Maybe drone operators should be chosen from within the prison system, where the military could probably identify sociopaths who can kill without any emotional baggage, and who are already incarcerated and have time on their hands. Plus they don't have to pick up milk & eggs on the way home.
2
The stress angle? Everyone has their stressors. Traffic, bills, angry insurgents trying to kidnap or kill you...I think the stress here centers on an abject lack of job satisfaction.
It's an all volunteer force. If you like flying aircraft from the cockpit, and you get ordered to RPA duty, you can leave.
It's an all volunteer force. If you like flying aircraft from the cockpit, and you get ordered to RPA duty, you can leave.
After a career of working 12 - 14 hour days 7-days a week in a 120deg F work space operating a nuclear propulsion plant on 7 to 9 month overseas deployments, I am feeling neither sympathy nor empathy for drone operators. After my "shift" I couldn't go home and turn on the tube and watch a mindless TV show while sucking on a barley pop or go shoot pool at the club. Better off that they leave.
I see the article mentioned all the "stresses" that these "pilots" are subject to. How about the stresses of the civilian populations who have to live--often constantly--under the threat of instant annihilation due to "occasional civilian casualties"? (How occasional? How many casualties? Who cares? We don't live there! That's Top Secret information anyway!) In my book: these "operators" are just following the orders of a Commander-in-Chief who is committing a war crime by issuing the order in the first place. In addition: this is making us no friends in Jihadi land and this program creates thousands more America haters than it kills. In sum, this drone program is an illegal stupidity of the highest order. Unfortunately, logic doesn't bother many Americans--especially our political leadership. Need another example? Just check out our Iraq (aka Back to the Future) war policy in todays headlines! Stupid is etc etc.
1
On this one I disagree. While any job carries stress, this one carries no more than most other military jobs and is not anywhere near as demanding as flying maned aircraft. The fact that the military will allow new enlistes (18 year olds, not officers) to do this should also tell you all you need to know. And there is no way in this world will a Lieutenant or Captain make four times the salary working for a contractor. The reason the military can't retain these people is because of the shift work and because it is mighty boring work 98% of the time.
In terms of military planning, training and doctrine, the Cold War was reasonably well organized and managed in comparison to the continuing shambles of the GWOT conducted with vastly fewer resources dispersed over as much or more space than during the CW. I seem to remember during the "planning" for the Iraq war the then chief of staff of the US Army saying something to the effect of be wary of accepting the 12 division mission with the 10 division force. Since then, the disparity between forces and endlessly ramified missions has become greater still.
Now the US is trying to turn into effective action that which it was only talking about during the US occupation of Iraq: fighting the "global" "enemy" (on the cheap) using indigenous forces "trained" and (if needs must) equipped by the US. That has rarely worked well over the last century of US involvement in local wars, and was, in my opinion, a complete bust in Iraq, the "final" peace having been achieved by putting the Sunni militias on the payroll. Their being taken off the payroll after we left essentially emulated the blunder made by the Coalition Provisional Authority when it fired the Iraqi army en masse at the beginning of the occupation. The Iraqi army have largely collapsed before numerically inferior insurgent forces since the US withdrawal.
The US should bail from the ME, build energy independence, infrastructure and jobs at home, and let Halliburton, et al chase local belligerents for their profits
Now the US is trying to turn into effective action that which it was only talking about during the US occupation of Iraq: fighting the "global" "enemy" (on the cheap) using indigenous forces "trained" and (if needs must) equipped by the US. That has rarely worked well over the last century of US involvement in local wars, and was, in my opinion, a complete bust in Iraq, the "final" peace having been achieved by putting the Sunni militias on the payroll. Their being taken off the payroll after we left essentially emulated the blunder made by the Coalition Provisional Authority when it fired the Iraqi army en masse at the beginning of the occupation. The Iraqi army have largely collapsed before numerically inferior insurgent forces since the US withdrawal.
The US should bail from the ME, build energy independence, infrastructure and jobs at home, and let Halliburton, et al chase local belligerents for their profits
4
The article suggests many follow up areas:
1. Is the situation really a management and cultural problem ?
2. Consciously or not is it the situation related to the continued emphasis on manned aircraft? I suspect some sneering from the 20th century pilots.
3. Does the AF recruit from the whole pool of potential candidates ? An example would be an operator in a wheelchair or someone who cannot complete the WWII era basic training but who is otherwise fit to serve.
4. What is the name of the General Officer who was directly in command when the decision was made to scale back ?
5. My opinion is that the source of the article was making a preemptive strike against potential charges of mismanagement.
1. Is the situation really a management and cultural problem ?
2. Consciously or not is it the situation related to the continued emphasis on manned aircraft? I suspect some sneering from the 20th century pilots.
3. Does the AF recruit from the whole pool of potential candidates ? An example would be an operator in a wheelchair or someone who cannot complete the WWII era basic training but who is otherwise fit to serve.
4. What is the name of the General Officer who was directly in command when the decision was made to scale back ?
5. My opinion is that the source of the article was making a preemptive strike against potential charges of mismanagement.
2
The new dynamic here for the Air Force is not war, but war from home. The AF must do what it needs to learn about this psychological problem. They should start by understanding the stress that 911 Operators. Their daily work of helping both citizens and officers in crisis... and then picking up a dozen eggs on their commute home would be a partial comparison. We ask them to drop their emotions in order to do the job, but they are going to feel the emotions at some point.
1
I cannot fathom why a highly trained PILOT who is trained to fly actual aircraft is needed to fly drones? It's like a neurosurgeon performing EMT duties. There is a vast pool of untapped potential "PILOTS" who have had their families and would be willing to support this program without the stress or guilt ......the AARP.......thousands upon thousands of retired with time on their hands, who'd be more than capable of manning the joystick of a drone.
2
At least half the problem is probably rotating shifts- when manning is low, the military starts scheduling people with no regards to sleep schedule. Frequent shift changes been scientifically proven to cause accidents and depression. Even when it doesn't get that far, lack of sleep degrades people's ability to deal with pretty much anything.
3
Killing in the name of causes for which we're not willing to risk our own lives--who are we?
4
I don't know who we are, but would you prefer that your son or daughter fly a manned aircraft into danger rather than a drone from the safety of the US?
The point of warfare is to kill the enemy until he submits to our will. HOW that is done is far less important than THAT it is done.
The point of warfare is to kill the enemy until he submits to our will. HOW that is done is far less important than THAT it is done.
2
If I multiply 65 sorties per day times 365 days per year I get 21,900 sorties per year. Divide that by the 1,200 pilots referenced in the article, and that is 19.8 sorties per pilot per year. One sortie every two and a half weeks. Maybe a sortie requires more than 1 pilot? Let's say it takes 3 -- that's still a little more than 1 per week on average. What am I missing?
2
And just how long does a sortie last? As long as the craft can stay airborne, maybe?
Fascinating article by Drew and Philipps. War's impact on the psyche is traumatic, but it was usually in combat with rounds overhead (hopefully overhead) or the threat of booby traps or IEDs. It would seem that sitting in Nevada would be kind of nice. But that's not the way the mind works, evidently.
It's striking the amount of time these servicemen have to spend at the controls, but it's war, and, as for combat, it's not a 9-5 job, with long conversation times over coffee. There's not much advantage to being in combat, unless one loves it, alá Patton, but it's enforced isolation from having to drive the kids to soccer makes mission focus that much more achievable. There was no Chardonnay at the end of the day.
Maybe an issue stateside is the cyclical nature of combat stress along with sitting home with family having a good time. Our police officers, EMTs and fire fighters have to deal with this phenomenon, so maybe there are lessons there.
But it looks like this MOS is here to stay. It's too valuable. So the next step is to address its stressful nature, as Drew and Philipps point out. Being in Nevada is certainly more advantageous for doing this than in combat regions.
It's starting to look like the services will have to recruit more people to conduct this activity with more shifts, unless they can solve it with increased automation. Pattern recognition is helpful, but I'm not sure we'd want an automated decision to kill.
It's striking the amount of time these servicemen have to spend at the controls, but it's war, and, as for combat, it's not a 9-5 job, with long conversation times over coffee. There's not much advantage to being in combat, unless one loves it, alá Patton, but it's enforced isolation from having to drive the kids to soccer makes mission focus that much more achievable. There was no Chardonnay at the end of the day.
Maybe an issue stateside is the cyclical nature of combat stress along with sitting home with family having a good time. Our police officers, EMTs and fire fighters have to deal with this phenomenon, so maybe there are lessons there.
But it looks like this MOS is here to stay. It's too valuable. So the next step is to address its stressful nature, as Drew and Philipps point out. Being in Nevada is certainly more advantageous for doing this than in combat regions.
It's starting to look like the services will have to recruit more people to conduct this activity with more shifts, unless they can solve it with increased automation. Pattern recognition is helpful, but I'm not sure we'd want an automated decision to kill.
That it's the military is just coincidental -- thus the 'stress' that comes with any job, not just this one. It might actually be more important to evaluate stress in other professions in this country, or those effects that cause people to pick up guns when they are NOT in the military!
You lost me here:
'that many feel “undermanned and overworked,” ... with little chance for academic breaks or promotion.'
It sounds like the drone pilots are leaving because they feel entitled to more than they get.
