It's hilarious to read all these snarky comments from people complaining about the first year salaries of attorneys in Biglaw. I'd love to perform an experiment (which I'm sure most people would sign up for at first): for one year, I'll expect you to work 60, 70 and 80 hour weeks, weekdays and weekends, on a completely unpredictable schedule--will you miss Thanksgiving this year? perhaps your child's birthday? who knows, you can't predict it until 24 hours beforehand, if that--at all hours of the day (Tuesday you'll work 9 am - 6 pm; Wednesday, you'll come in, do nothing until 4 p.m., but then work until 2 a.m.; Saturday, you'll come back from coffee planning to visit a friend and instead work from 10 a.m. to 10 p.m.). We'll see how many of them survive twelve months of this, let alone years and years.
First years are being paid for their on-demand availability and their ability to work constantly and at all hours. There are very few jobs in the world that combine the sort of hours intensity and complete lack of predictability and complete subservience to your "bosses" that you experience as a first year associate at a large law firm. So consider this context before carping in the comments about what people are being paid.
First years are being paid for their on-demand availability and their ability to work constantly and at all hours. There are very few jobs in the world that combine the sort of hours intensity and complete lack of predictability and complete subservience to your "bosses" that you experience as a first year associate at a large law firm. So consider this context before carping in the comments about what people are being paid.
112
This article is devastatingly unrealistic. I graduated from law school 5 years ago with a distinction in my concentration and I only make half of the $135,000 median first-year salary listed here, and I make more than most of my law school friends! Giving prospective students this false representation of what their futures will be encourages them to take out massive loans (mine are currently creeping upwards of $230,000 with an interest rate double of that which I could get on a house right now).
Perhaps this survey is only speaking with the top firms in each city who only hire one or two associates a year? Or maybe they are not taking into account the vast number of graduates who cannot find a legitimate attorney position their first year?
I loved law school and would not discourage others from going if it is their passion, but it is articles like this that create negative stereotypes about our field.
Perhaps this survey is only speaking with the top firms in each city who only hire one or two associates a year? Or maybe they are not taking into account the vast number of graduates who cannot find a legitimate attorney position their first year?
I loved law school and would not discourage others from going if it is their passion, but it is articles like this that create negative stereotypes about our field.
80
The real story here is the tremendous debt that law students end up with to fund this whole charade. Law school is difficult and competitive and a law degree from anywhere other a top tier school isn't very valuable frankly (from an investment standpoint). And even if you do go to that top tier school, perform well, get a top job, it's not a gravy train. You're earning $160,000 in the best scenario (which is nothing to complain about, I want to be very clear) but servicing $100-250K of debt and living in an expensive city (with high taxes!). It's not a horrible or unmanageable life, but it's hard to save, and its not as easy and wonderful as it sounds like it should be.
I'm not sure law students really understand that it's not a great return on their time and investment in the long run. Even if you truly think you LOVE the law and you're going to love being a lawyer (most law students are wrong about this!), then you should only go to law school if you (1) get into a top 30 or so and (2) you don't have to pay full price. No exceptions. Again, no exceptions. And once more, there are NO exceptions. Otherwise, go work in consulting, or banking, or anything else that does not require you to take on six figures of debt for a job you're probably not going to love THAT much.
I'm not sure law students really understand that it's not a great return on their time and investment in the long run. Even if you truly think you LOVE the law and you're going to love being a lawyer (most law students are wrong about this!), then you should only go to law school if you (1) get into a top 30 or so and (2) you don't have to pay full price. No exceptions. Again, no exceptions. And once more, there are NO exceptions. Otherwise, go work in consulting, or banking, or anything else that does not require you to take on six figures of debt for a job you're probably not going to love THAT much.
40
Not to question your credibility but how can you reliably make such a conclusive statement as "no exceptions"? Just to give you one example of an "exception," look at students who attend a public interest oriented public law school, and graduate as public interest attorneys. They may have average salaries, but little debt. Other students may have their own unique stories and aspirations. Almost every rule has an exception.
19
I think the article also fails to take into account that “160,000” (which is debatable) is the starting salary that a firm pays a new hire. A new hire doesn’t necessarily mean a fresh law school graduate. Larger firms do hire a handful of newly graduated students who interned for them but the majority of these new hires either (1) clerked for a judge making 35-40k or (2) worked at a small/mid-size firm making between 30-60k. I will say that I worked for a large law firm in the tri-state area and my starting salary was 115k. I obtained this job after clerking making 40k straight out of law school. I am no longer practicing law for the reasons mentioned in depth by previous commenters (i.e. having no life, ruining all personal relationships and essentially becoming a high priced slave for a few years). I also want to comment only a vast minority of law school graduates earn a six figure salary. From my graduating class of 200 students only five of us were hired by “large firms” and made more than the average 50k my peers made and are still making.
26
Respectfully, these large law firms that pay $160,000 only take first years straight out of law school who worked as summer associates. This is also true of their clerks, who were usually also summer associates who then took a year to clerk after graduating. It would be virtually impossible to start a smaller law firm and lateral in to a larger firm as a junior associate, unless you know someone or are truly exceptional.
