Alexandria Ocasio Cortez says U.S. "not an advanced society" at Bernie Sanders rally: "It is fascism"
No federation merging into a single empire. How do you feel about it?
Attention Bloggers! Ask Your Questions In This Thread - Biweekly #38
Thanks, I hate it I think
If you watch the video this is out of context. Someone yells 'it's fascism', and she says 'it is fascism that we're evolving into'.
You expect people to go to the source before drawing conclusions and writing long comments?
Interesting transcription you selected there. Here's what AOC actually said:
"It is fascism, what we have, what we're evolving into as well".
Which is still home crushingly fucking retarded. You can't vote out the problem under fascism.
I hate to be the semantics guy, but that's not what fascism is. But I guess aristocracy or plutocracy doesn't strike as much fear in the hearts of the people?
be the semantics guy. we need ya.
According to Twitter Fascism is anything I disagree with. 👍👌
Did you watch the video? AOC was responding to a crowd member mid sentence. I don't think she was saying that a non-advanced society is fascism.
The editorialized title is clickbait, as is so often the case.
If you're interested in peeling this one back, wait until you get a load of how they use the word "reactionary."
>She said that "We've evolved into a fascist state that only benefits its richest members."
If you visited the border prisons where mothers are separated from children, and assylum seekers are paid less than a dollar a day then it would make sense. There's racial profiling at border stops and the white supremacist movement is growing. The border patrol were unprofessional and rude to her, and were caught making racist and sexual jokes about her. Trump and the GOP are obstructing an impeachment hearing and making naked grasps for power.
There's a strong case that "America is devolving into a fascist state."
Let us be super clear right now about the English language. Words mean whatever the collective or even in group want them to mean. The vocal sounds humans make to each other are meant to convey ultimately how something interacts with our environment. The English language specifically allows for essentially anything that doesn't break a Law of English grammar syntax.
America could absolutely be accurately called fascist.
I certainly agree that we’ve been heading the wrong direction as of late but idk how she thinks being purposefully hyperbolic is going to do her any favors.
Or, to quote Kanye, nobody knows what it means, but it's provocative. It gets the people going!
She just made a mistake responding to a person in the crowd, and not wishing to disagree with their suggestion.
Maybe she's taking a page out of Jordan Peterson's book where words mean what you want them to mean not what everyone's agreed they mean?
It raises money
Isn't that Trumps entire MO?
So she's being a bit politically incorrect... Who cares?
You mean it was heading in the right direction before? Could have fooled me.
She's not what you would call a deep thinker. She was groomed for the role by the Democrat Socialist party for having a nice package of superficial attributes : cute, pleasant girly voice, female, person of color, young, etc.
Is this the wrong direction?
I would argue the only places where US is the wrong direction is democrat run places like Cali/NY where homelessness/drug deaths/homicide rates are on the rise.
Right, it's almost as though she's speaking at a rally! Oh, wait...
Did you watch the video? She was responding to someone in the crowd, mid sentence, and said that we are evolving into fascism.
I'm not seeing the issue here, other than the fact that the headline is misleading.
Because that's literally all she does.thats her shtick.
Plenty of legit criticism without saying silly things like that. It is an advanced country by almost every metric and is not classified in a way that could be confused with an actual fascist state.
You can have a problem with the massive wealth inequality, lack of healthcare, police/military worship, and other issues without sounding like an angsty freshman. Just like how you can be deeply disturbed/embarrassed by Trump and the long list of insane things he's done and said without resorting to hyperbole.
Exactly this. Name a single country that doesn’t have problems. Sure some have many social systems much more balanced than the USA has but most of these are much smaller in scale and many still have yet to be proven in terms of longevity of those systems.
Saying the USA isn’t advanced however is just nonsense and it completely undercuts the credibility of anyone who says things like this. Look at rates of starvation, overall life expectancy, technological and medical advancements over the past 100 years. Given the United States rather modest population especially when compared to India and China, it’s just insane how much innovation has occurred and how much progress has been made.
Facism-curious I think is the technical term.
She actually said “it is fascism, what we’re evolving into” not an uncontroversial statement, but still different from the headlines, which took it out of context.
The sad thing is that a likely majority of the people commenting here did so based on the headline alone. If you read a hyperbolic statement in a headline, your instinct should be, "Whatever was actually said, it probably wasn't as extreme as the headline is making it out to be." It won't always be the case but if you don't bother to actually read the full statement, do productive discourse a favor and just move on.