I am sure it is horrible to be killing people, then go home on time for dinner, 'hey honey, how was your day?' 'you know, the same, bombed a town, destroyed another country's infrastucture, etc, the usual, pass the potatoes?' - now this would definitely kill the person inside, enough to make him quit his job. This I see. And I really feel for the guys who have to face this every day.
But leaving because you feel you should get more? I do not think this is the real reason.
'that many feel “undermanned and overworked,” ... with little chance for academic breaks or promotion.'
It sounds like the drone pilots are leaving because they feel entitled to more than they get.
I am sure it is horrible to be killing people, then go home on time for dinner, 'hey honey, how was your day?' 'you know, the same, bombed a town, destroyed another country's infrastucture, etc, the usual, pass the potatoes?' - now this would definitely kill the person inside, enough to make him quit his job. This I see. And I really feel for the guys who have to face this every day.
But leaving because you feel you should get more? I do not think this is the real reason.
7
"The exodus from the drone program might be caused in part by the lure of the private sector, Mr. Tasin said, noting that military drone operators can earn four times their salary working for private defense contractors."
There it is. Wade through the emo-progressive nonsense and cut to the chase of why the program is losing people.
There it is. Wade through the emo-progressive nonsense and cut to the chase of why the program is losing people.
14
Perhaps, since these guys signed up to fly fighter jets and get stuck on war video game duty, they leave because they're embarrassed for themselves and for our country which resorts to this method of warfare?
3
Drone "pilots" don't come from the same pool as fighter pilots.
1
It is not really clear to me that DRONE PILOTS are in fact Combat Pilots trained by the Air Force in their very difficult Undergraduate Training Program, and then go on to Combat Flyiing units, where they typically perform EYES ON Combat strikes. Pehaps Drone Pilots are just former Ground Pounders who have a lot of experience in Video Gaming, - thus far removed from the Discipline and Regimentation it takes to actually participate in Hands On, Eyes On Combat Missions. I would suspect with ALL the Budget cuts to our Miltary Organizations these folks serving as Drone Pilots are more likened to just Gamers! Perhaps it would be better to title them Drone Directors rather than Pilots!
4
Maybe the US Air Force should have done a better job of planning in the pre-2005 operation days, to future needs.
Beyond that hindsight, maybe they should "open up" the drone control operator positions to become "Joint centers", adding Navy control operators!
There are numerous Navy "women's prisons" (barbed-wire fenced intelligence center compounds, manned dominantly now by women Intelligence Specialists) at naval air stations throughout the country, with little work to do each day......
open it up and train them to enter the program as was done with the IS rate when BG-109 Tomahawks cruise missiles were introduced to the Fleet.
Command short-sighted ness is clearly evident in Air Force planning...they still would rather think of themselves as "air warriors" flying F-16s and other fights in classic WW Two operations.....those days are gone, as will the A-10s if the Air Force got its way before Congress under NDAA FY-16 (which it did not get).
Beyond that hindsight, maybe they should "open up" the drone control operator positions to become "Joint centers", adding Navy control operators!
There are numerous Navy "women's prisons" (barbed-wire fenced intelligence center compounds, manned dominantly now by women Intelligence Specialists) at naval air stations throughout the country, with little work to do each day......
open it up and train them to enter the program as was done with the IS rate when BG-109 Tomahawks cruise missiles were introduced to the Fleet.
Command short-sighted ness is clearly evident in Air Force planning...they still would rather think of themselves as "air warriors" flying F-16s and other fights in classic WW Two operations.....those days are gone, as will the A-10s if the Air Force got its way before Congress under NDAA FY-16 (which it did not get).
4
".they still would rather think of themselves as "air warriors" flying F-16s and other fights in classic WW Two operations."
It is my understanding that in the Air Force you are a pilot or a nothing and that due to the 'fighter mafia" all top command billets go to ex-fighter pilots so promotion opportunities for drone "pilots" are very limited.
It is my understanding that in the Air Force you are a pilot or a nothing and that due to the 'fighter mafia" all top command billets go to ex-fighter pilots so promotion opportunities for drone "pilots" are very limited.
1
Contrary to the propaganda of Hollywood, a warrior is not a family man. Only psychopaths can endlessly kill without remorse. Eventually the day comes when you have to decide who you are.
11
Touche'.
The more the act of killing is anesthetized and separated from the trigger finger through technology, the easier it will become. I think lots of people 'kill without remorse' because they are killing without witnessing the killing.
The more the act of killing is anesthetized and separated from the trigger finger through technology, the easier it will become. I think lots of people 'kill without remorse' because they are killing without witnessing the killing.
The part about personnel leaving to hire on with war contractors is interesting. I cannot but help wondering whether that will eventually change as well. Could the corporate outsourcing mentality replace these folks with H1B visa recruits? So, if we get a GOP, CEO-type President from the corporate sector which routinely does outsourcing?
5
This piece does not say what actual hours are. Obviously flying can be a stressful job requiring constant attention wherever the pilot is. Actual flying hours of combat pilots are limited - how do those hours compare with those of drone pilots?
2
"Conscience is the inner voice that warns us somebody may be looking." ~ H.L. MENCKEN
It's the main cause of stress.
It's the main cause of stress.
3
Where to begin? As an AF pilot, this article is a little off. Is "stress" a factor in the terrible retention in the so-called "RPA" (remotely piloted aircraft) community? Absolutely. But not just because of the "war from a distance" that the media loves to point to.
The RPA career field is a career-ender, both for an active duty AF career and anyone who desires to fly for the airlines one day. It's a largely one-way trip for someone flying a manned aircraft. Getting back to a "real" airplane while remaining on active duty is rare, and will get even more difficult. Taking a "real", very expensively trained pilot and having them "fly" an RPA is akin to taking a graduate of medical school and making them work as a pharmacist at Walgreens. As a taxpayer, that's criminal.
The RPA's active duty bases are located in cesspools. Put these remote-control trailers in Hawaii, Chicago, Florida, Brooklyn, SoCal, Denver, etc (wherever people and their families actually want to live) and you'd get more "real" pilots to volunteer. Most pilots have zero desire to become a general, and not all want to fly for the airlines. Instead, the bases are in the middle of nowhere. Look them up, I'm sure you can find them on your google machine.
It's not just RPA pilots who are fleeing in droves- AF pilot retention is way down across the board. Terrible management, never-ending deployments and a massive increase in quality of life at the airlines... the AF is in trouble
The RPA career field is a career-ender, both for an active duty AF career and anyone who desires to fly for the airlines one day. It's a largely one-way trip for someone flying a manned aircraft. Getting back to a "real" airplane while remaining on active duty is rare, and will get even more difficult. Taking a "real", very expensively trained pilot and having them "fly" an RPA is akin to taking a graduate of medical school and making them work as a pharmacist at Walgreens. As a taxpayer, that's criminal.
The RPA's active duty bases are located in cesspools. Put these remote-control trailers in Hawaii, Chicago, Florida, Brooklyn, SoCal, Denver, etc (wherever people and their families actually want to live) and you'd get more "real" pilots to volunteer. Most pilots have zero desire to become a general, and not all want to fly for the airlines. Instead, the bases are in the middle of nowhere. Look them up, I'm sure you can find them on your google machine.
It's not just RPA pilots who are fleeing in droves- AF pilot retention is way down across the board. Terrible management, never-ending deployments and a massive increase in quality of life at the airlines... the AF is in trouble
37
So drone pilots won't get the big bucks jobs flying airliners, but there should be plenty of new opportunities for drone pilots in law enforcement, surveillance and even in the private sector delivering packages.
4
People aren't going to be paid very much for those jobs. The corporations are going to expect the bulk of the flying to be done by computers using GPS. Most of the "flying" jobs will be "monitoring" jobs and only being prepared to take over if something doesn't seem right. Which then will be a situation that'll be investigated and corrected so the computer controls will handle it in the future.
Humans won't tolerate (for now) being flown around by computers, but they'll have zero problem with their packages being delivered by computers. Eventually humans will end up being flown around by computers since some ground-based transit systems already work that way. However it's still a couple decades off at least solely due to the social acceptability.
Humans won't tolerate (for now) being flown around by computers, but they'll have zero problem with their packages being delivered by computers. Eventually humans will end up being flown around by computers since some ground-based transit systems already work that way. However it's still a couple decades off at least solely due to the social acceptability.
2
Wondered about the veracity of the portrayal of the burn out of a former military pilot, turned drone operator, in the recent film "Good Kill." According to this article, it must be fairly accurate. When I saw it the audience sat in silence for quite a while at the end.
2
If these drone pilots are experiencing PTSD and other stress related disorders, I wonder what the soldiers who participated in D-Day and other major events during WW II must have experienced. Some things do not seem to add up here.
1
They experienced the same things, as did Viet Nam and other war vets. We just didn't know what it was or how to deal with it. Also, WW2 vets had time to discuss it with their fellow soldiers, a kind of therapy, before they were sent home reintroduced into society.
3
jpduffy3 - they called it "battle fatigue" and "shell shock" back then, and its been documented prior to WWII, for instance in WWI.
Well...back to the drawing board.
The concept of treating drone pilots as merely 'better skilled' video-game operators and eschewing the care and benefits afforded aircraft pilots hasn't worked out. Wonder if they'll now try according the same care and benefits to drone pilots as accorded to aircraft pilots, ie, mandated crew-rest, R&R, pay, benefits, promotions...?
