Aaron, why do we continue to see uniquely American stories - movies that are about unique Americans - where the leading roles are cast with English or Australian actors? But hey, looking forward to seeing your " The Trial of the Chicago 7!"
He lost me at “Newsroom”, but the wit, wisdom, and humanity of “The West Wing” will always shine through.
If I knew how to do it I would rewatch the whole of West Wing.....
It might make the current political world fade for awhile. Can
we please just replay it now?
9
@Sarah Saffron Netflix
3
@Sarah Saffron
1
@Sarah Saffron My wife and i have been doing that for the last couple of months....It's like going into a positive fantasy game app but one is just an observer...Give it a try.
3
Whenever I see something has been written by Aaron Sorkin I know its going to sharp, intelligent and watchable. I hardly ever notice the names of the script writers but him, I do.
6
After January 2017, I immersed myself in hour after hour of The West Wing to pretend that was my America -- honorable, idealistic, and smart.
9
Hoping it’s Biden, but the best V.P. for Democratic nominee IS Stacey Abrahams. Must be a woman. Also the ethnic thing (these qualities perfectly round up either potential candidate). But moreover, best and most awesome. . . she is SO very brilliant and charismatic. Or find a more experienced WOMAN, guys! Just MUST be FEMALE!
4
@Gretchen "Also the ethnic thing"?? Wow.
2
"I don't mind if you're obsequious." Even the side chatter - a verbal delight.
10
"One of the complaints...was summed up by saying, “A typical black maid wouldn’t talk to her employer this way.” To which I responded that [a] there’s no such thing as a typical black maid and that [b] plays aren’t written about typical people doing typical things."
[a] May be true
[b[ Is not. Indeed, the plays, scripts etc. create the types--archetypes--then reality plays them out. See Eric Berne, "Life Scripts".
Personality reality mirrors art. Politicians like Trump, con men and bad journalists assume and play to the scripts.
Academics and Progressives have an uphill battle to rewrite them.
1
The best interviews are a real conversation, and this is one of the best in recent memory.
14
Thank you. I'm a great admirer of Sorkin's work and this piece reveals a lot of the sorcerer behind the curtain.
9
I continue to be impressed by David Marchese's interviews. What he gets out of his subjects in terms of substance, honesty, self-appraisal is consistently enlightening and thought-provoking. All I can ask for is more, more, more.
17
Don't mean to pick on Sorkin, but entertainment writing and acting is far from truth that matters. If there had been tapes or transcripts of LBJs Vietnam years it might have made for a perfect Sorkin TV script… The irascible impatient President, the slicked-back corporatist McNamara, Bundy the wonder Boy from Yale, the beloved “Westy” General (bodycount) Westmorland, the worm tongue saboteur General Maxwell Taylor, the sleeve-plucking Dean Rusk… what stimulating conversations, all Sorkin-esque I imagine.
There’s a new idea for a series. Let’s explore and enjoy the fascinating inner workings of the halls of power, the wisdom of the insiders and forget the 1400 a month coffins that were being shipped back home in 1968.
The real story and truth lies somewhere else, in what gets lost in translation, what rolls downhill, and the results of all that clever dialogue.
7
I love Sorkin’s writing, perspective and idealistic approach. I watch his stuff because he wrote it—and I’m a Trump-supporting conservative!!!
8
@Steve P. Sanchez Me too!
@Steve P. Sanchez wrote:
". . . and I’m a Trump-supporting conservative!!!"
Congratulations. The first step toward healing is admitting that you have a problem.
10
@Steve P. Sanchez I find your perspective fascinating. Thanks for commenting.
1
Sorkin is a brilliant, entertaining writer. He's also smart enough to doubt himself, and that quality is where his stories really shine. Moreover, sometimes he doesn't even know himself that well, which leads to surprises for both the audience and him. Consider his statement from the article:
"Here’s what would happen on 'The West Wing.' Joe Biden would say: 'You know what? If it’ll get John Bolton testifying to the Senate under oath, swear me in too. I’ll answer any questions you’ve got.' Suddenly all the attention would be on him. It’s a 'Mr. Smith' moment. He gets to sit in front of hostile Republican senators and show us how well he can handle them. If he did it right, if he was performing a 'West Wing' script where I got to decide what everybody else says too, it propels him right to winning."
I suspect that's not how Sorkin's story would ultimately play out. As in life, it wouldn't be so simple and a twist would emerge:
- Biden agrees to testify;
- the Senate makes him go first;
- Bolten then testifies and he basically has very little to say and even offers up information that indicates Trump really didn't exert any consequential sway over himself or any other subordinates, or Ukraine officials.
In other words -- Sorkin's words -- the intention smacks straight into the obstacle. I wonder what ending he would write for this story.
7
I'm an actor. Good writing is the most important factor in any entertainment of "importance." What constitutes "importance" in a script? Relatability, intelligence, heart, and truth. Sorkin nails this every time. This article directed me to an online search for Studio 60 On The Sunset Strip, of which, astoundingly, I was totally unaware. I binge-watched 6 episodes last night, and can't wait to get back to it!
18
The problem with Aaron Sorkin is that he IS a TeeVee man. Made for it, bred for it, beholden to it. Made for the teaser, three-act climax, quick wrap of an hour series. You don't even have to watch TV, as one commenter noted, to get Sorkin's glib 30-something one-hour episodic solutions to everything. All Sorkin's characters talk like HIM. What too glib, way too slick, way too clever and way too fast. Gee, I wonder who just pitched a new series???
2
@Thomas Hauber Thank you! I thought I was the only person who felt that way. Sorkin is obviously a very smart man and writes clever dialogue, but ultimately, it all sounds like Aaron Sorkin preaching to the masses, pontificating about what he believes is right and what is best. All coming from the mouths of characters speed-talking as they walk rapidly down hallways and in and out of rooms.
