Tuesday and Wednesday General Question and Answer
Ask any general questions you might have
Tuesday and Wednesday General Question and Answer
Speculation post: Thursday edition - March 21, 2019
Unsolicited Advice And Backseat Driving
3255k counting thread
-🎄- 2019 Day 24 Solutions -🎄-
Is anyone running Boston doing anything cool other than running race? I just realized I just plan on going to the expo, walking around town, eating things, and then running the race.
I'm running Boston and would like to get a tattoo the day after. Anyone have recommendations for a walk in tattoo parlor??
Jamaica Pond parkrun on Saturday!
Tracksmith shakeout on Sunday!
Does anyone know a race predictor that includes elevation gain?
Goal race = 50M with 2400m of climbing
Input = 3:05:00 road marathon,
Output = hh:mm:ss predicted finish time for the 50M
It really really depends on the type of gain too and how it is encountered.
I did a 50 miler last year with about 3100m gain, but it was 5x10 mile laps and all the gain and loss was in short bursts so never more than 15-20 minutes running before climbing. Finished in 9h45 iirc (23rd).
I'm a similar fitness level as you and doing a point to point 50 miler in a month, looking at people who did the race last year + the afformemtioned looped 50 and they're an hour - 90 minutes faster at the point to point (20th in the looped race came top 10 in point to point), personally I'm hoping to finish under 8 hours.
I won't vouch for the veracity but you can get output based on your parameters in one or two steps with the following:
I've used it for shorter races and it seemed reasonably accurate.
UK Hillwalkers and fellrunners often use
I'm not sure you can really extrapolate to 50 miles from a marathon. They're totally different beasts. You're going to be able to run the whole time for a marathon, very unlikely you'll be able to run the entire 50 miler.
Is it a trail or road 50 miler? 2400 meters of total climbing, or does it finish 2400 meters higher?
My best guess is somewhere in the 8.5 to 9.5 hour range
Has foam in shoes needing to "rest" been debunked? I'm running a multiple day running challenge in May (Fri: mile, Sat: 10k + 5k, Sun: half marathon) and would like to wear my Vaporfly's on Saturday and Sunday. I remember hearing at some point that the foam needs a rest period, but I can't find hard data either way.
People have worn VF for 50k+ distance races continuously, there's not way you will see any difference after a mile / 9 mile / 13 mile days.
Does any of this make sense? I’m basically running the same volume as 2012 the last time I was this marathon fit, my workouts are only a tiny bit faster but my racing shape is >>>>>>>>>>!!!! Over 2012. For instance I’m 8 min faster in a 30k race. and I expect to be about 10 min or more faster in the marathon.
I sort of understand it to be true but I was fit back then. But I appear to be on a completely different level. As I’m racing in 3 weeks I second guess myself?
This part doesn't really make sense. You should be basing your workouts based on your racing shape, so they shouldn't be that far out of whack.
Volume is just one variable, maybe you're making a lot of other better choices than you were 7 years ago?
Nutrition? Sleeping? Strength? More cumulative mileage under your built? It takes more than a cycle to reach that full marathon potential. I say embrace it, 2012 was a long time ago. Trust your current metrics.
I'm looking for help deciding on pacing for an upcoming half marathon. Any feedback is welcome!
Recent races: the last race I ran was a 10k last June that I did in 49:08. Flat course, but it was almost 90 degrees that day. At that point in time I was running about 20 miles per week and not doing any speed work. My half marathon PR is 1:55ish but that's several years ago and I can go way faster than that now.
Current training: I'm in marathon training right now, so distance is no issue. Currently doing 5 runs per week, 1 long, 1 tempo, 3 easy. Recent workouts include: 18 mile long run at 8:56 pace (probably should have done that one slower, oops), 3 mile tempo run at 7:41 pace, 7 mile tempo run a bit slower than 8 minute pace, and a 14 mile hill run at 9:10 pace (probably should have done that one slower too). My mileage has mostly been in the high 30s and low 40s, with a peak of around 43 miles per week.
