Those in South Carolina that argue that the Confederate Flag is just a historical symbol of the old South is comparable to people in Germany arguing that flying the Nazi Flag is just a symbol of the Third Reich without the horrible, negative associations of that era. The Confederate Flag should have been removed one hundred and fifty years ago and it is about time to remove it from any governmental structures from which it hangs.
16
To further validate a couple of earlier commenters: (1) In the North Carolina history I was taught in school in the '50's our state's contribution to the confederacy was glorified/mythologized by the quote "First (to die) at Manassas, farthest (to penetrate Northern lines) at Gettysburg, last (to lay down arms) at Appomattox." And there was a bit about providing something like one-seventh of all the confederate soldiers (thanks to the efforts of war governor Z.B. Vance), which came about in part due to (2) conscription of primarily poor rural men who had no dog in that fight. My great-great grandfather was murdered by a conscription gang flying the same flag that he refused to fight under.
That flag represents one thing: treason against the United States of America in order to preserve an economy built on the back of human bondage. Call it for slavery or for "states' rights". Damn it and all it represents.
That flag represents one thing: treason against the United States of America in order to preserve an economy built on the back of human bondage. Call it for slavery or for "states' rights". Damn it and all it represents.
38
I believe that the stars and bars is a battle flag, not the flag representing the Confederate States of America. The hatred and abject ignorance of the pitiful soul who wielded that firearm had nothing to with the flag. The balance of his mind was upset probably by a lifetime of bad information, poor education and let's not forget chemical influence in the form of Suboxone. Why are folks not demanding answers from the pharmaceutical industry which pays whomever and whatever is necessary to get FDA approval of chemicals that affect us, all of us, in ways that are horrific to contemplate? May God have mercy on those evil people. His mercy has already been extended to those who died at the hands of a chemically-altered maniac. May they rest in peace in His hands and His peace be on their families.
1
Even with this decision liberals deride Haley. They criticize her for not taking it down sooner. Fair enough. But what was to prevent the Democrats who held office consecutively from 1876 to 1975. What prevented them from removing it
Fritz Hollings, a Democrat was governor from 1959-1963. He was also one of the12 Siuthern Democratic segregationists who tried to block civil rights. You'll rip Haley but elect a guy who stood four square against civil rights in his state? Yeah that makes sense
This flag represents pure evil and for Democrats to try and make this a wedge issue when South Carolina only has 3 Republicans governors since Reconstruction shows how little they know about the dominanc of Democrats in South Carolina politics. When you have nothing to run on wedge issues is all that's left
Fritz Hollings, a Democrat was governor from 1959-1963. He was also one of the12 Siuthern Democratic segregationists who tried to block civil rights. You'll rip Haley but elect a guy who stood four square against civil rights in his state? Yeah that makes sense
This flag represents pure evil and for Democrats to try and make this a wedge issue when South Carolina only has 3 Republicans governors since Reconstruction shows how little they know about the dominanc of Democrats in South Carolina politics. When you have nothing to run on wedge issues is all that's left
4
Where has the NYT been on this subject for the last 50+ years?
11
I never thought I'd see the day where the Republican Party actually, for once, got on the right side of history. It's a rare occasion. They cynical part of me knows they only did this because there is a Presidential election coming up.
11
Obviously the flag should be relegated to museums. But if that is done, do we all go home and forget about white supremacist terror, gun violence, racism?
4
This discussion about the Confederate flag is a distraction. The Confederacy was defeated by force at a horrible cost; failure to accept that is lunacy on the part of the Southerners. Failure to enforce it by the United States is equally puzzling. Take it down.
The real discussion should be about why and how we allow the board of directors of the NRA, through the shrill, screaming mouthpiece--it's Exec. Dir.-- to shape the discussion as to gun violence in this country. The President said it best--other civilized nations do not let this happen. Why do we? Does the majority of the NRA membership really believe that Second Amendment rights are threatened by controlling access to weapons by deranged young men? There is viable middle ground in this question, but the NRA has to move off the dime. Maybe it's time for moderate, sane people to join the NRA and change its internal politics.
The real discussion should be about why and how we allow the board of directors of the NRA, through the shrill, screaming mouthpiece--it's Exec. Dir.-- to shape the discussion as to gun violence in this country. The President said it best--other civilized nations do not let this happen. Why do we? Does the majority of the NRA membership really believe that Second Amendment rights are threatened by controlling access to weapons by deranged young men? There is viable middle ground in this question, but the NRA has to move off the dime. Maybe it's time for moderate, sane people to join the NRA and change its internal politics.
16
State sponsored censorship is the cornerstone of democracy, is it not?
While I welcome this, I am cynical that any systemic change of heart towards minorities within GOP-dominated state houses from south to north will be seen.
Are any of us foolish enough to imagine that the minority voter suppression legislation - from North Carolina to Ohio or from Florida to Wisconsin or from the bayous of Louisiana to the Roberts' Supreme Court- will experience a similar come-to-Jesus moment?
These modern (and many recently passed!) laws are as firmly rooted in hate and prejudice as surely as is the Stars and Bars.
Until America's dominant political party changes its stripes, they might as well continue to fly the flag.
Are any of us foolish enough to imagine that the minority voter suppression legislation - from North Carolina to Ohio or from Florida to Wisconsin or from the bayous of Louisiana to the Roberts' Supreme Court- will experience a similar come-to-Jesus moment?
These modern (and many recently passed!) laws are as firmly rooted in hate and prejudice as surely as is the Stars and Bars.
Until America's dominant political party changes its stripes, they might as well continue to fly the flag.
6
why isn't it considered treasonous to fly the confederate flag?
14
It is fascinating that the current Republicans who have defended the flying of the Confederate flag are members of the same party responsible for freeing the slaves, leading the war against the Confederates, and 'waving the Bloody Shirt' for years after the Civil War. And yet they were also chiefly responsible for the 1938 filibuster that defeated the anti-lynching bill and brought the flag back as a symbol of racial intolerance in the 20th century.
It may be time for the Grand Old "Party of Lincoln" to rethink what it stands for.
It may be time for the Grand Old "Party of Lincoln" to rethink what it stands for.
5
This debate should have been about guns and how to implement gun laws instead it has become about this flag. Yes it should go but guns should go first!
6
Even though we're experiencing an amazing "moment of Zen"--or unity--regarding taking down the Confederate Flag, it's necessary we avoid thinking that's all there is to it. Instead, we must remain focused on getting to the complex bottom of these murderous acts in addition to issues around guns, flags, and sick ideology. We must also understand and do something to prevent, as much as possible, the underlying deep-seated mental, psychological, developmental, environmental, even neurological issues which all or in part drive young men to go haywire, lose common human compassion, believe their disturbed thinking is truth; then seek out scapegoats upon which to take out their mental disturbance, distortions, and rage.
6
As someone who grew up in the South, I was never enamored with the Confederate flag. I knew early that the Civil War was fought for an unjust cause, largely my poor, uneducated farm boys who were under the spell of the upper classes in an aristocratic society.
Still, there were huge losses and few Southern families didn't lose sons, brothers, cousins and even fathers on the battlefield. The Confederate flag was a way to remember their sacrifice, not the unjust cause which Southerners rationalized as not about slavery. This is important: To them the flag wasn't about slavery or racism, as so many outside the South seem to think, in their ignorance.
But the war is long over now and no one remembers a son or brother or any close relative who died in it. The flag has outlived its usefulness and should be retired to history.
Still, there were huge losses and few Southern families didn't lose sons, brothers, cousins and even fathers on the battlefield. The Confederate flag was a way to remember their sacrifice, not the unjust cause which Southerners rationalized as not about slavery. This is important: To them the flag wasn't about slavery or racism, as so many outside the South seem to think, in their ignorance.
But the war is long over now and no one remembers a son or brother or any close relative who died in it. The flag has outlived its usefulness and should be retired to history.
5
Outlaw the Stars and Bars from any public display? OK, overlooking the obvious fact that you'll be creating a new cause and new martyrs, do it...but only if you also outlaw the Black Power raised fist and other indicia of extremist black politics and ideology. It's called a quid pro quo...or perhaps simple intellectual fairness. It cuts both ways.
2
How do we transform the image of the handgun in the same way many Southerners are transforming the Confederate flag?
10
Removing it from state property merely puts the decision into the hands of private citizens who, absent the implicit sanction of the non-existent consensus, will now fly that flag for themselves house by house car by car, sleeve by sleeve. I defend their right to it, and by all means, if they view this as an important declaration of freedom, let them make it, and let the outcomes be seen in their businesses and families.
7
Yes, the Confederate flag should come down. Yes, monuments "honoring" the traitors of the Confederacy should be removed.
But let's not forget that it wasn't a flag that killed the people at Emmanuel A.M.E. It wasn't a marble bust. It was a gun.
Politicians are using the Confederate flag as a convenient way of side-stepping the real issue here: the ease by which terrorists like Roof can obtained guns.
But let's not forget that it wasn't a flag that killed the people at Emmanuel A.M.E. It wasn't a marble bust. It was a gun.
Politicians are using the Confederate flag as a convenient way of side-stepping the real issue here: the ease by which terrorists like Roof can obtained guns.
8
Most of the German conscripted WWII soldiers, including my father, probably fought aus honorably as circumstances permitted - but we were properly taught to despise the flag under which almost infinite cruelty was perpetrated on a minority. I suppose the South has resisted to be confronted with and educated about a treasonous effort to maintain inhuman practices.
15
So what happened is that a 21 year old little kid shot 9 Afro-Americans in a church, Obama expressing his deepest sense of sadness and telling the Country that we have a long way to go. The US, rather than expressing similar personal feelings quickly (immediately) delved into some silly flag still used by South Carolina and several other states in the Deep South. Is that the best we can do, worrying about a flag rather than connecting black and white real people, the cancer of hatred within us all, the caving in of once a great Country. We've lost it.
3
Why don't they move those town square statues of confederate soldiers to a museum and replace them with statues of hometown heroes who died in Afghanistan defending the right of girls to get an education.
18
Wonderful idea, best I've heard in all these discussions !!!!!
6
As long as the U.S. solves its problems with bullets and bombs, and celebrates its president killing people, and accepts the dehumanization in the media of whole groups of people, the most unstable among us will continue to imitate that behavior.
6
Well that explains alot.
1
“Gov. Nikki Haley of South Carolina acted in the interest of her state and the nation on Monday when she called on the Legislature to remove the Confederate battle flag from the State Capitol grounds, after a white man charged with killing nine African-Americans was seen waving the flag in photographs”
A flag is a flag, a historic artifact.
A flag cannot persuade anybody to hate or commit a violent act. A flag is as dangerous as any building, a monument or any city dating from the civil war era.
However, the cable news outlets that intentionally spread the hatred across the nation and internet outlets obviously don’t bother anybody.
It’s the hateful speech that incites the individuals to commit the violent acts.
Why do we blame the flags and not the cable media outlets for violence, hatred and mass killings?
A flag is a flag, a historic artifact.
A flag cannot persuade anybody to hate or commit a violent act. A flag is as dangerous as any building, a monument or any city dating from the civil war era.
However, the cable news outlets that intentionally spread the hatred across the nation and internet outlets obviously don’t bother anybody.
It’s the hateful speech that incites the individuals to commit the violent acts.
Why do we blame the flags and not the cable media outlets for violence, hatred and mass killings?
2
We're not really blaming the flag as such, we're blaming the racist jerks who insist on proudly flying it. The flag, on one level, is just a colored piece of cloth, but it's a symbol and symbols have power. A person who wants to be a mean-spirited racist jerk is free to be just that. But I don't want to have look at the hateful symbols of his stupidity. Ever.
14
Before we elevate Nikki Haley to sainthood, perhaps restoring rights to all voters rather than enacting laws to disenfranchise minority voters might be a real measurement of South Carolina's transformation.
22
There's a lot of talk on this thread about states rights. And states rights were absolutely a driver for the civil war to start. However it was not a request for recognition of states rights that the southern states had a problem with it was because free states were able to free slaves who escaped from a slavery supporting state - and the real fight was about getting those states to send these slaves back and not free them. There is a ton of hypocrisy here. The flag represents hate and it's time to move on
8
To focus on the flag is a cop out....the issue is deeply embedded racism!!!!!!!!!
6
And while we are at it we should also take down the Mexican flag that is hung in many places in California. Where it is a symbol of aggressive hatred that fuels large scale Hispanic killing of blacks, is a declaration of an alleged right of the descendants of Cortex to invade and violate all manner of laws - pillage and plunder the rainbow nation of naïve 'lazy' "nativists" north of the border, as they continue to do to the indigenous peoples south of the border.
I am living in the Deep South - Alabama to be exact. It is impossible to find a branch of my family that did not choose to fight for the Confederacy. And yet, I do not belong to any Daughters of the Confederacy chapter nor do I have that desire. I am proud to be from the South, but all areas of our country have things in their past that are better left in the past.
The Civil War was about a lot of things. For some living in that time, it was about states rights, while for others it was for the right to keep their slave labor. They are not necessarily mutually exclusive. And 150 years later, we can only speculate why our ancestors chose one side or the other.
The Confederate flags have their place - but it is not anywhere on a state capital ground or dome. It belongs at a Confederate museum, on Confederate soldiers graves, on Confederate memorials that are not part of any government grounds.
We are all together in this world. I only wish everyone would remember that and learn to be tolerate of others who have different ideas, skin colors, religious beliefs or lifestyles.
The Civil War was about a lot of things. For some living in that time, it was about states rights, while for others it was for the right to keep their slave labor. They are not necessarily mutually exclusive. And 150 years later, we can only speculate why our ancestors chose one side or the other.
The Confederate flags have their place - but it is not anywhere on a state capital ground or dome. It belongs at a Confederate museum, on Confederate soldiers graves, on Confederate memorials that are not part of any government grounds.
We are all together in this world. I only wish everyone would remember that and learn to be tolerate of others who have different ideas, skin colors, religious beliefs or lifestyles.
5
My ancestors fought for the South, and music class in the '50s had "Dixie" as standard repertoire. But they were wrong. I am an American who volunteered to fight for my country, right reasons but I was naive and it was certainly the wrong war. The Confederate flag represents those who tried to destroy my country for reasons that should be repugnant to any compassionate human being.
Want to honor Confederate dead? Do them the honor of thinking through what and why they were fighting, and cry for the fact that they died for such a misbegotten cause.
Want to honor Confederate dead? Do them the honor of thinking through what and why they were fighting, and cry for the fact that they died for such a misbegotten cause.
11
If the Confederate flag must come down, so must the memorial for confederate soldiers be torn down. We should rename Washington to something else because Washington held slaves, and skirted the Pennsylvania laws about freeing slaves by having his wife take them back periodically to Virginia.
Looks like the politicians are exploiting a tragedy to score political points. Dylann Roof was a deranged man; the gun did not make him shoot nor did the flag.
If the flag is taken down, how are they going to ban the flag and keep it from being held sacred by lunatic fringe?
If anything, removing the flag from the memorial site will make those whose forefathers fought for confederacy more racist, and exacerbate already bad race relations in the south.
Bad call.
Looks like the politicians are exploiting a tragedy to score political points. Dylann Roof was a deranged man; the gun did not make him shoot nor did the flag.
If the flag is taken down, how are they going to ban the flag and keep it from being held sacred by lunatic fringe?
If anything, removing the flag from the memorial site will make those whose forefathers fought for confederacy more racist, and exacerbate already bad race relations in the south.
Bad call.
7
Well, evidently you missed the part where you still have the right make a first admendment AND a fashion statement by tatooing it on a forehead. States which at least in theory, must serve all its peoples - need to at least seem to respect all its people too. The flag respresents the treason of a people who killed millions so they could prosper, worked them the whip until they died, raped them, molest them, broke familess - wow and you claim them as kin?
2
False equivalency. The Confederate battle flag was part of the Civil War which the South fought to preserve slavery. There is an enormous difference in rebelling against the United States of America to protect an economy and society based on slave labor and George Washington's role in founding the United States of America. Washington himself went out with troops to put down a rebellion.
And many in the South who fly the Confederate flag will remain racist, and they will continue to privately fly it. That is abhorrent but completely their right. The symbol of slavery, rebellion, and hatred should never be officially flown by Americans.
And many in the South who fly the Confederate flag will remain racist, and they will continue to privately fly it. That is abhorrent but completely their right. The symbol of slavery, rebellion, and hatred should never be officially flown by Americans.
2
What kind of argument is this? Let us celebrate the worst things about us in remembrance? Washington's good overwhelmed his bad. Now just exactly what "good" has the confederate flag come to symbolize? No Analita, don't ask my country to descend to your level.
9
If South Carolina refuses to remove the confederate flag, and all monuments to those who opposed equality, there should be a nationwide boycott of the state.
5
Already happens, SC can't attract much interest except from those seeking low wage docile workers. The SC business motto is "would you like fries with that?". USA did a nice article about it
1
I am a child of the 50's and 60's South. I have lived many years in NY Long Island. I never saw such hatred for Blacks, outright racism and condescending false-superiority over "others" as I saw in NY. I was shocked how people in the North, and NY especially, spoke of and treated Blacks in their midst.
1
There is no honor, no reason, no possible justification for this flag to fly anywhere, anytime in this country. Too many died defeating it, too many still do.
7
Set that Confederate flag on fire and string it up from the nearest tree.
10
Rather ironically, let it be known that Dylan Root is the man that brought ole Dixie down.
9
Too many people claim that the confederate flag honors their ancestors who fought and died for the Southern way of life. My ancestors also fought for the South during the Civil War, but almost certainly not by choice. The South used conscription, scooping up the less fortunate. Wealthy landowners, those who owned slaves - and who benefited most from the South's exploitative economic system, generally did not fight THEIR war; they were needed to keep their plantations running lest the economy collapse. Most who fought for the South did not own slaves (or much of anything) and were also oppressed by that economic system, though much less so than were slaves.
Those now defending that flag because their ancestors fought for it need to take a hard look at their ancestors. I suspect that most were poor white trash, like my ancestors, whose lot was actually improved by the elimination of an unfair and oppressive economic system.
Once they consider the facts, if they still support that flag, it's for other reasons.
Those now defending that flag because their ancestors fought for it need to take a hard look at their ancestors. I suspect that most were poor white trash, like my ancestors, whose lot was actually improved by the elimination of an unfair and oppressive economic system.
Once they consider the facts, if they still support that flag, it's for other reasons.
15
I have read comments here that one can not understand the South without living there. I was born and raised in western NY, but in my military career, I spent enough time in segregated Georgia, Alabama and Florida to get a pretty good handle on Dixie. My opinion is that Dixie is a drag on the rest of our nation. It remains backward in many ways, encouraged by evangelical fundamentalism. It is also greatly influenced by corporate interests that play up distorted "family issue" hatreds in order to get Southeners to despise the New Deal of FDR, and especially, labor unions. I think we might be better off if Lincoln had permitted secession, while at the same time, encouraging Black flight to the North. Certainly hundreds of thousands of lives would spared.
11
Also, they can't seem to eat anything unless it's fried. And who needs jazz, rock n' roll, the blues, blue-grass, country, Johnny Cash, the Allman Brothers, William Faulkner, Truman Capote anyway? I'm sure the North could get by without all this southern culture. There's always Rachmaninoff and Mozart if nothing else emerges.
2
The persistent mythology of a romantic southern struggle against northern aggression should be carefully examined for what it actually was and is. Perhaps, then southerners will see the errors embedded in the fantasy perpetuated by the many who think Gone With the Wind is based on real history.
I can think of no better place to start than with the song Dixie, which was co-opted by the south and actually was written as a satirical criticism of southern delusions and slavery. Of course, that's not the only thing the south
has mis-apprehended in it's insistence of a noble cause that only Disney studios could do justice to. Or should we accept racism as merely symbolic?
I can think of no better place to start than with the song Dixie, which was co-opted by the south and actually was written as a satirical criticism of southern delusions and slavery. Of course, that's not the only thing the south
has mis-apprehended in it's insistence of a noble cause that only Disney studios could do justice to. Or should we accept racism as merely symbolic?
5
The truth is this, that flag should never have been allowed to fly ANYPLACE in the nation since the end of the Civil War with perhaps two exceptions. A: At the graves of those who died for what they believed and B: in museums. That was the Battle Flag for those who wanted people kept as slaves. And, if memory serves me correctly when the wack=a=mole ( wait let me goggle his name) Nathan Bedford Forest founded the K K K he did so under THAT flag. It is, as I said, long past it;s expiration date.
11
That Confederate flag does not represent anything honorable or good, no matter how many of our ancestors fought under it. In particular it never represented the 60 percent of South Carolina's population when war was declared.
In South Carolina in particular, it represents the cruel power possessed by a relative handful of wealthy white slaveowners who controlled the state government, who chose presidential electors without a popular vote, who unanimously voted to secede because their slaveholding was more important than the Union.
South Carolina fired the first shots against the Union, not because Fort Sumter was so important, but because they speculated, rightly, that starting the war would provoke the border states and those than were wavering into joining their doomed adventure.
As someone born and reared in the Deep South, I remember the eruption of Confederate flags from car antennas and everywhere else after the 1954 Supreme Court decision in effect ending the separate but equal rule.
That flag in war few over slaveowners who shamed humanity as well honorable non-slaveowners who properly called it, "A rich man's war and the poor man's fight."
That flag flew over states where slaves were considered no more than property, but property that gave national political power to their owners through the 3/5ths compromise.
It stands for nothing good and its post Civil War usage has damned it as a racist banner.
In South Carolina in particular, it represents the cruel power possessed by a relative handful of wealthy white slaveowners who controlled the state government, who chose presidential electors without a popular vote, who unanimously voted to secede because their slaveholding was more important than the Union.
South Carolina fired the first shots against the Union, not because Fort Sumter was so important, but because they speculated, rightly, that starting the war would provoke the border states and those than were wavering into joining their doomed adventure.
As someone born and reared in the Deep South, I remember the eruption of Confederate flags from car antennas and everywhere else after the 1954 Supreme Court decision in effect ending the separate but equal rule.
That flag in war few over slaveowners who shamed humanity as well honorable non-slaveowners who properly called it, "A rich man's war and the poor man's fight."
That flag flew over states where slaves were considered no more than property, but property that gave national political power to their owners through the 3/5ths compromise.
It stands for nothing good and its post Civil War usage has damned it as a racist banner.
13
How did the response to the murderous actions of a white supremacist get boiled sown to "Should South Carolina quit flying the Confederate flag over state buildings?" There are much, much larger issues involved. Yes, they should quit flying that flag, should have quit years ago, but there's business to be done -- business like combating white supremacy as an ideology, and like the easy availability of weapons of mass destruction to any sicko that decides he wants to shoot up a church. Yes, a revolver is a weapon is a weapon of mass destruction, which makes wholesale slaughter much easier.
3
Let's stop with the knee-jerk reactions to this and many other issues that are complex and have many facets that should be thought out. This entire racism narrative is being drafted by race-baiters, elitist liberals who exist in vacuums, the pandering/patronizing politicians who so often are quick to over-react and get things wrong, and those who wish to blame others or make excuses for social/cultural failures. Time to declare a pause or time-out. And, yes, let's have that national discussion on race that Eric Holder said we didn't have the courage to hold. Our nation sorely needs that.
2
And for those folks who think the Confederate flag doesn't impact you because you are not black, well, the defenders of the Confederate flag will be coming after you (not in a good way) eventually because they don't like you either.
5
Denmark Vesey: I recently found out that my "great"-grandfather was the owner of Denmark Vesey, something I am far from proud of. I guess this likely makes me a "son-of-the-confederacy", which I am not proud of either. The confederate battle flag was used to form a rally point in battle and obviously is being used for the same purpose today for such people as the for the Council of Conservative Citizens. That is reason enough for me to want to completely ban the flying of this flag, just as the Germans have done regarding the swastika flag.
35
As citizens of the USA, aren't all of us somehow related to the owner of Denmark Vesey?
Sure, it's heritage.
The heritage of slavery, whippings, lynchings, insurrection, treason, war, death, destruction, assassinations, Jim Crow, poll taxes, the Ku Klux Klan, white supremacy, murder and hate, hate, hate.
That's the heritage this flag commemorates.
Did I miss anything?
The heritage of slavery, whippings, lynchings, insurrection, treason, war, death, destruction, assassinations, Jim Crow, poll taxes, the Ku Klux Klan, white supremacy, murder and hate, hate, hate.
That's the heritage this flag commemorates.
Did I miss anything?
14
Yes. You missed the fact that the number 1 importer of African people into this country were the ship owners of Massachusetts, Connecticut and Rhode Island. They were the "good upstanding citizens" who made the most profit from slavery. They were the ones who were making fortunes from rum and slaves.
Mostly, this is a 'feel good' moment. Something horrific occurs, and folks now latch onto something, anything - in this case the Confederate flag - because a very misguided, mentally sick youth waved it in a picture. So now, this flag joins the Nazi flag in the too-taboo-to-display genre. And even though we sadly have homes where it is displayed with pride, so too will the Confederate flag albeit perhaps just as subtly. Unfortunately, a small percentage of Americans have distorted, and twisted this symbol into what it now represents, and for this we all pay a price. I agree at this point, it should be removed from all official recognition, but history is history, shameful as it is in this regard. Things like this never really, fully, go away. There are far more deeper problems to 'remove' from society than the instant warm and fuzzy feel good moment this may be bringing to everyone who may be offended by what this flag represents to them.
1
I believe the flag should be removed from government buildings. Having said that, let's stop the facile comparisons to the Nazi swastika. Different time and place, with vastly different circumstances and results. If a gentleman named Abraham Lincoln decided to "let them down easy," that's a much better guide for me than the spate of 21st century William Garrison impersonators pontificating on this page.
5
Take it down forever. If not now, when?
3
What other country honors its traitors and the lowest of the low lives? What this "symbol" is a heritage of is the brutal subjugation of a people for money. And the nation has inherited this brutality not only in the systemic bias against black lives and interests, but also in its gun laws, primarily the Second Amendment. This amendment was another constitutional insertion to placate slaveholders who institutionalized militias to prevent slave insurrections and escapes. Far from "protecting our freedoms" from a jackbooted government, it was a bulwark against the freedom of millions.
11
If anyone were traitors, it was the few men in Philadelphia who penned and approved the Declaration Independence. They revolted against a powerful country who at the time legalized slavery in their own country and in all their colonies including our colonies. When these American colonists freed themselves from slave-holding Britain, they raised their own flag while still owning slaves. Slavery was the law throughout the entire country in 1783. The flag that perpetuated slavery for the longest period in our history is the American Stars and Stripes.
1
There is no question that fairness demands that the Confederate flag be removed from any public places controlled by any government jurisdiction anywhere in the U.S.A. But for racism and the ignorance that allows it, that flag would have been banned long ago. It is a long road to justice and equality.
3
To Confederate Flag apologists: Find me a Nazi flag that flies freely on government property in Germany or Austria.
4
Charleston was a horrific event but the Times seem bent on using what was the act of a lone player, racist though he may be, to revive the specter of the KKK.
Murder is horrible, but everyday in the US inner cities, an internecine war goes on and the bodies, mostly Black, pile up. Yet the Times would prefer to spend its editorial and reportorial energies on what is certainly a horrific act, but one that accounts for only an incredibly small percentage of annual murders -- while ignoring inner city violence.
One wonders why. Take today's front page where the Times details the very small political donations (at least in Clintonian terms) of a group to GOP politicians while ignoring Hillary's donations and foundation. Why this effort to revive the idea that racism is alive and flourishing, particularly in the South.
Forgive my naivety, but the answer now seems obvious. There is no political benefit for the Times or the left to report the tragic carnage of Black on Black crime while there is great political advantage in convincing Blacks that racism is alive, rooted in the GOP and in red states. After all, the vote must be gotten out, and let's face it, Hillary is not the candidate for that.
Is the Times coverage truly rooted in moral outrage, or is it a more cynical effort to convince Blacks that the democratic party is their only hope for the future?
One wonders.
Murder is horrible, but everyday in the US inner cities, an internecine war goes on and the bodies, mostly Black, pile up. Yet the Times would prefer to spend its editorial and reportorial energies on what is certainly a horrific act, but one that accounts for only an incredibly small percentage of annual murders -- while ignoring inner city violence.
One wonders why. Take today's front page where the Times details the very small political donations (at least in Clintonian terms) of a group to GOP politicians while ignoring Hillary's donations and foundation. Why this effort to revive the idea that racism is alive and flourishing, particularly in the South.
Forgive my naivety, but the answer now seems obvious. There is no political benefit for the Times or the left to report the tragic carnage of Black on Black crime while there is great political advantage in convincing Blacks that racism is alive, rooted in the GOP and in red states. After all, the vote must be gotten out, and let's face it, Hillary is not the candidate for that.
Is the Times coverage truly rooted in moral outrage, or is it a more cynical effort to convince Blacks that the democratic party is their only hope for the future?
One wonders.
1
I think we need a shift in our moral compass, which for the most part is directed to the inner of the concentric circles of morality. As a southerner, I have no doubt, which includes a sense of admiration, for the personal virtues of my forebears. Indeed, I'm humbled by their effort, devotion to family, church and community. But they rationalized that blacks were inferior, inculcated by the state, which included an education, culture of racism and incredibly, reinforced within the halls of those infallible white churches. These were not educated people so there was little in their learning(what little there was between planting and harvest seasons to be suspicious. However, this racism works both ways. There is a widespread lack of responsibility among the African American race as well, a hooliganism they blame on the other race or the authorities. This is not bigotry because the statistics bear out its prevalence along racial lines. That is not to underestimate the root causes, which gets only sound bite soap opera attention. Until this occurs, a broader awareness, indeed a paradigm shift in our moral compass, along with substantive remedies, social division and worse will likely occur.
The Confederate flag stands for treason and sedition. It has no place on a government building.
10
By that standard, Great Britain should also ban flying the US Flag, as it is a symbol of treason and sedition against the Empire.
Except that the United States won and was formally recognized as an independent state by the UK; the confederacy was defeated. This is a poorly thought out and reactionary comparison. The better comparison might be whether or not the Tudors allowed the White Rose flag to be flown after Bosworth, or if a Northern Irish statehouse would be allowed to fly an IRA flag...
2
Then neither does the American Stars and Stripes have a place on public buildings. It was born out of treason and sedition. Remember that little war of 1775 to 1783? Folks such as George Washington (oops! a slave-holder. Must change the name of the Capital City), Tom Jefferson (Oops! another slave- holder. Must hide the Declaration of Independence) and John and Sam Adams. All absolutely traitors and seditionists.
1
Taking down the Confederate Flag is a knee-jerking reaction to the murders in Charleston, S.C., that would understandably be supported by the newspapers of the East and Deep North. Let the Southerners fly their flag and sing "Dixie", which can well be done while fighting for racial equality and a society free of crime.
It would only have been "knee-jerking" in 1864.
The war ended in 1865.
It's time to join the 21st century and remove this divisive, oppressive artifact from all government property.
The war ended in 1865.
It's time to join the 21st century and remove this divisive, oppressive artifact from all government property.
1
A 19th century flag of division, oppression and inequality.
It's been displayed 150 years too long.
Take it down.
It's been displayed 150 years too long.
Take it down.
8
News Flash:
WALMART will no longer be selling the Confederate Flag.
But come on down!
Walmart will still have a generous supply of rifles, pistols and all the bullets you need!
Loss of revenue from not selling Confederate Flags versus potential loss of revenue from taking those guns and bullets off the shelf.
Brave move, by Walmart.
WALMART will no longer be selling the Confederate Flag.
But come on down!
Walmart will still have a generous supply of rifles, pistols and all the bullets you need!
Loss of revenue from not selling Confederate Flags versus potential loss of revenue from taking those guns and bullets off the shelf.
Brave move, by Walmart.
7
I tend to agree with Lindsey Graham's first statement that the flag is "part of who we are." The flag is a constant reminder of the prejudice and hatred that foment within this country. It is a symbol of the racist element that continues to exist and that has been so obvious under the administration of the first Black president of the United States, Barack Obama. Let it fly there as long as it takes for us as a nation to alter our perspective from what "we are" to "what we were."
16
I live in Mississippi and work in New Orleans. I find it ironic in a town that is about as biracial with equanimity as can be gotten that metro New Orleans is sandwiched by statues of unrepentant rebels--Robert E. Lee (who made a cottage industry of being graceful in his battlefield stupidity), P. G. T. Beauregard (who fleeced the Louisiana Lottery) and Albert Sidney Johnston (a traitor who left his California post to wreak mayhem on the USA). Lee and Beauregard should have been hanged after the war. Johnston fortunately was already dead. We are burdened by their legacy with a social situation created by not dealing with these men and their ilk in the moment and by not salving the wounds of slavery by actively welcoming these forced immigrants into full citizenship.
6
I'm heartened to read in these comments that in our scientific world many come to see the flag as so much more than fabric, pigment and thread. Symbols represent something - something that points beyond itself. That something is real, which cannot be explained in terms of mathematics or the physical. It's the meta-physical symbolism that has stirred such emotion and passion. Something truly sets man apart.
3
The Confederate flag known as the "Stars and Bars" was flown to rally Southern troops during battle. It is indeed offensive to any who espouse civil rights and equality for all people, but it never actually stood for slavery. The true Confederate States flag looks completely different: It flew over the C.S.A. capitol in Richmond, and it does symbolize the southern cause, which fostered slavery as a way of life and the basis of a would-be country's economy. This is the truly offensive flag, but hardly anyone ever sees it anywhere.
Anything with 'Confederate' attached to it is offensive.
1
My family has been southern since arriving in the mid 1600's. Three great-grandfathers and a great-great-grandfather served in the CSA army. I grew up reading about the Civil War and hearing tales passed down the family line. I was proud of the Stars & Bars. Older now, I accept that flag as a part of our history, and for that reason, let us display it in museums and Civil War presentations, not public buildings where it offends so many. There is no reason we can't remember our history, honor our ancestors, and show compassion at the same time.
7
It is remarkable that we have so many in our country and on this board are prone to rationalize the symbols of racism in our country.
Despite what the apologists here may think, the Confederate battle flag did not stand for defense of "family and home" or a symbol to challenge "northern arrogance."
Instead, the Confederate battle flag is a symbol of the worst in of us in which intolerance, bigotry and racism are easily dismissed by feeble rationalization.
