"It wants to use it well." Really? Where's the evidemce of that? Germany actually seems to be anxious to create conditions that may result in blood on the streets of Athens -- meaning that their primary form of entertainment remains their traditional one.
2
The Russians annexed Crimea after the Crimean Parliament voted to leave Ukraine after the US backed coup which the Times keeps trying to memory hole...
https://consortiumnews.com/2015/01/06/nyt-still-pretends-no-coup-in-ukra...
And, Mr. Cohen - you may want to revisit google news links for the time period after the coup.
The ethnic Russian eaterners, who voted for the guy the street Nazis and CIA helped kick out, began occupying building as they had done at Maidan.
Kiev's response?
Start killing its own people - and this paper, shamelessly, began peddling the idea that Putin stirred up trouble. Trouble followed the US-backed coup, and the putsch regime's immediate violence. Completely false reports of Russian regular military involvement came fast and furious.
http://www.globalresearch.ca/ukraine-military-high-command-confirms-no-r...
You're entitled to your own opinion, sir.
You are not entitled to your own facts.
https://consortiumnews.com/2015/01/06/nyt-still-pretends-no-coup-in-ukra...
And, Mr. Cohen - you may want to revisit google news links for the time period after the coup.
The ethnic Russian eaterners, who voted for the guy the street Nazis and CIA helped kick out, began occupying building as they had done at Maidan.
Kiev's response?
Start killing its own people - and this paper, shamelessly, began peddling the idea that Putin stirred up trouble. Trouble followed the US-backed coup, and the putsch regime's immediate violence. Completely false reports of Russian regular military involvement came fast and furious.
http://www.globalresearch.ca/ukraine-military-high-command-confirms-no-r...
You're entitled to your own opinion, sir.
You are not entitled to your own facts.
It's a culture issue. The protestant north, the catholic south. Those who have beautiful weather and beaches and those who don't. The arc of history seems to bend towards the disciplined and technological, whether it be ancient Rome or Germany today. Whether or not Europe can continue to bind these disparate cultures together as one economic/political force only time will tell, but certainly it's fascinating anthropology.
1
Ah, too bad. Just earlier today, after reading Neil Irwin's latest nonsense, I said "now Cohen is the only NYT commentator one can still read" (especially after Krugman lost his marbles over Greece).
And now this. I guess no one escapes the reality-distortion field around everything EU-Germany-Greece at the NYT ?
The German question is only back in the parallel reality created on these pages!
Over in the real world Europe is actually ever more united and nobody is worrying about Germany.
To wit:
of the 18 Eurozone countries other than Greece at least 15 fully supported the German position -- and in fact many (for example Finland) had a much harsher stance that Germany had to soften. Even Italy wasn't really opposed and France -- come on, really?! Hollande and Merkel were clearly just acting good-cop-bad-cop for Tsipras (Hollande can't stand that guy).
And speaking of Hollande -- ask any Dutch what they think of Germany nowadays: they are completely in sync, and not because the Dutch are easily intimidated! And the Polish -- they actually requested that Germany spend *more* on military (!), as a hedge against Putin's psychopathy.
The British -- sure, they make their usual anti-EU noises. But they are still suffering phantom pain from losing their Empire, and the EU has spoiled their centuries-old racket of "let's monger some war on the continent so that we can have our way with the rest of the globe".
But you wouldn't know any of this just from reading the NY Times.
And now this. I guess no one escapes the reality-distortion field around everything EU-Germany-Greece at the NYT ?
The German question is only back in the parallel reality created on these pages!
Over in the real world Europe is actually ever more united and nobody is worrying about Germany.
To wit:
of the 18 Eurozone countries other than Greece at least 15 fully supported the German position -- and in fact many (for example Finland) had a much harsher stance that Germany had to soften. Even Italy wasn't really opposed and France -- come on, really?! Hollande and Merkel were clearly just acting good-cop-bad-cop for Tsipras (Hollande can't stand that guy).
And speaking of Hollande -- ask any Dutch what they think of Germany nowadays: they are completely in sync, and not because the Dutch are easily intimidated! And the Polish -- they actually requested that Germany spend *more* on military (!), as a hedge against Putin's psychopathy.
The British -- sure, they make their usual anti-EU noises. But they are still suffering phantom pain from losing their Empire, and the EU has spoiled their centuries-old racket of "let's monger some war on the continent so that we can have our way with the rest of the globe".
But you wouldn't know any of this just from reading the NY Times.
15
For all those who think that Greece is only going through a much-needed adjustment to now finally live within its means should look again. Accepting that previous governments for decades over-spent and Greece borrowed to support a higher lifestyle, the banks in Germany and France did make bad loans. The question now, with those loans taken over the the governments of these countries, what would make sense. By no means does the German approach help Greece or the Eurozone. An insightful analysis by Barry Eichengreen is attached:
http://www.project-syndicate.org/commentary/greece-debt-agreement-risks-...
http://www.project-syndicate.org/commentary/greece-debt-agreement-risks-...
3
Correct me please, but my sense is that the working class citizens of any nation that borrows don't really see much if any of the monies borrowed. If my assessment is valid where does the borrowed money go?
5
I heard yesterday on the BBC news how some famous toy store in New York shut down the doors after three decades.
The reporter pointed out that it failed to adopt to the new world. He mentioned that the other stores survived by offering the completely new set of services to the young customers like piercing the ears to their dolls or having a lunch with them.
Do you really believe that this kind of business could survive after balancing the federal budgets and dramatically increasing our taxes?
If such a kind of jobs disappeared in Greece I really don't care and find it liberating and in their best long-term interest.
I feel sorry for us for still being on the wrong course...
The reporter pointed out that it failed to adopt to the new world. He mentioned that the other stores survived by offering the completely new set of services to the young customers like piercing the ears to their dolls or having a lunch with them.
Do you really believe that this kind of business could survive after balancing the federal budgets and dramatically increasing our taxes?
If such a kind of jobs disappeared in Greece I really don't care and find it liberating and in their best long-term interest.
I feel sorry for us for still being on the wrong course...
Of course, if we started living within our means, all those luxury clubs, spas, beauty salons and bars, the overpriced restaurants, the dozens of the specialized TV stations and channels, and all those unnecessary bureaucratic jobs would suddenly disappear. But, that’s a very good thing. Those fancy jobs were never needed in the first place.
If the Greeks were manufacturing the I-phones, laptops, clothing, the cars, the equipment, the ships, or the food, they would still be able to have their jobs, export those goods or consume locally and get paid.
The problem is that the old Greek governments spent those 300 billion euros on creation of the jobs and services nobody really needed.
It was predestined that those jobs would disappear with the first sign of the economic troubles or interrupted credit lines.
If the Greeks were manufacturing the I-phones, laptops, clothing, the cars, the equipment, the ships, or the food, they would still be able to have their jobs, export those goods or consume locally and get paid.
The problem is that the old Greek governments spent those 300 billion euros on creation of the jobs and services nobody really needed.
It was predestined that those jobs would disappear with the first sign of the economic troubles or interrupted credit lines.
1
Germany is playing the most important role in the Greek history.
As the famous Chinese proverb says: “Don’t give a fish to a hungry person; teach him how to catch one”
Germany is teaching the Greeks how to be responsible and self-sufficient, how to collect the taxes, how to control their spending and how to live within their means.
If Greece were able to accomplish those crucial tasks on her own, Germany would not be involved at all.
You bet that the responsible way of doing business leads to the tectonic structural changes in the wrongly set-up economy. All those luxury-spending-based jobs and businesses suddenly disappear; only the essential ones are proven as viable and necessary.
You don’t need the money to revamp economy.
You just start producing the things the people truly need and barter them.
That’s how the New Deal reinvigorated America. Just put the people to work and exchange the goods they produce. It’s the humane desire to be creative that makes them work, not the money...
Do you know how many hours of creativity we put into writing those comments without anybody paying us for that, in contrast to the columnists who get paid for doing exactly the same kind of work?
As the famous Chinese proverb says: “Don’t give a fish to a hungry person; teach him how to catch one”
Germany is teaching the Greeks how to be responsible and self-sufficient, how to collect the taxes, how to control their spending and how to live within their means.
If Greece were able to accomplish those crucial tasks on her own, Germany would not be involved at all.
You bet that the responsible way of doing business leads to the tectonic structural changes in the wrongly set-up economy. All those luxury-spending-based jobs and businesses suddenly disappear; only the essential ones are proven as viable and necessary.
You don’t need the money to revamp economy.
You just start producing the things the people truly need and barter them.
That’s how the New Deal reinvigorated America. Just put the people to work and exchange the goods they produce. It’s the humane desire to be creative that makes them work, not the money...
Do you know how many hours of creativity we put into writing those comments without anybody paying us for that, in contrast to the columnists who get paid for doing exactly the same kind of work?
9
The problem, as Mr. Krugman puts it very well is the "Roach Motel Economics" of the Eurozone, where Germany has no incentive to reflate and the countries of the southern periphery are locked into indefinite austerity. See the attached link:
http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2015/07/13/roach-motel-economics/?modul...®ion=Body
Also, it's interesting that Mrs. Thatcher before she left office opposed German reunification with the prescient argument that indeed this would inevitably lead to Germany bossing around and mistreating weaker countries.
http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2015/07/13/roach-motel-economics/?modul...®ion=Body
Also, it's interesting that Mrs. Thatcher before she left office opposed German reunification with the prescient argument that indeed this would inevitably lead to Germany bossing around and mistreating weaker countries.
3
Germany wouldn't even be a country today if the world hadn't bestowed debt forgiveness on them, not once, but twice, including after the Germans had exterminated 6 million people in the name of white supremacy. Whenever I hear Germans and their callous leader chastising Greeks for not "following the rules" I think about how efficiently the Germans were able to stuff millions of people into ovens. I'll take a Mediterranean sensibility over Germany efficiency any day of the week.
4
Love the phrase "laxer and more flexible". A fig leaf for endemic corruption.
2
I would like to see Europe support hospitals, schools, infrastructure in Greece, bypassing the banks and government if possible. As to "slacker" Greece, don't the US blue states go a fair way toward supporting the red states? The letter writer who brings up the Versailles treaty brings up a great point, too. Never a good idea to grind down a country (or states) out of anger or revenge.
1
I have good news for you -- Europe *is* supporting hospitals, schools and infrastructure in Greece, and has been doing so since 1981, to the tune of many hundred billions !
It's called EU infrastructure assistance funds, Greece has been by far the greatest benefactor of all the EU nations, ever (and Germany the largest contributor to that fund, also ever).
As for bypassing the Greek government -- yeah, that would be nice, but that wasn't in the cards, so Europe held its nose and, knowing that a good share of the money would end up embezzled, sent -- and keeps sending -- large amounts of support anyways.
And no, the Versailles Treaty comparison is not a great point. It is an incredibly bad point, actually:
Because, see, the Treaty of Versailles was actually indeed designed to be extremely harmful to Germany. No money was going to be sent to Germany and instead Germany was made to pay large sums to the Entente countries, for no other reason than to hurt it. Also it was not allowed to have any armed forces.
Meanwhile, the bailout offer to Greece is very specifically designed to *help* Greece. 100 billion more will be sent to Greece. And the points on the supposedly harsh list are actually reforms that will make the Greek economy competitive and self-sufficient. Greece will also get continued institutional and infrastructure support. Oh, and they are allowed to have the largest armed forces per capita in NATO (look it up: they have 3x as many tanks as the German army !).
It's called EU infrastructure assistance funds, Greece has been by far the greatest benefactor of all the EU nations, ever (and Germany the largest contributor to that fund, also ever).
As for bypassing the Greek government -- yeah, that would be nice, but that wasn't in the cards, so Europe held its nose and, knowing that a good share of the money would end up embezzled, sent -- and keeps sending -- large amounts of support anyways.
And no, the Versailles Treaty comparison is not a great point. It is an incredibly bad point, actually:
Because, see, the Treaty of Versailles was actually indeed designed to be extremely harmful to Germany. No money was going to be sent to Germany and instead Germany was made to pay large sums to the Entente countries, for no other reason than to hurt it. Also it was not allowed to have any armed forces.
Meanwhile, the bailout offer to Greece is very specifically designed to *help* Greece. 100 billion more will be sent to Greece. And the points on the supposedly harsh list are actually reforms that will make the Greek economy competitive and self-sufficient. Greece will also get continued institutional and infrastructure support. Oh, and they are allowed to have the largest armed forces per capita in NATO (look it up: they have 3x as many tanks as the German army !).
7
It would be nice to see an end to the false comparison between debt relief to a physically destroyed country that was then cut in half & gifted to the Soviets for fifty years and one that's been subsidized for a decade.
6
The Germans always get blamed for everything.
A century ago, the northern neighbors of Greece (at that time) misbehaved equally badly.
The Serbian Secret Service was emotionally overwhelmed with the great military victories in two Balkan Wars in which Serbia defeated the Ottoman Empire first and Bulgaria later.
So they looked westward toward the Habsburg Empire and wanted to spread in that direction too.
Nobody cared that the Austro-Hungarian Empire previously for centuries welcomed the Serbian refugees during the Ottoman occupation of the Balkans, opened the doors for them and let the people resettle to avoid being ruled by a non-Christian occupying force.
The Serbian Secret Service aspired to annex those territories too under a genocidal idea that all the Serbs should live in a single state. Of course, that would be a very good idea if the Serbs didn’t live mixed with the other people – the Macedonians, the Albanians, the Bulgarians, the Croats, the Bosnians, the Hungarians... Mythic desire to live in a single state led Serbia to fight them all.
Thus they organized, financed and trained a terrorist organization that assassinated the heir to the Habsburg throne during his visit to Sarajevo.
Vienna wanted to launch a police investigation to find the culprits but Belgrade refused. Moscow unconditionally supported Serbia in the same way it blocked the UN Resolution condemning genocide in Srebrenica a week ago.
Somehow, eventually, all of the above was German fault...
A century ago, the northern neighbors of Greece (at that time) misbehaved equally badly.
The Serbian Secret Service was emotionally overwhelmed with the great military victories in two Balkan Wars in which Serbia defeated the Ottoman Empire first and Bulgaria later.
So they looked westward toward the Habsburg Empire and wanted to spread in that direction too.
Nobody cared that the Austro-Hungarian Empire previously for centuries welcomed the Serbian refugees during the Ottoman occupation of the Balkans, opened the doors for them and let the people resettle to avoid being ruled by a non-Christian occupying force.
The Serbian Secret Service aspired to annex those territories too under a genocidal idea that all the Serbs should live in a single state. Of course, that would be a very good idea if the Serbs didn’t live mixed with the other people – the Macedonians, the Albanians, the Bulgarians, the Croats, the Bosnians, the Hungarians... Mythic desire to live in a single state led Serbia to fight them all.
Thus they organized, financed and trained a terrorist organization that assassinated the heir to the Habsburg throne during his visit to Sarajevo.
Vienna wanted to launch a police investigation to find the culprits but Belgrade refused. Moscow unconditionally supported Serbia in the same way it blocked the UN Resolution condemning genocide in Srebrenica a week ago.
Somehow, eventually, all of the above was German fault...
2
mr. cohen - please write a reply to this question: why is it that the northern european countries have solid economies, strong work ethic, and respect for order and rules vs. the (more or less) opposite in the countries in southern europe? is it because of the weather that induces hard work in the winter and the sun and sea in the south leads to feelings of relaxation, less work, and don't worry about tomorrow? and i have read Jared Diamond, but have my doubts re: his thesis.
to be sure, i don't like the fact that Greece lied by cooking its books to get into the EU and has since never taken any steps to collect taxes on the rich, etc. etc.
to be sure, i don't like the fact that Greece lied by cooking its books to get into the EU and has since never taken any steps to collect taxes on the rich, etc. etc.
6
German rigidity was an aspect of German fascism and it it is an aspect of what's wrong with the way Germany's leadership is dealing with Greece and other nations in the Eurozone. But rigidity is not fascism. German soldiers have not marched into Greece and occupied it. The Germans are demanding a virtual occupation in return for a bailout. But Greece doesn't have to accept Germany's bad deal. Greece can exit the eurozone and create its own currency. If Greece's legislature accepts Germany's bad deal, it will benefit only the wealthy and be very bad for most of the people.
The Germans always get blamed for everything.
A century ago, the northern neighbors of Greece (at that time) misbehaved equally badly.
The Serbian Secret Service was emotionally overwhelmed with the great military victories in two Balkan Wars in which Serbia defeated the Ottoman Empire first and Bulgaria later.
So they looked westward toward the Habsburg Empire and wanted to spread in that direction too.
Nobody cared that the Austro-Hungarian Empire previously for centuries welcomed the Serbian refugees during the Ottoman occupation of the Balkans, opened the doors for them and let the people resettle to avoid being ruled by a non-Christian occupying force.
The Serbian Secret Service aspired to annex those territories too under a genocidal idea that all the Serbs should live in a single state. Of course, that would be a very good idea if the Serbs didn’t live mixed with the other people – the Macedonians, the Albanians, the Bulgarians, the Croats, the Bosnians, the Hungarians... Mythic desire to live in a single state led Serbia to fight them all.
Thus they organized, financed and trained a terrorist organization that assassinated the heir to the Habsburg throne during his visit to Sarajevo.
Vienna wanted to launch a police investigation to find the culprits but Belgrade refused. Moscow unconditionally supported Serbia in the same way it blocked the UN Resolution condemning genocide in Srebrenica a week ago.
Somehow, eventually, all of the above was German fault...
A century ago, the northern neighbors of Greece (at that time) misbehaved equally badly.
The Serbian Secret Service was emotionally overwhelmed with the great military victories in two Balkan Wars in which Serbia defeated the Ottoman Empire first and Bulgaria later.
So they looked westward toward the Habsburg Empire and wanted to spread in that direction too.
Nobody cared that the Austro-Hungarian Empire previously for centuries welcomed the Serbian refugees during the Ottoman occupation of the Balkans, opened the doors for them and let the people resettle to avoid being ruled by a non-Christian occupying force.
The Serbian Secret Service aspired to annex those territories too under a genocidal idea that all the Serbs should live in a single state. Of course, that would be a very good idea if the Serbs didn’t live mixed with the other people – the Macedonians, the Albanians, the Bulgarians, the Croats, the Bosnians, the Hungarians... Mythic desire to live in a single state led Serbia to fight them all.
Thus they organized, financed and trained a terrorist organization that assassinated the heir to the Habsburg throne during his visit to Sarajevo.
Vienna wanted to launch a police investigation to find the culprits but Belgrade refused. Moscow unconditionally supported Serbia in the same way it blocked the UN Resolution condemning genocide in Srebrenica a week ago.
Somehow, eventually, all of the above was German fault...
4
If Germany wanted to subsidize and take care of Greece financially, politically, diplomatically and economically like the U.S. does for Israel, they could be the inseparable allies too...
The question is what country got it right in the long term.
History will have this question clearly answered one day.
The problem is that by paying the bills without asking any questions tends to live a country on the wrong course.
We could start preparations for the celebration of 5-decade long Israeli occupation of the West Bank and the Golan Heights.
Should we analyze how our current foreign policy benefited us?
We have ended up in the prolonged conflict with both the Sunnis and the Shiites.
Being involved in three-sided foreign wars with everybody fighting everybody is something that brings us down to the tribal level of the local population.
That’s why we are fighting in Syria against both the Assad regime and the ISIS hoping that one day a friendly alternative to us might finally emerge.
If we waged our foreign policy better we wouldn’t be in such a dire situation.
If we know that we messed up our foreign affairs, does it make any sense to give the advices to anybody else?
The question is what country got it right in the long term.
History will have this question clearly answered one day.
The problem is that by paying the bills without asking any questions tends to live a country on the wrong course.
We could start preparations for the celebration of 5-decade long Israeli occupation of the West Bank and the Golan Heights.
Should we analyze how our current foreign policy benefited us?
We have ended up in the prolonged conflict with both the Sunnis and the Shiites.
Being involved in three-sided foreign wars with everybody fighting everybody is something that brings us down to the tribal level of the local population.
That’s why we are fighting in Syria against both the Assad regime and the ISIS hoping that one day a friendly alternative to us might finally emerge.
If we waged our foreign policy better we wouldn’t be in such a dire situation.
If we know that we messed up our foreign affairs, does it make any sense to give the advices to anybody else?
4
Mr. Cohen,
Please, don’t criticize the Germans but learn from them.
Watch carefully how to correctly treat you partners and allies.
You don’t let them stray and stay on the wrong course by endlessly subsidizing their mistakes and wrong decisions.
You get directly involved and teach them how to wage the domestic and foreign affairs better and smarter.
You don’t let your junior partners dictate you how to wage your affairs. Those who pay the bills provide the marching orders too.
By the way, any similarity to the relationship between America and Israel is intentional.
Please, don’t criticize the Germans but learn from them.
Watch carefully how to correctly treat you partners and allies.
You don’t let them stray and stay on the wrong course by endlessly subsidizing their mistakes and wrong decisions.
You get directly involved and teach them how to wage the domestic and foreign affairs better and smarter.
You don’t let your junior partners dictate you how to wage your affairs. Those who pay the bills provide the marching orders too.
By the way, any similarity to the relationship between America and Israel is intentional.
6
Ah, too bad. Just earlier today, after reading Neil Irwin's latest nonsense, I said "now Cohen is the only NYT columnist one can still read" (especially after Krugman lost his marbles over Greece).
And now this. I guess no one escapes the reality-distortion field around everything EU-Germany-Greece at the NYT ?
The German question is only back in the parallel reality created on these pages!
Over in the real world Europe is actually ever more united and nobody is worrying about Germany.
To wit:
of the 18 Eurozone countries other than Greece at least 15 fully supported the German position -- and in fact many (e.g. Finland) had a much harsher stance that Germany had to soften. Even Italy wasn't really opposed and France -- come on, really?! Hollande and Merkel were clearly just acting good-cop-bad-cop for Tsipras (Hollande can't stand that guy).
And speaking of Hollande -- ask any Dutch what they think of Germany nowadays: they are completely in sync, and not because the Dutch are easily intimidated! And the Polish -- they actually requested that Germany spend *more* on its military (!), as a hedge against Putin's psychopathy.
The British -- sure, they make their usual anti-EU noises. But they are just still suffering phantom pain from losing their Empire, and the EU has spoiled their centuries-old racket of "let's monger some war on the continent so meanwhile we can have our way with the rest of the globe".
But you wouldn't know any of this just from reading the NY Times.
And now this. I guess no one escapes the reality-distortion field around everything EU-Germany-Greece at the NYT ?
The German question is only back in the parallel reality created on these pages!
Over in the real world Europe is actually ever more united and nobody is worrying about Germany.
To wit:
of the 18 Eurozone countries other than Greece at least 15 fully supported the German position -- and in fact many (e.g. Finland) had a much harsher stance that Germany had to soften. Even Italy wasn't really opposed and France -- come on, really?! Hollande and Merkel were clearly just acting good-cop-bad-cop for Tsipras (Hollande can't stand that guy).
And speaking of Hollande -- ask any Dutch what they think of Germany nowadays: they are completely in sync, and not because the Dutch are easily intimidated! And the Polish -- they actually requested that Germany spend *more* on its military (!), as a hedge against Putin's psychopathy.
The British -- sure, they make their usual anti-EU noises. But they are just still suffering phantom pain from losing their Empire, and the EU has spoiled their centuries-old racket of "let's monger some war on the continent so meanwhile we can have our way with the rest of the globe".
But you wouldn't know any of this just from reading the NY Times.
9
Here is a little thought experiment to put German taxpayers' "heartlessness" in the Greece crisis into perspective:
1. Replace "Greece" with "Columbia" or even better for emotional impact: "Mexico"
2. Keep all the fiscal irresponsibility the same (not collecting taxes, lying about their finances etc.)
3. Replace "Germany" with "USA"
4. Update the previous loan amounts to reflect the size of the U.S. economy
5. That would make about $350 billion already loaned (about $1,100 for every citizen) and most likely lost.
Now Mexico is asking you for further loans because they are broke again. How charitable are you feeling?
1. Replace "Greece" with "Columbia" or even better for emotional impact: "Mexico"
2. Keep all the fiscal irresponsibility the same (not collecting taxes, lying about their finances etc.)
3. Replace "Germany" with "USA"
4. Update the previous loan amounts to reflect the size of the U.S. economy
5. That would make about $350 billion already loaned (about $1,100 for every citizen) and most likely lost.
Now Mexico is asking you for further loans because they are broke again. How charitable are you feeling?
14
Maybe the best thing is to let Greece fail. Crash flat. Maybe then they will themselves clean up the mess and stop blaming everybody else.
2
It makes little sense to portray Germany as the bad guy here. History not withstanding, Germany did not force the Euro on any other country. Greece not only knew what they were getting themselves into, they cooked their books in order to get in. (Any government knows it's impossible to have a common currency without having a common fiscal policy so Greece knowingly agreed to act more like Germany just by joining the Euro) In other words, Greece lied about their credit-worthiness before the first loan was given and has continued to lie -as they apparently never had any intention of making the basic reforms the loans were predicated on - ever since. Most of these so-called "austerity" reforms are considered basic housekeeping for you and me, ie actually paying their taxes and not over-spending their budgets. And so now that Germany , along with every other Eusopean country, has said enough to the frankly childish government in Greece, they are the bad guys?
7
It's time to turn the page on Germany's Nazi past. The Germany that exists today is a model for how a country should be run.
5
I definitely never voted for Merkel and do not agree how Germany treated Greece during the recent negotiations. But reading so much unfound German-hatred from a country that I was told is our best friend is outright shocking.
I was born in the late 1960´s and my parents were toddlers when the war ended and both generations could not grasp how the Hitler regime and the millions of deaths (be that the killed Jews or the Russians) could ever have happened in this country. I tried to understand the Holocaust during many years of history lessons at school, by participating in various projects and by school exchanges with former enemies. It is strange that no one talks about the millions of killed Native Americans, the millions of tortured slaves, the millions of killed Vietnamese and the misery that the US brought over Iraq & Afghanistan, not to speak about the many innocent inmates in Guantanamo who were tortured and mentaly destroyed when the US follows an egocentric economic policy, spies on the world and kills people in many countries by abusing drones. To compare Germany in the year 2015 with Nazi-Germany is disgusting and tells me that the author hasn´t understood a thing although he claims that he has lived here. Germany was economically strong before the Euro was introduced, but rather the (way too harsh) economic reforms in the early 2000´s which brought workers lower incomes, temporary contracts and less job security have kept Germany competitive and not the Euro alone
I was born in the late 1960´s and my parents were toddlers when the war ended and both generations could not grasp how the Hitler regime and the millions of deaths (be that the killed Jews or the Russians) could ever have happened in this country. I tried to understand the Holocaust during many years of history lessons at school, by participating in various projects and by school exchanges with former enemies. It is strange that no one talks about the millions of killed Native Americans, the millions of tortured slaves, the millions of killed Vietnamese and the misery that the US brought over Iraq & Afghanistan, not to speak about the many innocent inmates in Guantanamo who were tortured and mentaly destroyed when the US follows an egocentric economic policy, spies on the world and kills people in many countries by abusing drones. To compare Germany in the year 2015 with Nazi-Germany is disgusting and tells me that the author hasn´t understood a thing although he claims that he has lived here. Germany was economically strong before the Euro was introduced, but rather the (way too harsh) economic reforms in the early 2000´s which brought workers lower incomes, temporary contracts and less job security have kept Germany competitive and not the Euro alone
8
A signal from my son who was recently on Donegal's western shores (something to do with Gaelic): the Irish are now no longer blaming England for everything, he said. They're blaming Germany.
1
The documentary "Let's Make Money" explains how the IMF uses loans and debt to exert political domination over numerous African countries. The same thing is happening to Greece, which now looks to a future of no growth and an economy devoted to endless debt servicing (not a good emotional climate for growth). This is a form of fiscal enslavement and a destruction of Greece's sovereignty. I think Greece would have been better off defaulting and printing their own money and getting back on their own feet, on their own. Maybe they could hire consultants from Iceland. There is still time: the Parliament has to approve the deal. They could vote NO.
5
"Gemeinsam sind wir stark", because we surely are? Fig leafs aside: we are all equals, though some nations are slightly more tender-footed than others, and clearly lack the maturity, and indeed responsibility to be appropriate custodians of their country? "Nachdem wir gehen, laufen wir"
It is human nature to be jealous of those that do better than ourselves, or have more; it is indeed, usually the case that people have more through hard work, and learning from the mistakes of the past. The Germans do many things, very well; its about time other nations took a leaf out of there book!
Man ist entweder frei oder nicht... (Which can be construed in many different ways) If Germany are the dominant force within a unified brood of nations; it must be because they are stronger? so why don't others within this brood become stronger, rather than being a sycophantic whinger?
I'm merely posing questions, rather than purveying lucubration, or indeed lubrication!
Entity's cannot be incubated indefinitely, and must hatch; fledge; fly etc. etc.
It is human nature to be jealous of those that do better than ourselves, or have more; it is indeed, usually the case that people have more through hard work, and learning from the mistakes of the past. The Germans do many things, very well; its about time other nations took a leaf out of there book!
Man ist entweder frei oder nicht... (Which can be construed in many different ways) If Germany are the dominant force within a unified brood of nations; it must be because they are stronger? so why don't others within this brood become stronger, rather than being a sycophantic whinger?
I'm merely posing questions, rather than purveying lucubration, or indeed lubrication!
Entity's cannot be incubated indefinitely, and must hatch; fledge; fly etc. etc.
1
tl;dr: this has everything to do with Greek citizens and absolutely nothing to do with the marred history of Germany.
The similarities between this crisis and the one in 1945 are nominal at best. I don't think Europe is faced with a quandary of how to deal with German power, it's faced with a quandary of how to deal with a country in the eurozone that's in arrears with various lenders, and especially how to do so without disrupting markets and states more so than necessary. It merely took the Greek crisis for many American pundits and columnists to realize that yes, the German economy is strong. The comparison to Stunde Null, which does have two L's I might add, is overblown because the current state of affairs really contains very little cynicism toward Germany and its economic prowess. No, the German Question is not back and it's almost disgraceful for that to be said on so prominent a platform. Littering your article with misspelled German words doesn't change that.
