Might not have immediate practical effect but extremely valuable as official worldwide condemnation of so-called Islamic State's reprehensible practices. ICC may not be perfect, but it's a move in the right direction and a vast improvement over doing nothing or relying solely on military solutions to such problems.
After we kill the overwhelming majority of their leadership, we can think about prosecuting those that either decide to surrender or we capture after their organization is totally destroyed, just like the Nazi's after WWII. The International Court will never do what the Nurnberg trials did, sentence people to death. I am not a true adherent to capital punishment but if anyone ever deserved the death sentence it is those that lead ISIS and any of their followers who acted as executioners. Anyone who is sentenced to life in prison can also eventually get out of prison possibly. Or be used as bargaining chips in hostage incidents.
This group needs to be relentlessly pursued and when caught up with killed. And as for those like the two women in New York City who were contemplating an act of terrorism on the scale of Boston or worse, they too need to face the death penalty. They acted and purchased items for a bomb or bombs. What is the mental mindset of those who follow ISIS. They behead innocent people! Men, woman and children! All because of their beliefs. They burn alive people and do I am sure other atrocities that our government plays down. If you feel you are able to join such a group it speaks volumes about how you think and what kind of person you are. Inhuman comes to mind.
This group needs to be relentlessly pursued and when caught up with killed. And as for those like the two women in New York City who were contemplating an act of terrorism on the scale of Boston or worse, they too need to face the death penalty. They acted and purchased items for a bomb or bombs. What is the mental mindset of those who follow ISIS. They behead innocent people! Men, woman and children! All because of their beliefs. They burn alive people and do I am sure other atrocities that our government plays down. If you feel you are able to join such a group it speaks volumes about how you think and what kind of person you are. Inhuman comes to mind.
1
I think two things are happening here:
People in the region are rebelling against the artificial nations that were forced on them after WWII. This is a natural thing to want borders more in line with the realities on the ground.
A particularly virulent group of anarchists, in the form of ISIS, has taken hold. By their nature they may seize territory, but governance is beyond them. They will self implode.
It is the people of the region who must determine their fate, any attempt to impose alignments from the outside is doomed to failure. It will be messy, but we should pull back and let them sort it our themselves.
Our proper role is in the reconstruction that will come after the conflict is resolved by the parties, among themselves.
People in the region are rebelling against the artificial nations that were forced on them after WWII. This is a natural thing to want borders more in line with the realities on the ground.
A particularly virulent group of anarchists, in the form of ISIS, has taken hold. By their nature they may seize territory, but governance is beyond them. They will self implode.
It is the people of the region who must determine their fate, any attempt to impose alignments from the outside is doomed to failure. It will be messy, but we should pull back and let them sort it our themselves.
Our proper role is in the reconstruction that will come after the conflict is resolved by the parties, among themselves.
The ICC will not have credibility unless all states submit to it. That includes the USA. One shudders at the atrocities committed by ISIS, but equally one shudders at the atrocities perpetrated extra judicially by the USA. One is also aware that exposure of many of those atrocities are prevented by the USA. The rule of law either applies or it does not. You can't fool all the people all the time.
7
We are droning these guys to death at a fair clip, not good enough. What's needed here is a strongly worded letter from our lawyers.
2
If the U.N. charges a representative of ISIS, it will seek to arrest him. So the chief big wigs of ISIS, whom we are at war with, are not to be killed, but arrested. Many of the rest of the ISIS soldiers, including child recruits, will no doubt be killed. Arresting the worst guys while killing the child soldiers recruited by them is a very bad idea. Mr. Bellinger needs to rethink this one.