Because in the end, hate and its symbols will never be eliminated by equivocation, but a clarity and firmness of heart that says we cannot tolerate what is wrong.
Despite what the apologists here may think, the Confederate battle flag did not stand for defense of "family and home" or a symbol to challenge "northern arrogance."
Instead, the Confederate battle flag is a symbol of the worst in of us in which intolerance, bigotry and racism are easily dismissed by feeble rationalization.
Because in the end, hate and its symbols will never be eliminated by equivocation, but a clarity and firmness of heart that says we cannot tolerate what is wrong.
8
The focus on the flag allows Northerners off the hook. While I support removing the flag from the state house, we need to look at ourselves -- all of us. That young man acted on a national sickness, not a Southern one, and all of us need to stamp it out, not just Southerners.
6
Those who say that "it's only a symbol, not a big deal," think about how you feel whenever someone burns an American flag.
5
The Confederate flag is a shining example of failure. Why they want a constant reminder of what losers they are, is beyond me.
9
A question that white South Carolinians must decide: Is the pride that they feel for the role that a long-dead ancestor played in a war to preserve slavery worth the pain that this symbol gives to those who ancestors were enslaved -- namely, their black neighbors?
9
It's a red herring for gun control.
1
Not only is the Confederate flag a symbol of racism, hate and defending slavery which is insulting to every American- not just African-Americans.
It is also a symbol of a treasonous uprising in which almost a million people died successfully preserving the union. I had ancestors who fought in the Union army during this war. This war cost all of America lost lives and lost treasure. It also cost one of the truly great presidents his life by an assassin's bullet.
Seeing the Confederate flag displayed in several southern states- not just SC- is just as disgusting as it would be for Germany to honor their soldiers in WW2 by flying the Nazi flag.
The South is still fighting the civil war which was totally about preserving slavery- which was just about the money and free labor. There is nothing honorable about the confederate flag- not one darn thing.
It is also a symbol of a treasonous uprising in which almost a million people died successfully preserving the union. I had ancestors who fought in the Union army during this war. This war cost all of America lost lives and lost treasure. It also cost one of the truly great presidents his life by an assassin's bullet.
Seeing the Confederate flag displayed in several southern states- not just SC- is just as disgusting as it would be for Germany to honor their soldiers in WW2 by flying the Nazi flag.
The South is still fighting the civil war which was totally about preserving slavery- which was just about the money and free labor. There is nothing honorable about the confederate flag- not one darn thing.
11
Your comment is especially relevant to South Carolina -- whose citizens initiated that dreadful conflict.
2
The lively and deeply felt comments opposing display of the Confederate battle flag are encouraging, but they are also puzzling, if one assumes that the writers are not all under the age of 40.
The Confederate battle flag has been offensive and threatening since it first began to be used as a symbol of resistance to integration and to oppose voting rights for black Americans. Some of us are old enough to remember how the Stars and Bars was waved by supporters of Orval Faubus in the 1950s, and of George Wallace in the 1960s and again in the 1980s.
Where has all of the outrage over the Stars and Bars been until the last few days? Were there editorials in the New York Times about the hateful symbolism of the rebel flag 30 or 40 or 50 years ago? Perhaps there were such editorials, but the current furor seems to be a direct result of the tragedy in Charleston a few days ago. At least something positive is coming from the needless loss of nine lives.
The Confederate battle flag has been offensive and threatening since it first began to be used as a symbol of resistance to integration and to oppose voting rights for black Americans. Some of us are old enough to remember how the Stars and Bars was waved by supporters of Orval Faubus in the 1950s, and of George Wallace in the 1960s and again in the 1980s.
Where has all of the outrage over the Stars and Bars been until the last few days? Were there editorials in the New York Times about the hateful symbolism of the rebel flag 30 or 40 or 50 years ago? Perhaps there were such editorials, but the current furor seems to be a direct result of the tragedy in Charleston a few days ago. At least something positive is coming from the needless loss of nine lives.
7
Just curious about the whole heritage issue, the POV that ignores the slavery and rebellion issues:
Why must the battle flag be flown in public spaces? How many Southerners, black, white, and everything else, claim the Stars and Bars as a flag of their heritage? If Black Southerners demanded a flag to commemorate *their* heritage flown at equal standing to the Confederate battle flag, how much support would that get? And how could anyone deny them that, if the Confederate battle flag is flown? Why is this even still an issue?
Why must the battle flag be flown in public spaces? How many Southerners, black, white, and everything else, claim the Stars and Bars as a flag of their heritage? If Black Southerners demanded a flag to commemorate *their* heritage flown at equal standing to the Confederate battle flag, how much support would that get? And how could anyone deny them that, if the Confederate battle flag is flown? Why is this even still an issue?
7
I read someplace that "our skin--the largest organ of our body--was created to hold us together; not (because of its color) tear us apart." I believe that's also the purpose of flags.
And although we're experiencing some refreshing "Phoenix rising from the ashes" "take down that flag" and other such unifying moments, we must remain focused on finding, understanding, and doing something about the deep-seated mental, psychological, developmental, and even neurological issues (in addition to guns, flags, and sick ideology) that drive young men to go haywire, lose common human compassion, believe that their disordered, disturbed, thinking is truth; then seek out scapegoats upon which to take out their mental distortions and rage.
If the roots of out of control garden weeds aren't removed, the weeds will return again and again.
And although we're experiencing some refreshing "Phoenix rising from the ashes" "take down that flag" and other such unifying moments, we must remain focused on finding, understanding, and doing something about the deep-seated mental, psychological, developmental, and even neurological issues (in addition to guns, flags, and sick ideology) that drive young men to go haywire, lose common human compassion, believe that their disordered, disturbed, thinking is truth; then seek out scapegoats upon which to take out their mental distortions and rage.
If the roots of out of control garden weeds aren't removed, the weeds will return again and again.
2
Our great Union was preserved, 150 years ago. Symbolizing high treason is unAmerican. Get over it. And keep your remaining hatred out of other people's lives......
4
Forcing the removal of the Confederate flag is collective punishment for an individual act. If anyone thinks this will solve anything with respect to racism they are deluding themselves. More likely is that those who look at that flag in a different way that the "progressives" will become agitated resulting in a widening of divisions rather than a narrowing. Typical "progressive" feel good measure that actually makes things worse.
So the flag will come down - but the agenda will continue. Racism is too powerful a tool for the GOP to motivate its base to walk away from. They'll just get subtler about it for a while, all the time working to turn back the clock on affirmative action, voting rights, fair housing, equal justice... all the time dog-whistling like mad about foodstamp presidents and welfare voters.
This is how the modern rebellion against the Federal government works - destroy it from the inside; pack the courts and let billionaires buy themselves a Congress and the 50 states piecemeal.
This is how the modern rebellion against the Federal government works - destroy it from the inside; pack the courts and let billionaires buy themselves a Congress and the 50 states piecemeal.
4
Sorry, but my state representative in the white-collar, conservative, suburban town where I live is a young, black Republican. Sorry, but the GOP tent is larger than you think and much larger than the Eastern arrogant press wants you to know.
Think about it:
Democrats- one billionaire white woman from NY
Republics: White, Asian, Black, Brown, Hispanic (and mostly southern)
Shhhhh... don't mention the obvious to anybody.
Think about it:
Democrats- one billionaire white woman from NY
Republics: White, Asian, Black, Brown, Hispanic (and mostly southern)
Shhhhh... don't mention the obvious to anybody.
1
It should not take the racially motivated massacre of nine black churchgoers for Nikki Haley, Lindsey Graham, Scott Walker, or any other white politician to acknowledge that for most Americans, including plenty of whites who know perfectly well what the South was fighting for, the Confederate flag is a deeply offensive symbol that has no business being flown on any government building, anywhere.
5
Striking parallels exist between the legacy of Nazi Germany and the heritage of the Confederacy and its rebel flag. The Confederacy's struggle to preserve the "peculiar institution" of slavery was an attempt to resist the democratic ideals sweeping the Western world. While other enlightened nations were rejecting the barbarity of human bondage, the South still clung to the remnants of a shameful past. Likewise, Nazi Germany's visions of world conquest and racial purity were a return to the savageness of the Dark Ages.
The crimes of the Nazi state were perhaps more shocking than those of the Confederacy because the Germans regressed from modernity to primitive cruelty. In the 1860s, the South had not yet progressed to a modern mindset. Even more than a century later, it is painfully obvious that the South has made few steps away from its abject backwardness. Anyone who does not acknowledge that today, this flag stands for murder, lynching, rape and treason cannot be regarded as possessing good judgement.
The crimes of the Nazi state were perhaps more shocking than those of the Confederacy because the Germans regressed from modernity to primitive cruelty. In the 1860s, the South had not yet progressed to a modern mindset. Even more than a century later, it is painfully obvious that the South has made few steps away from its abject backwardness. Anyone who does not acknowledge that today, this flag stands for murder, lynching, rape and treason cannot be regarded as possessing good judgement.
5
That is a good and fair article.
Perhaps, many non southerners see this as the south making fore front steps
which others should follow and not think of southerners as being behind on the
times. In reality, compared to most of the southern states, race relations in other parts of the country are behind on the times. By age, many natives to this part of the country, including myself, have either had to change with the times, grow up while the changes or be young and mindful by following through with the positive change having taken place. Regardless, it is a matter of loving one another and simply being mindful of our strengths, weaknesses, similarities an differences.
Perhaps, many non southerners see this as the south making fore front steps
which others should follow and not think of southerners as being behind on the
times. In reality, compared to most of the southern states, race relations in other parts of the country are behind on the times. By age, many natives to this part of the country, including myself, have either had to change with the times, grow up while the changes or be young and mindful by following through with the positive change having taken place. Regardless, it is a matter of loving one another and simply being mindful of our strengths, weaknesses, similarities an differences.
As a Yankee, who's ancestors were abolitionist that fought against slavery we paid a heavy price defeating the south. Most of the Trowbridges from our clan died at places like Shiloh, Chickamauga, and Missionary Ridge. There's always been an active debate in our family whether the South got off easy; Some would have left scorched earth.
It is an insult to Lincoln and those who fought to preserve the Union to allow the vanquished traitors their flag. Let it be consigned to the museums. Let us go forward as citizens of the United States, not the United States of America.
It is an insult to Lincoln and those who fought to preserve the Union to allow the vanquished traitors their flag. Let it be consigned to the museums. Let us go forward as citizens of the United States, not the United States of America.
7
This "" movement has been around a long time, always trying to spin the Confederates as noble businessmen, sipping mint juleps as their happy slaves toil effortlessly on their plantations. After all, these noble Confederates simply fought for state rights, and they were smarter, but they were overwhelmed by sheer numbers of the brutal Union army.
Assign these Confederate symbols, whether a flag, license plate or the Confederate general names of ten US Army bases to a museum or the dustbin of history they so richly deserve. The Union won, get over it.
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/05/26/opinion/sunday/misplaced-honor.html
Assign these Confederate symbols, whether a flag, license plate or the Confederate general names of ten US Army bases to a museum or the dustbin of history they so richly deserve. The Union won, get over it.
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/05/26/opinion/sunday/misplaced-honor.html
5
South Carolina has a particular problem with the Confederate flag issue because they were the the first state to secede from the Union in 1860, and then the Civil War started there at Fort Sumter in December of that year. 150 years later they may feel a stronger sense of loyalty to the Stars and Bars because of these facts but that doesn't make such loyalty appropriate in today's world. In the summer of 1993 I was in New Port Richey, Florida when government officials in the St Petersburg area decided to remove the Confederate flag from all government buildings in their jurisdictions. I put a letter in The "St Petersburg Times" praising these actions and promptly found myself in a long argument with one of the Sons of Confederate veterans. He started giving me all this nonsense about "states' rights" to which I responded "The right to do what? The right to practice slavery, that's what!" That's the particular "right of a state" that the Civil War was fought over. In South Carolina, 2015 we're talking about the right of a state to retain a mindset of the mid-19th Century that has long since been discredited and is a serious threat to the quality of life lived by Americans today. Conservatives in the American South who want to retain the values of racial oppression and white supremacy that prevailed 150 or more years ago are free leave the USA to find another, less civilized country to live in.
8
This is probably the first NYT OP-ED that I've agreed with in decades.
2
What is it going to be, the Southern way of life or the American way of life. The Confederate battle flag is incompatable with the Stars and Stripes. The neo-confederate are insurrectionists who seek to overthrow the govt of the USA. Some prefer the Nazi flag to our own. These people are traitors pretending to be super patriots.
7
The Civil War was fought over the issue of slavery. Thus, the Confederate flag. I see no difference between banning the flagrant display of this flag and the Nazi flag. Both symbolize, and still inspire, racial hatred.
7
Personally, I don't see a whole lot of honor for anyone, living or dead, associated with the Confederate flag. But I also think it is too facile to simply declare everyone who disagrees to be a racist.
One of our very best Civil War historians, Bruce Catton, used these words to set the scene for the dedication of the national cemetery at Gettysburg in November, 1863:
"These were the bones of men who had exulted in their youth...and they had died here, and that was the end of them. They had come here because of angry words and hot passions in which they had not shared. They had come, too, because the drums had rolled and the band had blared the swinging deceitful tunes that piped men off to battle...Back of these men were innumerable long dusty roads reaching to the main streets of a thousand towns and villages where there had been bright flags overhead and people on the board sidewalks cheering and crying and waving a last goodbye."
In other words, many men, North and South, were not fighting for or against anything. An appealing slogan (Save the Union! Defend our homes!), coupled with bands and flags, was enough to light the fires. They joined up because their friends and brothers were joining up. They were young, idealists, seeking adventure. They were also clueless, mostly, about what they would encounter. But they stayed, as soldiers always do, to earn the respect of their comrades.
Surely this is not a difficult concept to understand.
One of our very best Civil War historians, Bruce Catton, used these words to set the scene for the dedication of the national cemetery at Gettysburg in November, 1863:
"These were the bones of men who had exulted in their youth...and they had died here, and that was the end of them. They had come here because of angry words and hot passions in which they had not shared. They had come, too, because the drums had rolled and the band had blared the swinging deceitful tunes that piped men off to battle...Back of these men were innumerable long dusty roads reaching to the main streets of a thousand towns and villages where there had been bright flags overhead and people on the board sidewalks cheering and crying and waving a last goodbye."
In other words, many men, North and South, were not fighting for or against anything. An appealing slogan (Save the Union! Defend our homes!), coupled with bands and flags, was enough to light the fires. They joined up because their friends and brothers were joining up. They were young, idealists, seeking adventure. They were also clueless, mostly, about what they would encounter. But they stayed, as soldiers always do, to earn the respect of their comrades.
Surely this is not a difficult concept to understand.
4
It is the flag of treason, pure and simple. When "Southern pride" is associated with it, it's just dog-whistle language for racism and white supremacy. Hundreds of thousands of Americans died fighting what that flag represents -- not just loyal northerners, but southerners who were propagandized into sacrificing their lives to defend the interests of a small oligarchic elite.
10
Germans are not legally allowed to fly the Nazi flag; a flag that symbolized one group of human being's deranged superiority over other human beings. The Nazis lost and so did the South. If your ancestors died for the right to enslave other humans for economic gain, their loss in the Civil War means that slavery is not an American value today. Since your right to fly your deranged flag is protected under the First Amendment, the least that needs to happen is that it fly at no state institutions. Pathetically, you have the right to your racism, but you cannot fly it up the state flagpole.
7
To quote FDR "we are making complex something that is very simple"; saying that the Confederate battle flag is a symbol of regional tradition and pride is like saying the the Swastika is simply an emblem of German pride. Gov. Haley has really stepped up to the plate here. Many of her fellow Republicans, especially several who are running for president could learn something about the meaning of leadership from her.
4
Gov. Haley is running for a place on a national ticket in 2016. However, her move may signal the end of a major phase of the GOP's Southern Strategy.
4
Nikki Haley deserves no credit for finally removing the Confederate flag from the capital grounds. The tea party and the NRA are particularly strong in SC and they have been playing fast and loose with divisive symbols that show they are united in their struggle against the federal gov't. Except when comes to taking federal largesse since they receive a lot more than they give in federal taxation.
6
OK, if it will make some people happy let's remove the Confederate battle flag from the South Carolina State Capitol grounds. Terrific - that will be a tremendous triumph in the continuing fight against racism in America. After all even Republican presidential candidate Senator Lindsay Graham wants to remove the flag so it must be a great thing to do. Can someone tell me how the lives of the victims of racism will be improved by the removal of the flag?I'd like to suggest that America take some substantive steps toward reducing racism rather than (or in addition to) removing offensive symbols. Of course, substantive steps might cost money which is anathema to those who believe that the poor are lazy. And while we're talking about money, maybe someone can tell me how the status of women will be enhanced by placing the likeness of a women on the ten dollar bill.
6
We were never in a "hot" war with the Soviet Union yet the hammer and sickle would never be allowed to fly over the South Carolina statehouse. The Confederacy was at war with the United States and lost. The flag is a representation of an enemy of the United States of America. Why not raise a flag of the Third Reich? The Stars and Bars is as repugnant as a swastika.
7
Taking away the rights of folks to clarify "who they are" by prohibiting their totems and taboos risks giving them cover of anonymity.
A past Supreme Court Justice said the best antidote for disgusting speech is more free speech.
A point to ponder.
A past Supreme Court Justice said the best antidote for disgusting speech is more free speech.
A point to ponder.
Noone is taking away their symbols. We're asking that it be officially removed from state governments of ALL the people.
Knowing it is the emblem of many hate groups, private citizens can fly at their hearts' content.
Knowing it is the emblem of many hate groups, private citizens can fly at their hearts' content.
2
544,822 signatures. http://petitions.moveon.org/sign/remove-the-confederate-3
That would be people who buy things. Otherwise the state motto of SC can continue to be "would you like fries with that".
That would be people who buy things. Otherwise the state motto of SC can continue to be "would you like fries with that".
3
What has been most striking about this debate is how some of the Republican candidates have tried to straddle the fence so as not to offend the "base". Perhaps the most offensive is former Governor and Minister, Mike Huckabee. To paraphase one of President Kennedy's favorite quotations: "I am convinced that the hottest places in hell are reserved for those people, who is times of moral crisis, remain neutral." Amen!
7
The Confederate flag is the flag of a declared enemy of the United States. Those who fly it do so because they have not accepted the end of the War between the States. It should be removed from every official office in this country (and everywhere else, in my opinion.... it represents war against the US.)
And while we're taking down flags, let's get rid of that black and white atrocity that grew out of the Vietnam war. America has one flag, the Red, White, and Blue.
And while we're taking down flags, let's get rid of that black and white atrocity that grew out of the Vietnam war. America has one flag, the Red, White, and Blue.
7
My ancestors fought for the South and my family is proud of their valor and courage.
However, the time has come to put the Confederate battle flag to rest.
However, the time has come to put the Confederate battle flag to rest.
5
I'm so glad we're having another two-year long election campaign. Watching a dozen GOP candidates trying to thread a needle with both feet was real choice. The Party had to move in to keep the cats in the litter box.
4
The Time's call for taking down the flag is cheap eye wash. The call should have been much bigger and broad sweeping.
Instead, allow NC and other states to continue to fly their Confederate Flag, as a Scarlet Letter, clearly marking those states for the bigoted traitorous bullies that they are for their past and current state sanctioned programs to "keep down" the weak and the poor.
The Times could have used this print to call for "those states" to junk their voting and human rights suppression acts directed against various minority groups, which just weakens the nation and themselves.
The Times could have called for a nationwide mandatory educational program for all grade school and high school kids about the evils of slavery, the risk of bigotry and the use of war as a curative for social ills.
The danger of promoting nationalism and exceptionalism could be well illustrated by what happened to the Confederate South, Japan, Germany et al in the sad pages of history so that just maybe young minds can be turned for such self defeating ideologies.
A huge opportunity is wasted if we don't respond to the South Carolina executions with a dramatic change in our national identity.
Instead, allow NC and other states to continue to fly their Confederate Flag, as a Scarlet Letter, clearly marking those states for the bigoted traitorous bullies that they are for their past and current state sanctioned programs to "keep down" the weak and the poor.
The Times could have used this print to call for "those states" to junk their voting and human rights suppression acts directed against various minority groups, which just weakens the nation and themselves.
The Times could have called for a nationwide mandatory educational program for all grade school and high school kids about the evils of slavery, the risk of bigotry and the use of war as a curative for social ills.
The danger of promoting nationalism and exceptionalism could be well illustrated by what happened to the Confederate South, Japan, Germany et al in the sad pages of history so that just maybe young minds can be turned for such self defeating ideologies.
A huge opportunity is wasted if we don't respond to the South Carolina executions with a dramatic change in our national identity.
6
Nope, that flag should be gathered up and burned, so tere is no mistake what it means
1
The last flag of the Confederacy was a white one. From the start, the so-called "Stars and Bars" was a flag of treason, the symbol of an attempted regime premised on the enslavement of one group of people by another. Send the Confederate flag to the place it belongs: the trash heap of history.
9
Senator Lindsey Graham said the Confederate flag was “part of who we are”. Strange that he would say that in the context of the present tense and not the past tense. Evidently, what the “Old Confederacy” stood for, slavery and treasonous action against the U.S., is still dear to his heart along with the white supremacists in the GOP and at Fox News.
5
I don't know if anyone touched on this, but Governor Haley's comments were so strange yesterday. She stated that the flag has come to represent hate. (I am paraphrasing) Come to represent hate? This flag has always represented hate! I don't need to reiterate all of that. I am just astonished that it remains and it took this massacre to finally make the big push to abolish it! On another note, this tragedy is composed of 2 separate issues. Racism, of course and gun control/violence. When are we going to finally decide that the lives of people in the USA matter more than an antiquated notion re: baring arms? An amendment that came in to being before we had police and certain laws in place! We show ourselves to be less than civilized in our reluctance to evolve!
53
While I agree with you that the Confederate flag should be taken down, I resent the implications that "a symbol of hate" conveys to your readers. This is classic illiberal liberalism and it only diminishes your message.
To those who argue that the Confederate flag is part of a nation's history I might suggest that the Nazi flag and the swastika emblem are also parts of a nation's history. A nation's shame should always be remembered but never revered.
7
A courageous governor would simply take down the flag, not delay and wait for the legislature to act. With all due respect to the law and the legislators who create it, I am sure that the governor, like the President, has certain executive powers that would allow her to act in the best public interest at such a time as this. It would have been an impactful historic move if Gov. Haley and the mayor of Charleston jointly lowered and folded the flag, and gave it to the archivist of the State capitol with the words, "Nevermore".
8
The Confederate battle flag can only be a symbol of hatred as the Nazi Swastika. It was used to defend treason and slavery. There was nothing noble or honorable in the Southern cause.
6
Taking down the flag is really the only decent thing to do. If for no other reason, it is to honor the 9 martyrs lately slain by a racist.
3
The battle flag of the Army of Northern Virginia was adopted as the symbol of memorials to the Confedrate war dead in the aftermath of the war specifically because it separated honoring their fidelity, honor, and courage separately from the Confederacy itself. Were the object of honor the Confederacy and its cause, the flag flying would have been it's national flag.
It is indeed a shame that it has over time been used so many times as a symbol in contemporary racial strife.
It is indeed a shame that it has over time been used so many times as a symbol in contemporary racial strife.
1
A real shame. That is why it was chosen in 1962 to demonstrate the utter contempt of the south for the had enslaved. Treasonous, poisonous flag
Fly that flag over the graves at Vicksburg. That is where it belongs, over the thousands of dead boys who were conscripted into the Confederate armies to defend a practice which did not touch most of them. They were the cannon fodder used by plantation owners to defend their ownership of slaves.
If Gov. Haley really had guts she would just order the removal of the flag, and then wait to see whether she would be arrested for breaking the law. A bit of civil disobedience, if you will.
5
Tell south carolina that if they don't remove their treasonous flag, then they loose all federal contracts and the welfare they recieve in the form of tax donations from real states.
That filthy flag will be taken down faster than you can say "Yankee Doodle Do!"
That filthy flag will be taken down faster than you can say "Yankee Doodle Do!"
5
How nice these republican leaders actually changed their stance on the flag - after most of America wants it taken down. Too bad they cannot think beyond politics. But I am glad that symbol of hate and oppression will be removed the their state capital. And hey, a nod to Walmart for removing all confederate junk from their stores.
5
Let's get one thing straight: if they really wanted the flag taken down tomorrow, it would be taken down tomorrow.
6
The flag also represents one of the most important things about human nature: a desperate attempt at controlling the forward march of progress. Equal rights, economic development, freedom from indenture servitude, freedom from mental bondage of religion, these are concepts that are becoming universal. But they also mean that classes that benefitted mightily from imposing a particular social, economic or religious class system stand to lose. Hence the desperate attempt, in the US by white men of the south (and Republicans & Tea Party), ISIL in the ME, Nazis in Germany (then and now), Putin in Russia, Wahabis in Saudi Arabia, and many elsewhere. They all want to bring back the good old times, because they were good for them (and bad for many others).
The forward march of time is against any such racial, social or religious bigotry. We know it, they know it, the world knows it. But we cannot wait for time to take care of it for the cost may be too high. So, we must remain vigilant, and never give up (that's for you Mr. Obama) and tirelessly work against any symbol of any form of bigotry.
This flag is symbol of the hateful past and has been used by Republicans for their petty political gains. It is good that Nicky Haley has finally made a statement against it. However, I am amazed that an Indian American was ever in support of such a symbol of bigotry. A woman, and that too not white, would support such symbols of hatred, is beyond me. Well, better late than never.
The forward march of time is against any such racial, social or religious bigotry. We know it, they know it, the world knows it. But we cannot wait for time to take care of it for the cost may be too high. So, we must remain vigilant, and never give up (that's for you Mr. Obama) and tirelessly work against any symbol of any form of bigotry.
This flag is symbol of the hateful past and has been used by Republicans for their petty political gains. It is good that Nicky Haley has finally made a statement against it. However, I am amazed that an Indian American was ever in support of such a symbol of bigotry. A woman, and that too not white, would support such symbols of hatred, is beyond me. Well, better late than never.
3
I have lived in the South for many years, including in Savannah. The Southerners objecting to lowering the battle flag that only flew for four years out of a 350-year-long history of South Carolina do not seem to understand that they have been brainwashed by revisionist history. It began not long after the South lost the Civil War - which was explicitly about slavery.
This is the Lost Cause myth. According to one of its late 19th-century proponents Clement Evans, three symbols were sacred to the Lost Cause and deserved perpetual commemorations: the song Dixie, gray uniforms, and the Confederate battle flag.
This has always been a twisted myth, spread by deliberate propaganda and revisionist textbooks, and not reality. Frederick Douglass described it as "a deeply rooted, devoutly cherished sentiment, inseparably identified with the 'lost cause,' which the half measures of the Government towards the traitors has helped to cultivate and strengthen."
The Confederate battle flag symbol has always been about racism, white supremacy and slavery, no matter what the Lost Cause Religion followers think.
There are many studies of this Big Lie and falsified history, one of which is "The Myth of the Lost Cause and Civil War History", Gary W. Gallagher and Alan T. Nolan, eds.
This is the Lost Cause myth. According to one of its late 19th-century proponents Clement Evans, three symbols were sacred to the Lost Cause and deserved perpetual commemorations: the song Dixie, gray uniforms, and the Confederate battle flag.
This has always been a twisted myth, spread by deliberate propaganda and revisionist textbooks, and not reality. Frederick Douglass described it as "a deeply rooted, devoutly cherished sentiment, inseparably identified with the 'lost cause,' which the half measures of the Government towards the traitors has helped to cultivate and strengthen."
The Confederate battle flag symbol has always been about racism, white supremacy and slavery, no matter what the Lost Cause Religion followers think.
There are many studies of this Big Lie and falsified history, one of which is "The Myth of the Lost Cause and Civil War History", Gary W. Gallagher and Alan T. Nolan, eds.
6
Enough of the "why's everybody picking on the South?". The South's history of violence and racism has been propagated by... Southerners. Dixiecrats turned into Republicans when civil rights became a major issue in our country and they enforced a cultural impoverishment on their fellow southerners that still holds sway in this region of the US. This is not to say that Southerners, collectively, are defective or evil.
There exists a culture of violence in the American South (rife with smoldering racial and gender entitlement grievances) that breeds those who fetishize guns and use deadly means to solve their problems or to assuage their sense of being "disrespected". The Civil War has never ended for too many people in the South. Instead of learning from this tragic event, a sense of resentment has been nurtured- People are "against" the South; the war was one of "Northern aggression"; It was all about "State's rights"; Northerners "had slaves too"... ad infinitum.
Culture matters. the secular "North" viewed education as essential and not as a rival cult to the Church, built infrastructure, learned to embrace its' diverse population and created some of the greatest cities on Earth. No secessionist flag flew over them and I'm sure they didn't spend a lot of time sitting around "making fun of the South".
The "Confederate flag" is a de facto symbol of hate no less than the Nazi Swastika and should be removed from all government property.
There exists a culture of violence in the American South (rife with smoldering racial and gender entitlement grievances) that breeds those who fetishize guns and use deadly means to solve their problems or to assuage their sense of being "disrespected". The Civil War has never ended for too many people in the South. Instead of learning from this tragic event, a sense of resentment has been nurtured- People are "against" the South; the war was one of "Northern aggression"; It was all about "State's rights"; Northerners "had slaves too"... ad infinitum.
Culture matters. the secular "North" viewed education as essential and not as a rival cult to the Church, built infrastructure, learned to embrace its' diverse population and created some of the greatest cities on Earth. No secessionist flag flew over them and I'm sure they didn't spend a lot of time sitting around "making fun of the South".
The "Confederate flag" is a de facto symbol of hate no less than the Nazi Swastika and should be removed from all government property.
8
As you rightly point out, the 'Confederate flag' controversy has never been about the Civil War -- it's about the Civil Rights Era, from 1950 to today.
In particular, as Mayor Riley points out, it is the use of the flag by whites who sneered civil rights marchers, black college students and federal law enforcement officials enforcing valid law and court orders to desegregate and to provide service to all without respect to skin color.
These mobs were simply copying the behavior of the elite clique of state lawmakers who first showed in the late 1930s and showed it again in public places as the nation, through its national government, sought to enforce the plain language of our US Constitution.
It is important to note that this flag, in all reality, is not any historical 'confederate flag,' but an invention of racist elites in the South well after the Civil War concluded. It is wider than it is tall, and features the X-crossed symbol that, during the CIvil War, only every appeared as perfectly square.
That 'smaller version' on the flagpole at the SC capitol is a copy, in modern fiber, of the wool calvary flag carried by the army of Virginia, another state. South Carolina's rebel army never marched under such a flag.
All this proves that the banner we today call the 'confederate flag' has no historical connection to the Civil War and is, in reality, the banner only, and clearly of white supremacy.
It is an evil, wrapped in a falsehood, boxed inside a romantic myth.
In particular, as Mayor Riley points out, it is the use of the flag by whites who sneered civil rights marchers, black college students and federal law enforcement officials enforcing valid law and court orders to desegregate and to provide service to all without respect to skin color.
These mobs were simply copying the behavior of the elite clique of state lawmakers who first showed in the late 1930s and showed it again in public places as the nation, through its national government, sought to enforce the plain language of our US Constitution.
It is important to note that this flag, in all reality, is not any historical 'confederate flag,' but an invention of racist elites in the South well after the Civil War concluded. It is wider than it is tall, and features the X-crossed symbol that, during the CIvil War, only every appeared as perfectly square.
That 'smaller version' on the flagpole at the SC capitol is a copy, in modern fiber, of the wool calvary flag carried by the army of Virginia, another state. South Carolina's rebel army never marched under such a flag.
All this proves that the banner we today call the 'confederate flag' has no historical connection to the Civil War and is, in reality, the banner only, and clearly of white supremacy.
It is an evil, wrapped in a falsehood, boxed inside a romantic myth.
9
It is well known that the South is the poorest area of the U.S. There are many reasons, some related to its racial policies, others related to geography and others related to the post-Civil War period, which corresponded to the Industrial Revolution. Economic differences are stark between the North and the South and can be compared to those between former West and East Germany. After the fall of the Berlin Wall, the West Germans made a huge investment in the East which did much to boost the Eastern standard of living. By contrast, after the Civil War, the U.S.made no investment in the South and there was considerable plundering. The German way is to lift your brethren. The American way is to exploit them and then write hundreds of diatribes about their shaky morals.
2
My father raised me on stories about a great grandfather who fought as a Confederate in the Civil War, a matter of great pride to him. My father also had an irrational hatred of black people. I was able then and now to distinguish the two, because they are not synonymous. However, Dylann Roof has created an indelible stain on what was once an honorable symbol for descendants of Confederate veterans. So it should be put away. Not vilified or banned, just put away.
Organizations like the Sons of Confederate Veterans could go a long way towards rehabilitating the flag if they would energetically and publicly go after any individual, organization, website, etc. that uses the flag to propagate white supremacist beliefs. It will take several generations, but it could be done, if it's really important to them.
Organizations like the Sons of Confederate Veterans could go a long way towards rehabilitating the flag if they would energetically and publicly go after any individual, organization, website, etc. that uses the flag to propagate white supremacist beliefs. It will take several generations, but it could be done, if it's really important to them.
27
What is honorable about fighting for an insurrection whose goal was to maintain slavery?
3
@Tim
They are synonymous. Although racism was certainly nationwide in 1861, that flag fought to maintain a system of slavery based on race and based on an explicit theory that slavery was a good thing because of the race of the enslaved.
They are synonymous. Although racism was certainly nationwide in 1861, that flag fought to maintain a system of slavery based on race and based on an explicit theory that slavery was a good thing because of the race of the enslaved.
Soldiers of integrity know when they've been vanquished. There is no dishonor to their memories by removing the flag.
2
The alleged murderer of nine people in a church in Charleston made it easier to identify by a witness and police. He had the Confederate flag on his license plate when pulled over. Though a racist, a drunk, and a drop-out, his Daddy figured he'd give his son the perfect gift for his twenty-first birthday, a gun. Make me proud, Son.
Racism and Guns, what a grand confederation. Shucks, the only thing missing from that alliance is alcohol, something I witnessed recently in some good old boys bars in Arizona. It's legal, you know, just as legal as it was for someone to carry a gun into a church. In fact everything the alleged shooter did was completely within his Second Amendment Rights, right up to the moment he fired the first shot.
