I need a new car and I was considering a Honda. But not now. Not with a company with record like this.
So how can they fine Honda for killing people and not reporting it, and yet the fat cat bankers got away with destroying the economy and buying the country?
1
Good! The federal regulators finally grew a backbone. I hope to see more consumer protection in the future.
2
It's getting easier to decide which car make to buy. GM is a no-no. Now Honda, although they have been a problem for some time. Now what are all the Yuppies who are glued to this make going to do? Oh dear, they may have to buy a Toyota, a far superior make to Honda in any case.
1
I had a 2002 Honda Civic. The transmission went after 70,000 miles, there were documented problems with their transmissions in service bulletins, but the dealer and Honda North America refused to replace it, even though I had taken it for every service at the same dealer where I bought it. Honda America was pretty nasty about it, too.
I managed to get them down from their original $2,500 price but I still had to pay for a new (rebuilt) transmission.
I will never buy another Honda again.
I managed to get them down from their original $2,500 price but I still had to pay for a new (rebuilt) transmission.
I will never buy another Honda again.
I am disappointed that the NYTimes has chosen to report this news. I hope today's paper will at least make sure to add an additional story today on last year's GM scandal. I do not subscribe to the NYTimes to get impartial news, I want to vent on American manufacturers and look to foreign corporate giants as our savior. I am sure I speak for most of the readership here.
I have owned Hondas since 1992; they are the best cars as far as I am concerned. Very reliable vehicles. I hate to see them singled out by the Obama administration for so-called safety violations. This is part of the administration's effort to devalue the importance of car ownership in favor of mass transportation. That's OK, and it should be an issue in the 2016 presidential campaign, but the truth is that some areas of the country do not lend themselves well to mass transportation. And even they did, I would rather have my car available so I could make a quick get away in case of an emergency.
1
I know they also singled out GM($35 millions), Hyundai($17.4 millions), and Ferrari($3.5M) for under reporting. Why is this government safety agency regulating the auto industry. The auto industry can self regulated themselves. We don't want to know about these deaths and injuries. If we don't know about them, then they never happened. We Americans are all driving very safe cars.
10
When my wife was practicing law, 20+ yrs ago, her firm represented a Japanese auto manufacturer which was nominally managed, in the US, by American veterans of the American auto industry. The company's owners and Japanese management firmly believed that American law didn't apply to them, even though they were selling cars here. The US headquarters' in-house lawyers would bang heads against walls because the US management often divided into 2 camps, those who would do what the bosses in Japan wanted, and those who would resist because the company's actions would violate American law. My wife always found it unnerving to be at the company headquarters and watch the Japanese company's American execs screaming at each other.
Also, the company wouldn't comply with equal employment law on silly things, like all of the Vice Presidents who were men would be invited to spend a long weekend golfing in Palm Springs, but the women Vice Presidents would not be invited and were expected to be at work.
Over the course of time my wife found out the economics of how Japanese auto manufacturers financed their franchisees, and the financing was very favorable. Once she said to an American exec "Gee, when I retire in a few years maybe I'll get a franchise in City X (which she knew was open) and my family will run it." She was politely told the Japanese auto manufacturer would not issue franchises to girls.
Failing to report 1,700+ deaths as required by American law, no surprise.
Also, the company wouldn't comply with equal employment law on silly things, like all of the Vice Presidents who were men would be invited to spend a long weekend golfing in Palm Springs, but the women Vice Presidents would not be invited and were expected to be at work.
Over the course of time my wife found out the economics of how Japanese auto manufacturers financed their franchisees, and the financing was very favorable. Once she said to an American exec "Gee, when I retire in a few years maybe I'll get a franchise in City X (which she knew was open) and my family will run it." She was politely told the Japanese auto manufacturer would not issue franchises to girls.
Failing to report 1,700+ deaths as required by American law, no surprise.
17
Does 70 million hurt, or is it a slap on the wrist?
6
I work for a large corporation unrelated to cars. Lack of integrity and cutting corners is de riguer. This really should be the conversation. It's like a cancer these days.
12
I have always had Hondas. In fact when a transmission went bad and I expressed my disappointment in its quality, the California corporate office actually replaced it for me. I was impressed and continued to buy Hondas. But as I own my Honda Fit and probably my last car, (certainly my last Honda) and I read about the faulty parts, I have now concluded that now Honda has been in America too long and has succumbed to the poor quality of America's customer service and manufacturing. That was the original reason I began buying Hondas: Quality.
