Great article and great initiative. It's an unfortunate fact that, while men need to take the lead on stopping domestic violence and violence against women, the victimized have to take the step of demonstrating why and how this needs to be done. Most importantly, the reasons from the men's point of view why violence is a bad needs to be explained. Carrot-stick is the only way human nature works, even if the stick is prison and the carrot is only the satisfaction of a "righteous" life and career, however you define it. No one would claim assaulting women is actually good for men; in all the examples we have today, assaulting women debases the perpetrator and is a big part of a steep downward spiral. No one happy, sane and successful violates another human being. If men, including athletes, understood the downside and cost of abuse, there would be a lot less of it. The hard part is getting that point across in enough time to save both parties, and relying on the good will of men to start this effort just isn't cutting it.
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I've worked on factory floors where the misogynist mentality is pervasive. To think that mentality can be overcome by a single talk is way naive.
Was she raped, or was it an alleged rape? There is a difference. I appreciate that she is a more compelling witness than Crystal Magnum, but I would still take everything she says with a grain of salt.
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And who would be the arbiter of whether it's rape or not? I guess an adult wouldn't really know whether the act was consensual or not. If someone punches me in the nose, but they say it was just in fun, I guess I would only have one vote.
Or here's another idea: if it is not your body, you don't get to say whether the attention is wanted or not.
Thanks for answering my life-long question: are guys really so .... they think that disrespectful, unsolicited, and rude attention is actually wanted? What percentage of women who were not dependent for a paycheck or needed to just maintain goodwill from a position of unequal physical or political strength would welcome such attention?
Just consider the next time you wink or leer or stare at a woman (let alone catcall or whistle) if she's really flattered or just wants to end the encounter with as little downside as possible. She might just be smiling back because she's afraid of the considerable cost of showing her disapproval.
This woman almost brave beyond comprehension. You will not easily find her peer
Or here's another idea: if it is not your body, you don't get to say whether the attention is wanted or not.
Thanks for answering my life-long question: are guys really so .... they think that disrespectful, unsolicited, and rude attention is actually wanted? What percentage of women who were not dependent for a paycheck or needed to just maintain goodwill from a position of unequal physical or political strength would welcome such attention?
Just consider the next time you wink or leer or stare at a woman (let alone catcall or whistle) if she's really flattered or just wants to end the encounter with as little downside as possible. She might just be smiling back because she's afraid of the considerable cost of showing her disapproval.
This woman almost brave beyond comprehension. You will not easily find her peer
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Hear Hear bokmal201. I was going to mention the SAME thing. I'll bet many of them feel they're being singled out. Well, YEAH.
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I think these talks are wonderful. In like we should have men address young women over any negative experiences they have suffered through the occasional female who lies, cheats and manipulates, using sex and anything else to get what she wants. We should hear from the men who have had their lives ruined by false rape allegations as well, and how the court system rarely if ever punishes women who behave this way. Speaking to young women about these matters may be helpful. If lumping all young men (athletes) into one ugly generalization, then why not do the same with young women? To do anything less would simply validate the people who say hating men is very in vogue.
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Why is a young virile man attracted to a young attractive woman? It isn't to be best friends, in fact, the closer they get to being best friends the less they appeal to one another. Guys are more guys when they're around other guys. In other words, they are more attracted to women sexually. Is it all right to use that word? I'm joking, this is the New York Times not the Daily Oklahoman. So what are we talking about here? The fact that we've created a social order that is so bizarre and mixed up, so far from what's natural/organic, so neurotic close to being psychotic we're out of sync with life. What is marriage? People are in love when they go into it but soon the woman wants to change the man because she can't stand living with someone so different than herself, she blabbers, he grunts, she laughs he sneers and drinks beer, then he laughs a little. Both know something is wrong in their relationship and each tries to adjust, to be an agreeable partner but they need booze, drugs or psychological help to even come close and the end result is catastrophic, that is, it can end in divorce, assault, separation, or the man becomes more womanlike and the woman becomes more manlike. What a mess. Male athletes who are on teams become enormously virile, their testosterone goes through the roof, they don't need steroid to put on muscle though some do as the age, so what do the need? No marriage but lots of women. It happens, it's actually biologically healthy but socially frowned upon.
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"Kathy Redmond, who accused a Nebraska football player of raping her in college, now teaches athletes to avoid the pitfalls of a perceived entitlement."
