We demand a democratic election in Egypt and then decide we don't like the outcome so we sit by while the military overthrows the govt. and then imprisons the winner. What kind of a foreign policy do we have?
2
This is the country whom US lifted the arms embargo.
A dictatorship!
Once USA was exporting democracy, probably not any more.
A dictatorship!
Once USA was exporting democracy, probably not any more.
1
Egypt is exhibit A of American foreign policy going stray due to uncontrollable socio-political forces taking shape in the Middle East. The badlam conflict in the region is out of control and Washington's intervention can only aggravate it.
Egypt is fundamental for the security of Israel which -- for foreign policy purpose -- is America's 51 state. Washington supports any Egyptian political regime that guarantees Israel's homeland safety.
President Morsi's kangaroo trial and imprisonment will stiff resistance among the outlawed Muslim Brotherhood, representing the majority poor. General turned president Abdel Fattah el-Sisi -- with economic-military support of Washington -- has enabled the creation of local jihadist groups, reinforcing the Islamic State franchise.
What happens next in Egypt is not too complicated to be prognosticated. The country will sooner than later be engulfed into civil war similar to Syria, Iraq and Yemen. The number of Middle East refugees seeking protection in Europe will grow by hundred of thousands.
Egypt is fundamental for the security of Israel which -- for foreign policy purpose -- is America's 51 state. Washington supports any Egyptian political regime that guarantees Israel's homeland safety.
President Morsi's kangaroo trial and imprisonment will stiff resistance among the outlawed Muslim Brotherhood, representing the majority poor. General turned president Abdel Fattah el-Sisi -- with economic-military support of Washington -- has enabled the creation of local jihadist groups, reinforcing the Islamic State franchise.
What happens next in Egypt is not too complicated to be prognosticated. The country will sooner than later be engulfed into civil war similar to Syria, Iraq and Yemen. The number of Middle East refugees seeking protection in Europe will grow by hundred of thousands.
3
I can't believe NYT readers are still arguing about and for the one-year leadership of the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt, which gave birth to Al-Qaeda, Hamas, Nusra, Ansar Beit al-Maqdis, Libiya Dawn, Boko Haram, etc etc.
If you think Egypt is run by military junta then you have no idea what the expression really means. We have a secular civil government in Egypt with religious freedoms, elections, economic development and plans for prosperity. A former military leader turn president does not make a military junta. How many U.S. presidents we're proud of, been military leaders? Using your logic then the U.S. was run by military junta.
The military responded to the Egyptian people's uprising after Morsi refused to step down or enable early election, or apologize for perverting the constitution to give himself unlimited powers. And that is that. If you want to chase rumors and propaganda then that is your prerogative, but you cannot argue in favor of "Islamic Government," and if you love it so much then you're welcome to nominate Muslim Brothers to the U.S. government.
If you think Egypt is run by military junta then you have no idea what the expression really means. We have a secular civil government in Egypt with religious freedoms, elections, economic development and plans for prosperity. A former military leader turn president does not make a military junta. How many U.S. presidents we're proud of, been military leaders? Using your logic then the U.S. was run by military junta.
The military responded to the Egyptian people's uprising after Morsi refused to step down or enable early election, or apologize for perverting the constitution to give himself unlimited powers. And that is that. If you want to chase rumors and propaganda then that is your prerogative, but you cannot argue in favor of "Islamic Government," and if you love it so much then you're welcome to nominate Muslim Brothers to the U.S. government.
8
So the general who overthrew a legally-elected government and currently tortures his political opponents now passes judgment on his predecessor for (allegedly) torturing his political opponents. And to show he means business he also makes certain that an American citizen who demonstrated peacefully against his regime also gets to spend quality time in an Egyptian prison. And we continue to send this guy billions of dollars worth of military assistance simply because he keeps the peace with Israel. Truly dismaying.
10
He was democratically elected, but once in office he lost the support of many Egyptians by favoring the Muslim Brotherhood's attempt to make Egypt a one-party state. He did not hold out a hand to his opponents, which makes any comparison the Mandela disingenuous.
That's not a defense of the military, but Egypt has been an oligarchy for most of its existence. Transition to democracy would have been difficult under any circumstances and, unfortunately, Morsi overplayed his hand.
That's not a defense of the military, but Egypt has been an oligarchy for most of its existence. Transition to democracy would have been difficult under any circumstances and, unfortunately, Morsi overplayed his hand.