The concept of treating drone pilots as merely 'better skilled' video-game operators and eschewing the care and benefits afforded aircraft pilots hasn't worked out. Wonder if they'll now try according the same care and benefits to drone pilots as accorded to aircraft pilots, ie, mandated crew-rest, R&R, pay, benefits, promotions...?
Does it occur to anyone that these pilots learned habeous corpus in school, including all that stuff about the right to a speedy trial, judged by a jury of your peers, etc., and killing even the guilty without that is a heavy stressor?
3
Does it occur to you that habeas corpus is a contract between a person and their government, not between two soldiers on a distant battlefield?
3
It still is immoral on any scope to kill by remote control or by computer controlled devices which have zero accountablility to the Creator... Karma will catch up, just make sure you are ready for yours! I will not judge these folks for wanting to better themselves and protect their family, but come on really, one-sided death machines is straight cowardly way of fighting. It is slow GENOCIDE.
2
JRockitt, "one-sided death machines is straight cowardly way of fighting" Except for the technology how are drone operators any different from the artillery soldiers of the past who were positioned way behind the front lines firing their "one-sided death machines" Also I suggest you look up the definition of Genocide.
The button pushers and analysts are stressed, hey? Gee, can't have that. Such an easy way to kill, you'd think they would be high 5ing all over the place. Pity the drones can't tell the difference between the "suspected terrorist" and his family though. All these killings have done is probably created a tenfold rise in terrorists - ya reckon? I mean who created Islamic State when there was no such thing under Saddam Hussein? And one other small thing - it was Saudis who carried out the 9/11 Twin Towers. Sending any drones in that direction?
4
With all due respect to hyperbole, this sounds like a rather typical management problem. The VA faces it with doctors, private companies faces it with coders and software engineers, and other organizations face it with specialized skills. People come and people go. Well managed organizations have workforce plans to deal with such situations. The reduction in flights sounds not so great, but will require some prioritization while new staff are trained. Sorry, but I am not wringing my hands in anguish.
3
It's time for the Air Force (why not Navy and Marine pilots?) to start training Enlisted personnel for this job. It's just a video game, something teen couch potatoes can certain get into as well as World Of War and other games. The program would be a lot cheaper to operate. And stop the weekly rotating shifts.
While I was day worker for my military occupation I never understood how a person working a 2days, 2 mids, 2 nights with a double back and 80 hours off shift was efficient for the personnel who worked in the Communications Center. They had no lives and spent most of their time off sleeping. Surely a six month shift rotation would be better. It works for the Blue and Gold submarine crews.
While I was day worker for my military occupation I never understood how a person working a 2days, 2 mids, 2 nights with a double back and 80 hours off shift was efficient for the personnel who worked in the Communications Center. They had no lives and spent most of their time off sleeping. Surely a six month shift rotation would be better. It works for the Blue and Gold submarine crews.
7
So, real life closely follows the script of this year's movie Good Kill? I knew it was good (I rated it five out of five), but didn't realize this!
2
In the drone era the number of terrorists has vastly increased. See the RAND report last June. I've written letters about this. Never got one published.
4
Ban the drones from warfare neither facing you enemy or at the key board is immune to PTSD.
1
Here again is another example of why we need to get rid of republicans as elected officials. Over the year, with the aid of far to many financially conservative democrats, and far to many COWARDS who were so afraid that they would not be re-elected that they voted with the republicans we have a tax code that favors only the already wealthy, the corporations, and blatently ANTI-AMERICAN groups such as ALEC and the Koch brothers. The government has to sit down and go over the budget with a dammed microscope and CUT THE GARBAGE and WASTE of Hundreds of billions yearly, that allow specific tax breaks for wealthy indiduals and businesses. It needs to get rid of programs that are 15, 20, or 30 years past their prime, only no freaking Congressmen or Senator has the balls to say to his constituents that the program has shot it's load and needs to be closed down. Most of our elected officials care NOT about reality, their only care is to insure their reelection.
We can not afford to find and/or train sufficient drone operators for our needs. We can not build enough ships to make the Chinese understand that they can not take over the south china sea, We can't put enough force into Europe to convince Putin to stop doing what he is doing, and we have to put up with Iran becoming a domininte player in the middle east. We are out of our minds, and the stupid, idiotic, fundamental religious right wing is more to blame than most.
We can not afford to find and/or train sufficient drone operators for our needs. We can not build enough ships to make the Chinese understand that they can not take over the south china sea, We can't put enough force into Europe to convince Putin to stop doing what he is doing, and we have to put up with Iran becoming a domininte player in the middle east. We are out of our minds, and the stupid, idiotic, fundamental religious right wing is more to blame than most.
2
Let me guess, these pilots have been basically forced to work all hours because the military sees their job as sitting in a room playing video games all day, then they wonder why they burn out.
2
" ... While most of the pilots and camera operators feel comfortable killing ..."
Fascinating how killing can become some kind of a sport when your recruits are taken from the "right" part of society.
Then killing becomes some sort of video game as it simply happens a long way away and the soldiers will never ever have to face the bodies they produce.
How does that kind of global war differ from what other such nations as e.g. the 3. Reich or the USSR had in their minds?
Apart from the technology used?
Fascinating how killing can become some kind of a sport when your recruits are taken from the "right" part of society.
Then killing becomes some sort of video game as it simply happens a long way away and the soldiers will never ever have to face the bodies they produce.
How does that kind of global war differ from what other such nations as e.g. the 3. Reich or the USSR had in their minds?
Apart from the technology used?
2
I'm in awe of the cluelessness of these comments.
By the way, most Air Force pilots have no desire to be drone pilots (they want to fly real planes) and are involuntarily assigned to the mission while serving out long contracts. For all those so armchair Times readers so hyper-critical of these pilots (and comparing them to war criminals), do realize that the crux of this article is that many are voting with their feet.
By the way, most Air Force pilots have no desire to be drone pilots (they want to fly real planes) and are involuntarily assigned to the mission while serving out long contracts. For all those so armchair Times readers so hyper-critical of these pilots (and comparing them to war criminals), do realize that the crux of this article is that many are voting with their feet.
5
It is a hopeful sign for humanity that the US is having trouble finding operatives to remotely (from the other side of the world) murder people whom they have never met and actually know nothing about.
If they are suffering from psychological stress for doing this job, it is small beer compared to what the unfortunate victims suffer - because these operatives are, to put it simply, engaged in mass murder.
There is no point in saying the US government should be ashamed of their drones policy - they are beyond redemption!
If they are suffering from psychological stress for doing this job, it is small beer compared to what the unfortunate victims suffer - because these operatives are, to put it simply, engaged in mass murder.
There is no point in saying the US government should be ashamed of their drones policy - they are beyond redemption!
3
I'm sure that some Marine deployed for 6 months in the sandbox called Afghanistan would be happy to stop at Walmart on his/her way home to have dinner every night with the family.
Have those Air Force pilots deployed to the Middle East so they don't have a "hard time" transitioning.
p.s. I'm retired military.
Have those Air Force pilots deployed to the Middle East so they don't have a "hard time" transitioning.
p.s. I'm retired military.
2
What percentage of the drone pilots are female? This seems an ideal "combat" role for female service members, yet, I would be willing to bet that that there are few, if any, female drone pilots.
2
It is amazing to me that nowhere in this article ( and most f the comments ) is mentioned the amazing movie " Good Kill " by Andrew Nicol on this very subject. Go and watch it, and in spite of all the necessary exaggerations pertinent to film making, you will have a better understanding of why those guys/gals are having a very difficult time. All the reasons are there, from the incessant switch from military : civilian life to absurd killings to boredom ...
Of course, one of the reason why nobody is talking about it is that this movie has been shut off of major distribution because it is rubbing the nose of too many people in the USA : that is a shame by itself, as it is worth seeing and thinking about it.
Go see this movie.
Of course, one of the reason why nobody is talking about it is that this movie has been shut off of major distribution because it is rubbing the nose of too many people in the USA : that is a shame by itself, as it is worth seeing and thinking about it.
Go see this movie.
4
All the tens if not hundreds of million of dollars spent int the last sixty years on pilot fatigue studies and not a single flight officer could anticipate this outcome? Almost as ridiculous as expecting an $18,000 retention bonus to slow the exodus when these two million dollar pilots would have nothing to look forward to but more of the same.
Shame on the USAF and shame on the pentagon.
Shame on the USAF and shame on the pentagon.
1
Surely the Air Force hasn't the resources to train enough drone pilots because it's putting most of its budget behind developing drones that fly and kill all on their own. "How do you program 'bad guy'? Oh well, close enough for government work."
2
I think you're on to something here, but my thought is that it's because they're spending all their money on the new retirement system for generals, the F-35. It only flies two or three hours a week, and not in the rain, and the engine has a distressing tendency to catch fire for unknown reasons, and it can only carry a very small payload when it actually does fly, and it doesn't carry enough fuel to go very far, and the cost is $160 Million per plane, but if you've prevented the program from being scrapped you're guaranteed a nice supplement to your half-million-dollar pension.
13
"Officials say that since August, Predator and Reaper drones have conducted 3,300 sorties and 875 missile and bomb strikes in Iraq against the Islamic State."