I do agree with you that $160,000 is not the reality for most lawyers, and that unless you finish your first year of law school with very strong grades and land a summer associate position at a large firm for your 2L year, it's difficult to come out of law school and earn $160,000 (or a $100,000 for that matter).
I do agree with you that $160,000 is not the reality for most lawyers, and that unless you finish your first year of law school with very strong grades and land a summer associate position at a large firm for your 2L year, it's difficult to come out of law school and earn $160,000 (or a $100,000 for that matter).
26
NALP is a bit of a joke and reflective of a bygone era prior to the rise of the internet. It's likely only large and elite firms register (pay) to be on the NALP listings, which is why the numbers are skewed so high.
I'm a first year lawyer in Canada and I can assure you that none of my friends at the big firms here are making $160K/year. That said, no one I know is graduating with $280K in debt either. Maybe this is why some states are doing away with the law school requirement for apprenticeships with lawyers, in order to avoid saddling aspiring lawyers with debts that can only be satiated by working for the big firms, rather than providing legal services to the public.
I'm a first year lawyer in Canada and I can assure you that none of my friends at the big firms here are making $160K/year. That said, no one I know is graduating with $280K in debt either. Maybe this is why some states are doing away with the law school requirement for apprenticeships with lawyers, in order to avoid saddling aspiring lawyers with debts that can only be satiated by working for the big firms, rather than providing legal services to the public.
16
According to the American Bar Association, a whopping 57% of graduates from the class of 2013 were employed in full-time jobs requiring bar passage within 9 months of graduation. Of that 57% more than half made between 40 and 65k (See the NALP bimodal graph and article) Average private school tuition was $41,985/yr. Average public school tuition (in-state) was $23,879. (see Law School Transparency website).
I think this adds some useful context. You are vastly more likely to fail to get a legal job coming out of law school than you are to make 160k.
I think this adds some useful context. You are vastly more likely to fail to get a legal job coming out of law school than you are to make 160k.
23
I am puzzled by people's reactions to this article, both in the comments and in my facebook feed. It seems to me that the author is very clear as to what she's talking about. She never says or implies that this is a standard salary across all law firms, or in all parts of the country. She says the salary is the "top of the market" and 39% of the largest firms in the country paid it. What is confusing or objectionable or misleading?
16
I think perhaps what people are objecting to is the headline, which indeed does make it sound like $160K is the starting salary for newly minted lawyers. Of course, the writer likely had no control over the title of her piece. What would have been good to include is the bimodal distribution of the salary structure in law - some (fewer than in the past) start out with high salaries at big law but it's not like slightly less good graduates or those from good 2nd tier school grads start a bit lower; rather the drop is precipitous. The problem is that too many people go to law school thinking that while they might not start at $160K, they will start at $100 or $120K and take out huge loans rather than realizing that if they don't grab the brass ring, their starting pay is going to be way, way lower. And, it is only the very top law school that have the entry to the summer associate positions that lead to these highly paid jobs; it's hard (not impossible) for even the brightest student in a 2nd or 3rd tier law school to start out like this. Let's not lump all places into something called law school, it's misleading and disingenuous. For these top jobs, the places that matter are Yale, Harvard, Stanford, Columbia, Penn and a handful of others. All these commenters saying 'I went to law school and my classmates and I aren't making anywhere near $160K.' probably didn't attend those.
19
I am a law student, and we are all well-aware of some of the absurd results of the legal/political system. But I would say one thing to some of the people who seem to have particular animus for lawyers: don't blame lawyers for the existence of the law. Laws are complicated and prone to evasion, and we can always strive for clearer, fairer laws, but there will always be a necessity to further define them, which is where lawyers come in. That's just the nature of the beast.
5
The article should really be titled, Welcome to Your First Year as a Lawyer. Your Salary Is $160,000 and You Will Have No Life For The Next 5 - 7 Years.
I also think the article is a little skewed, this salary is for those in the top of their class from the top law schools.
I also think the article is a little skewed, this salary is for those in the top of their class from the top law schools.
14
How could a just and benevolent God allow such a thing to occur!
160,000.00 dollars for a law school graduate. Why physicians in residency make at least a eight as much. How can this be in a nation such as America!
160,000.00 dollars for a law school graduate. Why physicians in residency make at least a eight as much. How can this be in a nation such as America!
2
There is a demand for their services. That is why they are paid what they are paid.
7
Because physicians, for all the good they do do, don't help resolve problems between companies carrying billions of dollars of collected shareholder value. Hope that helps clear up your confusion.
18
This article bothers me. I think it really misplaces the true salary levels of the vast majority of first year lawyers. As a first year lawyer in a major city I'm not making anywhere near $160,000. Or even as they say, "Over all, the national median first-year salary at firms of any size was $135,000." I work for a smaller firm and I'm not even close to $135,000. I think maybe 5 people in my entire graduating class are making close to that amount. The vast majority are making under 100k in their first year out of law school. This survey seems heavily skewed to the large firms. I'd have to wonder how many first year lawyers as a portion of recent graduates even work for big law firms of the size they are discussing.