6
Why not compare the military coup d'etat against Morsi in Egypt and his sentencing with the overthrow of Mosaddegh in Iran, 60 years earlier. We all know what happened in Iran, the public resentment grew and grew and exploded in 1979 with the Islamic Revolution. We can only speculate what will happen in Egypt in the years to come. The Muslim Brotherhood will not dissolve after Morsi's is executed or imprisoned, he will become a martyr. Is this the way to kill democracy in the Arab world?
10
Democracy in the Arab world is deader than a doornail. Maybe Tunisia has a chance, or maybe not. Democracy, where it exists, generally developed over an extended number of years in places that had at least some experience in parliamentary government. Among the democratic governments in the Middle East, the principle ones -- Turkey and Iran -- are not Arabs by culture or language.
3
It's a valid point, but where is there democracy in the Arab world to kill? Even when a nominally democratic system is set up, as in Iraq and Egypt, the first thing the new leader does is circumvent all its provisions to obtain dictatorial power. Even Turkey is now moving back in that direction (not that it ever moved very far from it). Which raises an interesting question -- is Islam incompatible with democracy?
1
Qaddafi was very popular and democratically elected. Had he not renounced nuclear power/weapons he would still be in power.
No wonder Iran's leadership will never consider giving up their nuclear ambition. Their nuclear ambition is the only thing keeping them from being attacked by the West.
Those that abandon their nuclear ambitions end up dead at the hands of American imperialism.
If you want your regime to survive keep your nukes.
No wonder Iran's leadership will never consider giving up their nuclear ambition. Their nuclear ambition is the only thing keeping them from being attacked by the West.
Those that abandon their nuclear ambitions end up dead at the hands of American imperialism.
If you want your regime to survive keep your nukes.
Let this be a lesson to the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt, and to the country's only democratically elected President, Mohamed Morsi, that, without the military dictatorship's backing, it doesn't matter who the people of Egypt decide they want to lead them. Morsi had a brief political window to make a difference, but thought he had to become a Muslim version of Mubarak, which was the beginning of the end of his popular support. If you are going to be a dictator in Egypt, you have to commit to the process 100%, but you also have to be part of the military.
Meanwhile, the U.S. continues to send Egypt 1.5 billion dollars every year because their economy is permanently dysfunctional, and relies primarily on tourists who visit the relics of a set of administrations from 3,000 years ago, the Pharaohs's tombs, commonly known as the pyramids of Egypt. I doubt the former general, and current president, el-Sisi, will leave as substantial a legacy for this economic and morally bankrupt country, many of whose people live in complete poverty. For these people, their miseries continue no matter who is in power.
1
April 21, 2015
Great leaders with noble spirit lead with the olive branch and especially when engineering the polity towards successful moral, spiritual harmony for the love of the nation Egypt. Morsi can be, with faith become the next Nelson Mandela of Mother Africa and the world -
jja Manhattan, N. Y.
Great leaders with noble spirit lead with the olive branch and especially when engineering the polity towards successful moral, spiritual harmony for the love of the nation Egypt. Morsi can be, with faith become the next Nelson Mandela of Mother Africa and the world -
jja Manhattan, N. Y.
5
Any US government that supports the military dictatorship in Egypt does not get my support. It appears as if the US government places more value in having a government friendly to Israel than in democratic values, human rights, having a government in Egypt that will be a respectable member of the World community. If Obama can't act better, if is doubtful Clinton will let alone the other yoyos.
5
Back to square one. Egypt is certainly not ready for democracy!
1
"The military's action in taking this soon to be theocratic ruler out of play was necessary."
Hmm, a military dictatorship that has autocratically ruled and stolen billions for 40 years, overthrows a democratically elected president and you are ok with that? Shocking!!!
Hmm, a military dictatorship that has autocratically ruled and stolen billions for 40 years, overthrows a democratically elected president and you are ok with that? Shocking!!!
7
For the millionth time, Morsi wasn't elected democratically but because the vote was split. And he then went about dismantling the new democratic institutions and passing a constitution that would have made Egypt a theocracy and insured the perpetual rule of the Brotherhood. Had Morsi respected democracy, he would likely still be in office today, as the public would not have risen up, inviting military intervention.
4
What a farce . I am ashamed that our government has now quietly started supplying arms again to the "government" of Egypt and has gone silent about a democratically elected president being overthrown by a corrupt military . Shameful .
8
A Rasmussen poll found that only 18% of Americans support U.S. military aid to the al-Sisi dictatorship. Among Obama voters, I suspect support is in the single digits. So why are we giving them billions in military aid which they use to repress their own people? Are we not a democracy, or do special interests command our foreign policy? (No, that's not a serious question. It's an obvious fact that the mainstream media is complicit in hiding from the American people.)