Is this Comedy Central or what? Most Americans, especially the gun-toting, flag-wavers, are far more concerned with the fortunes of their favorite sports teams than they are with the lives of US soldiers being lost during foreign conflicts. In fact, on women's issues the GOP is literally more in step with the Taliban than with America.
Is this Comedy Central or what? Most Americans, especially the gun-toting, flag-wavers, are far more concerned with the fortunes of their favorite sports teams than they are with the lives of US soldiers being lost during foreign conflicts. In fact, on women's issues the GOP is literally more in step with the Taliban than with America.
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Kathy should be commended for the role she's playing in helping to stem the violence among athletes. Recent events involving athletes serve as a lightning rod for the real problems surrounding domestic violence - a code of secrecy, lack of accountability, and stigma. A society that venerates athletes without holding them accountability for their transgressions does not help. Enough is enough! Domestic violence and sexual assault affect all of us - our families and friends, co-workers and employers. If victims are vilified for speaking up, we'll never be able to address the root causes. And if society as a whole does not begin to see it as the threat to public health that it is, we'll never see money put behind prevention. Kathy's experience is symptomatic of what happens with thousands across the country, and is the main reason why most victims do not come forward.
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Part of why we accept what athletes do is that we believe they are too stupid to do otherwise. Athletes are not necessarily stupid just as artists are not necessarily smart. We don't expect athletes to behave, so why should they? Giving them passes because we don't have expectations of normal behavior hurts everyone.
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The whole tone of this article rubs me the wrong way and I'm still not sure if I can articulate why.
I think the last sentence ..."Maybe what she said here today can s top one of these players form a career cut short." I am not worried about a career getting cut short. I'm worried about women being violated by men and abused by men within a sports culture that largely condones it. But maybe I need to be realistic and realize that we are all motivated by our desires and the desire for a successful athletic career rules all?
I think the last sentence ..."Maybe what she said here today can s top one of these players form a career cut short." I am not worried about a career getting cut short. I'm worried about women being violated by men and abused by men within a sports culture that largely condones it. But maybe I need to be realistic and realize that we are all motivated by our desires and the desire for a successful athletic career rules all?
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I fully understand the abuse as in a former marriage I experienced it. That said, her message needs to "appeal" to players. She needs to hook them if they are to "hear" what she says. I guarantee that not a one of them wants to have a career cut short. She hooks them with that.
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Note that most of the players in the photo are sitting in a defensive pose with arms crossed over their chests as they listen to Redmond. Telling.
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Well, she is basically there to say "this is how not to be a rapist".
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Why just athletes'? Are they a special class of predator? Seems if these athletes are a special class, more prone to rape, maybe the approach would be to ban all inter collegiate athletics from college campus. Hey, there would not be concussions, saving many lives. Gets one talking about 'athlete privilege', and if such exists, it is just one more reason to do away with all inter collegiate athletics. The article suggests these schools are the reason for providing this sense of entitlement to male athletes. So, do away with the problem, after all it really is all about money and providing a farm system for pro sports. Maybe a course in moral values for all students would work better.
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Athletes aren't a special class of predator. But there apparently is a culture in some schools, high schools included, that shields them from consequences of bad behavior. The attempt here is to preserve the athletic programs and ditch this culture. I think it's a worthwhile effort; it will benefit not only the possible targets of the athletes' bad behavior, but also the athletes themselves.
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I think that Kathy Redmond is doing a great service for these young men and the teams they represent.
She's clearly not let her circumstances frame her life with negativity. She was severely harmed, physically and mentally, yet she turned into a teacher, but not one who complains that other people "can't get it".
She expects that other people can, and should figure out that rape is unacceptable, and teaches the young men how to think about consequences, actions, and depth deep inside themselves. Very commendable.
Wonderful.
She's clearly not let her circumstances frame her life with negativity. She was severely harmed, physically and mentally, yet she turned into a teacher, but not one who complains that other people "can't get it".
She expects that other people can, and should figure out that rape is unacceptable, and teaches the young men how to think about consequences, actions, and depth deep inside themselves. Very commendable.
Wonderful.
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If none of the accused men have been convicted of a crime, then their names should not have been used in the article.
'Trial by media' is not acceptable in any newspaper, much less the New York Times.
'Trial by media' is not acceptable in any newspaper, much less the New York Times.
