Fortunately, hypocrisy has its uses. We can robustly support our NATO ally Turkey and vice versa, while we supply sophisticated anti-aircraft systems to non-Turkey-based Kurds in order to facilitate any peace negotiations between those two adversaries stateside in Turkey.
5
It looks like Turkey is using ISIS as a fig leaf to excuse breaking their cease fire agreement with the Kurdish People's Party. This part of the world is fraught with generations old tribalism and revenge politics. The Kurds have shown themselves the only local force on the ground that doesn't drop its weapons and run at the first smell of cordite. The Kurds will fight ISIS and have proven so. We should be supporting the Kirds in their aspiration for a homeland, no matter whos' toes get trampled. Our efforts to do whe wrong thing in this part of the world have come up failing. Perhaps we should try to do the right and moral thing.
21
ISIS has been driven from almost all the land that it controlled near the border of Turkey - and now suddenly Erdogan sees a need to fight ISIS. A very improbable story. Its credibility decreases even further when one considers that it is now attacked the Kurds - the people who drove ISIS from Turkey's borders.
11
Whatever are we doing there? Iraq gave us the bum's rush, Turkey loathes the Kurds and ISIS, Russia loves Assad, Iran dotes on Hezbollah who are fighting for their buddy Assasd, the Sunnis destest the Shiites and look to ISIS as saviors, Iran, the US and its allies, the Shiitie Iraqi government, Assad, and anyone not affiliated with al-Queda, the Taliban, and Boko Haram are peevish about ISIS. Israel, as ever, is bellicose with everyone. Is there even a side worth picking?
4
Turkey for years has allowed the safe passage of ISIS fighters from all over the globe.
With an ally like Turkey, who needs enemies?
With an ally like Turkey, who needs enemies?
16
This is the eventual logic of the Turkish obsession to oust Assad. When will it be officially declared that a sovereign Syria is dead? By also hitting the PKK, Turkey can mollify ISIL, even as it attacks it directly. The decision to allow U.S. to use its airbase will expose it to attacks from ISIL. Turkey never gets it right, and it would be a mistake for the U.S. to become entangled in a spreading war.
4
If the US had any decency it would support Kurdish self-determination, and not Erdogan in his unjust and brutal attacks. The PKK and YPG are far more democratic than Erdogan.
18
Oh there will be hand-wringing for the camera's by American politicians but the fact is that the Kurdish nation awaiting its que to get on the stage represents a true and actual existential threat to Turkey. You would have to be unconscious to not suspect some undisclosed promises made to the Kurds by the U.S. In order that they become the most significant proxy in the battle against ISIS and Assad. Turkey is changing, falling out of love with its western illusions, and clearly and wisely does not trust the Western Alliance.
5
The truth is that Erdogan is not happy with the election results which did not gave his party the needed majority to change the Constitution so that Turkey becomes president republic. And one of the reasons for that is the Kurdish party. If the prime minister Davutoglu cannot form a government in recent days new elections come on the horizon and how convenient is the timing for a conflict with the Kurds. I will not be surprised if the attack allegedly perpetrated by ISIS is in fact a setup by the Turkish government.
12
The Kurds are a great people and great allies. We should make no deal with anyone who harms them. In fact, if Turkey, Syria and Iraq would give the Kurds what they want, a little chunk of each of those countries, the world could have a wonderful new country: Kurdistan. I know, keep dreaming, but why not?
16
1 step forward, 2 steps back: Erdogan will fight ISIS,....., however he will simultaneously attack the Kurds in Syria & Iraq who are our most effective proxy "boots on the ground" confronting ISIS. Erdogan, come on... The Kurds are to you as Indians are to Pakistanies. "Something's happening here. What it is ain't exactly clear....."
3
Turkey is basicaly going to crumble now as it entangling itself with isis and the kurds.by the way i thought the kurds were helping america as they are basically the boots on the ground for america so why is america allowing turkey to bomb them(kurds)???
11
Everyone fears what falls from the air, but there’s nothing like an ambush to shock and confuse. If you can detonate something impressive at both front and rear of a column or base at about the same time, kill as many as possible when they go for the obvious exit routes—and not be greedy about it—get out while their command and communications are still all fouled up, it has value far beyond its military significance. They need a taste of their own medicine. They will fear what they can’t see more than what they don’t hear.
After more than 6,000 American troops died fighting in Iraq and Afghanistan, after we wasted about $5 trillion on the useless wars and after the millions of the locals suffered colossal losses and experienced terrible pain, shouldn’t we finally court martial George W. Bush and Dick Cheney so that no future American president thinks ever again that they are above the law or irresponsible for the terrible personal mistakes and willful ignorance of the US Constitution.
By the way, what article of the Constitution has authorized our government to launch any preemptive war?
The concept of preemptive war is equal to a coup and dismantling of our legal system.
Our laws prevent us from construing a single individual guilty without a due process but we hold the entire countries apriority guilty without any chance to defend their actions or prove their innocence.
It was a classic case of being prosecuted and judged by the same person, the president of the US...
If we don’t honor our Constitution and are not willing to uphold the rule of law in our own country, what are we doing in the Middle East at all?
By the way, what article of the Constitution has authorized our government to launch any preemptive war?
The concept of preemptive war is equal to a coup and dismantling of our legal system.
Our laws prevent us from construing a single individual guilty without a due process but we hold the entire countries apriority guilty without any chance to defend their actions or prove their innocence.
It was a classic case of being prosecuted and judged by the same person, the president of the US...
If we don’t honor our Constitution and are not willing to uphold the rule of law in our own country, what are we doing in the Middle East at all?
10
Obviously you dont know a single thing about the iraq war because if obama left a presense of troops in iraq for a few more years there wouldnt be turmoil in iraq now...go read a little about it
Oh Dan, so sad you feel this way, you are so wrong, and even Bush knew it-- that's why Obama's action as Bush's plan.
Dan,
Trust me, I know a lot about the Iraq War. Just read my another post a few comments below this one. I warned the authorities in advance about all those problems.
I even suggested to Kevin Monroe, Charlotte area director of then-Senator John Edwards to advise his boss to vote against the Iraq War Resolution somewhere in 2002. I told him that if his boss had the guts to vote against the war, he would be considered unpatriotic for a year or two, but would look really smart for eternity afterwards.
If Mr. Edwards ever received and followed that advice, he would have been the president in lieu of Mr. Obama.
But, the situation in Iraq would be the same today because they obviously don't know how to fix the problems and what creates the troubles....
And they don't need any advice because all of them know everything the best and are just perfect humans that make no mistakes...
After Pandora's box is opened, there cannot
Trust me, I know a lot about the Iraq War. Just read my another post a few comments below this one. I warned the authorities in advance about all those problems.
I even suggested to Kevin Monroe, Charlotte area director of then-Senator John Edwards to advise his boss to vote against the Iraq War Resolution somewhere in 2002. I told him that if his boss had the guts to vote against the war, he would be considered unpatriotic for a year or two, but would look really smart for eternity afterwards.
If Mr. Edwards ever received and followed that advice, he would have been the president in lieu of Mr. Obama.
But, the situation in Iraq would be the same today because they obviously don't know how to fix the problems and what creates the troubles....
And they don't need any advice because all of them know everything the best and are just perfect humans that make no mistakes...
After Pandora's box is opened, there cannot
July 28 2015
NATO will convene its North Atlantic Council in Poland in 2016 after having met in Wales in September 2014. As such in the matter of changing times and the complete assessment of the Russian / Ukraine struggle and as well the Wars of Islamic fundamentalist wrecking pervasively on the planet – for this poster and having many years of living in the historic narratives at my senior age – find that what is apparent is for NATO to reinvent itself and become more inclusive for Muslims Nations to join the NATO charter and for the purpose of defining what is a war of nations / states vs criminal police containment in Islamic violence – and unrestricted to worldwide raging violence.
JJA Manhattan, N.Y.
NATO will convene its North Atlantic Council in Poland in 2016 after having met in Wales in September 2014. As such in the matter of changing times and the complete assessment of the Russian / Ukraine struggle and as well the Wars of Islamic fundamentalist wrecking pervasively on the planet – for this poster and having many years of living in the historic narratives at my senior age – find that what is apparent is for NATO to reinvent itself and become more inclusive for Muslims Nations to join the NATO charter and for the purpose of defining what is a war of nations / states vs criminal police containment in Islamic violence – and unrestricted to worldwide raging violence.
JJA Manhattan, N.Y.
1
Undermine the fight against ISIS.
Undermine the possibilities for democracy as Erdogan speaks of arresting members of the HDP.
Undermine the possibility of peace in Turkey as Erdogan incites a war in advance of a snap election, panning to drive the Kurdish and Nationalist votes down.
Undermine the sanction regime against Russia as Turkey continues talks with Puitin on a pipeline.
Obama's policy on Turkey has been and remains an absolute, clueless disaster.
Undermine the possibilities for democracy as Erdogan speaks of arresting members of the HDP.
Undermine the possibility of peace in Turkey as Erdogan incites a war in advance of a snap election, panning to drive the Kurdish and Nationalist votes down.
Undermine the sanction regime against Russia as Turkey continues talks with Puitin on a pipeline.
Obama's policy on Turkey has been and remains an absolute, clueless disaster.
9
Do you remember that one of the many official justifications of the Bush Administration was that the White House occupied Iraq to spread freedom and democracy all over the Middle East?
Of course, this explanation came in right after we turned a corner in Iraq and stop claiming that the non-existing WMD program was a threat to the entire humanity...
Of course, both those explanations were used only after the previous one that the Saddam regime sponsored and financed the 9/11 attacks and the Al Qaeda terrorists was proven equally wrong. Whoever visited Iraq before 2003 knew that a secular Bath Party had nothing in common with the Saudi-originated Wahhabi fundamentalism.
Do you remember that our government foolishly claimed after every Iraqi elections that the new officials would help spread freedom and democracy in that country?
How many trillion dollars have we wasted because George W. Bush was incompetent to understand that Osama bin Laden, al-Zawahri, and the other founders and financiers of the Al Qaeda were the Saudis and the Egyptians, not the Iraqis or the Afghans...
Is that simple fact more than clear now, after the insurgence of the ISIS?
After all those colossal mistakes, it would be nice if the White House issued an official statement clarifying that whatever our government helped spread across the Middle East during the last dozen years ISN’T FREEDOM AND DEMOCRACY AT ALL, just to prevent any potential confusion among the terrified and terrorized locals...
Of course, this explanation came in right after we turned a corner in Iraq and stop claiming that the non-existing WMD program was a threat to the entire humanity...
Of course, both those explanations were used only after the previous one that the Saddam regime sponsored and financed the 9/11 attacks and the Al Qaeda terrorists was proven equally wrong. Whoever visited Iraq before 2003 knew that a secular Bath Party had nothing in common with the Saudi-originated Wahhabi fundamentalism.
Do you remember that our government foolishly claimed after every Iraqi elections that the new officials would help spread freedom and democracy in that country?
How many trillion dollars have we wasted because George W. Bush was incompetent to understand that Osama bin Laden, al-Zawahri, and the other founders and financiers of the Al Qaeda were the Saudis and the Egyptians, not the Iraqis or the Afghans...
Is that simple fact more than clear now, after the insurgence of the ISIS?
After all those colossal mistakes, it would be nice if the White House issued an official statement clarifying that whatever our government helped spread across the Middle East during the last dozen years ISN’T FREEDOM AND DEMOCRACY AT ALL, just to prevent any potential confusion among the terrified and terrorized locals...
4
Question: Why haven't i seen a Single critical article on Turkeys military offensive in the nytimes in the past days? The German newspapers are full of background articles, explaining the crude tactics behind Turkeys military Offensive against the P.K.K.; here: Almost nothing. I really expected more from this paper...
15
Shame on you, Mr. Obama. What a horrible deal with Turkey have you struck there?
6
Harsh, Akis, and of dubious merit. Are you not aware that Turkey is a NATO ally?
If only Erdogan was as wise , noble, and chivalrous as the great Moslem leader Saladin of the Crusades but alas, he is none of these things. Certainly not a Kurd as Saladin was and not virtuous by many accounts . The Turkish papers so reporting certain facts in the past and their reporters are no longer free in this quasi Democracy, NATO Member country. It should be different. Turkey is a great country, of great History whose citizens should be allowed a free press that permits them without manipulation or contrivance to determine the virtue of their government's actions.
6
Wouldn't mind having "a free press that permits them without manipulation or contrivance to determine the virtue of their government's actions." here in the US too.
3
A "great country" of "great history" ? Turkey's history is drenched in the blood of more than 2 million, Armenians, Greeks and Assyrians who were butchered raped and pillaged by the Ottomans, and various Turkish administrations. Turkey's "great history", ISIS, what's the difference ?
5
The United States has had experience with nations that share common enemies with it but are distracted by conflicts with enemies who share the same common enemies with it. The history for those kinds of nations turned out poorly. The best example was China during World War II. Japan had taken control over all of the coastal and highly populated areas of the country. The Nationalist government had retreated so far inland that it had to be supplied over the most difficult land in Eurasia. Despite this the U.S. supplied it well and kept supplying it but the Nationalist government was saving it's resources for the fight with Mao's Communist forces after the Japanese had been defeated, and it drove the American military crazy. The Communist forces at least carried on guerrilla warfare against the Japanese. In the end, it was the Americans defeating Japan in the Pacific Ocean and the Soviet Armies sweeping down from Siberia to capture the Japanese occupation forces in China that defeated the Japanese, not the Chinese. Saving the resources to fight the Communists proved to be a failure, too. The Chinese had not the will to fight, probably due to over a century of being bullied and pushed around by everybody. As for the U.S., we had picked the least willing to risk everything when we took sides with the Nationalist forces under Chiang. We need Turkey and all the other states in the region who want peace and stability in the region but I sense that most of them are risk averse.
1
Just for the informing:
What is the Turkey's new policy is unfortunately nothing to do with ISIS or Syria and Iraq issues.
It is a Turkey's domestic political issue exploited by Erdogan and spilled over the out of borders.
In fact it is a Coupe d'état is playing out in Turkey, Erdogan lost election and this all new thing is the way to win snap election.
Soon USA is going to understand Turkey will not keep fighting with ISIS or starting to undermine operations.
because it is not about ISIS, It is about Election results.
What is the Turkey's new policy is unfortunately nothing to do with ISIS or Syria and Iraq issues.
It is a Turkey's domestic political issue exploited by Erdogan and spilled over the out of borders.
In fact it is a Coupe d'état is playing out in Turkey, Erdogan lost election and this all new thing is the way to win snap election.
Soon USA is going to understand Turkey will not keep fighting with ISIS or starting to undermine operations.
because it is not about ISIS, It is about Election results.
7
Erdogan wants to be the dominant political figure in the Middle East. For decades Turkey had a secular government but it is now heading in the direction of eventually becoming an Islamist dominated country. America appears to be ready to turn their backs on the Kurds in order to curry favor with Erdogan. Shameful.
12
a very wrong direction for the US and the world.
5
While there is ample reason to distrust Erdogan's motives, especially since discrediting Kurds and the Kurdish party in parliament would likely help him win an early election and thereby resuscitate his political fortunes following his recent electoral setback, Turkey does have interests at stake notably to prevent the exploitation by the (Syrian) Kurds of the chaos in Syria and the threat posed by ISIL to realize the apparent goal of taking control of the lands adjacent to Turkey and to push a corridor through to the sea. Further the attack on the PKK did not come out of the blue but followed the murder allegedly by the PKK of four Turkish security officers following the ISIL attack on Kurds at Suruc.
1
You mean it's preferable to have Islamists exploit the chaos? The same ones who go over to ISIS, the organization to whom Ankara has given clandestine support? really?
5
The factions and tribes of the Middle East have their own needs, fears, and agendas. Struggles for territory & dominance span generations, for the sake of future generations and identity, and thus becomes a conflict of civilizations. A conflict of civilizations implies that those who fight do so with cleverness and/or desperation, and fight to win & to dominate, and not to settle.
It is this environment in which the US has delved into, and failed to understand. To say the obvious, American interests and points of view are not the only interests, POV's & agendas in the region among its "allies". However, American discourse pretends that others in the region do have identical mindsets, rather than independent, complex agendas driven by understandable needs and understandable ambitions.
Always taking the M.E. at face value, and thinking of the players there in the simplest naive terms, has resulted in pained surprise, time and time again.
It is this environment in which the US has delved into, and failed to understand. To say the obvious, American interests and points of view are not the only interests, POV's & agendas in the region among its "allies". However, American discourse pretends that others in the region do have identical mindsets, rather than independent, complex agendas driven by understandable needs and understandable ambitions.
Always taking the M.E. at face value, and thinking of the players there in the simplest naive terms, has resulted in pained surprise, time and time again.
2
Once again we throw the Kurds under the bus to placate dubious "ally" Turkey to our own disadvantage. Once again we give "no-brainer" an entirely opposite meaning in a host of situations. How many more times will we do this?
17
Turkey's involvement is not worth the price. They will be attacking our long time ally against ISIL, the Kurds. The Kurds have proven their value in fighting ISIL, and are only fighting for freedom and basic rights in Turkey.
12
The US needs to make it very clear that we will not assist Turkey unless they leave the Kurds alone.
8
The Kurds appear to be the most honorable players in the region and deserve their own nation. We should have listened to Joe Biden and divided Iraq into three autonomous regions right from the start: Shia, Sunni and Kurd.
13
Erdogan has a dangerous ego and has suffered a major set back in the elections. It was a Kurdish party backed by disaffected people opposed to Erdogan's growing authoritarian tendencies. President Obama is in the dizzying state of not knowing what to do. Especially with allies like Saudi Arabia and Turkey. The worst though is after negotiating a tough international nuclear deal with Iran Obama spares no effort in telling everyone how perfidious the Iranians are. I suppose this is to placate the USs rather unsavory allies and to undercut the Republicans in Congress.
2
Mr. Erdogan suffered a setback in last parliamentary elections; he didn't get a majority and Kurds are now in parliament.
He does what many other leaders have done before; he wants to look statesman-like by bombing two separate enemies, ISIS and the Kurds.