11
USA promised in the Camp David Agreement to provide aid to Egypt as long as USA provides aid to Israel. So the reason USA is unwilling to stop aid to Egypt is for the benefit of Israel.
4
We give Egypt billions so they won't attack Israel.
6
This why we have a republic rather than direct democracy. The public's view of world affairs is hopelessly naive.
1
The American news media seems to conveniently leave out the fact that The President of the United States invited the Muslim Brotherhood to his famous Cairo speech. He then demanded that Mubarak must go and then demanded that Morsi must stay. Mr. Obama has met several times in the White House with the Muslim Brotherhood but now there is not a peep about this since Morsi and other Muslim Brotherhood members have been arrested and deemed enemies of Egypt.
6
I guess Morsi forgot to make his donation the the Clinton Initiative????????
Oppps!
Whatever happened top Al-Qaida chief Ayman al-Zawahiri???? He is an Egyptian physician and they never captured him!!!!! He was supposedly involved in 911 and was Al-CIA-das #2 guy.
How come we never, ever hear about Al-Qaida chief Ayman al-Zawahiri??????
The NSA can check out your dirty pics but they can't find Ayman????
Is anyone else bothered by this?
Oppps!
Whatever happened top Al-Qaida chief Ayman al-Zawahiri???? He is an Egyptian physician and they never captured him!!!!! He was supposedly involved in 911 and was Al-CIA-das #2 guy.
How come we never, ever hear about Al-Qaida chief Ayman al-Zawahiri??????
The NSA can check out your dirty pics but they can't find Ayman????
Is anyone else bothered by this?
4
This man was duly elected by a majority of his county. Score another victory for the AIPAC seeking to expand the Israel at the expense of Palestine.
10
@Robert. HA HA HA !!! You seem to. be confused. It was broad based Egyptian publican opinion AGAINST Morai's bout to. become totalitarian regime - as the folks took to. the streets - that led the Egyptian Army to make a "democracy-correction" and depose him.
4
I'm going to guess you stopped following this story after the election. However, if you kept following this story you would know that once elected, Morsi sided with the radical elements of the Islamisits. They started to dismantling any form of dissension and started to arrest members of the opposition. With the election they moved further away from democracy and closer to Iranian state giving clerics the ultimate power outside of their congress. Street protests broke out and the army stepped in and took over which the majority backed.
2
Well, one good thing about blaming the Jews is that if you didn't you'd probably be blaming America.
As to Morsi's election, no, he wasn't elected by a majority. The majority opposed the fellow. He wont because the opposition vote was split.
As to Morsi's election, no, he wasn't elected by a majority. The majority opposed the fellow. He wont because the opposition vote was split.
Almost all, if not all, Islamic countries are theocracies. Those theocracies -- and Morsi and his thugs were well into transforming Egypt into that sad condition -- are universally the oppressors of their residents' rights -- he was doing so for months before being deposed -- and enemies of the West.
If the alternative is not democracy -- which has not succeeded even once in those countries -- but another form of autocratic rule that we can work with, that latter is by far to be preferred.
The military's action in taking this soon to be theocratic ruler out of play was necessary. The judgment reached in these proceedings is, by the evidence we've seen, correct. And the suppression, preferably complete annihilation, of Islamic extremist groups -- exemplified by Egypt's Muslim Brotherhood -- wherever they are found is in the best interest of those countries' general populations as well as the West.
If the alternative is not democracy -- which has not succeeded even once in those countries -- but another form of autocratic rule that we can work with, that latter is by far to be preferred.
The military's action in taking this soon to be theocratic ruler out of play was necessary. The judgment reached in these proceedings is, by the evidence we've seen, correct. And the suppression, preferably complete annihilation, of Islamic extremist groups -- exemplified by Egypt's Muslim Brotherhood -- wherever they are found is in the best interest of those countries' general populations as well as the West.
15
Your statements are preposterous fantasy. Had it not been for US interference in the Arab Spring hundreds of thousands of people would still be alive and millions of refugees would still be living in their homes.
There are those in our military who ought to be waiting trail in the Hague for crimes against humanity for racketeering in the borders of sovereign nations.
There are those in our military who ought to be waiting trail in the Hague for crimes against humanity for racketeering in the borders of sovereign nations.
3
If you take a step back, significant portions of the U.S. also fall under the category of theocracy.
6
I call it by the most succinct description. The US Gov't is no more than a petty tyranny. Cowards that like to shot you in the back.
1
So much for U.S. claims of promoting democracy in Middle East; actions surely speak louder than words.