7
Maybe all these companies are the same? I almost got creamed with my baby in a Chevrolet Nova with a Toyota engine that surged and hesitated. After months they bought that back under the lemon law. I had a so-so Dodge Colt and then 20 great years of a Nissan Altima that was totaled--other driver's fault. Now I have a Nissan Versa--I wanted a smaller car. But, it is nothing like my Altima and I wonder what secrets it holds.
Penalties must definitely be increased but as far as remedying an under-resourced NHTSA--lots of luck with that. The Democrats hardly appreciate civil service workers, the Republicans despise them. And those at the top of agencies have all sorts of political (and personal) pressures influencing their willingness to act.
Penalties must definitely be increased but as far as remedying an under-resourced NHTSA--lots of luck with that. The Democrats hardly appreciate civil service workers, the Republicans despise them. And those at the top of agencies have all sorts of political (and personal) pressures influencing their willingness to act.
5
With the exception of air bags, seat belts and ABS, Automakers are selling complex experimental devices in the name of safety. A very minor crash and you car is scattered all over, rather than a broken light and a dent, meaning more and more parts meaning more money in manufacturer's pocket.
These paper thin bumpers and fragile body and under body panels, those tough looking SUVs are no more safer than a smaller car, they are only safer because of their size.
In very recent years major exterior safety devices such as lights and reflectors and being placed in location where a very common bump would take them out of working order. So called bumpers are almost eliminated, No door locks except on drivers door, in case of damage or malfunction, you are locked out, or your child is trapped inside fastened in child seat.
Now what is it that NTSB and NHTSA is doing besides imposing fines? What do they do with all that fatal accidents and injuries data? Only thing that they are making secure is their fundings and jobs, while giving the automakers a free hand to make soda can-strength vehicles. It is not just airbags which helps protect passengers, it is the whole vehicle as well. Over all these years with technology advancements, no vehicles have become efficient or safer. Only over engineered!
These paper thin bumpers and fragile body and under body panels, those tough looking SUVs are no more safer than a smaller car, they are only safer because of their size.
In very recent years major exterior safety devices such as lights and reflectors and being placed in location where a very common bump would take them out of working order. So called bumpers are almost eliminated, No door locks except on drivers door, in case of damage or malfunction, you are locked out, or your child is trapped inside fastened in child seat.
Now what is it that NTSB and NHTSA is doing besides imposing fines? What do they do with all that fatal accidents and injuries data? Only thing that they are making secure is their fundings and jobs, while giving the automakers a free hand to make soda can-strength vehicles. It is not just airbags which helps protect passengers, it is the whole vehicle as well. Over all these years with technology advancements, no vehicles have become efficient or safer. Only over engineered!
7
So why does this all feel like yet another government shake-down on behalf of the UAW?
Not the anyone in the Obama Administration might ever do such a thing. On the other hand, if you can't compete fairly with Honda (or Toyota) then figure out a way to make them pay, and pay, and pay.
Not the anyone in the Obama Administration might ever do such a thing. On the other hand, if you can't compete fairly with Honda (or Toyota) then figure out a way to make them pay, and pay, and pay.
2
Yes, the UAW had to force the Obama administration to fine Honda $70 millions for under reporting fatal accidents and injuries, because the administration made the mistake of fining GM $35 millions for not reporting deaths link the Chevrolet Cobalt. Honda just play into the hands of the UAW for under reporting for the last 11 years.
6
I wonder if the self-reporting laws are as convoluted as the tax reporting laws. If it is, I don't blame the automakers as no one can make out what dozens of congressional session are trying to do.
3
I blame the automakers.
Just like folks can hire tax preparers, multi-billion dollar corporations can hire consultants to help them meet the requirements of the law.
Don't let Honda, GM, or any of the automakers off the hook. It's called murder when there's a clear pattern of deliberate action than causes death.
Just like folks can hire tax preparers, multi-billion dollar corporations can hire consultants to help them meet the requirements of the law.
Don't let Honda, GM, or any of the automakers off the hook. It's called murder when there's a clear pattern of deliberate action than causes death.
11
What motivates CEO's? Profit, Loss & Board members. When any two of the three become a joined focal point a direction of action occurs in response.
11 years of of massive recalls means loss of profit to fix recalls as well as loss of confidence in sales translating into further loss Equals incentive to roll the dice to not report accurately to submit reports of fatal accidents and injuries to the government.
The fine structure should be a base fine, additional fines on a sliding scale that would include metrics of Length of time negligent to report accurately, the estimated cost of a fix and quantity of injury's and deaths. The fine should Equal no less then Double the cost of part and labor plus any prior settlements with non disclosure agreements. Plus voiding all prior non disclosure portion of settlement agreements.