The similarities between this crisis and the one in 1945 are nominal at best. I don't think Europe is faced with a quandary of how to deal with German power, it's faced with a quandary of how to deal with a country in the eurozone that's in arrears with various lenders, and especially how to do so without disrupting markets and states more so than necessary. It merely took the Greek crisis for many American pundits and columnists to realize that yes, the German economy is strong. The comparison to Stunde Null, which does have two L's I might add, is overblown because the current state of affairs really contains very little cynicism toward Germany and its economic prowess. No, the German Question is not back and it's almost disgraceful for that to be said on so prominent a platform. Littering your article with misspelled German words doesn't change that.
3
Most of these issues rely on the advices of 'experts', and there follows here one of those conundrums that defies political grandstanding or claimed economic superiority.
The origins of the present Greek debt crisis go back to the first debt deal in 2001 when 'experts' at Goldman Sachs used some 'creative accounting' methods to disguise the real scenario (RBReich). Now Greece owes 300 bn, most of this debt occurring before the present Greek gov was elected (that sounds like a familiar theme).
Not long after this the 'Stability and Growth Pact', which included agreed rules about overspending and government deficits, was breached - not by Greece,Italy, Portugal - but by the 2 govs who had pushed for this legislation: Germany and France. No penalties were imposed.
In 2009 the German gov had to nationalise the troubled HRE Bank.In 2010 HRE contributed 216.3 billion to Germany's debt. Then, in 2011 the European Commission approves a loan of 175 bn to aid the recovery of this 1 bank! Later in the same year an 'accounting error' is discovered in HRE that now makes the German gov 55bn richer. An accounting error of 55bn.
It therefore seems apparent to me that the level of expertise that is generally assumed to be available really does not exist. In the final analysis is there actually much space between the definitions of corruption or incompetence or ignorance or negligence?
No one exits from this debacle with any real credibility. EU principles have been irreparably damaged.
The origins of the present Greek debt crisis go back to the first debt deal in 2001 when 'experts' at Goldman Sachs used some 'creative accounting' methods to disguise the real scenario (RBReich). Now Greece owes 300 bn, most of this debt occurring before the present Greek gov was elected (that sounds like a familiar theme).
Not long after this the 'Stability and Growth Pact', which included agreed rules about overspending and government deficits, was breached - not by Greece,Italy, Portugal - but by the 2 govs who had pushed for this legislation: Germany and France. No penalties were imposed.
In 2009 the German gov had to nationalise the troubled HRE Bank.In 2010 HRE contributed 216.3 billion to Germany's debt. Then, in 2011 the European Commission approves a loan of 175 bn to aid the recovery of this 1 bank! Later in the same year an 'accounting error' is discovered in HRE that now makes the German gov 55bn richer. An accounting error of 55bn.
It therefore seems apparent to me that the level of expertise that is generally assumed to be available really does not exist. In the final analysis is there actually much space between the definitions of corruption or incompetence or ignorance or negligence?
No one exits from this debacle with any real credibility. EU principles have been irreparably damaged.
2
If Germany stays in the background they are asked why not taking the lead.
If Germans take the lead and their policies do not meet expectations they are soon the 'ugly Germans' again.
So no matter what we do, we are always the bad guys...
Germans never welcomed the Euro, they were forced to accept it and they did so under
the condition that it would be nearly as stable as the Deutsche Mark.
(This stability also attracted the Greek people who were used to high inflation...)
In the end it turned out positive and the German exports grew.
Unfortunately some fellow Europeans forget the other circumstances in Germany.
The re-unification with Eastern Germany had a huge impact on Germany economy and
trillions of Euros were spend. High unemployment led to the unpopular Hartz reforms.
And the aging population led to changes in pensions. We practised what we preach.
Lessons learned:
- we have a global market, being less competetive only helps China
- you can't spend more than you earn, somebody will pay for it (usually the tax payer)
Back to Greece...
There is no direct German translation for austerity. What comes closest is 'budget discipline'.
This seems to be a foreign word to Greece as well. As long as Greece is not able have a
balanced budget we can cut all their debt ... and they would right away start new debt.
Without harsh reforms this cycle cannot be broken.
If Germans take the lead and their policies do not meet expectations they are soon the 'ugly Germans' again.
So no matter what we do, we are always the bad guys...
Germans never welcomed the Euro, they were forced to accept it and they did so under
the condition that it would be nearly as stable as the Deutsche Mark.
(This stability also attracted the Greek people who were used to high inflation...)
In the end it turned out positive and the German exports grew.
Unfortunately some fellow Europeans forget the other circumstances in Germany.
The re-unification with Eastern Germany had a huge impact on Germany economy and
trillions of Euros were spend. High unemployment led to the unpopular Hartz reforms.
And the aging population led to changes in pensions. We practised what we preach.
Lessons learned:
- we have a global market, being less competetive only helps China
- you can't spend more than you earn, somebody will pay for it (usually the tax payer)
Back to Greece...
There is no direct German translation for austerity. What comes closest is 'budget discipline'.
This seems to be a foreign word to Greece as well. As long as Greece is not able have a
balanced budget we can cut all their debt ... and they would right away start new debt.
Without harsh reforms this cycle cannot be broken.
7
Greeks do have a modest budget surplus now. All of it and the loans they get from EU all go to pay just the "interest" on the old loans. The German, US and other private banks had a irresponsible lending feast knowing fully well that they controlled enough levers of politicians in all countries that they could convert their private risk taking into public loan- all the IMF money was used to pay the private bankers first. The banks, with their supporters in the European govts, converted their risky loans into public loans of these countries. So at the end, neither Greek people nor the European people benefited. Just the loan sharks and the rich and corrupt among the Greeks.
I am sure, you are aware, the the surplus this years results from not paying bills by the Greek government.
Details and mathematics are not a miracle.
Details and mathematics are not a miracle.
How do the Germans make so many things that others want to buy?
5
We will have order. And no one gets bailed out. (Except us, with the Marshall Plan and 50% debt forgiveness after WWII.)
1
Mr. Cohen makes sense of the historical machinations leading up to this momentous debacle called the Eurozone crisis. An ascendant Germany after WW II treating Greece like an upstart colony makes a mockery of the 50 million lives lost in that war.
1
There does not seem to be any ambivalence among Europeans about Germany. They all resent Germany, and it runs deeper that the Europeans’ impatience with German fondness for rules and orderliness. That kind of minor resentment, actually just annoyance, is what Europeans generally feel about the Swiss. No, the negative feeling towards Germany is a stronger brew of envy, distrust and resignation.
Germany’s handling of the Greek financial crisis has not won many friends in the United States, but in Europe the perceived Greek irresponsibility had been so exasperating that an austere, overbearing Germany is easier to accept. It’s the scolding from Berlin that grates on many other Europeans – some wondering how frequent and threatening those lectures will become, and on what range of topics, as Germany grows more comfortable in its leadership role.
Germany’s handling of the Greek financial crisis has not won many friends in the United States, but in Europe the perceived Greek irresponsibility had been so exasperating that an austere, overbearing Germany is easier to accept. It’s the scolding from Berlin that grates on many other Europeans – some wondering how frequent and threatening those lectures will become, and on what range of topics, as Germany grows more comfortable in its leadership role.
1
Mr. Cohen perhaps understates the date at which German economic power begat chaos in the Balkans. In the early '90s when Croatia and Slovenia declared their national independence, they received immediate recognition from the German government while the US government hesitated but was eventually overwhelmed because of Germany's already powerful economy. This added two new markets for Germany to dominate, consistent with the outlines of the Hapsburg Empire, while it visited misery on the peoples of the former Yugoslavia who had to suffer the warfare on the ground.
2
A few years ago US authors announced that the US pivot to the Pacific would leave Germany with a role in Europe the US had had until then. Quite a piece of Sci-Fi by then, but here we are. I do not agree with the author when he states that ruminations about German power now just feel quaint. The doubts are still there, and with strength. After its criminal nazi period, Germany went into a deliberate low-profile for three generations and has now been pushed into a high profile it never had the opportunity to train for. That shows. On the other side, Germany has been pouring billions into the construction of the EU - from 1991 to 2011, 45% of total net contributions, a huge amount of solidarity - whilst financing reunification. I should be glad to read this deed acknowledged from time to time. The current German economic strength comes from a transitory demand from emerging markets and from weaknesses of its neighbours. That will not last. So Germany wants to have strong neighbours with solid economies, who live on their own earnings rather than on spending their grandchildren's income in advance and feeding the next debt crises and surrendering sovereignty to the financiel industry (as most democracies do, USA included). Why do so many people so eagerly try to interpret German intentions in the most negative way possible? And why do they single out Germany, when a number of euro zone members entertain very similar positions?
9
I'm reading a lot of references to Germany's Nazi dictatorship in comments about Germany's handling of the Greek debt crisis.
So is everything the US does to be judged in the light of centuries of slavery, of millions of people, kidnapped, treated like animals, with families sold away from each other forever, and living with the threat of violence, in a dictatorship existing within the land of the constitution?
And the after effects of legal lynchings, and then apartheid only legislated away in my lifetime, and are still being acted out now with police brutality, mass incarceration, and treasonous flags hung on state buildings?
Once could say the Nazis were an abnormal exception to German culture, admittedly militaristic traditionally. But US troops were racially segregated fighting WW2. The US ideology of white supremacy is not such an exceptional abnormality, but is a continuing American disease we live with now.
Does this past affect how we treat the world? Room for Debate?
So is everything the US does to be judged in the light of centuries of slavery, of millions of people, kidnapped, treated like animals, with families sold away from each other forever, and living with the threat of violence, in a dictatorship existing within the land of the constitution?
And the after effects of legal lynchings, and then apartheid only legislated away in my lifetime, and are still being acted out now with police brutality, mass incarceration, and treasonous flags hung on state buildings?
Once could say the Nazis were an abnormal exception to German culture, admittedly militaristic traditionally. But US troops were racially segregated fighting WW2. The US ideology of white supremacy is not such an exceptional abnormality, but is a continuing American disease we live with now.
Does this past affect how we treat the world? Room for Debate?
9
When Germany was the "sick man of Europe" over a decade ago (British comment) everybody gloated. Now Germany pays more than anyone into the EU and the people have gone and are still going through the pain of low salary increases (if at all) and tax hikes.. Now the comment is "Nazis"! What is it Europe or, for that matter, the U.S. wants? After all Goldman Sachs helped Greece cheat their way into the EU!
9
All that matters now is that it is a far different world then 1945 or even 1980's of the Reagan Era. These German folks are not Nazis by a long shot. The real issues and problem is the fundamentally flawed economic system, which is teetering to tip over and one can hardly blame Germany for caution. All in all the Euro is not a joke any more other world currency. Except as was the Italian Lira. What the good Mr. Roger Cohen is forgetting that the all mighty US itself has some over $20 plus trillion federal deficit and some over $17 plus trillion debt to the Chines, Arabs and others. At least what good can be said about Germany is that it is not at war just about any where in the world . That lesson was well headed and of great comfort to Germans as well as other EU nations. All this American notion that the Euro is an experiment is just wishful thinking.
The Greece problems are of its own making due to millionaires, billionaires and upper class elite plus freaking corrupt to the hilt politicians and the like paying zero or bare minimum taxes and the Greece's own crooked timber of humanity. As far as NATO it is nothing more then one big facade. We ought to remember that to start with at it's creation the French had nothing much to do with it. Now as it stands UK does not even have one working Carrier. It was with good decency and integrity that both Germany and France said No to Bush W. / Cheney and Blair fraud war on Iraq.
The Greece problems are of its own making due to millionaires, billionaires and upper class elite plus freaking corrupt to the hilt politicians and the like paying zero or bare minimum taxes and the Greece's own crooked timber of humanity. As far as NATO it is nothing more then one big facade. We ought to remember that to start with at it's creation the French had nothing much to do with it. Now as it stands UK does not even have one working Carrier. It was with good decency and integrity that both Germany and France said No to Bush W. / Cheney and Blair fraud war on Iraq.
2
The United States needs to intervene in Greece. There is no good in turning Greece into a wasteland, a vacuum that could be filled by extremists, or Russia. For that reason, it becomes an issue of national security. Greece is of great strategic importance; more so than Israel, where we focus too much interest. Greek-Americans need a lobbying group as powerful as AIPAC. As for Germany, Angela Merkel has gotten too big for her "hose". Obama, the conciliator, needs to become Obama, the chairman of the board, and quit tiptoeing around Merkel like she is some Germanic warrior from a Wagner opera.
1
Many people are at fault:
1) The politicians who promised all the goods & services that they knew was unsustainable;
2) The bankers who gave out loans when they weren't warranted;
3) The people who didn't have a skeptical eye on the promises.
I feel that 1) & 2) shoulder the greatest blame because they were SUPPOSED to be the responsible parties. In fact, the banks, to me, are the most reprehensible because it is one of their essential jobs to properly calculate risk and they didn't. Prior to the Euro, Greece borrowed @ 18% and after the Euro they borrowed @ 3%. This was a recipe for disaster.
Banks are supposed to say NO when people are not trustworthy to pay and they didn't.
As for the politicians and the people: a) are we really surprised when politicians only have self interest at heart? and b) are we surprised when the public is stupid and has no idea how to be responsible?
1) The politicians who promised all the goods & services that they knew was unsustainable;
2) The bankers who gave out loans when they weren't warranted;
3) The people who didn't have a skeptical eye on the promises.
I feel that 1) & 2) shoulder the greatest blame because they were SUPPOSED to be the responsible parties. In fact, the banks, to me, are the most reprehensible because it is one of their essential jobs to properly calculate risk and they didn't. Prior to the Euro, Greece borrowed @ 18% and after the Euro they borrowed @ 3%. This was a recipe for disaster.
Banks are supposed to say NO when people are not trustworthy to pay and they didn't.
As for the politicians and the people: a) are we really surprised when politicians only have self interest at heart? and b) are we surprised when the public is stupid and has no idea how to be responsible?
Germany can never be trusted period.
Let's not forget history, I don't know why the Europeans are not waking up to this simple fact.
Germany can never be trusted period!
Let's not forget history, I don't know why the Europeans are not waking up to this simple fact.
Germany can never be trusted period!
1
....developments thrust Germany into the very leadership role its history has taught it to mistrust? Scary how Mr Cohen is still playing the Nazi card 70 years after WW II has ended. Let´s face it: Germany is not only the engine ofthe European economy but also the anchor of anti nationalism and federalism in Europe today. I would much rather see a United Europe based on the modern day German federalist political concept than one based on the French or Greek centralist nation states.
5
Major events are often just the final bang of the slow burn of history.
Greece's ills today originated with the failings and corruption of many governments at the opposite end of the spectrum from Syriza. These same governments led Greece when it was accepted into the EMU. (Remember Rumsfeld shaking Saddam's hand while on a visit to Baghdad in 1983?) But Tsipras and Syriza will probably get full credit for this big bang in the history books.
Merkel is likely to receive accolades in the history books. Germany stood for its own banks (the biggest bailout in Europe), for its own export machine, and for its own people during and after the financial crisis. But could this be the moment that lights the fuse against Germany in the next slow burn of history?
But in a decade or two, when everything can definitively be made in Asia as well as it can be made in Germany – but at a far cheaper price – who will ask Germany to be a key trading partner? Who will see Germany as more than "another transaction?"
In the next crisis (military or economic), who will deem it worthwhile to aid Germany? Or, in a more politically integrated union, who will ever vote for a German?
In the slow march of history, are the Germans now more alone than they've been in sixty years?
Greece's ills today originated with the failings and corruption of many governments at the opposite end of the spectrum from Syriza. These same governments led Greece when it was accepted into the EMU. (Remember Rumsfeld shaking Saddam's hand while on a visit to Baghdad in 1983?) But Tsipras and Syriza will probably get full credit for this big bang in the history books.
Merkel is likely to receive accolades in the history books. Germany stood for its own banks (the biggest bailout in Europe), for its own export machine, and for its own people during and after the financial crisis. But could this be the moment that lights the fuse against Germany in the next slow burn of history?
But in a decade or two, when everything can definitively be made in Asia as well as it can be made in Germany – but at a far cheaper price – who will ask Germany to be a key trading partner? Who will see Germany as more than "another transaction?"
In the next crisis (military or economic), who will deem it worthwhile to aid Germany? Or, in a more politically integrated union, who will ever vote for a German?
In the slow march of history, are the Germans now more alone than they've been in sixty years?
Is it not true Euro is created so that : Together they will be prosperous or pose a challenge for dollar dominance ? If some one want's to achieve an objective , every one have to learn the best behavior from each other and work towards a common goal. Germany is precisely doing that !! is it not? I think Merkel is taking right approach , Greeks with history of past bailouts , they have to learn how they are going to get their business in order . They may get help now , but some one has to check the behavior of the nation , not to show false pride and be realistic or find ways to improve their GDP . I think Germany is preciously doing that with balance.
1
As Mr. Cohen writes, 70 years ago German hegemony was destroyed, yet here it is again dominating Europe.
Many Europeans still remember & bear the scars of Nazi atrocities. I remember a number of years ago, some German tourists entered a trattoria in Boves, Italy & the older woman who ran it refused to even acknowledge them, let alone serve them. The Waffen SS had massacred her village in 1943.
Of course, the Germans in their self-righteousness lay all the blame on the spendthrift Greeks. What the German government would have us believe is their banks didn’t know the risk of investing in Greek bonds so Greece could continue to buy German goods & support their export driven economy.
In fact, there were many countries that really didn’t meet the criteria for entry into the Eurozone, but were expected to join with the understanding that they would get their house in order (without any real enforcement).
All was fine until the Great Recession exposed all those bad loans, just as it did subprime mortgages in the U.S. And the same thing happened; instead of being forced to take a haircut, the banks were bailed out on the backs of the individual debtors.
At the end of WWII, most of the Allies favored turning Germany into an agrarian society so that they could never again threaten their neighbors with German power. Too bad, we can’t revisit that option.
Many Europeans still remember & bear the scars of Nazi atrocities. I remember a number of years ago, some German tourists entered a trattoria in Boves, Italy & the older woman who ran it refused to even acknowledge them, let alone serve them. The Waffen SS had massacred her village in 1943.
Of course, the Germans in their self-righteousness lay all the blame on the spendthrift Greeks. What the German government would have us believe is their banks didn’t know the risk of investing in Greek bonds so Greece could continue to buy German goods & support their export driven economy.
In fact, there were many countries that really didn’t meet the criteria for entry into the Eurozone, but were expected to join with the understanding that they would get their house in order (without any real enforcement).
All was fine until the Great Recession exposed all those bad loans, just as it did subprime mortgages in the U.S. And the same thing happened; instead of being forced to take a haircut, the banks were bailed out on the backs of the individual debtors.
At the end of WWII, most of the Allies favored turning Germany into an agrarian society so that they could never again threaten their neighbors with German power. Too bad, we can’t revisit that option.
1
Ah, too bad. Just earlier today, after reading Neil Irwin's latest nonsense, I said "now Cohen is the only NYT commentator one can still read" (especially after Krugman lost his marbles over Greece).
And now this. I guess no one escapes the reality-distortion field around everything EU/Germany/Greece at the NYT ?
The German question is only back in the parallel reality created on these pages!
Over in reality Europe is actually ever more united and nobody is worrying about Germany.
To wit:
of the 18 Eurozone countries other than Greece at least 15 fully supported the German position -- and in fact many (for example Finland) had a much harsher stance that Germany had to soften. Even Italy wasn't really opposed and France -- come on, really?! Hollande and Merkel were clearly just acting good-cop-bad-cop for Tsipras (Hollande can't stand that guy).
And speaking of Hollande -- ask any Dutch what they think of Germany nowadays: they are completely aligned, and not because the Dutch are easily intimidated! And the Polish -- they actually requested that Germany spend *more* on its military (!!), as a hedge against Putin's psychopathy.
The British -- sure, they make their usual anti-EU noises. But they are still suffering phantom pain from losing their Empire, and the EU has spoiled their centuries-old racket of "let's monger some war on the continent so that we can have our way with the rest of the globe".
But you wouldn't know any of this just from reading the NY Times.
And now this. I guess no one escapes the reality-distortion field around everything EU/Germany/Greece at the NYT ?
The German question is only back in the parallel reality created on these pages!
Over in reality Europe is actually ever more united and nobody is worrying about Germany.
To wit:
of the 18 Eurozone countries other than Greece at least 15 fully supported the German position -- and in fact many (for example Finland) had a much harsher stance that Germany had to soften. Even Italy wasn't really opposed and France -- come on, really?! Hollande and Merkel were clearly just acting good-cop-bad-cop for Tsipras (Hollande can't stand that guy).
And speaking of Hollande -- ask any Dutch what they think of Germany nowadays: they are completely aligned, and not because the Dutch are easily intimidated! And the Polish -- they actually requested that Germany spend *more* on its military (!!), as a hedge against Putin's psychopathy.
The British -- sure, they make their usual anti-EU noises. But they are still suffering phantom pain from losing their Empire, and the EU has spoiled their centuries-old racket of "let's monger some war on the continent so that we can have our way with the rest of the globe".
But you wouldn't know any of this just from reading the NY Times.
4
In case it was not clear before, it should be clear now; if you borrow money from German institutions, they expect to get paid back.
8
First Germany was irresponsible for lending Greece too much money. Now Germany is irresponsible for lending Greece too little money.
What's a responsible German supposed to do?
What's a responsible German supposed to do?
5
Germany runs the type of government that liberals in the US can only dream of: Free high-quality healthcare & education, extensive job training programs for young people, a cooperative labor/employer relationship, high rates of tax compliance, etc. All this and they are a technological powerhouse.
What is the difference between Germany & Greece? Greece wants to have a robust social welfare program but they don't want to pay taxes for it. Greece is ridden with corruption, legal barriers to competition, tax-avoiding elites, etc. that strangle the economy and cause economic harm to the average Greek.
Yet throughout the Greek crisis NYT editorials have focused their criticism on Germany while pretty much giving a free pass to the Greeks. The answer to the German "domination" that Mr. Cohen is so distraught about is easy: Greece needs to emulate Germany not bash it.
What is the difference between Germany & Greece? Greece wants to have a robust social welfare program but they don't want to pay taxes for it. Greece is ridden with corruption, legal barriers to competition, tax-avoiding elites, etc. that strangle the economy and cause economic harm to the average Greek.
Yet throughout the Greek crisis NYT editorials have focused their criticism on Germany while pretty much giving a free pass to the Greeks. The answer to the German "domination" that Mr. Cohen is so distraught about is easy: Greece needs to emulate Germany not bash it.
6
Canada has had an office of regional economic redistribution for over 50 years. It was widely understood that a Newfoundland fisherman would never make as much money as an Alberta oilman. And not because the fisherman was 'lazy' -- if anything, long hard hours and days on the cold rolling Atlantic offers a much more difficult life than drilling an oil well.
Similar mechanisms and evolution had better happen in Europe, and quickly, before Deutschland finds that there are no more Alles to be Uber over.
Similar mechanisms and evolution had better happen in Europe, and quickly, before Deutschland finds that there are no more Alles to be Uber over.
1
France cannot escape blame here. It is supposed to be a partner (and counterweight) to Germany, making French political and historical ideals felt, helping to discover what European Union shall mean. So where is Liberty, Equality, Fraternity? If the West isn't also growing towards and thinking about such things, then what is the West? A strong voice from France a few months ago - a sustained public affirmation and explanation of the obvious truths Greeks and international economists and experts were presenting - would have been very helpful at the negotiating table and taken some pressure off the Greek-German friction. Instead, despite a courageous and clumsy leap of faith from Tsipras and Varoufakis at the first negotiations, Greece got nothing but crickets from France (#cricketsfromFrance #nothingbutcricketsfromFrance). Austerity only makes the situation worse, for everyone. The debts have also been toxically (and criminally) inflated, at every opportunity. France needs to challenge the political ideology behind financial and industrial capital. This crisis is whether democracy controls finance capitalism, or the other way around. It is the crisis of our time (and the key to addressing our impending ecological ruin). As one former New York Times correspondent recently put it, "we are all Greece". France is too, and needs to democratically fight for democracy if Europe is to have one, otherwise the Germans take over.
1
"Much of the Greek bailout is really a bailout of German and French banks who lent money without checking whether the recipients were using the funds in ways that would make it possible to repay the debt."
So this time they DID check, and said: "No more money unless you give us reason to believe you're going to do what you promised to do."
Isn't that exactly what you say Germany should have done in the first place? Assuming you're correct about that, shouldn't Germany at least do it now (as it has) -- or would you prefer that Germany do once again the very thing you're complaining about?
So this time they DID check, and said: "No more money unless you give us reason to believe you're going to do what you promised to do."
Isn't that exactly what you say Germany should have done in the first place? Assuming you're correct about that, shouldn't Germany at least do it now (as it has) -- or would you prefer that Germany do once again the very thing you're complaining about?
5
It is too easy to pick on the Germans. I am not sure they wanted to lead Europe, they have assumed the mantle by default. The Brits are only half in and the French are in retreat, so who remains? They are not the only ones angry with the Greeks, just read comments from residents of many of the Northern European countries. Sure, austerity will not work. But, what are they supposed to do, give other countries the green light to not pay their debt by letting the Greeks off the hook?
6
The southern European nations should consider forming their own financial union. Their personality, character and culture is different from the northern countries, and they should go their own way.
6
Roger makes interesting observations but the truth of the matter is that modern Greece has been living beyond its meens for decades and not for the first time resists repaying its debt, not to Germany alone but to all EU tax payers who have born austerity constraints themselves without similar relief and repreated bail-outs. However, one good thing is that we understand that the newly to be appointed watch dogs will ensure that burden will not fall on the working and middle classes alone, as in the past, but on the Greek Oligarchs who, since time immemorial, have had a free ride at the expense of the rest of the population.
7
There are (at least) two aspects to this: First, Greece might well be better off if the Germans were in charge of the finances. If not in charge of everything. But then, second, in that case it would probably no longer be Greece, but something else. Greeceney? Germaneece? Would this be bad? Probably not for most Greeks. But I don't think anyone had that dramatic result in mind when the Euro was conceived and implemented, although they may have hoped for, or expected, a better economic outcome from Greece. The problem now is that Greece is hopelessly indebted, and likely to remain so. Is that truly what the Germans want? It seems pointless, and doesn't seem to help anyone, really. The truly rich won't care, and the poor will just remain poor.
3
Comments reveal ignorance of many details. Greece's entry into the eurozone was done not by tricking the zone--since everyone savvy knew exactly what was going on. How could they not? Goldman Sachs helped the Greeks develop the false books. At that time, Germany and the others wanted the euro to be all inclusive. Germany benefits hugely by having countries who export very little (Greece a prime case) so that the currency will stay low enough for the Germans (export central) to reap the rewards. If all the countries with little industry exited, the euro would soar and Germany would lose.
Greece was made an example to anyone else inclined to drop out!
Germany makes itself a villain once again by the way they treated the Greeks in this negotiation. Yes, with the help of the press they did win the propaganda war--as these comments reveal and as German public opinion reveals in repeating ignorant contempt for the Greeks. The final weekend became a pathetic psychodrama of humiliation. The Greeks were kicked when they were down. I think the names of Merkel and Schauble will be forever blackened by this. Our own administration, whose interest should be a strong, united Europe, allowed the ugliest outcome to prevail.
Greece was made an example to anyone else inclined to drop out!
Germany makes itself a villain once again by the way they treated the Greeks in this negotiation. Yes, with the help of the press they did win the propaganda war--as these comments reveal and as German public opinion reveals in repeating ignorant contempt for the Greeks. The final weekend became a pathetic psychodrama of humiliation. The Greeks were kicked when they were down. I think the names of Merkel and Schauble will be forever blackened by this. Our own administration, whose interest should be a strong, united Europe, allowed the ugliest outcome to prevail.
5
So you think its OK that every man, woman and child in Germany is owed over 1000 euros, (83 billion owed population 80 million) by Greece, a corrupt country where hairstylists can retire at 50, tax evasion is endemic and some people get a months bonus pay for nothing at the end of the year..
Were I Greek I would opt out of the Euro, they will be forced out later in any event, take the tremendous short term pain that will ensue and revive their old currency. It will be devalued of course but this is the only way to take control of their country and take responsibility for the own society. If they fail, again, they have no one to blame. If they succeed they will have created a model that they can live with and modify, as necessary, in the future. Economies in Europe are not on equal footing, they do not all have the same resources or, importantly, societal values. Greece cannot be a "southern Germany", it can only be Greece, for better or worse. I think it possible that after the Greeks put all the new requirements in place and receive more Euros their government will be voted out and the drachma will return.
Europeans, seventy years after World War II, have forgotten why they created transnational institutions in the first place. Seventy years is a couple of generations, but one would think that the wars in the former Yugoslavia would have reawakened in a newer generation the wisdom of European collectivity. For the youngest, common problems of terrorism, immigration, and Russian adventurism should be making an impression.
The biggest danger is, as Nick Fletcher commented to a related article, "[this]...acrimonious omnishambles of nationalist name-calling and bickering.... The most depressing thing is how quickly people have fallen back on the old ethnonationalist stereotypes - the lazy, feckless southern Europeans versus the joyless, domineering northern Europeans - when they should know better than to go anywhere near that sort of language because of where it has lead us in the past."
The European project and its social safety net developed under the American military umbrella. Europe could feel safe while spending little on defense. Unfortunately, that seems to have allowed Europeans to take too much for granted across the board, allowing leaders in Brussels and national capitols to drift apart, almost guaranteeing that Europeans would revert to national individualism.
A collapsing Europe is of great consequence not merely to Europeans, but to America itself. No other region with significant geopolitical presence more-or-less shares our values.
The biggest danger is, as Nick Fletcher commented to a related article, "[this]...acrimonious omnishambles of nationalist name-calling and bickering.... The most depressing thing is how quickly people have fallen back on the old ethnonationalist stereotypes - the lazy, feckless southern Europeans versus the joyless, domineering northern Europeans - when they should know better than to go anywhere near that sort of language because of where it has lead us in the past."
The European project and its social safety net developed under the American military umbrella. Europe could feel safe while spending little on defense. Unfortunately, that seems to have allowed Europeans to take too much for granted across the board, allowing leaders in Brussels and national capitols to drift apart, almost guaranteeing that Europeans would revert to national individualism.
A collapsing Europe is of great consequence not merely to Europeans, but to America itself. No other region with significant geopolitical presence more-or-less shares our values.