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After the New England Patriots drafted Christian Peter, they relinquished their rights to him in large part due to the backlash caused by his serial crimes. Myra Kraft, the wife of Patriots owner Robert Kraft spearheaded the campaign to never allow him to play for New England. So, read up on Christian Peter and maybe you won't feel that he is being "tried by media." He had at least eight run-ins with the law and at least three women who accused him of either rape or sexual assault.
Not only am I thrilled about what Redmond is doing but bravo to the Royals for having her speak. And why isn't every major sports team having this conversation? For that matter why isn't it starting in high school? Team owners would save themselves a lot of bad press/money if they were to be proactive about abuse and educate their players before the abuse begins.
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Judging by the players' defensive posture (arms crossed across the chest) in this photo, I doubt that this talk is having the intended positive effect.
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Enough already with the pseudo body language interpretation. If these guys were being read the menu for today's lunch half of them would have their arms crossed.
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Thank you for covering. It's about time men get real about this. Honestly, though, unless our culture faces up to the widespread use of porn, we will never quash these attitudes.
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“She tried to convince them that the too-common custom of not opening up and sharing their feelings on personal issues for fear of appearing weak was as unenlightened as failing to report elbow soreness to the team trainer.” That is, it is unenlightened!
"“What I appreciate about you guys is your honesty," Redmond said before adding that their stubborn stoicism is too often their problem, on field and off.”
Stoicism involves accepting what can’t be changed, but addressing what can be changed. “Stubborn Stoicism” is not stoicism at all. It is bullheaded acceptance of something that can be fixed. It is unenlightened and weak!
"“What I appreciate about you guys is your honesty," Redmond said before adding that their stubborn stoicism is too often their problem, on field and off.”
Stoicism involves accepting what can’t be changed, but addressing what can be changed. “Stubborn Stoicism” is not stoicism at all. It is bullheaded acceptance of something that can be fixed. It is unenlightened and weak!
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Athletes are often granted waivers from decent behavior by society and by close friends and family. They are treated as celebrities long before they become celebrities. Their skills and talent in helping a team win are more important than their good behavior. No one arrives at adulthood as a full blown rapist unless they are a psychopath or worse. Athletes are told that they are special and, even worse, they are allowed to get away with behavior that would land a regular person in jail or in trouble. Until young athletes are treated the same way as other young people when it comes to rights and privileges, especially the sexual sort, adult athletes will feel free to take advantage of others sexually and otherwise.
Jocks should not be exempt from rules and standards just because they are helping the football, baseball, or hockey team to win. They should not be taught to expect sexual favors from anyone or any other favors based upon their talent as an athlete. Just as they work at developing their talents the rest of us work too. While we may never be well known for our gifts and may want to meet them or know them, they should not take it for granted that they can assault us, sexually abuse us, or use us merely because they are athletes. That goes for male and female athletes though the latter abusing someone is much less common than the former.
Jocks should not be exempt from rules and standards just because they are helping the football, baseball, or hockey team to win. They should not be taught to expect sexual favors from anyone or any other favors based upon their talent as an athlete. Just as they work at developing their talents the rest of us work too. While we may never be well known for our gifts and may want to meet them or know them, they should not take it for granted that they can assault us, sexually abuse us, or use us merely because they are athletes. That goes for male and female athletes though the latter abusing someone is much less common than the former.
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I agree with a lot of this:
I cant type apostrophes, quotation marks, or initial parentheses. no idea why.
In prep school, which was top notch and very liberal, when the captain of the basketball team, who was handsome and went on to Yale, graduated he bequeathed )in a ceremony) his girlfriend, who was considered the hottest girl in school, to the new captain of the basketball team. It was understood that the girl in question dated the best athlete in school. our school didnt have football. in other words, the captain of the basketball team was entitled to her, and she liked that.
the sense of entitlement that male athletes have is fostered, to some degree, by the cheerleaders and female sports groupies who traditionally treat them like local gods.
I am not at all saying that non-consenual sex is ever acceptable, but many high school and college athletes feel like gods because thats how they have been treated.
I cant type apostrophes, quotation marks, or initial parentheses. no idea why.