We are 1000% not evolving into a fascist state. The idea is fucking ludicrous. Talk about oligarchy, call Trump an imbecile, fine. But every person who has experienced fascism would be appalled by the assertion, unless they were hardcore socialists of communists. By no measure are we turning into a fascist state. Even the excesses of the Trump administration will not veer us into fascism. This is an insult to millions and millions dead. One cannot be living in a fascist state if one can vote out of it, ffs.
Nope. She said, "it's fascism, what we have, what we are evolving into." She deserves all possible scorn thrown at her.
You would have a point if she haven't made a habit of making of this hysterical screeching. There is definitely a pattern at this point.
We are literally the most advanced society that has ever existed. We produce more patents, more peer-reviewed publications, and more medical advances than any nation, ever. I'm really getting sick of the pessimistic caterwauling on the far left.
Technologically advanced, absolutely. But I do think it’s important to recognize other milestones when considering how advanced overall a society is. We have one of the highest gun-death rates in the world, one of the top three highest incarceration rates in the world, one of the only developed countries still with the death penalty, a healthcare system that has unnaturally inflated the cost of healthcare to render it inaccessible to huge chunks of our population even with insurance, prevalent and legal wage gaps between white men and literally every other group of citizens, monopolized internet service that is more expensive and slower (making it incredibly difficult for many Americans to gain access to information) than even some developing countries, an educational system that is the envy of no developed country and a higher educational system which has crippled an entire generation with enough debt to completely rewrite what are normal spending patterns and common milestones.
We can and have an obligation to do better. Saying we are the best but could use a little work still isn’t helping anyone. Change is uncomfortable, facing your issues is hard work. If we think we deserve our status as a world leader than we need to step up and do the actual work to get our society where it needs to be.
On human development measures like infant mortality, lifespan and K-12 education the US middle of the pack at best among developed.
But the US is definitely number one in self esteem.
Did you watch the clip?
She's pointing to the tension between those advancements and other metrics that don't paint the US in such a positive light.
Why do you say this? Maybe it was true 40 years ago, it hasn't been true for the last 20 years.
Several other countries produce far more patents and publications per capita than the US. When you do 1:1 comparisons at look at things as rates, and GDP-adjusted, and population adjusted statistics, the US ranks very poorly in essentially every metric. Japan, Denmark, Norway, Sweden, Switzerland, and several others rank above the US in every single category except military spending.
But you're ok with pessimism and caterwauling everywhere else?
If you're listing ways how the USA stands out, one of them is having the highest rate of incarceration in the world; another is drowning the populace in medical debt to the point where it's the cause for most personal bankruptcies. Meanwhile, USA trails behind other advanced nations in more meaningful measures than the number of patents of all things (particularly given how broken the patent system is), like the Gini index, Human Development Index, etc.
Then there's the social pathology that Trump stands for.
Then there's USA's gifts to the world like the Iraq War, the 2008 global financial crisis, the war on drugs, etc. USA has been a prolific exporter of its societal rot.
How is this useful if it's not available to the masses of people and/or financially crippling?
We have a system worse than basically any other advanced democracy in the world relative to our wealth. Period. We pay as much money via taxes as any other country and yet unlike all those countries the out of pocket costs and premiums on top of that figure is the leading cause of bankruptcy.
So it legitimately doesn't matter one fucking bit that 1%ers like Joe Rogan can now have stem cells injected into their eyeballs when **basic** medicines and care cost normal people an arm and a leg (figuratively... and then literally) and get more expensive by the day.
The most advanced at killing, bombing, terrorising and destroying the planet you mean (military industrial complex).
Its plutocracy you idiot, AOC is always too woke cancel culture nut, this is why I cant stand her. Bernie should stay clear in case she drags him down.
Who is she cancelling here? You're the one telling Bernie to stay "clear" of her, you're the one who's trying to do some cancelling here. AOC might not be politically correct, but she definitely has a lot of enthusiasm and fire. That's the kind of stuff needed on the left.
we do have people that die from insulin rationing. our poor citizens also tend to end up with hearing problems because as kids they don't see a doctor for ear infections. my dad pays almost 300 a month with very good insurance for insulin.
There are people in this world that are suffering....
Sounds like we need some communism.
What do words even mean any more.
I’m just here for the ratio.
The next story in my Reddit feed is a guy able to spell boobies on his watch, so I'd say that's a good sign of an advanced society.
Coming soon to a Trump campaign ad playing in every ‘flyover’ battleground state.
