Spare me the "investigative journalism." You're going to gripe about these guys and then do another front page about the Russian hackers and how somebody has to hunt them down?
Let's just live in our safe little naive world and let these guys keep doing their jobs to keep us safe. God Bless these guys and all our military.
Let's just live in our safe little naive world and let these guys keep doing their jobs to keep us safe. God Bless these guys and all our military.
25
President Barack Hussein Obama has a target list for his drone fired Hellfire/Griffin missiles that has been used against even American citizens including a 16 year old boy without due process.
Employing Seal Team 6 as an international American hit squad is worthy of the infamous Murder, Incorporated under the organized crime reign of Albert Anastasia and Louis Buchalter. Whatever we Americans can and will do under the guise of the war on terror can and will be adopted and emulated by any and all other foreign nations states in pursuit of their own exceptional interests and values. We will reap the whirlwind blowback of flattery by imitation.
Employing Seal Team 6 as an international American hit squad is worthy of the infamous Murder, Incorporated under the organized crime reign of Albert Anastasia and Louis Buchalter. Whatever we Americans can and will do under the guise of the war on terror can and will be adopted and emulated by any and all other foreign nations states in pursuit of their own exceptional interests and values. We will reap the whirlwind blowback of flattery by imitation.
10
Thanks to the Times for doing its job, and not blithely repeating administration talking points every time.
The number of stories that hit Mr. Obama and Mrs. Clinton should assuage any concerns as to political bias in Times reporting.
The number of stories that hit Mr. Obama and Mrs. Clinton should assuage any concerns as to political bias in Times reporting.
6
While media and public lionizes ST6, where is accountability? Where are the trials for war crimes? Where are accounts of human rights violations? Or should we conveniently ignore them and pretend that Pussy Riot is the biggest human rights issue on the face of the planet? Pathetic and hypocritical.
16
We kill, they kill, everyone kills.
Why do so many fail to understand that the very arrogant, brutal assertions of POWER by US is a not insignificant reason why THEY fly planes into our buildings. But that primitive, brain chemical high which atavistic humans get when they achieve power over the other will forever convince the more recently evolved but less powerful (thinking) part of the brain that to "win," all we need do is brutalize the other more than they brutalize us.
But, of course instead, it is simply a matter of what so many wisdom traditions have proclaimed to no avail that we shall reap as we sow.
And, without doubt, prior to human-kinds ability to destroy "them" along with "us," that kind of overwhelming brutality worked. After all, we're here gorging ourselves on the spoils of our brutality, just like the brutal oligarchs of old.
Sadly, even in this allegedly more "enlightened" era where information speeds across time zones, countries and cultures, we fail to recognize that it is our IDEALS which represent our true power, That, though. means taking risks and making sacrifices by those who already have the power. But that just ain't in a nature honed over eons where might made right.
I just wonder how we would have sucked the oxygen right of the the air of those medieval jihadists if we hadn't ourselves acted just like them. So here we are killing and hating and fearing and taking until, perhaps, we're ALL destroyed.
Why do so many fail to understand that the very arrogant, brutal assertions of POWER by US is a not insignificant reason why THEY fly planes into our buildings. But that primitive, brain chemical high which atavistic humans get when they achieve power over the other will forever convince the more recently evolved but less powerful (thinking) part of the brain that to "win," all we need do is brutalize the other more than they brutalize us.
But, of course instead, it is simply a matter of what so many wisdom traditions have proclaimed to no avail that we shall reap as we sow.
And, without doubt, prior to human-kinds ability to destroy "them" along with "us," that kind of overwhelming brutality worked. After all, we're here gorging ourselves on the spoils of our brutality, just like the brutal oligarchs of old.
Sadly, even in this allegedly more "enlightened" era where information speeds across time zones, countries and cultures, we fail to recognize that it is our IDEALS which represent our true power, That, though. means taking risks and making sacrifices by those who already have the power. But that just ain't in a nature honed over eons where might made right.
I just wonder how we would have sucked the oxygen right of the the air of those medieval jihadists if we hadn't ourselves acted just like them. So here we are killing and hating and fearing and taking until, perhaps, we're ALL destroyed.
12
Sorry, don't think these articles are appropriate and could lead to trouble for any soldier. Is that really worth a pulitzer? sheesh
16
If. Your bankers and corporations who kill economically families , do not need supervision , regulators to regulate them are expected to do what they want , purchase with election funds , whole political system , purchase judiciary , purchase media all with money power , why should you think that our SEALS who are elite troops killing on behalf of you, to save you from getting killed , need be more supervision than what they have now ?
11
After all the nonsense over the Bin Laden caper I don't believe anything about them and now it is open to question as to who killed BL. This country is so full of greed that almost nothing is believable.
13
"Taliban Overrun Remote District in Northeast Afghanistan"
- Page 7 of this same Sunday edition of The Times.
So whose strategy is winning?
- Page 7 of this same Sunday edition of The Times.
So whose strategy is winning?
13
I think it's clear that the Afghans are not fighting the Soviets anymore. I think it's clear that the United States is not fighting in Viet Nam anymore. Sucks to be Talban right about now........
7
Thank you to Seal Team 6 and all other Navy Seals and active duty men and women across the world. You put yourselves out there in ways we can not even imagine to preserve our way of life here in the USA. I only hope that those that be allow you to do your jobs without trying to grandstand and meddle in how you must do it.
32
Bush's gift to the world: never ending war, 600,000 civilian dead. The gift that keeps on giving.
27
Thankfully we have the resources to train elite teams like the SEALs. More importantly we have men dedicated and brave enough to do this necessary work.
29
War is a brutal endevour and takes a toll on everyone. These guys were going into hostile environments daily and the best way to survive is to kill first. Playing Monday morning quarterback on events that were made on a split second judgement against an enemy that sends their sons and daughters on suicide missions is absurd. Did mistakes occur, yes were some people killed yout of spite perhaps. Do the Tailban and ISiS have the same concerns for civilians no.
35
This story creates the impression that SEAL team 6 is a SWAT team doing the work of a highly sophisticated police force on special assignments around the world. Though the article documents incidents of civilian deaths and abuses of power, the covert nature of their missions makes these volunteer warriors prone to being used and abused as well. Because these operations are classified – heck, just like the Mafia, they don’t even exist, --it is impossible for the American taxpayer who funds them to ever know the truth. The writers were careful neither to romanticize nor condemn these men leaving one to conclude that like any police force, SEAL Team 6 is a necessary evil for the United States.
9
The objective of war is to win.
18
Why do we keep losing wars then? They only make a few people rich and impoverish everyone else? Korea, Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan, the list starts there post WWII, the last real war we won outright. OK, maybe Kuwait was a win, and Panama and Grenada...
16
I a a ti-war but there are times that talks and civility fail. It is at these times that we need warriors like those in SEAL 6-to do the work that keeps us safe, to do the work that most in this those country will no longer do, to do the work that most do not even want to know about. War is never polite or remotely civil. War is started by persons who will never die in battle-they send in others to do the killing they create. And civilians will die-they always are among the first, they always have and always will.
If you want to be really appalled-don't look askance at those who do the killing-look at those who profit from the killings-all the arms dealers who live lives of privilege because they deal in death.
If you want to be really appalled-don't look askance at those who do the killing-look at those who profit from the killings-all the arms dealers who live lives of privilege because they deal in death.
10
Remember "loose lips sink ships"? Why does our media think everything (such as our last spy satelite launch), and seal activity have to have a public airing? Maybe the Times should do an investigation of the media's inadvertant aid to our enemies? That's worthy news too.
35
Thank you for this open news about a dark part of our government. The next time we are attacked, we will understand why.
17
I'm very glad that we have men like those in Seal Team 6 who are trained to perform with complete efficiency in desperately difficult situations against enemies that know no mercy. I would hope, if I was ever in a situation like Dr. Joseph, the Seal Team 6 members would be there for me, and I would not question their efficiency and commitment.
In a world of asymmetrical warfare, the Seal Team 6 members are the tip of the spear against ruthless zealots.
In a world of asymmetrical warfare, the Seal Team 6 members are the tip of the spear against ruthless zealots.
30
I am a liberal type of guy, but when I read this article today, I was like "oh boy," here we are about to go and try to crucify the folks who our elected officials "turned lose." Yes, let's indict the hammer but not the one who swung it.
These people are doing amazing stuff, and we don't need the New York Times second guessing THEM. If you are going to second guess anybody, how about those from both parties that send them on these missions?
These people are doing amazing stuff, and we don't need the New York Times second guessing THEM. If you are going to second guess anybody, how about those from both parties that send them on these missions?
40
The reporting sounds more like historical fiction. Some of the facts, suspicions and actions noted with quotes and commands seem unreal. I am impressed with the heroics and my stomach is in knots because of the sequence of events. Makes me wonder why this report made the front page.
7
This mans touching concern for the well being of the terrorists who kidnapped him, killed one of his rescuers and undoubtedly would not have hesitated an instant to kill him as well, is at the root of the current ''Criminal's Rights'' movement here at home. Should people engaging in riot, looting, arson, kidnapping, robbery and murder be given the slightest consideration for their safety or wellbeing? It is the height of degeneracy to encumber those entrusted with civilization's defense with such idiocy.
27
After thinking about it more, essentially the narrative of this article boils down to: Yes, Seal Team 6 sometimes does horrible things, but this is war, and it's necessary for our security.
It struck me this sort of tragic/heroic logic is very much like an article in the October 21, 2013 issue of the New Yorker, by Ari Shavit, about the notorious Israeli massacre of Palestinians in the town of Lydda, in 1948.
Shavit argues that the massacre must be seen as part of the tragedy of Israel, somehow an inevitable event driven by historic forces beyond their control, without which Israel could not exist. This was just the tragic price of the fact that if the Palestinians were not expelled, Israel could not exist.
In a subsequent issue of the New Yorker, Shlomi Segall, Associate Professor of Political Science, at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem, wrote in to explain that Shavit's article fell squarely into a genre of Israeli writing that began after the Six-Day War, in which soldiers published memoirs discussing their ambivalence about the activities, in which they had participated. At the time, in Israel, the genre was ridiculed as "shooting and weeping" stories.
Segall writes: "Shavit elevates the genre to new heights of cynicism. Writhing with sympathy for the Palestinian victims of the 1948 ethnic cleansing of Lydda, Shavit ends up shamelessly justifying the act."
It would seen the NY Times has found a way to tell a shooting and weeping story about American militarism.
It struck me this sort of tragic/heroic logic is very much like an article in the October 21, 2013 issue of the New Yorker, by Ari Shavit, about the notorious Israeli massacre of Palestinians in the town of Lydda, in 1948.
Shavit argues that the massacre must be seen as part of the tragedy of Israel, somehow an inevitable event driven by historic forces beyond their control, without which Israel could not exist. This was just the tragic price of the fact that if the Palestinians were not expelled, Israel could not exist.
In a subsequent issue of the New Yorker, Shlomi Segall, Associate Professor of Political Science, at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem, wrote in to explain that Shavit's article fell squarely into a genre of Israeli writing that began after the Six-Day War, in which soldiers published memoirs discussing their ambivalence about the activities, in which they had participated. At the time, in Israel, the genre was ridiculed as "shooting and weeping" stories.
Segall writes: "Shavit elevates the genre to new heights of cynicism. Writhing with sympathy for the Palestinian victims of the 1948 ethnic cleansing of Lydda, Shavit ends up shamelessly justifying the act."
It would seen the NY Times has found a way to tell a shooting and weeping story about American militarism.
5
If that's the dirt that can be found on the team after over a decade of intense combat, they are really operating in an outstanding legal and ethical manner. War creates lots of fog and friction, and the type these warriors conduct is even more hazy and fraught with potential abuses. Looks to me like they are doing extremely well.
17
This article is a response to Sy Hersh's article, our spec ops folks can do no wrong, simply because, no one is authorized to speak about their actions. Except when committed journalists expose it.
Rock on Seymour!
Rock on Seymour!
12
NYT, you make me reconsider my subscription, when I read propaganda like this. If any American should wonder why their nation is loathed so deeply throughout the rest of the world, they need only read through this article, and imagine themselves on the receiving end of a midnight visit from SEAL Team 6. Imagine, having your Husband, Father and Sons executed in their beds "accidentally"("oops, wrong mud hut...we meant to go next door"), or out of an abundance of caution for the safety of the SEALS....murdering men in a country where carrying a firearm is simply a part of everyday life for ALL males, and THEN claiming that you've made the world a safer place by killing innocents.
I served 10 years in the Regular Army in my own nation, and am no bleeding heart. I NEVER harmed a single innocent person in that time. What your nation is allowing to be done in your name is immoral, and you deserve everything you get in return.
I served 10 years in the Regular Army in my own nation, and am no bleeding heart. I NEVER harmed a single innocent person in that time. What your nation is allowing to be done in your name is immoral, and you deserve everything you get in return.
19
At some point, a line is crossed where the good guys become a bunch of thugs. From this article, I have no idea whether that point has been reached or not. Internal oversight is insufficient to assess this question. But for sure, uncontrolled thuggery, if and when it exists, is counter to US interests. Along with no real plan, that's why we have pretty much lost every war since WW2. And for anyone who objects to such a sweeping statement, please recall that the Dear Leaders are still there in N Korea. Long since time for a trip there from Team 6 perhaps? And anyone who thinks that we won in Vietnam, Iraq or Afghanistan is a fool of the first order.
22
Peter, you're absolutely spot on. And from the irrational tenor of many
of the comments on this thread, it seems many of the posters actually
think we did win in Vietnam, Iraq and Afghanistan!
of the comments on this thread, it seems many of the posters actually
think we did win in Vietnam, Iraq and Afghanistan!
11
In a democracy, whom you vote for will determine what these SEALs do. Cast your vote carefully.
9
Correction who you cast your vote for will partly determine the need to use these guys. A president with a strong will and intelligent foreign policy sends a message to others not to get out of line. We did not have it under Clinton and we did not have it under Obama. Bush made a bad decision made on bad intelligence, but had the fortitude to win a war that Obama had now lost.
6
I applaud the Navy Seal Teams, 6 included. I want a world without war, and I'd also like a new Porsche to magically appear in my drive way, to own the winning lottery ticket, and an extra 20 -30 years or so of youth. All of these things are extreme long shots, i.e. they are not going to happen. Having said that, I like it that we have the Seal Teams, and I like it that others know we have the Seal Teams.
19
Of note, the 6/4/15 NYT lists a Green Beret & a SEAL as having died in Afghanistan. This nation owes a debt of gratitude it can never repay to the men who do unspeakable things to rescue Americans, to find and kill those who would kill us without impunity.
16
This article celebrates and documents a major change in warfare. In conducting wars of the type that we've involved ourselves in over the past decade, Special Forces have been a huge part of the answer. This is because they take the war to the enemy, not conventional forces. (At least not until the American force deployment policy returns to Powell's "overwhelming force" doctrine.) The Republican establishment policy of fighting a war on the cheap (Iraq), whether necessary or not, will require massive, continuous Special Forces intervention.
I believe that Gen. McChrystal saw that and it led to a use of these forces on such a scale as to exhaust them. It's a recipe for mistake and some of the mistakes were important, possibly criminal.
Will the President put the use of robot forces under the conventional rules of war or under the "emerging" rules of drone war? Have we gone too far in clandestine warfare to turn back now?
I believe that Gen. McChrystal saw that and it led to a use of these forces on such a scale as to exhaust them. It's a recipe for mistake and some of the mistakes were important, possibly criminal.
Will the President put the use of robot forces under the conventional rules of war or under the "emerging" rules of drone war? Have we gone too far in clandestine warfare to turn back now?
3
While the use of special forces and drone do have some civilian causulties they are no where near the effects of carpet bombing and other tactics from WWII and Vietnam. Also the intelligence gathered saves lives on both sides.
4
Why do newspapers and other news outlets feel the need to share every detail about such classified operations. You seem to provide a catalog information for all the very people these units are assigned to protect us from. Even aerial photographs of the Seal Team training locations. And like the recent story about all the TSA mistakes. Do we need to share these mistakes and how they were accomplished with ISIS and every other terrorist group on the planet. Is this just another way to sell more newspapers or commercials at the expense of American citizens and military operatives?
20
Why do newspapers publish articles like this? Because its their job. The press is not supposed to be cheerleaders for the American government, like they were during the run-up to the Iraq war. How did that work out?
6
What does the editor of this article expect? There are somethings the American public shouldn't know and have any right to know.
12
it will be a secret until another memememe hero blabs about it...
2
Much needed article. I am anti-war, but not anti-military. The difference is that the war industry has become controlled by the military-industrial complex and a cadre of neo-con politicians. The military is what keeps our country safe. Unfortunately, the US needs groups like Seal Team 6 to help keep the country safe. I am very glad we have them despite the fact that I wish that all they had to do was play Tiddly-Winks. But, I know better.
9
SEALs are a tool of U.S. foreign policy in the Middle East. U.S. foreign policy there is a tool of the oil companies and the Israeli lobby
9
I am on the left and an anti wars of choice type. But I too am realistic like MJB. We do not live in a perfect world. It is a very dangerous place. We ask the Seals to do a hard and dirty job......to ruin many of their lives. It is no time to trash them. They did what they were asked to do.
Time to reinstitute the draft. Never thought I would say that since I avoided it. But folks like the "lawyer from Syracuse" do not seem to have clue what is done to protect them. The time spent "exposing" the seals is time wasted....just like Seymour Hersh in the article no one wanted to publish on Osama, not even the Guardian.
Gentlemen. You dislike the Seals? Then start a crusade to stop wars of choice. You have supported them. Why do you think there are so many bad guys out there.
Time to reinstitute the draft. Never thought I would say that since I avoided it. But folks like the "lawyer from Syracuse" do not seem to have clue what is done to protect them. The time spent "exposing" the seals is time wasted....just like Seymour Hersh in the article no one wanted to publish on Osama, not even the Guardian.
Gentlemen. You dislike the Seals? Then start a crusade to stop wars of choice. You have supported them. Why do you think there are so many bad guys out there.
12
For those readers that express enthusiasm for this type of military action, I suggest a re-reading the article as if the "Seals" in question were Russian, Chinese or Iranian special forces executing the same type of operations around the world.
14
What's really shocking is the number of NYT readers who are enthusiastic about Seal Team 6 or resigned to it.
The only legitimate regular use I can see for an elite secret team like this is hostage rescue.
Otherwise, it's just Murder Incorporated, outside all laws, secret and uncontrolled, with the extra appeal of super-advanced technology. It could metastasize very quickly.
The only legitimate regular use I can see for an elite secret team like this is hostage rescue.
Otherwise, it's just Murder Incorporated, outside all laws, secret and uncontrolled, with the extra appeal of super-advanced technology. It could metastasize very quickly.
16
Secret warfare is inimical in a democracy.
The more there is of it, the more unlimited character that warfare takes on, the less tolerable it becomes and the more of outrage it presents to "rule by the people".
Nixon bombed Cambodia during Vietnam and America erupted in protest coast to coast, from the campuses to urban streets. Now, the country is silent and unaware of the killings that are being carried out in our names.
Once something is "classified" it normally takes decades for the stamp to be removed, if ever. This is unacceptable. We need to know. We have a right to know. At the very least, details of operations should be made known within 12 to 24 months.
For all we know, America is now making new enemies, new terrorist recruits, with many of these various operations. While we can apparently stop some known terrorists in their tracks, we can't kill our way to a safe and peaceful world.
The most important thing, if such clandestine operations are to continue, is to use such force carefully and with great restraint. We have to be able to live with some uncertainty about what we can prevent and the damage that can be done by wanton bloodshed. The article seems to indicate that we have crossed the line many times and it warrants a demand on the part of the public, all of us, to both know what is happening and for those in leadership to restrain both the cowboys doing the killing and those who send them on their way.
33
You obviously are living in an alternate universe. But no worries, our U. S. Armed Forces will watch your back as well.
6
This is a silly article that inadvertently answers many of the questions it raises:
1. Why do all the captors end up dead in many hostage rescues? It's because it's a dangerous mission where the soldiers have to move fast to ensure that the hostages aren't killed. If I am every taken hostage, I'm very comfortable with all the hostage takers ending up dead. Perhaps the author would prefer that the rescuers move slowly and hesitantly.
2. Are the SEALs out of control, operating without oversight? Actually, no. There is a chain of command leading up to the President. It just doesn't happen to include any Monday morning quarterback NYT reporters.
3. Are the SEALs taking on an expanded role, stressed by missions formerly executed by larger, better armed, regular troops? Yes, that's Obama's policy- to put elite forces at risk, rather than keeping large forces on the ground.
1. Why do all the captors end up dead in many hostage rescues? It's because it's a dangerous mission where the soldiers have to move fast to ensure that the hostages aren't killed. If I am every taken hostage, I'm very comfortable with all the hostage takers ending up dead. Perhaps the author would prefer that the rescuers move slowly and hesitantly.
2. Are the SEALs out of control, operating without oversight? Actually, no. There is a chain of command leading up to the President. It just doesn't happen to include any Monday morning quarterback NYT reporters.
3. Are the SEALs taking on an expanded role, stressed by missions formerly executed by larger, better armed, regular troops? Yes, that's Obama's policy- to put elite forces at risk, rather than keeping large forces on the ground.
20
Thank you for expressing my own thoughts so succinctly and perfectly!
5
Those of us who support the actions of SEAL Team 6 and other death squads in the name of security have given up on our democracy. It may very well be that their "work" and the foreign policies of the US government will eventually lead to Fortress America, the ultimate gated community, with almost every other country hating us for what we've become, a rogue plutocratic, fascist-lite, state. While the need to fight enemies will always be with a nation that regards itself as the highest moral actor in the world, with an army to back up its claims, a more benign, altruistic, and thoughtful nation might not have so many enemies to justify a SEAL Team 6. Would a professional armed force not be enough to deal with all contingencies if our foreign policies were not so distorted by delusional leadership, and a public cowed and frightened enough to go along with the madness?
14
This kind of "investigative report" does no one any good. Anyone who thinks that our government has not been involved in the covert killing of it's sworn enemies has no understanding of history.
The government sends brave men to carry out it's killing orders and then leaks stories like this which is meant to do nothing but give others a chance to criticize the soldier's activities.
None of us needs to know the details of these covert activities. We just need to know that we can sleep safely at night in our beds because these brave men are standing their watch.
The government sends brave men to carry out it's killing orders and then leaks stories like this which is meant to do nothing but give others a chance to criticize the soldier's activities.
None of us needs to know the details of these covert activities. We just need to know that we can sleep safely at night in our beds because these brave men are standing their watch.
15
Well said!
3
Amen and well said!
3
What are the Seals going to do with the ones that got exposed when the President bragged about killing Bin Landen? Retired? Doesn't that fall in the category of Treason?
9/11 was a false flag op run by elements of the US government, likely with the aid of Saudi and Israeli intelligence.
A casual familiarity with how US air defense is supposed to work, or with the laws of thermodynamics, and/or the fact the 9/11 Commission was heavily criticized by ...wait for it.... *members of the 9/11 commission* should get honest and intelligent people to support 9/11 families, stop parroting the word 'conspiracy' like it proves anything at all, and call for a new and full investigation of 9/11...
to include Building 7, the apparent NORAD war gaming that precluded any air defense response, and the "dancing Israelis" and Israeli spy ring mentione don Fox news then quickly thrown down the memory hole.
Because if 9/11 turns out to have been like the mine that didn't sink the USS Maine, or the attack that didn't happen in the Gulf of Tonkin, or the Lusitania that *did* have weapons, or the USS Liberty which *was* attacked on purpose with an attempt to blame the sinking on Egypt by Israel....
Then we need to round up those responsible.
And if not - let's have all those wacky "conspiracy theorists" move on to something else - perhaps the involvement of oil companies in promoting climate change denial...
A casual familiarity with how US air defense is supposed to work, or with the laws of thermodynamics, and/or the fact the 9/11 Commission was heavily criticized by ...wait for it.... *members of the 9/11 commission* should get honest and intelligent people to support 9/11 families, stop parroting the word 'conspiracy' like it proves anything at all, and call for a new and full investigation of 9/11...
to include Building 7, the apparent NORAD war gaming that precluded any air defense response, and the "dancing Israelis" and Israeli spy ring mentione don Fox news then quickly thrown down the memory hole.
Because if 9/11 turns out to have been like the mine that didn't sink the USS Maine, or the attack that didn't happen in the Gulf of Tonkin, or the Lusitania that *did* have weapons, or the USS Liberty which *was* attacked on purpose with an attempt to blame the sinking on Egypt by Israel....
Then we need to round up those responsible.
And if not - let's have all those wacky "conspiracy theorists" move on to something else - perhaps the involvement of oil companies in promoting climate change denial...
6
I wonder if the same White House and State Department staffers who recently hosted the anti-Israel NGO "Breaking the Silence" (funded by Switzerland and Sweden, and other European countries) for alleged Israeli atrocities in Gaza last summer are also going to investigate the alleged Seal atrocities sited in this article, or the atrocities committed by US drone strikes. Fair is fair.
6
Nothing new by the way, thanks to Hollywood. It seemed it was an excellent review on any of those thousands spying-CIA-secret agents kind of actions movies.
4
All I have to say is, I'm sure glad they are around and there is no one I would want to come for me more than these folks. As to the "blurred lines", I'd say that their lines are a whole lot clearer than the quicksand of the politicians that climb on their indigent horses.
15
Limited/restricted oversight is the cost-of- doing-business in this business. And by accepting the 'limited' oversight of JSOC and Seal Team 6 operations is to acknowledge I pretty much forgo most rights to credibly criticize if military leadership fails. I can live with that. But I'm not sure Congress could. In abdicating their oversight responsibility ... to "not want to know too much" ... and then undoubtedly grandstand and criticize when things go bad (which they will do) is a cruel form of betrayal. These men and women deserve more. They deserve an appropriate level of Congressional oversight. They need to know Congress 'has their six."
3
Remember, SEALs are not the only ones who go in harm's way. There are soldiers, sailors, marines and airmen who risk as much.
1% of the population has served in the military. Of that 1%, perhaps 1% served in Special Operations - Army Special Forces, Army SFOD-Delta, Navy SEALs and Special Boat, AF Special Ops Squadrons and ParaRescue, Marine SpecOPs.
Special Operations Forces are the best and the specialists among those are very good at what they do. ST6, SFOD-D, and the other black units are remarkable.
When you call these guys in, it is not to wound, it is to kill the enemy. Rescuing hostages may be the end result, but nothing between the goal is destined to survive. Even enemy prisoner snatches can go bad and the enemy will die. There is no middle ground. Only rarely, when absolutely necessary - can they go slow.
But once the bullets start flying in hostile spaces, the idea is to win - there are no second place finishers out there. There is no calling "Hold, enough!"
1% of the population has served in the military. Of that 1%, perhaps 1% served in Special Operations - Army Special Forces, Army SFOD-Delta, Navy SEALs and Special Boat, AF Special Ops Squadrons and ParaRescue, Marine SpecOPs.
Special Operations Forces are the best and the specialists among those are very good at what they do. ST6, SFOD-D, and the other black units are remarkable.
When you call these guys in, it is not to wound, it is to kill the enemy. Rescuing hostages may be the end result, but nothing between the goal is destined to survive. Even enemy prisoner snatches can go bad and the enemy will die. There is no middle ground. Only rarely, when absolutely necessary - can they go slow.
But once the bullets start flying in hostile spaces, the idea is to win - there are no second place finishers out there. There is no calling "Hold, enough!"
12
The increasing U.S. reliance on drones and death squads (a.k.a., Seal Team 6) marks a collapse of American ideology and American realities more than any greater threat around the world.
The globe has never been short and never will be short on "bad actors" looking for targets for their ambitions. What we are witnessing now is the failure of American ideology and the reality of life in America to persuade the larger global communities in which Bush's "evil doers" arise that the U.S. is not an appropriate adversary.
In a digitally shrinking planet, people everywhere, sooner than previously, and with the immediacy of social media images and video, come to know that the American Dream has been hollowed out by sustained and increasingly Third World levels of inequality; that we no longer care for our own and immigrants are vilified; that our highways, railroads, and airports are crumbling; that Wall Street has come to resemble organized crime on a global scale, beyond the reach of the law; that our schools are failing and college education is priced out of the reach of increasingly many; that our police are gunning down unarmed suspects on the streets; that Washington is paralyzed by a political party bought and paid for by billionaires -- all these are no longer secret.
We don't look good anymore. We look fair game. And no matter how many drones and death squads are deployed, that's a tide they can't turn.
The globe has never been short and never will be short on "bad actors" looking for targets for their ambitions. What we are witnessing now is the failure of American ideology and the reality of life in America to persuade the larger global communities in which Bush's "evil doers" arise that the U.S. is not an appropriate adversary.
In a digitally shrinking planet, people everywhere, sooner than previously, and with the immediacy of social media images and video, come to know that the American Dream has been hollowed out by sustained and increasingly Third World levels of inequality; that we no longer care for our own and immigrants are vilified; that our highways, railroads, and airports are crumbling; that Wall Street has come to resemble organized crime on a global scale, beyond the reach of the law; that our schools are failing and college education is priced out of the reach of increasingly many; that our police are gunning down unarmed suspects on the streets; that Washington is paralyzed by a political party bought and paid for by billionaires -- all these are no longer secret.
We don't look good anymore. We look fair game. And no matter how many drones and death squads are deployed, that's a tide they can't turn.
12
Well said.
2
These men and women do the necessary.
That is all that should be said...
That is all that should be said...
11
Assassinations are "necessary"? I wonder if the Kennedy family would agree with you? Or MLKs family? Or President Lincoln's descendants? This country is going crazy.......
3
I would not have so much of a bad feeling about Seal Team Six if it were fighting an enemy that invaded the United States or even a secessionist movement like the Confederates in the Civil War; but the Seals' targets are people living on the other side of the world, with whom we got involved because of Bush's "wars of choice." Why kill Islamic fundamentalists in the mountains of Pakistan and Afghanistan? Because they are bad people? Because their values are different from ours? It just doesn't make sense. It seems that the "long war against terrorism" is not a just or lawful war at all, but a series of brutal gangland slaying on a global scale.
12
Perhaps you should visit that part of the world and see for yourself, rather then proselytizing in a country made safe by the men and women of our military. This would include of course Navy Seals, many members of my family, including both of my sons.
6
This article and my response to it are about the Navy Seals, not the US military in general or anyone else who who "makes us safe." I can't imagine how Team Six operations in the mountains of Central Asia "make us safe." In fact, the blowback from their activities is likely to make us LESS safe!
2
For whatever they're worth, my profoundly shallow, semi terrific ideas:
At the least, imho, the USA defense is seemingly smartly adapting, and that's a bazillion times better than insanely playing an enemy's games.
It seems to me that almost every major/large scale USA action has been with a counter-productive risk/result, and the enemy apparently wants us back on the ground to further drain our morale and take our equipment, which they
have cruelly done in their trademark depraved moral standards of massive/wholesale murdering of perceived pagan/infidel civilians.
Their followers on the world's internet apparently approve, and
their gross ideal is apparently 7th century political/religious totalitarianism.
Our nation's military is not playing the role of a naïve Uncle Fool
with unlimited resources and that impossible ecumenical objective.
Lindsay Graham & John McCain think we need to be back on the
ground probably including with prison camp for the captured enemy.
The caliph wannabe of ISIS had allegedly been our prisoner!
He's probably being guarded by way of a fortified Humvee, while reportedly selling off looted antiquities of historical civilizations.
I can't buy there's no revenge per se, and if that makes us feel
better about ourselves, then who am I to be cynical.
At the least, imho, the USA defense is seemingly smartly adapting, and that's a bazillion times better than insanely playing an enemy's games.
It seems to me that almost every major/large scale USA action has been with a counter-productive risk/result, and the enemy apparently wants us back on the ground to further drain our morale and take our equipment, which they
have cruelly done in their trademark depraved moral standards of massive/wholesale murdering of perceived pagan/infidel civilians.
Their followers on the world's internet apparently approve, and
their gross ideal is apparently 7th century political/religious totalitarianism.
Our nation's military is not playing the role of a naïve Uncle Fool
with unlimited resources and that impossible ecumenical objective.
Lindsay Graham & John McCain think we need to be back on the
ground probably including with prison camp for the captured enemy.
The caliph wannabe of ISIS had allegedly been our prisoner!
He's probably being guarded by way of a fortified Humvee, while reportedly selling off looted antiquities of historical civilizations.
I can't buy there's no revenge per se, and if that makes us feel
better about ourselves, then who am I to be cynical.
1
There is a difference between fighting and dying for your country, and fighting and dying for your *government*.
The US government is owned and managed by the MIC, the major banks and European banking dynasties, and Israel's 5th Column.
Period.
Our foreign policy has had nothing to do with defending America's vital interests for decades.
And there is no end in sight.
A healthy press would be investigating and reporting on who has gotten wealthy from 14 years of the war on 'terrrah'.
The US government is owned and managed by the MIC, the major banks and European banking dynasties, and Israel's 5th Column.
Period.
Our foreign policy has had nothing to do with defending America's vital interests for decades.
And there is no end in sight.
A healthy press would be investigating and reporting on who has gotten wealthy from 14 years of the war on 'terrrah'.
8
Dying for your country and dying for your government is a matter of opinion. Obviously you consider it dying for your government. In WWII the USA was never actually attacked, Pearl Harbor was just a naval base and Hawaii was not a state. Yet hundreds of thousands of America young men fought and died on foreign soil for their country. So what is your point?
2
What else have these troops done? I surmise they also instigated the creation of Al Qaeda.
2
No, that was the CIA
4
Same thing.
2
You may see heroes.
I see errand boys, sent by a grocery clerk, to collect a bill.
I see errand boys, sent by a grocery clerk, to collect a bill.
9
I have no doubt these SEALs are extraordinary individuals doing a very difficult job that few are capable of, and the American people owe them a great deal. However, I don't see why that means we can't have a rational discussion about the scope of their missions and whether we are misusing a powerful tool of global policy.
The US military ultimately answers to a elected civilian official as their commander-in-chief, and that commander-in-chief in turn must answer to the people who elected him (as it should be in any democracy.) The public not only has the authority, but the responsibility, to have some idea about the kind of missions our military is engaged in (even if for practical security reasons specific operations must be kept secret.)
The warriors may fight the war for the rest of us, but it shouldn't also fall on their shoulders to decide which wars to fight. The people of a democracy, through their elected officials, have the responsibility to make that decision.
However, it seems to me the general attitude from the person on the street to the President is "the less I know the better." We have both abdicated our responsibility and our authority. And if anyone dares to question this status quo, they are shouted down for their lack of patriotism. That's not a healthy attitude in a democracy.
The US military ultimately answers to a elected civilian official as their commander-in-chief, and that commander-in-chief in turn must answer to the people who elected him (as it should be in any democracy.) The public not only has the authority, but the responsibility, to have some idea about the kind of missions our military is engaged in (even if for practical security reasons specific operations must be kept secret.)
The warriors may fight the war for the rest of us, but it shouldn't also fall on their shoulders to decide which wars to fight. The people of a democracy, through their elected officials, have the responsibility to make that decision.
However, it seems to me the general attitude from the person on the street to the President is "the less I know the better." We have both abdicated our responsibility and our authority. And if anyone dares to question this status quo, they are shouted down for their lack of patriotism. That's not a healthy attitude in a democracy.
11
You call yourself "CityBumpkin," but you deserve to be called
"CitySage." Very well said indeed.
And to shout down anyone who dares to "question this status
quo...for their lack of patriotism" is not patriotism at all but
false patriotism at its worst -- the jingoism of the "summer
soldier and sunshine patriot" Tom Pain so rightly scorned and
decried so long ago!
"CitySage." Very well said indeed.
And to shout down anyone who dares to "question this status
quo...for their lack of patriotism" is not patriotism at all but
false patriotism at its worst -- the jingoism of the "summer
soldier and sunshine patriot" Tom Pain so rightly scorned and
decried so long ago!
1
Secret warfare is like a giant snake sleeping in the heart of our democracy. That snake can grow, take on new forms and kill the democracy that gave it birth. Yes, it is that serious.
4
Nice euphemism: "manhunting machine" for "death squad."
13
Before and during the Revolutionary War, the Brits effectively utilized a very violent scalp taking group known as 'Roger's Rangers.' During the Civil War, the Confederacy employed, 'with very loose strings,' John Mosby and Mosby's Raiders to great success.
As Americans, we are, by nature of the land we tamed, very conversant with, and adept in, guerrilla warfare.
Not to sound too naïve, because as a veteran I'm not; however at the end of things we Americans DO know good vs. bad; right over wrong and, at that end, will give a good accounting of ourselves as human beings. In reality, our elite fighting forces are somewhere between Jack Bauer of '24' and the quintessential 'John Wayne.' It's in our national persona to be a bit 'Davy Crockett' and 'Jim Bowie.'
As Americans, we are, by nature of the land we tamed, very conversant with, and adept in, guerrilla warfare.
Not to sound too naïve, because as a veteran I'm not; however at the end of things we Americans DO know good vs. bad; right over wrong and, at that end, will give a good accounting of ourselves as human beings. In reality, our elite fighting forces are somewhere between Jack Bauer of '24' and the quintessential 'John Wayne.' It's in our national persona to be a bit 'Davy Crockett' and 'Jim Bowie.'
2
Conducting war with commandos is one thing, but
why do American civilians expect to be rescued at all? Money for ransom is officially off the table (nod, nod, wink, wink, deniability etc.) but the life of a highly trained patriot SEAL is an appropriate?
Whatever the recruiting value of such operations for America's enemies, one canconly only assume public relations comes at this price.
why do American civilians expect to be rescued at all? Money for ransom is officially off the table (nod, nod, wink, wink, deniability etc.) but the life of a highly trained patriot SEAL is an appropriate?
Whatever the recruiting value of such operations for America's enemies, one canconly only assume public relations comes at this price.
2
Seems inappropriate for the NYTimes to report on such a confidential piece of military information. I cannot think of another country that would publish military activities in their papers.
I'm also not naive enough to think that we can be safe without the military and the 'blurred' lines; sad as that is.
I'm also not naive enough to think that we can be safe without the military and the 'blurred' lines; sad as that is.
10
Actually, Mary, it's COMPLETELY appropriate, and none of what is written here is "confidential." It's all public record...or offered to reporters by people who were "not authorized to discuss such matters." Reporting something is not a reporter's shortcoming! It's his/her strength! The journalism establishment is the fourth branch of government. Without journalists our government would run unchecked.
Remember, Mary. SEAL operators have lost their lives precisely so that Mazzetti et al could produce such good investigative reporting. (What good is a right if no one exercises it?) If they could comment from the grave, I'm sure the fallen would agree. Their lives should not be in vain.
Remember, Mary. SEAL operators have lost their lives precisely so that Mazzetti et al could produce such good investigative reporting. (What good is a right if no one exercises it?) If they could comment from the grave, I'm sure the fallen would agree. Their lives should not be in vain.
1
Seems to me that if journalism is the fourth branch of government in our republic then at least it could on occasion act in the best interests of the other three branches.
4
Let me see if I understand this paper's position on the United States military. . .
SEALS -- courageous soldiers, who, to paraphrase Orwell, stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would do us harm -- BAD.
Transgenders -- a minority of soldiers, who must be immediately integrated into all facets of the military despite generals' reasonable protestations to the contrary -- GOOD.
Did I get that right?
SEALS -- courageous soldiers, who, to paraphrase Orwell, stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would do us harm -- BAD.
Transgenders -- a minority of soldiers, who must be immediately integrated into all facets of the military despite generals' reasonable protestations to the contrary -- GOOD.
Did I get that right?
7
Yes, you did get it wrong.
In my view, The Times is providing a sliver of information upon which we, as citizens of a democracy, can begin to make future judgments about elected leadership and the limitations that should be imposed on them. Indeed, we have a responsibility to seek such information as part of our duties as citizens.
In my view, The Times is providing a sliver of information upon which we, as citizens of a democracy, can begin to make future judgments about elected leadership and the limitations that should be imposed on them. Indeed, we have a responsibility to seek such information as part of our duties as citizens.
2
Warfare is changing and now we have to be vigilant in the realm of cyberwar.
1
After digesting this article I have reason to believe Afghanistan and later Iraq were used by Special forces as live training grounds, polishing these world class assassins into the gems they are today.
With every inconsequential target in rural Iraq and Afghanistan The SEALS tweaked and ultimately perfected the raid system. From intelligence gathering to targeting, to point of entry and ultimately evacuation. Thousands and thousands of doors kicked in, innocent men women and children unjustifiably killed in their own home. Of course plenty of enemy combatants/insurgents killed as well.
I am not anti-military, I do believe these men are brave, I also believe the vast majority are of high character and sound morals. I am also appreciative of the service of all our armed forces. This article does not look to demonize these soldiers but is intended for us civilians to think critically about our Foreign and military policy.
The United states sharpened it's sword in Iraq and Afghanistan and we now have elite military operators who are un-paralleled globally. We must wield this sword with caution avoiding actions which perpetuates an endless cycle of hatred and killing.
With every inconsequential target in rural Iraq and Afghanistan The SEALS tweaked and ultimately perfected the raid system. From intelligence gathering to targeting, to point of entry and ultimately evacuation. Thousands and thousands of doors kicked in, innocent men women and children unjustifiably killed in their own home. Of course plenty of enemy combatants/insurgents killed as well.
I am not anti-military, I do believe these men are brave, I also believe the vast majority are of high character and sound morals. I am also appreciative of the service of all our armed forces. This article does not look to demonize these soldiers but is intended for us civilians to think critically about our Foreign and military policy.
The United states sharpened it's sword in Iraq and Afghanistan and we now have elite military operators who are un-paralleled globally. We must wield this sword with caution avoiding actions which perpetuates an endless cycle of hatred and killing.
2
Oh, you mean sort of what we have now?
These Navy Seals are doing God's work for sure. I am grateful for the mention of Mr. Winkler's combat ax, all special operators and Army Rangers should have the choice of arming themselves with this lethal weapon.
4
I am Canadian, and I fully support the use of Seal Team 6. When I read of the unspeakable atrocities from groups like ISIS, the Taliban, Al Queda, Boko Haram etc. I fully support these guys going in and taking them out. Somebody has to take out the garbage and my impression is that these guys do a pretty good job of getting it done.
10
Team America: World Police, huh?
Perhaps the constant bombing, murder,and interference in these countries is what facilitates the rise of extremist groups?
Nah, couldn't be.
Perhaps the constant bombing, murder,and interference in these countries is what facilitates the rise of extremist groups?
Nah, couldn't be.
5
Absolutely; well said. Most of what Seal Team6 does amounts to a type of grotesque ritual killings. As I commented below, what degree of psychopathy does one has to suffer from to stab another human being 91!!! times. (That's in the article, and written in a disturbingly casual way, as if it's, oh, just part of warfare)
2
Mike I watched Fareed Zakaria GPS today talk to a woman who had spoken about ISIS's treatement of women in Syria and Iraq. They sell them as sex slaves and took a 12 year old girl and sold to some psycopath who then burned the girl alive because she wouldn't perform some grotesque sex act. That's when when you need Seal Team 6 to go in and wipe this scum out like the cockroaches they are.
2
I see that not a few New York Times' readers, many of them I'm sure modern-day liberals (for what that's worth), are fine with Seal Team 6 and what they do.
Let's be clear: Seal Team 6 is an unregulated murder gang acting on behalf of the millionaire and billionaire swine that own super-imperialist America.
Let's be clear: Seal Team 6 is an unregulated murder gang acting on behalf of the millionaire and billionaire swine that own super-imperialist America.
9
Absolutely. Almost all our military are nothing more than mercenaries hired to protect petrochemical and other corporate interests. Every time someone talks about an Iran/Iraq war veteran "fighting for my Constitutional rights" I have to really cram down the laughter. Lawyers at the ACLU fight to preserve and protect the Constitution - not these thugs (who then get shipped home and become our police force).
3
@aaron, from the bulk of the comments I've read your opinion is somewhat mute and ill conceived. Can you you see me waving at you from the other side of the San Rafael-Richmond bridge?
1
Like it or not, this is World War III. Get used to it.
4
WWIII? You need to read about the past two, and check what made them "World Wars." Then, when it's WWIII, you'll know it!
3
All I can say to these brave men is; "Thank you".
I am a 36 year old father of two. I have never served in the military and sometimes wonder if I have not offered all that I can to reflect my love of country.
I sleep well knowing men like this serve to protect us.
I am truly at a loss as to how those of us who have not served, who have not been in combat, can question the life and death decisions these soldiers must make in the time it takes you and I to blink.
You should think about that the next time you sit down and can express yourself as you see fit.
You are able to do that because of these men, those that came before them and those that I hope are still willing to fight for us in the future.
I am a 36 year old father of two. I have never served in the military and sometimes wonder if I have not offered all that I can to reflect my love of country.
I sleep well knowing men like this serve to protect us.
I am truly at a loss as to how those of us who have not served, who have not been in combat, can question the life and death decisions these soldiers must make in the time it takes you and I to blink.
You should think about that the next time you sit down and can express yourself as you see fit.
You are able to do that because of these men, those that came before them and those that I hope are still willing to fight for us in the future.
11
Really?
