Of course, if they'd been married and had a second income, they probably wouldn't have qualified for any subsidy at all. IRS may have eliminated the marriage penalty from the tax code, but it is alive and well in programs like these. ACA subsidies, food stamps, section 8, EITC - all phase out steeply as income rises. Put them all together and it's practically a government mandate for single parenthood.
6
"To sharpen the prod, the government has also cut subsidies for those who do not go."
Sharpening the prod? Seriously, like poor people are cattle or something?
Why prod them out? Are there others waiting in the wings to redevelop the neighborhood for profits?
Sharpening the prod? Seriously, like poor people are cattle or something?
Why prod them out? Are there others waiting in the wings to redevelop the neighborhood for profits?
2
It makes sense that if you give people more money they'll spend it. But wouldn't it be better to allow them to choose what's more important in their lives? Be that food, medication or housing? Obviously if you're going to force the to spend it on housing that's what will happen but is that the right choice when you don't know the situation?
There is nothing magic about a zip code and you can't just parachute people into the middle of one and expect change. The zip code is about the people who have come to live there--their education, work, values, and how they spend discretionary income to achieve and maintain their lifestyle. When a poor child in a better off neighborhood can't afford sports camp, or to go out for pizza, etc., it just makes the difference between haves and have not more painfully obvious. If you want to improve poor neighborhoods, you need to provide stable jobs to stabilize families, as stabilized families raise stable kids.
13
Why not start in Scarsdale? Nick Kristof has expressed his desire for more diversity. I am sure that someone with as much social capital as Nick would be thrilled to lead the movement to open his suburb to victims of poor neighborhoods who have earned housing vouchers.
23
The article says "that the overall cost of the program did not increase." How can that be true if people are being given larger vouchers to live in more expensive areas? Are fewer vouchers being given?
9
Should anyone need example of a community treated to diversity Section 8 vouchers provide, you need look no farther than Ferguson, just last year media's Most Important Place on Earth. In 1990, Ferguson's population was one quarter black; now African Americans number 67 percent of residents, most of it Section 8 "urban removal" from St. Louis. This allows blighted cities to freshen themselves up with gentrification, and of course, higher property values. Game of buying slum property cheap and then moving out its population in urban renewal and voucher schemes is an old and profitable one. Property values in San Francisco's Western Addition, once a sprawling black community, now post annual assessment increases of 12 percent. Section 8 homesteading doesn't fare as well. Ferguson property values dropped almost 50 percent since the sacred riots there last fall.
11
My former neighborhood was a favorite stomping ground for various nonprofits looking to move people from the city and lift them out of poverty. They'd come to our neighborhood association meetings and talk about all the support they'd give these new transplants - financial education, home maintenance classes, childcare assistance, etc. They also promised that all candidates would be highly vetted.
And yet, what did we get? House after house filled with trouble makers. If not the renters themselves, then the extended family, who had no problem dealing drugs, shooting off guns and basically bringing their ghetto behaviors with them.
In my experience, programs like this are often noble in theory but very flawed in practice. Even when the renters are quality people, they're being thrown into a totally new environment with minimal support and guidance, and they're surrounded by people with whom they have almost nothing in common.
And yet, what did we get? House after house filled with trouble makers. If not the renters themselves, then the extended family, who had no problem dealing drugs, shooting off guns and basically bringing their ghetto behaviors with them.
In my experience, programs like this are often noble in theory but very flawed in practice. Even when the renters are quality people, they're being thrown into a totally new environment with minimal support and guidance, and they're surrounded by people with whom they have almost nothing in common.
27
did the nonprofits do anything to fix the problem after they brought it to your neighborhood, after all they obviously failed up to the "vetting" part?
3
Sadly, no. Even after it was brought to their attention, they did nothing. I guess the funding ran out.
Here is the problem that I have with the facts in this article. My experience is, that an apartment in Boston, ext. $2500, with or without HUD's help costs more than it does in the not very exciting suburbs. In some of the small towns in MA where the normal people live they pay with their own money half of what HUD pays for someone to live in Boston in a segregated area. So now they idea is that they can have more money and move to a town where the rent is $3000 per month? Why not tell them to go rent where its $850 and the taxpayer is left out of the mix?
Why should all these people get $1800 for rent somewhere expensive, when they can live in a small town in nowheres ville, without government help?
Why should all these people get $1800 for rent somewhere expensive, when they can live in a small town in nowheres ville, without government help?
17
Saundra: while your suggestion is not only sound, but also logical, it defies what HUD wants to do -- and that is to integrate the country, perhaps artificially, by making these vouchers available. I live in Westchester County NY, where there is now an edict that all towns have "affordable housing." I don't know what that means in dollar terms, but I know that everyone's responsible now, for creating some percentage of new housing at some dollar value.
the point is, really, that people tend to live with those they have some common interests, economics, etc., and so this is all a "force feed". There's something to be said for, "Birds of a feather flock together." Well, you get the drift.
the point is, really, that people tend to live with those they have some common interests, economics, etc., and so this is all a "force feed". There's something to be said for, "Birds of a feather flock together." Well, you get the drift.
10
The nicest house for someone receiving housing subsidy from the government, should never, NEVER be nicer than the worst house owned/rented by a worker who does not receive a subsidy.
27
Let's check back with Ms. Moore in a few years and see how things are going. Only time will tell and I suspect this story has more to come.
16
The policy of settling ghetto residents in market rate housing with the help of vouchers is obviously just what's needed. Public housing, which has meant concentrated poverty and racial segregation has been a disaster. People who live in such places frequently think of themselves as inmates rather than residents. They and their children are hostage to violent, sociopathic police and criminals. In fact, in these situations, frequently, the only difference between the criminals and the police is that the police wear uniforms. The vouchers give a small minority of public housing 'inmates' the option of more normal living conditions. This policy needs to be expanded.
1
Stating that landlords who do not take vouchers discriminate is factually incorrect. The DHA voucher program (Section 8) comes with numerous additional costs for property owners as well as fewer protections. DHA demands a special deal under their terms. DHA is also one of the worst run programs in the country with long delays in payments and mandatory inspections. If HUD fixed Section 8 there would be more property owners who would participate in what has always been a voluntary program.
13
A huge problem is that HUD pays it's portion to the landlord, but the renter gets the money from the EBT, and never pays the landlord, and it takes years to evict them and you will never get that cash back. In MA they have to go to the motels when they don't pay their landlord, and "practice" paying rent until a new apartment is found and they lather and repeat the process. In the meantime, the children have to be bussed at taxpayer expense to the school in the hometown the family did not pay rent in.
13
... and what about the middle income families that can't afford to move to the affluent neighborhood ?
16
In this particular case, middle-income families can *already* afford to move to Frisco, the Dallas suburb to which the White family relocated. Frisco has a handful of "affluent" areas -- which I put in quotes because the cost of a house in such neighborhoods is less than one would pay for a 1BR apartment in an outlying area of Manhattan such as Inwood -- but is by and large solidly middle-class, with single-family homes starting at around $150,000.
Jeff K, thank you for not answering the question. $150,000 in Texas, unlike NY, is a lot of money.
3
What an excellent idea! Let's destroy good middle class neighborhoods. Too bad about the hard working middle class people who struggle to pay mortgages and taxes. Too bad that their property values are going to plummet when this element moves in and destroys everything they have worked for. Just too bad about that. Not only does the middle class have to endure this, they have the honor of paying outrageous taxes to support it. The super rich (aka super liberals) won't care because the high cost of housing in their neck of the woods won't put them anywhere near them. I doubt very much that any of these folks will be moving to Hillary's neighborhood. If these people want to live in a better neighborhood, let them work for it like everyone else. Why bother to work at all when the government will hand you a cushy living?
15
"Too bad about the hard working middle class people who struggle to pay mortgages and taxes."
Actually, these type of relocations have been done numerous times in the past -- with NO discernible effect on crime or any other deleterious externalities.
"Too bad that their property values are going to plummet when this element moves in"
This "element"? One of the families highlighted has a head-of-household who works as a mortgage officer for Bank of America. Do you have a problem with BofA employees? Or is the "element" you're concerned about have more to do with skin color? (NB: Your statement above is almost identical to what certain "elements" -- and, to be clear, I mean white bigots -- claimed back in the '60s and '70s when persons of color started moving into "traditionally white" neighborhoods. There was even a TV show about the phenomenon lampooning the irrational fears of existing residents that their neighborhood would denigrate into a crime den. Perhaps you've heard of it: "All in the Family."
Actually, these type of relocations have been done numerous times in the past -- with NO discernible effect on crime or any other deleterious externalities.
"Too bad that their property values are going to plummet when this element moves in"
This "element"? One of the families highlighted has a head-of-household who works as a mortgage officer for Bank of America. Do you have a problem with BofA employees? Or is the "element" you're concerned about have more to do with skin color? (NB: Your statement above is almost identical to what certain "elements" -- and, to be clear, I mean white bigots -- claimed back in the '60s and '70s when persons of color started moving into "traditionally white" neighborhoods. There was even a TV show about the phenomenon lampooning the irrational fears of existing residents that their neighborhood would denigrate into a crime den. Perhaps you've heard of it: "All in the Family."
2
I wouldn't consider the Koch brothers, Adelson, etc. as liberals in any universe. You're flying your biases loud and proud.
This is not true. In some cases there have been serious ill effects. The Atlantic magazine had an article about a city very adversely affected by many murders. The article is "American Murder Mystery" in the July/August 2008 issue.
http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2008/07/american-murder-myst...
http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2008/07/american-murder-myst...
4
While I'm pleased for Mis White'schildren, I can't help but think we didn't hear enough about the other half of the story - what about those whose subsidies were reduced and had to pay more in rent?
8
I have mixed feelings about this program and other social engineering ventures like it. We worked all our lives to be able to afford where we live now, and as we are on a modest fixed income, an $1800 subsidy would certainly help a lot. It would have helped even more when our kids were growing up.
At one point we lived in a lovely townhouse development in Northern Virginia that accepted Section 8 vouchers. We didn't last long. The difference in cultures, particularly noise tolerance and the constant coming and going of friends and relatives who visited often and at all hours (and did assorted drug deals in the cul-de-sacs) drove us out.
What about working on the inner-city neighborhoods, with programs like Geoffrey Canada's, to change neighborhoods? The money being devoted to the program described here could benefit a far greater number of people if used that way. Real culture change only happens from the inside, and it sounds like the fortunate few who participate in this program are looking for that.
At one point we lived in a lovely townhouse development in Northern Virginia that accepted Section 8 vouchers. We didn't last long. The difference in cultures, particularly noise tolerance and the constant coming and going of friends and relatives who visited often and at all hours (and did assorted drug deals in the cul-de-sacs) drove us out.
What about working on the inner-city neighborhoods, with programs like Geoffrey Canada's, to change neighborhoods? The money being devoted to the program described here could benefit a far greater number of people if used that way. Real culture change only happens from the inside, and it sounds like the fortunate few who participate in this program are looking for that.
43
I lived in a brand new apartment complex in Arlington, VA. As per their development deal with the county, the developers had to set-aside a certain percentage of units for low-income housing (maybe 10%, I'm not sure). I got to pay $1800 a month for my one-bedroom. I found out later the people on the left and right were paying $900 for the exact same unit. Additionally, I had to pay for parking in the building. The low-income residents got it for free. I had to pay to use the pool. The low-income residents got it for free. I can't say they were nosier or created any more problems than the market-rate tenants, because that part of it wasn't a problem. But from my vantage point it felt fundamentally unfair - I was killing myself working 50-60 hours a week to pay-off enormous law school loan debt, and my tax dollars were being used to subsidize people to live in the exact same place I was (which I could barely afford). It just felt fundamentally unfair on multiple levels, and it left me feeling a bit bitter. What's the incentive to struggle and strive to better yourself in life, if the government is going to take your money to subsidize other people to live in the same manner you are?
28
In this article you include a statement from the local administrator:
"But Ms. Russ said there were some unexpected problems. Officials predicted that cutting subsidies would force landlords in lower-income areas to cut rents. Instead, many of those landlords required subsidized tenants to pay more out of their own pockets. And moving has proved difficult for many tenants. Some are elderly, disabled or so poor that they have no savings for a security deposit."
I am disappointed that you did not point out the impact of HUD rules in these instances. My understanding is that under HUD regulations when the rent of a unit that the tenant has been occupying increases above the payment standard the tenant is responsible for the entire amount above the standard. When a voucher holder moves into a new apartment the tenant cannot be required to pay more than 40% of income as the family share of rent and the standard formula when unit rents are at or below the payment standard is 30% of family income as their rental share. So far as I can find out there is no upper limit under HUD rules for the family share of rent. If the rent is raised so far above the payment standard that the family share is 100% or even more of their income that seems allowed under HUD regulations.