And how strikes in other areas of the world? Does the US have a plan when many other nations start deploying drones? When this becomes the norm of warfare? What kind of a future are we facing with death coming from unseen drones in the sky?
And how strikes in other areas of the world? Does the US have a plan when many other nations start deploying drones? When this becomes the norm of warfare? What kind of a future are we facing with death coming from unseen drones in the sky?
21
How is this any more troubling than the existence of long range, medium range and short range missiles?
Apparently, to their chagrin, the Air Force wasn't as able to turn human beings into dehumanized robots who kill on command and don't have a conscience as they thought.
Another victory for humanity in sea of inhumanity.
Another victory for humanity in sea of inhumanity.
36
The article says the air force has them working alternating days and nights. It's hard to see how that is at all a good idea. Even IT people would burn out if you did that to them.
You can talk about military discipline but rested people really do function better.
You can talk about military discipline but rested people really do function better.
30
Yeah, I found that statement to be very, very strange. Maybe the reporter misunderstood?
There is no way a person can switch sleep and life schedules back and forth like that. Surely the AF psychologists would see this immediately and suggest changes. But, who knows?
I looked up the location of Creech and it is NOwhere. Outside the town of Indian Springs, pop. 2000, "with minimal services." A 45 minute drive to Nellis AFB. So, add a long commute to the stress factors.
There is no way a person can switch sleep and life schedules back and forth like that. Surely the AF psychologists would see this immediately and suggest changes. But, who knows?
I looked up the location of Creech and it is NOwhere. Outside the town of Indian Springs, pop. 2000, "with minimal services." A 45 minute drive to Nellis AFB. So, add a long commute to the stress factors.
Bankrupt USAF leadership is matched by clueless commenters and politicians.
First, reconnaissance, armed reconnaissance, and strike missions require the skills and experience of professional aircrews with awareness of aircraft, weapons, sensors, weather, and situations. Bill Creech, for whom the base is named, would speak out vehemently on this point.
Second, this isn't the air force's first rodeo. Spot promotions and other incentives were used effectively to motivate and promote retention throughout the Cold War period. Moreover, little difference exists between the stress faced by SAC, TAC, and ADC aircrews and the relative comfort of the UAV operators. 24/7, 365 these crews stood alert, trained, and flew training and deterrent missions that cost many of my colleagues their lives. Further, it was clear to all of us that, if deterrence failed, these missions would be one-way trips and bases and families would be cinders anyway.
Over the years since, the USAF has suffered recurrent pilot shortages and been forced to confront them. Today, in the information age -- with many more options -- the leadership of this organization once famed for innovation is bereft of imagination or solutions.
First, reconnaissance, armed reconnaissance, and strike missions require the skills and experience of professional aircrews with awareness of aircraft, weapons, sensors, weather, and situations. Bill Creech, for whom the base is named, would speak out vehemently on this point.
Second, this isn't the air force's first rodeo. Spot promotions and other incentives were used effectively to motivate and promote retention throughout the Cold War period. Moreover, little difference exists between the stress faced by SAC, TAC, and ADC aircrews and the relative comfort of the UAV operators. 24/7, 365 these crews stood alert, trained, and flew training and deterrent missions that cost many of my colleagues their lives. Further, it was clear to all of us that, if deterrence failed, these missions would be one-way trips and bases and families would be cinders anyway.
Over the years since, the USAF has suffered recurrent pilot shortages and been forced to confront them. Today, in the information age -- with many more options -- the leadership of this organization once famed for innovation is bereft of imagination or solutions.
20
Perhaps we should deploy these pilots to the theater in which they are flying the drones. No dinner at home with the family, only back to the base with the other soldiers and airmen. No daily transition problems. You fight the war day and night. Deploy them for six months or a year, then send them stateside to recuperate, train, or retire.
17
I think of all the innocent wedding party celebrants killed by drone operators and their bad and hasty decisions to fire Hell-Fire missiles. Young innocent Muslim brides and their families enjoying a post wedding celebration in the mountain villages of North Western Pakistan.
Because of bad decisions, trigger fingers and a reckless disregard for innocent human life--drone operators blithely destroyed multiple lives of innocent Pakistani and Afghan families.
Driving home and stopping off at Wal-Mart? Scarcely stopping at Wal-Mart for milk--many drone pilots stopped off at bars, liquor stores and Hooters to enjoy a night of partying after a day of killing innocent non-combatants.
The false narrative of "family men" drone pilots burdened with guilt of even a troubled conscience is darkly comical to read because the reality is a group of nerdy "High-fiving" eyeglass wearing math majors who could not fly actual planes.
Rather than flying real fighter aircraft which require true courage, flying skills and expertise--drone pilots are hidden away in bunkers playing craven games like school boys.
No wonder they finally experience depression and trauma as the burden of their sins finally catches up with them.
Because of bad decisions, trigger fingers and a reckless disregard for innocent human life--drone operators blithely destroyed multiple lives of innocent Pakistani and Afghan families.
Driving home and stopping off at Wal-Mart? Scarcely stopping at Wal-Mart for milk--many drone pilots stopped off at bars, liquor stores and Hooters to enjoy a night of partying after a day of killing innocent non-combatants.
The false narrative of "family men" drone pilots burdened with guilt of even a troubled conscience is darkly comical to read because the reality is a group of nerdy "High-fiving" eyeglass wearing math majors who could not fly actual planes.
Rather than flying real fighter aircraft which require true courage, flying skills and expertise--drone pilots are hidden away in bunkers playing craven games like school boys.
No wonder they finally experience depression and trauma as the burden of their sins finally catches up with them.
17
"Burn-out"! No! What most of these "killer drone pilots" come to realize is that they really don't know who they are murdering--innocent or not. It's time to put a stop to this "long-distance" murder! It's time for Barack Obama to focus on repairing and reinventing his abysmal foreign policy, time to put away his assassination list!
19
Exactly. I have no sympathy for these people.
10
As someone who made life and death decisions on the ground in Afghanistan while getting shot at and not while sitting in a trailer in Nevada, I would have loved to have had the opportunity to get stressed out about having to turn off my war face to go to Wal-Mart after work. It is tough to have sympathy for these guys who spend their days in air conditioning and see their families every night.
5
You've just demonstrated another source of stress for these drone pilots: no respect from the rest of the military. No bonhomie, no band of brothers. This is a unique job in the history of human warfare and yet everyone thinks they know what it feels like to do it. A thought experiment - "I did this, I would have liked to do that" I don't think is enough.
These people have no one who understands - they are isolated from their families and the civilian world and they are isolated from their military counterparts. Your bristling at the word counterparts makes my point.
Ask yourself, if you want, was being in harm's way - paying for your use of deadly force with the constant threat of death - not part of what made the experience at all meaningful - if it was at all meaningful. That esprit d'corps has been a driving factor of war since the very beginning, the bonding of soldiers in harm's way, take that away and what do you have?
If you want the program dismantled, like many folks do, then I get your contempt for the pilots. But if it's such a cushy job then you could always sign up - it looks like they're looking for people.
These people have no one who understands - they are isolated from their families and the civilian world and they are isolated from their military counterparts. Your bristling at the word counterparts makes my point.
Ask yourself, if you want, was being in harm's way - paying for your use of deadly force with the constant threat of death - not part of what made the experience at all meaningful - if it was at all meaningful. That esprit d'corps has been a driving factor of war since the very beginning, the bonding of soldiers in harm's way, take that away and what do you have?
If you want the program dismantled, like many folks do, then I get your contempt for the pilots. But if it's such a cushy job then you could always sign up - it looks like they're looking for people.
1
It would seem that given the fact that both the White House and the Joint Chiefs report directly to the CIA, this should not be a problem.
Given the magic stealth of its "black" budget and its "skill" at avoiding the oversight of Congress, or Congress's willful ignorance, not sure which, it would seem the CIA could readily pull some money out of its own budget, i.e., special ops slush-fund miscellaneous, and train "backup" pilots and use them till the current crop of Air Force "pilots," i.e., drone operators, return from their much needed Caribbean cruises. But without question, we must drone on--it is the way of the modern "battlefield".
Anyway you look at it, the CIA is in good shape, 60 or 65 recon missions a month: Air Force to kill from the air and Navy SEALs to kill on the ground. How things have changed for the CIA. Got everyone workin' for 'em today in daylight.
Given the magic stealth of its "black" budget and its "skill" at avoiding the oversight of Congress, or Congress's willful ignorance, not sure which, it would seem the CIA could readily pull some money out of its own budget, i.e., special ops slush-fund miscellaneous, and train "backup" pilots and use them till the current crop of Air Force "pilots," i.e., drone operators, return from their much needed Caribbean cruises. But without question, we must drone on--it is the way of the modern "battlefield".
Anyway you look at it, the CIA is in good shape, 60 or 65 recon missions a month: Air Force to kill from the air and Navy SEALs to kill on the ground. How things have changed for the CIA. Got everyone workin' for 'em today in daylight.
7
A couple of thoughts:
1-The US Army and Marine Corps use enlisted personnel to fly drones- the US Air Force requires it be a commissioned officer pilot. Still do not get the why of that. Maybe the USAF should start training Sergeants to fly the drones.
2-For all the hand wringing, sitting safely in the USA is not the same as being the point man on a walking patrol of Sadr City in Iraq. Not to diminish what the Drone Airmen do, but it does not remotely approach what is asked of our ground troops. The troops we currently have in Iraq are literally risking their necks should they be captured. I somehow doubt Nevada is as dangerous.