AOC is a gift to Trump and he will use her inflammatory rhetoric to guarantee a win in the electoral college.
If one looks at Trump and AOC and goes... "yup she's the crazier one" then there's something wrong with them.
What do you call a president who lines his cabinet with vampires like Rex tillerson who like to start wars for natural resources abroad? How about John Bolton? Steve bannon was Trump's campaign manager, who's literally starting fascist training camps abroad. This isn't a coincidence, it is by design.
We should probably implement policies to reduce the wealth gap, but moving too far to the left is not without risks. It’s a dangerous game to play.
I mean Bernie isn’t even that far left on the global scale. His policies are completely realistic and have been implemented before, but the corporate media machine has convinced people he wants to burn the books....
What is "too far left"? How about we go back to an income tax structure like we had between 1936 and 1981, when the marginal tax rate on income above like 15-20 million was 70%+. I think that would be pretty reasonable, not "too far left". Most of the old people calling this socialism were literally raised during an era where wealth inequality was kept in check by high top marginal tax rates, but they just don't realize how bad things have gotten now during their lifetime because they either (A) benefited directly from it, or (B) have been spoon-fed highly effective propaganda since the early 1980s which shifted public opinion in favor of enabling and defending plutocracy.
What policies to reduce the wealth gap would you be on board with?
As a species we’ve already tried and tested hard right through where we are now. I see no issues giving hard left a go (and no, I don’t think communism as we’ve known it is hard left. It’s just a fancy dictatorship with more steps). There are risks with everything, but I think it would be the hard reset we need to then work out the kinks and end up in a much healthier and successful place as a country.
Bernie should distance hinself from these crackpots, i think he has the best chance of any of the democrats to win, but he's hurting his chances with these idiots.
He never had anything to lose so why not hang out with hyperbolic rattle snakes like AOC?
She's saying the rich have perpetuated a society that benefits them, at many times, exclusively. You'd have to be a bozo to disagree with that.
Which isn't fascism.
no you just have to not like bad words about america. lots of people want you to say we have our problems but we are a great country.
A small group of people taking advantage of everyone else and benefitting themselves has been the cycle in literally every civilization throughout all time. Nothing AOC espouses (give the gov more power) is going to change that.
No she's not. If she wanted to say that she could have gone; "the rich have perpetuated a society that benefits them, at many times, exclusively".
You're trying to make her, insane, hysterical, hyperbolic rant more reasonable and reserved to make her look less unhinged.
Here’s a good enough definition:
Fascism (/ˈfæʃɪzəm/) is a form of far-right, authoritarian ultranationalism characterized by dictatorial power, forcible suppression of opposition, and strong regimentation of society and of the economy which came to prominence in early 20th-century Europe.
The US is not a fully fascist state, or close. We have strong institutions that uphold our democracy that we rely on and work to keep healthy and enduring. There are undoubtedly fascist forces working to drag it that way and erode our institutions, and it is truthful to point that out. I think it is also correct to say that Donald Trump and the Republican Party are those forces.
This clip in question.
IT IS FACSISM!!! ohhh wait, that sounds crazy.....
We are evolving into facism!!! that sounds much better.
This seems like a bad faith take.
Steelman, don't strawman.
Yeah, Bernie’s totally going to be President. Lol.
The same people who say she sounds awful listen to trump and think he's playing 7D chess.
It’s possible to think that both of them are fools.
Why? I think she's awful but I don't think Trump plays even checkers.
A couple of things that may not seem weird to Americans, but are worryingly close to facsism for the rest of us.
Speaking of prisoners does it strike nobody as odd that felons aren't allowed to vote, yet if they manage to get a job they still pay income-tax? Kind of goes against that whole "no taxation without representation" idea doesn't it?
5. A country idolizing an origin myth that has no basis in reality, the US was founded on white supremacy and genocide, but how many will actually admit this?
6. The government calling the press the "enemy of the people" now the mainstream media is dogshit, but it's pretty alarming to see a government operate such a massive disinformation campaign like Trumps has these past three years. Does alternative facts ring any bells?
Do these things not strike you as fascist?
This isn't even an exhaustive list just what I could rattle off the top of my head in five minutes.
Feel free to add to it or counter how these are not deeply disturbing acts for a country to be doing.
Demonizing the press to this extent is new to mainstream american politics. It is scary. My rep assaulted a reported then got re-elected and is now running for governor (again) because he rich. Trump rallies are a dangerous place for a reporter to go.