35
A very misleading article. A much better and telling article would have compared median starting salaries of ALL first year lawyers in 2007 with ALL first year lawyers in 2015. Further, compare salaries in the public and private sectors. Still further, the number of first year lawyers without jobs but nonetheless saddled with huge student loan debt because they bought into articles like this.
1
Nothing to feel sorry about for these newly minted attorneys, whether they have starting slaries of $50 K or $160 K. This is a life choice -- all of us make those every day. Most Americans would be so overwhelmingly happy to have such starting salaries, I'm not sure why this was considered newsworthy.
For all of those complaining about how these salaries compare to biologists, computer programmers, teachers, and any other profession that (admittedly) does more good for society than lawyers, note that this starting salary is confined to a tiny portion of the 40,000 or so law school graduates each year - I would generously say a max of 3%. Outside of that group, the options range from "never finding a job as a lawyer" to, optimistically, $60K or so starting out at a small but respectable firm. Moreover, in contrast to most professions, it is normal for such associates to wash out in 3-4 years and then take lower-paying positions outside of "BigLaw," such that they have essentially reached max earnings potential in the first few years of their career. Oh, and the job itself usually sucks. Oh, and it costs a quarter million (borrowed at 6-8% interest) to go to law school these days.
So no, trust me, if you chose something you actually enjoy, with minimal educational debt, and are making high five figures, you did not make a bad life decision.
So no, trust me, if you chose something you actually enjoy, with minimal educational debt, and are making high five figures, you did not make a bad life decision.
10
As some other people have mentioned barely 1.5% of graduates land the kind of job that pays $160k per year. Also not that the "median" is simple the middle salary, or halfway in between the top and bottom. So, if the median is $135k, this tells us absolutely nothing without knowing what the single highest paid associate makes. This article is as misleading as it is doing a disservice to the vast majority of lawyers who work very hard for their clients and don't come close to $160k.
The vast majority of attorneys have trouble finding work at all, and many of them are forced to work for free or take jobs that are far less than six figures, even in NYC.
The message to people considering a career in law should be don't do it unless you have a passion for it, because you are more likely to make a decent living with a computer science, engineer, nursing, or other degree.
To the vast majority of people considering this profession, I would say emphatically, do something else. Law schools inflate their employment statistics, and you may think you are smart and will graduate in the top of your class, but there are lots of other smart people just like you.
The vast majority of attorneys have trouble finding work at all, and many of them are forced to work for free or take jobs that are far less than six figures, even in NYC.
The message to people considering a career in law should be don't do it unless you have a passion for it, because you are more likely to make a decent living with a computer science, engineer, nursing, or other degree.
To the vast majority of people considering this profession, I would say emphatically, do something else. Law schools inflate their employment statistics, and you may think you are smart and will graduate in the top of your class, but there are lots of other smart people just like you.
4
Lawyers are parasites that for the most part add zero productivity to the economy, and cost businesses and consumers billions of dollars every year, with their opportunistIc lawsuits. Shakespeare had it right, when he said that the first thing we should do is kill all the lawyers!
2
Clearly the Chinese government thinks the same as you, because while it permits a nominal legal profession, it routinely criminally prosecutes attorneys who it considered excessively diligent in their client's defense. Therefore if you wish to look to a country which is relatively free of the tyranny of lawyers take a look at China and see if that's the type of society the U.S. should be modelling itself on.
9
These lawyers are overpaid which has resulted in large law firms going out of business (See. e.g. Dewey & LeBoeuf, Finley Kumble, Coudert Brothers etc - http://www.businessinsider.com/the-eight-most-spectacular-law-firm-colla... .
There is a glut of good honest attorneys and a bigger glut of law graduates who are willing to work hard.
These newly minted lawyers are paid a salary equivalent to a New York State Supreme Court Justice who earns about $167,000 per year and must be admitted for at least 10 years. http://a856-gbol.nyc.gov/gbolwebsite/265.html.
A Federal District Court judge only earns $201,100 per year. And, in 2007, earned $165,200. The same as the first year law graduate whose income - gasp - has not increased. http://www.uscourts.gov/JudgesAndJudgeships/JudicialCompensation/judicia....
There is a glut of good honest attorneys and a bigger glut of law graduates who are willing to work hard.
These newly minted lawyers are paid a salary equivalent to a New York State Supreme Court Justice who earns about $167,000 per year and must be admitted for at least 10 years. http://a856-gbol.nyc.gov/gbolwebsite/265.html.
A Federal District Court judge only earns $201,100 per year. And, in 2007, earned $165,200. The same as the first year law graduate whose income - gasp - has not increased. http://www.uscourts.gov/JudgesAndJudgeships/JudicialCompensation/judicia....
4
This is irresponsible journalism. It does not accurately reflect the legal market, and sends false hopes to people considering a legal education. The reality for most law school grads is that they'll probably spend their firs year working at Starbucks. And, after they pass the bar and get admitted, they'll be lucky to get contract work doing document review for an hourly salary. The job market is awful and people are desperate for jobs to pay off their $200k in loans. Please get the facts before publishing your stories. Again, this is irresponsible.