3-Our Military had no problem stop-lossing enlisted people in critical MOSes (Military Occupational Specialties) during the Iraq War, why should it be any different for a desk jockey Drone Pilot just because he/she is an Air Force Officer? I have a cousin who did 5 tours in the Iraq and Afghanistan theaters- he was stop losses from leaving because he was essential crew on a needed aircraft. Maybe enlisted people have to live by a different standard, but they should not.
1-The US Army and Marine Corps use enlisted personnel to fly drones- the US Air Force requires it be a commissioned officer pilot. Still do not get the why of that. Maybe the USAF should start training Sergeants to fly the drones.
2-For all the hand wringing, sitting safely in the USA is not the same as being the point man on a walking patrol of Sadr City in Iraq. Not to diminish what the Drone Airmen do, but it does not remotely approach what is asked of our ground troops. The troops we currently have in Iraq are literally risking their necks should they be captured. I somehow doubt Nevada is as dangerous.
3-Our Military had no problem stop-lossing enlisted people in critical MOSes (Military Occupational Specialties) during the Iraq War, why should it be any different for a desk jockey Drone Pilot just because he/she is an Air Force Officer? I have a cousin who did 5 tours in the Iraq and Afghanistan theaters- he was stop losses from leaving because he was essential crew on a needed aircraft. Maybe enlisted people have to live by a different standard, but they should not.
11
What difference would having them flown by enlisted personnel make? They'd still have the same problems. Only the Air Force would get away with paying them dramatically less.
I know a couple of people in the AF who flew drones. They saw it as a dead end job that went nowhere, that was impossible get out of and morally repugnant. You didn't get promoted and you're entire career consisted of what you could see from your box.
Sort of like a missile launch officer sitting at the bottom of a missile silo with a nuclear weapon out in the badlands, east of Great Falls. There's nowhere to go, but up; but they never let you out of the hole/booth.
I know a couple of people in the AF who flew drones. They saw it as a dead end job that went nowhere, that was impossible get out of and morally repugnant. You didn't get promoted and you're entire career consisted of what you could see from your box.
Sort of like a missile launch officer sitting at the bottom of a missile silo with a nuclear weapon out in the badlands, east of Great Falls. There's nowhere to go, but up; but they never let you out of the hole/booth.
7
Why NCOs?
They tend to have higher retention rates & cost less. A lot less.
It should feel like a dead end job for an officer as it is a waste of an Officer's education, but the same is true of flying a plane. If the Space Shuttle designed in the 1970's could essentially fly itself, an Officer should not be required to fly a propeller driven drone. These things are not dogfighting- they are loitering most of the time.
They tend to have higher retention rates & cost less. A lot less.
It should feel like a dead end job for an officer as it is a waste of an Officer's education, but the same is true of flying a plane. If the Space Shuttle designed in the 1970's could essentially fly itself, an Officer should not be required to fly a propeller driven drone. These things are not dogfighting- they are loitering most of the time.
2
Another example of a sclerotic military culture resistant to change. There are millions of Xbox playing teenaged boys who could ably fly a drone, and would gladly do so to take out the leadership of ISIS in exchange for an unlimited supply of Mountain Dew and cheesy puffs. But the Air Force has stubbornly insisted only pilots are allowed to fly drones, out of a misplaced sense of professional pride, instead of considering alternatives (other than teenaged XBoxers). A modest proposal for the Air Force brass: Consider having trained civilians operate the drones in those air conditioned trailers outside Vegas, with pilots acting as floaters monitoring every half dozen or so drone operators. It would save everyone a lot of fatigue and relieve mental stress all around.
4
Few, if any, drone pilots are actual combat pilots who switched to flying drones. Most drone 'flight crew' have only flown drones. The Air Force now produces more drone pilots than it does pilots who fly actual aircraft.
Shifting the burden to civilians would just displace the exact same condition on them. It solves nothing.
Shifting the burden to civilians would just displace the exact same condition on them. It solves nothing.
3
The U.S. Army (which included the Army Air Corps) went from 189,839 people (all men) in 1939 to 3,075,608 in 1942 and 8,267,958 in 1945. That was a war. If you're serious about conducting war operations against ISIS (or even al Qa'eda) you need numbers like that. The Global War on Terror™ would require similar sacrifices if it was a real war. Of course, it's not, it's just a scam to allow some large corporations and well-connected grifters to rob the treasury with the help of their pet congressmen. This story is an astonishing confession of incompetence on the part of the Air Force's leaders. A bunch of generals should be sacked.
6
Don't forget the pizza!
So strategically, it is hard to imagine the air force would publicly announce to the NYT they have a manpower shortage. Smells very much like part of a Pentagon ploy to pressure the levers of power to give the military yet more taxpayer money.
22
Ah, yes, think "missile gap" in 1960.
1
American teenagers play video games an average of 20 hours a week. We simply schedule drone pilots 5 days a week at 4 hour shifts. Problem solved.
3
True, think "Ender's Game."
The main thing I want to know about drones are the answers to these questions:
1. When will it be possible for them to mainly stand down from use as high flying killers? Is this war endless?
2. When will all the records, including video recordings, be made public?
3. When will the military make available estimates of the number and places of strikes that were mistaken as to the major target? In other words, those times when a target was hit and no working terrorists were killed?
4. When will we know how many people have been killed by drones?
5, What is the legal authorization for drone strikes? Why does the military and the administration believe they are legal?
6. If drone strikes are legal, does that mean that this country can use other means to kill people any time, anywhere, if we believe they are active terrorists? Is shooting and throat slitting acceptable, too?
7. How can we get a full, unbiased assessment of the drone attacks, a post-engagement report, on who was killed and whether, in total, the drones represented a plus or a negative in protecting Americans? Neither the Congress nor the military should be involved in providing this assessment.
1. When will it be possible for them to mainly stand down from use as high flying killers? Is this war endless?
2. When will all the records, including video recordings, be made public?
3. When will the military make available estimates of the number and places of strikes that were mistaken as to the major target? In other words, those times when a target was hit and no working terrorists were killed?
4. When will we know how many people have been killed by drones?
5, What is the legal authorization for drone strikes? Why does the military and the administration believe they are legal?
6. If drone strikes are legal, does that mean that this country can use other means to kill people any time, anywhere, if we believe they are active terrorists? Is shooting and throat slitting acceptable, too?
7. How can we get a full, unbiased assessment of the drone attacks, a post-engagement report, on who was killed and whether, in total, the drones represented a plus or a negative in protecting Americans? Neither the Congress nor the military should be involved in providing this assessment.
19
You ask a lot of questions which except to further your self serving quest are somewhat irrelevant. Just because you pay taxes and probably live a nice life in this country what gives you the right to know anything more then anyone else? And if you had that information what would you do about it?
Ever heard of government transparency? Public reaction? You can put your blinders on and accept that these pilots are killing people, without giving civilians quarter, without knowing why or how; most people can't.
I want access to the information so that I can make an informed choice as which politicians to vote for. We pay for it, it's done in our name and it ruins pilots/crew's lives. We, as a society, have the right to decide if we want to continue to do it.
There's nothing in the constitution that says the government has the absolute right to keep everything they want secret. In fact, the constitution forces them to be transparent.
I want access to the information so that I can make an informed choice as which politicians to vote for. We pay for it, it's done in our name and it ruins pilots/crew's lives. We, as a society, have the right to decide if we want to continue to do it.
There's nothing in the constitution that says the government has the absolute right to keep everything they want secret. In fact, the constitution forces them to be transparent.
5
Maybe that's why the allied forces won WWII because a society of over enlightened people weren't there judging or even criticizing the military's even move even before they acted. As for "without civilians quarter" the 20,000 French citizens killed directly at the hands of allied actions in the two months after D Day wish you would have been there. You would be better off just stating your beliefs about it being a illegal and unjust war, then we would agree. As for Transparency, when would you like it, before or during, because after doesn't seem to work for you.
1
Having spent more than 20 years in the Air Force, I can tell you that there is more to this story than the public knows. Or will ever be permitted to know. The word "promotion" I expect is a big factor. I would not be surprised if there is some internal conflict also about whether drone operators should be called "pilots", when they do not fly manned aircraft. That would bear looking into. But, go ahead and give them some more money. We have lots. And there are probably a lot of people who would like those jobs....you know, the Americans who have no jobs. As I recall, they all volunteered for the military, they were not drafted. It is time to quit complaining and just go back to work. Forget the lame excuses.
15
It is amazing how shortsighted they are regarding this. Too busy training the Iraq military to spend money on our own. Incredibly poor management from top-down.
7
I did 3 tours in and in support of the war in Viet Nam. It seems that the majority of the comments here are similar in nature to the comments directed to the returnees returning from that war.
I would suggest if you don't like the direction the US government takes, you would be better served by directing you comments to your representatives in Washington DC.
These young pilots and their supervisors don't really get to set much national defense policy.
I would suggest if you don't like the direction the US government takes, you would be better served by directing you comments to your representatives in Washington DC.
These young pilots and their supervisors don't really get to set much national defense policy.
15
Sir, I am a regular caller to my congressman. As a veteran and military parent I know exactly what you're saying.