2
The problem is, the Islamic State clearly does not recognize Western criminal law or Christian morality. And the bigger problem is, neither do the United States or Israel recognize Western criminal law or Christian morality, especially when it comes to Muslims. Therefore we are stuck in an escalating cycle of terrorist violence on both sides, which only results in more terrorism. And until each side agrees to recognize basic principles of Western law and Christian morality, the escalating cycle of violence will continue, and both sides will simply talk past each other. According to Muslim law (as interpreted by the IS), beheading polytheists, apostates, and infidels who refuse to convert is righteous. According to the Old Testament (as per the Book of Joshua, as interpreted by far-right Zionists), slaughtering whole nations of polytheists apostates and infidels is also righteous. And according to the Obama administration, targeted assassinations, drone strikes, and bombing campaigns that kill innocent civilians and only spawn more terrorism are also righteous. Until all parties can be persuaded to accept the basic principles of Western law---that no criminal can be rightly punished or killed without trial---and Christian morality---that it is always wrong to respond to violence with more violence---the war on/of terror will go on. And it will just keep getting worse, as it has for 14 years now...,
And how would such a thing be accomplished?
As I understand, we are at war with them. In times of war, it is no time for prosecution, but for definitive defeat. Only once they are defeated can we prosecute the few in the tribe who are not psychopaths...
2
Mr. Bellinger, the UN Security Council's hands are cuffed as in the illustration by Beth Waldrond to your column "Make ISIS" Leaders Face Justice". President Bush and his cabal - Cheney, Rove, Rumsfeld, neo-con hawks - who initiated the two wars in Iraq and Afghanistan are equally to blame for the rise of the New Caliphate and its crimes against humanity. Who will bell the ISIS cat? Who will bell the Al-Assad cat for his genocide against his own people? Any appeals to the International Criminal Court will be futile and fruitless. The United Nations is a throwback to the League of Nations - and just as strong a power as that league was before World War II. First ISIS leaders have to be caught, then they can be investigated. War crimes have not yet been attributed to President Bush's two "walks in the park" and "slam dunks" in Iran and Afghanistan. And yet more thousands have been murdered in these wars than in the beheadings and massacres for which the New Caliphate is responsible. Islamic State offenses are horrific. But bringing the ISIS leaders to the Hague International Criminal Court will be as impossible as herding cats.
1
Why does the author couch his arguments with baloney about u.s. and Israeli exceptionalism. Why not investigate them all? What does israel have to hide?
1
What can the ICC do that national courts cannot? ISIS leaders are probably not keen on surrendering, but if captured, this is what would happen:
by Iraq - hanging
by Iranian forces - probably summary execution in the field
by Shiite militias - summary execution in the field
by Kurds - probably summary execution in the field
by Jordan - hanging
by Saudi Arabia - beheading
by Syria - really bad, fatal, things
by US forces - they wouldn't get the chance
by Israel - they wouldn't get the chance
I'm not seeing a scenario where an ISIS leader lives long enough to be tried by the ICC.
by Iraq - hanging
by Iranian forces - probably summary execution in the field
by Shiite militias - summary execution in the field
by Kurds - probably summary execution in the field
by Jordan - hanging
by Saudi Arabia - beheading
by Syria - really bad, fatal, things
by US forces - they wouldn't get the chance
by Israel - they wouldn't get the chance
I'm not seeing a scenario where an ISIS leader lives long enough to be tried by the ICC.
3
"It certainly makes more sense for the court’s prosecutor to investigate the Islamic State than to investigate the United States or Britain for treatment of detainees or Israel for its handling of last year’s Gaza conflict, as some activists have called for."
I don't agree. I think all of the above (plus Assad) should face charges of crimes against humanity and war crimes at The Hague. In other words, none should be above the law.
I don't agree. I think all of the above (plus Assad) should face charges of crimes against humanity and war crimes at The Hague. In other words, none should be above the law.
4
"It makes more sense to prosecute them (or at least their leaders) in the I.C.C. for international crimes than in the national courts of the United States or any other country."
No, it makes much more sense to kill them and drop their bodies into the sea.
No, it makes much more sense to kill them and drop their bodies into the sea.
2
Find them first.
Make 'W', Cheney, Rummy and Wolfowitz, et al ISIS' "founders" face justice.
"No justice, no peace!"
Slogan, author unknown.
Make 'W', Cheney, Rummy and Wolfowitz, et al ISIS' "founders" face justice.
"No justice, no peace!"
Slogan, author unknown.