2
@Thomas Hauber Those who can, do; those who can't, review.
2
Terrific interview = I loved West Wing its whole run, even when I didn't know it was supposed to appeal to "intellectuals". There was just something about every character's makeup that distinguished them individually. We don't have fully formed characters like WW bunch and Seinfeld bunch anymore. TV is played for laughs or trash (I'm talkin' to you "Reality Shows") and now we circle back to Trump, king of Reality (Scripted) TV. More Aaron Sorkin TV, even if it's reruns of West Wing and Newsroom!
10
loved this like great tennis, both sides blazing, surprised you had someone like David Marchese who could keep up with Sorkin, because Aaron is off the chart...
Sorkin's Master's class was over my head. Or maybe I just can't handle obstacles.
But I did see that Biden opportunity.
Although here I think I understand Biden better than Sorkin does -- because I've been watching him for 40 years. Sure, he could have put the Bolton dagger into Trump's front and distinguished himself for the first time...
But he couldn't do it for two reasons.
First, the Biden's are not completely innocent and the situation reeked.
Second, Biden's never been a stand up stand alone guy. I've been waiting but something is missing something -- gray matter, character, confidence, I don't know. He's afraid to put his head above the crowd.
(Maybe it's the hair transplants or stutter)
Biden didn't stand up on Anita Hill.
Didn't stand up on Iraq.
He's a crowd scene guy, who always moseys over to the power circle and waits for a chance to throw in his two cents to prove he was around the in crowd. He's all side kick, never the hero.
Give me a leading man like Bernie as Spencer Tracy in the Scopes Monkey trial.
Or Mike as Mr. Bloomberg goes to Washington. (Richard Dreyfus, Matthew Broderick)
Or Warren... (Hepburn, Streep or Kathy Bates?)
Or we can wait until Quentin rewrites history with a happy ending. Nazi's lose. Manson dies. Trump has the big one.
14
@frankly 32 Excellent analysis that should be widely shared. You put your finger on something I've felt only vaguely. See Revelation 3:15-17: I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot. 16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spew thee out of my mouth.
Biden will not tell us how he would lead an effort to overcome the gigantic inequality that negatively affects over 150 million Americans. Perhaps he does not even realize there is a problem.
4
@frankly 32
However, Joe Biden is a good and decent man, qualities that Trump lacks, and which to the electorate count for a lot.
9
@frankly 32: True, and so Biden can brilliantly play the role so desperately needed at this point in time--a warm bodied Democrat who can get elected. And by that simple act, he can derail the evil idiocy that has taken root in the republican party ruled by trump.
5
I was riveted by this interview. It was so alive and like it was happening now. Some of the best repartee in print. I don't even watch TV!
13
Looks like I'm about the only one who's frustrated that Aaron Sorkin turns out to be the very opposite of an idealist here, but just another opportunistic "more of the same" guy instead. Ok, well, the positive way in which he presented bipartisanship in "The West Wing" did raise doubts about his honesty way back then. Thanks for this interview, which serves as a dire warning that he most probably ruined all what's inspiring in "To Kill a Mockinbird".
5
@Gray Goods "the positive way in which he presented bipartisanship in "The West Wing" did raise doubts about his honesty way back then."
So.... bipartisanship is bad? Presenting it in a positive light is dishonest? I'm confused.
1
@Jeanmarie
Bipartisan is morally neutral. There was bipartisan support for the civil rights act in the mid 60’s. That was good. There was bipartisan support for the Iraq War. That was bad.
Obama and Biden wanted a bipartisan agreement that would have involved cuts to Social Security and Medicare. The Republicans, thank God, backed away. Some centrist liberals, probably including Sorkin, love that sort of thing. I am glad it failed.
2
Please oh please bring "The West Wing" back into production!
15
Aaron needs to do a movie about Trump. HBO is about to show it's adaptation of Phillip Roth's "The Plot Against America," which is going to be the strongest condemnation of the President and his policies to date, I would surely like to see Sorkin do his allegory on the times.
6
Anyone looking for a current show like The West Wing should check out Madam Secretary.
14
@Bailey I sure miss Madame Secretary. It seemed to have ended so abruptly that I was hoping the producers were planning to return in to TV as Madame President. So why the heck didn't they? (If this shows Jerry Lujan as the writer, it isn't. It's Gladys Lujan and I don't know why the heck any time I respond to this kind of comment section, it always brings his name up as the author. Grrrrr.)
Sorkin as the anointed moralist playwright makes me long for Paddy Chayefsky. Or even Serling.
Now get off my lawn.
5
@Tim Clark Funny.
In any sane and logical universe, "The West Wing" would now be Reality and Mr. Trump's vulgarian antics would still be relegated to "reality TV".
Where did we go so wrong? How can we change the channel on this dystopian nightmare we see on our TV screens every day that relentlessly spools out like a psychotic Sorkin screenplay on acid?
12
I was a big fan of the West Wing even before looking through an old Doonesbury compilation and finding Josh was originally a Doonesbury character that differed in being married and from Arkansas (why isn't it pronounced R-Kansas). I grew up on Doonesbury and the highest praise I can give the West Wing is it delivered as close to Doonesbury like irony as anything on TV even Alpha House (Imagine a remake: Democrats and Republican law makers forced to live in same big house and it could be bipartisan who makes a point. Like Ainsley). Is Trudeau up for a collaboration?
5
I love Sorkin. Everything he writes is delicious. imo
5
A lot of Sorkin's tangential thinking makes him hard to follow, his points difficult to land.