1
Nuremberg clearly concluded that 'following orders' is not an adequate moral or ethical excuse for ones actions. All individuals possess free will, and just because an officer orders a soldier to commit an unethical act does not relieve the soldier from the responsibility to choose to follow or not to follow.
Furthermore, our Congress and Executive Branch of government has shown its eager willingness to engage in war for little to no to false reasons. It can not be relied on to do the right thing or to be persuaded to change their course of action based on public comments. Our government continual makes decisions that are manifestly contrary to the best interests of the country. Drone attacks are just one particularly egregious example.
Furthermore, our Congress and Executive Branch of government has shown its eager willingness to engage in war for little to no to false reasons. It can not be relied on to do the right thing or to be persuaded to change their course of action based on public comments. Our government continual makes decisions that are manifestly contrary to the best interests of the country. Drone attacks are just one particularly egregious example.
3
Dubya violated the Nuremberg Charter against aggressive war when he 'pre-emptively' invaded Iraq. I don't think people in the government see the Nuremberg Charter as being a curb on what they can do. Or even a consideration. Which is a problem with them, not the Charter.
It's all about personalities now. They don't come to govern, they come to push personal, political agendas. As long as there is no accountability, there won't be any restraint.
It's all about personalities now. They don't come to govern, they come to push personal, political agendas. As long as there is no accountability, there won't be any restraint.
6
I cannot imagine pulling into work and putting on my killing cap and then driving home to a normal life. Our perpetual war is demented. The more people we kill, the more people want to kill us. We should have taken out those responsible for 9/11 and called it a day. Instead, we invaded Iraq and started this ghastly perpetual war.
82
1. The military's work hours per day and alternate day and night shufts is a big part of the problem. Try to impliment what normal empoyers do.
2. Move the operation away from Las Vegas. LV is not a nirmal city.
3. Get real and hure a bunch of teenage gamers. Military is making the classic mistake of fighting a new war with old war ideas and requirements.
2. Move the operation away from Las Vegas. LV is not a nirmal city.
3. Get real and hure a bunch of teenage gamers. Military is making the classic mistake of fighting a new war with old war ideas and requirements.
4
can't the Pentagon just hire teenagers for this job? There is no way flying one of these can be as complicated as playing any playstation or Nintendo game!
3
Read "Ender's Game".
2
"Ender's Game?" Are we having trouble separating reality from science fiction?
3
The suggestions here to hire teenagers to kill people remotely is as disgusting as ISIS. How many civilians have been killed? What if it was your family who was killed because a bad guy lived on the same block? How do we know that we are the "good guys"? Good guys don't use cluster bombs that kill kids. This seems like terrorism with a bigger budget.
5
I would consider any strategic military plans to be TOP SECRET, is this the "Snowdenized" version of the New Defense Department?
2
Seems to be simply a problem of poor management in USAF--not foreseeing end of hitches, not foreseeing burnout, perhaps not paying right nor promoting right, not upping the recruitment and the training. Should be easy to fix within 3-4 months: transfer in some more "real" pilots, and crank the training, and offer better re-up bonus.
14
Maybe if they had Generals doing drone duty things would improve.
11
Generals are too busy planning their military retirement and getting hired by a defense contractor "Beltway bandit" paying obscene amounts of money.
The military has shot themselves in the foot here (pun intended), they require Drone Operators to be military pilots, increasing the training requirements and shrinking the pool of potential applicants. They need to loosen up their standards and allow specialized training to compensate for a pilot license.
12
Really important point in the article: When deployed overseas, not only does the soldier know to wake up and go to sleep with a "war face" on, but the physical distance between home and family gives you some small breathing space and a buffer to readjust - even though PTSD is becoming more well-recognized (albeit unsolved and often untreated) as active duty military personnel struggle to re-adapt to an environment with different stressors. Stepping out of the drone control cab and having only a few minutes to downshift back into domestic routine is an unrealistic expectation being placed upon the drone pilots. Police and firefighters know this challenge also. Pulling the trigger and killing ANYBODY (combatant or bystander) is a burden that one must live with forever - whether the blood is visible or only perceived - no matter how noble the cause in whose name the deed is done.
56
Perhaps the Air Force needs to assign personnel and train their personnel to compartmentalize their job and personal life. I had no problems coming in from the field and shifting to on base life. Or are we recruiting weaker people today?
Glad to hear you can do that. I'm an old dog - Vietnam era pilot with another 25 years of reserve duty in various conflicts. I'm still affected, even though I do compartmentalize very well. Wish I knew the answer to your question. I don't think the recruits are weaker. But I do think the problems they face in the kind of operations we engage in today are more complex.
2
From 65 down to 60 a DAY. Not a drone expert, a stat geek, or a math whiz, but that doesn't seem all that apocalyptic of a drop.
9
The USAF needs to take lessons from the USN. If you have to make officers do impossible jobs like being in a sub or surface ship where the workload is horrible, deploy the people away from Wal-Mart and their families. Stand them down after this for awhile. At least drone pilots don't have to manage the maintenance on their gear.
5
As I understand it, nuclear subs have "blue" and "gold" crews who each serve half the year and train the other half.
That this isn't happening with drone means that it's being done on the cheap -- which is how drones have always been sold. The sub crews are highly-trained and valuable; the Navy wants them to have a long career. Apparently the Air Force has no such priorities for the drone pilots.
That this isn't happening with drone means that it's being done on the cheap -- which is how drones have always been sold. The sub crews are highly-trained and valuable; the Navy wants them to have a long career. Apparently the Air Force has no such priorities for the drone pilots.
13
Excellent point. I have long believed that the quickness with which fighters in Vietnam returned stateside was both a blunder and part of the reason so many had difficulty adjusting to the stress after combat. WAM! Within 24 to 36 hours they were back in the land of hamburgers, stupid television shows, girls with mini-skirts all the way up to the danger zone and then subjected to the demands of family and friends, even if those demands were nothing more than people wanting to go out drinking or to parties. The shock was too much.
People want to have a normal family life, if they can. There needs to be a careful evaluation of whether this is possible for drone pilots. Probably, it isn't. They could at least be rotated in and out of a combat situation, even though this would reduce the number of pilots available at any given time. If something needs to be done, it should be done properly. The military is wonderful for placing necessity of a mission over everything else, including the mental health of those they call on to serve. The fact that it is a command and control structure works against doing things in a way that would protect those involved and allow them to have a better chance to resume normal life post military days.
People want to have a normal family life, if they can. There needs to be a careful evaluation of whether this is possible for drone pilots. Probably, it isn't. They could at least be rotated in and out of a combat situation, even though this would reduce the number of pilots available at any given time. If something needs to be done, it should be done properly. The military is wonderful for placing necessity of a mission over everything else, including the mental health of those they call on to serve. The fact that it is a command and control structure works against doing things in a way that would protect those involved and allow them to have a better chance to resume normal life post military days.
5
In my Navy career, I made 9 Westpacs. Each Westpac was 6 months long. The only "stand-down" we got was putting in for personal leave. After pulling in homeport, the next day was a work day and it was always a very long work day. So I wish this myth of "Navy stand-down" would end.
1
So that explains all the "collateral damage". Serious damage ruining people's lives forever with just a shrug. It maybe a video-game for the sleep-deprived, exhausted drone operator sitting in an air-conditioned cabin in the Utah Desert. But faraway is untold misery, morbidity and deaths. I am quite sure the Air Force saw this pattern and the related burnout rates. But as has become the norm in any field, you make do with fewer people making them work more and more. But there is a limit to human endurance. When that is crossed efficiency and work output are reduced dramatically with a greater probability to commit mistakes. This phenomenon occurred with the medical training of Residents. But the Medical Fraternity quickly corrected and solved it by what is known as the 'Bell's Law'. Hospitals were penalized for not following this Law. The result was a drastic reduction in the number of mistakes made. It's way past time the Air Force brings about some version of this Bell's Law. It will save a lot of lives and every human life is very valuable be it our own or others'.
7
War is a nasty business. True when people were hacking at each other with swords, and still true with drones that get no actual blood on the pilots' hands.
But since we are going to fight this way, it seems the Air Force should have the resources. Perhaps instead of putting uncountable billions into unneeded, unwanted weapons systems, we could put that money towards a system that works. Of course many Congressmen want the unneeded programs in their districts. But the U.S. spends so much on defense. This seems like a misallocation of resources, but can't tell that to politicians who want the money to flow their way. Makes solutions more difficult.
But since we are going to fight this way, it seems the Air Force should have the resources. Perhaps instead of putting uncountable billions into unneeded, unwanted weapons systems, we could put that money towards a system that works. Of course many Congressmen want the unneeded programs in their districts. But the U.S. spends so much on defense. This seems like a misallocation of resources, but can't tell that to politicians who want the money to flow their way. Makes solutions more difficult.
24
What does a retired drone pilot do for work after the military? They can't go get a job at Southwest can they? More stress....being unemployable despite high tech skills.
5
The article stated that they were in high demand in private security an expected demand to increase more as commericial drones were deployed.
4
Part of the problem is the Air Forces insistence that only pilots can fly drones. So young men who qualify as pilots, suddenly find themselves in an easy chair - a great disappointment. The man power problem could be solved overnight by letting enlisted personnel be drone pilots.
34
and those drone "pilots" retire and go work for airlines. whose flying your plane?