Americans and their political leaders fantasize that we “fight them over there so we won’t have to fight them here.” Alas, the consequences of indiscriminate killing by our troops, drones and Seal teams inevitably rebound to plague the nation -- visible in ruined lives, a warped economy, disrupted communities and a confused, demoralized populace. Now as in Vietnam, we’re bringing the war back home.
3
Failed in Vietnam. Is failing in Afghanistan. Will fail in Iraq and Syria.
For all the use of drones and SEAL Team 6 to kill bad guys, there are always more bad guys. It's bailing water with a sieve, and the inevitable civilian deaths generate new recruits.
Now ISIS provides a new universe of targets to kill and yet another lesson in the futility of such tactics.
For all the use of drones and SEAL Team 6 to kill bad guys, there are always more bad guys. It's bailing water with a sieve, and the inevitable civilian deaths generate new recruits.
Now ISIS provides a new universe of targets to kill and yet another lesson in the futility of such tactics.
5
Attention: Ian Banwell
Your "outrage" over the supposed "disclosure of important national security information," as well as accusing the NYT of endangering "men who protect each of us," is nothing short of rank hyperbole.
If you had taken the time to do a cursory search, you would have discovered that most of the important national security information you're so exercised about is available on the Internet. As a matter of fact, there's is an expansive article posted on Wikipedia with respect to Seal Team 6, disclosing - among other things - their history, where they are based, and what they do.
Your "outrage" over the supposed "disclosure of important national security information," as well as accusing the NYT of endangering "men who protect each of us," is nothing short of rank hyperbole.
If you had taken the time to do a cursory search, you would have discovered that most of the important national security information you're so exercised about is available on the Internet. As a matter of fact, there's is an expansive article posted on Wikipedia with respect to Seal Team 6, disclosing - among other things - their history, where they are based, and what they do.
3
The Secret History of Seal Team 6 is so classified it has been on Wikipedia for 5-15 years ever since 9/11. Any 15 year old can play any number of video games involving the same Units. Airsoft has been making pellet guns so kids can simulate Spec Ops tactics in controlled wargame environments for 20 years.
All overseas CIA/DIA/SAD clandestine intelligence operations and black operations by Tier 1 Special Mission Units are by definition illegal in the foreign countries in which they occur. War is legalized murder.
Not sure where the NYT is is coming from with this poorly written and researched 'investigation'. The NYT itself broken most of the stories about Task Force 21, 88, 121, 145, etc. The NYT own reporter was rescued with extreme prejudice by the British SAS after being kidnapped by the Taliban
One British paratrooper died in the hostage rescue.
Since when is using a silenced weapon or a knife a war crime?
Apologies to the readers of the NYT and the brave and intelligent men/women of JSOC are in order for insulting our/their intelligence.
Brazo Zulu
Former resident of the WTC (Tower 2)
All overseas CIA/DIA/SAD clandestine intelligence operations and black operations by Tier 1 Special Mission Units are by definition illegal in the foreign countries in which they occur. War is legalized murder.
Not sure where the NYT is is coming from with this poorly written and researched 'investigation'. The NYT itself broken most of the stories about Task Force 21, 88, 121, 145, etc. The NYT own reporter was rescued with extreme prejudice by the British SAS after being kidnapped by the Taliban
One British paratrooper died in the hostage rescue.
Since when is using a silenced weapon or a knife a war crime?
Apologies to the readers of the NYT and the brave and intelligent men/women of JSOC are in order for insulting our/their intelligence.
Brazo Zulu
Former resident of the WTC (Tower 2)
6
Neither the Taliban, nor Iraq, nor Syria had anything to do with 9/11.
2
You signed off "Brazo (sic) Zulu," a signal I'm not familiar with.
I imagine you meant to write "Bravo Zulu."
I imagine you meant to write "Bravo Zulu."
If I were ever in a situation of being a hostage or otherwise under threat of life by the butchers now who are overrunning the Middle East, I would have more faith in a SEAL Team 6 squad coming to my rescue that all the worthless career politicians and self proclaimed "experts" from a think tank. The real test of their (politicians and think tankers) confidence in having all the answers would be to see who they would call on first for help. Perhaps they and the mousey "spokesperson" at the State Department have greater confidence than I that helping the young men of ISIS et al "get jobs and start businesses" will resolve the matter. But I'm not willing to bet my life on it.
5
Conducting war with commandos is one thing, but
why do American civilians expect to be rescued at all? Money for ransom is officially off the table (nod, nod, wink, wink, deniability etc.) but the life of a highly trained patriot SEAL is an appropriate?
Whatever the recruiting value of such operations for America's enemies, one canconly only assume public relations comes at this price.
why do American civilians expect to be rescued at all? Money for ransom is officially off the table (nod, nod, wink, wink, deniability etc.) but the life of a highly trained patriot SEAL is an appropriate?
Whatever the recruiting value of such operations for America's enemies, one canconly only assume public relations comes at this price.
I'm reminded of that saying, "if all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail."
If you've spent years training to be an elite warrior, learning dozens of techniques to kill quietly, quickly and efficiently, then I suppose it's almost "natural" to see the need for your special skill set everywhere you're dispatched. Even children are threats apparently.
And I'm sure that "tradecraft" involves ensuring that those killed by special forces are armed in death, even if they weren't in life.
As much as we need such forces, the extreme moral injury that Delta, Seal Team and SEAR members endure must be staggering. Perhaps that's why some are "outing" their former colleagues, writing bestsellers, and talking "on background" anonymously. Truth telling is healing.
Still I cannot imagine the emotional turmoil of living with being lauded as essentially an assassin--but never able to speak about the moral quandaries, or even tell family members where you're being sent next, let alone why.
Unless special forces recruits/volunteers are selected in part for having a skewed sense of morality to begin with.
Which wouldn't be surprising; wouldn't that fall under a rubric like "efficiency in hiring?"
If you've spent years training to be an elite warrior, learning dozens of techniques to kill quietly, quickly and efficiently, then I suppose it's almost "natural" to see the need for your special skill set everywhere you're dispatched. Even children are threats apparently.
And I'm sure that "tradecraft" involves ensuring that those killed by special forces are armed in death, even if they weren't in life.
As much as we need such forces, the extreme moral injury that Delta, Seal Team and SEAR members endure must be staggering. Perhaps that's why some are "outing" their former colleagues, writing bestsellers, and talking "on background" anonymously. Truth telling is healing.
Still I cannot imagine the emotional turmoil of living with being lauded as essentially an assassin--but never able to speak about the moral quandaries, or even tell family members where you're being sent next, let alone why.
Unless special forces recruits/volunteers are selected in part for having a skewed sense of morality to begin with.
Which wouldn't be surprising; wouldn't that fall under a rubric like "efficiency in hiring?"
7
The West supported the rise of ISIS to oust Assad {and control gas transit routes, and weaken Iran's ability to strike back when the US and Israel attack on the blatant lie that Iran is working on a nuke to threaten Israel with its hundreds of nukes...}
That's not from the mind of Alex Jones - that's from the Defense Intelligence Agency.
http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2015/05/newly-declassified-u-s-government...
It is also what many people suspected.
So then, what if we have a government, a neocon Deep State, and a CIA that is and has long been an above the law criminal enterprise, that is arming and training outright takfiri terrorists on the one hand, and a Pentagon sending brave, highly trained, and to be blunt probably gullible, gung ho soldiers in to kill *other* so-called "terrorists."
How do we know that the CIA isn't using the SEALs [via JSOC] to kill what amount to rival drug gangs?
The poppies in Afghanistan in 2002/3 were, I promise you, a *fraction* of what they are now. The Taliban had all but eradicated it, but now, the argument is, the farmers need to grow poppy for $ - there's no other way...
What makes a "terror suspect" in Pakistan anyway? What kind of collateral kill ratio is acceptable, and how many new terrorists have been created since 2001 directly because of "blowback"?
Ron Paul was right.
That's not from the mind of Alex Jones - that's from the Defense Intelligence Agency.
http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2015/05/newly-declassified-u-s-government...
It is also what many people suspected.
So then, what if we have a government, a neocon Deep State, and a CIA that is and has long been an above the law criminal enterprise, that is arming and training outright takfiri terrorists on the one hand, and a Pentagon sending brave, highly trained, and to be blunt probably gullible, gung ho soldiers in to kill *other* so-called "terrorists."
How do we know that the CIA isn't using the SEALs [via JSOC] to kill what amount to rival drug gangs?
The poppies in Afghanistan in 2002/3 were, I promise you, a *fraction* of what they are now. The Taliban had all but eradicated it, but now, the argument is, the farmers need to grow poppy for $ - there's no other way...
What makes a "terror suspect" in Pakistan anyway? What kind of collateral kill ratio is acceptable, and how many new terrorists have been created since 2001 directly because of "blowback"?
Ron Paul was right.
3
Lines are blurred as our enemies wear no uniforms, represent no country, hate freedom & anyone who disagrees with their religious beliefs. The Seal Team 6 have a hard job to do, one that affects them & their familites adversely as they rescue innocent people & kill others in these attempts. They aren't heroes because they kill, but because they put their lives on the line as they do their jobs, often rescuing innocent people. Saying they are a global manhunting machine is devaluating their work. Making friends is beneficial but we need non traditional measures to protect the planet against this killing machine called ISIS/L.
6
Seal Team 6 had been murdering innocents for more than three decades before ISIS/L--itself a creature of US intelligence--came onto the scene.
Keep on telling yourself fairy tales about America's foreign policy and the elite murderers who bring it to the world, but just know that fewer and fewer inside and outside the US nod their heads in agreement when you do so out loud.
Keep on telling yourself fairy tales about America's foreign policy and the elite murderers who bring it to the world, but just know that fewer and fewer inside and outside the US nod their heads in agreement when you do so out loud.
3
This article describes a group of people who fit the description of "terrorists" under generally accepted definitions of 'terrorist', including the definition used in United States Law. Okay, then they are terrorists, and your tax dollars -- fellow Americans -- are being used to support terrorism. We should shudder in horror at the though that our elements of our military have descended to such immoral depths.
5
I can't believe you have news reporters with no class to report on classified info or even criticize a job that is to protect National Security, to keep us Americans or those living in America safe. Many people don't realize the actual situation that soldiers of any military branch encounter. War is not a joke and any time can be a threat. The main goal is complete objectives and keep soldiers alive as well as protect our citizens, any hostage, or civilian. When it comes to top rank operatives I really find it hard to criticize them when they put their lives in absolute danger, obviously they have intervention and discipline from a higher ranking official, but you can't get upset. The US Armed Forces is what is, a Duty to our United States of America, to protect the land of the free, don't disrespect heroism.
8
A strategy from the Vietnam war. That one went really well for us. As a matter of fact, let's do it even more.
3
Thank you special operators for all you do.
7
hello , i was remiss in acknowledging the reporters good work at getting a good story. the NY Times has some of the best on it's staff. the comment was directed soley at the unnamed sources and those pictured.
keep up the good work, i benefit from your efforts!
b.k. san diego
keep up the good work, i benefit from your efforts!
b.k. san diego
1
To any of the special ops units who may read this article;
To many of us out here, you are heroes serving thanklessly in the dirtiest war(s) our country has ever encountered.
Thank you for what you do.
I wish it wasn't necessary, but it is, and few have the guts to do it.
Thank you.
There is NOTHING else to say.
Signed,
Jeremy
ER doc
To many of us out here, you are heroes serving thanklessly in the dirtiest war(s) our country has ever encountered.
Thank you for what you do.
I wish it wasn't necessary, but it is, and few have the guts to do it.
Thank you.
There is NOTHING else to say.
Signed,
Jeremy
ER doc
9
People are many things on the internet; heck, I'm a renowned and legendary folk hero of sorts myself. But if you truly are a physician, you would know that there's something deeply pathological and psychopathic about what these guys do. Just that one small detail of stabbing another person 91times should raise serious red flags.
If you can't distinguish between normal and psychopathic behaviour, and you're praising these murderers-for-hire, then that puts into serious doubt your judgment as a physician.
If you can't distinguish between normal and psychopathic behaviour, and you're praising these murderers-for-hire, then that puts into serious doubt your judgment as a physician.
2
And there are others of us that feel that you, the special forces, have been duped under the guise of patriotism to commit a string of government-led immoral acts that have de-stablized the world with your atrocities.
2
A gang of murderous thugs, as harsh as that may sound. One Seal6 member slashed an enemy combatant 91!!! times according to this article. To stab and slash someone 91!!! times. Please take a moment to think about that. 91 times!!! Think about the mindset.
No. These are trained murderers who serve a very dark and disturbing agenda of the establishment. They, like their masters, don't have an iota of conscience and decency.
No. These are trained murderers who serve a very dark and disturbing agenda of the establishment. They, like their masters, don't have an iota of conscience and decency.
10
There does come a point in the defense arena where the American public has to realize that military operations cannot be WATCHED like reality television in order to NOT jeopardize the team combatting terrorism. These are trained, trusted patriots who are worthy of our respect not our hypercritical arrogance.
3
......... " a global man-hunting machine with limited outside oversight."
Thank you, NYTimes, for writing about it.
Now, what are we going to "do" about it ?
I would suggest we do the same as we would do with a child who is "acting out", set some "limits".
Some of the people now campaigning for election, claim to speak for "the American people". On this issue, I have heard no one speak for me.
Thank you, NYTimes, for writing about it.
Now, what are we going to "do" about it ?
I would suggest we do the same as we would do with a child who is "acting out", set some "limits".
Some of the people now campaigning for election, claim to speak for "the American people". On this issue, I have heard no one speak for me.
4
We are splitting hairs, and are blind to the bigger picture. Every person killed is the member of a community. The effects spread to many more people than just the individual killed (his parents, for starters). The effects spread even farther and wider when mutilations or the deaths of children are involved, which most strangers find outrageous. These consequences are real and exist even if we don't acknowledge them. As more of the negative repercussions of seal team activity come to my awareness, the more that the achievements of these operations become less useful to our country, even counterproductive. I now suspect that ALL of these operations have a nonlethal alternative that would be more productive, and that we should pursue those, and abandon this seal team method of getting what we want.
5
Is Team 6 part of our military, a unit for fighting war - or, something else, something new? War, as in opposing forces working for governments and meeting on the field of battle, seems like it's going the way of the Dodo bird and may soon be extinct among developed countries.
Instead, we have splintery, secretive groups of combatants, without uniforms, seemingly without military-type leadership, hiding behind women and children and fighting for (and/or against) not governments or nations, but ideas, religious sects, each other, political and criminal opponents. And plenty of crimes of opportunity such as piracy and hostages-for-ransom, as well as stealing of assets.
Sounds more like the Mafia than conventional warfare to me.
Given this shift, is our best bet using crack military teams to lead the way into what is essentially not a military situation? Does a new kind of challenge demand a new kind of response?
Or, do we just keep going with the Donald Rumsfeld approach, using what we have, and doing it on the cheap, certain that God is on our side and the op will pay for itself - eventually?
Instead, we have splintery, secretive groups of combatants, without uniforms, seemingly without military-type leadership, hiding behind women and children and fighting for (and/or against) not governments or nations, but ideas, religious sects, each other, political and criminal opponents. And plenty of crimes of opportunity such as piracy and hostages-for-ransom, as well as stealing of assets.
Sounds more like the Mafia than conventional warfare to me.
Given this shift, is our best bet using crack military teams to lead the way into what is essentially not a military situation? Does a new kind of challenge demand a new kind of response?
Or, do we just keep going with the Donald Rumsfeld approach, using what we have, and doing it on the cheap, certain that God is on our side and the op will pay for itself - eventually?
1
JSOC, of which Seal Team 6 is a part, is a hammer in search of nail. Possessing this hammer has induced our leaders to think that the "War on Terror" can be won if only enough night raids, assassinations and kidnappings are committed. The list of targets, once completed, is followed by another list of targets, and so on forever.
The consequences of all this killing and kidnapping upon the affected societies, and the hatred it engenders there toward the United States, is insufficiently considered. Key in this is the frequent killing of non-hostile persons, an inevitable result of night raids against purportedly hostile targets. Also not considered are tears in the national and international legal fabric that result from free-wheeling, worldwide kill-or-capture night raids secretly directed by the White House.
Contrary to the evident assumptions of our leaders, radical Islam is not a gang of thugs that can somehow be wiped out, but a social and political movement with multiple expressions. The human resources of this movement are essentially infinite, and they increase with every one of our night raids.
JSOC is not making the world safer, but more dangerous. It is not protecting this country, but corrupting it.
The consequences of all this killing and kidnapping upon the affected societies, and the hatred it engenders there toward the United States, is insufficiently considered. Key in this is the frequent killing of non-hostile persons, an inevitable result of night raids against purportedly hostile targets. Also not considered are tears in the national and international legal fabric that result from free-wheeling, worldwide kill-or-capture night raids secretly directed by the White House.
Contrary to the evident assumptions of our leaders, radical Islam is not a gang of thugs that can somehow be wiped out, but a social and political movement with multiple expressions. The human resources of this movement are essentially infinite, and they increase with every one of our night raids.
JSOC is not making the world safer, but more dangerous. It is not protecting this country, but corrupting it.
7
Sensible and very wisely laid out. Those with the power to affect this awful state of affairs ought to listen.
3
The skills of Seal Team 6 operatives are being abused when they are used to kill "street thugs" and Arab villagers whose only crime is being male and owning a gun.
Those in charge of drawing up the lists of operations need to be challenged. Only a small group of American citizens have the ability to become as skilled as those who work in Seal Team 6. Such skilled fighters should be reserved for high-level operations, such as rescuing US hostages and apprehending high-level targets like Osama Bin Laden. They should not be put in situations where they are killing men merely because those men MIGHT be militants.
Our superior force and skill at being able to enter and exit from foreign nations is a grave risk. It makes us susceptible to the abuse of power and the abuse of justice.
If we don't follow strict operational guidelines, then our Seal Team members will be turned into state-sponsored terrorists, like the notorious death squads of the Nazi Einsatzgruppen or the Esquadrão da Morte in South/Central America.
Those in charge of drawing up the lists of operations need to be challenged. Only a small group of American citizens have the ability to become as skilled as those who work in Seal Team 6. Such skilled fighters should be reserved for high-level operations, such as rescuing US hostages and apprehending high-level targets like Osama Bin Laden. They should not be put in situations where they are killing men merely because those men MIGHT be militants.
Our superior force and skill at being able to enter and exit from foreign nations is a grave risk. It makes us susceptible to the abuse of power and the abuse of justice.
If we don't follow strict operational guidelines, then our Seal Team members will be turned into state-sponsored terrorists, like the notorious death squads of the Nazi Einsatzgruppen or the Esquadrão da Morte in South/Central America.
4
Maybe we should send Women's Studies majors from Brandeis University to kill off terrorists. Leave it to the New York Times to be shocked-- Shocked!-- that the group of the most elite troops in the history of the galaxy are prone to testosterone and alcohol-fueled weekends, fight under ambiguous rules and make split-second life-and-death decisions.
6
"Maybe we should send Women's Studies majors from Brandeis University to kill off terrorists."
Worth a try. They couldn't do any WORSE a job than the US military, which has radically expanded the ranks of anti-US terror groups, while spreading death and horror wherever they go.
Worth a try. They couldn't do any WORSE a job than the US military, which has radically expanded the ranks of anti-US terror groups, while spreading death and horror wherever they go.
5
Its a nasty business. To all SEALS, DELTA, and everyone else in the armed forces, thank you.
11
These Seal teams go after targets with the intention of carrying out their mission within defined parameters. The easy--and traditional-- way to eliminate high value targets taking cover in civilian areas is to simply bomb the whole area, accepting the fact that non-combatants will be killed.
Which do we want. Small units with defined missions that carry the risk of killing a few non-combatants or indiscriminate bombing which is guaranteed to kill non-combatants?
These brave men risk their lives on dangerous up-close missions so that our country does not have to resort to high civilian casualties. This is the epitome of bravery in the era of asynchronous warfare and reflects the best of American values---punish the evildoers who prey on innocents.
Which do we want. Small units with defined missions that carry the risk of killing a few non-combatants or indiscriminate bombing which is guaranteed to kill non-combatants?
These brave men risk their lives on dangerous up-close missions so that our country does not have to resort to high civilian casualties. This is the epitome of bravery in the era of asynchronous warfare and reflects the best of American values---punish the evildoers who prey on innocents.
5
This is scary. And, no, I am not going to say, as others have, that we need this type of secret "force" because our earth--our very planet--is turning into one huge warzone. And that is very, very scary.
8
I'm dumbfounded that writing about this unit and exposing it to the world with maps and names has occurred anywhere. It's troubling to me that so many people approved it, endorsing this action. To those of you who condone this, if the time ever came when we didn't have heros like these men to operate anywhere, anytime, anyway we need, I hope you are ready to step up and volunteer to defend and protect our nation in their place. My guess is you'd run away rather than step into harms way. Shame on the NY Times for publishing this article.
7
I want Team 6 on our team. I want them mean, merciless, and willing to kill with a tomahawk. Of course some folks live in an alternate universe where warriors aren't necessary-- many of these same folks have commented here. Indeed one is a hostage rescued by Team 6 who is critical of their violent means-- nuff said.
5
Each plunged tomahawk creates more enemies than it destroys, notwithstanding the bluster and salivating cheers of faux-realist war-lovers.
3
Killing people, or getting people killed is wrong.
Killing people, or getting people killed based on lies propelled by the false narrative of 9/11 is detestable.
How could our government go so wrong?
How could we let them do this?
Killing people, or getting people killed based on lies propelled by the false narrative of 9/11 is detestable.
How could our government go so wrong?
How could we let them do this?
8
This comes as no surprise to those who read contemporary fiction thrillers by Vince Flynn, Brad Thor & several others. We know they don't make this stuff up.
Are their ANY other national security secrets or classified procedures The Times would like to share with the enemy?
I would rather have an operational Taliban suicide bomber embedded in my fox hole with me, rather than a New York Times or Rolling Stone reporter.
At least that way, I would only have to worry about the enemy in my front instead of the one in my back.
I would rather have an operational Taliban suicide bomber embedded in my fox hole with me, rather than a New York Times or Rolling Stone reporter.
At least that way, I would only have to worry about the enemy in my front instead of the one in my back.
9
"A society that admires its shock troops had better be bloody careful about where it’s going."
John le Carré, “A Perfect Spy”
John le Carré, “A Perfect Spy”
10
"Navy SEAL operators awaited a night mission to capture insurgent leaders near Fallujah, Iraq, in July 2007. Credit John Moore/Getty Images"
Fallujah, of course, is the site of a huge massacre by the United States, during which all males of fighting age (along with innumerable civilians with nowhere to flee) were butchered by US forces, many, burnt alive with phosphorus.
I know this is a niggling detail, but it should have been included in the story nonetheless, just as we rarely mention Guernica without acknowledging the fascist atrocities that took place there.
Fallujah, of course, is the site of a huge massacre by the United States, during which all males of fighting age (along with innumerable civilians with nowhere to flee) were butchered by US forces, many, burnt alive with phosphorus.
I know this is a niggling detail, but it should have been included in the story nonetheless, just as we rarely mention Guernica without acknowledging the fascist atrocities that took place there.
11
I'm going to actually sleep better tonight knowing that these guys are out there.
5
Why don't you go to sleep thinking about how there are far more terrorists, and better armed, today, than there were in 2001.
Mostly because of US policy.
Mostly because of US policy.
4
Yes indeed..........dead men tell no tales. That's the pirates motto.
5
Consider the population of Afghanistan: 32 million (of which around 16 million are male).
Consider that we, the US, are the supplier of many of those guns that we consider to be the badge of the bad guy. http://qz.com/241374/the-us-has-lost-tens-of-thousands-of-ak-47s-in-afgh...
Consider that US Seal Team 6 raids killed 10-25 people a night between 2006 – 2008; that’s roughly 11,000 if we figure 15 people a night, for 365 nights, for two years. Each death represents a human being who has dozens of loved ones who will wish for revenge. Yet 11,000 people is only a small fraction of 32 million, so there will always be plenty of young people, those angry survivors, who can step into the shoes of those who died.
The use of death squads as a way to permanently eradicate opposition is clearly absurd. There will always be plenty more fighters as long as the basic facts on the ground (tribal animosity, religious fanaticism, poverty, lack of jobs, lack of effective government, etc.) remain the same.
I don’t understand our military strategy. Despite all their finesse and focus, all that the US Seal Team 6 operatives are doing is stirring up the embers of endless war. The final result is that the United States is less safe and as vulnerable as ever to another September 11-style attack.
Consider that we, the US, are the supplier of many of those guns that we consider to be the badge of the bad guy. http://qz.com/241374/the-us-has-lost-tens-of-thousands-of-ak-47s-in-afgh...
Consider that US Seal Team 6 raids killed 10-25 people a night between 2006 – 2008; that’s roughly 11,000 if we figure 15 people a night, for 365 nights, for two years. Each death represents a human being who has dozens of loved ones who will wish for revenge. Yet 11,000 people is only a small fraction of 32 million, so there will always be plenty of young people, those angry survivors, who can step into the shoes of those who died.
The use of death squads as a way to permanently eradicate opposition is clearly absurd. There will always be plenty more fighters as long as the basic facts on the ground (tribal animosity, religious fanaticism, poverty, lack of jobs, lack of effective government, etc.) remain the same.
I don’t understand our military strategy. Despite all their finesse and focus, all that the US Seal Team 6 operatives are doing is stirring up the embers of endless war. The final result is that the United States is less safe and as vulnerable as ever to another September 11-style attack.
12
I couldn't agree with you more. We as a society have become so de-sensitized to death, war, chaos, that we don't even value a single human life anymore. As if killing somebody's little girl or boy, maybe a mother or father is not enough of a travesty to incite a 100 years of insurgency.
It's as if a group of commenter's read this article like it's some sort of Hollywood trailer for the latest war movie and immediately began banging on their chest. The lack of compassion for innocent humans is disgusting.
I'm not asking people to throw rotten food or spit on a service member (I've had many family members who have served and I respect them) merely advocating a brutally honest critique of our military policies/corporate interest and Government motives.
It's as if a group of commenter's read this article like it's some sort of Hollywood trailer for the latest war movie and immediately began banging on their chest. The lack of compassion for innocent humans is disgusting.
I'm not asking people to throw rotten food or spit on a service member (I've had many family members who have served and I respect them) merely advocating a brutally honest critique of our military policies/corporate interest and Government motives.
3
Well said; bravo. I was thinking the same thing: how utterly disgusting celebrating the murder of countless innocents in sick ritual type murders. The article itself states many times that countless innocents were slaughtered, but it does so with a kind of unsettling casualness and laissez-faire, as if such is the normal state of things. It doesn't even ask that those murdered in cold blood had *nothing* to do with 9/11 whatsoever, since by now just as before we know fully well who the *real* mass murderers are.
It just goes to show how deeply brainwashed the masses are.
It just goes to show how deeply brainwashed the masses are.
1
Much of the criticism leveled at the operators of Team 6 would, in a perfect world, be resolved if all combatants wore distinctive uniforms. But they don't - so we are always left with the conundrum of who is a "fighter" and who is a "civilian" - and the fact that such roles can change instantaneously. Such is the nature of unconventional warfare. Let us not judge from afar and in retrospect the 'correctness' of decisions made in milliseconds during life or death situations. Let us simply be grateful men such as these are willing to stand in our defense.
6
While I found the article to be fundamentally fair, some of the comments reflect a naively honed sense of disapproval of special operations. Thank
God we have sailors willing to volunteer for such dangerous yet largely anonymous duty. In Vietnam I served in combat in a support role alongside special ops personnel whose sole goal was mission accomplishment. If they had swagger they earned it. What they did spared others from danger; what they did involved far fewer warriors than ordinary operations. Were even the most critical Times readers not amazed by the daring rescue of Captain Phillips? Blame their political superiors for ordering them into action, not the operators themselves. My guess is that if your loved one was held hostage you'd pray JSOC was available to mobilize. And as for oversight, the article reports several instances of command and even NCIS review. What would one prefer: a civilian panel of people who have never been in combat and, thus, cannot possibly understand the dynamics of exchanging deadly force?
God we have sailors willing to volunteer for such dangerous yet largely anonymous duty. In Vietnam I served in combat in a support role alongside special ops personnel whose sole goal was mission accomplishment. If they had swagger they earned it. What they did spared others from danger; what they did involved far fewer warriors than ordinary operations. Were even the most critical Times readers not amazed by the daring rescue of Captain Phillips? Blame their political superiors for ordering them into action, not the operators themselves. My guess is that if your loved one was held hostage you'd pray JSOC was available to mobilize. And as for oversight, the article reports several instances of command and even NCIS review. What would one prefer: a civilian panel of people who have never been in combat and, thus, cannot possibly understand the dynamics of exchanging deadly force?
3
That's the justification we used to massacre 3-5 million people—overwhelmingly civilian—in SE Asia, with napalm, high explosives, cancer causing chemicals, assassination programs like Phoenix, starvation camps, tiger cages, etc.
3
Same hawk vs dove divide in these comments that has existed in our country forever.
I remember the horrible schism in this country over the Vietnam War. Tempers and passions high. I remarked to my girlfriend's daughter, whose graduation ceremony we attended yesterday, that my brother's ceremony in 1970 was torn apart when the valedictorian criticized the war in his speech.
About a quarter of the crowd shouted him down, he shouted back, and many people stormed out of the gym!
Who was right back then, those pro or against?
Complicated answer but we know the war started with our government lying and fears born out of cold war ideology.
Most would look back to the 50's and say that France (the colonial occupiers of Vietnam) and we had no business there.
But here's my point.
Today Vietnam is a nation with which we do business.
Check the label on your pants and you'll see they made it.
President Bush visited in 2005, was welcomed warmly, and praised our good relationship. Only 30 years after we bombed them mercilessly. (think we'd do the same if it was reversed?)
Ween ourselves from the countries where find ourselves "inserted" all over the world and try another strategy - maybe we can find an end to the madness if try alternatives to spilling gallons of blood as a start.
Then, someday, you'll look at your shirt and it will say "Made in Afghanistan."
Then all Americans, hawk and dove, can unite around why our jobs are still shipped overseas.
I remember the horrible schism in this country over the Vietnam War. Tempers and passions high. I remarked to my girlfriend's daughter, whose graduation ceremony we attended yesterday, that my brother's ceremony in 1970 was torn apart when the valedictorian criticized the war in his speech.
About a quarter of the crowd shouted him down, he shouted back, and many people stormed out of the gym!
Who was right back then, those pro or against?
Complicated answer but we know the war started with our government lying and fears born out of cold war ideology.
Most would look back to the 50's and say that France (the colonial occupiers of Vietnam) and we had no business there.
But here's my point.
Today Vietnam is a nation with which we do business.
Check the label on your pants and you'll see they made it.
President Bush visited in 2005, was welcomed warmly, and praised our good relationship. Only 30 years after we bombed them mercilessly. (think we'd do the same if it was reversed?)
Ween ourselves from the countries where find ourselves "inserted" all over the world and try another strategy - maybe we can find an end to the madness if try alternatives to spilling gallons of blood as a start.
Then, someday, you'll look at your shirt and it will say "Made in Afghanistan."
Then all Americans, hawk and dove, can unite around why our jobs are still shipped overseas.
7
I don't see the point of this article. Are we trying to indict members of SEAL Team 6 for violating international law? Why is the focus on the operators? Shouldn't the focus be on their leadership and the authorities directing these missions? To me, that's where the moral morass is. SEAL Team 6 are guys and women who do a thankless job, nothing more or less. From what I can tell, they seem to have a better record than most US police departments and make fewer errors that the NYT editors on any given week.
If you think there needs to be a policy discussion around the use of elite fighting forces, then you need to focus on our war policy and counter-terroism strategy. A more interesting question is, why is it that we have to rely on elite military forces to do certain jobs in the first place?
If you think there needs to be a policy discussion around the use of elite fighting forces, then you need to focus on our war policy and counter-terroism strategy. A more interesting question is, why is it that we have to rely on elite military forces to do certain jobs in the first place?
9
Sorry. All guys, no women Seals
2
Aside from the moral issues related to what these men do in times of war or whatever we called the haze we live in now, I wonder how well the military plans for them to return to normal life. I'm sure most of them live with the effects of their service, although it's clear from history that many never make the adjustment. I hope for a world where no young man or woman is ever faced with even the possibility of becoming part of an activity like this.
7
no disrespect here:
however,
you state:
"Team 6 has successfully carried out thousands of dangerous raids..."
one raid per week for 20 years = 1,040 'missions'...
thousandS ??
our government is authorizing thousandS?
how is this possible?
and these are the "successful" ones?
what about the 'others"?
and how many of those?
goodness, i thought i was reading the New York Times...
my error.
2
I find it difficult to be critical of what takes place on a battlefield because I have never experienced combat. On the other hand, it's easier to be critical of why and where, SEAL Team 6 is being deployed. Why are we using an elite military fighting unit to free hostages, protect foreign interest, and police Afghanistan. These "operators" are risking there lives to serve the interest of politicians instead of much more critical, and possible catastrophic events from occurring. Then we become aware of the methods used to complete missions and we become applaud of the realities of combat. So the operator is the one we hold accountable for the violence on the battlefield. Instead, shouldn't we be asking why we are using a hammer when a screwdriver is better suited for the task? Maybe, the more significant dilemma isn't the method being used as to what approach is best practice. That is something that United States policy makers have to determine, and held accountable.
3
Viet Nam was not sucessful was it.
5
Sure wasn't. I was one of the 550,000 guys there in 1968.
6
Vietnam was a no win situation long before US troops arrived. Thanks France!
2
Leaving aside the possibility of misinformation in parts of the article which could not have been written otherwise, the questions remains the questions of strategy in the exercise of state power. Terrorist violence remains the tool of the helpless, sometimes to do no more than call attention to their plight. The strategic goals are never clear. But the message "Do not mess with us!" is clear! The commission of atrocities can impress villagers to avoid sheltering the enemy. But the peaceful may be helpless? Never mind!
The only problems that arise with the use of terror as policy is that the state that engages in this has weakened its title to being the beacon of liberty and peace. A light to the world? Partners in trade agreements might prefer their own standards of fairness and safety in the workplace to those of the 'civilized' American dream.
The agents of terror remain its victims. As long as they are human and thus vulnerable. If it is true that I am safer in my bed because of the sacrifice of another's humanity, I am happy to forego that 'safety.' The risk of violent death, or serious injury at the hands of dedicated and foreign killers, remains very much smaller than the risks on the highways and city streets provided by inattentive drivers with cellphones.
The only problems that arise with the use of terror as policy is that the state that engages in this has weakened its title to being the beacon of liberty and peace. A light to the world? Partners in trade agreements might prefer their own standards of fairness and safety in the workplace to those of the 'civilized' American dream.
The agents of terror remain its victims. As long as they are human and thus vulnerable. If it is true that I am safer in my bed because of the sacrifice of another's humanity, I am happy to forego that 'safety.' The risk of violent death, or serious injury at the hands of dedicated and foreign killers, remains very much smaller than the risks on the highways and city streets provided by inattentive drivers with cellphones.
3
These men signed up of their own volition to be unregulated "elite" killers for hire. They operate outside the law, in a way that's chillingly similar to the terrorists they supposedly exterminate. Sorry, they're no heroes by any standard and I don't want my taxes to pay for their activities.
8
We have Lindsey Graham, John McCain, Cheney and others lying through their teeth blaming Obama for the failure of the Cheney/Rumsfeld wars. They bypassed and left unsecured more than 600,000 tons of munitions in Iraq, since used against us. Bremer disbanded the Iraqi army and ousted the Baathists. Those became the enemy and now comprise much of ISIS. Repeat that--Cheney/Rumsfeld created ISIS. Remember "flowers in the streets," "war will last 6 weeks"? We have just watched Shiite Iraqi forces cut and run twice from Sunni ISIS forces instead of defending Sunni parts of Iraq.
If we are to keep ourselves out of the endless ground war that Cheney/Rumsfeld/Bush started, we are going to have to use the Seals, Delta, and UAV's until the Iraqis and Syrians decide they must defend themselves because we won't do it for them anymore.
If we are to keep ourselves out of the endless ground war that Cheney/Rumsfeld/Bush started, we are going to have to use the Seals, Delta, and UAV's until the Iraqis and Syrians decide they must defend themselves because we won't do it for them anymore.
7
Right On! Absolutely! Kill! Kill! Kill! That is what we have always done so well. And so frequently.............
3
Woody Guthrie,
I think you mistook my meaning. Smaller-scale "surgical" attacks are less evil than restarting the larger-scale war that destabilized the whole Middle East. There used to be Iraq, Iran, and Saudi Arabia in some balance of power (after we provided intelligence and other assistance to Iraq in its war with Iran). Plus, they saved Captain Phillips.
I think you mistook my meaning. Smaller-scale "surgical" attacks are less evil than restarting the larger-scale war that destabilized the whole Middle East. There used to be Iraq, Iran, and Saudi Arabia in some balance of power (after we provided intelligence and other assistance to Iraq in its war with Iran). Plus, they saved Captain Phillips.
1
This articles underscores one main thing:
We have for more than a decade now taken our eye off the ball, off of our real strategic adversaries: China and Russia.
That we have devoted so much time, blood, and treasure to the Middle East is almost treasonous.
We have for more than a decade now taken our eye off the ball, off of our real strategic adversaries: China and Russia.
That we have devoted so much time, blood, and treasure to the Middle East is almost treasonous.
4
I am surprised at our country and its leaders. The American people have had to endure assassinations of so many of our leaders and so many of our citizens of repute, that an observer would assume that our country would never, in a million years, indulge in such activity ourselves. And yet - here we are - sending "assassination" teams all over the world. What has happened to us? What have we become? I do not question the bravery and dedication of those who have been sent on these killing missions. But the decision-makers above them have much to answer for, though I do not believe such accounting will ever be called on. Shame on us, America!
5
We would have no need for a governmental version of Murder Inc. if we did not engage in illegal and unwarranted wars of aggression. Running an outfit such as Seal Team 6 and similar units is a disgrace to any country claiming to be civilized.
13
There are no civilized countries in this world. Some have longer periods of pretending to be civilized and a few, very few, are actually more civilized or more evolved. I'm thinking may be Costa Rica, not the USA. CR has the protection of our country so it can afford to do that. As a result the country has more money to spend on education.
Still the human species have their nasties. I bet you wouldn't mind having a Seal in your house when some one or several some ones enters your house in the middle of the night intending to rob you and just for the hell of it, kill your family.
Still the human species have their nasties. I bet you wouldn't mind having a Seal in your house when some one or several some ones enters your house in the middle of the night intending to rob you and just for the hell of it, kill your family.
"That role reflects America’s new way of war, in which conflict is distinguished not by battlefield wins and losses, but by the relentless killing of suspected militants."
ElSalvadoreans aged 50/plus might take exception to calling this our "new"eay of war
ElSalvadoreans aged 50/plus might take exception to calling this our "new"eay of war
12
Enjoy your freedom this fine Sunday? And the ability to make whatever comment you want here?
Thank a SEAL... And anyone else in uniform. Maybe try flying an American flag once in awhile. They're not expensive... Unless you add up the sacrifice e these guys and women make for us.
If not, move to that spit of sand called the Levant and try to criticize whatever you want.
Thank a SEAL... And anyone else in uniform. Maybe try flying an American flag once in awhile. They're not expensive... Unless you add up the sacrifice e these guys and women make for us.
If not, move to that spit of sand called the Levant and try to criticize whatever you want.
7
Oh, please, stop it. 9/11 and all subsequent terrorism wouldn't have happened if the US had managed to not stick its nose into Middle East politics. And many, many people contribute to American democracy. I have had it with crediting only the military for our our freedom. It is also our ability to criticize, forced on the government by protesters and lawyers who insist on following the Constitution, and voters who keep us free.
2
It is great to have you guys. I have the depest respect for your service to the country.
12
The discussion of the activities of clandestine assassination squads like the SEALS is similar in some ways to the discussion on the use of torture (a favorite practice of the SEALS, by the way).
On the one hand, we can question the legality of their actions. By their own declarations, they are operating ILLEGALLY.
On the other hand, we can question their effectiveness. Given that we've gone from approximately 300 Al Qaida operatives in Afghanistan to a gigantic, full-scale army of fanatics known as ISIS following the US destruction of Iraq, it's painfully obvious that the SEALS, Special Forces, Green Beret, etc, under the direction of a fully psychotic leadership have taken a bad problem and made it IMMEASURABLY worse, (to the tune of billions and billions and billions of our taxpayer dollars).
On the one hand, we can question the legality of their actions. By their own declarations, they are operating ILLEGALLY.
On the other hand, we can question their effectiveness. Given that we've gone from approximately 300 Al Qaida operatives in Afghanistan to a gigantic, full-scale army of fanatics known as ISIS following the US destruction of Iraq, it's painfully obvious that the SEALS, Special Forces, Green Beret, etc, under the direction of a fully psychotic leadership have taken a bad problem and made it IMMEASURABLY worse, (to the tune of billions and billions and billions of our taxpayer dollars).
16
Consider this list of familiar names, familiar to every one of us: John Wilkes Booth, Lee Harvey Oswald, Sirhan Sirhan, James Earl Ray, and many others: assassins all! Now add another to the list of assassins: The United States of America. Have we lost our minds? Have we forgotten how we have always regarded assassins and hunted them down? Have we no shame?????
5
I could just see how the effectiveness of the Seals would be extinguished if it had to submit to a "committee" who would debate ethics while opportunities would slip away. Or, to submit the question to some judge to make it judicial? This is silly talk. While intellectuals like Noam Chomsky decried the violation of Pakistan's sovereignty in the operation to kill Bin-Laden, I was delighted that they got him -whatever it took - and was proud of the SEALS.
2
Way back in the day, as the '68 Tet Offensive was winding down, I was at a debriefing of a Marine LRRP (Special Forces 1.0) that had just returned. I watched their faces, trying to read their eyes. All I could think was if these young men lived, what would their lives be like?
“He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you.” Friedrich Nietzsche, “Beyond Good and Evil”
“He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you.” Friedrich Nietzsche, “Beyond Good and Evil”
12
The "killing of bin Laden" was a political stunt to kick off Obama's 2012 presidential campaign. It is well known that bin Laden died in December 2001 of kidney disease. The videos of him after that time are obvious fakes put out by the CIA. 22 Seal Team 6 members who objected to this fraud were silenced by being loaded into a vintage Chinook helicopter and shot down.
1
"It is well known."
Any time such a statement is made for public consumption, particularly in the New York Times, it requires supporting documentation or else be regarded as unworthy of attention.
Any time such a statement is made for public consumption, particularly in the New York Times, it requires supporting documentation or else be regarded as unworthy of attention.
6
From the great portion of this comment thread, we learn what a thin line there is, if any exists at all, between nationalism and American patriotism. There are international laws agreed upon, and it is disturbing, yet not surprising, to see the world's most powerful nation engage in such anti-democratic steps. What's even more shocking is the tendency to blame every other country that would commit anything remotely similar to what it does on a daily basis. Self-righteousness is not good color on any country, and it certainly will lead to its demise, as it does to all bullies. I don't even want to get started about the other nations that sit by and let this breach of international laws and human rights happen, while condemning what suits them, but, then again, they too have their own skeletons in their closets! So much for the moral principles of a nation...
13
As a child, I believed in these myths. Now I am a man and have put away childish things. You are only a hero when you are doing the right thing for the right reason. I'm not saying many in the military are not great people, but what I am saying is this jingoism and blind love for all things death and destruction has, and will have a price. For who are these guys fighting? Big banks? BIg oil? Certainly not me. I believe in treating others as I'd like to be treated until they cross a pretty clear line. Killing people so an oil pipeline can be more cheaply run is evil.
17
These guys do their job so you can write whatever you want here, and believe in whatever conspiracy theory crosses your mind on any given day.
3
All Seal Teams (and not just Team 6) are just splendid. They are a living national treasure. USA is so lucky to have an outfit like that. Mostly they kill (very) bad guys. So no worries about them being an unregulated assassination squad. Because what they do is top secret, their achievements are not publicly rewarded. USA must be proud of them. These are the good guys giving their lives to defend you.
8
Just for the sake of comparison -- I wonder how the SEAL civilian casualty rate stacks up against that of -- the Islamist extremist throat-cutters, rapists and murderers?
Is it 100 to 1 in "favor" of the extremists? 1000 to 1? 10,000 to 1?
How about some context? It takes two to tango.
Is it 100 to 1 in "favor" of the extremists? 1000 to 1? 10,000 to 1?
How about some context? It takes two to tango.
3
The headline is quite interesting. "SEAL Team 6: A Secret History of Quiet Killings and Blurred Lines." An elite force created to do the most difficult and demanding aspects of war and counter terrorism at the behest and direction of civilian authority, The Commander and Chief of the Armed Forces of the United States, is implied to have a somewhat negative patina.
The blame for bad or immoral decisions rests with the direction they receive or is the president above blame or responsibility now because he is your "chosen one" and our bravest and best trained must bare the blame for his and his administration as do all the "I was following orders" workers so tha Barack and Hillary remain unsullied. Please be nationalists instead of the disgroceful sycophants.
The blame for bad or immoral decisions rests with the direction they receive or is the president above blame or responsibility now because he is your "chosen one" and our bravest and best trained must bare the blame for his and his administration as do all the "I was following orders" workers so tha Barack and Hillary remain unsullied. Please be nationalists instead of the disgroceful sycophants.