"But Ms. Russ said there were some unexpected problems. Officials predicted that cutting subsidies would force landlords in lower-income areas to cut rents. Instead, many of those landlords required subsidized tenants to pay more out of their own pockets. And moving has proved difficult for many tenants. Some are elderly, disabled or so poor that they have no savings for a security deposit."
I am disappointed that you did not point out the impact of HUD rules in these instances. My understanding is that under HUD regulations when the rent of a unit that the tenant has been occupying increases above the payment standard the tenant is responsible for the entire amount above the standard. When a voucher holder moves into a new apartment the tenant cannot be required to pay more than 40% of income as the family share of rent and the standard formula when unit rents are at or below the payment standard is 30% of family income as their rental share. So far as I can find out there is no upper limit under HUD rules for the family share of rent. If the rent is raised so far above the payment standard that the family share is 100% or even more of their income that seems allowed under HUD regulations.
2
For a family of 4, 1 adults, 3 children look at the numbers:
Housing - $1,840 X 12 = $22,080.
Medicaid - $4,500 x 1 + $2,500 x 3 = $12,000
Food Stamps - $600 X 12 = $7,200.
Tax rebate - $3,500
School breakfast and lunches - $1,200 X 2 = $2,400
Total $47,260
That is more than the average family US income, all tax free and not counted as income.
If the adult actually works, even at $10 an hour, there is another $10X40X52= $20,400.
Now it is $77,660 tax free.
Got the picture yet!
Housing - $1,840 X 12 = $22,080.
Medicaid - $4,500 x 1 + $2,500 x 3 = $12,000
Food Stamps - $600 X 12 = $7,200.
Tax rebate - $3,500
School breakfast and lunches - $1,200 X 2 = $2,400
Total $47,260
That is more than the average family US income, all tax free and not counted as income.
If the adult actually works, even at $10 an hour, there is another $10X40X52= $20,400.
Now it is $77,660 tax free.
Got the picture yet!
19
I beg your pardon but you missed something here. When the adult works for $10/hr, they become too wealthy to recieve any of the subsidies that you have listed. Many adults who recieve government benefits to live on would love to work to make a little exta money. If they do, they are likely to end up homeless and without medical care. If they don't, they remain stuck on benefits that nobody can realistically live on with no hope of ever changing anything. If they work off the books to try to survive, prison is a distinct possibility and disenfanchisement is inevitable. I have to question your figures on housing as well. NY state housing allowance is about $240/month. Good luck finding a place in NY (or anywhere in the U.S.) for that price! Walk in someone else's shoes for a little while, and remember that those are the only shoes that person is ever likely to have regardless of how worn they are. There is no hope for a better pair in the future because you will never be allowed to earn the money to buy them as long as you get government assistance and you need that assistance to survive because it is simply not possible to live on minimum wage which has not even made an attempt to keep up with the cost of living (if it did, it would be in the $25/hr range).
3
Wrong. If the adult works and the income is raised over a certain amount, their SNAP benefits will be reduced, the children might be switched to CHIP which requires monthly premiums and higher copays. And if they work, which the majority of families do, they are paying taxes. The first total in your comment is also the amount paid to house criminals in prison. The ROI for that money invested in families, better housing and better schools is high, and the ROI on housing criminals is nil or negative. Which do you prefer?
You simply don't know what you are talking about.
The qualification for most of these programs is earnings below the poverty level. The poverty level for a single is $17,000. The poverty level for a family of 4 is $28,000. The poverty level for the lady with 3 children has to be above the the $20,400, $10 an hour.
Actually, the income level to be eligible for Medicaid under Obamacare is now 1.3 times the poverty level. That's right $36,400.
NY state has numerous housing programs. Section 8 pays all above 30% of family income up to a cap. For some programs, eligibility is income below 80% of the area medium. Your $240 is either per person or for one of the numerous programs.
NY states Medicaid average cost is $17,500 per person compared to a national average of $6,000. The feds pay about $7,000 of the total.
All the figures I used are federal and state government generated. Again, you simply don't have a clue. Don't take my word for it. Look it up on the internet.
The qualification for most of these programs is earnings below the poverty level. The poverty level for a single is $17,000. The poverty level for a family of 4 is $28,000. The poverty level for the lady with 3 children has to be above the the $20,400, $10 an hour.
Actually, the income level to be eligible for Medicaid under Obamacare is now 1.3 times the poverty level. That's right $36,400.
NY state has numerous housing programs. Section 8 pays all above 30% of family income up to a cap. For some programs, eligibility is income below 80% of the area medium. Your $240 is either per person or for one of the numerous programs.
NY states Medicaid average cost is $17,500 per person compared to a national average of $6,000. The feds pay about $7,000 of the total.
All the figures I used are federal and state government generated. Again, you simply don't have a clue. Don't take my word for it. Look it up on the internet.
So many exalted “taxpayers” are "tired of being pushed to the back of the line", "tired of footing the bill", tired of this, tired of that. Sometimes it sounds like these people never get any sleep at all they are so tired all the time.
So, what do they want? Do they want a Section 8 voucher so they can live in public housing? Do they want to stand in line to sign up for food stamps and welfare? Do they want to be on the receiving end of the withering looks and unkind comments directed at them? Do they want to pick their children's new school clothes from the Salvation Army store?
Well, here's a news flash-- poor people pay taxes, too. That's right. They are just like you grand and noble "taxpayers". Only they pay taxes while supporting a family on 2 or even 3 minimum wage jobs. Do that and see how tired you are.
The poor, tired, "taxpayers" whine all day about what they don't have. These people need a lesson in being grateful and appreciating what they have, instead of blaming other people because they don't have as much.
I think it's great if people get a chance to move out of bad neighborhoods and into good ones. I see no problem with it, and why shouldn’t they? And, if they move next door to one of the tired “taxpayers”, so much the better.
So, what do they want? Do they want a Section 8 voucher so they can live in public housing? Do they want to stand in line to sign up for food stamps and welfare? Do they want to be on the receiving end of the withering looks and unkind comments directed at them? Do they want to pick their children's new school clothes from the Salvation Army store?
Well, here's a news flash-- poor people pay taxes, too. That's right. They are just like you grand and noble "taxpayers". Only they pay taxes while supporting a family on 2 or even 3 minimum wage jobs. Do that and see how tired you are.
The poor, tired, "taxpayers" whine all day about what they don't have. These people need a lesson in being grateful and appreciating what they have, instead of blaming other people because they don't have as much.
I think it's great if people get a chance to move out of bad neighborhoods and into good ones. I see no problem with it, and why shouldn’t they? And, if they move next door to one of the tired “taxpayers”, so much the better.
3
Don't have 4 kids with a missing daddy if you can't afford it. Is that difficult, or is common sense a privilege not afforded to the poor?
20
yes, those who have worked to build equity in their homes and have decent schools should all see it flushed into the toilet because they are "tired". Can you guarantee they do not destroy the neighborhoods? This is what the residents, justibiably, ask.
14
Your comment is a huge non sequitir. Just because I'm "tired" of paying other people's bills after they've made bad life decisions doesn't mean that I'm not grateful for my own success.
8
Can I please have a voucher so that my "deprived" family can move from Westchester to a penthouse in Manhattan, overlooking Central Park of course.
With all the handouts (Welfare, Medicaid, Food Stamps, Rent Vouchers, ...) given by the Government these days it seems it "pays to be poor".
With all the handouts (Welfare, Medicaid, Food Stamps, Rent Vouchers, ...) given by the Government these days it seems it "pays to be poor".
18
Not mentioned in the article -- but absolutely a valid corollary to it -- is the fact that youths raised in poor neighborhoods (either public housing projects or "Section 8 ghettos") have a wildly disproportionate propensity to end up in a life of crime versus even "less poor" children, let alone kids who live out in the suburbs. In a similar vein, ample research supports the premise that ex-cons who simply return to their former neighborhoods and associates are many times more likely to head straight back into lives of crimes.
I suspect few people think of Dallas as a "progressive" place by any definition, but in this particular context they are exceptionally so. Removing families from crime-ridden neighborhoods -- and, importantly, cutting themselves off from former associates in those neighborhoods, as the article indicates Ms. White did (by simply changing her phone number) -- is likely THE most effective means of keeping today's children from becoming tomorrow's felons.
I suspect few people think of Dallas as a "progressive" place by any definition, but in this particular context they are exceptionally so. Removing families from crime-ridden neighborhoods -- and, importantly, cutting themselves off from former associates in those neighborhoods, as the article indicates Ms. White did (by simply changing her phone number) -- is likely THE most effective means of keeping today's children from becoming tomorrow's felons.
7
The most effective way to reduce the number of young felons is to prevent the births of those who would be most likely to become felons. Births to single young women, who then go on all forms of welfare, need to be greatly reduced or eliminated. An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.
One way to greatly reduce these out of wedlock births to poor, uneducated women is to remove the perverse incentives that now exist. Tell all women, of any age, that if they have a child, they are responsible for raising that child. There will be no welfare check, no food stamps, no Medicaid, no WIC and no free housing. They should be told that abortion will be free, but if they decide to have the child, they will get no assistance from the taxpayer.
One way to greatly reduce these out of wedlock births to poor, uneducated women is to remove the perverse incentives that now exist. Tell all women, of any age, that if they have a child, they are responsible for raising that child. There will be no welfare check, no food stamps, no Medicaid, no WIC and no free housing. They should be told that abortion will be free, but if they decide to have the child, they will get no assistance from the taxpayer.
16
The working classes already resent subsidized housing for the underclass to live in housing projects, how well do you think they will embrace subsidies designed to allow the underclass to live in better neighborhoods than they do? All that these voucher programs will ever achieve will be the eventual end of housing subsidies. And yet this newspaper's readership is at a loss to figure out why the workers don't support the Democrats as strongly as they used to.
14
They resent the underclass because they perceive it as being comprised entirely by blacks, therefore they deserve nothing (their opinion, not mine). That is also the reason the white working class has gone Republican. In their minds, the poor things think that the GOP will help them, and the Democrats only care about helping the moochers. The joke is on them.
2
Agreed, S. If there were a socially liberal Republican or Libertarian 2016 presidential candidate, I'd consider voting for her/him.
3
lived there 5 moths and her kid's only friends are the other welfare family. Sounds like this is going to go well.
8
"The Obama administration has taken a deep interest in the research of the Harvard economist Raj Chetty, who has shown that where children grow up shapes their prospects as an adult..."
It is not even remotely possible to show anything more than a correlation between where children are reared and their prospects as adults. For one, there are too many other independent variables at play. But mostly, it is because correlation is not causation. To show causation, correlation is minimally necessary, but that's as far as it goes. And even if there is a causative link established, it says nothing of which direction the causation runs. It may very well be that having poor adult prospects is an attribute shared by people in certain areas. Take them out of the area, and they still would have poor prospects as adults. And as the people who leave the area under this program self-select in doing so, it may also be that they were of the sort whose adult prospects would not have been poor, and would have left anyway.
But there's seemingly no bottom to the well of Progressive belief in environmental determinism. The notion conveniently dovetails with the Progressive impulse to social engineering. But mankind are not a blank slate. The life trajectory of individuals can not be solely determined by the intervention of well-meaning Progressive idealists.
It is not even remotely possible to show anything more than a correlation between where children are reared and their prospects as adults. For one, there are too many other independent variables at play. But mostly, it is because correlation is not causation. To show causation, correlation is minimally necessary, but that's as far as it goes. And even if there is a causative link established, it says nothing of which direction the causation runs. It may very well be that having poor adult prospects is an attribute shared by people in certain areas. Take them out of the area, and they still would have poor prospects as adults. And as the people who leave the area under this program self-select in doing so, it may also be that they were of the sort whose adult prospects would not have been poor, and would have left anyway.
But there's seemingly no bottom to the well of Progressive belief in environmental determinism. The notion conveniently dovetails with the Progressive impulse to social engineering. But mankind are not a blank slate. The life trajectory of individuals can not be solely determined by the intervention of well-meaning Progressive idealists.
16
The life trajectory of individuals cannot be solely determined by the hostility of ill-meaning Conservative idealists.
2
That quote is about children, not adults. It starts with the schools and the inadequate education they get, and the inadequate resources in that school. Visit one of those schools one day. I have. I was horrified at the teachers' attitudes toward their grade school students and angry at the inadequate facilities and crowded conditions. I could not believe that in this country, there weren't enough books to go around, and those that were available were in bad shape from being used year after year. It took me days to get over the depression that visit caused. Living in chaotic and dangerous neighborhoods has all kinds of negative effects in children, so by time they are adults, all hope has been extinguished.
