The party of "No" has not changed. When, and if, it does, our nation can then design a workable plan to make better educational opportunities available for all with the gumption to use same.
Mr Brooks: I can certainly appreciate your thoughts here. However, I believe as others have stated that we must take the first step. Yes, Pell Grants do exist for low-income students, however, it's not quite as simple as that. For first-generate students, the application process can be likened to navigating shark-infested waters without a boat especially with little to no guidance from home or at school.
By granting free-tuition, the barrier to entry is lowered with students able to see a glimpse into what is possible. Does it address all the problems? Of course not. You were correct to discuss child care, books, and matriculation. However, if our community college enrollment numbers increase with proper financial support, then we can allocate more resources to help mentor our most at-risk students, help them succeed, and hopefully create another generation of highly skilled workers which helps not only them, but us as a nation. Isn’t that what we really want?
By granting free-tuition, the barrier to entry is lowered with students able to see a glimpse into what is possible. Does it address all the problems? Of course not. You were correct to discuss child care, books, and matriculation. However, if our community college enrollment numbers increase with proper financial support, then we can allocate more resources to help mentor our most at-risk students, help them succeed, and hopefully create another generation of highly skilled workers which helps not only them, but us as a nation. Isn’t that what we really want?
David Brooks , what you say is right. But we have to take a first step . And as a first step this free-tuition plan rocks. We can't take all steps simultaneously.
Actually , the next step need be to create jobs suitable to the qualification achieved. And, if that's done its guaranteed that there won't be any drop outs .most of us want a job for our livelihood and not for making millions , which of course is a secondary target.
One need not be a rocket scientist to criticise,find flaws , suggest improvements to any government scheme or initiative , but it needs a genius to make full use of or to even appreciate what little the government initiatives can achieve.
Private corporations need to procure just one man's consent or approval to do something . For them , the impossible could be done immediately In private sectors .But government approvals might take longer , short of miracles as approval of different departments , interdepartmental prioritization and rivalry between party factions , inevitably delay decisions in a democracy or even in a Corporatocracy.
Actually , the next step need be to create jobs suitable to the qualification achieved. And, if that's done its guaranteed that there won't be any drop outs .most of us want a job for our livelihood and not for making millions , which of course is a secondary target.
One need not be a rocket scientist to criticise,find flaws , suggest improvements to any government scheme or initiative , but it needs a genius to make full use of or to even appreciate what little the government initiatives can achieve.
Private corporations need to procure just one man's consent or approval to do something . For them , the impossible could be done immediately In private sectors .But government approvals might take longer , short of miracles as approval of different departments , interdepartmental prioritization and rivalry between party factions , inevitably delay decisions in a democracy or even in a Corporatocracy.
2
It's such a difficult issue to analyze and assess. It was easier to think of it when there weren't so many articles on the topic, where everyone is trying to assure that Obama's plan is right or wrong.
Honestly, I cannot say I have my strong position and opinion now, there are so many pros and cons we should evaluate. Here is interesting analytical article about what Barack Obama's free community colleges means for students - http://www.essaymama.com/blog/obamas-free-community-colleges-for-students/.
Honestly, I cannot say I have my strong position and opinion now, there are so many pros and cons we should evaluate. Here is interesting analytical article about what Barack Obama's free community colleges means for students - http://www.essaymama.com/blog/obamas-free-community-colleges-for-students/.
Some of the proposals noted here, such as remedial education, guidance on registration, makes me think that everyone is missing the point. Anyone who is accepted to college is expected to be mature capable enough to handle the registration process, as well as the course load without having to get remedial education. Isn't that the basic skill set that comes from a high school education and diploma? Maybe the efforts should be directed at the secondary school level, rather than saddling colleges with the task of supporting matriculants who don't meet basic qualifications to do college coursework.
It's nice to see Brooks support the use of federal funding to
improve community college graduation rates. Clearly it is in the public interest to subsidize this goal.
We should do whatever works. Having test cases running in Tennessee and Chicago gives us a chance to see the effectiveness of that approach. Brooks should support such experiments, mot opposed them.
improve community college graduation rates. Clearly it is in the public interest to subsidize this goal.
We should do whatever works. Having test cases running in Tennessee and Chicago gives us a chance to see the effectiveness of that approach. Brooks should support such experiments, mot opposed them.
The reason many today dropped out of community college is because they can't see the relevance of what they are learning to what they need to do to put food on the table. Many who attend CCs are students who did not do well in high school, mostly because they lack the aptitude or motivation. They go on to CC because everyone tells them they need a college degree to get a decent job. However CC gives them the same problem as in high school, again teaching them stuff they have no aptitude for or interest in, such as remedial English or Algebra.
What most kids who attend CC need is vocational education, skills that can help them get jobs, like office management, basic coding, auto mechanics, dental hygienist, cooking, electrician, hair dressing etc. instead of making CC free, which are still trying to get kids into 4 year colleges, we should make Vocational schools free. These schools offer 1 to 2 year certification programs that can really help so many high school dropouts or people who want to change career in mid life.
What most kids who attend CC need is vocational education, skills that can help them get jobs, like office management, basic coding, auto mechanics, dental hygienist, cooking, electrician, hair dressing etc. instead of making CC free, which are still trying to get kids into 4 year colleges, we should make Vocational schools free. These schools offer 1 to 2 year certification programs that can really help so many high school dropouts or people who want to change career in mid life.
1
Why are unprepared students being accepted at any level of higher education. Is college the proper site for remediation?
I was the first and only person in my family to go to college, a community college in California that was free. I continued my education, became a teacher and worked with military children. A community college gave me my start and I hope others get the same opportunity.
"Free" without strong admission standards will waste resources that might better go to training, suitable to those who want it.
I'm jarred by the suggestion that "fees less than $1000" are not a significant impediment to most CC students. Working 40hrs/wk 52 weeks/yr grosses $15k at minimum wage. If any (much less $1k) of that is "disposable income" the worker must be a genius living in Paradise. My experience and that of those students I and my friends later taught is of the great majority living on shoe-strings, working every hour they could, and genius or not, still struggling.
1
I taught and advised students at a SUNY community college for 20 years.
David, you don't know what you're talking about.
David, you don't know what you're talking about.
while brooks makes a valid point about middle-class students paying a small fraction of the costs of junior college, even better would be if a high school diploma ensured employability. and are jr college students dropping out because they get jobs or for other reasons?
the establishment, including brooks, really doesn't have any solutions to the challenge of creating jobs that are actual livelihoods, what with fossil fuel addiction and free trade.
the establishment, including brooks, really doesn't have any solutions to the challenge of creating jobs that are actual livelihoods, what with fossil fuel addiction and free trade.
We already have state and local taxpayers provide $75 billion each year to fund the annual losses at public universities. David is correct that the problem is unprepared students and colleges that take little responsibility to properly mentor and guide students, so very few graduate.
Unfortunately students and parents don't want to be told that their child is not qualified or that they should chose a different major. But they do want someone else to pay for it. That is why so few graduate.
The issue is the lack of rational accountability and truth, not more money.
Unfortunately students and parents don't want to be told that their child is not qualified or that they should chose a different major. But they do want someone else to pay for it. That is why so few graduate.
The issue is the lack of rational accountability and truth, not more money.
Thank you Mr Brooks, this is why the Republicans deserve to be in charge. You can't just fix things by throwing other peoples money at them.
This is the same disaster that has happened in for profit education; the governments gives anyone a loan without the slightest bit of checking to see if they can actually graduate, they get to their school, are unable to finish, don't get any qualifications but the governments money is already gone and they now have debt.
This reminds me of the Democrats strategy for health, just get everyone insurance then they will be healthier. Wrong.
Mr. Brooks is one of the few lucid commentators out there.
This is the same disaster that has happened in for profit education; the governments gives anyone a loan without the slightest bit of checking to see if they can actually graduate, they get to their school, are unable to finish, don't get any qualifications but the governments money is already gone and they now have debt.
This reminds me of the Democrats strategy for health, just get everyone insurance then they will be healthier. Wrong.
Mr. Brooks is one of the few lucid commentators out there.
6 of one, half dozen of the other. If tuition were free, that would free up money for the student's housing and book expense. Or ask the students to pay for tuition, and give them equivalent dollar assistance on housing and books. Same thing. There's no difference, so there's no reason to believe one is better than the other. Mr. Brooks is simply being contrary. Again.
Likewise, Mr. Brooks cites no evidence to support his claim. It's just another of Mr. Brook's speculations, like when he said the stock market was going to tank and his advice was for Americans to not invest in the stock market. This was back in May 2011 when the Dow was under 11,000. How did that speculation by Mr. Brooks work out?
Likewise, Mr. Brooks cites no evidence to support his claim. It's just another of Mr. Brook's speculations, like when he said the stock market was going to tank and his advice was for Americans to not invest in the stock market. This was back in May 2011 when the Dow was under 11,000. How did that speculation by Mr. Brooks work out?
Community colleges are fine institutions and on the whole are a big plus for the communities they serve.
But they are already cheap or very reasonable compared to four year institutions.
Is this a case of declaring tap water free and acting like you've actually done something when, in fact, you haven't.
But they are already cheap or very reasonable compared to four year institutions.
Is this a case of declaring tap water free and acting like you've actually done something when, in fact, you haven't.
My experience as an instructor at Onondaga Community College in Syracuse, New York, has led me to believe that the best way to address the high dropout rate is to re-imagine the role and purpose of community colleges. My students were diverse demographically as well as academically. Some of my students would go onto four-year schools (even Ivy League), but their classmates might struggle writing a coherent paragraph. Community colleges need to recognize the different student populations and cater to their needs. Students interested in pursuing a four-year program should be held to the standards of a four-year school. However, those students that would benefit from a strict vocational education should not face the same requirements as the future four-year students. It makes little sense to force community college students to take courses that they have little interest in or know they will fail (for many years I had students enrolled in my college history course that I had failed when previously teaching them in high school). There isn't an instructor in this country that wishes to teach students that have absolutely no interest or desire in the class they are teaching. Arcane requirements greatly influence the high dropout rate. While remediation may prolong the inevitable, eventually the student's lack of preparation and interest will force them to drop out.
1
What if the $$ President Obama is proposing to waive community college tuition was used to create applied training programs _on those very campuses_ paralleling student coursework? Since campuses are ostensibly a replica of small cities, perhaps they themselves might incentivize graduation and labor market attachment if they offered opportunities for students to deepen their knowledge/earn a degree, prepare for their careers, *and simultaneously* shore up the now flagging long-term value of their institutions? For example, community colleges are a real estate/investment and facilities maintenance concern, complete with essential tele-comm, transportation, water, and power infrastructure networks. As well, campus cafes, bookstores, and news stands add up to a retail "sector." And doesn't the structure of classroom learning itself approximate the US industrial/ manufacturing sector--high tech to apparel?
Point is, if community colleges offered students experiential education, giving them a sense of purpose (as preparation) in these small worlds for meaningful, long-term participation in the labor market as well as in the reproduction of great cities, STUDENTS MIGHT NOT FLUNK OUT.
Point is, if community colleges offered students experiential education, giving them a sense of purpose (as preparation) in these small worlds for meaningful, long-term participation in the labor market as well as in the reproduction of great cities, STUDENTS MIGHT NOT FLUNK OUT.
1
David Brooks makes several salient points regarding President Obama’s recent proposal for Community College tuition. However, Mr. Brooks is addressing the wrong audience. It is unlikely that Mr. Obama has not considered these ideas. But we can guess at the response of the congressional majority if he voiced the suggestions:
Pay for housing? “We don’t want more welfare!”
Subsidize books and child care? “That is increasing entitlements!”
Transportation? Remedial education? “Those are best done at the state level!”
If you would really like to see what you call Human Capital 2.0, I suggest you address your points to congress rather than to Mr. Obama.
Pay for housing? “We don’t want more welfare!”
Subsidize books and child care? “That is increasing entitlements!”
Transportation? Remedial education? “Those are best done at the state level!”
If you would really like to see what you call Human Capital 2.0, I suggest you address your points to congress rather than to Mr. Obama.
2
One of the most onerous costs-car ownership. Too many courses require students to drive to off campus sites. Too many colleges have zero public transit, or it stops running before classes do. Too many students can't get between jobs and school by transit. Stop forcing students to drive to get an education.
1
David Brooks offers an intelligent ant thoughtful commentary, i'd like to suggest a tweak. Reimburse the students on academic probation after successfully completing the quarter or semester. That puts "some skin in the game".
1
I was a foster child who, with a lot of sheer luck, managed to get to college, get a degree, get a Master's degree, and I now teach as an adjunct at a Community College.
I think we still have large gaps in the conversation. There are financial interests including unions, banks, and even the government who make money off our current tuition system. It make perfect sense to take the money we are feeding back to the 1% and actually spend it educating our young and not so young people.
Community colleges are a key place where mid-career adults retrain when they need new skills or economic train wrecks reshape their careers.
It is foolish to believe that anyone who must work full-time to keep a roof over their head will have the energy and resources to study the same way that a fully supported student can.
Brilliance is not distributed by zip code and we need to support all of our students in gaining (and regaining) the skills to ride the roller coaster times we live in.
I don't think it is a choice between better entry-level wages and lowering tuition burdens. We need to be doing both - and much, much more.
I think we still have large gaps in the conversation. There are financial interests including unions, banks, and even the government who make money off our current tuition system. It make perfect sense to take the money we are feeding back to the 1% and actually spend it educating our young and not so young people.
Community colleges are a key place where mid-career adults retrain when they need new skills or economic train wrecks reshape their careers.
It is foolish to believe that anyone who must work full-time to keep a roof over their head will have the energy and resources to study the same way that a fully supported student can.
Brilliance is not distributed by zip code and we need to support all of our students in gaining (and regaining) the skills to ride the roller coaster times we live in.
I don't think it is a choice between better entry-level wages and lowering tuition burdens. We need to be doing both - and much, much more.
6
let's support our students, but only because the President suggested it. The right can only react. They propose no ideas.
Oh Please.
The Republicans have no interest in doing anything that will help average Americans or the country.
They are not being honest. The only thing that they are interested in is money - ALL of the money - your money !
The republican Party is nothing more then a business, and the United States is nothing more than a business opportunity.
The Republicans have no interest in doing anything that will help average Americans or the country.
They are not being honest. The only thing that they are interested in is money - ALL of the money - your money !
The republican Party is nothing more then a business, and the United States is nothing more than a business opportunity.
I applaud Mr. Brooks for stating his ideas. It would be great if President Obama's proposal for free tuition in community colleges generates open discussion about what is important to do to give young students the education they need and deserve. How refreshing it would be for our law makers to enter into this honest conversation.
President Obama’s call for making at least two years of college education free receives a thumbs-up from me. Adding an Apprentice/Vocational initiative will allow young people from across the country to access jobs in the skilled trades that are in-demand indifferent sectors and regions. And yes, Businesses should be totally involved with a portion of the cost (tax deductible of course).
1
Granted, all you say but do you, in your wildest dreams believe that a Republican congress would even consider doing anything positive for the poor?
Brooks does it again...well reasoned. The goal is to have students benefit from sn education, not merely show up.
You are right on track when you say that most good students already get to pay very little or no tuition. President Obama's plan will still help more students; but the biggest problem in American education is that even though we have cutting edge mind education, not only do we ignore brain education; we actually miseducate the brain.
Nature's brain/wisdom/self-image/self-identity/emotional-intelligence education starts almost from conception and it is practically over by age five. Brain education is the foundation on which mind education is built. Ignoring brain education during early life and letting parents miseducate the brain results in the creation of emotionally challenged brains. Emotionally challenged brains enter the classroom and instead of identifying the problem we make the problem worse by labeling the student a failure.
This is what our leaders need to do:
1) Train parents in nurturing healthy self-identity/emotional-intelligence/brain/mind/wisdom/emotional-health/self-image in their young.
2) Create brain/mind/self-identity/emotional-health/wisdom/emotional-intelligence inspectors/coaches who must track and guide/coach the brain/mind/self-identity development from birth onwards till the infant enters school.
3) Train teachers to detect and heal emotionally challenged self-identities of the young and old students.
Nature's brain/wisdom/self-image/self-identity/emotional-intelligence education starts almost from conception and it is practically over by age five. Brain education is the foundation on which mind education is built. Ignoring brain education during early life and letting parents miseducate the brain results in the creation of emotionally challenged brains. Emotionally challenged brains enter the classroom and instead of identifying the problem we make the problem worse by labeling the student a failure.
This is what our leaders need to do:
1) Train parents in nurturing healthy self-identity/emotional-intelligence/brain/mind/wisdom/emotional-health/self-image in their young.
2) Create brain/mind/self-identity/emotional-health/wisdom/emotional-intelligence inspectors/coaches who must track and guide/coach the brain/mind/self-identity development from birth onwards till the infant enters school.
3) Train teachers to detect and heal emotionally challenged self-identities of the young and old students.
This time Brooks resorts to typical Republican hypocrisy. The GOP screams for limiting government's role and just give people opportunity to compete, but balks when they face such a proposal, and instead call for "alternatives" that would insert government into an array of "program" that would dilute the government's impact and/or doom it to failure.
As with so much of what we try to achieve with public policy, we simply need to do less better (apologies to Jerry Brown). This would include pushing community colleges to stress vocationally relevant curricula, not grade inflated pseudo liberal arts courses taught by adjunct faculty. It would also include working to eliminate the largely unnecessary degree requirements that prevent ambitious and intelligent young people from getting jobs they are more than capable of doing if given a sound secondary education. Brooks is quite right in claiming that, as things stand now, free college tuition is just another middle class subsidy.
1
Of course Brooks does not support subsidizing higher education for lower and middle class young people.
I have worked at community colleges and making them tuition free is a mistake. If there were testing in place to insure that students admitted had college level skills then fine. As it is almost all students admitted are woefully unprepared even for community college standards which to be blunt are not the most strenuous in academe. If taxpayers were to undertake the cost of remediation the amounts of money spent/wasted would be staggering. If you want to improve America's ability to compete then make sure students are getting the best K-8 education that they can. After that their competences will take them the rest of the way.
Having free community colleges would be a huge help to discrediting the for-profit higher education "business" that feeds off poor students going into debt because they were fooled by a slick marketing campaign. So what if for the half the attendees it is nothing more than remedial high school? Why is that a bad thing? At least those students would be adults attending because they choose to be there, and disruptive students would have no place. The fact that David Brooks needs to look for a rainy cloud in this very simple Obama proposal makes me wonder. Mr. Brooks throws out meaningless jargon like Human Capital 1.0 and 2.0 -- as if we have not been trying the Republicans version of 2.0 for the last 2 decades.
He does have a good point about strengthening some of the support structures to keep students in school. But the bottom line will always be cost. Let's see whether being free does make a difference before we reject that notion out of hand.
He does have a good point about strengthening some of the support structures to keep students in school. But the bottom line will always be cost. Let's see whether being free does make a difference before we reject that notion out of hand.
Free tuition and "supporting structures" are needed. There's no better way to save the future than investing in education now.
One possible consequence not mentioned by Brooks is further class segregation in colleges. Will lower incomes students be attracted to the free label and avoid exploring four year colleges?
As an alternative to President Obama's college proposal, David's to-do list (child care, remedial education, living expenses, etc.) is impressive.
As a political reality, it is nil.
As a smokescreen, therefore, it is exemplary.
By all means, let us do nothing.
As a political reality, it is nil.
As a smokescreen, therefore, it is exemplary.
By all means, let us do nothing.
I have never agreed with David Brooks, but I agree with this op-ed. Assuming of course that he means any of what he says.
Don't forget support for those with learning challenges. My son has
Aspergers. He is 23, and Community Colleges have been a small miracle as he transitions to adulthood. I'm not sure how many 23 yr olds share his needs for support. But 1 in 68 eight year olds has autism as reported by the CDC. They are going to need a lot of support in just ten years when they age out of the school system. Community Colleges will be part of the solution.
Aspergers. He is 23, and Community Colleges have been a small miracle as he transitions to adulthood. I'm not sure how many 23 yr olds share his needs for support. But 1 in 68 eight year olds has autism as reported by the CDC. They are going to need a lot of support in just ten years when they age out of the school system. Community Colleges will be part of the solution.
Replace Mr Brook's observations on this 'education' subject with 'health' and similarities abound for health policy.
Mr. Brooks, You are so wrong. Increased enrollment shows how many students really want to improve their lot in life. Yes, they may not make the grade, but that is partly because they have never been aimed in a college direction. Everyone around them KNOWS, has always known, they can't go to college. Their parents know they can't afford it, the students know, the teachers know, the counselors know. If everyone believed they had a chance because community college was free, the attitude would changes and the students would begin to prepare -- with support. I've been a principal and teacher in schools with high poverty rates. When you change attitudes and expectations, it changes everything -- including how the family thinks of education. No one should be denied opportunity in this country. You can run around the problem in twelve different directions, but free community college tuition is a huge step forward for anyone with limited resources.
For once, Mr. Brooks, I agree with you 100%. Now instead of being the party of "no," if the GOP controlled Congress ever managed to pass any legislation like that - allocating and spending the money - I'll bet the president would seriously consider it.
I agree with other comments like, "I don't know that providing financial assistance to students enrolling with a community college needs to be an either or program."
Although I was lucky enough to attend a very good four-year college on full needs-based scholarship, I can attest to the fact that it was the living expenses that posed the greatest threat to my graduation. It got so dire one year that I ended up living in the basement of a campus building just to I didn't have to work enough hours to pay the cost of housing.
Many, perhaps most, four year colleges have financial aid. Some of the best colleges are needs-blind. Often, though, first generation students and their families are not aware of this and believe they cannot afford college. Others go to state schools, which can actually cost more than private schools when financial aid is factored in.
Lastly, community colleges would do us a greater favor if they offered voc-tech training for free, in addition to more academic classes. Many students find this to be a better career path.
Many, perhaps most, four year colleges have financial aid. Some of the best colleges are needs-blind. Often, though, first generation students and their families are not aware of this and believe they cannot afford college. Others go to state schools, which can actually cost more than private schools when financial aid is factored in.
Lastly, community colleges would do us a greater favor if they offered voc-tech training for free, in addition to more academic classes. Many students find this to be a better career path.
1
Meanwhile, most of your generation went to school for free or almost free, and I highly doubt you paid much, if anything, for your own education, Mr. Brooks. Pass the social cost of human capital investment back on to the young! Now that's an investment strategy for the future!
I endorse the President's propose allocation with some suggestions; delete the word "college", retain "community" and add "FAMILY". The brief, fleeting joy David describes soon turns to lifelong disappointment when the families realize that the worthless piece of paper their loved on received has NOT provided the student with the skills needed to secure the job of their dreams. It is the shattering of these unattainable dreams that is most heart-wrenching. Most colleges remain in business for one simple reason. If you close the college, you close the town; just like the military bases, post offices and innumerable obsolete and non-contributing government facilities all over our country. I am not advocating that people lose their jobs but I am proposing that we begin to phase out this mindless, counterproductive "busy work" and create real jobs that we desperately need in elder care, health, security, infrastructure, transportation, etc.. The conduit and focus for this endeavor should be families and communities.
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1
What Brooks is hiding, gemli, is his opposition to the increase in capital gains taxes and closing the loophole on inheritance taxes that would pay for free tuition. I wonder how much money Brooks will personally save when Obama's plan is scrapped by the Republican congress? I'm sure that if Brooks does not reside in the atmospheric heights of the 1 percent, he is near the top.
1
From 1960 to 1983 Community College in California was tuition free. Everyone acts like this a brand new idea! And, there was very inexpensive child care available on many campuses both for day and night classes. The argument about graduating on time, however, also seem a little misinformed. Many C.C. students need to attend part-time due to jobs and family responsibilities. What does "on time" mean to someone who goes back to school in their thirties or forties?
1
Is Brooks trying to argue that the cost of college is not a major impediment for people in the middle and lower class, or is he objecting to the Obama proposal because the major goal of Republicans for that past 6 years is to make sure Obama is viewed as a failure?
1
Let's be concise. There is no actual evidence provided by Mr. Brooks that free tuition won't raise the success rate of community college students.
7
Anyone who thinks that the Republican-run Congress is going to surround community college students with "supporting structures" is bonkers. Instead of offering free tuition, why not offer a stipend, a kind of GI Bill for community college students, to cover basic living expenses and education costs, link continuing stipends to performance, and require public service after graduation to re-pay at least part of the assistance. Of course, one would have to be bonkers to think that the Republicans would agree to such a program. They will do nothing to help students attend community colleges. In fact, they will try hard to make it even more difficult for them to get an education .
11
its not to help them, it's to show everyone voting in 2016 that the republicans don't give a crap about anyone but their donors. Same with proposed middle class tax cuts, and everything else on the populist agenda he will propose. They will deny it, and people will vote democrat in 2016 after the media scrutinizes the right for the next two years.
It is hard to look at Community Colleges as an opportunity while Republican Govs are busy destroying our K-12 Public School Systems. How about we spend the money on 2yr. mandatory schooling for politicians. Classes on Democracy, History, Civic Service, How to act like an Adult, Basic Math, Science, Self-Control, and that's just for starters. Personally, I think that' where our biggest knowledge gap is these days.
8
I am a recently retired faculty librarian at a community college. One of the biggest hurdles for students is the cost of textbooks. What is the sense in requiring a $200.00 textbook that will be used for a single semester? I blame the faculty requiring these textbooks and the textbook companies themselves. If President Obama proposed paying for the students’ tuition AND textbooks that would be a great help. Or “encouraging” textbook publishers to be less greedy.
11
When I was in college their was a booming campus business in buying and selling used text books.
I just simply do not understand how someone who seems honest and sincere could write an article that is so completely wrong. Unlike you, David Brooks, my parents were not well-educated, and I did not initially attend a well-known university. I graduated in the lowest quarter of my high school class and went off to a community college, which at the time was free in California. If it wasn't, I wouldn't have been able to attend. I struggled through, graduated with an AA degree, and a few years later, I went on to a BS in engineering and then to Stanford where I received an MS, also in engineering. So I know how important it was that my community college was tuition free, and also how important it was to my classmates. You don't.
After I retired from my aerospace career, I joined the staff at a community college, worked in the library, and I also taught astronomy, novel writing and Greek mythology for a time. I worked a lot with students and saw them struggle with the bills, mostly problems paying tuition because times had changed, and tuition was no longer free. President Obama is really on to something with his free-tuition proposal.
You don't know what you're talking about, David Brooks, you and your cherry-picked statistics. You haven't been there, and you don't have a clue.
After I retired from my aerospace career, I joined the staff at a community college, worked in the library, and I also taught astronomy, novel writing and Greek mythology for a time. I worked a lot with students and saw them struggle with the bills, mostly problems paying tuition because times had changed, and tuition was no longer free. President Obama is really on to something with his free-tuition proposal.
You don't know what you're talking about, David Brooks, you and your cherry-picked statistics. You haven't been there, and you don't have a clue.
22
Mr Sheppard, how many of your classmates who attended community college in the Golden Age of Higher Education in California dropped in and out of school and never completed anything of substance? I would be curious to see the real graduation rates from that period. Of course, many people benefitted from Clark Kerr's master plan, but no tuition was not a necessary nor sufficient condition for success.
As I read Mr. Brooks, his contention is that most students' tuition is already covered by other government programs such as Pell Grants. He argues that government assistance could better be directed to correcting other variables that mitigate students' success.
I find his argument compelling, and I was there. Like community colleges, Berkeley had no in-state tuition when I completed my degrees there.
As I read Mr. Brooks, his contention is that most students' tuition is already covered by other government programs such as Pell Grants. He argues that government assistance could better be directed to correcting other variables that mitigate students' success.
I find his argument compelling, and I was there. Like community colleges, Berkeley had no in-state tuition when I completed my degrees there.
Let's consider the benefits of the Obama plan:
1. With lower costs, more students will attend. Many will not graduate: they may instead transfer to other schools or take the vocation they have learned into the workplace. The education they have received is not wasted.
2. Graduates will have less debt. Wall St. suffers in the short run, but the economy as a whole will benefit from more productive consumers and producers.
3. The benefits of an education will be passed on to the next generation. Communities will be stronger. High schoolers will be more motivated. Lower crime. Greater participation. The level of public discourse will improve.
4. Community colleges will be able to provide more support to their students.
It may not be a panacea, but people are capable of amazing things once given the means. And that's what this plan is about--it's not a handout, it's an investment in our collective futures.
1. With lower costs, more students will attend. Many will not graduate: they may instead transfer to other schools or take the vocation they have learned into the workplace. The education they have received is not wasted.
2. Graduates will have less debt. Wall St. suffers in the short run, but the economy as a whole will benefit from more productive consumers and producers.
3. The benefits of an education will be passed on to the next generation. Communities will be stronger. High schoolers will be more motivated. Lower crime. Greater participation. The level of public discourse will improve.
4. Community colleges will be able to provide more support to their students.
It may not be a panacea, but people are capable of amazing things once given the means. And that's what this plan is about--it's not a handout, it's an investment in our collective futures.
27
There is a madness in simply trying to produce degrees and graduates--the easiest way to achieve "success" is to remove barriers that include students actually achieving good grades and attaining skills. There is pressure by the state in which I work to produce more graduates, ostensibly to improve the state workforce. But this has resulted in students being "pushed through" a system (the state rewards numbers, not quality). There's a telling reality check--students who have to take exams for licensure or to meet requirements for programs such as nursing or education often can't move forward. The administrators of those programs are given grief for not graduating more students.
5
This sounds reasonable enough.
Unfortunately, I think we all know that the Republican controlled Congress won't "scrap this plan" in favor of something more useful. It will simply scrap the plan all together, say it's a waste of money, wait few months, and then find a way to give another tax cut to hedge fund managers or push for some "free-market" educational solution that will benefit for-profit institutions.
Unfortunately, I think we all know that the Republican controlled Congress won't "scrap this plan" in favor of something more useful. It will simply scrap the plan all together, say it's a waste of money, wait few months, and then find a way to give another tax cut to hedge fund managers or push for some "free-market" educational solution that will benefit for-profit institutions.
10
To me there are really 3 parties in Congress. Republications, Democrats and "others" Both Republications and Democrats really believe in their philosophies but then there is the third group. The purpose of the third group is to divide Republications and Democrats as much as possible. Dick Chaney in my opinion belongs in the third group. Your article also seems to come from this third group. You are looking for a perfect solution and in doing so you are willing to forgo smaller meaningful solutions that provide steps to a solution. You are not willing to compromise. You want it all.
I spent 4 years in a local university after which I flunked out. There is no way i would have been better off if I had forgone college even though it ended in failure.
ps I receive my degree 4 years after flunking out by transferring credits from a another university.
I spent 4 years in a local university after which I flunked out. There is no way i would have been better off if I had forgone college even though it ended in failure.
ps I receive my degree 4 years after flunking out by transferring credits from a another university.
3
This article, and all the comments I have read assume that if more kids got degrees, they would all get better jobs. This is false. There are some good jobs going begging in some areas, but nowhere near enough to elevate the millions of Americans stuck in the surplus of minimum wage "service" jobs our post globalization economy now creates. With more degrees we will end up with more over educated people stuck in the same service jobs, but now with more student debt.
We need a massive infrastructure upgrade construction program and a big increase in the minimum wage. Our workers have doubled their productivity in the last few decades, with most of the rewards going to the top 10%. African Americans and Hispanics, and white blue collar workers have all had their opportunities reduced. And much of the low wage work is for tasks that must be done (food producers, janitors, retail clerks, garbage collectors, etc ), and those who do it deserve a living wage.
We need a massive infrastructure upgrade construction program and a big increase in the minimum wage. Our workers have doubled their productivity in the last few decades, with most of the rewards going to the top 10%. African Americans and Hispanics, and white blue collar workers have all had their opportunities reduced. And much of the low wage work is for tasks that must be done (food producers, janitors, retail clerks, garbage collectors, etc ), and those who do it deserve a living wage.
3
Mr. Brooks you need to step aside when it's time for strategy. You are only good for chirpy ideas, but strategy requires the guts to tell the bad guys off and push for actual change. Who are you fooling that all these support programs you propose will pass? Obama knows strategy; stick to your term papers.
4
The slogan for today:
I am not David Brooks.
(or read the top 5 Readers' Picks comments).
I am not David Brooks.
(or read the top 5 Readers' Picks comments).
5
No, Mr. Brooks - we don't need more college graduates working in minimum-wage jobs that don't require a college degree, nor do we need more college dropouts left with enormous tuition bills. Instead, help the job market by limiting Free Trade and illegal's taking jobs from Americans. Our next generation will have enough problems simply finding jobs left that 'robots don't want.'
3
Can someone please explain why senior citizens aren't given any "freebies". We receive Social Security benefits because we worked - money from our working years, not an entitlement. We are not getting illegal immigrant benefits. There are no "give-aways" for the higher costs of medical attention, doctors visits, dental services, increased housing and food costs. The consideration for seniors is given little or no thought my most politicians and the government. Don't they have parents and grandparents. Not everyone is on Medicaid. What happens when we have to live in assisted living communities or worse, nursing homes. Seniors do vote, do make a difference and brought many to "the table" who are now reaping benefits. I just don't see the respect and gratitude when one reaches a certain age - just recognition for "being old" --what is it I am missing?
Thank you for any response.
Thank you for any response.
2
David, David, David, anything offered for the middle class, the little people, is anathema to you.
I am sure you are pounding your breast over the suggestion of a new tax on the $100 million in stocks that passes down to the generations untaxed.
Try reading your old books on Democracy and become a visionary for all instead of a cheerleader for the richest of the rich.
I am sure you are pounding your breast over the suggestion of a new tax on the $100 million in stocks that passes down to the generations untaxed.
Try reading your old books on Democracy and become a visionary for all instead of a cheerleader for the richest of the rich.
5
Those Pell Grants you mentioned have to be paid back. College graduates are already saddled with a tremendous amount of debt. Many owe $100,000 or more and that large debt will keep them out of the middle class for years. Suppose, however, the student has only $50,000 to pay back because he or she got the first two years free. That's much more manageable. The other things you mentioned have to be paid as the student goes and don't become accumulated debt. Give us a break from nonsensical logic.
1
Pell Grants are grants, which don't have to paid back. They are different than student loans. As Brooks pointed out in his piece, students who receive the maximum Pell Grant are, in most cases, already paying zero for community college tuition.
2
Do it all. Including David Brook's proposals.
If billions for the wealthy is not too much, free access to a Community College education is little enough.
If billions for the wealthy is not too much, free access to a Community College education is little enough.
6
My apologies for the recent comment that had nothing to do with Support Our Students but it triggered my concern for senior citizens.
How is the "free tuition" being paid for? Students who are truly motivated to attend college will find a way and maybe the high schools can begin to play a bigger role in extending hours and offering advanced level courses. There needs to be motivation by the prospective student and for those that have to work this may be a big help but in general 2 years at a community college is not really a commitment to pursuing a career but it is just an extension of high school. I still see the middle class getting squeezed and seniors being neglected. Sorry youngsters -- good luck to you when you reach the golden years!
How is the "free tuition" being paid for? Students who are truly motivated to attend college will find a way and maybe the high schools can begin to play a bigger role in extending hours and offering advanced level courses. There needs to be motivation by the prospective student and for those that have to work this may be a big help but in general 2 years at a community college is not really a commitment to pursuing a career but it is just an extension of high school. I still see the middle class getting squeezed and seniors being neglected. Sorry youngsters -- good luck to you when you reach the golden years!
The very notion that college is for all is absurd. Perhaps 10% of the population is suitable for college academia. The remaining 90% would be better served if they learned a skill, a trade, something that would create a lifetime of earning power. Most college graduates end with a job to nowhere, huge debt. Stop the nonsense. Learn a skill. Forget about college. For most, it's a misdirected waste of time..
3
Absolutely, why don't we just give everyone a Harvard diploma upon her/his birth and then we'll have the most educated country on Earth.
You say "learn a skill" but where do you propose people do that if not at community colleges? Yes, more and more community college students are transferring to 4-years, but just as many are gaining workforce skills such as welding, automotive repair, HVAC repair, drafting, etc.
"In short, you wouldn’t write government checks for tuition. You’d strengthen structures around the schools. You’d focus on the lived environment of actual students and create relationships and cushions to help them thrive."
So, David, you would indeed write government checks to cover child care for students? To offset living expenses? To provide remedial tutors? To actually address the problems you cite?
What do you mean "focus on" if not support financially? Focus, hocus, pocus.
So, David, you would indeed write government checks to cover child care for students? To offset living expenses? To provide remedial tutors? To actually address the problems you cite?
What do you mean "focus on" if not support financially? Focus, hocus, pocus.
10
So true David. You're absolutely right about this. Tuition Money alone will not solve the problem.
2
Mr. Brooks almost always reflects the values of his privileged class. Sure, free tuition is not a solution but it will help. Many of the community college students are from poor and middle class families. Yes, they do need other support services;these should be a part of the community colleges' obligations to their students.
5
Well, at least he's offering some ideas and has come up with some points to discuss. Over the weekend (from what I heard at the time), the incredible Marco Rubio managed to simply bludgeon the entire idea saying that it was throwing too much money at bad programs that do not work. I was driving my car when I heard this on the radio and I found myself yelling, "So fix it already." As if the GOP would want to do that. Or could even bear to think in that way. No, just bulldoze the whole thing and walk away. Yeah, that works. And it would. Because it would help the titans of business justify sending more jobs off to the 3rd world because "we can't find educated US citizens" to do the work. Clever, eh?
8
To state the obvious, David Brooks is no Tom Hanks.
Brooks would have us believe students who go to community colleges, but don’t complete the degree requirements (high dropout rates), are somehow a failure or not worth supporting.
I attended Modesto Junior College (1969) for 1-1/2 years - did not ‘graduate’ or complete the degree requirements - but did transfer all credits earned
Then earned B.S. in Biology
Then earned M.S. in Biology
Taught at El Paso Community College (TX)
Post-retirement am tutoring at Front Range Community College (CO)
The point being many students don’t complete degrees but perhaps transfer or get jobs (better jobs) because of the education they received at their CC. A better educated citizenry is a better citizenry, period. A point both Brooks and Obama’s proposal miss.
Brooks wants to ‘focus on living expenses’ - great! Do it!
I was able to go to school because I was on the G.I. Bill and only had to work part-time. Will Brooks and fellow conservatives provide something similar to today’s students?
Brooks wants to ‘subsidize guidance counselors and mentors’ - great! Do it!
Tutoring at FRCC has been trimmed back this semester due to funding. Is the R-led Congress working to increase funding?
Brooks displays the typical Republican approach to any Obama proposal - scrap it - instead of accepting and improving upon it. At least Obama’s proposal is achievable, a step in the right direction - an investment that will pay human dividends!
Brooks would have us believe students who go to community colleges, but don’t complete the degree requirements (high dropout rates), are somehow a failure or not worth supporting.
I attended Modesto Junior College (1969) for 1-1/2 years - did not ‘graduate’ or complete the degree requirements - but did transfer all credits earned
Then earned B.S. in Biology
Then earned M.S. in Biology
Taught at El Paso Community College (TX)
Post-retirement am tutoring at Front Range Community College (CO)
The point being many students don’t complete degrees but perhaps transfer or get jobs (better jobs) because of the education they received at their CC. A better educated citizenry is a better citizenry, period. A point both Brooks and Obama’s proposal miss.
Brooks wants to ‘focus on living expenses’ - great! Do it!
I was able to go to school because I was on the G.I. Bill and only had to work part-time. Will Brooks and fellow conservatives provide something similar to today’s students?
Brooks wants to ‘subsidize guidance counselors and mentors’ - great! Do it!
Tutoring at FRCC has been trimmed back this semester due to funding. Is the R-led Congress working to increase funding?
Brooks displays the typical Republican approach to any Obama proposal - scrap it - instead of accepting and improving upon it. At least Obama’s proposal is achievable, a step in the right direction - an investment that will pay human dividends!
27
We can afford so much for our citizens - at least free CC would be an opportunity to those capitalists who have "resilience." We can't impose birth control or abortions on those who can't afford or simply don't want children. We can't make all high school students and their families flourish with Common Core Curriculum ( a lot of kids don't read year round). But to allow any adult the opportunity to succeed or fail in their educational pursuit does a lot more good than wasting money on the Pentagon's bloated budget! They're telling us in the the teaching field that "resilience" can be taught - let's hope they're right.
2
David, you seem to like the idea of enrollment into Community College and graduating, the students happy, smiling and excited at their commencements. The problem for you seems to be the free tuition which the paying students also will avail of. So whacking the whole idea seems to be your panache for all ideas. Why not make the idea better? How about some suggestions? Just bemoaning is not the way to go. If you do not like the means to the end, put forth alternatives because every idea is a work in progress.
8
The glass of knowledge is always half full and empty when David Brooks meanders into the saloon aka:
"The problem is that getting students to enroll is neither hard nor important. The important task is to help students graduate."
The important task is to help students learn something of "lasting value" ... for a change.
"The problem is that getting students to enroll is neither hard nor important. The important task is to help students graduate."
The important task is to help students learn something of "lasting value" ... for a change.
4
"Congress should take the proposal, scrap it and rededicate the money toward programs that will actually boost completion, that will surround colleges, students and their families with supporting structures. We don’t need another program that will lure students into colleges only to have them struggle and drop out. . ."
This rational, evidence-consistent view is unlikely to prevail, sad to say.
This rational, evidence-consistent view is unlikely to prevail, sad to say.
2
Todays republican dominated congress won't do anything of the sort that would help the poor graduate. At least Obama is doing something. Criticize it, but Brooks alternative would only work in an alternative universe.
6
The community college path seems largely a route for "I am not sure yet what I want to do with my life" or "I need to get some specific education for the work I am doing or wish to do." It seems the vast majority are unlikely to get into a major 4y school. What I think is missing is vocational training based on what jobs are available and aptitude types. The car companies from Germany seem to get it right with apprenticeships and they assist community colleges with curriculum. We need a much greater integration of the business community and community colleges. Along the way, it seems we also need to provide guidance for folks who have children before they're ready to support themselves, who do not have great study habits, typically do not have classically good learning skills, and have little idea about what kinds of jobs they can do. The process of maximally assisting these folks won't be simple but we should be setting achievable goals rather than implying that a 2 y college degree magically amounts to anything. One other transitional process should put as many of these folks to work doing community service as possible. Their unemployment rates are high. Their job skills are low and their ability to work in teams is often undeveloped. Getting them to mature while serving others would be great. The process would be great for our country.
16
This comment is condescending in the extreme. "These folks" include many who eventually transfer into 4 year institutions (the reason for the 'low graduation rates') and who often do better there because they have had the experience of community college. I know this, because I teach at a major university.
Mr Brooks' goal is so completely transparent: kill a simple and achievable idea by calling it names and throwing a half dozen complicated proposals at it.
Mr Brooks' goal is so completely transparent: kill a simple and achievable idea by calling it names and throwing a half dozen complicated proposals at it.
5
I think Brooks accurately reflects a very high drop out rate for community college attendees. The vast majority do not finish. You are correct that some do and they are to be congratulated. Community colleges need however, to deliver better outcomes for the monies spent and that, as Brooks indicates, will require some creative thinking.
In our new economy, families should work together. It's not necessary for high school graduates and young people to move out of their parents home immediately to attend collegs, get a car and live in an off campus apartment. If they select community college closer to home they can opt to work part time and go to sschoolwithin commuting distance and contribute to the family homestead. They would save money on student loans and learn to contribute to the family household. This would help ease the strain on cities which don't have alot of affordable housing stock. These actions, supporting the family cooperative enables students to help and rely on family for childcare, food and housing, pooling family resources will enable them to cut down on their own personal expenses and have the support needed to stay in school. Kind of like airbnb for families, staying at home just until you get on your feet, get upwardly mobile and educated to walk without help.
1
The "secret" to increasing graduation rates is the JOB. And the greatest obstacle to the job is the Republican party and colossal greed at the top. The obstinacy of the Republican party in its opposition to the living wage over decades has created two generations of Americans who despair of ever having a decent job. While I agree that it is not the best use of government money to pay for the advanced education of the wealthy, probably the very best use of government money is the assurance that America's youth have sufficient education to qualify them for valid careers. And the barrier to this has been the refusal of corporate America to pay a living wage to Americans, which has led jobs to be transferred overseas, where not only is there no obligation to pay what America considers a living wage, but there have been fewer environmental restrictions, increased use of fossil fuels in transportation, and the abhorrent distribution of wealth into the hands of the few. With all of the above comes the greatly-increased dropout rate in (especially the urban) schools, and community colleges.
