When did HRH Hillary start preaching? She was a rather average HS student.
Elmer Gantry.
1
I grew up in a pentecostal church-assemblies of god-late 1970-80's. The only good thing about it was its anabaptist tradition. In theory, at an appropriate age, one could choose to be baptized and commit to the church. In practice, I was pressured by my mother to take water baptism at about the age of 14 but left soon after.
What turned me off? Half the service consisted of an extensive focus on right wing politics and constant pleas for money. At the pulpit was a poster board with a fundraising thermometer. Images of christ were verboten...because idolatry, but a money graph was just
fine. It was truly the precursor to the dominance of fundamental christianity we now have in the Republican party.
And of course we had many of the elements described in this article though not any child preachers. I am quite skeptical of faith healing and prophesy although it did make for a lively service.
What turned me off? Half the service consisted of an extensive focus on right wing politics and constant pleas for money. At the pulpit was a poster board with a fundraising thermometer. Images of christ were verboten...because idolatry, but a money graph was just
fine. It was truly the precursor to the dominance of fundamental christianity we now have in the Republican party.
And of course we had many of the elements described in this article though not any child preachers. I am quite skeptical of faith healing and prophesy although it did make for a lively service.
2
Our God makes it clear that He does the healing, Himself through Jesus Christ, and through proven faithful men. Please read James 5:13-16 in the Holy Bible. See verse 16, "Therefore, openly confess your sins to one another and pray for one another, that you may get healed. A righteous man's supplication, when it is at work, has much force." There is NO singing or putting on any type of showy display. The word of God is being twisted and wasted in falsehood. Confess, repent, get clean in God's eyes and get HEALED!
Until we swim on our own we grasp at whatever straw is floating.
1
Excellent article on the opium of the poor. But is false hope better than reality? Doctor "feel good, everything gonna be all right" psychiatry is short lived with the resultant letdown for many situations and people. God is the biggest placebo so far; but placebos can only go so far. A real God would heal some amputees. Maybe at least one a year out of 7 billion people? Oh wait, I'm so stupid. He works in mysterious ways is the ludicrous excuse from the simpleminded. This article shows the same old mass psychology carnival show that has been around a long time. Only the audiences and language spoken change.
6
religion is one of numerous stories humans tell themselves. all these numerous stories have a level of fundamental efficiency. likewise, all can be subject to the worst whims of humans as well.
anyone who tells you otherwise is selling something....
anyone who tells you otherwise is selling something....
1
You are correct, and this type of falsehood is a direct insult to God and a tragic waste for the victims of this. Almighty God is very real, very much alive, and He makes it very clear that if we turn around from our wicked ways and follow His Son and Heir, Jesus Christ, and obey his word (teachings) we ARE healed. God has healed me and my entire family, both physically and spiritually. For those who are truly interested, please see John chapter 5 concerning sickness and sin.
On the one hand, these families are just trying to do the best they can with what they have. On the other hand, I find it sad that the kids are being exploited by their parents and that they, not their parents, have more common sense. It is telling that all three kids want to be educated and work in jobs that help people yet their parents continue to want them to preach, in other words, continue to act as the family ATM.
3
True... yet not that different than the Ivy school legacy families that impose their values and expectations, on their kids, who often sublimate their own wishes and dreams... It happens in every culture and at every economic level. It's a complicated issue that each family has to deal with - what is best for the children, taking into account the family unit and the values held dear?
What this little girls knows is that the faith these poor sick people are anointed with is what heals them not her . She is only a little girl ,with sight to see and so many future temptations that steal spiritual sight and the faith poor sick people have is stolen from them the price of being human in a world out to turn them into spider legged cockroaches climbing the ladder for the ruler of this world who offered Jesus all the kingdoms and powers this world had to offer
Look at Steve hill in 1997" Were seeing miraculous healings ,cancerous tumors disappear, and drug addicts immediately delivered. So much money poured in . He owned two houses worth a million a piece. What happened to make him leave? And then he dies of cancer
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brownsville_Revival
Look at Steve hill in 1997" Were seeing miraculous healings ,cancerous tumors disappear, and drug addicts immediately delivered. So much money poured in . He owned two houses worth a million a piece. What happened to make him leave? And then he dies of cancer
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brownsville_Revival
1
Preaching since the age of 3, not age of 2? Preaching what? Not preaching "Be baptized, and be saved". Schlepping DVD's after the service; notice the attendants who grab those falling backward are the same actors helping Toufik Benedictus "Benny" Hinn in the white suit: people always fall backward with locked knees because it's easier to pick them up that way .... These jokers prove God has a sense of humor, in letting the claim the Holy Ghost.
2
Hmmm....the devil cloaking himself in the innocence of children. King Yeshua said many will come in His name. These people worship a false jesus. Because of this, it is no wonder that their children have fallen victim to the devil. I believe Yahweh still heals today, but not like this. Not because a community or city's healthcare system is lacking. Yahweh heals when He wants to, to whom He wants, where He wants. What these parents are doing and allowing their children to do shows a huge deficit in discernment. Especially if they speak in tongues at this church. At Pentecost in Acts, the apostles were speaking actual languages to be able to spread The Gospel and Grow The Church...all for the UNBELIEVER! Tongues were for the unbeliever and unfortunately many people who speak in tongues today do not know and can not tell you what they are saying. This practice can induce the manifestation of evil, like this article. People take things too far and then say it is The Holy Spirit doing these things, or The Holy Spirit showed me a vision. The Holy Spirit will ALWAYS direct a person to King Yeshua/Christ Jesus. Too much attention is paid to The Holy Spirit in Pentecostal Churches and NOT ENOUGH is paid to Christ Jesus on the throne. The One who died for us taking our due punishment on Himself so we can walk away debt free. Things like this are why people sneer when Christianity is mentioned. Christianity is not a religion, IT is having a personal relationship with The Master.
I doubt if the Brazilian Pentecostals really care what all the mockers, doubters, intellectual snobs, and burned out reprobates think. Judgmental pseudo-intellectuals have always been around. Time will tell what is real and what isn't. There are many mysteries they cannot explain. Let them find fault with their own bitter attitudes. LIfe goes on without them. Hurray!
1
Some commenters seem so condescending, smug and smirky in their "rationality" not being aware that their dogmatic belief in rationalism and science to explain the human condition is the opposite side of the same coin where the rest of humanity believes in some kind of supernatural force to help them to explain and cope with their daily lives. In my country of birth we have a popular saying that "belief kills and belief cures" -- the essence of being human is to seek understanding of the natural world around him
Yes, belief is important but that belief does not need to be in God or some supernatural deity. I believe in science and the reason why is because it works and when it doesn't, it's self-correcting. Scientists look objectively at what doesn't work and try to improve on it. The man and his wife with HIV in the article? I would be happy to hear they're cured of their illness merely because of belief and the "laying on of hands" but the chances of that happening without medication is extremely low.
3
i am an American living here in Africa and I can tell you there are quite a few where I live who had AIDS and were completely cured by Jesus. to my knowledge there is no medicine that can cure AIDS-only manage it. As scripture says,'without faith it is impossible to please God". it does take faith and trust to connect with God through His Holy Spirit. people waiting for God to jump through hoops to prove Himself to them will be waiting a long time-to their own loss...
Churches in Brazil are profitable. I'm afraid of the future. Everyday I see videos on Facebook showing parents inducing their children to act like adult pastors.
I don't have a religion but a lot of christians almost force me to believe in their religion. It's like I can't have the right to choose my own.
I don't have a religion but a lot of christians almost force me to believe in their religion. It's like I can't have the right to choose my own.
5
Sadly, you are right. You could say that at least it is better than drugs or prostitution. But you are still selling fairy tales for profit. Their preaching might help some people temporarily by inducing a placebo effect (It is well established that a strong faith/positive attitude can result in a better outcome from an illness). These kids seemed to want to go on to do things with their lives (become doctors and psychologists) to continue helping others, but the parents want that preaching $$$. It is shameful how the church (AOG) exploits these people. It isn't enough to fill their heads with visions of doctrinal sugar plums. They have to make them into modern versions of Marjoe. At least they fare better than the children in Africa where pentecostals have convinced the flock that many of their children are witches.
2
For those that do not believe, this is stupid, because they simply do not understand. That doesn't mean they are dumb or disabled, they are simply ignorant. For those who love the Lord and His presence and His power, this is beautiful story of God's faithfulness. What a pleasure to read and enjoy seeing how God is faithful everywhere. He is worthy to be praised and honored. Our Lord is good, He loves people, He rewards those who believe and love him. And even the haters don't know Jesus intercedes for them.
I am so blessed to hear the testimonies like these. New York Times should get more people reading their stuff, because they are trying to be inclusive, not exclusive.
God is good. Have a blessed day.