8
This is one of Roger's more depressing columns. However the comments are even more depressing, particularly those from overseas. I've thought of the EU as the most modern political creation by mankind--the solution to the persistent xenophobic tendency which has stunted human potential all over the world. For me the proverbial "shining city on the hill" has been in Europe, not in the U.S.. For at least a dozen years I've dismissed American criticism of the EU as mere sour grapes because ours is no longer the most modern political solution. Have I been naive? If the comments posted to this article are representative of current mainstream thinking in the EU I may have to conclude the answer is yes.
The peoples of the various component countries of Europe really need to get a grip and remember why they are together. Those who both inside and outside of the country who focus so tightly on perceived German excellence need to remember how much of the seminal design work came from the Italians, how much of the political framework came from the British and how much of the work/life balance came from the French. When the Europeans celebrate and exchange their differing forms of genius there is no place on earth that approaches the greatness of Europe.
The peoples of the various component countries of Europe really need to get a grip and remember why they are together. Those who both inside and outside of the country who focus so tightly on perceived German excellence need to remember how much of the seminal design work came from the Italians, how much of the political framework came from the British and how much of the work/life balance came from the French. When the Europeans celebrate and exchange their differing forms of genius there is no place on earth that approaches the greatness of Europe.
4
When will Mr. Cohen write an article entitled "The Greek Question Redux"?
Greece has already received two bailouts to the tune of $300 billion during the past five years. But, they still have to import most of their food, fuel and medicine without earning the necessary funds to pay for them. Apparently, their "far laxer and more flexible" culture doesn't seem to have made them more self-sufficient. As the president of Lithuania said, the Greeks want to party, but expect Europe, and those terrible Germans, to pay the bill.
Now they are broke again. Obviously, they have been living beyond their means. Other countries in Europe have a lower standard of living but, unlike Greece, are reforming and restructuring their economy to become competitive on world markets.
Why shouldn't the Germans, and those other disciplined and successful northern Europeans, try to make sure that they don't get fooled a third time by those wily Greeks?
As another poster said so succinctly, "... at the end of the day, we all know which economy will be footing the bill." The issue is not German domination, but Greece's failure to keep its previous promises to reform its byzantine economy and institutions.
P.S. By the way, some people seem to forget that most Nazis have long been dead. They are certainly not running the German state or economy today.
Greece has already received two bailouts to the tune of $300 billion during the past five years. But, they still have to import most of their food, fuel and medicine without earning the necessary funds to pay for them. Apparently, their "far laxer and more flexible" culture doesn't seem to have made them more self-sufficient. As the president of Lithuania said, the Greeks want to party, but expect Europe, and those terrible Germans, to pay the bill.
Now they are broke again. Obviously, they have been living beyond their means. Other countries in Europe have a lower standard of living but, unlike Greece, are reforming and restructuring their economy to become competitive on world markets.
Why shouldn't the Germans, and those other disciplined and successful northern Europeans, try to make sure that they don't get fooled a third time by those wily Greeks?
As another poster said so succinctly, "... at the end of the day, we all know which economy will be footing the bill." The issue is not German domination, but Greece's failure to keep its previous promises to reform its byzantine economy and institutions.
P.S. By the way, some people seem to forget that most Nazis have long been dead. They are certainly not running the German state or economy today.
9
Who takes the debate about the Euro as a German question, does not recognize the core of things.
It is a European issue.
It's about the alternative, whether Europe will become weaker or stronger.
Had the Europeans fulfilled all Greeks expectations, it could have been in other EU countries to similar political developments, some radical left, some right. It would have been a danger that Europe is falling apart and national egoism were to be realized in any form.
What is the current idea for the EU and the euro zone?
The idea is to make the individual states independent from any creditor, rating agencies, etc .. Are the reforms in the respective countries successfully made there will be more efficient public administrations, meaningful social systems. The respective economies will become more competitive. Since less money then has to be applied for debt service, there will bemore money for education, research and development, social care etc..
That was shortly outlined the theme of this debate.
Who deals with the German question or the viewing angle is narrowed to so-called austerity policies, paints the risk of Monster Europe on the wall, ignores the fact that we Europeans are going to make us fit for the future.
It is a European issue.
It's about the alternative, whether Europe will become weaker or stronger.
Had the Europeans fulfilled all Greeks expectations, it could have been in other EU countries to similar political developments, some radical left, some right. It would have been a danger that Europe is falling apart and national egoism were to be realized in any form.
What is the current idea for the EU and the euro zone?
The idea is to make the individual states independent from any creditor, rating agencies, etc .. Are the reforms in the respective countries successfully made there will be more efficient public administrations, meaningful social systems. The respective economies will become more competitive. Since less money then has to be applied for debt service, there will bemore money for education, research and development, social care etc..
That was shortly outlined the theme of this debate.
Who deals with the German question or the viewing angle is narrowed to so-called austerity policies, paints the risk of Monster Europe on the wall, ignores the fact that we Europeans are going to make us fit for the future.
3
You are exxagerating the power of Germany. Everyone in the American media as well as in Greece is always talking about Germany, Germany, Germany, as if it was the only country in the EU.
In fact there are 18 other countries (+ Greece), each with a democratically elected government which have to make every decision commonly.
And Germany is and was not the only or even strictest country where it's citizens or government wants to spend even more money in a black hole.
Helping people not to starve (emergency help was always assured) is very different from given billions of dollars a third time to a government nobodoy in the world currently trust to solve the Greece problem.
There are few countries like Germany who have denied their own interests so long. And now where it's finance minister suggests just one point of assuring own interests while EU has to give again 100 billions away, just because Greek's dangerous clown-negotiations have failed, Germany's power shall be dangerous for Europe or the world?? Silly.
You are drawing a picture that Germany is threatening anybody with it's "power"? Really? Have you just thought about the US power, and how it is using it, spying every ally, founding a "1984" system, and saying it's normal, everybody is doing it?
It is really astonishing how America is capable of streamlining the "free" news to assure the world again 1+1 equals 3.
Yes, nobody has to pay pack it's depts- until you owe something to an American company- like Argentina!
In fact there are 18 other countries (+ Greece), each with a democratically elected government which have to make every decision commonly.
And Germany is and was not the only or even strictest country where it's citizens or government wants to spend even more money in a black hole.
Helping people not to starve (emergency help was always assured) is very different from given billions of dollars a third time to a government nobodoy in the world currently trust to solve the Greece problem.
There are few countries like Germany who have denied their own interests so long. And now where it's finance minister suggests just one point of assuring own interests while EU has to give again 100 billions away, just because Greek's dangerous clown-negotiations have failed, Germany's power shall be dangerous for Europe or the world?? Silly.
You are drawing a picture that Germany is threatening anybody with it's "power"? Really? Have you just thought about the US power, and how it is using it, spying every ally, founding a "1984" system, and saying it's normal, everybody is doing it?
It is really astonishing how America is capable of streamlining the "free" news to assure the world again 1+1 equals 3.
Yes, nobody has to pay pack it's depts- until you owe something to an American company- like Argentina!
16
Agreed. The U.S. and other Western countries are more than happy to allow Germany to do the heavy lifting when it suits their purposes. Germany's economic success has benefited the entire continent, not just the Germans. The other countries wanted to avail themselves of German successes without adopting German discipline. Why would anyone think that Germany would allow others to benefit from its success without expecting them to adopt the practices it used to become successful?
1
There is no "German Question." Please talking about sweeping historical narratives, and all its symbolism, believing that any country-of 70 years ago, or even today-is a singular conscious moral agent. There is no person; simply today, current context, and our best assessment of current culture within fairly recent history. Empirically, longer history has been shown to be of limited use save for general patterns. Ironically, rife with its grand symbols, its mainly political rhetoric which can often prejudice, misinform and inhibit better understanding-if that's what we want.
5
It is true that the Euro,a blended currency,made German exports cheaper than they would have been with the Deutschmark and Greek imports cheaper than they would have been with the Drachma.However that is the extent to which Germany is responsible for the sad state of affairs Greece and other European countries find themselves in.Those wounds are self inflicted and result from systemic corruption,living beyond one's means,tax evasion and protectionist policies.Indeed,Germany managed the most recent global financial crisis better than most (including the US) and is doing more to handle the current immigration crisis than any other EU member.
12
Sorry Mr. Cohen ,but you have framed the question in a way that specifies Germany as a nemesis to Greece. Any country can be Germany. No country wants to be another, they may want attributes, such as wealth,etc. but a better way to look at it is the US Civil War. Europe has had one World War with a 20 year interval,plus millenia or two of wars, that the EU is trying to address . To equate Germany today with the 3rd Reich is unfathomable. What the Greeks need to realize is that Germany is not dictating anything, Europe is. Europe is 335 million people. Germany, Netherlands, Czechs, etc. are all asking why should they loan more money ,if all the Greeks are going to do is consistently ask for more money & do nothing to solve their financial black hole? Why do Greeks get to retire at 50 & the rest of Europe doesn't ? Why don't Greeks collect the taxes that are owed the people? Why do their accounting practices hide their debt? Stop making it a Greek versus the Germans. If the Greeks are allowed to have Europe assume their fiscal responsibility, how long can Europe exist? If the Greeks do not have stable finances or monetary unit, how will tourists pay for their visit to Greece? If Greeks think that they are being dictated to by Germany ,they have another 250 million Europeans to consider blaming in this fiscal mess,that's after they look into a mirror. Greeks are free to do what they want,whether it is cinching their belt or a Grexit. But the problem is not Germany.
24
It is interesting to read European commenters many of whom portray Germany as virtuous and Greece as a slacker. It will be prudent to remember that Germany, as Thomas Piketty pointed out in his recent interview with Die Zeit, benefited from the "London Debt Agreement of 1953, where 60% of German foreign debt was cancelled and its internal debts were restructured."
Moreover, when the newspaper commented, "Many Germans believe that the Greeks still have not recognized their mistakes and want to continue their free-spending ways, " Piketty answered, "If we had told you Germans in the 1950s that you have not properly recognized your failures, you would still be repaying your debts. Luckily, we were more intelligent than that."
Moreover, when the newspaper commented, "Many Germans believe that the Greeks still have not recognized their mistakes and want to continue their free-spending ways, " Piketty answered, "If we had told you Germans in the 1950s that you have not properly recognized your failures, you would still be repaying your debts. Luckily, we were more intelligent than that."
7
So, because of 1953 greece is not a slacker ?
Don't mix up totally different things, germany was rebuilding it's economy, the debt forgiveness 1953 was a push of a half year revenue - it helped, but it was not crucial for our economic path.
Greece already got several times Marshall, and a debt forgiveness several times that big as that of 1953, and nothing has been achieved.
Greece is a slacker.
Don't mix up totally different things, germany was rebuilding it's economy, the debt forgiveness 1953 was a push of a half year revenue - it helped, but it was not crucial for our economic path.
Greece already got several times Marshall, and a debt forgiveness several times that big as that of 1953, and nothing has been achieved.
Greece is a slacker.
7
I often see this comparison with 1953 (and of course with 1919 and so on). But please remember this. From 1981 on, Greece received about a quarter of a trillion euro net contributions from EU, of which rougly 45% actually came from Germany. Then it got a haircut and a debt restructuring that relieved it of about another quarter of a trillion euro of debt and future interests, the biggest part of which is on Germany. That makes a half of a trillion euro (or about 2 years of GDP) for a country of 11 million people. That completely dwarves any Marshall Plan or whatsoever. Please look back at the situation and the sums involved in 1953 and do then compare again.
3
What Piketty and everyone riding on is band wagon fail to acknowledge is the fact that the London Dept Agreement was a singular event, did not require a second or now even third bailout AND
lead to 50+years of military occupation by foreign troops in Germany. In addition, the "Wirtschaftwunder" generation generation in Germany simply put their heads down and worked - a 66% rise in GDP from 1950-1960 in an utterly destroyed country.
Obviously, the historical contexts differ greatly, but this PR stunt by TP to promote his most recent publication should be seen as just that.
lead to 50+years of military occupation by foreign troops in Germany. In addition, the "Wirtschaftwunder" generation generation in Germany simply put their heads down and worked - a 66% rise in GDP from 1950-1960 in an utterly destroyed country.
Obviously, the historical contexts differ greatly, but this PR stunt by TP to promote his most recent publication should be seen as just that.
Other nations in the Eurozone,for example,Slovakia,Poland,Cypress,Malta,
Finland,Slovenia,Bulgaria,were opposed to an extension of "bailout" provisions to Greece.The NYT(update 7/10/15)International Business,"Greece*s Debt Crisis Explained" breakdown amounts owed by Greece to Eurozone nations.57 bill. euros to Germany,43 bill.euros to France,38 bill.euros to Italy,25 bill euros to Spain,32 bill euros to Others.So,the question is why Germany absorbs hostility when the numbers show that,while Greece owes the German people significant euro sums,Greece also owes to the peoples of the other Eurozone nations such as Malta,Cypress,Latvia,Slovakia significant euro sums.
Finland,Slovenia,Bulgaria,were opposed to an extension of "bailout" provisions to Greece.The NYT(update 7/10/15)International Business,"Greece*s Debt Crisis Explained" breakdown amounts owed by Greece to Eurozone nations.57 bill. euros to Germany,43 bill.euros to France,38 bill.euros to Italy,25 bill euros to Spain,32 bill euros to Others.So,the question is why Germany absorbs hostility when the numbers show that,while Greece owes the German people significant euro sums,Greece also owes to the peoples of the other Eurozone nations such as Malta,Cypress,Latvia,Slovakia significant euro sums.
13
The nations you mention opposed any 'deal' with Greece because their own administrations are presently going along with the horrid austerity! Their own nations are suffering too, but their present leaders do not want a 'left' to appeal to the voters. If the leftist Greek government gets humiliated and loses power, it makes them look wise. Greece is now an example to anyone who wants to try to exit!
1
Why does Germany absorb so much hostility? Because it's easier to put all the blame on a country that has been the culpable in the past (and it was back then) than have a more thorough look at all the other European countries who agree with Germany and understand their motivations.
Germany needs to remember 1919.
Per the article World War 1 Treaties And Repatriation, United State Holocaust Museum
"For the populations of the defeated powers -- Germany, Austria, Hungary, and Bulgaria -- the respective peace treaties appeared an unfair punishment.... Revision of the Versailles Treaty represented one of the platforms that gave radical right wing parties in Germany, including Hitler's Nazi Party, such credibility to mainstream voters in the early 1920s and early 1930's."
http://lstrn.us/1K0ZZVP
Per the article World War 1 Treaties And Repatriation, United State Holocaust Museum
"For the populations of the defeated powers -- Germany, Austria, Hungary, and Bulgaria -- the respective peace treaties appeared an unfair punishment.... Revision of the Versailles Treaty represented one of the platforms that gave radical right wing parties in Germany, including Hitler's Nazi Party, such credibility to mainstream voters in the early 1920s and early 1930's."
http://lstrn.us/1K0ZZVP
5
Well, maybe this boring episode will vanish from the front pages at least until it becomes clear that Greece will not be able to pay back its loans without a haircut (some level of loan forgiveness). What has actually happened here? Banks, mostly European, but including some American loaned Greece money to keep its economy afloat. When the truth came out, the banks went to the EU for a bailout of their risk. The EU gave it to them, making the loans the reponsibility of the ECB and by extension, each member of the Eurozone in proportion to some algorithm. Then, when things got even worse, and a haircut is indicated (and which will eventually happen) the governments were afraid of admitting they bailed out the banks and the taxpayers will have to shoulder the cost.
Germany is particularly evil in these maneuvers because it was mostly their banks, and because they have such short memories. As reported in the NYT a few days ago, Germany got relief on their loans as recently as 1953, including forgiveness. Not to mention the Marshall Plan, which was forgiven; not to mention the fact that they started a war that resulted in the murder of tens of millions; not to mention the art works stolen that they have mostly refused to return; not to mention the war before that. And the one before that. Shame on Germany and the German people.
Flag
Germany is particularly evil in these maneuvers because it was mostly their banks, and because they have such short memories. As reported in the NYT a few days ago, Germany got relief on their loans as recently as 1953, including forgiveness. Not to mention the Marshall Plan, which was forgiven; not to mention the fact that they started a war that resulted in the murder of tens of millions; not to mention the art works stolen that they have mostly refused to return; not to mention the war before that. And the one before that. Shame on Germany and the German people.
Flag
13
Yes, shame on the German tax payer.
Tennyson's "Ulysses" saw it as his duty "to chasten and subdue a savage race and bring them to the light." Sort of like the German perspective in southern Europe.
1
For what reason does the USA spend so much in NATO. Military bases in Germany are still needed? Perhaps Germany should pay more for national defense as Putin looms in southern Europe should Greece be unsuccessful and leaves the eurozone.
I would like to see these eurozone countries have a one person-one vote referendum in continuing a common currency. Sweden and UK have their currencies. The euro gives financial aspects too much control and endangers national sovereignty. UK citizen will also decide whether to remain in EU.
I would like to see these eurozone countries have a one person-one vote referendum in continuing a common currency. Sweden and UK have their currencies. The euro gives financial aspects too much control and endangers national sovereignty. UK citizen will also decide whether to remain in EU.
2
And perhaps Detroit should have gone back to the buckskin to get themselves out of their bankruptcy.
Countries such as Greece and Italy have already experienced the huge inflation and economic instability associated with having their own currencies, and are experiencing right now as has Orange County calif and Stockton Cal, the benefits of a currency supported by other stronger economies (which have made better decisions - has anybody in Orange county been arrested?).
Unlike the U.S. government, the EU does not have an effective popular promoter in most countries, and in the UK, it has none.
The eurozone suffers from a lack of political cohesion which was intentional. It was felt if we build it they will come, i.e. the political factor would follow the economic factor. Getting hit by a global economic implosion was not forseen - except by countries such as Canada and India - which maintained banking regulations.
Greece spent what it did not have and now needs to come up with a new system. This is a very different concept from the destruction of the Euro.
Countries such as Greece and Italy have already experienced the huge inflation and economic instability associated with having their own currencies, and are experiencing right now as has Orange County calif and Stockton Cal, the benefits of a currency supported by other stronger economies (which have made better decisions - has anybody in Orange county been arrested?).
Unlike the U.S. government, the EU does not have an effective popular promoter in most countries, and in the UK, it has none.
The eurozone suffers from a lack of political cohesion which was intentional. It was felt if we build it they will come, i.e. the political factor would follow the economic factor. Getting hit by a global economic implosion was not forseen - except by countries such as Canada and India - which maintained banking regulations.
Greece spent what it did not have and now needs to come up with a new system. This is a very different concept from the destruction of the Euro.
Euro was what Germany needed to take over Europe. It is just using it to the fullest. Its doing it in a slow deliberate manner vs. Blitzkrieg. No wonder German question is back to the fullest extent now that countries realize they are no more than a colony with sovereignty gone.
2
As a German myself I also often ask me myself the German Question and I think the French Italians and aall the other Europeans have it so much easier - as they are not German - and so they don't have to ask themselves the German question?
Or does that make sense?
Or does that make sense?
9
She has resisted the many German voices saying, “To heck with Greece. Enough!".
No. Angela Merkel has consigned Greece to Hell.
Germany has made Greece a slave state without firing a shot.
Of all the things that could have been done, this is the stupidest, cruelest outcome. The only benefit will be Germans feeling morally superior even
as both the Greek and Euro economies pay the price with no end in sight.
No. Angela Merkel has consigned Greece to Hell.
Germany has made Greece a slave state without firing a shot.
Of all the things that could have been done, this is the stupidest, cruelest outcome. The only benefit will be Germans feeling morally superior even
as both the Greek and Euro economies pay the price with no end in sight.
4
I´ve now read enough German bashing, such as by Paul Krugman, who turns out to be the prime advocate of Greek style socialism funded by leprechaun pots of gold. I´ve lived in Germany long enough to witness a country develop into a sound democracy. In addition, I can´t help but suspect a thinking doting on a world view reverting back to the mid-19th-centeury. Beside the Greeks, mainly Americans are participating in this witch hunt – far removed from European reality. If criticism were leveled at economic aspects only, I could consider the arguments. As it is now, all I can see is an unwarranted attack on the German character supposedly evolving from primeval genes, Goldhagen as reference. As for Mr. Cohen: he has been away from Germany too long for an objective assessment.
22
There's nothing complicated. In spite of starting the most horrendous war in the history of mankind, Germany received assistance by way of the Marshall Plan and then six years later forgiveness of debts owed. Now it's time for them to step up to the plate and do the same for another country that is in trouble. End of argument. QED
It would be easier to consider your argument if the Germans weren't currently engaged in Greek-bashing.
Every ant has its grasshopper. This is no reason to burn down the homestead from the central hearth.
Families feud from time-to-time. Children can differ quite radically. Some siblings strike it rich while others are perpetually broke. Papa is all discipline while Momma loves a good time. This all goes with the territory of family-hood.
Also with federations. It's standard operating practice. It helps, though, when a few cool, smart heads pop-up to keep quarrelsome households from imploding.
www.endthemadnessnow.org
Families feud from time-to-time. Children can differ quite radically. Some siblings strike it rich while others are perpetually broke. Papa is all discipline while Momma loves a good time. This all goes with the territory of family-hood.
Also with federations. It's standard operating practice. It helps, though, when a few cool, smart heads pop-up to keep quarrelsome households from imploding.
www.endthemadnessnow.org
2
Greece is a sovereign nation, and they can follow any policy they please. They just can't expect other people to pay for it - people who have no vote in the Greek election. To mention just one example: Greece has ca. 20% public servants, Germany about 14% of its population. Now, if Greece wants to have 20% of its population on the public payroll, fine. To assume that Bulgaria and Romania should fund that decision is absurd, and not just bc those countries are significantly poorer than Greece.
The deal needs to be approved by a couple of national parliaments. Watch out for Finland, Estonia, Lithuania and Slovakia. These will be the critical countries, not Germany. Reducing everything that happens in Europe to German power is ridiculous.
The deal needs to be approved by a couple of national parliaments. Watch out for Finland, Estonia, Lithuania and Slovakia. These will be the critical countries, not Germany. Reducing everything that happens in Europe to German power is ridiculous.
25
With the exception of Finland, these countries are as poor as Greece, Germany is the one with the money, so Germany should step up to the place, especially in light of what they received from America and the world community in 1947 and 1953.
Under Merkel Germany is closer to Russia than most other countries in the European union! Why wouldn't there be resentment?
1
Sweden, Denmark, Switzerland, and the Netherlands, all neighboring countries, all are industrialized like Germany, all have large current account surpluses, like Germany, and all hate the idea of lending more money to Greece, like Germany. Of them, only the Netherlands uses the Euro. Germany does not benefit from Greece being in the Euro, and Greece is not being oppressed by Germany.
16
Germany does benefit by having Greece and other countries like it in the euro. They suppress the euro--the currency that then lets Germany's exports thrive.
Germany also seems to have a huge interest in Greece's paying back its loans, with interest, from German banks!
Germany also seems to have a huge interest in Greece's paying back its loans, with interest, from German banks!
One has to zero base this so called EU, and be frank about all these cultures . To be clear, other nations or cultures, typically dislike Germans, because their culture of order and prudence is foreign. As the Germans continue to concentrate on control and exports, they find it convienent to hide behind the Holocaust ,so they don't accept a leadership roll outside western Europe. One issue is crystal clear. Germans understand and will work with the Russians to divide up influence in Europe. I doubt a shot will be fired.
Merging such diverse cultures as Italy and the Swiss, or Greece and the Germans would be impossible under ideal circumstances. I have lived in Germany and traveled since to Italy, Switzerland, Germany, and France and have experienced the vast cultural differences first hand. These cultural differences are reflected in their social and economic lives. Let's look at traffic laws: Italy and France - in the round-abouts you take your life into your hands. In Switzerland, they have RULES with lanes and stop signs. In my Lucerne hotel in Switzerland there was a notice in the elevator "Wine tasting at 6PM in the dining room, DO NOT BE LATE". In Florence, that would have been absurd. Now, we have Greece having to bow to the German culture that is as rigid as the Swiss. Can we undo centuries of culture with "ORDERS!". Maybe a silly thought but I wonder if the European union whose goal was to bring the various states together was an impossible dream.
5
Switzerland is not involved. Mentioning it is a non-sequitur.
I know. But, it is an excellent example of the cultural differences between north and south and is in my memory banks. I don't know what a non-sequitur is.
NYT readers should obtain a different perspective from the foreign press. The BBC is on the ground in Greece interviewing small business owners who state that if taxes are raised, they will simply burrow deeper into the black economy. They refuse to pay taxes. This says it all.
31
Giving this more thought, I considered this hypothetical: Greece realizes late in the negotiations that it will need to leave the Euro. How would it best do that?
It needed time. Banks already were closed for two weeks. No preparations had been made to shift to a new currency. Greek voters were resolved from the vote to be tough but not yet to go on their own.
This event gains time to stabilize the banks, to prepare for a new currency, and shows all Greeks that they really have no other choice.
Pretending to accept these terms, then "losing" the vote in Parliament or otherwise backing out, gets much that Greece needs to go off on its own.
They said they agreed. It is not yet clear what will really happen.
It needed time. Banks already were closed for two weeks. No preparations had been made to shift to a new currency. Greek voters were resolved from the vote to be tough but not yet to go on their own.
This event gains time to stabilize the banks, to prepare for a new currency, and shows all Greeks that they really have no other choice.
Pretending to accept these terms, then "losing" the vote in Parliament or otherwise backing out, gets much that Greece needs to go off on its own.
They said they agreed. It is not yet clear what will really happen.
20
Mark, it will happen through a door, the way most people leave. You just say "goodbye", tip your hat, open the door and walk through it.
"Nations have no friends, they only have interests"
- Bismarck, the iron chancellor
Sometimes we forget, that every nation has to answer his own citizen first. And sometimes other people forget, that this also applies to germany.
We never asked to be in this position, we were never asked if we wanted the euro.
And don't tell me we benefit from the euro - we were rich before the euro, we had our economic miracle starting in the 60ties, and many countries around us do well with their own currency.
The US have grown weary with power, why can't we ? Why not making a cut and becoming a bigger swiss. I am simply tired of taking the blame, but everybody is looking at us to make the dreadful choices.
Just give us germans a chance to break up with this Europe and to live in peace.
- Bismarck, the iron chancellor
Sometimes we forget, that every nation has to answer his own citizen first. And sometimes other people forget, that this also applies to germany.
We never asked to be in this position, we were never asked if we wanted the euro.
And don't tell me we benefit from the euro - we were rich before the euro, we had our economic miracle starting in the 60ties, and many countries around us do well with their own currency.
The US have grown weary with power, why can't we ? Why not making a cut and becoming a bigger swiss. I am simply tired of taking the blame, but everybody is looking at us to make the dreadful choices.
Just give us germans a chance to break up with this Europe and to live in peace.
45
@Mathias Weitz
Germany does benefit considerably from Euro membership and great nations, particularly ones located in the center of Europe, do not have the luxury of opting out of geopolitics.
Germany does benefit considerably from Euro membership and great nations, particularly ones located in the center of Europe, do not have the luxury of opting out of geopolitics.
32
Germany benefits from the Euro.
Part of that comes from safety it provides in sales to countries whose currency would otherwise sink over the life of any deal, causes trade losses to Germany from currency arbitrage. That would also likely force Germany to quote higher prices and so lose sales.
Part of its benefit comes from being the strongest part of the Euro. Being king has its rewards.
Another part of the benefit comes from there being very weak members of the Euro. They buy from Germany in a currency of more value than they'd have otherwise. More important, their use of the Euro keeps the Euro's value at a competitive advantage against Germany's rivals for international exports. Germany gets to compete with a reliable safe currency that is still not too strong, not rising to undermine price competition for Germany.
This also allows German banks to make large profitable loans. They made money on those hundreds of billions. When it came time to take losses for overdoing it, they socialized the losses onto the taxpayers and kept the profits. Very nice for rich Germans, not so nice for German taxpayers, but that was their choice just as Greece made some bad choices.
This is more complex than usually presented, and Germany gets a lot more out of it than usually admitted.
Part of that comes from safety it provides in sales to countries whose currency would otherwise sink over the life of any deal, causes trade losses to Germany from currency arbitrage. That would also likely force Germany to quote higher prices and so lose sales.
Part of its benefit comes from being the strongest part of the Euro. Being king has its rewards.
Another part of the benefit comes from there being very weak members of the Euro. They buy from Germany in a currency of more value than they'd have otherwise. More important, their use of the Euro keeps the Euro's value at a competitive advantage against Germany's rivals for international exports. Germany gets to compete with a reliable safe currency that is still not too strong, not rising to undermine price competition for Germany.
This also allows German banks to make large profitable loans. They made money on those hundreds of billions. When it came time to take losses for overdoing it, they socialized the losses onto the taxpayers and kept the profits. Very nice for rich Germans, not so nice for German taxpayers, but that was their choice just as Greece made some bad choices.
This is more complex than usually presented, and Germany gets a lot more out of it than usually admitted.
37
Many economists believe Germany benefited from euro. Ben Bernanke said in his recent blog, “…euro is an underappreciated benefit to Germany of its participation in the currency union…” It’s an article worth reading, particularly for people interested in European economics.
http://www.brookings.edu/blogs/ben-bernanke/posts/2015/04/03-germany-tra...
http://www.brookings.edu/blogs/ben-bernanke/posts/2015/04/03-germany-tra...
2
The Europeans gave up their national currencies to have the shared euro. Todays agreement on how to solve this latest European crisis gave us a euro that is a little less like a German reichsmark and a bit more like a Greek drachma. I guess working harder together is the price we need to pay for a united prosperous Europe.
2
The German model is not even good for the Germans themselves. The countries lack of flexibility is a telling example. Irrespective of the aspect of models, Germany shares co-responsibility for the omission of monitoring Greece when meeting the troikas conditions given. A serious shortcoming.
8
The problem with the world leaders today is that they act schizophrenically.
Greek Prime Minister Tsipras wanted a few weeks ago the national referendum on austerity only to completely renege on the results after realizing the EU doesn’t mind Greece leaving the eurozone so he quickly endorsed even worse austerity measures than previously offered and rejected.
It would be great if the other leaders were any better than him.
They talk about the peace, an extended hand and the other friendly gestures only to threaten in the very next sentence with all-out war if their proposals were rejected and emphasizing that all the options are on the table.
A friendly handshake and nuclear obliteration threat do exclude each other, don’t they?
Those insanely incompatible measures are designed to give something to both the left and the right back in their native countries.