God Help US.
DD
Manhattan
Racism and Guns, what a grand confederation. Shucks, the only thing missing from that alliance is alcohol, something I witnessed recently in some good old boys bars in Arizona. It's legal, you know, just as legal as it was for someone to carry a gun into a church. In fact everything the alleged shooter did was completely within his Second Amendment Rights, right up to the moment he fired the first shot.
God Help US.
DD
Manhattan
3
Actually Denis it was not legal to carry a gun into that church. It is located in a gun free zone.
1
Ironically, the flag that this article uses an image of isn't even the Confederate flag - it uses one of a flag that was never officially adopted. Instead, it uses a picture of the battle flag (or Confederate Jack).
I'm not a Southerner so I can't speak of how they are different in practice today, but I would like more clarification because to me it seems as if the Jack is more associated with white supremacy (though both are). I'd love an article clarifying this, or at least acknowledging that the Jack and "Confederate flag" are different things.
I'm not a Southerner so I can't speak of how they are different in practice today, but I would like more clarification because to me it seems as if the Jack is more associated with white supremacy (though both are). I'd love an article clarifying this, or at least acknowledging that the Jack and "Confederate flag" are different things.
1
Very good that the Governor, Nikki Haley, initiated the thought of removing the Confederate flag. Don't want to prolong the removal, but, why did she wait until this tragedy to push it? We all know why.... POLITICS!!!
3
too little, too late...
2
The Confederate battle flag represents history and southern culture to many people of that region. Remove it at your own peril. Nobody can change history, or the will of people to remember and honor their history. I fly my own Confederate battle flag alternately with the American flag to recognize the great battles of the Civil War. Are the thought police and politically correct of going to force me to stop flying one of them? Just try it. By the way, I have seen more overt racism practiced in the north than during any of my many trips south of the old Mason-Dixon line.
True that there are plenty of racists in the North, but there isn't really a flag that celebrates that racism.
1
So you give equal honor the flag of a failed terrorist state that tried to destroy this country. Just wow. equal? The good news is the more this stuff is posted, the more likely it will be a very long time if ever the GOPTP sees national office,
No one is talking about stopping you from your reactionary, but private, display. This is about a display on the grounds of the state capitol. This involves the government's endorsement of the history of slavery and rebellion and recent resistance to the freedom and rights of African Americans
3
Had the U.S. done what was expected after the Civil War and hanged a few of the traitors who had seceded from the union we might not be still re-enacting the tragedy of that war.
The confederate flag is as repugnant as the nazi flag and should only be displayed as a museum artifact of an unlawful and tragic chapter of our history.
And any politician who has ever utter the phrase "state's rights" when speaking of it should be summarily dismissed as a serious candidate.
The confederate flag is as repugnant as the nazi flag and should only be displayed as a museum artifact of an unlawful and tragic chapter of our history.
And any politician who has ever utter the phrase "state's rights" when speaking of it should be summarily dismissed as a serious candidate.
4
I'm sick to the gills with irreverent black preachers and other professional racists profiting from fostering hatred under false pretenses. The black slave was originally enslaved by by other blacks who profited from their sale. The third largest slave holder in Louisiana was a black man. The current brouhaha is nothing more than a continued effort to profit from racism. I suggest Percival Everett's "Appropriation of Cultures" [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tdSy7LOwzHQ ] would be a better approach. After all, Southern rednecks appropriated "Dixie" from a damned Yankee.
2
If we consider the timing of the call to take down the confederate flag, we must not ignore that this is more an act of preserving the narrative that movies, videos and now—symbols such as this flag are what create an exception to white perfection, such as Dylann Roof. We are on the path of being conditioned to believe that were if not for this flag, Mr. Roof would have not acted on his racist beliefs. While all other minorities are portrayed as committing crimes due to some innate predisposition, Mr. Roof’s race will get a pass due to his perverse embrace of the confederate flag.
The truth of the matter is that the confederate flag probably had less effect on Mr. Roof actions than that of living in a society where although for decades the majority of blacks object to the flag as offensive, it is dismissed simply because blacks are considered second class citizens. It is the indoctrination of whites as superior; as the actual “citizens” of the United States, that not only led to Mr. Roof to extreme actions, but also allows whites to exhibit varying degrees of racial animus towards blacks--every day.
Now that more whites are calling for the flag to be taken down you can all but guarantee that it will go. Name one symbol, street name, event, or team name that the majority of whites in America find offensive where whites are told that it must be tolerated?
The truth of the matter is that the confederate flag probably had less effect on Mr. Roof actions than that of living in a society where although for decades the majority of blacks object to the flag as offensive, it is dismissed simply because blacks are considered second class citizens. It is the indoctrination of whites as superior; as the actual “citizens” of the United States, that not only led to Mr. Roof to extreme actions, but also allows whites to exhibit varying degrees of racial animus towards blacks--every day.
Now that more whites are calling for the flag to be taken down you can all but guarantee that it will go. Name one symbol, street name, event, or team name that the majority of whites in America find offensive where whites are told that it must be tolerated?
3
RE: M Peirce: "Lest we lose sight of the fact, this is an issue of free speech. The confederate flag has been tolerated for the sake of freedom of speech. Likewise, KKK rallies and marches are tolerated for the sake of maintaining free speech."
The fact is that this is not an issue of free speech. Any person or group can and will fly the confederate flag when and where they please. The issue is that the state government -- that supposedly represents all citizens of the state-- is providing and maintaining at public expense a prominent public display of that flag on the grounds of the state legislature.
A flag in itself, of course, is no danger to anyone. It is what the flag represents that is the issue, and by its display the state government is expressing collectively on behalf of all state citizens what the flag represents. That it represents different ideas to different people is obvious. There are likely some S Carolinians who openly salute it and pledge allegiance to it, but there are others who do so only in private because it is clearly an offensive symbol to the majority of S Carolina citizens.
Taking the flag down from its prominent display on state property in front of the legislature is no violation of "free speech."
The fact is that this is not an issue of free speech. Any person or group can and will fly the confederate flag when and where they please. The issue is that the state government -- that supposedly represents all citizens of the state-- is providing and maintaining at public expense a prominent public display of that flag on the grounds of the state legislature.
A flag in itself, of course, is no danger to anyone. It is what the flag represents that is the issue, and by its display the state government is expressing collectively on behalf of all state citizens what the flag represents. That it represents different ideas to different people is obvious. There are likely some S Carolinians who openly salute it and pledge allegiance to it, but there are others who do so only in private because it is clearly an offensive symbol to the majority of S Carolina citizens.
Taking the flag down from its prominent display on state property in front of the legislature is no violation of "free speech."
3
Why are we stopping with South Carolina and just the state Capitol building? This should be removed from ALL government buildings, documents, license plates etc. There's no place for it in a public place that belongs to EVERYONE nor should it be issued on any government documents anywhere.
2
Black Americans built the South with their labor. Black Americans died in the old South, worked to death in cotton fields. There were no rich southerners out in the fields, picking cotton in the heat. There were no tenant farmers or sharecroppers who picked cotton along side of black slaves. Without black slaves much of the South has remained poor, supported by Federal taxes. If So. Carolina wants to keep her "heritage", she should give up the right to receive Federal tax dollars, paid by working black Americans. Not to mention millions of us white folks whose taxes pay for poverty stricken Southern towns and rural farm areas. We could better spend our tax dollars on national infrastructure and education. Let the South fall, as it should have done 150 years ago.
The thing I find fascinating is that a man from the Sons of the Confederates was almost in tears trying to save the flag. I am going to give him the benefit of the doubt and assume that he really believes that without slavery, SC would have fired on Ft. Sumter, and that in two or three years, slavery would have died on its own without a Civil War, or that he understands that many soldiers who died for the cause owned no slaves and went to war because they felt that the Southern states were their country, their families expected them, too, they were opposed to strong central federal gov't, etc., or they were conscripted and that they were no more racist or hateful than many of their northern counterparts who went to war for all the same reasons. Yet, it's interesting to me that he can feel so emotionally moved by the flag to whatever warm, fuzzy, love my ancestors state and not, AT THE SAME TIME, have any idea that for adults still living who saw the KKK march and who saw hoses turned on peaceful protesters, and drinks poured on young men and women who had the audacity to try to have lunch at Woolworth's, it might inspire terror, shame, helpless frustration, and deep grief.
3
If the removal of the flag is warranted because it was a symbol of slavery, then shouldn't the stars and stripes all so be removed? Should the original US Constitution be on display anywhere?
At the end of the day, it is a piece of cloth flapping in the breeze. If it is there or not will not change ones feelings about race.
At the end of the day, it is a piece of cloth flapping in the breeze. If it is there or not will not change ones feelings about race.
What about the confederate statues at almost every southern courthouse? They are equally offensive.
4
Yes the CBF should be taken down at South Carolina's capital, but why not from every public place? It's a dog whistle for white supremacy and should not be endorsed by state or local governments.
3
Yea, less hate is the way and this a splendid start! Stand your Ground should be next. Maybe Governor Bush's calling for greatness, hope he heeds.
2
Fritz Hollingsworth,D of South Carolina is responsible for the Confederate Flag flying over the S. Carolina State house; Bill Clinton D, signed the proclamation allowing the Conf. Flag to be flown over the Statehouse of Arkansas. The Governors of the South during the Civil Rights movement were ALL Democrats. In 1963, George Wallace blocked the entrance to the Macon County Courthouse in an effort to stop desegregation. Read: his Stand in the Schoolhouse Door speech.
I believe that the Confederate Flag has no place flying over any Statehouse..it is offensive, but history is certain. This has never been promoted by Republicans. Lincoln was a Republican as is Nikki Haley.
I believe that the Confederate Flag has no place flying over any Statehouse..it is offensive, but history is certain. This has never been promoted by Republicans. Lincoln was a Republican as is Nikki Haley.
1
Mary Ann, I am glad you agree the flag must be taken down. It is telling that it was not flown during the years soldiers who actually fought the Civil War would have had a say. Lincoln was a great man. Yes, the Republicans have lost their way in recent years. And Southern Democrats no longer espouse pro-segregation beliefs.
2
These arguments about how it's really Democrats, who are responsible for racism in the old confederate states is historically ignorant. The most repeated trope is that more Republicans supported the Civil Rights Act in Congress than did Democrats in the southern states. Of course that ignores the almost universal power of post-Reconstruction Democrats throughout the South. The triumph of the post-Civil rights Act "Southern Strategy" of the GOP WAS TO convert every Dixiecrat into a Republican.
The endemic racism (not limited but concentrated there) just changed party labels. After signing the CAR Johnson said his party would lose the South for a generation. It's nearly three and counting.
The endemic racism (not limited but concentrated there) just changed party labels. After signing the CAR Johnson said his party would lose the South for a generation. It's nearly three and counting.
When Lindsey Graham said first, "it's part of who we are," of course, he only meant white South Carolinians. It was never part of who black citizens of that state are. It may not have been who all white citizens of South Carolina were either, but many of them were too spineless or clueless to speak up. Lindsey Graham certainly expressed correctly who he is the first time he spoke on the matter.
5
This is just another one of Haley's stunts. They have no intention of taking it down.
1
Why is it Republicans who keep claiming the battle flag of the Confederacy is about State's Rights never talk about what triggered the issue in the first place?
The issue of State's Rights came up because southerners wanted to move state to state with their property, but keep their property recognized under the laws of their native state; the property in question was slaves. Southerners wanted to keep their slaves if they entered an abolitionist state, this then trigger the question about the morality of slavery and whether or not a human being can be considered property.
If Republican's don't know this fact then they should, if they do know this fact and choose to repeat the "State's Rights" defense then it's a greater shame on them and the grand old party.
The issue of State's Rights came up because southerners wanted to move state to state with their property, but keep their property recognized under the laws of their native state; the property in question was slaves. Southerners wanted to keep their slaves if they entered an abolitionist state, this then trigger the question about the morality of slavery and whether or not a human being can be considered property.
If Republican's don't know this fact then they should, if they do know this fact and choose to repeat the "State's Rights" defense then it's a greater shame on them and the grand old party.
57
This is a good point. Southern states wanted run-away slaves returned to their owners from northern states where they were free citizens. Some horrible miscarriages of justice were done in the 1850's, but the Supreme Court in a famous decision overturned the state laws of Northern states that outlawed slavery and said slaves must be returned under the due process clause where states had to recognize the laws from other states (Nevada divorces were legal in all 48 states). How interesting that right-wing GOP leaders now say this is wrong so they so don't have to recognize gay marriages from other states. Its a continuation of the white Dixiecrat way of life that white might makes right.
Well, the press and the Republicans have once again deflected everyone from the real issue, and after a week or so of tweeting and commenting on the symbolism of the Confederate flag, everyone can then quietly slip back into their online lives.
As for me, let them fly the flag, wear their swastikas, shout their hate. Just take away their guns. Without that, will be looking forward to the in depth coverage and analysis of the next slaughter, not to mention the biography of the perpetrator and the interviews with his neighbors who "just knew it!"
As for me, let them fly the flag, wear their swastikas, shout their hate. Just take away their guns. Without that, will be looking forward to the in depth coverage and analysis of the next slaughter, not to mention the biography of the perpetrator and the interviews with his neighbors who "just knew it!"
45
If you see what a problem we have with race in this country take a moment and read yesterday's editorial from the Charleston Post and Courier.
The editorial would like you to think the only reason the Confederate battle flag was raised over the State House in 1962 were for the benign reasons of to "mark{ing} the centennial of the Civil War" and the "struggle" of South Carolinian who died in the Civil War.
Of course anyone with the least knowledge of that period knows otherwise, in which the revival of this battle flag was to challenge the unthinkable in the minds of many in the deep south - racial equality for African Americans.
Granted, the editorial does acknowledge the dark side of what the Confederate battle flag - "hatred" and "lawlessness" - actions perpetrated, as the editorial would like you to believe, by fringe malcontents.
However, anyone who has been paying attention to history and today's events know that racial hatred and prejudice in our nation is not so "fringe."
But try telling that to our southern brothers and sisters who think like the Charleston Post and Courier editorial that the placement of the Confederate battle flag on State House grounds was merely an unsuccessful "compromise" and there is any normalcy - in which this editorial never acknowledges - in the need for a two-thirds vote in the South Carolina legislature to remove this odious racist symbol from the State House grounds.
The editorial would like you to think the only reason the Confederate battle flag was raised over the State House in 1962 were for the benign reasons of to "mark{ing} the centennial of the Civil War" and the "struggle" of South Carolinian who died in the Civil War.
Of course anyone with the least knowledge of that period knows otherwise, in which the revival of this battle flag was to challenge the unthinkable in the minds of many in the deep south - racial equality for African Americans.
Granted, the editorial does acknowledge the dark side of what the Confederate battle flag - "hatred" and "lawlessness" - actions perpetrated, as the editorial would like you to believe, by fringe malcontents.
However, anyone who has been paying attention to history and today's events know that racial hatred and prejudice in our nation is not so "fringe."
But try telling that to our southern brothers and sisters who think like the Charleston Post and Courier editorial that the placement of the Confederate battle flag on State House grounds was merely an unsuccessful "compromise" and there is any normalcy - in which this editorial never acknowledges - in the need for a two-thirds vote in the South Carolina legislature to remove this odious racist symbol from the State House grounds.
5
The Confederate battle flag is the flag of traitors. It is the flag of racists. It is the flag of cruel oppressors. It is the flag of cross burners. It is the flag of hatred.
Its display should be limited to museums and Civil War reenactments.
Its display should be limited to museums and Civil War reenactments.
8
For all who claim the heritage it represents and that it honors the ancestors who fought and died under it: What would your reaction be if the red, white and black Nazi banner appeared over government buildings in Germany. It won't, it's illegal to display the swastika in any form in Germany, but that would be a truly disturbing sight.
2
Instead of asking why shouldn't we have the flag flying at the capital in Columbia, SC, I think we should ask why should we have it flying there? Personally I can't think of any really good reason.
For the record, I am a descendent of several Confederate soldiers, a lifelong SC resident & taxpayer, and I'm white.
For the record, I am a descendent of several Confederate soldiers, a lifelong SC resident & taxpayer, and I'm white.
4
Let's get this straight. The Confederate flag is not some impressionistic metaphor. It is a sign that was deliberately crafted to convey the organization, ideals and attitudes of the Confederate States of America.
It was designed by William Porcher Miles, a South Carolina Congressman who was an radical agitator for slavery and secession. Reflecting his combative attitude, his design became the battle flag of the Confederate troops.
The flag contains thirteen stars to represent the thirteen states that violently broke away from the United States in defense of the institution of slavery. Miles' battle flag was incorporated into the second official flag of the rebel Confedrate States of America, which was explicitly designed to represent the supremacy of the white race over the black race.
There is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING that is honorable about the Confederate flag. To revere it is to revere a brutal form of feudalism that structured and institutionalized notions of white superiority and black inferiority that poison American society to this day.
The politicians who are soft-pedaling the flag, avoiding taking a position on it, and defending it, are willfully allowing the poison to spread. A total ban on the Confederate flag will be an effective antidote to the racism, subjugation, rebelliousness, and violence that it was created to represent.
It was designed by William Porcher Miles, a South Carolina Congressman who was an radical agitator for slavery and secession. Reflecting his combative attitude, his design became the battle flag of the Confederate troops.
The flag contains thirteen stars to represent the thirteen states that violently broke away from the United States in defense of the institution of slavery. Miles' battle flag was incorporated into the second official flag of the rebel Confedrate States of America, which was explicitly designed to represent the supremacy of the white race over the black race.
There is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING that is honorable about the Confederate flag. To revere it is to revere a brutal form of feudalism that structured and institutionalized notions of white superiority and black inferiority that poison American society to this day.
The politicians who are soft-pedaling the flag, avoiding taking a position on it, and defending it, are willfully allowing the poison to spread. A total ban on the Confederate flag will be an effective antidote to the racism, subjugation, rebelliousness, and violence that it was created to represent.
7
Johnny-come-lately calls for taking town the Confederate flag by some GOP members only underscores the whirlwind they are now reaping after years of sewing the wind with divisive political messaging that panders to people's worst traits.
It also underscores why the Republican Party in its current form is unfit to govern at any level.
It also underscores why the Republican Party in its current form is unfit to govern at any level.
4
The title of this editorial refers to the flag as a "symbol of hatred," while the text itself cites with approval Mayor Riley's subtler recognition that it means different things to different people. I see this over and over in these pages. Last week it was "Stop Revering Magna Carta," while the the piece by Tom Ginsburg takes a far subtler approach. Your head-line writers might consider rising above the level of click-bait. It's not only annoying, it's strident. Personally, I'd prefer the Gray Lady to regain her composure.
3
When asked about the flag issue, several Republican presidential candidates simply say the decision should be made by the people of South Carolina. They lack the courage to issue a personal opinion on the matter. Such politicians are moral cowards.
1
The Confederacy is an important part of America's history. The desire to get rid of the Confederate flag is part of the trend of revising history to suit the wants of various interest groups, such as religious groups that want the Dark Ages to be seen as not dark at all because Christianity made everything okay. No doubt, these historical revisionists want the Confederate flag removed from American history books as well, so children won't see it.
2
I think you miss the point. The confederate flag is a part of our history. the Swastika is a part of German history. These symbols belong in museums and history books Not in public places!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! For many of us they are symbols of racism and hate.
Workerbee is correct: the Confederacy IS an important part of America's history--a shameful part, like the Trail of Tears and lynching. But getting rid of the Confederate flag is not revising history, because the veneration of this hateful emblem was the real historical revision, done to placate the sensitivities of the whites in the South, who held political and economic power and could block legislation in the Congress. The historical facts are: the Confederate states seceded to protect slavery and the privileges of 5% of their populations and that the non-slave owning southern whites and yeoman farmers were gulled into thinking their interests were those of the uber-rich planter class. By the third year of the Civil War many southerners had figured out they were being used by a handful of rich planters and desertion rates skyrocketed, while their money collapsed.
1
No, Workerbee. We just want the Confederate battle flag removed from public buildings supported by tax dollars paid by citizens of all colors. If you want to fly a Confederate battle flag from your garage roof in Florida, feel free. Please don't tell me, a Californian, that my tax dollars should be spent to support racism in So. Carolina or anyplace else. The history of the Civil War is in history books; it is clear which side lost, and it is clear why the war was fought. Don't revise the history of a tragic domestic civil war which claimed the lives of thousands. Don't trivialize it. It happened and slavery was ended as a legal practice. Jim Crow remained. Defend that if you like, I find it indefensible.
1
The flag should be removed and banned. And while we're at it, let's remove the history of slavery from all future teachings of history. That way, in future generations, there will not be an iota of the warped racist mentality that is so prevalent in today's society.
Taking down the flag could be a slippery slope. Mark my words, the next thing you'll know women will want equal rights, minorities will balk at second-class citizenship, gays will want to be seen as human. Oh, and poor people might demand a share of the earth's resources exploited by others for profit.
14
The weapon used to murder nine Americans was a gun, not a flag.
Take down the flag because it represents the effort to hold onto slavery, but do not allow it to distract from the real issue.
It is the unbridled proliferation of guns which enables domestic terrorists and gangs to murder American civilians.
Not a piece of cloth.
Take down the flag because it represents the effort to hold onto slavery, but do not allow it to distract from the real issue.
It is the unbridled proliferation of guns which enables domestic terrorists and gangs to murder American civilians.
Not a piece of cloth.
10
Nikki Haley is of Indian (Sikh) descent. Maybe she can better relate to this whole hate incident because the same thing happened in Milwaukee at a Sikh temple.
Too bad any of us have to relate to the horror of such circumstances.
What choice does she really have? Would she rather have the imprint of Dylan Roof waving the Confederate flag around in our minds, or her requesting the flag to be removed, and yes, perhaps put in a museum....far far away from where it might remind us on a daily basis of the reason for this crime, just like at the Sikh temple in Milwaukee.
Too bad any of us have to relate to the horror of such circumstances.
What choice does she really have? Would she rather have the imprint of Dylan Roof waving the Confederate flag around in our minds, or her requesting the flag to be removed, and yes, perhaps put in a museum....far far away from where it might remind us on a daily basis of the reason for this crime, just like at the Sikh temple in Milwaukee.
2
Dylann Roof was not just waving the Confederate flag, he was also burning the American Flag. If that doesn't show that he was an anti-American terrorist, I don't know what could.
Funny how I haven't heard a single condemnation of Dylann's burning of the American flag from anyone on the Conservative Right.
Funny how I haven't heard a single condemnation of Dylann's burning of the American flag from anyone on the Conservative Right.
5
Hmm... Good point!
The carnage in Charleston and its aftermath should effectively decide the 2016 election. If Hillary (or if there is a lower case god, Bernie) is paying attention, the campaign ads are already in production: A photo of Rev. Clementa Pinckney's lifeless body in the Capitol Rotunda, followed by short video clips of every single pandering, obfuscating, lying, mealymouthed Republican candidate evading racism, enabling gun ownership and disgracing the nation.
8
Steve if you to debate guns let's have it,
The shooting occurred in a gun free zone and the shooter was not licensed to conceal the weapon. So your answer is to have stricter gun laws that will not be followed. Explain how that will help?
How about we start to look at the mental health problems in this country. The common thread in all mass killings have been mental health issues.
The shooting occurred in a gun free zone and the shooter was not licensed to conceal the weapon. So your answer is to have stricter gun laws that will not be followed. Explain how that will help?
How about we start to look at the mental health problems in this country. The common thread in all mass killings have been mental health issues.
The Confederate flag is not a symbol of racial hatred for me. It's a symbol of an interesting period of American history that is much more complex than the monosymbolic, racial hatred aspect those who wallow in hatred will admit.
2
yes those of us who find the flag of traitors and slavers disgusting are the real haters.
Not those who chose to fly it in state capitals over their state houses in protest of the civil right movement. Not those who glorify to this day the profit gained by human misery and suffering.
I am so glad i read your post
Not those who chose to fly it in state capitals over their state houses in protest of the civil right movement. Not those who glorify to this day the profit gained by human misery and suffering.
I am so glad i read your post
Bill,
I assume for the sake of consistency that you feel the same way about the Nazi Swastika, probably just an interesting usurpation of an ancient symbol - nothing the Nazis did or stood for should adhere to the symbol? Really?
I assume for the sake of consistency that you feel the same way about the Nazi Swastika, probably just an interesting usurpation of an ancient symbol - nothing the Nazis did or stood for should adhere to the symbol? Really?
After our Civil War that flag was mostly put away: http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2015/06/why-is-the-flag-stil... . Although it was shown periodically as a general historic symbol, its modern mid-20th century revival was in the context of the Dixiecrats who were furious with Truman over desegregation of the armed forces and his support of anti-lynching bills. Why should anyone celebrate that historic context? I have no doubt that Governor Nikki Haley fully understands the concerns.
2
I see no difference between the Confederate flag of the Confederate States and the swastika flag of Germany's Nazi party. Neither flag should have an official place in/on governmental buildings, and they both should be relegated to museums and history books, where their true meaning of hatred can be accurately presented.
5
When my great grandfather followed the Confederate flag into battle, it was not a symbol of hatred or of slavery, it was a symbol of his family and home in Virginia, which he was defending. But now, the stars and bars has been co-opted by hate groups, to give it meaning it never intended to have. Black Americans have earned their place in society, with blood and suffering. They are much more a part of the fabric of America then the trash who insist I'm flying the Confederate flag as a racist banner.
33
Earned their place in society? And what have any of done to earn our place? Being born? Burn your flag no matter what you imagine it represents.
Well said, Mr. Davis. Five of my great great grandfathers served in the Confederate Army. The battle flag of the Army of Northern Virginia has been coopted by sick minds who want to use it to give expression to their hate and infantile revenge fantasies. African Americans helped to build this country and deserve the full protection of government at all levels in these United States of America.
People do not fly the swastika, even though it originally had an origin in Hinduism and was a symbol of peace. It was appropriated by Nazis, never again to have the same meaning. It doesn't matter what your great grandfather did. The moment it because a symbol for the owning and keeping of human beings as slaves, it lost the meaning he originally felt it had. It is a racist banner now, just as much as a swastika is a symbol of anti-Semitism.
The Confederate flag and the Don't Tread On Me flag are icons for people that either hate blacks or hate government. Seems to me the both fall into the camp of treason, trying to subvert or end our government.
4
Flying the Confederate flag in the southern states seems a bit like flying the Nazi flag in today's Germany. Both represent greed, racist laws, brutality, inequality, death and a non-existent country. Take the flag down!!!
5
Except that flying the Swastika flag in Germany is illegal. In fact just showing it in public except for scholarly purposes is illegal. (Austria, Hungary, Poland have similar laws). So the comparison doesn't really hold. No state building in Germany would ever fly this flag.
But the US values free speech above all else, so symbols of racism, tyranny and hatred can be displayed with impunity.
But the US values free speech above all else, so symbols of racism, tyranny and hatred can be displayed with impunity.
Rose: You misunderstand what I said. Something can be like something else whether or not one is legal and one is not. I live in the U.S. We value money above all else.
Hallelujah ! It's WAY past the time.....100 plus years late...
1
Would it help if government officials in the South made it clear that a white supremacist ideology has no place in America? Would it help if that was said by every governor of the 50 states and those in the territories? Would removing the Confederate battle flag from the Capitol grounds along with a statement disavowing white supremacist ideology help? Probably it would. But it won't stop racism or other forms or acts of bigotry/terrorism towards blacks, Jews, Asians, Muslims, etc.
What might stop those acts is this country becoming a kinder place to live. Instead of ranting about how those people mooch off the government, and those people being welfare queens and kings, and those people taking our jobs, why not speak about how this is everyone's country and we all need to help make it a better place to live? All includes you, me, the neighbors, the GOP, the corporations, the 1% and the 99%. It also means having the GOP accept the fact that an African American president deserves as much respect as a White one and that we elected him into office.
Rather than finding ways to divide us, our political parties should be finding ways to help us have a better life, to improve America. And we, as citizens, should be voting. That's one of the biggest ways we can affect our country. If we don't like what we're seeing we need to vote in new people.
What might stop those acts is this country becoming a kinder place to live. Instead of ranting about how those people mooch off the government, and those people being welfare queens and kings, and those people taking our jobs, why not speak about how this is everyone's country and we all need to help make it a better place to live? All includes you, me, the neighbors, the GOP, the corporations, the 1% and the 99%. It also means having the GOP accept the fact that an African American president deserves as much respect as a White one and that we elected him into office.
Rather than finding ways to divide us, our political parties should be finding ways to help us have a better life, to improve America. And we, as citizens, should be voting. That's one of the biggest ways we can affect our country. If we don't like what we're seeing we need to vote in new people.
5
Thank-you for your comments.
Taking down the symbol of racism is a start. Those who would continue to fly the flag will use this act as another reason for their resentment. But once gone from public and government places, the only place it will remain will be on individuals' property and persons, as a statement that they are, in fact, openly racist. In addition, our government needs to make a formal apology, much as Kevin Rudd did in Australia, to the native population there. A formal apology by our government would mark a beginning point from which peace and reconciliation can flow. A public statement would give us a reference point. I've started a petition at whitehouse.gov about this. Please consider signing. https://petitions.whitehouse.gov//petition/formally-apologize-behalf-uni...
5
I suggest that the Confederate flag is a symbol of the Confederate States of America, a self-proclaimed government that waged war against the United States. The CSA was by any definition an enemy of the United States. That flag is also a symbol adopted by those who gave aid and comfort to the CSA. Under our Constitution at Article III, Section 3, those who supported the CSA and those who continue to adopt the symbol of support for the CSA would be found guilty of treason. The time is long overdue for treating the Confederate flag for what it stands for, and to put a stop to its display anywhere but in a museum. Let the former members of the Confederacy truly re-join the United States.
Daniel E. Harris
Brunswick, Maine
Daniel E. Harris
Brunswick, Maine
11
First, my bonafides. Years ago, I tore down a confederate flag at a political rally in the south. I was wrong to do that. And I spent the night in jail.
What I find offensive in this editorial -- and in many comments -- is the failure of Northerners to acknowledge their role in slavery -- and the oppression of Blacks post emancipation. And a failure to acknowledge horrific acts that have taken place under the US banner,particularly the genocide of Native Americans -- which was carried out primarily by Northerners (Sherman, Sheridan, Custer is just a starter list of Union vets who led the slaughter of the Plains Indians).
Slavery existed in all new world colonies and in the north several decades into the 19th century. Slavery died out in the North because it no longer was economically viable. But Northerners were the leading shippers of slaves and northern mills welcomed cheap cotton produced in the south.
Jim Crow was active in the North as well, as was pro-segregationist sentiment. When Branch Rickey brought Jackie Robinson into pro baseball, his concerns about racist reactions were focused on the North. There were no pro baseball teams in the South.
Those who are quick to castigate the South and demand the removal of the flag should recognize the Norths's shameful history as well.
Perhaps the flag should come down, but the vitriol expressed here toward the South is more about politics and northern arrogance than moral outrage.
What I find offensive in this editorial -- and in many comments -- is the failure of Northerners to acknowledge their role in slavery -- and the oppression of Blacks post emancipation. And a failure to acknowledge horrific acts that have taken place under the US banner,particularly the genocide of Native Americans -- which was carried out primarily by Northerners (Sherman, Sheridan, Custer is just a starter list of Union vets who led the slaughter of the Plains Indians).
Slavery existed in all new world colonies and in the north several decades into the 19th century. Slavery died out in the North because it no longer was economically viable. But Northerners were the leading shippers of slaves and northern mills welcomed cheap cotton produced in the south.
Jim Crow was active in the North as well, as was pro-segregationist sentiment. When Branch Rickey brought Jackie Robinson into pro baseball, his concerns about racist reactions were focused on the North. There were no pro baseball teams in the South.
Those who are quick to castigate the South and demand the removal of the flag should recognize the Norths's shameful history as well.
Perhaps the flag should come down, but the vitriol expressed here toward the South is more about politics and northern arrogance than moral outrage.
43
Thank you
You make the ineffective 'tu quoque' argument -- the appeal to hypocrisy.
Sure, all the geographic sections of the country parts of their histories which are shameful. But that is irrelevant and diverting to a discussion of actions taken in South Carolina by South Carolina citizens and their public officials.
It is talking about everything -- and demanding a discussion of everything else -- before dealing with the matter squarely in front of you. It is an unfair and ultimately unsuccessful way to argue.
The most logical and moral way forward would be to honestly discuss the matter of the flag and South Carolina, and avoid the fallacious temptation to suggest that everyone else must discuss everything else first.
Sure, all the geographic sections of the country parts of their histories which are shameful. But that is irrelevant and diverting to a discussion of actions taken in South Carolina by South Carolina citizens and their public officials.
It is talking about everything -- and demanding a discussion of everything else -- before dealing with the matter squarely in front of you. It is an unfair and ultimately unsuccessful way to argue.
The most logical and moral way forward would be to honestly discuss the matter of the flag and South Carolina, and avoid the fallacious temptation to suggest that everyone else must discuss everything else first.
1
No one is denying that racism exists in different parts of the nation. What people are outraged by is that a flag associated with rebellion and treason, as well as with slavery, is flying in a prominent location with the support of a state's government.
The North did not promote slavery into the mid and late 19th century as the South did. Remember that there were various anti-slavery laws passed. Both Confederate Vice President Alexander Stephenson and President Lincoln said the Civil War was about slavery -- its preservation or its end.
It is blurring this very clear cut line that cost more than 600,000 Americans their lives in the Civil War to talk about broader racism. From the time of Jim Crow, the rise of the Lost Cause revisionist history of the south, and modern white supremacy, it is the Confederate battle flag that has been a common symbol.
The North did not promote slavery into the mid and late 19th century as the South did. Remember that there were various anti-slavery laws passed. Both Confederate Vice President Alexander Stephenson and President Lincoln said the Civil War was about slavery -- its preservation or its end.
It is blurring this very clear cut line that cost more than 600,000 Americans their lives in the Civil War to talk about broader racism. From the time of Jim Crow, the rise of the Lost Cause revisionist history of the south, and modern white supremacy, it is the Confederate battle flag that has been a common symbol.
