With Ukraine, and Russia has been emerged as key denominator in Syria, as for the terms of collective cease-fire option involving Turkey’s further advances inside of North east Syria, where will be Kurd’s ISIS detainee eventually handed over ?
Some observers on the ground suggest Turkey and Russia-client Syria have a deal to carve up the land taken, as your article suggests.
Meanwhile, trump made “missteps” according to the same publication. There is no deal.
But we all know there likely is a deal between Erdogan and trump, of some kind. And if there is, then it is a betrayal almost without precedent in US history.
40
@T I have read that Erdogan is a famously tough negotiator. Whatever deal Trump made with him will almost certainly not be to our benefit.
19
You forgot a couple key questions: Will the value of Trump's mall and hotel in Turkey go up or down? Or, since he let Turkey into Syria will he now get to keep them?
39
If you were a dictator or authoritarian state opposed by those with supposed-American backing, where would you place your bet today? 1) Would Trump defend S. Korea from an attack from the North and his friend Kim? 2) Would the US stand with Taiwan? Very sadly, now is the time these questions will be asked, by many
15
@Brad Burns why should anyone trust us?
5
All these terrible things...and I cannot shake the feeling that Trump let this happen because it was the only thing big enough to distract from his impeachment inquiry.
15
A couple of points: Trump has effectively surrendered Syria to Erdogan and Putin. The Kurds' youth are going to be angry with the U.S.,and easily radicalized by the escaped and sleeping ISIS cells who will surely become active and grow rapidly.
66
@JL22 Kurds will be radicalized by ISIS? All Kurds are seen as infidels by Daesh, they fought against each other for the past years. So you think after Trumps decision they will join ISIS and fight against whom?! The US?! Please elaborate your comment.
3
I read and re-read the article, but it's just too much for me to master. I'm old enough to remember the end of WWII, so I guess that's some excuse.
Unless one is a scholar of a given area of diplomacy descriptions such as the following are meaningless: Turkey had long been angry about the American alliance with the Syrian Democratic Forces, known as the S.D.F. The militia’s leadership has ties with a Kurdish group that has fought an insurgency inside Turkey for years; Turkey considers the group to be a terrorist organization.
I understand that Erdogan has been shifting from the secular movement of Ataturk after WWI to a more Islamic based country- yet his name is not in the article. It was megalomaniacal for Trump to have acted precipitously by removing our small force from the area, and then stating that he will control Turkey somehow by "destroying their economy."
It could be that this is too complex for the average reader to master, or it deserves a far more extensive treatment, perhaps of multiple articles. The tragedy is that the man who made the decision to withdraw has no deeper understanding of this complex issue than this confused reader.
One factor I have not heard considered in explaining Trumps sudden decision to withdraw is that it follows his familiar strategy of being a moving target and creating a distraction when he is facing a problem somewhere. So, with the impeachment inquiry driving the news he sees in Erdogan's phone call a chance to change the narrative with his impetuous and ill considered decision. Maybe this time he won't find an easy way out.
1
The main question here is this: would any of this Syrian conflict have happened if President Bush hadn't invaded Iraq?
The answer is that, yes, the sectarian conflict had been simmering for a very long time. But Bush disbanded the Iraqi Army under his program of de-Bathification, which led directly to the rise of ISIS. And that precipitated more conflict between Sunni and Shia factions in the region. What the Syrian wars amount to is essentially a religious conflict between these two sects of Islam, with both sides wanting to end interference from outside oil-hungry players, and in particular, the US. And now, with Turkey attacking the various ethnic militias in Syria, especially the Kurds, NATO is threatened with a much wider conflict in the region.
And Trump has inflamed it all with his ignorance and impetuousness meant only to serve his Russian mentors.
So, would President Gore have invaded Iraq in a mad dash to grab their oil? The answer is decidedly NO. And that means that we would never have spent trillions, and sacrificed so many thousands of lives, on the altar of meaningless, regional religious wars, just for oil.
It's clear who's at fault here. But it's not at all clear how we can disengage from the wars, either. Bush was wrong in his invasion. Obama was feckless in a complex situation. Trump is an amateur. And Russia is looming over it all.
