I remember the arrival of Humanae Vitae like it was yesterday. People were like children waiting for the pope's permission to practice birth control, and rumors were flying that the committee convened by Pope Paul VI had recommended just that. And then, he said no. The thing the pope did not anticipate is that most Catholics would respond like adults. They did not need his permission. All they needed was a prayerful assessment of their own situation, and the freedom of a grown-up conscience.
26
How sad that the absolute moral imperative isn't "Do not make more babies than you can adequately nurture and help prepare for a happy life."
Unmarried sexless indoctrinated men repeating and imposing the same Doctrine from and since The Bronze Age.
Unmarried sexless indoctrinated men repeating and imposing the same Doctrine from and since The Bronze Age.
26
Fine piece today, Frank....stuffed with commonsense which hasn't yet become common enough among our prelates in the Catholic Church.
People don't marry to procreate. They marry to love one another for life. Loving one another doesn't mean a baby every year or two. Yes, there was a time when families needed a lot of babies. It's not now.
I am one of those Catholics who doesn't need his Church's teachings to see how wrong abortion is. I became convinced after taking Biology 101. But contraception has nothing to do with destroying a human life. It's preventing life when it's not needed or wanted.
Contraception is a far, far better choice than the decision to destroy a life. So, let's negotiate, Francis....use contraception when you need it and let's stop the abortions.
People don't marry to procreate. They marry to love one another for life. Loving one another doesn't mean a baby every year or two. Yes, there was a time when families needed a lot of babies. It's not now.
I am one of those Catholics who doesn't need his Church's teachings to see how wrong abortion is. I became convinced after taking Biology 101. But contraception has nothing to do with destroying a human life. It's preventing life when it's not needed or wanted.
Contraception is a far, far better choice than the decision to destroy a life. So, let's negotiate, Francis....use contraception when you need it and let's stop the abortions.
4
It's just a matter of time. Adherents of one of the World's three great religions is propagating at a rate far faster than the other two. So, go ahead and talk about abortion and birth control and the secular views on the subjects. The 'great' religion of which I speak doesn't necessarily adhere to those views. It is just a matter of time when that religion will be a serious political and social force with which to be reckoned - everywhere. Live long. Just wait and see.
2
A very wise, loving and enlightened man taught a profoundly simple message about love and how we should treat one another. Over the years, people who never really understood his true meaning slowly built an institution that accumulated wealth and power. They did this not by teaching or exemplifying his original message, but through making laws, rules and regulations laying on mens shoulders "burdens too heavy to bear." ("Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites!...")
I'm sure he would be turning over in his grave if he could see the pain and suffering that has been inflicted on humanity in his name.
I'm sure he would be turning over in his grave if he could see the pain and suffering that has been inflicted on humanity in his name.
19
Pope Francis seems like a breath of fresh air. What a nice departure from the past.
4
Personally I practice abstinence. From organized religion.
36
This sort of op-ed uses the theme that religion is sometimes silly.
Well, yes. Obviously.
But it's also actively dangerous on so many levels: intolerant, evangelical to the point of being genocidal, anti-critical thinking, and often misosgynistic. And that's just for starters.
Religion ultimately ruins everything.
Well, yes. Obviously.
But it's also actively dangerous on so many levels: intolerant, evangelical to the point of being genocidal, anti-critical thinking, and often misosgynistic. And that's just for starters.
Religion ultimately ruins everything.
18
It's remarkable to me that the words of any human being, whether Pope or Texas politician, can be received as if the were from a "God"!
When are we going to get over that?! All religious establishments are simply cleverly disguised forms of political institutions, it seems to me, trying to be the one that gets to decide, ideally in their view, everything!
When are we going to get over that?! All religious establishments are simply cleverly disguised forms of political institutions, it seems to me, trying to be the one that gets to decide, ideally in their view, everything!
23
What Bill Maher said.
3
Bless your Mother, Frank. And Bless good Pope Francis, who is on the way to dealing with Catholics and birth control in his inimitable fashion. Catholicism changes slow as molasses runs in Alaska in January. Alas, men in long dresses, black or white and red beanies, aka yarmulkahs, don't know cabbage from shinola about womens' wondrous innards. They don't know an adnexa from a fibroid, a cervix from another hole nearby, the intimate and world-shakingly miraculous method within the body of a woman to create a new human life. Face it, the man's input is only a few teaspoons of DNA, RNA and telomeres, and voila, a miracle! - unto us a child is born after 9 months of shaking and baking within the sheltering oven of her or his (or their) adorable mother. I would say - not being of Good Pope Francis's suasion - that he is doing his darndest to change the antidiluvian birth control method of Rhythm in the Catholic Church so that the couples' desired number of children will be born, and the women will not be breeding (like bunnies). Good Pope Francis could do a lot for the inexorable overpopulation of our world by softening the "be fruitful and multiply over and over" message from the holy fathers (and sisters). Women priests, women popes (not in our lifetime) would bring the Catholic Church into the 21st Century. The Church, despite Good Pope Francis - Glinda the Good in the iridescent bubble of the Papacy - lies, alas, somewhere in the mindless mists of the mid-1500s.
2
What on earth makes Mr. Bruni (or anyone else) assume that the pope's allusion to rabbits had to do with birth control? Isn't it much more likely that he was simply telling Catholics to abstain from sex? My interpretation of the pope's message is his attempt to temper the old Catholic notion of being fruitful and multiplying. Progressive Catholics today are so starved for any hint of liberality and rationality from their church that they continually give this pope far more credit than he deserves, whether on gay rights issues or, now, birth control.
17
From a serious Catholic:
How the the "c"atholic light crowd loves to excoriate official Catholic teaching at every conceivable opportunity, trotting out priests who don't believe or practice the faith that bore them! Oh yes, let's also trot out misdeeds and cruelties of Catholics in distant lands and times, and assign blame to the Catholic Church, even though church teaching would never brook these sins. Catholic teaching is that life is God's domain, and life is sacred from the moment of conception. Every single contraceptive pill has abortifacient potential. One of the ways they work is to make the uterine wall hostile to implantation of the newly conceived child. Of course, liberal "c"atholics don't want to hear this, so they stick their fingers in their ears, and do their 'la-la-la" mantra. If life is indeed sacred from the time of conception, then the deliberate or negligent expelling of this newly formed human being is criminal.
Perhaps the only Church established by Christ shares His wisdom, a wisdom which puts Mary at the top of creation, the Woman who said 'yes' to Life Himself.
How the the "c"atholic light crowd loves to excoriate official Catholic teaching at every conceivable opportunity, trotting out priests who don't believe or practice the faith that bore them! Oh yes, let's also trot out misdeeds and cruelties of Catholics in distant lands and times, and assign blame to the Catholic Church, even though church teaching would never brook these sins. Catholic teaching is that life is God's domain, and life is sacred from the moment of conception. Every single contraceptive pill has abortifacient potential. One of the ways they work is to make the uterine wall hostile to implantation of the newly conceived child. Of course, liberal "c"atholics don't want to hear this, so they stick their fingers in their ears, and do their 'la-la-la" mantra. If life is indeed sacred from the time of conception, then the deliberate or negligent expelling of this newly formed human being is criminal.
Perhaps the only Church established by Christ shares His wisdom, a wisdom which puts Mary at the top of creation, the Woman who said 'yes' to Life Himself.
2
Ironically, we have invented more ways to conceive than every before available. What is the Catholic position on in vitro, embryo transfer, frozen eggs, etc. ?
Reading this article after reading about Orthodox Jewish approaches to sex is to say the least interesting. Simply not having sex from the first day of menses to about day 16 afterwards would seem to prevent pregnancy. Is ovulation day 14 after or day 14 before the next period??
Reading this article after reading about Orthodox Jewish approaches to sex is to say the least interesting. Simply not having sex from the first day of menses to about day 16 afterwards would seem to prevent pregnancy. Is ovulation day 14 after or day 14 before the next period??
1
Pope Francis apparently also understands that Global Warming is a threat to humanity. And with business-as-usual as a number of climate studies report we are heading into a human catastrophe by the end of the century. Without birth control we can anticipate some 11 billion people by then, and though few climate studies say it up front billions of human lives will be lost, some in the most savage of ways. With contraceptives limiting that population growth to 1.2 a family we could have a population around a two billion by 2100 and approaching something sustainable--this assumes agressive climate policy beginning yesterday. But if Pope Francis knows the realities of global warming then he knows that if religious leaders don't encourage contraception then nature will cull us --religion or no religion. I question the morality of refusing to act on what we know, if we are to believe knowing is God's way of helping us.
8
I can't help but think that the Catholic church's condemnation of "artificial" birth control, and insistence on large families is simply a plan to have an ongoing supply of compliant, obedient, downtrodden, tithing new Catholics to unquestioningly support, financially and politically, the existing hierarchy of the church.
5
Why does relaxation of the birth-control ban have to be seen as an admission of "error" on the part of the church (even though it is, and a grievous one at that)? It's simple -- "go forth and multiply" made sense when the world had plenty of elbow room. Now it doesn't. Certainly god (as described in the fantasy literature) would approve of us not overpopulating ourselves into misery, no?
11
Now it doesn't, nor did it a century ago. In that time priests and bishops were adamant about the sin of contraception, about the duty of women to submit to their husbands etc. As an altar boy I heard most of it, but I know more terrorizing went on in confession boxes. I recall our campaigns in Ireland to legalize contraception and divorce. The Church has not changed its mind after mature deliberation--it was dragged kicking and screaming into reality.
12
I suspect that if the Pope had learned how many street children had been rounded up and put in cages so that the eyes of the Pope would not fall on the riff-raff, he might gone so far as to REQUIRE both control.
10
Catholic doctrine comes from God through church hierarchy based on needs of the earthly church.
Clergy passing their property down to their families and not the church; solution: celibacy.
Fishermen going through rough times: fish on Friday.
Families needing children to work: no birth control.
Europeans conquering the New World, and what to do with the natives: sign on to Catholicism or die.
Sightings of Mary shedding tears from stone images: sainthood for the seers to build Church membership.
Is there a pattern here?
Clergy passing their property down to their families and not the church; solution: celibacy.
Fishermen going through rough times: fish on Friday.
Families needing children to work: no birth control.
Europeans conquering the New World, and what to do with the natives: sign on to Catholicism or die.
Sightings of Mary shedding tears from stone images: sainthood for the seers to build Church membership.
Is there a pattern here?
12
it would be good if the NYT required its pundits to do a minumum "research" to bolster their opinion pieces. Hans Rosling (of Gapminder fame) did a great piece in Qatar that dispelled the myth that religion is tied to the number children (http://www.ted.com/talks/hans_rosling_religions_and_babies/transcript?la.... His conclusion, to quote Bill Clinton: "It's the economy, stupid". As poverty diminishes, the number of children goes down everywhere regardless of religion; add educating women and having them work, the effect is even larger. Disdain and lack of compassion for the poor is a much greater problem than any religion.
3
How encouraging. We now have a personable, although stupid, dab of lipstick on the pig..
The Roman Catholic Church.
I am a recovering Catholic. My disdain for that bunch knows no limits. I have met some really good guys who were priests.
They kept on doing what they do. The work of Christ. The Church was, like the Czar, far away.
The Roman Catholic Church.
I am a recovering Catholic. My disdain for that bunch knows no limits. I have met some really good guys who were priests.
They kept on doing what they do. The work of Christ. The Church was, like the Czar, far away.
2
Ah, the rhythm method, better known as Catholic roulette.
6
"Was he signaling an imminent change in church teaching, or was he merely getting carried away with comparisons and colloquialisms, as he tends to do?"
Perhaps it was just altitude sickness. If he had given his "rabbits" remark while on the ground, perhaps then we could give it more weight. Right now, it just looks like they need to run a bit more cabin pressurization in any aircraft transporting the Pope.
Perhaps it was just altitude sickness. If he had given his "rabbits" remark while on the ground, perhaps then we could give it more weight. Right now, it just looks like they need to run a bit more cabin pressurization in any aircraft transporting the Pope.
Pope Francis never used the phrase "breed like rabbits." He said, " Some think that-excuse the language- in order to be good Catholics, we must be like rabbits. No! Responsible parenthood!"
This is nothing new. John Paul II said "Catholic thought is often misunderstood...as if the Church supported an ideology of fertility at all costs, urging married couples to procreate indiscriminately and without thought for the future."
Pope Paul VI has said the same about responsible parenthood in Humanae Vitae. However, few will ever read it, and form uninformed opinions.
By the way, Paul VI also advocated land expropriation from the rich when the good of the people was at stake and Francis has said the unjust economic structures of countries are the true reason for poverty. It is fascinating how to the left much of Catholic thought is and how unacceptable it would be would be to the liberals reading this article.
Sadly, very few will ever read the reasoning behind the doctrines of the Church and will continue to think they grasp 2000 years of wisdom and condemn it based on a laughably incorrect and misleading headlines.
This is nothing new. John Paul II said "Catholic thought is often misunderstood...as if the Church supported an ideology of fertility at all costs, urging married couples to procreate indiscriminately and without thought for the future."
Pope Paul VI has said the same about responsible parenthood in Humanae Vitae. However, few will ever read it, and form uninformed opinions.
By the way, Paul VI also advocated land expropriation from the rich when the good of the people was at stake and Francis has said the unjust economic structures of countries are the true reason for poverty. It is fascinating how to the left much of Catholic thought is and how unacceptable it would be would be to the liberals reading this article.
Sadly, very few will ever read the reasoning behind the doctrines of the Church and will continue to think they grasp 2000 years of wisdom and condemn it based on a laughably incorrect and misleading headlines.
5
My Mother had six children in eight years. Then, either she cut the old man off or got sane.
6
Of all the Catholics I know personally, the church's teachings on contraception is irrelevant and ignored. Enlightened Catholic church leadership is an oxymoron.
6
Dear Mr. Bruni,
I admire your continued attempts to remain Catholic and gay. The basic, bottom line, no holds bared consequence of your "activities", however, means you're going to hell (or, maybe, Purgatory for a couple of hundred millennia if you have "faithfully" confessed your "sin").
Unless my 12 years of Catholic education fails me, that much of the whole "religious deal" is still intact. Hence, the universal "Get Out of Jail Almost Free Card", confession! Except for the Middle Ages where the wealthy could buy "indulgences" and skip Purgatory altogether and go straight to heaven; I assume with the dawning of the "Reformation", even the Koch Brothers couldn't buy an "indulgence" nowadays.