2
There is little doubt that the flag in question is a symbol of an ideology that many find offensive. But, the core issue and question is to what extent should Americans sanitize the public space to the least common denominator.
The whole of the populous, a city or a state, should vote on such a decision to keep or take down this flag. Not politicians or special interest groups of any stripe.
America keeps moving more and more in the direction of sameness. We have lost our ability to "put up with" those things we find personally not comfortable. The problem with this tenancy is that we only see, hear, and read what already "feels good".
If we truly believe in the free exchange of all ideas, no matter how abhorrent some of them may be, then we need a thicker skin.
The whole of the populous, a city or a state, should vote on such a decision to keep or take down this flag. Not politicians or special interest groups of any stripe.
America keeps moving more and more in the direction of sameness. We have lost our ability to "put up with" those things we find personally not comfortable. The problem with this tenancy is that we only see, hear, and read what already "feels good".
If we truly believe in the free exchange of all ideas, no matter how abhorrent some of them may be, then we need a thicker skin.
1
Would you feel the same way if someone hoisted the flag the Nazis used during WWII? Flags mean something. In this case it's offensive to a good many people in South Carolina. It reminds them of their past, a past which involved cruelty towards people with their skin color. It reminds them of Jim Crow, the KKK, lynchings, etc. It's divisive and hurtful. It's not a symbol of all of the United States of America. It's a symbol of White Southern pride and oppression of African Americans. Why does the latter need to be reminded that at one time they were only 3/5 of a person in this country?
10
In our brand of democracy the majority does not automatically get the last word. Our government is set up in such a way that the rights and preferences are not trampled by the majority. So no, this is not an issue that can simply be put to a vote.
1
If a person flew it on their house fine. If a town or a state voted to fly it on a public place fine.
The point is that to be an American should be to have a thick enough skin to tolerate speech one does not like, and flying a flag is speech, even if it is one that is offensive.
Things like Mein Kampf and Das Kapital are divisive and hurtful, does that mean they should be banned from public libraries?
The point is that to be an American should be to have a thick enough skin to tolerate speech one does not like, and flying a flag is speech, even if it is one that is offensive.
Things like Mein Kampf and Das Kapital are divisive and hurtful, does that mean they should be banned from public libraries?
Lest we lose sight of the fact, this is an issue of free speech. The confederate flag has been tolerated for the sake of freedom of speech. Likewise, KKK rallies and marches are tolerated for the sake of maintaining free speech.
The arguments in this article are that toleration has limits. And the limits are based on the content of the speech. The content is that whites are superior. The content is that fighting to defend slavery was a noble cause.
The most prevalent civil libertarian view is that speech - any outward declaration of one's views - should be tolerated, no matter how odious the view, no matter the content, as long as it does not incite violence, or amount to harassment. The argument for this view is that we need such tolerance so that the underdog, the minority view, is not persecuted, and political debates can be decided on the merits of either side's arguments, which cannot happen if one side's arguments have been suppressed.
But, as this article implies, there comes a time when there is no more room for reasonable argument. Tolerating the view that whites are superior, that fighting for a state's right to determine for itself whether whites have the right to enslave others, for the sake of not suppressing debate, serves no productive function when the debate has been won, when there is no longer room for reasonable disagreement.
If so, there are limits to free speech, and those limits have to do with content. That needs to be kept in mind.
The arguments in this article are that toleration has limits. And the limits are based on the content of the speech. The content is that whites are superior. The content is that fighting to defend slavery was a noble cause.
The most prevalent civil libertarian view is that speech - any outward declaration of one's views - should be tolerated, no matter how odious the view, no matter the content, as long as it does not incite violence, or amount to harassment. The argument for this view is that we need such tolerance so that the underdog, the minority view, is not persecuted, and political debates can be decided on the merits of either side's arguments, which cannot happen if one side's arguments have been suppressed.
But, as this article implies, there comes a time when there is no more room for reasonable argument. Tolerating the view that whites are superior, that fighting for a state's right to determine for itself whether whites have the right to enslave others, for the sake of not suppressing debate, serves no productive function when the debate has been won, when there is no longer room for reasonable disagreement.
If so, there are limits to free speech, and those limits have to do with content. That needs to be kept in mind.
24
this isn't just a free speech issue or just an issue of tolerance and its limits. what's at issue is the explicit state endorsement of a symbol of intolerance, oppression and hatred.
M Peirce - No this is not an issue of freedom of speech. The 1st Amendment prohibits Congress from making any laws that abridge free speech by individuals or private groups, but is not addressing the speech of government. The SC state legislature, which is supposed to represent the people of SC, is tasked with deciding which flags fly as symbols of the state on state property. The state can regulate its own speech through its elected leaders. The Supreme Court just affirmed the right of states to decide which symbols they put on state property in their decision to allow Texas to refuse to put the Confederate Battle Flag on license plates. Removal of the flag from the SC Capital or other state property does not prevent any private group or individual from flying the flag on their own property.
It's not about free speech. It's about whether the Confederate flag should fly about a government building: about whether the government endorses the speech. The Klan can wave the flag as much as they want.
1
I was born in New York City but have neen fascinated with the American Civil War. As an avid reader of that calamity, I have come to recognize that there was much moe at stake than the defense of slavery for the South, most Conferate soldiers did not own slaves. I believe that main issue was the right of individual states to determine their way of life which I believe is legitmate. Racism is not the fault of the Stars and Bars and those who use it for that purpose are both misguided and stupid. Leave the flag alone; to outlaw it just puts more resolve in the right to fly it.
6
It's funny you would say that, given that the explicit issue starting the war was the extension of slavery into the new territories, all the Southern leaders said that they were fighting to keep their slaves and their plantations loudly and clearly, and even the sainted Robert E. Lee owned slaves when the war began and only gave them up because the will that left him Arlington required it.
If I could suggest, read John Hope Franklin, "Up From Slavery." you'll find the material on Jim Crow most...instructive.
If I could suggest, read John Hope Franklin, "Up From Slavery." you'll find the material on Jim Crow most...instructive.
7
No one is suggesting it be outlawed. Just that it not be flown over the State Capitol. That august body is supposed to represent all citizens, not just white citizens.
Jeb Bush was right -- move it to a museum.
Jeb Bush was right -- move it to a museum.
2
Yes, the 15% of Southerners who owned slaves were also the leaders of Southern society, and they initiated the South's secession, but the vast majority of supporters of the Confederacy, once established, had no personal connection to the institution of slavery. You may argue that they went along because they were racists, but that conveniently overlooks the fact that very few people at the time were NOT racists. Even Lincoln made some breathtakingly racist assertions in the Lincoln-Douglas debates. Large historical events are very rarely the results of single causes, and while it suits the modern political narrative to reduce the Civil War to the first skirmish in the Civil Rights movement, it was also rooted in competing theories of government, industrialism vs. agrarianism, urban vs. rural, and so on.
The flag DOES need to come down, but because its appropriation by latter-day racists has obscured the complexity of its original meaning.
The flag DOES need to come down, but because its appropriation by latter-day racists has obscured the complexity of its original meaning.
Article III of the Constitution states: "Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying war against them, or in adhering to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort." There is no question that those who carried this flag into battle were levying war against the United States. It is therefore a Flag of Treason. Of that, there can be no doubt. To lionize it, as some do, is to lionize treason. Is that something that we want our governmental institutions to do?
14
I see so many comments from people who have never lived a day in the Deep South. I have never lived anywhere else. Every southerner is deeply attached to their home and their heritage and it is disrespectful to each and every southerner, regardless of skin color, to make so many judgemental comments without the benefit of living in our world.
The confederate flag is a symbol of what was the good, the bad, and the ugly. I have never looked at it as a symbol of hatred. I have always viewed it as a sign of our past, but never our present or our future.
But, in the end, it is just a piece of fabric. It does not represent friendships, relationships, or the esteem in which I hold my friends of every color. I respect my black friends, acquaintances, and the people I may pass on the street too much to want to keep a piece of cloth that may cause them hurt and anger.
The confederate flag is a symbol of what was the good, the bad, and the ugly. I have never looked at it as a symbol of hatred. I have always viewed it as a sign of our past, but never our present or our future.
But, in the end, it is just a piece of fabric. It does not represent friendships, relationships, or the esteem in which I hold my friends of every color. I respect my black friends, acquaintances, and the people I may pass on the street too much to want to keep a piece of cloth that may cause them hurt and anger.
41
A flag is just a "piece of fabric"?
Try telling that to a refugee who has been given a new life in our country or try telling that to the soldiers who defend our country how "insignificant" that piece of fabric on a flagpole is.
Try telling that to a refugee who has been given a new life in our country or try telling that to the soldiers who defend our country how "insignificant" that piece of fabric on a flagpole is.
I appreciate your comments and wish to add that the majority of people are "deeply attached to their home and their heritage" including people from states who have never lived with the "north/south mentality". We all take pride in the place we call 'home' but this is not a personal issue. The confederate battle flag does not just belong to the "south". It is a piece of our collective American story, and it represents an idea, a world view, that promotes "white supremacy" and the dehumanization and delegitimization of others cloaked under the notion of 'self-determination'. Regardless of our personal views (mine include growing up wanting a certain 69 Dodge Charger) the confederate battle flag is just that, a battle flag, raised to promote a failed idea. People (even states) should be free to fly it, however when they do, they join themselves to the idea the symbol represents...and that idea is the stripping away of home and heritage and dignity of some people for the express benefit of others. Yes it is a piece of cloth but it is a particular piece of cloth, a symbol, which evokes the very thing it represents which is an idea that has very little good and whole lot of bad and ugly. This is not a judgment on a people. It is a judgment on an idea. Separating the two is imperative in this debate. Thank you for your urging of its removal.
No. The confederate flag cannot be all things. It was the symbol of all who supported the ownership of other human beings. It represents lynchings, bombings, and all the vile deeds done by one group of people to another.
No one looks at that flag and sees lemonade, dainty ladies, and southern genteleman having a smoke. What they see is the multitudes of people living and working in fear. Working under the lash and the noose, so those dainty ladies and smoking gentlemen could have the life that is that "southern heritage". That is the meaning of the flag. That is the heritage, no matter what those of us in the south think. It is way more than a piece of cloth, it is a giant cloud of oppression still weighing on all beneath it.
No one looks at that flag and sees lemonade, dainty ladies, and southern genteleman having a smoke. What they see is the multitudes of people living and working in fear. Working under the lash and the noose, so those dainty ladies and smoking gentlemen could have the life that is that "southern heritage". That is the meaning of the flag. That is the heritage, no matter what those of us in the south think. It is way more than a piece of cloth, it is a giant cloud of oppression still weighing on all beneath it.
1
I do not understand this concept, Southern Pride.
The Civil War, or The War Between the States, or The War of Northern Aggression, the favored name of late among some, must rank as the greatest act of terrorism in this nation’s history, without close comparison.
Estimated 600,000 deaths, probably much more, injuries far greater in number, and a cost greater than $6 billion and who can estimate the percentage of Gross Domestic Product that number represents? Who can estimate the number of lives disrupted, never to return to their previous state.
Why do we not call that war a terrorist war? Easy answer, this one. Because we do not care to.
But a source of pride?
The Civil War, or The War Between the States, or The War of Northern Aggression, the favored name of late among some, must rank as the greatest act of terrorism in this nation’s history, without close comparison.
Estimated 600,000 deaths, probably much more, injuries far greater in number, and a cost greater than $6 billion and who can estimate the percentage of Gross Domestic Product that number represents? Who can estimate the number of lives disrupted, never to return to their previous state.
Why do we not call that war a terrorist war? Easy answer, this one. Because we do not care to.
But a source of pride?
4
The ways of the "old South" are not gone with the wind. They are not gone at all. Just as in the new South the past is not dead; it's not even past. The old northerners in their generosity and sympathy for the wrongful loss of so many sons in that awful war, allowed some kindnesses for their vanquished southern neighbors. There was a blurring of the truth for a hundred years or so. I, an old man raised in Connecticut, learned in my schools a soft tale of momentary disharmony instead of a real history of that war. It is not too late for truth telling. That "symbol of Southern pride and heritage" should be ground into the dirt as an artifact of murder and greed, as evil as the deeds it supposedly represents.
7
What a crock. After the Civil War, the Northern industrialists set up a form of debt slavery called the company store in the coal mining regions of Appalachia -- and you can still see the appalling results of that feudal system today.
Northern plutocrats did not fight the Civil War over slavery -- they fought it so that their prostitutes in Washington could form a tyranny over everyone. They fought it to steal the Pocahontas coal deposits of western Virginia -- the Saudi Oil fields of their day. Slavery was just a convenient propaganda issue that ignored how several Northern fortunes were founded on the slave trade. After the war, southern blacks quickly saw just how little the North cared about them.
Northern plutocrats did not fight the Civil War over slavery -- they fought it so that their prostitutes in Washington could form a tyranny over everyone. They fought it to steal the Pocahontas coal deposits of western Virginia -- the Saudi Oil fields of their day. Slavery was just a convenient propaganda issue that ignored how several Northern fortunes were founded on the slave trade. After the war, southern blacks quickly saw just how little the North cared about them.
"The old northerners in their generosity and sympathy for the wrongful loss of so many sons in that awful war, allowed some kindnesses for their vanquished southern neighbors."
To believe that is to be ignorant of the rapaciousness of Scalawags and Carpet Baggers who in complicity with Union military administrators allowed the South to be picked clean of its land crops because of an inability to pay taxes. To have to pay outrageous interest rates to the Northern bankers wh moved in when Southern banks failed. The was little reconstruction of he South during Reconstruction.
The only reason the military oversight was lifted was to buy the votes of Southern Electors so Samuel Tilden could be defeated for the presidency. It took nearly a century for the South to recover thanks to "reconstruction".
To believe that is to be ignorant of the rapaciousness of Scalawags and Carpet Baggers who in complicity with Union military administrators allowed the South to be picked clean of its land crops because of an inability to pay taxes. To have to pay outrageous interest rates to the Northern bankers wh moved in when Southern banks failed. The was little reconstruction of he South during Reconstruction.
The only reason the military oversight was lifted was to buy the votes of Southern Electors so Samuel Tilden could be defeated for the presidency. It took nearly a century for the South to recover thanks to "reconstruction".
The Confederate Flag also visualizes white privilege. As a white, middle-class American woman, I am not followed at grocery stores, at train stations, or driving through predominately not-white areas. I'm easily unaware of being white. A privilege. But when I'm with not-white friends, especially darker skinned ones, I notice the eyes trailing us. I feel uncomfortable as I become aware of my color. When people that look like me do hideous acts, such as Dylann Roof, I am not automatically grouped (and, often, feared) as one of "them." I benefit from my whiteness. I'm safe.
5
The removal of the stars and bars not only has a civil rights purpose, but an economic purpose. When people have their being in a 'not threatening position' they comfortably spend time, money and efforts to beautify and establish the particular area. As a black man, on a purely economic pespective, the question pertaining to the aforementioned, is multidementional; I have mentioned only one.
I know a lot about Southern pride. I often heard lamentations of the defeat of Lee and explanations as to how defeat in the "War of Northern Aggression" could have been avoided. As a Southerner, I echoed the "logic" of my parents and community in saying that old "heritage not hate" canard until my early twenties. Then I moved away from the small Southern town and its culture, and I realized just how twisted it is to root for the South. The entire war was about owning people like chattel. People who wanted the South to win avoid this ugly fact, claiming it's about "state's rights" and other bogus rationales. But at the end of the day, the entire war boiled down to slavery. If you are pro-South, you are pro-slavery. People who yearn for Old Dixie are yearning to be the rich white aristocrats whose wealth was wrung from the blood, sweat and tears of people abducted, chained and tortured for centuries. Anyone who wants to fly the Confederate flag is free to do so in America. But it marks them as either ignorant/naive (as I was), or deeply racist (as many others are).
185
The cost of 150 years of appeasing the south is the ongoing race problems we have today. The Confederacy, a 4 year loser on the battlefield, has been able to eek out a moral victory for an additional century and a half. Two of the three Civil War Amendments were never enforced. Reconstruction was abandoned abruptly as a payoff for supporting a President. Then the high court legalized segregation, another appeasement for the south that led to another century race hate predicted by the lone dissenter in Plessey. The Confederate flag evokes the same emotion as the Nazi Swastika- a symbol of race hate. It has to be removed from daily life. A little park in my city is Robert Lee Park, after the Confederate general. Yesterday it was decided that it will be renamed. So after 5 generations of appeasing the south, the park, which should have never been named after Lee, will get a new name.
5
That's OK. We'll keep the 15 or so military bases named after Confederate colonels and generals.
Take it down now Governor.
3
While we're at it can we retire "Sweet Home Alabama" too?
2
As soon as they stop playing "Southern Man".
Wait. I thought it was guns that killed people. Now it's flags? I can't keep up.
Yes I was being ironic. Does anyone REALLY think that flag had ANYTHING to do with the sick shooter's disordered thinking? In a nation of 300 million+ people we have some bad apples who just want to kill someone else. No?Dozens of young people are running off to Syria in the hope of killing someone. Most probably don't care who. Some shooters shoot up movie theaters. Others schools.
Some like Roof develop specific grudges. And if it were not for his hatred of blacks, does anyone really think he would not have worked up a hot hatred for some other group? Jews? Bowling lane operators? Hare Krishnas in airports? No, wait... they're gone.
It does no real harm to take down the flag if it makes us all feel good and self righteous and correctly virtuous. It's good to feel good. But it has nothing at all to do with the problem of mentally disordered homicidal maniacs.
The focus on the Confederate flag is a self delusion that takes our attention away from the real problem - one much harder than lowering a flag, and one we don't want to face anyway. To wit: insane/demented/immoral angry people with guns who kill others in wholesale lots. Not flags.
Yes I was being ironic. Does anyone REALLY think that flag had ANYTHING to do with the sick shooter's disordered thinking? In a nation of 300 million+ people we have some bad apples who just want to kill someone else. No?Dozens of young people are running off to Syria in the hope of killing someone. Most probably don't care who. Some shooters shoot up movie theaters. Others schools.
Some like Roof develop specific grudges. And if it were not for his hatred of blacks, does anyone really think he would not have worked up a hot hatred for some other group? Jews? Bowling lane operators? Hare Krishnas in airports? No, wait... they're gone.
It does no real harm to take down the flag if it makes us all feel good and self righteous and correctly virtuous. It's good to feel good. But it has nothing at all to do with the problem of mentally disordered homicidal maniacs.
The focus on the Confederate flag is a self delusion that takes our attention away from the real problem - one much harder than lowering a flag, and one we don't want to face anyway. To wit: insane/demented/immoral angry people with guns who kill others in wholesale lots. Not flags.
2
So why is the Nazi Swastika Flag derided so much? The Nazi Flag did not kill anyone- it's just a piece of cloth.
Should Germans fly the Nazi Flag claiming "heritage".
The confederate flag flying folks are simply old fashioned racists who want to show blacks their "place" by flying that despicable flag.
I would pressure corporations like BMW to raise the heat on these bigots so that they come to their senses. We must make it clear that hatred does not pay.
Should Germans fly the Nazi Flag claiming "heritage".
The confederate flag flying folks are simply old fashioned racists who want to show blacks their "place" by flying that despicable flag.
I would pressure corporations like BMW to raise the heat on these bigots so that they come to their senses. We must make it clear that hatred does not pay.
So you wouldn't care much if people flew Nazi flags in public, too? Since as you say, flags don't kill.
My immigrant ancestor came to this country in 1634 and settled in Connecticut. I don't venerate his memory and, in fact, his well-documented role in burning a Pequot village makes me feel a little sick. He owned slaves: black people imported from the Caribbean and members of the defeated Pequot tribe. He made a fortune selling baked goods to feed the slaves on Caribbean plantations. He lived in a world that is as alien to me as that occupied by the contemporary Taliban.
For those who think the Confederate flag honors your ancestors, I'd suggest that it might be a mistake to feel that you have to approve everything your progenitors did. Fighting and dying for a mistake might be hard to accept, but it happened almost 150 years ago. Hating the Yankees who surprised your ancestors by being willing to fight for the union and to defeat the principle that the states can decide that it's OK to own other human beings is kind of futile at this time. It may also be hard to accept that some of the underlying causes of the Civil War were the interests of the wealthy in both the North and South, but that's another story.
Do you really want to reject the idea that all people should enjoy basic civil rights no matter what the color of their skin? That seems to be what the flag came to represent back in the 1060s It would be more productive to resolve to reject all the racial dog-whistles that politicians use to acquire political power. Racism should not be seen as a conservative value.
For those who think the Confederate flag honors your ancestors, I'd suggest that it might be a mistake to feel that you have to approve everything your progenitors did. Fighting and dying for a mistake might be hard to accept, but it happened almost 150 years ago. Hating the Yankees who surprised your ancestors by being willing to fight for the union and to defeat the principle that the states can decide that it's OK to own other human beings is kind of futile at this time. It may also be hard to accept that some of the underlying causes of the Civil War were the interests of the wealthy in both the North and South, but that's another story.
Do you really want to reject the idea that all people should enjoy basic civil rights no matter what the color of their skin? That seems to be what the flag came to represent back in the 1060s It would be more productive to resolve to reject all the racial dog-whistles that politicians use to acquire political power. Racism should not be seen as a conservative value.
4
The great curse of democracy through the ages is contending with ethnic racial and religious bigotry. To cause good folk to step away from the poison and act in everyone's interest is almost impossible. Wanting to win an election and the power and wealth that comes with it, corrupts every moralist and can ruin even the most idealistic. The founding fathers knew all of this quite well and made a tragic bargain with slavery and those who saw themselves as agents of God. Republicans were almost erased as a party by FDR and the coming of a new populist federalism. Nixon no bigot in general gave in to a "Southern Strategy" and thus renewed the poison. How ironic that now the big box businesses that have come south in recent decades and financed the GOP are the quiet voices saying, "Enough!" to the slow minded legislatures! South Carolina has seen a genuine influx of wealth and does not want to risk it. In the end real change will come to Dixie not as a moral imperative but as a financial incentive.
1
I read about my own governor's evasive (and utterly unsurprising) reply when he was asked about a very prominent Confederate flag flying at a major intersection of two significant highways, near the entrance to Hillsborough County here in Florida. His answer was similar to language used last week by people who preferred to shame the questioners by admonishing them for asking such a thing when we are still mourning a fresh loss. Of course, Gov. Scott has made an art of evasive non-answers, and he'll likely continue to do so, even after Gov. Haley and many other Southern conservatives have finally realized that perhaps this is an action that ought to be taken - both because of, and in spite of, fresh mourning of such a tragedy.
This is a long overdue, yet still necessary, action. One need only understand the history of why and how the flag came to be raised to see that - as noted in this editorial, it is a history rife with manipulation and aggressive resistance with "who, me?" attitudes and the false cloak of "heritage." While our open society must err on the side of free speech in most situations, there is an enormous and crucial difference between the flag an individual choose to place on his or her private property, and the flag a state government flies in a prominent and official location.
This is a long overdue, yet still necessary, action. One need only understand the history of why and how the flag came to be raised to see that - as noted in this editorial, it is a history rife with manipulation and aggressive resistance with "who, me?" attitudes and the false cloak of "heritage." While our open society must err on the side of free speech in most situations, there is an enormous and crucial difference between the flag an individual choose to place on his or her private property, and the flag a state government flies in a prominent and official location.
3
If the confederate flag is a symbol of identity and pride in the South, then for those who atach only those sentiments to the flag, this is the price of complacently allowing the flag to be hijacked by white supremesists and let it become a symbol of hatred. Take it down.
4
This would be a perfect time for reasonable Americans to Google and read "Why The South Must Prevail" by William F. Buckley, the Godfather of modern "conservatism".
In this white paper (no pun intended), Buckley proposes that whites retain political power long after they are outnumbered by non-whites at the polls because - quite simply - whites are genetically superior to non-whites.
It is this white supremacist ideology that permeates the Republican Party's "base", fueled by a daily dose of thinly veiled racism from "right" wing talk radio, especially a certain individual at Noon and another at 3PM.
There was another political party in history that espoused white supremacy and blamed non-whites, immigrants, certain religions and - of course - "Liberal Intellectuals" for everything wrong in their country. You know the rest of that story; let's make sure it's not repeated here in the US.
In this white paper (no pun intended), Buckley proposes that whites retain political power long after they are outnumbered by non-whites at the polls because - quite simply - whites are genetically superior to non-whites.
It is this white supremacist ideology that permeates the Republican Party's "base", fueled by a daily dose of thinly veiled racism from "right" wing talk radio, especially a certain individual at Noon and another at 3PM.
There was another political party in history that espoused white supremacy and blamed non-whites, immigrants, certain religions and - of course - "Liberal Intellectuals" for everything wrong in their country. You know the rest of that story; let's make sure it's not repeated here in the US.
4
Psychopaths like Buckley have set the recent course of evolution of the US.
1
There was no glory in the American civil war. There was nothing civil about it or the "southern way of life" where a few very wealthy land and slave owners led privileged "aristocratic" lives. The dogged determination of a few to keep the hate, fear, violence and racism alive MUST be stopped NOW. There is no place for racism, fear, hate and violence in America. The vast majority of us want a safe, civil society and only OUR VOTES can make it so.
12
Politicos are programmed to double talk
Aside from its being a symbol of hate/slavery (and , that's a big aside), this flag is a symbol of rebellion. A long bloody war was fought to put down that rebellion and what it stood for. The rebels lost so why should it be given a place of honor.
There are many ways to honor the Confederate dead, but, flying this flag isn't one of them.
There are many ways to honor the Confederate dead, but, flying this flag isn't one of them.
18
The two most toxic messages projected by the Confederate battle flag are the promotion of racism and guns - both clearly at play in the Charleston massacre. Anyone who doesn't see the correlation is in serious denial.
29
I found the Governor's speech disappointing --- in one breath she says it was time for South Carolina to move on, in the next breath she says, the flag represents a proud heritage of in the history of her state---really!!! I was waiting for the right comment, which is, that flag has flown above some of the most horrendous acts in American History. Her continual equivocations on the past and present meanings of the flag says to me, that South Carolina is not moved forward, but just moved sideways.
14
The present flag of the United States of America has flown over more horrendous situations and more of them than the Battle Flag ever will. Ask any reservation dwelling descendant of the first people's of America. Ask anyone who grew up in a Japanese internment camp of the 1940s. Or native Hawaiians invaded so fruit and sugar growers could have cheap land.
After you've examined the record of the US under its flag can you then condemn Southerners and their flag.
After you've examined the record of the US under its flag can you then condemn Southerners and their flag.
What a ridiculous false flag (pun intended). Setting aside the moral question of what the Confederate Flag stands for, etc., if anyone seriously thinks that taking it down has any potential whatsoever to precipitate any racial pacification, he betrays a fundamental misapprehension of the nature of racism in modern America. Truly violent white racists may have nostalgia for some aspects of the culture and the political heritage of the Deep South, but they rarely appreciate the Confederacy and in fact many are bitterly opposed to saluting it or its legacy because they see it as an attempt to politically divide and therefore dilute the power of white Westerners. The few journalists such as Carol Swain who have made any serious attempts at objective surveys of the matter without sounding as though they are about to go into conniptions tend to be ignored, and I'd say this raises serious questions as to the competency of most journalists to write lucidly on racial matters.
3
As things are not simple a to b processes in life and there is much Grey area and intricacies to be considered when dealing with issues such as race relations in America, i don't think anyone is or has been suggesting that removing the comfederate flag will magically and in one fell swoop "end racism" in this country. Thats why complex problems require many steps and many options or "plans of action", not indifference , apathy, and downright callous inaction. That logic is the same as to pass a starving child on the street and not share a piece of your bread with him just because it would only help his hunger and not actually eradicate world hunger completely, itself..
Take down the virtual NRA flag flying high and mighty above the US Capitol. It is a symbol of violence.
12
Please do not let the state of Mississippi off the hook.
It's well past time that they remove the Confederate battle flag from their state flag.
It's well past time that they remove the Confederate battle flag from their state flag.
21
"Senator Lindsey Graham, a Republican presidential candidate from South Carolina, who initially said the flag was “part of who we are,” urged the Legislature to remove the flag from the Capitol grounds." Too late Senator. We know who you are.
Flying the flag of the only genuine threat to ever war with America should be an outrage to all Americans. It is the Republican "southern strategy" that exploits the racists and raises their racism to the Capitol of 11 southern states who are responsible for the fraud that the Confederate flag can be revered, has no racist meaning, is not criminal. Letting the Republicans scurry away like Graham, letting all southern states with the Confederate flag veiled in their state flags persist is irresponsible. Racists and racism has no place in America and manipulating racists and racism to take political power and deprive all Americans of their right to vote is un-American. Let every state flag with the Confederate symbolism be rejected. Every Republican should be held accountable for all racist acts, memberships, money, and voting records. If it looks racist it is racist.
Flying the flag of the only genuine threat to ever war with America should be an outrage to all Americans. It is the Republican "southern strategy" that exploits the racists and raises their racism to the Capitol of 11 southern states who are responsible for the fraud that the Confederate flag can be revered, has no racist meaning, is not criminal. Letting the Republicans scurry away like Graham, letting all southern states with the Confederate flag veiled in their state flags persist is irresponsible. Racists and racism has no place in America and manipulating racists and racism to take political power and deprive all Americans of their right to vote is un-American. Let every state flag with the Confederate symbolism be rejected. Every Republican should be held accountable for all racist acts, memberships, money, and voting records. If it looks racist it is racist.
16
I worked for some years in a plant in the South. One day I walked into an area of the plant worked by guys for whom I had a lot of time - conscientious careful workers. There was a Confederate flag on the wall. I questioned this. The supervisor said 'the Civil War ain't over yet', with a totally straight face. Um!!
15
As much as I find the flying of the Confederate Battle Flag loathsome, let's not forget that a lot of national flags are tied to a record of racism. Even the revered Union Jack of Britain isn't immune, given the country's brutally bigoted colonial past.
The irony could not be more obvious and embracing.
A foolish and depraved young man who wished for a "race war" and decorated his thoughts and actions with the battle flag of the confederacy will now watch that flag condemned and taken down.
Stupid criminals get their just rewards.
A foolish and depraved young man who wished for a "race war" and decorated his thoughts and actions with the battle flag of the confederacy will now watch that flag condemned and taken down.
Stupid criminals get their just rewards.
10
He was/is a criminal
He is also a homegrown political terrorist
Words matter
He is also a homegrown political terrorist
Words matter
Let's us hope that bringing down this flag, and what it stands for. Can give rise to a movement bringing freedom to all Americans, and that means the vote for all; blacks, whites, latinos, asians. felons, prisoners etc. No person in this country should be without the vote.
9
I assume you are magnanimously including Dylann Roof in your inclusive list of voters.
Yes. And you too...GLC whomever you are. If the victims' survivors can forgive him, so can I.
Isn't it interesting that the deranged acts of a racist loser, who was motivated by the equally racist Council of Conservative Citizens, finally did something that obliges the far right to take action that they would never have taken of their own accord?
The pity is that it took the deaths of nine innocent people under the most shocking circumstance for this to happen.
How do we get the NRA to come to Its senses? Or is that even possible? How bad would the carnage have to be for that to happen?
The pity is that it took the deaths of nine innocent people under the most shocking circumstance for this to happen.
How do we get the NRA to come to Its senses? Or is that even possible? How bad would the carnage have to be for that to happen?
157
The NRA is Dylan Roof.
Thank you for your eloquent post--and for noting that easy access to lethal weapons by angry hatemongers is also a factor in this tragedy.
The NRA has nothing to do with this.
Removing the flag will not remove the deeply held beliefs that it represents.
Removing it will not erase the the past, nor create a better future.
There will still be people who hate others for the color of their skin.
The KKK is still among us, and other hate groups. They will still use it as an emblem of their hatred.
The truth is that we won't stop hating one another until we learn to treat each other as human beings first.
Removing it will not erase the the past, nor create a better future.
There will still be people who hate others for the color of their skin.
The KKK is still among us, and other hate groups. They will still use it as an emblem of their hatred.
The truth is that we won't stop hating one another until we learn to treat each other as human beings first.
2
All that you say is true.... but removing the flag is still a good idea. And while we're at it, that hateful black flag that grew out of Vietnam. America has one flag.
So, racism will always exist, just submit and do nothing then, is the jist ofmwhat youre saying? @maryhilton ? Even the most gigamtic and complicated and seemingly untangle able problems we face as a country, a society, as a family of human beings -- we have to break down even the biggest mountains piece by piece, chiseling dust and tiny pebbles of rocks off of the mountain if nothing else, knowing that in our generation we may never break that mountain down--but nevermgiving up or beimg inactive in oir efforts, because we must teach amd show our next generations to keep chiseling away after we are gone, if that mountain is not yet broken down... and therefore every seemingly "small" gesture or movement we make p, if genuine, is certainly quite the opposite, over history's long mural of time. #nogenuinemovementissmall
The decision to remove the confederate flag deserves some credit. Good for the Republicans, worrying about the potentially negative effect of the flag flying at the State House during the 2016 election. To me, this seems like the right decision for wrong reasons. That view highlights a deeper concern - why should we praise politicians who defend or passively permit symbols of hatred to continue to infect society, until it becomes inconvenient?
8
Didn't South lose the war? This flag is a symbol of hatred and most southerners know it.
17
As an independent I usually side with the democrats as can't stand republicans using horrific tragedies to score political points like when a Islamic terrorist happens. Sadly the NYT has show itself to be no better as today's headline focuses on GOP contributions from a repulsive group. We all know that candidates receive thousands of individual donations and both Dems and GOP end up giving money back if public event happens with donor so the NYT is simply using a horrific tragedy to zing the GOP and is no better than those right wing zellots who so same thing. This flag issue also, while I agree it should be removed, is also mostly politics and the NYT should instead focus on the victims
4
With respect to Mayor Joseph P. Riley, the Confederate flag represents not Southern pride, but Southern treason, especially in South Carolina, first to fire shots in the War of Southern Aggression and first to secede amongst its peer states. Although maybe that's what Southern pride really means.
25
I agree Stephan. Of course the flag needs to come down and be outlawed as it is an obnoxious symbol of racism to a good percentage of our people. Yet what is also very disturbing about this "symbol" is the glorification of treason against our country. The CW was partially fought to strengthen the federal government and to diminish the right of states to rebel against the law of the land. This flag perpetuates the south's persistent rebellion against the greater good (voter's rights, access to abortion, etc.)