11
One of the other realities for the fortunate few who obtain a $160,000/year job at a large law firm is that 85% of them will be fired within eight years (or politely told that "chances for advancement are remote" and they should leave within a year), in most cases not because they aren't competent to do the work but because their employers don't wish to admit more than a few people a year to the partnership.
30
This article infuriates me. The percentage of law school grads who: (a) go to a top school like Harvard and then can (b) secure those high paying jobs is not actually the majority of law school grads. I went to a decent law school in NYC and made $30,000 at my first job as a lawyer in 2003. I was never going to get a top firm job coming out of my school and with an average class ranking. I did not want even want one of those jobs, that's not why I went to law school. I worked for a solo practitioner working in employment discrimination. I then went on to work for the government practicing special education law and 11 years into my career, I still haven't cracked $100K. I love my job and love working as a public servant, but it does not pay for the loans I incurred. I declared bankruptcy this year because I can't pay my other bills (including my two childrens' daycare costs) due to the hefty amount of student loans I carry. That should be your story. I know more lawyers in my situation than in the situation you are portraying in this article.
16
I do feel sorry for those truly good, altruistic souls who enter the legal profession and then take a pummeling from just about everyone.
Lawyers and law enforcement professionals have much in common. They are the subject of on-going ridicule until they are desperately needed, and then their value skyrockets. If only those who actually put their lives on the line were compensated half as well as those who purport to uphold the law in a courtroom.
Lawyers and law enforcement professionals have much in common. They are the subject of on-going ridicule until they are desperately needed, and then their value skyrockets. If only those who actually put their lives on the line were compensated half as well as those who purport to uphold the law in a courtroom.
2
this article is incredibly misleading. I am a second year attorney - graduated in 2012 and was admitted to the NYS bar in 2013. I didn't go to Harvard or an Ivy League school. I still studied hard and earned decent grades. However, the job market outside of the Big Law firms is extremely competitive. I earn $50,000 a year before taxes. This barely covers all of my expenses and makes it incredibly difficult to save. I am one of the lucky ones that doesn't have loans. But working 60 hours a week for less than half of Big Law salary isn't easy. The New York Times should do an article on the struggles of lawyers who don't have cushy big law jobs or company 401k matches who work just as hard
21
What a terrible and misleading headline and article. My theory is that many newspaper writers are 1) jilted that they didn't go to law school or 2) has a parent that routinely suggests law school as alternative to writing news articles. Why else would the coverage be so bad?
First, though the headline trumpets the 160k starting salary, the article later notes that fewer graduates receive this level of compensation compared to 10 years ago. This analysis also neglects to account for inflation, which would put 2007's 160k at today's 180k. So clearly, compensation is down.
The second most glaring omission is the percentage of graduating law students who receive that level of compensation -- very few. Unless one graduates a Top 14 law school (so less than 5,000 people) and moves to big city market (so a fraction of the above mentioned 5,000 people), there is no way to make that kind of money. With over 40,000 law graduates a year, this type of compensation is the exception rather than the norm.
Third, the article neglects student debt. When combined with undergraduate debt, it is not uncommon for student loans to reach a quarter of a million dollars. So even for the lucky few that make gobs of money, loan the size of house weighs over their heads (and a loan that isn't foreclosable or dischargable in bankruptcy). A annual income to debt ratio would be more accurate.
Finally, the article neglects hours work. To achieve this type of salary, one must work 80 hrs per week.
First, though the headline trumpets the 160k starting salary, the article later notes that fewer graduates receive this level of compensation compared to 10 years ago. This analysis also neglects to account for inflation, which would put 2007's 160k at today's 180k. So clearly, compensation is down.
The second most glaring omission is the percentage of graduating law students who receive that level of compensation -- very few. Unless one graduates a Top 14 law school (so less than 5,000 people) and moves to big city market (so a fraction of the above mentioned 5,000 people), there is no way to make that kind of money. With over 40,000 law graduates a year, this type of compensation is the exception rather than the norm.
Third, the article neglects student debt. When combined with undergraduate debt, it is not uncommon for student loans to reach a quarter of a million dollars. So even for the lucky few that make gobs of money, loan the size of house weighs over their heads (and a loan that isn't foreclosable or dischargable in bankruptcy). A annual income to debt ratio would be more accurate.
Finally, the article neglects hours work. To achieve this type of salary, one must work 80 hrs per week.
17
April 16th...more like April 1st! The sad truth is that only 1/3 of graduates actually end up with jobs that require and actual license to practice law! Because of the huge supply and very little demand, first year grads are looking at jobs that pay 30K -40K and giving their blood sweat and many tears for it! It's these type of misleading articles that are increasing enrollment! Shame on the NY Times and shame on the schools! Here is my 2 cents...unless you will graduate in the top 2% of your class...pick another career path!
5
This high salary is not the norm. If you come from top tier law school then yes, you will go white shoe firm with that salary range. But the other tiers do not make close to that. In fact many recent grads continue to face high unemployment due to the large numbers of lawyers out there. Additionally partners are not retiring fast enough to keep employment numbers stable.
