If BSA continues to freely associate in a bigoted way, not one penny of tax dollars or of tax-free dollars should support this undue discrimination. Bigotry without direct or indirect public subsidy is bad enough (bad enough to cause parents like me to pass freely on scouting for my children). BSA and its contributors should be taxed or else made to conform to anti-discriminatory standards of public decency.
6
The BSA should set one standard for all troop sponsors. If a church sponsor doesn't agree with those standards, then that church can be excused and another sponsor for that troop can be found. Religious freedom allows that church to teach its members what it will. It does require that non-affiliated organizations in the course of their own operations make allowances for those teachings.
3
When the local Catholic church wanted to make our troop all Catholic boys, (and now one has to wonder about that motivation) my father pulled me out of the troop and subsequently that troop disbanded.
The more we can teach our children about the world around them the more mature they should become as they learn decision making skills.
The more we can teach our children about the world around them the more mature they should become as they learn decision making skills.
5
This article seems to have drawn bigots/homophobes out of their dark corners. Should we be shocked? Sadly, I think not! Cultural change is slow and it's hard work. Take note of the following comment: "More principles do not ebb and flow with the wind. They are never out of style." Really? Slavery was once in fashion. Not anymore! It was once fashionable to deny women the vote. That has gone by the boards. Slavery and denial of the vote were thought to be founded on moral principles. That was dead wrong. Inevitably, homophobia will find its way into the dustbin of history but it will take time.
7
“...we must deal with the world as it is, not as we might wish it to be.” Seriously? Who is the "we" in this sentence? And what kind of a world might we wish? A world without gays? Or one in which everyone stays dutifully in the closet?
How can someone advocate acceptance while simultaneously suggesting a legitimate desire to do exactly the opposite?
How can someone advocate acceptance while simultaneously suggesting a legitimate desire to do exactly the opposite?
4
As a long time Scout leader and father of 2 Eagle Scouts, I think that this is the right move.
The Scouts have in place (for over 2 decades) a good youth protection policy and youth protection training requirement for leaders (over 18 yrs old), which I think will prevent there being problems with gay and lesbian leaders. There can be problems with any leaders, but I do not expect that the sexual orientation of leaders will be particularly problematic.
On the other hand, the Scouts do need to develop a more explicit youth-protection policy for interaction among the 'boys'. Now that gay Scouts are allowed, we need to address the questions like whether a 17 1/2 year old gay Scout should be allowed to share a tent or be a swim and hiking 'buddy' (in the traditional buddy system) with an 11 or even 10 1/2 -year old Tenderfoot. As far as I know, there is no rule about this except the traditional rule against sexual interaction. There is nothing like the rules for adult leaders that aim to prevent the potentially problematic situations.
The Scouts have in place (for over 2 decades) a good youth protection policy and youth protection training requirement for leaders (over 18 yrs old), which I think will prevent there being problems with gay and lesbian leaders. There can be problems with any leaders, but I do not expect that the sexual orientation of leaders will be particularly problematic.
On the other hand, the Scouts do need to develop a more explicit youth-protection policy for interaction among the 'boys'. Now that gay Scouts are allowed, we need to address the questions like whether a 17 1/2 year old gay Scout should be allowed to share a tent or be a swim and hiking 'buddy' (in the traditional buddy system) with an 11 or even 10 1/2 -year old Tenderfoot. As far as I know, there is no rule about this except the traditional rule against sexual interaction. There is nothing like the rules for adult leaders that aim to prevent the potentially problematic situations.
1
Perhaps the days of the Boy Scots are past and it is time for the group to disband because of the divisiveness and falling membership it is experiencing. Conservative organizations can form their own activities for boys, if they wish, as can more liberal groups. Parents are clearly already voting with their feet and future parents, raised in a very diverse world, will certainly continue to do so. Mr. Gates is right. We must live in the world as it is and that most likely means the end of Boy Scouts as we know it and maybe the beginning of more modern, supportive activities that will better prepare boys and young men for the worlds they will inhabit.
4
When will scouting eliminate all of its bigotry and allow in boys who are atheists?
6
Live and let live. A time and a place for almost everything. The pro-Gay mob will likely lambaste me but what's wrong with those who want to sexualize every aspect of society? The USA is becoming a less-than-desirable place to dwell. Working-poor blue-collar folks can not relocate to a different culture. Maybe we will have to wrench a part of the existing USA away and create a new country/culture/society.
2
I agree with you that the US is becoming harder to stomach... but it isn't the homosexuals that bother me. It's the oligarchs and the religious fanatics.
10
You are living in a sham...Most of the social research out there is fake and fraudulent. It's used to manipulate minds and attitudes. Statistically only 1percent of population really identifies themself as gay, 85% of the 1% aren't in a monogamous relationship. But if you listen to the media, they make seem like it is 10- 25%
4
What does the percentage matter? Either the organization discriminates or it doesn't.
3
Personally, I'm inclined to wonder about the wisdom of allowing former C.I.A directors the opportunity to shape the minds of children. But I suppose we must deal with the world as it is: not as we would wish it to be.
7
I wonder if anyone knows how many gay men who are ashamed of their sexuality go into the religion biz in the hopes of "cleansing themselves" of homosexuality. They surely continuously struggle with the fact that religion is NOT changing them, and they become full of self-loathing. By the number of outed clergy, I suspect that number is fairly high.
4
First, civil rights are determined by the State, so they don’t exist prior to such determination.
Second, any decision must be in accordance to the will of the people, or we don’t have democracy.
Ireland is the first country where a referendum on gay rights will be held, and already protests are heard, alleging that “they’re not actually supposed to be voted on. That’s why there’re called rights.” This means that the gay community is against a referendum for fear of an outcome they don’t favor, which is a dictatorial attitude.
Mr Gates said “We must deal with the world as it is, not as we might wish it to be.” Right, and who determines how the world is? The people, which means the opinion of the majority: straight people, and not that of a judge.
Western society is already subject to a homosexual dictatorship, which completely destroyed the culture (music, films, literature) of straight, natural sex, so that today straight people who are the large majority, are forbidden to express their opinion, and forced to pretend that this is OK.
In result, children, instead of learning what is normal for human beings, are confronted with the idea that anything can be considered normal. So evidently this will lead to an ever increasing percentage of homosexuals, exactly what they want.
Second, any decision must be in accordance to the will of the people, or we don’t have democracy.
Ireland is the first country where a referendum on gay rights will be held, and already protests are heard, alleging that “they’re not actually supposed to be voted on. That’s why there’re called rights.” This means that the gay community is against a referendum for fear of an outcome they don’t favor, which is a dictatorial attitude.
Mr Gates said “We must deal with the world as it is, not as we might wish it to be.” Right, and who determines how the world is? The people, which means the opinion of the majority: straight people, and not that of a judge.
Western society is already subject to a homosexual dictatorship, which completely destroyed the culture (music, films, literature) of straight, natural sex, so that today straight people who are the large majority, are forbidden to express their opinion, and forced to pretend that this is OK.
In result, children, instead of learning what is normal for human beings, are confronted with the idea that anything can be considered normal. So evidently this will lead to an ever increasing percentage of homosexuals, exactly what they want.
2
This article is a bit like the announcement in Philadelphia in 1776: Constitution Calls for Ban on Slavery.
All Gates has done is push the issue down to Councils and troops, where discrimination will continue and gay scouts in many parts of the country will be no better off and still get chucked out at 19.
P.S. There was no such announcement in 1776 because those folks didn't put lipstick on pigs like so many do today.
All Gates has done is push the issue down to Councils and troops, where discrimination will continue and gay scouts in many parts of the country will be no better off and still get chucked out at 19.
P.S. There was no such announcement in 1776 because those folks didn't put lipstick on pigs like so many do today.
1
Replacing Donald Rumsfeld as Secretary of Defense with Gates was the best thing that could happen to the armed forces in G.W. Bush's days.
He proves himself worthy again with the Boy Scouts. KUDOS!
“The sin which is unpardonable is knowingly and wilfully to reject truth, to fear knowledge lest that knowledge pander not to thy prejudices.”
~ ALEISTER CROWLEY
He proves himself worthy again with the Boy Scouts. KUDOS!
“The sin which is unpardonable is knowingly and wilfully to reject truth, to fear knowledge lest that knowledge pander not to thy prejudices.”
~ ALEISTER CROWLEY
2
I believe many are trying to make this an issue about religion when in fact it is not. This is an issue about the safety of our youth, both girls and boys, when under the supervision of "trusted" adult leaders. This charge is not to be taken lightly or to used as political fodder. Whether the BSA adheres to policy or institutes any change the only focus should be that of what is best for the youth.
1
If it's about safety, the sexual orientation of the scoutmaster is also irrelevant--- because there's no scientific link between pedophilia and homosexuality. Pedophiles and abusers in general come in any number of forms.
3
It's only an issue if you're ignorant enough to equate being gay with being a pedophile. The number of ignorant people in this country is staggering.
7
Forgive me if I am reading too much between the lines of your comment, but it sounds like you are questioning whether or not youth are safe under the trusted leadership of adult homosexuals. The answer is yes. The idea that all homosexual men are out to molest young boys is repugnant, ignorant, and a belief that hopefully no longer carries weight in 2015.
Again, my apologies if that is not what you were insinuating.
Again, my apologies if that is not what you were insinuating.
5
How ironic! Throughout all of these years the Boy Scouts of America never blinked an eye about having a leader who, in his professional life, lead an institution that tortured prisoners, destabilized and tumbled foreign governments, assassinated foreign leaders, provided false information to the US Senate and spied on its own citizens, among other things. Who elects the Boy Scouts' leaders? Obviously those on the board don't understand what morals are really about! Do parents know what kind of values are being instilled on their children?
4
Embracing diversity is great. My only question is: When are they going to really embrace diversity and ban the gender division? Women and girls should be part of the organization as well.
I have my own opinion about gay adult leaders among boy scouts. I am not a bigot, but: as well as the child should have a mother and father [heterosexual], adult leaders should be straights too. Psyche of children is very weak thing, it's like a sponge, the absorbent environment. Children may grow weaklings and so on.
But the most important and dangerous thing is pedophilia among adult leaders of boy scouts.
But the most important and dangerous thing is pedophilia among adult leaders of boy scouts.
4
Moral principles do not ebb and flow with the wind. They are never out of style and should never succumb to immoral behavior or attitudes. Scouting was designed for a specific purpose: Take Moral principles and God out of Scouting, you have nothing....and scouting is DEAD!! Any church who supports these fundamental changes goes against their own principles that God has ordained. I will not support Scouting if they "change with the times". This change is destructive to the mission of Scouting as it was created, and I will not support changes in values..just because 5% of the population chooses immoral behavior as a lifestyle.
6
Many people don't agree that discrimination is a "moral principle".
4
The Boy Scout Movement is going to lose its global integrity, along with such decision supposed to be taken.
2
Robert M. Gates may be applauded; he is advocating that bigotry be dropped.
Furthermore, for those of us who are, and have been, in leadership positions, such skills have nothing to do with our sexual orientation. However, some conservative-thinking persons may never change since changing involves skills that are unknown to them.
Bravo, Mr. Gates!
Furthermore, for those of us who are, and have been, in leadership positions, such skills have nothing to do with our sexual orientation. However, some conservative-thinking persons may never change since changing involves skills that are unknown to them.
Bravo, Mr. Gates!
4
It's about time. There's no reason to tell any normal adult that he or she cannot be a leader in any field if they have the qualifications and the ability to do the job. Gays and lesbians are not some strange species of human. We are people with the same worries, joys, wishes and aspirations that every other person has.
8
About time. My scoutmaster in 1969-1971 was openly gay and an amazing mentor and leader. He loved boys just like I love boys, with no sexual intent or weird vibes. I can't believe this absurd prejudice still reigns among the Mormons and other denominations. But so it does. At least we're making progress.
27
Agreed, Jim....
I must admit I was saddened by the (predictable) response from the right wing of the Boy Scouts, who, in an interview on NPR yesterday, lamented having "gay scout leaders around young boys".....implying if you're gay, you MUST be a pedophile.
The hatred of the so called Christian wing of America is beyond anything Jesus taught, and yet, they can't begin to acknowledge that.
I must admit I was saddened by the (predictable) response from the right wing of the Boy Scouts, who, in an interview on NPR yesterday, lamented having "gay scout leaders around young boys".....implying if you're gay, you MUST be a pedophile.
The hatred of the so called Christian wing of America is beyond anything Jesus taught, and yet, they can't begin to acknowledge that.
4
Gate's saying "we must deal with the world as it is, not as we might wish it to be" seems oddly phrased to me. It assumes that he and unnamed others apparently in authority in the organization do not wish to allow gay people to be scout leaders, but are being grimly forced to do so by the was the "world is".
I suppose that lets him straddle, so to speak, the distance between people who would include gay persons in organizations and bigots; he "allows" the one while his "we" is certainly the other.
I suppose that lets him straddle, so to speak, the distance between people who would include gay persons in organizations and bigots; he "allows" the one while his "we" is certainly the other.
14
I have a 19 year old friend that was kicked of scouts for this same issue 4 months ago today. BSA needs some change.
10
I am suprised that you did not interview gay Eagle Scouts who feel that Boy Scouts were the best part of growing up and want to pass the goals of the organization to the next generation by becoming leaders and mentors to the next generation.
The people who do not want gay leaders were ones who had a very bad Scouting experience in their lives.
The people who do not want gay leaders were ones who had a very bad Scouting experience in their lives.
5
I'm a 75 y.o. Eagle Scout and I applaud Mr. Gates decision. The reason for the BSA's prohibition of gay scout leaders was always an attempt to prevent scouts from being molested by pedophiles in a time when gay men couldn't be "out" without being ostracized, driven from the community or worse. Now, not only gay people but "gayness " is out of the closet and people, mostly, no longer fear that gays are immoral pedophiles and it is s time that BSA caught up.
16
Good for Mr. Gates. This is a courageous move that I applaud. I am sorry the BSA is caught in the cultural cross fire on this issue. If the BSA changes its policies, many churches or denominations that sponsor scout troops will withdraw and leave troops without a home. We saw this when the organization allowed youth to come out as gay. So if the BSA does what Mr. Gates suggests (and I applaud) then there will be bad consequences for the organization. But if it does not change, the BSA is labeled biased and many parents and more liberal churches withdraw support. Polls show the fear of gays and gay marriage is rapidly receding even among younger evangelical people and for good reason. People do not choose their sexual orientations. An openly gay man or woman is probably less mixed up than a gay man who tries to suppress or hide his sexual identity. Under BSA has safe scouting principles taught today all adult leaders must agree to undergo criminal background checks and no adult leader is supposed to be left alone with a scout unless he is the parent. Scouting is not as popular today as it was at its peak. Many consider it old fashioned and quant. But I know of no other youth organization that does a better job teaching leadership, traditional values, and a love of the outdoors-- when the units are run by qualified and trained volunteers committed to the good of scouts and coed venture crews.
4
So here's the thing about organizations like like the Boy Scouts getting behind gay rights: they could done this a few years ago when it was more difficult and required more community leadership.
If an openly gay adolescent turns eighteen before he's finished his Eagle Scout course, thereby becoming a gay man, is he currently permitted to complete certification?
3
Scouts automatically age out at 18, no matter what. If they have not completed their Eagle at that point, then they can't complete it. This is a deadline that is independent of sexual preference status. Scouts do know about the rule, however.
No. Not because he's gay but because he has turned 18. All Eagle requirements have to be completed prior to the scout's 18th birthday.
1
If the BSA wants to keep their policy, they just need to stop taking public funds. Most groups receive taxpayer money, and all of the national events associated with the jamboree are funded by federal agencies. You can't claim to be a private organization if you rely on taxpayer funds. You can't have it both ways.
5
While I think Gates is moving in the right direction, I find it extremely disappointing that a former Defense Secretary would even take a job leading an organization that discriminates against gay people.
5
Hey, do the Girl Scouts allow fathers to take the girls camping in the woods for the weekend? It isn't a question of whether the guy is a pedophile; it is a simple matter of avoiding the appearance of impropriety that arises when a man takes a vulnerable youth into the woods and there is an unavoidable presumption that the child could be an object of his sexual lust. How is it different in the case of a gay Boy Scout leader? We don't have to imagine him as a sexual predator to hold that he shouldn't be left alone in the woods with our sons. It's a simple question of impropriety.
9
My understanding is that Girl Scout troops DO in fact allow men to be troop leaders, to participate in camping trips, etc. They have very sensible rules in place, such as requiring multiple adults to supervise these trips, and *no* adult (whether male or female) is allowed to be alone one-on-one with a scout in the manner you're suggesting.
There are schools, youth organizations, etc., all over the country with similar common-sense rules for adult interactions with children. There is absolutely no reason why the Boy Scouts couldn't follow suit.
There are schools, youth organizations, etc., all over the country with similar common-sense rules for adult interactions with children. There is absolutely no reason why the Boy Scouts couldn't follow suit.
10
Mjah56,
The implication is that if you are gay, you can't be trusted around members of the same sex, especially if they are not adults / underage boys who (gasp) may look up to the Leadership skills the Boy Scouts are supposed to teach.
Your specious attempt to muddy the waters with a non-analogous comment about girl scouts and their FATHERS is an abject failure of reasoning.
The implication is that if you are gay, you can't be trusted around members of the same sex, especially if they are not adults / underage boys who (gasp) may look up to the Leadership skills the Boy Scouts are supposed to teach.
Your specious attempt to muddy the waters with a non-analogous comment about girl scouts and their FATHERS is an abject failure of reasoning.
1
Safety of our youth is the only concern. I agree.
1
My son is an Eagle Scout. My Daughter is the President of a Venture Crew, that is co-ed Boy Scouts. My husband is wood badge trained, the highest level of BSA training. We're all in on scouting but we would love to see an end to discrimination towards gay people. Being gay does not make one predatory. I've sensed that scouting is perceived to be narrow minded, exclusionary. That's not going to work over time. My brother-in-law used to be VP of the National Jaycees when they fought against women joining. It rather left an impression on me. We don't want to be on the wrong side of history.