There seems to be an expectation that, somehow, if we remove offensive language and symbols, we'll be a more decent society. Language and symbols matter. They just don't matter very much, or at least as much as the media, politicians, academics, and activists think they do.
In spite of the President's use of the "N" word the other day, the "N" word has become a taboo. Other forms of racist verbal expression have become taboos as well (see Imus, Don; Sterling, Donald; Greek, Jimmy The; and so on). And yet, African-Americans continue to suffer from disproportionate levels of poverty, incarceration, and other social ills. Even worse, we still have atrocities like Charleston.
Removing racist language and symbols from society is an easy way out for us. It makes us feel good. It gives us instant gratification, leading us to believe that we have accomplished something important in the struggle against injustice. But the impact is really trivial.
So let's take down the Stars and Bars. Fine. Let's not use the "N" word. Fine. Just don't get your hopes up. Disproportionate levels of poverty, incarceration, and so on will persist. And, God forbid, another Charleston-like atrocity may repeat.
In spite of the President's use of the "N" word the other day, the "N" word has become a taboo. Other forms of racist verbal expression have become taboos as well (see Imus, Don; Sterling, Donald; Greek, Jimmy The; and so on). And yet, African-Americans continue to suffer from disproportionate levels of poverty, incarceration, and other social ills. Even worse, we still have atrocities like Charleston.
Removing racist language and symbols from society is an easy way out for us. It makes us feel good. It gives us instant gratification, leading us to believe that we have accomplished something important in the struggle against injustice. But the impact is really trivial.
So let's take down the Stars and Bars. Fine. Let's not use the "N" word. Fine. Just don't get your hopes up. Disproportionate levels of poverty, incarceration, and so on will persist. And, God forbid, another Charleston-like atrocity may repeat.
7
If we expect to change behavior, then removing offensive symbols and language would seem to be the least we should do. Allowing them sends the signal that hate should be tolerated.
The Confederate Flag is only a symbolic piece of cloth A piece of history that reminds the nation of a Civil War that cost the lives of 750,000 Americans in a nation of 30 million. Fought over the rights of the citizens of some states to own other human beings as chattel property based upon their dusky colored Sub-Saharan hue.
After the Civil War end of Reconstruction, white American reconciliation abandoned blacks to the Jim Crow of Plessy v. Ferguson. And the legalized white supremacist depredations of the Democratic Party Virginia son of the Confederacy President Thomas Woodrow Wilson. The flag was openly displayed once again as an emblem of defiance and pride in the midst of the 2nd Reconstruction aka the Civil Rights era. A reflection of angry white hearts and minds.
As long as the Confederate flag continues to wave in the hearts of minds of those who lament the nostalgic "Lost Cause" while whistling Dixie then this is all form facile sophistry. No need for "The Battle Hymn of the Republic" nor lionizing Abraham Lincoln and John Brown. But we do have a national flag that symbolizes these United States in the "..dawn's early light."
Going secretly underground does not erase nor change the mental emotional reality of the division of colored American hatred and fear. Where is the real American human being personal shame, guilt, empathy and humanity among brothers and sisters? Cue "Love's In Need of Love Today" Stevie Wonder.
After the Civil War end of Reconstruction, white American reconciliation abandoned blacks to the Jim Crow of Plessy v. Ferguson. And the legalized white supremacist depredations of the Democratic Party Virginia son of the Confederacy President Thomas Woodrow Wilson. The flag was openly displayed once again as an emblem of defiance and pride in the midst of the 2nd Reconstruction aka the Civil Rights era. A reflection of angry white hearts and minds.
As long as the Confederate flag continues to wave in the hearts of minds of those who lament the nostalgic "Lost Cause" while whistling Dixie then this is all form facile sophistry. No need for "The Battle Hymn of the Republic" nor lionizing Abraham Lincoln and John Brown. But we do have a national flag that symbolizes these United States in the "..dawn's early light."
Going secretly underground does not erase nor change the mental emotional reality of the division of colored American hatred and fear. Where is the real American human being personal shame, guilt, empathy and humanity among brothers and sisters? Cue "Love's In Need of Love Today" Stevie Wonder.
5
It is well known that "Birth Of A Nation" was President Wilson's favorite film and was frequently shown in the White House. He also reintroduced segregation in Washington DC.
1
My paternal great grandfather was born and raised in South Carolina and served, initially as a young flag bearer, in the Confederate Army. He was wounded and captured.
My maternal great grandfather, whose family emigrated from Ireland when he was a small child, served in the Union Army with a Pennsylvania detachment. He also was wounded.
Beginning more than a century ago, the Stars and Bars became a symbol for those who wanted to continue the oppression of black Americans in the South under Jim Crow. The politicians who have used the Confederate flag to rally support nowadays call themselves – with great irony – Republicans.
The Stars and Bars has its place, but only under glass in a museum. Anywhere else it is offensive.
My maternal great grandfather, whose family emigrated from Ireland when he was a small child, served in the Union Army with a Pennsylvania detachment. He also was wounded.
Beginning more than a century ago, the Stars and Bars became a symbol for those who wanted to continue the oppression of black Americans in the South under Jim Crow. The politicians who have used the Confederate flag to rally support nowadays call themselves – with great irony – Republicans.
The Stars and Bars has its place, but only under glass in a museum. Anywhere else it is offensive.
23
I am a Son of the Confederacy, but after years of study and reflection, I am not proud of it. It is just a recognition of fact. Now I feel like my middle-class ancestors were duped by a rich, planter class, who had control of the media at the time, were accustomed to running things in Washington and after losing their political dominance to the new western states and finding their capitalist plans for the expansion of their anachronistic, slave-based empire thwarted, had to whip up an emotional, jingoistic, xenophobic secessionist scheme that backfired on us all. Sure, there was plenty of pure self-sacrifice and courage but there was also merciless conscription, deserters hung by the thousands and opposition smothered by cruel power. The Confederate flag is a relic of a sad lack of wisdom, of political manipulation and of a middle-class who acted against their own best-interests. Hey! Doesn't this sound familiar? Take down that flag.
45
I live in Atlanta and seldom see the Stars and Bars here, but I've travelled extensively through the South and have seen this symbol far more often than I care to. The flag symbolizes treason, racism, and the defense of slavery. For God's sake, take it off the State Capitol. Don't proudly let the symbol of an attempt to destroy the Union fly in the clear blue sky.
The GOP claims Lincoln, but behave in a manner that would horrify him.
The GOP claims Lincoln, but behave in a manner that would horrify him.
31
'Mayor Joseph P. Riley Jr. of Charleston, a voice of sanity throughout this tragedy, framed the matter in exactly the right way when he said that, even though the battle flag symbolized “Southern pride” to some people, it had a much more sinister meaning to others.'
We need to be very careful when we gear our actions to what may be ' a much more sinister meaning to others.'
A substantial number of people, including the Pope, see abortion as murder. Is it? I don't think so, but should we ban it to save the feelings of those who do see it as murder? I dare say most commenters here would say no.
Be cautious when deciding issues on what something 'means' to some people. Be very, very cautious.
We need to be very careful when we gear our actions to what may be ' a much more sinister meaning to others.'
A substantial number of people, including the Pope, see abortion as murder. Is it? I don't think so, but should we ban it to save the feelings of those who do see it as murder? I dare say most commenters here would say no.
Be cautious when deciding issues on what something 'means' to some people. Be very, very cautious.
5
Oh please. How disingenuous. You picked the wrong topic to plead that case. I'm tired of people getting away with bigotry,, racism, and discrimination and wonton assault weaponry ownership under the guuse of free speech and "slippery" slopes. Everyone knows what that flag stands for - the ones who want it down and the ones who want to keep it.
Your analogy to abortion is not a good one. Abortion is an action that a woman takes to resolve the problem of an unwanted pregnancy. The act of abortion is not a belief or an endorsement of the action, nor does the support of legal abortion by millions mean we "like" it. Abortion has continued throughout human history and no denying of access will ever make it go away. The "confederacy" is a symbol of an historic rebellion against the government of the US, along with the historic battle to at least legally upturn its most oppressive feature. The meaning of the confederacy cannot be reasonably parsed, and those who defend it know exactly what they are defending.
There are many Confederate war memorials throughout the South. Most Southerners believe that, however wrong slavery was, young men who died defending their country merit the honor, that the soldiers were as honorable as Vietnam and Iraq war veterans, even though the national policy was wrong. Some have taken the view that such war memorials are offensive. China and Japan are deeply divided over a similar split. If the South were required to ban war memorials, I believe they simply would not. This is a harder question than the flag question and, if ever brought up, is unlikely to be resolved by consensus.
2
A little known fact. All Confederate War memorials with a soldier face North. The South did not turn and run when confronted.
Nazi flags and symbols, along with memorials honoring fallen Nazis, are illegal in Germany today. There are war cemeteries, to be sure, but they eschew grandiose memorials and feature simple crosses over the graves. There is a consensus in today's Germany that the Nazi heritage had to be, and must continue to be, extirpated from the cultural life of the nation. Eventually a similar consensus will develop in the American South. It will have to, as we move further into an era of reason and tolerance.
It was not "their country;" to defend. The civil war and those who engaged in it were treasonous to the USA.
Those Republicans who reduce South Carolina's Confederate flag to a "state's rights" issue conveniently avail themselves of the typical Republican party line that the Federal government is somehow a threat to freedom. Don't let them get away with it. White supremacy groups and their racial hatreds are confined to no state borders, especially in a world so connected by the internet. Claiming -- as did Rubio, Bush, Huckabee, Fiorina, and Walker -- that it's all South Carolina's business -- but of course hoping "they will do the right thing" or some such other pabulum -- is a cheap cop-out. Worse, it is clever, self-serving political calculus, and a spineless "leading from behind," as Republicans have so often unjustly claimed about our black President. The symbol of the Confederacy deserves no place in any state's pantheon of official symbols. It should be removed from any state government flag or grounds on which it appears. Real leaders would be saying so, and moving swiftly on the other issue conveniently being buried here -- gun control.
154
>
The test will be after this horrible episode passes and we move into DEC when the SC politicians pony up to vote it up or down. That will be the only poll that counts. Do not be surprised if things do not turnout the way you think they are going to. SC is a rightwing State.
The test will be after this horrible episode passes and we move into DEC when the SC politicians pony up to vote it up or down. That will be the only poll that counts. Do not be surprised if things do not turnout the way you think they are going to. SC is a rightwing State.
2
However, they lost one of their own in the massacre. From what I understand, a Republican state senator is introducing legislation to remove the flag, because, he said, he lost a friend and colleague for no other reason than the color of his skin. I hope they all do the right thing and vote for removal.
While I really want to see this symbol of racism and intolerance removed from all public buildings, I must disagree with those here that would ban it like Germany has banned the Nazi flag. Most importantly, we hold the First Amendment in very high regard. The right to show your own ignorance and hatred should not impeded.
Keeping the confederate flag legal would serve a couple legitimate purposes:
1) Allowing racist and intolerant people to self-identify would make it easier for use to shun them and relegate them to the treacherous minority they are.
2) How could we burn confederate flags if they were banned?
Keeping the confederate flag legal would serve a couple legitimate purposes:
1) Allowing racist and intolerant people to self-identify would make it easier for use to shun them and relegate them to the treacherous minority they are.
2) How could we burn confederate flags if they were banned?
6
I dont think people are advocating making them illegal, i agree thay would not be the best idea or very american at all. But theres a difference between being abke to own for personal use or for a club etc vs governmental bodies and states of this country, supposedly "United", being able to claim the same rights as personal citizens ; they are held to ,uch higher standards and responsibilities; they are governing bodies, not a person who may or may not want to fly a comfederate flag outside of their home (which as long as isnt breaking any city or municipal laws should be legal i agree, but states and governing bodies should be and ARE held to higher standards. )
Allowing the flag to fly means that you condone hatred and slavery. If it stays up, the deniers win.
While we're taking down flags, take a look at the state flag of Mississippi. The stars and bars are right there, up in the corner where the stars of the stars and stripes would be. As if to suggest that the "southern pride" is still there, in the back of each citizens' mind.
Take the stars and bars down. Change the state flag of Mississippi. But be careful that too much of this may cause an opposite reaction and more race-related violence.
Let's move forward by helping those who feel marginalized and angry by all this, not by punishing them just to calm our collective guilty conscience.
Take the stars and bars down. Change the state flag of Mississippi. But be careful that too much of this may cause an opposite reaction and more race-related violence.
Let's move forward by helping those who feel marginalized and angry by all this, not by punishing them just to calm our collective guilty conscience.
2
Short term ,but essential attempt to fix our racial issues. The Nazi flag is gone,but there's still Nazi groups in Germany. Education and family are the key.
Be careful though..To much media exposure on this topic can only embolden more crazies ,black and white..watch your language Mr Obama. If the President can normalize words, despite context it creates misunderstandings....see C. Delores Tucker...she said ,hip hop/rap culture is the worst thing to happen to America...
Be careful though..To much media exposure on this topic can only embolden more crazies ,black and white..watch your language Mr Obama. If the President can normalize words, despite context it creates misunderstandings....see C. Delores Tucker...she said ,hip hop/rap culture is the worst thing to happen to America...
1
I agree that education, both at home and in school, is essential. Hate that is taught from the cradle is so very difficult to cast aside.
But I am baffled by the reaction so many have had to President Obama's inarguably accurate observation. Too many Americans seem to think that because overt racism, especially involving "the n-word," can lead to a person being shamed and shunned by most people, then racism is largely not a significant issue in this country. In that case, is it any wonder that many people will latch on to removing the stars and bars as a panacea and the conclusion of this tragedy, rather than seeing it for what it is? - a starting step into a much more comprehensive dialogue and movement about race and prejudice in the U.S.
Obama spoke the truth - yet the media largely proved his point in a negative, if inadvertent, way. Other people, with their own set of motives, choose to divorce his simple, honest comments from their context and meaning. I don't think he needs to be careful with his words in this case - I think many other people need to set aside "that word" for a moment and ask themselves if they can actually disagree with the comments he made. I suspect they agree with his view more closely when they're less focused on the loathsome "n word."
But I am baffled by the reaction so many have had to President Obama's inarguably accurate observation. Too many Americans seem to think that because overt racism, especially involving "the n-word," can lead to a person being shamed and shunned by most people, then racism is largely not a significant issue in this country. In that case, is it any wonder that many people will latch on to removing the stars and bars as a panacea and the conclusion of this tragedy, rather than seeing it for what it is? - a starting step into a much more comprehensive dialogue and movement about race and prejudice in the U.S.
Obama spoke the truth - yet the media largely proved his point in a negative, if inadvertent, way. Other people, with their own set of motives, choose to divorce his simple, honest comments from their context and meaning. I don't think he needs to be careful with his words in this case - I think many other people need to set aside "that word" for a moment and ask themselves if they can actually disagree with the comments he made. I suspect they agree with his view more closely when they're less focused on the loathsome "n word."
I agree-- Obama really blew it when he said the n-word. Was this some desperate attempt to appear cool, relevant, hip? Sad and beneath the dignity of the presidency.
The simple fact that this flag is the symbol of choice for so many white supremacists is reason enough for it's removal. If these individuals, among others, continue to display this flag on their personal property then that is their right. But having it prominently displayed on public property is a tacit endorsement of racist ideals and allows racists to believe that their views are perfectly acceptable to a state, town or school district and the people who make up those communities.
4
To those who say the flag is heritage not hate:
The Civil War ended 150 years ago. If you had family involved, they are certainly long deceased. He might have been your great-great grandfather probably or great grandfather possibly.
Yet you demand respect from the rest of us for a symbol that you personally never had to sacrifice a whit for.
On the other hand, those who lived through Jim Crow, a shameful remnant of revenge and violence upon the ex-slaves who were killed by the thousands during Reconstruction, are still very much alive. The Civil Rights Act was only 50 years ago and there are more than a few who are recall the terrorism of having to live through that era as a black person. Lynchings, cross burning, job discrimination, beatings, false arrests, bad schools, humiliation with regards to public facilities such as transportation, and the list goes on.Those folks who lived and suffered terribly through that era are alive today.
And you expect them to forget what they actually experienced in deference to what you read in your history books.
Sorry, but you have no stake in this debate other than old family history.
Those of you who whine about the right to honor great grandparents' sacrifices need to consider the rights of those who actually walked the walk of what that flag means to them.
And they are your fellow citizens who pay taxes, die in wars and contribute to the success of our United States.
The Civil War ended 150 years ago. If you had family involved, they are certainly long deceased. He might have been your great-great grandfather probably or great grandfather possibly.
Yet you demand respect from the rest of us for a symbol that you personally never had to sacrifice a whit for.
On the other hand, those who lived through Jim Crow, a shameful remnant of revenge and violence upon the ex-slaves who were killed by the thousands during Reconstruction, are still very much alive. The Civil Rights Act was only 50 years ago and there are more than a few who are recall the terrorism of having to live through that era as a black person. Lynchings, cross burning, job discrimination, beatings, false arrests, bad schools, humiliation with regards to public facilities such as transportation, and the list goes on.Those folks who lived and suffered terribly through that era are alive today.
And you expect them to forget what they actually experienced in deference to what you read in your history books.
Sorry, but you have no stake in this debate other than old family history.
Those of you who whine about the right to honor great grandparents' sacrifices need to consider the rights of those who actually walked the walk of what that flag means to them.
And they are your fellow citizens who pay taxes, die in wars and contribute to the success of our United States.
261
Len, yours is the best post of the day.
What is called here the "Confederate Flag," and "the Confederate battle flag" was, in fact, the battle flag of the Army of Northern Virginia. But what do facts matter to bigots? That flag became a symbol of rebellion, rejection, of longing for lost supremacy, and a symbol of hate and division.
Flags morph in significance but remain significant. Check the rows over flags in Northern Ireland. And check the relationship between the founder of the Democratic Unionists of NI (The Rev. Ian Paisley, provocateur extraordinaire) with Bob Jones University of South Carolina. Joined at the hip by sour religion. Calvin, prophet of the Old South, and his Scottish disciple, John Knox, revered by Paisley and NI his followers.
Flags morph in significance but remain significant. Check the rows over flags in Northern Ireland. And check the relationship between the founder of the Democratic Unionists of NI (The Rev. Ian Paisley, provocateur extraordinaire) with Bob Jones University of South Carolina. Joined at the hip by sour religion. Calvin, prophet of the Old South, and his Scottish disciple, John Knox, revered by Paisley and NI his followers.
1
No one ever believed that flag was merely a symbol of Southern Pride! It was always a dark and horrifying reminder of what this Country was like, how it treated its people and why it almost was destroyed. It symbolized treason and traitors because that's who and what the confederates were . It was used as a symbol after Brown Vs. Board of Education to intimidate, harass and let all know the South would not change. What pride is their in a society who stood for the enslavement of people? What pride is there for a society that makes people drink out of separate fountains, ride in the back of the bus, swim in separate pools or get lynched! It is hard to imagine it took the slaughter of innocent people studying the Bible at Church for the Republicans to finally stop playing the State's rights game and admit exactly what that flag symbolized and that for our society to move forward , it had to come down,
186
You have forgotten, or maybe never realized, since American History being taught today is so skewed, that the flag that most represents treason, horrific trade in human beings and the equally degrading Jim Crow laws was our good old Stars and Stripes. The Confederacy only lasted for four short years, The Republic that the Stars and Stripes represents centuries of racism and brutality.
South Carolina needs to take down the so called confederate battle flag for the grounds of their state capital now.
It was a usurpation of the historical roots of the symbol when it was put up in the 1930's as a symbol of defiance of change. it has not become any more appropriate with the passage of time. It hurts South Carolina and the Nation.
It was a usurpation of the historical roots of the symbol when it was put up in the 1930's as a symbol of defiance of change. it has not become any more appropriate with the passage of time. It hurts South Carolina and the Nation.
3
The GOPTP has prospered with the wink wink nod nod of contemporary culturally ingrained racism, in the hope of latching on to those that hate but also catch the vote of those that agree but don't want to publically linked with the hate they carefully craft messages and actions but always with that wink wink nod nod. That new and improved southern strategy is done. The current beauty pagent of the current contstants PR people are working overtime. The spectacle of the flag of horrific pain hanging full mast over the Reverend's body lying in state is horrific. Should his casket be draped in the flag of the United States of America, the optics will be searing. So what if Haley gave it some ineffectual window dressing, she is setting her sights on national office as she can not run again for govenor, another ineffectuall wink wink nod nod. unless she goes out there and does it herself.
11
Haley immediately leapfrogs to the top of the VP list,
ahead of the former CEO of HP.
ahead of the former CEO of HP.
It's what the Confederate flag represents that is so repugnant. Why did this state allow it to become so important again? Politics. Now the divisive effects of what it symbolizes has come home to roost in the loss of these lives at Ames( and many other atrocities I'm sure we've heard little about,) because of the greedy and power mongering goals of politicians. Who did the polititicans work for? Not the American people. Follow the money. When I read American Dynasty by Kevin Phillips and his other book American Theocracy, many things were explained about these rascist movements and what fanned their growth.
11
Yes, the flag is a part of southern heritage, but should not be a proud part. The south clings to the idea that "the War Between the States," as they call the Civil War, was mainly about 'states' rights.' Yes, it was - it was about the right of states to allow their citizens to own other human beings as property.
The suggestion that the war was not about slavery, but rather a grand rally for local freedom is laughable. It is time for the south to be honest about its history. It is also time for the north to admit the presence of slavery in its states for the period that that was true, i.e., it was never the 'good' north and the 'bad' south.
While we are at it, it's time to stop pretending that racism exists only in the fringe of society or among the mentally ill. Time and again when blatantly racist violence happens 'good' white folks blame the mentally ill and/or the prevalence of guns in our society. While each of those are a factor, if we do not begin to speak about and address racial bigotry and disparity in our wider society, nothing will really change.
The suggestion that the war was not about slavery, but rather a grand rally for local freedom is laughable. It is time for the south to be honest about its history. It is also time for the north to admit the presence of slavery in its states for the period that that was true, i.e., it was never the 'good' north and the 'bad' south.
While we are at it, it's time to stop pretending that racism exists only in the fringe of society or among the mentally ill. Time and again when blatantly racist violence happens 'good' white folks blame the mentally ill and/or the prevalence of guns in our society. While each of those are a factor, if we do not begin to speak about and address racial bigotry and disparity in our wider society, nothing will really change.
49
The only thing more disgraceful than the presence of this symbol of racism, treason, and oppression is the manner in which Republican politicians are trying to negotiate between following the obvious moral imperative without disappointing the racist voters whose support they have actively sought for the last 60 years.
103
Without those racist votes the republican party would be a footnote.
The history of the various flags of the Confederacy is complicated. Several designs were proposed and used at various times, and there was much dispute over what the flag of the newly formed country should and should not symbolize. The Wikipedia article “Flags of the Confederate States of America” relates this story in fascinating detail with illustrations. One curious instance I learned from it concerning post-Civil War use of the now infamous Saltire or battle flag (not to be confused with the original Stars and Bars) is the following:
“During World War II some U.S. military units with Southern nicknames, or made up largely of Southerners, made the flag their unofficial emblem. The USS Columbia flew a Confederate Navy Ensign as a battle flag throughout combat in the South Pacific in World War II. This was done in honor of Columbia, the ship's namesake and the capital city of South Carolina, the first state to secede from the Union. Some soldiers carried Confederate flags into battle. After the Battle of Okinawa a Confederate flag was raised over Shuri Castle by a Marine from the self-styled "Rebel Company" (Company A of the 1st Battalion, 5th Marines). It was visible for miles and was taken down after three days on the orders of General Simon B. Buckner, Jr. (son of Confederate general Simon Buckner, Sr.), who stated that it was inappropriate as ‘Americans from all over are involved in this battle’.”
“During World War II some U.S. military units with Southern nicknames, or made up largely of Southerners, made the flag their unofficial emblem. The USS Columbia flew a Confederate Navy Ensign as a battle flag throughout combat in the South Pacific in World War II. This was done in honor of Columbia, the ship's namesake and the capital city of South Carolina, the first state to secede from the Union. Some soldiers carried Confederate flags into battle. After the Battle of Okinawa a Confederate flag was raised over Shuri Castle by a Marine from the self-styled "Rebel Company" (Company A of the 1st Battalion, 5th Marines). It was visible for miles and was taken down after three days on the orders of General Simon B. Buckner, Jr. (son of Confederate general Simon Buckner, Sr.), who stated that it was inappropriate as ‘Americans from all over are involved in this battle’.”
9
'Americans from all over are involved in this battle’ - great quote and so appropriate for all racist 'battles' ever since.
Taking down the Confederate flag is a symbol of how easily people can be appeased.
4
No, but it is a start when people acknowledge the power of a negative, divisive, and hurtful symbol. Symbols have power. Although I am pleased to see this symbol of slavery, secession, and segregation taken down, I will not cease in my support for efforts to reduce racism in our country.
12
That rag of treason , hate, and division needs to go
Who says we're appeased?
1
The issue of the Civil War was slavery--more specifically, its extension into new parts of the Union. The Confederate flag's stars represent the eleven States that seceded for that reason (claiming two that didn't)--that is, in order to preserve chattel slavery of abducted human beings, made the efficient engine of several economies by brutally violent control.
10
Tomes have been written by great historians discussing the causes of the Civil War. You purport to explain the matter in less than 10 words. I suggest that you read one of the fine expert accounts on the subject.
I wrote 'issue', not 'cause'. Regarding causes, 18 words by the Confederate Vice President, citing the Confederate Constitution: "African slavery as it exists among us...was the immediate cause of the late rupture and present revolution."
Whoever takes "PRIDE" in anti-union, anti- federalism, anti-america terrorism and belligerence including seccession and an unprovoked attack (on a Army Fort) that ultimately responsible for the 1M dealths that followed, should be viewed as more dangerous than ISIS and should be detained in Gitmo.
40
It takes two to tango. The notion that the South was 100% responsible for the war and that the North was entirely blameless is rejected in virtually every scholarly account discussing the causes of the war.
1
Let's take down the flag of Confederate reaction and racism, and remember that the next inevitable conflict facing the USA is not between the races. It's between the 99% and the 1% who keep us all down, at each others' throats, and who thrive secretly or openly on the racist atavistic divisions between the scrapping poor. By fighting each other instead of making common cause together, we signal to the plutocrats that they have won.
76
The 1% will need an army. Who do you think they'll recruit?
"Hence, the Confederate battle flag was displayed in the South Carolina State House in 1938, after angry Southerners in Congress managed to defeat a bill that would have made lynching a federal crime. They saw that law as an intrusion on what was often called “the Southern way of life.”
So criminalizing lynching is an attack on the southern way of life? Just parsing that thought makes me nauseous. When folks like Graham and others keep defending their "historic traditions" they aren't just talking about a relaxed, sedate system of plantations where everyone knew their "place." A romantic view of history as depicted in "Gone with the Wind."
No, this romantic view of history is belied by a history of ongoing resistance to cultural, social, racial, and economic currents in a vain attempt to ensure everyone still "knew their place." Even if that included the lynching of black men by hooded (or hoodless) white men.
How much better would race relations be if the south had simply moved on following the end of the Civil War! Accepted the mainstream order and began a process of healing from the ugliness of that war that nearly tore this nation asunder for good. But no: resistance, whether silent or shouting, dominated this desire to protect a past that died with military defeat.
Honor the dead, yes. Honor the past but put it in perspective, yes, But don't keep waving a flag that offends more today than it did during the Civil War.
So criminalizing lynching is an attack on the southern way of life? Just parsing that thought makes me nauseous. When folks like Graham and others keep defending their "historic traditions" they aren't just talking about a relaxed, sedate system of plantations where everyone knew their "place." A romantic view of history as depicted in "Gone with the Wind."
No, this romantic view of history is belied by a history of ongoing resistance to cultural, social, racial, and economic currents in a vain attempt to ensure everyone still "knew their place." Even if that included the lynching of black men by hooded (or hoodless) white men.
How much better would race relations be if the south had simply moved on following the end of the Civil War! Accepted the mainstream order and began a process of healing from the ugliness of that war that nearly tore this nation asunder for good. But no: resistance, whether silent or shouting, dominated this desire to protect a past that died with military defeat.
Honor the dead, yes. Honor the past but put it in perspective, yes, But don't keep waving a flag that offends more today than it did during the Civil War.
60
I wish I could recommend Christine's comment 100 times.
Or more.
Or more.
2
Symbols can instil terror,long lasting terror.
The Nazi Swastika is remembered with spine chilling fear after 7 decades of the fall of Nazi Government.
In Germany,books on Nazis,Nazi Symbols,Flags,Literature & even Mein Kampf is banned.
The United States needs to take an holistic view to immediately rid the state of South Carolina from all the vestiges of its hate & bitterness filled symbols of the yore,beginning with the FLAG.
A confederate flag that symbolises hate,terror,divisiveness & memories of an
war fought for a totally wrong cause.
The Nazi Swastika is remembered with spine chilling fear after 7 decades of the fall of Nazi Government.
In Germany,books on Nazis,Nazi Symbols,Flags,Literature & even Mein Kampf is banned.
The United States needs to take an holistic view to immediately rid the state of South Carolina from all the vestiges of its hate & bitterness filled symbols of the yore,beginning with the FLAG.
A confederate flag that symbolises hate,terror,divisiveness & memories of an
war fought for a totally wrong cause.
39
Graham, who initially came out in support of maintaining the flag, and Walker, who dodged the question, showed how little integrity they have quite clearly.
52
Integrity is the total opposite of Walker.
30
Actually, integrity is lacking in the entire Republican brand these days.
2
Walker is a man of no integrity
1
The Confederate flag embodies the ideology of racism that enabled slavery and fostered the civil war, segregation and oppression. It is an American version of the Nazi swastika and should be treated as such.
31
Slavery and the "Final Solution" were both horrendous. But they clearly were different. To equate the two is to gloss over distinctions in levels of evil and is intellectually lazy.
Perhaps it would be easier to remove this banner if we called it what it is: The Traitor's Flag.
48
The flag of shame must come down.
Along with taking down the flag, the righteous goals that flag flew against must be taken up anew. In particular the right to vote must be improved, expanded, made easier, so that all citizens are able to comfortably exercise this, our most precious right, which undergirds all others.
Not only that, the murder of nine praying black individuals by a white racist terrorist, must not have occurred in vain. Lives were taken from us. Votes were stolen from among us! Those lives must not have been taken in vain. And those votes must be, if not restored, at least remembered.
So, as a memorial to these nine black martyrs, we should initiate a massive initiative on behalf of voting reform. We need national voting holidays, early voting, accessible polling places, verifiable voting methods.
Additionally, each of us could make a promise to ourselves: To seek out nine individuals, who might need some urging or reminding ot transportation to go the polls - in memory of the nine votes stolen, when nine were murdered.
If we take down the flag of shame and take up the cause of voting reform, we will have made a good start. What better epitaph for these murders!
Along with taking down the flag, the righteous goals that flag flew against must be taken up anew. In particular the right to vote must be improved, expanded, made easier, so that all citizens are able to comfortably exercise this, our most precious right, which undergirds all others.
Not only that, the murder of nine praying black individuals by a white racist terrorist, must not have occurred in vain. Lives were taken from us. Votes were stolen from among us! Those lives must not have been taken in vain. And those votes must be, if not restored, at least remembered.
So, as a memorial to these nine black martyrs, we should initiate a massive initiative on behalf of voting reform. We need national voting holidays, early voting, accessible polling places, verifiable voting methods.
Additionally, each of us could make a promise to ourselves: To seek out nine individuals, who might need some urging or reminding ot transportation to go the polls - in memory of the nine votes stolen, when nine were murdered.
If we take down the flag of shame and take up the cause of voting reform, we will have made a good start. What better epitaph for these murders!
29
"Lives were taken from us. Votes were stolen from among us! Those lives must not have been taken in vain. And those votes must be, if not restored, at least remembered."
If this isn't a parody, it's a fascinating affirmation of my suspicion that to liberals, Black Lives Matter... as long as they translate to correct votes.
If this isn't a parody, it's a fascinating affirmation of my suspicion that to liberals, Black Lives Matter... as long as they translate to correct votes.
Thats a beautiful idea, @TheraP -- i will pass this on to others
1
Bless you, K. Love! And blessings upon all those who do the same!
The Confederate Flag, like the Nazi Flag, is a powerful symbol of hate. Taking away the symbol does not take away the hate. In fact, without the symbol of hate there to remind us it is often too easy to forget that the hate itself is still there and runs deep.
For more then a generation, the Republican Party and every one of its Presidential candidates has happily pandered to the hate that runs deep through the Civil War south. Even today's crop of candidates has been slow and waffling in the cry that has come out of the massacre, fearful it would alienate their base.
Forgive me if I find removing the symbol of hate does nothing to actually remove the hate. Forgive me if I find the current response out of the rightwing way too little and way to late.
For more then a generation, the Republican Party and every one of its Presidential candidates has happily pandered to the hate that runs deep through the Civil War south. Even today's crop of candidates has been slow and waffling in the cry that has come out of the massacre, fearful it would alienate their base.
Forgive me if I find removing the symbol of hate does nothing to actually remove the hate. Forgive me if I find the current response out of the rightwing way too little and way to late.
27
And the world is always bombarded with the 'exceptional'; democracy; land of freedom mantra from American elites; while deep down this is a brutal racist country. Period.
39
The United States has a murder rate of 5 per 100,000, which is unacceptably high. Nigeria has a murder rate of 20 per 100,000. Which country is more brutal? Which country has a functioning criminal justice system, where murderers are arrested and prosecuted, and which country has a totally dysfunctional government that allows murderers to go unpunished? The answer; Nigeria. Period
http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/VC.IHR.PSRC.P5
http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/VC.IHR.PSRC.P5
5
Are you proud of the distinction? We're better than Nigeria?
1
Nine killed and one wounded in a church is a too high price to pay for ending stubborn racism cloaked in fake "tradition." But the price having been paid, it is time to collect removal of the flag of slavery from official public spaces. Whether fake Republicans defending it are happy about this or not. At historical sites and in musuems, I'd say let it stay.
9
In a box, with other artifacts.