There are more lawyers out there making peanuts if they can work and law schools continue to skew the stats. Yes recent grads are employed but they are making low hourly wages at Target, your local food court or other retail outlet. If they are lucky they might get on a doc review project but those pay $32 an hour flat.
It is articles like this that do not show the reality. Had I known this, I might not have gone to law school.
There are more lawyers out there making peanuts if they can work and law schools continue to skew the stats. Yes recent grads are employed but they are making low hourly wages at Target, your local food court or other retail outlet. If they are lucky they might get on a doc review project but those pay $32 an hour flat.
It is articles like this that do not show the reality. Had I known this, I might not have gone to law school.
19
WHAT? I graduated from law school in Seattle 3 years ago and I don't know anyone from my graduating class who makes $160K/year, in a firm, in house, anywhere. Where are they getting these numbers? I'd be willing to bet that most people in my graduating class make less than 1/2 of $160K/year.
5
Makes that's because you're in Seattle.
8
That's because you live in Seattle. This is completely normal for large, top firms in Boston, Chicago, Los Angeles, Washington and especially New York. Places where the cost of living is higher and there is a heavy concentration of government or financial services work for large firms.
10
It's not because Nope lives in Seattle, it's because he or she went to school in Seattle rather than in New Haven, Cambridge, Palo Alto, the upper west side of NYC, E 60th St. in Chicago or West Philly. These high paid jobs and salaries primarily go to the grad of the very top schools. It's ridiculous to implicitly lump all law schools together as articles like this one do. It's misleading to prospective students and their families who run up debt thinking that any law school is the ticket to the 1% or even the 5%.
20
Yes, my heart is bleeding as well for lawyers with that starting salary or even ones a bit lower. Try being my friend with an accounting job, years of experience, exempt from overtime, working 60-80 weeks for years at $45K, with no salary raises an annual benefit cuts. Her solution before her health was severely impacted, was to change jobs, take a big salary hit and work her way back up to that salary.
7
What a totally misleading article. No wonder, comments from people not in this profession or in the profession decades ago, evidence a total lack of understanding about associate positions in Big Law at a New York firm. Few graduating law students secure a Big Law position. The vast majority of graduates, even at highly regarded and ranked schools, do not obtain a Big Law job. Of course those students still incur the costs of attending law school, which can exceed $120,000, as well as the opportunity costs of not working during those three years. These individuals may not find legal work at all, and often earn far less than $100,000 after four years of college and three of law school, which makes for a very modest return on that educational investment.
As for those that do reach Big Law what do they do to earn this compensation? Work seven days per week, including major holiday weekends, such as Memorial Day, July 4, and Christmas, with long hours. Leaving the office at 2:00 a.m., and getting an e-mail asking for more research at 2:30 a.m. isn't extraordinary. Nor is document review for 16 hours per day for months on end. Oh, and don't miss a key document among the 2,000,000 pages of documents you're reviewing. And of those that accept Big Law positions, many are out in three years, and earning substantially less.
As for those that do reach Big Law what do they do to earn this compensation? Work seven days per week, including major holiday weekends, such as Memorial Day, July 4, and Christmas, with long hours. Leaving the office at 2:00 a.m., and getting an e-mail asking for more research at 2:30 a.m. isn't extraordinary. Nor is document review for 16 hours per day for months on end. Oh, and don't miss a key document among the 2,000,000 pages of documents you're reviewing. And of those that accept Big Law positions, many are out in three years, and earning substantially less.
29
Thanks for writing this. It's so tiring to hear the typical bitter class resentment from a bunch of people who have no idea what it's actually like to work within a large law firm. They're so quick to kvetch about the salaries -- like I said in another comment, I'd invite them to join the ranks at 2 a.m. on the 20th hour of work on a Saturday as they've missed their child's first birthday party. Talk is cheap.
17
No wonder their billing practices need to be scrutinized more than ever. What makes a good lawyer at top firms is billing hours- not outcome.
5
We don't need the number of lawyers graduating from law school today, the statistics about job placements and who stays in the field back this up. You should only pursue law if you are deeply interested and devoted to the field. If not, there are plenty of other professions that are rewarding, interesting and will provide a good living.
4
There are other ways to go. Decades ago I got a Master's degree in economics at a Big Ten school. I left school with no student loan debt and spent over thirty years as a corporate economist. When I retired I was getting about $150,000 a year if you include bonuses. Not bad at all. I was working about 38 hours a week for that level of compensation. You do not need to be a lawyer to live well and have a career.
8
Yes, but I bet you were good at math.
6
I wonder who generates more value for society, and for humanity as a whole: a scientist, an engineer, a medical researcher, a biologist or a lawyer?
I guess the lawyer would rank way at the bottom of the list of "usefulness" in the grand scheme of things. Yet the lawyer as a professional figure is rewarded far more than almost any other category. Draw your own conclusions.
I guess the lawyer would rank way at the bottom of the list of "usefulness" in the grand scheme of things. Yet the lawyer as a professional figure is rewarded far more than almost any other category. Draw your own conclusions.
5
Let's add in Wall Street CEO's and I believe they would rank even lower than lawyers (and yet make more money in most cases.) Something rotten indeed.