I am so blessed to hear the testimonies like these. New York Times should get more people reading their stuff, because they are trying to be inclusive, not exclusive.
God is good. Have a blessed day.
Stun...will God bless ignorance? Will God embrace and dwell amongst ignorance? I think that God is above all things; He does not dwell where man dwells. Look at us...devisive, crafty, delusional, and unrepentant.
God is faithful everywhere even when man is unfaithful. Let's see if the NYTimes can locate former child preachers to document their stories today. I would tend to believe their outcomes are predictable. Used. Washed up. And living a life completely opposite of God' s intended purpose for their lives.
God is faithful everywhere even when man is unfaithful. Let's see if the NYTimes can locate former child preachers to document their stories today. I would tend to believe their outcomes are predictable. Used. Washed up. And living a life completely opposite of God' s intended purpose for their lives.
1
Religion is man's way of manipulating our inherent spirituality. BUT, it can also be a tool for us to access our soul,in spite of our circumstances. Dr. Phyllis Meadow said, "Hope is the denial of reality". Sometimes we need a neutralizer to survive; if only in the moment.
For doubters regarding miracles, one only has to see and hear 'Nick Vuijicic', an evangelist. He has many videos on Youtube. This man is LIVING proof of miracles. He was born without arms and legs and has a a wonderful life. Jesus changed his life...incredible story.
Miracles are only phenomena that science has not yet explained. They are not evidence for the great sky fairy.
3
Did Jesus replace his arms and legs? Now that would be a miracle that I could buy.
3
Science has to take a pass on miracles, because by definition they are one time events... the scientific method with observation and repetition can't be applied.
I dont think this article is about politics.Brazil always has been a religious country ,and despite of economy,religion reaches everyone .Just because you live in a rich country or whatever is ur educacional level,believe it or not is almost a choice.If all goes well in ur country or in ur family u still need God.And His name is the first one u claim when u need something.
At first it made me cringe to see these children being used in this manner because obviously it is for the benefit of the adults who are their handlers, who take the money earned. But I guess it is better than working in a sweat shop. And then I realized if you can get money from people, like it were a magic show, like Johnny Carson when he was young, then by all means do it. Just don't expect to host a late night talk show. Simply entertaining the masses... or at least me.
2
MarJo Gortner.
3
Sorry. Marjoe Gortner.
1
". His parents claimed that the boy had received a vision from God during a bath, and started preaching. Marjoe later said this was a fictional story that his parents forced him to repeat. He claimed they compelled him to do this by using mock-drowning episodes; they did not beat him as they did not want to leave bruises that might be noticed during his many public appearances."
On sept 21st 1985 a heard a voice of a woman said swim out in the ocean and you will meet me and I did like a fool for her love as the sun set . She said I was a great King but after swimming out death was all around me and she said why should i not turn you into a liitle fish . There was no life in me left as I obeyed swimming down down down into this strange green tunnel and this I did three times this DEMON thta kept kissing me on the cheek and when I went into the ocean like a LION by the time the experience was over I was just a liitle lamb naked somehow south the cresent moon setting and a liitle blue bathing suit to put on after this experience that changed my life and great battles began that have lasted years with great victories besides great dungeons and great hells released leading to heaven
On sept 21st 1985 a heard a voice of a woman said swim out in the ocean and you will meet me and I did like a fool for her love as the sun set . She said I was a great King but after swimming out death was all around me and she said why should i not turn you into a liitle fish . There was no life in me left as I obeyed swimming down down down into this strange green tunnel and this I did three times this DEMON thta kept kissing me on the cheek and when I went into the ocean like a LION by the time the experience was over I was just a liitle lamb naked somehow south the cresent moon setting and a liitle blue bathing suit to put on after this experience that changed my life and great battles began that have lasted years with great victories besides great dungeons and great hells released leading to heaven
Brazil was founded by colonialist catholics who set the stage for this infestation of pentecostalism.
8
Would you care to explain the whys, whos and wherefores of your claim? With sources?
How come you live in Juiz de Fora and need Brazilian history explained to you? What kind of schools did you attend?
Just as simply believing that a wind doesn't exist because we cannot see one is no different from believing God doesn't exist because you can't see one...
1
You and I can feel the wind even though we cannot see it. We can measure it's effects. That is very different from not seeing God.
6
been preaching since she was three and is now eleven. Can you say exploitation and brain washing?
8
I am against evangelicalism of all types. This sounds like using children to propagate Pentacostalism in Brazil. Brainwashing is what I call this.
6
I don't know why people would be surprised or upset by this story. The charismatic Christian denominations are GREAT theater. Miracles, saved prostitutes, the "touch" of god from a 6 year old. FANTASTIC!
There really seems to be no limits on what people will believe or accept as truth. These are needy people. Maybe I'm just a jaded, western, elitist. But this is really just about money and how to exploit others "hope". Wherever (in the world) this happens it is the same old story: People with desperate lives, a preacher with a miracle who has the anointing touch, and of hte necessity to build a church community to fight evil (which requires a donation of course).
The great American version of this is Jimmy Swaggart. Who ministry - which is entirely a family run business - is making a comeback again. It doesn't matter that he is corrupt, spends church donations extravagantly, or that he lies. He and his family have figured out a way to build a TV network! In order to save lives and fight evil! Which requires over 1 million dollars a month! And this ministry is still getting this money!
It is the same thing in Brazil -- in this case the hook are the kids. These charismatic denominations are all the same. A great hook, a good show, and an evil entity (fill in the blank) that must be battled. And this battle requires money.
There really seems to be no limits on what people will believe or accept as truth. These are needy people. Maybe I'm just a jaded, western, elitist. But this is really just about money and how to exploit others "hope". Wherever (in the world) this happens it is the same old story: People with desperate lives, a preacher with a miracle who has the anointing touch, and of hte necessity to build a church community to fight evil (which requires a donation of course).
The great American version of this is Jimmy Swaggart. Who ministry - which is entirely a family run business - is making a comeback again. It doesn't matter that he is corrupt, spends church donations extravagantly, or that he lies. He and his family have figured out a way to build a TV network! In order to save lives and fight evil! Which requires over 1 million dollars a month! And this ministry is still getting this money!
It is the same thing in Brazil -- in this case the hook are the kids. These charismatic denominations are all the same. A great hook, a good show, and an evil entity (fill in the blank) that must be battled. And this battle requires money.
12
you are not elitist or western. You are ignorant and not informed. Religion and faith has been human companion for thousands of years. You are simply missing your spiritual self. This is not about money, but money is par of our lives and money and commerce has always existed because that makes us intelligent beings, except the dumb people like you. As far as the show, it takes much effort to make a good show. And art and entertainment is what makes us different from animals. Go learn.
"There really seems to be no limits on what people will believe or accept as truth."
Religion: that set of rules by which I know I'm ok...and you're not.
Apply those two to your own Gruber-identified stupidity, or your acceptance of IPCC "settled-science".
You are so superior.
Religion: that set of rules by which I know I'm ok...and you're not.
Apply those two to your own Gruber-identified stupidity, or your acceptance of IPCC "settled-science".
You are so superior.
You don't have to go to Brazil to see this. Right here all over the USA the working-poor minorities are being preached to about "The Gospel" and how everything IS the individuals fault through the sins of drinking and carousing and failing to read the "Good Book" and not attending church every Sunday.
The Powers That Be are trying to cover all of the bases as they continue to hoard all of the riches of this country.
The Powers That Be are trying to cover all of the bases as they continue to hoard all of the riches of this country.
6
Evangelists young and old witness the faith of Jesus Christ as evangelicals preach Jesus repent and accept Jesus in our life. Not only in Brazil but in the USA gatherings in evangelical churches praise God in what a friend we have in Jesus.
Faith is divided when Osama bin Laden is compare with the Dalai Lama. A religion like Islam could stand a face lift in the public eye and look at the Christian Baptist in Haiti.
If you read American history, you find that our Founders were Christians and the development of U.S. government was based on teachings from the Holy Bible including oath of office.
Separation of church and state is needed and is not a problem if government does not enforce a religious beliefs upon it's citizens and citizens have freedom to express their religious beliefs in public and with liberty of expression.
Faith is divided when Osama bin Laden is compare with the Dalai Lama. A religion like Islam could stand a face lift in the public eye and look at the Christian Baptist in Haiti.
If you read American history, you find that our Founders were Christians and the development of U.S. government was based on teachings from the Holy Bible including oath of office.
Separation of church and state is needed and is not a problem if government does not enforce a religious beliefs upon it's citizens and citizens have freedom to express their religious beliefs in public and with liberty of expression.
Right on Ali. Allow people to believe God. Allow people freedom of worship. This will only make them healthier and stronger.
The uneducated, instead of reading and learning, have always been quick to embrace mysticism/religion/gods and such expedient quick-fixes for all their problems. Such needy people often get exploited, especially by organized religion.