It's a dangerous game and it may backfire.
It is also worth noting that the Kurds and Shias backed by Iran have been the most successful parties in this war against ISIS.
He does what many other leaders have done before; he wants to look statesman-like by bombing two separate enemies, ISIS and the Kurds.
It's a dangerous game and it may backfire.
It is also worth noting that the Kurds and Shias backed by Iran have been the most successful parties in this war against ISIS.
9
Were it not for the Kurds and the PKK, Turks would have been dying by the scores already! Turkey, enough, already! Or, would you rather see the Kurds pull out and let the Turkish army defend Turkey? Your own papers said as much a year ago.
12
So now our ally Turkey is bombing our ally the Kurds. Can't think of a better example as to why we should stay out of this whole mess.
54
Yeah real opportunistic decisions to allow United States to operate now; and by also operate against the Kurdish people. Well the big brutal jihadist Sunni kinsman, Saudi Arabia who is doing its bombing and killing in Yemen without any United Nations has blessed these decisions. Another escalations of endless war on multiple fronts. And yet these people are saying Iran is the biggest threat in the Middle East.
3
Can’t we make distinction between the Middle East and America?
America is here, the Middle East is over there.
No Middle Eastern problem is ours. Those are their problems.
What’s going to happen to the ISIS is their choice!
They can sit together and work out a compromise and action plan.
Turkey, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Jordan, UAE and Iran are strong enough to defeat the ISIS that didn’t exist five years ago.
The problem isn’t the ISIS but the fact that the Sunnis, Shiites, Arabs, Turks and Kurds cannot live together.
If they want an advice how to reach such a simple deal, we would be more than glad to help, but they never asked for any input.
If they don’t need an advice, they don’t need our military intervention either.
One of the most stupid things to do is to jump into a middle of uncontrolled bar brawl and voluntarily become a punching bag for everybody.
It’s much better to let them fight each other until they learn how to cooperate and be tolerant.
If there were any tolerant and democratic side in the Middle East, everybody else would join them.
Is there any country over there that doesn’t discriminate against the minorities based on their ethnic and religious origin and hasn’t been involved into the bloody ethnic cleansing or religious intolerance?
Is there any country in the region with an open border policy for everybody like our American approach?
All those wars want to impose very intolerant and exclusive views.
America is here, the Middle East is over there.
No Middle Eastern problem is ours. Those are their problems.
What’s going to happen to the ISIS is their choice!
They can sit together and work out a compromise and action plan.
Turkey, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Jordan, UAE and Iran are strong enough to defeat the ISIS that didn’t exist five years ago.
The problem isn’t the ISIS but the fact that the Sunnis, Shiites, Arabs, Turks and Kurds cannot live together.
If they want an advice how to reach such a simple deal, we would be more than glad to help, but they never asked for any input.
If they don’t need an advice, they don’t need our military intervention either.
One of the most stupid things to do is to jump into a middle of uncontrolled bar brawl and voluntarily become a punching bag for everybody.
It’s much better to let them fight each other until they learn how to cooperate and be tolerant.
If there were any tolerant and democratic side in the Middle East, everybody else would join them.
Is there any country over there that doesn’t discriminate against the minorities based on their ethnic and religious origin and hasn’t been involved into the bloody ethnic cleansing or religious intolerance?
Is there any country in the region with an open border policy for everybody like our American approach?
All those wars want to impose very intolerant and exclusive views.
8
When will President Obama return to calling for the end of the Assad dictatorship? Assad just stated he lacks manpower so further US pressure is needed. While Turkey concentrates on its border the US needs to focus on the contested Syrian territory bordering Jordan and Lebanon. Any effort to eliminate Hezbollah as a force in Syria would lead to the fall of Assad.
Great yes let's jump in and apply pressure! And remind us again who takes over after Assad? Oh yeah, ISIS.
7
Who are you going to replace ASSAD with?
4
America and Turkey are NATO members. Turkey is a Sunni Muslim Country. Bashar Assad, President of Turkey is an Arab Shia Alawi. Turkey wants the fall of Assad's government. That is why Turkey has supported ISIS up until the point that ISIS attacked Turkey. The Turkish government is the stupidest government after Saudi Arabia that is a US ally. The Turks should do what the Iraqis have done. The Iraqis have given the Iraqi Kurds some form of independence while being a part of Iraq. The Turks should do the same. I have visited Istanbul. Istanbul is a vibrant city in Turkey. There are many Turkish Kurds living in Istanbul. Every Turkish Kurd I ran into would proclaim that they are Kurd. Why? Because the Turkish Kurds are 2nd class citizens in their own country. Until the day comes that the Turks treat Turkish Kurds fairly the Turkish Kurdish problem will continue. The Turks should understand that freedom isn't free. It comes with a price. As an American, who love apple pie and the Jesus, I support the liberation of the Kurds.
10
Your love for apple pie and Jesus really gives your support a lot of weight. Telling "The Turks should understand that freedom isn't free." has a nice ring to it. Check the entry for Turks in Wikipedia.
3
I think TUrkey's involvement in the Syrian civil war is for two reasons:
1. They have finally realized that ISIS is a menace to them also. That all the help they gave ISIS did not stop ISIS from turning on them and killing Turkish policeman. Remember Turkey turned a blind eye to border crossing, provided medical care and training grounds to ISIS. It finally came back to bite them.
2. They want to get back at the Kurds with NATO help. They are hoping that NATO will also aid them in their attack on the Kurds. They want to attack the Kurds to break the political alliance that cost them the majority in the last election. Erdogan wants another election so he can get the majority and change the constitution to make himself "emperor". It was the combination of Kurds and other parties that stopped him in the last election and he wants to break that coalition up.
Erdogan is a wily, sneaky individual and we must not give into him. Help him with ISIS - yes. NO to help him with the Kurds.
1. They have finally realized that ISIS is a menace to them also. That all the help they gave ISIS did not stop ISIS from turning on them and killing Turkish policeman. Remember Turkey turned a blind eye to border crossing, provided medical care and training grounds to ISIS. It finally came back to bite them.
2. They want to get back at the Kurds with NATO help. They are hoping that NATO will also aid them in their attack on the Kurds. They want to attack the Kurds to break the political alliance that cost them the majority in the last election. Erdogan wants another election so he can get the majority and change the constitution to make himself "emperor". It was the combination of Kurds and other parties that stopped him in the last election and he wants to break that coalition up.
Erdogan is a wily, sneaky individual and we must not give into him. Help him with ISIS - yes. NO to help him with the Kurds.
7
Thank you Comrade for providing much needed insight into the Kremlins POV. When we want to know what Putin's thinking we can always depend on you to deliver the message.
1
There would be outrage if the English government began detaining Scots, or if Latvia began bombing campaigns against ethnic Russians, yet we allow Turkey - a NATO ally - to behave as reprehensibly as our enemies. Erdogan is hardly better than ISIS or the iron fists of the Middle East. Turkey should be threatened with the suspension of their NATO membership until they remember the definition of "Collective self-defense."
5
Nikko - Do you recall when the English went after the IRA? Similar concept in Turkey. The Kurds have historically had legitimate grievances against Turkey which shouldn't be underplayed. But going after the PKK, a terrorist organization, is similar to the UK going after the IRA. There were plenty of IRA sympathizers including people from a place like Boston who ended up putting dollars in the IRAs hands. Was the UK considered an errant member of NATO as a result of going after the IRA?
Sure, the UK didn't conduct airstrikes but that's only because it controlled Northern Ireland already. There's plenty of Kurdish targets for Turkey to strike in Syria or Northern Iraq. It's only striking the suspected PKK ones.
Sure, the UK didn't conduct airstrikes but that's only because it controlled Northern Ireland already. There's plenty of Kurdish targets for Turkey to strike in Syria or Northern Iraq. It's only striking the suspected PKK ones.
5
Rubbish. It is degrading PYD positions in Syria. There are no PKK positions in Syria.
Turkey is playing a nefarious game in its fight against ISIS. The party chairman Selahattin Demirtas of Turkey’s pro-Kurdish Peoples’ Democratic party (HDP) complains abut his party facing "punishment", because the ruling party, Erdogan's AKP had lost its majority in the parliament, as the HDP won a record number of seats in the June election. On 9 July Erdogan officially tasked Prime Minister Ahmet Davutoglu to form a - coalition - government, within 45 days. Perhaps targeting the PKK, Ankara is trying to ingratiate itself with the anti-Kurdish parties, like the conservative Nationalist Movement Party (MHP), and the center-left Republican People’s Party (CHP).
Erdogan now takes advantage of the conflict with ISIS to demonise the HDP, by launching a witch-hunt against Kurdish politicians "with links to ‘terrorist groups’ to be stripped of immunity from prosecution".
Erdogan now takes advantage of the conflict with ISIS to demonise the HDP, by launching a witch-hunt against Kurdish politicians "with links to ‘terrorist groups’ to be stripped of immunity from prosecution".
3
President Erdogan's ambition for dictatorial control are behind the war escalation, in particular the Turkish attacks on the Kurds.
Erdogan is using the war as a political hammer that will allow him to call and win a snap election that would give his AKP Party a majority in a compliant National Assembly.
Last month's election were an unexpectedly strong rebuke to Erdogan's authoritarian aspirations. His party won 40 percent of the vote instead of the absolute majority he expected and worked toward and he has done nothing to form a coalition government since the election June7.
Instead, from the moment he realized he had lost, he has planned to call a snap Assembly election and he plans to take no chances.
The HDP party, which is Kurdish, was a significant factor in the election, winning 13 percent of the vote as an organized party for the first time. His attacks on Kurdish people outside Turkey and along the border are a cynical attempt to manipulate the snap election when he calls it. If he can force the HDP vote below 10 percent, he will get what he wants, even if nothing else changes.
In fact. Erdogan also is hoping that his easing of relations with the United States will also persuade enough Turkish voters of his good intentions and allow him to gather all the power into his hands.
Erdogan is using the war as a political hammer that will allow him to call and win a snap election that would give his AKP Party a majority in a compliant National Assembly.
Last month's election were an unexpectedly strong rebuke to Erdogan's authoritarian aspirations. His party won 40 percent of the vote instead of the absolute majority he expected and worked toward and he has done nothing to form a coalition government since the election June7.
Instead, from the moment he realized he had lost, he has planned to call a snap Assembly election and he plans to take no chances.
The HDP party, which is Kurdish, was a significant factor in the election, winning 13 percent of the vote as an organized party for the first time. His attacks on Kurdish people outside Turkey and along the border are a cynical attempt to manipulate the snap election when he calls it. If he can force the HDP vote below 10 percent, he will get what he wants, even if nothing else changes.
In fact. Erdogan also is hoping that his easing of relations with the United States will also persuade enough Turkish voters of his good intentions and allow him to gather all the power into his hands.
7
The editorial conveniently ignores that Turkey, rightly or wrongly, attacked PKK targets in Iraq specifically to retaliate for the murder of two Turkish policemen. Why is there no mention of the attack, nor condemnation of the Kurds choosing this time to launch an attack against Turkey to break the peace process? Would any other country - the U.S. included - react differently if a terrorist band used a neighboring country as a base to repeatedly stage attacks? Shame on you NY Times editorial board for such a one-sided editorial.
To the commenters who think it is somehow Turkey's responsibility to lead the fight against ISIL or that Turkey doesn't see the risk posed by ISIL, Turkey is an independent country with its own interests - and it must balance those interests and its international obligations. But at the end of the day, the Turkish government is ultimately responsible only to its own citizens. Tayyip Erdogan is a despicable despot, and the retaliatory attack against PKK was ill-timed to say the least, but, nonetheless, nothing the Turks did in the last week is out of line with what any country in a similar situation and with similar neighbors would do.
To the commenters who think it is somehow Turkey's responsibility to lead the fight against ISIL or that Turkey doesn't see the risk posed by ISIL, Turkey is an independent country with its own interests - and it must balance those interests and its international obligations. But at the end of the day, the Turkish government is ultimately responsible only to its own citizens. Tayyip Erdogan is a despicable despot, and the retaliatory attack against PKK was ill-timed to say the least, but, nonetheless, nothing the Turks did in the last week is out of line with what any country in a similar situation and with similar neighbors would do.
7
Which is why the Turks should stop! They made their point in retaliating. Now, talk to the Kurds and make peace.
1
The PKK headquarters are in Iraq - sounds really funny, but it is true. The Iraqi government, if it is a government, should remove PKK immediately, as it is listed as a terrorist organization by the EU and US. It is like Mexico would house ISIS and tells the US, Mexico and Us are friends.
1
From Turkey, this bombing of Kurdish PKK and the arrest of hundreds of Kurdish sympathizers together with the threat to the newly elected Kurdish parlamentarians of the HDP clearly reflects Erdogan's continued search for more power. He will use these tactics, not against ISIL but rather to raise his election possibilities of a majority in the coming by-election. His strategy is clear: an opportunity to break down and anull peace negotiation and foment disquietude in the nation. A new palace needs to be maintained by an autocrat.
Where is any mention in this article about Turkey's long sought agenda and ours as well....the removal of Syria's president. Assad? Was regime change in Syria part of the negotiations? I have no doubt this mission creep will include this as a priority.
1
Turkey, particularly under the present government, has been a less than certain ally. Up to now it has shown little interest in striking ISIS even though the organization is a destabilizing force in the Middle East and is seeking to establish on its border. Now that it has agreed to take some albeit limited action against ISIS, it also takes the opportunity to hit Kurdish forces which have, thus far, represented the only effective ground force against the terrorist group.
If nothing else this development demonstrates clearly, as if there was any doubt, how perilous and complex the current conflict is in the ME and why the simplistic nonsense spouted by Republican hawks displays a dangerous combination of ignorance and naivete.
If nothing else this development demonstrates clearly, as if there was any doubt, how perilous and complex the current conflict is in the ME and why the simplistic nonsense spouted by Republican hawks displays a dangerous combination of ignorance and naivete.
3
PARTNERS FOR PEACE? When I read of Turkey's bombing of the Kurds, it put me in mind of the notorious quote of a disgraced president, Richard Nixon who , when asked why the US supported such horrible regimes, responded, They may be bastards, but they're our bastards. While I doubt strongly that Obama would agree with the Turkish attacks on the Kurds, I fervently hope that there is some backchannel pushing the Turks to stop. Some might argue that the Kurds display more logical and pro-democratic action in the Mideast than other ethnic groups in the region. If that's the case, we need to find a way to make them our allies--to protect their interests. We supported the Taliban in Afghanistan and it came back to bite us. If we back the wrong group in the current conflicts, our mistakes will come back to bite us again.
4
A thought that sometimes crosses my mind might be related to why Turkey has seemed to be reluctant to tackle ISIS, prioritizing it below Assad and the Kurds in Turkey's strategic interests. The self-proclaimed caliph has chosen the nom de guerre, " Abdul Bakr al-Baghdadi." Since Abdul Bakr was the first (and Arab) caliph, and Baghdad was the first seate of the (Arab) caliphate --- the Turks had a sultanate, not a caliphate, it's conceivable to me that Erdogan's clique believes ISIS will, in the short term, confine its operations to Arab territories south of the Turkish Border. It may be that ISIS will operate inside Turkey only to avenge/pre-empt any anti-ISIS operations organized inside Turkey --- that seems to have been the case so far.
1
This comment by semi ignorant, internet gadfly, though in mind/heart I beg humanity (as in humanism) and deity (metaphysical beliefs/possibilities) to get the concept/suggestion right/effective.
If the Turks & Kurds should somehow devise/figure-out a win-win or perhaps detente, then it could be a model for nearly hopeless/intractable disputes.
Ongoing tragedies come to mind, and apologies for not pairing such other complicated, wretched conflicts as of Ukraine, Sudan, and Syria.
Israel and Palestine.
India and Pakistan.
If the Turks & Kurds should somehow devise/figure-out a win-win or perhaps detente, then it could be a model for nearly hopeless/intractable disputes.
Ongoing tragedies come to mind, and apologies for not pairing such other complicated, wretched conflicts as of Ukraine, Sudan, and Syria.
Israel and Palestine.
India and Pakistan.
Kurds are the only capable fighting force opposing the Islamic State. Kurds are pro Western and the only progressist people in the Middle East. Turkey -- NATO member country -- uses ISIS as a pretext to resume its war against the Kurds.
Meanwhile, the White House continues to sell weapons to Turks, Kurds and moderate jihadists.
Middle East politics continues to be a puzzle. In that part of the world, only gray. Impossible to clearly distinguish good from bad guys, friends from foes. On Foggy Bottom, only bad choice policies to be presented to POTUS.
Meanwhile, the White House continues to sell weapons to Turks, Kurds and moderate jihadists.
Middle East politics continues to be a puzzle. In that part of the world, only gray. Impossible to clearly distinguish good from bad guys, friends from foes. On Foggy Bottom, only bad choice policies to be presented to POTUS.
23
"Turkey -- NATO member country -- uses ISIS as a pretext to resume its war against the Kurds."
I am afraid you have it backwards: Kurds used the ISIL-influenced (or directed) suicide attack in Suruc as a pretext to resume PKK's war against Turkey (by blaming Turkey for failing to protect the students in Suruc, many of whom were reportedly ethnic Kurds from Turkey, from a suicide bomber). Then Turkey specifically responded to Kurds' murder of two of its uniformed officers. No PKK attack on Turkey, no Turkish retaliation. Simple as that. We can argue about whether retaliation is helpful (I don't believe it is) or whether it was poorly timed (definitely, imo) but you can't say Turks broke the peace process when it was the Kurds who did. Nor can Turkey be faulted for defending its borders against terrorists from both PKK and ISIL.
I am afraid you have it backwards: Kurds used the ISIL-influenced (or directed) suicide attack in Suruc as a pretext to resume PKK's war against Turkey (by blaming Turkey for failing to protect the students in Suruc, many of whom were reportedly ethnic Kurds from Turkey, from a suicide bomber). Then Turkey specifically responded to Kurds' murder of two of its uniformed officers. No PKK attack on Turkey, no Turkish retaliation. Simple as that. We can argue about whether retaliation is helpful (I don't believe it is) or whether it was poorly timed (definitely, imo) but you can't say Turks broke the peace process when it was the Kurds who did. Nor can Turkey be faulted for defending its borders against terrorists from both PKK and ISIL.