I don't agree that we're drowning in timidity. I think things are simply not as dire as the hysteria of the general cultural conversation would have us believe. Sanders timid? He's a character Sorkin might have invented himself.
4
"Aaron Sorkin on how he would write the Democratic primary for ‘The West Wing.’"
This, to me, is the least interesting way to frame a provocative, informative, and much more expansive conversation, Feels like clickbait of sorts. Sadly, it also will cause some people to move on without reading something they might otherwise enjoy.
11
An excellent interview with an incredibly talented writer.
Thank you, Mr. Marchese, for not letting Mr. Sorkin so easily off the hook in what could have devolved into a publicist's puff piece.
And thank you, Mr. Sorkin, for remaining true to yourself to the extent possible in these trying times.
You write it or direct it, and I'll watch it. Simple as that, every single time.
28
I’ve rewatched every episode of West Wing and The Newsroom dozens of times - one reason being, as Aaron states, I like being with his characters. They are all flawed humans but redeemed at various moments in thrilling ways. I have a feeling from other interviews I’ve seen and particular moments in the Newsroom particularly - namely the invoking of Don Quixote- that some of what he writes may be an homage to his own father and his ideals.
16
"Timidity"?? Maybe it's just a headline thing. I've closely followed Sanders' campaigns and support him. Those many town hall meetings and campaign rallies seem all but timid to me.
15
Regarding the idea of “ liberal wish fulfillment “ one is forced to ask, what is conservative “ wish fulfillment” . Seemingly they have it now with the Trump administration. They’re winning and it seems cynical, angry, mean and without hope. I can’t quite get the conservative vision for America, what does it look like. Perhaps Mr. Sorkin could explore this idea. Yes, America is not as great as it seems, but without idealism, without the good intentions, what do we have.
35
I'd encourage Mr. Sorkin to write a one act play depicting the Congressional hearing he refers to. He can be very certain of how the Republicans on the committee would question Mr. Biden; but his version of how Biden should respond would be instructive for all of the candidates
8
It doesnt matter what #2 is on your list of priorities if #1 isnt winning elections.
I lost my quotation key, but I didnt lose my common sense.
6
@Sydney Carton Not much different than saying if we don't flip the Senate, then it doesn't matter who is in the White House.
7
"We’re drowning in timidity." So heart breakingly accurate.
This is why we love Aaron Sorkin when he comes into our homes on Netflix, having never seen any of them on TV. Why won't any of the leading candidates realize that all they have to do is be themselves and not doing that all we have is Bernie and Trump. Next time maybe an interviewer who really gets Sorkin's genius? i
6
This is when the Times is at its best. And David Marchese is one of the best practitioners of the interview I have ever seen. Every interview of his I’ve read leaves me with the impression that I’ve gotten to know the subject a bit, achieved a certain camaraderie and understand their ideas about life and work.
30
The more i replay episodes of the West Wing—
(always commuting), the more it resonates as brilliant satire. I have wondered how far off I am. On repeat it plays as deliciously dark as “The Thick of It”, “In The Loop”, “Succession”, or even “Igby Goes Down”.
(I should disclose that I have taught government for seventeen years.)
4
@M. Copeland Bonus points for mentioning "Igby Goes Down"! A brilliant, funny, bitter, painful film.
2
Talk about the tail wagging the dog. The problem with TV dramas that are meant to portray actual life is that they are far more idealistic than realistic. Now were talking about tailoring real life to fit in with TV life, rather than the other way around.
5
Go back and binge-watch The West Wing. Most all of the serious problems of the day explored by Sorkin and the cast or the WW are pretty much identical to the problems we have today. Income-inequality, middle east/terrorism and US involvement, racism and white supremacy, healthcare for all, Wall Street influence, campaign finance reform, etc.
And this was 1999-2006.
Sad thing is that it's 20 years later and we've made no transformative progress on any of these major issues.
40
@Westie in what was supposed to be a "fluff" political science class, I spent a semester analyzing episodes of the West Wing for its political accuracy while interning on the Hill. What we quickly realized as a class was how timely the show is even 14 years after its end. Sorkin tapped into much more than "current events" - he tapped into the heart and soul of this nation, its leaders, and the decisions they face. The phrase "same ol', same ol'" exists for a reason - we will continue to face similar challenges cyclically until we can master the challenges before us. As Sorkin said himself, it's not about good vs bad. It's about turning good into great.
24
@Westie I thought exactly that, 20 yrs. on and we're still...there/here. I binge TWW whenever I need an antidote to now, a shot of idealism and moral fortitude.
6
I wish everyone takes the time to read this. Refreshing.
5
Interview conducted with amazing skill. Thank you, Mr. Marchese.
6
I would prefer we don't hear anything more from Aaron Sorkin right now. I paid money to see his revision of "To Kill a Mockingbird." He changed a unique, important story written by, and about, a young woman's experience into a story about an old white man's rage. Aaron Sorkin's opinion on anything is not something we need at this moment in time.
8
@David Law in Your Opinion. Many of us disagree intensely with what you said.
8
@Cerelon And many of us strongly agree. It's called having an opinion, and yours is no better or worse than David Law's or mine or anyone else's.
Why is this even in The Times? We don't live in a TV show, even if our president is from one. People are dying and kids are in cages, but sure, let's worry about what a TV from the 90s would have done with this primary.
Just what we want to know, what a rich TV writer thinks about the primary!
4
@Brent,
you realize the paper has multiple sections running simultaneously? for the things you care about, there's page 1 (or homepage).
8
@Brent I understand your sentiment, but technically the article is published in the The New York Times Magazine, not the paper. And it would appear that the subject was interesting enough to spark your interest and get you to read it.