I wished we were blessed with the average leaders capable of creating a coherent plan, smartly crafted to provide the path in a single direction.
The agendas that simultaneously provide the trajectories in three different directions are not the plans at all.
Those are just the schizophrenic ramblings of incompetent leaders...
Greek Prime Minister Tsipras wanted a few weeks ago the national referendum on austerity only to completely renege on the results after realizing the EU doesn’t mind Greece leaving the eurozone so he quickly endorsed even worse austerity measures than previously offered and rejected.
It would be great if the other leaders were any better than him.
They talk about the peace, an extended hand and the other friendly gestures only to threaten in the very next sentence with all-out war if their proposals were rejected and emphasizing that all the options are on the table.
A friendly handshake and nuclear obliteration threat do exclude each other, don’t they?
Those insanely incompatible measures are designed to give something to both the left and the right back in their native countries.
I wished we were blessed with the average leaders capable of creating a coherent plan, smartly crafted to provide the path in a single direction.
The agendas that simultaneously provide the trajectories in three different directions are not the plans at all.
Those are just the schizophrenic ramblings of incompetent leaders...
3
I have a question. There is much talk (in this article too) about the discipline and rigidity "intrinsic" to German culture. But, were they ever subject to a fiscal "discipline" like the one they are seeking to impose on Greece? Were they ever subject to an economic regime with these levels of unemployment, pension cuts, loan payments, cut of acquisitive power that undermines the economy? Were they subject to such economic impositions even at their worse after their defeat in WWII, or was eastern Germany submitted to them after the fall of the Berlin wall? What policies were imposed on eastern Germany? How were they "disciplined back" into German "culture" and fiscal rules? What kind of economic policies were Germans subjected to at these two critical moments? Any parallels? (also no military expenses during their recovery since they could not have an army, NATO took care of those expenses that take up a big chunk of the Greek budget). Or is their purported discipline displayed under much more expansive economic conditions? Wasn't there a lot of money flushed into Germany during their "economic miracle" after the war? Can someone compare the cases and probe this "discipline" claim a bit more?
22
Was Germany ever subject to this sort of austerity? Well, yeah. It was called the Weimar Republic that arose in Germany after the Treaty of Versailles was signed in 1919 that provided for the payment of WWI reparations, and yes, there was unemployment, starvation, bread lines...the whole lot, and worse, that Greece is being forced to endure. Of course, the Treaty helped ensure there would be a second European war. This austere bailout of Greece, probably not so much.
1
I think you should consult some history books.
I'm sorry but asking why the East Germans weren't "disciplined back", is just ridiculous. East Germany wasn't at a economic low point because it spend to much money but among other things thanks to the communist "planned economy". East Germans were "subjects" to "economic hardships" the whole time of the existence of the GDR, as were of course also all other eastern European countries. Further, they didn't even have a democracy as opposed to the Greeks. So they had even less responsibility for the government's failure than the Greeks.
1
Currency union without political union was a harebrained idea because without Federation an enforcer was required. Germany is very good at enforcing. They proved that in the last century, and they are in the act of doubling down in this century. Greece became the sour apple, which although they borrowed too much from German and French Bankers who ignored all risk, they still wanted to cling to quaint ideas about democracy. Greece must be punished, lest Portugal, Spain or Italy start to get similar notions about independence and sovereignty. Right now the best thing that Europeans can do is to be more like the Germans! Now where have I heard that before?
12
Since Germany became the most powerful country in Europe at the end of the 19th, nobody has found an answer to the German question. German leaders, starting with Bismarck, have continued to frighten their neighbors. Security arrangements aimed at containing Germany often made the situation worse.
Eventually Germany was bound to re-emerge as Europe's leading political power. However, the Greek debt crises has raised questions about whether Germany is able to be a wise leader.
Eventually Germany was bound to re-emerge as Europe's leading political power. However, the Greek debt crises has raised questions about whether Germany is able to be a wise leader.
24
The German question was answered for centuries. First it was kept broken up into over 100 sovereign cities, principalities, bishoprics, and little kingdons that were at each others' throats. Then when Napoleon conquered it all, he kept it divided into four plus Austria.
That is the solution to the German Problem. Instead, we see the opposite, unifying the whole continent in hopes it overbalances Germany in its middle. It doesn't.
That is the solution to the German Problem. Instead, we see the opposite, unifying the whole continent in hopes it overbalances Germany in its middle. It doesn't.
14
You make several misstatements , Germany is a financial power, not a political power,no one has disproved that the EU is a democracy yet. With 335 million Europeans, there are only 80 million Germans. As to keeping Germany fragmented politically, this was foreign policy of England , France, Holy Roman Empire for over am thousand years. The whole idea of European Union is that as a democratic state ,it would be one man one vote,not a vote with Euros or Marks or Germans or Greeks. We learned that along time ago in the US. Again, the Greeks are asking Europe for a loan, not Germany. The Europeans want to know that governments will be honest about their fiscal abilities to pay their own debts. Every member is a democracy, therefore their government is the people. Germans have tried to not to be so enfatuated with their government, trusting their government by placing them on a short leash. Maybe the Greeks should rely less on the their governments words & more on their actions. The reforms demanded by the EU was more for the Greek people & less for their government. Either way, the Greek people have major challenge before them,in or out of the EU. The rules of membership have not changed since they were admitted to the EU, only their debt has been clarified.
The solution after WW2 should have been to let Germany keep France, and let Russia keep Germany, Finland and Greece (all original Axis powers). America keeps Italy. Then everyone gets what they deserve.
"....a currency union without a political union is problematic".
That could almost be the summation of the entire Euro crisis.
That could almost be the summation of the entire Euro crisis.
43
And the dollar in Red states.
Roger Cohen poses an interesting/relevant question for debate "Yes, the German Question is back. Is German domination compatible with further European integration or will it prove a fracturing force?"
Roger's argument is that Germany is now solely responsible for Europe integration's future. True, as the bloc's economic superpower -- that could become a military power as well -- the country has greater responsibilities in the bloc.
Nonetheless, Germany's eighteen eurozone partners carry an equally heavy burden. After all, all of them accepted democratically the costs and benefits of sharing a common currency with economic powerhouse Germany.
Take the case of Greece. A country infamous for playing by no rules. Greeks were a bunch of happy campers when aid from Brussels helped to build infrastructure and modernize the economy. Agriculture producers could not believe euros were given for keeping their land idle.
Politicians were 'doing good' with limitless amount of borrowed money at undreamed low interest rates. Consumers had access to household goods only seen on TV before. Well, we know how the Greek tragedy has ended.
Bottomline: Strict discipline, rules and regulations are fundamental in a common currency area. Not because they are demanded by hard working-Lutheran Germans. But because without such discipline, the eurozone will be a doomed common currency area.
As the old saying goes: if you cannot stand the heat, get off from the kitchen.
Roger's argument is that Germany is now solely responsible for Europe integration's future. True, as the bloc's economic superpower -- that could become a military power as well -- the country has greater responsibilities in the bloc.
Nonetheless, Germany's eighteen eurozone partners carry an equally heavy burden. After all, all of them accepted democratically the costs and benefits of sharing a common currency with economic powerhouse Germany.
Take the case of Greece. A country infamous for playing by no rules. Greeks were a bunch of happy campers when aid from Brussels helped to build infrastructure and modernize the economy. Agriculture producers could not believe euros were given for keeping their land idle.
Politicians were 'doing good' with limitless amount of borrowed money at undreamed low interest rates. Consumers had access to household goods only seen on TV before. Well, we know how the Greek tragedy has ended.
Bottomline: Strict discipline, rules and regulations are fundamental in a common currency area. Not because they are demanded by hard working-Lutheran Germans. But because without such discipline, the eurozone will be a doomed common currency area.
As the old saying goes: if you cannot stand the heat, get off from the kitchen.
35
Sad to say, the Greek tragedy has NOT ended, it is only getting worse!
So by your comment, Germans are Lutheran? Germany is made up of 30% Evanelicals (Lutherans) , 30% Catholics, 30% secular agnostics/atheists, & 5% Muslim, which ones are not working? Angela Merkel is at 80% approval rating with them all. Let's not make this a German issue or religious one ,too.
When you control the gold, it's easy to squeeze the ones who don't. Forget about the real reason, greed, and blame the victims. More "let 'em eat cake" from Germany this time.
2
It's worth noting, although virtually no one seems to countenance this as important, that the Germans have again assumed a place of prominence in European affairs not because they sought it particularly, but because their economic successes have rendered such a role ineluctable. Moreover, they, including their center-right parties, have pursued a collection of domestic economic and social welfare policies which have been generously communitarian and would, in the US, be called downright socialist. So to tar them as immoderate neo-liberals is inaccurate.
By the way, Roger, its ''Stundenull", not "stunde nul".
By the way, Roger, its ''Stundenull", not "stunde nul".
22
It's "it's," not "its."
The most puzzling gap in news coverage of the Greek crisis is how little is being said about German hypocrisy on debt relief. Thomas Piketty has pointed out that the London Debt Agreement of 1953 forgave 60 percent of Germany's debt, which then amounted to over 200% of German GDP, a good deal worse than the current Greek debt load. As Piketty argues, the Germans would have had no Wirtschaftwunder ("economic miracle") without that debt relief, and now they are condemning Greece to generations of economic misery, relieving profitable private financial institutions of the moral hazard they should rightly bear for their profligate lending.
23
The London debt agreement differs fundamentally from what is happening today in Greece. West-Germany was freed from the burden of huge and arbitrary war reparation payments not self-inflicted debt due to heedless spending. No such relief was granted to East-Germany, the third of the country under the control of the Sovietunion - in contrast, the Eastern part was plundered, both its infrastructure and natural resources were dismantled. Whatever your grief with Germany is, their handling of their economy after WWII, the reunification, and the structural changes (austerity) in the early 2000's is working quite well.
1
200%? That must have included the internal debt of Germany, which was reduced by a currency reform in 1948 - at the detriment of many German citizens, who saw their savings reduced by 90%. The external debt of West Germany in 1953 amounted to approximately 21% of GDP before and approximately 10% after the haircut. So, 11% of GDP were forgiven, much less than the Greek haircut in 2012.
The reality is that the cases are not at all comparable.
The reality is that the cases are not at all comparable.
The answer is simple: Their is no hypocrisy!
As you correctly noted germany received a debt cut of 60% (to a huge extend on WWI reparation payments) that were crippling an otherwise well functioning economy.
The germans are well aware that without this haircut the Wirtschaftswunder wouldn't have been possible.
The situation in greece is different. Greece 2012 received a debt relieve of 55% (120 Billion Euros). Has received over 200 Billion euros (until 2012) from development funds. To summ it up germany has payed greece in the last 20 years as much as 35 Marshall Plans.
The problem is that greece never has had a working economy. The system was built on other peoples money... and other european countries aren't prepared to finace this.
Lithuania, Polen, Estland, Lettland, Finland, Ireland, Slowakia were in support of harsh measurements while greece was supported by France, Italy and Cyprus (the rest were more or less neutral).
As you correctly noted germany received a debt cut of 60% (to a huge extend on WWI reparation payments) that were crippling an otherwise well functioning economy.
The germans are well aware that without this haircut the Wirtschaftswunder wouldn't have been possible.
The situation in greece is different. Greece 2012 received a debt relieve of 55% (120 Billion Euros). Has received over 200 Billion euros (until 2012) from development funds. To summ it up germany has payed greece in the last 20 years as much as 35 Marshall Plans.
The problem is that greece never has had a working economy. The system was built on other peoples money... and other european countries aren't prepared to finace this.
Lithuania, Polen, Estland, Lettland, Finland, Ireland, Slowakia were in support of harsh measurements while greece was supported by France, Italy and Cyprus (the rest were more or less neutral).
"But if Berlin now wants all Europeans to follow [German] methods, the Europe that offered postwar Germany a path to salvation will break apart".
I have no idea what this means. And Cohen offers no argument or evidence to support his claim.
It is far more plausible to say that, if Germany had not stood its ground, the eurozone -- and probably Europe -- would have disintegrated. If the EU had spinelessly caved in to Syriza's blackmail, then there can be no doubt that other countries -- notably Portugal, Spain and Italy, maybe even France -- would have been forced by their populists to demand the same treatment as Greece.
If you think Greece was a catastrophe, try imagining the Greek catastrophe multiplied by 15 or 20! Even Germany's coffers would be insufficient to meet that crisis.
The way I see it Merkel saved Europe.
I think it's "Stunde null."
I have no idea what this means. And Cohen offers no argument or evidence to support his claim.
It is far more plausible to say that, if Germany had not stood its ground, the eurozone -- and probably Europe -- would have disintegrated. If the EU had spinelessly caved in to Syriza's blackmail, then there can be no doubt that other countries -- notably Portugal, Spain and Italy, maybe even France -- would have been forced by their populists to demand the same treatment as Greece.
If you think Greece was a catastrophe, try imagining the Greek catastrophe multiplied by 15 or 20! Even Germany's coffers would be insufficient to meet that crisis.
The way I see it Merkel saved Europe.
I think it's "Stunde null."
43
My hat's off to anyone who can correctly spell " null ".
1
I find it funny when people criticize populism. The opposite of populism is aristocracy. Perhaps we need to go back to monarchies but it is hard to say the aristocratic approach has not been tried. Either the people can govern, or not. If one thinks the common people cannot know their own true interests that is a legitimate position. In order to have this opinion one must be against democracy in all its forms. Perhaps Plato was right
Well done. They saved Europe by imposing an Eurozone unemployment rate of what 11% with much much higher rates in countries which have had to implement austerity. The fact is that if they wanted to help reduce debts Eurowide they could have increased the monetary supply to create inflation which would devalue all debts denominated in Euro's. However Germany would never stand for that.
The Euro currency and the Euro-zone has been a successful history due to Germany's determination. Now some like to accuse Germany of being just that, the same determined country. Apparently other, we hear voices here in America and in the U.K. that don't like such a successful path and disguise it with criticism. How many have announced the doom of the experiment since its inception?
15
Many have criticized the European Union ( Krugman, et al) way before it was obvious that the impetus for the union, to be a counterweight to the USA, is no longer an issue due to the rise of China. Conservatives were correct when they said it would destroy national sovereignty. Economist who said you cannot have monetary union without political union were correct. This is not a new idea.
This is success?
Very well said Roger! "German methods are good for Germans" and only Germans I would add. Germany has demonstrated that they cannot lead Europe other than by mere force. They are dogmatic to the point of denying any responsibility in lending to the Greeks even if they knew documents were falsified. Their economic policy only caters to German interest and is not adequate for other nations - this is why France has grown weaker. It is time for Mediterranean countries to leave the Euro as it is very obvious that German leadership will hurt more than help their economies. Why is it so difficult for the leaders to admit that?
14
France is only weaker because Mitterand, famously indifferent to his country's best interests, allowed the French to retire at 60. Before that, France was more solvent even than Germany. Germany's economic policies would work fine in France.
2
Excellent essay.
A common currency without a common treasury is doomed. Germany should cut Greece's debt, leave the Euro, and go back to its Deutsche mark. The euro without Germany would devalue to levels compatible with the Latin economies.
If instead, Germany continues its economic waterboarding of Greece, we should boycott Audi, BMW, and all other German corporations.
A common currency without a common treasury is doomed. Germany should cut Greece's debt, leave the Euro, and go back to its Deutsche mark. The euro without Germany would devalue to levels compatible with the Latin economies.
If instead, Germany continues its economic waterboarding of Greece, we should boycott Audi, BMW, and all other German corporations.
18
While you're at it you should boycott Finland, Latvia, Lithuania, Poland, Holland, et al. – all of whom have a stronger view of this situation than do the Germans. In typical fashion everyone goes for the deepest pocket – why not get a class action lawsuit in play? Isn't that how it's done in the US?
6
We could talk all day long about the alleged financial confrontation between the Greeks and the Germans. We could even talk about the alleged racism that rages all over America.
But, for the sake of better understanding of the problems, we should move to the simpler cases, the war in Ukraine or the war in Syria and Iraq.
In Ukraine, there is the conflict between the Slavs. Both groups are of the same race and belong to the Greek orthodox religion. In Syria and Iraq, the conflict is between the Arabs. Religiously, the Muslims are on both sides.
Or, we could talk about the old conflict in ex-Yugoslavia where the South Slavs were fighting each other.
What is common in all those conflicts?
It’s stunning that all those sides claim they came under attack. None of them launched an aggression. All of them acted purely defensively.
It’s shocking that there is an absolute absence of any personal responsibility on all sides.
It’s always somebody else’s fault.
It means that the only way to reach the peace in this world is to denounce a status of victim and blame ourselves for any conflict we end up in.
Only this way we can be able to eliminate our own deficiencies and avoid our own mistakes.
Over the last five decades, has anybody accepted any personal responsibility anywhere in the world?
Although the world is full of sinners, we are always personally perfect.
Very ironic, isn’t it?
But, for the sake of better understanding of the problems, we should move to the simpler cases, the war in Ukraine or the war in Syria and Iraq.
In Ukraine, there is the conflict between the Slavs. Both groups are of the same race and belong to the Greek orthodox religion. In Syria and Iraq, the conflict is between the Arabs. Religiously, the Muslims are on both sides.
Or, we could talk about the old conflict in ex-Yugoslavia where the South Slavs were fighting each other.
What is common in all those conflicts?
It’s stunning that all those sides claim they came under attack. None of them launched an aggression. All of them acted purely defensively.
It’s shocking that there is an absolute absence of any personal responsibility on all sides.
It’s always somebody else’s fault.
It means that the only way to reach the peace in this world is to denounce a status of victim and blame ourselves for any conflict we end up in.
Only this way we can be able to eliminate our own deficiencies and avoid our own mistakes.
Over the last five decades, has anybody accepted any personal responsibility anywhere in the world?
Although the world is full of sinners, we are always personally perfect.
Very ironic, isn’t it?
11
Not helpful. "Personal responsibility" as a solution to geopolitical financial problems and power plays? Kindergarten stuff!
Your sense of personal responsibility determines the way you think, the way you act, the way you vote, the government you elect and the world you live in. It is truly as simple as kindergarten stuff
The huge expansion of the EU in the 1990s was always alarming to me. I lived in Europe for many years and was part of the referendum in Sweden on whether to join the EU — I voted yes, feeling that Sweden was very much a part of Europe and needed closer ties — but I, along with many others, wondered what would happen with places like Greece and Portugal. From a northern or central European perspective, those countries are almost the third world.
Greece, especially, is an outlier even in religion – most of Europe has long been straight-up Catholic or Protestant, and the Orthodox faith of Greece makes it a cultural outlier. As many other Europeans say, you can see where the Ottomans were, and those places are culturally different from the rest of Europe.
Currency and foreign policy are two areas where the EU experiment is fatally flawed. Now, we see the fallout of the currency debacle. Greece will probably withdraw from the euro.
The upshot is that the US will never be able to leave Europe manage its own affairs. When the Yugoslavian War broke out around 1990, sure enough, the extreme weakness and fragmentation of the EU became clear in the foreign policy realm. They stood impotent before the disaster, finally requiring America to take the lead. Now the international economy will have to massively adjust in order to mitigate the Greek mess, which was totally predictable.
Greece, especially, is an outlier even in religion – most of Europe has long been straight-up Catholic or Protestant, and the Orthodox faith of Greece makes it a cultural outlier. As many other Europeans say, you can see where the Ottomans were, and those places are culturally different from the rest of Europe.
Currency and foreign policy are two areas where the EU experiment is fatally flawed. Now, we see the fallout of the currency debacle. Greece will probably withdraw from the euro.
The upshot is that the US will never be able to leave Europe manage its own affairs. When the Yugoslavian War broke out around 1990, sure enough, the extreme weakness and fragmentation of the EU became clear in the foreign policy realm. They stood impotent before the disaster, finally requiring America to take the lead. Now the international economy will have to massively adjust in order to mitigate the Greek mess, which was totally predictable.
11
Mr. Cohen. With all due respect, I do not share your views; which for the most part reflect what most Americans are thinking abut Germany these days due to an incredible lack of insight, and the need to find a ready-made boogey-man in this Greek financial debacle -- when the real problem lies with Greece itself, and the fact that it hasn't been able to get its financial house in order for decades. And in the midst of all this, everybody also seems to have forgotten --that is, if they ever knew in the first place --just how much money Germany has already shelled out, just to try to keep that country afloat.
Trust me, if someone you knew borrowed upwards of 85 BILLION Euros from you--You would think twice before digging in your pocket again, without some kind of iron-clad agreement. In end effect, if the Greek government hadn't squandered so much of its funds through greed, mismanagement, and state-funded cronyism to begin with, it wouldn't be in the place where it now finds itself now.
Trust me, if someone you knew borrowed upwards of 85 BILLION Euros from you--You would think twice before digging in your pocket again, without some kind of iron-clad agreement. In end effect, if the Greek government hadn't squandered so much of its funds through greed, mismanagement, and state-funded cronyism to begin with, it wouldn't be in the place where it now finds itself now.
57
Is Germany innocent? How did its banks not know about the problems in Greece, before making loans? And where were the loans spent? In Greece or in Germany?
3
Germany and the rest of Europe owes Greece culturally. If it wasn't for greece, they would be barbarians. As an ancient Roman
"And in the midst of all this, everybody also seems to have forgotten --that is, if they ever knew in the first place --just how much money Germany has already shelled out, just to try to keep that country afloat."
Germany has, indeed, shelled out vast sum of money, but not to support Greece per se. The money was used to rescue German (and French) banks which had made imprudent loans to a country and people they knew were already too indebted to take on any additional debt.
It's called "loan sharking", Mr. Smith.
Germany has, indeed, shelled out vast sum of money, but not to support Greece per se. The money was used to rescue German (and French) banks which had made imprudent loans to a country and people they knew were already too indebted to take on any additional debt.
It's called "loan sharking", Mr. Smith.
1
The European Union is composed of three blocs: The free traders (British isles, Benelux, Scandinavia), the protectionists (France, Italy, Iberia), and the ex-communists searching for a new identity (i. e. following Washington). Germany has one third of each, enabling them to tip the balance in favor of one of them.
4
Let's take the virtuous part of it. Germany owes money, A lot of money --over 50% of its GDP. Yes, not way over 100% as Greece, but much of that increase came from the previous to last bailout.
The key difference between Greece and Germany is not one corruption (which is as rampant in Italy, Portugal, and Spain, and in many an Eastern European country). The simple difference is that 1) Germany's population is larger, 2) Germany's workforce is highly educated, and 3) Germany's productivity is much higher (even the EOCB acknowledges that Greeks work much more hours).
And because of this Germany can borrow much more than Greece, (as does the US) and manage its debt accordingly. This is economics, and not a matter of morality or even race or national origin.
The key difference between Greece and Germany is not one corruption (which is as rampant in Italy, Portugal, and Spain, and in many an Eastern European country). The simple difference is that 1) Germany's population is larger, 2) Germany's workforce is highly educated, and 3) Germany's productivity is much higher (even the EOCB acknowledges that Greeks work much more hours).
And because of this Germany can borrow much more than Greece, (as does the US) and manage its debt accordingly. This is economics, and not a matter of morality or even race or national origin.
15
Dear Mr. Cohen, please feel invited to calm down. No need to render advice from some 5.000 miles away. European challenges will be handled by pros, and Europe will not break apart. You and Mr. Krugman look after Puerto Rico, Florida, etc, and the 500 million E.U. citizens take care of themselves.
P.S.: That was not meant to be rude, and we are grateful that we can count on the U.S. as our friend and ally of last resort in whatever future emergency might eventually happen. Thanks!
P.P.S.: Could you stop spying against us? I have fought along U.S. forces in the Balkans and the Hindukush and feel bad when being treated like Al Qaida.
P.S.: That was not meant to be rude, and we are grateful that we can count on the U.S. as our friend and ally of last resort in whatever future emergency might eventually happen. Thanks!
P.P.S.: Could you stop spying against us? I have fought along U.S. forces in the Balkans and the Hindukush and feel bad when being treated like Al Qaida.
40
Brilliant comment and much appreciated. Let's see if Cohen and his followers support a US bailout and/or debt cancellation for Puerto Rico.
8
Civilitas, your country never spies? And pigs fly?
I agree that Europe should take care of itself, just as the USA should. Both are making a rotten job of it. And what do you think, could you persuade Chancellor Merkel to jolt Europe into serving as our ally of last resort? That would be nice.
www.endthemadnessnow.org
I agree that Europe should take care of itself, just as the USA should. Both are making a rotten job of it. And what do you think, could you persuade Chancellor Merkel to jolt Europe into serving as our ally of last resort? That would be nice.
www.endthemadnessnow.org
3
Who are the Euro pros? The same people who have imposed these failed austerity measures so the bankers could be assured of getting their bad loans back? Are they the descendants of European leaders who brought the western world 1000 years of endless tribal warfare that ended in 100 million dead finally?
I'm tired of the financial morality play coming out of Schauble and Berlin. You might want to investigate your assumptions about the pros handling the situation in Europe to see if they really know what they're doing. You sound very confident, but you could very well be wrong.
I'm tired of the financial morality play coming out of Schauble and Berlin. You might want to investigate your assumptions about the pros handling the situation in Europe to see if they really know what they're doing. You sound very confident, but you could very well be wrong.
Germany is presenting itself as if only its taxpayers are absorbing the burden of Greek loans. But in reality Germany has tactfully shifted these loans from its private greedy Banks to European Central Bank and IMF- all European tax payers and via IMF internationally including USA. European Central Bank and IMF gave loans to Greece to pay back the German Bank loans. Germany is not only playing rough, but dirty also. Watch out Europe.
15
If you missed "60 MINUTES" last night the money owed by Greece seems to have found its way into HSBC and other large banks and remains there, untracked, untaxed, and blissfully paying interest. Amazingly, the banks would never think to look in THEIR vaults for payment and are, instead, doing the Detroit Shuffle on the Greek People (who work more hours than Germans, thank you)!
This is a 1% takeover.
This is a 1% takeover.
23
Absolutely no reason for Germany to be obligated to bear the burden of Greek excesses.
If Germany wants to bear that burden because it thinks it can get something valuable in return, then that's their choice.
If Germany wants to bear that burden because it thinks it can get something valuable in return, then that's their choice.
9
The German apologists seem to forget that after destroying much of Europe in World War II, Germany had huge debts that were effectively forgiven to the tune of 50%. (This was after they defaulted on their post World War I debts.) The massive damaged to Europe caused by Germans in WWII was paid at least in small part by the United State Germany paid only a pittance for the damage they did to Greece during the war, and not much more to other countries. Germany pays very little for defense, thanks to being subsidized by the US. The rebuilding of Germany was possible because they had a fresh start because its debtors were generous and supportive. The rest of Europe and the US were also forgiving with respect to the atrocities Germany committed. Now the Germans "might" talk about some debt relief for a Greece if it submits to more GDP destroying austerity. It's not enough that the austerity already imposed has reduced the Greek GDP by 25%. The self-righteous Germans want more.
14
Mr. Cohen, just for the record, the ''French intellectual who had observed in Cold War days that he liked Germany so much he was glad there were two of them'' you refer to was François Mauriac (1885-1970), laureate of the Nobel Prize in Literature in 1952.
1
Dear Mr. Cohen,
The Greek debt-Euro-EU crisis, while being a “German” question, is, at its metaphysical basis, a Kantian problem.
Kant’s categorical imperatives states: “Act only according to that maxim whereby you can, at the same time, will that it should become a universal law.” The founding principle of the Euro is in complete compliance of the imperative. So is not lending money to those who cannot repay: it is immoral to do so.
As to the post-WWII act “The United States had helped fashion the German Federal Republic and underwritten its security,” it is more Confucian than Kantian: any act is morally allowed as long as you “Do not do to others what you do not want others do to you.”
The Greek debt-Euro-EU crisis, while being a “German” question, is, at its metaphysical basis, a Kantian problem.
Kant’s categorical imperatives states: “Act only according to that maxim whereby you can, at the same time, will that it should become a universal law.” The founding principle of the Euro is in complete compliance of the imperative. So is not lending money to those who cannot repay: it is immoral to do so.
As to the post-WWII act “The United States had helped fashion the German Federal Republic and underwritten its security,” it is more Confucian than Kantian: any act is morally allowed as long as you “Do not do to others what you do not want others do to you.”
5
It All follows the same pattern, WW2 even the "Alliances" a half committed France aka Vichy and a full, to a point committed Italy and Spain. History doesn't repeat itself on the same level, but it surely follows the laid down patterns. The Greeks go partisan, the French half commit to German dominance and Italy and Spain are committed to a point.
WW2 on an economic scale, which is not surprising, given the tribal nature of this continent.
Germany will self-destruct like it has before, nothing to worry about, except Millions of Lives being affected by an ill conceived Austerity policy, which will help only the Germans short term, but destroy it long term.
Waehrungs Reform 21st century, this time around there will be no Marshall plan but only self-made devastation.
WW2 on an economic scale, which is not surprising, given the tribal nature of this continent.
Germany will self-destruct like it has before, nothing to worry about, except Millions of Lives being affected by an ill conceived Austerity policy, which will help only the Germans short term, but destroy it long term.
Waehrungs Reform 21st century, this time around there will be no Marshall plan but only self-made devastation.
5
"It wed countries of far laxer and more flexible Mediterranean culture to German diktats of discipline, predictability and austerity." This is typical NY Times speak-code that mysteriously holds humans that are not of Northern-West European ancestry to far lower standards of conduct, morality & logic/reason than assorted paler Anglos, Saxons etc.Perhaps this NY Times editor recognized lesser race/culture connected capacity is why the often lily-white descendants of Cortez who oppress 1 billion in Latin America with continuing apartheid against the 90% indigenous-mixed raced majority are not appropriately vilified in the Times.Criticized enough to stop the mass illegal immigration "push" of murder, rape, endemic corruption & slavery south of border that is killing the wages of poor Americans. While strangely we have to suffer through another Holocaust wailing article every day of the year, decade after decade, although the 2nd 6 million Jews that the Russians and East Europeans killed in assorted gulags are conveniently 'forgotten'. Why is this? Here's one reason. If light whites & light brown 1%ers from Southern Europe were appropriately criticized for contemporary racism, "cultures" of murder & corruption and the assorted genocides in their nations (whites in Latin America routinely rape indigenous women "to improve the race") then this would undermine the legitimacy of mass migration here -threaten the supply of immigrant low wage slaves to the advertisers of the NY Times.