2
Efforts like this will inevitably produce counter efforts. Let's be real - one of the benefits of being wealthy is that you can avoid being around the problems of the poor (not the poor, the problems of the poor). The government can move people around, but it can't make others stay. Sprawl will intensify, support for public schools in wealthy towns will crumble as people will pay up for private schools, and private clubs will flourish.
9
Free housing, free Medical care, free schooling, free food, free heating, free phones, only thing left is free car since that is still the only thing they are paying for. Middle class voters can now get a first-hand view where their tax dollars are going, to their new neighbors.
15
This is a very good example of how we work to turn people against each other. Tax the working poor to the brink, give a little to the extremely poor, tell the working class and middle class that this is who is taking their money and ignoring the unbelievable amount of our taxes that go to wars for the profit of a few rich people. As long as the super rich can continue to pit us against one another, (to their great amusement) this will continue. If the wealthy paid their fair share of taxes, the middle and working classes might have a chance. But it's easier to blame it on the poor. When choosing a whipping post, it is a matter of course to choose someone who can't fight back.
6
There is little doubt that people's life chances improve with a move to a better place. However, rhere are also concerns. As the article points out, older children, particularly boys, often have difficulty with the transition. As the landlord from a Boston suburb notes, boys moved to his building on the voucher program have repeatedly been in trouble with the law and school authorities. But in general, being surrounded by success-oriented peers tends to reduce the dragging down effect of being around teens with negative attitudes towards academic achievement, as in many low-income areas. One note, though. Look at the photo of South Dallas in the story. Driveways, garages, big cars and what looks like relatively new construction. Is this area really so bad?
9
May this program become widespread throughout the US. We need the bad areas of urban US cities to be emptied and their residents to be moved to middle and upper class suburbs (and other areas). Only then can the US prosper!
What do the middle and upper middle class suburban and other areas have to fear from such a program? Their lives will be enriched by having these residents become their neighbors. Let it become so immediately!!!!
What do the middle and upper middle class suburban and other areas have to fear from such a program? Their lives will be enriched by having these residents become their neighbors. Let it become so immediately!!!!
4
There is a limited amount of land in the U.S. - you want to move all the people from Balitmore, St. Louis and Chicago to the suburbs? What then happens to the current low class areas? More Detroits with burned out houses, empty lots and rotting waste land?
Then what happens to the suburbs? Oh yea, the whites will eventually leave, gentrify the rotting waste land and the blacks will follow them back into the cities as part of yet another gov't program.
Its an endless, useless cycle.
Then what happens to the suburbs? Oh yea, the whites will eventually leave, gentrify the rotting waste land and the blacks will follow them back into the cities as part of yet another gov't program.
Its an endless, useless cycle.
6
I think there may be a touch of sarcasm here...I think.
3
As a very small landlord, very small, with no other pension, I will never rent to another Section 8 tenant. It was a negative experience all round, the pit bull given its own bedroom was a nice touch.
20
Ah vouchers give these poor people an opportunity,, Why not help everyone. School vouchers will help parents out of failing schools, Stop the teachers unions for continuing bad schools. Let everyone benefit from vouchers.
2
let's see how the neighbors feel after these people move in next door.
In this entire article not one mention of the challenges of NIMBYism. Even if the perception that crime will increase and rent-subsidized houses are maintained poorly is not completely accurate, it does have an impact on property values. Few things make a home price plummet or a prospective buyer bolt than finding out that "your neighbor is section 8".
10
Social Capital needs to be taken into account as a major contributor to the success of an individual. If being around successful people breeds success, then the opposite is also true. That being said, there are areas within cities that are in transition (social - economically) in which transition can be accelerated by a tax on vacant properties. I would suggest a substantial tax that would get the owners to either renovate the property or put it for sale. In that way, I would think you could create the opposite of white flight. Finally we should be frank about race. There is a large discrepancy between the resources spent in black neighborhoods and white neighborhoods.
2
What you are is nothing. What others think you are everything. Don't call that hypocrisy.
all the distortions of the market present in a market/voucher approach. The neighborhood is taken as a parameter rather than a product itself of social production. There are absolutely neighborhood determinants of economic and social outcomes, but the generation of stable neighborhoods with high quality schools and a reenforcing built environment is a reflection of stable jobs, vitality of the public purse (itself a reflection of high wages), and mild gradients of income inequality. The market/voucher approach ignores social production therein reflected and focuses strictly on individual incentives; it is a simple vestige of Jack Kemp economics. It does not challenge the strong prevailing winds of change of the elevation of the private sector distortions in our political economy, but simply reinforces it. Bask in the few success stories.
The configuration of the country is one where struggling middle class clearly sees the deterioration of infrastructure, including crumbling schools in once strong middle class neighborhoods, and you can readily see the resentments bred in the top comments by readers on this page, railing against "breeding" parents, "misbehaving children," "undeserving poor", etc., etc. This policy is part of a Koch brothers paradise. Chetty et al. feed the Tea Party's angst. And, these policies will ultimately slip away as did Kemp's earlier manifestation of "compassionate conservatism". Neoliberalism reigns.
The configuration of the country is one where struggling middle class clearly sees the deterioration of infrastructure, including crumbling schools in once strong middle class neighborhoods, and you can readily see the resentments bred in the top comments by readers on this page, railing against "breeding" parents, "misbehaving children," "undeserving poor", etc., etc. This policy is part of a Koch brothers paradise. Chetty et al. feed the Tea Party's angst. And, these policies will ultimately slip away as did Kemp's earlier manifestation of "compassionate conservatism". Neoliberalism reigns.
3
finally! it's not rocket science to comprehend that it is really terrible public policy to cram poor people, mostly of one ethnic group, into housing projects. this type of "put them in a reservation" policy was and remains racially motivated. it is common sense to disperse these people among the general population and into better schools and a safer environment. Vouchers are the answer!
2
If you have a job and not a ton of children from different fathers, you will have the money to move in any neighborhood you want.
1. Get a job.
2. Don't have a ton of kids.
See, how easy that was?
1. Get a job.
2. Don't have a ton of kids.
See, how easy that was?
5
And have a husband who sticks around you forgot to add. This is pretty important.
2
Critical factor is which mothers move.
Dope addicts and criminals don't.
Dope addicts and criminals don't.
3
There is a family on my block that came from a nearby impoverished city. Apparently they were gifted the home on our block by a relative who was a professional athlete. Unfortunately this family has brought their problems with them (felony armed robbery convictions, several children out of wedlock, etc) and they have been a source of headache for the other residents on my block. I had to put two security cameras outside of my home after my car was vandalized with $2k worth of damage. They have been on our block for over 20 years (long before my arrival) but the cycle has continued.
However, I do see the validity of moving SOME families out of bad areas, but it should be done on a selective basis. Perhaps families with an employed parent and children that do well in school with good attendance should be moved to the top of the list as that is likely a reflection of involved parenting. Families with criminal convictions and troubled children are likely to continue to have problems regardless of their location.
However, I do see the validity of moving SOME families out of bad areas, but it should be done on a selective basis. Perhaps families with an employed parent and children that do well in school with good attendance should be moved to the top of the list as that is likely a reflection of involved parenting. Families with criminal convictions and troubled children are likely to continue to have problems regardless of their location.
18
why should a family responsible for vandalizing property not have a right to be there. This sounds racist.
To Yoda - did I even make refernce to their race? They could be white, black, Asian, Latino - whatever. The improverished area they moved from could be a trailer park or the projects. Race is not important. They're horrible neighbors and moving to a better area did not improve things for the second generation of this family - that's all you need to know.
Look at all the coded and not so coded racist language and assumptions in the comments.
"Rewarding people who breeding out of control"
"Wealthy areas can only absorb so many low-income families before they start to resemble the areas the low-income families left."
The implication is that something is inherently and morally wrong with Black people and that if the gov't creates policies that get them out of the de facto reservations they were forced into over the last hundred years, the segregated suburban dream will be destroyed.
Well, guess what?
"There's nothing wrong with Black people that the end of White Supremacy can't fix."
Black people did not choose to live in neighborhoods of underfunded schools, hours away from centers of commerce and white collar careers. No one wants to embrace the fact that while the suburbs were being created and bestowing significant amounts of generational wealth on white people, Blacks were denied those same FHA govt loans, threatened with violence or redlined out of the picture.
Did Black taxpayers who were denied the fruit of this gov't policy complain about whites breeding out of control with their 3 family homes, subsidized by the gov't?
Check your assumptions, open a history book and get some perspective. The information is there if you want it.
"Rewarding people who breeding out of control"
"Wealthy areas can only absorb so many low-income families before they start to resemble the areas the low-income families left."
The implication is that something is inherently and morally wrong with Black people and that if the gov't creates policies that get them out of the de facto reservations they were forced into over the last hundred years, the segregated suburban dream will be destroyed.
Well, guess what?
"There's nothing wrong with Black people that the end of White Supremacy can't fix."
Black people did not choose to live in neighborhoods of underfunded schools, hours away from centers of commerce and white collar careers. No one wants to embrace the fact that while the suburbs were being created and bestowing significant amounts of generational wealth on white people, Blacks were denied those same FHA govt loans, threatened with violence or redlined out of the picture.
Did Black taxpayers who were denied the fruit of this gov't policy complain about whites breeding out of control with their 3 family homes, subsidized by the gov't?
Check your assumptions, open a history book and get some perspective. The information is there if you want it.
26
"Rewarding people who breeding out of control"
so a "mother" who has 4 children by 3 different men is NOT breeding out of control?
"Wealthy areas can only absorb so many low-income families before they start to resemble the areas the low-income families left."
so if the suburbs are turned into ghettos through migration they are not destroyed?
what fantasy planet do you live on?
so a "mother" who has 4 children by 3 different men is NOT breeding out of control?
"Wealthy areas can only absorb so many low-income families before they start to resemble the areas the low-income families left."
so if the suburbs are turned into ghettos through migration they are not destroyed?
what fantasy planet do you live on?
3
So they had multiple children they could not afford at gunpoint? I have been through college, law school, and an LLM program and never heard this before.
Sounds quite interesting and like good grounds for a substantial number of lawsuits.
Sounds quite interesting and like good grounds for a substantial number of lawsuits.
1
Let's take it step further and place these families in gated communites, domiciled by political elites who dictate to hard-working middle-class families struggling to stay afloat in a failing economy that a woman who has made a profession at living at the govenment welfare trough has a right to live next door in yet another failed attempt at social experimenation.
17
Augmented housing vouchers are one tool to use to offer some families a way out of entrenched poverty. Yesterday's NYT article on significant lowering of teenage and unwanted preganancy through access to long-term contraception is another tool that is proving effective. What both have in common is in giving poor people easier access to life-choices the more affluent take for granted.
Zip codes seem to be a stand-in for community, and I was disappointed the author doesn't more fully discuss the social ties that surround this issue. The cycle of poverty is sustained by strong social ties, for good and for ill, to communities beleagured by crime and poor living conditions. Those that leave benefit not from a geographic change so much as a change in the nature of the communities in which they live. As one recipient says in her new community "people really care" about her children in shc. But I wonder how successful this experiment is long term if, as is intimated in this article, the families that move cannot establish social ties in their new zip code.
I would be happy for my hard earned tax dollars to go to help support a family like this in my neighborhood, and would hate to live among neighbors who feel that these families are receiving an undeserved hand out.
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/07/06/science/colorados-push-against-teenage...
Zip codes seem to be a stand-in for community, and I was disappointed the author doesn't more fully discuss the social ties that surround this issue. The cycle of poverty is sustained by strong social ties, for good and for ill, to communities beleagured by crime and poor living conditions. Those that leave benefit not from a geographic change so much as a change in the nature of the communities in which they live. As one recipient says in her new community "people really care" about her children in shc. But I wonder how successful this experiment is long term if, as is intimated in this article, the families that move cannot establish social ties in their new zip code.
I would be happy for my hard earned tax dollars to go to help support a family like this in my neighborhood, and would hate to live among neighbors who feel that these families are receiving an undeserved hand out.
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/07/06/science/colorados-push-against-teenage...
4
Vouchers for married only might help.
13
The recent US Supreme Court ruling will help with the implementation of these kinds of programs… but as we've witnessed the enforcement of the laws of the land does not assure a change of heart in its citizens… nor does it change the attitude of legislators who play to the fears and loathings of their voters instead of appealing to their sense of fairness and justice. Here's hoping that programs like this one in Dallas will help ALL voters appreciate that parents who are effectively forced to live in poor ZIP codes want the same thing for their children as parents who can live wherever they want to.