I gave up organized religion many years ago, and have learned everything there is to know about the opportunities and limits we have here on our home planet. I have read a lot of science books and the history of astronomy to gain knowledge. I accept the truths; the natural laws that governs our universe. And knowing these truths has provided great comfort to me. More and more educated people are realizing that religion is not much more than a dangerously narrow sentimentality, and, as a result, are leaving it.
I gave up organized religion many years ago, and have learned everything there is to know about the opportunities and limits we have here on our home planet. I have read a lot of science books and the history of astronomy to gain knowledge. I accept the truths; the natural laws that governs our universe. And knowing these truths has provided great comfort to me. More and more educated people are realizing that religion is not much more than a dangerously narrow sentimentality, and, as a result, are leaving it.
6
Too much self-congratulation here. You think impoverished people just need to get off their behinds and read and learn? First, they have to be taught how to read, and be taught how to learn. What are their actual educational opportunities?
1
Robert, i will disagree. People who have made most significant advances in science and learning were the ones with very deep rooted faith and beliefs. People who are politically polarized like you are either ignorant, or choose to side with an anti-religion and anti-faith point of view. This is your choice. We respect your choice. But don't lie about uneducated only believing. Educated believe, because faith and beliefs is part of our being. We can choose to ignore it, but it is still there. That's what makes us human.
A self-proclaimed know-it-all.
You don't run into that too often.
You don't run into that too often.
The Pentecostal religion has all the trappings of a cult. Cults tend to thrive in poor, uneducated borderline animist countries such as Brazil. Only mentally challenged people would follow an 11-year-old kid as a God sent messenger in the hands of charlatan parents, just as an army of young people followed an adolescent Moony. As long as the world has uneducated population there will be con artists to exploit them. It is astonishing that such backward thinking still exists. It is very very tragic and pathetic to watch.
7
J&G, if you choose to believe different, doesn't make you any better. Your beliefs can easily be called a cult in the same way and it's pathetic to watch. You know what is the worst? You and your buddies of anti-faith have been shoving atheism down people's throats and you use tax-payer dollars against tax payers. So who is exploiting the uneducated? People like you. You choose to propagate your godless beliefs and push it on people. You are the ones being a cult.
I don't think you would say that USA is a poor, uneducated, borderline and animist country. However, this kind of thing is very much usual in America than in Brazil, where 80 percent of the population is of catholic faith. Besides, the spread of pentecostalism in Brazil is fault of American preachers that were there to propagate this type of belief that first emerged in America.
3
Well, I will say it. America is an uneducated and animist country. Poll after poll shows this to be fact, not opinion. Of course, most are educated well enough to do their jobs and professions well, but their intelligence is compartmentalized when it comes to knowledge of how our universe and world actually work as we now understand in 2015, knowledge of psychology and the natural sciences. The latter separate fiction from fact, which is why they are so spectacularly successful and why we have the advanced world we now live in. But they do require study beyond high school level, which few Americans seem to keep up with. But as a popular poster says: In the Information Age, Ignorance is a Choice. And in the USA, and Brazil, most people choose what is comforting. Whether it is real or true are not relevant. Conviction and certainty and comfort and happy take priority.
1
Occam's razor should be used (look it up).
Both sides of the God/god argument tends to argue emotion and opinion vs fact.
Very simple – are people being healed without a medical explanation?
If they are healed than there must be a supernatural explanation beyond a body’s ability to heal itself – if the body’s ability to heal itself were the case; they would have been healed without prayer. Find one such case!
Even in the USA people are diagnosed with incurable health issues (cancer/etc) and after prayer being reevaluated and given a clean bill of health. The doctors are amazed after the retest – the health issue should not have just gone away. These stories are around the world. Why? That many mistakes? And in some cases the original diagnosis have been confirmed by a second and third independent finding.
I challenge the doubters to put up or shut up.
Notice in this argument – which side is always bitter?
Both sides of the God/god argument tends to argue emotion and opinion vs fact.
Very simple – are people being healed without a medical explanation?
If they are healed than there must be a supernatural explanation beyond a body’s ability to heal itself – if the body’s ability to heal itself were the case; they would have been healed without prayer. Find one such case!
Even in the USA people are diagnosed with incurable health issues (cancer/etc) and after prayer being reevaluated and given a clean bill of health. The doctors are amazed after the retest – the health issue should not have just gone away. These stories are around the world. Why? That many mistakes? And in some cases the original diagnosis have been confirmed by a second and third independent finding.
I challenge the doubters to put up or shut up.
Notice in this argument – which side is always bitter?
1
Ignorance is bliss.
There is sucker born every minute a great thinker once said.
The Pentecostal experience is very real. I was called out of a major dead denomination and filled with the Spirit back in 1982. Since then, I have had a vision and heard an audible voice speak to me while stationed in Okinawa. My wife has had the same experiences as well as many other friends I know. I was in a Latino service last year where 17 were filled with the Spirit. In Mark chapter 16 Jesus said that these signs will follow true believers. After seeing all the negative comments I now know why Jesus said," when the Son of man returns, will he find faith upon the earth?" It is not about religion, it is about a relationship with the Almighty. We must be born again.
I absolutely agree. There is real experience with God. It's available to those who believe and exercise their faith. Bible says, if you believe, you will see the Glory of God. God is a good God and the rewards of spirit led life are countless. The sinless living, the righteous living causes people to be nice, not evil. Bible says not to kill, not to steal, not to covet. If people desire good things, it will only lead to good. but haters and hypocrites will always exist, Lord help them.
The wisdom of God is foolishness to men.
A man came to me in a dream, "Pray for my wife, she has cancer in her leg."
I went to them, crazy as it was, and told them.
A year later she came to me, "I had cancer in my leg."
.
I pity the pinhead academics who are commenting here, whose god is education. It will not save them.
A man came to me in a dream, "Pray for my wife, she has cancer in her leg."
I went to them, crazy as it was, and told them.
A year later she came to me, "I had cancer in my leg."
.
I pity the pinhead academics who are commenting here, whose god is education. It will not save them.
The only "miracle" here is that people still buy into these modern-day deceptions; instead of looking to God, and reading The Bible.
Joel 2:28
"And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:"
These children are a sign that we are indeed in the last days.
"And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:"
These children are a sign that we are indeed in the last days.
2
Evangelism that knows no bounds vs. the church. The irony is sad and humorous all at once. Leave your silly Christian faith and join our religion (shhhh – we don’t call it that, but, well…never mind…). We have many denominations, but progressive/atheist/free thinkers describe us best. Yes, we do require more faith. Questions and skepticism are forbidden. You buy into every aspect of our gospel or you will be shunned. When it comes to exploitation of children we do things that would make the wildest Pentecostal blush. We extract more money from the masses than the largest Christian church ever dreamed of doing. In our religion you will accept dreams, imagination and theories as absolute truth. Logic and science and not allowed – at least not in the original sense – we create our own as we go. We have empirical evidence of every aspect of evolution and climate change – just don’t ask to see it, you must trust us on this. The best thing about it? Zero accountability. When life is done, it is done. Christianity speaks of both a heaven and dark eternal home. Don’t buy it – it is impossible for us to be wrong.
1
Sadly, it's the atheism you just described. And if there are few "controlling" circles and churches, they don't last, because human spirit wants to be free.
I visited Brazil three times and participated as part of a "ministry team" in evangelical churches where physical and emotional healings took place. I saw several deaf people begin to hear, one blind eye opened and many tumors and hernias disappear. One of our teams went and visited a church where a lame person began to walk and a woman on our team with a glass eye came back from the meeting with a regular eye!!! Seeing these things first hand was difficult for me and I kept trying to find a way to explain them as "imaginary". The new eye and deaf hearing were the hardest to ignore. None of these churches had child preachers but they demonstrated the openness of the Brazilians to the idea that Jesus Christ healed when he was on earth and now he is still here and healing and helping people Very simple faith is in them and I think we would see more miracles in our country if people believed in God's effectiveness as much as they believe in the medical profession. The other things about people in these churches is that they care about the suffering of those around them. I met many couples who had taken in children from orphanages and were raising them as their own in spite of the difficulties of helping children who had been terribly abused. I know there are fakes and "the real deal" among the child preachers--just like there are fakes in the medical profession, government, school systems, etc. who don't care about anything but serving themselves.
1
somewhere in this is the true power of God,
Um, no. More like the true power of the Placebo Effect.
Um, no. More like the true power of the Placebo Effect.
what amazing placebos! hernias get a "psychological" healing-you have more faith than the faith healers!
15 “Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves. 16 You will know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes nor figs from thistles, are they? 17 So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 So then, you will know them by their fruits.
21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. 22 Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many [f]miracles?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.’