It would seem the current, new, improved, talks like a "regular guy" Pope Francis is finally coming around to the reality of the Catholic Church these days; revenues are down and the front man, pitching to the world (How many millions turned out in the Philippines for his appearance? How much money did that raise?) had to seem a little more "attuned" to the 21st Century unlike his predecessor who would have probably loved the whole "bad priest" thing to just "go away".
So the "Vicar of Christ" wants people to stop "breeding like rabbits"?
Reminds me of an old joke: what do you call people who practice the "rhythm method"? Parents!
Pull down the cardboard facade that is Pope Francis and, guess what, nothing new to see here!
God may exist but no religion has a handle on him/her/it yet.
I admire your continued attempts to remain Catholic and gay. The basic, bottom line, no holds bared consequence of your "activities", however, means you're going to hell (or, maybe, Purgatory for a couple of hundred millennia if you have "faithfully" confessed your "sin").
Unless my 12 years of Catholic education fails me, that much of the whole "religious deal" is still intact. Hence, the universal "Get Out of Jail Almost Free Card", confession! Except for the Middle Ages where the wealthy could buy "indulgences" and skip Purgatory altogether and go straight to heaven; I assume with the dawning of the "Reformation", even the Koch Brothers couldn't buy an "indulgence" nowadays.
It would seem the current, new, improved, talks like a "regular guy" Pope Francis is finally coming around to the reality of the Catholic Church these days; revenues are down and the front man, pitching to the world (How many millions turned out in the Philippines for his appearance? How much money did that raise?) had to seem a little more "attuned" to the 21st Century unlike his predecessor who would have probably loved the whole "bad priest" thing to just "go away".
So the "Vicar of Christ" wants people to stop "breeding like rabbits"?
Reminds me of an old joke: what do you call people who practice the "rhythm method"? Parents!
Pull down the cardboard facade that is Pope Francis and, guess what, nothing new to see here!
God may exist but no religion has a handle on him/her/it yet.
1
Ironic that the "pro-life" Catholic hierarchy preaches against the use of life-saving condoms in the battle against AIDS.
7
Frank, This is a magnificent column. You started off being "cheeky" (what a wonderful word to be used in association with comments about the Catholic Church), and ended up with a final paragraph that was right on target.
Well done, Sir, well done!
Well done, Sir, well done!
1
If anything is in need of discerning, it's our penchant to get all worked up any time a Papal remark or gesture might be construed as softening on doctrine. Is Pope Francis really showing respect in a moment of candid observation ? Or is he simply foreshadowing the inevitable, like the first verbal gestures towards allowing vaccines.
Contentions of Catholics are quickly distilled by sourcing the essence of Jesus' message: God's Kingdom, God the Creator, is at hand. A clear lane of communication for any person alive. A message that was, at its time, revolutionary in jettisoning musty tradition of sacrificing lambs, paying tithes, invoking intercedents as requisite paths to God and to holiness.
Yet in the centuries since, the Vatican has littered that lane of communication with doctrine and sacraments which effectively undercut our personal connection to God; doctrine that bristles at the hard choices of daily life-- choices that have in fact brought us face to face with God and deepened our faith; sacraments that stand like giant pylons between us and salvation.
Jesus gave God to every person, on every person's terms.
Cue the revolution.
Contentions of Catholics are quickly distilled by sourcing the essence of Jesus' message: God's Kingdom, God the Creator, is at hand. A clear lane of communication for any person alive. A message that was, at its time, revolutionary in jettisoning musty tradition of sacrificing lambs, paying tithes, invoking intercedents as requisite paths to God and to holiness.
Yet in the centuries since, the Vatican has littered that lane of communication with doctrine and sacraments which effectively undercut our personal connection to God; doctrine that bristles at the hard choices of daily life-- choices that have in fact brought us face to face with God and deepened our faith; sacraments that stand like giant pylons between us and salvation.
Jesus gave God to every person, on every person's terms.
Cue the revolution.
2
What I don't understand is why people remain part of a church whose doctrine is hopelessly outdated and irrelevant to today's world. No birth control, no abortion. Women should stay home and take care of their children.
What world are these male priests and popes living in?
What world are these male priests and popes living in?
12
As far as we know (meaning the New Testament), Jesus never mentioned contraception, he never said only men could be priests, he never mentioned homosexuality, nor did he ever ask anyone for money.
Catholic dogma has changed over the centuries, and it could continue to change, without ever running afoul of what Jesus said.
Catholic dogma has changed over the centuries, and it could continue to change, without ever running afoul of what Jesus said.
6
It's funny, quixotic that in the 21st century many well educated people believe in a superstition: all religions.
Scary.
Scary.
8
Some other than Catholic denominations promote large families - I don't think contraceptives are forbidden, but large families are definitely encouraged. The church I am thinking of needs a "new revelation" to reverse the huge family concept!!
1
The larger issue is for all religions to adapt to modernity and not simply try to will it away.
1
After some additional thought, I must add: I think Mr Bruni and others read too much into Francis' comments 'who am I to judge' and that LGBT Catholics had much to contribute, etc. The American hierarchy had gone off the rails in its Savanarolan obsession with gay sex. Francis was simply hewing to what has been the official doctrine all along, often phrased as 'hate the sin, love the sinner'. I'm not going to argue that approach here, beyond saying that close analysis reveals multiple flaws in it. But 'let me rephrase this more tactfully' does not signal a change of mind, only a change of tone.
1
If religions truely cared about humanity, they would be the greatest advocates of birth control. In many locations, overpopulation is a curse upon the land and its inhabitants. It is the prime source of human misery.
Simply put, the world would be a better place if there were less of us.
The strains of overpopulation are seen everywhere. The seas are over fished, Fresh water supplies are fading away. Wars for food, water and energy are on the horizon.
Global warming could be lessened if populations were reasonable.
There is a tipping point where technology cannot overcome the pressures of overpopulation. India, Bangladesh, Haiti are current examples. As time progresses more countries will succumb.
The pope's comment is a welcome breath of fresh air. It would be wonderful all religion's embraced population control.
Simply put, the world would be a better place if there were less of us.
The strains of overpopulation are seen everywhere. The seas are over fished, Fresh water supplies are fading away. Wars for food, water and energy are on the horizon.
Global warming could be lessened if populations were reasonable.
There is a tipping point where technology cannot overcome the pressures of overpopulation. India, Bangladesh, Haiti are current examples. As time progresses more countries will succumb.
The pope's comment is a welcome breath of fresh air. It would be wonderful all religion's embraced population control.
7
Who cares what the pope says? It's your life - think for yourself.
7
I am constantly amazed at how many ostensibly well-educated, intelligent and reasonable adults hand over so much of their personal decision-making to their Church. The first commandment should be think for yourself.
9
Pope Francis is a first generation Argentine son of Italian immigrants. Italy has the lowest unnatural birth rate in Europe.
The most populous Catholic nations on Earth -Brazil and the Phillipines -have people who breed like rabbits. Or are they just enjoying the gift of sex living la dolce vita?
If God had intended for us to be celibate and abstinent then why did He make us so hot for each other and sex so much fun?
The most populous Catholic nations on Earth -Brazil and the Phillipines -have people who breed like rabbits. Or are they just enjoying the gift of sex living la dolce vita?
If God had intended for us to be celibate and abstinent then why did He make us so hot for each other and sex so much fun?
1
The church doesn't require abstinence or celibacy.
Snake, it was the devil who made us so hot.
1
blackmamba - a possible answer to your question might be that "God" did not make us. Or if "God" did make us, then why are we also prone to disease, malformations, and all kinds of other terrible afflictions? Why would a God do that?
1
Posting as jroll, female, ex catholic.
And Frank Bruni's credentials to interpret for us the meaning of the pope's "breed like rabbits"? Let me say what Bruni doesn't apparently know. Perhaps he was subconsciously reacting positively to the word "breeder." This term is used contemptuously by many who celebrate their decision not to have children and some whose lifestyle may preclude heterosexual reproduction. Be that as it may, men do not "breed. It is women who "breed." It is women, the world over, who do not have access to friendly priests nor safe contraceptives, who suffer the consequences of the decision of the pope's church to condemn to endless childbearing even when their lives are at stake; even when they can not feed the children they already have. These are the women who struggle to be faithful to the only religion that they know.
Bruni's mother may or may not have encountered a "friendly" priest, I don't know, nor quite frankly does he. I have heard from women who were told by their doctors that another pregnancy would be fatal and priests who told them that they would go "straight to heaven" if they died in child birth. And not to worry about their left behind children, the Blessed Mother would take care of them.. I never saw the Blessed Mother in the streets of Bogota or the poor barrios of Latin America.
And Frank Bruni's credentials to interpret for us the meaning of the pope's "breed like rabbits"? Let me say what Bruni doesn't apparently know. Perhaps he was subconsciously reacting positively to the word "breeder." This term is used contemptuously by many who celebrate their decision not to have children and some whose lifestyle may preclude heterosexual reproduction. Be that as it may, men do not "breed. It is women who "breed." It is women, the world over, who do not have access to friendly priests nor safe contraceptives, who suffer the consequences of the decision of the pope's church to condemn to endless childbearing even when their lives are at stake; even when they can not feed the children they already have. These are the women who struggle to be faithful to the only religion that they know.
Bruni's mother may or may not have encountered a "friendly" priest, I don't know, nor quite frankly does he. I have heard from women who were told by their doctors that another pregnancy would be fatal and priests who told them that they would go "straight to heaven" if they died in child birth. And not to worry about their left behind children, the Blessed Mother would take care of them.. I never saw the Blessed Mother in the streets of Bogota or the poor barrios of Latin America.
4
The Pope will say anything to ensure that wealthy first world Catholics continue to fund the church.
2
Dogmatic rules on contraception are probably the most intrusive, manipulative and dysfunctional. These religious rules go to the very heart of our humanity: our ability to choose to procreate, to plan, to organize our families. It attempts to get in bed with us and watch and control that. It's rude and immoral, enough to turn any rational thinker against a church or religion. The pope is right to address this, and hopefully many other archaic rules (gay marriage, women priests), before people just look at church leadership as Mickey Mouse leaders, dressed up in costumes to give a speech and stage tradition for the kids. Because the adults will see through the nonsense, nod their heads and smile at the "dogma", but teach their kids something completely opposite.
4
I think life at the top is a real learning experience for this Pope. He is too real not to blurt out these faux pas. Of course Catholics have always been encouraged to generously increase the ranks of the faithful; what was he thinking to have said such a thing about 'breeding.' He wasn't thinking, at least not politically; he was speaking again with love from the heart. I hope he always speaks thoughtlessly from the heart, because he has natural goodness, reinforced by a lifetime as a Jesuit. May this Pope never become the political animal all the others have been. If he is minding his tongue a year from now, the world will be a poorer place for it.
3
When you start to think for yourself about one issue--if only out of practical necessity--you tend to then think for yourself about other issues.
How beautiful that the majority of American Catholics, who decided in favor of contraceptives, expanded their horizons to also favor gay marriage.
It reminded me of the time I (a non-Catholic) stayed at a Dominican retreat center in New Mexico. When I knocked on the door of the main house to check in, I saw something I never dreamt I'd find there.
"You've got a mezuzah on your doorpost!" I exclaimed, the moment a nun opened the door to me.
"Yes," she smiled, "we have them on all our doorposts. When we opened this center, we had an old rabbi come and put them up."
"But why would *you* have mezuzahs on your doorposts?" I asked in astonishment.
Her smile vanished and she looked at me very seriously. "God is not a Catholic," she said firmly.
Why would I listen to anything a Pope (very much including Francis) says after that? And so, when Popes proclaim that as a gay I'm disordered, unnatural, an ideological threat to the family because I support same-sex marriage, etc., their words evaporate at once. And in their place is something I know to be true:
"God is not a heterosexual."
Thank you, Sister.
How beautiful that the majority of American Catholics, who decided in favor of contraceptives, expanded their horizons to also favor gay marriage.
It reminded me of the time I (a non-Catholic) stayed at a Dominican retreat center in New Mexico. When I knocked on the door of the main house to check in, I saw something I never dreamt I'd find there.
"You've got a mezuzah on your doorpost!" I exclaimed, the moment a nun opened the door to me.
"Yes," she smiled, "we have them on all our doorposts. When we opened this center, we had an old rabbi come and put them up."
"But why would *you* have mezuzahs on your doorposts?" I asked in astonishment.
Her smile vanished and she looked at me very seriously. "God is not a Catholic," she said firmly.
Why would I listen to anything a Pope (very much including Francis) says after that? And so, when Popes proclaim that as a gay I'm disordered, unnatural, an ideological threat to the family because I support same-sex marriage, etc., their words evaporate at once. And in their place is something I know to be true:
"God is not a heterosexual."
Thank you, Sister.
10
If anyone can save the Catholic Church from becoming totally irrelevant, it is Pope Francis. I am an atheist. I like and respect this man.
2
Perhaps not on an individual level, but certainly on a societal level, the most tangible results of legalized and freely-available contraception have been a dramatic increase in promiscuity and an equally dramatic collapse of birth rates. I would argue that its likely, thought perhaps not provable, that the availability of contraception has also contributed to the rise in unwed childbearing (since the absence of a child is no longer evidence in favor of a person's chastity), and the decline of marriage (because what was once available only within the confines of matrimony is now obtainable with ease outside it). In the United States, we've gone from being a society where marriage usually occurred before the 24th birthday and where the average family had between three and four children, to being a society where you're lucky to marry before thirty, and where the average family has well fewer than two children. From a societal standpoint, it simply is not sustainable for two parents to give birth to 1.8 children without serious negative consequences.
Do we really want to say its perfectly good and fine for healthy, stable, otherwise faithful individuals to go out and get all the consequence-free sex they can, without ever bringing a family to fruition? Or limiting the size of that family to only one or two children?
Do we really want to say its perfectly good and fine for healthy, stable, otherwise faithful individuals to go out and get all the consequence-free sex they can, without ever bringing a family to fruition? Or limiting the size of that family to only one or two children?
2
Yes, some of us do. Controlling the size of the human population is crucial to our survival as a species. The collapse in birth rate will be painful in the short run and positive over the long haul.
These changes come with their own problems: It's a good thing to get away from patriarchal dominance, but what shape the modern and future family will take is real and very important. Single parenthood, particularly in a society that does not support families all that much, is not an ideal if widespread. But there are other ways of raising children than in traditional families. My guess is that the traditional family will continue, but other forms will arise, such as something modeled on the Israeli kibbutz.