4
David makes some good points. However, I can't imagine the Republican party getting knee deep into solving all of the issues around the needs for community colleges to be more successful. Furthermore, expecting the federal government to reach that deep into the operation of a local organization is beyond futile.
I like the fact that President Obama has raised this issue, as it is one of a number of important remedies towards upward economic mobility for those in the middle and lower economic classes. My hope would be that the President is able to identify enough thoughtful Republicans to discuss and act on initiatives such as this one.
I like the fact that President Obama has raised this issue, as it is one of a number of important remedies towards upward economic mobility for those in the middle and lower economic classes. My hope would be that the President is able to identify enough thoughtful Republicans to discuss and act on initiatives such as this one.
6
With the proposed program, there should be a reduction in costs to the government from unpaid student loans. This reduction could be significant if less of this loaned money ended up in the pockets of for-profit colleges. If a student can go to a community college at no cost, he/she would be less likely to fall for the sales pitches of the over-priced for-profit schools.
9
Perhaps rather than limit "free tuition" to Community Colleges, lets make free tuition available to four year schools too for the first two years.... in exchange for one thing. A commitment by the student to a year (or two) of national service in the Peace Corps, military, or other service organization. That would incentivize students to be productive in school and help our country's glaring service needs. Nothing like serving others to help potential students clarify their own desires, strengths and dreams.
25
While some good points here, is not David one of those periodically harping about personal responsibility? Just how much handholding do we have to do? No matter what the program there will be some, maybe many, who will fall through the cracks. Are they worse off for the effort? I don't think so.
I fear David's ideas would cause even more conservative handwringing about another program, specifically targeted.
Let's accommodate all and then let them, notwithstanding some help that's available, fend for themselves. I'd like to help them, I don't want to raise them.
I fear David's ideas would cause even more conservative handwringing about another program, specifically targeted.
Let's accommodate all and then let them, notwithstanding some help that's available, fend for themselves. I'd like to help them, I don't want to raise them.
2
Brooks, as a republican, doesn't accept the premise that's otherwise shared everywhere within the advanced industrialized world: public education must be free.
As such he's either too dumb or mean to understand that kids drop out of college for financial reasons.
BH
As such he's either too dumb or mean to understand that kids drop out of college for financial reasons.
BH
11
There is no such thing as 'free' education, only education whose cost is shifted from the consumer to the public at large.
3
A major part of America's problem is that people consider "education: to be a consumable. Get back to the reality of the word (e duco---I draw out), and distinguish training from education. We've produced generations of barbarians with expensive degrees. Education can help form a civilized and civil society--note it's absence among the millionaires of Congress.
Brooks's comments might make sense if there was any chance of the GOP "scrapping" the free tuition plan AND replacing it with the initiative he proposes. He knows very well that there is none. Big government conservatives like Brooks lost the battle for control of the GOP after the 2008 election. Now, their proposals have no more chance of getting through a GOP congress than Obama's do. What Brooks has to say is merely a form of daydreaming, nothing more.
10
David Brooks is right on. My wife attended community college and moved to a traditional college after two years and received her BBA. She was in her forties and found many classmates were not serious students who enrolled but did not attend classes.Remedial classes were packed.I graduated from C.U.N.Y. in 1970 which was tuition free . I was the first of my family to attend college. We eventually paid the highest state taxes to N.Y. for many years in return for the opportunity to join the 1%.Mr. Brooks ideas seem to me to be superior to the Obama idea.
2
Um, your college was tuition-free, and you were the first from your family to go. Coincidence?
3
Are the adjunct professors who are responsible for much of the education in the humanities, math, English and usually paid about 2.5K a course w/o benefits going to finally be correctly compensated or is this again not going to be part of the discussion?
OTOH -- there also needs to be a federal college program that provides MOOCs with certificates in things like history, humanities -- for which the credit is acceptable at all universities in the USA. Yale's Roman Architecture, an example of this kind of course, begins on the Coursera platform Feb.4 Prob. 49$ for a certificate. Check out "Coursera Roman Architecture" using your search bar. Prof. Kleiner is first-rate.
OTOH -- there also needs to be a federal college program that provides MOOCs with certificates in things like history, humanities -- for which the credit is acceptable at all universities in the USA. Yale's Roman Architecture, an example of this kind of course, begins on the Coursera platform Feb.4 Prob. 49$ for a certificate. Check out "Coursera Roman Architecture" using your search bar. Prof. Kleiner is first-rate.
4
I have a better idea; reduce the gargantuan, bloated defense budget and give the excess to student programs for university work for kids who can't afford to go. In this day and age; that is a high and growing percentage. Why build more planes that will never fly, that litter our deserts? Why be the weapons manufacturer for the world and deal in carnage, death and the hatred of many besieged nations we have exploited and devastated? Is that an American value, or is it rather a cover for militarism that is not what we stand for.
10
Here’s a concept: if the biggest problem is students not graduating, then how about rewarding those who do graduate by reimbursing them for expenses (tuition, child care, etc.) upon completion of their studies? It might be a motivator...
7
Agreed that it would be a motivator but eating is too. What would the underprivileged student live on until he/she graduated?
4
The most given out grade at community colleges is a W for withdrawn. Does anyone really want to foot the bill for all those Ws?
How about pay your way through CC and if you graduate on time with a 3.0+ grade point average you can attend a 4-year start school for free for 2 years? Make them earn it
How about pay your way through CC and if you graduate on time with a 3.0+ grade point average you can attend a 4-year start school for free for 2 years? Make them earn it
4
That is not the most given out grade.
Mr. Brooks makes it sound as if all that liberals/Democrats have to offer is what he calls Human Capital 1.0 (i.e., giving poor people money) and that Congress (by which he means a Republican Congress) should offer Human Capital 2.0, which emphasizes training and motivational skills and the ability to use and succeed the education and opportunities available to poor people. My recollection is that those sorts of Human Capital 2.0 initiatives were among the most important components of the Great Society and War on Poverty programs of the late 1960's.
They were proposed by Democrats and were as much a part of "liberal orthodoxy" as the notion that "poor people just need money." But Republicans hated them at least as much as transfer payments (precisely because they might actually empower poor people) and they quickly defunded and dismantled them -- and then spread the shibboleth that they didn't work.
If Republicans were to offer to work with Democrats to come up with compromise legislation that included programs that would achieve the Human Capital 2.0 objectives suggested by Brooks, I'd bet that the President and the Democrats would be interested. Problem is that Human Capital 1.0 and Human Capital 2.0 are both more likely to appeal to Democrats than Republicans, and Republicans aren't likely to support or commit resources to either one.
They were proposed by Democrats and were as much a part of "liberal orthodoxy" as the notion that "poor people just need money." But Republicans hated them at least as much as transfer payments (precisely because they might actually empower poor people) and they quickly defunded and dismantled them -- and then spread the shibboleth that they didn't work.
If Republicans were to offer to work with Democrats to come up with compromise legislation that included programs that would achieve the Human Capital 2.0 objectives suggested by Brooks, I'd bet that the President and the Democrats would be interested. Problem is that Human Capital 1.0 and Human Capital 2.0 are both more likely to appeal to Democrats than Republicans, and Republicans aren't likely to support or commit resources to either one.
11
Right now institutions of higher learning as undercutting the K12 systems' ability to maintain standard by granting credit for what can and should be learned in order for a student to have earned a high school diploma rather than the certificate of attendance it has come to represent. For this reason, I have no inclination to subsidize tuition for coursework already offered in high schools. We have paid for that once. Coursework beyond high school is a completely different matter, and should be at the taxpayer expense insofar as it reflects a more extensive requirement of education than when a good K12 education (or less) was the gateway to a job on which one could support a family.
7
Did I miss something? Does the president's proposal for free community college tuition mean that Pell grants and other need-based aid in existence would go away? Seems like if tuition was free then many of the other challenged outlined in Brooks's column could be taken care of with some of the existing programs. (I know that I would've been happy to use my Pell grant for rent and other monthly expenditures instead getting a student loan—on top of a part-time job—when I went to community college.) I agree that tuition is just one part of the puzzle. But scrapping the president's plan altogether also seems short sighted. Why not make tuition free AND figure out a way to support students who are likely to drop out? I don't understand why these things have to be in opposition to one another.
11
What a crock from Brooks regarding dropout rates. They are no different than Ivy League colleges. I recall only 1,500 graduated out of 7,500 in the entering class of 1956 at Cornell. More conservative anti-Obama hogwash from the neocons.
10
Hogwash. The graduation rate for the college my kids went to is 85%, much different than the community colleges and your assertion.
3
7,500. That is twice what it is now.
"Human Capital 2.0 is designed to help people not just enroll but to complete school and thrive."
There's no evidence of any such ideas coming from your side, David Brooks.
"The primary purpose of the GOP these days is to provide tax breaks and other financial advantages (such as not regulating pollution and other socially costly externalities) to their wealthy donor base. All the rest of their platform, all the culture wars stuff, is simply rube bait."
- Mike Lofgren, author of "The Party Is Over."
~
There's no evidence of any such ideas coming from your side, David Brooks.
"The primary purpose of the GOP these days is to provide tax breaks and other financial advantages (such as not regulating pollution and other socially costly externalities) to their wealthy donor base. All the rest of their platform, all the culture wars stuff, is simply rube bait."
- Mike Lofgren, author of "The Party Is Over."
~
12
My wife started her nursing career at the age of 50 with a 2 year community college program. She personally witnessed a lot of what David is talking about.
I see a lot of negativism in the comments from the usual culprits. What's wrong with you people? He's talking about spending money on people who need help. Are you resisting it just because he's putting the emphasis on getting the best return on investment of our tax dollars?
Many of you seem to be more interested in whining about Republicans than exploring new ideas.
I see a lot of negativism in the comments from the usual culprits. What's wrong with you people? He's talking about spending money on people who need help. Are you resisting it just because he's putting the emphasis on getting the best return on investment of our tax dollars?
Many of you seem to be more interested in whining about Republicans than exploring new ideas.
4
Have you been asleep for the last 6 years? Republicans have demonstrated they are only interested in thwarting Obama's agenda, no matter what it is, no matter how moderate it is, and David Brooks knows this well. Obamacare is mostly Romneycare, but to today's Republican Congress, it's simply socialism - which is a gross distortion of the facts.
4
Your a perfect example of what I said in the last two paragraphs. Get over it and focus on making the Democratic Party better.
Thoughts:
> Of the 26 or so industrialized democracies in the world, only one and one only lacks national educations standards.
> Fifty years ago the US was the world leader is all aspects of student ability. Today ...
>Conservatives neither like nor trust education. Educated people can reason, can recognize specious arguments and false analogies, sophistry and other important facets of conservative dialogue.
> Mr. Brooks is correct in implying that many US students are under-prepared for college studies. See also: local control, Texas school texts, etc.
> Of the 26 or so industrialized democracies in the world, only one and one only lacks national educations standards.
> Fifty years ago the US was the world leader is all aspects of student ability. Today ...
>Conservatives neither like nor trust education. Educated people can reason, can recognize specious arguments and false analogies, sophistry and other important facets of conservative dialogue.
> Mr. Brooks is correct in implying that many US students are under-prepared for college studies. See also: local control, Texas school texts, etc.
17
Interesting insight into GOP support for certain policies... when discussing a Texas law that would allow the authorities to criminalize unapproved absence by kids taking an educational vacation with parents. Laura Ingraham said she didn't mind that, so long as it wasn't a federal proposal. Pavlov must have trained her.
I spent almost 10 years working full-time and attending community college part-time. All my classes were paid for with Pell Grants or my work's tuition reimbursement. So it is/was already happening...free community college. 16 years later I'm almost done with a doctorate..all done while working and taking care of a large family. It CAN be done.
5
Good for you! Make lots of money BC Gop Plans on getting rid of what Pell Grants are left. They cut them every year! If you have a child, there won't be Pell!
5
My interpretation is that subsidizing one part of local junior college is not mutually exclusive with helping students with good/non-mediocre/shrewd advice, baby nurseries, supplies, blah, and blah.
Our complicated social-economic obstacle-laden, relatively immobile class culture certainly ought to be made easier/fairer to adapt to/transcend, and help for drop-outs and remedial academic measures are best as individual college bureaucratic functions.
I stole this rebuttal from the Republicans who semi infamously despise interference by complex, intrusive federal laws/regulations, and we can predict that the GOP will bash Obama's concept for whatever they can convincingly demagogue.
Tonight, the President proposes an agenda, and "free tuition"
certainly is stand-up speech rhetoric.
The reports of interest on student debts/loans ought to be answered with low/no interest. So, buy the darn loans, and make low/no interest rates (if not already).
Our complicated social-economic obstacle-laden, relatively immobile class culture certainly ought to be made easier/fairer to adapt to/transcend, and help for drop-outs and remedial academic measures are best as individual college bureaucratic functions.
I stole this rebuttal from the Republicans who semi infamously despise interference by complex, intrusive federal laws/regulations, and we can predict that the GOP will bash Obama's concept for whatever they can convincingly demagogue.
Tonight, the President proposes an agenda, and "free tuition"
certainly is stand-up speech rhetoric.
The reports of interest on student debts/loans ought to be answered with low/no interest. So, buy the darn loans, and make low/no interest rates (if not already).
2
"The Obama plan would largely be a subsidy for the middle- and upper-middle-class students who are now paying tuition and who could afford to pay it in the years ahead."
This is largely the point behind this initiative. Whether it's the symptom or the condition, it's an attempt to address the gross inequalities in access many in this country face when it comes to higher education. Similar to the immigration issue, what would the GOP propose as an alternative beyond "scrapping"?
This is largely the point behind this initiative. Whether it's the symptom or the condition, it's an attempt to address the gross inequalities in access many in this country face when it comes to higher education. Similar to the immigration issue, what would the GOP propose as an alternative beyond "scrapping"?
3
I agree with a lot of Mr. Brooks' comments. However, another question regarding free tuition/books/counseling, is whether eliminating a student's financial stake will lead to a decrease in graduation rates. If a student does not have to make any financial investment, it will be much easier for the student to abandon his/her education down the road. Oftentimes, creating incentives for students to finish their degree (through taking out loans that have to be repaid later) offers motivation for the student to complete their education.
3
Students who have invested financially are walking away as it is, often because the demands of working full time to afford both living and tuition costs make going to school impossible. But you can't eliminate your cost of living, so education goes out the window. Eliminate tuition instead and see what happens to retention rates.
2
As a retired urban community college professor just back from a trip to Cuba I found this column tied some things together. Cuba has a well educated population, and Cubans I heard on the subject believe this prepares them well for the new and better times they hope are now commencing. The fact that all education is free in Cuba is surely a contributing factor to this national asset. I couldn’t help wondering if jobs might move there from Philadelphia, which I know first-hand to be lacking in this respect.
But Cuba and the US have common realities as well: class and race get in the way of equal opportunity. When community colleges were started here the assumption was that now everyone had equal access to higher education. And of course in Cuba the assumption was that class didn’t exist anymore and race didn’t matter. No.
At my community college I came to feel that the interface between faculty and students was a major factor that should somehow be addressed but hardly ever was, and that we (faculty and students both) needed serious attention to intercultural communication.
However, money matters. In a grant project we had there were people—students--who could have helped very much with interface, but couldn’t afford to pay their rent on the amount of money we could pay them. Interface is hard and it would take more than the two years Obama has to make a dent. I’m not complaining about what he’s proposing.
But Cuba and the US have common realities as well: class and race get in the way of equal opportunity. When community colleges were started here the assumption was that now everyone had equal access to higher education. And of course in Cuba the assumption was that class didn’t exist anymore and race didn’t matter. No.
At my community college I came to feel that the interface between faculty and students was a major factor that should somehow be addressed but hardly ever was, and that we (faculty and students both) needed serious attention to intercultural communication.
However, money matters. In a grant project we had there were people—students--who could have helped very much with interface, but couldn’t afford to pay their rent on the amount of money we could pay them. Interface is hard and it would take more than the two years Obama has to make a dent. I’m not complaining about what he’s proposing.
4
Well, apparently Mr. Brooks is wrong, because the plan Obama is proposing works in Tennessee, as he admits.
5
Brooks says most poor students attend community college for free and a few sentences later say 38% don't pay any tuition now. 38% isn't most. I agree completion rates are important and like some of his infrastructure ideas (more child care, living expenses,etc.), but the Republicans (who he is loath to criticize) won't and haven't supported any program helping this group. I think Brooks would be more credible if he discussed the entire political landscape, rather than just advocating Obama's plan be scrapped.
9
If finding people well-paying jobs is the goal, then this money would be better spent on vocational programs in high school.
2
David. You are entitled to your own opinion. Not your own facts. Learn about the TN program. It does all you wish and more. If you are not embarrassed you should be. A fine model you are for higher education.
11
How many think the Republican Congress will do what Mr. Brooks proposes in his last paragraph - besides scrap the President's free tuition proposal, of course? Do you, Mr. Brooks, think there is any chance the Republican Congress will do as you propose? It's fine to disparage "liberal orthodoxy", but are the Republicans offering a viable alternative?
18
JOBS are all the alternative plan the American people need to hear from the Republicans.
2
Too bad they're so much worse at fostering jobs' growth than Democrats' presidents have been over the last 25 years.
1
Ronald Reagan the Employer - the peacetime champion. Estimates of the jobs people found after he reduced the snares coming from D.C. range from 15 to 50 million!
Mr. Brooks should volunteer as a tutor at a community college and then write this column. He needs to understand how difficult it is to teach a single mother in her 30's or 40's how to write a coherent paragraph. So should the president.
5
I think that was pretty clearly one of the points he was making!
1
I think that is exactly what the writer is trying to exemplify -- he is attempting to explain the issue is not that no one can afford college (especially the universally low-priced community colleges), the issue is that we do not have students going in to community college with the foreknowledge and required skills to complete the coursework. The problem is not money, it is preparation, and capacity for the work.
3
If a recent high school grad's writing on social sites (whom I know) is any guide, I do not envy the community college writing instructor's life. Sometime I go back over stuff and pretend I am hearing them say this aloud and I STILL can't make it out.
2
Before free Community College education, first things first:
Step #1: honest recognition that growing numbers of US high school graduates are not well prepared for college, either at the community or university level.
Step #2: fix step #1
Step #1: honest recognition that growing numbers of US high school graduates are not well prepared for college, either at the community or university level.
Step #2: fix step #1
18
Yes, as a college instructor, I can vouch for this point!
1
"It would reduce two years of tuition costs to zero for students with decent grades and who graduate within three years." That's what Brooks says near the top of his piece -- so what's the problem with Obama's plan? It's not free unless you get decent grades and do graduate in a timely fashion.
7
Because it would not change the lousy dropout rate....
3
I hate it when I agree with you.
4
At some point I would like to see the conversation around *why* high school graduates are not sufficiently prepared for the rigors of college. Is it because high schools also focus on this either/or state - college or a "do you want fries with that" kind of job?
I know high schools offer AP courses. I know many students that graduate from HS can and successfully do go on to graduate from a 4 year college, in 4 years no less. So what is the problem? Are high schools only focusing on those AP students and letting all the rest wither on the vine? It seems to me that is what 's happening. If a student isn't already on the honor roll when they enroll in 9th grade, they can kiss their ability to enter a 4 year college good bye. It seems such a waste to me.
I know high schools offer AP courses. I know many students that graduate from HS can and successfully do go on to graduate from a 4 year college, in 4 years no less. So what is the problem? Are high schools only focusing on those AP students and letting all the rest wither on the vine? It seems to me that is what 's happening. If a student isn't already on the honor roll when they enroll in 9th grade, they can kiss their ability to enter a 4 year college good bye. It seems such a waste to me.
3
I have taught in the California community college system for 44 years, and I've learned a few things: remediation works, not for all but for a vast majority of students, and the students I teach who have undergone remediation thrive in the subsequent classes. I remember when community colleges were free here, and now tuition (and $500 a term costs for standard and unchaning textbooks) has priced out many of the people that my college was designed to help. That, and the debt burden that almost all college students are forced to carry, will damage this country socially and economically in ways that we will feel until we fix this system. Mr. Brooks pretends to be humane, but he's talking through his conservative hat.
18
He lives in that alternative conservative universe where it is perfectly find to just make up whatever "fact" fits an argument. I have taught in the California Community College system as well focusing on people with learning disabilities and ESL. In many cases it does not matter if a student gets an AA degree. They learn life skills, how to speak English, how to get certified for a trade and more. Brooks' argument is a classic straw man argument. The increase in costs for California state colleges and universities has been one of the greatest tragedies in my lifetime. I am glad to see this begin to be reversed.
5
Mr. Brooks: This is an attempt at satire, isn't it? And Human Capitol 2.0 gets listed on the N.Y. Stock Exchange. And Congress actually does something... after scrapping Obama's proposal. And we all live happily ever after. Too clever by half.
5
Mr. Brooks cannot bear to bring himself to agree with President Obama so he makes a number of other proposals which would much more difficult to implement.
9
The progressive, universal answer to everything: make it free. The simple answer of making everything free is simply wrong.
Lies. Maybe not _everything_, but certain things are way better supported in the simplest possible way. Republicans most frequently say keep the programs simple, which usually just means grant money to pursue a certain activity on your own terms. And sometimes, this is actually the best thing, and almost always the cheapest. Sometimes not. Democrats more often want to change people's behavior (like graduation rates) with all sorts of contingencies and convolutions like discounts for certain approved books and certain counseling services and certain vocational training programs run by certain companies donating money to their campaigns. Keep it simple and it _might_ work. Make it complicated and all you get is a funded bureaucracy. Ask any unemployed person who's tried to find one of those "job training programs" that are supposedly funded through federal unemployment budgets. They pay for ridiculously specific and archaic programs at vocational schools, for industrial jobs that don't exist anymore. Better to just grant people, can't afford it, funds to go to school to improve their employability, and let them decide for themselves what degree/training to get and under what time-frame. Just because you might not finish community college in a few years doesn't mean you're not serious about it.
In reading many of the comments to David Brooks article, I can only shake my head in disbelief. How did our country succeed all of these years?
One only needs to go back to the 60's and 70's and review the success of the community college system in the state of California. Tuition and fees were free. As a result, the SF Bay area flourished and creatively built one of the most successful work and idea production areas on earth...today called "Silicon Valley." Only when Prop 13 was passed that limited taxes on real estate, did the college system find a need to charge fees and tuition that progressively grew higher and higher.
By all means, community colleges should be free because they provide the very foundation upon which people of all ages can begin or renew their careers, continue lifelong education, and relearn what they should have mastered in too many of our mediocre public high schools. Bravo for a President who thinks out of the box and cares about the American people instead of the richest one percent.
One only needs to go back to the 60's and 70's and review the success of the community college system in the state of California. Tuition and fees were free. As a result, the SF Bay area flourished and creatively built one of the most successful work and idea production areas on earth...today called "Silicon Valley." Only when Prop 13 was passed that limited taxes on real estate, did the college system find a need to charge fees and tuition that progressively grew higher and higher.
By all means, community colleges should be free because they provide the very foundation upon which people of all ages can begin or renew their careers, continue lifelong education, and relearn what they should have mastered in too many of our mediocre public high schools. Bravo for a President who thinks out of the box and cares about the American people instead of the richest one percent.
16
I have 30 years of experience working to retain and graduate low income, first generation college students. Brooks is absolutely correct in advocating Human Capital 2.0. The support surrounding students is critical, including mentoring students to develop and transfer their own talents to the college environment.
6
Too bad Brooks is delusional for thinking the Republicans now in power have any similar notions of how to improve education for low income Americans. They really have no interest in this whatsoever. I'd rather a have a slightly less-baked program than no program at all or (what most Republicans in Congress now want) slashing education budgets and busting teachers' unions.
It would be interesting to see if there is a strong correlation between maturity and academic success.
I suspect that the graduation rates would increase if students were required to do a year of paid community service prior to enrollment. I would be glad to be taxed to subsidize this concept.
I suspect that the graduation rates would increase if students were required to do a year of paid community service prior to enrollment. I would be glad to be taxed to subsidize this concept.
6
"..Half of all community-college students arrive unprepared for college work.."
I think Mr. Brooks just wrote, correctly, that now even much of high school "education" is a sham.
That is because far too many colleges are a sham. (High school teachers got (or, more likely, did not get) their education in.
Many of those colleges are not just a sham; they are corrupt. I explained that in another comment on this piece; or, you can go to my blog inside-higher-ed to read the stories.
I think Mr. Brooks just wrote, correctly, that now even much of high school "education" is a sham.
That is because far too many colleges are a sham. (High school teachers got (or, more likely, did not get) their education in.
Many of those colleges are not just a sham; they are corrupt. I explained that in another comment on this piece; or, you can go to my blog inside-higher-ed to read the stories.
4
Mark,
School is not for everybody. There was nothing for me except long hours of listening to the clock tick. School does not make one smart, educated or interesting. Some of the smartest most interesting I know are people for whom school was a jail; sentence. Schools shouls be for people who can gain something from being there. Junior colleges are training institutes and are a poor substitute for apprentice programs. Remember our last president and his Ivy League education and his total lack of intellectual curiosity. The time has come to rethink education. The time has come to rethink our values . It is 2015 and we have no need for more productivity or bestowing academic credentials on an elite that respects only property and sees education only as a means to an end.
School is not for everybody. There was nothing for me except long hours of listening to the clock tick. School does not make one smart, educated or interesting. Some of the smartest most interesting I know are people for whom school was a jail; sentence. Schools shouls be for people who can gain something from being there. Junior colleges are training institutes and are a poor substitute for apprentice programs. Remember our last president and his Ivy League education and his total lack of intellectual curiosity. The time has come to rethink education. The time has come to rethink our values . It is 2015 and we have no need for more productivity or bestowing academic credentials on an elite that respects only property and sees education only as a means to an end.
2
First of all, education does not create human capital nor does it raise a person's financial status. Second, there is the question of displacement. Women have advanced in the workforce mainly by displacing men in that workforce. There's nothing wrong with education, but to say that education raises a person's financial status is completely untrue. To use the WW2 example to show how education created human capital is to forget that after WW2, the U.S. was the only factory runniing in the world. Today's world is completely different. By pushing females into the main workforce, the social structure of this country has been totally changed and not for the best--crime is up, divorce is up, the family is pretty much not there at all, religion has become a social club empty of any ethical or moral standards, illiteracy in the the U.S. has become a shamefully common standard, and etc. Without a sound social structure, there is nothing one can do to raise the standard of living for this country.
So - the fall of Western civilization is due to women? Heaven forbid a woman might want to work? And use her brain for something in addition to raising children
1
Those dreadful "females," pushing their pushy way into the "main" workplace! How could they have forgotten their true roles as guardians of hearth and home? Tell you what: you stay home and guard standards, and women will continue to strive for their full human, economic, professional, and intellectual development.
The cheers are louder at a community college because it as seen as a personal achievement rather than a rung on a ladder.
3
Ok, David, scrap Obama’s plan? Why am I not surprised? This is the old can’t solve a problem ‘by throwing money at it’---from the 1980s conservative orthodoxy.
Your idea requires major project organization and funding that goes against our politics, with your party in power. You know that already.
Obama’s tuition idea will at least solve 1 problem for those students who lack tuition funds. Let’s do that at least, even if some of our rw radicals may find it offensive.
Once, the US congress used to fund our state universities, keeping tuition low. Does that offend the rw now?
But David, how about a bit of research on how other world democracies still manage to fund low cost college degrees? And also set up good apprenticeships for the non college bound, giving kids a way into adulthood, able to earn a living. Also they have child care subsidies already in place, that we haven’t even started on. And I’m sure they subsidize living expenses and books, somehow.
But that would be too big a deal for the US congress. Here, anything that helps people is a too big socialistic deal. Only subsidizing corporations with tax payer money is not a ‘socialistic big deal.
With your approach David, we just write off our underclass unprepared for college. So blame them, not the school system and growing up poor. You only pretend to give a hoot about needy college students. Another pretentious and transparent column. As comments show, we see thru it.
Your idea requires major project organization and funding that goes against our politics, with your party in power. You know that already.
Obama’s tuition idea will at least solve 1 problem for those students who lack tuition funds. Let’s do that at least, even if some of our rw radicals may find it offensive.
Once, the US congress used to fund our state universities, keeping tuition low. Does that offend the rw now?
But David, how about a bit of research on how other world democracies still manage to fund low cost college degrees? And also set up good apprenticeships for the non college bound, giving kids a way into adulthood, able to earn a living. Also they have child care subsidies already in place, that we haven’t even started on. And I’m sure they subsidize living expenses and books, somehow.
But that would be too big a deal for the US congress. Here, anything that helps people is a too big socialistic deal. Only subsidizing corporations with tax payer money is not a ‘socialistic big deal.
With your approach David, we just write off our underclass unprepared for college. So blame them, not the school system and growing up poor. You only pretend to give a hoot about needy college students. Another pretentious and transparent column. As comments show, we see thru it.
22
Almost all community college students who want to attend college are attending college. As Mr. Brooks states, President Obama's plan would mainly benefit the students who can already afford to pay. Lack of finances is way down the totem pole of reasons why students don't attend college. What needs addressing--agaion as Mr. Brooks states--is support for the students who are already enrolled. Most of them will eventually drop out for a myriad of reasons including lack of adequate child care, poor study habits, lack of a support network, severe lack of reading and writing and computational skills. I'd like to add another piece to the puzzle and that is that we need a national discussion on the importance of obtaining any post-highschool education. Too many students are attending college merely because it is expected of them. A kind of rite of passage. They are poorly motivated, often don't finish what they start, often find themselves five, six, seven years out saddled with unconscionable debt, no real sense of what they want to do with their lives and pitiful attractiveness to would-be employers.
6
So are they able to pay or do they get saddles with unconscionable debt?
1
Carol, The unconscionable debt is incurred in college, not community college.
Brooks misses Obama's intent. It is not about actually doing what he knows Congress will not do. It is about raising the issue at all which no one else was doing at all, until he started talking about it.
A do nothing Congress is a black hole for ideas. At least Obama is floating important ideas and goals out beyond the black hole in the hopes that someday that black hole will be gone and this nation will again begin moving forward instead of backward. He knows he will be long gone but at least he will be able to say, he tried, he kept the nation's eye on the ball. He did not succumb to the black hole of ideas that Congress has become.
A do nothing Congress is a black hole for ideas. At least Obama is floating important ideas and goals out beyond the black hole in the hopes that someday that black hole will be gone and this nation will again begin moving forward instead of backward. He knows he will be long gone but at least he will be able to say, he tried, he kept the nation's eye on the ball. He did not succumb to the black hole of ideas that Congress has become.
12
Good point! I just wish he'd raised a more nuanced, refined issue.
The president's proposal is made purely for political reasons, because it will ever happen. Obama would probably veto Brooks' better idea.
mmpack; I agree. If you think about it any proposal made in a political setting is by definition made for political reasons. The real issue is: Are the reasons good reasons and do they promote the intent of the Preamble of the Constitution and the security and defense of We the People.
With that in mid I choose to follow Obama's ideas over most to those emanating from a party controlled by a leadership that openly says its number one priority is to appose anything and everything proposed by Obama even when it is clear and simple that some, if not most, of his proposals are for good of the nation.
With that in mid I choose to follow Obama's ideas over most to those emanating from a party controlled by a leadership that openly says its number one priority is to appose anything and everything proposed by Obama even when it is clear and simple that some, if not most, of his proposals are for good of the nation.
Brooks here cannot be suspected of feathering his own next, or that of his
children, for his own son has gone to Israel to serve in the
Israeli military.
So far no one, including the NYTs, nor other outlets Brooks opines on,
for example, the New Hour on PBS, where he serves as the
"republican" voice on questions of American policy and politics as
thought the issue interesting or important enough to consider, although
Brooks himself felt it necessary to disclose it.
Such service does have precedents, but there are no statistics readily
available, and are apparently considered no one's business.
children, for his own son has gone to Israel to serve in the
Israeli military.
So far no one, including the NYTs, nor other outlets Brooks opines on,
for example, the New Hour on PBS, where he serves as the
"republican" voice on questions of American policy and politics as
thought the issue interesting or important enough to consider, although
Brooks himself felt it necessary to disclose it.
Such service does have precedents, but there are no statistics readily
available, and are apparently considered no one's business.
1
Daniel Patrick Moynihan: "We are feeding the sparrows (pigeons?)by feeding the horses." The President's plan will aid educators not students. Community colleges will do what the four-year institutions have done - soak up the federal aid by raising tuition and rerouting the money to faculty and administrators. Mr. Brooks may want to kill the proposal as his NYT detractors suspect, but his ideas have purchase. Mr. Obama's do not.
5
The idea of a free or nearly free education beyond high school is an old tradition in this country which was the purpose of the numerous land grant colleges established since the mid 19th century across this country. It assured that many millions of people received advanced degrees for generations who could not afford to attend colleges, otherwise. It should be noted that until the middle of the 1800's the only competent engineering education available was at West Point Military Academy, and admissions to the Ivy League was restricted to the children of the very wealthy. The rapid expansion of industry and of the nation could not be supported by this limited system, it was the new state and local institutions which provided the educated people needed and those schools were inexpensive and affordable to nearly all. After World War II, the country made it a policy to provide college educations to all who could benefit but by the time Reagan had become President the notion that the public should not be funding people's college degrees became popular. We face a global economy in which the largest potential markets and labor markets are not the U.S., and better educated people could become an important step in securing the U.S. place in the future.
11
Surprise, surprise - to me - I agree wholeheartedly with David Brooks.
You're right Mr Brooks on all grounds here. most middle class families can afford CC tuitions and there is already help for the poor to pay. The drop-out rate is the problem - use the money to address that.
You're right Mr Brooks on all grounds here. most middle class families can afford CC tuitions and there is already help for the poor to pay. The drop-out rate is the problem - use the money to address that.
5
David, it a pity that you lack any understanding of the inherited sense of hopelessness. Of course, you grew up in an atmosphere very different. Our President’s insight of our education dilemma is to offer hope for those who had no prior hope at all.
12
There's not much we can do for someone who is hopeless. But that's a false issue anyway. As Mr. Brooks states, most students who want to attend community college are already attending. President Obama could do better by addressing those students, helping them overcome the obstacles that prevent them from succeeding. I'm more concerned about giving students "false hope," welcoming them into the community college environment and them basically forgetting about them. That's the biggest problem. I suspect that most community college executives, however, have misplaced values when it comes to servicing the students they already have "in fold." They're more interested in numbers and adding to them. Rather than trying to emulate a business model--"growing" the attendance figures--these educational leaders should address their already existing "customers," helping them realize their dreams of self-betterment. By the way, I find ad hominem attacks counterproductive to reasoned discourse on controversial issues.
3
Mr. Brooks, it's too bad that you're not more inclusive: All your ideas in addition to free tuition, instead of that either/or scenario you paint.
The issue I have with your statement that community college is already free via Pell Grants is meaningless. Students' ability to qualify for a Pell Grant is still based on their parent's income, not their own (unless they are independent, which many/most high school graduates are not.) And as we all know, just because you have $X income, does not mean you are able to pay for your child's college tuition, much less the books, lab fess and other costs associated with college.
And of course, you advocate scrapping Obama's plan. But seriously, who's going to take up your proposal? No, as a nation, we really can't wait for "the exact perfect pan" to move forward. We're already long overdue for moving forward as a nation. Instead of being so intransigent, perhaps you should take a "Compromising 101" course along with all the other intransigents and start working for the whole nation and not just the .01%.
The issue I have with your statement that community college is already free via Pell Grants is meaningless. Students' ability to qualify for a Pell Grant is still based on their parent's income, not their own (unless they are independent, which many/most high school graduates are not.) And as we all know, just because you have $X income, does not mean you are able to pay for your child's college tuition, much less the books, lab fess and other costs associated with college.
And of course, you advocate scrapping Obama's plan. But seriously, who's going to take up your proposal? No, as a nation, we really can't wait for "the exact perfect pan" to move forward. We're already long overdue for moving forward as a nation. Instead of being so intransigent, perhaps you should take a "Compromising 101" course along with all the other intransigents and start working for the whole nation and not just the .01%.
19
I am a California community college instructor, and after 12 years of teaching I can vouch for everything Mr. Brooks says. While I think President Obama's idea for providing free tuition is a noble gesture, in fact very few if any students in my classes have ever complained that tuition was their primary hurdle. The textbooks easily cost twice as much as tuition. Many who drop out do so not because of the tuition costs, but because they must work in full-time jobs just to pay for housing, food, transportation and child care, and they find that they just don't have enough time to study. Even if they do, because the community colleges are so oversubscribed (in California, at least), they find it difficult to successfully enroll in the classes needed to graduate, which requires them to spend 4-6 years of effort for a nominally 2-year degree. Furthermore, an increasing percentage of my students simply don't have adequate grounding in writing and mathematics to meet even C-grade college standards, and also don't have very good study skills. A large number of students spend the first year of community college taking remedial courses just to make up these deficits, which is fine, except that it costs them a year of effort and money which doesn't count towards a degree. Yes, having tuition costs waived would certainly be a good step towards making college a reality for many. But by itself, I don't believe it will result in a significant increase in graduation rates.
66
"very few if any students in my classes have ever complained that tuition was their primary hurdle". But what about the students who are NOT there. You have no idea why they're not. I would hazard a guess that it is because of the expense!
4
"Yes, having tuition costs waived would certainly be a good step towards making college a reality for many"
Enough said. Low graduation rates are partly due to transfers into higher institutions, partly to the perfectly reasonable fact that some students come to gain specific skills that don't require graduation.
Enough said. Low graduation rates are partly due to transfers into higher institutions, partly to the perfectly reasonable fact that some students come to gain specific skills that don't require graduation.
What we need is vouchers for all K-12 students,so students and parents get more involved.More competition would force monopoly govt schools to improve or go out of business.Then,we can talk about community college.
Real capitalist proposal--make money out of failing students.
8
Des, real teachers union proposal - make money failing students and keep asking for more.
Fifty percent (50%) of kids in public school live in poverty. Is that the fault of teachers or their unions? Poverty, hunger, absence of home-stimulation degrade learning opportunities.
I favor the free tuition plan but Brooks identifies some real challenges. The free tuition plan has the virtue of allowing students a lot more time for study than if they have to work more hours to afford enrolling in college. That difference can result in a full grade point average improvement over the two years of work. The huge change in the responsibility of students from high school to college is going from a rigidly structured experience dictated by schools and teachers to the loosely structured experience that requires students to manage themselves.
There is year or two of maturing that goes one after high school which makes that self management requirement a big challenge, and leads to flunking out or quitting after a couple of schools terms.. Many students enter trade and two year vocational programs in their early to mid twenties after they have reached maturity, at which time many have responsibilities which would make the free tuition very useful. In addition, the costs of child care and the need for remedial education often pose obstacles to graduating.
There is year or two of maturing that goes one after high school which makes that self management requirement a big challenge, and leads to flunking out or quitting after a couple of schools terms.. Many students enter trade and two year vocational programs in their early to mid twenties after they have reached maturity, at which time many have responsibilities which would make the free tuition very useful. In addition, the costs of child care and the need for remedial education often pose obstacles to graduating.
2
Republicans are against everything Brooks suggests. If Obama had proposed giving community college students living expenses, Brooks probably would have written an article claiming that free tuition was simpler, more equitable, and more effective.
18
Best would be some type of tax addition,for registered Democrats,to support this welfare program.Then,everyone would be happy.
And Republicans could be required to support the military spending they are so fond of! Then everyone would be happy!
2
2 things - we know what the "j" stands for in JRJ90620.
@Rivertrip - you are absolutely right that Congress would never do anything Brooks is suggesting. As typical with his columns, everything is the fault of liberal orthodoxy from the 70's, and propose solutions that are completely unrealistic, and write the column pretzel logic.
Who else would suggest that community college costs are too high, leading many to drop out and criticize a proposal to ease the impact of those costs?
@Rivertrip - you are absolutely right that Congress would never do anything Brooks is suggesting. As typical with his columns, everything is the fault of liberal orthodoxy from the 70's, and propose solutions that are completely unrealistic, and write the column pretzel logic.
Who else would suggest that community college costs are too high, leading many to drop out and criticize a proposal to ease the impact of those costs?
1
I went to a community college in the early 70s for a technical degree. What caught my attention was how your description of them differs so much from my experience then. It was a smaller school in a smaller city and there was a great sense of community and the relationships developed there lasted a lifetime just like they would at a university. The students were all in their 20s with the exception of a few veterans who were a bit older. No one had children. The cost was low; $180.00 per quarter reduced to $80.00 for me after I found I qualified for a subsidy. There was one quarter per year that was called a 'work block' when you worked at a company in the field you were studying. The courses where not easy because they were technical in nature; Physics, calculus, and machine design related courses. We started with about 60 students and ended up with a program graduation of about 30. I would guess half ended with a GPA of 2.5 or less. I landed a job at General Electric that paid the equivalent of $60K in 2015 dollars with good benefits. I say all this to point out how different the culture is now than 40 years ago. A student from the 70s would hardly recognize the institutions you describe. I agree that the difficult thing will be the requirement of a 2.5 GPA and graduation in three years. I would guess those requirements would be the first to be lessened. You pointed out the crux of the issue. It's not the tuition help now, but the support structures that are needed.
5
Good idea, Mr. Brooks. A specific example: A Pima Community College physics professor and his colleague from the University of Arizona (before they retired) were running a special weekend "conference" to top off their semester during which they had been tutoring students with promise but little time to study (with jobs and families absorbing their energy). The students often lacked self-esteem and confidence. The professors coached dozens of people through the difficult business of giving papers, essential for scientists but often a stumbling block for students. (High schools do not teach students how to present their ideas before colleagues.) These professors did not have time to apply for grants. Their model is worthy of funding.
5
There was a time when in states like New York and California a tuition-free college education was guaranteed to all talented high school graduates, and when, here in New York we had a public school system that was one of the finest in the world. That era produced a huge talent pool that numbered many Nobel Prize winners among the recipients of that public good. All that occurred during a time when a college education was largely the privilege of only those who could afford tuition at private colleges. In additon, our system, unlike many in Europe, did not forever seal the fate of students who could not initially "make the cut;" ours was a land of second chances where late bloomers could flourish. Open enrollment changed everything, guaranteeing access to some form of higher education to all high school graduates regardless of their ability, often in spite of a virtual inability to read or do simple mathematics. Ours has become a society of smoke and mirrors where no cost is too great to create the illusion rather than the reality of social equality. A land where pacification programs dominate as substitutes for the kinds of public policies that would make a real difference.
6
David Brooks' negative reaction to President Obama's proposal for free tuition at community colleges is illogical and incorrect. While he complains about the graduation rates, the free offer only applies, as he notes, to those who do graduate in three years. His observation that most students get grants is also false. My local community college here in Suffolk County charges nearly $5,000 per year for tuition with only a third getting such grants. Most students are therefore forced to live at home to save money and also work 20-40 hours/week to pay for their education. Both of these have been shown to lead to lower performance and very high drop out rates. My research and that of others has shown that social integration is the major factor in leading to academic success. Students who commute from home and work have little or no opportunity to become integrated into campus life and thus to thrive academically at a community as well as many four-year colleges. Any proposal that provides significant financial relief would allow students to invest in and be integrated into their college community with the success that entails.
4
I have found that what one has to pay for, either by time or money, feels more valuable that that which one obtains for free. Is it not possible, nay probable, that this applies to education as well?
As a college student (a long time ago, but I still remember it) one of the factors that drove me to work harder was the fact that my parents were sacrificing to keep me in school and I did not want to waste their resources. The fact that my own money, both then and in the future with loan payments to come due, was another incentive to keep on. I saw students of full athletic scholarships for hockey (the only way Clarkson College had free tuition then) who had much less incentive to keep up their scholarly activities, since they had no skin in the game.
It is for this reason that I oppose Mr. Obama's proposal. I think the same money should be utilized to fund low or no interest loans to allow the students to attend college, knowing that their future earnings would go towards the costs they are incurring now. This would provide a powerful incentive to succeed, while removing current financial worries.