Matt. 7
21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. 22 Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many [f]miracles?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.’
Matt. 7
1
The cross is foolishness to those who do not believe...but for those who do it is the power of God.
4
What I want to know is the bottom line: Are these people actually physically healed? What are they healed of or from? I don't want faith or pretense. I want tested proof. Are these desperate people getting what they are hoping for?
2
But don't you see, that would be a godless scientific approach.
2
If the weren't getting it, they would not come. the fake can only last so long. My cyclist friend had very disabling accident and was hit by a car. He was given no chance to live. His mother went to one of these meetings and accepted faith and prayed for her son. He recovered completely. My sister had chronic stomach illness for 35 years. She went to a healing meeting in 1990. She was prayed for. She was healed. 25 years later she is still healed and had never had issue with her stomach again. Some things are real, you are not obligated to believe them. But it is a treat when you appreciate the real deal.
There is a plethora of anti-religious bigotry in these comments based on the unwarranted assumption that people of faith are gullible and/or ignorant.
In fact, many of us are well educated, thoughtful people who understand that critical thinking need not lead to philosophical materialism and who understand the implications of atheism for humanity far better than most atheists.
In fact, many of us are well educated, thoughtful people who understand that critical thinking need not lead to philosophical materialism and who understand the implications of atheism for humanity far better than most atheists.
2
I very much suspect you are confounding "materialism" in the philosophical sense (rejection of the idea of supernatural forces) with "materialism" in the sense of greedily accumulating wealth.
Yours truly is an atheist in the first sense, not in the second sense. Does that make a difference to you? I imagine not.
Yours truly is an atheist in the first sense, not in the second sense. Does that make a difference to you? I imagine not.
1
I spent 33 years in the Assembly of God faith that went down in flames because of greed in the pulpit. These children are being manipulated and used...for money. I pray that as the children preachers mature in age and wisdom that they not blame God for the sins of those in leadership.
Google Redeemed Marine. A website that documents greed, corruption, and idolatry in the pulpit.
Google Redeemed Marine. A website that documents greed, corruption, and idolatry in the pulpit.
Just because someone failed doesn't mean everyone failed. Bible says even if everyone failed, God is faithful. So your nick name has more faith than your post lol. Not all AG churches are the way yours was.
"Just think of the tragedy of teaching children not to doubt!"
~ CLARENCE DARROW
(1857 – 1938)
American lawyer and leading member of the American Civil Liberties Union
best known for defending teenage thrill killers Nathan Leopold and Richard Loeb in their trial for murdering 14-year-old Bobby Franks in 1924 and defending John T. Scopes in the so-called "Monkey" Trial in 1925.
"'What a child should never be taught is that you are a Catholic or Muslim child, therefore that is what you believe. That's child abuse."
~ RICHARD DAWKINS
~ CLARENCE DARROW
(1857 – 1938)
American lawyer and leading member of the American Civil Liberties Union
best known for defending teenage thrill killers Nathan Leopold and Richard Loeb in their trial for murdering 14-year-old Bobby Franks in 1924 and defending John T. Scopes in the so-called "Monkey" Trial in 1925.
"'What a child should never be taught is that you are a Catholic or Muslim child, therefore that is what you believe. That's child abuse."
~ RICHARD DAWKINS
5
A tremendous waste of human energy from young brazilians. I'm shamed for my country to have this type of alienation.
Christopher Hitchens in, "god Is Not Great" references the hoax faith healer who participated in a debunking of his con, Marjoe Gortner, the subject of the 1972 Academy Award winning film for best documentary: "Marjoe."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marjoe
It's ok to be credulous and ignorant, not everyone is brilliant. It's not ok to promote credulousness and ignorance, it's criminal.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marjoe
It's ok to be credulous and ignorant, not everyone is brilliant. It's not ok to promote credulousness and ignorance, it's criminal.
4
These Brazilian child preachers of fundamentalist Christianity bring to mind the USA's own Marjo Gortner, who as a phenomenal child preacher railed against sin and "saved" untold numbers of "souls" of nonbelievers and "backsliders" at Pentecostal churches and campground "revivals" in the 1950s and 60s.
Young Marjo's oratorical skills as a "child preacher" enabled his parents and others to exploit the pocketbooks of many a sinner as well. However, as he grew intellectually into an adult, Marjo eventually forsook the religious beliefs of his parents and any that he had himself entertained as a child, but not his oratorical skills as a preacher and exploiter of simpleminded Christian fundamentalists. In fact, he went on to help make an award-winning documentary film, entitled aptly enough "Marjo", in which he pretended to be a "born again Christian" and preacher in order to deliberately and contemptuously exploit hapless Pentecostal congregants.
Since the release of "Marjo" in 1972, we have witnessed the rise and fall of a number of fundamentalist preachers in the US. They all shared the same goal--to get rich--via the same means--the exploitation of people too ill-educated or uneducated to see through the hucksterism of TV and radio preaching and "fundraising". It's sad to see that Brazil is producing its own version of Marjos.
Young Marjo's oratorical skills as a "child preacher" enabled his parents and others to exploit the pocketbooks of many a sinner as well. However, as he grew intellectually into an adult, Marjo eventually forsook the religious beliefs of his parents and any that he had himself entertained as a child, but not his oratorical skills as a preacher and exploiter of simpleminded Christian fundamentalists. In fact, he went on to help make an award-winning documentary film, entitled aptly enough "Marjo", in which he pretended to be a "born again Christian" and preacher in order to deliberately and contemptuously exploit hapless Pentecostal congregants.
Since the release of "Marjo" in 1972, we have witnessed the rise and fall of a number of fundamentalist preachers in the US. They all shared the same goal--to get rich--via the same means--the exploitation of people too ill-educated or uneducated to see through the hucksterism of TV and radio preaching and "fundraising". It's sad to see that Brazil is producing its own version of Marjos.
38
Funny, the only mention of "fundamentalist" is yours, which isn't surprising because the article isn't about fundamentalist Christianity, nor is it about Marjo Gortner or American televangelists.
But thank you for sharing anyway.
But thank you for sharing anyway.
1
They actually remind me of the "environmental activist" and "animal rights" children recently featured on a television documentary. In that program, the children were just as radically "evangelical" with their message as the children at any Pentecostal congregation.
The difference, of course, is that those on the Left tend to think that free speech and the right to self-identity is limited to people who embrace an ideology that they agree with.
The difference, of course, is that those on the Left tend to think that free speech and the right to self-identity is limited to people who embrace an ideology that they agree with.
1
Who are YOU to judge all these Children????? You claim they "ALL" did this for the money. In TRUTH, YOU DO NOT know this. You of a closed heart. Are you mere worm food in the end? Quantum Physics proves multiple dimensions, so who are YOU to judge? Do you know of the other dimensions?
Luke 6:37
“Judge not, and you will not be judged; condemn not, and you will not be condemned; forgive, and you will be forgiven."
Luke 6:37
“Judge not, and you will not be judged; condemn not, and you will not be condemned; forgive, and you will be forgiven."
1
Religions?
Business as usual.
That is why I am a Free Thinker who do not accept any religion.
Business as usual.
That is why I am a Free Thinker who do not accept any religion.
21
Yes and we all know how often anything truly of value is Free. Maybe read G.K. Chesterton and see how a real thinker operates.
There are better reasons than reaction to religion.
you claim to be a free thinker whilst claiming your exclusions...
Fascinating story, but a deeper look at the claims of healing would lend more credibility. The crowd at the services clearly believes they are real, so it seems quite relevant whether these are plausibly placebo cures or out and out fakery. Widespread genuine miracle would be an bigger story than you present, while fakery says something important about harm to these child preachers and their parishioners.
Would you have treated a non-Christian religion so credulously? Or a televangelist?
Would you have treated a non-Christian religion so credulously? Or a televangelist?
5
The story is not written in a credulous mode. If you thought the question was whether the "miracles" are real, you may have missed the point.
I guess the reporter could have followed up, for instance, on the guy who expected his HIV tests to change from positive to negative. But I think it's taken for granted most readers know the answer to that question, and actually tracking him down and asking him this would just be cruel.
I guess the reporter could have followed up, for instance, on the guy who expected his HIV tests to change from positive to negative. But I think it's taken for granted most readers know the answer to that question, and actually tracking him down and asking him this would just be cruel.
17
So what mode was it written in? Exploit the credulous like watching animals in a zoo?
