Dan_inKuwait

Canada Wins, U.S. Loses In Global Fight For High-Tech Workers: Under the Trump administration, high-skilled workers are getting rejected at a higher rate.

Comments
Now let’s see tech salaries in Canada rise to match those in the US...
Canadian salaries in software and comp requiring roles have been rising like crazy recently, the stratagy is working. We're building enough of a cluster that we're attracting the capital that can allow for rising salaries
Canada (corporations) win. We lose. And the media celebrates!
This. Not sure I see that happening with thing like the 2 week Fast-track Tech Visa & multiple levels of Government using Canada's low tech wages & their willingness to bring in even cheaper foreign workers on demand as a selling point.
Here's a chart comparing US & Canada's
Here are examples of Government presentations crowing about how cheap we are:
Typical pitch. This one's from the previous Government of Ontario:
https://www.investinontario.com/spotlights/robert-half-international-compares-it-salaries-across-us-canada
Vancouver's pitch for Amazon HQ:
https://dailyhive.com/vancouver/inside-vancouver-bid-amazon-new-second-headquarters
SkipTheDishes
https://globalnews.ca/news/4302531/skipthedishes-hires-over-80-brazilian-people-to-work-in-winnipeg/
No really surprised, our government (red or blue) rarely hesitates to promote their willingness to allow companies to bring in foreign workers in tech now that the widely abused H1B visa is being clamped down on a little.
It's worth mentioning that the US, with a population of 330 million only issues 65,000 H1B visas with another 20,000 reserved for those with a masters. So 85,000 in total and even with those numbers the program is contentious.
Canada's population is only about 37 million and just under our foreign student program alone, we likely have several hundred thousand foreign students working here. Their spouses are also eligible. The last numbers I read had us at around 500,000 foreign students with about half of them working. Add in the other half-dozen or so foreign labor programs (adding another 500,000+ workers) and it's no wonder tech wages in this country are a fraction of what they are in the US.
I'm fine with foreign workers in tech being brought in if they have a specialized skill that can't legitimately be filled with a Canadian and they're paid accordingly.
Selling us out for corporate profits? Not so much.
This was even before the fast track tech visa:
Microsoft's new B.C. workforce to consist mostly of foreigners: draft plan
The freedom of information documents, given to CBC News by a third party who works in the industry, 
Let’s see a tech industry outside Ontario first
salaries are high in the US largely because more foreign tech workers are being rejected for US visas. it's exacerbating an existing lack of tech workers. meanwhile canada is being flooded with talent, which is helping to drive salaries down.
you can have lots of new talent immigrate to the country, or you can have (artificially) high salaries, not both.
Looking at salaries only is very narrow minded. You have to consider total cost of living to really make a valid comparison. What's the point of having a higher salary if, for example, you have to shell out tens of thousands a year for medical expenses? Not to mention women who, god forbid, would want to have kids. The US is one of the worst countries in the world for maternity leaves.
Canadian salaries in software and comp requiring roles have been rising like crazy in Toronto recently, the stratagy is working. We're building enough of a cluster that we're attracting the capital that can allow for rising salaries
I'd argue that the US rejecting these workers is part of the reason their salaries stay higher. We're actively sabotaging our current workers by importing all these workers.
They’re actually starting to catch up a lot, especially in Toronto. The salary to cost of living in Toronto is close to that of San Francisco (I say this as someone who moved from TO to SF last year).
Looking at salaries only is very narrow minded. You have to consider total cost of living to really make a valid comparison. What's the point of having a higher salary if, for example, you have to shell out tens of thousands a year for medical expenses? Not to mention women who, god forbid, would want to have kids. The US is one of the worst countries in the world for maternity leaves.
Canadian salaries in software and comp requiring roles have been rising like crazy in Toronto recently, the stratagy is working. We're building enough of a cluster that we're attracting the capital that can allow for rising salaries
This. Not sure I see that happening with things like the 2 week Fast-track Tech Visa & multiple levels of Government using Canada's low tech wages & their willingness to bring in even cheaper foreign workers on demand as a selling point.
Here's a chart comparing US & Canada's
Here are examples of Government presentations crowing about how cheap we are:
Typical pitch. This one's from the previous Government of Ontario:
https://www.investinontario.com/spotlights/robert-half-international-compares-it-salaries-across-us-canada
Vancouver's pitch for Amazon HQ:
https://dailyhive.com/vancouver/inside-vancouver-bid-amazon-new-second-headquarters
SkipTheDishes, the online food delivery company headquartered in Winnipeg, has hired over 80 Brazilian people to perform software development and coding work in the city.
https://globalnews.ca/news/4302531/skipthedishes-hires-over-80-brazilian-people-to-work-in-winnipeg/
No really surprised, our government (red or blue) rarely hesitates to promote their willingness to allow companies to bring in foreign workers in tech now that the widely abused H1B visa is being clamped down on a little.
It's worth mentioning that the US, with a population of 330 million only issues 65,000 H1B visas with another 20,000 reserved for those with a masters. So 85,000 in total and even with those numbers the program is contentious.