At last there's an editorial I can agree with. 150 years after the end of the Civil War it's time the South acknowledged defeat by removing the most visible of its rebellion--the Stars and Bars battle flag. Radio talk show host Curtis Sliwa is absolutely right when he calls the Confederate flag "The Flag of Treason". That's just what that flag represented--the South was committing high treason against the United States. What's worse is that the Civil War began in South Carolina, a state that didn't want to be part of the United States in the first place. Well, maybe South Carolina finally realized that calling itself a separate country and considered slavery a "peculiar institution" yielded nothing but disaster in the end. Welcome to 21st Century America, South Carolina.
16
How about the segregated war memorials in the South? Is there anything more offensive to the whole idea of what is claimed for being American than putting people of different ethnicities on different plaques on a memorial, with the explicit purpose of diminishing the sacrifice of African Americans as somehow being less important than their white comrades-in-arms-but-not-in-equality?
How do you even get to the state of denial where you refuse to accept how outright evil it is to suggest that the memorabilia of the Confederacy are somehow redolent of freedom? In the same way as suggesting the swastika was no more than a symbol of German national pride, I suppose...
How do you even get to the state of denial where you refuse to accept how outright evil it is to suggest that the memorabilia of the Confederacy are somehow redolent of freedom? In the same way as suggesting the swastika was no more than a symbol of German national pride, I suppose...
17
I am a Yankee who once lived in Mississippi, and it is even worse than that. I traveled all through that state, and saw dozens and dozens of War Memorials, yet NEVER SAW ONE TO ANY WAR BUT "THE WAR OF NORTHERN AGGRESSION". I kid you not. So many residents of that state have fought and even died in all of our nation's wars, but Mississippi could care less. And there are no memorials, museums, Nothing re: the fact that slavery ever existed there. It's true what Faulkner said about the past; but what's really true is that in many areas of the South the people honor only the past that They wish to see. I am currently writing a memoir of my experiences there, and you can see why it's needed.
1
After the defeat of a regime that professed odious ideas in 1945, America and its allies attempted a de-Nazification of the defeated foe. It seems, despite some nasty hypocrisies, that America was more successful in this endeavor than in doing its own laundry vis a vis it original sin of slavery in the land of “all men are created equal”.
It has been said that, with the unravelling of Reconstruction and the ascendance of Jim Crow, that the defeated South actually won the peace in the wake of the Civil War. This narrative however was unraveled by the Civil Rights Movement, and the resentment over that has been the meat and potatoes of Conservative politics ever since.
Acts of terrorism, which seem immensely valid to those carrying them out, may well prove counter-productive. Southern Governors, for the first time in history are now calling for the reigning in of that righteous symbol of treason and hatred, yes, America's equivalent of the swastika banner.
Its sunset is long overdue.
It has been said that, with the unravelling of Reconstruction and the ascendance of Jim Crow, that the defeated South actually won the peace in the wake of the Civil War. This narrative however was unraveled by the Civil Rights Movement, and the resentment over that has been the meat and potatoes of Conservative politics ever since.
Acts of terrorism, which seem immensely valid to those carrying them out, may well prove counter-productive. Southern Governors, for the first time in history are now calling for the reigning in of that righteous symbol of treason and hatred, yes, America's equivalent of the swastika banner.
Its sunset is long overdue.
21
I think the truth shines in these comments. Many in the south never acknowledged the end of The Civil War. They continued the fight not on the battlefields but at every level of government in the form of Jim Crow. And the re-emergence of the public display of the bars and stars was actually a sign that they were finally winning the war.
1
It's the flag of slavery. Full stop. As offensive as a swastika flag.
15
Senator Lindsey Graham, speaking of history, said that the Confederate flag is part of who we [southerners) are. Similarly then, the Nazi flag, the Swastika, is a part of who Germans are. Can you image Hitler's flag flying from government buildings in Germany today? It is just as absurd to have the Confederate battle flag flying from the South Carolina capital today. The flag isn't, as many defenders claim, about southern pride. It was not hoisted over the South Carolina capitol until 1962, a defiant gesture against the civil right movement, signifying a last stand for segregation. As an American president said in another context, tear down this racist flag!
41
Yes, that right. Would someone Please - walk out there & take it Down & throw it Away ! No More Debate. No "Legislating". No More Talk. No More Hot Air.
Walk out to the Flagpole (or whatever it is) & Take it Down.
Walk out to the Flagpole (or whatever it is) & Take it Down.
1
Why stop with only the Confederate Flag of one state? Let's move forward and eliminate all of these racist symbols sanctioned by the government that perpetuate this ecosystem of hate and division. Specifically, nine other states (Alabama, Georgia, Louisiana, Maryland, Mississippi, South Carolina, Tennessee and Virginia) offer license plates for "Sons of Confederate Veterans." First, the actual sons have been dead for quiet a long time, and secondly it is a racist symbol of an army that tried to defeat our country in combat.
It is bad enough that South Carolinians drive down streets named for Confederate generals that fought to keep African Americans enslaved, but our troops drive onto ten US Army bases named after Confederate generals. Totally immoral. Let's lobby our political leaders to replace the names of these ten bases with the impressive American men and women who have served with distinction. A nice sign in a museum with all the former names of these bases would be enough homage to their vanquished past.
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/05/26/opinion/sunday/misplaced-honor.htmlthis racist symbol
If not, let's compromise and rename the bases after our other vanquished enemies: Admiral Yamamoto, Field Marshall Rommel, Adolph Hitler, or Osama Bin Laden for starters. Exactly, these names are equally as ridiculous as the current names on those ten army bases.
It is bad enough that South Carolinians drive down streets named for Confederate generals that fought to keep African Americans enslaved, but our troops drive onto ten US Army bases named after Confederate generals. Totally immoral. Let's lobby our political leaders to replace the names of these ten bases with the impressive American men and women who have served with distinction. A nice sign in a museum with all the former names of these bases would be enough homage to their vanquished past.
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/05/26/opinion/sunday/misplaced-honor.htmlthis racist symbol
If not, let's compromise and rename the bases after our other vanquished enemies: Admiral Yamamoto, Field Marshall Rommel, Adolph Hitler, or Osama Bin Laden for starters. Exactly, these names are equally as ridiculous as the current names on those ten army bases.
26
The South lost the Civil War. Their flag has no place in any civic arena. It should never have been flown in any state for any reason. Germans don't decorate their WW II cemeteries with Nazi flags to honor their war dead. Neither should Confederate Cemetaries be decorated with the flag of the side that lost th war.
17
To the commentors who say there was "only five years of slavery
under the Stars and Bars" - to you I say - one second of slavery is way too much.
We don't need to be reminded of the oppression that has been caused because of melanin. And we certainly don't need to honor it.
under the Stars and Bars" - to you I say - one second of slavery is way too much.
We don't need to be reminded of the oppression that has been caused because of melanin. And we certainly don't need to honor it.
9
Well, slavery prospered and grew for 85 years under the US flag. The Confederate flag wasn't created until 1860. Maybe we should keep both --one to remind us that slavery existed and the other to remind us of the hypocrisy that sustains racism in the North even today.
The only thing that needs to be done once the flag of slavery, treason and terrorism is taken down is to create programs to prevent the racists from continuing to spread it. Perhaps a huge PR campaign similar to the one that was used against tobacco.
Also, swift and sure punishment whenever a school or teacher is discovered undermining such programs. Along with education, there need to be financial incentives to prevent neighborhoods from gentrifying: significant affordable housing programs that keep threatened areas from pushing out the original residents and maintaining a balance of mixed income people. This would also keep folks living with different classes and races. It is the enforced separation that keeps folks from living together and discovering that folks are basically the same--all wanting good things for themselves, their families and their neighbors.
Also, swift and sure punishment whenever a school or teacher is discovered undermining such programs. Along with education, there need to be financial incentives to prevent neighborhoods from gentrifying: significant affordable housing programs that keep threatened areas from pushing out the original residents and maintaining a balance of mixed income people. This would also keep folks living with different classes and races. It is the enforced separation that keeps folks from living together and discovering that folks are basically the same--all wanting good things for themselves, their families and their neighbors.
6
The flag will certainly come down.
What is next on the agenda?
What is next on the agenda?
4
Yada! Yada! Yada! And now a reality check, from a credentialed person, an American who teaches US History! Do you really think most Americans, especially those under the age of fifty six actually know what a Confederate flag looks like, let alone can reflect on its' meaning?! Please don't delude yourselves! All this hoopla is centered upon the few culturally literate left! Most folks are more concerned about making a living, and where their money is coming from! Quick anecdote: In my previous life I worked on the original offering of Rebok Stock! Sneaker had a Union Jack on the outside! Said to myself, this won't fly because with so many Americans of Irish extraction, sales won't happen because the Greens hate the British! A more learned person pointed out, do you think most folks even know that it is the flag of especially those hated English! Sales flew, especially among those American lassies of Irish extraction!...Look, I don't especially like that Rebel flag either, but if you really want to improve human understanding and love in this nation, teach about brotherhood, teach about the goodness of human kindness, teach that we are all human, teach about integrity and hard work, teach that we are all essentially the same, and stop focusing on the other, if we really won't to move forward! And let us teach US History without trivializing the field! And let us teach our children well.
5
Fair enough, but there are times when things burst into national çonsciousness and this is one of those times. That the average person didn't reflect in its meaning prior to this doesn't seem relevant to me.
7
Polls show that most Americans do not care about the confederate flag. It is primarily African-Americans and liberals who have an issue with it. From the comments, it's easy to see that liberals simply use the issue as an excuse to go after their favorite foes.
African-Americans, on the other hand, have a legitimate complaint. It's good to see their concerns being addressed in South Carolina.
African-Americans, on the other hand, have a legitimate complaint. It's good to see their concerns being addressed in South Carolina.
Your comments do not apply at all to the residents of the South. I know, as I used to live there. Believe me, they Know what it means.
1
I think that the South Carolina legislators have a right to display the Confederate Flag in their Capital. I think that Confederate flag did not cause the homegrown terrorist who bombed the Church in South Carolina to commit this hate crime. As long as the South Carolina legislators display the United States flag next to the Confederate flag, I don't see a problem with displaying it. The debate over the flag obscures urgent issues like the growth of hate groups in the United States and police violence against African American men.
3
We need to both deal with the growth of hate groups AND get rid of this flag. They are part and parcel of the same thing. Germany got rid of the Swastika And dealt with their hate groups as well, and so can we.
1
Do you really think the old Confederate battle flag should be flown next to the flag of the United States of America? Really? Do you think the battle flag flown by Southern states in their fight to retain human beings as slave labor should be honored on public buildings in the South? My family came from Ireland in 1852; they fled the potato famine and other British imposed atrocities. They eventually left Boston, sailed around the Horn and settled in San Francisco. Slavery was never in their past, and they would not have defended it. If you don't see a problem with flying the old Confederate battle flag on public buildings, perhaps you might want to suggest flying it from the Ferry Building. If you are a true San Franciscan, you don't support a symbol of slavery, oppression, Jim Crow and denial of the right to vote. You don't defend an artifact which symbolizes all of the above.
The display of the Confederate flag is a free speech issue. Our Constitution protects the right to political speech, except if it incites violence. The concept which underlies our Constitution's protection of the expression of dissent is that if there is a "marketplace of ideas" then the public will have access to all points of view and can decide which ideas to accept or reject.
'The display of the Confederate flag did not cause the hate crime in South Carolina, though it symbolizes support for slavery. People should focus on identifying hate groups and the social conditions which make people inclined to join hate groups, rather than focus on eliminating symbols like the Confederate flag.
'The display of the Confederate flag did not cause the hate crime in South Carolina, though it symbolizes support for slavery. People should focus on identifying hate groups and the social conditions which make people inclined to join hate groups, rather than focus on eliminating symbols like the Confederate flag.
I fully support the efforts of the Governor and others to remove the Confederate flag from the Capitol. It is a divisive and inappropriate symbol which has always been associated with slavery, hatred and injustice and which needs to go. It symbol as a remembrance to fallen Confederate soldiers has long been superseded by its adoption by the extreme right and misplaced those hiding behind the mirage of "Southern Pride."
Nevertheless, the problem in South Carolina last week and in much of the debate revolves around guns and the ability of an individual to turn a hateful idea into a violent tragedy. He cannot hide behind a flag and neither should anyone else. Let's abolish the guns along with the Confederate flags.
Nevertheless, the problem in South Carolina last week and in much of the debate revolves around guns and the ability of an individual to turn a hateful idea into a violent tragedy. He cannot hide behind a flag and neither should anyone else. Let's abolish the guns along with the Confederate flags.
7
The flag is but a symbol, and it's removal from state grounds means little unless underlying attitudes change.
Southern history doesn't encourage optimism.
Southern history doesn't encourage optimism.
2
Senator Graham's about face on the flag issue shows what a dishonest guy he really is. Only after a public opinion outcry and the govenor's statement did he flip. Unfortunately, the governor bailed out the Republican contenders from expressing their true feelings to their base.
8
More deflection. That flag is indeed repulsive. However, this guy could never have killed 9 people without a gun. First grade teachers threw themselves in front of children trying to protect them in Newtown, CT. Do you really think they wouldn't tackle and secure that 90lb lunatic until police arrived? In every case, it's guns that are the factor of how much carnage.
And this isn't about taking guns away from people who like to target shoot or use it to fend off bobcats. It's about background checks. It's also about buying guns in bulk and sold illegally. It's clearly not the case here or in Newtown. Neither was illegal. Newtown was simply horrific parenting of a very sick individual that ruined several lives. I'm not sure this is the case here as well. But this is exactly why background checks are crucial. These people would be alive if it was necessary to wait until a felony charge was adjudicated.
The flag is just more nonsense to throw our attention away from weapons that are glamorized everywhere in tv movies and the news. they are easily available. And they don't require a second thought because killing someone with a gun takes seconds. It's a fleeting thought. And we keep turning a cowardly eye to the NRA
And this isn't about taking guns away from people who like to target shoot or use it to fend off bobcats. It's about background checks. It's also about buying guns in bulk and sold illegally. It's clearly not the case here or in Newtown. Neither was illegal. Newtown was simply horrific parenting of a very sick individual that ruined several lives. I'm not sure this is the case here as well. But this is exactly why background checks are crucial. These people would be alive if it was necessary to wait until a felony charge was adjudicated.
The flag is just more nonsense to throw our attention away from weapons that are glamorized everywhere in tv movies and the news. they are easily available. And they don't require a second thought because killing someone with a gun takes seconds. It's a fleeting thought. And we keep turning a cowardly eye to the NRA
10
I dont see background checks being meaningful in any significant way as dar as preventing guns from "getting into the wrong hands", and this is a liberal spealing-- honestly i get so angered at the gun control conversations bc its such a scary thought to even go down that road of, who/what "makes" the criteria for those so called "wrong hands " anyway, and who gets to choose, and are exceptions ever made, and isnt it really just appeasing fear and not actually following any statistical mode of logic when it comes to banning certain populations of America, human beings whose second ammendment rights are taken away-- not for good reason, but to make you "feel better"? Yes our gun culture is ridiculous and out of control but just like i support 1st ammendment speech that i may find disgusting and offensive to my sensibilities i would never want someone moderating my first ammendment rights just to appease a certain portion of the US population.
Just as the Berlin Wall was a symbol of communist oppression, the Confederate flag is a symbol of racial loathing and oppression, contrary to what this country stands for. Southerners, take down that flag!
9
Perhaps burning the Confederate flag should become a 4th of July tradition in communities all across the nation.
4
The bigotry expressed against Southern Whites in numerous Times articles and by many of those who have written comments is not an appropriate response to the tragic massacre in Charleston. Bigotry begets bigotry. The 2012 massacre in Newtown, CN was also tragic, but correctly there was no outpouring of prejudice against New Englanders. The South fought two wars of independence: won one and lost one. The issues in both wars of independence involved self-determination and even slavery--the British freed slaves of those who supported rebellion much as Lincoln did. During the Revolution slavery was not just an institution of just the South--it was an especially important in New York. How can one honor the Revolution and express such venom against the present South because of a second effort for independence 150 years ago? The Confederate flag is a symbol of the Southern effort to be independent. Some may take it to be a symbol of slavery and segregation. But, slavery continued far longer under the American flag and continued for months after the Confederacy fell. The slave ships from Boston flew the American flag--not the Confederate. The segregated American army in World War II flew the American flag--not the Confederate. The perpetrators of both the Newtown and the Charleston massacres were crazy young men. We need to discuss how to stop such massacres and not try to inflame bigotry.
2
The Confederate battle flag is a symbol of sedition and treason. So. Carolina was the first Southern state to secede from the Union. Slave ships carried slaves to the Caribbean and offloaded black people who were then sold on open markets; they were paraded for plantation owners to examine and purchase. Slavery provided cheap labor for plantation owners, primarily cotton plantations. The Civil War was fought for economic reasons, one of which was the use of slave labor in the South. The industrial North did not use slave labor; abolitionists in the North demanded an end to slavery. The South lost the Civil War and the right to buy and sell human beings. The Emancipation Proclamation prevented the practice of slavery from spreading beyond the South. It is way past time for the Confederate battle flag to be retired from all public buildings in the South. Individuals can fly the flag from the rooftops of their homes. Confederate battle flags can be stuck on the bumpers of cars and pick up trucks. What cannot be tolerated is the old battle flag flying on or near public buildings. Black Americans live and work in So. Carolina, and they have a right to be free of this insulting artifact. If Lindsey Graham believes that old battle flag is "who we are" in the South, he ought to retire from the United States Senate. Slavery is a "heritage" to be ashamed of, and Lindsey Graham ought to be ashamed of it.
As long as we are removing Flags/Symbols:
Any American Flags that flew before the 13th/14th/15th Amendments...
well wait - before the Civil Rights laws of the 1960's.
Any State flags that flew and still fly from when a State allowed
Slavery or Indentured Servitude.
Washington, Jefferson, Hamilton, Jackson and Lincoln since they were
Presidents when we were a slave holding nation must come off the currency
and their names off of States, Federal Districts, Cities and Counties.
Yes, offensive symbols need not be Public Symbols.
To equate the flying of the "Stars and Bars" to bringing Mr. Roof to
wantonly kill when it is clear as day that Mr. Roof is mentally disturbed -
does nothing to address the sad fact that more African Americans were
killed by fellow African Americans this past weekend then by that very
lost soul and yet there is so little outcry in the New York Times
and its Editorial board about such mindless violence.
Any American Flags that flew before the 13th/14th/15th Amendments...
well wait - before the Civil Rights laws of the 1960's.
Any State flags that flew and still fly from when a State allowed
Slavery or Indentured Servitude.
Washington, Jefferson, Hamilton, Jackson and Lincoln since they were
Presidents when we were a slave holding nation must come off the currency
and their names off of States, Federal Districts, Cities and Counties.
Yes, offensive symbols need not be Public Symbols.
To equate the flying of the "Stars and Bars" to bringing Mr. Roof to
wantonly kill when it is clear as day that Mr. Roof is mentally disturbed -
does nothing to address the sad fact that more African Americans were
killed by fellow African Americans this past weekend then by that very
lost soul and yet there is so little outcry in the New York Times
and its Editorial board about such mindless violence.
3
It is not just the treasonous flag. Segregation was defended from southern pulpits. Southern culture is steeped In racism and science hating evangelicalism. I don't know how one reasons with the irrational.
8
Removing the flag ends official recognition of a prominent symbol widely seen throughout South Carolina. If it has any effect on private use, it will probably increase it as the flag is largely a symbol of defiance. Surely there will be protests by the lunatic fringe who worship the flag. And these protests are likely to be directed at Southern blacks. Will there be any violence, any South Carolina lynchings this week? Surely, it is more likely than it was before. Nobody has talked about the danger of agitating racists. Nobody has taken preventive steps. Prominent black South Carolinans are not being protected. Nobody has thought this thing through.
1
Yes it has been thought through and that is what real courage is. Read up on Birmingham and Selma and Missippi and Freedom Riders. We who we alive at the time and were witnesses to it know (newly minted nightly news showed America the horror show that is the South). THe incredibly brave who fought the hate standing against it now exactly what institutional racism can and will do from the police, to the Sheriff to the statehouse. But it has to be done. Fox will not cover it but every else will.
1
Thought this thing through? Under your way of thinking, our country should never have fought to free slaves as there "could have been repercussions" for Blacks. Along these same lines, we never should have passed the Civil Rights Act, integrated public schools, or had an Equal rights Act. Progress and Freedom for All means we have to act.
This "thing" was thought through many years ago; men marched South from Vermont, Maine, Massachusetts, Connecticut and died in the Civil War because they had thought through the "thing" known as slavery and wanted to end it. Slavery was the "thing" which produced markets where black men and women and children were paraded for sale to plantation owners; once bought they were then slaves to be used in the fields and in large plantation homes. The sharecroppers and tenant farmers who were the foot soldiers for plantation owners in the Civil War never owned slaves; they were tools, used to defend a practice which gave them a group they could look down on. At least there were human beings who were "less" than they were. Disgusting.
I fully agree that the Confederate flag, as a symbol of hatred to many, must be taken down (as well as removed from the state flag of Mississippi).
I also recognize that to many descendants of Confederate soldiers that flag may symbolize something else entirely: A solemn reminder of the Civil War and the great sacrifices that their ancestors made, many times giving their lives.
The fact that right thinking people don't respect what the Confederacy stood for doesn't change this fact. To me, a Confederate flag in a frame on a wall, to convey that it is a relic of an earlier time, would not have the same connotations it does when flying on a flagpole.
I also recognize that this compromise will still offend many people, but I think denying many people what they consider to be the symbol of their ancestors' sacrifices is probably not a good thing, either.
I also recognize that to many descendants of Confederate soldiers that flag may symbolize something else entirely: A solemn reminder of the Civil War and the great sacrifices that their ancestors made, many times giving their lives.
The fact that right thinking people don't respect what the Confederacy stood for doesn't change this fact. To me, a Confederate flag in a frame on a wall, to convey that it is a relic of an earlier time, would not have the same connotations it does when flying on a flagpole.
I also recognize that this compromise will still offend many people, but I think denying many people what they consider to be the symbol of their ancestors' sacrifices is probably not a good thing, either.
5
Of course the flag should come down, it should have never have been allowed to fly. You lose a rebellion, that should tend to be a foregone conclusion. Having said that, I find it ludicrous that the stated reason for removing said flag is because a sick loner perpetrated a hideous act. As if there is any reason to believe he wouldn't have found a thousand other reasons to kill. Spare me the convenient moral outrage over a flag, and spend that energy on mental health strategies.
3
Forget the confederate flag.
The US flag can symbolize freedom, heroism, democracy, etc; or it can symbolize crimes against humanity. It depends on want you want to see, as both perspectives are historically valid.
So, please, let's stop with this holier-than-thou attitude as we criticize Southern whites who like their confederate flag. They mostly see it as representing some mythological rebel thing representing who they are, in a good way. And there is nothing wrong with that.
Finally, it is the white hating blacks and black hating whites who want the confederate flag in 2015 to represent white supremacy. They both want a symbol of that. It looks they'll get what they want.
The US flag can symbolize freedom, heroism, democracy, etc; or it can symbolize crimes against humanity. It depends on want you want to see, as both perspectives are historically valid.
So, please, let's stop with this holier-than-thou attitude as we criticize Southern whites who like their confederate flag. They mostly see it as representing some mythological rebel thing representing who they are, in a good way. And there is nothing wrong with that.
Finally, it is the white hating blacks and black hating whites who want the confederate flag in 2015 to represent white supremacy. They both want a symbol of that. It looks they'll get what they want.
3
Walmart has announced that it will stop selling merchandise promoting the Confederate Flag. Amazon.com needs to do the same. Amazon's own Offensive Products policy prohibits the sale of items that "promote or glorify hatred, violence, racial, sexual or religious intolerance or promote organizations with such views." Nevertheless, they offer for sale over 3,000 products featuring the Confederate Flag, everything from bikinis to tee shirts to laptop cases. These products clearly fall under their own definition of offensive and they need to stop selling them now.
5
The Confederates used the draft also, and poor whites wouldn't have supported slavery. First, slaves work for less, taking away good jobs. Second, as everyone knows, slaves in Ancient Rome were white owned by white, so it is doubtful slavery was popular in the Confederacy except among some of the rich. In my opinion "Southern pride" is sinister. If they don't take down the Confederate flag, that shows how serious they are about shutting down the government.
2
I think in the Army of Northern Virginia 85% of the soldier's immediate families owned slaves. It is misconception is that poor whites made up the bulk of the Confederates soldiers. Most were the young sons of prosperous large southern families, at least in Lee's army.
Nope, having slaves was aspirational. and besides the slave made the poor white feel so much more superior - at least there was someone worse than them.
1
Frankly, all these "Johnnie Come Lately" South Carolina and national republicans took their time coming around to realizing the political peril that they were in. It's called "self-interest" and culpability for having helped sustain racism in South Carolina in the first place.
Sorry to tell you, GOP, but you've just lost the 2016 election
Sorry to tell you, GOP, but you've just lost the 2016 election
10
Why is it so hard to believe that many southerners really do wish they had won the Civil War and that slavery had remained in place? They really don't make any mystery of it. The entire history of ReconstructIon and the imposition of vicious Jim Crow laws across the South make it unarguable. Yet northerners just won't believe it.
6
I guess I was not up on my state flags, and it came as a shock to me to find out that there are states that actually continue to use the confederate flag. I'm glad that Governor Haley has spoken out, but did it have to take a tragedy of this magnitude for people to finally think about doing the right thing? The use of this downright un-American symbol can only give hope to the sick, insane, outright racists out there hope that their misguided ideas on white supremacy will one day be embraced by the masses. I only hope that lawmakers in these Southern states wise up, and act quickly to banish them for good.
4
I applaud Governor Haley for her courage. She is perhaps the only Republican governor who now has no chance at running for the GOP presidential nomination in 2016. What she did was clear, brave, and necessary.
And now, while we're at it, let's change the names of all military installations that are named after prominent confederates, starting with the ones named after West Point graduates who treasonously fought against the country they had sworn to defend.
And now, while we're at it, let's change the names of all military installations that are named after prominent confederates, starting with the ones named after West Point graduates who treasonously fought against the country they had sworn to defend.
6
Oh please. Haleys wink wink nod nod is pointless and meaningless and done to make the optics better.
I stand by my comment. If cynicism is called for, I'll know it soon enough.
Perhaps next the southern states that make Confederate Memorial Day and Robert E. Lee's and Jefferson Davis birthdays legal holidays might end this practice. Isn't it about time we end the celebration of men who were responsible for the deaths of more American soldiers than Hitler or Tojo. And if the argument is that they were Americans, then why doesn't that argument go for Americans who join ISIS and kill American soldiers in what they believe is a cause just as righteous as the Confederates felt theirs was.
5
I agree that the Confederate battle flag has acquired a reputation as a thinly veiled racist emblem - but it's also true that to many southerners who trace their ancestry to the Civil War and earlier, it's a symbol both of valor in war, and of stoicism in defeat.
The states of the American South - both the Deep South states like South Carolina, and so-called "Upland South" states like Kentucky - have always been a culture apart from the rest of our country in a way that, for example, less culturally distinctive regions like New England and the Upper Midwest haven't been.
Doubters should survey the reference shelves of any well-stocked university library. To encourage historical scholarship, there will be - and should be - at least one, rather thick, encyclopedia of Southern culture.
However, he Confederate battle flag has no place on government sites because its symbolism has taken on radically polarizing facets for different groups.
But Americans - we Americans, all of us - resist attempts to bar us from doing things we're inclined to do. Sadly, however, some well-intentioned liberals and progressives have a naïvely negative "reformist" inclination to "make us ( stubborn Americans ) behave."
To compromise, switch to placing the second, "Stainless Banner" Confederate flag (which wasn't a battle flag) - along with the U.S. 35-star Civil War Era flag - at monuments reminding us all of the trauma of that internecine war, at sites where the battle flag now flies.
The states of the American South - both the Deep South states like South Carolina, and so-called "Upland South" states like Kentucky - have always been a culture apart from the rest of our country in a way that, for example, less culturally distinctive regions like New England and the Upper Midwest haven't been.
Doubters should survey the reference shelves of any well-stocked university library. To encourage historical scholarship, there will be - and should be - at least one, rather thick, encyclopedia of Southern culture.
However, he Confederate battle flag has no place on government sites because its symbolism has taken on radically polarizing facets for different groups.
But Americans - we Americans, all of us - resist attempts to bar us from doing things we're inclined to do. Sadly, however, some well-intentioned liberals and progressives have a naïvely negative "reformist" inclination to "make us ( stubborn Americans ) behave."
To compromise, switch to placing the second, "Stainless Banner" Confederate flag (which wasn't a battle flag) - along with the U.S. 35-star Civil War Era flag - at monuments reminding us all of the trauma of that internecine war, at sites where the battle flag now flies.
21
Oh please, there can be no compromise with hate. Stringing words together do not hide the fact it was about slavery and the death of millions worked to death after being tortured and abused, by the self same gang of traitors that tried their best to destroy this nation.
3
"Valor in war" against the United States of America? The Nonsensical justification of flying the flag of treason because your ancestors fought against America is fraught with contradictions. No one would tolerate the Nazi flag being flown over Berlin, or South Carolina. This is a symbol of slavery, treachery, sedition and should be remembered like the Swastika. And it may be, among the racist skin heads and white supremacists making it more obviously abhorrent.
3
liberals are not the problem here, ignorance by the S.C. populists is!
2
Just to think of some of the comments today from men who actually think they deserve to be President of the United States. We had Huckabee saying that running this issue has NOTHING to do with running for President. Ok, I don't know what rock he crawled out from under. Santorum said that he "had an opinion like everyone else" but, in typical slimy fashion, would not say what his opinion was! Funny how he doesn't mind sharing his views on just about every other social issue. Cruz said it wasn't for people outside SC to decide this, as though Americans didn't (or shouldn't) have a say in something that is a blight on ALL of us. Perry said the flag should come down and then put his foot squarely in his mouth by calling the massacre an ACCIDENT. Graham originally wouldn't commit to an opinion until the governor finally took a stand today. Based on these few observations, all showing a total LACK of understanding for matters of racial harmony, is it any wonder we continue to live through tragedy upon tragedy with no end in sight? People with COURAGE are what's needed and all we get are shady cowards.
6
Will we next hear all our politicians condemning the hate speech of white supremacist groups?
There is a huge difference between allowing free speech and condoning hate speech, particularly that which promotes violence. Right now we really need an eloquent speaker like Martin Luther King Jr. to remind us of this.
There is a huge difference between allowing free speech and condoning hate speech, particularly that which promotes violence. Right now we really need an eloquent speaker like Martin Luther King Jr. to remind us of this.
2
Correct! Shouting Fire in a crowded theatre.
There is another reason the Confederate flag flies: it's a mean-spirited act. Where is the decency in those Southerners in acknowledging the pain it brings to so many fellow Americans? It's like sticking your tongue out to someone and saying, " I don't give a hoot how you feel."
6
Symbols change with time and context. The Confederate battle flag originally had an important symbolic function: because the Confederate national flag was inexplicably quite similar to that of the United States, the battle flag was deployed in combat simply to help everyone now where to find Johnny Reb. In close-quarters combat on a smoke-darkened battlefield of the black powder era, that was useful information. Having grown up in part in the Deep South, I know and respect that the battle flag does now symbolize Southern heritage to many; but to far, far too many others, it is a visual code for hate. That may well be no fault of anyone but the hatemongers, and it may spoil it for all those whose sentiments are benign or even reverential, but because of what the flag has come to symbolize to the wrong element, it must go from government property. Had the people who in any way support the act of raw evil that occurred in Charlotte sought to unite behind the banner of a daisy, a flag bearing that symbolic flower should also not be permitted on governmental property. The graphic as an object is not the problem--it is what the graphic has come to mean to those whose favor no civilized person should seek to curry.
71
Came to symbolize the wrong element, no it neatly sympolized hate, viscous inhumanity and the blight of treason. That "flower" would be the white camellia would it? Wink wink nod nod
I grew up in the south also, and I think southerners are fooling themselves about their heritage. Though it's distasteful to compare such things, I'd say the slavery the Confederacy was formed to preserve was a much worse "raw evil" than any deranged individual's massacre, precisely because it was part of the social, cultural & legal fabric--as the Nazi state was a greater evil than a lone act of antisemitism. There's no shame in being descended from people who committed crimes against humanity; we all find ourselves in that position are at one remove or another. But it is shameful to glorify or minimize crimes simply because your great-grandfather committed them. I can't help but wonder: if Southerners would learn to be more and questioning & critical about their heritage, would they also be less likely to be the most backward part of the country in attitudes toward marginalized people today, toward gays, blacks, Muslims, etc?
I'll tell you where the Confederate flag hasn't been taken down- across the street from the former Dachau Concentration camp at a house built for and owned by members of the SS; I teach in kreis Dachau and was amazed when I walked past with my students:
http://www.tracesofevil.com/2008/01/dachau.html
http://www.tracesofevil.com/2008/01/dachau.html
1
It says something unflattering about our national government that it doesn't care to preserve the terms not just of the Civil Rights movement, but of the outcome of our Civil War. The flag is the symbol of that rebellion, and so of the conflict itself. It symbolizes the slave power and a white domination of blacks. Why the Congress of the United States never outlawed the public display of the Stars and Bars is baffling. We had to get to this.
2
Dylann Roof sought to start a new civil war. Ironically, all he has done is begun a much needed civil discussion about race.
A punishment more fitting than the death penalty (which is deserved), is to see his actions finally move this symbol of racism off public building, deep into the history books, next to the trail of tears, the slave trade and all the other stains in our history.
A punishment more fitting than the death penalty (which is deserved), is to see his actions finally move this symbol of racism off public building, deep into the history books, next to the trail of tears, the slave trade and all the other stains in our history.
130
This is such a bizarre pivot. By all means, the flag should come down. But for this to arise as a key issue from the shooting -- I don't know -- seems superficial and, ultimately, inconsequential. Never let a crisis go to waste, I suppose.