As for sex: I think the fact that it is so deeply wired into us and provides so much pleasure -- even can be compulsive -- argues for purposes other than the narrow one of breeding. Everything gets meaning only in context. Sex without procreation is fine, in my book, and does not have to be the harbinger of armageddon.
These changes come with their own problems: It's a good thing to get away from patriarchal dominance, but what shape the modern and future family will take is real and very important. Single parenthood, particularly in a society that does not support families all that much, is not an ideal if widespread. But there are other ways of raising children than in traditional families. My guess is that the traditional family will continue, but other forms will arise, such as something modeled on the Israeli kibbutz.
As for sex: I think the fact that it is so deeply wired into us and provides so much pleasure -- even can be compulsive -- argues for purposes other than the narrow one of breeding. Everything gets meaning only in context. Sex without procreation is fine, in my book, and does not have to be the harbinger of armageddon.
6
How did belief in fairytale's ever gain so much consumerism, power, money, political sway and traction in our world? "God", the most profitable product ever developed!
3
Bruni: "He’s not refashioning doctrine; he’s reassessing the frequency and stridency with which it needs to be flung at people, especially when it contradicts their experience of the world and undercuts their connection to the faith and the church."
Bruni surely and succinctly captures the modus operandi of Pope Francis with this one sentence in his article.
Pope Francis essentially said the same in his interview published in America magazine:" But when we speak about these issues ('issues related to abortion, gay marriage and the use of contraceptive methods'), we have to talk about them in a context. The teaching of the church, for that matter, is clear and I am a son of the church, but it is not necessary to talk about these issues all the time" (http://americamagazine.org/pope-interview.
Is it not this pastoral approach by the Bishop of Rome, Francis, that has made the pope so different from many of the American Catholic bishops, bishops known for their "frequency and stridency" in episcopal statements and preaching on "abortion, gay marriage and the use of contraceptive methods"?
Bruni surely and succinctly captures the modus operandi of Pope Francis with this one sentence in his article.
Pope Francis essentially said the same in his interview published in America magazine:" But when we speak about these issues ('issues related to abortion, gay marriage and the use of contraceptive methods'), we have to talk about them in a context. The teaching of the church, for that matter, is clear and I am a son of the church, but it is not necessary to talk about these issues all the time" (http://americamagazine.org/pope-interview.
Is it not this pastoral approach by the Bishop of Rome, Francis, that has made the pope so different from many of the American Catholic bishops, bishops known for their "frequency and stridency" in episcopal statements and preaching on "abortion, gay marriage and the use of contraceptive methods"?
3
Many commands and/or statements in the Bible are without any clarification or specifics. To “be fruitful and multiply” can be easily understood and appreciated when homo sapiens did not blanket every corner of the planet. In deed, the very survival of small communities depended on proliferation. But, we are not told whether a billion or ten billion humans is sufficient “fruitfulness.” Apparently, the Pope is beginning to appreciate that in addition to a warming planet there is also a concern with population growth. Unfortunately, locked into doctrine better applied to past generations is no longer relevant. Logic is still overshadowed by “out of date” social ethics and long held traditions. The Roman Church could be a leader directing its followers to more progressive values. Like the Congress of the U.S., the Church must deal with conservatives who deny the accelerating changes of our world.
7
Now that it's crystal clear that being 'fruitful and multiplying' is environmental genocide and planetary suicide, it's nice see the Pope inch closer to the urgent reality that contraception, family planning, birth control and population control are about the only thing that will save us from a complete rape of Mother Earth.
There will be no 'God' stepping in to save the deteriorating climate.
For a decade, experts have said that world population will stabilize around nine billion by 2050.
Scientists at the University of Washington and the United Nations recently used a new and better mathematical method to conclude there's an 80% chance that world population – now at 7.29 billion – will not stabilize.
Instead, it will increase to between 9.6 and 12.3 billion by 2100.
The journal Science published these scientists’ work online on September 18, 2014.
http://www.sciencemag.org/content/346/6206/234.abstract
According to the new projections, much of the increase will occur in Africa, where population quadruples from 1.1 billion today to 4 billion by 2100.
One reason is that birth rates in sub-Saharan Africa have not been going down as fast as expected.
There is an 80% chance that the population in Africa - now 1.1 billion - will be between 3.5 billion and 5.1 billion people by 2100.
What the world needs is a massive condom drop, non-stop sex education, and a repudiation of medieval religious and superstitious guidelines to dealing with a scientific emergency.
There will be no 'God' stepping in to save the deteriorating climate.
For a decade, experts have said that world population will stabilize around nine billion by 2050.
Scientists at the University of Washington and the United Nations recently used a new and better mathematical method to conclude there's an 80% chance that world population – now at 7.29 billion – will not stabilize.
Instead, it will increase to between 9.6 and 12.3 billion by 2100.
The journal Science published these scientists’ work online on September 18, 2014.
http://www.sciencemag.org/content/346/6206/234.abstract
According to the new projections, much of the increase will occur in Africa, where population quadruples from 1.1 billion today to 4 billion by 2100.
One reason is that birth rates in sub-Saharan Africa have not been going down as fast as expected.
There is an 80% chance that the population in Africa - now 1.1 billion - will be between 3.5 billion and 5.1 billion people by 2100.
What the world needs is a massive condom drop, non-stop sex education, and a repudiation of medieval religious and superstitious guidelines to dealing with a scientific emergency.
28
I just came from Sunday mass held by an excellent Jesuit theologian and the subject of the homily was what makes Pope Francis tick.
The Pope subscribes to teología del pueblo (theology of the people) not liberation theology as most widely believed.
This theology, which is very Argentinean, is focused on the poor, places emphasis on pastoral work (being among the poor flock) and respects how normal people practice their religion (“popular religion”), among other things.
No wonder the Pope and his statements make sense to normal Catholics like us.
But let’s not get excited here. I seriously doubt the new Pope will officially sanction contraceptives. But like your mother’s priestly encounters in the confessional box, he will not make a big fuss.
The Pope subscribes to teología del pueblo (theology of the people) not liberation theology as most widely believed.
This theology, which is very Argentinean, is focused on the poor, places emphasis on pastoral work (being among the poor flock) and respects how normal people practice their religion (“popular religion”), among other things.
No wonder the Pope and his statements make sense to normal Catholics like us.
But let’s not get excited here. I seriously doubt the new Pope will officially sanction contraceptives. But like your mother’s priestly encounters in the confessional box, he will not make a big fuss.
6
Men who declare themselves celibate are instructing women and men on personal matters of procreation. Priceless.
3
All I know is this: When I married in 1978 at the age of 22, I would have been fine asking a priest to participate in our United Methodist wedding ceremony. Unlike Mr. Bruni's mother, I had no desire whatsoever to convert, and by then my husband was no longer a Cathokic. But it would have made his parents happy.
However, we couldn't find a single priest, even amongst the more liberal, who would do this unless we signed documents asserting that we wouldn't use birth control. Well, that sure wasn't going to happen, and I (then) had too much respect toward clergy to lie to them.
It's a shame that religious institutions (as this is today's topic) are so successful at controlling people. But they certainly are.
However, we couldn't find a single priest, even amongst the more liberal, who would do this unless we signed documents asserting that we wouldn't use birth control. Well, that sure wasn't going to happen, and I (then) had too much respect toward clergy to lie to them.
It's a shame that religious institutions (as this is today's topic) are so successful at controlling people. But they certainly are.
7
My experience was quite different in 1971. Our Catholic, Franciscan chaplain (admittedly at arguably the most liberal Ivy League college) presided at my marriage to a very honest, loving Protestant (whom he knew) in the interdenominational chapel at the university where he also said weekly Mass. No documents to sign; not even any verbal assertions to make or counseling to attend. Just no nuptial Mass, in recognition of potential offense to "the other" family. He apparently did a good job of putting his faith in us and our relationship. Forty-four years later, we are still blissfully married and quite active in our respective churches. Thank you Fr. Howie!
1
I have some sympathy for Francis. It's not easy to promote change without putting something new in place of the old. I think that Christ recommended love in place of legalistic weighing and measuring of behavior. But few know how love may be experienced and expressed, and so they're more comfortable with the old, old precepts.
Contraception and abortion were forbidden in primitive times when infant mortality was high and when villages needed more hunters and gatherers. Later, farmers needed help in their old age, and the tribal chief and feudal lords needed men to fight. Homosexuality was abhorrent under the same rubric—gay relationships produce no new soldiers or farmers.
How can Francis express that? Even if he can, the faithful won’t have a clue what he’s talking about. Well, Frankly, it goes with the job.
.
Contraception and abortion were forbidden in primitive times when infant mortality was high and when villages needed more hunters and gatherers. Later, farmers needed help in their old age, and the tribal chief and feudal lords needed men to fight. Homosexuality was abhorrent under the same rubric—gay relationships produce no new soldiers or farmers.
How can Francis express that? Even if he can, the faithful won’t have a clue what he’s talking about. Well, Frankly, it goes with the job.
.
2
Post birth abandonment of deformed babies has been practiced for all of human history.
2
You are faced with the same difficulty that is likely to destroy the Church if Pope Francis is not just the first of many. In the eyes of the Church your mother is of questionable character. You, of course, know your mother and know it is not true.
When the education and culture in the third world starts to catch up with the West this confusion will start to erode the faith of sons and daughters.
When the education and culture in the third world starts to catch up with the West this confusion will start to erode the faith of sons and daughters.
1
A dear friend tells a great story on this topic. After their second child was born, her mother wanted to resume using birth control, but her husband, a devout Catholic, resisted. My friend's mother said, "You can sin by using birth control or by being divorced. Your choice." Fortunately, he made the right choice!
2
Re Miriam: as cosmic genius Stephen Hawking has said: Religions are fairy tales for adults. Amen.
3
Pope Francis is a breath of fresh air, but not yet on a par with Pope John XXIII of the 60s who was universally admired.
Please, you have no real understanding of the Catholic faith and its teachings on sexuality. To suggest its 'attitude' is anti women tells us you are another anti Catholic brasher. A'war on women' follower. Francis' bad choice of words is forgivable, he is learning an important lesson most Pope's initially do, that being those off the cuff remarks will be exploited by the media to be but another attempt to discredit the Catholic faith. The idea that you can make 'truth' practical, is one step from moral relativism, which is the disease of modern secularism.
2
What priests said to your Mom, Frank, ignore Rome, forget the pope, was the Catholic Grand Bargain, observed even by arch conservatives who all used birth control. Rome kept up the illusion of unchanging doctrine, parish priests confided that Pope Copperfield hadn't made the Brooklyn Bridge disappear.
This Pope disturbs that hypocritical balancing act. By bringing the two worlds together, he is in effect saying that the Bridge didn't disappear, but on the other hand it did.
Or perhaps he is winking at his flock and saying simply that too many folks would spontaneously combust if Popes changed doctrines, but the urgent requirement to attend to the suffering and marginalized is what really never changes.
This Pope disturbs that hypocritical balancing act. By bringing the two worlds together, he is in effect saying that the Bridge didn't disappear, but on the other hand it did.
Or perhaps he is winking at his flock and saying simply that too many folks would spontaneously combust if Popes changed doctrines, but the urgent requirement to attend to the suffering and marginalized is what really never changes.
2
With so many religions to choose from today, why don't people who are so upset with Catholic teachings join one of those. As a previous poster said most Protestant religions are very lenient and would welcome them with open arms. The Catholic Church is unique and beloved by many. We do not have to beg for members as many enter our faith willingly and joyfully. This is the year of evangelicalism and we are making great strides within our Catholic faith. We continue to grow and flourish and most of us are very happy Catholics.
2
I am not a Catholic but I taught at a Catholic boarding school and became close friends with many priests and brothers. I was fascinated with the birth control issue. I asked a priest who counseled married couples what he told them when they needed to control how many babies they brought into this world. He said they gave permission to use birth control with a wink and a nod.
For years and years the pope has said birth control is forbidden while the priests have turned around and told the parishioners just do it anyhow. This has always seemed dishonest and schizophrenic to me. The Catholics I know say that is what confession is for.
For me, I will remain untethered to any religion where celebrate childless old men tell women what to do with their bodies.
For years and years the pope has said birth control is forbidden while the priests have turned around and told the parishioners just do it anyhow. This has always seemed dishonest and schizophrenic to me. The Catholics I know say that is what confession is for.
For me, I will remain untethered to any religion where celebrate childless old men tell women what to do with their bodies.
8
I wonder why I never see anything in print about a commission formed during Paul VI pontificate to study the RC position on birth control. It's finding were never announced and many people think that the conclusions favorable to allowing contraception were suppressed by conservatives in the Roman Curia.
Here are two remarks from a "scientist":
1/ Italy is a mostly Catholic country. The number of children (per woman) is less than two. Do we suggest that Italian women do not have sex? (Even in Italy, men don't get pregnant.)
2/ Only a hundred years ago or so, we humans had to have as many children as we could to keep up our population. A large portion of babies and children never grew up. Since then we have clean water, vaccination and (mostly) enough to eat. The HISTORIC result is that our children grow up and we adjusted by having fewer children.
As they say contraception, shmontraception...
1/ Italy is a mostly Catholic country. The number of children (per woman) is less than two. Do we suggest that Italian women do not have sex? (Even in Italy, men don't get pregnant.)
2/ Only a hundred years ago or so, we humans had to have as many children as we could to keep up our population. A large portion of babies and children never grew up. Since then we have clean water, vaccination and (mostly) enough to eat. The HISTORIC result is that our children grow up and we adjusted by having fewer children.
As they say contraception, shmontraception...
3
The vastly more complicated modern world takes much more education to understand, too, and education is very expensive.
If Francis is sincere in his statements regarding using pastoral guidance in family planning, then he should instruct his American bishops to halt in their opposition to the ACA and it's inclusion of birth control in it's mandate. He should in fact, as a matter of social justice encourage a push toward universal coverage with a single payer plan. Or instruct his bishops that if they want to hold on so tightly to their religious beliefs, to at the very least, be honest and refuse payment from the government, putting their money firmly where their mouths are.
6
Stodgy old men who have never had to face the realities and duties of raising a family are demeaning the rational decisions of those who have. Couples understand their needs and have the intelligence to react accordingly. The Church attributes to them the intelligence of bunnies and wants to keep them in a cage. The faithful deserve more respect.
3
Italy, Catholic country with one of the world's lowest birthrates. Italians' reputation for passion? Need we wonder what else is in that bedroom? I don't think too many thoughts of Church doctrine. Most people tend to think with their pockets and this is especially evident after the rise of the pill, ironically, developed to regulate women's monthly cycles to increase the likelihood of pregnancy. Hmmm.