22
"we must deal with the world as it is, not as we might wish it to be...”
Sounds really strange coming from a Defense Secretary and consummate DC insider who spent his entire career (and our tax dollars) trying to forge the world in our image.
Maybe it's all about expiating sin.
Sounds really strange coming from a Defense Secretary and consummate DC insider who spent his entire career (and our tax dollars) trying to forge the world in our image.
Maybe it's all about expiating sin.
6
Admittedly, I was only involved with the Scouts for a short time (less than a month), but it still hurts me to see them being targeted in this manner. Whichever way the final decision goes, it will likely bring about the destruction of the Boy Scouts as we know them. If they choose to keep their current policies intact, the government will litigate them into oblivion. If they change their policies, parents and religious organizations (most significantly, as the article points out, the Church) will be less willing to put their children into scouting. A policy that allowed individual troops to set their own rules for membership and leadership roles within the organization would likely get struck down by the Supreme Court so long as its current Obama-appointed majority remains in place, and it would probably cause a schism within the Scouts wherein some troops would not be able to associate with others. No matter what happens, it won't be long before scouting is just a memory. :( I wish I'd had the chance to be more involved with it before we reached this point. My own sons probably will not be, even though they'll be raised in a church where participation in scouting is practically an ordinance in and of itself.
7
Religious participation is dropping like a rock. The vast majority Americans are loosing their prejudice against LGBT people. In fact, many Christians are ... well .. Christian ... in their outlook towards LGBT people. The Episcopal Church has long had gay priests.
The Boy Scouts are going along with the world they live in. Trying to hang onto the past would not serve them.
The Boy Scouts are going along with the world they live in. Trying to hang onto the past would not serve them.
2
"current Obama-appointed majority" in the Supreme Court?!? If only that were true.
9
Donald,
The Catholic Church has had Gay Priest for Decades....
Of course, they couldn't come out and admit their lifestyle choices, now could they? Perhaps it explains the myriad of molestation claims the Catholic Church has had to pay out for their attempts to cover up things....
The Catholic Church has had Gay Priest for Decades....
Of course, they couldn't come out and admit their lifestyle choices, now could they? Perhaps it explains the myriad of molestation claims the Catholic Church has had to pay out for their attempts to cover up things....
Good for him. It's a smart financial move, but that stance took guts because of the vocal opposition he will receive. Now, if only the Boy Scouts could follow the lead of the Girl Scouts and also stop discriminating against non-theists. If they could do both, they could ease their membership problems and see a surge of talent joining the ranks. Sadly, I don't think many churches, which legally hold the assets of chartered units and upon whom many troops depend for tax exemption, will allow this.
11
Follow the "lead" of the Girl Scouts? You might want to check your facts, Southwinds. Girl Scout membership is less than half what it was before the organization abandoned its values and admitted avowed atheists and practicing homosexuals. A recent article in The Chronicle of Philanthropy, a decidedly liberal publication, predicted the Girl Scouts would cease to exist in ten years.
2
Jl,
So, you attempt to link the membership of Girl Scouts to some ill defined 'values' as proof that the Boy Scouts should continue to discriminate???
And of this alleged fact, you provide no proof??
It appears you, sir, should be the one 'checking facts' and not attempting to link things that have no causation.
So, you attempt to link the membership of Girl Scouts to some ill defined 'values' as proof that the Boy Scouts should continue to discriminate???
And of this alleged fact, you provide no proof??
It appears you, sir, should be the one 'checking facts' and not attempting to link things that have no causation.
The Boy Scouts won't last much longer than the Girl Scouts. Donations are down, troops are shrinking or losing sponsors.
1
Good call, Mr. Gates.
12
What is meant by "openly gay"? Most people are openly discrete. We can make assumptions about their preferences, but nonparticipants don't know. Many of us probably have gay male or female acquaintances or colleagues without being aware of their preferences. We don't find behavior objectionable that we are unaware of.
6
And for the reasons you outline, I believe there is no doubt there are already gay ("openly" and "discrete" as you term it) leaders in the Scouts, whether Scout leadership or sponsors know it and/ or want to admit it. And this is quite apart from the local leeadership who openly employed a gay camp counselor in public defiance of the national office and national policy. In part, Gates' admonishment of accepting "what is" applies to present leadership as well as future. The public face of scouting is partially catching up to the private.
1
"openly gay" means having a public relationship with someone of your same gender. That means they cannot be married to someone of the same gender, etc.
2
" That means they cannot be married to someone of the same gender, etc"
That 'standard' is Thankfully on it's way out the door, surgres.
That 'standard' is Thankfully on it's way out the door, surgres.
2
Wouldn't the more appropriate response to a ban on gay scout leaders in the Boy Scouts be for those who disagree with its institutional policies to create a new organization that operates in accordance with their own beliefs? Why is it necessary to force the Boy Scouts into this predicament? One possible answer is that the people attacking the Scouts are motivated more by hatred for those with whom they disagree than by a desire to serve.
13
BSA receives numerous forms of public assistance. As a US Taxpayer, I object to the BSAs discriminatory membership policies and believe that I have standing to demand that they change them. If they were willing to be solely privately supported, my objections would only extend to teaching my son that they are a discriminatory organization to be avoided.
15
Why? Because the BSA pushes its way into the public sphere and frequently wants to make use of public facilities. They are perfectly free to restrict their activities to private homes and advertise themselves as an anti gay anti secular group much like the westboro baptist church. They in fact believe in the same thing.
16
Sorry but having served as a Scout leader - and having the honor of being the parent two Eagle Scouts - it is time that Scouts not only serve all boys but also allow all to serve who have something to offer these boys. The idea of a parent being refused the opportunity to contribute to Scouting simply because of their sexual orientation is little different than what happened in America 50 to 100 years ago when some prevented African-Americans or Japanese-Americans from contributing based on prejudicial views then cloaked in "religious" beliefs.
Remember, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints refused to ordain men of black African descent to its priesthood prior to 1978 but thanks to a revelation on the priesthood they have since changed, and today the Church unequivocally condemns all racism, past and present, in any form.
It is not about being motivated by hatred, it's about bringing an organization I am proud to have served with into the 21st century. My Christian faith tells me so.
Remember, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints refused to ordain men of black African descent to its priesthood prior to 1978 but thanks to a revelation on the priesthood they have since changed, and today the Church unequivocally condemns all racism, past and present, in any form.
It is not about being motivated by hatred, it's about bringing an organization I am proud to have served with into the 21st century. My Christian faith tells me so.
13
if they are willing to lose thier non profit status then they can make their own rules. is this the bottom line? other than that, an org can chose their members. correct? or is this bottom feeder stalin?
3
I believe Mr. Gates' decision was the right one, but I'm perplexed as to why he felt he had to make it. I thought that the Boy Scouts was a private organization, free to choose the criteria for its membership, free of judicial review. Why his concern about a potential legal ruling ordering the acceptance of gays as leaders?
2
There are no more private organizations left in America. Through grants, tax breaks, partnerships, etc., virtually every organization can be reached by clever social justice warriors and their legions of lawyers. Back when we thought of BSA as a means of promoting wholesome American values, we made their founding buildings historical landmarks, we gave them grants, we integrated them into the public schools. And all of those privileges are now being used as a club to make the BSA bend to the will of the LBGT community. At this point, even if the BSA decided to forego all of the public benefits, they still would be stuck in endless litigation. Welcome to the new normal!
4
"Bend to the will of the LGBT community?" Uh - no. Rather, bend to the will of those of us who demand equity and mutual respect in American society. (I am straight, FYI, but fully support equity among ALL Americans.)
3
Finally. However, the statement “we must deal with the world as it is, not as we might wish it to be" suggests the move will be made only with great reluctance and implies there still is, and likely will continue to be, an inherent bias in the organization against gays. Disappointing.
15
Yes, I thought that too. Knowing Gates on this issue, I think it is an inartful, very inartful way of saying "We must learn to respect each others differences" or "We must accept each other", something like that. I expect that he will clarify in the future.
2
I prefer "the world as it is" to the crippled smallness of homophobia.
20
I think that the time of society-wide private institutions such as the Boy Scouts is over. I think that this is tragic, but nonetheless true. The cultural assaults on the Boy Scouts of America go far beyond this one issue, of which it is one symptom.
The general social consensus that was represented in just one sphere by the Boy Scouts has broken down irretrievably. The Church-sponsored Scouts such as those under Mormon and Catholic auspices should decouple from the dying national organization and operate their programs free of these cultural denunciations, which go not just to "gay issues", but to the very purposes of Scouting themselves.
The message to Scouts, but much more seriously, to the Churches themselves is-- you will agree or perish. The intent is that no institution get through the coming "bottleneck" uncrushed. The fight is bigger than Scouting, but includes it. A much smaller national organization can fade away, or not, and nobody else can care anymore.
The general social consensus that was represented in just one sphere by the Boy Scouts has broken down irretrievably. The Church-sponsored Scouts such as those under Mormon and Catholic auspices should decouple from the dying national organization and operate their programs free of these cultural denunciations, which go not just to "gay issues", but to the very purposes of Scouting themselves.
The message to Scouts, but much more seriously, to the Churches themselves is-- you will agree or perish. The intent is that no institution get through the coming "bottleneck" uncrushed. The fight is bigger than Scouting, but includes it. A much smaller national organization can fade away, or not, and nobody else can care anymore.
14
The days have long since past where we thought gays have any more predilection to abuse children than heteroexual pedeophiles. We are now older and wiser. There can be no justification for a ban on gay scout leaders. Religious groups are entitled to their beliefs about homosexuality but the scout are not a religious organization.
28
The Girl Scouts are doing quite well as a strong, national organization without discrimination-- and without relying heavily on sponsorships from conservative religious organizations. As I understand it, they support their activities through a national foundation, local fundraising efforts, and sponsorships from corporations and local businesses.
For everyone wringing their hands about how the Catholic and Mormon churches will stop sponsoring Boy Scout troops now, I'd say maybe it's past time for those troops to find other sponsors, too. It's a wide world out there.
For everyone wringing their hands about how the Catholic and Mormon churches will stop sponsoring Boy Scout troops now, I'd say maybe it's past time for those troops to find other sponsors, too. It's a wide world out there.
113
There is a movement within that organization which can hardly be interpreted to support your statement. A revival is occurring that shakes off the notion of an urbane orientation at the expense of traditional outdoor scouting foundation.
1
There are various steps and forms to start a unit (troop, pack, crew). Oddly enough, special exceptions are made for chartering units with Mormon churches. You need fewer boys and fewer leaders. Then again, the church also considers Boy Scouts to be its definitive youth group. It may have been a decision to bolster membership. Then again, if they followed a model closer to the Girl Scouts, who don't discriminate against LGBTQ and non-thesists, I bet they'd have an easier time nationally with fund raising and membership. They might lose some of the churches as partners, but I suspect in reality they aren't always as monolithic as people assume.
2
"are doing quite well as a strong, national organization without discrimination-- and without relying heavily on sponsorships from conservative religious organizations." But with millions and millions in cookie revenues.
Mature, sensible adults with the self-control to establish and observe boundaries are appropriate leaders for children. Immature and troubled people are not.
That has nothing to do with being gay or straight.
Now--where are the troops that welcome agnostics and atheists?
Scouting should be a secular activity, and the only reason its not is because theres a dearth of sponsoring organizations. Scouting should be run out of city halls and not out of church basements.
That has nothing to do with being gay or straight.
Now--where are the troops that welcome agnostics and atheists?
Scouting should be a secular activity, and the only reason its not is because theres a dearth of sponsoring organizations. Scouting should be run out of city halls and not out of church basements.
22
Amen to Dr. Gates!! As a leftist Christian, my religion tells me to respect the human rights of all people, who are created equally in the eyes of God and the law. As a mother of a Boy Scout, I am so grateful that discrimination will soon end in the BSA before my son becomes Eagle. As the co-lead of the New York Chapter of Scouts for Equality, I say fight on!!
16
Bob Gates, once again, shows himself to be a national asset. Some commenters call this a half measure. This is progress and Gates had to pick his fight. If he had taken on the Mormons and the Roman Catholic Church now, he world have come up empty. It's maddening, no doubt, but this is far from over.
10
I agree: The right leader at the right time. There is no need to take on the churches, they would, and should, have complete control over the leadership of the units which they sponsor.
3
The boy scouts when founded in great britain did not require religious belief, it did not have the religious trappings. Somehow, the BSA got hijacked by the religious types, and turned it into "Christian" scouts or something along those lines. Only a religiously muddled person would assume that an atheist or agnostic kid can't be moral, and in terms of banning openly LGBT scouts and leaders, do they ban other sins, too? Do Scout Leaders have to prove they go to church (or belong to one?). Can a scoutmaster be single, and if so does he have to prove that he is a virgin? Does a scoutmaster have to show he is not divorced? The BSA is classic example of why people look at religious people in disbelief these days, why young people see only a bunch of ill educated bigots, because the hypocrisy is clear, if gays are assumed to be sinners condemned by the bible, then they should stamp out other sins, too, scoutmasters should not be divorced, scoutmasters should have to sign an oath that they didn't have sex before marriage, if the dominant religious faith n the area is catholic, they have to swear they never used birth control....and pretty soon it shows how idiotic the "Christian" scout thing is. Like so many, they have reduced religious belief to being anti gay, and that is pathetic.
39
Some people have blues eyes, some have brown.
Some are gay, some are not.
This issue similar to someone in the south having a separate drinking fountain for African Americans in the 80's. It is utterly ridiculous and far beyond it's time.
The human race has to learn not to be driven by fear somehow, not much good comes from it.
The fact that people are even discussing such an outdated and irrelevant "issue" is really sad indictment about the maturity and mental health of this country.
Some are gay, some are not.
This issue similar to someone in the south having a separate drinking fountain for African Americans in the 80's. It is utterly ridiculous and far beyond it's time.
The human race has to learn not to be driven by fear somehow, not much good comes from it.
The fact that people are even discussing such an outdated and irrelevant "issue" is really sad indictment about the maturity and mental health of this country.
20
I would not allow my 12 year old daughter to go on a camping trip with a 30 year old Male. I would not allow my 13 yer old son to go camping with a 30 year old female. And I will not allow either to be placed in the same situation with a homosexual for the same reason. I am not a homophobic I am a protective parent doing my job.
I have seen the way heterosexual men sometimes behave around teenage girls and homosexual men are no different. It is to much additional risk. At least be honest about the issue.
I have seen the way heterosexual men sometimes behave around teenage girls and homosexual men are no different. It is to much additional risk. At least be honest about the issue.
27
Conflating child abuse with homosexuality does not serve your argument well.
52
The fact is that Scout leader guidelines are generally set to ensure that no child is left alone in the sole care of any leader. There is always a witness or chaperone whenever leaders and youth members are together - to protect both from abuse or misunderstanding.
Being aware of the rights of children in your care as an adult leader is essential. Ensuring that your actions are never able to be misunderstood requires constant vigilance.
The attitude of fear in this post is inhibiting to the healthy development of children. They must be allowed to explore and challenge themselves - and I don't mean sexually at that age of course! - but parents and youth organisations are focussing so heavily on the very small risk of abuse or litigation that the beneficial learning opportunities offered through activities independent of parental supervision are lost. We need the right balance between care and allowing kids to learn to be responsible for themselves.
Being aware of the rights of children in your care as an adult leader is essential. Ensuring that your actions are never able to be misunderstood requires constant vigilance.
The attitude of fear in this post is inhibiting to the healthy development of children. They must be allowed to explore and challenge themselves - and I don't mean sexually at that age of course! - but parents and youth organisations are focussing so heavily on the very small risk of abuse or litigation that the beneficial learning opportunities offered through activities independent of parental supervision are lost. We need the right balance between care and allowing kids to learn to be responsible for themselves.
17
What a sad misguided comment. All organisations like BSA have rules and policies to minimise risks of abuse from a minority of adults. Homosexuality is irrelevant in that regard. What matters is ensuring caring adults are looking after your child and following safeguarding procedures whilst giving young people the freedom to enjoy activities with their peers, male or female.
12
A lot of people question the conviction of Gates when he says, We must deal with the world as it is, not as we might wish it be. But the thing is, in that situation, thats diplomacy, and we forget that thats ok. Its probably the most salient thing he could have said to get his more religiously conservative members to wake up and accept reality: even if they want to hold onto their beliefs, their beliefs cant be accepted in contemporary governance, and will cripple the reputation of the organization they care about. Thats a better way to run an organization than to say, you are all a bunch of stupid bigots. If you think hes spineless for saying that, try leading an organization through conflict. Making people feel stupid and ignorant wont get you too far.
18
I suppose that statement might be considered "diplomatic" if you're only addressing an extremely right-wing audience, without any expectation that your words will be reported in the news or filtered out to the outside world.
To many other people, however, the insinuation that "we" would prefer the world without gay people in it is hardly diplomatic. It's quite offensive and presumptuous, actually.
To many other people, however, the insinuation that "we" would prefer the world without gay people in it is hardly diplomatic. It's quite offensive and presumptuous, actually.
11
I am an Eagle Scout and I continue to see this through the eyes of a libertarian - I'm neither homophobic nor progressive. I won't persecute you for who you are, but please be respectful enough of me not to tell me all the sordid details of your love life. I won't share mine. There are more pressing issues facing our world besides who is sleeping with whom (or how).
I have been embarrassed by the BSA's stance since the Supreme Court battle. They chose to fight for their legal rights to decide for themselves. In theory that is/was a legitimate legal argument, but they lost sight of the bigger picture of reality - the world's opinion on the matter was changing or had already changed. In the end, the court battle and subsequent fallout were enormously costly in both dollars and good will.
These commentaries prove it.
The BSA in which my father, brother, and I each earned Eagle Scout had little or no time for in-depth discussions on sexual choices - much less any brow-beating on which way to think. In those days, the organization's focus was on outdoorsmanship, environmentalism, community service, and developing tomorrow's leaders. These noncontroversial and well-respected focuses filled the plate. Why did declaring one's sexual orientation ever become as important? The vaguely worded "morally straight" oath allows for avoiding a hard line on any issue (sexuality included) in favor of the basic concepts of fair play, respect for others, and personal integrity.