1
The "controversy" surrounding the Confederate flag should really be no controversy at all. The truth -- and we all know it, "South" and "North" alike -- is that this flag is the symbol of a thankfully defeated group of agricultural capitalists that enslaved people in prison work camps and gathered its wealth from the uncompensated labor of kidnapped people from the continent of Africa. It's not a "state" flag; it is the national flag of a nascent nation that thankfully didn't succeed to continue its brutal economy of forced and maximally exploited labor. It has no business flying over any state house for any reason. It should never be unfurled with any official sanction or right granted to its display. Unless we will also extend this right to the flags of Nazism, ISIS, the old Communist dictatorships, the Rising Sun Flag of WWII Japan, and others alike. Why not let them all fly? They symbolize nations and movements that were, or are, evil and brutal and exploitative of labor and anti-democratic by principle and design. What ultimate good comes from societies of racial inequality, tyranny and forced labor? The Confederate flag represents all that. Why should it officially fly anywhere in the U.S. today, except in a museum with the flags and symbols of other defeated national cancers.
5
"Senator Lindsey Graham, a Republican presidential candidate from South Carolina, who initially said the flag was “part of who we are,” urged the Legislature to remove the flag from the Capitol grounds."
He may be saying that now, but just a few months ago when speaking to a group of supporters he said under his administration (if elected as President) white men in male only clubs would do just fine.
He made these comments while not realizing his voice was being recorded.
So if you are not white and male, then what?
How will these people be treated under a Lindsey Graham administration?
He may be saying that now, but just a few months ago when speaking to a group of supporters he said under his administration (if elected as President) white men in male only clubs would do just fine.
He made these comments while not realizing his voice was being recorded.
So if you are not white and male, then what?
How will these people be treated under a Lindsey Graham administration?
6
The people were there who caused the race problem in America to just get worse. It never served their purposes to achieve any solution, but rather served their purposes to cause worse polarization and divisions.
This was started way back before Civil Rights as such became any cause.
And it is continuing today, exactly as planned by the same people.
These people are not friends of America, are not allowing any hope for a future for America to exist at all.
And these are the same people without whom, Civil Rights laws and any of such help for blacks would not have happened. Isn't that paradoxical?
This was started way back before Civil Rights as such became any cause.
And it is continuing today, exactly as planned by the same people.
These people are not friends of America, are not allowing any hope for a future for America to exist at all.
And these are the same people without whom, Civil Rights laws and any of such help for blacks would not have happened. Isn't that paradoxical?
Symbols are much more powerful than words. They allow the viewer to personalize them by adding connotations that enhance their meaning. In this case, some viewers are claiming that the Confederate flag honors Southern war dead from the Civil War. It does not. It never did.
The Civil War was fought over slavery, the institution of people owning people. No pride or honor can be derived from the practice of slavery.
There is only flag that represents this nation and that is the stars and stripes. That flag flew in opposition to the Confederate flag. The Confederacy and its flag represent treason and open rebellion. Again, these are not attributes any patriot would be proud of.
So what does the Confederate flag truly represent? It represents hate, discrimination, segregation, oppression, and anarchy. I say that because that is exactly how it has been used for nearly 150 years. Are these the things that Southerners admire? If they are, then these admirers are not patriots. They are an embarrassment to the nation, the nation that flies the stars and stripes. Our nation.
No one, no citizen and certainly no patriot should want to see that flag on public display. It represents everything this nation stands against. It's about time this nation took a stand against this flag. Take it down.
The Civil War was fought over slavery, the institution of people owning people. No pride or honor can be derived from the practice of slavery.
There is only flag that represents this nation and that is the stars and stripes. That flag flew in opposition to the Confederate flag. The Confederacy and its flag represent treason and open rebellion. Again, these are not attributes any patriot would be proud of.
So what does the Confederate flag truly represent? It represents hate, discrimination, segregation, oppression, and anarchy. I say that because that is exactly how it has been used for nearly 150 years. Are these the things that Southerners admire? If they are, then these admirers are not patriots. They are an embarrassment to the nation, the nation that flies the stars and stripes. Our nation.
No one, no citizen and certainly no patriot should want to see that flag on public display. It represents everything this nation stands against. It's about time this nation took a stand against this flag. Take it down.
295
All statements like yours need to be followed by a warning. Devalue a symbol honored by violent people and expect violence in response. Any bill against the state's flying of the Confederate flag has to include appropriations funding enhanced protection for black communities.
I agree completely with your review.
I'm sure that if someone's daddy or family flew the confederate flag and as a child they became attached to it just like their family name or their families land of origin - usually Europe. As a northern boy I always knew it was a "rebel" flag. As a teenager we all thought it was cool - it represented the "bad boys" and dukes of hazard. It meant you were independent of order and perhaps the law. But as rebel as I was I never flew it because I did not relate to it. So let's all just respect the folks that recently died and their families while not blaming the confederate flag. If the NRA of confederate flags existed I'm sure the flag would keep flying over the capitol of South Carolina. Guns kill more people than flags.
I'm sure that if someone's daddy or family flew the confederate flag and as a child they became attached to it just like their family name or their families land of origin - usually Europe. As a northern boy I always knew it was a "rebel" flag. As a teenager we all thought it was cool - it represented the "bad boys" and dukes of hazard. It meant you were independent of order and perhaps the law. But as rebel as I was I never flew it because I did not relate to it. So let's all just respect the folks that recently died and their families while not blaming the confederate flag. If the NRA of confederate flags existed I'm sure the flag would keep flying over the capitol of South Carolina. Guns kill more people than flags.
Flags are symbols. But they mean different things to different people. Please do not start telling me what certain things should mean to me. Also, Mr. President, please do not tell me I am racist. Once one group of people starts trying to tell everyone else what things are supposed to mean, and starts wholesale labeling, we have a problem. The flag didn't kill those innocent souls.
May God bless and keep them.
May God bless and keep them.
1
Here are just some of the bills the Democrat party has opposed since the Civil War.
Civil Rights Act 1866
Reconstruction Act of 1867
Freedman Bureau Extension Act of 1866
Ku Klux Klan Act of 1871
Civil Rights Act of 1875
Civil Rights Act of 1957
Civil Rights Act of 1960
1964 Civil Rights Act
1965 Voting Rights Acts
1972 Equal Employment Opportunity Act
Civil Rights Act 1866
Reconstruction Act of 1867
Freedman Bureau Extension Act of 1866
Ku Klux Klan Act of 1871
Civil Rights Act of 1875
Civil Rights Act of 1957
Civil Rights Act of 1960
1964 Civil Rights Act
1965 Voting Rights Acts
1972 Equal Employment Opportunity Act
3
You make clear that the outlooks of people who gathered under party names changed, and even reversed, over the course of 150 years. The Republicans of Lincoln are not the Republicans of 2015. The same is true for the Democrats.
The southern states were predominantly Democratic after the Civil War because, well, you know, Lincoln's Emancipation Proclamation really messed up the slavery thing. There the Democrats favored Jim Crow oppression of former slaves. While the economic policies of FDR appealed to many Southerners, the Dixiecrats and their segregationist iterations who were still nominally "Democrats" (think Strom Thurmond) had little affinity with the Hubert Humphrey or Lyndon Johnson outlooks on Civil Rights. Johnson knew that his support for the Voting Rights Act would cause long term damage as Democrats changed allegiances to the new Republican party that was definitely NOT the party of Lincoln. The Republicans who cite Lincoln these days make me laugh at their historical ignorance or cringe at their intentional deception.
The southern states were predominantly Democratic after the Civil War because, well, you know, Lincoln's Emancipation Proclamation really messed up the slavery thing. There the Democrats favored Jim Crow oppression of former slaves. While the economic policies of FDR appealed to many Southerners, the Dixiecrats and their segregationist iterations who were still nominally "Democrats" (think Strom Thurmond) had little affinity with the Hubert Humphrey or Lyndon Johnson outlooks on Civil Rights. Johnson knew that his support for the Voting Rights Act would cause long term damage as Democrats changed allegiances to the new Republican party that was definitely NOT the party of Lincoln. The Republicans who cite Lincoln these days make me laugh at their historical ignorance or cringe at their intentional deception.
1
You do know who passed it right and gosh golly what happened after the dixicrats quit poisoning the democrat party and left it for wait for it....the modern republicans
To quote dates in isolation is not history. To understand the significance of your dates, consult the zeitgeist. The GOP's Southern Strategy postdated most of your milestones.
3
Governor Haley's decision reminds me of Captain Renault in Casablanca, who is a regular player at Rick's bar and clandestine casino: " I'm shocked, shocked to find that gambling is going on in here!" It took the massacre of nine black citizens by a a stars-and-bars loving terrorist beguiled by Southern hatreds to make unavoidable what Haley and every southerner, white and black, always understood about that flag. More important, Walmart has decided to stop selling any clothing or items that include the Confederate battle flag.
7
How is this a symbol of State's rights? Shut up, us Black people are everywhere :)
2
Shut Up? The Battle Flag of the Army of Northern Virginia is also everywhere--just not so incorrigibly and so insistently as in SC.
And while we are it, can we stop watching and praising all those movies that glorify the Old South, starting with "Gone With The Wind". It's just fake nostalgia for a time of slavery, oppression, and rape.
2
Lucky for the citizens of SC, it's not up to socialists like the NY Times, nor the governor, nor wimpy senators like Scott and Graham. It's up to the citizens, and has nothing to do with Charleston. Stay out of it and let the citizens of SC, through their elected representatives decide. Who are you to tell SC citizens what's best for them, Editorial Board? Trying to help educate them, pull them into the 21st century again? Move on to something substantive.
1
The Constitution has outlawed "badges of slavery" for 150 years. The battle flag is a badge of slavery. 'Nuff said.
That goes on to explain why so few are willing to invest in a state infested with that attitude. "South Carolina is home to just 13 companies — or 0.4% — of the companies in the broad Russell 3000, an index that includes every significant company with public shares. The few companies based in South Carolina are tiny and account for just 0.1% of the total revenue collected by all the companies in the Russell 3000, according to a USA TODAY analysis of data from S&P Capital IQ"
Lowering the flag of the Old Confederacy will not return the lives lost in church a week ago. They paid a terrible price for the simple act of worship. Those of us who value tolerance and decency must pray that the sacrifice of the nine parishioners at their church was not without noble purpose. Those who will agitate for the flag's continued prominence in their Southern life may wish to reflect that the Stars and Stripes represent America, not the stars and bars. The Stars and Stripes were hoisted over Iwo Jima; not the stars and bars. The Stars and Stripes flew in many winds in lands where American soldiers were called upon to serve; not the stars and bars. The defiant public display of any other colors is an affront to the Stars and Stripes and belittles thise living and dead who contributed great service to their country with great pride, and great love. Their allegiance was to country, not to section. The Stars and Stripes guarantees any citizen worship at a church/synagogue/mosque of his or her or their own choosing. The stars and bars signals otherwise and it is un-American. To love what this symbol reminds us of is to truly hate America and every good for which it stands and all those who served.
135
The people murdered at the church lost their lives because of their skin color, not because they were engaged in the "simple act of worship." The murderer told it was so to everybody who wanted to hear.
While I agree with the thoughts you express
historical accuracy would say your found the "Stars and Bars"
showed up on many US battlefields after the Civil War.
historical accuracy would say your found the "Stars and Bars"
showed up on many US battlefields after the Civil War.
1
The Governor of South Carolina showed courage & decency, in urging the removal of the confederate flag.Now the North must remove the stigma of racism & bigotry from the Southern Citizens of this country.The South has changed , it is no longer the haven for bigots & racists,and this crazed white supremacist who committed this heinous crime does not represent the majority of the south if anything, the North now owns this distinction.Segregation is alive and well in the North. Wherever, you go in the north you will find black neighborhoods & white neighborhoods, rarely do you see mixed neighborhoods.We are in no position to cast stones.The major difference between the North & the South, is the people of the South are the most hospitable I ever had the privilege of knowing.
3
She did nothing of the sort- she yeilded to the horrific optics of the situation becuase she wants national office. But she also know she is utterly ineffectual and safe from doing anything real. Check out her statements immediately prior.
Have you ever lived there?? I have. Yes, they are 'hospitable', but it is only skin deep. They are hospitable to those they have a lot in common with. Every day I was asked "y'all have a church yet"? And when I respectfully told them the truth, they never spoke to me again except to ask , yet again, "y'all have a church yet"? They never respected my beliefs, or even those of people who attended other churches.
It is so obvious what needs to be done that it is incredible a debate even exist! What should be asked is why has the federal govt condoned state sponsored terrorism for almost 15 decades?
3
Interesting trivia about the Confederate Stars and Bars:
1) The flag shown in the photo is NOT the flag of the Confederacy. It is the battle flag originally used by the Army of Northern Virginia and later adopted by other Confederate armies as their battle standareds. The actual official Confederate flag has the battle flag as a canton in the upper corner of the actual flag on a field of white, later adding a red bar at the the end of the flag so it wouldn't look like a white flag of surrender from a distance
2) The original design was supposed to be like the horizontal crosses found on the Scandinavian flags and the flag of England. But no one should ever say history doesn't have it's strange ironies. The Confederacy decided to alter the design to the Cross of Andrew design familiar today. Why? Because the same breakaway country that chose war in defense of its racist slave economy, decided not to use the Christian cross design in deference to the South's Jewish and Seventh Day Adventist populations.
1) The flag shown in the photo is NOT the flag of the Confederacy. It is the battle flag originally used by the Army of Northern Virginia and later adopted by other Confederate armies as their battle standareds. The actual official Confederate flag has the battle flag as a canton in the upper corner of the actual flag on a field of white, later adding a red bar at the the end of the flag so it wouldn't look like a white flag of surrender from a distance
2) The original design was supposed to be like the horizontal crosses found on the Scandinavian flags and the flag of England. But no one should ever say history doesn't have it's strange ironies. The Confederacy decided to alter the design to the Cross of Andrew design familiar today. Why? Because the same breakaway country that chose war in defense of its racist slave economy, decided not to use the Christian cross design in deference to the South's Jewish and Seventh Day Adventist populations.
2
“Southern pride”? "Southern pride"? Proud of WHAT, exactly? Auction blocks? Driver's lash? Rape? Lynchings? KKK? Burning crosses? Leg irons? Amputated feet? What exactly is this "Southern pride"?
10
As recently as 1989 we had a Democratic Senate Majority Leader who filibustered the Voing Rights Act of 1964 and was a member of the Ku Klux Klan in high office We should all be disgusted by this and the fact that numerous federal and state facilities in West Viriginia still bear the name of Robert Byrd.
4
Abraham Lincoln, as soon as the war was over, asked that Dixie be played in White House celebration. Abraham Lincoln, in the Gettysburg address, referred to "the brave men, living and dead, who struggled here," and not the brave union men. Reconciliation, respect, and honor for all Americans was his policy. But many southerners, proud and resentful as they have been and continue to be, did not respond positively, and so what you saw was a century of segregation, discrimination, hatred and violence. And it continues. The confederate flag on government property, whether it be a license plate or the capital grounds, is simply a continuation of that sad, hateful, bigoted southern disease. And it's long overdue for excision.
5
A government is meant to respond to its citizens--all citizens--regardless of race, gender or economic status.
A flag on government property that is offensive to many of these same citizens, which historically symbolizes both the right to secede and the right to own human property, does not belong on any government property.
Sadly, our politicians have been weak and wary on making a stand on something that should be easy. What happened to courage?
If we cannot address something like a flag, how are we ever going to work as a country to address larger issues?
A flag on government property that is offensive to many of these same citizens, which historically symbolizes both the right to secede and the right to own human property, does not belong on any government property.
Sadly, our politicians have been weak and wary on making a stand on something that should be easy. What happened to courage?
If we cannot address something like a flag, how are we ever going to work as a country to address larger issues?
6
Mississippi, obviously, should be the next to take down that symbol of racism. Then maybe Texans will realize that the other Confederate flag has been embarrassing their statehouse this whole time.
2
Even if you see the Confederate flag as nothing more than a harmless tribute to Southern heritage, please remember that to many it represents a celebration of brutal crimes against humanity. As my wife who works in Human Resources says, "it's not the intention, it's the perception."
3
And sometimes it is the explicit, mutually understood intention.
My ancestors died in the Cicil War, fighting for the Confederacy. Take this divisive flag down. Our racial divides need to be past - not present or future. Thank you, Governor Haley, for stepping up to this important issue. (Spoken by a life-long Democrat).
4
Gov. Haley's words were easy for her to say. Before the last election Gov. Rick Scott wanted to expand Medicaid in FL then changed his mind. Republican governors don't have very good records on keeping promises unless big money is pushing for change.
Let's see the actions SC takes. Only 2/3 of the General Assembly is needed to bring the removal of this symbol of racial hatred up for a vote in the coming special session. Or will SC state legislators choose to delay hoping people will forget.
Let's see the actions SC takes. Only 2/3 of the General Assembly is needed to bring the removal of this symbol of racial hatred up for a vote in the coming special session. Or will SC state legislators choose to delay hoping people will forget.
3
You would be surprised that I write; what a disappointment this terror tragedy is summarized in calls to remove a flag. The racial terror runs deep in people's minds and I expected truly profound speaking in the wake of this horror visited on all of America.
What would Jesus do might be a retort you would hear. He would love everyone's minds, not their appearance.
What would Jesus do might be a retort you would hear. He would love everyone's minds, not their appearance.
1
Taking the Confedrate Battle Flag down permanently would be a good start.
Burning a flag has been deemed protected political speech by the US Supreme Court.
Burning a flag has been deemed protected political speech by the US Supreme Court.
1
Even if the Stars 'n Bars truly commemorate "southern pride," the question is: pride in what? Slavery? Lynching? Jim Crow? School and transportation segregation? Voter suppression? Mass murder? South Carolina needs a flag to glorify the noxious petri dish that gave us Dylann Roof?
This misbegotten flag celebrates history's most impactful effort to rip apart the United States of America. Then, after defeat, SC petitioned to re-join the Union. With that, the Confederate flag should have been trashed once and for all.
Today? Better 150 years late than never.
This misbegotten flag celebrates history's most impactful effort to rip apart the United States of America. Then, after defeat, SC petitioned to re-join the Union. With that, the Confederate flag should have been trashed once and for all.
Today? Better 150 years late than never.
3
Who did not understand by now that the Confederate battle flag had been turned into a symbol of white supremacy and that its value as such had increased step by step as African-Americans in the U.S., and especially the south, moved closer to full social, economic and political participation in American society?
Who didn't get the memo?
Who looked the other way while pick-up trucks, which might at one time have carried KKK signs, waved giant battle flag off the back as they cruised around southern towns and villages?
Only those who didn't want to see the facts.
Only the 12 blind men (or however many are running) for the Republican presidential nomination next year. Only those who wanted to MAKE EXCUSES for the repression and shooting of black men, for the jailing of millions and the exclusion of millions of others from educational and economic opportunity failed to see that a potent symbol had been created from the blood of the American Civil War.
A lot of white people everywhere are tired of racism and worn down by the idea that they need to do "more" (many who have not done much of anything to fight this scourge). Understand, please, that slavery was America's holocaust. Its aftermath must be dealt with honestly, righteously and, to wash out this sin, a national cleansing of truth and loving decency will be required.
As a nation, we are up to this task. We have buried many outward signs of racism and we can summon the courage to finish the job. I believe it.
Who didn't get the memo?
Who looked the other way while pick-up trucks, which might at one time have carried KKK signs, waved giant battle flag off the back as they cruised around southern towns and villages?
Only those who didn't want to see the facts.
Only the 12 blind men (or however many are running) for the Republican presidential nomination next year. Only those who wanted to MAKE EXCUSES for the repression and shooting of black men, for the jailing of millions and the exclusion of millions of others from educational and economic opportunity failed to see that a potent symbol had been created from the blood of the American Civil War.
A lot of white people everywhere are tired of racism and worn down by the idea that they need to do "more" (many who have not done much of anything to fight this scourge). Understand, please, that slavery was America's holocaust. Its aftermath must be dealt with honestly, righteously and, to wash out this sin, a national cleansing of truth and loving decency will be required.
As a nation, we are up to this task. We have buried many outward signs of racism and we can summon the courage to finish the job. I believe it.
8
Under NYTime's First Draft, Allen Rappeport noted with respect to South Carolina's Confederate battle flag "Tongue-tied over the issue for nearly a week, senior Republicans jumped on the bandwagon Monday."
I hope Americans take careful note of the mad scramble by Republicans, especially their Presidential candidates, to "lead from behind" on this issue, which offers so abundantly clear a choice between right and wrong. "Leading from behind" is an accusation made several times against our black President, and on issues far more arcane and difficult to negotiate in a troubled word. Yet here in this abundantly clear issue involving s symbol that stokes murderous impulses, we see that Republicans themselves are pathetic as "leaders," unable to muster on their own the true resolve of leadership, merely standing at the roadside, thumb in the air to the winds of change, waiting for the right bandwagon to roll past. The deep republican hypocrisy as to what constitutes leadership is disgusting. I am sorry they have any role at all in "leading" America.
I hope Americans take careful note of the mad scramble by Republicans, especially their Presidential candidates, to "lead from behind" on this issue, which offers so abundantly clear a choice between right and wrong. "Leading from behind" is an accusation made several times against our black President, and on issues far more arcane and difficult to negotiate in a troubled word. Yet here in this abundantly clear issue involving s symbol that stokes murderous impulses, we see that Republicans themselves are pathetic as "leaders," unable to muster on their own the true resolve of leadership, merely standing at the roadside, thumb in the air to the winds of change, waiting for the right bandwagon to roll past. The deep republican hypocrisy as to what constitutes leadership is disgusting. I am sorry they have any role at all in "leading" America.
10
South Carolina occupies a seminal place in the history of the Civil War and the fraught history of race relations that followed. It was the first state to secede; the opening shots of the war were fired in Charleston harbor on Fort Sumter; Clarendon County was one of the first cases that led to the 1954 Brown v. Topeka Board of Education Supreme Court ruling outlawing de jure segregation and it's where Kenneth Clark performed his landmark psychological study showing the harmful effects of segregation that ultimately persuaded the court; and it's the home of Strom Thurmond who led a modern campaign against civil rights starting with the Dixiecrat Party revolt in 1948 against the integration orders of President Truman. So now as we've just celebrated the 150th anniversary of the end of the Civil War, South Carolina is finally about to surrender and retire the Confederate battle flag--a sad, divisive symbol of its pro-slavery heritage. Let's hope it's more than just symbolic, important as that is, but is followed by other actions the end the fear and hatred that have left us a nation that is still much too "separate and unequal."
6
It should be done by State and Federal Executive Orders. Because it was the symbol of terrorism, racism, bigotry, white Supremacy, treason to overthrown the US Government and as a symbol to assassinate the US President by the rebels.
5
The Civil War ended 150 years ago. Enough with the resentment. Enough with the intransigence. Enough with the hate.
This flag symbolizes all three and belongs nowhere other than a museum.
This flag symbolizes all three and belongs nowhere other than a museum.
7
I'm curious. How do we feel about dynamiting the memorials to fallen Confederate soldiers at, say, Gettysburg? We seem to have established, in these comments, that they were a bunch of traitors. It IS a NATIONAL park, after all.
Anyone?
Anyone?
1
Another typical fallacious straw-man argument. Nobody is calling for the destruction of monuments to dead soldiers. Can't you understand the difference between a historical monument standing silently on a battlefield-museum and a flag waving in front of the state capital? We don't wave monuments. We wave flags and this particular flag is THE symbol of a slavery-based economy justified by false racial superiority.
Looks to me like the flag in question is flying over the statue of a soldier, not the state Capitol building. Should they both go? Again, just curious, not arguing either way.
Nobody is asking for the statue to move. Flags flown at the top of a pole wave from afar. Flags are active testaments to the thing they symbolize.
2
"I pledge allegiance to the flag
of the State of South Carolina,
and to the principle for which it
stands: two nations, divisible, with
liberty and justice for one."
of the State of South Carolina,
and to the principle for which it
stands: two nations, divisible, with
liberty and justice for one."
3
Alexander Stephens, Vice-President of the Confederate States of America, stated with pride in a public speech shortly after secession, "Our new Government is founded... upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery, subordination to the superior race, is his natural and moral condition." Surely it's time to stop all the self-deceiving talk about states' rights, heritage, and historic pride and take that horrendous symbol of racism down.
9
The flag and the statues speak to the honor my forebears. It is a shame and a personal insult that the flag is removed. Particularly so when this little ole Quaker has a long and honored life spent in the defense and promotion of racial equality.
May I point out that of the nearly 100 years of slavery as a nation, only five years of slavery existed under the Stars and Bars.
Shall we remover Ole Glory? Of course not.
It is disingenuous to ignore my message and bask in the miasma of the message sent by skinheads who dishonor my symbol.
I resent it!
May I point out that of the nearly 100 years of slavery as a nation, only five years of slavery existed under the Stars and Bars.
Shall we remover Ole Glory? Of course not.
It is disingenuous to ignore my message and bask in the miasma of the message sent by skinheads who dishonor my symbol.
I resent it!
24
100 years of slavery that were threatened by the refusal of Northern states to abide by the fugitive slave act. Go back and read the secession declaration. It is exactly because of racially-based slavery that the flag came into existence. Whatever honor battlefield soldiers may have had their cause was nevertheless misbegotten racism.
9
Flawed numbers and flawed logic. Slavery started in 1609 Virginia. Slavery under the stars and bars existed throughout the Civil War and was the major impetus for secession. Official slavery ended with Lincoln's Emancipation Proclamation only in the the states in rebellion. Your "only five years" is meaningless to the flag's symbolism of the right to own and oppress people. That depraved economic system is exactly what our Confederate ancestors went into secession for. Slavery was the most extreme, hideous treatment of workers for financial gain of the their owners and all the other profiteers, southern and northern, who benefited from the cheap labor costs on plantations, in mines, and in lumbering companies. Your abolitionist Quaker forebears would not agree with your benign interpretation of this symbol. nor would those who later fought and died for civil rights while segregationists defiantly waved the stars and bars as a symbol of white supremacy and slavery by another name.
12
Take a look at the pictures of Mr. Root with the Confederate flag and tell me again how he symbolizes your ancestors. The Confederate flag is a pretty good symbol of Southern resentment of Northern victory, so of course you resent taking it down.
10
I applaud Governor Haley's recommendation that the Confederate flag be removed from SC property.
However given what the Confederate flag represents her statement that SC residents should feel free to fly that flag on their own property is most unfortunate.
Why not instead suggest that they fly the SC state flag if they wished to honor SC.
The First Amendment allows people to display the Confederate flag or a Nazi swastika flag.
But what is lawful is not necessarily appropriate.
Given what the Confederate flag [as well as the Nazi flag] stand for neither should be displayed.
However given what the Confederate flag represents her statement that SC residents should feel free to fly that flag on their own property is most unfortunate.
Why not instead suggest that they fly the SC state flag if they wished to honor SC.
The First Amendment allows people to display the Confederate flag or a Nazi swastika flag.
But what is lawful is not necessarily appropriate.
Given what the Confederate flag [as well as the Nazi flag] stand for neither should be displayed.
9
Little-known fact: the Confederate battle flag went up in defiance of Brown vs. Board of Education and ahs been a perennial symbol of resistance to Civil Rights legislation. Prior to 1954 the flag was nowhere to be seen.
https://kpfa.org/player/?audio=208991
https://kpfa.org/player/?audio=208991
18
Little-known fact: the fact that you cited is noted in the article your comment is attached to. No need to seek an external source.
Welcome to the 20th Century, South Carolina (assuming that the flag actually IS removed)! As for making it all the way to the current millennium you'll need to stop passing laws of the sort that place obstacles in the way of blacks who wish to exercise their constitutional right to vote. You might also want to take some action to prevent guns from easily falling into the hands of criminals, racists and lunatics. Too much to hope for...?
131
stu:
You really should stop using this event to air all your grievances. It just separates you further from the people on whose behalf you are supposedly complaining.
They should not be used just so everyone else can vent their anger.
You really should stop using this event to air all your grievances. It just separates you further from the people on whose behalf you are supposedly complaining.
They should not be used just so everyone else can vent their anger.
6
@AACNY: If I'm using them what do you think that Ms. Haley and her supporters are doing? Did it really have to come to this for a flag that represents a hateful agenda from the distant past to finally be lowered at the state capitol? And if they're going to continue passing the same sort of biased legislation as was implemented during these past 150 years (i.e., ever since manumission) the idea of taking down that flag isn't going to accomplish anything of substance. (Notice that I haven't specified the political party to which "they" presently belong. I'll leave that to your imagination- although my "complaints" wouldn't deviate by one scintilla if Dixiecrats were still running things down there.)
12
White supremcists are a small group lacking any power whatsoever. It is not they whose greed threw millions of black Americans out of work in 2008. It is not they who had control of the White House, House and Senate and yet chose to shove $Trillions out of the US Treasury to rich men instead of providing police protection, jobs, and good education to poor Northern ghettos like Camden NJ --that have some of the highest homicide rates on the planet. The desperate hypocrisy here -- the haunting fear that resentful black voters will not turn out for Hillary next year -- is hilarious.
1
Somebody in Congress, someone white with guts, should author a bill that matches whatever rules Germany has for the Nazi flag. I can't imagine it is legal there, and I see little difference.
Mississippi has the same symbol on their official state flag. It needs to go too. I would call them both Neanderthals, but that would be a compliment based on what I see. Neanderthals had an excuse.
Mississippi has the same symbol on their official state flag. It needs to go too. I would call them both Neanderthals, but that would be a compliment based on what I see. Neanderthals had an excuse.
84
That "southern pride" the flag might symbolize to some boils down to the same white supremacist, racist, slave owning garbage it always did. Pure dog whistle phrasing.
174
Says the guy from the state with the most school segregation in the entire country.
You'll find me fighting that, too.
2
Perfectly said. Governor Haley takes a brave stand, long overdue. It is time to move forward. Let the lives of these nine dear souls bring a new awakening about the country's need for tolerance and harmony.
18
Please, Hardbop....seems like 9 dead has now being erased from everyone's memories, in favor of a flag issue. Now THAT'S an issue vital to current events. I'm sure 9 people killed by a kook want to be used as pawns over a flag-flying issue. Another case of out-of-state'rs trying to tell SC citizens what's best for them. Just stay out of it.
This is not a brave stand. She took the opposite position during her election.
Now, she is just trying to position herself as a GOP vice presidential candidate.
A brave stand would have been if she had taken the position before 9 people were murdered for what that flag stands for, white supremacy.
Now, she is just trying to position herself as a GOP vice presidential candidate.
A brave stand would have been if she had taken the position before 9 people were murdered for what that flag stands for, white supremacy.
3
I am a Jewish American who was born five years after World War II ended. The world learned about the horrors of the Holocaust in which thirteen million people, including six million Jews, the disabled, and others were systematically murdered by their government because they were thought to be impure and destroying the Aryan race. The symbol that defined this horrific doctrine was the swatztika. The Confederate flag is no different than the swaztika.
Blacks were brought to America as slaves bound with neck braces, leg irons, and handcuffs. The doctrine of racial purity that allowed this to happen and allowed thousands of Blacks to by lynched, the homes and churches of Blacks to be torched, Blacks not being allowed to eat in the same restaurants and stay in the same hotels as Whites, drink from the same water fountains as Whites, and the continued attempts for over a century to deny Blacks the right to vote was symbolized by the Confederate flag.
Near the capital of South Carolina is a statue of Benjamin Tillman, a Reconstruction-era governor and senator, who defended white supremacy and the lynching of African-Americans.
In Germany today there are no statues of Adolf Hitler. There are no swaztika's flying from government buildings. The German doctrine of racial purity was defeated as it was here during the Civil War. Symbols of bigotry and hatred which reflect the murder and oppression of another people have no place being displayed anywhere in America ever again.
Blacks were brought to America as slaves bound with neck braces, leg irons, and handcuffs. The doctrine of racial purity that allowed this to happen and allowed thousands of Blacks to by lynched, the homes and churches of Blacks to be torched, Blacks not being allowed to eat in the same restaurants and stay in the same hotels as Whites, drink from the same water fountains as Whites, and the continued attempts for over a century to deny Blacks the right to vote was symbolized by the Confederate flag.
Near the capital of South Carolina is a statue of Benjamin Tillman, a Reconstruction-era governor and senator, who defended white supremacy and the lynching of African-Americans.
In Germany today there are no statues of Adolf Hitler. There are no swaztika's flying from government buildings. The German doctrine of racial purity was defeated as it was here during the Civil War. Symbols of bigotry and hatred which reflect the murder and oppression of another people have no place being displayed anywhere in America ever again.
415
Hard to imagine a better summation of the issue for me, a descendant of both slaveowners and those who fought for the Confederacy, but as an adult a proud member of a leading Jewish law firm. I mean, it needed some token goys, after all.
But I have never identified well with my race or class. I have always lived with racial and economic guilt. Not trivial guilt. Well researched, understood, and internalized guilt. This is OUR country. Not MY country. The Confederate flag was and is a symbol of opposition to both our country and its values. If anything, the slaveholding era, in which the North was hardly blameless, was WORSE than the Third Reich. That lasted 12 years. The first slaves came to America in 1619, and it took 247 years for the Emancipation Proclamation to issue. And the Ku Klux Klan, Jim Crow, lynchings and segregation ensued after the Civil War ended.
Ban this symbol of hatred, terrorism, and treason. Certainly on all governmental grounds, institutions and offices. Ban it forever. Ban it especially in South Carolina, the traitorous state that fired the opening shot of the Civil War, which was a war of SOUTHERN aggression, not Northern. Own up to your history, old Southern white folk (I am 67, as white as a snowflake, and the son of Texas and Kentucky parents.)
But I have never identified well with my race or class. I have always lived with racial and economic guilt. Not trivial guilt. Well researched, understood, and internalized guilt. This is OUR country. Not MY country. The Confederate flag was and is a symbol of opposition to both our country and its values. If anything, the slaveholding era, in which the North was hardly blameless, was WORSE than the Third Reich. That lasted 12 years. The first slaves came to America in 1619, and it took 247 years for the Emancipation Proclamation to issue. And the Ku Klux Klan, Jim Crow, lynchings and segregation ensued after the Civil War ended.
Ban this symbol of hatred, terrorism, and treason. Certainly on all governmental grounds, institutions and offices. Ban it forever. Ban it especially in South Carolina, the traitorous state that fired the opening shot of the Civil War, which was a war of SOUTHERN aggression, not Northern. Own up to your history, old Southern white folk (I am 67, as white as a snowflake, and the son of Texas and Kentucky parents.)