And since you alluded to it, if fiction really didn't matter in people's lives, then we might not even be dealing with a Trump presidency.
5
Will McAvoy is real, not an idealistic illusion fragmenting before my eyes. Right? Tell me it ain't so! Thirsty for idealism, more like parched and foaming at the mouth.
And, then there's that little voice in my head. My version of idealism is another one's perpetuation of evil. Whether it is Will or Aticus they seem to slay the dragon, but the other guy's version of idealism is still there. Heroic but not really successful. Yet, always my hero. I guess that's why it is called idealism instead of realism. Don't matter. I am parched.
3
Mr. Sorkin has always entertained me with his wit, his intelligence and humanity. At times others have seen his shows as "too" idealistic (my Reagan-Democrat Friend has always referred to West Wing with contempt re-naming it "Left Wing"). I think they're about people coming to grips with how to react in life to the difference between the "real" and the "ideal." The film Molly's World haunts me. Within the movie Molly is constantly pushed to give up names of others in order to get a better plea deal. She refuses. Here the "cause" is not the moral high ground of "gun control" or the "death penalty" but her internal identity linked to her name. In the movie all has been taken from her - her money, her Olympic goals, etc.. She has one thing left "her name." She clings to that one thing that she has left and she triumph's (in a "real world" way) by not going to jail. She's paid a price for a crime, yet survived as a person by holding onto her core identity. These are the most common human dramas. How many of us are ever in the White House as President? Yet each of us every day battles with how to remain ourselves and not yield to the evil demons within us.
Keep writing the 30 million dollar movies, I've seen enough things blown up on the screen and enough cartoon characters with paper thin depth.
Bravo to you and the issues and moral questions you raise in each script.
20
Thanks for this.
Object only to "Now" in this sentence:
"Now, at 58, he can definitively say he has had a theatrical success to match his achievements in television ... and film."
We've known Sorkin as an astonishing playwright for more than 30 years. (You could look it up.)
8
I have been struggling to write fiction, stymies my my ability to know food weiribg when I read it, and knowing mine is weak. Thank you for a really stimulating interview, but THANK YOU especially for the structural writing tips. This one lit up:
"worship at the altar of intention and obstacle. Somebody wants something, and something is standing in their way of getting it. They want the money; they want the girl; they want to get to Philadelphia. Then the obstacle to that has to be formidable, and the tactics they use to overcome that obstacle are what shows us the character. "
4
Please do a limited run of a new West Wing in Fall 2020, just to show optimism and decency can still have a place in politics in 2020 before the November Vote.
Please, please, please!
16
I had a love-hate thing with "The West Wing". I loved the characters--as a high class soap opera it was great.
As politics I loved to hate it. It was the silliest sort of meaningless centrist liberal wish fulfillment, and notice that the Bartlett Administration basically accomplished nothing. The foreign policy on display was early 2000's Democrats showing they can be just as prowar as Republicans, only smarter about it. It is interesting as a time capsule--this is what a certain type of pseudo-sophisticated liberal intellectual thought of foreign policy back then. I remember Toby lecturing his wife about the Middle East--"they will love us when we win". Yeah, that worked out well in the real world, didn't it? Some of the characters practically worshipped Israel, though they did try to be fair when they did their revised version of the Camp David talks where it all worked out.
So on foreign policy they solved the Israeli-Palestinian problem, but bombed some imaginary country which seemed to be a mixture of every demonized Muslim country that we aren't currently supporting. On domestic policy they put in some incredibly conservative Justice alongside a liberal justice because they think it is fun to watch debates between smart people. It's hard to remember any signature Barlett policy on the domestic front. I think they might have wanted a Grand Bargain, which again is the sort of thing a certain type of centrist political junkie thinks is cool.
1
I thought "The West Wing" was "liberal wish fulfillment back when it first aired, I watched it faithfully and wished/hoped that the people in charge (of the government) would do the same and learn a lesson from it. In many ways I think Obama was seen by many as the fulfillment of that wish.
4
Thanks for the discussion. Good exploration, and you didn't “go easy” on him.
4
Thank you for this superb conversation. I am saving it for future reference. Just in case Mr. Sorkin reads my comment, I respectively want him to know that I don't buy his self deprecating pitch. Your characters are not smarter than you . . . they are YOU. And we are all better for it. Reasonable people know a gift when they see one.
8
I never enjoyed his televsion, which seems to consist mostly of insufferably self-important idealists making cringy speeches about said ideals. I think its main appeal was that it served as a schmaltzy indulgence for upper/middle-class liberals of, err, a certain generation ("well yes I am a wealthy professional now but I wore a tie-dye in 1967, so I changed the world"). It has little basis in reality - for example, Mr. DeBlasio likes to set aside large quantities of money for progressive dreams, the majority of which winds up in the pockets of his cronies with no discernible benefit to the public.
But putting aside my personal preferences in television watching (of course I watch plenty of dumb stuff, too), the last thing anyone needs is the escapist fantasy version of the Democratic primary - we need a pragmatist - unless you want four more years of Trump.
2
I sure do agree with Alan Sorkin when he states "we are losing something important,........replacing the experience of strangers sitting in a darkened theatre and watching the big screen and experiencing it together, laughing at the same time........"
There is nothing better than this when it comes to a good yarn.
And Sorkin is the master of a good yarn.
4
Cancel culture—not one mention of "Sanders".
Such a well crafted Q&A. Thank you for the brief explanations running in red alongside it. Now, after having drank at the fountain of the Great God Sorkin, I have to go fix the first scene in my play.
3
" He said it right."
2
I didn’t think Sorkin’s “To Kill a Mockingbird” was all that great. A cardinal sin to admit it, I know, but it’s true nonetheless.