For as many eons as God has been reaching out to people to bring hope, healing and salvation, the very real devil(the one that has succeeded in duping people that he is not real) has worked overtime to discredit every good work of God. he had succeeded mostly. When God called me out of LA many years ago to come to Africa I had no idea what to expect. All I knew was I loved God, my life belonged to Jesus and as long as He was able to make it clear to me His plan for me I was all in. Since I have been here in E. Africa I have seen thousands come to Christ. I have watched them encounter the only Peace that lasts, and I have seen changes in people-some small, some very big-depending on the heart of the person. I have also seen God use me to pray for many for healing, and I have seen Jesus heal 240 people in the past 3 months. Some are small like a migrain, a pain in the back, neck, whatever. But others are significant like long term ulcers, blood infections, and finally being able to get pregnant again. Most are instant-on the spot. I was as surprised as anyone when I watched God touch people, but now I count it a privilege to see people-often with no money who have suffered for years without going to the doc(no cash) get truly healed. many work in local stores around here, so I see them weeks and months later, and they are all (so far) still fully healed. One had the problem come back-no sure why-in any case its between God and the person, so....God is real. Jesus heals. Truth.
All the comments have been directed at the exploitation of the child preachers. What about the diabetic who is now convinced that insulin is no longer necessary? Or the cancer patient who might stop treatment and then find their situation worsened? This is plain chicanery and worse - it can lead to neglect of treatments that are proven and cause more disability and even death.
There is no doubt that faith can "heal" some disorders, and give solace to those whose situation is not amenable to treatment, for various reasons. But the main problem is poverty and lack of public services and faith cannot resolve them.
There is no doubt that faith can "heal" some disorders, and give solace to those whose situation is not amenable to treatment, for various reasons. But the main problem is poverty and lack of public services and faith cannot resolve them.
13
Religion is an old trick to control, scare and manipulate the masses. Educate yourself, boycott extremism. no religion in politics.
22
Not being one familiar with the Holy Scriptures you would not know that the Bible says that the Physician gets his profession from God, and to be healed one must do 3 things, pray and ask God to heal, consult the doctor, and follow his advice and use whatever healing prescriptions he advises. To read the truth for yourself look in The Book of Sirach, chapter 38. This is old testament wisdom. The modern concept of faith healing is not in the least Biblical. Expecting a miracle from God as the only healing is tempting God, and testing God, both are definitely Un-Biblical.
It is however quite common to ask a Catholic priest for the anointing of the sick, something every believer can seek that can be very helpful in dealing with old age, infirmity, and disease.
It is however quite common to ask a Catholic priest for the anointing of the sick, something every believer can seek that can be very helpful in dealing with old age, infirmity, and disease.
To understand the 'enormous rise of Pentecostalism', especially in Africa, South America and also China, see Dr Peter Berger's talk: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fu66gNre4OI
It is a fascinating phenomenon!
In fact, people who convert to Pentecostalism tend to remain strong in family relationships, tend to begin to accumulate wealth and to focus their energy on working toward a middle-class life-style, while avoiding so many pitfalls. The understructure of Pentecostalism is, as it had been in Europe, the Bible and thus Christian ethics are part-and-parcel of the transformation of Pentecostal communities. There is ALSO a deep superstitious element but then 'superstition' in this sense is part of the base of Christianity and Catholicism.
To understand how poor people, in difficult circumstances, transform their own lives, requires a less cynical eye. It is also possible to suggest that those who come across so adamantly 'atheist' (who do not comprehend the religious motive as it occurs in culture) have channelled a variety of religious frenzy into their extreme liberalism and 'progressivism'. Rationalism and 'atheism' thus show a superstitious face, too.
It is better I think to trust the good sense of these people, and not to assume that we of the so-called First World should stand over and judge acidly the strategies of those in Second- and Third-world circumstances.
A wee touch of humility is needed perhaps?
It is a fascinating phenomenon!
In fact, people who convert to Pentecostalism tend to remain strong in family relationships, tend to begin to accumulate wealth and to focus their energy on working toward a middle-class life-style, while avoiding so many pitfalls. The understructure of Pentecostalism is, as it had been in Europe, the Bible and thus Christian ethics are part-and-parcel of the transformation of Pentecostal communities. There is ALSO a deep superstitious element but then 'superstition' in this sense is part of the base of Christianity and Catholicism.
To understand how poor people, in difficult circumstances, transform their own lives, requires a less cynical eye. It is also possible to suggest that those who come across so adamantly 'atheist' (who do not comprehend the religious motive as it occurs in culture) have channelled a variety of religious frenzy into their extreme liberalism and 'progressivism'. Rationalism and 'atheism' thus show a superstitious face, too.
It is better I think to trust the good sense of these people, and not to assume that we of the so-called First World should stand over and judge acidly the strategies of those in Second- and Third-world circumstances.
A wee touch of humility is needed perhaps?
15
"To understand how poor people, in difficult circumstances, transform their own lives, requires a less cynical eye."
I think it needs a far more cynical eye than it usually gets. It is nice for people to move up in the world etc., but I suggest we remain "cynical" about the effects of fake cures on people who have actual health problems. Less than helpful. Does it occur to you, the guy who tested HIV positive and now believes he's cured, may stop taking his medication?
May I ask also why you would imagine that "adamant atheists" do not "comprehend the religious motive as it occurs in culture"? Many, if not most, atheists grew up in religious cultures.
And may I ask why you advise us how to "understand poor people," as if none of them could possibly be reading this themselves?
"It is better I think to trust the good sense of these people, and not to assume that we of the so-called First World should stand over and judge acidly the strategies of those in Second- and Third-world circumstances."
Who's doing that? These child preachers and their families take their lineage directly from the US televangelists (one of them cites Jimmy Swaggart as his hero!) This isn't a First versus Third World thing. Many in the "First World" are equally in the grip of these exploitive belief systems and institutions, even if the South American version looks more colorful to North American sensibilities. We can't have forgotten Tammy Faye ...
I think it needs a far more cynical eye than it usually gets. It is nice for people to move up in the world etc., but I suggest we remain "cynical" about the effects of fake cures on people who have actual health problems. Less than helpful. Does it occur to you, the guy who tested HIV positive and now believes he's cured, may stop taking his medication?
May I ask also why you would imagine that "adamant atheists" do not "comprehend the religious motive as it occurs in culture"? Many, if not most, atheists grew up in religious cultures.
And may I ask why you advise us how to "understand poor people," as if none of them could possibly be reading this themselves?
"It is better I think to trust the good sense of these people, and not to assume that we of the so-called First World should stand over and judge acidly the strategies of those in Second- and Third-world circumstances."
Who's doing that? These child preachers and their families take their lineage directly from the US televangelists (one of them cites Jimmy Swaggart as his hero!) This isn't a First versus Third World thing. Many in the "First World" are equally in the grip of these exploitive belief systems and institutions, even if the South American version looks more colorful to North American sensibilities. We can't have forgotten Tammy Faye ...
5
Karl Marx who was a jewish once said that religion is the opium of the masses
Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false
“Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it, you'd have good people doing good things and evil people doing bad things, but for good people to do bad things, it takes religion.” Steven Weinberg-Nobel laureate physicist who was also jewish.
Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false
“Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it, you'd have good people doing good things and evil people doing bad things, but for good people to do bad things, it takes religion.” Steven Weinberg-Nobel laureate physicist who was also jewish.
15
Actually Karl Marx 'convoited'. He married a Protestant woman. Still, I would agree that Mark definitely comes out of Jewish structures.
It is interesting to consider Marx as Bertrand Russell does:
Yahweh = Dialectical Materialism; The Messiah = Marx; The Elect = The Proletariat; The Church = The Communist Party; The Second Coming = The Revolution; Hell = Punishment of the Capitalists; The Millennium = The Communist Commonwealth.
It is an interesting perspective at least and would seem to have somethings to say to some aspects of political liberalism. When the upper surface of religionism is cut away, religionism tends to submerge itself and shows up in unusual ways.
Additional note: It is the secular regimes of the 20th century that in terms of sheer harm to the human body exceed any other.
It is interesting to consider Marx as Bertrand Russell does:
Yahweh = Dialectical Materialism; The Messiah = Marx; The Elect = The Proletariat; The Church = The Communist Party; The Second Coming = The Revolution; Hell = Punishment of the Capitalists; The Millennium = The Communist Commonwealth.
It is an interesting perspective at least and would seem to have somethings to say to some aspects of political liberalism. When the upper surface of religionism is cut away, religionism tends to submerge itself and shows up in unusual ways.
Additional note: It is the secular regimes of the 20th century that in terms of sheer harm to the human body exceed any other.
3
Most people in the U.S. and Europe will read this as a well popularized scam. But when you believe, it is all too obvious that somewhere in this is the true power of God, albeit somewhat diluted by charlatans who join in like the people in New York City who jump aboard a city bus after it crashes to claim some injury. I know that God exists, and I also know that God is only good. The children have not been as corrupted by the ever present evil of this world, so they naturally can be the conduits used by Christ. The simple, and the uneducated, and the poor and humble are often the ones chosen for such roles. The three peasant children of Fatima, Portugal 98 years ago were chosen in the same way. To know who and what is truly, " Of God " we must employ the wisdom Christ gave us, which was simple, direct, and easily understood. Christ said that we can know what is, 'Of God' and what is not, by the fruit it bears. " Good Trees bear good Fruit ", no fruit or rotten fruit is never 'of God'. You poor souls corrupted by your love of material goods, money and who never pray will find this impossible, but God acts in ways that men rarely can understand, and the Creator of all that is seen and unseen is going to win in the end, and the faithless and the blind and deaf will hear and see the power of God's goodness and in Brazil it may just be delivered through the beautiful young souls we read about here.