America has lost in these conflicts. And we must find a way to withdraw, with or without dignity. But not like this.
79
@Max Dither
"But not like this" is precisely the problem. It is so much easier to make a mess than to clean it up, and our previous presidents have created a very big mess. And Trump thinks he can tweet his way out of it.
3
@Max Dither Well put. Sunni-Shia sectarian tension and Turkish-Kurdish tension was always present. Various US decisions (2003 invasion, de-baathification, Trump's withdrawal) have been catalysts for regional conflict.
Arguably the Arab Spring and the Syrian civil war may have still unfolded absent the US invasion of Iraq; however, ISIS would not have been a variable in the conflict and therefore arming/supporting the Kurds would not have been a strategic priority for the US.
Trump's ignorance is only matched by that of Bush. According to former US diplomat Peter Galbraith, as late as January 2003, Bush did not know there was a difference between Sunni and Shiite Muslims. The US invasion commenced in March.
1
@CO
I believe he was in contact frequently with Saudi representatives on this. He knew Bandar ben Salman quite well. The Arabs knew this invasion would start a holy war however the US plan included flipping Iran and supporting the Sunni states.
Throughout the Obama Years Senator Graham and his 'never met a war he didn't like' buddy Senator McCain couldn't keep quiet about the seeming cowardice of Obama. Now with McCain gone and only Lindsey remaining why is it that his new mentor can make matters chaotic with just a phone call? Perhaps Graham was just playing partisan politics all along and really didn't have any true convictions. As his current puppet master would say: "Sad."
2
We bailed out in Vietnam and let the communist North win, back in the 70s. Nixon vowed to bring our troops home for his re-election. Does this sound familiar?
5
Consider this a chess game. A chess master (Putin) vs. a checker player (Trump). Putin considers President Bashar al-Assad a pawn in the long game of getting Russia a warm water port on the Mediterranean. Turkey was part of a NATO pawn fence preventing Russia access to the Med. Look at the map at:
https://www.businessinsider.com/map-of-the-russia-nato-confrontation-2015-2
You can see that Turkey controls the connection from the Black Sea to the Med. Disabling Turkey as a NATO member using Syria is called "discovered check". Turkey has long been bedevilled by the Turkish Kurds, as has Syria. Turkish forces can now sweep through Turkish Kurds and continue over Syrian Kurds with Syrian/Russian assistance. In the process the Syrian Kurds try to link up with Putin/Bashar al-Assad/Iran and get annihilated as Russian/Syrian payment to Turkey, which has already become a Russian ally.
Trump, moves his "checker" to a safe square and thinks "I have got myself out of a "forever war".
Surrender usually ends wars.
The 1920 Treaty of Sèvres promised the Kurds a homeland. In the Middle East, a very rough neighborhood, those without a homeland and the means to defend it get slaughtered (See the Yazidi, Coptic Christians, Assyrians, Greeks and Armenians).
The Turks rejected the Treaty of Sèvres and Kemal Ataturk and his War for Turkish Independence from British, French and other allied powers from 1920 to 1922 was an absolute blood bath during which the Armenia genocide was repeated against Greek populations.
Hitler observed that the Turks got away with multiple genocides before, during and after WWI and he concluded that so long as Germany won WWII, no one would care how many Jews, Gypsies, Slavs, Poles, and Russian POWs were systematically murdered. The systematic murder of 3 million Russian POWs in 1941-42 was in fact modeled on prior Turkish genocides of Armenian and Greeks...
"The indications are that the Turks plan to eliminate the Greek element as enemies of the state, as they did earlier with the Armenians. The strategy implemented by the Turks is of displacing people to the interior without taking measures for their survival by exposing them to death, hunger, and illness. The abandoned homes are then looted and burnt or destroyed. Whatever was done to the Armenians is being repeated with the Greeks."
— Chancellor of Germany in 1917, Theobald von Bethmann-Hollweg
1
Syria and Israel have been a peace, or at least not a shooting war for a long long time. Israel wants the War Criminal to keep this peace. I want to hear discussion of this dynamic.
1
@WH
Peace? Israel has bombed sites in Syria very recently.