That should motivate Ceo's and Board-members to act accordingly to intent of reporting laws and/or motivate board members to eject a Ceo who fail to ensure this.
11 years of of massive recalls means loss of profit to fix recalls as well as loss of confidence in sales translating into further loss Equals incentive to roll the dice to not report accurately to submit reports of fatal accidents and injuries to the government.
The fine structure should be a base fine, additional fines on a sliding scale that would include metrics of Length of time negligent to report accurately, the estimated cost of a fix and quantity of injury's and deaths. The fine should Equal no less then Double the cost of part and labor plus any prior settlements with non disclosure agreements. Plus voiding all prior non disclosure portion of settlement agreements.
That should motivate Ceo's and Board-members to act accordingly to intent of reporting laws and/or motivate board members to eject a Ceo who fail to ensure this.
11
Better to jail the executives for conspiracy after the fact. Seventy million in fines means seventy million less available for employee wages and benefits.
17
Yep. Do BOTH. Fine the company to finance the trip to Club Fed that the execs take. That's the only thing that will stop the coverups.
20
I expect Dr. Rosekind is just getting started as he has assumed the overwhelming task of policing not only an errant industry but improving the safety of our long-neglected roads and bridges. To say that NHTSA is "under resourced" is an understatement to say the least, and obtaining the Congressional funding to address this daunting task will be a huge obstacle. Talk about a "no win" situation.
Let's hope this opening salvo from NHTSA is a taste of things to come. There's a new sheriff in town. Go get 'em and good luck, Dr. Rosekind!
Let's hope this opening salvo from NHTSA is a taste of things to come. There's a new sheriff in town. Go get 'em and good luck, Dr. Rosekind!
17
I drove a '99 Accord until 2010 when I replaced it with a Fit. In 2008, my Accord developed ignition switch problems that caused the engine to shut off thus disabling the power steering assist and the brakes. I took the car to a Honda dealer who claimed that my VIN number wasn't included in the recall but would replace the switch for $250. After I complained to Honda North America in California, they refused to reimburse me for the cost of the defective ignition switch. Each time the engine cut out I was fortunate not to be driving at highway speed on the interstate and was able to coast to the side of the road and restart the engine. I am not surprised that Honda tried to avoid paying for costly repairs by not dealing with defects that would have cost the company far less than the fine that was imposed on them.
33
So you expect Honda to repair your car every time it stops running free of charge for perpetuity? Fixing a $250 ignition switch during the warranty period isn't enough, but you expect free repairs after 9 years? The 5 pounds of keys you likely hung from the ignition had nothing to do with it wearing out?
If the suspension rusts out, that is also a safety issue. Do you expect Honda to repair rust free of charge when the car is 15 years old? When your brake pads wear out, do you expect that to be free - that is also a safety issue. How about your oil - the engine could seize-up while driving. Maybe Honda should also give free oil changes for life.
When does car maintenance become YOUR responsibility. Warranties aren't forever, and cars don't last forever.
If the suspension rusts out, that is also a safety issue. Do you expect Honda to repair rust free of charge when the car is 15 years old? When your brake pads wear out, do you expect that to be free - that is also a safety issue. How about your oil - the engine could seize-up while driving. Maybe Honda should also give free oil changes for life.
When does car maintenance become YOUR responsibility. Warranties aren't forever, and cars don't last forever.
6
What motivates CEO's? Profit, Loss & Board members. When any two of the three become a joined focal point a direction of action occurs in response.
11 years of of massive recalls means loss of profit to fix recalls as well as loss of confidence in sales translating into further loss Equals incentive to roll the dice to not report accurately to submit reports of fatal accidents and injuries to the government.
The fine structure should be a base fine, additional fines on a sliding scale that would include metrics of Length of time negligent to report accurately, the estimated cost of a fix and quantity of injury's and deaths. The fine should Equal no less then Double the cost of part and labor plus any prior settlements with non disclosure agreements. Plus voiding all prior non disclosure portion of settlement agreements.
That should motivate Ceo's and Board-members to act accordingly to intent of reporting laws and/or motivate board members to eject a Ceo who fail to ensure this.
11 years of of massive recalls means loss of profit to fix recalls as well as loss of confidence in sales translating into further loss Equals incentive to roll the dice to not report accurately to submit reports of fatal accidents and injuries to the government.
The fine structure should be a base fine, additional fines on a sliding scale that would include metrics of Length of time negligent to report accurately, the estimated cost of a fix and quantity of injury's and deaths. The fine should Equal no less then Double the cost of part and labor plus any prior settlements with non disclosure agreements. Plus voiding all prior non disclosure portion of settlement agreements.
