so far
but we need to go there.
This cannot be fixed. Some of these issues rest in the twisted soul of a person that is inaccessible to the public.
Laws about gun access, education regarding the social media world only goes so far
but we need to go there.
6
The problem with the Second Amendment is that it is part of an eighteenth-century document—out of touch with the firearm realities of today.
24
To anyone outraged at this, take that to your members of congress, otherwise its pointless
14
Don't we have the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness? Well our right to life comes first and that means we must ban guns forever. Enough of politics and money!
27
You don't have the numbers to revoke the 2nd Amendment, which is what it would take to ban guns forever.
After the French terrorist on the train there was a big story in the Times about security in the European rail system. What to do? How to keep people safe? But that terrorist didn't actually kill anyone. A man with a handgun murdered two people here today - two more innocent people than were killed on the train - and yet there is no urgency to try to keep people safe. It's just unbelievable how inured US society has become to this violence. Living daily life here in the US is literally more dangerous than being in a train car with a man carrying a loaded AK47, but somehow it remains impossible to fix the problem. We're doomed by our own culture. And to everyone who watched those videos on Twitter or YouTube: you are complicit in this carnage.
19
Your comparison to the French train terrorist "near incident" is faulty. Had it not been for the heroic actions of the three guys who acted on instinct on the spur of the moment, we would probably have been reading about "scores killed on French train."
WDBJ is my local CBS station, I've often watched their news. Their usual rule seems to be the cliche, "If it bleeds, it leads." Today, because it was two of their own staff, they couldn't bring themselves to replay the film footage that had aired live. Understandable, and indeed my heart goes out to them.
But why is it all right for them and all the other TV stations to use other people's tragedies as news bait, and to replay the most hair-raising footage they have, over and over? I hope they'll reflect on this as they make their future decisions on what leads the next broadcast.
But why is it all right for them and all the other TV stations to use other people's tragedies as news bait, and to replay the most hair-raising footage they have, over and over? I hope they'll reflect on this as they make their future decisions on what leads the next broadcast.
24
Some have pointed out that there's too many guns out there to ever get rid of the menace of guns.
However, we can control the ammunition. It would take a Congress with a backbone who cared about the thousands of Americans killed every year by guns instead of a good NRA grade.
So where is the "Trump-style" candidate on the left who will rise up and champion "ammunition control" the way the Donald is inciting so much vitriol over immigration? I'll go to that man's (or woman's) rally!
However, we can control the ammunition. It would take a Congress with a backbone who cared about the thousands of Americans killed every year by guns instead of a good NRA grade.
So where is the "Trump-style" candidate on the left who will rise up and champion "ammunition control" the way the Donald is inciting so much vitriol over immigration? I'll go to that man's (or woman's) rally!
13
Any attempt to ban ammunition would be the same as banning firearm ownership. Constitutionally it would not fly.
Controlling the sale of ammunition would be a great first step and have an immediate impact, but the idea that we shouldn't take steps to ban the sale of handguns and semiautomatic weapons because there are so many out there now doesn't make any sense. Over time, such a ban, in conjunction with buy-back programs, would reduce the number of handguns and semiautomatic weapons on the street. It would take many years to clean up the mess we've made, but that shouldn't stop us from trying.
2
If you are referring to Chris Rock's idea of making each bullet cost $1,000, that will not work because ammunition can simply be imported from other countries where it will actually cost a reasonable amount. "But that's illegal!" Who cares? The criminals sure don't. What that will do is make it more difficult for lower-income families to protect themselves, while making it easy for the rich (like Trump) to have as many guns as they want. This is already a problem in New York that does not need to be spread across the country. Interestingly enough, Donald Trump stated that everyone on the left views every gun as an assault weapon. I'm a liberal who is on the left and I realize that "assault weapon" is a bogus term concocted by emotional liberals to further push for gun control as a result of ideas that can be constituted as insanity.
1
Here's another voice to add to the growing chorus: Please stop selling and buying guns. Please. We are not the society that can handle these instruments of death well. We are basically children and children should never know of guns.
And when you add extreme mental illness to the mix, people are going to die.
It is within our power to stop or at least drastically reduce the number of gun homicides in this country and the world. If we can't do that, we can't do anything. And believe me, there's plenty to do. Let's start with the guns. They need to be gotten rid of and soon.
And when you add extreme mental illness to the mix, people are going to die.
It is within our power to stop or at least drastically reduce the number of gun homicides in this country and the world. If we can't do that, we can't do anything. And believe me, there's plenty to do. Let's start with the guns. They need to be gotten rid of and soon.
7
99.99999999999% of legal gun owners did not shoot someone yesterday. Why penalize them for the actions of a few? A higher number of people killed someone while driving.
1
Your figure of 99.999etc is not accurate for starters and cars are not meant to kill. Cars are, in and of themselves, designed for a peaceful purpose, guns are not. See the national gun statistics for amount of homicides per 100,000 citizens and also the lifetime figures. Also, the damage to a society from the horror and shock of gun violence and the sheer number and places that these ongoing gun slaughters take place carry far beyond what a traffic accident would ever be cab able of . . . and you know that.
Stop defending this country's misguided gun ownership laws. It is not what our forefathers intended with the 2nd amendment. And you also know that as well.
Stop defending this country's misguided gun ownership laws. It is not what our forefathers intended with the 2nd amendment. And you also know that as well.
1
" cars are not meant to kill."
An irrelevant point. The point is that they do kill and under the same guidance as guns, human beings. The horror and shock can't be too bad if it's a daily occurrence in Chicago, huh?
What our forefathers intended was for the people to have arms similar to the government's. Nor did they allow for a standing army. That the government has banned equality in armaments for the citizens would probably be appalling to them. Remember it was the states that requested the bill of rights as a protection against what they knew could turn into a master over the creators.
An irrelevant point. The point is that they do kill and under the same guidance as guns, human beings. The horror and shock can't be too bad if it's a daily occurrence in Chicago, huh?
What our forefathers intended was for the people to have arms similar to the government's. Nor did they allow for a standing army. That the government has banned equality in armaments for the citizens would probably be appalling to them. Remember it was the states that requested the bill of rights as a protection against what they knew could turn into a master over the creators.
So long as news outlets give deranged gunmen exactly what they seek--attention and media coverage of their twisted ideologies--this will continue. Relegate these losers to footnotes in the back pages where they belong.
6
I completely agree with other comments about our outrageous gun culture, that is utterly indefensible. But I also notice, time after time, story after story, that there is nothing more dangerous than a young man (or men) with a persecution complex. Why are there so many of them? Are there more than before? Or are they simply more lethal now? I seriously seek answers to these questions about the inner lives of modern young men. What can be done, if anything?
20
@Just Curious: "I seriously seek answers to these questions about the inner lives of modern young men."
Well, no one wants to discuss it but 50-60 years ago societal mores, expectations, and stigmas were more strict and conservative and helped keep behavior in line. But with the antiestablishmentarianism of the '60s, the liberalization of the '70s, the continued pushing against and tearing down of Community standards and values in favor of the unencumbered liberties of the Individual in the decades that followed, we have reaped what we have sowed.
Yes, we had a lot of angry and vengeful people in society decades ago, too, but we also had a society and culture that hadn't yet sold out its moral authority and influence on behavior for the common good.
Well, no one wants to discuss it but 50-60 years ago societal mores, expectations, and stigmas were more strict and conservative and helped keep behavior in line. But with the antiestablishmentarianism of the '60s, the liberalization of the '70s, the continued pushing against and tearing down of Community standards and values in favor of the unencumbered liberties of the Individual in the decades that followed, we have reaped what we have sowed.
Yes, we had a lot of angry and vengeful people in society decades ago, too, but we also had a society and culture that hadn't yet sold out its moral authority and influence on behavior for the common good.
Please, no nonsense about mental health. Anyone can get angry and anyone can get a gun. Thats all it takes.
28
Every month a senseless shooting like this pops up in the news. Sometimes these instances don't even break the front page. It is starting to become the norm.
What has this country come to? I am outraged, sickened, distraught. Does anybody see how insane this is? Where is the anger and demand for change?
I am sick of the political debates. Mental illness, racism, extremism. I don't care about the damn reason, the end result is the same. Completely innocent and unrelated lives, wasted. Gun ownership has never helped a single one of these victims survive. WAKE UP AMERICA. There is no need for a weapon that, with the twitch of a finger, destroys lives and families.
Ban guns in this country. Period. How many times does the NRA have to see this happen before they listen. Perhaps if their family members were victims they would feel differently.
I am so concerned and saddened by the frequency at which shootings in the US occur.
What has this country come to? I am outraged, sickened, distraught. Does anybody see how insane this is? Where is the anger and demand for change?
I am sick of the political debates. Mental illness, racism, extremism. I don't care about the damn reason, the end result is the same. Completely innocent and unrelated lives, wasted. Gun ownership has never helped a single one of these victims survive. WAKE UP AMERICA. There is no need for a weapon that, with the twitch of a finger, destroys lives and families.
Ban guns in this country. Period. How many times does the NRA have to see this happen before they listen. Perhaps if their family members were victims they would feel differently.
I am so concerned and saddened by the frequency at which shootings in the US occur.
25
Intolerance needs to stop.
Yes, "intolerance" of gun control needs to stop.
And individuals driven by persecution complexes need to be identified and given help and oversight.
And individuals driven by persecution complexes need to be identified and given help and oversight.
3
No, intolerance of gun control must continue because gun control does not help in the way liberals think it does. Outlawing firearms will not reduce gun violence, because it will increase it. You tell me how you would survive in a place like Detroit without a gun. Better yet, you tell me as to how you can be so immoral as to take away the guns of all the law-abiding citizens in Detroit, that they have worked so hard to acquire, even though it is fairly easy to acquire them in Michigan. Look at news within the last few weeks; Detroit residents have been killing/immobilizing home-intruders and other criminals. They haven't been shooting each other. How could you do that to them? They now have a way to combat the high crime rate, and you want to take that away from them?
For shame.
For shame.
More gun violence ; we shake our head and say what a shame; then we do nothing. Forgotten in a matter of days. I think we need to be critical of the news stations. Why wasn't the entire video shown? Too graphic, too disturbing? Don't we need to be disturbed? Show the result of this senseless gun violence. The people who reject any common sense regulation on guns should see the results of senseless gun violence. Its a legitimate part of the news story, show it all. Same with those who advocate for the death penalty. Change the law and show the gruesome results of what you unfailingly support
10
As bad as this is things like this happen very often.
There's even a expression used to refer to it.
It's called going postal.
The perpetrator of this terrible tragedy probably had mental health problems that were not being treated.
We have to ask why have so many people who have mental health issues are killing people and is it possible to identify people who are so mentally disturbed they would go postal and if we could is there a treatment that can be given that can stop them and would we have the right to force a treatment on someone who hasn't committed a crime
I believe or at least hope there is something we can do.
There's even a expression used to refer to it.
It's called going postal.
The perpetrator of this terrible tragedy probably had mental health problems that were not being treated.
We have to ask why have so many people who have mental health issues are killing people and is it possible to identify people who are so mentally disturbed they would go postal and if we could is there a treatment that can be given that can stop them and would we have the right to force a treatment on someone who hasn't committed a crime
I believe or at least hope there is something we can do.
2
The phrase "going postal" is a vicious slur against postal workers, who work hard every day and don't deserve such ridicule.
9
People who kill like this, not all have mental illness. They just got mad and emotional and completely went crazy. I have a mental illness, but I don't get rages to where I want to go blow up stuff or shoot people. I think these shooters are more like ppl that don't know how to socialize correctly bc if you look at these shootings its bc the shooter feels a. They aren't be treated right b. They dont have friends c. They're weirdos.
2
Guns and cars each kill about 30,000 people a year and maim/injure many times that each year. The big difference between the two is that cars are required to be inspected, registered and insured EVERY YEAR, and we have to pass a driving test before we can drive a motor vehicle (the bigger, the more rigorous the test). Sounds responsible to me.
If we want a gun, we don't have to register it, have it inspected, or insured.
All we have to do is to have the money to pay for it, and we're good to go.
And many others will pay for the negligence of the NRA.
It's way past time for us to fight back against the extremism of the NRA.
If we want a gun, we don't have to register it, have it inspected, or insured.
All we have to do is to have the money to pay for it, and we're good to go.
And many others will pay for the negligence of the NRA.
It's way past time for us to fight back against the extremism of the NRA.
21
Maybe we could just outlaw ammunition. It's not protected in the constitution.
Besides, guns don't kill people, bullets do.
Besides, guns don't kill people, bullets do.
21
Next time you are watching the media about the violence in Afghanistan, think again. I have lived here for over five years in Kabul and wouldn't trade it for the violence in America ever.
8
As a tv and radio reporter myself I am well aware of the dangers facing all in my field !
There is always going to be the individual or groups affected by news reports and who inevitably bare grudges against reporters conducting interviews or reporting news events !
My condolences to the loved ones of my colleagues in VA. a terrible incident ending their young lives.
Reporting has become rapidly dangerous with over 60 foreign correspondents killed reporting from the middle east alone. We do it as a sense of service and telling it as it happens and like it is !
Dear Mr. Martin,
Thank you very much for joining us on The Larry Elder Show on April 9th, 2013. Your knowledge of the situation in North Korea was very much appreciated and gave our listeners much needed insight on what is REALLY going on at ground level.
Know that we will be contacting you in the future if/when things heat up even further with North Korea.
Warmest Regards,
Audrey Antley
Associate Producer
The Larry Elder Show
Talk Radio 790 KABC
Abc news talk Los Angeles
There is always going to be the individual or groups affected by news reports and who inevitably bare grudges against reporters conducting interviews or reporting news events !
My condolences to the loved ones of my colleagues in VA. a terrible incident ending their young lives.
Reporting has become rapidly dangerous with over 60 foreign correspondents killed reporting from the middle east alone. We do it as a sense of service and telling it as it happens and like it is !
Dear Mr. Martin,
Thank you very much for joining us on The Larry Elder Show on April 9th, 2013. Your knowledge of the situation in North Korea was very much appreciated and gave our listeners much needed insight on what is REALLY going on at ground level.
Know that we will be contacting you in the future if/when things heat up even further with North Korea.
Warmest Regards,
Audrey Antley
Associate Producer
The Larry Elder Show
Talk Radio 790 KABC
Abc news talk Los Angeles
Since our elected representatives fail to protect the people who they serve, it seems only fitting that no American should pay any taxes.
Let the NRA pick up our governments bills, since they own our politicians.
Let the NRA pick up our governments bills, since they own our politicians.
26
Here's the simple and perfectly logical choice we face as a society, and one the NRA and gun manufacturers will never let us make: (1) try to identify and get all people with severe mental health problems in America into treatment before they can kill someone, or (2) restrict access to guns to only a small percentage of carefully screened owners. Amazing that such a logical, straightforward choice can be made to seem insurmountable.
11
"restrict access to guns to only a small percentage of carefully screened owners."
This matter has already been settled by the Supreme Court, so you can stop beating that dead horse. In order to substantially limit firearm ownership in this country, the 2nd Amendment will need to be repealed. Amendments to the Constitution require 2/3 of both the Senate and the House of Representatives, followed by ratification 3/4 of all state legislatures. Good luck! (But don't hold your breath.)
This matter has already been settled by the Supreme Court, so you can stop beating that dead horse. In order to substantially limit firearm ownership in this country, the 2nd Amendment will need to be repealed. Amendments to the Constitution require 2/3 of both the Senate and the House of Representatives, followed by ratification 3/4 of all state legislatures. Good luck! (But don't hold your breath.)
Well, SCOTUS could also overturn their own precedent, which is more likely.
Here we go again.
More gun deaths in the USA and the reason is obvious, and the apologists will be out again, but please don't pontificate about the mental health or otherwise of each and every murderer who uses a firearm to kill another human being. Four things are obvious:
1. The relatively free and easy availability of weapons as compared to any other 'western' nation.
2. A society with a constant diet of anger, or 'retribution' as portrayed in almost each and every film or TV show - so violence becomes "the norm" and idiots act out the stereotype.
3 The nonsensical NRA, and
4 The mis-interpretation of the 'Right to bear Arms'
Who was it who said "What you sow, so shall you reap".
But these days the internet exposes the horrible, raw truth to the wider world who, yet again, stand back aghast. Remove the availability of guns, and remove the temptation of immature, mad, bad, or mentally ill people to use them. Easy.
More gun deaths in the USA and the reason is obvious, and the apologists will be out again, but please don't pontificate about the mental health or otherwise of each and every murderer who uses a firearm to kill another human being. Four things are obvious:
1. The relatively free and easy availability of weapons as compared to any other 'western' nation.
2. A society with a constant diet of anger, or 'retribution' as portrayed in almost each and every film or TV show - so violence becomes "the norm" and idiots act out the stereotype.
3 The nonsensical NRA, and
4 The mis-interpretation of the 'Right to bear Arms'
Who was it who said "What you sow, so shall you reap".
But these days the internet exposes the horrible, raw truth to the wider world who, yet again, stand back aghast. Remove the availability of guns, and remove the temptation of immature, mad, bad, or mentally ill people to use them. Easy.
14
Sure. Then we can be like Great Britain and Australia where the murder rate is the same only using knives, clubs, strangulation and arson. The forceful taking of their firearms changed nothing.
There was a time, not that long ago, that to watch a 'snuff' video was considered participating in in the most depraved act... really perverse. Now murders, by lone wolves, or savage groups like Isis are eagerly devoured and shared... common fare on social media... news organizations have to search their corporate souls about what to broadcast. Folks... it's still perverse to watch this stuff and equally to share it. What if those that contemplate their moment of glory and media fame before taking lives- others and their own, knew that their names would never be uttered by another living soul until the end of creation. They say that death really comes when there is no one alive on earth who remembers that you ever existed. Let us remember the slain and stop feeding the memory of the killers.
9
We have a lot of information about Mr. Flanagan and his mental health problems. I challenge someone from the gun rights community to identify at what point Mr. Flanagan should have his 2nd Amendment rights infringed.
To just say that this event could have been averted with better mental health care is to just bury our heads in the sand. All of these killings could have been averted if the killers had their 2nd Amendment rights rescinded.
To just say that this event could have been averted with better mental health care is to just bury our heads in the sand. All of these killings could have been averted if the killers had their 2nd Amendment rights rescinded.
4
Incredibly saddened to learn of these deaths and that they were broadcast in that manner. I hope the loved ones of these two dynamic, young people find some peace in this, the worst moment in their lives.
Mr. Flannigan certainly proved to be a bomb, a bomb with a gun. It gives me a sense of fear and worry that violent, angry people like Mr.Flannigan find it easier to reach for a gun and a smart phone, than to reach out for help. No one is to blame for this but Mr.Flannigan, but phenomenal spread of violent behavior on social media needs to be addressed, scientifically of otherwise.
Mr. Flannigan certainly proved to be a bomb, a bomb with a gun. It gives me a sense of fear and worry that violent, angry people like Mr.Flannigan find it easier to reach for a gun and a smart phone, than to reach out for help. No one is to blame for this but Mr.Flannigan, but phenomenal spread of violent behavior on social media needs to be addressed, scientifically of otherwise.
5
According to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, in 2013 firearms (excluding BB and pellet guns) caused 84,258 nonfatal injuries (26.65 per 100,000 U.S. citizens) and 33,636 deaths (10.6 per 100,000).
There are 319 million people in the U.S., which means about 1 out of every 2,705 people in the U.S. was shot by a firearm in 2013; about 1 out of every 9,484 people in the U.S. was killed by a firearm in 2013.
Extrapolating over a typical lifetime of 74 years and assuming the above trends continue, 1 out of 37 people currently alive in the U.S. will be shot by a firearm during their lifetime; 1 out of every 128 people in the U.S. will be killed by a firearm during their lifetime, most well before they reach 74 years of age (about 1 out 192 will commit suicide with a gun, while 1 out of 384 will be shot to death by somebody else with a gun).
There are 319 million people in the U.S., which means about 1 out of every 2,705 people in the U.S. was shot by a firearm in 2013; about 1 out of every 9,484 people in the U.S. was killed by a firearm in 2013.
Extrapolating over a typical lifetime of 74 years and assuming the above trends continue, 1 out of 37 people currently alive in the U.S. will be shot by a firearm during their lifetime; 1 out of every 128 people in the U.S. will be killed by a firearm during their lifetime, most well before they reach 74 years of age (about 1 out 192 will commit suicide with a gun, while 1 out of 384 will be shot to death by somebody else with a gun).
9
Your probability analyses errs in multiple ways.
There are many calls here for regulating guns, but I do not see a practical way to do this in a country that has hundreds of millions of guns already in circulation. Gun enthusiasts would go medieval on anyone who tried to take away their guns. No law is going to stop Americans from buying, selling and trading guns. I'm afraid that the horse left the barn a couple hundred years ago as far as the issue of guns in America is concerned. This is the country we live in. I'm not thrilled about it. I have never personally owned a gun, but I'm realistic enough to know that trying to legislate them away is pure fantasy. We all want an answer but the fact is we are a violent country and we are armed to the teeth.
12
The problem I have about the gun debate is that there is little attention paid to who pulls the trigger. The sensational cases are often committed by mentally ill people and the day to day carnage is disproportionately committed by blacks. Yet it's rarely brought up by polite society. We are all just supposed to go on like as if the guns fire themselves.
7
"Polite society" can't bring up such topics in the gun debate because of the inevitable distracting defensive backlash that it's not PC.
My deepest condolences to the families of these two young people, and to the families of the young people who will be shot dead tomorrow, the next day and the next day while the cowards in Washington blithely attend their fundraisers and ask their donors what color tie they should wear today.
13
Some states require applicants for a firears permit to submit to rigorous background checking, including references, including from employers. These states are rewarded with rates of death from firearms many times lower than states that drag their feet on meeting Federal minimum requirements.
This atrocity would not likely have occurred in one of the states that cares about who has access to lethal weapons.
This atrocity would not likely have occurred in one of the states that cares about who has access to lethal weapons.
3
Once again, the silence of the NRA is stunning. Every time an innocent life is lost to a disgruntled person with a gun, the usually verbose NRA has nothing to say. And every time a depressed individual takes his or her own life with a gun, the NRA, usually so anxious to put a gun in every American's hand, has nothing to say.
16
Why should the NRA issue a statement? Does AAA comment on every car-related fatality?
1
The NRA actively lobbies Congressmen and women to vote against common-sense gun safety legislation. To my knowledge, AAA does not lobby against laws intended to make driving safer. That's a big difference in the two organizations, Free Radical.
2
Repeal the Second Amendment!
The time has come.
The time has come.
31
Let's start with the 14th.
You'll need a 2/3's vote of both houses of Congress and then 3/4th's of the State Legislatures to agree with you
Should the issue actually come up before Congress I'll be contacting my representatives and asking them to vote no! The same as I would if someone wanted to modify or repeal the 1st amendment, the 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th etc etc...
You of course can contact yours as well and express to them your views!
Representative democracy is one of the things that makes this country great!
I have feeling the Bill of Rights will not be modified anytime soon!
Thank God for Madison and Jefferson, Monroe, Sherman,Morris, King, Wilson, et al!
Should the issue actually come up before Congress I'll be contacting my representatives and asking them to vote no! The same as I would if someone wanted to modify or repeal the 1st amendment, the 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th etc etc...
You of course can contact yours as well and express to them your views!
Representative democracy is one of the things that makes this country great!
I have feeling the Bill of Rights will not be modified anytime soon!
Thank God for Madison and Jefferson, Monroe, Sherman,Morris, King, Wilson, et al!
1
I understand, javajunkie. Yes, now is the time to get this started. I understand it threatens you, but that is too bad.
Note that NRA gun logic is never applied to abortion:
"What? Limit Planned Parenthood centers because abortions might happen there? Why, that's ridiculous. There could be a center on every corner and it wouldn't change the rate. A person who wants to abort will find a way; she'll drink poison, throw herself downstairs, or pierce her insides with a knitting needle. Access to safe OB-GYN care saves women's lives, and life is a right that must not be infringed. Manual Vacuum Aspirators don't kill babies. People do."
The all-or-nothing debates that we have in this nation are ridiculous. Clearly, access to something (abortions, guns, one-click shopping, whatever) will increase the rate of occurrence. At the same time, human intention also plays a role. There is no reason that we can't work on both ends of the problem: gun regulation and improved mental healthcare.
And we need to overhaul our culture. How often do you watch, read about, carry out, and promote acts of kindness? What was the last film that you watched that featured acts of kindness? What was the last song you sung that spoke of acts of kindness? What was the last game you played that revolved around the practice of kindness? When did you last pay it forward? When did you last do something nice for no particular reason?
What is your daily harm to harmony ratio?
"What? Limit Planned Parenthood centers because abortions might happen there? Why, that's ridiculous. There could be a center on every corner and it wouldn't change the rate. A person who wants to abort will find a way; she'll drink poison, throw herself downstairs, or pierce her insides with a knitting needle. Access to safe OB-GYN care saves women's lives, and life is a right that must not be infringed. Manual Vacuum Aspirators don't kill babies. People do."
The all-or-nothing debates that we have in this nation are ridiculous. Clearly, access to something (abortions, guns, one-click shopping, whatever) will increase the rate of occurrence. At the same time, human intention also plays a role. There is no reason that we can't work on both ends of the problem: gun regulation and improved mental healthcare.
And we need to overhaul our culture. How often do you watch, read about, carry out, and promote acts of kindness? What was the last film that you watched that featured acts of kindness? What was the last song you sung that spoke of acts of kindness? What was the last game you played that revolved around the practice of kindness? When did you last pay it forward? When did you last do something nice for no particular reason?
What is your daily harm to harmony ratio?
10
They are the NRA and allied firearms enthusiasts. We are their involuntary shooting gallery.
14
As always my second question is, "where did this person buy his gun" and does the seller have any regrets? When a bartender serves a customer one too many drinks and then crashes his car killing or injuring another person, lawyers for those injured often sue the saloon, bar, lounge that served that fatal beverage. And the suit is contested. Not so with guns. That should change. Add insurance to gun ownership. An industry is waiting.
13
This is indeed a tragedy. However, the gunman claimed he was the victim of racism and homophobia. The company fired him because he did not fit in. Why didn't he fit in? Was it because of his race? Was it because he was gay? His EOEC lawsuit was through out. I know from experience that bias in employment decisions are difficult to prove. If your boss doesn't want you, you are gone. All of this however does not give the gun man the right to kill these people. But society, corporations and businesses especially, needs to consider how they treat its marginalized members.
5
The company personnel do not say they fired him merely for not fitting in. They say they fired him for erratic behavior and creating a hostile work environment. They wanted him to go to employee assistance. They may be entirely truthful and the fact that employee assistance services were recommended and thought necessary by management looks prescient, doesn't it? He likely did encounter discrimination as a black gay man at points in his life,, but that does not translate to this firing having been racially motivated or unjustified.
As far as how marginalized people are treated by organizations when they are fired, how about broadening that to how anyone is treated when fired? Not pretty... but that does not translate to all firings being unjustified nor all escorts out of buildings being unnecessary.
As far as how marginalized people are treated by organizations when they are fired, how about broadening that to how anyone is treated when fired? Not pretty... but that does not translate to all firings being unjustified nor all escorts out of buildings being unnecessary.
1
At some point the NRA and the radical minority so in love with their guns has to take responsibility for a large part of the American carnage.
It's tragic, of course it's societal madness, and it's so very, very sad.
It's tragic, of course it's societal madness, and it's so very, very sad.
9
This is beyond gun issues. This is even more than a comment on our mental health system. It goes to culture - a culture that denies personal responsibility, a culture that encourages aggrievement, a culture that denies that life sometimes doesn't go one's way, a culture that puts paid to the idea one can have any of their hopes and desires filled. Once we as a culture admit that life is not full of limitless possibilities, then we will be on the way to a more realistic view of life.
9
No, it's really not "beyond" gun issues. Without the gun, the guy might still be angry or mentally ill, but those people probably wouldn't be dead.
7
I agree 100%.
A former television news anchor carefully enacts a brutal murder on live television and every news organization in the country rushes to describe it or show it or link it or debate it. Frankly, it is appalling.
Paddy Chayefsky's brilliant 1976 film called "Network" was considered a clever farce in its time. Today it looks like prophecy. There is a lot of money to be made here.
Paddy Chayefsky's brilliant 1976 film called "Network" was considered a clever farce in its time. Today it looks like prophecy. There is a lot of money to be made here.
8
Madness gets repeated time and again, sadness engulfs the country umpteen times, sympathies flow a million times and gun deaths in large scale simply won't stop, that's the story of America. Americans always talk about gun control but why not discuss gun possession.
1
A suspect being interviewed Then out of nowhere a fired news reporter wanted revenge for firing him. So he stumbled Upon a news reporter during an interview. Then before you know it BANG! the reporter and the person being interviewed were both dead. it was on live television. And it was a tragedy. Because 2 innocent lives were taken for being fired. The suspect had rage apparently. The man should have not taken it so seriously. In my opinion and probably everybody's opinion is that he over reacted over nothing.
Clearly you are not paying attention - it was the reporter and her cameraman who were killed; the interviewee was wounded and will survive. This is a clear example of workplace violence. However, in this case, his colleagues, supervisors and agency did their best to mitigate the situation and get him some treatment through employee assistance until it became so intolerable, he was terminated from employment. Scary because from today's reports, the job did the right thing and did NOT ignore the signs of potential workplace violence (which most places of employment do).
1
As we struggle with whether or not to shut down his social media sites (presumably out of respect for the victims), I can't help but notice it is yet just another distraction from the real issue at hand - the easy access of guns.
If this happened in Europe or anywhere else in the free world, the video in its unedited entirety would have been shown repeatedly - without hesitation - on TV to remind viewers of the true horror of guns and the finality of death.
As Americans (my husband is French), we continue to censor anything displeasing and take great pains to ignore the real danger in our society, namely us. We are, once again, societally responsible for this through our complacency, inaction and, yes, censorship.
More broken hearts and broken families. And not one human being in our Congress will have the moxie to take on the NRA and the fear-mongers.
Next shooting, then. They're rather commonplace now, aren't they?
If this happened in Europe or anywhere else in the free world, the video in its unedited entirety would have been shown repeatedly - without hesitation - on TV to remind viewers of the true horror of guns and the finality of death.
As Americans (my husband is French), we continue to censor anything displeasing and take great pains to ignore the real danger in our society, namely us. We are, once again, societally responsible for this through our complacency, inaction and, yes, censorship.
More broken hearts and broken families. And not one human being in our Congress will have the moxie to take on the NRA and the fear-mongers.
Next shooting, then. They're rather commonplace now, aren't they?
10
I live in Europe and I can tell you that this video would not have been shown repeatedly in its entirety.
Today for the 1st time in my life, I realized that my extended family--daughter, nieces, nephews, brothers, sisters, aunts, uncles, babies, husband, mother-- 50+ members -- that one or more of them will most likely be the victim of gun violence BECAUSE THE NRA HAS A STRANGLEHOLD ON OUR LEGISLATORS AND OUR LEADERS.
Sad and tragic that this country is losing so many fine, innocent people who were in the wrong place at the wrong time or were the target of someone who was unstable but managed to get their hands on a gun.
Sad and tragic that this country is losing so many fine, innocent people who were in the wrong place at the wrong time or were the target of someone who was unstable but managed to get their hands on a gun.
23
I respect Hillary Clinton for speaking out for gun control. It seems to be a controversial issue to speak out in support of (although I have no idea why?).
Every time a gun is involved in multiple deaths, my first thought is why did this person have a gun?
Every time a gun is involved in multiple deaths, my first thought is why did this person have a gun?
20
"why did this person have a gun?"
Because there was no compelling reason to deny him the ability to purchase a firearm, which just goes to show that gun control cannot prevent these shootings. What everyone seems to ignore is that this person had a spotless criminal and mental health background. He could have easily complied with any gun law anywhere in this country.
Because there was no compelling reason to deny him the ability to purchase a firearm, which just goes to show that gun control cannot prevent these shootings. What everyone seems to ignore is that this person had a spotless criminal and mental health background. He could have easily complied with any gun law anywhere in this country.