2
This article and Marcus Lutrells book "Lone Survivor" gives a close up of what these men and women do. It is heroic and grisly, but they were attracted to it and they signed up for it. I respect what they do for their country, but that doesn't make them any more special than you or me. What's the point of declaring that you are protecting our freedoms and justice system when you live outside of the law not only in country but at home as well?
3
Our country is at war (declared and undeclared) and has been for decades. It is the nature of societies to constantly attempt to dominate other societies and to think otherwise is foolish.
Yet the American people yearn for something that can never be - peace and harmony in the world yet we cannot even achieve this goal in our own country. Just look at Baltimore, ferguson and the race war incited by this president and his minions.
But this president and the news media somehow continues to attempt to create the illusion that the Iraq war is over and the be war in Afghanistan can be over and the we are not at war with Iran. China, ISIS, and North Korea.
Both are pandering to the falsehood that peace with these entities exists or is possible. Both are responsible for an unforgivable disservice to their responsibilities, this country and every American citizen. Shame on the nyt and this president.
Yet the American people yearn for something that can never be - peace and harmony in the world yet we cannot even achieve this goal in our own country. Just look at Baltimore, ferguson and the race war incited by this president and his minions.
But this president and the news media somehow continues to attempt to create the illusion that the Iraq war is over and the be war in Afghanistan can be over and the we are not at war with Iran. China, ISIS, and North Korea.
Both are pandering to the falsehood that peace with these entities exists or is possible. Both are responsible for an unforgivable disservice to their responsibilities, this country and every American citizen. Shame on the nyt and this president.
4
Any country on earth you think the United States should NOT invade and destroy?
Just curious.
Just curious.
2
I didn't take the article as a slight against the teams, they are doing what they are trained to do and mistakes in extreme stress are unavoidable.
My question: are we doing a disservice to the Navy Seals by overextending them?? Is it worth the risk to have these highly skilled men chase "low level thugs" - creating more chances of getting killed or hurting innocent people in the way?
I have nothing but admiration and respect for our finest military men. They are extraordinary people put into the absolute worst situations imaginable. To paint them with a broad brush is missing the point, which is do we keep sending these teams in to harms way indefinitely without ourselves being accountable for the effects of it??
(Written comfortably from my kitchen table, hoping for the safe return of our men and women in the military.)
My question: are we doing a disservice to the Navy Seals by overextending them?? Is it worth the risk to have these highly skilled men chase "low level thugs" - creating more chances of getting killed or hurting innocent people in the way?
I have nothing but admiration and respect for our finest military men. They are extraordinary people put into the absolute worst situations imaginable. To paint them with a broad brush is missing the point, which is do we keep sending these teams in to harms way indefinitely without ourselves being accountable for the effects of it??
(Written comfortably from my kitchen table, hoping for the safe return of our men and women in the military.)
6
Shame on the editors for allowing the disclosure of important national security information, and the location of this vital element of national defense. Have you no sense of propriety and patriotism? Are you so keen to further your own economic interests that you would endanger men who protect each of us? It is my great hope that others share my outrage and that you are censured. At a minimum I would hope that you would have the grace to apologize.
6
As I have previously stated, much of what was reported in this article has already been disclosed in various writings by former Seals. I have read these writings and as a retired military member, I am appalled at the lack of order and discipline and the thumbing of noses at operational requirements.
Additionally, would you rather not have journalism that sheds light on our government workings?
Additionally, would you rather not have journalism that sheds light on our government workings?
8
This is journalism. (Even then, I am surprised you have failed to see the nationalistic opinions the piece seems to invoke.)
2
Very well said, Dan, and thank you for your service to our
country!
I fear that many who don't care or want to know what is
done in their names in "defense" of their freedom ill-deserve
the freedom they have.
country!
I fear that many who don't care or want to know what is
done in their names in "defense" of their freedom ill-deserve
the freedom they have.
The article is both admiring in a bro-bonding kind of way (the authors are all men), and also questions the ethics involved in ST6's many engagements.
The subtext for me in all this: A middle aged, overweight empire, struggling with intimations of decline, or at least of average-ness rather than exceptionalism... And here are the men of ST6, a fantasy of Ninja-like supremacy come to life. In their valor, sacrifice, purity, strength, and exceptionalism, we can imagine our own, and imagine we shall vanquish all challenges. It is an infantile fantasy, where pollution and global warming and corporate power and joblessness and the banality of consumerism and trillions in debt are temporarily vanquished., and there is just one lethal, lean, totally disciplined, and totally determined body on a mission to win. With God on our side.
The subtext for me in all this: A middle aged, overweight empire, struggling with intimations of decline, or at least of average-ness rather than exceptionalism... And here are the men of ST6, a fantasy of Ninja-like supremacy come to life. In their valor, sacrifice, purity, strength, and exceptionalism, we can imagine our own, and imagine we shall vanquish all challenges. It is an infantile fantasy, where pollution and global warming and corporate power and joblessness and the banality of consumerism and trillions in debt are temporarily vanquished., and there is just one lethal, lean, totally disciplined, and totally determined body on a mission to win. With God on our side.
9
I like the way you suggest the infantilization of young men drawn into these death squads (let's call them what they are) is mirrored in the infantilization of the country at large, with generous help from the press. We are indeed hypnotized by Hollywood films like American Sniper, while the economy, the environment, our educational system and our place in the world unravel. The insane notion we can kill our way out of our problems will likely be our final undoing.
13
Governments and the military have conventionally equipped and trained themselves to perfectly fight the PREVIOUS war, not the next one. Programs such as the F-35 are a great example of a weapon system designed to fight the conventional forces of the Warsaw Pact (or China) in a massive, Cold-War style setting- and a modern enemy will find ways around it.
However, The SEAL teams, and drone warfare, are an example of the military shaping their forces and techniques to face the asymmetrical type of foe that cannot be defined by a line on a map. The warfare of the [near] future. Unfortunately, with that, comes an evolution of the antiquated idea of the "ethics" of warfare- the collateral damage, and blurry lines between civilians and combatants, and the behavior that comes with these elements.
War has always been ugly. The atrocities that we read about today have always existed [episodes like My Lai for example]- they have just never been publicized and examined the way they are today.
The SEAL teams are the pointy end of global policy, for better or worse- As Col. Nathan Jessup put it [Jack Nicholson in "A Few Good Men"]: " ...My existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, saves lives. You don’t want the truth because deep down in places you don’t talk about at parties, you want me on that wall, you need me on that wall. "
However, The SEAL teams, and drone warfare, are an example of the military shaping their forces and techniques to face the asymmetrical type of foe that cannot be defined by a line on a map. The warfare of the [near] future. Unfortunately, with that, comes an evolution of the antiquated idea of the "ethics" of warfare- the collateral damage, and blurry lines between civilians and combatants, and the behavior that comes with these elements.
War has always been ugly. The atrocities that we read about today have always existed [episodes like My Lai for example]- they have just never been publicized and examined the way they are today.
The SEAL teams are the pointy end of global policy, for better or worse- As Col. Nathan Jessup put it [Jack Nicholson in "A Few Good Men"]: " ...My existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, saves lives. You don’t want the truth because deep down in places you don’t talk about at parties, you want me on that wall, you need me on that wall. "
The "shaping" of our military forces in the new century should not include becoming assassins. That is NOT us. Never has been, and we have always opposed such behavior. Now we have become another one of those who assassinate.
3
Here, let me adjust those rose-colored glasses for you...
Your belief that we have not acted as "assassins" in the past (or even opposed it) is charmingly naive. The sad fact is, one of the historical truths of warfare was the military's ability to control the narrative- Journalists had little access to firsthand information, and as the old saying goes: "History is written by the victors." So our own behavior is either covered up or spun. There are countless episodes where your assertion has been proven laughably false.
But in the new digital age- the horrifying realities and gray areas of warfare are recorded and posted to social media every day. There's no way to control the narrative so we are always the good guys.
It's not that we didn't act as assassins in the past- it's that now there's no way to hide the fact.
Your belief that we have not acted as "assassins" in the past (or even opposed it) is charmingly naive. The sad fact is, one of the historical truths of warfare was the military's ability to control the narrative- Journalists had little access to firsthand information, and as the old saying goes: "History is written by the victors." So our own behavior is either covered up or spun. There are countless episodes where your assertion has been proven laughably false.
But in the new digital age- the horrifying realities and gray areas of warfare are recorded and posted to social media every day. There's no way to control the narrative so we are always the good guys.
It's not that we didn't act as assassins in the past- it's that now there's no way to hide the fact.
2
This is the age of new warfare. We need more of SEAL Team 6, not less of them. How can you play by the rules when the enemy has no rules at all?
8
I salute these bold warriors and thank them for what they do. The only oversight they need is from their own superior officers in the military chain of command, which ends in the White House. Those of us who sleep safe in our comfortable homes can never understand the complexity of their mission9s). Let those who are willing to risk everything for us do their duty without undue interference. Lets thank these fine patriots- and their families- for their sacrifice instead of criticizing them.
1
What bothers me about this article isn't reading about the workings of the SEAL Team 6, but rather seeing in print the names of various team members and the various strategic maneuvers used. How does this article NOT put these men and other military personnel at extreme risk? I understand the lure of an expose by the NYT and this material being a possible Pulitzer Price story, but seriously, isn't this kind of reporting irresponsible? Sometimes I think the media's own reporting of military situations is more dangerous than the enemy the Team 6 is fighting.
This is an extremely well written and documented story and I understand it's important, however, shouldn't there be a limit as to when NOT to expose something/someone?
This is an extremely well written and documented story and I understand it's important, however, shouldn't there be a limit as to when NOT to expose something/someone?
6
What was reported in this story has already been documented in the various writings by former Seals.
1
I can't imagine how knowing their names could put them at risk.
Thank you again NYT for exposing this violent group that exterminates humans because we don't like their politics. Is the world getting more civilized or less?. Suggest for the US to get out and stay out of Civil wars.
8
SEAL Team 6 is the tool, our government is the hand holding that tool. Engaging in covert action has been overtly or tacitly endorsed on a large scale since Eisenhower's presidency, but it has proven to be less than effective in almost every case when it comes to resolving the broad conflicts that we engage in across the world. Whether it's Communism or terrorism, we always need a bogeyman to keep the wars going.
Whatever we feel about these warriors, disgust, pride, ambivalence, they are just a symptom of our fear. We think we can kill the things we fear or that we don't understand and that will solve the problem, but historically this has proven to be an untenable position when it comes to combating popular sentiments in the areas we decide to war on across the world. Whether those sentiments are religious or nationalist there isn't much we can do if the whole of the people are against us. We can't kill everyone.
More oversight into these operators isn't the solution to the "problem" of SEAL Team 6, ending our endless wars is the solution.
Whatever we feel about these warriors, disgust, pride, ambivalence, they are just a symptom of our fear. We think we can kill the things we fear or that we don't understand and that will solve the problem, but historically this has proven to be an untenable position when it comes to combating popular sentiments in the areas we decide to war on across the world. Whether those sentiments are religious or nationalist there isn't much we can do if the whole of the people are against us. We can't kill everyone.
More oversight into these operators isn't the solution to the "problem" of SEAL Team 6, ending our endless wars is the solution.
8
"More SEALs carrying deadlier weapons meant that fewer enemies escaped alive."
Odd. The authors seem almost disappointed that this is the case.
I for one am quite happy fewer of our enemies escape alive.
I cannot help but think the authors enjoyed telling some of the "Secrets" of Seal Team 6. You publish a map of their base? Why not names -- and home addresses too?
To my mind, this is exactly what is needed to defeat an enemy rooted in 2,000 years of animosity toward the West. You cannot sit down with Muslim extremists and work it out over a Mochiato.
Continued, quiet kill teams taking out leadership is exactly what we need. And we need more of it. Thank God these brave men are willing to take on this task.
One more thing: The authors seem to revel in "reports" from Afghans and others about the "mistakes" Seal Team 6 has made.
Just one, could you report on a false report against Seal Team 6 -- and that our brave soldiers were found 100% non-culpable?
It just happened with the latest police shooting of a Muslim extremist in Boston who attacked officers.
The departed's brother tried to say he had been shot in the back 3 times. Thankfully, the shooting was on tape, and NOTHING of the kind too place.
I just wonder -- of all the reported mistakes of Seal Team 6 -- how many were false? The authors, like the Main Stream Media in general, seem to take ANY report on misconduct of our forces as gospel.
Odd. The authors seem almost disappointed that this is the case.
I for one am quite happy fewer of our enemies escape alive.
I cannot help but think the authors enjoyed telling some of the "Secrets" of Seal Team 6. You publish a map of their base? Why not names -- and home addresses too?
To my mind, this is exactly what is needed to defeat an enemy rooted in 2,000 years of animosity toward the West. You cannot sit down with Muslim extremists and work it out over a Mochiato.
Continued, quiet kill teams taking out leadership is exactly what we need. And we need more of it. Thank God these brave men are willing to take on this task.
One more thing: The authors seem to revel in "reports" from Afghans and others about the "mistakes" Seal Team 6 has made.
Just one, could you report on a false report against Seal Team 6 -- and that our brave soldiers were found 100% non-culpable?
It just happened with the latest police shooting of a Muslim extremist in Boston who attacked officers.
The departed's brother tried to say he had been shot in the back 3 times. Thankfully, the shooting was on tape, and NOTHING of the kind too place.
I just wonder -- of all the reported mistakes of Seal Team 6 -- how many were false? The authors, like the Main Stream Media in general, seem to take ANY report on misconduct of our forces as gospel.
7
1. Islam haven't been around for 2,000 years
2. Why does it sounds like you are talking about a war against Islam and killing their leadership is something we should do because their God is different than out God? (Yes, I know God is God).
2. Why does it sounds like you are talking about a war against Islam and killing their leadership is something we should do because their God is different than out God? (Yes, I know God is God).
1
They do not need or deserve all this attention. Media should step back!
5
Whatever it takes to eliminate the Islamic threat!
2
I think doing a story on the bravery of our WWII Veterans on this anniversary of D-Day is a more appropriate one for this weekend. If we forget history we are more apt to repeat it. A Salute to our veterans!
1
You know, the absolutely most horrifying thing about this story is the comments thread.
Are there really that many people who "sleep better at night" knowing that war crimes can be committed in their name by these secret global death squads with no public accountability?
Are they really unaware of the history of horrors this sort of blissful denial and delusion have unleashed? And they want to go there? They cheer it on?
Bad people are out there! Keep us safe! Do bad things to make it happen. Assassinate anyone our government doesn't like. Don't tell us about it. We trust you completely.
Shudder. The dumbing down of the education system in the U.S. is really complete. And for all you Seal Team 6 cheerleaders, be careful what you wish for. Because we will all suffer for your delusions.
Are there really that many people who "sleep better at night" knowing that war crimes can be committed in their name by these secret global death squads with no public accountability?
Are they really unaware of the history of horrors this sort of blissful denial and delusion have unleashed? And they want to go there? They cheer it on?
Bad people are out there! Keep us safe! Do bad things to make it happen. Assassinate anyone our government doesn't like. Don't tell us about it. We trust you completely.
Shudder. The dumbing down of the education system in the U.S. is really complete. And for all you Seal Team 6 cheerleaders, be careful what you wish for. Because we will all suffer for your delusions.
17
Chris Boese, you're absolutely right -- and the the deeply disturbing
thoughts and attitudes revealed in too many of the comments in
this thread is "...the absolutely most horrifying thing about this story"
to me as well.
The late, great cartoonist Walt Kelly was mentioned, but not quoted
here, sometime yesterday. I commented on the post and gave the
relevant quotation but didn't see it appear.
But it's certainly relevant now as well. Walt Kelly's Pogo, the 'possum
sage of Okefenokee Swamp, could have been talking about the
appalling willfully and blissfully ignorant people of this thread when he
said "We have met the enemy and he is us."
thoughts and attitudes revealed in too many of the comments in
this thread is "...the absolutely most horrifying thing about this story"
to me as well.
The late, great cartoonist Walt Kelly was mentioned, but not quoted
here, sometime yesterday. I commented on the post and gave the
relevant quotation but didn't see it appear.
But it's certainly relevant now as well. Walt Kelly's Pogo, the 'possum
sage of Okefenokee Swamp, could have been talking about the
appalling willfully and blissfully ignorant people of this thread when he
said "We have met the enemy and he is us."
1
I fail to see any problems here. If, sometimes, rules have to get bent to accomplish something, so be it. This team has accomplished more in fighting terrorism in it's short history than we, the public, will ever know. The public's "need to know" and the ridiculous idea of political correctness have no place in fighting terrorism.
I say give them all the freedom they need to continue to get the job done.
I say give them all the freedom they need to continue to get the job done.
2
You mean bend the rules to get things done, like the Baltimore Police, and the Cleveland Police and the Ferguson Police? THAT kind of bending of the rules? You may be right....it worked in those places, I guess........
2
Should the police and prosecutors have all the freedoms to get the job done if you are suspected of committing a crime?
1
The chain of command for a group like this needs to go from the officer in the field, to the officer at their HQ, directly to the President of the United States. Nobody in-between. Then the President is personally responsible for every action they take and it should be his (or her) task to make sure they don't go over the line.
4
First, the rules of war war has changed dramatically. The short explanation is that there are no rules. Gone are the days when the looser hands over his sword an life gets back to normal. Gone are the days of WWII when our enemies, 10 years after the conflict become our global partners. The US needs to adjust and special ops are part of that realignment.
So,with that said, maybe what is needed is a return to the draft. It seems people are all too willing to start wars that they feel they won't have to actually fight in or send their children into. We should also reconsider our attempt to impose democracy everywhere. As we've seen in the Middle East, it seems not to be part of their DNA at this point in time. There is a growing trend to go that direction but, using Iraq as an example, if they are not willing to fight for their own freedom it's not something that we can do for them and expect lasting results.
So,with that said, maybe what is needed is a return to the draft. It seems people are all too willing to start wars that they feel they won't have to actually fight in or send their children into. We should also reconsider our attempt to impose democracy everywhere. As we've seen in the Middle East, it seems not to be part of their DNA at this point in time. There is a growing trend to go that direction but, using Iraq as an example, if they are not willing to fight for their own freedom it's not something that we can do for them and expect lasting results.
3
"maybe what is needed is a return to the draft."
Why would the armed forces be more effective if they were loaded up with far more people than they actually needed and whose time in service would be up by the time they were fully trained?
Why would the armed forces be more effective if they were loaded up with far more people than they actually needed and whose time in service would be up by the time they were fully trained?
1
I will always be happy that the Team 6 Seals killed Oaama Bin Laden (or is it "Ladin"), As Vice President Biden said, it healsd an open wound in the American psyche. We are now dealing as a nation with barbarians who have no rules except to be barbaric. I am very happy we have a group like the Seals to deal with terrorists and to attempt rescues of US prisoners, Its hard for me to look at the ISIS executioners as being worthy of being alive - considering the incredible human suffering they cause. Anything we can do to stop such a barbaric group, short entering an endless full out war like the President appears to want, is something I completely support.
1
One thing I didn't read. How much do they earn annually for such high-risk work? I've read elsewhere only mid-60k. Shameful if that's true. 160k wouldn't compensate equitably for how much they risk, even if they make it out alive.
2
I do not blame the NYT for divulging too much information. I blame the active and former members of the teams for going against their ethos. The majority of their peers must feel only disgust for their grandstanding and profiteering. Being a U.S. Navy veteran I am a little jealous that the Delta guys have shown more discipline in this regard.
We should all keep in mind that these people are the very best at what they do but are still humans. They struggle with what they must do and what they see. We cannot ask them to go do what we need done and then scrutinize them.
We should all keep in mind that these people are the very best at what they do but are still humans. They struggle with what they must do and what they see. We cannot ask them to go do what we need done and then scrutinize them.
2
As a former Navy officer and decorated Vietnam veteran, I have nothing but praise for these warriors. To them I say Bravo Zulu. Those who don't agree are welcome to go figure out the last phrase on their own.
4
Charlie Ratigan, I say "Bravo Zulu" to you for your distinguished
service but must say a reluctant "NEGAT Bravo Zulu" for your
implication that because of their extremely dangerous duty, Seal
Team Six (or any other special ops unit, for that matter) should
be above the law.
And by the way, my father was in the very first group of American
servicemen to land in France in World War I, four cousins of mine
served in World War II, and I'm the father of a decorated field
grade officer currently serving in one of our most volatile battle
zones. None of them would have agreed, or do agree, with your
attitude.
And for those who aren't familiar with Bravo Zulu, it's a naval
signal and is the highest accolade a U.S. sailor or Marine can
give. It means "Well Done!"
service but must say a reluctant "NEGAT Bravo Zulu" for your
implication that because of their extremely dangerous duty, Seal
Team Six (or any other special ops unit, for that matter) should
be above the law.
And by the way, my father was in the very first group of American
servicemen to land in France in World War I, four cousins of mine
served in World War II, and I'm the father of a decorated field
grade officer currently serving in one of our most volatile battle
zones. None of them would have agreed, or do agree, with your
attitude.
And for those who aren't familiar with Bravo Zulu, it's a naval
signal and is the highest accolade a U.S. sailor or Marine can
give. It means "Well Done!"
Washington and many of the founders were opposed to a professional army as a threat to democracy. Nixon started the professional army because the citizen army was refusing to fight wars like Vietnam. Now we have secret mercenary assassination force inside special operations branch inside a professional army. Who gives the orders? Who are the people we are killing? The rescue operations end up killing the US mercenaries, the hostages and civilians. With the scorecard at best even and the results increasing hate and anger against the US putting US citizens at increased risk, who is gaining from these operations. When do these mercenary secret forces start operating in the US against US citizens for the purposes of whoever commands them?
8
This may sound crass, but I really don't care if a few innocent people are wrongly killed over the course of these missions. They're rescuing innocent people to begin with! It's totally abhorrent to me that this article emphasizes and questions their mistakes. War is war! Thank goodness we have these men willing to make the ultimate sacrifice.
10
So you won't mind if a few of those innocent people happen to be your family members?
3
All good until one of the innocents is your daughter or wife. Then I think you might care a little more; would you take up arms and fight back? By that rationale, you would be a 'terrorist' in the eyes of the United States. Super weird, right? Thinking is totes crazy.
6
"I don't care if a few innocent people are wrongly killed over the course of these missions."
What a stupid and careless thing to say! I am sure you'd feel differently if you were on the receiving of these "missions." Innocent lives are invaluable. Next time, give things a few minutes' thought before blurting them out!
What a stupid and careless thing to say! I am sure you'd feel differently if you were on the receiving of these "missions." Innocent lives are invaluable. Next time, give things a few minutes' thought before blurting them out!
11
Are Navy SEAL's more Navy or more CIA contract killers?
SEAL's may have to kill in the ordinary course of their armed service mission, which differs from being others' contract killers.
If the CIA needs to kill someone, the CIA should do it with its own people or forget it.
SEAL's may have to kill in the ordinary course of their armed service mission, which differs from being others' contract killers.
If the CIA needs to kill someone, the CIA should do it with its own people or forget it.
3
To second guess a Seal's action on the ground is a bit unfair. There are no angels in wars and when someone in a dark room is ready to kill you, your primal instincts are the only defense: kill or be killed. If we all want to behave like angels then please don't let chicken hawks send Seals to fight in the first place. As rational thinking humans we must get over this fighting mentality and seriously consider alternatives, like talking and negotiating, for a change. Our more rational allies like the Germans, French and other European nations do it, so why can't we stop being so macho and talk with our enemies?
40
The "rational" Germans were responsible for WWI and WW2. And the Germans and French and English and Spanish have been slaughtering each other and the rest of the world for generations. What are you, ten years old?
2
There is a difference between talking *with* someone and talking *at* someone who is not interested in conducting a parley. They tend not to listen to what you are trying to say. They aren't interested in your point of view or achieving common ground. They have their point of view and want you to bend to it, or else.
Churchill famously said that "jaw, jaw is better then war, war." Churchill also knew that war, war sometimes was necessary when the opposition was tone deaf.
Churchill famously said that "jaw, jaw is better then war, war." Churchill also knew that war, war sometimes was necessary when the opposition was tone deaf.
I agree with your assessment. Assassination and bombing failed in Viet Nam just as they are failing here. For education on the effectiveness of this two prong approach read Nick Turse's Kill Everything That Moves and Dirty Wars by Jeremy Scahill.
2
While this unit is essential to security, it also poses a threat to democracy should they become essentially unaccountable to presidential oversight- thus a highly skilled, military renegade unit.
The first dangerous fissure occurred when the Seal who killed Bin Laden decided to go public- traditionally the Seals work as an anonymous team- collectively credited with accomplishing missions while assiduously avoiding egos in the spotlight.
This kind of ego-free approach serves to contain those who would profit from their 15 minutes of fame and holds this exceptional unit accountable to civilian authority - as envisioned by the founders.
The first dangerous fissure occurred when the Seal who killed Bin Laden decided to go public- traditionally the Seals work as an anonymous team- collectively credited with accomplishing missions while assiduously avoiding egos in the spotlight.
This kind of ego-free approach serves to contain those who would profit from their 15 minutes of fame and holds this exceptional unit accountable to civilian authority - as envisioned by the founders.
3
Well, the first leaks came from a White House eager to let everyone know it was Team Six. "American Special Operations Forces conducted a successful mission to capture or kill OBL" is all they should have said. Period.
2
My thanks to the families of those perished in the line of duty!
Commenting and judging in safety is quite different from actually being out there risking their lives. I don't even know if I have the quality to lick their boots. However, who is in control of what they do is vital to our nation.
Commenting and judging in safety is quite different from actually being out there risking their lives. I don't even know if I have the quality to lick their boots. However, who is in control of what they do is vital to our nation.
2
You have to love journalists who question the means, all the while enjoying the ends. This article reads way too much like it was written by Robert Ludlum fans with an obvious agendas, instead of journalists seeking to find an honest point. Yes, I realize honesty has left the journalistic profession, and yes I realize it happened some time ago. That doesn't mean, however, that one shouldn't express disappointment when hidden agendas are seen. Hope you guys continue to enjoy the freedoms our service teams provide, all the while sitting in your lofty NY offices questioning the ways in which they provide it. Anyone of you wish to switch places with them? For my sake, I hope THEY refuse.
9
Eric, the job of journalists is to always question. Their role is as vital to democracy as the role of soldiers in war. Without the questions and introspection, democracy quickly devolves into totalitarianism.
Pure and simple: America's foreign policy has been a disaster for 50+ years and yet we still pour money, time and lives into a bottomless pit. For every "high-value" target we "take out", we virtually guarantee two or more replacements. We are the ultimate brokers of death and destruction on this planet. Whatever China or Russia do, in relative terms, is trivial. When will we stop funding the military to this extreme? When will the contractors and defense companies be held accountable? When will US corporate interests STOP dictating foreign policy? Only when the system crumbles into chaos. There is no maturity, accountability or honesty in any aspect of our system. There is only a thin veneer of fake responsibility.
9
When you've been the military force for the free world since then end of WWII you are bound to make mistakes and spend more money then any other country in the free world. And what China and Russia do is not trivial, because to ever action there is a equal or opposite reaction.
Our Special Operators be they Navy Seals, US Army Ranger, Green Berets or Delta Force are all very brave and dedicated warriors who lay their lives on the line to protect our freedoms so the NY Slimes can spill their secrets. I hope when the Jihadis come they come for thee.
6
Translation: Let the government pick my pocket to pay a gang of assassins operating without any oversight halfway around the world and keep all the grotesque details from reaching the public.
I don't think so.
I don't think so.
1
I think the article raises some interesting questions about how the US executes its national security goals. SEALs don't make policy, and JSOC leaders have been very articulate about the risks of blurring lines between what's the domain of soldiers, and what should stay under the intelligence umbrella. My issue with the article is that it seems to say "some good successes, but all for naught, because some bad things happened". Two points-after 14 years of fighting, JSOC has run over 10,000 missions in Afghanistan. They are humans. If 100 misions had serious problems, thats a 99% success rate. Same stats if 50 of 5000 operators had to be sent home over that period. Futhermore, the article underplays the real story, which is how JSOC entered a radically new environment after decades of peace, and rebuilt their entire modus operandi-from the way intel is collected and digested to the gear and tactics on the ground. It's been a phenomenal transformation. Finally, the suceess of special forces is in the quality of the selection process and training. If you met some of these guys, you'd be blown away by how articulate, professional, they are, and by what incredible problem solvers they are. But what distinguishes them the most is their commitment to the team and the mission. When asked by a new SEAL about the team's operating philosophy, T.V. (a SEAL NCO who subsequently died on duty) said "It's simple. You must be all in, all the time". I think that says volumes.
6
What is this "success" you speak of? 14 years of war for what? What exactly has been achieved? Maybe the mission and policy don't make any sense.
1
I stood on a flightline in Afghanistan last week and was reminded once again of that miserable day in 2001 when I knew we would respond in all the wrong ways to September's terrorist attacks. Here we were, trillions of dollars later, having failed to make the world a safer place. And these guys, much as I respect their skill as warriors, have killed more innocent civilians than terrorists (because if you think a guy in rural Afghanistan is a 'terrorist' or a threat to our existence, I have a bridge I'd like to sell you).
Then a white plane taxied in front of me and one impressively bearded man climbed out and walked into the terminal, holding an HK416. The plane was registered to Wells Fargo bank, as a way of shielding the government agency operating it from accountability.
Now, think back if you can to what the world was like pre 9-11, before we became so obsessed with killing, and imagine if we'd spent that money on things like education, health care, and infrastructure, like most other countries on the planet who have been surpassing us in the quality of life stakes. Not exactly the stuff of Bruckheimer, I know, but I like to think we wouldn't be so screwed as we are today, with literacy levels dropping, cops running amok with military hardware, blanket surveillance of American citizens, impossible levels of debt, unaffordable healthcare and levels of gun crime that are so out of control that the NYT has to compare them to Brazil's to make them seem palatable.
Then a white plane taxied in front of me and one impressively bearded man climbed out and walked into the terminal, holding an HK416. The plane was registered to Wells Fargo bank, as a way of shielding the government agency operating it from accountability.
Now, think back if you can to what the world was like pre 9-11, before we became so obsessed with killing, and imagine if we'd spent that money on things like education, health care, and infrastructure, like most other countries on the planet who have been surpassing us in the quality of life stakes. Not exactly the stuff of Bruckheimer, I know, but I like to think we wouldn't be so screwed as we are today, with literacy levels dropping, cops running amok with military hardware, blanket surveillance of American citizens, impossible levels of debt, unaffordable healthcare and levels of gun crime that are so out of control that the NYT has to compare them to Brazil's to make them seem palatable.
13
The equivalent to this argument as far as I'm concerned is, after Pearl Harbour in 1941, ignore the attack, forget defence spending and building up the army, forget fighting back. Build up education, produce more civilian goods, don't support England and Russia to roll back fascism and destroy its source. And it may well have worked for a while, until the fascists came here to control North America... In one sense, the current fascists are more egregious because they did come here, in 2001, and did something as bad or worse than Pearl Harbor, to innocent unsuspecting civilians. And groups with the same way of thinking want to do the same again or worse (they have said so, e.g. ISIS). Yet still one reads many comments along the lines of the one above. Definitely a great puzzle, but I do believe the bulk of the people won't buy this analysis. I do believe they understand and even Obama does, the importance of defending the country in ways that while not always easy or normally palatable, are preferable to the crude methods used 60 years ago, e.g. terror bombings of urban cities.
1
This article raises several complex issues regarding the U.S.'s military policies abroad - the most important of which, to my mind, is the issue of military incursions into sovereign nations with whom we are not at war (e.g., Pakistan). The fact that we can, and do, regularly insert military units and/or equipment across borders to assassinate foreign nationals further opens a Pandora's Box that Israel first unlocked with its Selective Assassination policies. If we think these tactics can't go both ways, we will be in for a big surprise.
A second issue, regarding the classification of military functions (e.g., regular army vs. special forces) and how various types of military echelons are to be utilized, is key to the supervision and accountability of these forces in the field. To read that Special Operations troops were being used in "regular" combat in Afghanistan, where relatively few soldiers were being asked to do the fighting, is a cause for concern in that some of them were becoming "fierce," i.e., were being caught up in all the bloodshed (a la Lt. Calley). This is not how the hearts and minds of a civilian population are to be won.
I can understand the outrage of readers who think Dr. Joseph an ingrate for questioning Wallakah's execution (especially after his having killed a rescuer), it is important to understand the doctor's mission - as well as the dynamics surrounding his captivity. Truly, Dr. Joseph is just as courageous as his rescuers.
A second issue, regarding the classification of military functions (e.g., regular army vs. special forces) and how various types of military echelons are to be utilized, is key to the supervision and accountability of these forces in the field. To read that Special Operations troops were being used in "regular" combat in Afghanistan, where relatively few soldiers were being asked to do the fighting, is a cause for concern in that some of them were becoming "fierce," i.e., were being caught up in all the bloodshed (a la Lt. Calley). This is not how the hearts and minds of a civilian population are to be won.
I can understand the outrage of readers who think Dr. Joseph an ingrate for questioning Wallakah's execution (especially after his having killed a rescuer), it is important to understand the doctor's mission - as well as the dynamics surrounding his captivity. Truly, Dr. Joseph is just as courageous as his rescuers.
1
Whether your view on this is positive or negative, look to the politicians to express your gratitude or outrage as applicable.
1
In this world of terrorism, we really, really need soldiers like Seal Team 6, but this article also makes two things clear: 1) Seals who write books and reveal secrets must be prosecuted and discincentivized from doing so; and 2) There must be tight oversight of the Seals by the military and, yes, by Congress and the Executive Branch. The Seals can be dangerous and will be foreign policy disasters on their own when they go rouge. Rescuing hostages, battling pirates, killing Bin Laden - that is heroic and something for which America can be proud.
2
99% of Americans are lost in that blissful ignorance which shelters them from the blood and bone reality of anti-terrorist warfare and the soldiers who wage it. the battle of good versus evil is never pretty or without controversy.
2
so long as it isn't russia and china doing it to your kids right?
2
So too bad if a terrorist dies in an operation, he deserves it for shooting a U.S. soldier. You cannot send a guy with a gun on a a deadly mission in which his own life is is at stake and expect him to use it only in certain cases. The Seals are heroes and should be respected.
5
The essence of it is the nature of war has changed and what is the most effective way to protect us. The psychological threat of ISIL-like terrorism is even greater than it's actuality. Horrific depections of gross, inhumane killings, torture, etc., are immediately transmitted to milions of people across the world. They however, have been much less lethal than the Nazies and Japanese who killed and tortured "millions" during WWII. This is in no way to minimize the evil and increasing threat such groups present. Rather, "small ball" anti-guerilla tactics around the world are warranted. The President has rightfully utilized all the appropriate tools in his shed and we should support the brave patriots who effect his decisions. Those who now propose inserting more ground troops into Iraq for instance - forgetting that their Bush imposed Democratic leadership wanted to prosecute our troops suspected of war crimes if we stayed- risk mission creep and perpetual conventional war with far more loss of our kids lives and treasure. Proportionate lethal response is appropriate.
The New York Times unfairly paints a portrait of Seal Team 6 as an unregulated mob of boozy fraternity buddies who routinely and indiscriminately kill and maim civilians, women and children, schoolboys, aged people and other non-combatants while pursuing ill-defined political and military engagement objectives.
The Times further suggests that this band of undisciplined killers, available on a moment's notice at 1-800-KILLS-R-US, wreaks havoc, mayhem and destruction overseas while illegally flouting the rules of international law.
“If you want these forces to do things that occasionally bend the rules of international law,” said James G. Stavridis, a retired admiral and former Supreme Allied Commander at NATO, referring to going into undeclared war zones, “you certainly don’t want that out in public.” Team 6, he added, “should continue to operate in the shadows.”
The reality is, these brave men and women risk their lives every day, on every mission to preserve and protect American lives and AWOL (the American Way Of Life). They are heroes, each and every one of them. Without their aggressive participation, the United States might miss out on a few wars overseas, and that would be no fun. SEALs should be greeted with a parade up Broadway to celebrate their triumphs and honor their fighting spirit.
Then, Seal Team 6 should be deployed to the streets of New York City, where they can help reduce and control the recent increase in gun violence and murders in the City.
The Times further suggests that this band of undisciplined killers, available on a moment's notice at 1-800-KILLS-R-US, wreaks havoc, mayhem and destruction overseas while illegally flouting the rules of international law.
“If you want these forces to do things that occasionally bend the rules of international law,” said James G. Stavridis, a retired admiral and former Supreme Allied Commander at NATO, referring to going into undeclared war zones, “you certainly don’t want that out in public.” Team 6, he added, “should continue to operate in the shadows.”
The reality is, these brave men and women risk their lives every day, on every mission to preserve and protect American lives and AWOL (the American Way Of Life). They are heroes, each and every one of them. Without their aggressive participation, the United States might miss out on a few wars overseas, and that would be no fun. SEALs should be greeted with a parade up Broadway to celebrate their triumphs and honor their fighting spirit.
Then, Seal Team 6 should be deployed to the streets of New York City, where they can help reduce and control the recent increase in gun violence and murders in the City.
10
"The New York Times FAIRLY paints a portrait of Seal Team 6 as an unregulated mob of boozy fraternity buddies who routinely and indiscriminately kill and maim civilians, women and children, schoolboys, aged people and other non-combatants while pursuing ill-defined political and military engagement objectives."
The evidence for this is overwhelming for those who have the stomach to delve into it. Terrorism has EXPLODED as a direct result of the routine atrocities against civilians committed by these US forces. Jeremy Scahill's blistering documentary Dirty Wars is a good primer.
The evidence for this is overwhelming for those who have the stomach to delve into it. Terrorism has EXPLODED as a direct result of the routine atrocities against civilians committed by these US forces. Jeremy Scahill's blistering documentary Dirty Wars is a good primer.
4
Is it in the interest of the safety of the SEALS for the New York Times to make public the specific weapons they use and other details that may be of value to the enemy? Does the public need to know they use commercial boats as spying stations? What mistakes they made? Not everything that the public has a right to know needs to be made public.
10
I admit that when I was growing up watching movies like Rambo, Delta Force, Mission Impossible (television show before the movies) James Bond films etc. etc. - I wanted to be in either special ops or a spy. Anyone who says that media doesn't influence people is either lying or crazy. That said - older persons in my family dissuaded me from doing it because of "politics". I'm glad I heeded their words. Undoubtedly, these units (and spies) do so some "good" by eliminating truly evil people (such as killing Bin Laden). All to often though they are tools for unscrupulous policies. I don't think I could have lived comfortably with myself.
4
Is the expansion and necessity of such units indicative of a collapsing world order? The raids and the rescues, however necessary at the time, will they have any effect, long term or terrorists, pirates and the like who have absolutely nothing to lose?
This is one sad world. One unit, no matter how competent, cannot fight entire populations as their government collapses and chaos reigns. And people within these units may err in judgement as they are being fired upon, exploded, etc..
But we should happy people are willing to do this type of thing and be a little understanding when things go badly.
This is one sad world. One unit, no matter how competent, cannot fight entire populations as their government collapses and chaos reigns. And people within these units may err in judgement as they are being fired upon, exploded, etc..
But we should happy people are willing to do this type of thing and be a little understanding when things go badly.
3
I cannot understand how anyone can expect our forces to be restrained and deadly at the same time. It seems very obvious that the greater the constraints the more likely hostages and rescue forces alike are endangered. When we send men and women out on dangerous, violent, bloody missions their first responsibility is for their own protection and the people they may rescue. The enemy should not be offered any mercy. None. The bad guys have one mission: Kill, maim and destroy Americans and others. There is no reason to leave any of them alive. If they get up, escape or somehow survive they'll be coming after more Americans. If the bad guys, the nations, governments and supporters of the bad guys have any complaints they know that all they must do is stop attacking, kidnapping, bombing, beheading and all the rest of their bloody mayhem. As long as they do there should be no place for them to hide and the mission of SEAL Team 6 and all of our other armed forces must be simple; Engage and destroy the enemy. That is the only mission. Engage and destroy the enemy...so we can live in peace.
4
Jay, did it ever occur to you that the bad guys just might be the Americans? It certainly has to much of the international community.
1
With more men and actions like this we could actually win wars. I am quite sure most readers of this could not comprehend why this is true or have any ability to understand why this is necessary.
2
You, along with the US military attempt to insult our collective intelligence by suggesting that we wouldn't understand. During what may have been the biggest and most threatening crisis that our military has faced, our generals tried to convince JFK to attack Cuba when the island had close to fifty SS18's and over a dozen battlefield nukes at the ready, not to mention the four nuclear torpedo subs in the Florida straits. You are in no position to tell us what is necessary, or to suggest that we don't understand, when it is the military brass that fails to comprehend the seriousness of a situation
A little more honesty in the subhead, please. SEAL Team 6 is not a 'manhunting machine," it is a man-assassinating team.
2
You know, the comments to this paper vilifying these warriors are silly - we had a column in this paper this week claiming a reality TV narcist is a hero (The Price of Caitlyn Jenner’s Heroism) and an article and much discussion about the heroism of an affluent white doctoral student/assistant professor who apparently lived with young poor black men, wrote an (almost, mostly) true book about it, and wants to be promoted and tenured based on that. When I watch Fox News I think "how closed minded, what a simplistic world these people live in, and what vehement dogma they recite for each other." When I read the comments at the New York Times the only difference is the politics so blindly adhered to and so proudly posed behind. These SEALS are necessary. The evidence of loose control is thin and dated (they say few in Congress have the stomach to investigate and that Richard Marcinko - but they don't say how much Congress is told - they don't know - and they don't note that Marcinko is a 75 year old retired man who hasn't been involved. with the SEALs since 1984. That positioning of the story - as being about insufficient oversight when there is so little reported about the oversight - and the comments here are disappointing. If you can't turn to Fox (dear God) or to the New York Times (the more disappointing observation) where is the sanity and open-minded dialogue?
6
It is easy to Hollywood-ize special forces--as thugs, meatheads, ruthless killers, remorseless and brainwashed. Members of elite forces are highly trained, carefully selected physically and psychologically, and tend to be highly intelligent. Take care when judging the actions of those placed in situations that most of us couldn't imagine, especially in assuming that members never feel remorse for making an error in judgment in a highly charged situation.
4
All of our military men and women should be as capable as the SEAL team members. They are quick thinking and very deadly as a result of the high level of training they receive in BUD/S and the following year or so after entering the SEAL teams. We desperately need these men to perform in gray areas where there are threats to our nation but no declared war. If they wind up killing civilians in the performance of a mission it is probably due to their feeling threatened. I would prefer not to lose these warriors and have them make some mistakes than see them killed by someone that could have been prevented from taking them out. The world is a very dangerous place today with multiple jihadists proclaiming their desire to kill "infidels". I say expand the number of SEAL teams and form army units modeled after the SEALS.
1
We all heard the stories. So what else is new? The Vietnam War was full of them. SOG raids that killed American deserters operating with enemy. Removing the hands for fingerprints after the intended target was "accidently" killed in the raid. The story of taking three Viet Cong up in a chopper, throwing the first one out, to elicit intelligence from the two remaining. Throwing the second one out to persuade the survivor to spill his guts out, and then throwing the last one out of the chopper---to ensure no witnesses. To quote late British politician, Gilbert Parker-"War is cruelty, and none can make it gentle."
3
You seem to know a lot about American transgressions.
Hmmm. I wonder -- what was the nature of the enemy we were fighting? Did they slaughter men, women and children relentlessly? What sort of "intel" were we after? We wanted to know where to get the best "Pho" in Saigon?
What if -- tossing out one Viet Cong -- saved hundreds of American and civilian lives? Still can't do it?
OK then YOU go over and fight, and do it your way. We will see how long you last.
With your logic, we never would have dropped the Atom Bombs on Japan. And a million more graves would be added to the 50 million of WWII. I for one am grateful to Harry Truman for saving all those lives.
Hmmm. I wonder -- what was the nature of the enemy we were fighting? Did they slaughter men, women and children relentlessly? What sort of "intel" were we after? We wanted to know where to get the best "Pho" in Saigon?
What if -- tossing out one Viet Cong -- saved hundreds of American and civilian lives? Still can't do it?
OK then YOU go over and fight, and do it your way. We will see how long you last.
With your logic, we never would have dropped the Atom Bombs on Japan. And a million more graves would be added to the 50 million of WWII. I for one am grateful to Harry Truman for saving all those lives.
Seal Team 6 is the very future of modern warfare. Instead of invading the borders of a country with 150,000 or more American soldiers (as the US did in Vietnam and Iraq with disastrous results), Seal Team 6 can make surgical strikes behind enemy lines and within the borders of unfriendly countries to capture and/or kill key members of terrorist organizations. The killing of Osama Bin Laden is the PERFECT example of how effective Seal Team 6 can be. Most Americans can just keep shopping at the malls while deciding what to wear at dinner while Seal Team 6 is out risking their lives each day to protect the free world.
1
Actually, the initial results were spectacular!
There is no fighting force on earth that can stand up to the US in a war.
It was the occupation, and the selective fighting, that took the toll on our forces.
Imagine if, in fighting German, we could have ONLY killed Nazis? That war would STILL be going on.