That should motivate Ceo's and Board-members to act accordingly to intent of reporting laws and/or motivate board members to eject a Ceo who fail to ensure this.
2
That money should used to better regulate car companies who all seem to have a problem with keeping above board.
3
I used to love Honda, until the "black death" that hit its CRV model. Thousands of the vehicles had their air conditioning systems die, some when the cars were just a couple years old, and Honda denied knowing about the problem and refused to reimburse owners for repairs that ran into the $2,000 to $3,000 range.
16
Wouldn't the car be under warranty if it was just a couple of years old?
3
$70M amortized over 11 years, $6.4M per year...pocket change...sounds more like an annoying cost of business than a soul shaking wake-up call.
11
Herein lies the problem, the weighing of the cost of doing what is right for the vulnerable consumer against the cost to the company after potential discovery. Unfortunately, the cheaper option is selected. It's a lightly punished crime.
5
I've owned Hondas since 1989, and I swear by them--especially my 1984 Honda Civic Wagovan, the most reliable car ever made. How disappointing this is. They must have hired American MBAs.
8
I owned a 2006 Honda Civic Hybrid. It was the WORST car I've ever owned, and Honda's actions were disgusting. The car was touted as getting 49 MPG, but when the battery began to deteriorate because of the way they had the computer rigged to deliver high mileage, they short-circuited the hybrid system so that it did not function. I ended up with a 1.3 liter gas engine that had no power and got 35 MPG. That's what I got for my $5,000.000 premium. When I complained, they basically said "tough." Having to floor the car to get it to move, it developed a transmission leak. I sold the car and bought a VW Sportwagen diesel. Now that is the best car I ever owned. It developed a $700 converter problem which the company paid for even though the car was out of warranty. The $70 million dollar fine is richly deserved. I hope the people they killed and maimed get a piece of the action.
11
I wouldn't be surprised to see the current Congress try to defund or abolish the NTHSB--bad for bidness, after all.
23
Chump change. Only when a CEO goes to jail will this lousy corporate behavior stop.
49
The CEO is in Japan, so that won't happen. In fact, if the CEO of American operations went to jail, it would only elicit a shoulder shrug.
A year or so ago the Russians stopped allowing the importation of Japanese used cars into Siberia, for resale in the Russian market, because the Russians "wanded" the cars and found they picked up radioactivity, clearly as a result of the 3 unchecked nuclear reactor melt-downs which are still occurring in Japan, at Fukushima, releasing radionuclides into the air, which get in the jet stream and blow our way. In Japan it is illegal to even talk about what's going on at Fukushima if you are a scientist, a clean up worker, a neighbor or a journalist. While we may have rammed an American written constitution down Japan's throat after World War II, the Japanese business culture at its highest levels is little different than what id was before 1945.
A year or so ago the Russians stopped allowing the importation of Japanese used cars into Siberia, for resale in the Russian market, because the Russians "wanded" the cars and found they picked up radioactivity, clearly as a result of the 3 unchecked nuclear reactor melt-downs which are still occurring in Japan, at Fukushima, releasing radionuclides into the air, which get in the jet stream and blow our way. In Japan it is illegal to even talk about what's going on at Fukushima if you are a scientist, a clean up worker, a neighbor or a journalist. While we may have rammed an American written constitution down Japan's throat after World War II, the Japanese business culture at its highest levels is little different than what id was before 1945.
2
$70 million? That's IT? That's chump change. They'll just do a thorough HR scrub of anyone whom they have the slightest reason to fire, and some upper-crust exec won't be able to buy himself a new Caribbean island this year.
14
What about the airbag recall.....when I asked Honda about it they said only cars in certain areas are being recalled, even though my 2005 is on the list of those that should be replaced.
14
How about criminal prosecutions? For laws to be effective, you need to have real punishments.
55
True. If a corporation is a person, an unlawful corporation is a criminal.
I have a 2001 Honda Odyssey with about 78,000 miles on it. Love it and plan on keeping it until it or I die. I'm in my 70s, so it could very easily be me.
3
Same with me and my 2000 Toyota 4-runner with 125,000 miles.
4
Used to drive Hondas. Switched to Subaru for a better value and full time all wheel drive in winter. Found that the Subaru was every bit the equal of Honda in performance and quality. Now on my third Subaru. No recalls, no hidden accident agenda, no problems. My 2012 Outback has 45,000 miles, averaging 28 mph on regular gas with plenty of power.