3
Everyone calling first-year associates whiners obviously have no idea what it is like to be a biglaw associate in a large market. Biglaw associates, especially the most junior ones, normally work 12-hour days. Assuming they don't work weekends and holidays (and many of them do), that translates to 3,000 hours a year. $53/hour in an expensive city is not really that much, especially considering the level of education required (top of the class in a top 14 law school) and the repercussions they face if they mess up.
The 3,000-hour estimate also assumes every working day is an average day. It doesn't take into account the fact that biglaw associates are expected to be available 24/7/365, in case something comes up.
Plus, taking into account the amount of debt many of them take on to attend a T14 school, almost nothing will be left. It's not an enviable position at all.
The lure of working as biglaw associate is the chance to be a biglaw partner or starting their own firm, which many of them will probably not get to do.
The 3,000-hour estimate also assumes every working day is an average day. It doesn't take into account the fact that biglaw associates are expected to be available 24/7/365, in case something comes up.
Plus, taking into account the amount of debt many of them take on to attend a T14 school, almost nothing will be left. It's not an enviable position at all.
The lure of working as biglaw associate is the chance to be a biglaw partner or starting their own firm, which many of them will probably not get to do.
23
$53 an hour is not much???!! You are showing a typical arrogant lawyer mentality. And you lawyers do nothing but add to the cost of doing business, paid for by consumers.
The majority of law school grads don't come anywhere near this salary a year out of law school. Tough labor market for new law school grads these days.
22
Ok, such a miss leading title i had to comment. If I am correct there will be approximately 46,000 new lawyers who graduate and pass the bar exams this year. The number who earn $160K upon graduation is less than 1.5%. In fact, the number who are unemployed as of June 2014 is approximately 10.5%; much higher than the overall unemployment rate.
Im not saying law school is a bad idea ora bad investment. However, salary in the short term or long term should not be driving any final decision. As a trial lawyer who works as a sole practitioner you have to be committed to work, work, and more work. Effort, effort, and more effort. It is no different than any other profession or job if you want to excel and be successful. Remember, the harder you work the luckier you become!
Im not saying law school is a bad idea ora bad investment. However, salary in the short term or long term should not be driving any final decision. As a trial lawyer who works as a sole practitioner you have to be committed to work, work, and more work. Effort, effort, and more effort. It is no different than any other profession or job if you want to excel and be successful. Remember, the harder you work the luckier you become!
12
Everything is relative. Legal fees for the top tier law firms have soared over the past ten years as a combination of increasing transaction demand, large commercial litigation and extensive government regulation and investigations and enforcement actions, at Federal, state and local levels, has exploded. The need to deliver extensive knowledge and human resources to clients forces law firms to complete for the best, brightest and most motivated from law schools. Many of these same candidates choose law over equally or even more lucrative opportunities, such as investment banking and private equity. This has pushed starting salaries for a select group upwards, and many of the new associates will work nearly 80 hours, seven days a week, effectively doing the work of two people in other jobs. Many of these young lawyers are servicing large student loans and living in the most expensive urban environments, such as New York, Washington D.C., Boston, Los Angeles, Chicago and San Francisco. The salaries are simply a result of a narrow band of factors affecting supply and demand. It is a mistake to view them from the perspective of other industries or as evidence of some great social injustice.
6
You missed the point of the article.
WHAT is the point of the article? That big law associates and those who seek those positions are SO self absorbed and blind to their privilege that they somehow should believe they are being cheated by being paid $160,000 which is an INSANE AMOUNT OF MONEY?
I paid for law school too. I work in Plaintiff's law. I make $48,000. This article is garbage.
I paid for law school too. I work in Plaintiff's law. I make $48,000. This article is garbage.
1
The starting salaries are "stuck" at $160,000? For new law school grads who don't yet know what they're doing? And who Big Law firms freely throw onto cases while running up a big bill? The tragic dimensions of this story are limited.
14
Salaries have not risen, but cost of living has and tuition has outstripped inflation every year, and the hours have not gotten better. So I think "stuck" is ok here.
1
This is a headline? My husband is a physicist working in research and teaching at one of the best universities in the country. His work is in space flight programs. After 20 years he doesn't make this much. Give me a break!
26
Very misleading. Maybe 2% of law school graduates will get a job paying $160,000. The title of the article makes it sound like all lawyers will get that (or at least $100,000). The vast majority will get paid less than $70k, and many less than $50k. The article should say that- the writer should have done more research rather than just regurgitating these empty stats. This article will serve to lead more misinformed kids to take on huge debt at law school, because they think they will get paid $160k when they finish. Instead they will be saddled with $150k-$250k of student loans for 30 years. NYTimes needs to stop believing the lies than more education means better economic future- There is definitely such a thing as too much education these days- because grad school is way too expensive- especially law school.
87
I just want to say how completely spot on you are having lived the exact situation you're talking about. There is no guaranteed $160k salary upon graduation, in fact generally quite the opposite. What is more often guaranteed is the massive horrible debt you mention. This article should be taken down before it misinforms more sends more students, leading them to make huge life-altering decisions based on that info.