I have been embarrassed by the BSA's stance since the Supreme Court battle. They chose to fight for their legal rights to decide for themselves. In theory that is/was a legitimate legal argument, but they lost sight of the bigger picture of reality - the world's opinion on the matter was changing or had already changed. In the end, the court battle and subsequent fallout were enormously costly in both dollars and good will.
These commentaries prove it.
The BSA in which my father, brother, and I each earned Eagle Scout had little or no time for in-depth discussions on sexual choices - much less any brow-beating on which way to think. In those days, the organization's focus was on outdoorsmanship, environmentalism, community service, and developing tomorrow's leaders. These noncontroversial and well-respected focuses filled the plate. Why did declaring one's sexual orientation ever become as important? The vaguely worded "morally straight" oath allows for avoiding a hard line on any issue (sexuality included) in favor of the basic concepts of fair play, respect for others, and personal integrity.
29
I am an Eagle Scout as well, but I cannot understand your comments on "declaring one's sexuality". I know when I was involved in scouting, I talked many times with fellow scouts about my girlfriend, for example. By doing so, I was "declaring my sexuality.' To be openly gay without persecution is to simply be able to talk about the the basic realities of your life. Not even that, really; it is to be able to have those things simply known about you. That's a far cry from "brow-beating".
For example, I'd be genuinely surprised if you were unaware of the relationship status of your scoutmaster. I know mine was married. His wife and family were active parts of our troop. He never told me "all the sordid details" of his love life. Rather, he simply had the freedom to live his life without discrimination. If his partner had been a man, he wouldn't have been able to be our scoutmaster, or he would have had to attempt to hide that somehow.
Hardly the "live and let live" mindset.
For example, I'd be genuinely surprised if you were unaware of the relationship status of your scoutmaster. I know mine was married. His wife and family were active parts of our troop. He never told me "all the sordid details" of his love life. Rather, he simply had the freedom to live his life without discrimination. If his partner had been a man, he wouldn't have been able to be our scoutmaster, or he would have had to attempt to hide that somehow.
Hardly the "live and let live" mindset.
19
So at your meetings, your scoutmaster told you about the upcoming campout, reminded you to plan it with your patrol, and oh... by the way... the Senior Patrol Leader will be leading a presentation on why "gays" shouldn't be allowed in Scouts?
I doubt it. Or I certainly hope not.
I'm not saying everyone's mind is (or should be) turned off. I'm saying that allowing the meeting go into this territory in any formal setting is completely inappropriate, regardless of whether you're preaching about the exciting life of homosexuals or about how quickly the jock thinks he could bed the cheerleading squad. ...And, clearly, the national organization's decision to take a stand, publically, has been extremely costly... and unnecessary. Surely you see that.
By the way, the life lesson is that this same sort of water-cooler talk is enough to get you fired from most jobs. It might be a good thing to teach Scouts what subjects are likely to be considered "out on thin ice" when you decide to indulge yourself in lieu of good common sense.
Granted, there is no Common Sense merit badge.
Between you and me... yes. Live and let live.
I doubt it. Or I certainly hope not.
I'm not saying everyone's mind is (or should be) turned off. I'm saying that allowing the meeting go into this territory in any formal setting is completely inappropriate, regardless of whether you're preaching about the exciting life of homosexuals or about how quickly the jock thinks he could bed the cheerleading squad. ...And, clearly, the national organization's decision to take a stand, publically, has been extremely costly... and unnecessary. Surely you see that.
By the way, the life lesson is that this same sort of water-cooler talk is enough to get you fired from most jobs. It might be a good thing to teach Scouts what subjects are likely to be considered "out on thin ice" when you decide to indulge yourself in lieu of good common sense.
Granted, there is no Common Sense merit badge.
Between you and me... yes. Live and let live.
Robert Gates' background with the Department of Defense may be especially helpful to him as he leads the BSA and faces the war ahead with the so-called Christian Right, Mormons and other groups opposed.
To further head off the battle, he would be better off to formalize his recommendation to the BSA Board.
"There are none so blind as those who will not see."
To further head off the battle, he would be better off to formalize his recommendation to the BSA Board.
"There are none so blind as those who will not see."
6
Wow.
Taking a page from the conservative playbook, he is framing it in terms of religious liberty. Why should the Mormons or the Roman Catholic Church set the standards for who is morally acceptible for a troop sponsored by Unitarians or Episcopalians, both denominations with openly gay pastors?
Taking a page from the conservative playbook, he is framing it in terms of religious liberty. Why should the Mormons or the Roman Catholic Church set the standards for who is morally acceptible for a troop sponsored by Unitarians or Episcopalians, both denominations with openly gay pastors?
6
Actually, he is saying the exact opposite: that we need to move to a membership policy where Unitarians and Episcopalians churches can set the standards for the leaders of the units that they sponsor. Indeed, it is already thus, except for prohibitions based two major criteria now determined by the national office: sexual identity and faith in God. Gates is advocating the repeal of the first, but not the second.
2
My sense of surprise could only be captured with an expletive so I'll suffice it to say that as a former Cub Scout this sends a strong and unambiguous message to the boys in our society. It tells them that serving other people and remembering who you are go hand in hand; that effective leaders demonstrate authenticity; that to be a man is not about chopping wood but about being responsible.
10
I was a scout and frankly I have always been uneasy with the paramilitary aspect of scouting.
I didn't like it as a scout and I like it even less now. There was alway a slight whiff of 1930's Fascism or Marxism that lingered around the organization.
I find it particularly chilling that Robert M. Gates former head of the CIA i the leader of the BSA. It was then in the 1950's and is too much still today a training ground for soldiers.
My local troop was in a local Protestant church and those of us who were Catholic were definitely second class citizens.
The idea that religions think they can decide the sexuality of scout leaders is chilling.
I had some great outdoor experiences in scouting but those were more about camping, nature and science than they were about the paramilitary aspects of scouting with the possible exception of marksmanship. Skill with a rifle is how I won respect in the troop and was a very individual skill not at all collective.
I didn't like it as a scout and I like it even less now. There was alway a slight whiff of 1930's Fascism or Marxism that lingered around the organization.
I find it particularly chilling that Robert M. Gates former head of the CIA i the leader of the BSA. It was then in the 1950's and is too much still today a training ground for soldiers.
My local troop was in a local Protestant church and those of us who were Catholic were definitely second class citizens.
The idea that religions think they can decide the sexuality of scout leaders is chilling.
I had some great outdoor experiences in scouting but those were more about camping, nature and science than they were about the paramilitary aspects of scouting with the possible exception of marksmanship. Skill with a rifle is how I won respect in the troop and was a very individual skill not at all collective.
7
You were chilled, frequently, it appears. Perhaps you should invest in a coat.
Your good experiences were always supposed to be the focus. ...And in fact, the BSA has rules and regulations in place that prohibit paramilitary activity. There is no "close order drill" or marching training permitted, and there is even a ban on wearing military uniforms.
Your good experiences were always supposed to be the focus. ...And in fact, the BSA has rules and regulations in place that prohibit paramilitary activity. There is no "close order drill" or marching training permitted, and there is even a ban on wearing military uniforms.
12
Clearly you were not in the right Troop. There is no room for "paramilitary activities" in today's scouting (or in my days as a scout 40 years ago). Do we shoot? Sure, but only as a sport and under strict safety supervision. Many teenage boys like the shooting sports (rifle, shotgun, and archery), but if they don't there is plenty of other thing to do. Sometimes we clean up the environment and play frisbee. Does that make us modern day hippies?
4
If they actually do this, I might start buying their stupid popcorn again instead of having to tell whatever tiny Cub Scout who shows up at my door that I can no longer support the Boy Scouts because of their positions on gays.
10
There's no need to tell little boys why you won't donate to them. They're likely only vaguely aware of the policy, if at all, and there's nothing they can do about it anyway, and they won't understand your rejection but instead take it personally, as kids always do.
Take you feelings out on the adults; just give the kids $5 or $10 and be an adult about it.
Take you feelings out on the adults; just give the kids $5 or $10 and be an adult about it.
Thank goodness Gates makes it clear he's not proposing to allow gay scout leaders in order to do the right thing, but merely out of self-interest. "We must deal with the world as it is, not as we might wish it to be," says scout president Gates. What does this former CIA director and Defense Secretary long for, exactly? Centuries more of teaching children that LGBT folks are lesser humans? While the rest of us dream of equality, that's his wished-for world?
"Any other alternative will be the end of us," he says. And thus, decades of activism have paid off. Because organizations sworn to antidiscrimination rules have long stopped funding the scouts. And thus has Gates been dragged reluctantly, petulantly, into the 21st century.
"Any other alternative will be the end of us," he says. And thus, decades of activism have paid off. Because organizations sworn to antidiscrimination rules have long stopped funding the scouts. And thus has Gates been dragged reluctantly, petulantly, into the 21st century.
10
Why would they want to turn the Boy Scouts into the Catholic Church?
4
They don't. But many Catholic parishes have scout troops using their facilities or in more close associations and sponsorship. Interestingly, the church does not teach that gay people are sinners. It basically says they should be celibate--lay people, parish ministers, or staff, Catholic school teachers and priests and nuns. Adhering to church doctrine, if Catholic leadersrship is honest, they should not ban gay Scout leaders. Again, adhering to doctrine, they may see themselves as justified in banning gay leaders who are married or openly live together. It will be interesting to see what they do. They certainly haven't imposed any ecclesiastical ban on gay scouts
.
Just to leave no doubt, my post is couched in terms of church doctrine, but is not meant to convey I believe in such doctrine. I belong to a liberal parish and still consider myself Catholic.I also voted in favor of same-sex marriage when it was put to referendum in my state. Since it was approved in my state and county and I live in a heavily Catholic state and county, there were plenty of us Catholics out there voting in favor. Maybe the Catholic church will someday come a round to accepting "what is" as Mr. Gates terms it. Many of us go further, we embrace it. It is high time to celebrate diversity of every type and to understand that discrimination based on sexual orientation is every bit as pernicious as that based on race or gender.
.
Just to leave no doubt, my post is couched in terms of church doctrine, but is not meant to convey I believe in such doctrine. I belong to a liberal parish and still consider myself Catholic.I also voted in favor of same-sex marriage when it was put to referendum in my state. Since it was approved in my state and county and I live in a heavily Catholic state and county, there were plenty of us Catholics out there voting in favor. Maybe the Catholic church will someday come a round to accepting "what is" as Mr. Gates terms it. Many of us go further, we embrace it. It is high time to celebrate diversity of every type and to understand that discrimination based on sexual orientation is every bit as pernicious as that based on race or gender.
1
I'm a former scout and currently a scout leader, and have been active in working for this change in our unit and local council. While leaving this decision to the local organization chartering the troop or pack will allow discrimination to continue, it will also allow organizations such as the church sponsoring our Cub Scout Pack, which is an open and affirming congregation, to offer the many benefits available in scouting to anyone regardless of their sexual orientation or any other property. As long as each scouting council adopts and truly follows a hands-off policy, this is good news and a big step forward.
11
How can the Boy Scouts receive federal funding and still discriminate? Is there a constitutional violation there?
3
They do not receive federal funding AFAIK.
The Supreme Court ruled that, as a private club, they have a First Amendment Constitutional freedom of association right to decide for themselves who they will permit as members.
The Supreme Court ruled that, as a private club, they have a First Amendment Constitutional freedom of association right to decide for themselves who they will permit as members.
7
This Saturday, scouts from my troop will be participating in the annual Flag Placement ceremony at the Los Angeles National Cemetery, where they, along with about 2,000 Cub Scouts, Girl Scouts, Venture Scouts, and Sea Scouts, will honor the graves of 80,000 veterans from the Indian Wars to the most recent battles in Afghanistan. They will learn the meaning of Duty to Country and hopefully begin to understand what a gift their freedom is, and that that gift is often purchased in sacrifice. And on that hallowed ground, all this contention and strife on the internet will fall away as we leave our phones behind and focus on what the scouts do best: brotherhood, duty, and service. When you see the pictures on Memorial Day of row after row of waving flags in cemeteries across this nation, remember that tens of thousands of scouts placed them there, making sure that each and every veteran is named, saluted, and honored with the national colors at least once a year. These are the "values" I am trying to teach my scouts, and I would welcome anyone willing to take his or her time away from the holiday sales and barbecues this weekend to help me honor the fallen soldiers for whom Memorial day was named.
7
We might also remember that there are many gay soldiers who gave their lives as well.
Will you teach your scout troop the reality that some of those fallen soldiers that you so greatly honor and value were HOMOSEXUALS? or does that thought make you uncomfortable?
I was an average Boy Scout in my youth who learned independence, reverence, trustworthyness, patriotism, and skills that remained with me through life. We wore uniforms but were not indoctrinated into a military mindset. As a matter of fact, I registered at the Bayshore selective service office for the draft two days after my eighteenth birthday as a conscientious objector because of my Roman Catholic ubringing that taught us the most important commandment of "Thou Shalt NOT Kill". I still would have gone to Vietnam had I been drafted with the thoughts at the time of requesting duty as a helicopter pilot or medic. The boy scouts made me a wholesome young man that lasted many years.
Now I read about the acceptance of gays in the Boy Scouts. Initially, I had many thoughts about the subject when this article appeared a few hours ago but now have a more important thought to convey aside from issues of gays in the scouts.
Why is a former Defense Secretary leading the once wholesome Boy Scouts of America? Is this some gratuitous attempt at creating a path for uniformed youth to be conducted into the military?
The once wholesome character building Boy Scouts is now a fascist stepping stone to the military and frankly, I don't care much if Gays are in it or not.
Now I read about the acceptance of gays in the Boy Scouts. Initially, I had many thoughts about the subject when this article appeared a few hours ago but now have a more important thought to convey aside from issues of gays in the scouts.
Why is a former Defense Secretary leading the once wholesome Boy Scouts of America? Is this some gratuitous attempt at creating a path for uniformed youth to be conducted into the military?
The once wholesome character building Boy Scouts is now a fascist stepping stone to the military and frankly, I don't care much if Gays are in it or not.
2
Sexual orientation has nothing to do with the molestation of children. Not permitting gay scout masters is equivalent to not permitting heterosexual males to coach girls. Fear without basis should not be policy. The protection of children is of utmost importance, but don't malign gays.
12
Or it's equivalent to not permitting men to be Girl Scout leaders (they are permitted), or hetero women to be Boy Scout leaders (they also are).
Let's hope that Gates does a better job of leading the Boy Scouts of America than he did leading the Department of Defense. We know how Iraq and Afghanistan turned out....could not have been worse!
5
Question... which one of our Bush Presidents completely destroyed the stability of the Middle-East simply for profit? And at the same time destroyed the entire U.S economy.
What about the offensive bans on agnostic and atheist persons? In the furor about gay scout leaders, everyone loses sight of the other forms of discrimination in which the BSA engages.
28
Let the so-called Christians continue with their hatefulness. And let the real Christians continue to embrace as Jesus did all people. I am a gay man. And I don't really care if those hateful ministers continue to discriminate. And this is why: all those gay youth have access to the Internet. They see gay characters in sitcoms, in movies, on the Internet. And they know hatred when they are in it. Fortunately ours is a society that is rapidly making youth aware of just how hateful religious fanatics can be. And you can be sure, those churches/synagogues/mosques won't have much of a membership when the current crop of homophobes die off.
11
What Gates should have said,
We must deal with the world as it is, NOT AS SOME OF OUR MEMBERS AND SPONSORS MAY WISH IT TO BE.
End of story!
We must deal with the world as it is, NOT AS SOME OF OUR MEMBERS AND SPONSORS MAY WISH IT TO BE.
End of story!
8
End of Story?
Or End of Your Story! What is "fair" to some can be "unfair" to others.
Or End of Your Story! What is "fair" to some can be "unfair" to others.
2
To answer your question Cormic, the "[e]nd of Gates' story (remarks).
And to whom would the 'end of story' be unfair to? The churches that sponsor the Scouts? They are not forced to participate in sponsorship, neither are Scout members that oppose gays being in the Scouts.
You can call it fair or unfair. But as with Spike Lee's film, the issue is to 'do the right thing.' Besides, if excluding, as opposed to including people is a Scout value, then does that organization have the right values?
Put in another context, I'm sure you wouldn't want to be denied a job by an employer because of your immutable traits such as sexual orientation, race, color, sex, national origin, color, age or disability. But unlike the foregoing traits, would you be alright with excluding you because of your religion? After all, unlike the other immutable characteristics, subscribing to a particular faith or religious belief is not immutable.
And to whom would the 'end of story' be unfair to? The churches that sponsor the Scouts? They are not forced to participate in sponsorship, neither are Scout members that oppose gays being in the Scouts.
You can call it fair or unfair. But as with Spike Lee's film, the issue is to 'do the right thing.' Besides, if excluding, as opposed to including people is a Scout value, then does that organization have the right values?
Put in another context, I'm sure you wouldn't want to be denied a job by an employer because of your immutable traits such as sexual orientation, race, color, sex, national origin, color, age or disability. But unlike the foregoing traits, would you be alright with excluding you because of your religion? After all, unlike the other immutable characteristics, subscribing to a particular faith or religious belief is not immutable.
1
He also said that we should not fight to preserve that which we believe is right. On the count of three, everyone role over and the Boy Scouts of America will be saved.
Why is the Times allowing so many comments that are blatantly equating homosexuality with pedophilia (e.g., insisting that Scouts won't be safe with gay Scout leaders)?
This is an incredibly ignorant (not to mention offensive) statement. People who equate the two seriously need to educate themselves and get out of the 19th century.
For the millionth time, the fact that an adult man is gay does NOT mean that he has a sexual interest in underage boys. Plenty of pedophiles present themselves as heterosexual (think of Jerry Sandusky and similar high-profile abusers married to women), and prey on both boys and girls.