A friend has a grandson, unemployed and recently graduated with a degree in aviation from Liberty University, who has just been recruited to fly drones for a well-known military contractor. The young man has been promised a bright future.
I do wonder if the future of drones, as with so many of the more unmentionable duties of our empire, lies with mercenaries.
I do wonder if the future of drones, as with so many of the more unmentionable duties of our empire, lies with mercenaries.
22
The concept of drone warfare remains faulty, no matter the arguments of the military-industrial complex and politicians.
The targeted killing of leaders of various groups around the world via drones will remain as successful as our decades long war against drugs; wherein, law enforcement repeatedly "decapitates" the leaders of U.S. drug gangs and foreign drug "warlords." Once a drug gang leader is imprisoned or killed, many others are ready to take their place. It certainly hasn't decreased the amount of drugs coming into the U.S. or its distribution during this so-called war.
The same applies internationally with so-called "terrorists." There are always more waiting in the wings to take their places. Until we resolve the root causes of these international conflicts and wars (and it ain't because they're jealous of our freedoms), these wars will continue endlessly. As Malala Yousafzia has publicly and repeatedly stated, the U.S. is actually creating more enemies via the drone attacks and killings.
The targeted killing of leaders of various groups around the world via drones will remain as successful as our decades long war against drugs; wherein, law enforcement repeatedly "decapitates" the leaders of U.S. drug gangs and foreign drug "warlords." Once a drug gang leader is imprisoned or killed, many others are ready to take their place. It certainly hasn't decreased the amount of drugs coming into the U.S. or its distribution during this so-called war.
The same applies internationally with so-called "terrorists." There are always more waiting in the wings to take their places. Until we resolve the root causes of these international conflicts and wars (and it ain't because they're jealous of our freedoms), these wars will continue endlessly. As Malala Yousafzia has publicly and repeatedly stated, the U.S. is actually creating more enemies via the drone attacks and killings.
52
American intervention does not help in any way whatsoever...
2
A question. In drone warfare, are medals for valor now obsolete?
5
Assassins don't receive medals, then , of course, President Obama won the Nobel Peace Prize.
Sounds like they just need more money.. nothing extra money can't solve.
1
It doesn't go nearly in-depth enough about what actually happens to these pilots. They will often fly the same surveillance route for days or weeks - getting to know the people as they see their daily routine. Families, children, pets, normal happy communities. Then one day, there is the order for a strike in their "town" -- someone who has been part of their day to day experience is killed remotely and the impact it has on the community is seen up close the very next day as that pilot flies the same route.
Then, that pilot gets in his car and drives through the suburbs - full of people oblivious to the horrors - getting cut off by angry idiots in traffic who have no idea how fortunate they really are, seeing families in his neighborhood *not* living under the constant fear of sudden military strikes from either side... and yet, he's expected to act all normal.
Did you have a good day at work dear? Well, I can't really tell you that I had to pull a trigger which blew up a car with 4 people in it that I've seen every day for the past 6 months... so 'not really.'
Oh, and most of those pilots? Didn't know that this was what they were signing up for.
Then, that pilot gets in his car and drives through the suburbs - full of people oblivious to the horrors - getting cut off by angry idiots in traffic who have no idea how fortunate they really are, seeing families in his neighborhood *not* living under the constant fear of sudden military strikes from either side... and yet, he's expected to act all normal.
Did you have a good day at work dear? Well, I can't really tell you that I had to pull a trigger which blew up a car with 4 people in it that I've seen every day for the past 6 months... so 'not really.'
Oh, and most of those pilots? Didn't know that this was what they were signing up for.
9
This is good news.
8
Of course drone operators can have depression or PTSD. When at the VA I treated a former submariner who had PTSD symptoms from repeatedly drilling the launch of nuclear missiles, some of which he did not know were drills. He had nightmares of surfacing later to a nuclear decimated planet, and thinking of his family topside when he "pushed the button". He hadn't been in combat or actually killed someone, but the symptoms were real.
These drone operators see the death and destruction they create, seeing the guts of the enemy looks just like seeing the guts of a friend, although with a somewhat different emotional response. They are human, after all, and we would rue the day when they don't respond this way, but for now, they bear the brunt of our invisible war.
These drone operators see the death and destruction they create, seeing the guts of the enemy looks just like seeing the guts of a friend, although with a somewhat different emotional response. They are human, after all, and we would rue the day when they don't respond this way, but for now, they bear the brunt of our invisible war.
46
Well just why do they have to see the results? Now working 12 hour shifts six days a week would wear upon anybody. Poor management is part of the issue and somewhat not vetting folks enough. Those that are sensitive about collateral damage should be on recon missions. Not that I could do it but I would have no problem with doing this sort of work. Eight hours a day, five and perhaps six sometimes days a week. Protesters should be given very long sentences especially if they are trying to stop workers going to work. Simple!!!
2
The personnel issues related to drone attacks is not surprising. Why would an Air Force pilot, possibly motivated by the thrill of flying a fighter jet, enjoy piloting a drone and committing assassinations with collateral damage, or attacks of only collateral damage?
I doubt that better pay in the private industry is a significant reason for drone pilots to leave the military.
Drone pilots who are not sociopaths to begin with are sure to have psychological problems. Private industry will either know this, or learn it the hard way.
I can’t help but think of the Catch 22’s pilot, Yossarian, who is ordered to bomb a seaside Italian town, which has no military value, and rightly elects to drop the bombs in the sea. The drone pilots can’t get away with this sort of right-action given that all is recorded.
Hard to imagine their morning meetings, the topic of which may be to select who is going to be targeted (and possibly killed) later in the day, along with surrounding family and innocents.
Make no mistake, drone technology is not particularly complicated, and the U.S. is not unlikely to experience sustained drone attacks on our own cities carried out by enemies, enemies we’ve taught the ethics of sudden death.
I doubt that better pay in the private industry is a significant reason for drone pilots to leave the military.
Drone pilots who are not sociopaths to begin with are sure to have psychological problems. Private industry will either know this, or learn it the hard way.
I can’t help but think of the Catch 22’s pilot, Yossarian, who is ordered to bomb a seaside Italian town, which has no military value, and rightly elects to drop the bombs in the sea. The drone pilots can’t get away with this sort of right-action given that all is recorded.
Hard to imagine their morning meetings, the topic of which may be to select who is going to be targeted (and possibly killed) later in the day, along with surrounding family and innocents.
Make no mistake, drone technology is not particularly complicated, and the U.S. is not unlikely to experience sustained drone attacks on our own cities carried out by enemies, enemies we’ve taught the ethics of sudden death.
29
Well Gee our anti air systems won't allow large drones to do what ours do. Now smaller ones could cause issues.
"Make no mistake, drone technology is not particularly complicated, and the U.S. is not unlikely to experience sustained drone attacks on our own cities carried out by enemies, enemies we’ve taught the ethics of sudden death."
This. Oh yes. We've set ourselves up for this. When it happens, we cannot say that we didn't see it coming.
This. Oh yes. We've set ourselves up for this. When it happens, we cannot say that we didn't see it coming.
2
I have one disagreement with your comment:
"...and the U.S. is not unlikely to experience sustained drone attacks on our own cities carried out by enemies..."
This is to misunderstand the nature of drone warfare. Look at a picture of a Reaper drone. You will note that it has a propellor--it's a prop plane! The Reaper is quite slow and is designed for endurance, not speed, so that it can circle over targets for hours at time. This means that any adversary with a real air force, or that has real ground-to-air missles, can easily shoot it down.
The Reaper is the kind of drone responsible for most of the kills in the "War On Terror". It is only useful for attacking people who cannot fight back, who are in fact not a threat to us. This is the morality of our drone warfare. I am not surprised that many drone operators get burned out and leave. You can be sure that they understand the nature of what they are doing.
"...and the U.S. is not unlikely to experience sustained drone attacks on our own cities carried out by enemies..."
This is to misunderstand the nature of drone warfare. Look at a picture of a Reaper drone. You will note that it has a propellor--it's a prop plane! The Reaper is quite slow and is designed for endurance, not speed, so that it can circle over targets for hours at time. This means that any adversary with a real air force, or that has real ground-to-air missles, can easily shoot it down.
The Reaper is the kind of drone responsible for most of the kills in the "War On Terror". It is only useful for attacking people who cannot fight back, who are in fact not a threat to us. This is the morality of our drone warfare. I am not surprised that many drone operators get burned out and leave. You can be sure that they understand the nature of what they are doing.
No problem once a special class of robots is developed that will analyze the data and make the decision to kill or not kill. I suspect DARPA has one ready for tryouts now.
7
Linda,
I believe laws are in place that prevent this sort of scenario. Hopefully it will be a UN law as well.
I believe laws are in place that prevent this sort of scenario. Hopefully it will be a UN law as well.
I served twelve years active and reserve, and have about as much enthusiasm for putting our service people in harms way as McClellan did; but autonomous killing machines? Please, we already demonstrate on a daily basis through "targeted" killing of "collateral" non-combatants (including infants, children and elderly) how disfunctional our moral compass has become, without going there.
2
A large percentage of PTSD in the Military is a result of young people being called on to commit unconscionable acts that they have been taught all their lives are immoral. Killing innocent women and children in attempts to eliminate 'suspected terrorists' can only be done by a psychopath. Normal people, no matter how brainwashed by the military, are going to have problems.