6
Mr. Cohen has been all over the NYTimes' opinion map regarding the Greek debt crisis - as his latest "redux" admits. Further historical insight will clearly show that there indeed are/were EC govt leaders more concerned with their own country's corporate bankers - than with the well-being of most European Greek citizens.
5
What is really obvious - not just in Mr. Cohn's typically rabid anti-German rants he never tires of - is that the Greek "tragedy" is not really judged with any form of reason or neutrality, let alone any interesting suggestions. It's purely based on personal and emotional feelings. And boy, are there a lot of them. And they show glaringly - and for me as a postwar German it's scandalous - the STILL existing hatred (and envy) for Germany. Just about anything, if it's coming out of that country, even last year's Soccer World Cup (which the Germans won) is a foil for prejudice, hatred, mistrust, criticism and embarrassing attempts at poking fun. Especially, in this newspaper by the way. Of course, only to be outdone by the British press who wouldn't leave out any chance to bring in the Nazis, their all-time favorite they would never let go of. Could we just agree that most of Americans have actually no clue how it IS to either live in Germany or Greece. These countries are democracies, Greece made choices, bad choices and wants to be bailed out by rich "Mutti" Angela like a spoiled petulant rich child that lost at the gambling table, instead of going to college. This completely fake empathy, this nauseating pc obsession in parts of Europe and in the US is getting worse every day and prevents what is needed: Intelligence, empathy and fairness. Instead, the result is: Confusion, anger, more prejudice and racism.
17
The soft underbelly of the euro is that there were no teeth to budgetary requirements and during the bubbly 90s/00s, no one paid any attention to the rotting foundation.
Prof. Krugman believes that austerity under current conditions will deflate the economy and that structural changes should occur during boom times.
However, it appears to me that structural changes only occur during crisis (i.e., the Obama administration's "Never let a crisis go to waste" in enacting structural reform in healthcare).
I'd like to ask Prof. Krugman and Mr. Cohen the same question: when is the right time to make sure that the foundation is robust and secure?
Prof. Krugman believes that austerity under current conditions will deflate the economy and that structural changes should occur during boom times.
However, it appears to me that structural changes only occur during crisis (i.e., the Obama administration's "Never let a crisis go to waste" in enacting structural reform in healthcare).
I'd like to ask Prof. Krugman and Mr. Cohen the same question: when is the right time to make sure that the foundation is robust and secure?
4
Never, of course, because only they are the ones that can declare a time of economic boom, and that they will never do.
When a country is not in the middle of a great recession? Unemployment is at 25% and the GDP has dropped 25% over the period since the Eurozone has been "helping" Greece. Remember that neither Prof. Krugman or Mr. Cohen are advocating more hand outs to Greece and in fact Prof. Krugman was warning of the problems of the Euro since its inception. Both think that the correct option is for Greek to leave the Eurozone and default on its debts as plenty of other countries have done in similar situations.
Cohen's comments are bizarrely lacking in the most basic knowledge of Europe.
The EU is more than two dozen countries, many of which are much more hard-line than Germany on debt repayment. Finland was disappointed not to see a Greek exit. Slovakia, Estonia, Latvia, and Lithuania wonder why they must subsidize a country wealthier than they are, with pensions more generous and beginning at earlier ages. The Dutch see things no differently than the Germans.
This is not a story of a big country oppressing a small one, this is many countries, most of them small, out a shockingly large amount of money to another small country that curses them for having lent money to it, and then demands that they lend yet more.
The EU is more than two dozen countries, many of which are much more hard-line than Germany on debt repayment. Finland was disappointed not to see a Greek exit. Slovakia, Estonia, Latvia, and Lithuania wonder why they must subsidize a country wealthier than they are, with pensions more generous and beginning at earlier ages. The Dutch see things no differently than the Germans.
This is not a story of a big country oppressing a small one, this is many countries, most of them small, out a shockingly large amount of money to another small country that curses them for having lent money to it, and then demands that they lend yet more.
19
Yes, but where is all that money going?
--Ram
--Ram
1
If I may add to "This is not a story of a big country oppressing a small one" - it is story of soviet style 'kolchoz" (collective farm), as far as Euro (currency) is concern. You would think that country like Greece, with 2000 plus years of civilization history, would know what they are getting into accepting Euro. Or maybe they did and was hoping to come along for the subsidized ride?
It's notable that Germany has completely set its' face against meaningful debt relief for Greece, forgetting that after WW2 the German nation was forgiven its' own massive debts. This for a country responsible for some of the worst atrocities in history.
9
Do you know how many factories could have been built in a poor country like Greece with the loans worth 300 billion euros?
Do you know how many jobs could have been created and how many Greeks could have been employed with the good salaries and wages?
Do you know how many team members it takes to loot and waste 300 billion euros?
How many thousands of people have the Greeks arrested for ruining their country?
If the Greeks don’t love their country and don’t fight hard to save it, why should we care?
The thousands and thousands of members of the Greek elite should have been arrested and their illicitly gained property and money confiscated.
The question is not what Chancellor Merkel did but who stole the money in Greece.
By the way, have you noticed how hard that lady fought to protect her countrymen?
If the Greek leaders did the same with the equal skills long ago, Greece would not have been in such a dire situation right now.
You prevent the big problems three decade down the road by fighting for and defending the right principles here and now!
Do you know how many jobs could have been created and how many Greeks could have been employed with the good salaries and wages?
Do you know how many team members it takes to loot and waste 300 billion euros?
How many thousands of people have the Greeks arrested for ruining their country?
If the Greeks don’t love their country and don’t fight hard to save it, why should we care?
The thousands and thousands of members of the Greek elite should have been arrested and their illicitly gained property and money confiscated.
The question is not what Chancellor Merkel did but who stole the money in Greece.
By the way, have you noticed how hard that lady fought to protect her countrymen?
If the Greek leaders did the same with the equal skills long ago, Greece would not have been in such a dire situation right now.
You prevent the big problems three decade down the road by fighting for and defending the right principles here and now!
19
Congratulations to Mr. Cohen on this wonderfully thoughtful article!
The tendency of the present-day Germany to play the role of the "Federal Republican Forth Reich" is driven by its need of economic and commercial, if not physical, Lebensraum. Dr. Merkel, as an occupant of von Bismarck's chair, has not so far displayed any plans of territorial expansion, but -- if the reports of the press are to be believed -- she was instrumental in bringing to heel the cryptocommunist and financially irresponsible Greek government.
The tendency of the present-day Germany to play the role of the "Federal Republican Forth Reich" is driven by its need of economic and commercial, if not physical, Lebensraum. Dr. Merkel, as an occupant of von Bismarck's chair, has not so far displayed any plans of territorial expansion, but -- if the reports of the press are to be believed -- she was instrumental in bringing to heel the cryptocommunist and financially irresponsible Greek government.
4
Maybe Greece should become re-industrialized and make widgets, then Greek businesses could make and then sell enough widgets to others outside of Greece so that Greece can accumulate enough privately held profit and taxable wealth to enable the Greeks to buy the other things that Greece needs from other nations that produce those other things (food, shelter, clothing, etc.) that the Greek people consume, repay their Greek Government debts, and then pay for other Greek government activities.
Then hopefully Greece will then have created enough taxable wealth to have some available for government confiscation to pay for Greek current government activities and future Greek government emergencies without the Greek government borrowing any more money.
Or Greece could continue to live on credit cards except that the lenders of real wealth have stopped increasing the Greek credit card charge limit.
Greek citizens working for their Greek government on Greek Government payrolls only consume Greek Government economic capability; no matter how hard the government employees work or how many hours they work per year.
Greek Government contracts awarded to their Greek Citizens also only consume Greek Government economic capabilities.
Every Greek citizen probably wants more and more Free Government Money, just like the US citizens!
Then hopefully Greece will then have created enough taxable wealth to have some available for government confiscation to pay for Greek current government activities and future Greek government emergencies without the Greek government borrowing any more money.
Or Greece could continue to live on credit cards except that the lenders of real wealth have stopped increasing the Greek credit card charge limit.
Greek citizens working for their Greek government on Greek Government payrolls only consume Greek Government economic capability; no matter how hard the government employees work or how many hours they work per year.
Greek Government contracts awarded to their Greek Citizens also only consume Greek Government economic capabilities.
Every Greek citizen probably wants more and more Free Government Money, just like the US citizens!
2
Cohen is quite right that the "German question" is again on the table, and that the EU is an inadequate constraint on German power. But the problem is broader and more intractable than the Euro.
The Euro has been problematic, as economists have long predicted, because it divides fiscal from monetary decisions. The problem is not merely that Greece (as well as France, Italy, Spain and others) have indulged in more generous and extensive social benefits than Germany prefers, but that in order to pay for them they must raise taxes on economies already struggling with a great recession.
The German engine has powered out of the recession, leaving much of the rest of Europe behind, and Germans have no sympathy for neighbors who have fallen on hard times.
The EU will not survive unless all of its parts surrender more sovereignty. Having given up control of monetary policy, they must also surrender a measure of control over fiscal policy. But who will drive the engine on this train? Today the decisions are made in Berlin with a German sensibility. But if Europe is to be more than a German empire, with a powerful center and weak satellites, the Germans must begin to acknowledge their responsibility to the rest of Europe.
The Euro has been problematic, as economists have long predicted, because it divides fiscal from monetary decisions. The problem is not merely that Greece (as well as France, Italy, Spain and others) have indulged in more generous and extensive social benefits than Germany prefers, but that in order to pay for them they must raise taxes on economies already struggling with a great recession.
The German engine has powered out of the recession, leaving much of the rest of Europe behind, and Germans have no sympathy for neighbors who have fallen on hard times.
The EU will not survive unless all of its parts surrender more sovereignty. Having given up control of monetary policy, they must also surrender a measure of control over fiscal policy. But who will drive the engine on this train? Today the decisions are made in Berlin with a German sensibility. But if Europe is to be more than a German empire, with a powerful center and weak satellites, the Germans must begin to acknowledge their responsibility to the rest of Europe.
4
The German word for zero is Null, not Nul. Likewise, there are some corners missing to Mr. Cohen's argument. Germany is not alone in insisting Greece help itself before asking others for help. I was born in Latvia, which regained independence in 1991 after almost a half century of Soviet occupation. Latvia, a member of the Euro zone, has had to struggle from its own zero hour, overcoming a major recession in 2008. It overcame this setback by practising the same kind of austerity the Greeks find so difficult: cutting salaries of teachers and government workers, slashing health care. Its economy is now growing again and the cuts are being reversed, but its per capita GDP is only $14,000. Greece's is $22,500. Can Mr. Tsipras explain why a poorer country should subsidize a richer one addicted to a lifestyle it cannot support?
33
Can you explain why a country you do not wish to support and despise should send its young men to Latvia to die when Putin sends tanks across your border?
1
Oh please... How about choice and responsibility?
You don't like the conditions of your loan? Don't borrow the money! You find the deal is not fair and your trading partner gets too much? Don't make the deal!
In fact, that's what the referendum was about. Say no and do it your way. Now there is fear of your own courage?
So, Greeks, show us what you have got. Show us there is an alternative to the current financial system. Show us you can create a more fair and compassionate society. I can't wait. The world will follow your example.
I understand the anger and resentment born out of true hardship and an inability to reform. Direct it at the political elites you voted for and who repeatedly failed their own people.
But stop blaming others.
You don't like the conditions of your loan? Don't borrow the money! You find the deal is not fair and your trading partner gets too much? Don't make the deal!
In fact, that's what the referendum was about. Say no and do it your way. Now there is fear of your own courage?
So, Greeks, show us what you have got. Show us there is an alternative to the current financial system. Show us you can create a more fair and compassionate society. I can't wait. The world will follow your example.
I understand the anger and resentment born out of true hardship and an inability to reform. Direct it at the political elites you voted for and who repeatedly failed their own people.
But stop blaming others.
23
So according to you banks should not have to do due diligence and lend blindly to any one knowingly falsifying documents? In the US this is a professional negligence, usually not covered by Liability insurance. Banks are supposed to exert caution. You know this because your bank won't let you $10 millions. SO why disingenuously absolve German banks from that very reasonable requirement?
1
Look, mostly Germany is getting bad press because it is holding Greece to account in an uncompromising way in order to protect European taxpayers, and Greece happens to have a radical left wing government. Believe me,if Greeks had instead elected a far right party like golden dawn, then Germanys stand against Greece would have been hailed by the nytimes as a beacon of liberal hope. Let's not pretend there is no political aspect to this.
21
I don't worry about "The German Question" or German power until they start marching around in matching uniforms. THEN I get worried.
But that sort of thing is more likely to happen in the US these days.
But that sort of thing is more likely to happen in the US these days.
19
Well-written column, wrong perspective.
Nowhere does Mr. Cohen speak to the havoc wreaked by the IMF and the World Bank in this matter. These two utterly irresponsible entities know no allegiance other than amassing wealth from debtor nations.
It's not simply "Germany vs. Greece". That's a red herring. It is the World Bank and IMF having a stranglehold on economies across Southern Europe -- Portugal, Spain, Italy, and Greece -- that drives the inequities Mr.Cohen addresses.
The Euro is the straw man argument here.
Nowhere does Mr. Cohen speak to the havoc wreaked by the IMF and the World Bank in this matter. These two utterly irresponsible entities know no allegiance other than amassing wealth from debtor nations.
It's not simply "Germany vs. Greece". That's a red herring. It is the World Bank and IMF having a stranglehold on economies across Southern Europe -- Portugal, Spain, Italy, and Greece -- that drives the inequities Mr.Cohen addresses.
The Euro is the straw man argument here.
9
They have the stranglehold ONLY because the Greeks and the Spaniards wanted to spend the money before they earned it.
Not the smartest move for a country without its own currency and the unilateral power to devalue it at will.
When one gambles and loses, even a state gambling and losing, expect the winner to want to get paid even though it strips the assets of the loser in his effort to do so.
And if you stiff the winner, don't expect him to take that many more IOUs for a while, beg as you might.
Not the smartest move for a country without its own currency and the unilateral power to devalue it at will.
When one gambles and loses, even a state gambling and losing, expect the winner to want to get paid even though it strips the assets of the loser in his effort to do so.
And if you stiff the winner, don't expect him to take that many more IOUs for a while, beg as you might.
The troika has twice in the past 5 years previously negotiated and forgave Greek Debts in exchange for the Greek government promises to stop paying so much money to support so many of the Greek Citizens from the Greek Treasury.
The Greeks did not honor very many of their previous commitments, so why should potential Greek Bond buyers believe that the Greek government would honor any future commitments?
The Greeks elected the politicians that promised to give the Greek citizens the most money from the Greek Treasury!
Now that the Greek Government has given away all of the money in the Greek Treasury away, there is now not any more money in the Greek Treasury for the Greek Government to hand out to those Greek citizens that are supported by the Greek government!
The European nations will not take any more money from their taxpayers and loan (give away) any more of that money to the Greeks, unless the Greeks become less lazy and more industrious.
The Greeks should re-industrialize and that will create more taxable wealth in the Greek Nation.
Taxable wealth located in Greece is needed to be available for the Greek Government to confiscate to pay for Greek Government activities and paychecks to hand out to those Greeks depending upon taxes to pay for their income!
If the Greek government had not been spending more than it collected in taxes for the past decades, then Greece would not need to borrow any money!
The Greeks did not honor very many of their previous commitments, so why should potential Greek Bond buyers believe that the Greek government would honor any future commitments?
The Greeks elected the politicians that promised to give the Greek citizens the most money from the Greek Treasury!
Now that the Greek Government has given away all of the money in the Greek Treasury away, there is now not any more money in the Greek Treasury for the Greek Government to hand out to those Greek citizens that are supported by the Greek government!
The European nations will not take any more money from their taxpayers and loan (give away) any more of that money to the Greeks, unless the Greeks become less lazy and more industrious.
The Greeks should re-industrialize and that will create more taxable wealth in the Greek Nation.
Taxable wealth located in Greece is needed to be available for the Greek Government to confiscate to pay for Greek Government activities and paychecks to hand out to those Greeks depending upon taxes to pay for their income!
If the Greek government had not been spending more than it collected in taxes for the past decades, then Greece would not need to borrow any money!
8
"The troika has twice in the past 5 years previously negotiated and forgave Greek Debts..."
This is not true. There's a difference between forgiving debt and giving some one money to service their debt - thus putting them in hock to you too.
This is not true. There's a difference between forgiving debt and giving some one money to service their debt - thus putting them in hock to you too.
29
That is correct, forgiving debt and giving money to service debt are not the same.
But, you should check your facts first -- the Troika has actually done *both* for Greece!
The lenders were first forced to take a massive haircut, and then the Greeks were given funds -- at incredibly low interest rates and long repayment times -- to pay back the rest.
But, you should check your facts first -- the Troika has actually done *both* for Greece!
The lenders were first forced to take a massive haircut, and then the Greeks were given funds -- at incredibly low interest rates and long repayment times -- to pay back the rest.
the German remedy for Greece has not been one. Austerity has increased Greek debt, not decreased it. Anyone who looks at the numbers and can add and subtract can see that. Therefore, what is this latest bit of misery that is being thrust upon the Greek people but punishment for their sins according to some German code. When even the IMF has said that finding a way to foster economic growth is the answer - that the only way for Greece to come out of this economic crisis is for their creditors to restructure Greek debt - it is time to listen to other ideas besides that of Germans and their bankers.
Germany once again refuses to listen to reason, to see what is obvious, to step into the other person's (in this case country's) shoes. It is a bad idea to insist upon economic policies that leave the majority of a country's youth unemployed and a people generally living in an economy without any hope of growth. That is how Germany is using its economic power - just as it used its military power in the past - creating chaos in the countries of Europe whose people it considers morally inferior to Germans. As in the past, it is best to remember that every type of tyranny pushes people until they reach their limit.
Germany once again refuses to listen to reason, to see what is obvious, to step into the other person's (in this case country's) shoes. It is a bad idea to insist upon economic policies that leave the majority of a country's youth unemployed and a people generally living in an economy without any hope of growth. That is how Germany is using its economic power - just as it used its military power in the past - creating chaos in the countries of Europe whose people it considers morally inferior to Germans. As in the past, it is best to remember that every type of tyranny pushes people until they reach their limit.
5
Germany is back in power and nobody knows how to handle that power - including Germans themselves. Russia is resurgent, as bellicose and menacing as ever. The Balkan region (Greece is part of the Balkan) is in trouble again.
I guess, history is getting ready to repeat itself.
I guess, history is getting ready to repeat itself.
Ironic, the terminology describing Germany today; "the German question," especially when coupled with the current context of "German predatory bankers" being blamed for taking advantage of the weak and vulnerable. There was a time in my (and Mr. Cohen's) family history when similar terms and ideas like these were used by the Germans themselves in a different context.
4
The first element of "the German model" is having a stable currency that retains value. From there it branches out to hard work and not wasting money on buying junk stuff that you don't really want. And then it moves on to building quality products, and innovative products too. It is NOT about "jump starting the economy" with borrowed money, that you later avoid paying back by inflating the currency so investors and savers get the lousy deal. And yes, this is the model that everyone needs to learn. It's the only real long-term answer. For everyone. The other solutions all entail an unjust society, where hard work, saving, and innovation are not rewarded.
4
Ah yes a model that everybody can learn! Lets all be exporter economies! Wait something isn't right with that what could it be?
When so broadly stated, the German Question is back, but in no way is the situation like 1848, 1914, 1939, 1989 or at any point in between. The EU is a long running and huge experiment of a continental scale trying to peaceably bind many peoples and states, not just Germans but everyone else too. The American version of this experiment had more fortunate history and geography and still had an especially rough time after the founding generation had passed (especially in the 1860's). As America had its problems dealing with a southern culture of pride, resistance to change and oppression, so Europe has its southern tier of pride, resistance to change and corruption. The Greeks need to live up to their end of the EU bargain and it will take power to insist they do. Better Merkel's bankers together with those of Paris, the ECB and the IMF than troops. We should all hope for the success of these economic enforcers, as failure would weaken the EU (perhaps fatally) and real force is unthinkable. Both of these alternatives would leave us a real German problem not just the shadow of one.
6
Be careful what you're calling for. This was no war or invasion, but a dispute debated in a conference room. Even if you disagree with the arrangement or think that Greeks will suffer as a consequence, there is still no German invasion of Europe, as you are obviously implying. Would you also speak of a new Confederacy, if Republican (or Southern) States e.g. oppose Obamacare in Congress? Or claim that they want to re-introduce slavery?
I get that today's media is caught in a - self-created - parallel universe, driven by clicks and in desperate need for temporary attention, but the tone of articles like these are worrying. Will you future cartoons with Swastikas next?
I get that today's media is caught in a - self-created - parallel universe, driven by clicks and in desperate need for temporary attention, but the tone of articles like these are worrying. Will you future cartoons with Swastikas next?
11
This was a coup.
The article is misleading. It insinuates that Germany does not want to help the Greeks and is deliberately harsh trying to exploit them. Nothing is further from the truth. Germany has bent over backwards for more than 5 years pumping obscene amounts of money into Greece trying to help it get its economy on track to profitability. Yet the Greeks have been persistently evasive and have not implemented the reforms required to bring the country out of the antique into the 21st century.
All Germany is doing now is telling the Greeks to do just that before they get any new money. Of course, France can finance Greece on its own, nothing stopping them from doing it. Won't go over so well with the French, though.
Also, Greece could just opt out of the Euro now and default on its debt. No more worries, right!? The reason why Greece doesn't want to do that is that they know very well that nobody, including the US, Russia or China, would loan them a cent after defaulting. They would be in a far worse position then, while Germany would be off the hook.
Cunning ploy by the Greeks. Whatever happens, Germany will be the bad guy, for not wanting to unconditionally pour more money into the pit. The reason the US is not shouting louder is that Obama knows quite well that all Angela Merkel would have to do is say "OK, your turn to open the money spigot now. Give us a break for a few years." I wonder what the American taxpayers would say to that.
All Germany is doing now is telling the Greeks to do just that before they get any new money. Of course, France can finance Greece on its own, nothing stopping them from doing it. Won't go over so well with the French, though.
Also, Greece could just opt out of the Euro now and default on its debt. No more worries, right!? The reason why Greece doesn't want to do that is that they know very well that nobody, including the US, Russia or China, would loan them a cent after defaulting. They would be in a far worse position then, while Germany would be off the hook.
Cunning ploy by the Greeks. Whatever happens, Germany will be the bad guy, for not wanting to unconditionally pour more money into the pit. The reason the US is not shouting louder is that Obama knows quite well that all Angela Merkel would have to do is say "OK, your turn to open the money spigot now. Give us a break for a few years." I wonder what the American taxpayers would say to that.
21
Only after making sure that the bad loans made by German banks were bailed out by EU taxpayers as a group. Those banks and bankers have faced almost zero penalties and little opprobrium for their foolish and reckless lending, much less were they well regulated by the putatively "disciplined" and "disciplinary" German government.
This article is clearly trying to stir up a hornet's nest, border-lining on racism. Framing the problem as 'The German Question' is in very poor taste given similar phrases used in WWII.
10
In the German crisis narrative, Greece borrowed too much money, spent it all, and came begging with insults. This narrative ignores one critical fact: Every irresponsible borrower is enabled by an irresponsible lender.
9
The specter of a Germany led by a right-wing party, aligned with the Tea Party or a party led by the American extreme right is something that few would wish on the world...
4
Hahahahahahaha...are you talking about Angela Merkel's party? Oh my, we would run her out of the country for being outright communist. I don't think you have any idea about the German welfare state. For one, high quality college education is free. I wish we had this kind of a right wing party...
The "German Question" doesn't date to 1945; it dates to the time of Bismarck and the unification of Germany, or at least to the Franco-Prussian War of 1870. Germany has always believed that, because of its cultural and moral superiority, it has a duty to dominate all of Europe. It tried and failed militarily several times; now its doing the same old thing with economic pressure.
5
Excellent article! I was wondering when someone was going to mention how happily the West Germans drew those lazy communist East Germans back into the fold. I am old enough to remember the Economist's dire warnings of how hard it would be and how long it would take and even what different cultures the two Germanies had. The Germans actually can do anything if they set their minds to it, instead of dead against it. Time for them to quit humiliating Greece, let Greece leave the Euro, make the creditors pay for transferring the debt burden back to German taxpayers by imposing some clawback finance taxes, and start buying some cheap Greek exports denominated in drachma. They could do it if they loved Europe they way they loved those shiftless communists of similar language....
4
You are kidding, right? Shiftless communists of a similar language? I suggests some history books. The reunification worked so well precisely these reunited people wanted it to work...Eastern Germans submitted to severe devaluations of their savings and fundamental restructuring of their economy. Many were unemployed and has to search for work elsewhere - and indeed did so. In other words, Eastern Germans were weened of communism with austerity and willingly so. Today, differences in wealth persist, but most people do fine. Now let's talk about the reforms the Greeks have been willing to reinforce...
Little attention is being directed at the role Goldman Sachs played in putting Greece in this predicament. The Germans benefitted from one of the sweetest deals in history back in 1953, but persist in taking a holier-than-thou hard economic line on Greece, content to keep the country on its knees for decades to come all for the benefit of the bankers. It's time to stop.
8
It's time to put the bankers in jail, as they've done in Iceland!
Southern Europe needs to leave the Eurozone until a truly united Europe that benefits the citizens, not just the bankers and corporations can be created...or not.
It is absolutely time to stop now!
Southern Europe needs to leave the Eurozone until a truly united Europe that benefits the citizens, not just the bankers and corporations can be created...or not.
It is absolutely time to stop now!
Germany has become inadvertently the reluctant leader. They did not want history to repeat itself but now finds itself in the leadership position, this time with deep pockets instead of hate and war. Germans have made their booming economy with hard-work, discipline exercising unbelievable restraint to repeat history. But the depth of their pockets and restraint are finite. If Germany and UK are more alike to-day with booming economies, let's not forget that Britain still has it's own currency. The Europeans are not homogenous. The peoples of these countries are as insoluble as oil and water. Balkanization was right, The Eurozone was wrong and the Greek crisis is the epitome of this Big Mistake. Also, we should'nt be miffed that we were not in Minsk. We helped Europe in the past. But why are we doing it now? Let Europe take care of itself. The Europeans are rich enough to have their own militaries. We are in dire straits now. They should be helping us or rather not held responsible for their safety, putting all their resources to become economic powerhouses.
8
The author is correct that what may work for Germany may not work in Greece. However, if I were a Latvian, Lithuanian, Estonian, Slovakian, etc. I would be extremely distressed that my country took the hard steps towards financial sanity and the Greeks do not collect taxes (10% of the population pays their income tax), the Greeks have ridiculous pension plans in comparison to their GDP, etc. The IMF should never have loaned the money to the Greek government. Best if Greece leaves the Euro Zone and fixes their problems themselves.
8
While the world has invented tools of scope and detail to study and analyze economics we are left with singular terms like sloth to define all of Greece and disciplined to describe Germany.
Obviously Greece is in a tough spot, but the name calling seems unnecessary.
The question is: How does a country that has disappeared 25% of it's GDP over the past eight years grow? And grow fast enough to repay the money borrowed in the past and must borrow going forward? It doesn't look like any nation on earth right now has the answer to those questions.
If some incipient genius were to provide such a receipt he would be laughed at. So, the question becomes...how to handle the debt. Germany wants security, in the form of Greek properties.
Greece will not go for this. The government will fall. The meetings between treasury ministers will continue. Europe has done a great job of ignoring the collapse of culture in Syria. Why not Greece?
There's your solution.
Obviously Greece is in a tough spot, but the name calling seems unnecessary.
The question is: How does a country that has disappeared 25% of it's GDP over the past eight years grow? And grow fast enough to repay the money borrowed in the past and must borrow going forward? It doesn't look like any nation on earth right now has the answer to those questions.
If some incipient genius were to provide such a receipt he would be laughed at. So, the question becomes...how to handle the debt. Germany wants security, in the form of Greek properties.
Greece will not go for this. The government will fall. The meetings between treasury ministers will continue. Europe has done a great job of ignoring the collapse of culture in Syria. Why not Greece?
There's your solution.
2
As evidenced by some of the responses to Mr. Cohen's column, one of the few remaining prejudices that people can proudly exhibit is a prejudice towards those things German.
I know of no other major country where such a gap currently exists between the substantial capacity to project national power and the limited willingness to do so. With time, the gap will grow smaller--and should because there is a need for Germany to play a greater role in European and world affairs--but the talk of what happened in 1941 is absurdly irrelevant.
As a matter of policy, one can argue (as does Paul Krugman) that the insistence of Germany and other countries that Greece make certain changes is bad policy. I do not share that view. But given the issue broached by Mr. Cohen and fully embraced by many on this comments thread, the real question is what do you really expect Germany (as well as other countries) to do?
Allowing Greece to become a member of the euro community was a mistake. And it seems that ultimately, regardless of whatever relief is extended and whatever austerity measures are imposed, Greece will abandon the euro. But to expect Germany and the other nations taking a "hard" line in the negotiations to simply keep giving money to a debtor nation that apparently has neither the wherewithal nor the intent to make good on its obligations is unfair and here a nod to a prejudice that remains acceptable.
I know of no other major country where such a gap currently exists between the substantial capacity to project national power and the limited willingness to do so. With time, the gap will grow smaller--and should because there is a need for Germany to play a greater role in European and world affairs--but the talk of what happened in 1941 is absurdly irrelevant.
As a matter of policy, one can argue (as does Paul Krugman) that the insistence of Germany and other countries that Greece make certain changes is bad policy. I do not share that view. But given the issue broached by Mr. Cohen and fully embraced by many on this comments thread, the real question is what do you really expect Germany (as well as other countries) to do?
Allowing Greece to become a member of the euro community was a mistake. And it seems that ultimately, regardless of whatever relief is extended and whatever austerity measures are imposed, Greece will abandon the euro. But to expect Germany and the other nations taking a "hard" line in the negotiations to simply keep giving money to a debtor nation that apparently has neither the wherewithal nor the intent to make good on its obligations is unfair and here a nod to a prejudice that remains acceptable.
8
"As a matter of policy, one can argue (as does Paul Krugman) that the insistence of Germany and other countries that Greece make certain changes is bad policy."