Meaningless since the taxpayer is still footing the bill for the vouchers. Really tired of working my who life and still getting pushed to the back of the line. Everywhere i turn someone has their hand out. Not my fault other people make such poor decisions in life. You get out what you put in.
25
It seems like this article is pretty breezy about the ones "thrown under the bus" with reduced help. Good idea, bad implementation. Designed by someone who was never poor. How else could they justify tossing out elderly and poor into order to fund a new experiment. Ooo, it's so shiny.
4
Sometimes I read the top Readers' Picks letters and am aghast at the crass, self-centered perspective of middle/upper income writers who dismiss poor Americans as leeches and individuals breeding out control who do not deserve the help of their fellow citizens, the hallowed "taxpayers."
At times like this, I hope most of the letters are being generated by right-wing think tanks that write early and often to the Time from some oligarch-financed "Ronald Reagan Institute."
While enriching folks like Dick Cheney, Halliburton, the military-industrial complex and the rest of the 1 percent who are now so obscenely rich they have bought and own much of our former democracy, we have neglected our people to the point that one quarter of our children are living in poverty in the wealthiest country in the world. Little boys and girls are going to bed hungry all across the USA.
Our infrastructure is decaying into wreckage. Countless jobs (including at Bank of America!) don't pay enough for a decent life. People live in terrible pain and die from cancer diagnosed too late because they can't afford health care.
We are a society heading toward ruin, forgetting that empires decline and fall.
Almost every trend in this country is moving against the interests of ordinary people.
Senator Bernie Sanders understands the aspirations and despair of many of us. That's why he is drawing crowds of thousands to hear his message. I'm sending him a contribution today.
At times like this, I hope most of the letters are being generated by right-wing think tanks that write early and often to the Time from some oligarch-financed "Ronald Reagan Institute."
While enriching folks like Dick Cheney, Halliburton, the military-industrial complex and the rest of the 1 percent who are now so obscenely rich they have bought and own much of our former democracy, we have neglected our people to the point that one quarter of our children are living in poverty in the wealthiest country in the world. Little boys and girls are going to bed hungry all across the USA.
Our infrastructure is decaying into wreckage. Countless jobs (including at Bank of America!) don't pay enough for a decent life. People live in terrible pain and die from cancer diagnosed too late because they can't afford health care.
We are a society heading toward ruin, forgetting that empires decline and fall.
Almost every trend in this country is moving against the interests of ordinary people.
Senator Bernie Sanders understands the aspirations and despair of many of us. That's why he is drawing crowds of thousands to hear his message. I'm sending him a contribution today.
7
When I was a teacher and psychologist for the New York City public schools and saw the devastating impact of dense unsafe public housing on the emotional and cognitive lives of students, I thought a solution would be for families to be relocated not throughout the city, but throughout the country. The cost of facilitating such a plan are probably a lot less than the costs to society by not doing it. And, should someone consider this "racists", see
"A Raisin In The Sun."
"A Raisin In The Sun."
1
We rented our house in a middle class neighborhood to a Section 8 mom with three children. We felt good about helping her and the rent paid by the Housing Authority was at market. Her children had good schools and a stable neighborhood. Well... She turned the home into a party house with people in and out all night. We finally decided to sell the house and had to go through an eviction process where the sheriff eventually made her leave. The house was trashed and it took $30,000 in repairs and maintenance to get the house ready for sale. We ended up embarrassed that we put our neighbors through so much trouble and emotionally drained at having to deal with her. I'm sure not all families needing help are like this one, but I would never take the chance again.
78
I have mixed feelings when reading this. I want to support a well-meaning mother, but I look back on my own history and feel terrible resentment and anger. In the 70s recession, I and my other college educated white friends had to live in neighborhoods adjacent to housing projects. I was lucky, I never got hurt, but many of my friends were beaten and raped. Several were murdered. It took me, with my college degree, fifteen years to get enough money to leave that neighborhood. If my lost friends, who were working and well-meaning, young and ambitious, and whose murderers were never found because the police did not bother to solve ghetto crimes, could not get help out of the neighborhood, should I practice compassion toward such families? Compassion is best, but how much struggle should be expected from each of us?
20
Obviously, you have since moved on. This was probably inevitable, since you're white and college educated. It may have taken you a little while, but I assume you're ok now. So, why resent those who come after you and yank the ladder out from under them? Because they get a voucher? Really? They are starting out on a rung so far below the one you started on that they'll have to climb years and years just to get to the level you started at. You had it right...compassion is best.
Fifteen years is a long time to live with drug addicts and crime. Please be careful what you assume; I feel like I still live in a war zone. I carry the losses in my heart. Instead of vouchers, full employment and a guaranteed living wage would be better. The white working class's lot only improved with the post-war boom. We all need those chances again.
2
Yes, let's forcefully tax the middle class so that these so-called worthy poor can live better than middle class. That won't cause resentment, will it?
3
Despite the voucher program being cheaper, lowering crime and improving academic attainment as well as employment prospects and even longevity, people oppose it. The question is, why?
Deep down, a lot of Americans feel that the less fortunate should suffer and live terrible lives. They may not want to admit it, but their actions and words prove it everyday. Vouchers improve social mobility while costing less than the old scheme? Scrap them, we can't have the poor living amongst decent folk!
And so it goes, the worst child poverty, income inequality, infant mortality and social mobility in the developed world, all because of a desire to make sure that the poor are suitably chastised for their perceived "fecklessness".
Deep down, a lot of Americans feel that the less fortunate should suffer and live terrible lives. They may not want to admit it, but their actions and words prove it everyday. Vouchers improve social mobility while costing less than the old scheme? Scrap them, we can't have the poor living amongst decent folk!
And so it goes, the worst child poverty, income inequality, infant mortality and social mobility in the developed world, all because of a desire to make sure that the poor are suitably chastised for their perceived "fecklessness".
19
What is left unsaid is the perception that voucher holders are exclusively black, which is a false perception. What a terrifying prospect to have a black family living next door (said with heavy sarcasm)!
maybe many Americans do not want to see their home values decrease or gang violence move into their neighborhood or their school's quality decreased?
5
There is a difference between the deserving poor and the undeserving poor. A person who has disabilities and therefore cannot live independently is an example of the deserving poor.
The undeserving poor are those who make atrocious choices. A single young woman who has her first child at age sixteen and then proceeds to have even more children is an example of the undeserving poor.
Unfortunately this is a zero sum game. If more is given to the undeserving poor, then less is available for those in need who are deserving. The disabled have little political clout, so elected officials can ignore their plight with few repercussions.
The undeserving poor are those who make atrocious choices. A single young woman who has her first child at age sixteen and then proceeds to have even more children is an example of the undeserving poor.
Unfortunately this is a zero sum game. If more is given to the undeserving poor, then less is available for those in need who are deserving. The disabled have little political clout, so elected officials can ignore their plight with few repercussions.
8
To keep this program from being a disaster causing neighborhoods to tip, it needs to include racial quotas modeled on the covert but successful "black a block" program that saved Oak Park, Illinois in the 1970s from being wiped out the way the neighboring Austin neighborhood of Chicago was destroyed. Oak Park imposed a racial quota on real estate agents to prevent them from instigating white flight to cash in on big turnover:
http://isteve.blogspot.com/2011/08/oak-park-v-austin.html
http://isteve.blogspot.com/2011/08/oak-park-v-austin.html
4
Readers: Puerto Rico is the model of what is to come in the US.
These vouchers are very common there. And look to what it has created, a failed economy, lack of responsibility, and incentive. Once my grandmother had a neighbor living with a voucher. When she came back after a month of visiting a relative, she had a $100.00 water bill. The neighbor had been stealing water from her. She was even afraid to go out to her yard.
Another example of this kind of subsidies: And uncle had a truck business in PR. He went bankrupt because he couldn't find any drivers. It was easier to live on subsidies. 60% do. And even professionals are deserting the island.
We live in a society where the top and the bottom are favored. This is the formula of third-world countries with non-existent middle classes that keep the economy afloat.
These vouchers are very common there. And look to what it has created, a failed economy, lack of responsibility, and incentive. Once my grandmother had a neighbor living with a voucher. When she came back after a month of visiting a relative, she had a $100.00 water bill. The neighbor had been stealing water from her. She was even afraid to go out to her yard.
Another example of this kind of subsidies: And uncle had a truck business in PR. He went bankrupt because he couldn't find any drivers. It was easier to live on subsidies. 60% do. And even professionals are deserting the island.
We live in a society where the top and the bottom are favored. This is the formula of third-world countries with non-existent middle classes that keep the economy afloat.
42
The NY Times article disgracefully ignores the impact of these vouchers on the new areas the holders move into? It refuses to ask the question of will crime increase? What happens to home values? Will the voucher holders make decent neighbors (i.e, and not commit crimes)?
5
It's funny you mention PR, I came across a quote from a lady leaving PR due to the problems there. This is what she said, “The government gives money to the people who don’t work, to those doing drugs, living on welfare,” she said. “I’m not willing to do that anymore.”
Read more here: http://www.miamiherald.com/news/nation-world/world/americas/article26622...
I thought it was a very astute perception. You're right this is the model the New Left wants for America.
Read more here: http://www.miamiherald.com/news/nation-world/world/americas/article26622...
I thought it was a very astute perception. You're right this is the model the New Left wants for America.
1
I think everyone is a little bit right. I live in Phillipsburg NJ and the town runs on Section 8. We do have many people who are cheating the system (not declaring income, boyfriend living in house WO declaring income, working under the table, etc) and many people on Section 8 are drunks, drug addicts and criminals. The administrator for the program in our town is very good, however and investigates any irregularities. For those truly disabled it can really help keep a roof over their head. But many of the people who are on Section 8 really don't deserve to be there because of cheating the system and dependency on the system. There are two and three generations living on subsidies and they like it that way and never strive to leave the neighborhood. The way Section 8 is enforced now prevents felons from getting assistance, and anyone who damages a rental can't get Section 8 until the former landlord is reimbursed for damages.
45
We were never reimbursed for damages.
Your comment goes to the point of this article, that a concentration of low income people in one area does not help them rise above their circumstances, and instead, being able to rent in better neighborhoods improves school outcomes, health, etc.
All this is, is more welfare, that's all, just more welfare.
16
So, when is this coming to Manhattan? Surely there are some women like Lamesa White that could use and extra $1800 to move to a sweet place just east of Central park. It would be great for her kids to go to school with the kids living there now.
17
Manhattan has tens of thousands of units of subsidized housing.
Why should anyone get $1800 per month? These people have a higher standard of living than many people. My SSI check is $2000 per month, and I get no subsidies
1
but they are not in wealthy areas. That is the problem. That's where they need to be.
1
This is the ultimate in post hoc fallacy thinking. Let's see what else can we equate with success? Blue eyes? Yes, that's it; let's tinker with the gene pool until all the poor have blue eyes. That should do it, right?
17
It sounds like Ms. White has a decent job and transportation. I applaud the program and its efforts. That said, many poor folks are trapped by a variety of issues like need for good public transit, which is often lacking in suburbs. Without a car, even if one can get to work, getting groceries or getting to a doctor's office can be next to impossible. Some will need much wider support to make the move work.
14
There's this thing called white flight. Maybe the government has heard of it.
35
If White people would stop fleeing every time a person of color or a poor person moves into their neighborhood, property values would not go down, and perhaps, just perhaps, they might find out that people who are poor can also make good neighbors. Most of the poor are actually working (know you find that hard to believe with your preconceived notions) and hoping to get ahead, just like middle class white people.
Good lord I am so sick of the racism in this country.
Good lord I am so sick of the racism in this country.
2
People don't flee from color. They flee from crime. People from the north often comment how Texas neighborhoods are much more racially integrated than neighborhoods they live in the north. So, I don't think it is racism, but safety that concerns people like Lamesa White. She was seeking less crime, not less color.
4
Fabulous! Kudos to Texas!
The new information from the Chetty / Harvard study is that moving a poor family to a much better area really does help the children. The new information shows that moving them to a slightly better area does not help.
Section 8 housing rules should be changed to reflect this. Texas has done something about it, and New York and California ought to follow suit.
This is a step towards levelling the playing field, and giving all children a decent start in life. It can be funded by increasing the almost nonexistent death and inheritance taxes on the rich and super-rich. It is something like the Welfare for All proposal of the Comedy Party.
To see this and other great ideas, go to YouTube and watch Comedy Party Platform (2 min 9 sec). Then invite me to speak to your group and send a buck to Bernie.
The new information from the Chetty / Harvard study is that moving a poor family to a much better area really does help the children. The new information shows that moving them to a slightly better area does not help.
Section 8 housing rules should be changed to reflect this. Texas has done something about it, and New York and California ought to follow suit.