Even the so called Military Exemption to Thou Shalt Not Kill isn't effective when children and the elderly start piling up as collateral damage.
The drone program is inherently immoral. To try to view it as a personnel problem completely misses the point and just sets up more young Americans to be traumatized as they wantonly kill innocent bystanders.
While we are rightly concerned about the mental and moral health of our soldiers we might also spare a few minutes thought for the people at the other end of our drones and what their lives are like. www.livingunderdrones.org
Even the so called Military Exemption to Thou Shalt Not Kill isn't effective when children and the elderly start piling up as collateral damage.
The drone program is inherently immoral. To try to view it as a personnel problem completely misses the point and just sets up more young Americans to be traumatized as they wantonly kill innocent bystanders.
While we are rightly concerned about the mental and moral health of our soldiers we might also spare a few minutes thought for the people at the other end of our drones and what their lives are like. www.livingunderdrones.org
20
Well perhaps we need different people, ones that find killing terrorists a very moral thing no matter what minor other people are hurt. Sort of like those in WWII that bombed cities, firebombed some. This is war and war is unpleasant, or perhaps much worse.
5
"Some drone operators have struggled with the constant killing, especially when civilians or coalition troops are accidentally hit by missile strikes."
Gladly, in a way, this added responsibility of witnessing and recording the horrendous destruction of human life - as compared with conventional pilots - nullifies the concern that drone strikes would become part of an automated, antiseptic warfare that inures war-makers to the horrors of war.
Gladly, in a way, this added responsibility of witnessing and recording the horrendous destruction of human life - as compared with conventional pilots - nullifies the concern that drone strikes would become part of an automated, antiseptic warfare that inures war-makers to the horrors of war.
8
Please have some respect and gratitude for these pilots. We ask these young men and women ("actually order") to kill people and destroy property at a moments notice, so we will be safe. They see, up close, the destruction they cause. And they are going it for us.
Might be a good idea for each adult American to have to spend a day pushing the fire button and witnessing the death and destruction caused thereby.
Might be a good idea for each adult American to have to spend a day pushing the fire button and witnessing the death and destruction caused thereby.
15
If every American had to push the fire button, and get an explanation why it's necessary to extend the American empire and at whose behest, we'd be out of the Mideast so fast it'd make your head spin.
13
"To kill people and destroy property at a moments notice" does not, as you state "keep us safe". We are killing hundreds of women, children and innocent civilians in our zeal to kill 'suspected terrorists' and everyone around them.
We don't even know who we are killing half the time, using "signature strikes" when we think "suspected terrorists" are congregating.
And how exactly does sending in a second missile once the rescuers and medical help have arrived keep us safe? www.nytimes.com/.../us-drone-strikes-are-said-to-target-rescuers. http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-24557333
Every person we kill as 'collateral damage' has an extended family with very good reasons to hate America and the same motivations we would have to act against people who wantonly killed our families.
We don't even know who we are killing half the time, using "signature strikes" when we think "suspected terrorists" are congregating.
And how exactly does sending in a second missile once the rescuers and medical help have arrived keep us safe? www.nytimes.com/.../us-drone-strikes-are-said-to-target-rescuers. http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-24557333
Every person we kill as 'collateral damage' has an extended family with very good reasons to hate America and the same motivations we would have to act against people who wantonly killed our families.
8
This is exactly why our government is so concerned to make sure that none of us see these events even at second hand through the recordings made of these ineptly targeted attacks, whether by manned aircraft human pilots at one km range or by remotely piloted aircraft at 10,000 km range. Remember the furor raised by the helicopter gun camera footage published through WikiLeaks? I served twelve years active and reserve, and was very troubled by the mass killing of half a dozen men on the street, none of whom appeared to me to be carrying weapons at the time they were slaughtered. Little did I then know that act was to be followed a few minutes later by the shooting up of a van and evacuation party who came to the aid of those victims. The cherry on top of that bloody sundae? There was a primary school aged child clearly visible in the gun camera footage, sitting in the front passenger seat of the van when the second fusillade struck.
I am very glad my service began at the end of the Vietnam war and ended before the fall of the USSR. The NATO Central Front war would have been horrible had it occurred, even if it had not included employment of weapons of mass destruction and/or killing. Even so, it seems to me that we have since strayed very far indeed from preparing for, let alone conducting, just wars in the most humane way reasonably possible. In my view, this fall was in large part initiated and accelerated by the outlaw behavior of the Cheney/Bush Presidency.
I am very glad my service began at the end of the Vietnam war and ended before the fall of the USSR. The NATO Central Front war would have been horrible had it occurred, even if it had not included employment of weapons of mass destruction and/or killing. Even so, it seems to me that we have since strayed very far indeed from preparing for, let alone conducting, just wars in the most humane way reasonably possible. In my view, this fall was in large part initiated and accelerated by the outlaw behavior of the Cheney/Bush Presidency.
10
If you really think about it, you have to hand it to the guy who has enough committment to his "cause" that he is willing to engage his enemy hand-to-hand and cut off his head.
It takes a real warrior to do that. It's a ugly world and war is an ugly thing. I can only imagine remotely killing a family halfway around the world and then a hour later you are sitting at the dinner table.
It takes a real warrior to do that. It's a ugly world and war is an ugly thing. I can only imagine remotely killing a family halfway around the world and then a hour later you are sitting at the dinner table.
2
Killing and mayhem can indeed be stressful.
25
Perhaps they can issue more H-1B visas and outsource the operation as Disney and so many other corporations have done.
81
Excellent idea !! Hopefully they won't hire any Chinese hackers in the process.
2
Time and time again drones have been shown to be ineffective, imprecise and murderous tools, angering our enemies more than they already were. While it may be needed to have a capacity there certainly is no need for the billions being spent.
8
I don't have a great deal of sympathy, sorry. My sympathy is with the victims and their families.
39
Considering the pace of autonomous robotics, may simply accelerate the rise of the robot armies.
12
Humans have limitations but the armed pool of flying drones are unlimited, -- go figure? I suspect this problem is similar to the Iraq army that is being trained, retrained and trained again for the last decade. Maybe DARPA might help with the fragility of humans or turn the task over to the Marines. They might really adapt to air conditioned video warfare conditions as long as they might find a bar fight after work. Nevertheless, I suspect, they will solve this opportunity problem with more money more money.
2
"Long hours and the psychological toll of the work have forced the Pentagon to abandon its goal of increasing the flights and to instead reduce the number."
I'm not surprised that going to work each day...to indiscriminately kill old men, woman and children, who happen to be near a "target", would take a toll on any human being who actually has a conscience.
I'm not surprised that going to work each day...to indiscriminately kill old men, woman and children, who happen to be near a "target", would take a toll on any human being who actually has a conscience.
72
The suggestion, even if in jest, that teen kids are becoming more adept at this than adults rings true. The "training" usually starts in early adolescence and improves exponentially.
At the very least, they should be warrant officers, not commissioned officers. It may help in recruiting.
At the very least, they should be warrant officers, not commissioned officers. It may help in recruiting.
2
There are some things about this story that don't add up. First, the numbers: 70 flights a day means not more than 140 pilots on duty at any time (one flying the drone, the second on standby to take over at the end of the first pilot's shift). With even 500 pilots, there should be plenty of personnel to maintain that sortie rate.
Second, the stress, depression and PTSD. If we are to believe our leaders, whether they by President Obama or CIA director Brennan, or any of the many drone warfare enthusiasts in Congress and the MIC, it is exceedingly rare that innocents are killed by drone strikes. If they are telling the truth, then the pilots can't be suffering the stated effects. Which leads us to the possibility (gasp!) that we are being lied to. Once again, Al Jazeera, Wikileaks, and non-aligned reporters are telling the truth, it appears.
Second, the stress, depression and PTSD. If we are to believe our leaders, whether they by President Obama or CIA director Brennan, or any of the many drone warfare enthusiasts in Congress and the MIC, it is exceedingly rare that innocents are killed by drone strikes. If they are telling the truth, then the pilots can't be suffering the stated effects. Which leads us to the possibility (gasp!) that we are being lied to. Once again, Al Jazeera, Wikileaks, and non-aligned reporters are telling the truth, it appears.
59
Or, the article is a bit under-researched and exaggerates things? No?
2
What is your expertise in determining how many pilots are needed?
How nice that the Air Force is helping to ease stress on the airmen via a "human performance team" of psychologist, doctors, and chaplains--making it easier for drone operators to overcome that pesky old prohibition: Thou Shalt Not Kill. Perhaps some members of that team, or colleagues, were equally useful in the torture chambers of Guantanamo, Abu Ghraib, etc.
62
Maybe the Air Force could send these healers to help the victims, the children suffering nightmares and preferring cloudy days because the drones don't fly on cloudy days.
4
There's only one solution. For the defense of the country of course. That is to start the drone training program in the elementary schools, giving gifted video gamers a chance to advance right out of grade school into profitable careers as drone pilots.
44
Yeah, I saw that movie too.
2
The horrors of art sometimes precede full realization of the horrors of the allegedly real world. As an example, the siege at the end of Twain's Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court (1889) was a fair foreshadowing of the horrors of attempting to storm well designed and supported field fortifications on the Western Front 15 and more years later.
3
That's not a solution. Unless you mean a final one.