This is an incredibly ignorant (not to mention offensive) statement. People who equate the two seriously need to educate themselves and get out of the 19th century.
For the millionth time, the fact that an adult man is gay does NOT mean that he has a sexual interest in underage boys. Plenty of pedophiles present themselves as heterosexual (think of Jerry Sandusky and similar high-profile abusers married to women), and prey on both boys and girls.
24
If you contact the FBI they will be happy to tell you that even after you adjust for population percentages, pedophilia is overwhelmingly a male heterosexual perpetration. And it is almost always a heterosexual male in the primary or secondary family system. Not a stranger. They will also tell you that according to data the LGBT community is one of the safest environments for children in this country. The idea that homosexuals are predators is simply old-time homophobic slander which cannot hold up under scrutiny. But my how the heterosexual community defensively holds on to their baseless homophobia and continues to project their sins onto us.
I'm glad the Times is allowing those comments. It shows the lack of intellectual capacity of those who oppose equality and fair treatment. It shows the paranoid fantasies of those who would ban those scary gay people from being around kids.
As long as this is the best they can give, I think that justice and fairness have a chance.
As long as this is the best they can give, I think that justice and fairness have a chance.
Wherever discrimination for any reason begins tax exempt status should end. A tax exemption is defacto government support of an organization.
16
But John Warnock, what about all those churches and church affiliated organizations that are tax-exempt, yet still free to discriminate? Though I do wonder why they are tax exempt; perhaps you are saying they should not be? If so, I heartily agree.
1
I think the religious requirement is a bigger deal. Many boys have families that are unaffiliated with any organize religion. If you read the fine print, "none" children are not eligible to be Cub scouts or Boy Scouts.
13
MTL, There is no mandate that a boy's family be affiliated with any religious organization. Members need only to agree to the Declaration of Religious Principles included on the youth member application.
Nice to see that the BSA decided to no longer be on the wrong side of history.
We should all applaud the BSA for gesture of inclusion.
We should all applaud the BSA for gesture of inclusion.
1
I don't think the religious groups should object to this half step once they think through how limited it is.
The BSA will still have the ban on Atheists and Agnostics along with their ability to selectively discriminate against gays to keep their traditions of bigotry alive to twist future generations of scouts.
After all the hierarchy of BSA is more about the adults than it is the kids. Thankfully there are some troop level leaders who do embrace diversity, ignore the official bigotry and make scouting what it truly should be about: building democratic character. Fortunately my sons were in such a troop and benefited greatly from it. If only the BSA leadership would follow that example.
The BSA will still have the ban on Atheists and Agnostics along with their ability to selectively discriminate against gays to keep their traditions of bigotry alive to twist future generations of scouts.
After all the hierarchy of BSA is more about the adults than it is the kids. Thankfully there are some troop level leaders who do embrace diversity, ignore the official bigotry and make scouting what it truly should be about: building democratic character. Fortunately my sons were in such a troop and benefited greatly from it. If only the BSA leadership would follow that example.
8
As a former Cub Scout, Boy Scout, Explorer and Junior Assistant Scoutmaster in the '60s I can tell you that Mr. Gates has no need to lift any ban on gay leaders. There always have been, and always will be, gay scouts and gay leaders in scouting.
6
Yes, so true. But he does need to lift the farce of the ban.
1
I'm an Eagle Scout and a retired U.S. Navy officer. I applaud Secretary Gates's leadership on this important issue. Over the past two years I have come very close to turning in my Eagle badge to demonstrate my strong, personal belief the BSA's current policy encourages young Americans and future leaders to be discriminatory. Over the years I have known countless gay Scouts, Scout leaders and military leaders who have made enormous contributions to Scouting and to our nation's military. It saddens me greatly to know that the BSA policy has driven many fine people from Scouting in recent years. Today's news gives me hope that Scouting will once again be as inclusive as it was during the 20 plus years I was actively involved.
13
Bob Gates is the perfect person to deliver this most needed message.
I am an ASM with Troop 662 in Shaker Heights and we support the move to inclusion for the BSA. The BSA should thank their lucky stars that Bob Gates has sounded the end to such a tragic chapter in Scout History. The BSA does such great work, much of it needed in our electronically driven life of instant gratification. Social Media has eliminated respect ans patience in our youth. The BSA is the perfect antidote and we need all the help we can get which includes Gay Leaders.
I am an ASM with Troop 662 in Shaker Heights and we support the move to inclusion for the BSA. The BSA should thank their lucky stars that Bob Gates has sounded the end to such a tragic chapter in Scout History. The BSA does such great work, much of it needed in our electronically driven life of instant gratification. Social Media has eliminated respect ans patience in our youth. The BSA is the perfect antidote and we need all the help we can get which includes Gay Leaders.
9
Good for Gates..a visionary..a leader with conscience and dignity for all..
... “we must deal with the world as it is, not as we might wish it to be,” ....
That a really obnoxious remark. Who exactly is the us who might wish it to be "that" way? I'm not part of that us.
That a really obnoxious remark. Who exactly is the us who might wish it to be "that" way? I'm not part of that us.
7
Oh please! This is nothing more than another opportunity for Gates to promote scouting's insidious crypto-fascist agenda.
3
About FREAKING time! they have been so antiquated in their actions til now that they should be ashamed to call themselves "Scouts".. its TIME to live up to what scouting is actually about. TOLERANCE, Acceptance.Working together for the greater good.
the Girl Scouts are WAY ahead of you guys.. says a lot about what Boy Scouts are not doing well til now.
the Girl Scouts are WAY ahead of you guys.. says a lot about what Boy Scouts are not doing well til now.
8
It's ironic. The LGBT movement is now mainstream, yet the scouts are hesitant about gay leaders. The atheist/agnostic/unaffiliated percentage of the US population has now climbed well into double digits according to a recent Pew study, yet atheists are barred entirely from Scout participation.
Conversely, Scout numbers are declining - yet Scout leadership acts as if the BSA is in the position to be selective.
This organization must either change or wilt away.
Conversely, Scout numbers are declining - yet Scout leadership acts as if the BSA is in the position to be selective.
This organization must either change or wilt away.
7
Gates says:
"...we must deal with the world as it is, not as we might wish it to be..."
Which has a nice ring to it.
Yet, hasn't the LGBT movement made great strides by refusing to accept the world as it is, in the hope of changing it into something perceived to be better?
And, even though progressives find it hateful and repugnant, aren't conservatives attempting to do the same in their efforts to eradicate any acceptance of LGBT's?
The sooner we all realize that our personal hopes and dreams...and wishes...for a "better" future are what motivate all of us, we will be a lot closer to truly understanding each other.
"...we must deal with the world as it is, not as we might wish it to be..."
Which has a nice ring to it.
Yet, hasn't the LGBT movement made great strides by refusing to accept the world as it is, in the hope of changing it into something perceived to be better?
And, even though progressives find it hateful and repugnant, aren't conservatives attempting to do the same in their efforts to eradicate any acceptance of LGBT's?
The sooner we all realize that our personal hopes and dreams...and wishes...for a "better" future are what motivate all of us, we will be a lot closer to truly understanding each other.
2
There is a difference here, one that conservatives keep trying to obfuscate with arguments like "religious freedom" and the like. If LGBT people fight for the right not to be discriminated against, if they fight for the right to be treated as another human being would hope to be. The thing that should be obvious is that if we give LGBT basic legal and civil rights, it doesn't hurt anyone else, it doesn't deprive anyone of anything.........
What it does do is deprive those who don't like LGBT people the right to use the law as a weapon against gay people. It prevents some so called "Christian" from refusing to hire or firing an LGBT person, it stops a landlord from renting to someone simply because they are LGBT, which is a right we have given to other groups (it is already illegal to discriminate because of religion, race, sex or national origin or age). The problem is those who don't like LGBT people are arguing, not for rights, but to take away rights, the most basic one of all, to be treated as an equal human being. The irony of course is the same bible that they cite to justify their beliefs, also tells them to treat others as they themselves want to be treated, but I guess the bible they use doesn't include those words.
What it does do is deprive those who don't like LGBT people the right to use the law as a weapon against gay people. It prevents some so called "Christian" from refusing to hire or firing an LGBT person, it stops a landlord from renting to someone simply because they are LGBT, which is a right we have given to other groups (it is already illegal to discriminate because of religion, race, sex or national origin or age). The problem is those who don't like LGBT people are arguing, not for rights, but to take away rights, the most basic one of all, to be treated as an equal human being. The irony of course is the same bible that they cite to justify their beliefs, also tells them to treat others as they themselves want to be treated, but I guess the bible they use doesn't include those words.
2
Mr. Gates seems to be framing this not as a scouting issued, but as a religious issue. That's absurd. It's the Boy Scouts of America, not the Christian Boy Scouts of America.
6
True the BSA is not a christian organization. But it is also true that an important role of the BSA is to form the moral character of young boys and men. The promise include 'To do my best to do my duty to God and my country'.
The list of characteristics every boy scout knows by heart ends with '...brave, clean, and reverent'. You can be a Muslim boy scout, you can be a Jewish or Hindu boy scout. But you can't be an atheist or agnostic boy scout. Not all faiths have the same teaching on homosexuality. Framing it as a religious freedom issue is a good way of opening up to door a bit more.
The list of characteristics every boy scout knows by heart ends with '...brave, clean, and reverent'. You can be a Muslim boy scout, you can be a Jewish or Hindu boy scout. But you can't be an atheist or agnostic boy scout. Not all faiths have the same teaching on homosexuality. Framing it as a religious freedom issue is a good way of opening up to door a bit more.
I'm glad that what he wishes the world to be, is passing away with his wishes.
5
This demonstrates a terrible lack of leadership on the part of Mr. Gates and poor coverage by this newspaper of the actual content of his speech. "By allowing local chapters to continue to discriminate" he has just shown that his goal is not progress, but rather his goal is diverting attention from the national chapter. However, allowing local chapters to discriminate will simply create thousands of smaller problems scattered across the country. This policy of discrimination needs to be dealt with strongly at the national level, not passed off to the local councils.
3
How about a ban on mormon missionary recruiters posing as Scoutmasters?
12
I'm afraid this is the end of scouting as we know it.
The conservative organizations that sponsor troops will never accept this "compromise" where they can exclude openly gay leaders but their scouts will encounter gay leaders at the summer camps, camp Philmont, etc etc
The conservative organizations that sponsor troops will never accept this "compromise" where they can exclude openly gay leaders but their scouts will encounter gay leaders at the summer camps, camp Philmont, etc etc
4
Well, maybe they don't need to be sponsored by conservative and religious organizations. The Girl Scouts seem to be doing just fine without it.
If enough boys are still interested in scouting, I highly doubt that troops will just cease to exist. Maybe it's time for parents and interested parties to make other arrangements (e.g., additional fundraising or partnerships with local businesses).
If enough boys are still interested in scouting, I highly doubt that troops will just cease to exist. Maybe it's time for parents and interested parties to make other arrangements (e.g., additional fundraising or partnerships with local businesses).
This is a nice and positive statement from Mr. Gates, but will it really result in an end to discrimination against gay adult leaders within the BSA?
His proposal would allow churches that sponsor troops to set their own standards based on their religious beliefs -- in other words, to continue to discriminate against LGBTQ people.
As the BSA became known as an organization that litigated all the way to the Supreme Court to defend its right to discriminate, many of its existing troop sponsors withdrew, saying that they could no longer be associated with a discriminatory organization. Conservative churches stepped into the void, apparently not having a problem being associated with BSA, and this created a major antigay shift in the makeup of the BSA. It also caused corporate supporters to withdraw.
In view of the panicky reaction among the religious right, which is trying in many states to enshrine discrimination against LGBTQ people in the law in anticipation of the coming marriage equality decision from the Supreme Court (see, most recently, Indiana and Louisiana's Bobby Jindal), can we expect the religious organizations that sponsor troops to do anything other than continue to discriminate?
This issue is explored in OutCasting, public radio's LGBTQ youth program, which I produce. The episode is at http://bit.ly/1fDkzgE.
His proposal would allow churches that sponsor troops to set their own standards based on their religious beliefs -- in other words, to continue to discriminate against LGBTQ people.
As the BSA became known as an organization that litigated all the way to the Supreme Court to defend its right to discriminate, many of its existing troop sponsors withdrew, saying that they could no longer be associated with a discriminatory organization. Conservative churches stepped into the void, apparently not having a problem being associated with BSA, and this created a major antigay shift in the makeup of the BSA. It also caused corporate supporters to withdraw.
In view of the panicky reaction among the religious right, which is trying in many states to enshrine discrimination against LGBTQ people in the law in anticipation of the coming marriage equality decision from the Supreme Court (see, most recently, Indiana and Louisiana's Bobby Jindal), can we expect the religious organizations that sponsor troops to do anything other than continue to discriminate?
This issue is explored in OutCasting, public radio's LGBTQ youth program, which I produce. The episode is at http://bit.ly/1fDkzgE.
1
Liberals don't care about the ideals of the Constitution or what the founding of America was all about. Why would the BSA cater to a group that detests what they stand for in first place? The gay issue isn't one I care about one way or the other to be perfectly honest. However, the current policy of allowing kids in regardless of what they view as their orientation is perfectly fine with me. Kids that age really don't know themselves anyway. However, regular parents that participate can be gay with no issue, they just cannot be Leaders in the organization. I agree with this policy.
When the courts ruled that publicly funded schools/military bases cannot sponsor a Unit, I stopped caring about what they wanted anymore. If they made it a tit for tat, then it might be worth discussing. Without that, BSA must adhere to what their real chartered organizations want and rightly so.
When the courts ruled that publicly funded schools/military bases cannot sponsor a Unit, I stopped caring about what they wanted anymore. If they made it a tit for tat, then it might be worth discussing. Without that, BSA must adhere to what their real chartered organizations want and rightly so.
5
Not discriminating (i.e., treating everyone equally) is hardly the same thing as "catering to a group".
1
Your logic and your text are both rambling. Are you sure you know what you actually believe?
2
I personally think things like this make many people resent gays even more than they already do. It is an unfortunate reaction but it is realty. Just saying.
4
Right, it's like they're uppity.
1
It might make people resent gays even more, but whose problem is that? The retired pope when Cardinal encouraged the US Bishops to oppose gay rights laws (not talking marriage, talking about basic things like employment discrimination), saying that if gay rights laws were passed, it would put gays in harms way from those who oppose them. That is no different than saying we shouldn't have passed the civil rights law because rednecks would go after blacks, it is no different than saying we should not have sanctioned Nazi Germany because it would cause the Nazis to hurt the Jews even further, and in all cases it is basically an excuse to allow bigots to dsicriminate.
1
I suppose churches will be free to discriminate against black troop leaders as well? Boy Scouts are supposed to learn honor, but it's hard to see how that can be arranged when the organization to which they belong hasn't any.
14
Race and skin color are about genetics and appearance -- homosexuality is about behavior.
2
Just so you understand where I am coming from, I am a Gay man, open and proud. I think that allowing for religious organizations who sponsor boy scout troops to make decisions about leadership qualifications commensurate with their religious doctrine is reasonable.
Concerned Citizen, I'm really surprised to hear that sentiment from you. Are you not aware that twin studies have shown that homosexuality is 50% determined prenatally, either by genes or factors we don't know about?
Honestly, I'm surprised to hear these sentiments from you, since your comments are generally so well informed. Perhaps you're extrapolating from female to male sexuality? Recent research finds that they're surprisingly different, in that a woman's physiological responses are induced equally by men, women, or even images of monkeys mating, while the male physiological response corresponds to orientation, gay, bi, or straight.
Honestly, I'm surprised to hear these sentiments from you, since your comments are generally so well informed. Perhaps you're extrapolating from female to male sexuality? Recent research finds that they're surprisingly different, in that a woman's physiological responses are induced equally by men, women, or even images of monkeys mating, while the male physiological response corresponds to orientation, gay, bi, or straight.
I look forward to the day when I no longer read the phrase "openly gay leader." May it come to be that all who lead can lead from their authentic selves and not be called out for doing so.
16
Just one more nail in the coffin of what once was one of the greatest organizations in the world.
I was a Boy Scout until age 18. We did 50-mile hikes in the Cascades or Olympics every summer. We'd get dropped off in the middle of the mountains in the winter for snowshoe-snow cave hikes (our Scoutmaster was a railroad dispatcher and could have the trains make special stops). Just a couple of things we did every season, year in and year out.
Our two main Scoutmasters were great leaders. One died 2 years ago at 89, one is still living at 88. After my dad and his dad, the two men who had the greatest influence on my life.
The BSA has been trashed, and let itself be trashed, by a fading and failing culture.
I was a Boy Scout until age 18. We did 50-mile hikes in the Cascades or Olympics every summer. We'd get dropped off in the middle of the mountains in the winter for snowshoe-snow cave hikes (our Scoutmaster was a railroad dispatcher and could have the trains make special stops). Just a couple of things we did every season, year in and year out.
Our two main Scoutmasters were great leaders. One died 2 years ago at 89, one is still living at 88. After my dad and his dad, the two men who had the greatest influence on my life.
The BSA has been trashed, and let itself be trashed, by a fading and failing culture.
6
You left your musings on the topic incomplete. How does wanton marginalizing segments of society not abet a "fading and failing culture?"
3
Glad you got to do that and isn't it sad that some BSA leaders would spoil those experiences by espousing ideas of discrimination during such adventures.
2
How is this a "nail in the coffin" of the BSA? Having gay people in the organization does not prevent troops from going on hikes, going to Philmont, or doing any of the other great things the Boy Scouts do - it just means it openly allows boys and their fathers to participate. I'm sure a gay scoutmaster can do just as well as a straight scoutmaster - sexual orientation really has no bearing on leadership skills. The true failure is that BSA let the debate go on for so long.
9
I was a Cub Scout, a Boy Scout, and an Explorer Scout; and it was some of the best training that I had for life. The experiences last a lifetime, and evoke wonderful memories.
I was an Army Infantry officer too; and much of our training at Fort Benning, GA was familiar because of the scouting program. Later, some of my hobbies have been hiking and camping, which are outgrowths of scouting.