Unfortunately, we have let the enemy set the terms for this war. There will be no designated battlefields, and as we learned on 9-11, civilians ARE a target. It seems like we have found the best solution to a vexing problem. The best strategy? MORE kill teams. It is the only language Muslim extremists understand.
There is no fighting force on earth that can stand up to the US in a war.
It was the occupation, and the selective fighting, that took the toll on our forces.
Imagine if, in fighting German, we could have ONLY killed Nazis? That war would STILL be going on.
Unfortunately, we have let the enemy set the terms for this war. There will be no designated battlefields, and as we learned on 9-11, civilians ARE a target. It seems like we have found the best solution to a vexing problem. The best strategy? MORE kill teams. It is the only language Muslim extremists understand.
This is a great article, thank you New York Times. Troubling stuff. Like many Americans, I love a good hero. Some one or group that can rescue kidnapped people or find and capture (or kill) a man responsible for something like 9/11. I would have loved to see Seal Team 6 rescue the hundreds of school girls captured by the Boco Haram folks in Africa.
We seem trapped in the axiom in our military that if something is good, more is better. My opinion is that these types of operations should be used very sparingly. I would love to see a NY Times editorial detailing what you guys think. What should the big picture be? How can the military get there?
We seem trapped in the axiom in our military that if something is good, more is better. My opinion is that these types of operations should be used very sparingly. I would love to see a NY Times editorial detailing what you guys think. What should the big picture be? How can the military get there?
2
Right. Ever consider --- for a moment -- that SOME of the accusations against the Seal Team members may be false? To wit:
Muslims are allowed to lie to unbelievers in order to defeat them. The two forms are:
Taqiyya - Saying something that isn't true.
Kitman - Lying by omission
It just happened in Boston with the police shooting of another Muslim extremist. His brother tried to say the dead Jihadist was shot in the back 3 times -- that is -- until the video came out. Now? Not so much.
So before you go on and believe with all your little heart that EVERY accusation against our SEALs is 100% true --- consider the above. Thank you.
Muslims are allowed to lie to unbelievers in order to defeat them. The two forms are:
Taqiyya - Saying something that isn't true.
Kitman - Lying by omission
It just happened in Boston with the police shooting of another Muslim extremist. His brother tried to say the dead Jihadist was shot in the back 3 times -- that is -- until the video came out. Now? Not so much.
So before you go on and believe with all your little heart that EVERY accusation against our SEALs is 100% true --- consider the above. Thank you.
1
I am glad the military has a unit such as this. It can eliminate enemies without having to win the approval of political activists who really have no what is happening from countries who wish to do us harm. I say the more the merrier.
As abhorrent as Seal Team 6 mandate appears to be, it is high time America woke up to a war being fought on several fronts. The least conspicuous is the traditional battlefield; the more prevalent is and likely to be in cyberspace. China to a great extent and Russia have a head start. Perhaps a CyberSeal Team should act in a pre-emptive manner to surprise the enemy that the US can match cyberwarfare tactics.
We are fortunate to have good public resources that can be used to serve the general public. Like most other public resources, I wonder how long before the special forces fall under the influence and control by wealthy citizens through campaign contributions of course.
1
Have we relinquished all reason and sanity since 9/11? Have we become just another rogue nation run by rogue 'leaders'?
War may be messy but since when did Congress declare war?
War may be messy but since when did Congress declare war?
1
Ummmm...I would say it is absolutely sane to kill those who would slit your throat and sell your children into slavery.
You can't work it out with Muslim extremists over a Mochiato. This is exactly the tonic that is needed -- at exactly the right time.
Let's say a dirty bomb goes off in Central Park, and it is unusable for the next 1000 years. What sort of missions would you OK at that point?
What if the attack is even worse? Can we use harsh language, at least?
You can't work it out with Muslim extremists over a Mochiato. This is exactly the tonic that is needed -- at exactly the right time.
Let's say a dirty bomb goes off in Central Park, and it is unusable for the next 1000 years. What sort of missions would you OK at that point?
What if the attack is even worse? Can we use harsh language, at least?
What ifs are not a reason to go to war. We have strayed so far from our Principals. Having watched the Towers burn from my place of employment at that time; I still see no justification for the what ifs.
1
The story is a disturbing one, as are many of the comments from people I normally agree with on this page, who declare themselves "fine" with Seal Team 6 and what they do. For me, the situation illustrates the towering arrogance of the USA on the international stage.
While demanding other countries abide by international law and treaties and loudly proclaiming our commitment to law and order, under the banner of "keeping America safe" we break not only international law but our own laws.
Assassination and targeted killings are against US law, but Seal Team 6 routinely carry them out. In time of war, that is one thing. But we haven't been officially at war since August 1945. Contrary to international law, we have drone-killed over 5,000 citizens of Pakistan, a country officially allied with us! The criteria used for selecting victims is secret, a "kill list" drawn up by a star chamber, and it has included American citizens.
Imagine how we would react if another country in the world (China?) were roaming the planet with death squads taking out its enemies (as determined in secret) or flying drones over Mexico or Canada killing their citizens.
Exactly. Then we wonder why we are despised by some, suspected by more, and considered hypocrites by most.
While demanding other countries abide by international law and treaties and loudly proclaiming our commitment to law and order, under the banner of "keeping America safe" we break not only international law but our own laws.
Assassination and targeted killings are against US law, but Seal Team 6 routinely carry them out. In time of war, that is one thing. But we haven't been officially at war since August 1945. Contrary to international law, we have drone-killed over 5,000 citizens of Pakistan, a country officially allied with us! The criteria used for selecting victims is secret, a "kill list" drawn up by a star chamber, and it has included American citizens.
Imagine how we would react if another country in the world (China?) were roaming the planet with death squads taking out its enemies (as determined in secret) or flying drones over Mexico or Canada killing their citizens.
Exactly. Then we wonder why we are despised by some, suspected by more, and considered hypocrites by most.
6
What stood out in this article is that not all Seal Team operatives come directly from military ranks. No matter how qualified these recruits may seem, there is something to be said for learning military discipline and values prior to being granted the latitude given to the Teams.
The other standout, is that while the rules of engagement are absolutely blurred in modern warfare, only extraordinarily strong Team leadership will be able to keep operative groups from going outside the edges of moral warfare.
This will not come, nor should it come from Congress or from JSOC. Moral leadership must come from the ranks and be embedded in the Teams.
Lastly, there will be civilian casualties, always. It is an unfortunate result of war. Special Operations Groups are necessary, and deserve our gratitude for doing what 99.9% of us would never be able to fathom. This disjointed and confusing article did not do the entire subject justice.
The other standout, is that while the rules of engagement are absolutely blurred in modern warfare, only extraordinarily strong Team leadership will be able to keep operative groups from going outside the edges of moral warfare.
This will not come, nor should it come from Congress or from JSOC. Moral leadership must come from the ranks and be embedded in the Teams.
Lastly, there will be civilian casualties, always. It is an unfortunate result of war. Special Operations Groups are necessary, and deserve our gratitude for doing what 99.9% of us would never be able to fathom. This disjointed and confusing article did not do the entire subject justice.
2
Given the clandestine, smoke and mirrors nature of this unit, how do we know any of the information found in this article is true?
1
What this long-winded article fails to explain is why are there so many people in the middle east who want to harm America? Does it have something to do with the western invasions and attempts to overthrow their elected governments and replace them with Islamic fundmentalist dictators? Are the designated "terrorists" or "rebels" simply people who are fighting back against the aggressors who are destroying their countries? These questions need to be answered.
6
They themselves are destroying 'their countries'. Just look at any scenes from ISIS controlled areas, totally rubble. Islam is just not the religion of peace.
Guys like this are necessary equipment in every military's arsenal ... BUT ... to expend them in far away places is utter foolishness; something germane to US foreign military policy since WWI. They would be better utilized sniffing out threats at home instead of shooting dogs in foreign countries.
3
I'm fine with a "license to kill." We ask our special forces to go above and beyond the dirty work that no one dares to to.
8
"License to Kill"??? When did we become a nation of assassins? Throughout history, that is what the "bad guys" did, and we always tried to prevent it. Now we have become "them". I admire every member of every one of these teams, and consider them heroes. However, the people who assign them to missions have put us into a very shameful position. Those heroic teams should be used to rescue prisoners or capture "bad guys" and bring them here. We have lost our way. Permanently, I fear, and our leaders will one day be on someone else's assassination list.
2
In Cambodia (the secret bombings) we killed thousands of civilians. These raids by Seal team six on suspected targets limits the unnecessary killings of civilians. There job is hard enough. Leave them alone.
12
You imply that there exists such a thing as "necessary killings of civilians"! Well, I suppose that is the way we look at things and do things nowadays. Evidently the police in our cities have been doing "necessary killings" for years......
1
The majority of those innocent (ahem) civilians were aiding and abetting the flow of Viet Cong and arms to the south through Cambodia.
It is a great piece of journalism, indeed; however, I wonder if this kind of journalism is in the military interests and safety of the nation. Wars have always existed, clandestine operations have by itself by part of major international conflicts. If we can't allow this operations to exist then we would abstain from going to wars. Is that possible? Would the writer, o the likes of him, take the high moral road if he finds himself, or a loved one, placed in a position to serve the country in such fashion? The world, war, international conflicts are sophisticated and dangerous; wars have never been a clean business. What good is to demonize these men who were fated to serve this country in that manner? Is it a thing of their doing?
This is a great article yet it does a great disservice to the men and women in uniform. Articles of this ilk, like those who claim that wounded are being unnecessarily overcompensated are an attack on the men who served and those who died.
This is a great article yet it does a great disservice to the men and women in uniform. Articles of this ilk, like those who claim that wounded are being unnecessarily overcompensated are an attack on the men who served and those who died.
11
Right. Besides, isn't the current administration the most transparent in history?
As long as Snowden is alive, I will view Seal Team Six's mission as failed.
"We sleep soundly in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would do us harm." - Winston Churchill
12
Such a long article and not one mention of Jeremy Scahill's 2013 movie "Dirty Wars," an exhaustively and dangerously researched study of specifically the subject matter of this article.
To me, that is journalist travesty.
To me, that is journalist travesty.
4
Why would the author mention a one sided documentary? Scahill took only the facts that backed his opinion and then filled it with a lot of conjuncture and ideology. The best part is the title "Dirty Wars" as if there ever has been a "clean war!" How do you feel about the actions of the allied soldiers who killed almost 20,000 French citizens in the two months after D Day? Nobody is calling that a dirty war, it's just the reality of war!
I think of Team 6 as a brake on the momentum of all the terrorists groups who have pledged to bury us. If you are constantly having to look over your shoulder as all these groups must, it's much harder to execute an effective plan of action. May that fear always be there.
4
Good for Seal team 6 and others. There is no rational reason to tie the hands of our service heroes when they go into combat. soldiers on the frontlines in combat do not need to be told how to fight by cowardly democrats in the white house. They and their officers already know how to fight, we don't need oboma and his fellow cowards.
6
If you are referring to President Obama,wasn't he the one who authorized the mission for Seal Team 6 to capture and kill Osama bin Laden?
1
cowardly democrats? Why because we don't believe in bombing a country that did absolutely nothing to us?
2
When was bin laden killed?
God bless each and everyone one of them and their families for their sacrifice on our countries behalf.
11
These young men, turned killers/murderers, are tragic victims of a "government" gone fascist and imperialistic! They are the "means" to "justify" whatever sinister "end" their families, their friends, the people of America and the world are never meant to ever know about. So much for "democracy", for "morality" and for "humanity".
12
So that you can sleep at night and enjoy freedom.
These guys are great. I'm glad they are on the job.
6
problems to be sure, especially with the shortsighted overuse of the extant force, however, the mobile team force concept is the way forward past the outdated (now clumsy, expensive, and inefficient) division/battalion concept...what's needed are layers under the prime team 6...6a, 6b and so on, varying in size and specialty, all capable of independent action and in various combinations according to mission requirements.
3
One of the hardest thing for those who take control and take action to accept is that in most instances the best course is to do little or nothing.
How did nearly every Afghan go from having a WWI hand me down to a modern killing weapon?
What is wrong with a mindset under such circumstances that practically has to view every armed individual as threat to our interests or armed incursion?
What is the difference between strategy and tactics?
These are basic questions those running our military are responsible for addressing intelligently and instead they are trained and conditioned mostly to cover their rears.
Meanwhile our congress can't even summon up the courage to debate a series of undeclared military engagements, $1.6 Trillion and counting. Our conservative men of courage prefer to take on soft targets- non-existent voter fraud; social security 'entitlements'; tenured professors and state supported education; The Affordable Care Act. What's wrong with this picture?
How did nearly every Afghan go from having a WWI hand me down to a modern killing weapon?
What is wrong with a mindset under such circumstances that practically has to view every armed individual as threat to our interests or armed incursion?
What is the difference between strategy and tactics?
These are basic questions those running our military are responsible for addressing intelligently and instead they are trained and conditioned mostly to cover their rears.
Meanwhile our congress can't even summon up the courage to debate a series of undeclared military engagements, $1.6 Trillion and counting. Our conservative men of courage prefer to take on soft targets- non-existent voter fraud; social security 'entitlements'; tenured professors and state supported education; The Affordable Care Act. What's wrong with this picture?
3
This feature will probably win a Pulitzer Prize and the reporters did good work but Times readers recall it was bad information which reporter Judith Miller wrote about that led to the Iraq invasion as a threat for their supposed development of weapons of mass destruction. Our Military responds to threats to protect us. Having just observed another D Day anniversary from WWII,a few of us who have either served in the military or reserves or know relatives injured in battles are aware that mistakes and collateral damage are always going to happen. Better oversight of Seal Team 6 Missions may help a bit but all the consulting firms around the Pentagon and other military centers like Central Command in Tampa should also be investigated for questionable spending and advice that in part Seal Team 6 relies on.
6
Our military protects its budget. That's it.
1
Now that we got that out of the way, secret military operations we need not know about, we can move on to the issues that affect me and you directly. I am referring to: 1. The secret Iran nuclear deal. 2. The secret pacific rim trade deal. 3. The secret deal to relocate 70,000 foreigners a year into cities and towns in the United States without any say from the citizens directly impacted.
I would like to see these subject treated equally by the investigative dept.
I would like to see these subject treated equally by the investigative dept.
9
How disgusting we have become, is well illustrated in this article and pictures. A bad end awaits.
6
I think articles exposing clandestine operations should not be published. In order to keep our military safe there are some things that should be kept secret. Let these brave soldiers do their job and let us say thanks by not exposing them to the enemy.
12
Oh, such suspenseful and breathless accounts of what American soldiers are paid to do. Perhaps next time we should invite the bad guys to a tea party or a twelve step group.
4
The idea that the men could discriminate during a raid between combatants and non-combatants or between "terrorists" and "civilians" or those who pose a threat and those who do not is simply nonsense - they are in a kill-or-be-killed situation by the very nature of the operation. When a raid is authorized, this means there will be indiscriminate killing. This is no different from say, dropping bombs on cities as was the norm in WW II. The mistake is in thinking that it is different - that they are making "surgical" strikes that will not cause resentment in populations. The frequent authorization of these raids amounts to declaring war on the countries where they are carried out - or so it is perceived by the inhabitants.
11
If raids such as those we carry out were carried out against us (and they eventually will be), I would consider it a declaration of war. I am sure you would also......
It seems that special forces work best when you use sparingly on high value targets. When use routinely against lesser targets their value is diminished. This also impacts oversight. If used less frequently oversight is lees of a burden. Every organization has to answer to review.
5
All true but you also want your special ops to be training ALL the time as much as you can in all situations---use your best assets as much as possible to keep them the best.
Ultimately you want a cadre of "super soldiers" who are well trained professionals who can respond to any incident in a matter of hours totally changing the idea of and need for a standing army
Ultimately you want a cadre of "super soldiers" who are well trained professionals who can respond to any incident in a matter of hours totally changing the idea of and need for a standing army
They do the things that conventional forces can't in time of war. They are a needed option in a war where options are limited to conduct time critical sensitive missions where failure isn't an option.
5
Bush rules of engagement:Don't pursue the enemy it might offend Pakistan.Obama rules engagement:Announce yourself before a clandestine raid.Fear the politicians not the warriors.Thank You Seal Team 6 and shame on the glory hounds in the Obama administration for revealing your existence.
13
Bush: "I don't know where OBL is, and I really don't care"
Obama: "Tonight, we found OBL and killed him"
Actions speak louder than words, epecially words from a Texan who's "All hat and no cattle"; a chickenhawk draft dodger who lands in the back seat of a jet and proclaims, erroneously, "Mission Accomplished".
People like Phelan are so intoxicated by FOX Kool Aid, they wouldn't recognize the truth if it was taring them in the face; which it is.
Obama: "Tonight, we found OBL and killed him"
Actions speak louder than words, epecially words from a Texan who's "All hat and no cattle"; a chickenhawk draft dodger who lands in the back seat of a jet and proclaims, erroneously, "Mission Accomplished".
People like Phelan are so intoxicated by FOX Kool Aid, they wouldn't recognize the truth if it was taring them in the face; which it is.
1
Everyone with a brain, who bothered to be informed of such things, knew of the existence of "Seal" team 6 before the Obama administrations. Apparently you are't aware that it is now called The United States Naval Special Warfare Development Group (NSWDG), or DEVGRU, and has been since "seal team six" was officially disbanded in 1987.
Now, go complain about Obama somewhere else.
Now, go complain about Obama somewhere else.
1
I think that happened when one of them wrote a book and Clint Eastwood made it into a movie!!
1
With such a military organization, we shouldn't be afraid of ISIS, Boko Haram or any other terrorist group. These brave guys do their job good, much better than their leaders, sitting in the Pentagon.
10
I wish the administration was as transparent with TPP as they are with our national defense secrets.
25
You will have to wait for Snowden to get all the facts for the rest of us.
1
Agree. Never has so much been leaked by so few to harm so many .
The comments here are simply incredible and this line comes to mind: "... man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very freedom that I provide, and then questions the manner in which I provide it.. "
Pure cowardice and ingratitude is what this reeks. The sort of people who will vilify America at any opportunity but will run to the nearest embassy or consulate if someone so much as stares at them in a foreign bar. Tragic.
Pure cowardice and ingratitude is what this reeks. The sort of people who will vilify America at any opportunity but will run to the nearest embassy or consulate if someone so much as stares at them in a foreign bar. Tragic.
11
Next war let's have referees.
6
I think it is odd to read comments in THIS paper of all papers, where anti-war comments are reliable, as see so many pro-military comments. If we sent the regular army to get the job done, everyone whines. Send in an ambushing assassination squad (and yes, that is what they are, sorry flag wavers) and its God Speed Soldier! The take-away for me is not whether what they do is good or bad, but rather that, once again, like we have seen so often with the police, those who are doing the killing are unaccountable to the public that supposedly is in charge around here. I call myself a "lefty" but I am not sure I recognize a left that is comfortable with unaccountable government killers roaming around regardless of who is currently seeing the muzzle end of their suppressed H&K MP7. It gets harder and harder to argue that the left actually stands for anything other than gay rights.
10
Obviously the left stands for much more than gay rights but in this particular issue the key is nuance and complexity, things the right isn't really very good at. I can't imagine your average lefty is "comfortable" with SEAL Team 6 but we do recognize that this type of military action seems vastly preferable to the blundering ineptness of Bush's Iraq folly.
2
You do know that these guys are directly responsible for you and your family being safe...and therefore your freedom to be a liberal pie in the sky the world is roses f-tard.
Being a liberal...do you even the ability, or capacity, to see that the world is full of killers and others who for religious reasons would like to see you dead...and that for this reason we NEED seal team 6.
Thank you guys for your sacrifices guys and gals. SOME of us appreciate you.
Being a liberal...do you even the ability, or capacity, to see that the world is full of killers and others who for religious reasons would like to see you dead...and that for this reason we NEED seal team 6.
Thank you guys for your sacrifices guys and gals. SOME of us appreciate you.
The essence of this article is found with this: "Even an American hostage freed in a dramatic rescue has questioned why the SEALs killed all his captors."
Undoubtedly worried the captive would be brutally killed, these young strangers risk their lives to save the captive and then they have their motive questioned in true NYT Sophomoric style. They could have shot the weapons out of their hands or just wound then, or even better yet, took a moment to counsel then on their errant ways.
But like the cop on the beat, they wanted to get home that night. So without the mythical luxury of TV heroes skills, they went into battle in a war and killed the enemy, ever last one of them! Knowing these enemy warriors would not capture or kill again.
Undoubtedly worried the captive would be brutally killed, these young strangers risk their lives to save the captive and then they have their motive questioned in true NYT Sophomoric style. They could have shot the weapons out of their hands or just wound then, or even better yet, took a moment to counsel then on their errant ways.
But like the cop on the beat, they wanted to get home that night. So without the mythical luxury of TV heroes skills, they went into battle in a war and killed the enemy, ever last one of them! Knowing these enemy warriors would not capture or kill again.
10
I lost all credibility in this article when I read of "America's" new way of war, an ambiguous formulation which did not explain that in fact the enemy has chosen this way to fight, or the reported "questioning" by a captive freed in a raid whether too many captors were killed. (My answer: go fly a kite).
Many other examples could be given, from the furrowed brows at some of the special weapons (as if Allied commandos in WW II didn't use silencers and daggers), to the apparent non-irony of the statement that the weapons aren't mere ornaments.
There is a place for an objective, fair look at the modes and results of any military operations; an article of this tone does not achieve that, not anywhere close.
In fact if this kind of thing had been written during WW II, particularly with searching looks at the often unfortunate or needless death tolls on both sides, morale would have collapsed and the Allies would have lost the war, I'm convinced of it.
This points up the great difficulty of a modern democracy standing up to the challenge of today's authoritarians and megalomaniacs. Hitler, Goering and finally Stalin counted on that irresolution to steamroller Europe, intimidate America and rule the world with others like-minded. They were wrong about the Allies in the final result. That was then.
Many other examples could be given, from the furrowed brows at some of the special weapons (as if Allied commandos in WW II didn't use silencers and daggers), to the apparent non-irony of the statement that the weapons aren't mere ornaments.
There is a place for an objective, fair look at the modes and results of any military operations; an article of this tone does not achieve that, not anywhere close.
In fact if this kind of thing had been written during WW II, particularly with searching looks at the often unfortunate or needless death tolls on both sides, morale would have collapsed and the Allies would have lost the war, I'm convinced of it.
This points up the great difficulty of a modern democracy standing up to the challenge of today's authoritarians and megalomaniacs. Hitler, Goering and finally Stalin counted on that irresolution to steamroller Europe, intimidate America and rule the world with others like-minded. They were wrong about the Allies in the final result. That was then.
6
It’s easy to be critical or find disgust with the scope of what Seal Team 6, Delta Force or any other variation there of does until it’s you or a loved one being held captive. I wonder how many lives have been saved by the courageous actions of these men. Until the time comes when their specialized skill set is no longer in demand, their presence is one of the trade offs in today’s insane world.
I don’t recall hearing many boos when Bin Laden was taken out. We can’t have it both ways - complain about these guys and find fault, but yet expect them to risk their lives by saving ours.
I don’t recall hearing many boos when Bin Laden was taken out. We can’t have it both ways - complain about these guys and find fault, but yet expect them to risk their lives by saving ours.
13
How many lives have they saved? I'd be surprised if you needed both hands to count them. In any case, that number would be dwarfed by the lives they've taken.
1
"A Heckler & Koch MP7 firearm, top, fitted with a suppressor to reduce muzzle flashes and sounds, and an MP5, a submachine gun widely used by law enforcement officers. In the American military, the MP7 is used only by Delta Force and SEAL Team 6. Some police SWAT teams have also bought it."
Think about that for a minute.
we are arming and training our police, whose job is to protect and serve, with elite weapons that are used on the deadliest enemies on Earth.
And then we're sending these police into our neighborhoods.
We have militarized everything. Except the military, which increasingly is being outsourced to private "security" and run by the CIA.
all of course under the radar and away from scrutiny.
Obviously we need these types of troops. But how many? And for what purpose? How can we keep control if we dont know where they are or what they're doing?
All we get is glorified Hollywood accounts to drum up support, as the units expand ever more quickly in both numbers and purpose.
The SEALS are but a tool. But look at who wield them. Have their decisions and actions been above reproach?
After all, everything starts to look like a nail if all you have is a hammer.
Sad.
Think about that for a minute.
we are arming and training our police, whose job is to protect and serve, with elite weapons that are used on the deadliest enemies on Earth.
And then we're sending these police into our neighborhoods.
We have militarized everything. Except the military, which increasingly is being outsourced to private "security" and run by the CIA.
all of course under the radar and away from scrutiny.
Obviously we need these types of troops. But how many? And for what purpose? How can we keep control if we dont know where they are or what they're doing?
All we get is glorified Hollywood accounts to drum up support, as the units expand ever more quickly in both numbers and purpose.
The SEALS are but a tool. But look at who wield them. Have their decisions and actions been above reproach?
After all, everything starts to look like a nail if all you have is a hammer.
Sad.
14
Must be nice to comment about what the police are now using, from the comfort of Minnesota!! When the cops here in the New York area, in and out of the city make drug busts of the gangs we have here, the tables in a news conferences are covered with weapons that range from altered hand guns and AK47's, to grenades, claymore mines, and the latest nigh time weaponry. They constantly update their fire power to take on any and all police action. You realize that by saying, ' Obviously we need these types of troops ' you understand the ' dirty 'business of war, but yet you want 100% accountability for everything that happens?!!... It's not going to happen!! I just wish that our news organizations would report a lot less about their operations and the very sites where they train!
Nice work providing intelligence collection for our enemies.
19
Yes, the detailed map of the Seal training base in Virginia was utterly unnecessary
1
Your "enemies" probably already knew all this already as it is clear the SEALs having been doing what they do for some time. I doubt there is anything in here that actually compromises them.
2
Unknowing hit men conned by the bankers continually creating perpetual war.
7
The modus operandi of SEAL teams today resembles Argentine's paramilitary killing squads during the 1970s' dirty war. Of course, SEAL teams are better trained, equipped, discipled and more lethal than their Argentine counterparts.
As a former member said: “When I was in, we were always chasing wars,” said Mr. Zinke, the congressman and former Team 6 member. “These guys found them.”
As a former member said: “When I was in, we were always chasing wars,” said Mr. Zinke, the congressman and former Team 6 member. “These guys found them.”
5
We need them but it is a fine line that they walk. There needs to be controls but they need to have the ability to strike with lethal force. The mental training has to be there along with the physical training. Over sight is the key and that oversight should not be made public. It is appalling that so much has been made public knowledge.
6
Secret oversight. Remarkable concept!
Some of the costs of perpetual warfare. Where in the Middle East, or in Northern Africa, or in the Horn of Africa, has the political climate improved because of U.S. military intervention? It seems that with each new intervention comes new lethal outcomes. And domestic needs? Investment in military adventures does very little for the economy except for "defense" contractors.
13
If you look at anyone under a microscope long enough, you will find something you prolly didn't expect. But still they are heroes for doing what they do and that is to sacrifice their time serving our country. However we should strive to be better because our enemy is also trying to defeat us. And the battle is not always fought militarily, but also fought through the minds and hearts of people around the world. And that is why President Obama is so great. When we captured Bin Laden we deposed of the body with proper considerations.
3
This is not going to end well.
7
If you want it neat, tidy, sterile, and legal? Then don't go to war. If you want the really ugly stuff done that has to be done in war (no ROE, no taking prisoners, no taking prisoners back to the US for trial) then do what DOD has done for the last 13 years. They call 1-800-call-seals!! If you want something different, enlist in the Navy & go for BUDS. Until then, sit down, shut up & color, because these incredibly dedicated men are doing the really dirty work for you.
You're welcome!
You're welcome!
27
America should be thankful to these warriors and that people like them do this type of work. I've met Commander Richard Marcinko at a book signing and he was a down to earth guy. His book the Rogue Warrior was a great read.
However horrified one might be over these disclosures we are not going back to Revolutionary War days when men with muskets lined up in brightly colored circus uniforms across an open field and marched forward. While I regret that this kind of warfare is necessary, I am glad my country excels at it. And the very last thing we need is yet another round of grandstanding congressional hearings or moralistic investigations. It's nasty. It's dirty. It's necessary. Live with it.
27
I am a SEALs fan
Ready to lead...Ready to follow...Never Quit.
As a former navy Commander I appreciate the dangerous
missions the SEALs go on without hesitation.
This is what Truman meant when he said...
When the going gets tough...the tough get going.
We should all be grateful and beholding to these fine commandos who seek out those who would destroy us and everything we stand for.
Rob O, Neil is a great role model for today,s ME generation.
Well done SEALs...stay safe.
Blog: paul martin foreign correspondent
Ready to lead...Ready to follow...Never Quit.
As a former navy Commander I appreciate the dangerous
missions the SEALs go on without hesitation.
This is what Truman meant when he said...
When the going gets tough...the tough get going.
We should all be grateful and beholding to these fine commandos who seek out those who would destroy us and everything we stand for.
Rob O, Neil is a great role model for today,s ME generation.
Well done SEALs...stay safe.
Blog: paul martin foreign correspondent
14
Yes, and many orders of magnitude more heroic than the recent NYTs column on the "heroic" Bruce Jenner.
1
How can it be such a secrete when the NYT headlines a whole story on their front page. It is almost like gossip. And, how often is any killing not blurred. The person may act out of threat or intention or duty but none takes away from the life lost. Lee understood when he said “It is well that war is so terrible–we would grow too fond of it!”
4
It's not almost like gossip, it's exactly like gossip.
Is anyone the least bit surprised by this article? What is the point? To cast doubt or discredit them? The New York Times is great at casting moral judgments on things they don't agree with and casting them in the most negative light possible. Why? Are they so steeped in their liberal ideology that the only truth is their version of it?
Can the authors share the classified briefings or the documents they've acquired for them to question the honesty and integrity of these men? Since special forces often assist in targeting sites for strikes how would they do it? How would they kill a Gadaffi or bin Laden? They are obviously have been better trained and will operate at a far highrr plane, so let's hear it. Let's hear how you would do it better. These authors only want to fight using the Marquise of Queensberry rules. Maybe they should write the Rules of Engagement since they are the only one smart enough to understand them
One final point. How easy is it to criticize something you are incapable of doing. We've just witnessed it
Can the authors share the classified briefings or the documents they've acquired for them to question the honesty and integrity of these men? Since special forces often assist in targeting sites for strikes how would they do it? How would they kill a Gadaffi or bin Laden? They are obviously have been better trained and will operate at a far highrr plane, so let's hear it. Let's hear how you would do it better. These authors only want to fight using the Marquise of Queensberry rules. Maybe they should write the Rules of Engagement since they are the only one smart enough to understand them
One final point. How easy is it to criticize something you are incapable of doing. We've just witnessed it
17
Yes, how easy it is to criticize something you are incapable of doing. Like, perhaps, writing for the NY Times? This was a fascinating article that left me both disgusted and admiring; a strange balancing act of emotions. It appears like this, indeed, may be the way that war is fought in the future, but it's hard to accept because we have always tried to equate the waging of war with a moral high ground. A cause. To see one of the SEAL's chests marked with a tatoo of hand to hand combat - I just don't get that kind of glorification of killing. I confess to not understanding the SEAL mentality at all - but when they killed Osama bin Laden, I felt very grateful for their courage. I am also really, really glad that the NY Times reports these in-depth stories that bring us all closer to understanding the unvarnished truth about where we are as Americans, instead of the publicized "truth." This is an excellent piece, disturbing but enlightening. How pitiful that some people use stories like this, i.e. non flag waving, not in-line with their particular point of view, as a soap box to scream about liberalism. How tired I am of such simplistic thinking.
As usual, it is their motto" all the news thats fit to print, according to their views; True reporting, yeah sure it is, as was gobbels,and germany's propaganda machine. The difference is that freedom of speech allows such here in America, in my opinion;
Just be happy these guys are on our side.
21
War is messy, and special operations are even messier. The problem with special forces is that, when they become a way of life, they start to take on the characteristics of the things we stand against rather than the things we stand for. They become efficient killers, and killing becomes the objective and not the military necessity.
21
Agreed! The history books reveal many instances of such turnaround.
So how is this war going? You have to wonder if after September 11, 2001 we had stayed out of Afghanistan and ultimately Iraq things might be better.
15
In the article, it's stated that war is not revenge. Afghanistan looks like revenge for September 11. Iraq looks like revenge for President George W. Bush's hurt pride. Where to this day is the strategy for either conflict? Remember the rush into when Rumsfeld said you go to war with the Army to have, not the one you wish you had? So much sadness reaped by revenge.
1
The headline is not accurate: These killings might seem quiet to Westerners, but they certainly resound in Afghanistan and throughout the Muslim world.
Blurred lines (the headline got this right) are a part of war. For example, Osama and Al-Awlaki had to be eliminated, by any means necessary. Not even our most hardened enemies have tried to make propaganda hay of these killings.
In my view, however, the civilian casualties recounted in this article, have probably helped our enemy.
For example, in a separate article, the NYT reports that the Taliban has "overrun" Badakhshan, the sliver of Afghanistan between Pakistan and Tajikistan, which the Taliban had never managed to take in the nineties, when the Taliban ruled the rest of Afghanistan without much objection from the rest of the world. How could the Taliban gain so much support in an area that had heroically resisted them for decades?
The article also reports that ethnic Tajiks joined the Taliban in the "overrun" of Badakhshan. Ethnic Tajiks had been more or less immune to Taliban recruiting efforts, because of the assassination of Ahmad Massoud (the "Lion of the Panjshir," anti-Taliban hero, an ethnic Tajik and revered by Tajiks ) on the day before 9/11.
If Tajiks are now joining the Taliban, that shows how much more popular the Taliban is becoming...
Blurred lines (the headline got this right) are a part of war. For example, Osama and Al-Awlaki had to be eliminated, by any means necessary. Not even our most hardened enemies have tried to make propaganda hay of these killings.
In my view, however, the civilian casualties recounted in this article, have probably helped our enemy.
For example, in a separate article, the NYT reports that the Taliban has "overrun" Badakhshan, the sliver of Afghanistan between Pakistan and Tajikistan, which the Taliban had never managed to take in the nineties, when the Taliban ruled the rest of Afghanistan without much objection from the rest of the world. How could the Taliban gain so much support in an area that had heroically resisted them for decades?
The article also reports that ethnic Tajiks joined the Taliban in the "overrun" of Badakhshan. Ethnic Tajiks had been more or less immune to Taliban recruiting efforts, because of the assassination of Ahmad Massoud (the "Lion of the Panjshir," anti-Taliban hero, an ethnic Tajik and revered by Tajiks ) on the day before 9/11.
If Tajiks are now joining the Taliban, that shows how much more popular the Taliban is becoming...
11
Taliban recruitment techniques have been well documented in the pages of the NY Times, and creating sympathy for their cause isn't one of them. You may have missed or forgotten multiple reports in Western media and worldwide condemnation of the Taliban rulers of Afghanistan from 1996-2001 for burning homes and fields, murdering and starving thousands of non-Pashtun Afghans and destroying the Buddha statues at Bamyan. But selective memory is essential for effective handwringing...
The purpose of the military is to kill people and break things, and outfits like Seal team 6 are the best in the world at doing this. They do the necessary dirty work overseas to help keep America a safer place in the world that we the public for the most part do not hear about, and that's the way it is meant to be. To sit at your computer and comprise a smug judgement on these brave young men's actions and motives is the highest form of delusional cowardice !
36
macman007 says it all, there are educated judgements here
I was about to write exactly what you did ... Only you did it better. Agree 100%. Classic upper East side "holier than thou" bias that brave people have to do really difficult things.
1
By your definition the fire bombing of Dresden in WWII was justified?
1
The USA, like most governments, has government sanctioned hit squads. The SEALs are just hit squad members, trained killers, paid for by our government. Time to admit this. The Vietnam war exposed so much of the CIA and military hit men.
11
I beg to differ.
As long as this "Seal Team" operates on US soil or under a written order and acceptance of the government of the country in which it operates, or even under a UN mandate, the thing is OK.
But as soon as this group operates only based on a US order in a foreign land then this is simply a crime, to be precise, it is terrorism.
As it is a crime, it should be treated as such and the team members should be put in court and sentenced according to the law of the land they committed their crime in.
The US would not react in any other way if the act was committed by any other foreign special ops team.
If e,g, Spetsnaz would operate the way the US did in Pakistan to extract someone the Russian government had classified as a criminal from e.g. Florida, the US would call it for what it is: state sponsored terrorism.
So why the heroic description about a US special ops team?
Let us call it what it is: outside the US it is state sponsored terrorism, no heroism, no bravery but a simple crime under international and local law.
As long as this "Seal Team" operates on US soil or under a written order and acceptance of the government of the country in which it operates, or even under a UN mandate, the thing is OK.
But as soon as this group operates only based on a US order in a foreign land then this is simply a crime, to be precise, it is terrorism.
As it is a crime, it should be treated as such and the team members should be put in court and sentenced according to the law of the land they committed their crime in.
The US would not react in any other way if the act was committed by any other foreign special ops team.
If e,g, Spetsnaz would operate the way the US did in Pakistan to extract someone the Russian government had classified as a criminal from e.g. Florida, the US would call it for what it is: state sponsored terrorism.
So why the heroic description about a US special ops team?
Let us call it what it is: outside the US it is state sponsored terrorism, no heroism, no bravery but a simple crime under international and local law.
13
The legal position for the operations being discussed is of public record and set forth in this Council on Foreign Relations backgrounder:
http://www.cfr.org/counterterrorism/targeted-killings/p9627
While the CFR to its credit refers to an opposing view, I have no doubt reading it that the American position is correct. Given the American proclivity for legality, if there was any doubt about the legal basis I am sure action would be taken in the courts a la challenging the NSA's use of certain phone metadata. I haven't heard of any.
And I don't understand the purported analogy regarding Spetsnaz. Russia would take the same risk the U.S. takes when operating outside its borders to protect its national security, i.e., the territory of operations might try anyone captured under its domestic laws. What does that have to do with the validity of the U.S. position that its foreign special operations are a form of self-defence and necessary to protect fully the American people? Nothing.
http://www.cfr.org/counterterrorism/targeted-killings/p9627
While the CFR to its credit refers to an opposing view, I have no doubt reading it that the American position is correct. Given the American proclivity for legality, if there was any doubt about the legal basis I am sure action would be taken in the courts a la challenging the NSA's use of certain phone metadata. I haven't heard of any.
And I don't understand the purported analogy regarding Spetsnaz. Russia would take the same risk the U.S. takes when operating outside its borders to protect its national security, i.e., the territory of operations might try anyone captured under its domestic laws. What does that have to do with the validity of the U.S. position that its foreign special operations are a form of self-defence and necessary to protect fully the American people? Nothing.
Again, I do beg to differ.
The Baby Bush administration made a joke from then existing legal statuses.
Under International law, the legal authority of any given state ends at it's borders.
That has been and still is a legal standard that the US administration has broken countless times.
No matter what legal "explanation" they come up with, their actions are simply criminal and terrorist actions under International law until the government of the country in which the operation takes place does agree and/or there is a UN Security Council OK.
International law is also about the power to shield one against retaliation.
What the US has done was to make a joke of existing law by simply enforcing a US point of view by pressuring, that is in fact blackmailing, foreign governments to accept US operations on their soil.
Just because of fear of retribution by the US armed forces and/or economic sanctions enforced by the US government and nothing else.
So the US, despite all it's legal mumbo jumbo is in breach of the law as soon as there is targeted killing or special forces operations outside it's jurisdiction.
In fact, the US government under Bush I even made a law that would make it illegal to break US federal law outside US jurisdiction just to enable US retaliation and/or police/armed forces operations even without the consent of the local government or the UNSC.
That is very much in line with my Spetsnaz example.
Just consider a Russian operation to kill someone in Miami.
The Baby Bush administration made a joke from then existing legal statuses.
Under International law, the legal authority of any given state ends at it's borders.
That has been and still is a legal standard that the US administration has broken countless times.
No matter what legal "explanation" they come up with, their actions are simply criminal and terrorist actions under International law until the government of the country in which the operation takes place does agree and/or there is a UN Security Council OK.
International law is also about the power to shield one against retaliation.
What the US has done was to make a joke of existing law by simply enforcing a US point of view by pressuring, that is in fact blackmailing, foreign governments to accept US operations on their soil.
Just because of fear of retribution by the US armed forces and/or economic sanctions enforced by the US government and nothing else.
So the US, despite all it's legal mumbo jumbo is in breach of the law as soon as there is targeted killing or special forces operations outside it's jurisdiction.
In fact, the US government under Bush I even made a law that would make it illegal to break US federal law outside US jurisdiction just to enable US retaliation and/or police/armed forces operations even without the consent of the local government or the UNSC.
That is very much in line with my Spetsnaz example.
Just consider a Russian operation to kill someone in Miami.
1
It's fascinating to read this LONG story about SEAL Team 6. There is a sense of quixotic heroism in their excessive behaviour.
While SEALs had been quite "successful" in Afghanistan, their raid in Somalia to kill an al-Shabaab senior commander in October 2013, their rescue missions last year to free James Foley, held hostage by ISIS in Raqqa, Syria and to free Luke Somers captured by the Al-Qaeda in Yemen, were misses.
So high-tech weapons and excellent training are no guarantee for success. Luck is equally important!
While SEALs had been quite "successful" in Afghanistan, their raid in Somalia to kill an al-Shabaab senior commander in October 2013, their rescue missions last year to free James Foley, held hostage by ISIS in Raqqa, Syria and to free Luke Somers captured by the Al-Qaeda in Yemen, were misses.
So high-tech weapons and excellent training are no guarantee for success. Luck is equally important!
5
Live by the sword, die by the sword...
10
So a noncom says the members of Seal Team 6 "shoot to kill..." I certainly hope so! These brave men are following the gutsy tradition of George Washington's famous crossing of the Delaware on Christmas Day, 1776. Tsk, tsk. Those poor Hessians were surely snoozing after having their brats and schnapps under the tanenbaum. What gave Washington the moral right to mount a surprise attack??
I was born in France under the Nazi heel in 1944. My two brothers and I did a total of twelve years active service as commissioned officers in the Navy (me) and Marine Corps (them) to thank the greatest country on earth for saving us and the world. My wife, a native born American, cried at the Pointe du Hoc. "How could they climb that rock face and take this promontory in the face of those bunkers?" she asked. "It was easy. Civilization was at stake," I said. We forget that civilization is often at stake, and that eternal vigilance is the price of liberty. The flip side of that is that if you roll over and let the enemy trample you, the civilian casualties are infinitely greater than if you resist at the start. That's why St. Malo is today a reconstruction after being flattened in the battle. It's why all the stained glass windows of the church at St. Mere Eglise depict paratroopers coming down from heaven, and why the American flag flies from all the flagpoles. Seal Team 6 has evolved from these traditions, and God bless them.
I was born in France under the Nazi heel in 1944. My two brothers and I did a total of twelve years active service as commissioned officers in the Navy (me) and Marine Corps (them) to thank the greatest country on earth for saving us and the world. My wife, a native born American, cried at the Pointe du Hoc. "How could they climb that rock face and take this promontory in the face of those bunkers?" she asked. "It was easy. Civilization was at stake," I said. We forget that civilization is often at stake, and that eternal vigilance is the price of liberty. The flip side of that is that if you roll over and let the enemy trample you, the civilian casualties are infinitely greater than if you resist at the start. That's why St. Malo is today a reconstruction after being flattened in the battle. It's why all the stained glass windows of the church at St. Mere Eglise depict paratroopers coming down from heaven, and why the American flag flies from all the flagpoles. Seal Team 6 has evolved from these traditions, and God bless them.
120
Your Washington comparison is backward.
The British were in OUR house and an attacker in one's home is fair game.
We are the British in this case and we are in THEIR home.
So, like Washington they attack US and try to get US off of THEIR Afghan or Iraqi soil.
We are the foreigners in this case.
What if King George had a seal team that consistently assainated every leader of our nation?
NOT to compare our founders with the anti democracy movements we oppose, but each new leader we kill gives way to an equally militant or more so replacement pledged to drive us out and seek revenge.
When does it end?
You can't kill hatred or lust for vengeance.
Violence makes it worse. Blood lust has to expiration date.
Mao eventually changed and met Nixon (!)
Do you think Mao's replacement or anyone in China would have been inclined to at last form a relationship with us if we had assassinated him? No, they would hate us forever.
This tactic, this reliance on Seal Team 6 as policy, is a loser tactic in a flawed strategy.
But at least it satisfies OUR blood lust over 9/11.
Blood lust is the common bond here.
Oh, and you may have noticed Washington beat the people on HIS soil.
The person whose home it is always wins…cause they ain't goin' away.
The British were in OUR house and an attacker in one's home is fair game.
We are the British in this case and we are in THEIR home.
So, like Washington they attack US and try to get US off of THEIR Afghan or Iraqi soil.
We are the foreigners in this case.
What if King George had a seal team that consistently assainated every leader of our nation?
NOT to compare our founders with the anti democracy movements we oppose, but each new leader we kill gives way to an equally militant or more so replacement pledged to drive us out and seek revenge.
When does it end?
You can't kill hatred or lust for vengeance.
Violence makes it worse. Blood lust has to expiration date.