As a college student (a long time ago, but I still remember it) one of the factors that drove me to work harder was the fact that my parents were sacrificing to keep me in school and I did not want to waste their resources. The fact that my own money, both then and in the future with loan payments to come due, was another incentive to keep on. I saw students of full athletic scholarships for hockey (the only way Clarkson College had free tuition then) who had much less incentive to keep up their scholarly activities, since they had no skin in the game.
It is for this reason that I oppose Mr. Obama's proposal. I think the same money should be utilized to fund low or no interest loans to allow the students to attend college, knowing that their future earnings would go towards the costs they are incurring now. This would provide a powerful incentive to succeed, while removing current financial worries.
2
US citizens should be outraged at such a stupid proposal - giving away higher education for free to anyone of 'need' with a 2.5 GPA.
What is need? Will it be like the family of 4 making $94,000 a year? Will it be anyone that can prove on paper (gov't paper like IRS filings, what a joke) that they are too poor to pay? Will it be based on 'diversity' making African Americans the biggest recipient group (see case from U of MI where the poor white kid from a MI slum got turned away in favor of the rich Black kid from Birmingham MI - and the Supreme Court agreed!?)
And what, pray tell, is a 2.5 GPA? This is supposed to be proof of academic achievement?! A C+?!
What happens when the kid drops out as they only went to get a piece of paper vs. learn? What happens when every Tom, Dick, and Harry start up their own community colleges, virtual of course, and steal billions from the US gov't with bogus grades and diplomas?
What happens when a kid drops out - just under 80% drop out of community college. Will they have to repay or will they go on the every growing, inexcusable entitlement ride?
Higher education is a privileged earned by kids that have tolled for years in a school system that is mediocre at best (talking K-12). It is not, and should never be, a 'right.' Obama has seriously lost his mind, but then ...
What is need? Will it be like the family of 4 making $94,000 a year? Will it be anyone that can prove on paper (gov't paper like IRS filings, what a joke) that they are too poor to pay? Will it be based on 'diversity' making African Americans the biggest recipient group (see case from U of MI where the poor white kid from a MI slum got turned away in favor of the rich Black kid from Birmingham MI - and the Supreme Court agreed!?)
And what, pray tell, is a 2.5 GPA? This is supposed to be proof of academic achievement?! A C+?!
What happens when the kid drops out as they only went to get a piece of paper vs. learn? What happens when every Tom, Dick, and Harry start up their own community colleges, virtual of course, and steal billions from the US gov't with bogus grades and diplomas?
What happens when a kid drops out - just under 80% drop out of community college. Will they have to repay or will they go on the every growing, inexcusable entitlement ride?
Higher education is a privileged earned by kids that have tolled for years in a school system that is mediocre at best (talking K-12). It is not, and should never be, a 'right.' Obama has seriously lost his mind, but then ...
2
I think its cheaper than prison.
2
My State of the Union address related to this issue would include mandatory birth control for unmarried teenagers of both genders having sex, and labor camps in Afghanistan or Somalia and/or castration for fathers of children of all unwed mothers who don't provide child support $. Perhaps seemingly a harsh for the liberal I am, but this plan might just work in giving millions of American kids a better chance of getting the support and educational opportunities they need to have a better life. I would also send the profiteering higher ed CEOs and bankers for a several year sabbatical in same labor camps.
1
Mr. Brooks' recommendation is spot on. It is also extremely Socialist in its approach. The nations which focus their aid on childcare, transportation, etc are, no surprise, the Western European countries with the strongest social safety nets.
All reason, logic, and evidence indicates that these kinds of services make a huge impact. What is a better use of government funds? Offering childcare and job training to impoverished families or welfare checks?
The problem, of course, is the impossibility of getting any form of effective social services past the "poverty is a sin" caucus (the Republican Party) and Mr. Brooks' "conservativeness" gives the false impression that this possibility is anywhere near feasible, as opposed to a laughing matter given our short sighted, reactive, and, sorry, stupid elected officials.
The sad part is, Mr. Obama is being the realist here. The types of policies most likely to pass Congress are ones which help everyone, including the Middle Class (which is not so bad, actually - look at Medicare and Social Security's longevity and support). But also programs that are simple, threadbare, and once again, barely effective. Scraps the GOP is willing to concede to the poor.
Programs which offer effective support services to the general public are the most likely to be effective and popular. This is not a priority for the party which wants Americans to hate their government and drown it in a bathtub.
All reason, logic, and evidence indicates that these kinds of services make a huge impact. What is a better use of government funds? Offering childcare and job training to impoverished families or welfare checks?
The problem, of course, is the impossibility of getting any form of effective social services past the "poverty is a sin" caucus (the Republican Party) and Mr. Brooks' "conservativeness" gives the false impression that this possibility is anywhere near feasible, as opposed to a laughing matter given our short sighted, reactive, and, sorry, stupid elected officials.
The sad part is, Mr. Obama is being the realist here. The types of policies most likely to pass Congress are ones which help everyone, including the Middle Class (which is not so bad, actually - look at Medicare and Social Security's longevity and support). But also programs that are simple, threadbare, and once again, barely effective. Scraps the GOP is willing to concede to the poor.
Programs which offer effective support services to the general public are the most likely to be effective and popular. This is not a priority for the party which wants Americans to hate their government and drown it in a bathtub.
11
If Democrats have good ideas that make economic sense, it should be possible to sell them to the public. Whining about Republicans won't accomplish that,
Jerry, notice the charge against short sighted, reactionary, and stupid elected officials was non-partisan. Democrats are absolutely part of the problem. Look at how much traction populists like Elizabeth Warren and Sherrod Brown get by speaking economic sense (Brown in a purple state!). However, that doesn't take away from the fact that Republicans offer roadblocks and sabotage to progress. Who is going to support free childcare when the prevailing poverty narrative is the Welfare Queen?
1
With some regret, I'm afraid I have to agree completely with this argument. I was enthralled with Obama's proposal but once in a while David Brooks hits the mail on the head. I teach in a university as an adjunct & I see many students who are there on tuition aid & scholarships & they are the first members of their families too. I've known students who have traveled to my snow-bound city for such tuition assistance who share winter coats. In Syracuse that takes some daily strategizing & some artfulness too lest your peers discover it. I have a colleague who keeps bread & peanut butter in her office for her art students with the tacit agreement that they can go make a sandwich for themselves - otherwise they won't eat. There is some unspoken assumption that if you just get the tuition all will be well.
2
Sorry David, but your piece is disingenuous at best. You claim that the best course is to get rid of free community college education in favor of supporting programs to get people to finish. BUT- you need to have tuition free to even get poor people to start the process of enrolling to begin with.
Do not conflate progressive ideas with failing the poor... it is the GOP who fails the poor- every single day and with every breath they take. Moreover, the GOP would NEVER support broader access to higher education because they fear an educated populace- educated and informed middle class people generally do not vote republican. The GOP relies on the low information voter and they milk those votes using Fox and Limbaugh, etc extremely well.
Do not conflate progressive ideas with failing the poor... it is the GOP who fails the poor- every single day and with every breath they take. Moreover, the GOP would NEVER support broader access to higher education because they fear an educated populace- educated and informed middle class people generally do not vote republican. The GOP relies on the low information voter and they milk those votes using Fox and Limbaugh, etc extremely well.
7
"..The important task is to help students graduate.." No, the important task is to help students acquire an "education", not a just "graduation".
This lack of content in so many "degrees" - whether they are high school degrees or college degrees - can be traced to the greed of colleges. (I have seen this up close. I'm a former math professor.)
Here, in a nutshell, is what happens - and it robs high school graduates of the education they need to do well, whether it be at work, or in college. (Fix this and you will fix much American education, from K-12, to college.)
Universities are motivated to produce faux-PhDs. Many of these PhD's become “professors” at colleges where many teachers are taught their subject. (Many of those who don't make it to the even faux-PhD become community college teachers.)
Of course, these professors’ students (read "future teaches", too) don’t learn. Thus, they can't teach - no fault of their own.
So while grant money and tuition from the students and their parents - and tax money from us - trickles up, UNeducation trickles down.
I have read the administration,s new college rating rules and teacher preparation rules, and I believe that they want to fix the problem. Of course, the problem is unaccountability.
(Cases of all of this are described on my blog under the category “Regional State Schools – What Does a Future High School Teacher Get? Look Here” and in the post “No Jobs for Phd’s….”. My blog is inside-higher-ed .)
This lack of content in so many "degrees" - whether they are high school degrees or college degrees - can be traced to the greed of colleges. (I have seen this up close. I'm a former math professor.)
Here, in a nutshell, is what happens - and it robs high school graduates of the education they need to do well, whether it be at work, or in college. (Fix this and you will fix much American education, from K-12, to college.)
Universities are motivated to produce faux-PhDs. Many of these PhD's become “professors” at colleges where many teachers are taught their subject. (Many of those who don't make it to the even faux-PhD become community college teachers.)
Of course, these professors’ students (read "future teaches", too) don’t learn. Thus, they can't teach - no fault of their own.
So while grant money and tuition from the students and their parents - and tax money from us - trickles up, UNeducation trickles down.
I have read the administration,s new college rating rules and teacher preparation rules, and I believe that they want to fix the problem. Of course, the problem is unaccountability.
(Cases of all of this are described on my blog under the category “Regional State Schools – What Does a Future High School Teacher Get? Look Here” and in the post “No Jobs for Phd’s….”. My blog is inside-higher-ed .)
2
For once I agree with Mr. Brooks. Another problem with 'free' is this makes it easier to just drop out because of its perceived lower value.
I especially agree that students need the personal contacts at community colleges. As a professor and academic advisorat the University of Pittsburgh, I make it a point to reach out to students who are not doing well or who show a change in performance. I don't have the numbers or set-up to make a social sciences study, but anecdotally I can think of many past students who I have helped stay in school and graduate. It is much easier to feel a connection to a person who cares than to an overall impersonal institution.
I especially agree that students need the personal contacts at community colleges. As a professor and academic advisorat the University of Pittsburgh, I make it a point to reach out to students who are not doing well or who show a change in performance. I don't have the numbers or set-up to make a social sciences study, but anecdotally I can think of many past students who I have helped stay in school and graduate. It is much easier to feel a connection to a person who cares than to an overall impersonal institution.
2
Perhaps M. Brooks has forgotten that these community college students are a subset of the Americans for whom he and his GOP compatriots have little empathy?
4
I think the real problem with Obama's proposal is that he perpetrates the elitist myth that college is the only road to success, ignoring the ongoing need for apprenticeships and general "trades" education, which provides solid middle-class wages and job stability.
28
Trades education is a lot of what happens in community college, and even more could happen there.
1
College may not be the only road to success, but it's the surest.
Many community college offer exactly the type of trade training of which you speak. It's not an either/or.
As a former adjunct instructor at a community college (now retired), I can agree with Brooks' assessment. Far too many of those I tried to teach were woefully ill-prepared for college work. Many could not write a coherent sentence, let alone a whole paragraph, on a quiz. The poor preparation of some local high schools must be blamed for this. For many, the ultimate "social promotion" was their high school diploma. How sad!
5
Brooks ignores an unfortunate truth: one contributor to the low graduation rate among Pell recipients is the fact that an uncomfortable percentage are less interested in attending school than cashing the refund check from their tuition. Directing less money from tuition and more to "human capital 2.0" will exacerbate this problem. Meanwhile, middle class families will still be left without help.
College Education, as all prior years dedicated to prepare for it, ought to be not only free but a 'salary' for the students, provided they can demonstrate the hard work and dedication required to completion, as if it were an actual job. At graduation time, some help may be required to find a suitable employment, and at a level only dreamed of by too many. This way, whatever the cost, is likely affordable as the U.S. is a wealthy country; the best investment one can think of is in its own people. But for that to occur, a clear vision and the courage to carry it through is needed. Before anybody cries 'utopia', it is being done elsewhere already. And no drop-outs to speak of.
Since for those poor enough for a Pell grant, there is no need for the free tuition.
Many of the other proposals here seem designed to make college work free. By the time I graduated, I had three kids and a wife to support. Working as much as possible was the only option. Perhaps my grades would have been better were full support available. Perhaps the college experience would have been richer. But when I see people working to get the resources to enrich their lives, I seen the seeds of life success at work.
Instead of eliminating work, we should make it a requirement for all who get any kind of support, especially public support. Working for ones own success is a winning strategy.
Many of the other proposals here seem designed to make college work free. By the time I graduated, I had three kids and a wife to support. Working as much as possible was the only option. Perhaps my grades would have been better were full support available. Perhaps the college experience would have been richer. But when I see people working to get the resources to enrich their lives, I seen the seeds of life success at work.
Instead of eliminating work, we should make it a requirement for all who get any kind of support, especially public support. Working for ones own success is a winning strategy.
1
Not everyone should go to college and high school does a good job of identifying those who should and should not go. Mr. Obama's proposed program is an expensive boondoggle that is not needed and worse; Mr. Brooks wants to turn college into more of a nanny venture than it already is.
Young people need to understand that it is OK not to go to college or at least to wait until you are ready and want to succeed. Pushing kids to finish in the bottom of the class or to drop out is counterproductive. It's like encouraging sex before one is ready to marry. It sounds very good but ...
Young people need to understand that it is OK not to go to college or at least to wait until you are ready and want to succeed. Pushing kids to finish in the bottom of the class or to drop out is counterproductive. It's like encouraging sex before one is ready to marry. It sounds very good but ...
1
While we may not always agree, I think you are spot on with this one David. I've taught in a community college for the past 10 years (as an adjunct). It's a minefield. Most of my students struggle with work, kids, family, and an ambiguous campus support system. Somewhere in all of that they are supposed to find a way for serious academic achievement. Is it any wonder the drop out rate? I would add one more alternative strategy to your wish list. Pay for more full time faculty. There is no substitute for the commitment, attention and support a full time faculty member can provide. Part time faculty who scurry all over town to various campuses (as I do) in attempt to cobble together a teaching career are just as diluted in their focus as the student they are attempting to teach.
4
Mr. Brooks wisely addresses an issue that's too often overlooked. And that's the reality that much more is needed than free aid/assistance-- including free community college tuition--to make it more likely that those in need thrive. Metaphorically, aid without support is like placing a tomato plant into the ground then ignoring it expecting it to grow. As opposed to placing a tomato plant into the ground and tending to its other needs like food and water so it can reach its full potential. Everyone desiring a community college education with special needs not only requires assisstance with their other life challenges, but also help with heart. Too often government assistance and the land of documents is cold lacking in understanding and compassion. The kind of caring and personal touch that uplifts. The opposite of what someone requiring help needs to make it through.
4
"In the first place, community college is already free for most poor and working-class students who qualify for Pell grants and other aid. In 2012, 38 percent of community-college students had their tuition covered entirely by grant aid and an additional 33 percent had fees of less than $1,000."
What? Not in my experience.
What? Not in my experience.
1
Wolfgang Pauli summed it up best with his comment about a lame thesis. This is not even wrong.
I support President Obama's initiative, but this piece gives me a lot to think about. I would like to know more about the Tennessee experience. In particular, I would like to know about the impact of free community college on high school graduation rates. Some years ago I taught in an impoverished urban high school. The vast majority of my students did not even consider college an option. Perhaps, as Mr. Brooks indicated, the "free" tag might inspire some high school students to dream a little larger.
Apparently both the President and David Brooks see challenges faced by community college students struggling to improve job skills in a changing economy, differing only in the specific needs to address.
If only Brooks was a member of Congress, he might propose a bill to address the specific need; this after all is the way the government is supposed to work. Brooks is not a member of Congress, however, only a columnist who promotes the political philosophy of one segment of members. What can we expect these members to do? My expectation is they will act as Brooks advises and scrap the President's plan, using the arguments put forth, while proposing none of the ideas put forth.
Not one of your better columns, David Brooks.
If only Brooks was a member of Congress, he might propose a bill to address the specific need; this after all is the way the government is supposed to work. Brooks is not a member of Congress, however, only a columnist who promotes the political philosophy of one segment of members. What can we expect these members to do? My expectation is they will act as Brooks advises and scrap the President's plan, using the arguments put forth, while proposing none of the ideas put forth.
Not one of your better columns, David Brooks.
1
Perhaps Brooks could suggest for other what his own son has done:
gone to Israel to serve in the Israeli military. THe fact that one
hears of such recently suggests it's time for Americans to know
more about this. Who thinks Americans have no right to know?
gone to Israel to serve in the Israeli military. THe fact that one
hears of such recently suggests it's time for Americans to know
more about this. Who thinks Americans have no right to know?
1
Taking the social program route makes no difference. The pie is the same size either way.
It irks me when people say there are so many scholarships and assistance programs out there, and all you have to do is look for them. Maybe we don't want to spend time looking? Let's toss that red tape.
It irks me when people say there are so many scholarships and assistance programs out there, and all you have to do is look for them. Maybe we don't want to spend time looking? Let's toss that red tape.
More pandering. Not everyone is college material. Why should hard working parents trying to put their kids thru college, have to pay for college for others?
"It is locked in 1970s liberal orthodoxy." You just had to use the word liberal didn't you? For that reason alone this column is not worth reading. Education is far too important to any society to reduce it to partisan labels.
4
The joy which Republican reactionaries experience when they use the word, "liberal", as an epithet occurs only because it gets a rise out of Democrats. Why not wear the label proudly, pointing out to the speaker that yesterday's centrist is today's liberal, and yesterday's conservative is today's right-wing radical?
2
This idea, with some reflexive appeal, deserves a second look. There has been for some time more "pull" from above than "push" from below for people to go to college. So making it free may be an inducement to bring more people into the educational system, but fewer with the desire to be students. What is given and not wanted or earned is usually devalued. Thus, the numbers show that the growth in post-secondary enrollments corresponds with a decline in educational performance; further increases will lead to sharper declines. The only beneficiary are the colleges, public and private, for-profit and not-for-profit. I have no idea about a suitable answer, but it may involve some combination of need, desire, ability, and capability. But we must acknowledge the difference in historical experience and cultural values between vets returning from WWII getting G.I. Bill of Rights help and today's youth, some of whom suffer deprivations, some of whom do not, but whose attitude toward education is, in too many instances, stunted by uninspiring teachers, and family and community environments which do not encourage education or excellence in education as opposed to job training and LCD competence.
3
Mr. Brooks, have you ever really been inside a community college? Or a real community, for that matter?
If Obama is for it a true conservative must be against it. All the things that keep people from achieving their goals and dreams that you mention are results of 35 years of stripping away the various supports to middle class and poor Americans.
Union busting, manufacturing jobs sent overseas, abysmal lack of infrastructure spending, loss of needed government jobs (see IRS) due to underfunding our government are all things that have been the bedrock of conservative republican governance. While the oligarchs who own the party have more riches than anyone has ever had in human history.
Put people back to work rebuilding our country at a decent wage and you will see graduation rates soar. Continue on present course and you will see revolution in the streets, sooner or later.
If Obama is for it a true conservative must be against it. All the things that keep people from achieving their goals and dreams that you mention are results of 35 years of stripping away the various supports to middle class and poor Americans.
Union busting, manufacturing jobs sent overseas, abysmal lack of infrastructure spending, loss of needed government jobs (see IRS) due to underfunding our government are all things that have been the bedrock of conservative republican governance. While the oligarchs who own the party have more riches than anyone has ever had in human history.
Put people back to work rebuilding our country at a decent wage and you will see graduation rates soar. Continue on present course and you will see revolution in the streets, sooner or later.
9
In addition to providing money and support systems for disadvantaged students once they make it to college, we should focus on providing them at earlier age the basic education and services that would allow them to attain the academic and life skills to succeed when and if they make it to college. A public educational system that is poorly funded and based on governance through data is mostly producing a mirage education that is constantly being exposed by the social and academic requirements of college. When are we going to understand and address the fact that in order furnish a meaningful education for our disadvantaged students, more than focusing on data and blaming teachers for the effects of poverty, we should be emphasizing the provision of smaller class sizes, and be exploring alternative teaching approaches and assessments that would more adequately meet the academic and emotional needs of these students? When we have produced an underclass majority comprised mostly of people of color in this great democracy of ours? I would like to think that we can do better for our country’s future.
2
Brooks says: " Congress should take the proposal, scrap it and rededicate the money toward programs that will actually boost completion, that will surround colleges, students and their families with supporting structures.
Oh, have no fear, David. your GOP congress will have no compunction when it comes to the "scrapping" of Obama's proposal. Made all the easier by some six years of practice.
As for the laughable "rededication" of the funds to student support services, that will occur immediately after McConnell and the boys "repeal and replace" Obamacare with those "common sense, free market health care alternatives" . Funny how we don't here anymore about that GOP "replacement" for the ACA, isn't it?
Oh, have no fear, David. your GOP congress will have no compunction when it comes to the "scrapping" of Obama's proposal. Made all the easier by some six years of practice.
As for the laughable "rededication" of the funds to student support services, that will occur immediately after McConnell and the boys "repeal and replace" Obamacare with those "common sense, free market health care alternatives" . Funny how we don't here anymore about that GOP "replacement" for the ACA, isn't it?
5
Actually, this is a thoughtful piece, notwithstanding the gratuitous slap at "liberal orthodoxy". People forget that when you are doing just about everything you can do to keep your family together, working the extra shift, helping out with younger family members, there just isn't enough elasticity to deal with educational requirements and deadlines when even the smallest thing goes wrong or is added on. Better college preparedness, more resources into guidance, and a guidance department that is trained to identify kids, early on, for whom a community college would be an important step. But it would also help if people like Mr. Brooks, and those who share his conservative views but lack his communitarian commitment, would have a better understanding and sympathy for just how hard many people who don't have a lot really work. Just a modicum of support here--a little child care, an after school program, a social agenda which isn't so persistently censorious without the tools to make other choices, would have a tremendous impact on those who have the genuine desire, but just can't handle the logistics. And, when those people succeed, and are able to move into better paying jobs with greater security, and to show their own children the value of both education and hard work, then you have a true echo effect that should be prized by everyone.
3
This is from Michael, Becky's husband, who is a community college science professor. I have come to the conclusion that our model of education is not right for about half of those who come to college. These talented young people are looking to find a trade to follow and to build a productive life. It would serve these students to build great two year trade schools for them to study a high paying trade and then to get out and start earning and being promoted doing what is needed in our country (such as electricians, mechanics, office staff, industrial technicians, and so on) instead of not graduating or graduating with a poor sense of themselves as failed students when that is not true, they are talented, just in not the traditional liberal arts fashion. In this way we decrease the need of part time educators who travel from school to school trying to educate a largely disinterested group of students. Those left in college will be those who are motivated in that traditional liberal arts education and retention and success rates will be where they should be.
3
"Congress should take the proposal, scrap it and rededicate the money toward programs that will actually boost completion, that will surround colleges, students and their families with supporting structures."
You almost got that right. You just need a compassionately conservative editor to assist you. Let me give it a try:
Congress should take the proposal, pass it (since it will assist students who need the help) and then dedicate a like sum of money toward programs that will actually boost completion, that will surround colleges, students and their families with supporting structures.
There we go, much better.
Mr. Brooks, you incorrectly think that by pointing out other pressing needs you have somehow made a case that needy and poor students do not require tuition assistance.
And let's take your cynical interpretation at face value and assume that the only students who will benefit from the Obama subsidies will be middle, or even upper class students. So what? We should subsidize post-high school education for everyone, and for their whole lives.
I have a BA in English which I received because of those 'liberal' 70's politicians who made it possible for a hillbilly preacher's kid to go to a good university.
When I moved to Seattle, 15 years ago, I took computer classes at the local community college and became a computer geek. No degree, but a life-changing education.
Maybe your obsession with degrees says more about you than it does about the CC system.
You almost got that right. You just need a compassionately conservative editor to assist you. Let me give it a try:
Congress should take the proposal, pass it (since it will assist students who need the help) and then dedicate a like sum of money toward programs that will actually boost completion, that will surround colleges, students and their families with supporting structures.
There we go, much better.
Mr. Brooks, you incorrectly think that by pointing out other pressing needs you have somehow made a case that needy and poor students do not require tuition assistance.
And let's take your cynical interpretation at face value and assume that the only students who will benefit from the Obama subsidies will be middle, or even upper class students. So what? We should subsidize post-high school education for everyone, and for their whole lives.
I have a BA in English which I received because of those 'liberal' 70's politicians who made it possible for a hillbilly preacher's kid to go to a good university.
When I moved to Seattle, 15 years ago, I took computer classes at the local community college and became a computer geek. No degree, but a life-changing education.
Maybe your obsession with degrees says more about you than it does about the CC system.
3
The problems Brooks lists can be repaired when all students are given an adequate High School education. If we provide for that by ending the Balkanized system we now have, I am all for it. We have students in every form of religious school, home school and private schools. If we fund public education, and require all students to meet minimal standards, we will reduce the dropout rate that he speaks of. Clearly Brooks doesn't understand that many of us who attended Jr. college didn't graduate there, but from University.
1
If businesses small to large wouldn't hire the illegal immigrants, they would not come.
The right says they don't want illegal immigrants, but their actions show otherwise.
The right says they don't want illegal immigrants, but their actions show otherwise.
Before Human Capital 1.0 or 2.0 kicks in the first and most critical priority should be addressing the defective state of "Parenting" in America.
"Children are human beings to whom respect is due,superior to us by reason of their innocence and of the greater possibilities of their future."
Maria Montessori
"Children are human beings to whom respect is due,superior to us by reason of their innocence and of the greater possibilities of their future."
Maria Montessori
1
"In short, you wouldn’t write government checks for tuition. You’d strengthen structures around the schools." No we'd write government checks for the "structures". As usual Brooks provides little if any factual evidence to support his claims. In an article yesterday by Charles Blow he sited the fact that the poor college student graduates on average with a debt of $35,000 plus versus the middle class kid at $24,000.
What Brooks got right: counseling, day care, better remedial education. Of course, any hint of attempting to fund such improvements would be predictably met with cries of "throwing money at the problem" and "our broken schools" and "cut the waste first". Oddly, counselors are a budget burden for districts. Many students do not understand how the system works, how testing impacts their future, and what options are open to them. Funding them is a great idea but there is the Republican antipathy to any and all taxes. Day care segues into some sort of a personal responsibility issue. Remediation happens best at the HS level for young students; in the community college for non-traditional students. Funding issues again.
What Brooks got wrong:
"motivation, grit and attachment ..". Brooks ALWAYS has to include something about how if "those people" just had some motivation, they'd be at the top just like he is. If they had just some grit and guts, they could do it. After all HE did didn't he?
This whole piece is a bait and switch. If Obama did/does advocate any of the things Brooks allegedly supports, it is a better than even money bet that he will come out against it. After all, if those people had motivation, grit and attachment, there wouldn't be a problem.
What Brooks got wrong:
"motivation, grit and attachment ..". Brooks ALWAYS has to include something about how if "those people" just had some motivation, they'd be at the top just like he is. If they had just some grit and guts, they could do it. After all HE did didn't he?
This whole piece is a bait and switch. If Obama did/does advocate any of the things Brooks allegedly supports, it is a better than even money bet that he will come out against it. After all, if those people had motivation, grit and attachment, there wouldn't be a problem.
3
Here is another column where Mr. Brooks writes nonsense. People need money to go to college, let them decide what is the best way to allocate the funds.
Mr. Brooks columns are being written in an attempt to not offend anyone except our intelligence. Gawker published a one sentence summary of some of his social babble columns in 2014.
" 9/25/14: Having a routine is important.
9/18/14: Friendship is important.
9/8/14: It's important to get a moral education.
9/4/14: "We're repulsed by a beheading because the body has a spiritual essence."
8/28/14: Courage, firmness, humility, autonomy, and generosity are important.
8/7/14: It's important to be introspective but not self-absorbed.
7/31/14: Good character is important.
7/10/14: Life is like soccer, not like baseball.
7/7/14: It's important to be in a creative environment.
7/3/14: Social science findings are important.
6/30/14: Trust is important.
6/26/14: "Americans have lost faith in their own gospel.""
6/23/14: Nobody's perfect.
6/16/14: Learning is hard.
6/3/14: Focus is important.
5/16/14: Wisdom is important.
5/12/14: Confidence is important.
5/5/14: Kids have changed.
5/1/14: Nothing is more important than love."
Yes, unbelievably he gets paid very well for this pseudo intelectual babble.gibberish.
Mr. Brooks columns are being written in an attempt to not offend anyone except our intelligence. Gawker published a one sentence summary of some of his social babble columns in 2014.
" 9/25/14: Having a routine is important.
9/18/14: Friendship is important.
9/8/14: It's important to get a moral education.
9/4/14: "We're repulsed by a beheading because the body has a spiritual essence."
8/28/14: Courage, firmness, humility, autonomy, and generosity are important.
8/7/14: It's important to be introspective but not self-absorbed.
7/31/14: Good character is important.
7/10/14: Life is like soccer, not like baseball.
7/7/14: It's important to be in a creative environment.
7/3/14: Social science findings are important.
6/30/14: Trust is important.
6/26/14: "Americans have lost faith in their own gospel.""
6/23/14: Nobody's perfect.
6/16/14: Learning is hard.
6/3/14: Focus is important.
5/16/14: Wisdom is important.
5/12/14: Confidence is important.
5/5/14: Kids have changed.
5/1/14: Nothing is more important than love."
Yes, unbelievably he gets paid very well for this pseudo intelectual babble.gibberish.
3
Dear Mr. Brooks, your stats are misleading (attributable to your University of Chicago-school of math). Yes, the U.S. Department of Education indicates the community college graduation rate is about 18 percent. BUT if you consider the 1 in 4 community college students that transfer to a four-year school and graduates, the graduation rate is actually 40 percent...not unfavorably comparable to four-year institutions.
4
Oh, and there's another benefit that Mr. Brooks fails to realize. Community colleges are also shown to incentivize HIGH SCHOOL students toward matriculation. That's right, where there's a connect between high school and training for job force readiness, i.e., community colleges, it's been shown that high school graduation rates also rise. Check it out: http://www.communitycollegereview.com/articles/203
2
Of course, as a conservative, David simply ignores the cost of community college for students who are not paid a living wage by employers. That so-called student aid is actually being reduced as Pell grant funding is being undermined by clueless conservatives who prefer unregulated finance industry loans to already poor students. And how is aid to some one-third of students anything close to what Obama has proposed. Finally, if half the students applying to community college need remedial help, the real problem is what happens before they graduate from high school...if they even do that.
Eclectic Pragmatist — http://eclectic-pragmatist.tumblr.com/
Eclectic Pragmatist — http://eclectic-pragmatist.tumblr.com/
2
Education is far too important to be left to the whims of politicians. Parents are the primary educators of their children. Teachers and schools trail in importance to the early years of childhood development. Current literature shows that reading to and with children should continue even into secondary education. Setting the example of life long learning is a beginning. Few student maximize the experiences offered in any school. Perhaps subsidies should be limited to individuals who have demonstrated the desire to learn. Most educational levels can be achieved by hard work no matter the innate abilities of the student. Little can be learned by students who fail to recognize the value of an education.
6
Yes, more support for the children of the wealthy.
It is amazing how Mr. Brooks ignores the counter argument whenever possible. Making community college free will, I repeat, will improve the graduation rate.
Then he jumps into politico-speak 2.0. Calling the concept liberal orthodoxy from the 70's. Does he ever call the increase in military spending conservative orthodoxy? No.
Limited expenditure with huge potential payout.
But, then again, why expend money on the creative when we can spend more on the destructive?
Then he jumps into politico-speak 2.0. Calling the concept liberal orthodoxy from the 70's. Does he ever call the increase in military spending conservative orthodoxy? No.
Limited expenditure with huge potential payout.
But, then again, why expend money on the creative when we can spend more on the destructive?
18
I read between the lines on this column: Let's not help the poor or give them a chance. Brooks dressed this up like he really cares but he wrapped it in Republican speak. Not buying it. Free Community College is worth for all!
15
Brooks is right to suggest that government address those societal basics which would enable people to earn a living, attend college, live in a safe environment, etc. Proposing to pay 75% of community-college tuition for those who meet specific criteria, plus the regulatory and assessment costs, is "throwing money" at a problem instead of solving it.
Guess you don't know much about raising kids or making them responsible for their grades. Meaning you either are not a parent or are a lousy parent.
Those of us that raise our kids to be a plus for society know too well that not all are ready for or even desire more school, except for the parties. Not exaggerating, I work with kids all the time and those that didn't make the grade in HS are VERY unlikely to make the grade in college or to graduate. Those few that do, do so because they had to get it 'together' and work their butts off to learn what they should have learned in HS.
Of course the community colleges will be thrilled. Just like the docs and hospitals were thrilled with Medicare and Medicaid. They become a business too big to fail and are 'protected' by government monies.
This country is in a race to the bottom.
Those of us that raise our kids to be a plus for society know too well that not all are ready for or even desire more school, except for the parties. Not exaggerating, I work with kids all the time and those that didn't make the grade in HS are VERY unlikely to make the grade in college or to graduate. Those few that do, do so because they had to get it 'together' and work their butts off to learn what they should have learned in HS.
Of course the community colleges will be thrilled. Just like the docs and hospitals were thrilled with Medicare and Medicaid. They become a business too big to fail and are 'protected' by government monies.
This country is in a race to the bottom.
As a community college professor I can state that not everyone in those colleges is "thrilled" by the notion of free tuition for all. Many students need "some skin in the game" to make them take the opportunity seriously. Many systemic problems remain and are getting worse--students need remediation in larger numbers; full-time faculty numbers are shrinking with adjunct numbers increasing; resources needed aren't there. Without attention to these problems, throwing more students into the community colleges will simply be creating more problems. From my experience, the vast majority of community college professors are just as qualified (and frequently better teachers) than their 4-year college peers and are doing the best they can while being underpaid, under supported, and overworked, (Teaching 5 classes a semester with 23-40 of the neediest, most poorly prepared students in them is daunting; these are the students who need the smallest classes.) And then there is the general disregard and disrespect paid to community colleges when people point to low graduation rates. A better way of looking at the numbers is to consider how very many students we help succeed, despite the fact that those students were poorly prepared and lack support and despite the fact that faculty are working for low pay and with shrinking resources. For the most part we're performing heroically.
Brooks attempts to show that Obama's plan for free tuition is all screwed up because other college expenses are more important. Why, pray tell, are living expenses any more important that tuition costs? It's all money that is aimed at the same goal. How is free tuition supposed to be related to the drop out rate? The obvious and admitted goal of conservatives is to defeat any and everything Obama tries to accomplish. With that as their main goal, the conservatives are unfit to govern. The Democrats aren't much better since they refuse to stand up for their principles.
12
can't understand why Brooks does not see the requirements (to maintain a GPA and progress to a goal) and not an adequate incentive for the poor to do better.
Free tuition for community College Students is nothing Special; CUNY's 2-year system, for example, is overbooked with students, young and old. How about college preparedness at the high school level? I'm sure some of those professors would rather devote their time to helping non traditional students rather than play 13th grade teacher.
7
CUNY was a fantastic system until open enrollment. It offered free tuition, but only to students who had high school scores of 89 and up.
2
High schools graduate students who shouldn't graduate because our educational policy at the state and national level punishes schools and threatens teachers' jobs based on passing and graduation rates. If we started blaming the students and parents, not the teachers and schools, when the kids fail to do the work that should be required, the problem would disappear. Until we do that, it won't.
1
I wish Mr. Brooks would stop trying to define what he calls liberal orthodoxy. The goal of progressives has always been to support students get through school in every way possible and throwing money at problems is not the goal. But as conservatives define it that way the necessary money, yes money is necessary to create effective programs, they as others have pointed out throw out any possibility of doing anything.
8
If an individual is not prepared to invest in themselves why should their neighbors be forced to invest for them?
5
I am sorry to have to point this out, Yes I Am Right, but here is where better education would have helped you. Your grammar skills need improvement.
2
What a completely empty sentiment. The government hands out billions in incentives to corporations which don't need them. Yet somehow our youth are unworthy.
3
That rhetorical question has nothing to do with a young person without any funds, without a support system at home and without having received a decent secondary education in one of the many bad public school districts in our country. Only someone wilfully blind to the problem fails to see it.
1
"you can lead a child to knowledge, but you cannot make him think...."
5
Both Obama's plan and Brooks ideas offer some elements of truth. They also both share a major, fatal flaw - targeting aid only to students who graduate from CC in three years. Many, and likely most, CC students also work during the day, often full time. They are at least supporting themselves, if not also supporting others. One of the great benefits of CC is that students can attend part time without incurring the massive, mandatory semester-by-semester tuition fees charged at four year institutions. Community colleges are by design geared toward part time students, so why would part time students be ineligible for aid?
Why on earth would Obama not help working people go to community college? We're talking about people who are working hard to hold down jobs, and then working harder at night to improve themselves and their position in life. These are the people proving the American dream and people who, by every measure, our society has an interest in supporting. Why would they be left out of any tuition assistance plan?
I have to say this sounds like a classic Obama move - propose something grandiose that makes a good sound bite without putting any real thought into how it should work, or striving to make any tough changes.
Why on earth would Obama not help working people go to community college? We're talking about people who are working hard to hold down jobs, and then working harder at night to improve themselves and their position in life. These are the people proving the American dream and people who, by every measure, our society has an interest in supporting. Why would they be left out of any tuition assistance plan?
I have to say this sounds like a classic Obama move - propose something grandiose that makes a good sound bite without putting any real thought into how it should work, or striving to make any tough changes.
8
Conservatives often complain that government social spending ends up being more about good intentions, bigger government, and buying votes, than accomplishing real improvements in society. This column is an excellent demonstration of that tendency in action. Brooks is to be thanked for that.
4
President Obama did not make a serious proposal. He merely generated a sound bite that would play to his political base.
That is not leadership. That is merely a petulant President who, in many ways, is signaling his weakness by stooping to such pathetic maneuvers.
President Obama is better than this. There is no doubt that, if the President made serious recommendations like the ones mentioned here, he would generate a lot of support. The goal isn't winning an election in 2016, it is to help as many people as possible.
I don't know what Obama wants during the two years- play political games or lead? I am looking for leadership, and he is sadly coming up short.
That is not leadership. That is merely a petulant President who, in many ways, is signaling his weakness by stooping to such pathetic maneuvers.
President Obama is better than this. There is no doubt that, if the President made serious recommendations like the ones mentioned here, he would generate a lot of support. The goal isn't winning an election in 2016, it is to help as many people as possible.
I don't know what Obama wants during the two years- play political games or lead? I am looking for leadership, and he is sadly coming up short.
11
Simple fact: the U.S. offers the greatest financial obstacles of any western nation, by far, to acquiring higher education, including the usurious interest rates charged to students and parents via government loans. Citizens of other democracies would not put up with the higher-ed profiteering that goes on in the U.S. for a minute. And universities in other western nations seem to manage quite well with less than half the number of vice-presidents and deans of this and that, not to mention none of the budget-busting coaches and athletics staffs and money-losing facilities that students in America must borrow money to pay for.
16
Actually, I think you misunderstand. Many countries do offer a free education. But there are caveats that would never be stood for by many commenting here, or Obama.
First, you must be accepted to a certified university. Can't just start up virtual universities and start collecting gov't money.
Second, you MUST show aptitude by the time you are 12 or 13 in most of the countries you seem to hold as a poster child for the 'right thing to do.' Only those that get the grades even take college prep courses like chemistry, etc. Others get a basic education and then leave school around 16.
No such thing as affirmation action or exceptions made for your struggles with poor parenting or lousy living conditions. And while your education is 'free' room and board is not necessarily covered. Depends on the University and the country.
First, you must be accepted to a certified university. Can't just start up virtual universities and start collecting gov't money.
Second, you MUST show aptitude by the time you are 12 or 13 in most of the countries you seem to hold as a poster child for the 'right thing to do.' Only those that get the grades even take college prep courses like chemistry, etc. Others get a basic education and then leave school around 16.
No such thing as affirmation action or exceptions made for your struggles with poor parenting or lousy living conditions. And while your education is 'free' room and board is not necessarily covered. Depends on the University and the country.
You can't college meaningfully separate demands from a national economy that supports learning environments and values intelligence and learning. Unfortunately, these are frowned on as wimpish in America.
So David's point is, ... Since some students will drop out, we shouldn't give any of them the opportunity for an education. What an exquisitely conservative concept .
24
No, I think his point is since 70% might not finish, maybe there's a better way to go about. Paying for a 30% success rate is an equisitely liberal concept.
Isn't it though? It goes right along with their other planks such as 1. Since tighter gun laws won't stop all gun violence, they are useless. 2. Since tighter abortion laws won't stop all abortions, let's tighten them some more. 3. The poor did it to themselves, let them starve. 4. The blacks did it to themselves, ship them back at their expense. 5. The Latinos did it to themselves, encourage them to self-deport. The rich built their wealth all by themselves, so they should be able to wallow in it while their countrymen literally starve.
And they wonder why this is not a compelling narrative for the 47% they say are moochy leeches, like the elderly, and active military.
And they wonder why this is not a compelling narrative for the 47% they say are moochy leeches, like the elderly, and active military.
2
No, the idea is that if you have not demonstrated good grades (Obama's C+ does not pass muster), then you shouldn't get a free ride to a college where you've never displayed competency or desire. You should work until you can figure it out - that means ignoring HS and partying or whatever you spent your time doing is a learning moment. Then it is up to YOU to apply for scholarships, if needy, or convince your parents that you are now interested in something beyond teenage antics.
But I must correct you - it isn't 'some students will drop out' it is more than 75% will drop out. At Universities across the country there is a drop out rate of 25% Freshman/Sophmore year. And that hasn't changed much in 40+ years. In community college, most drop out.
But I must correct you - it isn't 'some students will drop out' it is more than 75% will drop out. At Universities across the country there is a drop out rate of 25% Freshman/Sophmore year. And that hasn't changed much in 40+ years. In community college, most drop out.
Excuse my cynicism but this is a completely irrelevant response to President Obama's completely irrelevant proposals. With congress firmly in the hands of the Republicans, Obama is free to propose any and all vaguely progressive things to try and regain the Democrats' street cred with its base while having nothing in danger of passing and becoming a problem for their funders.
We are not fooled.
We are not fooled.
6
"not in danger of passing" - Could you possibly be a little more regressive?
1
This is another of those ironic pieces that misses the point and in so doing shows that conservatives don't even realize how inconsistent their ideas are.
Community colleges are not the hotbeds of liberalism that college-educated Republicans disdain and want to cripple. Instead they are focused on more work- and career-minded young people who either want to get into the workforce sooner with skills that will help get them jobs or students who are not sure they want to or can afford to go on to more expensive four-year colleges. These are not pampered children of the wealthy. They are the children of middle- and working-class people who know they need to earn a living and are trying to improve their chances.
From personal knowledge I know that the cost is a big driver for community college students and their families. I don't know where Brooks is getting his impression that tuition is not important: these kids often live at home and borrow textbooks, so tuition is the real deal-breaker.
Actually all higher education should be subsidized, if not fee, but it is vitally important to support those going to community colleges and, I might add, to dental and medical schools as well. We need these people if we want our economy and nation to have a future.
Community colleges are not the hotbeds of liberalism that college-educated Republicans disdain and want to cripple. Instead they are focused on more work- and career-minded young people who either want to get into the workforce sooner with skills that will help get them jobs or students who are not sure they want to or can afford to go on to more expensive four-year colleges. These are not pampered children of the wealthy. They are the children of middle- and working-class people who know they need to earn a living and are trying to improve their chances.
From personal knowledge I know that the cost is a big driver for community college students and their families. I don't know where Brooks is getting his impression that tuition is not important: these kids often live at home and borrow textbooks, so tuition is the real deal-breaker.
Actually all higher education should be subsidized, if not fee, but it is vitally important to support those going to community colleges and, I might add, to dental and medical schools as well. We need these people if we want our economy and nation to have a future.