We were blessed with wonderful parental leaders in all phases of scouting.
I have had Gay clients. Many are caring individuals, who are likely to carry over such traits to scouting if they have children who join. As long as they do not proselytize, no problems may arise.
It has been suggested:
"If the gays are so gung ho on scouting why not start your own gay scouting organization?"
Like the "Log Cabin Republicans." Not a bad idea.
I was an Army Infantry officer too; and much of our training at Fort Benning, GA was familiar because of the scouting program. Later, some of my hobbies have been hiking and camping, which are outgrowths of scouting.
We were blessed with wonderful parental leaders in all phases of scouting.
I have had Gay clients. Many are caring individuals, who are likely to carry over such traits to scouting if they have children who join. As long as they do not proselytize, no problems may arise.
It has been suggested:
"If the gays are so gung ho on scouting why not start your own gay scouting organization?"
Like the "Log Cabin Republicans." Not a bad idea.
2
Why should there be a separate scouting organization for gay scouts? We're talking about kids hiking, camping etc. Sexual orientation whether gay or straight has nothing to do with any of that.
6
Proselytize? Do you mean not mentioning being gay at all, like a boy not talking about the type of person he wishes to marry when he becomes an adult while all around him other scouts are commenting on girls bosoms and behinds? If you are equating proselytizing with being simply out of the closet, you have much learning to do. As far as creating a "separate but equal" organization, if you really believe that to be a solution, there are many folks out there who can tell you their experiences with water fountains, restrooms, fronts vs. backs of buses, etc.
4
"As long as they do not proselytize, no problems may arise." If you had gay clients, and truly got to know them,you would know that you don't 'join' being gay. I don't know what world you grew up in, but this isn't the 1950's, and outside great american hookworm belt and some shady quarters of the internet, no one with half a brain thinks you can convince someone to be gay, and it tells a lot about yourself that you still believe this to be true. I guess your scouting career didn't do one thing, I guess they don't have merit badges for actually getting to the truth of things, I guess the BSA is like the Texas school board that forbids teaching critical thinking, because what you said fails the test of thinking on many, many levels.
And yes, there are gay scouting groups, that often attract the kids of straight parents who don't want their kids in the Mormon Scouts (which is basically what BSA has become). However, unless they have changed scouting, one of the things it is supposed to do is teach scouts concepts of duty and honor, and is also supposed to teach them concepts of personal honor when dealing with other people. Having a BSA limited to those with religious beliefs and excludes those who are different, teaches the opposite things, that some people are not good enough to be a scout, whereas the not good enough is not based on whether the person is honorable and has a sense of duty, but rather on those running it excluding people who are different from themselves
And yes, there are gay scouting groups, that often attract the kids of straight parents who don't want their kids in the Mormon Scouts (which is basically what BSA has become). However, unless they have changed scouting, one of the things it is supposed to do is teach scouts concepts of duty and honor, and is also supposed to teach them concepts of personal honor when dealing with other people. Having a BSA limited to those with religious beliefs and excludes those who are different, teaches the opposite things, that some people are not good enough to be a scout, whereas the not good enough is not based on whether the person is honorable and has a sense of duty, but rather on those running it excluding people who are different from themselves
4
It's inevitable. Change or be vanished from the modern world! Gates is only stating the obvious. But, if he's the leader, why "lead" with such timidity? Why suggets change "at a future time"?? Lead NOW. Make a decision and head in a new direction. Instead, he's kicking the can down the road for someone else to finish the work. Weak.
4
Gay troop leaders roles and gay troop members -- a complete non-issue for The Girl Scouts of the USA.. Why? 1) No sexual contact between leaders and children is ever tolerated, and no advocacy for any type of sexual orientation is permitted. 2) To the best of my knowledge, troops are never sponsored by religious organizations, and all girls are welcome regardless of religious belief or non-belief. 3) Girl Scouts have better things to think about! Troop leaders put in hundreds of volunteer hours each year to facilitate fun, educational, and wholesome activities, including service projects that show girls that they have the responsibility and the ability to make the world a better place. Having fun, learning, doing good -- that's enough!
27
What does being gay have to do with pedophilia? Two completely separate things.
4
The girl scouts were founded by women, as a means to create young, confident women who are able to find their place in the world, and it is no big surprise that the girl scouts have been progressive (they just announced allowing transgender girls to be a part of it). They are like this in large part because women for many centuries were oppressed by the same kind of religious logic used against gay people, by male religious leaders, so it isn't a big surprise the girl scouts has a very different view of things, when you have been oppressed by religion, you aren't going to want to have religion as a basis for creating strong, valued young women (if the GSA followed religious principles, the girls would be taught to cook and clean and obey men in all facets of their life and that their life goal is to get married and have kids). It isn't surprising that the BSA would hold religion dear, after all, that same religion has for most of its history promoted the idea of the superiority of men.
1
"We must deal with the world as it is, not as we might wish it to be."
Why would anyone educated person wish for a world absent gay people? No Leonardo, no Michelangelo, no "Nutcracker," no "West Side Story," no Cole Porter, no Henry James, no Oscar Wilde, no Walt Whitman, no Andy Warhol, no Elton John for pop's sake. That's not a world *I* would wish for!
Why would anyone educated person wish for a world absent gay people? No Leonardo, no Michelangelo, no "Nutcracker," no "West Side Story," no Cole Porter, no Henry James, no Oscar Wilde, no Walt Whitman, no Andy Warhol, no Elton John for pop's sake. That's not a world *I* would wish for!
95
Best post of the day. Thank you.
2
Ok, but what about the Catholic Church sex scandals? I could do without those.
1
.... not to mention no Baden-Powell (founder of the Scouts).
Bob Gates, exhead of the CIA, as head of the Boy Scouts of America? That's really rich.
10
Men who are attracted to other men should not be in power positions over children of a certain age in an organization like BSA, where there are camp outs, co bathing and the like.
8
That's one of the most bigoted thing I've ever read here. Homosexuality and pedophilia are two different things, just as heterosexuality and pedophilia are. I suppose straight men shouldn't teach girls? Most victims of molestation are girls, after all, and teachers are frequently involved. Clearly, all teachers of girls should be straight women or gay men.
14
Being attracted to men isn't the same thing as being attracted to children. Get a clue.
6
There is no "co bathing" in the BSA. Adult and youth showering/changing/sleeping facilities are always separate, and 1:1 adult/child interactions are never allowed.
Also, heterosexual women are permitted to be Scout leaders; by your logic, should not they be banned as well?
Also, heterosexual women are permitted to be Scout leaders; by your logic, should not they be banned as well?
6
“we must deal with the world as it is, not as we might wish it to be,”
This is progress?
In other words, we will grudgingly let you in (and, yes, we disapprove of and hate you), but only because we are under a lot of pressure from more enlightened people who live in the 21st century. So welcome to the BSA!
This is progress?
In other words, we will grudgingly let you in (and, yes, we disapprove of and hate you), but only because we are under a lot of pressure from more enlightened people who live in the 21st century. So welcome to the BSA!
17
Give it a rest. It's over. The BSA has decided to modernize rather than die. I guess that isn't enough for you.
2
As an Eagle Scout, I have to say it's nice to see the Boy Scouts finally coming to their senses. This organization has been marginalized at the expense of other youth activities over the last 50 years, in part because of its anachronistic view of the world.
While I would have preferred that it require acceptance of openly gay members at all levels, I believe deferring to local sponsors on this issue strikes a reasonable balance between these competing interests, so long as national and local policy at the administrative level give it no safe harbor.
To those who suggest that this change undermines Baden-Powell's vision, I simply see no conflict. Gay American's are completely capable of doing their "duty to God" and "country", "helping other people at all times" and keeping themselves "physically fit and morally straight". Your selective enforcement of biblical texts (alleged prohibition against homosexuality) versus say, not cutting your hair (Leviticus 19:27) or your failure to "destroy any city and kill all of its inhabitants" who don't believe in your God (Deuteronomy 13:12-15) renders you a sinner and a hypocrite. Perhaps you should stick the easier parts of the bible, the stuff about loving one another, etc.
While I would have preferred that it require acceptance of openly gay members at all levels, I believe deferring to local sponsors on this issue strikes a reasonable balance between these competing interests, so long as national and local policy at the administrative level give it no safe harbor.
To those who suggest that this change undermines Baden-Powell's vision, I simply see no conflict. Gay American's are completely capable of doing their "duty to God" and "country", "helping other people at all times" and keeping themselves "physically fit and morally straight". Your selective enforcement of biblical texts (alleged prohibition against homosexuality) versus say, not cutting your hair (Leviticus 19:27) or your failure to "destroy any city and kill all of its inhabitants" who don't believe in your God (Deuteronomy 13:12-15) renders you a sinner and a hypocrite. Perhaps you should stick the easier parts of the bible, the stuff about loving one another, etc.
14
Well as UK Scouting is fully inclusive, I hardly think that BP would agree to excluding people based on their religion, sexual preferences or numerous other rules
2
Another Eagle Scout in favor of this transition. And that's what it is -- a transition. BSA has wanted to do this for more than a decade but were well aware that the LDS sponsors of troops in particular would not be on board, and that it could result in a huge number of troops losing their sponsors. Those troops would lose their meeting locations and gear with them.
My discussions with my boyhood friend, a fellow Eagle Scout and BSA professional, provided pretty solid insight into how much this and other BSA issues are about money and about sustaining membership. Getting out of the Outing business has been on the agenda, but they could not afford to do it without taking a major hit to membership and cash flow.
So BSA is bending this corner gently so they don't break. Their leadership policies are well designed to eliminate risk to the kids, something that became an imperative years back when it was clear that a very small amount of adult leaders were predatorial (and a larger number were simply unsuitable) for leadership positions regardless of their sexual orientation, and that their prior Black Book policy was ineffective and unsustainable.
This has to happen. It's simply a matter of when, how, and how quickly.
(Eagle awarded September 14th, 1980.)
My discussions with my boyhood friend, a fellow Eagle Scout and BSA professional, provided pretty solid insight into how much this and other BSA issues are about money and about sustaining membership. Getting out of the Outing business has been on the agenda, but they could not afford to do it without taking a major hit to membership and cash flow.
So BSA is bending this corner gently so they don't break. Their leadership policies are well designed to eliminate risk to the kids, something that became an imperative years back when it was clear that a very small amount of adult leaders were predatorial (and a larger number were simply unsuitable) for leadership positions regardless of their sexual orientation, and that their prior Black Book policy was ineffective and unsustainable.
This has to happen. It's simply a matter of when, how, and how quickly.
(Eagle awarded September 14th, 1980.)
9
I applaud Gates and sincerely hope the LDS situation can be worked out. Scouting is a national treasure, and LDS is an important part of it. It would be a shame to see BSA collapse because of this issue.
(Parent of 2013 Eagle Scout and Girl Scout Leader since 2004)
(Parent of 2013 Eagle Scout and Girl Scout Leader since 2004)
According the Boy Scout Law, a Scout is trustworthy, loyal, helpful, friendly, courteous, kind, obedient, cheerful, thrifty, brave, clean, and reverent. It does not say that a scout or its leaders has to be straight or will discriminate against people for any reason. It appears that teaching discrimination is against the principles of scouting.
11
In UK Scouting we would not be allowed to discriminate
2
From other forums:
Proper response: “We oppose gay leadership in the Scouts for common sense reasons. Deal with us as we are, not as you wish us to be.”
"As soon as the Girl Scouts start to have unmarried young men taking their troops on camping trips, I’m fine with it."
http://www.virtueonline.org/truth-about-homosexual-rights-movement-ronal...
Proper response: “We oppose gay leadership in the Scouts for common sense reasons. Deal with us as we are, not as you wish us to be.”
"As soon as the Girl Scouts start to have unmarried young men taking their troops on camping trips, I’m fine with it."
http://www.virtueonline.org/truth-about-homosexual-rights-movement-ronal...
3
Yes, people are bigots (and idiots).
2
Lesbians are not banned from the Girl Scouts. What is your point?
1
You may be burdened by your own deviant sexual cravings for children, but most gays and straights are not. Stop projecting; most of the rest of us are healthy!
5
John Perry writes:
"There is something strange about anyone feeling the need to declare their sexuality. Like, is anyone openly heterosexual?"
In fact, yes, heterosexuals do declare their heterosexuality every day. The simple statement that one is married was, until recently, a declaration of heterosexuality. With every sentence, I do not declare that I am gay, but I do share with others the life's adventures I have with my husband (who I've been together with for 24 years), which is exactly the same declaration that heterosexuals have laid exclusive claim to since the marriage sacrament was created in the 12th century.
It's too bad some haven't moved very far forward in the last 900 years of human development. I'm very thankful other allies have.
"There is something strange about anyone feeling the need to declare their sexuality. Like, is anyone openly heterosexual?"
In fact, yes, heterosexuals do declare their heterosexuality every day. The simple statement that one is married was, until recently, a declaration of heterosexuality. With every sentence, I do not declare that I am gay, but I do share with others the life's adventures I have with my husband (who I've been together with for 24 years), which is exactly the same declaration that heterosexuals have laid exclusive claim to since the marriage sacrament was created in the 12th century.
It's too bad some haven't moved very far forward in the last 900 years of human development. I'm very thankful other allies have.
13
Right, and before the 12th Century, there was same-sex marriage? Do you actually believe that stuff?
1
Having grown up in a Mormon organization as a girl who loved the outdoor activities the Wasatch offered, but was barred from the scouts (or any interesting leadership opportunity, really) the sooner the sexist disparity for funding for activities between young women and men is cut, the better!
It's not just gay youth (though they most certainly are) who are hurt by Mormons and their fellow retrogrades.
I'm a proud MeetUp-er. No sexism, and a better platform for thinking people.
It's not just gay youth (though they most certainly are) who are hurt by Mormons and their fellow retrogrades.
I'm a proud MeetUp-er. No sexism, and a better platform for thinking people.
5
In group camping, showering and sleeping situations, our society has long avoided placing young girls and young women in the charge of adult men. It is deemed inappropriate. As a hetero male I accept this as a very practical solution. Even if I had saintly chastity of mind and body and were not ever tempted to "have a peek," I ought not to be in charge in these situations. The very real appearance of impropriety is thus avoided. The same standard should apply for gay male adults. But how? I suggest that openly gay male scout leaders have indeed a lot to offer scouting and that they should be accommodated. But, I would expect these same leaders should do the right thing and recuse themselves those duties that might, owing to their sexuality, bring about this appearance of inpropriety in the showers, the changing rooms, the sleeping arrangements.
6
Creepy. Homosexuality is not pedophilia. Normal adults, gay or straight, are of course sexually attracted to adolescents, but get real -- we don't act on most of our sexual impulses and both gay and straight people are frequently in contact with adolescents, and are content to obey the law.
7
Since the Boy Scouts don't permit adult and child sharing of showers, changing rooms, or sleeping arrangements, your concern makes no sense.
In addition, the Girl Scouts permit male adult leaders, so your initial assertion is not even valid.
In addition, the Girl Scouts permit male adult leaders, so your initial assertion is not even valid.
1
Bigoted and ignorant. A bigoted and discriminatory policy does nothing protect children from harm. As an organization that emphasizes letting youth take risks appropriately to grow physically and in character, the BSA has long held safety in the highest regard. For physical safety and to prevent any abuse, there are always *minimum* 2 adults leaders with scouts at all times. The BSA also forbids adults tenting or showering with any youth, unless the youth is the person's son. These rules apply to almost any youth activity that engages adult volunteers, and any sensible parent should verify adherence to such policy, rather than assume that it isn't a problem because the organization is "religious" or "moral" in some arbitrary manner. The ban on gays serves no purpose whatsoever, other than excluding talented and committed volunteers who can make wonderful contributions to the improving the excellnce of the organization.
8
Gates said, "we must deal with the world as it is, not as we might wish it to be,”
'We wish it to be'. Shows where his head is at. Another dinosaur who doesn't know he's extinct.
'We wish it to be'. Shows where his head is at. Another dinosaur who doesn't know he's extinct.
6
Totally agreed.
1
So, now its ok to teach little boys that being Gay is OK......you are right Mr Gates the national movement is over. I will never send my boys to Scouts now unless I am running it - which I may do but I think I will keep the existing rule in place.
If our little boys are Gay then of course they will be lovingly supported because that is the way of things, BUT, I cannot accept that we must embrace this and openly teach that there is no problem with it. There is too much at stake.
If our little boys are Gay then of course they will be lovingly supported because that is the way of things, BUT, I cannot accept that we must embrace this and openly teach that there is no problem with it. There is too much at stake.
3
Some people are gay. Nobody can change that. So how can being gay not be OK?
I hate to think what your little boys are learning. Perhaps the best that can be said of it is that they will probably transcend your bigotry.
I hate to think what your little boys are learning. Perhaps the best that can be said of it is that they will probably transcend your bigotry.
4
To be perfectly consistent (in sync with "the world as it is"), we should allow heterosexual men to be leaders of Girl Scout troops.
5
Bigoted nonsense.
4
Nope. Not this hetero man. My support begins and ends with the annual cookie sale. I blame them for my obesity, BTW.
Indeed, women are allowed to be leaders of Boy Scout troops, and I had many excellent female assistant scoutmasters when I was a boy scout. The troop benefited greatly from their leadership.
4
I realize that this is a big deal. It's almost like the NRA saying there just might be even just a tiny little bit of a problem with their guns everywhere agenda. (No, bad analogy - the NRA would never, ever, ever admit such a thing, even if every man, woman and child had been killed by a gun and only Wayne La Pierre himself was left standing.)
But Gates' statement - while he is lauded for his "tell it like it is" attitude - is hardly a clarion call for universal acceptance of gays. I know, he's being "diplomatic." He's saying, "I know you don't like gays, but you're gonna have to accept them, one way or another, or go the way of the dinosaur."
And allowing the 70% of religiously sponsored scout troops to adopt their own policies is letting these intolerant organizations off the hook.
Nonetheless, two of the most homophobic organizations in this country - Christian churches and the Boy Scouts - this is progress.