4
I like the thinking. A little inconsistency is not necessarily a bad thing.
We humans are trying to make work the order required by a social structure that natural conflicts with the natural disorder of nature (well, at the level of contraception, anyway)
We humans are trying to make work the order required by a social structure that natural conflicts with the natural disorder of nature (well, at the level of contraception, anyway)
If you think about it, the Catholic ban on contraception hurt men over time just as much as women. Men had to weigh a few minutes of pleasure against the very real possibility of a lifetime of expense and responsibility via another child.
If religious men really wanted to control women, they'd make premarital sex and contraception mandatory because men would benefit the most from these norms.
If religious men really wanted to control women, they'd make premarital sex and contraception mandatory because men would benefit the most from these norms.
4
Another interesting story is "Deliver Us...a religious cult vs Richmond, NH." Amazon. "Catholics" thumbing their noses at all religious and secular law to get their own way in a small rural town. Fascinating what religion can do to those who "lead" and those who "follow."
Be rational, kick religion.
5
We have a wonderful Parrish priest. Realistic. Probably because he has done a lot of counseling of families who have a loved one with alcohol and drug addictions. Just like the Pope, who has served the Poor, he knows that people are basically good and are doing the best they can. As far as your statistics of what percentage of Catholics believe that it is ok to use birth control pills etc. in the last few years our pastor has presided over weddings (pleural) of friends here in our Parrish and in EVERY case the couple had been Iliving together before the wedding. As a priest friend of ours said concerning the days of living apart before marriage, "Forget it, that ship has sailed."
3
The Pope deals with a world of Catholics. He doesn't make his decisions based on the views of American Catholics, which are not representative of the world.
Your arguments are specious.
Your arguments are specious.
2
The 'breeding' like rabbits is just one reason why same-sex marriage should be finally accepted by all.
Same sex couples who often want children adopt the unwanted ones, the ones that mothers were forced to give birth to but couldn't feed, cloth or otherwise care for after birth.
Same sex couples who often want children adopt the unwanted ones, the ones that mothers were forced to give birth to but couldn't feed, cloth or otherwise care for after birth.
8
All any of us can say about it is: it's flat out stupid. And, it is responsible for the over population of poor Catholic countries.
5
Bravo, Papa Francesco!! Bravo! Bravo!
1
The problem is the theology. The problem is always the theology.
7
The Bible says be fruitful and multiple--NOT Exponentiate (grow at an exponential rate)
Exponential growth is a huge problem. It's the monster underlying usury, Ebola and tumors. They grow exponentially. It's the crippling reality behind uncontrolled population growth
Humans don't cope well in the face of things exponential. The best we can do is hope for survival. Family planning is the way to avoid the monster.
Exponential growth is a huge problem. It's the monster underlying usury, Ebola and tumors. They grow exponentially. It's the crippling reality behind uncontrolled population growth
Humans don't cope well in the face of things exponential. The best we can do is hope for survival. Family planning is the way to avoid the monster.
3
It took until late in the previous century for the Roman Catholic Church to admit they were wrong about how the solar system actually worked, so why the concern now about the infallibility of Church Doctrine in regards to contraception. The church has it wrong in all areas of sexuality and needs to recognize that its members and staff our part of humanity. Prohibitions on contraception and celibacy of clergy are arcane concepts that should be abolished. It might make the headlines for a day or two but all in all, society will just shrug and keep moving on about its business. If the church wants to remain relevant it can help control our emulating rabbits as it is a major threat to the existence of humanity.
10
In a world teeming with humans mindlessly destroying the framework of their own and other species' existence, having more than two children seems immoral to me. Actually, no children or 1 child seems like the ethical choice until we can bring ourselves into a sustainable balance with nature. And, that is especially true in the rich countries where each person consumes resources and produces waste at ten or twenty times the rate of people in poor countries.
19
@ Bob, although agreeing with you per se, there is a little mathematic involved in how many children have to be born in advanced nations.
It requires a certain number to later - when in the work force - pay for urgent safety nets, including the retirement benefits of an ever older population.
Through advancing medicine in industrialized countries, people live much longer lives after retirement than ever before.
It requires a certain number to later - when in the work force - pay for urgent safety nets, including the retirement benefits of an ever older population.
Through advancing medicine in industrialized countries, people live much longer lives after retirement than ever before.
1
To Sarah; worrying about sufficient population numbers to care for a retirement group, perpetuates the problem forever. It's a one-generation problem; better to deal with it now. I'm a baby boomer, and I would gladly spend my retirement years in meager existence, if I felt it would reverse over population and the devastation of our natural world.
3
The Pope probably watched the Duggars on TV and had the same horrified reaction as the rest of us.
8
I'm sure you've all heard this joke, but Bruni did the set up:
What do you call a couple who uses the "Rhythm Method?"
Parents
Ba-dum-dum crash
What do you call a couple who uses the "Rhythm Method?"
Parents
Ba-dum-dum crash
5
How many times has the Catholic church been told it is not adapting to modernity in its nearly 2000 years?
And how did advocates of women arrive at "control over our bodies" as the best defense of birth control, juxtaposed against a "celibate" Rome? Women who were "baby factories" are now more commonly objectified.
Birth control has numerable benefits, but is has not been a pure good for women. First, in its most common form, the pill, it bathes the same women in additional estrogen who rightly object to added hormones in foods, because those hormones are linked to cancer. Second, it has actually reduced "choice" for women, ensuring that they alone must guard their bodies. As a result, and by the sexual behavior of all women in recreational mating, higher sexual activity is the table stakes to remain competitive when dating men. What was once their power, in mate selection, has lost its edge; and it has decoupled men from the risk of paternity, leaving women alone in their self-protection.
The Liberal battle cry is that Conservatives want to take away their birth control. Nothing could be further from the truth (the far corners of the faithful are cheap grist for Liberal recruiting propaganda). Men are enjoying too much freedom to ever lock the pill away. So with that assurance, women should collectively focus their time and attention on whether the additional risk of cancer has been worth the freedom.
That is what feminism left women. I guess it's modernity.
And how did advocates of women arrive at "control over our bodies" as the best defense of birth control, juxtaposed against a "celibate" Rome? Women who were "baby factories" are now more commonly objectified.
Birth control has numerable benefits, but is has not been a pure good for women. First, in its most common form, the pill, it bathes the same women in additional estrogen who rightly object to added hormones in foods, because those hormones are linked to cancer. Second, it has actually reduced "choice" for women, ensuring that they alone must guard their bodies. As a result, and by the sexual behavior of all women in recreational mating, higher sexual activity is the table stakes to remain competitive when dating men. What was once their power, in mate selection, has lost its edge; and it has decoupled men from the risk of paternity, leaving women alone in their self-protection.
The Liberal battle cry is that Conservatives want to take away their birth control. Nothing could be further from the truth (the far corners of the faithful are cheap grist for Liberal recruiting propaganda). Men are enjoying too much freedom to ever lock the pill away. So with that assurance, women should collectively focus their time and attention on whether the additional risk of cancer has been worth the freedom.
That is what feminism left women. I guess it's modernity.
5
1700 years, dating from the Nicene Council. That's when Christianity was edited and rewritten to make it the Roman Empire's state religion.
3
@Steve
Exactly right. And when my frustration with Catholic behavior or Evangelical failures or any number of things can stand no more, I go into a quiet place and read the Scriptures for myself.
I have not read much to top the wisdom contained in Christ's words. If they do not reach you, and you reject his divinty, there are a million other worldviews on offer. Take your pick.
I think that was the response you sought. I know that my post-Reformation faith had to crawl through Rome. But I don't think it compromised our modern eyes' ability to see the truth in the original writings from Hebrew and Greek.
If I personally saw a Catholic priest harming someone, I hope I would have the strength to intervene. They have committed some grievous misjudgments, no question.
Exactly right. And when my frustration with Catholic behavior or Evangelical failures or any number of things can stand no more, I go into a quiet place and read the Scriptures for myself.
I have not read much to top the wisdom contained in Christ's words. If they do not reach you, and you reject his divinty, there are a million other worldviews on offer. Take your pick.
I think that was the response you sought. I know that my post-Reformation faith had to crawl through Rome. But I don't think it compromised our modern eyes' ability to see the truth in the original writings from Hebrew and Greek.
If I personally saw a Catholic priest harming someone, I hope I would have the strength to intervene. They have committed some grievous misjudgments, no question.
You cite a survey of Americans as the basis for the Pope's statements in conservative Catholic countries. Your analysis is specious. It is more likely the Pope is just a loose cannon, a kook.
Thank you for this column. American Catholics who ignore the church teaching on contraception should remember that Catholic women in other countries don't all have the same easy freedom to make that choice.
56
The way things are going in this country, American Catholic women, and American women in general, soon won't have the "easy freedom to make that choice", as Catholic health care systems swallow up whole swaths of our population and disallow family planning services within their facilities. All enabled by federal health care dollars.
4
Yes, Francis speaks with such refreshing honesty. I admired his comments about corruption: that he wanted to kick someone where the sun never shines as another examples of how real this man is.
Welcome the real ones and not the fake immitations.
Welcome the real ones and not the fake immitations.
2
"He sounded then like any old pope." Because in spite the hope of his early Papacy that is probably all he is--another old pope. Sadly history has proven that the office more often changes the man than man changes the office.
23
Once one believes that a virgin birth is possible, why does birth control even matter?
8
Yes, he is wildly practical.. It's also business. The Catholic Church will continue to bleed members if,they do not adopt to the realities of their members today, and pope Francis knows this. As quaint as he appears, he is also shrewd and is in charge of a very large enterprise that he has been entrusted to keep alive and relevant.
35
I am sorry but this is a Pope who may talk the talk but you will be waiting forever to see him walk the walk. Your optimism is ill founded he is never going to change his stance on birth control, ordination of women, priest marrying or same sex marriage. Please note that the Gallup survey and interpretation is similar to a survey made of young adults who received absence only sex education. While they did wait a little longer before premarital sex they had a higher incidence of pregnancies and Venereal Disease. Perhaps the out of touch a particular teaching the greater likelihood that it will result in the opposite. The churches stand on bothe birth control and abortion may actually increasing it. Good going church.
1
Now a word about Papal Infallibility. Implicit before then "the solemn declaration of papal infallibility by Vatican I took place on 18 July 1870." - Wikipedia. Not all that long ago in church time.
Regardless, there is a lot to like about Pope Francis in his efforts to restore some of the spirit of the New Testament.
Regardless, there is a lot to like about Pope Francis in his efforts to restore some of the spirit of the New Testament.
It's ironic to see this article published on the same day that the Times Magazine published an article on a woman who provides sex instruction for orthodox Jewish women, many of whom don't even have a clue to how their bodies work and their own rights to pleasure in married life.
3
Poor Mr. Bruni! What will he think when it turns out that, at the end of the day, Francis turns out to be "any old Pope", as he so disrespectfully puts it?
Because he will, thanks be to God (and I am not a Catholic).
Frank, go back to your ma's Methodism-- it already agrees with you. The Catholic Church never will.
Because he will, thanks be to God (and I am not a Catholic).
Frank, go back to your ma's Methodism-- it already agrees with you. The Catholic Church never will.
5
I believe this youthful, delightful, authentic Pope Francis is a master at using what appears to be "Freudian Slips." These slips are usually considered verbal mistakes linked to the unconscious mind revealing what's hidden there. Yet, this clever Pope appears to consciously use "slips" to get his more evolved message across while at the same time not ruffling too many feathers. Not breeding like rabbits can say a lot or nothing at all depending on whose listening. After all who can blame someone for a Freudian Slip.
38
Pope Francis has impressed this jaded atheist Jewish lesbian. But if he really cares about income inequality, and our obligation to care for our planet, then he has a moral obligation to do more than make rabbit-breeding quips in airplanes. Providing cost effective Access to contraception and family planning is an extraordinarily powerful way to address poverty at the source. If the Pope moved the Church forward on this, it would be his crowning achievement, and would have an immediate impact on women and families across the globe!
109
"family planning is an extraordinarily powerful way to address poverty at the source"
Are babies are the cause of poverty or is it the tax codes?
The top 10% have 75% of the $83 trillion in family wealth. The poorer half of the population lost 70% of their wealth over the last 20 years in spite of food stamps, child credits, earned income credits and other benefits. This half represents 62 million families and shares just one percent of the wealth.
One solution may be to limit the children of the poor but another solution would be tax reform that increased the wealth of the poor from 1% to 5% so they could support a family. If the top 10% had just 71% of the wealth instead of 75% they would not even miss it.
Pope Frances wrote about the "Economy of the Excluded" and clearly believes that economics should not be used to prevent family formation and children for those who want to procreate.
Are babies are the cause of poverty or is it the tax codes?
The top 10% have 75% of the $83 trillion in family wealth. The poorer half of the population lost 70% of their wealth over the last 20 years in spite of food stamps, child credits, earned income credits and other benefits. This half represents 62 million families and shares just one percent of the wealth.
One solution may be to limit the children of the poor but another solution would be tax reform that increased the wealth of the poor from 1% to 5% so they could support a family. If the top 10% had just 71% of the wealth instead of 75% they would not even miss it.
Pope Frances wrote about the "Economy of the Excluded" and clearly believes that economics should not be used to prevent family formation and children for those who want to procreate.
2
Conservatives who oppose the use of birth control need to explain what they think is beneficial about forcing people to have children they don't want.
13
No one is against the use of birth control except Catholics and only then bc Rome tells them so.
Most conservatives, however, do oppose abortion and abortion pills. They consider abortion murder. Despite this, abortion is legal and has been legal for decades. No one is stopping a woman from getting an abortion.
Additionally, most Americans do not consider abortion/abortion pills to be birth control. They don't buy the lie that anyone is being denied birth control or abortions simply because abortions/abortion pills are not free and handed out on street corners.
Most conservatives, however, do oppose abortion and abortion pills. They consider abortion murder. Despite this, abortion is legal and has been legal for decades. No one is stopping a woman from getting an abortion.
Additionally, most Americans do not consider abortion/abortion pills to be birth control. They don't buy the lie that anyone is being denied birth control or abortions simply because abortions/abortion pills are not free and handed out on street corners.
1
@Honeybee: Most anti-abortion organizations in this country are also are on the record as opposing birth control. They think it encourages people to have "consequence-free sex."
And pretending that birth control pills cause abortions doesn't make it so.
And pretending that birth control pills cause abortions doesn't make it so.