2
One again, the Turks will never give up an opportunity to crush the Kurds if they can do it without having to be held accountable for their attempts at limiting the Kurd's desire for political independence.
This is not the first time that the Turks have used this sort of deception.
And, sadly, this will not be the last.
This is not the first time that the Turks have used this sort of deception.
And, sadly, this will not be the last.
3
If you will have any ethical argument, you cannot favor one terrorist group over another. PKK does not represent Kurds, it is a NATO-designated terrorist group which killed thousands of innocent civilians including babies, elderly and women since 1980s.
2
Labeling an organization as "terrorist" is not sufficient to end political and ethical arguments.
Exactly right. Turks of all ethnicities have been attacked by PKK terrorists for more than three decades. Where was the global outrage? There was no RTE or ruling AKP to blame. Only a terrorist organization hell-bent on forcing Turkey to capitulate at the end of a gun barrel. Finally, Turkey decides to defend herself but is condemned? Turkey is a vibrant, diverse, peaceful, secular democracy in an ocean of religious and ethnic chaos. Turkey has every right to defend herself.
1
Turkey has it's own national interests and values with a unique historical perspective. In the middle of 320 million Arabs, 80 million Iranians, 35 million Kurds and 8 million Israelis the 80 million Turkish heirs of the ancient Hittite Empire and the more recent Ottoman Turkish Empire are trying for their own advantaged perch.
The Sunni Muslim faith of the Turks, Arabs and Kurds has not been enough to bridge the ethnic divide. ISIS/ISIL, like al Qaeda is a Sunni Muslim Arab based movement. Unless and until the Sunni Muslim Arab gulf states like Saudi Arabia and Kuwait and the most populous Arab nation turn on ISIS/ISIL no significant progress can be made. Moreover, the secular military dictators and royal theocratic fossil fuel autocrats of the Arab world create and nurture extremism.
Then there is the Turkish conflict with the Shia Muslim Arab majority in Iraq and the Shia Muslim Persian majority in Iran. Finally, there is the European Zionist Jewish majority in Israel and the Sunni Muslim Arab Palestinian minority under occupation, blockade/siege, exile and 2nd class citizenship that has conflicts with Turkey.
Turkey is a member of NATO. Turkey seeks inclusion in the EU and EZ.
What tactics and strategies would best fit American national interests and values in the midst of this historical ethnic sectarian demographic geographic maelstrom is not easily nor clearly determinable.
The Sunni Muslim faith of the Turks, Arabs and Kurds has not been enough to bridge the ethnic divide. ISIS/ISIL, like al Qaeda is a Sunni Muslim Arab based movement. Unless and until the Sunni Muslim Arab gulf states like Saudi Arabia and Kuwait and the most populous Arab nation turn on ISIS/ISIL no significant progress can be made. Moreover, the secular military dictators and royal theocratic fossil fuel autocrats of the Arab world create and nurture extremism.
Then there is the Turkish conflict with the Shia Muslim Arab majority in Iraq and the Shia Muslim Persian majority in Iran. Finally, there is the European Zionist Jewish majority in Israel and the Sunni Muslim Arab Palestinian minority under occupation, blockade/siege, exile and 2nd class citizenship that has conflicts with Turkey.
Turkey is a member of NATO. Turkey seeks inclusion in the EU and EZ.
What tactics and strategies would best fit American national interests and values in the midst of this historical ethnic sectarian demographic geographic maelstrom is not easily nor clearly determinable.
2
Only about half of Israeli Jews have European roots. The other half have roots in majority-Muslim countries (the Arab countries, North Africa, Turkey, or Iran).
blackmamba, you always find a way to get a jab in and Israel and the Jews. Do your research. Military and financial cooperation has steadily continued between Turkey and Israel despite recent political tensions between the two countries. Historically, it was the Turks who welcomed Jews to their lands after getting expelled by Spain and Portugal. Turkey knows it can trust Israel far more than any Arab neighbor regardless what they blab about Palestine. But no, for you the Jews and Israel are evil and are probably funding ISIS for profit.
The Turks are not the heirs to the Hittites. They were invading hordes that pillaged, plundered, raped and sacked their way from Central Asia into present day Turkey. Much of eastern Turkey is actually occupied Armenian and Kurdish lands
The time has come to become realistic on Iraq. For at least several thousand years, Constantiople and Persia have been at war. There never was a single government along the Tigris and Euphrates until 1921, not even in Mesopotamian times. Constantiople (Istanbul) had hegemony over northern "Iraq," Persia over southern. That is why the North became Sunni and the South Shiite.
Turkey with 80 million people and a NATO army must re-establish hegemony over the Sunni areas. Even an invasion with its troops would be desirable.
The Kurds are a major source of support of ISIS. They have seized the Northern oil fields of the Sunnis and threaten to invade other Sunni cities. The Sunnis hate and fear the Kurds as much as or more than the Shiites. They have to cling to ISIS as the only power that can protect them.
The Kurds need to have autonomy in their area, but with a UN-peace force in the Kirkuk area to make it an international city.
But tiny Israel wants to be the great power in the region. It doesn't want Turkey in Iraq. It wanted the overthrow of Saddam even though he was the bulwark against Iran, and now it pretends Iran is an existential threat. Netanyahu wants unrest in the Middle East to justify South African like apartheid without the sanctions it should produce. He doesn't want an international city in Kirkuk and hence supports Kurdish imperialism because it would be a precedent for Jerusalem.
The United States should become a great power again and end this.
Turkey with 80 million people and a NATO army must re-establish hegemony over the Sunni areas. Even an invasion with its troops would be desirable.
The Kurds are a major source of support of ISIS. They have seized the Northern oil fields of the Sunnis and threaten to invade other Sunni cities. The Sunnis hate and fear the Kurds as much as or more than the Shiites. They have to cling to ISIS as the only power that can protect them.
The Kurds need to have autonomy in their area, but with a UN-peace force in the Kirkuk area to make it an international city.
But tiny Israel wants to be the great power in the region. It doesn't want Turkey in Iraq. It wanted the overthrow of Saddam even though he was the bulwark against Iran, and now it pretends Iran is an existential threat. Netanyahu wants unrest in the Middle East to justify South African like apartheid without the sanctions it should produce. He doesn't want an international city in Kirkuk and hence supports Kurdish imperialism because it would be a precedent for Jerusalem.
The United States should become a great power again and end this.
2
What evidence do you have that the Kurds are accepting of the principles of ISIS?
Please be specific.
The Kurds have long desired their own political independence? Their involvement here is nothing less than their interests in achieving that goal.
Please be specific.
The Kurds have long desired their own political independence? Their involvement here is nothing less than their interests in achieving that goal.
1
The Kurds are the only reliable infantry fighting ISIS. Without ground forces, victory is impossible. By attacking the Kurds, the Turks are continuing their policy of rendering ISIS vital support. In failing to denounce this move, the Obama administration is backstabbing our most essential ally in this fight.
7
Kurds are attacking Turkey for over 30 years from Iraq and Syria. PKK has its headquarters in Iraq and planning attacks within Turkey from Iraq. PKK is recognized as a terrorist organization by EU and US. ISIS is a by-product of the Kurdish policy of nation building. The fight with ISIS is part of this reality.
2
It's not just the Turks who fail to see any unusual threat from ISIS, it's just about everyone in the region who fails to see what kind of a threat they pose. The normal kind of living that most people enjoy, now, has been strange in that little corner of the world for it's lack of every day encounters with human monsters twisted into predators by countless injustices and many atrocities. In that kind of context, ISIS is only unusual by their claim to religious piety even as they conduct themselves like every other group of killers preying upon others. There is no hope in that region amongst anybody for a life without horror and brutality, anymore.
Maybe Turks see the threat from ISIL but have to balance the threat against other threats and risks, and act accordingly (in their own - as opposed to our or anyone else's - best interests, as best as they can).
Disappointed by the NYT today. This editorial leaves out a very important piece of context that will change your perspective on Turkey's actions.
Sequence of events starting with the suicide bombing in Suruc:
1 - July 20 - Alleged Turkish ISIS/ISIL member(s) / sympathizer(s) carry out suicide bombing killing 32 people in Suruc
2 - July 22 - Two Turkish police offers murdered by Kurdistan Workers' Party (PKK). This is not an allegation. PKK openly took responsibility for this action. Link: http://bit.ly/1IoSW2J
3 - July 24 - Turkey begins airstrikes on ISIS and PKK positions in Syria / northern Iraq
What's not to understand based on the sequence of events described above? Stunning how the NYT editorial board failed to mention #2. The editorial makes it sound like Turkey just decided one day to toss the Kurdish peace process aside and start bombing PKK positions for the heck of it. What would the U.S. do if the sequence described above happened to it? Think about it.
Sequence of events starting with the suicide bombing in Suruc:
1 - July 20 - Alleged Turkish ISIS/ISIL member(s) / sympathizer(s) carry out suicide bombing killing 32 people in Suruc
2 - July 22 - Two Turkish police offers murdered by Kurdistan Workers' Party (PKK). This is not an allegation. PKK openly took responsibility for this action. Link: http://bit.ly/1IoSW2J
3 - July 24 - Turkey begins airstrikes on ISIS and PKK positions in Syria / northern Iraq
What's not to understand based on the sequence of events described above? Stunning how the NYT editorial board failed to mention #2. The editorial makes it sound like Turkey just decided one day to toss the Kurdish peace process aside and start bombing PKK positions for the heck of it. What would the U.S. do if the sequence described above happened to it? Think about it.
6
Event #1 and #2 has been carried out by Turkish Deep State using the prozies in ISIS and PKK or KCK.
Actually ,Yes Erdogan intentionally tossed away the Kurdish peace process.
Actually ,Yes Erdogan intentionally tossed away the Kurdish peace process.
3
Thanks, Jim. How this editorial could have been written without reference to last week's suicide bombing is beyond me!
2
32 peace activists murdered vs two policemen Jailing of 100s.. WHERE is Turkish justice? HOW TO WIN AN ERDOGAN NEW MAJORITY!
Nice one sided article. There is no mention of the assassination of two police officers by PKK to retaliate against Ankara for Daesh's bombing in Suruc last week. The bombings of the PKK bases by Turkish air force were in retaliation of the killings. There is also no mention of the fact that PKK is a terrorist organization. So, you are advocating use of one terrorist organization to route another terrrorist organization (IS). What a mess that we find ourselves in. if only there was a time machine to go back to 03 to stop bush from leading us to invasion of Iraq to stop us from having the blood of hundreds of thousands of people and the hatred of millions. if anyone can say that we are more secure b/c of our actions since 9/11 they are lying to themselves.
8
This seems to be one of those good-news/bad-news situations. Turkey erred grievously after World War I in the handling of its Armenian cititzens. It appears to be repeating these errors today vis a vis its Kurdish population.
The good news is, of course, that Turkey if finally taking on its responsibilities in the struggle against ISIS.
Can we hope for the recognition of an independent Kurdistan? The Kurds seem to be the only effectual people in the region. The Kurds at least have a valid claim to "nationhood", something the folks in Syria, Iraq and Jordan sorely lack. Perhaps the old Ottoman millet system should have been left intact. It certainly seemed to have kept the Sunni and Shia factions from trying to cut each other's throats.
Lebanon and Israel remain as Christian and Jewish enclaves respectfully. In an ideal world, of course, all of the peoples in the Middle East would live and work together in a secular federation granting freedom of religion and mutual respect of diferences. Arabic would be a unifying factor in such a federation.
The good news is, of course, that Turkey if finally taking on its responsibilities in the struggle against ISIS.
Can we hope for the recognition of an independent Kurdistan? The Kurds seem to be the only effectual people in the region. The Kurds at least have a valid claim to "nationhood", something the folks in Syria, Iraq and Jordan sorely lack. Perhaps the old Ottoman millet system should have been left intact. It certainly seemed to have kept the Sunni and Shia factions from trying to cut each other's throats.
Lebanon and Israel remain as Christian and Jewish enclaves respectfully. In an ideal world, of course, all of the peoples in the Middle East would live and work together in a secular federation granting freedom of religion and mutual respect of diferences. Arabic would be a unifying factor in such a federation.
1
Two thoughts:
1] Erdogan's party just lost its majority due to the emergence of a new Kurdish-Liberal coalition party. He can call a new, snap election, and will, if he thinks his AKP will win. Attacking the PKK, and more importantly, suffering the inevitable reprisals by its military, may well lead to a nationalist reaction by Turkish voters. The US government has sold out the Kurds, our ONLY reliable, boots-on-the-ground ally against ISIS & Al Qaeda, to their local enemies twice in living memory. I'd hate to think our government had indicated to the Turks that we wouldn't mind their attacking the PKK in return for our use of Incirlik air base and Turkish air attacks against ISIS.
2] Our only effective, boots-on-the-ground ally are the Kurds, a motivated, tight-knit, ethno-religiously cohesive nationality. We are FINALLY giving them some arms and air support, and they are scoring actual military victories. So WHY in the name of all that's good & holy are we and our allies not arming the Druse in Syria? They are, just like the Kurds, trying to defend their turf against ISIS, and the Assad regime has pulled out most of its defensive forces and heavy weapons. The Druse are desperate to defend their villages, and they seem to be getting no support from our side at all. Could we, the good guys, please, just this once, not behave like feckless dweebs?
1] Erdogan's party just lost its majority due to the emergence of a new Kurdish-Liberal coalition party. He can call a new, snap election, and will, if he thinks his AKP will win. Attacking the PKK, and more importantly, suffering the inevitable reprisals by its military, may well lead to a nationalist reaction by Turkish voters. The US government has sold out the Kurds, our ONLY reliable, boots-on-the-ground ally against ISIS & Al Qaeda, to their local enemies twice in living memory. I'd hate to think our government had indicated to the Turks that we wouldn't mind their attacking the PKK in return for our use of Incirlik air base and Turkish air attacks against ISIS.
2] Our only effective, boots-on-the-ground ally are the Kurds, a motivated, tight-knit, ethno-religiously cohesive nationality. We are FINALLY giving them some arms and air support, and they are scoring actual military victories. So WHY in the name of all that's good & holy are we and our allies not arming the Druse in Syria? They are, just like the Kurds, trying to defend their turf against ISIS, and the Assad regime has pulled out most of its defensive forces and heavy weapons. The Druse are desperate to defend their villages, and they seem to be getting no support from our side at all. Could we, the good guys, please, just this once, not behave like feckless dweebs?
4
Turkey is just like every other player in the region, too preoccupied with it's own priorities to form cooperative efforts to address regional priorities. The Kurds are separatists who have fought the Turks for a long time to have their own nation which includes parts of Turkey. While we consider ISIS a threat to world stability the Turks just see another bad actor not any different than any other in the region. So they attack the only other group of considerable size willing to actually fight ISIS without a second thought.
19
"...lawmakers appear resigned to allowing the Obama administration to slide ever more deeply into a complex war." Of course they do. With the majority of the Congress having done little in the last seven years other than trying to derail anything the President does or proposes, allowing the country to become more involved in a no win war during his presidency is a godsend to them.
17
Bombing the P.K.K. Not OK!
The Kurds have been our allies against ISIS. Like Iran they have been fighting ISIS with us for some time. We need to express our disapproval of Turkey boming our firends, the Kurds, in the strongest possible (non-military) way. Then after we impose some sanctions on Turkey, we should get out of that whole territory. Let IRAN handle ISIS. They can and they well. We need to leave there and we need to send Turkey a strong message that it not OK to bomb the P.K K.
The Kurds have been our allies against ISIS. Like Iran they have been fighting ISIS with us for some time. We need to express our disapproval of Turkey boming our firends, the Kurds, in the strongest possible (non-military) way. Then after we impose some sanctions on Turkey, we should get out of that whole territory. Let IRAN handle ISIS. They can and they well. We need to leave there and we need to send Turkey a strong message that it not OK to bomb the P.K K.
3
Would you please clarify: Why would you think Iranian control of the entire region is good for peace? Do you think Israel or Saudi Arabia would allow Iran to actually have ground troops in Iraq or Syria, even if only on the pretext of fighting ISIL? Do you think that Iran would treat Kurds differently than Turkey, considering that Iran likewise has a restive Kurdish minority seeking to carve out a piece of Iran for its own independent state? Are you familiar with the history of the PKK over the past 40 years? Thanks!
The PKK is listed as a terrorist organization by the US. Turkey has been a US ally for a long long time and it has the biggest stick in the neighborhood. We should be a good ally and support Turkey. Not some local thugs.
The US government is unfortunately about to make a dirty, dirty deal with Erdogan's Turkey. Erdogan is only interesting in destroying any Kurdish opposition and will pretend to intervene against IS only so long as he gets Obama's support to do what he likes with the Kurds. Erdogan is vying for a new vote and the majority he needs to make himself Turkey's latest dictator. Obama is a complete fool if he swallows this. The Kurds have been the ONLY effective allies of the US in the war against IS and Obama needs to honour that with more weapons deliveries and more active support. On top of that, the Kurds seem to be largely free from Islamist leanings, particularly the socialist oriented PKK, whereas Erdogan's party, the AKP, are becoming more Islamist by the month. If US support for the Kurds angers Erdogan so be it; he has few other options than to just accept it or risk being marginalised in NATO, and fear of the Russians will keep Turkey firmly in NATO, at all costs. It is about time Erdogan was punished for his dirty politics.
41
The Erdogan administration considers the PKK enemy number one, and has done so for years.His administration also considers all other minorities with suspicion (Armenians, Assyrians, Greeks...). Being a Sunni nation, Turkey is and will remain reluctant to deal effectively with ISIS.
Unless the US takes a strong moral position in support of the Kurds, the situation in the area will go from bad to worse..with ho solution insight
Unless the US takes a strong moral position in support of the Kurds, the situation in the area will go from bad to worse..with ho solution insight
1
Some of these comments are putting the Kurdish people, PKK and YPG in one big basket. Nothing can be further from the truth. I grew up in Turkey with many peaceful, and activist Kurdish friends. The Kurds deserve self-governance. PKK, on the otherhand, is a terrorist organization that has raided Turkish villages in eastern Turkey and terrorized civilians for decades. Just a week ago they killed two innocent police officers at their own HOMES as "retaliation" to the Turkish government-- is this not terrorism?