1
honestly,
people that truly believe that "all scripture is inspired of god and beneficial"
show their faith in the way they deal with people who are yet to develop faith.
people of strong faith follow the example set by the apostle Paul who wrote that slaves of god don't need to fight but must be gentle towards all people.
now imagine saying that to people whose family members were murdered by Islamic terrorists.
would They accept it or reject it?
no one can be certain.
but what is guaranteed is that the god who sent Jesus to earth in our behalf,
will manifest his love by bringing back all of the people that have been unjustly murdered starting with Abel right down to David Haines and everyone else.
God acted on our behalf even before we were born and he proved that by means of his son Jesus.
of course none of Us saw Jesus but we can develop faith in him.
He is the solution to the Isis Problem and he is the solution to all wars and even death itself.
This is why people in the past were willing to give up everything in the name of Jesus
because they saw that he is the solution to all our problems.
this is also why Christians don't and should not fight against Isis with guns and bombs
but fight instead with their faith
knowing that no Isis member can overthrow the world in favor of their own Ideas.
When god is ready he will confront Isis head on and not one of them will remain standing.
but in the meantime Just respond with faith and love not guns and bombs.
people that truly believe that "all scripture is inspired of god and beneficial"
show their faith in the way they deal with people who are yet to develop faith.
people of strong faith follow the example set by the apostle Paul who wrote that slaves of god don't need to fight but must be gentle towards all people.
now imagine saying that to people whose family members were murdered by Islamic terrorists.
would They accept it or reject it?
no one can be certain.
but what is guaranteed is that the god who sent Jesus to earth in our behalf,
will manifest his love by bringing back all of the people that have been unjustly murdered starting with Abel right down to David Haines and everyone else.
God acted on our behalf even before we were born and he proved that by means of his son Jesus.
of course none of Us saw Jesus but we can develop faith in him.
He is the solution to the Isis Problem and he is the solution to all wars and even death itself.
This is why people in the past were willing to give up everything in the name of Jesus
because they saw that he is the solution to all our problems.
this is also why Christians don't and should not fight against Isis with guns and bombs
but fight instead with their faith
knowing that no Isis member can overthrow the world in favor of their own Ideas.
When god is ready he will confront Isis head on and not one of them will remain standing.
but in the meantime Just respond with faith and love not guns and bombs.
Make Israeli leaders face justice for their crimes against humanity in Israel, Gaza, West Bank, Golan Heights and East Jerusalem.
Make Boko Haram, al Shabbab, al Qaeda and Taliban leaders face justice for their crimes against humanity.
Make Sunni Muslim Arab leaders face justice for their crimes against humanity.
Make American, European, Russian and Chinese leaders pay for their crimes against humanity.
How many Nigerians must Boko Haram kill before there is any European and American outrage?
How many Somalis and Kenyans must Al Shabbab kill before there is any American and European outrage?
Are Christians and Muslims and Black Africans created equal as human being brothers and sister persons? Or not?
Make Boko Haram, al Shabbab, al Qaeda and Taliban leaders face justice for their crimes against humanity.
Make Sunni Muslim Arab leaders face justice for their crimes against humanity.
Make American, European, Russian and Chinese leaders pay for their crimes against humanity.
How many Nigerians must Boko Haram kill before there is any European and American outrage?
How many Somalis and Kenyans must Al Shabbab kill before there is any American and European outrage?
Are Christians and Muslims and Black Africans created equal as human being brothers and sister persons? Or not?
3
of course people are equal.
blackmamba,
believe me I am just as upset as you.
hearing what those 4 men did to the 147 people just left me feeling stunned that people could be so wicked.
we are are living in a time in which religion has become a reason for many people to murder people that don't share the same faith as them.
but mama,
try not to let these things scare you because there will come a time when these things will stop.
believe me I am just as upset as you.
hearing what those 4 men did to the 147 people just left me feeling stunned that people could be so wicked.
we are are living in a time in which religion has become a reason for many people to murder people that don't share the same faith as them.
but mama,
try not to let these things scare you because there will come a time when these things will stop.
If the UN would devote less resources to the Palestinians and less time to the demonization of Israel, then maybe they would have the credibility to persecute the global terrorists. Same goes for the NYT.