25
Exactly right. Brooks' column is a muddled mess. Two-year colleges give opportunities to students who do not have the money to attend four-year schools or who, as you say, with to focus on learning valuable skills for particular jobs. Advanced countries heavily subsidize higher education, because they understand the value of an educated populace, and they have a range of post high school colleges, where students can focus on the kind of education that best suits their needs and talents. I have spent decades in education. Brooks does not seem to understand that education is not simply a matter of liberal orthodoxy (whatever this code word means to Brooks and those who think as he does), it is a matter of national well being (the general welfare of the Constitution) and national security. It is a mattertof securing a better future. After three decades of Republican economics, our future does not look terribly promising, because literally nothing is trickling down...
3
"All college commencements are happy, but community-college commencements are the happiest of all. Many of the graduates are the first in their extended family to have earned degrees. When their name is read, big cheering sections erupt with horns and roars from the stands".
David Brooks
Ah, the simple pleasures of the poor! And how different from DB's graduating class at University of Chicago long ago! What a sober crowd they were, heads inclined thoughtfully as the commencement speaker entrusted them with the future of the country! No horns and cheering for them! They knew what an awesome duty awaited them. They were the elite and they accepted their duties with humility and perhaps a little trepidation. They knew that not everyone could shoulder their burden! Not everyone is cut out to be the spokesman of the .01%...
David Brooks
Ah, the simple pleasures of the poor! And how different from DB's graduating class at University of Chicago long ago! What a sober crowd they were, heads inclined thoughtfully as the commencement speaker entrusted them with the future of the country! No horns and cheering for them! They knew what an awesome duty awaited them. They were the elite and they accepted their duties with humility and perhaps a little trepidation. They knew that not everyone could shoulder their burden! Not everyone is cut out to be the spokesman of the .01%...
14
I attended a community college, and probably could have been counted in the dropout stats cited.
However, I transferred from CC to state college after attending year-round, one or two classes at a time, for three years (and with a 3.9 gpa.) I just couldn't go at that slow pace forever, it would have taken me 4 years to get an AA. Instead, I dropped out of the fulltime adult work world to be a full-time student.
I have no doubt that there are a huge number of people who've done similar (transferred before earning an AA) and who are helping Brooks to make the claim that grad rates aren't high enough to give students free tuition.
However, had my tuition been free, I might have had that AA before transferring because I could have worked less while attending school, as I am sure others could have as well.
Its a matter of priorities
However, I transferred from CC to state college after attending year-round, one or two classes at a time, for three years (and with a 3.9 gpa.) I just couldn't go at that slow pace forever, it would have taken me 4 years to get an AA. Instead, I dropped out of the fulltime adult work world to be a full-time student.
I have no doubt that there are a huge number of people who've done similar (transferred before earning an AA) and who are helping Brooks to make the claim that grad rates aren't high enough to give students free tuition.
However, had my tuition been free, I might have had that AA before transferring because I could have worked less while attending school, as I am sure others could have as well.
Its a matter of priorities
8
After reading the first sentence in this column that all “college commencements are happy, but community-college commencements are the happiest of all,” I really thought that David Brooks was about to come out swinging in support of President Obama’s modest proposal of making community college education free for all.
Continuing on, however, I soon realized that Mr. Brooks was only teasing his readers by asserting that spending “$60 billion over 10 years to make community college free,” will not reduce the current high dropout rates now hovering “somewhere between 66 percent and 80 percent.”
This assertion is incomplete and is therefore inaccurate. It fails to acknowledge that, according to knowledgeable educators in the field, a large and significant segment of these dropouts do not continue due to the high cost of education, which they cannot afford.
Free higher education may be a crucial step toward addressing the social injustices and economic inequality that plague and threaten the economic fabric of American society. It might begin to bridge the widening gap between the very rich and the very poor.
President Obama should be applauded for this modest but important initiative.
Continuing on, however, I soon realized that Mr. Brooks was only teasing his readers by asserting that spending “$60 billion over 10 years to make community college free,” will not reduce the current high dropout rates now hovering “somewhere between 66 percent and 80 percent.”
This assertion is incomplete and is therefore inaccurate. It fails to acknowledge that, according to knowledgeable educators in the field, a large and significant segment of these dropouts do not continue due to the high cost of education, which they cannot afford.
Free higher education may be a crucial step toward addressing the social injustices and economic inequality that plague and threaten the economic fabric of American society. It might begin to bridge the widening gap between the very rich and the very poor.
President Obama should be applauded for this modest but important initiative.
10
Modest proposal?! A free higher education for those that were C students, where most didn't even like school? You pay for it, my tax dollars are tapped out paying for free lunches to those driving beamers - the result of the Dems legislating that you cannot even ask a parent if they are truly in need.
Mary: you need to re-read your Swift. You're on the wrong side of his arguments. It was a satire.
A reasonable position taken. However which Republican in the House or Senate is going to propose this idea?
2
Right David. Do you really think this anti-education Congress whose mantra seems to be: "If you can't afford to go to private school, you probably shouldn't go to school", will actually do anything to educate our children? As one who used Community College to springboard into a professorship at a major public university I say do all of these things. I went for free in the 1970s. The Republicans have made it clear they want a illiterate electorate, one that is generally conservative.
12
This is the second of two Brooks' pieces that make me wonder if he has had, like Saul/Paul, a road to Damascus experience. Is this the Brooks we've all (well, most of us) reviled from time to time as a GOP, including the wacko wing, shill? Just when you think you've heard it all....
But that said, as some have noted, Brooks is on the right track with his suggestions but as others have also noted, the tuition at any school is just the start of the resources needed. And to provide meaningful help with those would require a total re-think and re-allocation of resources by all policy makers of the current situation. How likely is that?
But that said, as some have noted, Brooks is on the right track with his suggestions but as others have also noted, the tuition at any school is just the start of the resources needed. And to provide meaningful help with those would require a total re-think and re-allocation of resources by all policy makers of the current situation. How likely is that?
3
I suspect Obama knows that a snowball has a better chance in hell than any of his proposals do at present--unless he registers as a Republican and stops being intelligent and Black. I also suspect that he has turned the tables. He now has Republicans chasing all his proposals and trying to scratch up arguments against them. Otherwise, they might have time to propose more of their own disastrous policies. Hail to the Chief!
12
Yeh. Just great. Now we'll still get nothing done. People like you say it's the Reps fault. But Obama had 2 years of Dem controlled Congress, 2 years of Senate control. What did they do - well, Reid didn't let any proposals go to the floor without his okay and without all the amendments allowed. Assuring that he could blame Reps for getting nothing done when he had no intention to do anything.
Your blind bias to all things 'blue' is astounding.
Your blind bias to all things 'blue' is astounding.
In that time, Obama had to deal with Republican obstruction in the Senate. In Obama's six years, the GOP has run more filibusters than all the previous Senates combined. In the two years you challenge, Obama signed the Lilly Ledbetter Act and put the economy on the road to recovery in spite of Republican opposition. Remember what typically Republican thing Chris Christy did in his first weeks as governor? He cancelled the tunnel dig under the Hudson, thereby nixing many jobs and condemning NJ commuters to a continued nightmare commute.
Sorry, Mary. The blindness is on your side. Republicans sent nothing to Reid unless it had a poison pill in it, a nasty quid pro a nastier quo.
Sorry, Mary. The blindness is on your side. Republicans sent nothing to Reid unless it had a poison pill in it, a nasty quid pro a nastier quo.
2
"The smart thing to do would be to scrap the Obama tuition plan." Yep, that would be the smart thing to do. Let's do what Mr. Brooks advocates. Let the Republican congress tackle child care for students in college. Subsidize living expenses for students already enrolled. Subsidize guidance councilors. I have confidence Republicans will tackle all this stuff. But for now, scrap Obama's plan. David Brooks...see how silly my point is?
13
"You’d strengthen structures around the schools. You’d focus on the lived environment of actual students and create relationships and cushions to help them thrive."
For a brief flash, Brooks seems to acknowledge that the world outside the classroom is an important factor in student success. Surely he will go on to support changes in policy and spending that could provide more jobs with living wages in struggling communities and lift them out of poverty.
"The new research emphasizes noncognitive skills — motivation, grit and attachment — and how to use policy levers to boost these things."
Nope. Like most conservatives, the only problem he sees is that "those people" just don't have the right attitude and work-ethic to be successful.
For a brief flash, Brooks seems to acknowledge that the world outside the classroom is an important factor in student success. Surely he will go on to support changes in policy and spending that could provide more jobs with living wages in struggling communities and lift them out of poverty.
"The new research emphasizes noncognitive skills — motivation, grit and attachment — and how to use policy levers to boost these things."
Nope. Like most conservatives, the only problem he sees is that "those people" just don't have the right attitude and work-ethic to be successful.
10
I attended a CC for two years in the mid 60's - we paid for books and lab fees - no tuition. I then attended a state college for a year - books and lab fees only. The only tuition I paid was to attend a private university for my degree in my last two years. At one point most of Univ. of CA was free, all state and junior colleges were free. CA had the best system in the country and then let it go - thanks Mr. Reagan who seems to be the "gift" that just keeps on giving.
19
Agreed. I was a graduate student at a UC school, and it was heartbreaking to see and experience the decline of what was one the world's great public systems.
For once, Mr. Brooks (no relation) has gotten it absolutely right. I teach in a community college and can tell you that the number one problem is not access, but retention, which soars because students arrive from high school horribly unprepared for college level work, and without any sense of what "work" really means. Half my job is just instilling an "attitude correction" about how much time and genuine effort is required to really learn how to use your brain effectively. My one addition to this analysis is that the real problem begins long before college--public school is largely glorified baby-sitting in this country. We need to finally move away from the 19th-century agrarian model we've had for too long and adopt the policies and structures of European and Japanese schools, where they do actual school.
6
For a change, I agree that Mr. Brooks has identified significant impediments to success for many students. However, the biggest impediment to the implementation of his proposals would be Republican leaders both at the state and national levels. I encourage Mr. Brooks to circulate his ideas among Republican leaders to propose them as amendments to the President's proposals and to allocate a significant percentage of the financing to on-site day care (which could also serve as an educational resource for students in child development, early education, nutrition, etc,), tutoring, guidance, work-study programs, internships, and other supportive efforts.
9
Mr. Brooks
Just come out and say it: 'Republican politicians hate smart voters'.
Too many educated people would force Republican politicians to seek employment in the private sector.
Just come out and say it: 'Republican politicians hate smart voters'.
Too many educated people would force Republican politicians to seek employment in the private sector.
14
So, Mr. Brooks' approach would be to do nothing until some fantasy, wonderful program can be implemented that will solve all the problems students encounter? I am reminded of the ACA. Republicans want to repeal it and replace it with something far better, but need a decade or so to figure out a perfect plan.
Pragmatist that he is, President Obama is keenly aware the the best is often the enemy of the good. Does any reader believe for a minute that Republicans in Congress will do anything ever about the ballooning costs of higher education? Does David Brooks?
Pragmatist that he is, President Obama is keenly aware the the best is often the enemy of the good. Does any reader believe for a minute that Republicans in Congress will do anything ever about the ballooning costs of higher education? Does David Brooks?
7
Is Brooks serious?? His ilk has spent the last several decades destroying all the supporting 'structures around the schools' that he touts here. It's stunning how clueless conservatives are about their trail of failed and devastating social and economic policies.
13
I wish I could recommend this one about 1000 times.
Can anything be more hypocritical than advising the President to expand his ideas to cover precisely what has been methodically stripped from the majority by those of his ilk (and note, no proposals about how to fund this), while simultaneously proposing to deny free tuition as unnecessary?
Can anything be more hypocritical than advising the President to expand his ideas to cover precisely what has been methodically stripped from the majority by those of his ilk (and note, no proposals about how to fund this), while simultaneously proposing to deny free tuition as unnecessary?
1
Typically absurd piece of blather by Mr. Brooks. Human Capital 3,0 would be Sweden, Denmark or Germany, where all of the above and more are provided for, and which has a zero chance of funding thanks to a Republican Congress more intent on preserving the capital of dead billionaires from taxation than leading the nation into a sustainable and prosperous future.
11
P..S. I also I flunked the hand-written portion of the college exam, because I believe, the TA grading my paper, didn't like it when I told Nadine Strossen of the ACLU, I didn't care if they used profiling in an effort to curb gun violence. And, what the TA didn't realize, I was only looking out for him or her. I never paid to take that test, again! (It's kind of like when, because of my good grades, they asked me to join Phi Theta Kappa ---- for $200. (I'm sorry I love you all, even Nadine, and even the kid who has picked up a gun over love (don't do that, I love you, and I was once poor, too). --- but can we please can the games, it is getting to be quite funny! (Oh, my vocabulary is horrible, too, but I can read the writing on the wall!).
1
If student's were engaged in classes that offered them real hope in improving their lives, the drop-out rate would not be so high.
The President should focus on vocational tuition, where skills in working with one's hand and mind will result in a meaningful and rewarding job.
The President should focus on vocational tuition, where skills in working with one's hand and mind will result in a meaningful and rewarding job.
1
The average age of community college students is 29 and two-thirds go part time. While encouraging attainment of an Associates Degree, incentives should be available for those who are only seeking an industry-recognized credential thus enhancing their employability.
2
You have some good suggestions. Why don't we do them? Because when they are suggested the right wing jumps up and cries socialism and the wealthy right wing cry buckets over lost micro percentages of wealth.
Meanwhile, enormous talent wastes away in menial jobs while other countries move ahead of America. Unlike us, the ruling elite elsewhere have the ability to see beyond their next quarterly statement.
Meanwhile, enormous talent wastes away in menial jobs while other countries move ahead of America. Unlike us, the ruling elite elsewhere have the ability to see beyond their next quarterly statement.
10
How about this novel idea - put all our effort into making sure that high school graduates are proficient in english, math, and the sciences. Offer classes that support skilled trades for those high school students who wish to go into the trades.
3
When you can get the votes through Congress to spend more money on public schools, let me know. I won't be holding my breath.
1
The premise of this argument is based on the claim the nation would behave the same way the small sample in Tennessee behaved when given free tuition. That remains to be seen. Communities are unique. Many would grab onto this opportunity, and hold on until graduation.
Also, why not do both? Why is it this or that , free tuition or surrounding economic factors? Why not start with free tuition as it's a manageable target, easily accessible to legislation and Congress, then go after the surrounding
economic factors that Brooks argues for. Those moving targets would need alignment, would need to be attacked on many different fronts, and would take multiple years for all of them to pass and gain traction. The free tuition starts right away--if passed.
The problem of inequity and lack of access is too big. Let's not dink around with excuses that will get this stuck. It's such a good idea--the best, I think, the Obama administration has offered us to date.
Also, why not do both? Why is it this or that , free tuition or surrounding economic factors? Why not start with free tuition as it's a manageable target, easily accessible to legislation and Congress, then go after the surrounding
economic factors that Brooks argues for. Those moving targets would need alignment, would need to be attacked on many different fronts, and would take multiple years for all of them to pass and gain traction. The free tuition starts right away--if passed.
The problem of inequity and lack of access is too big. Let's not dink around with excuses that will get this stuck. It's such a good idea--the best, I think, the Obama administration has offered us to date.
8
David Brooks makes some good points on how to improve junior college enrollment and matriculation. Whether tuition, or living expenses the main obstacle students face is poverty. They simply don't have enough money to go to school without working full time and frequently caring for children as well. In expensive cities like New York with sky high rents going to school and meeting those costs is nearly impossible.
So rather than an either or, why not create a more comprehensive federal support plan as Brooks suggests? If a student qualifies for "aid" let the school apply it on a case by case basis in a package that makes sense.
Schools already have experience in figuring out financial aid formulas, they just don't have enough money to go around. Day care is also critical since many adult students are also single parents. Its costs could be partially off set by staffing with certified teachers along with students studying early childhood education.
But what's also important and often overlooked is decent pay for junior college professors, the majority of whom are adjuncts working at rates that qualify them for food stamps or other aid. These dedicated teachers don't expect to get rich, but neither do they expect to have to rely on the same welfare programs as their students do in order to survive.
Somehow we have to get beyond petty politics and see the investment value of an educated citizenry, and the need to invest in faculty as well as students.
So rather than an either or, why not create a more comprehensive federal support plan as Brooks suggests? If a student qualifies for "aid" let the school apply it on a case by case basis in a package that makes sense.
Schools already have experience in figuring out financial aid formulas, they just don't have enough money to go around. Day care is also critical since many adult students are also single parents. Its costs could be partially off set by staffing with certified teachers along with students studying early childhood education.
But what's also important and often overlooked is decent pay for junior college professors, the majority of whom are adjuncts working at rates that qualify them for food stamps or other aid. These dedicated teachers don't expect to get rich, but neither do they expect to have to rely on the same welfare programs as their students do in order to survive.
Somehow we have to get beyond petty politics and see the investment value of an educated citizenry, and the need to invest in faculty as well as students.
1
Helping boys and girls to get a college degree should begin in primary school. Children who can't read complex texts can't go much further than the first two years of high school. The big, big lost is there. Yet most Republicans think that early teaching is already too expensive. And they have their own schools.
3
They certainly don't want "those people"'s children competing with their kids for college spots!
1
This country expends money for education that is mostly wasted. What else can we say about an 80% drop out rate in community colleges?
If this country is determined to have free education from cradle to grave ( is there nothing finite about federal programs?) then a system of testing for the best applicants should be instituted as Asian and Europeans do. Those who do not test well enough would not receive financial assistance but instead steered into vocational programs. They can attend a college if they wish but the'd have to pay for it themselves. This country is in great need of technicians who can build and maintain the ideas of Engineers. In the next 10 years alone the aircraft industry says it will need 500,000 workers for that task. Their is a severe shortage of welders and machinists. In a cooperative program in Chicago the city and a manufacturer are training welders who when they complete the course they start at $55,000 a year with a job that they've had as part of the cooperative. My Father attended East New York Vocational High School and made a very good living wage especially as he matured in his craft and started designing equipment. There's no sense in wasting money on those without the aptitude for college.
If this country is determined to have free education from cradle to grave ( is there nothing finite about federal programs?) then a system of testing for the best applicants should be instituted as Asian and Europeans do. Those who do not test well enough would not receive financial assistance but instead steered into vocational programs. They can attend a college if they wish but the'd have to pay for it themselves. This country is in great need of technicians who can build and maintain the ideas of Engineers. In the next 10 years alone the aircraft industry says it will need 500,000 workers for that task. Their is a severe shortage of welders and machinists. In a cooperative program in Chicago the city and a manufacturer are training welders who when they complete the course they start at $55,000 a year with a job that they've had as part of the cooperative. My Father attended East New York Vocational High School and made a very good living wage especially as he matured in his craft and started designing equipment. There's no sense in wasting money on those without the aptitude for college.
1
When something is given away free, lines form.
In the case of education, that's a good beginning. Once in line, the new recruits need to be channeled into education boot-camp: courses such as Speed Reading, Effective Listening and Note Taking Short-Hand and a dash of tricks-of-the trade in elementary math (shortcuts to addition, subtraction, multiplication and exponents).
You're in the Army now, recruit; basic training is over -- take some college courses.
In the case of education, that's a good beginning. Once in line, the new recruits need to be channeled into education boot-camp: courses such as Speed Reading, Effective Listening and Note Taking Short-Hand and a dash of tricks-of-the trade in elementary math (shortcuts to addition, subtraction, multiplication and exponents).
You're in the Army now, recruit; basic training is over -- take some college courses.
1
I have taught at two Community Colleges--one in Brooklyn and one in the Bronx-- and I find the students there heroic. They are overcoming great odds--many are immigrants and have trouble with the language and our customs-- and many struggle to even buy textbooks that are way too expensive. I try to use books that other Profs use so that the students can buy them from one another, even if it is not the latest edition. Tuition will help. Child care would help. Social workers and counselors (many of my male students were returning vets) would help. The first step is acknowledging that education benefits our society and that Obama's plan will benefit society. More details can be ironed out, added, subtracted and fought over later. This is a great start by a President who gets it.
15
Says Mr. Brooks, "You’d figure out the remedial education mess. Half of all community-college students arrive unprepared for college work."
Bingo. The K-12 system in many states are not producing graduates worthy enough to attend college at any level. This downhill slide has been going on for decades. We've had a separate federal-level Department of Education throwing hundreds of billions of dollars at the problem since 1979, - what do we have to show for it? Now the President wants to throw more taxpayer dollars into another rat hole.
"The smart thing to do would be to scrap the Obama tuition plan. Students who go to community college free now have tragically high dropout rates."
But David, this is a political statement. It shows that the President "cares". And he's speaking to Republican-controlled Congress, where the odds might be long to pass such a proposal. Which, of course, will make the Republicans look mean and uncaring. So this is just another scene in the never-ending drama that is Washington politics.
"Congress should take the proposal, scrap it and rededicate the money toward programs that will actually boost completion, that will surround colleges, students and their families with supporting structures. We don’t need another program that will lure students into colleges only to have them struggle and drop out."
Washington should not be involved in our kids' education in the first place.
Bingo. The K-12 system in many states are not producing graduates worthy enough to attend college at any level. This downhill slide has been going on for decades. We've had a separate federal-level Department of Education throwing hundreds of billions of dollars at the problem since 1979, - what do we have to show for it? Now the President wants to throw more taxpayer dollars into another rat hole.
"The smart thing to do would be to scrap the Obama tuition plan. Students who go to community college free now have tragically high dropout rates."
But David, this is a political statement. It shows that the President "cares". And he's speaking to Republican-controlled Congress, where the odds might be long to pass such a proposal. Which, of course, will make the Republicans look mean and uncaring. So this is just another scene in the never-ending drama that is Washington politics.
"Congress should take the proposal, scrap it and rededicate the money toward programs that will actually boost completion, that will surround colleges, students and their families with supporting structures. We don’t need another program that will lure students into colleges only to have them struggle and drop out."
Washington should not be involved in our kids' education in the first place.
2
You'd also find ways to support Phi Theta Kappa, the honor society of community colleges. The completion rate, on average, for Phi Theta Kappa members is a whopping 91% nationwide. These are above average students academically (3.5 GPA or above), but demographically exactly the same as the rest of community college students. It's the focus on recognition, validation, service, mentoring, and honors study that makes the difference. Community college students want to be validated for their efforts and find a place where they belong and can thrive. Phi Theta Kappa provides that, and it's working.
1
Oh David, such an expert on Community College, have you really ever gone to one? Sometimes I think you description of William Buckley is really more suited to you: "In the afternoons he is in the habit of going into crowded rooms and making everybody else feel inferior. The evenings are reserved for extended bouts of name-dropping." You will never be William Buckley, so get off your high horse and realize that poor kids deserve the chance, and they are not drawn to a higher education because it becomes free, they are drawn to it because now it's possible.
2
American education is broken on all levels.
Many students in Community Colleges - and in 4 years colleges and universities, for that matter- need remediation in reading, writing and math.
Just check Youtube for interviews with college students who don't know who won the Civil War or from whom the United States won its freedom.
I'm all for free tuition from Pre-K to college, but for quality education, not what we have now.
Many students in Community Colleges - and in 4 years colleges and universities, for that matter- need remediation in reading, writing and math.
Just check Youtube for interviews with college students who don't know who won the Civil War or from whom the United States won its freedom.
I'm all for free tuition from Pre-K to college, but for quality education, not what we have now.
How about an "Adopt A Student" program?
There are many of us out there with successful careers, working or retired. Sometimes a student just needs an ear or a helping hand. Someone to step in and help pay for their books or take them to dinner or review their papers.
I have done this on several occasions providing housing, employment opportunities or tuition assistance when all else failed. For the most part, there has been success.
It takes a village to raise a child.
There are many of us out there with successful careers, working or retired. Sometimes a student just needs an ear or a helping hand. Someone to step in and help pay for their books or take them to dinner or review their papers.
I have done this on several occasions providing housing, employment opportunities or tuition assistance when all else failed. For the most part, there has been success.
It takes a village to raise a child.
1
Assuming one accepts the notion that federal dollars are better spent the way David Brooks favors (versus Obama's initiative), the question then becomes: How many Republicans could be persuaded to come on board the "Brooks Initiative"? I'm guessing the number ranges between zero and none. Until I'm convinced otherwise, I see Mr. Brooks' proposals as merely providing Republicans with an excuse to continue to do nothing.
5
where do these "federal dollars" come from?
Unlike Obamacare, they have actually proffered a plan. Thus our Congressional children do seem to be learning, if glacially slowly.
They come from the US government, the only source of US dollars in the world. Dollars do not exist until the US government spends them into existence.
There is a TOPS scholarship program in LA that can be obtained by attaining a 2.5 average. John White, the Head of Education &clone of Arne Duncan called the program a tragedy because most of those qualifying were white &
their families made between 39 & $71,000 a year.( hardly much).
He wants to lower the standard to 2.0.
Now I find it inconceivable that the same mindset does not exist in the
Obama Administration. Does anyone seriously believe that Obama
would stop with those, who are not poor or black? There is nothing wrong with that except that it will include many more people & much more money. IMO we will be sold another gigantic program costing much more than they admit....another Obamacare.
their families made between 39 & $71,000 a year.( hardly much).
He wants to lower the standard to 2.0.
Now I find it inconceivable that the same mindset does not exist in the
Obama Administration. Does anyone seriously believe that Obama
would stop with those, who are not poor or black? There is nothing wrong with that except that it will include many more people & much more money. IMO we will be sold another gigantic program costing much more than they admit....another Obamacare.
1
I have taught at a community college for 15 years, and I have known many students who worked full time (40 hrs. per week) and took a full time class load as well and still struggled financially. Many of them wind up dropping out with medical issues because of their impossible schedules and lack of health care, something that Obamacare is at least starting to address, albeit inadequately. For many of these students, saving even a few hundred dollars on tuition would make an enormous difference in their lives and in their ability to finish their educations.
Mr. Brooks is correct in saying that something beyond free tuition is needed, but it is a good start. Money is fungible, and if you don't have to use it for tuition then you can use it for books, food, rent, etc.
Mr. Brooks is correct in saying that something beyond free tuition is needed, but it is a good start. Money is fungible, and if you don't have to use it for tuition then you can use it for books, food, rent, etc.
4
There is approximately zero chance that the GOP will appropriate money for child care, tutoring, etc.
5
You'd focus on boosting trade schools and professional training - not the for-profit scams that seem to dominate the field now. And on making the remedial work unnecessary by improving the public schools - which, gasp, would include a nationwide standardised core curriculum and tests, so that a degree from Poshville High, Gopher Gulch Regional High, Our Lady of Perpetual Motion High, etc. all meant the student had mastered the same knowledge base. High standards - there is a reason fields of study are called 'disciplines'. And also, once those standards are implemented, require all four-year schools to accept credits from the community colleges or lose their own accreditation. Not to mention some kind of standardised core curriculum and grading in the colleges, so that a diploma meant something more than 'showed up now and then'. (It wouldn't hurt to encourage commuter schools rather than dorm life - and kick out, with no refunds, for drinking and drugs on campus. Period.)
Or - what seems to be the favoured plan, accepted by both Obama and Brooks - is to assume everyone needs a 'college degree'. In which case we can take the Wizard's route, and just hand every scarecrow a 'diploma'. Preferably along with their birth certificate, which would save a lot of time and paperwork.
Or - what seems to be the favoured plan, accepted by both Obama and Brooks - is to assume everyone needs a 'college degree'. In which case we can take the Wizard's route, and just hand every scarecrow a 'diploma'. Preferably along with their birth certificate, which would save a lot of time and paperwork.
1
The column claims that www should not not spend money on college tuition because students also have other expenses. That sounds like Budgeting 1.0. In Budgeting 2.0 we would increase aid to help with some of the other expenses. The investment cost would be higher. Would Mr. Brooks support that or simply complaint about an old-fashioned attempt to fix a problem by spending actual money to address it?
2
The following could be one sign that America is working towards social mobility. If when we bail out bankers for their misbehavior, and they do not hoard it or loan it, except for credit card balance extensions at high interests rates, then we will know America is ready to help all of "We the People."
1
A considerable portion of Community College "drop-outs" are students transferring to traditional 4-year degree programs. You need to enroll in a Community College degree in order to receive financial aid. You need to be enrolled in a four year institution in order to take advanced classes. If you hope to graduate in 4 years, you'll often need to start taking advanced classes sophomore year. Students enroll in CC programs knowing they'll complete prerequisites and leave without ever completing the the full program. Hence, you end up with inflated drop-out rates.
4
Meanwhile, let's look at how David Brooks' GOP party actually voted on college education issues:
In May 2013, by a vote of 221-198, House Republicans passed a bill that would raise student loan rates. The Washington Post reported that the bill would cause the interest rate on a Stafford Loan to double, “Students who max out their subsidized Stafford loans over four years would pay $8,331 in interest payments under the Republican bill, and $3,450 if rates were kept at 3.4 percent and the loans would be turned over to 'free market' banks.
In Sept 2014, Senate Republicans blocked Sen. Elizabeth Warren from bringing up her bill to allow students to refinance their loans to lower rates.
“Millions of young people are just stuck,” Warren said. “They can’t buy homes, they can’t buy cars … all because they are struggling under the weight of student loan debt.”
Democrats argue that the $1.2 trillion in student debt in the United States is harming economic growth.
The Bank on Students Emergency Loan Refinancing Act would have allowed more than 25 million people to refinance their student loans to today’s lower interest rates of less than 4 percent.
The Republican Party refuses to show any human decency to America's college students, their parents or to the country's economic and educational future....and Mr. Brooks continues to pretend otherwise.
Shameful.
In May 2013, by a vote of 221-198, House Republicans passed a bill that would raise student loan rates. The Washington Post reported that the bill would cause the interest rate on a Stafford Loan to double, “Students who max out their subsidized Stafford loans over four years would pay $8,331 in interest payments under the Republican bill, and $3,450 if rates were kept at 3.4 percent and the loans would be turned over to 'free market' banks.
In Sept 2014, Senate Republicans blocked Sen. Elizabeth Warren from bringing up her bill to allow students to refinance their loans to lower rates.
“Millions of young people are just stuck,” Warren said. “They can’t buy homes, they can’t buy cars … all because they are struggling under the weight of student loan debt.”
Democrats argue that the $1.2 trillion in student debt in the United States is harming economic growth.
The Bank on Students Emergency Loan Refinancing Act would have allowed more than 25 million people to refinance their student loans to today’s lower interest rates of less than 4 percent.
The Republican Party refuses to show any human decency to America's college students, their parents or to the country's economic and educational future....and Mr. Brooks continues to pretend otherwise.
Shameful.
51
It's possible that the community college drop out rate of 66 to 80 percent is due to the fact that 66 to 80 percent of the student body does not belong in college. Taxpayer money would be better spent by offering better trade/job specific programs for those who are ready to better themselves.
2
It amuses me that we have now seen this from a host of folks who generally come from the conservative side. The attack is against doing something that would only help middle class students (and the few upper middle class students who would dare set foot in a community college). There is much to be disturbed about in David’s critique. Yes, this idea from Obama may be a mediocre one, but then where is the better idea? If the Republican House immediately put forth a plan to increase Pell Grants and to reduce student loan costs… well then I would accept David’s arguments. But all we have here is part of the move to quash a well-intended idea. Then we have the really absurd idea that students who do not qualify for Pell Grants can afford college. But it ain’t that easy. With all the demands on a middle class income, from funding your own pension, to paying more for health care, college is – if not out of reach, barely affordable for most genuinely middle class families.
In fact, the financial aid formulas are out of date – they worked in an era when kids could easily find work in the Summer that paid a fair share of their tuition, and when most parents had company sponsored pensions. They don’t work now.
In fact, the financial aid formulas are out of date – they worked in an era when kids could easily find work in the Summer that paid a fair share of their tuition, and when most parents had company sponsored pensions. They don’t work now.
1
There is one idea here that holds water, and that's the one about how families with middle or above middle incomes can afford community college, so they don't need a subsidy. I remember my son taking classes at the local community college and, because I'm a middle income guy, I was able to write a check for the whole tuition at the beginning of a semester without a problem. Nothing like the exorbitant tuition charged by the university he attended after he left the community college. The community college's cost was less than one tenth of the university's. I mean, I certainly wouldn't mind taking a gift from the government but, in all fairness, why use tax dollars where they are not needed? Make community college free for those who can't afford it, sure, but don't spend money where it is not necessary.
1
"The Obama plan would largely be a subsidy for the middle- and upper-middle-class students who are now paying tuition and who could afford to pay it in the years ahead": David. I wonder. Do upper middle class and middle class students even go to community colleges in large numbers? I doubt that.
And David wonders whether remedial courses "work". The Tennessee progam he likes shows such work does help students stay in school and graduate.
So the problem is helping the lower-socio-economic student stay? Free tuition is indeed a start for the 62% without Pells. It means fewer hours at McD's or cleaning houses. David is correct on many points: y care and food stamps and Pell Grants need buttressing. We subsidize agri-biz and oil exploration. We under-tax billionaires. Why not help the 47%? Obama offers help. David wants more aid? Let him become, gulp, a "liberal" on tax and education matters, on unionization, on help for the minorities, and on sharing the wealth.
And David wonders whether remedial courses "work". The Tennessee progam he likes shows such work does help students stay in school and graduate.
So the problem is helping the lower-socio-economic student stay? Free tuition is indeed a start for the 62% without Pells. It means fewer hours at McD's or cleaning houses. David is correct on many points: y care and food stamps and Pell Grants need buttressing. We subsidize agri-biz and oil exploration. We under-tax billionaires. Why not help the 47%? Obama offers help. David wants more aid? Let him become, gulp, a "liberal" on tax and education matters, on unionization, on help for the minorities, and on sharing the wealth.
2
We have an earlier example of free college tuition and living expenses that worked very well. Under the GI Bill, millions of veterans attended college or obtained vocational training after World War II.
I don't know if conservatives of the immediate post-war era were gnashing their teeth at the GI Bill the same way they do now when they think about spending tax money on other people's education. If so, history has proved them to be very short-sighted, as the bill has been credited with being a major factor in the creation of the American middle class.
There's a lot of research on how to help people make it through college, some of it reported just a few days ago in this paper. For example, simply giving students nudges via text messages at important times significantly increases the likelihood that they will be able to successfully navigate their way into and through college.
If we had the will, we could fix our broken educational system. I don't know when we stopped thinking big in this country. Was it the moment Ronald Reagan proclaimed that government is the problem? Look at the results of the GI Bill and you can see that was a complete lie. But we seem to have internalized the lie and handed the reins of the country over to private enterprise and the wealthy to determine our national path. What could possibly go wrong with that?
I don't know if conservatives of the immediate post-war era were gnashing their teeth at the GI Bill the same way they do now when they think about spending tax money on other people's education. If so, history has proved them to be very short-sighted, as the bill has been credited with being a major factor in the creation of the American middle class.
There's a lot of research on how to help people make it through college, some of it reported just a few days ago in this paper. For example, simply giving students nudges via text messages at important times significantly increases the likelihood that they will be able to successfully navigate their way into and through college.
If we had the will, we could fix our broken educational system. I don't know when we stopped thinking big in this country. Was it the moment Ronald Reagan proclaimed that government is the problem? Look at the results of the GI Bill and you can see that was a complete lie. But we seem to have internalized the lie and handed the reins of the country over to private enterprise and the wealthy to determine our national path. What could possibly go wrong with that?
2
They've been instrumental in ratcheting down the GI Bill to where it no longer serves the purpose it used to. Why we should assume they're going to suddenly fund education because they're talking about it is beyond me.
The GOP may be the Etch-A-Sketch Party, but the electorate remembers.
The GOP may be the Etch-A-Sketch Party, but the electorate remembers.
1
David, you know your conservative colleagues better than I do---there is going to be a lot of grumbling over the tuition idea, they will get out of their seats and start screaming if the President mentioned your "social capital" ideas ---socialism is just around the corner. Having said that our approach to social capital formation is always focused on remediating/assisting poor outcomes of a system rather than focusing our monies on inputs to the system. We should be placing every dime we have into a world-class pre-school program and child-care system that, as the research shows, is the best strategy for reducing drop-outs along the way. Should add, the research you reference on grit, motivation, and attachment is, let us say, is faith-based, not evidenced based.
3
Be very careful what you wish for... "Free community college for all" will ultimately widen the gap between rich and poor. The strings attached to the plan include (fed-style) "accountability measures"--translation: myopic standardized testing and teacher evaluations based on the results of the testing. The feds have already ruined k-12 by doubling down on the failed test-'em-until-they-cry policies that eat up tremendous amounts of time and resources which were ushered in with "No Child Left Behind" when they brow-beat the cash-starved states into implementing the requirements of "Race to the Top." Over a dozen years and there is no evidence that the model has been good for students; but it is great for the test publishers, ed tech companies, educational consultants, and anyone else in it for the money.
Community college for the poor will end up becoming even more like advanced high school, but it will be one more hoop that the poor will HAVE TO dance through to get a job people once would have qualified for with just a high school diploma. And the rich will continue to send their children to expensive private colleges where they make the social connections that lead to successful careers.
Community college for the poor will end up becoming even more like advanced high school, but it will be one more hoop that the poor will HAVE TO dance through to get a job people once would have qualified for with just a high school diploma. And the rich will continue to send their children to expensive private colleges where they make the social connections that lead to successful careers.
2
There struggle to stay in is part of their education . I think we owe them that because the ones who survive will make contributions to our society in positive ways. Also, many teachers in our big universities must concentrate on doing research rather than teaching.
1
Buzz kill, David!
But I'm guessing you're mostly right. As The Grey Lady's conservative columnist of note, though, your (mostly) black-and-white portrayal of the President's proposal condemns it without at all addressing the real problem, which is that your Republican true believers keep assuring that true black-and-white any real support for the middle and working classes goes into the legislative dumper before there's even debate.
The President's $60-billion starts the ball rolling, beginning our investment in America's work force and our future. The real problem with this column is not that it's information isn't true; it's that the expectation that conservatives running congress will act on your insights. Write about THAT. At least conservatives listen to you.
But I'm guessing you're mostly right. As The Grey Lady's conservative columnist of note, though, your (mostly) black-and-white portrayal of the President's proposal condemns it without at all addressing the real problem, which is that your Republican true believers keep assuring that true black-and-white any real support for the middle and working classes goes into the legislative dumper before there's even debate.
The President's $60-billion starts the ball rolling, beginning our investment in America's work force and our future. The real problem with this column is not that it's information isn't true; it's that the expectation that conservatives running congress will act on your insights. Write about THAT. At least conservatives listen to you.
4
David Brooks writes, "You’d figure out the remedial education mess."
There is nothing to figure out. Remediation in college is necessary because the public schools have collapsed. What other possible explanation can there be to a system in which young adults cannot add fractions or construct an English paragraph---and STILL get a high school diploma?
In other words, it is bad enough that young people can go through twelve years of school without picking up essential skills, but then the state lies about its failure by granting them diplomas.
This is fraud, pure and simple. And community colleges are not going to accomplish in one or two semesters what the public schools failed to accomplish in twelve years.
There is nothing to figure out. Remediation in college is necessary because the public schools have collapsed. What other possible explanation can there be to a system in which young adults cannot add fractions or construct an English paragraph---and STILL get a high school diploma?
In other words, it is bad enough that young people can go through twelve years of school without picking up essential skills, but then the state lies about its failure by granting them diplomas.
This is fraud, pure and simple. And community colleges are not going to accomplish in one or two semesters what the public schools failed to accomplish in twelve years.
5
You are right about high schools collapsing. I have taught at two different community colleges for the past 30 years and many of the students do not know how to write a complete sentence, much less a paragraph and yet, they passed high school.
1
They have collapsed in some fraction because both Feds and states are allocating less and demanding more, of all institutions except the elite ones where most of our "representatives"' children attend.
Badphairy, it is important to understand that your assertion is objectively false. Since 1960, spending on public education has risen, **in real terms**, four-fold. There are states in the country in which education spending is approaching 50% of their budgets.
In NYC, education spending is the single largest budget line item, by far. At about 34% of the budget, you would have to add spending on police, fire, and sanitation, and multiply by three to approximate education spending. In other words, NYC is a school district that runs its own police, fire, and sanitation services.
The U.S. spends more on education than every other industrialized country, with the possible exception of Switzerland. We get less educational bang for the buck than anybody else.
We some serious problems with our educational system, but lack of spending is most assuredly not the problem. To the contrary, pretty much the only reasonable inference is that the more we spend, the worse our schools.
In NYC, education spending is the single largest budget line item, by far. At about 34% of the budget, you would have to add spending on police, fire, and sanitation, and multiply by three to approximate education spending. In other words, NYC is a school district that runs its own police, fire, and sanitation services.
The U.S. spends more on education than every other industrialized country, with the possible exception of Switzerland. We get less educational bang for the buck than anybody else.
We some serious problems with our educational system, but lack of spending is most assuredly not the problem. To the contrary, pretty much the only reasonable inference is that the more we spend, the worse our schools.
I'd like to see the statistics on Mr Brooks's claim that the tuition paying community college students are from middle and upper class.
There are some situations of course. For example, my friend's girl ended up staying at a community college for a year so she could catch up (with let say her maturity!) She is going to BU now and her dad foots the bills. However, many community college students are working not just to support themselves but sometimes their families. So any attempt to lower the barrier of entry is a good thing.
More importantly, while there is something to say about pursuing something that you have to pay for it, many countries have free tuition - period. For instance, Ireland. That is how it boosts such an educated workforce.
Using the imagery of Human Capital. I'd say we cannot get to 2.0 because 1.0 has been undone for the past couple of decades. That is not to say the good points mentioned in this column are without merit. Absolutely you need to make college relevant. Absolutely you need to attract those listless individuals back to school. Absolutely you need to motivate them to stay in. Ironically, making it too easy may be counterproductive. However, the least of all barriers should be financial. President Obama's proposal may not be perfect but it does link hard work (good grade) with financial support. A little bit carrot and a little bit stick. $60B sounds like a paltry some to lift people out of not only poverty but also listlessness
There are some situations of course. For example, my friend's girl ended up staying at a community college for a year so she could catch up (with let say her maturity!) She is going to BU now and her dad foots the bills. However, many community college students are working not just to support themselves but sometimes their families. So any attempt to lower the barrier of entry is a good thing.
More importantly, while there is something to say about pursuing something that you have to pay for it, many countries have free tuition - period. For instance, Ireland. That is how it boosts such an educated workforce.
Using the imagery of Human Capital. I'd say we cannot get to 2.0 because 1.0 has been undone for the past couple of decades. That is not to say the good points mentioned in this column are without merit. Absolutely you need to make college relevant. Absolutely you need to attract those listless individuals back to school. Absolutely you need to motivate them to stay in. Ironically, making it too easy may be counterproductive. However, the least of all barriers should be financial. President Obama's proposal may not be perfect but it does link hard work (good grade) with financial support. A little bit carrot and a little bit stick. $60B sounds like a paltry some to lift people out of not only poverty but also listlessness
2
In 1970 I was a divorced mother of two who was also the first in my family attending college. I worked two jobs, but the state paid for my child care. Also, I received Pell Grants and loans. In 1972 I received my bachelors degree. Fifteen years later I received my masters degree. And 13 years after that, I graduated from law school. I was almost 53 when I started practicing law. At 71, I am still practicing law. All three of my children are college graduates. One is a lawyer. I have two grandchildren attending college. None of this would have been possible except that it was possible, in the late 60's and early 70's for a single mother with children to attend college. Today it is not possible for people as poor as I was then to borrow enough money to go to college. In the 60's and 70's both political parties supported education.
190
Congratulations, Phyllis. You have my deepest admiration.
1
The Obama plan is a step in the right direction. Mr. Brooks, your arguments seem to make sense, but it isn't obvious that you have had an inside view. Maybe you have. From first hand experience, I have seen students who desperately need ANYTHING, including a tuition break. I know these students. Free tuition could be the deciding factor for many. Many are NOT already getting free tuition in the other ways that you describe. 40 years ago, when I was a college student in California, the community college system was free, with seamless transfer to state colleges and universities. My tuition at the University of California was less than my current students pay for books alone. Community college tuition is now far more than what I paid at a 4 year university. What we have seen in the ensuing decades is a shifting baseline. There is a mistaken perception that the cost of education might be a little steep, but is affordable through loans and grants, and people just need to apply for them. I disagree. Today's students need the chance that I was given, starting with affordable tuition (and free for community colleges).
2
A revenue-neutral solution would be to take the money that will be available when Jim Inhofe defunds the EPA and use it to subsidize community college programs in the exciting new fields of toxic cleanup, flood damage control, and public relations.