This is a step towards levelling the playing field, and giving all children a decent start in life. It can be funded by increasing the almost nonexistent death and inheritance taxes on the rich and super-rich. It is something like the Welfare for All proposal of the Comedy Party.
To see this and other great ideas, go to YouTube and watch Comedy Party Platform (2 min 9 sec). Then invite me to speak to your group and send a buck to Bernie.
4
Anyone who supports this should be forced to live next door to the new neighbors they wanted. But we know that won't happen.
87
You are right- many on it are trouble makers . The next town over has felons , drug addicts, and murderers ( post jail) on it and they have shootings all the time .
11
I support it, partly because I know that putting people in areas with better schools, amenities and economic prospects, helps them, without harming the rest of us. People who oppose it do so on the basis of fear and dubious anecdotes, not actual evidence.
In reality, creating pockets of poverty or "ghettos" is what causes huge social problems, but as is so often the case, people oppose actual tested solutions to social ills out of a fear of change or the unknown.
Oh and I have definitely put my money where my mouth is.
In reality, creating pockets of poverty or "ghettos" is what causes huge social problems, but as is so often the case, people oppose actual tested solutions to social ills out of a fear of change or the unknown.
Oh and I have definitely put my money where my mouth is.
2
'...In reality, creating pockets of poverty or "ghettos" is what causes huge social problems...'
If poor people are just like middle class people, why would that happen?
It is not as if creating pockets of the middle class causes huge social problems.
If poor people are just like middle class people, why would that happen?
It is not as if creating pockets of the middle class causes huge social problems.
4
This is The United States....not Greece or other socialist countries...all the tax money going to illegal immigrants should be used to help our fellow Black Americans...Can you imagine the money and resources put in the inner cities to bolster security, housing quality, better schools and teachers , plus setting up a farmers market where fresh food could be bought for the families...and hold the families accountable..this is what we can make happen in the USA..and make it work.
10
What about all the wasted tax money going into the military for unjustified foreign wars, or all the tax dollars uncollected from the one percenters and the corporations that lobby to control the tax codes so that they don't have to pay their fair share?
23
your comments beg some questions. First of all, greater "security" implies more law enforcement and arrests. Will the residents tolerate this?
Teaches in areas like DC start out at $48,000 with pay going to $120,000. Yet only about a third of students even graduate with a high school degree. Plus the overwhelming majority of teachers cannot even make it past the first year. They simply cannot take the abuse that is heaped upon them by students (and parents in some cases).
With respect to housing the residents are basically given low or no rent housing. Much of it was new. Visit some of these areas, at least in DC, and see how the residents have basically destroyed these areas.
Givent these facts why do you believe more money is the solution? Are not other reforms more badly needed (i.e., massive incarceration of the criminal element, corporal punishment in schools to bring something resembling order, etc.).
Teaches in areas like DC start out at $48,000 with pay going to $120,000. Yet only about a third of students even graduate with a high school degree. Plus the overwhelming majority of teachers cannot even make it past the first year. They simply cannot take the abuse that is heaped upon them by students (and parents in some cases).
With respect to housing the residents are basically given low or no rent housing. Much of it was new. Visit some of these areas, at least in DC, and see how the residents have basically destroyed these areas.
Givent these facts why do you believe more money is the solution? Are not other reforms more badly needed (i.e., massive incarceration of the criminal element, corporal punishment in schools to bring something resembling order, etc.).
2
CHANGE FOR THE BETTER The parents interviewed are articulate, advocate for their children and aware of the benefits of education in safer surroundings. These conditions are necessary for children to succeed in their new neighborhoods. It is good to see a ray of hope in all the clouds shrouding school performance and public housing policy. The fact that the children described were attending public schools suggests that vouchers for housing hold more potential for improving educational outcomes than school vouchers for charter or private schools. Studies have demonstrated that the results of private schools and charter schools do not differ significantly in standardized test scores. But housing vouchers, by removing high levels of toxic stress from families, may allow children to feel safe, freeing up more energy for learning and academic achievement. Children who grow up in war zones or refugee camps are so stressed that they have little energy left to focus on learning, if and when schools are available at all. If children are forced to grow up in dangerous neighborhoods where the level of violence approaches, or even surpasses, war zones, their true potential may be diminished due to unrelenting fear, stress and trauma. Part of effective education is the provision of a safe, nurturing environment in the school itself as well as in the community. Such a focus is far more productive than blaming professional educators for toxic stress beyond their control.
12
There is also the issue of not having children you cannot provide for, but expecting the rest of society to help. Of course, if you have exceptional genes why not?
1
Interesting thing to note that the mother in this story said she changed her phone number and supposedly cut off all ties with her friends in the old community. For those who move into better neighborhoods and school districts with troubled teenagers ( drugs or gangs ) one can only hope these kids cut off ties as well and see this is an opportunity for a better life not just new, fertile turf to conquer.
28
I found that odd; all her friends are drug dealers or troublemakers? How long will it take for those types to find her in her new home? She didn't end up being friends with losers "by accident". It was part of her lifestyle.
I live in a modest inner ring suburb in the Rustbelt. It has been the location of choice for Section 8 housing for years, and the foreclosure crisis put that on greased rails. The influx of poor, dysfunctional families -- teenage kids who party, do drugs or are loud -- robberies, break-ins, home invasions -- we now have pan handlers at the bus stops -- and of course, rental properties that are dirty and badly maintained by absentee landlords (chortling as they cash those above-market Section 8 checks!). It has totally changed the character, let alone the safety, of a once lovely area -- and driven away most of the middle class homeowners, including BLACK middle class homeowners, who did not move here to be surrounded by the same loser-types and welfare families they LEFT back in the ghetto.
I live in a modest inner ring suburb in the Rustbelt. It has been the location of choice for Section 8 housing for years, and the foreclosure crisis put that on greased rails. The influx of poor, dysfunctional families -- teenage kids who party, do drugs or are loud -- robberies, break-ins, home invasions -- we now have pan handlers at the bus stops -- and of course, rental properties that are dirty and badly maintained by absentee landlords (chortling as they cash those above-market Section 8 checks!). It has totally changed the character, let alone the safety, of a once lovely area -- and driven away most of the middle class homeowners, including BLACK middle class homeowners, who did not move here to be surrounded by the same loser-types and welfare families they LEFT back in the ghetto.
15
If the NYtimes had just not put an African-American face on the story, there would be a lot more empathy and compassion. The same people who idolized the Duggars (Human breeders if I ever saw any) have the nerve to criticize a monority woman with four kids. And let's not talk about their touchy freely son...But that's worth defense. And meanwhile, Bristol Palin is on her second child out of wedlock - and that barely is mentioned in the news, and is definitely not met with the same disdain as these vile readers have shown for a woman whose story they do not know. But, perhaps the NYTimes actually knows the winning formula to getting readers to respond in droves with such venom: put a Black person on a story about poverty.
28
My first understanding about females with lots of children came from my husband, who as a special education teacher starting seeing droves of troubled children with behavior and learning children, all of them white with fairly intelligent mothers who after having various fathers in their lives moved on and into Cottonwood County which had a really higher amount of money for their social programs. He would see mothers with one child in juvenile, one in a mental health program, and one in a boys ranch. He started having to make regular appearances at the County Court in front of the District Judge to deal with one issue or another. The job of a teacher over the last 40 years has transitioned from one about teaching to one about dealing with social issues from females not caring how often they get pregnant and to who is the father or whether he can be a good provider.
19
Here are some facts: about 48% of all Section 8 holders are black; blacks make up only 12% of the population.
In many cities blacks are easily the majority of section 8 holders. Here's a link to a story from DC where they tried this everyone involved is black. Yet the people paying full freight had serious problems with people not paying. I can tell you from experience, having people that aren't paying their way moving into a middle class area is not a picnic.
http://www.washingtoncitypaper.com/articles/35936/old-hope-new-worries
There is no compassion to be had. Living in a luxury suburb isn't a human right but obnoxious social engineering. Race (more accurately culture in my humble opinion) obviously plays a role but it's also about basic fairness and what we want to be as a country. Do we want to give something for nothing or do we want to help people develop skills and mores that help them improve their lives?
In many cities blacks are easily the majority of section 8 holders. Here's a link to a story from DC where they tried this everyone involved is black. Yet the people paying full freight had serious problems with people not paying. I can tell you from experience, having people that aren't paying their way moving into a middle class area is not a picnic.
http://www.washingtoncitypaper.com/articles/35936/old-hope-new-worries
There is no compassion to be had. Living in a luxury suburb isn't a human right but obnoxious social engineering. Race (more accurately culture in my humble opinion) obviously plays a role but it's also about basic fairness and what we want to be as a country. Do we want to give something for nothing or do we want to help people develop skills and mores that help them improve their lives?
38
The Duggar's are multi-millionaires who had their own popular TV series -- Bristol Palin is the daughter of millionaires (even before Palin ran for VP) and has her own money from TV shows. Neither of these folks are on welfare.
Nobody cares if a rich person wants to have 19 kids, or have them out of wedlock, as long as they PAY THEIR OWN BILLS and don't go on "the dole" and make us taxpayers support those kids.
Nobody cares if a rich person wants to have 19 kids, or have them out of wedlock, as long as they PAY THEIR OWN BILLS and don't go on "the dole" and make us taxpayers support those kids.
12
If you're poor and in a "bad neighborhood" you want to leave to get away from what makes a neighborhood bad- that is, other people from the neighborhood. But at the same time, you are one of those people.
If you're not in a bad neighborhood, and don't want those same people- people from a bad neighborhood- to move into your good neighborhood, it's seen as unfair and elitist.
While I would like to give people the opportunities necessary to get out of poverty, if poverty didn't correlate with bad behavior and poor choices, we wouldn't have bad neighborhoods in the first place.
If you're not in a bad neighborhood, and don't want those same people- people from a bad neighborhood- to move into your good neighborhood, it's seen as unfair and elitist.
While I would like to give people the opportunities necessary to get out of poverty, if poverty didn't correlate with bad behavior and poor choices, we wouldn't have bad neighborhoods in the first place.
61
What "bad behavior" and "poor choice" did a kid born this very day in a crime riddled neighborhood commit?
The act of being born into poverty?
Bad choice kid!
What were you thinking "choosing" to grow up around crime, bad schools and a family financial situation that will have you wanting.
Childish comment from someone who made the "poor choice" to post.
The grown-ups will take it from here.
The act of being born into poverty?
Bad choice kid!
What were you thinking "choosing" to grow up around crime, bad schools and a family financial situation that will have you wanting.
Childish comment from someone who made the "poor choice" to post.
The grown-ups will take it from here.
22
No, the mother and father of this child are the ones who made a "bad choice". These are the supposed "grown ups" who continually make bad choices by the millions!
1
Your comment is spot-on!
It's ok for the voucher recipient to reject "those people" and live apart from them but it's not okay for anyone who currently lives in a nice neighborhood to do so.
It's ok for the voucher recipient to reject "those people" and live apart from them but it's not okay for anyone who currently lives in a nice neighborhood to do so.
1
I am a landlord in a western suburb of Boston. I have a section 8 tenant who moved her family from a bad inner city neighborhood of Boston to this suburb so that her children could get a better education. 4 kids with 3 different fathers. All three boys were suspended from schools at different times. Once for almost killing a homeless man with a skateboard with some of his friends for fun. Another who graduated from brand new 200 million dollar Newton North high school was just arrested for driving around with a stolen high capacity, high caliber gun, a bunch of drugs and a scale.
Would you want to live in that 3 family house? Would you want your children living there? (I have a number of female young professionals and students attending Brandeis also in the building) I consider myself as liberal as they come but should I tell the other people in the building what I know? What would NY times readers suggest I do? Do I kick them out?
She is 47, has never worked more than a few months in her life, has 4 children and 5 grandchildren, none with a college degree. She pays for nothing through a variety of government programs. What is the lesson?
Meanwhile we good liberals gnash our teeth about global warming and overpopulation. Why doesn't anyone equate the increased scarcity of resources with the 'breeding like rabbits' as the Pope said?
China's one child policy starts to make a lot of sense when faced with this day after day.
Would you want to live in that 3 family house? Would you want your children living there? (I have a number of female young professionals and students attending Brandeis also in the building) I consider myself as liberal as they come but should I tell the other people in the building what I know? What would NY times readers suggest I do? Do I kick them out?
She is 47, has never worked more than a few months in her life, has 4 children and 5 grandchildren, none with a college degree. She pays for nothing through a variety of government programs. What is the lesson?
Meanwhile we good liberals gnash our teeth about global warming and overpopulation. Why doesn't anyone equate the increased scarcity of resources with the 'breeding like rabbits' as the Pope said?