1
Actually he did not. He had to be escorted by police off the premise when he got fired 2 years ago. It should be common sense law, even in America that anyone with any record whatsoever or angry tendencies be denied a gun. Or have existing right revoked. It's not rocket science
I hope there is a thorough investigation of all that factored into this shooting including the diagnoses of Vester Flanagan, what medications he was taking and what treatment he was receiving, as well as the history of his grievances. This is not to excuse his behavior, but to fully understand it.
6
This is a terrible occurrence. It seems that our society is full of anger. How sad for the innocent people involved. It makes people feel scared to do anything.! I'm worried about this society we live in. If more people would respect and forgive we would be better off. The shooter must have been mentally unstable too. God bless the people who died.
5
Every time a tragedy like this happens we search for easy answers and solutions, but there are none to be had here. It is doubtful more gun laws would have prevented the killer from getting a gun or that better mental health services would have reached him. After the church shooting in Charlotte we seized on bringing down the confederate flag to comfort and tell ourselves we could change something but no one really believed that could end violence in America or our racial divisions.
The awful, constant violence in America goes deeper than the proliferation of guns; it goes to the heart of what we have become since the early nineties. We are a nation seething with anger with a culture and media that feeds and stokes that anger daily. We have spent the last month and a half celebrating a book by a nihilistic author that is nothing but articulated rage. Watch Cable TV news and all you get is resentment and complaints each side equal only in the depth of their aggrievement. Every problem in every movie and TV show is solved with violence. Anger, hate, resentment, violence and guns sell and in a society where that is all that matters you are going to be awash in all of them.
The usual solutions people talk about may help some, but only a more equal society that delivers prosperity for all instead of the few will make the anger go away. We need a whole lot of that thing that there is always too little of.
The awful, constant violence in America goes deeper than the proliferation of guns; it goes to the heart of what we have become since the early nineties. We are a nation seething with anger with a culture and media that feeds and stokes that anger daily. We have spent the last month and a half celebrating a book by a nihilistic author that is nothing but articulated rage. Watch Cable TV news and all you get is resentment and complaints each side equal only in the depth of their aggrievement. Every problem in every movie and TV show is solved with violence. Anger, hate, resentment, violence and guns sell and in a society where that is all that matters you are going to be awash in all of them.
The usual solutions people talk about may help some, but only a more equal society that delivers prosperity for all instead of the few will make the anger go away. We need a whole lot of that thing that there is always too little of.
9
"The awful, constant violence in America goes deeper than the proliferation of guns;"
But seriously? Who cares? Though that sounds flip, I truly don't care about any more analyses about our supposedly declining society, and my eyes glaze over reading all the posts about 1) video games and violent movies; 2) antidepressants; 3) the terrible state of mental health care; 4) fluoride in the water; 5) vaccines; or 6) deep cultural pathologies blah blah. No doubt we are one effed up society, but spare me more bogus psychoanalyzing of society.
It's the guns, stupid! Put down the guns! Put them down, walk away, and pass a bunch of bold laws outlawing them. We shouldn't be walking around with these things - people get hurt! Yes, I'm screwed up, you're screwed up, the whole society is screwed up - isn't that why we shouldn't all be walking around armed?!
But seriously? Who cares? Though that sounds flip, I truly don't care about any more analyses about our supposedly declining society, and my eyes glaze over reading all the posts about 1) video games and violent movies; 2) antidepressants; 3) the terrible state of mental health care; 4) fluoride in the water; 5) vaccines; or 6) deep cultural pathologies blah blah. No doubt we are one effed up society, but spare me more bogus psychoanalyzing of society.
It's the guns, stupid! Put down the guns! Put them down, walk away, and pass a bunch of bold laws outlawing them. We shouldn't be walking around with these things - people get hurt! Yes, I'm screwed up, you're screwed up, the whole society is screwed up - isn't that why we shouldn't all be walking around armed?!
10
Although I find the thought of using such tragedies to further strengthen certain political agendas distasteful and often indifferent to the grief, I believe in the importance of having national conversations to prevent disturbed individuals from committing such senseless violence. It is truly heartbreaking to know that Alison and Adam lost their lives because a dismissed employee wanted to express his job frustrations to the world in the most horrific fashion. This individual raised some red flags with his "bizarre behavior" and complaints that I think should have led to some surveillance and investigation by the authorities considering that he recently became a gun owner. There's a lesson in the fact that his complaint was lodged as baseless; either the source or the complaint itself must be examined for a motive (beyond the financial implications).
6
Unanswered question: How did the shooter know where Parker and Ward would be at 6:30 a.m.? He had to have some inside information. He sure didn't show up at the shopping plaza by chance.
13
This question has been bothering me, too, and yours is the first comment I've found that asks it.
1
[[sharpshin USA 1 hour ago
Unanswered question: How did the shooter know where Parker and Ward would be at 6:30 a.m.? He had to have some inside information. He sure didn't show up at the shopping plaza by chance.]]
You're kidding, right? The anchors announce during the broadcast where the reporters will be.
Unanswered question: How did the shooter know where Parker and Ward would be at 6:30 a.m.? He had to have some inside information. He sure didn't show up at the shopping plaza by chance.]]
You're kidding, right? The anchors announce during the broadcast where the reporters will be.
Terrible. The poor girl screams as life just shot out of her. RIP.
3
How is this different from execution videos and beheadings on Facebook? Why is it acceptable to see foreigners killed, but our own people whom we identify with we take down.
Don't get me wrong, I think this type of deadly violence should not be available on media. I just think a flagrant double standard exists. We should have a "violence obscenity" law and enforcement.
Don't get me wrong, I think this type of deadly violence should not be available on media. I just think a flagrant double standard exists. We should have a "violence obscenity" law and enforcement.
5
And why does the U.S. need a violence obscenity law but not other free countries? The problem lies elsewhere.
3
I think we are all over looking some of the main causes of gun violence in the US. We need to look at the movies and the games we play. They are full of people shooting people and are very graphic and kids and young people get use to killing people in their games and I think some can not separate the real from the games in their minds. This killing is a sad thing and I am truly feel for the familes and friends of these young people. We have more gun laws on the books that are not enforced that would stop most of the gun crime in the US. It is people killing people NOT GUNS killing people. We need to look at helping the mental ill and putting the bad guys in jail and keeping them there. In many of the comments I have read here there seems to be a lot of people talking about racism and white people not admitting it happens. Sure it happens and it will all ways be here. I think the black people should admit that it goes it goes both ways. Why has this not been tagged a hate crime and why are there no people looting and burning the town. White lives matter as much as black lives and these two where not armed and where gunned down by a black man. people can not have it only one way all lives matter.
14
"It is people killing people NOT GUNS killing people. "
Every time someone gets shot, I can guarantee you that the shooter had a gun, and fired it at the other person. And I can also guarantee you, 100%, that if the person had NOT had that gun in their hand right then, they would NOT have shot the other person. Did I have to be really brilliant to figure this out? No, I did not.
Every time someone gets shot, I can guarantee you that the shooter had a gun, and fired it at the other person. And I can also guarantee you, 100%, that if the person had NOT had that gun in their hand right then, they would NOT have shot the other person. Did I have to be really brilliant to figure this out? No, I did not.
9
No, this does NOT go both ways. You'd like to believe that the killing of 2 people, who happen to be caucasians and who allegedly bullied and were racist towards the perpetrator, to mean now the problem of racism is equal among whites and blacks in this country? What a self-serving, distorted, ignorant, opportunist you are. This country has institutionalized racism, which means, it's built to favor euro-americans and to discriminate against everyone else, not just to blacks, although they get the brunt of it. We've seen the police murdering unarmed afro-americans, while the caucasian community refuse to even talk about it nor blame the police for these murders. This is NOT a hate crime b/c he wasn't out to kill all caucasians but was out to kill 2 specific people who happened to be white. He was allegedly the victim of racism and unfair mistreatment by his colleagues. I'm not justifying the perpetrator's actions at all, but your comment is so off-base and wrong, I had to say something. No, I'm not black nor white.
Nothing of significance will change until we get money out of politics. The NRA has bought our politicians and all Obama can do is pay lip service to the issue.
22
We're crossing a sad and tragic turning point in this country ... we are quickly becoming an adrenal rushed, hyper-plugged in, modern day version of the wild west. Corruption reigns in governing and guns rule the day.
16
The reproduction and distribution of these events is the very definition of pornography. The name and personal history of the individual in question is not worthy of mention. To do so completes his plan, abets his crime, furthers his intentions, and encourages others to imitate his actions.
4
When are we going to get sensible legislation on the books to regulate firearms and those who possess them? Most of the people responsible for much of the heartache associated with firearms are suffering from a mental disorder or severe mental distress and this is something that needs to be fixed- the NRA be damned.
I understand the Second Amendment, but also know the Federal Government has a compelling interest in protecting those of us who do not wish to live in an armed madhouse (Thanks, Greg Palast). My right to life- as in life, liberty and pursuit of happiness is as old and cherished a tradition as any right to keep and bear arms.
People should have to be subjected to a Psychological Examination before becoming licensed to own a firearm- yes I said licensed. If I buy a boat, plane or a car I am subject to licensure, taxation, registration and regulation and the same should apply to all firearms. Any Medical practitioner should be required to inform police when someone is diagnosed with a Psychiatric disorder, put on medications that effect behavior, or exhibit suicidal tendencies so that they have to- at least temporarily- surrender their firearms.
I understand the Second Amendment, but also know the Federal Government has a compelling interest in protecting those of us who do not wish to live in an armed madhouse (Thanks, Greg Palast). My right to life- as in life, liberty and pursuit of happiness is as old and cherished a tradition as any right to keep and bear arms.
People should have to be subjected to a Psychological Examination before becoming licensed to own a firearm- yes I said licensed. If I buy a boat, plane or a car I am subject to licensure, taxation, registration and regulation and the same should apply to all firearms. Any Medical practitioner should be required to inform police when someone is diagnosed with a Psychiatric disorder, put on medications that effect behavior, or exhibit suicidal tendencies so that they have to- at least temporarily- surrender their firearms.
14
Your analogy between driving and firearm ownership could not be more flawed. Driving is a PRIVILEGE that can be restricted at will by the authorities. The right to own a firearm is a PERSONAL right that has been repeatedly affirmed by the Supreme Court and is explicitly protected by the Bill of Rights. Unlike privileges, rights are not subject to licensure.
2
Being the victim of racism is not a mental disorder.
1
Until the bottom-feeders in the TV news media (I'm looking at you, Fox) change their policy of making the latest carnage a new occasion for breathless "breaking news" with endless video loops of the event and in-your-face interviews with stunned bystanders, this vicious cycle will - sadly - continue. But then again, policy change for this sort of coverage by these networks would require their executives to have a social conscience - which by all appearances is completely subordinate to their cravings for higher Neilson ratings.
8
It is illogical to evoke gun control based on this incident. This individual was able to purchase a gun in any state and comply with any gun control law, either existing or proposed. But then again, anti-gun extremists are not known for making logically coherent arguments in support of their unreasonable views on gun control. They whine endlessly without proposing a single plausible solution for reducing gun violence. All I ever hear from them is "too many guns out there", "something needs to be done", "but Europe banned guns", "would somebody please think of the children?!", and other such pointless platitudes.
Anti-gun extremists seem to have trouble accepting reality, which is that a) with 400 million firearms in private hands, there will never be a shortage of firearms in this country, and 2) that civilian firearm ownership is enshrined in the Bill of Rights, and there is nothing that anyone can do to significantly curtail it.
Anti-gun extremists seem to have trouble accepting reality, which is that a) with 400 million firearms in private hands, there will never be a shortage of firearms in this country, and 2) that civilian firearm ownership is enshrined in the Bill of Rights, and there is nothing that anyone can do to significantly curtail it.
9
If you refuse to look at the multitudes of other first world, relatively similar countries who evolved to decrease their rates of firearm deaths and their successes (e.g. Australia), what is your solution? Or do you suggest we just sit back and let more innocent people die? And by the way according to the Pew Research Center in 2014, only 34% of households (the majority of them conservative households) have firearms. The majority of the U.S. doesn't own firearms and guess what? We don't kill people with firearms, we are murdered by people that live in the 34% of households that do own firearms.
3
Recent surveys also revealed that the majority of Americans believe that preservation of gun rights takes precedence over new gun control.
Speaking of surveys -- sensitive topics such as gun ownership are known to have a negative bias as large as 50%. Therefore, it would not be surprising if the actual rate of firearm ownership is well above 50%. The hard statistics, such as the number of concealed carry permits and firearm purchases, all point to a rising rate of firearm ownership. Furthermore, your argument makes the false assumption that anyone who does not own a gun is a gun control supporter. Plenty of people support gun rights while choosing not to own a gun for one reason or another. In addition to that, quite a few people want to own a gun but happen to live in a state/city with draconian gun laws (such as NYC or LA), where obtaining a firearm permit is just too much trouble.
Speaking of surveys -- sensitive topics such as gun ownership are known to have a negative bias as large as 50%. Therefore, it would not be surprising if the actual rate of firearm ownership is well above 50%. The hard statistics, such as the number of concealed carry permits and firearm purchases, all point to a rising rate of firearm ownership. Furthermore, your argument makes the false assumption that anyone who does not own a gun is a gun control supporter. Plenty of people support gun rights while choosing not to own a gun for one reason or another. In addition to that, quite a few people want to own a gun but happen to live in a state/city with draconian gun laws (such as NYC or LA), where obtaining a firearm permit is just too much trouble.
1
Will the NRA say the reporters should have been armed to protect themselves? Will they say every media team should have armed guards, like they suggest every school should have? Where is the wisdom from the gun promoters? We should hear from them. The guns-o-plenty gang ought to have something useful to add to this discussion. Ya think?
17
Why should the NRA have anything to add? As is the case in the majority of such incidents, the murders were perpetrated by a liberal democrat. Perhaps the democratic party should start taking responsibility for the actions of its constituents?
6
Another shooting. Another tragedy. More prayers from politicians. Nothing changes. Gun violence costs this country in excess of $299 billion a year, never mind the emotional toll it takes on families, friends and communities. Well will we say 'enough'?
17
First the politicians are afraid of the NRA, and, once again in incidents like todays gun murders, the media is afraid of the elephant in the room, guns. They all talk about mental health, racism, lack of civil discourse, social media, vodeo games, etc, etc. being the cause.
Plain and simple, a messed up person had access to a firearm and that gave him courage. No gun and he would have just stewed in his misery until he decided to get on with his life. Or so we can wish.
Plain and simple, a messed up person had access to a firearm and that gave him courage. No gun and he would have just stewed in his misery until he decided to get on with his life. Or so we can wish.
16
Just the other day, my wife was in her local Kroger shopping for groceries. She saw a big guy -- a really big guy -- dressed in black, strutting around, a pistol on his hip in full display. Kroger is too timid to ban guns inside their stores. Other customers wouldn't dare to tell this sociopath to get lost, and legislators keep expanding the places where guns are allowed, including churches, day care centers, bars -- just about anywhere but legislative chambers.
Folks, we've lost our way.
Folks, we've lost our way.
64
This murderer spelled out the ugly truth. He studied and copied other mass shooters, seeking to "out kill" them or at least to maximize his press coverage. How many more are buying guns and writing their "manifestos?"
9
These were horribly sad undeserved deaths of completely innocent people, and the injury of a third person who is also innocent of any offense to the killer. My prayers for all close to these people, and those close to this man whose last actions hurt so many. Violence does not make us stronger; it reveals fault lines we had before choosing violence to speak our minds. Our world is volatile and yes, we cannot control others but we must choose how we will act in its midst. Each person who took life away in incidents like this threw away their own dignity, strength and humanity before pulling a trigger. Their victims died the heroes.
3
If you must call the police to escort someone from the building after they are fired then that is just like picking up a ticking time bomb and putting it outside instead of finding a way to defuse it.
Being fired is a traumatic, humiliating and demeaning experience, especially if you feel you have been treated unfairly. Being taken away by police, while it may be entirely justified, would only add to that.
In this shooting and the one the other day in NY, the shooter had been stewing for years after being fired apparently unable to find new work or move on.
When someone is fired it should be routine practice to call in an objective third party with expert interpersonal and psychological skills to sit down with the parties so the person being fired at least has a chance to air their grievances and feel heard, the issues that led to the firing can be discussed in a fair-minded diplomatic way and the employee can learn something constructive from it. The positive in the employee should be acknowledged so that they do not feel hopeless. They should be connected with a center to help them develop their work skills and find their next job. Employers are not usually psychologists. But the act of being fired calls for one.
None of what I say should be taken as an expression of sympathy for these horrific murderers. I am only speaking of how to prevent them in the future.
Being fired is a traumatic, humiliating and demeaning experience, especially if you feel you have been treated unfairly. Being taken away by police, while it may be entirely justified, would only add to that.
In this shooting and the one the other day in NY, the shooter had been stewing for years after being fired apparently unable to find new work or move on.
When someone is fired it should be routine practice to call in an objective third party with expert interpersonal and psychological skills to sit down with the parties so the person being fired at least has a chance to air their grievances and feel heard, the issues that led to the firing can be discussed in a fair-minded diplomatic way and the employee can learn something constructive from it. The positive in the employee should be acknowledged so that they do not feel hopeless. They should be connected with a center to help them develop their work skills and find their next job. Employers are not usually psychologists. But the act of being fired calls for one.
None of what I say should be taken as an expression of sympathy for these horrific murderers. I am only speaking of how to prevent them in the future.
18
Pretty unlikely in this day and age, where we're all just 'resources' in fire at will states. Companies find us too expensive compared to machines, Mexicans or H1Bs from India.
5
excellent points.
2
This applies to employees who are not mentally unbalanced. What about those who are unbalanced?
3
Very sorry to hear this.. so sad....
Maybe we should realize, that it could be very dangerous to fire a person from their job.
A person's well being, psychological stability, sociologic stability, financial stability and personal identity, could come crashing down and trigger such violence.
Most likely the firing is related to the violence...... not a justification for it, but related.......
Maybe we should realize, that it could be very dangerous to fire a person from their job.
A person's well being, psychological stability, sociologic stability, financial stability and personal identity, could come crashing down and trigger such violence.
Most likely the firing is related to the violence...... not a justification for it, but related.......
You are blaming the victims for this senseless tragedy. This man with a track record of irrational behavior was fired for cause. Firing someone is not easy or cheap as can be seen from he first station that settled when they fired this guy.
I understand the desire to pin this on a politically correct scapegoat of gun ownership in the US but what about the social media culture that spawned this guy? What about his family or community that is responsible for protecting him? Greater blame lies elsewhere, not the poor TV station.
RIP to be victims and peace to the survivors.
I understand the desire to pin this on a politically correct scapegoat of gun ownership in the US but what about the social media culture that spawned this guy? What about his family or community that is responsible for protecting him? Greater blame lies elsewhere, not the poor TV station.
RIP to be victims and peace to the survivors.
7
This guy was very poor at his job. He shouldn't have been hired. He made co-workers uncomfortable. Seems to me, management did the sensible thing. When he tried to sue for "discrimination" it was thrown out as baseless.
He targeted this woman for death because she had complained about him.
Aside from never hiring him, what was management supposed to do? What should the woman reporter have done? Seriously?
He targeted this woman for death because she had complained about him.
Aside from never hiring him, what was management supposed to do? What should the woman reporter have done? Seriously?
7
It's all very gruesomely spectacular, but please NYT, resist covering this more than in the a cursory acknowledgement that it happened. The vile idiots who commit these acts are partially encouraged by the sensationalization they know is coming posthumously.
9
Yup! The media played right into his hands. He know we'd all be talking about this. That's why he brought a camera and started ranting on Twitter. Our media is a large part of the problem. And we encourage it by reading these stories over and over again. We're really all to blame.
6
Do away with the guns. simple.
Won't hapen overnight or even in my lifetime but we can collect the weapons and take them out of the hands of people. We like to say we are the greatest country in the world, and controlling the firearms is one of the ways to show we are a powerful country. It won't happen right away, and yes people will get killed as the guns are taken from the crooks more slowly than from the honest people, but don't we say "freedom isn't free"? To be able to walk around on the land around my place knowing I won't get shot by some person with a gun who should not have one is a freedom I do not have now and would like, or at least for the grandkids.
Won't hapen overnight or even in my lifetime but we can collect the weapons and take them out of the hands of people. We like to say we are the greatest country in the world, and controlling the firearms is one of the ways to show we are a powerful country. It won't happen right away, and yes people will get killed as the guns are taken from the crooks more slowly than from the honest people, but don't we say "freedom isn't free"? To be able to walk around on the land around my place knowing I won't get shot by some person with a gun who should not have one is a freedom I do not have now and would like, or at least for the grandkids.
15
I am ALL for gun control but this is treating a symptom NOT a problem. Gun control has increased while mass shootings and gun violence has increased. WHY? Clearly there is a larger problem in our society that is being ignored. That needs to be treated instead of swept under the assumption that these acts will be solved with stricter gun control.
"we can collect the weapons and take them out of the hands of people."
If you believe that you are as unrealistic as it comes. 100 million people own guns. Probably more than 70% will refuse to comply. We've already seen this in Connecticut where more than half the owners of AR15s have refused to register them. In addition most police will refuse to enforce the law. Those that would will quickly refuse to do so as the death toll to these enforcers rises. Using the military will probably be as efficient as expecting the police to effect the law. In the end we will have created a civil war. The noncompliant will swarm over the enforcers like ants on a beetle.
If this was a possibility it would have been done long ago. The number of owners is far larger today and stockpiling of ammunition is the norm. They're expecting it and some can't wait for it to happen.
If you believe that you are as unrealistic as it comes. 100 million people own guns. Probably more than 70% will refuse to comply. We've already seen this in Connecticut where more than half the owners of AR15s have refused to register them. In addition most police will refuse to enforce the law. Those that would will quickly refuse to do so as the death toll to these enforcers rises. Using the military will probably be as efficient as expecting the police to effect the law. In the end we will have created a civil war. The noncompliant will swarm over the enforcers like ants on a beetle.
If this was a possibility it would have been done long ago. The number of owners is far larger today and stockpiling of ammunition is the norm. They're expecting it and some can't wait for it to happen.
Even `Network's' Howard Beale must be wondering how bad it can get. Welcome to America.
2
Let' be honest about this,there is no incentive whatsoever in the U.S to seriously change the gun laws.
If children massacred at school or churchmen and women slain in the house of god don't have an impact,then what possible change could come about from this latest outrage?
I wonder how many American's ever take time to listen to the comments from people from other countries on this subject? The (civilized) world is genuinely shocked at these incidents and completely at a loss to wonder as to why after all the sentiments,it will be business as usual in a day or so?
Why do your leaders just go through the motions of mouthing shock and anger and sympathy only for nothing concrete do be done??
Is ANYONE going to make a start on this EVER?
If children massacred at school or churchmen and women slain in the house of god don't have an impact,then what possible change could come about from this latest outrage?
I wonder how many American's ever take time to listen to the comments from people from other countries on this subject? The (civilized) world is genuinely shocked at these incidents and completely at a loss to wonder as to why after all the sentiments,it will be business as usual in a day or so?
Why do your leaders just go through the motions of mouthing shock and anger and sympathy only for nothing concrete do be done??
Is ANYONE going to make a start on this EVER?
21
No. Politicians are afraid of losing votes. The president has been damned to hell by those who oppose gun control.
6
Three more gunshot deaths. I'm aware of no NRA ceiling.
12
It's obvious that the man was mentally deranged. Everyone is in favor of keeping guns out of the hands of the mentally deranged. No sane person believes that the proper way to that end is to take guns away from everyone.
The question is, how do you propose to identify the mentally deranged, so as to keep guns away from them?
The question is, how do you propose to identify the mentally deranged, so as to keep guns away from them?
2
NRA didn't kill anyone.
It's obvious that something has changed in our society. Even in my small state we're seeing a rise in incidents of violence such as shootings and road rage. Years ago this was an uncommon occurrence. Todays it's becoming the new normal. Whatever's going on here won't be "solved" by passing stricter gun laws, any more than stricter drug law have reduced drug use. Guns are a symptom of this dysfunction, not the reason for it. Perhaps some areas to consider are the depersonalization of society, the breakdown in communities and the over reliance of our judicial system to resolve conflicts. The problem is not guns, or drugs, they are (again) symptoms. The problem is....US.
13
No. The problem is handguns.
He didn't show up with rocks to throw; he brought a weapon designed to kill.
He didn't show up with rocks to throw; he brought a weapon designed to kill.
4
@ Steve,
WoW I just wrote almost the same thing while harping on my hobby horse reagan. I only looked at the comments after posting it. Maybe there is hope.
WoW I just wrote almost the same thing while harping on my hobby horse reagan. I only looked at the comments after posting it. Maybe there is hope.
Probably should check your facts first! Gun "related" deaths hit a peak in the early '90's then saw what can only be termed a "radical decline" since then. They're down about 7.0 per 100,000 to 3.6 per 100K from the peak. Which considering the population has increased and the number guns in circulation has increased is surprising given that the media generally portrays the problem as essentially "out of control"
http://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2013/05/07/gun-homicide-rate-down-49-sinc...
http://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2013/05/07/gun-homicide-rate-down-49-sinc...
Please note carefully that nothing I will say excuses the actions of the killer in this or any other situation. I feel sorrow for the victims and their families. Yet at the same time there's another perspective that I feel is often ignored when these tragedies occur.
It is clear that in a fair number of these tragic situations the gunmen are upset about how they had been treated by employers, coworkers, teachers, other students, etc. It is well worth all of us contemplating the ways in which our work and school situations are quite a bit less than kind, understanding and accepting. Consider the recent article about the atmosphere at Amazon as an example though it is obvious that such problems are not remotely unique to Amazon.
Do you want to do what you can to help prevent future tragedies? Look for ways to treat people with more understanding, particularly those who do not quite fit in for one reason or another. Sometimes all someone needs is a good listener or two or three who can grasp some of what is being felt. Take the trouble to greet people when passing by. And employers and supervisors in particular can help by treating people which far more respect than current employment conventions dictate. If we all learn to treat others with more dignity and respect in many different ways we will contribute to solving this chronic tragic problem.
It is clear that in a fair number of these tragic situations the gunmen are upset about how they had been treated by employers, coworkers, teachers, other students, etc. It is well worth all of us contemplating the ways in which our work and school situations are quite a bit less than kind, understanding and accepting. Consider the recent article about the atmosphere at Amazon as an example though it is obvious that such problems are not remotely unique to Amazon.
Do you want to do what you can to help prevent future tragedies? Look for ways to treat people with more understanding, particularly those who do not quite fit in for one reason or another. Sometimes all someone needs is a good listener or two or three who can grasp some of what is being felt. Take the trouble to greet people when passing by. And employers and supervisors in particular can help by treating people which far more respect than current employment conventions dictate. If we all learn to treat others with more dignity and respect in many different ways we will contribute to solving this chronic tragic problem.
7
SERIOUSLY??????
There are plenty of people who feel mistreated, abused, ignored, etc at work. But we don't go around shooting people or engaging in acts of violence. I'm sure 200 years ago when there slaves and serfs and no middle class, the employment situation was SO much better. And feel free to compare us to the fabulous Nordic countries. Just keep in mind that the perpetrator of the largest mass shooting is Norwegian.
There are plenty of people who feel mistreated, abused, ignored, etc at work. But we don't go around shooting people or engaging in acts of violence. I'm sure 200 years ago when there slaves and serfs and no middle class, the employment situation was SO much better. And feel free to compare us to the fabulous Nordic countries. Just keep in mind that the perpetrator of the largest mass shooting is Norwegian.
2
Listen up America. Guns aren't going anywhere! There are over 300 million of them and unfortunately this country was and is still being built by them. I don't know what measures can be taken besides tightening the gun laws. We will still have deaths by guns as we will have death by drunken & careless drivers.
4
What do handguns build? Untimely deaths?
7
No other developed nation has private gun ownership. It's way beyond time to end this foolishness before we are no more.
13
Where are the supporters of POTUS when he discusses gun control? No where. Instead he is ridiculed and insulted. He is fighting a losing battle. We are professing to be tbe greatest nation on earth but many of us really don't believe it.
5
I agree with you Hollis! How many will be too many before we say "enough is enough" ?
2
Granted the percentage is not as high as the US but please take a look at this list (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Number_of_guns_per_capita_by_country ). In the top ten: USA (duh), Switzerland, Norway, and Sweden. This is based on private gun ownership too.
Do you consider Switzerland, Norway, and Sweden developed nations?
Do you consider Switzerland, Norway, and Sweden developed nations?
1
It's social media, it's mental health, it's easy access to guns, it's the gun culture.
And we're not going to do anything about any of it, but keep on shooting.
Very sad for the two people killed here, and very sad for our society.
And we're not going to do anything about any of it, but keep on shooting.
Very sad for the two people killed here, and very sad for our society.
6
Your right to bear arms is superseded by my right not to be shot in the head by a deranged co-worker.
30
Pretty much this.
It is absolutely sickening to watch the video of this atrocity. It was such an innocent interview conducted by two young and eager reporters, just trying to start the morning news report off with an optimistic foot forward. Then all of a sudden an entire news station is forever reshaped. I cannot imagine the shock and sickening sadness that was felt by every member of that newsroom as it slowly dawned on them they had witnessed their coworkers deaths on live television.
As a community journalist in Los Angeles, I feel deeply disturbed by this heinous and hollow act. Community reporters are especially vulnerable seeing as we are the first line of defense in the news world. We are out there every single day, either solo or with a cameraman/photographer, attending community meetings, collaborating with local government officials, speaking to residents and working our respective beats to deliver news to our communities. Although this crime affects more than those of us in the journalism field, it feels like a personal attack on reporters.
It is time to have genuine and strategic conversations on mental healthcare in our nation and if, as journalists, we should shine such bright news spotlights on such horrific acts.
As a community journalist in Los Angeles, I feel deeply disturbed by this heinous and hollow act. Community reporters are especially vulnerable seeing as we are the first line of defense in the news world. We are out there every single day, either solo or with a cameraman/photographer, attending community meetings, collaborating with local government officials, speaking to residents and working our respective beats to deliver news to our communities. Although this crime affects more than those of us in the journalism field, it feels like a personal attack on reporters.
It is time to have genuine and strategic conversations on mental healthcare in our nation and if, as journalists, we should shine such bright news spotlights on such horrific acts.
9
"I'm mad as H*ll and I am not going to take it anymore!"
This whole scenario was predicted in the movie Network 40 years ago. It was a fictional tragedy then about a newsman in the throws of a nervous breakdown who was used by his station for ratings, and allowed to breakdown, and eventually be killed, live on television to preserve ratings.
This real life tragedy, occurring 40 years later is about a journalist timing his killing to maximize publicity. It is a tragedy on many levels, the mental and emotional breakdown of an individual, the horrible and senseless deaths, and the escalating of violence for publicity and retweets and clicks
My deepest sympathies go to the victims and their loved ones.
This whole scenario was predicted in the movie Network 40 years ago. It was a fictional tragedy then about a newsman in the throws of a nervous breakdown who was used by his station for ratings, and allowed to breakdown, and eventually be killed, live on television to preserve ratings.
This real life tragedy, occurring 40 years later is about a journalist timing his killing to maximize publicity. It is a tragedy on many levels, the mental and emotional breakdown of an individual, the horrible and senseless deaths, and the escalating of violence for publicity and retweets and clicks
My deepest sympathies go to the victims and their loved ones.
10
It's worth noting that in over 90% percent of gun-related murders in this country, the victims knew their killers beforehand. While random shootings in schools and theaters get the press, they are big news because they are still uncommon -- albeit a lot more common in gun-crazy U.S.
But the point is, be aware of people around you who exhibit truly creepy signs of behavior, especially excessive paranoia.
But the point is, be aware of people around you who exhibit truly creepy signs of behavior, especially excessive paranoia.
6
This is a multi-faceted problem of which there is only one thing we can control: guns. There will always be people who are mentally ill and extremely angry at times, but act normally most of the time. All this talk of checking for mental illnesses before letting people buy guns is just poppycock. American culture has become so violent that one could say that society itself is mentally ill. The only solution is to restrict guns to those who really need it, like cops and soldiers. If we start outlawing guns now, maybe in 20 years we will be a culture able to express our anger in ways that are not violent. The NRA should be recognized for what it is - a criminal organization that society does not need. And, of course, the second amendment belongs in the dustbin of history.