Acquating PKK with the Kurdish population in general is similar to acquating Hamas with the entire Palastenian population.
Turkey needs to go a long ways to make good with its Kurdish citizens. But, this has nothing to do with attacking terroist PKK positions. PKK is recognized as a terrorist organization by TR, US, UK and EU. Turkey has a right to defend herself.
As for YPG, I do not know much about them, and cannot comment.
Acquating PKK with the Kurdish population in general is similar to acquating Hamas with the entire Palastenian population.
Turkey needs to go a long ways to make good with its Kurdish citizens. But, this has nothing to do with attacking terroist PKK positions. PKK is recognized as a terrorist organization by TR, US, UK and EU. Turkey has a right to defend herself.
As for YPG, I do not know much about them, and cannot comment.
5
Absolutely correct. Ultimately though, many of the people commenting on American sites only have a well-rounded knowledge of ISIS, understandably so. The only issue with this is that the PKK is a relatively unknown entity to these audiences, and not just to the audiences, but from what I can tell, many of the authors of pieces similar to this one. So these sites go ahead and present a well-known evil pitted against a relatively unknown group, and it's expected that people will support the unknown--they are, for all intents and purposes, the "good guys". Unconsciously, in the minds of people from other regions of the world, why does it matter who the group is as long as they're helping to serve the American and/or mostly global interest and do not have a history of attacking any countries other than Turkey? They're serving a purpose, exceptionally well I might add. Honestly, I just wish the AKP would grow up and recognize Kurdish rights + stop fooling around with ISIS, and the PKK (while intentions are noble but the methods not so much) needs to stop getting in the way of progress. The HDP party accomplished something incredible by breaking the threshold in the June elections. This past week has seriously put that hard work in jeopardy.
1
People in the Middle East are fighting for survival. We are fighting for ideology.
Imagine that during the 1850's Jayhawk Wars between those who claimed Kansas for slavery and those who wanted slavery banned in that territory, England or France or Russia invaded, building bases, dispatching troops, and dropping bombs from weather balloons.
The anger you just felt is appropriate.
Whether the people in the Middle Eastern cauldron have a good handle on reality or are schizoid nuts is not our call. We wish them all well, but siding with some of them by killing others is equivalent to the fantastic belief that prayer actually works.
From 1945 until 1991, the United States faced an existential threat in the nuclear-tipped missiles pointed at us from silos in the Soviet Union. We learned to live with the possibility of immediate destruction. We were concerned, but we didn't whine about it all day long.
These days, hundreds of god-addled thugs have captured a swath of the Middle East that has fallen to countless bands of god-addled thugs before them. They strut and commit modest mayhem, and our representatives wet their pants and moan about how if we don't stop them there they'll land next in Omaha.
Turkey has the right to make its own decisions. We needn't agree (I believe that rejecting the Kurds' desire for a nation when the Powers allocated the MIddle East guaranteed strife), but unless we are the ultimate overseers of every parcel of land on Earth, we should back off.
Imagine that during the 1850's Jayhawk Wars between those who claimed Kansas for slavery and those who wanted slavery banned in that territory, England or France or Russia invaded, building bases, dispatching troops, and dropping bombs from weather balloons.
The anger you just felt is appropriate.
Whether the people in the Middle Eastern cauldron have a good handle on reality or are schizoid nuts is not our call. We wish them all well, but siding with some of them by killing others is equivalent to the fantastic belief that prayer actually works.
From 1945 until 1991, the United States faced an existential threat in the nuclear-tipped missiles pointed at us from silos in the Soviet Union. We learned to live with the possibility of immediate destruction. We were concerned, but we didn't whine about it all day long.
These days, hundreds of god-addled thugs have captured a swath of the Middle East that has fallen to countless bands of god-addled thugs before them. They strut and commit modest mayhem, and our representatives wet their pants and moan about how if we don't stop them there they'll land next in Omaha.
Turkey has the right to make its own decisions. We needn't agree (I believe that rejecting the Kurds' desire for a nation when the Powers allocated the MIddle East guaranteed strife), but unless we are the ultimate overseers of every parcel of land on Earth, we should back off.
12
"Imagine that during the 1850's Jayhawk Wars between those who claimed Kansas for slavery and those who wanted slavery banned in that territory, England or France or Russia invaded, building bases, dispatching troops, and dropping bombs from weather balloons."
Imagine that same scenario, only the "invading" nations were African. Makes for a slightly different picture, huh? The fact is that ISIS has declared war on the West, with a specific daily threat to America—and Americans—so the US does have an obligation to respond.
Imagine that same scenario, only the "invading" nations were African. Makes for a slightly different picture, huh? The fact is that ISIS has declared war on the West, with a specific daily threat to America—and Americans—so the US does have an obligation to respond.
President Obama and NATO have decided that Kurdish lives don't matter, its more important to use the bases in Turkey. This is the reset we get in the Middle East?
2
The Turks did not bomd Kurds fighting in Syria; the staging areas used to infiltrate and carry out terrorism inside Turkish borders were the targets. If PKK stops violence inside Turkish territory, they would not be targeted; it is that simple. Both the US State Dept and the NATO Secretary General understand this very well.
2
Let's call that one official story line, nothing to the with Erdogan's plans which is going on now.
1
There are at least three attacks that PKK owned up to in the last two days. None of this can possibly help HDP. If Erdogan pulls off an early election HDP will increase its share of the vote with PKK abstaining from violence, otherwise it is playing into his hands.
What is amazing is that US policy makers did not see this coming [or did they?]. The recent killings there was a pretext for them to get into this war with cover by the Americans. In the late 1950s and 60s, during the nuclear arms race, Turnkey allied with the US, but as we were reminded then when we entered the country, the only reason we were there is that they hated us a little less than they hated the Russians, their neighbors to the north, and the Kurds, their neighbors to the east.
They have always been an ally of convenience, not principle. Did Obama's people, being the non-military service millennials, not know this obvious fact?
They have always been an ally of convenience, not principle. Did Obama's people, being the non-military service millennials, not know this obvious fact?
The battle against ISIS is taking a new dimension on Turkey joining in the effort - the issue of PKK and Turkey relation is an irritant in this effort. American perspective of PKK and Turkey relation is a manageable conflict, for many years it existed and carefully controlled by the Western countries.
The essential element of fight against ISIS is air capability supported by a ground force - PKK provides that. This recently announced effort of free zone on Syria and Turkey boarder is an important battle to finally push the ISIS out of Syria.
Simultaneously, the Iraqi force supported by air capability is pushing the ISIS from the south and very quickly ISIS will be sandwiched from both side with their supply line disconnected. The modern battle is fought on the logistic side not on the battle field only.
Already, frustration in ISIS leadership is getting visible - yesterday I read Jihadi John is trying to escape from Syria. The subtle sign of leadership breakdown is visible.
The essential element of fight against ISIS is air capability supported by a ground force - PKK provides that. This recently announced effort of free zone on Syria and Turkey boarder is an important battle to finally push the ISIS out of Syria.
Simultaneously, the Iraqi force supported by air capability is pushing the ISIS from the south and very quickly ISIS will be sandwiched from both side with their supply line disconnected. The modern battle is fought on the logistic side not on the battle field only.
Already, frustration in ISIS leadership is getting visible - yesterday I read Jihadi John is trying to escape from Syria. The subtle sign of leadership breakdown is visible.
1
The Kurds were dealt a bad hand by colonial boundary drawing. They are the fourth largest ethnicity in the Middle East and they are without a state. Short of establishing a state, I'm not sure how this can ever end. But that might be said of conflict in the region over all...
1
How about the hispanics in some of the US states such as CA or TX. If they rise up to combine some of those states with some part of the northern mexico, then we will see what the fed. government in the US would do! Not every minority or ethnicity has to have a separate land. If you go with that idea, all of the borders in all of the countries in the world must be continously shifting.
1
there is a great perception operation going on in turkey. Turkey and Kurds made an truce three years ago. pkk attacked 12 turkish dams, killed 47 officers ,kidnapped 2500 children during this truce period. but governement did nothing. after US started to support kurds in this area they gained strenght. after erdoğans party lost elections by having 45 percent of all votes. no one made coalition with them. and chaos started. Kurds have their party in parliement they got 11 percent of total votes. everyone thought it is good for a democracy but things didnt occured like that. kurdish part didnt bring peace. selehaddin demirtaş (head of the hdp) whoose brother is a one of the rulers of pkk declined truce. and that day 38 pollice officers killed and 20 turkish militants (greywolfs) killed one of the militant is just 14 years old. pkk started to plant bombs. and after that day turkey declared war on pkk. we are majorly attacking pkk instead of isis because isis is not strong in turkey but pkk is a very big problem. in Turkey police cannot use firepower unless there is gun fights. pkk kills police officers with molotov cocktails and military styled firework. So Turkey started to bomb pkks headquarters.yesterday 1 colonel burned by pkk. everything is going very bad. and if we start to talk about mind operation. Western powers are making proganda of kurds in this are telling them freedom fighters etc. but why they didnt talk about turkmen and arab genocide they made.
1
For the US, the enemy is ISIS. Its allies are Israel and Turkey. For the Turks the real enemy are Kurdish groups like the PKK, not ISIS. Israel's enemies are Iran and Assad. However, Iran, Assad and the Kurds are fighting ISIS. The whole situation is a mess.
The British press suspects that the US allowed Turkey to attack the Kurds in return for help against ISIS. They believe this could be another colossal blunder.
The British press suspects that the US allowed Turkey to attack the Kurds in return for help against ISIS. They believe this could be another colossal blunder.
2
This seems to be an accurate observation. There seems to be deal with the US and Turkey to exterminate the Kurdish terrorist group. The PKK is a designated terrrorist group by NATO.
2
We should talk to the Turks and arm the Kurds.
2
Turkey a member of Nato & an American Ally,optimizes the comment, that with friends like this we don't need enemies.The only effective fighting force against ISIS in Iraq are the Kurds & Turkey is bent on destroying them.Here again our foreign policy is ridiculously inconsistent, as it is throughout the Middle East.We find ourselves supporting & fighting Sunnis, & Shiites at the same time. & now we are in bed with Turkey who's history of Genocide is well known. They murdered the Armenians & now they are attempting to do the same to the Kurds, simply because, they want a State of itheir own. If this was Israel the world would be marching through the streets,& demonstrating against Turkey, & Obama would be criticizing them.Once again our foreign policy is inconsistent .
2
Turkey is not destroying the Kurds. Turkey is diligently and patiently fighting with the terrorist group PKK who has killled thousands of innocent people, babies, elderly, women, and kids over many decades.
Never trust the Turkish government. They helped create ISIS and everyone knows it. Next they will bomb Armenia because they are not Sunni.
2
The efforts between the US and Turkey were not concerted at the beginning of the Syria issue. The US also favored supporting the separatists groups before ISIS took over. With better communication and coordination, we will be cleaning all of the terrorist factions from the Northern Iraq and Syria. This includes both Kurdish and Islamist terrorists. The PKK is a NATO-designated terrorist group which killed thousands of innocent civilians.
Not everyone "knows" it. I know that ISIS is a by-product of Kurds' ethnic cleansing policy of Arabs.
The Middle Eastern Religious Civil War sure has become a messy affair...
I am almost convinced today that the AKP Turkish government has decided to ignore the will of the Turkish people - expressed in the June elections - and open a general war against the Kurds - wherever they are - under the guise of "war on terror".
To cover its designs, the Turkish government has launched some rather symbolic air attacks on Daesh (IS) and called on a NATO meeting to gather support for its actions.
The Turkish war on Daesh is a phony war. The real war is against the PYD (Kurds in Irak and Syria) and the politically active Kurds in Turkey (HDP)
The US and NATO should warn the Erdogan regime that the offensive against the Kurds helps Daesh.
Erdogan may also be seeking to use the W-on-T to criminalise the HDP, the Kurdish party which gained considerable support in the last election. HDP gained support even among many Turks.
I don't think the Turkish government was too molested by the bombing in Suruc, about 10 days ago, as most of the victims were Kurds and Turkish leftists.
As much as I love Turkey, we can not let the Kurds perish.
To cover its designs, the Turkish government has launched some rather symbolic air attacks on Daesh (IS) and called on a NATO meeting to gather support for its actions.
The Turkish war on Daesh is a phony war. The real war is against the PYD (Kurds in Irak and Syria) and the politically active Kurds in Turkey (HDP)
The US and NATO should warn the Erdogan regime that the offensive against the Kurds helps Daesh.
Erdogan may also be seeking to use the W-on-T to criminalise the HDP, the Kurdish party which gained considerable support in the last election. HDP gained support even among many Turks.
I don't think the Turkish government was too molested by the bombing in Suruc, about 10 days ago, as most of the victims were Kurds and Turkish leftists.
As much as I love Turkey, we can not let the Kurds perish.
3
Kurds will not perish. The purpose is to fight patiently and diligently against a NATO-designated terrorist group called PKK which killed thousands of civilians over decades.
Turkey is a rogue nation. Armenian genocide. Kurdish genocide. Sharia law. Ya, that's our ally.
Wyatt - Where is there Sharia law in Turkey?
Not mentioned as factors in Turkey's decision to bomb the Kurds: In Kobani, for example, women have equal rights and the land is owned in common which goes against Turkish male supremacy and the elitism of its leaders. The latter also explains why the U.S. is still has a lax attitude toward helping the Kurds.
When people feel they have a stake in their country like equal rights and land they will fight for it with their hearts and that is why the battle of Kobani has been called, by one of the greatest minds ever, the Stalingrad of the Middle East..
When people feel they have a stake in their country like equal rights and land they will fight for it with their hearts and that is why the battle of Kobani has been called, by one of the greatest minds ever, the Stalingrad of the Middle East..
Tim, there are different Kurdish groups. Turkey is fighting against a NATO-designated terrorist group called PKK. This group killed thousands of innocent civilians.
Turkey granted women the right to vote before women gained that right in the U.S. or much of Europe. In Turkey, women have the same legal rights as men, period.
Violence
violence n: exertion of physical force so as to injure or abuse. -Webster’s New Collegiate Dictionary
Human violence is as old as humanity itself. Assuming the current trend continues, it will end soon in a nuclear holocaust.
“‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no commandment greater than these.” -Mark 12:31
Many speak against violence while indulging in it religiously. Love your neighbor? A lofty precept, indeed. The fact, however, is that most murders involve persons who know each other, including neighbors. Thirty percent involve familial members. Thirty percent of the victims are children.
Factors predisposing towards violence are both biological and environmental. Biological factors can be genetic or acquired. Environmental factors predisposing towards violence are a bit more complex but still not difficult to understand.
Accordingly, as was well known to the Founding Fathers of these United States of America, the greatest threat of violence to us as citizens comes from our own government — directly and indirectly. Forewarned is forearmed.
“The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.” -Edmund Burke (1729-1787)
See “Violence”: http://nationonfire.com/category/uncategorized/ .
violence n: exertion of physical force so as to injure or abuse. -Webster’s New Collegiate Dictionary
Human violence is as old as humanity itself. Assuming the current trend continues, it will end soon in a nuclear holocaust.
“‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no commandment greater than these.” -Mark 12:31
Many speak against violence while indulging in it religiously. Love your neighbor? A lofty precept, indeed. The fact, however, is that most murders involve persons who know each other, including neighbors. Thirty percent involve familial members. Thirty percent of the victims are children.
Factors predisposing towards violence are both biological and environmental. Biological factors can be genetic or acquired. Environmental factors predisposing towards violence are a bit more complex but still not difficult to understand.
Accordingly, as was well known to the Founding Fathers of these United States of America, the greatest threat of violence to us as citizens comes from our own government — directly and indirectly. Forewarned is forearmed.
“The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.” -Edmund Burke (1729-1787)
See “Violence”: http://nationonfire.com/category/uncategorized/ .
The Kurds have been shortchanged by Western powers time and time again. They deserve an independent state, certainly far more than Palestinians. An alliance between the US and Turkey stinks. Turkey should be kicked out of NATO.
With that argument, many ethnicities in several countries also deserve a state. Do you think the US would be willing to accept such request if Texas or CA wanted to separate? Turkey is one of the pillar countries for NATO. It would be wishful thinking to imagine a NATO without Turkey.
Nothing against Kurds. Turkey is fighting with PKK which is a NATO-designateed terrorrist group. This article mixes kurds with PKK.
Nothing against Kurds. Turkey is fighting with PKK which is a NATO-designateed terrorrist group. This article mixes kurds with PKK.
As long as PPK desires to pick a fight with Turkey it would seem they are fair game for Turkish attacks.
Turkey is looking after Turkish interests. There is no reason that I can find that they should be a party to America's fumbling and bumbling ineptitude in the Middle East.
Turkey is looking after Turkish interests. There is no reason that I can find that they should be a party to America's fumbling and bumbling ineptitude in the Middle East.
2
this is a 'rotten' turn of events.
The syrian kurds allied with the PKK have been the only force to successfully turn back an IS advance. highly secular, they will never accommodate a fundamentalist islamic presence. on the other hand, turkey is riddled with islamic fundamentalists awaiting the clarion call to jihad. i had met many of these people during my residence in that country in the 1990s - many of them were not shy about their intentions.
turkey's proposed zone of control seeks to dislodge kurdish fighters from the border region. instead of another foreign adventure, i highly recommend that turkey's islamic government take measure to head off the internacine fighting which is certainly coming to turkey. they are at 11:55 on the clock! the fighting between secular turks and kurds and the alevi on the one hand, and observant sunni muslims led by salafists could conceivably make the violence in syria pale.