3
Mr. Brooks' sense makes good sense, although the psychological signal of free tuition shouldn't be misunderestmated (just kidding!)
As for Congress taking constructivemeasures to improve upon the President's core idea, Mr. Brooks must be living in a fact-free bunker. Congress's sole mission is pure search-and-destroy, Mitch McConnell's recent soothing words to the contrary.
One idea would be to harness the power of network technology with the Vista and Foster Grandparents program ideas that marshal the untapped human capital "bank" of retirees, unemployed and underemployed to provide live and asynchronous 24/7 free access to online mentoring for students at-risk of dropping out.
Such a program would require careful design, competent management and solid long-term funding, but America has confronted and solved tougher challenges than this. The bigger challenge is to recapture an America with the humanity and will to tackle major challenges in the first place.
www.endthemadnessnow.org
As for Congress taking constructivemeasures to improve upon the President's core idea, Mr. Brooks must be living in a fact-free bunker. Congress's sole mission is pure search-and-destroy, Mitch McConnell's recent soothing words to the contrary.
One idea would be to harness the power of network technology with the Vista and Foster Grandparents program ideas that marshal the untapped human capital "bank" of retirees, unemployed and underemployed to provide live and asynchronous 24/7 free access to online mentoring for students at-risk of dropping out.
Such a program would require careful design, competent management and solid long-term funding, but America has confronted and solved tougher challenges than this. The bigger challenge is to recapture an America with the humanity and will to tackle major challenges in the first place.
www.endthemadnessnow.org
1
"Community college drop out rates now hover somewhere between 66 percent and 80 percent."
It would be interesting to see research on whether or not "free" has any impact on retention. We know that when events (lectures, concerts, etc.) are free there frequently is a dramatic increase in no show percentages over events with even a nominal admission charge. And free Massive Open Online Courses certainly experience much lower retention than in-person courses. Human psychology to follow through on commitments is fickle and multi-faceted, but some variation on free (i.e., nominal tuition rebated when coursework completed) might be a better retention enhancement.
It would be interesting to see research on whether or not "free" has any impact on retention. We know that when events (lectures, concerts, etc.) are free there frequently is a dramatic increase in no show percentages over events with even a nominal admission charge. And free Massive Open Online Courses certainly experience much lower retention than in-person courses. Human psychology to follow through on commitments is fickle and multi-faceted, but some variation on free (i.e., nominal tuition rebated when coursework completed) might be a better retention enhancement.
3
Germany manages to have free college for all; and graduate and professional schools including medical.
So why can't US?
So why can't US?
7
Mr. Brooks states: "The important task is to help students graduate", and elsewhere that to help students graduate some states are dropping remediation requirements. This is merely extending the failed high school policy of everybody will graduate regardless of preparation or motivation to the community college level. I taught for 10 years in the Florida public school system at middle and high school levels and was under constant pressure from administrators to pass "students" that were below grade level, sometimes way below grade level, in academic skills and motivation.
So Mr. Brook's solution is to continue to pass ignorant, unmotivated students through the system? The fundamental problem is the American public's lack of interest in, and unwillingness to work at, academics.
So Mr. Brook's solution is to continue to pass ignorant, unmotivated students through the system? The fundamental problem is the American public's lack of interest in, and unwillingness to work at, academics.
2
David Brooks. Professional fault-finder. This column tears it for me. I'm done with him. It's not worth the time to read him in hopes of finding the one column of value he might write in a year. Do read down the page for more positive comments than this from educators. Bye!
4
Apologies if these points have already been made, but David Brooks is missing two points:
a) Obama's proposal of tuition reimbursement is tied to a 2.5 GPA and progress toward graduation. That negates Brooks' concern about subsidizing higher dropout rates and
b) money is fungible. If a student gets tuition reimbursement, the student can then use the money for books, housing, etc.
Why didn't David Brooks see this?
a) Obama's proposal of tuition reimbursement is tied to a 2.5 GPA and progress toward graduation. That negates Brooks' concern about subsidizing higher dropout rates and
b) money is fungible. If a student gets tuition reimbursement, the student can then use the money for books, housing, etc.
Why didn't David Brooks see this?
5
Mr. Brooks' opening paragraph suggests he attends many CC commencements; that very dubious conclusion signaled I should read the rest of the column with skepticism. However, my skepticism turned to disbelief.
Mr. Brooks' ideas to promote CC graduation are right out of a Progressive's handbook: provide CC students support with living expenses, childcare, guidance counselors, textbooks, transportation, and even remedial classes. Mr. Brooks points out that some states have gone so far as to drop remedial courses (which states I wonder; controlled by which political party I wonder).
Cutting remedial classes results from funding cuts; funding cuts are the Republican Reactionaries' only solution to balancing federal and state budgets. All of Mr. Brooks' Progressive Democratic suggestions are anathema to the Republican Reactionaries--they require funding paid for by taxes.
If Mr. Brooks could get his Republican Reactionaries to adopt and fund the Progressive ideas he sets out I would be happily flabbergasted. But it will never happen.
Mr. Brooks' ideas to promote CC graduation are right out of a Progressive's handbook: provide CC students support with living expenses, childcare, guidance counselors, textbooks, transportation, and even remedial classes. Mr. Brooks points out that some states have gone so far as to drop remedial courses (which states I wonder; controlled by which political party I wonder).
Cutting remedial classes results from funding cuts; funding cuts are the Republican Reactionaries' only solution to balancing federal and state budgets. All of Mr. Brooks' Progressive Democratic suggestions are anathema to the Republican Reactionaries--they require funding paid for by taxes.
If Mr. Brooks could get his Republican Reactionaries to adopt and fund the Progressive ideas he sets out I would be happily flabbergasted. But it will never happen.
5
As usual Mr. Brooks first impulse is to divide and conquer so that a universal benefit becomes mired in the muck of means testing, etc. Despite his apparently updated language there is nothing essentially new here, as it's been a favorite ploy of the right since time immemorial: Dickens and Hugo would have been familiar with this line of thought.
While I share a concern regarding graduation rates, free community college will undoubtedly increase the number of college graduates and that after all is the goal. Brooks implies "But at what cost?" My rebuttal:
1) What is the cost of the Osprey and numerous other war related boondoggles? We're talking trillions...
2) What is the social cost to our democracy of Citizen's United? (I strongly suspect the right will rue the day they unleashed that one...)
3) How much tax revenue is lost to the .1% whose effective rates of taxation are an international joke?
4) How much did the TARP and Fed support the bail-out of wealthy people, who in real terms should be flat broke, if not destitute, cost? (Will we ever really know? But the Republicans are worried about non-existent inflation.)
etc.
While I share a concern regarding graduation rates, free community college will undoubtedly increase the number of college graduates and that after all is the goal. Brooks implies "But at what cost?" My rebuttal:
1) What is the cost of the Osprey and numerous other war related boondoggles? We're talking trillions...
2) What is the social cost to our democracy of Citizen's United? (I strongly suspect the right will rue the day they unleashed that one...)
3) How much tax revenue is lost to the .1% whose effective rates of taxation are an international joke?
4) How much did the TARP and Fed support the bail-out of wealthy people, who in real terms should be flat broke, if not destitute, cost? (Will we ever really know? But the Republicans are worried about non-existent inflation.)
etc.
4
Why stop there? Your logic supports charging for high school. All those middle class parents could afford tuition and the money spent on public schools could be directed elsewhere. In fact, your article is simply an attack upon free public education, which is critical for social mobility. It's a dirty, subversive piece, offering ideas designed to kill the good without presenting a perfect that would be implemented in the present Congress. Let them do their own dirty work.
6
Some good points, Mr. Brooks, especially support services for community college students. After having taught for 30 years at such a college, I would suggest three tests for incoming students, measuring aptitude, academic background, and--especially--motivation. Then advising students on the basis of results of such tests whether they should enroll at all and what they need to remedy any deficiencies.
What test exists that reliably measures "motivation"?
"...surround colleges, students and their families with supporting structures."
If you look at students who go to expensive four year colleges, typically they come from backgrounds that provide (all their lives) the supporting structures that guide them to graduation (wealth, good academics, extra curricula, good health, stable living conditions, other opportunities) — possibly one of the reasons they don't get the huge cheers that community college graduates receive is the difference in life experience. When one has many struggles over a long time, even little victories deliver a huge sense of accomplishment.
I suggest the problem with the community college drop-out rate isn't the cost, it's a much deeper social/economic issue.
If you look at students who go to expensive four year colleges, typically they come from backgrounds that provide (all their lives) the supporting structures that guide them to graduation (wealth, good academics, extra curricula, good health, stable living conditions, other opportunities) — possibly one of the reasons they don't get the huge cheers that community college graduates receive is the difference in life experience. When one has many struggles over a long time, even little victories deliver a huge sense of accomplishment.
I suggest the problem with the community college drop-out rate isn't the cost, it's a much deeper social/economic issue.
2
I'm certain that in the Republican response to tonight's State of The Union address, Joni Ernst will present a series of thoughtful counter-proposals along the lines David Brooks presents here. There will be a spirited debate in both houses of Congress and legislation co-sponsored by Kristen Gillibrand and Marsha Blackburn will be signed into law. The law will take effect and after a few years, its unintended consequences , inefficiencies and unexpected successes and failures will be studied. Once again, proposals will be offered to tweak the law in order to improve it, again debated and passed through Congress and signed into law by Jeb Bush. The lives of millions of Americans will be improved, and best of all, will re-affirm the popularity and efficacy of our Constitutional Democracy, with its system of checks-and-balances. Approval ratings for our Congress and President will soar, as problem after problem is addressed in the same manner and progress, sometimes slow, other times stunningly fast, is made. David Brooks discovers his true calling as a writer of political fantasy novels--a stunning new genre, and heir to Harry Potter.
Any time Democrats suggest something be free for everybody it brings back the specter of George McGovern.
However, Brooks' idea that instead of free tuition the government should pay for the student's food, housing, child care, bus fare, etc., is a distinction without a difference.
I'm not sure of the usefulness of a 2 year degree that takes 3-4 years to earn in today's job market.
My 4 year degree earned in the early 1970s in 4 years was only marginally useful in finding a job, and then not even in my field of study.
However, Brooks' idea that instead of free tuition the government should pay for the student's food, housing, child care, bus fare, etc., is a distinction without a difference.
I'm not sure of the usefulness of a 2 year degree that takes 3-4 years to earn in today's job market.
My 4 year degree earned in the early 1970s in 4 years was only marginally useful in finding a job, and then not even in my field of study.
Community colleges are crucial for today's students. I teach at a High School and many of the students are amazed when I tell them how they can get a QUALITY education at a Community College that is affordable and complete. This is critical.....There are far too many good students who need to know that this is a viable and excellent alternative!
2
Okay fine, let's dump on a great idea with the tired old "liberal" accusation. Wouldn't it be possible, rhetorically, to applaud President Obama for foregrounding this important initiative and then, graciously, offer some enhancements? Improvements? As someone who teaches public college students and has taught community college students as well, I know President Obama's "plan" and (no thanks needed for the respect I'm showing, Mr. Brooks) Mr. Brook's enhancements all have great value. If at present, President Obama's plan is yet to be fleshed out, in an ideal non-partisan world, Mr. Brooks's suggestions would make their way to the table.
artist21
artist21
3
Mr. Brooks brings up serious points. It is a fact that even four year universities are faced with a great number of middle class students from "good schools" who are deficient in reading comprehension and writing skills. One can only guess the situation with kids from poorer communities where the schools aren't so good. Let's hope President Obama's proposal addresses this and crucial problems such as child care.
America''s businesses need skilled people. America's tool box of human capital is low. If we're going to consider paying for community college, would that include training in IT, plumbing, welding and other occupations where a person can make a decent living? If not, it should. If done right, the ROI to the country could be terrific.
America''s businesses need skilled people. America's tool box of human capital is low. If we're going to consider paying for community college, would that include training in IT, plumbing, welding and other occupations where a person can make a decent living? If not, it should. If done right, the ROI to the country could be terrific.
One step further and you had it, David.
You left out Human Commitment 0.0. No program to further learning at any level will work without the commitment of the learner.
During Human Capital 1.0, there were jobs and a better future for almost everyone who improved their skills and learning. No more. Most of the better paying the jobs are long gone. Learning isn't needed if you can get by just fine with the safety nets.
Dig a little deeper and get back to us. There's got to be a better answer. Free Community Ed isn't the answer.
You left out Human Commitment 0.0. No program to further learning at any level will work without the commitment of the learner.
During Human Capital 1.0, there were jobs and a better future for almost everyone who improved their skills and learning. No more. Most of the better paying the jobs are long gone. Learning isn't needed if you can get by just fine with the safety nets.
Dig a little deeper and get back to us. There's got to be a better answer. Free Community Ed isn't the answer.
1
I teach (engineering) in a community college. I've been doing it for 30+ years. In my observation, the various, college remedial courses (in math and language) are actually pretty effective. A fair number of our remedial students (here in New Jersey) use English as a second-language. Our remedial programs seem to "jump-start" these "ESL" students and they end up with success.
Also: programs related to science, technology,engineering and math (STEM) seem like a very good investment (whether we're speaking about community colleges or 4-year schools). I would like to see a continued emphasis on STEM programs in community colleges because they have a great "bang-for-the-buck". The vast majority of my grads get jobs in the actual discipline area that they are studying. In other words, my engineering students don't end up working in retail or tele-marketing......they end up with engineering jobs.
In fact, one of the issues in my school is that our STEM students get "lured" away by decent jobs *before* they graduate or move on to a 4-year school.
I always enjoy and appreciate Mr. Brooks writings (though I do not always agree with him). I would like read his views on STEM-specific community college programs.
Also: programs related to science, technology,engineering and math (STEM) seem like a very good investment (whether we're speaking about community colleges or 4-year schools). I would like to see a continued emphasis on STEM programs in community colleges because they have a great "bang-for-the-buck". The vast majority of my grads get jobs in the actual discipline area that they are studying. In other words, my engineering students don't end up working in retail or tele-marketing......they end up with engineering jobs.
In fact, one of the issues in my school is that our STEM students get "lured" away by decent jobs *before* they graduate or move on to a 4-year school.
I always enjoy and appreciate Mr. Brooks writings (though I do not always agree with him). I would like read his views on STEM-specific community college programs.
I'd do one better, Mr. Brooks. Assuming Congress would pass this proposal--or indeed anything in tonight's speech, which is dubious at best--I'd use that $60 billion in a combo program.
First year tuition is free, along with an assigned mentor (to provide educational and financial counsel)--students would be required to to meet with their mentors once weekly.
For those who successfully complete the first year, tuition isn't free, but the support structures you list, are. In other words, some students are bound to drop out no matter what. But those who are motivated get essentially the same amount of financial and social supports at the time they are needed.
To appease Congress--as well as many social program evaluators--the program would have a shelf life. Let's say, 4 years. That would be enough time to compare graduation rates before and after the "Community College Support Program" has been in effect.
But again, I'm not optimistic about your, or my proposal given the makeup of Congress.
First year tuition is free, along with an assigned mentor (to provide educational and financial counsel)--students would be required to to meet with their mentors once weekly.
For those who successfully complete the first year, tuition isn't free, but the support structures you list, are. In other words, some students are bound to drop out no matter what. But those who are motivated get essentially the same amount of financial and social supports at the time they are needed.
To appease Congress--as well as many social program evaluators--the program would have a shelf life. Let's say, 4 years. That would be enough time to compare graduation rates before and after the "Community College Support Program" has been in effect.
But again, I'm not optimistic about your, or my proposal given the makeup of Congress.
4
As Gemli so accurately points out, Congress will not so politely give the President the finger and move on. Anything benefitting the moochers and takers has no place amonst our honorable law makers.
It's a darn shame to waste another two years with pettiness and bickering but Congress will take that route anyway. That's how the slugs travel: slowly with a slime trail.
It's a darn shame to waste another two years with pettiness and bickering but Congress will take that route anyway. That's how the slugs travel: slowly with a slime trail.
5
An example of making perfect the enemy of good.
4
Mr. Brooks has a point. However, when he says scrap the program and rededicate the money..., his GOP will only hear, "scrap the program."
3
Your arguments about dropout rates and ancillary costs are legitimate, but you are killing the spirit and hope of the Obama proposal, stopping it dead in its tracks with negativity. He's offering people a chance to grow and learn. It is always up to the student to do the footwork. Germany, Sweden, name the Euro country and they offer their citizens a free path to education, because they know that smarter citizens are better citizens. You and your ilk don't want them smart. If they're too smart, you can't keep them under your heels anymore. Too bad you're so negative.
1
The reaction of many of the comments to Mr. Brooks’s column, as well as some of lines in the article itself, highlight one of the problems in American political discussion. Many individuals (especially those who take an active part in political discussion) define themselves as liberal or conservative and need to structure their arguments to fit the label even though they are taking more flexible positions. Mr. Brooks is supporting government aid for people to attend community college. He makes a reasonable argument that the aid can be spent more effectively by addressing essential student needs other than tuition. Poor students already get tuition support and wealthier individuals can afford it. That sounds like a liberal policy to me; just spend the money more wisely. Yet Mr. Brooks has to assert his Conservative label by claiming his suggestion is not ‘liberal orthodoxy’. It also seems many of the liberal commenters need to make adversarial responses to combat an identified Conservative. Why can’t we have political discussions that are constructive, where people reasonably consider objections from others to develop a consensus that addresses a wide range of potential problems that no one individual sees. Unfortunately, I fear political discourse is going to be more confrontational for the next several years.
1
Free is a price that leads to overconsumption of any product. While education is special and its positive externalities for society are large, there is still an optimal level of it, beyond which returns diminish. Most third world countries have free cradle to university education. The result is engineers and doctors driving taxi cabs in their countries and ours. What this country needs is 2 year apprenticeship type vocational programs that supply more plumbers and electricians, as well as a break in the social taboo against these. A four year college program should always be for the best students and those most likely to benefit from it. Providing it for everyone is feel good populist babble with adverse consequences.
Water's "free" and I don't see rampant overconsumption of it by individual consumers, likewise air. I think your example is less widely applicable than you do. It's VERY applicable to corporations, however.
Yes scrap the "good" and have congress come up with a more comprehensive better plan. Net result; nothing. But that's the Republican agenda, 2.0.
4
Hey, remember their health plan that was better than Obamacare?
Me either.
Me either.
3
"The Obama plan would largely be a subsidy for the middle- and upper middle-class students who are now paying tuition and who could afford to pay it in the years ahead." Horrors, a subsidy to the middle- and upper class. My 50 something husband laid off from his job of 28 years, just as our oldest began his freshman year in 2008. Thank goodness Obama "subsidized" us, by lowering our Cobra payments so our family could keep our health insurance, and extensions on his unemployment payments, as he applied for over 100 jobs. Who wants to hire an old guy? He eventually was hired, but had to move, coming home only for weekends. We had to take equity out of our house, to pay for college, though we had saved since he was born, for his education. He is now in his third year, of a STEM PhD, having won a NFS award. Our youngest to start college next year. We both plan on working till we are 70. Funding our retirement, and paying for college. Our jobs are physical, I'm a RN, he is a lineman. We hope our bodies don't give out.Vacations? Oh ,our last one a road trip in 2007.I can't even imagine what life is like for the workers not in a union, and being paid minimum wage. Mr. Brooks, you are totally out of touch.
2
Busted, David, by this sentence: "It was based on the 1970s liberal orthodoxy that poor people just need more money, that the government could write checks and mobility will improve."
The government, under your plan, would be writing checks for living expenses, etc. I guess you support "liberal orthodoxy", but under your plan, attending school would be harder. I can just imagine the means tests you would impose, making students jump through hurdles before they enroll.
The government, under your plan, would be writing checks for living expenses, etc. I guess you support "liberal orthodoxy", but under your plan, attending school would be harder. I can just imagine the means tests you would impose, making students jump through hurdles before they enroll.
3
I really appreciate the commenters to a David Brooks ' piece. I get sucked into reading his essays by the titles- like " support our students". Sounds good to me. Then I read that the essay wants to scrap Obama's idea of free tuition. And it gives a lot of fancy talk but all I can think of is the sentence about scrapping free tuition. And the commenters explain that the fancy talk is just that- ways to stop even an incremental helping hand up to those not rich.
4
Titles are often written by the editing staff, not the author of the piece.
No experiment in creating an educated, enlightened population escapes the wrath and disdain of the right wing. 60 billion dollars over 10 years is chump change toward that goal, less than 5% of the amount spent on the latest, needless war.
I can see those middle and upper middle income families dancing in the streets over this "subsidy" Mr. Brooks purports this program to be. Subsidies are only for the over-taxed rich ?
Yes, Mr. Brooks, the lives of the poor, the working class, the middle classes are messy. They have child care, transportation, money and family problems that always seem to get in the way. The President's plan is just one small step to help, much more is needed.
I can see those middle and upper middle income families dancing in the streets over this "subsidy" Mr. Brooks purports this program to be. Subsidies are only for the over-taxed rich ?
Yes, Mr. Brooks, the lives of the poor, the working class, the middle classes are messy. They have child care, transportation, money and family problems that always seem to get in the way. The President's plan is just one small step to help, much more is needed.
4
While I am a fan of this initiative, the costs will ultimately go to the taxpayer.
I think this program should be taken further, that students who specialize in IT, or STEM-related fields and graduate on time should have their education paid for.
We don't need any more liberal arts associates degrees. Specialized skills required in today's economy is key to upward mobility and good-paying jobs.
I think this program should be taken further, that students who specialize in IT, or STEM-related fields and graduate on time should have their education paid for.
We don't need any more liberal arts associates degrees. Specialized skills required in today's economy is key to upward mobility and good-paying jobs.
How about kids who graduate from college (community or otherwise) and go into a field of public service (medical, education, social work, etc.) for a certain number of years get their loans paid off in full. Some such programs already exist at the state level. At the federal level, they could monitored and tinkered with over time to point students in the direction of careers that are needed and socially useful.
Statistics are misleading with regard to community college drop out rates. Many who enroll in community colleges do so to gain specific skills, often to enhance their performance at jobs they hold on a full-time basis, or to secure skills that will qualify them to apply for jobs. . So when they enroll, they do not intend to earn a degree. But I agree that money should be made available to help students succeed. We also need to make sure there are jobs available that pay living wages.
2
These student are forced to drop out because their first priority is their survival needs. Only when those are met can people pursue self development and social contributions.
Just think about the talent we would unleash in America if everyone were "free" to pursue their dreams of self development and social contribution without the pitfalls of hunger, homelessness and lack of health care.
Just think about the talent we would unleash in America if everyone were "free" to pursue their dreams of self development and social contribution without the pitfalls of hunger, homelessness and lack of health care.
2
Brooks brings up very good point about the financial burdens at CC, and how best to address them. Of course, subsidizing housing, child care, counseling, remedial programs, textbooks, and general cost-of-living issues that require most students to work full time will require a far larger investment than 60b. I hope the government has the foresight and wisdom to make that happen. (ahem)
However, the CC graduation rate data is gathered and presented in a very misleading way. For example:
1) a student on a two-year degree program decides to leave, with just one class remaining, and transfer early to the 4-year school of their choice.
2) a student takes a couple CC courses to help them in their current job. The student completes those courses with As, and returns to work.
3) between work, uncertainty about what field to pursue, and family issues, a student successfully completes their program in 6 years.
4) a student takes 3 years to complete a 2 year certificate.
5) it took me 14 years to complete my undergrad work, 2 years of which were at CC. I didn't want or need an AD. I now have an MA and teach at a community college.
In each of these, I would argue the student succeeded. Yet the data Brooks cites counts them as failures of the CC to graduate the student. We should have a real conversation about CCs and how to improve their services. But let us do so with reliable data that reflects the reality for most students and their need for both support and flexibility.
However, the CC graduation rate data is gathered and presented in a very misleading way. For example:
1) a student on a two-year degree program decides to leave, with just one class remaining, and transfer early to the 4-year school of their choice.
2) a student takes a couple CC courses to help them in their current job. The student completes those courses with As, and returns to work.
3) between work, uncertainty about what field to pursue, and family issues, a student successfully completes their program in 6 years.
4) a student takes 3 years to complete a 2 year certificate.
5) it took me 14 years to complete my undergrad work, 2 years of which were at CC. I didn't want or need an AD. I now have an MA and teach at a community college.
In each of these, I would argue the student succeeded. Yet the data Brooks cites counts them as failures of the CC to graduate the student. We should have a real conversation about CCs and how to improve their services. But let us do so with reliable data that reflects the reality for most students and their need for both support and flexibility.
4
I was a graduate of The City College of New York. I am now comfortably retired after a career in the investment business. The tax payers of New York City and New York State got their money's worth and then some. Without a "free" college my parents would not have been able to afford a college education for me. What worked for me can work for others.
96
For once, I largely agree with Mr. Brooks. I work part-time for a small community agency that runs a free transition-to-college program for our area in cooperation with the local community college.
Student lives are tough, and many have attended poor schools and need remediation. The college offers such a program but pass-through rates are low, and if a student does not make it he is stuck with a tuition bill for a full semester, or the need to sign up for another semester of remediation. Our program is free for those meeting standards, and comes with intensive tutoring by students who themselves often are “graduates” of the class. Our pass-through “graduation” rates are generally higher than the college’s own, and the cost is zero so there are no extra costs tacked on to the cost of college itself, and no extra cost for “trying.” I believe some of the money spent to make such “free” courses available at all colleges would be a better use of money.
Students are often financially stressed, and could use help. The type of need varies student to student...rent, commuting expenses, child care. I believe a simple cash voucher could work here, with an up-front cash grant that converts into a student loan if the student fails to pass their classes.
The ideal is to make successful college available to as many people as possible. Simple programs that meet needs, don’t lower standards, and help people prepare to achieve these required standards seems a better approach.
Student lives are tough, and many have attended poor schools and need remediation. The college offers such a program but pass-through rates are low, and if a student does not make it he is stuck with a tuition bill for a full semester, or the need to sign up for another semester of remediation. Our program is free for those meeting standards, and comes with intensive tutoring by students who themselves often are “graduates” of the class. Our pass-through “graduation” rates are generally higher than the college’s own, and the cost is zero so there are no extra costs tacked on to the cost of college itself, and no extra cost for “trying.” I believe some of the money spent to make such “free” courses available at all colleges would be a better use of money.
Students are often financially stressed, and could use help. The type of need varies student to student...rent, commuting expenses, child care. I believe a simple cash voucher could work here, with an up-front cash grant that converts into a student loan if the student fails to pass their classes.
The ideal is to make successful college available to as many people as possible. Simple programs that meet needs, don’t lower standards, and help people prepare to achieve these required standards seems a better approach.
14
"I believe a simple cash voucher could work here, with an up-front cash grant that converts into a student loan if the student fails to pass their classes."
Why is it so ingrained into our culture to punish those who "we" feel don't measure up to "our" standards.
The United States has become a mean spirited, penny pinching scrooge. Half our population doesn't want to tax the uber-riche their fair share so we have to go scrounging for revenue from parking tickets, jaywalking fines, fees and licenses to cover our basic needs. Like better police training. And education and training for our children.
Why is it so ingrained into our culture to punish those who "we" feel don't measure up to "our" standards.
The United States has become a mean spirited, penny pinching scrooge. Half our population doesn't want to tax the uber-riche their fair share so we have to go scrounging for revenue from parking tickets, jaywalking fines, fees and licenses to cover our basic needs. Like better police training. And education and training for our children.
There's no question that the availability of federal funding for higher education has deformed the market in good and bad ways. It's given rise to a plethora of for-profit colleges that graduate students with worthless degrees and huge debt loads. During the recent recession a certain percentage of college enrollees were only there because there seemed to be no other way to manage than to live on borrowed money while in school.
I'm with Brooks on the notion that tuition shouldn't be free for those who can afford it and that the support network in community college needs to take into consideration the nature of the student body. But if we advocate for more support for the neediest students, we also need to advocate for stricter standards both for academic performance and for progress to graduation.
It doesn't take much to get a C in community college and let's get real, if you were putting in a C performance at work you wouldn't last out the probation period. If we agree to lavish more money on the neediest, we need also to hold them to a performance and progress standard that approximates the real world.
You'd also get bounced from a job for postponing the completion of a project, likewise for chopping and changing along the way.
And we should be realistic about the current state of community colleges before we anoint them as the secret to ending all the woes of our society. These benighted institutions are over-enrolled and under-funded, awash with the unprepared.
I'm with Brooks on the notion that tuition shouldn't be free for those who can afford it and that the support network in community college needs to take into consideration the nature of the student body. But if we advocate for more support for the neediest students, we also need to advocate for stricter standards both for academic performance and for progress to graduation.
It doesn't take much to get a C in community college and let's get real, if you were putting in a C performance at work you wouldn't last out the probation period. If we agree to lavish more money on the neediest, we need also to hold them to a performance and progress standard that approximates the real world.
You'd also get bounced from a job for postponing the completion of a project, likewise for chopping and changing along the way.
And we should be realistic about the current state of community colleges before we anoint them as the secret to ending all the woes of our society. These benighted institutions are over-enrolled and under-funded, awash with the unprepared.
2
I've worked many many places, (corp, nonprof and government) where the A game was not only undesirable, but would engender negative relationships from colleagues because working too hard made them look bad.
Yes, let's be realistic that "C" performances are unacceptable in the "Real World". They are often more acceptable than A and B performances.
Yes, let's be realistic that "C" performances are unacceptable in the "Real World". They are often more acceptable than A and B performances.
1
Where to begin deconstructing Brooks's latest flight into intellectual dishonesty? One reason students drop out of 2- and 4-year colleges is the cost of tuition, even the comparatively low costs of community college. Brooks says that instead of tuition, the government should subsidize living expenses (textbooks, housing, transportation and so on); guidance counselors and mentors; remedial education; child care.
Great ideas. But what planet are you living on if you think the Republican Congress would EVER even CONSIDER that? This is a Congress that doesn't even want to support public education, make student loans affordable, or provide poor children with free lunch. Brooks proves once again that he is the most intellectually dishonest commentator writing today.
Great ideas. But what planet are you living on if you think the Republican Congress would EVER even CONSIDER that? This is a Congress that doesn't even want to support public education, make student loans affordable, or provide poor children with free lunch. Brooks proves once again that he is the most intellectually dishonest commentator writing today.
4
Since when did Republicans worry about all the support structures needed by the poor, taken for granted by the well off? Why don't they pull themselves up by their bootstraps (after they've sold off their shoes to pay for bus fare)? Feh, let them eat cake.
3
While I would love to see a community college system that, at a nominal cost, provided books, and daycare, and counseling, and mentoring, and remedial studies to prepare students, etc., I don't expect to see any such thing any time soon. Obama's proposal is too narrow, to small. But even it is unlikely to be adopted.
A proposal that might be to the point, and acceptable to those who claim to want to reward effort is the one I saw in a comment. Let community college students pay for their educations, at least in part, but let all the costs (including, ideally, even such things as books and daycare) be refunded to them upon graduation. You put your money as well as your effort into your education, but if you persevere, you are rewarded. Maybe even with more than you actually put it! We'll pay for half your tuition, but you get a refund of the full tuition on graduation. (Though you'd have to be careful about things like that.) Incentives are good.
But again, Brooks' piece seems another exercise in imagining something perfect, and allowing to get in the way of something merely good. Obama's proposal is good. Adding Brooks' ideas would make it better. This isn't an either/or proposition, folks.
A proposal that might be to the point, and acceptable to those who claim to want to reward effort is the one I saw in a comment. Let community college students pay for their educations, at least in part, but let all the costs (including, ideally, even such things as books and daycare) be refunded to them upon graduation. You put your money as well as your effort into your education, but if you persevere, you are rewarded. Maybe even with more than you actually put it! We'll pay for half your tuition, but you get a refund of the full tuition on graduation. (Though you'd have to be careful about things like that.) Incentives are good.
But again, Brooks' piece seems another exercise in imagining something perfect, and allowing to get in the way of something merely good. Obama's proposal is good. Adding Brooks' ideas would make it better. This isn't an either/or proposition, folks.
3
Why not just rename it "Vocational High School." The whole thing is just political posturing. We have no industry left, so we have no apprenticeships or jobs to be trained for. Where we do, employers are the ones looking for a hand out. Over 50 years ago we had this thing right. Now, the left and the right just spew hot air and watch as we further divide ourselves. We invented "free" education in the world. Trouble is we have not "learned" anything.
1
Mr. Brooks bases this piece on the underlying assumption that making community college free AND providing support services to help people graduate are mutually exclusive. Politically speaking he may be right, but why is this the case? Is the real issue how stuck President Obama is in 1970s liberalism, or in the fact that he needs to tailor the message is such a way to make it so basic that even Republicans have to consider giving money to poorer, less educated, nonwhite people?
While I appreciate Mr. Brooks point, it really serves to reveal the real issue - we live in a country that has a government filled with many representatives who don't want to financially commit to helping America become more educated. And let's face it, one of those members is not President Obama. But the ones who do think this way will use Mr. Brooks argument, not to help these students more, but to shoot down the President's proposal and do nothing at all.
While I appreciate Mr. Brooks point, it really serves to reveal the real issue - we live in a country that has a government filled with many representatives who don't want to financially commit to helping America become more educated. And let's face it, one of those members is not President Obama. But the ones who do think this way will use Mr. Brooks argument, not to help these students more, but to shoot down the President's proposal and do nothing at all.
3
This is smart thinking. Making community college tuition free won't necessarily increase graduation rates. There are other things holding students back -- living costs, lack of preparation, study skills, guidance, and so on.
A friend from Malaysia, who was involved in creating that country's economic miracle, has a helpful analogy. He calls it the "balloon theory of economic development." The idea is that the balloon is held down by many strings. Until you cut them all, the balloon won't fly.
The same principle applies in education. College students are like balloons. Brooks' idea is to find out what is keeping community college students from graduating and then use our resources to help students cut the strings that are holding them down.
A compassionate society that cares about all of its citizens will do this. Providing free tuition is a step in the right direction. But it's not as wise and compassionate as actually listening to students and finding out what their real problems are.
For more thinking along the same lines, I recommend another NYT article from Jan 17: Helping the Poor in Education: The Power of a Simple Nudge. The idea here is that simple text messages sent to willing parents and students can increase behaviors that lead to academic success.
A friend from Malaysia, who was involved in creating that country's economic miracle, has a helpful analogy. He calls it the "balloon theory of economic development." The idea is that the balloon is held down by many strings. Until you cut them all, the balloon won't fly.
The same principle applies in education. College students are like balloons. Brooks' idea is to find out what is keeping community college students from graduating and then use our resources to help students cut the strings that are holding them down.
A compassionate society that cares about all of its citizens will do this. Providing free tuition is a step in the right direction. But it's not as wise and compassionate as actually listening to students and finding out what their real problems are.
For more thinking along the same lines, I recommend another NYT article from Jan 17: Helping the Poor in Education: The Power of a Simple Nudge. The idea here is that simple text messages sent to willing parents and students can increase behaviors that lead to academic success.
1
My community college students spend an inordinate amount of time and effort trying to secure financial aid to offset college costs. They would benefit tremendously from having these barriers removed. Money saved on college costs can be used to offset child care, housing, transportation and other expenses. Also, making community college cost free might attract local HS students and help them earn college credit in advance of enrolling in four-year colleges; would diversify community-college classrooms, and begin to integrate these two seemingly disparate communities (traditional and non traditional college students) in a way that could lead to greater understanding and better policy-making down the line.
4
My purpose for writing today is to question how Mr. Brooks determined that remedial courses may not benefit incoming college students.
Having taught "Developmental English" and "Freshman Orientation" at the community college level for a number of years now, I have first-hand knowledge of the benefits of these courses, and I wonder if Mr. Brooks has spoken to the adjuncts who are teaching these courses. Of course, some students resent taking these courses but I suspect that they are the ones who did not complete the courses; thus, they were unable to start taking college courses for credit and denied themselves access to the benefits of attending and participating in college life.
I admit that most of my students in these courses initially disliked being in courses that on the surface did not immediately lead to graduation. However, as time passed, and they realized that they could not read and write at the college level, and that these courses were giving them the foundations that they needed to be successful at college, they came to appreciate, and in some cases, to enjoy these courses.
Did all of these students stay on and graduate, of course not. Those that graduated probably did because they took remedial courses. Remedial courses are essential stepping stones.
Before these courses are criticized and eliminated, a more complete analysis of their benefits needs to be undertaken.
Having taught "Developmental English" and "Freshman Orientation" at the community college level for a number of years now, I have first-hand knowledge of the benefits of these courses, and I wonder if Mr. Brooks has spoken to the adjuncts who are teaching these courses. Of course, some students resent taking these courses but I suspect that they are the ones who did not complete the courses; thus, they were unable to start taking college courses for credit and denied themselves access to the benefits of attending and participating in college life.
I admit that most of my students in these courses initially disliked being in courses that on the surface did not immediately lead to graduation. However, as time passed, and they realized that they could not read and write at the college level, and that these courses were giving them the foundations that they needed to be successful at college, they came to appreciate, and in some cases, to enjoy these courses.
Did all of these students stay on and graduate, of course not. Those that graduated probably did because they took remedial courses. Remedial courses are essential stepping stones.
Before these courses are criticized and eliminated, a more complete analysis of their benefits needs to be undertaken.
4
#1 Reason why community colleges have higher dropout rates: they accept everyone who applies. Compare with the "acceptance rates" advertised by 4-year colleges.
#1 Reason why community college students succeed: seriousness of purpose. No one attends 2-year schools to "party." Community colleges are focused entirely on learning—no culture of binge drinking or "Greek" life, tolerated at 4-year schools as part of some "socialization" process.
#1 Reason why community college students succeed: seriousness of purpose. No one attends 2-year schools to "party." Community colleges are focused entirely on learning—no culture of binge drinking or "Greek" life, tolerated at 4-year schools as part of some "socialization" process.
5
Dear David,
When Fergie(my intellectual feline) finished your column she stared into space and gave me a chance to finish. Then she posed the question: why not do it all? The goal is to have an educated people, not just acquiring a skill. It will cost more, but it will be a good investment. After all, the present is what we have, with all of its problems. The future is where we find hope for betterment of humankind. Monetary reward will follow naturally from advancement of the collective intellect.
Then she cautioned: don't be in a terrible hurry. Real change will take generations. And don't concentrate on the failures. But treasure each success.
Then, after a long stretch, suggested you run this by Ms Collins.
When Fergie(my intellectual feline) finished your column she stared into space and gave me a chance to finish. Then she posed the question: why not do it all? The goal is to have an educated people, not just acquiring a skill. It will cost more, but it will be a good investment. After all, the present is what we have, with all of its problems. The future is where we find hope for betterment of humankind. Monetary reward will follow naturally from advancement of the collective intellect.
Then she cautioned: don't be in a terrible hurry. Real change will take generations. And don't concentrate on the failures. But treasure each success.
Then, after a long stretch, suggested you run this by Ms Collins.
2
David is both right and wrong. Students do need support services and faculty who will work with them to help to remediate 20 year old algebra, etc. But David is wrong to be such a reductive thinker to suggest that tuition is a bagatelle for these students. When you're earning $10 an hour, every penny counts, and in that economy, any assistance is welcome.
5
Getting poor or lower middle class kids through community college is a complicated maze. First, the students must have a free place to live. Frequently, their parents are unable or unwilling to provide this. Second, they need transportation. To take care of housing and transportation they need jobs. A part time, minimum wage job may not be enough. These employers are generally not very helpful with scheduling, not interested in providing reliable hours around a school schedule. A reliable auto is an expensive proposition and, with tight work and class schedules, long commutes don't work. Many community colleges in northeast Ohio have limited or no public bus lines. No wonder unsophisticated kids have trouble working through this maze and graduating. They become overwhelmed and fail or drop out. If they're lucky, they haven't racked up debt. Vicious circle.
2
Once again, some additional data would have been useful. Our k-12 system is failing low income students. 65% of low income students arrive at community college and 32% of low income students arrive at 4 year colleges and need remedial classes because of inadequate preparation in k-12. Further, what about the standards of admission at any public 2 or 4 year colleges? Data shows that requiring higher admission standards results in higher graduation rates and I agree that offering it to everyone won't increase graduation rates. The problem with the Brooks solution is state legislatures (primarily Republican) that are cutting funding for guidance counselors, child care, remedial education, k-12 education and support for the public university and college systems and increasing tuition and fees, while opposing any set of minimum standards for their k-12 system including common core. Brooks is urging solutions diametrically opposed by Republicans. I doubt very much that Republicans will do any of these things being proposed by Mr. Brooks. In the final analysis, it won't matter. No matter what the president proposes, the Republican Senate and House will oppose it which makes this discussion moot.
33
I always bristle when people say things like "Our k-12 system is failing low income students." It'd be more accurate to say that our K-12 system, while it does a lot of good by providing opportunity to low-income students, is not by itself sufficient to totally overcome the effects of poverty.
Low-income students who show up to school, behave, and do the work aren't failed. They get a good education. Because of factors outside the schools' control, too few of them do that.
Low-income students who show up to school, behave, and do the work aren't failed. They get a good education. Because of factors outside the schools' control, too few of them do that.
1
Opposition by the Republican Senate and House may defeat what President Obama proposes (absent some horse-trading), but that does not mean that it "makes this discussion moot", Tom.
Democrats need to include the long view in their thinking. The right wing of the Republican Party needs to pay a political price for killing what some traditional Republicans, as well as many corporate leaders, know is a good idea.
Democrats need to include the long view in their thinking. The right wing of the Republican Party needs to pay a political price for killing what some traditional Republicans, as well as many corporate leaders, know is a good idea.
Eric, I agree that even a good school may not overcome all effects of poverty, but the school system in poorer districts is often not as good as wealthier districts. Even in better districts, k-12 is failing to adequately prepare students for college or post secondary education and poorer districts are even worse. I know, I was one of those low income students (bottom 20%) but was lucky enough to live within a wealthier district.
Allowing for Mr. Brooks ideas to be considered in addition to the Presidents desire for subsidizing community college, does one really think that the republican party would ever be in favor of a more educated populace.
38
Absolutely! Since when does any republican think it of any consequence to have low or middle income kids educated? You don't need much education to keep fancy yards up and do domestic work for the elites.
2
I am in favor of a more educated populace. I am not in favor of federal-level efforts to make it so.
David Brooks is right that tuition at community colleges is not the main problem students attending such colleges face. What is needed is investing in those students and providing incentives for them to finish their studies and graduate having acquired knowledge that will help them become productive members of society. When that happens is not only the students that benefit but society as a whole. Unfortunately, that is not how the constipated GOP members of Congress see it. They see any money spent on people who cannot afford to go to college as a freebie for the undeserving poor, who should be able to afford bootstraps to lift themselves out of poverty. What Obama proposes has a slim chance of actually happening, what Brooks is asking has no chance in hell. He should be addressing his party (if it is still his party), not the readers of the New York Times, on this subject.
26
Hey, here's an idea. Let's buy a few less fighter planes. Then, let's _both_ fund student tuition directly _and_ fund the student's supporting "ecosystem."
We need to de-emphasize hardware and invest in people.
We need to de-emphasize hardware and invest in people.
51
As Woody Allen observed 90% of success is just showing up. Of course there are problems with achieving graduation rates but these are common to all institutions of higher education. Brooks, who has spent his entire career as a relentless advocate for the neo liberal economic policies that account for much of the huge increase in inequality and decline in social mobility that has occurred in US society over the last 35 years, adopts the usual conservative tactic of damning a not perfect but broadly sensible initiative by raising a host of amorphous wider societal and practical problems that impact education. It belongs with all those other specious conservative critiques one can think of like we can't expand healthcare coverage because there aren't enough doctors.
39
Why not do what most first world countries do? Provide free college tuition at state schools for anyone who qualifies? Then the focus for the student, instructors, and administrators can all be on educating the students. You know, like we used to do in California until 1966, when Ronald Reagan became governor and instituted a tuition plan to the state university system. Before that, tuition in the finest public university system in the world was zero. It was free to California residents. It powered the California industrial and technology revolution of the last third of the 20th century. Why not try something that isn't profit driven and everyone benefits from? Something proven to work in every progressive country in the world, except one.
13
To do that we would have to raise taxes to cover the cost. Those increases would come from everyone, not just the successful.