Mao eventually changed and met Nixon (!)
Do you think Mao's replacement or anyone in China would have been inclined to at last form a relationship with us if we had assassinated him? No, they would hate us forever.
This tactic, this reliance on Seal Team 6 as policy, is a loser tactic in a flawed strategy.
But at least it satisfies OUR blood lust over 9/11.
Blood lust is the common bond here.
Oh, and you may have noticed Washington beat the people on HIS soil.
The person whose home it is always wins…cause they ain't goin' away.
10
...and bless you, Chris. The author should have given those sensitive souls who would judge them murderers a "trigger warning" that we have soldiers who kill bad guys. I was struck dumb by the kidnapped individual who questioned why the SEALs killed his captors. What's going on there if not the famous Stolkholm Syndrome. I'm glad these outstanding individuals are out there as I write this, dealing death to our enemies and making liberals cringe.
1
I am so proud and honored to have Seal Team Six take care of us. And I so pleased with your tribute to them and your insight to the unfortunate necessity of war. I found your comment very helpful and so glad that you posted it. Thank you for all you've done to make and keep this world a better place. The sacrifice of mind and body in war are immeasurable.
1
Former Sen. Bob Kerry tells us "But relying on them so much, he added, is inevitable whenever American leaders are faced with “one of those situations where the choice you have is between a horrible choice and a bad choice, one of those cases where you have no option.”
Another reason we rely on them is because less than two thirds of one percent of the U.S. population is serving in the active, reserve, and national guard components of the U.S. Armed Forces.
Another reason we rely on them is because less than two thirds of one percent of the U.S. population is serving in the active, reserve, and national guard components of the U.S. Armed Forces.
23
Exactly. We need universal uniformed national service as a prerequisite for the franchise. It wouldn't have to be in the military after basic training, but it would be a binding experience for Americans, who are increasingly becoming fragmented and dystopia-addicted.
Once you start killing people because you "suspect" them of doing something bad - as both Seal Team Six, and our drone "operators" do, you are holding hands with Joseph Stalin.
One cannot help but wonder, if, at some point, Seal Team Six will start paying surprise visits to people here in the United States - or maybe they do already.
Pure evil is a map that has no boundaries.
One cannot help but wonder, if, at some point, Seal Team Six will start paying surprise visits to people here in the United States - or maybe they do already.
Pure evil is a map that has no boundaries.
50
Ex-Special Forces. I am dismayed at this story. The tradecraft and other tactics should not have been disclosed. Secret organizations and their capabilities should remain so. It is one of their primary weapons and defenses.
56
Agreed. The operative word is "Secret" and it should stay that way.
9
As I read, I kept wondering, "Why publicize this?" The answer I came up with was that it is The Times.
2
As a Navy Vet, I'm not the judge as to what "really" needs to be secret, but I'm very sure that "Secret organizations" all end badly. Because man's dominate gene is the folly gene. We have an open government not a secret one. Drop the paranoia, your a SEAL. It just increases the challenge, like pain you need to learn to like it, the greater challenge.
1
I assume that the rest of the U.S. media is going to engage in a vicious backlash against this article--as they did with Seymour Hersh's article picking apart the official narrative about the bin Laden raid--since this NY Times article also depends almost entirely on unamed sources.
What's most striking, if one reads this article as a narrative, is how it comes across like the heroic antidote to Hersh's aticle, which suggested Seal Team 6 raids may not be the precision heroic lethal actions that the media generally makes them out to be. This article is sort of Zero Dark Thirty, but for an elite NY Times readership.
Indeed, given that the sources forthe article seem to be entirely people sympathetic to (or part of) the Seal operation, should we assume it is any more credible than the Zero Dark Thirty screenplay based on what the CIA wanted the filmmakers to know?
Anyway, I'm surprised in the comments how much readers seem to just eat this up, believing everything they are told about how heroic and surgically effective these soldiers are, and, as if on their own, coming to the conclusion that what these soldiers do must be necessary (otherwise how could we rationalize the brutality to ourselves?).
To me it's shocking how banal and mundane American militarism has become. Even people claiming to be "against war" feel compelled to support the operations these soldiers do. If that's what the anti-war movement in the U.S. looks like today, then I guess there really isn't one.
What's most striking, if one reads this article as a narrative, is how it comes across like the heroic antidote to Hersh's aticle, which suggested Seal Team 6 raids may not be the precision heroic lethal actions that the media generally makes them out to be. This article is sort of Zero Dark Thirty, but for an elite NY Times readership.
Indeed, given that the sources forthe article seem to be entirely people sympathetic to (or part of) the Seal operation, should we assume it is any more credible than the Zero Dark Thirty screenplay based on what the CIA wanted the filmmakers to know?
Anyway, I'm surprised in the comments how much readers seem to just eat this up, believing everything they are told about how heroic and surgically effective these soldiers are, and, as if on their own, coming to the conclusion that what these soldiers do must be necessary (otherwise how could we rationalize the brutality to ourselves?).
To me it's shocking how banal and mundane American militarism has become. Even people claiming to be "against war" feel compelled to support the operations these soldiers do. If that's what the anti-war movement in the U.S. looks like today, then I guess there really isn't one.
44
As a former naval officer, I can tell you that surgical is a relative term. Many of the operations shown here could have been accomplished with a 2000 pound precision munition dropped from an F/A-18. Those can also be considered surgical strikes even though the collateral damage would far exceed that conducted by a SEAL team. Take, for example, the Bin Laden raid. Bin Laden could have been killed with a JDAM, a TLAM or a Hellfire missile fired from a drone. The operation could have been accomplished at virtually no risk to US forces, but it's likely that neighboring homes would have been destroyed and civilian casualties would have resulted as a consequence. Furthermore, we likely wouldn't have DNA confirmation of UBL's death, nor would we have seized a treasure trove of AQ documents. The use of special operators made all of that possible.
This article was hardly a rah-rah piece. It talked about failures and excesses, neither of which are surprising given the thousands of missions conducted since 9/11, but is it militarism to honor those who risk their lives to protect us?
As far as the American anti-war movement goes, it hasn't existed since Bush left office---despite an increase in operations and subsequent casualties in Afghanistan, countless drone strikes in Pakistan, and an undeclared war in Libya to name just a few example. That tells me that the anti-war movement was really more of an anti-Bush movement---just as political as the undeserved Nobel Peace Prize.
This article was hardly a rah-rah piece. It talked about failures and excesses, neither of which are surprising given the thousands of missions conducted since 9/11, but is it militarism to honor those who risk their lives to protect us?
As far as the American anti-war movement goes, it hasn't existed since Bush left office---despite an increase in operations and subsequent casualties in Afghanistan, countless drone strikes in Pakistan, and an undeclared war in Libya to name just a few example. That tells me that the anti-war movement was really more of an anti-Bush movement---just as political as the undeserved Nobel Peace Prize.
1
Seal team 6 is fenced off from the public? Last I looked, every military installation is fenced off.....
15
Year, their existence is kept severely guarded secret, that's why we can read such a short article about their activity.
What they are is a group of assassins.
37
Fortunately for us they are on our side, smiting the assassins who want to achieve power by blaming America for everything, including practicing the wrong religion and daring to represent democracy.
I am very old, and I must say that I cannot recall just when we became a country of secrecy and assassins - but that is what we now are. With government approval and direction. How sad. How shameful.........
2
Lets Just remember Jacobo Árbenz and the 1954 coup d'état in Guatemala that was a covert operation carried out by the CIA and lets stop blaming America for everything. I was just being sarcastic.
I find this all both extremely interesting and very disturbing. It is disturbing because NOBODY should share any of this with the general public. It seems that news outlets are too stupid to realize that our enemies among the Islamic Radical Terrorists can read, and can glean valuable information from things like this. Americans who love their country should SHUT UP when asked to comment on raids, tactics, weapons or anything else that has to do with the work of covert operators. And the New York Times should decided, finally, not to hinder or irreparably damage the American war effort as they have so many times in the past.
32
There isn't anything in this article that is not known or suspected by anyone who can read...
6
When they came for the gypsies ...
When they came for the disabled ...
When they came for the "Enemies of the People ...
When they came for me I was surprised because I was (an) innocent!
When they came for the disabled ...
When they came for the "Enemies of the People ...
When they came for me I was surprised because I was (an) innocent!
10
Jay you are cognizant that the primary job of a newspaper is to keep the general public informed.
And I thank them for that.
That said ... It's a pity that publications are now in the hands of so few proprietors and readers should to not be hoodwinked by any political agenda's they may wish to promote.
If were not for the brave ethical journalists we would quickly find ourselves in dictatorships. For the enemy in most cases comes from within.
On the topic of the article, I am happy that these organizations exist (wish they did not have to) and dispose of really despicable people. But, I am pleased that they are aware that they have to live up to the scrutiny of society in general, who want to feel safe and hope that the protectors behave as humanly as possible while carrying out their duties.
Yeah I know the above may seem contradictory. We live in an imperfect unequal world...
And I thank them for that.
That said ... It's a pity that publications are now in the hands of so few proprietors and readers should to not be hoodwinked by any political agenda's they may wish to promote.
If were not for the brave ethical journalists we would quickly find ourselves in dictatorships. For the enemy in most cases comes from within.
On the topic of the article, I am happy that these organizations exist (wish they did not have to) and dispose of really despicable people. But, I am pleased that they are aware that they have to live up to the scrutiny of society in general, who want to feel safe and hope that the protectors behave as humanly as possible while carrying out their duties.
Yeah I know the above may seem contradictory. We live in an imperfect unequal world...
4
After reading Seymour H, is book about Operation Neptune Spear, it appears that Pakistani authorities gave prior approval for this operation. Only on condition that Osama cannot be taken alive and hence it was a "Kill Mission". Probably Pakistanis did that just to save their face. How can it be possible for Osama to stay in that Abbotabad compound for that many years without prior knowledge of ISI, Pak Intelligence Agency.
7
What is necessary is for Americans to elect politicians who will both assume the responsibility for what Seal Team 6 and other such units do and to actively resist the temptation toward function creep.
Are such groups necessary ? Yes.
Can such groups be trained, used, and held accountable in an appropriate manner? That is up to the American people through their elected representatives.
It is also true that, as we more and more farm out our fighting to mercenaries and a non-draft military, we allow the American people to pretend innocence of and non-accountability for those actions pursued in their name. If we are going to fight wars, all should have skin in the game.
Are such groups necessary ? Yes.
Can such groups be trained, used, and held accountable in an appropriate manner? That is up to the American people through their elected representatives.
It is also true that, as we more and more farm out our fighting to mercenaries and a non-draft military, we allow the American people to pretend innocence of and non-accountability for those actions pursued in their name. If we are going to fight wars, all should have skin in the game.
17
You give a lot of examples of the following, where you give away tactics and methods:
"...The team transformed the large, brightly painted “jingle” trucks popular in the region into mobile spying stations, hiding sophisticated eavesdropping equipment in the back of the trucks and using Pashtuns to drive them over the border."
The information on male/female black squadron pairs, "profile softening" and the like. This makes me sick, the way you give away our national secrets with such reckless abandon. This is not some Shopping Penny Saver, this is The New York Times and what you write here will no doubt cheer up our enemies... maybe with your attitudes towards our national security you would do well to join Snowden in Russia?
"...The team transformed the large, brightly painted “jingle” trucks popular in the region into mobile spying stations, hiding sophisticated eavesdropping equipment in the back of the trucks and using Pashtuns to drive them over the border."
The information on male/female black squadron pairs, "profile softening" and the like. This makes me sick, the way you give away our national secrets with such reckless abandon. This is not some Shopping Penny Saver, this is The New York Times and what you write here will no doubt cheer up our enemies... maybe with your attitudes towards our national security you would do well to join Snowden in Russia?
16
The only people who would not be aware of these "normal" tactics would be collateral damage.
6
They Just have to question EVERYTHING we as a people do to fight Terror. Hey, unfortunately, there is collateral damage. But I get the idea that Progressive Liberal Socialist would just as soon we give up all our weapons, beg for forgiveness to the World for existing. But the minute Left Wingers start getting killed for saying things contra to what some radical group believes, THEN they start screaming about Gov't protection. When you no longer have freedoms of the Bill of Rights, because some Sharia law person took them from you, made your wife wear a burka. it is then TOO LATE to protest in the streets. For, you will be dead, and possibly your whole family dead or imprisoned. That is how they operate.
5
I didn't notice the name Seymour Hersh in this long story. Why do its authors ignore Hersh's essay "The Killing of Osama bin Laden" in the London Review of Books? Here's the link:
http://www.lrb.co.uk/v37/n10/seymour-m-hersh/the-killing-of-osama-bin-laden
http://www.lrb.co.uk/v37/n10/seymour-m-hersh/the-killing-of-osama-bin-laden
6
Thank God for Seal Team 6, and their fellow Special Forces Operators. For those who object to their tactics, I say, assemble a team of lawyers and neighborhood organizers, and send them in instead. Let's see what the results are then.
15
SEAL Team 6 deserve our admiration and gratitude. They certainly have mine.
19
And mine
All the trillions spent in Afghanistan and Iraq.
All the blood - ours and mostly their's
All the militarism and diversion of the nation's resources from things that serve our population and our economy.
(Ever wonder why the potholes never get fixed?)
All that…and…
And our enemies will still be in their home on Afghan soil long after all of us are dead. It's their land.
And Iraq is a complete mess.
And militant Islam spreads all over the middle east with us as their motivation.
Here's a fact every NY apartment dweller knows -
You can kill some cockroaches and you can kill a lot of them.
But they live in your place, that's their home.
You will lose.
The difference is cockroaches don't pass on searing, generational hatred and desire for revenge for those who invade and kill them.
People do.
We have to think differently and creatively in this world about how we deal with big issues and relations with other peoples or our grandchildren will be in this same boat 100 years on.
Seal Team 6?
Laughable and ultimately impotent.
All the blood - ours and mostly their's
All the militarism and diversion of the nation's resources from things that serve our population and our economy.
(Ever wonder why the potholes never get fixed?)
All that…and…
And our enemies will still be in their home on Afghan soil long after all of us are dead. It's their land.
And Iraq is a complete mess.
And militant Islam spreads all over the middle east with us as their motivation.
Here's a fact every NY apartment dweller knows -
You can kill some cockroaches and you can kill a lot of them.
But they live in your place, that's their home.
You will lose.
The difference is cockroaches don't pass on searing, generational hatred and desire for revenge for those who invade and kill them.
People do.
We have to think differently and creatively in this world about how we deal with big issues and relations with other peoples or our grandchildren will be in this same boat 100 years on.
Seal Team 6?
Laughable and ultimately impotent.
19
You would find out how laughable and impotent they are if it was you they were after !
1
Neither laughable nor impotent, but potentially very dangerous to our democracy, should control fall into the hands of a Congress elected by ALEC.
1
I am totally astonished by so many comments lauding state sanctioned assassinations, rationalizing them on the premise that they keep Americans "safe." What? Prove it, please. And to those who condone these activities, please contemplate how much you would like it if a group of assassins climbed through your window and killed you and your family in the depths of your dreams.
18
It could be argued that this "through your window and killed you and your family" did happen on 9/11 and before there is a howl of outrage my daughter, when a teacher in the Middle East was asked on one occasion "Miss, were the men who drove the airplanes brave?"
3
Alex, ISIS and other Islamic terrorists want to kill all nonbelievers. No, I wouldn't like it if they came through my window and killed my family and me. Kill them before they kill you. That's just the way it is.
"But SEAL Team 6 is more isolated from the rest of the Navy, with many of its men entering the brutal SEAL training pipeline from outside the military."
I think the writers of this story may have interviewed some SEAL impostor(s). All SEALs first enlisted in the Navy just like everyone else and went through basic training, etc. None come from outside the Navy and none go into SEAL training immediately.
I think the writers of this story may have interviewed some SEAL impostor(s). All SEALs first enlisted in the Navy just like everyone else and went through basic training, etc. None come from outside the Navy and none go into SEAL training immediately.
4
I sincerely hope you are correct. The missions these men conduct are often necessary, but if they are not vetted by a democratically-elected government, and are allowed to become autonomous death squads, they will eventually turn on dissidents in this country, and that will be the sorry end of our experiment in democracy.
2
This is another example of how "American exceptionalism" has warped American minds. Essentially, what you've got here is a government sponsored death squad. At least in the old days, when the US trained death squads, it tried to keep a bit of distance.
11
Seal Team Six may be a lot of things. But, secret is not one of them. In fact they are probably the most publicized unit in the history of warfare. It appears that they don't do anything without a press release. And, the higher ups in the administration can't stop tripping over each other looking to take credit for their exploits. In contrast when, Tony Blair was asked if the SAS had anything to do with an operation his response was classic British and wholly appropriate. "We don't talk about the SAS."
6
President Obama deemed as cowardly has officially continued and even increased use of Seal Team 6, it just has to be surprise and disappointment to his critics.
In fact, it is without rebuttal, more enemies of USA have been removed from battle than combined under Clinton, Bush II and Reagan.
In fact, it is without rebuttal, more enemies of USA have been removed from battle than combined under Clinton, Bush II and Reagan.
2
If Dave from Albuquerque knew his military history better, he wouldn't
have asked how the Rangers could have scaled Omaha beach if "The
entire Ranger force was essentially destroyed in that one operation (in Cisterna, Italy.)"
First of all, Rangers didn't "scale Omaha Beach;" but they DID scale
the 100 ft high cliffs of the Pointe du Hoc, which is NOT on Omaha
Beach but rather is the highest point BETWEEN Utah Beach to the
west and Omaha Beach to the east.
Second, the 1st, 3rd, and 4th U.S. Ranger Battalions were major
elements of the 6615th Ranger Force, a temporary regiment
specially formed for deployment in the Battle of Anzio. After Anzio
was occupied, a tragic intelligence failure led American commanders
to suspect a gap in the German lines -- there wasn't one -- and in
the ensuing Battle of Cisterna, of the 767 men of the 1st and 3rd
Ranger Battalions, only 6 escaped capture or death. Thus the 1st
and 3rd Ranger Battalions ceased to exist as fighting units.
But contrary to what Dave apparently thinks, however, the "entire
Ranger force" was not destroyed at Cisterna. The U.S. Army had
more than 3 Ranger Battalions. Thus men of the 2nd and 5th
Ranger Battalions were the ones who heroically scaled the Pointe
du Hoc on D-Day in the invasion of Normandy.
have asked how the Rangers could have scaled Omaha beach if "The
entire Ranger force was essentially destroyed in that one operation (in Cisterna, Italy.)"
First of all, Rangers didn't "scale Omaha Beach;" but they DID scale
the 100 ft high cliffs of the Pointe du Hoc, which is NOT on Omaha
Beach but rather is the highest point BETWEEN Utah Beach to the
west and Omaha Beach to the east.
Second, the 1st, 3rd, and 4th U.S. Ranger Battalions were major
elements of the 6615th Ranger Force, a temporary regiment
specially formed for deployment in the Battle of Anzio. After Anzio
was occupied, a tragic intelligence failure led American commanders
to suspect a gap in the German lines -- there wasn't one -- and in
the ensuing Battle of Cisterna, of the 767 men of the 1st and 3rd
Ranger Battalions, only 6 escaped capture or death. Thus the 1st
and 3rd Ranger Battalions ceased to exist as fighting units.
But contrary to what Dave apparently thinks, however, the "entire
Ranger force" was not destroyed at Cisterna. The U.S. Army had
more than 3 Ranger Battalions. Thus men of the 2nd and 5th
Ranger Battalions were the ones who heroically scaled the Pointe
du Hoc on D-Day in the invasion of Normandy.
3
One major concern: Leaders of insurgencies and rebellions, no matter how repulsive, may with time mature, develop a sense of responsibility, a perspective on the passage of time, and become amenable to accomodation and compromise. Examples: Mao Tse Tung, who ended up hosting Richard Nixon; Menachem Begin, who, as leader of the Irgun, had a price on his head for the terrorist act of blowing up the King David Hotel, but eventually stood on the tarmac in Tel Aviv to welcome Anwar Sadat to Israel and won the Nobel Peace Prize. Keep killing the leaders and they are replaced by people whose militancy is raw and deadly. By killing the families of the leaders as well and innocents along with them, by means of a raid from Seal Team 6 or a drone strike, we are committing acts of terrorism that plant the seeds for those seeking vengeance, and the vicious cycle continues, dehumanizing all involved. Force may be necessary but it is not a substitute for incessant efforts, beyond frustration and exhaustion, to find solutions that reduce violence.
5
Based on recent news articles about gains by the Taliban, and the need of the Afghan government to resort to militias and warlords; I would say the results of these "covert" ops are quite dismal.
7
How could you be anything but proud of this class of outstanding and elite men. The best of the best who place themselves voluntarily in between evil and the American people. These gentlemen are primarily enlisted men who hold no rank higher than petty officer. If you want to hold someone responsible then look no further than those who enjoy the benefits provided by these men and women and who have not served and would not serve if called to serve. No one who has not been directly involved in combat should ever be allowed to offer an opinion on the behavior of those in combat. There is no shortage of honorable men and women who have served in combat zones who can provide appropriate and informed judgements on behavior in a combat zone. The audacity of Dr. Joseph to question the behavior of the men who risked their lives to save his life over the death of one of his kidnappers! No wonder his judgement was so poor as to place himself in the middle of war zone where the enemy combatants place no value on the the lives of anyone including the he their own.
7
I thought Joseph Heller's Catch-22 was more fiction than reality but this article, if true, confirms that reality is stranger than fiction, to put it mildly.
2
True. But I feel that it is also a late-blooming 1984. Orwell evidently understood power and its various uses, and its ability to morph into secrecy and mind control. Not to mention wrapping power in a flag......
2
It's very seductive to have a group like this, but .....quis custodiet ipsos custodes? Yes, who WILL special operate the special operators themselves?
That is the question....
J.K Galbraith's Law of Countervailing Powers says that either the Russians, the Chinese, al-Queda, ISIL or a combination of those plus homegrown monied interests here in the USA will try to nuke that Virginia training center. Sooner or later, people will become desperate, and will want to fly planes into buildings again. Or nuked-up drones into Virginia barracks.
ST6 is a state within a state, much like the CIA was in the 60s and 70s. Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely. How about if an ambitious commander decides that certain politicians are a danger to them, and start killing US Senators? Their first loyalty is to their brother commandos, not to the USA. They can extort Senators with "gimme my funding, or else..."
That is the question....
J.K Galbraith's Law of Countervailing Powers says that either the Russians, the Chinese, al-Queda, ISIL or a combination of those plus homegrown monied interests here in the USA will try to nuke that Virginia training center. Sooner or later, people will become desperate, and will want to fly planes into buildings again. Or nuked-up drones into Virginia barracks.
ST6 is a state within a state, much like the CIA was in the 60s and 70s. Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely. How about if an ambitious commander decides that certain politicians are a danger to them, and start killing US Senators? Their first loyalty is to their brother commandos, not to the USA. They can extort Senators with "gimme my funding, or else..."
5
Interesting. Your comment immediately reminded me of an old movie, "Seven Days in May." Worth digging up and watching.
1
We live, or, at least, I live, in the real world. There are people 'out there' who want to bring me into 'submission to Allah' and are not particular what method they use including chopping off my head. The US is a vibrant democracy with a strong survival instinct when faced with such a threat. If is uses secret methods to 'liberate' the world from 'these people', I can be happy about it.
IF, there is good oversight. Whoever the 'Oversight People' are, they cannot be radicals and must have a good developed sense of what is right and what is wrong.
I completely recognise that there are some things that a democratically elected government does need to be kept secret for tens if not hundreds of years. Snowden, for instance, is a traitor to the United States of America and a traitor to democracy. And I hope that he is eventually apprehended and brought to trial with all his accomplices including those who may try ti hide behind some exceptions that give special protections to media types.
IF, there is good oversight. Whoever the 'Oversight People' are, they cannot be radicals and must have a good developed sense of what is right and what is wrong.
I completely recognise that there are some things that a democratically elected government does need to be kept secret for tens if not hundreds of years. Snowden, for instance, is a traitor to the United States of America and a traitor to democracy. And I hope that he is eventually apprehended and brought to trial with all his accomplices including those who may try ti hide behind some exceptions that give special protections to media types.
6
Knowing the track record of our past "oversight" endeavors, do you honestly believe such oversight is being done in THIS matter? And just who is doing the oversight, and how did they get into that position to "oversee"? Through money? Political friends? Honesty? If our Congress is involved in any way, I will be immediately suspicious. Not, of course, about those brave ones involved in carrying out these dangerous actions - they are true dedicated heroes in my book. The scary part is wondering, as always, "Who's in Charge"?
Anonymous. Selfless. Patriotic. Gloriously American. Tread lightly NYT. This is one hand you cannot bite, lest you make SEALS of us all.
8
Although fascinating and riveting to read, I personally could have continued on in life without needing to know these details. Every major nation needs forces of this type and while they do need oversight, I do not think they need publicity.
7
I am confident God is proud of our killers. Thank god!
5
All I can say is that we need more of them. God bless and preserve them.
3
Here we are in 2015 and these NY Times journalists cite the Jessica Lynch "rescue" as a notable SEAL mission.
"Interviews conducted by the Toronto Star and BBC at the hospital in Nasiriya where Lynch was being treated have revealed the following facts about the entire affair:
All Iraqi troops and fidayeen had withdrawn from the area two days before the 'daring' rescue.
The hospital staff had driven Lynch to a US checkpost in an ambulance a day earlier in an attempt to hand her over but were fired upon.
US soldiers involved in the rescue fired blanks to create the impression that they had to fight their way in.
"It was like a Hollywood film", Dr Ammar Uday told the BBC, "They cried 'go, go, go', with guns and blanks without bullets and the sound of explosions. They made a show..."
And evidently the NY Times feels the show must go on.
"Interviews conducted by the Toronto Star and BBC at the hospital in Nasiriya where Lynch was being treated have revealed the following facts about the entire affair:
All Iraqi troops and fidayeen had withdrawn from the area two days before the 'daring' rescue.
The hospital staff had driven Lynch to a US checkpost in an ambulance a day earlier in an attempt to hand her over but were fired upon.
US soldiers involved in the rescue fired blanks to create the impression that they had to fight their way in.
"It was like a Hollywood film", Dr Ammar Uday told the BBC, "They cried 'go, go, go', with guns and blanks without bullets and the sound of explosions. They made a show..."
And evidently the NY Times feels the show must go on.
9
I for one, sleep better at night knowing men like this are standing by to protect my family.
We owe these men our gratitude and thanks.
I don't understand why NYT would publish an article like this on D-Day. Very disrespectful in my opinion.
We owe these men our gratitude and thanks.
I don't understand why NYT would publish an article like this on D-Day. Very disrespectful in my opinion.
33
WooPig, you're entitled to your opinion, of course. But as the son of
one of the first Americans to land in France in World War I, a cousin of
four who fought in the European and Pacific Theaters in World War II,
and the father of a field-grade officer currently serving in the U.S.
military in one of the most dangerous assignments overseas, I beg to
differ with you.
Those who serve honorably and follow the code of conduct all service
men and women must obey certainly DO deserve our gratitude and
thanks. But those who go beyond the pale and act as some of our
most depraved enemies do may deserve some empathy but certainly
not our gratitude and thanks.
And of hundreds of veterans I've known and met -- from World War I
to Iraq and Afghanistan -- I've yet to met even one who would agree
with your opinion.
one of the first Americans to land in France in World War I, a cousin of
four who fought in the European and Pacific Theaters in World War II,
and the father of a field-grade officer currently serving in the U.S.
military in one of the most dangerous assignments overseas, I beg to
differ with you.
Those who serve honorably and follow the code of conduct all service
men and women must obey certainly DO deserve our gratitude and
thanks. But those who go beyond the pale and act as some of our
most depraved enemies do may deserve some empathy but certainly
not our gratitude and thanks.
And of hundreds of veterans I've known and met -- from World War I
to Iraq and Afghanistan -- I've yet to met even one who would agree
with your opinion.
3
This isn't the first time ! They seem to share that typical international left attitude toward the American military . Been that way since the Vietnam War days .
Despite all the differing opinions and speculation about the SEAL teams it is best that Joe Public doesn't know anything in detail, everyone military and civilian alike are safer that way, they are actually men with good moral beliefs, men with families just as important to them as yours are to you, they are not mercenaries and are not paid large sums of money yet at any given time they jump, dive, fly and or swim into harms way and often enough with the odds of not making it home stacked against them, why.? For you me, them and us as a nation so we can sleep obliviously in our beds and not have to worry about having air raid sirens go off or your throat cut by an enemy foreign or domestic. A Job that most cant imagine much less be capable of. my self included. they are not free lance and are governed by rules of engagement even when facing fears that could be put away with a squeeze of the trigger. When there is a threat to Americans, not just government but us all of us or just a few, they without a doubt prosecute that threat with extreme prejudice. and last but not least, they most often are on missions where to be caught or killed they will be denied by the powers that sent them. They are gentlemen, savages and yes well trained killers, they keep a balance just like the top of the food chain in any species. A thankless, lonely stressful and deadly job, but 100% necessary.
27
Amen.
1
Color me "dubious". Having lived through the Keystone Kops, "Who's On First", years of the Bush/Cheney administration, I have come to be a non-believer in the ability of our Government to get things "right" and tell us what they consider truth.
2
It is amazing the New York Times as well as other about Seal Team 6
Yet during nobody knew or wrote about the A bomb until it was dropped
President Truman did not know about it until he was President
Please tell us about Whale Team 11 I bet you afraid even to Mention this super group
Yet during nobody knew or wrote about the A bomb until it was dropped
President Truman did not know about it until he was President
Please tell us about Whale Team 11 I bet you afraid even to Mention this super group
5
War is evil. To think that the killings, the missions (overt or covert) play by clean, neat rules of engagement is naive. These highly trained soldiers are trained to do their craft probably better than anyone in performing the acts and duties of war. Yes, to think of innocent civilians dying is an abhorrent thought. Just think of the greater than 25 million civilians that died during World War II. Not a lot of discussion has been made of that engagement?!
The NYtimes is doing its clearly liberal duty is providing an expose of the SEALS. That is the right of free speech in America. However, i am very proud and happy we have forces like the SEALS protecting us. One only has to see how ISIL operates in Syria and Irag to figure out that there will be no clean rules in fighting a war on terrorism
The NYtimes is doing its clearly liberal duty is providing an expose of the SEALS. That is the right of free speech in America. However, i am very proud and happy we have forces like the SEALS protecting us. One only has to see how ISIL operates in Syria and Irag to figure out that there will be no clean rules in fighting a war on terrorism
16
REWindsor, you make some thoughtful and provocative points.
But rather than doing "...its clearly liberal duty," I would say the NYtimes
is doing its CIVIC duty.
But rather than doing "...its clearly liberal duty," I would say the NYtimes
is doing its CIVIC duty.
OBL and ISIL are proof there have been and still are truly evil people who mean to cause us unspeakable harm if they are able. I believe that we should use whatever means necessary to neutralize these threats against our citizens. I am also grateful to those who put themselves on the line so we can sleep at night at home. But that should not mean there should not be any oversight at all. We are a mature country, I do not see why there cannot not be measured oversight taking into account how dangerous and how difficult it is to make the right calls in the heat of battle whose activities are classified.
7
obl worked for uS and many say isis was created by US and saudi arabia to counter shia and destroy iraq and sera into smaller countries one of the reasons being pipeline...we don't know much as we think we do
Ever since the Korean war, the battlefield has been changing from one of tanks and trenches, to one of special ops and drones. Even during Vietnam, search and destroy missions did better than large scale assaults...
China and a resurgent Russia loom large, but I think we can divert more money towards technology and less towards having the largest, most expensive military on earth
China and a resurgent Russia loom large, but I think we can divert more money towards technology and less towards having the largest, most expensive military on earth
1
I disagree. I believe that every American should go through basic training and the perform some sort of national service. An elite secret military unit is a danger to our democracy. Imagine how it could be used if ALEC acquires control over Congress.
While the NYT has displayed its amazing prowess for news gathering, detail and scope-as per usual; as a journalist, myself, I wonder if A) there is a false flattery of the ST6 going on here, while at the same time bashing the very deeds they do? B) Is the extreme detail and "on background" reporting in the best interest of our national security and the lives of these gentlemen and their families?
"On background" to me sounds like, "Well, off the record," which I don't report in my stories. With the Islamic State looking us square in the eye and now right in our own backyard-must we spill the utter details of our most secret fighting force. It's a slippery slope indeed. It's our job to report and break information but at what expense will this potentially be for our own safety?
I am intimately familiar with this community and it disturbed me the amount of detail here. I have reported on SEALs myself-but with a degree of distance. They are by and large amazing men. Human and often broken by the brunt of the war they have taken on but not blood thirsty devils, I can assure you, they are brave beyond brave.
Not sure I would have run with all of the detail in this one NYT.
"On background" to me sounds like, "Well, off the record," which I don't report in my stories. With the Islamic State looking us square in the eye and now right in our own backyard-must we spill the utter details of our most secret fighting force. It's a slippery slope indeed. It's our job to report and break information but at what expense will this potentially be for our own safety?
I am intimately familiar with this community and it disturbed me the amount of detail here. I have reported on SEALs myself-but with a degree of distance. They are by and large amazing men. Human and often broken by the brunt of the war they have taken on but not blood thirsty devils, I can assure you, they are brave beyond brave.
Not sure I would have run with all of the detail in this one NYT.
20
Gathering this much information and detail may be a reporting high-water mark of some kind, to be celebrated by you folks in the news business. But I do NOT appreciate seeing it all here spelled out so beautifully for all the world to see. Seems like there was still plenty of story left if you just kept to exploits and reactions, but I'm uncomfortable with how much you have chosen to reveal beyond that.
I don't need to know what they do, just that they exist: an elite force to be used discretely against select targets.
13
CMK, yours is a most common and very understandable sentiment.
What you don't know won't hurt you -- unless and until somehow it
does!
What you don't know won't hurt you -- unless and until somehow it
does!
1
The frightening part is "WHO" gets to select the targets, not the ability and dedication of those people carrying out the missions.
1
Remember: today, June 6, is D-Day.
15
How is it in the public interest to publish an aerial view of SEAL headquarters? I know our enemies are grateful.
34
You might wish to ponder how the view became available for it to be published.
2
...because it is not the really one. This is a view of the tango outposts, I recognise it from call of duty missions.
3
1) Lot's of people have access to Google Maps, including terrorists.
2) It's highly unlikely that the United States will experience a large scale terrorist attack within its borders.
3) It's a heavily guarded compound. It's very hard to sneak a bomb in. And small arms fire is highly unlikely, as mentioned in #2
4) Everyone knows the address of the place. Anyone can sign up to be a Navy SEAL. The headquarters locations aren't hard to figure out, and again, remote controlled RC copters and planes, and Google Maps is available. This place is fine. Always has been. Totally safe. Nothing to ever worry about.
2) It's highly unlikely that the United States will experience a large scale terrorist attack within its borders.
3) It's a heavily guarded compound. It's very hard to sneak a bomb in. And small arms fire is highly unlikely, as mentioned in #2
4) Everyone knows the address of the place. Anyone can sign up to be a Navy SEAL. The headquarters locations aren't hard to figure out, and again, remote controlled RC copters and planes, and Google Maps is available. This place is fine. Always has been. Totally safe. Nothing to ever worry about.
You have to grant the US one thing: we are "exceptional." At killing people.
18
I agree with the sentiment behind your comment. Unfortunately there are times when you need to kill other people who want to kill you. There is certainly plenty of room to question whether the two are kept in proper balance.
Like nearly everything else, the "correct" approach is usually trying to intelligently maintain a position in the gray zone, and the "wrong" choice is almost always at either extreme.
Like nearly everything else, the "correct" approach is usually trying to intelligently maintain a position in the gray zone, and the "wrong" choice is almost always at either extreme.
5
Memo to JeffP: I think you have it wrong. ISIS is great at killing people and we send Seal Team Six and Delta Force to kill selected targets of ISIS. I don't like to see videos on the internet of innocent Americans getting their heads chopped off by ISIS. Seal Team Six and Delta Force can kill all of the ISIS members and do the Middle East and world a huge service!
Brave, fearless, patriotic--yes. Strong and self-disciplined-yes. Lawless or excessively violent--that is the important question.
JAGs teach the "Law of War" to service members. This law has important foundations, including restraint to avoid innocent civilian casualties--to help restore peace. And it helps us keep our moral authority.
Power is always abused. We see that in police departments in the US, and we see it throughout history. It's human nature.
Non-accountability is an obvious problem. As described by this article, the Seals seem to govern themselves, with little outside supervision. Why is this the case? In a democratic society, the public should (at least eventually) be informed of Seal successes, and Seal failures. Delta Force too. Why hide this (except to protect the guilty or the negligent)?
To the extent the operations are CIA-affiliated and clandestine, we should be extraordinarily reticent to engage in illegality, lest we be viewed as lawless hypocrites. We should aspire to be the model for democracy under the rule of law, especially in places overseas where such models are in short supply (and the principal model violence).
JAGs teach the "Law of War" to service members. This law has important foundations, including restraint to avoid innocent civilian casualties--to help restore peace. And it helps us keep our moral authority.
Power is always abused. We see that in police departments in the US, and we see it throughout history. It's human nature.
Non-accountability is an obvious problem. As described by this article, the Seals seem to govern themselves, with little outside supervision. Why is this the case? In a democratic society, the public should (at least eventually) be informed of Seal successes, and Seal failures. Delta Force too. Why hide this (except to protect the guilty or the negligent)?
To the extent the operations are CIA-affiliated and clandestine, we should be extraordinarily reticent to engage in illegality, lest we be viewed as lawless hypocrites. We should aspire to be the model for democracy under the rule of law, especially in places overseas where such models are in short supply (and the principal model violence).
14
To the world, America has become Judge Dredd, shouting: "The law? I AM the law!"
3
Bravo, Mr. Diederich! Of the more than 200 posts I've read so far on this
thread, yours is one of the most powerful and cogently expressed of them.
thread, yours is one of the most powerful and cogently expressed of them.
You have to be kidding me....Expose Seal Team Six accomplishments and trash them at the same time as under the false pretense of journalism at it's trashiest.
Guess providing cannon fonder and trade secrets is called Journalism these days, use to be called Treason.
Shocked names and addresses and family members were not listed even or was that un obtainable inof and that's the only reason it's not here?
Guess providing cannon fonder and trade secrets is called Journalism these days, use to be called Treason.
Shocked names and addresses and family members were not listed even or was that un obtainable inof and that's the only reason it's not here?
28
As a democracy, we are all ultimately responsible for what these people do in our name. It is difficult to be responsible for anything without the knowledge to reach decisions.
Yours truly,
A REAL AMERICAN
Yours truly,
A REAL AMERICAN
22
Incredible article. Love the depth and the research performed on topics not easily "googled" or discussed. Yes, I find the instances of killing of innocents and children intolerable, but we were not there in the heat of battle and in the main I am thankful the dedication, service, and sacrifices made by these men and women. Thank you.
7
The Assassination of Osama Bin Laden brought the focus of the World on the "SEALS 6 " unit.Prior to this no one outside the American military establishment of the army knew about a elite World army unit called the "SEALS".Recently the Seymour.Hersh article makes the "OSAMA BIN LADEN ASSASSINATION" seem straight out of the most complicated spy cum political thriller. When will the actual truth be actually revealed to historians for documenting this amazing one-off operation by the "SEALS 6 " team in eliminating one of the World's most reclusive terrorists ?
1
The world has known about the SEALs for a long time. It has not been a secret, even Charlie Sheen made a movie about them over twenty years ago..
8
Oh, nonsense. Anyone who cared has known about Seal Team 6 for decades. Also, contrary to what the article says, all of the Seal teams are highly classified. Their existence, like that of DevGru, isn't secret. But beyond that, there's a code of silence.
3
Plus it seems like there was a deal where Pakistan allowed our forces to enter 'secretly' and eliminate Osama..as if they both knew where he was all that time..so many unclear things...
As far as I'm concerned, these guys can do no wrong. I thank God every day that brave men like this exist.
13
While I mostly agree, we -- as a nation -- must be vigilant that those acting under our banner do not stray from their declared mission.
4
fabulous article, NYT proving why it is the "Seal Team 6" of Journalism with this one.
4
They are stunningly brave warriors fighting in no-win wars to secure natural resources for our multinational corporations.
16
The use of the SEALs is just a small hint at what the US needs to explore further to address the modern battlefield. History has proven that a big bulky military cannot defeat a guerilla opponent. Particularly when the big bulky military is being projected over large distances onto the home turf of the guerillas. Indeed that is a well known significant (although not entire) portion of the British problem addressing the uprising of the American colonies.
The main problem is the corporations making huge sums of money off the current massively wasteful approach to the modern battlefield, and those corporations heavily "bribe" congress to be resistant to any change.
The main problem is the corporations making huge sums of money off the current massively wasteful approach to the modern battlefield, and those corporations heavily "bribe" congress to be resistant to any change.
8
Perhaps you are not aware of how much the Hessian mercenaries were a recruiting force for General Washington's Continentals.
Thanks to all of you with the many thoughtful comments. I have not read them all. Two issues I saw little mention of: 1) in the battle for hearts and minds, if such a concept is relevant, killing civilians is counterproductive. 2) if not too damaged after special forces service, and not ready or able to go into mainstream American life, there are those lucrative jobs in international "security." Didn't Gibbons attribute part of the decline and fall of Rome to an excessive dependence on mercenaries?
10
Bear in mind that ALL of our military forces are now "mercenary". There is no longer any conscription......
1
When will we ever have to deploy 500,000 ground troops again?
The downsizing of our military wasn’t just Obama’s grand plan- but most high ranking generals agree the U.S. needs a smaller and more agile fighting force. To make up for the traditional “strength in numbers” mentality we need more highly skilled Special Force Operatives. ST6 and Delta should be the standard blueprint for our modern military.
The reality is military service is a social safety net for many American’s who come from educationally and economically deprived households. Many barely graduate high school- and their justification for serving is out of necessity not patriotism.
If we are going to continue to meddle in foreign affairs and interject ourselves in every global conflict that erupts, then we should bite the bullet and reinstate the draft or begin a compulsory 3 year service for every 18 YO citizen- No exemptions! Even the mentally and physically challenged can contribute- I can think plenty of jobs they can do!
If all of our sons and daughters had skin in the game, maybe Senators McCain and Graham won’t be so quick to deal in death and judgment all the time!
The downsizing of our military wasn’t just Obama’s grand plan- but most high ranking generals agree the U.S. needs a smaller and more agile fighting force. To make up for the traditional “strength in numbers” mentality we need more highly skilled Special Force Operatives. ST6 and Delta should be the standard blueprint for our modern military.
The reality is military service is a social safety net for many American’s who come from educationally and economically deprived households. Many barely graduate high school- and their justification for serving is out of necessity not patriotism.
If we are going to continue to meddle in foreign affairs and interject ourselves in every global conflict that erupts, then we should bite the bullet and reinstate the draft or begin a compulsory 3 year service for every 18 YO citizen- No exemptions! Even the mentally and physically challenged can contribute- I can think plenty of jobs they can do!
If all of our sons and daughters had skin in the game, maybe Senators McCain and Graham won’t be so quick to deal in death and judgment all the time!
11
I was a military officer during the Vietnam war and saw first hand what a military full of draftees who don't want to serve is like. It's something we should consider only if we need huge numbers of people in service and cannot recruit them in any other way. That's not likely to occur in modern warfare and in the present environment a military draft would be a terrible idea.
4
The only reason to return to the "drafted" military is if you want to destroy and degrade that military.
God bless them and keep them safe. What a terrible life they have. Please, leave them alone and let them do their jobs. They are honorable men. Sometimes tragic mistakes happen in the heat of war.
16
This really makes us proud as Americans, leaders of the free world, doesn't it?
5
Uh, no.
1
Of course not, JeffP. It's pretty obvious geno's comment "This
really makes us proud as Americans, leaders of the free world,
doesn't it" was said in sarcasm.
really makes us proud as Americans, leaders of the free world,
doesn't it" was said in sarcasm.
2
No. It makes me, as a 10th and 12th generation Yankee WASP gun owner with 3 years of ROTC in my youth and a father in a WWII American Military Cemetery in France, suspicious of our Government when it sponsors operations by yahoos who in years past would have happily ridden with Genghis Kahn.
"Petty Officer First Class Neil C. Roberts...fell from a helicopter onto terrain held by Qaeda forces. Enemy fighters killed him...mutilating his body in the snow."
Mutilating his body in the snow. Unfortunately, the sentiments of Colonel Kurtz (the Apocalypse Now version) rings true. He says, “It’s judgment that defeats us.” And so it is against forces that will do anything to create horror and fear to destabilize.
Our enemies go to any extreme. Kurtz: "We left the camp after we had inoculated the children for polio...We went back there, and they had come and hacked off every inoculated arm. There they were in a pile. A pile of little arms...And then I realized... the genius of that! ...I realized they were stronger than we...They had the strength... to do that. If I had ten divisions of those men, our troubles here would be over very quickly."