1
President Trump has blood on his hands. A disgrace to democracy.
1
Once again the US has told the Kurds they, like the Turkish Armenians - those of both groups who survived the Turkish-based Ottoman Empire’s genocide - don’t deserve a homeland.
I guess Trump says ‘bye Israel next.
The Ottoman Empire enslaved the minority peoples of the Middle East for centuries, until they ended up on the losing side of World War I.
Western Judaic genocide, with its Nazi grand finale was shocking enough to win one tiny “Jewish State” surrounded by Islamic nations, one Remains of the Crusaders Christian state in Lebanon.
But the mainly British colonials who controlled the area from the first World War on didn’t know a Sunni from a Shite let alone understand they weren’t all just a bunch of Arabs.
The concept of Islamic minority groups entitled to homelands never entered their minds.
Now with a mindless US president refusing to even listen to his advisers, it looks like the Kurds may have to wait as long as the Jews did for return if some of their land - in whatever’s left if Russian client Syria.
2
The ONLY rational reason for the US to be in Syria is to do the bidding for Saudi Arabia, through a regime change or an outright destruction of the country.
Is this in the best interest of the US public - to get into yet another conflict in the Middle East, just to help Saudis to divide and conquer?
It's definitely not in the interest of the Sira's population, the majority of which (Kurds including) was better off before the US stared its attempt to overthrow Assad.
1
So, the US was losing soldiers fighting in country A that did not want us there; now we aren't there - so what's the problem? A NATO country B invades country A and liberates terrorists to fight on B's side. Nation A and its allies are re-taking ground. Sounds like a wonderful series of events. UK, Israel, Saudi Arabia ... have at it.
1
Thank you NYT for your coverage of this crisis and all the maps. It’s a lot to take in but I’m trying.
One phone call from our Mad King in the middle of the night unleashed a rampage of chaos.
4
It makes a person wonder if certain people to the right of the US didn’t collaborate with the leader of the former free world regarding the move in Syria last week.
2
This proves it: Trump is not fit for office.
3
The biggest question of all is: how will this turn out for America ? What will become of the " Shining City on the Hill" ?
1
@Pat Richards The lights are out no more the shining city on the hill, sadly, the land of betrayal.
1
What about the oil and natural gas? Is that not the way ahead objective? It would be an economic boom for Putin and his Turkish thugs. And the spasmodic Trump continues to destroy America. A traitor in our house and his Republican minions mostly sit on their hands. All culpable. But I have faith that our Constitution will eventually rid us of this great petulance in the Capitol. The greatest words ever written will shred them to pieces in the end.
2
The President of The United States tweeted, "Anyone who wants to assist Syria in protecting the Kurds is good with me, whether it is Russia, China, or Napoleon Bonaparte. I hope they all do great, we are 7,000 miles away!”
This man is heartless, ruthless, and devoid of empathy. He dictates piecemeal foreign policy with his thumbs.
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@Kathleen that is one of the reasons we were protecting the Kurds. Also, they fought ISIS. Remember them? well, they will be around some more.
2
@pharoette I do remember the Kurds. The final sentences of my comment reflect my support for U.S. support for them.
Why not return Syrians to Syria? There are four million Syrians in Turkey, some are terrorists, criminals and most are war traumatized, displaced people being a giant burden on Turkey. Is it solely Turkey’s responsibility to look after them? The EU and the US can take two to three million, no?
Had Turkey warred with Kurds in Syria, its Kurdish population would create chaos so this Turk vs Kurd argument is baseless. Even the Kurds in Turkey want the Syrians out meaning they are not happy with Syrian Kurds blocking Syrians. Most Kurds in Turkey see Kurdistan as a stillbirth and do not want to wager their future on it. Otherwise, they would just make it real with their population.
Trump saw the losing alliance with the Syrian Kurds. Had he insisted on the Kurdistan dream, he would have pushed Erdoğan further towards Putin. By dumping Syrian Kurds (not Kurds in general) Trump is limiting the further empowerment of Russia. Turkey made the decision of being ready to entirely sever the US-alliance after the 2015 coup attempt by the Pennsylvania resident Fethullah Gülen. Turkey is no longer a close ally of the US and may choose to be an ally with Russia. If your country needs to have influence in this region, you could use force but the normal action is to have alliances. Losing an ally is more disadvantageous for the US than for Turkey. That is why I commend Trump for his rational decision.