I applaud the NYT for once providing a non-atheist article.
I applaud the NYT for once providing a non-atheist article.
11
Agreed. When sick or dying people recover, it is a clear testament to the power of prayer. And when these same sick or dying people do not recover, it is simply ....'god's will'. It's not that prayer is futile or doesn't make a hill of beans difference...oh no...it's that everything is god's will. In which case, why bother praying, if in the end, everything is 'god's will'?? (god I love how religious fanatics have an explanation for everything. If it's good, it's 'the power of prayer'....a 'miracle'. If it's bad, ah, it's 'god's will'....
Well done. There is no peace like the true peace Jesus brings. yes, there are imposters, fakes, chalatans-always have been, always will be. That is how our adversary plays people so easily to give them the ammo to say "see, I knew there was nothing to that'. But in throwing the baby out with the bathwater, people throw away the only true hope for mankind-the God who loves them and has made a way for them to enjoy the fullness of life that can only be gotten through the Holy Spirit. I was a non-believer until I met Jesus through His Spirit-in my heart. that resolved a lot for me and got me on track. Now 37 years later everything is that much more rich and beautiful-even after my years here in Africa-God is amazing!
@Ed, do you believe that the trappings of religion are never used to exploit or harm anyone? Ever?
1
Delusion, insanity and denial supplemented by ignorance and need to fulfill a life with little meaning, hope or future.
Yes, there is a Santa Claus, Virginia and a Mickey Mouse and an Easter Bunny. But cures to their ills will not be found in blind faith but by eleiminating the 1% who live well. They need to change the personal, economic, political and social environments.
If there was ever a testimonial to Marx's '..religion is the opiate of the people..." this article is proof.
There are no mansions beyond the sky for those whose belief is that what they get here is what they deserve. The McMansions are all taken already by the 1% who have their mansions on Earth.
My only serious question about this house of horrors story, "Would any cures be considered covered medical care under the Patient Safety and Affordable Care Act and thereby made reimburseable? If so, there are a lot of soul suckers who could import these kids under the appropriate INS sections (H-1 visa) as health and miracle maker immigrant workers needed in the USA whose functions cannot be met by present American labor tent faux preachers.
The two tipoffs to the delusion, insanity and denial include a request that phones be turned off so that 'miracles' will not be affected and the "Sisters and brothers, maybe something is afflicting you." followed by Jesus wants to hear from you.
The real miracle is the mobile phone! I am sure Jesus would not be limited by a phone call. Sounds suspicious!
Yes, there is a Santa Claus, Virginia and a Mickey Mouse and an Easter Bunny. But cures to their ills will not be found in blind faith but by eleiminating the 1% who live well. They need to change the personal, economic, political and social environments.
If there was ever a testimonial to Marx's '..religion is the opiate of the people..." this article is proof.
There are no mansions beyond the sky for those whose belief is that what they get here is what they deserve. The McMansions are all taken already by the 1% who have their mansions on Earth.
My only serious question about this house of horrors story, "Would any cures be considered covered medical care under the Patient Safety and Affordable Care Act and thereby made reimburseable? If so, there are a lot of soul suckers who could import these kids under the appropriate INS sections (H-1 visa) as health and miracle maker immigrant workers needed in the USA whose functions cannot be met by present American labor tent faux preachers.
The two tipoffs to the delusion, insanity and denial include a request that phones be turned off so that 'miracles' will not be affected and the "Sisters and brothers, maybe something is afflicting you." followed by Jesus wants to hear from you.
The real miracle is the mobile phone! I am sure Jesus would not be limited by a phone call. Sounds suspicious!
6
It seems to me that your comment illustrates how Marxian thinking functions as a rationalistic 'acid' applied too generally to a significant part of the human experience: religious life. It is wise to understand---in any case I would propose it as possible---that religious sentiment is part of human psyche and is never excoriated. Religious sentiment seeks a holistic understanding of man's place in the cosmos and some part of that has incorporated, and likely always will incorporate, supernatural and metaphysical speculations and beliefs. What Marxian rationalists would do well to understand is how Marxian rationalism has and does function religiously, and with its cutting tools and impelled by its religious certainties, begins to cut into social fabrics. It is a wiser approach, in my view, to understand religious sentiment, and superstitious sentiment, and to understand how deeply we have all been informed by them. Then, the task is to purify religious sentiments toward higher objectives.
The use of terms like 'delusion, insanity and denial' as they turn their gaze on OTHERS, I am inclined to desire to turn the mirror around. It is very difficult to say with any certainty who is 'rational and sane' in a world with rather mad streaks running through it. A life lived religiously, and ethically, in a strong familial environment where persons are respected and valued, even if it involves superstitiousness, does not seem more insane than many secular lives I observe.
The use of terms like 'delusion, insanity and denial' as they turn their gaze on OTHERS, I am inclined to desire to turn the mirror around. It is very difficult to say with any certainty who is 'rational and sane' in a world with rather mad streaks running through it. A life lived religiously, and ethically, in a strong familial environment where persons are respected and valued, even if it involves superstitiousness, does not seem more insane than many secular lives I observe.
6
Eugenio J.:
As I said and your comments seem to imply:
delusion, insanity and denial rules the religious airwaves. But maybe you can explain: Inquisition. Copernicus. Galileo, Darwin, Crusades, sexual abuse. beheading, war against Native Americans (here) and indigenous people (there), slavery, denial of women rights, anti-gay, anti-abortion, self-immolation, suicide bombers, ethnic and religious cleansing, Earth-is-Center-of Universe, carpet bombing, war of (insert name and try not to be able to connected to some religious impostor), Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan, -in fact name a part of the world where so-called peace loving religious nations have not been involved in war; Pakistan and India, Israel and the Arab states, Catholic Europe and the Jews relationships for 2,000 years, Vietnam, dinosaurs living when people did but not prior to 4004 B.C., and the list goes on.
People are given by religious leaders enough false reasons to fight with each other and not enough encouragement to survive together. To say that some non-believers did horrible things is not justification for those who claim religious rights over others because of their claimed but false ethical and moral superiority.
People suffer because of religion more often than not. Maybe not.
People do not need a god or gods. They need to try to understand the world they live in and seek ways to live together. Religion has shown that it is not the way.
And now back to Yogi Bear, Snow White, the Grinch, and so forth.
As I said and your comments seem to imply:
delusion, insanity and denial rules the religious airwaves. But maybe you can explain: Inquisition. Copernicus. Galileo, Darwin, Crusades, sexual abuse. beheading, war against Native Americans (here) and indigenous people (there), slavery, denial of women rights, anti-gay, anti-abortion, self-immolation, suicide bombers, ethnic and religious cleansing, Earth-is-Center-of Universe, carpet bombing, war of (insert name and try not to be able to connected to some religious impostor), Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan, -in fact name a part of the world where so-called peace loving religious nations have not been involved in war; Pakistan and India, Israel and the Arab states, Catholic Europe and the Jews relationships for 2,000 years, Vietnam, dinosaurs living when people did but not prior to 4004 B.C., and the list goes on.
People are given by religious leaders enough false reasons to fight with each other and not enough encouragement to survive together. To say that some non-believers did horrible things is not justification for those who claim religious rights over others because of their claimed but false ethical and moral superiority.
People suffer because of religion more often than not. Maybe not.
People do not need a god or gods. They need to try to understand the world they live in and seek ways to live together. Religion has shown that it is not the way.
And now back to Yogi Bear, Snow White, the Grinch, and so forth.
1
Cynical. Wordy.
You've never asked Jesus Christ into your life.
Read HIS Word. Ask Him for the Gift of the Holy Spirit, for Wisdom, Understanding.
He is alive in our hearts.
You've never asked Jesus Christ into your life.
Read HIS Word. Ask Him for the Gift of the Holy Spirit, for Wisdom, Understanding.
He is alive in our hearts.
By the comments here I see how far Brazil is from the United States in terms of the secularization of the U.S. How dare Americans (yes I include myself) comment so smugly and judgementally against a poor people suffering in poverty like this as if math and science would bring these people to the attention of authorities. Shame on you people! In this situation God, and I do believe in Him, is working miracles for these people that you and I in this rich country with poverty stricken view of God shackled by secularism would not understand.
8
Amen!!!!