Here’s the clip, since nobody has commented yet on how brutally she’s struggling at this rally:
Were these her exact words?
She's a bit ridiculous sometimes.
Not as ridiculous as people who dont read the article and find her quote said something different.
Highest incarceration rate in the world, absolutely insane amount of spending on the military and obligatory military worship, cops can beat you, kill you and claim your possessions with impunity, patriotic displays at every public event, if you're poor and sick you can go die, working 60+ hours a week to stay afloat inside the debt trap that's been created for you, one legal system for the rich and another for the poor, concentration camps at the border, black sites, torture, mass surveillance. She's right and it's been this way long before Trump.
Lmao. Really doing a great job of building credibility.
The future of the left is looking bright.
So the US isn’t advanced? Then why are millions of people trying to come here Ms. Cortez? This country has extended more rights and protections to it’s citizens than any other. I’m tired of hearing from Democrats who hate our country. We are not perfect, but we’re not Iran, China or Somalia either.
You are one of the worst posters on this subreddit.
If you think the USA is not fascist you need to educate yourself on what the cia and US military has done in South America, East Asia, Africa, and the Middle East. The United States has been a fascist imperialist force for decades. Your country are not 'the good guys', whatever your American schools teach you. The sooner you realise that, the sooner you can change your system.
Edit for further explanation:
"a capitalist economy subject to stringent governmental controls, violent suppression of the opposition, and typically a policy of belligerent nationalism and racism."
Capitalist economy: check.
Stringent government controls: US is basically a police state, so check.
Violent oppression of opposition: invading and supporting coups in all third world countries that don't obey American imperialism, so check.
Belligerent nationalism and racism: these two things are institutionalised nearly everywhere in America, right up to the highest office, the presidency.
Fits the bill.
Maybe you can define fascism and explain how the US fits that profile?
What you've (barely) described here, doesn't sound like fascism to me, but maybe you've got a different/better definition of the term.
imperialism is not fascism. Heed your own advice and educate yourself
Why is she even speaking at a rally for a Presidential candidate?
Democrats keep saying so is a nobody thst we shouldn't be talking about.
As someone who was critical of AOC early in her congressional career, i've actually been pleasantly surprised with her recently - she seems to be among the more informed, least effective as a walking trump campaign ad, and productive, of "the squad" and one of bernie's most effective surrogates. But this is clearly an idiotic comment. She can do better.
Y'all think she's hyperbolic?
Bill Maher has said the same thing on his show. Remember how y'all were triggered then? Oh right - you weren't.
Last I checked, Maher wasn't holding or running for political office.
She said that she wants to make the US and advanced society, so the implication you draw is "AOC says the US is not an advanced society." That's unfair and unhelpful.
Someone in the audience yells something about fascism and in trying to riff with the heckler she says "it is fascism, what we're evolving into" not that the US is fascist.
This is a deliberate misrepresentation of what she said, done just to irritate and enrage. Why you posted it on this subreddit is beyond me
Well, to be fair it's obvious why they post hyperbolic things on Reddit. Hatred blinds.
Some people in this thread:
AOC calling the US fascist will cause fascist reaction, so please don’t do it, AOC!
To suggest the U.S. is fascist is an insult to millions of dead people. Unimaginably idiotic. For fucks sake, the American flag is a symbol of anti-fascism, literally. The fact that she can say this in public proves her wrong. Unconscionable.
You Jordan Peterson fans will be the death of humanity.
She's legitimately retarded right?
That's more of an oligarchy, it's quite literally not fascism by definition.
She is a nut
the US is a cesspool. 900 people have been shot and killed by cops this year. over a third of the population of flint lives lives in poverty. abortion is going to be banned in dozens of states soon. this is not an advanced society.
As Hayek put it, "Fascism is the stage reached after Communism has proved an illusion." The Democratic party is the main Fascist party in the modern US by that definition.
I don't agree with that definition. I'd say fascism is capitalism in decay, it's the ultimate last ditch effort of the capitalist class to consolidate their power and keep it through brutal means.
Ah yes, by a stupid definition by a Libertarian Icon, the Dems are the real fascists because they apparently (shuffles deck) were also once communists?
Neither party is fascist or communist. Please give me a list of prominent Democratic Communists in the last couple decades.
However, Republicans are MUCH closer to wanting an authoritative government than Democrats are to being commies.
American conservatives want an anarcho-capitalist feudalism, fascism is more of a Bernie Sanders AOC belief with the government dictating workplace practices and policies.
Yeah, worker's rights are so fascist!