2
Love the title.
Hope the Mr. Bruni's mother doesn't read her son's column.
Hope the Mr. Bruni's mother doesn't read her son's column.
Pope Francis is a sensible, modern pope fettered by medieval church doctrine.
53
Actually, most of the really bizarre and absurd social pronouncements of the church are modern, not medieval.
2
HUMMM -- I personally am insulted by hints that medieval church doctrine have created problems The church has evolved through the centuries, through church councils, and the church in the early modern period aka the Renaissance -- really WOW.
Still, I like Pope Francis.
Still, I like Pope Francis.
Haiku
"Breeding like rabbits;"
Is there a lesson in this?
Say, contraception?
"Breeding like rabbits;"
Is there a lesson in this?
Say, contraception?
3
This puts me in mind of an old riddle.
Q. "What is a synonym for the rhythm method of birth control?"
A. "Parents."
No religion changes this enduring condition.
www.endthemadnessnow.org
Q. "What is a synonym for the rhythm method of birth control?"
A. "Parents."
No religion changes this enduring condition.
www.endthemadnessnow.org
3
Let's talk about how this "progressive" Pope, a Franciscan, just advocated violence in response to insult.
2
In fairness to the Pope, he said that the impulse to punch someone for an insult is human nature. Obviously the church does not advocate succumbing to human nature.
I'm sure the erudite Mr. Bruni must know that primacy of conscience in moral decision making has always been Catholic teaching. And, it's not selective, it applies to all moral decisions including birth control.
PS
PS
2
Pope Francis's comments that Catholics needn't "breed like rabbits" does open the possibility that the Catholic Church may begin reexamining their dogma from the Dark Ages on human sexual behaviors. As the Gallup survey results show, Catholics are not far behind Americans' view on contraception and, in fact, ahead on pre-marital sex and gay & lesbian relationships.
While this may provide some fodder to columnists like Mr. Bruni and lead to and interesting debate that'll last a few days, I'm not that worried because the Gallup results clearly show that the Catholic Church's teachings are being ignored. What is more worrisome is the Republican platform on these same issues. At least for now we have a penman in the White House who'll veto measures such as the "personhood" ones that are popping up at the state levels. With the Hobby Lobby case behind us and the SCOTUS set to decide on a few other related issues, I'm concerned that America will be sent back to the Stone Ages even as we send probes to explore Mars and beyond. And that, to me, is far far more worrisome that the words escaping from the mouth of Pope Francis.
While this may provide some fodder to columnists like Mr. Bruni and lead to and interesting debate that'll last a few days, I'm not that worried because the Gallup results clearly show that the Catholic Church's teachings are being ignored. What is more worrisome is the Republican platform on these same issues. At least for now we have a penman in the White House who'll veto measures such as the "personhood" ones that are popping up at the state levels. With the Hobby Lobby case behind us and the SCOTUS set to decide on a few other related issues, I'm concerned that America will be sent back to the Stone Ages even as we send probes to explore Mars and beyond. And that, to me, is far far more worrisome that the words escaping from the mouth of Pope Francis.
11
By addressing family size, Pope Francis is weighing one consideration against others, just like Catholic followers do. The prohibition on "artificial" contraception runs up against concerns for hunger and poverty, if people create children they cannot provide for, environmental stewardship for places with unsustainable population growth, as well as discomfort with abortion, since birth control is an apparent way of avoiding pregnancy termination.
2
This Pope cannot get away with words only. He has to make real changes or he will lose all credibility. Everybody knows that actions speak louder than words.
2
Being one of those mothers who had children from the late 50s to the late 70s, and many hard times, it hurts to be called a "rabbit" so many years later. Although my children get a kick out of the remark, I am sure.
Peggy
Peggy
3
Maybe the Pope should have said that we do not need to breed in a manner that is threatening to other people, since we are both more aggressive and less stupid than rabbits.
4
You can believe whatever you want, but stop referencing the rythm method, no one in the Catholic Church has used that term for 40 years, it's natural family planning or the thermal method, and it's more effective and safe than the pill, period
1
I prefer the term Antonin Scalia used on "60 Minutes" when he explained why he and his wife had so many children: "Vatican roulette."
2
Mr. Bruni should clarify that there are more forms of natural family planning than the old rhythm method. Many are extremely effective. Moreover, it's becoming quite trendy with the development of apps that take out much of the work of tracking.
1
I agree - his take on this is outdated. There really aren't that many days of the month during which you can get pregnant. I don't know where this notion that the church expects abstinence is coming from.
1
I wish religions of every stripe would limit themselves to teaching The Golden Rule.
In my "religion," there are no Silver Rules nor any Bronze Rules, just the "Golden" one, the one which makes your heart precious. And the one which helps to make all the other hearts around you precious too.
So if doing, feeling or thinking it FEELS right in your heart and if you believe you have exercised your heart every day of your life (and exorcised from your heart the fear and hate and judgment which otherwise seem to infect our human hearts), then GO FOR IT.
Everything else are either details or pointless.
In my "religion," there are no Silver Rules nor any Bronze Rules, just the "Golden" one, the one which makes your heart precious. And the one which helps to make all the other hearts around you precious too.
So if doing, feeling or thinking it FEELS right in your heart and if you believe you have exercised your heart every day of your life (and exorcised from your heart the fear and hate and judgment which otherwise seem to infect our human hearts), then GO FOR IT.
Everything else are either details or pointless.
2
What do men who have taken a vow of celibacy know about the lives of husbands and wives? Not much. They should just shut up.
8
I like this Pope. He’s the Barack Obama of Vatican City. He seems real enough and good with expressing obliquely what he wants to say. Congress, the Curia, and assorted cranky professional opposers then attempt to tamp down and reframe what has been said while muttering maligning innuendo.
But the Pope and the President, outsiders both, stand for something new and exciting. They are not the background nay-sayers. They are speakers of important language. Their words are heard, if not acted on. And despite what we might think, words, especially good words, matter.
But the Pope and the President, outsiders both, stand for something new and exciting. They are not the background nay-sayers. They are speakers of important language. Their words are heard, if not acted on. And despite what we might think, words, especially good words, matter.
5
"Had the Pleistocene savanna contained trees bearing birth-control pills, we might have evolved to find them as terrifying as a venomous spider."
Steven Pinker. How the Mind Works. New York: W. W. Norton & Company, 1997.
The anti-contraception meme in religion is very important for its spread. Parish priests and missionaries preaching birth control would not have served Catholicism's (or its practitioner's) fecundity well. From the standpoint of our selfish genes, we should hope that our neighbors (or religious competition) use birth control very effectively.
Population graphs in Europe and Russia show declines not seen since the various outbreaks of plague swept through Europe. These dramatic declines started after Gregory Pincus invented an easy and highly effective way of preventing children. Everyone offers various altruistic platitudes about preventing the destruction of the planet, but our genes and memes are certainly not altruistic.
Steven Pinker. How the Mind Works. New York: W. W. Norton & Company, 1997.
The anti-contraception meme in religion is very important for its spread. Parish priests and missionaries preaching birth control would not have served Catholicism's (or its practitioner's) fecundity well. From the standpoint of our selfish genes, we should hope that our neighbors (or religious competition) use birth control very effectively.
Population graphs in Europe and Russia show declines not seen since the various outbreaks of plague swept through Europe. These dramatic declines started after Gregory Pincus invented an easy and highly effective way of preventing children. Everyone offers various altruistic platitudes about preventing the destruction of the planet, but our genes and memes are certainly not altruistic.
1
The issues, concerns, and topics religions get caught up in. The mental and verbal judo that religions practice to make collective sense out of a tangled web of myths, biblical text, and church law, must be exhausting--I'm exhausted just reading this article. Feel somewhat sorry for the Pope, who has to participate is these daily judo matches, and who at times is embarrassingly flipped on his back.
4
WHO knows? Pope Francis surely is the best leader the Roman Catholic Church has had in modern times. I wonder....might he (and the church he leads) one day actually come to the conclusion that people actually ENJOY sex? I mean if the lord wanted us to enjoy sex he'd have given us the organs he did to do so, right? As a gay male I pass the church's teachings on contraception in that I don't need to use it. Of course I fail the test as to "with whom" I'm doing it with but I'll take 1 out of 2 for now.
3
It is my understanding that the Catholic Church's prohibition against contraception was originally due to a faulty understanding of the nature of human fertilization. The church once believed (and taught) that all the elements of life was contained within the sperm cell, the egg being merely an incubator of sorts in which the sperm developed on its own. This misunderstanding, which was widely held, led my late Godmother to declare in the 1970's that "contraception is murder." It is this same misunderstanding that was basis for the prohibition against all sexual acts that did not eventually end in conception. (Never mind the fact that when a legally married Catholic couple conceive a child millions of sperm cells die in the process.)
When that misunderstanding was finally put to rest the church quietly shifted its theology of sex to state simply that "all sexual acts must be open to the possibility of life," presumably so that it would never have to admit that it had gotten it wrong before. When I once asked an old priest why the church married people well beyond their child-bearing years if marriage was all about procreation, his response was, "in order to make room for the possibility of a miracle."
Seems to me if that is the justification, then one can justify almost anything under that banner, including the possibility of two men or two women conceiving a child together, or, dare I say it, a virgin birth.
When that misunderstanding was finally put to rest the church quietly shifted its theology of sex to state simply that "all sexual acts must be open to the possibility of life," presumably so that it would never have to admit that it had gotten it wrong before. When I once asked an old priest why the church married people well beyond their child-bearing years if marriage was all about procreation, his response was, "in order to make room for the possibility of a miracle."
Seems to me if that is the justification, then one can justify almost anything under that banner, including the possibility of two men or two women conceiving a child together, or, dare I say it, a virgin birth.
10
The confessional discussion about "the pill" was already over when I was a priest sitting in that booth every Saturday in the early 80s. Parish priests had already let women off the hook just as Frank Bruni describes. Those women told their friends and soon they all came to understand that informed personal choice trumps Rome. Those good priests didn't expect what happened next: everyone stopped going to Confession. I always brought a Truman Capote novel with me into the confessional to pass the time.
14
I am an atheist but I love theology - for the same reason I love science fiction. Catholic theology, in particular, manages to be both highly logical and wildly imaginative, as it tries to reason from unprovable premises. If prohibition on contraception derives from natural law, it is wrong, since as many commenters have pointed out, humans do not engage in sex for procreation only ( as opposed to all other primates, we don't have estrus). Nor does Catholicism embrace the Mormon doctrine of the pre-existence of a certain number of souls that have to be born before the End Times may roll in. Since Catholicism and Protestantism diverged on the issue of predestination (and killed tens of thousands trying to decide whether we are saved by works or by grace), why should not a woman exercise her free will in deciding not to have children? In short, I await a better theological justification for ruining millions of lives by the prohibition on contraception. Perhaps the Pope's quip about rabbits was a parable, whose meaning ("don't be stupid") is left to the future theologians to expand into a treatise on the use of reason in guiding us in the matters of faith.
One can hope!
One can hope!
11
Primacy of conscience - that's the core Catholic teaching.
As a former Baptist, then Methodist, I learned of the Catholic faith as a student at a Jesuit University, where I learned about evolution and ecology and ethics. My religion is a combination of science and Catholicism now. Because of the primacy of conscience and the further belief that no religion can ever be perfect, I was able to convert and firmly believe in living ethically for our fragile planet.
As a former Baptist, then Methodist, I learned of the Catholic faith as a student at a Jesuit University, where I learned about evolution and ecology and ethics. My religion is a combination of science and Catholicism now. Because of the primacy of conscience and the further belief that no religion can ever be perfect, I was able to convert and firmly believe in living ethically for our fragile planet.
1
Our Parish priest tells me that confession is becoming less and less frequent.
Could it be that the average age of those attending mass is well above reproductive age?
Could it be that the average age of those attending mass is well above reproductive age?
12
The Church could easily get around their position on birth control, using the same reasoning they used for the ban - natural law. The assumption has been that sex was intended by God for procreation and therefore survival of the species so interfering with procreation is a violation of natural law and thus sinful.
The Church also recognizes that it is science that reveals the laws of nature. Research makes it clear that for humans sex has a dual purpose. Humans need not only to procreate but also to devote years to raising offspring to ensure their survival. Therefore having both parents engaged in child rearing is also part of natural law. Sex plays an important role in bonding the pair of parents. That is why human female sexual interest is not limited to periods of fertility (I.e., "heat") and the intimacy of face-to-face copulation is normal.
The Pope could simply acknowledge that science has advanced the Church's understanding of natural law and that birth control is more consistent with it than is the forced abstinence of the rhythm method or having unlimited children, both of which strain the pair bond. It is also human nature to assert control over natural processes, not just passively acquiesce. That is what our big brains evolved to do.
it is no violation of natural law for couples to limit the number of children they have. Our brains tell us that our species cannot survive if we don't. Using birth control is therfore entirely consistent with natural law.
The Church also recognizes that it is science that reveals the laws of nature. Research makes it clear that for humans sex has a dual purpose. Humans need not only to procreate but also to devote years to raising offspring to ensure their survival. Therefore having both parents engaged in child rearing is also part of natural law. Sex plays an important role in bonding the pair of parents. That is why human female sexual interest is not limited to periods of fertility (I.e., "heat") and the intimacy of face-to-face copulation is normal.
The Pope could simply acknowledge that science has advanced the Church's understanding of natural law and that birth control is more consistent with it than is the forced abstinence of the rhythm method or having unlimited children, both of which strain the pair bond. It is also human nature to assert control over natural processes, not just passively acquiesce. That is what our big brains evolved to do.
it is no violation of natural law for couples to limit the number of children they have. Our brains tell us that our species cannot survive if we don't. Using birth control is therfore entirely consistent with natural law.
45
I like this pope. It's not enough to make me Catholic but he seems much more reasonable and compassionate. This is a very good piece Frank Bruni. This pope is at least making a contribution to moving the church away from its strident and Inhumane positions impossible for ordinary humans to live with. Male dominance is the church's centerpiece and until that changes it simply will not progress in any hugely significant way.
32
Suffering and Roman Catholicism seem intermixed in a neurotic dance. No problem solving allowed. Too many throw away children in the Philippines, so why not mandate family planning and birth control? Make failing to use reliable modern birth control a mortal sin. We are at a tipping point and either its faithful should walk or the church should grow up. Sever separation of church and state mixed with over population means taxing the non birth control faction should be mandated by the state.