The syrian kurds allied with the PKK have been the only force to successfully turn back an IS advance. highly secular, they will never accommodate a fundamentalist islamic presence. on the other hand, turkey is riddled with islamic fundamentalists awaiting the clarion call to jihad. i had met many of these people during my residence in that country in the 1990s - many of them were not shy about their intentions.
turkey's proposed zone of control seeks to dislodge kurdish fighters from the border region. instead of another foreign adventure, i highly recommend that turkey's islamic government take measure to head off the internacine fighting which is certainly coming to turkey. they are at 11:55 on the clock! the fighting between secular turks and kurds and the alevi on the one hand, and observant sunni muslims led by salafists could conceivably make the violence in syria pale.
I would recommend reading about the autrocities of the PKK against innocent babies and civilians since 1980s. Nothing justifies terrorism. If we are going to have an ethical stand, no terrorist act should be tolerated. Who would want to receive a phone call one day to learn a wife, husband, sister, brother, died when a bomb went off?
"Turkey's shift on the Syrian war" reveals also its self interests, mainly to dampen the ambition of the Kurds in Syria and at home to move towards autonomy. Although Turkey's campaign would curtail the flow of foreign fighters, money and arms to ISIS in Syria, but targeting the Kurdish units, the YPG in Syria will definitely complicate the already bloody conflict in the region, and Ankara shouldn't estimate the outcome.
Since the outbreak of the civil war in Syria, Turkey had turned a blind eye to ISIS activities in the country and let it battle the Kurds in Syria, while trying to rein in the Kurdish separatist movement on Turkish ground, by negotiating with the PKK. Ankara should stop unfairly liken the YPG to ISIS and refresh its peace talks with the PKK, before the conflict gets out of control.
Since the outbreak of the civil war in Syria, Turkey had turned a blind eye to ISIS activities in the country and let it battle the Kurds in Syria, while trying to rein in the Kurdish separatist movement on Turkish ground, by negotiating with the PKK. Ankara should stop unfairly liken the YPG to ISIS and refresh its peace talks with the PKK, before the conflict gets out of control.
2
Islamist Turkey has been increasingly anti-democracy, anti-Israel and now anti-Kurd.
12
Turkey is "now" anti-Kurd? Turkey has always been anti-Kurd.
Turkey: “Sorry, we have two enemies. You have just one.”
4
Except that one of the enemies is helping to fight the other.
PKK is a NATO-designated terrorist group. They are not helping any cause, including fighting with ISIS.
All of this establishes the futility of our efforts in the middle east, both past and present. Nothing has worked over the past decades, and there is no reason to expect that anything will in the future; diplomacy or military intervention. We must come to the reality that we can do nothing constructive other than to provide humanitarian relief to all suffering peoples. Nothing will netter enhance America's prestige in the middle east. We simply have no strategic interest the region at all. There is no "existential threat" to our interests by middle east factions, ISSIS or otherwise. The Israeli lobby has corrupted our press and government such that we do not currently have an intelligent dialog on our real interests in the middle east. Israel is not our "critical ally" as Wolf Blitzer repeatedly asserts on CNN, or even an ally at all. We have no common interests with that oppressive, religious state. Indeed, our support of Israel and the monarchies (Saudi Arabia) and corrupt dictatorships (Egypt) serve only to cause more hostility toward the U.S. in the region. So let's do what intelligent countries have done; i.e. get out now, lock, stock and barrel.
27
Do I take it then Bill, that your check to AIPAC is not in the mail? I'm sorry to hear that. You're making me double my usual contribution to them, and the money is gonna be hard to come up with.
1
Woulda, coulda, shoulda...If the Middle East just wasn't sitting atop almost half of the World's known petroleum reserves...
You make too much sense for our irresponsible Congress, and a few media, including Wolf, controlled by the Jewish lobbyists, against our OWN interest
1
Turkey's democratic reputation (remember Armenia?) doesn't stand a lot of scrutiny. The Kurds are probably well overdue for a state of their own. Turkey is probably biting off more that it can chew.
18
I am amused by the many posts which provide linear, logical, rational analysis and commentary on a situation that defies all it. The notion that the current situation in the Middle East can be "solved" is absolutely insane. There is no end game here and Obama knows it. Unfortunately, he does not have the courage or the foresight to do what really needs to be done. Nothing.
13
Not a question of courage. Obama knows better.....Congress is against him, whatever he does or does not do. but, you should recognize.....he is doing exactly what you prescribe......nothing......and I fully agree with you.....
and we should stop wasting billions there....including Israel
and we should stop wasting billions there....including Israel
1
Actually Pres. Obama probably does have the foresight and courage to do what needs to be done. The question is if the American people would support him in doing so this close to a Presidential election. Doing just enough to not get blamed for doing something significant is a political tactic which now takes precedence over reasonable action.
1
Hiring and training mercenary terrorists and insurgents often ignored or considered necessary by our government, its allies and the media is wrong. Using misdirected people to fight a war only supports the geopolitical greed of those want to control the flow of gas through the Middle East, through Syria & Turkey, and the reserved currency used.
The Kurds instead of Syria and ISIS is going in a direction that the greedy do not favor. Like the Jews, the Kurds a displaced people are looking for their own home in Iraq, Turkey and Syria. However, neither the Saudis nor Turks want the Kurds in the way of a future pipeline through the region to Europe. That means another play on our emotions to get us to favor one side over the other, so the US can, with our emotional approval continue supporting those who use US Dollars. That for our government is the real struggle going on around the world. Iran, Syria, ISIS, Afghanistan, Ukraine and now the Kurds, all caught in someone else’s power struggle, which are even willing to fight a nuclear war out of gluttony.
The Kurds instead of Syria and ISIS is going in a direction that the greedy do not favor. Like the Jews, the Kurds a displaced people are looking for their own home in Iraq, Turkey and Syria. However, neither the Saudis nor Turks want the Kurds in the way of a future pipeline through the region to Europe. That means another play on our emotions to get us to favor one side over the other, so the US can, with our emotional approval continue supporting those who use US Dollars. That for our government is the real struggle going on around the world. Iran, Syria, ISIS, Afghanistan, Ukraine and now the Kurds, all caught in someone else’s power struggle, which are even willing to fight a nuclear war out of gluttony.
5
Turkey will do to the Kurds what it did to the Armenians a century ago. Only the USA can prevent this tragedy. The Kurds have sacrificed enough.
16
True enough, but the Armenians were massacred by Kurds as well as, or even more than, by Turks
2
Turkey providing a negotiated use of airbase(s) gives significant logistical help to a NATO ally and saves US taxpayers substantial expense in confronting ISIS. Thank you. If Turkey wants to do more in Syria in concert with the allied effort towards a serious solution for Syria, again we are thankful. However, I would hope the U. S. Administration is very firm in stating to Erdogan that it is the Kurds who have done the heavy, HEAVY, lifting in Northern Iraq and Northern Syria, at GREAT sacrifice. We (United States citizens) did not see a lot of Turkish accommodation and help for the almost defeated Kurds in Kobane, who certainly didn't do anything to invite ISIS to a Kurdish slaughter in Kurdish neighborhoods and homes. As such, if the Turks are doing to mix in a little work on the Kurds while in Syria, they should stay home and watch as before. Yes, there is a long, LONG complex history between the Kurds and Turks that would take a long time for the rest of us outside the region to fully understand. But today is the first day of the future. Don't waste it. We LEARN from the past, we LIVE in the present, we MOVE and CHANGE into the future. There is WAY TOO MUCH commitment to the past in the Middle East between countries who don't like or trust each other, and not enough focus on the future. Erdogan is a political player at home, and Turkey was always going to balance Iranian presence in Syria. But show us a country that jumps in to be a team player for all in the region.
4
Turkey is playing a very cynical game. After a long with the Kurds who demanded autonomy, which resulted in more than 40,000 deaths on both sides, Turkey reached a truce with the Kurds. The Kurds took part in the last parliamentary election, received 13% of the vote and sent 80 MPs to the parliament, thus depriving Erdogan of a majority. He is now taking revenge from the Kurds under the guise of attacking ISIS.
Long before the Arab Uprising, Turkey, Israel and Saudi Arabia for different reasons tried to get rid of Bashar Asad, Turkey to exercise Ottoman-style dominance over Syria, Israel to cut off Iran’s link to Hizballah, and Saudi Arabia to weaken her regional rival Iran. The West joined in that misconceived plot by spending hundreds of millions of dollars supporting and arming “moderate Syrian insurgents” or “good terrorists”. The result has been the almost total destruction of Syria, 300,000 killed and injured, and the greatest refugee crisis since the Second World Ward.
Terrorists recognize no boundaries, as was proved by Al-Qaeda, Al-Shabaab, Boko Haram, etc. When terrorists killed some 30 people on the Turkish side of the border, Erdogan got into action, but instead of attacking ISIS he is attacking the Kurds who have been most effective in fighting ISIS. The West should not fall into this trap, should concentrate on defeating IS and then reaching an agreement for a more inclusive regime in Syria.
Long before the Arab Uprising, Turkey, Israel and Saudi Arabia for different reasons tried to get rid of Bashar Asad, Turkey to exercise Ottoman-style dominance over Syria, Israel to cut off Iran’s link to Hizballah, and Saudi Arabia to weaken her regional rival Iran. The West joined in that misconceived plot by spending hundreds of millions of dollars supporting and arming “moderate Syrian insurgents” or “good terrorists”. The result has been the almost total destruction of Syria, 300,000 killed and injured, and the greatest refugee crisis since the Second World Ward.
Terrorists recognize no boundaries, as was proved by Al-Qaeda, Al-Shabaab, Boko Haram, etc. When terrorists killed some 30 people on the Turkish side of the border, Erdogan got into action, but instead of attacking ISIS he is attacking the Kurds who have been most effective in fighting ISIS. The West should not fall into this trap, should concentrate on defeating IS and then reaching an agreement for a more inclusive regime in Syria.
15
This note seems to confuse Kurds with PKK which is a NATO-designated terrorist group.
So, did the US talk with Kurdish leaders about this deal with Turkey? Were there promises to Kurdish leaders that haven't been shared with Turkey? What will we do if the Kurds have a change of heart in this war with Syria, and ISIS or any other warring faction in the Middle East?
The US has now escalated the war by engaging Turkey in the conflict. Was this a decision between Turkey and the US or did NATO give it's stamp of approval? If it didn't, why not? And for that matter, how can the president again escalate this war without Congress's input, unless of course there has been a tacit approval for this action behind the scenes by Congressional leadership.
This situation just gets worse and worse, there appears no military or diplomatic solution on the horizon; essentially it seems that the plan is to bomb and/or destroy the Middle East and it's people out of existence either by the US, Turkey, Syria, ISIS, or whomever engages in this conflict. Hundreds of thousands have died in this conflict, most likely millions before it stops. This is genocide by committee.
The US has now escalated the war by engaging Turkey in the conflict. Was this a decision between Turkey and the US or did NATO give it's stamp of approval? If it didn't, why not? And for that matter, how can the president again escalate this war without Congress's input, unless of course there has been a tacit approval for this action behind the scenes by Congressional leadership.
This situation just gets worse and worse, there appears no military or diplomatic solution on the horizon; essentially it seems that the plan is to bomb and/or destroy the Middle East and it's people out of existence either by the US, Turkey, Syria, ISIS, or whomever engages in this conflict. Hundreds of thousands have died in this conflict, most likely millions before it stops. This is genocide by committee.
4
Apparently the confused, dangerous and volatile Mid-East has just become MORE confused, dangerous and volatile. Turkey attacks DAESH, good. Turkey attacks the Kurds who are also fighting DAESH and, hence, one of the U.S.'s allies, good or bad or what?
Heck, we allied with Joe Stalin in WW2. So what if Turkey is using this opportunity to knock off a few people they don't like, being 'terrorists' and all according to Turkey, as long as some of their American made weaponry is also used on the DAESH pick up trucks.
War always makes for 'strange' bedfellows it seems.
Heck, we allied with Joe Stalin in WW2. So what if Turkey is using this opportunity to knock off a few people they don't like, being 'terrorists' and all according to Turkey, as long as some of their American made weaponry is also used on the DAESH pick up trucks.
War always makes for 'strange' bedfellows it seems.
2
That confused part of the process is indeed clear in terms of local politics.
Because as you noted, Kurdish forces are the ground troops to fight against ISIS. yes Turkey is bombing ISIS , fine, but also destroying ground troops is no brainer. true.
so what is the deal.
Turkey in fact Erdogan is trying to get reverse last general election results via reigniting fight with PKK, so in snap election he is hoping that Kurdish party will not pass threshold and their seats goes to AKP.
That is the confusing part for you, why Turks bombs Kurds which is the only ground fighting groups.
This will be very counterproductive for USA policy if Turkey damages too much the Kurdish forces.
It is like indirectly helping ISIS.
Because as you noted, Kurdish forces are the ground troops to fight against ISIS. yes Turkey is bombing ISIS , fine, but also destroying ground troops is no brainer. true.
so what is the deal.
Turkey in fact Erdogan is trying to get reverse last general election results via reigniting fight with PKK, so in snap election he is hoping that Kurdish party will not pass threshold and their seats goes to AKP.
That is the confusing part for you, why Turks bombs Kurds which is the only ground fighting groups.
This will be very counterproductive for USA policy if Turkey damages too much the Kurdish forces.
It is like indirectly helping ISIS.
2
The US Congress would rather keep trying to repeal Obamacare and skirmish over Benghazi - battles lost long ago - than engage in meaningful foreign policy issues like this one.
25
Turkey needs to stop getting sidetracked.
1
It is perfectly understandable that Turkey would view the increasing (and increasingly effective) Kurdish fighters on its border as a long-term political and territorial threat. Turkey's decision to attack the PKK is not that surprising, though it probably is also influenced by the Erdrogan government's desire to foment tension between its Turkish and Kurdish citizens in order to undermine its political opposition. We should accept that the PKK can be both a terrorist and a "freedom fighting" organization. That, too, is hardly surprising. Who is a "terrorist" depends almost completely on which side of the sense you are on. Or, more accurately, virtually all militaries use terrorist tactics. Just look at Israel's wars against Gaza or the US use of drones. Whether or not that is acceptable depends on what side you favor.
In this case, the Turks are following their own narrow interests. They view ISIS as a threat but, apparently, less of a threat than a resurgent PKK. Turkey's interests may be different than those of the US, but they are not irrational. Moreover, it is doubtful the Americans can control this. So long as the Shi'ite government of Iraq brutalizes its Sunni citizens, ISIS will have a base of support. ISIS was created by George W. Bush. As Colin Powell said, "you broke it you bought it." The US bears responsibility for most of this mess. But it is doubtful that the US has any capacity to make the situation better.
In this case, the Turks are following their own narrow interests. They view ISIS as a threat but, apparently, less of a threat than a resurgent PKK. Turkey's interests may be different than those of the US, but they are not irrational. Moreover, it is doubtful the Americans can control this. So long as the Shi'ite government of Iraq brutalizes its Sunni citizens, ISIS will have a base of support. ISIS was created by George W. Bush. As Colin Powell said, "you broke it you bought it." The US bears responsibility for most of this mess. But it is doubtful that the US has any capacity to make the situation better.
8
I say time to pick sides. Recognize Kurdistan including parts of Iraq and Syria, sign a deal to station troops and use force with extreme prejudice with those who challenge our interest. It is not about nation building rather tactical alliance
1
Looks like war from Syria is finally spilling over to Turkey as so many Neocons in the US wanted. Congratulations to those as the misery will only get worse.
3
This was an incredibly one sided and willfully blind editorial. There was no mention of the fact that the Turkish bombings of the PKK bases only occurred after the PKK assassinated a number of Turkish policemen as well as civilians in the wake of the ISIS Suruc bombing, and openly took credit for doing so. The PKK, a Marxist-Leninist organization with a North Korean style personality cult, never fully abjured violence during the 2 year cease fire and last winter carried out the killings of scores of Kurdish political rivals. The HDP party which is affiliated with it won 13% of the votes in the recent elections thanks to the support of many well intentioned Turkish voters. While presenting itself as a Social Democratic party, its leaders have yet to condemn the recent PKK terror attacks. One cannot participate in democratic politics while also engaging in extra judicial killings at the same time. The NYT needs to explain why many Western countries have no problem with this dichotomy when it comes to Turkey, something they would never accept in their own democracies.
20
the policemen were killed after the bombings in suruc because many turks believe that the bombings were carried out by turkish intelligence MIT, and not by an IS suicide bomber. i'm sure the facts will be made clear in time...
Finally an intelligent comment! Bravo!
There is zero evidence that the Suruc attack was carried out by anyone other than ISIS. Infact, Turkish arrests of hundreds of ISIS sympathizers in the prior weeks precipitated the Suruc bombing. There was no justification for the PKK murder spree which led to justifiable Turkish retaliation. The PKK has also long murdered any Kurds who disagree with its violent tactics in keeping with its North Korean style Marxist ideology and cult of personality.
1
Turkey's role in the Anti Iran Coalition of Israel, the Sunni Royals and the US is to serve as the chief logistical support for ISIS, which is a conventional force, that uses terror as a tactic. It is led by the Officers of Saddam Hussein, and it serves as a surrogate force for the objectives of the coalition.
Turkey recognizes that Kurdish North Iraq has a very good chance to achieve complete autonomy if they can successfully contain ISIS Forces, and pander to the will of the US to curb and redirect ISIS Forces in order to eliminate Assad from the picture, and secure Syria as a block to Persian gas distribution ambitions, without triggering WWIII.
However, Statehood for Iraq's Kurds could eventually catalyze centrifugal forces in the Kurdish Regions of Iran, Iraq, and Turkey thus leading to a pan Kurdish State, which Turkey will go to war to prevent.
Consequently, it has become nearly impossible for Turkey to serve completely divergent interests, and still serve its own interests along with the interests of the US and the anti Iran coalition.
If all of this seems slightly crazy, then think back to Bush Senior who left Saddam Hussein in power when he could have crushed him. George HW Bush knew the Middle East. He understood the politics of oil, and the strategic importance of the geopolitics of its distribution. His son W knew nothing of this. So he blundered into Iraq with the purpose of regime change, and now there is hell to pay. What a mess ignorance has created!
Turkey recognizes that Kurdish North Iraq has a very good chance to achieve complete autonomy if they can successfully contain ISIS Forces, and pander to the will of the US to curb and redirect ISIS Forces in order to eliminate Assad from the picture, and secure Syria as a block to Persian gas distribution ambitions, without triggering WWIII.