Other info: I'm doing a severe taper for this race to hopefully head off a few little niggles from possible over-training (mainly pushing the pace too much on easy runs oops). The race course is mostly flat, with a small hill around mile 8. I've been training in super cold temps, and race day weather is likely somewhere in the 50s or 60s and possibly rainy.
I was thinking about aiming for 1:45. What do you all think??? Thanks!
Historically 6-7 mile tempos have been good HM predictors for me. If you finished that run thinking "omg there's no way I could hold it another 6 miles", it's probably right about your HM pace. If you finished feeling like it wasn't so bad, you can probably race a half a bit faster. I think going out on pace for 1:45 and picking it up with 5K to go if you have gas left in the tank sounds totally reasonable, though. Good luck!!
1:45 sounds about right. It makes it pretty easy for pacing too, just aim for 8:00 miles. All your runs sound pretty familiar to where I was at a year ago.
Resist the urge to go faster if you're feeling good until at least after the halfway point.. ideally you make it to 10 miles, and then you can push it with what you have left.
I think 1:45 is doable. I would pace a 1:45 for the first 8ish miles then adjust accordingly. I'm willing to bet you'd have gas in the tank to go harder the last few.
1:45 sounds reasonable. I'd say go out at 7:50-:55 and hang on as long as possible. Weather temps shouldn't be that much of an issue coming; the rain isn't really that bad as long as you're prepared for it (hat, body glide, etc.).
You'd be surprised what a race environment and fresh legs (as fresh as they've been in months, anyways) will do for your pace. Good luck!
Anyone used Zoom Streak 6s in wet conditions? I'm deciding between those and my tried-and-true NB Zantes for the marathon. I was leaning ZS6, but have never used them in the rain.
Yep - raced Chicago in them last fall. Had some blisters toward the end of the race but I think that was a given with the rain. No issues with traction.
Boston last year in Streak 6s, no shoe complaints whatsoever
Yeah, while not full up raining hard, enough they got fully wet. I don't have strong memories other than " I guess these new shoes are getting wet", so they were fine. I wouldn't be afraid of using them.
Definitely suggest either taking the green line out (the C to Cleveland Circle or the D to Reservoir will both get them the same place, which is around mile 22-23 (right where you're turning onto Beacon). If they want a less crowded area, they could take the D out to Woodland. That would drop them off right by the course before you turn onto Comm Ave (before the Newton Hills).
If they go all the way out to Woodland, they miiiight be able to catch you again closer into town, but the trains do get packed that day with people doing similar things.
I wouldn't waste 26.2 miles of vaporfly (1/8th of their life?) on enjoying the race.
If you're just running it for fun, I would use a regular pair of shoes given the current weather forecast.
Have you worn the Vaporflys before? If you haven't I would save them for another day. They are amazing but, for me at least, they feel very different than my typical shoes (Adidas Boston and Adios) and it took several runs for me to get the feel of them.
Vaporfly owners: does your pair have a noticeable seam that goes around half of the shoe (from the middle of the shoe on one side around the back to the middle of the other side)? There are also a couple very tiny pieces of the foam sticking out here and there on the side.
My coworker was able to invite me to a special 40% off everything Nike event, and I ended up getting some Vaporfly’s for $150 even though I am not nearly fast enough to use them, but I figured I wasn’t going to ever get ones for that price again. They came today, and since I don’t plan on using them for a while, I just want to make sure these little defects are normal.
Edit: Here is picture of what i'm talking about:
Regular pic of the shoe
Pic of shoe with the seam circled on the left and the little piece of foam sticking out circled on the right
Photo? I think that might be where the standard seam is, but not 100% sure.
A couple Boston Marathon questions before my first trip to the big race!
i went in 2017. and they have an adidas both that u can try and purchase jackets and they have tons of them. i wouldnt worry about them selling out
For question 1, I remember the jackets being half off after the race on
Anyone know how difficult it is to navigate round the London Marathon course as a spectator? My good wife is heading over with me next month and is keen to support me and catch the elites. How busy are tubes? Any chance of getting near finish line for a sub 3 finish time (I assume it gets really busy a bit after that). Are there any spots that have a a great atmosphere she would enjoy?