8
The standard for justice is not that you can find some one who is a worse criminal than you. Is Israel as bad as ISIS very few would say yes. But that isn't the issue. The issue is whether Israel is committing war crimes and by most measures it is, from using cluster bombs in civilian areas to massively disproportionate responses, to a settlement program that has no possible justification in law and to brutalization of a civilian population. Certainly if you are a Muslim or Arab the US and the West are providing cover for criminals so when the US wishes to pursue non Israel criminals it does not have any moral or legal standing.
Let international law proceed, let resolutions that have validity in the UN(there have been many not only supported by corrupt governments as the Israeli supporters claim) move foreward but based on facts. Take away the excuse of dishonest blanket support for Israel.
Let international law proceed, let resolutions that have validity in the UN(there have been many not only supported by corrupt governments as the Israeli supporters claim) move foreward but based on facts. Take away the excuse of dishonest blanket support for Israel.
1
" No. The horrendous crimes committed by members of the Islamic State, also known as ISIS and ISIL, fall squarely within the court’s jurisdiction. It certainly makes more sense for the court’s prosecutor to investigate the Islamic State than to investigate the United States or Britain for treatment of detainees or Israel for its handling of last year’s Gaza conflict, as some activists have called for. "
According to Mr. Bellinger III makes 'more sense' for the UN International Criminal Court (ICC) to investigate the Islamic State and not W. or Netanyahu for war crimes and crimes against humanity. Why?
Fascinating how a legal practitioner, supposedly with expertise on international law, makes an argument using 'makes more sense' to support his basic assertion.
Since its inception, the UN ICC has being used - quite successfully - to punish third world African warlords and, exceptionally, political leaders of the former Yugoslavia. Let's not forget the US is not a member of the ICC.
According to Mr. Bellinger III makes 'more sense' for the UN International Criminal Court (ICC) to investigate the Islamic State and not W. or Netanyahu for war crimes and crimes against humanity. Why?
Fascinating how a legal practitioner, supposedly with expertise on international law, makes an argument using 'makes more sense' to support his basic assertion.
Since its inception, the UN ICC has being used - quite successfully - to punish third world African warlords and, exceptionally, political leaders of the former Yugoslavia. Let's not forget the US is not a member of the ICC.
3
Yeah, I'm sure the mass murderers/sex traffickers/slavers of ISIS are shivering in their sheets at night in dread of the lawyers at the ICC calling them war criminals.
Thing is, absolutely none of this means squat unless less lawyerly but more effective measures to suppress ISIS take place. And, dollars to donuts, whatever tactics that might take, were the United States to be involved, would generate more lawyerly outrage a'la yes, I know we said to suppress ISIS, but we had absolutely no idea it would require that.
Apparently, it's so much more psychologically satisfying to go through some meaningless legal ritual and figuratively cast the despised targets into the netherworld with the wailing and the gnashing of teeth where they can no longer associate with the cool kids, then pat yourself on the back for a job well done and return to your full time job of criticizing how the US tries to do its job of protecting the global system.
Thing is, absolutely none of this means squat unless less lawyerly but more effective measures to suppress ISIS take place. And, dollars to donuts, whatever tactics that might take, were the United States to be involved, would generate more lawyerly outrage a'la yes, I know we said to suppress ISIS, but we had absolutely no idea it would require that.
Apparently, it's so much more psychologically satisfying to go through some meaningless legal ritual and figuratively cast the despised targets into the netherworld with the wailing and the gnashing of teeth where they can no longer associate with the cool kids, then pat yourself on the back for a job well done and return to your full time job of criticizing how the US tries to do its job of protecting the global system.
1
Justice they should face certainly.
To gain the trust of the world, and the golden rule ' Do Unto Others, as you'r have them do unto you' We would need to add our signature to the ICC as a fair justice system, which as a country we do not recognize.
Also we would need to add the ninkumpoops who created the opportunity for this to happen there- Rumsfeld/ Cheney/ Etc... Then it would be fair. Punish the brutality on all sides and the guilty parties for creating it.