However, Statehood for Iraq's Kurds could eventually catalyze centrifugal forces in the Kurdish Regions of Iran, Iraq, and Turkey thus leading to a pan Kurdish State, which Turkey will go to war to prevent.
Consequently, it has become nearly impossible for Turkey to serve completely divergent interests, and still serve its own interests along with the interests of the US and the anti Iran coalition.
If all of this seems slightly crazy, then think back to Bush Senior who left Saddam Hussein in power when he could have crushed him. George HW Bush knew the Middle East. He understood the politics of oil, and the strategic importance of the geopolitics of its distribution. His son W knew nothing of this. So he blundered into Iraq with the purpose of regime change, and now there is hell to pay. What a mess ignorance has created!
39
By not condemning Turkish attacks against Kurds in Iraq, the US is endangering the fight against ISIS by undermining the only indigenous fighting force that both has a stake in the conflict and has been successful in battling the group. Apart from the reality that Kurds have been oppressed by the Turkish government for a century, and that the Kurds have always been a loyal ally of the US despite American duplicity towards them (which is much more than can be said of the Turks), the US has a practical reason for keeping the Turkish army out of the PKK's way: they will otherwise prolong and strengthen their number 1 nemesis in the region, ISIS. Ridiculous to think the Turkish government is now an ally to the US there. Their support for ISIS has been demonstrated time and time again.
7
Victor Laszlo: "Welcome back to the fight. This time I know our side will win."
-Casablanca (1943)
Yea...not exactly, not this time.
All that Turkey, "...a NATO member that has one of the most powerful militaries in the region..." is trying to do is survive as a modern nation against ISIS. Which President Obama infamously described last year as akin to a junior varsity basketball team
Turkey never had the problem back when Syria wasn't consumed by war, and the Turks were mostly focused on trying to suppress the Kurds, and keeping US war fighters in Iraq out of their country.
And yes, I know ISIS arose after US troops left Iraq. But ISIS/ISIL is an offshoot of Al Quada in Iraq (AQI), and AQI is an offshoot of Al Quada, whose founder, Osama Bin Ladin, first declared war on the US in 1996.
And ISIS is trying to re-establish a sunni Islamic caliphate, the last one being the Turkish Ottoman Empire, which collapsed less than a hundred years ago.
A new Caliphate being one of the same goals Osama Bin Ladin had.
Given all that, if ISIS isn't stopped now, it seems more than likely the worst is yet to come.
http://www.factcheck.org/2014/09/obama-fumbles-jv-team-question/
-Casablanca (1943)
Yea...not exactly, not this time.
All that Turkey, "...a NATO member that has one of the most powerful militaries in the region..." is trying to do is survive as a modern nation against ISIS. Which President Obama infamously described last year as akin to a junior varsity basketball team
Turkey never had the problem back when Syria wasn't consumed by war, and the Turks were mostly focused on trying to suppress the Kurds, and keeping US war fighters in Iraq out of their country.
And yes, I know ISIS arose after US troops left Iraq. But ISIS/ISIL is an offshoot of Al Quada in Iraq (AQI), and AQI is an offshoot of Al Quada, whose founder, Osama Bin Ladin, first declared war on the US in 1996.
And ISIS is trying to re-establish a sunni Islamic caliphate, the last one being the Turkish Ottoman Empire, which collapsed less than a hundred years ago.
A new Caliphate being one of the same goals Osama Bin Ladin had.
Given all that, if ISIS isn't stopped now, it seems more than likely the worst is yet to come.
http://www.factcheck.org/2014/09/obama-fumbles-jv-team-question/
1
It would appear that Turkey is more interested in hitting the PKK than actually helping....
12
NYT is missing the point. The recent policy change of the Turkish government and its boss Erdogan is entirely connected with the domestic political scene. They are scheming to force early elections in fall this year under conditions which will bring the nationalist/conservative voters they lost in the June elections back to the AKP. That is why Turkish security forces are focusing on Kurdish targets and PKK appearently more than ISIS. Large segments of the nationalist Turks are more concerned about 'the Kurdish cause'' than the threat posed by ISIS. Erdogan's objective and tactics are crystal clear.
34
How can the US team up with Turkey who's ulterior motives are partially disguised and aims to fight the Kurds, an offshoot Turks group that Turkey has been fighting for decades? ISIS is the enemy du jour and Turkey's Edrogen is an opportunist who sees his internal enemy being directly in the path of fire. The US is aware of this and is conveniently ignoring the welfare of the Kurds is make up the minority of an Iraqi region full of oil.
8
There are many ways to describe the current Congress, but "resigned" is not one of them. Lawmakers have allowed this military action to remain undefined because they wish to leave military options open while avoiding direct responsibility for the outcome. Better to blame the administration should it not yield positive results.
As for the Kurds, the US government should give then their full support and put pressure on Turkey to stop the military strikes against them. The Kurds have been consistent US allies and are secular, in contrast to the Islamic-leaning government of Erdogan. Stand by your friends, or expect to have none when you need them.
As for the Kurds, the US government should give then their full support and put pressure on Turkey to stop the military strikes against them. The Kurds have been consistent US allies and are secular, in contrast to the Islamic-leaning government of Erdogan. Stand by your friends, or expect to have none when you need them.
69
Erdogan is the terrorist here. After loosing power in the recent elections, to a Kurdish political party no less, he is using the ISIS crisis to jail/kill his own legitimate political opponents.
We need to invoke economic sanctions against Turkey now and threaten to kick them out of NATO. At the same time we must back the only successful force there is against ISIL - the Kurds.
We need to invoke economic sanctions against Turkey now and threaten to kick them out of NATO. At the same time we must back the only successful force there is against ISIL - the Kurds.
61
America again supports an authoritarian, blatantly violent and bloody regime, that of Turkey, in order to "further" its myopically perceived interests. The US helps to bomb and suppress, thus antagonises and dramatically weakens the one laicistic and reasonable people among the Near East. Congratulations to another stupid policy that will cost further countless innocent lives.
3
Here we go again.
Are the Kurds our friends? Are they part of the Sunni/Shia conflict? Are they for or against Hassan? Do they believe in instant replay.
US citizens need a scorecard in able to keep up with whom we should be pulling for?
Are the Kurds our friends? Are they part of the Sunni/Shia conflict? Are they for or against Hassan? Do they believe in instant replay.
US citizens need a scorecard in able to keep up with whom we should be pulling for?
2
The Kurds are our friends and have been through this whole mess with ISIS. We owe them.
The ISIS mess is due mainly to the Kurdish policies of ethnic cleansing in the area. Remember Kurds have forced a lot of people to leave their homes in their nation building program. That is why there are many many millions of homeless people wandering around..
Perhaps. But ISIS is a new existential threat while Turkey and the Kurds have been immersed in mutual distrust, hatred and fundamentally opposed interests for a FAR longer time. Often better, and certainly to be expected, that the demon you know is a more recognizable enemy than the new demon you espy on the horizon.
Knowledgeable cynics always knew this tenuous rapprochement was not going to be that easy, and might not even be possible -- it was just questions of which side would be the first to resume hostilities, and when.
Knowledgeable cynics always knew this tenuous rapprochement was not going to be that easy, and might not even be possible -- it was just questions of which side would be the first to resume hostilities, and when.
1
This entire situation is just a huge mess and keeping up with what's going on will induce a headache. You have a corrupt AKP in the Turkish government playing nice with ISIS and who is now, most likely, using these attacks on the PKK as ways of influencing the potential early elections in November. You have two terrorist organizations in the PKK and ISIS fighting each other. You have people from all around the world that are not as familiar with the PKK (a terrorist grp really only identified as such by the Turk ppl who have seen and experienced their attacks and a handful of allies of Turkey), supporting their fight against Turkey because the PKK is fighting ISIS (an almost globally opposed terror org). You have non-Kurdish Turks assuming that all Kurds support the PKK and Kurd Turks claiming that the PKK's methods are wrong. You have the YPG (the Syrian Kurdish forces) who the AKP government claims to support, yet who report being attacked by Turkish military.
This list goes on and on.
My stance and personal opinion for the ideal (although highly improbable) outcome: AKP needs to get out. They are pulling this country backwards in time regardless of economic advances. Turk Kurds deserve their rights and Kurds in general deserve a Kurdistan, although I don't know enough to talk about where that would be ideally (maybe Iraq and/or Syria?). ISIS needs to go down. Turkish and PKK conflict needs to stop as it's an endless war. I'm sure I missed stuff, but I'm spent.
This list goes on and on.
My stance and personal opinion for the ideal (although highly improbable) outcome: AKP needs to get out. They are pulling this country backwards in time regardless of economic advances. Turk Kurds deserve their rights and Kurds in general deserve a Kurdistan, although I don't know enough to talk about where that would be ideally (maybe Iraq and/or Syria?). ISIS needs to go down. Turkish and PKK conflict needs to stop as it's an endless war. I'm sure I missed stuff, but I'm spent.
2
The Kurdistan Workers' Party (PKK) murdered two police officers when they were sleeping inside their homes. PKK also fatally attacked Turkish soldiers, all of which happened before Turkey bombed PKK camps in Northern Iraq.
This is not mentioned anywhere in this editorial. It is the PKK who is being opportunistic; PKK announced that their attacks on Turkish security forces were revenge for the suicide bombing against pro-Kurdish rights socialist students in Suruc. Turks now cannot properly mourn for the murdered students, because PKK has tied their humanitarian work with armed Kurdish separatism.
Given the incredible bias against Turkey in the West, Turkey is wise to follow their own course of action. Both the Islamic State and armed Kurdish separatism are threats to Turkey.
This is not mentioned anywhere in this editorial. It is the PKK who is being opportunistic; PKK announced that their attacks on Turkish security forces were revenge for the suicide bombing against pro-Kurdish rights socialist students in Suruc. Turks now cannot properly mourn for the murdered students, because PKK has tied their humanitarian work with armed Kurdish separatism.
Given the incredible bias against Turkey in the West, Turkey is wise to follow their own course of action. Both the Islamic State and armed Kurdish separatism are threats to Turkey.
4
Okay, Soma....tell us how many Kurds were murdered by the Turks.....go on, we're waiting.
No, you don't want to discuss that, do you? Because it undermines your entire argument. The folks in POWER have the guns and tanks and planes....and it's not the Kurds.
No, you don't want to discuss that, do you? Because it undermines your entire argument. The folks in POWER have the guns and tanks and planes....and it's not the Kurds.
2
Soma writes "The Kurdistan Workers' Party (PKK) murdered two police officers when they were sleeping inside their homes. ".......
This is the first attack against Turkish security forces right after Suruc bombing.
If Soma serious and has any knowledge about Turkey's Kurdish region, these Two police officers in their home living in Kurdish city were always on alarm, they had guns two, so how on earth PKK sneak in their house and kill them ( according to police report shot behind head) without no breaking in and struggle. Details friend important.
That unfortunate night, who came to kill those two police officers are not PKK , they are MIT's counter guerilla (GLADIO operation) people, Yes Turkish republic clandestine operatives which is directed directed by Hakan Fidan, so these two policemen didn't react or struggle against , they were just betrayed.
Suruc bombing is also a act of Hakan Fidan (Gladio style) operation but using ISIS proxies.
Turkey has intelligence counter insurgency units in all Kurdish rebel groups as well as ISIS, Since 1971 coupe , every body knows these units main action is political subversion.
Erdogan is now in charge to use these units like his predecessors , Ciller-Agar was the 1990's despots.
Many killings were carried out mainly against political , cultural people as well as police and army personnel particularly by Turkish Deep state and Erdogan clearly stated that it exists in Turkey.
This is the first attack against Turkish security forces right after Suruc bombing.
If Soma serious and has any knowledge about Turkey's Kurdish region, these Two police officers in their home living in Kurdish city were always on alarm, they had guns two, so how on earth PKK sneak in their house and kill them ( according to police report shot behind head) without no breaking in and struggle. Details friend important.
That unfortunate night, who came to kill those two police officers are not PKK , they are MIT's counter guerilla (GLADIO operation) people, Yes Turkish republic clandestine operatives which is directed directed by Hakan Fidan, so these two policemen didn't react or struggle against , they were just betrayed.
Suruc bombing is also a act of Hakan Fidan (Gladio style) operation but using ISIS proxies.
Turkey has intelligence counter insurgency units in all Kurdish rebel groups as well as ISIS, Since 1971 coupe , every body knows these units main action is political subversion.
Erdogan is now in charge to use these units like his predecessors , Ciller-Agar was the 1990's despots.
Many killings were carried out mainly against political , cultural people as well as police and army personnel particularly by Turkish Deep state and Erdogan clearly stated that it exists in Turkey.
It depends on how you define a Kurd.
The suicide bomber who murdered 32 socialist activists in Suruc was an ethnic Kurd, but was identified as a Turk by the nytimes. (http://www.nytimes.com/2015/07/23/world/europe/turkey-suruc-bombing.html)
This a common occurrence. When its comes to honor killings or jihad, Turkish citizens of Kurdish heritage are called Turks.
But those same citizens are called Kurds when it serves the interests of Western powers.
So if a PKK separatist murders a Turkish soldier of Kurdish origin, how will that be reported?
Turk and Kurd identity is more fluid than you realize.
The suicide bomber who murdered 32 socialist activists in Suruc was an ethnic Kurd, but was identified as a Turk by the nytimes. (http://www.nytimes.com/2015/07/23/world/europe/turkey-suruc-bombing.html)
This a common occurrence. When its comes to honor killings or jihad, Turkish citizens of Kurdish heritage are called Turks.
But those same citizens are called Kurds when it serves the interests of Western powers.
So if a PKK separatist murders a Turkish soldier of Kurdish origin, how will that be reported?
Turk and Kurd identity is more fluid than you realize.
1
I wish once our leaders in Washington show us American people the cost and benefit of babysitting our supposedly allies like Turkey and S. Arabia. How did we (the super power) end up fighting and spending our resource to win proxy wars for those guys and advance their domestic and regional agendas? Is that really in our national interest? Seems to me that a huge part of the mess in the middle east is created/fueled by some of our undemocratic allies in the region. Erdogan and co., which dreams about resurrecting the ottoman empire and building their own khalifah, has lost its majority in the recent election. Now they are punishing the Kurds for it and flaming a new conflict to solidify their position in the power. We must lead and push Turkey to commit to a peaceful resolution that recognizes the rights of their Kurdish population. We need to forcefully lead our allies toward peaceful solutions. That region doesn't need a new conflict. And in Syria, it is hard to imagine that abandoning our Kurdish friends is in our national interest and not just for the sake of pleasing/aiding Erdogan and his Co.
1
How much? Enough to put two tunnels under the Hudson each and every month. Enough to reform the VA's shameful treatment of Veterans.
Enough to fix AMTRAK.
That is the cost.
Enough to fix AMTRAK.
That is the cost.
1
The Kurds are just about the only non-religious, non-fanatic, ethnic group left in the awful mess of the Middle East. Denying them statehood and now allowing Turkey to attack them with impunity is foolish.
Can't NATO apply some serious pressure on Turkey? Don't they get most of their weapons from the West?
Can't NATO apply some serious pressure on Turkey? Don't they get most of their weapons from the West?
57
The Kurds are not totally blameless for their actions in the past, especially regarding the Armenian Genocide, which did elicit a partial response from some of them.
http://armenianweekly.com/2013/09/12/kurdish-leaders-apologize-for-genoc...
http://armenianweekly.com/2013/09/12/kurdish-leaders-apologize-for-genoc...
1
Are you sure that the-kurds(PKK) are non-fanatic group.. You dont know anything about the region... They are not representative of all Kurds especially of Turkey' citizen Kurds... In turkey Kurdish people have every rights as a honory citizen.. But PKK is a terrorist group which controlled by...
3
Unfortunately, your considerations about the Kurds are based on widely-held opinions which in fact have no truth value. Firstly, the Kurds in general are not non-religious, non-fanatic group. Like all ethnic groups in the World, they are consisted of people with various ideologies and political stances. It would be silly to define them under one term, as if Kurdishness amounts to one single homogenous group of people. For example, although devotion to secularism is one distinctive feature of Kurdish political movements in Turkey and Syria, it is not applicable to other Kurdish groups. Kurdish authority in Northern Iraq has long been witnessed discussions as to whether Sharia Law or Secular Law should be coded in the Constitution. What is more, following Arabs, the Kurds is the second national identity that ISIS recruits its militants, by far surpassing Turkish militants in the organization.
You should also be careful about your evaluations on Kurds in Syria. Salih Muslim, the head of PYG, recently proclaimed their prospective union with Assad's Syrian Army in near future, of course under proper conditions. If you are also interested in their commitment to human rights and so on, check up their innumerable human right violations through HRW reports. Forceful migration of other ethnic groups, torturing are just a few among what they do in Norther Syria under the brand of fight for freedom.
You should also be careful about your evaluations on Kurds in Syria. Salih Muslim, the head of PYG, recently proclaimed their prospective union with Assad's Syrian Army in near future, of course under proper conditions. If you are also interested in their commitment to human rights and so on, check up their innumerable human right violations through HRW reports. Forceful migration of other ethnic groups, torturing are just a few among what they do in Norther Syria under the brand of fight for freedom.
3
The long suffering Kurds have been the whipping boy of that part of the world. Turkey has not been a reliable ally. They are not to be trusted. Kurds have been a reliable partner/deterrent to Isis. Turkey is gaming the situation by giving in to US request then bombing our previous ally, the kurds and the USA sells them down the road, saying nothing.
By standing by our allies, the Kurds, we will be sending a message that the USA will not be part of the duplicitous back stabbing diplomacy of the Middle East that has no moral or ethical compass.
By standing by our allies, the Kurds, we will be sending a message that the USA will not be part of the duplicitous back stabbing diplomacy of the Middle East that has no moral or ethical compass.