His threats, they are not genuine but only smoke and mirrors for his US-audience.
1
@Blackbird you might want to read some more. Kurds have helped us over the years. The Syrian regime's so-called President, is a war criminal. I spoke with several Syrian refugees that are in the US now. They showed me where Assad and his government tortured them by using an electric drill on their legs. That is one example, they also regularly gas the people who oppose the regime. Does that bring back memories?
1
What happened to international partnership and diplomacy? What about the UN blue helmets? Yes Turkey has national interests. But the world had an interest to defeat ISIS. The world should have an interest of preventing war. The kurdish people were welcomed partners to defeat ISIL without a plan for the future. For the time after ISIL is defeated.
Where are the big negotiators that are able to achieve middlegrounds for each site? Even if it means making confessions to countries with different ideologies. What is more important than diplomacy and preventing war?
Why did USA leave this area? There is no safer zone for Turkey than a zone were US troops are present. Where is Europe? Where are the blue helmets?
Europe and USA must work together much more closely to prevent situations like this one, even if it is bad for domestic powerpolitics.
For me it looks like this whole thing is the result of a lack of diplomacy and international collaboration. The situation is worsened by the rise of strong arm leaders everywhere.
Also it seems to me that Europe and especially Germany must be more active in their partnership with the US in the future. A strong and vivid partnership presents the only way to defend our free and pluralistic democracies.
4
@Bernd We do not work with the UNITED NATIONS any more, plus we angered the majority of our allies.
2
@Bernd
The US never had U N approval for the invasion of Iraq.
GWB said “You are with us or against us.” Since the US has so many military bases world wide its influence and power to act on its own is not challenged. It has extended NATO bases throughout Eastern Europe and is still trying moving further with Ukraine.
1
I wonder what that young woman's (blue jacket) thoughts are at that very moment. She looks so pensive amid all of that chaos and distress.
What ever her aspirations for her life were before these bad times came to be, I hope she lives to realize them and, perhaps, one day enthrall her grandchildren with stories of her survival.
2
1. Who will control northeast Syria?
Eventually Mr. Assad, with the help of the Russians
2. How will this turn out for the Kurds?
Badly. Mr. Assad is not dependable
3. How are civilians being affected?
More death and disruption. More refugees.
4. Will ISIS come back?
Yes, but not just because of this.
7
This sure does look like an American Suez Canal moment.
The US has walked away from the proxy war of the decade. Now the question is... But the United States maintain a presence in every continent on the planet going into the next few decades?
The US's strategy in the ME has been completely lacking in tactical nouse and smarts for the last 20 years. The powers now taking over are local. Have the capacity to command legitimacy in the area and often have a real 'dog in the fight'. For the Russians it's the naval base, for the Turks it's their border, for Iran, it's bolstering its key Arab ally.
for the US The real crisis doesn't come in not having a say in Syria's future, it's the gutless manner in which the States has abandoned its partner.
But maybe the situation isn't as grave as it looks. The priority now has to be to bring this ghastly war to an end. Holding up a Kurdish force that could never of held their territory would have been, in the long term, bad strategy.
Dogmatic negotiating that excluded Russia and Iran from talks and blew hot and cold with the Turks led to all the serious regional players being frozen out of talks. With that the US expelled itself from the Syrian settlement at Astana.
But what I think we've seen here is the US meet limited strategic objectives (destroying ISIS), then deciding to leave the rest to others. Maybe... this is no Suez Canal, but actually a moment true to an American tradition of pragmatism.
1
@Mo I lived through the Suez crisis. This is nothing like it. It is the Americans led by General Eisenhour that forced Great Britain, France and Israel to leave. One of the most notable in Egyptian and a minor one in American History.
I fear the Kurds will be tortured or flee to Iraq. The Russians win.