7
I love my Honda; I used to spread the word. But I'm so disappointed in their decision to sequester the truth. How many politicians (Bill? Bill?), how many CEO's, how many bishops, cardinals, popes would have been better served telling the hard truth from the outset than waiting for the stain to finally show through the papered-over denials and lies? It's not just the fines; it's the cost to the brand.
15
A paltry fine that Honda can just pass on to the customer. That's the cost of doing business...
8
That's all? 70 million dollar fine? What a joke if you lost a loved one. Honda is on the do not buy list forever.
19
I agree - I always respected Honda for building better cars than Detroit. Now I see that the moral vacuum at the top of Honda is just as bad as GM's. For those captains of industry living in their multi-million dollar homes, the bottom line (and their bonuses) are much more important than the 1,729 deaths of mere little people. If one digs far enough, I'll bet we see the same cover-up engineered by their attorneys as was done in the GM matter.
18
You might need to get a horse or mule if you intend to not buy a car from a company that has never had a major recall.
We need an infrastructural overhaul. Cars are killing us. We should have invested some of that highway infrastructure money into rail.
10
I've come to the conclusion that all cars are unsafe to varying degrees. We decided decades ago to favor private cars over modern public transportation, and we've been the worse off for it.
13
They should have stuck with making motorcycles?! Help me, Honda, get it outa my driveway! Maybe it's time to go back to Chevy?! Oh wait, the Cobalt has had loads of problems, and my twenty one year old Saturn SL2 drives and looks better, than the new Cobalts! Yep, it's getting more and more to look like, when I drive to the levy, it will be not with the old Apple Pie, but my Saturn! And boy, did they self destruct! Ford Fusion anyone?! Oy Vey es mir! Well, the new Chairman's original name was Finkelman, after all! Henry the First, must be rolling over in his grave?!!!
5
At what point is unlimited, perpetual liability going to destroy the auto industry? We stopped building small aircraft in the US in the late 80's until the General Aviation Revitalization Act was passed, limiting liability to 18 years after date of manufacture of the aircraft [1].
While portraying large companies as evil may be an American past-time, expecting car manufactures to carry all the defect and safety risk on a car 10 years or more after it is manufactured is eventually going to destroy the very thin (5%) profit margins that exist in the industry.
[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Aviation_Revitalization_Act
While portraying large companies as evil may be an American past-time, expecting car manufactures to carry all the defect and safety risk on a car 10 years or more after it is manufactured is eventually going to destroy the very thin (5%) profit margins that exist in the industry.
[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Aviation_Revitalization_Act
6
What does this have to do with lying/failing to report deaths to the NHTSA? I haven't heard about anything that would make me think auto companies need less liability. If you're refering to the GM ignition issue they knew about it long ago they just didn't tell regulators. Is that what we need? Let auto companies just ignore a problem for 10 years and then they don't have to pay anything because the liability window expired?
10
This article fails to mention the $100 Million Hyundai/Kia fines for overstating MPG. The government admitted it was due to a misunderstanding of how MPG testing should be done, and a settlement had already been reached reimbursing customers for the cost of gasoline. After all was "settled" suddenly the largest fine of its type ever was levied. It is obvious that this administration is simply maxing out all possible avenues to fine industry in an effort to shore up revenue.
6
The people I know who own Hondas all cited safety record as the reason for their choice; now, consumers will be distrustful of the brand. Had the automaker been forthcoming and taken corrective steps, they would have earned another group of car buyers.
30
happened to Toyota with the sticking accelerator/floor mat question - so guess it's Honda's turn to eat some crow
1
I spent 15 years as an independent consultant in continuous quality improvement at one of the former Big Three ... and, because of joint ventures and joint projects, worked with some of the Japanese automobile manufacturers as well.
Although there were a very few exceptions at the operational level and virtually no exceptions at the upper management level, these individuals (almost all men) were very close to completely ignorant of the principles and technology of continuous quality improvement (and that includes most of those who were "teaching" it). Furthermore, those who learned a bit about those principles and the technology were invariably working in manufacturing and/or assembly environments in which "continuous quality improvement" was implemented in a completely thoughtless and non-optimal manner.
Add to that ugly picture the fact that, as a cost-cutting procedure, the automobile companies outsourced the design and development of the parts and systems of their vehicles to suppliers, instead of (as in the old days) having those functions and the experts who owned those functions in-house.
Takata should never be fined one cent for the shoddy design, development, and manufacture of the airbags they sell. The automobile corporations that outsourced those functions (to a low-bid supplier) and then put those airbags in their vehicles in the absence of first-rate continuous quality improvement principles and practices should pay through the nose.