The easiest thing is to choose two spots to watch from, I think friends have found a way to spectate in 3 places before but I'm not sure of their route.
The Cutty Sark is a very popular place to watch from and is VERY busy because it is easy to then get to other places.
For a route (never tried it but it looks possible) you could go Greenwich (mile 7, cutty sark area), Canary Wharf (mile 15), then Westminster (mile 25)
Instead of trying to watch the actual finish line straight, it's better to find a spot from Westminster Tube towards the finish, anywhere in St James park around 25.5-26mi she will have a spot there and easy to get to and easy to meet after in the park.
Get the course map up and go through it on google maps or something before the day.
What’s the best value blender currently on the market to be able to make recovery shakes for 1-2 ppl? Is a Vitamix E310 worth paying up for?
I love my Waring MX1000, it is as powerful as a Vitamix or Blendtec, but without the brand name markup. It is a commercial blender with great power.
I use the Ninja BL480 (bought an extra 24oz cup) for my daily smoothies and recovery shakes. It works just as good as the big Vitamix units (I’ve got one but forget the model and it is awesome) and cleanup is super easy (rinse the blades after blending and then clean the cup after you finish drinking). Right now they go for around $70 so they are fairly cheap.
Before I get into my question I just wanted to say I really appreciate this sub and thanks to those who commented
Here is my convoluted question. I am wanting to continue my speed training for my relay leg here in Northern BC for a 13k and do 8 weeks of JD's 10k training. I have a 50k (ran one 50k before) trail race in September that I want to nail with only 800m of elevation so pretty fast.
How would you approach the training to optimize for the 50k trail (really a hard pack trail)? My thoughts were to essentially do a JD's marathon training and alternate one week on road and one week on the trail for the quality sessions. I am fairly new to longer distances and as such should I just look to extend my mileage to say 80-90km a week instead of the quality to stay healthy?
Congrats on the 5k! Chasing the same goal right now myself. Unfortunately, a lot going on and vacation has derailed my training the last two weeks.
Congrats on the 5k PB!
If you're at ~60 km/week, I think you'll see the biggest improvement across race distances (13k, 10k, 50k) by focusing on steadily building up your volume.
I'd work up to 90 km/week if that's where you think you could realistically maintain, then steady incorporate a quality session back in (10k pace work and/or HM pace work). I'd try to do most of your long runs on the trails, running for time rather than distance if you're following a plan.
Magness training pace clarification question. If a run isn’t labeled as distance run, steady, or recovery, it should be treated as easy? Easy is up to 25% slower than MP according to him. This applies to double days, random 8-10 mi runs, and long runs. Thanks.
PS: anyone have any experiences they want to share with Magness’ 5k or any training plan in the science of running?
I haven't tried following his 5k plan to completely, but I have incorporated some of his 5k specific workouts into my 5k/10k plan. They Are tough but really boosts fitness and the progression of the difficulty worked out very well. They were never crazy hard but you'd have to show up prepared to get through them.
I usually assume no label to be some degree of easy or steady. Go out, feel good the whole way through, don't do anything that will make you tired the next day. Some days, this may be a true "easy" pace, some days it may be a little quicker.
Your first question ties into your second rather well - Magness' plans are examples and not meant to be followed. I think most of them are actually logs from people that he's coached. When he has an extra easy day or something, it isn't because that's the theoretically "correct" workout to have there; it is because his athlete needed it. Similarly, for many of the unlabeled runs, he likely just told them to go out for a "normal" run with the understanding that they chill and not push the pace. The provided plans are just to help you visualize how the different pieces fit together in practice, but I think it's intended that you make a general outline and then fill in the details as you go.