7
Beyond that, for those of us who did go into public service after law school, despite having the same (or in some cases more) loans than those who went to big firms... to suggest that our classmates who went to big law have something to complain about because they are *only* making 3-4 times what we are is *incredibly* offensive and narrow-minded, and belittling.
3
I work in manufacturing, but I would somewhat sympathetically point out that "the biggest legal markets" are also the most expensive. Add student debt and, no, I don't envy those first years lucky enough to get the better spots. I pity the less fortunate.
6
If you are making $160k a year, remember this their first year salary, the debt is serviceable. Depending on the approach to paying off debt a new lawyer making that salary could wipe out the loans within 5 years.
1
That really sucks. One of my dad's best friends once we moved to L.A. was Charley Lloyd, law partner of Tom Bradley. Back then I'd wanted to be a lawyer, and my dad introduced me (at 15) to Charley and I got to tour his office and ask him about what it took to be a lawyer. He said if I made it through law school I could come back and work in his office.
So what do I do? I stick with computers. Long story short? Most I ever made was $85K, now I make nothing and am treated as if I am Methuselah by most in the industry and to make matters worse, am being told about how many jobs I haven't gotten because I didn't already have a job. If I'd gone the attorney way I'd be a millionaire right now.
So what do I do? I stick with computers. Long story short? Most I ever made was $85K, now I make nothing and am treated as if I am Methuselah by most in the industry and to make matters worse, am being told about how many jobs I haven't gotten because I didn't already have a job. If I'd gone the attorney way I'd be a millionaire right now.
4
It's important to "unpack" the $160,000 starting salary.
First, only perhaps 10% of students at most schools will ever be offered one of these jobs (higher at some elite schools). That's why the starting salary has not increased - the big firms hold all of the cards in terms of supply and demand and basically dictate terms to the new associates. (For the remaining 90% of law graduates ignored by this article, a majority of them can expect unemployment upon graduation or a job with a starting salary of around $40,000, with no wage and hour protections in most states).
Second, importantly, is that this is an 80 hour a week job, if not more. Just doing some rough math, these associates are earning perhaps $40 dollars per hour. That's nothing to sniff at, certainly, but less and less relative to the $15 dollar per hour minimum wage which could be here 4 years down the road in some areas. It's perhaps on par with a machinist at Boeing, though of course, working just 40 hours per week.
Third, not ignored in this article, are the debt considerations involved in pursuing the degree in the first place. Someone making $160,000 is going to be on an aggressive repayment track, which will eat into discretionary income significantly, particularly in a high-priced urban area.
In summary, Big Firm Attorney is not a glamorous job, and the salary is not particularly impressive given what you are expected to give up to do the job.
First, only perhaps 10% of students at most schools will ever be offered one of these jobs (higher at some elite schools). That's why the starting salary has not increased - the big firms hold all of the cards in terms of supply and demand and basically dictate terms to the new associates. (For the remaining 90% of law graduates ignored by this article, a majority of them can expect unemployment upon graduation or a job with a starting salary of around $40,000, with no wage and hour protections in most states).
Second, importantly, is that this is an 80 hour a week job, if not more. Just doing some rough math, these associates are earning perhaps $40 dollars per hour. That's nothing to sniff at, certainly, but less and less relative to the $15 dollar per hour minimum wage which could be here 4 years down the road in some areas. It's perhaps on par with a machinist at Boeing, though of course, working just 40 hours per week.
Third, not ignored in this article, are the debt considerations involved in pursuing the degree in the first place. Someone making $160,000 is going to be on an aggressive repayment track, which will eat into discretionary income significantly, particularly in a high-priced urban area.
In summary, Big Firm Attorney is not a glamorous job, and the salary is not particularly impressive given what you are expected to give up to do the job.
96
The article emphasizes several times that this is the top salary at a few top firms only.
3
THIS. Add in that due to the grueling schedule most don't make it past 3 or 4 years in Biglaw. By that time, even paying 3k per month in loans, the fool still has several years left to pay back the huge loan debt.
1
This article is without context. I go to a top law school in New York, and I will graduate with over $280,000 in debt. A $160,000 salary is the only way I can service that debt. Trust me I will be living modestly. And as soon as that debt is paid off, I will be looking for a career outside of a big law firm. This is what most young lawyers do nowadays.
65
You're lucky. I have the debt but I don't have the job.
4
Yup. I know no one will feel sorry for young biglaw lawyers in a world where so many lawyers are really struggling, but $160 with debt service is not really $160 at all, and this article totally misses that context. Especially given the fact that for high-earners student loan interest is not tax deductible (apparently subsidizing e.g. McMansions is a better use of tax breaks than subsidizing education) so all that payment comes from pre-tax money. In a relatively high tax bracket that's a 25% premium on the debt. It's also worth taking into account the structure of law firms means most people starting at $160 will be earning far less later on.
(That said it's not the only way to service your debt. I am certain that your school has a public interest loan repayment plan. No one who goes to NYU or Columbia will pay back the whole of their loans if they take a public interest job at $50k a year.)