Krugman doesn't actually argue this. He argues that there are more productive ways to allow Greece to change than simply cutting everyone off. He has said the structure of Greece's economy needs to change and how its government does business needs to change, but he sees German's methods as incredibly destructive. Germany is causing change by destroying everything and forcing them to rebuild.
Krugman doesn't actually argue this. He argues that there are more productive ways to allow Greece to change than simply cutting everyone off. He has said the structure of Greece's economy needs to change and how its government does business needs to change, but he sees German's methods as incredibly destructive. Germany is causing change by destroying everything and forcing them to rebuild.
I totally agree. What I do not quite understand about all this is how did the other countries of Europe incur this debt. As I understand it, the money was lent to Greece by banks and private equity firms, a lawyer for which was recently quoted in the NYT as saying that his clients had gambled....well, the banks apparently gambled too. I am not willing to accept the idea that the international bankers involved in lending this money, did not know the precarious financial situation in Greece. So, they gambled and lost, and the relevant CEO's probably pocketed nice salaries. Now the hard working people of Europe are supposed to pay for the banks' gambles??? I just don't get it.
1
Chancellor Merkel is a quantum chemist PhD. Surely she can understand macroeconomics, but perhaps her past post-war experience and national pride has guided her economic policies for Greece. She might also have been acting to the Germany's national opinions rather than her own belief. Greece and Germany have had two very different war and post-war experiences and cultures. Dr. Merkel may just not know how to stimulate the Greek economy that works for Greece.
1
The question of Germany dominating Central Europe, and therefore Europe as a whole, has been present since the German reunification of the 1860s.
What changed this past weekend was that the German-France motor ended. In its place is a Central European dominated "hard money" bloc combined with a collection of Aspiring States ranging from Portugal and Spain to the southwest, Slovenia to the southeast, the Baltics to the east, Scandinavia to the north, etc.
Italy and France, both with rising and very high debt-to-GDP ratios, are lackluster economic performers in an era when the challenges from the globalized world economy are becoming sharper. These structural weaknesses are increasingly clear to all observers. French President Hollande carried the anti-austerity flag to the barricades this weekend; no one followed. France lost the fight for cross-country mutual debt guarantees for increased public indebtedness to feed a thinly disguised subsidy regime beguilingly named "pro growth."
What Germany established is that high levels of indebtedness leading to financial crisis will earn an EZ country a trip to the woodshed--that recourse to debt mutualization will be rare and painful.
One should not over-generalize off of Greece; it was basically a failing clientelist state not adapting to changing world economic conditions. Read James Angelos' "The Full Catastrophe..." reviewed in the NYT in previous weeks.
What changed this past weekend was that the German-France motor ended. In its place is a Central European dominated "hard money" bloc combined with a collection of Aspiring States ranging from Portugal and Spain to the southwest, Slovenia to the southeast, the Baltics to the east, Scandinavia to the north, etc.
Italy and France, both with rising and very high debt-to-GDP ratios, are lackluster economic performers in an era when the challenges from the globalized world economy are becoming sharper. These structural weaknesses are increasingly clear to all observers. French President Hollande carried the anti-austerity flag to the barricades this weekend; no one followed. France lost the fight for cross-country mutual debt guarantees for increased public indebtedness to feed a thinly disguised subsidy regime beguilingly named "pro growth."
What Germany established is that high levels of indebtedness leading to financial crisis will earn an EZ country a trip to the woodshed--that recourse to debt mutualization will be rare and painful.
One should not over-generalize off of Greece; it was basically a failing clientelist state not adapting to changing world economic conditions. Read James Angelos' "The Full Catastrophe..." reviewed in the NYT in previous weeks.
7
I believe leadership is important. Helmut Kohl was one of the most important person Germany's leader ship and unification of Europe and Germany after cold war .
Merkel is a good leader for Germany but not for Europe, she is not bad but she is not cut from that fabric.
Germany at this moment needs a second Helmut Kohl.
Merkel is a good leader for Germany but not for Europe, she is not bad but she is not cut from that fabric.
Germany at this moment needs a second Helmut Kohl.
Mr. Cohen, Yes , yes, you're right, it seems to be a fact that century after century the Germans get back on their feet with an inborn strength and drive
the rest of the countries around them or sometimes worldwide into 'Verwirrung' and opposition to their natural urge Life for others 'zu verbessern' -(to make Life better for others and teach them what needs to be done) or what they think needs to be done.
Germanic people are deeply rooted in Western Europe, where ever they are,
and they are cousins of those North, West, East and South, who cannot stand each other, but the Germans in the EU today are just always driven to find the ways to make everything work in the best ways for all involved. Look to where they are, in the USA for instance, they brought the best they had, education, farming, teaching, you name it, - during election times 1/3 of voters are still known for where their strength is and how they will vote.
Germany, today, close to Russia geographically, in the middle of everything
bad or good around them, - the heart of the matter is: Germans are needed
everywhere, unfortunately or 'good so', they will hopefully continue
in their current health of body and mind. the world need them, one way or another, because they will be a motor of Life going on everywhere.
the rest of the countries around them or sometimes worldwide into 'Verwirrung' and opposition to their natural urge Life for others 'zu verbessern' -(to make Life better for others and teach them what needs to be done) or what they think needs to be done.
Germanic people are deeply rooted in Western Europe, where ever they are,
and they are cousins of those North, West, East and South, who cannot stand each other, but the Germans in the EU today are just always driven to find the ways to make everything work in the best ways for all involved. Look to where they are, in the USA for instance, they brought the best they had, education, farming, teaching, you name it, - during election times 1/3 of voters are still known for where their strength is and how they will vote.
Germany, today, close to Russia geographically, in the middle of everything
bad or good around them, - the heart of the matter is: Germans are needed
everywhere, unfortunately or 'good so', they will hopefully continue
in their current health of body and mind. the world need them, one way or another, because they will be a motor of Life going on everywhere.
1
Yes Germany Thank you so much for those two world wars and for having destroyed an entire generation of french people in ww1 and millions more in ww2, and totally ruined Europe in the process and given its leadership to the US, Your contribution to civilization will be always appreciated and one really cannot understand why so many jews do not want to live in Germany at this time, they must be missing something....
Cohen's article is well-written but he only hinted in one short sentence at what lies at the root of the present problem in Europe: the hare-brained idea that somehow economic integration without prior political unity has a chance to succeed. If the Europeans had been willing to learn from the American experience, they could have avoided the euro folly. Even after political union the original thirteen states, far more homogeneous than Europe, still had to struggle to achieve economic, specifically financial, integration.
5
and, to political unity, I would add cultural unity through a common language! A Greek cannot work in Germany unless he speaks German, and most people don't speak German, but English when they do speak another language. Why? Because of Germany's failure to export its culture which is appealing to Germans only! Have you ever watched a German movie?
Roger,
No good deed goes unpunished. Your Op-Ed is just a further proof.
Before the last weekend, Germany had already signed up for liabilities close to 90 billion € - all for keeping Greece in the Eurozone. But that will only happen if Greece can stand on its own legs. But you accuse Ms. Merkel of giving too many lessons on responsibility. What else should she do?
Perhaps you will understand Germans who think: The other countries will hate us whenever its suits them. So the best thing is to keep quiet, keep your money for yourself and wait until the storm blows over.
And now you blame it for
No good deed goes unpunished. Your Op-Ed is just a further proof.
Before the last weekend, Germany had already signed up for liabilities close to 90 billion € - all for keeping Greece in the Eurozone. But that will only happen if Greece can stand on its own legs. But you accuse Ms. Merkel of giving too many lessons on responsibility. What else should she do?
Perhaps you will understand Germans who think: The other countries will hate us whenever its suits them. So the best thing is to keep quiet, keep your money for yourself and wait until the storm blows over.
And now you blame it for
10
But, Germany's policies have activity undermined Greece and hurt its chances of standing on its own. And, Germany hasn't kept quiet. They've been the leader in advocating for the policies foisted on Greece.
Germany could have let its own banks go bankrupt and it would not be required to do anything at all for Greece. Why didn't it?
This is the single best short form essay on the subject of a resurgent Germany I have seen - not that what I have seen strengthens canonicity.
He is on the money in pointing out, almost en passant, that Germany has been able to use the euro as the super-charger for its export machine. However much the Germans were endeared to the Mark, there is no question that were it to functionally come back into existence by whatever name, it would be valued at a premium relative to other currencies, particularly the dollar.
Cohen has posed the big question perfectly:
"Yes, the German Question is back. Is German domination compatible with further European integration or will it prove a fracturing force?"
The short term answer?
Probably not.
Watch for the UK, observing the kinder and gentler version of the Germans operating through economic power rather than tanks, to come very close to opting out of the European Union. Cameron is going to delay that promised referendum as long as possible, but it may not be enough to prevent old atavisms about the Continent, and new Cousin Willys, carry the day in that referendum.
And Russian strength as a spoiler in Eastern Europe will only increase as a result.
Turn this around for a moment.
Aside from the fact that Germany was forgiven its debts after WWI and WWII, when it was flat on its back, can anyone imagine the U.S. economic hegemon, however unpretty in its methods, acting towards Greece the way the Germans just did?
He is on the money in pointing out, almost en passant, that Germany has been able to use the euro as the super-charger for its export machine. However much the Germans were endeared to the Mark, there is no question that were it to functionally come back into existence by whatever name, it would be valued at a premium relative to other currencies, particularly the dollar.
Cohen has posed the big question perfectly:
"Yes, the German Question is back. Is German domination compatible with further European integration or will it prove a fracturing force?"
The short term answer?
Probably not.
Watch for the UK, observing the kinder and gentler version of the Germans operating through economic power rather than tanks, to come very close to opting out of the European Union. Cameron is going to delay that promised referendum as long as possible, but it may not be enough to prevent old atavisms about the Continent, and new Cousin Willys, carry the day in that referendum.
And Russian strength as a spoiler in Eastern Europe will only increase as a result.
Turn this around for a moment.
Aside from the fact that Germany was forgiven its debts after WWI and WWII, when it was flat on its back, can anyone imagine the U.S. economic hegemon, however unpretty in its methods, acting towards Greece the way the Germans just did?
6
Germany would like to take credit for it's great economy. But in essence the adoption of the Euro devalued the German Deutschemark and allowed the export driven economy to thrive. Greece on the other hand, needed to make the Euro appear to be a construct of different economies had price increases when they adopted the Euro, and coupled with their own poor political moves and intentional investment that knew Greece was not meeting needed financial benchmarks for loans, etc., resulted in the current crisis.
Now Greece needs to get out of the Euro, devalue it's currency and be able to work it's way back to fiscal stability as a low-cost country. It's tourist and decimated manufacturing and agricultural industries would benefit as well.
And what would happen if Germany went back to the DM? That currency would be of a high value, making all those exports too expensive for other countries to buy.
Germany and Brussels have overplayed their hands. Other citizens of Euro nations are starting to question what the value of the Euro is to them. And it's not going to bode well for Germany in the future.
Now Greece needs to get out of the Euro, devalue it's currency and be able to work it's way back to fiscal stability as a low-cost country. It's tourist and decimated manufacturing and agricultural industries would benefit as well.
And what would happen if Germany went back to the DM? That currency would be of a high value, making all those exports too expensive for other countries to buy.
Germany and Brussels have overplayed their hands. Other citizens of Euro nations are starting to question what the value of the Euro is to them. And it's not going to bode well for Germany in the future.
4
"She has resisted the many German voices saying, “To heck with Greece. Enough!” well she could have fooled me, her tacit acceptance of her Finance Minister Schauble Twitter based demagoguery introduced a new generation to German bellicosity..
5
Wow! We need to go back a little farther than 1913 to discuss those terrible Germans. It was the German tribes that sacked Rome and ended the western portion of the Empire. Of course, it took centuries before Bismarck entered the picture and forced the amalgamation of the tribes into a nation. It took Napoleon to teach the Germans that unification brings strength.
We need to be patient with the EU as they attempt to become a united country with so many disparate nations. It was difficult enough to unite our thirteen colonies to become the USA as any serious student of our history must admit. In the end, the effort to become one totally federated State may elude the EU members. However, it is a dream well worth pursuing and the Greek Tragedy( no pun intended) is just one more obstacle to overcome.
We need to be patient with the EU as they attempt to become a united country with so many disparate nations. It was difficult enough to unite our thirteen colonies to become the USA as any serious student of our history must admit. In the end, the effort to become one totally federated State may elude the EU members. However, it is a dream well worth pursuing and the Greek Tragedy( no pun intended) is just one more obstacle to overcome.
3
A big Thank You to Mr. Tsipras for being willing, when push came to shove, to offer that Greece would sacrifice to preserve the European project.
The European Summit Statement, document no. SN 4070/15, seems likely to fare poorly in the court of professional scrutiny.
The European Summit Statement, document no. SN 4070/15, seems likely to fare poorly in the court of professional scrutiny.
It is really no wonder that German domination not only stirs resentment but also led to Greek 'flip references to the Nazis'.
And yes, the culture of German diktats and discipline - e.g. following marching orders given from above - are the governing style of Ms. Merkel so correctly explained in a short few words by Mr. Cohen.
My very wise father, who lived through and suffered terribly under the horrors of the Third Reich's regime, told me when I came close to voting age in Germany to never vote for a party - especially one from the right - and help that party gain too much power. He patiently educated me with examples through history that Germans and their general psychological make-up are far too vulnerable to fall into lockstep behind the ones in power.
The NSDAP only received 32% of the general vote in the fifth election of a few years in 1933 - yet that 'power' was enough to change world history in the bloodiest way forever, and the almost wiping out of a whole people.
Merkel is in no way comparable to the Austrian paper hanger Schickelgruber, yet she uses the ammunition of money to bring countries with different cultures, including one that was brutally occupied by Germany not long ago, to their knees.
And yes, the culture of German diktats and discipline - e.g. following marching orders given from above - are the governing style of Ms. Merkel so correctly explained in a short few words by Mr. Cohen.
My very wise father, who lived through and suffered terribly under the horrors of the Third Reich's regime, told me when I came close to voting age in Germany to never vote for a party - especially one from the right - and help that party gain too much power. He patiently educated me with examples through history that Germans and their general psychological make-up are far too vulnerable to fall into lockstep behind the ones in power.
The NSDAP only received 32% of the general vote in the fifth election of a few years in 1933 - yet that 'power' was enough to change world history in the bloodiest way forever, and the almost wiping out of a whole people.
Merkel is in no way comparable to the Austrian paper hanger Schickelgruber, yet she uses the ammunition of money to bring countries with different cultures, including one that was brutally occupied by Germany not long ago, to their knees.
2
What Mr Cohen doesn't mention is that current German economic strength didn't just happen, due to some internal German essence, but required significant reforms to the German welfare system and labour markets 15 years ago to overcome the decline of German manufacturing in the 1990s and the economic weakness produced by the attempt to integrate a decrepit and bankrupt East Germany. To some degree these sorts of reforms were also carried out by other northern European countries, but were neglected by southern European ones, the consequences of which we see now. Interestingly, the reforms were carried out by the Social Democratic Party, not the Christian Democratic Union, and Angela Merkel's approach to Greece, whether well or ill advised, is supported not just by the CDU as Mr Cohen notes, but also apparently by the SD.
7
Germany is not in search of its identity. It knows very well what it wants: to be the hegemon of Europe. Unfortunately for everyone else, in Europe and elsewhere, for Germany that means imposing institutional structures on Europe that are beneficial to Germany, and imposing the costs on those to weak to resist.
The "deal" just imposed on Greece requires the latter to sell off major assets and surrender control of its political system to foreigners who answer to Merkel. This is pure German colonialism, no different in substance from the gunboat diplomacy of nineteenth century great powers.
The "deal" just imposed on Greece requires the latter to sell off major assets and surrender control of its political system to foreigners who answer to Merkel. This is pure German colonialism, no different in substance from the gunboat diplomacy of nineteenth century great powers.
2
Dare we forget that West German economic success after the war came with a great deal of money and investment from the United States and Germany's security is still underscored by American power.
It is quite appropriate that the very successful Germany of today come to the rescue of her troubled neighbors. It should be a matter of pride that she is able to do so. So stop being such a scold and be happy that you are in a position to help.
It is quite appropriate that the very successful Germany of today come to the rescue of her troubled neighbors. It should be a matter of pride that she is able to do so. So stop being such a scold and be happy that you are in a position to help.
5
There is a very simple solution to the current predicament. Break up the eurozone and go back to the EU of 1995.
2
There is a very real problem, and it has not been solved. It will be back.
Greece cannot pay. The effort to squeeze every possible Euro out of Greece has made it even less able to pay.
What is now reported can only make that problem worse. The Greek economy driven down will be even less able to pay.
Blame for loaning and borrowing all that money is another question entirely. Today it is what it is, not what any might argue it ought to have been if only one thing or another thing.
The only way out is some combination of growing the economy that is to pay, and shrinking the debt to be paid. This reported deal does the opposite on both. The Greek economy will be driven further down as demand is crushed, and the debt is even higher than it ever was before.
The only new thing is the creditors have seized some Greek government assets they can sell off for their own benefit. The debt has gone up by more than the (large) amount to be sold off, so this does not even benefit the creditors, they are more in the hole even if they collect it all. Greece of course is even more stripped than it was, less able to pay than it was.
There were hard choices to be made all around, on real options that could have improved the Greek ability to pay and reduced the exposure. In an all-night session of egos flaring, none of those hard choices were made. Ducked, all of it ducked.
It will be even harder next time. This isn't ended, and won't end as well as it might have.
Greece cannot pay. The effort to squeeze every possible Euro out of Greece has made it even less able to pay.
What is now reported can only make that problem worse. The Greek economy driven down will be even less able to pay.
Blame for loaning and borrowing all that money is another question entirely. Today it is what it is, not what any might argue it ought to have been if only one thing or another thing.
The only way out is some combination of growing the economy that is to pay, and shrinking the debt to be paid. This reported deal does the opposite on both. The Greek economy will be driven further down as demand is crushed, and the debt is even higher than it ever was before.
The only new thing is the creditors have seized some Greek government assets they can sell off for their own benefit. The debt has gone up by more than the (large) amount to be sold off, so this does not even benefit the creditors, they are more in the hole even if they collect it all. Greece of course is even more stripped than it was, less able to pay than it was.
There were hard choices to be made all around, on real options that could have improved the Greek ability to pay and reduced the exposure. In an all-night session of egos flaring, none of those hard choices were made. Ducked, all of it ducked.
It will be even harder next time. This isn't ended, and won't end as well as it might have.
19
This was a temporary measure, nothing's changed economically. Politically, the Greeks are shamed and kept from accepting Russian aid.
I'm not sure I agree.
I don't think this crisis is about German power, so much as it is about a non-functional currency arrangement. If another country were large and stood to gain a lot from punching down in an arrangement like the euro, they probably would. Alternatively, there's nothing particularly problematic about German power in general. Many European political institutions are functional, and of course Germany, generally the largest participant in those institutions, should and will be influential.
Now, Germany's political class has shown themselves, I think, to be much less competent than perhaps some have let themselves believe. (Aside: don't confuse getting what they set out to get with intelligence or success. The idea that this is going to be a final fix for Greece is a howler, since the austerity measures will keep them in an unsustainable position vis-a-vis their debt. One day, they'll either get a sweeter deal or they'll leave. This will, and to some extent has--unfortunately because of unfair anti-German sentiment--made Merkel et al look pretty bad, as it should.) But having creepy leaders is a contingent fact about a country. Many other countries in Europe can, and often are, blessed with bozos at the top, as is the US. When we assess a country's fitness for wide geopolitical influence, we should remember for every Bush there's a Kennedy and for every Merkel there's a Brandt or an Adenauer.
I don't think this crisis is about German power, so much as it is about a non-functional currency arrangement. If another country were large and stood to gain a lot from punching down in an arrangement like the euro, they probably would. Alternatively, there's nothing particularly problematic about German power in general. Many European political institutions are functional, and of course Germany, generally the largest participant in those institutions, should and will be influential.
Now, Germany's political class has shown themselves, I think, to be much less competent than perhaps some have let themselves believe. (Aside: don't confuse getting what they set out to get with intelligence or success. The idea that this is going to be a final fix for Greece is a howler, since the austerity measures will keep them in an unsustainable position vis-a-vis their debt. One day, they'll either get a sweeter deal or they'll leave. This will, and to some extent has--unfortunately because of unfair anti-German sentiment--made Merkel et al look pretty bad, as it should.) But having creepy leaders is a contingent fact about a country. Many other countries in Europe can, and often are, blessed with bozos at the top, as is the US. When we assess a country's fitness for wide geopolitical influence, we should remember for every Bush there's a Kennedy and for every Merkel there's a Brandt or an Adenauer.
3
To Tim C
" Connecticut's citizens balk mildly at the flow of their tax dollars to Mississippi."
How we forget.
Connecticut Citizen, when Mississippi wished to leave the Union, marched down there and killed those "rebels".
" Connecticut's citizens balk mildly at the flow of their tax dollars to Mississippi."
How we forget.
Connecticut Citizen, when Mississippi wished to leave the Union, marched down there and killed those "rebels".
2
Your point? They were traitors, many fighting to ensure the future of slavery. Had Reconstruction been properly support, this conversation might not even be necessary.
Their power is always misused,
Greek austerity is abused,
It's all about money
With no trace of honey,
Ms Merkel will not be excused.
Greek austerity is abused,
It's all about money
With no trace of honey,
Ms Merkel will not be excused.
11
Maybe Angie will not be excused, but neither will your poetry...
Beautifully put Larry - like always!
The US has not left Europe. In fact neo con zealots interfere in places the US has no business stirring up trouble. The Ukraine mess in which Obama rightfully has not pushed and the Germans and French see as a ridicules waste of time are thwarted by the efforts of neo cons like Senator McCain and Hilary Clinton who seem to want to engage in a destabilizing confrontation with Russia. Merkel is engaged in an insane effort to completely demoralize Greece.
3
Greece demoralized itself.
So preventing Putin from annexing Ukraine, one piece at a time, is simply "stirring up trouble." And giving brutal zealots advanced weapons systems they use to shoot down civilian airliners must, on the other hand, be okay. Maybe because they tried to deny it until everybody came up with the record of their vainglorious tweets.
Got it...
Got it...
A very good column.
As to the future: Ms. Merkel gets along remarkably well with Mr. Cameron, both being pragmatic politicians. More importantly, both countries have a similar economic policy, and both economies are doing well.
I would not be surprised, if the Franco-Allemande coalition would be replaced by a de facto joint coalition between the UK and Germany, different currencies not withstanding - indeed that might be a good thing.
As to the future: Ms. Merkel gets along remarkably well with Mr. Cameron, both being pragmatic politicians. More importantly, both countries have a similar economic policy, and both economies are doing well.
I would not be surprised, if the Franco-Allemande coalition would be replaced by a de facto joint coalition between the UK and Germany, different currencies not withstanding - indeed that might be a good thing.
6
Finally, the Kaiser gets his wish. So much could have been saved over the last 100 years if not for Britain's misguided embrace of L'Entante Cordiale.
The UK's economy is doing well?
And how many US military bases does the US maintain on German soil? Does Germany pick up the tab for ANY of that??
11
Way-ell, ah think ih t'also served ur needs pritty dern good, tyoo. Don't chew? Partililary seein' as how ihduh bin on thayr land we'd uh been fight'n them Rooskies, 'stead a in yer 'n' my back yards.
Why, that woulda bin lak pootin' [sorry, Mr. Pootin, Ah meant "puttin"] 'em on the one inch line at their own end the field jis tuh git duh game goin'.
Why, that woulda bin lak pootin' [sorry, Mr. Pootin, Ah meant "puttin"] 'em on the one inch line at their own end the field jis tuh git duh game goin'.
1
No, the economy of the towns around the bases are built on what our armed forces spend of their salaries if that makes you feel better.
Yes, Germany is paying hundreds of millions every year for US military bases. And Germany has to pay if the US military decides to build new bases in Germany.
2
sorry, but the argument that seems to be shaping up, why can't the German's be more like the Greeks, just doesn't cut it.
32
No, the question is: why does Germany expect all other Europeans to turn German?
Which argument does cut it? That the Greeks be more like the Germans?
No, the argument that is shaping up is, can't Germany be less like the Nazis?
It is outrageous that we have to listen for one second to the "rage at Greece" coming from the German Right. The German Right! The politics that literally gave the world Adolf Hitler, that put him "democratically" in office! That gave us the ravaging of Europe and the Nazi Holocaust!
The German Right has forfeited its right to a voice in anything of significance for the next 1000 years! The German Right proves again today, as it proved yesterday, its total moral incompetence
It is outrageous that we have to listen for one second to the "rage at Greece" coming from the German Right. The German Right! The politics that literally gave the world Adolf Hitler, that put him "democratically" in office! That gave us the ravaging of Europe and the Nazi Holocaust!
The German Right has forfeited its right to a voice in anything of significance for the next 1000 years! The German Right proves again today, as it proved yesterday, its total moral incompetence
1
No, Mr. Cohen. The Eurozone crisis is the result of Greece being not ready to switch to euro. True, Germany is their largest creditor with virtually endless patience but this is NOT a German problem.
It is not easy in the real world to decide who the bad guys are: the creditors or the debtors. This crisis may take much more than a few weekends to be resolved and all negotiators should get first some good night sleep.
Have you ever made a good decision while deprived of sleep? Sleep deprivation has been used as one of the effective ways to 'torture' the detainees. Voluntary lack of sleep is bad for everyone.
It is not easy in the real world to decide who the bad guys are: the creditors or the debtors. This crisis may take much more than a few weekends to be resolved and all negotiators should get first some good night sleep.
Have you ever made a good decision while deprived of sleep? Sleep deprivation has been used as one of the effective ways to 'torture' the detainees. Voluntary lack of sleep is bad for everyone.
17
Whoops! Just suddenly woke! I must admit, however, that Frau Merkel has the most unusual way of demonstrating patience! I wonder what she does when she gets mad? (no wonder Tsipras was hoofin' it for the nearest exit!)
Good point as to who the good guys are. If you can't tell, here's a tip: just ask (particularly at a political rally). They'll tell you in a New York minute, and all at once, too (another hint: video tape the response. You may not be able to figure out who's whom, but then there's always Janis Joplin:
Hmm, don't you know I've been searching,
Oh yes I have!
One good man,
Oh ain't much, honey ain't much...
If Janis couldn't find one, well, that exponentially increases the possibility that either one of us will ever find one.
As for "Few weekends before it gets fixed"?
It'll never be fixed. Your lawn mower work all the time? Things work until, well, they don't. It's the difficulty in just trying to figure when things will and when they won't that keeps lawyers and statesmen and homeowners hoppin'. Why, it's taken me a good 30 minutes to be able to write this worthless comment, simply because my wife has had me up to get the printer fixed, then insisted I go through my sock drawer so I don't wear any with holes anymore, and finally neither of us can get the cat to take a little blue pill without pinning the poor think to the carpet first!
Good luck! Or...does that insure neither of will have any anytime soon?
Good point as to who the good guys are. If you can't tell, here's a tip: just ask (particularly at a political rally). They'll tell you in a New York minute, and all at once, too (another hint: video tape the response. You may not be able to figure out who's whom, but then there's always Janis Joplin:
Hmm, don't you know I've been searching,
Oh yes I have!
One good man,
Oh ain't much, honey ain't much...
If Janis couldn't find one, well, that exponentially increases the possibility that either one of us will ever find one.
As for "Few weekends before it gets fixed"?
It'll never be fixed. Your lawn mower work all the time? Things work until, well, they don't. It's the difficulty in just trying to figure when things will and when they won't that keeps lawyers and statesmen and homeowners hoppin'. Why, it's taken me a good 30 minutes to be able to write this worthless comment, simply because my wife has had me up to get the printer fixed, then insisted I go through my sock drawer so I don't wear any with holes anymore, and finally neither of us can get the cat to take a little blue pill without pinning the poor think to the carpet first!
Good luck! Or...does that insure neither of will have any anytime soon?
With all respect. the problem is not that "the Eurozone crisis is the result of Greece being not ready to switch to euro". The problem is that the europeans thought they could have currency union without political union.
I agree. But Mr. Cohen hates Germany, so don't count on him for anything objective. Never noticed that?
1
There is a lot of anti-german angst in these columns. but what is a country to do but follow its inner sanctums? so the Germans are efficient, hard working and the opposite of profiligate. is that so bad? look where Greece led itself?
55
After WWII Greece was one of the countries that lent Germany money and then forgave the debt when the Germans couldn't pay it.
Seems to me the Germans could do the same but they won't because no German ever missed a chance to put the boot in when it was available.
Seems to me the Germans could do the same but they won't because no German ever missed a chance to put the boot in when it was available.
1
Then, they should have stayed on their own, free of all these "lazy people". Germany wanted Europe, and of course, wanted and reaped the benefits of the so-called currency union. Now, that we've hit a rough patch in the road, suddenly Greece is not Europe anymore. Classic "heads I win, tails you lose."
Kind of like the 1% in this country ...
Kind of like the 1% in this country ...
1
"Is that so bad?" Yup. Look where it led them the last time (1945). Luckily they had the sense to quit before we had to nuke them or left what was left of them to the Russians. Now its economic rather than military but its still the same old Germany. Hopefully they'll lose this one too but I tend to doubt it. All I can do is say Good Luck to the rest of Western Europe.
1
The adjacent editorials by Messrs. Cohen and Krugman raise what is fast-becoming the issue of our time. Today's interconnected global economy accelerates competition between people and nations, rewarding those who succeed and widening the gap between success and failure. The Germans have earned their position in Europe by prudence, efficiency and hard work. The Greeks earned their way into their economic predicament by sloth -- spending too much, borrowing too much, and working too little. The question posed by Messrs. Cohen and Krugman is whether those who cannot or will not make themselves competitive by today's economic standards can simply rely on others to support them.
The Greeks do not approach their successful neighbors with hat in hand. They assert, as does Mr. Cohen, that their sloth is a proud way of life. The Greeks voted indignantly to refuse to make credit-worthy changes in order to receive further bailouts. Mr. Cohen argues that Germany's determination to succeed and its unwillingness to subsidize failure represent some type of flaw in the German character. Mr. Krugman makes a similar argument about those who do not support his theories of unbridled taxing, spending and borrowing.
As the world becomes more competitive, we will see the rise of political actors (and their editorialists) promising shelter and redistribution. But can anyone seriously argue that this will result in stronger nations or people?