12
After Morsi tried to crush dissension and started to arrest members of the opposition after the election as well as outlawing secular aspects of Egyptian life the EGYPTIAN people rose up again and the EGYPTIAN army backed them in overthrowing this guy. Perhaps its best if these countries figure out what works for them instead of the USA forcing "democracy" on cultures and peoples that do not want it.
4
Not sure what the US is supposed to do. We did cut aid for a while. We have no way of getting the generals to step down, and, even if we did, the Brotherhood would be worse.
3
I've never read a story about an Egyptian court that made me feel comfortable, but if they can try one of their nation's leaders for torture, so can we.
28
Morsi's biggest mistake after winning Egypt's first free election was not arresting the officers of the military.
13
You must have known the adviser to the Turkish Sultan Erdogan
1
Mubarak wasn't all that bad. He denied freedom to the Muslim Brotherhood, but less so than his successor. He and his wife fought against female genital mutilation (FGM), which nobody in the West mentions, since it might make Mubarak look less bad. Overthrowing Mubarak was a mistake.
It is interesting that Obama supported the ousting of Mubarak but did not make the slightest trace of a statement supporting the Green Revolution that took place in Iran in 2009-2010, and was violently suppressed. Obama has never opposed Iran's mullahs.
It is interesting that Obama supported the ousting of Mubarak but did not make the slightest trace of a statement supporting the Green Revolution that took place in Iran in 2009-2010, and was violently suppressed. Obama has never opposed Iran's mullahs.
6
Blaming Morsi for female circumcision is a new one. It's a practice that predates organized religion and remains common among Africa's poor and uneducated population whatever their nominal faith may be. How about redirecting some of those billions for attack helicopters to raise the education level and standard of living among Egypts poor? Never mind. We don't want that. They might vote the 'wrong' way.
2
Morsi did not create female circumcision. He merely ended the ban against it. But he did bring it back.
Nobody on the left has ever opposed female circumcision. Leftists always support Islamists.
Nobody on the left has ever opposed female circumcision. Leftists always support Islamists.
1
The U.S. and its allies are literally supporting terrorists in Syria.
The refugees who drowned the other day are fleeing the chaos US foreign policy, *predictably* created in Libya.
http://johnpilger.com/articles/why-the-rise-of-fascism-is-again-the-issue
The list of countries which the US has committed violence against is in the dozens. The civilians killed - in the millions.
When do we look in the mirror and ask whether *we* may have become that which we once thought we were fighting?
The refugees who drowned the other day are fleeing the chaos US foreign policy, *predictably* created in Libya.
http://johnpilger.com/articles/why-the-rise-of-fascism-is-again-the-issue
The list of countries which the US has committed violence against is in the dozens. The civilians killed - in the millions.
When do we look in the mirror and ask whether *we* may have become that which we once thought we were fighting?
15
Because we have an uninformed and uncaring electorate that easily falls under the sway of demagogues, whose lofty rhetoric makes their election possible. This is a non-partisan criticism because both Democrats and Republicans are guilty both as parts of the electorate and as parts of the government.
5
Excellent post, Mike D.
America had no right to invade Iraq or Afghanistan or even to interfere in Arab/Muslim Wars in Libya, Syria, Afghanistan, Pakistan and Somalia under any excuse.
Neither of those States are living peace than before the American invasion. Bush stupid lie of weapons of mass destruction was proved to be fake. America needs to stop being the police of the World and mind its own business. American tax dollars are given to Israel today to occupy Palestine is also a great mistake as it is the mother of all conflicts in the M.East.
America had no right to invade Iraq or Afghanistan or even to interfere in Arab/Muslim Wars in Libya, Syria, Afghanistan, Pakistan and Somalia under any excuse.
Neither of those States are living peace than before the American invasion. Bush stupid lie of weapons of mass destruction was proved to be fake. America needs to stop being the police of the World and mind its own business. American tax dollars are given to Israel today to occupy Palestine is also a great mistake as it is the mother of all conflicts in the M.East.
6
Because I look at the people we're fighting and no, we haven't become them, or anything like.
Egypt is so dismal. Between the military junta and the Brotherhood, what is there to choose from? At least the place is stable ... for now.
1
@Innocent Bystander - Good question (what is there to choose from?). Brotherhood - you get a theocratic totalitarian regime allied with Suni terrorists and intent on circumsizing your daughters and keeping them under wraps. Military - you get an autocratic government who keeps the peace (for the vast majority of Egyptians) and allies with western countries.
Is that really a choice? :)
Is that really a choice? :)
3
Ironically, prior to the Arab spring, Egypt was relatively stable under the dictatorship of Mubarak. In fact, I'd venture to say many dictators are able to have reasonably long tenures because they provide some level of stability through their iron fists. Not good if you're under the iron fist, but not as horrible if you're not...