Hooray.
But Gates' statement - while he is lauded for his "tell it like it is" attitude - is hardly a clarion call for universal acceptance of gays. I know, he's being "diplomatic." He's saying, "I know you don't like gays, but you're gonna have to accept them, one way or another, or go the way of the dinosaur."
And allowing the 70% of religiously sponsored scout troops to adopt their own policies is letting these intolerant organizations off the hook.
Nonetheless, two of the most homophobic organizations in this country - Christian churches and the Boy Scouts - this is progress.
Hooray.
7
When are the scouts going to start acting human? Incidentally, their founder, Baden-Powell, seems to have been very closeted indeed. Go read the scholarship. The boy scouts are terrific for boys, gay, straight, and whatever. Let's give the boys good leaders, gay or straight.
http://www.thecriticalmom.blogspot.com
http://www.thecriticalmom.blogspot.com
13
"The president of the Boy Scouts of America on Thursday called for an end to the group’s blanket ban on gay adult leaders, warning Scout executives that “we must deal with the world as it is, not as we might wish it to be,” and that “any other alternative will be the end of us as a national movement.” BINGO
1
I am a Catholic Eagle Scout and a troop leader. You can't convert a moral issue of God's natural law into a "civil rights" issue just because you "might wish it to be" so. All change in society is not good. Some types of change bring about decline. What a travesty.
Bob Gates is a figurehead, selected by the national "leadership" because of his visibility in the nation and his potential fundraising draw. We did not elect him president of our organization. He has now abdicated any standing he may have had with Scouters trying to the good work of the Boy Scouts of America every day. How sad that he and the chief scout executive lack the fortitude of their predecessors.
Bob Gates is a figurehead, selected by the national "leadership" because of his visibility in the nation and his potential fundraising draw. We did not elect him president of our organization. He has now abdicated any standing he may have had with Scouters trying to the good work of the Boy Scouts of America every day. How sad that he and the chief scout executive lack the fortitude of their predecessors.
4
If there's a God then she made gay people as well as straight people. Who are you to declare that she was wrong?
1
I'm curious what makes you so confident you're an arbiter of what "God's natural law" should be. Apparently your God would encourage discrimination based on sexual orientation--something innate and, if you will, God-given--which to me is the real travesty here.
1
"You can't convert a moral issue of God's natural law into a "civil rights" issue just because you 'might wish it to be' so"
Sure you can. No "converting" is actually needed because it already IS a civil rights issue - the fact that not everyone shares your religious beliefs. Wake up - all around you, there are people who believe something different than you.
Sure you can. No "converting" is actually needed because it already IS a civil rights issue - the fact that not everyone shares your religious beliefs. Wake up - all around you, there are people who believe something different than you.
7
It's the STRAIGHT MALE pedophiles -
that hide behind the cover of church or scouting that boys & girls need to be protected from, not the Gay leaders.
that hide behind the cover of church or scouting that boys & girls need to be protected from, not the Gay leaders.
47
Most pedophiles are men who molest young girls.
Glancing through a retro Boys Scout handbook you notice how filled it is with skills you must learn and rules you must follow. Apparently gadar was one of the important skills a scout must develop as the rules were clearly spelled out when it came to sexual orientation...scouting was not for all boys!
The Boy Scouts have long held on to this antiquated policy reflecting a time when gays were silent and invisible and their change in policy is a good step forward. The longtime policy of banning gay troop leaders is as dated and quaint as the retro handbook and the vintage illustrations from Boys Life magazine you can view at http://wp.me/p2qifI-16A
The Boy Scouts have long held on to this antiquated policy reflecting a time when gays were silent and invisible and their change in policy is a good step forward. The longtime policy of banning gay troop leaders is as dated and quaint as the retro handbook and the vintage illustrations from Boys Life magazine you can view at http://wp.me/p2qifI-16A
3
Old prejudices die with great difficulty...and this is another step in the correct direction. To those who think that gays rape and injure at a higher per-centage of non-gays, this is an absolute fallacy / prejudice. It reflects the older and erroneous belief that 'straight is better' and "gay is predatory" ...Not true !
To maintain their religious freedom AND their tax-free status AND discriminate should not be allowed. In actual fact, the need for a tax-free status for religious organizations should be limited ONLY to the actual costs of federally defined charity purposes defined very specifically, and itemized on tax returns. It's long past time to allow the, essentially, carte-blanche tax-free status for religious-related organizations.
To maintain their religious freedom AND their tax-free status AND discriminate should not be allowed. In actual fact, the need for a tax-free status for religious organizations should be limited ONLY to the actual costs of federally defined charity purposes defined very specifically, and itemized on tax returns. It's long past time to allow the, essentially, carte-blanche tax-free status for religious-related organizations.
17
I too, am an Eagle Scout. You sir are a curse to all true Scouts. Gay adults have no business around young boys. Yes, I guess we can keep our tight little clique, True Christians. I guess you forgot the part of the oath about being morally straight. What with all the changes in the world, I guess we can add the fallibility of the Pope.
5
Are you referring to the true Christians like the clergy who molested young children?
Being gay isn't the same thing as being a pedophile. You really need to get a clue.
Being gay isn't the same thing as being a pedophile. You really need to get a clue.
7
What century do you live in?
2
Have you ever thought about how insulting your view that "gay adults have no business around young boys" is? Do you feel the same way about straight adult men around young girls? Maybe those girls should be veiled, in that case. Who teaches your kids' Sunday School classes? How do those adults refrain from sexually abusing the students there? And what is "true Christian" about having such irrational prejudices to imply that all gay people are predators? To me that is outright bigotry and ignorance.
3
A step in the right direction.
3
Though pretty timid.
3
Way to go Gates. Thank you for confirming that you are totally out of touch with the members of the organization that you are supposed to represent. The last change caused such an uproar let's double down and ostracize even more chartered organizations that sponsor units. What a moron.
If people want to go have their own gay groups, go have them. Leave the Boy Scouts alone.
If people want to go have their own gay groups, go have them. Leave the Boy Scouts alone.
3
Without change the Boy Scouts will eventually become smaller and smaller. Eventually it will become irrelevant. You would be surprised at how many leaders in Boy Scouts right now that are gay or bisexual. They have no interest in the young men other than helping them to grow up to be honest, trustworthy, and good citizens. They are not there to recruit them to become gay.
2
Long over due. Some of the most caring, admired leaders I knew in the 50s and 60s at the NYC scout camp were gay.
15
I'm an Eagle Scout, but I strongly discouraged my kids from doing scouting because of this policy. They will never know the joys that I experienced as a scout. I'm glad the boy scouts are finally addressing this issue, but it's too late for my family.
24
Gates seems to want to have his cake and eat it too basically saying, "We should not allow discrimination in the Boy Scouts of America while continuing to let our local chapters discriminate." If you are going to condemn discrimination, you have to condemn (and ban) all of it, not just some of it.
"At the same time, religious organizations that sponsor a majority of local Scout troops, including the Mormons and Roman Catholics, should remain free to set their own policies for leaders, said the president, Robert M. Gates."
No. If you are going to end discrimination, then end it. Do not say, we are ending discrimination but only for people who want to end it. Do not say we embrace those who want to end discrimination and endorse people who want to continue discriminating.
"At the same time, religious organizations that sponsor a majority of local Scout troops, including the Mormons and Roman Catholics, should remain free to set their own policies for leaders, said the president, Robert M. Gates."
No. If you are going to end discrimination, then end it. Do not say, we are ending discrimination but only for people who want to end it. Do not say we embrace those who want to end discrimination and endorse people who want to continue discriminating.
57
Let the Chartered Organizations decide. Reducing freedom of religion is intolerance in itself.
I wonder how many of you "commenters" actually read Bates' address??
1
Well its a start. However I note this leaves much wiggle room for certain US religious leaders to contend that their understanding of the Gospels prohibits Boy Scouts from being gay, and therefore the scout troops who these religious groups sponser must continue to remain untainted by these wayword individuals. Can't wait to see what happens with the National Boy Scout Jamborees when they are scheduled to be held in Utah, for instance.
6
This makes me very optimistic. As an Eagle Scout and having been active in scouting from the age of 6 to around 16 when I came to terms with my sexuality. I became wary of supporting an organization that propagated discrimination against those like me.
Scouting taught me many things and nowhere in what I learned and was taught was there a place for blatant hate and discrimination. There will be those who scream about pedophilia, molestation, and religious freedom and I can't change those people minds as much as I would like to.
The ban will be lifted and like various churches across the countries are now voting among their membership wether to allow gay marriage ceremonies in their church or not the same will happen across individual councils and troops to make their own decisions on this matter.
There will be no splitting the scouts from church support, but at the very least every council should have room in their offices for a troop to meet unaffiliated with a church and not subject to the religious objections of churches who might sponsor a troop which allows any leader regardless of their sexual orientation.
Like most things I won't believe it until I see it, but if the ban on gay leaders is lifted I would happily be involved again
Scouting taught me many things and nowhere in what I learned and was taught was there a place for blatant hate and discrimination. There will be those who scream about pedophilia, molestation, and religious freedom and I can't change those people minds as much as I would like to.
The ban will be lifted and like various churches across the countries are now voting among their membership wether to allow gay marriage ceremonies in their church or not the same will happen across individual councils and troops to make their own decisions on this matter.
There will be no splitting the scouts from church support, but at the very least every council should have room in their offices for a troop to meet unaffiliated with a church and not subject to the religious objections of churches who might sponsor a troop which allows any leader regardless of their sexual orientation.
Like most things I won't believe it until I see it, but if the ban on gay leaders is lifted I would happily be involved again
20
A friend of mine responded to Mr. Gates inane comment this way:
"We have to deal with the world as it is...." Lord Baden-Powell's vision was that the character of youths could be improved through wholesome activities, appreciation of nature, mastery of outdoor skills, and inculcating virtues through moral instruction (Scout Oath and Law) and the example of appropriate male adult role models. None of this accepts "the world as it is." If we want our kids to grow up in that world, they could stay at home playing computer games, watching TV, and posting selfies on Facebook. Gates is clueless, and his advice, if followed, will destroy this venerable organization.
"We have to deal with the world as it is...." Lord Baden-Powell's vision was that the character of youths could be improved through wholesome activities, appreciation of nature, mastery of outdoor skills, and inculcating virtues through moral instruction (Scout Oath and Law) and the example of appropriate male adult role models. None of this accepts "the world as it is." If we want our kids to grow up in that world, they could stay at home playing computer games, watching TV, and posting selfies on Facebook. Gates is clueless, and his advice, if followed, will destroy this venerable organization.
7
Can you tell the difference between apples and oranges? Apparently not. His comments are far from "inane". Not that many decades ago it was acceptable to have segregated troops as part of Baden-Powell's "vision" This has nothing to do with selfless and video games
4
Or, you could say that none of those activities requires a heterosexual orientation, and therefore there is no reason except prejudice for excluding gay boys from being Scouts and gay men from being Scout leaders.
1
I absolutely disagree. I am a scout leader of many years,,, I am straight as the day is long. But I also have come to recognize that it is just plain wrong to equate gayness, with pedophilia. Two entirely different matters.
If we are being honest,,, most pedophilia is exhibited in the straight population,,, and those pedophiles are to be watched for and always excluded from the Scouts. I'll go so far as to say,,, I have no greater role to play than to keep scouts safe,,, from ALL injuries.
Truthfully, gay or straight,,,, there is no difference. Someone is born tall or short,, black, or white, or Mediterranean, blue eyes, brown eyes,,, if an adult has a good moral compass,, he or she can make a good scout leader. Scouts, as envisioned by Lord Baden Powell also were not black or female,, but we have learned that lesson.
It is time we grew again
If we are being honest,,, most pedophilia is exhibited in the straight population,,, and those pedophiles are to be watched for and always excluded from the Scouts. I'll go so far as to say,,, I have no greater role to play than to keep scouts safe,,, from ALL injuries.
Truthfully, gay or straight,,,, there is no difference. Someone is born tall or short,, black, or white, or Mediterranean, blue eyes, brown eyes,,, if an adult has a good moral compass,, he or she can make a good scout leader. Scouts, as envisioned by Lord Baden Powell also were not black or female,, but we have learned that lesson.
It is time we grew again
3
Distinguishing pedophilia and homosexuality may help in the discussion of this matter.
35
Having been the victim of an adult scout leader, maybe 50 years ago, I have a different take on this stuff. A male who preys on a male is gay. An adult male who preys on a male child is a pedophile. And gay, as well. But afraid of getting beaten to death, or shot, by an attempt to victimize an adult.
That is the truth. It's just not PC to say it.
Beware ANY leader, of anything, who doesn't have his own kid in the program.
NEVER, EVER, allow one on one situations to happen. Not with a priest, rabbi, scoutmaster, little league coach,
That is the truth. It's just not PC to say it.
Beware ANY leader, of anything, who doesn't have his own kid in the program.
NEVER, EVER, allow one on one situations to happen. Not with a priest, rabbi, scoutmaster, little league coach,
Well said. Pedophiles who prey on boys are rarely homosexuals. I was sexually abused by an uncle when I was 6 years old. Not once but multiple times. He was married and had 6 kids. I often wondered if my 6 cousins endured the same thing. I was scared and threatened by him not to talk about it. Eventually I pushed it into the back of my memories. It didn't come to the surface again until I was in my late 40's when I had a breakdown when I had heard he had passed away.
He wasn't a homosexual. He was a member of my family who liked to have little kids perform oral sex on him and use them as a tool to reach orgasm.
He wasn't a homosexual. He was a member of my family who liked to have little kids perform oral sex on him and use them as a tool to reach orgasm.
Religious issues aside. I actually see this as being akin to when liberal colleges started to make co-ed dorms and bathrooms. The reason I see the connection is the taboo-ness of someones sexual preference and desires with the balance that is expected for a mature adult to behave themselves in that public forum. Meaning people feel uncomfortable having their male children around a gay male scout leader (there is a famous Alec Baldwin and Adam Sandler sketch referencing this on SNL http://www.hulu.com/watch/18883 ). College campuses had the same issue decades back when they decided that "mature" teenagers should live amongst each other (male and female in this case). Ultimately the "bad apples" on college campus created a rape issue that is today unprecedented (yesterdays article in the times http://www.nytimes.com/2015/05/20/nyregion/mattress-protest-at-columbia-.... So the ethical question we have is that with proper foresight humans will be humans and there will be more sexual assault in the scouts should there be gay male scout leaders allowed. However, it is not liberal and unfair to penalize the entire gay community for "bad apples". So does a 100% restriction on what should be an equal opportunity for a non-life threatening (meaning the gay persons life will go on and he will find a job elsewhere) boy scout position trump the tiny increased percentage of a life threatening sexual assault on a boy scout?
My husband lived in a co-ed dorm in college. He said having women there meant that the guys behaved better and were neater and tidier.
For the hundredth time being gay doesn't mean that someone is a pedophile.
For the hundredth time being gay doesn't mean that someone is a pedophile.
13
The men who sexually assault young boys are usually not gay. In fact they're rarely gay. Or if they are, it's so suppressed that no one knows. So, the banning of gay scout leaders is without benefit to anyone. Your assumption that gay scout leader equals sexual assault is a reflection upon you, not upon the reality of the situation.
10
Andrew, your comment is so poorly written that I can't really tell what you're trying to say. I do know, however, that you are completely wrong when you write that "there will be more sexual assault in the scouts should there be gay male scout leaders allowed." Pedophiles are pedophiles, and gay men are gay men. They are not the same thing. If you disagree, show us some credible research showing that a higher percentage of gay men than of heterosexual men molest young boys.
10
I did not attain actual "scout" status...I did get my Bobcat, Wolf and Weblos (We be Loyal Scouts") badges but dropped off there. My scoutmaster, Dominic Perugini, of our pack 41 (Waterbury, CT, St. Thomases Church) gave me his worn brass half-dollar size coin with the scout oath and the required attributes of all scouts in 1977. I have always tried to live by those ideals and I still have it and intend to send it to Bob Gates as a proud gay man and hopeful...for the future...former participant.
8
This is probably an appropriate time to point out that the Boy Scout's ban on membership (both by boys and leaders) of atheists and agnostics is still firmly in place and unchallenged. They will allow persons of any other religions: Christian, Jewish, Hindu, Buddhist, Muslim, Morman, Wiccan, Zozastarian, Taoist, Scientologist, etc. etc. etc. They have just picked out one despised and unpowerful minority to exclude.
They make leaders of kids as early as first grade (Tiger Scouts) sign a pledge that they are not atheists and, if the parent does not, they are shown the door. On the other side, a requirement to Eagle Scout is the review board, which asks the scout how they have demonstrated their reverence; if the scout (after years of work and commitment to the organization and its ideals) profess disbelief in religion, they are also shown the door.
They make leaders of kids as early as first grade (Tiger Scouts) sign a pledge that they are not atheists and, if the parent does not, they are shown the door. On the other side, a requirement to Eagle Scout is the review board, which asks the scout how they have demonstrated their reverence; if the scout (after years of work and commitment to the organization and its ideals) profess disbelief in religion, they are also shown the door.
27
There's got to be a better, more honest way to learn to tie knots.
So Mr. Gates seems to want it both ways--no discrimination in "secular" scout troops, but "religious liberty" in the majority of troops, which seem to be sponsored by religious groups.
7
The comment about the world not being what we wish it to be was of course offensive and ridiculous. Naturally he doesn't want to lose the sponsorship of religious groups and so using the tired excuse of 'religious freedom' yada yada.
I suppose that if a a religious group who ran a hospital believed that no woman should be a doctor, he'd consider it a matter of 'religious' rights that such an institution do as they please in the matter. These are human rights. Religions don't get to break them just because they think differently.
I suppose that if a a religious group who ran a hospital believed that no woman should be a doctor, he'd consider it a matter of 'religious' rights that such an institution do as they please in the matter. These are human rights. Religions don't get to break them just because they think differently.