To gain the trust of the world, and the golden rule ' Do Unto Others, as you'r have them do unto you' We would need to add our signature to the ICC as a fair justice system, which as a country we do not recognize.
Also we would need to add the ninkumpoops who created the opportunity for this to happen there- Rumsfeld/ Cheney/ Etc... Then it would be fair. Punish the brutality on all sides and the guilty parties for creating it.
2
But Kurt,
remember that While America rightly condemns what Isis Do in the name of Islam,
Look at what America permits in the name of Capitalism.
1. smoking.
consider the damage that smoking does to health
and the strain it puts on the American health service that has to treat people with serious health problems caused from smoking.
consider Too that those are man made problems
created because of human greed.
so because of Man's greed,
they are willing to betray exploit and ensnare one another.
and what's even worse is the response by the American government.
it's willingness to allow people to exploit one another for profit is what has lead to these problems.
and if that wasn't enough it also exports arms to other nations in return for money.
but don't weapons destroy lives Kurt?
doesn't smoking ruin health and destroy lives Kurt?
yet the government permits both to flourish even though they are not beneficial to anyone.
but they permit them because of the money that they generate.
consider Kurt the rivers of blood that has been spilled in the countless wars America fought in.
basically America is unable to stand on the moral platform and condemn the wrongdoing of others
because America is Just as guilty of wrongdoing itself.
you pointed it out by naming the key people, Rumsfeld,Cheney,etc.
irresponsible people behind the wheel of government are comparable to alcohol intoxicated people driving buses and trains full of passengers.
all end up hurt all over due the driver(s)
remember that While America rightly condemns what Isis Do in the name of Islam,
Look at what America permits in the name of Capitalism.
1. smoking.
consider the damage that smoking does to health
and the strain it puts on the American health service that has to treat people with serious health problems caused from smoking.
consider Too that those are man made problems
created because of human greed.
so because of Man's greed,
they are willing to betray exploit and ensnare one another.
and what's even worse is the response by the American government.
it's willingness to allow people to exploit one another for profit is what has lead to these problems.
and if that wasn't enough it also exports arms to other nations in return for money.
but don't weapons destroy lives Kurt?
doesn't smoking ruin health and destroy lives Kurt?
yet the government permits both to flourish even though they are not beneficial to anyone.
but they permit them because of the money that they generate.
consider Kurt the rivers of blood that has been spilled in the countless wars America fought in.
basically America is unable to stand on the moral platform and condemn the wrongdoing of others
because America is Just as guilty of wrongdoing itself.
you pointed it out by naming the key people, Rumsfeld,Cheney,etc.
irresponsible people behind the wheel of government are comparable to alcohol intoxicated people driving buses and trains full of passengers.
all end up hurt all over due the driver(s)
ISIS seems to be a very sophisticated organization, whose leaders we seem not to know.
Who are they?
If we know them, why not publish their names so they understand that one day they will face justice for what they have done.
I believe even a fanatic jihadist will take notice of that.
Who are they?
If we know them, why not publish their names so they understand that one day they will face justice for what they have done.
I believe even a fanatic jihadist will take notice of that.
3
The U.N. won't do anything. Any military resolution will be vetoed by Russia and/or China.
1
Prosecute Bush, Cheney, Rice, Rumsfeld, Blair and the other culprits of the Iraq massacre.
In addition to massive war crimes, their despicable acts gave rise to ISIS in the first place.
In addition to massive war crimes, their despicable acts gave rise to ISIS in the first place.
18
Unless the United States commits to the International Criminal Court (and persuades Israel to do the same), it will continue its near-irrelevance, which is a real shame. If we were to empower it, that could make an enormous difference. American governments, however, only recognize international law when it is convenient to do so. We can't live in fear of politicized investigations forever; we should be doing more to bolster the court as a global leader. Certainly, the Republicans will throw a temper tantrum and warn that we are surrendering our sovereignty, when all we're really surrendering is the right to do what we want, where we want, and how we want, absent any consequences whatsoever because of our overwhelming military power. We shouldn't have that right anyway.
18