Yes. Or maybe just cut subsidies to the Oil industry (5.5B) or cut defense spending by 5% (30B) or any number of other sops to the 1%. For the benefit of everyone.
How would Obama’s free community college proposal affect American jobs and careers? That’s at http://worksnewage.blogspot.com/2015/01/obamas-community-college-proposa....
Republicans will oppose any suggestion to help educate the less fortunate in our society simply because an educated minority will become an educated voter. This wouldn't fit into their mold of misinformation to win elections.
15
What a hoot. Spend enough time at a predominately Democrat poll as I have as a Precinct Judge and you'll see who the misinformed and particularly uninformed voters are. Most come in totally unaware of who the candidates are and are even more uninformed about the bond issues. And last year was the worst. We no longer allow straight ticket voting and everything slowed down as they stood there confused because they had no idea who to vote for. The statistics showed the top one or two candidates getting votes with blanks the rest of the way down including the bond issues. There's a reason why we've always called Democrats the uninformed voters.
Actually, Huguenot, there ISN'T a reason that YOU call Democrats the uninformed voters - that is just your misinformed opinion. If you were paying attention as a precinct judge, you would know that straight ticket voters (much more often Republicans than Democrats) are the uninformed. There is nothing wrong with taking time to read the ballot and make sure you know who to cast a vote for, you've just misinterpreted that as uninformed.
And once these new students figure out all these grants, loans and blessings of a new liberal (lol) congress and venture forth to class, they'll encounter faculty 80% of whom are poorly paid adjuncts. I just quit a teaching job at a Detroit area community college that paid me $2100 a class, and I have 25 years teaching experience. It wasn't even worth getting out of bed to go to class. What qualified instructor would find that to be adequate pay for a college class? And those who do, do we really want them to be teaching in the first place when better money can be gleaned at places like Starbucks and The Gap? Even when the money can be sorted out at the student level, the money must be sorted out at the faculty level as well or the only folks getting anything out of community college will continue to be the administrators.
10
I assume you were not teaching economics - if enough folks felt the same way you did - the rates would go up - as it is now - more qualified people with their shiny second-rate masters and PhDs than there are opportunities apply every year at my university to "adjunct".
1
They do. I did. I certainly could cobble together -maybe- 25K/year teaching adjunct...with no health insurance, no job security, no advisees, and no skin in the game. I'm over 40, that's just not good enough.
If we were to graph average human capability from least to most we'd see the bell curve. It's literally shaped like a bell and it basically shows that most people are average. As the graph heads towards the most capable end, the numbers slump off towards zero. As we go towards the least capable end of the graph the numbers approach zero. Of course, the most capable are just comparatively (compared to everyone else) more capable and the least capable comparatively less capable. So logically, there isn't a way to every level the playing field.
We can optimize our human capital policy towards the people who are the best and brightest and it's likely the least capable will suffer. I believe that the quality of a society is determined by both it's ability to encourage the most capable while giving the least capable a decent life. While I think that higher education should be freely available to everyone who can use it, I don't think that is sufficient. It won't make all our problems go away. It is necessary, but not sufficient.
We can optimize our human capital policy towards the people who are the best and brightest and it's likely the least capable will suffer. I believe that the quality of a society is determined by both it's ability to encourage the most capable while giving the least capable a decent life. While I think that higher education should be freely available to everyone who can use it, I don't think that is sufficient. It won't make all our problems go away. It is necessary, but not sufficient.
4
Since children don't start with the same resources and provileges, your post is silly nonsense.
1
You could solve a lot of these problems by inviting more in public schools. Providing "living expenses" for community college students while cutting SNAP makes no sense. Providing funds for more counselors at the community college while retaining unacceptably high student-to-counselor ratios at high schools makes no sense. Providing funds for remedial education in community college while spending billions on bubble tests makes no sense. Providing child care costs for community college students while cutting back on "welfare" for parents of school-aged children makes no sense. What DOES make sense is providing more money to "strengthen the structures" around Pre-K through grade 12. Unfortunately the people who would benefit most from this spending-- the children in those grade levels-- are not eligible to vote. Even more unfortunate is the fact that their parents are not major campaign contributors so their voices are not heard.
3
Instead of giving students allowances to cover 'living expenses,' it would make sense to just expand SNAP and Medicaid to cover students, instead of automatically excluding anyone over 18 who is enrolled in school.
Why are those people who are doing the most to improve their futures, barred from support which could make that easier to do?
Why are those people who are doing the most to improve their futures, barred from support which could make that easier to do?
2
Textbooks certainly are expensive, Mr. Brooks. It was your man Ronald Reagan who deregulated the publishing industry during his presidency, allowing those costs to skyrocket. It was Reagan too who made teaching and research assistantships taxable income rather than scholarships.
27
"Half of all community-college students arrive unprepared for college work."
Fix this first before you reach into my pocket again ... and again ... and again.
Fix this first before you reach into my pocket again ... and again ... and again.
11
Indeed the problem is in the K-12 programs. Why are colleges teaching Remedial Reading and Math to freshmen classes?
This is a damning statement and situation, a scathing inditement of our endless and largely muddled efforts to reform American’s education system at virtually every level.
Much of this effort seems to be a litany of shotgun blasts to address myriad problems but does not comprehensively solve the issue of getting the most important component of our national future, our children, all our children, in the best possible posture to promote broad personal and collective prosperity and informed and engaged citizenship.
Failing in this regard has huge economic and social impacts that we all pay dearly for from cradle to grave. Total costs both fiscally and as wasted human potential and discarded individual opportunity have to be absolutely astronomical.
Time to seriously put our nations future and the most elemental aspects of our national security at the top of the national agenda.
Much of this effort seems to be a litany of shotgun blasts to address myriad problems but does not comprehensively solve the issue of getting the most important component of our national future, our children, all our children, in the best possible posture to promote broad personal and collective prosperity and informed and engaged citizenship.
Failing in this regard has huge economic and social impacts that we all pay dearly for from cradle to grave. Total costs both fiscally and as wasted human potential and discarded individual opportunity have to be absolutely astronomical.
Time to seriously put our nations future and the most elemental aspects of our national security at the top of the national agenda.
To fix that, you need to dip into your pocket a bit more.
1
In the 1930s, the New Deal created jobs, and GOP lawmakers scrapped those "make work" programs in favor of cheaper and easier welfare programs, with known results.
What would Congress do with Mr Brooks' program? They would applaud it as providing a rationale for scrapping Obama's proposal, and stop right there. They would not subsidize child care at CCs, they would not finance additional remediation, or increase the number of counselors at CCs. Those parts they would just brand as more "welfare."
They would point gleefully at the proposal as largely "a subsidy for middle- and upper-middle class students" (got to get that "upper-" in there) who don't need any help (really?).
"In the first place, community college is already free for most poor and working-class students who qualify for Pell grants and other aid. In 2012, 38 percent of community-college students had their tuition covered entirely by grant aid and an additional 33 percent had fees of less than $1,000."
And as far as the 29% who got no aid and whose fees were more than $1000 a term? All the above last sentence says is that we are already closer to Obama's goal of free tuition than most people imagine. And if the money could come from a source independent of the Pell system, then maybe more Pell money would be available for others, too.
Brooks is right: books, and daycare, and mentoring, etc., are ALSO needed. But this isn't an either/or proposition.
Don't scrap, expand.
What would Congress do with Mr Brooks' program? They would applaud it as providing a rationale for scrapping Obama's proposal, and stop right there. They would not subsidize child care at CCs, they would not finance additional remediation, or increase the number of counselors at CCs. Those parts they would just brand as more "welfare."
They would point gleefully at the proposal as largely "a subsidy for middle- and upper-middle class students" (got to get that "upper-" in there) who don't need any help (really?).
"In the first place, community college is already free for most poor and working-class students who qualify for Pell grants and other aid. In 2012, 38 percent of community-college students had their tuition covered entirely by grant aid and an additional 33 percent had fees of less than $1,000."
And as far as the 29% who got no aid and whose fees were more than $1000 a term? All the above last sentence says is that we are already closer to Obama's goal of free tuition than most people imagine. And if the money could come from a source independent of the Pell system, then maybe more Pell money would be available for others, too.
Brooks is right: books, and daycare, and mentoring, etc., are ALSO needed. But this isn't an either/or proposition.
Don't scrap, expand.
17
The free program that "surged" in Tennessee -- what was its dropout rate?
"Community college drop out rates now hover somewhere between 66 percent and 80 percent."
This is a really horrible figure and doesn't speak well of our students, but more so, our community colleges. What is included in this figure? I know at the nearby school, guys from the local factory pop in for a computer class (I believe the college works with the factory in job training) --- are these men part of the dropout rate? What is the dropout rate among adults age 17-24?
And, how would the $60 billion be spent? Would it be given directly to the students who attend? And taken away if the grades aren't met? Or, and this is my assumption, the government will just fund our community colleges? With or without students?
Can I ask for something that might help --- can we please waive/drop the student fees for commuting non-traditional students? I was once a non-traditional student commuting without any aid, and because of other commitments I could only take a class or two, but every semester they charged me $542 in student fees for things I didn't use. It made my husband so mad, as well as myself, and I finally gave it up. I'm a drop-out, David and Gail! (Only have a two-year degree and the NYTimes!)
"Community college drop out rates now hover somewhere between 66 percent and 80 percent."
This is a really horrible figure and doesn't speak well of our students, but more so, our community colleges. What is included in this figure? I know at the nearby school, guys from the local factory pop in for a computer class (I believe the college works with the factory in job training) --- are these men part of the dropout rate? What is the dropout rate among adults age 17-24?
And, how would the $60 billion be spent? Would it be given directly to the students who attend? And taken away if the grades aren't met? Or, and this is my assumption, the government will just fund our community colleges? With or without students?
Can I ask for something that might help --- can we please waive/drop the student fees for commuting non-traditional students? I was once a non-traditional student commuting without any aid, and because of other commitments I could only take a class or two, but every semester they charged me $542 in student fees for things I didn't use. It made my husband so mad, as well as myself, and I finally gave it up. I'm a drop-out, David and Gail! (Only have a two-year degree and the NYTimes!)
12
Perhaps we could focus on not running colleges like businesses, where the majority of funds go to pay administrators and the majority of teachers are kept at part-time status in order to alleviate the need to pay fair wages and alleviate the need to pay for healthcare for those teachers. When an English department has 10 full-time teachers and 30 part-time teachers, one has to wonder how well the part-time teachers, who sometimes work three and four job, are able to provide the support the students need so the students don't drop out.
38
Certainly all of that is important, but none of it possible unless you get them there first
10
Nice bait and switch.
"In short, you wouldn’t write government checks for tuition. You’d strengthen structures around the schools." That second sentence could be written: "You would write government checks for social services for those that can't afford them." Paul Ryan and the Republican Congress are going to propose that program on the second Tuesday after never.
"In short, you wouldn’t write government checks for tuition. You’d strengthen structures around the schools." That second sentence could be written: "You would write government checks for social services for those that can't afford them." Paul Ryan and the Republican Congress are going to propose that program on the second Tuesday after never.
33
Around two-thirds to three-quarters of all community college classes are taught by part-time/adjunct faculty members who earn about $2000-$3000 a class. Even teaching ten classes a year at multiple colleges, these people can earn only $20,000 to $30,000 a year. The New York Times has featured stories about adjuncts on food stamps, adjuncts who live in their cars, and adjuncts who cannot support their families despite their masters or Ph.D degrees and their teaching skills and experience.
If this is how their teachers are treated by society, how do you think society treats community students? Like garbage. David Brooks well knows that nothing is going to change. We need a revolution.
If this is how their teachers are treated by society, how do you think society treats community students? Like garbage. David Brooks well knows that nothing is going to change. We need a revolution.
42
Sure - here is a revolution - we need more CC instructors with tenure - that way they can be paid $100K-plus per annum and teach an average of 3.0 courses... and have summers off.
Wait - that isn't a revolution - that is business as normal at a university.
Wait - that isn't a revolution - that is business as normal at a university.
Let’s face it, Barack Obama is a smart and decent man, but he spent six years demonstrating that he is not intuitively political, unlike Bill Clinton. One of the encouraging aspects of how President Obama has reacted to the debacle of last November is his newly discovered willingness to get in the face of the opposition. This is no time to allow pessimism to rule, Richard Grayson, by declaring defeat before we take our shot.
What Brooks and Obama are missing is that college is too late in the game to make meaningful changes. Many students are simply graduating high school without mastering the basics. Efforts at remediation should focus on the K-12 level not college.
Also for the love of God everyone doesn't need to go to college. This country did just fine when the vast majority of its citizens had a high school diploma and less.
Also for the love of God everyone doesn't need to go to college. This country did just fine when the vast majority of its citizens had a high school diploma and less.
57
When this country had millions of jobs for low and unskilled workers, you mean? Factories were thriving in the 50s making everything from toys to Polaroid cameras. Those jobs continue to be done by those who might never have graduated from high school - in China, VietNam and other emerging economies with large numbers of low wage workers. Where do you propose these uneducated people find work?
1
I haven't looked too closely at Obama's proposal, but I think he talked to only about community colleges, but also about trade schools. I definitely agree that we need to increase the number of people with technical skills. On the other hand, there is a trap in looking at the job situation in the 50s, 60s and 70s and comparing our job situation now. The US no longer has the wealth of manufacturing jobs that we had then. So we need to figure out how to educate people to deal with the job situation we do have.
Still, even though I am a college professor (or maybe because I am a college professor) I agree with you that college isn't for everyone.
Still, even though I am a college professor (or maybe because I am a college professor) I agree with you that college isn't for everyone.
Actually, the remediation should begin with the parents of the children, then from infancy throughout life. For many demographic groups, it MUST start at birth of the newborn.
1
I nearly ran over this guy in Exeter NH a few years ago, when he stepped into the street in front of my car. Doubtless he was visiting a child at Phillips Exeter Academy, one of the three most elite prep schools in the country. We need fewer prep schools (I graduated from one of the best, btw) better public schools and free higher education. Otherwise we will fall behind our competitors, who have "socialized" higher education and health care. What we have now is not working in the global market--we cannot build a durable civilization on a purely privatized military foundation.
3
Not sure why we are having this discussion. There is ZERO chance of this suggestion becoming law with a Republican Congress. Obama suggested it. Right, Mitch McConnell?
11
As has been commented on before, just getting into college is not enough to allow people the finances needed to stay there. We need to do both, however I take exception to the following quote:
"In 2012, 38 percent of community-college students had their tuition covered entirely by grant aid and an additional 33 percent had fees of less than $1,000."
This quote was used to illustrate why people don't need tuition help. I am from a middle income family, not upper, probably headed towards lower, I can tell you that if you don't have an extra 1,000 dollars, for college, car repairs, doctor's visits, etc. it might as well be the moon. No matter how inexpensive something is or how good a deal it is, if you haven't got it, you can't pay it.
So to those people who are lower on the economic scale, free is a powerful word, except that after that, you get hit with all the expenses mentioned, books, food, transportation, child care, in that case, free might as well be the moon.
Economics created the classes that need help, economics could lift them, just like it could improve infrastructure and strengthen many popular issues but Congress has no interest in the general good.
"In 2012, 38 percent of community-college students had their tuition covered entirely by grant aid and an additional 33 percent had fees of less than $1,000."
This quote was used to illustrate why people don't need tuition help. I am from a middle income family, not upper, probably headed towards lower, I can tell you that if you don't have an extra 1,000 dollars, for college, car repairs, doctor's visits, etc. it might as well be the moon. No matter how inexpensive something is or how good a deal it is, if you haven't got it, you can't pay it.
So to those people who are lower on the economic scale, free is a powerful word, except that after that, you get hit with all the expenses mentioned, books, food, transportation, child care, in that case, free might as well be the moon.
Economics created the classes that need help, economics could lift them, just like it could improve infrastructure and strengthen many popular issues but Congress has no interest in the general good.
11
>
I have no problem with Obamas's proposal. It cannot hurt. Maybe they can take some philosophy courses where they can be trained to critically think.
However, I do not buy for one second the myth that an uneducated populace is the causal phenomena as to our poor job growth. The jobs left this country for cheap labor, no regulations, etc...not to find educated people. Moreover when American industrialists are looking for educated people, they want more visas to bring in educated people from other countries that will work for much less money than an engineer, say, coming out of MIT etc..
I have no problem with Obamas's proposal. It cannot hurt. Maybe they can take some philosophy courses where they can be trained to critically think.
However, I do not buy for one second the myth that an uneducated populace is the causal phenomena as to our poor job growth. The jobs left this country for cheap labor, no regulations, etc...not to find educated people. Moreover when American industrialists are looking for educated people, they want more visas to bring in educated people from other countries that will work for much less money than an engineer, say, coming out of MIT etc..
12
MIT engineering grads don't have any problem finding high salary jobs (nor do the grads from any other engineering school in this country, for that matter). People are being imported for lower salary engineering jobs because there aren't sufficient numbers of graduates from engineering tech type programs (2 year and 4 year). That said, I don't see free tuition as the solution. Even the engineering tech programs have very rigorous math and science requirements. For the vast majority of people who would be impacted by the free tuition proposal, a C average in these programs is more difficult to attain than an A in the social sciences.
Per the author's comments, we need to be smarter about how we attack this problem. Part of what needs to be done is to encourage people to work to earn degrees in science & technology areas. Free tuition, for related courses, regardless of grades is a very good start.
Per the author's comments, we need to be smarter about how we attack this problem. Part of what needs to be done is to encourage people to work to earn degrees in science & technology areas. Free tuition, for related courses, regardless of grades is a very good start.
>
Bob,
I think my general theorem is correct.
Bob,
I think my general theorem is correct.
I believe that college should be free for all people who have the aptitude or a real desire to study.
That said, I also believe that college is not for everyone, nor does our economy need everyone to have a college degree. Moreover, a very high percentage of people hate learning, they hate being in school, and they will fail if they attend (unless standards are watered down). Pushing everyone through college also leads to credential creep and the devaluing of a college degree, especially when unemployment is high. What we need is a jobs program, not a band-aide of free community college.
That said, I also believe that college is not for everyone, nor does our economy need everyone to have a college degree. Moreover, a very high percentage of people hate learning, they hate being in school, and they will fail if they attend (unless standards are watered down). Pushing everyone through college also leads to credential creep and the devaluing of a college degree, especially when unemployment is high. What we need is a jobs program, not a band-aide of free community college.
7
The purpose of 'community college' has also been subject to definition creep. Depending on the school, a community college may offer, in addition to college courses for those planning to transfer to a traditional four-year school, trade school training (e.g., medical technician), professional continuing education (e.g., nursing), remedial courses (ESL, GED), adult recreation (fencing, hobbies) ... you name it. The community college is the educational equivalent of Al Capp's shmoo, which could produce anything your little heart desired -- as Capp said, if it really likes you, it'll lay a cheesecake, though this is quite a strain on its little innards. Or of those gadgets that perform multiple functions, none of them particularly well.
In order for the college to fulfill its purpose, some agreement must be reached on what its purpose is. And that conclusion should not be 'to do what our high schools were expected to do and don't. Employers are already using the college degree as the guarantee of basic literarcy that the high school diploma used to be. Eventually you'll need a PhD to flip burgers (but everyone will have a Scarecrow Degree from Oz University and be full of self-esteem).
In order for the college to fulfill its purpose, some agreement must be reached on what its purpose is. And that conclusion should not be 'to do what our high schools were expected to do and don't. Employers are already using the college degree as the guarantee of basic literarcy that the high school diploma used to be. Eventually you'll need a PhD to flip burgers (but everyone will have a Scarecrow Degree from Oz University and be full of self-esteem).
1
It is 2015 and what is needed is the recognition is what is needed is a new economic system. We are drowning in stuff. We produce too much, we already consume too much food and are over sheltered, We need a guaranteed annual income as proposed by Richard Nixon. People should be allowed to stay in school forever. For many of us school is already worse than prison and we would be happy spending our time growing tomatoes and building houses and with today's technology there would still be more than enough for everybody.
2
ACW,
Self esteem does not come from a piece of paper, if that was the case our elite would not all need the services of psychological and psychiatric counseling. Our .1% would not need to own 50% of the world and control 100% of its resources. We need to affirm the value of each and everyone and the way to do that is with things like a guaranteed annual income which says we are happy to have you here.
Self esteem does not come from a piece of paper, if that was the case our elite would not all need the services of psychological and psychiatric counseling. Our .1% would not need to own 50% of the world and control 100% of its resources. We need to affirm the value of each and everyone and the way to do that is with things like a guaranteed annual income which says we are happy to have you here.
1
Brooks is right on.
Those below who, in a caricature of a classic theft mentality, speak of spending even more of other peoples' money to fund useless plans, should seriously rethink their lives.
Those below who, in a caricature of a classic theft mentality, speak of spending even more of other peoples' money to fund useless plans, should seriously rethink their lives.
I find it odd that what you cite as problems here that should be addressed for students you could not care less about for people who have jobs. It's particularly ironic because in the case of young people, they are one and the same.
I also note you cite these problems to say no to tuition free community colleges, but are silent on actually doing something about the problems you obviously know burden these students. In effect you are saying to them, why bother thinking about school.
I also note you cite these problems to say no to tuition free community colleges, but are silent on actually doing something about the problems you obviously know burden these students. In effect you are saying to them, why bother thinking about school.
3
It looks like the DNC wonks are out in full force. Everyone wants everything free, but someone has to pay. Oh...I forgot...it's 'everyone else', except 'everyone else' is us, the working who had to pay and actually graduate from college. You political party lovers are disgusting. You don't even know the issues, you just want your 'team' to win. I got news for you. Your team, Repub or Dem, are a bunch of ignorant crooks. You're nothing to them but a way to keep a long term job. They promise you anything, and then make you pay for it my jacking up your taxes, which they'll skim some off of to pay for their next raise. Look at their salaries and see how much they care about you. Two years and full federal retirement...you're being played. Get rid of political parties and make congress and the president accountable to all Americans.
Mr. Brooks acts as though we don't have the money available to do all of the things he suggests as well as implement the President's plan. We do. It's just that it is all going to unneeded corporate welfare and to provide tax breaks and subsidies for the 0.1% who own our government. And as a conservative, of course, Mr. Brooks sees nothing strange about that.
But don't worry – Mr. Obama's proposal will meet with stiff resistance in this Congress as the Republicans' greatest fear is, rightly, an educated public capable of critical thinking.
But don't worry – Mr. Obama's proposal will meet with stiff resistance in this Congress as the Republicans' greatest fear is, rightly, an educated public capable of critical thinking.
7
Dear Mr. Brooks,
Why not the whole deal? Why not free tuition and the money necessary to improve, if you will, the community college's infrastructure helping students not only attend college but graduate with a degree?
For the cost of several F-35 fighters, the concepts of both plans could be put in place. I mention the F-35 because the Air Force doesn't seem to have enough "technicians" to keep both that aircraft and the A-10 flying, illustrating the need for "educated" people to service the needs of both machines (The current idea involves "scrapping" the A-10 an idea that assumes it won't be needed to fend off Warsaw Pact hordes. Then along came Putin.).
So, where does the GOP/TP stand on this issue? I am guessing that if Mr. Obama proposes, Mr. Boehner and his crew automatically dispose of the idea; he is their "enemy", in case this hasn't occurred to you, and co-operating with "the enemy" will just annoy the people who control both parties purse strings. Indeed, subsidies for ANYTHING but corporations and industries seems impossible for the so called "Conservatives" we are blessed with currently (You DO remember fiscal cliffs, sequester and government shutdowns passing for "governing" these last few years, do you not?).
In any event, I do not expect this Congress to do much more and certainly to never co-operate with a Democratic president; the GOP/TP got it's 36% "mandate" and will act accordingly.
Why not the whole deal? Why not free tuition and the money necessary to improve, if you will, the community college's infrastructure helping students not only attend college but graduate with a degree?
For the cost of several F-35 fighters, the concepts of both plans could be put in place. I mention the F-35 because the Air Force doesn't seem to have enough "technicians" to keep both that aircraft and the A-10 flying, illustrating the need for "educated" people to service the needs of both machines (The current idea involves "scrapping" the A-10 an idea that assumes it won't be needed to fend off Warsaw Pact hordes. Then along came Putin.).
So, where does the GOP/TP stand on this issue? I am guessing that if Mr. Obama proposes, Mr. Boehner and his crew automatically dispose of the idea; he is their "enemy", in case this hasn't occurred to you, and co-operating with "the enemy" will just annoy the people who control both parties purse strings. Indeed, subsidies for ANYTHING but corporations and industries seems impossible for the so called "Conservatives" we are blessed with currently (You DO remember fiscal cliffs, sequester and government shutdowns passing for "governing" these last few years, do you not?).
In any event, I do not expect this Congress to do much more and certainly to never co-operate with a Democratic president; the GOP/TP got it's 36% "mandate" and will act accordingly.
8
The aircraft industry estimates it will need 500,000 new workers over the next 10 years. Where will they get them if we don't train people for them? More work needs to be done with cooperative programs with private industry. Most will reimburse students for classes and/or provide a job to reinforce the training or compensate for the expenditures.
I've taught in a community college for almost thirty years. Mr. Brooks is right on target.
3
Yes, award government sponsored tuition. It will free up more Pell Grants for other deserving students.
Community Colleges exist because public high schools graduate students with major holes in their academic training. Instead of legitimizing Community Colleges which enable, rather than enhance the academic rigor of the high school, why not add Associates Degrees to the high school structure? Reduce class sizes, bring in more teachers with PhDs and retired business executives?
Community college is 13th and 14th grade. That's all. High school standards in sheepskin clothing. Prepare students for the high standards of the University, before they get older, don't enable them with poor high schools and then subsidize their two year "catch-up" degree. The government shouldn't be enabling its youth: let the business community who will be using them as laborers pick up the tab.
Community college is 13th and 14th grade. That's all. High school standards in sheepskin clothing. Prepare students for the high standards of the University, before they get older, don't enable them with poor high schools and then subsidize their two year "catch-up" degree. The government shouldn't be enabling its youth: let the business community who will be using them as laborers pick up the tab.
21
you could not be more wrong. At least in CA community colleges are seen as the academic partners of UC and our state college system: a stepping stone for those not quite ready for 4-year college: emotional immaturity, lack of funding, the need to care for family members, the desire or need to work part-time, a simple plan to get the basics done in a less stressful environment, a commitment to working in the family business-- you see-- plenty of good reasons. Further, community college is seen as a great path for those not wanting to attend 4-year schools: technical training, jobs in the healthcare field, public works employment, plenty of office type jobs. I agree on one of your points: "let business pick up the tab." But we now have over 30 years of knowing they will not do this. That ended in the early 80s and it is NEVER coming back.
Having seen second career new teachers fall flat in the classroom, I can tell you that it is NOT subject knowledge. Rather, it is the ability to actually teach. Same for a PhD. As far as enabling students who did poorly in HS - remember that a large number of the community college students are non-traditional students. How is YOUR knowledge of Biology these days? Geometry? Can ya still solve a quadratic equation? Individuals legitimately grow and change and strive for new and different goals throughout life. Community colleges offer a pathway not offered by The University.
It is a common troupe that community colleges are catch up degrees. I have an adult son with excellent high school grades, high SAT and ACT scores, and excellent grades both in the university and now in community college. As it turns out, the morass one goes through to get through a university if you transfer there from another is a no win labyrinth of extra classes and requirements to transfer into the college you need. A money pit of ever changing class requirements.
By now finishing two semesters at a community college, all the red tape to return to the university college he desired will be removed. Straight reciprocity. $1500 less semester bill too. Academia for anyone other than freshman who come straight in and do what they are told is an endless way to spend your hard earned dollars. Community colleges give adults and good students a mechanism to transfer into a university with a clear path to graduation. You can try out a technical field before spending thousands to find out you need to change majors and spend even more money.
By now finishing two semesters at a community college, all the red tape to return to the university college he desired will be removed. Straight reciprocity. $1500 less semester bill too. Academia for anyone other than freshman who come straight in and do what they are told is an endless way to spend your hard earned dollars. Community colleges give adults and good students a mechanism to transfer into a university with a clear path to graduation. You can try out a technical field before spending thousands to find out you need to change majors and spend even more money.
I taught in a community college for three years. With all due respect, Mr Brooks has no idea what he's talking about.
My students were all from the inner city and many were first generation college students. They had come to the school against all odds. Many were exceptionally driven--far more driven, I might add, than many of the wealthy students I would later tutor, whose parents pushed and prodded them toward every conceivable goal large and small.
My students *certainly* dropped out due to no money. One of my students lived in a car with her two small children b/c she had left her abusive husband. She was living in a car *so that* she could afford going to CC. Another student could barely afford the bus ride to get to school. Many students - all students - were holding full time jobs in addition to coming to school.
Does Mr. Brooks understand that a) Pell Grants do not cover the full cost of attendance & b) that people have to live while they're going to school, & pay for food, housing, transportation?
Why is he asserting something that is patently untrue? Well, I think many can answer that.
Here's a layer of additional irony: this essay would score a C or lower if I were grading by the Common Core. It lacks supporting data & its thesis is unfounded & ultimately untrue. But Common Core is a classic 'do as I say' initiative.
This essay is not even that. It's not really saying anything except, 'No. Because Obama wants to.'
My students were all from the inner city and many were first generation college students. They had come to the school against all odds. Many were exceptionally driven--far more driven, I might add, than many of the wealthy students I would later tutor, whose parents pushed and prodded them toward every conceivable goal large and small.
My students *certainly* dropped out due to no money. One of my students lived in a car with her two small children b/c she had left her abusive husband. She was living in a car *so that* she could afford going to CC. Another student could barely afford the bus ride to get to school. Many students - all students - were holding full time jobs in addition to coming to school.
Does Mr. Brooks understand that a) Pell Grants do not cover the full cost of attendance & b) that people have to live while they're going to school, & pay for food, housing, transportation?
Why is he asserting something that is patently untrue? Well, I think many can answer that.
Here's a layer of additional irony: this essay would score a C or lower if I were grading by the Common Core. It lacks supporting data & its thesis is unfounded & ultimately untrue. But Common Core is a classic 'do as I say' initiative.
This essay is not even that. It's not really saying anything except, 'No. Because Obama wants to.'
247
So well said.
The present Congress is unlikely to pay much attention to any proposal so Brooks is on solid ground only to the extent that he urges that this idea go nowhere.
1
I've been teaching and grading for 30 years, DCL, and you have hit the nail on the head.
Sometimes I feel "Rip van Winkle-ish"..........Community Colleges, at one time called "Junior Colleges", have been around for a very long time - I graduated from one in 1950. A plan such as the President's should have been done, or at least attempted, long ago. Unfortunately, a wonderful opportunity such as this does not a graduate make. I have no solution for that.....
1
"Figure out the remedial education mess" is the best of the ideas presented here. It will likely lead to the hugely overdue realization that an ounce of prevention (better education in primary and high schools) is worth a pound, or at least much more than an ounce, of cure (more money at the university level). Astronomically high tuition IS a problem, but less at community colleges than at four-year institutions.
2
When a Republicans thinks they actually --"tink" instead. If I say up you reply down. When someone suggest that trying matters you say failure is assured. The party of No. NO. All hail the 1% and long "lived" the American Dream (forever rest in peace).
2
"Half of all community-college students arrive unprepared for college work."
Doesn't that mean we need to put more effort into K-12 education? Six weeks of summer school will not make up for years of neglect in primary school. A nation's most valuable resources are the people, all of them. Education is not a privilige or a luxury; it is absolutely essential for an economy and a democracy to flourish. Education, real education, should be the number one priority in every level of government. If we properly take care of that, all the other things will follow.
Doesn't that mean we need to put more effort into K-12 education? Six weeks of summer school will not make up for years of neglect in primary school. A nation's most valuable resources are the people, all of them. Education is not a privilige or a luxury; it is absolutely essential for an economy and a democracy to flourish. Education, real education, should be the number one priority in every level of government. If we properly take care of that, all the other things will follow.
6
David has some good ideas.....that are not being proposed or supported by Republicans. Government support for childcare is a great idea....whose funding supporting that?
David also has many false equivalences. Providing free Community College to students with good grades is not the same as providing Pell grants to poor students. Obama's plan is to provide free Community College to those who can succeed and protect them from being impoverished by attending college. Brooks claims that middle class kids will be advantaged and the poor will not, but instead smart kids will be relieved of college debt and more smart kids will attend Community College, and raise the standards by attending.
Brooks claims that this is the "1970s liberal orthodoxy" whereas it turns that orthodoxy on it's head. In the 1970s "open enrollment" destroyed the Community College. This is not open enrollment but merit based scholarships.
This is another example of corrupt logic by Brooks. He is shameless in his pursuit of preventing government from working or in portraying government as inept.
I would like to know what Brooks and his fans want. Do they want to be ruled by corporations? Do they want to discourage Americans from believing in democracy?
David also has many false equivalences. Providing free Community College to students with good grades is not the same as providing Pell grants to poor students. Obama's plan is to provide free Community College to those who can succeed and protect them from being impoverished by attending college. Brooks claims that middle class kids will be advantaged and the poor will not, but instead smart kids will be relieved of college debt and more smart kids will attend Community College, and raise the standards by attending.
Brooks claims that this is the "1970s liberal orthodoxy" whereas it turns that orthodoxy on it's head. In the 1970s "open enrollment" destroyed the Community College. This is not open enrollment but merit based scholarships.
This is another example of corrupt logic by Brooks. He is shameless in his pursuit of preventing government from working or in portraying government as inept.
I would like to know what Brooks and his fans want. Do they want to be ruled by corporations? Do they want to discourage Americans from believing in democracy?
3
I think you should have defined middle and upper-middle class. A family earning 50K? 100k? 200k? If you believe it is over 100k, do you really think their children are going to community college? You are using the standard republican canard, like when they talk about small business (which really means any business grossing over 100 million dollars).
Your "middle" class get to to go to the better universities. Obama's plan will make a big difference for the real middle class.
Your "middle" class get to to go to the better universities. Obama's plan will make a big difference for the real middle class.
7
In other words, you'd make it so complex and expensive that it will never pass, and just as the R's would like we're back at having government do nothing. (Strange, a conservative saying that a liberal program should be scrapped because the government isn't doing enough to help.)
5
How about a version of cap-and-trade? Corporations could give money to community colleges in exchange for being allowed to pay graduates less than minimum wage?
2
"Community college drop out rates now hover somewhere between 66 percent and 80 percent." That's an eye opener, but Mr. Brooks does not dive into the reasons that so many are dropping out. My guess is money.
According to With Their Whole Lives Ahead of Them, A Public Agenda Report for The Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation the top two reasons that people drop out is money:
54% needed to work to support themselves or families and could not balance work and classes
31% could not afford college
More revealing statistics:
60% of community college students work 20 hours per week
25% of community college students work 35 or more hours per week
23% of all college students have dependent children
62% of all college students who drop out are responsible for paying for their own education
College costs have risen 400% in the last 25 years
Community college costs have risen 200% in the last 7 years and 7.3% since 2009
30% of students who drop out still must repay student loans
Textbook costs have significantly increased in the past 10 years
60% of community college students are enrolled part-time, limiting their financial aid and benefit options, including access to health care.
Human Capital 2.0 only makes sure that when trying to get the money to the student, it goes through middlemen who take their cut, and another racket will be in place to help the 1% get their hands on taxpayer money meant for the 99%.
According to With Their Whole Lives Ahead of Them, A Public Agenda Report for The Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation the top two reasons that people drop out is money:
54% needed to work to support themselves or families and could not balance work and classes
31% could not afford college
More revealing statistics:
60% of community college students work 20 hours per week
25% of community college students work 35 or more hours per week
23% of all college students have dependent children
62% of all college students who drop out are responsible for paying for their own education
College costs have risen 400% in the last 25 years
Community college costs have risen 200% in the last 7 years and 7.3% since 2009
30% of students who drop out still must repay student loans
Textbook costs have significantly increased in the past 10 years
60% of community college students are enrolled part-time, limiting their financial aid and benefit options, including access to health care.
Human Capital 2.0 only makes sure that when trying to get the money to the student, it goes through middlemen who take their cut, and another racket will be in place to help the 1% get their hands on taxpayer money meant for the 99%.
10
Why not do both? Make them tuition free and juice up the counseling, tutoring and remediation services. Subsidize a day dare at each school, or require students to work in the day care too. Pay for it by reducing or eliminating the subsidized student loan programs to for profit schools. Glad I didn't play with guys like Brooks in high school sports. Come to think of it I did and took a whole bunch of unnecessary hits because they quit too soon.
10
Mr. Brooks writes "These bright days serve as evidence that America can live up to its dream of social mobility, that there is hope at a time when the ladder upward seems creaky and inadequate."
Unfortunately, the ladder truly is creaky and inadequate. It's called "the Great Compression," and it refers to post-1980 America. Money is power, and it has waged war on working families.
Unfortunately, the ladder truly is creaky and inadequate. It's called "the Great Compression," and it refers to post-1980 America. Money is power, and it has waged war on working families.
8
Lots of good ideas from David Brooks; I like them all. However, day care, counselors, transportation, and housing, are not things that Congress is likely to get behind. Lets just call these suggestions infrastructure and social supports - incredibly important for all, not just community college students - not very popular though in today's political climate.
7
I hear your comments and I think a lot of them make sense. However, I've been in the community college is my only option position - more than one quarter or semester. In fact, I had to struggle through my entire college experience. For that reason I think it's better to focus on tuition, the INITIAL barrier to attending any sort of college.
Yes, buying books and child care would be helpful. Those are probably the biggest obstacles, but still tuition subsidization is primary. This is especially true when you move from community college into the next level. Most schools want a chunk of change not available to even middle-class parents or those who have been working to save for college.
If we had a better minimum wage situation this might not be such a big deal, but we've already seen our middle and lower economic class incomes diminish. But, you see, it all ties into one theme...the middle class isn't in the middle any more and the poorer people earning below middle class wages haven't got a chance.
This trickle-down, supply-side economics is a twisted road and not producing results. It's entwined into everything about our society and it's undermining what used to be the land of opportunity.
I would never have been able to go to school without financial aid paying for tuition and books. I ALWAYS worked and I paid back my student loans. But my success was dependent upon a lower cost barrier and the promise of better wages.
I think Obama has it right.
Yes, buying books and child care would be helpful. Those are probably the biggest obstacles, but still tuition subsidization is primary. This is especially true when you move from community college into the next level. Most schools want a chunk of change not available to even middle-class parents or those who have been working to save for college.
If we had a better minimum wage situation this might not be such a big deal, but we've already seen our middle and lower economic class incomes diminish. But, you see, it all ties into one theme...the middle class isn't in the middle any more and the poorer people earning below middle class wages haven't got a chance.
This trickle-down, supply-side economics is a twisted road and not producing results. It's entwined into everything about our society and it's undermining what used to be the land of opportunity.
I would never have been able to go to school without financial aid paying for tuition and books. I ALWAYS worked and I paid back my student loans. But my success was dependent upon a lower cost barrier and the promise of better wages.
I think Obama has it right.
10
According to a recent White House Survey, 37% of Americans are concerned about the Economy and only 16% believe in Education for our Children? Are we not able to see the link between the two?
Mr. Brooks can spout off like a porpoise with a purpose with sentences as 'Spending $60 billion over 10 years to make community college free will do little to reduce that',..but I am Game to go ahead with this, while learning more of the importance of Higher Education.
It begins at Home. Parents have rights with responsibilities. Someone I worked for, Dr. Lim, was to win the Third World Prize Award for Children in 1979. She came from a family of 14, went to school in slippers where there were no books; received a scholarship at the University of Michigan in clinical psychology. It was an uphill battle, but she did it and rolled up her sleeves.
For some reason all my life, college drop-outs have been seen on the part of privileged children to their detriment, while my circle of friends were working in an office long hours and taking night classes through scholarship.
Today they are caring people; professional and responsible; responsible in passing the banner to their own children today on the importance of Education, with their emotional support, guidance and love.
An American wrote all about the import of Education in his 'Stoner', including the pitfalls of academic rhetoric such as this latest from Mr. Brooks, and less of his negatives that confuse the issue.
Mr. Brooks can spout off like a porpoise with a purpose with sentences as 'Spending $60 billion over 10 years to make community college free will do little to reduce that',..but I am Game to go ahead with this, while learning more of the importance of Higher Education.
It begins at Home. Parents have rights with responsibilities. Someone I worked for, Dr. Lim, was to win the Third World Prize Award for Children in 1979. She came from a family of 14, went to school in slippers where there were no books; received a scholarship at the University of Michigan in clinical psychology. It was an uphill battle, but she did it and rolled up her sleeves.
For some reason all my life, college drop-outs have been seen on the part of privileged children to their detriment, while my circle of friends were working in an office long hours and taking night classes through scholarship.
Today they are caring people; professional and responsible; responsible in passing the banner to their own children today on the importance of Education, with their emotional support, guidance and love.
An American wrote all about the import of Education in his 'Stoner', including the pitfalls of academic rhetoric such as this latest from Mr. Brooks, and less of his negatives that confuse the issue.
3
At the risk of sounding like a liberal orthodox who wants nothing more than to give money to poor people (as if a lack of money does not contribute to "disorganized circumstances"), is it possible that "Human Capital 1.0" was motivated by a desire for justice and fairness? Being interested in neither proposition, the Republicans running this Congress will take the proposal, scrap it, and stop there.
14
"It would reduce two years of tuition costs to zero for students with decent grades and who graduate within three years."
This sounds like free doesn't apply to dropping out or did I miss something?
This sounds like free doesn't apply to dropping out or did I miss something?
7
Still waiting for that brilliant Republican Obamacare 2.0 that was going fix all the "problems." I'm sure the 2.0 college ideas will be just as effective from the Republicans.
13
For many years the city colleges were virtually free to all who qualified. I was fortunate enough to have attended Hunter College in the Bronx . Thousands of the city colleges graduates became teachers, engineers, scientists , doctors, nurses, social workers, accountants, writers , politicians.......Free community colleges will benefit all of us.
40
The Obama chorus commenting remains in serious denial. As David Brooks rightly points out making a bad product free is no bargain.
Not seeing where David Brooks thinks it is a bad product--see the first paragraph. What he is noting is that free tuition is an incomplete solution.
3
Education is not a product. Education is a process that creates opportunities for development, equality, and economic success. When it is used as a product to be sold for profit, the goal is no longer to support democracy but rather to systematically oppress those not already in power.
3
Do you really think community college is a bad product? Many students go to community college to retrain when they lose their jobs. I also kniw several students who go to community college for two years before transferring to a university. Most of these students live with their parents when attending college. Textbooks are available used. If you are worried about students dropping out, I presume their grades wouldn't be good enough to get free tuition. Have you checked on the number of dropouts from even top universities?
2
One of things I never see in this kind of discussion is, Where did the money go?
I know taxes are down, but that can't be the complete story. What are states and the Federal government spending their money on now that they cut funding for colleges?
I know taxes are down, but that can't be the complete story. What are states and the Federal government spending their money on now that they cut funding for colleges?
9
For one, the Federal government is paying for the catastrophe in Iraq, while states are paying more for prisons than education..... go figure!
6
Easy...gaming the system for the usual suspects.
3
Health care costs. Plain and simple. If you want to know why any major institution is so much more expensive to run now, look at the percent of their budget spent on employee health care. Over the past 10-15 years the increase is simply astronomical. You can "cut costs" all you want, but when the cost of health care is increasing by 100% every 2-5 years you're never going to close that gap as long as you have employees.
Mr. David Brooks,
Why should we pay for free tuition, when we can import educated people from China, India, Europe, and South America?
Why should we pay for free tuition, when we can import educated people from China, India, Europe, and South America?
11
In all seriousness - unless those persons go back - their home countries become poorer by brain drain. That further causes pressure to migrate for others on the lower end of the scale. Hence many of the problems we have now. Nothing happens in a vacuum.
2
I'm curious to see what will come of Mr. Obama's community college initiative. David presents another take on this, claiming that government already is deeply involved but only in one dimension -- precisely the tuition that Mr. Obama claims needs boosting with his initiative; and not in services that support successful outcomes at community colleges -- graduations. Anecdotally, I wonder if that's true, given the weight of student loans: the class of 2014 was the most indebted in history, and a lot of that came from community college debt.