3
@ Mark Jeffery Koch
"Near the capital of South Carolina is a statue of Benjamin Tillman, a Reconstruction-era governor and senator, who defended white supremacy and the lynching of African-Americans."
To their credit college students in the state have complained about his statue and his name on buildings for quite some time.
However former Governor Tillman was a fair man in at least one regard. He was equitable in giving pardons to both black and white men who committed the trivial (in his view) crime of murdering their wives. You should read his views on women in general some time.
SC has a long tradition of electing people whom you'd be embarrassed to introduce to your family and friends.
"Near the capital of South Carolina is a statue of Benjamin Tillman, a Reconstruction-era governor and senator, who defended white supremacy and the lynching of African-Americans."
To their credit college students in the state have complained about his statue and his name on buildings for quite some time.
However former Governor Tillman was a fair man in at least one regard. He was equitable in giving pardons to both black and white men who committed the trivial (in his view) crime of murdering their wives. You should read his views on women in general some time.
SC has a long tradition of electing people whom you'd be embarrassed to introduce to your family and friends.
2
During WWII, thousands of German soldiers--most good sons, husbands, and fathers, no doubt--gave their lives, but the cause was so historically abhorrent that the Nazi banner is banned in Germany.
Where is our shame?
Where is our shame?
202
Some people have no shame and will bark for votes for whoever turns out and for whoever pays the election bills. We still have a few of them arguing for the right of states to "decide for themselves" what is racist and what is "cul-chure." That's OK.
The rest of us claim an equal right to call them out as the overt or subtle or covert racists that they are. We call it free speech too, honey. So let's do as the SCOTUS thinks is advisable: let's have more and more free speech so the whole nation can see how an entire media empire is anchored by racist excusers, how "honorable" legislators phumpher trying to condemn and not condemn the violent and non-violent haters among us. The most pathetic thing is the large number of "God-fearing" citizens who just don't understand any of what the fuss is all about.
The rest of us claim an equal right to call them out as the overt or subtle or covert racists that they are. We call it free speech too, honey. So let's do as the SCOTUS thinks is advisable: let's have more and more free speech so the whole nation can see how an entire media empire is anchored by racist excusers, how "honorable" legislators phumpher trying to condemn and not condemn the violent and non-violent haters among us. The most pathetic thing is the large number of "God-fearing" citizens who just don't understand any of what the fuss is all about.
It takes a few minutes but once you read the South Carolina secession document (see http://avalon.law.yale.edu/19th_century/csa_scarsec.asp) you realize that the Confederate flag is nothing more than a symbol of slavery and oppression. Having read the document that symbol is quite revolting. It must go.
54
South Carolina used slavery as a technical reason to secede because actions of the North towards slavery were unconstitutional. It was an economic decision because slaves were property under the Constitution. The South, at that time, provided 75% of the wealth of the United Sates and that is why Lincoln started the war, to 'preserve the Union' (for Northern business interests). Sloppy historians use slavery as the issue for the war, when it was really about keeping Southern wealth in the Union.
Excellent citation, that (delete the closing paren). How many times have we been told that "it wasn't about slavery?" By their own words they convict themselves: it was all about slavery.
http://avalon.law.yale.edu/19th_century/csa_scarsec.asp
The South Carolina secession document; absolutely mind-boggling. Thank you Michael. Link didn't work, but cutting and pasting did. You are quite right; this provides a powerful argument for banishing the flag.
The South Carolina secession document; absolutely mind-boggling. Thank you Michael. Link didn't work, but cutting and pasting did. You are quite right; this provides a powerful argument for banishing the flag.
3
This flag business is a side-show to the h8 money train. Let's wait and see.
3
How would the world react if a German state flew the Nazi flag in front of a government building? Would Germans tolerate a public display of such a symbol of hatred, oppression, genocide and barbarism? Would the rest of the world accept it? And how is the Confederate flag different?
134
The only appropriate flag for the south, would be a white surrender flag.
If the USA changes its flag, it would have to be the Rainbow flag.
If the USA changes its flag, it would have to be the Rainbow flag.
31
"Those who have defended keeping the Confederate flag flying at the Capitol have often described it as merely a commemoration to the Civil War dead. "
Should we be commemorating the war dead for a traitorous cause? Jefferson Davis and the other confederates (including the "hero" Robert E Lee) were traitors. And, they were traitors for a cause based on owning other human beings as property. If there had not been widespread slavery in the south there never would have been a civil war. I don't see why the confederacy, its war dead or its generals or Jefferson Davis should be honored for anything. Do Germans fly Nazi flags to honor their war dead?
Should we be commemorating the war dead for a traitorous cause? Jefferson Davis and the other confederates (including the "hero" Robert E Lee) were traitors. And, they were traitors for a cause based on owning other human beings as property. If there had not been widespread slavery in the south there never would have been a civil war. I don't see why the confederacy, its war dead or its generals or Jefferson Davis should be honored for anything. Do Germans fly Nazi flags to honor their war dead?
57
Those families, in their grace and strength, did more to convince people of the pain associated with that flag than all the others with their sweeping charges of "racism" and derisive comments about republicans, southerners, etc.
The contrast between the dignified families and their supposed supporters is stark. A lot can be learned from those families.
Congratulations to Governor Haley for supporting them. Let South Carolina become a model for the country.
The contrast between the dignified families and their supposed supporters is stark. A lot can be learned from those families.
Congratulations to Governor Haley for supporting them. Let South Carolina become a model for the country.
11
@AACNY: In other words "It's all Obama's fault."
20
Whatever are you talking about, stu? Read again, please.
Try taking a page from the book of those who know how to make their case without disparaging their state or its residents in the process. Their dignity makes all the critics (their supposed supporters) look bad and shows why that support is not very effective.
Try taking a page from the book of those who know how to make their case without disparaging their state or its residents in the process. Their dignity makes all the critics (their supposed supporters) look bad and shows why that support is not very effective.
5
@AACNY: I think I've read enough of your posts by now to be able to suss out the actual point you're making. It never is the fault of Republicans, regardless of who runs the state in which an event like this plays out or what sort of political decisions are made that provoke such incidents. You brought up the "derisive comments about Republicans." I'm answering in kind.
19
Not only does the Confederate flag need to come down, but the GOP's race-baiting "southern strategy" needs to end - lest we see more of these type incidents in the future.
If you can't successfully govern while employing your party's principles, then maybe you have no business being in power in the first place.
If you can't successfully govern while employing your party's principles, then maybe you have no business being in power in the first place.
71
So Nikki Haley and her ilk will concede on flag control so that they don't have to give on gun control. Well played.
45
Very perceptive comment, Steve Hagen. Distracting our attention from gun violence is precisely what yielding on the flag issue is all about. Haley and other Republican officeholders cannot afford to have fence-straddling voters view them as fellow travelers with gun-toting racists.
6
German cemeteries containing German soldiers from WW2 don't fly the Nazi flag. The Confederate dead lay in peace, and we can provide them with due dignity absent the ensign of the lost war for free labor.
70
I'll take the small steps over no steps. Glad the flags are coming down from the state buildings. Now, remove from everywhere. It needs to be seen by ALL as a blight...will likely take another generation or two.
21
Agreed the Confederate flag should not fly over government buildings, except those on national parks, cemeteries, and battlefields where it marks spaces denoting Confederate places of burials, lines held, or victories won. That much of history needs to be preserved.
Individuals or individual businesses who wish to fly it should have the personal right to do so. Along with other loyalties the Stars and Bars also stood for states rights and limitations on the power and grasp of the Federal Government. Those remain values worth remembering.
Individuals or individual businesses who wish to fly it should have the personal right to do so. Along with other loyalties the Stars and Bars also stood for states rights and limitations on the power and grasp of the Federal Government. Those remain values worth remembering.
1
as the swastika is in Germany
5
Haley is providing cover for all of the Republican Presidential hopefuls by getting rid of this racist symbol sparing the candidates from the fall-out of this issue.
41
She has two choices:
1. Do this symbolic act, or
2. Prove for all time that Republicans are in your face bigots.
Only a complete idiot would deliberately choose option 2 as a public act.
(I am not convinced of the sincerity of Gov Haley; she was backed into a corner by Dylann Roof.)
1. Do this symbolic act, or
2. Prove for all time that Republicans are in your face bigots.
Only a complete idiot would deliberately choose option 2 as a public act.
(I am not convinced of the sincerity of Gov Haley; she was backed into a corner by Dylann Roof.)
8
I've read in a number places that this isn't the time for the conversation. So how vile an act has to happen before it's okay to have this conversation? A group has been targeted with alarming frequency, over hundreds of years, and with a depth of loathing, hatred, fear, hostility, (add your word here) that is beyond comprehension.
38
No, what's been said is that the flag discussion should wait until after the funerals. Just basic decency and respect.
3
I understand your point however I fear that when the dust settles will there still be the drive to have that discussion or will it get bogged down like so many other missed opportunities? I have no doubt that some of the folks saying it's not time for the conversation mean now and forever.
5
AACNY, I disagree. Perhaps the single most powerful show of decency and respect for the victims of this racist act of terror that NC could show would be the permanent removal of the confederate flag, a symbol of racial hatred and oppression, from all government institutions.
Followed shortly thereafter by enactment of laws to prevent guns from falling into the hands of potentially violent racists, political extremists
Followed shortly thereafter by enactment of laws to prevent guns from falling into the hands of potentially violent racists, political extremists
12
Whatever the flag was a symbol of in the days of the Confederacy it's been usurped as a symbol of hatred and "white power". It doesn't need to be flown under the auspices of governments that are supposed to represent all the people.
Take it down!
Take it down!
30
A good start. But you you cannot respond adequately to the Dylann Roofs of the world with education, mental health care, angry denunciations, rational arguments, jails and Confederate flag-lowerings alone. Humor, ridicule and making these guys look like the ridiculous fools they are need to be a big part of the mix. The media generally and Saturday Night Live specifically should give this a try.
25
Unfortunately, the greatest predictor of another event seems to be the last one. The media sensation. The carnage. The killer's fame. All these almost guarantee it will happen again.
Were there to be a complete media blackout at least about the killer, his identity and details never to be known, perhaps this might deter sick individuals.
Were there to be a complete media blackout at least about the killer, his identity and details never to be known, perhaps this might deter sick individuals.
5
An author I once read suggested that the media turn their focus away from the glorification of these types of crimes; for example, show the perpetrator face-down in the gutter, handcuffed, with a policeman's foot on his back. That, he thought, might help decrease the "glamour" of such a crime and possibly deter copycats. Makes sense to me.
1
So, you think if everybody would just shut up about it racism and killing based on hatred would all go away? Reality, sadly, teaches a different lesson: what you run away from finds you around every corner and destroys your family and your nation. Silence didn't work very well in preventing child molesters in church, what makes you think that ignoring racism will work any better?
This is a brave act by a Republican governor to undo two centuries of Democrat party racism.
The Confederate flag was placed in the SC locations by the Democrats. That flag used to fly over the South Carolina Statehouse in Columbia. It was put there by then Gov. Fritz Hollings, a Democrat.
In 1987, when Hillary's husband was governor of Arkansas, Bill Clinton signed Act 116 that stated “The blue star above the word “ARKANSAS” is to commemorate the Confederate States of America.” And this is what the Dems offer as presidential material?
It's time for the Democrats to come to grips with the party's racist origins, and make a formal apology to the nation.
The Confederate flag was placed in the SC locations by the Democrats. That flag used to fly over the South Carolina Statehouse in Columbia. It was put there by then Gov. Fritz Hollings, a Democrat.
In 1987, when Hillary's husband was governor of Arkansas, Bill Clinton signed Act 116 that stated “The blue star above the word “ARKANSAS” is to commemorate the Confederate States of America.” And this is what the Dems offer as presidential material?
It's time for the Democrats to come to grips with the party's racist origins, and make a formal apology to the nation.
5
Right wingers certainly live in a fantasy land, they love stories, but can't stand the truth.
fwa
fwa
5
Mickey:
1987 was 28 years ago. Ya think, in 28 years, maybe somebody might change a position or two? Have YOU not changes ANY of your positions in 28 years? (Tell the truth.)
1987 was 28 years ago. Ya think, in 28 years, maybe somebody might change a position or two? Have YOU not changes ANY of your positions in 28 years? (Tell the truth.)
5
Is this some kind of joke? You do know, don't you, that the Democratic Party of today little resembles the Democratic Party of the distant past, and the same could be said of the GOP? The two have flipped in orientation.
15
They're acting like the flag killed those poor people & nobody is saying a word about guns...
36
Exactly. The Confederate Flag, even in the State where the first shot of the Civil War was fired, did not commit murder in the Charleston church. Whether or not the message one takes from that flag is one of racism takes away from he fact that most of the Southern troops were not slaveholders and did not, necessarily, die for slavery but for some idea of freedom, whether we now think it misguided or not. Racism is not peculiar to the South, slavery was practiced in the North and emancipation in New York wasn't until 1827. Slavery is not peculiar to the United States and prejudice knows no geography. What is peculiar to the United States, the world's self-proclaimed beacon of freedom is guns and prejudice and weaponry have, as is amply demonstrated, one end: violence.
10
Hate killed those people. Plenty is being said.
14
You have plugs in your years. The Confederate flag and guns go hand in hand. It is an insult to decency and integrity of American people , their patriotism and even national security.
2
This exact quote: ”The State House is different, and the events of this past week call upon us to look at this in a different way.” appropriately includes a backward open quotation mark.
What the Governor was inferring, by, "the State House is different," is, as she stated; that it's still fine and dandy to fly that flag on your own property. She hands the racists an out on a silver platter, a completely unnecessary kowtow.
This paper makes her out to be a forward thinking politician of progressive ideals, when in fact she is just a panderer, in this case to both sides.
What the Governor was inferring, by, "the State House is different," is, as she stated; that it's still fine and dandy to fly that flag on your own property. She hands the racists an out on a silver platter, a completely unnecessary kowtow.
This paper makes her out to be a forward thinking politician of progressive ideals, when in fact she is just a panderer, in this case to both sides.
132
There is something called free speech. Or did you wish to end that as well?
3
I agree. I thought her statement was pretty loaded and not really that great
1
I can see that reason is not your strong suit!
We cannot continue to ask black people to serve in the military while the Confederate flag flies over public space anywhere in the U.S..
149
Could you possibly grasp at a more PC straw? FYI we have an enlistee military most people join for their own gain.
3
Have you ever seen the war memorial in Lynchburg, Virginia? You walk up steps and see the names of the dead from Lynchburg, from each of the wars, I think going back as far as the Revolutionary War. When you get to World War I, the names of the "colored" dead are listed separate from those of the "white" dead.
What a patriotic thing to have enshrined in stone.
What a patriotic thing to have enshrined in stone.
8
@ CK -- We nevertheless ask and invite blacks to join the military all the time; and many people, possibly including yourself, would bitterly resent it if they suddenly refused to join the military in representative numbers on account of the Confederate flags.
4
Governor Haley is hardly a profile in courage. Instead of confronting the NRA and the very real public safety issues of gun violence, she uses a sad old flag for cover and states the obvious. How soon will it be before she's again posing with a firearm for the cameras?
110
Hardly. But maybe relative to the rest of the cowardly politicians we seem happy to elect, she's a breath of fresh air.
1
Let's be clear about this. This is pretty simple history.
The Confederate flag was the flag flown by enemies of the United States, people who started a war against the United States, killed countless young Americans and invaded this country. On top of that, these people actually renounced their citizenship and seceded from the Union because they refused to abide by the democratic process. Oh yes and they were fighting for their 'right' to keep black people enslaved.
And nowadays we're debating if the government should fly this flag? Come again ?
The Confederate flag was the flag flown by enemies of the United States, people who started a war against the United States, killed countless young Americans and invaded this country. On top of that, these people actually renounced their citizenship and seceded from the Union because they refused to abide by the democratic process. Oh yes and they were fighting for their 'right' to keep black people enslaved.
And nowadays we're debating if the government should fly this flag? Come again ?
472
If you really take this position you don't understand the nuances of how and why people behave. You could make the state argument with respect to the Colonists and the Crown.
2
You have it backward. Treason would be trying to overthrow the US Federal Government. The South intended no such thing, they wanted to govern themselves, only.
The South considered the Federal government the treasonous party. They argued that the Union was voluntary, and they had a good point. And for the record the governor stated people are free to fly that flag on private property and I am sure that sales are going up as I write.
The South considered the Federal government the treasonous party. They argued that the Union was voluntary, and they had a good point. And for the record the governor stated people are free to fly that flag on private property and I am sure that sales are going up as I write.
My email to Nikki Haley and to my children:
"Well for the record and for all time, the following are my thoughts to which no one is bound. They are my thoughts and I will be happy to defend them if ever challenged.
Nikki Hailey, Governor, South Carolina,
"I am ashamed of your call to strike the colors and I pray that your call will fail. Why?
For the reason that this little ole Quaker who has enjoyed a life spent in the call for and the promotion of racial equality tells you that the messages I send - I SEND - when I consider the Confederate Battle Flag and Confederate Memorial Statues - is a message that I honor my ancestors who sacrificed life and fortune in defense of their families, their homes and their state.
It is mind boggling that those who died in defense of South Carolina should be treated so shabbily by your office.
Kindly read Robert Penn Warren's "The Legacy of the Civil War."
Consider that of the nearly 100 years as a nation that codified slavery, only five years of that slavery existed under the Stars and Bars. Would you strike Old Glory? Shame on you, shame on you and shame on you.
"Well for the record and for all time, the following are my thoughts to which no one is bound. They are my thoughts and I will be happy to defend them if ever challenged.
Nikki Hailey, Governor, South Carolina,
"I am ashamed of your call to strike the colors and I pray that your call will fail. Why?
For the reason that this little ole Quaker who has enjoyed a life spent in the call for and the promotion of racial equality tells you that the messages I send - I SEND - when I consider the Confederate Battle Flag and Confederate Memorial Statues - is a message that I honor my ancestors who sacrificed life and fortune in defense of their families, their homes and their state.
It is mind boggling that those who died in defense of South Carolina should be treated so shabbily by your office.
Kindly read Robert Penn Warren's "The Legacy of the Civil War."
Consider that of the nearly 100 years as a nation that codified slavery, only five years of that slavery existed under the Stars and Bars. Would you strike Old Glory? Shame on you, shame on you and shame on you.
Removing the flag would show that all the people of South Carolina from all ethnic backgrounds are welcome. It would be another step away from that State's ugly past of slavery and institutionalized racism. I want Dylan Roof to see that flag come down and realize that he completely failed to divide this country are start a race war. I hope that the souls of those he murdered have peace knowing that their sacrifice brought an end to this disgraceful chapter in South Carolina's past.
It is another step to help our country unite for justice and peace!
It is another step to help our country unite for justice and peace!
61
The Flying of the Confederate flag is treasonous. It represents those who advocated, and rebelled against, and would rebel again against the United States and it's constitution. Just like the ISIS flag. It should be banned everywhere.
213
You may not have read anything about that war. Some very intelligent men in Southern governments made very credible arguments that the Union was a voluntary thing and states should be able to leave it. They had a great point. Lincoln got 800,000 Americans killed, for what? We could have just as well let them secede.
So we are going to scrap the First Amendment? Any other parts of the Constitution you want to discard in the course of defending it?
The Northern plutocrats did not fight the Civil War to free the blacks -- Lincoln in fact said he would let slavery continue if the Union was restored. And a number of Northern fortunes were made transporting blacks from Africa to the South.
The North fought the War to grab the Pocahontas coal fields of Virginia -- the Saudi Oil Fields of their day. Essential for the Industrial Revolution , for the US Navy and for the Royal Navy. Which is why they split off that part of Virgina to form the new state of West Virginia -- an act expressly prohibited by the sacred Constitution they allegedly were defending. The extremely wealthy financier of the Abolitionist Movement had a son-in-law who made a massive fortune in West Virginia coal mining after the war -- and tried to enslave the miners with the company town feudal system while so it. Railroad magnates renowned for owning the corrupt Congress collected rent for a 100 years carrying coal to a small fishing village called Norfolk Virginia.
The Northern plutocrats did not fight the Civil War to free the blacks -- Lincoln in fact said he would let slavery continue if the Union was restored. And a number of Northern fortunes were made transporting blacks from Africa to the South.
The North fought the War to grab the Pocahontas coal fields of Virginia -- the Saudi Oil Fields of their day. Essential for the Industrial Revolution , for the US Navy and for the Royal Navy. Which is why they split off that part of Virgina to form the new state of West Virginia -- an act expressly prohibited by the sacred Constitution they allegedly were defending. The extremely wealthy financier of the Abolitionist Movement had a son-in-law who made a massive fortune in West Virginia coal mining after the war -- and tried to enslave the miners with the company town feudal system while so it. Railroad magnates renowned for owning the corrupt Congress collected rent for a 100 years carrying coal to a small fishing village called Norfolk Virginia.
2
Regardless of the reasons they did it, the Southern states seceded/broke away/declared independence from the United States. If that's "treason," well, I'm sure the British considered it "treasonous" for thirteen of its colonies to declare their independence as well. How can you be against self-determination and independence?
1
Well, pardon me if I don't jump up out my chair and join arms with South Carolina Republican Governor Nikki Haley and South Carolina Republican Representative Doug Brannon singing kumbaya, just because they have decided that it's time the Confederate battleflag be removed from the State Capitol grounds.
In 2011 Haley and Brannon, along with other South Carolina lawmakers, were responsible for tightening the state's already restrictive voter ID requirements. Act R54, according to the South Carolina ACLU, "impedes access to the polls and is at odds with the fundamental right to vote."
While I agree that the Confederate flag is a rallying banner for racists in this country, ending its display by the State of South Carolina will be have no consequences when it comes to turning back the state-sanctioned discrimination that Haley and Brannon have been party to by restricting the ability of African-Americans to vote.
Enough with tilting at flags. Banishing the Confederate flag is great theater. It's also good cover for not doing the real anti-racism work that has to be done, which is rescinding misguided voter ID laws.
In 2011 Haley and Brannon, along with other South Carolina lawmakers, were responsible for tightening the state's already restrictive voter ID requirements. Act R54, according to the South Carolina ACLU, "impedes access to the polls and is at odds with the fundamental right to vote."
While I agree that the Confederate flag is a rallying banner for racists in this country, ending its display by the State of South Carolina will be have no consequences when it comes to turning back the state-sanctioned discrimination that Haley and Brannon have been party to by restricting the ability of African-Americans to vote.
Enough with tilting at flags. Banishing the Confederate flag is great theater. It's also good cover for not doing the real anti-racism work that has to be done, which is rescinding misguided voter ID laws.
373
Thank you, Marc. My thoughts exactly.
6
I agree 100%. You can also thank the Roberts SCOTUS for dismantling voting rights laws which gave the tacit green light for states to restrict voting rights in the 21st century. According to Roberts, there is no more racism in America so states that were racist before and restricted voting rights were magically reformed. 5 members of the SCOTUS are totally clueless and they answer to no one on top of having a job for life.
3
The Confederate flag is a symbol of Southern culture, a culture that was willing to fight a war against their fellow Americans to defend the indefensible in the name of State's Rights.
Sometimes people forget that State's Rights does not give one the right to do wrong.
Sometimes people forget that State's Rights does not give one the right to do wrong.
92
I do think you need to be very careful and more thoughtful when summing up Southern culture - the flag is not a widespread nor common element in every community or state. This should not be a Southern bashing exercise but instead a call to accountability to the politicians whom have supported the flying of this flag - and groups that use it as a racist symbol. I am 100% Southern and have no feelings nor cultural ties, even remotely, related to this flag. No one in my family has ever flown it. It is as foreign to me as to someone from Boston or Berkeley.
The South is also fairly different state to state, city to city, family to family - even though, as of late, we seem to get lumped into one very negative category. Most do say y'all, men do open doors for women and we do respect our Moms but, as in the entire world, there is not a single Southern culture and there are many good things we do hold.
This flag is part of a political movement - not part of our culture. The life stories of the 9 whom were slaughtered and their families have provided the world one of the most inspirational and valuable cultural images of the South. This should not be discounted or downplayed.
The South is also fairly different state to state, city to city, family to family - even though, as of late, we seem to get lumped into one very negative category. Most do say y'all, men do open doors for women and we do respect our Moms but, as in the entire world, there is not a single Southern culture and there are many good things we do hold.
This flag is part of a political movement - not part of our culture. The life stories of the 9 whom were slaughtered and their families have provided the world one of the most inspirational and valuable cultural images of the South. This should not be discounted or downplayed.
1
The Confederate flag is triumphant cry of the sore loser.
50
You should emphasize" LOSER "....they were then, they still are TODAY.
3
Take down that flag? You want to bet?
The bigots an't giving up yet.
T'would be nice to see,
Shame, humility,
But I think their reply is "stet".
The bigots an't giving up yet.
T'would be nice to see,
Shame, humility,
But I think their reply is "stet".
35
Mayor Riley has long been one of the best mayors in the country, and a voice of sanity is welcome. Governor Haley is late to the party. She resisted this obvious move as long as she could. Only 20% of Americans think that the Confederate flag should be flown. A flag that waved for only four years in South Carolina should never have been give pride of place when colony was founded some 350 years ago and the Palmetto flag has been around since 1775. A four-year flag of treason, slavery, racism, and white supremacy should not be part of any state's heritage if they are part of the United States of America.
Republican politician arguments that it is a state's rights issue are exactly right, insofar as that was the revisionist history concept of the Civil War - the right to own slaves. This cause of the war is seen in the cornerstone speech of Confederate Vice President Alexander Stephens and in the Second Inaugural Address of President Lincoln. It may be seen in any white supremacist gathering and held by the killer of the nine beautiful souls in a Charleston church.
And every South Carolinian should hold each politician responsible for the way they stand on this issue. Every citizen of South Carolina should search their hearts about displaying a symbol of hatred that brings pain to more than 1/4 of their fellow citizens who are black and to many others.
Republican politician arguments that it is a state's rights issue are exactly right, insofar as that was the revisionist history concept of the Civil War - the right to own slaves. This cause of the war is seen in the cornerstone speech of Confederate Vice President Alexander Stephens and in the Second Inaugural Address of President Lincoln. It may be seen in any white supremacist gathering and held by the killer of the nine beautiful souls in a Charleston church.
And every South Carolinian should hold each politician responsible for the way they stand on this issue. Every citizen of South Carolina should search their hearts about displaying a symbol of hatred that brings pain to more than 1/4 of their fellow citizens who are black and to many others.
187
Every word you write about the Confederate flag is true, SMB, and you make the case well. More important than the flag, however, is the need for accountability by the politicians who have ridden the waves of racial bigotry to election year after year in the Deep South. Lately that trend has spread well north and west of the old Confederacy. The fact is, whether they like to hear it or not, most of those politicians are Republicans.
15
The Confederate flag is a symbol of repression, of intimidation of profound racial injustice and this flag has no place on a public building in the United States.
254
The Confederate battle flag is a much abused symbol. That abuse has come from the left and right, black and white. Much of that abuse has come at the hands of hateful and ignorant people on both sides of the issue. The ignorance of many who clamor for its removal is nearly as epic as the hatred of those who use it as a symbol of racism. It is now inextricably connected to that abuse, hatred and ignorance. In that regard I am a South Carolinian who now agrees with its removal in the name of unity and reconciliation.
It is worth noting, however, for those who buy into what Robert Penn Warren called the Treasury of Virtue in regard to the North's self righteous and deeply flawed version of Civil War history, that slavery was codified, maintained and supported under the Stars and Stripes before and for far longer than under the Stars and Bars. When shall we take down Old Glory?
It is worth noting, however, for those who buy into what Robert Penn Warren called the Treasury of Virtue in regard to the North's self righteous and deeply flawed version of Civil War history, that slavery was codified, maintained and supported under the Stars and Stripes before and for far longer than under the Stars and Bars. When shall we take down Old Glory?
13
Good point. And what of when the next racist killer flies the stars and stripes?
1
George Barron - Thank you sir. May I borrow your thoughts? You speak my mind.
1
George Barron, that's an absurd suggestion. There was slavery in the north. There was slavery in the Caribbean and South America. Even some of the original Americans, who we call Indians, owned slaves in later years. England was a leader in the slave trade with ships plying the deadly "middle passage" between Africa and the Americas where an estimated 1 million died.
It is true that many in the northern states look down on the south as the last bastion of ignorance and unbridled racism without considering their own sins. However, we should never look back on history and imagine that the men and women who lived hundreds of years ago should have been perfect, nor should we expect that they should have risen completely above their times. There would not have been a nation called America had the southern states not been allowed to have slaves. They would not have joined. At the time the Constitution was written, slavey was an accepted fact. There could have been no union without it.
As for any "deeply flawed version of history", it is primarily those in the southern states who have insisted that the Civil War was a noble struggle over ideals, not a grubby battle to the death over wealth as embodied in slave holding. I have studied Civil War history all my life. My ancestors fought on the southern side and the only nobility, however misguided, I can find is the willingness of people to die for what they believed was right. I am not sure this makes for a noble death.
It is true that many in the northern states look down on the south as the last bastion of ignorance and unbridled racism without considering their own sins. However, we should never look back on history and imagine that the men and women who lived hundreds of years ago should have been perfect, nor should we expect that they should have risen completely above their times. There would not have been a nation called America had the southern states not been allowed to have slaves. They would not have joined. At the time the Constitution was written, slavey was an accepted fact. There could have been no union without it.
As for any "deeply flawed version of history", it is primarily those in the southern states who have insisted that the Civil War was a noble struggle over ideals, not a grubby battle to the death over wealth as embodied in slave holding. I have studied Civil War history all my life. My ancestors fought on the southern side and the only nobility, however misguided, I can find is the willingness of people to die for what they believed was right. I am not sure this makes for a noble death.
23
"...The flag was quietly moved up to a position of pride on the dome on the Capitol in 1962, after President John F. Kennedy called on Congress to end poll taxes and literacy tests..."
What more needs to be told?
What more needs to be told?
246
@William Dufort
You are so right! That is why I never understood the "respect history" argument. It was raised in direct response to Civil Rights Legislation.
You are so right! That is why I never understood the "respect history" argument. It was raised in direct response to Civil Rights Legislation.
29
This is a lie that was told in 2000 and as well as today. The SC archives were searched for some link to the flag and civil rights. Not there.
@SteveAllen - choosing to ignore facts does not mean they don't exist.
4
Several years ago I lamented the media adopting red and blue as shorthand for the division of the states. This is so reminiscent of the grey and the blue of the Civil War. These colors represent division in this country which the confederate flag symbolizes. We must soften the razor hard lines of division that exist today.
13
Division is real, making believe it is not is unreal. I'd prefer elements like racists be as separated symbolically from me as possible, including color schemes.
8
I think it's funny (amusing) that red was chosen for the Republicans, those who were obsessed with the "Red Menace." At least we don't hear about Pinkos anymore.
13
It is beyond ridiculous that some Southerners hang on to this horrible symbol as some kind of emblem of their heritage. It just makes the people who defend it look ignorant, racist and frankly, rather pathetic. The flag is a symbol of race and hatred. It is the symbol of a defeated arrogant and unequal nation, that was defeated for good reason, over 150 years ago. It is past time for state governments - and really everyone - to stop displaying it. It was past time long before those poor souls were murdered in Charleston. Enough, already. Take the confederate flags down.
137
The Confederate flag is a symbol of treason.
All US schools, from K-college need to reinforce that. The number of Americans who revere a symbol of hate should have dwindled down to marginal proportions by now. It hasn't.
Why is that?
Politicians, until today, contorted their statements so as not to offend voters who still support symbols of the confederacy. Voters should be reminded of those who engaged in that behavior between now and the 2016 election.
We need to stop electing politicians who are willing to make amoral compromises. We are in the situation we are in today because of them.
The confederate flag is not a part of who we are. The Charleston Massacre was perpetrated by a South Carolinian white supremacist.
It is well-past time we began to deal with racism and white supremacy. The FBI and NSA should be busy rooting out the hundreds of hate groups. People hate more easily when they don't know. The Department of Education should be busy rolling out a historical curriculum for all states to model theirs after.
Let us hope that from today forward no politician will find it viable to defend that flag. Let's hope Gov. Haley had a bonfire in mind when she was talking about that flag's disposal.
All US schools, from K-college need to reinforce that. The number of Americans who revere a symbol of hate should have dwindled down to marginal proportions by now. It hasn't.
Why is that?
Politicians, until today, contorted their statements so as not to offend voters who still support symbols of the confederacy. Voters should be reminded of those who engaged in that behavior between now and the 2016 election.
We need to stop electing politicians who are willing to make amoral compromises. We are in the situation we are in today because of them.
The confederate flag is not a part of who we are. The Charleston Massacre was perpetrated by a South Carolinian white supremacist.
It is well-past time we began to deal with racism and white supremacy. The FBI and NSA should be busy rooting out the hundreds of hate groups. People hate more easily when they don't know. The Department of Education should be busy rolling out a historical curriculum for all states to model theirs after.
Let us hope that from today forward no politician will find it viable to defend that flag. Let's hope Gov. Haley had a bonfire in mind when she was talking about that flag's disposal.
136
A reminder of GOP officials' reactions at the news of the massacre last week, including Senator Graham:
http://www.rimaregas.com/2015/06/charleston-shooter-is-a-whitesupremacis...
http://www.rimaregas.com/2015/06/charleston-shooter-is-a-whitesupremacis...
13
@Rima Regas
A reminder that the Governors of South Carolina who put up that flag were democrats:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Governors_of_South_Carolina
And that Gov Nikki Haley is a woman and of Indian Ancestry, which is worth mentioning, too.
A reminder that the Governors of South Carolina who put up that flag were democrats:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Governors_of_South_Carolina
And that Gov Nikki Haley is a woman and of Indian Ancestry, which is worth mentioning, too.
3
Surgres,
Yes, they were Democrats before Democrats and Republicans flipped. Anyone who knows any American history is aware of the switch. So?
The parties are what they are now. That is what is pertinent to the discussion today.
Yes, they were Democrats before Democrats and Republicans flipped. Anyone who knows any American history is aware of the switch. So?
The parties are what they are now. That is what is pertinent to the discussion today.
38