1
It should be noted that Russian-allied forces are no longer buffered from Turkey or, ultimately, Israel (which shares a border with Syria.) And Turkey, which is already being supplied with advanced missiles from Russia, will be shoved by the US further into Russian arms (pun intended) and out of NATO by "punishing" US sanctions
Having failed miserably to protect their oil facilities using expensive but inappropriate and ineffective US security technology and advice, the Saudis are now meeting with the Russian president, potentially over buying Russian arms.
So, in less than a week, this colossal blunder has put most of the Middle East, long under Western influence, on a trajectory towards control by our most mortal enemy.
Good job!
7
@JGW
No worry, we have them surrounded by military bases. Their borders are exposed the US/NATO war games. If invaded by incoming they will respond, however with a small military and little money will not invade against the might of US/NATO. Putin is not stupid by a long shot.
Crimea is their only warm water base and they will protect that however. Best to let the Crimea have their votes
on independence from Ukraine. Right of self determination is a UN principle. It didn’t vote to join Ukraine until 1994 and was not happy with it.
@Ellen We're going to be lucky if we are left standing on our left foot on the smoking ruins of whatever is left of Israel.
News about the withdrawal of U.S. forces and Turkish overrun of Kurdish areas have been extremely hard to bear.
All of these along with other events created by president Trump prove he has been unhinged, rather plain lunatic.
Without his doing anything on his own initiative, things have been going about extremely well (except for Republican tax-cuts & judges). In that atmosphere he has been creating relatively minor disturbances like imposition of tariffs. But this is unbearable,
All of this shows he must be removed from office, one way or another, the sooner the better. This is now very clear, including to the Republican leaders. Will they step up, when the impeachment comes to the Senate?
4
@A.G.
However, where credit is due it should be acknowledged.
Donald Trump’s bombing of Syria twice for chemical warfare must be commended, which was quite effective. Furthermore, Trump in all likelihood prevented a huge massacre in Idlib about a year ago, though Assad carried some or most of that some months ago.
It should also be said it was Barack Obama’s mishandling in the troop withdrawal from Iraq that created the Caliphate. Then his doing nothing when Assad crossed his redline made the carnage so far worse.
1
How impressive to read such in depth information! so rare today!
the maps are excellent, and quite necessary to understand the tragedies in that region!
The ultimate tragedy is here, of course!
How can the USA be losing its world leadership to that extreme degree? And all self inflicted !
4
Good summary. However, as summaries go historical background, cultural-ethnic details, reasons for why we are where we are, are mostly left out.
News are for presenting simple day-to-day events. Better understanding of them requires some interest and effort and reaearch.
The region's current dilemmas result from historical, social and cultural factors, ethnic make up, languages, societal and economic structures. Add to this the colonial intrusion by Britain and France dissolving the Ottoman Empire, for economic gains, military and trade logistics, followed by rise of Russia/Soviet Union.
The chess game continues. Unfortunately, resources and lives are lost, when the best learned alternative ought to be dialogue, negotiation and compromise.
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@TamerK
When you think about it that way, what is the United States' role here? Is Trump right in pulling our troops out of a chess game it has no real stake in?
1
@TamerK
Consider the Russian attempts to re-constitute the Soviet Naval presence as even more significant than:
"The region's current dilemmas result from historical, social and cultural factors, ethnic make up, languages, societal and economic structures. Add to this the colonial intrusion by Britain and France dissolving the Ottoman Empire, for economic gains,
military and trade logistics, followed by rise of Russia/Soviet Union.
https://www.numbers-stations.com/russian-naval-bases/
Yes, this is a chess game and Trump plays checkers.
1
@SamuelR.
The US role in Syria is for the allied county to the south. Ha’Aretz paper can better explain the interest of Israel in changing Syrian leaders to the Sunni population. Assad is affiliated with the Shias. There is a Sunni/ Shia war since the war on Iraq. Netanyahu has expressed supporting the Kurds recently. This may complicate the situation
future.
1
Good article. Very clear. I love maps. But I wish they would include areas outside the political boundaries of a nation like Syria -- for example, in showing "Kurdish-controlled territory" or ethnic concentrations. The political boundaries are relevant, but not the whole story, by any means. It's like US weather maps that don't bother to show Canada or Mexico; weather, like the political situation in Southwest Asia, doesn't care.