Yet, if sixty billion in tuition assistance is needed IN ADDITION to Pell grants and other assistance, as Mr. Obama claims, and another sixty billion is necessary for the services that support students and dramatically reduce drop-out rates, as David suggests, then that's a serious chunk of money.
Whether it's Mr. Obama's emphasis or David's, this sounds a lot like the priority system Europe has chosen, where fees and in some countries even living expenses are heavily subsidized, even eliminated. Problem is that in their system, they don't need to defend themselves: we largely do that for them, and have for decades. We see a lot of destabilization in the world largely because industrialized countries are prioritizing social needs above defense needs, apparently hoping that the crazies and the buccaneers aren't REALLY serious. But we know they are.
One thing's certain, though: there's no dearth of ideas from the right.
Yet, if sixty billion in tuition assistance is needed IN ADDITION to Pell grants and other assistance, as Mr. Obama claims, and another sixty billion is necessary for the services that support students and dramatically reduce drop-out rates, as David suggests, then that's a serious chunk of money.
Whether it's Mr. Obama's emphasis or David's, this sounds a lot like the priority system Europe has chosen, where fees and in some countries even living expenses are heavily subsidized, even eliminated. Problem is that in their system, they don't need to defend themselves: we largely do that for them, and have for decades. We see a lot of destabilization in the world largely because industrialized countries are prioritizing social needs above defense needs, apparently hoping that the crazies and the buccaneers aren't REALLY serious. But we know they are.
One thing's certain, though: there's no dearth of ideas from the right.
5
No, but there is a dearth of GOOD ideas from the right.
Let's start sending our European allies an invoice every month for protecting them against the buccaneers. We can use the money toward paying tuition for all at our community colleges. Perish the thought that the 1% might kick in a few dollars to help their fellow man. May they burn in hell with their money!
Let's start sending our European allies an invoice every month for protecting them against the buccaneers. We can use the money toward paying tuition for all at our community colleges. Perish the thought that the 1% might kick in a few dollars to help their fellow man. May they burn in hell with their money!
1
Richard - so glad you're worried about being fiscally responsible now when the beneficiaries are the middle class. That $60 billion OVER TEN TEARS seems relatively cheap to me considering this country was throwing away $2 billion A WEEK in Iraq for 8 years. Ike said it best when he said this country should not spend one penny more than it needed for defense. While I truly understand the need to keep the wolves at bay (or the buccaneers, as you put it), I'll never for the life of me understand how people like you can unquestionably want to spend billions and trillions of dollars on war but become penny=pinchers when the money is spent on our own citizens.
2
Pooja:
Europe will use the invoice to line the holes in their shoes -- they're going broke paying for their nanny states, SESPITE eviscerating their defenses to do it.
And the 1% and the 5% already kick in enough toward keeping the trains running, feeding the indigent and educating everyone. It's astonishing how certain everyone else is that OTHER PEOPLE owe society more than they already pay.
The small businessman, who's likely to get hammered by this initiative in the VERY unlikely event that it gets by Congress, as David explains, by having even MORE of his income taken from him when already he may be sending well over 50% of it to the feds, states and localities, isn't going to Hell with ANYONE'S money, because it's all been expropriated. It's the lower 50% of earners in our country that may be going there with someone ELSE'S money.
As to the quality of ideas from the left and right, I became disenchanted with the left's when I saw what an abysmal failure LBJ's Great Society was at securing its objective, which was the elimination of poverty in America -- and at immense cost.
Europe will use the invoice to line the holes in their shoes -- they're going broke paying for their nanny states, SESPITE eviscerating their defenses to do it.
And the 1% and the 5% already kick in enough toward keeping the trains running, feeding the indigent and educating everyone. It's astonishing how certain everyone else is that OTHER PEOPLE owe society more than they already pay.
The small businessman, who's likely to get hammered by this initiative in the VERY unlikely event that it gets by Congress, as David explains, by having even MORE of his income taken from him when already he may be sending well over 50% of it to the feds, states and localities, isn't going to Hell with ANYONE'S money, because it's all been expropriated. It's the lower 50% of earners in our country that may be going there with someone ELSE'S money.
As to the quality of ideas from the left and right, I became disenchanted with the left's when I saw what an abysmal failure LBJ's Great Society was at securing its objective, which was the elimination of poverty in America -- and at immense cost.
1
Am I missing something here?
Mr. Brooks really, seriously expects Congress to do something, anything, to address a real issue
Where has he been? Is he being naïve or cynical?
The real solution to all problems, from education, national security and the environment is to slash taxes for the wealthy while encouraging corporations to purchase the few politcians that they don't already own.
That's it. No thinking or governing is required.
Brave new world.
Mr. Brooks really, seriously expects Congress to do something, anything, to address a real issue
Where has he been? Is he being naïve or cynical?
The real solution to all problems, from education, national security and the environment is to slash taxes for the wealthy while encouraging corporations to purchase the few politcians that they don't already own.
That's it. No thinking or governing is required.
Brave new world.
58
... What about strengthening the underlying schools K thru 12 to better prepare kids for the challenges of independent life and learning?... Strengthen an apprentice program?... Free tuition is just a subsidy to the "education industry" some may make use of it and learn others will have no more than a piece of paper from "Freds get rich school for loafers" and a loss of 2 years potential earnings. This misses the mark on so many levels.
8
AS THE FUNCTION OF COLLEGES EVOLVE
When I was a young , it was clear that being a "college graduate" meant many things. All had great valence: you were smarter than people who didn't achieve; you earned more; status...
But, I thought that the most prime purpose of obtaining a B.A. was for oneself -- that this four year process was, in the main, an experience which had the potential ability to have you evolve into a more transcendent state. To see yourself, others, and the world in clearer and in a more coherent manner.
The students when I was in college during the counterculture days were (with some exceptions were mainly interested in the humanities. Those who were say, accounting majors... Well, they were scorned. How materialistic! money was not the priority to following one's passion.
Now, with so many more believing that the prime purpose of college is not to follow one's bliss -- but for employment. As the public educational system has declined many of the incoming students are far less prepared and if graduated it is by any means necessary.
Maybe I'm a bit too idealistic. So, I do agree with Obama's plan to broaden post high school education to community colleges. I should get more real.
But, I still believe that the original design and purpose of a four year college fulfills the needs of the student (who is prepared and has true curiosity) for the student's fulfillment in life.
But, the imperative for survival trumps one's spiritual and intellectual needs.
When I was a young , it was clear that being a "college graduate" meant many things. All had great valence: you were smarter than people who didn't achieve; you earned more; status...
But, I thought that the most prime purpose of obtaining a B.A. was for oneself -- that this four year process was, in the main, an experience which had the potential ability to have you evolve into a more transcendent state. To see yourself, others, and the world in clearer and in a more coherent manner.
The students when I was in college during the counterculture days were (with some exceptions were mainly interested in the humanities. Those who were say, accounting majors... Well, they were scorned. How materialistic! money was not the priority to following one's passion.
Now, with so many more believing that the prime purpose of college is not to follow one's bliss -- but for employment. As the public educational system has declined many of the incoming students are far less prepared and if graduated it is by any means necessary.
Maybe I'm a bit too idealistic. So, I do agree with Obama's plan to broaden post high school education to community colleges. I should get more real.
But, I still believe that the original design and purpose of a four year college fulfills the needs of the student (who is prepared and has true curiosity) for the student's fulfillment in life.
But, the imperative for survival trumps one's spiritual and intellectual needs.
8
Drop out rates are misleading. Currently, there is no way to measure if a student that leaves an institution eventually graduates from another. "Graduation Rates" merely measure how many incoming students graduate from their first institution. By this measure institutions get no credit for preparing students to graduate from the school they transfer to, or for graduating incoming transfer students.
In my experience, community college students often transfer to a 4 year institution when they feel they are ready, before they get their associates degree.
I base my opinion on my experience as a Professor at a small, 4 year, liberal arts college that serves first generation students.
In my experience, community college students often transfer to a 4 year institution when they feel they are ready, before they get their associates degree.
I base my opinion on my experience as a Professor at a small, 4 year, liberal arts college that serves first generation students.
182
Very good point. The statistics reference by Brooks are based on the assumption that every student attending community college must be on a path to a two-year degree, when this either isn't the case for most students, or their plans change for a wide range of reasons.
8
Community colleges and vocational schools are a great investment that prepares many students for career happiness at reasonable cost. We need to to give them what they need to do the job well.
"By this measure institutions get no credit for preparing students to graduate from the school they transfer to, or for graduating incoming transfer students."
Exactly. My daughter, who is on the autistic spectrum, is a dual-enrolled homeschooled high school student; she's been taking community college classes for three semesters and loving it. She will not graduate with an AA, because that was not our purpose; nor is that the single purpose a community college serves. She will, however, go on to a four year college with a lot less anxiety, having experienced enrollment procedures, different professors, keeping up with the workload, and learning to advocate for herself at the Disability Services office. I am more grateful to the community college than I can ever express. Her "success" there has nothing whatever to do with whether or not she graduates from that particular institution. Although for statistical purposes I suppose she would fall into the category of "dropping out," nothing could be further from representing the truth of how much the community college has done for her, serving as a springboard to opportunities she would not have been able to manage previously.
Exactly. My daughter, who is on the autistic spectrum, is a dual-enrolled homeschooled high school student; she's been taking community college classes for three semesters and loving it. She will not graduate with an AA, because that was not our purpose; nor is that the single purpose a community college serves. She will, however, go on to a four year college with a lot less anxiety, having experienced enrollment procedures, different professors, keeping up with the workload, and learning to advocate for herself at the Disability Services office. I am more grateful to the community college than I can ever express. Her "success" there has nothing whatever to do with whether or not she graduates from that particular institution. Although for statistical purposes I suppose she would fall into the category of "dropping out," nothing could be further from representing the truth of how much the community college has done for her, serving as a springboard to opportunities she would not have been able to manage previously.
3
People do not value what they receive for free. For 38 % of students community college is free and the drop out rate between 66 percent and 80 percent. Make it free for all and drop out rates will increase.
2
Absent any other statistic, the dropout rates will be the same for all free students. However, in absolute numbers, more students will graduate. How can that be a bad thing?
2
And in its candy-coated shell is Mr. Brooks usual bitter pill:
"Liberal idea, bad idea -- what the poor need is more character and gumption"
At least he recognizes the daunting challenge of attempting schooling amid the challenges of raising and schooling children of ones' own, and seems to suggest Government (!?) should provide financial help.
But his dismissal of previous (what exactly ?) financial support for poor as failure is merely recitation of unsubstantiated Conservative 1.0 rationale for denying e.g. food stamps and unemployment insurance to those who need them, because David knows that would not be really building their character.
Sadly, the community college system will fail to get a financial rejuvenation from an even more cynical Congress which will barely pay lip service to the needs of our growing underclass while maintaining its First Principle: Obama's idea, bad idea.
"Liberal idea, bad idea -- what the poor need is more character and gumption"
At least he recognizes the daunting challenge of attempting schooling amid the challenges of raising and schooling children of ones' own, and seems to suggest Government (!?) should provide financial help.
But his dismissal of previous (what exactly ?) financial support for poor as failure is merely recitation of unsubstantiated Conservative 1.0 rationale for denying e.g. food stamps and unemployment insurance to those who need them, because David knows that would not be really building their character.
Sadly, the community college system will fail to get a financial rejuvenation from an even more cynical Congress which will barely pay lip service to the needs of our growing underclass while maintaining its First Principle: Obama's idea, bad idea.
32
Free tuition and services like childcare would surely help more students to obtain degrees. I don't think they are mutually exclusive. Many countries in western Europe think not.
Here in Arizona we have a large network of community colleges in lieu of smaller state schools as in California, or MAC type schools. Students are allowed to take five semesters of class before matriculating to ASU, UA, or NAU.
The biggest problem for these juco students sticking in school is not lack of money, it's the ability to do college work. Most of them are woefully under-prepared.
I fully support the president's plan. But I wish we had a movement in this country that would inspire the rank-and-file high school student to prepare, to get ready for life, and to take academics seriously. Alas, there is little help from American parents who in the main are anti-intellectual and implicitly promote a cerebral disorganization even at the vocational level.
Our society needs less hedonism and more contemplation of what happens when mind and matter come together to produce not only things to sell, but to produce a good, stable society.
That's what happens in a society like Germany. We have the best and brightest. But the hoi polloi are in a constant state of distraction and carelessness. Before the digital age, Robert Pirsig called this state, "an endless parade of trivia and fashion." Now it's gone viral.
Here in Arizona we have a large network of community colleges in lieu of smaller state schools as in California, or MAC type schools. Students are allowed to take five semesters of class before matriculating to ASU, UA, or NAU.
The biggest problem for these juco students sticking in school is not lack of money, it's the ability to do college work. Most of them are woefully under-prepared.
I fully support the president's plan. But I wish we had a movement in this country that would inspire the rank-and-file high school student to prepare, to get ready for life, and to take academics seriously. Alas, there is little help from American parents who in the main are anti-intellectual and implicitly promote a cerebral disorganization even at the vocational level.
Our society needs less hedonism and more contemplation of what happens when mind and matter come together to produce not only things to sell, but to produce a good, stable society.
That's what happens in a society like Germany. We have the best and brightest. But the hoi polloi are in a constant state of distraction and carelessness. Before the digital age, Robert Pirsig called this state, "an endless parade of trivia and fashion." Now it's gone viral.
20
So much money is wasted on earning credits for certifications. Why should the government waste taxpayer money pumping up the supply of paralegals, nurse assistants or machine operators? Industry should be responsible for this training. Community colleges should focus on core disciplines, perhaps with an engineering / math focus to be more responsive to industry, but not completely in the lap of an HR department's demand for ephemeral technical certifications.
5
A job is a job. Each job creates a voting, taxpaying citizen. Maybe that's the anthem problem.
1
You can vote and pay taxes if you have no job. I'm not even sure what your point is. Saying a job is a job ignores the entire point of education, which is to differentiate and specialize. Perhaps in your world we fund schools to crank out talentless drones to perpetuate taxes and elections.
1
Human Cap[ital 1.0 and 2.0? Really? This may support my thought to give a prize to the largest "Straw Man Argument" of the year competition ... One sets up a false dichotomy to subvert common sense, and then argues the validity of the falsity! And that is exactly what Mr. Brooks has accomplished here; too sad.
For instance, the statistics on "drop-out" or "non-completion" rates may have very little to do with whether the students got what they needed/wanted from 4 or 5 (or 2!) courses and were able to get the job (or skill) they desired.
Having taught "Intro to College Writing" (a remedial course if there ever was one!) I found it an opportunity to challenge students to think differently about thinking, abnout writing, about learning ... No, not to indoctrinate them with liberal ideas, but to help them see that there was more to the world than they had experienced so far, and that their engagement with it was (in itself) valuable. The issue, as in all education, was not just to make them better writers (or engineers, or whatever) but to lead them to think critically.
A disappointing column, Mr. Brooks; not well thought out, it collapses under its own weight. But then, straw men were never meant to be foundations.
For instance, the statistics on "drop-out" or "non-completion" rates may have very little to do with whether the students got what they needed/wanted from 4 or 5 (or 2!) courses and were able to get the job (or skill) they desired.
Having taught "Intro to College Writing" (a remedial course if there ever was one!) I found it an opportunity to challenge students to think differently about thinking, abnout writing, about learning ... No, not to indoctrinate them with liberal ideas, but to help them see that there was more to the world than they had experienced so far, and that their engagement with it was (in itself) valuable. The issue, as in all education, was not just to make them better writers (or engineers, or whatever) but to lead them to think critically.
A disappointing column, Mr. Brooks; not well thought out, it collapses under its own weight. But then, straw men were never meant to be foundations.
56
That's right. At 60yrs old I went to a community college to take a few computer classes. Although enrolled in a certificate program I didn't need it; I aleady had a M.A. I only took 4 classes. Am I a drop out?
4
good stuff - as an Australian community college equivalent teacher, I totally agree - rather than funding middle-income folk who can pay their own way, better to improve the support for free students and completion rates would increase. Just by emailing missing students last semester I saw attendance rates jump - just one little human contact so they knew someone cared about them - made a difference.
Here in Oz our conservative state governments are slashing budgets and raising fees for such students - a neo-con agenda to privatise education I believe - yet strangely our Prime Minister recently visited a Brooklyn P-tech and expressed interest in that model for Australia - hmmm - slash budgets for existing colleges yet want to create new ones - ah - I think the motive is profit for private companies - feeder streams for low wage factory workers
Here in Oz our conservative state governments are slashing budgets and raising fees for such students - a neo-con agenda to privatise education I believe - yet strangely our Prime Minister recently visited a Brooklyn P-tech and expressed interest in that model for Australia - hmmm - slash budgets for existing colleges yet want to create new ones - ah - I think the motive is profit for private companies - feeder streams for low wage factory workers
14
Community college for FREE is an excellent idea. The only valid debate is how much and where the money comes from. It does not even matter if attendees learn (academically) it is the opportunity to take part that is important.
It is not always the certificate or degree that matters. As a small business owner for many years I have found my greatest employment successes in those who 'dropped out' or never even joined but had a passion.
Brooks simply enjoys reveling in his Republican fueled contrarianism when it come to anything related to Obama. It's sad really, demonstrates a lack of something... OK, to be fair, perhaps that's his remit at the NYT.
Heck! take 0.1% of the budget that goes to pay for pencils at our Dept. of Defense and a community college for FREE program could be fully funded. This is petty cash relative to the return that might be realized from the investment.
It is not always the certificate or degree that matters. As a small business owner for many years I have found my greatest employment successes in those who 'dropped out' or never even joined but had a passion.
Brooks simply enjoys reveling in his Republican fueled contrarianism when it come to anything related to Obama. It's sad really, demonstrates a lack of something... OK, to be fair, perhaps that's his remit at the NYT.
Heck! take 0.1% of the budget that goes to pay for pencils at our Dept. of Defense and a community college for FREE program could be fully funded. This is petty cash relative to the return that might be realized from the investment.
17
Obama -- and too many well intentioned Americans -- believe that, like in Lake Woebegone, all children are above average. So all people have the mental capability to graduate from Community College. Despite that a great many of America's young can't even read or do arithmetic past the 8th grade level, much less have the capability to graduate from high school.
So the answer too often, we have seen, is... just lower the standards. (Which is why America's educational achievement levels have been steadily dropping, compared to much of the rest of the world. Trying to raise educational standards in America -- for example, through use of a Common Core -- is increasingly not acceptable, since too many students fail with the Common Core.)
What makes Obama think that making Community College free -- like Kindergarten through High School) already is -- will increase the educational achievement levels of America?
So the answer too often, we have seen, is... just lower the standards. (Which is why America's educational achievement levels have been steadily dropping, compared to much of the rest of the world. Trying to raise educational standards in America -- for example, through use of a Common Core -- is increasingly not acceptable, since too many students fail with the Common Core.)
What makes Obama think that making Community College free -- like Kindergarten through High School) already is -- will increase the educational achievement levels of America?
6
Perhaps we are talking about skill levels as opposed to education levels. Community colleges do teach courses directly related to job skills as opposed to the general education of K-12.
5
We can find out by trying. We need to dos omething.
2
Community colleges have many programs that aren't meant to provide a college education. One of my acquaintances went to community college, works a three-day week as an oncology radiologist, and makes more money than her sister who is a full-time teacher with an advanced degree and 20 years of experience. Community colleges have programs in auto mechanics, plumbimg, carpentry, construction and many other employable skills. Too many people don't low,the first thing about community colleges.
4
Dear Mr. Brooks, I taught at a community college from 1995 to 2009. I frequently chaired the committee that removed deficient students from college. Most of these students were there because their parents made them go. (To stay on health insurance policy.) Most students worked to cover tuition. How about a higher minimum wage and we would help solve the tuition and living expense problem? Note that tuition increased because GOP politicians cut state support for community colleges. In the meantime, here is what I remember from 1994 to 2009. Most traditional students lived at home. Many also (pre Obamacare) were there to stay on their parent's health care benefits. Almost all were engaged in some student activity--even if it was our NORML club's "rock, paper, scissor's tournament." Guidance counselors and mentors? What? This is not high school. Students never wanted to meet with an advisor period. (Frequent question: "Could you sign my advising form without reading it?") How about more instructors to teach classes at times that are more convenient to students? How about more support for online courses and their instructors? This means 24 hour help desk. IT support to make university web sites run 24 hours. This also means lower tuition for students taking online courses. In other words, let's try the method that people say never works, but few people have actually tried: "Let's throw money at the problem."
158
I like Brooks' ideas better.
why don't you send this to president obama? I'm a retired community college teacher.
3
Shouldn't we use the great laboratory of democracy to try various versions of these plans first in various states rather than a full nationwide rollout all at once? I suspect Brook's proposal with child care and rents subsidies etc. will make CC an attractive alternative to work for millions of students and create a powerful lobby of faculty and staff dedicated to keeping people enrolled no matter what (or "fighting very every kid's future" as they will call it) because their jobs and budgets will depend on it. It's not clear to me that most of these graduates will do substantially better in their careers with these degrees. As Brooks notes, many need remedial help meaning they couldn't really master high school (despite being there for 4 years at great taxpayer expense). A lot of this stems from the bizarre conclusion that because college grads do better in work and life, more people should go to college and they will do just as well. People photographed on yachts are wealthier. Does it follow that if I get on a yacht and take a picture of myself, that I also will be wealthier? Of course some great success stories will come out of a Brooks or Obama plan but how many? And would some of these people been equally successful any way. I'd like to the results of a small scale version of this before signing up for what will likely become a permanent expensive future entitlement.
"...a powerful lobby of faculty and staff..."??? Don't think so. Actual faculty (mostly "adjunct" professors and instructors) don't have time to lobby for things nowadays. They have to take on a heavy course load just to make ends meet.
But I do agree that we should be trying out all ideas on a small scale before rolling out a single plan across the nation. Don't hold your breath, though. Look how fast Common Core--completely untested--was pushed out. And there is money to be made associated with the "accountability measures" that come as the strings attached to the "free tuition" part; so, you will see various corporate types jump aboard this bandwagon to endorse the idea. We are headed toward requisite "advanced high school" for the poor, and some (businesses) will profit by it.
But I do agree that we should be trying out all ideas on a small scale before rolling out a single plan across the nation. Don't hold your breath, though. Look how fast Common Core--completely untested--was pushed out. And there is money to be made associated with the "accountability measures" that come as the strings attached to the "free tuition" part; so, you will see various corporate types jump aboard this bandwagon to endorse the idea. We are headed toward requisite "advanced high school" for the poor, and some (businesses) will profit by it.
I agree with most of the recommendations you've made in addition to free tuition for community college, Mr. Brooks. If the federal government supported students efforts to attend these types of schools for free instead of "for profit" institutions like University of Phoenix, ITT Tech school, Capella Univ. they'd end up graduating with alot less student loan debt. Education is not something that should be a business and subsidized by the federal government.
An even better use of federal funds would be to support trade schools built into high schools similar to Europe so students who weren't interested in attending college could learn a marketable trade like computer repair, welding, health care technician or aeronautics mechanic. By strengthening high schools connections with community college by assigning graduation credits, more students who like to work with their hands instead of by the book would be encouraged to stay in school instead of drop out. Many would argue that this is tracking although if it helps more people find good paying jobs instead of spending thousands of dollars on a college degree that doesn't lead to a real job, it might be worth the trade off.
An even better use of federal funds would be to support trade schools built into high schools similar to Europe so students who weren't interested in attending college could learn a marketable trade like computer repair, welding, health care technician or aeronautics mechanic. By strengthening high schools connections with community college by assigning graduation credits, more students who like to work with their hands instead of by the book would be encouraged to stay in school instead of drop out. Many would argue that this is tracking although if it helps more people find good paying jobs instead of spending thousands of dollars on a college degree that doesn't lead to a real job, it might be worth the trade off.
132
You are apparently not acquainted with community colleges. Community colleges have programs in many trades -- auto mechanics, plumbimg, carpentry, construction, computer programming and repair, child care, catering, radiology, health care aides, to name a few. They also have traditional academic programs for those who want to transfer to a four-year college.
1
Worse than a high dropout rate is a high grade inflation rate.
Incompetent, unmotivated students blame their teachers. Academic administrators are often too busy or too incompetent to personally evaluate teachers, relying on student evaluations--which is like asking the blind if the sighted read the chart correctly--as well as statistics on standardized tests--as though good and bad teachers are the only causes of student success or failure.
Often ff student evaluations confirm administrator prejudices they are counted; those that don't get discounted--"Oh she's a tough grader, has a heavy reading list, won't suffer fools" etc. (suspect an admin toady).
To get good evaluations teachers inflate grades, water down course content, cancel classes before long weekends, indulge fools.
Free tuition is only worth its price if educational standards are compromised to keep students enrolled. The diploma or degree won't be worth the paper it's printed on.
It's not just getting them in; and not just keeping them there.
It's providing genuine opportunities to learn valuable life lessons. Many if not most of those are not job specific. Even those that are often ignore an important part of the job--any job--namely the associated work ethic.
Sycophancy might be part of that "real world" job ethic; but so is whistleblowing. Otherwise colleges will turn out drones--who will easily work for democracies as well as kleptocracies--for ISIS or the US--for polluters or reclaimers.
Incompetent, unmotivated students blame their teachers. Academic administrators are often too busy or too incompetent to personally evaluate teachers, relying on student evaluations--which is like asking the blind if the sighted read the chart correctly--as well as statistics on standardized tests--as though good and bad teachers are the only causes of student success or failure.
Often ff student evaluations confirm administrator prejudices they are counted; those that don't get discounted--"Oh she's a tough grader, has a heavy reading list, won't suffer fools" etc. (suspect an admin toady).
To get good evaluations teachers inflate grades, water down course content, cancel classes before long weekends, indulge fools.
Free tuition is only worth its price if educational standards are compromised to keep students enrolled. The diploma or degree won't be worth the paper it's printed on.
It's not just getting them in; and not just keeping them there.
It's providing genuine opportunities to learn valuable life lessons. Many if not most of those are not job specific. Even those that are often ignore an important part of the job--any job--namely the associated work ethic.
Sycophancy might be part of that "real world" job ethic; but so is whistleblowing. Otherwise colleges will turn out drones--who will easily work for democracies as well as kleptocracies--for ISIS or the US--for polluters or reclaimers.
7
Here's an idea: how about, instead of scrapping the President's plan, Congress do Obama one better and also do the things Brooks proposes?
I'll tell you why: because this congress isn't about helping the 99%of Americans who aren't wealthy, and Republican counter proposals to Democratic plans are more about scrapping proposals that would help the struggling Americans than about implementing such proposals.
I'll tell you why: because this congress isn't about helping the 99%of Americans who aren't wealthy, and Republican counter proposals to Democratic plans are more about scrapping proposals that would help the struggling Americans than about implementing such proposals.
164
Why don't you think about the people that need help rather than your precious party of criminals. Do you really think a "Party" is going to do anything but help themselves. Look at those who have become rich...1% rich...since they've gone to congress....and its not just republicans. So if you want to blame someone, put in on all of them. They're all equally responsible.
1
The smart thing to do would not be to "scrap the Obama tuition plan" but to adopt it and expand it to include some of the suggestions mentioned by Mr. Brooks, along the lines of some of those cited in the Upshot article a few days ago (and some of these are not terribly expensive):
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/01/18/upshot/helping-the-poor-in-higher-educ...
Yes, President Obama's plan with Mr. Brook's additions would cost but the investment in the long term (not a favorite of politicians)would well be worth it.
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/01/18/upshot/helping-the-poor-in-higher-educ...
Yes, President Obama's plan with Mr. Brook's additions would cost but the investment in the long term (not a favorite of politicians)would well be worth it.
39
Good post. The first step is understanding the difference between a cost and an investment. We don't speak of return on cost. The business community bases their business plans on ROI - return on investment. If we run the program like a profitable business we can hope for a favorable return on investment. Or, our present strategy is to "milk" the profits and let the country go to hell in the process.
2
“The smart thing to do would be to scrap the Obama tuition plan”.
Be careful not to let the perfect get in the way of the good. David Brooks voices support for community colleges, then calls for Congress to toss out the proposal by President Obama to provide that support.
Aggressive lobbying on Capitol Hill by the for-profit “colleges” already places the nation’s community colleges at risk. Many, if not most, of these unaccredited and heavily advertised for-profit schools make misleading promises to prospective students about the value of their degrees and awaiting jobs. The for-profit operations receive millions in federal money and would like nothing better than to see the nation’s community colleges fail.
There are other ways to improve the graduation rates at community colleges than to use that goal as an excuse to reject funding proposed by President Obama.
Be careful not to let the perfect get in the way of the good. David Brooks voices support for community colleges, then calls for Congress to toss out the proposal by President Obama to provide that support.
Aggressive lobbying on Capitol Hill by the for-profit “colleges” already places the nation’s community colleges at risk. Many, if not most, of these unaccredited and heavily advertised for-profit schools make misleading promises to prospective students about the value of their degrees and awaiting jobs. The for-profit operations receive millions in federal money and would like nothing better than to see the nation’s community colleges fail.
There are other ways to improve the graduation rates at community colleges than to use that goal as an excuse to reject funding proposed by President Obama.
41
Here's an idea: the student has to come up with some scratch, maybe 100 or 200 dollars per semester. Then, when the full two years of courses are completed, the tuition is forgiven. In other words, there is a reward for performance and dedication, not just enrollment. If we really want to get creative, there should be a cash incentive to finish within a certain timeframe and a bonus, to be applied toward a four year college, for wrapping it up in no more than 2 1/2 yrs.
We don't do enough to consider incentives in a variety of times and places. Instead, we are stuck in the old idea that everyone has to "stand on his own two feet" even though many in our society start out with tremendous disadvantages. Some people, to quote the cliche, are born on third base and congratulate themselves for hitting a triple. Others start outside the ballpark, slamming their heads against the wall, hoping to get in.
America has a lot to gain by having more people with education. We need to place our arms around and embrace, with encouragement, those who might otherwise be locked out. We need to show there is a proven, workable pathway upward. Why limit such a program to community colleges? Why not offer it to qualified students for the first two years in four yr. programs?
Community colleges often fail because the students, still living at home or in their own apartments, don't make the psychological and practical commitment. If they can see a realistic goal, that can change.
Doug Terry
We don't do enough to consider incentives in a variety of times and places. Instead, we are stuck in the old idea that everyone has to "stand on his own two feet" even though many in our society start out with tremendous disadvantages. Some people, to quote the cliche, are born on third base and congratulate themselves for hitting a triple. Others start outside the ballpark, slamming their heads against the wall, hoping to get in.
America has a lot to gain by having more people with education. We need to place our arms around and embrace, with encouragement, those who might otherwise be locked out. We need to show there is a proven, workable pathway upward. Why limit such a program to community colleges? Why not offer it to qualified students for the first two years in four yr. programs?
Community colleges often fail because the students, still living at home or in their own apartments, don't make the psychological and practical commitment. If they can see a realistic goal, that can change.
Doug Terry
14
Yes. We need to give these people a reason to persist through all the issues that will confront them. Some will inevitably fail, but the number who successfully complete the coursework would rise sharply if persistence--grit in brooks' essay--were ingrained.
I actually agree with most of this, but I think Brooks misses the biggest boost you could give these students: raise the minimum wage so that they can pay for their living expenses and the tuition itself -- and so they can survive on their own income (without food stamps) if it takes them some time to graduate. A $7 minimum wage is corporate welfare; it shifts the cost of paying for someone's survival from the corporation hiring them to the government taxpayer.
75
If you raise the minimum wage to $15 per hour as some suggest, it costs roughly $40K a year for the employer (after benefits). The employer will look for a productivity increase of $50K per year to make taking the risk to hire worthwhile.
There is a young woman who works at a nearby McDonald's as a cashier. She is mentally impaired but wins people over through her lovely personality. At a minimum wage of $15 per hour, she would be out of a job. Does she benefit? Does the employer? Does the state?
There is a young woman who works at a nearby McDonald's as a cashier. She is mentally impaired but wins people over through her lovely personality. At a minimum wage of $15 per hour, she would be out of a job. Does she benefit? Does the employer? Does the state?
I must concur that the issue is not getting every student into Community Colleges, but getting those enrolled to complete Associates Degrees and move on to four year institutions. My experience at Wilbur Wright College of the City Colleges of Chicago contradicts the negative image of these schools. After completing active duty in the Navy, I enrolled at Wright, a tax supported school, in the summer of 1971, taking two courses at night. Enrollment cost $20 per semester at the times. I completed the academic requirements for my Associate's Degree in just over 18 months.
As an indifferent high school student, I would not have qualified for the Obama program. At Wright, I met engaging and encouraging faculty, with the talent to bring out the best in their students. I made the Dean's List in three full time semesters, was inducted to "Phi Theta Kappa," the Honors Fraternity of Community Colleges and went on to complete my Bachelor's Degree and then a law degree. None of my subsequent accomplishments would have been possible without my beginning at Wright College. The focus must be on encouraging those currently enrolled in Community Colleges to complete their educations, not engorging these schools with students who are academically incapable and destined to drop out.
As an indifferent high school student, I would not have qualified for the Obama program. At Wright, I met engaging and encouraging faculty, with the talent to bring out the best in their students. I made the Dean's List in three full time semesters, was inducted to "Phi Theta Kappa," the Honors Fraternity of Community Colleges and went on to complete my Bachelor's Degree and then a law degree. None of my subsequent accomplishments would have been possible without my beginning at Wright College. The focus must be on encouraging those currently enrolled in Community Colleges to complete their educations, not engorging these schools with students who are academically incapable and destined to drop out.
71
Let's give it the old Brooks college try and give up before we start, eh ?
All those unwashed county college rabble can't possibly focus their attention deficit disorders long enough to muster up a college degree - let's just quit while we're far behind the civilized world.
And in the civilized world - Germany - higher education is now free, even for international students.
In October 2014, Lower Saxony became the last of seven German states to abolish tuition fees, which were already extremely low compared to America's stratospheric tuition.
“We got rid of tuition fees because we do not want higher education which depends on the wealth of the parents,” said Gabrielle Heinen-Kjajic, the minister for science and culture in Lower Saxony.
Her words were echoed by many in the German government. “Tuition fees are unjust,” said Hamburg’s senator for science Dorothee Stapelfeldt. “They discourage young people who do not have a traditional academic family background from taking up study. It is a core task of politics to ensure that young women and men can study with a high quality standard free of charge in Germany.”
Free education is a concept that is embraced in most of Europe
And in the venal U.S., student loan debt stands at $1.2 trillion - now the second-highest form of consumer debt in the country.
There you have it in a conservative nut shell:
Help people and help society as they do in Europe.
Or completely abandon society and proudly wave the Stars and Stripes.
All those unwashed county college rabble can't possibly focus their attention deficit disorders long enough to muster up a college degree - let's just quit while we're far behind the civilized world.
And in the civilized world - Germany - higher education is now free, even for international students.
In October 2014, Lower Saxony became the last of seven German states to abolish tuition fees, which were already extremely low compared to America's stratospheric tuition.
“We got rid of tuition fees because we do not want higher education which depends on the wealth of the parents,” said Gabrielle Heinen-Kjajic, the minister for science and culture in Lower Saxony.
Her words were echoed by many in the German government. “Tuition fees are unjust,” said Hamburg’s senator for science Dorothee Stapelfeldt. “They discourage young people who do not have a traditional academic family background from taking up study. It is a core task of politics to ensure that young women and men can study with a high quality standard free of charge in Germany.”
Free education is a concept that is embraced in most of Europe
And in the venal U.S., student loan debt stands at $1.2 trillion - now the second-highest form of consumer debt in the country.
There you have it in a conservative nut shell:
Help people and help society as they do in Europe.
Or completely abandon society and proudly wave the Stars and Stripes.
482
Are these benefits available to all students, or just those who've survived the infamous sifting at age 15 or so--where most German students are "tracked" into apprentice programs while a minority stays on the academic track? Are you comparing apples and oranges?
2
And therein lies the root problem. We hold on to our myths of self determination, individualism, everyone rising and falling on their own merits while the rest of the civilized work has figured out how everyone can work together for the success of all. There, they see it as common sense, here we see it as dreaded "socialism".
When we had seemingly unlimited land and resources our myths seemed to be real. Now with three hundred million people in fixed borders and a global economy, it may be time to think in terms of "us" instead of just "me".
When we had seemingly unlimited land and resources our myths seemed to be real. Now with three hundred million people in fixed borders and a global economy, it may be time to think in terms of "us" instead of just "me".
7
People love to compare the U.S. To Europe in regards to college tuition. In Germany though there is no expectation that everyone must go to college. Standards aren't lowered to be politically correct. Due to that and tracking in the early stages of education, the average German freshman is able to do college work and thus graduate.
Free college tuition can only work if you actually have standards. However in America implement io rigorous standards will invariably lead to racial and class gaps. A big no-no for the American Left.
Free college tuition can only work if you actually have standards. However in America implement io rigorous standards will invariably lead to racial and class gaps. A big no-no for the American Left.
1
" community college is already free for most poor and working-class students who qualify for Pell grants and other aid. " This form of free is not really free. If the one way to get free is to fill out forms, more or less complicated, and wait back to hear if one qualifies. It exposes an individual to operational mistakes, by himself or herself or by the bureaucrats on the other side. If the U.S. really wants the benefits of free, it will do so by, you know, making community colleges free. Simplicity is important.
52
Students' needs are met via Student Activities fees, a part of the tuition for school. If more students voice their needs to their respective Student Government, they would be able to reach their goals and thrive academically.
1
Relying upon Student Activities Fees is not the answer, Fernando. We have to look at community colleges the way we looked at public high schools for years, because in terms of acquiring skills and becoming comfortable navigating modern society, high school no longer is enough.
There can be no tuition. If the student needs financial assistance for housing and living expenses, that assistance must be readily available by simply notifying the admissions office, which will quickly verify need. If the student was permitted to graduate high school with below-standard skills in the three R’s, remedial courses must be provided automatically at the outset.
No loans. No cumbersome application process. Mentoring provided without cost and without waiting for the student to request it. Job placement services provided in final year – hopefully in partnership with employers in the region.
This is not a pie-in-the-sky wish list. It’s doable, and it will begin paying dividends for each community and for the nation within a month after each student graduates.
There can be no tuition. If the student needs financial assistance for housing and living expenses, that assistance must be readily available by simply notifying the admissions office, which will quickly verify need. If the student was permitted to graduate high school with below-standard skills in the three R’s, remedial courses must be provided automatically at the outset.
No loans. No cumbersome application process. Mentoring provided without cost and without waiting for the student to request it. Job placement services provided in final year – hopefully in partnership with employers in the region.
This is not a pie-in-the-sky wish list. It’s doable, and it will begin paying dividends for each community and for the nation within a month after each student graduates.
David, read Charles Blow's article about how much it costs poor students to attend college these days. Unlike your article, he actually backs his up with facts and figures. The truth is that a large percentage of middle class students leave college with student loan debts that take them years to pay off. They are like the indentured servants of the old days who worked for seven years to pay off their passages to America. Fifty years ago, when this country was friendlier to the middle class, in-state students in California attended universities tuition free, and in Texas, where I live, the cost was $50 a semester for a full-time (12-17 hours) load. If students could attend community colleges for the first two years tuition-free, they then would need to worry about tuition for only their upper-class years and have much smaller loans to pay off. Your plan is not only wrong-headed, it is cruel for people who want only to better their lives and strengthen our country in the process.
209
I also grew up in TX. While Tuition was indeed $50 a semester when I enrolled at UT law school in the fall of 1964, other fees usually added $60 or so. Not sure what $110/semester would be today but it would not be free. When you give something away, it's worth what you get. You need some kind of minimum charge..perhaps rebated each semester for those who need the help even at that level.
Charles Blow cherry picks data to such an extent that his columns should be labeled "fiction". I can't believe that anyone with critical analysis skills takes them seriously.
and your facts are?
David is 100% spot on. Obama's politics will cause suffering and opposition to this ill advised proposal will be greatly misunderstood by the uninformed masses.
4
Perhaps it would be well measured instead, if we became Enlightened Readers.
2
I agree with Mr. Brooks here. Also, there's no need to chastise him for what the Republican Party might do to this (or Obama's) proposal. Last I checked, David Brooks isn't a member of Congress and the views he puts forward are the sort of moderate-right views that we should all wish Republicans in Congress would support.
8
Mr. Brooks makes not unreasonable suggestions: offer help with living expenses, guidance counseling, remedial ed, and child care. Strengthen the environment *around* students. Excellent ideas. Of course, as several other commenters have said, this kind of amounts to reforming society -- which the GOP will never let happen as long as it has power. But while we're on the subject, why not aim to provide free tuition *and* do all the things Brooks suggests? Why should this be either/or? A big goal, but then, any good thing is a big goal with the GOP in place. As a society we could very easily afford to do all of these things, and it would pay back manyfold over the next couple of decades (think of the GI Bill.) Cut the military budget, make education affordable, *and* help students graduate. I can totally get behind that.
85
Who will be accountable, the student, the politicians, the k-12 schools? You could start by charging the high school for the remedial costs for every student they graduate that must take those courses in a community college. If you produce 'stupid', you pay for stupid.
Why should this be either/or?
--------------------
Laugh. Because either/or = neither.
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Laugh. Because either/or = neither.
3
"Congress should take the proposal, scrap it and rededicate the money toward programs that will actually boost completion…"
And why "should" Republicans do that? How is it in Republican interests to boost the advancement of lower economic class citizens (with a disproportionate number of minorities) into colleges that are notorious for liberal perspectives that conservatives bitterly complain about?
Conservative ideology informs us that it would be wiser to take the $60 billion and give the top .0001% a tax break that will somehow trickle down like upon the ungrateful heads of the working class?
"Conservative Compassion" GW called it. That is to say, conserve your compassion because there really isn't enough to go around.
And why "should" Republicans do that? How is it in Republican interests to boost the advancement of lower economic class citizens (with a disproportionate number of minorities) into colleges that are notorious for liberal perspectives that conservatives bitterly complain about?
Conservative ideology informs us that it would be wiser to take the $60 billion and give the top .0001% a tax break that will somehow trickle down like upon the ungrateful heads of the working class?
"Conservative Compassion" GW called it. That is to say, conserve your compassion because there really isn't enough to go around.
103
But why do wealthy African Americans sent heir children to private school and less wealthy African Americans are trying to get their children in charter schools in NYC? The Conservatives don't run the NYC school system. And many liberals don't like school choice or really care about minority education, they simply want to fight with Conservatives, using African Americans as cannon fodder.
4
Yes, let's not bother with free community college. After all, people drop out, so why do anything about one of the biggest reasons for why people drop out?
Might as well just get rid of free high school and elementary while we're at it. The people who deserve to learn how to read will do so.
Isn't that the conservative way?
Might as well just get rid of free high school and elementary while we're at it. The people who deserve to learn how to read will do so.
Isn't that the conservative way?
139
I grow disillusioned with the knee jerk liberalism found so often in the NYT comments sections. To summarize Brooks' article:
1. Most of the additional tuition subsidies would go to middle class kids who really don't need the money.
2. The real problem with community college is that 2/3 to 4/5 drop out before graduating. We should be focusing on providing guidance and services to reduce that drop out rate, particularly among the students who are already attending free, but are highly unlikely today to finish.
There isn't anything remotely Republican about Brooks' proposal, but commenters attack him because he's a token right-winger for the NYT. Do you ever listen to yourself being so foolish?
1. Most of the additional tuition subsidies would go to middle class kids who really don't need the money.
2. The real problem with community college is that 2/3 to 4/5 drop out before graduating. We should be focusing on providing guidance and services to reduce that drop out rate, particularly among the students who are already attending free, but are highly unlikely today to finish.
There isn't anything remotely Republican about Brooks' proposal, but commenters attack him because he's a token right-winger for the NYT. Do you ever listen to yourself being so foolish?
14
Let us skip the political party affiliation and start asking questions of our young ones who are walking the streets of reality.
3
Tom I get really tired of the knee-jerk conservative responses to liberal comments. While on the other hand it is a contradiction in terms to 'grow disillusioned' with a reaction that by definition ("knee jerk") was the same thing happening over & over, & that you had never liked ("liberalism") from the beginning. In other words, you're lying about being disillusioned, to distract from your own knee-jerk conservatism.