18
My mother, too, converted from Methodist to Catholic to marry my dad at 18 in the 50's. By the time she was 24 she had 4 children and a body so weakened that a strep throat infection settled into her kidneys nearly killing her outright and condemning her to a life of chronic, painful illness that did kill her too soon. Her doctors told her if she were to be pregnant again, the kidney disease she suffered would cause serious birth defects, not a chance a certainty and would kill her.
When it happened, she went to her priest. He threatened to excommunicate her if she used contraception.
My mother pulled all four of us from Sunday school never to return. My mother also prepared the ground for daughters to think and make decisions for themselves not any man, religious authority or not. It is my mothers single greatest legacy to me growing into a young woman, with no mother thanks to the teachings of Catholicism. Amen.
When it happened, she went to her priest. He threatened to excommunicate her if she used contraception.
My mother pulled all four of us from Sunday school never to return. My mother also prepared the ground for daughters to think and make decisions for themselves not any man, religious authority or not. It is my mothers single greatest legacy to me growing into a young woman, with no mother thanks to the teachings of Catholicism. Amen.
140
Don't believe the part about the threat of excommunication. Sinfulness, deliberate separation from the Creator or from others (neighbors), is not grounds for excommunication. The Church teaches that ALL catholics are sinners. If they excommunicate sinners, there will be no one left, not even anyone to do the excommunicating. Most priests and most Catholics, except former Catholics like Mr. Bruni, do not believe practicing artificial contraception is a serious sin.
"the gateway estrangement", I'll remember (and use) that phase. It describes and explains a whole range of responses. Nobody expects to agree with something 100%, but to be constantly hit in the face does tend to cool off a relationship. I remember in the early 70's the Pope made a comment about women using birth control for immoral purpose (i.e. going out and having sex without getting "caught"). My comment was "that man just called my mother a tramp!". That was the beginning of the end of our relationship.
26
This issue is about far more than contraception and large families. it is about control over women's bodies. If women were accepted as equals, the RC church would be forced to admit that women could be priests in spite of St. Paul and his deep misogeny.
I grew up in an evangelical/fundamentalist Southern Baptist religion. But, strangely enough, very much like the Roman Catholic Church which was the "devil" to my grandparents and their peers, they both had the same attitude about one thing.
Sex and sin were synonymous.
It was the sin of all sins the worst.
What I've never understood about most religions is why sex is the most important issue (and it does seem to be to the Abrahamic ones) before feeding the poor, clothing the naked, housing the homeless, succoring the ill and dying.
I grew up in an evangelical/fundamentalist Southern Baptist religion. But, strangely enough, very much like the Roman Catholic Church which was the "devil" to my grandparents and their peers, they both had the same attitude about one thing.
Sex and sin were synonymous.
It was the sin of all sins the worst.
What I've never understood about most religions is why sex is the most important issue (and it does seem to be to the Abrahamic ones) before feeding the poor, clothing the naked, housing the homeless, succoring the ill and dying.
191
Because women could change the course of evolution if they could choose the fathers of their children.
2
Because sex is the foundation of society. It is, biologically, the primary reason we seek out relationships, and the children it produces (or should produce) are necessary to continue to carry society forward in the future.
Again......in this country, which isn't necessarily a bad archetype for the developed world, we have a birth rate of just 1.86 children over the lifetime of a woman, yet we have an unwed childbearing rate of 45%. You can't understand those facts, and their likely consequences, and see it as anything other than a crisis for our future.
Again......in this country, which isn't necessarily a bad archetype for the developed world, we have a birth rate of just 1.86 children over the lifetime of a woman, yet we have an unwed childbearing rate of 45%. You can't understand those facts, and their likely consequences, and see it as anything other than a crisis for our future.
I believe the Abrahamic obsessions with reproduction stem from animal husbandry. The men of the region began to understand a few things about reproduction from breeding animals and became obsessed with control of "their" women.
You will note that in Judaism, the religion of the child is defined by the religion of the mother. There is never ANY doubt as to who the mother is. This small little sliver of practicality exists in the religion to this day. If only other Abrahamic practices were so practical...
Could we just start by agreeing that no human belongs to another? That no human, male or female, should be regarded as property? That would solve a lot of problems.
You will note that in Judaism, the religion of the child is defined by the religion of the mother. There is never ANY doubt as to who the mother is. This small little sliver of practicality exists in the religion to this day. If only other Abrahamic practices were so practical...
Could we just start by agreeing that no human belongs to another? That no human, male or female, should be regarded as property? That would solve a lot of problems.
5
My view is that all of the Abrahamic religions, especially in their more fundamental versions, consider sexual relations as a component of original sin. Yielding only to the necessity of sex for procreation of the species, the religious authorities put up a variety of proscriptions against sexual relations that manifest in such concepts as the "immaculate conception", after all Jesus couldn't start life with a sinful act; celibate clergy; use of contraception other than abstinence; induced abortion; condemnation of homosexuality; condemnation of masturbation; and many more. Pope Francis is well aware of the harmful effects of unbridled human reproduction, but he is in a theological trap: help humanity deal with impending demographic and environmental disaster or sustain the power of the church over the lives of the faithful.
30
Solon Rhode, the "immaculate conception" is that of Mary, not of Jesus. According to Catholic mythology, Mary was the only person in the history of the world to be "conceived without sin" so that she could be a pure vessel for the gestation of the son of god.
1
This comment makes a common mistake. The "immaculate conception" does not refer to Mary's pregnancy, but to the claim that she was born without original sin. It was Mary who was "immaculately conceived," and thus was worthy of being the mother of Jesus.
2
There is no better example of the Catholic church's attitude toward women and contraception than the symphysiotomies (look it up, but brace yourself) that were routinely carried out on women in Ireland right up to the 1960's. This barbaric procedure involving cutting through a woman's pelvic bone usually without anesthesia and often causing a lifetime of corrective surgeries, incontinence and constant pain and was done without the knowledge or consent of the women involved by staunchly Catholic doctors in lieu of simple C-sections in the belief that a C-section would limit them to "only" two children. The survivors are currently seeking redress and compensation through the Irish courts and their testimony is moving and harrowing and will bring you to tears of grief and rage in equal measure. The Catholic hierarchy may venerate Mary, but the reproductive welfare of ordinary women seems of little concern to them.
112
How horrifying! I just looked it up, having never heard of symphysiotomies before. How has this been so hushed up for so long, that it is not common knowledge?
3
It was kept hushed up by the same government and religious authorities that kept the Magdalene Laundries outrage covered up for so long. Maybe someone will make a film about some of these women and the truly criminal treatment they received.
3
My mother also converted to Catholicism, just before my birth, from her Episcopal faith, which she didn't have. My Baptism, she says, was the last time she went to Catholic Church with any sense of urgency. Apparently, I became her representative because she sent me to Catholic school, then got busy having 3 more kids. One day, she broke child-parent protocol and laughingly told me that the rhythm method she practiced with my father was 'up and down on the couch'. It's a vision I tuned out as I faded into obscurity among my older and younger sisters and brothers. I have forensically analyzed my father's income and concluded that he couldn't afford 1 child, let alone the 5 he had. But I am glad he had me although I still wonder if I'd have lived a less impoverished childhood if my parents stopped the baby production after I rolled off the assembly line. I could have had a pet rabbit.
68
That last sentence is priceless!
5
Phooey; nothing is going to change in the Catholic Church. No birth control, no ordination of women, no lifting of celibacy for the clergy.
Prohibiting birth control is anti-life because, as rational people know, if there was more birth control, there would be far fewer abortions. Preventing a pregnancy is not the same as ending a pregnancy.
All religions were invented by rulers millennia ago to compel obedience; there is no other reason for it. The ruler was the direct conduit to the deity, and the deity spoke through the ruler. All the fairy tales, their only purpose is control of the many by the few.
Prohibiting birth control is anti-life because, as rational people know, if there was more birth control, there would be far fewer abortions. Preventing a pregnancy is not the same as ending a pregnancy.
All religions were invented by rulers millennia ago to compel obedience; there is no other reason for it. The ruler was the direct conduit to the deity, and the deity spoke through the ruler. All the fairy tales, their only purpose is control of the many by the few.
152
The Pope spoke frankly --despite the trappings of Catholic teaching. Which is, even with the less than efficient means of contraception approved, parents should be mindful of the number of children they have. This is actually a change. This is actually the Pope asking his followers to limit the size of their families --for the sake of their children, of the planet, and of the family.
The comparison to rabbits might be unfortunate, but direct, and most people got it. This, as limited as it is to those who wish the Church would move away from its stance, is actual movement. No longer can a husband ask a wife to pleasure him and self-deceive himself of being a good Catholic. The Pope has made it explicit, even to plain Catholics, that family planning is the Catholic thing to do.
Minimal movement, perhaps, but movement nonetheless.
The comparison to rabbits might be unfortunate, but direct, and most people got it. This, as limited as it is to those who wish the Church would move away from its stance, is actual movement. No longer can a husband ask a wife to pleasure him and self-deceive himself of being a good Catholic. The Pope has made it explicit, even to plain Catholics, that family planning is the Catholic thing to do.
Minimal movement, perhaps, but movement nonetheless.
26
All religions are based on theistic beliefs, written by primitive men, usually ignorant and prejudiced, as attested in their 'holy books'. They are dogmatic as well, hence, unable to change and accommodate to modern societies' needs. And forbidding contraception is one of them. Once people become educated, they are less and less willing to suspend reason for a doctrine demanding blind faith in 'teachings' that do not make much sense. Pope Francis is, no doubt, a decent and honest man, but assigned to do the impossible, transmit infallibility to his preaching. And we have empiric evidence that most Catholics do ignore the prohibition in using 'the pill'.
53
The Catholic church is ok with Americans and other 1st world Catholics ignoring official doctrine, because they seem to hang around anyway, mostly out of a "cultural connection" to the faith. (I figure this will decline once the disapproving grandmothers gradually disappear.)
But the real reason the church doesn't change is that high birthrates are the main driver for the continuation of the church. If the world's Catholics stop having as many children, the church will lose power. And, of course, that's what it's all about.
But the real reason the church doesn't change is that high birthrates are the main driver for the continuation of the church. If the world's Catholics stop having as many children, the church will lose power. And, of course, that's what it's all about.
80
"Was he signaling an imminent change in church teaching, or was he merely getting carried away with comparisons and colloquialisms, as he tends to do?"
He was being the parish priest like the ones your mother talked with. That connection is one of the best things about this Pope. I hope he lasts a long time, and we get used to this.
He was being the parish priest like the ones your mother talked with. That connection is one of the best things about this Pope. I hope he lasts a long time, and we get used to this.
59
As a Calvinist- non subscribing, I can not understand why all the Catholics with the beliefs they have on birth control and other issues are not Episcopalians.
They could do 'a modified vatican rag-aka the Mass' with birth control and women priests, since great majorities favor both per this article.
Upcoming is the 500th anniversary in 2017 of the most critical moment in modern European history--the Protestant Reformation. It transformed northern Europe, freeing the people to advance themselves, advance Science, educate themselves and make a better life for their people and take control of much of the whole world--especially in the Anglo-Saxon lands where great changes occurred. Freedom and Responsibility, not listening to church dogma from Popes & Cardinals removed from life, build a better world for those people and overtime for many in the world.
They could do 'a modified vatican rag-aka the Mass' with birth control and women priests, since great majorities favor both per this article.
Upcoming is the 500th anniversary in 2017 of the most critical moment in modern European history--the Protestant Reformation. It transformed northern Europe, freeing the people to advance themselves, advance Science, educate themselves and make a better life for their people and take control of much of the whole world--especially in the Anglo-Saxon lands where great changes occurred. Freedom and Responsibility, not listening to church dogma from Popes & Cardinals removed from life, build a better world for those people and overtime for many in the world.
102
There are an awful lot on non Catholics adhering to religious dogma and ignoring science and most of them seem to vote Republican.
5
Not listening to church dogma? Tell that to the eveangelical wing of the protestant church.
2
Yes, true, but Martin Luther certainly did not expect women to be free, nor he believed them to be responsible. His equating women with the devil was, even at that time, far too much for most to countenance.... In fact, without the temperance of venerating the Virgin, Protestant thought easily exceeded the misogyny of Rome. For example,
"The word and works of God is quite clear, that women were made either to be wives or prostitutes." –Martin Luther, Reformer (1483-1546), Works 12.94
"No gown worse becomes a woman than the desire to be wise." –Martin Luther, Reformer (1483-1546)
"Men have broad and large chests, and small narrow hips, and more understanding than women, who have but small and narrow breasts, and broad hips, to the end they should remain at home, sit still, keep house, and bear and bring up children." –Martin Luther, Reformer (1483-1546), Table Talk
See http://valerietarico.com/2013/07/01/mysogynistquoteschurchfathers/
"The word and works of God is quite clear, that women were made either to be wives or prostitutes." –Martin Luther, Reformer (1483-1546), Works 12.94
"No gown worse becomes a woman than the desire to be wise." –Martin Luther, Reformer (1483-1546)
"Men have broad and large chests, and small narrow hips, and more understanding than women, who have but small and narrow breasts, and broad hips, to the end they should remain at home, sit still, keep house, and bear and bring up children." –Martin Luther, Reformer (1483-1546), Table Talk
See http://valerietarico.com/2013/07/01/mysogynistquoteschurchfathers/
2
As long as human beings believe the notion that they are to dominate, which is expressed in the microcosm as a man dominating his wife and children, our planet will continue to edge toward death. This pope continually emphasizes loving kindness, generosity, care for each other, and a concern for our teetering on the edge of planetary extinction. Without flagrantly throwing doctrine out the window, he is surruptitiously cultivating a shift in attitude. As long as women are regarded as breeders and servants and are (often violently) held to that role in worldly societies, we will tumble toward our end. If every person, Catholic or otherwise, were to follow an examined life that strives toward selflessness and care for all life (not just human), and were to put aside the endless ad nauseum squabbling over things in the larger questions meaningless, we might have a shot at preserving our world for the future. I'm pretty cynical, personally. I don't see people changing even in day-to-day behavior. This pope is being soft on us, while still pursuing what should never have been radical ideas.
110
He's a "wildly practical Pope",
Who real issues will not soft soap,
Delighted that he's
In the Holy See,
And won't give the Billionaires rope.
Who real issues will not soft soap,
Delighted that he's
In the Holy See,
And won't give the Billionaires rope.