Yes, indeed, "the horror, the horror." But even the bible calls for an eye for an eye. I am no fan of war, murder and mayhem. But if we do not at least appear to be willing to do ANYTHING to those who would do anything to us, we are weak and we will lose. I was at the World Trade Center on September 11th and saw, firsthand, those planes fly into those buildings and all the horror that ensued. To kill a mass of civilians to strike fear that those forces were willing to do anything. If we do not present that same edge of willingness to ISIL, Al Qaeda or whatever terror-of-the-month threat we face, we most certainly will lose.
Mutilating his body in the snow. Unfortunately, the sentiments of Colonel Kurtz (the Apocalypse Now version) rings true. He says, “It’s judgment that defeats us.” And so it is against forces that will do anything to create horror and fear to destabilize.
Our enemies go to any extreme. Kurtz: "We left the camp after we had inoculated the children for polio...We went back there, and they had come and hacked off every inoculated arm. There they were in a pile. A pile of little arms...And then I realized... the genius of that! ...I realized they were stronger than we...They had the strength... to do that. If I had ten divisions of those men, our troubles here would be over very quickly."
Yes, indeed, "the horror, the horror." But even the bible calls for an eye for an eye. I am no fan of war, murder and mayhem. But if we do not at least appear to be willing to do ANYTHING to those who would do anything to us, we are weak and we will lose. I was at the World Trade Center on September 11th and saw, firsthand, those planes fly into those buildings and all the horror that ensued. To kill a mass of civilians to strike fear that those forces were willing to do anything. If we do not present that same edge of willingness to ISIL, Al Qaeda or whatever terror-of-the-month threat we face, we most certainly will lose.
16
Excellent post. It is hard to maintain the will among the people of great civilization for so long. The Roman empire was a perfect example. After the last of the five good emperor in 180 AD became a period of questioning and then doubt by some of its population along with incompetent leaders. Icredible, It took almost three centuries for the inevitable fall in the west. The same thing is happening here in the USA. The liberals questioning and doubting the foundation of this country and also faulting the USA for the world problem creating guilt into the population. The Roman fall from greatness was slow, ours will be sudden because even when we are defending ourselves from those people who wish us harm; our own people stab us in the back.
4
Had we used tactical nukes at Tora Bora, that would have been the end of Muslim extremism. Cheney, who never wore a uniform in his life, forbade it because he stood to make money in a perpetual war.
I would venture to guess that the majority of young men who choose to become SEALSs do so out of a sense of duty to the navy and their country. To succeed—after brutal and demanding training—they must have character and strong self-discipline. As a civilian navy contractor, I met a number of SEALs, several aboard a US navy ship in the North Arabian Sea. They were with us only a few days and then were gone. Then, we quickly learned of Extortion 17. It was sobering and sad. They had been so full of life. But, the sacrifice of those lives is but one sort of sacrifice: Killing for a living is not an easy life.
11
I cannot think of another unit of armed force anywhere in the world that are more thirsty for blood and violence that they cannot stand not go on missions and would readily sign up with Blackwater and the likes just to kill again.
Defending America is heroic. Butchering locals half way across the world is not. But I am glad we are keeping people like them out of the U.S "on mission".
Defending America is heroic. Butchering locals half way across the world is not. But I am glad we are keeping people like them out of the U.S "on mission".
10
War is ugly, brutal, and unimaginably violent. To wage war successfully, you must be uglier, more brutal, and embrace violence. Anything less ensures defeat.
I am thankful that my service held none of those attributes, but recognize that other's service demands it.
I am thankful that my service held none of those attributes, but recognize that other's service demands it.
These specimens are a gift to our possibilities. Out of respect for the very things they do and the ones we don't, ignore doubt, curiosity and piety. This legion is a hallmark of a character base that cannot be measured and should not be managed. Sometimes the iron is always hot. And when it is, know that is for the very reasons you wished it to be.
1
Would anyone prefer these operators to be as effective as the Iraqi army? "Please be less effective." I am eating a pizza, the dog at my feet after a day of yard work. It's quiet here. There are 'militants' ('terrorists' is out of style, and 'beheaders' is totally unacceptable near pizza) who want to ruin our evening.
I choose 'more effective' as my answer. 'What have I won', you may well ask. The dog is snoring, he worked hard. And we have running water and power all day.
I choose 'more effective' as my answer. 'What have I won', you may well ask. The dog is snoring, he worked hard. And we have running water and power all day.
5
The Navy needs to get out of the Army business. That goes for the Seal AND the Marines who need to revert to being Naval Infantry- not a second Army.
4
Why?
"We train for war and fight to win. I stand ready to bring the full spectrum of combat power to bear in order to achieve my mission and the goals established by my country. The execution of my duties will be swift and violent when required. Brave men have fought and died building the proud tradition and feared reputation that I am bound to uphold."
The above is excerpted from the SEAL ethos. Just be glad they are on our side. God bless SEAL team 6.
The above is excerpted from the SEAL ethos. Just be glad they are on our side. God bless SEAL team 6.
16
The New York Times once again proves its indispensable status as a news gathering apparatus. Thank you for providing us with this impeccably researched and reported story.
17
I think the question here is not about the necessity of Team 6 - but about moral. Were those deaths necessary- could they have been avoided? Where does the line get drawn? Especially the children. It's easy to dehumanize these people but we're are talking about deaths of fathers, sons, friends, students, members of a community. Many people in these communities cooperate with these terrorist groups because they have to, out of fear, not because they want to. Do we really have the right to terrorize these people in their homes in the middle of the night and commit mass killings before any sort of trial? It's clear we are not always right - and aren't we accountable for that? this article raised more important questions for me and I'm grateful for that.
I am also grateful for the people willing to go to front line for us on Team 6 and beyond, but they are also human and under unimaginable emotional and mental pressure. there is no way to be sure that they are always go in to think clearly in every moment. That is why they, and the people who advise them, need regulation and monitoring to help keep their decisions in check. they need to be held accountable for their mistakes. No human or organization should ever have a no-questions-asked right to take another humans life, that is a power that can easily be abused or misused and needs some sort of transparency and regulation.
I am also grateful for the people willing to go to front line for us on Team 6 and beyond, but they are also human and under unimaginable emotional and mental pressure. there is no way to be sure that they are always go in to think clearly in every moment. That is why they, and the people who advise them, need regulation and monitoring to help keep their decisions in check. they need to be held accountable for their mistakes. No human or organization should ever have a no-questions-asked right to take another humans life, that is a power that can easily be abused or misused and needs some sort of transparency and regulation.
9
It would be nice if our military would get back to simply protecting the freedoms and liberties of the United States.... something it hasn't done in 70 years.
The problem though is that the military doesn't decide what their mission is and where to go. That is decided for them by politicians and bureaucrats.
Not until there is a fundamental change to US foreign policy and we stop trying to control the world with a bigger hammer will the military be able to do it's real job. Until then, it will merely serve the foreign policy interests of politicians and many more Americans will be killed in the process.
The problem though is that the military doesn't decide what their mission is and where to go. That is decided for them by politicians and bureaucrats.
Not until there is a fundamental change to US foreign policy and we stop trying to control the world with a bigger hammer will the military be able to do it's real job. Until then, it will merely serve the foreign policy interests of politicians and many more Americans will be killed in the process.
12
I would like to see these men turned lose on the drug gangs in Central and South America and even here in the US. Terrible, terrible people who are destroying the fabric of our society. My heart aches at the killing of innocents in the Mideast in the name of God. But I worry just as much about our youth victimized by the drug gangs.
1
GREAT comment! I fail to see how troops in Afghanistan and Iraq are preserving my liberties. Let other nations worry about their own internal affairs.
Remember that the USA is a product of 'freedom fighters' overthrowing a lawful English government, and that we have survived our own Civil War with little intervention from the global powers of the 1860s.
Remember that the USA is a product of 'freedom fighters' overthrowing a lawful English government, and that we have survived our own Civil War with little intervention from the global powers of the 1860s.
America's enemies, and terrorists who kidnap and kill Americans deserve to be killed themselves. I have no problem with terrorists being summarily executed in the field by SEAL Team 6 or any other US Armed Forces unit. Pirates, terrorist or drug cartel operatives should be terminated when the opportunity is presented. Special Operations troops should be deployed against drug cartels in Mexico and South America, to eradicate them. I would be an efficient way to reduce the importation of dangerous drugs into the United States. Other than the criminals, who would complain?
7
It wouldn't efficient at all in the case of the drug barons, as there are many waiting to step into their shoes. The illegal profits are the cause of 95% of the drug problem.
Law Enforcement Against Prohibition
www.leap.cc
Law Enforcement Against Prohibition
www.leap.cc
All the yakitiyak about freedom, religion, democracy, etc., is just a bunch of malarkey to get brave men to kill and to persuade the public it is necessary. In reality, war is about money. War has always been about money. War will always be about money.
War in the Middle East is no different. All the killing and blowing up has nothing whatsoever to do about one group thinks about God, or doesn't as the case may be, or whatever snake oil the politicians are peddling this week or next. It is about money. Specifically, profits from the sale of oil.
I am proud of all servicemen. However, they are used as pawns in what is at its foundation a fraud on the public. What makes this situation all the more sickening is that the oil companies, their top executives, and their largest shareholders pay almost no taxes. All of the cost of our military adventures (including mercenary forces) is borne by the servicemen and the ninety-nine percent.
I don't see much wrong in glorifying the achievements of our servicemen. However, we should not forget that there are other people, who also were important to their families, friends, and communities, at the other end of our bullets and bombs. We never see any articles in the NY Times about the complete devastation we have inflicted on the people in Iraq. This is deceitful.
I think that we should keep things in perspective, and then have an honest discussion about whether oil company profits are really worth the price we are paying.
War in the Middle East is no different. All the killing and blowing up has nothing whatsoever to do about one group thinks about God, or doesn't as the case may be, or whatever snake oil the politicians are peddling this week or next. It is about money. Specifically, profits from the sale of oil.
I am proud of all servicemen. However, they are used as pawns in what is at its foundation a fraud on the public. What makes this situation all the more sickening is that the oil companies, their top executives, and their largest shareholders pay almost no taxes. All of the cost of our military adventures (including mercenary forces) is borne by the servicemen and the ninety-nine percent.
I don't see much wrong in glorifying the achievements of our servicemen. However, we should not forget that there are other people, who also were important to their families, friends, and communities, at the other end of our bullets and bombs. We never see any articles in the NY Times about the complete devastation we have inflicted on the people in Iraq. This is deceitful.
I think that we should keep things in perspective, and then have an honest discussion about whether oil company profits are really worth the price we are paying.
22
The flaw in your essay is that those folks were killing each other long before oil came along, and my guess is they still will be after all the oil is gone.
Please do not make up stories about people and companies not paying taxes. Remember this is what cracking is all about. We have the ability in very short time to be independent of foreign oil
Perhaps your concern "about the complete devastation we have inflicted on the people in Iraq" would be lessened if you think about the total devastation of Kuwait by Iraq with high numbers of killed and wounded civilians.
I am grateful to these men for their service and sacrifice. We Americans can sleep a little easier at night knowing these men stand ready to protect us and do rough justice on our behalf. I tip my hat...
12
Unlike all conservatives and many others in this country, I tend to first ask myself how I'd feel if another country, especially one I don't necessarily support, was doing what we are doing. Then, I know my opinion at least has a chance of being valid. And would I like Russia doing this? No, I guess not.
9
Glad they are on our side! To quote George Orwell "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."
11
The problem is that we're doing violence to others when it doesn't need to be done.
10
I understand why targeted assassination is preferable to capture.
But, where is the "adult supervision" of these "Special Mission Units" such as the so-called "SEAL Team 6" ?
But, where is the "adult supervision" of these "Special Mission Units" such as the so-called "SEAL Team 6" ?
3
Politicians make policy; warriors carry it out.
Go ahead;demoralize and demonize our spacial forces. The result? They won't be there when you need them, just as the police in Baltimore are not there when the community need them because it has been demoralized and demonized.
21
When police, some like those in Baltimore, becomes lawless, there ceases to be both law and order. And it perpetuates an unending cycle of the worse in both.
I love it - when its our soldiers killing, its all good. When the russians do it - oh the humanity. Its too bad that all of you cheerleaders won't be here when the shoe's on the other foot. When that day comes, and it is coming - it will be your grandchildren - and they will get to be victims of the chinese. Hopefully they can deal with the horrors with the grace the afghans and iraqis have shown.
8
Perhaps this won't be necessary if your grandchildren are willing to fight for their ccountry like the approximately two/thirds of one percent of the population that serves in the U.S. Armed Forces (while the rest go shopping).
I didn't read the article. Didn't have to. "Suspicions rise?" I think they're assassinating people who should be assassinated, without being PC about it, or a second thought given to their civil liberties, at least I hope so. Would someone actually object to this? Maybe we've finally woke up. Forget the airstrikes without someone on the ground lasering precisely where to strike. Then they will really be effective. They have to be coordinated, that's why there is an Air Force and a infantry.
4
I just want to chime in to say I fully support SEAL Team 6. I support their mission and understand why we have them. No criticism here.
19
Most comments to this article betray a dangerously naive, almost child like view of the world and human nature. ISIS, Taliban, Rwanda, Bosnia, Cambodia,Korea, WWII, Poland, Czechoslovakia, the Baltics, Armenia, Does anyone remember how all of these innocents were slaughtered? Did negotiation, debate and diplomacy save their lives? Hope is not a plan of action. Seal Team 6 is one part of a plan to save our way of live.
17
So does savagery save lives?
Did diplomacy stop Hitler from invading Poland? , Sudetanland,? etc. Did a treaty stop Hitler from invading Russia? Did common decency and ethics prevent the Holocaust? Did appeals to decency prevent the slaughter of Armenians? Did the UN save lives in Bosnia before the UN bombing campaign? Did US non-intervention in Rwanda stop the slaughter of 1million people? Does asking the Palestinians in Gaza to stop launching missiles into Isreal stop the missiles? Has asking Putin to stop invading Ukraine, stopped the invasion? Please, let us all know your secret to preserving freedom, as we know it, without the military ability to deter aggression. How many millions more innocents must die to reprove the truth about human nature. We are a fragile and ephemeral democracy protected only by our will to defend it. If you don't believe it, then go live with the Coptic Christians in Cairo.
Thank God for 6. They go where not many others would and as long as they're out there, we are safe.
And don't think those they send on are innocents. The facts speak for themselves. As Yogi or Casey said, "You could look it up".
Ooh Rah
And don't think those they send on are innocents. The facts speak for themselves. As Yogi or Casey said, "You could look it up".
Ooh Rah
13
Would be good if U.S. Rep. Ryan Zinke's policies, those of a radical ring winger, contributed as much to the nation as his service as a SEAL did. Alas, his service to country will end as a net negative, a tragic unraveling of once honorable service.
Fortunately, most of the SEALs with whom I served were not just killers but thinkers, not surprisingly many of them Democrats who got the big picture.
Fortunately, most of the SEALs with whom I served were not just killers but thinkers, not surprisingly many of them Democrats who got the big picture.
7
American exceptionalism leads to rogue assassination squads. America, the shining city upon a hill is just another crime-ridden town.
17
When faced with ideologies whose sole goal is the total destruction of the western world, I prefer the use of highly trained military resources on the ground rather than lawyers escounced in their marble-floored towers.
I salute these brave warriors who risk their lives so we may be safe. They do not question orders, only ask how to carry them out. These are the best of our young and we owe them a great deal
12
The article focuses on what Team 6 (and Delta) members do overseas. I have another concern: What are these veterans like when they come home? How can they learn to operate within civil society after they operated outside the law, stayed inside secret networks, used killing and other violent tactics, and then came home. Are they now the clean cut guys who live next door to us, go to religious services, shop, raise kids, go to PTA meetings and little league games -- and vote as if they were just "normal" folks. What role do they play in American life and politics inside the USA after living withing the secret military framework? How do they vote? What societies do they join? Whom do they work for? What influences are they on their kids? This is beyond our caring for our "wounded warriors" who fought in the military. This is about those who volunteer and are trained to be in an elite and very special unit -- and then come home. I would like to know more about this.
6
They are very intelligent men and no, they aren't "normal," one couldn't be to do what they do. But they can be damaging to themselves and their relationships with family members and loved ones; because many of them suffer with some form of traumatic brain injury, PTS and have learned to behave in an isolated manner. We owe it to them to make sure they get the help and support they need to adjust to civilian life because it is very difficult for many of them. They're not going to come after you with a tomahawk and most of them go on to work in private contracting or in some form of business of their own.
Never forget ..................... the only way to stop a bad guy with a weapon, is a good guy with a weapon. God bless, Seal Team 6!
Good Day
Good Day
14
Did Jesus say that? Do conservatives even care a tiny bit about the actual teachings of the man they pretend to follow? It amazes me how absolutely everything Christians stand for is the opposite of what Jesus taught.
3
"Beware that, when fighting monsters, you yourself do not become a monster... for when you gaze long into the abyss. The abyss gazes also into you.”
― Friedrich Nietzsche
― Friedrich Nietzsche
One common thread runs through this article the U.S. Military operating in sovereign nations.
US Wars and Countries Invaded by US Troops since 1959
Vietnam War (1959–1975)
United States occupation of the Dominican Republic (1965–66)
Six-Day War (1967)
USS Liberty incident (1967)
Lebanese Civil War (1975-1990)
Multinational Force in Lebanon (1982)
Invasion of Grenada (1983)
Invasion of Panama (1989–1990)
Persian Gulf War (1990–1991)
Kosovo War (1998–1999)
Global War on Terrorism (2001–present)
War in Afghanistan (2001–14)
Iraq War (2003–2011)
War in Afghanistan (2015–present)
International campaign against ISIL (2014–present)
US Wars and Countries Invaded by US Troops since 1959
Vietnam War (1959–1975)
United States occupation of the Dominican Republic (1965–66)
Six-Day War (1967)
USS Liberty incident (1967)
Lebanese Civil War (1975-1990)
Multinational Force in Lebanon (1982)
Invasion of Grenada (1983)
Invasion of Panama (1989–1990)
Persian Gulf War (1990–1991)
Kosovo War (1998–1999)
Global War on Terrorism (2001–present)
War in Afghanistan (2001–14)
Iraq War (2003–2011)
War in Afghanistan (2015–present)
International campaign against ISIL (2014–present)
9
You forgot the Bay of Pigs, which we clearly organized, funded, and led.
On the good side: Team 6 represents a much needed adjustment to modern warfare, wherein the majority of American military leaders want all the tanks and armies that worked in WWII. Certainly one of the most creative and effective military operations was that Osama bin Laden launched on 9/11. The Bush administration then responded, with typical stupidity, with an upgraded WWII force, with the result of millions killed, Iraqi's and our own troops (given wonderful sign up bonus, numerous other incentives, and the title of "warrior" if wounded or killed).
On the other hand, deconstruct 'The Secret History...", and its childish effort to engender macho feelings in (presumably for male readers): what purpose in having several pictures of the coolest sort of MP7 type firearms. Some of the type who are dying to get into Team 6, local police departments will be dying to recruit.
Used in moderation the Team 6 approach seems to work with the President's effort to make other countries, particularly those like Afghanistan and Iraq carry the burden of their own wars--something Republicans really don't want.
On the other hand, deconstruct 'The Secret History...", and its childish effort to engender macho feelings in (presumably for male readers): what purpose in having several pictures of the coolest sort of MP7 type firearms. Some of the type who are dying to get into Team 6, local police departments will be dying to recruit.
Used in moderation the Team 6 approach seems to work with the President's effort to make other countries, particularly those like Afghanistan and Iraq carry the burden of their own wars--something Republicans really don't want.
12
So the little dears all wear halos and anything untoward is a tragic mistake?
Forgive me for doubting it!
Sad that it includes the 'Killing of Osama bin Laden', who died in 2001 and the funeral was widely reported throughout the ME. Sort of destroys the credibility of those who wrote this, somewhat.
But hey, if you are writing a script for a movie, a little trashing of the truth is warranted, isn't it?
Heros? Murders more likely. but this as ever is the way of the US.
Forgive me for doubting it!
Sad that it includes the 'Killing of Osama bin Laden', who died in 2001 and the funeral was widely reported throughout the ME. Sort of destroys the credibility of those who wrote this, somewhat.
But hey, if you are writing a script for a movie, a little trashing of the truth is warranted, isn't it?
Heros? Murders more likely. but this as ever is the way of the US.
4
reply to Peter Hindrup: I realize that your sarcasm and opinion is not what most Australians believe. Your parents and grandparents most probably appreciated that the United States was an ally during World War II. Against the threat of Islamic terrorism, you should advocate an alliance with Indonesia; your neighbor to the north. I am sure that Indonesia, a stable, military dictatorship would be most reliable.
1
Simply unbelievable. What constitutes 'secret'? These guys with the big mouths are all cowboys and have let the team down. Shame on them. It was far better to remain silent with honour and respect. All that has gone down the drain along with their service records...so it should be.
6
Sometimes spec op work involves appearing in a newspaper as a disgruntled or careless or unpatriotic individual. When people berate them for their performance, the enemy feels that is corroboration that the information is real and the enemy adjusts to fit the false scenario. If that is the case here, you have been helpful. That 'cowboys' remark was near genius in it's simplistic immaturity, an award caliber performance.
At long last, is this what we've come to? shame on us. shame
15
Their unique value appears to be as assassins.
16
"they have engaged in combat so intimate that they have emerged soaked in blood that was not their own"
Well, that is the point of combat, even (especially?) the "intimate" kind
Well, that is the point of combat, even (especially?) the "intimate" kind
12
People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.
George Orwell
George Orwell
19
Thank you to those who risk their lives every day to keep us safe. We can only guess what these best of the best have done that we can never know about.
19
Seeing how hard it is to get newly graduated lawyers to get work in the legal field the teams should be recruiting some of these guys and gals to accompany the teams on missions to provide guidance on whether or not to take a shot. This was depicted in the movie "American Sniper" where the seal sniper was advised by his spotter to call it in before he shot the kid with the RPG, Kyle radioed the situation in and was advised (I suppose by the JAG sitting back at HQ) in a typical lawyer answer that it was his call. In other words, if a later investigation determined the shot was improper you are facing a CM. If the legal officer received a modified BUDS they could be right next to the operator to provide on-site guidance and even act act a spotter.
3
As a prerequisite I would have said lawyers hold the targets for basic firearms training.
2
Your kidding right?
If your suggestion is not demonstrative of how absurd our expectations of our military are, then I don't know what is. Like literally we're asking our trained soldier in the theater of war, darkness, and against an enemy that would torture, rape, or suicide bomb him (and you) if they had the opportunity to, of course, radio prior to any action into a LAWYER to see if he can shoot. It's like most of our mainstream media people believe war has a "pause" button where one can consult the manual prior to engaging the enemy.
And my incredulousness is not directed at you, ez, for making such a comment -- given our climate of being critical of our troops for situations that we couldn't even fathom operating within, what you've suggested might actually be necessary to avoid rampant courts martial.
And my incredulousness is not directed at you, ez, for making such a comment -- given our climate of being critical of our troops for situations that we couldn't even fathom operating within, what you've suggested might actually be necessary to avoid rampant courts martial.
I can't help but sense a certain degree of criticism permeating this piece. And I find it appalling.
26
Deeply disturbing and disgusting. This is what the United States stands for?
17
You most certainly are.
6
Did you think our fairly prosperous and free lives in New York City didn't have a group of our own citizens protecting us from those who would take such lives away?
They deserve our praise. Not our disgust.
They deserve our praise. Not our disgust.
To those who ask, what right the US has to send these men abroad and fight the enemy, the answer is two fold: 1) The Constitution and 2) It is anyone's God given right to protect ourselves.
6
So who or what is this "god" who gives you the right to defend yourself by being the aggressor in foreign lands?
2
Sean, I agree with you, But best to keep references to supreme being out of it. Our right to protect ourselves doesn't depend on the supernatural.
Our adversaries invoke their god to justify beheading and all that. Let's not try to out-sanctimony them.
Our adversaries invoke their god to justify beheading and all that. Let's not try to out-sanctimony them.
Robert- you do realize that the future king of the Israelites as a novice boy warrior beheaded Goliath while Goliath was still semi conscious? According to Biblical folklore Goliath was only incapacitated by the stone. So the king of the Jews was a sadist who beheaded his foe? Gee, I thought only Islamic militatns did such things.
And when the Russian / Chinese / French / Iranian / British / Turkish / etc. equivalents of ST6 are discovered operating in Texas / Florida / Pennsylvania / California / Virginia / Utah / etc., what will the American reaction be? Righteous indignation at another country usurping our God-given rights under the doctrine of American exceptionalism?
19
The American reaction will be to call in Seal team 6. Any other questions?
We'll nuke them of course.
Seal Team Six's mission may flout international law, but I dont think that has concerned most American's generally speaking. Even in the case of possible extra judicial killings. I think one concern that hasnt been addressed is that they may become the modern version of the Praetorian Guard, with Seal's and other Special Forces men siding with politicians to support more aggressive foreign policy agendas. The Praetorian Guard were seen in awe by the Roman people, soldiers with highest commitment to protecting them and the Emperor but whose actions couldnt be questioned, no matter what they did. Above the law.
80
A very creative hypothesis, but there are big differences between the Roman Republic's constitution and ours that makes SEAL involvement at the top political level unlikely. The president's bodyguards aren't SEALs or Deltas for one thing. We have a much larger defense establishment with a civilian secretary and military joint chiefs (who don't seek personal victories in the war theatres); these people are most likely to have influence at the White House. Inputs also come from an elected Congress the Romans didn't have. (Their senators were mostly heads of the richest households, who joined the Roman Senate by invitation and stayed in for life.) Not that our constitution cannot fall to a dictatorship, but if it does, it won't do so in the way that the Roman Republic's did.
The key question is "above whose law?"
Clandestine operators are always breaking the law of some foreign land.
We don't want them breaking American law.
Parsing that line is tough. But it is worth doing.
Clandestine operators are always breaking the law of some foreign land.
We don't want them breaking American law.
Parsing that line is tough. But it is worth doing.
1
American troops are not material for a "Praetorian Guard". The oath is not to an individual.
As an über clandestine hit squad Seal Team 6 is the living embodiment and pinnacle of Americans' image of masculinity. They are our Captain Americas. Their acts are our chance to live like spectators in the Roman colosseum and revel in a vicarious and riotous blood lust. Justified of course because we are at war with a slippery and ruthless anti western ideology.
Thank you for this article, it makes me consider. When we think of the innocent civilians that are killed in these operations and how it can be prevented, let's also think about these selfless super soldiers. Their bodies and minds belong to the State, and they are broken and beaten for our benefit and they don't complain, like the most loyal protector. It's better to push our leaders have a political policy in the future that sees us protected via diplomacy that utilizes these heroes less often than they are right now. It seems we've been pushing them a bit too hard.
Thank you for this article, it makes me consider. When we think of the innocent civilians that are killed in these operations and how it can be prevented, let's also think about these selfless super soldiers. Their bodies and minds belong to the State, and they are broken and beaten for our benefit and they don't complain, like the most loyal protector. It's better to push our leaders have a political policy in the future that sees us protected via diplomacy that utilizes these heroes less often than they are right now. It seems we've been pushing them a bit too hard.
7
Well said, although I don't think it's particularly "Americans' image of masculinity." Small units of elite troops daring extreme hazards in secret (e.g.: trench raids in World War I, Commandos and Kamikaze in World War II} are generally idolized. Ultimately it's a balancing process. Do the lives of those who will die if we lose outweigh the lives lost in winning? Do the dangers of transparency outweigh the benefits of secrecy? Which alternative is morally superior? That's difficult enough in "normal" wars between organized bodies of uniformed soldiers, and virtually impossible in today's brush fire wars.
I believe that the operatives are highly trained, disciplined and are tasked with extraordinary, highly life-threatening duties. The less that is divulged publicly about their techniques and methods, the better. Are split second decisions in night or even day combat situations always perfect? No. The integrity of the vast majority of operatives is commendably high, I firmly believe, and we should be comforted that they are ready for what most of us know abstractly as the fog of war, but that for them is reality, often on a few hours' notice. I also believe that their respect for command and their team members is unparallelled. Their conduct should only be judged by those with all the facts.
I object to our engagement in Iraq and Afghanistan, but do not hold the operatives in the article responsible. They and their families bear the awful consequences of our country's decisions.
I object to our engagement in Iraq and Afghanistan, but do not hold the operatives in the article responsible. They and their families bear the awful consequences of our country's decisions.
16
Did anyone even consider who these men really are. They are husbands, sons, fathers, brothers, uncles. They are college graduates, Eagle Scouts, Captain of their Sports Team. Magna Cum Laude, Suma Cum Laude. They are religious, they believe in a God. They chose to serve our country. They chose to be the best of the best. They chose to be a U.S. Navy SEAL. Go and read the SEAL Ethos. You will then know what a SEAL is.
They put their life on the line every single day for you and me protecting our freedom. Have you done that? If you haven't then don't question something you know nothing about. Our military and their families need your support not your anguish.
My son lies in Arlington next to his brave teammates of Extortion 17. Don't ever forget their sacrifices.
They put their life on the line every single day for you and me protecting our freedom. Have you done that? If you haven't then don't question something you know nothing about. Our military and their families need your support not your anguish.
My son lies in Arlington next to his brave teammates of Extortion 17. Don't ever forget their sacrifices.
62
Mr. B,
Let me first extend my deepest gratitude to your son and family. His memory, along with those of all our lost brothers will endure. The sacrifices that he made at the alter of freedom will not be forgotten.
I did not know Brian personally, but I have heard stories told by men that worked with him and read others. Hopefully I can raise our boys to be half the man he was.
Long Live The Brotherhood!
Let me first extend my deepest gratitude to your son and family. His memory, along with those of all our lost brothers will endure. The sacrifices that he made at the alter of freedom will not be forgotten.
I did not know Brian personally, but I have heard stories told by men that worked with him and read others. Hopefully I can raise our boys to be half the man he was.
Long Live The Brotherhood!
3
What if I do not believe that these men are actually making us safe. What if I believe that much of the chaos in the world is because of the murder and mayhem that these men bring to the world.What if I believe that we are reaping what these men have sown. What if I believe that none of us are free when these men, in our name, are killing at will.
Would you sent a team of men to kill me?
Would you sent a team of men to kill me?
I am sorry you lost your son. I have a son and two brothers who served in combat. I worried and still worry constantly about their safety and the safety of their friends. The risks at the tip of the sword are higher than the article sets forth.
Cant be that Secret if the Times knows about it
4
The term "limited oversight" is a loaded term. They don't order their own missions. They are told where to go and what to do by their superiors. Those superiors report through the chain of command to the President of the United States. They do not report to Congress directly, but I'm sure the Armed Services committee is aware of their activities. That is enough oversight for me. If they begin to order their own missions, then I'll get worried.
4
Unfortunately, sometimes your enemy dictates the terms of engagement. It's probably a blessing that the SEALs have adapted but it's too bad it had to be.
4
“If you want these forces to do things that occasionally bend the rules of international law,” said James G. Stavridis, a retired admiral and former Supreme Allied Commander at NATO, referring to going into undeclared war zones, “you certainly don’t want that out in public.” Team 6, he added, “should continue to operate in the shadows.”
Of course, it's certainly out in public within the countries in which these teams operate. Their citizens are well aware of their activities that bend the rules of international law. The only place where the military and the politicians that direct them don't want "that out in public" is in the U.S.A.
Of course, it's certainly out in public within the countries in which these teams operate. Their citizens are well aware of their activities that bend the rules of international law. The only place where the military and the politicians that direct them don't want "that out in public" is in the U.S.A.
12
To terminate with extreme prejudice is sometimes a necessary thing I am glad we have them. Let them be.
10
The United States finally gets it; a stealthy pragmatic approach to military action. The Navy SEALs must be heralded for their tenaciously on behalf of the nation as well as the world. To vilify their efforts is an abomination.
The United States as sole world power has a responsibility; first and foremost, to protect every American's wellbeing domestically and abroad.
Has the U.S. adopted Isreali ways?
Due to the number of wars and border conflicts in which the IDF has been involved in its short history makes it one of the most battle-trained armed forces in the world.
Israel is also unique as its Supreme Court ruled in favor of targeted killings, also called focused foiling, targeted killing.
The IDF is respected as among the best of the world’s special forces often rated as one of the top three in the world compared to the US Navy SEALs and Britain's Special Boat Service.
The three most well known:
1) Sayeret Matkal-intelligence behind enemy lines & hostage-rescue unit,
2) Shayetet 13-naval commando unit.
3) Shaldag Unit-commando air unit.
Another of Isreal's most potent globally recognized entity's is the Mossad.
Mossad is the national intelligence agency (a/k/a: the worlds most efficient killing machine). It's also, home to the famed Kidon, an elite group of expert assassins.
It's a sound and proven effective platform to consider.
The United States as sole world power has a responsibility; first and foremost, to protect every American's wellbeing domestically and abroad.
Has the U.S. adopted Isreali ways?
Due to the number of wars and border conflicts in which the IDF has been involved in its short history makes it one of the most battle-trained armed forces in the world.
Israel is also unique as its Supreme Court ruled in favor of targeted killings, also called focused foiling, targeted killing.
The IDF is respected as among the best of the world’s special forces often rated as one of the top three in the world compared to the US Navy SEALs and Britain's Special Boat Service.
The three most well known:
1) Sayeret Matkal-intelligence behind enemy lines & hostage-rescue unit,
2) Shayetet 13-naval commando unit.
3) Shaldag Unit-commando air unit.
Another of Isreal's most potent globally recognized entity's is the Mossad.
Mossad is the national intelligence agency (a/k/a: the worlds most efficient killing machine). It's also, home to the famed Kidon, an elite group of expert assassins.
It's a sound and proven effective platform to consider.
9
We need to be careful that the orders can be traced to a real legitimate task that is not obscured by secrecy.
In 1975 the late Senator Frank Church found that our government was unable to trace the origins of a kill list and that he found this fact to be very troublesome. That when there is a hit list made to advance a mission to take people out it needed to be traceable to the people who make these kind of assignation assignments. That it was necessary to know who made the call.
He found that the process had become blurred by the involvement of big corporations. That some CEOs had used the CIA as a front to get rid of entire families who had nationalize the assets of these companies.
Senator Church felt this type of retaliation.. to use the American CIA to do their dirty work to be a disgraceful act that must not be permitted……
We are now lead again down a very dark road where our Senate is ham strung into a misguided story line of deceptions to get this shit approved…..
When they know very well they are a bunch of putezes who can’t nail jellow to the wall….
YES…. as Senator Church was saying in an open session of a hearing on the fact that he as a Senator was unable to find out who had made the order to kill these people on a hit list!
Very scary shit!!!!
In 1975 the late Senator Frank Church found that our government was unable to trace the origins of a kill list and that he found this fact to be very troublesome. That when there is a hit list made to advance a mission to take people out it needed to be traceable to the people who make these kind of assignation assignments. That it was necessary to know who made the call.
He found that the process had become blurred by the involvement of big corporations. That some CEOs had used the CIA as a front to get rid of entire families who had nationalize the assets of these companies.
Senator Church felt this type of retaliation.. to use the American CIA to do their dirty work to be a disgraceful act that must not be permitted……
We are now lead again down a very dark road where our Senate is ham strung into a misguided story line of deceptions to get this shit approved…..
When they know very well they are a bunch of putezes who can’t nail jellow to the wall….
YES…. as Senator Church was saying in an open session of a hearing on the fact that he as a Senator was unable to find out who had made the order to kill these people on a hit list!
Very scary shit!!!!
8
I liked and respected Sen. Church but he was better off not knowing. Think about it folks, which one of the 100 senators now serving would you trust enough to give your facebook password to, no less Seal 6 info?
I agree that something that was conceived to be a "surgical tool" is being used as a blunt instrument, but then all of our armed forces are hugely overstressed by repeated deployments to endless wars.
I believe in supporting the troops, and the best way to support them is to refrain from sending them in harm's way on a fool's errand.
I believe in supporting the troops, and the best way to support them is to refrain from sending them in harm's way on a fool's errand.
8
I was one of the few who was asked to join SEAL in boot camp. I'd had a perfect score on the military entrance exam and scored high on the general subjects and math skills test. I had a perfect score on the Foreign Language Aptitude Test. The guy who was talking to me knew that I'd had 3 years of French and that was needed in Viet Nam.
The problem for me was the six year commitment. I had a job before joining that was a career with a large company. According to law they had to take me back after four years but not after six.
It was tempting but I resisted. Instead I was sent to the SEABEES, the first person selected after 148 companies of 80 recruits each from Orlando.
After I got out I went back to my employer. In a few years I decided the job wasn't worth it and fortunately I was laid off in 1985 before I started hating myself as much as I hated the job because I wouldn't quit.
44 years later I sometimes wonder if I'd passed up the adventure that comes once in a lifetime.
The problem for me was the six year commitment. I had a job before joining that was a career with a large company. According to law they had to take me back after four years but not after six.
It was tempting but I resisted. Instead I was sent to the SEABEES, the first person selected after 148 companies of 80 recruits each from Orlando.
After I got out I went back to my employer. In a few years I decided the job wasn't worth it and fortunately I was laid off in 1985 before I started hating myself as much as I hated the job because I wouldn't quit.
44 years later I sometimes wonder if I'd passed up the adventure that comes once in a lifetime.
5
Thanks to these brave people for protecting Americans from some of the nastiest people ever known to the human race. To get on their hit list, one must be beyond the pale, guilty of war crimes, and advancing more war crimes. Destroying these people cannot be done by committee. I invite detractors to view beheadings by ISIS and rapes by Boko Haram. It is all available on recruitment videos online. We only get to sip tea and philosophies because of the safety produced by our military. I am ever so left, but this is a tragic reality. I project great thanks and prayers to these Seals.
7
America should be proud of such an elite force. Who else would you send to destroy those who would do you harm.
4
Whatever happened to the days when Navy SEALs shunned publicity and refused to have their pictures taken? Nowadays, they are the glamor girls of the Special Operations community. Half of these guys join with the idea that once they cash out to cash in they'll get a book deal or star in a movie. And the amount of whining that comes out of the SEAL community is disgraceful. Lone Survivor? What in the world did Luttrell and his buddies think they were signing up for in the first place? A chance to be cool? And then there was the controversy about who actually killed bin Laden. "I killed bin Laden. No, you didn't kill bin Laden, I killed bin Laden!" Remember the sap article that Robert O'Neill had ghostwritten for him that appeared in Esquire? You want see real courage firsthand? Walk into into children's' cancer ward and look at the parents and kids. These people play it as it lays every day.
6
Excellent article. Perfection in national defense is limited, as in all professions, especially war, by problems in clear communication. It's never perfect, whether its in a hospital, office, or a battlefield.
The world has changed a lot over the last two decades and grows more dangerous by the day. Having been anti-war, especially in Viet Nam and Iraq, I'm not anti-defense, when legitimate. It appears from this article that most of the time it is legitimate, despite the errors. The idea of Daesh obtaining nuclear weapons is not a pleasant concept. I'm glad SEAL Team 6 is there, despite the errors they may make in the future.
The world has changed a lot over the last two decades and grows more dangerous by the day. Having been anti-war, especially in Viet Nam and Iraq, I'm not anti-defense, when legitimate. It appears from this article that most of the time it is legitimate, despite the errors. The idea of Daesh obtaining nuclear weapons is not a pleasant concept. I'm glad SEAL Team 6 is there, despite the errors they may make in the future.
3
Great reporting on a very important unit of our military. The failure of the forces during the Iranian hostage crisis to complete their mission has taught our military an important lesson. These guys do not fail. This unit is made up of some of the best and bravest men our country has to offer. I'm grateful and proud of their action.
2
These guys do cool and amazing things, but are they really that necessary? It seems like they are dealing with things so far on the margins that it makes no real difference in the grand scheme of things. They seem like some really expensive search and rescue force.
1
It seems a pretty large cheap shot to paint these guys as undisciplined cowboys when a hostage rescue goes awry. I bet Jessica Buchanan is very glad they showed up.
4
It is possible to talk about two different things at one time. If there is very little oversight the type of cowboys who join such a unit can easily get out of hand. How about if they are given discretion and take a mile and cause problems. Every brave person is not always honorable. Understanding what people actually do is not a cheap shot. It almost seems like a cheap shot to say that they can never be questioned
Thank God for individuals like this who accomplish amazing acts of heroism on behalf of all of us that live in the United States. Navy Seals have done more for democracy then all of our political leaders combined. They are also paid a pittance of salary for their incredible sacrifice.
We should all be grateful.
We should all be grateful.
5
They get their reward when they erve their time and leave to make big bucks as merceenaries for private contractors.
1
From a Canadian: God Bless the United States Navy
3
I have no problem with these guys or the way they operate. Wish we had more of 'em.
5
Wait until the 'enemy', whoever they might be, begins waging such tactics on the US mainland, then wait for the howls of how 'uncivilsed' this all is!
1
Wow. So many raids that simply inspires "AWE." I'm sure glad and proud to be an American.
1
The hype in this story just goes on and on! It was rather boring scrolling in and out of the action-laced paragraphs. Bottom line, these are America's best fighting men. They are ordered out on their dark missions by our Commander in Chief. Lets hope that every Seal team 6 assignment is successful. But what is the author's intent in writing about these "secret" missions? ... especially when Americans seem to have calloused from never-ending violence everywhere. Does the writer expect an emotional reaction when he brings up questionable killings of unarmed "schoolboys?" If we haven't learned by now that our world and lives are totally unpredictable, no matter where we're living, we're being naive and hypocritical at best.
4
A hostage questioned why the Seal Team killed all his captors. How utterly ridiculous. Not worth saving. But kudos to Seal Team 6!!
3
The enemy fights 'dirty' and we need these soldiers to use the same tactics. Leave them alone and let them do what they do.
16
This is my day for fake outrage. First, I got in practice by responding to the Times story about the lady psychic in Manhattan who made more than $700,000 dollars from a Brooklyn guy whose California love interest did not respond in kind, then had the nerve to die suddenly on him, possibly from a drug overdose. The psychic told him she would do what?! And he paid her how much?! Etc.
Here, I am working up a lather about Seal Team 6. You mean to tell me we have spooky elite soldiers who go around killing people in foreign countries and we don't even know about it?! What?! They should make movies and TV shows about this sort of stuff so we would be aware it, and be able to make informed decisions about it when we vote. I would watch shows about crazy women spies who like jazz and casual sex and terrorists
I might have to turn into a hard-core libertarian so we can stop doing these awful things in our foreign policy. I don't mean a fake libertarian like Rand Paul. I mean a real one like his father, Ron Paul, who inherited the kooky-Texas politician mantle from Ross Perot sometime in the past 15 years. And Ron isn't even from Texas. Ladies, imagine having Ron Paul as your gynecologist. No, don't. You can do better.
My fake outrage self-rating: 5 out of 10.
3
Only in America ! We have a "secret", well trained force of fighters. We send them to do covert missions that one hopes are deemed important for our security in a dirty world out to harm us, and the New York Times chooses to publish a column not only describing the unit but castigating their actions and criticizing their work. Yes, people will die, yes not all are guilty of anti US actions, but look at who these Seals are dealing with. I think a prerequisite for a columnist who chooses to criticize our military covert units ought to train and go on a mission with them to see first hand what is done and how these brave people get there. Any bets how many would volunteer let alone qualify?
We are in a global war. It is my recollection that in time of war exposure of military secrets was treasonable. I leave the judgement up to the readers. Should America desist from effective covert actions against our enemies or should we feel more secure knowing that at least deep down the Jihadists will have that nagging fear that there is a team out there that has them in their sights?
Keep up the good work Navy Seals.
We are in a global war. It is my recollection that in time of war exposure of military secrets was treasonable. I leave the judgement up to the readers. Should America desist from effective covert actions against our enemies or should we feel more secure knowing that at least deep down the Jihadists will have that nagging fear that there is a team out there that has them in their sights?
Keep up the good work Navy Seals.
27
Seems to me that ST6 is an extremely useful implement in our country's toolbox. We need this kind of operative, especially since our enemies often pursue whatever means possible to do us harm. Let them alone to do what they do best.
22
"let them alone" always has a downside.
Thank you proud warriors for keeping us safe.
18
'Come out, with your Salafist delusions, or American dreams, where we can see 'em.'
Seal Team Six, and ISIS, brothers from another front company.
Seal Team Six, and ISIS, brothers from another front company.
5
Fightin' for their country against some very, very bad people. If I met one of these guys in a bar, the drinks would be on me.
17
Seal Team 6, one of the elite elements of the empire maintenance department.
12
The rule seems to be pretty simple. If you are in a compound where an American is being held hostage, and meet a rather broad definition of an enemy combatant, the U.S. Military will kill you. I am completely OK with that. If you don't like that risk profile make different choices.
33
Thank God for the existence of these brave courageous men who protect us from those who would do us terrible harm. As they say about sausage making, it isn't pretty. But we need people like this. God protect you all.
18
Ever since there has been human civilization, we have distributed & delegated responsibility for different activities to different groups of individuals. After we mastered domestication of livestock and mass-scale agriculture, that freed up many of us to pursue different endeavors outside the constant tasks of hunting and growing our own food. Some of us became builders of things. Some doctors. Some writers. And some of us became soldiers. My point is, we have all become specialized threads in an interconnected social fabric. Having steely, stealthy and deadly soldiers like the SEAL teams enables the rest of us to focus on our own specializations and not having to be citizen/soldiers like the Spartans.