39
bzg, you are right. better dont change allys too often.
did anyone really believe that Turkey decided to fight ISIS? At this point Turkey has one interest at heart . Can she use anything of this mess to advance her own interests? The answer is yes ,Turkey can and will attack the bothersome Kurds even if it means losing a bomb or two elsewhere.It seems that all of America's "allies" are just playing their own games .
20
I believe Churchill said, "Nations have interests, not friends"
The analysis here is confused. Iraqi Kudistan has long agreed not to allow its territory to be a sanctuary for PKK fighters. Turkey was completely justified in attacking a PKK base in Kurdistan mountains. What were they doing there? This action has nothing to do with the YPG in Syria.
Turkey's more aggressive switch vis-a-vis ISIS probably is entirely in response to ISIS's recent actions in Turkey. There is no evidence (so far) that Turkey's policy change has anything to do with Syria's Kurds. We shall see, but for now lets keep a lid on baseless speculation.
Turkey's more aggressive switch vis-a-vis ISIS probably is entirely in response to ISIS's recent actions in Turkey. There is no evidence (so far) that Turkey's policy change has anything to do with Syria's Kurds. We shall see, but for now lets keep a lid on baseless speculation.
5
I thought PKK effectively ended the truce when they attacked Turkish troops and the poliçe in the last few weeks.
4
Sure it is PKK, sell that the Washington, they knew you better than your mother.
Every body knew that Hakan Fidan started operation, He used agents in KCK and ISIS to do Suruc bombing and two policemen killing.
It is the scenario which Erdogan is trying to reverse the course of 7 June election, In 2007 Erdogan himself confessed deep state exists in Turkey now he is using it with the master-chief of Hakan Fidan.
You are selling the story of PKK sabotaged the Truce.
Why PKK is a moron, while their entire existence is under threat of Sunni insurgency , the only safe place to run away is Turkey, and They thought that Let's terminate these cease fire agreement with Turkey. What a logical decision is in this period of Middle eastern calamity.
Get a life man!!!!
Every body knew that Hakan Fidan started operation, He used agents in KCK and ISIS to do Suruc bombing and two policemen killing.
It is the scenario which Erdogan is trying to reverse the course of 7 June election, In 2007 Erdogan himself confessed deep state exists in Turkey now he is using it with the master-chief of Hakan Fidan.
You are selling the story of PKK sabotaged the Truce.
Why PKK is a moron, while their entire existence is under threat of Sunni insurgency , the only safe place to run away is Turkey, and They thought that Let's terminate these cease fire agreement with Turkey. What a logical decision is in this period of Middle eastern calamity.
Get a life man!!!!
Once again, Obama has been bamboozled by a Middle East nation. First it was Iran, which is now the recipient of nearly $200 billion which it will use to escalate its intrusions into Syria, Iraq, Lebanon via Hezbollah, the Houthi in Yemen, as well more military aid for Hamas, which advocates worldwide Jewish genocide.
And now it's the Turks turn to sucker Obama. The Turks waited and waited to intervene in neighboring Syria to join the fight against ISIS until Obama finally gave his tacit approval to do what the Turks have long wanted to do, attack the Kurds. It has been the Kurds who have put up the real resistance to ISIS, not the pathetic Iraqi army. And Obama's thanks to these brave people: turning a blind eye while the Turks bombard them.
This is nothing short of reprehensible. And again, it reflects Obama being manipulated by yet another Islamic state--this time Turkey...
And now it's the Turks turn to sucker Obama. The Turks waited and waited to intervene in neighboring Syria to join the fight against ISIS until Obama finally gave his tacit approval to do what the Turks have long wanted to do, attack the Kurds. It has been the Kurds who have put up the real resistance to ISIS, not the pathetic Iraqi army. And Obama's thanks to these brave people: turning a blind eye while the Turks bombard them.
This is nothing short of reprehensible. And again, it reflects Obama being manipulated by yet another Islamic state--this time Turkey...
1
A very large issue is now coming to play on this "War". Make no mistake, this is what it has become. The headline of the Editorial even uses the term. But, is it really what the American electorate requests? Most probably not. Quite the contrary, the American electorate most likely wants "complete disengagement" from the Middle East. (No longer are our economic interest so heavily reliant and invested in that region.) So, in reality, this is a "Gulf of Tonkin moment". (The resolution, enacted on August 7, 1964, that eventually entangled the US completely into the Viet Nam civil war.) Assuming the above conclusions to be true, heavy resistance should now be made to insure American involvement and participation is limited and eventually curtailed.
The United States can now officially recognise the Armenian Genocide, because Turkey's worst nightmare would be a US airbase on Kurdish lands.
I suppose the americans would be happy if the turks simply allowed the murder of their law enforcement officers, civilians and soldiers to go unpunished.
I mean america went to war for two journalists but somehow turkey should not respond if cops are killed brazenly by the PKK. To top it all the PKK bragged about it.
The kurds say they are fighting isis. well killing turkish cops, civilians and soldiers is not fighting isis. The pkk want to carve a state in north syria which includes not only kurdish villages but also arab and turkmen too. Turkey will not accept that and this is why the pkk and its allies are upset about. Big bad turkey is stopping their rojava state project
I mean america went to war for two journalists but somehow turkey should not respond if cops are killed brazenly by the PKK. To top it all the PKK bragged about it.
The kurds say they are fighting isis. well killing turkish cops, civilians and soldiers is not fighting isis. The pkk want to carve a state in north syria which includes not only kurdish villages but also arab and turkmen too. Turkey will not accept that and this is why the pkk and its allies are upset about. Big bad turkey is stopping their rojava state project
4
the kurds do fight isis. in fact they are the only resisters to isis on the ground.
Hakan Fidan and MIT counter guerilla groups which is infiltrated the KCK, YPG and PKK are killing Turkish security forces in this particular time.
Amy average intelligence can easily see that PKk like terror organizations, It is not a smart thing to start Fight against Turkey while ISIS raging in Syria and Iraq.
So who is killing the people in Turkey is Turkey's deep state.
Amy average intelligence can easily see that PKk like terror organizations, It is not a smart thing to start Fight against Turkey while ISIS raging in Syria and Iraq.
So who is killing the people in Turkey is Turkey's deep state.
Kurds created the ISIS problem by forcing local Arabs to be displaced from their homelands in Iraq. Now they are exporting the same model to Syria. Kurds are not resisting anything, they are trying to carve a piece larger than their fair share from Syria by taking advantage of their "friend" status. Why do you think there are more than 4M Syrians refugees? Many of these Arabs are displaced by Kurdish thugs.
1
The Obama administration and the NYT cannot seem to grasp that just as the US engages in foreign policy in keeping with its own interests, others in the region have their own interests.
The US has turned the fight against ISIS into its lynch pin of Middle Eastern policy. All else can wait or is less important, such as defeating Mr. Assad and all that that implies.
The Turks are threatened by ISIS but their view is that they are threatened just as much, if not more by the Kurds, not just those in Turkey, but those operating out of Iraq and elsewhere.
The problem is that the Kurds are needed to fight ISIS.
But that is the US view and not Turkish view. Turkey is not willing to endanger itself on the Kurdish front, as it were, in the battle against ISIS.
Thus demanding that Turkey "focus on routing the Islamic State" would be met by a Turkish response that that is indeed what they are doing, but the Turkish way.
The US and the NYT should try and understand the Middle East before offering advice, in this case to Turkey, which would be received as being harmful.
There is a problem for US policy. The first step to solve it is to understand reality.
The US has turned the fight against ISIS into its lynch pin of Middle Eastern policy. All else can wait or is less important, such as defeating Mr. Assad and all that that implies.
The Turks are threatened by ISIS but their view is that they are threatened just as much, if not more by the Kurds, not just those in Turkey, but those operating out of Iraq and elsewhere.
The problem is that the Kurds are needed to fight ISIS.
But that is the US view and not Turkish view. Turkey is not willing to endanger itself on the Kurdish front, as it were, in the battle against ISIS.
Thus demanding that Turkey "focus on routing the Islamic State" would be met by a Turkish response that that is indeed what they are doing, but the Turkish way.
The US and the NYT should try and understand the Middle East before offering advice, in this case to Turkey, which would be received as being harmful.
There is a problem for US policy. The first step to solve it is to understand reality.
16
"This new phase of the war against the Islamic State ... appears most likely to lead to the establishment of a de facto no-fly zone over regions of northern Syria..."
No-fly = bad for Assad. But getting rid of ISIS = good for Assad (and everyone else, except ISIS).
Put the two together, add two years, and what do you get?
Good for Assad.
No-fly = bad for Assad. But getting rid of ISIS = good for Assad (and everyone else, except ISIS).
Put the two together, add two years, and what do you get?
Good for Assad.
This adds another dangerous element to the already dangerous situation in the Middle East as a result of Obama's new Agreement with Iran.
The Kurds who are brave fighters and have helped the US contain ISIS by being America's "Boots on the Ground", will now feel betrayed by America's tilt towards Turkey. - especially as Turkey is apparently using the new entente with America to attack the Kurds.
Apparently, in order to fight ISIS, Obama has embraced Iran (who still considers America as its enemy ) and the Erdogan Government of Turkey ( who was never a reliable Ally) to the detriment of its former friends and allies - Israel, Saudi Arabia, the Gulf Countries, Egypt, Jordan and now the Kurds.
The result will be chaos in the Middle East as America's former Allies seek to bolster their defenses; as well as probable Nuclear Proliferation in the World's most dangerous region.
In addition, as other nations on other World "Fault Lines" ( Japan/ S.Korea vs. N. Korea ) / Taiwan vs. China / E. Europe vs. Russia, etc. ) feel that they cannot rely on America, they too will opt to secure their defenses - by possibly also developing Nuclear Weapons
- As a result, the US will now take on the roll of "World's Fireman" as it seeks to douse the flames in the Middle East and perhaps other parts of the World before those flames envelop the World.
- Unfortunately, the Legacy of the Obama Administration will not be one of "Peace in our Time."
The Kurds who are brave fighters and have helped the US contain ISIS by being America's "Boots on the Ground", will now feel betrayed by America's tilt towards Turkey. - especially as Turkey is apparently using the new entente with America to attack the Kurds.
Apparently, in order to fight ISIS, Obama has embraced Iran (who still considers America as its enemy ) and the Erdogan Government of Turkey ( who was never a reliable Ally) to the detriment of its former friends and allies - Israel, Saudi Arabia, the Gulf Countries, Egypt, Jordan and now the Kurds.
The result will be chaos in the Middle East as America's former Allies seek to bolster their defenses; as well as probable Nuclear Proliferation in the World's most dangerous region.
In addition, as other nations on other World "Fault Lines" ( Japan/ S.Korea vs. N. Korea ) / Taiwan vs. China / E. Europe vs. Russia, etc. ) feel that they cannot rely on America, they too will opt to secure their defenses - by possibly also developing Nuclear Weapons
- As a result, the US will now take on the roll of "World's Fireman" as it seeks to douse the flames in the Middle East and perhaps other parts of the World before those flames envelop the World.
- Unfortunately, the Legacy of the Obama Administration will not be one of "Peace in our Time."
1
those brave kurds not only feel betrayed, they are betrayed in fact. better do not forget, they realy fight isis on the ground. the turks never will do this.
These are very confusing times indeed. It seems the US do not remember why they are fighting ISIS. The answer is that ISIS has been fighting Kurds. ISIS is a criminal organization whose leadership/members should be prosecuted in a war tribunal. But it does not explain why the US should own the problem. It is a Kurdish problem, ISIS mostly consists of Arabs who are displaced by Kurds from their hometowns. In effect, the US is fighting for Kurds, not other way around. The status of PKK is another dilemma. It is recognized as a terrorist organization by the US and EU, responsible of over 40K deads over 30+ years. Yet it has its headquarters in Iraq. Iraq cannot get rid of them and does not let Turks to do so. Moreover, Kurds carving out parts of Syria are closely affiliated with PKK, and Turks are supposed to help them against ISIS. These Kurds wants to build a state along the Turkish border, effectively cutting Turkey off the Middle East trade. Flat out weird! How would anyone in his/her right mind expect something positive to come out of this arrangement for the regional peace? There is more. No one but Turks wants safe zones and no flight zones. Consider there are 4M+ Syrian refugees, Syria is on the chopping board of local terror organizations. So, what is the logic behind not having these zones is still a mystery. And this editorial.... the state of affairs are surreal to say the least.
1
Turkey wants to join the EU. Turkey is a NATO member. Any nation that wants to become a part of these larger organizations must realize that cooperation and teamwork are a mandatory requirement. Instead, Turkey does what it wants.
Cooperation is absolutely necessary when coordinating attacks against a serious threat. Taking a shot at another group who is fighting against the same enemy at the same time is worse than foolish.
Turkey is playing us. They got busy when ISIS started blowing up their own people, not before. Do they want to rout ISIS? After they attacked the Kurds, I seriously doubt it. This entire buffer zone effort looks to me to be solely a means to push ISIS away from the Turkish border, nothing more.
Everyone knows that ISIS cannot be eliminated with air power. Foot soldiers must march in and take them out. We just spent $500 million to train Syrian insurgents which has produced only 60 fighters. The only foot soldiers willing to march in are the Kurds. Turkey takes shot at them the first chance they get.
There are no friends in the Middle East. Everyone is playing everyone else against each other. There are only temporary associations, no true allies. It's all "what can you do for me, today."
Why can't our diplomatic core figure this out?. ISIS will now play the Kurds against Turkey. They know how to win in this ballpark.
Cooperation is absolutely necessary when coordinating attacks against a serious threat. Taking a shot at another group who is fighting against the same enemy at the same time is worse than foolish.
Turkey is playing us. They got busy when ISIS started blowing up their own people, not before. Do they want to rout ISIS? After they attacked the Kurds, I seriously doubt it. This entire buffer zone effort looks to me to be solely a means to push ISIS away from the Turkish border, nothing more.
Everyone knows that ISIS cannot be eliminated with air power. Foot soldiers must march in and take them out. We just spent $500 million to train Syrian insurgents which has produced only 60 fighters. The only foot soldiers willing to march in are the Kurds. Turkey takes shot at them the first chance they get.
There are no friends in the Middle East. Everyone is playing everyone else against each other. There are only temporary associations, no true allies. It's all "what can you do for me, today."
Why can't our diplomatic core figure this out?. ISIS will now play the Kurds against Turkey. They know how to win in this ballpark.
5
"There are no friends in the Middle East."
That should be tattooed on the back of every congressman's and senator's hand, the hand they use to accept donations. .
That should be tattooed on the back of every congressman's and senator's hand, the hand they use to accept donations. .
1
Could anyone believe that the Turkish military will fight ISIS as tenaciously and effectively as the Kurds? I doubt Erdogran will send any significant Turkish forces into ground combat against ISIS in Syria. He just wants the US to help secure his border, while he weakens the Kurds, helping ISIS, which weakens Assad, Erdogran's true target.
4
One might celebrate this alliance of convenience while hoping for the positive outcome of dealing a mortal wound to the cancer of death and destruction represented by ISIS. Any such optimism, however, must be blunted by Turkey's simultaneous military attack against our natural ally in the anti-ISIS struggle, namely the Kurds of northern Iraq.
The Kurds of northern Iraq has proven to be the only indigenous force willing and capable of standing up to ISIS effectively. Attacking these Kurds from the rear not only weakens their ability to confront ISIS at the front, it also makes the US complicit in back-stabbing a stout and formerly credible ally.
www.endthemadnessnow.org
The Kurds of northern Iraq has proven to be the only indigenous force willing and capable of standing up to ISIS effectively. Attacking these Kurds from the rear not only weakens their ability to confront ISIS at the front, it also makes the US complicit in back-stabbing a stout and formerly credible ally.
www.endthemadnessnow.org
2
Millions of Kurds are peaceful, patriotic Turkish citizens. On the other hand, terrorists, Kurdish or otherwise, who threaten Turkey and her citizens should be punished. Turkish armed forces could turn the entire region into glass by the weekend. Unfortunately, Turkey appears ready to accept more suffering in exchange for a measured response to those who wish to see her kneel.
2
Americans are used to war as a two-dimensional event with the good guys fighting the bad guys.
The Middle East is a world of multidimensional warfare where each faction can be both allies and enemies to each other faction. This is mind-boggling for most people raised on simpler two-dimensional wars. We can only hope that the strategists in the State Department and Defense are more skilled at this complexity.
The Middle East is a world of multidimensional warfare where each faction can be both allies and enemies to each other faction. This is mind-boggling for most people raised on simpler two-dimensional wars. We can only hope that the strategists in the State Department and Defense are more skilled at this complexity.
2
What is to be gained by Turkey attacking the Kurds? Never heard the old saying, "Let sleeping dogs lie... "
1
Once again, we have entered into the "Alice in Wonderland" terrain that is the Middle East where friends become enemies and enemies friends. So, while Iran, our enemy and a charter member of the "axis of evil," helps us and the Iraqis fight ISIS, we now have our NATO ally, Turkey, attacking our most effective "boots on the ground" force, the Kurds under cover of assisting in the battle against ISIS. Until the U.S. develops a political plan, that is a post-ISIS vision, we will stumble from one contradictory military alliance to another. Turkey is an invaluable ally, but it has long been waging a war with its own Kurdish nationalists. Until that issue is resolved, it will be a chaotic relationship that may cause more problems than it solves. Given the arbitrary nature of the nations formed by the British and French after World War I, it may be time to revisit whether or not to establish a Kurdish state in Syria. As the largest ethnic minority in Syria, there is much to argue in favor of this. It would provide a homeland for both Syrian and Turkish Kurds and provide the "boots on the ground" so essential to ever pushing ISIS out of the region while simultaneously solving Turkey's Kurdish problem and giving them an even greater incentive to seal their border to ISIS recruits, something they've started to do, and making them a much more effective partner in combating ISIS.
1
Perhaps the biggest problem in the Middle East is the lack of reliable allies. In both Syria and Iraq, our only consistently reliable allies - and the only ones that have been able to stem the tide of ISIS - are the Kurdish militia. If the Turkish government (i.e., Erdogan) continues to attack them, the US needs to take clear action (not hide behind the "right to self-defense" nonsense - would we stick to that principle if Assad decides to bomb Turkey?).