He can be very good but his particular brand of preachy liberalism can also be quite grating. (And I say that as a staunch liberal.)
4
Wasn't he and his production company the same group that shut down To Kill a Mockingbird productions and theaters across the country last year?
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/02/28/theater/scott-rudin-mockingbird-broadway.html
Let's not try to make a saint out of the guy.
4
@R Jensen
It sounds like you misunderstood the issue and who was at fault, R Jensen. Harper Lee's estate licensed Scott Rudin's production of Sorkin's "Mockingbird," but the contract prohibited other productions of the book. Despite being notified of this fact, Dramatic Publishing Company continued to take money from small amateur groups and to issue them licenses for an earlier play based on the book. To fix the mess, Scott Rudin licensed those bilked amateur companies to produce Sorkin's version, even while it was running on Broadway. This was a generous and unprecedented move.
4
Sorkin is right as well: Marvel isn’t cinema. And Rap still isn’t Music.
6
Pass the coke.
2
Exceptional interview! But, where does Sorkin say how he would write about the current Democratic primary for West Wing?
I need to make coffee before I read this thing......Roger Rees, you take over......
1
Re this interview: It's nice, the sound of people really thinking.
3
Thank you for a wonderful interview that leaps off the page!
I love Adam Sorkin's work, the fresh dialogue, authenticity, reaching out to where we live and breathe!
I often turn to Sorkin's amazing West Wing to escape the painful downward spiral of our country under its current short sighted mismanagement. Someone called it Political Porn!
But we live in the here and now and I welcome Aaron Sorkin's considerable insight and story skills to somehow empower candidates to straighten out the mess we're in now with a win in November.
Thanks David Marchese for another brilliant real interview!
3
Incredibly misleading headline. Keep seeing more and more of these here.
7
Forgive my gushing, but what a brilliant interview David Marchese
1
Yes, isn't it a pity that the predatory capitalists won't sponsor a 30M movie but will sponsor a 100M one. # what's wrong with the world today.. Unfettered greed!
2
Casting suggestions for the Sorkin production of current events:
Brendan Gleeson as Trump
Larry David as Sanders
Ted Danson as Biden
Loan Lovitz as Bloomberg
5
"Aaron Sorkin on how he would write the Democratic primary for ‘The West Wing.’"
Great interview; totally misleading headline. C'mon, NY Times!
10
Sorkin *did* write a major episode of this primary season.
As has been astutely pointed out elsewhere, Pete Buttigieg talks like a neural network trained on West Wing episodes.
As you might have gathered, this observation is not meant as a compliment to either Sorkin or Buttigieg.
7
Best article I’ve read in many years and Mr Sorkin is as Hamlsch as I thought
1
I loved his idea about what Biden could do to change the dialogue! Sorkin would know.
It seems to me the article almost totally was NOT about the headline. I would have loved to read more about how Aaron Sorkin would write the Democratic primary. (And why isn't Biden trying to hire him?)
1
Ugh. I've tried. I really have. Back when 'The West Wing' was on and everyone was raving about it, I tried several times to watch it. I found it unbearable.
Preachy, sanctimonious, banging you over the head with its ideas.
Years later, 'The Newsroom' came along. Tried again. Got through the first season, but only because, after a few episodes, hubby and I kept up just to hate-watch it. We used to laugh and laugh at the self-righteous speechifying, and recoil at the horribly drawn female characters, so often silly, flighty, and almost hysterical.
I was never fond of 'A Few Good Men', finding it too sermonizing, but never knew till I read this interview that Sorkin wrote that, too. No wonder.
My politics are solidly liberal. In fact, far left. But I cannot stand the Sorkinization of movies/TV and despair that this is what most people mean by liberalism.
4
@Lisa Simeone Couldn't have said it better. Thank you.
David Marchese writes: "Your Atticus Finch isn’t the white-savior figure that he is in [To Kill a Mockingbird] which is a change that needed making".
Really! Why does that change need making? Because modern liberals can't bear the thought that a white man might be a "savior" of a falsely accused black man?
Of course Atticus Finch doesn't manage to save Tom Robinson, which is what makes the story so poignant, so Finch isn't in fact a "savior". Does it annoy you Mr Marchese that the story shows a middle-aged, middle-class, white, heterosexual male in a good light?
4
Your headline is misleading. It is clickbait. I enjoyed the story, but please be more honest with your headlines.
15
The DNC should hire Mr. Sorkin as a speechwirter.
2
I have always enjoyed Mr. Sorkin's work, I am surprised no one mentioned Sports Night which I loved. It is a shame in this world we don't seem to have people in power doing exactly what his characters always do in striving to be better, wrestling with inner demons and enjoying their colleagues.
12
@Jody Sports Night definitely always deserves a mention
2
Responding to @Karlis' comment. "The West Wing" started during the Clinton Administration. I don't think Sorkin was writing the show anymore during the Bush Administration. In any case, I stopped watching during the Bush Administration. During the Clinton Administration, the show seemed like an ideal version of something that was possible--there were a lot of smart people in the Clinton Administration and they did a lot of morally admirable things, among the rest. But during the Bush Administration, the disconnect was so great that I couldn't watch. It became pure fantasy and was too much of a reminder of how far we were from that smart and moral world of the show, however flawed the characters could be. Hopefully, the next Administration will be more like the West Wing. (The current one would never be a movie, it is too far outside the realm of believability.)
11
If "The West Wing" was on some level a kind of ---I was going to say "love letter to" but now I have something more accurate -- a kind of "Book of Samuel" to Clinton's (would-be) King David: a variously censuring and admiring poetic critic, seeking to guide by reminding the leader of potentials realized & betrayed, then this is a problem.