18
That's great. The ban insinuates that kids are unsafe around gay adults, and that is damaging socially. It's just not true that gay men are pedophiles any more than straight men are, and in fact I think the opposite is true. Good for Gates.
11
You're right that gay men may not be any more likely than straight men to be pedophiles but you don't typically see straight men as leaders of a girl guides troop do you? In fact, I'd say that it is generally the case that straight men are not put in positions where they would often be alone and "in charge" of underage girls. I suspect a lot of parents would feel uncomfortable if an adult, straight male was in close proximity to their underage daughter on a camping trip or something of that nature so why should it be any different for gay men being in close proximity to underage boys in similar situations?
1
"“we must deal with the world as it is, not as we might wish it to be,”. Really Mr. Gates? Like being gay is the scourge of cancer, a regrettable thing to be endured as it is? The fact is being gay is simply an attribute that shouldn't mean anything negative. Your sanctimony and contempt for gay people, revealed in the way you phrased that sentence, is the reason a lot of people have abadoned the Scouting non-sense and decided to live in the world as it is - without regret that it isn't something else.
57
It will be interesting to see the repub candidates when they are asked to respond to this news story
4
As a female Scout leader, when I joined, we ladies were prohibited from wearing tan shirts, and that was this century. The BSA evolves on social issues like any other successful organization. They may still have drawbacks (such as the insistence that morality can only stem from superstitious religion and fear of punishment), but the day will come to eliminate that, too. Baby steps, but in the right direction. Today is a day I am once more proud to be a Scout leader.
3
"such as the insistence that morality can only stem from superstitious religion and fear of punishment" Yeah because discipline and morality based on the idea of a higher godly figure has really destroyed things this far. Should I mention that many a country's morals, laws, and ideology was based on this as well. But I guess you think that was a bad idea. Enjoy walking down that safe street, to get into your expensive import car, after eating that 15 dollar salad and not having to really worry about getting killed or stoned to death for being a woman. But yeah, religious involvement in America has really made this place horrible.
1
Unfortunately, Robert Gates's comments are still deeply homophobic. Rather, than gracefully call for an end to the ban because it is wrong and invite gay troop leaders to lead, he has called on the group to change as a last-ditch effort to survive and halt its descent into pariah status. Gates indicated that for him and the organization's leaders, a homophobic world is the world as they "wish it to be" and that the group must accept gay leaders in order to prevent legal change that would undermine its membership standard excluding atheists. While I am sure the Boy Scouts of America promotes leadership, camaraderie, and outdoorsmanship, in his prepared remarks today, Gates sadly indicated that paramount to the organization's mission is promoting conformity into a median, essentially WASP culture of the past, rather than recognizing the value in promoting leadership in a diverse, pluralistic twenty-first-century America.
19
I am at the convention. Not any support for Gates.
We had a Duty to God breakfast.
Take a guess what religion the Scouts did a video on? "The religion of Peace", you know the one the beheads Christians.
PC comes to BSA. Enrollment down almost 10% Good work guys.
We had a Duty to God breakfast.
Take a guess what religion the Scouts did a video on? "The religion of Peace", you know the one the beheads Christians.
PC comes to BSA. Enrollment down almost 10% Good work guys.
4
Enrollment has been plunging for 20 years. The Boy Scouts are a fraction of what they used to be. That has nothing to do with these recent events.
PC? you mean like lock step talking points of the RW where if you deviate even one iota from the talking points you are thrown under the bus by your own. It seems very "PC' that the scouts did a video on the "you know who"
The AP is reporting that he is "urging change in order to avert potentially destructive legal battles."
I hope that he's doing this because it's the right thing to do, not because he's afraid of being sued.
I hope that he's doing this because it's the right thing to do, not because he's afraid of being sued.
10
Unbelievable. So apparently the Boy Scouts still 'wishes the world didn't have gays' but since it does, they must deal with it? Well I suppose that's SOME improvement? But then they go on to say that religious groups (the scourge of the world as we know it ;-) should remain free to 'set their own policies' (continue to discriminate) with regards to their own troops and who can be leaders? How many Scouting groups have you ever heard of that were not aligned with religious groups? So basically nothing it seems will change.
7
You are diluted. They have always dealt with it. The rule was "we don't care, don't want to hear about it, and keep your sexual stuff to yourself.". That was the rule across the board. Not just for gays.
1
I support gay rights but also support common sense. As a man who lusts after women I think it is reasonable that i could not become a girl guides leader who would take teenage girls camping.
I am sure gay men can understand this line of reasoning.
I am sure gay men can understand this line of reasoning.
9
Well, thanks for being so honest about this personal problem that might land you in the prison at that rate.
6
Are you some kind of animal that can't keep your lusts to yourself? Do you know the difference between women and girls?
Being gay doesn't make someone a pedophile.
Being gay doesn't make someone a pedophile.
5
Bad analogy. You may lust after women but if you can't control yourself around a bunch of prepubescent girls you have bigger problems to worry about.
5
“any other alternative will be the end of us as a national movement.”??? Great! they gays now will destroy anything that stands in their way.
2
Gay leaders are not prohibited. "Openly gay" leaders are prohibited. There is something strange about anyone feeling the need to declare their sexuality. Like, is anyone openly heterosexual? Seems like that is personal private information, not anyone's business. People who feel the need to make a public declaration of their sexuality are best avoided. Simple as that!
12
Openly declare their sexuality? You mean like mentioning a "husband" if you are male, or bringing a spouse to a party?
You should probably try to get out more.
You should probably try to get out more.
6
If you're a man married to a man you are openly homosexual. Likewise, any man who is married to a woman is openly heterosexual. Such a "declaration" doesn't seem that strange to me. In fact, it would seem to be the norm in our society.
8
What's your definition of a public declaration? Perhaps you're conflating the right to be who you are with the right to make a ruckus.
You do realize that there are plenty of gay men who are simply trying to live their lives, right? Why should a gay scout leader in a committed relationship have to hide the existence of his partner when a hetero scout leader wouldn't have to hide the fact he's in a committed relationship with a woman?
Then again, maybe you're right. Scout leaders should not divulge the existence of a life partner at all. It'll make for a lot of confused kids when their moms aren't acknowledged, either, but hey, nobody will be scandalized by "sexual declarations."
You do realize that there are plenty of gay men who are simply trying to live their lives, right? Why should a gay scout leader in a committed relationship have to hide the existence of his partner when a hetero scout leader wouldn't have to hide the fact he's in a committed relationship with a woman?
Then again, maybe you're right. Scout leaders should not divulge the existence of a life partner at all. It'll make for a lot of confused kids when their moms aren't acknowledged, either, but hey, nobody will be scandalized by "sexual declarations."
8
Gates should call the conservative Justice Kennedy, and tell his that becuase he is using the care children as the moral high ground for agreeing to same sex marriage, he should take up the cause of allowing Gays in the Boy Scouts.
Yes. Almost here. Now perhaps BSA can regain it's claim to moral leadership, and ethical example. "It is not morally straight to discriminate." As long as Boy Scouts continued to rationalize discrimination, it was modeling the worst kind of behavior, the deepest sort of prejudice. I'm an Assistant Scoutmaster, an Eagle Scout, and the father of an Eagle Scout, who has been ashamed to wear the uniform, though I know the program is valuable for these boys, as it was for my son. A day to celebrate, but there is work yet to do.
25
as a scout leader for 38 years, i can state that
this will not effect the amount of fun had
or the outdoor skills learned by
the scouts in our troop.
our policy has always been and will continue to be-
"don't know, don't care",
this will not effect the amount of fun had
or the outdoor skills learned by
the scouts in our troop.
our policy has always been and will continue to be-
"don't know, don't care",
63
I'm concerned about the "don't know" portion of that policy. What if it becomes known? Where is the distinction between "don't know, don't care" and "don't ask, don't tell?" Does a gay scout or scout leader feel the need to suppress his sexual orientation because of your policy? Would he refrain from bringing his boyfriend to an event in a situation where another leader might bring his girlfriend, out of fear that doing so will upset an unspoken truce? I don't mean to assume the worst of your troop, I'm just trying to ask the right questions.
and maybe one day "i know, and I do not care."
1
It is hypocritical to say you don't know and don't care but to have a written policy. You DO care to have the policy.
2
Sexism should not be allowed in any scouting organization. There should be no distinction between girl scouts and boy scouts. Males, females and transgenders should be equally welcome as leaders and role models in what should just be called "Scouting."
20
I agree with you. But "transgender" should be used as an adjective, not a noun. Instead of writing "transgenders," please write "transgender people," or better yet, "scouts of all gender identities."
It is not perfect by Venture Scouting does allow both male and female members. My Boy Scout troop started a Venture Troop which was short lived due to lack of membership, but it is an option out there that is often not taken advantage of.
Girl Scouts is an incredibly different organization with very different goals. The focus is more on building confidence in girls, especially in skills that are not encouraged in traditional schooling, like business skills, financial planning and independence, and exploring activities that are usually denied to them because of their gender. There's badges for everything. By incorporating boys, the girls are not able to explore their own gender/femininity together; there'd be no sisterhood.
The Girl Scouts are separate from Boy Scouts only because if they joined, there is no way in hell every kid of every gender expression would be treated equally, even at so young an age, but especially among older Scouts and leaders.
The Girl Scouts are separate from Boy Scouts only because if they joined, there is no way in hell every kid of every gender expression would be treated equally, even at so young an age, but especially among older Scouts and leaders.
3
That's an interesting way to put the new policy, "not the way we wish it would be." So, the Boy Scouts wants to allow gay leaders, but wishes it didn't have to be that way? My son is already not in the scouts because of their policy, so no big loss for us.
76
I am a Catholic and had sons in scouting. If the conservative religions that participate in Boy Scouts don't want to go along, then get on out and form your own tight little clique. But do not dictate to others what is clearly a human rights issue. I think Pope Francis said it best and should be considered as speaking for all the Church, "Who am I to judge?"
136
Given that a majority of parents in the U.S. would prefer that a gay scout leader not be in charge of their young sons, you appear to be the one dictating what the majority should do. I suggest your clique get out and form a variant branch of Boy Scouts. Hypocrisy knows no bounds.
1
Please share the data that the majority of parents in the US would prefer not to have gay scout leaders.
Hypocrisy? You and your clique are certainly hypocrites> did you read the poll? You are wrong
As a former Scout, I support Mr. Gate's stated position and I think the interim strategy of allowing "defiant" councils to keep openly gay leaders as the council's discretion is a reasonable bridge to progress.
3
what progress? I live in Utah. Have my whole life. I guarantee you there isn't a Mormon troop here that would ever allow an openly gay man to be a leader. Can;t speak for the Catholics. And I suspect non-religious troops have been doing it for decades, just under the radar.
Another victory in the culture wars for the large class of people in this country who persist in calling themselves victims and having their grievances addressed despite the legitimate concerns of a majority of the American people.
7
I fully agree with you that Christians continually call themselves victims. What can we do about it??
8
What are these legitimate concerns you wrote of?
"Another victory in the culture wars for the large class of people in this country who persist in calling themselves victims and having their grievances addressed despite the legitimate concerns of a majority of the American people."
Change the word "victory" to "defeat", and you will be spot on.
Change the word "victory" to "defeat", and you will be spot on.
11
There was nothing in Mr. Gates's statement that led me to believe that he has come to the realization that his (and the organization's) bigotry is wrong minded. Regardless of how they may ultimately craft their policies, I can't imagine why anyone would want to expose their son(s) to these narrow-minded relics of the past.
16
My son (who has a lesbian mom) is a Boy Scout despite both parents opposition to the discriminatory policies. Why? Because he likes pinewood derbies, learning outdoor skills, etc. It wouldn't be my first choice of after-school activity, but he loves it.
Many Boy Scout leaders don't agree with the policy anyway. While the Boy Scouts intransigence and discrimination disgust me, I don't believe that that is the message he's getting from them at the local level.
Many Boy Scout leaders don't agree with the policy anyway. While the Boy Scouts intransigence and discrimination disgust me, I don't believe that that is the message he's getting from them at the local level.
Apparently you are not aware of how much of the country is actually run by Eagle Scouts.
"Roman Catholics" are not mentioned anywhere in Mr. Gates' prepared remarks. This reference to Catholicism being opposed to gay Boy Scouts or Troop Leaders is something that the New York Times interjected which simply isn't true. In fact, the National Catholic Conference on Scouting stated that the BSA's policy welcoming gay scouts was NOT in conflict with Church teaching and urged local churches to continue their support of the BSA. The New York Times continues to perpetuate its anti-Catholic rhetoric.
4
That's interesting. Do you have a link to this statement?
"We must, at all costs, preserve the religious freedom of our church partners to do this."
To do what? To retain their persecutorial attitudes (my words, not those of President Gates) toward homosexual people, under the guise of "religious freedom", specifically with regard to excluding them from leadership in church-sponsored Scouting organizations and activities.
And would this be OK if the issue were banning those with a history of mental illness from such positions?Or African Americans? Or Asian Americans? Or....
Why is such persecution specifically acceptable relative to homosexuals, President Gates?
People are being killed in the Middle East (and elsewhere) right now for "religious" reasons. Is that acceptable also, because it's "religious"?
When will this irrationality cease? Prejudice is prejudice, and it's NEVER acceptable, because it's irrational. What part of that statement eludes your fine mind?
Your blatant acquiescence to expediency is hardly a novel position to take in this world. It's exactly the position taken by far too many leaders in the Catholic Church (among others) for decades, allowing them to ignore or cover up sexual abuse of children by their clergy. That position is that the organization comes before the people it serves.
There is nothing moral about this position, nothing at all.
The emperor has no clothes.
To do what? To retain their persecutorial attitudes (my words, not those of President Gates) toward homosexual people, under the guise of "religious freedom", specifically with regard to excluding them from leadership in church-sponsored Scouting organizations and activities.
And would this be OK if the issue were banning those with a history of mental illness from such positions?Or African Americans? Or Asian Americans? Or....
Why is such persecution specifically acceptable relative to homosexuals, President Gates?
People are being killed in the Middle East (and elsewhere) right now for "religious" reasons. Is that acceptable also, because it's "religious"?
When will this irrationality cease? Prejudice is prejudice, and it's NEVER acceptable, because it's irrational. What part of that statement eludes your fine mind?
Your blatant acquiescence to expediency is hardly a novel position to take in this world. It's exactly the position taken by far too many leaders in the Catholic Church (among others) for decades, allowing them to ignore or cover up sexual abuse of children by their clergy. That position is that the organization comes before the people it serves.
There is nothing moral about this position, nothing at all.
The emperor has no clothes.
32
FYI...The country was formed for the right to religious freedom. Don't like it? Tough. It's how it is and always will be. Feel free to go form your own.
BSA is a private organization that does not take govt funding in any way. They can dictate who can be a member.
BSA is a private organization that does not take govt funding in any way. They can dictate who can be a member.
Thank you, Mr. Gates. I look forward to the adoption of this sentiment as official policy. Without this change, I am unable to consider the Boy Scouts as an activity for my kindergartener.
What kind of example would it be to enroll him in an organization that enshrines discrimination in its policies? As an American, the very thought is repellent.
What kind of example would it be to enroll him in an organization that enshrines discrimination in its policies? As an American, the very thought is repellent.
45
It was only a matter of time. Those of us who realized they were "Knuckling under" to the influences of the LBGTQ crowd, knew that they'd eventually allow openly gay leaders. Sad day for the Boy Scouts. Very sad day.
12
So it's OK to be gay, join the army and die for your country but it's not ok to be gay in the Boy Scouts? What are you afraid of ScottyMB?
1
I doubt that seriously. Rather, I think the scouts declining popularity, narrow-mindedness, and irrelevance is probably playing a bigger role.
I have read several comments echoing this same sentiment. My question is: Why?
Why is this a sad day for BSA ?
How is the sexual orientation of a leader going to ruin scouting ? Do you think that gay leaders will try to turn a hetero boy into a gay one ? Really ?
Do you really think, as one commentator stated, that now boy scouts will get raped ? I am disgusted and shocked at these reactions.
Why is this a sad day for BSA ?
How is the sexual orientation of a leader going to ruin scouting ? Do you think that gay leaders will try to turn a hetero boy into a gay one ? Really ?
Do you really think, as one commentator stated, that now boy scouts will get raped ? I am disgusted and shocked at these reactions.
14
He firmly believes in gay rights, but more universally just in individual rights and citizenship. His careful language is aimed squarely at sponsoring organizations. Gates changed the policy towards gays at the CIA during his time there, I think one of--if not the first--agency to do so.
Ultimately being a leader is about sticking your neck out, and he walks the walk. You may not agree with his policy here and elsewhere, but we can all applaud his character.
Nonpartisan (and Eagle Scout, '90)
Ultimately being a leader is about sticking your neck out, and he walks the walk. You may not agree with his policy here and elsewhere, but we can all applaud his character.
Nonpartisan (and Eagle Scout, '90)
12
While East Coast liberals may applaud the move, the BSA might as well go out of business now. For every liberal parent that will might encourage their son to join, dozens more will leave. And thousands of troops will lose sponsorships, money and even a place to meet.
Which, of course, is the ultimate goal, isn't it? Just more "transformational change."
Which, of course, is the ultimate goal, isn't it? Just more "transformational change."
13
You should probably look at the data. More and more Americans are growing in acceptance of gays and lesbians. Fortunately, the country is evolving (not devolving) on this issue. Sorry that the 21st century doesn't agree with you.
17
Bigoted, small-minded, and paranoid scouts will lose money, sponsorships and a place to meet? And we should be sorry for this? Seems like just desserts.
9
Well, if the Boy Scouts really stands for what it's supposed to stand for, then all those homophobes who leave will simply enable the Scouts to become again what it once was; a proving ground for outstanding, creative, courageous, ethical and morally high-minded young men.
14
I went through BSA and it taught me to value and appreciate nature, and in general, to be a good citizen. I'm so glad to see they continuing to shed their policies of exclusion. Hopefully more young people will be inclined to join.
12
"Mr. Gates said in his prepared remarks Thursday, released by the Boy Scouts, that the national leadership would take no action against defiant local councils."