China's one child policy starts to make a lot of sense when faced with this day after day.
129
I also have experience working in low income housing. I had a bright-eyed bushy tailed 8 year-old who's only crime was being born into poverty, tell me she was going to take over he mom's HUD apartment when she got older. The mother didn't work and just lived off of $700/ month in court ordered child support. I actually cried on the way home from work that day.
23
You encountered these people once the horse has left the barn.
You are a saint for your help but, short of a major intervention, these folks may be long gone.
Life isn't hard to understand.
Babies are born.
They then are either nourished properly (food and soul and education and safe environs) or they are not.
All to quick, as any parent knows, they are 5 then 10 then teenage.
If they are neglected, short-changed by their circumstances, including struggling parents who were burned as kids themselves, then the kids end up with problems.
Schooling is forsaken.
Teens wander and seek kicks.
Young adults with little prospects and hope result.
Rinse and repeat for generations.
In Georgia a project was undertaken with help from billionaires. Poor neighborhood was essentially dismantled. New housing, help for residents to get employment, safety compliments of the police, strict rules of conduct to remain in the shiney new neighborhood.
Results very good so far. Saw it on PBS.
Ghetto by ghetto, factories of despair and unrealized potential (is there a greater crime?) should be dismantled.
With the consent and buy in of the majority of residents who want a better life for their kids.
Start over - the models exist.
Continuing on our failed path is madness.
Criminal.
The residents need to organize, pitch in, demand a new deal.
You are a saint for your help but, short of a major intervention, these folks may be long gone.
Life isn't hard to understand.
Babies are born.
They then are either nourished properly (food and soul and education and safe environs) or they are not.
All to quick, as any parent knows, they are 5 then 10 then teenage.
If they are neglected, short-changed by their circumstances, including struggling parents who were burned as kids themselves, then the kids end up with problems.
Schooling is forsaken.
Teens wander and seek kicks.
Young adults with little prospects and hope result.
Rinse and repeat for generations.
In Georgia a project was undertaken with help from billionaires. Poor neighborhood was essentially dismantled. New housing, help for residents to get employment, safety compliments of the police, strict rules of conduct to remain in the shiney new neighborhood.
Results very good so far. Saw it on PBS.
Ghetto by ghetto, factories of despair and unrealized potential (is there a greater crime?) should be dismantled.
With the consent and buy in of the majority of residents who want a better life for their kids.
Start over - the models exist.
Continuing on our failed path is madness.
Criminal.
The residents need to organize, pitch in, demand a new deal.
9
The kids didn't have a choice to be born into poverty. Free and readily available birth control would accomplish Planned Parenthood's motto "Make every child a wanted child". It is not easy to get birth control (physical exams are required to obtain pills every year and it requires a prescription and health exam) and it sure isn't free. The women who are the poorest and most vulnerable are the ones who need access and we all pay the price (in crime and social welfare programs) for not supporting FREE BIRTH CONTROL
11
That seems terribly unfair to people who worked hard to pay for homes in those neighborhoods.
So what has this program "accomplished"? You've made both the old neighborhoods and the new neighborhoods worse and you spent a good deal of tax money in the process.
Sorry, this is beyond stupid. It's vile.
So what has this program "accomplished"? You've made both the old neighborhoods and the new neighborhoods worse and you spent a good deal of tax money in the process.
Sorry, this is beyond stupid. It's vile.
80
I think that we have moved way beyond reality in that it is nice that this woman and her two children are in a safe neighborhood, and that her two children are receiving more special help in school as both seem to have academic issues, but how can you expect society to accept a model of not only free healthcare, debit cards, free school lunches, subsidized housing, etc. and an approaching 21 trillion in debt? My doctor just informed me today that 75% of all Americans are overweight or obese, and I told him that it is a result of affluence. Affluence is a state of over consumption, and it is irrelevant where the money comes from, a job or the government. Humans are no different than bears, give them easy access to sweets and the means, and it beats stripping the leaves off the trees, and eating berries. Having just come back from Montana visiting my 94 year old mother, and being a native of that state, I understand the nature of the human animal, and we are basically little different than bears.
25
If you are worried about the national debt, vote for people who will not get us into costly wars without clear goals, will not give corporations subsidies without a specific, equivalent benefit to this country, etc. The over $1 million we spend on war DAILY is much, much more than this woman and her families or others like them will ever get from government benefits. My father worked in the defense industry -- one fighter jet took $35 million to build and it wasn't the most expensive. One B-2 stealth bomber was $1 billion.
Attacking the government benefits the poor receive is like shifting deck chairs on the Titanic compared to the other spending the gov't is engaged in.
Attacking the government benefits the poor receive is like shifting deck chairs on the Titanic compared to the other spending the gov't is engaged in.
18
Exactly. Let's stop voting for the Democrats and Republicans. They both give tax breaks to the rich and connected, participate in wars around the world, take care of the elite at the expense of everyone else and pretend like there is some sort of fundamental difference between the two so that we can dream that one side or the other is on our side.
8
Four children, not two.
8
Artilcles like this are not going to convince Americans to vote for more taxes.....no way......where is the father of these four kids?
90
So would you also ask about the father if the mother is a high powered Wall Streeter? It is amazing about the logic of American voters willing to pony up more taxes and the father in a family unit.
This is not to say solution is so simple. Obviously, there are good cases and not so good cases. But a single factor is not a solution made. However, lifting families from poverty and converting them into tax paying middle class will pay for the cost in the long run. The question is if smart voters can think holistically and for the long term, a willingness to see beyond tomorrow and move America to greater prosperity with utmost inclusiveness
This is not to say solution is so simple. Obviously, there are good cases and not so good cases. But a single factor is not a solution made. However, lifting families from poverty and converting them into tax paying middle class will pay for the cost in the long run. The question is if smart voters can think holistically and for the long term, a willingness to see beyond tomorrow and move America to greater prosperity with utmost inclusiveness
2
If that Moher is a high powered Wall Streeter I doubt this family would be the subject of an article like this. The Father more than likely would be supporting his children voluntarily if not by court order in addition to the earnings of the Mother.
3
No, one would not ask about the father if the mother was a high powered Wall Streeter if she wasn't on the public teat at all. I've lived in a mixed setting and believe me, I would never do so by choice again. Maybe you think verbal harassment, loud music, and selling drugs in the halls is proper behavior, but I don't.
7
Is there any evidence that moving from a poor area to a rich area improves outcomes? The paper by Chetty doesn't consider what might have been different about people who chose to move to high income neighborhoods. Without knowing that, there is little reason to believe that simply moving someone will change their outcomes much.
If I were in Ms. White's position, I would also be happy to live in a safer neighborhood with better schools. But that does not mean such moving subsidies are an effective way to relieve poverty.
Also, the article does not consider *why* people
If I were in Ms. White's position, I would also be happy to live in a safer neighborhood with better schools. But that does not mean such moving subsidies are an effective way to relieve poverty.
Also, the article does not consider *why* people
26
The article does not consider that it is impossible to relocate that many people, or subsidize them in such an affluent lifestyle -- one that ordinary people work like dogs to obtain (with TWO adults working in each family and way fewer kids!).
If you move enough people into Plano who are poor and have troubled kids costing the schools a fortune -- what do you think will happen to the regular residents who worked hard and saved and paid taxes to live in this nice place?
This is dog in the manger stuff -- "I'm jealous of everything you have, that you worked and saved for -- so I am going to destroy it for everyone else!"
If you move enough people into Plano who are poor and have troubled kids costing the schools a fortune -- what do you think will happen to the regular residents who worked hard and saved and paid taxes to live in this nice place?
This is dog in the manger stuff -- "I'm jealous of everything you have, that you worked and saved for -- so I am going to destroy it for everyone else!"
5
Wow, reading this article is depressing. $1,840 for a monthly rental voucher for a single mother of four. The system is completely broken. I honestly feel for the problems of the children but we as a society are doomed for failure with a model like this. Does this person hold a job? It is unclear. The only fools in this country are the working poor who don't get a government subsidy.
83
It says right in the article that she works in a mortgage department of a bank. Did you not WANT to see that, so just totally missed it? The poor are working. They need BIG time help to turn their lives around. It is worth the investment.
1
Jack,
you need to ask where the "fathers " are. Then the black leadership blames "racism" of whites rather than black behavior. Anyone who mentions this is also labeled a "racist". The country really needs major changes, starting with what the nation's black leadership views as the real problem.
you need to ask where the "fathers " are. Then the black leadership blames "racism" of whites rather than black behavior. Anyone who mentions this is also labeled a "racist". The country really needs major changes, starting with what the nation's black leadership views as the real problem.
5
It says she works for the Mortgage Department of Bank of America. Obviously not very well paid!
1
Finally, an article that looks a real solution to failing institutions in failing neighborhoods (i.e. schools) ---move the neighborhoods. Scattered site housing is a researched based answer (which we knew about in the 70's), but politically never gained traction. Granted, the problems associated with travel to jobs, etc. is not an easy one to address. Having said that, looking for a solution to that problem is far easier than attempting to fix an institution --- like schools--- in failing neighborhoods.
5
Hmm. Vouchers, permitting poor folks to avoid failed and dangerous public housing, seem to work.
Perhaps we should try vouchers to permit poor folks to escape failed and dangerous public schools.
Perhaps we should try vouchers to permit poor folks to escape failed and dangerous public schools.
16
Or, we could tax the wealthy according to the extent to which it uses and abuses the infrastructure, and we could start paying wages according to inflation, and we could stop sending jobs overseas and start a manufacturing base here again, and we could understand that we actually pay very little in taxes for what we demand.
As for the unnecessary jab at public schools, do you really expect to purposely starve the beast and then have it not be "failed and dangerous"?
As for the unnecessary jab at public schools, do you really expect to purposely starve the beast and then have it not be "failed and dangerous"?
4
Unfortunately, this only works if there are very few poor people in a middle class area, as once the proportion of poor reaches critical mass, the neighborhood deteriorates and becomes just like the neighborhood they left.
Poor neighborhoods do not become crime-ridden, dirty, and dangerous out of thin air.
Poor neighborhoods do not become crime-ridden, dirty, and dangerous out of thin air.
51
We could also fix the tax system so businesses do not move overseas. We can allow for people to carry guns so they can defend themselves.
No.
Bring back unions; make corporations - people, remember? - that lobby for tax breaks and get them, but that conduct 50% or more of their business overseas, pay very high penalties; extend Medicare to all from birth until death, and pay for it by adopting a foreign policy of diplomacy rather than blood for oil (we're too fat to fight decently, anyway); raise the minimum wage to keep up with inflation so that a larger tax base emerges to fund public schools at all levels.
The experimental, band-aid approaches as profiled in the article aren't a sustainable solution to our woes. But what I have listed above DOES work, HAS worked, CAN CONTINUE TO work, if only the US would stop the silliness about "exceptionalism" and "bootstraps" and all the other ideological pretenses that we like to wrap ourselves in.
We need real solutions to real problems, and we need to stop convincing ourselves that socialism means running out of other people's money just Thatcher said that what it means.
Honestly, we make things so much for costlier and complicated just to waste time proving some ambiguity about how "American" we are, as though other people on the planet actually care. Pssh - please!
ENOUGH! Get to work helping your fellow man through the very government services the red states help themselves to (despite their protests to those services - ironic, isn't it?) or get out of the way and let the adults handle the situation.
BE PRODUCTIVE.
Bring back unions; make corporations - people, remember? - that lobby for tax breaks and get them, but that conduct 50% or more of their business overseas, pay very high penalties; extend Medicare to all from birth until death, and pay for it by adopting a foreign policy of diplomacy rather than blood for oil (we're too fat to fight decently, anyway); raise the minimum wage to keep up with inflation so that a larger tax base emerges to fund public schools at all levels.
The experimental, band-aid approaches as profiled in the article aren't a sustainable solution to our woes. But what I have listed above DOES work, HAS worked, CAN CONTINUE TO work, if only the US would stop the silliness about "exceptionalism" and "bootstraps" and all the other ideological pretenses that we like to wrap ourselves in.
We need real solutions to real problems, and we need to stop convincing ourselves that socialism means running out of other people's money just Thatcher said that what it means.
Honestly, we make things so much for costlier and complicated just to waste time proving some ambiguity about how "American" we are, as though other people on the planet actually care. Pssh - please!
ENOUGH! Get to work helping your fellow man through the very government services the red states help themselves to (despite their protests to those services - ironic, isn't it?) or get out of the way and let the adults handle the situation.
BE PRODUCTIVE.