Sometimes, it strikes me that there is a degree of naivete of the threats that we now face as a nation. We have graduated from the Cold War into the Lone Wolf War, where the stalemate of mutually-assured self destruction is not sufficient deterrents to safe guard our nation. We needs groups of individuals like this to seek out and terrorize the terrorists, before they can trickle into our society, for once they reach our shores, it is too late.
None of this will matter to some of us, because at the present time, the pendulum is swinging back toward maximum transparency, accountability, etc. When another attack happens, the pendulum swings back the other way, to demanding maximum security. In truth, we need to split the difference of both concerns.
Sometimes, it strikes me that there is a degree of naivete of the threats that we now face as a nation. We have graduated from the Cold War into the Lone Wolf War, where the stalemate of mutually-assured self destruction is not sufficient deterrents to safe guard our nation. We needs groups of individuals like this to seek out and terrorize the terrorists, before they can trickle into our society, for once they reach our shores, it is too late.
None of this will matter to some of us, because at the present time, the pendulum is swinging back toward maximum transparency, accountability, etc. When another attack happens, the pendulum swings back the other way, to demanding maximum security. In truth, we need to split the difference of both concerns.
9
I bet these guys could really teach our militarized police forces a thing or two.
1
Yeah, wait until they turn in your local police force!
I'm not sure how else we should fight an enemy with no official government and no clear ties to a country recognized by the rest of the world. Organizations such as ISIS and the Taliban wish to subjugate the world, by any means necessary and force their religious beliefs on others. Western societies have a deep respect for the freedom of religion as well as the freedom from religion and we cannot stand idly by and allow individuals, who operate outside accepted norms of behavior and let them terrorize the rest of the world.
10
Operating "outside of accepted norms of behavior" is not limited to the people chosen by the US leaders to target. Invasions of nations that have not attacked, occupations, extra-judicial killing, etc. are also "outside the norms". And while people in the US may see our country as having rights that no other country does, people abroad don't.
"In their annual End of Year poll, researchers for WIN and Gallup International surveyed more than 66,000 people across 65 nations and found that 24 percent of all respondents answered that the United States “is the greatest threat to peace in the world today.” Pakistan and China fell significantly behind the United States on the poll, with 8 and 6 percent, respectively. Afghanistan, Iran, Israel and North Korea all tied for fourth place with 4 percent." http://www.ibtimes.com/gallup-poll-biggest-threat-world-peace-america-15...
If any other nation had its drones or death teams here, we'd feel the same.
"In their annual End of Year poll, researchers for WIN and Gallup International surveyed more than 66,000 people across 65 nations and found that 24 percent of all respondents answered that the United States “is the greatest threat to peace in the world today.” Pakistan and China fell significantly behind the United States on the poll, with 8 and 6 percent, respectively. Afghanistan, Iran, Israel and North Korea all tied for fourth place with 4 percent." http://www.ibtimes.com/gallup-poll-biggest-threat-world-peace-america-15...
If any other nation had its drones or death teams here, we'd feel the same.
1
Its my religious belief that we should kill those who would kill us for their religious beliefs. You can see how inherently superior my position is.
1
I admit I just skimmed over the article, but it was enough to bring to mind similar elite teams, like the Green Berets and Special Forces who conducted the same kind of secret operations in the Vietnam war, with the same license to act on their own authority, answering to no one. Only years after that war ended we learned of the atrocities committed in the name of 'duty'. The fact that these forces are legitimized by some kind of military strategy doesn't make them any less questionable.
19
From its lofty stated goal of carrying out the most difficult, rarest and cannot be accomplished by any other means, the Seal Team 6 has degenerated into a robotic killing machine. Based on international conventions, laws or any reasonable standard of conducting warfare, Seal Team 6 is guilty of war crimes and crimes against humanity. The President, Congress and top military officers must place limits on the use of Seal Team 6. Excessive reliance on Seal team 6 or, for that matter, Delta Force, obscures and defeats the political purposes of conducting warfare. I am disappointed by the many comments supporting the excessive use of Seal Team 6 and the justification of killing civilians as unavoidable.
15
Um, and this you know how, exactly? I'm sure that you're a great expert after reading a thin newspaper account but maybe you can get off your high horse for a moment. If this so offends you, then enlist and serve your country and show us all how to do it better.
As a sidelight, this article again demonstrates the utter folly of going into Afghanistan, slopping around, not completing the mission, not getting the criminals responsible for 9/11 and blundering into Iraq for no true reason, diverting our resources from Afghanistan prematurely.
9
The Seals are defending America while making America not worth defending.
14
You bemoan today's innocent victims? Cast back to the "Good War" - Nanking, Auschwitz, London, Dresden, Tokyo, Hiroshima, Nagasaki...
These SEALS perform triage in today's dissolving world... Tango Yankee..
These SEALS perform triage in today's dissolving world... Tango Yankee..
6
"The unit best known for killing Osama bin Laden has been converted into a global manhunting machine with limited outside oversight."
And the problem with that is...?
And the problem with that is...?
14
To paraphrase George Orwell: "Good people sleep peaceably in their beds at night because rough men stand ready to do violence in their name."
13
We Americans want our heroes to be unsoiled.
As Raymond Chandler says near the end of his essay “The Simple Art of Murder” (1950), "But down these mean streets a man must go who is not himself mean, who is neither tarnished nor afraid. … He is the hero, he is everything. He must be a complete man and a common man and yet an unusual man. He must be, to use a rather weathered phrase, a man of honor, by instinct, by inevitability, without thought of it, and certainly without saying it. He must be the best man in his world and a good enough man for any world." That is a high moral standard which is met more often in fiction than in reality.
Beyond the political uses to which the members of SEAL Team 6 have been put, this article seems to highlight the moral ambiguity with which we perceive members of the team. We would prefer our knights untarnished.
As Raymond Chandler says near the end of his essay “The Simple Art of Murder” (1950), "But down these mean streets a man must go who is not himself mean, who is neither tarnished nor afraid. … He is the hero, he is everything. He must be a complete man and a common man and yet an unusual man. He must be, to use a rather weathered phrase, a man of honor, by instinct, by inevitability, without thought of it, and certainly without saying it. He must be the best man in his world and a good enough man for any world." That is a high moral standard which is met more often in fiction than in reality.
Beyond the political uses to which the members of SEAL Team 6 have been put, this article seems to highlight the moral ambiguity with which we perceive members of the team. We would prefer our knights untarnished.
3
Ever know a SEAL ? I do, I have a friend that served one tour of duty after training in Vietnam. After leaving “country” because of the many that were lost in his team he asked to no longer to serve as a SEAL. He spent the rest of his 6 year enlistment on subs both as a diesel mechanic and as a diver. This man can do any thing and fix anything. He is now retired after a career as an oil field supervisor that worked around the world. In my old day job I worked as an engineer all over the world. Even at age 68 there is no one I would rather walk down a dark alley with that this man. They represent the best and the brightest of our country.
15
The Bush/Cheney thugs have soooo made the world an unsafe place for Americans. It's hard to calculate the number of draftees to Al Queda since Bush's folly. Not to mention the lies perpetrated on the American public. If it's accurate that Seal Team 6 has no oversight--you have to wonder at the impoverished thinking of their superiors. Just because they're clandestine ops--(and therefore may not have Congressional oversight) does not mean that they couldn't have rigorous oversight by the spooks that deploy them. No wars in my lifetime have made any sense, including the first Persian Gulf War. But having an elite team that functions without the heavy artillery of the American military does make sense in today's world where we are fighting factions, not countries. There's no option for diplomacy with these terrorists.
5
Please explain how you would defend yourself against a "lawless and remorseless enemy" who behead innocent people for sport?
1
Obama said Al Qaeda was neutralized and ISIS was the JV. When do you think he needs to accept responsibility for his actions or lack thereof.
1
Although peace and diplomatic means are always the preferred solutions to conflict, and I believe that war is very rarely the answer, the world we live in today is not compatible with purely diplomatic solutions to our problems. As I was reading this excellent article, one of the first things I thought about was how stringently pro-war and pro-military people would receive this investigation. I'm of the mindset that whenever war is portrayed, it isn't positive, simply because war itself is traditionally supposed to be negative. When some on the left jumped on "American Sniper" for being pro-war, I, being liberal myself, was puzzled- how could a film with a plot that clearly portrays the physical and emotional consequences of war possibly be a "pro-war film" with an intent to match?
The purpose of this investigation is not to degrade the military or to produce the "well it's a fact of life" response; rather the journalism here is designed to instill a belief in citizens that not everything can be kept hidden by the government. And that there must be some accountability shown, at the very least to avoid the perception of lawlessness.
The purpose of this investigation is not to degrade the military or to produce the "well it's a fact of life" response; rather the journalism here is designed to instill a belief in citizens that not everything can be kept hidden by the government. And that there must be some accountability shown, at the very least to avoid the perception of lawlessness.
2
You're very generous and extremely niave. This was a hit piece pure and simple and ST6 did not deserve it.
1
Those who reflexibly criricize these incredibly brave men should spend one day in the field with them. They are the bravest of the brave and must operate in total secrecy to be effective, and for self preservation. . By definition, any external oversight destroys the critical need for secrecy. I for one have no right whatsoever to question their tactics and motivation. All I know that at great personal sacrifice, they have rid the world of many whose goal is to viciously and wantonly kill innocent people, subjugate women, and violently impose their will on the rest of the world. Their missions avoid the use of massive ground troops, are precise, and minimize blood which would otherwise be shed on the battlefield.
The American public cannot nor should it ever micromanage our special forces. We can elect those whose policies we support, but in the end, too much interference will utterly obliterate their effectiveness. If we can't bear to trust highly trained forces like these to protect us, then how about just disbanding them. But them we would have no one to criticize from our air conditioned living rooms while they shed their blood on the battlefield.
My father was killed as a POW. If special forces like this had existed, my father might have been liberated. Of course, nowadays, more attention would be paid not to his mistreatment but to the mistreatment of his captors by his liberators.
The American public cannot nor should it ever micromanage our special forces. We can elect those whose policies we support, but in the end, too much interference will utterly obliterate their effectiveness. If we can't bear to trust highly trained forces like these to protect us, then how about just disbanding them. But them we would have no one to criticize from our air conditioned living rooms while they shed their blood on the battlefield.
My father was killed as a POW. If special forces like this had existed, my father might have been liberated. Of course, nowadays, more attention would be paid not to his mistreatment but to the mistreatment of his captors by his liberators.
17
Agree - we should be proud of these young men. While serving aboard the USS Raleigh, LPD1, we provided a base of operations for the then UDT team out of VA. They had been aboard an ancient 4 stack destroyet that was obsolete during WW2 - those things were provided to the British as part of the lend lease program developed by FDR. That old destroyet went black - no power and the UDT team aboard came to the Raleith. They loved the Raleigh - full AC and enough water to shower daily.
Their CO was Ltjg Robert Gormley who would command Seal Team 6. I remember his as a very quiet and dignified person who listened during wardroom meals and unlike the Marines - he knew how to fold his napkin and use the 1 handle USN coffee pots
Yes killing people is not a nice thing to do but for tangos/terrorists, this is the only way to stop their killing of our people and friends of the USA.
Look at how the ISIS terrorists are recruiting local US citizens - fortunately our intelligence gathering is finding these people - witness how the Boston police and FBI recently took our the ISIS terrorist.
Their CO was Ltjg Robert Gormley who would command Seal Team 6. I remember his as a very quiet and dignified person who listened during wardroom meals and unlike the Marines - he knew how to fold his napkin and use the 1 handle USN coffee pots
Yes killing people is not a nice thing to do but for tangos/terrorists, this is the only way to stop their killing of our people and friends of the USA.
Look at how the ISIS terrorists are recruiting local US citizens - fortunately our intelligence gathering is finding these people - witness how the Boston police and FBI recently took our the ISIS terrorist.
1
Thank you for your insight and for your service.
Unfortunately both you and I will undoubtedly become the subject of very vicious comments from those whose lives are protected by our brave special forces.
Unfortunately both you and I will undoubtedly become the subject of very vicious comments from those whose lives are protected by our brave special forces.
Oversight is needed—
But this is so much better than invasions and war.
But this is so much better than invasions and war.
5
An insightful, and crucial piece of journalism, necessary to regulate and account US power projection in the 21st century.
However- " America's new way of war, in which conflict is distinguished not by battlefield wins and losses, but by the relentless killing of suspected militants."
This is something that lays at the core of the logic of modern counterinsurgency. This clean slate - a nonobjective and deliberate projection of force without proper ethical and legal constraints only serves as a mirror of projection. Structurally weak and easily mimic-able. It offers no prompt or visible solution to hostility.
However- " America's new way of war, in which conflict is distinguished not by battlefield wins and losses, but by the relentless killing of suspected militants."
This is something that lays at the core of the logic of modern counterinsurgency. This clean slate - a nonobjective and deliberate projection of force without proper ethical and legal constraints only serves as a mirror of projection. Structurally weak and easily mimic-able. It offers no prompt or visible solution to hostility.
1
For the sake of the future of our country, for the sake of my children and their children, and their children, I hope our bad guys are always much worse than the other guys bad guys.
6
Be careful what you wish for. Other countries in other times have had their own "bad guys", and then their own "bad guys" turned against them and took over the country. Some even started concentration camps. And wore special uniforms. And became the "elite"..........
1
I wish the US would learn to jut stay out of these foreign affairs. What gives the US the right to go in to any of these countries around the world. ...and then we spend Billions defending against a terrorist who wants to pay us back for our attacks on their homeland! Unless some army shows up on our shores we should stay at home!
5
9-11?
1
Better their shores than ours!
1
I don't know what to think about Team 6.
Seems like, at least with this enemy, the old rules simply don't apply or at least this enemy doesn't and won't follow them. Civilians, women and children seem to be targets for radical Islam. Savagery - - and taping it for public display - - targeting journalists, the list goes on.
Not that the US should descend to these levels but new strategies are needed. Allowing Team 6, and others like it, wide latitude is what is needed. Otherwise, it seems like this enemy will advance. It must be stopped.
Without trying to be overly dramatic, in many of the Times stories about what IS is doing, one need only substitute Nazis for IS and it reads as if drawn from recent history, e.g., IS is expanding its territory or IS is targeting specific groups or IS is banning certain books, entertainment.
The world must take a stand and if it means using new, more mobile tactics such as Team 6, in combination with those in country, we must go for it.
Seems like, at least with this enemy, the old rules simply don't apply or at least this enemy doesn't and won't follow them. Civilians, women and children seem to be targets for radical Islam. Savagery - - and taping it for public display - - targeting journalists, the list goes on.
Not that the US should descend to these levels but new strategies are needed. Allowing Team 6, and others like it, wide latitude is what is needed. Otherwise, it seems like this enemy will advance. It must be stopped.
Without trying to be overly dramatic, in many of the Times stories about what IS is doing, one need only substitute Nazis for IS and it reads as if drawn from recent history, e.g., IS is expanding its territory or IS is targeting specific groups or IS is banning certain books, entertainment.
The world must take a stand and if it means using new, more mobile tactics such as Team 6, in combination with those in country, we must go for it.
2
"...the first thing that got my attention was this gunshot that went off from Wallakah's gun which unfortunately killed the first SEAL that walked in, Nick Checque".
An interesting and perhaps revealing use of the passive voice by the doctor; this, in a three-minute account otherwise devoid of such verbiage.
The gun went off by accident as opposed to, say, being aimed and fired by Wallakah at the head of the doctor's rescuer in a deliberate and intended homicidal act?
This is not for a moment to in anyway denigrate or dispute the doctor's account of what had to be the most harrowing, life-threatening experience any of us could ever suffer but rather to wonder at the possibility of a Stockholm Syndrome-like response by the doctor to the death of his young captor whom he elsewhere described as "a killing machine".
This last, a curious omission by the Times' editorial and video editors.
An interesting and perhaps revealing use of the passive voice by the doctor; this, in a three-minute account otherwise devoid of such verbiage.
The gun went off by accident as opposed to, say, being aimed and fired by Wallakah at the head of the doctor's rescuer in a deliberate and intended homicidal act?
This is not for a moment to in anyway denigrate or dispute the doctor's account of what had to be the most harrowing, life-threatening experience any of us could ever suffer but rather to wonder at the possibility of a Stockholm Syndrome-like response by the doctor to the death of his young captor whom he elsewhere described as "a killing machine".
This last, a curious omission by the Times' editorial and video editors.
5
Makes me wonder what happens when these guys are discharged into the civilian world. They could end-up as some of the nastiest criminals ever. They could do a bank job or armored car heist for laughs.....
6
...or they could lead quiet and normal american lives. sorry if that doesn't fit into your preconceived notions and hollywood stereotyped perspective.
5
I wonder sometimes if civilians ever think about the skills members of the military learned when they were on active duty. Do they realize that the men trained to disarm bombs also know how to build them?
In WW2 and Vietnam military working dogs (MWD) were euthanized or given to the locals (to the same effect) rather than being brought home. Should this be the fate of the really hard core operators? MWD;s are considered government property but now when their working days are over MWDs are adopted out to civilians or their handlers. Many MWDs are single purpose eg explosive sniffers, trackers and are not usually agressive etc. Some are, by nature, more vicious and are attack dogs and if they can't be suitably placed are euthanized, Dogs in the special forces like Seals receive training outside the regular MWD system and may have more than one skill. Recall Karo the dog on the Bin Laden mission who had to wear a muzzle when meeting Obama
It is impossible for most of us, including those of us who are veterans of military service, to comprehend what SEAL Team 6 and other special operations forces are asked to do on our behalf. However, it is clear to me that we need them; if I were unfortunate enough to become a captive of militants in Afghanistan or Somalia I know that my best chance of survival would be if the "operatives" of Team 6 were asked to put their lives at risk to rescue me and, unlike Dr. Joseph, I would not be troubled by the efficiency or "surgical" nature of the rescue.
312
My wife, an Italian national and one with overseas nonprofit aspirations (she works for the American Red Cross), has been wrestling with getting or not getting her American citizenship, thus having dual citizenship across U.S. and Italy.
She is leaning towards getting that U.S. citizenship. Why? Because a good friend of ours and two-time Peace Corps volunteer with service in Africa gave her this prescient advice: "It doesn't matter if you're Italian, American, or both when you are overseas on a humanitarian mission; when it does matter is when you need to be rescued while on an overseas humanitarian mission; America has the U.S. Navy SEALS, Italy not so much."
From a military veteran and Annapolis graduate, thank you to the Navy SEALS, Marine Corps Force Reconn, Air Force Combat Controllers, Army Green Berets, and the rest of the special operations force community. You are a strategic asset for the nation!
She is leaning towards getting that U.S. citizenship. Why? Because a good friend of ours and two-time Peace Corps volunteer with service in Africa gave her this prescient advice: "It doesn't matter if you're Italian, American, or both when you are overseas on a humanitarian mission; when it does matter is when you need to be rescued while on an overseas humanitarian mission; America has the U.S. Navy SEALS, Italy not so much."
From a military veteran and Annapolis graduate, thank you to the Navy SEALS, Marine Corps Force Reconn, Air Force Combat Controllers, Army Green Berets, and the rest of the special operations force community. You are a strategic asset for the nation!
2
On "our" behalf? Don't assume others approve of such methods. And as far as being rescued- don't do stupid things like visit strange lands where America is waging clandestine war. Stay home and when they "come here" defend yourself. They'll be at the disadvantage and you'll know the turf. Going "over" there to keep them from coming here is a clever ruse by the MICC. (military industrial,congressional complex)
The missions you describe and the need for them are admirable and acceptable to the American people I believe. However, assassinations are not us and never have been us and are just plain wrong.....and even acts of war if they were perpetrated on us.
I want to condemn the excesses of units like Seal Team 6, but if I were a hostage, I would hope they were going to show up to rescue me.
9
conflicted honestly is refreshing. thank you for your comment.
From 1972 till 1975 I worked as a bartender in Bad Ailbling Station, Bavaria, there were some military there but not that many and they all loved me they got me on the softball team, everybody invited me to parties I had a great life, they invited me to see Bad Tölz. Bad Aibling was the home of NSA and Bad Tôlz the home of the green berets in Europe, the first one I met at the bar in BA couldn't be military not really long hair but... a beard too, I asked him where he was from and he told me BT and unconventional warfare, I was always well appreciated by these people to the point of being invited to visit the USS Constellation in San Diego and the USS Jouett (electronic warfare). So I got a good understanding what it is to be in such outfits, what I read in this article fits my opinion and I respect these people and the government should get them in jail but take care of them because they served their country in the worst conditions.
2
Fern 501 --
Whoa! Hundreds of SEALS have served with honor and returned to the civilian world after their service. Anyone who suggests that they are unstable and need to be "jailed" but cared for is just outside of all logic.
SEALS -- including SEAL Team 6 -- are subject to careful oversight of their mental health. They train constantly when they are not on missions, which means that they are also under constant internal observation. They are not junkyard dogs to be destroyed when their usefulness has ended.
Whoa! Hundreds of SEALS have served with honor and returned to the civilian world after their service. Anyone who suggests that they are unstable and need to be "jailed" but cared for is just outside of all logic.
SEALS -- including SEAL Team 6 -- are subject to careful oversight of their mental health. They train constantly when they are not on missions, which means that they are also under constant internal observation. They are not junkyard dogs to be destroyed when their usefulness has ended.
Not only is it overdue to ask why there is such little oversight and accountability of our special forces such as ST 6, but also, a more basic, elephant in the living room question. The SEALs are sailors. As the Village People famously sang a generation ago, they are In the Navy. You know, boats that float? On the water? They were originally supposed to be Navy demolition frogmen. Flippers and oxygen tanks and such. Through Pentagon political maneuvering, since 9-11 they have supplanted the Army (ground troops) as the tip of our land war spear. Huh? Isn't that why we have an Army with Green Berets and such? Unintended and lethal consequences of such a fish out of water fighting force have been seen with, in one infamous example, the Lone Survivor debacle. In that incident which inspired the book and movie of the same name, freelancing SEALs doing their own thing in an Army combat area led to a disastrous breakdown of communication and coordination. This increasingly out of control sphere of special operations is in serious need of some adult supervision, just as the article suggests.
1
You are out of touch with the reality of the bad dudes out there that want to kill you an your way of life.
3
"Isn't this why we have an Army with Green Berets and such?"
No. The Green Berets have a different mission.
No. The Green Berets have a different mission.
1
I was a SEABEE. Not everyone in the Navy goes out on a ship. Most navy people never handle a firearm even if they spend 30 years in. I trained in infantry maneuvers and small arms. I also worked primarily as an electrician. I haven't the faintest idea what people do on ships.
2
I'm glad Delta, the SEALs & the SAS exist, and that there are people prepared to commit their lives to them.
But of course their needs to be oversight, any organisation needs oversight.
'Oppose the extremists, strengthen the moderates' should be our strategy. These people, together with the rest of the military have the first part covered.
The second part needs a bit of work though ...
But of course their needs to be oversight, any organisation needs oversight.
'Oppose the extremists, strengthen the moderates' should be our strategy. These people, together with the rest of the military have the first part covered.
The second part needs a bit of work though ...
2
What if Delta, etc., become "the extremists"?
Do they ever kill people who ought to be killed? How would they know? Sure, they kill people they are told to kill but that just makes them paid murderers.
9
And what does that make the president who orders these kills with SEALS or drones?
The quickest way to change SEAL Team 6 from elite to feckless is to add "outside oversight." The last thing we need is for grandstanding politicians to start sticking their nose into things and mucking it up. Leave it alone. We need these guys.
329
The best way to turn a group of soldiers into war-crime committing thugs is to stop holding them accountable.
9
Yep, just what a democracy needs a hit squad with no oversight. I cannot believe people are comfortable with this.
4
"The last thing we need is for grandstanding politicians...."
I would add to that sentence .... or self promoting journalists and newspapers "to start sticking their nose into things and mucking it up."
Must we always, in the name of free speech , handicap ourselves by telling our enemies what we do and how ? How does this "expose" make us safer. We won world war II because we kept some information secret.
Three cheers for Mazzetti et al. You got your project in above the fold. Good for you guys.
I would add to that sentence .... or self promoting journalists and newspapers "to start sticking their nose into things and mucking it up."
Must we always, in the name of free speech , handicap ourselves by telling our enemies what we do and how ? How does this "expose" make us safer. We won world war II because we kept some information secret.
Three cheers for Mazzetti et al. You got your project in above the fold. Good for you guys.
5
Nothing new in the article, the SEAL's as well as other military and non-military forces have been conducting these types of missions for years. Yes we need them to do this kind of work, yes innocents are murdered in the process...but it is at the direction of the unit leader following his orders, how the unit accomplishes their mission is not questioned. Should it be? Probably not. People like Kris Kyle we tout as a Hero, is he or was he just a normal serial killer that found an acceptable way to satisfy his desire to kill? The men in these units do believe they are above all laws, controls and are much more superior than non-members of their units. What happens when they leave and retire? No one really knows, do they present a risk to the general population....? some do. Members of these teams are killers, no justification no morals no controls....simple. Do we need them? Yes...are are they morally justified? No but bad guys don't play by the rules..so to be effective these teams need to feel free to kill and they do. I question if these guys do their work state side...
1
At least we have ONE government related group that is actually efficient and proficient in what they do.
God Bless every one of them.
God Bless every one of them.
19
Why do you think Russians overseas were (are?) seldom. if ever, kidnapped?
2
Exactly, the Russian Spetnaz are more ruthless than any Seal team, and that is exactly why NO Russians are kidnapped or killed. The Russian Spetnaz is quick, ruthless, and lethal. In order for the US Seals to engage in any action, it nearly takes an act of Congress.
1
I like those guys even more, now. Thanks, NYT.
12
The seeming lack of transparency and accountability re this elite corps of killers (and rescuers) in our undeclared war against Islamic militants, as reported in this fine piece of investigative journalism, is disturbing, to say the least. How can we reasonably expect the rest of the world, particularly its 1.7 billion Muslims, to respect America for any other reason than for the fear these largely unaccountable, secretive military forces engender?
It would not be a surprise if much of the Muslim world believes that America cares more about killing, but not caring about, Muslims and propping up Islamic regimes that kowtow to the USA. Our increasing penchant for secrecy, thanks in no small part to President Obama's policies and actions, means there can be no informed and meaningful debate over the true value--financial, political, legal and moral--of these elite forces and drones. Are their costs outweighed by the good they accomplish in our so-called war on terror? I certainly hope so. But after more than 13 years of fighting a war that appears to be widening, not contracting, isn't time to have a truly informed debate on the merits of continuing this war? If our open and secret military and CIA operations are generating more and angrier Muslim soldiers, terrorists and sympathetic supporters than our guys are killing, maybe the time has come to step back and figure out a new and better strategy. Our stubborn persistence seems pathological.
It would not be a surprise if much of the Muslim world believes that America cares more about killing, but not caring about, Muslims and propping up Islamic regimes that kowtow to the USA. Our increasing penchant for secrecy, thanks in no small part to President Obama's policies and actions, means there can be no informed and meaningful debate over the true value--financial, political, legal and moral--of these elite forces and drones. Are their costs outweighed by the good they accomplish in our so-called war on terror? I certainly hope so. But after more than 13 years of fighting a war that appears to be widening, not contracting, isn't time to have a truly informed debate on the merits of continuing this war? If our open and secret military and CIA operations are generating more and angrier Muslim soldiers, terrorists and sympathetic supporters than our guys are killing, maybe the time has come to step back and figure out a new and better strategy. Our stubborn persistence seems pathological.
7
I read many comments about the SEALs being "men". A man wouldn't kill another man and not own up to it for all to see, each and every time.
1
Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain - and most fools do.
- Benjamin Franklin
- Benjamin Franklin
5
Sadly, the New York Times focused only on negative, disparaging, and callous stories about our nations finest warriors who, night after night, face our enemies while we cozy up on our couches to watch the NBA Finals,far from danger.
Remember, these brave men are doing only what we ask, continually ordered into combat by the people we elect to office. If you don't like the way the SEALs operate, vote out the decision makers. Otherwise, say a silent prayer that we have such fine men protecting our way of life.
Remember, these brave men are doing only what we ask, continually ordered into combat by the people we elect to office. If you don't like the way the SEALs operate, vote out the decision makers. Otherwise, say a silent prayer that we have such fine men protecting our way of life.
18
Americans sleep tight in their beds knowing that elite killing squads of brave, GI Joe lookalikes are spread throughout the world doing the country's dirty work. At home they're depicted as heroes either handing out toys and candy to smiling, worshipful little brown children or handing out death and destruction to the bad, evil fathers and mothers of those same brown children. And oddly enough, wherever these heroes go there's inevitably a dark brown fluid found in quantity miles under the ground. Go figure.
Somehow Christian America worships these guys in spite of Jesus' admonitions about fear and killing. Himmler must be smiling in approval from the dark nether recesses of Hell, only wishing that his Schutzstaffel forces might have also enjoyed invincible worldwide deployment. America's dualist, black-and-white philosophy of "yer either fer us or agin us" is alive and well, despite the revelation of lies and propaganda from the Bush/Cheney criminal gang.
Those muscular arms and chests! Those jutting jaws! Those tattoos! That strength and single-mindedness of purpose! USA! USA! USA!
Somehow Christian America worships these guys in spite of Jesus' admonitions about fear and killing. Himmler must be smiling in approval from the dark nether recesses of Hell, only wishing that his Schutzstaffel forces might have also enjoyed invincible worldwide deployment. America's dualist, black-and-white philosophy of "yer either fer us or agin us" is alive and well, despite the revelation of lies and propaganda from the Bush/Cheney criminal gang.
Those muscular arms and chests! Those jutting jaws! Those tattoos! That strength and single-mindedness of purpose! USA! USA! USA!
8
The article states: "That role reflects America’s new way of war, in which conflict is distinguished not by battlefield wins and losses, but by the relentless killing of suspected militants."
There was a time when the United States announced policy was to condemn countries that engaged in ". . . the relentless killing of suspected militants."
The principle now seems to be: "If you believe your side to be 'in the right' and you suspect that someone is on the other side, then you are justified to egange in "relenentless killing", at least if it is on foreign soil.
What is left as to which we have, in an objective sense, maintaiined the high ground? In the long run, what price will we pay for this? Is anyone looking at the long term about anything, when it comes to fundamental principles and objectives?
There was a time when the United States announced policy was to condemn countries that engaged in ". . . the relentless killing of suspected militants."
The principle now seems to be: "If you believe your side to be 'in the right' and you suspect that someone is on the other side, then you are justified to egange in "relenentless killing", at least if it is on foreign soil.
What is left as to which we have, in an objective sense, maintaiined the high ground? In the long run, what price will we pay for this? Is anyone looking at the long term about anything, when it comes to fundamental principles and objectives?
5
Such an amazing story. It exposes another thing the US government does not want its citizens to know about. The unit carried out America’s dirtiest work around the world, showcasing what happens when elected lawmakers avert their gaze in an attempt to secure plausible deniability on the grandest scale.
4
One profound unintended consequence of glorifying special operators is that civilian police forces fantasize about similar behavior, weapons and gadgets. Do we really need so many SWAT teams - often with surprising 6 figure salaries - marauding around the US?
385
Yes, we do.
Most of the NYPD I know just want to come home in one piece at the end of their shift to their loved ones.
No, we do not!
I always get an uneasy feeling when I read about these commandoes and what they do for a living.
When they make a mistake and kill innocent civilians, they are transferred to another unit.
When the Blackwater guards murdered civilians in Nisour Square they got long long prison sentences, which they deserved.
If you kill innocent civilians you should pay the price, no matter what your nationality is.
When they make a mistake and kill innocent civilians, they are transferred to another unit.
When the Blackwater guards murdered civilians in Nisour Square they got long long prison sentences, which they deserved.
If you kill innocent civilians you should pay the price, no matter what your nationality is.
105
You've obviously never been in combat and have absolutely no clue of what you speak. Congratulations.
3
Wars equal killing innocent civilians. See Robert McNamara and the Fog of War.
1
Spoken like a thrall safe in the borders of Finland.
1
Exactly what we need in time of war. Or, perhaps, the NYTimes forgot 9/11 and the many planned attacks against the USA mainland and interests abroad?
Again, everyone is against the death penalty until they rape your child. Then, you not only want justice, you want retribution.
Go Seal Team 6!
Again, everyone is against the death penalty until they rape your child. Then, you not only want justice, you want retribution.
Go Seal Team 6!
8
Enough endless war. We'd be better off as a nation admired again, rather than just feared.
17
They started it by flying airplanes into our buildings.
1
If any other country would try this we would call them barbaric and terrorist. Assassinations by governments are non productive. Did the killing of Osama solve the problem of Terrorism? Did the killing of Gaddafi, tacitly approved by us, brought peace to Libya? Did the mock trial and killing of Saddam stopped the turmoil in Iraq? Money and lives wasted in this naive and childish pursuit like the torture of the prisoners.
16
History tells us those who would fly the flag of an Islamic Caliphate have been at war with their fellow muslims, and much of the non-muslim world for over a thousand years.
Isn't it great to be able to pontificate in a free society, protected by the most powerful military might the world has ever known?
Isn't it great to be able to pontificate in a free society, protected by the most powerful military might the world has ever known?
1
Did anyone think killing Osama Bin Laden would solve the problem of terrorism? Perhaps the next Osama-clone will think twice about a life spent on the run knowing that you won't escape justice no matter what rock you hide under.
1
"Isn't it great to be able to pontificate in a free society, protected by the most powerful military might the world has ever known?"
Our society is free because We The People made it so, not because of some powerful military. The American Revolution was the least of it. Civilians built this country, diplomats protected it in its infancy, and farmers, inventors, and industrialists made it thrive.
Our society is free because We The People made it so, not because of some powerful military. The American Revolution was the least of it. Civilians built this country, diplomats protected it in its infancy, and farmers, inventors, and industrialists made it thrive.
“War is not this pretty thing that the United States has come to believe it to be.” The US is full of people (including war veterans, grandparents, historians, young and old protestors, journalists and writers, parents, many religious leaders, and some politicians) who do not believe war is pretty.
SEAL Team 6 ordered copies of weapons that they saw in a movie, for their personal use in combat. Young people play fantasy video games developed with funding and assistance from the Pentagon and the Armed Forces. The Army lends equipment for glorified battle scenes in movies. Recruiters for the Marines make friends with young men by playing war games with them over the Internet. A few SEALSs gave classified info for use in one video game, and others openly use the image associated with the name to make money by offering "combat training" in weapons for civilians and off-duty law officers (with no military ethics training).
It is disingenuous to say that the US has come to believe in pretty war when the war department itself is working to create this false image.
SEAL Team 6 ordered copies of weapons that they saw in a movie, for their personal use in combat. Young people play fantasy video games developed with funding and assistance from the Pentagon and the Armed Forces. The Army lends equipment for glorified battle scenes in movies. Recruiters for the Marines make friends with young men by playing war games with them over the Internet. A few SEALSs gave classified info for use in one video game, and others openly use the image associated with the name to make money by offering "combat training" in weapons for civilians and off-duty law officers (with no military ethics training).
It is disingenuous to say that the US has come to believe in pretty war when the war department itself is working to create this false image.
12
One has to respect the devotion to our country's well being that is indicated by the personnel of Team 6 and other SEAL units. At the same time one has to wonder how we can keep from dealing in pure savagery that somehow seems far removed from the image of the average GI that we have been accustomed to.
The lesson seems to be that a hostile world breeds reactive hostility, and we all go down the slippery slope together into a dog eat dog environment decorated with the slogans and justifications that we deem appropriate. What happened to religious leadership and brotherhood. It, too, seems to have disappeared down the slippery slope. Let us hope there is a ladder somewhere that can lead us out of the brutality all around us and back to dealing with our people problems through diplomacy.
The lesson seems to be that a hostile world breeds reactive hostility, and we all go down the slippery slope together into a dog eat dog environment decorated with the slogans and justifications that we deem appropriate. What happened to religious leadership and brotherhood. It, too, seems to have disappeared down the slippery slope. Let us hope there is a ladder somewhere that can lead us out of the brutality all around us and back to dealing with our people problems through diplomacy.
4
I don't believe the Seals act from patriotism. I believe they have seen too many movies, and grown addicted to sadism.
1
May be our lying leaders in government and business should tell us the truth, that the entire use of the terrorist force, seal teams and delta, are used for the benefit of the international corporation, including arms and oil. Our interventions with these forces is not about protecting the average american citizen.
Don't these forces make you nervous, as they operate in violation of all civilized conventions of war? What is to stop there use here?
us army 1969-1971
Don't these forces make you nervous, as they operate in violation of all civilized conventions of war? What is to stop there use here?
us army 1969-1971
"Sadism" would be marching a bunch of hand tied prisoners out beheading them and the posting it for all the world to see.
So... Seal Team 6 is a very disciplined group of trained killers who will do their commander's bidding. If the commander says every male should be killed, they will kill every male. They are able to inflict violence and destruction, perform amazing feats of battle and rescue, and kill, kill, kill...
Undoubtedly, Seal Team 6 members are the epitome of bravery and athletic talent. But the fact is, when units like this come under the command of people like Cheney and Rumsfeld, they will do us a lot more harm in the long run than good. Even Obama has been a terrible disappointment in this regard, with all his droning and killing of innocents, and in my opinion should simply return the Nobel Peace prize.
It is not like these teams are operating here in the US, killing the bad guys and defending citizens. They are part of an ideological battle being waged in far away shores, killing people most of whom don't pose immediate threats, and alienating people by the thousands, creating new enemies...
I see many of the letters below say that in this world as it is today, we need the Seal Team 6; but it is a world we created, and now with teams like this, we perpetuate it. Will we ever have a world where we do not need a Seal Team 6?
Undoubtedly, Seal Team 6 members are the epitome of bravery and athletic talent. But the fact is, when units like this come under the command of people like Cheney and Rumsfeld, they will do us a lot more harm in the long run than good. Even Obama has been a terrible disappointment in this regard, with all his droning and killing of innocents, and in my opinion should simply return the Nobel Peace prize.
It is not like these teams are operating here in the US, killing the bad guys and defending citizens. They are part of an ideological battle being waged in far away shores, killing people most of whom don't pose immediate threats, and alienating people by the thousands, creating new enemies...
I see many of the letters below say that in this world as it is today, we need the Seal Team 6; but it is a world we created, and now with teams like this, we perpetuate it. Will we ever have a world where we do not need a Seal Team 6?
16
My concern for these guys is what happens when they are no longer in the military. Do they get jobs in law enforcement? If so, are they able to restrain themselves during an arrest? I do not think our government provides the necessary psychological therapy when they leave the military. I was taught to kill when I was in the Army 60 years ago. That is what soldiers do in a war. There is no doubt in my mind that if it is him or me, I would not hesitate to pull the trigger. If I still have this mind set after 60 years, what do you think a former SEAL would do?
I am not against SEALS and feel that they are a necessary part of our military. I am just trying to put things in the proper perspective for those of you who have never served in the military.
I am not against SEALS and feel that they are a necessary part of our military. I am just trying to put things in the proper perspective for those of you who have never served in the military.
4
I am very happy to know that Seal Team 6 and others are out there for me, my family, and my country. I do not want to know what they do or when they do it. I do not want the media embedded with them and following them around. It allows me to sleep better at night knowing we have those who will step up and do this most difficult job at great personal sacrifice. My support and thanks go out to them everywhere.
15
I do not want to know what they do, but I love that they do it. Whatever it is. Which I do not know. But I am so grateful for these unknown acts. I am willing to believe that they are great acts of courage, directed by leaders whose only interests are to do that which keeps my country great, as it always has been.
They do what is necessary to keep us safe, and we should be enormously grateful. They are heroes.
15
they will kill you too if they perceive you as a threat. you really think killing barefoot people in the mideast armed with an ak 47 that have a range less than 400 yards are threats to our nazi germany inspired American homeland? These wars exist only to make money for international corporation including oil and arms dealers. Our country would be safer if we spent half the funds we spend on those wars here at home.
us army 1969-1971
us army 1969-1971
2
JTK, you may call them heroes when they commit war crimes; but I and
others in the U.S. and around the world certainly do NOT!
others in the U.S. and around the world certainly do NOT!
1
Unfortunately war is often difficult, dangerous and no holds barred. And sometimes things need to be done that require darkness of the sky and darkness of the mind. Not everything can or should be known and revealed.
In the end it all boils down to who wins. That doesn't mean no oversight but you simply cannot micromanage warfare particularly special ops if you want any chance of winning.
In the end it all boils down to who wins. That doesn't mean no oversight but you simply cannot micromanage warfare particularly special ops if you want any chance of winning.
3
What stands above the pro and con comments about the covert activities of SEAL Team 6 is the fact that in this country, a lot more of what the U.S. version of such outfits do comes to light compared with other countries that undoubtedly do the same thing, albeit with less skill.
2
Not everyone needs to know everything, not even the NYT staff and readers, not even Mr. Snowden.
One certainly wonders whether these little prying missions are intended to further restrict the options available to the US to prosecute this war. It is very likely that the answer is yes and that attempts will continue to be made to remove personnel, tools and techniques and add multiple approval processes to further hinder US forces.
One certainly wonders whether these little prying missions are intended to further restrict the options available to the US to prosecute this war. It is very likely that the answer is yes and that attempts will continue to be made to remove personnel, tools and techniques and add multiple approval processes to further hinder US forces.
3
The Draft Lottery destroyed us and destroyed our ability to support or oppose our country going to war. We have created a three tiered society, those that ignore service, those that serve, and a third group that exploit the second with the passive approval of the first.
The "quiet killings and blurred lines" of Seal Team 6 is just one outcome. So are the endless wars and the indecision that underlies them.
As our country's infrastructure continues to disintegrate and our relationships around the world sour, we stand idly by.
What a nightmare.
The "quiet killings and blurred lines" of Seal Team 6 is just one outcome. So are the endless wars and the indecision that underlies them.
As our country's infrastructure continues to disintegrate and our relationships around the world sour, we stand idly by.
What a nightmare.
12
Definitely, this is the future/present state of warfare. Eradicating the hideous cancer has evolved from macro to micro. These warriors define the will to live. Not many possess the will to protect, preserve the West. Not many alive appreciate what is required to survive.
3
So you ignore the rights of the innocents they are killing based on bad intelligence, and their own ignorance of the situation. Maybe we should spend these dollars at home on education, infra structure and health care. In my view that would make us safer.
us army 1969-1971
us army 1969-1971
2
The trembly descriptions of terrorists and the wicked deeds they do make it sound as though the nation has never faced trouble before, and now we must accede to assassination and roaming death squads (and torture? well, whatever) so that this unheard-of wickedness may be combatted. Not stopped, no, killing people around the world with scant oversight or discrimination won't do that. But when more "terrorists" are made by these acts, we can send more death squads, no doubt. As if we never faced whole nations of enemies, as if world wars had never been fought, as if a Civil War on our own ground (gasp) had not been fought. What a nation of cowards, unprincipled cowards, we seem to have become.
4
Quite right. The country behaves as if it were in greater danger than when The Soviet Union had thousands of nukes pointed in our direction.
Concerning the perceived threat of Islamism, the U.S. has crossed over into absolute paranoia.
Concerning the perceived threat of Islamism, the U.S. has crossed over into absolute paranoia.
2
So sending teams of extraordinarily highly trained and competent soldiers to eliminate "high value" terrorists, is more "unprincipled" than dropping explosives by the thousands of tons, not to mention a couple of nuclear weapons, on the citizens of regimes we are at war with? I don't quite see it that way.
"That role reflects America’s new way of war, in which conflict is distinguished not by battlefield wins and losses, but by the relentless killing of suspected militants."
Sadly, when the Chinese unleash a million-man army into the next conflict, America will have to re-learn conventional warfare.
Sadly, when the Chinese unleash a million-man army into the next conflict, America will have to re-learn conventional warfare.
1
The US has already lost the materiel production capacity race with China.
This is an excellent story which I will go back and read again in detail. Much as I admire and respect the courage and patriotism of Seal Team 6, its existence and activities are also very concerning. First, I guess guys who are willing to do this kind of stuff, of necessity, probably tend to be cocksure, arrogant, resistant to authority and willing to bend the rules. They require strict oversight. It may also have a corrosive effect on our observance of the rule of law. Why arrest and charge some suspected terrorist if you can send in the Seals to bump him off? This milirary unit had better never be deployed in the United States.
5
you talk about "the rule of law" but your comments betray your ignorance of the posse pomitatus act (18 u.s.c. 1385) as well as the disciplined training of the members of this and similar units.
you also show your ignorance in comments about cocksuredness, arrogance, resistance to authority, and a willingness to bend the rules. you've clearly watched too many movies. the members of this and similar units are amongst the most disciplined and professional members in the u.s. military. individuals with the characteristics you mention are weeded out during the selection process.
you also show your ignorance in comments about cocksuredness, arrogance, resistance to authority, and a willingness to bend the rules. you've clearly watched too many movies. the members of this and similar units are amongst the most disciplined and professional members in the u.s. military. individuals with the characteristics you mention are weeded out during the selection process.
2
I agree with your comments about the corrosive effect on the rule of law [which our current leaders for the past 35 years seem to care little].
us army 1969-1971
us army 1969-1971
By using such methods to defeat our enemies we condone that it can also be used with impunity by our enemies, that our leaders can be their targets. I think such operations are against the rules of war and Geneva conventions.