Fortunately, it is easy to pressure Erdogan: economic sanctions. The only reason Erdogan was re-elected is because he has managed to attract lots of Western business (incl. many US investments) through his own brand of autocratic laissez-faire capitalism. He will do ANYTHING to prevent that from drying up.
So: Obama wields a big, effective stick here. If he decides not to use it, the loss of Kurdish lives (and the loss of our one reliable ally) will be on his head.
Then again, our ever heartless US Chamber of Commerce would choose Erdogan over those Kurdish lives any day. Heck, they would back ISIS if it were profitable.
Fortunately, it is easy to pressure Erdogan: economic sanctions. The only reason Erdogan was re-elected is because he has managed to attract lots of Western business (incl. many US investments) through his own brand of autocratic laissez-faire capitalism. He will do ANYTHING to prevent that from drying up.
So: Obama wields a big, effective stick here. If he decides not to use it, the loss of Kurdish lives (and the loss of our one reliable ally) will be on his head.
Then again, our ever heartless US Chamber of Commerce would choose Erdogan over those Kurdish lives any day. Heck, they would back ISIS if it were profitable.
2
The Sultan has his own plans. He wants to be elected Dictator for life. When attacked by Daesh, he retaliates against PKK, in order to set the stage of events that lead to his desired constitutional changes. His eventual election will seem completely legitimate. The former opening towards the Kurds turns out to be an attempted means rather than an end.
3
There is a big misperception given by this article. It talks as if PKK is fighting for a valid cause. This is silly. PKK is a terrorist group. It seems that US has long picked the wrong side by supporting the Kurdish terrorist groups. Given that Turkey and US have partnered many years under the NATO umbrella since 1952, this approach is not acceptable or understandable. It must be known that PKK is no different than ISIS in that they both kill innocent people for an ideology; one is Marxist separatist, the other is religous. You cannot have a strong ethical standing by favoring one terrorist group over another. PKK has been designated as a terrorist group by NATO long ago. I am glad that finally common sense works. The biggest enemy of the Kurdish people are these terrorist groups which spread false ideologies and condemn generations of people to living in horrible conditions.
6
After long neglecting to enter the fight against ISIS, Turkey's entree into the fighting appears to be a cover for its battle against the Kurds. With its large army, and NATO-equipped air force, Turkey could have entered the fray a long time ago. Now, they are attacking our ally in the fight against ISIS. The United States needs to continue to support the Kurds, and ought to make sure that Turkey's mass arrests are directed at ISIS and not at Kurds.
1
Assuming that Turkey's involvement in one side of the never-ending Middle Eastern wars is not a US-inspired revival of the Ottoman Empire's expansionist drive, how many people would believe the sincerity of this policy as lately announced by the Islamist president of Turkey? In an opinion pole last week in the French newspaper Le Figaro, 70% of several tens of thousands of readers were mistrustful of Turkey's reliability in this fight.
1
Erdogan is drumming up anti-Kurdish sentiment among nationalists, probably hoping to reverse (in the next election) the humiliating slap he suffered from the moderate Kurdish party (in the last election).
How about stopping the flow of stolen oil from ISIS to Turkey? We don't see any reports on that, although these oil revenues are known to be the main source of financing for ISIS. Erdogan's unique style: Transparent hypocrisy.
How about stopping the flow of stolen oil from ISIS to Turkey? We don't see any reports on that, although these oil revenues are known to be the main source of financing for ISIS. Erdogan's unique style: Transparent hypocrisy.
2
TURKEY is founded by "Turkified Ethnic Groups" after the fall of Ottoman Empire as the original Turks are now a minority of about 5%.
AS such it has instituted Anti-Kurdish, Anti-Persian, Anti-Alavi, Anti-Greek, Anti-Georgian, Anti-Armenian and in short, Anti-Everybody, has "Invented a new Turkish Grammar & Alphabet" that is NOT intelligible by the Turks of Northwestern China where they came from and is the cause of ridicule by the Uzbeks, Oguz, Uygurs and Kazaks.
THIS is a Country built on an "Illusion" and has a Dark History of Ethnic Genocides, the last one being the Armenian Genocide of 1915.
THE Salvation of Turkey rests in "Recognizing Its Multi-Ethnic Nature", allowing various groups to practice their Language, Religion and Culture Freely & Without Prejudice and "Let Go Of The Ottoman Dream".
Turkey from the beginning should have adopted a Multi-Cultural Character/Name (Republic of Anatolia) with an official Lingua Franca such as Persian as the official Language of the Ottoman Palace was Persian so was the Language of Administering the Empire.
AS such it has instituted Anti-Kurdish, Anti-Persian, Anti-Alavi, Anti-Greek, Anti-Georgian, Anti-Armenian and in short, Anti-Everybody, has "Invented a new Turkish Grammar & Alphabet" that is NOT intelligible by the Turks of Northwestern China where they came from and is the cause of ridicule by the Uzbeks, Oguz, Uygurs and Kazaks.
THIS is a Country built on an "Illusion" and has a Dark History of Ethnic Genocides, the last one being the Armenian Genocide of 1915.
THE Salvation of Turkey rests in "Recognizing Its Multi-Ethnic Nature", allowing various groups to practice their Language, Religion and Culture Freely & Without Prejudice and "Let Go Of The Ottoman Dream".
Turkey from the beginning should have adopted a Multi-Cultural Character/Name (Republic of Anatolia) with an official Lingua Franca such as Persian as the official Language of the Ottoman Palace was Persian so was the Language of Administering the Empire.
Turkey's actions relating to Syria and ISIL are shameful. In its zeal to force a change of power in Syria, Turkey has allowed the free flow of people and resources into Syria, to the benefit of ISIS. It has stood by as millions of Syrian civilians have been displaced, maimed, or killed. Only now, after a bombing in its territory, does Turkey take action against ISIL, no doubt because it has (flimsy) cover to reengage with the PKK, in Iraq and elsewhere.
Turkey's conduct-- both in aiding bloodshed in Syria by taking sides and in its refusal to act earlier-- is appalling. Turkey and other states-- Arab, Iran, Western-- that have provided or facilitated flows of arms, fighters, and other resources that have been used to destroy Syria should be held accountable.
The international system has utterly failed Syrians, and it is high time that we acknowledge that principles and laws are not the ends of the international system, but tools for powerful states and actors to achieve their ends, no matter how primitive. Shame on Turkey, the United States, the Arabs, Iran, and the "international community" for aiding or allowing the utter destruction of Syria to force a change of power. The consequences of this catastrophe will play out for decades.
Separately, NYT, please stop referring to ISIL as the "Islamic State also known as "ISIS." ISIL/ISIS is not a state. The tendency of Western media to describe it as such without qualification is dubious, at best.
Turkey's conduct-- both in aiding bloodshed in Syria by taking sides and in its refusal to act earlier-- is appalling. Turkey and other states-- Arab, Iran, Western-- that have provided or facilitated flows of arms, fighters, and other resources that have been used to destroy Syria should be held accountable.
The international system has utterly failed Syrians, and it is high time that we acknowledge that principles and laws are not the ends of the international system, but tools for powerful states and actors to achieve their ends, no matter how primitive. Shame on Turkey, the United States, the Arabs, Iran, and the "international community" for aiding or allowing the utter destruction of Syria to force a change of power. The consequences of this catastrophe will play out for decades.
Separately, NYT, please stop referring to ISIL as the "Islamic State also known as "ISIS." ISIL/ISIS is not a state. The tendency of Western media to describe it as such without qualification is dubious, at best.
4
US is yet again showing it is ugly and unfortunate attitude toward the Kurds and their modest political aspiration in Middle East. The current agreement or understanding cedes the control of what happening in Syria to Turkey who not only have bombed PKK strong hold in South Kurdistan (Northern Iraq) but have succeeded to convince US policy makers to shunt the heroic Kurdish resistance in Syria additionally US have promised Turkey to prevent Kurds to liberate Aleppo from Assad's forces. This nothing new US policy new since most of us remember the betrayal of Kissinger of Kurds in 1975, Reagan unholy support with Saddam Hussain in 1988 resulting in the massacre of the Kurds, failure of Bush senior to protect the Kurds and other Iraqi after 1991 war and the failure of American Policy maker to take a chance to change Iraq from its current and past failed state to a federated democracy after 2003 war.
1
Turkey has been watching chaos develop on its southern border for several years and has done nothing. It has clearly tolerated the transit of people with Islamic connections going from Europe to Syria and Iraq to join ISIS. At the same time it has permitted thousands of refugees from Syria to settle in Turkey, mostly along the southern border. The recent election where a Kurdish friendly party got enough votes to deny Erdogan a majority in parliament has contributed to upsetting the Turkish apple cart. As others have said, Erdogan's change of heart in letting the US use Turkey as a base for its own operations against ISIS is as much about letting Turkey push back against its own Kurdish citizens as it is about being an international partner.
I think the US is generally clueless about the complicated ethnic and religious politics. When Obama announced US operations against ISIS last fall I had the sense that he and our government had little understanding of what they were getting into. And the destruction of the state of Iraq by GWB et al set the stage for much of what has followed.
Then there's Yemen which is getting destroyed.
The one bright spot is the prospect of a deal with Iran over restraining its nuclear program. We should proceed with that and not let our Republicans, mostly clueless and ignorant, prevent our reaping the fruit of good diplomacy.
I think the US is generally clueless about the complicated ethnic and religious politics. When Obama announced US operations against ISIS last fall I had the sense that he and our government had little understanding of what they were getting into. And the destruction of the state of Iraq by GWB et al set the stage for much of what has followed.
Then there's Yemen which is getting destroyed.
The one bright spot is the prospect of a deal with Iran over restraining its nuclear program. We should proceed with that and not let our Republicans, mostly clueless and ignorant, prevent our reaping the fruit of good diplomacy.
48
The Turkish attack on the Kurds reminds us that not everyone in the region looks at the conflicts and tensions through US-tinted glasses. We may be concerned about ISIS but at least some segments of the Turkish military and polity are more interested in bashing the Kurds. We may be fighting Al-Qaeda but there are repeated reports Israel is aiding Al-Qaeda wounded in Syria. Members of Congress vilify Iran while Iranians on the ground stiffen opposition to ISIS in Iraq. We arm the Saudis whose campaign in Yemen furthers the spread of anti-American feeling there. In short we insert ourselves as players in the region but must recognize old frictions and new alliances pull others into action in ways we cannot control but for which we will be tarnished with responsibility.
79
Are you kidding? Israel aiding Al Qaeda? Where do you get your facts from the Ayatollah?
1
Or to put it in another way, US military involvement in the Middle East (overt or covert) largely is the result of lobbying efforts by international oil moguls and weapons merchants who hope to profit thereby.
Turkey wants to continue control of areas within Turkey which lie along threatened borders. Kurds want an independent Kurdistan carved out of areas currently governed by Turkey, Iraq, and Iran. Sunnis want to control Muslim areas without interference from Shiittes, et vice versa. Zionists wish to expand their territory and Muslims (of both stripes) wish to reclaim former Muslim controlled territory.
The US -- short of pandering to the interest of certain oil industry lobbyists and weapons makers -- has very little at stake. We are not even dependent on Middle Eastern oil exports, which mostly come from Saudi Arabia and never represented more that 7% of our domestic oil consumption.
Turkey wants to continue control of areas within Turkey which lie along threatened borders. Kurds want an independent Kurdistan carved out of areas currently governed by Turkey, Iraq, and Iran. Sunnis want to control Muslim areas without interference from Shiittes, et vice versa. Zionists wish to expand their territory and Muslims (of both stripes) wish to reclaim former Muslim controlled territory.
The US -- short of pandering to the interest of certain oil industry lobbyists and weapons makers -- has very little at stake. We are not even dependent on Middle Eastern oil exports, which mostly come from Saudi Arabia and never represented more that 7% of our domestic oil consumption.
3
Did Turkey shift, or was that us?
Turkey was always willing to do this, if we agreed to a no fly zone and an area inside Syria they could put the refugees. Also, they wanted things concerning the Kurds.
Looks like Turkey got exactly what they wanted. Finally. They waited us out.
Turkey was always willing to do this, if we agreed to a no fly zone and an area inside Syria they could put the refugees. Also, they wanted things concerning the Kurds.
Looks like Turkey got exactly what they wanted. Finally. They waited us out.
39
There is no evidence that Turkey has negotiated any "things concerning the Kurds" with the U.S. What do you have in mind specifically? I really doubt the U.S. is selling-out the Syrian Kurds in any respect; in fact the pressure is more likely on Turkey to make compromises.
Mark, you say it like it is a good thing but it really isn't. There was a reason that Erdogan was denied safe zones. If we gave him what he asked for none of the Kurds would have fought ISIL, not the Pesh Merga, not the PKK, not the Syrian Kurds. The U.S. Was using Kurdish fighters with lots of promises, including their dream of independence. They did so but now we now say "ha ha we fooled you again." First Bush Sr. Managed to get them to rise up against Saddam, who turned around and gassed them. And now Obama tricked them into fighting while colluding with Erdogan to not only short change them, but bomb them.
Does everyone we label as terrorist really is one? The terror list is written in pencil. The Republican Guard of Iran suddenly dropped off that list, and so did Al Nusra and all the other flavored of Al-Qaeda. Taliban can now negotiate with U.S. Personnel in Doha, Qatar, where an office was opened for them. Labeling the PKK terrorists was to appease Erdogan and get him to serve NATO better.
It was Turkey that betrayed the Kurds after using them to to slaughter the Armenians. When their dirty job was done Turkey turned on them. Kids, All Kurds, have legitimate rights that have been denied since 1919. Whether some turned into con artists as a way to survive does not negate the original issue. We should not abuse any of the Kurds because Ahmad Chalabi with Divk Cheney fooled Congress into invading Iraq. It was Cheney who used him to establish credibility.
Does everyone we label as terrorist really is one? The terror list is written in pencil. The Republican Guard of Iran suddenly dropped off that list, and so did Al Nusra and all the other flavored of Al-Qaeda. Taliban can now negotiate with U.S. Personnel in Doha, Qatar, where an office was opened for them. Labeling the PKK terrorists was to appease Erdogan and get him to serve NATO better.
It was Turkey that betrayed the Kurds after using them to to slaughter the Armenians. When their dirty job was done Turkey turned on them. Kids, All Kurds, have legitimate rights that have been denied since 1919. Whether some turned into con artists as a way to survive does not negate the original issue. We should not abuse any of the Kurds because Ahmad Chalabi with Divk Cheney fooled Congress into invading Iraq. It was Cheney who used him to establish credibility.
18
I couldn't agree more. I just spent several months in Turkey and the Turks I talked to speak of the Kurds separating themselves in the larger population centers and bringing in radicals from the south. This is not a good position for a robust modern Turkey, as the Kurds continue to resist integration into the whole of Turkish life to the point of self isolation in most areas.
2
Report after report, including a report in the New York times, has made it clear that what Turkey is after above all is attacking and driving away Kurds from Kurdish land. "Turkey's shift" is above all waging war against the Kurds, and that is as tragic as it was needless since peace with the Kurds could have easily been achieved for Turkey. Evidently peace with the Kurds was not the intent of the Turkish government.
96
Very true. The Turks care nothing about the Sunnis and the Shia battling it out in Mesopotamia and Assyria. Kurdistan, however, is where the water is originates for that entire area, and whoever controls the water will control that part of the world in the 21st Century.
4
Dear Nancy,
From your comment, I understand that you do not follow what is happening in Turkey recently. You just follow NYT articles I think. Otherwise, you should have known that Turkey is NOT ATTACKING Kurds. Turkey was forced to attack PKK, and you should know why. Turkey tried for more than 9 years to implement a peace process, and even beared with PKK for years. BUT WHAT HAPPENED RECENTLY?. Without any reason, PKK declared on July 11 that it ended the ceasefire, and successively for the last two weeks, there is at least one terrorist attack every day. Do you think that Turkey should have just watched it? NO... EVEN PATIENCE IS JUST TO SOME POINT.
From your comment, I understand that you do not follow what is happening in Turkey recently. You just follow NYT articles I think. Otherwise, you should have known that Turkey is NOT ATTACKING Kurds. Turkey was forced to attack PKK, and you should know why. Turkey tried for more than 9 years to implement a peace process, and even beared with PKK for years. BUT WHAT HAPPENED RECENTLY?. Without any reason, PKK declared on July 11 that it ended the ceasefire, and successively for the last two weeks, there is at least one terrorist attack every day. Do you think that Turkey should have just watched it? NO... EVEN PATIENCE IS JUST TO SOME POINT.
4
Turkey is the logistical support for ISIS. Turkey hates the idea of a Kurdish State, particularly a pan Kurdish State, which would encompass Kurds from Iran, Turkey, Syria, and Iraq. It will go to war to prevent it. ISIS is overstepping its bounds, so Turkey may bomb them.
Assad is Alawite Shia. He is anti ISIS. He is anti Al Qaeda. He is allied with Iran. Iran is the enemy of ISIS. Iran is the enemy of al Qaeda.
Saudi Arabia and the Sunni Royals spawned ISIS. ISIS is fighting a surrogate war for them. Israel prefers ISIS to Iran, because Israel has its own multi trillion cu. ft. gas reserves, which it wants to push through Syria to Europe. The US wants to block Iran from gas distribution, but it doesn't want ISIS to establish a State.
The United States attacks the allies of Iran who are the enemy of ISIS, therefore the US must attack Assad. But Assad is the enemy of ISIS. CRAZY ISN'T IT!
Assad is Alawite Shia. He is anti ISIS. He is anti Al Qaeda. He is allied with Iran. Iran is the enemy of ISIS. Iran is the enemy of al Qaeda.
Saudi Arabia and the Sunni Royals spawned ISIS. ISIS is fighting a surrogate war for them. Israel prefers ISIS to Iran, because Israel has its own multi trillion cu. ft. gas reserves, which it wants to push through Syria to Europe. The US wants to block Iran from gas distribution, but it doesn't want ISIS to establish a State.
The United States attacks the allies of Iran who are the enemy of ISIS, therefore the US must attack Assad. But Assad is the enemy of ISIS. CRAZY ISN'T IT!
4