Bill Clinton was a symptom of neoliberalism, its arch villain in certain ways, & neoliberalism is all about the idolization of commerce & commercial values, priorities, & motivations. As Mr. Sorkin admits copiously in this interview, his whole art form is driven by this commerce-intellectual/spiritual/political uplift dialectic. This inner artistic tension corresponded fairly precisely to Clinton's "neoliberal" problem: Clinton's commercial ("I'm very pro-business!" he declared") spirit, that which made him, so consummately, in the worst way, a quintessential modern, MEDIA, president, at the expense of real political ideals & principles, the betrayal that made Robert Reich loathe Clinton in the end. Sorkin's medium & style defused, or preempted any Reich critique. Sorkin wound up supporting neoliberalism up through Obama, Hillary's candidacy, and maybe Biden (including the Hunter fiasco, an emblem of New Democrat's affair with prosperity).
An interesting Sorkin project (tragic style) might try to correct this, connecting Clinton (hamartia, hubris etc.), Lewinsky, Reich (chorus), and "You Can't Handle The Truth"-Trump.
[email protected]
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@Jeffrey
Sorkin wrote the first four seasons of TWW, so yes, he was writing during the early years of the Bush administration.
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@Jeffrey The Obama Administration was an attempt to be like the West Wing. Their high-minded attempts at compromise with McConnell didn't work out too well.
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Love, love, love Mr. Sorkin and all his TV wonderfulness.
West Wing started my love affair with characters on TV again, beginning with Rob Lowe and that mis-taken pager in the pilot episode. Studio 60 started my love affair with D. L. Hughley. Newsroom started my love affair with Sarah Paulson.
Aaron Sorkin can add punctuation to the pages of the phone book and I'll read it. And then watch the show. And then re-watch the show.
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@Monicat Sarah Paulson was not in Newsroom
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Now if someone like Aaron, who has a voice and connections, could get behind a presidential candidate that isn't sold out to a party—someone relatable and relevant and who can actually represent all the people—we might get a real president. I doubt that he really believes in making big statements or promoting the kinds of ideals that support a United States. It was a good interview though. There are people who aren't pigeonholed into special interests like blacks, hispanics, veterans, females, gays, celebrities, or billionaires who can work with said special interests but still look out for the common good. We need everyone; we can't stand another president for only half the country and especially not just a fraction.
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I absolutely adore West Wing, but I do have to note that it ran during the administration of George Bush the Younger and could definitely be seen as a commentary on his administration. I always thought that the show should have a running subtext reading "Any coincidences with the Clinton administration are purely coincidental.
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@Karlis It started during the Clinton Administration. I don't think Sorkin was writing the show anymore during the Bush Administration. In any case, I stopped watching during the Bush Administration. During the Clinton Administration, the show seemed like an ideal version of something that was possible--there were a lot of smart people in the Clinton Administration and they did a lot of morally admirable things. But during the Bush Administration, the disconnect was so great that I couldn't watch. Is became pure fantasy and was too much of a reminder of how far we were from that smart and moral world of the show, however flawed the characters could be.
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I shall always regard "Studio 60" as the lost opportunity. It had moments of greatness that, had it been given more of a chance, would measure as some of television's best moments. That it had to premiere in the lingering shadow of "The West Wing" also did not help. I can only imagine where "Studio 60" could have gone.
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@Michael - I agree. It was not helpful that Studio 60 premiered after The West Wing which dealt with problems on a global scale BUT in re-watching the show on CDs (and with no commercials breaking its rhythm) it had a lot to say.
Also - kudos to Mr. Sorkin for having such wonderful actors in all his works.
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@Farron I thought the problem with Studio 60 was it tried to make the kind of decisions like what should be on SNL appears as momentous. I actually thought that he should have done a Newsroom instead and maybe on cable so he could have more latitude. I was thrilled that he did what I thought. People who love Doonesbury think alike
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Seeking refuge from the current political nightmare, I watched all the past episodes of The West Wing this past year--it was an excellent antidote to escape reality for a few minutes each day. It's not reality, and did not prevent me for working hard to change things, but a little fiction can be bracing.
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Mr. Sorkin's work never fails to stimulate, to generate thought and opinion. He's one of the writers for which I'll see anything written by him regardless of actors, directors or plot.
You are already great. Wishing you more success and satisfaction.
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I adore Aaron Sorkin. This interview was the best thing I read in the NYT today. Reminded me that in this chaotic, perplexing, frightening world of today that Aaron Sorkins are around to help me retain my sanity.
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Great interview! And, he is so spot on in saying this campaign is missing the opportunities to viscerally grab the attention of the voters. Having Biden go on the offensive and offer to testify in front on his former colleagues is brilliant. A heartfelt sincere exchange with Lindsey Graham - "Have You No Shame?" would tip the scales towards a Blue Team Win in November. Health Care is one issue. Call it "Congressional Medicine for All!" And couple it with serious talk of Preventive Medicine as the single most effective way to reduce costs.
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Just one voice from the audience. I greatly respect this man's work. It is intelligent, compassionate, challenging and refreshing. Thanks Mr. Sorkin. Looking forward to more. (oh, and very fine interview Mr. Marchese).
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What a terrific read. Love experiencing everything Aaron Sorkin writes. Hearing how he thinks was a joy.
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I especially enjoyed Sorkin's take on grand gestures and can only hope that at least one of the candidates will take heed. --Thank you for a delightful article; it was a joy.
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The closing thought is another kick in the gut. Not sure why change has to mean losing important things: can't the people who care about art and movies make sure the $30M features still get made? Can't the success of the NYT somehow spur the development of quality local and regional journalism hubs? Are we not smart enough to set aside some of the spoils of excess and agglomeration to subsidize the sand in the pearl? I think we are; and many who read this paper would support using our networked world to solve the challenges of change.