21
Amen
1
"The only solution is to restrict guns to those who really need it, like cops and soldiers."
Perhaps the chickens of:
(1) daily violence directed against blacks (for starters) by lawbreaking American cops, and
(2) the relentless violence threatened if not provoked by American forces (and their hired guns) throughout the entire world
(3) unconsciously acknowledged at home
that now come home to roost.
Perhaps the chickens of:
(1) daily violence directed against blacks (for starters) by lawbreaking American cops, and
(2) the relentless violence threatened if not provoked by American forces (and their hired guns) throughout the entire world
(3) unconsciously acknowledged at home
that now come home to roost.
I'm tired of people wanting to do something about guns every time a mentally unbalanced person uses one. Its time to do something to keep guns out of the hands of people are not mentally balanced. Focus on that and support it, if you want to see these things stopped.
The USAF has a human reliably program that keeps mentally unbalanced people from access to nuclear weapons. Apply a version of it to society and these events will stop.
The USAF has a human reliably program that keeps mentally unbalanced people from access to nuclear weapons. Apply a version of it to society and these events will stop.
3
Clearly the guns are in these people's possessions, clearly you don't know who is "mentally unbalanced" as you say, and who is not. Clearly your system is not working and maybe you need to change it. Some would still argue for their right to use and own guns, even after every person in your country had been gunned down and there was two people left.
2
It is time to have a national discussion about men and their relationship with guns. Yes women can be be violent too. However mass shooting after mass shooting is committed by a man or men with guns. Why this is should be a larger part of our national discussion about gun culture and the availability of mental health treatment.
16
My wife and I noticed the lady driving just ahead of us in traffic this afternoon. Her NRA bumper sticker said: STAND AND FIGHT. We gave her wide berth.
16
Did you meet and talk with her? Was she violating any free speech laws? That comment speaks more about hypocrisy on your part than about her.
As a black person I have felt the boiling anger that comes in response to acts of racism. But I also know that there are ways to channel my energies in productive and peaceful ways. Being insanely angry to the point of losing all perspective is a sign that you have in fact lost yourself to the racism, that you now have begun to spread the hate that you are protesting. If one is already mentally unstable then you end up with the terrible tragedy of today.
Even if the shooter's experience of racism and homophobia was "all in his head" (and society being what it is, there was probably some truth to his claims) the point is he believed his anger was justified, and looking at race relations today, no one could have proven him wrong. So American "race relations" (a useless term coding for a much more complex set of negative institutional and personal relations) did have a role here, in terms of providing a fertile field for this man's murderous insanity.
Yet, white supremacists will no doubt use this incident as an example of "black" criminality and will celebrate police killings of all black men as righteous.
There is no question in my mind that no matter who they were or whatever they did or did not do, the female reporter and the camera man should be alive today--they didn't deserve this. Their families didn't deserves this.
This guy was crazy, but what does it mean that his insanity took the form of a murderous racial anger?
Even if the shooter's experience of racism and homophobia was "all in his head" (and society being what it is, there was probably some truth to his claims) the point is he believed his anger was justified, and looking at race relations today, no one could have proven him wrong. So American "race relations" (a useless term coding for a much more complex set of negative institutional and personal relations) did have a role here, in terms of providing a fertile field for this man's murderous insanity.
Yet, white supremacists will no doubt use this incident as an example of "black" criminality and will celebrate police killings of all black men as righteous.
There is no question in my mind that no matter who they were or whatever they did or did not do, the female reporter and the camera man should be alive today--they didn't deserve this. Their families didn't deserves this.
This guy was crazy, but what does it mean that his insanity took the form of a murderous racial anger?
171
Rose, I applaud you for addressing the issue many seem to want to side-step.
I am a white person who has experienced acts of racism, including being profiled (twice) and subjected to racist remarks. I've also endured religious bigotry.
Just as the man who shot up the church had a racial component to his insanity, so did this person. You sound like a reasonable person so I ask you...do you believe that the rhetoric around race is doing this country any good? We have black people incited to rage against white people, and white people incited to rage against black people. It's high time we had a real conversation about race in this country, but there are many things inhibiting that discussion, many rules that we have tacitly accepted.
I find it interesting that so many commenters here, I'm sure many of whom are white, have chosen to frame this incident as being primarily about guns and mental health. I think it's more convenient for everyone (of any skin color) if we ignore the fact that this crime had at least partially a racial motivation. That's why most people are pretending race was not a factor in this.
Our inability to really have a conversation around race in this country is dividing us and will continue to divide us as long as that state exists. Thank you again for addressing the elephant in the room here, even though it is not convenient in this case to do so.
I am a white person who has experienced acts of racism, including being profiled (twice) and subjected to racist remarks. I've also endured religious bigotry.
Just as the man who shot up the church had a racial component to his insanity, so did this person. You sound like a reasonable person so I ask you...do you believe that the rhetoric around race is doing this country any good? We have black people incited to rage against white people, and white people incited to rage against black people. It's high time we had a real conversation about race in this country, but there are many things inhibiting that discussion, many rules that we have tacitly accepted.
I find it interesting that so many commenters here, I'm sure many of whom are white, have chosen to frame this incident as being primarily about guns and mental health. I think it's more convenient for everyone (of any skin color) if we ignore the fact that this crime had at least partially a racial motivation. That's why most people are pretending race was not a factor in this.
Our inability to really have a conversation around race in this country is dividing us and will continue to divide us as long as that state exists. Thank you again for addressing the elephant in the room here, even though it is not convenient in this case to do so.
10
It means that if enough sane people continually point fingers at one another over race, some insane people will eventually point guns at each other over it.
It means that race was the subject of his paranoid delusions. No more. We do not say that religion is to blame when a mentally ill person says that God (or the Devil) commanded him to shoot. "Race relations" had no more to do with this individual's actions than religion has to do with the actions of a person who killed because God's voice instructed him to do so.
1
How many more senseless murders will it take for the legislators to pass common sense gun laws? What excuse on Earth can there be for not mandating background checks for purchases at gun shows? The vast majority of Americans are for it!
We truly have some of the worst politicians in the country's history. I am feeling so disgusted right now! God help us all.
We truly have some of the worst politicians in the country's history. I am feeling so disgusted right now! God help us all.
19
Horrifying, sad and all to common an occurrence.
5
What we've done until now, to mollify those clamoring for action, always in the wake of some gun-related tragedy, is just for show.
It's time to re-think this. Instead of passing more silly new laws that, in essence, say "this time we really, really, really mean it" we should require all gun owners, from manufacturers to dealers to final customers to carry firearm insurance and hold them STRICTLY LIABLE for ALL harm caused by their guns regardless of who uses them, if the use of the gun was through your negligence or you authorized the gun's use by an irresponsible individual, just like with cars.
On a Federal level we need to pass meaningful legislation that make all guns and ammo traceable. As with cars, guns should have Certificates of Title so we know who owns what gun at any given moment. And the ammo? When I buy eggs at Trader Joe's each egg is imprinted with a code. We can't do that with ammo?
Do this and people will safeguard their guns and transfer them legally. You're not fool enough to leave your car parked on the street with the windows open and the keys in it are you?
And nothing that I have suggested conflicts with that pesky Second Amendment.
It's time to re-think this. Instead of passing more silly new laws that, in essence, say "this time we really, really, really mean it" we should require all gun owners, from manufacturers to dealers to final customers to carry firearm insurance and hold them STRICTLY LIABLE for ALL harm caused by their guns regardless of who uses them, if the use of the gun was through your negligence or you authorized the gun's use by an irresponsible individual, just like with cars.
On a Federal level we need to pass meaningful legislation that make all guns and ammo traceable. As with cars, guns should have Certificates of Title so we know who owns what gun at any given moment. And the ammo? When I buy eggs at Trader Joe's each egg is imprinted with a code. We can't do that with ammo?
Do this and people will safeguard their guns and transfer them legally. You're not fool enough to leave your car parked on the street with the windows open and the keys in it are you?
And nothing that I have suggested conflicts with that pesky Second Amendment.
17
Nothing you've suggested would have prevented today's tragedy either.
Every year about 10K people die due to drunk drivers. Do you propose we hold the automotive companies liable for some drunk getting in his car and killing someone with it? Food Companies for producing food that causes obesity/heart disease?
Strict liability is nothing more than a code word for the "Lawyers Full Employment Act"
Guns are traceable they've had serial numbers for 90+ years! Ammo not so much... In this case neither was a factor in identifying the culprit and would not have prevented him from doing what he did
Mental Health in this country is a frankly a joke (as commented on by many readers here today)
Solutions to this problem will not be easy and they most certainly will not be cheap.
Having said all that I agree with you that we must start somewhere. Its the "where to begin" that is so problematic!
Every year about 10K people die due to drunk drivers. Do you propose we hold the automotive companies liable for some drunk getting in his car and killing someone with it? Food Companies for producing food that causes obesity/heart disease?
Strict liability is nothing more than a code word for the "Lawyers Full Employment Act"
Guns are traceable they've had serial numbers for 90+ years! Ammo not so much... In this case neither was a factor in identifying the culprit and would not have prevented him from doing what he did
Mental Health in this country is a frankly a joke (as commented on by many readers here today)
Solutions to this problem will not be easy and they most certainly will not be cheap.
Having said all that I agree with you that we must start somewhere. Its the "where to begin" that is so problematic!
This. A million times.
1
So, I used to be concerned about the gangs in my neighborhood - hotheads with deadly firearms who carelessly shoot in anger or for other reasons. Then, recently, we've had a rash of shootings on highways - "recreational shooters" aiming at random drivers on their way to or from work - I've added that to my list of things to worry about. Now, it seems I need to be concerned about walking to and from my car or stepping out for lunch.
Guns. It's 2015 and we live in the "wild west". This used to be a country we could be proud of. The greatest country in the world - but sadly - no more.
People need to vote. We need to protect ourselves by voting. The NRA rules our politicians right now, and that needs to stop.
Shame on us for having the lowest voter turn out since WW2 in that last midterm election. In some countries, people don't have the right to vote. And we take voting so lightly.
Guns. It's 2015 and we live in the "wild west". This used to be a country we could be proud of. The greatest country in the world - but sadly - no more.
People need to vote. We need to protect ourselves by voting. The NRA rules our politicians right now, and that needs to stop.
Shame on us for having the lowest voter turn out since WW2 in that last midterm election. In some countries, people don't have the right to vote. And we take voting so lightly.
19
I am a clinical social worker. And, by the way, a former print and TV journalist. I greatly respect, even admire, the many comments here that take us -- and it is "us" -- to task for not addressing the mental illness that increasingly manifests itself in gun violence in our society. Those writers are far more sophisticated and far more on point than those who believe it is our access to guns alone that have produced so much bloodshed. Certainly, guns are a virus in our society. And I have little respect for the National Rifle Association. But the NRA and these erudite posters are, in my mind, backing even the most single-minded opponent to gun ownership into a corner where they will have to flex their thinking and look at other factors contributing to U.S. violence. And, yes, mental illness is one of those factors. Its treatment is underfunded, the organizations that provide it are too often dysfunctional (which is made possible by society's marginalization of mental illness and those who provide it) and the overly-controlling and cheap insurance companies that direct healthcare in this country. Go on: criticize the lack of gun control in this country, and my voice will be with you. But in criticizing the lack of quality mental health care in this country, I wonder how many of your voices will be with mine and that of the other posters here who ask just why we are an increasingly depressed, angry and generally miserable society.
242
Let's suppose you have a meeting with a client who is depressed and angry. You know they own a gun because you asked them in the phone interview. (BTW, that is one of the stock questions that many psychologists ask.) Would you cancel the appointment?
1
Why would I cancel the appointment? Because someone is depressed and owns a gun? I must tell you that your question suggests you believe we need fear anyone who has depression, especially if they own a gun. Well, many of my clients, depressed clients included, own guns. Neither of those possessions -- a gun or depression -- means a person is to be considered dangerous. Yes, therapists -- most of us clinical social workers, by the way -- would ask if a person has access to weapons if they told us they had suicidal ideation. But this would be out of concern them. Yes, we ask about homicidal ideation, too. Cancel the appointment? No. My many years of experience treating depression tell me my clients are suffering, not homicidal.
1
And, VSR, if you follow the Couch column, you may also be stunned, as I am, at how many commenters and recommenders seem to despise mental health professionals. I am saddened at the number of commenters who claim or imply that most or all therapists are charlatans or scam artists or just do no good whatsoever. It is chilling to me in the face of such obvious despair and craziness in our society. So many people need help, obviously. It can be hard sometimes to find a therapist when one's mind is in a painful place, and people who argue against them in general can dissuade others from taking the chance and seeing one. And by the way, ACT therapy is one wonderful way to learn how to re-think anger and pain, and I speak as one helped by it, not as a therapist of any kind.
1
Gun control is what we need. The Second Amendment was about keeping militias armed. Either get Supreme Court justices appointed that support the original intent of the Second Amendment or repeal it. The scourge on our nation that is the National Rifle Association needs to be addressed. Now.
35
No problem with guns, it's people! NRA
1
You're absolutely right. It's totally obvious to me and any English major that "A well armed militia" modifies the rest of the sentence. I guess the Supreme Court doesn't know how to read anything but legal briefs.
6
You do realize what the militia was right? SMH
Many commenting here about yet another senseless tragedy seek to pinpoint a scapegoat responsible for the bloodbath in the United States caused by disturbed (in this case),or vicious, careless or stupid people with guns.
But the press and social media are not to blame. Free speech is a bedrock principle of our democracy. Nor is there more mental illness in this country than in other advanced nations. Nor, as some have suggested, is the lack of effective means for mediating personal and career issues the cause: people feel "dissed" and insulted all over the world, at work, at school, at home. Only in America do they take up readily available firearms to seek redress.
To place responsibility properly, start with Congress (dead to rapture and despair, tied to campaign contributors, they couldn't even act on gun insanity after Newtown) Blame SCOTUS, tied to gun rights appropriate to an 18th c rural society. Blame our equally spineless state and local legislators, playing to the lowest common denominator; blame the weapons and ammunitions industry, and blame the propaganda machine of the morally bankrupt NRA.
While the 2nd Amendment remains immutable holy writ -- as if handed to Moses on the Mount -- the conscienceless contenders for the GOP nomination address themselves to the effort of tearing down the 14th Amendment to demolish birthright citizenship in a nation built by immigrants; to keeping women in their place; and to destroying ObamaCare.
Shame on us.
But the press and social media are not to blame. Free speech is a bedrock principle of our democracy. Nor is there more mental illness in this country than in other advanced nations. Nor, as some have suggested, is the lack of effective means for mediating personal and career issues the cause: people feel "dissed" and insulted all over the world, at work, at school, at home. Only in America do they take up readily available firearms to seek redress.
To place responsibility properly, start with Congress (dead to rapture and despair, tied to campaign contributors, they couldn't even act on gun insanity after Newtown) Blame SCOTUS, tied to gun rights appropriate to an 18th c rural society. Blame our equally spineless state and local legislators, playing to the lowest common denominator; blame the weapons and ammunitions industry, and blame the propaganda machine of the morally bankrupt NRA.
While the 2nd Amendment remains immutable holy writ -- as if handed to Moses on the Mount -- the conscienceless contenders for the GOP nomination address themselves to the effort of tearing down the 14th Amendment to demolish birthright citizenship in a nation built by immigrants; to keeping women in their place; and to destroying ObamaCare.
Shame on us.
21
In the meantime, the gun homicide rate continues to fall year after year
http://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2013/05/07/gun-homicide-rate-down-49-sinc...
http://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2013/05/07/gun-homicide-rate-down-49-sinc...
2
Deaths from guns now surpass deaths from automobiles in seven states. Its not just homicides that are a problem.Its children shooting children and teenagers committing suicide with the family gun etc, etc. You should learn to hate guns. How much tragedy and loss will it take before you realize that guns are not the answer to anything in a civil society. Guns should be despised not loved.
2
The saddest part of the reader comments is how several posters imply that the killer probably had valid racial grievances and that somehow justifies his trying to kill 3 people who were not even the ones he had complaine about. All innocent lives matter.
35
Those people who try to justify these murders with the racism card are people our FBI should be monitoring. There are a lot of them on Facebook comment threads. I see many of the BLM protesters calling this guy a "hero" for murdering these innocent people. That's just sick.
12
none of the comments suggest that the shooting was justified
Then you did not read them all, which is understandable, given how many there were, but should cause you not to comment as if you did.
We are experiencing a lot of incidents similar to this one of disgruntled and dangerous employees that are dismissed. This is the result of a lack of respect for workers that are displaced for the sake of profits. It is also the result of a trend that does not value merit. And if workers are dismissed based on inadequate performance it should be done with empathy. Moreover, this is the result of a society that demands unrealistic expectations and success at any cost. Lack of a supportive family structure that could support the unemployed during hard times is missing as well in our society. When an individual is deprived of their dignity, they either commit suicide or engage in risky behavior.
5
Thanks for this comment. Finally, somebody "gets it". People are treated as expendable objects in our society. Violence like this is one of the consequences of that anti-social ideology and the behavior it produces. You're keeping it real. Good for you.
3
This man deprived himself of his own dignity. If you bothered to read his job history, there were numerous attempts to help him modify his behavior and address his concerns before he was fired. The police were only called when he refused to leave the workplace and the police investigated his claims and found nothing proving his complaints to be valid. This man blamed everyone else for his self made problems.
2
This is what society has done to our people. Mr. Williams was probably manipulated and taken advantage of until the point of his termination. Its crazy how you feel so bad for the victims, but did you feel the same emotions when innocent young black individuals died from the hands of a police officer? No, you all pushed past the situation and went on about your day. You expect me to feel sorry for those who lost their lives but when the tables are turn the feelings are not mutual.
3
That is simply not true, cheyneyTM.
19
I definitely believe that violent acts like these are an outward expression of inner suffering. I think we all need to make enough room in our hearts to forgive victims on all sides of tragedies like these. Your frustration is understandable, and you have every right to reserve sympathy. But I hope people can move past our divisions, because we can only heal together.
2
So wait, this isn't a hate crime? Hate only flows in one direction? Speculation is sufficient to justify murder ("was probably manipulated")? Your moral philosophy, and usage of "you" in your post, betrays your bigotry.
15
The CDC has it right. Gun violence in this country is akin to a disease, and it is well beyond epidemic proportions. How many more have to die before our politicians have the decency and fortitude to take action. We're well beyond name and background checks. This has to stop.
21
I hate to sound crude or callous about this but every time we've got people who kill other people and then end up shooting themselves, they could've saved everybody a tremendous amount of heart ache by just shooting themselves first and leaving everyone else alone. My fear is that now this is been done, it will start being done more often because it gives the shooter greater exposure which I guess is what he wanted. And that's exactly what he got. It's pointless to even discuss the gun problem, because nobody is going to actually do anything about it. It's a situation that has gotten completely out of hand. Why file grievances when you can just go out and solve all of your problems with a gun? Except his problems were not solved and now people are dead whose lives were just getting started. Even the Wild West was never like this.
19
I've often said exactly that - Why don't they just shoot themselves?
6
This is just the tip of the iceberg. Here are two other articles that were in today's Guardian:
http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/aug/25/third-grade-student-shoot...
http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/aug/26/14-year-old-boy-holds-cla...
Time for synergized gun control groups and the vast majority of us who want to see serious gun control in America to join forces and hire the socially conscious people who will make it so.
http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/aug/25/third-grade-student-shoot...
http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/aug/26/14-year-old-boy-holds-cla...
Time for synergized gun control groups and the vast majority of us who want to see serious gun control in America to join forces and hire the socially conscious people who will make it so.
14
Sorry, I just don't buy this NRA argument that the Second Amendment protects our right to bear arms. Surely Congress in 1789 didn't foresee the lethal firepower of a Glock in the hands of a homicidal maniac. Instead they envisioned a state militia using musket rifles for the common defense from Indian raids and military invasions, as well as for hunting.
42
sure - but here's the thing, the anti-gun people are also largely the people whining about Citizens United... you know- the case that said the first amendment means what it says... {government can't fine or jail people for spending money to make a political documentary... "shall not abridge"}
So my question is - are we supposed to respect a worldview that sleectively recognizes civil rights and the meaning of words?
So my question is - are we supposed to respect a worldview that sleectively recognizes civil rights and the meaning of words?
1
I don't believe they foresaw a nation capable of subjugating and destroying the entire world but here we are. Armed with weapons they never could have conceived. They did see a possibility of government large enough to subjugate its own citizens though and they gave them the possibility of protecting themselves from it. The Bill Of Rights was created at the request of the states that realized that he entity they were forming for their mutual protection might one day become their master. Would they recognize these 10 amendments as we have them today? Would they see the people armed with weapons inferior to those owned by the government as obedient to their constitution?
My deepest sympathies to the families of the victims. 27 years ago I was in their shoes, attempting to explain to a 12 year old why their classmate was gunned down. Yes we have been gunning down children and the young adults for almost 3 decades. During the late 1980s if you were impacted by gun violence and young you were very different and you could hope that the reasonable actions would be taken to limit gun ownership and ban assault weapons. Flash forward to 2015 and you understand that now you are just part of millions of Americans young and old who belong to a very common club in America, those who grieve because their lives have been changed by gun violence. Every incident brings the same plea... can someone, anyone limit the access to guns with reasonable legislation? The answer is no and in your grief you join the millions of us who have lost someone to gun violence.
11
I have a sincere few questions for those people who would like to ban all guns and/or call for more gun laws as a mean to stop the violence:
1] Do you actually think registered guns and licensed gun owners are responsible for more than a small fraction of the crimes and if so - why?
2] Chicago has strict gun laws and absolutely breath-taking gun violence - are Chicago gang members unusual in not heeding gun laws and do you care about the plight of registered owners who turn in their guns in that city?
3] Why is it the people who are so against the idea of citizens owning guns at all have no problem at all with guns in the hands of people who work for the government - is the idea that police and military can be trusted to never kill innocent people?
Thanks.
1] Do you actually think registered guns and licensed gun owners are responsible for more than a small fraction of the crimes and if so - why?
2] Chicago has strict gun laws and absolutely breath-taking gun violence - are Chicago gang members unusual in not heeding gun laws and do you care about the plight of registered owners who turn in their guns in that city?
3] Why is it the people who are so against the idea of citizens owning guns at all have no problem at all with guns in the hands of people who work for the government - is the idea that police and military can be trusted to never kill innocent people?
Thanks.
6
This is my question to you: why is it that these gun tragedies only happen in the USA?
8
1. No. And I think it is important to distinguish between hunting rifles and other guns and perhaps to mandate that hunting rifles, and perhaps other guns, be stored in a regulated armory. I grew up around farmhouses where squirrel guns were under lock and guy. If done carefully that could accommodate a well regulated militia that was not a government entity.
2. Chicago - and Illinois - do not have even the extent of border control that the US has. We have the same problem in NY.
3. Many of us also think the police are over-armed.
2. Chicago - and Illinois - do not have even the extent of border control that the US has. We have the same problem in NY.
3. Many of us also think the police are over-armed.
5
@SupportBDS - In response to your questions:
(i) Yes, more than half of last year's 43,000 gun deaths (homicide, suicide, and accident) were with legally purchased handguns. Additionally, guns legally purchased in permissive jurisdictions become illegal when further sold in more restrictive jurisdictions.
(ii) No, gang members taking advantage of the ubiquity of guns (legal and illegal) in our country are not unusual. No, I am not concerned about the plight of gun owners.
(iii) We are concerned with guns in the hands of all people, including trigger-happy police and military.
(i) Yes, more than half of last year's 43,000 gun deaths (homicide, suicide, and accident) were with legally purchased handguns. Additionally, guns legally purchased in permissive jurisdictions become illegal when further sold in more restrictive jurisdictions.
(ii) No, gang members taking advantage of the ubiquity of guns (legal and illegal) in our country are not unusual. No, I am not concerned about the plight of gun owners.
(iii) We are concerned with guns in the hands of all people, including trigger-happy police and military.
4
Doesn't the Constitution guarantee our right to freedom of assembly without being massacred? Why does the Second Amendment always get to trump the First?
27
Perhaps, DoNotResuscitate, those who find the 1st Amendment inviolable, sometimes find the 2nd Amendment useless. While those who might find the 2nd Amendment inviolable, sometimes find the 1st Amendment to be less than useful.
The truth is what history teaches anyone who will learn, you can't have one without the other.
The truth is what history teaches anyone who will learn, you can't have one without the other.
2
As much as I appreciate your try, I have to point out that the first and second amendments both regulate the actions of government not private citizens, so the segue doesn't work.
1
Tim McCoy is quite right, without the 2nd amendment, the 1st amendment can and will be taken away at any time. Nations whose leaders confiscated most of the guns from civilians are nearly always vicious dictatorships who go on to commit genocide against their unarmed populations. We're not near that by any means, but let's not go that way.
People who defend free access to guns as a hobby need to find better hobbies! There are simply way too many guns in this country and it's too easy to get them. Firing a gun should be akin to flying a helicopter—fine for the licensed few who can do so responsibly, but laughably absurd to be trusted to any person on the street.
24
Second Amendment rights are not a hobby, and certainly not a license just for the rich.
3
What if the guns were to be mandated to be kept in designated gun clubs? This would be problematic in very rural areas, but elsewhere it might prevent impulsive shootings. It might not have prevented what happened in Virginia today, but if the Sandy Hook shooter could not have accessed weapons without his mother's presence?
1
Go to some of the online newspapers that serve the midsection of the country (Kansas City, Des Moines, etc.) and see how much coverage these killings receive and also look at some of the comments of their readers. Then you'll understand why things won't change anytime soon.
14
So, you're saying Midwestern newspapers and their readers caused this murder on the East Coast? Interesting theory. I suppose that school shooting down the road from you was also those evil Midwesterners' fault too?
5
I'm saying gun laws won't change because the prevailing attitude in the center of the country is pro-gun; and until the laws change, then these types of killings will continue.
4
@pintoks --
I think you misunderstood Barry's comment. Too much righteous indignation?
I'm betting you didn't follow Joe Nocera's Gun Report here in the Times (it ran for about a year and a half after Newtown, when people still hoped our Congress would grow a spine on the topic of gun control).
It was most valuable in that it did a daily computer search, nationally, of reported incidents of gun violence --- not just the headlines that appear in national news when something like today's tragedy, or last week's shooting in the Federal Building on Varick Street in NYC.
The takeaway? Gun homicide is ubiquitous and quotidian in the USA. Not just disgruntled people who have lost their jobs, and not just out of control cops: it's men killing wives and girlfriends, and vice versa; it's curious toddlers getting hold of Stupid Dad's unlocked shotgun and blowing away the baby in the crib; it's drunk guys shooting themselves in the foot; it's people with emotional or mental issues getting weapons at Walmart. It's anything you can think of that can happen -- and it does -- when it's easier to buy an automatic rifle than it is to get a sleeping pill or cough medicine.
I think you misunderstood Barry's comment. Too much righteous indignation?
I'm betting you didn't follow Joe Nocera's Gun Report here in the Times (it ran for about a year and a half after Newtown, when people still hoped our Congress would grow a spine on the topic of gun control).
It was most valuable in that it did a daily computer search, nationally, of reported incidents of gun violence --- not just the headlines that appear in national news when something like today's tragedy, or last week's shooting in the Federal Building on Varick Street in NYC.
The takeaway? Gun homicide is ubiquitous and quotidian in the USA. Not just disgruntled people who have lost their jobs, and not just out of control cops: it's men killing wives and girlfriends, and vice versa; it's curious toddlers getting hold of Stupid Dad's unlocked shotgun and blowing away the baby in the crib; it's drunk guys shooting themselves in the foot; it's people with emotional or mental issues getting weapons at Walmart. It's anything you can think of that can happen -- and it does -- when it's easier to buy an automatic rifle than it is to get a sleeping pill or cough medicine.
6
So far it appears this tragedy happened because of weak gun regulation, the NRA, individual racism, institutional racism, mental health, social media, and more. I am amazed that the commenters here know so much about the lives of these individuals and this case that they can draw such conclusions. Would you please not hold your banner over the lives of individuals that have been dead for only hours? The work needed to identify and combat the personal and social ills leading to this violence is best done in the routine of our days, not in the sporadic "advocacy" of comment boxes that only disrespect the lives lost.
5
This very sad news proves once again: Bullet-Riddled bodies do not lie. GUNS KILL. Get them off the streets of America. WE must demand that every gun in America be registered on a national database, licensed and fully insured for liability.
34
Let's see how this particular tragedy will be portrayed on the TV news. Their motto for decades has been if it bleeds, it leads. Now that one of their own was killed on live TV, will they go after the politicians for not enacting sensible gun control laws? I think the subject of gun control may be discussed on the news for 1 day and then forgotten as usual. Do your job journalists and hold these politicians responsible for the deaths of 2 of your own.
16
Another man, another gun, more dead people. What is the matter with the men in America that they choose to solve their problems by using guns to kill people?
31
In the absence of specific information, most comments are citing guns and mental health as causes and they reject the racial issues raised by Williams. Absent evidence, most readers point to the availability of guns, assume Mr. Williams was mentally ill and assume that his claims of racism were either unsupported or peripheral. Of course, Mr. Williams may have reported stories that would well justify his possession of a gun. There may be no prior indication of mental health problems and this incident may have involved revenge-related motivation rather than mental illness. And Williams's racial claims could be well supported. Myself, I am not in the practice of explaining complicated events by formula thinking. The commenters may well be right. But they may be wrong, too. Lots of incidents follow the model. But some don't. And if we make up our minds too soon, we are likely to reject facts that run counter to our preconceived notions.
3
he was fired from more than one job and had anger issues but yes lets do a song and dance routine for michjas can hold on to his precious weapons .
9
So another rage that grips me over this, besides how pointless and psychotic it is, is how we focus on this one small event (two deaths in America is a small event, sorry), and it blocks out all other news for a few days, and nothing ever gets done about the causes. Every rational person should recognize the cause is twofold: not enough mental health care and identifying the threats, and too much gun availability. NOTHING ever gets done about either issue after every single one of these shootings.
And this one is only major because it was televised. At least twenty other people died this week by gun, but they were mainly poor and black, and because they weren't shot by cops we ignore them. Right? What were their names, anyone? Yeah we ignore them.
And then of course there are the horrible problems in America of poverty, lack of education, Trump, military overspending, heart disease, and so on, that totally dwarf all gun deaths, 2/3 of which are suicides anyway. If we don't work on mental health treatment, then clearly we don't care enough to stop suicides, so stop whining about them.
So there will be hundreds of useless comments and bickering here and this will get ignored, but I just wanted to rant for a bit about how pointless all the coverage is when nothing will be done to prevent next week's shooting.
And this one is only major because it was televised. At least twenty other people died this week by gun, but they were mainly poor and black, and because they weren't shot by cops we ignore them. Right? What were their names, anyone? Yeah we ignore them.
And then of course there are the horrible problems in America of poverty, lack of education, Trump, military overspending, heart disease, and so on, that totally dwarf all gun deaths, 2/3 of which are suicides anyway. If we don't work on mental health treatment, then clearly we don't care enough to stop suicides, so stop whining about them.
So there will be hundreds of useless comments and bickering here and this will get ignored, but I just wanted to rant for a bit about how pointless all the coverage is when nothing will be done to prevent next week's shooting.
12
Yes concern about the extraordinary number of people killed by guns in the USA is simply "whining."
4
This was breaking news. Then it was a front page, on line story. It will fade to the US section by nightfall and be gone completely by next week from the national news. For the families and friends of Parker and Ward, it is a permanent scar they will wear the rest of their lives but the rest of us are so accustomed to this type of news that we barely register it.
And I will once again say on here: This country has gone nuts over guns.
And I will once again say on here: This country has gone nuts over guns.
31
Not guns--race. 50 years after the fact. Lord!