Shame on you Ken for judging people who question these things.
1
Having youth of any country enslaved by poverty or religious missionaries is not moving us in the right direction. Globalization has produced enough challenges, but to bear witness to children being indoctrinated in faith's around the world to avoid the brutality of government's that have failed in their mission to safeguard their people, is sickening. Further, watching people migrating the seas to find a friendly shore, only to find that they are being enslaved to traffickers, is devastating. The patterns of forced migration should be telling us that if the governments of the world are failing and people are fleeing persecution, only to find further persecution elsewhere, then humanity has failed in its efforts to civilize and form the peaceful world they imagined. It is never too late to encourage those who are fleeing to remain and tackle the establishments that enslave them. Revolutions have been fought and won in history based on these ideals and I am certain that liberation for the oppressed will continue to be cause worthy of our attention.
3
I'd like a follow-up on the future lives of child preachers. Do these kids age out of this, like supermodels losing their looks? Do they continue in the family business, grooming other kids to replace themselves? Do any get away?
6
Ah religion! Spending one's life preparing to die and go to mythological better world.
8
Ah, atheism! Spending one's life believing you know why others should not believe what they believe, believing that your belief in the belief of non-belief is the only true belief and trusting in the belief that The Great Big Nothing awaits...
Very sad.
5
Great article, but very sad. Alani's story reminds me of the child priestess Tenar in Ursula Le Guin's classic novel The Tombs of Atuan. Though the novel takes place in Le Guin's fantastic Earthsea universe, I am amazed at how closely its themes highlighting the mindlessness of religious superstitions and cruel exploitation of children echo real phenomena from own world such as those described in this article.
3
At least praise children for the things they have and I'm gonna see this child I love Alani Santos and it's not sad it's actually very uplifting that I see an 11 year old girl preach and reach out to other people and if you don't get me wait til Jesus comes back and you will see him when the world ends I Had a vision of Jesus recently that he's gonna come back to Earth and I'm 15 and I believe I see the spritual world I BELIEVE in ghosts, sprits, angels, devil, devils angels, God, the creator of all mankind, and Jesus, the world's most perfect powerful person on the planet And I saw Jesus by my bed last night it was a vision and he told me when the world ends everyone will see Jesus heal every sick person on Earth
"The church is a hospital" for the favelas, and these extra-sensitive children listen to the otherwise unheard. Being heard, being prayed over, being touched by an innocent is obviously quite moving to those suffering without prospect of help or a future.
This is just the saddest story, impossible to stop reading but it surely captures the desperate need for man to have some, any, hope in his life. That there are people trying to fill that need shouldn't suprise anyone, nor how creative we can be in attempting to survive.
With the poverty + inequality in the Global South, where this is growing so quickly, the need for the supernatural sounds like it has been approvingly promoted by gov't rather than having to address those societal ills.
Very informative, empathetic but factual reporting on a despair palliative unfamiliar yet all too human on all sides.
This is just the saddest story, impossible to stop reading but it surely captures the desperate need for man to have some, any, hope in his life. That there are people trying to fill that need shouldn't suprise anyone, nor how creative we can be in attempting to survive.
With the poverty + inequality in the Global South, where this is growing so quickly, the need for the supernatural sounds like it has been approvingly promoted by gov't rather than having to address those societal ills.
Very informative, empathetic but factual reporting on a despair palliative unfamiliar yet all too human on all sides.
5
"Out of the mouths of children and infants, you have perfected praise." Mt 21:16
5
Hey, wait a minute, these religious practices and beliefs were exported from the U.S. to por Brazil
5
no they were not. they were transported from the bible.
Surprised that so many of you attribute Pentecostal beliefs to poverty in Brazil. It was exported from the U.S.
4
... just to think, i missed my calling in false prophesy-ing.
... i could have been a multimillionaire preacher, with gullible followers, private jets, pretty women, fancy cars, mansions in every major city, hobnobbing with corrupt & unscrupulous bible-thumping politicians.
... instead i turned out to be a decent human being, atheist, and full of regrets that i didn't follow the "holy" path.
... Father in Heaven, why art thou forsaken me?
... i could have been a multimillionaire preacher, with gullible followers, private jets, pretty women, fancy cars, mansions in every major city, hobnobbing with corrupt & unscrupulous bible-thumping politicians.
... instead i turned out to be a decent human being, atheist, and full of regrets that i didn't follow the "holy" path.
... Father in Heaven, why art thou forsaken me?
6
The trouble is there no "there" there, i.e. no God. The enormity of that is mind boggling.
2
What is mind-boggling is the enormity of your ignorance of the blessings God bestows on you every moment of every day. Open your eyes.
I watched my working class Brazilian in-laws become evangelicals in the interior of the state of Bahia, Brazil. Sadly it appeared that society only offered them two choices: a short life of drugs, violence and promiscuity or a very intellectually stifled world controlled by a store front preacher. It is sad that Brazil could not offer them the educational and cultural alternatives that didn't just lead either to an early grave or head full of biblical injunctions.
48
This comes across as desperation on so many fronts: wanting to believe, seeking purity, loss of hopes in adults, hope for miracles, panacea...... I don't believe anything, but I my respect for believing adults who condone this practice is simply not there.
17
You got to hand it to religious zealots, they come in every flavor. The best part, they would rather their children learn scripture over chemistry. The is nothing but abuse.
42
During my last trip to Brazil, I was in Búzios, walking around that tourist town on a Tuesday night. Down a trendy street was lots of noise and bright lights. I walked in its direction to find a Pentacostal church in full swing. So much shouting and carrying on. A Brazilian man next to me on the sidewalk said to me, "They go there because of the air-conditioning." Was he being cynical or sharp?
A few days later I was back in Rio, in a taxi, speeding passed what seemed to be miles of huge charter buses. I've never seen anything like it in the U.S. The taxi driver said, "There's a Pentacostal event in town." I was amazed.
I lived in Brazil when I was a child, and I know the people need something. But this is really just an extension of what they've always had: wishes and magic. I hope this is just a necessary phase in a sad history.
And then there is the beautiful, artistic, musical Brazil. Thank God.
A few days later I was back in Rio, in a taxi, speeding passed what seemed to be miles of huge charter buses. I've never seen anything like it in the U.S. The taxi driver said, "There's a Pentacostal event in town." I was amazed.
I lived in Brazil when I was a child, and I know the people need something. But this is really just an extension of what they've always had: wishes and magic. I hope this is just a necessary phase in a sad history.
And then there is the beautiful, artistic, musical Brazil. Thank God.
30
Exit through the gift store. A pathetic example of explotation of vulnerable people.
27
The evils of organized religion know no boundaries, or age brackets. Ditto the gullibility of those who buy into organized religion and force their children to participate in such nonsense.
60
Religion fills the gap left by an inadequate education.
7
Gruber the evangelist is far superior.
Nice antenna shot!
What a sad world we live in where children either become "preachers" at an incredibly early age or fall prey to the scourge of drugs (according to the writer from Rio). Is it a coincidence that this is happening in Brazil where education is at an all time low and the poverty level equals or surpasses the worst of Africa?
17
Reminds me of the Coranic schools where children learn to preach rather learning to think and live.
1
Income has risen in Brazil over the past twenty years and, in paralell, Evangelical churches have grown tremendously. Therefore, it's not a matter of income. These people, despite having a low income, now have access to goods and services which they couldn't afford years ago. However, consumption is not equal to education. One can have all sorts of goods, three meals a day, etc, but this doesn't mean this person has access to education. Brazilian society needs a lot of investment from the government in high quality education and not only in pro-consumption policies; otherwise it won't reach high levels of development -- and those churches will only grow based on the lack of knowledge of their preachers.
1
Well, aside from not being able to change my screen name, after changing the profile about 12 times, and saving it, I can only register my outrage (the currency of comment boards) equivalent to having children preaching to adults. (outside of one famous 12 year old about 2000 years ago)
3
Umm...the floor of a cave called...
This is emotionally and spiritually abusive of children.
Since when do you have to pay $500 to access a preacher? It's not about spirituality, then. It's exploitation.
Since when do you have to pay $500 to access a preacher? It's not about spirituality, then. It's exploitation.
37
Most pay with their minds.
1
I feel sorry for the destitute people who are so desperate and confounded by life that they feel that they have to resort to faith healing. Because these unfortunate people don't have access to adequate healthcare many of them feel like they have no choice but to embrace magic.
The solution to this problem is education. If these people were educated they would recognize there are better solutions to their problems. Going to a faith healer (children being exploited by adults) they essentially involves giving themselves over to their powerlessness. Instead of taking charge of their lives they are mired in hopelessness, which makes them prime targets to be manipulated by charlatans who prey on their vulnerability.
What a sad and sorry state of affairs with no hope in sight...