The Greeks do not approach their successful neighbors with hat in hand. They assert, as does Mr. Cohen, that their sloth is a proud way of life. The Greeks voted indignantly to refuse to make credit-worthy changes in order to receive further bailouts. Mr. Cohen argues that Germany's determination to succeed and its unwillingness to subsidize failure represent some type of flaw in the German character. Mr. Krugman makes a similar argument about those who do not support his theories of unbridled taxing, spending and borrowing.
As the world becomes more competitive, we will see the rise of political actors (and their editorialists) promising shelter and redistribution. But can anyone seriously argue that this will result in stronger nations or people?
80
AR Clayboy -
The Germans have "earned" their position in Europe at least partly because of the Marshall Plan and because in 1953 their national debt was cut by 50% so that Germany could be economically viable. The economic support given to Germany after the Second World War was unprecedented. Without it, Germany wouldn't be where it is today. That is why some of us, including me, find Germany's attitude and conduct towards Greece to be so unseemly.
The Germans have "earned" their position in Europe at least partly because of the Marshall Plan and because in 1953 their national debt was cut by 50% so that Germany could be economically viable. The economic support given to Germany after the Second World War was unprecedented. Without it, Germany wouldn't be where it is today. That is why some of us, including me, find Germany's attitude and conduct towards Greece to be so unseemly.
2
When a bank loans money to someone who can't pay that money back, they made a bad loan. Suppose you tell us why those bankers, who made bad loans, should be bailed out ? Why should we privatize gains and socialize losses for banks, but let people starve?
Doesn't the argument you make mean that we are fostering noncompetetive banks?
Doesn't the argument you make mean that we are fostering noncompetetive banks?
2
Interestingly I think you mis-characterize both the comments of Mr. Cohen and Mr. Krugman
Respectfully sent....
Respectfully sent....
The article misses the whole point. The author either doesn't understand economics, or, most probably, he didn't follow closely what really happened. Trying to explain the Greek debt crisis mainly in terms of German leadership and its position in Europe, the article gets stuck in dusty stereotypes. But nobody coerced Greece to adopt the euro. It forced its way into it by falsifying all the data at that time, because Greece didn't fulfil any criteria for admission into the euro club. With an inefficient and corrupt economic system, the Greeks kept borrowing up until the credit rating agencies raised the alarm about the totally unsustainable levels of Greek debt. If something can be reproached to Germany(as well as France, the two countries most exposed to the Greek debt) is that they kept lending irresponsibly good money after bad to an almost bankrupt state, in the hope they will recover their losses. And the European Central Bank kept pumping illegally money into Greece. The author should have observed that in the last couple of weeks the most irritated by the farsical incompetent Greek leaders were actually not the Germans, but other countries inside the Eurozone, like Finland, Slovakia or Slovenia, angered by the double standards applied to the Greeks. What would happen when other countries from inside the eurozone would need help? Would the Germans and ECB pump as much money into them? I am afraid not, because by then the common coffers would be almost empty.
73
If Greece didn't fulfill any of the criteria for entry, why did the Euro let them in? If they are such deadbeats, why did the banks loan them money.
Greece is not the only one with a problem.
Greece is not the only one with a problem.
1
Sir, you miss the point. The "economics" argument is a red herring. The problem here is simple: currency union without political union. Germany wants to take all the benefits of having the single currency, but wants nothing of the responsibilities that a united Europe entails, particularly when things go wrong.
The Europeans didn't do the hard work of setting up a federal system of government. No one want to give up an ounce (or should I say milligram) of sovereignty. It is now time to pay the price ...
The Europeans didn't do the hard work of setting up a federal system of government. No one want to give up an ounce (or should I say milligram) of sovereignty. It is now time to pay the price ...
Mr. Stefan,
Your comment; "It forced its way into it by falsifying all the data at that time, because Greece didn't fulfil any criteria for admission into the euro club," is to some extent not all Greece's fault. From today's Independent, "Greece managed to keep within the strict Maastricht rules for eurozone membership largely because of complex financial deals created by the investment bank (Goldman Sachs) which critics say disguised the extent of the country’s outstanding debts. Goldman swapped debt issued by Greece in dollars and yen for euros which were priced at a historical exchange rate that made the debt look smaller than it actually was. The swaps reportedly made about 2 per cent of Greece’s debt disappear from its national accounts." Hence, Greece was allowed to join the Eurozone. This is not to say that Greece should not be held accountable for their actions but I do believe it is a little strong to suggest that they forced their way in by falsifying the data.
Your comment; "It forced its way into it by falsifying all the data at that time, because Greece didn't fulfil any criteria for admission into the euro club," is to some extent not all Greece's fault. From today's Independent, "Greece managed to keep within the strict Maastricht rules for eurozone membership largely because of complex financial deals created by the investment bank (Goldman Sachs) which critics say disguised the extent of the country’s outstanding debts. Goldman swapped debt issued by Greece in dollars and yen for euros which were priced at a historical exchange rate that made the debt look smaller than it actually was. The swaps reportedly made about 2 per cent of Greece’s debt disappear from its national accounts." Hence, Greece was allowed to join the Eurozone. This is not to say that Greece should not be held accountable for their actions but I do believe it is a little strong to suggest that they forced their way in by falsifying the data.
There is no country that benefits more from the Euro than Germany does, and yet it appears that there is no country that seems immune to that fact than Germany, whose people seem to think that German participation in the Euro is a great act of generosity to other European nations on the part of Germany. What would be a great step forward is for Merkel and her ministers to be honest with their citizens -- that an export driven economy like Germany's benefits immensely when currency risk is taken out of the trade equation, in trading with Euro member states, and furthermore, that weakness among other countries like Greece that makes the Euro overall a weaker currency benefits Germany especially when it exports to non-Euro economies, like the United States. In short, Germany may be the most virtuous of nations, but it benefits enormously by being the wealthiest member of a family that has some very libertine members. If the family members exit the Euro and Germany goes back to the Deutschmark, it will likely suffer (in relative terms) vis a vis those countries as well as the U.S. This has nothing to do with virtue or morality or national character, but economics and it seems like German politicians are apt to conflate these things to their longer term peril.
214
You make a series of very valid points about the "export subsidy" for Germany associated with the Euro versus some sort of "Germany only" currency
1
True enough, Barbara, but the Greeks would also be in trouble today if they still had the the Drachma. Judging by your well written comments, I assume that you do not continually spend more than you earn, cook the books and lie to your creditors.
There is no reason why the Germans and the Greeks could not both be doing well if the Greeks would just do less of the things that I mentioned above..
There is no reason why the Germans and the Greeks could not both be doing well if the Greeks would just do less of the things that I mentioned above..
2
Please examine these facts:
1) Germany's exposure to Greece before the proposed 3rd bailout is roughly 90 billion Euros. This compares to a German Federal budget in 2014 of 302 billion Euros. Greece received so far 35 times on a per capita basis what Germans received under the Marshall plan in the 1950s.
2) You maintain that if all the major Euro countries except Germany were to leave the Euro over time, Germany would 'suffer' as the rump Euro (i.e.Deutschmark) would rise in value sharply making German exports uncompetitive. In the short term probably yes, in the long term most likely no. Look at Switzerland: they continue to do quite well despite a recent drastic revaluation. Its a misconception that Switzerland lives of private banking - similar to Germany it is an exporting powerhouse. Look at Germany's major trading partner France: In 1953 1 French Franc bought 1.20 Deutschmark, 40 years later in 1993 1 French Franc bought only 0.29 Deutschmarks. During that period German exports to France rose sharply.
3) The analysis should not be made into a 'morality issue' but clearly point out that the Euro (France made this a precondition to agree to German reunification) is not sustainable in its current form. There needs to be an orderly unwind. Most economists agree. How this can be done in an orderly fashion I have no idea.
1) Germany's exposure to Greece before the proposed 3rd bailout is roughly 90 billion Euros. This compares to a German Federal budget in 2014 of 302 billion Euros. Greece received so far 35 times on a per capita basis what Germans received under the Marshall plan in the 1950s.
2) You maintain that if all the major Euro countries except Germany were to leave the Euro over time, Germany would 'suffer' as the rump Euro (i.e.Deutschmark) would rise in value sharply making German exports uncompetitive. In the short term probably yes, in the long term most likely no. Look at Switzerland: they continue to do quite well despite a recent drastic revaluation. Its a misconception that Switzerland lives of private banking - similar to Germany it is an exporting powerhouse. Look at Germany's major trading partner France: In 1953 1 French Franc bought 1.20 Deutschmark, 40 years later in 1993 1 French Franc bought only 0.29 Deutschmarks. During that period German exports to France rose sharply.
3) The analysis should not be made into a 'morality issue' but clearly point out that the Euro (France made this a precondition to agree to German reunification) is not sustainable in its current form. There needs to be an orderly unwind. Most economists agree. How this can be done in an orderly fashion I have no idea.
1
I think an essential part of the problem has already been touched upon by another commenter. I'll expound upon it a bit. I think what this commenter termed "the abdication of national sovereignty to banks and the corporate state" hits upon the problem beautifully. And does anyone notice how familiar that sounds? We are experiencing the same problem here in the United States.
Both the German populace and the Greek populace are rightly angered by the current situation. The banking system has played a major role in this mess. Greece has already received two bailouts and yet those many, many Euros have left Greece as a nation no less vulnerable to economic implosion. How is this possible? The poor financial practices of Greece are certainly a significant part of the problem too. If millions of Greeks expect to retire in their 50s and live on a generous pension and yet refuse to pay taxes something has to give.
But the banks are indeed a big part of this mess. By taking immense financial risks without due diligence and then expecting the Germans, Greeks (and Americans) to foot the bill the banking system is acting to undermine the democratic process within these different sovereign states.
Whose money is it anyway? Profits before people negates the essence of the project of democracy.
Both the German populace and the Greek populace are rightly angered by the current situation. The banking system has played a major role in this mess. Greece has already received two bailouts and yet those many, many Euros have left Greece as a nation no less vulnerable to economic implosion. How is this possible? The poor financial practices of Greece are certainly a significant part of the problem too. If millions of Greeks expect to retire in their 50s and live on a generous pension and yet refuse to pay taxes something has to give.
But the banks are indeed a big part of this mess. By taking immense financial risks without due diligence and then expecting the Germans, Greeks (and Americans) to foot the bill the banking system is acting to undermine the democratic process within these different sovereign states.
Whose money is it anyway? Profits before people negates the essence of the project of democracy.
242
Living off others negates the essence of the project of democracy.
Ordinary Greek citizens have their taxes taken out of their salaries monthly, just as here in France.
The wealthy of Greece (and most of the rest of the world) continue to evade paying a fair share of taxes and put their money in tax havens offshore.
Banks and corporations have been handing the money back and forth. Ordinary citizens have only suffered...all over Europe.
It's time to drop the pretense of "Union" and get out of the Eurozone now!
The Germans can have it all to themselves!
The wealthy of Greece (and most of the rest of the world) continue to evade paying a fair share of taxes and put their money in tax havens offshore.
Banks and corporations have been handing the money back and forth. Ordinary citizens have only suffered...all over Europe.
It's time to drop the pretense of "Union" and get out of the Eurozone now!
The Germans can have it all to themselves!
1
Precisely, and if the Euro is not backed by the taxing power of a central government with real authority, is it really viable money? Read these words printed on every U.S. dollar bill:" This note is legal tender for all debts public and private."
Which government in Europe has the power to make that statement and back it up with force and taxing power? Which government has the power to enforce lending rules throughout the Euro area?
Which government in Europe has the power to make that statement and back it up with force and taxing power? Which government has the power to enforce lending rules throughout the Euro area?
In the corporate world, one could fire people in a respectfully and humanely or one could fire people in a humiliating and cruel way. The job termination process of each company defines its legacy and character and will help or hinder its future.
German could have push Greece out with a firm deadline and compassionately assist Greece during the transition. Instead, German chooses to give a lot of excuses and reasoning for a short term thinking profitable debtor squeeze. "Might makes right" and "moral hazard" are not workable combo argument. People see through it.
German could have push Greece out with a firm deadline and compassionately assist Greece during the transition. Instead, German chooses to give a lot of excuses and reasoning for a short term thinking profitable debtor squeeze. "Might makes right" and "moral hazard" are not workable combo argument. People see through it.
8
Germany and other European countries want Greece to determine its own destiny. No one is squeezing Greece - 300BEuro in the hole...and no real prospect of it being paid back in the next 200 years.
If Germany is too firm with deadline, then they are made scapegoats; if Greece cannot man-up and take responsiblity by passing reforms and beginning to privatize, then they will have only themselves to blame.
And shame on Greece for calling Germans Nazi's and Frau Merkel the new Hitler. Shame on Greece for using proganada to try and embarass Germany for the past, and shame them into giving more money. Sorry - no more money; and the past is forgiven and done with. 70 years later, its time to get on with the new world. The next proganada will be Greeks showing pensioners waiting in front of banks. Shame on the Greek Government. They should have thought about this before their referendum.
If Germany is too firm with deadline, then they are made scapegoats; if Greece cannot man-up and take responsiblity by passing reforms and beginning to privatize, then they will have only themselves to blame.
And shame on Greece for calling Germans Nazi's and Frau Merkel the new Hitler. Shame on Greece for using proganada to try and embarass Germany for the past, and shame them into giving more money. Sorry - no more money; and the past is forgiven and done with. 70 years later, its time to get on with the new world. The next proganada will be Greeks showing pensioners waiting in front of banks. Shame on the Greek Government. They should have thought about this before their referendum.
You have not read the history of this. The Greeks were given lot's of chances and several dead deadlines and have not made use of them. You really know very little about this subject!
Two crucial points regarding Germany and the situation in Greece.
1. The Germany way has brought Germany and much of Europe unprecedented prosperity.
2. The Greek way has brought Greece and the others that have practiced the Greek way nothing by economic failure and hardship to their citizens.
Now, which is the better way to go with Greece and the Germans?
1. The Germany way has brought Germany and much of Europe unprecedented prosperity.
2. The Greek way has brought Greece and the others that have practiced the Greek way nothing by economic failure and hardship to their citizens.
Now, which is the better way to go with Greece and the Germans?
53
I wish thinks were that sinple !
But Greece is not Germany. The land is different, the history is different, the people are different.
One reason the "German way" has worked so well is because it spends mere pennies on defending itself, relying instead on the U.S. to foot that bill.
"....more flexible Mediterranean culture to German diktats of discipline, predictability and austerity."
Polite words for a lazy culture. There is nothing predatory here. There is one culture which accepts that social largess must be equaled by work ethic and production, and one which believes in support system which nobody has to pay for it. The results are exactly what we are witnessing.
Lazy countries need to be able to devalue their currency to survive. This is course still hurts everyone in that country, but if the culture accepts a lower standard of living, let it be so. The value of their currency can fall in line with the value of their work (a low level).
It would of course be better just to not have a 'lax culture', but you can't force responsibility on those determined not to accept it.
Greece should leave the Euro, default on the debt and learn and let the chips fall as they may.
Polite words for a lazy culture. There is nothing predatory here. There is one culture which accepts that social largess must be equaled by work ethic and production, and one which believes in support system which nobody has to pay for it. The results are exactly what we are witnessing.
Lazy countries need to be able to devalue their currency to survive. This is course still hurts everyone in that country, but if the culture accepts a lower standard of living, let it be so. The value of their currency can fall in line with the value of their work (a low level).
It would of course be better just to not have a 'lax culture', but you can't force responsibility on those determined not to accept it.
Greece should leave the Euro, default on the debt and learn and let the chips fall as they may.
9
If they are going to live together peacefully their culture will be an amalgamation and both sides have to come to terms with that. Germany does not really, in its heart, want other European nations to compete with it head on or successfully in the same things that Germans excel at. For one thing, where would Germans go for holidays?
15
Germans love Italy, Spain, America, Sweden, Denmark, Norway, Holland and so on and on....no problem. Seems that all those countries are happy to take the Germans' money!!
Cohen needs to consider that Germany probably would be much happier and wouldn't bother anybody if people paid back the money they borrowed. Are we saying that not paying your bills is a Mediterranean personality trait, and that Germany should understand that?
23
Germany itself didn't pay all its bills and its own debts were adjusted several times in the past. So does that mean that not paying your bills is actually a German trait?
Germany's economic success is on the back of their creditors.
If not for America forgiving Germany's debts in 1953, Germany would still trying to recover from WWII.
Compared to what Germany owed, Greece owes next to nothing.
To add fuel to the fire, in the 90's Germany stopped paying the loans and occupation costs it pressed out of the countries it had occupied during World War II. That includes Greece!
If Germany's creditors demanded repayment from Germany, the way Germany is demanding repayment from Greece, Germany would be bankrupt.
Germany's actions with regards to Greece are atrocious.
Having Germany's creditor's renew their claims for reparations would be a fitting ending to this Greek tragedy.
If not for America forgiving Germany's debts in 1953, Germany would still trying to recover from WWII.
Compared to what Germany owed, Greece owes next to nothing.
To add fuel to the fire, in the 90's Germany stopped paying the loans and occupation costs it pressed out of the countries it had occupied during World War II. That includes Greece!
If Germany's creditors demanded repayment from Germany, the way Germany is demanding repayment from Greece, Germany would be bankrupt.
Germany's actions with regards to Greece are atrocious.
Having Germany's creditor's renew their claims for reparations would be a fitting ending to this Greek tragedy.
When German debt was written down in 1953 before their Economic Miracle, whose culture should we be referring to?
1
I think we all know the reasons for Germany's reluctance to resume misusing power. It is a pity they cannot master another way.
2
...and the USA has never misused it's power!
Germany gained its wealth by supplying the money and goods for the southern Europe bubble. Now its burst and its holding worthless debt. It should reap what it has sewn.
40
Do you even know what percentage of the Greek debt is held by German banks? It's not very large! Greece and Detroit have a lot in Common.
That is only partially true. Germany exports all over the world. Have you ever been in a country that does not have lots og German cars.
There are even BMW and Mercedes cars in Detroit
There are even BMW and Mercedes cars in Detroit
In the end, you can’t have true unification of independent states with independent histories, cultures, languages and modes of governance. Certainly, one currency won’t do it. Inevitably, in order to achieve ANY form of unification you can’t do it on a confederacy model but by allowing one dominant state to basically set the rules – and that assumes that all the others are sufficiently complaisant that they’re willing to become something they weren’t to secure whatever benefits accrue to unity. Clearly, the Greeks aren’t that, despite what now appears to be a surrender of their sovereignty but not, say, France’s.
Interestingly, one of the first popular writers of heft that I read on this issue was Krugman, who was doubtful about all this many years ago – if there had been broad-based online forums then, I would have been agreeing with him then, instead of merely for the past eight-plus years here.
Europe’s attempt to rein in Germany and become a United States of Europe was doomed from the start – the U.S., for MANY reasons, is a unique animal whose conditions of evolution can’t really be duplicated -- or properly explained in detail in 1500 characters (including spaces). The Greeks will rebel again, and Europe has merely succeeded in kicking the can down the road a couple of more years, if that.
Germany needed to realize that the Europe they dominate can only exist strategically of states capable of being dominated at all. They failed at that.
Interestingly, one of the first popular writers of heft that I read on this issue was Krugman, who was doubtful about all this many years ago – if there had been broad-based online forums then, I would have been agreeing with him then, instead of merely for the past eight-plus years here.
Europe’s attempt to rein in Germany and become a United States of Europe was doomed from the start – the U.S., for MANY reasons, is a unique animal whose conditions of evolution can’t really be duplicated -- or properly explained in detail in 1500 characters (including spaces). The Greeks will rebel again, and Europe has merely succeeded in kicking the can down the road a couple of more years, if that.
Germany needed to realize that the Europe they dominate can only exist strategically of states capable of being dominated at all. They failed at that.
12
They could have had a federal Europe, the U.S. under Articles of Confederation were not so much different - different religions, currency, economy, etc., by colony - with the exception of language, which is not a roadblock.
They could have looked to our federal model, and created a bicameral legislature, to reflect population and protect smaller states, and an elected executive which would have legitimacy.
It would have taken surrendering some sovereignty, which I presume the states/nations in question were not willing to do. So, who was "lazy" when it came to the political work?
Therefore, they have some made-up currency union, some abstract belief that they are "European" (of course, only when things are going well) which translates into no actual concerted action, and continue merrily down the path of ignoring their lack of political union ... with Spain, Portugal, Italy lurking just a few exits down the road.
They could have looked to our federal model, and created a bicameral legislature, to reflect population and protect smaller states, and an elected executive which would have legitimacy.
It would have taken surrendering some sovereignty, which I presume the states/nations in question were not willing to do. So, who was "lazy" when it came to the political work?
Therefore, they have some made-up currency union, some abstract belief that they are "European" (of course, only when things are going well) which translates into no actual concerted action, and continue merrily down the path of ignoring their lack of political union ... with Spain, Portugal, Italy lurking just a few exits down the road.
1
"global capitalism makes democracy seem amateurish" I have tried over the years to publish this quote from Philips ...its a simple explanation
1
Young Germans don't want to dominate anybody. It's just too much like hard work.
They just don't want to pay for other countries different life styles.
They just don't want to pay for other countries different life styles.
1
Remember the signature songs from the movie Cabaret set in Berlin before WWII?
"Money makes the world go around"
"Life is a cabaret "
"No use permitting some prophet of doom
To wipe every smile away.
Come hear the music play.
Life is a Cabaret, old chum,
Come to the Cabaret!"
Is Germany part of the Cabaret or is it just funding it?
"Money makes the world go around"
"Life is a cabaret "
"No use permitting some prophet of doom
To wipe every smile away.
Come hear the music play.
Life is a Cabaret, old chum,
Come to the Cabaret!"
Is Germany part of the Cabaret or is it just funding it?
1
It takes two to tango.
What happened last night in Europe confirms what pretty much everybody knew or suspected: There is no solidarity between European countries, and Germany's powerful economy is leading the ball! 70 years after the end of WWII, a war of conquest started by Germany which was joined later on by its accomplices (Italy and Japan), the world hasn't learned its lessons. The Axis was defeated at a cost of nearly 60 million dead. Germany's war of conquest devastated most of Europe, bringing misery to millions of people. And yet, Germany was rebuilt with American money in order to keep the Soviet Union in check. In 1953, half of Germany's debt was cancelled in order to speed up its economic recovery. In 2015, Germany is showing its "gratitude" by humiliating a country and a people which it invaded and starved between 1941 and 1944. Worrisome, to say the least!
126
Hello? The vast majority of Germans were not alive during world war 2!!!
Do you feel morally obligated/impacted by the bombing of innocent civilians in Hiroshima?
There is a statute of limitations for these odd historic references about Nazi Germany I have read in these comments
Do you feel morally obligated/impacted by the bombing of innocent civilians in Hiroshima?
There is a statute of limitations for these odd historic references about Nazi Germany I have read in these comments
1
Right on. There has never been any common "European" identity to begin with. The variety of ethnic group living in the European landmass have fought and brutalized each other for centuries. The current efforts at "solidarity" and relative calm among the key ethnic groups is more of an exception.
It was worthy experiment but it was not going to work. I hope the European nations don't fall back to old habits and start next world war. But old habits die hard and history often repeats itself.
It was worthy experiment but it was not going to work. I hope the European nations don't fall back to old habits and start next world war. But old habits die hard and history often repeats itself.
1
Are you in all seriousness introduce this tired, REAL tired stereotype and chest nutty prejudice without even blushing? Yawn.
1
Greek bashing is de rigueur in Germany and many commentators who focus only on the fact that it has received by now hundreds of billions of bailout money. What Germans and critics ignore is that you cannot convert other people into Germans by lecturing and imposing austerity measures that lead to impoverishment. Much of the Greek bailout is really a bailout of German and French banks who lent money without checking whether the recipients were using the funds in ways that would make it possible to repay the debt. Germany was quite happy to export luxury cars to Greece on credit, maybe the first thing it should have asked is for the return of those luxury cars as part of debt payment. It is fine to ask for elimination of non-productive jobs, too many on public payroll collecting money for nothing in return. Nothing is solved though if those dismissed have no jobs to turn to, the consequences are obvious, a shrinking of the economy and more, rather than less, debt. On top of it all, the rest of Europe is quite happy to let wealthy Greeks take their money out of Greece and invest into their own countries.
67
Then perhaps the Greek government should not have falsified data to enter the Eurozone or borrowed the money given the realities of a tax cheating economy and ridiculously rich public pensions?
2
Correct! You have identified the cause but not how to solve the problem.
Don't propagate a misconception. The public pensions of individuals are not lavish, the lowest in W Europe. The national total is high because of the age of the population, perhaps the highest in W Europe and the large (I agree, overlarge) public sector. Everyone else was happy to make money from the loan-financed Greek government--German construction companies--and from the high flying Greek national bonds--German savings associations--and from each restructuring--Goldman Sachs--but in the end it will be the middle and working class of Greece who will suffer the most.
1
That was nicely to the point! Germany imposing harsh measures on Greece is a Germany showing its hideous face just after it managed to please the world during the 2006 Soccer World Cup. The only thing missing in the long list of impositions might be the request to raise an occupation tax to cover the creditors expenses like Germany did just over 70 years ago...
21
...that is the 2014 World Cup in Brazil and not the 2006 World Cup!
One of your best columns. Just back from France when I was stunned to find that the upper class had become German - faulting Greece alone. The anger at the lazy Greeks combined with a total misunderstanding of the creation of the Euro was shocking. The 'haves' are anti-tax and anti-social programs to an extent that the future of the EU is questionable. Please follow-up on this topic.
11
have suspected all along that this crisis, like so much else that is happening these days, has aggressive class warfare by the wealthy at its root. The rest of us are not making them money (or giving them money, doesn't matter which) fast enough to suit them.
This requires an honest appraisal of Merkel - her greatest political accomplishment was to put a knife in the back of her mentor/patron, Helmut Kohl, and take his job.
She plays a zero sum game - to win, someone has to loose. Too win big, someone has to loose big. (Brits take note!)
Look at how the "bail out" has played out. This is a transfer of bank loans from dumb French/German banks (the ones that bought the worst "AAA" mortgage back securities) to the EU governments. Now Germans issue paper at 1% and charge the Greeks 3-4% (there is $3B in profit sitting around).
That being said - the Greeks should have implemented most of the reforms outlined, and then leave the Euro. The Loans would convert to deficit to the Euro countries, and the Greeks would have a competitive currency. The problem is to pull this off would require operational expertise, in which the incompetent ideologues in Athens are totally void of.
She plays a zero sum game - to win, someone has to loose. Too win big, someone has to loose big. (Brits take note!)
Look at how the "bail out" has played out. This is a transfer of bank loans from dumb French/German banks (the ones that bought the worst "AAA" mortgage back securities) to the EU governments. Now Germans issue paper at 1% and charge the Greeks 3-4% (there is $3B in profit sitting around).
That being said - the Greeks should have implemented most of the reforms outlined, and then leave the Euro. The Loans would convert to deficit to the Euro countries, and the Greeks would have a competitive currency. The problem is to pull this off would require operational expertise, in which the incompetent ideologues in Athens are totally void of.
25
Oh, Merkel "put a knife" in someones's back? So you're a sexist as well?
It's not only a lack of operational expertise, it's a lack of political will and with or without reforms, the Greeks don't want to leave the Euro.
If the whole Euro Zone thing fails, eventually, who will get the blame? Germany or Greece? I think I know what the Germans would/will say. That's why they are not capable of good leadership.
9
The German power question preceded 1945 but goes back to the Franco-Prussian War in the late19th Century.
It is time that we have a Media, an intelligensia, and politicians tell the truth. Debt and deficits are made worse by austerity not better. The question should not how to pay for things but the dangers of not creating fairer debt service along side reforms.
It is time that we have a Media, an intelligensia, and politicians tell the truth. Debt and deficits are made worse by austerity not better. The question should not how to pay for things but the dangers of not creating fairer debt service along side reforms.
39
The IMF agrees with you that debt restructuring must happen...longer amortization
Reduxit aside -- and it's appropriate -- this piece offers a perspective I had never imagined before. A brilliant piece.
William Butler Yeats (1865-1939)
THE SECOND COMING
Turning and turning in the widening gyre
The falcon cannot hear the falconer;
Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity...
Thank you Mr. Cohen.
William Butler Yeats (1865-1939)
THE SECOND COMING
Turning and turning in the widening gyre
The falcon cannot hear the falconer;
Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity...
Thank you Mr. Cohen.
2
Terrific!...
Reduxit
Reduxit
Face it Northern Europeans has found the balance between economic and humanistic well being.
Their progressive integration of technology with job training education and the social sciences have made them a model for human progress.
Their common well being political and cultural balance is consummated in ways that their neighbors and America can only long for .
Their progressive integration of technology with job training education and the social sciences have made them a model for human progress.
Their common well being political and cultural balance is consummated in ways that their neighbors and America can only long for .
10
Mr. Cohen makes an important point. If you don't believe him, look up "Am deutschen Wesen soll die Welt genesen."
1
...and then we our own Manifest Destiny and America Exeptionalism.
The USA and Germany have a lot in common today!
The USA and Germany have a lot in common today!
Dear Roger,
I personally like you because your brave reporting (with a diligent work of many other courageous reporters and TV crews) during the war in Bosnia more than two decades ago helped save my life and the lives of several hundred thousand people surrounded and sieged in Sarajevo and Bosnia.
However, exactly for that very reason I have to advise you when you are wrong.
There are no principles that are good for the Germans, the Bosnians or the Americans.
The principles are either good for the whole humanity or bad for everybody.
The great principles are not limited to any nation, gender, religion, race or age group...
I personally like you because your brave reporting (with a diligent work of many other courageous reporters and TV crews) during the war in Bosnia more than two decades ago helped save my life and the lives of several hundred thousand people surrounded and sieged in Sarajevo and Bosnia.
However, exactly for that very reason I have to advise you when you are wrong.
There are no principles that are good for the Germans, the Bosnians or the Americans.
The principles are either good for the whole humanity or bad for everybody.
The great principles are not limited to any nation, gender, religion, race or age group...
4
Too true, John, I absolutely agree.
1
Can we please stop with the constant reference to WW2...it does a disservice to the millions who perished.
Let us be direct. Greece lied on their application to join the Euro currency, by exaggerating the health of their economy, promising reforms and privatization, etc etc. The reality is that Greece saw the EU as a means to wean free money from the tit of Europe. Now that Germany has said enough is enough, "Greece has no clothes," everyone is now up in arms.