There are no "gun rights activists". There are only "murder weapon fetishists." More guns=more violence. George Orwell would not be shocked to hear people say "more murder weapons = less murder." It's why the "murder weapon fetishists" always say that it's "too soon to talk about murder weapons immediately after there's been a mass murder using these murder weapons." They don't want to face the horrific truth about murder weapons. Guns (unlike alcohol and autos which the fetishists like to bring up) do one thing and one thing only: they murder with ripped skin, crunching bone, destroyed organs and shooting blood. That's it. They will not protect you from political change. If guns are the answer then governments will make more guns for their insidious plots to take over. This country is not heading toward totalitarianism. There is no empirical evidence supporting that fear. Look at the coming election and tell me which candidates have it in them to destroy Democracy? Do I want to take your guns away? You bet I do. Those who love and cherish their murder weapons? It seems to me that these mass killings are the anarchists' dream come true. That revolutions are MORE likely in a society armed to the teeth.
13
There are no "gun rights activists". There are only "murder weapon fetishists." More guns=more violence. George Orwell would not be shocked to hear people say "more murder weapons = less murder."
===================
Unfortunately, you are faced with the fact that more guns = less violence is empirically true:
Disarming Realities: As Gun Sales Soar, Gun Crimes Plummet
http://www.forbes.com/sites/larrybell/2013/05/14/disarming-realities-as-...
Gun Homicide Rate Down 49% Since 1993 Peak; Public Unaware
http://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2013/05/07/gun-homicide-rate-down-49-sinc...
===================
Unfortunately, you are faced with the fact that more guns = less violence is empirically true:
Disarming Realities: As Gun Sales Soar, Gun Crimes Plummet
http://www.forbes.com/sites/larrybell/2013/05/14/disarming-realities-as-...
Gun Homicide Rate Down 49% Since 1993 Peak; Public Unaware
http://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2013/05/07/gun-homicide-rate-down-49-sinc...
1
That is nonsense. The murder rate has simply dropped along with all crime during the past ten years. Gun deaths, however, continue to climb. Homicide is just part of the death by guns. Children shooting children, teenagers committing suicide, accidental shooting etc, etc., will continue to rise as more and more guns saturate our country. Gun deaths now surpass automobile deaths in seven states.
1
What a disgusting act of cowardice was thus enabled by the possession of a gun by a deranged individual. It is a tragedy to see this beautiful young woman taken away as well as her young cameraman colleague. I am glad Ms. Gardner will survive.
11
Senseless is hardly the word I'm trying to find here. Two innocent people cut down by a disgruntled employee. So now since the idiot that committed this tragedy is determined to be black, will be just one more thing attributed to race and the injustice that can conjure up.
6
There are two issues common to all these gun murders:
1. Guns
2. Men
Most of these mass killers are men. Mental health issues, anger issues, hate issues, all of the above perhaps – but they are men. Why do men kill like this is a question that needs to be addressed.
And then we have the guns. Apparently nothing will move us, as a nation, to recognize the absurdity of the 2nd amendment in modern times. And none of these killings will shame us, or our politicians, into doing anything about it. Even Sandy Hook, where 20 five year old children were slaughtered, did not result in any significant change.
So we peons comment online. Our politicians "tweet" about how their "prayers" are going out to the families and nothing changes. The NRA, and the gun manufacturers win. Again. And again. And again.
1. Guns
2. Men
Most of these mass killers are men. Mental health issues, anger issues, hate issues, all of the above perhaps – but they are men. Why do men kill like this is a question that needs to be addressed.
And then we have the guns. Apparently nothing will move us, as a nation, to recognize the absurdity of the 2nd amendment in modern times. And none of these killings will shame us, or our politicians, into doing anything about it. Even Sandy Hook, where 20 five year old children were slaughtered, did not result in any significant change.
So we peons comment online. Our politicians "tweet" about how their "prayers" are going out to the families and nothing changes. The NRA, and the gun manufacturers win. Again. And again. And again.
47
Sexism has no place here.
2
Sexism? It is a FACT: men are responsible for virtually all of these gun killings.
Men with "anger issues" (as it is quaintly phrased)
Men with mental health issues.
Men with grudges or jealousies.
We need to look at what is it with men that they reach for a gun to deal with their issues.
Men with "anger issues" (as it is quaintly phrased)
Men with mental health issues.
Men with grudges or jealousies.
We need to look at what is it with men that they reach for a gun to deal with their issues.
5
It isn't sexism - it's a fact. In one shooting after another in this country it's a man with a gun. Dispute that.
5
Please, please, can our government and its people be spurred by these and so many other unbelievably horrific events we have endured to clamp down on the rules on gun ownership? When it comes to owning guns, it is an embarrassment to be an American, as worldwide statistics show (88 guns owned for every 100 American adults...!). Should the gun lobby really be having the last word?
11
They will have the last word because they will have killed every American by then and be the only ones left.
So, as a nation, we are told we need to accept that the Second Amendment means unfettered access to firearms, yet at the same time we are too sensitive to see the affects of gun violence. Are we adults who can handle the responsibilities of gun proliferation, or are we children who need to be coddled?
13
At this point, we have to draw the sad conclusion that our government and law enforcement have capitulated in the face of this type of violence (which is different from saying that they *could* be doing much more than they are to stem the violence).
Unfortunately, they seem to have simply conceded defeat.
Unfortunately, they seem to have simply conceded defeat.
7
Guns is only one piece of this uniquely American problem. The other piece is a society that prizes and celebrates success above all else. Win at all costs. Succeed at all costs. Get recognition. Get money. Get status.
In a society such as this there will always be those who feel like failures, who feel mistreated and disrespected. People who didn't get that promotion, didn't get the girl, didn't get on that reality show, didn't get that car. Combine that with some mental instability and easy access to guns and you've got these incidents happening literally every week in America. Not in Switzerland or Canada or Norway to New Zealand or China or Japan or Burma. in America.
In a society such as this there will always be those who feel like failures, who feel mistreated and disrespected. People who didn't get that promotion, didn't get the girl, didn't get on that reality show, didn't get that car. Combine that with some mental instability and easy access to guns and you've got these incidents happening literally every week in America. Not in Switzerland or Canada or Norway to New Zealand or China or Japan or Burma. in America.
11
I have thought, and I will continue to think, that a contributing factor to some of the societal issues that posters have raised are related to the end of the mandatory draft.
American men and women who are exposed to the training and discipline and team building required in our armed forces have a better understanding of the realities of both violence and firearms, as well as a more mature attitude toward violence in general. They also acquire some problem-solving skills that may help them think before employing this kind of violence.
This may be judged as "pop psychology" by some, and naturally there is no definitive research on the postulate. I did, however, discover that when the dress code was relaxed at my former corporation, people began behaving in a less respectful manner to each other. Cultures, corporate or otherwise, influence the behavior of their citizens. Possibly requiring military service again for our new generations would help address some of the societal issues that we face today. Then again, maybe not.
American men and women who are exposed to the training and discipline and team building required in our armed forces have a better understanding of the realities of both violence and firearms, as well as a more mature attitude toward violence in general. They also acquire some problem-solving skills that may help them think before employing this kind of violence.
This may be judged as "pop psychology" by some, and naturally there is no definitive research on the postulate. I did, however, discover that when the dress code was relaxed at my former corporation, people began behaving in a less respectful manner to each other. Cultures, corporate or otherwise, influence the behavior of their citizens. Possibly requiring military service again for our new generations would help address some of the societal issues that we face today. Then again, maybe not.
2
"American men and women who are exposed to the training and discipline and team building required in our armed forces have a better understanding of the realities of both violence and firearms, as well as a more mature attitude toward violence in general."
That might be worth considering were it not for the fact that many of the mass shooters over the past few years have been committed by members of the military.
That might be worth considering were it not for the fact that many of the mass shooters over the past few years have been committed by members of the military.
1
Citations please.
That might be worth considering were it not for the fact that many of the mass shooters over the past few years have been committed by members of the military.
==============
Other than the two Ft. Hood shootings who would "many" be?
==============
Other than the two Ft. Hood shootings who would "many" be?
1
With traditional and social media, it's like the entire society has turned into a teenage audience goading the seemingly aggrieved to take violent actions. Everything is about confrontation, doubling down, taking umbrage, and fighting back. De-escalation or conflict reduction of any sort is ridiculed as cowardice.
13
America, a country where anyone who loses control of his temper or mental faculties has easy access to guns and ammo. And no better place than Virginia to a hold of them; remember the Virginia Tech rampage? Will America ever come its senses in regard to guns? Apparently not.
11
Increased gun regulation is moot with the development of new kits that allow you to build your own gun at home. People will still acquire guns, legally or otherwise if our country still endorses any form of ownership.
I support the repeal of the second amendment and the prohibition of all firearms. But maybe a more realistic goal is the PROHIBITION OF ALL HANDGUNS or all guns except non-automatic rifles related to hunting. Would that be agreeable?
Someone explain what value guns have in our society? Hunting? The laughable idea that we can shoot down a tyrannical government? Are you going to shoot through our obese military?
Why do we continue to allow such individuals to carry out violent acts? Why do we permit police to shoot down anyone because they think they might have a gun?
How about we put the victims of guns above the worship of guns?
I support the repeal of the second amendment and the prohibition of all firearms. But maybe a more realistic goal is the PROHIBITION OF ALL HANDGUNS or all guns except non-automatic rifles related to hunting. Would that be agreeable?
Someone explain what value guns have in our society? Hunting? The laughable idea that we can shoot down a tyrannical government? Are you going to shoot through our obese military?
Why do we continue to allow such individuals to carry out violent acts? Why do we permit police to shoot down anyone because they think they might have a gun?
How about we put the victims of guns above the worship of guns?
7
Maybe more information will come out and I will be wrong about this, but I fail at this point to see how anything short of regulations very drastically restricting private ownership of hand guns would have prevented this. Without retrospect the shooter presented either a kook or a calculating attempted abuser of equal opportunity laws. Neither of those characterizations would have prevented him from buying a handgun in many US states. We should be looking to the mid-1990s Australian model.
6
We can't secure our borders, how are we going to stop guns coming in? I don't own a gun, don't think I ever will, but I fail to see how clamping down on guns will stop the proliferation. Our borders are porous. Look at how easily drugs come in, so much so, the prices have dropped. If we could secure our borders, like Australia does, then it would make sense. Right now, it's not going to work.
“The Twitter account of Mr. Williams, who is black, referred to a complaint he had filed against the station with the federal Equal Employment Opportunity Commission. He claimed to have been subjected to racist comments in the workplace.
Jeffrey A. Marks, president and general manager of the station, confirmed that the complaint had been filed, but said it was dismissed as baseless. Of the racist comments, ‘none of them could be corroborated by anyone,’ he said. ‘We think they were fabricated.”
The US is huge and fractured, with a surfeit of guns, but a true dearth of culturally sanctioned and readily available means for conflict resolution.
Emotionally fragile and impulsive individuals are adrift when confronted with grievances. Whether we deem their complaints to be valid, or not, they still hurt; and need a prosocial release from their anger and perceived threats to respect and worthiness. That is what a lot of this is about, from the kid who kills on the street because he has been “dissed,” to the person who beats his/her spouse, to some mass murderers. People want to be heard, valued and respected.
I don’t know the answer, but unless something is done on a massive scale, we will continue to bear witness to the sad and senseless loss of lives.
Jeffrey A. Marks, president and general manager of the station, confirmed that the complaint had been filed, but said it was dismissed as baseless. Of the racist comments, ‘none of them could be corroborated by anyone,’ he said. ‘We think they were fabricated.”
The US is huge and fractured, with a surfeit of guns, but a true dearth of culturally sanctioned and readily available means for conflict resolution.
Emotionally fragile and impulsive individuals are adrift when confronted with grievances. Whether we deem their complaints to be valid, or not, they still hurt; and need a prosocial release from their anger and perceived threats to respect and worthiness. That is what a lot of this is about, from the kid who kills on the street because he has been “dissed,” to the person who beats his/her spouse, to some mass murderers. People want to be heard, valued and respected.
I don’t know the answer, but unless something is done on a massive scale, we will continue to bear witness to the sad and senseless loss of lives.
124
Perhaps instead of a president we should be selecting a national psychiatrist or therapist.
4
This may sound callous (especially from someone in the education business), but maybe it's time to stop telling every child "you can be whatever you want to be when you grow up." Sure, that's true to some degree, but maybe before we tell everyone they can be a star we should work harder to help them harden their shell and learn some coping skills. Yes, you can be whatever you want, just as soon as learn to deal with failure and conflict and the fact that luck and timing and, yes, sheer bias and favoritism will have a lot to do with it, too.
6
"The US is huge and fractured, with a surfeit of guns, but a true dearth of culturally sanctioned and readily available means for conflict resolution...Whether we deem their complaints to be valid, or not, they still hurt; and need a prosocial release from their anger and perceived threats to respect and worthiness....People want to be heard, valued and respected."
Thank you, thank you!! That is by far the best articulation of the problem I have seen yet.
Every one of these tragedies is precipitated by major traumas in the murderer's live, usually involving one or more of the following: loss of job, loss of loved one, loss of home, financial problems, problems at school, combined with a lack of friendship and support.
People regularly nervously allude to the possibility that when someone is fired they may come back and shoot people. When will we see that these are the types of major traumas that push people over the edge and we cannot simply push people away to be someone else's problem and hope that people will not take it out on us.
If someone is having such serious troubles that they need to lose their job or income or connection to society then they need to be connected with some real form of support to make sure they can transition to the next phase of their life without self-destructing.
Thank you, thank you!! That is by far the best articulation of the problem I have seen yet.
Every one of these tragedies is precipitated by major traumas in the murderer's live, usually involving one or more of the following: loss of job, loss of loved one, loss of home, financial problems, problems at school, combined with a lack of friendship and support.
People regularly nervously allude to the possibility that when someone is fired they may come back and shoot people. When will we see that these are the types of major traumas that push people over the edge and we cannot simply push people away to be someone else's problem and hope that people will not take it out on us.
If someone is having such serious troubles that they need to lose their job or income or connection to society then they need to be connected with some real form of support to make sure they can transition to the next phase of their life without self-destructing.
2
Why weren't the reporter, the cameraman and the nice woman being interviewed all armed? That would have prevented this for sure. The problem isn't people carrying guns. The problem is too few people are carrying guns!
1
In a gun battle, the guy who draws the gun out first and aims at others wins. Secondly, what good is being armed if the shooter is out of sight and shoots at you unexpectedly before fleeing, Luciano?
A terrible racist-inspired crime. How long will this cycle continue and worsen in the United States today, where will it lead? This is another incident will make the States altogether less United over time.....
9
Will be leaving Paris in two weeks for a wedding in the Virginia countryside. Whenever we drive there on a visit I always point out all the gunshops we pass on the side of the road and their cheery invitations to"come on in and buy." Even after many years, my French husband still shakes his head in disbelief and I feel a deep sense of shame for my country and its love of guns.
24
not like the safe gun-free metros of Paris...
Even after many years, my French husband still shakes his head in disbelief and I feel a deep sense of shame for my country and its love of guns.
----------------
After the Charlie Hebdo murders and the train incident of the last few days, it would seem you and your French husband are both not very self aware.
----------------
After the Charlie Hebdo murders and the train incident of the last few days, it would seem you and your French husband are both not very self aware.
1
Comparing the Charlie Hebdo terrorist victims to the thousands of Americans (men, women, and children) who are killed every year in senseless shootings by their fellow Americans, is somewhat ingenuous don't you think?
I don't want to hear anymore about this gunman, he doesn't deserve the attention. I want to know who sold him the gun. I'd rather see the media shining a light on that than giving this guy any press.
13
The gun culture in America spawns and validates this kind of violence. We rarely hear of guns being used in self-defense, but almost always in the aggressive discharge of anger by angry males. It will be a long time before this stops, if it ever does. A dialogue about cultural values will take generations to affect a change. Until then, it may be necessary to have armed guards in the workplace. The innocent victims of this shooting were concentrating on their jobs and simply did not see the threat standing right next to them. Armed security and better gun controls will be the solution in the short run.
4
The absence of never hearing about guns used in defense should make you realize that you might only be only be reading agenda driven stories and should make you reevaluate how complete your information sources are. Remember, the left isn't always right and the right isn't always wrong.
We rarely hear of guns being used in self-defense, but almost always in the aggressive discharge of anger by angry males.
==================
The media doesn't tell you much about it but it happens every day. According to the Centers for Disease Control:
Almost all national survey estimates indicate that defensive gun uses by victims are at least as common as offensive uses by criminals, with estimates of annual uses ranging from about 500,000 to more than 3 million per year, in the context of about 300,000 violent crimes involving firearms in 2008.
http://www.nap.edu/openbook.php?record_id=18319&page=
==================
The media doesn't tell you much about it but it happens every day. According to the Centers for Disease Control:
Almost all national survey estimates indicate that defensive gun uses by victims are at least as common as offensive uses by criminals, with estimates of annual uses ranging from about 500,000 to more than 3 million per year, in the context of about 300,000 violent crimes involving firearms in 2008.
http://www.nap.edu/openbook.php?record_id=18319&page=
Way past time to take some serious steps to reign in this domestic terrorism. All ideas must be considered and the best implemented as soon as possible
5
Why are 100% of these mass murderers male? Can we talk about that please? Plenty of women are depressed, homicidal, have grievances against their employers or former boyfriends and yet do not kill innocent people with guns. Even though I'm totally for gun control, until we get a handle on male violence and raise boys differently, we' won't solve this problem.
13
Dear Ellen G.,
It's not actually 100%, there are a few women mass shooters, very rare though. But it goes deeper, 9 out of 10 violent felons are male. Men are more violent than women, and as far as the record shows this has always been true. I don't think we can solve this problem, we're not sufficiently advanced.
It's not actually 100%, there are a few women mass shooters, very rare though. But it goes deeper, 9 out of 10 violent felons are male. Men are more violent than women, and as far as the record shows this has always been true. I don't think we can solve this problem, we're not sufficiently advanced.
2
Perhaps if we raised them like girls, and put them on drugs, the problem would be solved.
I absolutely agree that we do need to raise males differently, have programs and the jobs to keep them busy through their turbulent years (15-35 years), and control access to firearms for everyone, but one thing that has to be acknowledged is that this is not just based in nuture. Rather, this is nature for males (I am one), there is a reason that males are the overwhelming participants in violence worldwide throughout history, for better or worse, testosterone.
2
I live in Israel. Last summer rockets fell outside my house. There is no shortage of crazy, hateful people around here who are armed to their teeth . But even we in the Middle East shake our head in disbelief and bewilderment watching this obsession you have with guns. It's completely insane... and so sad.
59
Jonathan - I visited Israel a year ago with a group tour and Jeff Marks, the station manager of WDBJ was on that trip. A nicer person I don't think I've met- I can't image how he and his employees and their families can function right now. The murdered cameraman has been in my store for several live AM broadcasts. There are crazy people everywhere and our current Wild West gun culture makes for a pretty toxic stew. I don't profess to know the answer, but the lack of will of our elected officials to do ANYTHING is frustrating. Call me numb in Roanoke.
155
I'll be surprised if my rejoinder makes it through, but here goes:
Jewish settlers in the occupied west bank patrol their colonies, and often land belonging to Palestinians, with machine guns.
Palestinians are not allowed to own those guns, even though settler attacks have been on the rise.
http://www.globalresearch.ca/settler-violence-in-the-west-bank-a-decades...
With all due and sincere respect to your experience - perhaps if the Palestinian farmers had guns, too, the toddler andhis father burned to death a couple weeks back would still be alive.
http://www.globalresearch.ca/what-happened-israeli-settlers-burned-pales...
Jewish settlers in the occupied west bank patrol their colonies, and often land belonging to Palestinians, with machine guns.
Palestinians are not allowed to own those guns, even though settler attacks have been on the rise.
http://www.globalresearch.ca/settler-violence-in-the-west-bank-a-decades...
With all due and sincere respect to your experience - perhaps if the Palestinian farmers had guns, too, the toddler andhis father burned to death a couple weeks back would still be alive.
http://www.globalresearch.ca/what-happened-israeli-settlers-burned-pales...
3
"I don't profess to know the answer"
I think people admitting they don't know the answer may actually be the beginning of the answer.
If we could all just admit we don't have the answers then maybe we could all look at this together with open minds and figure out where we need to go from here.
Until recently, I was focused firmly on gun control but now I have come to believe that is just the tip of the iceberg and there are even deeper issues to address. The violence in our culture and media. Mental illness. The disconnected individualistic nature of our society. I think Michael Moore was onto something in Bowling for Columbine.
For now, I join you in saying that I do not know the answer.
I think people admitting they don't know the answer may actually be the beginning of the answer.
If we could all just admit we don't have the answers then maybe we could all look at this together with open minds and figure out where we need to go from here.
Until recently, I was focused firmly on gun control but now I have come to believe that is just the tip of the iceberg and there are even deeper issues to address. The violence in our culture and media. Mental illness. The disconnected individualistic nature of our society. I think Michael Moore was onto something in Bowling for Columbine.
For now, I join you in saying that I do not know the answer.
3
This has really really disturbed me today. Two young people who aspired to excel in a field they loved, cut down by yet another gunman. It's getting really old and really odd to live in a country where this continues to happen. I have to read about Trump leading in the polls and then this? What the heck is going on?
Anger is. And if we can't discard presidential candidates who make it their campaign mantra and start pouring much more funding into mental health then I wonder about our future as a nation. As we continue to populate the country and as we continue to see our "personal space" get smaller and smaller, it will only lead to more people just losing it, and having a gun with not even a background check just makes it all the easier. I am really heartbroken and my condolences go out to the families.
Anger is. And if we can't discard presidential candidates who make it their campaign mantra and start pouring much more funding into mental health then I wonder about our future as a nation. As we continue to populate the country and as we continue to see our "personal space" get smaller and smaller, it will only lead to more people just losing it, and having a gun with not even a background check just makes it all the easier. I am really heartbroken and my condolences go out to the families.
9
As others have asked here and elsewhere- when is enough? What will it take before we get some saying gun-control that prevents crazy people from acquiring an arsenal? It is time now. My personal condolences to these sad families.
4
In response to a writer who declares that we don't need to go "full Australia", see quote below from an earlier news article:
In the 19 years since the announcement of legislation specifically designed to reduce gun massacres, Australia has seen no mass shootings. As Howard wrote in an opinion piece for the New York Times in 2013, "Today, there is a wide consensus that our 1996 reforms not only reduced the gun-related homicide rate, but also the suicide rate."
(the quote is by John Howard, Prime Minister of Australia in 1996 when a mass shooting occurred in Australia)
The best outcome in this country would be to go 'full Australia', yet we are a nation of political cowards who make a choice to accept NRA money versus loss of many many lives each year.
In the 19 years since the announcement of legislation specifically designed to reduce gun massacres, Australia has seen no mass shootings. As Howard wrote in an opinion piece for the New York Times in 2013, "Today, there is a wide consensus that our 1996 reforms not only reduced the gun-related homicide rate, but also the suicide rate."
(the quote is by John Howard, Prime Minister of Australia in 1996 when a mass shooting occurred in Australia)
The best outcome in this country would be to go 'full Australia', yet we are a nation of political cowards who make a choice to accept NRA money versus loss of many many lives each year.
21
I hope journalists unite like never before and bring utterly overwhelming media coverage to the issue of gun control in honor of their fallen brother and sister.
7
If everyone has the right to buy and carry whatever weapons they want, wherever they want... if it's important for everyone to be armed, so that they will- in theory- never be a victim... then why is it that Congress doesn't eliminate security at the Capitol and arm themselves?
8
People love guns because it makes them feel big and powerful, a message constantly reinforced by movies, video games, and the NRA. But the reality, as this incident shows, is that people who use guns are cowards, small and creepy. Today's victims, like the teachers and children at Newtown or the worshippers in Charleston, had no fighting chance. We need to think differently about guns and the people who use them. The re-thinking has to happen before any changes to the law will happen. Unfortunately, we have a long way to go and we haven't even started. When will we wake up?
13
But the reality, as this incident shows, is that people who use guns are cowards, small and creepy.
=================
So you are saying people in the police and military are small, creepy cowards?
=================
So you are saying people in the police and military are small, creepy cowards?
1
Short of banning all personal weapons, I don't know how this incident could have been avoided. Is that a practical solution? I think he could have easily qualified for a permit in any state. I'd be in favor of gun registration and background checks if I could be convinced that the government wouldn't misuse the information. The IRS transgressions in the last several years in this regard do not inspire confidence in that solution.
2
If we truly cared about the victims of gun violence, we would actually try to change our culture. This incident will pass in the news cycle and all of us will be back here in a couple weeks commenting on another horrific shooting. I don't have all the answers on how to stop this madness, but it doesn't even seem like we are trying.
We need less praying after these incidents, and more proactive action to protect American citizens.
We need less praying after these incidents, and more proactive action to protect American citizens.
7
Today's shooting, like all other shootings, is terrorism. People who own guns make us fearful for our lives. A gun has one use. One cowardly use. Those of us who lead our lives working through our problems by talking and empathy are forced by gun owners to live in fear like the victims of domestic abuse, constantly on the lookout for what might lead to more violence. Today's coward...today's terrorist, chose a gun to wield power over others. It could have been your neighbor with a grievance against you. It could have been a parent upset with a teacher going into your child's school. Remove the guns from the equation and the coward's way is removed. Since we know that our elected officials are too cowardly to do so, maybe it's time to ban the manufacture, sale, and import of ammunition.
8
What a horrible, senseless tragedy. My thoughts and prayers go out to the victims' families and friends. This guy apparently had been stoking his anger for quite some time. People who exhibit this kind of behavior need to be monitored, and NOT allowed to make a gun purchase! More innocent blood shed over the right to carry. I don't know what it will take to change the political will to REASONABLY regulate firearms in this country, but it comes too late for these good people. So sorry.
2
Many posts here calling for gun control. Yet no one has the answer how to do it. Tell me how do you get all the guns in America? How do you get the guns from people that don't obey laws?
2
Easy: stop selling guns. And stop selling ammunition.
Will there be a black market? Sure. But it will not be available to 90% of the people who do these mass killings (plus the "ordinary" onesie, twosie killings)
Will there be a black market? Sure. But it will not be available to 90% of the people who do these mass killings (plus the "ordinary" onesie, twosie killings)
5
You don't. It will take a generation, or maybe more, but you have to get God back into society. Human life has no value right now because the left has created a society where the government is the god.
There are many, very well known answers to your questions: buy backs, turn-ins (no questions asked) and other types of "amnesty" programs, more rigorous background checks, educational campaigns, public health announcements, tighter community policing, etc.
Are these solutions perfect? Would we ever get ALL the guns? Of course not. But fewer guns = fewer senseless shootings. It is really that simple, and everyone knows it. Sure, some psychos will run around with knives instead, if they can't get guns. But you have way better odds of surviving a knife attack than a shooting.
Are these solutions perfect? Would we ever get ALL the guns? Of course not. But fewer guns = fewer senseless shootings. It is really that simple, and everyone knows it. Sure, some psychos will run around with knives instead, if they can't get guns. But you have way better odds of surviving a knife attack than a shooting.
1
I concur with the commentators who question why more is not done to identify and work with those who show the potential for violence. Guns need someone to pull the trigger and only people who seem to loose control are pulling them. Instead of cutting back funding for education and the caring/social health fields we should be in expansion mode. we spend so much time and focus on gun control instead of educating people about self control.
2
I get that the shooter was troubled and had never gained professional (and probably personal) acceptance after years of trying . Sadly, some people never find a place where they fit in. And this can make them crazy. Given enough despair, they may take their own lives. That's a tragedy, but I get it.
What I don't get is why these people have to murder innocents. These two victims had NOTHING to do with the shooter's treatment at WDBJ. He was terminated more than two years ago.
The result here: everyone loses. Meaningless loss. The shooter should have just taken his own life and left it at that.
What I don't get is why these people have to murder innocents. These two victims had NOTHING to do with the shooter's treatment at WDBJ. He was terminated more than two years ago.
The result here: everyone loses. Meaningless loss. The shooter should have just taken his own life and left it at that.
5
"The shooter should have just taken his own life and left it at that."
The thing is that nobody would have cared if he just took his own life and he knew that. In fact, tens of thousands of people every year under similar circumstances do just commit suicide and we never talk about them and pore over their lives. The reason murderers keep committing these horrific acts is because they know it will get them so much attention and it will get their lives and experiences examined in a way that never would happen otherwise.
People keep saying the media should not reward these murderers by talking about them. But the answer comes before the horrific act -- so many people in this world are marginalized and driven off the edge, so many are reaching out for help in the only way they know how which is usually not by saying "I need help'. We ALL should be reaching out and supporting those people, and we should care not just about preventing these mass murders but also about the suicides and the drug and alcohol addictions and wasted miserable lives that so many of us lead.
We as a society do not concern ourselves with people suffering from mental illness until they commit a horrific act. The answer is not to ignore the horrific act but to NOT ignore the suffering.
(None of this is intended to excuse or express sympathy for this or any other mass murderer - my sympathy now lies entirely with the people whose lives he took and those impacted by the tragedy)
The thing is that nobody would have cared if he just took his own life and he knew that. In fact, tens of thousands of people every year under similar circumstances do just commit suicide and we never talk about them and pore over their lives. The reason murderers keep committing these horrific acts is because they know it will get them so much attention and it will get their lives and experiences examined in a way that never would happen otherwise.
People keep saying the media should not reward these murderers by talking about them. But the answer comes before the horrific act -- so many people in this world are marginalized and driven off the edge, so many are reaching out for help in the only way they know how which is usually not by saying "I need help'. We ALL should be reaching out and supporting those people, and we should care not just about preventing these mass murders but also about the suicides and the drug and alcohol addictions and wasted miserable lives that so many of us lead.
We as a society do not concern ourselves with people suffering from mental illness until they commit a horrific act. The answer is not to ignore the horrific act but to NOT ignore the suffering.
(None of this is intended to excuse or express sympathy for this or any other mass murderer - my sympathy now lies entirely with the people whose lives he took and those impacted by the tragedy)
To Alma,
Why couch this guy's alienation from society in psycho-jargon? He was alienated. Period. Pathologizing his social status, or lack thereof, only reinforces the societal ills which motivated him to match one form of violence (being fired in a humiliating fashion) with another form of violence (murder).
Why couch this guy's alienation from society in psycho-jargon? He was alienated. Period. Pathologizing his social status, or lack thereof, only reinforces the societal ills which motivated him to match one form of violence (being fired in a humiliating fashion) with another form of violence (murder).
2
I'm beginning to feel like we are all living inside a Tarantino movie. You can say all you want about the difference between art and real life, right from wrong, criminals with guns vs las abiding citizens with guns, the mentally ill vs the mentally stable, etc. but it's becoming clear that a turning point is on its way. I'm sorry for all this victims that lost/will lose their lives leading up to this inevitable change. But the sooner it gets here the better for us all and the reputation of our country.
5
"I'm beginning to feel like we are all living inside a Tarantino movie."
Tarantino movies are part of the problem. Part of this sick culture that glorifies violence. Nobody wants to admit that, nobody involved in the creation of these movies and television shows and video games wants to take responsibility for teaching children that violence is the answer. Everyday after one of these tragedies I walk by big posters showing some Hollywood star with automatic weapons in his hands meant to look heroic. What if actors actually took some responsibility and refused to star in films that glorify violence no matter how much money they are offered?
Maybe George Clooney will discuss this with Colbert in a couple weeks. I'll keep dreaming.
Tarantino movies are part of the problem. Part of this sick culture that glorifies violence. Nobody wants to admit that, nobody involved in the creation of these movies and television shows and video games wants to take responsibility for teaching children that violence is the answer. Everyday after one of these tragedies I walk by big posters showing some Hollywood star with automatic weapons in his hands meant to look heroic. What if actors actually took some responsibility and refused to star in films that glorify violence no matter how much money they are offered?
Maybe George Clooney will discuss this with Colbert in a couple weeks. I'll keep dreaming.
1
Why don't we ban alcohol? According to the CDC, excessive alcohol use led to approximately 88,000 deaths each year in the United States from 2006 – 2010, shortening the lives of those who died by an average of 30 years. Further, excessive drinking was responsible for 1 in 10 deaths among working-age adults aged 20-64 years. It seems to be a much bigger problem than guns but it doesn't fit within the elite's narrative of placing all power with the government, which is exactly what will happen when we take away the rights of ordinary Americans to own guns. I don't own a gun and probably never will but the thought of only allowing the government to have guns is frightening.
4
Why don't we ban alcohol?
===================
Well we tried that, remember? How did that work out?
===================
Well we tried that, remember? How did that work out?