Canada's population is only about 37 million and just under our foreign student program alone, we likely have several hundred thousand foreign students working here. Their spouses are also eligible. The last numbers I read had us at around 500,000 foreign students with about half of them working. Add in the other half-dozen or so foreign labor programs (easily another 500,000 plus foreign workers) and it's no wonder tech wages in this country are a fraction of what they are in the US.
I'm fine with foreign workers in tech being brought in if they have a specialized skill that can't legitimately be filled with a Canadian and they're paid accordingly.
Selling us out for corporate profits? Not so much.
This was even before the fast track tech visa:
Microsoft's new B.C. workforce to consist mostly of foreigners: draft plan
The freedom of information documents, given to CBC News by a third party who works in the industry, 
I guess global corporations in Canada win ? It sure isnt Canadian citizens winning when a glut of foreign works are allowed in, it keeps wages down . And they are much lower than the USA.
You high tax payer base. Forming a tech hub doesn't benefit society at all?
But... But... immigrants bad duh
Yes, the US is rejecting high tech foreign workers from India. Yes, Canada will accept all high tech foreign workers and salaries will continue to decrease.
Because Canadian-born tech workers migrate to the US as soon as they can in order to make more, while Canada imports cheap labor from overseas which keeps wages nice and low.
Take that, Trump!
Criminally low, try to get a job in ottawa ontario without knowing french while having diplomas falling out of your ass. You will be lucky to make minimum wage and full time hours.
We aren't fleeing canada because we want to leave our home, we are being treated like dog shit and trying to survive because (minimum wage====starving to death)
Can confirm that. I am a an immigration attorney in L.A. (born in Canada); I have quite a few Canadian clients that moved their operations to the U.S. (mostly on the E-2 visa).
Yes, this. I'm one of those tech workers who moved to the US. 50% salary increase and great weather.
Nailed it
Let's say you already live in Toronto with your phd and friends and children and lowly $100k salary, how much do you think you'd have to pay them extra to leave everything and move to the kleptocratic wasteland to our south?
How much of a pay cut do you think hopeful graduates are willing to take to start a new life in one of the last English speaking progressive developed nations with a significant tech industry?
Wooooo! Yah! More high tech immigrants to Toronto! Get ready for 3k/month rents!
3k rent with a 3k a month salary! Wohoo!
Toronto is already there, at least for 2-bedrooms
Exactly my thought...
For a studio
3k a month is pretty cheap for SF...
Maybe if other provinces and cities could attract and keep immigrants Toronto wouldn’t have to burnt it all
Somewhat misleading headline. Basically US has slowed down H1B entrants in favor of locally grown talent so that salaries don't stay stagnant. There's too many tech jobs where the only way to get a raise is to job hop.
So a lot of these migrant tech workers have an easier time coming here. it benefits canadian companies sure but it does dick all for local tech workers. It just brings in more competition.
But it is NPR... anything that spins the internationalist agenda positively is good even if it harms the local talent pool.
I recently hired an entry level web programmer (near Kitchner-Waterloo), and Indians were by far the biggest demographic to apply. After that, Chinese. Not that I would discriminate, but only about 10% of 50 or so applicants I reviewed were out of Canadian schools anyway. The man we hired is a recent immigrant (India), and has since got his Canadian citizenship. I imagine he will leave once he has some experience and finds something better, but I think it's great that educated people are immigrating to Canada and becoming productive members of society.
The problem I think is when entry-level jobs/salaries are asking for a 4 year degree and 5+ years experience. I dealt with this as a graphic designer first breaking into my career about 10 years ago, and found more success outside of Toronto where the competition for jobs was a lot lower.
tech salaries aren't stagnant.
Look at any company's hiring page, dozens of roles.
Filling positions can take weeks.
NPR is probably the least biased news source in the US.
How’s the title misleading. You literally state the cost benefit
Exactly, us government actually looks out for their people, ours is selling us out to the highest bidder
The last time I saw anything on this it said two thirds of Canadian software engineer grads were leaving for higher salaries in the US every year. I haven't heard anything that suggests that has stopped. It might even have increased.
Not enough jobs to go around and bosses treat us like replaceable cogs in a machine. Clearly what we need is more competition for those shitty underpaying jobs. Winning!
Literally every person is a replaceable cog in a machine
High tech jobs. No one is coming to take your broom away, Perkins.
There's more jobs then can possibly be filled
Unbelievable title. "US prefers to hire its own people while Canada gives jobs to non-Canadians."
Seriously. As if it's this great thing that Canada is getting more potential workers in an industry where wages already lag far behind equivalent roles in the US
In theory, sure. In practice, it's more like "US prefers to send jobs abroad instead of hiring immigrants."
Because that's what seems to be happening, based on conversations within the industry; multi-national tech companies are just moving headcount to offices in other English-speaking countries, predominantly Canada.