Thanks for the (long overdue) acknowledgement, but I honestly think the use of the word "defiant" here is a little laughable at this point.
The BSA is comprised of several local councils, and the national organization has never had the power to set policy for the councils. Many councils have had non-discrimination policies posted on their websites for years. Further down the line, I suspect that troops also do all sorts of things that aren't "by the book" that the councils don't know or care about. Remember that each troop is a volunteer organization, the money comes from local troop fundraising and and national doesn't exactly have satellite surveillance, drones or a police force on the ground.
I'm glad to see some sense finally coming from the top, but truly, power has ALWAYS rested on the bottom within the BSA.
Thanks for the (long overdue) acknowledgement, but I honestly think the use of the word "defiant" here is a little laughable at this point.
The BSA is comprised of several local councils, and the national organization has never had the power to set policy for the councils. Many councils have had non-discrimination policies posted on their websites for years. Further down the line, I suspect that troops also do all sorts of things that aren't "by the book" that the councils don't know or care about. Remember that each troop is a volunteer organization, the money comes from local troop fundraising and and national doesn't exactly have satellite surveillance, drones or a police force on the ground.
I'm glad to see some sense finally coming from the top, but truly, power has ALWAYS rested on the bottom within the BSA.
5
I am troubled by Mr. Gates' phrase "we must deal with the world as it it, not as we might wish it to be". Does he and the national movement still wish for a world in which homosexuality did not exist? Does he wish for a world in which it is acceptable to discriminate against gay Scout leaders? I'd prefer that he instead say, "Our past policy of discrimination was wrong, and I am calling for an end to it immediately." Of course that would go against Mr. Gates' homophobia.
30
Many people have written a comment similar to yours about Mr. Gate's language. If you try, you may be able to see, that the the language is designed to placate the resistant element.
The language is designed to achieve the result of integration of the gay population whilst minimizing the alienation of those who resist the change.
On the surface the language is disappointing, beneath the surface, genius.
The language is designed to achieve the result of integration of the gay population whilst minimizing the alienation of those who resist the change.
On the surface the language is disappointing, beneath the surface, genius.
2
I was so excited to read the headline and thought great, it's about time. Then I read Mr. Gates' quote “we must deal with the world as it is, not as we might wish it to be,” and that “any other alternative will be the end of us as a national movement.” Shame on him!
49
Amazing that it's taken decades for Boy Scouts to realize that the problem is not the sexual orientation of adults working with Scouts. Pedophilia is not a "gay" problem. The challenge is to teach young people to say NO and report pedophiles (most of whom in Scouting have been married men) and to teach Scouts and their volunteers and staff that inappropriate sexual advances or contact with Scouts will not be tolerated. When I served as executive director of an LGBT social service organization in Chicago with a strong youth services program, the protections and training for youth, for volunteers, and for staff were admirable - and something that the Boy Scouts would do well to emulate. Maybe BSA will finally get it that they have been scapegoating the wrong group.
36
“The challenge is to teach young people to say no,and report pedophiles.”
Where did you get the idea that young people had the option of “saying no” to pedophiles? Do you also believe that women who are raped have the option of “saying no” to rapists? If enough victims “Just Say No”,that will end rape and pedophilia?
Are you serious?
Where did you get the idea that young people had the option of “saying no” to pedophiles? Do you also believe that women who are raped have the option of “saying no” to rapists? If enough victims “Just Say No”,that will end rape and pedophilia?
Are you serious?
2
DJS - I know more than one person who has been molested as a child and in two of those cases they said that part of the problem was that they were taught that they always had to do obey adults and were never allowed to challenge them or say no.
Teaching children about inappropriate touching and empowering them to speak up does help.
Teaching children about inappropriate touching and empowering them to speak up does help.
7
I'm wondering if this fault-line decision will shake up the counsels among the five right-wing justices on the Roberts court as they get set to decide the same-sex marriage case now before them. Is it possible that we are actually becoming a tolerant society, accommodating others' differences?
4
Why is this man not our President?? He is one of our few accomplished leaders who follows no political bent and bows to nothing except good judgement and common sense. What an outstanding leader for our country and our society. GO BOB!!!
I find it disheartening that an organization such as the Boy Scouts is run by the person that used to run the CIA and was secretary of defense. It brings to light how this organization has morphed into a recruitment pipeline for the military (all scouts from my year joined the military except for me, and it brings all the visits to military bases for camping into perspective). At some point in the late 1990s the Boy Scouts morphed into a jingoistic religiously intolerant organization, so this is a point toward moving back to sanity. However, they don't deserve accolades, rather one should ask, "What took you so long?"
12
I don't mind gay people, think they should have all the rights and protections any other citizen has but my son will be the first generation of my family since the 1930s not involved in scouting and this ideological push is the reason why.
I wouldn't send my daughter on a weekend camping trip with a heterosexual man without some pretty hefty oversight and sending my son on a camping trip with gay troop leaders is no different.
It's just not legit in any conceivable way and anyone who thinks otherwise is delusional.
I wouldn't send my daughter on a weekend camping trip with a heterosexual man without some pretty hefty oversight and sending my son on a camping trip with gay troop leaders is no different.
It's just not legit in any conceivable way and anyone who thinks otherwise is delusional.
8
So in other words, "I'm not a bigot, but gay people can't be trusted.".
Got it!
Got it!
21
It's scary to think that someone this ignorant is making decisions about children's welfare.
You might want to pay attention to the number of straight men who have abused children.
You might want to pay attention to the number of straight men who have abused children.
21
Interesting logic. I would prefer that my son goes on an overnight trip with a gay scout leader than a Catholic one.
28
I'm a straight, former Eagle Scout and Scout Leader who sent my Eagle badge back to Scout Headquarters years ago in protest over this issue. You are pointing in the right direction, Mr. Gates, but you're not going far enough. Let's get over the half-in/half-out approach (reminiscent of the don't ask / don't tell policy formerly in place in the military) and build an organization - with both gay scouts and gay leaders - that can stand behind the basic principles of equality and fairness the Scouts purport to espouse. Why should personal, highly variable religious doctrine determine the policies of the Boy Scouts? Isn't that the tail wagging the dog? If a religious institution has trouble reconciling itself to basic principles of equality and fairness, then it doesn't deserve a place at the same table with the Boy Scouts.
200
And I'm another former Eagle Scout who supports those lads chasing Eagle but ceased giving funds many years ago, angered by the homophobic stance. My 1950's church sponsored troop welcomed all. As did the troops where I provided leadership. My grandchildren are missing out. Our 10,000 member mountaineering club teams with the Girl Scouts, but not the Boy Scouts. Mr Gates, open wider the door. Sweep out the bigotry flying the banner of religious freedom. The Boy Scouts are no place for cultural segregation. And, would it be possible to ask leaders to back off on the prosletyzing?
1
Whether you are straight or not, you point of view would be equally valid.
1
Next step the Girl Scouts must also get into the real world and recruit men to be troop leaders.
3
Men have been able to be GSUSA leaders for quite a while now. Why not comment on things you know something about, instead of making up lies?
A lot of girls don't have a dad, or their own father is absent or abusive. What a gift it would be to have a decent male role model in their lives. Remember, not ALL men are rapists.
The Girl Scouts already allow men to be troop leaders (and to participate in trips, etc.)
Let's be honest, for a change. The Bible is full of rules and prohibitions that virtually all Americans of this day and age ignore. As far as the Bible reveals, Jesus never said anything about homosexuality, but he did state his clear disapproval of divorce. Are all divorced men excluded from leadership positions in Scouting? No. Why the hypocrisy?
If we are honest, we have to admit that many so-called "Christians" do not live their lives according to the dictates of the Bible, but only use the Bible as a stick to beat people they don't like, including gays and lesbians. That is what is behind most if not all of the discrimination against gays and lesbians on "religious" grounds. Why lie about it?
If we are honest, we have to admit that many so-called "Christians" do not live their lives according to the dictates of the Bible, but only use the Bible as a stick to beat people they don't like, including gays and lesbians. That is what is behind most if not all of the discrimination against gays and lesbians on "religious" grounds. Why lie about it?
268
He did say something about homosexuality. Something to the effect that if a man lays with a man it is wrong. The liberals use their so called political correctness to beat people they don't like. Example: The word thug has nothing to do with color and I'm sure the majority know that. A thug can be any color.
Just in the interest of scholarship, jacrane is wrong, but, in any event, had Christ condemned homosexuality, I would consider even him a bigot. And opposing prejudice can never serve as an example of "political correctness".
1
The standard for leadership should be character, integrity
and ethical conduct. These qualities are demonstrated by how
we live our lives each day, what we do in public and private, what
we say, how we act, what we think and how we respond. Individuals
of true character and integrity are rare enough -- so let a person stand
(as others have said) on the content of their character.
and ethical conduct. These qualities are demonstrated by how
we live our lives each day, what we do in public and private, what
we say, how we act, what we think and how we respond. Individuals
of true character and integrity are rare enough -- so let a person stand
(as others have said) on the content of their character.
21
How ironic! Throughout all of these years the Boy Scouts of America never blinked an eye about having a leader who, in his professional life, lead an institution that tortured prisoners, destabilized and tumbled foreign governments, assassinated foreign leaders, provided false information to the US Senate and spied on its own citizens, among other things. Who elects the Boy Scouts' leaders? Obviously those on the board don't understand what morals are really about! Do parents know what kind of values are being instilled on their children?
82
Scouting - today's training for tomorrow's leaders.
Get a merit badge in waterboarding!
Get a merit badge in waterboarding!
Boy Scouts’ President Calls for End to Religious Homophobia......sort of.
“We must, at all costs, preserve the religious freedom of our church partners to do this.”...said Gates
"Religious freedom" is code for 'religious bigotry freedom'.
This is a half-step at best
“We must, at all costs, preserve the religious freedom of our church partners to do this.”...said Gates
"Religious freedom" is code for 'religious bigotry freedom'.
This is a half-step at best
91
Half step, is better than no step.
The Scouts enter the real world. Congratulations!
6
BSA is still trying to have its cake and eat it by allowing sponsoring organizations to discriminate. Further, there's still no word of a change to the ban on atheists and agnostics in Scouting.
21
And what pray tell, does he wish the world to be like?!
12
Welcome to 2015, Boy Scouts.
8
So, did anyone ask the kids?
4
left to their own devices, most kids would view being gay no different than having blue versus brown eyes. that is of course, if they haven't been poisoned by homophobic adults.
12
This is disgusting....he got to grab headlines and look like he was abolishing discrimination....and then you read the fine print and realize that he is still allowing it by giving the exception to various religious organizations. The churches that do not subscribe to equal treatment of ALL people "under god" can find other groups to sponsor!!!! So Mr. Gates does not get any kudos from me.
18
What does it matter anymore. There is no Boy Scouts of America anyhow, only scouts effectively.
2
It's about time. Why take 2 more years? It's time for the Boy Scouts to move into the present, dump the bigotry, and face reality: being gay is not wrong, not unacceptable, and not a choice. 2 years? Hurry up already
15
It's a choice. After all, don't liberals ALSO SAY that everyone is basically bi-sexual, along a continuum from mostly straight to mostly gay? And bisexuals can choose whoever they want to be with at any time.
Concerned Citizen - Please cite the instances of liberals saying this.
Do you never tire of looking ignorant and mean spirited?
Do you never tire of looking ignorant and mean spirited?
12
While they are at it, they should revisit their ban on atheists too. But then it wouldn't be the same bigoted organization that we all know and love.
129
I agree. Their ban on atheists, agnostics, etc ceased making any sense years ago. Even better would be a decision to open up troop sponsorship opportunities to recognized humanist organizations.
10
How would they know? Is there some sort of test? Atheism is easy to hide.
3
Whether a gay person should be allowed to be a boy scout leader would seem to depend on whether they are gay male or gay female. It would seem that allowing gay females to be boy scout leaders would be a violation of the basic maleness of the BOY scouts. Similarly, allowing a gay male to be a leader of the GIRL scouts would be a violation of the basic femaleness of that organization. It would not seem to be a question of whether a gay person should be accepted in either organization, but of what kind of gay person is appropriate for each organization.
on this point you are completely wrong.
some of the best leaders of the scouts
are women. from merit badge counselors
to scoutmasters, women have served for
may years as leaders.
some of the best leaders of the scouts
are women. from merit badge counselors
to scoutmasters, women have served for
may years as leaders.
10
Do you really not know the difference between gender and sexual orientation?
11
Scratching my head.
4
Robert Gates also said that in the name of religious freedom (or 'religious bigotry freedom', as it were), the Scouts should allow local sponsoring organizations “to determine the standards for their Scout leaders.”
“Such an approach would allow all churches, which sponsor some 70 percent of our Scout units, to establish leadership standards consistent with their faith”... and “we must, at all costs, preserve the religious (bigotry) freedom of our church partners to do this", said Gates.
No, Mr. Gates, we don't need to preserve religious bigotry freedom at all costs; what we must do is let religious bigotry freedom wither and die on its own vine of spite and ill will toward others.
It's the Boy Scouts of America, not the Boy Scouts of the Bible.
“Such an approach would allow all churches, which sponsor some 70 percent of our Scout units, to establish leadership standards consistent with their faith”... and “we must, at all costs, preserve the religious (bigotry) freedom of our church partners to do this", said Gates.
No, Mr. Gates, we don't need to preserve religious bigotry freedom at all costs; what we must do is let religious bigotry freedom wither and die on its own vine of spite and ill will toward others.
It's the Boy Scouts of America, not the Boy Scouts of the Bible.
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The thing is, these churches do more to support local packs and troops than national does! Troops need facilities in which to meet, and they need insurance. 70% of troops get that from their chartered organization, the church. Follow the money...
Troops that oppose discrimination need public places that will accommodate them.
Troops that oppose discrimination need public places that will accommodate them.
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If he seriously believes his own statement, then religious groups could easily decide to only allow leaders who are of their faith. Or who fit their political views. It is patently ridiculous.
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To Anon in NY--my Congregational church, is "open and affirming(OAA)", as are most if not all in the UCC, meaning accepting of all sexual orientations, we sponsor a BSA troop ( I will not let my son join BSA til it becomes OAA.) There are many such protestant church congregations, just look around.
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I assume that religious organizations, particularly the Catholic Church, opposes gay scout leaders out of a concern regarding pedophilia. If they are sincere about it, they should address the pedophilia in thier own ranks!
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Pedophilia is unrelated to sexual orientation. The Catholic Church isn’t sincere about addressing pedophilia.
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danf sez: "I assume that religious organizations, particularly the Catholic Church, opposes gay scout leaders out of a concern regarding pedophilia."
Not that you were suggesting otherwise, danf, but I'd like to emphasize that pedophilia is an issue unrelated to sexual orientation.
Not that you were suggesting otherwise, danf, but I'd like to emphasize that pedophilia is an issue unrelated to sexual orientation.
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Allowing churches sponsoring troops the privilege of discriminating against gay leaders is not about religious freedom. It is about churches taking a discriminatory stance on a social issue and using a debatable interpretation of an ancient text to justify it after the fact . The Boy Scouts of America should determine its own standards for adult leaders and hold every sponsor to account.
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The Boy Scouts have determined their standards.They have determined that they
will allow churches to discriminated against homosexuals.
will allow churches to discriminated against homosexuals.
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Robert Gates' distinguished, bipartisan career makes him the ideal person to deliver a message of change. His personal credibility should show people that it's OK to move on.
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Dear Boy Scouts,
Welcome to your entry into the 21st century.
May your Mormon, Catholic, and other sponsoring organizations join you soon.
Welcome to your entry into the 21st century.
May your Mormon, Catholic, and other sponsoring organizations join you soon.
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I applaud this change, but gotta admit I twitched a little when I read the quote from Mr. Gates, “we must deal with the world as it is, not as we wish it to be.”
Zach Wahls, is quoted saying that this is the beginning of a long “inner dialogue” for the organization. I look forward to the day when our dialogue results in a society that actually wishes that equality, not homo-phobia, were “as we wish it to be.”
Zach Wahls, is quoted saying that this is the beginning of a long “inner dialogue” for the organization. I look forward to the day when our dialogue results in a society that actually wishes that equality, not homo-phobia, were “as we wish it to be.”
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Well, looks like I might end up letting my two boys join the Scouts after all.
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This is an en excellent decision. Why should fundamentalist religious groups be allowed to dictate exclusionary policies for anyone but themselves?
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Ask the Supreme Court; I understand they can explain all that, at least to their own satisfaction.
Gates is one of the true American realists, who also happens to be a statesman. There's an old saying that statesmen are dead politicians; however, Gates is very much alive.
His observations on the deteriorating situation on the middle east, are also objective, and free of the vitriol and rancor of the right-wing lunatics that make up the majority of the Republican Party.
His observations on the deteriorating situation on the middle east, are also objective, and free of the vitriol and rancor of the right-wing lunatics that make up the majority of the Republican Party.
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Alex, I think you just validated George's point.
Thank you, Mr. Gates, for allowing the Boy Scouts to enter the 21st Century. As an Eagle scout, I will no longer be ashamed to tell people that I was, and still am a Boy Scout.
Peter
Peter
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Until they start excepting atheists, I'd still be ashamed.
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The tepid statement "we must deal with the world as it is, not as we might wish it to be" (sounding resigned in every word choice) went on to reveal a truth that all homophobic individuals and institutions will have to confront: "any other alternative will be the end of us as a national movement." That is the truth for all those who would discriminate - your choice is whether to embrace the LBGT community with open arms or through clenched teeth, but our society has moved on from accepting the prejudice. Cling to antiquated biases and make yourselves extinct.
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What drivvle. Just because someone doesn't believe the way you do does not make them bad or good. Based on your use of words, it surely will not be homosexuals going extinct.
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Not just tepid, but begrudging, as if even Gates himself "wish[ed] it to be".
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Like liberal Protestant churches, that have bent over backwards to make themselves "gay friendly", the Boy Scouts will have schism and then fall apart into total irrelevancy. Nobody is going to want to send their little boys to an organization that promotes homosexuality.
3