2
Another ridiculous "argument" from a gun fetishist.
We await the pivot to the "car deaths vs gun deaths" argument.
We await the pivot to the "car deaths vs gun deaths" argument.
5
JL. Stop bringing logic and facts into the conversation. You are irritating those who have forfeited their ability to think and reason.
I've become convinced that until a super-majority of American citizens loses a loved one to senseless gun violence like this, nothing will happen in terms of gun legislation. And perhaps not even then.
14
Reading comments, I see that I was naive in my commented hope that, "How about we just have the decency to let this tragic story sit for twenty-four hours before everyone starts using it to claim that it vindicates their point of view about gun control laws."
Look, if someone premeditates murders such as these, he or she will be able to get a gun, whatever the gun control laws. And if the victims carried guns, it would not have helped them in the least.
Let it be: anecdotal evidence make for great passion and lousy policy.
Look, if someone premeditates murders such as these, he or she will be able to get a gun, whatever the gun control laws. And if the victims carried guns, it would not have helped them in the least.
Let it be: anecdotal evidence make for great passion and lousy policy.
4
If we continue to wait 24 hours after a mass shooting to discuss gun control, we will never discuss it, as there is now a mass shooting in this country every 24 hours.
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2015/07/24/1405429/-There-s-been-one-mass-...
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2015/07/24/1405429/-There-s-been-one-mass-...
Right – it is always "too soon" to talk about it.
Fact: making guns harder to get will reduce incidents like this (along with many other less "newsworthy" gun killings)
Fact: making guns harder to get will reduce incidents like this (along with many other less "newsworthy" gun killings)
I don't think the statistics compiled on gun deaths worldwide (Both the UN and WHO have them) is anecdotal evidence.
2
Can't judge...there's truth in each side...is this what happens when people choose to ignore that which is uncomfortable or unpleasant to see...ignoring behavioral problems or solving them with a termination could lead to this result...and at the risk of sounding cynical, let's blame the guns and the laws.
1
Short of mass confiscation of privately held guns, which is apparently what a great deal of readers would like, what specific federal law changes would people want to see which would have prevented or made this tragedy less likely?
1
Mass confiscation of privately held guns.
2
Here are your specific federal law changes: Widespread gun buy back programs; liability insurance must be taken out with a firearm purchase; gun purchasers must have a locked gun safe at home and must utilize this safe when the guns are not in use; an individual purchasing guns can't have an unreasonable history of recent mental illnesses, convictions, and must be of a sound mind verified by a background check that interviews the person's acquaintances; people purchasing guns must have a valid stated reason for purchasing the weapon (e.g. hunting); mandatory gun safety certification; the reinstitution of mental institutions; limits on magazine capacity; a national registry of gun purchases; 30 day waiting periods; the elimination of the trade show loop hole; adequate funding for mental health care; subsidies/ requirements for devices that disarm weapons when alcohol is present in the sweat (detection methods already exist); a prohibitively high tax on ammunition. Do you need more?
Good luck with any of that. Many of the changes you'd like to see aren't compatible with a non-police state or simply aren't politically possible. There is no reason that any gun owner should have to demonstrate to your satisfaction a "valid" reason for exercising his or her constitutional right. And it is not any of my friends' or acquaintances' business if I wish to purchase a gun. It's an _individual_right. As long as I am in sound mind and not a convicted felon I should be able to purchase a firearm.
In the version I am reading, there is no clear identification that I could readily find of the specific city where the journalist and guest worked, or the metro area the station served. Also not clear where the incident took place.
A hospital with the word Raleigh in its name is mentioned - I assumed that is where this took place but I'd like to know exactly.
A hospital with the word Raleigh in its name is mentioned - I assumed that is where this took place but I'd like to know exactly.
2
Living in England not a day goes by when there is not a story on a shooting in America. You claim to be the greatest country in the world....really?
Your gun laws are a joke and make America look silly. Why do you let the gun lobby dictate and why is America so scared of them?
Wake up America it is time to be brave and put strict gun controls in place. Then maybe you will be great again one day.
Your gun laws are a joke and make America look silly. Why do you let the gun lobby dictate and why is America so scared of them?
Wake up America it is time to be brave and put strict gun controls in place. Then maybe you will be great again one day.
49
How appropriate and how embarrassing.
3
This country became the greatest country because its citizens took their rifles down from the mantle and violently threw out the oppressive government in charge.
right on!!!!
1
How about we just have the decency to let this tragic story sit for twenty-four hours before everyone starts using it to claim that it vindicates their point of view about gun control laws.
7
According to Vox.com, there is a mass shooting almost every day in the US (http://www.vox.com/2015/8/24/9183525/gun-violence-statistics). Therefore, letting this story sit for 24 hours will only permit it to be replaced by the next gun-related tragedy.
"decency"?
What decency is there in refusing to address our epidemic of gun violence. According to some, it is always "too soon" to talk about these incidents.
What decency is there in refusing to address our epidemic of gun violence. According to some, it is always "too soon" to talk about these incidents.
In addition to our collective horror, this unconscionable act of violence reminds us how fragile life is. It thus encourages us to fully/completely live each and every precious moment.
4
Sadly, it is fairly easy to see how our society come to the point where violence is an "acceptable" reaction to resolving issues. We are shown violence constantly with television, movies, 24 hour news/entertainment, etc. Suicide bombings are a part of our everyday life. No longer is it shocking. Our society has become desensitized and this behavior has becomes "normal" with the perpetrators broadcasting their acts on the internet for all to see. In case anyone does not understand... this is not normal. Society degrades when civility degrades.
Unfortunately, I am not shocked by this senseless act. It happens too often. I am not shocked that Mr. Williams decided this was an acceptable way to resolve his complaint. Variations of this theme are played out in the news every day. Rather, I am sad, very sad this continues while our society reacts for a short time and moves on to the next senseless act. The conversation should not be about guns. The conversation is about why violence has become an option to resolve disputes at seemingly any level.
Unfortunately, I am not shocked by this senseless act. It happens too often. I am not shocked that Mr. Williams decided this was an acceptable way to resolve his complaint. Variations of this theme are played out in the news every day. Rather, I am sad, very sad this continues while our society reacts for a short time and moves on to the next senseless act. The conversation should not be about guns. The conversation is about why violence has become an option to resolve disputes at seemingly any level.
5
How many shots must innocents take...
NOW do we have a gun violence epidemic? Tomorrow? The day after? When?
NOW do we have a gun violence epidemic? Tomorrow? The day after? When?
4
Gun owners have decided that living with an epidemic of gun violence is an acceptable price for everyone else to pay.
2
I don't want to confuse you with facts Ratna, but gun violence is statistically vastly lower than at just about any time in our history. The difference is, nowadays everyone has a video camera and is capable of posting just about anything to the masses with a few clicks of a button.
No chance of you confusing anyone with facts, Pablo, least of all yourself. From Wikipedia:
In 2013 the United States' firearm-related death rate was 10.64 deaths for every 100,000 inhabitants. By comparison Australia, which imposed sweeping gun control laws in response to the Port Arthur massacre in 1996, has a firearm death rate of 0.86 per 100,000, and in the United Kingdom the rate is 0.26.
In 2013 the United States' firearm-related death rate was 10.64 deaths for every 100,000 inhabitants. By comparison Australia, which imposed sweeping gun control laws in response to the Port Arthur massacre in 1996, has a firearm death rate of 0.86 per 100,000, and in the United Kingdom the rate is 0.26.
2
How many people have to die before we pass some enforceable gun laws that remove the threat of crazies having firearms? And the operative words being enforceable and carried out by law enforcement agencies.
5
All of these shootings, in malls, movie theaters, parking lots, fast food restaurants, etc., are making it a greater risk to go out in public. No wonder Netflix stock has soared. More and more people can not only save money and time by not going to a theatre, but the safety from psychos is also a factor in signing up for Netflix. And in most cities you can just order food and anything else delivered to your door right from your phone. Why risk a mall shooting when you can shop in the safety of your home? And if you work at a place where some troublemaker is fired, you have to worry about that unstable person coming back one day with a weapon seeking revenge on everyone remaining there.
For may years as a college dean I had to discipline hundreds of students for cheating or other infractions, suspending many. My secretary and I would constantly comment about which one of them would come back with a weapon and shoot up our office. We had to install panic buttons in all of our offices. I made sure that my car was always parked in sight of the security guard at the parking lot. Soon all high level people will start having panic rooms added to their offices... What a country, what a world.
For may years as a college dean I had to discipline hundreds of students for cheating or other infractions, suspending many. My secretary and I would constantly comment about which one of them would come back with a weapon and shoot up our office. We had to install panic buttons in all of our offices. I made sure that my car was always parked in sight of the security guard at the parking lot. Soon all high level people will start having panic rooms added to their offices... What a country, what a world.
312
You have an infinitely greater chance of dying in a car crash...should we ban cars as well..they're far more dangerous.
1
. . . and what a very sad and terrifying predicament to be confronted with LT. Unfortunately, the price of freedom is anything but free.
1
All of these shootings, in malls, movie theaters, parking lots, fast food restaurants, etc., are making it a greater risk to go out in public.
=====================
Actually, that's not true at all. The average American is actually safer from crime of all kinds than he has been since the late 70s:
Violent Crime Drops to Lowest Level Since 1978
http://time.com/3577026/crime-rates-drop-1970s/
Gun Homicide Rate Down 49% Since 1993 Peak; Public Unaware
http://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2013/05/07/gun-homicide-rate-down-49-sinc...
=====================
Actually, that's not true at all. The average American is actually safer from crime of all kinds than he has been since the late 70s:
Violent Crime Drops to Lowest Level Since 1978
http://time.com/3577026/crime-rates-drop-1970s/
Gun Homicide Rate Down 49% Since 1993 Peak; Public Unaware
http://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2013/05/07/gun-homicide-rate-down-49-sinc...
2
Iraqis wake up every morning in fear of being suicide-bombed to death, while Americans must wake up every morning in fear of being shot dead by an unhappy person.
Maybe one day Iraq will become strong enough to invade the USA and overthrow its government. Any such action taken by Iraq will be no less justified than what the USA did to Iraq in 2003.
I'm afraid we're not too far away from the first instance of a mass shooting being recorded by the perpetrator and uploaded onto YouTube. The first person to do such a thing will undoubtedly be an American in the United States.
Maybe one day Iraq will become strong enough to invade the USA and overthrow its government. Any such action taken by Iraq will be no less justified than what the USA did to Iraq in 2003.
I'm afraid we're not too far away from the first instance of a mass shooting being recorded by the perpetrator and uploaded onto YouTube. The first person to do such a thing will undoubtedly be an American in the United States.
The next time you're tempted to post something like this, kindly take a long walk around the block, OK? Thanks.
1
We could save ourselves a lot of trouble by requiring handgun purchasers get a psych evaluation before their first purchase. The people who would have a problem with this are probably the same people who wouldn't pass.
7
This former reporter had a history of mental issues and had previously worked at various television stations across the South, including in Greenville, N.C., Savannah, Ga., and Tallahassee, Fla. - "claiming to have been subjected to racist comments in the workplace", “quickly gathered a reputation as someone who was difficult to work with. He was sort of looking out for people to say things that he could take offense to. Eventually, after many incidents of his anger coming to the fore, we dismissed him. He did not take that well, and we had to call the police to escort him from the building.”
This guy was a walking time bomb and who knows if he ever sought or was treated for any kind of mental illness.
My bigger fear and question is how many other Bryce Williams, (whose real name is Vester Lee Flanagan) are out there, ready to snap and take innocent lives? Granted, hand guns, assault rifles, and other weaponry is, unfortunately, easier to obtain than it should be and was used in so many recent cases. But the bigger, wider problem is the mental health issues of individuals which is not being addressed. It's only until gun issues AND mental health issues are seriously addressed will this type of needless violence and loss of life diminish.
Sincere condolences to all of the family members effected.
This guy was a walking time bomb and who knows if he ever sought or was treated for any kind of mental illness.
My bigger fear and question is how many other Bryce Williams, (whose real name is Vester Lee Flanagan) are out there, ready to snap and take innocent lives? Granted, hand guns, assault rifles, and other weaponry is, unfortunately, easier to obtain than it should be and was used in so many recent cases. But the bigger, wider problem is the mental health issues of individuals which is not being addressed. It's only until gun issues AND mental health issues are seriously addressed will this type of needless violence and loss of life diminish.
Sincere condolences to all of the family members effected.
125
Someone can be perfectly sane,buy a gun,and 10 years later get depression,and go on a shooting spree...you cant TELL if someones going to lose it somewhere down the line
1
No, it's actually more difficult to obtain firearms than it should be despite the fact firearm regulations have overall been loosened over the last few decades. What most liberals don't understand is the way to "win" this whole "gun violence game" is to make sure it is incredibly easy for sane, law-abiding citizens to acquire firearms, while making it extremely difficult for criminals and the mentally ill to obtain firearms. Are there holes in that strategy? Yes, there are, but the reality is those holes are not as big as the ones caused by gun-control in the most gun-restrictive states. Those bigger holes are shown in areas like Chicago, Camden, Newburgh, Brownsville in Brooklyn, Oakland, Honolulu, and more where owning a firearm is near impossible. Detroit is also very dangerous, but things are improving because the firearm ownership rate is increasing along with an increasing rate of carry permits being issued. Basically, Detroit is currently a scary place to live, but it's also becoming a very scary place to commit a crime. So the bigger holes are easy to patch up, but the smaller holes require a bit of thinking. While some lives may still be lost during that thinking time, it will be much less than the amount that will be lost with stricter gun laws. I can assure you that fixing the mental health issue will fix a good amount of the issue as a whole, while further restricting firearms will reverse that progress. You can't end gun violence, but you can minimize it.
So, do you honestly think that a gay black man working in the south was never the subject of discrimination?
What world do you live in?
What world do you live in?
When is enough enough? It is not that these gun inspired outrages don't happen outside the United States, it is they happen LESS due to gun control. We should be ashamed as Americans at the almost weekly carnage by our citizens against each other. And yes, I am quite aware I am writing this after last weekend's averted tragedy on the train from Amsterdam to Paris. That was averted by the courage of three Americans, something of which we can be proud.
10
Sadly, it's unlikely today's shootings will lead better gun control laws. If Newtown didn't (when 90% of Americans supported universal background checks), it's hard to imagine what would.
The last time a permanent national gun control law passed was the Brady Handgun Violence Prevention Act of 1993, which resulted from the 1981 shooting of Pres. Reagan.
As long as we have the 2nd Amendment, the NRA, and politicians bought and paid for by corporate interests, nothing will be done on a national level to reduce gun violence in America. (A few states - NY, Conn., and Colo. - bucked the trend toward looser gun laws after Newtown.)
Is it even possible to significantly reduce gun violence in America? I think so, even though we are a large country, with a so many guns in circulation. It would take very strong laws, and a change in culture (the laws would have to come first).
After every newsworthy shooting the gun apologists come out with the usual meaningless "arguments" against gun control: there's nothing that can be done; criminals will always be able to get guns regardless of the laws; the 2nd Amendment; the only way to stop a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun; etc. ad nauseam.
Other countries have strict gun control laws and little gun violence. There are many things we could do to prevent gun violence - universal background checks; monitor or close rogue gun dealerships; mandatory training; among others. All we need to do is try.
The last time a permanent national gun control law passed was the Brady Handgun Violence Prevention Act of 1993, which resulted from the 1981 shooting of Pres. Reagan.
As long as we have the 2nd Amendment, the NRA, and politicians bought and paid for by corporate interests, nothing will be done on a national level to reduce gun violence in America. (A few states - NY, Conn., and Colo. - bucked the trend toward looser gun laws after Newtown.)
Is it even possible to significantly reduce gun violence in America? I think so, even though we are a large country, with a so many guns in circulation. It would take very strong laws, and a change in culture (the laws would have to come first).
After every newsworthy shooting the gun apologists come out with the usual meaningless "arguments" against gun control: there's nothing that can be done; criminals will always be able to get guns regardless of the laws; the 2nd Amendment; the only way to stop a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun; etc. ad nauseam.
Other countries have strict gun control laws and little gun violence. There are many things we could do to prevent gun violence - universal background checks; monitor or close rogue gun dealerships; mandatory training; among others. All we need to do is try.
9
Is it even possible to significantly reduce gun violence in America? I think so, even though we are a large country, with a so many guns in circulation. It would take very strong laws, and a change in culture (the laws would have to come first).
=======================
Baloney.
We've ALREADY significantly reduced gun violence:
Gun Homicide Rate Down 49% Since 1993 Peak; Public Unaware
http://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2013/05/07/gun-homicide-rate-down-49-sinc...
=======================
Baloney.
We've ALREADY significantly reduced gun violence:
Gun Homicide Rate Down 49% Since 1993 Peak; Public Unaware
http://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2013/05/07/gun-homicide-rate-down-49-sinc...
Let's hold a constitutional convention and rethink the second amendment. It's not sacred. It's burying us.
28
Everyone must turn their guns over to the authorities--now.
Go figure,, John Little, Sr.
Go figure,, John Little, Sr.
This tragedy has nothing to do with the Second Amendment. Do you blame Jack Daniels and Toyota for all the drunk driving deaths? Didn't think so.
6
The second amendment has little to do with the proliferation of guns, actually. No well regulated militia among the American public, as far as I can tell.
2
Actually, I do.
1
Neither Jack Daniel's not Toyota products result in death when used properly.
2
So sad for both of the victims family. This is one of the saddest things I ever read. Two beautiful people losing their lives so senselessly. Breaks my heart. My thoughts and prayers are with their families and loved ones today. RIP.
3
So curious to me that we can't stomach showing the prequel or aftermath of gun violence but have no issue with not supporting gun control laws. The former is the result of the latter - folks should stand by the results of their actions or non action.
8
What a sick society that we have become! This has to end! our country should be better than this. Even when Gabriele Giffords, a member of the House was shot, it didn't matter to our politicians. Whatever it takes to stop the gun lobby, we have to do it.
11
The politicians are cowardly hypocrites. They vote to allow guns everywhere, but not anywhere allowed near the halls of Congress. We need to lobby to get rid of security checks in Washington DC so that they will have the same doubts and fears as the rest of us, then let's see how they feel about background checks etc.( eg I was not allowed to have a Swiss army knife in my bag going into the Smithsonian museum a few years ago, but it was allowed into every other museum I had been in CT, NY etc)
1
Jackie, you're right it's a sick society. But how did an inanimate object (a gun) make it that way?
What do you think gun manufacturers, the NRA, and their legion of supporters in Congress are doing right now? I promise it's not doing any self-reflecting or trying to figure out a single way to make Americans safer. All they care about is money and power. There's no amount of murder and mayhem that will change their warped view of the world.
Let's stop mincing words about the problem here and who is behind it.
Let's stop mincing words about the problem here and who is behind it.
12
States like Texas and Florida want guns to be allowed on college campuses. Guns are now allowed in national parks and campers are afraid of being shot accidentally. And with good reason, a camper was shot accidentally according to a recent Times article. The rights of gun owners have now jumped the shark making them more like war lords who intimidate the average citizen. Even the police face more dangerous conditions because so many people are armed. The founding fathers did not have this in mind when they wrote the second amendment. There are common sense regulations that we can enact without banning guns entirely but they should not be allowed in public places.
20
They sure didn't think the courts would abolish religion and faith, but they had just shot thousands of enemy troops to gain Independence.
Well, it‘s Texas and Florida. Enough said.
1
America is the land of the numb. After a classroom full of kindergarten children are gunned down, nothing has changed. After nine people are gunned down at their place of worship, nothing has changed. After two people are executed in a movie theater, nothing is done. It is now the American norm to live in fear. Land of the numb, home of the scared.
17
... and not of terrorists but of our own.
What a horror rolling across my phone and computer this AM. Condolences to the families and loved ones of the victims.
4
What shocked me the most is that I wasn't shocked by this news. It seemed so... commonplace. Our nation has gone mad.
16
There's another angle I've either missed or hasn't been explored. How did the shooter know there would be a live broadcast with this reporter from this location? Was he stalking them?
I'm not aware of (or really care) in advance where local TV will be doing live remotes. So how did the shooter know where this specific reporter would be?
I'm not aware of (or really care) in advance where local TV will be doing live remotes. So how did the shooter know where this specific reporter would be?
3
Joe S.
This was a live broadcast. I expect that takes a truck with the required hardware to send the signal back to the station. The truck would stand out like a sore thumb.
In a small town, how hard is it to spot one of those trucks?
The shooter likely did not care which employee he shot, just that they had a connection to the station. Who said he targeted this crew in particular? However, in a small town, how many crews do they have? One, two?
This was a live broadcast. I expect that takes a truck with the required hardware to send the signal back to the station. The truck would stand out like a sore thumb.
In a small town, how hard is it to spot one of those trucks?
The shooter likely did not care which employee he shot, just that they had a connection to the station. Who said he targeted this crew in particular? However, in a small town, how many crews do they have? One, two?
Was the name of the gunman Bryce Williams, or Vester Flanagan. Different news outlets are reporting different names....
New York Times, thank you for the correction.
One in the same person. He changed his name.
His real name is (was now) Flanagan. He used the name Bryce Williams when he was broadcasting
1
How many more people have to die before this country realizes that we need tougher gun control laws. A lot of people will say it is not the guns that are the problem, it is the people. However; that logic is not only disrespectful to the families of the victims of these senseless crimes, it is condescending. Of course the issue are not the guns, after all, they are inanimate objects. However, we need to make sure they stay in-animated. This is heart breaking, especially because so many will keep on defending guns in this country.
6
Skarlatos, Sadler, and Stone weren't packing any metal when they tackled and disarmed el-Khazzani. Clearly guns are not the only answer to self-protection against criminal threats. Imagine the carnage that would have ensued if these three gentlemen (along with the majority of their fellow passengers) had been carrying semi-automatics.
5
If two military personnel who help subdue the train gunman had been armed, they would probably not have been injured, but that is more reflective of training with weapons than the weapons themselves.
There are lots of idiots who are afraid of guns because they would blow their own toes off if they handled one, and I'm not sympathetic to their fears.
There are lots of idiots who are afraid of guns because they would blow their own toes off if they handled one, and I'm not sympathetic to their fears.
1
My heart goes out to Alison Parker's and Adam Ward's families, loved ones, and coworkers. What happened to them this morning is too horrible for words.
6
If citizens can no longer have firearms, the majority of police should not either. If you want to make a difference, take lethal firearms away from officers first. Set the example.
5
That's about the most unworkable proposition on this issue I've heard yet.
1
How about first taking away the firearms from people that haven't been educated, trained, and licensed in the use of their firearm, and regularly submit to recurring training? You can't rule out the criminal intent which is why we have our law enforcement in the first place. They are the ONLY ones authorized to use deadly force (and they have been trained to use deadly force when the situation arises). This isn't a frick'in badminton game, dude. C'mon.
1
what many of these homicidal maniacs have in common is a death-wish. Or it seems like a high percentge kill thsemelves after the crime. This suggests that they
1) feel intolerable guilt
2) fear judicial punishment.
I assume it's the first. Perhaps they are just suicidal and want to take other people out with them.
Still, they are not pure psychopaths or serial killers. These are crimes of hatred, despair, or rage. They may also be the killer's device for forcing himself to commit suicide. maybe he can't bring himself to do it. So, he has to do something so horrific that his only choice is to take his own life.
I feel like many of these atrocities must be committed by people who are
1) too cowardly to take their own life without giving themselves no alternative
2) people who feel enough remorse to turn the gun on themselves
Maybe if there were suicide centers where people could go to terminate their unhappy life there would be fewer shootings. Just a random thought.
1) feel intolerable guilt
2) fear judicial punishment.
I assume it's the first. Perhaps they are just suicidal and want to take other people out with them.
Still, they are not pure psychopaths or serial killers. These are crimes of hatred, despair, or rage. They may also be the killer's device for forcing himself to commit suicide. maybe he can't bring himself to do it. So, he has to do something so horrific that his only choice is to take his own life.
I feel like many of these atrocities must be committed by people who are
1) too cowardly to take their own life without giving themselves no alternative
2) people who feel enough remorse to turn the gun on themselves
Maybe if there were suicide centers where people could go to terminate their unhappy life there would be fewer shootings. Just a random thought.
2
Why none of the presidential candidates are speaking against gun violence and the proliferation of guns in our society? Why is this topic the third rail in politics? Is it because it is easier to hide under the second ammendment instead of finding a solution? Are they afraid of the gun and ammo lobby?
14
There is one, and only one way to put an end to the violence guns cause in our society:
Write, telephone, email your representatives in Congress to stop the insane gun culture of the United States. Tell them over and over again how strongly you feel about ending the ease in which guns can be acquired --and used! Insist that they take an active role in preventing another shooting death in America. Bring up their activities in this cause at every public meeting they attend. Make this a litmus test for whom you will vote during the next elections, and make sure your elected representatives know that you intend to hold them personally accountable for resolving this crisis.
And then vote accordingly.
Write, telephone, email your representatives in Congress to stop the insane gun culture of the United States. Tell them over and over again how strongly you feel about ending the ease in which guns can be acquired --and used! Insist that they take an active role in preventing another shooting death in America. Bring up their activities in this cause at every public meeting they attend. Make this a litmus test for whom you will vote during the next elections, and make sure your elected representatives know that you intend to hold them personally accountable for resolving this crisis.
And then vote accordingly.
9
I think many people wrote,telephoned and emailed their representatives after the Sandy Hook massacre, and we see how that turned out.
Whatever viewpoint one has, one has to accept the fact that guns are an an integral part of this country's ethos, integral to it's historic consciousness and (probably like no other country) specifically enshrined it's very heart and soul i.e The Constitution. No other material possession is specifically mentioned in our nation's supreme law document. Not cars, not shoes, not watches, to put a fine point on it. This,up to the present time is apparently how the majority of the citizenry wish it to be. Only a national effort through our congress and executive backed by the majority of the population can change the present situation. But we are what we are. As long as the" right to bear arms" has the same weight as the freedom of speech, assembly,there can and will be no change.
2
When will we be able to say no: NO you cannot own a gun.
18
Actually we say that right now to felons. But the problem is, the Federal government doesn't seem much interested in even enforcing the existing laws we have on firearms:
Biden to NRA: We ‘don’t have the time’ to prosecute gun buyers who lie on background checks
http://dailycaller.com/2013/01/18/biden-to-nra-we-dont-have-the-time-to-...
Biden to NRA: We ‘don’t have the time’ to prosecute gun buyers who lie on background checks
http://dailycaller.com/2013/01/18/biden-to-nra-we-dont-have-the-time-to-...
It's been done. Hitler, Pol Pot, Kim Il-Sun, Tokugawa, many dictators in the age of gunpowder stopped their civilians from having guns. It nearly always leads to bad things.
1
We all have a gun and we all live in a very sick Country. Not good.
5
I suspect this would not have turned out this way if the killer had held a knife in his hand and not a gun. The rest of the world must look to us as barbarous. Isis beheads, we are appalled, yet we let our unhappy, depressed, angry and insane citizens acquire guns and kill people. And then our politicians make insane statements like "Guns don't kill people, people kill people." Ah yes, yet another example of American Exceptionalism!
22
No, he would've run them over instead.
When are we going to come to our senses and eliminate guns from everyday life? It is a national shame that so many people either commit suicide or kill other people with easily available guns. Tragedies like this one are avoidable. We have to do the right thing and get the guns gone.
12
Why isn't EVERY firearm sold in the U.S. regulated, registered and insured like an automobile? Registering guns should require annual registration renewal, and inspections, and all registered gun owners must submit to a battery of mental health exams in order to receive renewal. Guns should be insured, just like cars are insured, in which the gun owner, if found liable, is responsible for all shooting victim hospitalization costs, funeral costs, property replacement, etc. All guns should also be retrofitted with a key'lock mechanism or a fingerprint sensor in order to be operated. Given all of the effort involved in maintaining their firearm licenses, potential gun owners would think twice before driving to WalMart on a whim to pick up their 2nd, 20th, 200th firearm for their "collection." Nobody can complain that this is impossible to do or that it is too cumbersome because we are already doing this today with cars!
23
Can I have a dollar for everyone of your "shoulds"?
and it makes good business sense! it could turn a profit! Plus insure that gun owners are responsible people... it's common sense... NRA should be for it!
All this is fine, as long as you don't equate mental illness with these horrific shootings. These "mental health exams" could b less than useless, since opinions do (and rightfully so) differ on what mental health is. We just cannot put it down to illness. To my mind, anyone with a gun who uses it is mentally ill, so I don't think these exams are too useful. However, all the rulse and regulations you suggest might make some kind of difference. So let's do it!
A certain percentage of people, across all countries and cultures, are genetically predisposed to serious mental illness. Only in the U.S. is it easy for these people to get access to guns. And that probably accounts for a substantial proportion of our horrific murder rate, compared to other cultures.
15
I saw the video the shooter took, without realizing what I was watching. One thing is clear, no civilian would be able to react and shoot back in the seconds it took for him to massacre two people. Anyone who says the best solution is a good person with a gun clearly does not understand human reaction in a crisis. Even someone trained to react, such as law enforcement and military personnel, would have difficulty diffusing this sort of ambush. I think back to earlier this year in Boston when a plain clothes officer approached a vehicle he pulled over and the driver got out and shot him point blank in the face. Thank goodness his collegues were able to respond.
But, this is 'Murica, so I don't see anything changing as far as sensible gun laws go. Even if common sense laws could not have prevented this, don't the lives of potential victims matter? Even if one less person dies as a result of some sort of sensible waiting period, does that person's life not matter?
As teens text today - SMH
But, this is 'Murica, so I don't see anything changing as far as sensible gun laws go. Even if common sense laws could not have prevented this, don't the lives of potential victims matter? Even if one less person dies as a result of some sort of sensible waiting period, does that person's life not matter?
As teens text today - SMH
10
Another day, another shooter story. Last week was the story about how public lands are now so overrun with shooters that stray bullets are killing campers.
It almost seems that if you don't have a gun you have no rights at all in this country.
And now let's see more of those funny vignettes about how your gun didn't kill anyone all day while you were at work. Those are just so cute.
My apologies for the flippancy and sincere condolences to the families of the victims.
It almost seems that if you don't have a gun you have no rights at all in this country.
And now let's see more of those funny vignettes about how your gun didn't kill anyone all day while you were at work. Those are just so cute.
My apologies for the flippancy and sincere condolences to the families of the victims.
30
"It almost seems that if you don't have a gun you have no rights at all in this country. "
this sort of absurdist, over the top claim does not help.
this sort of absurdist, over the top claim does not help.
Blaming guns for this evil is like blaming the Holocaust on ovens. The real culprit is an ideological fantasy invented by the Left and enshrined in public policy: that most mental illness is really just an alternative life style adopted by free thinkers and nonconformists and suppressed by uptight white conservative males. This Leftist delusion was popularized in the movie "One Flew Over the Cuckoo Nest" starring Jack Nicholson based on the Ken Kesey novel of the same name. This fantasy was implemented as policy resulting in the destruction of America's public mental hospital system and the mass deinstitutionalization of the mentally ill and creating hordes of homeless people living in parks and on the streets (4 out 5 of whom are mentally ill). Of course the Left blamed the homeless problem on Republicans and free enterprise. Another consequence of pretending that mental illness is an alternative life style is the easy access to guns afforded the mentally ill. Not surprisingly, most intentional shootings not involving family members and unrelated to drugs or other organized crime activities are carried out by someone with serious mental illness. Vester Flanagan is just the latest example. Obama could have stopped the madness by measures restricting access to guns by the mentally ill. He didn't do so because it would have substantially reduced gun violence and ended a key political issue to exploit and a dog whistle to Democrats' low information voting base.
We can reduce gun violence. It will take honest dialogue, voter activism, and leaders who care more about their constituents' lives than they fear the NRA.
Short of going "Full Australia" on gun owners, let's start with simple steps that will help keep guns out of the hands of people most likely to cause harm and allow non-criminal gun enthusiasts to use them responsibly. Let's pass a simple set of federal laws to make obtaining and using a gun similar to driving a car — license the user, and register the gun.