8
George W. Bush abrogated the Geneva Conventions when he authorized and advocated torture, rendition and water boarding. Those very things will settle on the shoulders of any future American GI POWs, since we no longer believe in them. You have already seen how ISIS treats prisoners, including Americans.
2
Keep in mind that Special Operations units are typically more favored by Democrats than Republicans, because the operations are conducted in secret. Republicans appeal to their constituents when they deploy troops or openly support the military, but Democrats are heavily criticized when they do so. JFK awarded the green beret to the Army Special Forces (aka The Green Berets). Obama has significantly expanded funding and deployments for these units. The President gets the best information of anyone in the world about what is going on in it, and this allows him to use force where he desires without being open to public scrutiny.
2
Right. You can't even read this article without trying to find out how it's good for democrats? You sir, should "keep in mind" that a large portion of voting democrats think we should abandon having a military at all. Find me one single person who's a conservative that is naive enough to think that.
1
From this article, I conclude that members of SEAL Team 6 are brave and determined individuals, trained to operate legally in the best interests of the US. Mistakes made with less than a second available for deliberation have been and will continue to be an unavoidable part of military conflict. Excesses and inappropriate actions, such as deliberate retribution and murder, appear subject to critical examination by superior officers. This does not appear the same as past legitimization of torture with legal briefs and disinformation from our nation's highest offices. Bad judgement is still subject to penalties and murder is still illegal.
Investigative reporting such as this article is critical for keeping military and civilian personnel, including those responsible for examining questionable action, accountable. I do not think complete transparency of military action is in our best interest, but I applaud the Times for keeping the risks of inappropriate and/or illegal action before those who might intentionally commit crimes or cover them up. Equally important, I applaud and remain very grateful, in these scary and complex times, that SEAL Team 6 is active and our my side.
Investigative reporting such as this article is critical for keeping military and civilian personnel, including those responsible for examining questionable action, accountable. I do not think complete transparency of military action is in our best interest, but I applaud the Times for keeping the risks of inappropriate and/or illegal action before those who might intentionally commit crimes or cover them up. Equally important, I applaud and remain very grateful, in these scary and complex times, that SEAL Team 6 is active and our my side.
210
Well spoken. Avoids hysteria and is fair to reporters, civilian government, and elite operatives alike.
3
Don't you worry about the time the seal/delta force comes for you? That is the ultimate outcome of this type of program, which is producing recruits faster than seal/delta can kill them. Killing 100s of not 1000s of collateral damage civilians is not the way to calm the situation down. This strategy was tried by America and defeated in Viet Nam.
History is replete with examples that outsiders killing civilians does not win the hearts or the minds of civilians who remain alive, yet our government pursues this course to protect international business.
us army 1969-1971
History is replete with examples that outsiders killing civilians does not win the hearts or the minds of civilians who remain alive, yet our government pursues this course to protect international business.
us army 1969-1971
1
More rah rah for failed programs. Right now they are on your side, but what about tomorrow when they are deployed here in disregard of our own laws?
us army 1969-1971
us army 1969-1971
The world is both complicated and a dirty place to be. Someone has to pick up after "dog", eh? That is what Seal Team 6 does. It cleans up after the messes the politicians create and make. Just like we cannot do without the refuse collection guys, we cannot do without the Seal Team.
36
I disagree with your thesis. In my view seal/delta are escalating the "messes" to which you refer. Once they expanded beyond hostage rescue, their presence stirs up your "messes." They are not in the business of peace. Due process and our constitution are not their care.
us army 1069-1971
us army 1069-1971
3
In my town, we pick up after our own dogs. Which is why I think we need to restart the draft and make sure no one can get a deferment.
These SEALs are vital to our national security and interests and I personally feel safer for their valor and courage.
That said, I'm really hoping that this article is meant as some sort of disinformation to intimidate and mislead those miscreants who would like to squash the US. Otherwise, I cannot understand why we would want to put so much classified information out to the public.
That said, I'm really hoping that this article is meant as some sort of disinformation to intimidate and mislead those miscreants who would like to squash the US. Otherwise, I cannot understand why we would want to put so much classified information out to the public.
184
"These SEALs are vital to our national security and interests..."
Yet, somehow, this nation got along just fine without them for more than two centuries.
Yet, somehow, this nation got along just fine without them for more than two centuries.
3
The members of Seal team 6 are not warriors, they are assassins. They refuse to call themselves warriors but "operators" who place themselves outside the rules of warfare. We need to reign them in and change their culture. They are military soldiers so should be required to not only call themselves soldiers but must be supervised and controlled like soldiers.
What classified information was divulged? How would you personally know if any classified information was divulged?
Here's a relevant quote from Richard Grenier: "When the country is in danger, the military’s mission is to wreak destruction upon the enemy. It’s a harsh and bloody business, but that’s what the military’s for. As George Orwell pointed out, people sleep peacefully in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."
33
What I read in your comment is that rule breaking and uncivilized behavior is the example all should follow, rules are just words on paper.
The use of these specialized assassination units was abject failure in Viet Nam. All that happens is the entire population comes to hate America and Americans. Read some books that analyze these issues such as Nick Turse's Kill Everything That Moves.
us army 1969-1971
The use of these specialized assassination units was abject failure in Viet Nam. All that happens is the entire population comes to hate America and Americans. Read some books that analyze these issues such as Nick Turse's Kill Everything That Moves.
us army 1969-1971
War is not a video game.
Too many Americans have lost sight of that elemental fact.
Good and bad people get killed. So it has always been and so it will always be as long as there are wars.
Too many Americans have lost sight of that elemental fact.
Good and bad people get killed. So it has always been and so it will always be as long as there are wars.
32
So why are we there? The profit of big business. Targeted assassination is not working, just creating more people Americans call terrorist. I disagree entirely with your conclusions.
us army 1969-1971
us army 1969-1971
1
We are at war. It's an asymmetrical war. These men are our best hope. Go get'em SEAL Team 6!
36
I disagree. We are busy creating more enemies than ever. Check the outcome in Viet Nam where we engaged in this very activity over 20 years, especially Operation Phoenix and our bombings. You do not win over hearts and minds when you are killing civilians and blowing up their homes.
us army 1969-1971
us army 1969-1971
1
The damage to the bodies and brains of these people is mentioned, but not one word about the damage to their souls. Killing is not a profession, it is often a sin of terrible consequences. The soldier lives with all of that forever. It is why the idea of Shell Shock, Battle Fatigue, Operational Exhaustion and more has morphed into today's PTSD. God did not create us to be killers, that is a role we humans chose for ourselves. The U.S. Military views its combat operators as they do a Jeep, or a Truck, something to use up, and replace when destroyed. The VA debacles of the last 20 years have only demonstrated the truth of what I just said. May God have Mercy on these poor souls.
43
Cain slew Abel. The sentence missing from your little essay is this, "Speaking as one who served in the uniform of my country and went into harm's way repeatedly and did what was expected of me and that which I expected of myself...." I know about me. I'm going to guess about you.
1
Can we assume that SEAL Team 6 is covered under the Posse Comitatus Act? Are there explicit safeguards to prevent military special ops from engaging on US soil?
Today we have NSA surveillance, drone technology, and now a small army of covert special ops. It seems like we are acquiring all the tools to implement a police state; someone just needs to flip the switch to turn them on the American people. All it would take is major natural disaster or attack against America to motivate people to flip that switch.
Today we have NSA surveillance, drone technology, and now a small army of covert special ops. It seems like we are acquiring all the tools to implement a police state; someone just needs to flip the switch to turn them on the American people. All it would take is major natural disaster or attack against America to motivate people to flip that switch.
25
Be sure to keep your aluminim foil hat on -- and stay away from Area 52.
1
as a military unit the seals and similar organizations all fall under posse comitatus
2
My thoughts on this topic are mixed. On the one hand it is good that we have a group which can rescue hostages from terrorists and pirates. And they seem to function pretty well in this regard.
When they fly into Iraq, Afghanistan, or other counties and kill designated people (the targeted killings) the result is less clear. For one thing, we pride ourselves on being a nation of laws where everyone -- including the President, police, district attorneys, Congress -- is supposed to follow and be subject to the law. I don't think that there is a law which gives the President the authority to designate a particular person as a terrorist (or otherwise dangerous person) and then to tell the SEALs to go kill that person. Another problem with targeted killing is that the people sent to do the killing often get the wrong person or kill a lot of innocent bystanders. This activity, like many CIA and other covert operations down through the years, creates more enemies and does more harm than good.
When they fly into Iraq, Afghanistan, or other counties and kill designated people (the targeted killings) the result is less clear. For one thing, we pride ourselves on being a nation of laws where everyone -- including the President, police, district attorneys, Congress -- is supposed to follow and be subject to the law. I don't think that there is a law which gives the President the authority to designate a particular person as a terrorist (or otherwise dangerous person) and then to tell the SEALs to go kill that person. Another problem with targeted killing is that the people sent to do the killing often get the wrong person or kill a lot of innocent bystanders. This activity, like many CIA and other covert operations down through the years, creates more enemies and does more harm than good.
12
I'm sure amoung these elite warriors are some pretty smart people who can answerr many defense and intelligence questions. Maybe they can answer a few of mine, what is the end game, what is victory?
Is it the smell of napalm in the morining, all the billions of muslims dead, or is it an American Global Hegemony?
With a degree in Political Science and History I like to think I have something to offer the Navy's elite units. Right now based on the limited information availible, all they're doing is creating more terrorists for future American Warriors to fight, maybe that's victory a self-prepuating cycle of job justification.
Is it the smell of napalm in the morining, all the billions of muslims dead, or is it an American Global Hegemony?
With a degree in Political Science and History I like to think I have something to offer the Navy's elite units. Right now based on the limited information availible, all they're doing is creating more terrorists for future American Warriors to fight, maybe that's victory a self-prepuating cycle of job justification.
19
The Seals are brave people protecting their fellow Americans and their allies from enemies identified by their commanders. Victory is success as defined by their mission. The fact that battlefield wins and losses do not define this current war is not America's choice: its enemies have chosen to fight this way and there is no option but to accept the challenge. (Unless we do nothing of substance to combat the proven and gestating terrorist threats to Americans and others with similar values, but most won't agree with that course, in my opinion).
Anyway, what end game was known in 1941 when America embarked on war with Japan and Germany? Only in retrospect does it all seem neatly pre-ordained, but of course it wasn't. Had Japan or (especially) Germany devised a devastating weapon similar to the nuclear bomb, possibly one based on bacteriological warfare, who knows what course the war would have taken? No one can guarantee how a war will end or when or how. That is why Churchill promised the British blood, sweat and tears at the outset of its contest with fascism.
Anyway, what end game was known in 1941 when America embarked on war with Japan and Germany? Only in retrospect does it all seem neatly pre-ordained, but of course it wasn't. Had Japan or (especially) Germany devised a devastating weapon similar to the nuclear bomb, possibly one based on bacteriological warfare, who knows what course the war would have taken? No one can guarantee how a war will end or when or how. That is why Churchill promised the British blood, sweat and tears at the outset of its contest with fascism.
2
Had we accepted your premise that killing enemies just creates more enemies during world war II, we would now be awash in Nazis and imperialistic Japanese. Thank goodness that type of thinking did not hold sway then, nor should it now. Like a cancer, the only way to deal with an enemy whose every waking thought is about how to kill you is to kill them first. We are fortunate to have operators such as the Seals and Delta force keeping us safe.
2
With your education, you should realize that American warriors, not even elite warriors, get to plan the 'end game' nor declare victory.
This is in the hands of politicians, or, as the Seals might say, 'above their pay grade'.
This is in the hands of politicians, or, as the Seals might say, 'above their pay grade'.
Despise evil and ungodliness, but not men of ungodliness or evil. These, understand. Have no shame in being kindly and gentle but if the time comes in the time of your life to kill, kill and have no regret.
William Saroyan
William Saroyan
9
Excellent and balanced story and an important one. War is never tidy or clean.
7
When you have money to spend and want very much to win, using "any means necessary" becomes sexy and popular... a truly great civilization knows that extrajudicial killings such as the Osama Bin Laden affair only throw fuel on the fire of hatred. Where's the big payoffs from killing Saddam and QuadaffI??? The best results come from the patient insistence on the rule of law... That's the basis of our Constitution and really the only hope for a future with justice and peace... otherwise the world becomes just one really big tough neighborhood ruled by ruthless well armed gangs taking orders fom their respective world leaders... Is that where we want to live??
76
"The best results come from the patient insistence on the rule of law..."
Is that so. Do you think in 1940 the allies should have set up an international court and waited for Hitler to turn himself in?
Is that so. Do you think in 1940 the allies should have set up an international court and waited for Hitler to turn himself in?
2
I recall Neville saying something very similar in 1938... but I guess the world is a much nicer place now than it was then.
2
it may noy be where we want to live, but it is where we live. has it ever been different, at any pint in history? unless you consider pre agricultural societies and small groups of hunter gatherers.
Great reporting by the New York Times.
The SEAL Teams are an inspiration and the apotheosis of courage and dedication in our cynical age.
It is hoped that the New York Times will have more solid reporting like this piece from here forward.
The SEAL Teams are an inspiration and the apotheosis of courage and dedication in our cynical age.
It is hoped that the New York Times will have more solid reporting like this piece from here forward.
12
Did you read the complete story? These guys are hardly "the apotheosis of courage and dedication" but overzealous commandos who have seen too many Rambo movies. They just like to kill.
1
“If you want these forces to do things that occasionally bend the rules of international law,” said James G. Stavridis, a retired admiral and former Supreme Allied Commander at NATO, referring to going into undeclared war zones, “you certainly don’t want that out in public.” Team 6, he added, “should continue to operate in the shadows.”
---------------------
But do we want our troops to "bend" the rules of international law? I know I don't. I live in a very conservative area, with many Republicans, and lately I have been surprised to hear many of them say, "We're spending all this money fighting foreign wars. I say we need to bring that money home."
The Seals are a perfect example of the huge disconnect between Washington DC and the rest of America. Americans are tired of funding the world's policemen. And it only adds to the fatigue to read stories about "rescue missions" where the captors are usually killed, war crimes are routine, and oversight is lax.
These men and women are killing in OUR name. We all have the blood they've spilled on our hands. Or maybe I should say we all have oil on our hands. Because, after all, that's why we really are involved in the Middle East quagmire. To protect oil company's interests.
So the next time you fill up, thank a Seal. He's killed for your tank of gas. Oil for human lives. Are they equal?
---------------------
But do we want our troops to "bend" the rules of international law? I know I don't. I live in a very conservative area, with many Republicans, and lately I have been surprised to hear many of them say, "We're spending all this money fighting foreign wars. I say we need to bring that money home."
The Seals are a perfect example of the huge disconnect between Washington DC and the rest of America. Americans are tired of funding the world's policemen. And it only adds to the fatigue to read stories about "rescue missions" where the captors are usually killed, war crimes are routine, and oversight is lax.
These men and women are killing in OUR name. We all have the blood they've spilled on our hands. Or maybe I should say we all have oil on our hands. Because, after all, that's why we really are involved in the Middle East quagmire. To protect oil company's interests.
So the next time you fill up, thank a Seal. He's killed for your tank of gas. Oil for human lives. Are they equal?
38
Well said, E. Nowak. And speaking of bad consequences of "rescue missions,"
too often one or more hostages are killed in the attempt -- sometimes by
their attempted rescuers.
too often one or more hostages are killed in the attempt -- sometimes by
their attempted rescuers.
1
It started with oil, but has morphed into Jihad, and of course, the ancient hatreds, which will be alive long after you an I are dust.
1
yes.
You have selected and trained the most elite, gifted, and bravest warriors, charged with the sole purpose of seeking out and hunting down our most vicious, cruel, and evil enemies. Now you want to rein them in with restrictions and oversight? Damn the oversight, Full speed ahead! And bravo for SEAL Team 6!!!
47
That's what they said about Jason Bourne, and look what happened there!
You simply have to restrict them and oversee their activities.
1
"Quiet killings and blurred lines" seems to ring a bell in my memory. Hasn't this been done before - maybe in the old USSR? Or Germany in the 1930s and 40s? And to think all these years I have been pooh-poohing the fear of the black helicopters and the smeared faces of killers. I like that phrase: "global manhunting machine", don't you? Kind of James Bond-ish, maybe? I suppose it all depends on which "man" is being hunted - ours or theirs. "Primeval tomahawks"? Us? The "Good Guys"? Perhaps Pogo was right after all..........
16
Spot on, k pichon!
And for those who never read or are too young to know of the late Walt
Kelly's great comic strip Pogo, the sagacious 'possum of Okefenokee
Swamp said "We have met the enemy, and he is us."
And for those who never read or are too young to know of the late Walt
Kelly's great comic strip Pogo, the sagacious 'possum of Okefenokee
Swamp said "We have met the enemy, and he is us."
Seal Team 6 "has been transformed by more than a decade of combat into a global manhunting machine."
A number of questions: Are we safer now as a result of SEAL Team 6 missions? Or have we merely created more enemies?
Where is the oversight? How many civilians have been killed?
It appears that for every person killed, there is someone eager to take his position and, therefore, one questions the wisdom and efficacy of these missions.
"A global manhunting machine." Somehow that does not sound like the America I want to believe in..........
A number of questions: Are we safer now as a result of SEAL Team 6 missions? Or have we merely created more enemies?
Where is the oversight? How many civilians have been killed?
It appears that for every person killed, there is someone eager to take his position and, therefore, one questions the wisdom and efficacy of these missions.
"A global manhunting machine." Somehow that does not sound like the America I want to believe in..........
94
I wouldn't worry about creating more enemies , they seem to create themselves quite well
i expect we create more enemies by NOT killing people who need killing, in our sole estimation of need
As we enter the 21 century, the Islamic century, we are thrust foreground into The Long War, which has been fgought since Islam was invented
Our foundational years as a country, were fighting the North African Barbary pirates, these days we fight the East African Muslim pirates
this war will go until the heat death of the sun, and longer if we colonize the stars
get used to it
no we are not making enemies, their schools make such, long before we were a country and even before the Euros found the 'New world'
they make them, and they make enemies green on green, we are just part of the crowd
i expect we create more enemies by NOT killing people who need killing, in our sole estimation of need
As we enter the 21 century, the Islamic century, we are thrust foreground into The Long War, which has been fgought since Islam was invented
Our foundational years as a country, were fighting the North African Barbary pirates, these days we fight the East African Muslim pirates
this war will go until the heat death of the sun, and longer if we colonize the stars
get used to it
no we are not making enemies, their schools make such, long before we were a country and even before the Euros found the 'New world'
they make them, and they make enemies green on green, we are just part of the crowd
1
These warriors are the best of our best, and I am very glad that they are on the job. Senator Bob Kerrey described SEAL's extended missions very well; "they've become sort of a 1-800 number ..." We can plan tactics better than that for these eliete troops.
In all of the complexities of War, I hope Team 6's missions will be specific, and their targets are calculated and accurate. Its a very dirty World, and War IS hell. I hope the Pentagon continues to give the SEALs whatever tools they need. Covert action IS necessary here. Let them do their job.
In all of the complexities of War, I hope Team 6's missions will be specific, and their targets are calculated and accurate. Its a very dirty World, and War IS hell. I hope the Pentagon continues to give the SEALs whatever tools they need. Covert action IS necessary here. Let them do their job.
36
There are no surprises here... good reporting, but no surprises. Here we have a by-product of a culture that glorifies violence, conquest and a "me-first" philosophy.... Hundreds of years genocide, slavery and violent conquest.... This SEAL Team 6 is a logical evolution of a culture and a country that has only very rarely been at peace during its almost 240-year history. Americans could look carefully at their news media, and take note of the preponderance of reference to "the military"... THIS HAPPENS IN NO OTHER COUNTRY.
Can this change? Possibly...
It could help to end the mercenary military recruitment system that now exists... Re-institute the Draft.... Engage young men and women from ALL social and economic sectors in productive social service (military / civilian). This service should be an obligation; one which accompanies the priviledge of living in "the richest country in the world".
Can this change? Possibly...
It could help to end the mercenary military recruitment system that now exists... Re-institute the Draft.... Engage young men and women from ALL social and economic sectors in productive social service (military / civilian). This service should be an obligation; one which accompanies the priviledge of living in "the richest country in the world".
19
look at most developed countries and all have comparable units mission-wise. your snide "me-first" comment in association with this article is a discredit to the bravery and sacrifice of these service members.
it is only by the grace of god that you are able to live in this...oops...you're slumming it in guadalajara. never mind.
it is only by the grace of god that you are able to live in this...oops...you're slumming it in guadalajara. never mind.
2
Dear Zeno.... my comment was referring to a culture; no mention was made of the service members themselves. I have no reason to doubt their bravey. And as for your comment about where I live, what does that have to do with anything?
1
robert...thanks for your clarification regarding your original comment.
the fact that you choose to disparagingly comment on a country's culture while residing outside of that country -- whether an ex-pat or otherwise -- make where you live pertinent to the discussion.
the fact that you choose to disparagingly comment on a country's culture while residing outside of that country -- whether an ex-pat or otherwise -- make where you live pertinent to the discussion.
So what are we supposed to provide before a SEAL Team goes out on a mission - A 'Human Subjects Committee' like a University? And when they get back shall we have an 'after-action' hand holding session? Let's get real - the world is a really nasty place and we need to have an answer for these circumstances just like the killing UBL and others. Do we need so many operators? Maybe not...just like we don't need the NSA scooping up every bit of American phone data either at an outrageous cost. Let's face it, from the NSA to every branch of the DOD, our defense department is essentially rudderless at the moment with no clear enemy - and there's nothing worse than throwing money at problems with no clear purpose for a government organization. America's DOD has turned into the US Postal Service with costs rising and really lousy service. If anybody can find a drawing board in Washington DC today, they better start using it fast.....Navy Seals alone won't save the country and neither will a military that can't or won't figure out whom it's enemies really are in the modern era.
4
The politicians define the enemy; the military carry our the missions.
1
SO many issues here.
Conflict always ensures some collateral damage and the two-edged sword births the question: better a few or the tens of thousands that happen when we engage in follies like GWB's attack on Baghdad?
The cost to the members of these elite teams. How to serve, and then return to a "normal" world?
Oversight? Who should be privvy to missions whose success is beholden to secrecy, even from "friendlies"? Who ultimately is the decider of these units are used?
Then there is the question of why we need or use these units in the first place. If a vaccination can make you ill, but a disease will kill you, you get the vaccination. Any "dark/wet" operation threatens our code of proper moral conduct. What is the alternative?
We live in a dirty world where our enemies publish videos of beheading our journalists; pre-teen children are a substantial number of "rebel" armies; surviving poverty and overzealous religious practices are the only education people get and suicide attack guarantee entrance to Paradise.
Probability says bad apples turn up, innocents die, and fingers in stress pull triggers
And the question of why I am reading his piece. National Security? I DON'T want to know the details of what keeps my grandchildren safe....but I am sure ISIS, Al Queda, Iran, Somalia, China, Russia are very interested.
Thank you Edward Snowden...you opened the Pandora's Box of the public's "Right To Know".
Are we safer now?
Conflict always ensures some collateral damage and the two-edged sword births the question: better a few or the tens of thousands that happen when we engage in follies like GWB's attack on Baghdad?
The cost to the members of these elite teams. How to serve, and then return to a "normal" world?
Oversight? Who should be privvy to missions whose success is beholden to secrecy, even from "friendlies"? Who ultimately is the decider of these units are used?
Then there is the question of why we need or use these units in the first place. If a vaccination can make you ill, but a disease will kill you, you get the vaccination. Any "dark/wet" operation threatens our code of proper moral conduct. What is the alternative?
We live in a dirty world where our enemies publish videos of beheading our journalists; pre-teen children are a substantial number of "rebel" armies; surviving poverty and overzealous religious practices are the only education people get and suicide attack guarantee entrance to Paradise.
Probability says bad apples turn up, innocents die, and fingers in stress pull triggers
And the question of why I am reading his piece. National Security? I DON'T want to know the details of what keeps my grandchildren safe....but I am sure ISIS, Al Queda, Iran, Somalia, China, Russia are very interested.
Thank you Edward Snowden...you opened the Pandora's Box of the public's "Right To Know".
Are we safer now?
8
You don't want to know. And that's what will kill the very notion of a nation of citizens who rule their own land as free persons, and what will place "big daddies" over you. You'll be sure they're on your side, they're "keeping me safe", and you'll find out how oppression rises in the absence of your own responsibility for your own nation's doings. Because there are plenty of people, wealthy and powerful, who have the same designs on this nation here as they have abroad, designs that have nothing to do with keeping you safe. And you're shivering in a childlike plea that they take care of you while you keep your eyes closed and the cover over your head. It's a nation that is no longer worthy, it may be, of self-rule. Infantilization and cowardice have made it thus.
2
Very glad US has this unit and capability.
35
To quote the Duke of Wellington, victor at Waterloo: "I don't know what effect these men will have upon the enemy, but, by God, they frighten me."
But given the character and beliefs of America's modern enemies, we need them. God bless, and carry on.......
But given the character and beliefs of America's modern enemies, we need them. God bless, and carry on.......
35
"It is forbidden to kill, therefore all murderers are punished unless they kill in large numbers and to the sound of trumpets."
--VOLTAIRE
--VOLTAIRE
98
Every large nation with a modern military has a 'special' force that kills under the radar of 'international law'...
Perpetual Warfare... This is how sausage is made...
And while it all may be 'necessary', it is both very sad and disgusting, nonetheless... for both the/our warriors and their/our prey....
Perpetual Warfare... This is how sausage is made...
And while it all may be 'necessary', it is both very sad and disgusting, nonetheless... for both the/our warriors and their/our prey....
6
Terrorists come in all stripes. How we rationalize their behavior is the difference between a freedom fighter and the enemy.
14
When viewed by innocents in these countries, ST6 fits the dictionary definition of terrorists. If our goal is to create new enemies we can use to justify our next war, we are doing great. Maybe the real purpose is to scare taxpayers into giving more $billions to billionaires?
1
Of course 'Terrorist" come in all stripes . That is why terrorism is only relative to those who are on the receiving end. Our perception about the whole concept is overblown . For that reason the people and nations we are war against perceive us as terrorists, and we never seem to understand how the Iraqis, Afghans, Pakistani and others feel, when we embark into their countries with such military units. After all we started the fraud war on Iraq and we occupy Afghanistan. In addition after 9/11 that need never would have happened if Reagan and his cronies had not double crossed his favorite freedom fighter bin laden / the Mujahadeen and not renege the promises that were made. In fact Reagan and cohorts hired a private army lead by bin Laden and Mujahadeen for our proxy war in Afghanistan against the Soviet presence there.
Then Bush W / Cheney in order to be a war time administration concocted and implemented a fraud war on Iraq with falsified and manufactured evidence, followed by Islam bashing and Judaeo-Christian psychopathy that lead to millions of Islamic radicals, militants and insurgents joining up and all classified as terrorists. Far worst is the situation here at home with more propaganda of terror hype, fomentation of hate, fear and republican patriotic feeding frenzy to control the hearts and minds of a misled and gullible nation. Our so called freedom, that we do not have on account of the harbinger of the National Security. We are our own worst enemy.
Then Bush W / Cheney in order to be a war time administration concocted and implemented a fraud war on Iraq with falsified and manufactured evidence, followed by Islam bashing and Judaeo-Christian psychopathy that lead to millions of Islamic radicals, militants and insurgents joining up and all classified as terrorists. Far worst is the situation here at home with more propaganda of terror hype, fomentation of hate, fear and republican patriotic feeding frenzy to control the hearts and minds of a misled and gullible nation. Our so called freedom, that we do not have on account of the harbinger of the National Security. We are our own worst enemy.
2
"said Britt Slabinski, a retired senior enlisted member of Team 6 and veteran of combat in Afghanistan and Iraq. “It’s emotional, one human being killing another human being for extended periods of time. It’s going to bring out the worst in you. It’s also going to bring out the best in you.”" He's got the first part right.
28
Thank God for these soldiers.
8
Good to know this unit exists. They can get the important work done while the overt side of our government puts on a show for the media, and thru them, the clueless populace.
8
Never lose sight of the fact that this is an all volunteer force protecting you from an enemy sworn to kill you if it ever gets the chance. And, appreciate the fact that you aren't the one on the working end of that tomahawk.
11
More like creating new enemies we can use to justify our next war. The real goal is to scare taxpayers into giving more $billions to billionaires.
2
Are these Taxpayer-paid assassins? this is not really something we want to brag about is it? this is the stuff of tv escapism gone rogue. this is NOT combat--this is almost a vigilante group out for bounty kills.
4th U.S. Army
1965-67(ret)
4th U.S. Army
1965-67(ret)
100
I agree. We are AMERICANS. We do not torture as at Guantanamo. We do not assassinate. This NOT who we are, no matter what feeling of satisfaction you get from reading about these activities. I spent more than 20 years in the military, and we should not place ourselves in the position of judge, jury and executioner. You know, down deep inside, it is wrong. Read the history books. These kinds of "squads" have existed in the past, and we usually opposed them. Somehow we have changed. Or they have.
1
Do remind us of the combat record of the Fourth Army in 1965-67, and your part in it.
Regardless of what is presented in this story, ST6 has far more capability.
I am glad they exist and perform the missions they do.
I am glad they exist and perform the missions they do.
14
Far more capability than what? You think the article was wrong? Explain.
No one had heard of Seal Team 6, till Obama "outed" them in his announcement telling us that Bin Laden had been killed. He was grandstanding and did not need to do that. It setSeal Team 6 in the Taliban's crosshairs, hence the helicopter that was shot down shortly after. NYT, I am not pleased to see so much detail here, either Mistakes will be made, but they are an honorable group. I am so grateful to this unit and the Army's counterpart of it.
18
You mean Richard Marcinko writing Rogue Warrior. Also, when did Obama said it was SEAL Team 6. Could you point to me to that speech.
2
You can't give Obama credit for getting Osama due to politics. He did not "out" anyone, the team was well known. He simply shined a light on a unit that is having to do some heavy lifting due to the nature of the war we are in. That sort of praise is indicative of a good leader.
1
bull hockey. stories about seal team 6 have been flying around since marcinko outed them in his self-promotion tours
I am reminded of the famous quote attributed to Churchill: "We sleep safe in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would do us harm".
276
The quote has been attributed to Churchill, but it actually first appeared in a column in the Washington Times, written by the film critic and essayist Richard Grenier in 1993.
http://quoteinvestigator.com/2011/11/07/rough-men/
http://quoteinvestigator.com/2011/11/07/rough-men/
George Orwell
@Rich: It may be attributed to Churchill, but there's no evidence that he actually said that. Greg from CT got the quotation correct (written by Richard Grenier in 1993).
As opposed to violence as I am (and this report shows extreme violence) I am surprised to find myself thinking of the beheadings our enemies have carried out and do not find this investigation as horrible as I think it was supposed to be to the readers of it.
Remembering the beheadings and the 2001 World Trade Center tragedies, I am not as appalled as I thought I would be prior to reading this article.
As usual, NYT delivers an incredible and brilliant accounting of all their investigations, no one surpasses them in this genre but I wonder if we were supposed to be surprised of upset about it. I am certain that others will hate what they are reading and again, I am taken aback by my reaction of not being surprised or angered. Our enemies are savages without souls who are threatening many innocents all in the name of GOD - do I have sympathy for them? No.
Remembering the beheadings and the 2001 World Trade Center tragedies, I am not as appalled as I thought I would be prior to reading this article.
As usual, NYT delivers an incredible and brilliant accounting of all their investigations, no one surpasses them in this genre but I wonder if we were supposed to be surprised of upset about it. I am certain that others will hate what they are reading and again, I am taken aback by my reaction of not being surprised or angered. Our enemies are savages without souls who are threatening many innocents all in the name of GOD - do I have sympathy for them? No.
26
Sorry, I find nothing wrong with the SEALS. In fact, what I would ask of these soldiers is their utmost to protect Americans since the current administration is not up to the job. If President, I would make it know to all these terrorist organization we are going to use these select warriors and attack, harass and eliminate. You won't know when, we will not ask permission, but we will be there. To those countries who can't stomach the thought of this group doing the dirty work, too bad. Either join in or get out of the way. Those who want to call this murder or assignation, don't bother reading. This is warfare against a faction that has no border, no rules, no humanity. They must be dealt with and they must be dealt with in extreme terms.
22
A perfect description of how the Seals operate under President Obama's Administration - as Osama bin Laden found out.
Bravo Seals! Bravo Mr. President!
Bravo Seals! Bravo Mr. President!
5
Great read. Sounds like a book to me. But great job by your 6 reporters and God only knows who else.
1
Let me get this straight. American soldiers risk their lives to save hostages, hostage who might be savagely killed and if a ransom is paid, the ransom is used to buy guns to kill American soldiers and to buy bombs to kill innocent civilians. And the kidnappers are killed. And there is something wrong this? I know the arguments about not descending to the level of one's animalistic enemies, and about setting an example, and about the fact that how we treat our enemies can define or at least influence how they treat us. If I thought that any of that mattered, I would be as upset as some of the freed captives seemed to be, but I am afraid this is not the case, at least now now. Maybe when the beheadings and the bombing of schools stop I will think differently.
And for the record, I am not some type of gun-toting hawk (chicken or otherwise). Violence should always be the last resort, but if you are going to be violent, you should be violent. I wish that it were otherwise, but it is not.
And for the record, I am not some type of gun-toting hawk (chicken or otherwise). Violence should always be the last resort, but if you are going to be violent, you should be violent. I wish that it were otherwise, but it is not.
9
Not so sure this force is the amazing bastion of freedom's defense. Especially when controlled by regressive neocons.
20
Do identify, please, the 'regressive neocons' who control the Seals.
Senator Bob Kerrey is correct. My view is that too much power is being concentrated into military hands.
30
"More SEALS carrying deadlier weapons meant that fewer enemies escaped alive", and this is a problem? This entire article is based on the premise that Team 6 is somehow doing things wrong by protecting us and our soldiers from Jihadists who want to kill. I for one am glad they're on our side, doing a dangerous job, for which they can never be properly credited due to security issues.
We sitting here at home can not and should not judge decisions made by people who are protecting us and dying in the process.
We sitting here at home can not and should not judge decisions made by people who are protecting us and dying in the process.
22
No US soldier has lifted a finger since WWII to keep me safe. Thanks but no thanks.
2
No John,
The problem is that "enemies" were at one point defined so broadly that anyone in the area with a gun (and Afghanistan is like Texas on this point, most households have guns) was the "enemy." You don't see a problem with that?
The problem is that "enemies" were at one point defined so broadly that anyone in the area with a gun (and Afghanistan is like Texas on this point, most households have guns) was the "enemy." You don't see a problem with that?
Glad we have them. War is horrible; bad stuff happens; but it still need to be fought. Less carnage on the bin Laden hit than if it had been attempted by drone strike.
7
If there's criticism about lax oversight, that should lay with Congress. It's their job to provide oversight and if they aren't, then the Times should hold those members or committees accountable.
7
And Congress head-in-the-sand style intentionally wants to know nothing about these forces.
Which operate "outside of the rules" because we haven't the guts to forge rules that reflect our reality and put our enemies on notice.
And next come video games which do legitimize lawlessness and a wink and nod to practical situation, saturating our youth in respect for our laws and institutions???
Which operate "outside of the rules" because we haven't the guts to forge rules that reflect our reality and put our enemies on notice.
And next come video games which do legitimize lawlessness and a wink and nod to practical situation, saturating our youth in respect for our laws and institutions???
4
The SEALs will never stop growing becuase the US's reflexive stance on foreign affairs is to be involved and bend the world to the West. Maybe the US's general stance needs to be more reactionary than proactive. (Of course this means more risk for Americans, but maybe that's the world we live in). We should be prepared with SEALs if necessary, but they shouldn't be a go to tool for warfare. That will also prevent things like sending SEALs to target low level taliban.
3
What is scary to me is what happens emotionally when these trained killers come back to America and try to live "normal" lives. What happens when a trained killer is not supposed to kill any more?...when the hero becomes just an average joe? The rescue missions have great value but killing just to eliminate some low-to-mid-level adversaries? Where's the value in that? There must be some emotional impact or else these killers are simply robots.
12
In dealing with terrorists who kill and maim without regret, we should be thankful we have operators in Delta and the SEALs, as well as other units to take that fight directly to them.
29
We have been killing and maiming innocent people for years with our use of drones, and have largely been doing so without regret. I'm not so sure we can claim any moral high ground here.
2
"with limited outside oversight". What the hell? What kind of country have we become wherein death squads roam the world in our name "with limited outside oversight"? What on earth is to stop them from deciding to use their own metric to determine who lives and who dies. This must stop. It is wrong.
241
Yes. We've not won a war since WW2. Yet we have unending war for no rational reason, No one can point to anything made better by these wars. The US is the only nation that violates other nation's sovereignty, and we do so routinely. In 50 years, only the US has attacked another nation not bordering itself. We have become rogue. Never thought I'd see us condemned by Amnesty International or accused of war crimes by the UN Human Rights commission.
4
Would you a congressional committee to supervise them?
I doubt it.
I doubt it.
2
It would seem we need these assassins. But oversight is essential for the reason you explain. Without oversight, they could decide it is their duty to get involved in politics and start killing candidates they deem a threat to national security. No country is immunized against a military coup.
War is violent and ugly. These men are heroes. Thank God we have them.
172
"War is violent and ugly."
Right! So better not to start it unless one's country is in danger!
Right! So better not to start it unless one's country is in danger!
@ Cold Liberal: "War is violent and ugly."
Agreed, so let's do what we can to stop wasting our resources on unnecessary, futile wars. We've been at war for over a decade and wasted trillions of dollars.
Then we wouldn't need to use taxpayer money to train mercenaries to perform unsupervised assassinations and murder on our behalf.
Agreed, so let's do what we can to stop wasting our resources on unnecessary, futile wars. We've been at war for over a decade and wasted trillions of dollars.
Then we wouldn't need to use taxpayer money to train mercenaries to perform unsupervised assassinations and murder on our behalf.
1
These men are unquestionably courageous servants of our country, whose sacrifice we mortals can't pretend to understand. However, the lack of oversight runs counter to everything they purportedly represent.
If SEAL Team 6 is a scalpel, who's the responsible surgeon? There is nothing sexy or glamorous about clandestine killings, and we need to stop romanticizing it. Granted, We The People don't need to know about the innermost workings of field ops, but someone must, and they need to answer to the electorate--American citizens are their bosses, and they'd better not forget it.
If SEAL Team 6 is a scalpel, who's the responsible surgeon? There is nothing sexy or glamorous about clandestine killings, and we need to stop romanticizing it. Granted, We The People don't need to know about the innermost workings of field ops, but someone must, and they need to answer to the electorate--American citizens are their bosses, and they'd better not forget it.
33
My heartfelt Thank You goes out to each and every one of these men for protecting our freedoms, facing threats head on and getting their hands dirty with that which won't wash off.
15
So the Times thinks we should have read Osama his rights, arrested him, and brought him back for trial?
18
R,R,, where in the article does it say that?
2
Would that have been such a terrible thing to do? After all, that is precisely what the U.S. insisted be done with Nazi war criminals. Unfortunately, we have squandered the noble, moral high ground we held in the days of the Nuremberg trials.
1
I wonder how the average American and various human rights organizations would react if other countries took inspiration from Seal Team 6 and employed such elite extra-judicial squads to do their "dirty work"....
194
Ugh, they do sir. Vigorously!
2
TE...perhaps you missed the 'dirty work' employed by hundreds of thousands of non-elite, non-military, non-moral "teams"?
1
They do. That is why we are in a world that demands we have these elite units.
4
In a better world, their mission wouldn't exist. In the world we live in, I'm grateful we have them.
30
The article can take a movie line "you can't handle the truth."
Our lives, our freedom, our allies freedom all counts on persons like this doing the dirty work for the rest of us. The housewives of orange county and the kardashians and all of our sports stars combined are not worth 1 Seal.
Our lives, our freedom, our allies freedom all counts on persons like this doing the dirty work for the rest of us. The housewives of orange county and the kardashians and all of our sports stars combined are not worth 1 Seal.
8
Does anyone see the irony here in our government and neocons lambasting Putin for his policy to keep secret the names of Russian special forces engaged in special, off the books military operations, while extolling the virtues of our own army of trained military hit men?
170
No irony - two governments with the same objectives but radically different means of attaining it is not ironic.
Maybe you think that the US fighting WW II was ironic because the Nazis were fighting in WW II as well.
Maybe you think that the US fighting WW II was ironic because the Nazis were fighting in WW II as well.
2
No, actually I don't. Russia, and Putin, enjoy what they do the way psychopaths enjoy pulling wings off flies. I think we, as a rule, agonize over our decisions and actions.
Are there mistakes? Of course. We do not live in a Utopian world.
Are there mistakes? Of course. We do not live in a Utopian world.
yes I do see the irony, absolutely, and while I'm anti-militarist, I'm afraid such irony must exist in the world, since there is always an "us" and "them", nationalistic competition, and each side will and must express its views to create this very irony, however unfortunate.
There are blurred lines between freedom of the press and, to put it as genteely as possible, "semi-unintentional sedition."
While I trust the article is not intended to undermine our nation or our safety, the tone of the article is a front page gold mine of verbiage for our enemies.
Loose lips sinks ships.
While I trust the article is not intended to undermine our nation or our safety, the tone of the article is a front page gold mine of verbiage for our enemies.
Loose lips sinks ships.
4
Loose lips do sink ships. But in a country that respects the rule of law,
war crimes are still war crimes.
war crimes are still war crimes.
People, this is WAR. Seal 6 operates at a pretty high standard compared to the lowest common denominators who they confront. What do you think - that they should be wearing tutus and asking permission from people who they have to evaluate in a nanosecond and who are more than likely to kill them in the next nanosecond?
Consider the alternatives: missions that are not accomplished, wide-scale bombing to clear the path for large contingents to enter enemy territories to attempt to accomplish similar ends, dead hostages, Osama bin Laden still at large.... I'll take the effectiveness and relative cost of SEAL 6 over the options until the day when war ends. If they misbehave, that's part of the cost. They live in a different world. Given what their lives are like, I can certainly understand it even if I don't condone it.
Consider the alternatives: missions that are not accomplished, wide-scale bombing to clear the path for large contingents to enter enemy territories to attempt to accomplish similar ends, dead hostages, Osama bin Laden still at large.... I'll take the effectiveness and relative cost of SEAL 6 over the options until the day when war ends. If they misbehave, that's part of the cost. They live in a different world. Given what their lives are like, I can certainly understand it even if I don't condone it.
5
If these troops are so effective, why are all these wars lost causes? These forces are seen as assassins committing murder and are ineffective because wherever they go we make a new enemy. There was an old interview with a WWI veteran shown recently who said they never took a sniper prisoner. We are pretty sick to make snipers into heros.
153
Drones-Sniper-Artillery-Bombs from a plane...
Why single out sniper? Confused u r.
Why single out sniper? Confused u r.
Our wars are lost causes because they are poorly chosen. From Vietnam and Cambodia to Iraq and Afghanistan we have selected unwinnable and unimportant wars.
The skills of SEAL Team 6 and Delta force are striking, but skills cannot make an ill-chosen war turn into a victory.
The problem lies in the realm of American politics.
The skills of SEAL Team 6 and Delta force are striking, but skills cannot make an ill-chosen war turn into a victory.
The problem lies in the realm of American politics.
Wars are lost causes because the only people who benefit are politicians who start them but never fight them. Make no mistake: Most of the world has hated us long before these people got involved because we're always backing the wrong people e.g., Karsai et al who are much or more criminal than their so-called enemies. All this might be resolved by getting out of these hell holes and letting them settle their own issues.
It's a messy business, but--sadly--still a necessary one. I am so proud of these men and women, and all they sacrifice for us. Lives are lost, sometimes even innocent ones, but I firmly believe that the lives these courageous patriots have saved far, far outnumber the ones they have taken.
4
All seem to forget the mission of an Army is to kill people and break things. They are not law enforcement operatives they are military specialists trained in warfare not criminal prosecution. If you don't want this in the military, then disband it and suffer the consequences. I've not seen any indication that any of these team members followed an illegal order which they are obligated to defy.
Stop trying to turn our Armed forces into some left wing social experiment and give them the tools and directives to WIN this war.
Stop trying to turn our Armed forces into some left wing social experiment and give them the tools and directives to WIN this war.
8
How long are we willing to fight these wars and letting do their jobs? At what cost in treasure and blood? We've been fighting this enemy for over 13 years.
Part of the military takeover of our society. Brave, strong, they really catch no one, including Osama Bin Laden, - the Pakistanis had him in custody. We'd save an awful amount of money if we lessened the role of military -this would provide us with better security ( since the drones and assassinations create more enemies for us) . Money that can be used infrastructure, job training and other efforts to combat inequality- which is our biggest threat- and the Seals won't even touch that one.
13
Although they have been militarily inconsequential, the special ops units make superb propaganda theater, and the New York Times has given them a splendid public stage to parade their exploits. No matter how many countries we have ruined and lives we have destroyed, America's devil dogs are splendid heroes. Pay no attention to what our nation has done; just look at their cool guns and tomahawks. Mission accomplished!