13
@Launce BBC also did a nice job contextualizing the crisis via maps recently. You might find it useful.
Turkey's Syria offensive explained in four maps
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-49973218
Who are the Kurds?
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-29702440
1
Excellent reporting! This is one of the many reasons I subscribe to the Times. I can't get reporting like this anywhere else. Keep up the great work!
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@Larry Bloodworth Agreed !
1
Thank you. This explains everything very clearly.
16
I am ashamed by this craven betrayal of a noble people. It seems that we are no longer a "shining city on a hill". RIP USA.
32
@John Doe The child in me that grew up on stories of the shining city on a hill died a long time ago, and now even my adult self who held that the USA government still had some nobility has let go of that false idea. There are still noble people, but the government no longer represents them. Let's change that by voting out the establishment! Get rid of money in politics! Let's tax corporations and ultra wealthy LIKE WE USED TO when we flourished as a country! When all Americans do well, America is stronger.
7
What a mess. Neither Turkey nor Assad will protect the Kurdish minority which has wrangled for autonomy in the region for years. The biggest fear is absence of diplomacy and unenforceable "agreements" that leave Kurds at risk of ethnic cleansing and worse from both sides.
13
It seems important to mention that the Turkish-backed Arab militias presently massacring Kurds come from the so-called "Free Syrian Army" and assorted other "moderate rebels" that the U.S. covertly armed, funded and trained as part of its efforts to destabilize/overthrow the Assad government. When they were savagely massacring Alawites, Christians and Druze several years ago they were lauded in the Times and other Western media as heroes and/or victims in Syria's civil war.
Its also a little misleading to label Idlib province as controlled by "Other Opposition" when it is in fact controlled by Hay'at Tahrir al-Sham (HKS), otherwise known as Al Qaeda in Syria. While the US did not arm or fund HKS directly, many of its members were originally in US-supported militias that changed sides and brought their US-supplied weapons with them.
Times readers deserve a more complete accounting of US responsibility, not just for the most recent betrayal of the Kurds, but for the whole Syrian civil war, the massive refugee crisis it sparked, and the consequent surge in white nationalist and other far-right politics in Europe and North America.
The US policies of destabilization in Syria supported by the Times and the foreign policy establishment in both parties has had an enormous price tag. Trump's actions have been criminal, but lets stop pretending that he is the only one with blood on his hands.
102
@Christopher The FSA was always a very mixed and divided group. While its true in the beginning it recruited former soldiers and was moderate it later radicalized and absorbed other groups. Its no longer the moderate force it once was. I wouldnt be surprised if the turks are using radicalized groups to defeat the kurds.
4
@Christopher Absolutely correct. The former US has been trying to intervene in the Syrian civil war since 2011. The principals at that time were Hillary Clinton, then Secretary of State, Samantha Powers, and Susan Rice. They were fresh off their triumph over Khaddafy, and indeed funnelled cash and captured Libyan arms to the insurgents in Syria. The late Senator McCain made several trips to Syria in those days, meeting with the rebels and arranging aid.
When former US troops went in, they went without invitation and without even the fig leaf of a UN resolution. It is a question of why the former US would do so anyway, aside from achieving Hillary Clinton's and John McCain's foolish ambitions, and the wishes of Israel.
The NYT does not wish to recall this history, nor its own role in this debacle.
6
@Christopher
"Times readers deserve a more complete accounting of US responsibility"
Not just Times readers, but all Americans.
The history of the various groups involved in Syria is incredibly complex to make sense of. Does anyone actually believe Trump understands any of this? And yet he pulled the switch that sent the region into chaos.
Trump is a bumbling, stumbling amateur who suffers from delusions of grandeur. He has fed the Russian beast with his ill-considered actions in Syria, just as he feeds it in his every action around the world. He is entirely compromised, either directly by his greed or simply by his massive, deranged ego. How can the Republicans not see this? How can they sit by idly and not act to remove him from office before he completely destroys our country? Don't they realize that if America fails, Trump will fall on them first?