Firearm User License:
a. Screen for mental health and criminal background
b. Educate how to handle and store a firearm
c. Test for knowledge and ability (written and practical)
d. Take fingerprint and/or DNA samples
e. Charge license fee — use to mitigate gun-related societal costs
f. Require liability insurance
g. Confer gun-use license with photograph h. Require license to purchase guns or ammunition
Gun Registration:
Each gun is required to have its own unique serial number (like a car's VIN) and registration (like a car's license plate) in order to be in one's possession.
Obviously, this regimen will not eliminate shootings, but at least it would reduce gun violence and catastrophes like Newtown.
Most Americans would welcome this kind of change, even gun owners! To Members of Congress: listen to the majority and don't be cowed by the NRA.
Short of going "Full Australia" on gun owners, let's start with simple steps that will help keep guns out of the hands of people most likely to cause harm and allow non-criminal gun enthusiasts to use them responsibly. Let's pass a simple set of federal laws to make obtaining and using a gun similar to driving a car — license the user, and register the gun.
Firearm User License:
a. Screen for mental health and criminal background
b. Educate how to handle and store a firearm
c. Test for knowledge and ability (written and practical)
d. Take fingerprint and/or DNA samples
e. Charge license fee — use to mitigate gun-related societal costs
f. Require liability insurance
g. Confer gun-use license with photograph h. Require license to purchase guns or ammunition
Gun Registration:
Each gun is required to have its own unique serial number (like a car's VIN) and registration (like a car's license plate) in order to be in one's possession.
Obviously, this regimen will not eliminate shootings, but at least it would reduce gun violence and catastrophes like Newtown.
Most Americans would welcome this kind of change, even gun owners! To Members of Congress: listen to the majority and don't be cowed by the NRA.
23
Each gun is required to have its own unique serial number (like a car's VIN) and registration (like a car's license plate) in order to be in one's possession.
======================
Your ignorance is showing. It's already the law that firearms have serial numbers.
Of course all your other items are non-starters.
If you want to really cut gun homicide rates, you have to stop the deaths from gang bangers in the inner cities where most of the deaths happen. They have illegal guns now and would ignore any registration requirements. You live in Oakland, so you of all people should know this.
If you take those gun deaths out of our statistics, our numbers aren't so much different from Europe.
======================
Your ignorance is showing. It's already the law that firearms have serial numbers.
Of course all your other items are non-starters.
If you want to really cut gun homicide rates, you have to stop the deaths from gang bangers in the inner cities where most of the deaths happen. They have illegal guns now and would ignore any registration requirements. You live in Oakland, so you of all people should know this.
If you take those gun deaths out of our statistics, our numbers aren't so much different from Europe.
None of the items on this list would have prevented this particular murder. If somebody already legally owns a weapon, and suddenly "snaps," it's a done deal.
1
"Each gun is required to have its own unique serial number (like a car's VIN)"
This has been the law since 1968 and t's a felony to possess any gun with an altered, removed or defaced serial number.
This has been the law since 1968 and t's a felony to possess any gun with an altered, removed or defaced serial number.
1
The armaments makers control the discourse and are as indifferent to the shootings, the death and the maiming, as Big Tobacco was to cancer. Just as America is impotent with respect to Big Finance; America is impotent with respect to the gun industry.
42
There are many comments asking why we are so violent. People have had guns - hunting rifles, shot guns - forever, but didn't shoot neighbors to settle grudges, or shoot up schools.
We are a more violent society. There are more of us. And there are more guns. When you start to approach a 1:1 ratio of weapons to population, it seems foolish to ask why so many more people use them. Guns are everywhere. In stores,. In movies. On TV. In games. In theaters, and shopping centers and college campuses. In political speeches. In comments on web sites.
It reminds me of the old experiment in which rats, all crowded together, turned more stressed, more violent, and started to kill each other, turned toward cannibalism. We are starting to act like those rats, only we are better armed.
And so once again, we are called to wish peace and solace to a few more families facing the unbearable.
We are a more violent society. There are more of us. And there are more guns. When you start to approach a 1:1 ratio of weapons to population, it seems foolish to ask why so many more people use them. Guns are everywhere. In stores,. In movies. On TV. In games. In theaters, and shopping centers and college campuses. In political speeches. In comments on web sites.
It reminds me of the old experiment in which rats, all crowded together, turned more stressed, more violent, and started to kill each other, turned toward cannibalism. We are starting to act like those rats, only we are better armed.
And so once again, we are called to wish peace and solace to a few more families facing the unbearable.
31
Good thoughts Cathy. The most pressing issue in the days to come will be personal freedom, liberty and privacy. With everything spinning out of control more and more will decide to give these up and trust in the govt to know when to use the guns (as just one example). Of course, lest we forget that our Govt officials also are Human. O-0
We need an Individual, a world ruler if you will to step in and fix this. A man of peace.
Wait for it!
We need an Individual, a world ruler if you will to step in and fix this. A man of peace.
Wait for it!
We are a more violent society. There are more of us. And there are more guns. When you start to approach a 1:1 ratio of weapons to population, it seems foolish to ask why so many more people use them.
=================
Actually we are NOT a more violent society. Public perceptions of this are just wrong. Your perception is wrong:
Violent Crime Drops to Lowest Level Since 1978
http://time.com/3577026/crime-rates-drop-1970s/
Gun Homicide Rate Down 49% Since 1993 Peak; Public Unaware
http://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2013/05/07/gun-homicide-rate-down-49-sinc...
=================
Actually we are NOT a more violent society. Public perceptions of this are just wrong. Your perception is wrong:
Violent Crime Drops to Lowest Level Since 1978
http://time.com/3577026/crime-rates-drop-1970s/
Gun Homicide Rate Down 49% Since 1993 Peak; Public Unaware
http://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2013/05/07/gun-homicide-rate-down-49-sinc...
1
Plus, how does the US meet every problem on the world stage? What country has the biggest arsenal of every kind of weapon? I think until that changes, we will be stuck in this horrible era of random, killing violence.
It's tragically hilarious how anyone can try to claim the the United States is the "greatest country on earth" when embarrassments like this incident are repeatedly condoned as part of the price of freedom. On the contrary, we are rightfully seen by the civilized world as a third-world cultural backwater.
68
Borrowing Hillary's comment in a different context, you may not be able to change hearts, but you can change the law.
47
...True, but how, exactly, would one go about "changing the law"? And what, pray tell, would this "change of the law" be, exactly? Right now, as far as I know, it's still a crime to murder people, whether it's being broadcast live, or when there are no witnesses around. There are also anti-stalking laws and if this man was posing a credible threat to the TV station from where he was fired, the one in Virginia, the station could've gotten a judge to issue a restraining order, ordering him to be x # of feet/yards away from either their property or, if possible, the employees of said station. Just because we have "laws in place" that are supposed to protect the populace in general, does not mean that someone who's obviously unstable, unpredictable is going to just all of a sudden stop & realize that "oh my, killing people is wrong & a big crime, so I'd better just change my plans...." - expecting a person like this to take heed of any existing laws or, god forbid, any new, unnecessary laws, is, itself, irrational and is not reasonable as it would merely be a quick, knee-jerk reaction to something, just happened, as horrible as it was and it's very sad this happened. But, as a country, collectively, I would have thought that, as Americans, we'd have learned a thing or 2 about reactionary, after-the-fact "laws" which won't do anything except erect barriers for everyone else but won't stop anyone who is mentally deranged &/or bent on spreading mayhem and death.
She changes the law alright...
This is not what the founding fathers had in mind. That's for certain. Something must be done.
47
I know many of the comments have focused on guns and gun control.
I'd like to understand "why so many deeply troubled and disturbed people who feel compelled to act with extreme violence?" Are these people and/or their families not getting the help they need? Instead of just focusing on the instrument of his wrath, I'd like to understand why we seem to have more and more depraved people in the US and World.
I'd like to understand "why so many deeply troubled and disturbed people who feel compelled to act with extreme violence?" Are these people and/or their families not getting the help they need? Instead of just focusing on the instrument of his wrath, I'd like to understand why we seem to have more and more depraved people in the US and World.
9
We cannot possibly keep guns out of the hands of all deranged persons. The solution has to do with the availability of guns. Plain and simple. If we want to make guns available because of the importance of recreation or defense, let's be prepared to lose many more shooting victims.
I live in a state that has tough anti-gun laws, and althought guns still come into my state from states that permit almost everyone to own guns, I am happy to sacrifice my right to own guns.
I really do not believe I have a right under the Second Amendment to own a gun; if I am wrong, I have a right to own a musket because that is what was available in the 18th century,
But I am pleased that the public policy of my state is to ban guns. I am safer because guns are banned in my state. I'd be even safer if other states would do the same so that guns obtained elsewhere are not brought into my home state.
I live in a state that has tough anti-gun laws, and althought guns still come into my state from states that permit almost everyone to own guns, I am happy to sacrifice my right to own guns.
I really do not believe I have a right under the Second Amendment to own a gun; if I am wrong, I have a right to own a musket because that is what was available in the 18th century,
But I am pleased that the public policy of my state is to ban guns. I am safer because guns are banned in my state. I'd be even safer if other states would do the same so that guns obtained elsewhere are not brought into my home state.
Could it have something to do with the country's approach to problems in the Middle East and everywhere else in the world? At least, we could pass the Iran Deal--that would be a change of pace. Ordinarily the US approaches every problem, national and international, with violence (or with prison, which is also quite violent). Nice role model for our citizens.
I appreciate that you want to sacrifice your right to a gun. I happen not to own a gun but I'm not prepared to give away any of my rights regardless of whether I happen to use them.
I find it funny that you say "we cannot keep guns out of the hands of all deranged persons" but find it easier to try and ban all guns. Everywhere. I think that's a lot tougher to do.
I find it funny that you say "we cannot keep guns out of the hands of all deranged persons" but find it easier to try and ban all guns. Everywhere. I think that's a lot tougher to do.
1
Donald Trump keeps talking about repealing the 14th Amendment. How about taking a look at the 2nd?
34
"Donald Trump keeps talking about repealing the 14th Amendment. How about taking a look at the 2nd?"
The 2nd Amendment is not the problem, it's the hijacked definition of "right to bear arms." Obviously, the authors meant no such interpretation that we have today.
The 2nd Amendment is not the problem, it's the hijacked definition of "right to bear arms." Obviously, the authors meant no such interpretation that we have today.
1
Trump never called for repealing the 14th Amendment, that is a rank distortion put out by left-wingers.
Another sad day in America. I don't know how many more innocent lives will be sacrificed before guns are banned in this country.
My message to all the gun lovers and Second Amendment upholders;- "Develop compassion and let go off this maddening love for gun rights." It's doing more harm in society, than good. If you are a person of "faith" (Christian) and still support gun rights, think deeply about what Christ preached! Christ preached love, compassion and peace!
Human life is precious! We need to ban guns to protect innocent lives.
If an intoxicated driver drives and kills people, then driving under the influence becomes Illegal. Same way, if a guy buys a gun and kills people, then buying a gun should be illegal too.
My message to all the gun lovers and Second Amendment upholders;- "Develop compassion and let go off this maddening love for gun rights." It's doing more harm in society, than good. If you are a person of "faith" (Christian) and still support gun rights, think deeply about what Christ preached! Christ preached love, compassion and peace!
Human life is precious! We need to ban guns to protect innocent lives.
If an intoxicated driver drives and kills people, then driving under the influence becomes Illegal. Same way, if a guy buys a gun and kills people, then buying a gun should be illegal too.
13
If you are a person of "faith" (Christian) and still support gun rights, think deeply about what Christ preached! Christ preached love, compassion and peace!
=================
Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword.
For I came to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law;
and a man’s enemies will be the members of his household.
Matthew 10:34-36
=================
Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword.
For I came to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law;
and a man’s enemies will be the members of his household.
Matthew 10:34-36
1
America values guns more than lives. More than children, even. Guns above everything. Disgusting, sick society. You'd say, oh, but we're not all like that, it's just a bunch of crazy people... But then I'd ask, if it's just a bunch of nutjobs and the rest of you are alright, then WHY do the nutjobs call the shots? Why does the country run their way? Why is this ridiculousness still allowed to happen, after all the death and statistics, after all these years? For this to be allowed to happen, it means that either the majority of Americans are crazy gun-loving heartless monsters, or that if they're not, then they have no voice, no power and no balls to change anything, so they allow the "crazy gun-loving minority" to have it their way, indefinitely. Seriously. For nobody to be able to make a dent of a change means that either you're all monsters, or you're all wimps. There's no other way. A truly horrified, concerned society would've acted on this long, long ago. Pathetic country.
81
The concept of this country was that we, as individuals, bear the responsibility (and right) of national defense and self-defense. Under this paradigm, we have to accept incidents like this as a cost of individual responsibility.
The root has nothing to do with callousness or nut-jobbery (although there are plenty of those), it has to do with protecting the right of self-determination in the face of society as a conglomerate.
Perfect safety is only available in perfectly controlled societies.
The root has nothing to do with callousness or nut-jobbery (although there are plenty of those), it has to do with protecting the right of self-determination in the face of society as a conglomerate.
Perfect safety is only available in perfectly controlled societies.
1
Because America is no longer a Democracy, OR a Republic. We are an Oligarchy, bound inextricably to the" Corporations who are People," who take our politicians on pleasure filled junkets and coerce them with PAC's to finance their elections. You and I can't hope to compete with billionaires who call the shots. Unless there is a real awakening in this country, this won't be the last tragedy at the hands of a madman. You can bank on that.
Because the Constitution and the method to change it are all messed up. it was the first try at such a document and an over reaction to concentrated national (then monarchial) power. It has a poison pill against amendment without near-universal approval. But any change will need to be radical because a partial change could result in worse results outside of gun regulation than our current situation.
I am 74 years old and black ... all my life accusations of racism have been denied by white people...and I have experienced subtle and overt racism my entire life. Most if not all black people walk around with "black rage." Even with the police around the country literally gunning down and killing unarmed, defenseless black people in the street (not to be confused with criminals with guns who come in all ethnicities), white people still deny the existence of racism. Not to defend this killer, who I hope dies so his crime will climb out of the headlines, but a black man with an education enough to be a television news reporter, would not be so angry as to blatantly gun down two of his colleagues, were there no basis of racism to his actions. The difference in these stories and accusations are whether you are white and haven't a clue what racism really feels like in every nook and cranny of your awareness, or you are black and this action elicits more emotional responses than you will ever know.
174
There are plenty of angry, oppressed people of all walks of life around the world who do not pick up guns and shoot people. As long as there is an excuse that others will defend, there will be gun violence.
9
You're talking out of both sides of your mouth. You're saying there's no defense for this killer, yet it's the fault of his racist employer and colleagues that he acted this way. You are disgusting.
9
or maybe he was simply a mentally ill person.
5
Some commenters are claiming that this incident disproves "A good guy with a gun can defend against a bad guy with a gun." (paraphrase) After all even if the reporter was armed they would have had little chance.
Actually that is not the argument. Just a good demonstration of poor reading comprehension. The argument is that (usually) the ONLY ones who can stop a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun. (With the exception of very lucky cases like when that terrorists gun jammed on the train.)
Let's use this case as an example. If a bystander was armed, or an armed policeman was in the vicinity there would have been at least a chance to stop the gunmen. If no one was armed that chance goes down dramatically.
Do some research into the phenomenon of tractor terrorists in Israel. Israel is full of settlers, and off duty soldiers with guns. Walk down any street in downtown Jerusalem and you'll probably see someone with a gun. The Palestinians extremists use tractors, cars, whatever is handy to run over and crush many Israeli kids, babies, etc. that they can find hanging out a bus stop. Often these attacks are stopped by an armed settler or bystander in the vicinity. (Read the reports) Without a proliferation of good guys with guns these attacks would be much worse.
On the other hand, it makes gun legality makes them more accessible to criminals. True. That is where the debate is, but don't misquote the argument.
Actually that is not the argument. Just a good demonstration of poor reading comprehension. The argument is that (usually) the ONLY ones who can stop a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun. (With the exception of very lucky cases like when that terrorists gun jammed on the train.)
Let's use this case as an example. If a bystander was armed, or an armed policeman was in the vicinity there would have been at least a chance to stop the gunmen. If no one was armed that chance goes down dramatically.
Do some research into the phenomenon of tractor terrorists in Israel. Israel is full of settlers, and off duty soldiers with guns. Walk down any street in downtown Jerusalem and you'll probably see someone with a gun. The Palestinians extremists use tractors, cars, whatever is handy to run over and crush many Israeli kids, babies, etc. that they can find hanging out a bus stop. Often these attacks are stopped by an armed settler or bystander in the vicinity. (Read the reports) Without a proliferation of good guys with guns these attacks would be much worse.
On the other hand, it makes gun legality makes them more accessible to criminals. True. That is where the debate is, but don't misquote the argument.
4
I'm seem to recall, just a couple of days ago, two unarmed Americans stopping a shooter on the French train. Alas, it does not reinforce Jack M's world view, so he has conveniently forgotten.
This is nonsense. Israel has pretty stringent gun laws. You have to demonstrate a need for having a gun, you have to have a license, and this license has to be renewed annually. Nobody with a criminal conviction or record of mental illness will get a license. When you go into a mall or a restaurant, there would be an armed guard who checks that your license is current if you are carrying a weapon. There is no conceal-carry. Of course, soldiers on active duty often carry their guns and there have been cases of them stopping terrorists. So this is well-regulated militia for you!
1
@Jack M: Ridiculous... about the time someone with a gun shoots, there's usually some courageous person or persons who stop the shooter... and they don't have a gun. The shooter is tackled, as in the Arizona's Gabby Gifford shooting (by a little old lady) or on the train in Paris (three guys).
Shooting a gun in a crowded area inevitably could lead to other innocents inadvertently killed or wounded.
Stop the talk about the need for more guns. Even the Wild West recognized the need for everyone to stop carrying firearms if the west was to become civilized.
Shooting a gun in a crowded area inevitably could lead to other innocents inadvertently killed or wounded.
Stop the talk about the need for more guns. Even the Wild West recognized the need for everyone to stop carrying firearms if the west was to become civilized.
We may have the right to bear arms but that doesn't mean that we necessarily have the right to use them. And why should having that right be so easy, without adequate and thorough mental examinations, registrations, and taxes? How is it significantly different than taxing alcohol or cigarettes? I'm hoping that someday some brave reporters, brave politicians, and brave news organizations show up and stand up and start asking the very hard questions, challenging the status quo, and inciting a deep and profound conversation on this issue and related issues and holding voices like the NRA accountable to the public good?
18
Guns are already taxed, similarly to cigarettes and alcohol.
Educate yourself before you hurt your cause further.
Educate yourself before you hurt your cause further.
I am so sick of reading about these stories. The lives lost. Families destroyed. Communities shocked. But yet we do nothing about the underlying problem: the fact that there are 300 million guns in the United States, a nation with extremely lax gun laws and a vastly under-resourced mental health field.
I think we would all agree that the first clause of the second amendment ("A well-regulated militia") has simply outlived its usefulness. We don't have militias to defend the peace or keep the government in check.
We need to reasonably construe the second amendment to permit gun control, to limit the ownership of firearms to the right of self defense and to prevent guns from falling into the hands of the dangerously mentally-ill.
Look at the reality in a common sense way: it cannot be a coincidence that the easy availability of firearms in our country has nothing to do with high murder rates and frequent shooting headlines.
I think we would all agree that the first clause of the second amendment ("A well-regulated militia") has simply outlived its usefulness. We don't have militias to defend the peace or keep the government in check.
We need to reasonably construe the second amendment to permit gun control, to limit the ownership of firearms to the right of self defense and to prevent guns from falling into the hands of the dangerously mentally-ill.
Look at the reality in a common sense way: it cannot be a coincidence that the easy availability of firearms in our country has nothing to do with high murder rates and frequent shooting headlines.
28
100% agreed, but we will have to wait until we have a white male President, unfortunately. Obama instigating any change whatsoever in our gun laws would result in the 2nd Civil War. There are an awful lot of angry, angry angry people in the South, and as I am sure you know, they despise this man, calling him any number of names. Just go to the comments sections of any FoxNews.com article on: Obama, Hillary, the Election, race relations, white cops, black victims of white cops, etc. It's truly disgusting and proof that racism is certainly alive and well in this country.
1
The right for an individual to have a lethal means of defense available to him is a principle not based on the size of our military, or how many cops we have. The concept of America is one of the rights of the individual over those of the state--including the right of self-defense. Tragedies like the one under discussion are a cost of that right, and perpetrators (if they survive) will and must be punished; but the right must live on.
These shootings are going to keep happening, over and over and over again. Until we acknowledge our collective responsibility for putting adequate, sensible controls on gun ownership and availability in the US, we will continue to be presented with this lesson, again and again. The steady barrage of gun murders in America is a test of our moral and political will. So far, we are flunking.
24
It's like a lottery. We know someone will be shot every day, and we just go on hoping it won't be us. When will we do something to stop it?
31
My sympathy to the folks who lost their loved ones today. And prayers for the lady who was shot in the back.
Folks, it isn't about guns but mental health. The shooter cannot be right in the head. He could have used a knife or ran over them with a vehicle in the parking lot......whatever. The gun didn't decide to shoot someone, the shooter did. Quit blaming the gun. It's ludicrous.
Folks, it isn't about guns but mental health. The shooter cannot be right in the head. He could have used a knife or ran over them with a vehicle in the parking lot......whatever. The gun didn't decide to shoot someone, the shooter did. Quit blaming the gun. It's ludicrous.
87
Funny how other developed countries have similar levels of mental health issues, but much lower gun ownership and magically they have much lower homicide rates. Do you think there might be a correlation? I wonder why this would be....let me think...
6
Yours is the most dangerous logic of all, unfortunately. Could he have run them over with is car? Yes, albeit it would be far more difficult to drive a car onto a pier or bay promenade than to carry a gun onto one. However, cars, while capable of killing, have as their purpose something other than killing, whereas guns have one purpose, and one only: to kill.
Just look at worldwide gun ownership stats and murder rates. They are indelibly connected: the higher the gun ownership rate, the higher the murder rate. This is a fact. By your logic, it would follow that we have a higher murder rate in the US because we have higher rates of mental disorders, when in fact the mental sickness rate in the US is comparable to that of other countries.
Based on this line of thinking, one conclusion can be drawn: gun murder rates are highest where guns are most prevalent. End of story.
I encourage you to disagree with me and tell me how I am wrong on this. I am open to your comments.
Just look at worldwide gun ownership stats and murder rates. They are indelibly connected: the higher the gun ownership rate, the higher the murder rate. This is a fact. By your logic, it would follow that we have a higher murder rate in the US because we have higher rates of mental disorders, when in fact the mental sickness rate in the US is comparable to that of other countries.
Based on this line of thinking, one conclusion can be drawn: gun murder rates are highest where guns are most prevalent. End of story.
I encourage you to disagree with me and tell me how I am wrong on this. I am open to your comments.
6
11,000 annual gun homicides in the US. 32,000 gun deaths. Nah. It's not the guns.
7
Unless you think you can get the 2d Amendment repealed, here's a thought.
If you can ban firearms like machine guns and automatic assault weapons by legislation without running afoul of the 2d amendment, which has been done, why can't the country legislatively ban handguns? That would leave single shot long barrel weapons like rifles and shotguns legal and you'd have a 2d A. right to bear those unless you're a convicted felon or have a serious mental problem. Rifles are still bad in urban areas [hunting deer on Broadway, are we?], but its a start.
I see no reason why ANYBODY except police and the military needs a hand gun. I'm not really anti-gun, but this is getting ridiculous.
If you can ban firearms like machine guns and automatic assault weapons by legislation without running afoul of the 2d amendment, which has been done, why can't the country legislatively ban handguns? That would leave single shot long barrel weapons like rifles and shotguns legal and you'd have a 2d A. right to bear those unless you're a convicted felon or have a serious mental problem. Rifles are still bad in urban areas [hunting deer on Broadway, are we?], but its a start.
I see no reason why ANYBODY except police and the military needs a hand gun. I'm not really anti-gun, but this is getting ridiculous.
13
Have we given up? It seems that we have. When absolutely nothing was done after Sandy Hook, we all sort of sensed that it was game over. We should prepare ourselves for this as simply a normal part of our daily lives.
22
No, we haven't given up. Every day more and more Americans are getting fed up as gun owners increasingly use firearms to kill their "enemies." It is going to take a decade at least before real, effective, gun laws get passed, but it will happen. Sadly, that won't be soon enough for thousands of innocent future victims.
Sadly, I agree with you. If the slaughter of 20 cherubic, innocent, trusting, white children wasn't enough to make the nation make significant changes about access to guns, I can't think of any gun-driven horror that will change the nation's attitude. Yes, like many Americans, I grew up in a home in which there were several guns, a pistol, a rifle and a shotgun. I knew that I was not to touch them without supervision. Yes, we have an inadequate system for treating mental health victims but it seems that there is an overarching anger pervading many of our citizens today who seem to believe the only appropriate response to offense, no matter how small, is to shoot someone down in cold blood.
2
It seems to me that businesses should have the right to determine from their local police whether job applicants or employees have been issued gun permits.
9
It is the fallout of the deadly combination free gun availability and the alarming decline in mental illness in America. One without the other would not have been the cause of alarm.
Mental illness plays a huge role — at least 90 percent of people who die by suicide have a diagnosable mental disorder, according to the American Foundation for Suicide Prevention (AFSP).
Several reputed peer reviewed papers have linked the quality of the air we breathe directly affects mental health, our state of mind can be easily affected by air pollution. The specific mix of chemicals and contaminants, which are found in the largest amount of any given source of air pollution, is of critical importance, as is the concentration of those airborne pollutants. Some chemicals can have significantly more impact on the brain and mental health than others.
Yes, tackling the pollution might be a protracted affair, but very effective remedy is to control the easy availability to the access fire arms.
But as the top commentator said if "Who cares? Our guns are more important than your lives" prevails, there can be more of the horrifying violence.
Non American world is incredulous that the tail of NRA is allowed to wag the body of a great nation!!
Mental illness plays a huge role — at least 90 percent of people who die by suicide have a diagnosable mental disorder, according to the American Foundation for Suicide Prevention (AFSP).
Several reputed peer reviewed papers have linked the quality of the air we breathe directly affects mental health, our state of mind can be easily affected by air pollution. The specific mix of chemicals and contaminants, which are found in the largest amount of any given source of air pollution, is of critical importance, as is the concentration of those airborne pollutants. Some chemicals can have significantly more impact on the brain and mental health than others.
Yes, tackling the pollution might be a protracted affair, but very effective remedy is to control the easy availability to the access fire arms.
But as the top commentator said if "Who cares? Our guns are more important than your lives" prevails, there can be more of the horrifying violence.
Non American world is incredulous that the tail of NRA is allowed to wag the body of a great nation!!
5
I have a private link to the video of the shooting which was made available to professional journalists. I have not watched it and I will not be sharing that link with anyone. I have heard that CNN has been running this video or clips from the video repeatedly, which strikes me, as a first reaction, as very unfortunate, perhaps disgusting. Of course, the news media run disturbing video clips all the time, so I assume that many believe there should be no special exception for one of our own. If there is some value in having your view of the world shaken to the core by watching, then perhaps it will ultimately help our society. We can hope.
This hits really close to home. My wife is a writer and producer at a local television station and I too once worked in local news in Dallas. The idea that someone has lost a young daughter of 24 and another family has lost a son of 27 is shocking and upsetting beyond ordinary words. The other victims must be mourned, too.
I suppose we will have to wait only a few hours for the NRA to claim that had the reporter and cameraman been armed, they could have stopped the gunman. Not likely. People who are not in the military or police forces are not trained in how to handle weapons and they don't generally have the ability to switch instantly from a peaceful environment to one of extreme violence. Guns are not the answer to guns.
We have a contagion of violence and we must look to every source to alter the ugly course our nation is on. Now.
This hits really close to home. My wife is a writer and producer at a local television station and I too once worked in local news in Dallas. The idea that someone has lost a young daughter of 24 and another family has lost a son of 27 is shocking and upsetting beyond ordinary words. The other victims must be mourned, too.
I suppose we will have to wait only a few hours for the NRA to claim that had the reporter and cameraman been armed, they could have stopped the gunman. Not likely. People who are not in the military or police forces are not trained in how to handle weapons and they don't generally have the ability to switch instantly from a peaceful environment to one of extreme violence. Guns are not the answer to guns.
We have a contagion of violence and we must look to every source to alter the ugly course our nation is on. Now.
33
"Guns are not the answer to guns."
And neither is selective amnesia to black on black violence. But as a reporter not writing about reality is what YOU do.
And neither is selective amnesia to black on black violence. But as a reporter not writing about reality is what YOU do.
I hesitate to say this because it emphatically is NOT a call to arms, but my comment is this: When shooters start mowing down the plutocrats, guns will be controlled.
27
Bill Appledorf said: "I hesitate to say this because it emphatically is NOT a call to arms, but my comment is this: When shooters start mowing down the plutocrats, guns will be controlled."
Politicians do not regulate guns even when they are the target of the gun violence. Guns have been killing (or attempting to kill) politicians for years. Abraham Lincoln, James Garfield, William McKinley John F. Kennedy, Robert Kennedy, Martin Luther King, Harvey Milk, George Moscone, Ronald Reagan, Gabby Giffords, the list goes on.
And there's John Lennon, gunned down on a New York city street.
Think about it. The easy availability of guns has robbed us of some of our best presidents and world figures. How would world history be different if we had sensible gun laws in this country?
Politicians do not regulate guns even when they are the target of the gun violence. Guns have been killing (or attempting to kill) politicians for years. Abraham Lincoln, James Garfield, William McKinley John F. Kennedy, Robert Kennedy, Martin Luther King, Harvey Milk, George Moscone, Ronald Reagan, Gabby Giffords, the list goes on.
And there's John Lennon, gunned down on a New York city street.
Think about it. The easy availability of guns has robbed us of some of our best presidents and world figures. How would world history be different if we had sensible gun laws in this country?
KH:
I said plutocrats not politicians. Politicians today work for the uber rich and are from their employers' perspective expendable. Consider this: The only Wall Street fraudster to go to jail is Bernie Madoff. Why? Because he stole from the 1%. Do not hurt the 1% is the one inviolable rule in today's world.
I said plutocrats not politicians. Politicians today work for the uber rich and are from their employers' perspective expendable. Consider this: The only Wall Street fraudster to go to jail is Bernie Madoff. Why? Because he stole from the 1%. Do not hurt the 1% is the one inviolable rule in today's world.
All the usual stuff about the NRA ruling the world and if we had no guns bad things wouldn't happen to good people. The NRA is a relatively small organization and is not all the well funded. The gun laws are not changed because the majority of Americans (according to the polls) don't want them changed.
There is a huge cultural gulf between urban people and people who live in areas where firearms are traditional. Talk the hunters and farmers into joining you and you might get somewhere, but keep calling them crazies and you will continue to get nowhere.
There is a huge cultural gulf between urban people and people who live in areas where firearms are traditional. Talk the hunters and farmers into joining you and you might get somewhere, but keep calling them crazies and you will continue to get nowhere.
9
the NRA is a huge organization in relation to INFLUENCE
they are always happy when this happens because it helps with fund raising
they are always happy when this happens because it helps with fund raising
Actually, many polls show that people DO want gun laws changed.
When did you hear that the NRA is poorly funded? You're kidding, right? They own Congress on this issue. 90% of the public want more gun control.
When did you hear that the NRA is poorly funded? You're kidding, right? They own Congress on this issue. 90% of the public want more gun control.
1
Sorry to disappoint. According to Gallup only 28% of Americans are dissatisfied with present gun laws. The NRA spends about $2 million on lobbying and they don't even make the top twenty The US Chamber of Commerce spends spends just under $43 million on the AMA $19.5 million.
Too many people pushing gun control are ineffective because they don't live in the land of reality and refuse to face inconvenient facts.
Too many people pushing gun control are ineffective because they don't live in the land of reality and refuse to face inconvenient facts.
I would very much like to hear -- today -- what the Republican and Democratic presidential hopefuls would do about guns. Specifics. No treading water, no thoughts and prayers for the victims and we’ll get back to you. No we have the laws, they just need to be enforced, because obviously that ain’t going to happen. No mental health arguments because, what, you’re going to evaluate everybody every year? I hope reporters ask the question, and then ask it again and again, until they respond with specifics, or turn tail. I am absolutely certain they all have well-formed thoughts on the issue. If they think everybody should carry a gun and we’ll shoot it out, well, just say it. Then we’ll know. But the time for the “conversation” is over. Way over. Like, schoolchildren over. So let’s get it on the record. Specifics. Today.