14
Must all help to other come through the government? Is that the only path? It wasn't when I was younger. Government destroyed the social structure that existed in the past for a pattern of increased control. And things are worse for it.
Taxpayers paying for welfare recipients to live in better neighborhoods than many of them.
117
That's exactly the relationship between most of the red states, which take more from the federal till than what they contribute, thus leaving most of the blue states with the remaining tab.
It's interesting that such a thick irony continues to lurk in conservative circles.
It's interesting that such a thick irony continues to lurk in conservative circles.
4
@justathought. Maybe...but you got to think farther out than that. The kids that get to grow up in a better zip code are less likely to cost you tax dollars down the road. Get it?
3
All of the states that have no income tax, including Alaska, Florida, Nevada, South Dakota, Texas, Washington, and Wyoming, need more subsidies from the federal government. New Hampshire and Tennessee have almost no income tax. Then, we don't need to talk about all of the states like California and Illinois that are almost bankrupt. Oh, then there is Chicago and Detroit. Financial intelligence is way beyond talking about Blue or Red States. Try having a father for a bookkeeper like I did, and then working for a stock investment counsel in New York over 45 years ago before computers starting at $80 per week, and I can tell you all the real financial truth there is and why it occurred. People think we need educated people and experts in their fields to tell us things. They are wrong as those are the people that got us into this financial mess not only in many cities, counties, states across this country but the federal government. Did we forget to mention the housing agency, Fanny? Truth never ends!
5
I work hard and have zero children...and I wish I could afford to live in a home like that. There's just something wrong to me about the government rewarding people for breeding out of control and having children they can't support.
136
How about reading them books, taking the kids to museums, getting involved in community & church, talking to them extensively as soon as they are born, taking advantage of any number of free or reduced price programs in learning code, running a business, etc?
The research only indicates a correlation. Correlation is not causation. Simply plopping them in the zip code that correlates for better income is incredibly short sighted (at least) and reeks of going after the sound byte as opposed to long term substantive ground roots change.
Of course living in the violent inner city is awful and nobody deserves that. But how is it a solution to move them about via tax money? What about the community they are leaving and the people there who don't want to break ties? In NJ, there is nothing instrinsically wrong with the zip codes--Camden and Trenton and Newark used to be thriving cities. It's the people within the zip codes. This move is not only not based on rigorous thinking, but it is an insult to the many wonderful people who stay in that zip code & work to make their neighborhood a better place.
It reminds me of the move for charter schools too. it's a privileged outsider short term solution. If you siphon off people from a community, or a school, what happens to the community that remains? How is this a societal solution at all (leaving aside the fact that substantive change can't happen by simply plopping you in a different place)?
The research only indicates a correlation. Correlation is not causation. Simply plopping them in the zip code that correlates for better income is incredibly short sighted (at least) and reeks of going after the sound byte as opposed to long term substantive ground roots change.
Of course living in the violent inner city is awful and nobody deserves that. But how is it a solution to move them about via tax money? What about the community they are leaving and the people there who don't want to break ties? In NJ, there is nothing instrinsically wrong with the zip codes--Camden and Trenton and Newark used to be thriving cities. It's the people within the zip codes. This move is not only not based on rigorous thinking, but it is an insult to the many wonderful people who stay in that zip code & work to make their neighborhood a better place.
It reminds me of the move for charter schools too. it's a privileged outsider short term solution. If you siphon off people from a community, or a school, what happens to the community that remains? How is this a societal solution at all (leaving aside the fact that substantive change can't happen by simply plopping you in a different place)?
45
Exporting the 'violent inner city' to middle class safe neighborhoods brings the problems with it. Nobody in the low crime neighborhood deserves that.
26
DCI, you are right, correlation is not causation. BUT the Chetty / Harvard study mentioned was NOT a correlation study. It was a cause and effect, random sampled experiment, and that is why it is important.
To see some other great ideas go to YouTube and watch Comedy Party Platform (2 min 9 sec). Thanks.
To see some other great ideas go to YouTube and watch Comedy Party Platform (2 min 9 sec). Thanks.
1
No, it was still just correlation. It did not show a mechanism of cause. It just showed the pattern without establishing cause.
This boarders on the obscene. When is the left going to realize that we live here on earth, not some utopian, never to be approached, dream world. And the worst part is they are trying to do it by taking the money of the ordinary hard working Joe who lives and eats by what he can afford: no handouts. If this kind of drivel continues, I am afraid there will be a backlash in America, the likes of which, no one can imagine.
111
@Ted. Since when Texas considered the "The Left"? Did I miss something in the article? This is happening in Texas, not Massachusetts. Last I read, Texas is a very, very red state. Splain that, Lucy.
Ted, not to be obscene, but I think you need to take a macro-economics class. The money that is "spent" on this program has a high velocity and is diffused. In other words it goes directly to (ACH deposit into the landlords bank account) the landlord and into the broader economy. Additionally these landlords tend to be mom & pop type operations. This means they buy goods with this income and not investments. The purchase of goods (which have a finite life) is what drives the underlying economy. In fact, one could easily argue that this money "spent" actually creates GDP, of course all models reach a point of diminishing returns, but I don't think we are even close to that point.
1
Perhaps the NY Times could do some investigative journalism into why these housing vouchers haven't worked in over forty years. Forced scatter-site housing initiatives have simply created new, segregated communities over time, both racial and economic. The middle and lower middle class is slowly being hollowed out by job losses and overseas manufacturing, while the Federal Government chooses to help those at the bottom move to "better neighborhoods".
Research has shown that children who have not mastered the basis of reading, writing and basis math by the fourth grade tend to fall behind permanently and this leads to high drop out rates and a life of crime. Simply moving children to safer neighborhoods won't magically fix this. I'm glad Ms. White and her children are better off, but the past pattern indicates the middle class neighbors will move away as more voucher families move in and the cycle will unfortunately repeat itself. Big Brother has never known "best" and forcing economic integration will fail once again. The federal government created high rise ghettos in the 1960's that were eventually bulldozed (think Chicago & St. Louis). No we have a new program that cuts subsidies to those recipients who won't move! More well intentioned bureaucrats trying another version of the same failed program over and over. Middle class minorities do not want Section 8 housing or housing vouchers next door. NY Times, you have more work to do.
Research has shown that children who have not mastered the basis of reading, writing and basis math by the fourth grade tend to fall behind permanently and this leads to high drop out rates and a life of crime. Simply moving children to safer neighborhoods won't magically fix this. I'm glad Ms. White and her children are better off, but the past pattern indicates the middle class neighbors will move away as more voucher families move in and the cycle will unfortunately repeat itself. Big Brother has never known "best" and forcing economic integration will fail once again. The federal government created high rise ghettos in the 1960's that were eventually bulldozed (think Chicago & St. Louis). No we have a new program that cuts subsidies to those recipients who won't move! More well intentioned bureaucrats trying another version of the same failed program over and over. Middle class minorities do not want Section 8 housing or housing vouchers next door. NY Times, you have more work to do.
68
I wonder who the developer is that will build new expensive homes in place of the places vacated when people are pushed out to the suburbs. I wonder if that developer will bear the cost of this program which opened land for him to rebuild on. This looks too much like Chicago electing residents who will pay higher taxes, while incentivizing the departure of those who consume more public subsidies and services.
1
Hey, can we have housing vouchers in Malibu? How about Chevy Chase?
This type of article brings out the best in some people. They think to themselves "We're grateful and blessed to afford living in clean and safe neighborhoods. Others may need a little help to move to better ones. This is what America is all about."
It also brings out the worst in others. It is like a dog whistle for the "Hands-off-my-taxes" crowd, as if they really have control of where these tax dollars go.
Then there are those "I don't have cancer. Why should I pay for cancer research?" or "I live on a yacht. Why should other people get free money to live on land?"
Still there's another group that thinks "Just take care of the job creators by cutting their taxes, and watch affordable housing trickle down on all those losers."
This type of article brings out the best in some people. They think to themselves "We're grateful and blessed to afford living in clean and safe neighborhoods. Others may need a little help to move to better ones. This is what America is all about."
It also brings out the worst in others. It is like a dog whistle for the "Hands-off-my-taxes" crowd, as if they really have control of where these tax dollars go.
Then there are those "I don't have cancer. Why should I pay for cancer research?" or "I live on a yacht. Why should other people get free money to live on land?"
Still there's another group that thinks "Just take care of the job creators by cutting their taxes, and watch affordable housing trickle down on all those losers."
9
Low-income housing should be scattered throughout municipal areas instead of concentrated in a few poorly resourced areas where buses are less frequent, businesses sparse, and hope rationed. Seattle requires that new buildings contain a small percentage of low-income units. This is 100% feasible, benefits everyone, and should be the policy of every city. Too often America's poorest are told they are morally bankrupt and at fault for most of their problems. Forcing the middle-class to live next to a family that works hard, yet struggles will end our ill-informed preconceived notions about 'the poor'.
30
Aren't the Seattle low cost units like New York city units? Don't they often go to friends and children of affluent or politically connected people rather than unconnected people like Lamesa White?
"Forcing the middle-class to live next to a family that works hard, yet struggles will end our ill-informed preconceived notions about 'the poor'. "
I lived near some of these "residents". Take my word, they never learned anything and continued in their delinquent ways. disgraceful.
I lived near some of these "residents". Take my word, they never learned anything and continued in their delinquent ways. disgraceful.
5
it benefits everyone? Have you ever lived in one of these complexes? I have a friend who is on the HOA board of such a complex and she tells me that many of the residents have all night parties, damage the property and commit crimes and refuse to follow HOA guidelines. This has an impact on how we view the poor. And it is not good.
7
What's the use of waiting to get married before having kids, going to school and landing a decent job to buy a nice home in a nice area if Obama and the Dems will just plop people into the same homes.
Who comes up with this type of nonsense? Honestly the Dems are so far removed from the middle class I simply refuse to vote for any of them.
Who comes up with this type of nonsense? Honestly the Dems are so far removed from the middle class I simply refuse to vote for any of them.
86
@Ed. Yeah, I know how you feel. I feel the same way about Repubs. Convince the lower middle class white folks to vote for tax cuts for the wealthiest among us. The same people that are grinding them into the ground. Haven't voted for a Republican since John McCain ran in 2000.
3
Well, I refuse to vote for Republicans because for every dollar Democrats "waste" on welfare, the Republicans waste $10 on useless wars. That hurts the middle class a bit more - just a bit.
7
But the Democrats voted for and continue to vote for the same wars. The one thing I really hoped our president would do was get out of these wars. I wish there were a real anti war candidate in the upcoming election.
2
This article reminds me of the great improvements many families experienced out of the tragedy of hurricane Katrina. People who lived in the worst areas of New Orleans were displaced to areas in OK and TX or GA, and thrived there, finding better housing and more economic opportunities than they ever imagined. Helping families move out of dangerous and economically depressed areas makes dollars and sense to me.
23
Actually, most hated the new neighborhoods. No where is like New Orleans, with its tight knit "wards". Most have come home, the rest are just trying to get home.
2
"Lamesa White and her four children moved in February from the most dangerous public housing project in Dallas to a single-family home in this affluent suburb."
Four children coming from the most dangerous public housing project, and no father mentioned. Sorry to be harsh but good luck to those neighbors. You know, those neighbors who probably worked hard and saved their money so that they could afford to move to that affluent suburb.
Four children coming from the most dangerous public housing project, and no father mentioned. Sorry to be harsh but good luck to those neighbors. You know, those neighbors who probably worked hard and saved their money so that they could afford to move to that affluent suburb.
100
Or they got inheritance from their families like help with down payments, which is probably just as true.
2
Paul: You do not need an inheritance to use birth control and it does not take a genius to understand that raising four children is expensive.
26
You are right, those neighbors are not happy about this and in a few years they are going to be more unhappy when they see what has happen to their neighborhood.
10
The residents moved to neighborhoods that are farther away from the city core, and possibly, farther away from their jobs (Interesting note: No family from the sample moved to Highland Park, which is close to the center). Moving families to a better neighborhood seems like a quick fix, and is definitely easier than improving local housing stock. However, policymakers should consider the commute to work, worsening congestion, and the fact that many low income families are required to be on-time to work at a physical location. In the long run, housing problems should not be traded for transportation problems.
14
A lot of jobs aren't in city cores any more, but have moved out to the suburbs. The woman the article talks about had her commute cut by quite a lot when she moved further out. But it is true that transportation issues have to be taken into account - my suburb, for one, has essentially no public transportation.
5
What I want to see is when the Obama's leave office, voucher neighbors next door to Obama's new home. "Period".
2
Wealthy areas can only absorb so many low-income families before they start to resemble the areas the low-income families left.