5
The putrescence of the Republican Party by its support of Trump and his corrupt dishonesty has led to this capitulation to Russia, almost predictably. Now some Republicans are objecting to their dictator's surrender on the battlefield against ISIS. They had to have known long ago that their leader was in with Putin and out for US interests. They had to have known long ago that he listened to no one but his own festering gut. They had to have known that one day he would listen to a foreign leader and act without knowledge or any advice in a way that would eventually endanger our allies, Europe, and us.
Republicans knew the chance they were taking with Trump as leader and they rolled the dice and here we are.
America will pay in lives when ISIS terrorists bring it to us. They are escaping from Kurdish/U.S. detention. It will happen and Republicans share the responsibility. Thanks, GOP/Trump.
They've been lying to the people they represent for decades, my favorite example being "Democrats will take away your Bibles" if you elect them. Yes, so many lies of theirs prefaced Trump. His lies are the result, his corruption, his misuse of office for personal gain, his refusal to take advice even from military experts. His ego is so fragile that he cannot stand to have anyone of intelligence and integrity in the same room.
Yes, Republicans now outraged about this dangerous gift to Putin of the Mideast, this capitulation, it's theirs. You gambled, we lost!
57
What is happening now between Syria, Turkey and Russia is a perfect example of power-hungry men who will do anything to own and control land, and through it, the people on it with the further aim of causing ripples of chaos worldwide. This is the crisis/zeitgeist of our time, to witness the pawns of war, people with no where to go, used by behind-the-scene potentates.
11
@Sally I'll go you one better. Aligning the interests of leadership with the needs of ordinary people is the defining problem of civilization. We have to find a way to keep power-hungry men out of leadership positions. To make that happen, we have to find a way to promote people (men and women) who aren't power hungry.
Like I said, IMHO it's the defining problem of civilization. Everything else is just management and engineering, and we know how to do that.
Besides, all those power-hungry men are making the rest of us men look bad.
12
@mlbex The way to do that is to remove money from politics. Public funded elections means that in most cases there is no incentive to vote against the greatest benefit to the people, and if they do vote against the interest of the people, easy to remove them from office. Support the WolfPAC and support Bernie Sanders!
4
@Sally Can there be any doubt that this will end in genocide of the Kurds? The Turks are using the same tactics that they used against the Armenians100 years ago, using third parties ie Arab minorities.... to do the killing with the promise of the spoils. While the West stands aside, again.
In other words, Syria and the Kurds made an agreement in light of the immediate Turkish threat without agreeing on the terms. They are basically saying, "Let's take care of Turkey first and then we'll see." Neither side really has a choice in this arrangement. I imagine Syria is going to have the upper hand in negotiations eventually though.
The Kurds get displaced into a repressive Syria. Syria makes peace with Turkey by promising to keep them in line. Putin wins an pro-Russia ally in Turkey and secures an anti-NATO ally in Syria. Meanwhile, the US has left table. We get no say in any of this. Vladimir Putin must be very happy right now. Trump just surrendered the US position in Syria without even asking for terms.
Well, no terms aside from continued interference in US elections. That condition was implied from the beginning.
26
This is a disaster in terms of new dangers that will occur from the re-emergence of ISIS terrorists. As they escape their US/Kurdish prisons they will scuttle to Europe, Australia, and the US where they will organize to wreck havoc on US citizens and those of our allies. Trump's new rules of immigration will not save us as everyone knows our borders are long and porous. This will suit Putin just fine.
7
I fear for the victims and of this violence and the aid workers that need to help the refugees. I imagine some difficult conversations are taking place at international organisation on how they get more aid workers into the area the Turkish forces are clearing and want the refugees to move into. It is wild, rural area with little access to amenities. God, could the US forces not have waited and protected the aid workers and refugees. Putin has won this proxy war.
61
@Jonathan Benton. Can there be any doubt that this will end in genocide of the Kurds? The Turks are using the same tactics that they used against the Armenians100 years ago, using third parties ie Arab minorities.... to do the killing with the promise of the spoils. While the West stands aside, again.