The solution to this problem is education. If these people were educated they would recognize there are better solutions to their problems. Going to a faith healer (children being exploited by adults) they essentially involves giving themselves over to their powerlessness. Instead of taking charge of their lives they are mired in hopelessness, which makes them prime targets to be manipulated by charlatans who prey on their vulnerability.
What a sad and sorry state of affairs with no hope in sight...
25
No Bill Randle. We here in the United States need to be pitied more than anyone else in the world. We are poverty stricken. We are building a world now that is not sustainable environmentally or socially. Education is not enough. We are miserable at including others and caring for others just as Mother Theresa said about us.
I live in the global south in the Americas and some countries are different than Brazil in that basic health care is available at little or no cost. While I agree it is sad to see people clinging to child preachers for cures when health care is not available, it's even worse to see a child die because a fanatic preacher or church leader convinces a parent that if they go to the free clinic where a safe and necessary surgery could save the child from a ruptured appendix or tubal pregnancy it will show a lack of faith. I know actual cases where this happened, with cause of death confirmed by autopsy.
4
@Ken: "We here in the United States need to be pitied more than anyone else in the world"
Ken you are conforming to stereotypes about people in flyover country. That's really not fair to the other people in flyover country.
Ken you are conforming to stereotypes about people in flyover country. That's really not fair to the other people in flyover country.
1
To quote Elaine from Seinfeld: "Fake, fake, fake, fake."
13
. . . and yet wrong, wrong, wrong , wrong is the TV show because of the many thousands of well documented miraculous cures over the last century at Lourdes in France and Fatima in Portugal. A century after the Marian Apparitions at those places, where the chosen 'seer' was a peasant and poor child or children, the cures still happen, the desperate still come, and the goodness of God is made obvious, to all who do not refuse to see.
1
@Ed, if a one-legged person entered Lourdes and exited with two legs, I would consider that a miracle. Has such a thing happened?
2
Sometimes it seems like the Magazine has turned into a freak show.
9
According to the sum total of human understanding and inquiry, refined by great strides in science over the last 700 years; Not one supernatural event has ever happened in the whole 13.82 billion year history of the Universe, not once - ever.
This story is about superstition and ignorance working hand in hand, dragging people backward deeper into the morass of confusion that created these slums.
This story is about superstition and ignorance working hand in hand, dragging people backward deeper into the morass of confusion that created these slums.
21
You are the one in delusion. Science has given us a lot so has religion. To claim that science has the sum total of all human knowledge under its belt is a false claim that leads to the kind of culture devoid of exploration and sprituality that underlies human existence. Most scientists have never claimed that they have all the answers or have all knowledge. It is a kind of knowledge, namely based on experiment that is not possible to apply to everything. There is no way to scientifically to verify historical events for example. Scientists don't claim to know everything about the universe. It is atheists who have co-opted science as an ideology, and distorts the nature of science by making it closed to any other kinds of knowledge. Atheism is a kind of religion itself and not based on facts but on a distorted view of the world that precludes any spiritual phenomenon as false.
Further the very accusation of many here about child abuse can be turn right around on us. Is is not child abuse to allow kids to run around with smart phones to be attacked by bulies on social media and be preyed on as teens by sexual predators. Let me ask you do you allow these things and how much is this more abusive than to allow pure religious expression? In the U.S. we actually practice more child abuse than anywhere else.
Further the very accusation of many here about child abuse can be turn right around on us. Is is not child abuse to allow kids to run around with smart phones to be attacked by bulies on social media and be preyed on as teens by sexual predators. Let me ask you do you allow these things and how much is this more abusive than to allow pure religious expression? In the U.S. we actually practice more child abuse than anywhere else.
"There is no way to scientifically to verify historical events for example. "
@Ken, there is no way for you to scientifically verify that I exist unless you come here and visit me, and even if you did, I might be some kind of deception created by God or possibly the Devil to test your faith, correct?
@Ken, there is no way for you to scientifically verify that I exist unless you come here and visit me, and even if you did, I might be some kind of deception created by God or possibly the Devil to test your faith, correct?
1
This is child abuse of the first order, it is disgusting and evil. As Napoleon observed, "Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich."
34
Weird and very sad, to me. I cannot accept that any of these miracle healings actually occurred. I can easily accept that the hopelessness produced by poverty causes people to be desperate and deluded. I don't see any easy way out of this lifestyle for these people, but I know prayer and stories of miracles are not going to be the answer.
12
Sort of like giving drugs to a child, letting them 'spread' a gospel then have no ability to interpret.
4
Religion is still the opiate of the mass, second only to pro sports.
4
"A few minutes into his sermon, two deacons turned the hall lights off and started to yell: 'God is with you — he’s here! He’s here!' The boy at the turntable raised the volume of the music. The task at hand was to coax the Holy Spirit earthside, into this room with bare walls and harsh lighting, to ask him to transform the assembled congregants, who, having examined the resources available to them, saw a miracle as their best option."
Manipulating the senses, in this case with light and sound, is a typical practice of those trying to alter minds. Also, apparently God needs humans worked into a frenzy before he is willing to show his love by curing the illnesses that aren't visible to the human eye. That missing leg? Sorry, a bit too much to handle for the omnipotent being who made everything.
Manipulating the senses, in this case with light and sound, is a typical practice of those trying to alter minds. Also, apparently God needs humans worked into a frenzy before he is willing to show his love by curing the illnesses that aren't visible to the human eye. That missing leg? Sorry, a bit too much to handle for the omnipotent being who made everything.
22
It is you who are deceived that miracles don't take place. I am sick and tired of listening to people who don't have compassion for the poor cast judgement on people who have compassion. If secular society is working so well for us why do we have so many problems? Last I checked the most secular of governments were in deep debt and we have no answers to crime or poverty. People with degrees in science and engineering as it seems that's what you think will get people well, have not helped.
@Ken, do you seriously think people with science-based degrees (in medicine, for example) do not solve actual problems and only miracles can really help people get well? Is the infrastructure of your society based on miracles, not science and engineering? Where exactly in the Midwest is this marvellous place?
1
This article is sickening. The practices described are child abuse at the additional expense of poor people.
26
Great article.
3
Fascinating story. Important to point out that this is encouraged among Pentecostal communities in the US as well, though not to the same extent of course. Same story-- stories of miracles and radical transformations provide hope for those in otherwise hopeless places.
18
First, I think this is a well-written article. As one who lives and works in ministry here in Rio, it would seem that you have to really understand the nature of pentecostalism in Brazil, the life in the "comunidades" (favelas) and the deep religious nature of the Brazilians in order to fully understand this child-preaching phenomenon. While I have nothing against preaching (I am a preacher), I think it is unwise to place kids in these situations. The majority of these churches have practically zero theologically-trained pastors, and so the services end up being long healing crusades, full of shouting, prophetic-style fortune-telling, and requests for money. Certainly God can (and does) move in spite of it.
However, the majority of these churches also have people with big hearts. If it wasn't for the pentecostal churches in the slums, the drug trafficking trade and violence would be exponentially worse. The government in Rio comes to the church to help solve social problems, because they have seen even statistically that the church provides a better out for a transformed man/woman than mere social programs or education.
So perhaps it's better to encourage a young kid to be a preacher because it avoids him/her entering the trades of drug-trafficking or prostitution.
At the same time, all too often, somewhere the simplicity of the Gospel is by-stepped in the hype.
However, the majority of these churches also have people with big hearts. If it wasn't for the pentecostal churches in the slums, the drug trafficking trade and violence would be exponentially worse. The government in Rio comes to the church to help solve social problems, because they have seen even statistically that the church provides a better out for a transformed man/woman than mere social programs or education.
So perhaps it's better to encourage a young kid to be a preacher because it avoids him/her entering the trades of drug-trafficking or prostitution.
At the same time, all too often, somewhere the simplicity of the Gospel is by-stepped in the hype.
42
Perhaps it's better to educate the young in science and math rather than fantasy which depends on solicitations for money from church members. These poor kids deserve an education in reality leading to gainful employment in the real world. It's hardly a choice only between drugs and preaching nonsense.
27
I lived in Brazil for many years and disagree with the comment about the religious nature of the people of Brazil. The churches are empty, although evngelicals are gaining in popularity. Brazilians in majority are ignorant about religion, yet are very superstitious. I see these child priests and healers preying on the ignorance and superstition of the population for the sole benefit of enriching themselves. In short, they are crooks.
39
Thank you for providing this well written post. I was starting to lose a bit of hope reading all of the hateful and cynical comments.
lacking and medical care inadequate, where drugs and violence are rampant. As for curing blindness, alzheimer's, and missing limbs, it can be a bit dissappointing. Ironically, the Catholic church has for ages touted miracles as proof it is the "true" church. Now it seems they are being outdone by newcomers who may have never set foot in a real seminary.