Several commenters have noted what everyone reading must recognize instantly: that most people don't go to CC for a degree! Most people go for a few courses, to get specific training -- certification or what have you. This is common knowledge, which means Brooks knows it perfectly well, too. So the 'drop out rate' he cites is pure BS.
2) Even more commenters have noted that Brooks ideas to 'really' help the poor, as opposed to the supposedly ideological instinct to just give out money, is to give out money(!) forvarious social services to induce more students to graduate. The sort of social services which knee-jerk conservatives scream about the poor not deserving because it's 'other peoples' money' and the poor need to have more 'personal responsibility'. And bills for which congressional Republicans have been shouting down for years. Decades. So for a conservative to now preach social services as being opposite to liberal ideology is the purest, smelliest hypocrisy.
Pointing it out is not knee-jerk or remotely foolish, but simple honesty.
Several commenters have noted what everyone reading must recognize instantly: that most people don't go to CC for a degree! Most people go for a few courses, to get specific training -- certification or what have you. This is common knowledge, which means Brooks knows it perfectly well, too. So the 'drop out rate' he cites is pure BS.
2) Even more commenters have noted that Brooks ideas to 'really' help the poor, as opposed to the supposedly ideological instinct to just give out money, is to give out money(!) forvarious social services to induce more students to graduate. The sort of social services which knee-jerk conservatives scream about the poor not deserving because it's 'other peoples' money' and the poor need to have more 'personal responsibility'. And bills for which congressional Republicans have been shouting down for years. Decades. So for a conservative to now preach social services as being opposite to liberal ideology is the purest, smelliest hypocrisy.
Pointing it out is not knee-jerk or remotely foolish, but simple honesty.
What's really great is that Obama wants to fund his community college proposal by eliminating the “trust-fund loophole,” a provision governing inherited assets that shields hundreds of billions of dollars from taxation each year. He also wants to increase the top capital-gains tax rate, to 28 percent from 23.8 percent, for couples with incomes above $500,000 annually.
Finally we're back to the tax rates we had under Reagan, and if it was good enough for Reagan, it must be good enough for all the Republicans, right?
Finally we're back to the tax rates we had under Reagan, and if it was good enough for Reagan, it must be good enough for all the Republicans, right?
36
At first I thought that a community college for free was a great idea until I learned this small print detail - for those who keep at least a 2.5 GPA.
If you can't maintain a GPA well above 3.0 at a community college, it means you're either brain dead or lazy as a hibernating bear. In either case you have no business to be in college at all.
Another $60 bln of the taxpayer well-earned money wasted.
If you can't maintain a GPA well above 3.0 at a community college, it means you're either brain dead or lazy as a hibernating bear. In either case you have no business to be in college at all.
Another $60 bln of the taxpayer well-earned money wasted.
4
"If you can't maintain a GPA well above 3.0 at a community college, it means you're either brain dead or lazy as a hibernating bear."
You seem to be operating under the assumption that community college courses have lower academic standards than four-year colleges do. I have been a community college faculty member for nearly thirty years and can assure you that such is not the case. Community college faculty focus on meeting students where they are and helping them get where they need to be. For decades now, our students who transfer to the state's universities have maintained higher average GPAs than students who start at the larger, more expensive schools (where their first-year courses are all too often taught by inexperienced grad students).
You seem to be operating under the assumption that community college courses have lower academic standards than four-year colleges do. I have been a community college faculty member for nearly thirty years and can assure you that such is not the case. Community college faculty focus on meeting students where they are and helping them get where they need to be. For decades now, our students who transfer to the state's universities have maintained higher average GPAs than students who start at the larger, more expensive schools (where their first-year courses are all too often taught by inexperienced grad students).
6
Even if you are struggling with a poor secondary education, work a lot of part-time hours, have a child to care for? Meet the real world.
5
Grading is ridiculously lax in our university and more so in community colleges. I guess we're still locked into the failed "do whatever you have to do just don't hurt our students' little feelings" strategy.
If you don't maintain a GPA above 3.0 it means either of 2 things: a) you're an exceptionally bright student who doesn't have to worry about the grades and will be OK regardless, or much more likely b) you're hardly making it getting a very poor quality education and college is probably not your thing yet (or already).
If you don't maintain a GPA above 3.0 it means either of 2 things: a) you're an exceptionally bright student who doesn't have to worry about the grades and will be OK regardless, or much more likely b) you're hardly making it getting a very poor quality education and college is probably not your thing yet (or already).
1
There are enough college students already. Half the jobs in the country don't require algebra. Use the money to improve high school education so people can write and make a budget. Also, have bright high school kids help their classmates instead of taking college courses to get away from them.
3
How does one compel the bright students to help their less talented peers? Should one compel them to avoid college courses to bring up the rear? What a recipe for mediocrity!
4
"decent grades"?
A 2.5 GPA does not constitute "decent grades."
A 2.5 GPA denotes an inability to benefit from higher education.
A 2.5 GPA does not constitute "decent grades."
A 2.5 GPA denotes an inability to benefit from higher education.
2
I don't know that providing financial assistance to students enrolling with a community college needs to be an either or program. Much of what you propose Mr. Brooks could be quite helpful for many students - ongoing counselor support, book costs, child care, transportation, etc - and certainly many would appreciate free tuition. I imagine the community colleges would appreciate knowing they will be paid. I suspect many dropouts don't pay which hurts the school and the student's credit rating. Perhaps a more comprehensive program will cost $100 billion over ten years. As you indicate making sure more graduate from the communty college is essential. Adequate funding for a program that promotes graduation with minimal debt would be wonderful for student and society.
64
Down with for-profit "educational" institutions. Any student loans or tuition should be paid to bona fide community colleges and universities. I am not interested in subsidizing businesses that purport to provide a good education.
OK David, let's see you get any of your GOP pals to sign up for Human Capital 2.0. Wanna bet on that? It is way too "touchy-feel-y" for them. I also question why we have to choose between your ideas and Obama's. Why can't we do both? Because we can't afford it? Baloney. Because one major political party doesn't want to afford it is the answer. And we know which one that is don't we?
29
The Republican claims that Obama is neglecting graduation rates ignore the fact, that the Obama administration is pressuring institutions to improve their graduation rates and the job status of their graduates already. They have announced that institutions that don't do a good job in these areas will be ineligible for the student loan program and the rules have been released. In addition the Obama administration is preparing a college score card to assist students in figuring out what college is best for them.
This may not be enough to fix the problem, but it is a start.
If Republicans propose funding for better counselling for kids and support for adult students including child care subsidies as alternatives, it will be welcomed. Meanwhile student debt is one of the number one problems that young graduates have. Republicans have blocked Elizabeth Warrens bill to facilitate a reduction in interest rates which are destroying the lives of so many young people.
This may not be enough to fix the problem, but it is a start.
If Republicans propose funding for better counselling for kids and support for adult students including child care subsidies as alternatives, it will be welcomed. Meanwhile student debt is one of the number one problems that young graduates have. Republicans have blocked Elizabeth Warrens bill to facilitate a reduction in interest rates which are destroying the lives of so many young people.
25
Brooks seems to agree that we should invest in public education, but he is too slippery come right out and say so, for fear of offending conservative orthodoxy. Without much more investment in public education – instead of, say, military hardware – the type of communitarian society that Brooks usually pines for will recede further out of reach.
18
Someone needs to alert the editor that this column, obviously written by one of the more libera Times columnists, (maybe Nicholas Kristof?) has been mislabeled as having been written by Mr. Brooks. Certainly, Brooks is not your typical conservative, but gosh, this article strays way to the left of Obama.
Or is it just that the "center" has moved so far to the right that Brooks' rational ideas just appear to be bleeding heart liberal in comparison?
Or is it just that the "center" has moved so far to the right that Brooks' rational ideas just appear to be bleeding heart liberal in comparison?
9
"The problem is that getting students to enroll is neither hard nor important. The important task is to help students graduate. Community college drop out rates now hover somewhere between 66 percent and 80 percent."
Maybe because tuition costs, even for community college, are out of control these days. Free tuition will create a great incentive for young folks and even older folks alike to try and achieve that oh-so-fabled myth we like to call The American (pipe)Dream.
What David Brooks understands is that onerous student loan debts and bankers mishandling our economy has ruined the employment prospects for millions of my peers, and we won't forget whose mess this is. The President is doing the right thing not only by allowing many to take part in a free education, but also signaling that education and healthcare are the priorities in this country---not an overly bloated defense budget like Brooksy would prefer.
Maybe because tuition costs, even for community college, are out of control these days. Free tuition will create a great incentive for young folks and even older folks alike to try and achieve that oh-so-fabled myth we like to call The American (pipe)Dream.
What David Brooks understands is that onerous student loan debts and bankers mishandling our economy has ruined the employment prospects for millions of my peers, and we won't forget whose mess this is. The President is doing the right thing not only by allowing many to take part in a free education, but also signaling that education and healthcare are the priorities in this country---not an overly bloated defense budget like Brooksy would prefer.
13
This may not be the time to be snarky, but to unite as a Nation in backing our President and his educational goals, in an act of good faith for our future generation.
1
Social mobility is problematic. If education is an escape from jobs that do not pay a living wage, and more people get educated, then they should in theory escape from those jobs to better ones. But who then gets these jobs?
Perhaps as people move up the ladder, the bottom levels somehow shrink. Maybe fast food establishments will disappear because they cannot hold workers, or be forced by labor shortages to pay living wages. But if the worst jobs are still around, they will be occupied by losers whose mental or moral defects doom them to a hardscrabble life, or by overqualified people who cannot find better jobs.
A sturdy ladder out of the cellar is nice, but a habitable cellar is even nicer. Since there is not much room at the top of the ladder, we should be happy that some people are not interested in trying to climb to the top, but just high enough to get some sunlight and fresh air for themselves and their families.
Perhaps as people move up the ladder, the bottom levels somehow shrink. Maybe fast food establishments will disappear because they cannot hold workers, or be forced by labor shortages to pay living wages. But if the worst jobs are still around, they will be occupied by losers whose mental or moral defects doom them to a hardscrabble life, or by overqualified people who cannot find better jobs.
A sturdy ladder out of the cellar is nice, but a habitable cellar is even nicer. Since there is not much room at the top of the ladder, we should be happy that some people are not interested in trying to climb to the top, but just high enough to get some sunlight and fresh air for themselves and their families.
7
Hello, David Brooks. I am an actual Community College Graduate (New York City College of Technology, Hotel and Restaurant Management, class of 1984)
Even then, there were plenty of older students. My classmates included a number of NYPD officers, both active and retired. Older women returning to the work force, and an Italian friend who worked in the Yiddish Theatre in Brooklyn, and now is one of our most heralded graduates.
You could not be more wrong about "the 1970s liberal orthodoxy." The 1970s were the era when community college (and ALL of City University of New York) and many state universities, STOPPED being tuition free. Thank your party's icon Ronald Reagan who, as Governor of California in the 1960s, started the trend when he killed free tuition in the University of California system.
The rest is pure red herring. The Republicant Congre$$ is already on record as howling like colicky babies about the cost of THIS initiative. And you propose a slew of social assistance programs to facilitate graduation? I will bet my house against yours that you don't have a single program that can get ANY support from the Republicant Congre$$. And if you were serious, you'd *already* be calling out the Republicant Congrre$$ for their already stated opposition. This column could not possibly be more disingenuous.
Even then, there were plenty of older students. My classmates included a number of NYPD officers, both active and retired. Older women returning to the work force, and an Italian friend who worked in the Yiddish Theatre in Brooklyn, and now is one of our most heralded graduates.
You could not be more wrong about "the 1970s liberal orthodoxy." The 1970s were the era when community college (and ALL of City University of New York) and many state universities, STOPPED being tuition free. Thank your party's icon Ronald Reagan who, as Governor of California in the 1960s, started the trend when he killed free tuition in the University of California system.
The rest is pure red herring. The Republicant Congre$$ is already on record as howling like colicky babies about the cost of THIS initiative. And you propose a slew of social assistance programs to facilitate graduation? I will bet my house against yours that you don't have a single program that can get ANY support from the Republicant Congre$$. And if you were serious, you'd *already* be calling out the Republicant Congrre$$ for their already stated opposition. This column could not possibly be more disingenuous.
425
And you actually think the presidents's proposal will garner any support from congress? Why is it that anything mr. Obama thinks up is the best and only solution? Hmm, I was beginning to believe that liberals were all about encouraging and participating in civil and constructive dialogue but I'll now dispel with that belief.
1
When it comes to the poor, Mr. Brooks is generally shameless in his positions. This one however is one of his worst.
4
Paul....thank you , your post should have been a Times pick , it had personal experience, facts, and history. It's hard to pick out which of Brooks columns is the most disingenuous--they are all prize winners. Comments have the job of telling the truth. For the Times I suppose this performs a function.
The gop congress is on record and so is Brooks.
The gop congress is on record and so is Brooks.
3
The big cost of community college is the opportunity cost of not working. Thus, in 2006 community colleges weren't very full because there were lots of jobs. By 2010, they were full because there weren't jobs.
9
A better idea would be to toss out the entire focus on "college" and "bachelor's degree" as magic incantations which somehow confer competency. As they have become indispensable musts, so commensurately have they become meaningless, conferred on more and more candidates ever less qualified in "disciplines" ever more dubious ("recreation studies", anyone?. Better to make secondary school more rigorous so that its successful completion genuinely signifies the ability to speak, read and write the English language and do routine arithmetic correctly and competently. Then, if we ever succeed at that, let's worry about sending more folks to college.
7
Let's see: The ACA can't work because its model is from a wealthy blue state and this tuition grant can't work because it is similar to a program in a (relatively) poor red state (my state)? My community does have an excellent Community College that does have very good child care - however that care runs about $500/month. Brooks, as usual, is partly right.
9
Mr. Brooks, never let perfect be the enemy of the good.
12
I thank Mr. Brooks for a well thought out argument. Support services are indeed lacking for those seeking an education in America, not only on the Community College level but in the high school years as well. It's too bad that the new Congress is most likely to take the "no free lunch" approach towards advancing higher education in this session.
Thank you Mr. Brooks
Rob-Bob
Thank you Mr. Brooks
Rob-Bob
4
You know, back in the bad old pre-Ronald Reagan days , state and federal governments paid up to 80% of tuition and the other 20% was little enough to actually allow students to work their way through college.
Maybe the answer is to go back to the good old days when this country recognized that giving its citizens a good education benefited everyone.
Maybe the answer is to go back to the good old days when this country recognized that giving its citizens a good education benefited everyone.
21
David Brooks has some good ideas, but they don't invalidate the desirability of free tuition in community colleges, or in all public colleges and universities for that matter. Many students drop out now because they run out of money to continue, or their Pell grants are not renewed. Brooks is right to say that additional help is needed by many students in the form of counseling, room and board (although many students live at home), and costs of textbooks and supplies. But every bit helps, and the result of the President's free tuition plan, if enacted, would probably be more students both starting and finishing community college.
186
"Free" means that the primary beneficiaries of this proposed tuition free community college plan will not directly pay. But nothing is free. That is why our government collects taxes, penalties and fees. And decides when, where and how to spend our money.
To put the proposed $ 60 billion spent on community college education over 10 years or $ 6 billion a year in perspective start with the fact that America spent $ 640 billion on it's military in 2013. One Ford Class Aircraft Carrier costs $ 13 billion. America spends about $550 billion each year on public school K-12 education. And America currently spends about $63 billion each year on public college and university education.
We the American people elected and selected our democratic republic representatives to bring us to this time and place in education and defense and security.
To put the proposed $ 60 billion spent on community college education over 10 years or $ 6 billion a year in perspective start with the fact that America spent $ 640 billion on it's military in 2013. One Ford Class Aircraft Carrier costs $ 13 billion. America spends about $550 billion each year on public school K-12 education. And America currently spends about $63 billion each year on public college and university education.
We the American people elected and selected our democratic republic representatives to bring us to this time and place in education and defense and security.
1
Doesn't the term 'free' just have a wonderful ring to it?
In the liberal world, there is no need for cost/benefit, no need for careful planning, no need for realistic choices, and no need for personal responsibility.
I help to coordinate a Family Self Sufficiency program near Ashland. I work with college students and potential college students every day. Effective life planning and choices have the greatest influence on predicting their successes. This idea that many students drop out because they run out of money is a perfect example of an education choice that was poorly planned to begin with.
Is your future going to play out like a roll of the dice? Or, are you going to make some well-calculated choices that have a high degree of likelihood of leading you to a well-paying career IF you focus your energies and talents while living off the government programs? Then, and only then, does the cost/benefit make sense, for the individual and the government program(s).
In the liberal world, there is no need for cost/benefit, no need for careful planning, no need for realistic choices, and no need for personal responsibility.
I help to coordinate a Family Self Sufficiency program near Ashland. I work with college students and potential college students every day. Effective life planning and choices have the greatest influence on predicting their successes. This idea that many students drop out because they run out of money is a perfect example of an education choice that was poorly planned to begin with.
Is your future going to play out like a roll of the dice? Or, are you going to make some well-calculated choices that have a high degree of likelihood of leading you to a well-paying career IF you focus your energies and talents while living off the government programs? Then, and only then, does the cost/benefit make sense, for the individual and the government program(s).
1
As a former teacher and Community College President I learned how very important Community Colleges can be to one's life. I also saw many students (like the tulip bulb) who had not opened yet...a couple years in the job market or the Army usually had an amazing effect on speeding up the process.Many responders to the Brooks article seemed to think that Community Colleges did not offer "vocational/technical...they are wrong. Others said they recalled many folks in the past who did quite well without having any post high school education...that was then this is now...the nature of the work environment has drastically changed! There probably is not any magic wand to getting more people into and out of Community Colleges. Perhaps a dose of better pre-college education, more faculty and adminisrators at all levels of Education who are cognizant of the forces contributing to the high drop out rate, and are willing and able to do something about it.... and finally,the continuation of an economy that provides outstanding and prolific opportunities in Society, might prove beneficial.
1
I'm still waiting for the Brooks column on all the Republican bills that have been introduced to help poor people get a college education.
38
Dave, the key to getting a good college education is having a good high school education. Until we fix our public schools, poor people will continue to suffer low rates of college graduation.
3
Mr. Brooks:
I think the fact that poor people need money is self evident, not orthodoxy. The alternative would proffer poverty as a deserved condition. What are the criteria for that belief system? Education is the generally accepted way of improving one's lot in life. But, it seems that you are proposing much more than financial tuition aid. I welcome discussion of the proposals you put forth here, but, have to say your proposals seem to have a lot in common with "70's liberal orthodoxy".
I think the fact that poor people need money is self evident, not orthodoxy. The alternative would proffer poverty as a deserved condition. What are the criteria for that belief system? Education is the generally accepted way of improving one's lot in life. But, it seems that you are proposing much more than financial tuition aid. I welcome discussion of the proposals you put forth here, but, have to say your proposals seem to have a lot in common with "70's liberal orthodoxy".
7
Overall, these are some great liberal policy ideas. The idea of providing a wide variety of community services and resources is proven to help at every level of education. I'm sure Obama would sign a bill that not only provides free tuition but a wide array of support as well.
26
Here's an idea: let's provide free tuition PLUS all that other stuff. If America can afford to spend $4 trillion on the Iraq and Afghanistan wars, surely we can afford this.
127
Since we really couldn't afford either, let's skip what we can.
As soon as the GOPers in Congress increase military spending or start another war, I'm sure your concern will disappear. When it comes to disbursing the taxpayers' money, Republicans are the worst of hypocrites.
4
The tuition piece is locked in 1970s liberal orthodoxy?
Brooks does not say how to solve the child care problem which extends beyond students in community college. It's expensive and the workers are
paid ~minimum wage.
"Students often have to take on full-time or near-full-time jobs to cover the costs."
Yes, and because of the lack of education they usually have to take minimum wage jobs. Would Brooks agree that we have to raise minimum wage to at least $10.10/hr to pay for the other expenses?
I don't think so.
Brooks has defined some of the problems surrounding student enrollment in community colleges, but, like most conservatives, he does not offer a specific plan - just criticism of the president's idea.
Brooks does not say how to solve the child care problem which extends beyond students in community college. It's expensive and the workers are
paid ~minimum wage.
"Students often have to take on full-time or near-full-time jobs to cover the costs."
Yes, and because of the lack of education they usually have to take minimum wage jobs. Would Brooks agree that we have to raise minimum wage to at least $10.10/hr to pay for the other expenses?
I don't think so.
Brooks has defined some of the problems surrounding student enrollment in community colleges, but, like most conservatives, he does not offer a specific plan - just criticism of the president's idea.
30
Hmmm, there's something fishy about this column.
Brooks praises Obama for his community college idea, but then helpfully explains to us liberals with our liberal orthodoxy why we fail the poor. He brings up Pell grants, child care, subsidizing counselors, housing, transportation, etc., you know, all the things Republicans constantly champion and that the liberal Democrats block or stop through acts like sequestration.
David, you know your readers read The NYTimes, right? We know that Republicans would never allow any of these ideas to be put in place from the party that not only doesn't want to increase the safety net, but instead are doing everything in their power to destroy what's left of Social Security, Medicare, unemployment insurance and now the ACA.
With the numbers released today about the worldwide growing gap between the 1% and everyone else, it's becoming more and more apparent that your party is only interested in keeping the status quo for that 1%. Obama is smart to highlight that point by to proposing to make community college free.
It's going to be fun watching Republicans falling over themselves in trying to explain to the voters why educating people is a bad idea. WIth this idea, restoring relations with Cuba, the agreement with the Chinese on cutting carbon, this lame duck Obama is making me smile, a lot. It sure is fun to see Republicans squirm, especially in response to liberal ideas.
Brooks praises Obama for his community college idea, but then helpfully explains to us liberals with our liberal orthodoxy why we fail the poor. He brings up Pell grants, child care, subsidizing counselors, housing, transportation, etc., you know, all the things Republicans constantly champion and that the liberal Democrats block or stop through acts like sequestration.
David, you know your readers read The NYTimes, right? We know that Republicans would never allow any of these ideas to be put in place from the party that not only doesn't want to increase the safety net, but instead are doing everything in their power to destroy what's left of Social Security, Medicare, unemployment insurance and now the ACA.
With the numbers released today about the worldwide growing gap between the 1% and everyone else, it's becoming more and more apparent that your party is only interested in keeping the status quo for that 1%. Obama is smart to highlight that point by to proposing to make community college free.
It's going to be fun watching Republicans falling over themselves in trying to explain to the voters why educating people is a bad idea. WIth this idea, restoring relations with Cuba, the agreement with the Chinese on cutting carbon, this lame duck Obama is making me smile, a lot. It sure is fun to see Republicans squirm, especially in response to liberal ideas.
161
Totally agree. Obama is ahead of them again. The republican s sure are quiet for a change.
2
Community colleges are paid for with state and local taxes (as well as tuition and fees) and are the most direct competitors to the for-profit online schools that survive mainly from students' government loans, spend a high percentage of their money on advertising and marketing, and are beloved by hedge fund managers for their robust financial outlooks.
Subsidizing government competition with the private sector is hardly likely to pass this Congress.
Subsidizing government competition with the private sector is hardly likely to pass this Congress.
11
Which is why Obama is willing to get behind it. Why didn't he think of this when there was a Democratic majority? Because his sponsors would not have approved.
1
66 to 80% dropout rate. Many students take three to five technical courses and leave. That’s all they want to start their technical career. They’re not dropouts. The courses they took, for the time being, made them independent with a livable wage.
Middle class parents are drained of savings due to stagnant and declining wages. Their children need this help, too, to avoid exploitative debt and to make them part of a globally competitive workforce.
Remediation works. It’s also a two-part problem. K-12 system deficiencies must be corrected. The second problem is to prepare current students. Did the states stop funding remediation because studies showed it ineffective or more likely, because of meat-axe, Republican budget cuts?
Textbook costs are outrageous. Often a $100 textbook on a topic, in non-textbook form, sells for $39 in a retail bookstore. Even more outrageous are textbooks produced on DVDs without price decline. It’s price gouging that needs fixing.
Yes, child care is needed, but it’s needed nationally for all working families, as found in European countries, not just for community colleges.
Our nation can afford a piddling $6 billion per year as part of staffing a competitive global work force. We can either pay, as a nationwide community, to teach our citizens "how to fish" or we can endure the expense of feeding, clothing, and housing them for the remainder of their lives and become a Yemen or Sudan.
Middle class parents are drained of savings due to stagnant and declining wages. Their children need this help, too, to avoid exploitative debt and to make them part of a globally competitive workforce.
Remediation works. It’s also a two-part problem. K-12 system deficiencies must be corrected. The second problem is to prepare current students. Did the states stop funding remediation because studies showed it ineffective or more likely, because of meat-axe, Republican budget cuts?
Textbook costs are outrageous. Often a $100 textbook on a topic, in non-textbook form, sells for $39 in a retail bookstore. Even more outrageous are textbooks produced on DVDs without price decline. It’s price gouging that needs fixing.
Yes, child care is needed, but it’s needed nationally for all working families, as found in European countries, not just for community colleges.
Our nation can afford a piddling $6 billion per year as part of staffing a competitive global work force. We can either pay, as a nationwide community, to teach our citizens "how to fish" or we can endure the expense of feeding, clothing, and housing them for the remainder of their lives and become a Yemen or Sudan.
71
I took a history course, just for fun. My wife took English as a foreign language. Community Colleges also do Adult Education in that form, not for degrees. We never wanted degrees, but we are not really "drop outs." Still, in the statistics, we started but left without degrees.
A young man I helped did a year there, then transfered to a four-year university. He didn't drop out either.
A young man I helped did a year there, then transfered to a four-year university. He didn't drop out either.
36
Here in California, public school students can attend their local community college for free, with the approval of their principal. The high schools in my area send AP students to take classes there. Many of the homeschoolers I knew also availed themselves of the community college option. They all register as students at the community college and are counted.
14
Yes -- an AA degree is not the single purpose or function of a community college. It can function as a stepping stone in many different ways. In my city, lots of high student students dual-enroll in the community college when they are in their last two years of high school. My homeschooled daughter is doing so as well. She will not complete an AA, but that does not mean she has not been well served by the college nor that she has "dropped out." She has gotten experience in how college works, taken classes that interest her and have opened up new possibilities for her eventual college major, figured out bureaucratic procedures, and learned to advocate for herself in through Disability Services. These are fantastic outcomes that cannot be measured through graduation rate alone.
4
Mr. Brooks is absolutely right that addressing the issue of living expenses - transportation, housing, textbooks, childcare, etc. - is critical when it comes to making community college work. But his critique of President Obama's plan fails because the plan does provide exactly the kind of help Mr. Brooks claims that it does not.
In particular, the funding under Obama's plan would be "first dollars in," which means that they would eliminate the cost of community college before other sources of financial aid - such as Pell Grants - would be counted. Such an approach would enable students to use those Pell Grants and other aid to pay for living expenses while they are in community college.
Another benefit of Obama's community college plan is that it should encourage students to enroll in such colleges - from which they can graduate with little to no debt - instead of in the for-profit "schools" that provide their students with tens of thousands per year of debt but little in the way of education or employment opportunities.
Could we do more to help middle class, working class, and poor students afford educational opportunities? Yes, we can and should. But Obama's plan is a good step in that direction and, not surprisingly, goes much further towards helping such students than anything today's GOP has ever proposed.
https://www.facebook.com/WinningProgressive
In particular, the funding under Obama's plan would be "first dollars in," which means that they would eliminate the cost of community college before other sources of financial aid - such as Pell Grants - would be counted. Such an approach would enable students to use those Pell Grants and other aid to pay for living expenses while they are in community college.
Another benefit of Obama's community college plan is that it should encourage students to enroll in such colleges - from which they can graduate with little to no debt - instead of in the for-profit "schools" that provide their students with tens of thousands per year of debt but little in the way of education or employment opportunities.
Could we do more to help middle class, working class, and poor students afford educational opportunities? Yes, we can and should. But Obama's plan is a good step in that direction and, not surprisingly, goes much further towards helping such students than anything today's GOP has ever proposed.
https://www.facebook.com/WinningProgressive
268
It's so easy to be generous with other people's money.
1
I think this whole debate is ridiculous. Now that the Rs are firmly in control of Congress our prevaricator-in-chief is seizing the opportunity to appear to be progressive without offending his sponsors by actually costing them anything. Long live the faux-progressive Ds! LOL but its not really that funny how they get away with their deceptions.
1
Prayer Flag,
Take your money to a failed state.
Without the US government "your" money is worth zilch.
Take your money to a failed state.
Without the US government "your" money is worth zilch.
6
"The problem is that getting students to enroll is neither hard nor important. The important task is to help students graduate. Community college drop out rates now hover somewhere between 66 percent and 80 percent."
Yes, and many drop out because they can't afford it.
There is a financial aid office at our community college, and it has long lines, and those turned down then drop out. Actually, those turned down are disenrolled for nonpayment.
A counselor at our local community college told me disenrollment for failure to secure financial aid for tuition is their single biggest problem. This was a long conversation in the financial aid office with the counselor about financial aid for someone I was helping to attend, and the problems of finishing, not just a casual conversation.
So Mr. Brooks, if you really want them to finish, don't cut off their financial aid, or else make it free.
Yes, and many drop out because they can't afford it.
There is a financial aid office at our community college, and it has long lines, and those turned down then drop out. Actually, those turned down are disenrolled for nonpayment.
A counselor at our local community college told me disenrollment for failure to secure financial aid for tuition is their single biggest problem. This was a long conversation in the financial aid office with the counselor about financial aid for someone I was helping to attend, and the problems of finishing, not just a casual conversation.
So Mr. Brooks, if you really want them to finish, don't cut off their financial aid, or else make it free.
406
But isn't part of the point of the column that everyone who needs one should have someone who is "helping [them] to attend"? By definition, the student you are helping is having some of their needs met, by you. What about others?
We could also make a both/and critique, and disagree with the reasoning in the column about whether affordability is such a problem and argue in favor of helping people both matriculate (pay) and graduate (stay through until graduation). The drop-out rate over the issues outlined in the column, from what I've personally observed, are very real. To the extent that the column and the comments see the issue as either/or, I think we are stuck in a mindset, on both sides, that seeks too much emotional satisfaction (in putting down the other side) and not enough dispassionate problem solving. It's part of why I think we won't make much progress as a group until we each make more progress individually on our interior development. I feel as if I am watching a ping-pong match most of the time, instead of watching the community make stone soup.
We could also make a both/and critique, and disagree with the reasoning in the column about whether affordability is such a problem and argue in favor of helping people both matriculate (pay) and graduate (stay through until graduation). The drop-out rate over the issues outlined in the column, from what I've personally observed, are very real. To the extent that the column and the comments see the issue as either/or, I think we are stuck in a mindset, on both sides, that seeks too much emotional satisfaction (in putting down the other side) and not enough dispassionate problem solving. It's part of why I think we won't make much progress as a group until we each make more progress individually on our interior development. I feel as if I am watching a ping-pong match most of the time, instead of watching the community make stone soup.
2
I liked an article I read comparing community college to university - it said that even if all the top 25 US universities provided all their places for free, it would still only be like 200k students - meanwhile current enrolments in US community colleges - something like 7.7 MILLION
and I just saw an article about US millionaires - most with education not beyond college degrees - universities a much smaller proportion.
So community college is a very important component of education for the population - but when student numbers are multiplied by government assistance - that's when the accountants start demanding cuts - but hey if you want a good society, some things are just worthwhile even if they don't show an immediate 'profit'.
and I just saw an article about US millionaires - most with education not beyond college degrees - universities a much smaller proportion.
So community college is a very important component of education for the population - but when student numbers are multiplied by government assistance - that's when the accountants start demanding cuts - but hey if you want a good society, some things are just worthwhile even if they don't show an immediate 'profit'.
4
Mr. Brooks: Your column effectively says, "You can't make community colleges more accessible unless you fix all the inequities in our society." Yes, lack of money for tuition isn't the only problem, but it's the easiest to fix.
The community colleges are the ones who get the money, right? If they get more students who are actually paying (even if it's government money), then they can figure out what would enhance the students' educations: more counselors, effective transition programs for those whose high schools didn't prepare them, on-site child care.
And "less than $1000" may seem very little to you, but to many families it's prohibitive.
Finally, you say you favor focusing "on the lived environment of actual students and create relationships and cushions to help them thrive." They do that in Scandinavia. Everyone gets child care, vacation days and sick days at work, full health coverage, excellent paid-for schools. Our society doesn't do these things: we say "equal opportunity." So let's at least get all willing students free tuition in community colleges. It's a start.
The community colleges are the ones who get the money, right? If they get more students who are actually paying (even if it's government money), then they can figure out what would enhance the students' educations: more counselors, effective transition programs for those whose high schools didn't prepare them, on-site child care.
And "less than $1000" may seem very little to you, but to many families it's prohibitive.
Finally, you say you favor focusing "on the lived environment of actual students and create relationships and cushions to help them thrive." They do that in Scandinavia. Everyone gets child care, vacation days and sick days at work, full health coverage, excellent paid-for schools. Our society doesn't do these things: we say "equal opportunity." So let's at least get all willing students free tuition in community colleges. It's a start.
324
Howard,
you conflate equal opportunity with a level playing field. These are different concepts. Equal opportunity means that the government treats everyone equally, which has been violated for half a century by the affirmative action.
A level playing field is a discriminatory practice, where success cannot be transferred to the next generation.
While having some merit, a level playing field does more harm that good. If I can't use my personal success to help my children get ahead of yours, I may be discouraged to try hard, and then competition goes down the drains.
Once competition's gone, the society is doomed to stagnation and decay, where everyone is equally miserable on a level playing field without winner and losers. Visit N. Korea or Venezuela to see what it looks like. The examples of Scandinavian countries is a red herring. Those countries depend on us for military protection, and they have been stagnating since the 70's.
you conflate equal opportunity with a level playing field. These are different concepts. Equal opportunity means that the government treats everyone equally, which has been violated for half a century by the affirmative action.
A level playing field is a discriminatory practice, where success cannot be transferred to the next generation.
While having some merit, a level playing field does more harm that good. If I can't use my personal success to help my children get ahead of yours, I may be discouraged to try hard, and then competition goes down the drains.
Once competition's gone, the society is doomed to stagnation and decay, where everyone is equally miserable on a level playing field without winner and losers. Visit N. Korea or Venezuela to see what it looks like. The examples of Scandinavian countries is a red herring. Those countries depend on us for military protection, and they have been stagnating since the 70's.
3
Al, the kind of competition you refer to is at the top echelons, where your spot could actually be mine based on my experience, education, ability and superior intelligence. ;-) Here, the issue is to help someone get into the ground floor to sustain him- or herself in this economic time. To say that your child would miss out on getting an opportunity for a ground-level education because mine gets that spot is inapt. I sure hope you really don't think our society's systemic divisions come down to either him or me.
2
"I sure hope you really don't think our society's systemic divisions come down to either him or me. "
Jennifer, it's not only about our society's division. "Either him or me," starts in the womb and goes past the grave bequethed to the descendants. The shape of that competition and the stakes, as well as strategies and intensity, may change, but it's always there.
My prefernce is for an optimal intensity, it helps progress.
Jennifer, it's not only about our society's division. "Either him or me," starts in the womb and goes past the grave bequethed to the descendants. The shape of that competition and the stakes, as well as strategies and intensity, may change, but it's always there.
My prefernce is for an optimal intensity, it helps progress.
1
The Human Capital 2.0 is also called the "Let's cancel the current plan, so we can put a plan that the republicans won't support anyway, into place". Why not give working stiffs a hand? The continued backsliding of wages isn't helping the declining middle class. If they can save a few bucks and educate their children
( the future of America) at the same time, that would be a good thing.
( the future of America) at the same time, that would be a good thing.
114
David Brooks kills the plan with praise
By raising the costs in new ways,
Which Repubs will delight
As they bid it good night,
As part of their "starve the beast" phase!
By raising the costs in new ways,
Which Repubs will delight
As they bid it good night,
As part of their "starve the beast" phase!
218
Mr. Brooks makes a lot of sense. I welcome an alternative opinion. But some of the other respondents hate to have their opinions challenged, so they attack Mr. Brooks personally. That is the said state of liberalism: they want to control how how everyone else thinks.
16
Because accusing "they" of wanting to control how everyone else thinks certainly isn't a personal attack.
10
How would attacking someone personally in a comment section plausibly result in controlling anyone? Why would it even indicate the desire to control? Wouldn't it simply indicate a dislike of Mr. Brooks and his opinion?
9
Funny, but I see no ad hominem attacks in the Comments section so far. Maybe you should look in the mirror when it comes to wanting to control how everyone else thinks!
15
This is how the cagey conservative kills a presidential initiative. First, he agrees that the goal is worthwhile. Then, he recommends that the proposal be scrapped because there are numerous other factors that must be addressed first to achieve the goal. The cagey conservative gives an alternate proposal. We'll have to address living expenses, subsidize counselors and mentors, provide remedial courses and focus on child care.
Discerning readers, who happen to live in the real world, will realize that the Republican Congress will not pass anything this president wants. They will also recognize that all the prerequisite services Mr. Brooks says we need are things that the social safety net should have been providing all along. But this is the same safety net has been attacked and shredded by conservatives.
Mr. Obama is well aware that Congress will have nothing to do with this call to raise taxes on the rich to help the poor attend community college. There's no power on earth that could get them to do that. But with the 2016 presidential race looming it's good to remind the poor and middle class voters that Republicans have no interest in educating the moochers and takers, or in providing them with mentors or in taking care of their dismal ragamuffin spawn.
That's pure Brooksian logic: Poor people don't need money. They need a host services that no Republican Congress will ever provide.
Discerning readers, who happen to live in the real world, will realize that the Republican Congress will not pass anything this president wants. They will also recognize that all the prerequisite services Mr. Brooks says we need are things that the social safety net should have been providing all along. But this is the same safety net has been attacked and shredded by conservatives.
Mr. Obama is well aware that Congress will have nothing to do with this call to raise taxes on the rich to help the poor attend community college. There's no power on earth that could get them to do that. But with the 2016 presidential race looming it's good to remind the poor and middle class voters that Republicans have no interest in educating the moochers and takers, or in providing them with mentors or in taking care of their dismal ragamuffin spawn.
That's pure Brooksian logic: Poor people don't need money. They need a host services that no Republican Congress will ever provide.
676
Don't forget... they need for-profit support to get through community college! Oy!
41
Maybe you missed the part where Brooks stated that "The Obama plan would largely be a subsidy for the middle- and upper-middle-class students who are now paying tuition and who could afford to pay it in the years ahead." Brooks wants to spend the same amount of money but target it at students who are flunking out of college, and these are the poor students already going to college for free.
Good intentions aren't enough. Nor should public policy be a game of liberals vs. conservatives. Unfortunately most voters and most politicians aren't mature enough to see this.
Good intentions aren't enough. Nor should public policy be a game of liberals vs. conservatives. Unfortunately most voters and most politicians aren't mature enough to see this.
4
Just as I was about to ask where is Gemli to put an end to some of this stuff and nonsense, you showed up to the relief of this American.
11
Anything Mr. Brooks can say and do to preserve the education-industrial complex...
Free community college for students who are deserving, middle class or not, is a fine idea. The middle class has shrunk and college has gotten so much more expensive. If those kids can make the grade, they should get their tuition covered. Moreover, I'd like to see free state schools tuition for any student who can maintain a 3.0 average or higher.
My daughter graduated from her community college last may. At 16, she was the youngest. The oldest graduate was 72. The vast majority of students were in their late teens.
Learning should be a lifelong thing. Older learners and the youngest should be encouraged to take classes and get a degree.
As for strengthening structures around schools, we desperately need to reform what we teach from pre-k through 12. In order to have better students who, in turn, will be better workers, we need to get back to focusing on the humanities and the arts from the early years on to 12th grade. The fact that we no longer do shows in the quality of workers employers are getting. Doug Belkin wrote a piece about that in the WSJ last week. I've spent the last 12 years educating, supporting, and observing students. Belkin's piece prompted me to write a blog post. Belkin's piece is linked and quoted.
http://www.rimaregas.com/2015/01/on-dougbelkin-test-finds-college-gradua...
Free community college for students who are deserving, middle class or not, is a fine idea. The middle class has shrunk and college has gotten so much more expensive. If those kids can make the grade, they should get their tuition covered. Moreover, I'd like to see free state schools tuition for any student who can maintain a 3.0 average or higher.
My daughter graduated from her community college last may. At 16, she was the youngest. The oldest graduate was 72. The vast majority of students were in their late teens.
Learning should be a lifelong thing. Older learners and the youngest should be encouraged to take classes and get a degree.
As for strengthening structures around schools, we desperately need to reform what we teach from pre-k through 12. In order to have better students who, in turn, will be better workers, we need to get back to focusing on the humanities and the arts from the early years on to 12th grade. The fact that we no longer do shows in the quality of workers employers are getting. Doug Belkin wrote a piece about that in the WSJ last week. I've spent the last 12 years educating, supporting, and observing students. Belkin's piece prompted me to write a blog post. Belkin's piece is linked and quoted.
http://www.rimaregas.com/2015/01/on-dougbelkin-test-finds-college-gradua...
37
We need to get back to focusing on the humanities and the arts?
I look around at fellow students, I don't see them needing 'remedial humanities'. They need remedial math, science and often basic grammar skills. Students are flunking out in introductory classes because they lack in these areas, and THAT is what we need to get back to focusing on.
I look around at fellow students, I don't see them needing 'remedial humanities'. They need remedial math, science and often basic grammar skills. Students are flunking out in introductory classes because they lack in these areas, and THAT is what we need to get back to focusing on.
7
While it is important to educate our children to communicate well, to focus on arts and the humanities at the expense of science and math is short sighted. Science and math skills are those that employers are most willing to pay for. And while it is possible to educate oneself in the arts and the humanities outside of formal education through reading, learning math and science rarely takes place outside of the classroom.
4
@College,
Reading comprehension and writing are part of the humanities!
@Tom
Without reading and writing, there is no STEM.
Reading comprehension and writing are part of the humanities!
@Tom
Without reading and writing, there is no STEM.
8
I really liked this until I got to the word "disorganized" (as in, "the difficulty of living in disorganized circumstances"). Then I got distracted. A lack of child care resources is about disorganized circumstances? How? If the resources are there but not accessed, then maybe I see how "disorganized" might apply, but if the resources don't exist, then what does "disorganized" have to do with it? Then I start wondering whether "disorganized" is a euphemism for something else, and now I'm fully distracted.
But I agree with the general thesis that more attention to guiding students and providing necessary resources once they are enrolled in college is needed, so I will leave off from my distraction and end on that note instead.
But I agree with the general thesis that more attention to guiding students and providing necessary resources once they are enrolled in college is needed, so I will leave off from my distraction and end on that note instead.
69
"Disorganized" is Republican code for "morally inferior and therefore undeserving of help."
45
@Diana Moses,
Good catch. David Brooks frequently uses the odious expression "chaotic neighborhoods" to convey the same meaning. Those who view the rest of the world through the bars of their gated community appear to see chaos and disorganization where the rest of us see ordinary people trying to get by.
Good catch. David Brooks frequently uses the odious expression "chaotic neighborhoods" to convey the same meaning. Those who view the rest of the world through the bars of their gated community appear to see chaos and disorganization where the rest of us see ordinary people trying to get by.
24
Thank you, Rhoda Penmark and gemli.
David Brooks wrote recently a column that included something to the effect that self-pity is not helpful. I agree with that, but I also think feeling morally superior is a similar pitfall. I think in both cases, the person is seeking some sort of comfort through an emotional satisfaction that (a) doesn't last and (b) prevents the person from finding ways of viewing the situation in ways that are helpful. Both seem to me maladaptive self-protective coping devices.
David Brooks wrote recently a column that included something to the effect that self-pity is not helpful. I agree with that, but I also think feeling morally superior is a similar pitfall. I think in both cases, the person is seeking some sort of comfort through an emotional satisfaction that (a) doesn't last and (b) prevents the person from finding ways of viewing the situation in ways that are helpful. Both seem to me maladaptive self-protective coping devices.
7