48
Don't hold your breath, Alan... none of the presidential hopefuls wants to alienate the foaming-at-the-mouth constitutencies who believe that God Himself gave them the right to own a gun no matter who gets hurt.
We have the laws on the books, but they are not enforced. Look at NYC, the current mayor ran on banning "stop & frisk." That worked out really well, or did it?
How long, seriously, how long can we pretend that unregulated access to guns is not a problem in the US? In order for me to RENEW my drivers license in the state of NJ (which I have had since 1976), I have to show six different points of ID. Shouldn't purchasing a gun and ammunition be at least as rigorous? My co-worker told me she was in her kitchen making lunch at 11:30am and heard gunshots not far from her home (she lives in an urban area). In her kitchen making lunch!!! On a Sunday. Seriously, how long?
64
Spot-on. Where is the rage? Are we really any more civilized than the people we see committing atrocities elsewhere.?
1
After Sandy Hook I thought for sure the nation would rally and act to curb gun violence.
I was wrong.
This devastating reality changed me forever: I realized I live in a country that doesn't even care if little innocent children get shot and killed to say nothing of moviegoers, churchgoers... or newscasters.
I was wrong.
This devastating reality changed me forever: I realized I live in a country that doesn't even care if little innocent children get shot and killed to say nothing of moviegoers, churchgoers... or newscasters.
86
I must not have paid close attention to my high school civics class. But I simply do not understand why we cannot have a national vote on banishing private gun ownership (i.e. amending the Constitution). We have a national election for president. Laws are created by PEOPLE to fundamentally facilitate civilized behavior among PEOPLE. Our laws are facilitating daily bloodbaths. (Here in Chicago we had a dozen shootings and three resultant deaths in the 24 hours preceding this writing. Just a typical summer day here.)
At what point are we going to enable civilization a better chance of surviving in America?
At what point are we going to enable civilization a better chance of surviving in America?
30
But, how do you fit that square peg into the round hole of the current administration ignoring laws that are already on the books???
You're a Nytwyt if you don't realize that Chicago has a gun ban, yet has one of the highest gun violence rates in the country (along with other cities with similar bans). Yet you think making the rest of the US like Chicago will improve things? And all the criminals will obey the ban like they do in Chicago???
Ken Nyt, you ask at what point? Who knows how high has the bar been set, what is the number that would trigger a revolution by fed up citizens, sufficiently fed up to get politicians to pay attention and bring down the NRA - let's see, maybe 60,000 gunshot deaths in one year might do it... but probably I'm being optimistic.
1
Clearly this incident illustrates the need for more guns in every setting, and unfettered access to concealed handguns for people with clinically sever anger issues. If everyone in the room had had a gun, then just think how much safer the situation would have been.
9
Sarcasm is risky here. I fear the NRA will count you as their supporter.
2
Oh yes, Jaydee, just think - of course the shooter would have had plenty of time to kill before someone reacted and pulled out his/her gun, so perhaps the killer would have been killed right away, or maybe all the armed persons could have been shooting in panic and injured someone else with stray bullets... gee, that sounds like fun, like a day at the OK Corral!! Those were the good ol' days, weren't they? The daily shootouts in the saloon.... a Boot Hill every one or two miles.... daily contests to see who has the fastest trigger finger... makes you want to go out a buy a ten-gallon-hat and some awesome spurs, don't it though.
Whatever happened to the 7 second delay? I was once under the impression that the the old networks protected themselves from broadcasting accidental cursing with 4 letter words , slips of the tongue, unzipped flys or similar problems by feeding the broadcast with a delay allowing the "censor" to intervene and hold the tape up for a few seconds. I guess like canned laughter and lip synced rock 'n' roll, another weird but useful to someone, for some godforsaken reason, idea has hit the nitrate film dust.
1
Two people were shot and you are worried about the delay? I'm fairly certain that is still used in some instances - but obviously not all. Canned delay or not two people died. Maybe seeing people shot on the news is just what this country needs to wake up.
I am not trying to be provocative or even cynical about this tragedy but I am truly surprised that some posters seem to think this is anything other than a typical day in America. Sure, the FB posting and having this happen live on TV are new twists, but other than that, this barely even qualifies as news, it is such a common occurance. I am in complete agreement with those who would have us write to our legislators, march for gun control laws and mental health services but if first graders gunned down in their classroom, or worshipers gunned down in their church haven't changed anything, I seriously doubt this will either. Face it, America -- this is who we are, nothing is going to change.
31
So it looks like the area of designer body armor is the field to go into since this latest incident of obscene gun violence is not going to have any more effect on our national cowardice on gun control than all the other mass killings.
12
The United States is a culture based on violence of all sorts. And sadly, there are so many people who find this an admirable quality. Justified at every turn, our society is fast becoming pathologically depraved. At least the President has shown his frustration at the powers who enable this state of affairs only to be met with an indifference that is shocking.
28
The world is that way....wake up and get a CCW.
Change will only come when red state constituencies put enough pressure on their legislators and force them to back a repeal of the 2nd amendment. Sad to say that will take a long, long time and many more needless killings.
11
If the 2nd Amendment were repealed, the U.S. would quickly become a fascist state run by oligarchs. You need to live in Russia for a while. That air around Yale must be getting to you.
Not red-state blue state. The gun reforms proposed after Newtown had near universal support and still didn't pass.
Given similar gun violence by terminated employees returning to their former workplace with murder on their minds, it would seem prudent for management to learn more humane ways of firing people and to provide counseling and followup. Losing a job is a traumatic experience and some of those terminated have killed themselves or gone after their bosses. There needs to be national conversation on this subject with more leadership from the Labor Department and the White House.
7
Even the best counseling and outplacement programs, as provided by many employers, will not compensate for mental illness or instability. The national conversation we need to have is how to responsibly regulate guns and to keep them out of the hands of the mentally ill and the violent.
8
J - that sounds great, but I wonder how many perpetrators are identified as being mentally ill only AFTER the incident.
1
The station knew the perpetrator, having fired him, and you have to wonder if they tried to get him counseling for his outbursts of anger and some kind of job placement. Management at the station has much to answer for in this horrific incident, including the gunman's charge of racism.
Just another day in America folks...
18
The liberal narrative is gun culture as aided and abetted by the NRA. As narratives go, it's not bad. America, however, as a culture of guns and grievances. Like so many cold blooded killers, Williams was a grievant -- specifically, one of racial discrimination in the workplace. Discrimination victims do not have a license to kill. Otherwise, we descend to race war.
As for the BLM narrative, I can only say that these two young lives mattered. If that makes me a racist, I wear the mantle.
As for the BLM narrative, I can only say that these two young lives mattered. If that makes me a racist, I wear the mantle.
17
Gun violence is not going to stop until the average citizen/voter takes action. If you are outraged, contact your US representative and your US senator and ask them to co-sponsor and vote for HR 1217 (a bill to expand background checks and to strengthen the National Instant Criminal Background Check System), support gun control actions within your state, and donate to gun control lobbying groups like the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence. Then promote it all on social media. We need more activism!
17
Is anyone in the U.S. surprised anymore? With so many guns and so many films and shows featuring gun violence, fantasy and reality have merged.
18
Someone recently commented to me that she would be afraid to travel much overseas due to "terrorism." My reply to her: we are faced with a form of domestic terrorism every single day in this country which is awash in essentially unregulated guns owned by people who are mentally ill, rage-filled, sociopathic, violent, and/or grossly negligent. Over 30,000 Americans died last year from guns. Americans are more than 20 times likely to die from gun violence than citizens of other civilized countries.
We do not have to live like this - it is beyond sad and pathetic that the NRA and its apologists have gained the upper hand. I don't want to live in a country where within a matter of days we have seen reports, not only of this tragedy, but also of a kid holding other students hostage in school with his gun, of a kid negligently shooting another student when playing with a loaded gun in his backpack, and of numerous acts of domestic violence and murder committed with guns.
Although I support gun safety and regulation organizations and write my representatives, it seems pointless. What will it take for those in power to say, "Enough. We don't need or want to live like this"?
We do not have to live like this - it is beyond sad and pathetic that the NRA and its apologists have gained the upper hand. I don't want to live in a country where within a matter of days we have seen reports, not only of this tragedy, but also of a kid holding other students hostage in school with his gun, of a kid negligently shooting another student when playing with a loaded gun in his backpack, and of numerous acts of domestic violence and murder committed with guns.
Although I support gun safety and regulation organizations and write my representatives, it seems pointless. What will it take for those in power to say, "Enough. We don't need or want to live like this"?
35
Dear J.,
Sorry but statistically you're a bit off the mark. Over 30,000 Americans died from guns last year, it's true, but over 2/3 of those were suicides, harming only themselves. We are always at risk of suicide from ourselves whether we have guns or not. Guns have not killed nearly as many people as cars, and of course less than 1/20th of what heart disease and strokes kill every year.
So if you're worried about Americans dying, eliminating fast food and other unhealthy foods would save hundreds of thousands a year. Working on mental health treatment to prevent suicides would save most of the gun deaths and the other 20 to 30,000 suicides yearly. Guns are really not a major cause of death in America.
And when it comes right down to it, there are far too many humans, so I don't think saving human lives should be a top priority anymore.
Sorry but statistically you're a bit off the mark. Over 30,000 Americans died from guns last year, it's true, but over 2/3 of those were suicides, harming only themselves. We are always at risk of suicide from ourselves whether we have guns or not. Guns have not killed nearly as many people as cars, and of course less than 1/20th of what heart disease and strokes kill every year.
So if you're worried about Americans dying, eliminating fast food and other unhealthy foods would save hundreds of thousands a year. Working on mental health treatment to prevent suicides would save most of the gun deaths and the other 20 to 30,000 suicides yearly. Guns are really not a major cause of death in America.
And when it comes right down to it, there are far too many humans, so I don't think saving human lives should be a top priority anymore.
A roomful of school children were murdered in CT and we didn't hold the members of Congress who are beholden to the gun lobby, aka the NRA, accountable for allowing guns to dominate our country. I doubt that even seeing three people cut down on TV by a guy with a gun will move the needle on this issue.
We are not an "exceptional" nation -- we are nation controlled by big money interests and that includes the gun manufacturers who place the well being of human beings below that of the inadequate people who need a gun in their hand in order to feel like men. Shameful.
We are not an "exceptional" nation -- we are nation controlled by big money interests and that includes the gun manufacturers who place the well being of human beings below that of the inadequate people who need a gun in their hand in order to feel like men. Shameful.
75
I find this to be one of the most disturbing shooting incidents yet -- the shooter actually filmed this while he did it. These shootings are becoming a phenomenon -- some new 21st century psychosis eating its way through our society, one high profile, weekly incident at a time. And hundreds of shootings that receive little attention at all.
It's also disturbing because it's becoming ever clearer that nothing about US gun laws will change, except probably to allow more open carry in more places. I already find myself avoiding shopping malls -- my sister was in a mall a few years ago when a shooting took place in Portland, OR, and had to run out -- and thinking twice about movie theatres. I hate to say this, but I expect everyone in America will someday be carrying a gun for self-protection....
It's also disturbing because it's becoming ever clearer that nothing about US gun laws will change, except probably to allow more open carry in more places. I already find myself avoiding shopping malls -- my sister was in a mall a few years ago when a shooting took place in Portland, OR, and had to run out -- and thinking twice about movie theatres. I hate to say this, but I expect everyone in America will someday be carrying a gun for self-protection....
10
I understand your concerns about shopping malls, movie theatres, etc. but open carry in public places is only part of the problem. Here in Colorado someone has been driving up and down I-25 all summer shooting at other drivers, killing a few, wounding others. In one instance this person -- assuming it's the same person -- shot and killed a 78 year old man walking his dog on a residential street. In Chicago an 8 year old girl sleeping in her own bed was shot and killed by a bullet coming through her window. There simply are no safe places anymore.
1
If the mass killing of children at Sandy Hook did nothing to change our gun laws, then sadly this incidence will not either. Ask a conservative politician what it will take to protect us from the gun violence? Bet they have no logical answer. And they are the ones in charge of protecting society?
28
When such a desicable crime is committed in the well of the Senate rather than an on TV or in elementary shools, THEN you will see such common sense change. Because our leaders only care about things that have personally affected them.
1
Sadly, a conservative politician will only say that the way to be protected from gun violence is to carry one yourself.
Maybe, but I doubt it. Money rules over faux feelings of caring.
How many roads must a man walk down
Before they call him a man?
How many seas must a white dove sail
Before she sleeps in the sand?
How many times must the cannon balls fly
Before they're forever banned?
- Bob Dylan
To restore the Second Amendment to its original meaning, retired U.S. Supreme Court Justice John Paul Stevens would add five words to the Second Amendment:
A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms ["when serving in the Militia"], shall not be infringed.
- "Six Amendments" (2014)
Before they call him a man?
How many seas must a white dove sail
Before she sleeps in the sand?
How many times must the cannon balls fly
Before they're forever banned?
- Bob Dylan
To restore the Second Amendment to its original meaning, retired U.S. Supreme Court Justice John Paul Stevens would add five words to the Second Amendment:
A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms ["when serving in the Militia"], shall not be infringed.
- "Six Amendments" (2014)
64
To restore the Second Amendment to its original meaning, retired U.S. Supreme Court Justice John Paul Stevens would add five words to the Second Amendment:
A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms ["when serving in the Militia"], shall not be infringed.
- "Six Amendments" (2014)
===================
Justice Stevens really should have known better than this.
I'm not sure how old you are, but chances are good that you are serving in the Militia right now.
Check 10 USC 311:
a) The militia of the United States consists of all able-bodied males at least 17 years of age and, except as provided in section 313 of title 32, under 45 years of age who are, or who have made a declaration of intention to become, citizens of the United States and of female citizens of the United States who are members of the National Guard.
(b) The classes of the militia are—
(1) the organized militia, which consists of the National Guard and the Naval Militia; and
(2) the unorganized militia, which consists of the members of the militia who are not members of the National Guard or the Naval Militia.
https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/10/311
All able-bodied males between the ages of 17 and 45.
A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms ["when serving in the Militia"], shall not be infringed.
- "Six Amendments" (2014)
===================
Justice Stevens really should have known better than this.
I'm not sure how old you are, but chances are good that you are serving in the Militia right now.
Check 10 USC 311:
a) The militia of the United States consists of all able-bodied males at least 17 years of age and, except as provided in section 313 of title 32, under 45 years of age who are, or who have made a declaration of intention to become, citizens of the United States and of female citizens of the United States who are members of the National Guard.
(b) The classes of the militia are—
(1) the organized militia, which consists of the National Guard and the Naval Militia; and
(2) the unorganized militia, which consists of the members of the militia who are not members of the National Guard or the Naval Militia.
https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/10/311
All able-bodied males between the ages of 17 and 45.
When the original statement is read correctly, when the commas correctly in place, it means exactly what you're saying without the extra words.
Another shooting, more deaths here in our homeland. Another outpouring of sympathy and condolences to the bereaved. More criticism of our mental health care system, our essentially unfettered access to guns, and the NRA's ownership of our political process. And tomorrow, what will have changed?
I, for one, despair that our nation's leaders and our voting public will awaken to bring about rational change and address this, an international disgrace.
I, for one, despair that our nation's leaders and our voting public will awaken to bring about rational change and address this, an international disgrace.
18
My deepest condolences to the family and friends of the two young victims, they didn't deserve this, I hope those who knew them manage to deal with their grief.
As for the perpetrator, I truly hope that he doesn't survive. We don't need to know the twisted reasoning coming from his bucket-of-worms mind. We don't need him to keep living, he's got nothing to offer humanity.
I think the lesson here is we need more intensive mental health treatment, available to all, enforced on some. If there were a hotline that family of this shooter could have called, saying that he was spiraling down into psychosis, he could have been contained and treated long before this I'm sure. Nearly all such shooters show similar symptoms of paranoia, depression, megalomania, and so on.
What will not do anything is changing the gun laws. There was probably nothing on record to stop this guy from buying a gun, but had there been, like most shooters he would have gotten one illegally. If we tackle the gun industry, forcing them to regulate things, and cease production of ammo for older guns and such, that could help. But the big thing is, I think, America needs more health care, because Americans have a habit of going completely insane.
As for the perpetrator, I truly hope that he doesn't survive. We don't need to know the twisted reasoning coming from his bucket-of-worms mind. We don't need him to keep living, he's got nothing to offer humanity.
I think the lesson here is we need more intensive mental health treatment, available to all, enforced on some. If there were a hotline that family of this shooter could have called, saying that he was spiraling down into psychosis, he could have been contained and treated long before this I'm sure. Nearly all such shooters show similar symptoms of paranoia, depression, megalomania, and so on.
What will not do anything is changing the gun laws. There was probably nothing on record to stop this guy from buying a gun, but had there been, like most shooters he would have gotten one illegally. If we tackle the gun industry, forcing them to regulate things, and cease production of ammo for older guns and such, that could help. But the big thing is, I think, America needs more health care, because Americans have a habit of going completely insane.
6
You are making some big assumptions here. From what we know now, this guy previously had been someone with grievances against former employers, including allegations of racial bias, and anger managment problems. What is the solution? "More intensive mental health treatment," likely involuntary? If this man would have met the criteria, again based on what is currently known about him, so would have millions of others.
And there is no evidence-based way to treat someone with the goal of preventing homicide or mass homicide, so the truly best solution would be lengthy or indefinite confinement away from society - before, mind you, any crime has been committed. The only positive would be I'm sure, casting such a wide net, we could get a lot of gun nuts off the street....but not all.
And there is no evidence-based way to treat someone with the goal of preventing homicide or mass homicide, so the truly best solution would be lengthy or indefinite confinement away from society - before, mind you, any crime has been committed. The only positive would be I'm sure, casting such a wide net, we could get a lot of gun nuts off the street....but not all.
People need to face the fact that in a country with 300+ million guns, things like this are going to happen. I think it's pointless worry about how this person got the gun, legally or illegally. It doesn't matter. We are a country and a culture that likes its guns. We need to learn to live with the consequences.
5
You are probably not wrong, but it is sad you seem to np be so content with that.
Last year a student at a local high school stabbed 20 people (yes twenty) some seriously. Fortunately no one was killed but not for lack of his trying. He used two large knives, yet I see no call to ban the sale or possession of large knives. see
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/04/10/us/stabbings-franklin-regional-high-sc...
At a visit to my old high school I was not suprised to see metal detectors in use at the entrances, to detect guns and knives.
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/04/10/us/stabbings-franklin-regional-high-sc...
At a visit to my old high school I was not suprised to see metal detectors in use at the entrances, to detect guns and knives.
3
Perhaps you've answered your own question? 20 people stabbed, no one dead - not what you would hear with 20 people shot. Guns are much,much more deadly than most other easily-obtainable weapons.
Nationwide, I'm sure the number of people killed or injured by guns far exceeds the number killed or injured with knives. That's why you don't see a push to ban the sale or possession of large knives.
So imagine the carnage had the student had an AK-47.
"The only way to discourage the gun culture is to remove the guns from the hands and shoulders of people who are not in the law enforcement business." - New York Times, 9/24/75.
31
Sure. Then only the government thugocracy has guns. You need to read up on the history and motivations behind the second Amendment. Below is a relevant excerpt from a letter written by Thomas Jefferson in 1787:
"God forbid we should ever be 20 years without such a rebellion. [T]he people cannot be all, & always, well informed. . . .[W]hat country ever existed a century & half without a rebellion? & what country can preserve it[s] liberties if their rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance? [L]et them take arms. [T]he remedy is to set them right as to facts, pardon & pacify them. [W]hat signify a few lives lost in a century or two? [T]he tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots & tyrants. [I]t is it[s] natural manure.” (Source: Library of Congress – link: http://www.loc.gov/exhibits/jefferson/105.html)
"God forbid we should ever be 20 years without such a rebellion. [T]he people cannot be all, & always, well informed. . . .[W]hat country ever existed a century & half without a rebellion? & what country can preserve it[s] liberties if their rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance? [L]et them take arms. [T]he remedy is to set them right as to facts, pardon & pacify them. [W]hat signify a few lives lost in a century or two? [T]he tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots & tyrants. [I]t is it[s] natural manure.” (Source: Library of Congress – link: http://www.loc.gov/exhibits/jefferson/105.html)
What is the common denominator in all of these shootings--in church, in theaters, everywhere?--IT'S GUNS!!!! Every one of these shooters, whether angry or not, whether sane or not, whether legally or illegally purchasing these guns or not--they all have a gun. Forget finding out the reason how disgruntled someone is--Humans are prone to violence and if they have a gun, they too often shoot people. It's pretty simple. Work on the act of getting guns much more difficult; don't arm teachers, don't arm popcorn sellers in movie theaters, don't try to figure out the mindset of these killers--get the friggin' guns out of the marketplace--make it a stringent test to have a hunter's license--monitor the bullets allowed by law, and wake up to reality; otherwise we are doomed to read these reports every day.
19
Dear SJZ,
Sorry but you're wrong. The common denominator is insanity. Guns are not used for all mass murders (eg: the Oklahoma City bombings, the 9/11 attacks), and the vast majority of gun owners never kill anyone. We need to find and treat the insane before they go on shooting sprees, because realistically there is no way to prevent people from getting guns or lethal weapons regardless of the law.
For example, make all guns illegal, confiscate the 300 million of them by ruthless and lethal force (presumably with several hundred thousand civilian casualties), seal all borders land and sea, destroy all gun manufacturers, cease all air travel, and after all that there would be hardly any guns here. Then someone drives a fuel truck into a church and kills dozens, because he went homicidally insane.
Does that make sense? Because it's accurate, gun laws will save no one.
Sorry but you're wrong. The common denominator is insanity. Guns are not used for all mass murders (eg: the Oklahoma City bombings, the 9/11 attacks), and the vast majority of gun owners never kill anyone. We need to find and treat the insane before they go on shooting sprees, because realistically there is no way to prevent people from getting guns or lethal weapons regardless of the law.
For example, make all guns illegal, confiscate the 300 million of them by ruthless and lethal force (presumably with several hundred thousand civilian casualties), seal all borders land and sea, destroy all gun manufacturers, cease all air travel, and after all that there would be hardly any guns here. Then someone drives a fuel truck into a church and kills dozens, because he went homicidally insane.
Does that make sense? Because it's accurate, gun laws will save no one.
What is the common thread that ties this horrific incident to Charleston, Aurora, Sandy Hook (etc., etc., etc. until I want to throw up), and to Trayvon Martin, Eric Garner, Michael Brown (etc., etc., etc. until I want to scream), and to the mass incarceration of non-violent offenders, and to the ongoing resistance of the criminal justice system to evaluate the innocence of death row and other inmates with credible claims to innocence, and even to the ongoing multi-faceted tragedy of the "war on terror?" It is our national obsession with power and control, and our worship of "might" (read violence) as the solution to all problems, and somehow our entitlement to use "might" against anybody who might get in our way in life. Sure, that's an oversimplification, but I do believe it points to the only solution, which is to identify this this worship of violence and power wherever we see it, and counter it wherever and however we can.
11
What you are missing is that the real problem is a lack of respect. Garner did not respect the NYPD officers, who warned him repeatedly that the policies of the deBlasio administration would require his arrest - and when they finally came to arrest him for flouting the law and ignoring the warnings, Garner told the officers to go away and refused to be arrested. If he had used common sense and stopped breaking the law on selling single cigarettes, or if he had used common sense and respected the police officers, he would have gotten a court hearing - and he would still be alive. Brown was also not respecting people, from a local store owner whom he stole cigars from, to the officer that he assaulted and tried to take a gun from. It's not about race - you cannot say that race caused the deaths of Garner or Brown, because regardless of race, their actions would have resulted in the same final event. It's about respect. The key thing is to learn to have respect for others, including the law. I know this is not the NY Times narrative, but it is the truth - and to some of us, truth is more important than personal narratives and tabloid garbage for attention.
1
my neighbor parroting the words of the NRA tells me each day that an armed society is a polite society. he says i'm flat out wrong that an armed society is a scared and frightened society. ready to lash out and let their emotions rule their actions while they continue to be manipulated by the powers that are using them to gain more control and wealth. he claims he's the one in control and when the government comes to hunt "us" down, i'll be crawling to him for protection. with a gun he is a "big" man. take his gun away and he's just another angry old white guy who knows that "guns, guts and religion" make America great. this is yet another very sad day for all of us.
26
You forgot pathetic. Pathetic, angry, old white guy. Because that's what I see. Actually cowards afraid of their own shadows.
Using “flash-bomb journalism”, i.e. the full-blast broadcasting of extremely rare, isolated incidents and presenting them as the norm – a la Ferguson, Missouri -- and mixing them with “disparate impact” statistics (too many blacks in prison, failing in school, getting expelled from school, unemployed, etc.) supposedly proving white racism, the Left continues to do a thorough job of convincing blacks that white racism is the cause of all their problems; that white racism -- and only white racism -- stands between them and happiness.
Ultimately, rather than improving race relations, this false and poisonous gospel is being deeply and indelibly embedded into the hearts and minds of black America, and -- as evidenced, I believe, by this shooter -- is succeeding only in breeding hatred.
Ultimately, rather than improving race relations, this false and poisonous gospel is being deeply and indelibly embedded into the hearts and minds of black America, and -- as evidenced, I believe, by this shooter -- is succeeding only in breeding hatred.
12
I was with you on the 'flash-bomb' journalism notion until you rapidly went off into a tangent about racsim. The only example of far-reaching conclusions and race baiting on this one seems to be coming from you.
Oh, and hundreds of years of slavery, Jim Crow, lynchings, red lining, denying people the right to vote, have had no impact? Sure, it's all due to Ferguson and Eric Holder. Keep believing that.
Maybe Megyn Kelly should get herself a small pistol, the kind that fits in a purse, like Nancy Reagan's. There's a sickness in the air, the same "malaise" that Jimmy Carter bemoaned decades ago, it's energized the losers and loners to act-out selfies in public, knowing a gun will galvanize the populace into cold fear, and powerlessness. The next Oswald is where today?
7
I hope the shooter (who didn't manage to kill himself) can be put to trial to receive the justice he deserves.
2
Will justice be done? Or will slick lawyers claim racism or mental illness and get the guy off? Far better if he does not survive and spare everyone else..
Perhaps you should read the story, or at least the first paragraph, before commenting.
The courts cannot and will not interpret the second amendment more narrowly. So it is time for us the change the amendment. Only we, the people, can do it.
23
The gun-violence madness continues... and no elected official, or the president, even bothers to suggest that regulation of guns is something to consider and bring up for a vote in Congress any more...
How sick is that? And how dysfunctional is our 'system' of government?
NRA, intimidation, and lobbyist money is holding the nation hostage.
How sick is that? And how dysfunctional is our 'system' of government?
NRA, intimidation, and lobbyist money is holding the nation hostage.
25
The comments are very predictable. Let me list one fact that cars kill many, many more people every year. Just texting alone probably kills more people in cars. Are we ready to ban cars? All we need to do is enforce the laws on the books right now and we would stop these crazies. You would still have people getting guns but not to this extent. The other fact is that short of making America a police state when you have a country of over 300 million people you can't control everyone.
4
Cars are not specifically designed to kill people. Guns are specifically designed to kill people. By law, you cannot drive a car without applying for a license and providing proof that you can operate a car safely. You can notr operate a car without provideing proof that you have entere into an insurance contract to compensate persons you may harm by your unsafe driving. There is no similar proof of insurance requirement for possession of guns. Why is it that guns have become exempt from any and all reasonable licensing requirments in almost all of the states, while cars are subject to registration, proof of insurance and licensing?
1
The comments from the gun lobbyists is very predictable. Common sense - something that gun lobbyists need us to forget, but we don't - shows that a person using another weapon - car, tank, knife, rope - can attack one directed target at a time in a confined area. Not so with a perpetrator armed with a gun, particularly an assault weapon, who can attack more than one target and also a wide area at a time. Guns are a huge problem in the US, and we need to update the Constitution to reinforce the original intention of the Second Amendment - guns held ONLY by a regulated militia, not by anyone who wants an arsenal in their kitchen. Gun availability has killed millions, from Ernest Hemingway to John F. Kennedy to the guard at the Federal Building this week on Varick Street in NY to infants in drive by shootings to 20 first graders in Newtown to the 2 journalists this morning. Enough.
Ban cars?
Cars literally enable our society to function at its highest level. They enable people to get to work, kids to get to school, goods to get to stores, etc.
Do tell how guns benefit society (aside from helping us win wars). And I'm talking about how they *really* benefit society. I don't want to hear about the rare hero story or the fun hunting weekend with your buddies.
How do guns directly benefit hundreds of millions of people and contribute enormously to the value of our society everyday like cars do?
Can't just look at one side of the equation.
I'll wait...
Cars literally enable our society to function at its highest level. They enable people to get to work, kids to get to school, goods to get to stores, etc.
Do tell how guns benefit society (aside from helping us win wars). And I'm talking about how they *really* benefit society. I don't want to hear about the rare hero story or the fun hunting weekend with your buddies.
How do guns directly benefit hundreds of millions of people and contribute enormously to the value of our society everyday like cars do?
Can't just look at one side of the equation.
I'll wait...
This terrible tragedy seems all too familiar in a country that is racked by gun violence on a daily basis. Surely an increasing number of Americans realize that more guns lead to more deaths. The price we pay for "freedom" seems to be a greater risk of harm and loss.
4
The killer's use of “new media” to control his message on “old media” is something unique. I am not naïve. No matter what is being said by media outlets now, the video and twenty-three page manifesto the killer created may be proceeded by statements like, “newsworthy”, “the public's right to know”, and “difficult to watch, but...”, but it will be aired. It is sad, but along with gun violence, this is the world we live in now. A world where “messaging” the moment, even if that moment is videotaped assassinations, is now a thing.
7
If you truly want to save lives, banning guns is a punt. Of est 300 million guns in private hands, 0.0037% are used in murders, and of those in excess of 80% are gang related, per the CDC.
So if you're truly looking to address meaningful correlation, you have to look at why gangs have become so prevalent in the last 60 years.
When you do that, inevitably you have to look at the direct correlation to the growth of the Welfare Society, LBJ, and decades of failed progressive Wars on Poverty, and add the overlay of how the banking cartel system under which we all suffer has compounded the problems of poverty and struggling families.
In other words, we have to look at the complete and utter failures of Central Planning.
That's an anathema to any progressive since they worship the very essence of it in all their wisdom and smug self-satisfaction about their own views.
So, blame guns. That's easy, and guns are the reset button for liberty, which they also hate!
So if you're truly looking to address meaningful correlation, you have to look at why gangs have become so prevalent in the last 60 years.
When you do that, inevitably you have to look at the direct correlation to the growth of the Welfare Society, LBJ, and decades of failed progressive Wars on Poverty, and add the overlay of how the banking cartel system under which we all suffer has compounded the problems of poverty and struggling families.
In other words, we have to look at the complete and utter failures of Central Planning.
That's an anathema to any progressive since they worship the very essence of it in all their wisdom and smug self-satisfaction about their own views.
So, blame guns. That's easy, and guns are the reset button for liberty, which they also hate!
7
it's crazy thinking like this that has gotten us in this mess. "The reset button for liberty", nuts!
That's a very compelling narrative, and if America was the only country in the world, it would be non-trivial to debunk.
1
People blame guns because homicide is among the top 5 leading causes of death in 1-44 year olds. Homicide is the number 3 cause of death for 1-4 year olds. These "homicide"deaths are from firearms, not knifes, baseball bats, or whatever.
http://www.cdc.gov/injury/images/lc-charts/leading_causes_of_death_by_ag...
http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr64/nvsr64_02.pdf
http://www.cdc.gov/injury/images/lc-charts/leading_causes_of_death_by_ag...
http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr64/nvsr64_02.pdf
2
Guns have not always been as prevalent as they are now. In the 1950s and 1960s, few people had multiple weapons, and there was not the widespread fetishization of guns that is so prevalent now. After WW II, many returning veterans were really sick of weapons. The revisionist history in which weapons were always as rampant as today is one that has been generated recently, mostly since the 1970s. The brandishing of weapons is also new. There were people who carried guns in the 1950s and 1960s but were seen mostly as harmless eccentrics - there was no zeitgeist driving them to absurd behavior. We have become a society overwhelmed by fear, so this is what we get.