Of all the governments that America so generously supports, Egypt and Saudi Arabia are the hardest to stomach. The Egyptian people wanted an islamist government and voted accordingly, now they are back to square 1 with the military dictatorship that thrived under Mubarak. And we don't even blink when doing business with the military gangsters that run the deep state there. Too much money to be made for US arms manufacturers.
23
@Lee. - where were you when Egyptians took to the streets against Morsi's theocratic, totalitarian, girl-circumsizing regime? The Army coup returned Egypt to normal. You may despise authoritarian regimes - but how come you warm up to totalitarianism, the kinds of regimes responsible in the 20th century for the slaughter of 100+ million human beings?
4
An independent analysis published in the Atlantic ("Was Mohammed Morsi Really An Autocrat?") found that Morsi's government was NOT repressive. This is a lie promulgated by counter-revolutionary forces, just like the claim that Morsi supported female circumcision. When you don't have the facts on your side, just throw up gunk and see what sticks.
7
Actually, the Egyptian people never wanted or voted for an Islamist government. Morsi won because the opposition vote was split and promptly went to work to create a Muslim Brotherhood theocracy. That is not to defend this mockery of a trial or the military dictatorship, but to point out that Egyptian democracy never really had a chance.
SO this man is being convicted for committing the crime of being popularly elected by his country? For standing strong against Israeli oppression?
I didn't know AIPAC's reach was so far flung.
I didn't know AIPAC's reach was so far flung.
18
Abdel Fattah el-Sisi and his court system do not need AIPAC to convict Mr. Morsi.
Mr. Morsi stood strong with Hamas, enabled them to construct tunnels and smuggle weapons to engage in acts of terror and to construct a terror infrastructure in concert is radical Islamists in Egypt. Egypt still suffers from this terror infrastructure.
Whether he stood strong against Israel or not, he also stood strong against Egypt.
Mr. Morsi stood strong with Hamas, enabled them to construct tunnels and smuggle weapons to engage in acts of terror and to construct a terror infrastructure in concert is radical Islamists in Egypt. Egypt still suffers from this terror infrastructure.
Whether he stood strong against Israel or not, he also stood strong against Egypt.
14
Huh? What does AIPAC have to do with this? Or Israel? It must take remarkable hatred to blame AIPAC for the decades-long conflict between the Muslim Brotherhood and the Egyptian establishment.
1
He is being convicted for mayhem and murder, a specialty of the Muslim Brotherhood. He has further pending court cases for releasing thousands of prisoners, many of whom are now carrying out terrorist activities in Sinai. He is also accused of passing state documents to the principal supporter and financier of the MB, Qatar.
The only neighboring country not trying to oppress Egypt at the moment is Israel!
As for being popularly elected, are you aware of how the MB bribe their main supporters, the illiterates, comprising of 40% of the population? Did you know that the MB harassed Christians so much that only 7% of them were able to vote?
Perhaps you should visit Egypt and speak to a few people there! You will find a new air of optimism, an improving economy and relief that the MB are sidelined. One example is the construction of the second Suez Canal. The cost of this ($8.4 billion) was financed by public subscription, limited to Egyptian individuals and corporations only, and was fully subscribed within 11 days!
One of Morsi's most pernicious acts, in my opinion, was when he replaced 18 regional governors with MB members. The person he appointed as governor of Luxor was Adel el-Khayat, one of those involved in the attack against tourists in Luxor in 1997 which killed 62 people. The residents of Luxor were outraged and they blocked access to his office and he had to resign a few days later.
Morsi is not the faultless victim that so many in the West portray him.
The only neighboring country not trying to oppress Egypt at the moment is Israel!
As for being popularly elected, are you aware of how the MB bribe their main supporters, the illiterates, comprising of 40% of the population? Did you know that the MB harassed Christians so much that only 7% of them were able to vote?
Perhaps you should visit Egypt and speak to a few people there! You will find a new air of optimism, an improving economy and relief that the MB are sidelined. One example is the construction of the second Suez Canal. The cost of this ($8.4 billion) was financed by public subscription, limited to Egyptian individuals and corporations only, and was fully subscribed within 11 days!
One of Morsi's most pernicious acts, in my opinion, was when he replaced 18 regional governors with MB members. The person he appointed as governor of Luxor was Adel el-Khayat, one of those involved in the attack against tourists in Luxor in 1997 which killed 62 people. The residents of Luxor were outraged and they blocked access to his office and he had to resign a few days later.
Morsi is not the faultless victim that so many in the West portray him.
1