3
What a dilemma. Like Trump I don't believe we owe the Kurds. ISIS was their enemy and we helped them win their war against ISIS and sizes control of one third of Syria. But it was for them to hold. Turkey has a reason to fear them. Yet I dislike Trump for his conservative policies that are undermining our security and the world 's. He is a foolish statesman, creating a good deal of turmoil with his arrogance. Don't get me on his many crimes and lesser faults. And I am enjoying the outrage of the Republican internationalist, who seem to live to get us into endless wars. But. it is clear that Trump bungled the whole thing. The middle East is in turmoil and our 'friends" the see we can no longer be relied upon to fuel their hatreds. Good I fear may come from this evil presidency.
4
Could the Times investigate the situation regarding American nuclear weapons stored at Incirlik in eastern Turkey ? Are they still there ? What are the safeguards ?
51
Instead of starting another war in the region, it would seem logical to me for the parties involved to revisit the arbitrary borders that were drawn over a hundred years ago, and discuss creating a Kurdistan in the northeast corner of Syria.
37
@John Dunn
It's logical, but that’s exactly what Erdogan doesn’t want.
24
@John Dunn
The Kurds need to have their own country. They already have a quasi-autonomous region in northern Iraq, but Turkey has long been afraid that they will break away with a hunk of Eastern Turkey adjacent to the Iraqi region. Kurds constitute approximately 1/6 of the Turkish population, Mr. Dunn is right; the arbitrary borders drawn after World War I excluded a Kurdish state and now that miscarriage of justice has to be revisited.
35
@mcs, The idea that giving each nationality its own state has a sweet simplicity to it, but ask the millions of Indians and Pakistanis who lost everything in the partition. Ask the former Yugoslavs how much life has improved since Yugoslavia broke up. Ask the Irish if everything has been copacetic on the island since partition in 1922. Check out an old map of the proposed independent Armenia that was considered after the fall of the Ottoman Empire: it's almost the same territory as the proposed Kurdistan.
Nationalism for everyone is appealing, but ethnic cleansing has a bad name for a reason.
6
I wonder what U.S. military personel who lost buddies in trying to win back Syria think of this withdrawl of U.S. troups?
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Is there any International law that Turkey has to take 3.6 millian Syrians and must look after them ? No one is helping us to handle this big cost. We want to all refugees but this is a very big issue.
On the other hand Also there is a law that a country can not forbidden people's travelling rights and cause of this we'll let Syrians to go to Europe if they want. Are you OK with that ???
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@Kaan
As a matter of fact, the EU pays for it and there is an agreement:
The EU allocated €3bn ($3.3 bn) in aid to Turkey to help Syrian migrant communities.
14
@Kaan, you are right, nobody and no international law can oblige you (Turkey) or any other place (like Europe) to take 3,6 million refugees. But you seem to forget that the problem is originating from the fact that your country (Turkey) is violating the sovereignty of another state (Syria). This type of action is covered by international law. It is called an aggression and it is not acceptable. International law is a comprehensive package to be respected as a whole and not a selective shopping to be done in a department store.
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@Jacques
The problems originated from two sources:
1. Bush's invasion of Iraq that destablized the region and helped create ISIS.
2. The Social Media, which destabilized Syria.
At this point it is unclear if the latest development will lead to more stabliity or less. Turkey has been a faithful NATO ally for decades and has had to absorb most of the refugees from Syria. Not entirely a monetary cost. We need to develop better relations with Turkey to prevent Putin from taking further advantages of these problems, for if Putin is able to form an alliance with both Turkey and Syria then we will have a much worse problem on our hands. For example, such a development would not be good for the Ukraine.
6
Are US troops still on the ground ? Deterring Syrian regime's entry in Kobane or handing over ISIS fighters ?
According to The Guardian & The Telegraph as of Oct. 14 :
=> US troops were understood to still be on the ground in pockets of north-east Syria, including al-Saediya village, about 4 miles west of Manbij. US armoured vehicles were also stationed on a bridge into Kobane, sources said, trying to deter the Syrian regime’s entry into the city where Kurds and the US cooperated to inflict Islamic State’s first major defeat in 2015.
2