(That said it's not the only way to service your debt. I am certain that your school has a public interest loan repayment plan. No one who goes to NYU or Columbia will pay back the whole of their loans if they take a public interest job at $50k a year.)
1
Oh, the suffering!
3
In 1968, Harvard astronomy PhD's and Harvard lawyers got the same starting salaries. Guess which group is doing better today!
20
Some context, such as "why this is bad for America," would have been helpful. How on earth did this get published, and why? Sadly, this reads like Ms. Olson regurgitated a press release, added some statistics, and took the afternoon off.
From talking with colleagues, peers, and friends, my sense is that annual salary increases haven't kept pace with cost-of-living since the start of the recession. Perhaps a story on something like erosion of the middle class would've been more appropriate if the Times wanted to talk about wage pain. Good grief.
From talking with colleagues, peers, and friends, my sense is that annual salary increases haven't kept pace with cost-of-living since the start of the recession. Perhaps a story on something like erosion of the middle class would've been more appropriate if the Times wanted to talk about wage pain. Good grief.
11
I think poster is right. Took the afternoon off. My first job as a lawyer was in a Fortune 100 company for $17,500 a year. And great lawyers charged $150-200 an hour at good firm. The fact that big NY firms went crazy in the late 1990's and started paying people with no experience or ability to do anything $160k and then billing clients $400 an hour for their learning experience destroyed the legal profession. Law schools picked up on the act and started charging absurd tuition justifying it on the great returns and starting salaries. Businesses started doing with less legal services and now law schools and big law firms are trying to figure out how to avoid totally blowing up a broken business model.
23
This article is a joke, right? People cannot be seriously complaining about such a salary?
4
going to law school is like taking out a mortgage on a nice house, except you dont get 3.5% rates. Taxation takes a big bite to start with. (almost 50% of US adults dont pay any federal tax, remember, including probably most of you who are offended by the high salary). Then you have to live in DC, NY or LA, not cheap, to even have one of these jobs; then you have to service the debt, and work 80 hours a week to do that. Not much left over. And while the "complainers" may seethe at the basic idea of someone working hard and doing well, they will learn to value that talent in spades if they ever get into a legal entanglement. you do get what you pay for when it comes to legal matters. thank goodness some people are willing to go through the challenges of lawyering at the elite levels.
4
Medical Students also graduate with student loans the size of mortgages at high interest rates, but they only make around $50,000 after graduating from 4 years of medical school. They have to live in the same high cost areas and work the same 80 hours a week. Most new grads don't know everything and need to get real world experience, they shouldn't expect such high pay with no real experience and knowledge.
3
And then shortly make way more than the lawyers this article describes.
Also, plenty of them don't live in those high cost areas. Every place needs doctors, unlike Big Law firms.
Also, plenty of them don't live in those high cost areas. Every place needs doctors, unlike Big Law firms.
1
Oh to be "stuck" with a salary of anything above $100K. The horror.
6
My heart bleeds for these poor lawyers. As a fifty-something with a PhD in the sciences and a job at a Fortune 100 company, I don't expect to hit that salary before I retire. Yes, I live in a less expensive city, but that's the sacrifice that I've had to make.
21
My starting salary as a lawyer in a legal services program in Indiana in 1971 was $10,500, and I participated in oral argument in the U.S. Supreme Court that year (and won). Though there has been significant inflation since then, it is hard to feel anything for these young lawyers earning a starting salary of $160,000 with virtually no experience and a need for constant supervision. Perhaps one day they will experience the real world.
43
I hope every can of soda you drink is already shaken up.
2
Am I supposed to feel sorry for late 20-somethings making an average of $135,000 a year? I will save my sympathy for public defenders, who defend the indigent rather than advance corporate interests, and have a median starting salary of $47,500 and for those working for minimum wage, whose purchasing power is 67% of what is was in 1968.
82
This article is garbage. Lawyer incomes are bimodal, some (read very few) make a lot, while others (the vast majority) do not. This is rah-rah cheerleading so law schools (where admissions are down across the board) can continue to bilk unsuspecting 20-somethings out of 100k plus.
3
I remember being told by the union business manager that laborers make more money than most lawyers ... Who would have thought... Ha!
15
The 2010=2013 law graduates are panicking as accrued interest increase their outstanding law school loans. Many are still looking for meaningful employment. Timing is everything. Good luck to this year's graduates.
3
The fact that a first year's starting salary of $160K has remained "flat" for six years is not particularly relevant to the issues facing lawyers and the legal profession today. 1st year associates were overpaid in 2009 (relative to their capabilities as lawyers and value to clients), and remain so today even after adjusting for inflation. Moreover, salary compression between 1st year and 8th year associates (at which point salary typically tops out) is truly absurd -- twenty 1st years working on a transaction would not even approach the value of a single qualified 7th or 8th year associate. Yet an 8th year associate receives barely twice the salary of a 1st year. Clients know this (as do partners). There will be debate for many years over what has led to the commoditization of legal services. And while each firm's leadership continues to debate how best to deliver value, clients have become quite savvy about choosing outside counsel. To read this article as something other than a symptom of the profession's decline would be to miss the writing on the wall.
19
TLDR: 50% of graduates are making less than 62K.