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@Patricia J.
My goodness Patricia J., do you not yet know that, with few exceptions, movies are made by investors who expect and need to profit from them - not solely because they “should be made.” Do you choose to invest your money in movies destined to lose money? I suspect not.
@Charlierf
Can the snark, in favor of fact. Do you think $30 million movies lose money? They don't, any more than do $300 million movies.
@Thomas Zaslavsky
Well Thomas Zaslavsky, seems to me that if investors agreed with you, those movies would be funded.
Great piece! How delightful it must have been to pose intelligent questions to one of our unabashed smart people. That Aaron Sorkin operates in the upper echelons of a successful screen/TV/playwriter is rare enough, but the man has ideals, too! And self-awareness? And insight into the creative process? So much to like here. Thank you.
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@Patti -- Can we clone him?
We could use a few more.
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Crispy, the give and take, enjoyable, kept my attention. Great interview. Thanks. I am looking forward to watching more of Sorkin's work.
P.S. Can you also interview the current President. Hmmmm....smiles!
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This is one of the best interviews I’ve ever read. You can see that both the interviewer and the interviewee were trying very hard to get to the heart of Sorkin’s intentions. Not a single softball question or answer.
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Great conversation. Sorkinesque!
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Great interview. I thought the same thing about Biden. Call their bluff get Hunter and Joe on the stand and debate the position a child gets when he or she is the children of powerful persons. The problem was the other senator in the race did not want him there. I am an actor who plays a lot for teenagers and like at MSG I know that they can shut their phone and be engaged in a good play.
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@pierre gendron It was a story waiting to be told—with so many complex personal elements and political that could be dismissed as Too Much Information, which might have been its undoing.
@pierre gendron Obviously Biden didn’t make that offer because he either 1) wasn’t up to the task or 2) had something to hide. Neither scenario bodes well.
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We are blessed to be living in Aaron Sorkin's world.
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But, Mr. Sorkin, you INVENTED liberal timidity with "The West Wing". You lionized Zuckerberg in "The Social Network". Your "Mockingbird" is preachy in that special way only a privileged liberal can be.
We are where we are in America because of, not in spite of, people like you.
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@Jack Lemay “lionized”? I dont think MZ comes off well *at all* in TSN. Brilliant, Successful, sure. Hard to argue with that on the facts. But mostly MZ comes off as selfish, ruthless and borderline sociopath. Which also happens to be hard to argue with, on the facts.
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@Jack Lemay You figured it all out! And I'm pretty sure Sorkin had something to do with that Coronavirus thing too.
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@Jack Lemay
I have to chuckle when folks say 'preachy like a liberal'; or, similarly, 'coastal elites'.
What does that even mean and how do you define it? You just posted in the NYT about someone else being 'preachy'!
It seems reductive to bandy about these categories without context and it certainly doesn't advance understanding.
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Sorkin: “There are grand gestures out there to be had, and no one is going for them. We’re drowning in timidity.”
The Democratic party and Americas as a whole has been drowning in timidity since Hilary Clinton's failed medicare initiative. Whether timidity is built into the party's DNA or just a learned disability is now open to question. In the Democratic primaries, Sanders and Sanders alone can be seen as somewhat unchained even if many of us think he is wrong minded. Everyone else in the primaries, including Trump, is a buttoned down calculator with a pulse.
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@wilt Elizabeth Warren. Smart, effective. Not wrong minded!
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@wilt
To me, Democratic timidity is apotheosized by their not attacking Trump on the one point everyone, Democrat and Republican, can agree on - if only the facts were forcibly and frequently presented. That is, all political positions aside, that Trump is a textbook psychopath whose brain development left him devoid of empathy for anyone but himself.
The issues allow Trump to maintain his 40%, intimidating sane Republicans. Separating the issues from the man’s mental illness, in ways that cannot be ignored, might reach those very voters. And, in fact, it is the psychopathic man, not the issues journalists hold dear, that presents the greatest danger.
Psychopathy is a word with precise scientific meaning; it is a medical syndrome, usually signifying a defect in brain development. Just as autism spells out a list of life symptoms; psychopathy (ascertainable from biographical facts, no therapy sessions needed) indicates a complete lack of empathy, irrational self-involvement to a degree that, via chaos and outright evil, endangers everyone else.
Trump scores 35 on the Hare Psychopath Test - extreme psychopath, totally lacking empathy.
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I'll simply never get used to characters who are constantly orating and preaching.
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@Horace Dewey
If you haven't watched Aaron Sorkin dramas, your opinion is uninfomed.
We are indeed thirsty for idealism! In our household we have found ourselves escaping the current news climate for shows like "The West Wing" and "Madam Secretary" just to get a sense of what a competent administration feels like. We lose when our quest for idealism is gone!
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It's fascinating to read Sorkin say that worst crime you can commit is to tell audiences what they already know. I'd argue that's what he's done his whole career - whether he's willing to admit it or not.
The West Wing *was* a liberal fantasy - both at the time and now. And maybe Sorkin sees Will McAvoy's speech as a character having a nervous breakdown, but that sure wasn't how audiences saw it. That wasn't why it was repeatedly shared on Facebook by everyone desperate to peacock how much smarter they are than the rest of the country.
Either Sorkin's being disingenuous in this interview, or he's in the fascinating position of a person who's achieved success at least in part by accidentally doing the thing he claims to hate.