There's a lot of room for craftsmanship in a Magness-type plan. He likes ladders and blended workouts, but feel free to do more homogeneous workouts if that's what you enjoy (or do more ladders/blends, if that's your thing). One of the best things to take from the book is how to think about workout design and how to develop workouts that you enjoy/respond to and target separate adaptations - for example, his from below vs from above vs alternation workout charts. While providing this kind of diverse education is empowering, it can lead to you trying to get too cute or paralysed by over analysis. I'd recommend taking a couple of months to play around with different workouts and develop your own style. Don't just copy the ones from the back of the book (but do experiment with those) - try to come up with your own workouts based on his principles. Alternations can be applied as ladders (or done on trails as a fartlek). Strength circuits can be mixed with hill sprints. Decide what kind of rest you like for your intervals. Programs like Jack Daniels are much more plug-and-play copy and pasting from charts in the book, but you're going to struggle to have a good time if you follow such an approach with Magness. Conversely, if you take the time to experiment and make decisions up front, Magness is much more fun and rewarding as you're designing a highly customized plan for yourself and your own preferences.
For a similar program that goes into more detail on the top-down design of a training cycle, look into Hudson's Run Faster (again, the example plans given in this book are not necessarily meant to be followed exactly). Given that they're both based on the Canova school, I often recommend people read both of them together before designing their plan - Hudson for the general program design and Magness for the detailed workout design.
50 degrees, drizzly, 10-15 MPH winds (cross/headwinds). What would you wear for a marathon?
Singlet&Shorts. If it's supposed to rain harder, I would wear a hat and can pocket it if I get tired of it. I would probably bring my throwaway 99cent gloves for the start and ditch them when I warm up too.
Seconding singlet/shorts. In that kind of weather (PNW bread and butter) I try to minimize clothing since all it does is trap extra moisture. I would probably rock a hat just to keep rain out of my face.
Singlet and shorts.
ARTC singlet and shorts.
Once I get going, that's about the perfect temperature.
Easy, I would wear the blood and scalps of my fallen competitors
I wonder where the Boston megathread is this year?
(But I agree with BowermanSnackClub, 50s and raining is just the right temperature to wear as little as possible. You don't want to carry excess water weight in the rain).
If it really is 50° that's going to be great. If you can keep warm up to the race start (a challenge in the village if it's muddy, windy, and wet again) you should be able to get away with relatively light apparel like
Some things I wish I had last year (Boston):
Clear glasses to deal with the driving rain.
Throwaway shoes for the start since the village was such a muddy mess last year and probably will be again.
if you're flying in, grab an airline blanket and bring it to the village, you will appreciate it.
Get a poncho before sunday (regret from last year) - I spent too much time and money trying to do this last year.
All that considered, my plan is hat + headband (my ears get cold easily), cycling glasses with clearish lenses, waterproof lightweight running jacket, gloves, shorts. If it's looking like it's going to be warmer I may swap the jacket for a singlet or long sleeve depending on how much warmer or if it's going to be on the dry side. Last year I was in a singlet, shorts, and sleeves and I was miserable by the halfway point.
Singlet, half tights (or shorts and body glide if you must), socks, shoes. Don't overthink it.
So I started Phase III of Daniels' half-marathon plan yesterday, and I gotta say, back-to-back quality workouts seemed motivating when I was fitting the plan to my mileage rather than now, when it's just intimidating off the back of a very rough first H workout. So two questions:
For most people, I think that the physiological effects are modified, too. Canova includes "special block" days which include two hard workouts on a single day. The idea is to be fatigued going into the second one and thus help to simulate running at pace at the end of a hard race. Running hard workouts on back-to-back days would probably be a similar effect, especially for non-elite runners who won't recover as quickly between sessions.
2. JD's philosophy would be that you should have something left in the tank at the end of your workouts. That being said, I sessions are the focus of his philosophy in many ways, so it might be expected that they are a little harder than the others. You probably shouldn't be dead, but you should probably expect to be more tired than after R or T workouts.
Have had two weeks of frustration and wonky running until I finally realized my left glute is not firing. It was putting more stress on my piriformis, which is where I felt the pain. I have looked up a lot of exercises and am already seeing progress but I still wanted to ask some runners: So any surefire glute activation drills? Also, do you do them before every run?