Bravo to Frau Merkel and Herr Schauble for being the voice of reason.
As for commentators like Roger Cohen, people in glass houses etc etc first explain Detriot and numerous other cities across the wealthiest country in the world now going bankrupt, and turning into ghost towns, etc etc.
France and Germany combined have leant more money to Greece than the rest of Europe and ECB combined, hence why these two countries are driving these negotiations.
German dominations?!? you mean a country that has a woman chancellor, a handicap minister of finance, a gay minister of foreign affairs, - what planet are you living in? The German Consititution forbids debt, which was how Hitler financed the war. So spare all of us you German prejudice and anticiqated reference to 1930. Germany actually studied economies in school, and is merely applying basical principles, trying to help all of Europe; ask Poland, ask Czech Republic, ask Slovakia, ask the former-Yugoslavia countries; Rober, you're embarrassing yourself.
Let us be direct. Greece lied on their application to join the Euro currency, by exaggerating the health of their economy, promising reforms and privatization, etc etc. The reality is that Greece saw the EU as a means to wean free money from the tit of Europe. Now that Germany has said enough is enough, "Greece has no clothes," everyone is now up in arms.
Bravo to Frau Merkel and Herr Schauble for being the voice of reason.
As for commentators like Roger Cohen, people in glass houses etc etc first explain Detriot and numerous other cities across the wealthiest country in the world now going bankrupt, and turning into ghost towns, etc etc.
France and Germany combined have leant more money to Greece than the rest of Europe and ECB combined, hence why these two countries are driving these negotiations.
German dominations?!? you mean a country that has a woman chancellor, a handicap minister of finance, a gay minister of foreign affairs, - what planet are you living in? The German Consititution forbids debt, which was how Hitler financed the war. So spare all of us you German prejudice and anticiqated reference to 1930. Germany actually studied economies in school, and is merely applying basical principles, trying to help all of Europe; ask Poland, ask Czech Republic, ask Slovakia, ask the former-Yugoslavia countries; Rober, you're embarrassing yourself.
57
We all lent more money to Germany after the war the Germans started than Germany has ever lent to Greece. It is entirely a fair argument to bring up the Marshall Plan as well as the fact that Germany's debt was forgiven after the war. If we had behaved as the Germans have towards Greece, Europe would be a far different place today. Cities in the US going bankrupt really proves the point. In bankruptcy, creditors take a haircut and at the end the city starts out with a clean slate. That is in essence what Greece needs...but countries can't go bankrupt...there is no Bankruptcy court for them.
And...this is really rich: *it does a disservice to the millions who perished. *
You make it sound as if the millions just fell over and died...as if no one was responsible! Let me clue you in: the Germans killed all of those people, millions of them. I studied in Germany in my youth and one of the German instructors often said to us, "We must never forget what happened here." (usually when we were visiting war memorials and concentration camps) meaning of course that if we forget, it will be repeated. It seems as if the new Germans have truly forgotten the lessons of that hideous war. The true disservice is to forget WWII and proceed as if it never happened. I don't usually resort to Hitler references (Godwin's Law and all) but you brought it up. Yes we know this Generation did not fight for Hitler, but when you start to sound like him you better be ready for the comparison.
And...this is really rich: *it does a disservice to the millions who perished. *
You make it sound as if the millions just fell over and died...as if no one was responsible! Let me clue you in: the Germans killed all of those people, millions of them. I studied in Germany in my youth and one of the German instructors often said to us, "We must never forget what happened here." (usually when we were visiting war memorials and concentration camps) meaning of course that if we forget, it will be repeated. It seems as if the new Germans have truly forgotten the lessons of that hideous war. The true disservice is to forget WWII and proceed as if it never happened. I don't usually resort to Hitler references (Godwin's Law and all) but you brought it up. Yes we know this Generation did not fight for Hitler, but when you start to sound like him you better be ready for the comparison.
"As for commentators like Roger Cohen, people in glass houses etc etc first explain Detriot and numerous other cities across the wealthiest country in the world now going bankrupt, and turning into ghost towns, etc etc."
Good one that, so now American journalists aren't allowed to cast a critical eye on European economic doings, because of Detroit. How about Germans not being allowed to cast a critical eye on anything, because of their history? No: didn't think you'd like that idea, and neither do I, insofar as present day Germans are no more responsible for Hitler than Cohen is for Detroit. So why don't you stop with your inane "glass house" lessons?
Good one that, so now American journalists aren't allowed to cast a critical eye on European economic doings, because of Detroit. How about Germans not being allowed to cast a critical eye on anything, because of their history? No: didn't think you'd like that idea, and neither do I, insofar as present day Germans are no more responsible for Hitler than Cohen is for Detroit. So why don't you stop with your inane "glass house" lessons?
Oh, yes, let's stop references to the 2 world wars that Germany started and say it's a disservice to the dead. Let's also stop talking about the times Germany was bailed out.
All those references to Germany's past transgressions makes them look bad. How can Germany lecture those lazy Latins and other inferiors if people keep bringing up the tragic outcomes of the last 2 times they decided they need to rule because they're just so much better than everybody else.
All those references to Germany's past transgressions makes them look bad. How can Germany lecture those lazy Latins and other inferiors if people keep bringing up the tragic outcomes of the last 2 times they decided they need to rule because they're just so much better than everybody else.
These are legitimate questions in a situation where most Germans appear to support policies by their chancellor by which Greek pensioners must look for their food in garbage dumps and Greek children have no medicine when they get sick. Policies by which Greece is supposed to turn national treasures like its antiquities over to private loan sharks.
Of note, all this is to service German, French and Wall Street bankers who pushed subprime loans onto Nea Dimokratia and PASOK governments, the way they did onto U.S. homeowners. Most of the "loans" Greece has received in the last 5 years went straight back to service debt that reckless previous governments took on, not to take care of people's needs.
When German people support these vicious policies, repeating their myth that they are the only hard-working, frugal people and Greeks are lazy spendthrifts, they are simply preparing for the pension cuts and sales of common goods to eventually hit them.
Why would European plutocrats stop with Greece? Divide et impera is a maxim of the Roman empire that worked well every time that one people let itself be divided against another. Today's emperors are the international plutocrats who reside in Frankfurt, London and New York. They have their local enforcers in Greek oligarchs and their politicians - Samaras, Papandreou and the rest.
Germans had learned modesty after the destructiveness of their Herrenrasse episode. How sad and how disturbing they seem to have unlearned.
Of note, all this is to service German, French and Wall Street bankers who pushed subprime loans onto Nea Dimokratia and PASOK governments, the way they did onto U.S. homeowners. Most of the "loans" Greece has received in the last 5 years went straight back to service debt that reckless previous governments took on, not to take care of people's needs.
When German people support these vicious policies, repeating their myth that they are the only hard-working, frugal people and Greeks are lazy spendthrifts, they are simply preparing for the pension cuts and sales of common goods to eventually hit them.
Why would European plutocrats stop with Greece? Divide et impera is a maxim of the Roman empire that worked well every time that one people let itself be divided against another. Today's emperors are the international plutocrats who reside in Frankfurt, London and New York. They have their local enforcers in Greek oligarchs and their politicians - Samaras, Papandreou and the rest.
Germans had learned modesty after the destructiveness of their Herrenrasse episode. How sad and how disturbing they seem to have unlearned.
10
What Germany failed to achieve with two World Wars it now has. European domination.
Julius Caesar said it best, "The Germans are either begging at your kness or they are at your throat."
Julius Caesar said it best, "The Germans are either begging at your kness or they are at your throat."
6
Greece is a serial offender. Greeks don't like to pay their taxes, but love socialism. It's time for Greece to go its own way.
Back at the ranch, we might need some German help. Our bankruptcy laws are Greek to me. How does a Donald Trump become wealthier by using them?
Back at the ranch, we might need some German help. Our bankruptcy laws are Greek to me. How does a Donald Trump become wealthier by using them?
8
The whole idea of what is "Europe" needs to be re-thought. You can't and should not force on people to be or behave as "German", or "Italian", or "Greek", or " Latvian". The differences are fundamental and valuable. It is not "Germany's fault" and it is not "Greece's fault." The current political, economic and ideological framework is wrong, giving too much power to technocrats, who by definition can't see farther than their noses i.e. narrow expertise. It's not going to work.
4
Well said, DC!
We New Jersians really know what we are writing about!
We New Jersians really know what we are writing about!
1
Is Mr. Cohen suggesting that financial responsibility is a potential source of instability and division in the European Union? If so, then perhaps the EU as it exists today does need to dissolve.
It seems that Portugal, Italy, Ireland,Greece and Spain have used their membership in the EU as sort of a welfare program to transfer wealth from the more financially prudent states to themselves.
The PIIGS want a German standard of living but they do not have German-like diversified economies and disciplined governance to achieve that goal on their own. So the German taxpayer is supposed to make up the difference?
Such a wealth transfer system is unsustainable in the face of the nationalism that still remains a residual force in Europe.
It seems that Portugal, Italy, Ireland,Greece and Spain have used their membership in the EU as sort of a welfare program to transfer wealth from the more financially prudent states to themselves.
The PIIGS want a German standard of living but they do not have German-like diversified economies and disciplined governance to achieve that goal on their own. So the German taxpayer is supposed to make up the difference?
Such a wealth transfer system is unsustainable in the face of the nationalism that still remains a residual force in Europe.
10
That's not only what happens when countries are united, that is what is supposed to happen. You don't see Germans currently complaining about how they have to prop up Germans in the east anymore -- they see each other as "one" in some form or fashion. No doubt that, while Germans on average are more productive, there are non-productive Germans, lazy Germans, Germans who take advantage of social welfare without contributing on a net basis, but they still get benefits and education and so on. And I would demur that PIIGS want a German standard of living. They didn't have it before and not wanting to starve isn't the same thing at all, so that's a straw man. Moreover, Spain and Ireland had LESS debt that Germany and France did in 2008 on a GDP adjusted basis, but what all these countries have in common is that their taxpayers were forced to absorb responsibility for the rash and irresponsible lending by German and French banks, in many cases lending to private parties and not the government itself (it varies by country). And then blamed by France and Germany for not wanting to kill and starve their countrymen to pay it back.
You simply cannot have a rational union if the participants do not see each other as part of a whole. It can't work.
You simply cannot have a rational union if the participants do not see each other as part of a whole. It can't work.
1
There is an analogy that we can draw between Germany's economic dominance in Europe and that of the US in the 50's and 60's. Both are due to the economic weakness of the countries they dealt with. In the case of the US, the relative reduction of its influence in the world is due to the great economic improvement of both Europe, Asia and, in some cases, Latin America. It's not so much that the US has lost its strength but that the other countries have increased theirs, thus changing the terms of the equation. When you are no longer totally dependent on another, you acquire more power and more independence. For the moment, Germany is dominant because of the relative loss of economic power of the other two major economies, France and Italy, not to say countries like Greece and Portugal. The way to diffuse German hegemony is for the other countries to get out of their economic doldrums and reacquire a greater influence in the councils of the community.
I would like to be optimistic and see the difficulties that Greece will undoubtedly experience as akin to a family struggling to repay their debts on the way to acquiring economic stability. I hope that it will turn out to be so.
I would like to be optimistic and see the difficulties that Greece will undoubtedly experience as akin to a family struggling to repay their debts on the way to acquiring economic stability. I hope that it will turn out to be so.
4
Greece has been damaged and the eurozone has been weakened under this leadership, so whether it has been an intentional amassing of power and plunder or not, I would find fault with the leadership.
17
That would be the Greek leadership then. Their problems are their own doing, from decades of overly generous social policies and huge expenditures that nobody in Greece can pay for. They got themselves into this mess. It is not Germans fault, who live with far less in terms of social guarantees, that Greece wanted to live on credit as long as it could.
2
Roger Cohen says: "German methods are good for Germans". What are these methods? It's common sense to impose austerity measures, if a country needs to bring its economy back on its feet! Britain has been successful with its austerity policy! Germany's success is based on this "protestant work ethic", immortalised by the German sociologist, Max Weber, who was influenced by the writings of Benjamin Franklin.
Roger Cohen seems to say, the Greek bailout crisis has given birth to a political monster: a German Europe. Angela Merkel is said to be the female equivalent of Otto von Bismarck, known as the "iron chancellor", by imposing German values on weaker nations, bailing out southern Europeans with their oversized public sectors, rampant tax evasion etc. Twenty years ago, Germany was in a deep recession. Its economy recovered through hard work and frugality! Today, as Europe is in a crisis, it is trying to keep it afloat.
It comes unsurprising that people in these crisis-ridden countries feel they were losers. They need to be bailed out, but they also resent the austerity policy, which deprives them of their means of livelihood and dignity. Many EU members in Eastern Europe had to live with this humiliation under Soviet rule. They were much worse off, than what Southern Europeans are going through.
Roger Cohen seems to say, the Greek bailout crisis has given birth to a political monster: a German Europe. Angela Merkel is said to be the female equivalent of Otto von Bismarck, known as the "iron chancellor", by imposing German values on weaker nations, bailing out southern Europeans with their oversized public sectors, rampant tax evasion etc. Twenty years ago, Germany was in a deep recession. Its economy recovered through hard work and frugality! Today, as Europe is in a crisis, it is trying to keep it afloat.
It comes unsurprising that people in these crisis-ridden countries feel they were losers. They need to be bailed out, but they also resent the austerity policy, which deprives them of their means of livelihood and dignity. Many EU members in Eastern Europe had to live with this humiliation under Soviet rule. They were much worse off, than what Southern Europeans are going through.
42
Actually German's recent economic success is based on the so called Hartz reforms, a package of serious reforms and austerity measures done in the early 2000's. The fact that these worked out for Germany are likely much in the back of the minds of German leaders now when approaching other economies (they have to invest German money in).
The irony is that these reforms were pushed through by the left (SPD) party of Schroeder and eventually cost Schroeder the re-election.
Conceivably this could be a deju vu -- with Tsiprsa, unwittingly, being the first Greek leader to implement measures that have teeth and produce real change in Greece that make it a self-sustaining economy -- while, at the same time, digging his own political grave.
The irony is that these reforms were pushed through by the left (SPD) party of Schroeder and eventually cost Schroeder the re-election.
Conceivably this could be a deju vu -- with Tsiprsa, unwittingly, being the first Greek leader to implement measures that have teeth and produce real change in Greece that make it a self-sustaining economy -- while, at the same time, digging his own political grave.
1
German work ethic is wonderful (I am German myself) but so was the Marshall Plan and, perhaps just as importantly, the forgiveness of nearly 50% of German debt in the early 1950s. As to Germany's recession of 20 years ago, hard work helped, but so to did the addition of a whole new market, namely the former GDR, not to mention stimulus monies (you may not be aware of the famous "solidarity tax" that every German paid for nearly 20 years and that funded growth in the East. And lest we forget the fall of the exchange rate mechanism, Germany, in post-reunification was booming, while the rest of Europe was not. The Bundesbank could not afford to lower interest rates for fear of inflation in its own economy, and so the ERM broke with devaluation first of the Pound and the Franc later. In that case, the "German method", which really was just a difference in economic conditions, ended up NOT being imposed on Europe (because of devaluation). Today, no devaluation of the drachma is possible, so the German discipline is de facto imposed on Greece.... But this is not German dominance, it is just the normal course of things with one strong player and many smaller weaker ones. Paraphrasing Churchill, talking about another once seemingly reticent strong power amongst the weak, The Germans can be counted on to do the right thing, once they have exhausted every other option. In other words, expect a debt reduction for Greece in three years' time, championed by Germany....
5
nb.: the validity of any argument is in inverse proportion to the number of exclamation marks with which it is expressed.
2
The Kaiser said, "Even if they do not love us, they will fear us." Hitler was bent on creating his New Order through war. Merkel's Germany has proved its dominance in different ways. If there is inevitability in history Germany has proved it.
19
Another thing Germans might have going for them, is willingness to study matters a bit more deeply and refrain from facile armchair historical analysis. Less reliance on History Channel, and more books I guess....
Yes, Stephen, but imagine the power of Germany today with it's pre WWI borders if had not lost two wars. Now that's really frightening!
"...for a currency union without political union is problematic..."
Yes, it's virtually self-evident in retrospect. How could this essential truism have been missed back at the adoption of the Euro? Or, if not missed, at least so wrongly discounted. Connecticut's citizens balk mildly at the flow of their tax dollars to Mississippi. But in the end, we're all Americans and we that's the higher good. Germans clearly don't feel the same about Greeks.
Yes, it's virtually self-evident in retrospect. How could this essential truism have been missed back at the adoption of the Euro? Or, if not missed, at least so wrongly discounted. Connecticut's citizens balk mildly at the flow of their tax dollars to Mississippi. But in the end, we're all Americans and we that's the higher good. Germans clearly don't feel the same about Greeks.
151
there's not much of a consensus about what entails the common good in the usa.
2
Why is this all on Germany? If everyone is so obsessed with forgiving Greece's debt, I'm sure a very mild (say, $3) from every single person claiming to be concerned would go a long way towards making Greece's debt disappear altogether.
5
3 queries arise from the article and its commenters' remarks:
1. Were Greece and the other weak countries knowlngly allowed into the EU with doctored resumes?
2. Has Germany alone benefited from such dishonesty
and from Ukraine's internal turmoil, too?
3. What's next?
1. Were Greece and the other weak countries knowlngly allowed into the EU with doctored resumes?
2. Has Germany alone benefited from such dishonesty
and from Ukraine's internal turmoil, too?
3. What's next?
1
Well summarized.
So, reading the news today, I get the feeling now peoples think it's no longer a question of economic ( can austerity help a country recover ?) but a "rancoeur" against Germany.
I personally think it's a simplification.
So, reading the news today, I get the feeling now peoples think it's no longer a question of economic ( can austerity help a country recover ?) but a "rancoeur" against Germany.
I personally think it's a simplification.
14
Roger sees the current situation as though nothing really moved forward after 1913. His analysis is as outdated, and stereotyped, as analyzing current military strategy in terms of cavalry and coal-fired battleships.
The European Union is in a messy state of integration, and that integration may indeed fail. But it is not all about Germany, the idea that the Euro was "conceived to bind Germany to Europe" fails the obvious -- where was Germany going to go otherwise?
Seeing the current economic crisis over Greece in grand psychological and Metternichtian terms is a mistake. The Greek crisis exists in its current form because european bankers went crazy, and they corrupted their governments (principally Germany) to insure loans which no sensible party would have extended. The European banking bubble and the Greek crisis went hand in hand.
There is a real irony here -- now the governments which backed the folly of the Greek debt must put the write-offs on their balance sheets. This is really what Merkel has been fighting. And the likely consequence is that the Euro must inflate a bit.
Greek improvidence and banking cupidity will achieve some reduction in austerity for the EU as a whole.
The European Union is in a messy state of integration, and that integration may indeed fail. But it is not all about Germany, the idea that the Euro was "conceived to bind Germany to Europe" fails the obvious -- where was Germany going to go otherwise?
Seeing the current economic crisis over Greece in grand psychological and Metternichtian terms is a mistake. The Greek crisis exists in its current form because european bankers went crazy, and they corrupted their governments (principally Germany) to insure loans which no sensible party would have extended. The European banking bubble and the Greek crisis went hand in hand.
There is a real irony here -- now the governments which backed the folly of the Greek debt must put the write-offs on their balance sheets. This is really what Merkel has been fighting. And the likely consequence is that the Euro must inflate a bit.
Greek improvidence and banking cupidity will achieve some reduction in austerity for the EU as a whole.
57
Without the Euro, the German export surplus with the rest of the Euro zone would be significantly reduced if not turned into a deficit. Individual currencies would enable Germany's trade partners to have exchange rates that reflect balance of payments outcomes. It is clear that if Germany has a trade surplus with other Euro zone countries, this means the others have a deficit, and the usual market clearing adjustments cannot be made. This condition creates a powerful incentive for the others to improve productivity or lower costs, especially labour costs. The sort of industrial structure that allowed Europe to prosper after WWII, is not compatible with the neo-liberal requirements implicit in a single currency area that doesn't have a fiscal or transfer union. Ultimately, either European integration becomes more intimate or the European project will fail.
5
Germany needed huge GDP growth while it fed Eastern Germans the infrastructure, investments, and safety nets Western Germans enjoyed. So Greece, Ital, and Spain were accepted as "equals" -- as customers. Rich with terrific "economics of scale", Germany built a treasury that can easily carry the debts its weaker states accepted. Only it wants not to dos o. No Marshall Plan for THEM! Germany is indeed the engine of the EU, and a hungry one, used to eating well after getting enlarged goods markets to compensate for its own costs in rebuilding East Germany. Trump would salute Germany. I don't.
7
Also, why does the fact that the Greek government itself admitted in 2010 to having severely underestimated and underrepresented its own deficit for many years not count towards anything in all these musings?
1
Our Administration's decision to "leave Europe to the Europeans" is a mistake for both the U.S. and Europe. Neither the collapse of the Soviet Union nor the end of Germany's division was the end of history. While the eurozone crisis over Greece was indeed an internal affair, the future of Europe is not. Putin's adventurism, refugee flows from unsettled crises in the Middle East, and unfinished business in the Balkans are just a few reminders of the folly of America packing up its foreign policy and going home.
9
Are you serious? Every day I read another story about how the U.S. needs to stop getting involved in the affairs of other countries. I get the distinct impression that the word "folly" is attached as a matter of course to any action or inaction by the U.S. If we had inserted ourselves into European affairs, the world would point out the "folly" of our economic imperialism (just as they now point at Germany). If we stay out of European affairs, the world would point out the "folly" of our isolationism instead. Seeing as how moral responsibility for every economic crisis ("we should've gotten involved Greece"), civil uprising ("Guatemalan violence is the result of U.S. 'folly'"), terrorist attack ("ISIS only does what they do because the U.S. provokes the Muslim community causing them to become disillusioned"), natural disaster ("the U.S. hasn't taken enough of a leadership role in climate change"), or outbreak of disease ("the U.S. is too cautious allowing people to travel too and from hot zones"), we may as well save ourselves a bunch of frustration and just do as we please.
2
Yes, US intervention is the solution, especially when it comes to nation building! I refrain from offering recent examples of brilliant success in that arena.
9
Really? Greece receives 300 BILLION in relief since 2010 from the E.U., fails to make good on any of their promises, repeatedly thumbs their noses at the E.U. --but in the end we should point our fingers at those naughty Germans and their obsession with all their silly rules? Is this is really a case of German "rigidity" meeting "a far laxer and more flexible Mediterranean culture"--or the EU finally taking to task a notoriously corrupt country that considers tax evasion a national sport? Of course the Germans are chafing at the thought of more bailout money for Greece--not because of their love of rules and throwing their weight around (as the author noted, this is a role they are still not comfortable with) but because at the end of the day, we all know which economy will be footing the bill.
135
The economy which will be footing the bill will be the public economy which bailed out its profligate private bankers who made the loans, but didn't take the haircut they should have for their excesses. It is a classic case of "private the gains, socialize the losses". The European economic powers have subsidized moral hazard (by the bankers) on a large scale, and now they don't want to take the haircut, either. In 3 years everyone will be right back where they were on Friday, at the brinksmanship table, as there is no way the Greek economy is large enough to generate the excess cash to repay these loans, even if the Greek government collects every penny of taxes owed.
6
All comments from Switzerland should come with an asterisk that advises Greece and other southern European nations that they need to establish a more wily, better class of criminal who lives off the productive economic activity of others while still managing to pretend that they exhibit financial rectitude. Clearly, Greece should (a) exit the Euro; (b) pass a rigid banking secrecy act; and (c) open itself for business to German tourists by offering to "hide" their hard earned cash and keep it "safe" from their taxing authorities. Then Greece would be Switzerland, and Switzerland could go back to making watches and fancy chocolates and toadying up to foreign skiers.
11
Austerity hasn't worked. The Greeks have such high taxes now and less income there is no way they can come up with debt payment. It's like the tickle down nonsense of the GOP.
1
What's the alternative? Greece keeps spending other people's money all day long? Greece leaves the euro? Greeks bite the bullet and figure out what it takes to be a productive self sufficient member?
42
Greece leaves the euro? Yes. Greeks bite the bullet and figure out what it takes to be a productive self sufficient member? Yes, that would be the point. It will take a devaluable currency to recover.
1
To the contrary, Germany's problems do not come from other countries but from the austerity policies it force fed Greece and other countries pushing all of Europe into deep recessions.
79
those countries clearly have a choice to not live by German rules. its a global economy, why tie yourself to the euro. clearly they see a benefit too.
3
Mr Cohen - Europe has been grappling with the question of German power since the 19th century, when the country unified under Bismarck and became the European colossus challenging other established powers (leading to the First War). Then the Second War. But surely now that Germany has become the exemplary European nation, it should not be blamed for the observance of fiscal prudence and sound governance that distinguishes it from its neighbors.
87
"But surely now that Germany has become the exemplary European nation, it should not be blamed for the observance of fiscal prudence and sound governance that distinguishes it from its neighbors."
I strongly disagree with this sentiment. The decision to create and maintain a currency union implies a degree of tolerance. Much like families, there have to be rules, or chaos ensues, but there also has to be flexibility. I think the Euro Zone has plenty of the former, but lacks the latter entirely. Eventually that will be resolved by compromise or schism. My money is on schism.
I strongly disagree with this sentiment. The decision to create and maintain a currency union implies a degree of tolerance. Much like families, there have to be rules, or chaos ensues, but there also has to be flexibility. I think the Euro Zone has plenty of the former, but lacks the latter entirely. Eventually that will be resolved by compromise or schism. My money is on schism.
If Greece could pay its own bills we could talk about tolerance and flexibility, but as long as it needs ongoing financial support, those doing the supporting have some call to set narrow boundaries.
It is your dad's "when you live in my house, you live by my rules"
It is your dad's "when you live in my house, you live by my rules"
2
Is Germany itself the vassal of Banks? During WWII the Swiss referred to Nazi Germany as the "corporate state". Why?
Pride and subservience are typically thought to be mutually exclusive, except in Germany. There is a history of vast gatherings wherein a leader demanded subservience to a great cause, and the German people yielded.
What is happening now in Europe, is the abdication of national sovereignty to banks and to the corporate state.
Pride and subservience are typically thought to be mutually exclusive, except in Germany. There is a history of vast gatherings wherein a leader demanded subservience to a great cause, and the German people yielded.
What is happening now in Europe, is the abdication of national sovereignty to banks and to the corporate state.
77
Great article. I love reading pieces and books which get at the inner workings and development of things so not only the thing itself is understood but you get an idea of trajectory to be able to more or less plot future development. This is part of the same pleasure received when listening to a decent piece of music and one solid reason why I love music so much: Essentials are presented so a more or less clear development projects into past and future.
After reading a clear presentation such as R. Cohen has presented here we can see the course Germany needs to take if Germany wants to be Germany, especially Germany at its best, Germany as music in the great classical sense. Germany of course in WW2 tried to dominate in the world and committed many crimes and mistakes in the process. The actions of Germany in WW2 were not the best of Germany let alone great German music. Now Germany has another chance--both at redemption and great German music.
The task for Germans will be difficult, and there is really no rational reason at bottom (as in economic reason, sensible and expected reason according to human behavior) why they should be expected to perform the following task, but they have to become a society of service in the best sense of the word and work hard at making the nations of Europe a coherent and capable team even though of course probably no one will be particularly grateful for all the sacrifices they make...But I ask of Germans: What else is the noble?
After reading a clear presentation such as R. Cohen has presented here we can see the course Germany needs to take if Germany wants to be Germany, especially Germany at its best, Germany as music in the great classical sense. Germany of course in WW2 tried to dominate in the world and committed many crimes and mistakes in the process. The actions of Germany in WW2 were not the best of Germany let alone great German music. Now Germany has another chance--both at redemption and great German music.
The task for Germans will be difficult, and there is really no rational reason at bottom (as in economic reason, sensible and expected reason according to human behavior) why they should be expected to perform the following task, but they have to become a society of service in the best sense of the word and work hard at making the nations of Europe a coherent and capable team even though of course probably no one will be particularly grateful for all the sacrifices they make...But I ask of Germans: What else is the noble?
2
Actually the German Question has been around since 1848 and is unchanged in it's essentials. There are some fair points in this piece (the relative decline of France) but as usual far too many doom laden Jeremiads. The Euro as poison chalice scenario is ridiculous. It's the world's second reserve currency, used daily and without problems internationally and by some 325 million people in countries with a combined GDP of about 18.5 trillion Euros. No one wants to leave it, not even the Greeks who are the source of all this agonized reflection. The Euro is an integral part of the European project. 26 of the 28 members of the EU are either members of the Eurozone or committed to join and within 10 years most if not all will be members. It's one of the cornerstones of the Maastricht treaty. The Greek situation is a bump in the road in all this convergence. There will be more but they are not going to derail the EU train. You'd never know from Cohen's comments that Germany's hardline position on Greece represented by far the majority position in the Eurogroup. Hegemons always evoke resentment in their geographic region. The US is not exactly universally popular in its hemisphere. At the end of the day it doesn't amount to much because most citizens of EU countries want to emulate Germany (rather as many in South America want to emulate the US). This is not really too hard to understand since Germany is probably the most well run large country in the world.
101
If you think the Greek situation is just a bump in the road, you haven't talked to many Greeks.
2
@ Kevin
If you think the Greeks are particularly important in all this you must have your head somewhere dark. Even Tsipras doesn't give a fig what they think since he's just accepted an infinitely worse deal (effectively receivership) than the one they resoundingly rejected on HIS recommendation just over a week ago.
If you think the Greeks are particularly important in all this you must have your head somewhere dark. Even Tsipras doesn't give a fig what they think since he's just accepted an infinitely worse deal (effectively receivership) than the one they resoundingly rejected on HIS recommendation just over a week ago.
3
Germany's hardline position on Greece represented by far the *majority position in the Eurogroup*
*an argumentum ad populum (Latin for "appeal to the people") is a fallacious argument that concludes that a proposition is true because many or most people believe it: "If many believe so, it is so."*
The reverse is not always true of course, but the everybody does it argument is always a losing argument.
*an argumentum ad populum (Latin for "appeal to the people") is a fallacious argument that concludes that a proposition is true because many or most people believe it: "If many believe so, it is so."*
The reverse is not always true of course, but the everybody does it argument is always a losing argument.