19
Nothing will come of this. This Pope will change nothing regarding the RCC's teachings in this area. He's a talker and perhaps a reformer, but he is not a revolutionary. Talk is cheap and subject to the hopes, wishes, and preconceptions of the listener. The RCC is too politically and theologically invested in its current position on contraception. The RCC gains nothing and loses its most loyal and contributing members should it change. How would those people who suffered and believed the RCC respond if they were told to never mind the old rules? If so, the True Believers may finally join the Evangelical churches and the rest might as well be mainline Protestants. The RCC might not survive the fallout. This Pope wishes to put a human face on the RCC and that may be enough. He will most likely work to get rid of the financial and moral corruption but he will leave the rest alone.
17
Contrary to official propaganda, Roman Catholic teachings have changed radically over the centuries. It was easier in a time before instant worldwide communication, and in a world where what was once taught with certainty could be forgotten with the passage of time. But the technique might still work.
First take the spotlight off the outmoded dogma for a while, as was done with usury for example, and then after a generation or two, perhaps change the definition (to use the usury example, change the meaning from lending money at any interest to lending money at excessive interest). Or just say, as with Limbo, that it was never really official teaching at all.
The official teachings on pelvic issues have to change, and Francis is taking the first step: take the spotlight off sexual behavior and focus it on social and economic justice. In a generation or two, the meaning of sexual purity and responsibility can evolve into something more psychologically sane.
The question is, can the faithful wait a generation or two? Remains to be seen.
First take the spotlight off the outmoded dogma for a while, as was done with usury for example, and then after a generation or two, perhaps change the definition (to use the usury example, change the meaning from lending money at any interest to lending money at excessive interest). Or just say, as with Limbo, that it was never really official teaching at all.
The official teachings on pelvic issues have to change, and Francis is taking the first step: take the spotlight off sexual behavior and focus it on social and economic justice. In a generation or two, the meaning of sexual purity and responsibility can evolve into something more psychologically sane.
The question is, can the faithful wait a generation or two? Remains to be seen.
41
The answer is clear already. The church is loosing priests and followers because doctrine and decrees with roots in medieval attitudes toward sex and women are not just out of synch with realities of life for the laity but the are outright unjustice, without compassion and hurtful. I welcome Pope Francis' down to earth statements that peak world interest but they are not enough. The millennial are even listening, they have left the room and won't be back absent fundamental & real change.
34
"in a world where what was once taught with certainty could be forgotten with the passage of time"
That was much easier when only the priests could read. Even the great kings were illiterate, and thought that was right.
That was much easier when only the priests could read. Even the great kings were illiterate, and thought that was right.
13
If dogma changes over time (God changes his/her mind?) why do people adhere to these things in the first place?
2
Cutting through all the rhetoric here, I think what is most significant is this. When I was a child decades ago the families that flooded into the local Catholic church were large. Those that no longer flood into church, but for those who attend, the families are 2.5 children (not a Solomon half but a statistic). Most American Catholics ignore anything "the church" in Rome says or even the American bishops. They've had enough of child abuse and men telling women what to do. And as for the pope and rabbits, let's all simply enjoy the humor of a pope talking about rabbits instead of things past popes talked about: all nonsense.
132
If I was ignoring the church I was attending I'd stop attending altogether (which I've done).
2
Like much of the media, the author may be misinterpreting the words of Pope Francis and reading into them what is in his own mind rather than what the Pope intended. After all, the Pope said nothing at all about artificial contraception in his remarks.
Could it be that the Pope was saying that human beings are more than rabbits and other animals? That, while like animals we may have sexual urges and passions, unlike animals human beings have the power to control them and use them for the gifts that they are?
Pope Paul VI was right.
In the 1968 papal encyclical Humanae Vitae, he predicted some of the destructive societal effects that proliferation of artificial contraception would have.
Since that time, we have had a proliferation in availability and types of artificial contraception.
We have also had a proliferation in marital infidelity, divorce, broken families, children born out of wedlock, and abortions.
Human beings are not rabbits. We are much more. That was the message I took from Pope Francis.
Could it be that the Pope was saying that human beings are more than rabbits and other animals? That, while like animals we may have sexual urges and passions, unlike animals human beings have the power to control them and use them for the gifts that they are?
Pope Paul VI was right.
In the 1968 papal encyclical Humanae Vitae, he predicted some of the destructive societal effects that proliferation of artificial contraception would have.
Since that time, we have had a proliferation in availability and types of artificial contraception.
We have also had a proliferation in marital infidelity, divorce, broken families, children born out of wedlock, and abortions.
Human beings are not rabbits. We are much more. That was the message I took from Pope Francis.
11
Your response is first world centric. The issues he was addressing are crippling poverty, illiteracy and illness that are the direct result of over population based on adherence to rules laid down by an ignorant hierarchy and maintained by an elites, insular group of men who live lives intentionally behind walls created by stone walls and clerical elitism.
86
Congratulations on your enlightened perspective. However, most cultures in developing countries promote the more the merrier, the leading cause of poverty. The lesson I am reading between the lines of the pope is that perhaps humans don't need to breed like rabbits and since they are going to continue to have sex, maybe it is way past time to acknowledge the absolute necessity for contraception to reduce world poverty. I'm hoping Pope Francis is trying to atone for the sins of the Catholic Church against humanity for two thousand years with regard to the Spanish Inquisition, burnings at the stake, the flat-earthers, persecution of Galileo, etc. Just saying; just hoping.
35
Paul VI was anything but right. The Church was a sewer of promiscuity and hypocrisy in its heyday - a fact that Martin Luther understood better than most. For centuries the Catholic Church has attempted to impose on others a moral code that its clergy has largely been unable to uphold - if the truth be truly told and known.
For instance, back in the day, when a good friend was having a "relationship" with a Catholic priest that he had met at a bathhouse, that priest's own estimate was that one half to two thirds of his colleagues, be they gay or straight, were also unable to keep it within their pants - which made them not "impure sinners" but human.
Nonetheless, a eunuch in Rome still saw himself as virtuous by attempting to impose an impractical and utterly subjective personal preference on a body of suffering but well-meaning people - thus giving that body ever more reason to look elsewhere for moral and spiritual guidance.
If Martin Luther could acknowledge 500 years ago that human beings were profoundly sexual creatures, and that sexual urges instilled by Nature's God were not something that one could simply pray or wish away, why not Paul VI in 1966?
Perhaps it was because he was just old fool with a dwindling supply of testosterone - and hence vain enough to imagine that his own deficit of desire rendered him an exemplar?
For instance, back in the day, when a good friend was having a "relationship" with a Catholic priest that he had met at a bathhouse, that priest's own estimate was that one half to two thirds of his colleagues, be they gay or straight, were also unable to keep it within their pants - which made them not "impure sinners" but human.
Nonetheless, a eunuch in Rome still saw himself as virtuous by attempting to impose an impractical and utterly subjective personal preference on a body of suffering but well-meaning people - thus giving that body ever more reason to look elsewhere for moral and spiritual guidance.
If Martin Luther could acknowledge 500 years ago that human beings were profoundly sexual creatures, and that sexual urges instilled by Nature's God were not something that one could simply pray or wish away, why not Paul VI in 1966?
Perhaps it was because he was just old fool with a dwindling supply of testosterone - and hence vain enough to imagine that his own deficit of desire rendered him an exemplar?
25
I remember - my mother was in the hospital, having lost a child at about 6 months pregnancy. Her roommate was a Catholic woman who had just given birth to her 7th child, and was seriously injured in the process. She and her husband both wanted her to have her tubes tied, because another pregnancy would be a serious danger to her life, but the priest told them they could not. Their choice was celibacy or to risk her life.
This was back in the early 1950s, but I suspect all that has changed is that a woman and or couple would no longer seek a priest's approval for a tubal ligation. The church would continue to deny permission, just as it denies permission for medically necessary abortions when the woman's life is in danger and there is little or no chance that the child of that pregnancy would survive.
This was back in the early 1950s, but I suspect all that has changed is that a woman and or couple would no longer seek a priest's approval for a tubal ligation. The church would continue to deny permission, just as it denies permission for medically necessary abortions when the woman's life is in danger and there is little or no chance that the child of that pregnancy would survive.
166
My own mother in the very early 1960's was also threatened with eternal hell if she had a hysterectomy -- necessary to save her life, her doctors told her after she had just had her 6th child. Fortunately, after weeks of anguish, her doctor sent her for counseling to a Catholic gynecologist who convinced her somehow that God would want her to keep living to raise her six children, ranging in age from 11 (that was me) to the newborn 6th child. I will never forget this, how cruel and how completely medieval (that is, ignorant) the Catholic Church is.
15
The definition of "mistress" was "Catholic birth control". Many Catholic women limited their families using abstinence. Their husbands sought sex elsewhere. A woman could be excommunicated for using birth control. If a man confessed to adultery, he was granted a pardon.
2
I'm not Catholic (or even a Christian), but my husband was raised Catholic and I grew up in a Catholic neighborhood.
It's my understand that (at least in the US), the official "workaround" was that a woman (or her husband) would be sterilized. Yes, this was a sin -- but just one. You confessed, did penance and that was that. Unlike birth control, which the use of would constitute a sin every time you confessed! Better to just do it once, and then be done.
All the women in my husband's family -- sisters, nieces, cousins and I suspect his mother (she only had 4 kids, the last at age 25) -- had tubal ligations, by their early 30s.
To me that's strange -- it's not my upbringing nor my religious faith. But I respect the right of other people to have THEIR own religion and THEIR own beliefs and that I don't get to force MY OWN beliefs on them.
It's my understand that (at least in the US), the official "workaround" was that a woman (or her husband) would be sterilized. Yes, this was a sin -- but just one. You confessed, did penance and that was that. Unlike birth control, which the use of would constitute a sin every time you confessed! Better to just do it once, and then be done.
All the women in my husband's family -- sisters, nieces, cousins and I suspect his mother (she only had 4 kids, the last at age 25) -- had tubal ligations, by their early 30s.
To me that's strange -- it's not my upbringing nor my religious faith. But I respect the right of other people to have THEIR own religion and THEIR own beliefs and that I don't get to force MY OWN beliefs on them.
2
A point of order here. While everybody likes to talk about papal infallibility, I don't think that it has ever been applied to moral theology. The pronouncements that have been agreed to as infallible have been few and far between, and are issued under the seal of Ex Cathedra. In the entire history of the church, there are seven such infallible pronouncements, the last in 1950, which defined the assumption of Mary. Invocation of infallibility is extremely rare, and while everybody can hoot and holler on the birth control issue, there is no infallibility attached to it. So, Paul VI wasn't worried about infallibility. He was, as ever, worried about how to control women's sexual activities, under the cover of religion. Not quite the same thing.
122
As I remember Pope Paul was ready to change the birth control story when he was reminded by the head of the Curia that Pius XI outlawed artificial contraception in 1931.
1
If I recall correctly, the prohibition against birth control is NOT infallible doctrine. However, I do recall that Paul VI was very worried about the slippery slope; that once the church said, "You know what, we were wrong about birth control," it would lose its authority over any area of its members lives.
1
I do not have much regard for Francis...yet. These issues of human sexuality are central to our human identity and dignity. The church has been utterly remiss, indeed immoral, with ridiculous teachings. These casual comments and quips from Francis are not at all charming and endearing in my book. Instead, the church needs to find the moral courage to address these issues squarely -- and to beg forgiveness for all the harm it has caused millions of people by trying to teach us we are bad because we are sexual creatures. What an insult to God.
254
Francis is a clever man. These seemingly off-the-cuff remarks are important; he is signaling that a change in perspective is there at the top. "Who am I to judge" is a message to the clergy and laity. So is the Rrbbit quote. This pope cannot overcome the ideas that have evolved over the , but he draws back the veil. He is saying there is another way to look at this. Just as the farmer prepares the soil for planting so this pope is preparing for a new harvest. Open your ears.
3
@TR: It seems to me that at the moment the pope has is busy trying to sort out financial messes and sexual abuse; let's give him a little breathing room. He's 78 years old, and has already made a positive mark on the Church.
For the Church to address the issue of contraception inevitably brings with it the need for the Church to address its attitude towards sex/love (including addressing homosexuality and gay marriage) - since, as you correctly point out, we are sexual creatures, whether heterosexual, homosexual, or bi-sexual.
For the Church to address the issue of contraception inevitably brings with it the need for the Church to address its attitude towards sex/love (including addressing homosexuality and gay marriage) - since, as you correctly point out, we are sexual creatures, whether heterosexual, homosexual, or bi-sexual.
3
Misguided ideas about birth control are not exclusive to Catholics. My father, as a Demographer, met the Grand Mufti of Egypt in the 1980s. The Grand Mufti said that he did not agree with family planning if it meant putting a cap on the number of children born; he did, however, concede that spacing between pregnancies was acceptable for the benefit of maternal health. He could not see that spacing a woman's births meant limiting them, too!
29
All religions, and the American legal system too, make a difference between explicitly doing something and having it be the outcome of a different intent. So, no, the mufti wasn't confused.
I think the Pope likes to shock. But he also likes to get people's attention, which is another more positive way to put it.
If any pope might just be the one to break the bonds of the "infallibility" trap, it's this one. From the short time I've seen him, he doesn't do things without a build. I wouldn't rule out, from this one particularly, at some point--maybe after the final report on the Synod on the family--some change the use of contraception. If US bishops wanted it back in the 60s, they sure as shooting want it now--particularly given levels of poverty and out of wedlock pregnancies.
Approving contraception is a no brainer if you want to eliminate abortions which are the cornerstone of Catholic doctrine. Approving contraception might also be a tacit admission--gasp!--that people in committed relationships are allowed to have, and enjoy sex. That sex is a way to communicate love, instead of procreate. I haven't heard much of the teaching that every sexual act had to be done with the intent of procreating. That left a lot of sexless marriages when a wife turned 40.
Give Francis time. He keeps surprising, sometimes if only to raise hopes then dash them. But if he is as intensely practical as those who know him say, he appreciates the fact that sowing seeds must precede great changes.
Timing is all--in rhythm as well as in life.
If any pope might just be the one to break the bonds of the "infallibility" trap, it's this one. From the short time I've seen him, he doesn't do things without a build. I wouldn't rule out, from this one particularly, at some point--maybe after the final report on the Synod on the family--some change the use of contraception. If US bishops wanted it back in the 60s, they sure as shooting want it now--particularly given levels of poverty and out of wedlock pregnancies.
Approving contraception is a no brainer if you want to eliminate abortions which are the cornerstone of Catholic doctrine. Approving contraception might also be a tacit admission--gasp!--that people in committed relationships are allowed to have, and enjoy sex. That sex is a way to communicate love, instead of procreate. I haven't heard much of the teaching that every sexual act had to be done with the intent of procreating. That left a lot of sexless marriages when a wife turned 40.