11
The sickest part of all of this is that for tens of millions of Americans the corporate media's obsessive coverage of this tragic incident will constitute today's "entertainment."
7
Could someone please explain to a non-American why the right to bear arms takes precedence over a person's right to go about their daily business without the fear of being shot? Isn't gun violence a threat to everyone's right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.
96
Could someone explain that to any rational American, let alone non-American?
It's hard to explain to people that Freedom unfortunately has a price...be it Freedom of Speech or the right to bear arms...there are million of people in this country who have guns legally for hunting or recreation and never bother anybody...and by the way....Europe's gun laws don't seem to stop anything either...please reference the recent train shooting and the attack on the newspaper...Can laws be strengthened..of course....but the politicians don't have the strength...blame them...not the right to bear arms.
Rob, the guns are out there. How would you go about the process of removing them without preferentially taking them away from the sane and law-abiding folks who aren't the problem in the first place, leaving those folks even more vulnerable, and not solving the problem?
2
Can't wait for this guy to plead not guilty when he took and posted the evidence. I also can't wait for him to play the race card since that was apparently his excuse for this.
I also like the gun grabber comments here yet I guess it is expected given the conditioning the mainstream media has given so many in society. Yeah, blame guns and try and ban guns like that is going to do anything. If people who want to shoot someone need a gun then they will GET A GUN. Chicago has big time gun violence despite the gun laws there.
Having strict gun laws will do nothing but take guns away from law abiding citizens and leave the crazies and criminals to have free reign on them.
I mean how hard is it to grasp that trying to control things doesn't work? Drugs? Booze back during prohibition? Jeez, you simply can't prevent things from happening. This isn't some cartoon fairy tale world.
To actually think stricter gun laws are going to magically stop shootings or gun crime is such an absurd belief and those people need to come actually live in reality.
Oh and where does it stop? Say you somehow were able to control guns and gun crime drastically lowered...but then people who want to harm others will resort to other things like say knives. Are you then going to ban knives? Oh, they then turn to baseball bats. Going to ban baseball bats?
Give me a break.
I also like the gun grabber comments here yet I guess it is expected given the conditioning the mainstream media has given so many in society. Yeah, blame guns and try and ban guns like that is going to do anything. If people who want to shoot someone need a gun then they will GET A GUN. Chicago has big time gun violence despite the gun laws there.
Having strict gun laws will do nothing but take guns away from law abiding citizens and leave the crazies and criminals to have free reign on them.
I mean how hard is it to grasp that trying to control things doesn't work? Drugs? Booze back during prohibition? Jeez, you simply can't prevent things from happening. This isn't some cartoon fairy tale world.
To actually think stricter gun laws are going to magically stop shootings or gun crime is such an absurd belief and those people need to come actually live in reality.
Oh and where does it stop? Say you somehow were able to control guns and gun crime drastically lowered...but then people who want to harm others will resort to other things like say knives. Are you then going to ban knives? Oh, they then turn to baseball bats. Going to ban baseball bats?
Give me a break.
7
the article states rather plainly that the perpetrator later killed himself.
So what's the solution?
People make the "gun argument" because other developed countries that have stricter gun rules don't have these kinds of preventable deaths.
The NRA had told us that we should all be carrying a gun to protect ourselves. Can the NRA tell us how that would have helped these two young people?
I am so sad for all the victims of guns. I am so disgusted that I can't do anything to prevent future killings. What is this madness and when will it stop?
I am so sad for all the victims of guns. I am so disgusted that I can't do anything to prevent future killings. What is this madness and when will it stop?
19
Every camera crew should have an armed security guard, just like every school and every church.
6
And every front door?
2
This is the only logical result of valuing violence over children. It seems some of us have not moved beyond the basest impulses of our biology.
N.B.: Japan has the strictest gun control regime of any major country and has not had a mass shooting in seven decades. It can be done. It can be done. It can be—wait, is anyone listening? Does anyone in this country care any more?
N.B.: Japan has the strictest gun control regime of any major country and has not had a mass shooting in seven decades. It can be done. It can be done. It can be—wait, is anyone listening? Does anyone in this country care any more?
20
This a is a morally bankrupt world where vengance and retribution are boundless. It seem more pervasive than ever.
7
Tell me again why we shouldn't enforce gun control laws. Tell me again why 22 6-7 year olds were murdered in 2012. Tell me again why we need good people with guns to stop bad people with guns. Answer is we need to enforce gun control laws, good people do not need guns, and guns should not be so easily available unless they are for hunting. No one needs a gun that can make shreds of a person unless they are in a war zone. What we need is know that we can walk in public, do our jobs, have our fun and not worry about anyone, sane or otherwise, using a gun to carry out a grudge he has against society.
31
@hen3ry. As someone who has had a gun pointed in her face and received an abject apology from the armed person because he realized--before pulling the trigger, thanks be to Providence!--that I was not the person he wished to shoot, I can only say to your posting, AMEN VERILY.
3
It's guns stupid!
No other civilized country in the world has the plethora of guns, the ease of acquiring them, the way they are carried around like our country. We must change this or get used to the type of violence that we see virtually daily.
No other civilized country in the world has the plethora of guns, the ease of acquiring them, the way they are carried around like our country. We must change this or get used to the type of violence that we see virtually daily.
90
Someone pointed out a short time ago that there are plenty of guns in Switzerland and Finland. I think it must be US.
When the Government and the President adhere to a gonzo culture of international violence, beloved by all sides, should we be surprised that disturbed individuals may want to emulate it?
When the Government and the President adhere to a gonzo culture of international violence, beloved by all sides, should we be surprised that disturbed individuals may want to emulate it?
1
Another nut with a gun, not a knife or sword, a gun. "Guns don't kill, people do says the NRA". While technically correct, guns (especially semi automatic weapons) make killing by people much more efficient. Just one more sad day for many in the USA. Take solace in the 2nd amendment.
45
Go to China or Japan and violent nut jobs and disgruntled employees kill with kitchen knives. Plenty of mass murders with knives - uighurs killed 29 people at a Chinese railroad station and some nut slashed 22 kinds at a school in China. In Canada someone entered a party at a house, took a kitchen knife and murdered five people. When a knife attacker is anesthetized by drugs, alcohol, emotion, insanity, (or a combination of them) at close range a knife attack is just as dangerous or more dangerous than a gun attack.
Bad things happen to good people. Banning firearms - even if that were remotely possible - would not make you safe (besides you are in more danger in your automobile).
Bad things happen to good people. Banning firearms - even if that were remotely possible - would not make you safe (besides you are in more danger in your automobile).
1
Complicating matters is that the version of the 2nd Amendment passed by the Congress vs. that adopted by the states and recorded by then Sec of State, Thomas Jefferson differ. In any event the recorded version reads "A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed." The context clearly requiring a well regulated militia (National Guard) and the right of the people to support the "Guard." I don't believe the right was ever intended to be absolute, a position the NRA has drummed into people's heads.
Your argument, citing two countries with almost the lowest murder rates in the world, is brilliant, simply brilliant.
2
Will this ever stop? The violent acting-out by apparent copy-cat killers harboring some form of psychopathology who decide to take out their grievances using guns. It's past time our culture do some serious self-examination; especially regarding our perverted interest in violence which shows up in our "entertainment" our video "games" and even consumes much of our daily news. All together, our culture's unconscionable focus may appear to justify the use of violence to resolve personal conflict especially by those among us who are already psychologically unstable.
20
Will this ever stop?
=================
Stop? Probably not. But the gun crime rate will likely continue to decline as it has since 1993. Our gun homicide rate is half of what it was then.
http://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2013/05/07/gun-homicide-rate-down-49-sinc...
=================
Stop? Probably not. But the gun crime rate will likely continue to decline as it has since 1993. Our gun homicide rate is half of what it was then.
http://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2013/05/07/gun-homicide-rate-down-49-sinc...
Let's think about the perpetrator for a minute. People don't grab a gun and shoot other people, and they don't take their own lives, unless they are desperate.
Here's a young man who was, apparently, far from home (as many of us these days are forced, by work, to be). He had recently lost his job and obviously felt that he had been discriminated against. Was he? We may never have an answer that satisfies everyone, but young black men have become social pariahs--police shoot them, some of them shoot one another, and they're less likely to be hired than white felons. Very few people are subject, in this country, to greater discrimination than they are.
Did the station have prejudices? Of course, we all do. But the fact that both victims were 'romantically involved' with co-workers suggests (but doesn't prove) a culture of cronyism--a very tough culture for an outsider to break through.
Recourse to the courts for discrimination is, for all intents and purposes, non-existent. Unless one is willing to sacrifice one's future job prospects for a meager settlement, legal recourse is out of the question. (We may decry litigiousness, but it beats dueling in the streets.)
It's a tragedy that these two people died. I know of no excuse for this young man's acts. But unless we can create real hope for people, especially the young, I'm afraid the violence is unlikely to stop.
Here's a young man who was, apparently, far from home (as many of us these days are forced, by work, to be). He had recently lost his job and obviously felt that he had been discriminated against. Was he? We may never have an answer that satisfies everyone, but young black men have become social pariahs--police shoot them, some of them shoot one another, and they're less likely to be hired than white felons. Very few people are subject, in this country, to greater discrimination than they are.
Did the station have prejudices? Of course, we all do. But the fact that both victims were 'romantically involved' with co-workers suggests (but doesn't prove) a culture of cronyism--a very tough culture for an outsider to break through.
Recourse to the courts for discrimination is, for all intents and purposes, non-existent. Unless one is willing to sacrifice one's future job prospects for a meager settlement, legal recourse is out of the question. (We may decry litigiousness, but it beats dueling in the streets.)
It's a tragedy that these two people died. I know of no excuse for this young man's acts. But unless we can create real hope for people, especially the young, I'm afraid the violence is unlikely to stop.
12
The shooter could just as likely have been imagining a racist conspiracy where none exists.
10
Or perhaps the shooter was mentally ill?
6
HE lost is job in Feb 2013 according to the story - not recently.
3
There are so many guns in this country now, and so much hate. And there is so little help for those who have serious mental problems. I despair that anything can be done at times like this. But we must do something.
33
Let's each start by looking to our own families and communities. Perhaps if we all did that...
1
The general election in 2016 will present an excellent opportunity to bring America home. Do the right thing, let Bernie Sanders continue to walk around with his sleeves rolled up and clutching waste paper on Vermont's dime.
Recently there was an interesting article in a national weekly news magazine, pointing out that mass shootings seem to be a particularly American phenomenon. Even the mass killings in the Middle East wars are not like ours. You have to have available guns, of course. But even in countries such as Switzerland and Finland, where guns are very common, you seldom have these events. They seem also to require a lack of attention to mental health and to the availability of guns to criminals and other people who are prone to violence. You also apparently have to have a culture that normalizes and glamorizes violence.
We have much work to do, and we can expect to suffer many more of these events.
We have much work to do, and we can expect to suffer many more of these events.
28
The NRA lobby will never allow anything to be done. And frankly, it may just be too late. You can't put toothpaste back in the tube.
1
There are 88.8 guns per citizen in the USA; Switzerland it is 45.7, Finland 29.1.
In the USA there roughly 10.6 firearm deaths per 100,000 (homicide rate of 3.55); Swiss see 2.91 and 0.23; Fins 3.64, and 0.26.
So roughly there are three times as many firearms in the USA as Finland; and twice as many firearms than Switzerland.
Firearm related deaths in Finland are roughly 1/3 the USA; Switzerland, roughly 27%. Homicide rate is 13.6 times higher in the USA; in Switzerland 15 times higher.
Suicide by firearms is roughly proportional to gun ownership among the countries. Homicide is dramatically increased in the USA.
In the USA there roughly 10.6 firearm deaths per 100,000 (homicide rate of 3.55); Swiss see 2.91 and 0.23; Fins 3.64, and 0.26.
So roughly there are three times as many firearms in the USA as Finland; and twice as many firearms than Switzerland.
Firearm related deaths in Finland are roughly 1/3 the USA; Switzerland, roughly 27%. Homicide rate is 13.6 times higher in the USA; in Switzerland 15 times higher.
Suicide by firearms is roughly proportional to gun ownership among the countries. Homicide is dramatically increased in the USA.
Wasn't the shooter a good guy with a gun, providing defense against bad guys with guns that were lurking in that deserted mall, right up until the time he pulled the trigger?
This is what I simply do not get about the good guy/bad guy with gun theory. You don't who is who until the trigger is pulled. Dead bodies as a detector for who is good/bad is macabre and immoral.
This is what I simply do not get about the good guy/bad guy with gun theory. You don't who is who until the trigger is pulled. Dead bodies as a detector for who is good/bad is macabre and immoral.
28
Charleston, Chattanooga, Lafayette, Houston, and now Franklin County, VA. All in a single summer's stretch. Since June 1 2015, the USA has witnessed 104 multiple shootings and is still counting fast.
I operate a blog that advocates for what should be an obvious change in America: the institution of simple sanity to confront our out-of-control spiral of gun madness. I'm a one-man operation, so the time I can spend updating my blog is limited.
My intention is to address issues thoughtfully and in-depth. I am not a fast or facile writer, so written reflection takes time. Written reflection is now routinely interrupted at a sickeningly increasing pace by breaking news of shooting after incomprehensible shooting.
So far today, two TV journalists are slain for no cause near Roanoke. If the unfortunate interviewee, Ms. Vicki Gardner, also dies, we'll have another domestic mass gun murder. If she survives, Ms. Gardner may be disabled for the rest of her life. For Alison Parker and Adam Ward, two promising lives are prematurely robbed, leaving another trail of tears in the wake of senseless carnage.
This is the culture madness, no less than that our lawmakers are feckless, fearing the impact of the gun lobby on their political prospects more than they fear the murder and maiming of their own constituents.The madness must stop now. In a sane culture it would never have started.
www.endthemadnessnow.org
I operate a blog that advocates for what should be an obvious change in America: the institution of simple sanity to confront our out-of-control spiral of gun madness. I'm a one-man operation, so the time I can spend updating my blog is limited.
My intention is to address issues thoughtfully and in-depth. I am not a fast or facile writer, so written reflection takes time. Written reflection is now routinely interrupted at a sickeningly increasing pace by breaking news of shooting after incomprehensible shooting.
So far today, two TV journalists are slain for no cause near Roanoke. If the unfortunate interviewee, Ms. Vicki Gardner, also dies, we'll have another domestic mass gun murder. If she survives, Ms. Gardner may be disabled for the rest of her life. For Alison Parker and Adam Ward, two promising lives are prematurely robbed, leaving another trail of tears in the wake of senseless carnage.
This is the culture madness, no less than that our lawmakers are feckless, fearing the impact of the gun lobby on their political prospects more than they fear the murder and maiming of their own constituents.The madness must stop now. In a sane culture it would never have started.
www.endthemadnessnow.org
71
So much useless rhetoric back and forth - guns held by people - kill people, plainly and simply. Less access to guns = less people killed. Less people killed is a good thing; we should all agree on that. Perhaps one day we will do something about it. Of course perhaps one day our government will balance the budget and pass smart, obvious gun laws to protect us all - probably the same day pigs start flying ...
39
You yourself, Greg, stop short of saying guns should be banned or that there isn't some right to them. We know that sometimes civilians with guns save themselves or others. Having "smart, obvious gun laws" is something even the NRA might agree with. But what's smart and obvious? You might know, but whenever I read the ample research on both sides, it seems anything but plain and simple what that might be.
1
Dear Greg,
True, it'll never happen, because there aren't any gun laws that would protect us. Many guns used in such homicides are illegal, stolen or smuggled over the borders. Make all guns illegal, and the consequence would be that all gun murders would be done with illegal guns, it wouldn't reduce their frequency much. Either we work on identifying mentally ill, dangerously violent people early in life, or we live with these constant murders. Because one thing connects the murderers: they're all insane.
True, it'll never happen, because there aren't any gun laws that would protect us. Many guns used in such homicides are illegal, stolen or smuggled over the borders. Make all guns illegal, and the consequence would be that all gun murders would be done with illegal guns, it wouldn't reduce their frequency much. Either we work on identifying mentally ill, dangerously violent people early in life, or we live with these constant murders. Because one thing connects the murderers: they're all insane.
1
So much useless rhetoric back and forth - guns held by people - kill people, plainly and simply. Less access to guns = less people killed.
================
This isn't true at all. The number of firearms is this country is higher than ever, most estimates are around 300 million, up from 192 million in 2003.
Yet the gun death rates have been declining for over 20 years. The gun homicide rate is half of what it was in 1993 and it continues to decline
http://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2013/05/07/gun-homicide-rate-down-49-sinc...
================
This isn't true at all. The number of firearms is this country is higher than ever, most estimates are around 300 million, up from 192 million in 2003.
Yet the gun death rates have been declining for over 20 years. The gun homicide rate is half of what it was in 1993 and it continues to decline
http://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2013/05/07/gun-homicide-rate-down-49-sinc...
The freedom of Americans to be randomly slaughtered by an imbalanced male with limited coping skills and gun fetishes shall not be infringed.
America is not much of a country when you think about it.
America is not much of a country when you think about it.
389
Surely it has come to that. We are not much of a country anymore. We have freedom of what?
Shooting in schools , Malls, work places, college campuses, military academic schools you name it. Oh I forgot , we have freedom of speech, we have right to bear arms , we have right to take someone else's life. As much as I was proud of our constitution one time, I think I am no more a proud American when I see senseless lives taken away under the disguise of constitution
Shooting in schools , Malls, work places, college campuses, military academic schools you name it. Oh I forgot , we have freedom of speech, we have right to bear arms , we have right to take someone else's life. As much as I was proud of our constitution one time, I think I am no more a proud American when I see senseless lives taken away under the disguise of constitution
7
No one is holding a gun to your head.
Hitch a ride with the illegals when they head back down Mexico way after Trump becomes president. There I'm sure you'll find the Utopia you're looking for.
Hitch a ride with the illegals when they head back down Mexico way after Trump becomes president. There I'm sure you'll find the Utopia you're looking for.
1
You can always move. Canada has openings.
1
There were an average of 24 people murdered each day in 2012 by guns. What makes the deaths of these people news?
Not trying to be callous, but it just seems like why should I care more about these 2 people than the other 22 who are expected to be killed today? When we as a country actually start doing something about gun violence, give me call.
Not trying to be callous, but it just seems like why should I care more about these 2 people than the other 22 who are expected to be killed today? When we as a country actually start doing something about gun violence, give me call.
28
Caring for these two doesn't negate caring about others. The two are not mutually exclusive.
1
Completely agree - the so-called "news" was how social media was used in real time (since many previous killers have left behind recorded messages, videos and letters which were revealed after the event). The horrible fact that two people lost their loves and another may be disabled (read "life changed forever") will just go onto the rolls of those who get shot every day, Some by violent madmen, some by their family members. It is time to stop. Civilians do not need guns.
Fact 1: Most guns that are purchased legally are used to kill a friend, loved one, or a neighbor, or are used against the gun owner.
Fact 2: Most acts of violence involved temporary emotional rage. Thus, even if a person is convicted of murder and executed, this doesn't reduce murder even one iota. In fact, when someone says capital punishment will stop a murderer from ever getting out of prison and committing another murder, all of the future murder victims are hypothetical victims, not real victims.
Fact 3: Most Americans don't have the intelligence that evolution gave, and then artificial selection took away from, sheep. Most humans are sheep that have learned to drive motor vehicles and with hands that can shoot a gun.
Fact 2: Most acts of violence involved temporary emotional rage. Thus, even if a person is convicted of murder and executed, this doesn't reduce murder even one iota. In fact, when someone says capital punishment will stop a murderer from ever getting out of prison and committing another murder, all of the future murder victims are hypothetical victims, not real victims.
Fact 3: Most Americans don't have the intelligence that evolution gave, and then artificial selection took away from, sheep. Most humans are sheep that have learned to drive motor vehicles and with hands that can shoot a gun.
19
Would love to see the research or data supporting your "Fact 1" that "most guns that are purchased legally are used to kill...". I guess the weapons that myself and my family have purchased legally over the years didn't get the memo.
Fact 1: Most guns that are purchased legally are used to kill a friend, loved one, or a neighbor, or are used against the gun owner.
================
This isn't a fact. There are about 300 million guns in circulation, the overwhelming majority of which were purchased legally. If "most guns that are purchased legally are used to kill a friend, loved one, or a neighbor, or are used against the gun owner" we would all already be dead.
================
This isn't a fact. There are about 300 million guns in circulation, the overwhelming majority of which were purchased legally. If "most guns that are purchased legally are used to kill a friend, loved one, or a neighbor, or are used against the gun owner" we would all already be dead.
@Jon Davis: Fact 1 is not a fact. "Most guns that are purchased legally" are not even used in a crime, let alone to "kill a friend, loved one, or a neighbor, or are used against the gun owner." You were really off the mark with this one. Kind of ironic, given Fact 3.
What can you say? This is so tragic and unnecessary. Another angry man with a gun and a grievance acting out violently, this time on live TV.
I can't help but feel that an entitled, victimology mindset, wherein angry, disgruntled people (mostly men), blame everyone but themselves for all their problems, contributed to this tragedy. Personal responsibility would require accepting at least a portion of the blame for one's own situation in life, and that just won't do. No, much easier to put the onus on innocent people and external circumstances they perceive as beyond their control.
A desperate need for attention also seems to be at play here. In our, "Everyone look at me!" media and online culture, being infamous is just as good as being famous. Apparently, this guy filmed his crime and posted it on YouTube and Twitter. Like the snuff videos ISIS produces, he knew our morbid fascination would compel us to look at what he'd done, and was proud of.
Again, what can you say? We live in a victim, grievance mongering, narcissistic society, with a lot of sick people nursing a long list of grievances, who want their big moment in the spotlight, and are willing to do whatever it takes to get it.
I won't even go into the gun control debate, because, I mean really, what's the point? If twenty plus dead second graders didn't do it...nothing will.
I can't help but feel that an entitled, victimology mindset, wherein angry, disgruntled people (mostly men), blame everyone but themselves for all their problems, contributed to this tragedy. Personal responsibility would require accepting at least a portion of the blame for one's own situation in life, and that just won't do. No, much easier to put the onus on innocent people and external circumstances they perceive as beyond their control.
A desperate need for attention also seems to be at play here. In our, "Everyone look at me!" media and online culture, being infamous is just as good as being famous. Apparently, this guy filmed his crime and posted it on YouTube and Twitter. Like the snuff videos ISIS produces, he knew our morbid fascination would compel us to look at what he'd done, and was proud of.
Again, what can you say? We live in a victim, grievance mongering, narcissistic society, with a lot of sick people nursing a long list of grievances, who want their big moment in the spotlight, and are willing to do whatever it takes to get it.
I won't even go into the gun control debate, because, I mean really, what's the point? If twenty plus dead second graders didn't do it...nothing will.
46
I agree that we live in grievance mongering society where people who imagine they have been snubbed or disrespected somehow feel entitled to take it out on their imagined perpetrators by killing them. This exaltation of victimhood is, unfortunately, fostered by the press. The idea of taking responsibility for ones personal grievances definitely needs to be brought to the fore.
.
.
2
It's our fault. We don't socialize in person. We text. We live in isolated electronic bubbles. All communication is filtered and slanted. Physical cues are hidden, disguised. Mind your own business. Anyone can say anything. The individual reigns supreme.
With the loss of the community, close contact with each other, problems fester and grow out of control. The shooter was let go two years ago. The loss of a job turned into a crusade of death.
Guns fill the void. Guns are the solution. Guns give anyone the power of instant lethal force.
A society that has lost its close contact with each other cannot tolerate guns everywhere. We are no longer a sensible, responsible population. Gun are now far too dangerous to be as common as bags of potato chips. We cannot be trusted with such things any longer.
The rights of the individual to possess such force must be tempered if society cannot manage its individuals. We can't control ourselves so we must forfeit the right to walk streets with handguns. We are turing into Afghanistan. That's not freedom. That's slavery to fear and power.
With the loss of the community, close contact with each other, problems fester and grow out of control. The shooter was let go two years ago. The loss of a job turned into a crusade of death.
Guns fill the void. Guns are the solution. Guns give anyone the power of instant lethal force.
A society that has lost its close contact with each other cannot tolerate guns everywhere. We are no longer a sensible, responsible population. Gun are now far too dangerous to be as common as bags of potato chips. We cannot be trusted with such things any longer.
The rights of the individual to possess such force must be tempered if society cannot manage its individuals. We can't control ourselves so we must forfeit the right to walk streets with handguns. We are turing into Afghanistan. That's not freedom. That's slavery to fear and power.
50
Bruce, if you want to accept the blame for this tragedy that is fine..but please don't lump the rest of us into this because people text! "Guns fill the void. Guns are the solution" What in the heck are you talking about? Stop pontificating and get out of the house once in a while and socialize! I have no issue on better with gun control but I obviously have a more optimistic view on society as a whole than you do...or perhaps you are just having a bad day?
2
Such senselessness is enabled -- no coddled -- no again, actively promoted by the unprecedented incivility of the current presidential campaign, especially but not exclusively by that gleeful bluster of hot air that wears a hideous red toupée.
www.endthemadnessnow.org
www.endthemadnessnow.org
Since 1993-4, handgun homicide has decreased (although 91-98 were high years). The internet use has increased over those years. Texting and emailing are not explanations.
Now is this a racist murder of two white people and attempted murder of another white person by an angry black man? It sure sounds like it to me. How about covering that angle of the story. Here is a thought " Angry black man who saw racism as the cause of his failures murders two white people" or is that too difficult for you to accept??
61
No, it's not.
It's Virginia. Would I die of shock if he was subjected to racism? No! The issue here, AGAIN, is why a clearly mentally unsound man was able to obtain a gun so easily. Where were social services? Police? Family/friends?
It's Virginia. Would I die of shock if he was subjected to racism? No! The issue here, AGAIN, is why a clearly mentally unsound man was able to obtain a gun so easily. Where were social services? Police? Family/friends?
1
I agree. We have become so afraid of saying politically incorrect things that we ignore the obvious. No wonder there is a huge backlash of white supremacists growing in this country. .
1
But they did cover that angle of the story. If they had not, would you be aware of the shooter's race or his complaint about racist comments? And why would it be difficult for someone (the reporter?) to accept? Not sure what your point is.
1
Sad fact: gun tragedies are no longer surprising news here in this country. I have traveled the world, been to all 7 continents, and truthfully the perception of the US is as a gun-toting nation. I constantly fought that perception while abroad, however incidents like this one bolster the case.
This was an act of a deeply hurt and disturbed man. Taking up arms and shooting people is not a rational reaction, and my condolences go out to the families and friends of the victims.
I am on the side of doing whatever it takes to remove guns from our society. Civilians have no business possessing them.
This was an act of a deeply hurt and disturbed man. Taking up arms and shooting people is not a rational reaction, and my condolences go out to the families and friends of the victims.
I am on the side of doing whatever it takes to remove guns from our society. Civilians have no business possessing them.
32
Is the shooter dead? The article doesnt say, only that he shot himself.
What a horrific act. Our culture is numbed by the incessant horrific violence.
What a horrific act. Our culture is numbed by the incessant horrific violence.
9
I don't think we know yet.
Actually, the article does state that the shooter died from a self-inflicted gun shot wound to the head. "After leading the police on a high-speed pursuit, the gunman shot himself in the head, and later died, officials said."
This country is utterly sick. Sick with unresolved anger. Sick with gun saturation.
"Men love death." - Andrea Dworkin
"Men love death." - Andrea Dworkin
47
Television is a big part of the problem. What crazy people can't watch on the news and in movies 24/7, they can't imitate.
8
Shortly after the events in Virginia hit the airwaves and internet, a friend in a much less prosperous and 'advanced' country texted to ask "What the hell is wrong with the USA? Is the convenience of a neighborhood Whole Foods, the easy availability of Apple products, and a back yard pool really a good trade off for the fact that you, your family, and friends might be gunned down at a moments notice?" It was a question for which I have no answer, and I told him as much. Gun control, health care, crumbling infrastructure, income inequality, racial tensions, public education, human rights, etc. (to name a few) are all issues that are bringing down the USA. And all anyone in Washington can do, Republican and/or Democrat, is deliver platitudes meant to sooth us, while pointing fingers at each other. It's all very discouraging, and these evens in the USA make his less prosperous country look very appealing. My ancestors, who came here from Ireland, would be shocked, but I'm thinking of leaving the US. Maybe it's time, I don't really care for $21 cheese and I already have an iPad, so.......
My sincere condolences to go the friends and families of Alison and Adam. I hope you can someday wrap your head around the events and circumstances that brought us to this point. I doubt I would ever be able to do so, were I in your shoes.
My sincere condolences to go the friends and families of Alison and Adam. I hope you can someday wrap your head around the events and circumstances that brought us to this point. I doubt I would ever be able to do so, were I in your shoes.
90
Talk of leaving this crazed country has been foremost in my mind for years, but it's easier said than done. Nobody else wants us. Maybe with good reason.
This has been said many, many times before. But I feel compelled to say it again. Every country in the world has their share of mentally challenged folks, their share of evil people. But the US is the only country where they have ready and easy access to guns. We can thank the 2nd amendment for this unique privilege and the NRA for endowing this right with an almost religious fervor. In any other place in the world, after Sandy Hook, they would have pulled the plug on this freedom. But not here. It does seem that the US is condemned to see many more tragic deaths. Only solution, avoid public places if at all possible.
104
Make everyone who supports guns have some skin in the game: just as in other products, if the product you manufacturer or sell is used to harm someone, assign some liability. Get those who sell guns to monitor themselves and make mistakes costly. A gun is left lying on the night stand is used by a child to kill another? No pity points. Just as there are no pity points for someone who lets a child drink poisonous substances in a meth lab. Personal responsibility: that's all. If someone steals and unsecured gun, assign some liability. Let the insurance companies make some money. If I don't scrape the ice off my walk and a tract-bearer falls, I am liable. Yet I can leave my guns lying about to be stolen and when they are used to kill someone I am not, or if I sell a gun to someone who is obviously mentally ill. Let's regulate that militia.
109
This may be the way to go.
You have to admire a country willing to sacrifice hundreds of thousands of lives per decade for a freedom they hold dear. That's REAL commitment. No other nation on Earth measures up. Citizens of other first world industrialized nations rather selfishly place a higher value on the lives of their spouses, children, co-workers, parents, neighbors and fellow students.
180
I don't consider this country to be a First World Country. Our political system is corrupt; we are armed to the teeth and commit about as much mayhem among ourselves as we do waging illegal wars abroad. This country is going to break off into separate areas governed by warlords if we don't stop arming the useful idiots.
I am so very sorry for the loss. What a sad and senseless act of violence. My prayers goes out to the families and co-workers of the victims.
We...the American People really need to stand up and fight for stronger gun laws!
We...the American People really need to stand up and fight for stronger gun laws!
27
Criminals don't obey the laws.
Like in Chicago?
America is a bankrupted, global military empire.
The NRA was created in the 1870's as an "educational" resource: so northern victors of the Civil War could sharpen their shooting skills and murder "red skins" and take control of native lands in the west.
Small arms sales (promoted by NRA propaganda) are simply the domestic component of the US Military-Industrial Complex. The fascist goal: to arm every "law biding" person in America for the coming battle with the "illegals". This sad murder of television journalists is simply "collateral damage" in the new calculus of the US "Security State".
The NRA was created in the 1870's as an "educational" resource: so northern victors of the Civil War could sharpen their shooting skills and murder "red skins" and take control of native lands in the west.
Small arms sales (promoted by NRA propaganda) are simply the domestic component of the US Military-Industrial Complex. The fascist goal: to arm every "law biding" person in America for the coming battle with the "illegals". This sad murder of television journalists is simply "collateral damage" in the new calculus of the US "Security State".
21
So how many more need to die before we get some kind of gun control in place. Meaning let's figure out a way to keep guns out of the hands of wackos. We all have the right to bear arms but those not mentally stable should not have those rights. Support mental health.
9