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@Ryan would you say that “everyone already knew” all the points McAvoy makes in that speech? Recognizing something is true after it’s presented to you and “already knowing it” are two different things. Id argue Sorkin is the master of collecting small arguments and presenting them in a packaged way to make a point that SEEMS self-evident. But thats not “already knowing it”.
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@Ryan I’ve always thought the guy was uber talented and yet tremendously lacking in self-awareness. You see it throughout his work.
"Nothing will ever replace the experience of strangers sitting in a dark theater, experiencing it together, laughing at the same time." I struggle with that statement and I am not so sure Sorkin is right. Sometimes the communal experience of a film is great But there are so many times when it is quite the opposite -- the public can be unpleasant/annoying in surprisingly varied ways.
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@K Henderson So true! Cell phones beeping, gum snapping, popcorn chomping, kids talking, unwelcome editorial comments, snide snickers, and people getting up and down for bathroom and snack breaks--just to name a few.
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@K Henderson
I love movies but I can't get away from the seat kickers.
The theater seating is compact and people are too big for the seats which are built too close the row in front of them. People unintentionally kick the seat in front of them. It's jolting to get kicked and it happens often.
I also had someone fall on top of me due to those isles being so slim and people have to pass your seat to get out for something.
Seriously, going to the movie theater with a full theater isn't really that much fun.
Oh and we had the couple who got up every 20 minutes to get another box of candy or refill their popcorn bucket. Both of them! lol
great writer, great body of work, always go back to Jeff Daniels "America is not the greatest country.." so so TRUE. Thanks Aaron Sorkin , may you have a very long long life. The world needs more like you.
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@Thomas David - Keep in mind that this speech was taken out of context. As Sorkin points out, the man "was having a nervous breakdown." A healthy mind is able to differential between dark and light. This man was only able see the darkness.
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@janjamm OK but what are the statistics that make America the greatest country in the world???
we spend more $ on our military than any other country. And less on our education..meanwhile our government charges outrageous rates for college loans...and we remove science from the EPA and put a coal lobbyist in charge and dissolved the one agency that could of prepared the country for the coronavirus!! The list go on and on. But at the end Will says IT SURE USE TO BE.....go back and watch it again.
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@janjamm -- "This man [melting down] was only able see the darkness."
True. Although, the 'darkness' is precisely what wholly-corporate-owned mass media will never show us.
Pretending it doesn't exist by ignoring its existence makes selling a make-believe, corporate-approved planet much easier to sell us.
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I found this interview deeply moving and brilliant. You are both brilliant. Some sentences just gave me goosebumps because there was so much you could take away from a sentence, or an idea. Thank you for this.
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Thank you for this terrific article. I have loved Aaron Sorkin shows forever. I plan to re-watch as many as possible. Count me in with those who are thirsty for idealism. Voting, volunteering for campaigns and causes, and spending on those that deliver is my mission in retiremenmt. My joy comes from idealists and people like Sorkin. Thank you for this morning delight.
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I concur. keep doing what you are doing, Mr. Sorkin. I appreciate the strength of your conflict of ideas over actions.
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Aaron Sorkin is an American treasure. In a time when - not just our nation but the world - needs voices speaking with clarity, commitment and inspiration (and a little humor) - Sorkin delivers.
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Great interview...absolutely loved The Newsroom.
Thank you.
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@Brooks I have worked in a newsroom for 30 years. I don't think I watched more than one episode. It was so unrealistic.
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@Barbara And I don't think that anyone who really worked in the West Wing found it realistic either, but we love it because it's the way we want it to be.
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@Barbara it wasn't a documentary. It was a television drama.
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Wonderful talk with one of the best writers of our time. Thank you for it.
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Wow. I've been a regular reader of "Talk" for a year or so now. This may have been the best in terms of both rigor and vigor on both sides of the recorder. Thank you. Let's do it again soon.
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When the West Wing was airing, I had just completed a 10 year stint in the administration of Governor Mario Cuomo. We all marvelled at how the show got it exactly right. Today, I watch episodes and weep for what we have lost.
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@Susan -- "... I watch episodes and weep for what we have lost."
trump's tossing it all out
like yesterday's garbage
he bankrupts casinos
and now he's working
on US.
(Untaxed) Inherited Wealth is thee worst kind.
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or is that here here? I was most saddened to read "Everything about “The West Wing” was based on the moral and ethical excellence of these hyper-competent characters. In this political atmosphere, the show would just look like liberal wish fulfillment."
how sad having survived the Kennedy assassinations, LBJ, the Vietnam war, Nixon, civil rights, women's rights, human rights, the war continues unabated.
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Excellent interview.
When I retire, one of my to-do's is to buy everything Sorkin wrote or produced. The crispness of his writing and productions, along with his constant themes of tirelessly, comprehensively assessing and overcoming overwhelming challenges, keeps me on edge. That will be something I'll need after the hustle and bustle of daily work life.
Thanks Aaron....captivating, inspiring work over the years, and super job giving us a few laughs along the way as well.
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@Ed I'm retired, and the same plan occurred to me as I read the article... I'm 72, and never saw many of these shows mentioned... Because I rejected watching, first sports, and then series TV, motivated by the idea that these diversions were themselves the reason that people were disconnected from civics, uninformed about the implications of our political maelstrom... "bread and circuses." The article gives me the impression that smarter people than me were trying, and I wasn't listening. I hope Mr. Sorkin will do a movie about, "Climate Scientists Riding in Cars."
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@Ed Keep an eye on iTunes. The West Wing goes on sale from time to time.
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@Ed
When you do, do not forget to get Sports Night.
It wasn't mentioned here, but it was a gem of a show.
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"But what you’re describing I don’t think is an argument that people can’t handle idealism now. If anything, I think that we’re thirsty for it."
Hear Hear!
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