Give Francis time. He keeps surprising, sometimes if only to raise hopes then dash them. But if he is as intensely practical as those who know him say, he appreciates the fact that sowing seeds must precede great changes.
Timing is all--in rhythm as well as in life.
54
Maybe the memorable phrases from Pope Francis are a way for him to open up his audience and the conversation. By disarming us (breaking through our usual patterns), maybe he helps people take in more of the universe than we usually do and reach more of our potential.
36
Right. He's doing what any great leader would do in his situation: he's changing the conversation. Words matter - a lot.
2
I like the Pope's words 'breed like rabbits' which sits in contradistinction to an image of Mitt Romney, his children, his children's children, his ...
The reason his words became such a flame point is that there are those who believe that we humans have the unlimited right 'to be fruitful and multiply', that the earth is ours for the taking, and that we have every right to dominate, subjugate and mistreat any part of the natural world and its many forms of life that we wish
There are those who see our rocketing human numbers as a danger, to the air we breathe, to the decimation of other species, to the pollution of the oceans and rivers, to a rapidly warming world.
Native American people, though perhaps not saintly to the natural world, had a reverence for life and respect for the lives of animals which were taken, so that they could live. America before Europeans is said to have had forests as far as the eye could see, fish so thick that rivers were alive with their teeming numbers, a great multitude of animals and plants.
Each year hundreds of thousands of acres of land, forest and farmland, are converted to spaces for homes, strip malls, road building, resource mining, all tied to human numbers which continue upward and more demands from a hungry, insatiable and consuming public.
Having smaller families is a laudable and necessary goal, not only for our species for the myriad of other species which also inhabit this earth.
The reason his words became such a flame point is that there are those who believe that we humans have the unlimited right 'to be fruitful and multiply', that the earth is ours for the taking, and that we have every right to dominate, subjugate and mistreat any part of the natural world and its many forms of life that we wish
There are those who see our rocketing human numbers as a danger, to the air we breathe, to the decimation of other species, to the pollution of the oceans and rivers, to a rapidly warming world.
Native American people, though perhaps not saintly to the natural world, had a reverence for life and respect for the lives of animals which were taken, so that they could live. America before Europeans is said to have had forests as far as the eye could see, fish so thick that rivers were alive with their teeming numbers, a great multitude of animals and plants.
Each year hundreds of thousands of acres of land, forest and farmland, are converted to spaces for homes, strip malls, road building, resource mining, all tied to human numbers which continue upward and more demands from a hungry, insatiable and consuming public.
Having smaller families is a laudable and necessary goal, not only for our species for the myriad of other species which also inhabit this earth.
243
"like rabbits" are old words often used about Catholics and borrowed by Francis. The PM of Northern Ireland, Terence O'Neill, once said: "Give "Cath'lics good jobs and they'll stop breeding like rabbits."
3
That's a bizarre dig at Romney. He has five children -- not 15. I know plenty of liberal Democrats with families that large -- uh, the Kennedy clan?
Furthermore, the LDS Mormon Church does not prohibit contraception. The Catholic Church is actually pretty unique in mandating absolutely no contraception; I can't think of another religion that absolutely bans it.
Furthermore, the LDS Mormon Church does not prohibit contraception. The Catholic Church is actually pretty unique in mandating absolutely no contraception; I can't think of another religion that absolutely bans it.
1
The phrase 'like rabbits', however inadvisably frank, implicitly brings up an important point.
Rabbits are prey animals, Low on the food chain, they have a high mortality rate. Their basic role in life is to eat shrubbery and then get eaten. The small creatures that occupy this ecological niche breed quickly and frequently, always outrunning the fang and claw by sheer numbers. Moreover, even if they don't wind up in Farmer McGregor's rabbit pie or down the Big Bad Wolf's gullet or flat on the highway shoulder, they have high metabolisms and short lifespans.
Humans are not rabbits. Back when revealed religion was forming its ethos, it was not unusual to produce a dozen children in the hope one or two would survive to adulthood. Even a minor injury could mean septic death, diseases now rare and/or curable were swiftly, almost invariably fatal. We were in the middle of the food chain, not at the top. It's only in the past 100 years or so that we have seen it as an aberration for a child to predecease its parents, rather than a norm. Human life was Hobbesian - nasty, brutish, and short - and we had to breed like rabbits because our existence was almost as tenuous as theirs.
Times have changed. I think the Pope realises this, at least with regard to birth control.
Rabbits are prey animals, Low on the food chain, they have a high mortality rate. Their basic role in life is to eat shrubbery and then get eaten. The small creatures that occupy this ecological niche breed quickly and frequently, always outrunning the fang and claw by sheer numbers. Moreover, even if they don't wind up in Farmer McGregor's rabbit pie or down the Big Bad Wolf's gullet or flat on the highway shoulder, they have high metabolisms and short lifespans.
Humans are not rabbits. Back when revealed religion was forming its ethos, it was not unusual to produce a dozen children in the hope one or two would survive to adulthood. Even a minor injury could mean septic death, diseases now rare and/or curable were swiftly, almost invariably fatal. We were in the middle of the food chain, not at the top. It's only in the past 100 years or so that we have seen it as an aberration for a child to predecease its parents, rather than a norm. Human life was Hobbesian - nasty, brutish, and short - and we had to breed like rabbits because our existence was almost as tenuous as theirs.
Times have changed. I think the Pope realises this, at least with regard to birth control.
335
"it was not unusual to produce a dozen children in the hope one or two would survive to adulthood"
True. I have three children, and two would have died in those times, maybe all three. Before antibiotics, simple infections or an appendix was a fatal problem.
Think about your own life. How many would have died without medical care? How many times have each of us taken for granted antibiotics and simple surgeries?
True. I have three children, and two would have died in those times, maybe all three. Before antibiotics, simple infections or an appendix was a fatal problem.
Think about your own life. How many would have died without medical care? How many times have each of us taken for granted antibiotics and simple surgeries?
31
"...Their basic role in life is to eat shrubbery and then get eaten." Hmmm... I am sure, from the slavehouses of Rome, to the greatest e-retailers' warehouses, I sure hope nobody is saying "...their basic role in life is to work and be exploited."
But then again, in the natural world, men (and women) might not really be more than rabbits.
But then again, in the natural world, men (and women) might not really be more than rabbits.
4
Let's not forget that religion is a business and the Church is the most successful of all. But it needs to maintain its client base. Hence, no birth control.
6
Pope Francis is a playful character and beloved by the world for his charms. When people look, they see a man of the people, perhaps of all seasons. He makes people feel good just like a really popular movie star or opera singer.
Then when reality strikes we realize he is not a God or even related to God, unless one is truly bananas. The Catholic church has always supported science, except when it came to Galileo and his silly little idea about the earth orbiting the sun instead of vice versus. Anyways, if it helps people get through their lives by really imagining that a God is micromanaging all of their decisions so be it. Just don't expect other people to believe the same fairy tales.
Then when reality strikes we realize he is not a God or even related to God, unless one is truly bananas. The Catholic church has always supported science, except when it came to Galileo and his silly little idea about the earth orbiting the sun instead of vice versus. Anyways, if it helps people get through their lives by really imagining that a God is micromanaging all of their decisions so be it. Just don't expect other people to believe the same fairy tales.
71
If you want to think of religion as "fairy tales," fine--but don't expect not to get called out for writing about people of faith so dismissively.
I respect your right not to believe. Please show people of faith a little more respect in return.
I respect your right not to believe. Please show people of faith a little more respect in return.
2
Mythology is wonderful mindplay, but terrible cause for legislation.
7
If god is micromanaging our world, god is cruel to all of the animals like rabbits, who are food for the "higher species". Applications of neo Darwinism open the doors to utilitarian thinking such as the concept that the less useful do not deserve to live or to be eaten by their superiors.
1
St. Paul's letters to churches almost always responded to problems and questions about pastoral matters, and his advice was pragmatic. I think the same can be said of many church fathers who followed. So Francis is in good company. Perhaps Buenos Aires was a good training ground.
I get the impression that conservative Catholics and some conservative Evangelicals are dismayed.
I get the impression that conservative Catholics and some conservative Evangelicals are dismayed.
34
St. Paul addressed specific problems in his Epistles, but what he wrote is often cited to back up broad admonitions about what people in general should or shouldn't do. It's dismaying.
I'll be interested to see if Pope Francis backs up his words with actions. I think many people are practicing wishful thinking as far as how much change he really wants to enact. He's definitely an improvement on his precedessor, at least; he seems more humble.
I'll be interested to see if Pope Francis backs up his words with actions. I think many people are practicing wishful thinking as far as how much change he really wants to enact. He's definitely an improvement on his precedessor, at least; he seems more humble.
18
I think Pope Francis never expected to get the job.
3
@D. Martin: St. Paul had issues with women, at a minimum. And one of the problems today is that his Epistles are taken as if they are Gospels!
Yes, conservative Catholics and the comfortably entrenched conservative cardinals & bishops are surely dismayed, which in this case is a good thing!
Yes, conservative Catholics and the comfortably entrenched conservative cardinals & bishops are surely dismayed, which in this case is a good thing!
2
The ethical/religious issue should be whether families should attempt to limit fertility. Once one has decided that it is both ethical and practical to limit fertility, the choice of methods should be seen primarily as a technical question of what works best in each setting.
The notion that certain contraceptive methods are religiously allowed while others are not has always seemed a contrived distinction.
The notion that certain contraceptive methods are religiously allowed while others are not has always seemed a contrived distinction.
307
I'm not Catholic, but I've always thought the same thing. If the intent is to prevent pregnancy, wouldn't any moral sin be in the intent? Why would it somehow be sinful to use one method but not another (silly arguments about certain contraceptives being abortifacients aside - another whole topic)?
1
As Mencken was reported to have said (paraphrase)
I am delighted that Catholics are now allowed to use
mathematics for birth control. I eagerly await the time
when they can use physics and chemistry.
I am delighted that Catholics are now allowed to use
mathematics for birth control. I eagerly await the time
when they can use physics and chemistry.
11
Pope Francis is always disarming when he makes these candid quips, and he seems like a nice guy. It would all be amusing and heartwarming if it weren't for the damage that Church pronouncements have caused over the years. Until recently, previous popes preached against condom use in AIDS-ravaged Africa. There are no statistics on how many men, women and children suffered and died as a result.
There are consequences to living one's life based on the wisdom of illiterate first-century tribal collectives. Maybe procreation was vital to the species' survival back then. Today we know better, and our survival may depend more on balancing the number of people on the planet with the available resources.
Religion is heartwarming when parishioners are sharing their communal faith at Sunday services, but it's less so when political leaders are using it to castigate gay and lesbian citizens, or when people play the religious-objection card to avoid vaccinating their children.
We shouldn't forget that this affable, sensible and compassionate pope also performed an impromptu exorcism in 2013 (not 1213, or 1613) to "liberate a Mexican man possessed by four different demons."
However meek and mild the pope appears to be, we should remember that he's not the final one who will hold the job. Sensible changes to doctrine today may be stiffened tomorrow, at the whim of the political forces of the day.
This pope has common sense, but so do we. Maybe we should rely on our own gifts.
There are consequences to living one's life based on the wisdom of illiterate first-century tribal collectives. Maybe procreation was vital to the species' survival back then. Today we know better, and our survival may depend more on balancing the number of people on the planet with the available resources.
Religion is heartwarming when parishioners are sharing their communal faith at Sunday services, but it's less so when political leaders are using it to castigate gay and lesbian citizens, or when people play the religious-objection card to avoid vaccinating their children.
We shouldn't forget that this affable, sensible and compassionate pope also performed an impromptu exorcism in 2013 (not 1213, or 1613) to "liberate a Mexican man possessed by four different demons."
However meek and mild the pope appears to be, we should remember that he's not the final one who will hold the job. Sensible changes to doctrine today may be stiffened tomorrow, at the whim of the political forces of the day.
This pope has common sense, but so do we. Maybe we should rely on our own gifts.
329
One needn't honor a god to see that the Pope is a world leader, who, if he chooses, can lecture other world leaders, influence the thinking and actions of his own powerful bureaucracy. He has certain "political" and fiscal powers we don't have and, if properly used, these powers become gifts: the power of appointment and the power to decide how the church allocates vast resources. If he chooses, as many hope he will, he can lead the Church across paths and down alleys no one ever expected to travel. He can seek to right the wrongs inflicted by the church in the past, or at least begin to do so.
By any objective standard, the Church committed high crimes over history's course. No one can forget how it violated and skirted the law in its coverup of priestly pedophelia and child abuse. Women and gays, in my view, remain second class catholics. But, change begins somewhere, and, while no one should ever ignore history's lessons, that history should incite change. This Pope is fun to watch and his dishin' seems to be sending messages of deep compassion for the poor and outsiders; renewed respect for working people; respect for human dignity.
Our gifts and desire to do well are finite and cannot replicate the degree of influence depth and width of his stage provides him. A leader with the right instincts can cause dramatic changes or at least begin to. Our power is to nudge him along.
By any objective standard, the Church committed high crimes over history's course. No one can forget how it violated and skirted the law in its coverup of priestly pedophelia and child abuse. Women and gays, in my view, remain second class catholics. But, change begins somewhere, and, while no one should ever ignore history's lessons, that history should incite change. This Pope is fun to watch and his dishin' seems to be sending messages of deep compassion for the poor and outsiders; renewed respect for working people; respect for human dignity.
Our gifts and desire to do well are finite and cannot replicate the degree of influence depth and width of his stage provides him. A leader with the right instincts can cause dramatic changes or at least begin to. Our power is to nudge him along.
101
"Maybe procreation was vital to the species' survival back then."
I think there's a simpler, less existential force at work: Bigger families means more parishioners, more money, and more power for the church's hierarchy. Same thing with Mormon (growth rate twice that of the average world population growth) and Muslim (50% higher than world avg) religions.
I think there's a simpler, less existential force at work: Bigger families means more parishioners, more money, and more power for the church's hierarchy. Same thing with Mormon (growth rate twice that of the average world population growth) and Muslim (50% higher than world avg) religions.
16
With respect, in an attempt to keep you honest (since you generally tend to be), the Pope did NOT "perform an exorcism," impromptu or otherwise. He simply said a prayer over a man who claimed to be possessed. That is NOT the same as an exorcism, which involves an enormous amount more than a simple prayer. Other than that, kudos on your post.
7