I do banded monster walks/side steps for the lil glute muscles, some bodyweight squats with a focus on flexing the buns as I come out of the hole, and two-legged and one-legged glute bridges before my runs. I do no more than 10 of each--typically just enough reps until I feel my buns actually working a bit.
yes! The one that works best for me is to sit on the floor, elevate your legs in front of you and "walk" across the floor with your glutes (this is from Dicharry's book Running Rewired). I only do them once a week these days.
So for the past few months I've had inconsistent training due to various health issues, but I should be done with them following surgery last week. I have to take 1.5-2 weeks off then I can restart building a base. Last year I peaked at 50 mpw. This year it's been more like ~20 mpw.
Would you go for frequency or longer runs when building back up weekly mileage?
May I ask why your first schedule has two consecutive days off? Unless other obligations get in the way, I’d definitely recommend taking non consecutive days off if you plan on running 5 days a week.
Frequency. It will help you get back into rhythm, and less overall stress than the longer runs.
Frequency works way better for me. It can be slightly annoying because going out for 3km runs may feel like it's not worth the time to change - run - shower&change but my body just feels more resilient when I run almost every day (5 or 6 days/week).
I would personally go for frequency when building back up. Seems a easier way to build back while limiting injury risk. Longer runs less frequently will stress your body more.
A classic question:
I ran 38:35 last September as a tune-up for my 1:25:24
Since then, I ran 56 mpw for 7 weeks with occasional races and club workouts, ending with an 18:24 parkrun on December 4th, and then started my current training block. If anyone wants to look, my training is
Closest guess gets a prize! respect!
After all those hills you're going to be flying on the flat.
37:30 would be a good aggressive goal for you. I think you can go out at 6 flat pace and hold on after your training cycles.
37:29! You're going to fly on the flats.
Are you tapering for this race? I think your 10k from September was great and will be hard to beat, you maybe could get a 38min dead if you are going all out! I'm no expert, this is based on guesses/estimates using vdot. Your vdot has not really changed but you do seem to be better at shorter races. Your leg strength should help in the future but i think you need a few weeks of race specifics to apply it.
I'll lay money (or fake internet points) on 37:45.
Congrats to hogs_of_war for winning the march madness bracket! I don’t know who you are so PM me to collect your prize.
Hey, that's me! Just sent a PM.
Not a question, but for those of you who love your marathon plans:
Nate Jenkins on Canova versus Pete Pfitzinger 12/70 from the first edition.
My biggest complaint is that Nate focused on the 12 week plan and used the first edition from Pete. This means that when he compares the amount of MP miles in the plans, Pfitz basically has a 20 w/
in the taper which simply isn't accurate for the second edition 18 week plans.
The other thing I'd like to draw attention to is how he talks about how unavailable Canova is to the average runner and how you can adopt a Pfitz schedule with Canova style workouts.
I read this post a few months ago and really do not like the comparison between the plans. Super apples to oranges imo. Canova and Pfitz are targeting 2 very different types of athletes. Most people who use Pfitz plans are usually just looking for a BQ and will get faster by consistently running more with some workouts thrown in. Canova is trying to squeeze out that very last bit of potential from elite athletes (someone trying to go from like 2:10 to 2:08).
Tore my left anterior talofibular ligament (ankle) a couple weeks back and struggling to maintain an optimistic outlook. I'm still scheduled for Beantown, with a prognosis to get back to light running in early May. Has anyone dealt with a similar injury and come out of it all cylinders firing? What can I do to maintain/gain strength and minimize the impact of the lost training time?
I tore my calcaneofibular ligament about 2 years ago. Actually, I didn't tear the ligament so much as yanked off a chunk of bone where it was attached to my fibula. I think I was much worse off since I was in a boot for a long time.
The good news is that, once I got back to running, I was fine. It hasn't caused me any trouble since. Did lots of PT, though.
How is that going to work? Isn't Boston in April?
For those of you who get massages, how far out do you schedule them from a race? I'm thinking do a final workout then massage tomorrow, race on Saturday (two easy days with strides in between).
Sounds good. Can take about 3 days depending on how hard it is/the last time you had one. I usually get on on a Wed/Thurs before a Sunday race.