If I were a US nationalist, I think I would prefer importing someone to work a job over exporting the whole job, especially with a long history of jobs leaving and not coming back. But since I'm a Canadian, I'm just mildly amused at the shortsightedness of the present American government.
I am sure US companies hire their immigrants (Green cards) too, just as Canada. It's just that Canada gets more immigrants than US. So, in a way, Canada also hires its own people just like US. It's just the scale and lack of bigger market in Canada vs. US.
Canadian companies also don't consider applications from outside of Canada. It's next to impossible to be called for an interview if an applicant is, let's say based in India. Now, if you are talking about getting people here on Projects, then that's a separate issue altogether.
Canada is being used to skirt H1B crackdown, nothing more.
Lol. This is doublespeak at its finest. Bringing in foreign workers that presumably work for less and keep tech wages at rock bottom rates in Canada is anything but winning.
maybe not high enough for US standard but definitely better than other Canadian jobs.
my new tenant got hired by Amazon for 145k a year + 62k signing bonus.
honestly, if tech sector is getting paid 200k+ starting salary, more Canadian would be complaining
That's in-line with dev salaries in Vancouver right now....
Was the amazon offer in a Canada office or somewhere in the US?
If Canada that definitely doesn’t seem like the norm, but excellent for him/her!!
What sort of experience did they have?
Just something to keep in mind is that these are not your typical tech jobs. Amazon devs are basically the cream of the crop and willing to make significant quality of life sacrifice and work like dogs. These are comparable to high risk, high stress oil rig worker jobs of the labor world.
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Imagine this. The tech sector shuts everything down and organizes a strike for a few days. EVERYTHING would come to a grinding halt.
Highly skilled workers generally have a decent amount of money and get paid high wages. Real estate prices aren’t coming down anytime soon.
This is why Ontario's cuts to education isn't so bad, we get all our skilled labour from immigrants anyway. /s?
The issue for Canadian tech workers is salary, and with the ease with which employers can bring in foreign workers this is not likely to adjust upwards much for most in the field.
Wow it’s like nobody in this thread works in The technology industry.
FYI, having a bigger industry of workers creates an ecosystem effect, increases competition for workers, and raises wages, especially of Canadians who are non immigrants in the industry (who have the advantage of knowing the work and the culture).
Wages for Canadians in tech, at least in the epicenters like Toronto, offer a similar standard of living as the same workers in SF have access too. I say this as a Canadian in tech who worked in Toronto prior to working here in SF.
Could I draw a comparison to the restaurant effect? Where multiple eateries in an area will pull in more people than any individual restaurant. Never thought of it in tech company terms, but certainly makes sense.
Canada doesn't even have jobs for its own high-tech workers. Even top grads go heavily underemployed/unemployed in Canada. Its disgusting that Canada would try to import foreigners when our own aren't even being taken care of by the limited sector that exists here.
Canadian corporations win by having a larger worker pool, which equals salary suppression. Simple supply vs demand.
This isn't good for Canada or Canadians. It just means companies can import TFW's and immigrants to work for cheaper labor, leaving actual Canadian citizens fighting for scraps and having to settle for far lower wages.
Anyone with 2 brain cells is always looking to get a job in the States anyways.
so tech salaries are going to go down?
Well, im an Industrial Engineer studying for a Masters in Project Management, hoping to hit the atlantic provinces ate 2021. Wish me luck Canada
Sound like you have a lot of ambition and the work ethic to get you there! Where are you from?
Of course the internet takes this positive headline and fills the comments with complaints
It seems we hate refugees and highly skilled immigrants equally.
It's so true. Ignore all the positives highlight all the delusional negative.
Some insight into what drives massive salaries in the States for devs:
Plenty of companies are moving up here simple because it is significantly cheaper and the Trump administration adding to the fire doesn't help.
This dude wants to discuss SF salaries and is not sure what FAANG stands for.
Economies of scale are a thing. A dev building a product for 100M customers creates massive value. It makes sense big corps can skim the top talent that doesn’t mind the often dysfunctional large corporation culture.
Who cares?
Employers looking for skilled workers?
Canadian workers thinking globalisation doesn't affect their job?
People living in Canadian cities already suffering from undersupply of affordable housing?
This story is very relevant.
Canada, home of USAs rejects since 1812.
Only the CFL.
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Canada's always had a brain drain to the US when it comes to highly skilled technical workers, this just reduces the drain somewhat, not stop it.
"Canada loses less, US wins less" is probably more accurate.
It doesn’t stop the brain drain. TN are still allowed
Unsurprisingly, the nursing sector as well. A lot of my peers got hired in Texas making 60-80k USD and a lower cost of living versus anywhere in Canada. The US private industry just pays better.
Lemme guess, they aren't white, right?
Whenever the U.S. loses to Canada in anything I grow a nice big cocky smirk on my face because I know that Washington pulls it's own hair out in anger whenever they lose against another country in something ;)
Reading the exact same headline, they consider that a win. Stop living in your head.
Still won't stop me from moving to the US in pursuit of a higher salary, or at least finding remote work.