108
Yes. Research shows that number is between 25-33% of the total population without ANY negative effects (looking at stats on crime, home prices, educational outcomes, etc). 25% of the population is an awful lot of families.
Denver does a great job of mixed-income neighborhoods, and has many, many fewer "urban blight" problems traditionally associated with segregating people by income.
I wouldn't NIMBY this article away - it's supported by a lot of research.
Denver does a great job of mixed-income neighborhoods, and has many, many fewer "urban blight" problems traditionally associated with segregating people by income.
I wouldn't NIMBY this article away - it's supported by a lot of research.
1
I'm not sure what you mean by your statement but it assumes that poor people are automatically engaged in the types of behaviors Ms. White and Moore and are trying to leave behind and I would say that is incorrect. I grew up poor in an urban area in the 1980s and the neighborhood I lived in was composed of poor/ working-class folks but there was no one selling drugs on our doorstep, no one playing dice at the corner, and no fear of gun fire. The kids would get together and play tag at the park or go biking to buy candy at the nearby store. Our neighbor kept bees in his backyard and would share the honey he collected. People kept their lawns neat and some grew flowers while others grew vegetables. So in many respects, my childhood was normal and even idyllic. Sure, there are always a few bad apples but being poor is not a crime.
6
BTW, if you live in Westchester county in NY, I know there are many wealthy areas there so your fears may be driven by your lack of exposure to poor people. I travel to Florida regularly and one year stayed in a private apt. in a diverse, middle-class neighborhood because it was closer to things I wanted to do; however, the people I know there, all upper-middle/ upper class folks, were appalled and one was actually concerned about my safety. She meant well but it illustrated to me the stereotypes people hold about the less wealthy. Also, see this:
http://www.citylab.com/housing/2011/11/do-poor-people-make-neighborhoods...
http://www.citylab.com/housing/2011/11/do-poor-people-make-neighborhoods...
1
Real estate economists routinely estimate "hedonic regressions" in which we take a sample of recent home sales within a city and merge in MLS data on the physical attributes of the home (such as its age and square footage). Intuitively, this approach allows us to conduct an "apples to apples" comparison of how much would the same home cost in different neighborhoods. In this NY Times piece, there is no mention of how much more expensive is a home or an apartment in middle class neighborhoods versus extremely poor neighborhoods. This price differential varies across cities at a point in time and differs for a given city over time. This price differential is the key piece of data needed to figure out whether household income growth (independent of government subsidies) could allow poor households to "escape" bad neighborhoods. There are alternative land use policies for addressing this social problem. Relaxing binding zoning constraints would increase housing supply and this would shift the equilibrium real estate pricing gradient allowing more people to move to "better neighborhoods".
2
A child's life is "determined by the zip code she grows up in", says President Obama. He is wrong. A child's life is determined, more than in any other way, by the IQ she was born with. Haven't we wasted enough money on these schemes that seem so logical, so heartfelt, so easy when all scientific evidence shows us that they never have, and never will, work? Look, I wish all children were born with high IQ's. But they have not so let's stop pretending that associating low IQ children with high IQ children will somehow make silk purses out of sows' ears.
66
"A child's life is determined, more than in any other way, by the IQ she was born with. "
Very true, but it is not politically correct to even suggest that children of one race (Asian-Americanss) have a much higher IQ than those of another (African-Americans).
Very true, but it is not politically correct to even suggest that children of one race (Asian-Americanss) have a much higher IQ than those of another (African-Americans).
31
Mike,
IQ tests have been proven to be written towards - wait for it - knowledge held by those with quality education. We are not born with IQs. Note how the woman in this article notes how much better her son is doing because the school's tutoring program "cares" and keeps her informed.
IQ tests have been proven to be written towards - wait for it - knowledge held by those with quality education. We are not born with IQs. Note how the woman in this article notes how much better her son is doing because the school's tutoring program "cares" and keeps her informed.
1
And by the parent(s) with which s/he grows up.
7
This looks like a good way to ensure a better outcome for children, so it will likely save government money in the long run.
Questions abound, however. What happens to these ladies when their children leave home after college? Will they have to leave what has effectively become the family home, even though it is a rental, because their subsidies have decreased? Do they have the option of purchasing the home at some point, or will they have to find another place as rents naturally increase over time, perhaps faster than their income does?
I love the comment about appreciating the quiet. One thing that cities would do well to learn is that quiet neighborhoods are healthier and more desirable to sensible people from all demographics.
Questions abound, however. What happens to these ladies when their children leave home after college? Will they have to leave what has effectively become the family home, even though it is a rental, because their subsidies have decreased? Do they have the option of purchasing the home at some point, or will they have to find another place as rents naturally increase over time, perhaps faster than their income does?
I love the comment about appreciating the quiet. One thing that cities would do well to learn is that quiet neighborhoods are healthier and more desirable to sensible people from all demographics.
10
I think you need to ask what will happen in the neighborhoods they move to. Will these children be well behaved or bring gangs into the neighborhood?
1
She's sitting in her new home enjoying the quiet and appreciating that her children are safe for the first time. Your first thought is that she'll bring gangs into the neighborhood? Do you assume all poor people belong to gangs?
1
I was hoping this article was going to talk of subsidizing housing in Chappaqua, NY. It seems only right.
55
Some of the LIHTC communities I have seen in Weschester look quite luxurious from the curb.
What is the voucher, precisely? Is it an increased welfare package? Can every family get one? With so many working class and middle income families struggling, who exactly qualifies? Is it a gift or does the person have have to work for it on some level?
In schools, vouchers = public money that follows the child; it's a much-debated school choice reform, debated because it is taking the money and running to a better school, though of course there can be good reason to run. Still, it depletes the original school of funds, which could make them stronger. Here, I don't understand what funds these housing vouchers and who gets them, which leaves me skeptical.
Schools have long made this very mistake: They cater to the higher and lower performers, and the rest? Not so much.
In schools, vouchers = public money that follows the child; it's a much-debated school choice reform, debated because it is taking the money and running to a better school, though of course there can be good reason to run. Still, it depletes the original school of funds, which could make them stronger. Here, I don't understand what funds these housing vouchers and who gets them, which leaves me skeptical.
Schools have long made this very mistake: They cater to the higher and lower performers, and the rest? Not so much.
18
Vouchers, like all forms of welfare, are not a "gift" they are a right.
Google is your friend for questions like this:
http://portal.hud.gov/hudportal/HUD?src=/program_offices/public_indian_h...
http://portal.hud.gov/hudportal/HUD?src=/program_offices/public_indian_h...
I am happy people are able to live in better zip codes.
Yet, everyone cannot live in better zip codes, especially at the taxpayers expense.
How is this fair to the struggling families who live in cheap duplexes, apartments or ran down houses and dont receive a dime of subsidies?
Most lower middle class or upper lower class do not qualify for any govt support like food stamps, rent assistance, medical cards, heat assistance, cash, etc.
Yet again this group is left out, where is my subsidy?
Yet, everyone cannot live in better zip codes, especially at the taxpayers expense.
How is this fair to the struggling families who live in cheap duplexes, apartments or ran down houses and dont receive a dime of subsidies?
Most lower middle class or upper lower class do not qualify for any govt support like food stamps, rent assistance, medical cards, heat assistance, cash, etc.
Yet again this group is left out, where is my subsidy?
102
The fact that working and middle class families also need help should not stop us from helping the poorest and most desperate.
7
If u think living below the poverty line is so easy, go for it.
5
david, they already know poverty is not easy. That's why they work hard to live in the areas they do. The point is that they do work while many who don't abuse the system (that these taxpayers are paying for). This is something that you apparantly do not understand.
3
State-mandated discrimination. Anything to preempt federal law, huh? Texas shouldn't secede, they should be expelled from the United States.
6
Good for Texas. If the Feds are going to push social engineering from on high, it's only right that states have a say in it.
I can link up videos where they moved poor folks into middle class hoods only to see those hoods reduced to slums in short order.
Let the Feds experiment with NY or MD.
I can link up videos where they moved poor folks into middle class hoods only to see those hoods reduced to slums in short order.
Let the Feds experiment with NY or MD.
8
She works for the mortgage department at Bank of America and needs a voucher to live in a decent neighborhood?? Bank of America should be paying for her voucher!!
120
"She works for the mortgage department at Bank of America and needs a voucher to live in a decent neighborhood??"
Probably because she has 4 kids.
Probably because she has 4 kids.
56
Among other details, this makes the whole story very questionable. She has a job, a car and makes a middle class income -- why does she need a $1800 a month subsidy to live in a upscale area?
I am not saying she deserves to live in a slum either -- but is Dallas DEVOID of any middle class or working class suburbs? or a nice apartment? Why does she deserve a luxury home FOR NOTHING?
Also: when are we going to start asking questions and demanding answers like "why on earth did you have 4 kids when you can't support them?" or "Where are the FOUR FATHERS of these 4 kids?"
There is a very good chance at least one Baby Daddy -- or new boyfriend -- is secretly living with her, and mooching off the voucher. This is so commonplace as to be the norm. The same men also eat up much of the food provided for children via food stamps (SNAP).
I am not saying she deserves to live in a slum either -- but is Dallas DEVOID of any middle class or working class suburbs? or a nice apartment? Why does she deserve a luxury home FOR NOTHING?
Also: when are we going to start asking questions and demanding answers like "why on earth did you have 4 kids when you can't support them?" or "Where are the FOUR FATHERS of these 4 kids?"
There is a very good chance at least one Baby Daddy -- or new boyfriend -- is secretly living with her, and mooching off the voucher. This is so commonplace as to be the norm. The same men also eat up much of the food provided for children via food stamps (SNAP).
10
Why? Do you know how much she makes? How much she spends? I would assume the even if this is an entry level clerk job she is a bit above the minimum wage
You know why the Dallas schools can't meet the needs of kids? Because our district is run by "reformers" who want to increase testing, increase class sizes and withhold special education services.
Our latest superintendent, who lasted less than 3 years, was paid a base salary of $300,000. He hired dozens of non-teachers and paid them all over $100,000 each.
He received some sort of training from an Eli Broad outfit--think Michelle Rhee.
Frisco schools? No Broad-influenced administrators. No TFA. No "pay for performance" scheme that conveniently makes it nearly impossible for teachers to get a raise.
And yet liberals, who claim to care about low-income families and their burden of "bad schools" continue to support the very profiteers who are getting very rich by channeling money in urban districts away from the classroom and into their own pockets.
And when Mike Miles up and quit June 23? Our school board GAVE HIM $275,000 that could have gone to children as a "severance." Who pays a severance package to someone who quits?
I guarantee you Frisco wouldn't do that.
Our latest superintendent, who lasted less than 3 years, was paid a base salary of $300,000. He hired dozens of non-teachers and paid them all over $100,000 each.
He received some sort of training from an Eli Broad outfit--think Michelle Rhee.
Frisco schools? No Broad-influenced administrators. No TFA. No "pay for performance" scheme that conveniently makes it nearly impossible for teachers to get a raise.
And yet liberals, who claim to care about low-income families and their burden of "bad schools" continue to support the very profiteers who are getting very rich by channeling money in urban districts away from the classroom and into their own pockets.
And when Mike Miles up and quit June 23? Our school board GAVE HIM $275,000 that could have gone to children as a "severance." Who pays a severance package to someone who quits?
I guarantee you Frisco wouldn't do that.
34
Actually, school "Reform" is another one of those "conservative" ideas whose real objective is to transfer rents into our corporate masters pockets.
Real liberals are very aggressive and vocal about defending public schools, their budgets and actual teachers. It is Republicans like you who object to the unreasonable burden of property taxes who are so in favor of Reform.
Real liberals are very aggressive and vocal about defending public schools, their budgets and actual teachers. It is Republicans like you who object to the unreasonable burden of property taxes who are so in favor of Reform.
9
"And yet liberals ...continue to support the very profiteers who are getting very rich by channeling money in urban districts away from the classroom and into their own pockets."
Not this liberal.
Not this liberal.
11
No, it is not the liberals but the conservatives aka Republicans who support the voucher and charter schools. This retired teacher believes their motivation is to allow profiteering by private companies to feed at the government trough while they decry out of the other side of their mouths government aid for the needy. Jeb Bush as governor of Florida has about decimated our public system so that Big Ed can benifit off the backs of children and destroy the neighborhood schools and the teaching profession for the sake of the almighty buck, millions of them with their crony capitalism aka neoliberalism aka voodoo economics. Jeb is gonna face much questioning about his policies in Florida not the least being the state of the school system thanks to his programs.
7
Although probably not its intention, this is one of the best arguments against "place-based" regional economic policies that I have seen. If the government is going to be in the subsidy business, it ought to subsidize people not places.
7