In prep school, which was top notch and very liberal, when the captain of the basketball team, who was handsome and went on to Yale, graduated he bequeathed )in a ceremony) his girlfriend, who was considered the hottest girl in school, to the new captain of the basketball team. It was understood that the girl in question dated the best athlete in school. our school didnt have football. in other words, the captain of the basketball team was entitled to her, and she liked that.
the sense of entitlement that male athletes have is fostered, to some degree, by the cheerleaders and female sports groupies who traditionally treat them like local gods.
I am not at all saying that non-consenual sex is ever acceptable, but many high school and college athletes feel like gods because thats how they have been treated.
1
Remember these athletes, kids don't become entitled (the ones's that do) without help. You also need to look at the teacher's, administrator's, coaches, booster clubs and the parents at both the high school and collegiate level. Especially, if there is a pattern of abuse from player to player, class to class, school to school. And as hard as it may be to see, each athlete, 'jock.' should be treated as individual's. Not all athletes abuse, not all consider themselves entitled. We cannot let the one's that do abuse, shield us from the one's that do not; that are good people and respect their place in society, and above all, each other.
3
“Did you forgive him?” Willie Mays Aikens asked.
This question from a man who
A. clearly doesn't understand how vile rape is, that rape is not sex (like a one-night stand) a but violent crime, and
B. wants an unrelated victim to absolve his conscience for terrible things he's done (so he won't feel guilty about the women he personally has harmed).
I was beaten and raped in college 35 years ago, when I was a freshman.
I also had a lot of therapy, many years later. And "after much weeping, suffering and counseling," I trained to become a sexual assault victim counselor, which I did for years. Yes, helping other women helped me heal, too.
No, I have never forgiven the rapist. I never will. I don't have to. He was a psychopath. He took a part of my soul that I have never gotten back.
I once had a man do what Mr. Aikens did. Knowing that I was a rape survivor and a counselor, out of the blue he confessed to me that he had raped a woman when he was a young man and he asked me to forgive him. He wanted me, as a Token Rape Victim, to absolve him of his guilt. I nearly vomited on him. I had a conversation with him about getting therapy and gave him a referral.
Readers: NO simpering pitying replies of apology to me or sympathy for my "pain." I am not damaged. Many people unfortunately go through traumatic experiences. The rape was something that happened to me, it is not what I am. THAT is the #1 most important lesson of recovery.
This question from a man who
A. clearly doesn't understand how vile rape is, that rape is not sex (like a one-night stand) a but violent crime, and
B. wants an unrelated victim to absolve his conscience for terrible things he's done (so he won't feel guilty about the women he personally has harmed).
I was beaten and raped in college 35 years ago, when I was a freshman.
I also had a lot of therapy, many years later. And "after much weeping, suffering and counseling," I trained to become a sexual assault victim counselor, which I did for years. Yes, helping other women helped me heal, too.
No, I have never forgiven the rapist. I never will. I don't have to. He was a psychopath. He took a part of my soul that I have never gotten back.
I once had a man do what Mr. Aikens did. Knowing that I was a rape survivor and a counselor, out of the blue he confessed to me that he had raped a woman when he was a young man and he asked me to forgive him. He wanted me, as a Token Rape Victim, to absolve him of his guilt. I nearly vomited on him. I had a conversation with him about getting therapy and gave him a referral.
Readers: NO simpering pitying replies of apology to me or sympathy for my "pain." I am not damaged. Many people unfortunately go through traumatic experiences. The rape was something that happened to me, it is not what I am. THAT is the #1 most important lesson of recovery.
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Striking to note how starkly difference your response to Aikens' question is to that of Kathy Redmond. While you find the question repulsive, and indicative of Aikens' ignorance, Redmond, the subject to whom the question was posed found it instructive and conducive to her on-going conversations with these athletes. The lesson seemingly being that we are often too quick to pass judgment on others whom we don't know or have had no personal interaction with. You don't know the context of the question, why Aikens felt the need to ask it at that point, was it something she said that prompted it, for instance, but you chose to condemn him, using that condemnation as a platform to then tell of your own personal experience. That to me is very telling, but I shall leave things where they are.
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You say in your comment that "I once had a man do what Mr. Aikens did" You seem to indicate that Aikens confessed to raping someone then asked for forgiveness of Remond. Mr. Aikens has never been accused or convicted of any such crime.
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To L in MA: I agree - the question made my stomach turn, and the answer - pre-packaged absolution - was even worse. I have no quibble with Kathy Redmond, but cannot for the life of me figure out why the reporter/editor went with this angle.
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